Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

392: Corporate Relationship Counselor

Spending Casey’s money, driving stick, and the continuing battle between Epic and Apple.

Episode Description:

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MP3 Header


  1. 🔦 💸
  2. Hi. This is Marco Arment. 🖼️
  3. Sponsor:
  4. Big rumor dump already wrong
  5. Apologies to Socrates
  6. Big Sur touchability
  7. John’s rubber problem
  8. Sponsor: Raycon
  9. Epic v. Apple, continued
  10. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  12. #askatp: Identifying monitors
  13. #askatp: Design by programmer
  14. #askatp: Switch from Windows
  15. Ending theme
  16. #askneutral: Driving stick

🔦 💸

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’ve made a couple of just absolutely terrible errors i have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey asked mark arment for advice on things to buy related

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to absolutely nothing at all you know a member at p membership is a thing if you wanted to go to a t do shine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you could join to and be a member of this very pro

⏹️ ▶️ John is recommending relatively inexpensive things now though right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in my defense the most expensive pair of headphones i recommended was only seven hundred dollars

⏹️ ▶️ John oh the head i thought you were talking about the flashlight too was

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco asking about the both the

⏹️ ▶️ John case case he was asking about the flashlights

⏹️ ▶️ Casey too i’ve brought this on myself i have made this bad this is not really marcos

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John all

⏹️ ▶️ John just ignore his headphone advice when he tries to get you buy a thousand dollar phone you can just ignore that go to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the next none of them were a thousand dollars and i recommended one that was like a hundred and eighty and one that was like three hundred

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one was eight ninety nine or something no i said that that’s what i used but i wasn’t saying he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should buy it it’s a different kind than what he wants

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just i’ve known marco for twenty twenty five years something like that at this point maybe more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that yeah maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but anyways you would think well i guess the first fifteen of those years didn’t count he had money

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco but exactly i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think in the last ten years i would know better than to ask marco for advice and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in marco’s defense both of these times i specifically solicited the advice i have not pulled

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any we well i shouldn’t use that phrase turn of phrase i have not made any moves on on either of these items

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but i did put a seventy dollar flashlight which if i recall put in the show notes i put a seventy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dollar flashlight quietly into the amazon shopping cart and within

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a day aaron said to me what is the seventy dollars less why do you think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you need it i

⏹️ ▶️ John hope none of the product photos have like a person’s hand for scale because that’s not going to help your case

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s really not it’s like next to a quarter it’s like wait what is this the doll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John they’re they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way

⏹️ ▶️ John smaller than you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think they’re oh my word anyway you would think after all this time i would know better than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to ask marco for help because the problem with asking marco for help when it comes to purchases is that you will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be spending considerably more money than you would like to spend

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well do you want something good it’s like people come to me and they’re like what should i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy that’s good and then i tell them and they’re like that’s a lot of money yeah cause it’s good

⏹️ ▶️ John here there’s a discontinuity or at least an area of the graph where the two lines

⏹️ ▶️ John diverge and do not do not act the same rate and very often your recommendations

⏹️ ▶️ John are past that point i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wouldn’t say very often the problem though is that it is often it is often if not nearly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey always that the thing that marco suggests is very very

⏹️ ▶️ John good is better but you know the it was like quality and price were tracking pretty nicely

⏹️ ▶️ John with each other with a similar slope and then at a certain

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey point price starts going

⏹️ ▶️ John up a little bit steeper and then you just follow that graph out to the right for a while and all of a sudden you’re like well it is better

⏹️ ▶️ John like my mac pro basically

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s where i’m at so yeah right yeah like you can talk

⏹️ ▶️ John once every ten years i buy something like marko

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how often do you buy a flashlight or a pair of headphones not that often fair

⏹️ ▶️ Casey enough yeah i solicited this advice because um it’s a long and involved story that i will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cut down as much as possible basically there’s an old trade train tunnel that is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey being turned into a rail trail park thing and by giving by donating

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a very small amount of money i have gotten the the perk of being allowed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to tor it before it opens presumably this fall and this train tunnel i mean it’s something like a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mile long and it’s pitch black in there and i have flashlights but i have crappy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like ten or twenty dollar flashlights i don’t have something that would illuminate a mile long train tunnel and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this flashlight will not well might but probably won’t illuminate a mile long train tunnel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not made for long throw it’s made for wide illumination of where you are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which actually is probably better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can get some that are made for like super long throw but then they have like a narrower beam sure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so i ask as marco hey you know i need something that’ll last me something like you know an hour and a half and that’ll be pretty damn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bright what he you got and so he recommended and we will put in the show notes the olight sr two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eleven fifty lumens usb magnetic rechargeable variable output sides

⏹️ ▶️ Marco olight s two r baton two is that what i said you said s r two which sounds like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a car

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sr seventy one right it’s not a car

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a flashlight he was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey thinking art

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so but the funny thing is i wanted i wanted to see an example of it in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use and marco very graciously said he would record a video and did end up recording a video of it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at night time and it was very impressive that will not be in the show notes but i you know did a youtube

⏹️ ▶️ Casey search to see like an example of this in action and of course do you remember the name of the dig it up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the name of the channel i ended up on it was like sensible prepper or something like that as in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like doomsday prepper and i realized oh this is not good this is not good for me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well there’s there’s the problem with researching any kind of like you know now let me get a nice flashlight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco flashlights are part of the quote every day carry community and that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very quickly leads you to guns and gun people and i just have i want nothing to do with that side of it and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s really hard to get good opinions and reviews of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything that even goes near the everyday carry type category of like useful little gear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things to have that may be fit in the back and it’s like you so quickly fall into like a crazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rabbit hole of communities and priorities that you don’t have and don’t want to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s so true

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but but he’s a sensible prepper so it’s okay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah right yeah yeah that’s like

Hi. This is Marco Arment.

Chapter Hi. This is Marco Arment. image.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i have a big apology to make we have gotten

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much feedback way more than i expected on an audio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem in last week’s show indeed last week they there were some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i believe cicadas is that right john

⏹️ ▶️ John never found him but yeah some kind of critter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah some kind of you know august bugs it sounded like you know sakata bug noise on parts of john’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco track and i noticed this during the edit and normally i’d be able to remove such a noise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco during the edit and nobody would ever know this time i tried a couple of ways to remove it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my usual techniques to do it and i just couldn’t get it out without like totally crushing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rest of his high frequency audio and making him sound very weird and so i thought you know what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it won’t be that big of a deal let me just leave it in maybe nobody will notice everybody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notice we’re still getting messages on twitter by email saying like hey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s some kind of noise something wrong with the recording and john track people saying it was really hard to listen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to that they thought something was wrong with their car and so i am so sorry

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i later edited i later re edited the file and so if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco re downloaded it after a certain point you would have gotten the edited version that didn’t have the arcade

⏹️ ▶️ Marco noise basically after the first few hours of it being out some people recommended some different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco techniques what i ended up doing was basically a bandpass

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but notching out like only like the seven to eight thousand ish frequency

⏹️ ▶️ Marco range that these bugs were in it was a method that was working better than what i was doing before so anyway

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the fixed version is out and i greatly apologize the funny thing is i was actually really nervous that people would notice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an audio problem last week because i was using a new microphone for the first time in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably four years oh i didn’t notice no one thank god i think i was kind of hoping

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nobody would like have a problem with it or it wouldn’t be a big shift for anybody but it mattered

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot to me to get this right and we got zero people noticing that because everybody was nosing these very loud

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bug noise on john’s track and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco answer some

⏹️ ▶️ John questions from the chat room and elsewhere yes i mean literal insects during literal living

⏹️ ▶️ John insect creatures outside my house somewhere making noise and yes i have all

⏹️ ▶️ John my windows closed and no this is not normal the reason i suspect cicadas is because i think in my area it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a cicada season like i pretty much never see cicadas round here we found a couple of dead ones on the sidewalk

⏹️ ▶️ John and our travels over the past couple of weeks so i think this is you know anomalous like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s unexpected for us to have any bugs that make this level of noise and further unexpected for them

⏹️ ▶️ John to be so loud that you know despite being closed into my little podcasting sarcophagus here

⏹️ ▶️ John with all the windows closed and no air conditioning on and everything all sealed up still they were so

⏹️ ▶️ John loud they were just coming through the windows and walls of this building into into

⏹️ ▶️ John my microphone that should only be picking up like my voice from six inches away oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah right you have the world’s most sensitive microphone just you have a large diaphragm

⏹️ ▶️ Marco condenser like that should pick up everything in the universe and for some reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every other week it doesn’t every other week your audio is perfect and i have no idea how cause that kind of microphone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i can’t get to work right in my room

⏹️ ▶️ John because i’m in a room with like carpeting and a book shelf and weird shaped walls and there’s lots of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John to absorb the sound but you know i mean yes it does pick up a lot but when i get far away from the mic it gets quieter right so

⏹️ ▶️ John this bug like it was loud for a bug but still it’s outside and all the windows are closed and

⏹️ ▶️ John so it’s not valid i’m amazed i’m kind of amazed that it showed up on the track at all but obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John it did yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so anyway my apologies to everybody i will be a little more aggressive in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco future about trying to remove things like that that i think nobody will notice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we are sponsored today by hay dot com email should not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be overwhelming email has been broken for a long time but hay dot com

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fixes it so for one thing you screen your calls so why don’t you screen your emails when you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get an email from a new center it ends up in the screener in hay hum thumbs up and they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco led in thumbs down and you’ll never hear from them again you can also if you want people to skip that process

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can give them your speak easy code and they’re allowed in instantly like a club and privacy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is super important to hay hay is not an email client it’s a full on service provider

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco marketers and salespeople are spying on you all the time trying to see when and where

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco privacy info not only does hay block these spy trackers but they’ll even notify you

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Big rumor dump already wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mac rumors not the website just the rumors about macintosh s apparently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey today is the day and as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey record this at nine o’clock in the evening on august nineteenth it i guess you know west

⏹️ ▶️ Casey coast is always a little behind and so maybe something will happen but we were told

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at some point recently that we would get a new imac neuro pod studio new homepod two new homepod mini

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have any of those things happened gentlemen

⏹️ ▶️ John we got a new imac but not on august nineteenth and yet i just wanted to swat this down i don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John to attribute to any source like whatever because we we talked about it on the

⏹️ ▶️ John on whatever that show was like a couple a couple of episodes ago just because it was such a huge

⏹️ ▶️ John dump of rumor info it’s like wow someone’s really laying it all on the line with all these announcements and dates

⏹️ ▶️ John and now i think we can just ignore it forever because august nineteenth has come and gone and these things didn’t happen and even though the mac

⏹️ ▶️ John did happen it didn’t happen on august nineteenth so so much for the nose dramas like

⏹️ ▶️ John prediction filled with dates

Apologies to Socrates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then would you like to add a clarification about the thing you were trying to quote last week

⏹️ ▶️ John this is the reason i think people should listen to our podcast because we’re the only podcast in which

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the hosts will try to cite a half remembered saying from a shareware

⏹️ ▶️ John website that has really comes from something in ancient history that i couldn’t even remember and then a listener will write in

⏹️ ▶️ John to tell us i know which saying you were talking about and also turns

⏹️ ▶️ John out as they say the popular notion of the saying is a mistranslation

⏹️ ▶️ John so here we go this nate mavis who says the quote you are reaching for is from socrates not aristotle

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s from apology thirty b i have no

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey idea about

⏹️ ▶️ John how classics work apology thirty b that they like number and letter anyway that’s a thing

⏹️ ▶️ John you have contributed as some ancient scholars have being virtuous will lead to wealth and other good things this

⏹️ ▶️ John was me talking about like apple should concentrate on just trying to make good stuff and and then they’ll be successful because of that instead

⏹️ ▶️ John of the other way around right says but that’s an incorrect translation socrates says rather

⏹️ ▶️ John that virtue makes wealth good not virtue will make wealth and other good things for you

⏹️ ▶️ John think of what you tell a kid playing against cheaters if you cheat to win winning isn’t good playing by

⏹️ ▶️ John the rules virtuously is what makes winning good so m f burned proposes since his interpretation

⏹️ ▶️ John in a paper from twenty twelve which we were linked in the show notes and no other tech podcast will

⏹️ ▶️ John and and nate says i spent the trunk of my dissertation defending it in detail and now i’m in

⏹️ ▶️ John software i leave it up to you which interpretation is more relevant to apple situation today so there you go i meant the

⏹️ ▶️ John first sense that being virtuous will lead to wealth and other good things but the other

⏹️ ▶️ John perhaps more correct interpretation is also applicable i think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is actually very interesting and i agree you will not hear anyone else to talk about that

Big Sur touchability

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh my goodness so there was some hubbub in the last day or two and i saw that this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey video existed but i didn’t get a chance to watch apparently somebody has dropped a big served

⏹️ ▶️ Casey onto a lenovo touch screen enabled i presume think pad but a lenovo laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the touch screen worked question mark what’s going on here

⏹️ ▶️ John so first of all it may surprise i have no idea if this video is real um but if it is real the like

⏹️ ▶️ John the pitch of the videos of course if a touch in laugh at the ark and you touch it like maybe you would just interpret that in mouth

⏹️ ▶️ John as mouse movement or mouse clicking and then you know why wouldn’t it work but if you watch the video the whole point is that

⏹️ ▶️ John the person in the video performs gestures like pinch to zoom and like the maps application

⏹️ ▶️ John in macau and the gestures work and in the big served on his laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John again i have no idea if it’s real or not the reason i included here will put a link to the videos just so you can see

⏹️ ▶️ John what it might look like for for you know what in what context

⏹️ ▶️ John might touch be useful on a mac with a touch screen because whether it’s real or not you can

⏹️ ▶️ John see someone using a laptop with macaws on it with real macaws absent occasionally pawing at the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John now the performance and responsiveness seems atrocious it’s almost like is it working is it not working and you

⏹️ ▶️ John see it’s kind of working so it’s it looks really terrible but a it’s it’s on lenovo who knows what

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of support this is b it might not even be real and c it’s a bath so i thought it was mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John a curiosity but it’s interesting to see like one of the first videos in the wild showing real presumably

⏹️ ▶️ John real hardware and real software ah showing someone touching a mack in the screen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey additionally there’s some changes with regard to the menubar icon spacing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i can never remember what these things in the upper right re called

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John what is the menu menu

⏹️ ▶️ John extras menubar icons i think manufacturers is what apple calls them or what they used to

⏹️ ▶️ John be called under the covers anyway we talked about this when we talked about big sur that yes they’re you know all the different things being spaced

⏹️ ▶️ John out for touch right and we mentioned the men this is not a new feature the very first big survey had this in it but here is ricardo

⏹️ ▶️ John mari on twitter complaining about the new spacing not because you know

⏹️ ▶️ John necessarily he minds that it’s like spread out so it’s easy for your fingers to touch but now they take up

⏹️ ▶️ John more room and so here’s a little screen shot you can see in his tweet where he says my icons used to take up about this amount

⏹️ ▶️ John of room but now that they all have a huge amount of white space between them on a thirteen inch laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John like the icons take up like more than half of the menu bar and so if you have a nap with a lot of menus they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to clash in the middle and your icons are going to get hidden and it’s inconvenient so this is this is the downside to

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of spreading macos out for finger spacing or whatever whatever is there on whether

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re doing for finger spacing out bottom line is they’re praises out there’s all the new age controls the menu bar can be enlarged

⏹️ ▶️ John the menu icons are spread out from each other and if you have a laptop with a small screen suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ John it feels even smaller because there’s all this extra white space between things so it would be kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John neat to have an option to sort of collapse that space thing if you don’t have a touchscreen mac or

⏹️ ▶️ John if you just you know don’t plan on touching you menubar icons but somehow i don’t see that option

⏹️ ▶️ John forthcoming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah it’s so hard not to conclude that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey touch is coming to macos because it seems like so many of these changes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are curious if not dumb if if that wasn’t the end goal and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey typically apple does quietly orchestrate their future plans you know things like auto layout

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a great example you know it used to be that apple didn’t care if you laid everything out you know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by the pixel or point and then they started saying before we got bigger phones you know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you might want to think about like a relative layout where you’re where you’re anchoring things to other things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that might be a good call and then fast forward a few months and suddenly we had bigger iphones and so it it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey certainly seems that that we’re getting touch green max or some sort of alternate input mechanism

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if not touch but i don’t know if not this seems like such a weird

⏹️ ▶️ Casey choice to just add all this white space everywhere

John’s rubber problem

⏹️ ▶️ Casey finally john you are having problems with your robbers

⏹️ ▶️ John yes

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yeah this

⏹️ ▶️ John is i spent all that time and we talked about it on the show i don’t know six months ago or something

⏹️ ▶️ John picking out a mouse trying a bunch of mine seeing which i felt comfortable because i wanted a new

⏹️ ▶️ John one with my fancy new computer when i got my mac pro i was using an ancient mouse and it was just not great ah and i

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually settled on the microsoft precision mouse which you know had some trade off out of all the ones i tried

⏹️ ▶️ John was the one i liked the best i even after that i’d used it for like a month or so i even considered doing the cheese

⏹️ ▶️ John greater thing the actual physical thing that grates cheese from a can and

⏹️ ▶️ John buying multiples right because i’m like well i like this mouse i found a mouse that i like that took a lot of you know

⏹️ ▶️ John but dose if i can find i but i found one i like so why don’t you know maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll stop making this one or maybe they’ll change it in a way i don’t like maybe i should buy multiples but i didn’t because i

⏹️ ▶️ John figured well i don’t know i used the last mouse for like fifteen years or something i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John you know i’m not going to wear i don’t need to buy a new one like fifteen years go by i need to get another mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John i’ll do the research again but now for a little while i felt like there was like some kind of schmitz

⏹️ ▶️ John or something on the side of my mouth and occasionally i would like scrape it with my finger now to like the schmutz off of there and i would like

⏹️ ▶️ John go away with it but eventually i felt some of this thing under my thumb under my you know my left thumb gripping the

⏹️ ▶️ John mouse and i tried smoothing it away and it didn’t really go away and so then i said let me pick this let me look at it

⏹️ ▶️ John i looked at the mouse and it wasn’t shot the side of this microsoft mouse the entire like left

⏹️ ▶️ John side and the right side for that matter is like rubber coated it’s like plas the whole mouse is plastic but it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John rubber coated plastic on the sides for grip which i like it’s very comfortable and it’s a very smooth rubber

⏹️ ▶️ John but it is apparently so soft and smooth in velvety that the

⏹️ ▶️ John act of me just using my mouse and having my left thumb in like that same position on the side of the mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John you know how i use it i’m a side mouse gripper kind of person has worn

⏹️ ▶️ John hasn’t worn it away but has worn a little like first it’s like a little bit of a slightly shinier

⏹️ ▶️ John smooth spot and then there’s like a little lip that i’m it’s not a lip it’s not the edges it’s the center

⏹️ ▶️ John of the rubber and i have just made like a little rough patch with my thumb and i’m like oh no i haven’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John had this mouse that long this is not going to last fifteen years so i don’t know what i’m going to do about this i mean the

⏹️ ▶️ John mouse is fine and if now that i just know that’s what it is i don’t pick at it right it’s not like i’ve worn through

⏹️ ▶️ John it in a hole and it’s not like it’s peeling off it’s just a little bit worn in that area if it would wear

⏹️ ▶️ John evenly you know like a baseball glove or something just kind of wear down and get a patina that would

⏹️ ▶️ John be fine but when it wears so that it has like a little a little flaky kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John rough bit i don’t really like that so i don’t know what i’m going to about this but i just wanted update everybody on my mouse woes

⏹️ ▶️ John that apparently buying five different mice and trying them each for weeks was insufficient

⏹️ ▶️ John and this is the thing with i think about this with product reviews all the time if you’re doing a product

⏹️ ▶️ John review for a product of your website or even just for yourself and your life it’s very difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John to know conclusively what is a good product from just using it for like a couple of weeks especially

⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s something that you intend to keep for a long time right like say it he’s greater for your kitchen

⏹️ ▶️ John that kind i love to say that every time now

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco i mean i can’t cause i want you to

⏹️ ▶️ John know anyway if you buy it you grade a bunch of cheese you do timing test you like this was the easiest

⏹️ ▶️ John we got the least tired doing and it made the even event you know gratings whatever it was

⏹️ ▶️ John machine washable and it was like all all this you know just washer safe rather um you say all these things

⏹️ ▶️ John about it like this is the one and then you publish that article and then you know you go off and forget

⏹️ ▶️ John about it as one of your employees takes home the cheese grater and then six months later it breaks i

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like you have to go back to the article and say don’t buy the cheese grater breaks in six months right it’s not the best one

⏹️ ▶️ John yet it had the best performance when it was working like a like cases p m w yeah it’s good when it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John working if it dies all the time it’s not actually the best choice so

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m i’m disappointed in my microsoft mouse i did some googling and i found someone with the

⏹️ ▶️ John exact complaint ah for a microsoft mouse saying i used it for a little while and it wore in the exact

⏹️ ▶️ John same spot but it’s not actually my mouse it’s an earlier microsoft mouse with rubber stuff on the side i think they

⏹️ ▶️ John just use very soft touch rubber for it to be like expensive feeling and nice and it is expensive feeling and

⏹️ ▶️ John nice but i think that soft touch rubber is not particularly durable so

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s not like you can replace the rubber on the side or anything so i don’t know what i’m going to do i like this mouse enough that i would

⏹️ ▶️ John probably just like buy a new one every couple of years if after a couple of years it becomes

⏹️ ▶️ John dire but yeah so hard to find good mice these days

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Epic v. Apple, continued

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the drama continues actually if you give me about ninety seconds i need to go pop some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more popcorn epic an apple still killing each other where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did we leave all where where were our intrepid heroes the last we spoke i don’t even remember it’s been such a blur

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of anger

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was basically the very first night that this had come out and they had sued apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and google im right but nothing else had really happened yet

⏹️ ▶️ John a fortnight had been taken down from the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco store but

⏹️ ▶️ John if you still had it installed it was fine and that’s all that had happened there had been the lawsuits there had been the video release

⏹️ ▶️ John fortnight was off the store but if you still had it you could still play it right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ John there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John were there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was a bunch of contacts that we didn’t actually have time to get to and we’ll probably go into it shortly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here but yes so casey sorry what’s what’s new this week

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so i may leave something out but as best i understand what’s new this week is that uh you know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like we said fortnight is removed from the app store and apple has told epic that they have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey until a week from friday so the twenty eighth to basically cut the shit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out and start acting nice again and if they don’t apparently their entire

⏹️ ▶️ Casey development account their developer account will be taken away which means they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey won’t be able to use xcode well they won’t be able to do anything really with exco they won’t be able to do anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with any apple platforms and that would be a pretty serious bummer and i’m still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not clear whether or not there would be a trickle effect on the unreal engine which we can talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little bit more what that is in a moment but this is the as i think gruber has described

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it and or maybe it was jason snell the nuclear option that you know this is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apple saying you can go outside and play hide and go screw yourself option and so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s what apple’s done and there’s been you know there’s been a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of all of the talking heads like us going round and round and round about what makes sense what’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fair what’s not fair and i think there’s a lot more to talk about about this case

⏹️ ▶️ Casey specifically but god helped me for the first time i think in my entire life i actually sat down earlier tonight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and tried to do like a poor man’s mind map to try to figure out what is really going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on here because i feel like there are maybe five different arguments

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are all happening at the same time and are all interrelated about you know whether or not thirty percent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is fair whether or not apple view is fair whether or not apple is being retaliatory baby and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so on and i was going to try to force us to pick these apart one by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one and i just don’t think we’ll be able to do it because they so are so intertwined but something i think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s been very difficult for me is picking apart and separating these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey different concerns and and maybe we’ll try to do that just try to keep

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an eye on that as we as we discuss further i don’t know that’s kind of the executive summary

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where would you gentlemen like to go from here john do you have immediate thoughts

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah like i think before we start talking about the other stuff we’ll just talk about the threatened punishment right

⏹️ ▶️ John so the apple said was it were they going to terminate their developer account um and so i mean the

⏹️ ▶️ John first question may be is there anything that apple do in the answer of course before you even look it up your nose yes because all those terms

⏹️ ▶️ John and conditions that everybody just clicks through and every service that you ever click through terms and conditions on i guarantee you they

⏹️ ▶️ John all say we can do whatever we want and you have no recourse like that’s what they all say um and you agree

⏹️ ▶️ John to that because what are you going to do not agree i mean you could not agree and not be a developer right but like

⏹️ ▶️ John most companies are able to put language in all their agreements for all their sort of third party you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to do stuff on our platform that basically says if you if we don’t like what you do or even if we do

⏹️ ▶️ John like for any reason we can just wake up in the morning and decide you know what we don’t like you today we can take away all

⏹️ ▶️ John your things because that’s just the nature of the agreement apple’s got the things you want access to those things this is the agreement right

⏹️ ▶️ John so yes the agreement says they can do this and then any agreement says this is what it means if we do this if we terminate your account

⏹️ ▶️ John and you will lose access to the following programs technologies and capabilities um obviously in these legal

⏹️ ▶️ John agreements very often terms are defined elsewhere so you have to kind of look up what they mean so this

⏹️ ▶️ John first thing that i’m going to read is going to sound bad but i’m sure it’s defined elsewhere to be not as broad as

⏹️ ▶️ John you think so you will lose access to the following all apple software comma

⏹️ ▶️ John now obviously you’re not losing access to all apple software because that would mean like you’d go into

⏹️ ▶️ John the apple store to try to buy an iphone they’d be like are you tim sweeney get out of here his access or they’d

⏹️ ▶️ John give you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey an iphone with no

⏹️ ▶️ John software

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey on it

⏹️ ▶️ John like you can’t have this iphone

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey but no software

⏹️ ▶️ John for you right away all the sentences differently it’s all apple software comma

⏹️ ▶️ John sdks comma a p i s comma and developer tools now i think that maybe just poorly written or apple software is a

⏹️ ▶️ John term to find elsewhere though the s is not capital so anyway you don’t get to use the developer tools and stuff i’m skipping

⏹️ ▶️ John over a bunch of stuff just to get to the meat stuff um one of the things you lose access to is the notarization

⏹️ ▶️ John service for macos as i remember it’s not like you have an ios developer account

⏹️ ▶️ John and a macos developer account and tvs developer account although at various times there have been

⏹️ ▶️ John distinctions related to platforms you essentially have a developer account a developer

⏹️ ▶️ John account is a thing that puts aps on the stores now companies can have multiple developer accounts i imagine depending on how

⏹️ ▶️ John many legal entities they have and will get all into that in a second but anyway they have a developer account right

⏹️ ▶️ John so this agreement is not specific to saying you know if you get a developer account you can

⏹️ ▶️ John make any kind of apps you know marco can make a backup i can make an i s up like from our own single

⏹️ ▶️ John developer count if we want it’s not limited by platforms so when they terminate the agreement of course it’s going to say we

⏹️ ▶️ John terminate your access to the notarization service you can’t make notarized apps because you don’t have a developer account

⏹️ ▶️ John right and it seems weird because we’re talking about an ios app you know fortnight and

⏹️ ▶️ John i s and ipad os right but now you’re losing access to macos things like you

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t notarize a macos app like you weren’t even mad at us about a maca right we’re talking about it doesn’t matter this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the developer agreement you lose access to developer id signing certificates

⏹️ ▶️ John so not only can you not notarize an ap which is like sort of giving it the apple stamp of approval by sending

⏹️ ▶️ John it out to apple and then they sign it and send it back you can’t even sign it yourself with your own developer id certificate

⏹️ ▶️ John there ideas where the developer can to sign an application and give it to somebody and it’ll run even though

⏹️ ▶️ John apple hasn’t signed off on it right um you lose access to the

⏹️ ▶️ John universal app quick start program which is a thing that gives you the d t so if you’ve got a d d k you have to send it back to us

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t have that any more and then finally this is a little extra fu for

⏹️ ▶️ John epic you lose access to engineering efforts to improve hardware and

⏹️ ▶️ John software performance of unreal engine on mac and ios hardware so what apple is saying is up

⏹️ ▶️ John until now we here at apple have worked on our stuff unlike our os

⏹️ ▶️ John and our three engines and our drivers and all that stuff or three you know driver

⏹️ ▶️ John software and everything so that it performs well with unreal engine because unreal engine which we’ll talk about in a

⏹️ ▶️ John little bit is a very popular engine for three applications on many platforms and it has been important for

⏹️ ▶️ John apple for unreal engine based software to run well on mac and iowa

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware so what apple is saying is not only are we going to terminate all this stuff and not give you access to any

⏹️ ▶️ John of our dev tools or anything also we’re going to stop making sure that unreal engine

⏹️ ▶️ John runs really well on our products which i mean on the one hand it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John well most people don’t get that kind of service from apple where you make some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco third

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey party library

⏹️ ▶️ John and then apple spends its own resources making sure that your library runs really fast on their hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John but duchess goes to show the nature of unreal engine and what case he was getting at before

⏹️ ▶️ John is like okay given all this this is this is the agreement they take away all this stuff what does that actually mean

⏹️ ▶️ John aside from like fortnight’s not in the ap store anymore does it mean for example that other applications

⏹️ ▶️ John that use unreal engine are going to have problems and you know briefly unreal engine is a three d engine

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can license from unreal from epic um and used it to build the game

⏹️ ▶️ John on because the engines are really hard to make and epic epics on real engine has been really good for many many years

⏹️ ▶️ John comes all sorts of stuff comes with an entire development environment for you to make your game it’s how a

⏹️ ▶️ John single person developer shop can make a good looking three the game they that single person is not writing the three

⏹️ ▶️ John engine from scratch they’re licensing an engine and then building a game on top of it and it gives you much more than just three the

⏹️ ▶️ John engine gives you physics and scripting and like i said an entire id it’s a very complicated big thing um

⏹️ ▶️ John and the unreal engine action has really nice licensing terms where i think it’s like free to use until your

⏹️ ▶️ John game makes over a million in revenue and then after that the epoch ts like three percent of your revenue or something

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s used all over the place it’s used on consoles it’s used on pc games and it’s used in iowa’s games and mac

⏹️ ▶️ John games you know the whole nine yards right so on the app store now are many

⏹️ ▶️ John many games that are built on unreal engine does this happening to epoch like them their

⏹️ ▶️ John developer account being terminated does that mean that anything bad happens to

⏹️ ▶️ John applications not made by epic but that happen to use unreal engine this

⏹️ ▶️ John short answer is like immediately no like so they they terminated epochs account to those games all

⏹️ ▶️ John break no they’re all fine but the medium to long term answer is that

⏹️ ▶️ John if if you would imagine that this developer count is the only way that epic has to

⏹️ ▶️ John continue development of unreal engine on apple’s platforms eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John apple to release an os where the unreal engine and or the tools stop working or

⏹️ ▶️ John have show stopping bugs in them and the game developers would be like oh i need to update my

⏹️ ▶️ John game for the new whatever os i’ll need the new version of unreal that works with the new whatever as

⏹️ ▶️ John an epic would say sorry we can’t actually make a new version of the unreal engine for whatever because

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever is an apple os and we literally can’t build anything for apples we don’t have access to the dev

⏹️ ▶️ John tools if you take a very narrow reading yeah that’s the thing that could happen but

⏹️ ▶️ John in reality all right so you terminated apple terminated this developer account

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s kind of a game of whack a mold say okay well what if epic just makes another developer again we notice

⏹️ ▶️ John they use the same legal entity okay well what if epic’s parent company was it ten cents or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John makes has another shell company and they get a developer account and they become the unreal development company

⏹️ ▶️ John that has suffered from epic and apple’s not mad at them like this can go around for ever and ever like bottom line is there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John no practical way for apple to stop continued development of unreal engine

⏹️ ▶️ John in apple’s platforms right legally speaking technologically speaking they could chase

⏹️ ▶️ John each other forever there’s no way to actually stop it assuming both parties

⏹️ ▶️ John are invested in making this happen right so the punishment

⏹️ ▶️ John given everything that i say the punishment is actually kind of bad but it’s not the end of the world

⏹️ ▶️ John and it probably won’t affect everybody who built on unreal engine but probably

⏹️ ▶️ John is where the damage is done say it never does affect any other person who builds on unreal

⏹️ ▶️ John engine if they think it might affect them they might be like do i want

⏹️ ▶️ John to use a real engine because they’re fighting with apple and i’m not quite sure how it’s going to turn out it seems like it’ll probably be fine

⏹️ ▶️ John but now i have doubts and maybe i’ll use unity instead which is a competing with three engine that works on apple’s platforms

⏹️ ▶️ John and other you know piecing game consoles and stuff right so this is actually

⏹️ ▶️ John a fairly strong move from apple what they’re doing even if it never actually

⏹️ ▶️ John quote unquote does anything eh of course damages epoch because you know fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ John gets off the app store and they can’t make the money from people using fortnight on ios

⏹️ ▶️ John devices and people who use ios devices spend a lot of money so that’s bad for them and b it makes

⏹️ ▶️ John people you know in epic’s words and all their laws which damages their reputation and makes people more

⏹️ ▶️ John wary about using building games on top of unreal engine because unreal engine is made by the company that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John fighting with apple and maybe something could happen could affect my game and so i think this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the nuclear option maybe but it’s like it’s a strong move it’s something

⏹️ ▶️ John that has to you know epic has to you take this seriously again epic could have anticipated the to do this

⏹️ ▶️ John move because of course you know what what does epoch have that apple can take away from him there

⏹️ ▶️ John are their apps in the store and the dimensionally developer count right so i’m sure they plan for this but

⏹️ ▶️ John this i think a lot of people watching this are thinking this is where each is going to blink because apple in

⏹️ ▶️ John their benevolence you know put a pressure

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco an

⏹️ ▶️ John asterisk on the app store designed to be safe and blah blah blah as much how

⏹️ ▶️ John great the app store is the apple goes on to say this is quoting from their little thing this and to the press we very much

⏹️ ▶️ John want to keep the company meaning epoch as part of the apple developer program and their apps on the

⏹️ ▶️ John store the problem epli epic has created for itself is one that can easily be remedied if they submit

⏹️ ▶️ John it up to their app that reverts it to comply with the guidelines actually says reverted

⏹️ ▶️ John to comply with the guidelines they agreed to which apply to all developers i love that every time apple references

⏹️ ▶️ John develop the guidelines after the congressional hearing they always say the guidelines

⏹️ ▶️ John which by the way are totally the same for everybody the guidelines which applied everyone equally the guidelines which as we know

⏹️ ▶️ John are are the same for every single person the guidelines which are have no exceptions like they own they had to modify

⏹️ ▶️ John to drink you know you can say it all you want now but you can every time you say guidelines you can say which

⏹️ ▶️ John apply to everyone equally it doesn’t make it true you can’t just that

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s setting that aside so the apples giving them an out first of all they gave him this deadline whenever it was the twenty

⏹️ ▶️ John eighth and then they’re saying just fix your game just take out the little thing they let you pay with a credit card and change it

⏹️ ▶️ John back to the way it was and all will be forgiven and so a lot of people are thinking all right well maybe epoch has made

⏹️ ▶️ John its point and maybe epoch will continue to pursue the lawsuits but maybe just to come back to a safe

⏹️ ▶️ John position while the lawsuits grind on through the courts maybe they just release a version

⏹️ ▶️ John of fortnight that removes the or they don’t have to release it they can just turn off the service thing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that enables

⏹️ ▶️ John enables that future right no more paying with a credit card and getting twenty percent of its back to normal

⏹️ ▶️ John or they could just stick it out and say we’re willing to take the potential reputational damage we’re willing to have ten cent

⏹️ ▶️ John open a shell company to take on unreal engine development like whatever we’re we’re in it for the long haul so

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t expect this is the end of the story but it’s a bold counter move by apple

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know the more more next week i assume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think bold is being generous here um this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should erase any doubt in anybody’s mind whether apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the i b m in nineteen eighty four like yes clearly they are oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my god they are really not doing well in the court of public opinion right now like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they couldn’t possibly have made a worse counter move if they’re trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all seem like the good guys

⏹️ ▶️ John and by the way the reason i think people are saying they look like a bully just to make this very clear is that

⏹️ ▶️ John you know the fight such as it stands like you could just say okay well you submitted an apt that violated

⏹️ ▶️ John the rules and were angry at you and we pulled the ap right and that could be like you know that’s it

⏹️ ▶️ John like well you did a bad thing with ap and we rejected your ap right that’s all they had to do it well

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m saying is that like that would seem proportional it’s like you submitted a bad apple you rejected your bad apple where

⏹️ ▶️ John and you broke our agreement like you did a sneaky thing you broke the agreement and technically yes we have according to our agreement

⏹️ ▶️ John we can do all sorts of stuff because of course our agreement tells us we can do whatever the hell we want in fact like i said apple

⏹️ ▶️ John can terminate the agreement for any reason if they just feel like it right there doesn’t even have to be a reason but as margaret

⏹️ ▶️ John was saying it seems mean to say well we’re just fighting over this one at you really got to you got to terminate

⏹️ ▶️ John my whole developer account like we don’t just develop fortnight there are other games by us on the store like

⏹️ ▶️ John we do other things that’s why it seems like bullying pieces like okay well this happens

⏹️ ▶️ John all the time and the only time we’ve seen entire developer account termination is if you are like

⏹️ ▶️ John putting up malicious software which i think would be a proportional response you have shown you are not responsible enough to

⏹️ ▶️ John have developer account you are putting out software that spies on people tries to steal information yeah but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but but you know talk about treating all developers equally facebooks accounts should have internat ed many times

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and lots of big companies who do all that their accounts are fine

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah so i mean that’s that’s the thing like it’s a measure of how big is apic is epic’s

⏹️ ▶️ John big a space book now are they as important apps platform as space book now is the important netflix probably not

⏹️ ▶️ John right like and you can kind of go by the market cap of the company or kind of go by like you can you can size it up epic

⏹️ ▶️ John is a big important company and their parent company is even bigger and even more important but they’re not facebook

⏹️ ▶️ John right so anyway that’s why it’s that’s why we’re all saying this seems this seems like bullying

⏹️ ▶️ John because they had a response that would seem more proportional that would fix the problem which is like

⏹️ ▶️ John hey someone’s someone’s apples on our store violating the rules which this is another thing not to go over an attention

⏹️ ▶️ John here but like i’m slightly confused about this alright so the apps not on the store but if you still have it you can play it like that’s the kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of compromise we would expect because apple doesn’t want all these kids to get mad because they can’t pay fortnight right but on the

⏹️ ▶️ John other hand we can’t have epic you know breaking the rules right but those kids who are still

⏹️ ▶️ John playing fortnight they can still use their credit card whatever to get twenty percent off right yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John cause and that’s the thing about like the ap you know enabling new features after it goes out which is the thing that all

⏹️ ▶️ John aps do but is technical against the guidelines if you read them right that apple actually

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t have a good way to stop those transactions other than pulling the app entirely like

⏹️ ▶️ John breaking it from everybody which they don’t want to do because then people would really be angry like hey my kid can’t play fortnight right

⏹️ ▶️ John now i’m super anger and i want to say could adults play fortnight to whatever like the users should be very

⏹️ ▶️ John upset if you broke the thing so apple has to just kind of grin and bear it and wall this grinds on

⏹️ ▶️ John yes new people can’t get fortnight but honestly a lot of people already have fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ John devices it is a very popular game and in the meantime they can all be buying vbucks for twenty

⏹️ ▶️ John percent off and that’s got a burn apple right so i feel like maybe this you know bullying

⏹️ ▶️ John response is in response to sort of epoch having one over on them because

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t you know it would hurt apple more to literally stop fortnight from working for everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John which has one more question when they terminate the developer account before i stop working for everybody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a good question so as far as i know so like there’s there’s multiple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways of you know apple developer account expirations last termination so if your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco account just expires like if you don’t renew your developer account your account expires you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco submit new bills to your app and your app disappeared from the store but anybody who has it it can still run

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can still read it from the purchases tab same thing if if your developer certificate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just expires and you still have your account but like your distribution certificate that you built the last copy of the app with if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that expires nothing bad happens you just have to make a new one before your next app update but otherwise like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it still stays in the store people can still download it and use it etcetera that’s all fine if apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco revokes your certificate from like in like a like a malware kind of way where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they they actually like revoke the thing that says it’s okay to run this then you have a charlie monroe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco situation which we i still want to talk about then you have a situation where the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app on ios i think just crashes on launch and just refuses to run without any explanation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the mac that’s when you get the dialogue that says this app will damage your computer and you should

⏹️ ▶️ Marco move into the trash i have so much to say about that but anyway that’s like revocation at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the at apple’s evel not just like you know this is no longer valid but like all previous sign

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things are now invalid from this app so i don’t know what happens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if apple terminates your developer account but not for like a malware kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of reason i think if you have the app it continues stirrings i think we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seen this like with various times whenever whenever people have tried to like put emulators in the ios app store and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re they’re up for like a day and the apple figures it out and takes them down i think they still run

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after that for people who already had downloaded them so if that’s the case

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i don’t think all all copies of fortnight out there would be remote killed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if their developer account got terminated

⏹️ ▶️ John i mean this so what you described are the various options what we don’t know is inside apple

⏹️ ▶️ John when when you hit the big terminator count button like does that make any which of those things does that

⏹️ ▶️ John make happen if any obviously apple can do whatever they want regardless of what that button normally does they can

⏹️ ▶️ John decide all a cart we’re going to turn all over count and we either are not going to revoke your certificate

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s on the table is one of their options and it’s not clear from their threat

⏹️ ▶️ John what they’ll choose to do when they do this termination to give an example of emulators like i download an nes emulator like

⏹️ ▶️ John on day two of the iphone or something somebody put up on any simulator and that worked for years now when somebody

⏹️ ▶️ John put up the net of his early days but when whoever put up the nes emulator that’s a violation of

⏹️ ▶️ John the rules but it’s also not malware but it’s also kind of a blatant violation of the rules and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John also intellectual property things it’s kind of a judgment call whether apple to think would

⏹️ ▶️ John apple have terminated that developer’s account again it’s not a clear cut case of like you’re trying to do something like

⏹️ ▶️ John really terrible you know like steel people’s personal photos or something like that right

⏹️ ▶️ John um but you are breaking the rules so i would imagine that they didn’t terminate that developers count they

⏹️ ▶️ John just rejected that application right but who knows right but either way it seems clear that

⏹️ ▶️ John the they can choose to let the app live on but the caviar on the face in the case of fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ John if you let the app live on literally millions of people will continue to be able to buy pass on that

⏹️ ▶️ John purchase and get vbucks for twenty percent off giving epic money obviously it’s not sustainable long term

⏹️ ▶️ John because you know you want new customers and stuff like that but boy it really makes me think that

⏹️ ▶️ John i can’t imagine apple tolerating three more years of a hundred million

⏹️ ▶️ John people by

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey passing there in that purchase

⏹️ ▶️ John just because they refuse to reject the certificate for the game but on the other hand does apple want to break fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ John for every single one of his customers so they’re starting to get in between a rock

⏹️ ▶️ John and a hard place here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the least of the problems i mean my big problem with this so lots of people have pointed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out what epic’s real motives here might be yeah they want to make they want to bring their appstore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to io s and take twelve percent of everybody’s you know cut instead of having to pay apple thirty percent whatever that to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me is separate that’s like what epic wants to do with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their money and everyone else’s money is not really material to this conversation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the what’s material to this issue is like first of all like whether apple’s rules are anti competitive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and whether they’ve over reached or whether it’s too big now and has to change or whatever else and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco secondly from that they’re their treatment of epic in this whether

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s kind of you know quote fair or not whatever people think and i think no matter what you think of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco epic cause i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything about epic i don’t i don’t care but what when i see what apple’s doing here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you look at it kind of a big picture scenario here apples in a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really questionable place with anti trust and control

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and monopoly and anti competitive behavior i think it’s well supported by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lots of evidence around the world that you the u s congressional committee

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their position is worthy of arguing is worthy of consideration whether

⏹️ ▶️ Marco regulation needs to be applied it is it is not a given that they are a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ Marco percent in the right with with the status quo so epic has filed a lawsuit to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco challenge this whatever you think of epic and how they’re doing this the idea of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco filing a lawsuit to challenge apple’s policies and control

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this area i think is a valid argument to have i think that deserves to be heard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to be argued what apple is doing is doing in response to this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is such a bullying move that what they are effectively doing is shutting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down the potential to have this be argued in court they are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco throwing such a bullying move here that what they’re basically saying is we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not even going to allow this to get anywhere near arguing in a court or in front of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a judge or anybody we’re going to destroy you your entire business first so that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nobody can challenge us

⏹️ ▶️ John well they’re not destroying their business but they are doing the strongest move they have available in the attempt to scare them into

⏹️ ▶️ John presumably not pursuing lawsuit there’s no apple i can actually do to stop them from i mean you can sue

⏹️ ▶️ John anybody for anything right so but this is an intimidation tactic like here is our threat here is a

⏹️ ▶️ John big hammer we are going to do this thing here are the consequences of this thing and the consequences are

⏹️ ▶️ John far reaching and damaging to your business again and it’s not going to destroy epic epic as you know this

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey is not

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t think apple’s platforms are their primary source of money although might be almost fifty percent of their money getting

⏹️ ▶️ John close to it anyway um but epic if they’re stubborn can

⏹️ ▶️ John plow ahead with their lawsuit and by the way is a ten cent is their parent company they’re just an investor they don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John a majority share share but ten cent is very big as what i was getting it um so this is this is it’s an

⏹️ ▶️ John intimidation move it’s a buying move it’s a it’s a counter move in the current thing just to see if they blink and apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is trying as we said force trying to give them an out it was also at the end of that other little things we hope you are

⏹️ ▶️ John able to cure your cure your breaches of the apple program license agreement and continue to participate in the

⏹️ ▶️ John program what apple wants is for them to get back in line and it’s saying here’s the carrot you get back in

⏹️ ▶️ John line you can continue having a fortnight we’ll go back to making sure on real engine works real

⏹️ ▶️ John well you keep your developer count we go just go back to the way things are right and you know so yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John i think it’s it’s not going to immediately destroy epic’s business it’s not that big of a hammer

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s trying to scare them off now such let’s say they do this they say

⏹️ ▶️ John okay okay apple fine here you go where we changed fortnight back we didn’t even have to release a version because it’s all on suicide

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey we changed it back to the

⏹️ ▶️ John way it was and now it’s just back then that purchase and you get your thirty per cent the lawsuit still exist

⏹️ ▶️ John this the letters that apple has sent as far as i’m aware i do not say hey epic and also by the

⏹️ ▶️ John way you have to drop your lawsuits right so i don’t know if you want to put that in

⏹️ ▶️ John to apple’s credit calm or whatever and i don’t know if there’s been a back channel but apple is not making

⏹️ ▶️ John dropping the lawsuits in an explicit condition of this it’s clear that they want them to go away and it’s clear they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to intimidate epic as much as they possibly can but it

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t like epic could release a new version and say okay we’re in compliance now see you

⏹️ ▶️ John in court

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well but but you know epic i think the reason why they didn’t just file

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lawsuit you know without changing their rapid they didn’t just file as saying you should change

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your policies and then keep their ap compliant instead they intentionally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco provoked the rule so that their app would be cut out of the store so that they could be damaged

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they could have standing to sue i’m not a lawyer so forgive you know i’m going to try to not get too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far into the legal side of this i don’t know but i think their case is probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco easier to make if they are more damaged like if they can show that apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had so much power that they got you know that they lost millions of dollars a day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or know you know whatever with this one thing that actually might help their case

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or it might help illustrate that apple has too much power now when i look at this move by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apple this this developer account threat my first thought was oh no apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lost their cool if you’re fighting with somebody and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lose their cool usually it’s good for you because if they lose their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool they will start making moves that are maybe hastily

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thought out that are maybe you know going to hurt them or can be used against them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco later and so in this case it looks like apple lost their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool with this and made a threat that was really big and really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over the top i think and i don’t think it was a good idea for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apple to have made this threat because not only does it make them look even more like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco jerks and honestly i think it kind of makes them look desperate but it also shows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the world to all the world’s governments to all the world’s consumer protection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco agencies to all the world’s congresses and legislators and to the courts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite how much power apple has and it’s too much and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole thing right now with the legislation possibly a regulation around them they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do have too much power they should be regulated they should have an injunction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco granted against this action while this lawsuits pending they have too much power and they are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco abusing it for anti competitive purposes and so for them to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have made this extra move you know taking it off the app store as you said really that’s all they had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do and then you know let the laws who proceed and let that work out over time to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also then threaten this i think makes the case better for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everyone who is fighting against them to say no look they need to be regulated they are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco acting as an abusive monopolar monopoly now they are trying to actively shut down not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only competition but legal challenges against them in ways that they probably shouldn’t be able to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so i think this actually hurts apple’s case and makes it even more likely that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they will be more heavily regulated down the road that’s why i think this is a bad move

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the they i think they will come to regret this

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah it was clear from day one that epic doing this stuff like you know they knew they were going to kicked

⏹️ ▶️ John out they weren’t surprised about what happened and getting kicked out was part of their plan because like you said like it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not legally speaking you need to do that because you can say here’s how we would experience harm but you have

⏹️ ▶️ John a stronger case you can say here’s how we did experience harm it’s not a hypothetical anymore it’s a literal thing but if you argue

⏹️ ▶️ John in court if we did this then apple would that and apple could say how do you know we would do that we do weird things all the time you have

⏹️ ▶️ John no idea what we would do it’s like well here’s what you actually did the downside for epic especially with what

⏹️ ▶️ John you know if we’re right about this thing still being in the store with the twenty percent option is is now apple can show damages too

⏹️ ▶️ John as they can say the for the last year that this this has been you know in court a

⏹️ ▶️ John epic is bit on the store not paying us or thirty per cent which they should be as part of the agreement so we’ve continued

⏹️ ▶️ John to allow users to download their app and hear how much money we lost from vbox so

⏹️ ▶️ John apple has can cite damages as well not again not just a hypothetical apple could say well if we let people do that they wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John give us a thirty per cent and say actually they didn’t let us give our thirty percent and we were nice and didn’t kick it off the store cause

⏹️ ▶️ John we didn’t want to anger or use us produce how many millions of dollars we lost right so the double edged sword there

⏹️ ▶️ John but for sure having all of these bad things happen in all cases like they did with google

⏹️ ▶️ John to they went on google he got kicked out of the sore they sued gole they’re going to sit the fact they were kicked out of the store like it’s you

⏹️ ▶️ John know it’s a clear strategy you just it’s a little bit tricky something people have

⏹️ ▶️ John discussed on and off about this epic is complaining about all the stuff at the

⏹️ ▶️ John appstore they take too big a cut they have too much to yada yada lots of people say well epic and unreal and all

⏹️ ▶️ John that stuff they participate in the game console world as well and the game console world is essentially exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John like the ap star you can’t release something for the xbox or the playstation without going through sony

⏹️ ▶️ John sony decides what goes in all platforms sony’s rules about qualifying your game for the playstation

⏹️ ▶️ John are way more draconian than apples like you know it’s not there’s a reason the app

⏹️ ▶️ John store has you know hundreds of thousands or millions of apps and the playstation

⏹️ ▶️ John does not have millions of games right sony tightly controls their their

⏹️ ▶️ John their story you know back in the day it wasn’t an ap store was like literal plastic discs but these days this digital

⏹️ ▶️ John version of all these games and you can also buy plastic disks and that’s the whole of the discussion for the time but anyway game consoles

⏹️ ▶️ John are you know very much like this and the game console vendors to platforms take

⏹️ ▶️ John a big cut according to apple’s research in that paper they put out the cut is actually similar to the aps or thirty percent

⏹️ ▶️ John ish depending on all sorts of deals or whatever um so why isn’t epic suing

⏹️ ▶️ John microsoft why aren’t they suing sony like you you why are you suing them they’re doing exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John the same thing to you right they take a percent the same big chunk out of your thing they don’t let you do all the stuff you want to do

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t let epic have its own you know game store inside playstation like every single thing they’re saying about

⏹️ ▶️ John apple is the same situation why aren’t you suing them right and i think before we

⏹️ ▶️ John get the anti trust which i think you know marco has already weighed in on and i’ve mostly not been weighing in on yet

⏹️ ▶️ John because i think there’s so much talk about before even considering antitrust you know getting back to my argument

⏹️ ▶️ John from last week the reason that epic is not suing

⏹️ ▶️ John sony and microsoft it’s it’s the same it’s the same root problem that apple has right

⏹️ ▶️ John the platform owners apple sony microsoft their job is to try to

⏹️ ▶️ John create that when win win situation where developers users and the platform are all

⏹️ ▶️ John succeed together right and you may look at it and say well why is

⏹️ ▶️ John epoch man at apple not madison that’s the job of the platform owner

⏹️ ▶️ John to make sure that people aren’t so mad that they sue them right and so the simple

⏹️ ▶️ John explanation is that despite epic having butted head heads

⏹️ ▶️ John with console makers at various times in fact having very similar sort of head butting arguments about internal

⏹️ ▶️ John purchases and selling inside outside star like these things have played out in the console world in fact sometimes specifically

⏹️ ▶️ John with epic many times the game console platforms have better

⏹️ ▶️ John managed their relationship this little triangle relationship between users developers and the platform they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John managed it better enough better enough not like their developers aren’t mad at them sometimes not like users

⏹️ ▶️ John aren’t mad at them sometimes but they’ve managed it better enough that they’re not in the situation right it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John that the rules are different it’s that the people who are the platform owners have

⏹️ ▶️ John better than apple been able to say it’s our job to make sure that people don’t get so pissed

⏹️ ▶️ John that they sue us right and and that sort of relationship like if you want to pin it down to like well

⏹️ ▶️ John what are they done it’s better game console makers understand gaming and the gaming market

⏹️ ▶️ John better than apple does in many ways and one of those ways is that they understand it’s a lot it’s an entertainment industry

⏹️ ▶️ John right and it works more like you know making movies and tv shows where those

⏹️ ▶️ John platforms actively cultivate talent and participate

⏹️ ▶️ John in this win when scenario where they will help pay for the development of a flagship game for a timed

⏹️ ▶️ John exclusivity right they will recruit talent they will invest in studios that make

⏹️ ▶️ John games they will help you market your game they will sell branded versions of your console that are like

⏹️ ▶️ John you know gears of war branded right all this relationship between sony and developers is why

⏹️ ▶️ John developers hate sony less than apple or why epic does anyway right because sony is there saying

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s a bucket of cash with a dump over your head you know where microsoft says you know

⏹️ ▶️ John develop gears of war here’s millions of dollars to develop but keep it on our platform only we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John make a special xbox that gears of war branded and we’ll sell it in the store with gears of war and epic

⏹️ ▶️ John is like yes we like you this is good and apple’s like put your app in a store it

⏹️ ▶️ John is thirty percent and ninety nine dollars a year like it’s different it’s not that type of relationship

⏹️ ▶️ John like consoles have first party games consoles have time platform exclusives mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s i’m not saying that apple has to do that and not saying just about games or whatever i’m saying is that

⏹️ ▶️ John the game console makers have better manage their relationships and that’s that’s what apple is doing

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong they’re not they’re not making sure everybody is happy many things spin out of that once

⏹️ ▶️ John once the war starts once the shooting starts right it just gets worse and worse and like margaret said losing your

⏹️ ▶️ John cool is not good i wish i could remember the specific example there’s actually a specific example of epic intentionally

⏹️ ▶️ John going against the rules and butting heads with one of these console makers and they

⏹️ ▶️ John settled it more quietly and more amicably than apple has done so far

⏹️ ▶️ John i mean this is over yet right but i’m saying like you’re always going to have flare ups and the big players like

⏹️ ▶️ John epic who are cranky you’re always going to but heads with you you’ve got to manage that right you know at the end

⏹️ ▶️ John of my uh out of the possible thing do you want to be right or do you want to be happy do you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to just be like well well we’re just sticking to our principles and then get sued and have this giant disaster are you going

⏹️ ▶️ John to say like even though i think i’m right let’s get back to the part where we all win let’s get back to the part where

⏹️ ▶️ John we at least find an acceptable compromise because we get an advantage from you being on

⏹️ ▶️ John our platform and you get an advantage from being on our platform and our customers want your game so let’s facilitate gotta

⏹️ ▶️ John get back to that wind and that’s essentially you know it’s not as if that what apple is doing is well a

⏹️ ▶️ John separate argument to be like is apple is it more important or worse for apple to be doing versus game console

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever and again i’ll say that for later but just bottom line the game console

⏹️ ▶️ John makers have historically done a better job of managing their relationships and i feel like apple needs to

⏹️ ▶️ John go to a corporate relationship counsellor missus

⏹️ ▶️ John epics on the couch how do you feel when a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco when apple tells

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you they’re going to turn

⏹️ ▶️ John your couch epics like feel bad

⏹️ ▶️ John apple how you appreciate i don’t know this could be all skin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i can’t do it on the fly yeah and this is the kind of thing that apple is historically not good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at like the like apple dealing with other companies in general it’s not very good at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially when the negotiations are actually negotiations

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and compromises on both sides as opposed to apple just being able to dictate things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John exactly that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the way apple likes it they’re real happy with those relationships

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah right when it comes to apple having to work with companies where they don’t have all the power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in in the discussion they’re historically quite bad at that actually and

⏹️ ▶️ John by the way that that is that scenario happens all the time in the app store when it’s apple versus an individual

⏹️ ▶️ John developer apple tends to find a way to deftly handle those conflicts because they have all

⏹️ ▶️ John the power and so they’re not usually super jerky about it at least not intentionally sometimes again charlie monroe

⏹️ ▶️ John accidentally jerky right but in general in these scenarios where its single lone developer versus

⏹️ ▶️ John giant apple apple finds a way to get past them we’ve talked about a million of those

⏹️ ▶️ John apps or things over the years like oh some developer had a thing with apple but because apple has literally

⏹️ ▶️ John one hundred percent of the power in every possible way they get resolved and we move on because apple

⏹️ ▶️ John essentially just runs you over right you can fly or you go away but either way it’s sold but

⏹️ ▶️ John when it’s not one dinky little elope instead of another billion dollar corporation apple doesn’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John how to use his words and talk about his feelings and it upper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh my word yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i don’t know it’s it’s tough because on the surface on the surface i can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see why apple is acting the way it is i completely disagree with their course of action

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but i can i can understand it at a surface level you know epic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did something that is expressly forbidden you know they they not only did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they do this like run around where they downloaded this update directly into the app which i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know for games that sort of kind of allowed but it seems like the way they did it probably wasn’t allowed but beyond that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they had this third party you know payment system that is expressly not allowed and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it seems like there should be a consequence for that i mean that seems pretty straightforward and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they escalated by suing apple well you know what you right back you know now you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not allowed in the store any more again like on the surface this i can understand how

⏹️ ▶️ Casey these this seems like a reasonable series of actions and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i just i feel like nobody at apple has taken a step back and said you know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as as we said last time are we the baddies um nobody has said is this really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey appropriate because we are not the scrappy upstarts anymore and i’m not the first person to say that in the last couple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of weeks and i won’t be the last but so much of apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey appears from the outside to be thinking of themselves as the beleaguered upstart and they’re not they are i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey b m now and if you want to enjoy the spoils of being i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey b m then you need to act like a grown up and apple is not acting like a grown up right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now and it’s just it’s crummy and you know the other thing about it is and this is what i was alluding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to earlier like so much of this is intertwined with so many ongoing ruffles that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apple is involved with if not directly started and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey why why did epic decide to do this end around and try to take money directly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know did they do that because they want a direct relationship with the customer well maybe but i don’t think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it did they do that because they wanted to make it easier on the customer will certainly not because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in our purchase is unequivocally easier on the consumer it may not be easier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the developer but it’s easier on the consumer it’s not easy on the consumer’s pocketbook fair fair

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s a good point but it’s it’s easier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John to

⏹️ ▶️ John saying that pick i was saying like more than half of the customers pick the cheaper option and i’m like really it was only

⏹️ ▶️ John slightly more than half i thought a hundred percent of the customers but maybe they were suspicious because they’re like wait

⏹️ ▶️ John a second this must be some kind of scam but yeah customers want it to be cheaper

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yeah absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so why did the epic do it well i mean obviously they wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey money they wanted more money but i think that in a large to a large

⏹️ ▶️ Casey degree epic as many other people have said that thirty percent is just too darn much the rent is too

⏹️ ▶️ Casey damn high and and and i don’t think that’s an unreasonable perspective

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and and then like the app store like this is another different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey topic like is the app store and apple view reasonable today well

⏹️ ▶️ John actually before you get to the thirty percent thirty percent being too darn high again consoles also charge

⏹️ ▶️ John thirty per cent it’s you have to as qualifier it’s too high for what epic feels

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s getting for its money that’s you know that’s the difference why aren’t they made at microsoft they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John paying microsoft thirty percent why how they happy it’s because i guess they feel like they’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ John value for their money again maybe they’re going to do a brand new console maybe they’re gong to help them with marketing maybe they’re going to advertise

⏹️ ▶️ John their game in their marking materials maybe they have a close relationship about exclusive future games like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John corporate relationship management right that’s that’s what the console makers are doing better than apples when we say thirty

⏹️ ▶️ John percent is too high and someone says microsoft charges thirty percent how is that different microsoft is managing the relationship

⏹️ ▶️ John better there’s it’s more than just that thirty percent number clearly epic thinks for this thirty

⏹️ ▶️ John per cent a we’re not getting enough value and b this extra pains in our ac you know dealing

⏹️ ▶️ John with apple is worse than dearing with microsoft even though it is you know harder to get something onto

⏹️ ▶️ John the consoles than it is into the app store as far as epic is concerned at the level that it plays

⏹️ ▶️ John it has less of a problem not no problem because again i think the epic is superman at

⏹️ ▶️ John the council makers too but so far not as mad as they are at apple and so yeah you just like

⏹️ ▶️ John that if you are a platform and you’re dealing with an epic and epic is important to you when the have fortnight is a popular

⏹️ ▶️ John game manage that relationship better so thirty percent is too high

⏹️ ▶️ John for the value that you think you’re getting like that’s the qualifier and everything in any sort of relationship are we all

⏹️ ▶️ John ok enough with the terms not to literally go to war and so far the answer with apple is no

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re not okay and the other council makers like for now we’re okay enough

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah and and the other thing that got me thinking as i was talking to a friend of mine and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly about the idea of like side loading so you know should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it be possible for an iphone to install an app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that somebody downloads over the internet so yes you can side load now with like a developer certificate and if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you sort of come of know what you’re doing you can even sideload using what is it alt store or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey um that again is fiddly and complicated but you can do it but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but should side loading be allowed and at first my initial reaction

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was hell ya cause this is no longer just a phone this is your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey primary computing device even for some people like myself like i spend more time in front of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a computer than most people like a traditional computer but nevertheless

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in so many ways i would say my iphone my is my primary computer and this this is getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into the whole like it is is the iphone a console which is which has floated around many

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of our friends podcast but particularly on dithering recently and whether or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not you consider the iphone a console i do think that the iphone is for many people their primary computing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey device and if it’s their primary computing device shouldn’t they be able to put whatever software they want on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it and that that’s a very slippery slope and at first i would say yes and then i thought about it and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i was like eh i don’t think i don’t know i don’t think so actually so then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that brings up this topic of curation which is what my friend brought up like the app stores

⏹️ ▶️ Casey curated now you can take curated to mean only the best you can take curated to mean not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actively hostile you can take curated to mean well it may be garbage but at least it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey steal your data and crash you know maybe maybe it’s not actively hostile in that it doesn’t seal your data but it also doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey crash and there’s so many ways to take curated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and i think that that’s okay and i think that most apple customers want a more curated experience

⏹️ ▶️ Casey however you define curated but we are how many years in the iphone thirteen or something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like that it was two thousand seven wasn’t it yep okay so we’re thirteen years into the iphone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at this juncture i feel like it is reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to let consumers make more choices for themselves i don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we really need big brother apple to be running interference for us quite

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as much as they have been now i wouldn’t necessarily take that all the way to allowing side loading

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but for example the what was it the x box thing from last week don’t i already

⏹️ ▶️ Casey forgot the name of xbox live or something like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John cloud the thankyou

⏹️ ▶️ Casey x cloud and stadium

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John of the

⏹️ ▶️ John and that was the code name i still don’t know the real name

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well whatever you know these streaming gaming services or even like an emulator like take a take a nintendo emulator

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like one of the things that apple said is well hold on we can’t we can’t verify that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all these games are not trash so no you can’t have that in the astor a why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like let the consumer decide

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well cause they couldn’t verify all these games to use in that purchase that’s that’s the real

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey we can review all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these games to comply with this extremely anticompetitive problematic rule that we have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re right and so at this point thirteen years on i mean the iphone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is almost old enough to get a learner learners permit in most american states thirteen years on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i think that customers understand what the iphone is about and the ipad two i’m picking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the iphone but yet what is is about and and i feel like we should be allowed a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little more choice and i don’t think that we’re the scared little children in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the corner wondering how to use this new computing platform again i don’t think side loading

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the answer but i feel like there should be a relaxation of what is allowed on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app store and that doesn’t necessarily explicitly relate to epic but i think that that’s one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of these boiling points that i’m seeing lately is that people are saying we want more choice and apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying no and that’s crummy and i don’t like it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah because i think the role of you know keeping users

⏹️ ▶️ Marco safe which is very important yes i like that a lot and and i actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like i said this last week too like i don’t i actually don’t want side loading or alternative

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app stores like that’s not what i would hope for as an outcome here i’m totally fine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having the app store continue to be the only way to get apps and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a as a slightly further step from that i would be ok with side

⏹️ ▶️ Marco loading long before i’d be okay with alternative ap stores because the os has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco technical limitations i took with an under the radar this week and the os has you know technical limitations where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an app currently cannot install another ap and if that were still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco allowed if if aps could be installed through you know enterprises distribution

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically through through you know that kind of like managed side loading procedure but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they couldn’t themselves then install other apps so so you could have you know apps that were distributed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on websites but you couldn’t have you know good like alternative app stores unless they would just be like giant webs or something but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like i’d be fine with that too but ultimately i actually don’t really think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco either side loading or alternative app stores are incredibly necessary or compelling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on ios however you know the app store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think overstates its value you know apple overstates the app store’s value in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco terms of curation and user safety there is lots of apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the app store i would say the majority of apps in the appstore that are total garbage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s lots of apps in the appstore that steal your personal information in ways that you don’t necessarily think or expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or are fully disclosed on many of them by facebook there’s lots of apps in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco appstore that do crash or that don’t work as expected or that don’t work as advertised

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or that don’t provide all the evidence functionality because apr view is neither perfect nor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thorough nor consistent the astor is not actually providing a huge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco degree of safety consumer protection and stuff like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the safety and consumer protection come from the operating system they come from the the technological

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limitations that it isn’t that apps you know aren’t you know reading

⏹️ ▶️ Marco each other’s files and and installing persistent demons behind the scenes that you can’t uninstall it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they aren’t avoiding that because abstr policy wouldn’t let them they don’t do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that because they can’t on i o s because the os blocks that kind of behavior like it is literally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco impossible to do the kind of things on i s unless you found some kind of security exploit

⏹️ ▶️ John right so i know the point you’re getting at and it’s mostly true but like the thing is like practically

⏹️ ▶️ John speaking if you were able to very easily get people to download applications that apple never looked

⏹️ ▶️ John at um those that the way it would be damaging is because

⏹️ ▶️ John those are the applications that would use private ip is to find the exploit to do the thing right you know what i mean like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not to say that you can’t get can’t get something with an exploit through the ap store because if you find a really good exploit you might not have

⏹️ ▶️ John to use private p you as you might not have to do anything that can detect right but once you have that side channel

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s way easier once you find an exploit to say now we’re home free right so the

⏹️ ▶️ John os is supposed to stop all of those things but if you find an exploit and especially i feel like unfettered

⏹️ ▶️ John access to private a p i s and to be able to poke around like that that’s how you find a hole in the sand box more easily in

⏹️ ▶️ John fact many of the jail breaks require some kind of like in like that where you can get arbitrary code execution

⏹️ ▶️ John so you can get to private api so it may i’m saying is it makes it more challenging for the technical limitations

⏹️ ▶️ John you do described to to hold right because they’re obviously they’re not foolproof right and apple view

⏹️ ▶️ John is even upper viewing it’s not for proof but a preview is one more stage where apple can say okay are they trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to bypass our technical limitations let’s use our tools to detect it without that extra step you’re just relying

⏹️ ▶️ John on the barriers and there never perfectly exploits are found all the time right so

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s it is not completely you know black and white situation but certainly

⏹️ ▶️ John most of the benefit that we like like you were saying most of the benefit that we enjoy is from the technical barriers

⏹️ ▶️ John not from the quote unquote curation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure but many of those same tools are running through the notarization service so like when you submit your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco binary for notarization it’s scanning it for a lot of those same kinds of things

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco i

⏹️ ▶️ John mean but if you had a side channel you wouldn’t have to notarize it either right like the whole point of side channels i can i can

⏹️ ▶️ John i somehow distribute this app to users and apple never sees any part of it i won’t notarize it you know maybe we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John use developer i do

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t i don’t think that’s necessarily a given i mean they could have it they have worked the same way that that you know enterprise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco situation works well i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any restitution i guess are those binaries ever going through apple servers well anyway it could be like on the mac where on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the mac like now you know with modern oses like you you really have jumped through hoops to run something that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a developer id signed and i think soon or already notarized and so they could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do the same thing on i her like they would have to be notarized binaries and everything like some of that attack area could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be reduced i mean there are ways to get around that like you can you know construct the selector from strings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like there’s all sort of like you know ways that you can get around their their static

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John annals

⏹️ ▶️ John and the thing is companies like epic like a re i think the reason epic wants to like to relax the rules is like if you give if

⏹️ ▶️ John you just relax the rules a little bit epic would find a way to essentially bootstrap their entire store right all they

⏹️ ▶️ John need is a tiny little corner like it’s like hey go to our website and click this link and it will use some weird exploit to

⏹️ ▶️ John get their foot in the door to bootstrap the process which will pull down you know like you can it doesn’t take much

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the thing with like security flaws one once you can get that little thing in it under the

⏹️ ▶️ John wedge in you and you see it from like the easy the easy jailbreak stores and the ways they try to make enterprise

⏹️ ▶️ John sert like less annoying if you can get that in there and like it’s it’s worthwhile for a

⏹️ ▶️ John company the size of epic to play that wakame game with apple like we’ll use this weird exploit to get the

⏹️ ▶️ John thin edge of the wedge and to be able to bootstrap our store install process and then once we get that we’re after

⏹️ ▶️ John the races and the will well you know well we won’t require anything to be notarized or maybe we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John notarize it behind the scenes and make an ice like this it’s worth while to them monetarily

⏹️ ▶️ John speaking to go through heroic measures to make it as you know

⏹️ ▶️ John as less annoying as they possibly can then then all the things that apple throws up right so it’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John like and i don’t think apple wants to engage in that war right you know it’s more cut and dry but it’s like this

⏹️ ▶️ John the app store and nothing you know so it’s that’s why every time we talk about side loading

⏹️ ▶️ John it becomes like a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like

⏹️ ▶️ John from both perspectives it’s seems like it can’t be as good from users perspective

⏹️ ▶️ John and then from apple’s perspective if they open that door even a little bit it’s it’s it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a new front you’re you’re a new warrior waging on a new front now all of a sudden we allowed

⏹️ ▶️ John this but now we have to find everybody who can find the little path that we’ve allowed

⏹️ ▶️ John and used that to bootstrap their entire universe that is filled with like bitcoin mining or god knows

⏹️ ▶️ John what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right well that’s a like this is why like i’m not pushing for side loading or alternative app stores really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i don’t think the world would end if we had that but that’s not my ideal outcome my ideal outcome

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the app store policies get slightly relaxed in in the most problematic areas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i really would not want apple to totally lose control of distribution and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco software quality on i o s they’ve already lost a lot of it just by by size i mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like like the value of the app store from any kind of like store perspective like you were mentioned earlier about like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game consoles and you you have things like cooperative marketing efforts between the platform vendor and the aps and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the games and everything and and here you know you don’t the app store does not do much for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any apps marketing anymore there are way too many apps not a lot of people are just casually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco browsing the app store as a thing that that you do every day like you know like when the phone was new you would just kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco casually browse the app store because you had no as it was like a fun thing to just browse around hey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco let’s install whatever’s here this looks nice i go on a plane let me go to the game’s page and see what games are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new and install some games these days it’s a much more mature system with a billion apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the store they the marketing value is nearly nothing even the apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that get featured they have less traffic going to them than they used to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s just again like people aren’t doing that in the same way that they used to anymore and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the absurd design doesn’t help either it’s very low information density you have very few as per page et cetera so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these things combined to be like this is providing very little marketing benefit the hosting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco benefit is something that exists but it’s something that you could you could host yourself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for you know pennies or dollars per month like it’s not significant that they are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco offering that what the abs or mainly is offering here is that apr view process and the payment

⏹️ ▶️ Marco integration for like the upfront purchasing and everything and and the ease of the payment integration

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s what they’re offering and so anybody who says thirty per cent is not worth it for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that i agree with it it’s not worth it um

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and for apple to be able to for apple be in a position

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where they can dictate we are going to take thirty percent of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all your money that goes through this platform was a totally reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ish i mean it was never incredibly great but a reasonable ish position to take when they were small and you know the argument

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i made last week is like what case was saying earlier this is now a major

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computing platform this is a huge part of lots of people’s lives

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in really critical ways like imagine imagine a couple of scenarios

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here to help make this point a little bit better a imagine if windows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pcs and max were this way from the start imagine if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all pc and mac software for the entire history of those platforms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco microsoft and apple respectively were controlling everything that coul possibly ever get written on them and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forcing everyone to put thirty percent of all commerce through them imagine if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco google chrome and apple safari and every browser imagine if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco web browsers required that all web commerce had to pay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them that happened through their browser or they would make their sights un browsable in their browser

⏹️ ▶️ Marco imagine now you might say oh well you know apple built this whole system on mobile okay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s interesting apple’s not the only company that has contributed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco massive critical infrastructure on mobile i would argue that if apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deserves thirty per cent of all transactions that happen on phones so does your carrier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what if at and t all of a sudden decided you know what we’re going to demand thirty per cent of all transactions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that happen through our network or you have to remove your phone for a network like isps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco broadband cellular component makers network providers like what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if cisco decides you know what all this traffic routing through our switches we built this infrastructure we deserve thirty percent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all money that goes through it it’s it’s a ludicrous argument and you can start to see how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if any company really did this in know for a large portion of the economy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would crush that economy and it would severely restrict it it would cause lots of problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everybody would probably be better off the entire economy would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably be better off if those gatekeepers did not do that after things get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a certain scale and you look at game consoles and that game consoles are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fundamentally different they just are they are not general purpose computers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they serve a significant part of an economy but not like a broad part they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco serve a narrow part in certain specialized ways and that’s it general purpose

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computers pcs mac and yes mobile phones are a much more broad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tool much more essential to everyday life in the same way that like you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain services like you know your water and electric supply are regulated as essential services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s how these computing devices are they are essential and it makes no more sense than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apple deserves thirty per cent of everything that goes to their platform and can dictate everybody that goes on and off of it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then if at and t or comcast or cisco or like so many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other other other things if they would do the same thing like it no one here deserves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to lock up an entire market in a way that has this much impact on the economy and has you know massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anti competitive forces at play as well like we’re beyond that level of like companies

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do whatever they want because it’s their company like again once things get to a certain size they go beyond that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is the monopolists style and role and duty to always say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we built this we put all this money into it we deserve to retain our control they always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say that like standard oil i’m sure said that like you know the railroads back in the day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’m sure they said that too that is their job to to play that card and to try to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco drum up public opinion and the court’s opinion to say like we built this and we deserve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to run it however we want but that’s not how society works like capitalism in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco its pure sense doesn’t work you need you need like you know exceptions and regulations that are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of the system to keep it healthy and to keep the economy from being locked up and having these giant monopolies

⏹️ ▶️ Marco form and kind of crush everything under them and this is that size now this is that kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of thing and in the same way that at and t shouldn’t be able to say we are not going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just take thirty percent of all your money that goes through our network apple is now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco too big for that and their platform needs to be regulated to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco preserve this entire section of our economy of our society

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of everyday consumer and business usage of their platforms they need regulation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they are too big to have the control that they have and the way they exercise their power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they are just it’s too big and too important for that now and the needs of society are now above that

⏹️ ▶️ John i’ve still been studiously avoiding the antitrust stuff and i don’t want to delve into at this late stage in this episode but

⏹️ ▶️ John i will i will leave it in the topic list cause i’ll give my take on antitrust maybe next

⏹️ ▶️ John episode but i do want to save myself from another flurry of emails assuming there is no bugs outside my window

⏹️ ▶️ John a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey person the

⏹️ ▶️ John x the name of the cloud thing products cloud is was their streaming gaming thing it’s just going to be part of

⏹️ ▶️ John xbox game pass which is their uh you know subscription gaming service it’ll be part of xbox game pass

⏹️ ▶️ John ultimate second item i mentioned microsoft and you know gears

⏹️ ▶️ John of war branded xbox and all that other stuff um microsoft actually bought gears of war a couple

⏹️ ▶️ John of years back bought like bought the entire franchise right that i imagine is another

⏹️ ▶️ John example of corporate relationship management um it’s not like

⏹️ ▶️ John microsoft stole it from epic they bought it with lots and lots of money right that’s you know we’ll make a

⏹️ ▶️ John game it’ll be exclusive for your platform and then oh well actually we’d like to make a

⏹️ ▶️ John new franchise and microsoft’s like well we kind of like unreal what come to agreement here’s a giant bucket of money can we have

⏹️ ▶️ John our non unreal can we have gears of war here you go here’s gears of or right that’s better

⏹️ ▶️ John corporate relationship management and talent or intention than apple is doing and somebody in the chatroom

⏹️ ▶️ John earlier said that ah can’t believe he’s listening to apple fans arguing against the wald garden

⏹️ ▶️ John why don’t you just use android if that’s your your argument i don’t think any of us are arguing against

⏹️ ▶️ John the wall garden we’re just saying we’d like the garden to be better tended right or we like the rules

⏹️ ▶️ John of the garden to be different in fact you know we just got done talking about side loading we’re not arguing against the

⏹️ ▶️ John bald garden it’s not a walled garden anymore it’s more of like a walled prison it’s not it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John fun to be in there we’re not like frogging through the flowers and sitting on a bench and appreciating nature some people are angry

⏹️ ▶️ John right it doesn’t mean the concept of a walled garden or a curated space is bad again game

⏹️ ▶️ John consoles game consoles are the most walled garden they very extremely closed

⏹️ ▶️ John walls very tight control and i like game consoles for those reasons because

⏹️ ▶️ John the platform owners who succeed learn how to cultivate with both money and

⏹️ ▶️ John encouragement and marketing and everything you every two leg possibly imagine talent that makes creative things

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s part of we talked about this with apple arcade apple kinda sorta got a tiny bit of a clue like

⏹️ ▶️ John hmm maybe we should give people money to make good games for

⏹️ ▶️ John our platform but the scale they’re doing it with apple arcade is nothing compared

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to the scale

⏹️ ▶️ John the console makers do it like console makers how much money does sony pay to naughty dog to put

⏹️ ▶️ John the last of us exclusively on the platform like that that bucket of money could pay for all the apple arcade seventy five times

⏹️ ▶️ John over apple night say they’re being savvy and saying we’re not putting all our money into these big buckets but there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a reason whenever in the triple a games most people don’t think of phones or ipads even though there are some really great

⏹️ ▶️ John games for phones and ipads ah you know i still think apple doesn’t quite

⏹️ ▶️ John understand but anyway getting back to walled gardens like i personally love walled gardens

⏹️ ▶️ John that are beautiful gardens they have walls but the beauty of the garden is worth it enough for me to pay the admission

⏹️ ▶️ John to get the console to sit down and play the set of games that sony has decided are allowed to be

⏹️ ▶️ John on their platform and given the amount of time i have i appreciate the fact that of all the games on the

⏹️ ▶️ John platform i could actually scroll through the list of all of them and there’s a small enough number

⏹️ ▶️ John and the best ones are really really good that’s why i keep buying sony consoles right so i guess

⏹️ ▶️ John i didn’t want to get into my personal take on the anti dress stuff now cause we’d have so much as that i think i want to get to

⏹️ ▶️ John but i wanted to address those small items just so we get slightly feed back and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey by

⏹️ ▶️ John the way if you’re already wet at me before you got to this point in the show that happens what can you do

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the creator there is no coding required you don’t have to know html or css or

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything is visual you can drag and drop stuff you can live preview everything you can pick from all

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sponsoring our show make your next move with square space

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all right let’s do some and i’d like to take a very very brief detour and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i would like to thank

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John brenda i know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right i’d like to thank brendan riel who put together ask at p dot fm

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is a search engine for ask a t p questions and answers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and this i think was born from me saying why is it that we’re asked how to move things between

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computers eighty five times a year and so brandon took it upon himself to put this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey together and it is stupendous so thank you brendan for doing that that is extremely cool and i’m sure took

⏹️ ▶️ Casey forever

#askatp: Identifying monitors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey moving on nathaniel cohen writes i have a three external monitor and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey laptop screen set up two of those monitors are identical with the same make and model

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the os therefore seems unable to reliably identify them their identities frequently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey become swapped and i usually have a once per day fun time with the mac os monitor

⏹️ ▶️ Casey arrangement slash resolution configurator this functionality for configuring monitors as exposed by the o

⏹️ ▶️ Casey s is horrendous the arrangement tab does not identify any of the monitors even when you click and drag to adjust their position

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have no idea which monitor you are affecting similarly the i for display configuration is needless needless

⏹️ ▶️ Casey needlessly spread out across and windows if you have and monitors and it’s impossible to tell if two monitors have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the same making model which window corresponds to which monitor i guess there was a question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here my question is more of a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comment

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah i put this in there i mean the question is probably like don’t you think this is bad so a few

⏹️ ▶️ John thoughts

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey as the reason

⏹️ ▶️ John i put

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey thoughts

⏹️ ▶️ John first first of all um it’s been so long since i used multiple monitors that i actually add to

⏹️ ▶️ John like you know connect to my external monitor my external montserrat which is my

⏹️ ▶️ John side car i pad to confirm this and i don’t i don’t mind too old to remember how it used to be but

⏹️ ▶️ John i double checked and of course now i forgot again but anyway and has pretty much always had a way to do exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the things he’s asking for which what what monitor is this in the arranged panel where it shows you

⏹️ ▶️ John little little squares or rectangles each one represents your monitor if you have one big monitor and one small monitor it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John easy to tell which is which the big

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey one the big rectangles

⏹️ ▶️ John the big monitor and the small rectangle of small but what if you have monitors that are exactly the same size how

⏹️ ▶️ John do you tell which is which if you just click and hold on the little rectangle it will put a red border

⏹️ ▶️ John around the monitor that you are clicking and holding on like bill click on holding the little preference pain on like a little tiny

⏹️ ▶️ John representation of your monitor but then that actual monitor will get a giant red outline around it like

⏹️ ▶️ John in real life if you look it so anyway that feature does exist it’s not obvious that it’s there but you can

⏹️ ▶️ John identify the monitors in that way then you can tell which one you re arranging the other

⏹️ ▶️ John part of this though has a tie into one of my switch glass war stories which i’m not going to have time to go into

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely here but i will give the short version of it which is when you have

⏹️ ▶️ John monitors connected to your computer like actually before i get to that the thing about the windows being spread

⏹️ ▶️ John out this is the thing that mace does and has always done i think for adjusting monitors if you try

⏹️ ▶️ John to adjust the settings on the monitor you have system preferences open and you’ve got the monitor preference pain

⏹️ ▶️ John and when you pull up the monitor’s preference pain yeah it’s whatever your main window is that has system

⏹️ ▶️ John preferences on it will show the monitor’s thing but then on every other monitor you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John also see a little miniature monitor’s preference pain that has the settings that apply to that monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John so if you want to change the resolution of a particular monitor you bring your mouse cursor to

⏹️ ▶️ John that monitor where there is a window sitting there and says pick one of these resolutions pick this color depth whatever pick this rotation

⏹️ ▶️ John thing and the window in that monitor applies to that monitor right that’s the system that they use

⏹️ ▶️ John for a long time it’s a little bit easier than having to do like okay well first i click the little representation of my monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John and then now i know my future changes apply to that monitor like it’s better when they think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John better when every single monitor has dead centre on it a window and that window controls the

⏹️ ▶️ John monitor that it’s on in fact i like that feature so much that when i made switch class one of the features

⏹️ ▶️ John i wanted to have is that the little switch palette thing you get one of those on each monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John and if you want to adjust the settings i made one preference window i tried to do use i muddle that a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit anyway i made a preference window and when you open preferences you get one preference window in every single monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John and if you want to adjust the settings of the little palette on that monitor you use the preference window lets on that monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John right so i use the same approach which most people maybe aren’t familiar with or that seems weird but to me it seems

⏹️ ▶️ John very a fairly clean way to do it i made it because i put global settings at the bottom and then i labeled them global settings

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway it’s whatever it is anyway this problem of like okay i like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the app they want i wanted to make in switch class seems easy like i’ll just make you know i’ll i’ll walk

⏹️ ▶️ John through the list of monitors and i’ll put a little you know on first launch i’ll put a little pallet on every single monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John and then when people make you know if preferences they’ll change the settings and

⏹️ ▶️ John then when they change the settings i’ll save them but i have to save the settings for each monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John like all right i made this pallet like really big in the upper right so i got to say okay really big in the upper

⏹️ ▶️ John right applies to this monitor well what is this monitor i need some way to identify

⏹️ ▶️ John monitors just like macos you know and poor nathaniel needs some way to identify

⏹️ ▶️ John monitor so i’m i’m going to save i’m going to save this state i’m going to save somehow this monitor and i

⏹️ ▶️ John thought foolishly this would be an easy thing to do there’s probably some p how you call that just gives you some kind of identifier for the

⏹️ ▶️ John monitor that’s unique to that monitor and you just save it but you know nothing nothing

⏹️ ▶️ John in sovereign development is ever that easy especially in those weird edge case areas that

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m wandering in mages right turns out there is no really good way to do that there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of ways to look super tempting one of them is like a monitor i d or display id that you get and the

⏹️ ▶️ John very first thing i did is that display i d there you go it’s easy and it’s like some big number and if you

⏹️ ▶️ John save that number when you launch it again ah and you say and you look up the us go

⏹️ ▶️ John through all the displays you’ll find on the same id and it matches up like this is great i’m like ah but what if this number

⏹️ ▶️ John changes every time you reboot so i rebooted my computer number stayed the same like what problem solved this

⏹️ ▶️ John is like day one what a great developer i am i’ve just solved this problem ah no that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a trap i don’t forget what it is like apple doesn’t promise that this thing does

⏹️ ▶️ John what it does but it’s called like i d or something and it and practically speaking it works so like

⏹️ ▶️ John i figured i was done and then i started getting weird bug reports from people and it turns out if you

⏹️ ▶️ John have a mac laptop with a discrete and an integrated gpu when it switches from the discrete to the

⏹️ ▶️ John integrated gpu that number changes and the bug reports i was getting

⏹️ ▶️ John for this were mind bending because i was like eh this never happens for me and be

⏹️ ▶️ John what in the world are you talking about like what do you mean like when i do it because because again they

⏹️ ▶️ John would do something unknowingly that triggered the use of the discrete cheap to you and if they did

⏹️ ▶️ John that and then they launched the app like it would pull the settings from the discreet cheap number because the numbers were stable

⏹️ ▶️ John but there were different numbers for discreet and integrate it took me so long to forget that anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John that doesn’t work as i need some other way to identify there’s a bunch of invo you can

⏹️ ▶️ John get using weird s c a p i s that tell you the vendor the make the model

⏹️ ▶️ John number and the serial number like i’m home free because even if you have the exact same monitor then not

⏹️ ▶️ John going to have the same serial number right all right crack developers what was the problem with this api

⏹️ ▶️ John private no i mean this is mack can do what all i want no no i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know maybe you need a in case you should know it’s your computer engineer hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John sucks

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you buy

⏹️ ▶️ John some random ass monitor and you call these apis oh this one doesn’t return anything for serial

⏹️ ▶️ John number this one doesn’t return anything for model number this one doesn’t return anything for vendors

⏹️ ▶️ John like the ap is to say you can call this p i and it will return like a number representing the vendor

⏹️ ▶️ John or it will return f f f f f f and like monitors

⏹️ ▶️ John in the real world and i need all three like i can’t just do making model because again if you have two identical

⏹️ ▶️ John monitors which a lot of people have but i still can’t tell the monitors they’re both the same make model but some

⏹️ ▶️ John they return nothing for anything some and then the internal display sometimes returns weird

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff because the internal display is made by weird different manufacturers right so that loop is out the window can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John use that because hardware is like i don’t have a serial number i don’t know what you’re talking about finally what i settled

⏹️ ▶️ John on was there’s a color what is it color sink or some color space

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s some a p i that does some crap that i don’t understand on the covers that gives me a number that

⏹️ ▶️ John is my best effort it is like it’s stable across jeep you switches

⏹️ ▶️ John even on monitors that don’t return a serial number returns a stable identifier i honestly have no idea where it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John coming from and i think it’s related to that color sink thing but the os does have some way to identify the

⏹️ ▶️ John monitor i don’t think that is even a hundred percent reliable but it’s reliable enough that i no longer get these bug

⏹️ ▶️ John reports all this long story is to say that the active in macos the act of identifying

⏹️ ▶️ John a monitor so that you know the next time the computer breaks up at the same monitor i saw before is

⏹️ ▶️ John actually extremely difficult and it would not surprise me if the herculean efforts that i went through

⏹️ ▶️ John to make sure this works in all weird scenarios it is not what

⏹️ ▶️ John the you know the monitor arrangement handling of macaws proper ghost trips i can

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine makes proper might use for example to make model serie number and just say well of course everything always returns

⏹️ ▶️ John you know a serial number and then just not care about some you know cheap knock off monitor that

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t do that right but you know and or maybe the color sink thing or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever it is that i’m using one of the failure modes is in nathaniel’s specific case with his

⏹️ ▶️ John specific monitors so i don’t have a good answer for you but i can tell you that

⏹️ ▶️ John this problem is not well solved in macos and it doesn’t surprise me that you’re having these

⏹️ ▶️ John problems ah and i would love a ovs files on radar at some point or

⏹️ ▶️ John feedback or whatever i would love for apple to provide apis that perform this function because i think being

⏹️ ▶️ John able to identify the same monitor cross boots is important i kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John feel for apple though because if you literally have an identical monitor and that monitor just

⏹️ ▶️ John lies or just doesn’t tell you anything about itself and there’s another one right next to it that does the exact

⏹️ ▶️ John same thing how do you tell which monitors and maybe maybe someone under the covers again the g p identifier

⏹️ ▶️ John but like on boot up when it senses these two monitors like maybe you could tell what port they’re connected to

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t i don’t even know anyway this is a hard problem i’m sorry nathaniel and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John one of my many miniature war stories about dealing with switch glass and i feel for all

⏹️ ▶️ John of us just have a single monitor that’s a solution get real get a really really big five thousand dollar monitor that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John my advice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh

⏹️ ▶️ John excellent six if you want to stand you know what i’d actually forgotten about the stand until

⏹️ ▶️ John marco said that so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thank you you’re welcome but i recommend expensive products

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mike milano or perhaps casey list write a part time developer with no design skill

⏹️ ▶️ Casey struggle with finding ways to improve the look and overall design of my apps i can’t afford to pay anyone to help

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at this point so i’m looking for resources that i can learn from i often look at popular apps as well as other aps in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the same space as my aps but i feel like it’s one of those you don’t know what you don’t know situations where i might

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not recognize small details buttons with a slight shadow spacing spacing on different elements et cetera

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you know of any websites or youtube channels that do ap tear downs that could be a good way for me to hear experts give constructive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feedback and other resources you can recommend a part time developer with little artistic sensibilities

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m all ears gentlemen what he got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i should have an answer to this but the simple answer is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no i don’t um i have gone into this process myself for the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reason i too have been a developer with no design skills that couldn’t afford to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pay someone else for help um i have now moved into being a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco developer with some design skills who doesn’t feel like paying people for help because i like doing everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco myself if i can and it has all such benefits for things like speed and workflow and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing it that way um first of all there’s no shame in this like there’s no shame in my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps are kind of ugly and i don’t know how to help and and i can’t afford a designer like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very common place to be for developers so there’s no shame in this you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco own it as mike is so that’s fine and and you know don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be afraid to you know actually address this and and call it out in public and be and be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco vulnerable in this way and solicit feedback from people who will give it also there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are like just kind of certain general principles that you can start with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the best is like you could actually read the hig i haven’t but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could because like when it comes to things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sizing of controls spacing a lot of design comes down to just following

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the platform’s standard and many of is’s tools and and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know things like out to lay out things like even the hell was that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from kids outside just the a rock at my

⏹️ ▶️ John window what seriously terminated his developer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again yeah it should be all right they ran

⏹️ ▶️ Casey away i was going to say are they looking to like flirt with you or something it’s just like you know in a late nineties early

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two thousands date movie

⏹️ ▶️ John seems unlikely go to the window maybe there’s some romance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are they holding up a boom box perhaps marco hasn’t seen it neither have i i just know the reference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think i’ve seen like bits and pieces like on t and t or something anyway um auto layout

⏹️ ▶️ Marco swift you eye you get a lot of the stuff for free of like following the standard spacing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco following standard sizing et cetera so a lot of it is like if you if you don’t actively

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mess with it it will be right and so that’s that’s that’s like one way to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to kind of ensure that you have like a reasonable design is just like follow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that are as standard as possible if you can one or of the other major areas of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco design becomes typography and this goes to not only like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how you lay out your text but where you lay it out in the ui what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco style of text you use for different elements what sizing what spacing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how you word things how you capitalize and punctuate things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all of the like the style of how to do that is all spelled out in various star guides

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all over the place you know apple has stains here and there you can also just kind of look at what other apps do like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it when you’re writing your setting screen text or whatever you can you can go and look and see like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what do most other apps do for capitalization of this setting do the capitalize every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco word they capitalize only the first word stuff like that like you can you can kind of look at other apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is this is how i’ve learned most of my app design skill if you can call it that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco taking cues from what do what like what do apples built in apps do in this way what and look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at those really boring ones like mail like like how how how do apple’s built in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps or like the setting zap how do how do they design this thing what size

⏹️ ▶️ Marco icon do they use in this context what style of text and capitalization do they use in this context

⏹️ ▶️ Marco et cetera that’s a lot of design right there and then as you get more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comfortable with this when as you start to make things fancier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just kind of be careful like dip your toe and things slowly so for instance if you want to do something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like add a custom font that’s a risky move you can do it well you can do it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco poorly be careful go into it slowly like add like one font

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not seven ten um use it you know gently

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like dip your toe in slate don’t pick like a super extreme font with like tons of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco overt personality that that might be you know off putting to people and stuff like that as your sizing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your your text or picking colors or at least color like shades of gray for your text

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t use a bunch of different shades or a bunch of different colors pick like a small number of colors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and a small number of sizes and a small number of styles stuff like that so so so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you end up dipping your toe slowly in into custom design rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than looking like a ransom note from made made of torne magazines

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so yeah but other than that unfortunately i can’t actually recommend like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specific youtube channels or books or websites to do this because not only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do i not know of any off the top of my head and i didn’t really read or watch any but also if you start

⏹️ ▶️ Marco asking designers you know you can go to like you know various designer websites

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or forums or have designers yell at you on twitter if you ask them what is the right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way to do this or what’s the best way to do this or how do i make this better they’re all going to give you different answers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re going to disagree with each other they’re going to be contradictory many of them are going to be wrong many of them are going to be bad or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many of them are going to are going to actually work worse in the context of an ap because designers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco aren’t all perfect i mean how many developers do you know who are perfect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you think about development as as a practice it’s pretty much impossible to do it perfectly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can ask four developers in a room how to do something you’re going to four very different answers and designs the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco same way designers don’t all agree on everything they’re not just one like monolithic block that they can give

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you like the one true answer they’re going to have recommendations that are all over the map and some of the some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them are going to be bad designers some of them are going to be great designers and it’s kind of hard to tell if you don’t know what you’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ahead of time so it’s actually really hard to involve other people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a great way here like no one person is going to tell you everything correctly and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you need to know so it is worth developing the skill in your own it is worth like developing a sensibility

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of at least like general guidelines of like here i can make a pretty good version one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then if i get a lot of feedback to a certain point then maybe i can adjust the screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or adjust this you know font or move this control or if my users are not finding something or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they are complaining about how something looks like maybe then adjust it but yeah overall

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is this is a worthwhile skill to develop but it is i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unfortunately know of any good shortcuts to do it except try to mimic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what the system maps do as much as possible if you have any doubt on a design choice

#askatp: Design by programmer

⏹️ ▶️ John i make one modification to what marco said in one addition modification is i think you should read

⏹️ ▶️ John the hig the apple human interface guidelines it’s not going to be super helpful

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not going to tell you exactly what to do but there’s tons of texts there and even if you disagree with it

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s it has a rationale and you will find things in the gig especially if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not an experienced designer that you hadn’t even thought about that you hadn’t even thought this was a thing to make a decision

⏹️ ▶️ John about it all even if you disagree with the decision that the hig says or it seems weird or whatever you do don’t agree with the rationale

⏹️ ▶️ John just knowing that this is a thing that you should think about and make a decision about is valuable so i would absolutely read

⏹️ ▶️ John the hig you know not not read it as the bible but read it just to sort of get

⏹️ ▶️ John the lay of the land you know start learning what it is that you don’t know and the addition i would say is

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t find other developers to bounce things off of

⏹️ ▶️ John ideally they’d be more experienced developers but even if it’s just a bunch of people who are at the same

⏹️ ▶️ John level of experience having other people you know put their eyes

⏹️ ▶️ John on what you’re working on really helps like you know so i’ve been a machine in nineteen eighty four i know what

⏹️ ▶️ John makes should look like when i was making my first mac ap i could

⏹️ ▶️ John tell it was wrong like it’s you know if you have experience with the platform you’re like well

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m not a designer but i’ve been using a mac for years and this looks messed up i

⏹️ ▶️ John was very able to tell that you know i got like a bunch of controls i’m laying out in a dialogue and it’s not doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John look right to me like it’s off and i can even tell you what specifically was wrong with it it’s it feels heavy

⏹️ ▶️ John on this side and this spacing feels too tight it’s like okay well then what if you just make the spacing bigger it’s like no it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John still wrong like i have a fire a finely tuned sense of what is right and wrong from vast

⏹️ ▶️ John experience with the platform but why i didn’t have vast experience with is say you’ve got this bucket full of controls

⏹️ ▶️ John how do you lay him out in a way that doesn’t feel wrong it’s real easy to do it when you just have a simple problem or like

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the examples from the hig but where about when you’ve got your app with your stuff in it

⏹️ ▶️ John an experienced mac developer say oh i’ve been faced with that same bucket of controls and here’s how i dealt

⏹️ ▶️ John with it i did it like this i like that and again they’re not going to agree but you know the way i essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John work shopped like in my very first dinky little mac ap the one tiny little preference window i bounced

⏹️ ▶️ John off a bunch of vastly more experienced mac developers and they also didn’t agree right but

⏹️ ▶️ John we could all agree it was wrong and they had some good ideas about how to make it better

⏹️ ▶️ John and then i essentially took the idea that i liked the best and modify it with my own taste and then would

⏹️ ▶️ John bring it back again and say what do you mean i think market was in the channel in case you’re both in the channel i was doing this i

⏹️ ▶️ John would relay out the dialogue and say what do you think of this and then five more opinions would chime in and then i would you

⏹️ ▶️ John know do the same thing find the opinion that i agreed the most of us give it a try and try it again and iterate and

⏹️ ▶️ John so on and so forth that’s a great way to learn and obviously maybe you’re not going to have access to a

⏹️ ▶️ John slack channel with like people with decades of development experience but surely you have access to some

⏹️ ▶️ John other developers and law of averages mean that some of them will be more experienced or better designers than

⏹️ ▶️ John you that combined with what mark was saying you know you just got to put in the time and do all those things

⏹️ ▶️ John and i think you’ll be fine there’s no become a great designer in twenty one weeks course that you’re goin to find a youtube that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John gon to do what just putting in the time and giving it a try and you know doing some basic background

⏹️ ▶️ John reading and bouncing ideas off your friends that’s all there is to it

#askatp: Switch from Windows

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eight christian row writes i’m a long time windows user since the early nineties but i love my iphone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and ipad the new move to big sur and apple silicon that can run apps across apple platforms

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has me finally contemplating the big switch where do i start i’m a power user and want more than the basics

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s such an open ended question i don’t even know where to start with the answer to be honest with you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey um if you want to laugh you can look through the exchange that mark when i had fifteen now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey twelve years ago now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before the it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was it was it i thought it was after the iphone but maybe you’re probably right maybe it was two thousand six i thought it was two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thousand eight but anyways we a long time ago had this conversation publicly via

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tumbler and so you can go get a get a good laugh about that but i i don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where do you start with this

⏹️ ▶️ John this question doesn’t make it clear whether this is about hardware or software is it like

⏹️ ▶️ John what hardware should i buy or where should i get started learning about things i mean on the on the sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of software slash knowledge side listening to weird nerdy podcast like a db

⏹️ ▶️ John is a great start because even though especially if you’re new to the platform a lot of the stuff we talk

⏹️ ▶️ John about is going to go over your head just through osmosis and exposure you will start to learn things about the platform

⏹️ ▶️ John again kind of like reading the hig you’ll learn what the issues are and the lay

⏹️ ▶️ John of the land maybe you won’t understand the details but you’re like oh this is a thing and that’s a thing and maybe you’ll hear

⏹️ ▶️ John us talk about something like you know clipboard managers or something which you probably know from an not already anyway but just as

⏹️ ▶️ John an example a category of apt that we talk about as if it’s just a thing that everybody knows about but maybe you’re not familiar

⏹️ ▶️ John with or like you know quick launchers like lunch bar or whatever and that will send you down a rabbit hole and then you know

⏹️ ▶️ John outside the podcast world finding websites or people to follow on twitter that are themselves

⏹️ ▶️ John mac power users and just you know absorbing the firehose of those websites

⏹️ ▶️ John those blogs those twitter streams you will pick up everything you need to know about

⏹️ ▶️ John being a more advanced user on the platform like i know people always want sort of the

⏹️ ▶️ John like i said the twenty one day course or whatever just like here you go here’s everything you need to know and people always want

⏹️ ▶️ John someone to create those and they hope they exist but the thing is stuff like that dates very quickly

⏹️ ▶️ John and has a huge amount of opinion inserted into it and generally isn’t financially

⏹️ ▶️ John you know very advantageous so they tend not to exist or if they exist they’re they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John either were never valuable or they are no longer valuable because they’re too far out of date right so people

⏹️ ▶️ John who learn that way people like likes tell me everything i need to know like i learn well from videos to learn well

⏹️ ▶️ John from reading tell me that about this new thing in most new things that doesn’t exist the example

⏹️ ▶️ John i always go back to i think i wrote about once is like remote control cars like tell me everything i need to know but remote control car it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like no that’s not it’s not the way it works what happens is you get a car and you build it and you break it and you buy a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ John magazines over stuff that you don’t understand and you read them for a year and at the end of the year you know more than you did at

⏹️ ▶️ John the beginning that’s it like there’s no there’s no course there’s no instruction there’s no smooth

⏹️ ▶️ John path to learning is just dive in there ah and expose

⏹️ ▶️ John yourself to the things that you want you know the things that you want to achieve

⏹️ ▶️ John find people who are already there and then just absorb their output even if in the beginning

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t make any sense to you it will eventually and that’s that’s the way we all got to where we are we didn’t know anything about

⏹️ ▶️ John computers and we just went to you know we just sat in front of it and plugged away or went to the computer

⏹️ ▶️ John class or the computer club i took i took typing courses they called them but we were typing on computers

⏹️ ▶️ John which meant that i could figure out how to put my name on the screen in between the typing let you know like

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no there’s no short cut just like the designer questions no shortcut but the good news is

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s tons of resources no matter how you want to consume it if you like you tube there’s plenty of youtubers where you can just watch them

⏹️ ▶️ John start talking about text stuff if you like podcasts here you are right if you like blogs or websites to

⏹️ ▶️ John tons of those out there um just find the one that appeals to you and just start

⏹️ ▶️ John start absorbing and you will learn and if this is a question about what computer to buy i’m sorry

⏹️ ▶️ John we failed you but i’ll be more specific next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time where do i start buy a mac

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s the lunch

⏹️ ▶️ John one yeah i know welcome

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy a laptop not

⏹️ ▶️ John undo that is terrible i can’t even agree on that you’re not buying anything until the arm max

⏹️ ▶️ John come out so you know

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hold that thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well but like i mean would you tell somebody like don’t switch to our platform right now i don’t think i would tell them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think i would you know it’s not the best time in the world to buy mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John or platform i didn’t know what i didn’t get my check do you get a check it’s not my platform you don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey your

⏹️ ▶️ John thirty

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey percent yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s my thirty percent built the platform yeah now i would say i would say

⏹️ ▶️ John especially if you’re if you’re a long time windows user thinking of switching because because this person says

⏹️ ▶️ John because of the arm transition and the ability to run ipad apps right now that has me finally

⏹️ ▶️ John contemplating the big switch yeah wait for arm if you can wait for arm for sure

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re switching platforms like that means you’re already on a platform and you’re fine stay there it’ll you know wait

⏹️ ▶️ John until our macs are available they will hopefully be compelling and that’s that’s the thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John is specifically attracting this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco person yeah and you probably won’t have a long wait i mean maybe like another month before the first one is available and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John probably going to be a lapped

⏹️ ▶️ John up so yeah and only two years until in theory they’re all available because it’s a two year transition if all goes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to plan exactly all right well thank you very much your sponsors this week hey dot com

⏹️ ▶️ Marco square space and rakan and thank you

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco members who support us directly you can learn more about that at t p that f m slash join

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will talk to you next week

⏹️ ▶️ John now this show is over they didn’t even mean to begin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or it was accidental john did

⏹️ ▶️ John do any research marco and casey wouldn’t let him use it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ John though it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but

⏹️ ▶️ John you can find the show notes at b dot fm and

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re into twitter you could follow them

⏹️ ▶️ John c

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a s e y l i assess that’s k c s m a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco r c a r m ant marco men

⏹️ ▶️ Marco s i r a c

⏹️ ▶️ John siracusa is accidental

#askneutral: Driving stick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so alex keeling wrote in and i think this was supposed to be an s a t p question but we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted to move it to a ask neutral question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah that’s the thing now alex asked she was asking about general stick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shift driving techniques and advice and i don’t have the actual letter written

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to us but basically how do you drive a stick i could answer this question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then john will explain that everything i’ve said is wrong even though it wouldn’t be so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let me just cut to the chase and asked john how do you drive a stick

⏹️ ▶️ John you you can cry men on these bullet points i feel like we can all try men on them we’ve all driven

⏹️ ▶️ John stick i mean this wasn’t directly from her thing i just like listed a bunch of you cause she was just

⏹️ ▶️ John you know asking journal but this is my list of like things that people talk about about driving stick and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John left stuff off but just try man god tell us what

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you

⏹️ ▶️ John think about all the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bull point all right so to start how do you learn they’re very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very different ideas about how to do it but and i’ve only taught a couple of people to be honest with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you but what i like is starting out without using the gas at all so you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stop dead you using your left foot of course you slowly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey come off the clutch until you see or and or feel and or hear the engine start to bog a little bit because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the clutch is starting to pick up and then you push the pedal all the way back down do that again

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to feel where it is the clutch is starting to grab and you do that a whole bunch of times just not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even intending to move you know hopefully you’re on a flat surface and you’re just kind of standing still and you’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a feel for where the clutch is really grabbing then you do the same thing extremely slowly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but eventually let yourself get to a roll so you’re eventually all the way off the clutch and then you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stop and you do that again and you do it super slowly a whole crap load of times and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey once you get a feel for how that works just make it faster simple right that’s all you got to do um

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that’s that’s how i like just do just learning how to get going um

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other well it used to be pro tip but not as much any more ah because of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey electronic parking breaks but the other thing you can do is if you’re ever on a hill and need to take off particularly if you’re in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a front wheel drive car which most are then you can use your handbrake to hold

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you where you are while you’re doing the whole dance with your feet and then release the handbrake with your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hand once you start to creep forward um that is a very neat trick that i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t know for a long time and i wish i had known when i was first learning but in terms of technique and advice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i am a big believer in john’s first bullet here which is downshifting and engine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey braking so what that means is as you’re approaching say a stoplight you would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and let’s say you’re in i don’t know fourth gear cause you’re just around town as you’re approaching the stop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey light and you see it’s red down shift into third and then come completely off the gas and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what is it the compression of the engine will force the engine to try to slow down and when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off the clutch that means if the engine slowing down your wheels are slowing down and so i’ll downshift once or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey twice maybe even three times coming up to to a stop sign or stop light and that’s again downshifting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an engine breaking and i am i am in favor of this some people would argue that that’s a poor choice because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’d rather wear your brakes than wear your engine and i understand that but i don’t know i’ve always i’ve always

⏹️ ▶️ Casey done it john before i move on to the next bullet thoughts about that

⏹️ ▶️ John you should you should do all the bullets cause you’ve already gone through learning and downshifting so i’m going to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go ahead all right i’ll carry on then a common guidance which i am terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at do as i say not as i do keep your hand off the shifter it’s bad for the lift linkage it’s bad for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the transmission potentially just don’t touch the shifter if you’re not actively shifting i often

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rest my hand on the shifter which is not at all what you’re supposed to do but you should keep your hand off of it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you want to make things smoother and this is kind of like moving from novice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to amateur level if you want to make things smoother on a down shift then you can do what’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey called ref matching so let’s say you’re cruising at and i’m making this up but let’s see you cruising at forty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey miles an hour and fourth gear and you’re at two thousand rpm well you know or you will learn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over time that if you were to downshift at forty miles an hour from fourth to third then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that will bring you to about three thousand rpm from two thousand rpm well what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what you can do in order to make things a little smoother is you would press the clutch you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would blip the throttle with your right foot to get the rpms of the engine up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to about three thousand rpm or wherever you think it a land and then you come off the clutch and the reason you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do that is because then the engine and the transmission are all in their appropriate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey relative speeds such such that there is no like jerking backward and forward the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the opposite of this is just popping the clutch which means you are you know you’re doing what i say thirty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey forty miles an hour and fourth gear you press in the clutch you downshift to third and you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey come right off the clutch real fast and then you’ll you’ll feel that like of your whole

⏹️ ▶️ Casey body shifting as the engine and the transmission are coming back into an even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey relative speed so i again strongly encourage rev matching

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it will make your downshifts particularly considerably smoother

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then if you want to go from novice or well you’ve you’ve gone from amateur to novice now you want to go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from novice to expert level you can do what’s called heal towing which is something i also do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is kind of difficult although i do it in the wrong way so the way you’re supposed to heal to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is you’re supposed to put the toes of your right foot on the break which is a middle pedal and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re supposed to twist your foot such that the right heel can press the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gas pedal so the idea is

⏹️ ▶️ John what makes you think that’s the way you’re supposed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do it because it’s called heal too

⏹️ ▶️ John i think you i mean i understand that it can be done both ways but i think the way you descr i would

⏹️ ▶️ John say the way you described is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wrong way well in this and the way i described is not the way i do and i’ll describe how to do it in just a moment but like if you ever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see like racing drivers doing what i would call a heel toe downshift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i almost always see them done with a twist of the foot such that instead of your foot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know instead of your toes being at midnight and your heel being at six your toes are at like ten ten

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and your heel is at like four am and again that’s not the way i do it but that’s the quote unquote standard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way of

⏹️ ▶️ John doing it you i think that’s the opposite of way you describe them basically i’m saying heel on the brake tow on the gas but you

⏹️ ▶️ John were saying to on the gas to on the brake heel on the gas

⏹️ ▶️ Casey correct maybe i’m wrong but that’s the way i always thought i saw it was that you’re you’re twisting your foot counter clock

⏹️ ▶️ John one whenever i see videos of people’s feet i always see heel on the brake to on the gas and

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the way i think of it obviously both of them will work not just you know anybody continue description like why are we why are we

⏹️ ▶️ John touching the gas in the break at the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey same time right so the theory is you’re especially if you’re driving in with the quickness

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not all you it doesn’t have to be that way but often if you’re driving with quickness you’re coming up into a turn very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quickly you’re going to break as you’re entering the turn and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the way out of the turn you’re going to want to stand on that gases as much as you can but because you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lost all that speed in the turn you’re now in the wrong gear so the idea is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you will start your breaking and then press your foot on the clutch to come down a gear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then as you’re breaking and your foot is on the clutch you’ve already you’re already on top

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of two petals you would like to do that blip of the throttle to do the rev matching that we were just talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the same time so you now have three pedals you need to interact with and only two feet to do it unless you are extremely gifted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so what you would do is you would blip the throttle

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with potential your heel potential your toe or what i actually do and i’ve done it every car i’ve ever owned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is i keep my foot vertically oriented my toes are at midnight my my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my heel is at six p m or m or whatever and but i will roll my my foot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so i’m i’m rolling as though i don’t know how to it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so hard to paint a word picture here but i’m rolling the right edge of my foot such that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco hitting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the gas this is terrible podcasting it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey terrible i’m so happy this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the after show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so you roll your foot such that you can press the gas with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the right side of your foot and the break with with the left side of your foot um now someone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the chat is saying oh this is racing technique and not safe driving i disagree actually i think it is safer to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not disrupt the balance of the car so this is more necessary in racing but i still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think if you’re coming through a turn and you need to downshift the last thing you want to just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do is disrupt the balance of the car and if you’re popping the clutch or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing a whole bunch of things in in in cereal rather than parallel that can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey disrupt the balance of the car so that’s what i would call heel toe shift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and john i’m genuinely curious to hear how you perform such such a maneuver because again for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me it’s a roll with the left foot on the left side of the foot on the break right side of the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco foot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the go oh my god i just i have you know i drove manual for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably ten years i never did any of this stuff except downshifting sometimes it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John surprise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me and it was fine i like i never lost a clutch i never blew out an engine like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s fine like you you don’t need to do almost this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah exact thank you john but hey alex asked what what what do we recommend well this is what we recommend

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is the crash course and

⏹️ ▶️ John this is what casey recommends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so far alex asked about quote general stick shift driving techniques and advice

⏹️ ▶️ John this is none of that case added his own bullet point for learning but everything else i think is

⏹️ ▶️ John this one one more bullet point case the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey last i’m trying i’m trying i’m trying and then finally double clutching so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m a little weaker on this this is not something i ever do but the idea is typically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with a car with a syncros which is basically every modern car you would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just let’s say you’re going from second to third you pressing the clutch you move the shifter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you you come off the clutch well it used to be and it still is in certain circumstances

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you know eighteen wheelers for example that in order to get the transmission in the engine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey spinning it at reasonable rates you would need to kind of modulate that yourself so instead what you would do as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you would push the clutch in get the gearshift and neutral come off the clutch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey push the push the clutch in again then put the gearshift in third and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then come off the clutch and that’s double clutching and maybe john has a legitimate reason why you would do this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a modern car i i never ever ever do this and that is all the bullets that john put

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in and off the top of my head that’s actually all the things that i actually one other thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you live in a snowy climate or if you’re in a situation where you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe you’re on a slick road or something like that it is possible to start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from a dead stop in years other than first year

⏹️ ▶️ John spoken as someone who didn’t learn stick on a car with seventy five horsepower

⏹️ ▶️ John there is that i assure you my volvo wagon could not come start in any

⏹️ ▶️ John conditions and second gear oh

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey come on

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s four it had four years plus an overdrive button and second gear was not going to send you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anywhere one of my happiest moments with my maxima was when i was starting from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a stop going uphill a pretty steep stop and the maximum did not have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hill hold it was too old for that this is nineteen eighty six maximum was long before that was a common

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing and and so i got it from first or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i got it from a stop i thought i was in first and i was uphill and i just slowly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco grab up the hill man that was harder than i thought and then i realized i was in third and i just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco started in third uphill and it didn’t stall it made it like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it didn’t have a lot of extra power but it did

⏹️ ▶️ John make it had more had more than a giant volvo wagon they probably weighed a million tons with a seventy five horse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey baring all i’m saying is if you’re in a modern car and you’re in like snow or something like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that your it is potentially advantageous to start in second or potentially even third

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because you’re putting less torque against the wheels that are driving the car and that would make it less likely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do it like a burn out or whatever the case may be oh burn out if you’re in a front or we will drive car

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and not an all wheel drive car give the car way too many revs you know three four

⏹️ ▶️ Casey five thousand or as you’re sitting still and then just pop the luch and that’s basically all you need to do although you pay in a modern

⏹️ ▶️ Casey car you’re probably going to need to turn off trash control and all that jazz but you can do it that is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the list i think let me let me try to add as your talking john the things i just came up with but what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did i go where did i go wrong what did i forget

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m not going to be going to learning because we have a separate thing for that maybe we’ll talk about that i am out of this back is the only

⏹️ ▶️ John person who has successfully taught another human to how to drive stick as far as

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey i know is true and not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco true

⏹️ ▶️ John i taught david carpet to drive stick a child’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey human my own child

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John okay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fair enough yeah he was only nineteen at the time does

⏹️ ▶️ John that count yeah anyway i’ll talk about it some other time it’s a whole different thing um downshifting

⏹️ ▶️ John versus engine breaking like the trade off casey mostly got at all the points i want to make but the trade off

⏹️ ▶️ John is it is not i would say it’s not between like wearing your brakes versus wearing the engine

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s wearing your brakes versus wearing wearing your clutch right so when you when you engine break

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not letting the clutch shift but it is more stress on the clutch in a situation when you wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John be doing it at all you’re downshifting engaging a lower gear and if you’re not doing graph matching all of a sudden

⏹️ ▶️ John the you know the engine the transmission is going faster than the engine and the transmission is connected to the engine all

⏹️ ▶️ John of a sudden it sets the nine up and yes that is her in the engine but it’s also where in the clutch cause you’ve just touched a clutch to the

⏹️ ▶️ John transmission you’ve made you’ve made those surfaces and they were turning at different speeds if again if

⏹️ ▶️ John you didn’t do reaching right ah if you don’t engine break at all

⏹️ ▶️ John you will wear your brakes down way faster right and you say well brakes actually are more expensive than

⏹️ ▶️ John a clutch if you look at how much it costs to replace four brake pads that’s more expensive than one clutch

⏹️ ▶️ John if you look at the parts cost unfortunately the clutch is inside your car in a place that is hard to get to

⏹️ ▶️ John and so changing your clutch tends to be way more expensive than changing your pets

⏹️ ▶️ John um all that said i mean i feel like that’s the trade off you’re doing i think it is essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John unsafe not to do any engine breaking in a stick shift car i mean maybe it’s because i’m using

⏹️ ▶️ John cheap cars but the brakes alone without using any form of engine braking will make you

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like your car is worth breaking because it does any car with a non manual transmission

⏹️ ▶️ John uses some form of engine braking to help slow the car down like they you know an automatic transmission does not shift

⏹️ ▶️ John into neutral as soon as you try to come to a stop from sixty miles an hour like try that in a stick shift car in a safe

⏹️ ▶️ John way go sixty hold down the clutch and try to break and then do the same thing with downshifting its

⏹️ ▶️ John night and day so you have to downshift and use engine braking that has to be part of your driving you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have to do it horrendously you can do some breaking with less engine braking you can downshift less

⏹️ ▶️ John aggressively but i feel like you have to know how to downshift

⏹️ ▶️ John an engine break even if you just do it as like a matter of find myself doing it as a routine like stopping from

⏹️ ▶️ John thirty i will go through all the gears back down to one sometimes you know while i’m

⏹️ ▶️ John doing that i’m barely engaging the gears in between just because it’s a casual stop is just a good habit

⏹️ ▶️ John to get into and my history has shown like i sold my nineteen ninety two accord just as

⏹️ ▶️ John the clutch was going and that was at over a ten year old car like eventually all clutches wear out whether

⏹️ ▶️ John you do engine breaking or not but it’s not like you’re going to wear through your clutch in the first year or whatever it’ll be fine please

⏹️ ▶️ John learn how to downshift and do engine breaking keeping your hand the shifter no don’t do that um

⏹️ ▶️ John i think most of the stories about how bad it is are sort of like you

⏹️ ▶️ John know tales that we tell each other legends urban legends about oh it’s going to mess up your linkage and you’re putting stress

⏹️ ▶️ John on i’m not even sure if that’s true but there’s a more important reason if your hand is on the shifter and you like sneeze

⏹️ ▶️ John and you knock it out of gear or do something like it just don’t have your hand on a control surface that you’re not planning

⏹️ ▶️ John to control you’re just asking for you to screw something up so don’t restring on the shifter isn’t this steering

⏹️ ▶️ John wheel a control surface right but you have to constantly steer but you don’t have to be constantly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shifting how much how much control of your hands are you losing

⏹️ ▶️ John when you sneeze you could get startled or whatever like i mean obviously you have to be steering like you

⏹️ ▶️ John if you could avoid holding the steering whe and you didn’t have to steer the yet you should and shouldn’t be that you but you have to

⏹️ ▶️ John steer but you don’t have to constantly be shifting so why touch your hand to a thing that you could potentially

⏹️ ▶️ John screw up when there’s no reason you need to be touching

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it don’t also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have again like in my probably decade of driving stick i don’t think i ever accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco knocked the car out of gear like that’s kind of hard to do

⏹️ ▶️ John but do you do you rest your hand on the shifter the entire time you’re driving of course it looks cool this that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco terrible i’ll be one of those people i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was totally one of those people and it was fine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i am one of those people but i know i shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John i i mean yeah maybe in some kinds of cars or some older cars or some

⏹️ ▶️ John newer cars that actually is bad to rest on the linkage i just don’t know if that’s specifically true i feel like the safety

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is more compelling but in general it’s not i’m not going to say sanitary like it’s not it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not like proper technique it’s like it’s like piloting a plane and leaving your hand resting on a landing gear switch it’s like oh i’ve never

⏹️ ▶️ John city turns on just get your hand off of it do you need to use landing gear not then just don’t have your hand on the switch oh i’ve never

⏹️ ▶️ John accidentally turned it on just don’t do it um rev matching

⏹️ ▶️ John if i had fancier cars i would probably be more into it but my cars tend to be

⏹️ ▶️ John have so little power that this is not that big an issue that said it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of hard not to rev match once you get them the hang of stick cause you know

⏹️ ▶️ John again that you are about to shift and you know the engine is not going

⏹️ ▶️ John fast enough for the year you’re about to engage like you’re about to you’re about to pass right you downshift at least i do in my

⏹️ ▶️ John wimpy cars have to downshift to pass anybody that’s always going to happen right and when i downshift i know

⏹️ ▶️ John that the engine needs to be going way faster in this year than it’s currently going you’re going to get a head start on

⏹️ ▶️ John that you’re going to say well engine get ready cause cause if you don’t do it and you just downshift you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to especially in my wimpy cars you have to baby the clutch engagement so you don’t suddenly lurch

⏹️ ▶️ John because you know it’s that the delta is big and

⏹️ ▶️ John the like there’s not a lot there’s not enough torque and power to sort of overcome that easily so you have to baby

⏹️ ▶️ John the engagement and if you don’t baby the engagement then it’s lurch and it’s like why not just cut to the chase and get the engine up

⏹️ ▶️ John to speed that i know round about the speed and the question is how do i know what speed needs to be you just know it needs to be faster

⏹️ ▶️ John than it is right the bad part about this is depending on the size and

⏹️ ▶️ John weight of the fly wheel in your car flipping the throttle like this was something when i was looking that

⏹️ ▶️ John cool what was it the t fifty what the hell is the name of that car from the guy who made the mclaren

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey oh yeah i not you’re thinking of about

⏹️ ▶️ John it either has like no flywheel or such a lightweight flywheel that it would literally be impossible for a human to blip

⏹️ ▶️ John the throw because you’d flip it and then it would go up briefly and then go right back down before you could even ended

⏹️ ▶️ John and engage the gear right so it all depends on you having a fly wheel in your car that says okay when i blip the throttle

⏹️ ▶️ John i can then go back to changing the gear and get it into gear before the engine reverts to its

⏹️ ▶️ John previous speed and in you know in this super fancy two million dollar supercar with like no fly wheel you

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t do that and in modern cars they they do the rev matching for you a lot of times i have never actually

⏹️ ▶️ John driven a car with its own rev matching but certainly the engine computer can do it better than you

⏹️ ▶️ John ever will because it knows the actual speed needs to be and be you can do that while your feet are doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other things yeah i’ve i’ve driven one my dad’s corvette has optional automatic rev matching

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i think it’s on by default but it’s fairly easy to turn off in fact yeah his his car which is a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seven speed stick has paddles behind the wheel as though

⏹️ ▶️ John it was i was just going to say you know you know why they do that you know what has paddles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there yeah it’s for the rev matching it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John so it’s no no no those paddles are the paddles that you use to shift the car if you don’t get it with the

⏹️ ▶️ John stick and sure and gm being the cheap car

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco company you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want to make a separate steering whee without the paddle so they just want to have the same parent so they just take the paddles and they put

⏹️ ▶️ John they just write ref match on and they connect the wires to different function you literally have two gigantic petals the

⏹️ ▶️ John same exact pedals that you get for shifting that corvette if you didn’t have a stick and they just put a white rev match at

⏹️ ▶️ John the top of each one which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is i don’t think it’s a reach at the top and otherwise i think we’re the same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing in a zero and because that video had about the zero one was i was laughing at that part like why how does this

⏹️ ▶️ John car have these giant paddles like oh so it can be the same steering wheel so they don’t have to have a second

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part they turn this bug into the future

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway but his car does do it and it was more accurate than when i did it but i think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me that’s part of the fun is is trying to get a good rev matched downshifts and so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i quickly disabled it although if i was like taking it to the track or something like that i would probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey leave it enabled

⏹️ ▶️ John her to i am terrible at i don’t know if it’s because i have big goofy feet i don’t know if it’s because my little hondas

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have petals spacing or positioning that is amenable to it but i am so bad at it that i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John i’ve never found it to be i’ve never been successful enough at it to find it to be enjoyable

⏹️ ▶️ John or useful with the things i already described just like human rev matching and

⏹️ ▶️ John careful clutch engagement you and the fact that i’m not really going that fast in an accord

⏹️ ▶️ John like i’m not unsettling the chassis through

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey corners as i feel i kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John relate to the people who are saying this is kind of more of a racing thing like if you worried about the chassis becoming unsettled in

⏹️ ▶️ John corners slow down yeah it’s a cool thing to play with or whatever and maybe if

⏹️ ▶️ John i had a sports car again if i had a car with more power or a car that even had the notion that you might attempt this i

⏹️ ▶️ John assure you that none of the hondas that i’ve ever owned had a notion that people can try to heal to i find it

⏹️ ▶️ John very difficult to do and i’m not good enough at it to ever do it so i set that side double clutching i only

⏹️ ▶️ John put on here because i used to know a lot of people back when i was a teen who would swear by driving

⏹️ ▶️ John their car with syncros and double clutching they said yea you don’t need to do it because the sinkers and by the the sinkers of the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that make sure that when you engage the gear that the actual gears that are going to engage with each other are turning at the

⏹️ ▶️ John correct speed so you don’t have so you don’t take a tooth gear turning faster than another tooth gear and try to match them

⏹️ ▶️ John right double clutching in the big trucks i don’t actually know how they work in behind scenes what it’s basically like

⏹️ ▶️ John like katy said you take it out of the gear and put it in neutral and then you have to bring the engine up to speed so

⏹️ ▶️ John that when you engage the gear the two years that you’re goin to engage are moving at the right speed i think you are actually also responsible

⏹️ ▶️ John for modulating the throttle to get the engine up to speed and then you engage and if you don’t match the

⏹️ ▶️ John speeds and you try to engage them you are attention essentially taking two big metal gears moving at different speeds and trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to match them and you get terrible noises and you destroy stuff right but for cars with syncros i

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t know if i just there’s this crop of weirdos that i went to high school with but like all you should totally double clutch your

⏹️ ▶️ John car was synchro so i learned how to do it when i was learning stick and i did it for a little bit and as far

⏹️ ▶️ John as i can tell it’s absolutely one hundred percent pointless like it’s worse it’s slower it’s not fun

⏹️ ▶️ John to do and there’s no reason to do it so are my advices for unless you’re driving a

⏹️ ▶️ John semi which by the way they probably have an automated transitions now anyway but like unless you’re driving a semi

⏹️ ▶️ John that requires it double clutching is not a thing you need to know exists or learn how to do um starting

⏹️ ▶️ John in second third yeah i mean this is where you have to know your car’s power we have always been having weak cars starting

⏹️ ▶️ John in second for sure and the snow is a thing you should do although i would still say that i had to start on a hill and

⏹️ ▶️ John second many

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey of my cars

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t really have enough power to do that snow or no snow and burn out you’ll just wear through

⏹️ ▶️ John your tires don’t do that it’s all about getting the power to the road but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fun burn outs

⏹️ ▶️ John are fun margo you have anything to add i tell us we should all buy drive electric

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cars i mean yeah i mean a electric cars do neatly solve many of these problems but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway if you’re going to drive stick like don’t let this conversation turn you off of it this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco may sound like it’s a crazy thing to do that’s really hard and you used to do all these things to do it right and the fact is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco none of this is necessary you don’t have to do any of this and you’ll be fine like i drove a stick

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for you know all that time and and yet never had to do almost any of this

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff that that that’s that’s the thing i think about stick shift driving mark of you saying you didn’t know or care about this

⏹️ ▶️ John and you were fine in my experience when someone says i know how

⏹️ ▶️ John to drive shift stick there is a wide range of experiences you would get by driving

⏹️ ▶️ John in the car with them like lots of people like wider than you would expect everyone like

⏹️ ▶️ John oh well you know you don’t ever know how to drive and people are good drivers and bad drivers but the range

⏹️ ▶️ John of like like the things i’ve seen people do in a car where there are sensibly driving sticks

⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes boggle my mind i don’t know if it’s because if it’s a gap in learning or no particular standards

⏹️ ▶️ John or just people have bad habits but boy like i

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t you know i’m not just saying like valets who like just have to know enough stick to park a car like people who own stick

⏹️ ▶️ John shift cars and you get in the car with them and you just like biting your tongue it’s like what what are you doing

⏹️ ▶️ John and like you’re jostling around and they don’t know how includes the out the clutch and everything i don’t know why that is obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s much less of an issue now because nobody has sticks of cars and i feel like the longer this goes on and the rarer

⏹️ ▶️ John sticks become the more this problem will solve itself because the only people who have them are hopefully people will know how to

⏹️ ▶️ John do it but but i don’t even know but anyway sorry sorry to interrupt you i agree with you you don’t need to know all this weird

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff you can be happy and just drive a stick and you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be fine yeah like like marcos i mean this is expert level and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey extraordinarily fast data dump as to what john and i think about driving a stick but really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and truly you don’t need eighty percent of this and you probably won’t hear eighty percent of this because margot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t care about it and he’ll cut it before it gets released

⏹️ ▶️ John to ski this in you will hear it from other people who drive sick though that’s why i think it’s important to cover the point you’ll find

⏹️ ▶️ John somebody who looks like a wise expert and will tell you that you should double cut your car with syncros and just don’t listen to that person like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why i think it’s worth knowing all the stuff mostly just so you know to dismiss it but i do think the engine breaking one is that’s the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to know how to do if you don’t feel like your car is less safe cause you you have way worse breaking

⏹️ ▶️ John power way longer breaking distances and it’s just not it’s not a good habit do not do not stop

⏹️ ▶️ John your car from eighty on the highway down to zero with the clutch depressed the whole time that’s bad

⏹️ ▶️ John for your brakes it’s bad for your life learn how to learn

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco learn how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco engine brake yeah that’s actually that’s the one thing that like when i was a newbie stick driver

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like for my first few years driving stick i didn’t do that and then i eventually developed that skill and that was like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a significant betterment of my of my stick driving abilities

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i actually don’t think it makes any difference in terms of the ability for the brakes to stop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the car like i don’t think the brake boost is in most cars anyway driven by like engine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or pm or if it is it’s a very small

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John difference

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not the brake boost it’s just that the engine like it’s not so when you connect

⏹️ ▶️ John a fast moving transmission to a slow moving engine some energy has to be spent to speed

⏹️ ▶️ John that engine up that’s energy coming out of your speed of the vehicle like the kinetic energy is

⏹️ ▶️ John being is being used you know the kinetic energy as translated through the wheels through the axle into the transmission

⏹️ ▶️ John is being expended spinning the engine up from one thousand or pm or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John drop to up to like two thousand right and then you do it over again because you shift to

⏹️ ▶️ John a lower gear the engine goes down to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco one thousand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not only that but but the engine vacuum is doing way more than just like spinning up the engine every time

⏹️ ▶️ John you shift yeah i mean i was saying like spinning the engine because it’s moving slowly there’s lots of things that make it

⏹️ ▶️ John hard to spin the engine up like you know you’re not giving it gas to spin the engine up the entire amount of energy is

⏹️ ▶️ John coming from the speed of the car so you are bleeding off speed by using it to

⏹️ ▶️ John constantly spin the engine up from a lower rpm right to a hire one and then repeating that process

⏹️ ▶️ John right and then the second thing is even if the brakes have the ability to stop in the same distance there

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to produce more heat in those brakes if you have wimpy brakes lots of small cars have very very wimpy brakes and

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re stopping from high speed they’re not good at you know they get they get hot they get worse there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John brake fade right especially if you’re not in a sports car that’s used to that

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco type of thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John they ask the breaks to do if you ask the brakes to do the whole job themselves you’re asking a lot of your brakes again

⏹️ ▶️ John especially if you drive a dinky economy car that has tiny tiny brakes maybe drum bakes in

⏹️ ▶️ John the back in the back and tiny little you know disks with you know wimpy calipers in

⏹️ ▶️ John the front

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah it also it becomes more reasonable or more more extreme if you think about like suppose you’re driving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down a mountain and so you’re you’re going downhill for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fifteen minutes straight like you’re if you’re riding only the brakes that whole time they’re going to overheat yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re going to have overheating problems and that’s that’s no

⏹️ ▶️ John good they’re going to they catch fire just like in foreign versus fear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right yeah there you go and and finally with regard to engine breaking like what if you’re slowing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down but then suddenly there’s some sort of hazard that you need to speed around

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so you want to be in the most appropriate gear for the current speed in the car because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’re caught unawares and you’re in like neutral or something and then you suddenly need

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to use the accelerator to swerve around a child or a dog or something that’s not a good

⏹️ ▶️ Casey place to be you want to be in gear already so all you have to do is slide your foot off the break and under the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gas to get power as opposed to being a neutral way too high a gear such that you’re either

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to bog when you try to go or you’re just not going to have any forward motion at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all yeah and if you’re in gear if you’re in the correct gear for the whatever speed you’re decelerating and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you will have shockingly instant torque response when you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John hit the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accelerator

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m not sure about the the accelerating around child scenario but that’s what i was getting up before about the sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of habit of downshifting just constantly being in the appropriate gear for your speed is just a good habit like even even

⏹️ ▶️ John like i said even if you’re just down shifting through the gears even if you don’t even engage the clutch between some of them just constantly

⏹️ ▶️ John being in the right gear is getting you so that if you did need to use the gas

⏹️ ▶️ John for whatever reason it’s ready to go and you don’t have this process because the process is not just getting into gear

⏹️ ▶️ John the processes decide what gear is appropriate for the current speed put the car into that gear and then

⏹️ ▶️ John you can go whereas if you just routinely go row up and down the gears in order based on your speed

⏹️ ▶️ John as just sort of like a habit that you just do without thinking about you will always be in the appropriate gear

⏹️ ▶️ John for the speed and ready to go again and that’s you know again that’s what an automatic transmission or an automated manual

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what they’re doing for you right there and of course they can shift away faster than you can and all the other things but

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s your hands hint on engine braking

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco automatic

⏹️ ▶️ John transmissions do not put your car in neutral they they use the engine to help break the

⏹️ ▶️ John car they as you slow down automatic transmissions will downshift to be ready to be in the appropriate gear and

⏹️ ▶️ John do you know so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so will dc ts yeah like there you can’t just put the d ct in neutral very easily and coast to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a stop like it really fights you on that really it really wants you to go down to the gears

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you sit on