715: Diner Lobster
29 Oct 2026Casey’s new iPhone Duo lifestyle, the MacBook Pro with PROLED XDR Display (which is a real product name), the new iPad Mini, and the launch of Marco’s fun new app.
Episode Description:
- Pre-show: Marco has a new toy
- 🗣️ ATP Holiday Store is here! 🗣️
- 🗣️ New ATP Member’s Special: ATP Insider: Time Management is here! 🗣️
- iPhone Duo first impressions
- New Apple announcements
- Monday: iPad Mini
- Tuesday: M6 iMac
- Tuesday: M6 MacBook Pro
- Wednesday: OLED MacBook Pro
- Mac Studio with 512 GB RAM
- Post-show: Marco’s new app, Fineliner
- Members-only ATP Overtime: Is Apple re-entering the server market??
Sponsored by:
- Granola: The AI notepad for back-to-back meetings
Become a member for ATP Overtime, ad-free episodes, member specials, and our early-release, unedited “bootleg” feed!
Chapters
- We always have a pre-show
- Duo acquisition
- ATP Store
- Special: Time Management
- iPhone Duo impressions
- Sponsor: Granola
- iPad Mini (A20 Pro)
- iMac (M6)
- MacBook Pro (M6)
- MacBook Pro with PROLED XDR Display
- Ending theme
- Fineliner 🖼️
We always have a pre-show
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do we have a pre-show or do we want to just jump into the administrative? I know we don't typically do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we always have a preview.
⏹️ ▶️ John pre-show we have, it has to be short.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well done, John. Well done.
Duo acquisition
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, Marco, I hear there's some rumors. There's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some rumbling in the streets that you might have been able to come up with a toy for yourself.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That sounds really disturbing. Oh, come now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you're not making it better. Are you talking about a duo? Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. Okay. I didn't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were talking about either.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco y'all. Y'all dirty.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wow. Every listener is going to. Okay. All right. All right. All right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, moving on. Did you procure an iPhone duo? Is that the toy that you've
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do have an iPhone duo. I'm mad about it, but I do have.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you want to expand on that or do you want to save it for later?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ever since Saturday morning, you know, when it said, when Apple said, like, check back
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on this day for in-store pickup, I've had one of those stock checking sites that pulls it every few seconds.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And eventually, like, you know, something will pop up it'll alert me. And it makes, you know, all my devices make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sound and everything's you know blinking and sirens are going off and Casey's garage door is closing and like all these different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things happen. Then, of course, I rush to the computer and go, go, go. You know, I have everything preset and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then, oh, it's gone. Oh, God. And then that happened all weekend.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So all Saturday, all Sunday. All like that would just every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco couple hours, one would pop up in stock somewhere in the New York metro area. I had a very wide search radius
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that covered 12 different Apple stores. It would get to the cart and it would try it and then, oh, it's gone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco After living like that for 48 hours and continual
⏹️ ▶️ Marco failures, I finally got one, except it had to be the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco two terabyte model.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, my word. There was a time that I would look at a $3,500 laptop and be like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey woof, that's expensive. Oh.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, and by the way, the business reps. So the business rep
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was dealing with is very nice, but kept saying, you know, oh, I'm going to see if I can, you know, hold something aside or figure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out something for you. And of course, like every day, the answer was, nope, sorry, nope, sorry, nope, sorry.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Meanwhile, I go to pick up this phone, and it's a business expense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because this is literally all of what I do. But, you know, in order to get the fastest checkout possible,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just put it on my personal cards. The first thing I ask is, like, hey, as I'm picking it up, can I put this on a business card?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope, can't change it. Of course. And then the person I was picking up on was like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, you're buying it for a business. Why didn't you just have the business reps hold it for you?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And I, and I,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of course, I, you know, unloaded the entire story on this poor woman who was just trying to check me out.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And uh and she was like, oh, well, here, the business reps here have been pulling stock aside for their customers since launch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What? Uh-huh. What? To hear again
⏹️ ▶️ Marco another way that this entire process has been like tilted and a little unfair and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little irregular, it just irritated
⏹️ ▶️ Casey me so much. I'm so frustrated. I'm frustrated. And this doesn't even affect me. And I'm frustrated.
ATP Store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we have some administravia to take care of. First of all, let me remind you that the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ATP store is open for the holidays. I will do my normal spiel in a moment.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But, John, can you give us the Nickel Tour real quick?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, sure. The products that we've got. So, we've got our two Pride t-shirts that are Pride
⏹️ ▶️ John and Trans Pride variations of our logo, where all of our profits are going to charity for those shirts
⏹️ ▶️ John to Trans Lifeline and the Transgender Law Center. So, you should check those out. We've got our A18
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro shirt for the chip that we forgot from the MacBook Neo, which we sold shirts for last sale. And then, of course,
⏹️ ▶️ John we've got the M5 Ultra and the M5 Ultra Interposer shirts. We brought back the Palm Graffiti shirt as
⏹️ ▶️ John well. And then we've got our usual stuff. Also, don't forget that if you have a zip hoodie and you always want one that's not black,
⏹️ ▶️ John now you can get ones that aren't black. They come in white and gray and bluish and so on and so forth. And finally,
⏹️ ▶️ John the ATP Polo, which we're basically selling for cost, because the cost of it has gone up so much,
⏹️ ▶️ John and this may be the last time we sell them. So, if you want an ATP polo, get it back. And the one thing I want to say about the sale
⏹️ ▶️ John question for you two: hopefully, you have not looked at the sale pages. What do you think our best-selling products
⏹️ ▶️ John are? And what do you think our worst-selling product is?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey For best-selling, I would guess it's actually the Pride and/or Trans shirts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because we got notifications almost instantly that we had print
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or pre-ordered enough that they will get printed. Print is probably not the word I'm looking for, but you know what I mean?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I was very, very excited by. That was the, I think, the first two products that we crossed that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey threshold, which made me very happy. Um, worst-selling product, uh, probably the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey polo because it's a fortune and nobody likes them but me. That's not literally true. People write me all the time and say
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they like them, but compared to the other things, I think nobody likes them but me. And the polo is also a hajillion
⏹️ ▶️ Casey dollars. That's what I'm saying. And it's again, we apologize, we wish it wasn't, but unfortunately, that is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey case. What do you think, Marco?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because we're not selling a short-sleeve version of the regular ATP logo. That normally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that's almost always the top seller.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John so yes we are.
⏹️ ▶️ John What do you mean we're not selling a short-sleeve version of it? Yes, we are.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are selling that. Oh, oh, I was just okay. I was looking at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash store. I thought it was only the long-sleeve one because that's that's the graphic being displayed there.
⏹️ ▶️ John The graph, the pictures changed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, okay. All right. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey time dining with us, Marco? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was going. So, okay, that's probably number one, but I think Casey's probably right for this time. I think I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco guessing the ATP Pride, the rainbow version, I'm guessing that is number one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I'm guessing last place is the A18 Pro. My second guess for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco last place is Graffiti.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right. So, our top sellers are, in fact, the Pride shirts. They've been close to neck and neck, although I
⏹️ ▶️ John do think the regular Pride one is out ahead now. So, that's a good guess because those are the most special shirts and people
⏹️ ▶️ John want to support charity. And by the way, as many people have noted, you can just click the links in the store page and donate directly to the
⏹️ ▶️ John charities. They get way more money if you just donate
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco directly to them than buying a shirt.
⏹️ ▶️ John Of course, you don't get a shirt then, but just saying, if you want to donate, you can just donate directly. The
⏹️ ▶️ John worst seller by far, by an astronomical amount, by so much that I think the shirt may not
⏹️ ▶️ John get printed, although we'll see A18 Pro. Nobody likes it, nobody
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco likes it. They don't like an
⏹️ ▶️ John A chip, and even though it's got the A in our logo and everything, A18 Pro, the MacBook Neo was so
⏹️ ▶️ John three months ago, whenever the hell it was, we have currently sold six, and one of
⏹️ ▶️ John those is me. Why did you buy one? I buy one of every shirt,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John or not every shirt,
⏹️ ▶️ John but like anytime there's a new design, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey usually get one. Same, so I'll probably be in for one as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but anyway, A18 Pro, unloved, very unloved. People are liking the polo because they're trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John get it. Graffiti's doing pretty well. Um, yeah, um, A18 Pro. So, anyway, just like I said
⏹️ ▶️ John with the gray uh MacBook Neo shirt, if you want an A18 Pro shirt, go get like six of your friends to
⏹️ ▶️ John buy one, otherwise, it's not getting printed.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you are listening to this and you think to yourself, man, I would love to have some ATP merchandise
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the holidays to either gift myself or gift someone else. What you need to do is, if you're
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the car, turn on your blinker because you're not a jerk and pull over to the side of the road. If you're walking,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey scoot yourself to the side of the roadway or sidewalk that you're on. Go to ATP.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash store and go and take care of it now. Don't be the person
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that says, Oh my goodness, I missed it. I can't believe I'm that person, but this time I'm that person. Don't
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be that person, you're better than that. ATP.fm/store. Sale ends November 8th,
⏹️ ▶️ John November 8th. Do not wait until November 7th. Do not wait until November 8th. And by the way, don't forget
⏹️ ▶️ John if you're an ATP member, go to your member page, get the code for 15% off. If you want to become a member, you
⏹️ ▶️ John should do so and get 15% off.
Special: Time Management
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, the other bit of administrivia. We have a new member special. So, hey, if you were interested in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey joining as a member, you can do that at atp.fm slash join. And not only will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you get a little bit of a discount on the merchandise, but you'll also get this member special.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And John, do you get other member specials or only the new ones?
⏹️ ▶️ John You get all the member specials all the way back in time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All the way back in time. So this member special is ATP Insider Time Management,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which was the classic Casey episode where I didn't come up with the idea. A listener did,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I said at the beginning, because I'm an idiot and I never learn from my mistakes, oh, we don't really have that much to say about this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do we? And I think this might have been one of the longest ones we've done so far. so We're
⏹️ ▶️ John management. That's why.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it turns out. So if you're interested in that, atp.fm slash join, check out ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Insider Time Management. Turns out there's more there than we thought.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I believe that was our 47th member special. So there's a big
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey was it really?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would have guessed half that. Great.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John The Q ⁇ A was our
⏹️ ▶️ John 46th, and I think the Q&A was the previous one. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah. Wow. Today I learned.
iPhone Duo impressions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, let's do some topics. And obviously, there's a bunch of new things that we need to talk about. There's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey also some fun things from Marco in the after-show. There's a little teaser for you, but uh we
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have something important to talk about, which is Marco and I have gotten iPhone duos.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Obviously, we just talked about that to a degree a little bit ago.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of, sort of. uh But Marco and I have iPhone duos, and we have some things to say. Marco, would you like me to start? Would you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like to start? Or how do you want to handle this?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'll start because mine is going to probably be shorter. I actually just decided to set it up as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a test phone only. To be honest, my initial impression of it is not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I want to use it as my personal phone. I will see if that changes throughout the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco year because there are things about it. So, and I'm sorry if I step on what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you were going to say about any of this stuff, Casey.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine. What I thought was going to be an issue with it is an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco issue with it. It is heavy. Touch ID sucks. It really does want
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be used right-handed when it's closed. It is weird that you have basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco three different sized software keyboards that you have to learn to type on. Although I do enjoy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the additional space of the front screen keyboard because it's so wide. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also, it is a very, very difficult phone to use one-handed. And the kind of lifestyle
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have, first of all, I keep it in a pocket. As I mentioned last episode, I think if you keep it in a bag,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's substantially more compelling. But if you keep it in a pocket, it's going to feel more burdensome because it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just so much heavier. Unless you are already a Pro Max user, in which case, go ahead because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that's about the same weight. But if you were just a regular Pro user, it's going to feel really heavy to you. One-handed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use, if you just want to quickly take it out of a pocket, do something and put it back in.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is really not what this phone is made for. This phone will fight you on that. And you're carrying around a big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco brick for that privilege. I'm definitely afraid I'm going to drop it. But also, I don't want
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to put a case on it because that would make it even bigger and bulkier. That being said, I did get to play
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the Apple Folio case, the one with the kickstand and the front cover on the screen. It felt very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice. And I saw somebody online who just cut it on its spine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it was only the back half, which that's you know, a $130 thing to cut.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that honestly looked pretty good. And I think would actually improve the grips potentially without too much bulk.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the kickstand would be useful. So if I carried a duo, I think I would probably try that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But ultimately, it feels like I'm going to drop it. I think the ergonomics of it are all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrong for me. And that's not to say it's wrong for everybody, but I think it's all wrong for me. That being
⏹️ ▶️ Marco said, I also am tempted to try it because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is fun. It reminds me in many ways of the very first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Air, which everyone rags on because it was really slow and it did
⏹️ ▶️ Marco overheat and the SSD was stupidly priced and slower. But I had that first MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air and I loved it, even though at times I hated it. And I think it might
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also evoke similar feelings as the 12-inch MacBook. That was a computer that was very frustrating in a lot of ways,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but also people did love it in other ways. And I think what the duo is doing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's putting a lot of novelty and fun into the iPhone, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has gotten pretty boring. And not to say that that's bad, but the iPhone is just a very mature product,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the regular slab phone. It's a very mature product. It doesn't change that frequently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or in very big ways. We've had the same thing forever. It very much feels like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a foundation of our technology lives. It just never changes. This changes it in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big way. People are doing fun stuff. People are having fun with it. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if you look at it rationally, almost no one should buy this thing. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes you can do things for irrational reasons. Sometimes you can buy something because it's fun.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And sometimes being on the cutting edge of something has a lot of sharp edges and downside.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think this is one of those times that this phone, if you want to live with this phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as your phone, there's going to be days where you regret that choice. It's also so different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and new and exciting and fun that I think many people will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco choose to take that trade-off. And I don't know that I will, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am honestly tempted just for the fun alone. But boy, is it heavy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and awkward and lots of other challenges.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Writing with a pencil on the table is useless because the whole thing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco camera bomb.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There's a lot of things that I thought would be great about it that aren't. But there's other stuff about it that that I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn't even know or realize, but that ends up being kind of cool. So it's fun to play
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with. I don't, Again, I don't think it's going to be for me, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that having just a year of disrupted fun, just like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that first MacBook Air, even though we all knew its shortcomings, a lot of us still bought
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it and used it and liked it a lot of the time. That's what this is going to be like for a lot of people. And it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not that you are denying the shortcomings or blind to them. No, we see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the shortcomings. We accept them and we use it anyway. That's what this kind of feeling is. I think that's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really largely going to happen with the duo. It's already happening. But for a lot of people,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco including, again, probably me, for a lot of us, we're like, you know what, my phone is not a place where I want
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have that level of disruption and the fun is probably not worth it for me. But I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco glad it's there for the people who decide differently on that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I'll give you my quick take, too. I tried them out in the Apple store for a little while just to see what they're like.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's an impressive piece of hardware. I would take one for free in a second
⏹️ ▶️ John if anyone wants to send me one. It's really cool looking. It's fun to play with. I could
⏹️ ▶️ John definitely find a use for the screen. Both screens look really good, both
⏹️ ▶️ John the glossy one on the outside and the matte one on the inside. And it's nice being able to compare the two different approaches. In an Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John Store, the matte screen does amazing. Of course, the sun is not in the Apple Store, so there's that.
⏹️ ▶️ John But even in the Apple Store with all its point light sources and everything, looks really good.
⏹️ ▶️ John I love, as I said in the last program, I love what they did with the very constrained environment for two-part
⏹️ ▶️ John multitasking. If you've got a phone that splits in half, it just naturally, the interface flows right out of the
⏹️ ▶️ John fact that the phone bends in the middle. I think if I had one, it would be more of like
⏹️ ▶️ John an around-the-house phone. And when I left the house, I wouldn't want to take that with me for all the reasons Marco mentioned. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I came away very impressed with the hardware and thought the software was pretty good too.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. I got thoughts. I picked up mine at 8 a.m. at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Short Pump. I think I was the first person to walk out with one. There
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a very long line for walk-ins. I would guess at least 50
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people, maybe upwards of 100. I'm terrible at estimating crowds, though, so take that with a grain of salt. I was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the third person in line. The first person I overheard being told, I'm sorry, your pickup appointment
⏹️ ▶️ Casey isn't until January 25 or whatever. And I felt very bad for them. But then there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was one person in front of me and me, and I'm pretty sure I happened to walk out with mine first. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I've been using it since then. And I think my executive summary is something I said
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to my friend Adam on Mastodon. And his reply, I think, was also very helpful.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey My executive summary is, and this is what I said, this device is mostly me being annoyed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by things I didn't expect and not annoyed by the things I did expect. To which Adam
⏹️ ▶️ Casey replied, I'm serious when I say I haven't had this much fun in a long time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that's a summary. So let's talk about it. First of all, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey nominally do this sort of thing for a living twice over. I am an iOS developer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I flap my gums about Apple stuff for a living. I have yet to figure out the right fucking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way to transfer phones. And it's a Casey problem. I think it's a Casey problem. No,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That's an Apple problem.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey word. So this year, what I thought I would do, because last several years, I did a phone-to-phone transfer, and I've tried
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all sorts of cockamamie schemes in order to like, have Ethernet connections between them where I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get like a USB-C like pass-through Ethernet thing so I can power them and have Ethernet.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I've tried that. I've tried like using a Thunderbolt 5 cable. Maybe it was 4, but you get the point. Like a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really nice, like $100 plus dollar Thunderbolt cable. I've tried that. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey haven't done iCloud Backup because I don't like that because then you get this phone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you can nominally use, but then you can't do anything with it for like two hours, which arguably is what I ended
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up doing anyway. We'll get there. But I probably should try iCloud Backup the next time I do this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don't typically care for that. So this time what I did was, is I did a backup the night
⏹️ ▶️ Casey before to my computer and restored the day of.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I just want to point out that every time we tell our phone transfer stories, whatever method we didn't use,
⏹️ ▶️ John everyone writes in and says, you should have used method you didn't use because I used it and it works for me. And a very popular
⏹️ ▶️ John one is, hey, you guys used to do iTunes backup and then you stopped. You should never stop. You should definitely do that. So you're taking
⏹️ ▶️ John a tour of all the things. Eventually, you'll do an iCloud backup. Although, Marco's done iCloud backup too. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John we have we have had icloud backup represented in our cycle. Here's the problem. Like, no matter which one we do,
⏹️ ▶️ John if it screws up, that's our experience. And even though people say you should have used
⏹️ ▶️ John other method, next year we'll use other method. And then people will say we should have used the method we used the previous year. So it's just
⏹️ ▶️ John all I'm saying is this should be much more reliable.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Concur. Um, What I did was I did a backup and then I did a restore. And that, for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey most part, went really well. The problem I ran into is because I'm out of shape when it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey comes to this dance. And I didn't do the backup immediately
⏹️ ▶️ Casey before the restore. And that's what I should have done. Let me tell you why. What I should have done is unpaired
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my watch and then done the backup. And so then when I restore the backup,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I repair the watch. I didn't do that. And holy, that was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a complete goddamn nightmare. Getting my watch to go from one phone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the other ended up being I had to unpair it from the old phone, repair it to the new one.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then when I did that, what I ended up seeing after I did a restore, which is what should
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have happened and everything looked like it should have been good. But then I start, you know, it says your watch is restored.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You're good to go. But then I go to use the watch and every app, including every
⏹️ ▶️ Casey system app, except like settings and a couple, maybe one or one or two others, every single app,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey including the system apps, is trying to download again, which I assumed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey meant something was screwed up. I later found out, nope, that's just how Apple Watch Restore works
⏹️ ▶️ Casey these days. I had no idea. So again, some of this is on me, for sure. I get that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it's just bad, Apple. It's just bad. I want to have one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone turn in to the other phone. I don't want to have to redo 800 fucking prompts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about location services and this and that and this and that. No,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of these ways, one of these ways should be, I would like my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey new toy to look like my old toy. Please and thank you. That's all you need to know. That is everything you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to know. Which like is probably a pretty common need, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like doesn't everyone face this whenever they upgrade their phone? Yeah, it's just so, and I know everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey says this every year. And here I am again, and now it's October, not September, but here I am again doing this slightly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey delayed September tradition of Apple, for the love of Christ, can we please put a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of effort into this? Please, please, can we put some effort into this? Real-time follow-up, I just got a text
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from Aaron. What are you yelling about? I am not kidding.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, my word. Anyway, so once the watch transfer was done, then that was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly a decent time after that. So let's talk about it. I'm going to hit this kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all, It's going to be a little scattershot, and I apologize about that, but I did take a bunch of notes. I want to go through them. First of all,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is not a one-handed device. It just isn't. I'm a devout pop socket
⏹️ ▶️ Casey person, which I've actually mostly stopped doing on this phone because why? Because it's a two-handed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone. You say to yourself, oh, but Casey, the outer, the closed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey version is so wee and so little and so squat. And all of those things are true, except it's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really freaking wide. And reachability top to bottom is wonderful now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It's what I've wanted for years. But reachability side to side now sucks. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you're really stuck with this being a two-handed device, no matter how you slice it. So if
⏹️ ▶️ John As Neely Patel said, you can try different moves. And one of the things I did when I was in the Apple store, I said, can I open and
⏹️ ▶️ John close this with one hand? And the answer is, I can, but it's really hard. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John it's not something you'd want to rely on. Like, I'm just saying it's like a move. You got to learn a move.
⏹️ ▶️ John It is, it can be done. Don't say it can't be done. But boy, is it hard.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey To be clear, I'm not talking about opening and closing, which I don't think I've tried doing it one-handed yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I'm just trying it. It's tricky. Just using it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Just using the device one-handed.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. I thought the reachability wasn't that bad from the way I hold the phone with my right hand, but it's
⏹️ ▶️ John certainly worse than like a quote-unquote regular phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, it's worse laterally, but it's much better vertically.
⏹️ ▶️ John I meant laterally. It's the first day I was trying like, can I reach upper left corner, upper right corner, holding it right hand?
⏹️ ▶️ John I can reach. I have a pretty long thumb, and also the way I grip the phone, but it is harder.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So the reachability problem is different, but it's still a problem. For me,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is just my personal opinion. I am not trying to negate anyone else's, especially Marco's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey opinion. I don't find it to be that egregiously heavy. It's not light. I'm not saying it's light.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John You've had a max phone before, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have, but not in a couple of years. But that is a very fair point. But I did for a little while carry a max phone,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or for a year I carried a max phone, but that was like two or three years ago now.
⏹️ ▶️ John And to reiterate, the duo is five grams heavier than the current max phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So when it's closed, I wouldn't say it's light. I'm not trying to say it's light when it's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey closed. But I don't feel like it's egregiously heavy. Like many others other than Marco have also said, Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not standing alone in this. In fact, I think I'm the one by myself in this particular opinion.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I didn't think it was that. I expected it to be heavier, honestly. Now, I've never had a Max phone, and I think it
⏹️ ▶️ John is bulky, and I wouldn't want it in my pocket, but weight-wise, and they had it in the Apple Store. They had it set up
⏹️ ▶️ John right next to the Max. They had a display with it right next to the Max. So I could pick up both of them and go, can I feel five grams?
⏹️ ▶️ John The answer is no, I couldn't. And I didn't think it was egregiously heavy. But again, I wouldn't want to put it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, for whatever it's worth, I've like handed this test phone to a couple of other people in the last couple of days. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the first thing everyone says.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you got to hand it
⏹️ ▶️ John Because the max is always open.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John You hope it's always open. That's true.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, that is really true. That when it's open, and I had this written down,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey literally what I wrote down in my notes yesterday, the day before, is the following. When open, it's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey impossibly light. I understand conceptually that is literally impossible,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but the way the weight is distributed, it feels impossibly light. And as someone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey who has handled but never owned an iPhone Air, impossibly thin. I love
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the feel of this when it's open. It's fine, closed for me, but I love it when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it's open. I realized around the time that I got the device that if you're
⏹️ ▶️ Casey curious what it's like when it's open, it is almost exactly the same size as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an Apple Magic Trackpad when open. So that gives you a rough idea of about how big it is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I I was of the opinion that I was going to friggin hate Touch ID. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was primed and ready to be furious about it. I prefer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Face ID, but Touch ID is fine. Now, most of the reason for that, to be fair, is because Watch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Unlock, I've used it in the past. I guess maybe I never turned it on for more
⏹️ ▶️ Casey recent phones. I don't know what my deal is, but, or maybe it's different in this phone or with this iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey release. I don't know. But it's like astonishingly fast now. It used to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it would wait until face ID timed out and then it would finally be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, oh, yes, I can unlock your phone now. But now, I don't know what it is. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they're not waiting for a finger. Maybe they know that there's no finger touching, so they don't even bother. I'm not sure what the story
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is. But if you're wearing an Apple Watch, and I totally understand not everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is going to wear an Apple Watch, or maybe you don't want to wear it all the time. Totally get that. But for me,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I basically always have an Apple Watch on, and it is astonishingly fast to unlock.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is it perfect? No. Would Face ID be better? Yes. Would I prefer Face ID? Absolutely.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But this was one of those things that I was primed and ready to be furious about. And it's really fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John The other aspect of that that I think we forgot to mention last time is they do this thing with the touch, setting a hide watch so
⏹️ ▶️ John you have no Apple Watch. They do this thing with the Touch ID button on the side of the duo where um even if
⏹️ ▶️ John you Touch ID it, and unfortunately, I couldn't test this in the Apple Store because they have Touch ID like disabled on the
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey phones for reasons that
⏹️ ▶️ John make sense when you think about it.
⏹️ ▶️ John it first uh like pauses to let you see your notifications because it's
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of hard to like, what if I just want to see my, like on your regular phone, you can just tap the side button and see all your notifications
⏹️ ▶️ John on the lock screen without unlocking your phone. But if that same button does touch ID, if that unlocked
⏹️ ▶️ John the phone, you'd be like, I can never see my notifications on the lock screen because as soon as I touch that damn button, it unlocks the whole
⏹️ ▶️ John phone. So by default, when you touch the button, it will be like, OK,
⏹️ ▶️ John here's your lock screen. Keep your finger on that button and now unlock. I
⏹️ ▶️ John could not test that. I know they have a setting for this, like what is it like? Hold to unlock.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, what it says on the screen is rest to open. I'm not sure what the setting is, but that's what it says on screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right. Again, I couldn't, I couldn't test that in the Apple Store because they have Touch ID uh, locked. But if you have one
⏹️ ▶️ John of these phones, know that there, that's why it does that. It's an intentional choice because otherwise you, there would be no way for you
⏹️ ▶️ John to see your notifications on the lock screen. And Casey, can you tell me, does that setting make it not do that
⏹️ ▶️ John and just unlock immediately?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh i don't I got to find it first. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I mean, I guess you're always
⏹️ ▶️ John unlocking with the watch, so
⏹️ ▶️ John you can always hit that button with a finger that is not registered for Touch ID, obviously. But like that's my understanding
⏹️ ▶️ John of that's why that preference exists because some people like registering like all five of their fingers.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I'm trying to find… Oh, rest finger to open is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John setting. That's on by default, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which is within Touch ID and passcodes. And I just turned it off. So now I've locked my phone and I've sat
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and rested my finger. Oh, no, I have to press the button. You have to keep your watch away from it. Oh, yeah, that's true. No,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, it doesn't seem that different. It just doesn't automatically unlock itself. So it doesn't, basically what REST
⏹️ ▶️ Casey does is it does a swipe up on your behalf
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John is effectively what it does.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So yeah, so yeah, not having face ID, again, I can't stress enough. 100%
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would prefer it if I stick with the duo for next year. And if there's a duo 2 and it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has face ID, I will be overjoyed. But this was one of those things that I was expected
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be, expecting to be furious about. It's a nothing burger. It's fine. Speaking of nothing burgers, the crease,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it's a nothing burger. Like, I feel it sometimes, but not always. I see it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey occasionally, but not always. Generally speaking, I really don't notice it. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really don't. And I don't think I'm being like super duper, I can't think of the word I'm looking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for, but like I'm not grading on a curve here. I really don't think so. I was expected to be like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that this, I'm going to notice this all the time. It's going to be really annoying. And I do notice it, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don't find it to be nearly as annoying as I expected. And I don't notice it nearly as much as I expected.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the Matte surface really does an amazing job. Again, maybe Apple Store lighting is more beneficial than
⏹️ ▶️ John being in the sun, but it's really, it does a good job because those ones in the Apple Store are getting an open and close
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot more than normal ones. So even though they're quote unquote brand new, they're not really like a lot of people. I opened and closed it 100
⏹️ ▶️ John times myself, right? So they're getting
⏹️ ▶️ John lot of opening and closing. And I expected that the Matte surface would hide it, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John reasonably. You can still see it, but whatever, hide it well enough. But I thought, oh, I'll be able to feel it really well.
⏹️ ▶️ John They did a good job of making it so you can't feel it that much. Yes, you can feel it. You can,
⏹️ ▶️ John you could, if you, with your eyes closed, you can find where it is. But I expected it to be way worse feel-wise, just because there
⏹️ ▶️ John has to be like a gap there for it to go into. But they shore up that gap in a way that hopefully doesn't
⏹️ ▶️ John puncture your screen from the back more on that next week in a very beneficial way.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I'm just, I was super impressed with that screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John every aspect of it, including how well they handled the crease.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and I really like the internal matte screen. I genuinely am not sure if I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would want it on the outside. I probably would because using this thing in sunlight
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would be even better than it already is with a matte screen. I think I would probably want matte
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everywhere, but I can tell you for sure, I'm loving it on the internal screen. It just looks different in a pleasing
⏹️ ▶️ John It's fuzzier than a nanotexture on the iPad. It's a little bit fuzzier than that, but I think it works
⏹️ ▶️ John well on this particular device. It is, I found it less blurry than I thought it was going to be.
⏹️ ▶️ John But again, good thing about being an Apple store, side by side with it, with a, with a nano
⏹️ ▶️ John texture iPad, you're like, oh, I see the nanotexture iPad is a little bit more, uh, I don't know,
⏹️ ▶️ John like refined and less less hazy. Um, But, you know, that's because it's, it's
⏹️ ▶️ John a much thicker piece of glass.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, the inside screen feels fantastic with the Apple Pencil.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like that texture. Oh, interesting. Oh, man, does it feel good? I also, by the way, I did some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco testing. All over Amazon, there are cheaper Apple Pencil compatible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco styluses. The biggest brand seems to be this brand called MetaPen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I've gotten a couple of them over the years for iPads. As far as I can figure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, they do not seem to be compatible. The only stylus I've gotten to work with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Duo is the Apple Pencil usbc all those like you know MetaPens and stuff, it's you can get them to work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on almost any other iPad. um And they don't have any kind of like pairing. You just like bring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it near it and it works. which So it's probably using whatever mechanism the Logitech Crayon uses. And that mechanism
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does not appear to exist or be enabled for the Duo. So for whatever it's worth, if if you were out there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hoping to get a cheaper stylus uh for your two thousand dollar phone, it's not going to happen, at least not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. So if you want some kind of pencil, you got to get the actual Apple Pencil USB-C.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That being said, the Apple Pencil USB-C is pretty good. And my only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slight complaint about it is that when you first pick it up, if you haven't been using it for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while, it doesn't work immediately. It has to wake up and connect, I guess. So if you pick
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it up real fast and start drawing on the duo, the first few strokes might not actually register
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet, which is a little annoying, but I understand why it has some kind of standby
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing. But otherwise, using the Apple Pencil on both duo screens,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it works. It works great with that one massive exception of the duo
⏹️ ▶️ Marco completely rocking on a table so much that you cannot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco write with it on a surface. And no matter what case you get, I don't think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's going to make a big enough difference
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John to that. height. I'm
⏹️ ▶️ John sure people have cases that'll even that out, but without a case, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it would have to be pretty thick to even it out.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco little extra pegs to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John make up for the camera
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I'm sure. But then it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be ridiculous in a pocket. Anyway. I know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I think it's
⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculous in a pocket with any case on it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. If your plan is to use the duo to take notes a lot,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you better like holding your notebooks
⏹️ ▶️ John when you're taking notes.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco on them. Or putting
⏹️ ▶️ John it on your leg or something, something squishier.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. But even then, if it's on like, you know, your leg or a bed or something, you can do that, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's rough. The other thing is, you really, if you're going to use the pencil with it, you really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to be opening it up and using it in portrait orientation, using it in landscape, but just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of like with the hinge, it's kind of a little bit weird. I think the ergonomics of note-taking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it are much better handheld in portrait. And if you want any other situation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than handheld and portrait, you want an iPad mini.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Coming back to the matte screen, again, love it, love it, love it. However,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the things that I did not expect to be annoyed by, and I'm getting over, but was very,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it put me off a lot at first, is the camera on the inside screen,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the bigger screen. The camera that is under the display, I find that to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fairly glaring. I'm getting to get to the point that I can ignore it, but I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey find that oftentimes, particularly in dark mode, um, it's pretty obvious where it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is. Additionally, even in light mode, if you can't see the circle that is the camera,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the text that is under, or I guess over the camera, I should say, is fuzzier than all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the text around it. And so I'll think, oh, God, what happened? Oh, right, right, right. Oh, no, what happened to my screen? Oh, right. My
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad. Um, So that's a little bit frustrating. Would I've preferred a whole
⏹️ ▶️ Casey punch camera? Maybe. Like, it is nice to have nothing, like no,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no clearly visible. And well, when things are great, it's nice to have nothing that you can
⏹️ ▶️ Casey see as being a camera. But then in more circumstances than I expected, the inner
⏹️ ▶️ Casey camera or the opened camera is the front-facing camera,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the one that's under the screen. I find that I see that far more than I expected and is a little bit annoying.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, they could have done hole punch in the upper right corner like so many other Android foldables do. And then they could have done the Apple thing
⏹️ ▶️ John and just turn that circle into the dynamic island and sort of rejiggered their whole UI around that, but they didn't.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. Um, Let's see. The thing that might be driving
⏹️ ▶️ Casey me the most bananas about this phone, and I'm being a little bit hyperbolic here and a little bit dramatic, but I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey also kind of mean it. Uh, If you happen to have a standard iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in in your hands, you can follow along with me as long as you can do so safely. If you go to,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey let's say, send a text message and you start to type a message, it doesn't
⏹️ ▶️ Casey matter what the message is, it doesn't matter who it's to. I'm looking at my comically tall
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 17 Pro, hilariously tall 17 Pro. It actually seems
⏹️ ▶️ Casey misproportioned to my eyes now because I've been trained by the duo. Anyways, if you look at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the 17 Pro or equivalent keyboard, in the bottom left-hand corner, for me anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the way I have it configured, the bottom left-hand corner is a little emoji icon. And above that is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, two, three to change your keyboard. On the duo, the bottom left-hand corner is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, two, three with a little baby emoji one next to it. And then next to that is the space bar. As
⏹️ ▶️ Casey someone who has been known to use an emoji from time to time, and by that I mean freaking always,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I keep hitting the frigging one, two, three button when I mean to get an emoji because I've gotten years
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of muscle memory for go to the bottom left of the screen. And the bottom left of the screen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is now the one two three button. I'm sure I can retrain myself. This is a silly thing to fuss about, but it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is driving me freaking crazy that every time I go to send to an emoji, I'm actually changing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the keyboard and then I got to remind myself how the heck to send an emoji again. It's driving me batty. Live
⏹️ ▶️ Casey activities. I like what they're going for. And what they do is in the upper right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hand, well, sorry, live activities with the closed duo. In the upper right is the hole punch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey camera. Below that is time. And if you have a focus mode, well, I guess a focus mode
⏹️ ▶️ Casey icon, if applicable, then time. Then you have that like combined battery wifi cell widget, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also really like. But if you have a live activity, it obviously is going to go into the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hole punch, so to speak. And what it does is it shimmies everything on the right hand side of the screen down.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey When you're on the home screen, that's fine. But when you're on the lock screen, or excuse me, when you're on apps,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it's not great. And I think some of that is that the software isn't 100% like the iOS software is 100%
⏹️ ▶️ Casey locked in on this. But live activities, especially if you're trying to do more than one, it's a bit rough out there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I don't love that because I do love live activities. I like it for sports scores. I like it for timers. I like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it for like a delivery or something like that. I use live activities relatively
⏹️ ▶️ Casey often and it's rough out there. Don't love that. Another nitpicky thing in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Slack, they have updated Slack for the duo, which is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey great. However, the gesture to go for the left to right swipe gesture that brings
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you back no longer brings you back to your list of workspaces. It used to be that if
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you kept swiping left far enough, you could get to your different workspaces. So the relay Slack, the incomparable Slack, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, all these different Slacks I'm a part of. Well, now I absolutely have to hit the button in the upper left-hand
⏹️ ▶️ Casey corner to get to a different Slack and it's driving me freaking batty. Selfies,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they are better and worse. Fidelity, very good. Really like having
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the ability to use the outer like main camera in order to take a selfie. That
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being said, you'll look like a moron because you look like you're trying to take a selfie with an iPad mini.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You look dumb. You really, really do. The way they handle this is when you open the camera
⏹️ ▶️ Casey app, if the phone is open, if you flip the phone over on the outer display, the smaller of the displays,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it says slide to show camera. And then you can do that and then you see the camera. I like that affordance.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it works well. That being said, you look like a moron. I'm doing it now. And I'm the only
⏹️ ▶️ Casey person in this room and I look like an idiot. Also, not a great, or maybe I just haven't figured it out,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a great way to ergonomically try to take a picture Cause you've got this giant slab in your hands
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you're trying to figure out the right way to take a picture. And if you're trying to do it one handed, cause you know, you're trying to do the like, hold
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the thing out at a distance so you can get everyone in the shot dance, not great, Bob. Not great.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, Toolbar buttons. Because toolbars and everything is smaller on the outer display,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Safari ShareO, the Safari Share Arrow is now like buried within the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like puzzle piece thing on the left-hand side of the address bar. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey don't think that was the case on the 17 Pro. I don't remember. I'm trying to find where it was. But it was not there in the 17
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro. And let me tell you, it is very, oh yeah, because that's what it is. It's at the, there's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a second row of icons. There's back and forward. There's share
⏹️ ▶️ Casey row, bookmarks, and tabs. That row is not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there in the duo's outer screen. Instead, you've got just the address bar with the left-hand
⏹️ ▶️ Casey side is the puzzle piece that has everything in it, the everything bucket. The right-hand side is reload. And in the toolbar,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which again is the right gutter of the phone, you have new tab and the tabs button.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I get why they did that. I freaking hate it. The share row is buried and it's driving me batty.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Getting close to done. I was on a FaceTime call with Stephen Hackett. We were talking about when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey he comes to visit and what we're going to do to my house in order to destroy it as per the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey perk or the goal on the podcast-a-thon or the campaign.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And there was a point in time that I needed to show him something, but I needed two hands
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I was like measuring something and I wanted him to see me measuring something. And you know what was pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Casey great? I could put the phone in laptop mode, sit it somewhere safe, John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and have it just looking at me. Now, granted, I can't see Steven, but he can see me just fine. And I didn't need
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like to jury rig some sort of apparatus in order to stand the thing upright. I just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey put it in laptop mode. It was great. You should have put it in open book mode.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I mean? Yeah, I guess I could have, but that would have been less stable.
⏹️ ▶️ John then you would have a better view of the screens. You could see more of the screens.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I probably could have. You're right. But the stability of that would have been questionable. Additionally, at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one point, we were looking at the Unify app, like in, in the context of FaceTime, I shared my screen and it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey took two or three tries to get this to work. But we were looking at the FaceTime app and on the left hand, or excuse me, on the Unify
⏹️ ▶️ Casey app and the left-hand side, this is with the device open. left hand side was Unify app, right hand side was Steven's face.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was great. Loved it. Uh, also, uh, Gruber covered this. I will probably
⏹️ ▶️ Casey forget to put the link in the show notes, but uh, Gruber was saying that it's really crummy that closing the device
⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn't lock it because you're in your natural, uh, inkling having, if you're an old man anyway, having
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had flip phones when you were younger, your inclination is when you close the device, it should lock
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then you can put it in your pocket. That's not what it does. When you close the device, it just switches to the outer screen again.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This was kind of driving me batty and Gruber complained about this a little bit. And then Steve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Robles came in, came up with a shortcut because apparently there is a shortcut trigger
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for when the device is opened or when it's closed. And Stephen came up with a very, very straightforward shortcut
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that says when the device is closed, lock it. Then he improved it to say, when the device
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is closed, lock it if it is on the home screen. But if it's not on the home screen, just carry
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on. Works great. It's really, really good. I'll try to remember to put a link in the show notes. Again, no promises.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John is in the document
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it? Perfect. All right. Yes, I will endeavor to remember to transfer them to the show notes that people can see. Uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The cameras. Yeah, they kind of suck. And right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco now, it doesn't
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bother me too much because I haven't taken that many pictures. But let me tell you, we were at a football practice
⏹️ ▶️ Casey earlier tonight, a flag football practice earlier tonight, and it was getting dark. And I took a photo with my camera and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey took a photo with Aaron's 17 Pro. And hers was way better. This is the 17 Pro, mind you,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not 18 Pro, uh Hers was way better. So I'm not happy about that. That is one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the things that I was expecting to be unhappy about, and I am indeed unhappy about. uh, Final two items,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey super fast. Tent mode. Uh, This is where you open it like, you know, 30 degrees
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever and sit it on the on the desk. Um, I do this occasionally cause it's kind of fun to have like a picture frame, a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey picture display going uh, while I'm working. That's kind of neat. Laptop mode, I think I've used once,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that was in the aforementioned call with Steven on FaceTime. All in all,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really like this phone. I think I'm going to stick with it for the year. I'm unsure what I'm going to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do in the future, but let me tell you, it is pretty darn nice to be a passenger princess
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever and not having to worry about bringing an iPad with you because it's already with you. It's pretty darn
⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice if you want to do two things at once. Like at one point, Erin had been asked to substitute
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of times and I was watching her fumbling about, fumbling about just in the sense that it's burdensome,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not because she doesn't know what she's doing. She knows exactly what to do, but she's fumbling about flipping between calendar, text messages,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey calendar, text messages, trying to figure out, you know, from this teacher that asked for her help, what days and what are we doing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey those days? Is it reasonable for her to sub, et cetera? You know what I could have done in the duo? Could have opened it up, put text
⏹️ ▶️ Casey messages on one side, calendar on the other. Boom, done. Easy peasy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really agree with what everyone says that the multitasking on this is limited,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but that is beautiful. I love the way they handled multitasking on this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It's really, really intuitive, works really great. I really, really like this phone a lot. It
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is with compromises. In the same way, I think it was Marco said earlier, the original MacBook,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the one-port MacBook, was a machine that was defined by compromises. And you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can make that argument for this phone as well. But golly, did I love that MacBook? And golly, right now
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, I really love this duo a lot. I really, really like it a lot. I can't
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell you if I'm going to stick with it. And I'm very excited for future Casey, a little less than a year from now, to share
⏹️ ▶️ Casey his thoughts. But today's Casey, I really, really like this phone a lot. I'm really surprised
⏹️ ▶️ Casey how much I like it. I'm surprised how little I'm put off by some of the things I thought would be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey deal breakers. The only thing that I think is really remaining a deal breaker to me is the cameras. And 99%
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the time, I'll have Erin with me anyway, so I can just grab her phone. This is a really impressive phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm not trying to imply that Marco's wrong by any stretch of the imagination. Not at all. Also,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this thing's hilariously expensive, especially if you're coerced to buy it what did you say, a one terabyte one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Two terabytes. Two terabytes The
⏹️ ▶️ John joke I made about Marco's phone earlier is it's like the diner lobster from the famous SNL sketch
⏹️ ▶️ John and from real life and diners where you'll see lobster on a diner's menu and they just assume no one's ever going to order it, but
⏹️ ▶️ John they always keep one around just in case. That's the phone that Marco got. Every
⏹️ ▶️ John store gets one of those just in case someone comes in and is like, someone came in and asked for it. Do you believe that? We sold
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Amazing. Amazing. So yeah, so I am not trying to imply. I'm not trying to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say, I'm not trying to subtweet, if you will. I'm not saying that Marco is wrong. And in fact, I could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey make the argument that I myself could make the argument that Marco is right. But for me today, I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just having a lot of fun with this thing. that's what Adam said. You know, I'm having a lot of fun. And it is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so wild what they've done to iOS in a good way, mostly, what they've done to iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make all this work. I'm really, really digging it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I also want to congratulate Casey for not breaking it in the first couple of
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey days of owning it.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Casey Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John let's keep those fingers crossed. You have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no case, right? No case. However, I did notice, I really don't want to belabor
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this. If we want to come back to this another episode, that's fine. But very briefly, I noticed that Apple Care,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which has been my case recently, yes, I know it's not really a case. Just go with it. Apple Care is like $20
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a month on this phone, and you are no longer allowed to pre-buy an entire year of Apple Care,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which would save you some money. And I looked at it and I did the thing that maybe I shouldn't,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I took the fall and I did Apple Care Family. So this is on it. Like 15 devices
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are on Apple Care Family, and it is also very expensive. It's $50 a month, but like the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey entire family is covered. And given that we are starting to get to the point that children are going to have phones soon, it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seemed like it was worth it. And again, given that this alone would have been $20, I figured, geez,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey why not? And I got a bunch of refunds. Like I had just re-upped on the 17 pros for a year, an
⏹️ ▶️ Casey additional year for each of them. And I got a refund for almost all of that. I got some Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Store gift, Apple gift cards for a couple other things that I had gotten Apple Care on. Cause I have,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it wasn't exclusively phones, but it was mostly phones. But now like Vision Pro is on this. MacBook Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm pretty sure is on it. Studio Display, I believe, is on it. It might be too old now. I forget. But you get my point. A bunch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of stuff is on this. And I am actually feeling pretty good about it now because now some stuff that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wouldn't have been on it, like I did have it on Erin's phone for this year, but generally speaking, she doesn't have Apple Care.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And she has broken a couple of phones in the past. Not catastrophically like me, but enough that it's been annoying.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, So I'm really, I'm so far I'm happy with it despite the obscene cost. And so no case,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no pop socket, generally speaking, Uh, but I haven't dropped it yet.
Sponsor: Granola
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We are sponsored this week by Granola. So, if you're the kind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of person that has a lot of meetings, which is probably almost everyone listening to me right now, then
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you might find that concentrating on what your coworkers are saying while also taking notes can
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be a bit burdensome and a little tough. Additionally, oftentimes you're in the midst
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of having a conversation and an action item or some other to-do will fall out of that conversation,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then it will fall out of your memory if you're anything like me. And that's no good. So what can you do about that?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, Granola is an AI-powered notepad that makes your meeting notes useful. It captures what happens in your meetings
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and turns it into clean, structured notes with decisions and action items pulled out and made easy to find.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the best part, Granola integrates seamlessly with how you already work. No setup, no configuration,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no friction. So I did a meeting with John to talk about ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey member special ideas. This is like a month, month and a half ago. And Granola listened and took notes on it. And it's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really great. And not only does it call out the action items and whatnot, but it also will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey justify the decisions it made. So if you click on any line item that it comes up with, it shows a transcript
⏹️ ▶️ Casey summary and then we'll call out the actual words that were said in order to get to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that summary. And so it's really, really useful. So for example, there was a line item
⏹️ ▶️ Casey title, ATP Insider Show Q&A, transcript summary. They landed on this after discussing the member special driven by one listener's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey question about ATP Lauren deciding it was narrower than a general host Q&A. And then it has an actual quote from John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then it continues with the summary. Then they explicitly workshop the title and agreed to simpler framing fit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because the episode would cover mostly show history, but not only that. And again, more quotes after that. It works really, really well.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you're like me and super forgetful, it can really save your bacon. So once you try it on a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey first meeting, it's hard to go without. You can try it totally free. Head to granola.ai slash ATP. That's
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iPad Mini (A20 Pro)
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Here's the deal, listeners. We are roughly an hour in, and we got a lot of crap left to talk about.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, the three of us are going to endeavor to try to be very quick about the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey stuff. Yeah, buckle up. We're going to try to speed run it. We're going to try to be quick about the stuff that leads up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the MacBook Pros, and then we're going to let the MacBook Pro air out a bit, or at least that's the theory.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Again, as always, laugh as you look at how long these chapters are, and laugh at this sweet summer child
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that doesn't know what the future brings. All right, so John, let's start and let's try to do this chronologically,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and we'll start with this past Monday, which is the iPad Mini.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Apple releasing things on a series of days instead of one big event. Sure, why not? It gives you more time to make notes.
⏹️ ▶️ John The previous iPad Mini was A17 Pro. This one is an A20 Pro, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John a nice update. It's about the same size, a little bit less heavy. It's like
⏹️ ▶️ John 38 grams less, to 34 grams less, depending on if you get cellular. This kind of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John we're going to see this in a lot of products that we talk about today. We say it's about the same size. We're talking
⏹️ ▶️ John sub millimeter differences in length, width, height, or maybe one or two millimeters. Really weird
⏹️ ▶️ John that like they didn't make them exactly the same size, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they're almost exactly the same size.
⏹️ ▶️ John Storage is the same as the old model, 128, 256, 512. The A20
⏹️ ▶️ John is an A20, but you get dinged some cores if you get, like, again,
⏹️ ▶️ John tied to random stuff. It's tied to storage. So if you get 128 and 256 gig storage, you get your down
⏹️ ▶️ John one efficiency core and you get one fewer neural engine. It's only one of the two neural engines works, like
⏹️ ▶️ John the A20 Pro has two neural engines, but you just get one if you don't get the 512 gig model. If you get the 512 gig,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get all the cores working, which is a bummer, but whatever, just be aware. The big story is that it's
⏹️ ▶️ John an OLED screen and it's 8.5-inch instead of the old one was 8.3. They call it Super Retina
⏹️ ▶️ John XDR because they love long names for screens. That will also come up later. 1200 nits peak HDR.
⏹️ ▶️ John The previous one didn't have HDR at all and it's 600 nits SDR, which is up 100 nits from what it used to be.
⏹️ ▶️ John 25% or 24% thinner bezels. And every time they make the bezels thinner on the iPad,
⏹️ ▶️ John I'm like, so is this just like impossible for me to pick up now? Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John have the touch rejection or whatever, but wow, they were already so small. Anyway, it's
⏹️ ▶️ John 2316 by 1512 uh 326 PPI. The PPI is the same as the old model,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it is 50 pixels wider and uh 24 pixels higher. Okay, sure,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple. um It does have nano texture available, so I know Marco and many others are super
⏹️ ▶️ John excited by that. It is an option on the 256 and 512 only, I think, which is weird.
⏹️ ▶️ John Market segmentation. No promotion, 60 hertz only. And apparently
⏹️ ▶️ John it supports extended display mode when connected to an external display if you have iPad OS 27.2.
⏹️ ▶️ John And apparently this does not work on the old minis, even with iPadOS 27.2, which is a bummer.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's got the N1 chip, which gives you Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6, and thread radio. C2 for cellular.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it's got all the latest Apple chips. 12 megapixel center stage landscape camera, which means
⏹️ ▶️ John it's on the long side now instead of the short side. It has an acoustic display instead
⏹️ ▶️ John of normal speakers. Yeah, this was fascinating. Yeah, this is what Apple says. Specially designed
⏹️ ▶️ John woofers are paired through the display to produce punchier bass and more volume. In addition, custom tweeters
⏹️ ▶️ John are now hidden between the glass and aluminum enclosure for clear highs. The acoustic display also features a
⏹️ ▶️ John sealed enclosure that helps iPad Mini achieve its IP67 rating. So the idea is they vibrate the screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John The screen is your speaker. And this is very well-established technology in the TV world.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think my TV has it, but it's been in TVs for years and years where I don't know why they do it in TVs, but they do.
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess to try to make the sound feel like it's coming from the screen and not from like, especially with a flat screen, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John where are you going to put the speakers? If you have them front-facing, it's weird. And all the TV makers want to have like
⏹️ ▶️ John no bezel type things where it just looks like a screen. So where do you put the speakers? Now they're firing backwards, they're firing upwards.
⏹️ ▶️ John I've got it. Why don't we just make the screen shake? And then some TVs went so far as to try to find like the person's
⏹️ ▶️ John mouth on the screen and make the sound come out of it. Anyway, shaking the screen is a well-established
⏹️ ▶️ John technology, but I will tell you that shaking the screen is not an ideal speaker.
⏹️ ▶️ John There's a reason real speakers are not made of a gigantic piece of glass, 65 inches
⏹️ ▶️ John wide, right? So I think it's a good idea for an iPad though, but I do wonder how it's going to sound.
⏹️ ▶️ John In my experience with televisions, it doesn't sound good. I don't know if it sounds
⏹️ ▶️ John better or worse than crappy TV speakers, but it sure doesn't sound as good as any kind of real speaker that's
⏹️ ▶️ John facing you. But for an iPad, mini, they probably had crappy speakers already, maybe it actually is better, and especially if they
⏹️ ▶️ John put like more drivers into it. And again, sealing it up so there's like fewer places for stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John to go in. I didn't look up what IP67 is. I think the six is the dust and the seven is like splash
⏹️ ▶️ John resistance or something, but not dunking. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought it was the other way around. I'm not confident that that's right.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, the whole idea of like, where are the holes? We've got the USB-C port, which I think is already pretty well sealed, but the speakers are always
⏹️ ▶️ John a problem because you got to make them like the Apple Watch where you have like, there has to be a hole for the speaker to work. And when water fills it,
⏹️ ▶️ John we have a feature that pukes the water back out, you know? uh The screen, using the screen as a speaker
⏹️ ▶️ John basically solves that. And I think the iPad mini screen is big enough, perhaps, to get decent bass out of it, whereas the watch
⏹️ ▶️ John screen probably isn't. So anyway, still no face ID in case you were wondering. This is not a tiny iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, even though it has an OLED screen. It remains an iPad mini segmented into
⏹️ ▶️ John that place. Again, no promotion, no face ID, even though I feel like it could fit.
⏹️ ▶️ John uh Midnight and Starlight Colors. All the prices are up a hundred bucks. Nano texture is also a hundred bucks and
⏹️ ▶️ John cellular is $150 extra. Pre-order is October 28th and store is November 6th.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also finally, they have a new smart folio case, um, Actually, I didn't put a link to that in there,
⏹️ ▶️ John so I don't know what it looks like. But yeah, they love the tech-woven stuff. There's a tech-woven case for the iPad Mini. Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ John are you excited about this? Are you going to get one?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have already ordered one because the pre-order was earlier today. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is going to be really fun. So I've gone back and forth with lots of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad logistics over the years. At first, I tried
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use it as a tablet. And then when the keyboard cases came
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, I learned that it's so much nicer entering text with a keyboard than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any other way. And that really killed my love for the iPad Mini because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco while keyboard cases do exist for the iPad Mini, they're so much more cramped than the full-size
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad ones that they're pretty hard to use. Also, Apple makes the best keyboard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cases for iPads, and they don't even make one for the Mini because it would be way too small. So you're stuck with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like third party ones that don't work as well and just aren't as well made, honestly. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the external keyboard situation is pretty dire for the Mini, and so I kind of fell out of the Mini for a while. But the problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the big iPads is that ever since they went to the Magic Keyboard especially, an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad Pro with a keyboard is just really heavy and bulky. And at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that point, you're so close to a MacBook that you might as well just get a MacBook.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so that's what I've been doing. And so I really haven't used the big iPads much at all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in recent years. But then I started working on Fineliner, which is a pencil-based
⏹️ ▶️ Marco drawing app. And it works really well on the iPad Mini. And the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mini happens to be a really good size for what I want out of a note-taking device. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great. And so I started using my iPad Mini again, and I've just been so happy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using it. And what they've done here with this new one is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have not pushed the iPad Mini into being more of a laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco replacement. They've made it much better at being what it already was.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So to be a laptop replacement, you need keyboard input. You just need a keyboard, simple as that. On-screen keyboards
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are nothing compared to a keyboard case. But what this is pushing into is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco both small pencil use and also consumption. That's what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco many iPads, maybe even most iPads are used for is watching video
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and reading stuff and browsing the web and stuff like that. And I think for that, if you're not like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having to type a lot of text, this is a great device. Now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new iPad Mini is only one gram heavier than the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Duo. And the screen is significantly larger. It's in the same ballpark,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it's larger. And I think if what you want is roughly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that size class device to use, you know, always open,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, you can't fold it, obviously. Or as our as our friend joked in Slack, you can fold it once.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was going to say, if you have this thing in your house, the fear is you're going to pick it up one day and try to fold
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Yeah. But as, as that device, as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mostly a content consumption or very light productivity device, or like note-taking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something with the pencil, for that, it's awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And look at what they what they're doing with this. They made it substantially lighter,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little thinner, and water resistant. And with nanotexture, they're competing with Kindles.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's what that is. That's why they're doing that. Kindles are great with glare because they're e-ink.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that's what nanotexture is for in this context. And Kindles are water resistant. That's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what that's for in this context. And so what this does is it takes a device that already,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn't do everything the iPad Pro does, but it kind of goes in places
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPad Pro doesn't go. And they've taken it and moved it further that way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is way smaller and way lighter than the other iPads now. It
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has water resistance, which none of the other iPads do. And it is going to be much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco easier to hold in your hand for a long time. And by the way, nanotexture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is way more affordable on this than on the on the iPad Pro. Because the iPad Pro, I believe this is still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the case. Doesn't it still require the one terabyte configuration to get
⏹️ ▶️ John one does require the not lowest config for nanotexture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but you can get it with 256 for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is it's a very different price point for nanotexture on an iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I also will point out that if you're if you're comparing pricing this, I just said they were all hundred dollars more than they used to be. That means
⏹️ ▶️ John $128 is $700, $256 is $800, and $512 is a thousand and then plus $100
⏹️ ▶️ John for nanotexture. But that still means you can get two iPad minis
⏹️ ▶️ John iPad minis, OLED iPad minis with nanotexture, tape them together, and it costs as much as a duo.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's the thing. So like the value of the duo is it's always with you. It's always in your pocket,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco weighing it down and pulling your pants down, but it's always in your pocket. But if what you want is a phone,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like the best phone and the best tablet in that approximate size class,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think what you want is an iPhone Pro and the new iPad Mini, which the combination
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of which costs as much as the iPhone Duo. But then, of course,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is two separate devices, which has its pluses and minuses. I think mostly minuses.
⏹️ ▶️ John Don't discount the two iPad Minis taped together.
⏹️ ▶️ John ultimate duo, just don't fold them together too hard. You'll crack the glass.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. But anyway, so I did order one of these. What they've done is they've
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pushed the mini more pro, but not all. Like, I do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wish, I think everyone wishes they would have gone a little further because the mini has not been particularly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco inexpensive for most of its life. Like you would think, a lot of times Apple, like the smallest product is the cheapest one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so they sell a whole bunch of them to people who just want the cheapest one or kids or whatever else. The iPad mini
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most of its life has not been that. So the people who are using it are choosing it for other reasons.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Over the last couple generations, they've tried to like, you know, do little things upgrading it in minor ways here
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there. People mostly have complained about the screen quality not being very good. There was that tearing issue on the one two generations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ago. They've made it OLED now. Awesome. And that's probably responsible for some of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the significant weight and thickness savings. Awesome. They didn't go 60 hertz
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or they didn't go 120 hertz. Why? Why?
⏹️ ▶️ John Market segmentation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But they're pushing it into pro territory in all these other ways. That's why it has no face ID.
⏹️ ▶️ John I'm sure they could find room for face ID in there, but they don't want to.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What they have done is make it almost an iPad Pro, but small. Like an iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John And I will add that if you get the big one of these, 512 Nanotexture Cellular, that's like $1,200.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's a $1,200 iPad mini.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but the iPad Pro is like starting in that range. I know. I'm
⏹️ ▶️ John just saying, like it does, there is, it does creep into the iPad Pro range. But like they didn't make this
⏹️ ▶️ John a tiny iPad Pro. They intentionally are not doing that. there It's also not as cheap as a Kindle, I will say, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it is, it's still staking out that, like, I'm not a pro. I just have some, whatever pro stuff has
⏹️ ▶️ John trickled down to me. And also for the chip, A20 Pro, that's a current gen
⏹️ ▶️ John chip, whereas the Mini usually gets a chip that's been out for like a half a year or something.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That's the thing. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like between the OLED and the and like the the faster chip and the nano texture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco option, like they really are bringing a lot of proness to it. They just didn't go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco further. Now, I don't blame them for, you know, for it not being an M5 chip. Like that's fine because this is a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much smaller device. that that would probably not fit the power envelope.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they might not update this for two years, too.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sure. But to to push the iPad Mini into being even better
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of an iPad Mini, I think that's a very good choice. And I'm honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm looking forward to this significantly. I think I'm going to end up using it a lot because of my new freelance business
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just because I'm getting into this you know, as like a pen tablet. I think it's gonna be awesome.
iMac (M6)
⏹️ ▶️ John M6 iMac. John, take us through it. All right, so there's two versions,
⏹️ ▶️ John just like there was with the M4 iMac, and I think the one before it. And the two versions are two Thunderbolt ports
⏹️ ▶️ John and four Thunderbolt ports, which is a very straightforward way to describe the differences between these computers.
⏹️ ▶️ John To be clear, it is the same form factor that it has been in the past: the colorful, very flat
⏹️ ▶️ John iMacs. It's available in all the same colors, and every model
⏹️ ▶️ John is available in all the colors. I couldn't tell archive.org was failing me. If this is new, I seem to recall that
⏹️ ▶️ John at one point, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt ports model. You could only get in two colors or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco At least the very cheapest configuration of it. It was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was like the more boring set of colors. But it was still, it wasn't like only,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, silver. It was, it just, it was like four colors versus seven or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they're all available in all colors, but it was hard to tell. Maybe I was fooled by the configurator. Anyway, the two
⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt port ones gets a binned M6, because this is the M6 iMac. And the binned
⏹️ ▶️ John one is down one performance core and down one efficiency core and down two GPU
⏹️ ▶️ John cores. And then the four Thunderbolt ports gets an unbinned M6, which is nice. RAM,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get 16 or 24 for 200 bucks more. And on the four Thunderbolt ports one, you have
⏹️ ▶️ John the 32 gig option, and that also bumps up the SSD to 512. So it's
⏹️ ▶️ John basically a $400 RAM upgrade plus a $200 SSD upgrade. Apple loves doing this because it makes my eyes
⏹️ ▶️ John cross when I try to figure out the pricing and specs and these things, but they tie features together. And so when you change
⏹️ ▶️ John one, it changes another. It's very confusing. For storage, the two Thunderbolt ports one has 256,
⏹️ ▶️ John 512, and one terabyte. And the four Thunderbolt ports one has two terabytes. And the
⏹️ ▶️ John upgrades are 200 to go to 512, 500 to go to one terabyte, and 1,000
⏹️ ▶️ John to go to 2 terabytes. Nanotexture is extra 200 bucks. It is a 24-inch screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John It was an extra 100 bucks to upgrade the iPad Mini. And I think the iMac
⏹️ ▶️ John is more than two Mac mini screens. But whatever, don't try to do the math.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It's significantly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more than two Mac mini screens.
⏹️ ▶️ John For wireless, I think it has got the new N1 chip because it's got Wi-Fi 7 and Bluetooth
⏹️ ▶️ John 6. It used to be 6E and Bluetooth 5.3. Ethernet was one gigabits when you
⏹️ ▶️ John got it, but now for the two Thunderbolt port model, at $30 extra, you can
⏹️ ▶️ John get the little like, power cord Ethernet adapter because there's no room in the thickness of the device for Ethernet. That's
⏹️ ▶️ John the same as it's always been. But the difference is for that $30, bucks, you get 2.5 gigabit Ethernet. And the four
⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt port one comes with the Ethernet thing at no additional cost. So look at that. An iMac
⏹️ ▶️ John with 2.5 gigabit per second Ethernet. Very impressive. For input,
⏹️ ▶️ John the Magic Mouse is no cost and the Magic Trackpad is an additional $50. bucks. Keyboard with Touch ID is the same
⏹️ ▶️ John as it was. This really annoys me. If you get the two Thunderbolt port one, you get for free Magic
⏹️ ▶️ John Keyboard with lock key, which is their way of saying you don't get a keyboard with Touch ID. Not because the Mac doesn't support it.
⏹️ ▶️ John You just don't get one. If you buy the two Thunderbolt port Mac and you want a keyboard with Touch ID, that's
⏹️ ▶️ John $80 bucks extra. And the only choice you have, I think, in the configurator is magic keyboard with Touch ID and numeric
⏹️ ▶️ John keypad. So if you want a small keyboard with Touch ID, your only choice is to get the four Thunderbolt
⏹️ ▶️ John port model because then you get the Magic Keyboard with Touch ID at no additional cost or the extended version of that for $30
⏹️ ▶️ John extra. And the reason this is all weird with the iMac, like, well, can I just get it with no keyboard and buy my thing separate?
⏹️ ▶️ John Apparently not. But also remember, every single thing in the iMac is color matched. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ John it was the case that Apple wouldn't sell you the color match parts, but I think you can get them now. But anyway, it's an annoying situation.
⏹️ ▶️ John Come on. It's the M6 model. You can't put Touch ID everywhere. I'm not even asking for Face ID anymore. That's how beaten down
⏹️ ▶️ John I am. Just put give Touch
⏹️ ▶️ John The price for two Thunderbolt ports starts at $1,500 and for four starts at $1,700. Pre-order now
⏹️ ▶️ John now available in stores November 6th. Looks like a basic, straightforward part
⏹️ ▶️ John swap for the iMac to keep it up to date. And the M6 is pretty good. I give this computer mostly a thumbs
MacBook Pro (M6)
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Wednesday today, as we sit and record. Oh, no, I'm skipping one.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm skipping one. Shoot. Sorry. Tuesday still, we got the M6 MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is the base model MacBook Pro, and there's a new one.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, this is very much like the iMac where they took an existing computer and pulled out its, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John SOC and put in a new one. It's got the M6 with all cores working on all the models,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is nice. But if you get the one with 16 gigs of RAM, you get slower RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, it's like, I think we talked about this on which computer? I forget. Some other computer we talked about recently, Apple did the same
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. If you get 16 gigs of RAM, you get 153 gigabytes per second memory bandwidth.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you get 24 or 32 gigs of RAM, you get 170 gigabytes per second of memory
⏹️ ▶️ John bandwidth. And why? They use slower RAM chips in the 16 gig model.
⏹️ ▶️ John right. You got to save money somewhere, and that's how they're doing it. Your RAM choices are 16, 24,
⏹️ ▶️ John and 32. If you're upgrading from 16, it's plus 200 for the 24 and plus 400 for the
⏹️ ▶️ John 32. Storage is one, two, and four terabytes. Going to two costs you $500 extra. Going
⏹️ ▶️ John to four costs you $1,500 extra. The screen is the same as the old M4 MacBook Pro. It's
⏹️ ▶️ John 1,000 nits SDR, 1,300 nits HDR. Promotion,
⏹️ ▶️ John nanotexture is 150 extra. 70 watt charger at no cost, 96 watt charger for 20 bucks
⏹️ ▶️ John extra. You can get nickel and dime for everything here. Unchanged size and weight, essentially. Prices start at two
⏹️ ▶️ John grand. Pre-order now in stores November 6th. A nice update uh with the M6.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it is the only, as we'll soon see, the only MacBook Pro with an M6 in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. All right. So that's a thing. But now we get to the good stuff. And we're gonna stop our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speed run I think we did okay. Look at us.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco look at us. I think I'm very proud of us. Yeah.
MacBook Pro with PROLED XDR Display
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so now we're going to be here for another six hours talking about the MacBook Pro OLED.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This happened earlier today. If you'll permit me a two-minute digression, at 10 o'clock this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey morning, I'm sitting there refreshing apple.com and refreshing the Apple YouTube site or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I keep refreshing, keep refreshing 10, 10.05, 10.10, 10.15. And I'm not doing this like literally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey every second, like an iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John look at the live blogs, man.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, hold on. I'm not doing this like an iPhone order, but I'm doing this every like minute or two to see what's going on. at like 10.15,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm like, why have they not put anything up? It was Pacific time. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pacific time. Way to go. Way to go, Casey. Good work.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Just what what are we even doing here? I knew it was in LA. What am I even doing? Anyway, so at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, when I was at lunch, that's when all this dropped. And uh yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there's a uh press, a newsroom article we'll link in the show notes. There's a like two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey minute product intro. There's also a one minute like commercial uh John, take
⏹️ ▶️ Casey us through. What do we got here?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so what is this book that everyone thinks they're referencing? I'm not familiar enough to
⏹️ ▶️ John the book to know, but the longer commercial says if you give a Mac an OLED, is that if you give a mouse some cheese or something?
⏹️ ▶️ John Cookie? Are you familiar with that? Give him
⏹️ ▶️ John cookie, that one? Yeah, give him a, what is that? Is that a kid's book? I don't know. I've just heard that phrase. You're asking the wrong
⏹️ ▶️ John person. All right. Anyway, people are saying that references that. The ads are a little bit weird, but let's
⏹️ ▶️ John start with the name of this product. It is not MacBook Ultra. It is not MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Studio. Hmm. it as as the the invitation said, Pro Intel,
⏹️ ▶️ John and uh you know they said we're here to talk to you about new MacBook Pros, and they sure did. The press release
⏹️ ▶️ John calls it this. MacBook Pro with all caps P-R-O-L-E-D
⏹️ ▶️ John XDR display. So MacBook Pro with ProLED XDR display. Elsewhere
⏹️ ▶️ John on apple.com, they say MacBook Pro, ProLED XDR display. Or in the
⏹️ ▶️ John pop-up menu on the competitor, they say MacBook Pro 14-inch ProLED XDR display parentheses
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 Max. Woof. All right, Sony. So yes. Do
⏹️ ▶️ John you get it? It's a MacBook Pro, and it's got an OLED, Pro, OLED,
⏹️ ▶️ John ProLED. I don't think ProLED is a nice phrase. I also don't like to see it all caps. Also, keep
⏹️ ▶️ John in mind that ProLED in all caps comes after the word Pro. So it's MacBook Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John ProLED, but they didn't stop there. XDR, got to keep
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Awful product name. Yeah, it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John not good. Awful
⏹️ ▶️ John capitalization. Very silly. Proled sounds a little bit like ProLapse. I don't like it. Wow.
⏹️ ▶️ John Wow. Gracious. Don't like it. All right. Anyway, let's get to the good news. The lineup
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple logo is back. Oh my God.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I'm so happy. That is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey best part. This is, this is, we are three old men. Totally get that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is the old manniest old man thing to be excited about, but I'm so excited for this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey No, I really am.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because when Turners posted that teaser with like the bat signal kind of style of like projecting it, I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was thinking, oh my God, is the light up Apple going to be back? Oh, I'm so happy. Because here's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the thing. There is no purpose that it serves. It is just there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for delight. And that is something that Apple used to do a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they really didn't do it much past about about exactly 10
⏹️ ▶️ John when they launched.
⏹️ ▶️ John when they removed the light up Apple logo in 2016.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, when they launched the Touch Bar generation of MacBook Pros that had the butterfly keyboard and removed all the ports
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything, that they removed, they like stripped away all of these little delights.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am happy to see this back for a lot of reasons. But number one, I think it shows
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of just as a, it probably doesn't matter in a big way if you look at it objectively.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But what it shows is Apple's current leadership
⏹️ ▶️ Marco likes computers again and likes Apple's computers again. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, you know, what the kind of like the the big like Dark night of the Soul that we all went through for from 2016
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to about 2020 was like, it seemed like Apple hated the Mac themselves. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we we were like, but we we love the Mac. Why don't you love the Mac? It's kind of scary if the people making the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac don't seem to love the Mac that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And it was that kind of like super like extreme minimalism, Johnny Ivan, Tim Cook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stripping everything away, kind of like, we hate computers. Don't you hate computers? Let's make them as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco minimal as possible. And but but no, we don't hate computers. We love computers. And you're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the only company that makes the computers that we love. So we kind of need you to love them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And what what's amazing about this update, you know, we went into this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of showing our damage from that from that period, saying like, oh, they the rumors are they're going to make them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lighter. Are they going to cut the batteries down? Like, are they going to, and I was worried too, like, are they going to take away
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any other ports? Like, are we still using the SD card slot enough that we can still keep it, please?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was worried, what are they going to take away? What is it going to cost us? Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco their updates during that time period, it was always like, all right, we took one step forward
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and three steps back. We made it better in this one way, but worse in all the other ways that matter to you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And what's amazing about this update is that as far as we can tell so far,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they didn't take anything away. They just made it better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is amazing. It seems so we, you know, the battery capacities are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly the same in watt hours. It's on the spec pages. They didn't shrink the batteries at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all. Well, we don't know if they shrunk them,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they have the same power.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah, they didn't shrink the battery capacity at all. Like, it isn't there. They aren't just playing tricks with like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, it's 24 hours now and it was 24 hours before. Nope. There's no benchmark tricks like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The literal watt-hour capacity of the batteries is the same. All of the ports
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are still there. As far as anyone can tell, I think the keyboard seems the same. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like they didn't make any parts of it worse. They just got gains.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, except the price, but they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from converting the panel to OLED. And that seems like a lot of the weight gain or the weight loss was from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco losing some of the backlighting components and all that stuff. If that's true, and so far it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seems to be, it's just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's exactly what a product update needs to be. It's just better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And for I would say probably their most important product for most diehard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple fans, that's really important.
⏹️ ▶️ John Most important product for their pro users, like kind of like trying to characterize it weird because like it's not their best selling Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's not their most important product. That's the iPhone, but it's like their most important high-end
⏹️ ▶️ John product, I guess. Most important high-end Mac. Lots of adjectives get put in here, but the MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro is kind of the standard bearer for the entire Mac platform at this point because most people buy laptops. This is the top laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ John And even though it didn't get a new name and just got this stupid suffix, this is the top of the MacBook Pro line, as as
⏹️ ▶️ John evidenced by the price, which we'll get to.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but this, I'm just, I'm so, I'm so happy to see this. Like, again, like, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does show our damage, like how, how much we were honestly gaslit for a few years there,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco um to whatever degree that a computer can do that to a fan group. But Um, it was, it was a rough
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time being a fan of these computers for like four years. And they've just been getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better and better and better since then. And again, like the rumors came around, they were going to read us on the Mac Pro And we all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were like, uh-oh, you know, getting a little nervous. No, this shows Turnus has his head on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right. Like, And I think this, this bodes very well for the Turnus era
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in hardware. We don't know how he's going to handle a lot of other stuff yet. You know, he's very new to the job. We'll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see how, you know, things like policy decisions. Look, it remains to be seen. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this is showing like, the hardware is in a really good place
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just keeps getting better in all the right ways. I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so happy to see that. And to bring back the logo, the glowing logo on the lid, it's like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, finally, fun. And like a little bit of whimsy and a little bit of respect to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what we used to love about this. Like, you know, enjoying Apple's past, like celebrating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that people love about their computers. That's all here. And I'm so here for it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Keep in mind that the laptops got fixed when Tim Cook was still CEO, whenever that was, 2021 or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John when they finally fixed the laptops and gave it the good keyboard and put the ports back on. And this
⏹️ ▶️ John this these models, these Pro-LED things were started several years ago. So this is all under Tim Cook. These projects are happening.
⏹️ ▶️ John So the turnaround had already happened. Now, granted, Ternus was in charge of hardware that whole time. So it's fair to
⏹️ ▶️ John attribute it to him as well. But the battle had already been won. So in some ways, it was a little bit, again, maybe like
⏹️ ▶️ John irrationally worried for us to think, oh, maybe they're going to screw them up. It's like, well, what has changed inside Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John that would cause them to screw up something given that these computers were started three years ago? And the answer is nothing.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so here we have them. They're normal. I will say for the light of Apple logo,
⏹️ ▶️ John someone somewhere inside Apple slightly gave in to the urge to make the logo bigger, as they
⏹️ ▶️ John say, because I do feel like the Apple on the back of the thing is a little bit bigger than it should be. It's fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's fine. It's just a little bit too big. Maybe they'll fix it in the next one. And unlike,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don't know how actually this works because I don't think I was watching Teardowns when it happened, but people are saying that back in the day when they
⏹️ ▶️ John had the glowing Apple logo, the backlight, the either LED or cold cathode, whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John backlight of the then LCD displays is what you were seeing through the Apple logo. I don't actually know if
⏹️ ▶️ John that's true, but I'm pretty sure it's not true with OLED, which means that the light-up Apple logo has its
⏹️ ▶️ John own lights. Yes. Which means they could do an RGB striped
⏹️ ▶️ Marco color one someday.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don't think they will.
⏹️ ▶️ John They probably never will, but third parties will maybe crack that sucker open and figure out a way to do it. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John everyone who has gone to the event has said and shown that it dims with the monitor. So if
⏹️ ▶️ John you dim the display down with the brightness keys, the thing on the back dims as well. I would imagine it
⏹️ ▶️ John has to be independently controllable somehow because those two things aren't actually connected. It's all just software
⏹️ ▶️ John keeping them in sync. And I do wonder if like in like a dark classroom or something, it would be convenient to be able to like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, cut the light on your external thing. But maybe it doesn't make a difference, but I'm sure someone will figure it out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Down to some bad news. These MacBook Ultra rumors had our heads spinning with all
⏹️ ▶️ John the things that it could be and all our hopes and fears. And one of our hopes was cellular. Nope.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You would think, given how astonishingly expensive these are, which we'll get to,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think that maybe they could find a way to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John throw some cellular in there.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right. Well, you know, look, look, they just didn't take something away. We never had it. We still don't. There you go. And still
⏹️ ▶️ John no face ID, obviously. All right. Let's get to the screen. Let's talk about the screen. Tandem OLED, which is what Apple's
⏹️ ▶️ John been doing for their OLEDs and all their things. It's 14-inch and the 14-inch, well, the 14-inch
⏹️ ▶️ John screen is 22 pixels wider than the non-OLED version. According to Apple's animation
⏹️ ▶️ John on their own website, when they like zoom in on like the pixels of the display, they show the sub-pixel arrangement.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I heard some people saying, I've never seen a sub-pixel arrangement like that. They're on every single OLED monitor and
⏹️ ▶️ John television. This is the classic OLED arrangement of RGB,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it's like a red rect, a green rectangle on top of a red square and to the
⏹️ ▶️ John right of that, a taller blue rectangle. It is not what
⏹️ ▶️ John the current fashion in OLED displays is, which is RGB Stripe, where they do a red, a green,
⏹️ ▶️ John and a blue stripe, just like they are in LEDs. RGB stripe OLEDs
⏹️ ▶️ John do exist. Many manufacturers sell them in very, many different shapes and sizes on big monitors, small
⏹️ ▶️ John monitors, phones, blah, blah, blah. This doesn't have one. It's not as big a deal on the Mac because
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS many, many years ago stopped doing subpixel anti-aliasing, which is where they use the
⏹️ ▶️ John R, the G, and the B subpixels as a way to make jaggy lines by using individual subpixels.
⏹️ ▶️ John The Mac hasn't done that in years and doesn't. But if you're using an OS that does do that, like Windows,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you don't have an RGB stripe subpixel layout and you try to look at text, they get weird color fringing on
⏹️ ▶️ John them. I don't think it will be noticeable on this. Have you noticed it on your phone? Because guess what? Your phone doesn't have an RGB stripe screen
⏹️ ▶️ John either and hasn't in the entire OLED era. So just FYI, this is not an RGB stripe OLED.
⏹️ ▶️ John I still think RGB Stripe OLEDs are nicer, if only because like of the, I think this is what
⏹️ ▶️ John they call the pixel aperture ratio, like how much of each pixel is light up and how much is not. If you look at
⏹️ ▶️ John the sub pixel thing on Apple's page, you'll see, boy, a lot of that pixel is just black space. With RGB Stripe,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you can shrink it, then you get a red, a green, and a blue stripe pretty close to each other. So most of the pixel
⏹️ ▶️ John is light up and that helps with brightness and power use and all sorts of other stuff. So anyway, it's
⏹️ ▶️ John an amazing screen, but be aware it is not RGB Stripe. Um, Apple says that the touch
⏹️ ▶️ John center is built directly into the display panel, not layered on top of it, reducing latency. So users feel like they're touching
⏹️ ▶️ John the content itself, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I think that's pretty much standard. One of their ads, the short version, or
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it's a long one, one of their videos says burn-in protection. And
⏹️ ▶️ John then it's never mentioned again. And I can't find anything on Apple's website. What do
⏹️ ▶️ John you mean, burn-in protection? There's lots of different kinds of burn-in protection. There's pixel cycling where
⏹️ ▶️ John they they provision extra pixels on the display, not pixel cycling, like uh pixel shifting, where they
⏹️ ▶️ John provision extra pixels and then move the display around a few pixels at a time so that it's not in the
⏹️ ▶️ John same exact place. There's you know, static logo detection where they're all stuff from the TV industry.
⏹️ ▶️ John None of these things can really help in the end because if you have some element that's on your
⏹️ ▶️ John screen and it's very bright and it doesn't move, shifting it around is just going to smear the burn-in
⏹️ ▶️ John edges, which is better than a sharp burn-in edge, but it's still burning. And
⏹️ ▶️ John reminder, how burn in an OLED is because the pixels have organic material in them that wears out
⏹️ ▶️ John the more you use it. And the more you use it, meaning how bright are you driving these pixels in whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John these sub pixels in whatever color? So that's just the nature of OLED. Over time, they wear out. They have
⏹️ ▶️ John compensation cycles that they run where they try to figure out how much the pixels have worn out and try to
⏹️ ▶️ John under drive the pixel, other pixels around them so it continues to maintain an even display. Again, this is
⏹️ ▶️ John nothing new. Our phones have had OLED forever. Our iPads have had OLED for a pretty long time. Now a Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John has OLED. Granted, a Mac is a different environment than your phone. Your phone is, you know, even with the always-on
⏹️ ▶️ John display that's kind of dim and you're turning it on and off and putting it away. Same thing with iPads. A Mac could be on all
⏹️ ▶️ John the time. Maybe it's bringing back the purpose of screensavers.
⏹️ ▶️ John Back in the day with CRTs, you know, there was like a reason for it. And now with OLEDs, maybe there's a reason for screensaver.
⏹️ ▶️ John We saw just pretty images just to get changing pixels on your screen. But maybe for next week,
⏹️ ▶️ John I would love to learn more about what Apple is doing for burn-in protection because they did mention
⏹️ ▶️ John no. It does have a touchscreen. We'll get to that in a second. We didn't mention it before. Sorry.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco We're just assuming you all know
⏹️ ▶️ John the rumors. Anyway, no Apple Pencil support.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So you can touch the
⏹️ ▶️ John screen, but you can't poke it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's, look, having experimented a lot with the Apple Pencil with the iPhone Duo, with like, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good on a surface, you're not going to like flip your laptop up on its
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen so that it's against the desk.
⏹️ ▶️ John They'd have to have the screen like bend around backwards, you know, like other things do.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like original
⏹️ ▶️ Marco convertible type tablet PCs did that. Um, yeah, that's, you don't want that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So anyway, just FYI, no touchscreen doesn't mean pencil, no pencil support. It's it's promotion,
⏹️ ▶️ John 120 hertz, 1,000 nits sustained 2,000 nits max, which is really nice. And
⏹️ ▶️ John they'll do 1,000 nits sustained. So they'll do 1,000 nits in SDR for like outdoors and 2,000 peak.
⏹️ ▶️ John Nanotexture is $150 bucks extra. The non-nanotexture
⏹️ ▶️ John has what Apple says is a state-of-the-art anti-reflective coating. I don't know if that means it's the same anti-reflective
⏹️ ▶️ John coating they've always had on the screen, but they made a little bit of hay about how their anti-reflective coating is better
⏹️ ▶️ John and supposedly better for touching the screen as well. It's also got all the Apple's color calibration
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff with their color Apple color matching function 2026 that we talked about in the past episode. um
⏹️ ▶️ John it supports gen lock so you can synchronize the with uh well, here's I'll read Apple's thing
⏹️ ▶️ John because i don't honestly, I don't know what Genlock is. With support for Genlock, MacBook Pro with
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro XDR display synchronizes the display's refresh rate with the camera's capture to minimize
⏹️ ▶️ John ghosting, tearing, and other visual artifacts. There you go. It's syncing with the camera. So you what you're seeing on the screen is
⏹️ ▶️ John uh in sync with what the camera is seeing in its sensor. And finally, for the screen, it has a dynamic
⏹️ ▶️ John island instead of a notch, which we talked about at length about how this would manifest itself.
⏹️ ▶️ John I still think it's a little weird, but software wise, Apple is doing what you would expect. So now
⏹️ ▶️ John that it's a dynamic island and not a notch, everything expands from that area. I don't know if it does this in the notch ones. You guys
⏹️ ▶️ John can tell me, but do they do the same thing with like when you do a Siri? Does it pop out of the notch or does it just go in the middle
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It just pops up in the middle of the screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Well, with this one, everything comes out of the new dynamic island. So if you have like a live activity
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, if you're someone sending you airdrop and it says accept decline on my Mac, I see the accept decline
⏹️ ▶️ John thing in the upper right corner as a notification. But on this thing, it grows out of the dynamic island top center of
⏹️ ▶️ John your screen. The dynamic island is very small. It is like it's not a circle,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it's like a very, very small. It's almost like two circles connected by straight lines when the two circles are touching
⏹️ ▶️ John each other. It is very small. But because there's a dynamic island and not a notch,
⏹️ ▶️ John it does not go to the top of the screen. So there's a bunch of light up pixels above the dynamic
⏹️ ▶️ John island. That's what makes it an island. I think that's a little silly because what benefit
⏹️ ▶️ John am I getting from that? If it was up to me, I would say, could you move that dynamic island up so it touches the
⏹️ ▶️ John top of the screen and becomes a notch? So I get more pixels below it because that's what's more important
⏹️ ▶️ John to me is the pixels below it. And in one of Apple's screenshots, they show the dynamic island.
⏹️ ▶️ John First of all, in all their screenshots, they show it with the, I forget if this is the default, but they show it with the
⏹️ ▶️ John not visible menu bar, like where the menu bar has no background whatsoever, right? Because that's how
⏹️ ▶️ John they want you to think of the display. Like, oh, the menu bar, it's barely even there. It's just words floating on nothing. And
⏹️ ▶️ John then the dynamic island is between the words. They show like, this is some 3D program
⏹️ ▶️ John that has so many menus that they span through the dynamic island. So it's like
⏹️ ▶️ John volume, MoGraph, character. The next menu title is animate,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it doesn't fit between the character menu title and the dynamic island. So there's a bunch of blank
⏹️ ▶️ John space. Then there's the dynamic island. Then it says animate, simulate, tracker. These are all menu, you know, menu bar,
⏹️ ▶️ John menu title names. And then I look at the dynamic island and I'm like, is that dynamic island
⏹️ ▶️ John lower than the bottom of where the menu bar background would be? Because if you move that dynamic
⏹️ ▶️ John island up so it touched the top of the screen, you could make the menu bar narrower and
⏹️ ▶️ John get back some pixels. I don't know. I mean, it just I'm bothered by, I'm bothered by this thing taking up
⏹️ ▶️ John space on my screen. Vertical space, to be clear, not horizontal space, vertical space. Because again,
⏹️ ▶️ John like the whole point of this is like, well, if it wasn't there, we'd have to have the camera in the bezel and you would lose those things
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway. It's like, it's all a bonus. I get it. But moving it down from the top of the screen is not
⏹️ ▶️ John a win for me. So I'm not, I mean, granted, I don't even use laptops, but I'm not a particular fan of this. I do love how tiny
⏹️ ▶️ John it is. It's very, very tiny width-wise. It's much tinier than the notch. We're getting there, but I don't like those
⏹️ ▶️ John light of pixels above it. Sorry. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sure it won't bother most people.
⏹️ ▶️ John Touch support. Now, we're getting to it. So it is, it's a touch screen. Okay. So a bunch of people have
⏹️ ▶️ John input on this. and they really, In the little presentation that they gave, which apparently was not very long. It was not live
⏹️ ▶️ John screened, but a lot of people in the audience have shown segments on it. So I feel like I've watched the entire thing. Turner came out and
⏹️ ▶️ John said, we got new Mac Pros. They have Touch. They have a lot of Apple logo. Here they go. And go into the room and take a look at them.
⏹️ ▶️ John It was longer than that, but it was not much longer. So here's Stephen Levy at Wired quoting
⏹️ ▶️ John John Ternus talking about touch stuff. Because of course, everyone's going,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you said you were never going to do touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac. You said touch isn't good in the Mac, blah, blah, blah. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John so here's Ternus explaining it. The Mac is first and foremost
⏹️ ▶️ John an indirect input device built around the trackpad and keyboard. But I think there's times when it's
⏹️ ▶️ John comfortable and handy to have touch. We need to get to a point where adding touch didn't
⏹️ ▶️ John make the product lesser in any way. It didn't make it heavier. It didn't make it thicker. That came together with the OLED
⏹️ ▶️ John screen, the best display we've ever put in a Mac. All these things, and oh yeah, it has touch as well. So Ternus'
⏹️ ▶️ John explanation, and this is very clear both in what Ternus says and what all the other C-level executives are saying,
⏹️ ▶️ John also in the developer videos that we're going to talk about in a little bit, every piece of Apple messaging is the same.
⏹️ ▶️ John The Mac is for keyboard and mouse, trackpad, whatever. That's the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John interface. But it also has touch now. And that is reflected in the software
⏹️ ▶️ John they provide as well. Because that's the question all the people are asking. You said we would never do touch. Touch
⏹️ ▶️ John sucks on the Mac. It's uncomfortable. You shouldn't do whatever. And what they're trying to say is we wanted to do it in a way
⏹️ ▶️ John that didn't compromise the thing at all. And it's not going to become a touch device. It's just not.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's a Mac. You use a keyboard, you use a trackpad. It's got a pointer. It's indirect input, which again, great because
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac was the original direct input. But anyway, uh, in the modern day, in the age of touchscreens,
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac has indirect input and it still does. And they're not changing that. And I keep emphasizing it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, More from Jaws, Greg Jawsweak, justifying the, but you said Apple would
⏹️ ▶️ John never do this. He says, most pros own an iPad and almost every pro owns a
⏹️ ▶️ John phone, an iPhone. So this is something they're natural with. There's a generation of young creators
⏹️ ▶️ John and young people using our MacBook Pros that expect to touch. Well, I think they expect to
⏹️ ▶️ John touch because every other laptop in the world has touch. Also true. Right. Like, and they're right,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, because these people grew up on iPhones, they expect to touch it and everything expects to have a touchscreen. But that's the reality. We talked
⏹️ ▶️ John about this many, many times on this show before these were even like any kind of a concrete rumor that it
⏹️ ▶️ John just makes sense for Apple to add touch because we all see people just stab at the screen
⏹️ ▶️ John with their finger and are kind of surprised when it and disappointed when it doesn't work. And does that mean the Mac is going to become a
⏹️ ▶️ John touch interface? No, but it just means every once in a while it's a convenient thing to do. And for a limited
⏹️ ▶️ John amount of things, it's actually better than using a mouse or a trackpad in some ways.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they even got Johnny Serugi in because remember, he's not just the chip guy anymore. He's the new John Ternus. He's the hardware
⏹️ ▶️ John guy. So Seruji says Mac Touch also involves custom silicon,
⏹️ ▶️ John of course, and a re-architected thermal system to prevent the display from feeling hot when people pinch,
⏹️ ▶️ John stretch, and swipe on it. I haven't used enough touchscreen laptops to know if the
⏹️ ▶️ John screen getting warm is a problem, but I suppose.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it could be. Well, no, it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a problem with the way that MacBook Pros have vented their heat
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically been they suck air in through those slots like under the palm rests and they blow it out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco through the hinge. So it's not, I don't think it's necessarily a problem with other laptops as much as it would be a problem with Apple's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco previous thermal design if they didn't change it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they still do the same, but they say it involves custom silicon, but they don't elaborate. So I'm not sure what the custom silicon is.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then re-architected thermal system would be what you're saying, Marco. Maybe they're sending the hot air out somewhere else or I don't
⏹️ ▶️ John know. But we'll see when they tear these things down.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, I wonder if maybe because the screen is so bright, I wonder if maybe they somehow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have slots in it so that the main fans of the laptop can shoot some air through the screen too.
⏹️ ▶️ John No. So what they do in the TV world,
⏹️ ▶️ John TV manufacturers will buy OLED panels from the one or two makers that make whatever OLED panel they
⏹️ ▶️ John need. But then what the TV makers will do to differentiate their TV set from other people who use the exact
⏹️ ▶️ John same panel is they will all have some kind of innovative, whatever, some kind of proprietary
⏹️ ▶️ John material they slap on the back of the OLED to dissipate heat. We have a special honeycomb
⏹️ ▶️ John graphite layer. We have a special heat spreading copper, whatever. Like everyone's got something that they stick
⏹️ ▶️ John on the back of the OLED to pull heat away from the OLED. And I'm assuming that's what they mean, that they
⏹️ ▶️ John also bought an OLED screen from LG or Samsung or whatever the hell makes this. And then they
⏹️ ▶️ John stuck their own proprietary heat sucking thing to the back of it. Um, That's
⏹️ ▶️ John got to be it. But we'll see with the teardowns. This is Stephen Levy continuing here. Saruji
⏹️ ▶️ John contends that the current touchscreen laptops suffer from wobble when fingers make contact with the display.
⏹️ ▶️ John To minimize this effect, Apple has redesigned the hinge on the MacBook Pro to stabilize it. So I'm very interested
⏹️ ▶️ John to see a teardown of like comparison of the hinge on the OLED MacBook Pro to the non-OLED
⏹️ ▶️ John one. But that's a claim right from Suruji that the other laptop wobble
⏹️ ▶️ John and ours, I guess, wobbles less. Because as you said, Marco, it's not like you're going to, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you push your finger on the top of a laptop display, it's going over. Like it's just
⏹️ ▶️ John just, that's also how you adjust
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be too hard to push because that's how you operate it. Yeah, and opening and everything.
⏹️ ▶️ John see. Like they, they've always had the variable effort where it's like it's easy in the beginning, but not too easy. It is
⏹️ ▶️ John a delicate balance. And Apple has done pretty well with hinges, setting aside the uh, the duo screen
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, which we will talk about in next episode, people. Don't worry. Um, But that's the claim.
⏹️ ▶️ John We'll definitely have to check that out. Now, here is an article from Wired with Terrence O'Brien and
⏹️ ▶️ John Antonio G.D. Benedetto. Oh, no, not Wired, the Verge. Sorry.
⏹️ ▶️ John They say Apple is adjusting Mac OS to handle touch by magnifying some controls when you poke
⏹️ ▶️ John at them, like the red, yellow, and green traffic light buttons in the top left corner of Windows to close, minimize, and maximize an app.
⏹️ ▶️ John Similarly, tapping to open a dropdown menu magnifies it, giving you a bigger target. And while MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro hinges are pretty solid, yes, you can make it wobble pretty easily with some firm taps on the top
⏹️ ▶️ John of the screen. So that's two things. One, is commenting on the wobble. Yes, you can still make it wobble. They don't comment on whether it's
⏹️ ▶️ John better or worse than it was before. And then the adjustments to macOS. They posted this
⏹️ ▶️ John before Apple started posting its own videos, one of which we'll link, which is designed for touch on Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they go through and explain in this video pretty succinctly, here's what we're doing. And their answer is,
⏹️ ▶️ John everything looks the same. Nothing looks different. Everything measures the same. Your apps aren't
⏹️ ▶️ John going to break. The Mac is a keyboard and indirect input device, but we added
⏹️ ▶️ John touch support. And that's the message. And it is very clear. And it is refreshing as a Mac developer that they
⏹️ ▶️ John haven't like made a giant Fisher price version of Mac OS or they haven't broken the layout in every single one
⏹️ ▶️ John of our apps, but they have done a tremendous amount of work behind the scenes to make Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John OS touch capable without changing any of that stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don't envy them because so much stuff, especially like AppKit, which is a framework
⏹️ ▶️ John dating back to, I think, the late 80s, early 90s when it was, uh you know, the next step, open
⏹️ ▶️ John step days. That's where all this came from. um that those When they were making
⏹️ ▶️ John that uh UI toolkit, they didn't have a notion of multi-touch on desktop computers.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's like you have one pointer and you can click it somewhere and you can click it on a single
⏹️ ▶️ John control at a time and then you move it and you have dragging. And it's like, what do you mean multiple
⏹️ ▶️ John points on the display that are being quote unquote clicked at the same time? What do you mean multiple things
⏹️ ▶️ John are dragging we have to track all of them? Like that breaks everything. It breaks everything having to do with anything. So to begin
⏹️ ▶️ John with, how they're handling this. First, they had to map all the gestures of like, what does it mean to tap?
⏹️ ▶️ John What does it mean to double tap? And they had to map that to stuff. So like, you know, a click with,
⏹️ ▶️ John they say trackpad, but I'm going to say mouse. Clicking with a mouse is tapping on the screen. Double clicking is
⏹️ ▶️ John the same as double tapping. Drag or flick with two fingers is the same as drag or flick with one finger.
⏹️ ▶️ John There's a thing on a trackpad. You know, when you do two fingers on a trackpad, it's scrolling. That's one finger on the screen because
⏹️ ▶️ John you don't have to take two fingers on the screen to like scroll a Safari window. It's just like on an iPad. Pinch is the same in both
⏹️ ▶️ John places. Context menu is tap with two fingers on a trackpad,
⏹️ ▶️ John but on the screen, you tap and hold. And then drag is click
⏹️ ▶️ John and drag on a trackpad. And on the touch screen, it is tap, hold, and
⏹️ ▶️ John drag. And they demo this. When you tap and hold, the context menu appears, but just ignore that
⏹️ ▶️ John and start to drag. So
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco they've kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of overloaded that one gesture, which is tap and hold, but they're basically out of gestures. They didn't want to make you do two fingers
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. And there's other stuff built into macOS, like three finger swiping on the screen to go back and forth on apps, three finger swiping
⏹️ ▶️ John up on the screen to do like expose and all that stuff. It's what you expect. The next clever
⏹️ ▶️ John thing they've done is what they call expanding controls. And I'm encompassing two things in that. They just talked
⏹️ ▶️ John about one, but one way of expanding controls is they just made the touch areas of controls
⏹️ ▶️ John bigger without making the controls bigger. Kind of like the letter E on the keyboard is, it's the same size visually,
⏹️ ▶️ John but when they think the letter of the word is going to be E, the actual touch target for the letter E is much bigger. They do that with
⏹️ ▶️ John all the controls and all their framework. So like they show like a save button that looks the same size as it always been. But
⏹️ ▶️ John guess what? The touch area extends beyond the bounds of the save button. Same thing with, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John checkboxes and pop-up menus or whatever. The thing on the screen is the same size, but the part that you
⏹️ ▶️ John can touch with your fat finger is much bigger. And they claim the bigger area is
⏹️ ▶️ John coincidentally exactly the old 44 points on the original iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John size that they always said, like a minimum touch target of 44 Nevermind. they violate this all the time, but
⏹️ ▶️ John they're saying that it's whatever it is on on max screen, it's 36 points. And that is equivalent to 44
⏹️ ▶️ John points on the, with the old iOS guidelines. So bully for them for making a matchup.
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly. Now, as for the controls that actually visually expand, we talked about this rumor
⏹️ ▶️ John a while ago, and it is much more tame than I thought it was going to be. So some examples from the video,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you pull down a menu from the menu bar with a mouse or a trackpad, it looks normal. But
⏹️ ▶️ John if you tap that menu with your finger, every item in the menu is spaced
⏹️ ▶️ John out more. It's not double the spacing. It's maybe like 20% more space in between them.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it just makes it easier to tap the item you want or to drag down to the item you want with your finger.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they show it side by side. Basically, your menus get taller. I suppose this
⏹️ ▶️ John could break some people's layout because you, oh, I never expected that menu to go off the end of the screen, but the menuing system will handle that and just having a
⏹️ ▶️ John scroll. But that's one way of expanding controls. Another one, this is one near and dear to
⏹️ ▶️ John my heart. Currently working on an app that has about 50 of these controls in it, the stepper control,
⏹️ ▶️ John where you have a text field and then like an up and a down arrow, and you can make the number in the text field go up and
⏹️ ▶️ John down. That may be the smallest standard control in macOS because the stepper is the same height
⏹️ ▶️ John as the text field, but the stepper has an up like little chevron and a down
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. So it's half the height of a text field. That's how big the buttons are.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's fine to hit them with a trackpad or a mouse because you got a little pointer and it's very accurate and you have pixel precision with it.
⏹️ ▶️ John But try hitting the up or down stepper with your finger. That's really hard. So the
⏹️ ▶️ John way they do it is if you touch that little stepper, the little stepper control expands
⏹️ ▶️ John to be like four times the height and twice the width it was before with big, fat,
⏹️ ▶️ John friendly, touch friendly buttons. So you touch it once and it's like whoop and it zooms out into this big capsule of
⏹️ ▶️ John touch size control. So then you can go tap, tap, tap, up, up, down. You can drag
⏹️ ▶️ John between them. That's very clever. Sliders, they do the same thing. Sliders are fine to control
⏹️ ▶️ John with your finger, but what if the slider is really short? And when you put your finger on it, you can't even see where it is in the slider
⏹️ ▶️ John anymore because maybe the slider is only twice the width of your finger. Now when you tap a slider, it zooms out to be
⏹️ ▶️ John this big, giant slider floating above your UI and then you can use it more easily. And then the
⏹️ ▶️ John final example they gave was a control that I haven't seen in ages, but it's the little like circular
⏹️ ▶️ John volume dial control that is about the same, again, about the same height as a text field. And you can
⏹️ ▶️ John like rotate it. You tap that sucker and it becomes, I don't know, 10 times the
⏹️ ▶️ John height with a little touch thumb that you can scroll
⏹️ ▶️ John around with. So again, this only happens when you touch it with your finger. When you use it with the mouse, it's the same as it always was.
⏹️ ▶️ John When you touch it with your finger, some bigger thing appears. That first touch doesn't count towards editing using
⏹️ ▶️ John the control. It just makes the bigger control appear and then you use it with your finger. And that's
⏹️ ▶️ John basically it. That's what they've done to macOS to make it more touch friendly. Setting aside all the other stuff of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John of course, you can pinch and zoom in in maps and you could swipe to scroll and, you know, all the things that you would expect to work everywhere.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you're using an iPad app or an iPhone app in the iPhone simulator, now you can just touch
⏹️ ▶️ John it on your screen. I know you keep your things up in clamshell mode, but that might actually be useful to actually touch
⏹️ ▶️ John your you know, simulator thing instead of using the weird like virtual circular fingers or holding down
⏹️ ▶️ John option or whatever the heck you do these days. Whatever the kids these days do, their option keys. I don't know.
⏹️ ▶️ John Do you guys do stuff in the, you have to use your apps in the simulator. You're not always using it on a device, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John All the time, yeah. Yeah, well, I don't know. But if you have, you have your desktop laptop in clamshell mode, you're not
⏹️ ▶️ John going to be able to take advantage of this. So you should open
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the display up and now you can touch it.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can touch it in the simulator. Oh, yeah. One of the other things they showed in lots of the software demos, this is not
⏹️ ▶️ John a sort of OS-level framework thing, although it kind of is. They showed like, I don't know what app this is. Let's
⏹️ ▶️ John pretend it's logic, but some app that has like a on-screen representation of the level sliders that
⏹️ ▶️ John you would see in like physical level sliders in like a music studio. And you can just move four of them at once.
⏹️ ▶️ John Put four fingers on the screen, grab them, go them up, or, you know, like it's something you can't do with the mouse because the mouse,
⏹️ ▶️ John you click one of the virtual sliders, but you always see them in like the, you know, 70s music studio. You got your hands on the sliders
⏹️ ▶️ John and they're moving multiple sliders at the same time. Go ahead. Of course, they show an on-screen piano keyboard.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now you can play piano with multiple fingers on your screen. Couldn't do that before with the mouse cursor. So yeah, all
⏹️ ▶️ John the normal stuff that you would think would work does work. And how practical is that? How many people are going to be adjusting
⏹️ ▶️ John the faders with multiple fingers on the screen of their laptop? I don't know, but it's a thing you can do now
⏹️ ▶️ John because it is a multi-touch screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I think this is a great way to have done it. And we've been saying for years, like they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably do need to add touch screens to their laptops because everything else is a touch screen in everyone's lives.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Young people expect every screen to be a touchscreen. Many people touch their laptops now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they are accustomed to touching everything else in their lives of all ages.
⏹️ ▶️ John And we've talked about I've pinched in Zoom paper magazines sometimes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. Like we've
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John all done that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We've all done it at least once. And so I think enough people expect
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screens to be touchable and to respond to things like pinching and scrolling that if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have a major computing device that doesn't have touch screen input now, it feels broken to a lot of people. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they had to do it. And they didn't, I'm glad they didn't basically turn macOS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into iPadOS to do it. They did like little adjustments here and there,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but for the most part, macOS will still look and work the same way as it did before when everyone's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not touching it. That is exactly the right amount of accommodation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I think it deserves. And so again, I think they did a really nice job so far. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, we haven't used it yet, so we'll see what it's like in use. I don't personally plan to touch my screen almost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever. The one thing I will be curious to see is like with the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new screen, you know, they've redone the whole laptop. There's a whole new screen stack in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Will it be better, and maybe this is part of the consideration for like making it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco touchable and maintaining that long term. Will it be better at resisting the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard imprint problem on the screen?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And if you do get the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard imprint, will it be more easily cleanable?
⏹️ ▶️ John Why do you think it would be better?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because if they are making a screen that's designed to be touched, maybe they've made it a little more cleanable.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I'm hoping for.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don't know about that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, it's kind of, you know, I know it's a bit of a stretch, a bit of a wishlist
⏹️ ▶️ Marco item there, but since it will now be even dirtier for many people because they will be touching it regularly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would be nice to have.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe all the fingerprints will hide the key cap.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You know, because you see it now because the
⏹️ ▶️ John key grease makes little like squares,
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe there'll be so many fingerprints that'll just be like, it'll blend in. Anyway, I don't plan
⏹️ ▶️ John on touching my screen, but I'm glad that it's there. Getting back to the hardware finally, it comes in space black and silver.
⏹️ ▶️ John No new colors. The SOC, I saw a grouper, grouper who's obviously not keeping
⏹️ ▶️ John up too much with the rumors or doesn't believe them anyway. It's like, people are saying that there's not going to be an M6
⏹️ ▶️ John Max or Pro. That seems weird. It's like, yeah, that's the rumor. And guess what? It's true.
⏹️ ▶️ John You get an M5 Pro or an M5 Max with binned and non-binned varieties that I believe are essentially the same binning
⏹️ ▶️ John and non-binning for the as the non-OLED version, because
⏹️ ▶️ John these are chips that have already been in MacBook Pros with all the same price adjustments
⏹️ ▶️ John and everything that go with them, which is annoying. Size and weight. Here's where we get some
⏹️ ▶️ John interesting stuff because as Mark already alluded, like the rumors about this, we're worried, like, oh no, the last
⏹️ ▶️ John late big rumor that you talked about where Gurman said it's going to be considerably lighter. Oh no, are they going to
⏹️ ▶️ John take out battery? Are they going to make it too thin? Are they going to remove ports? So here's the size difference. 14 inch
⏹️ ▶️ John is almost exactly the same size, but not quite. The
⏹️ ▶️ John biggest difference is that it is 0.2 inches thinner, but it is 0.07
⏹️ ▶️ John inches less wide and 0.16 inches less deep. So it is smaller everywhere, but mostly
⏹️ ▶️ John where you're going to notice it is thinner. But here's the real stat that wins. One half a pound
⏹️ ▶️ John lighter. Both the M5 Pro and the M5 Max version are one half a pound lighter.
⏹️ ▶️ John So in a thing that used to be three and a half pounds, now it's three. That is good weight
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. You will notice that. Like when you pick it up,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you will notice that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that brings it almost to the weight of the MacBook Air, which is 2.7.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it and this is 3.0. That's very, like going from 3.5 to 3.0,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you will feel that and it will feel a lot like the MacBook Air. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John And like I said, it's a little bit thinner too and a little bit smaller all around. The 16-inch, same deal, although
⏹️ ▶️ John not as big a difference is 0.03 inches thinner, 0.01 inches less wide, 0.15
⏹️ ▶️ John inches less deep, 0.7 pounds lighter. Holy cow. Went from 4.7
⏹️ ▶️ John pounds to 4 pounds.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's, again, amazing.
⏹️ ▶️ John three quarters of a pound.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, a top tier laptop. And these go to the respective 0.1 pounds
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you put the M5 Max chip
⏹️ ▶️ John I don't know what the 0.1 pounds is, I guess maybe. heat.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Heat sink, I bet. Dissipation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, because the way they built the Mac Studio for a while is like… The Ultra
⏹️ ▶️ John had a copper heat sink.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the standard chip had like, you know, probably an aluminum heat sink or something. And then the big one had a copper one. They're probably doing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it's still that way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that's my guess. I mean, you know, the actual… You
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M5 Max weighs more? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John does weigh more, but.
⏹️ ▶️ John chip definitely does
⏹️ ▶️ John more, but it's not enough to matter.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yes, it's probably like a larger heatsink or something, and that's great.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's amazing that they didn't emphasize this more because like, they lost weight. They didn't lose a lot
⏹️ ▶️ John of size. they they They lost a little bit of thickness, but somehow, somewhere, they lost weight.
⏹️ ▶️ John And as Marco said before, and as we'll get to it, they didn't remove battery capacity. It's exactly the same bat.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it's probably exactly the same batteries. like it Maybe it's, we'll find out. like Is it literally
⏹️ ▶️ John the same battery that's in the existing M5 Pro and M5 Max
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the um the 14 inch gained like 0.1 watt hours or something. So it's like a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slightly different spec. But i that's the thing. i I'm looking forward to the teardowns of this because you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of times I fix it with like you know weigh the different components or whatever. I really want to know like where the weight savings come
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from. It can't all be backlights for the screen. like There has to be something else.
⏹️ ▶️ John They took out the lead weights that were in there before to make it feel expensive. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So looking at this, picture-wise,
⏹️ ▶️ John having just, I made a point to go look at these in the Apple Store because I don't have one of these and I just wanted to look at them again.
⏹️ ▶️ John So when the new ones came out, I would have a comparison. And styling-wise, even though the people who
⏹️ ▶️ John are there in person say, oh, it's a lot like the old model, but it may be a little bit more tapered or whatever. But this
⏹️ ▶️ John looks so much like the existing uh MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John case. Obviously, it's not the same case because every dimension is different, if only fractionally,
⏹️ ▶️ John especially the thickness. But like I said, it has all the same ports. It seems to have exactly the same
⏹️ ▶️ John strategy for cooling, like with those long slits along the sides that the MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Air doesn't have, but the pros do have, you know, for cooling.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the slit on my 14-inch is each side is one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco long slit. This one, they're divided in two. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I wonder if they did that because like the not that because if you make a really long open slit, you can pinch it together in the middle,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Yeah, it could be for structural rigidity, or maybe it's two different channels of air. Maybe, maybe one's an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco exhaust. I don't know. Like, who knows?
⏹️ ▶️ John I do I do find that slit to be slightly uncomfortable when handling these. It's a little bit sharp edge. Maybe they've helped that a
⏹️ ▶️ John little bit. But anyway, if you were to look at this from a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco side… It would be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco acoustic related because you know, they have a bunch of new speakers and stuff in there. I wonder if that's part of the speaker design, too.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it really does look like the current model. So it
⏹️ ▶️ John radically new reimagining of what it looks like. It's basically flat sided round, you know, like all the same kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of practical, no-nonsense, make a rectilinear container with pleasing
⏹️ ▶️ John edges where you can fit all the components. Like we said, all the same ports. You got, I think it's the same ports in the same order.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, same ports in the same places. And thank God. They didn't
⏹️ ▶️ John up the ports. Didn't lose anything. oh we didn't get We didn't get a better SD card slot, but like, whatever. This is, you know, this
⏹️ ▶️ John is a weird thing because, again, this is a computer that they're releasing with the M5 Pro and M5 Max
⏹️ ▶️ John many months after the MacBook pro already got the M5 Pro and M5 Max. So it's not the new M6
⏹️ ▶️ John anything. It's not, you know, like the M6 one is a newer thing with two neural
⏹️ ▶️ John engines and blah, blah, blah. But this is the the Pro and the Max. Anyway, it's it's a little bit of a weird model. Presumably,
⏹️ ▶️ John things will be right again with the M7 when,
⏹️ ▶️ John these things go to the back of the pack. So anyway, yeah, as we said, batteries are the same capacity within
⏹️ ▶️ John 0.1 watts hours or whatever. No change for the ports. MagSafe 3
⏹️ ▶️ John is the same MagSafe that yours has, right? uh I don't even. I think so. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don't know. I
⏹️ ▶️ John think it's the same. um Obviously, Thunderbolt 5, all that other stuff from the other things. RAM,
⏹️ ▶️ John their RAM continues to be torturous. If you get the M5 Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John with the binned one, you can get 24 or 48 at an additional $600.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if you get the unbinned one, you can get 24, 48 with an extra $600 or $64 with an extra thousand.
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 Max, if you want the 30-core GPU, you can only get 36 gigs of RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you want the 40-core GPU, which is the totally unbinned one, you can get 48, 64 at
⏹️ ▶️ John 400 additional bucks, or 128 additional 2000 bucks. Same thing with storage. They have to
⏹️ ▶️ John mess up the configurator. M5 Pro gets one, two or four terabytes with two and four being $500
⏹️ ▶️ John and $1,500 extra. M5 Max, you can get, starts at two, which is nice. Two, four,
⏹️ ▶️ John eight and 16. To go to two to four is 1000 To go to two to eight is 3000 And go
⏹️ ▶️ John to two to 16 is $7,000 additional dollars
⏹️ ▶️ John the SSD space. But wait, the options will get worse on later computers. But yep, $7,000
⏹️ ▶️ John upgrade to your SSD to go from 2 terabytes to 16 terabytes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the first time 16 has been offered in an Apple laptop, so that's good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John If you want to spend
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco If you want to spend
⏹️ ▶️ John multiples of the price of your computer to expand your storage, you can do it. The wireless
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff is all the same as the non-OLED versions, right? Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6, all the other
⏹️ ▶️ John you expect. They made a little bit of hay about the sound. Apple says, high fidelity
⏹️ ▶️ John six speaker sound system with force-canceling woofers. And they say an all new woofer design that provides 50% deeper
⏹️ ▶️ John bass and all new tweeters that shape sound dispersion for remarkable clarity. And for the
⏹️ ▶️ John first time, dedicated audio tuning for closed lid use delivers exceptional
⏹️ ▶️ John sound quality when the MacBook Pro is connected to an external display so users can enjoy a premium
⏹️ ▶️ John audio experience however they work. What does that mean? I am really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco curious. Like, because I've never even thought they would try.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So my best guess here is that when the lid is closed,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe they don't use the speakers that point directly against the screen in that configuration, like the ones
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are aligned with the keyboard. Like maybe they just turn those off and just shoot it out the sides.
⏹️ ▶️ John My first question is, does this mean that they're saying that they drive the speakers on the MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro differently when it's closed? Yes. Or does it mean that when
⏹️ ▶️ John your MacBook Pro is closed and attached next to a monitor, they change the audio leaving
⏹️ ▶️ John your MacBook Pro and going to the monitor?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, that's not how I took it. It's all about what's on the device.
⏹️ ▶️ John So you think they're saying we change how we drive the speakers in your MacBook Pro when it's closed? Correct. That's how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's how I would take it. I mean, I guess the only other, I guess, yeah, they wouldn't like use the laptop as the woofer. I mean, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn't make sense.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because I imagine they do processing on the laptop to be like, hey, when we're driving our weird little speakers inside the laptop,
⏹️ ▶️ John do this. Absolutely.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John definitely do.
⏹️ ▶️ John But when we're driving, when we're sending the audio signal out to the monitor, do something different. Almost
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don't I don't think it's necessarily, well, I guess it's implicitly about the monitor. I think it's just whether or not the damn thing is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey closed, but I guess it won't be closed unless you have a monitor nearby. So I guess
⏹️ ▶️ John weird because they say when it is connected to an external display, but you could have the lid open when it's connected. I don't know. They don't explain.
⏹️ ▶️ John We'll find out. But anyway, they're doing some audio stuff. uh Camera, the only
⏹️ ▶️ John difference they had in their compare thing was advanced video stabilization, which I don't know what they mean. And why is that not
⏹️ ▶️ John on the other models? Cause they literally have the same SOC. So I don't know what that is.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, The charger, they bifurcate that. If you get the M5 Pro, you get 70 watt for free and 96 watt for 20
⏹️ ▶️ John bucks extra. The M5 Max has 96 watt for free.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that your $2,800
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop should come with the right charger no matter what options you have. Right. Yeah, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John It's just 20 bucks extra. You got to nickel and dime you. uh external displays uh
⏹️ ▶️ John they're it's the same as they were on the other ones, but just to remind that if you have an M5 Pro, you can drive
⏹️ ▶️ John up to three external displays over a single cable. If you have M5 Max, you can do four external displays. And the M5 Max
⏹️ ▶️ John has display port 2.1. The M5 Pro does not. In general, the M5 Max has more display
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware and more GPU, so it can do more displays, if that's what you care about. uh Prices,
⏹️ ▶️ John 400 extra bucks uh for uh in addition to the price of the non-OLED.
⏹️ ▶️ John So the M5 Pro version starts at 2,900. For that, you get 24 gigs of RAM, 1 terabyte SSD,
⏹️ ▶️ John and the stupid 70-watt power adapter. The M5 Max version starts at $4,500.
⏹️ ▶️ John For that, you get 36 gigs of RAM, 2 terabyte SSD, and the good power adapter. And if you max this
⏹️ ▶️ John sucker out with an M5 MAX, 128 gigs of RAM, 16 terabyte SSD, and nanotexture, it will be $14,249,
⏹️ ▶️ John half of which is that SSD.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Just bananas. So I genuinely don't know what I'm going to do about this, but I had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey told myself a year or two ago before RAM pricing became low. Uh, I told
⏹️ ▶️ Casey myself that I was going to upgrade once the touch, the touchscreen happened. Not because I necessarily want a touchscreen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, I think the point about using it with a simulator is very valid, but generally speaking, the most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would ever probably do with the touchscreen, I think, is scroll from time to time. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I priced one out to basically replace my existing M3 Max MacBook Pro, which I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey don't have any particular problems with, but it's, you know, three-ish years old now, and I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it's roughly time. So I priced out 14-inch space black nanotexture
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M5 Max with no binning because I want 64 gigs of RAM, which is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I currently have. I want eight terabytes of storage, which is what I currently have. And I'm getting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey astonishingly close to filling because I really like having all my photos and some other stuff all the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey time. If I don't trade anything in, the total price to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey buy is $8,649, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is astonishingly expensive. Just ridiculously expensive. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then I asked myself, well, if I do this, should I lease
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it? Which I generally
⏹️ ▶️ John no, no. Please, please, let me stop you. Let me
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey stop you. Okay, yeah, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John You connect your laptop to three giant monitors. You never even look at the screen. The only
⏹️ ▶️ John difference between this one and then the existing M5 Max and M5 Pro MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Pros is the screen. The screen means nothing to you. If you want to get a new laptop, get the non-OLED
⏹️ ▶️ Casey well it went $400 on top of $8,600? Like at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that point? Yeah, well, that's
⏹️ ▶️ John because of your eight, eight terabyte SSD
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey is really going to kill you.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is. And I mean, and yes, I know people are going to write me like, you really need the eight terabyte SSD?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I don't suppose I need it. but,
⏹️ ▶️ John you do if you're filling it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that's the other thing. But I could make moves, so I don't need it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I should tell you some of my sob story about that in a future episode.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, please. I would love
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John to. But I tried
⏹️ ▶️ John to save money on mine to do four terabyte, and it's a juggling act. But anyway, continue.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. That's what I'm saying. And so I don't particularly want to downgrade, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don't know if I want to spend $86.50 on a new machine. And then I'm looking at leasing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I figure, you know, unlike a car, which we actually did lease Aaron's car, and I hate that we did. It's just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey leasing is not my cup of tea. I'm not saying it's, again, like the duo conversation. I'm not saying it's wrong for everyone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just don't like it. But I thought to myself, well, I mean, I upgrade a computer every two to three to four
⏹️ ▶️ Casey years. So it may make sense in this context, especially with this pricing being absolutely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bananas. But a lease is $183
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a month, which is also astonishing. So And I computed it, what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is it, $183. So it's actually $182 and change, but $183 times 36
⏹️ ▶️ Casey months is $6,588 or thereabouts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are also some tax differences for business expenses there that might be relevant, but agreed, you know, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, that is obviously a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John of money. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco look, you're talking about a $10,000 purchase.
⏹️ ▶️ John But like this is, this is such the wrong time to buy because this
⏹️ ▶️ John is a weird generation where the latest and greatest MacBook Pros have the same exact
⏹️ ▶️ John SOCs as the ones that have already been out. The big selling point of this one is it's lighter,
⏹️ ▶️ John which you don't mostly care about, and it's got a display and it's got a touch a touch display and an OLED display.
⏹️ ▶️ John And again, you're looking at your three big 5Ks. You're not looking at the touch display. It's like, do not spend
⏹️ ▶️ John two hundred dollars a month or $8,000 up front. And granted, like, you're like, well, I have an M3, so it
⏹️ ▶️ John is a big deal for me. But like, wait, like of all the years to buy a new MacBook Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John unless you were dying for touch or unless you're like, I use this screen all the time and OLED's gonna make a big difference in my life,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is not the time to spend that much money. Now, if you were getting a base model, you're like, all right, well, $2,900
⏹️ ▶️ John bucks and I'm gonna get a 14 inches fine. Like, that's more reasonable. And that lease would be more reasonable.
⏹️ ▶️ John because you crave the eight terabyte SSD and because you need 64 gigs of RAM and because we're in Ramageddon,
⏹️ ▶️ John it just blows everything all out of proportion. And like, if you're going to spend that wad of cash, get the
⏹️ ▶️ John latest and greatest SOC. Get something with an M7, get something with an M8 or something. I definitely think you should wait.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, no. I mostly agree with you. I take a couple of minor issue with a couple things you said. Like, for example, I do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey care about the quality of the screen, even though you're right. Most of the time, I'm not looking at it.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey one day a week,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, again, you're not wrong. But that being said, the thing that I'm worried
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about is, do I really think Ramageddon is going to get better in the next year or two? Because
⏹️ ▶️ John Give it three years.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But that's the thing. In three years, I'm 100% going to be replacing this computer.
⏹️ ▶️ John Don't you want to live like me a little bit and just
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey be desperate
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey computer? No, sure don't.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco John, as much as I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco love you, no, absolutely
⏹️ ▶️ John But that's what happened to me. I was desperate at exactly the wrong time. And Casey, you're not desperate at exactly
⏹️ ▶️ John the wrong time, which is now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean, I guess you're right. I just, am I screwing future Casey? Because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what did we say the eight terabyte SSD is? Where was that? It's $3,000. Is it going to be
⏹️ ▶️ John Although, by the way, I'm pricing. I didn't get to the second part of the pricing, which is the 16 inch. You're like, oh, that one starts at 3,400.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, specs of the same 24 gigs, one terabyte, and the and the max starts at uh 4,800.
⏹️ ▶️ John But then you go to the maxed out version of the 16-inch, and the maxed out version of the 16-inch is $14,549.
⏹️ ▶️ John And because you probably didn't memorize the number I said before, you're like, wait, isn't that the same price as the 14 inch?
⏹️ ▶️ John Once you get up to the maxed out price, the price of like the 16-inch screen versus
⏹️ ▶️ John the 14-inch, like that just becomes noise.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco If you don't
⏹️ ▶️ John remember, the maxed out 14-inch was $14,249
⏹️ ▶️ John and the 16-inch is $14,549. Practically the same price. It's like when you buy a
⏹️ ▶️ John car and you're like, oh, what's $200 bucks for floor mats because you're buying a $30,000 car, right? It's
⏹️ ▶️ John all the 16 terabyte SSD and the RAM. That's what you're paying for and some other stuff that comes with it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the MacBook Pro, like the last generation MacBook Pro was always priced that way, It was like all the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pricing basically, but the 16-inch was a few hundred bucks more at every single tier.
⏹️ ▶️ John And once you get into 15 grand, a few hundred bucks becomes line noise.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but also like, I mean, look, I'm not going to say these are amazing prices.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They're not. I think if Apple adds a high-end option, like a 16-terabyte
⏹️ ▶️ Marco disk that literally didn't exist before, and everyone's like, it's now $15,000.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, yeah, but no one's going to buy that.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's now. It says Mr. Dino Lobster.
⏹️ ▶️ John you're going to go and you're like, oh, look, I needed a 16-inch MacBook Pro, and the only one they had came with a 16-terabyte
⏹️ ▶️ John SSD, so I bought it for $15,000. I'm
⏹️ ▶️ John return it in 14 days. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, but like. do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop now. I do, but I'll get to that. Can
⏹️ ▶️ John going home to your wife and saying, I needed a laptop, so I bought one for 15 grand, but don't worry,
⏹️ ▶️ John going to return it.
⏹️ ▶️ John the only one they have.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, but I feel like people are like, they raised the price to $15,000. Like, that's not, that's kind of disingenuous.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann okay, they added
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an option that almost no one's going to buy, and that's higher. But when you look at like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what the, where the pricing is now, yeah, compared to where it was 10 years ago, it's a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of money. But like the M3 Max that I have now, like, that was like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seven thousand dollars when I bought it, three three ish whatever it was years ago that that was.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And to replace it with the same specs now, it's about, I think it's about $8,000
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or $10,000. So it's more, but but that's the environment we're living in.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, they didn't make the thing out of solid gold just to you know jack the price up. like
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I'm not saying it's egregiously expensive. I'm just saying, like, this is, this is like Apple is enjoying a grace
⏹️ ▶️ John period in which all the price increases, we say, well, yeah, that makes sense because we know their costs are increasing
⏹️ ▶️ John and we know they're just passing it on to us, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they're going to make their margin, but they were already before. Like, what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying is, like, the increased prices now, it's just a, a Ramageddon
⏹️ ▶️ Marco inflated version of what they've been doing since the beginning of time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so, yes, these are expensive computers. They've always been expensive computers. And what you, if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco compare this, you know, try to price out like a PC workstation laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has anywhere near these specs. Like, you're not going to get stuff that's that much cheaper if it matches the spec
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for spec. And if you don't need these specs, great. Apple offers laptops from $600
⏹️ ▶️ John And also these very same laptops without an OLED screen for less money.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, exactly. So like these are the top of the line. And if you need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or want it, that's what the top of the line costs.
⏹️ ▶️ John And speaking of top of the line, just going to throw this one in there. When the Mac Studio came out, they said, and you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, you can get it with up to 512 gigs of RAM, but actually 512 gigs of RAM isn't available now. It'll be coming in
⏹️ ▶️ John October. Well, it's here. And if you go to the Mac Studio configurator and you upgrade the RAM from
⏹️ ▶️ John 96 gigs, which is the minimum on the spec where you can go up to 512, you go from 96 gigs to
⏹️ ▶️ John 512 gigs. That option, I think this is the champ for the highest price option that you
⏹️ ▶️ John can click in a configurator to say, hmm, I'm going to go from 96 gigs of RAM to 512 gigs
⏹️ ▶️ John of RAM. That will be an additional $15,500 for that
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey change in RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's a car. It's a car. Just one option, just changing the RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's not the price of the computer. That is RAMageddon for you in a nutshell. So there
⏹️ ▶️ John we are. And by the way, the maxed out Mac Studio is now $29,800.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, Yeah, that's a hell of a lot of RAM, but just FYI, that that is how much it costs. If, hey,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you need to do local AI and you want to gang together four of these things, it still might be cheaper than one of those
⏹️ ▶️ John $50,000 NVIDIA things, but I'm not sure.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I think this looks really good on the whole. Um, I don't think I disagree with you,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, that because there's nothing actively like broken about my current computer, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey don't know that it's the right time to upgrade. The only thing that worries me is I genuinely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey worry that RAM pricing is going to get in SSD pricing is going to get worse, not better. And if that's the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey case, I should buy now. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John yeah, I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John it really depends. on like, Here's the thing. Having just gone to essentially a downgrade in specs,
⏹️ ▶️ John I have less RAM and a smaller SSD because prices, right? Having just done that, the
⏹️ ▶️ John convenience of an M3 with the RAM and the SSD you want
⏹️ ▶️ John versus an M5 without the RAM and SSD you want, I would stick with the M3 in a heartbeat,
⏹️ ▶️ John just because like the day-to-day convenience of having all the RAM and all the disk space you need versus having
⏹️ ▶️ John that all of a sudden
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to be the thing you have to
⏹️ ▶️ John worry about. And to be clear, I haven't needed to worry about RAM, but I have had to worry about disk space. That inconvenience
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn't make it feel like a fancy new computer. And to be clear, I cheaped out on
⏹️ ▶️ John my M5 Max Mac Studio as much as I possibly could to try to make it so like, yeah, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John it's not as maxed out as my whole computer, but this is a time you over computer. and I didn't spend that much for it.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know what I mean? Like that's, that was my goal. Um, So if you're looking at this and you're
⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, it's so expensive, maybe I should get the lower spec one. Like that, I feel like that would be a downgrade for you
⏹️ ▶️ John for sure because you've got you've got a system now that does everything you need, It has the capacities that you want,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, that is fine for your purposes. And downgrading from that,
⏹️ ▶️ John especially in disk space, Cause it's like there's no, there's no getting around, right? It would just, it would just feel worse for
⏹️ ▶️ John you. And on the other hand, you try to match those specs, as you said, it's now you're paying eight grand
⏹️ ▶️ John to go for an M3 max to an M5 max. Like that's basically what you're paying for. And yes, it has a nice screen
⏹️ ▶️ John and blah, blah, blah, and stuff like that, you're basically paying for like to be fractionally faster at a bunch of stuff that
⏹️ ▶️ John probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. So I definitely think you should skip these things, just skip them entirely.
⏹️ ▶️ John And even if it turns out SSD prices go up, because they probably will, you probably shouldn't buy next year either.
⏹️ ▶️ John You should probably buy an M8. Like I think, because look at it this way. What is it about your current system
⏹️ ▶️ John that is currently bothering you? Are things too slow and you're twiddling your thumbs and getting distracted because
⏹️ ▶️ John compiles are taking too long? How much faster would they be with an M5? How much faster would they be
⏹️ ▶️ John with an M7 or M8? Like, is that going to make a difference in your life? And the OLED screen, would
⏹️ ▶️ John you even notice? I would. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would. I take your point, though. I would notice, but I take your point.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Marco should
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get one, though. I'm sure Marco already ordered one. Marco did. There it is. What
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did you buy? All right. Oh, God.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They're nice laptops, Casey. It's very nice.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So what I've been doing a lot recently, the number of times that I am away
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from home has just gone up in the last couple of years. I'm bouncing back and forth a lot more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco between the beach. I'm doing a lot more stuff, going back and forth with the city. Oh, we got two of them. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the other thing that's changed massively in the last six months is I'm doing a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco huge amount more agentic software development. And what,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so what I've had is desktop laptop and laptop laptop. Desktop laptop is the M3
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Max, all decked out. I've used it as a desktop. It stays at my house most of the time. If I you know, go to the beach for the summer,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'll bring it. But you know, for the most part, like, I'm traveling with the smaller one when I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just going somewhere for a day or a weekend or something. I'm bringing a smaller one. And I've liked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having two different computers in a lot of ways because I'd run the beta on the small one,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but not the big one and stuff like that. I would treat them differently. But one thing that's getting increasingly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco high of a pain in the butt is trying to coordinate cloud code between
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the two and trying to coordinate any kind of AI project and operation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco between the two because these things just don't share well. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also, because like when I, when I first got the travel one,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M4, the base model M4 14 inch I wasn't writing that much code like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the train and on the ferry. But when I would, I'm like, well, there's only so fast I can type and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm not going to be held back that much by the build speed of this. Well, that is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very different now. Because now, when you're doing a lot of agentic work, you are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco being held back by the build speed a lot. You're being held back by simulator speed a lot. And the simulators
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have gotten so slow. I have been waiting on my laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much these last few months as I've done more agentic coding, which it was the opposite of what I would expect.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that's how it is. Because in the background, Claude's like cranking away, like testing out different things, building test
⏹️ ▶️ Marco suites, running test suites, trying different techniques, trying different things. It's working my computer's butt
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off on my behalf, you know, and it could be doing like three different things at once and different projects.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And those are all just slamming the processor cores with like background Swift compile processes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco background simulator launches, like all sorts of stuff like that. So my plan
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has been, I really should probably upgrade that laptop with this generation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and get, you know, get it like a Pro or Max chip and a bit more RAM so I can do all that stuff a lot better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then next year with the M7 generation, upgrade my desktop laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the way with the 8 terabytes and the 128 gigs of RAM and stuff like that. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that is actually the wrong move. I think the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco move for me is to go back to one computer because of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of this agentic stuff happening. I think I need to go back to one laptop that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is super powerful.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. And, and you know and look, this stuff is changing a lot. So it's possible in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco six months, I might say that's no longer the right move. I don't know. Probably not, but who
⏹️ ▶️ Marco knows? But it is getting increasingly obvious to me that the best way for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my current computing needs to continue is to have one really awesome
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 14-inch MacBook Pro. I did, like for the last you know, couple of days, I've
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been carrying around the 16-inch, trying to use it as just my laptop, laptop. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really don't like the 16-inch for that purpose. It doesn't fit as well in small seats on trains and ferries
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and planes and stuff like that. And I really missed my nanotexture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco display that I have on the 14-inch, even though it has a keyboard imprint in it. And so I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco figured, okay, what is best for me really is to upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the main laptop and retire the travel laptop and just have it be one awesome
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 14-inch. And I could wait for the M7 generation to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. That's probably, if I was John, that's closer to what I would do. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John would never buy a laptop, but that's closer to what I would do. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm not John. I'm me. And so, of course, I ordered one. So I basically maxed it out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in every way except the disc. It was a lot of money. And this is the main way I make all my money. So I think it's worth it. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a business expense in every possible way. And it will literally allow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me to work better and faster almost every day. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having it just have, just be one computer again will, it's not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be better in every way, but I think it's going to allow a lot of efficiencies
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a lot of my workflows and a lot of other stuff. So I'm going to keep the 14-inch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I have now as a backup just in case if I need another Mac, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco install betas on it still. But for the most part, it's probably going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco become a transcription worker machine in my house. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm going to upgrade. So I ordered the, again, the 14-inch, mostly maxed out except for the SSD.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we'll see when it gets here.
⏹️ ▶️ John Are you going to trade in the 16-inch, sell it? Or someone in your house going to use it? Where is that going?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I haven't looked yet to see what is the right move for that. I'll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see what Apple will give me for it, but I don't know. I mean, it's, you know, usually when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things are like very well optioned, usually trade-ins are not very well priced for you. Usually like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a direct sale is better. I don't think I have any immediate family needs for it. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think selling it is probably the right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh I don't know if he cares yet about having his own Mac laptop. He's still, you know, PC
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gaming. I think he's a little young to care about that. But we'll see. Anyway, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that's the plan. High-end 14-inch, replacing both of my current computers, and the M3
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Max is probably going to be sold.
⏹️ ▶️ John I get what you're saying about tray tables and stuff and it taking up more room, but it's like three-quarters of a pound
⏹️ ▶️ John lighter than the old 16-inch. So would that make a difference? Or is it really just the length and the width?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It's really about the screen lid size. You can't open it all the way when you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a small seat.
⏹️ ▶️ John a bigger screen. You're getting Xcode on the 14-inch screen. You're okay with that?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, here's the other thing. I'm using Xcode directly a lot less
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because a lot of the times I'm having Claude fix the bug and then I'm just reviewing it like in tower to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see what did you do. And I see, oh, all right. Yeah, you did it the way I would have done it or better. Great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Check. Done. So I'm actually not spending as much time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maxing out the screen space. Like what I've been doing recently, I went to the beach this past
⏹️ ▶️ Marco weekend as like a little work retreat to get all the stuff out. And I like, I didn't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco spend almost any time in my office. I was like upstairs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco looking out the window with the 14-inch on the kitchen countertop. And I just loved working that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. And that's, I've realized that I've been using the 14 inch more than my big computer just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it allows me to work in other places. And I've never been, you've heard me on this show for a decade. I've
⏹️ ▶️ Marco never been the kind of person who didn't want to do everything possible in my office at my desk with the biggest monitor, with the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco full keyboard, with the mouse, everything like that. But honestly, AI work has changed that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty significantly. And I'm more loving the ability to just be wherever I want to be.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can work better in coffee shops. I can work better at different parts of my house. I can work better while
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm traveling. So my needs have significantly changed and my usage has significantly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changed. So that's great. And when I'm, and look,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I've traveled with a 14-inch for a long time now. So when I do actually dive in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and use Xcode, it's not impossible. I can also, you know, I've edited our podcast on a 14-inch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Again, like, you know, logic is pretty cramped compared to a 32-inch monitor, but it's fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I make it work. It's fine. So for me, the ergonomics of using the 14-inch,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like in cramped spaces where I often am, are better
⏹️ ▶️ Marco overall than the 16-inch for my actual needs.
⏹️ ▶️ John What color did you get?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Silver, of course. Silver, 14-inch with the glowing Apple logo. It's going to be awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, the thing I noticed, again, being in the Apple store and looking at all this stuff, I don't think it had occurred to me, or maybe I had forgotten,
⏹️ ▶️ John that they put black under the keyboard. like, and even if you get the silver one, they have essentially black, whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John anodization or paint.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they've been doing that for a while.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I kind of like the better on his silver.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do too, but they started doing that when they revamped it for the M generation. I…
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I accept that because I recognize that when it's all silver underneath it, like it was with the old, the old
⏹️ ▶️ Marco old MacBook Pros, that does.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air. It does look old in a way. No,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it makes It almost makes me like, cause at least with the black one, it matches cause it's black everywhere. But like the silver one, it's like
⏹️ ▶️ John this big black hole. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I don't, I don't care. I'm not a laptop person. It just, I was just struck by it because especially again at
⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple store where it's sitting right next to the laptops that don't do that.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you know The
⏹️ ▶️ John current, the Neo doesn't do it. The Air doesn't do it. I think those are the only ones. I think all the pros
⏹️ ▶️ John do it. All right. Did we make it? I think so. I think we did.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, we skipped, well, maybe for next week or maybe some other time, we didn't talk about the Creator Studio update,
⏹️ ▶️ John and we may talk about it in a future episode or may not, because there is some stuff there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. Thank you to our sponsor this week, Granola. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash join. One of the many perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus
⏹️ ▶️ Marco topic. This week in Overtime, we're going to be talking about, is Apple re-entering the server market? We're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be talking about that. You can join to listen at ATV.FM slash join. Thank you, everybody. And we'll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco talk to you next week.
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it was accidental. It was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann so that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann A-R-M, E-N-T, Marco Arman, S-I-R-A-C,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann USA Syracuse, it's accidental, accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann They didn't mean to accidental, accidental. Check
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann podcast so long.
Fineliner
⏹️ ▶️ John And Marco, I really wanted to try your app, but apparently you're not making it available in the UK, and I'm very angry about
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Also, I live in Norway, and I really wanted to try your app, but it's not available in
⏹️ ▶️ John Norway, and I don't understand why.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We should have gotten ahead of this. I feel bad. It was a group effort, but we should
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John have gotten it. You ever going to make
⏹️ ▶️ John the app available in Germany, Marco?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad. So what happened was last week's show, I said in the after show, I said like, oh, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hasn't. So we talked about my new app, Fineliner. We're going to talk about it again in a minute. But what I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco said was like, it's still in review. It's not out yet. It'll come out sometime soon. We'll put the link in the show
⏹️ ▶️ Marco notes when it comes out. When you click a link to the App Store to an app that's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not released yet, the error message that shows from Apple is something like this. This app is not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco available in your region or something like that. Yep. Which is true. Yes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's true. What it actually meant is this app is not yet available in any region.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that's not, you know, Apple's message kind of is misleading and unhelpful. So the actual situation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the app was not approved until today.
⏹️ ▶️ John So anyway. And it's not, again, the people who sent this message, it's not your fault. It's Apple's fault for their stupid
⏹️ ▶️ John error message. It should say, hey, this app isn't even on the App Store. It's not available
⏹️ ▶️ John in your country. So incredibly misleading. It is not the fault of listeners. It's entirely the fault of Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. Anyway, that is now behind us. And I'm happy to say Fineliner
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is out. It's on the App Store now. It's free. Go get it. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have had so much fun developing this app. We
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gave a brief overview of it last episode. I will just reiterate it is a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really fun notebook app for iPad, iPhone Duo, and even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit regular iPhones. In the meantime, I actually did add like a text tool to make it more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco useful on regular iPhones than it was last week. I have had so much fun making
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fineliner, and the initial reaction so far from people are so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco strong. This means a lot to me for a lot of reasons. You know, Overcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has been my only major app for such a long time. When I launched
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Unforgetful this summer, that was a very personal app for me because it was about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my struggles with ADHD and trying to help other people like me. And that meant a lot to me as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But Unforgetful is a very small app, and I wouldn't describe it as fun. It's very utilitarian.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it's also, it's a very, very specific app. It's like, if you, if your brain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco works a lot like mine, and if you want your task list to be basically exactly what I want out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of my task list, this app could be for you. But if you, like, it's a,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was a very narrow focus of like very high value to a very small group.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's unforgetful. And also unforgetful is also basically done.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It's a very simple app. Again, by design, I don't want to bloat it up with a bunch of additional features.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That would make it less effective. And so there's not that much more to do besides regular
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maintenance over time, fixing a few bugs here and there as they crop up, you know, adapting to new screen sizes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I adapted it to the duo, you know, that kind of stuff. But I don't think I need to really add a lot of features to Unforgetful.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it's effectively maybe not feature complete technically, but it's close to feature
⏹️ ▶️ Marco complete. And Fineliner, I almost didn't release this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app because I thought, eh, who's going to want it? I wasn't sure what it was going to be.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But then I started working on it inspired by the iPhone Duo. Number one, I realized
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I actually like it a lot on the iPad Mini, as I discussed earlier. And the iPad Mini
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is such the perfect device for Fineliner. But also, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco realize like this, the more I've developed it, I keep having more and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more ideas for fun or interesting or useful features. And when I do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them, I smile. And when I see the results, when I try the results, I have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco had so much fun making this app. And I've had the most ridiculous ideas.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then I try to do them and most of them work. And I'm like, oh my God.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I like the the delight that people are reporting to me that they have trying this app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the first time. I had that delight when I tried it myself for the first time. Sometimes like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don't get that when you made it because like, you know, you've seen how the sausage is made or it's, you know, you're, you're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too close to it to really appreciate it or whatever else. That's not how I feel about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this app. It's so fun and so delightful that I am having that same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco experience as I use it myself. And I know, I don't want to spoil
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much about the app if you haven't tried it yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, no. I think at this point, since John insisted on spoiling it,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John last episode
⏹️ ▶️ John I have not spoiled this. Technically, I have not spoiled a single person. Everyone has said, hey, I stopped when you told me to stop and I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey didn't get spoiled.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Not everyone. There are plenty of people who were like, I couldn't wait. I just rammed through it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John they were fairly warned. If they spoiled themselves, they spoiled themselves. But it's not as I gave them ample
⏹️ ▶️ John warning. Everyone else who didn't want to be spoiled stopped the program, just like I said, and then they waited patiently for it
⏹️ ▶️ John to be released in Brazil.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey case, my point, the reason I bring this up other than to fuss with John, is to say at this point, I think we can assume
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone is spoiled whether or not they've tried
⏹️ ▶️ John I was going to say the no, no sense in spoiling because we already talked about the spoiler part now. We can be spoiler free. So now our roles are reversed.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, all right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I mean, I'm also happy to be spoiler free, but
⏹️ ▶️ John like go check it out. It's free. Like, you know, it's literally a free app. Just go download it. It's not free and then like
⏹️ ▶️ John it makes you pay immediately. Like it's free, free, Free, free, free. There is a thing to pay for in it, but you can use the app for
⏹️ ▶️ John almost all of its functionality entirely for free.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I'll tell you. No ads. It's like a notebook app. So you're drawing and stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And what you pay for is additional pen colors, additional page
⏹️ ▶️ Marco templates, and additional pen widths.
⏹️ ▶️ John additional pages, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Unlimited pages, unlimited notebooks, unlimited text recognition, all that stuff. That's all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unlimited. No ads. No ads, and nothing is subscription-based. It
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is all most of the features are totally free. And then, you know, the handful that I charge for,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they're one-time purchases. They're family shared. They're between 10 and 12 bucks. So it's just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really… What I'm trying to do here is in addition to just having a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco delight in this app. And look, the other two of my apps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are subscription priced. That is what makes sense for them. But no one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is delighted when they see a subscription. What I'm going for here
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is delight. And also functionality, but I'll get to that. But like I'm going for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco number one, delight. When people see this, like, you know, I've been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I've had it out like in testing around a lot of different people and you know, different groups of friends, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, occasionally like strangers or or other developers who like, you know, see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it over my shoulder or something. When people see it, they are delighted by it. And that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco means the world to me. I am so It makes me so happy. So that was what I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going for with this entire app was delight. So I wanted to extend the whole thing from the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco visual appearance to the business model and also to some of the tech details. Fineliner
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a very playful looking app, but it's also serious
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tech under there. It is a very nerdy implementation of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very delightful app. Everything, All of what you're drawing with is all vectors.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everything you can export to SVG and PDF. Even like, you know, if you, if you,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can export, it has like its own native document format to like transfer the documents between different devices if you need to for some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reason. They're just SQLite files. You can look at them. It doesn't matter. Like do whatever you want with them. I don't care.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everything about this app is nerd compatible. There are no analytics.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There's no accounts. There's no logins. The sync is just iCloud sync. So it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just syncs automatically with iCloud. That's all it needs to be. There's no tracking.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like there's no creepiness. And it performs well. It
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has the tech that you need. Like, you know, it handles stuff, you know, sync conflicts and merging
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all that stuff. That's all handled for you. You don't have to deal with that. I've had people fill the entire
⏹️ ▶️ Marco page with strokes. It's kind of like performance test, like the stress test the engine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then I like, you know, take an eraser and take stripes through it or take a segment out and chunk it out and pull it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. I made a whole text engine between last episode and this episode that is in 1.0.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's what made it more useful on the iPhone. The text, it is vector shapes, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it remains editable unless you really mess with it. But you can like drag
⏹️ ▶️ Marco text out of a text block. You can select it and move it out. The rest of the text will reflow around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. And you can drag in near the text a drawing, say a graph or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The text will reflow around that drawing. You can strike out through the text and it will erase that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco word and collapse the rest around it. There's so many features in here that are like technical
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fun. There's a lot of the app that you can, I will say, you can customize.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you can export some of those customizations in ways that you might find useful. You will see later.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you are into note-taking and you want to use it for note-taking, it indexes everything you write.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Of course, it recognizes text. It also recognizes what you draw. If you draw a picture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a hamburger and you search the word hamburger, your picture will show up in the search results.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There's all this tech underneath it because what I also want to do, not only am I delighting people,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, and I hope, and I know, I'm not going to stand back myself. I know, they're telling me. Not only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco am I delighting people with the visual interface, but I also want to delight nerds when they go to do something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nerdy and they find something like that. Like when you go to edit text and it just edits
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or it reflows. If you're typing text onto the,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, with the default text box, if you don't resize it, it aligns with the lines on the page. Of course.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why wouldn't? If you have a line template on the page, why wouldn't your text align? If you select
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wide lines, it aligns with the wide lines. Whatever lines you select, it aligns with those.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you're typing into a text box and you hit the end of a page, it just turns the page and starts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the next page transparently. It just does it. What I'm trying to do here is make something that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco scales with your technical needs while still being this fun,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco delightful app that is just super fun to use and makes people smile. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco playful. It is a little bit retro. And it's super fun on the iPhone Duo,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco although it's even better, I think, on the iPad. Check it out. It has a lot of, there's a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco depth to it that you will eventually maybe find. But check
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it out. I think it's a lot of fun. If you want technology to be fun, again, I think you will enjoy this. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that ultimately, I'm so inspired in part by the iPhone duo,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in large part because by that. As I was saying earlier, even though the duo, you know, I'm not sure if it's going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to ever really be right for me, but it is really fun. And again, with the MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro, they re-added the Apple logo, the glowing Apple logo. That's just fun. That doesn't serve any
⏹️ ▶️ Marco technical purpose. It's just fun. We've been in an era of tech for a while
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that fun has been pretty hard to come by in a lot of what, especially what big tech was doing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I feel like right now we're kind of breaking out of that. Fun does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco typically go in cycles, and we've been in a low fun cycle for a while. And I think now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we're breaking out and we're having fun again. The duo inspired that for me. And I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having so much fun with Fineliner. I think it's the right time for it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And fun, you know, there's a lot of apps that I think if you use it on the duo, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, stuff like the, you know, like the cassette player app and the toaster and the mini
⏹️ ▶️ Marco computers, like these are apps that you'll download and you'll have fun with them for two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seconds. And then you'll be like, all right, well, that's, I'm done. Fineliner is not that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fineliner, you will have that fun, but it's also really useful as a note-taking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and doodling app. And so if what you want is to have fun with notebooks or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just to have a really good reason to have an Apple Pencil, give it a shot. It's so much fun.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it's also a pretty good note-taking app.
⏹️ ▶️ John And for all the fun you're having here, it is, I suppose, fitting that your business model is essentially the current video
⏹️ ▶️ John game business model, which is you sell cosmetics.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, well, honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, So before you get into this, honestly, like part of what I'm going for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here is more of a game feel. Like it's like, what if, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it's, it's very much inspired by the way I,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, kind of stumbled through school was I tried to have fun with everything. Like I was doodling all over my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco notebooks. And by the way, I can't draw. And with Fineliner, that doesn't matter.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You'll see the aesthetic of the app is such that if you can't draw, it's almost better. But also,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn't require you to be good at drawing. It embraces our crappiness in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco drawing. I cannot draw for crap and it's fine. Even the icon,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hired our friends at Parakeet to make an icon and they made a great icon.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I ended up not using it because it was a very polished icon.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I made this crappy stand-in one. I had a page open in Fineliner that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was like brainstorming different icon concepts. And this was the second one I drew.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I drew a bunch of other stuff and I had the icon from Parakeet. And I was showing other people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they were like, oh, I like that one better. And they kept pointing to this one. And I must have shown the app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to 10 different people. Every one of them said they liked this icon the best. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm like, what am I doing fretting over this? Why don't I just ship my draft? Like literally,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did not draw this to be the icon. I drew it as a concept of what someone else with more talent might
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make as an icon. And then I shipped it. That's kind of the ethos of Fineliner.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is very much like, hey, let's just kind of do a fun, imperfect job. It embraces
⏹️ ▶️ Marco imperfection in a way that is very fun. But I feel almost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it is a bit of a game in, you know, certainly in the business model. And you're right, it is basically selling cosmetics.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Although there will be some functionality upgrades coming down the road as well. I'll spoil, I'm adding
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a widgets feature, and that's going to also be a purchase because that's, you know, that's a pretty narrow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco feature, but it'll be fun. But I'm kind of treating it like a game. Like one thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you'll notice in Fineliner is I use as little stock system UI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as possible. The entire UI is custom. Almost everywhere across the app,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you're seeing custom UI. Even like I made my own dialogues and sheets and popovers.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They're all custom because it fits the aesthetic. And when you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see Fineliner running on a device, especially if you see it on an iPhone Duo, it looks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco striking. It looks so cool. Like I love the way it looks on the iPhone Duo
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much. it's It really is like striking. And I love that. like it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It makes me feel, first of all, it makes me feel very proud of my work because I have always said I'm not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really a designer. This makes me feel like I'm a designer. I'm not a very traditional designer, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this app is my design. And I think it has a great design. I think this has an actual chance of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting me an ADA for the first time ever. And i'm and I'll tell you right now, I'm going for it. I am aiming
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that ADA this year. I i really, I don't know if I can get one, but I'm i'm gonna push for that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm going to do whatever I can to get this app to be that caliber to maybe win an ADA
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I think it actually has a chance. And I feel really proud of this design. And I just, that's never,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that's never happened before. I've never been this proud of of a design um So I'm very happy about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. But we will uh we'll see how it goes. i As of this um speaking,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have zero sales data because it's been out for less than a day. And I don't have any analytics on it. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no real-time insight into how many times it's been downloaded, what people are using it on,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many times things have been purchased. I have no idea. But my goal here is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reach. I honestly, if I don't make that much money from this, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a ton of people use it, I consider that a win. That's what I'm going for. I want as many people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as possible to see Fineliner and have fun with it and enjoy it. And if I happen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to also make money from it, great. I don't, look, the reality is I don't think that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco many people are going to be encouraged to buy my in-app purchases, but I just want as many people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as possible to see this app and to use it and for other people to see it running on their phones
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and iPads and for people around them to say, hey, what's that? That's what I want here. So
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, it's a shame because I had a quick advice for you how to make money on cosmetics. But I guess you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make money. So I'll just keep those suggestions to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John myself. Oh, I would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey like to also make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco money, but that's just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John not the primary goal.
⏹️ ▶️ John you're selling cosmetics, you have to have like holiday notebook covers.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Of course I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to, yeah, that's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the idea here. It's just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco making sure that you're picking up the easy stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John There are so many things in your app that lend themselves to seasonal cosmetics. to, you know, just like,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, absolutely.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that is definitely like on the like part of the concept when I designed, when I decided
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do this business model was, yeah, of course I'm going to have like seasonal packs and stuff like that. Like that's,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that's definitely. And there's, look, it's a notebook app. I can also have different packs for things like different,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, different types of templates that you can have, you know, not just like, you know, lines and grids and dots,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann but,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, if certain types of planners and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John like that. like Until those people come after you, if someone's going to find you and sue you, so be careful.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh Thank you. Yeah. So i'll I'll keep an eye on that. But um but yeah, like I think there's a lot of potential
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here for future fun stuff to be added, future purchases of different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ink packs and color schemes and templates and stuff like that. But ultimately, again,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ultimately, I think what I would expect to happen here in the best
⏹️ ▶️ Marco case, the way I see this mostly succeeding is just a huge amount of free users
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then some tiny percentage of them buy the special pens or whatever. And as long as that gives it enough money
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to survive, which you know it's it doesn't take that much because I'm not running servers for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, um it it should be, I think it should be sustainable. So we'll see. Again, i i
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as as of right now, I have no sales data. And even tomorrow, I mean, it's it tomorrow it will have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been out for half a day. So i that's not much data either. So we'll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see how it goes. you know I'll report back over time if it's going you know amazingly or terribly or you know within
⏹️ ▶️ Marco expectations. But in my mind, it's already a success for my goals,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is I wanted to make something really fun that made me smile and is making other people smile. And it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco achieving that in spades.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I'm really, really pleased for you. It seems like the launch has gone really well from all the chatter I've seen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There have been a bunch of people who've said, I waited, like Casey said, and it was worth it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm just saying, John is not always right, folks.
⏹️ ▶️ John spoiler warning. You could hear it if
⏹️ ▶️ John wasn't saying people should be spoiled. I was saying I wanted the people. I didn't want to leave it a secret so the people who wanted to know what it was about
⏹️ ▶️ John could just listen to the show. Just
⏹️ ▶️ John are additive, Casey.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I see how it is. No, I'm very glad that it's gone well and I'm very excited
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for you. And once I can take a breath, because this week has been just,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco this week has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey been relentless, I am really excited to sit down with my iPad Pro and really properly give it a