Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

510: It's Occupied by Bears

Mastodon, date formats, testing, and what we’re thankful for.

Episode Description:

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  1. Test Completed 🖼️
  2. Sponsor: Backblaze
  3. Network Locations in Ventura
  4. M/D/Y vs. D/M/Y vs. Y/M/D
  5. Sponsor: Memberful
  6. man pages in Preview
  7. iPhone case follow-up
  8. Mastodon
  9. Quick Twitter updates
  10. Sponsor: Kolide
  11. #askatp: Apps on smart TVs
  12. #askatp: Use “public” Xfinity Wi-Fi?
  13. #askatp: Will data storage run out?
  14. Ending theme
  15. Thanks

Test Completed

Chapter Test Completed image.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so i have something to show the two of you oh this is always ominous to check our slack

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh my god i’m so happy i’m so happy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so i’m looking at i’m looking at a screen shot a very very small very heavily cropped screenshot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from ex code on the right hand side it’s a bunch of green diamonds that have check

⏹️ ▶️ Casey marks in them and on the left test value conversions a function test open db

⏹️ ▶️ Casey function test queries function test heavy workload function et cetera et cetera oh my god i’m so proud of you

⏹️ ▶️ John now i don’t know anything really about writing tests and ex code but that makes

⏹️ ▶️ John two of us are they supposed to all begin with the word test i think they have to i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey remember if it’s required or not but it is certainly the convention it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly makes your life easier if they do because the um you get like wonderful you e integration

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you can let just click and run one of them and stuff like that you get little green check mark is fun

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh this is extremely exciting so so this is the fc model replacement that that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does not have a name or does have a name oh it does okay are we sharing that name or no not yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t really matter and that’s why it’s butt deb i’m gonna a butt dev well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i feel like i don’t like when components that i have to write just have really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco generic names like model or database this is kind of the convention now with swift

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or with swift you eye where you’ll have some i just called like view

⏹️ ▶️ Marco list and i find it it’s very difficult to search for that both in your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John code and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like you know if you’re searching for stackoverflow answers on how to do something or you know whatever i prefer having names

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are not just generic words that actually mean something whether it’s whether they’re prefixed like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fc model or whether it’s like some kind of other unique name like it’s like something we’re like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can easily search for it in your own code or on google or whatever and you can find answers so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so i’m not going to like there’s like there’s a bunch of sequel light wrappers for swift they’re just called things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sequel light it’s like well that’s going to be hard

⏹️ ▶️ John to search for in my in my ap you know cause switch class is a

⏹️ ▶️ John application switcher and i have a class that represents an application and i call the class a and the only reason

⏹️ ▶️ John i get away with that is because all of apple’s classes have n s you know it’s it’s ns

⏹️ ▶️ John application or nsp or whatever right so i get to use that because of like the legacy of objectives

⏹️ ▶️ John and the way the name spacing worked there but i’m reminded of a one of the accidental

⏹️ ▶️ John ah but we trap bear trap accidental pitfalls that lies lurking in

⏹️ ▶️ John the pro programming language i know everyone is saying yeah among the many if you’re if

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re writing like a little test thing where you’re like i just want to try something out and you just make up

⏹️ ▶️ John class names or if you call your classes foo and bar and whatever you’re fine but if you have

⏹️ ▶️ John the misfortune to decide young man name a class a b c and d you know what i mean

⏹️ ▶️ John ah there already is a b class and it’s kind of important to the way perl works

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and fine why why

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is it

⏹️ ▶️ John this working right and what is it doing because of course pearl will let you put whatever you want into the name space but guess

⏹️ ▶️ John what the b name space is occupied and is occupied by bears he does not stand

⏹️ ▶️ John for bears too bad i

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t even know enough about how swift name spacing works to know how they get away with this i’m assuming like all the nature scope to the

⏹️ ▶️ John module or some crap like that but i just go with the swift convention they’re going to call their things in swift ye

⏹️ ▶️ John view and stuff like that well i’m calling my thing a deal with it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so there’s a possibility since this is the week of thanksgiving here in america

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s a possibility that that the show will be presented to unwilling and uninterested family

⏹️ ▶️ Casey members and so i think we should try to keep the contents stuff that i think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyone could at least understand if not appreciate so with that in mind tell me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more about these unittests are you excited to group them did you enjoy it do you think it’s a waste of time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are we throwing them away or do you feel gross like what are your thoughts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so i so the the only other time i ever written unit tests was for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco f c model my my outgoing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey database layer because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the this is the perfect case for your a test because it is a absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a you know small component that is that is very important very low level in the app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also very easily testable and you know it doesn’t it doesn’t take a lot of complexity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to test us because you don’t have to wait on things like user input there’s no u i to speak of there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no like weird time base to anything nothing’s based on external content like it’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the easiest thing in the world to test relative to you know what you could be doing so that being said

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’ve also done a fairly um the new version of this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is actually even smaller and simpler than f c model because a lot of it is is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is no longer necessary a lot of it have made different design choices because i made a fc model eight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nine years ago something like that things are different now we have we have more knowledge i’m better i’m a better programmer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a different world different things are in fashion with coding i’ve made different choices so it’s it’s much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco smaller and simpler and i’m also able to rely on a lot of swift stuff like for instance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the serialization of the model classes is all just almost with code like it’s all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey using in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dies and notable stuff um the protection of the database because you can’t share sequel light handles concurrently

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the protection of that is all just done with an actor a swift actor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey oh that’s super

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool it’s all access via async unless you’re on the actor so it’s just you know it’s using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of modern swift stuff to make things quite simple so i actually in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in developing these tests over the last few days i actually have found a couple of small bugs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that i made so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m so proud of you that’s exciting and i think i sound sarcastic but i genuinely mean it that’s so exciting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this is you know this is the point of making tests and again i think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in most of my own development time when things are much harder to test

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s you know whether it’s worth it has a different calculus but this whether it’s worth it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a low bar because it’s so easy to test i think what i’m going to have the most trouble

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with is just making sure i come up with good tests like because i’m not i’m not good at this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know like and you know a lot of the a lot of the tests i’ve made so far they actually are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco testing multiple things in this one i’ll use a column that can be nil and this one i’ll use your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no on this one i’ll use a column that can’t be now and it’s like it’s actually you’re actually that could be a separate test

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but i don’t want to be that verbose if i don’t have to be it’s like well if i can if i can just have this use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this table type and have this use this table type in two different tests that i’m kind of covering that as well that’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not best practice whether that matters remains to be argued i guess but there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s airs like that where it’s like i probably should be making a much low larger number

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of much smaller tests but i guess i’ll get to that

⏹️ ▶️ John oh now i like what you’re doing makes sense like you actually the unfortunate answer is that

⏹️ ▶️ John you actually need to do both you need to make the small number of individuals very very is isolated you

⏹️ ▶️ John know you know pure unit tests but then you also need a bunch of like

⏹️ ▶️ John higher level tests like what your kind of would naturally make now you can make your life a little bit easier by sort of programmatically

⏹️ ▶️ John generating the both of these things sort of make it a data driven approach oh gosh how easy swift

⏹️ ▶️ John makes that but like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey john john you’re scaring them off you’re scaring them off

⏹️ ▶️ John no but it’s like like so what what you’re doing is like oh i’m going to make a class for like you know like a

⏹️ ▶️ John store and a product and like you just make you just make dummy things to like test your database thing or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John you make dummy tables right and you make simple dummy tables and do stuff and you’re like well make sure i have some tables with numbers and

⏹️ ▶️ John some tables with strings and blobs and i’ll cover all my bases right but that’s kind of the the artisanal

⏹️ ▶️ John hand rolled test where you’re making up these little ah you know test tables and calms and stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ John that hoping to cover all the bases and then the little tiny test would be like oh instead of doing that i am just going

⏹️ ▶️ John to test every individual feature quick mac table a one that has a column that is an integer that has a combine

⏹️ ▶️ John that smell has a com the fault value has a comma in it you just you know like sort of programmatically

⏹️ ▶️ John loop over all those things making you know table t one column a one blah blah blah and then the

⏹️ ▶️ John final thing is programmatically generating a bunch of tables that cover all the bases

⏹️ ▶️ John that are more complicated right like essentially the equivalent of your store product bla bla bla big

⏹️ ▶️ John tables lots of calms foreign keys representative of all the stuff you want to test but also programmatically

⏹️ ▶️ John generated but for your library you’re using adjusting your ap it’s not an open source project what you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John doing now is i think the correct middle path of like i just cover the functionality i

⏹️ ▶️ John need because in the end since it’s not a big open source project and you’re going to stop once you hit

⏹️ ▶️ John all the features that you need for your product you’ll probably cover everything with just the test that you make

⏹️ ▶️ John and they will continue to serve the function of like later on when you you know

⏹️ ▶️ John do some performance optimization and you run your tests to be like oh i broke something because now my test fails and

⏹️ ▶️ John i wouldn’t have known that because i thought i was just doing something clever but when i want to run my tests it breaks and so i think

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll get like ninety percent of the value just from doing what you’re doing right now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool yep i agree i agree wholeheartedly and i think this is whether or not you choose

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do this in the future for most things because you already made the great point that you know it’s not exactly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey easy for a lot of general you know ios development but for this sort of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s it’s utterly perfect as he said and and i would hope that as you continue

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do this even just for fc model too then i hope you stick with it and as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you find bugs you know as you’re moving up the stack and using this an overcast or whatever as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you find bugs you know in the interaction between overcast and f c model two then i would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hope that you would write a unit test that covers that bug so this way you know you will never have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a regression on this because this unit test is there as your parachute and as long as you occasionally remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to run the unit test it will always tell you oh hold on you just screwed this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other thing up from six months ago that you really didn’t want to screw up again that’s why you wrote another test for it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that that that is a really powerful feeling and even though i actually very rarely write uni tests as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much as i am i try to speak the gospel but when i do i’m always happy for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it because it is not infrequent that i’ll make a change you know over here on my right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hand side so to speak and then something weigh the hell over on my left hand side says excuse me excuse me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i just broke do you want to fix me too please and and it’s a really really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice comforting feeling knowing that you have that parachute of awareness that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that will tell you that hey everything is still on the up and up to the best we that we can tell and and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i i really care for it for that writing tests is not glamorous it’s not terribly fun

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s kind of busy work but for me for this sort of thing particularly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i find the juice is worth the squeeze and i hope i hope that you that you do even just for these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sorts of projects and even if not you know overcast proper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so one thing i’m also doing with this i’m a which i think will help me remember to run the test

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’m i’m using this opportunity to also learn swift package manager and i’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco making i’ve already made it a swift package i don’t quite know how to use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but i like i’m i’m no longer editing like a test project i’m actually directly editing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the package itself and just you know like running the test modifying the files within the package and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s all built in there i don’t know if you’ve ever worked on a swift package it’s actually pretty nice an ex code

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s one of those things like there’s there’s no real manual so you just you know you do what we always do without with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all apple modern developer stuff is like you search the web and you find like a hacking with switch article or something and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you find some article like how to you swift package manager and tells you all like the command and what all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the different lines do eventually i’m like hey i wonder if i if i can just can i open this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dot swift this like you know package that’s wifi if i if i open this in xcode doesn’t do anything cool and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it turns out yes it does everything i guess so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway uh yeah it’s it’s been interesting you know i’m using this as an opportunity to learn lots of new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff and hopefully you know bring my skills and then after that my app forward

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from having been stuck in the past for a very long time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you plan to use this as the um the girders the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey underpinnings of the fire island app or is this strictly for overcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now the fire and up doesn’t really need a database locally it’s just like pulling stuff off a website and showing it um

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it doesn’t need it but this is this is for overcast and and you know whatever i do in the future

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like i hope my my intention with this is for this library

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to last me my entire swift programming career however long that is it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco such a like foundational building block of like your your local database layer like i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have my web version of this that that powers all of my back ends and php

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’ve been doing i’ve been using that same thing for over a decade as long as i use php

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make a web back end i have no reason not to use that library this is this is hopefully my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco swift version of alec as long as it makes sense for me to be writing in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco local sequelae databases with swift i hope to be doing it with this library

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so i’m taking the time to really get things right and frankly i’m really happy with it so far like i haven’t the only thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is i haven’t used it at the application level yet and i think it will be annoying sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have to do everything through an actor and have to do everything in nascent context that will be annoying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will be i think it was the right call at what you’ve done but it will be annoying because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as with rex before it or and combine after once you start going a single

⏹️ ▶️ Casey weight and especially once you start really embracing actors it has this tendency to like spread

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a virus throughout all your code and and after awhile you get mostly used to it but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is a little gross in that regard that being said i think that all the all the other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that come with it all the protections all the safety et cetera and and how it is reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey straightforward to make sure that you know you’re not doing anything dumb i think all that’s worth it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but you’re right it does tend to kind of infect everything which is a little bit of a bummer

⏹️ ▶️ John gotta make a feature feature pitch for you while you’re in there working on this library add

⏹️ ▶️ John throw in some kind of metric or telemetry for your for your debug mode for

⏹️ ▶️ John you can basically like log in time every single query you run all right and obviously you’re not going

⏹️ ▶️ John to run that and you know the the release version of your most likely but since you’re down there in the

⏹️ ▶️ John library now and it knows when it runs any query and no one else is running queries except for this library

⏹️ ▶️ John make a way to track literally every single one of them with all the timing and that information you can because

⏹️ ▶️ John that will probably help you when you’re up feel slow and you can’t figure out why or especially with the actor stuff you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John figure out is there a log jam of like backup of requesters one request take a long time and it

⏹️ ▶️ John was hogging the actor you know with the with the head of his handle not being able to be used concurrently

⏹️ ▶️ John you do potentially have a bottle like there and being able to sort of trace that back to the origin of like who put the query in

⏹️ ▶️ John an which query is slow it will probably be really useful and it’s it’s not you know you could do it in a janky

⏹️ ▶️ John way because who cares whatever it’s just your library um but you know you’re you’re right at that that

⏹️ ▶️ John that focal point of all of the database activity right now you’re in that code right now so i suggest

⏹️ ▶️ John adding it because it can be handy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yes smart yeah i already have a thing where i can just log ever query which has been very helpful during during development but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah you’re right actually timing it is a good idea as well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well this is awesome this is a thanksgiving gift from you to me just

⏹️ ▶️ John the gift to give himself unites are the gift you give yourself yep that’s right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the only downside is that i still to also figure out like how can this be accessed from objectives

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ugly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you need to like how much how much of overcast remains an objective see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost the entire bottom of it like almost the entire data layer and there’s there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different subsystems who overcast that are written objectives that need to access the database like for instance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on one of them is my full text search unction i wrote all that also using based on secret light but i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrote all that inject in i could rewrite that it would be a lot less code if i rewrote it in swift

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with modern stuff and with this like i could save a bunch of code but again like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like how how much how much is it worth writing rewriting something that already works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hopefully eventually will do that but you know i don’t want to have to do that before i start using this as my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco main data store so you know there are ways around it like i could theoretically was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually compatible fc model and the new engine both use the sequel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lite update hook function to detect if the table is changed through some other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco means that is not them and fire off the like something has changed listeners

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so i could theoretically maybe have fc model and this new engine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both accessing the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey database

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i shouldn’t be doing that i hope not to need to do that

⏹️ ▶️ John i now why why why is that not bad it’s that’s the whole point of a databases it’s okay

⏹️ ▶️ John to have multiple interfaces to the same table i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean it’s yeah it’s not great if you can avoid that with sequel light it’s not great to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it’s a bit of a coat smell to have multiple things accessing you’re right it’s not inextricably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wrong or it’s just not wrong but it’s just i don’t now it smells bad you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so but what i’m probably going to do is i’m probably going to make a like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know a separate file that is only the objective see in her face that is its own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire like set of separate classes to access this stuff and you know it’ll have completion handlers you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know that kind of stuff and and just you know have that be this this own separate file off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the side that when the time comes i don’t need it any more i can get rid of it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’d be very curious to hear an update um if you do go to the route of at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey trying to get the old objective sea stuff to to talk with fc

⏹️ ▶️ Casey model too that’s all the sink wait and all that and actors like i don’t know off the top of my head

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what the model or that sort of loaded term i don’t know what the like best

⏹️ ▶️ Casey operating procedures are for doing that sort of thing i don’t know if there’s even a story about it at all

⏹️ ▶️ John there is i remember seeing on twitter recently there was some people were discussing this and there was some some person who i believe

⏹️ ▶️ John works at apple was mentioning that they were talking about like a swift calling objective c

⏹️ ▶️ John i think the person was saying that actually basically putting objective c

⏹️ ▶️ John wrappers around what is swift under the covers has become common practice at apple in terms of like you know

⏹️ ▶️ John i think it was an argument about his apple riding object c a p i s versus swift api and this person was like a surprising

⏹️ ▶️ John amount of time we write the functionality in swift and then we wrap it in a candy coating of objective

⏹️ ▶️ John c and so you think you’ve got the subject to cap it really is just a thin wrap around the swift code that we actually

⏹️ ▶️ John wrote so it’s possible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey somehow totally but when you start talking think weight or combined which is relevant in this case it it

⏹️ ▶️ John but he was he was just going to do with completion angle though he’s he’s doing stuff under the covers to hide

⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that it is doing all that acnc stuff and just presenting it to the objective world as the old

⏹️ ▶️ John style like you’re gonna get a call

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco back when i’m done yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s where yeah like i could theoretically like block the actor waiting for it but i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t want to have to i mean chances are unfortunately chances are i probably will at some point have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that where like i will need to fetch something synchronously or i’ll fetch something outside of an incent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco context you know just just for some a pi or some functionality this is why like this is this is no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco small feat to to switch over to this this is going to be a long process that’s going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco involve significant rewrites of significant parts of the app and the ui um and and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is why this has been such a long time coming that i know how big of a project this is and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not going to be done any time soon like so what i’m what i’m going to start doing is using this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco library for certain subsystems of the app that are totally separate from the main database so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for instance i’m part of the app i have the ability to track what your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco data usage is like by podcast and by episode if you go into the setting screen is a data usage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco area and that’s basically just its own little sequel a database um and that that whole thing is i think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already and swift at least if not it’s close that would be fairly easy to move

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forward um however you know it’s not necessarily swift you eye and you know the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s just it’s all intertwined it’s like i’m making this whole thing to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco swift you eye and that whole era of the app better and more modern and easier and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco faster and everything else make things more responsive you know having fewer scroll hooks and stuff like that like there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all sorts of reason of doing this but it’s so much easier to write a new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ap around this new way of doing things than to adapt an old ap to it so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s it’s going to be a while and it’s going to involve significant rewrites before i can actually have this thing be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my only data store

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco of either internal and or external drives on one computer i believe i was once backing up

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco can restore single files or whole directories or your entire thing um if that’s too much to do over

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Network Locations in Ventura

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s do some follow up hey a lot of people were really upset that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in ventura network locations went away and i was vaguely familiar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with this being a thing but i never used it and i don’t know much about it so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i guess john could you kind of give me the two second overview of what this was and then tell me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about some new news we’ve gotten about it please

⏹️ ▶️ John i didn’t i didn’t use this feature much but reminded me of i think it was called location manager back in classic mac

⏹️ ▶️ John especially the ideas when i have my computer think of it as laptop right when i when i have my computer in a particular

⏹️ ▶️ John location i want the networking set up to be different so when i’m in the office i’m you know

⏹️ ▶️ John want to be on the v p n and have this thing set up this way when i’m at home i want to be on my home wifi and

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of other stuff like that and so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah there’s a there’s a great app called control plane that did this years and years and years ago not to not to say it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey better worse or different but it was a similar idea like you could set the fault printers and i think you could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey set why fy networks and all sorts of random stuff and uh yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John i think this is

⏹️ ▶️ John just for networking though but anyway um inventor like like a couple of things that we’ve talked about in the

⏹️ ▶️ John past they disappeared from system settings used to be in system preferences and the network pain and then it was no

⏹️ ▶️ John longer in system settings so this story on the observatory says that

⏹️ ▶️ John two things one if you had network locations and you run ventura you can still find them apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John in the apple menu if you go to location you’ll see the locations

⏹️ ▶️ John that you entered back before venture are still listed there but two if you want to

⏹️ ▶️ John add delete or modify locations ah even though there’s no gooey to do it kind of like what

⏹️ ▶️ John what were we talking about before there was no good and there was a command line it was that the scheduled start up and shut

⏹️ ▶️ John down stuff just like that there is a command line thing you can do from the terminal to mess

⏹️ ▶️ John with this the command is called network setup i tried to find a url to like an online man

⏹️ ▶️ John page of network set up and there’s a bunch of them from sites that are not apple apparently apple no longer

⏹️ ▶️ John has you know web page versions of all the man pages that are part of like macos

⏹️ ▶️ John slash darwin or whatever but anyway we’ll link you to the article it shows the relevant

⏹️ ▶️ John options to the command where you can list locations create location to leave the location so and so forth so i’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not so sure but since they left all the functionality in there is it just they didn’t get time dimple at this

⏹️ ▶️ John in the gooey or they decided it’s not important enough to have a good and the people who really care about it will

⏹️ ▶️ John just use the command line but yet this is the second feature that’s like that immature and i’m not sure

⏹️ ▶️ John what apple is trying to say with this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s not just those two first of all i could have sworn it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John was

⏹️ ▶️ John the the date format to your thing you should

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s exactly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s exactly what i was going to bring up but but before we get there i thought that snell had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gotten something from apple saying like yes or no whether it was delivered

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or not but i don’t remember what the answer was and i might be making this up entirely so but

⏹️ ▶️ John that might have been about venture a thirteen point zero like apple just saying like no we didn’t forget to put it in thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ John point zero we intentionally didn’t but it really doesn’t say anything about like all right but what about for the future like is this

⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that the functionality is there where the command line tool in fourteen point oh does it stay

⏹️ ▶️ John the same as it is like now or do they make a go for it or do they remove the command line tool that’s that’s the mystery that

⏹️ ▶️ John will see

M/D/Y vs. D/M/Y vs. Y/M/D

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then you had brought up and and i was about to do the same so i’m known as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the petulant fahrenheit guy because fahrenheit better than celsius but what people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t seem to understand is that i don’t have any particular love for any other imperial measure like all of them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are garbage feet dumb pounds stupid they’re all terrible every single one of them is terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my perfect world when i am king i will say metric all the things except

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ambient air temperature if you want to put the oven in celsius that’s fine i don’t care but outside temperatures

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in fahrenheit damn it that’s what makes the most sense anyway one of the things that americans get completely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wrong is that we do month day year not not day month year so let’s say the twenty first twenty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that i don’t even know it’s all burt twenty first so americans would write eleven slash twenty one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash twenty two which is dumb it should be twenty one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash eleven slash twenty two why because you get the most specific thing first which is the day

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then the slightly less specific thing next that’s the month and the least specific thing last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s the year at this point all the nerds are getting very upset at me you the eighty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey six o one or eighteen or whatever now it’s eighty six o one you have eighty six o one everything that’s the only true one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay sure if you’re storing file names then yes go year first but for anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else when you’re not in like a database or if you’re not it’s not a file name the year’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey almost always contextually obvious so start with the day man day month

⏹️ ▶️ Casey year that’s the way it should be

⏹️ ▶️ John disagree here monday we’ve talked about this before and like regardless of the

⏹️ ▶️ John the logic of case’s argument whether you agree with it the fact is that he lives in america and

⏹️ ▶️ John by doing this he’s essentially speaking of booby traps like the b package and pearl you it’s like people

⏹️ ▶️ John who who have there who have a quarry keyboard but these devora key lay out their computer is booby

⏹️ ▶️ John trap so casey’s computer and life are booby trap because any other person

⏹️ ▶️ John who lives in the same country or was raised in the same culture as him sits down on his computer is going

⏹️ ▶️ John to be bamboozled

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey by any ambiguous state because they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John all going to think it’s month day year thats why wouldn’t it be we’re in america but

⏹️ ▶️ John no it’s a trap and unless unless the day is over twelve you’re not going to be able to figure it out from

⏹️ ▶️ John context so his whole computer is screwed up and he should not do this even even if i agree with him

⏹️ ▶️ John which i don’t that it’s the better system he should move to a country where everybody does it so his life

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t booby trap

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh i see i see i’m getting i’m getting kicked out of the country of my birth simply because you don’t like my date

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John format but

⏹️ ▶️ John right because it’s like you you’re it’s like driving the other side of the road its like i think everyone should drive on the left side of

⏹️ ▶️ John the road well you have to go to another country for that don’t do it here

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well no that that’s also that’s wrong that’s demonstrably wrong you should be on the right side

⏹️ ▶️ John setting aside whether it’s right or wrong you like it or you don’t you have to go with the flow

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of conventions that’s why that’s why their conventions and you know it anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John go on this is not the part of the story the point of the story is that macos ill advisedly

⏹️ ▶️ John gave you away to booby trap your life in this matter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah well so it used to be that you could dig into like i forget exactly where it was in system preferences almost

⏹️ ▶️ Casey its settings but in system preferences you could dig into somewhere like region settings and they had these little like pills

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you could drag around and informat things in whatever banana’s way you wanted including putting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey year why would you put year first for regular use for files sure for database is sure but

⏹️ ▶️ John to be declare what you’re doing is you’re you’re telling macos hey when you display a date

⏹️ ▶️ John how should you display it it was like a little construction kit where you could you had each element and you could

⏹️ ▶️ John admit a little gooey for saying i want to have the year then a day in the month i want to have the month and day

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever way you want to do it i think you’d even put whatever characters you wanted between like slashes or hyphens

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah so that’s that’s what you’re talking about that was this is a goo that was in macos ten and sip pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John early on and disappeared in venture

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yes and also your folklore dot oric references acknowledged anyway so it used to be that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could you know drag these pills around do what you wanted and then i went i actually was about to write

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a bug report for i believe they were past sponsor of activity which is my financial management software and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because i realized all of a sudden in the last couple of months it’s no longer honoring day

⏹️ ▶️ Casey month year

⏹️ ▶️ John but you only realize that after the twelfth day of the month right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no stop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it so anyway

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i just hadn’t really paid close attention to it and then it occurred well this ain’t right and it happened a couple months ago they must have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey made some sort of wait a second where else can i look and say oh no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh no the whole system’s wrong oh no this must be something with insurance i went to go into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey system settings and look at what the situation was and sure enough i couldn’t find it and what do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you do up until a week ago what do you do when you have these sorts of problems while you ask about it on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and some very helpful people on twitter said yes you’re right it’s gone but a handful of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people pointed me to a handful of different places and lone behold there are some default

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right commands that you can do in order to set a apple i see you date format

⏹️ ▶️ Casey strings and if you set a a what you see if you set four of them then you can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get things just the way you want them which is the correct way which is day month year despite what these heathens

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say so the al put lincoln shown us he can check that out

⏹️ ▶️ John and same question about this one is that are those you know peles is going to go away and you know

⏹️ ▶️ John macos fourteen

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco or are they

⏹️ ▶️ John going to be there forever we’ll see

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man pages in Preview

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tell

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me about manpages in preview please

⏹️ ▶️ John oh this just came up because i was trying to find a link for the show nuts of like you know a nice apple dot com

⏹️ ▶️ John url for the man page for network set up and i came across you know another

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that was related in my travels which was people complaining about another aggression

⏹️ ▶️ John of ventura where preview no longer renders postscript files which you might not care

⏹️ ▶️ John about because like when do i encounter a postscript file but a lot of people like the man command that shows manual

⏹️ ▶️ John pages can could spit out postscript and then you could just pipe it to the preview thing and people had aliases set up that

⏹️ ▶️ John are just like i don’t want to read a man page in the terminal and a mono space fun i want to read it in proportional fun and rich

⏹️ ▶️ John text so i have this thing that you know does runs the runs command on man pages

⏹️ ▶️ John and then spits out a postscript and then i just pipe it to you know the unopened command that opens

⏹️ ▶️ John the preview rap and i’d stop working because preview can’t render postscript in ventura which is kind of crate but

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway time marches on well you can also generate manual pages as pdfs

⏹️ ▶️ John in ventura so you just need to change your alias so people who have never done this are interested in trying it

⏹️ ▶️ John out will put a link to this post scripting os ten dot com unfortunate

⏹️ ▶️ John domain name there but scripting osten dot com where it shows you how to set up an alias

⏹️ ▶️ John like everything else it just assumes that you run bash or something similar but if you’re weird like me

⏹️ ▶️ John you can adapt it to whatever shell you happen to run and then you too can run

⏹️ ▶️ John man commands from the terminal and have them open in preview as pdfs

iPhone case follow-up

⏹️ ▶️ John i tell you about your iphone cases finally got my second i ordered two iphone cases and

⏹️ ▶️ John the second one finally arrived i got the ryan london case a while ago and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John been on my phone ever since and i also ordered around the same time the bull strap case these are both

⏹️ ▶️ John a black leather iphone fourteen pro cases with an open bottom that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John the way i like it and the the ryan london one was cheaper the ryan lander one i forget

⏹️ ▶️ John i think when i ordered it maybe was around fifty bucks it’s currently fifty four dollars the bull strap case

⏹️ ▶️ John when i ordered it was eighty five dollars and i didn’t i didn’t order a bull strap case for my last phone but a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ John had said that oh they make really high quality leather cases you should check it out ba blah the reason i avoided last time is

⏹️ ▶️ John because i had found my lexar case that had the buttons that didn’t stick out so far

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was like you know twenty bucks or whatever since reduced to five dollars and fifty cents

⏹️ ▶️ John and i love that case but this time i couldn’t find anything like that so i’m just going to have the old the bulging buttons i but i

⏹️ ▶️ John ordered two cases that both looked like they had bulging buttons but they were both leather cases with a bare

⏹️ ▶️ John bottoms right bull strap case finally came i’ve had the ryan london gaze on

⏹️ ▶️ John my phone for don’t month or whatever now since i got it and it was like when

⏹️ ▶️ John the bull shop case comes am i going to swap it or am i just like maybe i’ll just look at it and see if it’s see

⏹️ ▶️ John if i think it’s any better than the ryan london case and when i got it and unpacked it and

⏹️ ▶️ John held it next to my phone which has the ryan lume case on it i’m pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John sure that these are literally the same case like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey whoever manufactures these

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s like one factory is making these things the only difference is that the

⏹️ ▶️ John bull strap case had it like like an embossed bull on the back of it and the ryan london case

⏹️ ▶️ John has a little embossed like no no it’s an r and but little boss circle on

⏹️ ▶️ John the the edge the side near the bottom but like the buttons were

⏹️ ▶️ John the same everything was in the same position the folds and creases in the leather look the same

⏹️ ▶️ John they smell the same they feel the same i think these are the same case

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t know why the bull trap one took forever to come i don’t know why the bull strap on was so much more expensive

⏹️ ▶️ John ah but i didn’t put it on it’s just i’d put it upstairs as a backup case because in the end of the rhine line on

⏹️ ▶️ John one doesn’t have anything on the back and i’m much more likely to feel something on the back than i would be to feel

⏹️ ▶️ John the ryan london thing that’s like on the lower left corner of the thing so if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John interested will put links to both in the show by the way the bull strap case has been price used to sixty eight dollars

⏹️ ▶️ John but i would say if you want a leather case with an open bottom and you don’t mind the bulging buttons

⏹️ ▶️ John ryan lennon case number one choice the bull strap case is identical

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i don’t get that reference but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John my

⏹️ ▶️ John cousin in the you got it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco identical you got a lap in the middle

⏹️ ▶️ John i haven’t seen as many times as you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and and hey i’ll use this as an opportunity to tell you if you haven’t heard what we’re talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can go to tp do a less join and you can hear or h b movie club episodes including the one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where we discussed my cousin vinny


⏹️ ▶️ Casey alright let’s uh let’s talk mastodon for a little bit because that is where all the cool kids are going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i guess

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i believe you’re referring to the fete verse i think we’re supposed to call it that now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that right are you being serious trolling me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s it’s the universe of kevin federline

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey wow deep cut there yeah well all right anyway i got his

⏹️ ▶️ John first name right i don’t know they just popped out of my head

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now that’s britney spears

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John is that all right anyway okay i’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John i’m in my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well now yep yep yep so anyway so i do have an account i think i had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just made it last week when we had spoken which actually we record this is like four

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or five days ago but anyway i haven’t yet toted on master on which i think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i heard rumblings are changing the name but whatever that doesn’t realy bother

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me that’s really what we’re supposed to say toted yes isn’t that like farting yes

⏹️ ▶️ John why oh god they use a trumpet symbol not a butt to get around

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah okay everyone knows what that means i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean this is the perfect example of why i just don’t think that anything here has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey been properly considered but

⏹️ ▶️ John tooting is fine is it and is it any is it any more more or

⏹️ ▶️ John less silly than tweeting which twitter didn’t even come up with on its own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a little i mean i suppose that you know in time if macedon like sticks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco around as the thing that we’re all talking about we will forget about how dumb it sounds these words

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but at the moment when you know look if something is going to replace

⏹️ ▶️ Marco twitter for a bunch of people it has to have a little bit of coolness to it and i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think this is a massive challenge for mastodon in general because for all of its you know advantages

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not cool and i think that doesn’t help but

⏹️ ▶️ John but it is fun is it yeah the little elephant thing is fun the word

⏹️ ▶️ John too is fun i i like the branding and and they sort of like the the look and

⏹️ ▶️ John feel of the ui and all that stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and all the third

⏹️ ▶️ John party apps shall get to in a little bit lots of them have variations on the word too because it’s fun just like lots of

⏹️ ▶️ John you know twitter apps had variations on bird stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sure well okay so we’re we’re already getting off the and i’m on to try to bring us back and i think this was my fault but nonetheless

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i do have an account on mason da social i have not yet tweeted posted what have you a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of the reason i haven’t done anything yet is because macedon dot social is constantly not working or at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey least in my experience over the last week damn near any time i tried to look at what was going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on on mastodon the fevers whatever almost every time it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey impossibly difficult to get a response from aston dot social now i sympathize that this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a very thankless job they probably weren’t prepared for the load that they are receiving we’re going to talk a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit more about that in a moment but i don’t know my my opening experience to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mastodon is okay the first thing you need to do is to decide which server to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey join which we talked about last week and that is fraught to begin with but leaving that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey aside then you get there and the server is often broken which is fraught and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then you gotta then you have these really really clunky user names with at casey liss at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mastodon that social which are just aesthetically kind of yucky and i don’t know i agree with what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re saying marco like yes the branding is is kind of cool i guess indifferent but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the experience to me is just so deeply

⏹️ ▶️ Casey uncool and and i’ll be the first telling maybe it’s my own ignorance and maybe i just haven’t seen the light and i haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seen what makes this so much better than twitter and i was looking at you know some feedback we got from the last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey episode and a lot of people were like well it’s nothing like twitter it’s totally different than twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco okay but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in what way is that true because i clearly don’t understand and if it’s just by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey federation like okay that’s an implementation detail i don’t really consider that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be very very different and and i don’t know it’s one of those situations where i’m looking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the sky and and the these grumble massed on monkeys are like oh no the sky is green

⏹️ ▶️ Casey baby and i’m looking at the sky and like wow that looks pretty blue to me and i don’t know if i’m right or wrong like i might be the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one who knows but i don’t know john can you explain the same year can you can you do something to make master

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not make more sense in my head

⏹️ ▶️ John so the multiple accounts thing talked about this last week that i had you know five or six accounts that i had

⏹️ ▶️ John created in twenty seventeen a mastodon accounts on different servers

⏹️ ▶️ John and that kind of i mean it kind of presented a problem with me from my experience

⏹️ ▶️ John on mastodon of like well i should probably pick one of these right to

⏹️ ▶️ John actually use but which because the problem is other people had found them because

⏹️ ▶️ John they do have a reasonable federated search feature where if you type in my last name you’ll get a bunch of hits

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll get more hits than are me because there are other accounts that are like i don’t know what they

⏹️ ▶️ John are like i think somebody set up in a heroku instance that had a bunch of like proxy accounts that represent other people have

⏹️ ▶️ John tons of people come up in that search thing and they are other people who are just like have the same name as me or have like old

⏹️ ▶️ John fake impersonation accounts but some of them are most of them are legitimate accounts that i set up for myself

⏹️ ▶️ John and they were accumulating followers and i don’t want people following an account that i’m not using

⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re just going to be disappointed because nothing’s going to happen there so i had to figure out how to solve that problem

⏹️ ▶️ John a sort of first and foremost and by the way since last week i did get a syracuse at macedon dot

⏹️ ▶️ John social so you’re running which one is the quote unquote real me they are like six or seven real needs but the one i’m currently

⏹️ ▶️ John as of the recording of this episode intending to use as syracuse macedon that social

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re you’re the agent smith of mastodon i swear

⏹️ ▶️ John well so but then i had so i had to pick which one i was going to use right the reason i picked macedon

⏹️ ▶️ John dot social is because my scant knowledge that i had at the time which i think is currently

⏹️ ▶️ John true is a macedon dot social is run by the people who make mastodon

⏹️ ▶️ John or are you know responsible for mastodon or whatever so i figure of all the sights

⏹️ ▶️ John that exist that are mastodon things they have the most skin in the game because any one of those other

⏹️ ▶️ John sites could be like i’m sick of this i don’t want to do it but the people who have you know started and run and created

⏹️ ▶️ John macedon are the most motivated to not go forget it like i’m sick of running

⏹️ ▶️ John a server it’s too much i can’t handle the moderation or whatever because they have the most skin in the game does that

⏹️ ▶️ John mean macedon dot social is the right server for me does that mean i agree with or even

⏹️ ▶️ John know anything about the moderation policies or whatever beyond what they say on the website and their conduct you know

⏹️ ▶️ John their their policy thing we’ll get to all that detail and a little bit i don’t know i don’t know if i made the

⏹️ ▶️ John right choice which is why i am not doing one of the things that it

⏹️ ▶️ John is possible to do which is oh you can just say all these other accounts you can just migrate them all and point them to the

⏹️ ▶️ John one that you care about but by doing that you essentially shut them down and put them into kind of like a

⏹️ ▶️ John locked mode those other ones and i don’t want to do that because they’re all my hedges against me having

⏹️ ▶️ John made the wrong choice about what server and obviously i’m weird and paranoid and about backups or whatever and other people

⏹️ ▶️ John other people will face the confusion of what you know server they should choose and they’ll hear from

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey their

⏹️ ▶️ John friends where they think they should go or whatever but they’re probably not as paranoid as i am in terms of like having backups

⏹️ ▶️ John of like well what if i made the wrong choice i want to have i want to basically i want to reserve my name in other places as

⏹️ ▶️ John well so if i made the wrong choice of a server i don’t have to get you know my last name one two three four five

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s some other server so i’m keeping all these other accounts the best thing i could

⏹️ ▶️ John come up with to try to indicate that i try

⏹️ ▶️ John one to indicate two things one which one of these accounts that come up when you search for me really me right

⏹️ ▶️ John like that i actually own in control and to which one is the one that i’m actually using right

⏹️ ▶️ John so on the first problem i think mastodon does something smart here if if

⏹️ ▶️ John the people currently or previously running twitter had a clue they would have done this ages ago because it is

⏹️ ▶️ John a fairly straightforward thing to do when you set up your master on account you have arbitrary name value pairs

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can put it’s like information about you right so the one i chose to put his website is the name and the

⏹️ ▶️ John value is the url of my website because i have a website it’s not it’s not hard to have one

⏹️ ▶️ John frequent sponsors of our program will allow you to make a website for yourself under a domain name that you control you should do that

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re listening to attack podcast it’s a reasonable thing to do and i have a website right when

⏹️ ▶️ John you do that they say oh and by the way if you shove the snippet of html on your website we will

⏹️ ▶️ John crawl your website find the snippet of h camel and say aha you must own and control that

⏹️ ▶️ John site because if you didn’t there’s no way you could have put the snippet of me on your side setting aside injection

⏹️ ▶️ John attacks or whatever right and if you do that when someone goes to your profile and mastodon

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll see a little green check mark next to the url that says this person isn’t just listing this website

⏹️ ▶️ John they have enough control over this website if they can influence the content of it so we’re pretty sure that is that person’s

⏹️ ▶️ John website right so because you know me and you know hypocritical dot co is my website and you see

⏹️ ▶️ John em asid on account with hypocritical dot co as the website and a green check box in theory unless someone

⏹️ ▶️ John hacked me i’m the only person who could have put that checkmark there any master on account will you see

⏹️ ▶️ John website hypocritical dot com green checkmark that’s me so i basically self verified

⏹️ ▶️ John right this is something that lots of services do speaking of d n s last week or whatever when you do a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff you can put it the a text record or you put something on your website so they can validate when you’re setting

⏹️ ▶️ John up a certificate that they want you to prove that you only domain that you get an s certificate for

⏹️ ▶️ John this technique is used frequently is it as thorough as you know showing

⏹️ ▶️ John a government id to a department and water probably not but boy

⏹️ ▶️ John is it better than nothing and and the best thing about it is it it’s self service now it’s self

⏹️ ▶️ John service for nerds because most people don’t have their own websites but hey you listen to a dp you should do this so i think

⏹️ ▶️ John this is a good system for tech nerds to moderately self

⏹️ ▶️ John verify and it helps me solve that first problem of which one of these are really in me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can we well let me just interrupt you there i stumbled upon this when i was setting up my master on profile

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and i could not agree more that i think this is extremely smart and yeah maybe it won’t work for like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey celebrities or whatever but for the purposes of nerds like you said i think this is very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey clever very simple and does a pretty good job of accomplishing what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a blue tick does on twitter with some amount of certainty and in confidence

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and i really really dig this and i really think that this is an extremely clever and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an easy way to show some form of validation that an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey account is who they say they are and and i really think this was smart

⏹️ ▶️ John and if it’s good enough for ssl certificates which you know people trust like oh this is really apple dot com that is

⏹️ ▶️ John because i realize all certificate owned by apple ball like that’s that’s basically how t s verification but there

⏹️ ▶️ John are higher levels of verification that you you know pay more money for that are more thorough but in the end controlling your

⏹️ ▶️ John d ns records and controlling your actual website enough to put like you know

⏹️ ▶️ John random you know codes or values in there is how the things automated

⏹️ ▶️ John systems valid ownership of domains the second problem is okay i’ve got five accounts you can see here all

⏹️ ▶️ John met as they got the green check mark against my ural which one i’m actually using and my solution for that was

⏹️ ▶️ John to change my avatar image on all the accounts i’m not using to be my face

⏹️ ▶️ John with big red buster through it like red circle with a line through it

⏹️ ▶️ John now cash propagation and federation being what it is i might take it well for that to propagate but now if you search for syracuse

⏹️ ▶️ John you should see one of my smiling faces with nothing over it and then a bunch of other of my smiling faces with

⏹️ ▶️ John a big red circle on the line through it which doesn’t mean they’re not me it just means not this one don’t follow this

⏹️ ▶️ John one because i’m not using that one i’m not shutting it down i’m not forwarding it to the other one yet because it’s my hedge against me

⏹️ ▶️ John having made a terrible choice about whatsoever are going to be on but anyway and that if this all

⏹️ ▶️ John sounds involve overly involved this is part of the problem part of the problem

⏹️ ▶️ John and also part of the advantage of mastodon the problem is i don’t know where to satisfy thing the

⏹️ ▶️ John advantage is if you make the wrong choice in theory you can just make another choice in the future and you

⏹️ ▶️ John know so that’s i don’t have advice on what people should do again my choice of

⏹️ ▶️ John massing on its social based on them having most skin in the game may not be what you would use to choose

⏹️ ▶️ John it would be like in theory that you can make a choice based on which place

⏹️ ▶️ John you think you will find the most pleasant right um

⏹️ ▶️ John do the do the moderators and the rules that are set up in this instance fit with what i

⏹️ ▶️ John want to give the example of people passing round because it was such arter did you know some instances don’t allow cursing

⏹️ ▶️ John right if you want to be in on an instance where they don’t allow cursing that one might be for

⏹️ ▶️ John you right but maybe you should know a little bit more about the people who are running it because they might have other opinions that you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John agree with and if you want one where you can post porn like that you probably have to find one that loves

⏹️ ▶️ John that and be aware whether they don’t write it’s just it’s just like anything else but it is

⏹️ ▶️ John currently at the young state we’re at now before the gmail yahoo and

⏹️ ▶️ John hotmail of the mastodon world have come into being it’s just kind of a bunch of people guessing

⏹️ ▶️ John or going where their friends are so that’s kind of how i ended up where i am

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so i did a search for syracuse looked for people and i see one two three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey four five six counts only one of which has a buster through it which is by the way i never knew

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was what that was called to thank you for that but i

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know if that’s what it’s called but it might it might have just been from ghostbusters

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh gotcha right right right well anyways i only see one of them with the circle and a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash every other one well of the others one of them is the same picture with a with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gray like a completely gray scale background one of them is the default avatar one of them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looks identical to your real one and then one of them is also the avatar

⏹️ ▶️ John what i found when changing these avatars is the the propagation of the new avatar

⏹️ ▶️ John across aps and whatever is slow like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John you know whatever i do i don’t know if the aps are cashing it if there’s something in between is cashing the instance of cashing in by

⏹️ ▶️ John someone in the chatroom said i’m not a macedonia social i am that’s what i’m saying the one i’m using will put a line in the shirt

⏹️ ▶️ John syracuse and macedon dot social that one as of the recording right now is the one i am

⏹️ ▶️ John actually using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so this is what i mean this the federation thing here so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what gives me hope with all of this is not mastodon itself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being massively successful in the future i think that might happen it probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco won’t happen i think they’re they’re having a great influx now i still have some doubts like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it you know ap dot net really really burned me in the sense of like that was a time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when we thought we were going to really move a lot of people off twitter and we moved some people off twitter for a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco while and then it just kind of fell apart it wasn’t enough on this i think we have a much better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chance this time of actually doing something meaningful and pulling people off of twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like permanently and having something much bigger than at it ever was like i think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have a good chance here but it’s so hard to say like okay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well hey let’s all move to mastodon and then the first question is which mastodon and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that throws a huge wall upon everyone’s faces that makes it very difficult to get into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very difficult for a large community to form and and look mastodon is not brand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new it didn’t just long has been around for a few years and it seems to have had some success

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing like smaller groups of people talking with each other having like you know small like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco special interest servers or or you know certain groups of friends or certain groups of people whatever it is creating a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of small places and that’s fine that’s that’s a useful feature to have it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco useful role to serve but if you’re going to try to create what twitter is and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was which is the one big place where lots of people are and we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can all you know micro chat together in this real time short text way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco twitter was the place where like everyone was i don’t see mastodon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reaching that point because it’s it isn’t just one place and to them that’s a feature i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and i understand why it’s a feature but i don’t see it happening what does give me hope

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in that area is the this whole activity pub thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where mastodon is one piece of software that communicates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over activity pub which is the standard that kind of is the backbone of federated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco social microblogging well they aren’t the only way to do activity pub so micro blog supports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it which i believe you mentioned last week and so so you could you could actually use microdata

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to follow mastodon accounts and vice versa um there was a message

⏹️ ▶️ Marco earlier today on twitter from matt mullenweg of automatic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who owns tumbler saying that they are trying to get that done really soon on tumbler where tumbler

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would itself also be an activity pub i assume host and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco supplier i guess publisher um so if they do that then tumbler could also publish

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in and out of this world like this network so this the concept of activity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pub could be bigger than master on a now it could be like the difference between like word press and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco r s s were like you can publish a blog using wordpress you can also publish

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a blog using anything else and just publish an rss feed and people can you know consume and subscribe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to anything that publishes in our feed whether it’s a wordpress blog or any other any other engine you know activity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pub seems to be that for social networks now i think there’s a lot of challenges to get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in that kind of thing to meaningful scale a lot of challenges

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are not easy and might never be solved but i think that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more promising to me than macedon itself being the one thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that takes off i don’t think that’s super likely i think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco macedon will be great the way it is now i don’t see it scaling bigger but mate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hey i could be wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John so just to make it clear to the people when you are complaining about the instances when you pick your instance

⏹️ ▶️ John you can still see things and follow people who are on other instances that’s why that’s what makes it federated

⏹️ ▶️ John right there you know there are consequences if you choose the instance because you’re sort of putting yourself under the control of the people

⏹️ ▶️ John who administer that instance and there are different rules that instance instances can defeat other instances

⏹️ ▶️ John but in general the idea is you’re not just seeing things from that instance you’re seeing things and you know with the

⏹️ ▶️ John activity pub you can see things from tumble or whatever on the subject of scalability like activity

⏹️ ▶️ John pub kind of like our s s is just a tiny part of that equation when it comes to

⏹️ ▶️ John scaling you need something to to implement

⏹️ ▶️ John the federation as in okay so a bunch of people are post you know publishing activity pub

⏹️ ▶️ John i follow a bunch of different people who are spread all over the internet and you know

⏹️ ▶️ John how do i see all their stuff in a timely manner and how does my stuff get to them right

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what mastodon does as a piece of software right whether it’s just talking to itself or other instances

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever it implements that right and related to scalability um

⏹️ ▶️ John looking at this as this is a post on nora dot codes which is a cool url um someone took

⏹️ ▶️ John a look at a mass on instance they were running that was having problems and having a lot of experience

⏹️ ▶️ John scaling web applications when i look at this it tells me a lot about how mastodon is currently architected

⏹️ ▶️ John and what the potential scalability of this arrangement is and i can tell you they are

⏹️ ▶️ John very similar to where tom to where twitter was in the very very early bad old

⏹️ ▶️ John days of the field

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey this is

⏹️ ▶️ John not a this is not an architecture that can scale to twitter’s size and you may

⏹️ ▶️ John be saying well that’s the whole point it doesn’t need to have millions and millions of tiny mass instances

⏹️ ▶️ John each only need to be able to deal with just a small number of people that are on them and so scaling isn’t a problem

⏹️ ▶️ John first i would say that’s not true because once the activity on activity pub reaches a certain

⏹️ ▶️ John level not how few people you have on an instance if they all follow a bunch of celebrities you got a

⏹️ ▶️ John big problem there in terms of the explosion of the number of messages and follows and followers and all that other stuff or

⏹️ ▶️ John if they host each host one celebrity i’d say um but too like just architecturally if you look

⏹️ ▶️ John out there you know it may not be obvious by looking at this big techno thing here or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John but there’s a reason twitter totally re architected from what it was in the early days to

⏹️ ▶️ John what it is today because you can’t scale to twitter size without doing that and at the side last week i think

⏹️ ▶️ John it is inevitable that people will congregate on larger instances you will

⏹️ ▶️ John not get a million instances with ten people you’ll get one instance with five million people one instance

⏹️ ▶️ John with three million people and then a long tail right like it’s not you know it’s it’s not going to be a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ John percent centralized is the whole point of this but people will congue it there’s there’s just no avoiding it which leads

⏹️ ▶️ John to a bunch of other problems anyway uh this is not the fault of mastodon i think they’ve come a long

⏹️ ▶️ John way and what they’ve done but looking at this looking at the way they have the set up and the different cues and the

⏹️ ▶️ John the tweaking of of you know database connections at least every number in this post is tiny

⏹️ ▶️ John right tiny and the parts of it i seem not to be able to broker be broken down any further

⏹️ ▶️ John or to be parallelized any further it’s bad right is not this is

⏹️ ▶️ John this is yeah this is not going to scale to millions of people in any one massed on

⏹️ ▶️ John an instance unless they really really changed the way they’re doing the software like it’s not as bad as i probably not sad

⏹️ ▶️ John at all twitter because i think early twitter didn’t even have uses for stuff or whatever to the credit of massed on their

⏹️ ▶️ John their ahead of that but yeah so um that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re mentioning macedon to socialist feeling slow well they’ve had a huge influx of people and so they

⏹️ ▶️ John need to deploy more hardware and but mastodon as an application is

⏹️ ▶️ John not easily horizontally scalable so they might have to get bigger instances and start scaling vertically

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a bit of a problem i think they will weather the current storm but if

⏹️ ▶️ John growth continues they will hit a limit and it will be similar to the limit that twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John hit where you know fail wells are fallen from the sky and they have to really

⏹️ ▶️ John just say we’re going to do our stuff in a different way and twitter was able to do that because

⏹️ ▶️ John they had tons of money from i’m assuming venture capital but eventually advertisers as well

⏹️ ▶️ John to pay good developers to come and make the twitter that exists today which is

⏹️ ▶️ John way way more scalable than the old one was where does that money come from for mastodon they have a

⏹️ ▶️ John patriot but it’s peanuts compared to the amount of money the twitter put into re architecting

⏹️ ▶️ John twitter so it’s difficult same thing with tumbler tumbler wants to do activity pub it’s kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John easy to publish that but if you want to be part of the feathers and follow things that you know your tumbler thing you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to follow people in various mass instances and other people on tumbler they are signing up for the same problem presumably as

⏹️ ▶️ John tumbler is better positions because they are much bigger scale than and mastodon has ever been

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s still a hard problem it’s still not trivial you know and i guess tumbler has money somehow

⏹️ ▶️ John through automatic or whatever where they can pay for this but i’m i’m not saying these are insurmountable

⏹️ ▶️ John problems they’re surmount le twitter surmounted them but i they they give me concern and

⏹️ ▶️ John on the other side of scale body aside from technical is human scalability this is what i was getting

⏹️ ▶️ John at last week was saying that any master on instance that continues to grow will have all the same problems as tum

⏹️ ▶️ John as twitter i keep saying tumble some examples of that this is back from twenty eighteen

⏹️ ▶️ John i think i remember the story when it happened but i had forgotten and it came back up again will wheaton star

⏹️ ▶️ John trek person an actor apparently he got sort of a chased off

⏹️ ▶️ John and asked it on instance in twenty eighteen because his account kept getting reported by people who didn’t like him

⏹️ ▶️ John and the men basically said you know i don’t you know i don’t really blame you but i’m going to

⏹️ ▶️ John shut down your accoun just because it’s too much of a hassle because people are constantly yelling at me to get rid of your account another

⏹️ ▶️ John thing masted onto technology a place where i had a masson on account since twenty seventeen is shutting down because

⏹️ ▶️ John the person who is running it just can’t handle running it anymore because life goes on and they were doing it themselves

⏹️ ▶️ John and putting their time and energy into it and it’s a pretty thankless job i’ll put a link to that post

⏹️ ▶️ John where you can read about that person’s reasoning and then finally a co founder of

⏹️ ▶️ John dream with dot org dream w i d t h um and the former head of trust

⏹️ ▶️ John and safety at live journal from around two thousand two people remember live journal posted an interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John twitter thread that includes the bare minimum for

⏹️ ▶️ John evaluating when a new service whether or not to sign up for a new service and it’s seven items

⏹️ ▶️ John so if you were you know if this person who has vast experience in and trust and safety with an actual large

⏹️ ▶️ John growing community so how do i know whether i should even look at signing up for this account he need to have these

⏹️ ▶️ John seven things and will put a link to the thread that you can read more detail biologist the bullet point one the terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of service and policy are publicly available and prominently linked and you can look at them without having to have a login

⏹️ ▶️ John to the terms of service is not containing a bar binding arbitration clause or class action preclusion

⏹️ ▶️ John clause there’s lots of nasty stuff you can put in the terms of service you want to at least look for the obvious things that

⏹️ ▶️ John we know are bad and that they are not the three that the ownership is clearly and easily identifiable who runs this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing who owns it how you know how how are they organized like you know who

⏹️ ▶️ John are these people that i am giving my information to for the people who run the place don’t believe in the

⏹️ ▶️ John real name policies because they you know they don’t have the mistaken notion that real name policies

⏹️ ▶️ John for rent of use it’s not true they don’t five that the team that runs the thing is public about where

⏹️ ▶️ John their funding came from what their business plan is and what form of corporate structure they’ve chosen and why

⏹️ ▶️ John a six that they have a registered dmca designated agent in the u s or the equivalent

⏹️ ▶️ John and the e u to the old with copyright stuff and seven information the information available pre sign up doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John indicate that they believe abuse prevention can be achieved with one or two simple tricks basically just saying

⏹️ ▶️ John like do these people look like they have done the minimum amount to sort of understand what they’re signing up

⏹️ ▶️ John for most macedonians probably don’t clear this hurdle and what i would say is these are

⏹️ ▶️ John this is from the perspective of somebody who ran us trusting safety live journal right if you run a tiny instance

⏹️ ▶️ John with seven of your friends you don’t need to worry about any of this who cares right but if you run an instance

⏹️ ▶️ John that you have any notion of growing beyond a small handful of people and

⏹️ ▶️ John communities tend to do that if they you know gain popularity you’re signing up for dealing with all

⏹️ ▶️ John this stuff and you can read the thread you could read this person’s other thread where they describe what it was

⏹️ ▶️ John like to learn all this on the job at live journal and how harrowing it was i would warn

⏹️ ▶️ John you that you probably don’t want to read that thread if you are upset by the

⏹️ ▶️ John tears that other humans can inflict on each other on the internet but that’s what’s

⏹️ ▶️ John waiting for you at the end of anything even approaching twitter like scale ah

⏹️ ▶️ John and when there’s a commercial company doing it they have a profit motive they can hire people and even then it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John difficult because the people who have to do all the trust and safeties off is a hard job content moderation just kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of grinds people up but if you make a site on the internet where millions of people can come and post

⏹️ ▶️ John content like their own what they call user generated content you’re signing up for a whole host

⏹️ ▶️ John of problems that you cannot even imagine and so it’s almost like if you want to run a little mess on an instance

⏹️ ▶️ John for you and your friends you’d better not let anybody else in and even one of your friends might end up being a jerk about it

⏹️ ▶️ John right and or one of your friends one of your friends posts a screenshot from major league baseball and then you get a lawyer

⏹️ ▶️ John sending you a letter telling you need to shut down your mass on an instance

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and

⏹️ ▶️ John you like it was just ten people what the heck is going on not you know

⏹️ ▶️ John their scalability in terms of text ac but then their scalability in terms of i want to

⏹️ ▶️ John run an establishment where humans gather and communicate on the internet

⏹️ ▶️ John and both of those are really difficult

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to wrangle and that i think that’s what has me most concerned about mastodon that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frankly i don’t think they’re bringing in enough money to make it possible to pay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a large enough trust and safety team to deal with that correctly like i

⏹️ ▶️ John really don’t but when you said this a couple times you keep saying mastodon there is a company that makes the software

⏹️ ▶️ John and runs mastodon dot social but but every other mastodon instance that is not run by

⏹️ ▶️ John them are their own is their own entity with who knows what they do they have a business model where does their

⏹️ ▶️ John money come from who’s running that serve like it’s a piece of software that anybody can take and run which is again the beauty

⏹️ ▶️ John and the promise of it but also means that you have to make these judgments about every single one of

⏹️ ▶️ John those things so mastodon has some responsibility because they’re sort of running running the biggest instance and making

⏹️ ▶️ John the software but they have no responsibility or control over these those other instances that are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there yeah and that’s that’s its own set of issues but but you know that’s largely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the federation gold but yeah that’s any of these mass on instances

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that get significantly sized i think they’re going to have this this significant challenge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like you know it it was one thing when it was mostly a bunch of you know nerds from germany using it you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know who i’m sure were all very polite now it’s another thing when a whole bunch of twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco refugees are looking for a place to go many of whom you don’t really want in your service

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s only going to be harder and harder like if mastodon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco succeeds which it seems to be already succeeding in capturing a bunch of twitter refugees

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s almost like getting a bunch of toxic waste to be you know installed in your property it’s like well i don’t really want this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco burden thanks like it’s in many ways it’s not what you want and most mass

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on instances are not going to have either the the money or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the you know person hours or the will power to be able to deal with the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amount of crap that will rain down upon them from running a social site that big

⏹️ ▶️ John and so that the end of this thread here the statement for the person who is posting it

⏹️ ▶️ John from live journal say failing any one of these seven issues is a proxy for governance knowledge and judgment

⏹️ ▶️ John issues that in my opinion are highly unlikely to be resolved before someone gets hurt and so again this is based on the premise

⏹️ ▶️ John that that your instance grows like the person is saying if your instance keeps

⏹️ ▶️ John growing eventually whether you know it or not you will be

⏹️ ▶️ John partially responsible for somebody getting hurt because someone is on there and their abusive ex finds

⏹️ ▶️ John them and they get docked and you’re not you don’t deal with it fast enough and then someone goes to someone’s house and kills them and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like you feel guilty about that and it’s like i didn’t sign up for this i just wanted to have a place to talk about baseball with

⏹️ ▶️ John my friends or something you know my baseball and this is this is not the fault of mastodon

⏹️ ▶️ John this is true of an irc server of a slack you make of a discord you make of like of anything

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can think of a web bulletin board that you make like just any kind of place online that you

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of create and run where humans communicate each other these problems are

⏹️ ▶️ John you know tail is all this time right it is is not new and it is not the fault of mastodon that is doing

⏹️ ▶️ John this but this is the challenge that mastodon threw the popularity of it as a destination for torte

⏹️ ▶️ John refugees each one of those instances is signing up to varying degrees to these type of challenges

⏹️ ▶️ John and their their difficult challenges and usually to tackle them in any way

⏹️ ▶️ John there needs to be like a countervailing factor live journal the people

⏹️ ▶️ John running that wanted to run a service where people could be online a business where people could be online and

⏹️ ▶️ John talk to each other and have their live journals or whatever so the character failing factor is there we were running a business

⏹️ ▶️ John and that one of the difficult parts of the business is content moderation in dealing with abuse and so on and so forth but in

⏹️ ▶️ John the end we’re trying to build the business here we we collect money we get paid this is our living same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing with twitter whether it fell backwards into it or whatever from odio and making podcast stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John they decided they’re going to make a business called twitter it’s going to eventually be a public company and they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to make money from it and they’re going to use that money to pay content moderate like that’s the countervailing factor

⏹️ ▶️ John and then they’re the hobby ones oh it’s just going to be ten people it’s not a big deal it’s never going to be big deal we’re never

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna let more than ten people we’re just going to do this and we can participate just as equally in the fate of us

⏹️ ▶️ John as anyone else we can follow all our celebrities on the big famous servers but we have our own server

⏹️ ▶️ John with our own domain name and it’s just literally going to be me and my ten friends or my family server or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John right or if you want to go down to the individual level you could have individual servers that i feel like is the

⏹️ ▶️ John is the promise of federation that you can avoid all of this by keeping your little

⏹️ ▶️ John area owned and controlled by you or someone that you know closely but still participate

⏹️ ▶️ John in the larger thing but someone’s got to run the larger thing and if it’s not going to be you with your little

⏹️ ▶️ John family instance or whatever where you know where are the celebrities going to be what instance they’re going to be on who’s

⏹️ ▶️ John going to run that and how are they going to fund that and you know a patriot which it looks well funded

⏹️ ▶️ John for a patron for an open source project but it is not well funded for something that is ever going to have a fraction

⏹️ ▶️ John of the traffic of twitter so it is it is a challenge that remains like i’m not i’m not you know this is

⏹️ ▶️ John not a condemnation a mastodon i’m just trying to lay the groundwork for the people who are enthusiastic

⏹️ ▶️ John about it to say this is where things will inevitably these are the problems that will have to be tackled

⏹️ ▶️ John for this to continue to grow

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John continue to grow and it stays a sign it is the size it is they will just have the current problems which you already

⏹️ ▶️ John have instances where the moderators make a decision that’s a mistake and then people get angry about it and then

⏹️ ▶️ John they threaten to defeat from each other lots of things where sites were threatening to defeat the biggest site

⏹️ ▶️ John macedon dot social because they didn’t agree with some moderation decisions and you know warring factions

⏹️ ▶️ John like that it’s that’s again not new on the internet warring b b s’s warring

⏹️ ▶️ John irc servers warring i irc channels you know i’m going to block you you’re going to block

⏹️ ▶️ John me i’m not going to accept your thing you’re not going to accept my that’s that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s at the current scale then the current scale is small right and you know

⏹️ ▶️ John making saying all this is probably not making people want to set up a macedon instance

⏹️ ▶️ John at all because it sounds like a headache and it kinda is that’s what i’m saying there has to be

⏹️ ▶️ John a counterbalance something on the other side of it to balance that out to make it worth while another

⏹️ ▶️ John example there is a new york times story today the headline is chaos on twitter leads a group of journalists who started

⏹️ ▶️ John an alternative so a bunch of journalists made like a mason on instance i think it was an about cost i forget it

⏹️ ▶️ John was either mass in our coast anyway they made an instance and there like boy running instance is a pain

⏹️ ▶️ John and trying to verify people

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey dealing

⏹️ ▶️ John with moderate to it’s just a bunch of journalists and it’s like we don’t have time for this we should just

⏹️ ▶️ John be doing our journalism job right the service that twitter was providing was being the big giant company

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can get mad at that somehow found a way to fund itself with venture capital and or advertisements while you could just

⏹️ ▶️ John get mad at their dumb decisions but at least you didn’t have to run the place

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah it’s like nobody wants to run this like it is such a can of worms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is such a burden to try to run a social network like it’s funny like a friend earlier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a slack group a kind of joke like would i ever go back to tumbler like its to work there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and i said

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John no way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because like you know i mean i have i hadn’t worked there since twenty ten so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s been quite a long time but even at the scale we were back then we were like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know haven’t we were getting calls from like high school principals occasional police departments

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you know with disputes or posts that they want to be taken down whatever and that was back then like at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically no scale compared to where social networks have gone since then it was disheartening

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have to and most of it didn’t even make it to a place where i would even see it like we had a whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco support staff handling it when i left but i would occasionally like you know one would pass over my desk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’d have to like go to eat something and it’s like it was just so disheartening the the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual reality of running the social network today is so much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more involved there are different legal requirements there are different cultural expectations there are different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different governments and law enforcement groups that demand some kind of channel to reach

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you and to deal with things and it is so complicated it is so hairy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and fraught there is no good option on many of the decisions you have to make as as the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new twitter owner is finding out and it is it’s just such a mess nobody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wants to do that unless there is some massive upside like you are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a giant social company funded by giant venture capitalists and you’re going to have some kind of big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ad play down the road that’s what makes it worth these companies doing it and not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even always then so that’s why i worry like if any of these smaller

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones actually get meaningful like traction and get a whole bunch of people using them and you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as they start getting the celebrities and everything it just causes so many problems for them and i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really worry about their own longevity

⏹️ ▶️ John and the the attacks the attack vectors and the powers that are working against you are way more sophisticated

⏹️ ▶️ John than they were because now it has been proven to be a valuable thing to leverage these networks

⏹️ ▶️ John for nefarious ends even just the you know the sort of harassment campaigns and

⏹️ ▶️ John the post gamergate playbook of how you know bad actors come in and

⏹️ ▶️ John mess people up right that’s way more way more sophisticated and way way easier to just

⏹️ ▶️ John you know pick up that playbook and run it and you know on a flip side trust and safety as a profession

⏹️ ▶️ John has become you know more sophisticated as well to combat that those are a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ John people that in fired from trader by the way but you know but then again you have to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a you have to if you’re going to sign up for this you need to you know recruit those people hire them and you know

⏹️ ▶️ John try to make the right decisions and i always keep saying this every time we talk about this this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the promise of federation that that individual companies will have the opportunity to do this

⏹️ ▶️ John differently and better they were not stuck with just the billionaire and his his whims

⏹️ ▶️ John or previously the board of directors of twitter and their whims right that we have multiple chances to get

⏹️ ▶️ John this right but law of averages most of them are going to get wrong and

⏹️ ▶️ John in increasingly spectacular ways albeit on a smaller scale so it is difficult there is there is an

⏹️ ▶️ John interview in time magazine with the creator of mastodon eugen

⏹️ ▶️ John rocco rocco i don’t know how to pronounce his name um it’s short there’s not much there but you can

⏹️ ▶️ John take a look at it um it’s just somebody who is dissatisfied with twitter and wanted to do something better

⏹️ ▶️ John and started this project around twenty sixteen ish and it’s a pretty big open source success story

⏹️ ▶️ John like i said it’s come a long way since i signed up for all those accounts in twenty seventeen

⏹️ ▶️ John but the scale problems remain and the human problems are just you know

⏹️ ▶️ John just lurking around the quarter and waiting to mess people up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then you did a tour of about three hundred and five client aps so do you want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to tell me what the winner is

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah so first i will put a link to a very long post by anna nicholson

⏹️ ▶️ John that reviews a bunch of macedon clients um this blog post i we’ll put links

⏹️ ▶️ John to the clients as well there’s also someone made a google sheet i’m not sure who created this there’s a google sheet that has a feature

⏹️ ▶️ John comparison with just a little you know check box like do you have this feature yes no of like a whole bunch of different clients

⏹️ ▶️ John i tried to find as many master on clients as i could and tried them out since we

⏹️ ▶️ John last recorded i had the interesting experience of like i’d some was would suggest a client for

⏹️ ▶️ John me and i would go look for it in the app store and instead of the button saying bye or get

⏹️ ▶️ John it would say open because it was already installed on my phone or the other alternatives

⏹️ ▶️ John i just got the cloud icon with a down reporting error which is like you already own this app you just need to download it right

⏹️ ▶️ John someone suggested a mac app and i went to the same thing happened in the mac app store like wait a second i hit

⏹️ ▶️ John command space i just launched it was already installed and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey how i found some of my accounts i

⏹️ ▶️ John found some of those accounts that i’d forgotten about i launched the map that i was trying out and i already had registered accounts

⏹️ ▶️ John oh i missed that one it was like m s d n dot io whatever it is anyway but the

⏹️ ▶️ John the apps have all gotten better since then so first there’s the official client just called mastodon it’s on ios

⏹️ ▶️ John the official clients it’s pretty okay right i like the idea of the official client case at least

⏹️ ▶️ John i kind of know again the people who make it are motivated to have massed on succeed and they

⏹️ ▶️ John probably aren’t using it to bitcoin mine on my phone right probably yeah there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco media

⏹️ ▶️ John highly recommended they remind me a lot of totara s cause these are apps that like a single developer can make and

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s an api for it and each one does stuff a little bit differently a mammoth

⏹️ ▶️ John which is currently in beta shows a lot of promise but is just not feature complete yet like the preference screen ninety percent

⏹️ ▶️ John of the things don’t do anything there yet but i do like the look of it so far tusker is also in a

⏹️ ▶️ John testflight beta i like some stuff about that app there’s two to t with an exclamation point

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s tootle there’s also tote with three o two

⏹️ ▶️ John which is open open source and cross platform i looked at the source code for tote by the way i think it’s react native cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like basically he whole apples written in typescript kind of or maybe it’s not reacted maybe it’s just literally react in a webview i

⏹️ ▶️ John couldn’t quite figure it out it’s like objective c and then there’s like this react thing that runs inside it there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John mass m a s t mercury and something called fete

⏹️ ▶️ John which is a macedon client and also a promo p l

⏹️ ▶️ John e r o m a i didn’t get a chance to look

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for all is assuming it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John another federated thinking and then mac as i can only find two which is typical um

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s masto knot which is the one i already had installed um and then there is hyperspace desktop

⏹️ ▶️ John which is looks kind of webview so of all these applications they all kind of look like what twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John clients look like in the early days before like the more mature competitors kind of like settled in

⏹️ ▶️ John they all feel like web views well some of them do but i think they’ve learned a lot from twitter clients

⏹️ ▶️ John they are somewhat constrained by the api like they’re not most of them aren’t doing things

⏹️ ▶️ John that the api don’t allow you to do they do have widely varying performance based on like you know some of it

⏹️ ▶️ John is is your service slow but some of it is also like how skilled are you as an ios developer of making the app

⏹️ ▶️ John feel snappy making it making me don’t feel feel like i don’t have to constantly pull to refresh like preemptively getting

⏹️ ▶️ John things when you know i’m going to read the next one how well do they all handle threading and all that

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff like i don’t people ask me which one do you like which is your favorite i don’t have a favorite i’ve honestly

⏹️ ▶️ John been using all like every single lap that i listed there i used each one of those at least once per

⏹️ ▶️ John day since since we last recorded i just jumped from one to the other and i honestly can’t decide

⏹️ ▶️ John none of them do everything that i want but each one of them does something vaguely interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John the only one that i really can’t use is unfortunately masto naut because they don’t as far as i can tell a mass not

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no way to show in notifications just my mentions and i don’t want to see a list of like falls and phase i just

⏹️ ▶️ John want to see mentions and i don’t think there’s a way to do that master not so that’s a big gap but mostly other ones i can

⏹️ ▶️ John get the job done and then of course there’s the web client which is pretty flexible and reasonable if you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to go that route

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can we as a member perk can we have a a isolated recording of john

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saint

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John total

⏹️ ▶️ John and this is not all of them by the way i’m sure there are more like if you just search for two tootle

⏹️ ▶️ John mastodon like on the app store there’s more there’s more all the time right it’s just it is it is fun

⏹️ ▶️ John to you know go through a bunch of apps and try them out again you know one of my favorites i think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John which one is it is it is either tutor tootle one of them decided that the way it’s going to do like

⏹️ ▶️ John a account switching you know cause you have more than one account is they put a little

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of quarter circle in the lower right corner of the screen and you rotate that quarter circle

⏹️ ▶️ John and the entire rectangle of your phone screen rotates with it like it’s like a fan like a fan well that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of cool i don’t know where they came up with that i don’t think it’s a particularly good idea but it’s fun oh i think that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John having a super fun

⏹️ ▶️ John it feels good to do it looks stupid and i don’t think it’s the right thing to do but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s fun to try a nap that does something a little bit different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what was it was a path that had that really clever menu in like the bottom right where it would like explode out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a radial menu right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah yeah yeah i’d really like to path through the fifteen minutes it existed so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco i could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be your day social network and the give you night social

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reference acknowledged yeah because that was the path guy right

⏹️ ▶️ John yes i forget which one it is maybe it’s tusker may oh god i god need to launch they the all how comes

⏹️ ▶️ John with elephants on them so you can’t intelligence but something on just stuff treading where on the avatar kind show like dots

⏹️ ▶️ John to be like notes and a graph you can tell like a programmer was is making the sea i like i think of it as a graph with nodes so

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m going to show it that way not sure that one works either but it’s it’s interesting right and

⏹️ ▶️ John so here here’s the kicker to all this all this is going on and i’m here trying mastodon and onlines

⏹️ ▶️ John and massimo stuff and by the way i’m also participating mastodon replying to people posting things reading things that

⏹️ ▶️ John other people do oh i forgot to mention one final thing if you would like to become a twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John refugee and find a massed on server somewhere but you’re like but how do i know where all of my the people

⏹️ ▶️ John i used to follow on twitter how do i know where they are so i can find them again the convention that is developed

⏹️ ▶️ John is that the people who leave twitter or not leave twitter but like become twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John refugees are trying to go to mason they put somewhere in their bio or somewhere in there like twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John information they put their mastodon address either in the at whatever at macedon dot

⏹️ ▶️ John social form or in just a url form and then there are a bunch of like you know free online

⏹️ ▶️ John tools that will using the tutor a p i find the list of people you follow scrape

⏹️ ▶️ John all their bios look for something that looks like a mastodon address and find them and present them to you so we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John put a link to one in the show notes it’s fetty finder i glitched at me there’s a bunch of other ones that it links to in the explanation

⏹️ ▶️ John page and you just you know enter your tutor and fro and authorize it and it will show you here’s

⏹️ ▶️ John all the people we could find and where they are and you’ll see that like ninety percent of the motor macedon not social seven of

⏹️ ▶️ John them are on this one five of them are on this one and one person is on this one and you can then follow them if you’re logged into your mason

⏹️ ▶️ John on a cat that’s how i’ve been building up my mastodon falls to try to make my mastodon timeline like my twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John one by following people the same people who i followed on twitter essentially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have been trying the same thing because i mean here’s a thing too it’s like this is another challenge been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having masons like okay suppose i get into it suppose people are moving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there in reasonable numbers suppose i figure out the ap situation those are all big supposes but will move

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on for now how do i find people like cause here’s the mean look i’ve i’ve created so many new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accounts on so many new social networks and old social networks over the last week or two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but then it’s like all right now what the next step is all right find people to follow and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i don’t want to start a whole new social network from scratch i want to follow people that i already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco follow i’ve been curating my list of a hundred and ninety seven people i follow on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for years like you know i want to follow most of them and yeah so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i do these tools and it finds i mean i think i found i ran the fetter finder thing last night i think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i found like fifteen people out of my two hundred people following so it’s it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not zero which is good but it’s not a lot and it’s it’s hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to know like how how to how to balance multiple social networks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like how am i here what am i supposed to post wear nobody likes a cross poster so you know i’m not going to just auto

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cross post everything so like what how do you do these things how do you find people and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really hard to start over to start from scratch you know when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a major social network of this style has not launched in quite a while so most of us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have never had to make this kind of move or have happened to make this kind of move recently like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re out of practice we don’t know how to find each other don’t know how to communicate if twitter goes offline tomorrow i mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and at this point nothing would surprise me in that department but like if they went off fine tomorrow we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be so confused we would have no idea where to find anybody and this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very hard thing to bootstrap so i don’t know it’s just there’s so many challenges to moving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this and i am a little encouraged by just how much momentum

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there is behind this now like there is so much momentum behind behind people leaving twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now and frankly i i’m you know spreading a lot of bets around

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with these you know i signed up on whatever that new one was i’m was to like whatever that new network is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everyone’s trying out like today i sign

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John up for that

⏹️ ▶️ John but that’s what i was getting out before speaking of momentum so just was talking about all this mastodon stuff right

⏹️ ▶️ John and then kind of out of nowhere starting like a day or two ago what i

⏹️ ▶️ John started to see in my twitter time line mostly with tons of people i follow saying

⏹️ ▶️ John hey everybody come over here and where they were going over to was

⏹️ ▶️ John hive social data the hive ap is an iphone app called hive they don’t have a website

⏹️ ▶️ John or anything like that i don’t know if it’s andrea but it’s certainly an ios is called hive and tons

⏹️ ▶️ John of people mostly in the gaming quadrant of the people that i follow on twitter they’re all like

⏹️ ▶️ John everybody come over to hive everyone’s going over to hive it was gamers and game adjacent

⏹️ ▶️ John artists right i’m out and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco what is hive

⏹️ ▶️ John looked like it looks kind of like twitter it’s like a nap and you follow people and whatever right but what what the hell

⏹️ ▶️ John is live and it was it was so sudden and such a like just

⏹️ ▶️ John and not just like the few random weird people that i follow but like big famous people in the gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John industry were like here’s my new hive come over to hive see me on hive like

⏹️ ▶️ John where did this come from i don’t have an answer to this as of as of monday november twenty

⏹️ ▶️ John first when we were recording this i don’t know how it came out of nowhere the explanation the only explanation i

⏹️ ▶️ John saw is one destiny youtube where i followed did a video about it and his explanation was

⏹️ ▶️ John well they you know there used to be like a gaming department a twitter they

⏹️ ▶️ John would like do promotional stuff with like with people in the games industry

⏹️ ▶️ John you know don’t they they were like a liaison for twitter for the gaming injuries if you wanted to do something game you related

⏹️ ▶️ John on twitter or have a twitter space or promote a tweet or whatever you would work with them right and elan of course fired

⏹️ ▶️ John them everybody that whole department has gone right and so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey they

⏹️ ▶️ John and so and so the people who used to communicate with them are like well it seems like we don’t there’s no

⏹️ ▶️ John more support for gaming at twitter therefore let’s go over to hive

⏹️ ▶️ John hive as far as i’ve been able to determine is a perfectly pleasant

⏹️ ▶️ John low little bit janky ios app written by two people oh well

⏹️ ▶️ John and i’m like okay that’s fine i don’t have anything else in arin by two people we make a bunch of aprn by one person

⏹️ ▶️ John right but how in the world like i almost feel bad for them how in the world did this

⏹️ ▶️ John giant critical mass of everyone go over to have happened for a app that is run by two people if you

⏹️ ▶️ John think mastodon dot social is going to have scaling problems at least they have like a team of people

⏹️ ▶️ John and like you know people doing content moderation this is two people for the entire service

⏹️ ▶️ John and the app and it’s not it’s not federated it’s not in the fever it’s not activity

⏹️ ▶️ John pub it’s not related to mastodon and it is literally just like kind of like a twitter clone but like

⏹️ ▶️ John a slightly different idea in the app and my first impression of the app was you know i did what

⏹️ ▶️ John i always do which is i gotta go get my username right so i rush i get the hiv vap which i didn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John installed install it i try to sign up with says you can sign up with apple id ah maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John with google and also you can sign up with the email and i always sign up with email and i tried to sign up with email for like

⏹️ ▶️ John ten minutes could not do it first it wouldn’t accept my password then i had to like

⏹️ ▶️ John manually tweaked the password as i had a bunch of different password rules so i couldn’t like you know use the password manager

⏹️ ▶️ John to do it had to make up a garbage password um and it just never it would never highlight

⏹️ ▶️ John the button that would let me hit next some people were saying there’s a secret rule that wasn’t listed that you had to have

⏹️ ▶️ John some special character they didn’t tell you that you had to have to get it but i think the server was just so so i signed up with apple id

⏹️ ▶️ John so anyway i got my username signed up with applied and then i went there and there’s a bunch of people that i knew and i

⏹️ ▶️ John followed them and they started following me and that’s when i started to look into this lesson what is this i have

⏹️ ▶️ John no idea like is there some venture capitalist that is behind hive that like paid a bunch of people to

⏹️ ▶️ John get the ball rolling on it but like and i think i just saw the post that they had a million people a two person

⏹️ ▶️ John company for an app and a service has a million

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco anyway i mean in all years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you know that was a tumbler for a while but we very quickly needed to hire a third person who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was support and support became community management as well and that department expanded

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way faster like it was for a long time it was me and david and then our support

⏹️ ▶️ Marco staff and that that’s how it stayed for a while

⏹️ ▶️ John you didn’t even have an iowa sap though you just had the service which i guess you had the website too but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they they had that iowa saps didn’t exist yet this was like two thousand seven

⏹️ ▶️ John so yeah so hive has an io that someone had to write but then there’s there’s a service behind it

⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere that the ios app talks to that runs this thing with the million people like and maybe you

⏹️ ▶️ John know i mean that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s very possible like that’s i can tell you like i mean i kind of do that for overcast like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s very possible and obviously a very different problem that’s that’s a possible thing to do but where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that will fall down scaling wise is not the you know the servers for a million people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s fine where it will fall on scaling wise is the people side the community

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John management

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the trust and safety abuse copyright stuff that’s where it’s tough

⏹️ ▶️ John because because the two people you just are just needed to do the i o s up in the service so who is

⏹️ ▶️ John handling who’s who’s watching the zoo who is going to handle the content

⏹️ ▶️ John that is going to flow into your service from a million people that is a non trivial

⏹️ ▶️ John problem anyway it’s kind of interesting that like you know this is an opportunity like

⏹️ ▶️ John twitter twitter as there is uncertainty surrounding twitter alright so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John an opportunity for for competitive services to potentially find their market find their

⏹️ ▶️ John niche right like maybe hive becomes the place that the gaming industry hangs out right

⏹️ ▶️ John and maybe some other app and you know it doesn’t have to be part of the fevers a part of mastodon or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever maybe there is happy to have their one little place in the same way like devi and art was a place like a website where

⏹️ ▶️ John artists hang out and there’s all sorts of live journal i think still exists but all sorts of websites and communities

⏹️ ▶️ John that exist on the internet for smaller subsets of sort of self selected you know

⏹️ ▶️ John communities or interest groups or whatever even as down to something as simple like the macrumors forums of the ars

⏹️ ▶️ John technical web forum back when you know every website had to have a web forum which was its own headache to deal with it a much

⏹️ ▶️ John smaller scale but it was it would select for people you know the arstechnica forum was filled with people who read are technica

⏹️ ▶️ John including me very self selected group a narrow interest small

⏹️ ▶️ John number of people headache to manage right and hive could end up

⏹️ ▶️ John being like that but anyway i was i was just surprised that the hive sort of came out of nowhere and had

⏹️ ▶️ John such incredible momentum from a source that i have not yet determined but it got me roped

⏹️ ▶️ John into it and it does have some interesting features like this you can set yourself up to say i’m available to answer

⏹️ ▶️ John questions and people can ask you questions and then you respond that’s just you know fancy dressing around

⏹️ ▶️ John the ability to tweet and reply essentially cried in twitter terms but it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John clever you know affordance for doing that within the app and you know and it’s filled with

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like macedon it’s filled with new people and new people are it’s fun when new people are arriving and they want

⏹️ ▶️ John to introduce themselves and people say hi and you know it’s it’s kind of all in that phrase so i feel like that’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John fun time you know before the nazis arrive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco true

Quick Twitter updates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we should very briefly talk specifically about twitter hopefully very very briefly i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted to point everyone to a couple of different websites which i thought were very funny

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and interesting the first was a post called the fraudulent king by a z and i was going to read

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some snippets from it but i’ll just leave it as an exercise for a listener to go read that but it is a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey delightful it is a delightful take down of a king elon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and and to some degree his disciples but he was very very well done and i thought it was funny and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the spirit of web three is going great we also have twitters going great which is a running list

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of all the different disasters that are happening over at twitter these days which is both hilarious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and sad and then some people have gotten really really concerned that twitter is about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get into a big fight with apple what’s what’s going on with that john

⏹️ ▶️ John well yes this is something that people who were inside twitter and are now outside twitter have been saying

⏹️ ▶️ John is like you might not realize this from the outside but we were constantly wrangling with apple view

⏹️ ▶️ John surprise surprise because apple would complain to us about stuff that’s on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John apple does have policies about what can be an apse that you sell on the app store and

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s those policies have always been tricky if your app is essentially a front end

⏹️ ▶️ John to a community where users post arbitrary content because you’re like look we just make the app or

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re not like when we give you the apt review like we don’t you know can

⏹️ ▶️ John you just review the ap and not review what people post and they’re like well if you made an app but everybody posts porn there we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to tell you you can’t have your rap because we don’t allow porn apps on the app store like well but we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not we don’t want porn or sometimes you’ll sneak porn in before we can remove it and apples like well

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to do better on that and there’s been lots of run around with various applications saying like that apple is

⏹️ ▶️ John not happy with the content moderation policies or mechanisms this implants therefore you can’t go in the app

⏹️ ▶️ John store and twitter itself over the years has apparently had lots of runnings with apple somewhere

⏹️ ▶️ John either apple itself bigwigs were at large or some random reviewer just like the rest of us and they

⏹️ ▶️ John get somewhere and ar viewer that says oh your a apple’s rejected because i launched twitter and i saw you know

⏹️ ▶️ John porn and as always have point but whatever whatever the complaint is i saw like hate speech or like

⏹️ ▶️ John ah you know something soliciting money for gambling whatever the policies of the day are on the app store

⏹️ ▶️ John and then twitter would have to work through that say okay well we’ll work with you apple because we’re another big company and we

⏹️ ▶️ John can actually get humans to communicate by upper view

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s even worse than i saw it it’s i searched for this and therefore was able to find

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it like the a reviewers will search for things like you know porn or whatever and then they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will dig the apt to say i search for this and was able to find it i shouldn’t even be able to find

⏹️ ▶️ John it i mean and obviously porn is on twitter like where people don’t know it’s not it twitter allows it and so obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John they worked out something with apple but that whole that whole relationship it is a relationship between two big

⏹️ ▶️ John companies that it has allowed twitter to remain on the app store and allowed twitter to ship updates

⏹️ ▶️ John if there is another running like that i have a feeling that in musk will not be as politically

⏹️ ▶️ John adept as the previous as the previous from her management when it comes to negotiating with apple about

⏹️ ▶️ John what apple wants to allow on the ap stars so nothing has happened related to this as far as i know it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just people leaving twitter saying hey we did this over the years i’m kind of wondering how

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s going to go down now that he won us in charge because one he’s pretty much gutted content moderation

⏹️ ▶️ John two even if he hadn’t done that he’s got a different idea about the rules and three his ability to

⏹️ ▶️ John negotiate with people is not proven to be particularly

⏹️ ▶️ John robust let’s say you know cause apple is apple’s big and

⏹️ ▶️ John they want to have their way and elon wants to have his way and they both have lots of money and they’re both pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John stubborn and so if that if that happens it’ll be interesting and related elon there was another story i don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John if we have the length of the shows i think it was on the verge yet an all hands meeting reportedly

⏹️ ▶️ John and basically said hey the layoffs are done we’re not firing any nor people and in fact we’re even hiring and

⏹️ ▶️ John i thought that was you know a perfect capper for his uh fairly

⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculous personnel decisions over his first month or so a running twitter now now they want they

⏹️ ▶️ John want to hire people because they’ve probably fired some people they shouldn’t have so they need to get a good people and he really

⏹️ ▶️ John wants people who are good at writing code because as i think our discussion today has established the biggest problem twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John faces is the ability to write good code oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco god

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey did you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see apparently he’s also demanding that everyone send him status reports every friday afternoon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like like so he’s actually every employee to email him every friday afternoon with what they’ve done for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the it’s so he wants like twenty seven hundred emails a week to arrive on friday that he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to somehow go through

⏹️ ▶️ John this i mean this is where i like when i was talking about like the companies that he has that must be filled with people who

⏹️ ▶️ John have understood how to sort of navigate his management style let’s say and i

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco feel like the move if i was there in

⏹️ ▶️ John if

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco i

⏹️ ▶️ John was there the move would totally be just send them a funny mean that’s all he wants to see

⏹️ ▶️ John he’d see it and he’d laugh and he’d be like hey i like this guy like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the move now see i’d be worried about like you don’t want you don’t want to stand out to him though in any way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like well if you want for some reason if you’re stuck working for this jerk you want to probably be under the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco radar a bit like you want to be able to show him if he ever asks here is what i do but you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never want to be noticeable to him but i

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like he wants to notice you i feel like he is going to go through all twenty seven hundred on the first day and like complain if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John statist isn’t good here you send him a funny man he’ll just chuckle and move to the next one and think that’s cool dude well

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco i don’t know that i mean it’s a risk i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think it’s a risk and it’s a risk i wouldn’t take if i wanted that job i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John mean

⏹️ ▶️ John just look at how he inter interacts with like the worst of like the you know the worst people

⏹️ ▶️ John on twitter many of whom he is reinstated after being kicked off for good reasons he loves talking to those guys

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey just yeah just

⏹️ ▶️ John he just he just eats it up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s it’s unbelievable to me i really shouldn’t be encouraging us to talk about this any more but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here we go it’s unbelievable to me how quickly and how readily

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparent it is that he is just not a good dude like not that i know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we kind of knew this already but i don’t know maybe maybe it’s cause i should only speak for myself but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i looked at i looked at tesla and i looked at spacex and i looked at starlink and and you know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all these different things with the exception of the boring company that he had done that like it looks like he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing good work like he tesla as a company certainly has pushed the world forward i think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s without question space acts from what little i understand has pushed the world world forward and yet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the more he the more time he spends a twitter the more i think that a he’s a garbage human

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and b all these companies succeeded in spite not because of him and it’s so hard to tell from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the outside like who really knows maybe i have this dead wrong but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now that he’s showing us like before we can say like you know if we heard like before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he was all over twitter if we would have heard from someone oh this guy is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know really hard to work for you think about and i know this is a tire comparison and not apt for so many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasons but think about you know what we think of steve jobs steve jobs is never on twitter so what we think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of steve jobs is informed solely by his public events and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stories we heard from people who worked with him and that’s a much smaller like exposure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco surface now we have all these idiot billionaires and celebrities and politicians

⏹️ ▶️ Marco making fools of themselves on twitter all the time for us to see right right there in the open and it reveals

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to be you know these you know jerks slash idiots in various ways that kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ruins the mystique of who they were before twitter we would never have known that like they weren’t they weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before social networking was a major thing they weren’t exposing their personalities in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these ways so with him like if it had it not been for him being so hooked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on twitter and and promoting himself there and being you know a kind of a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crap poster there like if not for that we would never have known that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this guy was this jerk we would just think like oh yeah we heard this little hard to work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sometimes it is weird things in the press but you know

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s also we would have heard the stories there are you know stories that we tended you know that are above and beyond

⏹️ ▶️ John anything we ever heard about steve jobs i think wasn’t his story where he was trying to solicit sexual favors from someone

⏹️ ▶️ John on a private jet and promised to buy them a horse if they did it like i think that was the on mass sorry i’m getting

⏹️ ▶️ John it wrong but like the there’s even just the stories that have leaked out of private

⏹️ ▶️ John things have put him in a category beyond even the worst of steve jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John which is you know denying his paternity of his daughter and being a terrible boss and being super

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible to some people who work for him right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah but but still i feel like not like in this era of all the celebrities and politicians

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and billionaires being on twitter like they are just constantly making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco asses of themselves and he is at the top of the list like if if he was never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on twitter i think he would be so much better off he would have a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much better reputation he would have far less drama to deal with he you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he wouldn’t he wouldn’t constantly step in it the way he does like i think twitter has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done a great disservice for him um and vice versa because you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he just you know he’s the kind of person who like having having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco less access between the public and him is good for him and instead he just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is ramping it up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just unbelievable how quickly and how

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how effectively and adeptly he has ruined his own reputation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and here again like i just don’t understand the the people that are still clinging to him

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like some sort of messiah or something that like oh he’s playing you know seventy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chess you’ll see you’ll see maybe possibly but golly i would be flabbergasted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if if he really is playing forty chess

⏹️ ▶️ John of the link from the verge i found this story is from outside from may of this year spacex were partly

⏹️ ▶️ John paid two hundred and fifty thousand lars to corrupt elon mus sexual misconduct the flight attendant claims he touched her in her properly

⏹️ ▶️ John and asked for more erotic massage um yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco those type of stories like

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah so and it’s kind of like you know this part of the entire problem of everything like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey oh well

⏹️ ▶️ John every powerful male sexually assaults people from time to time and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey well it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John totally fine to be right exactly i mean even if even view a hundred percent admit to it will still elect you president

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s fine

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey one

⏹️ ▶️ John assault and sadly enough people have that attitude that it continues to be a thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that we don’t even talk about and just goes beneath our notice and we spend our time talking about yeah but is he good for the company

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#askatp: Apps on smart TVs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all right let’s move along and let’s just go straight to some stp start starting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with dominic lamer dominic writes i’ve been using the built in apple aps especially airplay on my tv

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the last few years and i’m wondering why this is not something most people want or demand from their tv manufacturers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey working in the set top box industry i know first hand how each d m c e c is an interoperability nightmare i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey prefer having everything built into the t v for simplicity and tighter integration for example i’ll have to mess around with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey matching frame rates last year i decided to try the apple tv for k to see what i’m missing it’s snappier but other than that i didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel like it was worth the extra clutter in complexity i’d be curious to hear what you two ought to say about this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but to start i do have a semi modern lg tv we bought at the end of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey twenty nineteen and for a little while when i was when i still had the ten eighty apple tv

⏹️ ▶️ Casey connected to it i was often using the the tv

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps because especially for like disney plus i had no no fork input

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into my tv but eventually i got the fork apple tv you know the prior generation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the one that brought the new remote and it was like a breath of fresh air it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was like you know oh this is so much better because it’s it’s exactly that everything is snappier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s consistent way more consistent it just works better my tv

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i don’t have connected to ethane although i could have and the apple tv is connected to eth net so it’s more responsive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in that regard just everything is better and i also really really like that that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the apple tv has become basically the entire television to me i don’t have a tivo i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no longer have any sort of dvr that’s not run through the apple tv cause i use performer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sponsor channels the apple tv is the tv unless we’re playing the switch of the w and h

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i c c i have been and continue to be a h i c c unicorn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably because i only really have the apple tv connected to my tv and so i think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for my money especially now that it’s gotten cheaper it’s so much better than the tv apps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so much pepper and snappier and so much it’s just so much better

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in every measurable way that i would much prefer that over using the t i could live with just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the tv apps but i would very much prefer not to let’s start with marco who i think will probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have a similar answer to me and then john you can correct the two of us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah i mean i’ve like my my stupid samsung frame tv has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know fairly modern aps in it my old lg oled does not really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s modern ish but not not enough um but you know the samsung frame tv is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine with all this ads but i just don’t want to use them like i could if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i had to if there was no apple product in this category i would use the apps on my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tv the same way i used to use cable boxes like yeah i can use these things but i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just prefer the way the apple product works i think it is it is nicer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it fits it fits my my preferences and expectations better even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i hate to say this i even like the remote better because the samsung

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John is just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not bad but like you know i just like it better and you like if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these products didn’t exist i’d be fine i would i would live with the tv the same way i did before the apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tv existed but fortunately i don’t have to make that choice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey john what’s the right answer

⏹️ ▶️ John so there’s a couple things here one obviously is modularity you you’re probably going to keep

⏹️ ▶️ John a tv for a while a technology marches on and you can if you’re a sucker like us keep our place in the apple

⏹️ ▶️ John tv puck to get better and better performance so just having it as a separate concern and not welded together maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John in the beginning when you first get your tv you don’t care that much about it but over time it pays dividends

⏹️ ▶️ John to tv manufacturers most of them are heavily incentivized to spy on you like crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John if you don’t like having your television report back to somebody exactly what you’re watching for how long

⏹️ ▶️ John constantly as part of the way they make money off of the television that they sold you for just barely over how much it costs them

⏹️ ▶️ John to make it you might want to use a box attached to your t v and not let your t v on to the network so if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John concerned at all about privacy apple in particular but in general anything that is outside your tv that has a

⏹️ ▶️ John understandable profit understandable way to make money besides spying on you is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John a better move and finally especially with the apple tv the most recent one the

⏹️ ▶️ John the the grunt the the cpu and gpu power inside an apple tv is head

⏹️ ▶️ John and shoulders above what it is and inside any television televisions have dedicated chips to deal with the video

⏹️ ▶️ John signal processing but the thing they have left over to run your apps is so much whimper

⏹️ ▶️ John than than the hardware that in an apple tv and you know probably has less ram available

⏹️ ▶️ John to it and a slower storage and it shows in the apse right from the day you get them if you no matter

⏹️ ▶️ John how how much money you pay for tv and i just paid a lot of money for tv there is no

⏹️ ▶️ John built in television that has an interface as snappy as the apple tv because the harbor is just not

⏹️ ▶️ John as powerful right and and and that’s on day one of me buying like an extremely expensive

⏹️ ▶️ John television is just going to get worse over time right not that i think the apple tv is slow by any means

⏹️ ▶️ John but you know it’s the apples will keep getting faster and my tv is going to stay exactly the same right

⏹️ ▶️ John and as for me i see s it continues to be my enemy my most recent thing i

⏹️ ▶️ John had to watch a movie for a podcast i was doing we did an episode of the incomparable and watching the movie i have it

⏹️ ▶️ John on blue ray i finally got to use my you know my fancy blue ray player and something

⏹️ ▶️ John about the apple tv like if you have an apple and you have a position where you can see its little white light

⏹️ ▶️ John on the front of it you’ll see that the white light goes off like it goes to sleep when you’re not using it right

⏹️ ▶️ John but sometimes the white light comes on and it wakes up to do something is it doing

⏹️ ▶️ John ap updates why is it waking up i don’t know but through the match of hd my c c

⏹️ ▶️ John when it wakes up my tv slash receiver slash who knows what in my giant setup says oh

⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like you just powered on your apple tv you probably want me to change it i put the apple tv because you want to watch

⏹️ ▶️ John that now it did that while i was watching my blue ray i’m watching my blue ray and then the apple

⏹️ ▶️ John tv wakes up and my tv goes i got to change it back to the apple tv but then as it’s changing

⏹️ ▶️ John input the blue player says no i’m playing a movie and then it switches back and then they fight each other and then i have to

⏹️ ▶️ John i was so close to just unplugging the apple tv in the end i just had to manually put the apple tv to sleep so i

⏹️ ▶️ John stop leaving me alone i think unlike what this was called back in the day and my panasonic

⏹️ ▶️ John plasma was like smart beer or whatever something or other i don’t even think i can turn each tm i s

⏹️ ▶️ John off now i think

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it’s just on everywhere and

⏹️ ▶️ John i just have to deal with it not a good standard don’t like it works

⏹️ ▶️ John for me it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey works

⏹️ ▶️ John here it never connect more than one thing to your

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey television it works

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great that’s exactly that’s the secret

⏹️ ▶️ John and even even then i think it doesn’t work reliable all the time because you give some people who literally only have one thing on

⏹️ ▶️ John to their tv and it’s still sometimes does wonky stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well buy better tv john

#askatp: Use “public” Xfinity Wi-Fi?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nougat machine rights what are the ethics of using an extinct wifi hot spot out in public given the very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey high chances being served up to you by another customer leasing an extinct powered cable modem and using up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey their precious resources without their knowledge if you are a customer with your own modem or you or you lease

⏹️ ▶️ Casey theirs but have done the magic incantation to opt out of this quote unquote feature does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that affect the moral calculus i don’t know i mean if this is if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is a perk of being an explicit customer it might be the only perk of being an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey expedite customer so i guess run with it man i don’t know what do you think john

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah i’m like this is the way the expanding thing works everyone who’s paying for it understands that

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re you’re not you’re not doing anything for anybody by not using

⏹️ ▶️ John this feature if you need to use it use it like and other people are certainly going to use yours because

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s part of what they’re paying for it you are a collective of extent people who are all providing free

⏹️ ▶️ John wi fi hotspots to all the other extent customers that’s what you’re paying for use what

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re paid for i mean i think it’s a crappy experience all around it’s a crappy experience letting other people use

⏹️ ▶️ John your wife and it’s crappy experience using other peoples because it tends to be slow but that’s the system you’re in

⏹️ ▶️ John and if you’re stuck with it because you can’t get any better cable provider that’s another problem

⏹️ ▶️ John with the competitive landscape of telecom in america or lack thereof

#askatp: Will data storage run out?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i ask as we are generating increasingly more digital media every single day do you think the data storage would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could become a scarce resource how could this problem be avoided and what is the end game for digital hoarding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me the end game is i run out of space on my synology and and my synology i know that i mention

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my synology is is no longer going to be our nology will no longer be getting a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey software update starting very soon i forget exactly when so i think i am staring down the barrel of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey finally after nine years and having this thing running pretty much

⏹️ ▶️ Casey twenty four seven for nine years i think i’m finally staring down the barrel of having

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to replace it so that’s going to probably happen at some point next year or maybe santa will bring

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me something great who knows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the santa brings analogies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it depends on if you ask very nicely and how whether you’ve been a good boy or not this year

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway marco maybe santa isn’t bringing you conolly but do you think data storage problems will or data storage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will ever become scarce

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i don’t think so i mean i haven’t been following the developments enough recently in like hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco drive density and flash dens and everything like how fast we’re progressing there but it seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like hard drives are pretty giant like as and it seems like as long as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t care about speed then you can get effectively infinite storage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for not that much money um now you know there are certain things like you know like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know as um as chris asked like you know we are generating more stuff over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time like per person the digital footprint is getting larger and that’s largely due to mobile phone cameras

⏹️ ▶️ Marco um and that’s that’s going to continue to get better over time you know it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco highly competitive you know highly you know fast moving industry were like phone cameras are going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to keep shooting bigger higher resolution pictures we’re going to keep shooting more and more video clips

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and things like that so we are going to keep generating more data but i think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco storage is so vast i don’t think we’ve run out of it anytime soon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey john on an infinite time scale will we ever run out of storage it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a storage like moore’s law will eventually run out moore’s law is the you know the doubling of

⏹️ ▶️ John transistor density every eighteen months whatever ya yada ah but it’s talking about transistors

⏹️ ▶️ John but lots of people look at moore’s law and say well you know transistor

⏹️ ▶️ John or not we can’t keep making things smaller forever like there there is a limit to the smaller size of

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing that we are aware of that we can that can be manipulated right in this right so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the limit lurking out somewhere in the distance right storage mostly follows that same

⏹️ ▶️ John path ah the difference is that i feel like storage is it’s easier to move down

⏹️ ▶️ John that path slightly easier to move down that path and storage right because for for transistors in like cpus

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff and you may be thinking all transistors using memory too but just hear me out

⏹️ ▶️ John and transistors for sps and stuff those are delicate little things that have to be arranged

⏹️ ▶️ John just so so they can switch correctly and avoiding leakage turn and all the sorts of other things and

⏹️ ▶️ John right so it’s not so easy to keep making these smaller it’s very difficult to keep making them something smaller and smaller we’ve had to

⏹️ ▶️ John come up with new arrangements of the little parts in them so they’re not even shaped like they were back when they were a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John bigger um and that’s a really hard problem for storage you do have the problem of like

⏹️ ▶️ John how small the particle we can get but we’re not even close to that right but instead it’s the easier problem of

⏹️ ▶️ John i just need something to store something um and so far we’re using similar technology to

⏹️ ▶️ John seep used up as transistors and various things like that but there are lots of you know

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s lots of research and studies of how to store things with essentially without using transistors

⏹️ ▶️ John i think you’ve probably seen the stories in you know science journals or news articles over the past

⏹️ ▶️ John couple of decades of using dna to store data using bacteria using uses

⏹️ ▶️ John of organic things because he and they have you now it’s always a big headline story it’s like look look how much data we

⏹️ ▶️ John stored in this tiny little bit of organic matter right it’s incredibly efficient it’s way more efficient than transistors

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know the molecules that make up d and a are not the size of subatomic particles they’re they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John you know you can see them in a microscope right but they’re pretty darn small and they’re actually very densely

⏹️ ▶️ John packed and so i feel like where it’s going to be harder to travel

⏹️ ▶️ John down the the moore’s law path of cpu then it will be to travel down that path

⏹️ ▶️ John in storage just because i think when storage hits the wall of the transistors it has another route

⏹️ ▶️ John it could say well i don’t really need transistor to store stuff if i we could figure out how to store things in d n

⏹️ ▶️ John a or whatever bacteria or or other things like that maybe that is a viable route

⏹️ ▶️ John where it can where logic will get hung up on figuring out how to make the next shrink

⏹️ ▶️ John and storage will continue to progress so i’m i’m pretty optimistic that a

⏹️ ▶️ John storage will continue to progress and progress and as i’ve said in many shows in the past if most of the things we

⏹️ ▶️ John put in storage are things that are absorbed by our senses eventually we will reach the

⏹️ ▶️ John point of diminishing returns with a with at least two dimensional video and we just like we already have

⏹️ ▶️ John with audio and so our storage needs actually will not that they’ll cap out because we’ll always need more

⏹️ ▶️ John and more storage but i think the curve will bend a little bit as we start saturating a

⏹️ ▶️ John human sensory resolution so to speak

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thanks to our sponsors this week member ful collide and backblaze and thanks for our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco members support us directly you can join an slash join we will talk to you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next week

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ John now the show is over they didn’t even mean to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco begin because it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ John john didn’t do any research marco and casey wouldn’t let him because

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but you can find the chanel

⏹️ ▶️ John at a dp dot fm and if you’re into twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco c a s e y l i assess that’s k c s m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a r c a r m ant marco men

⏹️ ▶️ Marco s i r a c

⏹️ ▶️ John siracusa is accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ten


⏹️ ▶️ Casey so it is as previously mentioned thanksgiving week here in america and you know we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey should probably share some things that we’re thankful for and if one of you would like to start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you certainly can but i figured i would start to give you two some time to think about it and some springing ness on you

⏹️ ▶️ John totally are your springs on there like like someone’s moment of thanksgiving dinner one everyone who is at the dinner

⏹️ ▶️ John is not even yours not even your house you’re over your

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey friends house and the moment is

⏹️ ▶️ John all on to go around the table and say what we’re thankful for that’s you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yep that’s me right now so what am i thankful for obviously i need to pander but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i also mean it i am very incredibly thankful for our our our listeners

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and doubly so for our members but even if you can’t be a member i still i still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey love you and i am extremely thankful for all of you as i get ever older it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more and more clear to me or it’s always knew it but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it becomes more and more obvious and apparent that time is everyone’s most precious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey resource and especially as we’ve all kind of reset our priorities over the last couple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of years it is a big ask for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us to ask of all of you to spend you know two to three hours of your time with us each

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week or if you’re using a great podcast i like overcast maybe you know an hour and a half to two hours

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i don’t know depends on how fast and how fast you listen and how how how great the uh you know the smart

⏹️ ▶️ Casey speed is but nevertheless it is it is it is a lot to ask of you to spend two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to three hours with us every week and it really means a lot to all three of us that that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do that and this is whether or not you’re a member or anything else and you for any one who has pitched you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know the show to a friend of theirs yeah well it’s about nerdy stuff but they’re fun nerds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they are i don’t know how you would pitch our show but nevertheless i deeply agree we all of us deeply appreciate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that and if you are a member we deeply appreciate that as well if you’ve ever bought merch even if even if you bought merch almost

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ten years ago now and never again i still appreciate you so thank you for that and selfishly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m extremely thankful for myself and my family’s health somehow we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey still have not yet had covet enter the house i’m sure it is imminent it could be any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey day now declan actually had a little bit of a fever today and so far he has tested negative but for all i know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he he might be afflicted with it as we speak but so far so good but on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey grand scheme of things you know we are healthy we are all as vaccinated and is vaccinated as we can possibly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be at this time so i’m super thankful for that but since this is a nerdy show let’s talk about some nerdy stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m thankful for and then i’ll shut up and move on to one of you to um i’m really thankful for when stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually does just work and i’m going to be thankful i’m in a thankful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mood so i’m not going to talk about things that used to just work and don’t need more but the things that really do just work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in just some random smattering of things um wireguard the vpn that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i use really does just work a tail scale is also a very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very good former sponsor of us it’s the less fiddly version of wireguard and it is also

⏹️ ▶️ Casey excellent i use docker for a bunch of stuff i’ve spoken about on the show and for some things that i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey haven’t spoken about on the show if you know you know a docker is extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good and very useful obviously my sono system i’m still utterly in love with i

⏹️ ▶️ Casey brought up the synology earlier i couldn’t go through this this segment without mentioning plex so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here it is and of course you know i’m super thankful for that and as i mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey earlier channels especially once i went to the cable card version which i know did not win john over

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but losing the dvr and go or the physical d v r in going to a cable card base

⏹️ ▶️ Casey channel set up has really made watching tv a lot better in my in my house and my world so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey i know those are mostly with the exception of the listeners most and i guess health mostly and consequential

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but i’m still thankful for them and in their fun dirty things so i don’t know which one if one of you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wants to volunteer feel free otherwise i will put someone on the hot seat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i can go first second

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John john do you want to and you made me do it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re up all right so so setting aside everything that case said about how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco awesome our all of our members and listeners are because that is true and we’ve covered that you know recently too so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i appreciate all of you and you’re awesome and thank you for letting us do this ridiculous thing that people pay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us money for that’s amazing um in the tech world i would i’ll keep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it fairly short i am really thankful for the fricking mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the mac is back the mac had some really bad years and they appear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be over and right now the mac is in a really good place

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where there’s tons of different options available on the mac different sizes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different you know physical characteristics different performance characteristics and they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all really good there are great options for pretty much any needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you could have and the number of trade offs to get them is lower than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever like that’s again that’s why i’m still using a laptop as my desktop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though a technically better desktop exists than i could buy i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t even want it my laptop is great and it’s just like there’s so many like every every mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sell right now is great and macos is you know i have my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco design qualms with macos here and there but for the most part most of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the most egregious bugs and bad behaviours have been fixed so i’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just very happy with the mac and i’m i’m so happy that it’s been getting a lot of investment on apple side

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recently and and again even you know design quibbles aside it’s really in a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much better place than it was and that matters a lot to me because this is where i do the vast majority of my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computing both for work and pleasure and i just love the mac and i’m really happy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s in a good it’s a good place

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve stolen all the answers i’ll give them all to give the short person i have one you know

⏹️ ▶️ John i’ll go what you both said one heartfelt thing and one silly thing so the heartfelt

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is obviously you know i left my job this year i left my job by job to do this full time

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s been about seven and a half months i’ll probably mention this again when i come to a full year but seven and a half months

⏹️ ▶️ John so far so good and why it’s because of all you people who are listening again listening members or not

⏹️ ▶️ John buying my stupid chicken hat whatever it is that you’re doing to make this life possible for me

⏹️ ▶️ John so far so good seven and a half months in you know i will see how everything goes at tax time because

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s still the end of the year accounting to see how everything’s going but fingers crossed

⏹️ ▶️ John thank you very much for making this possible for me to do because it’s been

⏹️ ▶️ John you know it’s it’s it’s been a big change in my life and it’s been very scary and so far it’s going okay and the second

⏹️ ▶️ John much more frivolous thing is i’m thankful for my fancy tv even though the price has been reduced a thousand

⏹️ ▶️ John dollars since i bought it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco oh

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s so a thousand dollars

⏹️ ▶️ John i don’t care i was happy to spend that money to get the tv when i did because i am

⏹️ ▶️ John very happy with it you know fighting with h m i c c aside everything i watch in it i love

⏹️ ▶️ John my family doesn’t care but i think my tv is great and i think i made the right

⏹️ ▶️ John choice and i think all that waiting was right kind of like my mac pro here and even

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey though other

⏹️ ▶️ John people look at this person purchasing it doesn’t make any sense to them it makes sense to me and so i feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John i have you know if things continue to go well with this tv it will be like this well

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe not like this macro like my two thousand eight mac pro my plasma before it i bought the right

⏹️ ▶️ John tv at the right time for me i almost thought about putting it on my good products page because i have

⏹️ ▶️ John a page on my website where i like i think there’s a product that really you know people deserve to know about but honestly

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s more like my mac pro i shouldn’t really put it on that page because most people probably shouldn’t buy it but boy

⏹️ ▶️ John if you want a really nice t tv the sony i a ninety five k is a is a really nice t v it does all the things i thought

⏹️ ▶️ John it would do and it looks amazing i love it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey despite the fact that it doesn’t work for beans with hd miss fault that’s just the smile

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey is not the it’s not the television television faults

⏹️ ▶️ John of my frigging appletv keeps waking up and saying everybody i’m here i don’t know why i’m waking up and i’m up again

⏹️ ▶️ Casey happy thanksgiving everybody