Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

392: Corporate Relationship Counselor

Spending Casey’s money, driving stick, and the continuing battle between Epic and Apple.

Episode Description:

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MP3 Header


  1. 🔦 💸
  2. Hi. This is Marco Arment. 🖼️
  3. Sponsor:
  4. Big rumor dump already wrong
  5. Apologies to Socrates
  6. Big Sur touchability
  7. John’s rubber problem
  8. Sponsor: Raycon
  9. Epic v. Apple, continued
  10. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  12. #askatp: Identifying monitors
  13. #askatp: Design by programmer
  14. #askatp: Switch from Windows
  15. Ending theme
  16. #askneutral: Driving stick

🔦 💸

⏹️ ▶️ i’ve made a couple of just absolutely terrible errors i have

⏹️ ▶️ asked mark arment for advice on things to buy related

⏹️ ▶️ to absolutely nothing at all you know a member at p membership is a thing if you wanted to go to a t do

⏹️ ▶️ shine you could join to and be a member of this very pro is recommending relatively inexpensive things now

⏹️ ▶️ though right and in my defense the most expensive pair of headphones i recommended was only seven

⏹️ ▶️ hundred dollars oh the head i thought you were talking about the flashlight too was asking about the both the case

⏹️ ▶️ case he was asking about the flashlights too i’ve brought this on myself i have made this bad this is not really

⏹️ ▶️ marcos all just ignore his headphone advice when he tries to get you buy a thousand dollar phone you can just ignore

⏹️ ▶️ that go to the next none of them were a thousand dollars and i recommended one that was like a hundred and eighty and one that

⏹️ ▶️ was like three hundred one was eight ninety nine or something no i said that that’s what i used but

⏹️ ▶️ i wasn’t saying he should buy it it’s a different kind than what he wants it’s just i’ve known

⏹️ ▶️ marco for twenty twenty five years something like that at this point maybe more than that yeah

⏹️ ▶️ maybe but anyways you would think well i guess the first fifteen of those years didn’t count

⏹️ ▶️ he had money but exactly i think in the last ten years i would know

⏹️ ▶️ better than to ask marco for advice and in marco’s defense both of these times i

⏹️ ▶️ specifically solicited the advice i have not pulled any we well i shouldn’t use

⏹️ ▶️ that phrase turn of phrase i have not made any moves on on either of these items but i did put a

⏹️ ▶️ seventy dollar flashlight which if i recall put in the show notes i put a seventy dollar flashlight

⏹️ ▶️ quietly into the amazon shopping cart and within a day

⏹️ ▶️ aaron said to me what is the seventy dollars less why do you think you need

⏹️ ▶️ it i hope none of the product photos have like a person’s hand for scale because that’s not going to help

⏹️ ▶️ your case it’s really not it’s like next to a quarter it’s like wait what is this the doll

⏹️ ▶️ so they’re they’re way smaller than you

⏹️ ▶️ think they’re oh my word anyway you would think after all this time i would know better

⏹️ ▶️ than to ask marco for help because the problem with asking marco for help when it comes to purchases is that you

⏹️ ▶️ will be spending considerably more money than you would like to spend well do you want something

⏹️ ▶️ good it’s like people come to me and they’re like what should i buy that’s good and then i tell

⏹️ ▶️ them and they’re like that’s a lot of money yeah cause it’s good here there’s a discontinuity

⏹️ ▶️ or at least an area of the graph where the two lines diverge and do not do

⏹️ ▶️ not act the same rate and very often your recommendations are past that point i wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ say very often the problem though is that it is often it is often if not nearly always

⏹️ ▶️ that the thing that marco suggests is very very good is better but

⏹️ ▶️ you know the it was like quality and price were tracking pretty nicely with each other with a similar slope and then

⏹️ ▶️ at a certain point price starts going up a little bit steeper and then you just follow that graph out to the right for a while and

⏹️ ▶️ all of a sudden you’re like well it is better like my mac pro basically that’s where i’m at so

⏹️ ▶️ yeah right yeah like you can talk once every ten years i buy

⏹️ ▶️ something like marko how often do you buy a flashlight or a pair of headphones not that often fair enough yeah i solicited

⏹️ ▶️ this advice because um it’s a long and involved story that i will cut down as much

⏹️ ▶️ as possible basically there’s an old trade train tunnel that is being turned

⏹️ ▶️ into a rail trail park thing and by giving by donating a very

⏹️ ▶️ small amount of money i have gotten the the perk of being allowed to tor

⏹️ ▶️ it before it opens presumably this fall and this train tunnel i mean it’s something like a mile

⏹️ ▶️ long and it’s pitch black in there and i have flashlights but i have crappy

⏹️ ▶️ like ten or twenty dollar flashlights i don’t have something that would illuminate a mile long train tunnel

⏹️ ▶️ and this flashlight will not well might but probably won’t illuminate a mile long train tunnel

⏹️ ▶️ no it’s not made for long throw it’s made for wide illumination of where you are which actually is probably better

⏹️ ▶️ you can get some that are made for like super long throw but then they have like a narrower beam sure and so

⏹️ ▶️ i ask as marco hey you know i need something that’ll last me something like you know an hour and a half and that’ll be pretty damn bright

⏹️ ▶️ what he you got and so he recommended and we will put in the show notes the olight sr two

⏹️ ▶️ eleven fifty lumens usb magnetic rechargeable variable output sides olight s two r baton

⏹️ ▶️ two is that what i said you said s r two which sounds like a car

⏹️ ▶️ sr seventy one right it’s not a car or a flashlight he was thinking art and so

⏹️ ▶️ but the funny thing is i wanted i wanted to see an example of it in use

⏹️ ▶️ and marco very graciously said he would record a video and did end up recording a video of it

⏹️ ▶️ at night time and it was very impressive that will not be in the show notes but i you know

⏹️ ▶️ did a youtube search to see like an example of this in action and of course do you remember the

⏹️ ▶️ name of the dig it up the name of the channel i ended up on it was like sensible prepper or something like

⏹️ ▶️ that as in like doomsday prepper and i realized oh this is not good this is

⏹️ ▶️ not good for me no well there’s there’s the problem with researching any kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ you know now let me get a nice flashlight flashlights are part of the quote every day carry

⏹️ ▶️ community and that very quickly leads you to guns and gun people and i just

⏹️ ▶️ have i want nothing to do with that side of it and so like it’s really hard to get good

⏹️ ▶️ opinions and reviews of anything that even goes near the everyday carry

⏹️ ▶️ type category of like useful little gear things to have that may be fit in the back and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ like you so quickly fall into like a crazy rabbit hole of communities and

⏹️ ▶️ priorities that you don’t have and don’t want to be that’s so true but but

⏹️ ▶️ he’s a sensible prepper so it’s okay yeah right yeah yeah that’s like

Hi. This is Marco Arment.

Chapter Hi. This is Marco Arment. image.

⏹️ ▶️ i have a big apology to make we have gotten

⏹️ ▶️ so much feedback way more than i expected on an audio

⏹️ ▶️ problem in last week’s show indeed last week they there were

⏹️ ▶️ some i believe cicadas is that right john never found him but yeah some kind of critter yeah

⏹️ ▶️ some kind of you know august bugs it sounded like you know sakata bug noise on parts of john’s

⏹️ ▶️ track and i noticed this during the edit and normally i’d be able to remove such

⏹️ ▶️ a noise during the edit and nobody would ever know this time i tried a couple of ways to remove it

⏹️ ▶️ my usual techniques to do it and i just couldn’t get it out without like totally

⏹️ ▶️ crushing the rest of his high frequency audio and making him sound very weird and so

⏹️ ▶️ i thought you know what it won’t be that big of a deal let me just leave it in maybe nobody will notice

⏹️ ▶️ everybody notice we’re still getting messages on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ by email saying like hey there’s some kind of noise something wrong with the recording and john track people

⏹️ ▶️ saying it was really hard to listen to that they thought something was wrong with their car

⏹️ ▶️ and so i am so sorry i later edited i later re edited

⏹️ ▶️ the file and so if you re downloaded it after a certain point you

⏹️ ▶️ would have gotten the edited version that didn’t have the arcade noise basically after the first few hours

⏹️ ▶️ of it being out some people recommended some different techniques what i ended up doing

⏹️ ▶️ was basically a bandpass but notching out like only

⏹️ ▶️ like the seven to eight thousand ish frequency range that these bugs were in

⏹️ ▶️ it was a method that was working better than what i was doing before so anyway so the fixed version is out and

⏹️ ▶️ i greatly apologize the funny thing is i was actually really nervous that people would notice an audio problem last

⏹️ ▶️ week because i was using a new microphone for the first time in probably four years

⏹️ ▶️ oh i didn’t notice no one thank god i think i was kind of hoping nobody would like have

⏹️ ▶️ a problem with it or it wouldn’t be a big shift for anybody but it mattered a lot to me to get

⏹️ ▶️ this right and we got zero people noticing that because everybody was nosing these very loud

⏹️ ▶️ bug noise on john’s track and answer some questions from the chat room and elsewhere yes

⏹️ ▶️ i mean literal insects during literal living insect creatures outside my house

⏹️ ▶️ somewhere making noise and yes i have all my windows closed and no this is not normal

⏹️ ▶️ the reason i suspect cicadas is because i think in my area it’s a cicada season like i pretty

⏹️ ▶️ much never see cicadas round here we found a couple of dead ones on the sidewalk and our travels over the

⏹️ ▶️ past couple of weeks so i think this is you know anomalous like it’s unexpected

⏹️ ▶️ for us to have any bugs that make this level of noise and further unexpected for them to be so loud that

⏹️ ▶️ you know despite being closed into my little podcasting sarcophagus here with all

⏹️ ▶️ the windows closed and no air conditioning on and everything all sealed up still they were so loud

⏹️ ▶️ they were just coming through the windows and walls of this building into into my

⏹️ ▶️ microphone that should only be picking up like my voice from six inches away oh yeah right you have the world’s

⏹️ ▶️ most sensitive microphone just you have a large diaphragm condenser like

⏹️ ▶️ that should pick up everything in the universe and for some reason every other

⏹️ ▶️ week it doesn’t every other week your audio is perfect and i have no idea how cause that kind of microphone i can’t

⏹️ ▶️ get to work right in my room because i’m in a room with like carpeting and a book shelf

⏹️ ▶️ and weird shaped walls and there’s lots of stuff to absorb the sound but you know i mean yes it does pick up a lot but when

⏹️ ▶️ i get far away from the mic it gets quieter right so this bug like it was loud for a bug

⏹️ ▶️ but still it’s outside and all the windows are closed and so it’s not valid i’m amazed i’m kind of amazed

⏹️ ▶️ that it showed up on the track at all but obviously it did yeah so anyway my apologies

⏹️ ▶️ to everybody i will be a little more aggressive in the future about trying to remove

⏹️ ▶️ things like that that i think nobody will notice

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Big rumor dump already wrong

⏹️ ▶️ mac rumors not the

⏹️ ▶️ website just the rumors about macintosh s apparently today is the day and as

⏹️ ▶️ we record this at nine o’clock in the evening on august nineteenth it i guess you know

⏹️ ▶️ west coast is always a little behind and so maybe something will happen but we were told

⏹️ ▶️ at some point recently that we would get a new imac neuro pod studio new homepod two new homepod

⏹️ ▶️ mini have any of those things happened gentlemen we got a new imac but not on august

⏹️ ▶️ nineteenth and yet i just wanted to swat this down i don’t want to attribute to any source like whatever because

⏹️ ▶️ we we talked about it on the on whatever that show was like a couple a couple of episodes

⏹️ ▶️ ago just because it was such a huge dump of rumor info it’s like wow someone’s really

⏹️ ▶️ laying it all on the line with all these announcements and dates and now i think we can just ignore it forever because august

⏹️ ▶️ nineteenth has come and gone and these things didn’t happen and even though the mac did happen it didn’t happen on august nineteenth so

⏹️ ▶️ so much for the nose dramas like prediction filled with dates

Apologies to Socrates

⏹️ ▶️ and then would you like to add a clarification about the thing you were trying to quote last week

⏹️ ▶️ this is the reason i think people should listen to our podcast because we’re the only podcast in

⏹️ ▶️ which one of the hosts will try to cite a half remembered saying from a shareware

⏹️ ▶️ website that has really comes from something in ancient history that i couldn’t even remember and then a listener

⏹️ ▶️ will write in to tell us i know which saying you were talking about and also

⏹️ ▶️ turns out as they say the popular notion of the saying

⏹️ ▶️ is a mistranslation so here we go this nate mavis who says the quote you are reaching for is from

⏹️ ▶️ socrates not aristotle and it’s from apology thirty b i have no idea about how classics work

⏹️ ▶️ apology thirty b that they like number and letter anyway that’s a thing you have

⏹️ ▶️ contributed as some ancient scholars have being virtuous will lead to wealth and other good things this was me

⏹️ ▶️ talking about like apple should concentrate on just trying to make good stuff and and then they’ll be successful because of that instead of the

⏹️ ▶️ other way around right says but that’s an incorrect translation socrates says rather that

⏹️ ▶️ virtue makes wealth good not virtue will make wealth and other good things for you

⏹️ ▶️ think of what you tell a kid playing against cheaters if you cheat to win winning isn’t good playing by

⏹️ ▶️ the rules virtuously is what makes winning good so m f burned proposes since his interpretation

⏹️ ▶️ in a paper from twenty twelve which we were linked in the show notes and no other tech podcast will

⏹️ ▶️ and and nate says i spent the trunk of my dissertation defending

⏹️ ▶️ it in detail and now i’m in software i leave it up to you which interpretation is more relevant to apple situation today

⏹️ ▶️ so there you go i meant the first sense that being virtuous will lead to wealth and other good things but

⏹️ ▶️ the other perhaps more correct interpretation is also applicable i think

⏹️ ▶️ that is actually very interesting and i agree you will not hear anyone else to talk about that

Big Sur touchability

⏹️ ▶️ oh my goodness so there was some hubbub in the last day or two and i saw that this

⏹️ ▶️ video existed but i didn’t get a chance to watch apparently somebody has dropped a big served

⏹️ ▶️ onto a lenovo touch screen enabled i presume think pad but a lenovo laptop

⏹️ ▶️ and the touch screen worked question mark what’s going on here

⏹️ ▶️ so first of all it may surprise i have no idea if this video is real um but if it is real the

⏹️ ▶️ like the pitch of the videos of course if a touch in laugh at the ark and you touch it like maybe you would just interpret

⏹️ ▶️ that in mouth as mouse movement or mouse clicking and then you know why wouldn’t it work but if you watch the video the

⏹️ ▶️ whole point is that the person in the video performs gestures like pinch to zoom and like

⏹️ ▶️ the maps application in macau and the gestures work and in the big

⏹️ ▶️ served on his laptop again i have no idea if it’s real or not the reason i included here will put a link to the videos

⏹️ ▶️ just so you can see what it might look like for for you know what

⏹️ ▶️ in what context might touch be useful on a mac with a touch screen because

⏹️ ▶️ whether it’s real or not you can see someone using a laptop with macaws on it with real macaws absent occasionally

⏹️ ▶️ pawing at the screen now the performance and responsiveness seems atrocious it’s almost like

⏹️ ▶️ is it working is it not working and you see it’s kind of working so it’s it looks really terrible but a

⏹️ ▶️ it’s it’s on lenovo who knows what kind of support this is b it might not even be real and c it’s

⏹️ ▶️ a bath so i thought it was mostly a curiosity but it’s interesting to see like one of the first videos

⏹️ ▶️ in the wild showing real presumably real hardware and real software ah showing

⏹️ ▶️ someone touching a mack in the screen additionally there’s some changes

⏹️ ▶️ with regard to the menubar icon spacing i can never remember what these things

⏹️ ▶️ in the upper right re called what is the menu menu extras menubar icons i think

⏹️ ▶️ manufacturers is what apple calls them or what they used to be called under the covers anyway we talked about this when we talked about

⏹️ ▶️ big sur that yes they’re you know all the different things being spaced out for touch right and we mentioned the men this is not a new feature

⏹️ ▶️ the very first big survey had this in it but here is ricardo mari on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ complaining about the new spacing not because you know necessarily he minds that it’s like spread

⏹️ ▶️ out so it’s easy for your fingers to touch but now they take up more room and so here’s a little screen shot

⏹️ ▶️ you can see in his tweet where he says my icons used to take up about this amount of room but now that they all have a

⏹️ ▶️ huge amount of white space between them on a thirteen inch laptop like the icons take up

⏹️ ▶️ like more than half of the menu bar and so if you have a nap with a lot of menus they’re going to clash in the middle

⏹️ ▶️ and your icons are going to get hidden and it’s inconvenient so this is this is the downside to sort of spreading

⏹️ ▶️ macos out for finger spacing or whatever whatever is there on whether they’re doing for finger

⏹️ ▶️ spacing out bottom line is they’re praises out there’s all the new age controls the menu bar can be enlarged the menu

⏹️ ▶️ icons are spread out from each other and if you have a laptop with a small screen suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ it feels even smaller because there’s all this extra white space between things so it would be kind

⏹️ ▶️ of neat to have an option to sort of collapse that space thing if you don’t have a touchscreen

⏹️ ▶️ mac or if you just you know don’t plan on touching you menubar icons but somehow

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t see that option forthcoming yeah it’s so hard

⏹️ ▶️ not to conclude that touch is coming to macos because

⏹️ ▶️ it seems like so many of these changes are curious if not

⏹️ ▶️ dumb if if that wasn’t the end goal and typically apple does quietly

⏹️ ▶️ orchestrate their future plans you know things like auto layout is a great example you know

⏹️ ▶️ it used to be that apple didn’t care if you laid everything out you know by the pixel

⏹️ ▶️ or point and then they started saying before we got bigger phones you know you might want to

⏹️ ▶️ think about like a relative layout where you’re where you’re anchoring things to other things and that might be

⏹️ ▶️ a good call and then fast forward a few months and suddenly we had bigger iphones and so it it certainly

⏹️ ▶️ seems that that we’re getting touch green max or some sort of alternate input mechanism

⏹️ ▶️ if not touch but i don’t know if not this seems like such a

⏹️ ▶️ weird choice to just add all this white space everywhere

John’s rubber problem

⏹️ ▶️ finally john you are having problems with your robbers yes yeah

⏹️ ▶️ this is i spent all that time and we talked about it on the show i don’t know six months

⏹️ ▶️ ago or something picking out a mouse trying a bunch of mine seeing which i felt comfortable

⏹️ ▶️ because i wanted a new one with my fancy new computer when i got my mac pro i was using an ancient mouse and it was just not great

⏹️ ▶️ ah and i eventually settled on the microsoft precision mouse which you know had some trade off

⏹️ ▶️ out of all the ones i tried was the one i liked the best i even after that i’d used it for like a month or so i

⏹️ ▶️ even considered doing the cheese greater thing the actual physical thing that grates cheese from a can

⏹️ ▶️ and buying multiples right because i’m like well i like this mouse i found a mouse that

⏹️ ▶️ i like that took a lot of you know but dose if i can find i

⏹️ ▶️ but i found one i like so why don’t you know maybe they’ll stop making this one or maybe they’ll change it in a way i don’t like maybe i should buy

⏹️ ▶️ multiples but i didn’t because i figured well i don’t know i used the last mouse for like fifteen

⏹️ ▶️ years or something i don’t you know i’m not going to wear i don’t need to buy a new one like

⏹️ ▶️ fifteen years go by i need to get another mouse i’ll do the research again but now for a little

⏹️ ▶️ while i felt like there was like some kind of schmitz or something on the side of my mouth and occasionally i would like scrape it

⏹️ ▶️ with my finger now to like the schmutz off of there and i would like go away with it but eventually i felt some of this

⏹️ ▶️ thing under my thumb under my you know my left thumb gripping the mouse and i tried smoothing it away and it

⏹️ ▶️ didn’t really go away and so then i said let me pick this let me look at it i looked at the mouse and it wasn’t shot the

⏹️ ▶️ side of this microsoft mouse the entire like left side and the right side for that matter is

⏹️ ▶️ like rubber coated it’s like plas the whole mouse is plastic but it’s like rubber coated plastic on the sides for grip which

⏹️ ▶️ i like it’s very comfortable and it’s a very smooth rubber but it is apparently

⏹️ ▶️ so soft and smooth in velvety that the act of me just using my

⏹️ ▶️ mouse and having my left thumb in like that same position on the side of the mouse you know how i

⏹️ ▶️ use it i’m a side mouse gripper kind of person has worn hasn’t worn

⏹️ ▶️ it away but has worn a little like first it’s like a little bit of a slightly shinier smooth

⏹️ ▶️ spot and then there’s like a little lip that i’m it’s not a lip it’s not the edges it’s the center of

⏹️ ▶️ the rubber and i have just made like a little rough patch with my thumb and i’m like oh no i haven’t even

⏹️ ▶️ had this mouse that long this is not going to last fifteen years so i don’t know what i’m going to do about this i mean the

⏹️ ▶️ mouse is fine and if now that i just know that’s what it is i don’t pick at it right it’s not like i’ve worn through

⏹️ ▶️ it in a hole and it’s not like it’s peeling off it’s just a little bit worn in that area if it would wear

⏹️ ▶️ evenly you know like a baseball glove or something just kind of wear down and get a patina that

⏹️ ▶️ would be fine but when it wears so that it has like a little a little flaky kind of

⏹️ ▶️ rough bit i don’t really like that so i don’t know what i’m going to about this but i just wanted update everybody on

⏹️ ▶️ my mouse woes that apparently buying five different mice and trying them each for weeks

⏹️ ▶️ was insufficient and this is the thing with i think about this with product reviews all the time

⏹️ ▶️ if you’re doing a product review for a product of your website or even just for yourself and your life

⏹️ ▶️ it’s very difficult to know conclusively what is a good product from just

⏹️ ▶️ using it for like a couple of weeks especially if it’s something that you intend to keep for a long time right like say

⏹️ ▶️ it he’s greater for your kitchen that kind i love to say that every time now i

⏹️ ▶️ mean i can’t cause i want you to know anyway if you buy it you grade a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ cheese you do timing test you like this was the easiest we got the least tired doing and it made the even event

⏹️ ▶️ you know gratings whatever it was machine washable and it was like all all this you know

⏹️ ▶️ just washer safe rather um you say all these things about it like this is the one and then you publish

⏹️ ▶️ that article and then you know you go off and forget about it as one of your employees takes home the cheese

⏹️ ▶️ grater and then six months later it breaks i feel like you have to go back to the article and say don’t buy

⏹️ ▶️ the cheese grater breaks in six months right it’s not the best one yet it had the best performance when it was working like

⏹️ ▶️ a like cases p m w yeah it’s good when it’s working if it dies all the time

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not actually the best choice so i’m i’m disappointed in

⏹️ ▶️ my microsoft mouse i did some googling and i found someone with the exact complaint

⏹️ ▶️ ah for a microsoft mouse saying i used it for a little while and it wore in the exact same spot but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ not actually my mouse it’s an earlier microsoft mouse with rubber stuff on the side i think they just use very soft

⏹️ ▶️ touch rubber for it to be like expensive feeling and nice and it is expensive feeling and nice but i think

⏹️ ▶️ that soft touch rubber is not particularly durable so and it’s not like

⏹️ ▶️ you can replace the rubber on the side or anything so i don’t know what i’m going to do i like this mouse enough that i would probably just

⏹️ ▶️ like buy a new one every couple of years if after a couple of years it becomes dire

⏹️ ▶️ but yeah so hard to find good mice these days

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⏹️ ▶️ our show

Epic v. Apple, continued

⏹️ ▶️ the drama

⏹️ ▶️ continues actually if you give me about ninety seconds i need to go pop some more popcorn

⏹️ ▶️ epic an apple still killing each other where did we leave

⏹️ ▶️ all where where were our intrepid heroes the last we spoke i don’t even remember it’s been such a blur of

⏹️ ▶️ anger it was basically the very first night that this had come out and they had sued

⏹️ ▶️ apple and google im right but nothing else had really happened yet

⏹️ ▶️ a fortnight had been taken down from the store but if you still had it installed it

⏹️ ▶️ was fine and that’s all that had happened there had been the lawsuits there had been the video release fortnight was off the store

⏹️ ▶️ but if you still had it you could still play it right and there were there was a bunch of contacts

⏹️ ▶️ that we didn’t actually have time to get to and we’ll probably go into it shortly here

⏹️ ▶️ but yes so casey sorry what’s what’s new this week so i may leave something

⏹️ ▶️ out but as best i understand what’s new this week is that uh you know like we said fortnight is removed from the

⏹️ ▶️ app store and apple has told epic that they have until a week from friday

⏹️ ▶️ so the twenty eighth to basically cut the shit out and start acting

⏹️ ▶️ nice again and if they don’t apparently their entire development account

⏹️ ▶️ their developer account will be taken away which means they won’t be able to use

⏹️ ▶️ xcode well they won’t be able to do anything really with exco they won’t be able to do anything with any apple

⏹️ ▶️ platforms and that would be a pretty serious bummer and i’m still not clear

⏹️ ▶️ whether or not there would be a trickle effect on the unreal engine which we can talk about a little

⏹️ ▶️ bit more what that is in a moment but this is the as i think gruber has described

⏹️ ▶️ it and or maybe it was jason snell the nuclear option that you know this is

⏹️ ▶️ the apple saying you can go outside and play hide and go screw yourself option and

⏹️ ▶️ so that’s what apple’s done and there’s been you know there’s been

⏹️ ▶️ a lot of all of the talking heads like us going round and round and round about what

⏹️ ▶️ makes sense what’s fair what’s not fair and i think there’s a lot more to talk about

⏹️ ▶️ about this case specifically but god helped me for the first time i think in my entire life i actually

⏹️ ▶️ sat down earlier tonight and tried to do like a poor man’s mind map to try to figure out

⏹️ ▶️ what is really going on here because i feel like there are maybe

⏹️ ▶️ five different arguments that are all happening at the same time and are all interrelated

⏹️ ▶️ about you know whether or not thirty percent is fair whether or not apple view is fair whether or not apple is being

⏹️ ▶️ retaliatory baby and so on and i was going to try to

⏹️ ▶️ force us to pick these apart one by one and i just don’t think we’ll be able to do it because they so are so intertwined

⏹️ ▶️ but something i think that’s been very difficult for me is picking

⏹️ ▶️ apart and separating these different concerns and and

⏹️ ▶️ maybe we’ll try to do that just try to keep an eye on that as we as we discuss further

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t know that’s kind of the executive summary where would you gentlemen like to go from here john

⏹️ ▶️ do you have immediate thoughts yeah like i think before we start talking about the other stuff we’ll just talk about

⏹️ ▶️ the threatened punishment right so the apple said was it were they going to terminate their developer account

⏹️ ▶️ um and so i mean the first question may be is there anything that apple do in the answer of course before you

⏹️ ▶️ even look it up your nose yes because all those terms and conditions that everybody just clicks through and every service that you ever click

⏹️ ▶️ through terms and conditions on i guarantee you they all say we can do whatever we want and you have no recourse

⏹️ ▶️ like that’s what they all say um and you agree to that because what are you going to do not agree i mean you could not agree

⏹️ ▶️ and not be a developer right but like most companies are able to put language in all their agreements

⏹️ ▶️ for all their sort of third party you’re going to do stuff on our platform that basically says

⏹️ ▶️ if you if we don’t like what you do or even if we do like for any reason we can just wake up in the morning and

⏹️ ▶️ decide you know what we don’t like you today we can take away all your things because that’s just the nature of the agreement

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s got the things you want access to those things this is the agreement right so yes the agreement says they can do this and then any agreement

⏹️ ▶️ says this is what it means if we do this if we terminate your account and you will lose access

⏹️ ▶️ to the following programs technologies and capabilities um obviously in these legal agreements

⏹️ ▶️ very often terms are defined elsewhere so you have to kind of look up what they mean so this first thing that i’m

⏹️ ▶️ going to read is going to sound bad but i’m sure it’s defined elsewhere to be not as broad as you think so you

⏹️ ▶️ will lose access to the following all apple software comma now obviously

⏹️ ▶️ you’re not losing access to all apple software because that would mean like you’d go into the apple store to

⏹️ ▶️ try to buy an iphone they’d be like are you tim sweeney get out of here his access or they’d give you

⏹️ ▶️ an iphone with no software on it like you can’t have this iphone but no software for you right away all

⏹️ ▶️ the sentences differently it’s all apple software comma sdks comma a p i s comma

⏹️ ▶️ and developer tools now i think that maybe just poorly written or apple software is a term to find elsewhere though the

⏹️ ▶️ s is not capital so anyway you don’t get to use the developer tools and stuff i’m skipping over a bunch of stuff just to get

⏹️ ▶️ to the meat stuff um one of the things you lose access to is the notarization service for macos

⏹️ ▶️ as i remember it’s not like you have an ios developer account and a macos developer

⏹️ ▶️ account and tvs developer account although at various times there have been distinctions

⏹️ ▶️ related to platforms you essentially have a developer account a developer account

⏹️ ▶️ is a thing that puts aps on the stores now companies can have multiple developer accounts i imagine depending on how many

⏹️ ▶️ legal entities they have and will get all into that in a second but anyway they have a developer account right

⏹️ ▶️ so this agreement is not specific to saying you know if you get a developer account you can

⏹️ ▶️ make any kind of apps you know marco can make a backup i can make an i s up like from our own single

⏹️ ▶️ developer count if we want it’s not limited by platforms so when they terminate the agreement of course it’s going to say

⏹️ ▶️ we terminate your access to the notarization service you can’t make notarized apps because you don’t have a developer

⏹️ ▶️ account right and it seems weird because we’re talking about an ios app you know

⏹️ ▶️ fortnight and i s and ipad os right but now you’re losing access to macos

⏹️ ▶️ things like you can’t notarize a macos app like you weren’t even mad at us about a maca right we’re talking about

⏹️ ▶️ it doesn’t matter this is the developer agreement you lose access to developer

⏹️ ▶️ id signing certificates so not only can you not notarize an ap which is like sort of giving it the

⏹️ ▶️ apple stamp of approval by sending it out to apple and then they sign it and send it back you can’t even sign

⏹️ ▶️ it yourself with your own developer id certificate there ideas where the developer can to sign an application

⏹️ ▶️ and give it to somebody and it’ll run even though apple hasn’t signed off on it right um

⏹️ ▶️ you lose access to the universal app quick start program which is a thing

⏹️ ▶️ that gives you the d t so if you’ve got a d d k you have to send it back to us you can’t have that any more

⏹️ ▶️ and then finally this is a little extra fu for epic you lose

⏹️ ▶️ access to engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of unreal

⏹️ ▶️ engine on mac and ios hardware so what apple is saying is up until now we

⏹️ ▶️ here at apple have worked on our stuff unlike our os and our three engines

⏹️ ▶️ and our drivers and all that stuff or three you know driver software and everything

⏹️ ▶️ so that it performs well with unreal engine because unreal engine which we’ll talk about in a little bit is a very

⏹️ ▶️ popular engine for three applications on many platforms and it has been important for apple

⏹️ ▶️ for unreal engine based software to run well on mac and iowa hardware

⏹️ ▶️ so what apple is saying is not only are we going to terminate all this stuff and not give you access to any of

⏹️ ▶️ our dev tools or anything also we’re going to stop making sure that unreal engine

⏹️ ▶️ runs really well on our products which i mean on the one hand it’s

⏹️ ▶️ like well most people don’t get that kind of service from apple where you make some kind of third party library and then apple spends

⏹️ ▶️ its own resources making sure that your library runs really fast on their hardware but

⏹️ ▶️ duchess goes to show the nature of unreal engine and what case he was getting at before is

⏹️ ▶️ like okay given all this this is this is the agreement they take away all this stuff what does that actually mean

⏹️ ▶️ aside from like fortnight’s not in the ap store anymore does it mean for example that other applications

⏹️ ▶️ that use unreal engine are going to have problems and you know briefly unreal engine is a three d engine

⏹️ ▶️ that you can license from unreal from epic um and used it

⏹️ ▶️ to build the game on because the engines are really hard to make and epic epics on real engine has been really good for

⏹️ ▶️ many many years comes all sorts of stuff comes with an entire development environment for you to make your game it’s

⏹️ ▶️ how a single person developer shop can make a good looking three the game they that single person is

⏹️ ▶️ not writing the three engine from scratch they’re licensing an engine and then building a game on top of it and it gives

⏹️ ▶️ you much more than just three the engine gives you physics and scripting and like i said an entire id it’s a very complicated

⏹️ ▶️ big thing um and the unreal engine action has really nice licensing terms where i think

⏹️ ▶️ it’s like free to use until your game makes over a million in revenue and then after that the epoch ts like

⏹️ ▶️ three percent of your revenue or something but it’s used all over the place it’s used on consoles it’s used on pc

⏹️ ▶️ games and it’s used in iowa’s games and mac games you know the whole nine yards right so on

⏹️ ▶️ the app store now are many many games that are built on unreal engine does

⏹️ ▶️ this happening to epoch like them their developer account being terminated does that mean that anything

⏹️ ▶️ bad happens to applications not made by epic but that happen to use

⏹️ ▶️ unreal engine this short answer is like immediately no like so

⏹️ ▶️ they they terminated epochs account to those games all break no they’re all fine but the

⏹️ ▶️ medium to long term answer is that if if you would imagine that

⏹️ ▶️ this developer count is the only way that epic has to continue development of

⏹️ ▶️ unreal engine on apple’s platforms eventually apple to release an os

⏹️ ▶️ where the unreal engine and or the tools stop working or have show stopping bugs in them

⏹️ ▶️ and the game developers would be like oh i need to update my game for the new whatever os

⏹️ ▶️ i’ll need the new version of unreal that works with the new whatever as an epic would say

⏹️ ▶️ sorry we can’t actually make a new version of the unreal engine for whatever because whatever is an

⏹️ ▶️ apple os and we literally can’t build anything for apples we don’t have access to the dev tools

⏹️ ▶️ if you take a very narrow reading yeah that’s the thing that could happen but in reality

⏹️ ▶️ all right so you terminated apple terminated this developer account

⏹️ ▶️ it’s kind of a game of whack a mold say okay well what if epic just makes another developer again we

⏹️ ▶️ notice they use the same legal entity okay well what if epic’s parent company was it ten cents

⏹️ ▶️ or whatever makes has another shell company and they get a developer account and they become the unreal

⏹️ ▶️ development company that has suffered from epic and apple’s not mad at them like this can go around for ever and ever like

⏹️ ▶️ bottom line is there’s no practical way for apple to stop continued

⏹️ ▶️ development of unreal engine in apple’s platforms right legally speaking technologically

⏹️ ▶️ speaking they could chase each other forever there’s no way to actually stop it

⏹️ ▶️ assuming both parties are invested in making this happen right

⏹️ ▶️ so the punishment given everything that i say the punishment is actually kind

⏹️ ▶️ of bad but it’s not the end of the world and it probably won’t

⏹️ ▶️ affect everybody who built on unreal engine but probably is where the damage is done say

⏹️ ▶️ it never does affect any other person who builds on unreal engine if they think

⏹️ ▶️ it might affect them they might be like do i want to use a real engine because they’re fighting

⏹️ ▶️ with apple and i’m not quite sure how it’s going to turn out it seems like it’ll probably be fine but now i have doubts

⏹️ ▶️ and maybe i’ll use unity instead which is a competing with three engine that works on apple’s platforms and other you

⏹️ ▶️ know piecing game consoles and stuff right so this is actually a

⏹️ ▶️ fairly strong move from apple what they’re doing even if it never actually

⏹️ ▶️ quote unquote does anything eh of course damages epoch because you know fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ gets off the app store and they can’t make the money from people using fortnight on ios

⏹️ ▶️ devices and people who use ios devices spend a lot of money so that’s bad for them and b it

⏹️ ▶️ makes people you know in epic’s words and all their laws which damages their reputation and makes people

⏹️ ▶️ more wary about using building games on top of unreal engine because unreal engine

⏹️ ▶️ is made by the company that’s fighting with apple and maybe something could happen could affect my game

⏹️ ▶️ and so i think this is the nuclear option maybe

⏹️ ▶️ but it’s like it’s a strong move it’s something that has to you know epic has

⏹️ ▶️ to you take this seriously again epic could have anticipated the to do this move because of course you know what what

⏹️ ▶️ does epoch have that apple can take away from him there are their apps in the store and the dimensionally

⏹️ ▶️ developer count right so i’m sure they plan for this but this i think a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ watching this are thinking this is where each is going to blink because apple in their benevolence

⏹️ ▶️ you know put a pressure is an asterisk on the

⏹️ ▶️ app store designed to be safe and blah blah blah as much how great the app store is the apple goes on to

⏹️ ▶️ say this is quoting from their little thing this and to the press we very much want to keep the company meaning

⏹️ ▶️ epoch as part of the apple developer program and their apps on the store the problem epli

⏹️ ▶️ epic has created for itself is one that can easily be remedied if they submit it up to their app that reverts

⏹️ ▶️ it to comply with the guidelines actually says reverted to comply with the guidelines

⏹️ ▶️ they agreed to which apply to all developers i love that every time apple references develop

⏹️ ▶️ the guidelines after the congressional hearing they always say the guidelines which by the way

⏹️ ▶️ are totally the same for everybody the guidelines which applied everyone equally the guidelines which as we know are are

⏹️ ▶️ the same for every single person the guidelines which are have no exceptions like they own they had to modify to drink you

⏹️ ▶️ know you can say it all you want now but you can every time you say guidelines you can say which apply

⏹️ ▶️ to everyone equally it doesn’t make it true you can’t just that that’s

⏹️ ▶️ setting that aside so the apples giving them an out first of all they gave him this deadline whenever it was the twenty

⏹️ ▶️ eighth and then they’re saying just fix your game just take out the little thing they let you pay with a credit card and change it

⏹️ ▶️ back to the way it was and all will be forgiven and so a lot of people are thinking all right well maybe epoch has

⏹️ ▶️ made its point and maybe epoch will continue to pursue the lawsuits but maybe just to come back to a

⏹️ ▶️ safe position while the lawsuits grind on through the courts maybe they just release

⏹️ ▶️ a version of fortnight that removes the or they don’t have to release it they can just turn off the service thing that enables

⏹️ ▶️ enables that future right no more paying with a credit card and getting twenty percent of its back to normal

⏹️ ▶️ or they could just stick it out and say we’re willing to take the potential reputational damage we’re willing to have

⏹️ ▶️ ten cent open a shell company to take on unreal engine development like whatever we’re we’re in it for the long

⏹️ ▶️ haul so i don’t expect this is the end of the story but it’s a bold

⏹️ ▶️ counter move by apple and you know the more more next week

⏹️ ▶️ i assume i think bold is being generous here

⏹️ ▶️ um this should erase any doubt in

⏹️ ▶️ anybody’s mind whether apple is the i b m in nineteen

⏹️ ▶️ eighty four like yes clearly they are oh my god they are really

⏹️ ▶️ not doing well in the court of public opinion right now like this they couldn’t possibly have

⏹️ ▶️ made a worse counter move if they’re trying to at all seem

⏹️ ▶️ like the good guys and by the way the reason i think people are saying they look like a bully just to

⏹️ ▶️ make this very clear is that you know the fight such as it stands like you could just say

⏹️ ▶️ okay well you submitted an apt that violated the rules and were angry at you and we pulled the ap right and

⏹️ ▶️ that could be like you know that’s it like well you did a bad thing with ap and we rejected your

⏹️ ▶️ ap right that’s all they had to do it well i’m saying is that like that would seem proportional

⏹️ ▶️ it’s like you submitted a bad apple you rejected your bad apple where and you broke our agreement like you did a sneaky thing

⏹️ ▶️ you broke the agreement and technically yes we have according to our agreement we can do all sorts of stuff because of course

⏹️ ▶️ our agreement tells us we can do whatever the hell we want in fact like i said apple can terminate the agreement for any reason if they

⏹️ ▶️ just feel like it right there doesn’t even have to be a reason but as margaret was saying it seems

⏹️ ▶️ mean to say well we’re just fighting over this one at you really got to you got to terminate my whole developer account

⏹️ ▶️ like we don’t just develop fortnight there are other games by us on the store like we do other things

⏹️ ▶️ that’s why it seems like bullying pieces like okay well this happens all the time and

⏹️ ▶️ the only time we’ve seen entire developer account termination is if you are like putting up malicious

⏹️ ▶️ software which i think would be a proportional response you have shown you are not responsible enough to have developer account

⏹️ ▶️ you are putting out software that spies on people tries to steal information yeah but but but you

⏹️ ▶️ know talk about treating all developers equally facebooks accounts should have internat ed many times but

⏹️ ▶️ like and lots of big companies who do all that their accounts are fine yeah so

⏹️ ▶️ i mean that’s that’s the thing like it’s a measure of how big is apic is epic’s big a space

⏹️ ▶️ book now are they as important apps platform as space book now is the important netflix probably not right

⏹️ ▶️ like and you can kind of go by the market cap of the company or kind of go by like you can you can size it up epic is

⏹️ ▶️ a big important company and their parent company is even bigger and even more important but they’re not facebook

⏹️ ▶️ right so anyway that’s why it’s that’s why we’re all saying this seems this seems like

⏹️ ▶️ bullying because they had a response that would seem more proportional that would fix the problem

⏹️ ▶️ which is like hey someone’s someone’s apples on our store violating the rules which this is another thing not

⏹️ ▶️ to go over an attention here but like i’m slightly confused about this alright so the apps not on the store but if you still have it you can

⏹️ ▶️ play it like that’s the kind of compromise we would expect because apple doesn’t want all these kids to get mad because they can’t pay fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ right but on the other hand we can’t have epic you know breaking the rules right

⏹️ ▶️ but those kids who are still playing fortnight they can still use their credit card whatever to get twenty percent

⏹️ ▶️ off right yeah cause and that’s the thing about like the ap you know enabling new features

⏹️ ▶️ after it goes out which is the thing that all aps do but is technical against the guidelines if you read them right

⏹️ ▶️ that apple actually doesn’t have a good way to stop those transactions

⏹️ ▶️ other than pulling the app entirely like breaking it from everybody which they don’t want to do because then people would really be angry

⏹️ ▶️ like hey my kid can’t play fortnight right now i’m super anger and i want to say could adults play fortnight to whatever

⏹️ ▶️ like the users should be very upset if you broke the thing so apple has to just kind of grin

⏹️ ▶️ and bear it and wall this grinds on yes new people can’t get fortnight but honestly

⏹️ ▶️ a lot of people already have fortnight devices it is a very popular game and in the meantime

⏹️ ▶️ they can all be buying vbucks for twenty percent off and that’s got a burn apple right so i feel

⏹️ ▶️ like maybe this you know bullying response is in response to sort

⏹️ ▶️ of epoch having one over on them because they can’t you know it would hurt apple

⏹️ ▶️ more to literally stop fortnight from working for everybody which has one more question when

⏹️ ▶️ they terminate the developer account before i stop working for everybody that’s a good

⏹️ ▶️ question so as far as i know so like there’s there’s multiple

⏹️ ▶️ ways of you know apple developer account expirations last termination so if your

⏹️ ▶️ account just expires like if you don’t renew your developer account your account expires you

⏹️ ▶️ can’t submit new bills to your app and your app disappeared from the store but anybody who has it it can

⏹️ ▶️ still run and you can still read it from the purchases tab same thing if if your developer

⏹️ ▶️ certificate just expires and you still have your account but like your distribution certificate that you built the last copy

⏹️ ▶️ of the app with if that expires nothing bad happens you just have to make a new one before your next app update

⏹️ ▶️ but otherwise like it still stays in the store people can still download it and use it etcetera that’s all fine

⏹️ ▶️ if apple revokes your certificate from like in like a

⏹️ ▶️ like a malware kind of way where they they actually like revoke the thing that says it’s okay to run this

⏹️ ▶️ then you have a charlie monroe situation which we i still want to talk about then

⏹️ ▶️ you have a situation where the app on ios i think just crashes on launch

⏹️ ▶️ and just refuses to run without any explanation on the mac that’s when you get the dialogue

⏹️ ▶️ that says this app will damage your computer and you should move into the trash i have so much to say about that

⏹️ ▶️ but anyway that’s like revocation at the at apple’s evel not just like you know

⏹️ ▶️ this is no longer valid but like all previous sign things are now invalid from this

⏹️ ▶️ app so i don’t know what happens if apple terminates your

⏹️ ▶️ developer account but not for like a malware kind of reason i

⏹️ ▶️ think if you have the app it continues stirrings i think we’ve seen this like with various

⏹️ ▶️ times whenever whenever people have tried to like put emulators in the ios app store and they’re they’re up for like

⏹️ ▶️ a day and the apple figures it out and takes them down i think they still run after that for people

⏹️ ▶️ who already had downloaded them so if that’s the case i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ think all all copies of fortnight out there would be remote killed if their

⏹️ ▶️ developer account got terminated i mean this so what you described are the various options what

⏹️ ▶️ we don’t know is inside apple when when you hit the big terminator count button like does

⏹️ ▶️ that make any which of those things does that make happen if any obviously apple can do whatever they want regardless

⏹️ ▶️ of what that button normally does they can decide all a cart we’re going to turn all over count and we

⏹️ ▶️ either are not going to revoke your certificate but it’s on the table is one of their options and

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not clear from their threat what they’ll choose to do when they do this termination

⏹️ ▶️ to give an example of emulators like i download an nes emulator like on day two of the iphone or something somebody put

⏹️ ▶️ up on any simulator and that worked for years now when somebody put up the net of his early days but

⏹️ ▶️ when whoever put up the nes emulator that’s a violation of the rules but it’s also not

⏹️ ▶️ malware but it’s also kind of a blatant violation of the rules and there’s also intellectual property things

⏹️ ▶️ it’s kind of a judgment call whether apple to think would apple have terminated that developer’s

⏹️ ▶️ account again it’s not a clear cut case of like you’re trying to do something like really terrible you know

⏹️ ▶️ like steel people’s personal photos or something like that right um

⏹️ ▶️ but you are breaking the rules so i would imagine that they didn’t terminate that developers count they just rejected

⏹️ ▶️ that application right but who knows right but either way it seems clear that the they

⏹️ ▶️ can choose to let the app live on but the caviar on the face in the case of fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ if you let the app live on literally millions of people will continue to be able to buy pass

⏹️ ▶️ on that purchase and get vbucks for twenty percent off giving epic money obviously it’s not sustainable

⏹️ ▶️ long term because you know you want new customers and stuff like that but boy it really makes me think

⏹️ ▶️ that i can’t imagine apple tolerating three more years of

⏹️ ▶️ a hundred million people by passing there in that purchase just because they refuse to reject

⏹️ ▶️ the certificate for the game but on the other hand does apple want to break fortnight for every single one

⏹️ ▶️ of his customers so they’re starting to get in between a rock and a hard place here

⏹️ ▶️ that’s the least of the problems i mean my big problem with this so lots of people

⏹️ ▶️ have pointed out what epic’s real motives here might be yeah they want to make they want to

⏹️ ▶️ bring their appstore to io s and take twelve percent of everybody’s you know cut instead of having to pay apple thirty percent

⏹️ ▶️ whatever that to me is separate that’s like what epic wants

⏹️ ▶️ to do with their money and everyone else’s money is not really

⏹️ ▶️ material to this conversation the what’s material to this issue is like first of all like whether

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s rules are anti competitive and whether they’ve over reached or whether it’s too big now

⏹️ ▶️ and has to change or whatever else and then secondly from that they’re their treatment

⏹️ ▶️ of epic in this whether that’s kind of you know quote fair or not whatever

⏹️ ▶️ people think and i think no matter what you think of epic cause i don’t know anything about epic i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t care but what when i see what apple’s doing here if you look at it

⏹️ ▶️ kind of a big picture scenario here apples in a really questionable

⏹️ ▶️ place with anti trust and control and monopoly

⏹️ ▶️ and anti competitive behavior i think it’s well supported by lots of evidence

⏹️ ▶️ around the world that you the u s congressional committee their position

⏹️ ▶️ is worthy of arguing is worthy of consideration whether regulation

⏹️ ▶️ needs to be applied it is it is not a given that they are a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ percent in the right with with the status quo so epic has filed a lawsuit

⏹️ ▶️ to challenge this whatever you think of epic and how they’re doing this the idea

⏹️ ▶️ of filing a lawsuit to challenge apple’s policies and control

⏹️ ▶️ in this area i think is a valid argument to have i think that deserves

⏹️ ▶️ to be heard and to be argued what apple is doing is doing in response

⏹️ ▶️ to this is such a bullying move that what they are effectively

⏹️ ▶️ doing is shutting down the potential to have this be argued in court

⏹️ ▶️ they are throwing such a bullying move here that what

⏹️ ▶️ they’re basically saying is we’re not even going to allow this to get anywhere

⏹️ ▶️ near arguing in a court or in front of a judge or anybody we’re going to destroy you your

⏹️ ▶️ entire business first so that nobody can challenge us well they’re not destroying their

⏹️ ▶️ business but they are doing the strongest move they have available in the attempt to scare them into presumably not pursuing

⏹️ ▶️ lawsuit there’s no apple i can actually do to stop them from i mean you can sue anybody for anything right

⏹️ ▶️ so but this is an intimidation tactic like here is our threat here is a big hammer we are

⏹️ ▶️ going to do this thing here are the consequences of this thing and the consequences are far reaching and damaging

⏹️ ▶️ to your business again and it’s not going to destroy epic epic as you know this is not

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t think apple’s platforms are their primary source of money although might be almost fifty percent of their money

⏹️ ▶️ getting close to it anyway um but epic if they’re stubborn can

⏹️ ▶️ plow ahead with their lawsuit and by the way is a ten cent is their parent company they’re just an investor

⏹️ ▶️ they don’t have a majority share share but ten cent is very big as what i was getting it um so this is

⏹️ ▶️ this is it’s an intimidation move it’s a buying move it’s a it’s a counter move in the current thing just to see if they

⏹️ ▶️ blink and apple is trying as we said force trying to give them an out it was also at

⏹️ ▶️ the end of that other little things we hope you are able to cure your cure your breaches of the apple program

⏹️ ▶️ license agreement and continue to participate in the program what apple wants is for them to get back in line and

⏹️ ▶️ it’s saying here’s the carrot you get back in line you can continue having a fortnight we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ go back to making sure on real engine works real well you keep your developer count we go just go back to the

⏹️ ▶️ way things are right and you know so yeah i think it’s it’s not going to immediately

⏹️ ▶️ destroy epic’s business it’s not that big of a hammer but it’s trying to scare

⏹️ ▶️ them off now such let’s say they do this they say okay okay apple fine here you go where we changed fortnight

⏹️ ▶️ back we didn’t even have to release a version because it’s all on suicide we changed it back to the way it was and now it’s

⏹️ ▶️ just back then that purchase and you get your thirty per cent the lawsuit still exist this

⏹️ ▶️ the letters that apple has sent as far as i’m aware i do not say hey epic and also by the way you have

⏹️ ▶️ to drop your lawsuits right so i don’t know if you want to put that in to

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s credit calm or whatever and i don’t know if there’s been a back channel but apple is not making

⏹️ ▶️ dropping the lawsuits in an explicit condition of this it’s clear that they want them to go away and it’s clear they’re

⏹️ ▶️ trying to intimidate epic as much as they possibly can but

⏹️ ▶️ it doesn’t like epic could release a new version and say okay we’re in compliance now

⏹️ ▶️ see you in court well but but you know epic i think the

⏹️ ▶️ reason why they didn’t just file a lawsuit you know without changing

⏹️ ▶️ their rapid they didn’t just file as saying you should change your policies and then keep their ap

⏹️ ▶️ compliant instead they intentionally provoked the rule so

⏹️ ▶️ that their app would be cut out of the store so that they could be damaged so they could have standing

⏹️ ▶️ to sue i’m not a lawyer so forgive you know i’m going to try to not get too far into the legal side of this

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t know but i think their case is probably easier to make

⏹️ ▶️ if they are more damaged like if they can show that apple had so much power

⏹️ ▶️ that they got you know that they lost millions of dollars a day or know you know whatever

⏹️ ▶️ with this one thing that actually might help their case or it might

⏹️ ▶️ help illustrate that apple has too much power now when i look at this move by apple this

⏹️ ▶️ this developer account threat my first thought was oh no apple lost

⏹️ ▶️ their cool if you’re fighting with somebody and they lose

⏹️ ▶️ their cool usually it’s good for you because if they lose their

⏹️ ▶️ cool they will start making moves that are maybe hastily

⏹️ ▶️ thought out that are maybe you know going to hurt them or can be used against

⏹️ ▶️ them later and so in this case it looks like apple lost

⏹️ ▶️ their cool with this and made a threat that was really big

⏹️ ▶️ and really over the top i think and i don’t think it

⏹️ ▶️ was a good idea for apple to have made this threat because not only does it make them

⏹️ ▶️ look even more like jerks and honestly i think it kind of makes them look desperate but it

⏹️ ▶️ also shows to the world to all the world’s governments

⏹️ ▶️ to all the world’s consumer protection agencies to all the world’s congresses and legislators

⏹️ ▶️ and to the courts quite how much power apple has

⏹️ ▶️ and it’s too much and that’s the whole thing right now with the legislation possibly

⏹️ ▶️ a regulation around them they do have too much power they should

⏹️ ▶️ be regulated they should have an injunction granted against this action while this lawsuits pending

⏹️ ▶️ they have too much power and they are abusing it for anti

⏹️ ▶️ competitive purposes and so for them to have made this extra move you

⏹️ ▶️ know taking it off the app store as you said really that’s all they had to do and then you know let the

⏹️ ▶️ laws who proceed and let that work out over time to also then threaten this

⏹️ ▶️ i think makes the case better for everyone who is fighting against

⏹️ ▶️ them to say no look they need to be regulated they are acting as an abusive monopolar

⏹️ ▶️ monopoly now they are trying to actively shut down not only competition but

⏹️ ▶️ legal challenges against them in ways that they probably shouldn’t be able to so i think

⏹️ ▶️ this actually hurts apple’s case and makes it even more likely that they will

⏹️ ▶️ be more heavily regulated down the road that’s why i think this is a bad move and the they

⏹️ ▶️ i think they will come to regret this yeah it was clear from day one that epic

⏹️ ▶️ doing this stuff like you know they knew they were going to kicked out they weren’t surprised about what happened and

⏹️ ▶️ getting kicked out was part of their plan because like you said like it’s not it’s not legally speaking you need to do that

⏹️ ▶️ because you can say here’s how we would experience harm but you have a stronger case you can say here’s how we did

⏹️ ▶️ experience harm it’s not a hypothetical anymore it’s a literal thing but if you argue in court if we did this then apple would

⏹️ ▶️ that and apple could say how do you know we would do that we do weird things all the time you have no idea what we would do it’s like well

⏹️ ▶️ here’s what you actually did the downside for epic especially with what you know if we’re right about this thing

⏹️ ▶️ still being in the store with the twenty percent option is is now apple can show damages too as they can say the for the

⏹️ ▶️ last year that this this has been you know in court a epic is bit on

⏹️ ▶️ the store not paying us or thirty per cent which they should be as part of the agreement so we’ve continued to allow users

⏹️ ▶️ to download their app and hear how much money we lost from vbox so apple

⏹️ ▶️ has can cite damages as well not again not just a hypothetical apple could say well if we let people do that they wouldn’t give

⏹️ ▶️ us a thirty per cent and say actually they didn’t let us give our thirty percent and we were nice and didn’t kick it off the store cause

⏹️ ▶️ we didn’t want to anger or use us produce how many millions of dollars we lost right so the double edged sword there

⏹️ ▶️ but for sure having all of these bad things happen in all cases like they did

⏹️ ▶️ with google to they went on google he got kicked out of the sore they sued gole they’re going to sit the fact they were kicked out of the store like

⏹️ ▶️ it’s you know it’s a clear strategy you just it’s a little bit tricky something

⏹️ ▶️ people have discussed on and off about this epic is complaining about

⏹️ ▶️ all the stuff at the appstore they take too big a cut they have too much to yada yada lots of people say well epic and

⏹️ ▶️ unreal and all that stuff they participate in the game console world as well and the game console world

⏹️ ▶️ is essentially exactly like the ap star you can’t release something for the xbox or the playstation

⏹️ ▶️ without going through sony sony decides what goes in all platforms sony’s rules about qualifying

⏹️ ▶️ your game for the playstation are way more draconian than apples like you know

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not there’s a reason the app store has you know hundreds of thousands or millions of apps

⏹️ ▶️ and the playstation does not have millions of games right sony tightly

⏹️ ▶️ controls their their their story you know back in the day it wasn’t an ap store was

⏹️ ▶️ like literal plastic discs but these days this digital version of all these games and you can also buy plastic disks and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ the whole of the discussion for the time but anyway game consoles are you know very much like this and

⏹️ ▶️ the game console vendors to platforms take a big cut according to apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ research in that paper they put out the cut is actually similar to the aps or thirty percent ish depending on all sorts of

⏹️ ▶️ deals or whatever um so why isn’t epic suing microsoft why aren’t they suing

⏹️ ▶️ sony like you you why are you suing them they’re doing exactly the same thing to you right they

⏹️ ▶️ take a percent the same big chunk out of your thing they don’t let you do all the stuff you want to do they don’t let epic have its own

⏹️ ▶️ you know game store inside playstation like every single thing they’re saying about apple is

⏹️ ▶️ the same situation why aren’t you suing them right and i think before we get the anti trust which

⏹️ ▶️ i think you know marco has already weighed in on and i’ve mostly not been weighing in on yet because i think

⏹️ ▶️ there’s so much talk about before even considering antitrust you know getting back to my argument from last week

⏹️ ▶️ the reason that epic is not suing

⏹️ ▶️ sony and microsoft it’s it’s the same it’s the same root problem that apple has right

⏹️ ▶️ the platform owners apple sony microsoft their job is to

⏹️ ▶️ try to create that when win win situation where developers users and the platform

⏹️ ▶️ are all succeed together right and you may

⏹️ ▶️ look at it and say well why is epoch man at apple not madison that’s

⏹️ ▶️ the job of the platform owner to make sure that people aren’t so mad that they

⏹️ ▶️ sue them right and so the simple explanation is that despite

⏹️ ▶️ epic having butted head heads with console makers at various times in fact having very similar sort

⏹️ ▶️ of head butting arguments about internal purchases and selling inside outside star like these things

⏹️ ▶️ have played out in the console world in fact sometimes specifically with epic many times

⏹️ ▶️ the game console platforms have better managed their relationship this little triangle

⏹️ ▶️ relationship between users developers and the platform they’ve managed it better enough better

⏹️ ▶️ enough not like their developers aren’t mad at them sometimes not like users aren’t mad at them sometimes but they’ve managed it

⏹️ ▶️ better enough that they’re not in the situation right it’s not that the rules are different it’s that

⏹️ ▶️ the people who are the platform owners have better than apple been able to say

⏹️ ▶️ it’s our job to make sure that people don’t get so pissed that they sue us right

⏹️ ▶️ and and that sort of relationship like if you want to pin it down to like well what are they done it’s better

⏹️ ▶️ game console makers understand gaming and the gaming market better than apple does in

⏹️ ▶️ many ways and one of those ways is that they understand it’s a lot it’s an entertainment industry right and

⏹️ ▶️ it works more like you know making movies and tv shows where those platforms

⏹️ ▶️ actively cultivate talent and participate in this win

⏹️ ▶️ when scenario where they will help pay for the development of a flagship game for a timed exclusivity

⏹️ ▶️ right they will recruit talent they will invest in studios that make games they

⏹️ ▶️ will help you market your game they will sell branded versions of your console that are like you know

⏹️ ▶️ gears of war branded right all this relationship between sony and developers is why developers

⏹️ ▶️ hate sony less than apple or why epic does anyway right because sony is there saying

⏹️ ▶️ here’s a bucket of cash with a dump over your head you know where microsoft says you know

⏹️ ▶️ develop gears of war here’s millions of dollars to develop but keep it on our platform only

⏹️ ▶️ we’ll make a special xbox that gears of war branded and we’ll sell it in the store with gears of

⏹️ ▶️ war and epic is like yes we like you this is good and apple’s like put your

⏹️ ▶️ app in a store it is thirty percent and ninety nine dollars a year like it’s different it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ that type of relationship like consoles have first party games consoles have time platform exclusives

⏹️ ▶️ mostly that’s i’m not saying that apple has to do that and not saying just about

⏹️ ▶️ games or whatever i’m saying is that the game console makers have better manage their relationships

⏹️ ▶️ and that’s that’s what apple is doing wrong they’re not they’re not making sure everybody is

⏹️ ▶️ happy many things spin out of that once once the war starts once the shooting starts right

⏹️ ▶️ it just gets worse and worse and like margaret said losing your cool is not good i wish i could remember the specific example there’s

⏹️ ▶️ actually a specific example of epic intentionally going against the rules and butting heads with one of these

⏹️ ▶️ console makers and they settled it more quietly

⏹️ ▶️ and more amicably than apple has done so far i mean this is over yet right but i’m saying

⏹️ ▶️ like you’re always going to have flare ups and the big players like epic who are cranky you’re always going to but heads

⏹️ ▶️ with you you’ve got to manage that right you know at the end of my uh out of the possible

⏹️ ▶️ thing do you want to be right or do you want to be happy do you want to just be like well well we’re just sticking to our

⏹️ ▶️ principles and then get sued and have this giant disaster are you going to say like even though i think i’m right let’s

⏹️ ▶️ get back to the part where we all win let’s get back to the part where we at least find

⏹️ ▶️ an acceptable compromise because we get an advantage from you being on our platform and you get an advantage

⏹️ ▶️ from being on our platform and our customers want your game so let’s facilitate gotta get back to that wind and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ essentially you know it’s not as if that what apple is doing is well a separate argument to be

⏹️ ▶️ like is apple is it more important or worse for apple to be doing versus game console or whatever and

⏹️ ▶️ again i’ll say that for later but just bottom line the game console makers

⏹️ ▶️ have historically done a better job of managing their relationships and i feel like apple needs to go to

⏹️ ▶️ a corporate relationship counsellor missus epics

⏹️ ▶️ on the couch how do you feel when a when apple tells you they’re going to turn your couch epics like feel

⏹️ ▶️ bad apple

⏹️ ▶️ how you appreciate i don’t know this could be all skin i can’t do it on the fly yeah and this is the

⏹️ ▶️ kind of thing that apple is historically not good at like the like apple

⏹️ ▶️ dealing with other companies in general it’s not very good at especially when

⏹️ ▶️ the negotiations are actually negotiations and compromises on both sides

⏹️ ▶️ as opposed to apple just being able to dictate things exactly that’s the way apple likes it they’re real happy with

⏹️ ▶️ those relationships yeah right when it comes to apple having to work with companies where they don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ all the power in in the discussion they’re historically quite bad at that actually and by the

⏹️ ▶️ way that that is that scenario happens all the time in the app store when it’s apple versus an individual developer

⏹️ ▶️ apple tends to find a way to deftly handle those conflicts because they have all

⏹️ ▶️ the power and so they’re not usually super jerky about it at least not intentionally sometimes again charlie monroe

⏹️ ▶️ accidentally jerky right but in general in these scenarios where its single lone developer

⏹️ ▶️ versus giant apple apple finds a way to get past them we’ve talked about a million

⏹️ ▶️ of those apps or things over the years like oh some developer had a thing with apple but because

⏹️ ▶️ apple has literally one hundred percent of the power in every possible way they get resolved

⏹️ ▶️ and we move on because apple essentially just runs you over right you can fly or you go

⏹️ ▶️ away but either way it’s sold but when it’s not one dinky little elope instead of another

⏹️ ▶️ billion dollar corporation apple doesn’t know how to use his words and talk about his feelings and it upper

⏹️ ▶️ oh my word yeah i don’t know it’s it’s tough

⏹️ ▶️ because on the surface on the surface i can see why apple

⏹️ ▶️ is acting the way it is i completely disagree with their course of action but i can i

⏹️ ▶️ can understand it at a surface level you know epic did something

⏹️ ▶️ that is expressly forbidden you know they they not only did they

⏹️ ▶️ do this like run around where they downloaded this update directly into the app which i know for

⏹️ ▶️ games that sort of kind of allowed but it seems like the way they did it probably wasn’t allowed but beyond that

⏹️ ▶️ they had this third party you know payment system that is expressly not allowed and

⏹️ ▶️ it seems like there should be a consequence for that i mean that seems pretty straightforward and

⏹️ ▶️ then they escalated by suing apple well you know what you right back

⏹️ ▶️ you know now you’re not allowed in the store any more again like on the surface this i can

⏹️ ▶️ understand how these this seems like a reasonable series of actions and

⏹️ ▶️ i just i feel like nobody at apple has taken a step back

⏹️ ▶️ and said you know as as we said last time are we the baddies um nobody

⏹️ ▶️ has said is this really appropriate because we are not the scrappy upstarts anymore

⏹️ ▶️ and i’m not the first person to say that in the last couple of weeks and i won’t be the last but

⏹️ ▶️ so much of apple appears from the outside to be thinking of themselves as

⏹️ ▶️ the beleaguered upstart and they’re not they are i b m now and if

⏹️ ▶️ you want to enjoy the spoils of being i b m then you need to act like

⏹️ ▶️ a grown up and apple is not acting like a grown up right now and it’s just it’s crummy and

⏹️ ▶️ you know the other thing about it is and this is what i was alluding to earlier like so much of this is intertwined

⏹️ ▶️ with so many ongoing ruffles that apple is involved with

⏹️ ▶️ if not directly started and why why

⏹️ ▶️ did epic decide to do this end around and try to take money directly

⏹️ ▶️ you know did they do that because they want a direct relationship with the customer well maybe but i don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ that’s it did they do that because they wanted to make it easier on the customer will certainly not because

⏹️ ▶️ in our purchase is unequivocally easier on the consumer it may not be

⏹️ ▶️ easier on the developer but it’s easier on the consumer it’s not easy on the consumer’s pocketbook fair

⏹️ ▶️ fair that’s a good point but it’s it’s easier to saying that pick i was saying like more than half of the customers pick

⏹️ ▶️ the cheaper option and i’m like really it was only slightly more than half i thought a hundred percent of the customers

⏹️ ▶️ but maybe they were suspicious because they’re like wait a second this must be some kind of scam but yeah customers

⏹️ ▶️ want it to be cheaper yeah absolutely and

⏹️ ▶️ so why did the epic do it well i mean obviously they wanted money they wanted more money but

⏹️ ▶️ i think that in a large to a large degree epic as many other people have

⏹️ ▶️ said that thirty percent is just too darn much the rent is too damn high and

⏹️ ▶️ and and i don’t think that’s an unreasonable perspective and

⏹️ ▶️ and then like the app store like this is another different topic

⏹️ ▶️ like is the app store and apple view reasonable today well actually before

⏹️ ▶️ you get to the thirty percent thirty percent being too darn high again consoles also charge thirty per

⏹️ ▶️ cent it’s you have to as qualifier it’s too high for what epic feels like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ getting for its money that’s you know that’s the difference why aren’t they made at microsoft they’re

⏹️ ▶️ paying microsoft thirty percent why how they happy it’s because i guess they feel like they’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ value for their money again maybe they’re going to do a brand new console maybe they’re gong to help them with marketing maybe

⏹️ ▶️ they’re going to advertise their game in their marking materials maybe they have a close relationship about exclusive future games like

⏹️ ▶️ that’s corporate relationship management right that’s that’s what the console makers are doing

⏹️ ▶️ better than apples when we say thirty percent is too high and someone says microsoft charges thirty percent how is that different

⏹️ ▶️ microsoft is managing the relationship better there’s it’s more than just that thirty percent number clearly

⏹️ ▶️ epic thinks for this thirty per cent a we’re not getting enough value and b this extra pains

⏹️ ▶️ in our ac you know dealing with apple is worse than dearing with microsoft even though

⏹️ ▶️ it is you know harder to get something onto the consoles than it is into the app store

⏹️ ▶️ as far as epic is concerned at the level that it plays it has less of

⏹️ ▶️ a problem not no problem because again i think the epic is superman at the council makers too but so far

⏹️ ▶️ not as mad as they are at apple and so yeah you just like that if you are a platform and you’re

⏹️ ▶️ dealing with an epic and epic is important to you when the have fortnight is a popular game manage that

⏹️ ▶️ relationship better so thirty percent is too high for the value that

⏹️ ▶️ you think you’re getting like that’s the qualifier and everything in any sort of relationship are we all ok enough

⏹️ ▶️ with the terms not to literally go to war and so far the answer with apple is no we’re not

⏹️ ▶️ okay and the other council makers like for now we’re okay enough yeah

⏹️ ▶️ and and the other thing that got me thinking as i was talking to a friend of mine and

⏹️ ▶️ mostly about the idea of like side loading so you

⏹️ ▶️ know should it be possible for an iphone to install

⏹️ ▶️ an app that somebody downloads over the internet so yes you can side load now with

⏹️ ▶️ like a developer certificate and if you sort of come of know what you’re doing you can even sideload using what is it

⏹️ ▶️ alt store or something like that um that again is fiddly and complicated but you

⏹️ ▶️ can do it but but should side loading be allowed and

⏹️ ▶️ at first my initial reaction was hell ya cause this is no longer just

⏹️ ▶️ a phone this is your primary computing device even for some people

⏹️ ▶️ like myself like i spend more time in front of a computer than most people

⏹️ ▶️ like a traditional computer but nevertheless in so many ways i would say my iphone my is

⏹️ ▶️ my primary computer and this this is getting into the whole like it is

⏹️ ▶️ is the iphone a console which is which has floated around many of our friends podcast but particularly

⏹️ ▶️ on dithering recently and whether or not you consider the iphone a console i

⏹️ ▶️ do think that the iphone is for many people their primary computing device and if it’s their

⏹️ ▶️ primary computing device shouldn’t they be able to put whatever software they want on it and that

⏹️ ▶️ that’s a very slippery slope and at first i would say yes and then i thought about it and i was like eh

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t think i don’t know i don’t think so actually so then that brings up this

⏹️ ▶️ topic of curation which is what my friend brought up like the app stores curated now you

⏹️ ▶️ can take curated to mean only the best you can take curated to mean not actively hostile

⏹️ ▶️ you can take curated to mean well it may be garbage but at least it doesn’t steal your

⏹️ ▶️ data and crash you know maybe maybe it’s not actively hostile in that it doesn’t seal your data but it also doesn’t crash

⏹️ ▶️ and there’s so many ways to take curated

⏹️ ▶️ and i think that that’s okay and i think that most apple customers want a more curated

⏹️ ▶️ experience however you define curated but we are how many years in the

⏹️ ▶️ iphone thirteen or something like that it was two thousand seven wasn’t it yep okay so we’re thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ years into the iphone at this juncture i feel

⏹️ ▶️ like it is reasonable to let consumers make more

⏹️ ▶️ choices for themselves i don’t know that we really need big brother

⏹️ ▶️ apple to be running interference for us quite as much as they have been now i

⏹️ ▶️ wouldn’t necessarily take that all the way to allowing side loading but for

⏹️ ▶️ example the what was it the x box thing from last week don’t i already forgot the name of xbox

⏹️ ▶️ live or something like cloud the thankyou x cloud and stadium of the and

⏹️ ▶️ that was the code name i still don’t know the real name well whatever you know these streaming gaming

⏹️ ▶️ services or even like an emulator like take a take a nintendo emulator like one of the things that

⏹️ ▶️ apple said is well hold on we can’t we can’t verify that all these games are not trash

⏹️ ▶️ so no you can’t have that in the astor a why like let

⏹️ ▶️ the consumer decide well cause they couldn’t verify all these games to use in that purchase that’s

⏹️ ▶️ that’s the real we can review all these games to comply with this extremely anticompetitive

⏹️ ▶️ problematic rule that we have right you’re right and so at this point thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ years on i mean the iphone is almost old enough to get a learner learners permit

⏹️ ▶️ in most american states thirteen years on i think that customers understand

⏹️ ▶️ what the iphone is about and the ipad two i’m picking on the iphone but yet what is is about

⏹️ ▶️ and and i feel like we should be allowed a little more choice and i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ think that we’re the scared little children in the corner wondering how to use this

⏹️ ▶️ new computing platform again i don’t think side loading is the answer but i feel like

⏹️ ▶️ there should be a relaxation of what is allowed on the app store and that doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ necessarily explicitly relate to epic but i think that that’s one of these boiling points

⏹️ ▶️ that i’m seeing lately is that people are saying we want more choice and apple saying

⏹️ ▶️ no and that’s crummy and i don’t like it yeah because

⏹️ ▶️ i think the role of you know keeping users safe

⏹️ ▶️ which is very important yes i like that a lot and and i actually

⏹️ ▶️ like i said this last week too like i don’t i actually don’t want side loading

⏹️ ▶️ or alternative app stores like that’s not what i would hope for as an outcome here

⏹️ ▶️ i’m totally fine having the app store continue to be the only way to get

⏹️ ▶️ apps and as a as a slightly further step from that i would

⏹️ ▶️ be ok with side loading long before i’d be okay with alternative ap stores

⏹️ ▶️ because the os has technical limitations i took with an under the radar this week and the os has

⏹️ ▶️ you know technical limitations where an app currently cannot install another ap

⏹️ ▶️ and if that were still allowed if if aps could

⏹️ ▶️ be installed through you know enterprises distribution basically through through you know that kind of like managed

⏹️ ▶️ side loading procedure but they couldn’t themselves then install other

⏹️ ▶️ apps so so you could have you know apps that were distributed on websites but you couldn’t have you know

⏹️ ▶️ good like alternative app stores unless they would just be like giant webs or something but like i’d be fine with that too

⏹️ ▶️ but ultimately i actually don’t really think either side loading or

⏹️ ▶️ alternative app stores are incredibly necessary or compelling on ios

⏹️ ▶️ however you know the app store i think

⏹️ ▶️ overstates its value you know apple overstates the app store’s value in terms

⏹️ ▶️ of curation and user safety there is lots of apps

⏹️ ▶️ in the app store i would say the majority of apps in the appstore that are total garbage

⏹️ ▶️ there’s lots of apps in the appstore that steal your personal information in ways that you don’t necessarily think or

⏹️ ▶️ expect or are fully disclosed on many of them by facebook there’s lots

⏹️ ▶️ of apps in the appstore that do crash or that don’t work as expected or that don’t

⏹️ ▶️ work as advertised or that don’t provide all the evidence functionality because apr view is

⏹️ ▶️ neither perfect nor thorough nor consistent the astor is not actually providing

⏹️ ▶️ a huge degree of safety consumer protection and

⏹️ ▶️ stuff like that most of the safety and consumer protection come from the operating

⏹️ ▶️ system they come from the the technological limitations that it isn’t that apps

⏹️ ▶️ you know aren’t you know reading each other’s files and and installing persistent

⏹️ ▶️ demons behind the scenes that you can’t uninstall it they aren’t avoiding that because abstr

⏹️ ▶️ policy wouldn’t let them they don’t do that because they can’t on i o s because

⏹️ ▶️ the os blocks that kind of behavior like it is literally impossible to do the kind of things on i

⏹️ ▶️ s unless you found some kind of security exploit right so i know the point you’re getting at and it’s mostly true

⏹️ ▶️ but like the thing is like practically speaking if you were able to very easily

⏹️ ▶️ get people to download applications that apple never looked at um those

⏹️ ▶️ that the way it would be damaging is because those are the applications that would use private ip

⏹️ ▶️ is to find the exploit to do the thing right you know what i mean like it’s not to say that you can’t get can’t get something with an exploit

⏹️ ▶️ through the ap store because if you find a really good exploit you might not have to use private p you as you might not have to do anything that

⏹️ ▶️ can detect right but once you have that side channel it’s way easier once you find

⏹️ ▶️ an exploit to say now we’re home free right so the os is supposed to stop all of those

⏹️ ▶️ things but if you find an exploit and especially i feel like unfettered access to private a p i s and to be able

⏹️ ▶️ to poke around like that that’s how you find a hole in the sand box more easily in fact many of the jail breaks require

⏹️ ▶️ some kind of like in like that where you can get arbitrary code execution so you can get to private api

⏹️ ▶️ so it may i’m saying is it makes it more challenging for the technical limitations you do described

⏹️ ▶️ to to hold right because they’re obviously they’re not foolproof right and apple view is even upper viewing

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not for proof but a preview is one more stage where apple can say okay are they trying to bypass our technical

⏹️ ▶️ limitations let’s use our tools to detect it without that extra step you’re just relying on the

⏹️ ▶️ barriers and there never perfectly exploits are found all the time right so it’s

⏹️ ▶️ it is not completely you know black and white situation but certainly

⏹️ ▶️ most of the benefit that we like like you were saying most of the benefit that we enjoy is from the technical

⏹️ ▶️ barriers not from the quote unquote curation sure but many of those same tools

⏹️ ▶️ are running through the notarization service so like when you submit your binary for notarization

⏹️ ▶️ it’s scanning it for a lot of those same kinds of things i mean but if you had a side channel you wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ have to notarize it either right like the whole point of side channels i can i can i somehow distribute this app

⏹️ ▶️ to users and apple never sees any part of it i won’t notarize it you know maybe we’ll use developer i do no i don’t i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ think that’s necessarily a given i mean they could have it they have worked the same way that that you know enterprise

⏹️ ▶️ situation works well i don’t know any restitution i guess are those binaries ever going through apple servers well

⏹️ ▶️ anyway it could be like on the mac where on the mac like now you know with modern oses like you you really have

⏹️ ▶️ jumped through hoops to run something that’s not a developer id signed and i think soon or

⏹️ ▶️ already notarized and so they could do the same thing on i her like they would have to be notarized binaries and

⏹️ ▶️ everything like some of that attack area could be reduced i mean there are ways to get around that like you

⏹️ ▶️ can you know construct the selector from strings like there’s all sort of like you know ways that you can get around their

⏹️ ▶️ their static annals and the thing is companies like epic like a re i think the reason epic wants to like

⏹️ ▶️ to relax the rules is like if you give if you just relax the rules a little bit epic would find a way to essentially bootstrap

⏹️ ▶️ their entire store right all they need is a tiny little corner like it’s like hey go to our website and click this

⏹️ ▶️ link and it will use some weird exploit to get their foot in the door to bootstrap the process which will pull down

⏹️ ▶️ you know like you can it doesn’t take much that’s the thing with like security flaws one once

⏹️ ▶️ you can get that little thing in it under the wedge in you and you see it from like the easy the easy

⏹️ ▶️ jailbreak stores and the ways they try to make enterprise sert like less annoying if you can get that in there

⏹️ ▶️ and like it’s it’s worthwhile for a company the size of epic to play that wakame game

⏹️ ▶️ with apple like we’ll use this weird exploit to get the thin edge of the wedge and to be able to bootstrap

⏹️ ▶️ our store install process and then once we get that we’re after the races and the will well you know well

⏹️ ▶️ we won’t require anything to be notarized or maybe we’ll notarize it behind the scenes and make an ice

⏹️ ▶️ like this it’s worth while to them monetarily speaking to go through heroic measures to

⏹️ ▶️ make it as you know as less annoying as they possibly can

⏹️ ▶️ then then all the things that apple throws up right so it’s still like and i don’t think apple wants to engage in

⏹️ ▶️ that war right you know it’s more cut and dry but it’s like this the app store and nothing you know so

⏹️ ▶️ it’s that’s why every time we talk about side loading it becomes like a

⏹️ ▶️ like from both perspectives it’s seems like it can’t

⏹️ ▶️ be as good from users perspective and then from apple’s perspective if they open that door even a little bit it’s

⏹️ ▶️ it’s it’s a it’s a new front you’re you’re a new warrior waging on a new

⏹️ ▶️ front now all of a sudden we allowed this but now we have to find everybody who can

⏹️ ▶️ find the little path that we’ve allowed and used that to bootstrap their entire universe

⏹️ ▶️ that is filled with like bitcoin mining or god knows what right well that’s a like this is why

⏹️ ▶️ like i’m not pushing for side loading or alternative app stores really i don’t think the world would

⏹️ ▶️ end if we had that but that’s not my ideal outcome my ideal outcome is the app store policies

⏹️ ▶️ get slightly relaxed in in the most problematic areas i really would not

⏹️ ▶️ want apple to totally lose control of distribution and software

⏹️ ▶️ quality on i o s they’ve already lost a lot of it just by by size i mean like

⏹️ ▶️ like the value of the app store from any kind of like store perspective like you were mentioned earlier about like

⏹️ ▶️ game consoles and you you have things like cooperative marketing efforts between the platform vendor and the aps and everything

⏹️ ▶️ on the games and everything and and here you know you don’t the app store does not do much

⏹️ ▶️ for any apps marketing anymore there are way too many apps not a lot of people are

⏹️ ▶️ just casually browsing the app store as a thing that that you do every day like you know like when the phone was new

⏹️ ▶️ you would just kind of casually browse the app store because you had no as it was like a fun thing to

⏹️ ▶️ just browse around hey let’s install whatever’s here this looks nice i go on a plane let me go to the

⏹️ ▶️ game’s page and see what games are new and install some games these days it’s a much more mature system

⏹️ ▶️ with a billion apps in the store they the marketing value is nearly nothing

⏹️ ▶️ even the apps that get featured they have less traffic going to them

⏹️ ▶️ than they used to because it’s just again like people aren’t doing that in the same way that they used

⏹️ ▶️ to anymore and the absurd design doesn’t help either it’s very low information density you have

⏹️ ▶️ very few as per page et cetera so all these things combined to be like this is providing very little marketing

⏹️ ▶️ benefit the hosting benefit is something that exists but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ something that you could you could host yourself for you know pennies or dollars per month like

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not significant that they are offering that what the abs or mainly is offering here

⏹️ ▶️ is that apr view process and the payment integration for like the upfront purchasing and everything

⏹️ ▶️ and and the ease of the payment integration that’s what they’re offering

⏹️ ▶️ and so anybody who says thirty per cent is not worth it for that i agree with

⏹️ ▶️ it it’s not worth it um and and for apple

⏹️ ▶️ to be able to for apple be in a position where they can dictate

⏹️ ▶️ we are going to take thirty percent of all your money that goes

⏹️ ▶️ through this platform was a totally reasonable ish i

⏹️ ▶️ mean it was never incredibly great but a reasonable ish position to take when they were small and you know the argument i

⏹️ ▶️ made last week is like what case was saying earlier this is now a major computing

⏹️ ▶️ platform this is a huge part of lots of people’s lives

⏹️ ▶️ in really critical ways like imagine imagine a couple

⏹️ ▶️ of scenarios here to help make this point a little bit better a imagine if

⏹️ ▶️ windows pcs and max were this way from the start

⏹️ ▶️ imagine if all pc and mac software for the entire history

⏹️ ▶️ of those platforms microsoft and apple respectively were controlling

⏹️ ▶️ everything that coul possibly ever get written on them and forcing everyone to put thirty percent of all commerce

⏹️ ▶️ through them imagine if google chrome and

⏹️ ▶️ apple safari and every browser imagine if web browsers required

⏹️ ▶️ that all web commerce had to pay them that happened through their browser

⏹️ ▶️ or they would make their sights un browsable in their browser imagine

⏹️ ▶️ now you might say oh well you know apple built this whole system on mobile okay that’s interesting

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s not the only company that has contributed massive

⏹️ ▶️ critical infrastructure on mobile i would argue that if apple deserves

⏹️ ▶️ thirty per cent of all transactions that happen on phones so does your carrier

⏹️ ▶️ what if at and t all of a sudden decided you know what we’re going to demand thirty per cent of all

⏹️ ▶️ transactions that happen through our network or you have to remove your phone for a network like

⏹️ ▶️ isps broadband cellular component makers network

⏹️ ▶️ providers like what if cisco decides you know what all this traffic routing through our switches we built

⏹️ ▶️ this infrastructure we deserve thirty percent of all money that goes through it it’s it’s a ludicrous

⏹️ ▶️ argument and you can start to see how if any company really did this in know

⏹️ ▶️ for a large portion of the economy it would crush that economy

⏹️ ▶️ and it would severely restrict it it would cause lots of problems and everybody

⏹️ ▶️ would probably be better off the entire economy would probably be better

⏹️ ▶️ off if those gatekeepers did not do that after things get to a certain scale

⏹️ ▶️ and you look at game consoles and that game consoles are fundamentally

⏹️ ▶️ different they just are they are not general purpose computers they serve

⏹️ ▶️ a significant part of an economy but not like a broad part they serve a

⏹️ ▶️ narrow part in certain specialized ways and that’s it general purpose computers

⏹️ ▶️ pcs mac and yes mobile phones are a much more broad

⏹️ ▶️ tool much more essential to everyday life in the same way that like you know

⏹️ ▶️ certain services like you know your water and electric supply are regulated as essential services

⏹️ ▶️ that’s how these computing devices are they are essential and it makes no more sense

⏹️ ▶️ than apple deserves thirty per cent of everything that goes to their platform and can dictate everybody that goes on and off

⏹️ ▶️ of it then if at and t or comcast or cisco or

⏹️ ▶️ like so many other other other things if they would do the same thing like it no one

⏹️ ▶️ here deserves to lock up an entire market in a way that has this much impact on the economy

⏹️ ▶️ and has you know massive anti competitive forces at play as well like we’re

⏹️ ▶️ beyond that level of like companies can do whatever they want because it’s their company like again once things get

⏹️ ▶️ to a certain size they go beyond that it is the monopolists style and role

⏹️ ▶️ and duty to always say we built this we put all this money into

⏹️ ▶️ it we deserve to retain our control they always say that like standard oil i’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ said that like you know the railroads back in the day i’m sure they said that too that is their

⏹️ ▶️ job to to play that card and to try to drum up public opinion and the court’s

⏹️ ▶️ opinion to say like we built this and we deserve to run it however we want

⏹️ ▶️ but that’s not how society works like capitalism in its pure sense doesn’t work you need

⏹️ ▶️ you need like you know exceptions and regulations that are part of the system to keep it healthy

⏹️ ▶️ and to keep the economy from being locked up and having these giant monopolies form and kind of crush everything under

⏹️ ▶️ them and this is that size now this is that kind of thing

⏹️ ▶️ and in the same way that at and t shouldn’t be able to say we are not going to just take thirty percent

⏹️ ▶️ of all your money that goes through our network apple is now too big for

⏹️ ▶️ that and their platform needs to be regulated to preserve

⏹️ ▶️ this entire section of our economy of our society

⏹️ ▶️ of everyday consumer and business usage of their platforms they need

⏹️ ▶️ regulation they are too big to have the control that they have and the way

⏹️ ▶️ they exercise their power they are just it’s too big and too important for that now and the needs of society

⏹️ ▶️ are now above that i’ve still been studiously avoiding the antitrust stuff and i don’t want to delve

⏹️ ▶️ into at this late stage in this episode but i will i will leave it in the topic list cause i’ll give my

⏹️ ▶️ take on antitrust maybe next episode but i do want to save myself from another flurry of emails assuming

⏹️ ▶️ there is no bugs outside my window a person the x the name of the cloud

⏹️ ▶️ thing products cloud is was their streaming gaming thing it’s just going to be part of xbox game pass which

⏹️ ▶️ is their uh you know subscription gaming service it’ll be part of xbox game pass ultimate second

⏹️ ▶️ item i mentioned microsoft and you know gears of war branded xbox

⏹️ ▶️ and all that other stuff um microsoft actually bought gears of war a couple of years back bought

⏹️ ▶️ like bought the entire franchise right that i imagine is another example of

⏹️ ▶️ corporate relationship management um it’s not like microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ stole it from epic they bought it with lots and lots of money right that’s you know we’ll make a game it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ be exclusive for your platform and then oh well actually we’d like to make a new franchise

⏹️ ▶️ and microsoft’s like well we kind of like unreal what come to agreement here’s a giant bucket of money can we have

⏹️ ▶️ our non unreal can we have gears of war here you go here’s gears of or right that’s better

⏹️ ▶️ corporate relationship management and talent or intention than apple is doing and somebody in the

⏹️ ▶️ chatroom earlier said that ah can’t believe he’s listening to apple fans arguing against the

⏹️ ▶️ wald garden why don’t you just use android if that’s your your argument i don’t think any of us are

⏹️ ▶️ arguing against the wall garden we’re just saying we’d like the garden to be better tended right or

⏹️ ▶️ we like the rules of the garden to be different in fact you know we just got done talking about side loading we’re not arguing

⏹️ ▶️ against the bald garden it’s not a walled garden anymore it’s more of like a walled prison it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not fun to be in there we’re not like frogging through the flowers and sitting on a bench and appreciating nature

⏹️ ▶️ some people are angry right it doesn’t mean the concept of a walled garden or a curated space

⏹️ ▶️ is bad again game consoles game consoles are the most walled

⏹️ ▶️ garden they very extremely closed walls very tight control and i like game

⏹️ ▶️ consoles for those reasons because the platform owners who succeed learn

⏹️ ▶️ how to cultivate with both money and encouragement and marketing and everything you every two

⏹️ ▶️ leg possibly imagine talent that makes creative things that’s part of we talked about this with apple arcade

⏹️ ▶️ apple kinda sorta got a tiny bit of a clue like hmm maybe we should give people money

⏹️ ▶️ to make good games for our platform but the scale they’re

⏹️ ▶️ doing it with apple arcade is nothing compared to the scale the console makers do it like console

⏹️ ▶️ makers how much money does sony pay to naughty dog to put the last of us exclusively on the platform

⏹️ ▶️ like that that bucket of money could pay for all the apple arcade seventy five times over apple night say they’re being savvy

⏹️ ▶️ and saying we’re not putting all our money into these big buckets but there’s a reason whenever in the triple

⏹️ ▶️ a games most people don’t think of phones or ipads even though there are some really great games for phones and ipads

⏹️ ▶️ ah you know i still think apple doesn’t quite understand but anyway getting back

⏹️ ▶️ to walled gardens like i personally love walled gardens that are beautiful gardens

⏹️ ▶️ they have walls but the beauty of the garden is worth it enough for me to pay the admission to get the console

⏹️ ▶️ to sit down and play the set of games that sony has decided are allowed to be on their platform

⏹️ ▶️ and given the amount of time i have i appreciate the fact that of all the games on the platform i could

⏹️ ▶️ actually scroll through the list of all of them and there’s a small enough number and

⏹️ ▶️ the best ones are really really good that’s why i keep buying sony consoles right so i guess i

⏹️ ▶️ didn’t want to get into my personal take on the anti dress stuff now cause we’d have so much as that i think i want to get to

⏹️ ▶️ but i wanted to address those small items just so we get slightly feed back and by the way if you’re already wet at

⏹️ ▶️ me before you got to this point in the show that happens what can you do

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⏹️ ▶️ all right let’s do some

⏹️ ▶️ and i’d like to take a very very brief detour and i would like to thank brenda

⏹️ ▶️ i know right i’d like to thank brendan riel who put together

⏹️ ▶️ ask at p dot fm which is a search

⏹️ ▶️ engine for ask a t p questions and answers and this i think was born from me saying

⏹️ ▶️ why is it that we’re asked how to move things between computers eighty five times a year

⏹️ ▶️ and so brandon took it upon himself to put this together and it is stupendous so thank

⏹️ ▶️ you brendan for doing that that is extremely cool and i’m sure took forever

#askatp: Identifying monitors

⏹️ ▶️ moving on nathaniel cohen writes i have a three external monitor and

⏹️ ▶️ laptop screen set up two of those monitors are identical with the same make and model

⏹️ ▶️ the os therefore seems unable to reliably identify them their identities

⏹️ ▶️ frequently become swapped and i usually have a once per day fun time with the mac os

⏹️ ▶️ monitor arrangement slash resolution configurator this functionality for configuring monitors as exposed

⏹️ ▶️ by the o s is horrendous the arrangement tab does not identify any of the monitors even when you click and drag to

⏹️ ▶️ adjust their position you have no idea which monitor you are affecting similarly the i for display configuration is

⏹️ ▶️ needless needless needlessly spread out across and windows if you have and monitors and it’s impossible

⏹️ ▶️ to tell if two monitors have the same making model which window corresponds to which monitor

⏹️ ▶️ i guess there was a question here my question is more of a comment

⏹️ ▶️ yeah i put this in there i mean the question is probably like don’t you think this is bad

⏹️ ▶️ so a few thoughts as the reason i put thoughts first first of all

⏹️ ▶️ um it’s been so long since i used multiple monitors that i actually add to like you know

⏹️ ▶️ connect to my external monitor my external montserrat which is my side car

⏹️ ▶️ i pad to confirm this and i don’t i don’t mind too old to remember how it used to be but i double

⏹️ ▶️ checked and of course now i forgot again but anyway and has pretty much always had a way to do exactly one

⏹️ ▶️ of the things he’s asking for which what what monitor is this in the arranged panel where it shows you

⏹️ ▶️ little little squares or rectangles each one represents your monitor if you have one big monitor and one small monitor

⏹️ ▶️ it’s easy to tell which is which the big one the big rectangles the big monitor and the small rectangle of small but what if you

⏹️ ▶️ have monitors that are exactly the same size how do you tell which is which if you just click and hold on

⏹️ ▶️ the little rectangle it will put a red border around the monitor that you are clicking and holding on like

⏹️ ▶️ bill click on holding the little preference pain on like a little tiny representation of your monitor but then that

⏹️ ▶️ actual monitor will get a giant red outline around it like in real life if you look it so anyway that feature

⏹️ ▶️ does exist it’s not obvious that it’s there but you can identify the monitors

⏹️ ▶️ in that way then you can tell which one you re arranging the other part of this though has a

⏹️ ▶️ tie into one of my switch glass war stories which i’m not going to have time to go into entirely here but i will give

⏹️ ▶️ the short version of it which is when you have monitors connected

⏹️ ▶️ to your computer like actually before i get to that the thing about the windows being spread out this is the

⏹️ ▶️ thing that mace does and has always done i think for adjusting monitors if you try to adjust

⏹️ ▶️ the settings on the monitor you have system preferences open and you’ve got the monitor preference pain

⏹️ ▶️ and when you pull up the monitor’s preference pain yeah it’s whatever your main window is that

⏹️ ▶️ has system preferences on it will show the monitor’s thing but then on every other monitor

⏹️ ▶️ you’ll also see a little miniature monitor’s preference pain that has the settings that apply

⏹️ ▶️ to that monitor so if you want to change the resolution of a particular monitor you bring your

⏹️ ▶️ mouse cursor to that monitor where there is a window sitting there and says pick one of these resolutions pick this color

⏹️ ▶️ depth whatever pick this rotation thing and the window in that monitor applies to that monitor

⏹️ ▶️ right that’s the system that they use for a long time it’s a little bit easier than having to do like okay well first i click

⏹️ ▶️ the little representation of my monitor and then now i know my future changes apply to that monitor

⏹️ ▶️ like it’s better when they think it’s better when every single monitor has dead centre

⏹️ ▶️ on it a window and that window controls the monitor that it’s on in fact i like that

⏹️ ▶️ feature so much that when i made switch class one of the features i wanted to have is that the little switch palette thing

⏹️ ▶️ you get one of those on each monitor and if you want to adjust the settings i

⏹️ ▶️ made one preference window i tried to do use i muddle that a little bit anyway i made a preference window and when

⏹️ ▶️ you open preferences you get one preference window in every single monitor and if you want to adjust the settings

⏹️ ▶️ of the little palette on that monitor you use the preference window lets on that monitor right so i use the

⏹️ ▶️ same approach which most people maybe aren’t familiar with or that seems weird but to me it seems very

⏹️ ▶️ a fairly clean way to do it i made it because i put global settings at the bottom and then i labeled them global settings anyway

⏹️ ▶️ it’s whatever it is anyway this problem of like okay i like that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ app they want i wanted to make in switch class seems easy like i’ll just make you know i’ll i’ll walk

⏹️ ▶️ through the list of monitors and i’ll put a little you know on first launch i’ll put a little pallet on every single monitor

⏹️ ▶️ and then when people make you know if preferences they’ll change the settings

⏹️ ▶️ and then when they change the settings i’ll save them but i have to save the settings for

⏹️ ▶️ each monitor like all right i made this pallet like really big in the upper right so i got to say okay

⏹️ ▶️ really big in the upper right applies to this monitor well what is this monitor i need some

⏹️ ▶️ way to identify monitors just like macos you know and poor

⏹️ ▶️ nathaniel needs some way to identify monitor so i’m i’m going to save i’m going to save this state i’m going to save

⏹️ ▶️ somehow this monitor and i thought foolishly this would be an easy thing to do there’s probably some p how

⏹️ ▶️ you call that just gives you some kind of identifier for the monitor that’s unique to that monitor and you just save it

⏹️ ▶️ but you know nothing nothing in sovereign development is ever that easy especially

⏹️ ▶️ in those weird edge case areas that i’m wandering in mages right turns out

⏹️ ▶️ there is no really good way to do that there’s a bunch of ways to look super tempting one of them is

⏹️ ▶️ like a monitor i d or display id that you get and the very first thing i did is that display i d there

⏹️ ▶️ you go it’s easy and it’s like some big number and if you save that number when you launch it again

⏹️ ▶️ ah and you say and you look up the us go through all the displays you’ll find on the same

⏹️ ▶️ id and it matches up like this is great i’m like ah but what if this number changes every time you reboot so i rebooted my

⏹️ ▶️ computer number stayed the same like what problem solved this is like day one what a great developer

⏹️ ▶️ i am i’ve just solved this problem ah no that’s a trap

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t forget what it is like apple doesn’t promise that this thing does what it does but it’s called like i

⏹️ ▶️ d or something and it and practically speaking it works so like i figured i was done

⏹️ ▶️ and then i started getting weird bug reports from people and it turns out if you have a mac laptop with

⏹️ ▶️ a discrete and an integrated gpu when it switches from the discrete to the integrated gpu that

⏹️ ▶️ number changes and the bug reports i was getting for this were mind bending

⏹️ ▶️ because i was like eh this never happens for me and be what in the world

⏹️ ▶️ are you talking about like what do you mean like when i do it because because again they would do something

⏹️ ▶️ unknowingly that triggered the use of the discrete cheap to you and if they did that

⏹️ ▶️ and then they launched the app like it would pull the settings from the discreet cheap number because the numbers were stable but

⏹️ ▶️ there were different numbers for discreet and integrate it took me so long to forget that anyway

⏹️ ▶️ that doesn’t work as i need some other way to identify there’s a bunch of invo

⏹️ ▶️ you can get using weird s c a p i s that tell you the vendor the make

⏹️ ▶️ the model number and the serial number like i’m home free because even if you have the exact same monitor

⏹️ ▶️ then not going to have the same serial number right all right crack developers what was the problem with this

⏹️ ▶️ api private no i mean this is mack can do what all i want no no

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t know maybe you need a in case you should know it’s your computer

⏹️ ▶️ engineer hardware sucks you buy some random ass monitor

⏹️ ▶️ and you call these apis oh this one doesn’t return anything for serial number this one

⏹️ ▶️ doesn’t return anything for model number this one doesn’t return anything for vendors

⏹️ ▶️ like the ap is to say you can call this p i and it will

⏹️ ▶️ return like a number representing the vendor or it will return f f f f f f

⏹️ ▶️ and like monitors in the real world and i need all three like i can’t

⏹️ ▶️ just do making model because again if you have two identical monitors which a lot of people have but i still can’t tell

⏹️ ▶️ the monitors they’re both the same make model but some they return nothing for anything some

⏹️ ▶️ and then the internal display sometimes returns weird stuff because the internal display is made by weird different

⏹️ ▶️ manufacturers right so that loop is out the window can’t use that because hardware is like i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ have a serial number i don’t know what you’re talking about finally what i settled on was there’s

⏹️ ▶️ a color what is it color sink or some color space there’s some a p i that does some crap

⏹️ ▶️ that i don’t understand on the covers that gives me a number that is my best effort

⏹️ ▶️ it is like it’s stable across jeep you switches even on monitors

⏹️ ▶️ that don’t return a serial number returns a stable identifier i honestly have no idea where it’s coming from and i think

⏹️ ▶️ it’s related to that color sink thing but the os does have some way to identify the monitor i

⏹️ ▶️ don’t think that is even a hundred percent reliable but it’s reliable enough that i no longer get these bug reports all

⏹️ ▶️ this long story is to say that the active in macos the act of identifying

⏹️ ▶️ a monitor so that you know the next time the computer breaks up at the same monitor i saw before

⏹️ ▶️ is actually extremely difficult and it would not surprise me if the herculean efforts that i went through

⏹️ ▶️ to make sure this works in all weird scenarios it is not

⏹️ ▶️ what the you know the monitor arrangement handling of macaws proper

⏹️ ▶️ ghost trips i can imagine makes proper might use for example to make model serie number and just say

⏹️ ▶️ well of course everything always returns you know a serial number and then just not care about some you know

⏹️ ▶️ cheap knock off monitor that doesn’t do that right but you know and or

⏹️ ▶️ maybe the color sink thing or whatever it is that i’m using one of the failure modes

⏹️ ▶️ is in nathaniel’s specific case with his specific monitors so i don’t have a good

⏹️ ▶️ answer for you but i can tell you that this problem is not well solved in macos

⏹️ ▶️ and it doesn’t surprise me that you’re having these problems ah and i would

⏹️ ▶️ love a ovs files on radar at some point or feedback or whatever i would love for apple to provide

⏹️ ▶️ apis that perform this function because i think being able to identify the same monitor

⏹️ ▶️ cross boots is important i kind of feel for apple though because if you literally have

⏹️ ▶️ an identical monitor and that monitor just lies or just doesn’t tell you anything about itself

⏹️ ▶️ and there’s another one right next to it that does the exact same thing how do you tell which monitors

⏹️ ▶️ and maybe maybe someone under the covers again the g p identifier but like on boot up when

⏹️ ▶️ it senses these two monitors like maybe you could tell what port they’re connected to i don’t i don’t even know anyway

⏹️ ▶️ this is a hard problem i’m sorry nathaniel and it’s one of my many miniature

⏹️ ▶️ war stories about dealing with switch glass and i feel for all of us just have

⏹️ ▶️ a single monitor that’s a solution get real get a really really big five thousand dollar monitor that’s my advice oh

⏹️ ▶️ excellent six if you want to stand you know what i’d actually forgotten about the stand

⏹️ ▶️ until marco said that so thank you you’re welcome but i recommend expensive products

⏹️ ▶️ mike milano or perhaps casey list write a

⏹️ ▶️ part time developer with no design skill struggle with finding ways to improve the look and

⏹️ ▶️ overall design of my apps i can’t afford to pay anyone to help at this point so i’m looking for resources that i can learn from

⏹️ ▶️ i often look at popular apps as well as other aps in the same space as my aps but i feel like it’s one of those you

⏹️ ▶️ don’t know what you don’t know situations where i might not recognize small details buttons with a slight shadow

⏹️ ▶️ spacing spacing on different elements et cetera do you know of any websites or youtube channels

⏹️ ▶️ that do ap tear downs that could be a good way for me to hear experts give constructive feedback and other resources you can

⏹️ ▶️ recommend a part time developer with little artistic sensibilities i’m all ears gentlemen what

⏹️ ▶️ he got i should have an answer to this

⏹️ ▶️ but the simple answer is no i don’t um i

⏹️ ▶️ have gone into this process myself for the same reason i too have

⏹️ ▶️ been a developer with no design skills that couldn’t afford to pay someone else for help

⏹️ ▶️ um i have now moved into being a developer with some design skills

⏹️ ▶️ who doesn’t feel like paying people for help because i like doing everything myself if i can and it has all

⏹️ ▶️ such benefits for things like speed and workflow and everything doing it that way um

⏹️ ▶️ first of all there’s no shame in this like there’s no shame in my apps are kind of ugly

⏹️ ▶️ and i don’t know how to help and and i can’t afford a designer like that’s a very common

⏹️ ▶️ place to be for developers so there’s no shame in this you know own it

⏹️ ▶️ as mike is so that’s fine and and you know don’t be afraid

⏹️ ▶️ to you know actually address this and and call it out in public and be and be vulnerable

⏹️ ▶️ in this way and solicit feedback from people who will give it also there

⏹️ ▶️ are like just kind of certain general principles that you can start with

⏹️ ▶️ one of the best is like you could actually read the hig i haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ but you could because like when it comes to things like

⏹️ ▶️ sizing of controls spacing a lot of design comes down to

⏹️ ▶️ just following the platform’s standard and many of is’s tools

⏹️ ▶️ and and you know things like out to lay out things like even the hell was

⏹️ ▶️ that from kids outside just the a rock at my window what seriously

⏹️ ▶️ terminated his developer again yeah it should be all right they ran away i was

⏹️ ▶️ going to say are they looking to like flirt with you or something it’s just like you know in a late nineties early two thousands

⏹️ ▶️ date movie seems unlikely go to the window maybe there’s some romance are they holding

⏹️ ▶️ up a boom box perhaps marco hasn’t seen it neither have i i just know the reference i think i’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ like bits and pieces like on t and t or something anyway um auto layout swift you

⏹️ ▶️ eye you get a lot of the stuff for free of like following the standard spacing following standard

⏹️ ▶️ sizing et cetera so a lot of it is like if you if you don’t actively

⏹️ ▶️ mess with it it will be right and so that’s that’s that’s like one way to

⏹️ ▶️ to kind of ensure that you have like a reasonable design is

⏹️ ▶️ just like follow things that are as standard as possible if you can one or of the other

⏹️ ▶️ major areas of design becomes typography and this goes

⏹️ ▶️ to not only like how you lay out your text but where

⏹️ ▶️ you lay it out in the ui what style of text you use for different elements what

⏹️ ▶️ sizing what spacing how you word things how you capitalize

⏹️ ▶️ and punctuate things and all of the like the style of

⏹️ ▶️ how to do that is all spelled out in various star guides all over the place you know apple has stains here and there

⏹️ ▶️ you can also just kind of look at what other apps do like it when you’re writing your setting screen text

⏹️ ▶️ or whatever you can you can go and look and see like what do most other apps do

⏹️ ▶️ for capitalization of this setting do the capitalize every word they capitalize only the first

⏹️ ▶️ word stuff like that like you can you can kind of look at other apps this is this is how i’ve learned

⏹️ ▶️ most of my app design skill if you can call it that taking cues from

⏹️ ▶️ what do what like what do apples built in apps do in this way what and look at those really boring

⏹️ ▶️ ones like mail like like how how how do apple’s built in apps or like the

⏹️ ▶️ setting zap how do how do they design this thing what size icon do they

⏹️ ▶️ use in this context what style of text and capitalization do they use in this context et cetera

⏹️ ▶️ that’s a lot of design right there and then as you get more comfortable

⏹️ ▶️ with this when as you start to make things fancier

⏹️ ▶️ just kind of be careful like dip your toe and things slowly so for instance if you want to do something

⏹️ ▶️ like add a custom font that’s a risky move you can do it well you can do

⏹️ ▶️ it poorly be careful go into it slowly like add like one

⏹️ ▶️ font not seven ten um use it you know

⏹️ ▶️ gently like dip your toe in slate don’t pick like a super extreme font with like tons

⏹️ ▶️ of overt personality that that might be you know off putting to people and stuff like that

⏹️ ▶️ as your sizing your your text or picking colors or at least color like shades of

⏹️ ▶️ gray for your text don’t use a bunch of different shades or a bunch of different colors pick

⏹️ ▶️ like a small number of colors and a small number of sizes and a small number of styles

⏹️ ▶️ stuff like that so so so you end up dipping your toe slowly in into

⏹️ ▶️ custom design rather than looking like a ransom note from made made of torne

⏹️ ▶️ magazines and so yeah but other than that unfortunately

⏹️ ▶️ i can’t actually recommend like specific youtube channels or books

⏹️ ▶️ or websites to do this because not only do i not know of any off the top of my head and i didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ really read or watch any but also if you start asking designers you know you can go

⏹️ ▶️ to like you know various designer websites or forums or have designers yell at you on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ if you ask them what is the right way to do this or what’s the best way to do this or

⏹️ ▶️ how do i make this better they’re all going to give you different answers they’re going to disagree with each other they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ to be contradictory many of them are going to be wrong many of them are going to be bad or many of them are going to are going to actually

⏹️ ▶️ work worse in the context of an ap because designers aren’t all perfect

⏹️ ▶️ i mean how many developers do you know who are perfect

⏹️ ▶️ and if you think about development as as a practice it’s pretty much

⏹️ ▶️ impossible to do it perfectly and you can ask four developers in a room how to do something you’re going to four very different

⏹️ ▶️ answers and designs the same way designers don’t all agree on everything they’re not just one like

⏹️ ▶️ monolithic block that they can give you like the one true answer they’re going to have recommendations that are

⏹️ ▶️ all over the map and some of the some of them are going to be bad designers some of them are going to be great designers and it’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ of hard to tell if you don’t know what you’re getting ahead of time so it’s actually really

⏹️ ▶️ hard to involve other people in a great way here like no one

⏹️ ▶️ person is going to tell you everything correctly and everything you need to know so it is worth developing

⏹️ ▶️ the skill in your own it is worth like developing a sensibility of at least like

⏹️ ▶️ general guidelines of like here i can make a pretty good version one and

⏹️ ▶️ then if i get a lot of feedback to a certain point then maybe i can adjust the screen or adjust

⏹️ ▶️ this you know font or move this control or if my users are not finding something or if they

⏹️ ▶️ are complaining about how something looks like maybe then adjust it but yeah overall

⏹️ ▶️ this is this is a worthwhile skill to develop but it is i

⏹️ ▶️ don’t unfortunately know of any good shortcuts to do it except try to

⏹️ ▶️ mimic what the system maps do as much as possible if you have any doubt on a design choice

#askatp: Design by programmer

⏹️ ▶️ i make one modification to what marco said in one addition modification is i think you should read

⏹️ ▶️ the hig the apple human interface guidelines it’s not going to be super helpful

⏹️ ▶️ it’s not going to tell you exactly what to do but there’s tons of texts there and even if you disagree with

⏹️ ▶️ it it’s it has a rationale and you will find things in the gig especially

⏹️ ▶️ if you’re not an experienced designer that you hadn’t even thought about that you hadn’t even thought this was a thing

⏹️ ▶️ to make a decision about it all even if you disagree with the decision that the hig says or it seems weird or whatever you do

⏹️ ▶️ don’t agree with the rationale just knowing that this is a thing that you should think about and make a decision about is valuable

⏹️ ▶️ so i would absolutely read the hig you know not not read it as the bible but read it just

⏹️ ▶️ to sort of get the lay of the land you know start learning what it is that you don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ and the addition i would say is you don’t find other developers

⏹️ ▶️ to bounce things off of ideally they’d be more experienced developers

⏹️ ▶️ but even if it’s just a bunch of people who are at the same level of experience having

⏹️ ▶️ other people you know put their eyes on what you’re working on really helps like

⏹️ ▶️ you know so i’ve been a machine in nineteen eighty four i know what makes should look like

⏹️ ▶️ when i was making my first mac ap i could tell it was wrong

⏹️ ▶️ like it’s you know if you have experience with the platform you’re like well i’m not a designer but i’ve

⏹️ ▶️ been using a mac for years and this looks messed up i was very able to tell that

⏹️ ▶️ you know i got like a bunch of controls i’m laying out in a dialogue and it’s not doesn’t look right to me like it’s off and

⏹️ ▶️ i can even tell you what specifically was wrong with it it’s it feels heavy on this side and this spacing

⏹️ ▶️ feels too tight it’s like okay well then what if you just make the spacing bigger it’s like no it’s still wrong like i

⏹️ ▶️ have a fire a finely tuned sense of what is right and wrong from vast experience with the platform

⏹️ ▶️ but why i didn’t have vast experience with is say you’ve got this bucket full of controls how do you lay him

⏹️ ▶️ out in a way that doesn’t feel wrong it’s real easy to do it when you just have a simple problem or like one of the examples

⏹️ ▶️ from the hig but where about when you’ve got your app with your stuff in it an

⏹️ ▶️ experienced mac developer say oh i’ve been faced with that same bucket of controls and here’s how i dealt with it

⏹️ ▶️ i did it like this i like that and again they’re not going to agree but you know the way i essentially work

⏹️ ▶️ shopped like in my very first dinky little mac ap the one tiny little preference window i bounced

⏹️ ▶️ off a bunch of vastly more experienced mac developers and they also didn’t agree right

⏹️ ▶️ but we could all agree it was wrong and they had some good ideas about how to make

⏹️ ▶️ it better and then i essentially took the idea that i liked the best and modify it with my own taste

⏹️ ▶️ and then would bring it back again and say what do you mean i think market was in the channel in case you’re both in the channel i was

⏹️ ▶️ doing this i would relay out the dialogue and say what do you think of this and then five more opinions would chime in

⏹️ ▶️ and then i would you know do the same thing find the opinion that i agreed the most of us give it a try and try

⏹️ ▶️ it again and iterate and so on and so forth that’s a great way to learn and obviously maybe you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ going to have access to a slack channel with like people with decades of development experience but surely

⏹️ ▶️ you have access to some other developers and law of averages mean that some of them will be more experienced

⏹️ ▶️ or better designers than you that combined with what mark was saying you know you just got

⏹️ ▶️ to put in the time and do all those things and i think you’ll be fine there’s no become a great designer in twenty one weeks

⏹️ ▶️ course that you’re goin to find a youtube that’s gon to do what just putting in the time and giving

⏹️ ▶️ it a try and you know doing some basic background reading and bouncing ideas off your friends that’s all there is to it

#askatp: Switch from Windows

⏹️ ▶️ eight christian row writes i’m a long time windows user since the early nineties but i love my iphone

⏹️ ▶️ and ipad the new move to big sur and apple silicon that can run apps across apple

⏹️ ▶️ platforms has me finally contemplating the big switch where do i start i’m a power user and want more than the

⏹️ ▶️ basics that’s such an open ended question i don’t even know where to start with the

⏹️ ▶️ answer to be honest with you um if you want to laugh you can look through the exchange

⏹️ ▶️ that mark when i had fifteen now twelve years ago now before the

⏹️ ▶️ it was it was it i thought it was after the iphone but maybe you’re probably right maybe it was two

⏹️ ▶️ thousand six i thought it was two thousand eight but anyways we a long time ago had this conversation

⏹️ ▶️ publicly via tumbler and so you can go get a get a good laugh about that but

⏹️ ▶️ i i don’t know where do you start with this this question doesn’t make it clear whether

⏹️ ▶️ this is about hardware or software is it like what hardware should i buy

⏹️ ▶️ or where should i get started learning about things i mean on the on the sort of software slash knowledge

⏹️ ▶️ side listening to weird nerdy podcast like a db is a great start because

⏹️ ▶️ even though especially if you’re new to the platform a lot of the stuff we talk about is going to go over your head

⏹️ ▶️ just through osmosis and exposure you will start to learn things about the platform again kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ reading the hig you’ll learn what the issues are and the lay of the land maybe

⏹️ ▶️ you won’t understand the details but you’re like oh this is a thing and that’s a thing and maybe you’ll hear us talk about something

⏹️ ▶️ like you know clipboard managers or something which you probably know from an not already anyway but just as an example

⏹️ ▶️ a category of apt that we talk about as if it’s just a thing that everybody knows about but maybe you’re not familiar with

⏹️ ▶️ or like you know quick launchers like lunch bar or whatever and that will send you down a rabbit hole and then you know

⏹️ ▶️ outside the podcast world finding websites or people to follow on twitter that

⏹️ ▶️ are themselves mac power users and just you know absorbing

⏹️ ▶️ the firehose of those websites those blogs those twitter streams you

⏹️ ▶️ will pick up everything you need to know about being a more advanced user on the platform like

⏹️ ▶️ i know people always want sort of the like i said the twenty one day course or whatever just like here you

⏹️ ▶️ go here’s everything you need to know and people always want someone to create those and they hope they exist

⏹️ ▶️ but the thing is stuff like that dates very quickly and has a huge amount of opinion

⏹️ ▶️ inserted into it and generally isn’t financially you know very advantageous

⏹️ ▶️ so they tend not to exist or if they exist they’re they’re either were never valuable or they

⏹️ ▶️ are no longer valuable because they’re too far out of date right so people who learn that way people like likes

⏹️ ▶️ tell me everything i need to know like i learn well from videos to learn well from reading tell me that

⏹️ ▶️ about this new thing in most new things that doesn’t exist the example i always go back to i think

⏹️ ▶️ i wrote about once is like remote control cars like tell me everything i need to know but remote control car it’s like no that’s not it’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ way it works what happens is you get a car and you build it and you break it and you buy a bunch of magazines over stuff

⏹️ ▶️ that you don’t understand and you read them for a year and at the end of the year you know more than you did at the beginning that’s

⏹️ ▶️ it like there’s no there’s no course there’s no instruction there’s no smooth path to

⏹️ ▶️ learning is just dive in there ah and expose yourself to

⏹️ ▶️ the things that you want you know the things that you want to achieve find people

⏹️ ▶️ who are already there and then just absorb their output even if in the beginning it doesn’t make

⏹️ ▶️ any sense to you it will eventually and that’s that’s the way we all got to where we are we didn’t know anything about computers

⏹️ ▶️ and we just went to you know we just sat in front of it and plugged away or went to the computer

⏹️ ▶️ class or the computer club i took i took typing courses they called them but we were typing on computers

⏹️ ▶️ which meant that i could figure out how to put my name on the screen in between the typing let you know like

⏹️ ▶️ there’s no there’s no short cut just like the designer questions no shortcut but the

⏹️ ▶️ good news is there’s tons of resources no matter how you want to consume it if you like you tube there’s plenty of youtubers where you

⏹️ ▶️ can just watch them start talking about text stuff if you like podcasts here you are right if you like blogs or

⏹️ ▶️ websites to tons of those out there um just find the one that appeals to you and just

⏹️ ▶️ start start absorbing and you will learn and if this is a question about

⏹️ ▶️ what computer to buy i’m sorry we failed you but i’ll be more specific next time where do i start

⏹️ ▶️ buy a mac that’s the lunch one yeah i know welcome

⏹️ ▶️ buy a laptop not undo that is terrible i can’t even agree on that you’re not buying

⏹️ ▶️ anything until the arm max come out so you know hold that thought well but like

⏹️ ▶️ i mean would you tell somebody like don’t switch to our platform right now i don’t think i would tell them i think i would you

⏹️ ▶️ know it’s not the best time in the world to buy mac hardware or platform i didn’t know what i didn’t get my check do you get

⏹️ ▶️ a check it’s not my platform you don’t get your thirty percent yeah here’s my thirty percent

⏹️ ▶️ built the platform yeah now i would say i would say especially if you’re if you’re a long time windows

⏹️ ▶️ user thinking of switching because because this person says because of the arm transition

⏹️ ▶️ and the ability to run ipad apps right now that has me finally contemplating the big switch

⏹️ ▶️ yeah wait for arm if you can wait for arm for sure if you’re switching platforms

⏹️ ▶️ like that means you’re already on a platform and you’re fine stay there it’ll you know wait until

⏹️ ▶️ our macs are available they will hopefully be compelling and that’s that’s the thing that is specifically

⏹️ ▶️ attracting this person yeah and you probably won’t have a long wait i mean maybe like another month before the first one is available

⏹️ ▶️ and it’s probably going to be a lapped up so yeah and only two years until in theory they’re all available because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ a two year transition if all goes to plan exactly all right well thank you very much your sponsors

⏹️ ▶️ this week hey dot com square space and rakan and thank you

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ members who support us directly you can learn more about that at t p that f m slash join

⏹️ ▶️ and we will talk to you next week

⏹️ ▶️ now this show is over they didn’t even mean to begin

⏹️ ▶️ because it was accidental or it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ john did do any research marco and casey wouldn’t let him

⏹️ ▶️ use it was accidental though it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ but you can find the show notes at b dot

⏹️ ▶️ fm and if you’re into twitter you could follow

⏹️ ▶️ them c a s e y l i assess

⏹️ ▶️ that’s k c s m a r c a r m

⏹️ ▶️ ant marco men s i r a c

⏹️ ▶️ siracusa is accidental

#askneutral: Driving stick

⏹️ ▶️

⏹️ ▶️ so alex keeling

⏹️ ▶️ wrote in and i think this was supposed to be an s a t p question but we wanted to move it to a

⏹️ ▶️ ask neutral question yeah that’s the thing now

⏹️ ▶️ alex asked she was asking about general stick shift driving techniques

⏹️ ▶️ and advice and i don’t have the actual letter written to us but basically

⏹️ ▶️ how do you drive a stick i could answer this question

⏹️ ▶️ and then john will explain that everything i’ve said is wrong even though it wouldn’t be

⏹️ ▶️ so let me just cut to the chase and asked john how do you drive a stick you you can cry

⏹️ ▶️ men on these bullet points i feel like we can all try men on them we’ve all driven stick i mean this wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ directly from her thing i just like listed a bunch of you cause she was just you know asking journal but

⏹️ ▶️ this is my list of like things that people talk about about driving stick and maybe left stuff off but

⏹️ ▶️ just try man god tell us what you think about all the bull point all right so to start how

⏹️ ▶️ do you learn they’re very very different ideas about how to do it but

⏹️ ▶️ and i’ve only taught a couple of people to be honest with you but what i like is

⏹️ ▶️ starting out without using the gas at all so you’re stop dead you using

⏹️ ▶️ your left foot of course you slowly come off the clutch until you see or and or feel

⏹️ ▶️ and or hear the engine start to bog a little bit because the clutch is starting to pick up

⏹️ ▶️ and then you push the pedal all the way back down do that again to feel where it is the clutch

⏹️ ▶️ is starting to grab and you do that a whole bunch of times just not even intending to move you know hopefully

⏹️ ▶️ you’re on a flat surface and you’re just kind of standing still and you’re getting a feel for where the clutch is really

⏹️ ▶️ grabbing then you do the same thing extremely slowly but eventually

⏹️ ▶️ let yourself get to a roll so you’re eventually all the way off the clutch and then you stop and you do that

⏹️ ▶️ again and you do it super slowly a whole crap load of times and then once you get a feel

⏹️ ▶️ for how that works just make it faster simple right that’s all you got to do um and

⏹️ ▶️ that’s that’s how i like just do just learning how to get going um

⏹️ ▶️ the other well it used to be pro tip but not as much any more

⏹️ ▶️ ah because of electronic parking breaks but the other thing you can do is if you’re ever on a hill and need to take off particularly

⏹️ ▶️ if you’re in a front wheel drive car which most are then you can use your handbrake

⏹️ ▶️ to hold you where you are while you’re doing the whole dance with your feet and then release

⏹️ ▶️ the handbrake with your hand once you start to creep forward um that

⏹️ ▶️ is a very neat trick that i didn’t know for a long time and i wish i had known when i was first learning but in terms

⏹️ ▶️ of technique and advice i am a big believer in

⏹️ ▶️ john’s first bullet here which is downshifting and engine braking so what that means is

⏹️ ▶️ as you’re approaching say a stoplight you would and let’s say you’re in i don’t know fourth

⏹️ ▶️ gear cause you’re just around town as you’re approaching the stop light and you see it’s red down

⏹️ ▶️ shift into third and then come completely off the gas and what is it the compression of the

⏹️ ▶️ engine will force the engine to try to slow down and when you’re off the clutch that means if the

⏹️ ▶️ engine slowing down your wheels are slowing down and so i’ll downshift once or twice maybe even three times coming

⏹️ ▶️ up to to a stop sign or stop light and that’s again downshifting an engine breaking and

⏹️ ▶️ i am i am in favor of this some people would argue that that’s a poor choice because you’d rather wear

⏹️ ▶️ your brakes than wear your engine and i understand that but i don’t know i’ve always i’ve always done it john before i move

⏹️ ▶️ on to the next bullet thoughts about that you should you should do all the bullets cause you’ve already gone through learning

⏹️ ▶️ and downshifting so i’m going to go go ahead all right i’ll carry on then a

⏹️ ▶️ common guidance which i am terrible at do as i say not as i do keep your hand off the shifter

⏹️ ▶️ it’s bad for the lift linkage it’s bad for the transmission potentially just don’t

⏹️ ▶️ touch the shifter if you’re not actively shifting i often rest my hand on the shifter which is not

⏹️ ▶️ at all what you’re supposed to do but you should keep your hand off of it if you want to make things

⏹️ ▶️ smoother and this is kind of like moving from novice to amateur level

⏹️ ▶️ if you want to make things smoother on a down shift then you can do what’s called ref matching

⏹️ ▶️ so let’s say you’re cruising at and i’m making this up but let’s see you cruising at forty miles an hour and fourth

⏹️ ▶️ gear and you’re at two thousand rpm well you know or you will learn over time

⏹️ ▶️ that if you were to downshift at forty miles an hour from fourth to third then that will

⏹️ ▶️ bring you to about three thousand rpm from two thousand rpm well what what you

⏹️ ▶️ can do in order to make things a little smoother is you would press the clutch you would

⏹️ ▶️ blip the throttle with your right foot to get the rpms of the engine up to

⏹️ ▶️ about three thousand rpm or wherever you think it a land and then you come off the clutch and the reason you

⏹️ ▶️ do that is because then the engine and the transmission are all in their appropriate

⏹️ ▶️ relative speeds such such that there is no like jerking backward

⏹️ ▶️ and forward the the opposite of this is just popping the clutch which means you are you know

⏹️ ▶️ you’re doing what i say thirty forty miles an hour and fourth gear you press in the clutch

⏹️ ▶️ you downshift to third and you come right off the clutch real fast and then you’ll you’ll feel that like

⏹️ ▶️ of your whole body shifting as the engine and the transmission are

⏹️ ▶️ coming back into an even relative speed so i again

⏹️ ▶️ strongly encourage rev matching it will make your downshifts

⏹️ ▶️ particularly considerably smoother then if you want to go from

⏹️ ▶️ novice or well you’ve you’ve gone from amateur to novice now you want to go from novice to expert

⏹️ ▶️ level you can do what’s called heal towing which is something i also do which is kind

⏹️ ▶️ of difficult although i do it in the wrong way so the way you’re supposed to heal to is you’re supposed

⏹️ ▶️ to put the toes of your right foot on the break which is a middle pedal and you’re supposed

⏹️ ▶️ to twist your foot such that the right heel can press the gas pedal

⏹️ ▶️ so the idea is what makes you think that’s the way you’re supposed to do it because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ called heal too i think you i mean i understand that it

⏹️ ▶️ can be done both ways but i think the way you descr i would say the way you described is the wrong way well in

⏹️ ▶️ this and the way i described is not the way i do and i’ll describe how to do it in just a moment but like if you ever see

⏹️ ▶️ like racing drivers doing what i would call a heel toe downshift i

⏹️ ▶️ almost always see them done with a twist of the foot such that instead of your foot you

⏹️ ▶️ know instead of your toes being at midnight and your heel being at six your toes are at like ten ten

⏹️ ▶️ and your heel is at like four am and again that’s not the way i do it but that’s the quote unquote

⏹️ ▶️ standard way of doing it you i think that’s the opposite of way you describe them basically i’m saying heel on the brake

⏹️ ▶️ tow on the gas but you were saying to on the gas to on the brake heel on the gas correct

⏹️ ▶️ maybe i’m wrong but that’s the way i always thought i saw it was that you’re you’re twisting your foot counter clock one

⏹️ ▶️ whenever i see videos of people’s feet i always see heel on the brake to on the gas and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ the way i think of it obviously both of them will work not just you know anybody continue description like why are we why are we touching

⏹️ ▶️ the gas in the break at the same time right so the theory is you’re especially if you’re driving

⏹️ ▶️ in with the quickness not all you it doesn’t have to be that way but often if you’re driving with quickness

⏹️ ▶️ you’re coming up into a turn very quickly you’re going to break as you’re entering

⏹️ ▶️ the turn and then on the way out of the turn you’re going to want to stand on that gases as much

⏹️ ▶️ as you can but because you’ve lost all that speed in the turn you’re now in the wrong gear

⏹️ ▶️ so the idea is you will start your breaking and then

⏹️ ▶️ press your foot on the clutch to come down a gear and then as you’re breaking and your

⏹️ ▶️ foot is on the clutch you’ve already you’re already on top of two petals you would like to do that blip of the

⏹️ ▶️ throttle to do the rev matching that we were just talking about at the same time so you now have three pedals you need to

⏹️ ▶️ interact with and only two feet to do it unless you are extremely gifted and so what you would do

⏹️ ▶️ is you would blip the throttle with potential your heel potential

⏹️ ▶️ your toe or what i actually do and i’ve done it every car i’ve ever owned is i

⏹️ ▶️ keep my foot vertically oriented my toes are at midnight my my my

⏹️ ▶️ heel is at six p m or m or whatever and but i will roll my my foot

⏹️ ▶️ so i’m i’m rolling as though i don’t know how to it’s

⏹️ ▶️ so hard to paint a word picture here but i’m rolling the right edge of my foot such that it’s hitting the

⏹️ ▶️ gas this is terrible podcasting it is terrible i’m so happy this is the after show

⏹️ ▶️ so you roll your foot such that you can press

⏹️ ▶️ the gas with the right side of your foot and the break with with the left side of your foot

⏹️ ▶️ um now someone in the chat is saying oh this is racing technique and not safe driving i disagree actually i think

⏹️ ▶️ it is safer to not disrupt the balance of the car so this is more

⏹️ ▶️ necessary in racing but i still think if you’re coming through a turn and you need to downshift

⏹️ ▶️ the last thing you want to just do is disrupt the balance of the car and

⏹️ ▶️ if you’re popping the clutch or doing a whole bunch of things in in in

⏹️ ▶️ cereal rather than parallel that can disrupt the balance of the car so

⏹️ ▶️ that’s what i would call heel toe shift and john i’m genuinely curious to hear how

⏹️ ▶️ you perform such such a maneuver because again for me it’s a roll with the left foot on the left side of the foot

⏹️ ▶️ on the break right side of the foot and the go oh my god i just i have you know i drove manual

⏹️ ▶️ for probably ten years i never did any of this stuff except

⏹️ ▶️ downshifting sometimes it doesn’t surprise me and it was fine i like i never lost a clutch

⏹️ ▶️ i never blew out an engine like it’s fine like you you don’t need to do almost

⏹️ ▶️ this yeah exact thank you john

⏹️ ▶️ but hey alex asked what what what do we recommend well this is what we recommend this is the crash course

⏹️ ▶️ and this is what casey recommends so far alex asked about quote general stick shift

⏹️ ▶️ driving techniques and advice this is none of that case added his own bullet point

⏹️ ▶️ for learning but everything else i think is this one one more bullet point case the last i’m trying

⏹️ ▶️ i’m trying i’m trying and then finally double clutching so i’m a little weaker

⏹️ ▶️ on this this is not something i ever do but the idea is typically with a car

⏹️ ▶️ with a syncros which is basically every modern car you would just

⏹️ ▶️ let’s say you’re going from second to third you pressing the clutch you move the shifter

⏹️ ▶️ you you come off the clutch well it used to be and it still is in certain circumstances

⏹️ ▶️ like you know eighteen wheelers for example that in order to get the transmission in the

⏹️ ▶️ engine spinning it at reasonable rates you would need to kind of modulate that yourself so instead what you

⏹️ ▶️ would do as you would push the clutch in get the gearshift and neutral come off

⏹️ ▶️ the clutch push the push the clutch in again then put the gearshift in third

⏹️ ▶️ and then come off the clutch and that’s double clutching and maybe john has a legitimate reason why

⏹️ ▶️ you would do this in a modern car i i never ever ever do this and that is all the bullets

⏹️ ▶️ that john put in and off the top of my head that’s actually all the things that i actually one

⏹️ ▶️ other thing if you live in a snowy climate or if you’re in a

⏹️ ▶️ situation where you maybe you’re on a slick road or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ it is possible to start from a dead stop in years other than first

⏹️ ▶️ year spoken as someone who didn’t learn stick on a car with seventy five horsepower

⏹️ ▶️ there is that i assure you my volvo wagon could not come

⏹️ ▶️ start in any conditions and second gear oh come on there’s four it had four

⏹️ ▶️ years plus an overdrive button and second gear was not going to send you anywhere one of my happiest

⏹️ ▶️ moments with my maxima was when i was starting from a stop going uphill

⏹️ ▶️ a pretty steep stop and the maximum did not have hill hold it was too old

⏹️ ▶️ for that this is nineteen eighty six maximum was long before that was a common thing and

⏹️ ▶️ and so i got it from first or i got it from a stop

⏹️ ▶️ i thought i was in first and i was uphill and i just slowly grab up the hill

⏹️ ▶️ man that was harder than i thought and then i realized i was in third and i just started

⏹️ ▶️ in third uphill and it didn’t stall it made it like it

⏹️ ▶️ didn’t have a lot of extra power but it did make it had more had more than

⏹️ ▶️ a giant volvo wagon they probably weighed a million tons with a seventy five horse baring all i’m saying

⏹️ ▶️ is if you’re in a modern car and you’re in like snow or something like that your it is

⏹️ ▶️ potentially advantageous to start in second or potentially even third because you’re putting less

⏹️ ▶️ torque against the wheels that are driving the car and that would make it less likely to do it like a burn

⏹️ ▶️ out or whatever the case may be oh burn out if you’re in a front or we will drive car and not an all

⏹️ ▶️ wheel drive car give the car way too many revs you know three four five thousand or

⏹️ ▶️ as you’re sitting still and then just pop the luch and that’s basically all you need to do although you pay in a modern car you’re probably

⏹️ ▶️ going to need to turn off trash control and all that jazz but you can do it that is the list

⏹️ ▶️ i think let me let me try to add as your talking john the things i just came up with but what did

⏹️ ▶️ i go where did i go wrong what did i forget i’m not going to be going to learning because we have a separate thing for that maybe

⏹️ ▶️ we’ll talk about that i am out of this back is the only person who has successfully taught another human to how to drive stick

⏹️ ▶️ as far as i know is true and not true i taught david carpet to drive stick a child’s

⏹️ ▶️ human my own child okay fair enough yeah he was only nineteen at the time does that count

⏹️ ▶️ yeah anyway i’ll talk about it some other time it’s a whole different thing um downshifting versus

⏹️ ▶️ engine breaking like the trade off casey mostly got at all the points i want to make but the trade off is

⏹️ ▶️ it is not i would say it’s not between like wearing your brakes versus wearing the engine

⏹️ ▶️ it’s wearing your brakes versus wearing wearing your clutch right so when you when you engine break

⏹️ ▶️ you’re not letting the clutch shift but it is more stress on the clutch in a situation when you

⏹️ ▶️ wouldn’t be doing it at all you’re downshifting engaging a lower gear and if you’re not doing graph matching all

⏹️ ▶️ of a sudden the you know the engine the transmission is going faster than the engine and the transmission

⏹️ ▶️ is connected to the engine all of a sudden it sets the nine up and yes that is her in the engine but it’s also where in the clutch cause you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ just touched a clutch to the transmission you’ve made you’ve made those surfaces and they were turning at

⏹️ ▶️ different speeds if again if you didn’t do reaching right ah if you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ engine break at all you will wear your brakes down way faster right and you say well brakes

⏹️ ▶️ actually are more expensive than a clutch if you look at how much it costs to replace four brake pads that’s

⏹️ ▶️ more expensive than one clutch if you look at the parts cost unfortunately the clutch is inside your car

⏹️ ▶️ in a place that is hard to get to and so changing your clutch tends to be way

⏹️ ▶️ more expensive than changing your pets um all that said i mean i feel like that’s the trade

⏹️ ▶️ off you’re doing i think it is essentially unsafe not to do any engine breaking in a stick

⏹️ ▶️ shift car i mean maybe it’s because i’m using cheap cars but the brakes alone without

⏹️ ▶️ using any form of engine braking will make you feel like your car is worth breaking because it does

⏹️ ▶️ any car with a non manual transmission uses some form of engine braking to help

⏹️ ▶️ slow the car down like they you know an automatic transmission does not shift into neutral as soon as you try to come to

⏹️ ▶️ a stop from sixty miles an hour like try that in a stick shift car in a safe way go sixty hold

⏹️ ▶️ down the clutch and try to break and then do the same thing with downshifting its night and day so you have

⏹️ ▶️ to downshift and use engine braking that has to be part of your driving you don’t have to do it horrendously

⏹️ ▶️ you can do some breaking with less engine braking you can downshift less aggressively but i feel

⏹️ ▶️ like you have to know how to downshift an engine break even if you

⏹️ ▶️ just do it as like a matter of find myself doing it as a routine like stopping from thirty i will go through

⏹️ ▶️ all the gears back down to one sometimes you know while i’m doing that i’m barely

⏹️ ▶️ engaging the gears in between just because it’s a casual stop is just a good habit to get into

⏹️ ▶️ and my history has shown like i sold my nineteen ninety two accord just as the clutch

⏹️ ▶️ was going and that was at over a ten year old car like eventually all clutches wear out whether you do engine

⏹️ ▶️ breaking or not but it’s not like you’re going to wear through your clutch in the first year or whatever it’ll be fine please learn

⏹️ ▶️ how to downshift and do engine breaking keeping your hand the shifter no don’t do that um

⏹️ ▶️ i think most of the stories about how bad it is are sort of like

⏹️ ▶️ you know tales that we tell each other legends urban legends about oh it’s going to mess up your linkage and

⏹️ ▶️ you’re putting stress on i’m not even sure if that’s true but there’s a more important reason if your hand is on the shifter

⏹️ ▶️ and you like sneeze and you knock it out of gear or do something like it just don’t have your hand on a control surface

⏹️ ▶️ that you’re not planning to control you’re just asking for you to screw something up so don’t restring on

⏹️ ▶️ the shifter isn’t this steering wheel a control surface right but you have to constantly steer

⏹️ ▶️ but you don’t have to be constantly shifting how much how much control of your hands are you losing

⏹️ ▶️ when you sneeze you could get startled or whatever like i mean obviously you have to be steering

⏹️ ▶️ like you if you could avoid holding the steering whe and you didn’t have to steer the yet you should and shouldn’t be that

⏹️ ▶️ you but you have to steer but you don’t have to constantly be shifting so why touch your hand to a thing

⏹️ ▶️ that you could potentially screw up when there’s no reason you need to be touching it don’t also have again

⏹️ ▶️ like in my probably decade of driving stick i don’t think i ever accidentally knocked the car

⏹️ ▶️ out of gear like that’s kind of hard to do but do you do you rest your hand on the shifter the entire time you’re driving

⏹️ ▶️ of course it looks cool this that’s terrible i’ll be one of those people

⏹️ ▶️ i was totally one of those people and it was fine i am one of those people but i know i shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ i i mean yeah maybe in some kinds of cars or some older cars

⏹️ ▶️ or some newer cars that actually is bad to rest on the linkage i just don’t know if that’s specifically true i feel like

⏹️ ▶️ the safety thing is more compelling but in general it’s not i’m not going to say sanitary like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ not it’s not like proper technique it’s like it’s like piloting a plane and leaving your hand resting on a landing gear switch

⏹️ ▶️ it’s like oh i’ve never city turns on just get your hand off of it do you need to use landing gear not then just don’t have your hand on the

⏹️ ▶️ switch oh i’ve never accidentally turned it on just don’t do it um rev matching

⏹️ ▶️ if i had fancier cars i would probably be more into it but my

⏹️ ▶️ cars tend to be have so little power that this is not that

⏹️ ▶️ big an issue that said it’s kind of hard not to rev match once you get them the

⏹️ ▶️ hang of stick cause you know again that you are about to shift and

⏹️ ▶️ you know the engine is not going fast enough for the year you’re about to engage like you’re about to you’re

⏹️ ▶️ about to pass right you downshift at least i do in my wimpy cars have to downshift to pass anybody that’s always going

⏹️ ▶️ to happen right and when i downshift i know that the engine needs to be going way faster in this year than it’s

⏹️ ▶️ currently going you’re going to get a head start on that you’re going to say well engine get ready cause

⏹️ ▶️ cause if you don’t do it and you just downshift you have to especially in my wimpy cars you have

⏹️ ▶️ to baby the clutch engagement so you don’t suddenly lurch because you know

⏹️ ▶️ it’s that the delta is big and the like there’s not a lot there’s not

⏹️ ▶️ enough torque and power to sort of overcome that easily so you have to baby the engagement and if you don’t baby the engagement

⏹️ ▶️ then it’s lurch and it’s like why not just cut to the chase and get the engine up to speed that i know round about the speed

⏹️ ▶️ and the question is how do i know what speed needs to be you just know it needs to be faster than it is right the

⏹️ ▶️ bad part about this is depending on the size and weight of the fly wheel in your

⏹️ ▶️ car flipping the throttle like this was something when i was looking that cool what was it

⏹️ ▶️ the t fifty what the hell is the name of that car from the guy who made the mclaren oh yeah i

⏹️ ▶️ not you’re thinking of about it either has like no flywheel or such a lightweight flywheel that it would literally

⏹️ ▶️ be impossible for a human to blip the throw because you’d flip it and then it would go up briefly and then

⏹️ ▶️ go right back down before you could even ended and engage the gear right so it all depends on you having a fly

⏹️ ▶️ wheel in your car that says okay when i blip the throttle i can then go back to changing the gear and get it

⏹️ ▶️ into gear before the engine reverts to its previous speed and in you know in this super fancy

⏹️ ▶️ two million dollar supercar with like no fly wheel you can’t do that and in modern cars they

⏹️ ▶️ they do the rev matching for you a lot of times i have never actually driven a car with its own rev matching

⏹️ ▶️ but certainly the engine computer can do it better than you ever will because it knows the actual speed needs

⏹️ ▶️ to be and be you can do that while your feet are doing other things yeah i’ve i’ve driven one my dad’s corvette

⏹️ ▶️ has optional automatic rev matching i think it’s on by default but it’s fairly easy to turn off

⏹️ ▶️ in fact yeah his his car which is a seven speed stick has paddles behind the

⏹️ ▶️ wheel as though it was i was just going to say you know you know why they do that you know what has paddles

⏹️ ▶️ there yeah it’s for the rev matching it’s so it’s no no no those paddles are the paddles

⏹️ ▶️ that you use to shift the car if you don’t get it with the stick and sure and gm being the cheap car company

⏹️ ▶️ you didn’t want to make a separate steering whee without the paddle so they just want to have the same parent so they just take the paddles and

⏹️ ▶️ they put they just write ref match on and they connect the wires to different function you literally have two gigantic

⏹️ ▶️ petals the same exact pedals that you get for shifting that corvette if you didn’t have a stick and they just put

⏹️ ▶️ a white rev match at the top of each one which is i don’t think it’s a reach at the top and otherwise i think we’re

⏹️ ▶️ the same thing in a zero and because that video had about the zero one was i was laughing at that part like why

⏹️ ▶️ how does this car have these giant paddles like oh so it can be the same steering wheel so they don’t have to have a second

⏹️ ▶️ part they turn this bug into the future anyway but his car does do it and

⏹️ ▶️ it was more accurate than when i did it but i think that’s for me that’s part of the fun is

⏹️ ▶️ is trying to get a good rev matched downshifts and so i quickly disabled it although

⏹️ ▶️ if i was like taking it to the track or something like that i would probably leave it enabled

⏹️ ▶️ her to i am terrible at i don’t know if it’s because i have big goofy feet i don’t know if it’s because

⏹️ ▶️ my little hondas don’t have petals spacing or positioning that is amenable to it but i am so bad at it that

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t i’ve never found it to be i’ve never been successful enough at it to

⏹️ ▶️ find it to be enjoyable or useful with the things i already described just like

⏹️ ▶️ human rev matching and careful clutch engagement you and the fact that i’m not

⏹️ ▶️ really going that fast in an accord like i’m not unsettling the chassis through corners as i feel i kind of

⏹️ ▶️ relate to the people who are saying this is kind of more of a racing thing like if you worried about the chassis becoming

⏹️ ▶️ unsettled in corners slow down yeah it’s a cool thing to play with or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ and maybe if i had a sports car again if i had a car with more power or a car that even had the notion that

⏹️ ▶️ you might attempt this i assure you that none of the hondas that i’ve ever owned had a notion that people can try to heal to

⏹️ ▶️ i find it very difficult to do and i’m not good enough at it to ever do it so i set that side

⏹️ ▶️ double clutching i only put on here because i used to know a lot of people back when i was a teen who would

⏹️ ▶️ swear by driving their car with syncros and double clutching they said yea you don’t need to do it because the

⏹️ ▶️ sinkers and by the the sinkers of the thing that make sure that when you engage the gear that the actual gears that are going to

⏹️ ▶️ engage with each other are turning at the correct speed so you don’t have so you don’t take a tooth gear turning faster than another

⏹️ ▶️ tooth gear and try to match them right double clutching in the big trucks i don’t actually know how they work in behind

⏹️ ▶️ scenes what it’s basically like like katy said you take it out of the gear and put it in neutral and then you have

⏹️ ▶️ to bring the engine up to speed so that when you engage the gear the two years that you’re goin to engage are moving at the right speed

⏹️ ▶️ i think you are actually also responsible for modulating the throttle to get the engine up to

⏹️ ▶️ speed and then you engage and if you don’t match the speeds and you try to engage them you are attention essentially taking two big

⏹️ ▶️ metal gears moving at different speeds and trying to match them and you get terrible noises and you destroy stuff right

⏹️ ▶️ but for cars with syncros i i don’t know if i just there’s this crop of weirdos that i

⏹️ ▶️ went to high school with but like all you should totally double clutch your car was synchro so i learned how to do it when i was

⏹️ ▶️ learning stick and i did it for a little bit and as far as i can tell it’s absolutely one hundred percent pointless

⏹️ ▶️ like it’s worse it’s slower it’s not fun to do and there’s no reason to do it

⏹️ ▶️ so are my advices for unless you’re driving a semi which by the way they probably have an

⏹️ ▶️ automated transitions now anyway but like unless you’re driving a semi that requires it double clutching is not

⏹️ ▶️ a thing you need to know exists or learn how to do um starting in second third yeah i mean this is

⏹️ ▶️ where you have to know your car’s power we have always been having weak cars starting in second for sure and the snow

⏹️ ▶️ is a thing you should do although i would still say that i had to start on a hill and second many of my cars

⏹️ ▶️ didn’t really have enough power to do that snow or no snow and burn out you’ll just wear through

⏹️ ▶️ your tires don’t do that it’s all about getting the power to the road but it’s fun burn outs are fun

⏹️ ▶️ margo you have anything to add i tell us we should all buy drive electric cars i mean yeah i mean

⏹️ ▶️ a electric cars do neatly solve many of these problems but anyway if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ going to drive stick like don’t let this conversation turn you off of it this may sound like it’s a crazy

⏹️ ▶️ thing to do that’s really hard and you used to do all these things to do it right and the fact is none of this is necessary you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ have to do any of this and you’ll be fine like i drove a stick for you know all that time

⏹️ ▶️ and and yet never had to do almost any of this stuff that that that’s that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ thing i think about stick shift driving mark of you saying you didn’t know or care about this and you were fine in

⏹️ ▶️ my experience when someone says i know how to drive shift stick

⏹️ ▶️ there is a wide range of experiences you would get by driving in the car with them

⏹️ ▶️ like lots of people like wider than you would expect everyone like oh well you know you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ever know how to drive and people are good drivers and bad drivers but the range of

⏹️ ▶️ like like the things i’ve seen people do in a car where there are sensibly driving sticks sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ boggle my mind i don’t know if it’s because if it’s a gap in learning or no particular standards

⏹️ ▶️ or just people have bad habits but boy like

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t you know i’m not just saying like valets who like just have to know enough stick to park a car like people

⏹️ ▶️ who own stick shift cars and you get in the car with them and you just like biting your tongue it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ what what are you doing and like you’re jostling around and they don’t know how includes the out the clutch and everything

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t know why that is obviously it’s much less of an issue now because nobody has sticks of cars and i feel like the longer

⏹️ ▶️ this goes on and the rarer sticks become the more this problem will solve itself because the only people who have

⏹️ ▶️ them are hopefully people will know how to do it but but i don’t even know but anyway sorry sorry to interrupt you i agree

⏹️ ▶️ with you you don’t need to know all this weird stuff you can be happy and just drive a stick and you’ll be fine yeah

⏹️ ▶️ like like marcos i mean this is expert level and extraordinarily

⏹️ ▶️ fast data dump as to what john and i think about driving a stick but really and truly you don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ eighty percent of this and you probably won’t hear eighty percent of this because margot doesn’t care about it and he’ll

⏹️ ▶️ cut it before it gets released to ski this in you will hear it from other people who drive

⏹️ ▶️ sick though that’s why i think it’s important to cover the point you’ll find somebody who looks like a wise expert and will tell you that you should

⏹️ ▶️ double cut your car with syncros and just don’t listen to that person like that’s why i think it’s worth knowing all the stuff mostly just so you

⏹️ ▶️ know to dismiss it but i do think the engine breaking one is that’s the thing you have to know how to do if you don’t feel like your

⏹️ ▶️ car is less safe cause you you have way worse breaking power way longer breaking distances

⏹️ ▶️ and it’s just not it’s not a good habit do not do not stop your car from eighty on the highway

⏹️ ▶️ down to zero with the clutch depressed the whole time that’s bad for your brakes it’s bad for your life

⏹️ ▶️ learn how to learn learn how engine brake yeah that’s actually that’s the one thing that like

⏹️ ▶️ when i was a newbie stick driver like for my first few years driving stick i didn’t do that and then

⏹️ ▶️ i eventually developed that skill and that was like a significant betterment of my of my stick driving

⏹️ ▶️ abilities i actually don’t think it makes any difference in terms of the ability

⏹️ ▶️ for the brakes to stop the car like i don’t think the brake boost is in most cars anyway

⏹️ ▶️ driven by like engine or pm or if it is it’s a very small difference it’s not the brake boost

⏹️ ▶️ it’s just that the engine like it’s not so when you connect a fast moving

⏹️ ▶️ transmission to a slow moving engine some energy has to be spent to speed that engine

⏹️ ▶️ up that’s energy coming out of your speed of the vehicle like the kinetic energy is being

⏹️ ▶️ is being used you know the kinetic energy as translated through the wheels through the axle into the transmission

⏹️ ▶️ is being expended spinning the engine up from one thousand or pm

⏹️ ▶️ or whatever drop to up to like two thousand right and then you do it over again because you

⏹️ ▶️ shift to a lower gear the engine goes down to one thousand not only that but but the engine vacuum is doing

⏹️ ▶️ way more than just like spinning up the engine every time you shift yeah i mean i was saying like spinning the engine

⏹️ ▶️ because it’s moving slowly there’s lots of things that make it hard to spin the engine up like you know you’re not giving

⏹️ ▶️ it gas to spin the engine up the entire amount of energy is coming from the speed of the car so you are bleeding off

⏹️ ▶️ speed by using it to constantly spin the engine up from a lower rpm

⏹️ ▶️ right to a hire one and then repeating that process right and then the second thing is even

⏹️ ▶️ if the brakes have the ability to stop in the same distance there you’re going to produce more heat in those brakes

⏹️ ▶️ if you have wimpy brakes lots of small cars have very very wimpy brakes and if you’re stopping from high speed

⏹️ ▶️ they’re not good at you know they get they get hot they get worse there’s brake fade right especially if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ not in a sports car that’s used to that type of thing that they ask the breaks to do if you ask the brakes to do the whole

⏹️ ▶️ job themselves you’re asking a lot of your brakes again especially if you drive a dinky economy

⏹️ ▶️ car that has tiny tiny brakes maybe drum bakes in the back in the back and tiny little

⏹️ ▶️ you know disks with you know wimpy calipers in the front yeah it also it becomes

⏹️ ▶️ more reasonable or more more extreme if you think about like suppose you’re driving down a mountain and so

⏹️ ▶️ you’re you’re going downhill for like fifteen minutes straight like you’re if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ riding only the brakes that whole time they’re going to overheat yeah you’re going to have overheating problems and that’s that’s no good

⏹️ ▶️ they’re going to they catch fire just like in foreign versus fear right yeah there you go and and finally

⏹️ ▶️ with regard to engine breaking like what if you’re slowing down but then suddenly there’s

⏹️ ▶️ some sort of hazard that you need to speed around so you want to be in the most

⏹️ ▶️ appropriate gear for the current speed in the car because if you’re caught unawares

⏹️ ▶️ and you’re in like neutral or something and then you suddenly need to use the accelerator to swerve

⏹️ ▶️ around a child or a dog or something that’s not a good place to be you want to be in

⏹️ ▶️ gear already so all you have to do is slide your foot off the break and under the gas to get power as opposed

⏹️ ▶️ to being a neutral way too high a gear such that you’re either going to bog when you try

⏹️ ▶️ to go or you’re just not going to have any forward motion at all yeah and if you’re in gear if you’re in the correct

⏹️ ▶️ gear for the whatever speed you’re decelerating and you will have shockingly instant torque

⏹️ ▶️ response when you hit the accelerator i’m not sure about the the accelerating around child scenario

⏹️ ▶️ but that’s what i was getting up before about the sort of habit of downshifting just constantly being in the appropriate

⏹️ ▶️ gear for your speed is just a good habit like even even like i said even if you’re just down shifting through the gears even

⏹️ ▶️ if you don’t even engage the clutch between some of them just constantly being in the right gear is getting

⏹️ ▶️ you so that if you did need to use the gas for whatever reason it’s ready to go and

⏹️ ▶️ you don’t have this process because the process is not just getting into gear the processes decide what gear

⏹️ ▶️ is appropriate for the current speed put the car into that gear and then you can go whereas if you just routinely

⏹️ ▶️ go row up and down the gears in order based on your speed as just sort of like a habit

⏹️ ▶️ that you just do without thinking about you will always be in the appropriate gear for the speed and ready to go

⏹️ ▶️ again and that’s you know again that’s what an automatic transmission or an automated manual that’s what they’re doing for you right

⏹️ ▶️ there and of course they can shift away faster than you can and all the other things but that’s your hands hint on

⏹️ ▶️ engine braking automatic transmissions do not put your car in neutral they they use

⏹️ ▶️ the engine to help break the car they as you slow down automatic transmissions will downshift to be ready

⏹️ ▶️ to be in the appropriate gear and do you know so so will dc ts yeah like

⏹️ ▶️ there you can’t just put the d ct in neutral very easily and coast to a stop like it really fights you

⏹️ ▶️ on that really it really wants you to go down to the gears as you sit on