catatp.fm Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

488: Pebbles on the Scale

HomePod Mini vs. the world, the M2 MacBook “Pro”, CarPlay’s ambitious plans, and the state of SwiftUI.

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Chapters

  1. The HomePod saga continues
  2. Follow-up: iPad RAM
  3. Follow-up: Educational discount
  4. M2 13” MacBook “Pro”
  5. Sponsor: Green Chef (code atp130)
  6. System Settings/Preferences
  7. Copy/pasting Photos adjustments
  8. Gaming and GPU architecture
  9. Ventura’s support of old Macs
  10. Sponsor: Memberful
  11. iPhone HRTF
  12. CarPlay
  13. Sponsor: Trade Coffee
  14. SwiftUI: The way forward?
  15. Ending theme
  16. John’s mouse
  17. Casey’s Verizon ad

The HomePod saga continues

⏹️ ▶️ so i have a minor homepod update oh did you

⏹️ ▶️ source a new to you big ass home pot or did you do a factores cause a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ suggested that hey just factory reset those suckers they’ll be good as new i have done that before i did it

⏹️ ▶️ i think about two months ago actually recently so i have done it before and it seemed

⏹️ ▶️ to last maybe a week or two before it reverted back to the old buggy behaviour

⏹️ ▶️ and so i think it was probably just coincidence or like you know some

⏹️ ▶️ other anyway and i have yet i have so far as yet not gone through

⏹️ ▶️ the route of trying to get replacement big home pods because my theory

⏹️ ▶️ is that the problems are partly you know my physical units having problems

⏹️ ▶️ and flaking out and dying but also partly i think there’s a major you know software neglect

⏹️ ▶️ going on and those old home pods were slow as crap to begin with and so clearly they were

⏹️ ▶️ like struggling to run the software they came with let alone whatever it’s been updated

⏹️ ▶️ to now so anyway i did as i mentioned i had briefly tried a bono

⏹️ ▶️ product it was kind of embarrassing because um i

⏹️ ▶️ started playing the playing the music from it and it was like okay well you know this thing it looks fantastic and

⏹️ ▶️ ah it sounds okay but it doesn’t sound

⏹️ ▶️ the way it should especially for its price sounds like small speakers

⏹️ ▶️ and i’m like just for comparison let me let me see so just for comparison i put next to

⏹️ ▶️ the expensive product a homepod mini and the homepod mini sounded

⏹️ ▶️ as good in most ways and better in some ways

⏹️ ▶️ i see the landscape now i now see what you know

⏹️ ▶️ those kind of products are for again they they look great but they are not

⏹️ ▶️ for sound and the homepod mini for you know how poorly it

⏹️ ▶️ fills a large room it actually does sound better than almost anything else that is

⏹️ ▶️ reasonably small and for this purpose i want it to be i need it to be reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ small because this is going like on my kitchen counter with other stuff that has to share the counter with it

⏹️ ▶️ and so i set up a stereo pair of homepod minis that i happen to have already

⏹️ ▶️ for various rooms in the house i have moved in there and so far it’s

⏹️ ▶️ fine it definitely is way faster to respond to things like touch

⏹️ ▶️ controls seat controls airplay sources being sent to it um syria

⏹️ ▶️ itself is no worse might even be slightly better in its response time

⏹️ ▶️ and so far the stereo pair of homepod mines has not broken itself so so

⏹️ ▶️ far it i kinda seems like maybe i’ll just deal with the homepod mines

⏹️ ▶️ until some kind of large homepod comes out again that will fill with the room better i wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ hold your breath on that i know my why can’t the rumor mill be be about all that

⏹️ ▶️ i haven’t heard anything from the room mill that’s credible about like new new bigger

⏹️ ▶️ homepod coming at some point but in certain areas especially if like

⏹️ ▶️ i you you care about the mid range of sound this is like you know how clear and distortion

⏹️ ▶️ free and energetic do vocals and say electric guitars sound

⏹️ ▶️ you know that that’s things that it’s surprisingly hard to get speakers to headphones that sound good

⏹️ ▶️ like really good and smooth and and undistorted in those ranges i don’t know why i’m not enough

⏹️ ▶️ of an engineer to know but there there must be some reason why that’s difficult and apple has

⏹️ ▶️ really nailed that in almost all of their recent audio products you know

⏹️ ▶️ even even the airpod pros these little tiny things that go in your ears

⏹️ ▶️ sound better than many other things that their their their size are even slightly larger

⏹️ ▶️ the airpod maxes even though i don’t like their comfort it doesn’t work for me but their sound

⏹️ ▶️ is amazing for what they are like it’s really really great and the airpod max is

⏹️ ▶️ one of the best sounding pairs i’ve ever heard and that’s that’s saying a lot i’ve heard lot a lot of really nice

⏹️ ▶️ headphones and that is up there with with you know some of the best ones but the speaker

⏹️ ▶️ market the like you know countertop self powered speaker with some kind of voice assistant ideally so you

⏹️ ▶️ could yell things at it from across the room homepod still the best and even the homepod

⏹️ ▶️ mini is better than most of what’s out there and that’s really saying

⏹️ ▶️ something because the home of many is fine but like you know compared to

⏹️ ▶️ like others speak like regular speakers that are not smart and self powered and stand alone and generally much

⏹️ ▶️ larger though by many is not super special but for it its size

⏹️ ▶️ it’s great and compared to its competitors it’s great the reason

⏹️ ▶️ i keep bringing it up here is partly because it’s going on in my life and its technical and therefore belongs to in the show

⏹️ ▶️ but also i want all of you to keep buying home pods so that apple will keep making better ones

⏹️ ▶️ so please go out there respond to the people apple please go out there buy a points

⏹️ ▶️ it costs less than some of the some of the dogs they’ve sold in the past like us go out there

⏹️ ▶️ and get home port of many and and yeah we’ll see we’ll see how this how this industry goes but far so

⏹️ ▶️ far they even the mini is better than most of what’s

⏹️ ▶️ out there you know this big home pot you’ve got like a product that apparently has like inherent

⏹️ ▶️ flaws that make it eventually die over time but you really like it but they don’t sell it

⏹️ ▶️ anymore what does that sound like to you sounds like you’re a spatula o cheese greater

⏹️ ▶️ cheese great cheese grater than the oxo cheese grater that they no longer make that has a fatal flaw that causes it to

⏹️ ▶️ crack over time but i really like it i having found one that’s better so i feel like this is an appropriately

⏹️ ▶️ marco scaled version of the cheese that you need what you need to do is

⏹️ ▶️ set up a persistent search like i have for the sox of cheese grater and every time one comes up for sale you just buy it

⏹️ ▶️ and put it into a storage facility in your house and then what you do is the factory we set your home pods you

⏹️ ▶️ set them up the second he turned flaky you chuck em in the garbage pulp and the other pair plug him in go from there

⏹️ ▶️ that that would i know this is partly a joke but that would act i would actually

⏹️ ▶️ reasonably consider that if i could get you know a decent amount of factory wrap ones for a reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ price if they were you know stand alone objects like your cheese graters

⏹️ ▶️ the problem is these are devices that exist in a software ecosystem and so if

⏹️ ▶️ as i suspect part of the problem is software no new hardware

⏹️ ▶️ is going to solve that they’re going to be just as flaky or rabi almost as flaky no matter what i

⏹️ ▶️ do and then if i happen to you know have a good week here and there maybe that’ll

⏹️ ▶️ be fine but like how much am i willing to tolerate for the occasional good week when so far the homepod

⏹️ ▶️ may granted it’s only i’ve only had this set up with these particular home pop minis for a few days

⏹️ ▶️ but that set up is better and so i’ll see how it goes over time i hope it’s better over

⏹️ ▶️ time and i hope apple doesn’t abandon that product line as well but we will see

⏹️ ▶️ it is funny to me that the homepod mini is what a hundred bucks yes something like that

⏹️ ▶️ and you are not kidding i my favorite usb c digital av multi

⏹️ ▶️ port adapter seventy bucks it’s so ridiculously

⏹️ ▶️ expensive gosh really for all of you know yes i know you can

⏹️ ▶️ get a little crappy echo whatever for like fifty bucks trust me

⏹️ ▶️ the homepod mini sounds way better than that we even we have one of the like the ball

⏹️ ▶️ shaped mid range echoes like like what used to be the only echo in that product line spot

⏹️ ▶️ like what’s like about a hundred bucks we have one of those the homepod mini

⏹️ ▶️ sounds better than it and two homepod mini for two hundred bucks sounds better

⏹️ ▶️ than lots of things that are much more than that again not as good as the big

⏹️ ▶️ homepod not and this is why it’s why i’m so sad but considering

⏹️ ▶️ what it is and what it costs the homepod many might be one of the

⏹️ ▶️ best values apple has produced in recent history like it’s it’s just it’s so good

⏹️ ▶️ compared to other things like it and for

⏹️ ▶️ for quote only a hundred bucks you know even though that is expensive for the crap home speaker market

⏹️ ▶️ this isn’t crap home speaker this is like a mid range home speaker and it’s it’s quite good at that i was

⏹️ ▶️ kind of surprised like i tried i tried two different boo things one

⏹️ ▶️ of them was about as good as a homepod full size not even

⏹️ ▶️ as good as it just about as good at it it costs more than a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ and it was like four times the size that just shows you how good

⏹️ ▶️ the first home pot was that it could be like a quarter of the size of that thing something

⏹️ ▶️ like an eight or six whatever it is of the price like way less money way less size

⏹️ ▶️ and sounded actually slightly better apple’s audio engineering is really good

⏹️ ▶️ recently they’ve they’ve been pumping out some really great speakers and headphones recently and

⏹️ ▶️ it’s great in the areas that i that they are in as much as i am like the

⏹️ ▶️ airpods and the areas that they started and then pulled out of

⏹️ ▶️ are just making me so sad i just go back in please because man apple speakers are

⏹️ ▶️ really really good just please make more of them it’s it’s tough cause you

⏹️ ▶️ are the one guy that once the big home pods and nobody else i remember when they came

⏹️ ▶️ out i was super interested in them because in principle it sounds like something i would really like cause i

⏹️ ▶️ hate silence i always have to have something on typically music but um

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t like it when the house is quiet which i know is probably the antithesis of john but

⏹️ ▶️ i always like to have music playing and i looked at the homepod when it first came out and what was it like three and fifty

⏹️ ▶️ bucks for the or something like that it was absurd how expensive it was and even even though i’ll

⏹️ ▶️ you know ostensibly do this for a living and you know buy apple stuff is buying

⏹️ ▶️ apple stuff is sort of kind of my job it’s actually marco’s job but it’s sort of kind of my job

⏹️ ▶️ and i couldn’t justify for three hundred and fifty bucks one let alone two of them and i’m not saying that like you’re

⏹️ ▶️ wrong to have bought them i’m just saying i think this is a product that in many ways is for

⏹️ ▶️ me but i couldn’t get over that price tag man it was just so expensive yeah and this is the kind

⏹️ ▶️ of thing like i’ve touched to it before i’m not going to go into great length here but if

⏹️ ▶️ you can somehow justify and afford and have the space for a stereo

⏹️ ▶️ pair of any of these things whether it’s homepod minnie’s big home pods you know

⏹️ ▶️ rest their souls or like amazon echoes most of these things support stereo pairs now

⏹️ ▶️ get the stereo pair even if like if there was if there’s a model for two hundred bucks and a model

⏹️ ▶️ for a hundred bucks you’re better off getting two of the hundred dollar ones and put them in a stereo pair with a bit of

⏹️ ▶️ space between them than getting the one two hundred dollar one when you have that amount of space between them and you can

⏹️ ▶️ actually create stereo separation physically not just relying on hey we’re going to have some drivers points

⏹️ ▶️ to the side and bounce things off walls and hope that sounds good like if you can actually have space between them it

⏹️ ▶️ sounds so much better even if each one has to be like a

⏹️ ▶️ smaller or lower end model you’re generally better off doing that and again like the home pa bennis in stereo

⏹️ ▶️ pair not bad not bad like not amazing but

⏹️ ▶️ for two hundred bucks amazing

Follow-up: iPad RAM

⏹️ ▶️ well let’s do some follow up i pet pros twenty eighteen edition

⏹️ ▶️ like my beloved one which i am really trying to resist throwing away

⏹️ ▶️ figuratively speaking and getting a new one but that’s neither nor there how much trampas of john does

⏹️ ▶️ not have eight gigs i was misled by one of the higher up google

⏹️ ▶️ results for trying to find out this information will put a link to the bogus link that the bogus

⏹️ ▶️ page that misled me balls put a link to the wikipedia page which i did check first i usually do but

⏹️ ▶️ they have like that side bar in wikipedia where they have the specs right and the side bar didn’t have the ram

⏹️ ▶️ unlike some other ipad pages so i just gave up and did a different google search

⏹️ ▶️ but the wikipedia page does say the answer in the body of the text of course

⏹️ ▶️ it would be nice if i could have just gone to the official apple side and looked it up and i probably cut off i had

⏹️ ▶️ dug way into like the text specs i’m sure it’s on something that apple dot com somewhere but

⏹️ ▶️ it certainly isn’t on the product page because they don’t like to list the ram anyway this is relevant because we were talking about

⏹️ ▶️ why only the m one ipads support stage manager

⏹️ ▶️ job you got it working on it all that practice and i

⏹️ ▶️ still almost fumbled it the first time um and i it was like okay well this one you know

⏹️ ▶️ this ipad air with sixty four gigs of storage it’ll run it without even using swap so

⏹️ ▶️ obviously it doesn’t require swap maybe requires ram and it’s like well it doesn’t require ram because that has eight gigs but

⏹️ ▶️ so does this old ipad but no the old ipad had either four gigs or six gigs of ram not eight so

⏹️ ▶️ the leading theory now you know that we kind of pooped last week is that it seems like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ the ramp because all of the ipads that support stage manager

⏹️ ▶️ have a gigs ram or more and the ones that don’t support it have less ram um there was a little

⏹️ ▶️ bit of stuff lying around the internet about these sort of apple internal developer mode to a

⏹️ ▶️ able stage manager on lesser ipads you know obviously that exist

⏹️ ▶️ is as the quick fitter you said and you know some of the famous apple like they tried it on the other ipads

⏹️ ▶️ and they found it unsatisfactory and again see last week’s episode about where apple can choose

⏹️ ▶️ to spend its money to try to should we try to get it to work on the old ipads or should we just you know plough bravely

⏹️ ▶️ forward and eventually it will work on all our future ipads so anyway our bad i ipad pro twenty eighteen

⏹️ ▶️ does not have a frame

Follow-up: Educational discount

⏹️ ▶️ a johnny fit on a journey even on a journey trying to get some cheap software what’s

⏹️ ▶️ the latest a lot of feedback from people about their experience using apple educational discounts and in particular

⏹️ ▶️ this software bundle that comes with a bunch of fancy apple pro applications for a very low

⏹️ ▶️ price some people said that they bought it and what they ended up getting was

⏹️ ▶️ like a pdf sent to them in the email and via email after they purchased that had a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ of promo codes that you would redeem and in which case you obviously you care mama on whatever applied to you wanted they’re

⏹️ ▶️ just promo codes you know they’re so that’s kind of weird that they come out a p d f but anyway a lot of people have that experience

⏹️ ▶️ other people said that if you buy with a mac the software comes pre installed on the mac and

⏹️ ▶️ it will be licensed to whatever apple id you first set up on the mac and that sounds weird to me especially

⏹️ ▶️ if they don’t warn you about that and apparently you can also buy this bundle

⏹️ ▶️ separately from a mac so you don’t have to you know it’s offered as the sort of the whatever they call

⏹️ ▶️ it to come on at the end of configuring your mac when you go through all the configuration pick the ram pick the storage it’s his head

⏹️ ▶️ you want to add this right but it’s also a separate product it’s called the pro apps bundle for education it is

⏹️ ▶️ two hundred dollars and it includes final cut pro logic pro motion compressor and main stage

⏹️ ▶️ um so if you do want to buy it separately that eliminates the possibility that they’re going to pre install

⏹️ ▶️ it on some mac or something in which case probably they’re sending new codes to redeem but

⏹️ ▶️ this is all moot because if you go to the apple educational store and we’ll actually put a link to it in the show so

⏹️ ▶️ i’m not sure how they confirm that you’re a student but i think anyone can get to the store page at the very top of the store

⏹️ ▶️ page it says save on a new mac or ipad with apple education pricing great i think i will and

⏹️ ▶️ then the subheading is available to current and newly accepted college

⏹️ ▶️ students and their parents as well as faculty staff and home school teachers bla bla bla

⏹️ ▶️ so it’s available to to students and their parents so i don’t need to involve my son in this at all i am a parent

⏹️ ▶️ of a newly accepted a college student i get the discount another thing though

⏹️ ▶️ you know i’ve been going through this thing oh discount it’ll be cheaper right these discounts do not

⏹️ ▶️ look like what they were back in the day and when i say back in the day i’m talking about when i pull

⏹️ ▶️ off the fairly amazing feat for which i feel like i am not adequately recognized of convincing

⏹️ ▶️ my parents convincing my parents to use my sister’s

⏹️ ▶️ college educational discount my sister is four years older than me she left for college just

⏹️ ▶️ as i was you know entering into high school right she’s off to college she gets an educational discount and i

⏹️ ▶️ convinced my parents hey you should buy a new mac from

⏹️ ▶️ the college like computer store using my sister’s discount

⏹️ ▶️ give that mac to me and they let her use or mac one twenty

⏹️ ▶️ eight k upgraded to a mac plus that we’d been using in the house and that’s what they did and so i got an

⏹️ ▶️ sse thirty right in the sse thirty i think like the the regular retail price starting price was like forty three hundred

⏹️ ▶️ dollars in nineteen eighty nine dollars or whatever to the mouth and that and be terrified right but the educational

⏹️ ▶️ discount it was like educational discount i think it was like twelve thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ fifteen hundred dollars off it was huge i think the educational discounts now are like oh you save a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ bucks on a mac buggery you save fifty bucks on a mac bar like it’s not what it used to be obviously the prices

⏹️ ▶️ aren’t what they used to be there now i’m curious did someone look that up yeah i me even when i was when i was like you know

⏹️ ▶️ in the starting in the mac market in the early two thousand i remember the educational discount being something like

⏹️ ▶️ fifteen per cent which is substantial when you’re looking at some of those larger you know higher end models

⏹️ ▶️ and and that was that was always like you know the first couple mac i bought i

⏹️ ▶️ was only able to buy because i was getting discounts like that i like it because that made a big difference for me

⏹️ ▶️ yet when i bought my first mac my my polly book i had errand by it because

⏹️ ▶️ she was a k twelfth teacher at the time and if memory serves we saved a like a hundred fifty

⏹️ ▶️ bucks on the mac and we did it during w w d c week and so it was

⏹️ ▶️ the back to school sale had started at that point which i don’t think it does during wwdc

⏹️ ▶️ week anymore anyways so back to school sales started so she ended up getting

⏹️ ▶️ a free ipod touch out of the deal and that was the first dies first back and first direst of ice that

⏹️ ▶️ we had in the house because they gave you an entire ipod touch and like a hundred fifty bucks off what was

⏹️ ▶️ one of the cheapest mac you could buy at the time like it was bananas and it is not that good anymore

⏹️ ▶️ yeah i should probably actually look to see if it’s even less than the friends and family discount because i have friends and family

⏹️ ▶️ discounts that i could get it man it’s not that far as the macbook air that i’m getting like who cares but i’m just curious whether discounts

⏹️ ▶️ would be i find did look it up so a four thousand three hundred and sixty nine dollars was the base

⏹️ ▶️ price for the se thirty one launch that is ten thousand two hundred ninety eight dollars in today’s

⏹️ ▶️ dollars you’ve been buying ten thousand dollar computer and by the way didn’t come with the keyboard you wanted to get

⏹️ ▶️ the apple stated keyboard that was let’s see like two hundred dollars in nineteen eighty nine which

⏹️ ▶️ was like a four hundred and seventy one duck can you imagine paying four hundred and seventy one dollar for a keyboard it was held

⏹️ ▶️ the floaty keyboard one fifty isn’t was going that much does how much i had magic keyboard line like

⏹️ ▶️ but that that holds the whole thing and it has all you know it’s like apple although

⏹️ ▶️ sure not over i bet you’re cute or last long yes the apple

⏹️ ▶️ red two probably outweighs it by a lot too and you could you could use the apple send it to defend all later but you couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ do that anyway so my plan now is i’m going to buy the pro app

⏹️ ▶️ bundle for education because that really is a pretty big discount it’s like half off more than half off maybe

⏹️ ▶️ even though i don’t really care about main stage and probably don’t care about compressor but i’ll

⏹️ ▶️ buy that for myself separately because i’m a parent and then just buy the mac for my son when

⏹️ ▶️ i can order that’s the other thing to fall upon last week it’s like oh going to get the i’ll order the new m macfie

⏹️ ▶️ on friday and marco was like i don’t think it’s on sale on friday i think it’s just the the one with the fan in it didn’t yeah sure

⏹️ ▶️ enough it was it was the macbook thirteen inch macbook pro with an m two in it which i did not want and

⏹️ ▶️ i did not order and i think the m to mclagan is going to go on sale what next month

⏹️ ▶️ july who knows

M2 13” MacBook “Pro”

⏹️ ▶️ i am so glad first of all to be right because you know everyone looks being right i’m so glad though

⏹️ ▶️ that all the reviews are basically panning that computer saying

⏹️ ▶️ like look them to is amazing but why are you shipping it in this ancient enclosure with these

⏹️ ▶️ ancient ports and the ancient touch bar and omg say all the reviews basically say

⏹️ ▶️ you shouldn’t buy this just wait for the more but the good the good thing of the reviews

⏹️ ▶️ say i feel like it’s kind of like the people who like the mac mini are you with the home bots like look if you really love the touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ better get it while you can because you know it’s only gonna be around for the next seven years as tim

⏹️ ▶️ cook continues to sell the same computer for seven years but anyway this is probably the last one right

⏹️ ▶️ like it is gone from every other newer model so you know if you like the touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ that’s the reason to buy this because you can’t get the touch bar anywhere else it’s only going to be on this model we assume

⏹️ ▶️ and no gun tim cook may sell this model for another five years but we’ll say just this model makes

⏹️ ▶️ me so angry and what mode i don’t give me this artist don’t get me started i will fight you over who is

⏹️ ▶️ more angry about this stupid computer because i am so angry what makes me angriest about

⏹️ ▶️ it is not the touch bar you would expect based on my past here you would expect i would be super mad that their

⏹️ ▶️ still shocking touch where i’m not what makes me anxious about this computer is how many people

⏹️ ▶️ buy it because they are swayed by the marketing of the name pro when they

⏹️ ▶️ would actually be better served by the air that’s what drive me nuts like cause i’ve

⏹️ ▶️ so many people buy this computer because they think oh well i’m a pro i’m i’m going to run

⏹️ ▶️ you know i’m going to be editing podcast therefore i’m a pro it’s like no you don’t you don’t understand you

⏹️ ▶️ don’t need it like this will benefit you nothing at all and it will and you’re missing out on these other good things

⏹️ ▶️ with the air like that’s what bugs me about it is like the people who buy it mostly are buying

⏹️ ▶️ it because of a marketing benefit that they perceive that’s not actually

⏹️ ▶️ there at the expense of things they actually would enjoy more about the air that’s

⏹️ ▶️ why it bugs me so much i don’t know that’s a pretty narrow definition of people i’m not sure anybody

⏹️ ▶️ care both cares enough about the pro name to be attracted to this and also doesn’t know that you know doesn’t know

⏹️ ▶️ what the deal is with his computer john how quickly you forget what corporate buying looks like oh these are

⏹️ ▶️ professionals i must get the pro what’s the cheapest pro out here we go that looks fancy

⏹️ ▶️ this one’s enterprise ready cause it says pro we’re an enterprise we’re pros we need this computer the other

⏹️ ▶️ the other thing that is that you know if you can if you want a touch bar that’s probably the last one this is i am assuming

⏹️ ▶️ the last apple laptop that will have the old design in terms

⏹️ ▶️ of the shape of the case and you may be thinking what do you mean shape of the case it’s just one of these rectangular ones it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ a shape at all it is so when they redid the fourteen inch and the sixteen inch whatever

⏹️ ▶️ the new ones with the little round feet and everything that’s the new design this is the last of the

⏹️ ▶️ old design which had kind of a long taper and then a sharp edge on the

⏹️ ▶️ ends that you know all of apple’s aptos are shaped like this for many many years and this is the last one and

⏹️ ▶️ i have to say this design you know whatever you want to call it the johnny ives special i’m not sure

⏹️ ▶️ how much he was involved but we had always attributed this is unto him the one with you know just the u s b c shaped holes on

⏹️ ▶️ the sides no magsafe no hd mi no so and so forth the shape of that

⏹️ ▶️ computer is more attractive than the shape of the current computers ah that

⏹️ ▶️ doesn’t make it a better computer but if you really want to get the last of this design you know

⏹️ ▶️ there they’ll all be the more utilitarian looking design once this one goes

⏹️ ▶️ away so yeah if you if you want to get the last of a bunch of extremely

⏹️ ▶️ questionably valuable attributes like the touch bar the lack of

⏹️ ▶️ ports and the shape although i have like i think the shape is more attractive but that’s just you know

⏹️ ▶️ it’s kind of a blessing and a curse every time you see the more attractive shape yeah but you weren’t useful where was your este

⏹️ ▶️ slot where was your magsafe this computer makes me so irrationally

⏹️ ▶️ angry like it is in service of no one except apple and i guess the three people that like

⏹️ ▶️ the touch bar is it is not useful it is old and nobody should be buying this

⏹️ ▶️ thing i mean i know it’s not old on the inside but like the design is old living the only u

⏹️ ▶️ s b c lifestyle is no fun like it’s doable but it’s no fun if you’re going to get a pro

⏹️ ▶️ get a fourteen inch macbook pro or like marco was saying most people can probably just

⏹️ ▶️ get an air and they will be fine and at least the air has magsafe like this is such a stupid fricking

⏹️ ▶️ computer and it makes me so unreasonably and irrationally angry that it exists i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ know why it upsets me so much but it gets me so mad that this is still a thing like

⏹️ ▶️ just kill it kill it from the line up it is in service of no one it is not it is not good for

⏹️ ▶️ anybody all people are going to do is buy it and be disappointed like just now at least

⏹️ ▶️ with the map of adorable which was a piece of garbage when it was brand new and i loved that thing even though it a was a piece of

⏹️ ▶️ garbage it was good at being thin and light it was good at nothing else but it was very good

⏹️ ▶️ at being thin and light and frustrating you over having only one port it was good at those things

⏹️ ▶️ this is good at nothing it makes me so mad as marco said

⏹️ ▶️ in past episodes we don’t actually know the yet until we get the m two macbook airs and con

⏹️ ▶️ stress test them because the stress testing may be the m two macbook air throttle thermal throttles more

⏹️ ▶️ than the old one did in which case the pro would be better for sustained performance which is what apple said about it in the

⏹️ ▶️ the presentation or if you want sustained performance get this one right were they hinting at the fact the m two

⏹️ ▶️ throttle more or did they just say that for the hell of it and the second thing is the m to

⏹️ ▶️ macpro has a bigger battery how much every difference does it make a battery life we won’t know until

⏹️ ▶️ we get the m to macbook and people test the battery life on it so it is possible that the

⏹️ ▶️ function this serves is shoring up some deficiencies in the m to mac boker that didn’t exist

⏹️ ▶️ in the m one macro are but we don’t know that yet

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System Settings/Preferences

⏹️ ▶️ tell me about system settings

⏹️ ▶️ and system preferences bard reardon actually tried taking system preferences from

⏹️ ▶️ macos twelve and putting it on ventura like the application i mean the little

⏹️ ▶️ the little icon you can do that yeah i in think there’s an interesting thing about that

⏹️ ▶️ i got to second but anyway but if you do that a system preferences runs just fine on inventor and everything

⏹️ ▶️ works on it he says you could even have them both open at the same time

⏹️ ▶️ and changing setting in one updates in the other that’s tennis i mean i mean it makes perfect sense

⏹️ ▶️ because like that’s just a gooey like the it’s a goody wrapper for underlying functionality and from

⏹️ ▶️ monterey to ventura the underlying functionality has not changed so much that

⏹️ ▶️ you know the old one won’t work any more like the new the new system settings it’s a new gooey it’s a new gooey

⏹️ ▶️ wrapper but it’s not like everything underneath that has been ripped out and replaced it’s just the gooey wrapper over it so

⏹️ ▶️ it makes sense that they would both work obviously that’s not going to hold true over the long term because

⏹️ ▶️ things do change under the covers and the guy has to be updated to talk to different sub systems

⏹️ ▶️ or whatever but apparently right now it does work in both and what i was going to say about

⏹️ ▶️ copying it right you can take you know system preferences for monterey and just grab

⏹️ ▶️ it and make a copy of it and then just put it over on your you know on your venture mac but what you

⏹️ ▶️ can’t do with it on any recent mac on a mac running venture or monterey you can’t put it

⏹️ ▶️ in the same place as system settings because system settings i believe is probably like under

⏹️ ▶️ system library core services something or other right it’s in the read only snapshot

⏹️ ▶️ of the of the system volume that boots the os i think we talked about this many many shows ago but

⏹️ ▶️ modern versions of macos boot from a read only snapshot of a cryptographically

⏹️ ▶️ sealed volume so it can be assured that nothing can modify the running operating system there are parts

⏹️ ▶️ of the operating system that are outside that read only snap shop because they have to be written and they want to be updated you

⏹️ ▶️ know more easily without rebooting and stuff like that but i think system preference is not one of those things i think it

⏹️ ▶️ is part of the u s and so you can’t put system preferences in the same directory you may be thinking

⏹️ ▶️ who cares where i put it well i’ll just put it on the application soldier i’ll put it on my desktop and i don’t care where it is but

⏹️ ▶️ ventura adds a new security feature that does not allow system

⏹️ ▶️ applications to be run from a play any place other than where they’re supposed to be

⏹️ ▶️ you know this is like a malware type of thing that says hey system settings shouldn’t be

⏹️ ▶️ out there like if you know as if malware could somehow extract system settings from the redone volume

⏹️ ▶️ and like modify the binary and then run it again because you may have like a binary that has some kind of privilege or use as

⏹️ ▶️ a private api or whatever if you could modify that binary you know some malware can find a way to exploit

⏹️ ▶️ the system by like modifying the executable of some part of the u s but

⏹️ ▶️ you can’t modify it when it’s on a read only snapshot so you’d have to copy it off of the read only snapshot then

⏹️ ▶️ modify it but then you can’t run it any more and this is part of a larger framework i figure what it’s called i think i put a

⏹️ ▶️ link later in the show notes about it what is it called it a m f i something like that

⏹️ ▶️ oh god i’ll i’ll find it and like it somewhere but anyway it’s a generic system for putting more

⏹️ ▶️ constraints on executables they run or are more than the constraints you can put on it is this executable can only run from

⏹️ ▶️ this directory that’s really cool

Copy/pasting Photos adjustments

⏹️ ▶️ john tell me about copying and pasting edits and adjustments and things like that and photos

⏹️ ▶️ i was excited about the newly announced feature for photos

⏹️ ▶️ for apple’s photo system where you can take an adjustment kind of like a light room and then apply a to a bunch of photos

⏹️ ▶️ at once and that feature was listed on the ios features page on the ipad a

⏹️ ▶️ futures page but i couldn’t find it on the mac photos page so i wondered is this not coming to the mac

⏹️ ▶️ well first of all turns out it is on that page it’s just farther down the night gone i found the photos what i thought was the photo

⏹️ ▶️ section that was talking about the shared family photo library thing ah but that wasn’t the only section

⏹️ ▶️ about photos so it is coming to the mac version of photos which is good but second a feature

⏹️ ▶️ very much like this exists in the current version of mac photos ah but you may

⏹️ ▶️ not know about it in fact a lot of people reported that this existed and i said where is that menu item

⏹️ ▶️ lunch photos and i saw it i’m like why is it always disabled for me the menu item is copy adjustments and paste

⏹️ ▶️ adjustments and like well it’s right there in the menu how have i never seen this why have i never used them more importantly

⏹️ ▶️ why is it always grayed out how come i can’t copy adjustments so i went i would like it edit a picture

⏹️ ▶️ i’d make adjustments and then and then i’d you know go back to the main screen where all the photos

⏹️ ▶️ are i’d click the photo and i’d say copy adjustments but now it’s great out like maybe you have to crop it

⏹️ ▶️ so i’d crop it go back to the main screen try to copy just ments like no it’s still great out what does it want me to do i

⏹️ ▶️ made so many adjustments turns out you can only copy adjustments when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ in the edit mode i have no idea why you have to literally be in the edit

⏹️ ▶️ mode so you edited you go into the time where you get all the sliders in the ring and said then you can copy adjustments

⏹️ ▶️ but from any other view that even if it’s like zoom full screen if it’s the little tile mode if you’re looking at

⏹️ ▶️ the library looking at you cannot copy adjustments doesn’t make any sense all right so that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ for silly thing the second thing is you can only paste adjustments when you are

⏹️ ▶️ in the edit mode on a photo which means you can only apply the adjustments to one photo at a time so

⏹️ ▶️ that’s why they’re touting this feature oh now it works sanely you i’m assuming

⏹️ ▶️ copy adjustments from other views and then paste them into multiple foes at the same

⏹️ ▶️ time instead of having to go and do a mode copy adjustments go out of the to go into a mode another picture pace

⏹️ ▶️ adjustments i still maintain that the the mac photos app

⏹️ ▶️ seems to have been designed by people who never used the mac photos app can you

⏹️ ▶️ imagine like you can select an item like there’s so much you are to select a photo and it

⏹️ ▶️ knows which photos or have adjustments because they i think they put a little badge on the thumbnail showing like little lines with

⏹️ ▶️ sliders or whatever it knows that there are adjustments there and there’s that menu item in the image menu saying copy

⏹️ ▶️ adjustments like no you can’t use it unless you come to a not it does not make any sense

⏹️ ▶️ you know how apple came up at the pro workflows team or whatever it is where allegedly the they

⏹️ ▶️ brought people like actual professionals from lake hollywood and in places and like you know

⏹️ ▶️ music professionals and brought them in house either hired them or just asked them to do their work and

⏹️ ▶️ you know at apple so they could understand what they’re doing a little bit better i feel like we need

⏹️ ▶️ to have like adopt an apple designer day or something where you have somebody

⏹️ ▶️ from apple come into your home no no tim susie whatever your name may be

⏹️ ▶️ come into the home why don’t i show you exactly how i use the home app and

⏹️ ▶️ why it is a pile of sheets like let me show you exactly

⏹️ ▶️ what i’m talking about it is rental home up you got what you want and i know okay maybe that wasn’t the best example

⏹️ ▶️ but you know what i’m saying like oh i would like to edit six photos in the exact same way how

⏹️ ▶️ would you do that oh look there’s no way to do that right

⏹️ ▶️ now i feel like sometimes apple just lives in this fantasy world where

⏹️ ▶️ everything is always their stuff they’re they’re on these phenomenally fast internet connections

⏹️ ▶️ that are six feet from the home from the home office like i’m mostly

⏹️ ▶️ snacking but i kind of wonder if you know they they really need to have somebody

⏹️ ▶️ adopt designers or something and just be like like if this is how actual people

⏹️ ▶️ use your software like real honest to goodness actual people not not you not you folks

⏹️ ▶️ like actual people that use it in the real world in mixed environments you know

⏹️ ▶️ and i just don’t think that they have the awareness that they should in that regard i would just take someone from the photos team and

⏹️ ▶️ i’d give them like a hundred photos and i would say these photos are taken in each each one of these photos

⏹️ ▶️ is taken in one of seven locations use the info pain to set up use whatever you want

⏹️ ▶️ use any features this application to set the location for these photos but they’re not in any order

⏹️ ▶️ so you can’t do them in batches so you have to do them one at a time right so you click on a photo then you go

⏹️ ▶️ to the info pane you type in the address and i’d give them the ten address here the ten address and as you go through

⏹️ ▶️ each or i’ll tell you which one is which address and by like the fifteenth one they’d be like huh

⏹️ ▶️ there’s only ten addresses and they all begin with separate letters but i have to type out the whole address every time is

⏹️ ▶️ suboptimal and half the time when i’m trying to type in the address it deselect the text field

⏹️ ▶️ and is no longer focused in my characters going to nowhere and i have to click it again and after they’ve done a hundred of those

⏹️ ▶️ i would say how do you feel now about your location setting feature in this application like does it

⏹️ ▶️ does it help you in any way whatsoever what have we learned today yeah cause it’s

⏹️ ▶️ it’s really just you know very hostile i need to go back and re record that sex about the home ap

⏹️ ▶️ what i should have said and hey you d v d is reminded me of the chat i should have used the music app as my example because

⏹️ ▶️ all my great google moogle is that thing a pile of turds oh it is so bad i hate it

⏹️ ▶️ so much but that’s okay

Gaming and GPU architecture

⏹️ ▶️ ah speaking of things that are piloted hey john tell me about gaming on the mac this is something that

⏹️ ▶️ i think it was in the keynote even right federici was oh no he was on he was on a talk show

⏹️ ▶️ right it was talk show live on which we linked last weekend we linked to gaining go federici was touting

⏹️ ▶️ as part of his like let’s talk about gaming on the mac the uniformity of the graphics

⏹️ ▶️ architecture across mac ipad and the iphone saying you know hey this we have

⏹️ ▶️ a great solution for developers if you develop your application using your game using our fancy

⏹️ ▶️ graphics apis you basically get all these platforms for free because they all use the same game you know

⏹️ ▶️ that the max are on apple silicon have the same jeep use and metal is everywhere so on and so forth so yeah

⏹️ ▶️ it might be weird to use our apps but pairs are actually really good and if you do that work once you get access

⏹️ ▶️ to all these apple platforms isn’t that great and when he said that pitch

⏹️ ▶️ obviously what i was thinking of whatever was whatever i was thinking of right i was thinking of

⏹️ ▶️ the mac pro like what does this mean for triple

⏹️ ▶️ a gaming and the thing we’ve talked about so much is like the mac pro how much deep

⏹️ ▶️ u is going to have in it is it going to support third party deep use making this

⏹️ ▶️ pitch makes me think either the mac pro is not part of the gaming pitch which kind of makes sense

⏹️ ▶️ because who’s going to buy a mac pro to play games i mean what kind of person would do that

⏹️ ▶️ or this is a hint in the direction of the market was always saying is that the new mac pro

⏹️ ▶️ will absolutely not support third party video cards because you can’t make this pitch about unified gaming architecture

⏹️ ▶️ and then ship a mac pro and say oh by the way you can put a m d and i guess and is not going to happen

⏹️ ▶️ but you can put these amd graphics cards in there that’s not a unified graphics architecture the whole point of

⏹️ ▶️ this is they all use these apple jeep used with the features that apple jeep used and apple rubs their jeep uses

⏹️ ▶️ like across the whole system so i just thought that was interesting and it puts you know one or

⏹️ ▶️ two more pebbles on the scales saying new mac pro does not support third party gives at all

⏹️ ▶️ yes i just don’t see how anything is point in that direction

⏹️ ▶️ because so much of the apple silicon architecture

⏹️ ▶️ is is really looking like yeah there’s there’s not going to be there jeeps like we’ll be lucky

⏹️ ▶️ to get expandable g p s on cards or something like that even that i think is

⏹️ ▶️ in question for the for the new mac pro even then i wouldn’t assume we will get

⏹️ ▶️ um but third party gps i think are even a

⏹️ ▶️ greater step past that of unlikely hood i think we’re just we’re not going to see

⏹️ ▶️ that no part of the architecture points to that at all or not i mean this this statement would make

⏹️ ▶️ it say that potentially is the thing that apple wasn’t going to support but if you put in slots third

⏹️ ▶️ parties can sell a card for it and third parties will make a driver for it and like apple can’t really control that you know

⏹️ ▶️ well can apple silicon even support gpu drivers i mean it already

⏹️ ▶️ doesn’t support e g p us yeah i don’t know i mean i think i can support gp drivers we’ll see we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ see what they do there like the reason i would know a reaches but the reason it is coming up is because it seems

⏹️ ▶️ like you won’t be able to match the g gpu grunt that you can fit in a twenty nineteen mac

⏹️ ▶️ pro and by any stretch of the imagination with just the gpus that are

⏹️ ▶️ integrated into any kind of you know mac pro system on a chip right just because

⏹️ ▶️ you can put more than one of them into the main but four you can put four very big very hot

⏹️ ▶️ jeep us inside twenty nineteen mac pro you can’t match that with monica you just can’t right

⏹️ ▶️ and so it’s either apple doesn’t care that you can’t match it so what tough luck who cares because the benchmarks of the applications

⏹️ ▶️ that we care about are actually faster without it or that apple has some kind of you know

⏹️ ▶️ external jeep us tion which could be an apple jeep you on a card where the apple sells you for them for

⏹️ ▶️ the price of a few cars or it could just be no jeep you supported all for the slots and

⏹️ ▶️ slots are just there or something else or it could be no slots anyway see many months of past episodes

⏹️ ▶️ yet given that the apple silicon architectures so intimately about

⏹️ ▶️ unified memory shared between the gp and the main cpu i’m not saying it’s

⏹️ ▶️ impossible i mean it’s certainly possible but i would be very surprised if any sort of external

⏹️ ▶️ g p was supported anything is possible but i would be very very surprised

Ventura’s support of old Macs

⏹️ ▶️ all right so maces mentira has drummed has dumped dropped

⏹️ ▶️ and dumped at the same time apparently dumped is that a whole bunch of of hardware

⏹️ ▶️ and i will go through the list as per mister macintosh it has dropped the twenty

⏹️ ▶️ fifteen through sixteen macpro the fifteen through seventeen macbook air the twenty sixteen

⏹️ ▶️ a twelve inch macbook that’s too bad the twenty fourteen mac minnie the twenty thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ mac pro and the twenty fifteen imac all no soup for

⏹️ ▶️ you so sorry yes christina warren says that the most egregious one that they dropped and

⏹️ ▶️ i disagree with us but it is funny the most egregious one they dropped is the twenty thirteen mac pro that they sold

⏹️ ▶️ until december twenty nineteen that they should have stopped selling it in twenty seventeen

⏹️ ▶️ you could have active apple care and no updates so if you if you bought it

⏹️ ▶️ if you were one of the poorest suckers who bought a trashcan mac pro in december twenty

⏹️ ▶️ nineteen your apple care is still good and you can’t get any more or less updates but i mean

⏹️ ▶️ that computer was you know it’s a twenty thirteen computer that basically never changed aside

⏹️ ▶️ from like some different configuration options right so maybe they’d read the gps once

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t remember nope they sure didn’t they just dropped below in configurations oh yeah there you go that’s right

⏹️ ▶️ when was the uh was it connected live that you presented stephen with the with the

⏹️ ▶️ mac pro what year was it was our show it was our show yeah that was the last that was twenty nineteen

⏹️ ▶️ was it twenty nineteen there you go it was still for a i got it i got it from apple

⏹️ ▶️ the computer the computer was a joke gift on a live podcast i know i know i’m just saying

⏹️ ▶️ though that that is an example if you got applecare for first even then he

⏹️ ▶️ is that guy he is the one i did not how cheap how cheap are you

⏹️ ▶️ yeah i actually kind of like one of those from my a museum but i was never going to pay

⏹️ ▶️ the prices they were still going for it anyway dropping support for these i feel like the one that probably hurts

⏹️ ▶️ the most maybe surprisingly are the the macbook pros the macbook pro

⏹️ ▶️ mac beer maybe like a twenty sixteen macbook pro doesn’t feel

⏹️ ▶️ so old that it shouldn’t be getting os updates i know twenty sixteen is like a long time ago but just like because

⏹️ ▶️ the macbooks didn’t change for so long and there was that dark time and you’re like well i have one of the you know

⏹️ ▶️ isn’t the twenty sixteen theme they fix the keyboard i forget twenty nineteen was to fix

⏹️ ▶️ the keyboard anyway just because so many people have laptops right and people

⏹️ ▶️ are used to mac os supporting mac pretty far back in time but the obviously

⏹️ ▶️ the apple silken transition i think has hastened the demise of a lot of these computers

⏹️ ▶️ just because kind of like the thirty two to sixty four bit thing drop low

⏹️ ▶️ supports like you just want to get on the other side of this sort of discontinuity

⏹️ ▶️ and so yeah this you know these older macs are having support dropped that is a thing that

⏹️ ▶️ usually routinely happens i just think we’ve been in a and we were in a period for a while where

⏹️ ▶️ mace wasn’t dropping a lot of old hardware i think we’re still in a period where ios isn’t dropping

⏹️ ▶️ a lot of old harry what does a sixteen drop so sixteen as is the first versions drop anything

⏹️ ▶️ since fourteen fifteen both didn’t drop anything sixteen

⏹️ ▶️ is the first one that’s dropped things in three releases and it’s dropping everything up through the

⏹️ ▶️ seven so the the eight the iphone eight and above is supported

⏹️ ▶️ yeah so sorry for all you trash can owners and sorry for all the people who’ve got a not

⏹️ ▶️ so old intel max ten drop but architecture transits will do that to you

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iPhone HRTF

⏹️ ▶️ this is an example of something that i

⏹️ ▶️ swear was mentioned in either the keynote of the state of the union but if you asked me to find where specifically it was i would

⏹️ ▶️ come up blank but apparently the iphone is creating head related transfer

⏹️ ▶️ functions for you we first discussed this back when we were discussing the playstation five i think maybe

⏹️ ▶️ before it was even released talking about the way the playstation five did three d audio

⏹️ ▶️ and there is the concept of the head related transfer function which basically defines based

⏹️ ▶️ on the shape of your head and your ears how does sound out in the world

⏹️ ▶️ bounce off of your head and the insides of your ears to hit the things that send

⏹️ ▶️ sound your ear drums right everyone’s got different head and got different ears and

⏹️ ▶️ so sounds in the world are always filtered through your weird little ears and

⏹️ ▶️ head and stuff and when you hear something to your left your right a little bit above a little bit below your brain has

⏹️ ▶️ been trained to identify that sound based on how sound hits off your head and ears

⏹️ ▶️ so your brain is you know wired up a little bit differently than someone else’s brain because their brain

⏹️ ▶️ has been wired up to detect sound based on the shape of their head and years right just over time like you

⏹️ ▶️ learn where sound is so if you gonna do three the audio the best way to

⏹️ ▶️ try to do it is to define a personalized head related transfer function for each

⏹️ ▶️ person based on the shape of their head and their ears because you can’t just play the same sound out

⏹️ ▶️ of speakers like for you know in modern applies for spatial audio you can use sort

⏹️ ▶️ of an average head related transfer function that will work okay for most people but if

⏹️ ▶️ you personalize that it sounds even better and there was something that that the sony presentation

⏹️ ▶️ for the playstation was saying oh well we scanned a hundred years and average them in a computer and blah blah

⏹️ ▶️ blah and like maybe some day you’ll be able to scan your ear and get personalized three

⏹️ ▶️ d sound in your playstation five i’m not sure where that is on the playstation but apparently

⏹️ ▶️ iowa sixteen has a feature like that where they ask you to

⏹️ ▶️ use basically the facetime camera and you do the facetime thing but they also say now please

⏹️ ▶️ take the phone and show it your ears show it your left ear and then show it your right ear

⏹️ ▶️ and it scans both your head and also your ear and tries to i’m

⏹️ ▶️ assuming use the depth camera to come up with a model of the craggy ness of your

⏹️ ▶️ ear and the size of your head to come up with a personalized head related transfer function will link to joshua’s

⏹️ ▶️ tweet where he shows himself doing this and it’s supposed to put like a little bracket around where it sees

⏹️ ▶️ the ear and has real trouble finding josh’s ears and it’s not because he has big long wavy hair that’s

⏹️ ▶️ blocking them his ears are clearly visible it’s kind of like one of those things where they ask him and find the ears in this picture i can find

⏹️ ▶️ them they’re right there a little kid can find him i see his ear to the phone is having real problems but anyway seems

⏹️ ▶️ like beta one so we’ll see how this goes i also like casey have a vague recollection

⏹️ ▶️ of this being mentioned but i have no idea what this functionality is and i haven’t in sold iowa sixteen yet

CarPlay

⏹️ ▶️ all right so last week we were talking about car play and this new

⏹️ ▶️ system that apples announced wherein they you know basically take over the entire car

⏹️ ▶️ and i wanted to bring up a couple of things that jon just vanderhoof brings

⏹️ ▶️ up and and i’m mad because i never thought i never actually said it during the episode

⏹️ ▶️ but this is very well put in your discussion on carplay john hammered on the fact that all

⏹️ ▶️ implementations still need a car manufacturer stock you if when there is no phone available however google already

⏹️ ▶️ has android automotive which replaces the manufacturer system entirely i have ordered a pull start two that uses

⏹️ ▶️ that system i believe that audi is doing something similar to me that is the future of car play or at least apple is going to

⏹️ ▶️ need to have something like that as an option for car manufacturer a friend of the show jelly just took delivery

⏹️ ▶️ of a pull star too and i’ve been talking to him about it and i knew that the pull star was using android automotive and

⏹️ ▶️ i completely didn’t get a chance to or or set my mind to bring it up and i’m

⏹️ ▶️ actually going to skip forward just a little bit because the other thing i meant to talk about which i didn’t mention last

⏹️ ▶️ week matt volk points out and matt wright there’s an interesting article from ours technical a

⏹️ ▶️ while back that says that the a gauge cluster display cannot be run by a non real

⏹️ ▶️ time os so reading from that article supporting a car especially an android car also

⏹️ ▶️ means needing support for virtualization android can run the entertainment system but something else needs to run the gage cluster

⏹️ ▶️ display behind the steering wheel you know cause good cars have clusters behind steering wheel never

⏹️ ▶️ mind safety regulations mandate that the gauge cluster cannot run android android isn’t a real time os

⏹️ ▶️ meaning it can lag if the processor’s too slow and that’s not allowed for critical driving components like the penomet

⏹️ ▶️ the solution this is bananas to me but apparently this is this is what they did the solution is to have the snapdragon

⏹️ ▶️ eighty eight twenty processor run two os via virtualization with android running center infotainment

⏹️ ▶️ screen and some other os running the gauge cluster display android can still send the gauge cluster you

⏹️ ▶️ i overlay for things like media one and google maps information but the spirometer is off limits and

⏹️ ▶️ also in that article it talks about how they were using qualcomm processors and apparently since that

⏹️ ▶️ article has been written at matt tells us that pol star has dumped qualcomm and is instead using a video

⏹️ ▶️ for the pull star three that is coming out soon ish before we talk about what car companies

⏹️ ▶️ are going to do with this any thoughts on all of those things that we just spoke about so there’s a bunch of cars

⏹️ ▶️ the us android auto like aeros but the thing about that that don’t hold on there’s two different

⏹️ ▶️ things that this is this confused the crappy when i was researching it there’s android auto which is basically like what we think

⏹️ ▶️ of his carplay there’s also android automotive yes they have a product called android auto and a product

⏹️ ▶️ calling drawn up automotive they are two different products yeah automotive sorry it’s it’s yeah what i mean

⏹️ ▶️ is that like a car manufacturer decides hey we don’t want to do our entire infotainment

⏹️ ▶️ system ourselves well turns out there’s an android variant that we can outrun on our internal

⏹️ ▶️ car stuff that will do that for us it ships with the car ride but kind of like android

⏹️ ▶️ everywhere on phones the beauty of android if you choose to look at it that way

⏹️ ▶️ is that it can be customized so you buy a samsung phone and it runs android but samsung customize the heck

⏹️ ▶️ out of it when you use android you get the source code to android and you can customize

⏹️ ▶️ it and that’s what car makers do they use android automotive as the foundation for

⏹️ ▶️ the o s is going to the car but they can make it look and feel however they want and customize the heck

⏹️ ▶️ out of it they’re just not starting from zero right that doesn’t apply to carplay apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ not going to give you the source code whatever the caresses and say oh yeah just change it put what

⏹️ ▶️ your logos on it change everything around you know we don’t care go ahead no that’s not how it’s going to work with apple

⏹️ ▶️ so although it is true that many manufacturers do base their in car

⏹️ ▶️ infotainment systems on android it’s because android is android and is open source

⏹️ ▶️ and they are able to modify it that they are willing to do that because if you look at these various cars that use

⏹️ ▶️ android automotive they don’t all look exactly the same you can kind of tell the all running under an automotive but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ customized in ways that apple basically wouldn’t let you do now that said that doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ mean that apple isn’t pitching these people and hey take our new car

⏹️ ▶️ play thing and build it into your car no phone needed just you start up the car we don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ what kind of phone you have or if you have a phone of any kind whatsoever carplay will be running on

⏹️ ▶️ your car it’ll be in your car and it will control you know all the stuff maybe they have a real time

⏹️ ▶️ os for the gauge cluster if that’s a requirement they run all the screens all that stuff that could definitely

⏹️ ▶️ happen but it’s not going to be like it is with android a motive because apple is not going to give you

⏹️ ▶️ the source code and they’re not going to say go ahead put your logos all over it and change everything about it see

⏹️ ▶️ the most interesting part of this to me is this distinction of like that the gauge cluster

⏹️ ▶️ must run a real time operating system so as as a very quick reference

⏹️ ▶️ for those views don’t know a real time operating system that the main difference between

⏹️ ▶️ real time os and pretty much every every other os that we think of that we use every day

⏹️ ▶️ like ios and macos and everything else windows linux android those are all um

⏹️ ▶️ those have non deterministic performance under certain characteristics or or you know they

⏹️ ▶️ they can have very complex performance characteristics real time osces are made to be extremely

⏹️ ▶️ predictable and able to service their like basic needs know that whatever the

⏹️ ▶️ io needs whatever the cycle is whatever they’re whatever they’re managing they’re able to service those requests

⏹️ ▶️ in a defined known deterministic amount of time so that way if you have some like a

⏹️ ▶️ speedometer the os will like you know be guaranteed that the speedometer will

⏹️ ▶️ update x times per second no matter what so even if some app is

⏹️ ▶️ running that’s like you know trying to allocate a bunch of memory or take a bunch of cpu time or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ that that can’t happen on my website that can’t slow it down it will always always

⏹️ ▶️ service those requests exactly on schedule or within a very very small you know variance and you know

⏹️ ▶️ depending on how good it is that variance can be smaller but that’s the gist of it and so the design

⏹️ ▶️ of our tos is totally different than other ones because you have to do a lot of things that

⏹️ ▶️ you wouldn’t think of such as like memory allocation can be non termini tic

⏹️ ▶️ it can it can slow down or it can result in problems or failures so like real

⏹️ ▶️ times usually have a lot of statically allocated memory that’s like that’s one of the biggest things and you know static

⏹️ ▶️ time slice based scheduling or other you know complex scheduling needs and so

⏹️ ▶️ this is so different from the way that our usual computing os’s

⏹️ ▶️ are re built and re and are optimized and so i think

⏹️ ▶️ so knowing that the gauge cluster must run a real time os

⏹️ ▶️ my guess i know this is a little bit out there is that this is

⏹️ ▶️ either what’s left of or will what we will first see from project

⏹️ ▶️ titan that real time os to run that part of what we saw

⏹️ ▶️ in the carplay demo debuts that’s my guess that project titan either was scaled

⏹️ ▶️ down to just this or this is going to be the first thing we see from that project but

⏹️ ▶️ that what it is is some kind of real time os to run those gauges

⏹️ ▶️ that they showed off in the keynote on these car screens so that way apple can literally

⏹️ ▶️ take over the entire display of all of that and be up to date with all safety

⏹️ ▶️ regulations and everything and somehow be running two oses now there’s some ways they can do this

⏹️ ▶️ so this article mentioned virtualization well apples modern you know

⏹️ ▶️ apple silicon chips all support that though chips in the iphone probably do as well you know the spot on the mac we i would

⏹️ ▶️ imagine they put it on the iphone at the hardware level or at least they could fairly easily and so

⏹️ ▶️ maybe the iphone runs two os is in parallel may be one of them a is a little real time

⏹️ ▶️ os to run this car play feature and the other one is like the rest of i o s or maybe

⏹️ ▶️ there’s some kind of minor hypervisor under both of them i’m not sure i don’t know i don’t know the details of how that could work

⏹️ ▶️ why is an iphone involved because the iphone oh well like i as if was going to be built

⏹️ ▶️ into the car like obviously project titan wasn’t going to require you to have an iphone to drive the car like you know

⏹️ ▶️ and if their app apple’s doing you know was rumored to be doing self driving stuff for project

⏹️ ▶️ titan and if they were going to do an entire car you need some kind of you know real

⏹️ ▶️ time system to run the car parts of the car doesn’t have to be fancy but presumably apple would make it fancy so surely

⏹️ ▶️ some kind of more restricted you know better real

⏹️ ▶️ time guarantee type operating system or application environment was part of project titan right

⏹️ ▶️ but they wouldn’t require you to have a phone with you to drive the car so there has to be silicon

⏹️ ▶️ in the car and software in the car to run the car so i would imagine that would be running

⏹️ ▶️ the real time os for the real time systems and that would be running maybe using virtualization the non real

⏹️ ▶️ time os for the other parts of the car but would they want a car to have

⏹️ ▶️ basically like a like built in iphone hardware that like presumably could never

⏹️ ▶️ be updated it wouldn’t be it would be like the eight thirteen in the studio display right so right

⏹️ ▶️ in all the in all these cases like even these cars that run android automotive right they’re running it so you can

⏹️ ▶️ like oh i can change the fan speed on the climate control and i can turn the wipers on and i can do all those things and then there’s

⏹️ ▶️ the you know the sort of figure what it’s called like the can bus or something but the real time system that does like stability control

⏹️ ▶️ and antilock brakes and that’s separate from the android automotive right but in all these systems there’s also

⏹️ ▶️ the flash style thing that i referred to last time which is like and on top of all this hey there’s a

⏹️ ▶️ rectangle that we’ll cut out of our entire o s and carplay will display there or andre otto will

⏹️ ▶️ display there so like that is the third layer on top of this is the real time os there’s a thing that runs all

⏹️ ▶️ the infotainment and maybe lays stuff over the gauge cluster and then there is a system that says hey your phone can display

⏹️ ▶️ stuff here because you are going to want to have apps on your phone and run down the newest version of ways or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ that’s going to get a chunk of that screen where whatever phone you own whether it be android

⏹️ ▶️ or an apple phone can put stu aps on that phone display into part of that screen

⏹️ ▶️ but that’s on top of the stuff that’s built into the car hm that’s interesting all right i could

⏹️ ▶️ i could be convinced of that i mean that’s that’s a modern cars do you buy a car with android auto motive and you and supports

⏹️ ▶️ carplay you’re seeing your iphone’s crap being displayed in a rectangle on top of android automotive

⏹️ ▶️ yeah cause cause you know this to me like this sounds like

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s answer to andrew automotive like this is like they want they want their slice of this they

⏹️ ▶️ think they can do a better job of it they prob they might be able to i don’t know it depends on how much they put into it but

⏹️ ▶️ to me like this sounds a lot like project titan or you know what’s

⏹️ ▶️ left of it if they have this they had to have had the system if they were planning on making a car how far along

⏹️ ▶️ do they go how many dead ends do they go down is this the same as what they were doing or did they scrap all that and start over

⏹️ ▶️ we don’t know the other thing i will get to the what the car manufacturer said in a second from this verge article ut the other thing that

⏹️ ▶️ a bunch of people point out is multiple years ago maybe last year maybe a year before that

⏹️ ▶️ apple at one of the things apple touted about car plays hey car play now

⏹️ ▶️ we can display stuff in more than one place right now carplay shows your stuff in a little rectangle on your

⏹️ ▶️ dashboard but the new version of carpet can show stuff in two rectangles

⏹️ ▶️ on your dashboard so car manufacturers could support letting your phone show some stuff in the gauge

⏹️ ▶️ cluster right that’s been true for a year or two now yeah i think that’s a multi year old feature

⏹️ ▶️ but how many cars have you seen that in one so it seems like either apple

⏹️ ▶️ hasn’t gotten a lot of uptake on that feature which again is not this thing that we saw in the keynote but just simply like oh

⏹️ ▶️ i can just show stuff in two rectangles three the car makers didn’t pick up on that feature or just take

⏹️ ▶️ so long for the car and try to do anything that everybody jumped on instantly i’m rolling in a see in cars to come out two years ago

⏹️ ▶️ i could either i do want to go back a half step though i strongly agree with you marco

⏹️ ▶️ that this is the first evidence we’ve seen or the first effort we’ve seen that came out of titan i mean

⏹️ ▶️ i have no inside knowledge i could be dead wrong about this but i think you’re right that this is the

⏹️ ▶️ the first bit of fall out in the happy sense from from their car project and and it wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ surprise me if it started as let’s build a physical car and ends up as

⏹️ ▶️ this is what you were saying a minute ago that this is all we get from that entire humongous project is you know

⏹️ ▶️ a car play automotive if you will for lack of a better name and this lines up perfectly with honestly

⏹️ ▶️ with all the rumors that we heard about it so you know a lot they tried a bunch of things lot of turmoil lot of changes

⏹️ ▶️ in direction leadership and everything else and if you remember the most recent

⏹️ ▶️ you know reasonably credible or strong at least rumors we heard about

⏹️ ▶️ titan was about a year or two ago when the rumor was

⏹️ ▶️ they had they had pivoted to quote making software for other auto makers and

⏹️ ▶️ we all made fun of that because we were like that’s not something apple would do they want to make the whole

⏹️ ▶️ widget and and it’s interesting you know even in the live talk show at everybody see this year

⏹️ ▶️ you know john gruber almost directly asked them you know like why they

⏹️ ▶️ were doing this kind of new carpet thing when the apple way of doing things normally is to make the whole

⏹️ ▶️ widget and the the very long smiling pause from the apple

⏹️ ▶️ executives to that question with no real response i’m kind of suggested that they

⏹️ ▶️ were still planning to make the whole widget as in make the whole car make the whole car but um

⏹️ ▶️ so you know that’s that’s one small data point against this theory or that maybe

⏹️ ▶️ this isn’t the only thing they’re doing but it does like looking at the current

⏹️ ▶️ landscape if carmakers even if you know one or two car makers like it

⏹️ ▶️ doesn’t you don’t need a lot to start but if car makers are willing to give apple

⏹️ ▶️ full access to giant screens to control the vast majority of the experience

⏹️ ▶️ that’s a really good position for apple to be in because it lets them keep focusing mostly

⏹️ ▶️ on their high profit iphone business it’s massive lock in to iphone owners

⏹️ ▶️ because then like you know everything in their life will start working totally differently and

⏹️ ▶️ possibly worse if they ever switch away from the iphone and it’s something that lets apple focus on the parts

⏹️ ▶️ they like and take profit from the sources they already have without entering the giant

⏹️ ▶️ messy expensive complicated world of the physical car design and

⏹️ ▶️ sale and maintenance like that that whole world is incredibly messy if as we’ve discussed

⏹️ ▶️ before i see no reason for apple to make their own car i also see

⏹️ ▶️ no reason for apple to get into the self driving business in a major way because even that is

⏹️ ▶️ that has also shown to be big and messy and you know possibly not actually

⏹️ ▶️ working for a long time and you know things that where this is minneapolis can get into today they

⏹️ ▶️ like they can start doing this and they are by all means they are starting to do this today they can

⏹️ ▶️ start taking control of things and you know prevent or at least you know stave off competition

⏹️ ▶️ from android that’s literally doing like a very similar thing here so you know they they

⏹️ ▶️ kind of have to do it on one level defensively they are against android and it has all these pluses for them and

⏹️ ▶️ for their users so i think this is project titan and if

⏹️ ▶️ they eventually make their own car down the road okay i was wrong i think this is it

⏹️ ▶️ i think they have to support android auto though because like all the cars support both things

⏹️ ▶️ now it supports car player android auto right and granted the whole stat that has like you know

⏹️ ▶️ eighty percent of new car buyers or phone owners just because if you’re buying a new car you probably had a lot of money which probably means you

⏹️ ▶️ buy a fancy iphone right but eighty percent is not a hundred percent oh yeah i don’t i don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ them not supporting andre ato in in the way like in like you know the dumb window today that carplay

⏹️ ▶️ is for other things like i see this as a replacement for andrew automotive not android auto right

⏹️ ▶️ but what i’m saying is like wouldn’t it be it’s pretty weird for apple to be making an os that that has

⏹️ ▶️ a feature where it carves out a portion of the screen so that an android phone can display its stuff from

⏹️ ▶️ its aps there i mean but it’s the price of entry and that that gets to this final section here this is the article

⏹️ ▶️ in the verge where they called a bunch of car manufacturers right after the heino and said hey apple had

⏹️ ▶️ this thing today where they showed like apple software running across the entire dashboard are you going to support that

⏹️ ▶️ and the car manufacturers predictably said you know no comment or like a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ of words saying oh we believe in the full car experience and we’re interested in what apple does and we are very happy

⏹️ ▶️ partners with apple and la blah blah there is very few like enthusiastic yes totally our

⏹️ ▶️ next car is going to have apple across the whole dashboard the closest we got is from pulsar which is a quote from pulsars

⏹️ ▶️ you know pierre representative apple carplay will come to polster too as part of an over the air

⏹️ ▶️ update later this month we’re also thrilled to announce that the next generation of car play will be coming

⏹️ ▶️ to post our cars in the future that is so vague it’s like well does that mean the thing

⏹️ ▶️ they showed on the screen because there is going to be a next generation of car play

⏹️ ▶️ but it might just be the regular car play i don’t no no so i can i can translate this for

⏹️ ▶️ you no joke so again you know our friend jelly just got a pull start two and it does not have car

⏹️ ▶️ play until literally today he set takes a few minutes ago saying that that update is finally landed

⏹️ ▶️ so as of today his car will have what we think of his car play you know

⏹️ ▶️ the standard carplay experience i read this as we are through to announce that the next generation

⏹️ ▶️ of car play this new fancy thing where it takes over the dash et cetera et cetera will be coming to polestar cars in the future

⏹️ ▶️ that’s a yes additionally volvo which is effectively the same as pulsar except not really i said

⏹️ ▶️ at this time we don’t have anything to share beyond that we plan to support this next generation of apple car play in

⏹️ ▶️ future vehicles so volvo and pull star seemed to be in on it everyone else that they talked to

⏹️ ▶️ seemed extremely wishy washy or heck no and they put a bunch of logos

⏹️ ▶️ up there like they called a lot of the people from these logos actually the dakota podcast this

⏹️ ▶️ related to the verge talk to i think the c of mercedes benz or somebody fancy for mercedes benz

⏹️ ▶️ and had a longer discussion about like part of the discussion was hey this apple thing are you going

⏹️ ▶️ to support it and mercedes kind of said the same thing that you’d mention ben w would say the both these

⏹️ ▶️ companies both mercedes and b m w have spent a lot of time and money and resources trying to

⏹️ ▶️ come up with their own oh asked to run their dashboards because both mercedes and bmw

⏹️ ▶️ have really leaned heavily into screens across their new dashboards mercedes

⏹️ ▶️ going the heaviest where its like screens from edge to edge top to bottom like just a whole

⏹️ ▶️ dashboard not just like a giant tablet shoved into the middle of it like a tesla bmw’s new dashboard

⏹️ ▶️ looked like an extremely unimaginative very long skinny screen from from in front of the driver

⏹️ ▶️ all over past the midpoint of the car but they’re all running i mean maybe they are android

⏹️ ▶️ based or whatever but they’re they’re very adamant that their oses look like whatever a b m

⏹️ ▶️ w o s or whatever mercedes os looks like um it i can’t imagine

⏹️ ▶️ any of the current b m w mercedes designs having that all replaced by apple stuff

⏹️ ▶️ because you know if you look at the keynote you look at what they showed on the dashboards and it looks like

⏹️ ▶️ an apple you eye and you know see previous episodes of my complaints about what an apple you eye looks like but

⏹️ ▶️ it looks apply right it would be out of place in

⏹️ ▶️ any of the interiors of any current cars from these carmakers because these car makers make the o

⏹️ ▶️ s match what their interiors look like and their interiors mostly don’t follow that same minimalist

⏹️ ▶️ apple aesthetic they follow usually worse or maybe

⏹️ ▶️ uglier anyway aesthetics and they make their dashboard graphics and infographics

⏹️ ▶️ and diagrams and instrument clusters match that and so

⏹️ ▶️ i think you know pull star if there if they’re gung ho and volvo presumably

⏹️ ▶️ the cars that they put this in will be designed so this apple look and feel

⏹️ ▶️ matches the interior of the cars and i think actually polestar is pretty close to that aesthetic already

⏹️ ▶️ but mercedes b m w g m to for these these makers

⏹️ ▶️ are their careers do not look apply let’s say and neither do their oses neither do their screens

⏹️ ▶️ neither do their internal custers neither do their entertainment and a lot of these car makers don’t

⏹️ ▶️ want the inside of their car to look apply the apple aesthetic that they showed again there could be more

⏹️ ▶️ than one aesthetic but what they showed that that doesn’t match certain kinds of

⏹️ ▶️ cars sometimes you want a car to be a thing of like a big mean truck we just talked about as people who love

⏹️ ▶️ their big trucks you don’t want a delicate apply you ye in your big mean truck it just doesn’t match or

⏹️ ▶️ like a fancy sports car that’s look racy canta is a secret but

⏹️ ▶️ i just don’t tell anybody i honestly didn’t like the look of the car play ages they showed off that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ i’m saying like there apple apple strength has not been the ability to convey information

⏹️ ▶️ in a clear way it’s all been about little contrast text that nobody can read hiding things that they think you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ need to see like i think their strength their current strengths are not well suited to do an instrument

⏹️ ▶️ cluster like his instrument clusters like show me the information in a clear way that i can see at different times of

⏹️ ▶️ day and whatever and like we can’t even read anything in our eyes on our phones that we can position anyway it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t yet you have to hover over the transmission stick to see what you’re in my gosh i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ even am i drive my reverse let’s see let me just hover my my hand over here oh oh there i popped in

⏹️ ▶️ there we go we’ll do pupil tracking when you’re not looking at the number will hit the numbers it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ hurt us only when you look at it we’ll make the numbers beautifully fade into view what if they

⏹️ ▶️ don’t fade into view i’ll try looking at it a little bit longer when you show the numbers all the time we feel like

⏹️ ▶️ the numbers are distracting there the numbers are distracting you from your content we only let the content

⏹️ ▶️ oh now just i only show the numbers when your pupils land on the pedometer oh

⏹️ ▶️ my gosh it’s so bad because it could be true i love the idea of

⏹️ ▶️ apple of apple designed stuff and when i saw the reality of it or when i think about

⏹️ ▶️ like the reality of you know modern mac design is like oh no maybe maybe that’s not what i want

⏹️ ▶️ but even setting that aside even if it was really good cars have different

⏹️ ▶️ styles that for each model within a make and or for entire manufacturers have a different

⏹️ ▶️ sort of style and not all the match apple like i said polestar i think does actually match

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s vibe but you know mercedes and b m w don’t volvo

⏹️ ▶️ arguably doesn’t toda and honda certainly don’t so that’s the beauty of android automotive these

⏹️ ▶️ carmakers can take that and you know make it look however they want just like android phone makers

⏹️ ▶️ can take android and make it look like whatever ugly things they think they want to make their android ones look like that

⏹️ ▶️ is a feature of android motive that i assume will not be a feature of anything like that from apple

⏹️ ▶️ because apple does not really the modern apple as in in the last several decades does not want you

⏹️ ▶️ to skin their os back in the day they did and it was super cool but not lately

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SwiftUI: The way forward?

⏹️ ▶️ i wanted to briefly

⏹️ ▶️ talk about the w w d c state of the union and one particular part

⏹️ ▶️ of it there’s some there’s a bunch of little things that may be worth talking

⏹️ ▶️ about another time but there is one piece that i thought was really fascinating that i wanted

⏹️ ▶️ to call out and i wanted to hear what you guys had to say about this early on in the presentation for not mistaken

⏹️ ▶️ let me back up i’m sorry a half step so the platform state of the union is like the nerd keno

⏹️ ▶️ right so the one o’clock in the afternoon eastern time keynote

⏹️ ▶️ keynote is for everyone it’s for nerds it’s for non nerds but the platform state of the union

⏹️ ▶️ which is typically in the afternoon of the first day of w w d c that is the

⏹️ ▶️ nerds keno where they talk about code where they talk about nerdy things and

⏹️ ▶️ one of the first things that they spoke about yes susan prescott was the m c

⏹️ ▶️ she did a brief thing about ex exo cloud and then they brought up josh i can never

⏹️ ▶️ remember if it’s shaffer shaffer and i apologize but josh s came out

⏹️ ▶️ and said a couple of interesting things but one of the things he said was

⏹️ ▶️ he he stood in front of a big white screen that that that on that screen set objective s apk

⏹️ ▶️ you i kit an interface builder these are all the technologies that you used to write ios

⏹️ ▶️ or macos apps up until swift you eye existed and he stood in front of the screen and he said

⏹️ ▶️ and i don’t have the exact forbade him quote in front of me but he said he said in so many words these are all legacy

⏹️ ▶️ they will exist for a long time but this is not the way forward the way forward is swift

⏹️ ▶️ and swifty eye and then following that it was ben cohen who did a feature on swift

⏹️ ▶️ specifically and ben and i believe this is a verbatim said swift is absolutely the

⏹️ ▶️ best language to build apps across our devices and then they leaned onto sify

⏹️ ▶️ as well heavily throughout the rest of the presentation and

⏹️ ▶️ i thought this was interesting because one of the things that all of us griped not not only the three of us on the show

⏹️ ▶️ but all of us as developers griped about after last year and maybe even a couple of years prior but

⏹️ ▶️ especially after last year was what is what is the way forward apple like what are you

⏹️ ▶️ if i’m developing a new macos app today am i am i doing that with ap kit

⏹️ ▶️ am i doing it with catalyst which is basically you hit on macos am i doing

⏹️ ▶️ it with swiss you i what is the right answer and it seems

⏹️ ▶️ extremely clear that josh and ben and the rest of the team at apple are saying

⏹️ ▶️ the right answer is swift and swift you eye wherever you can and then fall back to these

⏹️ ▶️ other things if it if you can’t use swift and swift you eye and on the one side

⏹️ ▶️ i deeply appreciate that they have put a line in the sand or a flag in the dirt

⏹️ ▶️ or whatever analogy you want to use and they’ve said this is the way

⏹️ ▶️ that being said they’re right they’re having swifty eye write a bunch of checks said i’m not sure

⏹️ ▶️ swifty eye can cash and and i’m i don’t know i’m a little concerned

⏹️ ▶️ marco let me start with you since you are the most develope developer

⏹️ ▶️ on apple platforms of the three of us what what is what do you think about this and if you wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ mind starting by just very very briefly reminding us what is your swift and swift you by journey as of today

⏹️ ▶️ as of today i am writing as much new code as i can and swift i’m

⏹️ ▶️ not going back and rewriting working objective sea code in swift however

⏹️ ▶️ i am i’m making grand plans in my head that i may never actually achieve

⏹️ ▶️ of of you know larger moves like that um so that’s that’s

⏹️ ▶️ swift im swifty eye i use a hundred percent on the watch ap because

⏹️ ▶️ again the alternative was garbage in the iphone app i’m using very little swifty eye so far

⏹️ ▶️ and there are various reasons for that but very little of it so far i have done

⏹️ ▶️ other little like toy apps like like you know little utilities i’ve made for myself have done those and swifty wives i’ve used

⏹️ ▶️ a little bit more there but not not a ton um so i think with this we have to separate

⏹️ ▶️ a few different things so first of all we have to see versus swift as the language we are using

⏹️ ▶️ that is very clear swift is very mature now that is the way forward

⏹️ ▶️ it has been the way forward for quite some time now so the language you

⏹️ ▶️ should be using for almost all code in your app as long as you can is swift especially

⏹️ ▶️ if you’re writing new code it’s a no brainer use swift that simple that is well supported

⏹️ ▶️ and that’s a totally reasonable stand for them to take and they’ve been taking it for you know many years now

⏹️ ▶️ and so that that that i think set that aside okay objective c as much

⏹️ ▶️ as much as i love objective c and i still write some of it you know in parts of my app that use it swift

⏹️ ▶️ is the way forward and that’s that’s that’s a done deal that that fight is over you know we’ve moved

⏹️ ▶️ on okay so then then the question becomes which ui framework are

⏹️ ▶️ using swift or are using uikit or ap kit that’s a much more

⏹️ ▶️ difficult question to answer that’s really what we’re talking about here it’s not about the language it’s about the framework

⏹️ ▶️ and what you can do in the framework and what’s hard and what’s easy and what’s buggy

⏹️ ▶️ and what’s mature swift you eye in

⏹️ ▶️ releases before sixteen and mac os ventura um because

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t have any experience with the new ones yet in that way but swiftly before these

⏹️ ▶️ disease has been very interesting

⏹️ ▶️ very bumpy of a ride it has a lot of value when you’re on the

⏹️ ▶️ happy path as we talked to it before and and when you hit a wall you hit it hard and

⏹️ ▶️ it’s it’s often so frustrating that you have to basicly go back and like

⏹️ ▶️ rewrite the whole thing and you like it or you know do ridiculous

⏹️ ▶️ levels of hacks in order to work around some limitation of fifty one

⏹️ ▶️ based on what i’ve seen so far with the new stuff it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ they are making progress towards removing more and more of those needs for those hacks

⏹️ ▶️ but there are still a lot left and some of them i think are inherent to swift you

⏹️ ▶️ eye and just the architecture that it has and the whole idea of declarative ui framework like

⏹️ ▶️ some of that certain hacks are necessary just to fit into that paradigm and so

⏹️ ▶️ that is that’s going to be a problem to some degree forever and to

⏹️ ▶️ the question is when will we when will we hit a point where and or have we already hit a

⏹️ ▶️ point where we can mostly use swift you eye and not have to dip out of it very

⏹️ ▶️ often and not have to hack around problems or limitations in it very often to the point where we can say all right

⏹️ ▶️ this is this is what we’re using by default and you know most of the time we’ll be fine doing this

⏹️ ▶️ and i don’t know that we’ve reached that point yet swifty i is still very very early

⏹️ ▶️ still you know it’s it’s what about four years old something like that i believe

⏹️ ▶️ that in public at least you know i know it it was on the watch of development for a few years

⏹️ ▶️ before that but it’s very very young in the public world

⏹️ ▶️ and it’s not evenly aged and even the maternal platforms it’s for

⏹️ ▶️ instance if you talked about last week what you get with swift you eye code is worse

⏹️ ▶️ on the mac than it is on ios and what you get an ios is worse

⏹️ ▶️ than what you get on watchos you know clearly there there’s like a hierarchy of maturity

⏹️ ▶️ here watchos is at the top watchos swift i done it’s great it’s fine just use it

⏹️ ▶️ is swift ui well it’s okay at most of the time but you know you start hitting problems in

⏹️ ▶️ certain edge cases or you know certain specialized needs or certain customizability that’s not possible or

⏹️ ▶️ performance problems with certain types of collections or certain types of structures so you know there’s there’s issues like that

⏹️ ▶️ and then you go to the mac and it’s even more of those like well you have more problems more bugs

⏹️ ▶️ more limitations more subpar implementations or subpar behaviors

⏹️ ▶️ or looks and so i think this is a very optimistic

⏹️ ▶️ slide fr apple to say this is the way forward this is how this is the best

⏹️ ▶️ way to build apps today because it might be the best way to build

⏹️ ▶️ like you know their demo aps like you know the ice cream stand or whatever you know their demo received session

⏹️ ▶️ kind as you know it might be good for that but it still seems to

⏹️ ▶️ hit a lot of need for hacks and walls and problems when it hits the real

⏹️ ▶️ world and it especially has a lot of those problems

⏹️ ▶️ when you’re interacting with legacy code bases or the mac

⏹️ ▶️ and so until they can really develop a lot of that just with

⏹️ ▶️ with you know maturation over time basically i don’t know if they can necessarily declare

⏹️ ▶️ this you know they’re declaring this more as a wish

⏹️ ▶️ than a reality and they might make it a reality the

⏹️ ▶️ i’m sure they intend to keep going down the path that will make it a reality whether they can achieve

⏹️ ▶️ that is a different story whether they are able to give it the quality and attention

⏹️ ▶️ it needs in areas like the mac where it’s not quite like it you

⏹️ ▶️ know the number one priority that remains to be seen right

⏹️ ▶️ now if i were writing a brand new app today i would absolutely no doubt try

⏹️ ▶️ to do it this way and whenever i run into problems

⏹️ ▶️ rather than trying to dump swift you eye and go back to you eye

⏹️ ▶️ kit or a kit i would attempt to do the various mechanisms where you can

⏹️ ▶️ like drop out of swift you eye and use api or you i kit wrapped in a swift ye view

⏹️ ▶️ for certain parts of your of your view hierarchies or whatever like that so i would totally do this

⏹️ ▶️ if writing you today and in fact i am very tempted to try to rewrite large parts

⏹️ ▶️ of my api this way because i think being

⏹️ ▶️ on the happy path here is going to make certain things easier in the future

⏹️ ▶️ you know already my ap is a huge pile of

⏹️ ▶️ burdensome technical debt because my ap is a huge pile of objective

⏹️ ▶️ c ui kit code that has some swift here and there but is mostly

⏹️ ▶️ still old objective c u y kit code because there is

⏹️ ▶️ so much you eye in a podcast app you have no idea you think a

⏹️ ▶️ pokestop has three screens i’m telling you it’s so much more than that there is so much you

⏹️ ▶️ are in a podcast step and so i you know i’m feeling a great burden

⏹️ ▶️ of all this legacy code and i would love to move towards the ideal

⏹️ ▶️ of swift you eye which is like wow i can i can probably collapse a lot a lot of this code

⏹️ ▶️ that is you know thousands of lines of justice for you i get into

⏹️ ▶️ hundreds of lines of swift you eye instead that is hopefully cleaner and easier to maintain

⏹️ ▶️ and possibly avoid certain bug behaviors of certain inconsistent states and things like that

⏹️ ▶️ i would love to do that and i’m going to probably start attempting to do that like later this summer to say like hey

⏹️ ▶️ can i can i actually do this or not i can do like a feasibility study of just trying some things and see what happens but

⏹️ ▶️ the reality is i don’t see any evidence yet that we’re that we’re near that point where

⏹️ ▶️ that actually is that easy that it seems like we are

⏹️ ▶️ going in that direction but there are still so many walls and limitations and hurdles

⏹️ ▶️ and we’ll see what happens um they are making progress every year they

⏹️ ▶️ add a bunch of stuff and fix a bunch of stuff and improve a bunch of stuff to swift you eye and so they

⏹️ ▶️ are making progress but these are big shoes to fill like you’re asking

⏹️ ▶️ people to throw away all of the old frameworks that they know

⏹️ ▶️ and all the and everything they know about them for a totally different only totally different

⏹️ ▶️ library for making you eyes but a whole different paradigm of how you make you eyes and

⏹️ ▶️ how data flows through apps and that’s really hard complicated stuff for

⏹️ ▶️ all of us for them to implement and for us to learn and to change our mental

⏹️ ▶️ models and behaviors and architectures for that’s a huge thing and

⏹️ ▶️ that’s not going to happen in a few years it’s going to take it’s going to take a decade

⏹️ ▶️ to really like move the industry over that way in a big way

⏹️ ▶️ and you know they have been smart about it in the sense that they have made these little escape hatches

⏹️ ▶️ where you can do things in parts and that’s very very smart because if if that wasn’t the case this would

⏹️ ▶️ be nowhere near where it is today in terms of in terms of adoption and usefulness

⏹️ ▶️ but i still think this is optimistic because again also keep in mind

⏹️ ▶️ that if you want to you swift you eye with all its new stuff you know

⏹️ ▶️ you want to use a navigation tree stuff great that solves your problems i look forward to trying that but i

⏹️ ▶️ can only do it when my app requires ios sixteen or macos ventura and so

⏹️ ▶️ even then it’s like if you’re if you have a need to support even

⏹️ ▶️ one or two of us versions back uh you know this stuff you can’t quite use it yet so

⏹️ ▶️ you might not be able to use swift you eye the way you want to or you might have even more hacks

⏹️ ▶️ so again like this is a process this takes a lot of time we are not

⏹️ ▶️ that far along this process yet in the grand scheme of things swift you eye

⏹️ ▶️ is not mature yet you can’t use it for everything yet you shouldn’t use it for everything yet and

⏹️ ▶️ for apple to say you should use it for everything or you should probably use it for everything i think

⏹️ ▶️ is still optimistic but i think we’re getting there

⏹️ ▶️ give a brief review of a council summer even when we talked about this

⏹️ ▶️ in the past the analogy we used then was like the mages ten when it first came out

⏹️ ▶️ masten was based on the next step is but it had a bunch of apple classic mac apis thrown

⏹️ ▶️ on top and you had two groups of developers and two groups of apps meeting there there was all the next

⏹️ ▶️ step as that were reported to macos ten and they used what came to me was the coco a b i a it’s

⏹️ ▶️ akin and all that stuff in objective c this weird language and there were all the classic mac applications

⏹️ ▶️ that ported to macos ten carbon api which was like a cleaned up version of the classic mac

⏹️ ▶️ pi and for many many years in the early days of macos ten apple

⏹️ ▶️ supported both carbon and cocoa cocoa they had to support carbon because the os they tried the next step

⏹️ ▶️ based o s they tried to put out before that based on rhapsody was the non starter because basically microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ and doby said yeah we’re not rewriting our absent objective see i don’t know what you’re talking about so you either let us

⏹️ ▶️ run our existing aps pretty easily on your news or it’s not going anywhere so that’s why macos ten exists

⏹️ ▶️ and that’s why carbon exists because they had to make an os so that essentially adobe and microsoft could port

⏹️ ▶️ their are important applications with the minimum of fuss and all those applications use the classic

⏹️ ▶️ macos api not the next sepia right so you had carbon and cocoa and you had to keep

⏹️ ▶️ carbon around because all your important apps are in it and then this weird little developers writing things and cocoa with this weird

⏹️ ▶️ language objectives and those two frameworks existed together for a long time

⏹️ ▶️ and apple do w o c presentations and they would add a new control and it would come

⏹️ ▶️ to cocoa first and then carbon would get it later the dad a new bi and it would only be in carbon to come to cocoa later

⏹️ ▶️ cocoa people were writing api apps with cocoa and they would be annoyed that they had dropped down to carbon to

⏹️ ▶️ do something and vice versa and then there was the years where the apple would say and we’re bringing this feature

⏹️ ▶️ to both carbon and cocoa at the same time and the crowd would go wild and they’d be like yeah we don’t like the

⏹️ ▶️ we we don’t like the fighting we don’t like it when the other api gets it sooner because the next people

⏹️ ▶️ had big objective sea code bases and the classic mac people had big even bigger legacy code bases

⏹️ ▶️ for their dry applications like photoshop and office right and you know there was some cross pollination

⏹️ ▶️ happening there but at no point in these early years of maois ten did apple

⏹️ ▶️ say by the way just see you now objectives and apke that’s

⏹️ ▶️ the future and yet we had to do carbon because we kinda need photoshop and microsoft office

⏹️ ▶️ but even though those people say they’re not going to ever rewrite their apps using

⏹️ ▶️ ap kit don’t worry about it if we’re successful in ten years they’ll they

⏹️ ▶️ won’t be using carbon anymore but if they had said that people would have been like are you kidding me there

⏹️ ▶️ there you no one’s going to rewrite photoshop an objective c or to use act or

⏹️ ▶️ office an objective sea or like that’s not going to happen right so

⏹️ ▶️ you better keep carbon around forever but it turns out through confluence events

⏹️ ▶️ one apple was extremely successful starting around two thousand one fast forward

⏹️ ▶️ today i’d say apple’s done pretty well for itself it’s been successful with its various platforms

⏹️ ▶️ too the phone came out based entirely on an objective c based api that looks

⏹️ ▶️ a lot like abit called you like it and that made that skill set very popular and valuable

⏹️ ▶️ and then three big applications ended up being written in these weird ass cross platform

⏹️ ▶️ you ye things anyway like what the hell is photoshop like i’m sure under the covers it’s probably got

⏹️ ▶️ a bunch of objectives a kitty stuff but there you i framework is not standard api

⏹️ ▶️ controls and certainly isn’t carbon anymore and that’s the little you know cherry at the end of

⏹️ ▶️ this hey whatever happened the carbon anyway well after years and years of apple saying we support

⏹️ ▶️ both carbon and cocoa you know they’re both great apis use the one that’s best for your code

⏹️ ▶️ base blah blah blah blah it came time to do the sixty four bit transition and despite developing

⏹️ ▶️ promising and i believe even maybe shipping to some developers a sixty four bit version of carbon

⏹️ ▶️ actually someone made the call the very difficult call inside apple to say yeah we’ve changed

⏹️ ▶️ our mind carbon is not coming to sixty four bit we’re choosing this opportunity this bitterness

⏹️ ▶️ transition to say you’re not going to be able to write a carbon after six year but

⏹️ ▶️ not for technical reasons because we’ve got it it’s here it’s working but here’s here’s how we’re kind of it’s like someone who breaks

⏹️ ▶️ up with you by just being a jerk to you constantly till you break up with them right like instead of actually having the conversation

⏹️ ▶️ to say we’ve decided objectively and acid as the future i know this is hard

⏹️ ▶️ to hear but as the future instead of doing it they just said ah carbons not coming to sixty four bit we still support

⏹️ ▶️ carbon it’s great but it’s not coming to four bit and you know that’s the end of carbon because eventually all apple

⏹️ ▶️ for a bit eventually you can’t even run thirty stupid apps anymore right like the writing was on the wall so

⏹️ ▶️ everybody who had a carbon ap it’s like i didn’t we didn’t know how to tell you this

⏹️ ▶️ but objective see remember that weird thing with square brackets yeah you better learn that now

⏹️ ▶️ that’s your future and i think that that legacy of like how the they

⏹️ ▶️ handled that i think they learned from that because this presentation was them

⏹️ ▶️ trying to say in a nice way this is the direction we’re heading it

⏹️ ▶️ before we’re there we’re not there yet as marco amply pointed out we are not there yet but we’re saying

⏹️ ▶️ directionally we’re headed that way and that way is swift

⏹️ ▶️ and swift you in against swift is fairly well settled i think they did that pretty well too like the first year swift came out all

⏹️ ▶️ the w c slides had all their examples in both swift and objective c

⏹️ ▶️ but three years after that or whatever the writing was on the wall it’s going to be swift and now

⏹️ ▶️ objective see what’s that it’s the code that’s in the parts of our application you haven’t touched in a while swift is very well

⏹️ ▶️ established but the pi question was an open one especially on the mac this is where we talked

⏹️ ▶️ about it a lot because the mac had this weird thing where you had a kit and then you had catalysts which was

⏹️ ▶️ you eye kit on the mac and then you had swift you eye on the mac you have three b p is like how the hell am

⏹️ ▶️ i supposed to write a mac apple which one of these am i supposed to use because you know ap kit and swift you ye

⏹️ ▶️ be bad enough but now there’s you why it so does that mean like aki is going away but it’s being replaced by you

⏹️ ▶️ why kit and catalyst is the way for but then what the heck is swifty why am i so am i supposed to be mixing swifty

⏹️ ▶️ ye and you i hit on the mac and ignoring a kit or as a kit the one true way to do it and just mixing

⏹️ ▶️ swifty into that this slight answers that question directionally where we

⏹️ ▶️ are going on every single one of our platforms is swift and swifty eye and

⏹️ ▶️ unlike but the carbon thing where they just say oh and by the way it won’t be supported next year they had

⏹️ ▶️ what they said on this slide they didn’t say any of this was legacy that’s the subtext but a text was the object

⏹️ ▶️ to see api and you kid an interface builder great technologies they brought us to where we are today and they

⏹️ ▶️ will be supported for many many years in the future because you remember all these things objectives apco you in

⏹️ ▶️ interface builder they’re all sixty four bit there’s no big transition coming up on the side and

⏹️ ▶️ apple itself has huge amounts of code written in object to see afcat you iced using interface

⏹️ ▶️ builder they are probably the biggest legacy code base of this stuff especially now that like

⏹️ ▶️ you know photoshop and probably microsoft or whatever use them whatever weird o s framework you know in house things

⏹️ ▶️ that they they built right apple is the largest probably has the largest most important

⏹️ ▶️ codebase using these quote unquote legacy technologies so apple can’t get rid of any of

⏹️ ▶️ this stuff until unless they the port all those apps and that’s not going to happen for freaking ever so

⏹️ ▶️ don’t worry about appy road using ap kit not working in two years

⏹️ ▶️ or you eye kit or you know objective sea not running any more like those

⏹️ ▶️ aps will continue to function you’ll be able to continue to build them you have to be able to but directionally

⏹️ ▶️ we are going to swift you eye and swift and we are very far from

⏹️ ▶️ that this is just a big directional sign in this but i think it is a sign of maturity to

⏹️ ▶️ say to solve the question that we kept having which is like i don’t know what i’m supposed to do i have all these apis

⏹️ ▶️ available to me what is the path forward because the apple in all past years was like look

⏹️ ▶️ you can mix and match them and you can use them where appropriate and if your app has this you can use that and you can use this and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ like okay but but where do we go from here like i don’t know where to put my effort should i continue to build

⏹️ ▶️ you know fifty percent of my ap and you ike it and fifty per cent and swift you eye or should i just make it a

⏹️ ▶️ pure ap kitap with dollops of swift you ice sprinkled in it or you say

⏹️ ▶️ i can’t make my app a hundred percent swifty sold as supposed to do knowing that essentially

⏹️ ▶️ act you i at an interface builder are not going to be the way forward is

⏹️ ▶️ clarifying for everybody involved and it’s great for them to say that before those technologies are dropped because

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t think they’re going to be dropped for like a decade right so now there is clarity

⏹️ ▶️ on both sides apple can continue to do what i was doing but now we actually know which direction

⏹️ ▶️ they’re heading what they were doing is every year makes with you eye better and hopefully eventually you’ll be able

⏹️ ▶️ to use it to do everything your app can do but we’re so far from that now that even my dinky

⏹️ ▶️ stoopid little app that has one thing on the screen i can’t even implement switch glass in pure

⏹️ ▶️ swifty eye today like one and i thought like i start messing

⏹️ ▶️ with it again i’m like maybe i can you know let’s see if i can imagine some more swift you eye to this and then one of the first things

⏹️ ▶️ i saw in like one of the the w c lounge channels was the swifty eye channel someone asked a question

⏹️ ▶️ because just this year they said hey you can do a menu extra and swifty yes the little menu

⏹️ ▶️ icons that you have a new menu bar it’s called a menu extra you can now do them using swifty eye previously

⏹️ ▶️ you couldn’t you had to use the apa api to do that or the cattle is aprs or whatever but now you can do

⏹️ ▶️ it in swift you eye so someone was messing with this and they asked a question in the you know the wc

⏹️ ▶️ lounge hey can i have something different happen when an option click the menu bar icon and they said

⏹️ ▶️ no the feature doesn’t exist yet oh my gosh that’s a feature of my ap you option

⏹️ ▶️ click on things and it cycles the favor and the answer was not like oh here’s a work around or you’ve got to capture

⏹️ ▶️ the key stroke yourself or whatever it’s like you literally can’t do that and that that’s

⏹️ ▶️ the nature of declarative you ie if you don’t have a way to declare that’s the thing you want there is

⏹️ ▶️ no i’m just going to drop down to a kit and then catch the mouse events and look at the modifier keys which is

⏹️ ▶️ essentially how i do it right but there you know once you’ve dropped down to that level you’re

⏹️ ▶️ not in swifty anymore you’re an apk where’s all that stuff that’s an ap kit right

⏹️ ▶️ that’s before we get into all the other things we talk about and marco mentioned like having to bump the version so i’m

⏹️ ▶️ in the midst of adding a major feature in my dinky that has no features but anyway

⏹️ ▶️ a pretty big feature to map already to add this feature to map i’ve had to bump the minimum

⏹️ ▶️ less requirement from like ten point fifteen to twelve i’m not going to release

⏹️ ▶️ this one until thirteen is out because i don’t want to require the latest os for my stupid thing and it kind of annoys me that

⏹️ ▶️ i can’t have both of them out at the same time where like i continue to bug patch the old version and do the new one or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ but this dink yap that has no features i have to bump it’s a swift feature

⏹️ ▶️ i have to bump the minimum west version to twelve when i was adding features like going i have to bump it up oh now i have

⏹️ ▶️ to bump it up to eleven and now i have to bump it up to twelve i’m hoping i never have to bump it up to thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ but i’m just like saying what more can i implement and swift you eye in my in my dinky little lap

⏹️ ▶️ right that’s how far swifty eye is from being a full solution is it is so far away from it that

⏹️ ▶️ you can’t even do the most trivial application if it wants to be a well behaved mac application

⏹️ ▶️ which my thing tries to be like having sort of some depth of features it’s

⏹️ ▶️ not just like you know the food truck application or whatever some depth of features like oh who would

⏹️ ▶️ ever want a option click on a menu bar icon in the mac apple’s own menu borrow guns

⏹️ ▶️ the mac let you option click and do stuff it’s not an obscure feature good mac as do stuff

⏹️ ▶️ like that and it’s like oh no sorry there’s literally no way to do that can i get mouse events like no well

⏹️ ▶️ you tell us why you want mouse events and well implement it’s like no sometimes you need to interest events

⏹️ ▶️ sometimes i need to like have access to the responder chain or see what modifier keys are held down or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ why would you ever need to do that just tell us it will make us with you modifier for it it’s like you’re never going to be able to

⏹️ ▶️ you’ll be chasing your tail forever there needs to be some sort of underlying way to do that but anyway

⏹️ ▶️ the clarity of this presentation of the state of the union was directional

⏹️ ▶️ apple is headed here now developers you know what we’re trying to do

⏹️ ▶️ we haven’t done it yet we’re not saying we’ve done it yet but you know what we’re trying to do

⏹️ ▶️ and so if you’re going to make decisions based on what apple is trying to do which is you know a good things like apple

⏹️ ▶️ tend to give you road maps but if you know what they’re trying to do then you can make

⏹️ ▶️ much smarter decisions about what you want to do in europe doesn’t make it any more possible for you to

⏹️ ▶️ make your app using swifty eye entirely in pop of the arm today but it lets you make decisions about

⏹️ ▶️ the future and i think this is this is a very mature thing for apple to do and i think you

⏹️ ▶️ haven’t seen a lot of people yelling about it because we’re glad to get some kind of roadmap

⏹️ ▶️ and unlike the carbon and cocoa error right if they’re not saying

⏹️ ▶️ like all your hard work from before throw it in the garbage and rewrite everything right that i

⏹️ ▶️ think we’re all kind of used to the way apple does things in the more modern error to say i feel

⏹️ ▶️ secure in my investment in my giant application that’s based on a kitty you rocket or whatever that

⏹️ ▶️ apple’s going to protect that but in the meantime i know for all my future work here’s the direction

⏹️ ▶️ i’m going to be going in and i will continue to struggle to use swift

⏹️ ▶️ you eye as much as i can falling back to you i can ask it when i need to giving feedback to apple about

⏹️ ▶️ the shortcomings and together we will continue that cycle but now the directionality is clear

⏹️ ▶️ now i know that we’re not going to perpetually have swift you eyelid on top of another

⏹️ ▶️ mournful featured api that’s like the real thing under the covers

⏹️ ▶️ yeah i don’t know i’m a i’m a bit of a swiss eye apologist

⏹️ ▶️ because i do think there’s a lot to like there but it’s been quite frustrating

⏹️ ▶️ because the two or three things that have been delivered in this in this release

⏹️ ▶️ at least at a glance and i’ve only spent a little bit of time looking at it so far but at a glance

⏹️ ▶️ the none of these things work for masquerade like they’re they’re exactly what i need

⏹️ ▶️ for masquerade but for various uninteresting reasons they just don’t get me a hundred per cent

⏹️ ▶️ of the way there so for all of these these two or three things that i’m looking at i’m probably going to have to

⏹️ ▶️ continue to use my god awful hacks this is sounding familiar marco i don’t mean that to be insulting i’m just saying like you

⏹️ ▶️ know i have this pile of my own pile of god awful hacks and and i don’t want them there

⏹️ ▶️ i’d rather use the hashtag blessed way of doing things but for whatever reason it just isn’t a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ percent i have my own you know you can’t write click kind of scenarios and situations and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ it’s frustrating even though so much about swift you eye i really do like

⏹️ ▶️ quite a bit and i really do admire what they’re trying to do with it

⏹️ ▶️ but like both of you have said they’re just they’re they’re not quite there yet and i don’t know how long

⏹️ ▶️ it’s going to take but we’re certainly not there yet yeah i think there’s going to be a long tail of like

⏹️ ▶️ you know if if we if the goal state is oh there is no sort of low level api there

⏹️ ▶️ is no apk or you i it under there he’s like you know eventually if those apis will eventually

⏹️ ▶️ go away and it’ll just be swift you eye right but if it’s just swift you eye and if

⏹️ ▶️ swift you eyes declare it and if it doesn’t have a way to do the thing you’re stuck like there’s lots of weird things you can’t do like

⏹️ ▶️ give examples from switch glass which is little a little pallet of icons lets you switch between applications

⏹️ ▶️ i have a bunch of weird ass invisible windows floating around there so like when

⏹️ ▶️ you move the pallet off the edge of the screen you can still slam the cursor against the edge of the screen

⏹️ ▶️ and click and you look like you’re missing the pallet but you’re actually hitting like the empty space in it in the edge

⏹️ ▶️ of the screen that’s an invisible window that i own and i transfer that click to the icon that you didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ click on same thing with activation like with the auto hiding thing there’s an auto hide region

⏹️ ▶️ and a bunch of invisible windows window size and shape a certain size that when you

⏹️ ▶️ go when your mouth enters them that thing slides out all that stuff like being able to have

⏹️ ▶️ a low level api to make invisible windows and to take events that happen in those invisible windows

⏹️ ▶️ like to sort of intercept low level events that happen in those invisible windows and chuck those events

⏹️ ▶️ to a different responder chain and have it be as if you had clicked on the button

⏹️ ▶️ in a whole different thing like swift you have no facility to do that swift you it doesn’t let you take like

⏹️ ▶️ controls and let them span multiple windows like it’s just like that that plumbing

⏹️ ▶️ is obviously under there sort of event tracking and everything but you don’t have access to that plumbing or at least you

⏹️ ▶️ don’t in any sort of you know reasonable way whereas apke is based on that plumbing everything you do in akin

⏹️ ▶️ is like that the afcat has fundamental you know major building blocks that are all about

⏹️ ▶️ capturing an event capturing event the responder chain instantiating

⏹️ ▶️ windows styling those windows moving them around like that is how

⏹️ ▶️ a kit is built and that is not how swifty eye is built so using apk

⏹️ ▶️ to run a big swifty eye view with a bunch of apc crap around it i can do that

⏹️ ▶️ because of the interoperability but if you took away aka my aptos doesn’t work any more right or it’s worse

⏹️ ▶️ like oh sorry you can’t do that because swift you i can’t you know take events from one window and check

⏹️ ▶️ them into another in fact we don’t have events at all you just to tell me some state that’s changing and you know it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ i do worry that they’ll sort of get to the ninety percent solution

⏹️ ▶️ were normal regular aps even the ones that let your option click on menu bar icons those you

⏹️ ▶️ can do in swift you i but if you want to do something a little bit outside that tough luck we don’t want your apps

⏹️ ▶️ on the mac any more kind of like it is on ios not to slam ios here but there’s a whole bunch of apps that are possible

⏹️ ▶️ on the map mac that are not possible on iris for examples decided we don’t want that

⏹️ ▶️ kind of app on our phones right sometimes it’s for good reasons but sometimes it’s just like oh we don’t want that like

⏹️ ▶️ system extension tile app type applications or applications that you know jailbreak type applications

⏹️ ▶️ to put a little floating thing on your screen like apple’s accessibility controls why gain a third party app to that

⏹️ ▶️ now that’s not something we want in the same way that for a long time apple didn’t want third party keyboards

⏹️ ▶️ on the phone so it’s not like this we don’t progress in that area but i do worry that the switch to swift you

⏹️ ▶️ eye five ten years from now will further narrow the types of applications

⏹️ ▶️ that are possible in the mac and that will be said for me thanks to our sponsors this week member full

⏹️ ▶️ green chef and trade coffee and thanks to our members who support us directly you can join

⏹️ ▶️ eight p f m slash join we’ll talk to you next week

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ now the show is over they

⏹️ ▶️ didn’t even mean to begin because it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ it was accidental john didn’t do any research

⏹️ ▶️ marco and casey wouldn’t let him because it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ it was accidental but you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ notes at p dot fm and if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ twitter you could follow them c a s

⏹️ ▶️ e y l i assess that’s k c s m a r c

⏹️ ▶️ a r m ant marco men s

⏹️ ▶️ i r c u siracusa is

⏹️ ▶️ accidental

John’s mouse

⏹️ ▶️ so you know my deal with my microsoft mouse where it was barking and i bought a back up on and

⏹️ ▶️ i got my old one replaced or whatever do you have more mice or more

⏹️ ▶️ keyboards or more cheese graters i’m assuming cheese graters cheese graters for sure

⏹️ ▶️ this mouse though goodness like i like this mouse but i have

⏹️ ▶️ two of them now and both of them have something wrong with them that annoys me

⏹️ ▶️ and i don’t know what to do about it i don’t think i can keep buying this like ninety nine dollar mouse but it annoys

⏹️ ▶️ me right so i can’t at this point i don’t i can’t even keep track of which is the one that was replaced and which is the one

⏹️ ▶️ that i bought brand new as a backup but it doesn’t really matter one of them the

⏹️ ▶️ the scroll wheel which used to be dead silent now goes

⏹️ ▶️ like you know starts making noise some some squirrels always make noise but this one isn’t supposed to make noise

⏹️ ▶️ one of the things i liked about it was very smooth and very quiet and now makes noise that’s one mouse’s problem

⏹️ ▶️ and you know it’s like all right well want you to use the other one the other mouse boy

⏹️ ▶️ does this thing here i’ll put a link in the chat this is obviously massively

⏹️ ▶️ amplified for you to get this noise but it is the weirdest thing ever

⏹️ ▶️ and i think this is the brand new one but i can’t be entirely sure so play

⏹️ ▶️ that and you can listen to it

⏹️ ▶️ so this sound that hopefully margaret has put into the show

⏹️ ▶️ so you could hear it here’s what it is i have a keyboard tray it’s actually a metal keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ tray it’s very sturdy and the mouse is on the right side of the keyboard tray on a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ pad right when i type on the keyboard or when i tap my

⏹️ ▶️ fingers on the keyboard tray but obviously the way i encounter is when i type on the keyboard every time i hit

⏹️ ▶️ a keystroke yes there is the sound of the keystroke thump you know my finger hitting the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ and the keyboard the game with my macpro right but also something

⏹️ ▶️ inside my mouth rattles so the audio you heard that low

⏹️ ▶️ frequency thump that is my finger pressing on the keyboard tray that’s the low frequency

⏹️ ▶️ every other frequency you hear that high pitched rattle thing that’s

⏹️ ▶️ coming from my mouse with every single keystroke that mouse makes like

⏹️ ▶️ a death rattle and striking the upper walls like having key click on on your phone right

⏹️ ▶️ so i’ve so these are my choices noisy scroll we also every time i scroll

⏹️ ▶️ or every time i type some sitting inside the mouse rattles and i spent so long trying

⏹️ ▶️ to forget what the deal with this thing was here’s what i finally track it down to which doesn’t really help me much i

⏹️ ▶️ can eliminate the sound by unplugging that mouse from the u usb

⏹️ ▶️ cable so it’s not like a physical like rattle it’s

⏹️ ▶️ it is but i think it’s a physical rattle having to do with the connector you know what i mean like

⏹️ ▶️ the connector is loose or something like it so if i plug it from the u s p table no noise but

⏹️ ▶️ i need it to be plugged at the u s p table one because i want a wired mouse and two because the bluetooth and this thing

⏹️ ▶️ is terrible and it’s incredibly jumpy and the bluetooth my mac is too far away from whatever so i need it to be plugged

⏹️ ▶️ in i can’t it’s not an optional thing that’s one of the reasons i like this mouse is it has a nice cord and a tiny little

⏹️ ▶️ connector and everything like it’s a wired mouse i have a desktop computer it’s a wired mouse no you know

⏹️ ▶️ no interference perfect responsiveness wired mouse great but it makes that terrible noise so

⏹️ ▶️ i have to i keep swapping back and forth and like which noise is annoying me more

⏹️ ▶️ and i don’t know what to do because this is the mouse that i like after trying tons and tons of different mice

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t want to buy a third one what’s going to be wrong with the third one i did look up you two videos

⏹️ ▶️ of how to crack these things open it’s like if something’s rattling there i’ll find it you know

⏹️ ▶️ you now i’ll shove a piece of gum in there or whatever i’ll like i’ll find the rattle

⏹️ ▶️ and i’ll fix it but like it’s a bunch of plastic clips it doesn’t look like it’s easy to open

⏹️ ▶️ i haven’t gotten to the point where i’ve torn the thing open but i’m getting real close so i just wanted to update everybody though

⏹️ ▶️ our situation is pretty grim over here two mice both of which make annoying noises and

⏹️ ▶️ i don’t know what to do i’m so sorry john ah that is

⏹️ ▶️ very sad

Casey’s Verizon ad

⏹️ ▶️ um if you’ll permit me i’d like to do a brief public service announcement that is

⏹️ ▶️ going to be slightly relevant for people who do not live in verizon land but is mostly for people who

⏹️ ▶️ live in the united states particularly people who can have verizon fios which i know is a vanishingly small

⏹️ ▶️ amount of people i was on a and so i went to at

⏹️ ▶️ and t from verizon when the iphone not not when it first came out but when the three g s was new

⏹️ ▶️ we ported our numbers which at the time was a very odd thing to do in america like it was just

⏹️ ▶️ starting to become popular and we ported our numbers from verizon to at and t so we could get so i could

⏹️ ▶️ get an iphone and erin had some sort of ridiculous phone and then quickly got iphone thereafter

⏹️ ▶️ and that was in like two thousand eight or thereabouts and we’ve been on eighteen tea for years and

⏹️ ▶️ engine years ever since we were we were on a grandfathered plan where we still had

⏹️ ▶️ metered data so we had to limit how much data we could use a month but uh but

⏹️ ▶️ it rolled over from month to month like minutes used to do back in the day you know with how much time you spent

⏹️ ▶️ on the phone you know you would get like a hundred minute or whatever and then if you didn’t use them all you know maybe your minutes would roll over or

⏹️ ▶️ our data rolled over however because it was a grandfather’s plan they refused to give us five g access

⏹️ ▶️ then out of the blue and supposedly they told us this was coming although i don’t

⏹️ ▶️ think they did out of the blue they raised that raised our prices by twelve dollars a month basically

⏹️ ▶️ as a stick to get us off of the grandfather old plants and get us on their new fancy and limited plans

⏹️ ▶️ cool and i’d already been contemplating switching to verizon and switching back to verizon

⏹️ ▶️ for a couple of reasons first of all i’d like five g axis second of all i’d like that super sweet

⏹️ ▶️ millimetre wave or whatever it’s called super high speed access which will talk about a little bit more and will

⏹️ ▶️ be interesting for those of you who don’t live in america and i really thought i could save money

⏹️ ▶️ and so i’d been getting physical mailings over the last few months that hey you’re you’re a fios customer

⏹️ ▶️ this is your verizon’s internet service and cable service you’re files customer if you

⏹️ ▶️ jump your your cellular to verizon wireless you can legitimately save

⏹️ ▶️ thirty dollars a month if you bring your your

⏹️ ▶️ cell phone stuff over to files like it’s twenty dollars i think it’s ten or twenty dollars by default

⏹️ ▶️ if you have a gigabit internet which i do and then there’s like a bonus right now of an additional twenty dollars a month

⏹️ ▶️ so i am saving and and i’m i just received my first file skill since this happened i’m saving forty

⏹️ ▶️ bucks a month by having verizon miles and verizon piles which is super cool the other interesting

⏹️ ▶️ thing is some of their packages that they have now include disney plus which i was paying

⏹️ ▶️ for separately for like eight bucks a month or whatever it is and what they don’t really make clear on the websites

⏹️ ▶️ that you can mix and match their different unlimited plan and so there’s there’s this the plan that has disney plus

⏹️ ▶️ and also has hulu and espn plus and apple arcade which i’m already paying for separately but i wasn’t getting

⏹️ ▶️ holo or espn plus and now i get that which is kind of cool but they also have different plan that doesn’t have all the entertainment

⏹️ ▶️ stuff but you get half off on a watch or a tablet or what have you and if you remember i wind and moaned for

⏹️ ▶️ like six years about how how i was paying for my apple watch like fifteen bucks a month because of fees and taxes and so on

⏹️ ▶️ and so forth well because i don’t really run anymore i thought well i don’t really need my apple watch to have

⏹️ ▶️ service but my eye pad it would be cool if that had service and so i’m getting that for only like ten bucks a month

⏹️ ▶️ i think if i’m not mistaken so all told i am once the initial bill where they absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ fleece you with you know connection fees and activation fees and so on and so forth i’m going to be saving a

⏹️ ▶️ whole pile of money and then if you do it right now they’re giving you five hundred

⏹️ ▶️ dollar gift cards per phone that you bring if you bring your own phone

⏹️ ▶️ so hypothetically i’m getting a thousand dollars of gift arising gift cards that i can

⏹️ ▶️ use for my service i’m getting like a year of service for free so you’re a sponsor this week

⏹️ ▶️ by verizon on my right i’m saying this is like that kino thing where you two are all angry because they kept saying

⏹️ ▶️ verizon verizon five g five g it’s apparently it worked man

⏹️ ▶️ because i’m saving a pile of money and i’m super excited about you save it extra quickly thanks to verizon’s new five

⏹️ ▶️ g ultrafast wire it’s funny you bring that up because

⏹️ ▶️ there are so i’ve looked into a little bit what this millimeter wave thing is that

⏹️ ▶️ they did talk about that i think that same year that you’re referring to wave yeah that that’s going to

⏹️ ▶️ be the new name i wish you hadn’t said that because now i cannot unheard it so as it turns out don’t

⏹️ ▶️ be creepy there’s what appears to be a couple of mm wave towers in downtown

⏹️ ▶️ richmond one of the places that i would occasionally park my my body

⏹️ ▶️ which happens to be a park fortress words there but one of the places i would

⏹️ ▶️ go to work that was not my home is a park that is within eye shot of the em

⏹️ ▶️ wave enabled tower and one of the things about wave is that you really don’t

⏹️ ▶️ get in wave service unless you can literally see the tower from where you’re standing well

⏹️ ▶️ with all that said because i’m a nerd and i’ve too much time on my hands i decided

⏹️ ▶️ to go before i even tried working there i tried to go to the in wave tower

⏹️ ▶️ and do a speed test just to see okay is this really as fast as people say and i’m not going to be

⏹️ ▶️ able to dig up the link but like when rube reviewed what was the iphone twelve maybe maybe it’s the thirteen

⏹️ ▶️ he found a wave tower in philly and he said no really it’s bananas fast

⏹️ ▶️ i was getting i’ve done two different tests against this tower once when i was legitimately working and once when i just

⏹️ ▶️ drove there christened both of these tests i was getting over two

⏹️ ▶️ gigabits down my my fibre optic

⏹️ ▶️ cable going to my house a physical cable going to my house tops out

⏹️ ▶️ at about a thousand megabits per second i’m looking at my speed test results

⏹️ ▶️ two thousand eighty six megabits per second from the freaking air

⏹️ ▶️ how amazing is that like that is bananas if i really want to download

⏹️ ▶️ something at leaving aside like the fact that there is eventually a cap on how much data i get despite its being

⏹️ ▶️ called unlimited i could probably do that faster through my telephone

⏹️ ▶️ in the in a park outside of richmond than i could at

⏹️ ▶️ my house with a gigabit fios connection like how bananas is that and by the way the upstream is two hundred negates

⏹️ ▶️ per second but nevertheless how bananas is that that is so freaking cool now granted

⏹️ ▶️ there are about three spaces in the rich and greater brighton area where this works but

⏹️ ▶️ if you’re willing to drive to one of those three spaces i just think that is freaking amazing that

⏹️ ▶️ being said despite all that they limit you to seven twenty piece streaming because reasons