693: Negative Bonus Points

29 May 2026

Jony Ive finally made his car.

Episode Description:

• Pre-show: Marco has something to commend
  • Ubiquiti marketing video
  • Spanning Tree Protocol
  • Sonos & Networking Documentation
• Follow-up:
  • Formula 1 on Apple TV
  • The case for alarm reminders (via Matthew Cave)
  • SVG can do animations — and way more! (via Vítor)
    • SVG can do THAT‽
  • Yes, you can use AI for ffmpeg, but have you tried Lossless Cut?
  • SF Symbols in Marco’s Reminder app (via Clarko)
  • How can we bemoan Electron and cheer WebViews? (via Julian Gamble)
  • If Finder moves are no good, are mvs the same?
  • Defrag lives on …in APFS
    • diskutil apfs defragment [disk] enable
      • [disk] is something along the lines of diske3 or disk3s1, that you get via diskutil list
    • MJ Tsai
  • AI Sentiment
    • AI levels… down?… your worst coworker (via Nathan)
    • Ireland compels data center developers to bring their own clean energy (via Ian Robinson)
      • Large Energy User Action Plan
    • Perspectives on art
      • Original Monet
• The Ferrari Luce
  • Previously on ATP
  • Purosangue
  • Jaguar I-Pace
  • BMW i3
  • BMW i8
  • GMA T.33
  • Porsche Taycan
  • Galleries
    • The Verge
    • Car and Driver
      • Exterior
      • Interior
  • Coverage
    • The Verge
    • Top Gear
    • Cleo Abram
    • MKBHD (stationary tour)
      • ba-dum tss
  • John’s EV Stupidity Checklist
    • Saturday Night Live
    • Affordance
• Post-show: RIP Destiny 2
  • Associated layoffs, because, of course
  • Destiny 1 on Wikipedia
  • Penny Arcade
• Members-only ATP Overtime: Bambu vs. its community
  • How one private message could change the face of 3D printing

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Chapters

1. A commendation
2. F1 corner
3. A use for alarm-Reminders
4. SF Symbols in webviews
5. SVG’s capabilities
6. LLMs for ffmpeg commands
7. Webviews good, Electron bad?
8. mv considered harmful?
9. APFS defrag for HDDs
10. AI sentiment
11. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
12. Ferrari Luce 🖼️
13. Sponsor: Zocdoc
14. Ferrari Luce, cont’d. 🖼️
15. Ending theme
16. RIP, Destiny 2

A commendation

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I wanted to actually commend something that I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you might find surprising. Oh, this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is surprising already. I genuinely don’t know where you’re going with this and I’m scared.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Something has been working every single time for me that used to never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco work. The most surprising thing is the product it involves. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco HomePod. I have no explanation for this, but for whatever reason, in the last, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe few weeks, maybe month, when I switch the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco output of my music app on my phone from the phone to a HomePod,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it now works every time. And it works quickly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And then when I’m done, like, you know, in the shower or whatever, and I switch the speaker back to my phone,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it also switches immediately and perfectly. The music does not lose

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco its place. And it works just as well with all of my, like, you know, iTunes matched self-uploaded

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco jam band concerts as it does with catalog tracks from Apple Music. This

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco has blown me away. So I wanted to, I spent so much time complaining about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco how badly the HomePod worked in specifically this way over so many years that I wanted to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco actually finally commend. I don’t know why it suddenly works. I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco seeing any release notes to this effect, but recently it started working and now it works

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco amazingly. So whoever at Apple did that, thank you so much

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from the bottom of my heart. I will now think about you every time I take a shower.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Hot. You’re very brave to say this on the program because it could be that nothing has changed and you’ve just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gotten extraordinary lucky. And guess what? Your luck just ran out. You jinxed it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Believe me, something changed because I assure you,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this never worked before. Like it would time out, it would drop, it would error out,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it would continue on the home pop, then the phone would lose it. And so there was no way to switch back and the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco phone would think it was still playing or it was playing something else. Like it was a disaster for so many years, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for some reason now it works exactly the way it was always supposed to work.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And it’s so much nicer now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I wish I could say the same about my Sonos Roam. I have a Sonos Roam 2 now because my one was just so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John flaky that I couldn’t deal with it. So I bought a second one. That’s my shower speaker, by the way. That’s why I’m thinking of it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and boy, does it not work the way it’s supposed to. Half the time, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Sonos doesn’t even show up as an AirPlay choice of places to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John play to, which just boggles my mind. I’m like, what is going wrong there? That it’s just, it’s not visible at all.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And so I just, luckily the Sonos Roam 2 has a Bluetooth mode, so I just switch the hardware into Bluetooth mode and play to it as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a Bluetooth speaker. But yeesh, that, I don’t know, you guys love Sonos, and I’ve never had any of the bigger

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Sonos ones, but the itty bitty little tiny Sonos Roam, It’s got the short end of the stick somewhere and just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John had problems since day one. I love it. I love the form factor. I love that it’s waterproof. It’s it’s, it is my, continues

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to be my shower podcast, listening speaker. I love everything about it except the five minutes I have to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John spend before each hour, getting it to work.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know, there is some Sonos news recently. Um, uh, full, first of all, I have a Rome

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey one and a move one. And although I will concede that I almost never airplay to either of them, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on the rare occasions that I do, I don’t typically have this problem and it seems to me that there are two camps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey when it comes to Sonos and AirPlay. And much like there are two camps with CEC, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey either a unicorn, which it appears I am for both, as I knock furiously on wood, or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you can’t use either. And that seems to be John’s predicament. So not sure what to say about that. However,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I will say there’s been actually a couple of developments in the Sonos ecosystem, particularly if you are a Ubiquiti

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey user. There was a a version of Ubiquity Network, which is like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the firmware for their networking devices, and the release video, which I will probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey forget to put in the show notes, and I apologize, but the release video specifically said something along the lines

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of, for difficult IoT devices,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and they have a video of them using the user interface for the Ubiquity stuff, and they specifically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey zoom in on a Sonos device, as they’re saying, for difficult IoT devices, They have some

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey stuff with, what is it, STP, I believe? Spanning Tree Protocol? Yeah, that’s right,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey STP. Where that has never cooperated well with Ubiquity. Like Sonos apparently

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey has a very old and slightly custom version of Spanning Tree Protocol, which my limited understanding means it’s how

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they figure out what the topology of the network is or something like that. I probably have that wrong, doesn’t matter.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And so there’s been some affordances in Ubiquity stuff as of late that will let you turn that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on and supposedly it works better with Sonos stuff. I tried that with my Arc Ultra and tried plugging

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it into Ethernet, which previously Ubiquiti was like, oh my God, what

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} are you doing?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I tried plugging my Sonos or my Arc Ultra into the Ethernet and it was, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey wasn’t, the Ubiquiti stuff wasn’t angry, actively angry about it, but it just wasn’t working

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey well. And that was frustrating. So I took it and put it back on wifi. However, this week

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey there’s a new Sonos app update, wherein you can enable or disable Sonos

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey NATs. Now, I don’t know if Marco or John, for that matter, if you’re familiar with Sonos NAT. Was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this like their like custom wifi, like secondary network they would run

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} on?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah. So in the defense of Sonos way back when, when they were brand new, wifi was terrible in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey everyone’s house. Even people with good wifi effectively had terrible wifi because the technology was just garbage.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And so what they would do is they would set up their own, not ad hoc, but I guess semi ad hoc or their,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey their own like peer to peer wifi network that was mostly invisible to anything but a Sonos device. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that’s how they would often communicate amongst themselves. And that was a brilliant idea 10

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey years ago, whenever Sonos was new, but—

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco More than that. Sonos is much older than you think.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Okay, there you go. So 15, 20 years ago, whatever it’s been. So it was a genuinely brilliant idea then,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey maybe not so great now. And it causes all sorts of problems, among other things with spanning tree protocol.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And so what they have announced this week is that They

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey have added a switch in the Sonos app where you can turn off SonosNet

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for your entire system. And they actually have some knowledge-based documents or whatever they call their, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pulp docs. And they talk about when should you use a wireless setup? When

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey should you use a wired setup? What if you have a kind of in the middle situation, which is what I was trying to do?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So I will link the knowledge-based article in the show notes. But I have yet to experiment with this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ve had an incredibly busy week, one of the busiest weeks I’ve had in a long time. And so I haven’t messed with this, but I am

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey curious to see if this works at all. Because when I had my Eero system, which I mostly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey am kind of ambivalent about, the Sono stuff actually worked great, wired, wireless, didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey matter. When I switched to Ubiquiti, everything about my networking life got better, except Sono stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And so I’m waiting for like the magic combination to get Sono stuff to work better with Ubiquiti.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And hopefully this is it. I’ll have to follow back up at some point when I can mess with it. you

F1 corner

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, let’s do some follow-up. First of all, I would like to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey bring us into a Formula One corner, where I was finally

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey able to watch a live broadcast of Formula One on Apple TV. If you recall, last time

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey we talked about this, I had said that I’d watched a replay or a rerun of a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey race a day or two later, maybe even later that day. And none of the fancy-schmancy affordances that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you can get from F1 TV, F1’s bespoke app and viewing system.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey None of those affordances seem to work on replays on Apple TV. And I was very excited to finally,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at some point, be able to watch a race live. So you can see like the multi-view and all that junk. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I finally watched the Montreal Grand Prix, which was very good and very weird. And I was able to try

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey all this stuff live. And I will make this very brief because I know neither of you care at all. And most of the listeners

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey probably don’t care too much. But suffice to say, I did really like their

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey feature that they had talked about way back when this was all announced, where you can get the top three

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey drivers. So imagine on your television, there’s a large like left

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of center, but effectively sort of kind of centered view of the live broadcast of the race where it’s changing cameras

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey all the time. And then on the right-hand side, you’ve get three picture in picture sort of situations.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I mean, well, I shouldn’t say picture in picture, they’re not overlaid on the broadcast, but you know what I’m saying? It’s like they’re tiled. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey so there’s three top to bottom and that’s the top three drivers. And as the top three drivers change, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey will change the three that are shown on the side, which I thought was really cool. Thought that worked really well.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey They also had multi-view in the spirit of F1 TV. However,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in the interest, I think, of being simpler, in F1 TV, what you do is you swipe, on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the Apple TV anyway, you swipe from right to left on your remote, and you get a list

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of all the different views you can have, the telemetry, the lap, where they are in the course,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like different tire situations and all of the onboard videos of all the 22 drivers.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And you can just add and remove them willy-nilly. Well, the way Apple TV does it is to start, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey just select a team. So you select a pair of drivers. Once you do that, you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey swap out and say like, have one McLaren driver and one Mercedes driver. But the way you activate multi-view

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is you basically select a pair of drivers, which isn’t bad, but was very surprising

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to me. However, and John, I know you probably are cheating, which I would be too if I were in your

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey shoes, because you’re looking at our internal show notes, but there was one critical issue with MultiView.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And John, could you guess what would make me upset or cheat and tell me what made me upset about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the MultiView as I was watching this race?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m kind of surprised that this would be upsetting to you. And I’d love for you to explain to me why. It would be upsetting to me for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sure, but why you?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So the issue is they have an affordance to let you know you need to swipe down

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in order to get to other multi-view settings, right? The, that affordance is a Chevron,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a down looking Chevron, which is fine. No issues there, except it never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey leaves your screen. And I have, floating above

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey my head saying, you know, you’re going to have that burnt in after a while. You shouldn’t do that. And so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m looking at my OLED TV. I mean, I know in the span of an hour or two, it’s not going to be enough,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I feel like I just I am I’m cringing I’m dying inside because there’s this freaking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey down Chevron that’s just sitting stationary on the screen and my LG OLED

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is from 2019 I believe and I’ve noticed that when I mute it It has you know a little mute

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey icon that you know what it does it dances up and down the right-hand side of the screen so you don’t get burn-in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or if you do it takes freaking forever because it’s Always you know it sits at one like Y coordinate for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t know ten seconds and swaps to a different Y coordinate for ten seconds This freaking Chevron as far as I could tell

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey just sits there the entire time and it made me so upset So all in all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this is I guess one and a half thumbs up for me. It is very good I still prefer f1 TV, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey again you get for free Well, you get as part of you know, your Apple TV plus one whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey situation You can you can link your f1 TV app or your f1 TV account with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey your Apple TV account And that’s how I will probably watch races from now on or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in in continue as I have in the past But this is worth checking out if you’re an American F1 fan. It was it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pretty good on

A use for alarm-Reminders

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, let’s talk about reminders. Matthew Cave writes, why set an alarm type

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey reminder? Well, it’s because it allows you to set an alarm more than 24 hours in advance. In my job, I often

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey have deliverables for other countries, leading to tasks that must happen in the middle of the night. Previously, I had

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to set reminders for the night before that told me nothing other than set an alarm for this time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Now I can set it and forget it many days in advance. Not everyone has this use case or anything similar, but it’s extremely useful for me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey This is completely fair, but what’s funny to me is that to my ears, Apple, or excuse me, Matthew

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is describing the iOS app, or there are several platforms, Deux, D-U-E,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which is perfect for this use case. But I get it, if that’s not for you, that’s totally fair.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, but if you want it, I don’t, I’m sorry, I don’t know if actually, if Deux supports this feature. For a long time,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco third-party apps could not have the same abilities as the built-in alarm

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco app in terms of overriding the silent switch and doing a disturb and things like that. There is now like an API

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or an entitlement to do that, but most apps don’t do it, but that is now available to third parties as

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of I think, maybe three-ish years ago. But this is a perfect example

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of why like, I never thought of this because yeah, if you want the alarm behavior from the alarm app,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it has to be just at the next instance of that time. So if it is more than 24 hours ahead of time,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can’t do it. And so that’s a good reason.

SF Symbols in webviews

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, so we also talked, I think it was last week, about how you were trying to use SF

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Symbols in Overcast in the context of a web view. And you were really struggling with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that. And I don’t think any of the three of us were particularly sure why that was such a struggle. But a friend of the show, Clarke,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey wrote in and said, the reason you can’t use bare text SF Symbols in WebKit is because they’re not actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in the system font. On macOS, you can use them in text if and only if you have the separate SF Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey font installed from, I guess, the Apple developer site. And that’s nearly impossible to do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco iOS. Yeah, I had no idea. And this was like part of like, as I was having AI kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of tell me like, how are there possible ways to get the vector data to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so I could render an SVG into the web view for an SF symbol. And there were a few

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco different approaches that were suggested to me or generated for me, most of which did not work.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And some of which involved like trying to use the system font and like, oh, yeah, that doesn’t actually work. or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco trying to like you know render it like get a list of every code point in the San Francisco you know in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the system font and for some reason they don’t appear in the list well here’s why and then sometimes there’s like oh

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco well you can if you can figure out the private code point for each one like so it seems

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like there are possibly workarounds but they’re terrible and the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the real workaround which ended up fully implementing and it is currently shipped in the overcast

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco beta is just to like have a web resource handler that runs locally in your app

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that like you call a special URL from the markup and it generates a ping

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco image that’s rendered from like a SwiftUI renderer of the SF symbol and it just serves

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it into the web view. So that’s what I’m doing now. It’s fine. It’s not as like conceptually pure as putting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a nice vector in there, But it works just fine.

SVG’s capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, Vitor writes with regard to SVG, and I don’t remember what the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey context was on this. Was this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} It was in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John SF Symbols discussion. You know, could SVG fully encompass

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everything that SF Symbols can do because Apple has extended SF Symbols to have multiple colors and animation and stuff like that. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it was the question, can SVG do animation? And Marcus said, oh yeah, it can totally do animation. Well, here’s some more on that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Right. So Vitor writes, yes, SVG can do animation and way more. Sarah Drasner has a a fantastic

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey talk on that, which is called SVG Can Do That. We will link this 40 minute talk

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on YouTube, which is basically like a demo reel of all the utterly freaking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey bananas stuff that SVG can do. I had no idea that like 90% of this was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey possible in SVG. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cause it supports, I think it supports most of CSS.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, it’s kind of like how, you know, all valid HTML is technically valid markdown. They’re just like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John SVG, it’s a thing with graphics, but also anything that WebKit can do, we can

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, it’s really bananas. I’m not saying you necessarily need to watch all 40 minutes of this video, but it was Astonishing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to me all of these demos and all the stuff that that SVG can do I definitely learned quite

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a lot thought about what was possible. So I want to check it out if you’re interested.

LLMs for ffmpeg commands

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, then we had talked about at some point, I presume last episode, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey know, my mind is melting right now. I’ve had a big week, but we talked at some point about LLMs

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to run or to at least come up with FFmpeg commands to losslessly trim video.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And Damian writes, I’ve been using the app lossless cut for the use case of FFmpeg you described and I can’t live without

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it. We will put a link in the show notes to the marketing page, but it is also on GitHub.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, the context of this was I was, we’re talking about, I think in the, maybe it was in like the vibe coded

⏹️ ▶️ ^John app section of something or whatever, that one of the main things I did with LMS asked them to do, to make

⏹️ ▶️ ^John FFmpeg commands for me to losslessly trim stuff. Since we had that discussion, I did vibe

⏹️ ▶️ ^John code myself a little, basically like a tiny little toy Mac app that just runs the FFmpeg

⏹️ ▶️ ^John commands for me. So I don’t have to ask a thing to do it. You know what I mean? It’ll just, you know, I just make an

⏹️ ▶️ ^John app and then I can use that. And then this lossless cut thing is what everyone else is using, which is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John way more fancy and sophisticated and much more capable of the tiny

⏹️ ▶️ ^John little toy thing that I made. But I will say doing the toy app, it reminded me, and I’m also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John reminded of this by seeing Jason Snell make one of his own little apps, vibe code one of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John his own little apps, just how awful these LLMs are at doing UI on the Mac. Like they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have no idea what they should be doing. Like when I, in my little vibe coded, like, you know, lossless

⏹️ ▶️ ^John trimming application, I just deleted the entire SwiftUI view that was the main view. I’m like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this is beyond repair. I just wrote it myself. It’s like three text fields and a button. Like, how can you mess this up?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But it found a way. So I just wrote that myself. And then I spent the rest of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John time basically arguing with it about how I wanted the text fields to work.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Again, I should have just done it myself. A part of this is like experimentation and seeing what the capability of these models are.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Because there’s a start and an end timestamp field. and I want them to be super duper flexible

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and allow me to, yes, write in the exact timestamp with colons between all the things and fractional seconds and stuff. But I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John also want to be able to type things like one minute five seconds, one M5S, with and without

⏹️ ▶️ ^John spaces, min, min, sex, sex, you know, like all the, like, I just want to be able to type anything that I could reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think of that I could type into this field and it should take it. And also, as I mentioned in an earlier discussion,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like I wanted to implement that feature that all the web dev tools have, which is if you put the insertion

⏹️ ▶️ ^John point in the minutes field and I hit the up arrow, which should make it go up a minute. And when it gets to 59, it should wrap, you know what I mean? Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just niceties of the fields. And I want, when you first click in the field, I want it to select the entire value, but I have edited the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John value and then I click in the field, I don’t want it to select the entire value, you know? Just the basic niceties

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of a Mac app. And I think it’s combination of LLMs having no idea how to make a decent

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Mac app, and also SwiftUI on the Mac, just like fighting you every step

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the way. Like the control, the Mac controls and SwiftUI, unlike the AppKit controls,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do not look and work correctly out of the box. Like you just, like I wanna have a label and a text field, label

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and a text field, and SwiftUI is like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Oh, did you mean this, this garbage? That’s nothing like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Mac? Like, no, that’s not what I meant. Like the defaults in SwiftUI for the Mac are wrong and bad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Anyway, I did look at the, I have the lossless cut thing, and I’m gonna probably use that from now on because it’s so much more capable,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but I put my insertion point in the minutes field and lossless cut hit the up arrow and it didn’t do what I wanted. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it just put the insertion point at the beginning of the field, which is the right thing to do for a Mac text field, but you know, if your whole app is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John around trimming to the beginning and the end, maybe add some niceties. So I’ll probably, maybe I’ll use my little trimmer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing too. And it’s so clear by the way that the LLMs had seen the source to lossless cut, which is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John open source, because a lot of the things they implemented in my trimming app, use like words and phrases for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John particular settings that are exactly from lossless cut. So yeah, good job LLMs.

Webviews good, Electron bad?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’d like to call this What About Corner, where we have a couple of entries. Julian Gamble writes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey with regard to using a web view in Overcast. Isn’t it incongruous to, on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey one hand, say that Electron apps are terrible, and on the other say that web views in your app are great because WebKit is amazing technology?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey No, it isn’t, for a couple reasons. First of all, Electron isn’t WebKit, right? It’s whatchamacallit,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that Chrome uses. Chrome, yeah, not that it matters, but yeah. I mean, that’s fair. But secondly, I feel like it’s quite

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a bit different to have an entire app running in the context of the web, as opposed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to leveraging the web for the things that it’s good at in the context of a native app. I mean, I don’t feel like it’s incongruous

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at all, if you think about it for more than a moment. I do understand what Julian’s saying, but I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey don’t think it’s unreasonable in any way, shape, or

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} form. No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco well, because there’s a huge difference between using WebKit or Electron

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or whatever, using that to render a rich text area versus using it for your entire

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco UI. WebKit is incredibly good at rendering rich text.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like that’s what it’s made for. That’s what it was designed for from the start. And while you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco implement entire application UIs in WebKit, like it is technically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco possible, but those tend to be worse in all these different ways than full native

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco UIs using native controls and native APIs. It isn’t to say it’s impossible to make good UI

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with WebKit, it’s just unlikely. Look, you can try and you’re probably not gonna succeed.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Whereas if you’re trying to render rich text and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do a lot of advanced things with text layout, like text with embedded images

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and stuff around the text or having issues like I was talking about last week with text selection

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco between different text nodes and everything, WebKit specializes in that. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as good as WebKit is at that, the native controls are as bad at those

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco things as WebKit is bad at UIs. So while it is possible

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to make good UIs in WebKit, you probably won’t. And while it is possible to make good,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco rich text displaying features with native apps, you probably won’t. The great thing is native apps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco give us the option to use both. You can have native controls for most of your app

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco where the native controls really excel, and you can use WebKit in an embedded web view

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco somewhere where you actually need rich text and the things that come along with it. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco an important distinction, but one that nobody really needs to make as a purist because you can just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco use both for what they’re good at.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And speaking of a WebKit and Electron apps and LLMs and vibe coding apps, when you ask

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them to make a Mac app, the UIs they come up with look like web UIs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John down to like having like blue, maybe it’s not always underline, but like blue clickable text and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like the conventions of the web appear and they think, is this a Mac UI? I’m like, well, I can see why

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you might think that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, to be fair, like that’s a Johnny Ive Mac UI. Like that’s, like Apple has made a lot of Mac UIs that look

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco exactly like that. And also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like Electron apps, obviously a lot of Electron apps look like that as well. So that’s, I mean, it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can be forgiven. Like maybe the LMs can be forgiven because it’s like the point I was making to Jason, it’s like these

⏹️ ▶️ ^John LMs don’t know how to make a good Mac app. But then again, these days, neither does Apple. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what do you expect them to learn from? So we’re in a dark time with Mac UIs here, But yeah, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John first shot out of the box from LLM, hey, make me a Mac app with SwiftUI. And it’s like, is this what you wanted? And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it looks like a frigging webpage. And that’s all with native controls, by the way. Like there’s multiple layers. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Electron as the technology, and there’s also like, what does the UI look like? And they are somewhat connected in that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one leads you in a particular direction, but you can use fully native SwiftUI and make a UI

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that looks like a web app.

mv considered harmful?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, and then continuing the what about corner Why mark or something like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that writes does John’s skepticism about using the move command modifiers in the finder?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Extend to using the Unix MV commander move command if so Why if not,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey what do you think is different between the two wouldn’t they be built similarly?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah My objection was to using a modifier at the finder that turns what would be a copy operation into a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John move operation That’s where the danger lies. Not just like moving a file within a volume on the finder, because that is just going to end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John up doing like essentially a rename system call into the covers. And like, that’s exactly the same as the MV command.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But it’s like when you’re doing something across volumes, if you drag a file from one volume to another, you see the little plus

⏹️ ▶️ ^John badge appear on your cursor because it’s telling you, hey, I’m going to copy this. And if you hold down command, it will go away.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And it’ll say, oh no, actually I’m going to move it. And copying it is fine, obviously. Moving it is a basically a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John two-step operation because it can’t actually move it with the like, you know, the system call that would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John actually move a file because it’s a different volume. It has to first copy it over there, and then when it’s done copying it, it has to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John delete the source. And at various times, the Finder has had bugs where that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John process could mess up where it’s like, I’ve successfully copied it and I’ve deleted the source, and you look at the place where it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John supposed to copy it and it’s not there, but the source is also deleted. That’s what I’m saying to avoid. So it’s really no connection

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the MV command. I believe the MV command would not work across volumes, so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t quote me on that, because I haven’t actually tried it on the Mac or in any, yeah, in any recent Unix for that matter.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But yeah, don’t worry about just like moving a file in the finder by like dragging it from one folder to another within a volume, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John perfectly fine.

APFS defrag for HDDs

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, let’s talk about APFS on spinning hard drives. David McKeitch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey writes, I’ve recently switched back to using Time Machine. I’ve had issues with degrading performance

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on APFS hard drives in the past, so I decided to enable defragmentation using the diskutil command line

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey tool. Today I learned that you can defrag an APFS disk. I had no idea.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Anyway, there’s some details on this that I think, John, you’d like to

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} add as well. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the command is just diskutil apfs defragment then the disk name and then enable. So you’re enabling

⏹️ ▶️ ^John defragmentation. And I think the disk, the man page is okay about this, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what they want you to put in the disk is something like disk three or disk three S1. You can get that info from using disk.util to list

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your devices and stuff. But anyway, it’s not particularly friendly, but you can figure it out. And the disk.util man page says this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about the APFS defragment enable feature. It’s manage

⏹️ ▶️ ^John automatic background defragmentation of user file data. That’s a mouthful, but the point is, This is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not a command that you run and it does defragmentation. This enables quote unquote, automatic

⏹️ ▶️ ^John background defragmentation. I don’t know why it says of user file data as opposed to what, like, is it just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John saying that it doesn’t do it on the read-only system volume? But anyway, that feature exists. I would only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John use that on spinning disks and not on SSDs, but just FYI, it’s there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, and then we’ll also put a link to us in NJSCI roundup in the show notes. David

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey continues, I’ve enabled this on two drives, a drive for projects and a backup drive, and so far so good. Does

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this defrag option really help? When does it run? Why is it hidden away? And additionally, should Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey create a subset of APFS specifically for spinning hard drives to address these issues? So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you follow the MJ side link, you’ll see that a lot of people are reporting that it does help. I never ran it on my spinning

⏹️ ▶️ ^John disk. I probably should have. I’m assuming if the command exists that it actually does something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and that it runs in the background. And I think the reason it’s hidden away is because spinning disks

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are a legacy thing as far as Apple’s concerned, and so they’re not going to emphasize anything related to them. I’m actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John kind of surprised that it exists at all, but it probably does exist from back when they were first developing APFS and they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John didn’t know how fast as the adoption would go. They didn’t have an eye towards that working well

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on on spinning disks, but they figure, well, maybe we should have this defragmentation feature anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Maybe it’ll help on SSDs. I’m assuming Apple determined that it doesn’t really help at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all on SSDs. So that’s why it’s kind of buried in an obscure backwater. We’ve talked about APFS features before

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that technically exist but have either been abandoned or just like left in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an incomplete state for years and years. So this may fall into that category, but it is officially supported

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and it’s in the man page so I would feel perfectly comfortable doing it. And if it helps and makes your spinning disk performance and APFS

⏹️ ▶️ ^John better than you know, go for it. And again, the reports from the few users I saw reporting in the say that it did help

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them.

AI sentiment

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, let’s talk about AI sentiments. We talked about this. Was this overtime last week, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey believe? It was like the main topic. Oh, my bad. All right. My bad. Anyways, we talked about, you know, how

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey everyone is crotchety about AI, which is fair. Nathan writes, one thing y’all might have missed in the long

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey list of AI objections, thanks to your self-employment, workplace behavior. Imagine

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the dumbest, laziest, most malicious person you’ve ever worked with. Now arm them with a tool that can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey generate mountains of reports, JIRA tickets, internal documentation spam, and sprawling poll requests

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey with dozens of co-pilot comments, hundreds of changed files, thousands of changed lines, and a long nonsensical

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey description. They bury the rest of us in slop, and the execs applaud it. Woof.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Nathan does make

⏹️ ▶️ ^John me glad that I left that world before LM coding agents came along, but a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bad workplace experiences begin with the premise that is, imagine the dumbest, laziest, most malicious person you ever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John worked with. I have no problem I’m imagining that person. I work with that person. Technology can enable them to be worse.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John There’s lots of those people. Hopefully, I’ve never been that person. But yeah, that person is going to find a way to make everyone’s life miserable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no matter what. But I can imagine coding agents being accelerant in particular for developers of that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bent.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think one thing I wanted to address on the AI sentiment angle,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think one of the biggest things to keep in mind when thinking about what do regular

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people who are not tech enthusiasts like us, what do they think of AI? Where are they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco seeing AI? In most of the world, that’s not having fun generating Mac apps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with AI, they’re seeing AI make their lives worse in a few

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ways. So either if they work in a field that AI is destroying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the market for, that’s going to directly impact them in a really big, possibly very negative way.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But also, everyday life, when you call a call center,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco now you’re hitting AI agents. When you try to get customer support, now you’re hitting AI agents. Customer support

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in general is now being made significantly worse in lots of areas

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because now they’re putting AI agents in front of, you know, between you and getting your problem solved by

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco somebody who actually has, you know, the power to do it. I’ve seen this myself, and I’m sure everyone else is seeing it even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco more than I am. So what most people see about the world of AI

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is things in their life are being made worse. And they don’t necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco see the upside for them. Because maybe there isn’t one or at least maybe there isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one yet or maybe there isn’t one directly. So what most people are seeing is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco AI is making my life more annoying or it’s making it harder for me to make a living. And they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco not seeing the upside. Also, AI is now being added to a bunch of, you know, subscription-based

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco products, and then the prices are going up, and the companies are saying, we’re now delivering you so much

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco more value with our new AI bot that’s in our product, and therefore we need to raise our price. And the people are

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like, well, what if I don’t want that, and I don’t want to pay the higher price? Can I just keep paying the old price and not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have your stupid AI that I didn’t ask for that you’re shoving in my face? So I think we really have to be aware of, like, what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco most people are actually seeing from quote AI, like the world of AI that they’re seeing,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think for a lot of people, it’s just making their lives harder or more annoying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or harder to make money in.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I think just AI being force-fed to everyone is just not great.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And think about, you know, too, like where is all this value that’s being created, where is it going?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s going to a few companies at the top. That’s where it’s going. Like there’s lots of ways

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that AI can make individual workers more productive. it can help small businesses. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco lots of ways that it can help and that it is helping. But where most of the value

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco now, like so far, is going is it’s making a few very rich people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco even richer. And that’s a pretty bad selling proposition for everyone else

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whose lives are being made worse by AI being, you know, destroying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco their job or being used in places that make their their lives harder to get around

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Ian Robinson continuing the AI sentiment chat. Ian Robinson said, you mentioned legislators

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey mandating that data center construction should include clean energy production. Ireland has done exactly that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey We’ll link to Ireland tells data center developers to bring their own clean energy. Ian continues,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey see also the Irish government LEAP, which is Large Energy User Action Plan Program, which we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey will also link to in the show notes. All right, then we also

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey had a hilarious petapixel, I don’t know how to pronounce it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} P-E-T-A-pixel.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey There you go, thank you. Hilarious petapixel article, which was sent to us by Dave Aiton. This

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is Michael Zhang writing it. Someone shared an actual Monet painting as an AI-generated

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey artwork and asked people to explain what makes the quote-unquote AI image inferior to a genuine Monet piece. So again,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they’re baiting people by putting up an actual painting from the actual Monet and saying,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey oh, what do you think is wrong with this AI piece and the responses are just incredible. John

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey has been kind enough to curate a few for us. The first one, there’s no cohesion to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the depth and color choices. The reflection of the tree blends into the lily pads with no regard for spatial

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey depth or contrast. The background lily pad algae amalgam is egregiously vague, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey most AI art. Egregiously vague, I love that. The second example,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the reflection in AI art is just noise splattered right. Monet actually understood how light behaves on water.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Third one, slop. Doesn’t look anywhere near like a Monet. Looks exactly like somebody

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey trying to replicate style in achieving like 20% of it. Not as vibrant as Monet’s typical choice of colors,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey looks dull. Finally, an amateur or as an amateur art enjoyer, the only criticism

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I can offer is the AI generated image does not make me feel anything. It does not conjure emotion, thought or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey wonder. It’s just a colorful wallpaper pattern. If you look up Monet painting in Google images,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you feel something. Just incredible work, everyone. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this, I put this article in here, not to dunk on people who don’t, don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Monet painting, but just to show that this is an embodiment of the sentiment about AI, because most people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John aren’t art experts and they don’t know every painting and they don’t know, like, you know, not every Monet painting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is as good as all the other ones, right? Like any other humans output. Right. So, but it’s just like because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they were primed with, this is an AI image, all of their sort of vitriol for the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John basic concept of AI comes streaming out and they end up, you know, making fools of themselves

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by saying that this is like 20%. Or maybe Monet would agree. Maybe he’d say, yeah, this is one of my 20% paintings.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It took me a little while to find this one. We’ll link to a Wikipedia

⏹️ ▶️ ^John page showing that, yes, this is in fact actually a Monet paint, a real Monet painting.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I guess some people didn’t like it, but yeah, this is just, this is really just like, If you tell me it’s AI,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m already going to hate it. And let me tell you why.

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Ferrari Luce

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey If you’ll permit us, there’s been some pretty big news in the car world, and so we’re going to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey do a main show neutral. And this is in no small part because it has been requested many,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey many times. John, your future car has arrived.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey The, I’m sure, extraordinarily affordable Ferrari Luce,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which is apparently starting at about the equivalent of $650,000. So let me just drop

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey here, ATP.fm slash join. This from the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} outside. Nicely done.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No amount of members is going to get us into this car. I’m sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} You never know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Don’t be defeatist, John. Don’t be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John defeatist. If every person in the United States became a member, we’ll see how we do.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, right. All right. So here’s the thing from my personal opinion, we’ll go through the specs,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but my My personal opinion is from the outside, this is an abomination. From the inside, it looks great. But let’s talk about what it is.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, so the specs are, it is a five seat, you know, as you would expect of an average sedan, four

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey door liftback sedan Ferrari. I don’t, they’ve never done a sedan, is that right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That’s not an SUV or something along those

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} lines? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m going to debate you on whether this is a sedan, but the Paris-Saint-Guey is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John four door, four seat. It doesn’t have a third seat and it doesn’t have a middle seat in the back seat. So this is their first

⏹️ ▶️ ^John five seat ever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Thank you for the correction, John. So yeah, this is five seats, four doors, it’s lift back. But what’s interesting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is the rear doors open, I guess you could say backwards. So if you imagine the side

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of the car, where the front door opens, like where the B

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pillar where the front door opens, that is also where the rear door begins to open,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which is different than almost every sedan that you’ve ever seen. I think a lot of Rolls Royces do this. There’s been

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey plenty of cars in in the past to do this. I have a car in my garage that does this. Oh, that’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} The i3 does that, doesn’t it? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the Ferrari’s own Paris-Sangui does this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Ah, there you go. And also, I think that this was perhaps most famously for people of our age. Whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was, it was a Lincoln, I think, that was in the original Matrix that did this as well. I want to say it was a Continental. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} have that wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s very common. It’s been common more in the past than lots of fancy cars have done it, I think, as a throwback

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the past. But occasionally, I think the reason the i3 does it is when you have a rear door that’s very, very tiny,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s just easier to have it open that way and just have one big opening. Didn’t the Honda Element do this as well? No, I believe that’s right. Yeah, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Honda Element, I think, doesn’t have a B pillar. But anyway, they chose to do that with their back doors. They’re sort of rear hinged.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yep. It has 1035 horsepower, 730 pound-feet of torque, which is quite a lot. For perspective, if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not a car person, my Volkswagen has somewhere around 300 horsepower and 300 pound-feet of torque.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t think that’s entirely right, but it’s in the ballpark. It is a quad

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey motor, all-wheel drive car. There is a motor per wheel, which is pretty cool. I think what are the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey original launch edition Rivians have like

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} it had that it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they still do. Ravine, you can still get a Rivian with a motor per wheel, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, you can. They they used the the original one like the one I had was quad motor. That

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco was the first batch they sold. I think we’re all quad motors. But then, of course, that’s that’s fairly expensive and cumbersome.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so they they fairly quickly after that launched like dual and eventually tri

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco motor versions.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, yeah, I knew about the tri. I hadn’t realized that the launch edition or whatever it was was quad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} There’s a couple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John other EVs that also have motor per wheel. It is a straightforward thing to do. It helps you avoid lots

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of issues with torque vectoring, differentials, and stuff. You just put a motor on each wheel.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah. It has around 330 miles of range, which is about 530 kilometers, a 122 kilowatt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey hour battery, zero to 60 in about two and a half seconds, which is pretty

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey solidly in supercar territory as far as I’m concerned. Maybe not when you consider electric vehicles, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey amongst gasoline vehicles, that is astonishingly fast. It is just over 5,000 pounds, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is about 2,300 kilograms. It can charge as fast as 350 kilowatts and starts, as I mentioned, at about $650,000.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But that’s unofficial because US pricing has yet to be announced.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So from the outside, I think the first person I saw say this was Stephen

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Hackett, if I’m not mistaken, although many people have said it since. This is like Johnny Ive

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey shipped the Magic Mouse as a car. And what, why am I even bringing up Johnny Ive? I should have explained

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a little bit. So when Ferrari was designing this, they actually contracted LoveFrom, which is Johnny

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Ive, Mark Newsome, and their whole team to do basically all of the design

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for this car, despite the fact that Ferrari has its own in-house design team. And they have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey done nearly all the design. And from the outside, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey hate this thing. It’s gotten, I hate it less now that it’s been, that I’ve been sitting with it for several

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey days, but I really, maybe I don’t hate it, but I really don’t like it like a lot, a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey John, what do you think about it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, this is where I get to, before you saying that calling this a sedan, when I saw this car, I’m like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John oh, it’s a Jaguar I-Pace. If you don’t know what a Jaguar I-Pace is, picture a Waymo in your head, because Waymo

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uses the Jaguar I-Pace as the foundation of its Waymo cars in San Francisco. I think they have used

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a couple of different cars, but the one I think the most common one on the street these days is the Jaguar I-Pace.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The Jaguar I-Pace is not a sedan, OK? It is not really an SUV. It’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of like a crossover thing. I really need to sort of codify this in some way,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because I instinctively know it when I look at these vehicles. But I think maybe one of the measurements would be like distance

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from the top of the front wheel arch to the top of the hood, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the points where the windshield intercepts. But anyway, the I-PACE looks like a very sleek four-door

⏹️ ▶️ ^John SUV-ish kind of thing. It doesn’t look like a sedan. It’s too upright and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John tall to be a sedan. And the Ferrari Luce is similar, that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t, especially since you don’t really get an idea from these pictures how big it is, to give you an idea

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you’re a car person and you look at this and you haven’t seen the videos already the wheels are 24 and 23 inches. Oh my God.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They don’t look like that in the picture. Because if you think this is like a sedan,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John rearrange your measurements, because that’s a 24 inch wheel on the back. And now look at it and think,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if that’s a 24 inch wheel, how high is this thing? Now it is lower than the Paris-Sangui, which is Ferrari’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John quote unquote SUV, but I wouldn’t call this a sedan. But these days, like every

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sedan, like even like the Toyota Crown, I look at it, I’m like, are you still a sedan? I’m not sure, because everything’s got to be tall and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John upright and look like an SUV. But yeah, it totally looks like an I-PACE, which is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a terrible thing to imitate because I think the I-Pace is actually a reasonably attractive vehicle. In fact, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think the I-Pace is significantly better looking than this Ferrari. I mean, it is less Johnny

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Ive than this Ferrari for sure, but this car does not particularly appeal to me. There’s a couple of areas where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I feel like Johnny really blew it or the team really blew it on this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John One question I had that I didn’t see answered in any of the interviews, and granted I didn’t see all of the interviews, we’ll link to the ones that we talk about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John here and we’ll talk about a couple of them in more depth, but the ones I looked at, I didn’t see anyone ask

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them the question. I think I know the answer, but I would love to see them answer it, which is, did

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Ferrari come to love from and say, you have to make a four door, five seat

⏹️ ▶️ ^John vehicle? Like, or was that a decision of love from? Because I feel like that changes things a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m assuming Ferrari came to them because the way Ferrari revealed this car is they said, here

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is our, you know, battery with motors and wheels and suspension and nothing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John else. Do you remember when they showed

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} that?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Was that different from when Johnny Ives showed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John only

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} the dashboard? Right. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John then later, they showed only the dashboard and we talked about it on the show. And we’re going to talk about it again here, but they revealed the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fully entire interior, but not inside anything, just disembodied. Like here’s the wheel. Here’s the, like, it was just the pieces

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of it. We’re just floating around. So now we get to see them in context with the whole rest of the interior. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey believe the word you’re looking for, John, is deconstructed. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then finally they revealed the entire thing. So I’m assuming that Ferrari said, you have to make

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a four-door five-seat thing. And by the way, here’s the measurements because we’ve got the, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the, you know, the battery, the motors, like Love From didn’t design that. That’s Ferrari’s engineering

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that came up with that. They said, here are your constraints. Now build a car on top of this, which as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one of the points was made in one of the interviews, like, it’s pretty much a blank canvas because of the way EVs are. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, you’ve got a big, long, flat floor because of that battery, there’s no tunnel or anything. So like, whatever you want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do car-wise on top of this, you only have a very few hard points that you have to meet. You’ve got the top of the suspension

⏹️ ▶️ ^John geometry, you’ve got the wheelbase, and that’s basically it. You can do anything you want. They could have made it lower,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they could have made it taller, they could have made it longer, they could have made it shorter in terms of overhangs and stuff, right? And maybe they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even could have adjusted the wheelbase. Um, but if that’s the design brief, which is you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going to make a four door electric Ferrari with five seats, uh, what they came up with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as everyone has pointed out and as the Virgin is typical blunt headlines

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pointed out, uh, here’s, this This is what their headline said. Johnny Ives Ferrari looks nothing like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a Ferrari. I said this about the interior. I said that when we saw the pieces of the interior, this doesn’t look

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a Ferrari interior. It looks like an interior that Johnny Ives company would make. They put for our

⏹️ ▶️ ^John badges on it and stuff. And the car is similar. And to Ferrari’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John credit slash, I don’t know, as as way of explanation, this is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a Ferrari is pitching this as this is not a mistake that the idea was,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John make this car and don’t worry about what Ferraris look like. This is like a separate

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing. In fact, going so far as having the CEO, I believe the CEO of the company was saying, if you love internal

⏹️ ▶️ ^John combustion Ferraris, don’t buy this car. Because, duh, I mean, like, you know, but the point is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re not saying, hey, do you love internal combustion Ferraris? Well, you’re gonna love this EV. The CEO is saying, no, you won’t. You

⏹️ ▶️ ^John won’t love this, it’s not the thing. And their designer made the point in one of the interviews that we’re gonna link to,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is a somewhat fair point, but on the other hand, not quite fair. He said, well, in Ferrari,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we don’t make cars that look like each other. And that’s not true of a lot

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of car makers. I mean, not to pick on Volvo, but look at Volvo. If you look at Volvo’s entire lineup,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’ll see a family resemblance. Like some of them might be fraternal twins. They look very

⏹️ ▶️ ^John similar. Design elements from a given design language of Volvo are spread across

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the entire line. Whereas if you look at every individual Ferrari model, Yeah, there is commonality, and in fact,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I would say more so now than there used to be, but every individual car is like its own shape.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Its own thing. And so I said, well, this one’s just another one. It’s also its own shape. That’s true. It

⏹️ ▶️ ^John doesn’t borrow from other cars just the same way like the, you know, the SF90 doesn’t borrow from the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John F430 or whatever. But this one, like one of these things is not like the other. You line up the entire

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Ferrari Ferrari car lineup, including the Puro Sangue, which is this existing four-door,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John four-seat quote-unquote SUV that looks very similar to this in terms of proportion and shape,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it looks nothing like it if you put them next to each other. So this is intentionally outside the realm

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of Ferrari. It’s an EV. It’s not trying to be an internal combustion engine. It’s not trying to look like a Ferrari.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And in that regard, it has succeeded in not looking like a Ferrari because it does not look like a Ferrari.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John As for whether it looks good or not, I have my picks for which aspects of it I like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John least. But what are your least favorite parts of the outside of this car?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I have to say, I don’t hate it as much as everyone else does.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But those, the doors, oh no. The doors are bad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That’s like, to me, that’s the one big problem I have with it is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco those backwards opening doors because I have like Tiff

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco my wife’s car has those backwards opening doors and it makes the car

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so annoying to get in and out of if anyone’s in the backseat like anyone that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s you have to like you know squeeze around like oh you go and know you go ahead first now you go in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like if you’re if you’re between like if you’re parked in a parking lot of regular parking lot like with you know spots that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco line up you know that way like squeezing around the door to get the backseat door

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco open and get it. Like, it’s such a pain in the butt. And I think, okay, why did they do that? And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I look at the shape of the car and I’m like, it didn’t need that. Like it almost, I think it would have been better off

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just as a two-door car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, this is a really big car. Like that’s the thing I was trying to get across with the size of the wheels. Like I know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the i3 is tiny in the back, the little rear hinge back doors

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} are also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John tiny, but there is tons of interior space in this car. This door is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John big, but to your point, And if you want to see this, we’ll link various links in the notes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where you can see pictures of it. But a lot of them shows the overhead view of the car with all four doors open. And the point Marco

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is making is, if you look at that picture, you can see that the aperture

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the front and rear passenger is narrow. And both the front and rear passenger have to go through that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John little narrow opening. That’s what you’re talking about. Like, oh, no, you first. No, you. Why are you saying that? If they were normal opening

⏹️ ▶️ ^John doors, the person going in the front door would have their little place where they go. And the person opening the back door would have their little place where they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John go and they would both open their door simultaneously and they would both get into the car. But here, when you open the doors,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’re creating one slightly narrower passage that both people have to pass through to get to their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John entrance into the car. And that is silly. It’s not as dumb as the Falcon wing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John doors on the Model X. And I’m sure it is inspired by the various Bentleys that Johnny Ive owns and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And by the way, for his obsession with symmetry, because hey, look from above, it looks nice and symmetrical, doesn’t it? But it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John worse, it’s worse

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco than regular doors. I also, I do not like what they have done

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to the front face. Like the way it kind of like, it’s like almost

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco inset a little bit. Like I don’t know. It’s not a lot. There are parts of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the front, especially like the way that the dashboard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco slopes down into like the hood area. There are parts of it that actually remind me a lot of the BMW

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco i8. And I actually, I think the i8, while it was a very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco weird car, I think it’s actually a very striking and

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} very cool.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The i8 is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco way better looking than this car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} But yes, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have to agree. You can see it’s going for a similar style there,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but I think the i8 does a much better job of it. And the way the tail light section is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco kind of like inset also, it almost feels like somebody

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco took a Ferrari and stuck a really weird body kit around it. And I don’t know, I…

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco The other thing though is that it is very, very clear to me that, as you were saying, this is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a Johnny Ive designed car. This is not a Ferrari in any way, shape

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or form. I actually think parts of this are very cool looking. And the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco interior definitely looks better than the exterior, no question.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} Yes, 100%.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like, the interior I think is very nice, and I would like much of that, or all of that, in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a car of mine. But yeah the exterior it just looks like. Yeah this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this is what johnny i’ve has been trying to do for like fifteen years was design

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this car and ferrari let him do it and for all the good and bad that comes with a johnny

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco i’ve that’s you know. In in this in his fully developed form

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with no one to hold him back anymore this is what happens and there’s a lot of good there

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and there’s a lot of bizarre and weird there. And I do, I don’t want to gloss over the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco fact that much of it though is very good. I do like a lot of this and in fact,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if this was, you know, suppose this was just like, you know, a high-end BMW

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or Mercedes, you know, if this was like a $90,000 EV from a luxury brand,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that would be, you know, competing with like, you know, the former Model S and, you know, like the BMW

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco iX and stuff like that. Yeah, that would actually be a pretty compelling option.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But where it is now, trying to be a Ferrari, trying to embody

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Ferrari spirit and design, and priced as a Ferrari priced

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco vehicle, I don’t quite know who this is for besides Johnny himself.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, I can tell you who it’s for, but we’ll get to that in a little bit. Casey, what’s your least favorite exterior?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think the turban style wheels, which you see sometimes, they are

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey freaking terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You’re talking about the arrow ones, the ones that are like dinner plates. Like that’s kind of the problem. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^John curse of EVs is if you get the wheels, the wheel covers that cover the entire wheels, it’s better for your mileage, but they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John look worse.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yes. Yeah, like the Tesla Model 3 ones, I can’t envision them just off the top of my head, but I remember thinking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they were not good, but not nearly as offensive as these are. It’s pretty bad. I also don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like that there’s a grab handle on the front, not literally of course, but like, you know, where the Ferrari logo

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is, there’s a gap beneath the Ferrari logo where the body isn’t, if that makes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey sense, on the front. So like where there would be a hood, there’s like a floating sort

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of situation,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} which I- It

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey has

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a front and rear wing. It’s the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} thing in the back as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well. It’s basically got a full width front wing and a full width rear wing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t mind it as much in the back. In fact, I don’t think the back looks that bad, but I really dislike basically everything

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey going on in the front. I’m not as offended by the rear doors. I don’t disagree with what you two were saying with it, with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it being difficult or more difficult for ingress and egress. I don’t debate that, but from an aesthetic

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey point of view, I don’t really mind them opening the way they do. I don’t care for the weird panel

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in the front doors, like the black panel that’s hanging out for some reason. I’m sure there’s a reason

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for it, but I don’t know why. Um, but on the exterior, I just, I really don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey care for it. I extremely don’t care for it as a Ferrari,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and I don’t think I particularly care for it as anything nicer than like a Kia. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t love it. I don’t know what I think also about the windshield wipers. They

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey made a big deal in one of the videos that I watched. They made a big deal about the fact that the windshield wipers park

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey vertically

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} rather than horizontally. Why?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey There was a reason that I can’t recall. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} think it’s-

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I can tell you why as well. So this is one of my pet peeves with what very expensive cars are doing with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John their windshield wipers these days. So the windshield wipers, when they are not windshield wiping

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in their at-rest position, they are positioned on the A pillars. That means vertically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the far left and far right edge of the windshield. That’s where they sit, straight up

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the edges of the windshield going from the top to the bottom of the A pillars. The reason that they explain why

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re there is because, as Marco mentioned before, that the windshield slopes down

⏹️ ▶️ ^John underneath the front wing, essentially. It’s not clear to me, because I haven’t seen enough things, whether the windshield glass

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ends and then another piece of glass continues, or whether it’s one continuous piece of glass, or whether it’s glass and metal, but either way,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the shape defined by the windshield continues all the way to the nose of the car underneath the front wing,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and therefore, if the windshield wipers rested where they do on a normal car, horizontally, there’s no

⏹️ ▶️ ^John place to hide them from the wind. On a normal car, there’s like a cowl where the windshield wipers kind of tuck into a little cowl.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when they’re not windshield wiping so the air flow goes over them and doesn’t hit them. And so they needed some place,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because if they put the windshield wipers there, they would be directly in the airflow that is coming under the front wing and they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on their way up the smooth glass over the top of the car, they would hit these gigantic windshield wipers. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John instead, the windshield wipers are vertical, so they’re not in the airflow that is going to smoothly go over

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the windshield and through the back of the car. They’re still in the airflow over the A pillars, but the A pillars are already there. So they’re kind of hiding in that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John position. It looks weird. It looks weird when they’re moving. And I really, the trend I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like is windshield wipers that are vertical when not in use. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one that kills me the most is one of my favorite cars and one of my like money, no object, what car would you want?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The GMA T50 has a, one of those windshield wipers

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that is vertical when not in use, and it’s dead in the center of the windshield, just straight up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What? When it’s a sunny day, that’s just vertically straight up in the center of the windshield, right

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in your field of view. And it’s just like, wow. No thanks, I don’t like that, please stop it. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this one, they hit it by the A pillars. And I think it screws up the look of the car because you’re always looking at these giant windshield

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wipers. Whereas if they had an integrated, a little cowl, when it’s not raining, you wouldn’t even see the windshield wipers, they’d

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be hidden away.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But I’m looking at a picture of a GMA T50 and the windshield wipers are horizontally where you would

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey expect them to be, like center mounted.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Maybe I’m thinking of the T33, I might be off. One of the GMA cars has a vertical windshield

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wiper or it might be the T50S or something like that. Check the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey T30. Oh, it looks like the T33. I think you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} right about that. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that is freaking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John terrible. Yeah, my bad. T33 is also, I think that’s why. T33 is the car I’d probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John rather have because all the central seating position on a T50 is great. It’s annoying to get in and out of, so I’d probably actually want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a T33, but it’s got the windshield wiper there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, that would kill it for me. That’s like, you know, that’s even worse than no car plays as far as I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John concerned. Here’s my take on the exterior of this car. I agree with what Marco said, that the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John back of the car looks weird because it looks like there is like a Ferrari 360 or like this car eight.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They, I mean, again, you’ll have to look at the images

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to get what this looks like, but it’s like, here’s the back of a car, but it’s like hollow and inside it is another little car screaming to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get out. And they

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} emphasize this in some of their design videos.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The official design videos from Ferrari is like, look, we have this kind of like, the part that is in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John black, like this is a two-tone type of thing. Like the body is like red in these examples and like the canopy is black.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And so is the roof is black. Take off the red part. And what you have is just this smooth

⏹️ ▶️ ^John kind of black lozenge that slopes really, really low down on the front and really, really low down in the back. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John then put the red part onto the car. And the red part forms the front wing and the back wing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and some side cladding on it or whatever. So they’re emphasizing like there’s an inner car and an outer car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I think in the front, maybe that’s okay. Although from the side, it does look like a literal open

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mouth. Like you can see from the side, the front of this car, the silhouette of this car has a C-shaped

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mouth at the front that you can see. Like literally there’s just nothing there. It’s just, it’s a little mouth.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then the back, it looks like that’s their Nanta Ferrari. Like those two, four circular headlights, the 4030 had them and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the 360 had them. I’m not sure if it’s been, you know, but that’s a Ferrari-ism. That is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John probably the only part of this car that looks like a Ferrari. If you’re following it at night, you’d be like, oh, is that a Ferrari? Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you see the headlights. That’s like a signature headlight pattern. I think it was Casey

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mentioned the black thing behind the front wheels. This, I feel like, is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one of the worst things on this entire car. I believe this is a real vent. It’s to relieve pressure from the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John front wheel wells. Lots of cars have these. I’m sure you can think of lots of cars that have things there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The worst sin of this particular black thing, well, first of all, they’ve emphasized it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by not making a body color so it stands out more. And I mean, I can’t tell if

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this is just a trick of the images. I think it’s not a trick. I think it’s a real thing. Look at it in a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John dead-on side view. that black vent thing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is not perpendicular with the ground. It is tilted forward, which means that were

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you to draw a line from the front of that to the back of that, it would point upwards,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not exactly horizontal. In other words, when the car is speeding along the road,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what you want are like speed lines that are windswept that are exactly parallel to the ground in the direction

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of travel. But this thing leads your eye not in the direction of travel, but slightly up, Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s tilted so that it’s equidistant from the front cut line for the front door. But that’s not what you want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to do. You want something that makes the car look fast and streamlined. You don’t want it to be canted forward. You want it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to look like the wind has shaped it. What a terrible mistake. Like it makes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the whole front of the car very awkward. Like I just feel like going to Photoshop, taking that and going like, move

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it back, rotate it, and just, ugh. That’s the least of this car’s problems, John.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It is one of the worst things because this is such a common design element on tons of tons of cars, and they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John found a way to screw it up that I’ve never seen anyone do before. Like, this is emphasized a few times

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in the interviews, even from Ferrari people. And I’m like the Ferrari’s head designer,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I forget what his name is, makes the point when he’s sitting there with Johnny Ive in one of the interviews that like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and don’t forget, this is the first car you’ve ever designed it’s like, we can tell. We can tell.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Don’t forget, you’re not car designers. Like, yeah, no, I know. Like, good, this is a good first, it’s amazing first

⏹️ ▶️ ^John try. Like, they’re world-class designers, but they’re not car designers. And this car they’ve designed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John doesn’t look like it was designed by car designers. And the final thing I’ll say for the outside is, because again,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we had seen the inside and we’re gonna talk about the interior in a little bit. The final thing I’ll say about the outside is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this is not unprecedented territory. A storied sports car brand

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wants to make an electric vehicle and it’s going to be four doors. To show an example of how you actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do a good job at this, Porsche Taycan. It’s from Porsche.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re known for two-door sports cars. They made a four-door electric vehicle

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and A, looks like a Porsche. B, looks really good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And C, is sporty and fast in a way that Ferrari claims they could not accomplish. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no, we couldn’t make this a sports car. Like, yeah, no, you totally could have. Porsche did it. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there. Like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} amazingly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fast.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just, it is. And granted, the Taycan has tiny back seats that are not comparable to this. and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get to who’s gonna buy this thing and why, right? Like, so I see maybe it didn’t fulfill the design brief, but if you’re wondering, can you do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this? Can a storied sports car brand make an EV

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and have it be four-door and have it be sporty and fast and desirable? Yes, they did it. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it just really burns me up that they decided to go the Johnny Ive direction with this is because Johnny Ive did not, I mean, granted,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that wasn’t the goal of this car, I think, but if you were Ferrari, like as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John many of the stories about this pointed out, The one time CEO of Ferrari said Ferrari will never make

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an SUV. Also said Ferrari will never make an EV. He is no longer the CEO of Ferrari.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The new CEO said, hell yes, we’re going to make both of those things. And so they are. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah, I think the exterior of this, it reminds me of Johnny Ive. It also reminds me Johnny Ive is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not a car designer. It’s not awful, but boy, could it be a lot better.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It’s not great. It’s really not great. Maybe not awful, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s towing the line of awful. It is really freaking bad. Yeah, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John MKBHD had a good slam on this, where he posted on threads, a Ferrari

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Luce review on autofocus coming soon, and the image he attached to it was a Nissan Leaf.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Because it looks kind of like the Ferrari, but the Nissan Leaf is kind of ugly. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s, I mean, I really think Ferrari is not gonna be happy with that post. That

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is not what you want to see. I mean, people have been doing the same thing showing showing the luce in profile next

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to a Prius which again I don’t think you have the scale right because the Prius is way smaller than this car but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah it doesn’t look like a Ferrari and people aren’t looking at it and going well it doesn’t look like a Ferrari but boy isn’t it sexy no they’re not saying that.

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Ferrari Luce, cont’d.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That being said, I really like what I’ve seen of the interior.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I feel like this is Johnny Ive doing the things that Johnny Ive should be doing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And interestingly, it’s a lot of tactile buttons. There’s a lot of physical

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey affordances, which I also love.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, we did remember Casey, we did talk about this on the show and we saw

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} a lot of physical

⏹️ ▶️ ^John buttons, but you can reiterate, but I just want to remind you of this is not something we didn’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, no, I know. And I mean, it was weird seeing it deconstructed in that San Francisco loft or whatever it was, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey seeing it all put together now, I think it looks really great. I think they’ve got a lot of smart, good touches. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey since we’ve already talked about it, I don’t have too much to add that we didn’t already say, but I think this looks really, really good and really,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey really smart and a good balance of touchscreen versus not maybe not perfect, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pretty darn good. I think I have no notes on this interior.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I think yeah, maybe there’s some minor things I have quibble with but I think what this shows is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I actually would really like a Johnny Ive interior You know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco mean, you know, please let somebody else do the software but like I would love like this actually looks really nice

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in a lot of ways and I I’m hoping you know, obviously this is this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is going to make some waves I don’t think this is gonna be a big deal, but I think it’s gonna make some waves in like the car

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco design world world, and it’s going to make people say, huh, and discount it or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But some people are going to say, hmm, maybe that’s a good idea. And some people are going to think it’s cool. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what I hope happens is that maybe this gets some other car

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco designers at some other companies to finally realize, hmm, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco physical controls can be cool again. Because right now, we’ve gone so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco far in the other direction, and we have all these like totally minimal

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all screens, everything’s on the touch screen vehicles, especially in the EV world. Every

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco time I have to go into a menu to change my fan speed, I’m just like, this is this is not the right

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco solution to this problem. Like I’m hoping that maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe this will just tilt the influence a little tiny bit back towards

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco more knobs and buttons for common controls because that is just better.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I talked to we talked about this whole interior on the past program that hopefully will be in the show notes. I don’t have anything

⏹️ ▶️ ^John particularly new to say about the specifics there. I’ll just reiterate a few things, which is that I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going with a rounded rectangle for the instrument cluster, the center screen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and both aspects of the central like armrest area is a little bit of Johnny Ive punting.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know you like rounded rectangles, dude, just like come on, there’s other shapes in the world. Seeing the rest of the design,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that connects those pieces that we saw disembodied. The rest of the design seems fine. I think the,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uh, I mean, this really emphasizes one of my complaints from the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John earlier episode about the interior in that, you know, really a big central iPad with a handle

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to point it. That’s your best idea for the middle thing. Now that you see where it, where it plugs into the dash

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the car, it just emphasizes even further because the physical

⏹️ ▶️ ^John switches for like the climate control and stuff. Setting aside that there are toggle switches that could probably stab people when they have little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John guards on them for safety reasons, but still not a great idea. It makes this whole point of like, look,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, if the passenger wants to use the screen, they can point it towards them and the driver wants, they can point it towards them. I don’t wanna be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fighting over the screen going back and forth. One way to solve this problem is to have the physical climate

⏹️ ▶️ ^John controls, which I give a thumbs up to, to have those physical climate controls in a fixed position in the center console

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the car that’s equally reachable by the driver and passenger. That’s what most other well-designed cards do, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John here they put it on the iPad, which means that if you’re yanking that iPad back and forth, the climate controls are going back and forth.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So if the driver is looking something on the screen or whatever, like navigation, because the instrument

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cluster doesn’t really have the same, it’s not all one screen. So if you have the big navigation screen, have the driver when it’s pointed towards

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them, but now the passenger wants to adjust the climate control. Maybe they want to point it back towards them. And now you’re fighting over the screen again, solve that problem,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John put them in a fixed position. They’re easier to find, they’re easier to reach. Just, they don’t need to be on the screen. But he

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was was so wedded with, oh, the screen’s going to have all the stuff like that. The steering wheel is for input and that central screen is for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John output, except for when it’s for input. But also there’s this weird lozenge cavity where you can put stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in the middle. It’s like this little cave where you do the phone charging and stuff. I just some aspects of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this same aspects of interior. I complained about before I continue to complain about the rest of it that I didn’t see, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the door and the interior and the top of the dash and stuff. That’s all reasonable. I don’t think the door pockets

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are that reasonable, but you know, it’s fine. I like that there’s a foot well gap underneath

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the center console in the rear seat, so the center rear seat passenger can fit their feet in there. I don’t like that that thing juts

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out so that the center rear seat person gets it into their shins. But you win some, you lose

⏹️ ▶️ ^John some. The main thing I think about when I see this interior, oh, I forgot the steering wheel that I also complained

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about that has a flat bottom. I was reminded of this

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} today.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} Oh, relax.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I was watching a review of the Chevy Bolt, the Chevy’s $30,000 EV. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re, you know, one of the cheapest EVs you can get, extremely inexpensive for an EV, a very small, inexpensive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car. And I was looking at the steering wheel, I’m like, oh man, Chevy, you didn’t, you didn’t. Yeah, they did.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s a, Chevy Bolt has a round steering wheel, except it’s very bottom. They’re like, you know what? It’s a little bit flat.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Just like, just flat enough so that you can, just flat enough to be annoying when the wheel slips through your hands. Like, why

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Chevy? But I believe Chevy, the Chevy, if you can’t put the zero to 60 in seven

⏹️ ▶️ ^John seconds, $30,000 EV, you can have a round steering wheel. Please, somebody. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} here’s the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey John, I promise, as someone with a flat bottom wheel, I am not saying that you shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey prefer a circle, but.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s all I’m saying. I’m not saying it’s terrible. I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} saying like, why? Like, why make it a little bit worse?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Why? I get it. It’s like, because race cars have it. Like, I understand the lineage, but it’s become an epidemic. People

⏹️ ▶️ ^John need to come back to round steering wheels. You’re not, especially in this car. It’s so vast inside, it’s ridiculous. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John here’s what I think this interior will do. And I could have said this before when we saw just the interior by itself, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John seeing it all together is to emphasize it further. I doubt there will be another

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car interior, including another car interior from Ferrari, that has the level

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of fit and finish that this interior has, simply because that’s what Johnny Ive does. And guess

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what? His budget was apparently 650 grand. Right? Like, we have to keep the car below

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a million. Go, Johnny. You will not see, like, even in Ferraris,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even a million dollar Ferraris, just hell, look at any of the existing Ferraris that are more expensive than this one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The switches don’t look as good. The switches don’t feel as good. The hardware is not like, this thing is made

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a Swiss watch because that’s what he wanted to do and he had the budget to do it and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you will not see that again. And this is not a lesson I think car makers will take from this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Look at a Rolls Royce or Bentley interior. They have nice interiors, but their switches are not as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John good as the switches in this car. Like, like nothing, like this is a level of fit and finish

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for interior mechanical stuff that no one else is going to do. They probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John shouldn’t do it. They probably can’t do it because who has the budget for this? Probably only Ferrari in a $650,000

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car. But this is an important moment in time to say, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John especially if they don’t contract with them to do like future versions of this car or whatever, watch Ferrari decontent this interior,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John man. Like watch them just go, okay, well, we don’t need the cutouts in the screen. We can get the switch a little bit cheaper from a different vendor.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That stupid glass shift knob, we don’t need that. The thing where the color goes out of the key and then we don’t need that. Like watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it get decontent. Decontenting on a 650 grand car, it will happen because no

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car maker wants to put this much money into the interior. And the only reason it happened here, this is a moment in time

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where a person with massive power was given the reins of a company with huge history and they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John said basically, make the car for us. Here’s the four wheels, the chassis and the battery,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everything else, you can more or less do what you want. He did and his company did it and some of the most talented

⏹️ ▶️ ^John designers ever to work in the world some of those talented designers from Apple made It

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an interior where the individual elements are amazing cohesively altogether. I don’t think it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Amazing car interior, but it’s sure better than a lot of other ones just like in broad strokes But in the individual

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the close-up, let’s zoom in on the switch and feel it Let’s see how like it’s it’s without equal. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t think I’ve seen it like again I don’t think I’ve seen a Rolls Royce or a Bentley that has switch gear that is as nice as this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The only question I have is, and I have this question about my Pro Display XDR stand as well.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Sometimes in a very expensive Apple hardware, like my literal $1,000 stand that is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John holding up this monitor, it has aluminum rubbing against aluminum as part of the mechanism.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I don’t think that feels or sounds good. It’s very precise. It’s very expensive. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John very smooth. There’s no play in it. You know, you push it and it stays where you want it to go,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it doesn’t feel that nice. It doesn’t feel, first of all, it’s not lubricated, which is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John part of it. It’s not like, you know, polished steel over polished steel with like oil between it or something.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It doesn’t feel like that. It feels a little scrapey. And I look

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at the air vents, which look very cool. Like you twist this solid, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} twist this machined

⏹️ ▶️ ^John aluminum thing and this machined aluminum air vent thing turns, which again, I think is not the best way

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to regulate airflow because it is not very granular, but it looks cool. And that mechanism,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as cool as it is, I see them using it, and I’m like, that sounds like my Pro Display XDR

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stand. And it’s not as pleasing as you would think of it. I might be wrong, because I haven’t touched this car, and I might just be imagining things,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but I think aluminum rubbing on aluminum is not that great, and Johnny apparently disagrees with me. But anyway, this interior

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is, you know, it’s probably singular. And it’s worth, like, if you ever encounter

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one of these, you should ask the citizen to play with the switches, because that is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} thing you will never

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be able to do in any other car. And that is probably its greatest strength. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m with Marco that I hope other people see this and say, hey, we should have physical controls in our

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car. But it’s not as if this is unknown. Every car maker for the past decade should know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah, people are rebelling against having only touchscreens but the countervailing force is, but it’s so much cheaper to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that and screw the users. That’s exactly it. Because that’s the reason why Tesla

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco started that way. and the reason why everyone copied them is because it is cheaper. What Tesla had

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to do when they started was figure out how to sell a very,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very expensive battery in a car that looked like it was as expensive

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as gas cars. They had to like match the price of this very expensive battery to the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco market of whatever car they could fit in, which meant they had to basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sell a $100,000 car that mostly had the parts of a $30,000 car. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so they had to find a lot of different ways to, you know, some might say cheap out, they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would probably say simplify or reinvent, but they had to do everything else about the car very,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very cheaply. And they did, and it worked. Well, look at the rest of the industry. Now everyone is like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco oh, the futuristic EVs, now that everything should be screens, everything’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on the touchscreen. Look how elegant and minimal and simple it is. Yeah, it’s also cheap.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco What tends to happen in like, you know, corporate America is whatever is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cheaper, they’ll find a way to sell it to you with marketing. So they sell

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it as minimal and futuristic and everything, but the reason is because it’s cheaper.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, and just to be clear, this interior is not cheap. It’s the opposite of cheap. Even their screens are ridiculously expensive because they punched

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all these holes in them and put these incredibly expensive little controls in it. Money is no object for this

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} interior.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, yeah. To your point before, Marco, about like, maybe people will see this and start using physical controls.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think the aspect where this helps move in that direction is because it’s is to the extent

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that this interior is well received by the automotive press

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and that this car and this car’s interior become known as cool,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because you can say all you want, like, oh, users are demanding that you have more physical controls and they’ll grudgingly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John kind of sort of to add them back. But if this car can help nudge physical controls

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in the direction of cool, that’s where it will help. I’m not sure it can. Maybe it can’t because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John A, no one will ever see this car and B, it’s not actually that cool looking on the inside, it looks kind of dorky. Oh, I forgot to mention on the outside. My real fear

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for this was that it would look like a lot of the fan renders of what the Apple car would look like. Like just like this big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sort of like Volkswagen bus lozage that you can’t tell if it goes forward or backwards and luckily it doesn’t look like that. So it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John could have been worse. But yeah, the inside still looks like, do I’m not a Ferrari. I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a, you know, it looks like a Fiat interior or a mini interior or something like that. Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it has such a strange character. So I’m not sure if this will advance the cool, but the fact that it isn’t a Ferrari maybe will. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John maybe people will imitate that a little bit more. Um, the, the late, the, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things that will link in here are there’s, they gave a bunch of, they give press

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a tour of the car stationary where they could just walk around and go in it and film stuff. Although, uh, MKBHD

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is a non-driving tour, which we’ll link to in the notes. He complained the whole time about the stupid camera

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on a gimbal they forced him to use. He wasn’t allowed to use his own equipment. And the stupid camera on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} gimbal had a mind of its own and kept looking at the wrong thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Love to see him be cranky about having to use their crappy tools. And what a dumb decision that was by Ferrari to not let

⏹️ ▶️ ^John him use his own equipment. Yeah, right. There’s also the Cleo Abram interview with Johnny Ive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and Ferrari’s chief designer, Flavio Manzoni. This was painful, and it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not Cleo’s fault. I don’t. I watched it after hearing you complain about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it, Casey. And I thought it was not as bad as you. I mean, Johnny Ive does occasionally go off into

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the mode where he is saying words that don’t mean anything, which is fine. That’s his thing, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} whatever. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John most Johnny Ive. But Flavio Manzoni was fun and a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ ^John spicy. The only thing I’ll fork Cleo. Cleo had lots of good questions. I’m not familiar with her work, but she

⏹️ ▶️ ^John had lots of good questions in this interview. She’s also not a car journalist, so kudos for her to doing such a good job.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John My only note to Cleo is maybe don’t include the parts where the people you’re interviewing say how wonderful you are. Just let your wonderfulness

⏹️ ▶️ ^John shine through. You don’t need to put the clips of them saying it in the video. You can just save them for yourself.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Now, I think the thing that bothered me is, and I don’t know if this is a design thing, I don’t know if this is an Apple design

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey thing, but the two of them, particularly Johnny were so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey high on their own supply. They were just, it was like watching them fart and go,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey ah, like it was just ridiculous how much they’re like, we’re changing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the world, not a direct quote, but we’re changing the world with this. It’s amazing. And it’s like, I get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that this is basically marketing. I get that they’re of course going to talk it up, but like, cheesy

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey peasy, keep your feet on the ground, fellas. My word. Like it’s a car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Johnny Ive has never had a foot on the ground.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I thought it wasn’t as bad in that regard as some of the other things I’ve seen from Johnny. For example, the open AI bar

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was worse than this. Oh, that was the pinnacle of bad. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} Golly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I thought Johnny was pretty constrained in what he said. And actually, I will

⏹️ ▶️ ^John link to the Cleo Abrams interview. It’s 45 minutes long, but it’s worth at least scrubbing the parts where they have the interview.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John One of my favorite parts was when Johnny gets into the car with Cleo, and they’re talking to each other about the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car. Johnny’s in the driver’s seat, which I thought was interesting. I feel like if you’re doing the interview, I guess

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you let him sit in the driver’s seat, but then you don’t get to play with the wheel. Anyway, here’s one of the things he said, and this will lead

⏹️ ▶️ ^John me into the next segment here, which is, uh, I forget what the question

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was. The question that was asked was, but Johnny’s response was for some reason,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just because the power source is electric, there is some assumption that the interface should be digital. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a huge leap. And I think it’s presumptuous. And this, that is 100% true. We talked

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about it many times in the show, when people are making an EV, when carmakers are making EV, especially when EVs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John were new, something goes off in their brain and says, well, this is an EV. It’s got to be futury and weird. And we can’t just do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John normal stuff because it’s an EV. And there’s some excuse for that in the early days because you have to get people excited

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about EVs and they damn well better look futury because why else is someone going to buy it? But we’re well past that point now. So Johnny

⏹️ ▶️ ^John highlights that point, which leads me to my EV stupidity checklist,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} I should formalize.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Incredible. I’m obviously cheating because I’m looking at our internal show notes. We’re not going to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey put all this listing in the external show notes, the ones that you all can see, But I am so excited for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this. This is incredible work.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, and this is the thing. Whenever EVs come up, every car review, this is not just like a thing that every car review

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will look at and note these things, but I don’t see enough people saying, hey, it’s no longer okay

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when car makers make an EV to just give them a pass on the stupid things that they do. Like it’s well past time

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to say, stop doing these things. They’re bad and stupid. And it gets, you know, it’s even worse if your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John car is $650,000 car, because then you kind of can’t use cost as your excuse. So here we go. Doors,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we know that on EVs, you gotta screw up the doors. They kind of

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} already did that. We talked about it with the rear hinge doors. Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that is one aspect of screwing it up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, the number one thing is like, when a guest approaches the door that you’re picking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco up somewhere, will they be able to figure out how to open it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yep, and so that’s the first item. Exterior door handles are readily accessible, yes or no.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And guess what? The Luce does an okay job.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think if someone came up to this car, they’d have a decent shot, especially in daylight, of finding where the handles are,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because they are centrally located, they have cut lines on them, so they’re obviously

⏹️ ▶️ ^John handles. As the many reviews point out, the way they’re designed, they may collect snow and ice,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it’s Johnny’s first car. Maybe he didn’t think about winter, seeing San Francisco, right? Maybe he didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think about snow and ice, but it does have handles that you can see with your eyeballs and that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are clearly, they have to be the only things that are handles, because like, where else would you do? So I think I’m giving him

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a thumbs up on that one. You did it, okay? Thumbs down, unfortunately, on physical door

⏹️ ▶️ ^John opening mechanism. Basically the question is, if I find the handle on the car and I pull

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on it, does it physically make the door open? That’s important for two

⏹️ ▶️ ^John reasons. One, software bugs should not cause you not to be able to get into your car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John How many people with EV owners, EV reviews say, for some period of time, I could not get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John into my car because even though I pressed the button or pulled the handle or whatever, all that handle does is activate a switch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that sends a signal where some software is supposed to unlock the door and it’s not doing it for some reason. Just this week, I was watching

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a review on a current EV that’s like, this company’s like ninth EV, I forget which one it was, it might’ve been a Volkswagen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or something. And they were saying at one point, they had to stop the review because they couldn’t open the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John driver’s side door. They had the key, they had everything, everything was fine, but when they pulled on the little thing that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John supposed to open the door, all it was doing is hitting a switch and that switch was not opening the door. If you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John make it 100% reliable, sure, go for it. But obviously we can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as a society make 100% reliable. So therefore I’m gonna say, make the door

⏹️ ▶️ ^John opening mechanism either entirely physical from the outside or it’s software,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but then if you pull farther on that very same handle, it’s physical. And the Luce

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fails on this, on the exterior and the interior because now we can see what the interior door handles look like and guess

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what they look like? A circular beautifully machined button that’s probably incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John satisfying to hit but is nevertheless a button. I don’t even know if there’s a physical way

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and for the both the interior and the exterior handles there is also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the safety aspect which is if you’re trapped in a car need to get out is there a physical way for you to get out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or if someone is trying to get you out of a car from the outside and your car is just crashed is there a physical handle that they can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John open? Again physical handles can get stuck to, like it’s not a guarantee. But there have been too

⏹️ ▶️ ^John many situations where someone is in an accident, and either they can’t get out or someone can’t get to them because of an electronic

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gremlin or malfunction or whatever, whereas physical door handles give you a more fighting chance. And it’s not because they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John inherently superior. It’s because we’ve been making physical door handles on cars for, what, 100 and something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John years? We’ve gotten really good at it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} We’ve just started making

⏹️ ▶️ ^John electronic handles for doors, and we suck at it. And so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not saying you can never do this, saying have a physical have it like the ones where it’s like it’s electronic.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But then if you keep pulling that exact same handle, it’s physical. Do that until you can get the electronics 100%. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all I’m saying. And speaking of the word affordance, which Casey uses correctly most of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the time, but occasionally not. I thought I would put a link to the definition of Wikipedia here. Use it in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this very episode. I think like three or four times every time you use it. I’m like, wow, I’m racking up your percentages. You got it right. I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one or two thirds of the time in this episode. Great. Yeah. Affordance, according to this Wikipedia

⏹️ ▶️ ^John definition is in design. Affordance refers to the possible actions that an actor can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John readily perceive. So Marco just hit the nail on the head when he said, when someone walks up

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to a car, the affordance is, can that person readily perceive that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they can open this door? In other words, do they see a handle? Does something say, oh, I know when I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John walk into this car, I have to pull on that to open this door. That is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a a readily perceived thing that lets you know what your possible actions are. This is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a door I can open one of the examples you always give in these design books is like Doors that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are like, you know push pull doors where the push side has a flat plate It’s like hey I know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I should push this door because it’s got a flat plate and saying shove the palm in your hand against this plate and You will push

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the other side of the door would have a pull handle where it’s like a little you know Hook shaped handle it’s saying this is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for pushing grab this handle and pull it but those are affordances because you look at them

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and you know what you can do with the door. And that’s why when you put someone puts a door in backwards and they have the push plate on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the pull side that it confuses people, that’s an affordance. This car has exterior affordances

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and its door handles. I think if you look on the outside and you see that little part with a little cut line, it’s clear that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it probably wants you to pull it. Interior, no affordance. You have to know where the button is. And-

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco This drives everyone nuts who’s in my car because just like the exterior,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you also have to figure out, how do I get out of this car? Which I think, from an emergency

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco perspective, should be even more obvious and not by a small amount.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That should be significantly regulated and required to have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a common, recognizable, fast mechanical mechanism to get out of a car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That’s incredibly important for safety.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And you wouldn’t think you need to legislate, because you’re like, well, we’ve been making door handles for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, again, a hundred years or more. Like we know how to do it. It’s a solved problem. And to that end, there was even

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a Saturday Night Live sketch where we’ll link in the show notes about this very, it was the angle on it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was like, you’re out for a night of fun and then you call an Uber to take you home and you can’t get out of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Uber. And the driver’s like, just push. And you’re like, oh no, that’s the window. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and part of the song lyrics is, this was a solved problem. Like, and it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because like, Oh, old people can’t figure out newfangled door handles. It’s like, there have been decades and decades

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and generations of generation of door handles. Every generation, one after the other, my generation, my parents’ generation, my

⏹️ ▶️ ^John grandparents’ generation, all of them, with all the cars they ever owned, figuring out how to get out of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the car using the handle has not been a problem. Like we solved it. We know how to, we know where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to put the handle. We know how to shape them so people know when they look at them, what they need to do to them. They’re mechanical,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they open the door. EVs come and everyone loses their minds and they’re like, nope, can we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hide a button somewhere? Guys, guys, this is a solved problem. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not adding to the wow factor of your car by having an electric door popper hidden in some place.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then this, I think in the backseat, this one has the thing where it’s like, well, I just said where it’s like a physical thing where you pull it up a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and it opens it and you keep pulling and it’s physical. But even that is well hidden in the interface. It should

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be way more obvious. There should be an affordance for opening a door. I don’t know why

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people are forgetting how to do this. So I’m going to give them a thumbs down on the interior where they totally screwed up by having a button

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the exterior I give them I don’t know some some sideways because they kind of sort of did I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Can’t tell if the exterior ones are physical at all I think they’re entirely electronic But I’m not entirely sure

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and I can just say like as an owner of a car with an interior button to open doors

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There is nothing more embarrassing than when I have to apologize for the design of my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco car to every new passenger who is ever in it as they struggle

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to figure out how to get out of my car because the design is stupid because they had to go

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and redesign door handles not only on the outside but also on the inside.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah and continuing on that vein the charge port. EVs obviously

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have a charge port and one thing they love to do is come up with the most ridiculous

⏹️ ▶️ ^John possible mechanism for revealing the charge port. Really complicated mechanisms where like the door

⏹️ ▶️ ^John goes in and slides up to a hidden cavity and comes down. It’s like, again, this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John problem has been solved. I know you have electrons and not gasoline, but in the end it is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a hole inside of your car where you stick a thing with a little door over it. We’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John solved that problem a million times over. Like, and this is the type of thing where like, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John had physical, like the thing that goes over the gas, what, you know, what do you call it? Gas port?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m so

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} instinctive. The gas hole. The gas

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hole. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I’ve had that get stuck on physical mechanisms. It’s not like physical

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mechanisms can’t get stuck. But we’ve had so many years to perfect the design

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of that mechanism that it’s pretty reliable and pretty cheap. But when an EV comes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out, they’re like, no, we can’t have that open physically. It has to be an electric mechanism. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think through the decades that we’ve had any kind of electrical mechanism in cars

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for some tiny little thing that used to use physically, but we’re gonna make it move by a motor, those things

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are more likely to fail. Now, we’ve gotten good at some of them. Electric windows and electric seats are close

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to as reliable as their physical counterparts. Not exactly, but close. But the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John charge ports that open electronically, especially the ones that have like a capacitive surface that they want you to swipe or something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the outside of the car, a lot of the ones have like run your finger along this little fin and it will open the charge

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ports like no stop don’t don’t like make it so you go push in the corner of it and it pops out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or Or make it a physical popper, like, I know it feels cheaper in your $650,000 car, but resist. Uh, Ferrari

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fails here, the Luce does not have a physical charge port door opening and closing mechanism, and it’s all electronic.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Boy, I hope that software never bugs out. And I hope that electronic motor and mechanism

⏹️ ▶️ ^John always works. And given the incredible craftsmanship in Ferrari’s, uh, car assembly process, I do not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have a lot of faith. Going to the interior,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the controls, turn signal stalks do not exist in this car. Another solved problem.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know lots of cars have the buttons for turn signals in the steering wheel. Some people even like it better,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but I’m going to take the bold, brave stance that stalks are in fact the best solution

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for signaling turns. I know there’s a debate about like, should it turn with the wheel versus should it be in a stationary

⏹️ ▶️ ^John position? It’s the same debate for the paddles, but the thing about stalks is not only always in the same position?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re huge and you can hit them in a million different places. Buttons are small

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and much smaller targets and you can’t like you can’t just like whack them with your fingertips or throw

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your hand up like stocks man. The turn signal stock is an amazing design from an ergonomic perspective.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Any car that abandons them is either going for the F1 race fantasy, which I guess kind of this is what they’re going for because Formula 1

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cars and other race cars have an increasing amount of controls on the steering wheel because you’re because you’re a race car

⏹️ ▶️ ^John driver and you can’t take your hands off the wheel, but man, turn signal stalks, they are better than buttons on the steering

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wheel. And also EVs, when they do have buttons on the steering wheel, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all capacitive. Then we can make just one clean sheet of plastic

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} and everything

⏹️ ▶️ ^John could be capacitive and haptic.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thumbs up to the Ferrari here, because guess what? John Adams is like, no, every one of these buttons is gonna cost as much as a Volkswagen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I’m putting a thousand

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John steering wheel. All right, so physical buttons, all of that steering wheel. Good job, Johnny.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Climate controls, physical controls for temperature and fan speed. Car manufacturers refuse

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to do this now that they’ve tasted the sweet, sweet honey of touchscreens for everything.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re like, no, they’re always in the same place. We just leave them on the screen all the time. It’s like, that’s not a physical button,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John dude. But the Luce, physical controls for temperature and fan speed, granted they’re dumb

⏹️ ▶️ ^John toggle switches that are poking out of the screen, waiting to stab you, but they are physical. And another

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one that Luce gets right, direct physical control for airflow and direction. If you want the air to blow

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to a different place in your car, can you reach out to the air vent and point it where you want? Or do you have to go through the touchscreen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and look at a 3D model of your car and drag your finger on it? One of those things you can do while you’re driving without taking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your eyes off the road. The other one you cannot and is stupid. Luce gets this right, every one of its air vents,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you grab it with your hand and you point it where you want it to go and you twist it to change the airflow. Good job, Johnny.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Glove box. I can’t believe I have to say this. Can you open the glove box without using the touchscreen?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know people who are on car people like, what are you talking about? You have to use the touchscreen to open the glove box? How dumb is that? I agree.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So many cars do this. Tesla did it first, I think. Like so many of these things. And everyone’s like, yeah, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John glove box should have no way to open it except through the touchscreen. That’s a great idea. It’s not.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Don’t do that. Luce, you can open the glove box without using the touchscreen.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I had to put a thumbs down in this category for them though, because I think the way you open the glove box

⏹️ ▶️ ^John without using a touchscreen is by pressing a button that fires an electronic actuator. Most likely. You don’t need to do that,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Johnny. Just design a really cool opening mechanism, like a physical opening mechanism.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, but then you have to have like a locking mechanism too. That’s why they do it, I think it’s for the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} locking.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, no, remember the glove boxes used to have a key lock on it? Like you can do physical locking things too.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, but does this car even have a key? Yeah, they used to have actual keys.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Well, no, it doesn’t have like a jiggy-jaggy piece of metal. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} believe. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m saying old cars used to have that. But anyway, if you want to make the glove box lockable, then you just have an electronic

⏹️ ▶️ ^John locking mechanism that can lock it. But in the common case, it probably should be open and it should have a physical switch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The rear view, does the rear view mirror exist? Again, you would think this is not a question you’d have to ask,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it does. The Luce has a rear view mirror. All

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} right. Thumbs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John up. What do other EVs have? They say, well, this is an EV. We don’t have a rear view mirror. You know what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we have? We have a screen in the place where the rear view mirror should be. And you can use that instead.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Some

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} cars

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going as far as to have this as the next item, does the rear window exist? And Volvo’s like, we don’t need a rear

⏹️ ▶️ ^John window. We’ve got a camera out the back and where the rear view mirror is, we’ve got a screen.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So why do we even need that back window? And so they just cover it up in the, what is that one? There’s the EX40 or something.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t, I know what you’re talking about. I don’t remember which

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} one it is.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John One of the current Volvos, or maybe it’s a Polestar. I forget which one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s a Polestar, again, not a hundred percent

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} sure. Maybe it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Polestar 4. Anyway, no rear window, but the Luce has a rear view mirror

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and it has a rear window. And actually a reasonably sized rear window for a Ferrari.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So, I mean, sometimes you can’t have it cause it’s like there’s the engine behind you and you’re a low slung car or whatever, but they have both of those things

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with thumbs up. And by the way, the reason why screens with current screen technology will never

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be as good as a rear view mirror is because when you’re driving and you’re focusing on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the cars out in front of you and you glance in your mirror to focus at the cars behind you, a mirror

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will allow you to have your focal distance that is like 50, you know, 20 yards away. You’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be able to maintain that 20 yards in front of me. And then when I look in the mirror, because it is a mirror reflecting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John light rays and not a screen, I don’t have to focus on the distance from my eyeball to the mirror

⏹️ ▶️ ^John screen. Because if it was a screen, it would be like, okay, my eyes have to go from 20 yards to three feet, 20 yards to three

⏹️ ▶️ ^John feet. But because it’s an actual mirror, I can say 20 yards in front, and then I can look in the mirror

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and focus on 20 yards behind me because of the way mirrors work with light and the way screens

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do not work. So yes, rear view mirrors are superior to screens. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on that same category, side view mirrors exist. Luce’s got them. It’s got

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mirrors on the side of the car. And again, you may be asking, doesn’t every car have that?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Not if you’re an

⏹️ ▶️ ^John EV, because if you’re an EV, you’re like, mirrors are so passe and in fact, they impede the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John airflow. Let’s have tiny pinhole size cameras that we use and then we’ll put screens

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the interior just inside the interior where the side view mirrors would be.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s illegal in the US, so the US models don’t get that. But everywhere it’s legal, they’re like, oh yeah, the US models will get the mirrors,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but everywhere else gets this stupid thing. Luce didn’t do that. They have actual side view mirrors. Although

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I have to give Volvo some extra negative bonus points because I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s one of their recent models. They decided that the side view mirrors, rather

⏹️ ▶️ ^John than having the mirror change angle inside its little thingy, you know, as you adjust the mirror so you can see where you want.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They make the entire little pod thing. Oh, gross. Rotate, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the mirror is fixed in a little pod. And then when you adjust the mirror, the whole little pod

⏹️ ▶️ ^John moves. And I’m like, Volvo, the whole point in having the mirror move and not the exterior is so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can wind tunnel test your little stationary pods and make them optimal. And then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people can adjust the mirrors within that fixed thing. By moving the little pod, you’re changing the aerodynamics

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the car based on the height of the driver. I don’t know what people are doing, but anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Luce has side view mirrors, so thumbs up. And then I have a bonus checklist just for Johnny Ive.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John One, which- Incredible.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} One, which we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John knew this because we saw the interior, but does the car have cup holders? And I feared a Johnny Ive car,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John he’d be like, you shouldn’t be drinking in your car. You shouldn’t have cup holders. But this car does indeed have cup holders. In fact,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it has machined aluminum $10,000 cup holders, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John does have cup holders. So good job, Johnny. I know it was tough for you. I bet you probably said, what if the car didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have cup holders? But someone said, no, we need cup holders. Two, adjustable headrests.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This is the adjustable monitor stand of cars. The Luce does not have adjustable headrest height.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I guess it just assumes everyone’s the same height. A lot of Ferraris and a lot of sports cars, when you get the sport seats, they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t have an adjustable headrest height. It’s just a one-piece seat for, you know, for a lightweight or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And as far as I can tell, The only seat option in the Luce has a non-adjustable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John headrest. I couldn’t tell if the little cushion slides up and down, but I don’t think it does. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as someone who is taller and who has a wife who is shorter, I can tell you the adjustable headrests

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are really important for safety because if my wife adjusts the headrest for her, and then I get into the car,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if I get hit from behind, that headrest is going to snap my neck because it’s going to meet like the middle of my neck

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and not actually stop my head from going back. And the same thing with me, if I put the headrest where I needed to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John go, her head’s gonna miss the headrest entirely and like hit the metal poles that are holding it up. So adjustable headrests

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is an important safety consideration but just like Apple monitors don’t have adjustable height stands, this car

⏹️ ▶️ ^John does not have adjustable headrests. And then finally, I don’t know that these are called but you know on the little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John grab handles over the rear doors, they’re usually this chintzy little plastic handles that are, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know, that flap down. I mean, you let go of them, they flap back up into the roof. They’ve been on cars for my entire life.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The ones on the Luce are obviously machined aluminum tubes that are again probably horrendously expensive,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John incredibly strong, you could probably hang children off of them. They’re amazing looking, but one thing they don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is that little tiny hook where you hang your dry cleaning.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Ah, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} yeah, yeah. Probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because Johnny thought, I’ve got these beautiful aluminum tubes, why would I mess them up with a little hook? I’ll tell you why, Johnny. When

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you get your dry cleaning, where the hell are you gonna hang it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, I just hang it from the handle because here’s the thing, I never get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one shirt dry cleaned. I always wait until there’s like a whole bag of shirts that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco waiting to go to the cleaners for three months, then I bring them all there at once. And so I’m always coming out of the cleaners

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with like 12 shirts. So they never fit on those dumb little hooks anyway. So I always

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just hang them off the whole handle.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Almost every car has them. And you can’t hang them off the bar thingy because then you have to like twist the hanger. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it is perpendicular to the direction of the clothes. You know what I mean?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It doesn’t matter. It’s a risk I’m willing to take.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah. It’s probably not a big deal. And honestly, when you hang clothes there, it really reduces the visibility in your car. You should probably lay

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them flat in your trunk. But it’s interesting that he decided, again, for purity of design.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know every car has these, but I don’t like it. Look at these beautiful aluminum tubes. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John overall, a pretty good score on the interior. Like I said, this is probably the most expensive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John feeling, most carefully designed car interior that will literally ever exist. And not to say that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it is the best, because I have lots of complaints about it, but I believe it is an amazing moment

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in time when someone with very particular tastes and tremendous skills was given an unlimited

⏹️ ▶️ ^John budget to do what they wanted with the car interior. And then they came up with this not a great car interior, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the micro level aspects of this will probably never be equaled.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I mean, again, I really, really like the interior. It is not flawless, but I like it a lot from what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I can tell. The exterior though, whoa.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, and I forgot to mention though, why does this car exist? Who’s gonna buy it? Setting aside

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Ferrari’s strategy of like, we’re gonna let someone else design this car And it does not look like any of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John our Ferraris. Like it’s clear that’s what they wanted to do and that’s what they got. But what’s gonna happen with this car, I would imagine,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at least what they hope is going to happen is as their lead designer pointed out in a couple of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the interviews, you know, what is Porsche’s best-selling car? It’s not the 911, I can tell you that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s their SUV. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} SUV is as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John soon as Porsche decided to make an SUV, that became their best-selling car. Not by a little bit, not like it sells a little bit more than like the 911.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like they are basically an SUV company that also sells the 911 on the side, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The Paris-Sanguet, the Ferrari SUV, it’s Ferrari’s best-selling car. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even Ferrari is not immune to what everybody wants, and what everybody wants is not a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John two-seat sports car. Even at this price class, where you would think it doesn’t matter for these people, they’re paying half a million dollars for a car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Surely they’re not gonna want an SUV. Nope, they do. They want a Ferrari SUV, and that’s what they buy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And so this car is for the people, most people who buy Ferraris, they have a stat of like, who buys Ferraris? It’s people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who already own Ferraris, to the extent that sometimes, In fact, frequently, Ferrari will not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John let you buy one of their cars unless you have bought several of their cars previously. So if you want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like an F80, you can’t just go and buy an F80. They’ll be like, what other Ferraris have you bought from us? We’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John see if we’re gonna let you buy this car for two million dollars or whatever the hell the F80 costs. I forget.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So this car, say you own a bunch of Ferraris, but you’re not gonna, you can’t take your like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John SF90 to go get groceries or whatever. It’s just like, it’s not convenient. There’s not a lot of luggage space.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What if you want to go on a trip? What if you want to take people with you? What if you just want a driving around town car, but you’re also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John horrendously wealthy? You probably want something that’s kind of like an SUV and EVs are great

⏹️ ▶️ ^John too. This is that car. If you just wanted a normal car,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but all your other cars are

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Ferraris

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and you don’t want to get a Mercedes or a BMW or whatever, Ferrari now has something for you to buy. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think fulfilling that purpose, it fits people well. Three adults can go in the backseat

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and not feel cramped. I’m sure it drives nicely and smoothly, and it is much more comfortable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and convenient than any other Ferrari, including their, their, you know, the Pura Sangue, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John internal combustion SUV. And the interior is gonna look impressive to rich people, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it is, right? And that’s who I think who’s gonna buy this car, people who want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a four-door EV, but also are the type of person who owns Ferraris. So here

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you go. And the fact that it doesn’t look like any of their sporty cars, probably won’t be too much of a hindrance as long as they don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s ugly because you’re just looking for a car to like take your friends to the movies or Go

⏹️ ▶️ ^John run an errand or something and honestly if you get this into color other than red this will probably blend in with the rest

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of like the Teslas and other stuff that’s on the road It certainly won’t stand out as much as like a taekwondo because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that looks like a sporty porsche because it is So that’s that’s what I think this car is for Hey,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you want a normal car ferrari has one of those now We’ll see if it becomes their best-selling model or it and the paris sangui

⏹️ ▶️ ^John together become the best-selling model So we’ll see how this goes. Again, 650 grand is much more expensive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John than the Pera-Sangue. This is the top of Ferrari’s price range. But I think they felt like we need

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to have a car in this category, because you just can’t drive a screaming, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was going to say 12-cylinder, but they only make one of those these days, a screaming flat plane crank

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Ferrari internal combustion engine car every single day. Sometimes you just want to go to the store. This is the car

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for you if you have a spare 650 grand.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco All right, thank you to our sponsors this episode, Squarespace and Zocdoc.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And thanks to our members who support us directly, you can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco many perks of membership is ATP overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on overtime, we’re gonna be talking about Bamboo. This is the 3D printing company, Bamboo’s battle

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with its community. There’s a lot going on there and we’re gonna talk about that in overtime. You can join to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco listen atp.fm slash join. Thanks everybody, and we’ll talk to you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Cause it was accidental, oh it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey accidental John

⏹️ ▶️ ^John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John accidental, oh it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was accidental And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ ^John notes at atp.fm And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Mastodon, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that’s Casey Liss

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, Auntie Marco Armin

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Syracuse It’s accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they didn’t mean

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to Accidental Check podcast So long

RIP, Destiny 2

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco John, I’m so sorry for your loss.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Same. We are both very, very sorry. Marco can insert taps here.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey We will play taps as you are telling us about what’s going on in your video game life.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah. I mentioned this at Rectifs where I also talked about this the past couple of episodes of Rectifs.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’ve been talking about playing the game Marathon from the game developer Bungie and having feelings about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it. And I was like, guess what? Sorry, sorry, Marilyn. We’re going to be talking about video games again. I don’t know. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not intentionally turning this into a video game podcast, but like it just so happens that Things in my

⏹️ ▶️ ^John life related to video games a lot of stuff has been happening lately And this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John most recent one Can’t say I didn’t see it coming, but it’s still I Think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the whole community’s in shock. Okay, so There is a video game franchise called destiny that came

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out in 2014 that I have been playing since 2014 So I’ve been playing this game for almost 12

⏹️ ▶️ ^John years, basically continuously.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} And if you were wondering… For

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey perspective, for perspective, Declan was born in October of 2014. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you’re wondering, how can you play one game for 12 years, don’t you get bored of it? As I tried to explain to Merlin in our episode

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and maybe failed, it is what’s called a live service game where, yeah, you buy the game, but then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they just keep putting out new content for it. And they have a way for you to pay for that. Whether it’s like a subscription, like World

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of Warcraft or like Destiny, where you buy expansions or annual passes or whatever. but the point is it is like a living

⏹️ ▶️ ^John game.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, like Minecraft has been around for like a thousand years, but they, you know, like, but the version of Minecraft that they have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco today is so much more deluxe and there’s been so much stuff added to it compared to where

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it was, you know, 15 years ago.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, and it’s a little bit easier for like sandbox games like Minecraft, where it’s like, you know, you can play with Legos

⏹️ ▶️ ^John forever because you can build infinite things and that’s what Minecraft is like, but this is more like a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bit more narrative multiplayer, also player versus player and there’s a story and stuff. So it does

⏹️ ▶️ ^John require like significant creative content and effort to put out for people to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John play. And it’s had a bumpy history. Destiny 1, when it came out, it was not a critical

⏹️ ▶️ ^John darling. It got middling reviews, had some struggles,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so much so that they came out with Destiny 2 in 2017. So it’s only three

⏹️ ▶️ ^John years after the game came out. Destiny 2 has continued to this day,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where it’s like, well, are they ever gonna do a Destiny 3? Originally, the plan was to do a bunch of sequels and stuff, but they basically said Destiny 1. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John always got some troubles. We do some cool stuff now. Destiny 2. Destiny 2 also had troubles out of the gate, but they just stuck

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with it. In fact, at one point, one of the rumors is they wanted to call it Destiny Infinity, which would have been a marathon thing to do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or a bungee thing to do because they did come out with the game called Marathon Infinity to signal the end of the original marathon

⏹️ ▶️ ^John franchise. Anyway, the health of Destiny has been a roller coaster

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the whole 12 years that I’ve been playing it. At various times fans have been

⏹️ ▶️ ^John excited and elated, also disappointed. They’ve made changes to the game that people didn’t like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and then they responded to feedback and like half of playing Destiny, half of the experience of being

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a Destiny player and Destiny fan is the back and forth with the game developer and the game changing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The game has changed so much. It’s changed, to Marco’s point, it has changed much more than Minecraft has.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Significantly more than Minecraft has. If you were to look at the original version of Destiny 2

⏹️ ▶️ ^John versus Destiny 2 today, you would think are these two different games like fantastically different. So much

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stuff changed in between there. And riding that roller coaster has been part of the experience.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The analogy I use with Merlin, I think, is a good one is it’s kind of like the MCU, the Marvel

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Cinematic Universe, where Destiny one is like Iron Man. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when they came out with Destiny one, like this is from Bungie, the developer of Halo. So, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s what people know it from. But I know it as an old school Mac user from their other games, including the original marathon.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I said, this is going to be our next franchise. We’re going to make this franchise called Destiny. And it was like, it was a big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John deal because Halo was a big deal then. That’s what everybody knew them from. Like, oh, the people made Halo are making

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a new game that’s called Destiny. OK. And I forget if this was announced or just strongly implied,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or maybe it was just read from the business agreements because they made agreements that had this timeline in it. But the whole

⏹️ ▶️ ^John idea was we’re going to put out a game called Destiny and this is going to be a 10 year game.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We’re going to be developing this game for 10 years, this franchise for 10 years.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think Activision probably thought it was more like Call of Duty, like we’re going to keep making Call of Duty games for 15 years. We’re just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going to keep making them. Whereas Bungie was kind of like, we’re going to make one game called Destiny and just have it be a live service

⏹️ ▶️ ^John game for 10 years. Like World of Warcraft is what, been 20 something years, whatever it is. That was their plan.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And they had a story in mind. The story got rebooted right before the release of the first game. So it was kind of a mess.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The story continued to be a mess for many years, but eventually somewhere in the middle of that decade, they coalesced about,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, this is the light and dark saga and destiny. This is the big story we’re telling and every expansion we put

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out and everything players do, we’re progressing that story. And eventually we got to,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John um, Avengers infinity war and Avengers end game

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} where essentially

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} the story

⏹️ ▶️ ^John came to a close. Like the story of the MCU was like, you know, Thanos, the infinity stones,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the Avengers, right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} You

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know, in between the middle there was that there was the first Avengers movie was like, Now we’re bringing everyone together. I can’t believe we made it to this point. We made

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it guys, Avengers. But was that at the end? No, because it’s like, there’s still Thanos and there’s still the Infinity Stones and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ups and downs and there’s good movies and bad. And there’s Thor, the Dark World and Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and up and down and all over, right? But eventually they get to Infinity War and Endgame.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And when they get to Endgame, spoiler alert, they fight Thanos, that whole thing is resolved,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John okay? And then the MCU is like, well, but we want to keep making these movies.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Everybody’s gone. All their contracts are up. A lot of our characters are dead or you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know, are old or whatever. Like the story’s over, right? It’s like, no, no, the money machine has to keep

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going. So destiny did that. It had its Avengers end game moment. It was an expansion called the final shape.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We all fought the big bad and defeated him. End of the 10 year saga of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John destiny, which at that point was like 11 years, but they wanted to keep making destiny.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So they came So they came out with new expansions. And the thing is, they could never really get everyone to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sort of come back and say, wait, no, it’s not over. Come back, Destiny, there’s still, we’re still, the game

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is still going. It’s like, we all just spent over a decade of our life on the light

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and darkness saga that is now resolved. And I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s just seems like, like the game is cool. Like some aspects of the game are better than they’ve ever been before. They even had a Star

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Wars expansion, which is hard to explain to people. It’s not like they put Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader into the game.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Luke

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Vader. Can you imagine if Marco or I said that? We would be

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ridiculed for years. Quickly corrected myself. But they did put lightsabers in the game. And they did put lots of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with Star Wars flavor in the game. Very weird. This is officially licensed, by the way, with like Lucasfilm and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not like they did this as an homage. This is a 100% official thing that they paid for. There was even a Star

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Wars expansion. And it was cool. And I played it. But even that couldn’t save the franchise.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The number of players playing Destiny just kept going down and down and you kind of need players to be playing this because one of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the ways they make money is by selling cosmetics in the game selling things to change how things look in the game for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John real money and you also need players to want to buy the next expansion which is the other way they make money which is every once

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in a while they come up with a new annual pass or a new expansion or whatever and if you look at the graphs that we have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from like Steam or whatever of Destiny’s player base it’s been going down since 2014 honestly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that was near its peak like in 20 maybe 2014 2015 or somewhere I don’t know what the graph

⏹️ ▶️ ^John looks like, but it’s been going down for a long time. And it just got to the point where it was going down so much that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they just couldn’t sustain the game anymore. Bungie itself used to be part of Microsoft, used to be independent,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John then Microsoft bought them, then they spun out of Microsoft, then Activision, they were working with Activision on Bungie

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stuff, and then Sony bought them a couple years ago. They were independent again in between there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Anyway, point is Sony owns them now. Sony bought them for, I don’t know, like $4 billion or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a couple years ago. And Sony wants to see Destiny make money. And Destiny wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John doing that. And so they’ve pulled the plug. They made an announcement on May 21st

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that the expansion that we were all waiting for in June for Destiny that had already been delayed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a month, that will be the last one. That’s the last expansion for Destiny.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John After that, there will be no more Destiny. No more Destiny 2, no more Destiny period.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They said they’ll keep the game running. And as they noted, you can play Destiny 1 today. a game that was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John launched in 2014 and ended in 2017, you can play it right now. They’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John kept the servers running because you need the servers running for this game. Like it has, you know, you can’t play without servers

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because again, it’s a live service game that still exists today. So there is some hope that destiny two will be playable,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, seven years from now we’ll see. But the point is no more content for destiny. Destiny

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is over. Um, I personally, even though I have been playing it basically continuously

⏹️ ▶️ ^John since 2014 most recently after I did the Star Wars expansion and had done everything I wanted to do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I played Ark Raiders Then I played marathon which is also from Bungie, which I’ve really been enjoying So I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John really been playing destiny in the past several months I’ve checked in a few times to do one or two things, but I’ve just been

⏹️ ▶️ ^John waiting for the June expansion to come But now I know that the June expansion is literally the last one They basically dumped everything because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they had planned a whole bunch of other expansions throughout the year that they had announced and basically it’s like pencils down down.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Whatever you have finished for the expansions that were supposed to come out over the next year, that’s all going into the June

⏹️ ▶️ ^John expansion. So it’s got a lot of cool stuff in it, including the return of SRL Sparrow Racing League, where you take

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the in game vehicles and race them. It’s a something that’s feature they had many, many years ago that people enjoyed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s coming back. So I think they’ll probably leave destiny to in a pretty good place, other than the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the special ammo economy and crucible is screwed over again, just like at the end of Destiny one. I know that’s all.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m suddenly code switching and talking to Destiny fans. It annoys me that both times they’ve ended Destiny games, they mess

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with the special ammo economy and it’s going to be stuck that way forever. So that kind of annoys me. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Destiny is over. All good things must come to an end. We talked about this with Tebow. It’s been such a big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John part of my life for all these years. But honestly, after Avengers Endgame, I felt like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you did it like people love that the final expansion, the final shape, it finished

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the story in a satisfying way. Just like people love the at the Avengers Endgame movie and all that stuff. Like, yes, we were all on this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ride together with all our friends and we all, we did all the things. And now

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s over. So I’m sad. There’s been an outpouring of people who are sad about it. A lot of the outpouring

⏹️ ▶️ ^John has been from people who by their own admission have not played Destiny in years, but they’re like, I just assumed it would always be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there. And they have such fond memories of it. Penny Arcade, the comic, did a wordless

⏹️ ▶️ ^John three panel comic just as a tribute to Destiny. They haven’t played Destiny in years, but like, man. Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John now it’s kind of like after someone dies, you find out how much, really how, how people really felt about it. And what people are coming out and saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is boy, destiny, one of the best games of all time. Like I can’t think of many other games.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like you can think of, I think I already mentioned them world of Warcraft, maybe call of duty, although,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and maybe like grand theft auto, like franchises that have just been, been there for so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John many years. And only I think world of Warcraft is directly comparable to destiny too, because it’s been like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the same game, which just with new content, which again, World of Warcraft has changed tremendously from the first version of that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John game till now, but it’s kind of one continuous thing. And so, yeah, everyone’s out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John here. Sad, the Destiny’s gone. People were hoping someday there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John might be a Destiny 3. That is if Bungie even continues to exist, because if Marathon doesn’t do well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John maybe Bungie’s just gone entirely, which would be a sad end to an amazing company. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John still, if you, you know, put up in the Hall of Fame the things that Bungie

⏹️ ▶️ ^John has accomplished, original marathon series, Path of Existence into Darkness, Myth, Oni. These are things

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that only have meaning to old school Mac users. Then the whole Halo series, that’s where the whole world knows them from.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Just to have something like Halo in a game developer’s you know repertoire is amazing. And then Destiny after that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And Marathon is also an amazing game, it’s just I’m not sure it’s going to save the company because it’s much more narrow interest. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we’ll see where this goes. It could be that Bungie itself disappears and Sony just cans everything and destroys the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whole studio, which would be really sad. But But maybe, you know, in seven years time, I’ll be checking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out Destiny 3. But in the meantime, I just want to salute Destiny. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^John most clearly the most and probably the most important video game in my life. Clearly the game that I have played

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the most. And to that end, I looked up my stats. I have played the Destiny franchise. That’s Destiny 1

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and Destiny 2 for 2210 hours. Gracious. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Which is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. The number one player on Destiny has played for about 43,000 hours.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And it goes down from there to like 40, 42, 999 for like this, you know, people play this game a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m sure that’s nothing compared to the world of warcraft people, but just to give an example, the legend of Zelda franchise, which I love.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If I play a Zelda game and I 100% it, I do everything in the game. That’s like one or 200 hours for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a single Zelda game. But I’ve played 2200 hours of Destiny. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m going to play more with the June expansion comes out. I’ll play it. But yeah, this is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a chapter of my life ending, even though kind of like TiVo, like I had already ended it myself by essentially

⏹️ ▶️ ^John barely using TiVo and mostly using streaming. I’m barely playing Destiny, mostly playing Arc Raiders and then Marathon.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So I feel like it’s, you know, whatever, to every season, turn, turn, whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} whatever the song, however the song goes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yep, nailed it. Yep, it’s bittersweet, but like that’s life.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Things come and go, and I just, I’m thankful that Destiny existed because it really was a special game

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to me and a lot of other people. I’m sad to see it go. A lot of it is at the foot of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mismanagement by people who are just interested in their next exit or selling to somebody or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I’m mad at those people, but to sustain this amount of creative output

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the amount of money behind it, it’s unprecedented. Again, the other comparison I was given, obviously the MCU,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which like improbable. When Iron Man came out, if you imagine, it’s amazing they even made it to Avengers.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John let alone that they already made it to Avengers Endgame. Like just making it to Avengers, we made these movies, which we didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even know if they were gonna do any good. And then we finally get to the Avengers movie, we get to bring them together, and that’s not even the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John end and we keep going. It’s amazing they did that. And the Lord of the Rings movies, where they pulled a bunch of people to New Zealand for a couple of years and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John made three movies all at once. It’s amazing that happened. It may never happen again. Destiny is like that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Someday, if and when World of Warcraft ends, it’s gonna be even bigger outpouring, but. Oh yeah. For

⏹️ ▶️ ^John me, Destiny was that type of game, so. RIP D2,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’re a real one.