663: Defending the Honor of The Cheesecake Factory
30 Oct 2025Bold MacBook Pro rumors, Liquid Glass gets frosted, whether Tahoe is a safe upgrade yet, and more experiences with the Vision Pro.
Episode Description:
- Pre-show: Marco’s airplane neighbors
- 🗣️ The ATP Holiday Store is back! Order before 9 November! 🗣️
- Follow-up:
- Vision Pro
- Mac Virtual Display
- On Intel it’s only up to 3K 🤭 (via Thomas Cheng)
- Apple Support
- Tapping-and-holding × allows for hiding other windows (via Nick Anthony)
- Vision Pro vs. ski goggles
- Mac Virtual Display
- Apple 🤝 Vapor Chambers
- Would it come to the MacBook Air (via Andy Lang)
- Coming to the iPad Pro?
- Apple’s MLS deal
- John’s Shortcuts bug
- Calum’s example
- Fleedar’s example
- lukens77 on Reddit (via eurozerozero)
- Is it all Shortcuts-related files?
- Fixing the “iconic plateau” (via Gordon Mcdowell)
- The Cheesecake Factory does, apparently, make everything fresh
- Vision Pro
- Mac Rumors
- 𝓍OS 26 β4 includes Liquid Glass toggle
- iOS/iPadOS:
Settings→Display and Brightness - macOS:
System Settings→Appearance - Example image
- Lock Screen swipe for camera can now be disabled, too
Settings→Camera→Lock Screen Swipe to Open Camera
- iOS/iPadOS:
- Is Tahoe safe yet?
- Post-show: More of John’s impressions of the Vision Pro
- Members-only ATP Overtime: How does one actually make an app? (via not that coach mike)
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- SKIMS: Comfortable underwear, socks, t-shirts, leggings & more.
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Chapters
- In-flight Flighty
- ATP Store
- Vision Pro follow-up
- Sponsor: Paka (code ATP)
- iPad/Mac vapor chambers?
- Sports!
- Sponsor: Claude
- John’s Shortcuts bug
- Balancing the plateau
- Mostly not frozen
- Touch-OLED MBP rumors
- Other Mac rumors
- Sponsor: Skims
- Liquid Glass tweaks
- Is Tahoe safe yet?
- Ending theme
- John on AVP immersive video
In-flight Flighty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s five bucks for a week. It’s like if you buy a bottle of water in the airport, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s like it’s so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know the rest of air travel. It’s nothing. Yeah, so yeah So not only that was this guy using flighty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on by the way on an iPhone air Which is the first time I’ve seen anyone with an iPhone air in the wild. Yeah, I did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah, I thought it might
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be in that I convinced myself. I was wrong We probably won’t put this picture in the show notes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco because I don’t want to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know But suffice to say it looks ever so slightly looks like an air and as it turns out apparently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and you think this guy he was he was a tech enthusiast you talk as he was he was carrying multiple phones
⏹️ ▶️ Marco He had an iPhone air and some kind of Android something. He was kind of alternating between them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and The entire flight he was using a 13-inch OLED iPad Pro Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as like his main entertainment device so like this guy was obviously like a nerd of some kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But nothing compared to the nerd that was sitting behind him who was also using flighty here and there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here I’ll send the second picture to the guy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, look at that. There he is. Look at that. So we’re looking at a picture of a gentleman with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Vision Pro on. It’s hard to tell, you know, you can’t really tell if it’s an M5 Vision Pro or not, but I can tell you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it 100% has the new dual knit, whatever they call it, headband, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Move. And this man looks like he is watching a movie and living his best life.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the first time I’ve seen a Vision Pro being used in the wild outside of like Apple events.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this man was using a Vision Pro for the entire flight. He was, based
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the fact that he was not moving his hands most of the time, I could tell that he was mostly probably just watching a movie
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something the whole time. But I did see him do the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco relatively complicated, like bring up control center and change the volume gesture, where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you turn your hand upside down. I saw him do that once. Now, this is the brand
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new strap. this picture was taken last week one day after the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco strap came out and he had a third-party case that is not sold in Apple stores.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m thinking he probably did not just buy the Vision Pro that day or the day before.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sure, sure. Because no one on their day two of Vision Pro ownership, nobody would know that gesture.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The volume adjustment like you know weird hand turn upside down.
⏹️ ▶️ John knew it on day two of having cases.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you’re an exception to the rule, sir. But I do take your point, but you’re an exception. You know,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey unless it could be, and I hope this doesn’t come across in a bad way because I mean this genuinely, but like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what if this was, he doesn’t strike me from the way he looks again, I’m sorry there’s no picture in the show notes, but it doesn’t strike me
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a person who has saved up for two years to buy a Vision Pro, but like in the occasions when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am really amped about getting something and I save my money for it, you bet that me of all people
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has read the manual front to back inside and out 13 times before
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it arrives. If you bought
⏹️ ▶️ John it and had a flight, you’d definitely be using it on a flight just like you were trying to set up your new phone on the way to the airport.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, so my thing, but because you have a third party case, so my theory is either he’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a John and has read everything and did everything and even maybe pre-ordered the case or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he has either bought both Vision Pros or he at least bought the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new strap on day one and then immediately took a flight with it. But I gotta say, seeing it in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wild, it was a weird look to see on a plane to be honest.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But we did find one person in the wild
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who uses the Vision Pro on an airplane.
ATP Store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we should do a little bit of shilling. Let’s talk about the ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Holiday Store, which is back baby at ATP.fm slash store. John, can you take us through
⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe not every single product, but at least the highlights or the new products for this season, please?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So to start off with the chicken hat 2.0, new version of our chicken hat or the reproduction
⏹️ ▶️ John of my really old hat. It’s a little bit bigger than the old one and logos in the middle, but that’s not the important part. We have some important chicken hat follow
⏹️ ▶️ John up from Ben Kane. episode, I was trying to describe the chicken hat for people who’d
⏹️ ▶️ John never heard of it. I said, well, you know, when you put it on, like, it’s kind of, it looks kind of like a triangle
⏹️ ▶️ John on top of your head. And when you wear it, it’s like vertically, uh, you know, the, it makes like
⏹️ ▶️ John a ridge in your head, kind of like the coma on a rooster. And I had said, you know, uh, you know, a rooster, I know not
⏹️ ▶️ John technically a chicken, but you know what I mean? Like the little flappy thing that’s on top of the head of chicken. Ben Kane writes a
⏹️ ▶️ John rooster is in fact, the chicken male chickens, or roosters, female chickens or hens, that is all. Thank
⏹️ ▶️ John you Ben for the clarification. I feel better about describing it as a comb on a rooster.
⏹️ ▶️ John So anyway, the Chicken Hat 2.0 is there. Limited quantities. We had to guess how much we would sell. We haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ John sold them all yet. Hopefully we will sell them all. But if you want one, you should get one because they might sell out
⏹️ ▶️ John or we might be selling them for the next five years. We’ll see. And speaking of selling out, the mugs have sold out. Thank you everybody.
⏹️ ▶️ John We last episode, last episode we had 10 mugs. When we finished recording in the episode, we had 10 mugs.
⏹️ ▶️ John So nobody in the live chat room bought them, but
⏹️ ▶️ John subsequently people have bought them. The mugs are sold out. Hallelujah. The mugs are sold out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Other new notable products. We’ve got an ATP quarter zip, which is proving popular for people who don’t like their zipper stick all the way down. It’s got an
⏹️ ▶️ John embroidered ATP logo looks nice. We have the ugly ATP Tahoe shirt to
⏹️ ▶️ John memorialize Tahoe, which we may talk about in the topic section. We have the very popular
⏹️ ▶️ John a ATP T568A and T568B Ethernet wiring standard shirts that transform
⏹️ ▶️ John our logo, like to change the six color Apple stripe things and the ATP logo to be the colors of
⏹️ ▶️ John the conductors so the wire jackets in Ethernet connectors according to these two different standards. There’s
⏹️ ▶️ John different wires in different orders. If you know, you know, lots
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey of people ask.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hold on, are you going to talk about quantities? That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John exactly what I was about to do. Yes, so lots of
⏹️ ▶️ John people ask, how’s that going? How’s 568A versus 568B, what is selling more? I
⏹️ ▶️ John can tell you that right now it’s basically two to one, B to A. B is selling twice as much as
⏹️ ▶️ John A right now. Now on that topic, cause I always forget which one of these is which. So I went to the Wikipedia page cause I personally don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John have any experience in working with these wires. I’ve never crimped an ethernet connector, although I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John seen these wires inside them and I’m aware of it conceptually. So I don’t know the cultural, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know the cultural weight of these different standards, but I’m kind of surprised that it’s two to one, B to A. Here’s what
⏹️ ▶️ John Wikipedia has to say on this briefly. Sorry for the tangent.
⏹️ ▶️ John The 568 standard recommends T568A pinout for horizontal cables. This pinout is compatible with one
⏹️ ▶️ John pair and two pair universal service order codes, or USOC, pinouts. The US government requires
⏹️ ▶️ John it, that is, it requires 568A, in federal contracts. The standard also allows only in circumstances
⏹️ ▶️ John the T568B pinout, quote, if necessary to accommodate certain A-pin cabling systems,
⏹️ ▶️ John i.e. when and only when adding to an existing installation that uses T568B wiring pattern.
⏹️ ▶️ John In the 1990s when the original standard was published, the most widely installed wiring pattern
⏹️ ▶️ John in unshielded twisted pair cabling infrastructure was AT&T’s 258A Systemax,
⏹️ ▶️ John hence the inclusion of the same wiring pattern as T568B as a secondary option for use in such installations.
⏹️ ▶️ John Many organizations still use T568B out of inertia. So all
⏹️ ▶️ John you be people out there two to one B. Are you using B out of inertia? Because you’re using an existing
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that used the 18 to 258 a system X standard in the 1990s. Why
⏹️ ▶️ John two to one B it seems like a is the recommendation. I recall from our older conversation that one
⏹️ ▶️ John of these was compatible with like telephone system like analog telephone system wiring
⏹️ ▶️ John and the other one wasn’t. But these two paragraphs from Wikipedia don’t tell me which is which but are you still
⏹️ ▶️ John using T568B out of inertia? out of inertia? Did you buy the B t-shirt out of inertia? Two to
⏹️ ▶️ John one, B to A. Fascinating. I’m assuming this won’t change. I don’t want to change anyone’s mind. Say you pick whatever you
⏹️ ▶️ John want, you know, B or A. It just, lots of people really like B. Some people, we have some follow
⏹️ ▶️ John up maybe next week or something, saying that they weren’t even aware that there were other ways to do it. Like they just
⏹️ ▶️ John did B or just did A and that was just the order they go in. What do you mean there’s another way? So anyway, we’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John got shirts for both and we’ve got our M5 shirt and our Mac Pro Believe and all our other ATP stuff, that’s it for
⏹️ ▶️ John the store. We’ve got, I think, one more week where we’re gonna talk about the store. So don’t dilly
⏹️ ▶️ John dally. If you want something from the store, you should get it now. Oh, and we have ATP membership, gift
⏹️ ▶️ John memberships available as well. You can buy them anytime, so you don’t have to buy them during the store thing. But just FYI,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you sign in to ATP.fm with your membership account, or even if you don’t have a membership, just sign into ATP.fm
⏹️ ▶️ John with the account that you made that you can buy membership or not with, you will get a link on the store page.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can email that link to anybody who you want to buy you an ATP membership for the holidays.
⏹️ ▶️ John Say, hey, I want an ATP membership. Follow this link. It’ll let you buy one. All it does is pre-fill your email address
⏹️ ▶️ John in a form. But, you know, the email address has to match the email address that you sign in to ATP.fm with. So
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, gift memberships as well. So you have to tune in next week for our final pitch
⏹️ ▶️ John for ATP merch. But that’s what we’ve got.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Since John was courteous enough to speed run that pitch, I will just tell you that this is the time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where I remind you that every single sale, someone will tweet at me and say,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh no, I’m that person, I’m that person that forgot to do it. So if you are driving,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use your turn signal like an adult and pull over and go to hp.fm slash store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and make your purchase. If you’re walking meander your way to the side that is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not traveled, typically the right in, in places like America, you know, kind of pull over
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as you’re walking and go to hp.fm slash store and make your purchase. Do not forget,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do not be that person. You will be made fun of mercilessly, not really, but still. I will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey laugh. Don’t be that person. http.fm.
Vision Pro follow-up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Vision Pro. Let’s talk Vision Pro. And it’s hard to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey argue with you or Marco when you talk Vision Pro things, particularly about blurriness. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know that even though I have 20-20 vision in one eye and 20-25, 20-30 in the other eye when I have my contacts in, I’m not going to sit here and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say I have stellar vision. Like even if clinically measured vision is sufficient, I don’t have stellar
⏹️ ▶️ Casey vision. And so it’s hard for me to make a real
⏹️ ▶️ Casey full-throated pitch or defense of the Vision Pro when it comes to blurriness. But we had some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey feedback with regard to John’s lamenting that the Mac virtual display was no good. So, John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can you tell me about this, please?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I had said that basically using Mac virtual display with my 2019 Mac Pro and my Pro Display XDR
⏹️ ▶️ John basically un-retinaed my display. Like the display was the same as it was in physical space, only now when I’m looking at
⏹️ ▶️ John it in virtual space, it looks like it was no longer a retina display. Thomas Cheng was one of many people to write in to point
⏹️ ▶️ John out that Mac virtual display, when used with an Intel Mac, is only up to 3K resolution.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey And I had said,
⏹️ ▶️ John can you believe this works with Intel? Well, apparently it does work with Intel, sort of. It’s limited to 3Ks.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll link to the Apple support document about this. Apple Silicon is up to 5K, and with Sequoia 15.2 or later,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can go up to ultra wide, which is like 10,000 by 2,800 pixels. And by the way, 1.5K would be a true non-retin-ing
⏹️ ▶️ John of a 6K display because, you know, every non-retina pixel becomes four
⏹️ ▶️ John retina pixels. So that’s how that math works. I did try the Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John Once I learned this, I tried it with one of my Apple Silicon Macs. It’s way clearer. It’s clearer
⏹️ ▶️ John to the point where I could feel like now the clarity is being limited by
⏹️ ▶️ John the displays in the Vision Pro. Again, as we talked about when we did the math on this when the product first came out,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not as sharp. There’s not enough pixels inside that display for it to be as sharp as an actual retina display.
⏹️ ▶️ John But boy, is it better going from 3K to 5K. Does make a significant difference. In fact, I was using
⏹️ ▶️ John it with the Studio display connected to a Mac studio, fittingly. And I did the thing where you’re like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I made the virtual display the same resolution as the physical display, and I put it directly
⏹️ ▶️ John on top of the physical display. You know how like it snaps to like, maybe you don’t know. When you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John moving the virtual display around, it will snap to the vertical surface of the
⏹️ ▶️ John display. Like it knows that the display is there. And then you can size it so that you’re looking,
⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, put pass-through on and everything. You’re looking at your room, you’re looking at your display,
⏹️ ▶️ John only what you’re seeing is not the light up pixels that are in your display. I think the display is turned off when this is when Mac virtual
⏹️ ▶️ John display is happening. Instead, what you’re seeing is the virtual display and that’s a great A-B test. And yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John it does look a lot better. It’s not as sharp as the display, but it is way better than 3K.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But just for the, to save us some email, John, you’re totally wrong that 1.5K is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not the non-retina of 6K. 6K is not talking about the area of the screen. It’s talking about how wide it is on the horizontal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dimension. the Pro Display XDR is 6016 pixels across the top.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s, you know, equivalent in size to a non-retina that would be 3008 pixels across
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the top. So 3K really is the non-retina version of 6K.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not 6K is not the total number of pixels?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope, it’s 6016 by something. Well, we should do
⏹️ ▶️ John the math to see if it comes out to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. And 5K was, you know, 5120, I think by something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, now that you say that, you’re exactly right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, but like- I didn’t even think
⏹️ ▶️ John about it. 6000, yeah, I guess so. I mean, the K’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco are- You can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco guess so, but it’s correct.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, yeah. Well, what is
⏹️ ▶️ John 4K though, resolution wise? It’s either 49 to six or 3840,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco depending on, there’s like four different standards.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right, but there’s none of those at 4,000? Yeah, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like weird, there’s like differences in standards between TV and other things, but it’s 3840
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the most common one, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John All right, well, anyway, we should do the multiplication to see what the actual, like, I don’t know, because there’s no K
⏹️ ▶️ John number for that, I guess. There’s no like, uh, for the equivalent of 4k or whatever to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The movie projection industry uses 4096 by 2160, which is DCI 4k in television. 3840 by 2160 or 4k UHD with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a 69 aspect ratio is the dominant standard. Yeah. And for computer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey monitors, 2560 by 1600 was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the old, like, you know, big monitor size and then 5k was doubled the 2560.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then the XDR, it got a little bit bigger, but it was already retina. So there were there kind of was no 1x like 3000.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What is the XDR again? 6016 by something 6016 by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know I at least know that part come on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well looking it up. I’m looking it up.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah, I just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to do the math and then secondly while you’re doing that Again like for people who are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who might be expecting like how this looks in the vision Pro The everything in a vision Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this is this is true of pretty much any kind of VR thing everything rendered in a VR headset is going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco through a lot of different levels of sampling and of like warping of the image
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and de-warping of the image. Between what you’re viewing, like what’s being
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rendered in the world is a polygon that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shows your computer monitor textured onto it that could itself be positioned
⏹️ ▶️ Marco somewhere in your field of view, possibly at an angle and not taking up all the pixels in your field of view,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And then your field of view is a square-ish screen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s being warped to create a dome around you with optics. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so there are more pixels per inch in the middle of the field of view than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there are as you get closer to the edges because of that warping effect. So the number of pixels being
⏹️ ▶️ Marco theoretically rendered of the source monitor in a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco polygon and rendered in a warped view. Like you’re going through a lot of different levels of sampling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and warping here. So it’s never going to be sharp. And you’re gonna end up seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco effectively far fewer pixels than what these numbers actually are.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, it could be sharp if the displays had way more pixels, but as we calculated when the thing came out, even dead
⏹️ ▶️ John center in the displays, the best case scenario, it doesn’t have the number of pixels per degree as the actual screen does
⏹️ ▶️ John at normal viewing distances. And speaking of getting close, I did try that. Like what if I shoved my face real close
⏹️ ▶️ John to the virtual display, which happens to be mapped onto my physical display. I think it makes it disappear when you
⏹️ ▶️ John get too close or something. Like it doesn’t, there’s a point of diminishing returns where it gets angry that you’re coming
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s shy, it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John want you to see its flaws. Yeah, and anyway, like obviously if your nose is touching the monitor, you can’t really use the monitor at that distance.
⏹️ ▶️ John So, yeah, I did, it’s a 6016 by 3384 and that’s about 20 million pixels.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s interesting, the 1.5K thing is interesting because the, uh, the number of points is 3008 by 1692.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s kind of like 3k points, but 6k pixels,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re going to use the 6k terminology. Um, and I don’t know what, like when Apple says it’s limited
⏹️ ▶️ John to 3k, do they mean is literally limited to 3008 by 1692? You know,
⏹️ ▶️ John again, throwing out these, uh, casual K numbers for things that are, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John more exact in number of pixels is difficult to understand, but it seems like 3K, if judging by Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ John pattern of using 6K for its monitors, it seems like 3K may literally be a direct un-retining
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and then Nick wrote to point out, which is something I knew, but didn’t think of in the heat of the moment,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tapping and holding on the X, which if you imagine a Vision Pro window, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you don’t have to have Vision Pro to have seen this, under the Vision Pro window is a bar
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s very similar to the affordance for swiping, you know, like app switching affordance on the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone. And it’s just a horizontal bar. And to the left of that horizontal bar, there’s a circle
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with an X. And Nick writes, tapping and holding the X lets you hide other windows. And the context
⏹️ ▶️ Casey here was John saying, there is no window management in the Vision Pro, which is mostly true. But Nick
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reminded me and reminds us that if you tap and hold the X, it’ll let you hide every other window.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that goes a long way towards solving my problem, which is like, I don’t want all these other windows there, but I also don’t want to close them. but I also
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t want to move them to the sides, just hide others, that really helps.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. All right. So then there’s something in the show notes in our internal show notes, Vision Pro fit in ski
⏹️ ▶️ Casey goggles. Tell me about this, John.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I meant to mention this last time, just talking about how the thing fits on my face and wondering if I
⏹️ ▶️ John had the right size light shield and all that. And I was thinking about ski goggles because Vision Pro looks
⏹️ ▶️ John like ski goggles. And I have experience wearing ski goggles. I’m like, these fit issues. Why did
⏹️ ▶️ John I never have this problem with ski goggles? And the answer is that ski goggles, even though they look very similar and they even have
⏹️ ▶️ John the same kind of like foam around like the part that smushes against your face. The thing with ski goggles is
⏹️ ▶️ John the goggles themselves are made of flexible plastic rubberized plastic
⏹️ ▶️ John and they bend. They bend around your face. So whatever size and shape your face is, they curve
⏹️ ▶️ John in kind of a U shape and the strap pulls them against your face and it bends them and then the foam makes
⏹️ ▶️ John up for the lumps of your face and all the other stuff. Uh, and vision pro, obviously the aluminum part is not bending, at
⏹️ ▶️ John least you hope. Now
⏹️ ▶️ John shield in theory could accommodate this by being more accordion like but
⏹️ ▶️ John the light shield seems pretty rigid like It’s the light shield will deform a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ John and it does have the interchangeable foamy pads on them But the the sort of the gray body of the light shield.
⏹️ ▶️ John I wonder if if they made that more accordion like more
⏹️ ▶️ John squishy so that it would That pressing it against your face would mold
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess part of the problem is that in ski goggles the straps are pulling the plastic thing back
⏹️ ▶️ John on your face But the straps don’t attach to the light shield So there’s nothing pulling the light shield
⏹️ ▶️ John back on your face, right? Like that’s why I was saying I had little gaps by my temples because nothing is pulling that back
⏹️ ▶️ John on my face now Obviously the entire metal frame is pushing the light shield against my face, but you don’t want that to push too
⏹️ ▶️ John hard So anyway, that’s just my thought on the fit of this I think if they make a second version of this they should consider
⏹️ ▶️ John making the light shield more compliant I’m not suggesting they make the body of it bend, although they should make it out of plastic, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I understand making the body of it bend is unfeasible with precisely aligned motorized displays inside there. Like I
⏹️ ▶️ John get that’s not gonna happen, but that’s my thought about fit for another week of wearing this thing
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iPad/Mac vapor chambers?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, Andy Lang writes, now that vapor chamber cooling is a thing in the iPhone, do you think this technology
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would come to the fanless M5 MacBook Air? I have an M3 MacBook Air and sometimes it does get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey quite hot. And then Mark Gurman wrote, when was this? Recently because I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell. But Mark Gurman wrote, a vapor chamber in the iPad Pro is on the roadmap.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Note, I said iPad Pro, not MacBook Air. Apple is now working on the feature with plans to integrate it as soon as the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey next round of updates. The company’s on an 18-month upgrade cycle for the iPad Pro, suggesting that the vapor chamber could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be added around spring of 2027. A vapor chamber would help distinguish the iPad Air and iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro lines. The Air has been drifting further into high-end territory. It got a pro-size 13-inch screen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for 2024 and is set to receive an M4 chip next year. So that doesn’t answer the question about the Air, but it does
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mention the iPad Pro quite obviously.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I think the vapor chamber is particularly useful for
⏹️ ▶️ John devices where you want to move heat and it has to be really thin because if you watch that vapor chamber
⏹️ ▶️ John video we linked ages ago, the key feature of the vapor chamber is really, really
⏹️ ▶️ John thin. So if you’re gonna put this in a phone or in an iPad and the iPad Pro is even thinner than the phone,
⏹️ ▶️ John you want something thin. In the MacBook Air, they could just use a thermal pad or like, you know, maybe there’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John enough room for a heat pipe, but like they have more options in the MacBook Air. That said, no one’s gonna turn
⏹️ ▶️ John their nose up at a vapor chamber and a MacBook Air, and it’s conceivable that the MacBook Air could get thinner
⏹️ ▶️ John over time. So I think it is an appropriate, I think the MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Air could use better heat movement. Let’s put it that way. I mean, we’ve seen that with Max Tech always breaks them
⏹️ ▶️ John open and like adds whatever cooling thing they can think of inside there, new
⏹️ ▶️ John thermal pads or some other thing, and that just makes such a huge difference. And so you’re like, there’s room to make
⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook Air spread its heat better. And if it’s not a vapor chamber, then something
⏹️ ▶️ John would be useful. So I think Andy has a good idea, but it seems like Apple is going to put
⏹️ ▶️ John them into the iPad before they get to the MacBook Air, at least according to Garmer’s rumors so far.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m a little curious, though, like, you know, we’ve we heard in the past, and I believe this has been verified that, like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook Air, because of various like safety requirements, laptops can’t get above
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a certain exterior temperature because it’ll burn people’s laps in certain, you know, certain regulatory requirements
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or maybe just conventions, I don’t know. But basically, the MacBook Air does not conduct
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the heat from the processor directly to the exterior casing. Instead, it kind of just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco heats up the air cavity inside of the MacBook Air. And obviously, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco limiting in certain ways, but it doesn’t bond the heat directly to the exterior casing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder if they would switch to to something like a vapor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chamber, what are they moving the heat to? Would it just be like, you know, some other larger piece
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of metal inside the case?
⏹️ ▶️ John No, they put it to the case, like just like they do on the phone. Like the whole point is if they had bonded the SOC to the
⏹️ ▶️ John case, it would make one little hotspot because it’s harder for the heat to move through the thick aluminum case. The
⏹️ ▶️ John whole point of a vapor chamber is it moves heat real quick from where it’s produced to the outer edges, right? So
⏹️ ▶️ John if you imagined a MacBook Air sized vapor chamber, it would solve the problem of the hot spot in the case
⏹️ ▶️ John by not making the heat have to propagate through the relatively thick aluminum of the case
⏹️ ▶️ John and thus forming a really big hot spot that could burn your leg or whatever. It would immediately spread it
⏹️ ▶️ John over a way bigger area and that would solve the problem. Like I think that’s,
⏹️ ▶️ John sure they would bond it to the case. They might just have the heat pipe moving it more efficiently to areas
⏹️ ▶️ John where there is cooler air because you still do build up heat inside the case where the SOC is. But I
⏹️ ▶️ John think they mostly vent, I have to look at the recent teardowns, but I think they’re mostly venting the
⏹️ ▶️ John hot air from the MacBook Air out from the little, like the… Like the keyboard hinge? The hinge holes?
⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever, like that’s where the fans blow on the ones that have fans. Without the fans, I think it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John venting out there. And back in the day, remember they used to vent a lot through the keyboard? I think they still kind of do,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think. Yeah, I think they do too, but it’s not like they’re waterproof. But yeah, anytime you can spread
⏹️ ▶️ John heat, I think, and especially since the MacBook Air is, granted, it can make a hot spot or whatever, but it’s not,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the amount of heat produced by the MacBook Air is much lower than like, an M4 Max in a MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. So I think any kind of spreader would make it suddenly viable to bond
⏹️ ▶️ John that to the aluminum.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, also keep in mind, like the MacBook Air uses the same chips as the iPad Pro. It’s like, you know, there’s rumor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it coming to the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Kind of, I mean, that would kind of make sense. I mean, yeah, if they can spread it among a big enough area that it wouldn’t create
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough hotspots. I do wonder though, there’s also another component here of cost.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Keep in mind, the MacBook Air sells for less than the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro. Think about that. The MacBook Air, much larger screen,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much more case, much bigger computer keyboard. The amount of parts in a MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air is substantial compared to a phone. The phone has things like a cell modem that the MacBook Air probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco will never have. But-
⏹️ ▶️ John And the phone has way better margins, I believe, than the bottom of the line MacBook Air does.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, so whatever they’re doing in a MacBook Air for the processor, they probably do it to all MacBook Airs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that model line, they might not be able to afford the margins for a large vapor
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s an interesting point.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t know how much those things cost, but looking at them, they look like they’re fairly cheap to manufacture,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? So who knows? It could be that they just don’t, I mean, and I kind of agree with them, like heat
⏹️ ▶️ John generation and thermal throttling, it happens in the MacBook Air, we know it does, but
⏹️ ▶️ John who cares? Like that’s the machine, like the trade-off is you get thermal throttling in exchange for having no fan. And that
⏹️ ▶️ John is a trade-off that a lot of people like, and I think is appropriate for the bottom of the line MacBook. If you have, if you need to do
⏹️ ▶️ John these massive sustained workloads, don’t buy a MacBook Air, but like for almost all the people who buy one, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John fine with it. It’s fine, the thing’s so freaking fast anyway, like, oh no, I thermal throttled during some sustained activity.
⏹️ ▶️ John Who cares? It’s a thousand dollar laptop. It’s amazing, right? So it could be that Apple continues to make the calculation and say,
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, thermal throttles. This is the one that thermal throttles, but the people who buy this, it doesn’t matter to them. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John better to have no fan. I agree with it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I do too. Like, you know, as a frequent MacBook Air owner, I’ve never cared
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about thermal throttling. I’ve never even noticed it in my, including, you know, doing things on it, like software development.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve just never noticed it. You know, because I think you might notice it if you’re doing like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco video encoding every single day.
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of batch job with a progress bar where you time and you’re like, boy, this used to take 20 minutes, but now it’s taking 37, you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, yeah, but yeah, unless you’re spending, unless you’re really stressing it for like more than a couple of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco minutes straight regularly, I don’t think you would even notice.
Sports!
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Uh, let’s talk sports. Marco’s favorite thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, we were talking a lot about Apple’s MLS deal and F1 deals in overtime last week.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And somehow we all lost sight of the fact that the Apple MLS deal is actually worldwide, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the American major league soccer, um, uh, thing. Uh, I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think of the word I’m looking for. Thank you. Gosh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco it’s right there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s right there in L it’s the L in major league soccer. I literally just said it. That’s okay. Anyways,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reading from Apple’s original newsroom post in June of 2022, the Apple TV app will be the exclusive destination to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch every single live MLS match from 2023 to 2032. Jake
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Lee also pointed out Apple put up a billboard in Korea for it too. Sung-Hwang
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Min, one of the biggest players in Korea, recently moved to the Los Angeles Football Club and Apple was marketing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that hard here in Korea. And we’ll put a link in the show notes to that billboard.
⏹️ ▶️ John as everyone will point out, having the worldwide rights versus the US rights to MLS are basically
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey because nobody
⏹️ ▶️ John cares about MLS. that’s what they all tell us.
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John’s Shortcuts bug
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, your shortcuts bug, if you’d like, I can start reading this and you can interject.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you would like to cover it, that’s fine. But we had some feedback with regard to this, and this was discussed in last week’s After Show. How
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would you like to proceed?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So the upshot is I am not the only person who has experienced this bug.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Is that an upshot?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. That’s, you can read the what’s here, but
⏹️ ▶️ John this is just supporting evidence to say it’s not just me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So we’ll start with Callum who writes, I’ve been experiencing the same shortcuts bug for about the past year. I have a shortcut
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that converts PDF a PDF into images and then rearranges the images to create a new PDF.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Every month I run it, rename the new PDF and finder and upload it to Google drive. Sometime later it just disappears and I have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to re download it from Google drive. I thought I was going mad. Then fleet are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey rights. I was using shortcuts to apply color correction to several hundred photos pixelmator and ran into your bug with the output
⏹️ ▶️ Casey photos being completely deleted. I eventually gave up finding a solution. This was an early 2023, so it’s depressing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to know that it hasn’t been fixed. Uh, Lucan 77 on Reddit back in 2024,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which was pointed out to us via Euro zero zero, uh, writes, I have a few shortcuts that create files,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but these files seem to keep disappearing. I’ve not yet been able to identify any kind of pattern to this, such as whether
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it happens after X X occurrences or after Y minutes when they disappear. It seems
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all files created by any of the shortcuts all disappear. I’ve not yet managed to ascertain if this happens
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the same time. Then Gleeful chips in, disabling the overwrite flag
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a workaround that worked for me. So there’s an image which we put in the show notes. The shortcut action is save
⏹️ ▶️ Casey resized image to get parent directory. And some of the options are ask where to save subpath
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and overwrite file, or overwrite if file exists. And disabling
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that apparently is the trick.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So I tried that because this is a screenshot from my actual shortcut. I did have override a file
⏹️ ▶️ John exists checked because that’s what I wanted but in practice it’s usually not overriding a file unchecking that
⏹️ ▶️ John box Makes it so the files do not disappear. In fact, that is the one last experiment before
⏹️ ▶️ John the show started. Let me check Yep, that does it So that tells me a lot that’s how many this is a shortcuts
⏹️ ▶️ John bug Shortcut says the one doing it because when I uncheck that checkbox and shortcuts would makes no
⏹️ ▶️ John functional difference if I’m generating the files And there’s no conflicting file like functionally it shouldn’t make a difference but
⏹️ ▶️ John it is clearly shortcuts deletions. Lots of people are suggesting that I use fsusage or lsof or some other thing
⏹️ ▶️ John to Find out which process is deleting the files. It’s some shortcuts related thing
⏹️ ▶️ John like it surely is because Every other way I do this including by the way, I made a
⏹️ ▶️ John shortcut that just runs a shell script Those files don’t get deleted either it is specifically this
⏹️ ▶️ John save Files in directory shortcut option with the overwrite file if it exists
⏹️ ▶️ John option makes the files get written there Stay there for some period of time then later it deletes
⏹️ ▶️ John them It’s the only thing that you know And again when if you just have it run a shell script and shell script runs like the SIPs
⏹️ ▶️ John Command line tool that does image processing stuff that’s built into this concluded with Mac OS that works
⏹️ ▶️ John fine So I would say this mystery is essentially solved. This is a shortcuts bug Apparently it’s been there since 2023
⏹️ ▶️ John lots of other people who have experienced it The workaround is uncheck the override if file exists checkbox in
⏹️ ▶️ John the save file things But boy, what a bug. And the fact that multiple people have seen it and it still has them to fix
⏹️ ▶️ John is kind of depressing.
Balancing the plateau
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s talk about the iconic plateau. Gordon McDowell writes, the iPhone only needs
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a protrusion sticking out as far as the camera on the opposite side to eliminate wobble. It could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be another bloody camera. It could be one of the existing cameras moved there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this was about me saying like, people were saying they should make the plateau the same like thickness as the
⏹️ ▶️ John camera thing, and that would be too much. And I’m like, well, you don’t have to make the whole plateau thick, just put the camera on the other side. Lots of other phones
⏹️ ▶️ John do this. They have lines of cameras that aren’t in kind of like a three dot cluster
⏹️ ▶️ John on one side, like because Apple evolved from their notion that the cameras were in the corner and
⏹️ ▶️ John they slowly expanded out from the corner until they were more than half the width of the phone, but they were still clustered as if they were in
⏹️ ▶️ John the corner, but they weren’t and that led to the wobble. So yeah, Apple could have done kind of a
⏹️ ▶️ John bug eye thing or a two in one thing or spread the three out. There’s lots of things they could have done to make their phones
⏹️ ▶️ John not wobble, but apparently that is not an important design consideration at least thus far on their phone. And it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, They don’t wanna look like they’re imitating the other phones that do that. They directly copied
⏹️ ▶️ John the Google Pixels like thing on the back with the iPhone Air. So I don’t know what they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John afraid of. I still think they need to reconsider the camera arrangement. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, hell, they don’t need to make a camera. They can just have put a nub over there. Like I said, just put in some
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like little nub or kickstand or ridge or who knows. Like I guess people
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t care about their phones well then because I guess they’re holding them most of the time instead of putting them on the table. Oh, well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well and also like most phone cases will just put a huge lip around the camera bump and level
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it out Anyway, so like most people use cases on their phones and most phone cases remove this problem from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco being a problem anymore
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think most phone cases do remove it. Look at the bull strap case That doesn’t remove the problem like the
⏹️ ▶️ John the bump is so big now That it doesn’t it’s impossible to level out
⏹️ ▶️ John with any reasonable case even the bull strap kid isn’t doesn’t do it and they cover the other part of the the non-camera
⏹️ ▶️ John part of the plateau on the Pro phones.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know, the cheap clear case I got and the Peak Design case both level it out. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John the Bullstrap leather ones don’t. Anyway, Apple could solve this problem, but so far they haven’t.
Mostly not frozen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So, uh, from the ATP insider episode on the restaurant season
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, we fairly briefly made mention of the cheesecake factory. And I think one of us, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had said, Oh, it was Marco. See,
⏹️ ▶️ John telling Marco about how fantastically huge the cheesecake factory menu is because for some
⏹️ ▶️ John miraculous reason, Marco has never been to the cheesecake factory. We recommend that he goes just to see the menu
⏹️ ▶️ John because it is so huge now that but he’s a restaurant owner, he can appreciate what it must take to have a menu
⏹️ ▶️ John this big. And Marco said, well, surely a lot of this stuff is frozen. And I agreed, it’s like, it’s gotta be frozen. Like, there’s no way you can
⏹️ ▶️ John have all this stuff available and not have stuff, you know, frozen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, so we found, I don’t know who pointed this out, I’m sorry, but somebody
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pointed to the Daily Meal website, which reads, despite the fact that a long menu is usually red flagged, the food at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a restaurant is pre-made and reheated, the opposite is the case of the Cheesecake Factory. All 250
⏹️ ▶️ Casey menu items or more are made from scratch every day with fresh ingredients. But the same can’t be said for the cheesecakes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All the cheesecakes are delivered to the restaurant frozen and then defrosted before serving to customers.
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s no name associated with this because a lot of people sent this in. There’s a lot of Cheesecake Factory fans
⏹️ ▶️ John out there who wanted to defend the honor of the Cheesecake Factory and say, no, it’s not frozen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And how excellent is it that a place called the Cheesecake Factory has all fresh food except
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the cheesecake which is made at a factory?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so if you go through the history of the thing, started with somebody who was making cheesecakes in their basement and then she was making the cheesecakes
⏹️ ▶️ John for the restaurant until it became like untenable for her to do it. But anyway, frozen or not,
⏹️ ▶️ John the cheesecake at the Cheesecake Factory is good. If you like cheesecake, they make good cheesecake. So I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to besmirch the frozen cheesecake. I don’t care if it’s frozen. It tastes pretty good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will still insist that cheesecake is pie.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well I’d have to consult the cube rule and I don’t have it in front of me and I’m not I’m not going to do that right this second.
Touch-OLED MBP rumors
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s talk topics. And we have a smorgasbord of Mac rumors
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to talk about, starting with the M6 or OLED MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we can read from Bloomberg. Let’s see, the company is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey readying a revamped MacBook Pro with a touch display for late 2026 or early 2027.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The new laptops will feature OLED displays and will retain a full trackpad and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey keyboard. The new machine’s code name K114K116 will also have thinner and lighter frames and run the M6 line
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of chips. For the revamped MacBook Pro, Apple’s retiring the notch. In its place, the company will adopt a so-called
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hole punch design. This will be similar in concept to the dynamic island on the phone. The company has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey also developed a reinforced hinge and screen hardware to prevent the display from bouncing back or moving when touched,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a common drawback of the existing touch PCs. Because of the price of your components, the new 14 and 16-inch MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros are likely to cost a few hundred dollars more than the current versions. As of now, Apple isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey actively developing additional touchscreen Macs. Instead, it’s waiting to see the market’s reaction to the touch version of the MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Earlier, Mark Gurman had written in a different article, Apple’s investigating the idea of bringing cellular connectivity to the Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, hell yeah. Cellular connections are unlikely to come to the Mac before 2026 when Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey planning a second generation modem that includes support for faster speeds.
⏹️ ▶️ John So this is a lot of existing OLED MacBook Pro rumors. Like again, the MacBook Pro, OLED MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John was originally rumored for this year. Then they said it actually could be pushed next year. So the rumors continue to say next year is the OLED
⏹️ ▶️ John year. When we were talking about the M5 MacBook Pro, just the plain M5 one, I was saying, this
⏹️ ▶️ John generation of M5 MacBook Pros will probably be your last chance to get this design
⏹️ ▶️ John because the new design is coming. And it looks like the new design is going to be different in many,
⏹️ ▶️ John many ways. Being thinner, maybe, you know, do you like the current trade-off in terms
⏹️ ▶️ John of size, weight, and battery life? Will the thinner ones be better because of better battery chemistry? We don’t know, but like, if you
⏹️ ▶️ John want a known quantity, The known quantity of the size, weight, and battery life of these ones, it
⏹️ ▶️ John is here for you. Touchscreen, this is the first time this has been rumored like in a substantial
⏹️ ▶️ John from like German who usually doesn’t just make stuff up, right? Lots of people have been talking about touch Macs for ages and ages.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is a German rumor and that’s corroborated by at least one other person. So it seems like they’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John do this. They’re finally gonna bring touchscreen to a Mac. That involves a new hinge to make it so the display
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t wobble as much. There’s also the cell modem rumors, which again, the C2 in 2026, 2027, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John when they’re supposed to be coming out. And of course the OLED screen, which is these are the OLED MacBook Pros.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s gonna be a big change. This is the biggest change since the Apple, since these new, it’s not the Apple Silicon ones,
⏹️ ▶️ John because the first Apple Silicon ones look like the Intel ones. But since whatever we’re calling this new design, the kind of boxy
⏹️ ▶️ John ones that we’ve had for the, well, I guess M2 through M5, this will be the end of the
⏹️ ▶️ John line, seems like for that design. In the beginning of an all new design with a lot of different potential trade-offs.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not saying you should buy these because the new ones are gonna be bad, maybe the new ones are gonna be great and you should wait.
⏹️ ▶️ John All I’m saying is it’s going to be a change. And I find this fascinating because we’ve been
⏹️ ▶️ John waiting for touch Macs for ages, not because we’re dying for them, we’re dying for a solid photo Mac, but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for touch Macs
⏹️ ▶️ John for like, you know, people want it, why shouldn’t you do it? It shouldn’t be that hard. There was
⏹️ ▶️ John another rumor I didn’t put in here of like the exact technology they’re using to put the touch sensitive thing in the OLED display.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s some new tech that embeds the touch layer inside the OLED so it’s not as thick and
⏹️ ▶️ John yada yada, whatever. Um, I don’t, there’s no rumors about software related
⏹️ ▶️ John to the touch thing, but, and I don’t, I’m not predicting they should do this. I’m not recommending it, but I think
⏹️ ▶️ John if they simply added touch to Mac iOS as it exists today, it’d be fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s not ideal. It’s you, you’re going to come with the track pad. You should use the track pad.
⏹️ ▶️ John But how many times have you seen somebody who’s accustomed to touch using a laptop and they
⏹️ ▶️ John just want to scroll a webpage and they reach out and do it or dialogue comes up and it’s just easier for them to just stab the okay
⏹️ ▶️ John button with their finger instead of hit the thing. It’s a thing that people do and that it’s perfectly possible to do with MacOS.
⏹️ ▶️ John MacOS is not made for your finger. It’s made for the pointer, but there are things that your finger can do on
⏹️ ▶️ John existing MacOS. So I don’t think Apple needs to say, Oh, everything has to become Fisher price huge and
⏹️ ▶️ John everything has to be usable by finger. I don’t think they need to do that. I don’t think they should do that because that’s called
⏹️ ▶️ John an iPad, right? Leave the Mac the way it is. But I think a touchscreen
⏹️ ▶️ John would be a useful addition for the people who want fingerprints all over their laptop screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and the reality is, this is one of those areas that no matter what we as traditional
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac and laptop nerds think is right, I don’t want a touchscreen on my MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro however, how many people among us can say we’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco never unthinkingly just touched our laptop screen thinking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would scroll. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John madness. I would never do that. But I will
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco say that I have
⏹️ ▶️ John literally pinched to zoom paper, print paper, more
⏹️ ▶️ John than once. More than once, multiple, many times over my life, I have literally put two fingers down on like
⏹️ ▶️ John a magazine page and pinched to make the text bigger. So I’m not above doing that. I
⏹️ ▶️ John just say I haven’t done it with the laptop screen. But yeah, stab that okay button with your finger.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even if all it is is scrolling and zooming, that would go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a long way, because the reality is, again, no matter what we think as nerds, this is what people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are used to with every other device. Every Windows PC of any note
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has had a touch screen, or at least had a touch screen option, for many years now.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they added it because the PC ecosystem is so diverse, someone’s gonna try everything. And once somebody tried it,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re like, people, but first of all, people didn’t object to it. And second of all, once it
⏹️ ▶️ John becomes a thing that you have, and your competitor has, but you don’t, you’re like, well, maybe we should add that too. And
⏹️ ▶️ John people just got used to it being there. Now, was Windows redesigned to be a touch interface?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, Windows is design optimized for nothing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right, but like, the PC manufacturers didn’t have to like, it was like, well, we can’t put
⏹️ ▶️ John touch on our laptops until Windows is radically redesigned so that everything is accessible with your fingertip. Nope, they
⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t do that. They just made, they just put touchscreens on it and people started using them. And it’s like, the market
⏹️ ▶️ John has decided that this is a desirable enough feature to justify what I assume is the fairly minimal cost
⏹️ ▶️ John for the touch layer to be added to the screens of laptops.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and the reality is like, most people out there in the world, especially as you go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco younger or more novice, most people assume that every screen is a touch screen and they will try to touch it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if it doesn’t work like a touch screen, they’re gonna either think it’s broken or they’re gonna think it’s not as good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as things that are touch screens. So you have huge market pressure to do it. And it’s one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those cases where we, I think, have talked a lot about like, you know, purity and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like what John was just saying, like, waiting until we can redesign everything to do it right, which would be a terrible idea for macOS,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but, you know, like, waiting until the perfection is possible. And this is a thing that Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and us, but, you know, Apple often gets stuck in this kind of thinking of,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, they can’t just pinch their nose and do something imperfect. They wait until they can do something perfectly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in the meantime, they don’t address it at at all or have something horribly broken, you know, like the,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the perfect is the enemy of the good. And sometimes they compromise on their perfect, pure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco vision. For instance, slowly turning the iPad Pro into a laptop,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is what they have done. Like, the iPad, it used, the iPad originally was like, you pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much only were intended to use it in portrait orientation unless you were watching some video, then you could rotate it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And remember the first keyboard for the iPad that came out with the iPad One? That was portrait, it was a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey portrait like.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then everyone was like, hey, you know this thing actually can work if you just turn it to its side
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and put a bigger keyboard on the bottom. And then eventually Apple made the iPad Pro and made their own keyboard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that holds the side. But still the camera was on the wrong side and the logo was on the wrong side and everything.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They were like, they were insisting this is, this is an everything device, but mainly a portrait device. And it’s definitely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a laptop. And then slowly what they’ve done with the iPad is turn it into a laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They gave you landscape uses, they gave you landscape cases with keyboards,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they added a trackpad and a pointer. Now they have resizable windows and like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Finder kinda sorta and they have the Dock kinda sorta. They’ve turned it into a laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All of this was in complete violation of their pure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea, the pure design, the pure ethos, but it’s what customers wanted and it made the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco product generally better for everyone because either you didn’t have to use that stuff and you could
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep using it the way you always were, or you could use it the way you actually wanted to, like more of a laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it turns out the iPad is a pretty good laptop for a lot of people. And so I think,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinking about touch on the Mac, we should think about it the same way. The Mac is not gonna be a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great touchscreen device, probably ever, just the same way that Windows PCs aren’t great touchscreen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices. But a lot of people want that and are assuming that it will be there and are disappointed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when it’s not there, or they have bad experiences because it’s not there and they try it and it fails.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so even though we don’t want fingerprints all over our screens, similarly to how many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad users don’t want or use any of the multitasking features and never connect the keyboard to their iPads,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there are so many people who want their MacBook Pros or their MacBooks to have touch screens
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and assume they will and have bad experiences because they don’t, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it should be there. It has reached the point of popularity and user pressure now that they should have touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screens. I mean, it reached that point a while ago. Yes. And the rest of us who don’t want fingerprints
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all over our screens don’t have to use it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and I think when Apple executives has always talked about this, they’ve even back when
⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Jobs was still alive, I think he said similar things like, oh, your arm gets tired, having your arm up, touching a Mac, touch Macs are
⏹️ ▶️ John no good. But obviously with laptops, especially if they’re literally using them on your lap, the screen isn’t out in
⏹️ ▶️ John front of your eye line, like an ergonomically correct desktop display. It’s down. where an iPad screen
⏹️ ▶️ John would be if the iPad was in laptop floppy laptop mode or if the iPad is just up on a stand. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John lower, it’s tilted, and it is more viable. And I’m assuming that’s what they’ll say. It’s like, we’ve always
⏹️ ▶️ John said your arms will get tired, but with a laptop, you don’t have to hold your arm up. It’s down there. And I don’t know how
⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll spin it. But it’s like, all I’m saying is, I think that this doesn’t mean that like
⏹️ ▶️ John the new Apple display, which they’ll come out with someday, I swear, will be a touchscreen. Because look in the PC world,
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s not a huge number of desktop displays that are touch displays, because it is
⏹️ ▶️ John tiring to have your finger up like that. Now, I’m sure there are some, and especially if you have like a drafting table
⏹️ ▶️ John style touch PC, that’s a different ball of wax, but Apple has never
⏹️ ▶️ John really made one of those. They still could, but they haven’t. Although if they made one of those, it should probably run iPadOS or something.
⏹️ ▶️ John But like if they do, what I’m saying is if they do this with laptops, I would imagine as the article says,
⏹️ ▶️ John although God knows how he could possibly know this, like, oh, they’re going to, they’re going to do it on the laptops and then just
⏹️ ▶️ John wait and see. And if people like it, maybe they’ll expand it out or whatever. But yeah, laptops first makes perfect
⏹️ ▶️ John sense for putting the touch on things. And again, it will be fun to see how they market this.
Other Mac rumors
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, a few other quick grab bag items. The other new Macs in development include updated MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Airs with the M5 chip. These devices are slated for release in the spring. Apple’s also working on a refreshed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac Studio, Mac mini, and a pair of external Mac monitors dubbed J427 and 527. Sure they are.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John You’ll notice that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have not yet mentioned the Mac Pro. Apple is exploring another major Mac change as well, a shift from the Touch ID
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fingerprint scanner to Face ID, but that remains years away.
⏹️ ▶️ John Years away, oh my God, Put Face ID on Macs. You know where you could experiment with that first? Put it on the laptops. It’s killing
⏹️ ▶️ John me that they don’t put like… Yep. And the thing is, laptops is the place where they have an excuse, like, oh, the display
⏹️ ▶️ John is too thin. They’re gonna come out with new displays, these long rumored like Pro Display XDR successor and
⏹️ ▶️ John presumably a Studio Display successor with a 19 Pro and whatever. There’s so much room in those displays
⏹️ ▶️ John for a Face ID sensor. They’re so freaking thick. Put Face ID on the Mac. Stop, what are you waiting
⏹️ ▶️ John for? It’s killing me. I mean, I know you guys are waiting for cellular, but the Face ID on the Mac is just, It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John brutal. I don’t know what they’re waiting for. Like, just gather up those more. Only put it on your own displays.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s another reason for people to buy your displays. You don’t even have to like have it be third-party display. Only put it on your first party displays. Anyway, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John Originally when I put this in here, it was like, this German article was like, other Macs in development, MacBook Air, Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John Studio, Mac Mini, just not even a mention of the Mac Pro from German. But then
⏹️ ▶️ John Brendan Shanks to the rescue.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Brendan Shanks writes, new in Xcode 26.1 beta three. CP. This
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a, I believe a constant CPU family underscore arm underscore Hydra HIDRA,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is listed as H one seven G.
⏹️ ▶️ John We discussed that, uh, which is apparently an island. Where’s the island? I forget. Is it in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey life? I remember the discussion. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John remember. Scandinavia or something. Somewhere up there. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not the multi-headed beast of
⏹️ ▶️ John Greek myth was HYDRA. Anyway. This was supposedly the
⏹️ ▶️ John code name for a Apple Silicon chip that has not been released that is potentially a
⏹️ ▶️ John large beefy chip that would be suitable for a Mac Pro. Even though German’s not even mentioning
⏹️ ▶️ John that. It’s like, oh, here’s some, the Mac rumors for the next year. They’re gonna update these Macs and those Macs and those, not
⏹️ ▶️ John even a mention of the Mac Pro, not even like no news in the Mac Pro or Mac Pro, like just nothing, just doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John even get mentioned like it doesn’t exist. Maybe the product is canceled. But then in the new beta of Xcode, A constant
⏹️ ▶️ John sneaks through that mentions the rumored code name of a chip that as far as we know
⏹️ ▶️ John has not shipped, is not one of the M5 chips slated for the MacBook Pros.
⏹️ ▶️ John It could be a Mac Pro chip, or it could just be the beefy chip that they ship in the next Mac Studio,
⏹️ ▶️ John and the Mac Pro really is dead. Who knows what will happen, but here I am out here
⏹️ ▶️ John trying to sell those Mac Pro Believe shirts, wearing mine in my heart every day.
Sponsor: Skims
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this episode by Skims. Now
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Liquid Glass tweaks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, let’s talk some new developments or newish developments in the OS’s 26
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the beta 4. In beta 4 for iOS 26,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can now tone down Liquid Glass. And I saw a lot of news articles about this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they all frustrated me that they didn’t have side-by-side comparisons, or at least not when I first started
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reading about it. but our dear friend Stephen Hackett did Yeoman’s work to put these
⏹️ ▶️ Casey together, and so we’ll put a link to Stephen’s excellent post in the show notes. You go into, for iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey OS and iOS, you go into Settings, and then Display and Brightness. For macOS, you go into System Settings, Appearance,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and there you’ll find a new toggle that lets you swap between two looks, Clear and Tinted. Clear is the look of liquid glass
⏹️ ▶️ Casey since iOS 26 launched, while Tinted adds opacity and contrast. So,
⏹️ ▶️ John I know that the names they put in the UI aren’t necessarily connected to the names of the APIs behind
⏹️ ▶️ John the scenes. But it was, I initially saw this and I was wondering if this is the same
⏹️ ▶️ John as the API, at least on macOS, when you make a glass material thing, you have a choice between clear
⏹️ ▶️ John and tinted. Like those are like the constant numbers or whatever, dot clear or dot tinted. And when you do
⏹️ ▶️ John glass that’s tinted, you can also specify the tint color. So like the, if you
⏹️ ▶️ John have Switch Glass, my little app switcher thing, which looks like the dock, it has like a background or whatever, and it has materials
⏹️ ▶️ John you can pick for the background, I don’t use all the deprecated constants that Apple doesn’t want me to use for the different backgrounds. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John in Tahoe, you can pick glass and you can pick clear glass, or you can pick tinted glass. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John when you pick tinted glass, you can pick the color. So I wonder if the tinted look is literally,
⏹️ ▶️ John they just change all the things that are, when they see the dot clear constant, they just use the dot tinted one and they pick
⏹️ ▶️ John a fixed tint color. It’s hard to say, because just because the name matches doesn’t mean it’s the same thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, it seems like it might not even be new code and it is just simply
⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, when they do.clear, ignore that and really just use.tinted with white as the background with some opacity
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and then below these selections, there’s little teeny tiny gray text, because of course
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s gray, that reads, choose your preferred look for liquid glass. Clear is more transparent, revealing the content beneath. Tinted
⏹️ ▶️ Casey increases opacity and adds more contrast. And speaking of Yeoman’s work, John has done
⏹️ ▶️ Casey us a service and we’ll put a link in the show notes to some examples of tinted versus untinted.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, do you want to talk these through?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so Stephen Hackett’s got a lot of before and afters. Lots of other people on the web since then have
⏹️ ▶️ John had a bunch of before and afters. And I picked some from, this is actually running the beta and I
⏹️ ▶️ John took some screenshots of it. And by the way, the RC is out there, Release Candidate is out now, so this is a little bit old news, but I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s changed. But side by side, depending on the context, I don’t see
⏹️ ▶️ John that much of a difference between the regular and the new setting, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, between clear and tinted. you can see the background through both. It’s not like
⏹️ ▶️ John reduced transparency where it makes it totally opaque. Like I was just in a messages thread. That’s what you’ll see as like part
⏹️ ▶️ John of messages and it shows like a photo, it’s a white background
⏹️ ▶️ John with non-white photos. And the non-white photos clearly show through the tinted
⏹️ ▶️ John version. They show through more in the clear one, but there’s still like,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re gonna make this setting, it seems so subtle. it seems like it’s a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ John more opaque. Is that better? Just like if people don’t want to see stuff that is behind
⏹️ ▶️ John their controls, don’t make them go all the way to reduce transparency. And if this really is tinted,
⏹️ ▶️ John as I said, like the actual tinted control, let people pick the opacity and the color.
⏹️ ▶️ John Put it like, you know, or put an opacity slider underneath it because it would be, you know, when you do tinted, you can
⏹️ ▶️ John pick the color and you can put an alpha channel on that cover. Like, I don’t know. I like, it’s clear that
⏹️ ▶️ John they decided to do this because people thought it was too transparent. But boy, you
⏹️ ▶️ John give a setting, like I’m gonna be hesitant to even tell this to like my kids because they complain
⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit about liquid glass stuff. They’re gonna be like, what difference does that make? It’s the same. I’m like, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s actually a little bit more opaque. So if you could see them side by side, you’d notice that. I guess if you see them side by
⏹️ ▶️ John side, you would notice, but I don’t know. Like it seems half-hearted to me,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can tell you, so as soon as the setting was released in the bid, as I switched to it for my iPhone, And then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at some point later, I didn’t realize that there was also the option on the Mac. And so then like on my laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that runs Tahoe, at some point, like a few days after using it on the phone full-time,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I saw a notification show up in Tahoe with the ridiculous overly glassy look. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was immediately, I was like, ugh, like it jumped out at me so much.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, here’s the problem. On beta four, changing that setting doesn’t affect notifications.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I tried when I was trying to do the screenshots.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco On Tahoe, you mean, because on iOS it does.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I know. But when I was trying to do the screenshots, I’m like, I know, I’ll do notifications because those are so clear, they annoy me. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I turned the setting on, got a notification, it didn’t change. It looks exactly the same. Now maybe that was a beta 4 bug, and maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John in the RC it does change, but that’s what I’m saying about it being half-hearted. On macOS, it doesn’t even look like
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s applying the setting to lots of places where you wish it would be applied, like notifications.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, this is beta 4 knowledge. I haven’t installed the RCs yet, but it seems a little half-hearted
⏹️ ▶️ John to me. And hopefully, macOS will eventually apply it everywhere, but yeah, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks a little bit better in iOS. But yeah, reduced transparency really does reduce transparency, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it radically changes how things look, and I think it makes things look even uglier. So that setting is always there
⏹️ ▶️ John for you in accessibility, but this is pointedly not in accessibility. It’s in, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John settings appearance or settings display and brightness, which is a weird place for it to be. I guess there’s no appearance equivalent
⏹️ ▶️ John in iOS settings. Anyway, when 26.1 comes out, this will be a setting and
⏹️ ▶️ John if liquid glass is annoying you, you can give it a try.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can say also, again, like on the phone, having used this now for, what, it’s almost been like two weeks,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can say it’s great. It has been going great and it is generally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better. Liquid glass is not perfect with it, but I can say like after switching to this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then seeing, you know, the glassy version on macOS, it instantly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made the regular version of Liquid Glass look garish
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and tacky and already old. Like Liquid Glass had been out for two seconds
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it already, once you see something a little bit more toned down, it makes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the shipping version look really old.
⏹️ ▶️ John It always looked tacky to me.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And I think you can check this
⏹️ ▶️ John think even on iOS, you know, like the play pause controls that hover over playing video, like in a pop-up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that directly get in the way of your content that it’s trying to spotlight? Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I don’t think those on are the setting either. I think they look exactly the same with the setting on or off. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John those were, so that’s the clear style. That’s clear, I know. That’s what I’m saying. But like, I just, it
⏹️ ▶️ John seems weird to me. Like those are the most egregious. Those are so, because the content behind them is always, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s guaranteed to be something, you know, uncontrolled because it’s video. And those are the glassiest
⏹️ ▶️ John of the glassiest things for controls that I don’t need to be glassy. Like I think they’re too big and obtrusive as it
⏹️ ▶️ John is. I don’t want them to have specular highlights and be warping and refracting things and all that crap. So I wish the setting
⏹️ ▶️ John applied to them, even if it only applied a little bit. It’s so weird to me that you would put the setting in and say,
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, but the clearest controls, those are accepted from this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe, but to be fair, like that was, those kind of controls, the ones like the playback over the video,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those were always a more clear version than the default. That’s not the default
⏹️ ▶️ John look. Those are actual dot clear. Yeah, those are like, that’s what I’m saying, the constant, it’s confusing when they’re using the same languages
⏹️ ▶️ John as the constants, because the settings here are clear and tinted, but there’s clear and tinted glass in the OS, and this
⏹️ ▶️ John clear tinted setting only seems to apply to the not clear API, you
⏹️ ▶️ John constants. It’s confusing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I think, and you know, kind of broader picture, I think the fact that they had to add this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so soon shows that they’re getting a lot of pushback, and people are having a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems with liquid glass. And ultimately, there’s a lot about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the liquid glass design language that I don’t think is good. There
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are some things that I think are nice. It’s gonna need a lot of tweaks. It’s gonna need a lot of adjustments.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think generally speaking, we will get to a place with it with a bit more iteration
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where it is actually pretty nice. But it’s gonna need a lot, it’s gonna need work and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time. And the fact that they’re already fixing it, number one, you can say like, wow, lol,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what a failure that they had to fix it so soon, which is valid, but at least they are fixing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. At least we are going in a direction where they’re toning this down so quickly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because maybe they got enough pushback that it needs, it needs the work that it needs. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s promising, at least to me. And I think we will look back, you know, similarly to how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when iOS 7 was first unveiled at its WBDC, the fonts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were these like super thin, like ultra light Helvetica, And over the course of the beta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that summer, they iterated the design of iOS 7 to be less egregiously thin so that you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could actually read text anywhere in the OS. That’s happening to Liquid Glass.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It just didn’t finish during the beta. But I think we’re seeing that process now in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco point releases that, oh, the most egregious versions of this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are being tweaked now. Yes, it should have happened in July. It didn’t, but at least it’s happening now instead
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of having to wait till next summer.
⏹️ ▶️ John It kind of happened in the beta. Do you remember there was, I forget which beta it was, maybe a beta three or something?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Where it was
⏹️ ▶️ John super frosty. Yeah. Right? And I think, someone should dig up these screenshots, but I think it was
⏹️ ▶️ John the beta three version of this showed less stuff through controls
⏹️ ▶️ John than this new version does with the tinted setting turned on. So it’s not like they, because
⏹️ ▶️ John they turned it on and then there was some outcry from developers, we talked about it on the show, like, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John you said it was called with a liquid glass, but now I can barely see through the controls. It doesn’t look like glass anymore. And they, and they,
⏹️ ▶️ John so like during the beta, it went really, really opaque. And then it went back, it went back to be more transparent.
⏹️ ▶️ John And the more transparent ones, the one they released. Maybe not as transparent as the very first beta, but certainly more, it was not
⏹️ ▶️ John the, the most opaque of the betas, right? Then after release, now they’re adding
⏹️ ▶️ John a setting to make it slightly more opaque. I haven’t seen a lot of outcry about
⏹️ ▶️ John this, but we’re all kind of sitting here waiting for when Apple starts forcing this update on people, which I’m assuming will happen 26.1.
⏹️ ▶️ John Is that when they usually do it? Usually. Like, and what we mean by that is like, if you,
⏹️ ▶️ John lots of people were surprised about it. They’re always surprised about this every year. Like the new OS comes out and they’re like, I went to system settings on
⏹️ ▶️ John my phone to get the new OS. And can you believe it was trying to tell me like there’s a new version of iOS 18?
⏹️ ▶️ John You have to scroll down and it’s like, oh, and by the way, there’s also a thing called 26. Do you want that one?
⏹️ ▶️ John But the top one on the phone was 18. They don’t sort of like shove 26
⏹️ ▶️ John in your face, at least on the phone, until the 0.1 release. and then people’s phones
⏹️ ▶️ John are gonna like, they’re gonna, it’s gonna prompt them, it’s gonna be in system settings, it’s gonna be a badge, it’s gonna auto update
⏹️ ▶️ John overnight, like all sorts of like, when they really push this out to the general public and it’s a good move
⏹️ ▶️ John because 26.0 was a mess and you don’t wanna push that out to everybody, 26.1 will be better. I will note that on the Mac, the day Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John OS 26 came out, system settings got a badge and it’s still
⏹️ ▶️ John there and I can’t make it go away. Because like, you know, 26 is out, I’m like,
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I don’t have one. I do. It’s been there since the day Mac OS 26 was launched. Software
⏹️ ▶️ John update available, badge with a one in it, cannot make it go away no matter what I do, because there is one. If I go
⏹️ ▶️ John to system settings, it says, hey, Tahoe’s available, do you want it? Not only that, but every 15 update,
⏹️ ▶️ John like 15.7.1, if you weren’t careful, like if you have auto updates off and you go to manually
⏹️ ▶️ John install it, if you weren’t careful and you tried to install Sequoia, it would install 26 if you didn’t go in and like uncheck the 26 checkbox.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s been pushing 26 so hard on the Mac. like Apple, you don’t want to do this. I mean, it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John really matter because there’s so few Mac users and we’re technically more technically savvy than the average
⏹️ ▶️ John phone user, I suppose, and blah, blah, blah. But but yeah, on the phone, they hold back. So I’m still kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of waiting for 26 to get pushed to, quote unquote, everyone to
⏹️ ▶️ John finally decide what the public reaction to it. But I feel like the public reaction to 26
⏹️ ▶️ John as it exists right now has been people aren’t super big fans of it. but I haven’t seen
⏹️ ▶️ John any, you know, complaining on the level of like the new photos app. And we’ll see, I don’t remember, did the
⏹️ ▶️ John new photos app complaining only start after they pushed 18.1 to everybody? Or did it happen with 18.0? Yes. It was
⏹️ ▶️ John both. Well, we’ll see when they, when they push it to everybody.
⏹️ ▶️ John But right now, even my kids who were like, who refused to use a Mac that had Tahoe on it, they’ve got
⏹️ ▶️ John it on their new phones and they grumbled a little bit, but otherwise they’re like, yeah, it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think we’re going to see like, What has happened throughout the course of computer interface history,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whenever anyone has used transparency because it looks cool, what happens over time?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They make it less transparent because transparent UIs don’t work very well. And that’s happening
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here. We are going to see this progression. It will end up somewhere that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is reasonably fine. And the translucency is not not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco liquid glass’s only problem. But this is probably its biggest. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re gonna end up somewhere that’s better.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, unfortunately for liquid glass, it’s in the name, the glass part of it.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you mentioned like, oh, we’ll eventually find a happy medium. Like the correct move is not to show
⏹️ ▶️ John things through controls, especially controls that have text on them, because it doesn’t serve a functional purpose. It’s only
⏹️ ▶️ John there for aesthetics and it only hurts your legibility. So like, why are you doing this yourself? Why are you choosing this? Like, well, don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John you understand it’s glass? Okay, if that’s your controlling metaphor and your aesthetic and your marketing,
⏹️ ▶️ John then you’re kind of stuck with showing stuff through because glass doesn’t show anything through, it’s like opaque glass, like
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess it could be shiny on the edges, but people think of glass as being able to see something through it. That’s just a
⏹️ ▶️ John fundamentally wrongheaded idea. Nothing behind that button needs to contribute to the
⏹️ ▶️ John content of that button. To the extent that you show it through the button, it can only make the button
⏹️ ▶️ John more misleading and obscure. So the correct amount of transparency in a button, if there is content
⏹️ ▶️ John behind it is zero. And they’re like, but what if we, how close can we get? We don’t want to
⏹️ ▶️ John do zero. Cause it doesn’t look, can we, and yeah, they’ll probably find something that is like makes people, it’s like, all
⏹️ ▶️ John right, it’s fine. But it’s a fundamentally wrong headed idea. I also think the floating controls off the edge is a fundamentally wrong
⏹️ ▶️ John headed idea in terms of efficiency and space usage, especially on the phone, but that is a separate issue. But
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, that’s kind of the problem with this. Whereas the fonts like, well, we can just make the font sticker done and done. But this is like our,
⏹️ ▶️ John one of our basic ideas. Like I said, it’s the floating the controls of the edge, showing through the content and whatever third one that
⏹️ ▶️ John I can never remember.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The touch targets are too small. Everything has no contrast around it. I mean, there’s multiple issues.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, there’s some pre-existing problems, but it’s kind of hard to have a
⏹️ ▶️ John thing styled on glass where you don’t have it show stuff to. But don’t put content behind buttons. And if
⏹️ ▶️ John you do put it through behind buttons, don’t make the button show the content through. Don’t make the text field show the content
⏹️ ▶️ John through. Well, I’m still seeing screenshots granted from the nerds that are in my circles on like Mastodon
⏹️ ▶️ John of like, look at this scrolling text region that is fading up behind some header
⏹️ ▶️ John text, making the header text completely illegible because right behind it offset by one pixel is other text.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s just, it looks like an error. And like, this is the UI that you want. Like that whole fade
⏹️ ▶️ John thing where text scrolls behind text with a gradient fade, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a bad idea. You can never make that work. You have to stop doing that and use the hard edge scrolling thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John like an iOS 18 and all the ones before. There’s no amount of fading and adjusting
⏹️ ▶️ John of contrast or whatever that will ever make that a good idea. It is just a bad idea. And
⏹️ ▶️ John so we just have to live with it until somebody wakes up and says, you know that thing where we put text behind text? Let’s not do that anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then one more quick item. There’s now an option to disable the lock screen swipe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get to the camera. This is in settings camera, lock screen swipe to open camera. I didn’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this was the thing that people hated, but I guess this is a thing that people hate it.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental input. It’s not that people hate it. If you use it, it’s great to have it, but if you never use it intentionally,
⏹️ ▶️ John but only ever accidentally use it, that’s the thing. What they need is some kind of,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how to implement this, but what they need is butt dial protection, because my parents butt dial
⏹️ ▶️ John me all the time, and there is no explanation. Like, the best I can come up with is they don’t,
⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t sleep their phone before they put it in their pocket.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, that’s a common thing. I do that sometimes.
⏹️ ▶️ John Or they do sleep their phone, like they press the sleep wake button, but their phone is like bogged
⏹️ ▶️ John down or slow or something, and it doesn’t like, doesn’t go to sleep until they’ve begun putting in their pocket.
⏹️ ▶️ John But the bottom line is somehow their hands are touching the screen and activating stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s causing them to call me, and I get a call from inside of their pocket, and I can hear them talking and I say,
⏹️ ▶️ John dad, butt dialed me. He usually can’t hear me, I just hang out. But like, and I’ve,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I’ve been with him when this has happened, and like, what did you just do? Tell me, and he can’t explain it, but there is some kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of accidental input user interface thing going on here. Again, my leading theory is they just are
⏹️ ▶️ John simply not sleeping the phone, but like, so all right, so say they don’t sleep the phone. How do you accidentally,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m probably in their favorites or maybe in their recents, like, but how do you accidentally initiate a call
⏹️ ▶️ John to me by accidentally rubbing your fingers? Slide to go to the camera, I can
⏹️ ▶️ John see happening because that’s just a pretty simple move, you just slide sideways, but anyway, lots of accidental input happening.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m glad to see this setting. I’m sure it will still be on by default, but if you find yourself accidentally going to the
⏹️ ▶️ John camera when you don’t want to and you never use the shortcut, Now you can turn it off.
Is Tahoe safe yet?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, I have a question for you. Is Tahoe safe to run yet? Because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am not currently running Tahoe, and I’ve seen a medium amount of chatter,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey particularly around one particular bug that we’ll discuss in a minute. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve been reluctant to upgrade, which is not unusual these days,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I used to be like a day one person for everything. So what’s the deal? Are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you two running Tahoe? Do you recommend it? in me holding off, where do we go from here? Let me start
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am running it on my small travel laptop. I am not running it on my main, my desktop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop. And so far, like what I, as I’m using it on my little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop, and then I go back and forth between my desktop and my laptop, I’m not motivated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to upgrade my desktop to Tahoe. So like when I’m not using Tahoe, I don’t miss
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. There’s no feature I miss. There’s nothing about it that’s motivating me that I should
⏹️ ▶️ Marco update my desktop, except that eventually, Sequoia will stop getting updates
⏹️ ▶️ Marco meaningfully from Apple. But right now, there is no motivating reason for me to do it. Now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also, when I am on Tahoe on my laptop, I don’t care. Besides
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my stupid glassy notifications, it’s fine. Everything looks different, everything’s lower contrast.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think Liquid Glass holds up well at all on the Mac, especially the treatment of toolbars
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and sidebars, I think it looks ridiculous. The corners of everything are really massive,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the rounded corners, massive corners. So there’s a lot of little noises with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, but whenever I’m on either computer, I’m never wishing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it was the OS of the other one. And I’m never looking at it and saying, wow, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco love this OS. It’s fine. Everything looks different. it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a different skin on the OS. Things work fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t have many major problems with either one, to be honest. But again, it’s not motivating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a change in either direction. That being said, something’s up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with my tethering setup on my phone. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know, again, it’s 26.1 on both, and I have the 26.1 beta on the Mac, and I have the 26.1 beta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the phone. It’s an iPhone 17 Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cellular and tethering have been really unreliable to the point where I’m frequently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having to reboot the iPhone to get cellular data to keep working.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, I don’t know if that’s, and that’s oftentimes happening when I’m tethering with a laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I don’t know if tethering is somehow, like I don’t know if it’s like a Tahoe bug that’s breaking the phone’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cell connection, or if the phone has a broken tethering implementation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is also all to say that that was all only with the betas of 26.1. The RC
⏹️ ▶️ Marco came out, I think, what, today or yesterday? Um, and I’ve, I’ve only just installed the RC like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tonight. So I don’t know if it’s fixed in the RC, but I honestly, it’s been so bad in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco betas. I don’t know how it would be. I don’t know how it would be fixed. Uh, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something is really broken with cellular data or tethering or both
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with 26.1 on an iPhone 17 pro. And I don’t know if it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco related to the way Tahoe is using it from the Mac or not, I don’t know. But tethering and data are super broken for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me. It could even be like my phone could be bad. It’s that bad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the point where I cannot get through a train ride without having to reboot my phone for tethering connectivity.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway all that being said, Tahoe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in general again, it’s been fine. The design is stupid on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac, but it’s been fine. If you need to upgrade for some motivating reason,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go for it. If you don’t have such a motivating reason, I don’t see any reason why you would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. What about you, John?
⏹️ ▶️ John Is Tahoe safe? 26.0? No, not safe. I rarely say that about the.0 releases.
⏹️ ▶️ John I usually update to them as soon as possible, although that’s been moderated in my podcast in years
⏹️ ▶️ John by whether or not the Roga Miba like audio hijack stuff is updated or whatever. But 26.0
⏹️ ▶️ John just I’ve read about too many problems with that. Now 26.1 is going to be out soon. So maybe this will
⏹️ ▶️ John change 26.1 of running the betas. But 26.0 just has so many problems
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve heard about not just like little things like well, I don’t use tethering, but like fundamental sort of OS wide
⏹️ ▶️ John slowdowns that people don’t have good explanations for. And we’re going to get into one possible popular culprit here
⏹️ ▶️ John in a second. But I’m not saying don’t upgrade because it’s ugly and it is, uh, or because of the UI, just
⏹️ ▶️ John because it seems buggier than usual. And there’s one particular, there’s one known particular
⏹️ ▶️ John bug that may affect a lot of people and there’s no real workaround for it. Dan Morin has been chasing this for awhile
⏹️ ▶️ John because he thought it was the bug we’re going to talk about, but he’s like, now I’m pretty sure it’s not that bug and it’s still happening to me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Lots of people complaining about slow downs and I know it’s like, Oh, look, Google Glass is doing more effects and whatever, but
⏹️ ▶️ John those effects are very well accelerated and maybe it’ll use like someone tried to do a
⏹️ ▶️ John battery test recently. Like I’m going to use like liquid glass versus like, uh, I think with the setting
⏹️ ▶️ John on and off to see if like one uses more power than the other, you could probably isolate that if you took great pains
⏹️ ▶️ John to do so, but it’s dominated by other things. So I don’t believe the hype that like. Liquid
⏹️ ▶️ John glass is so much more processor intensive that it’s making things slow down and causing your battery to
⏹️ ▶️ John drain. I do believe there are bugs that are causing things to slow down and make your battery drain.
⏹️ ▶️ John And those are the things to avoid. So I would say if you’re not updated to Tahoe and there’s no thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that you really, really want out of, you know, if there is something that you really want out of like you would like the new shortcuts features or you want like
⏹️ ▶️ John to be able to put a dark mode, light mode toggle in your menu bar using the new control center thing, which is the
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that I do because it’s convenient. Uh, still wait till 26.1 do not upgrade to 26.0 26.0 is bad.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, and the main culprit is Casey, please tell us about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, so there’s an Electron bug, because of course there is. The bug
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is being tracked on the Electron GitHub. It is number 48311. Avar
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ayer writes, I believe I found the root cause and it’s not Apple’s fault. It turns out Electron
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is overriding a private AppKit API underscore corner mask to apply custom corner
⏹️ ▶️ Casey masks to vibrant views. This method is called by Windows Server to calculate the shadow of the window.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m speculating that Apple uses some sort of memoization by reference. And this method breaks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the memoization and forces Windows Server to repeatedly recalculate and repaint the shadow. What’s particularly funny
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that even a simple override that does nothing but call super, which is to say call its like parent, so to speak,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey still presents the issue. 9to5Mac writes, recent electron versions no longer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use utilized as private API. Developers have begun updating their electron version to mitigate the issue.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s a app, detector app by Thomas Kafka that Craig Hockenberry
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pointed us to and posted about, that will look at your system and tell you which of the apps that you have on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your system are offending. And there’s also a website where you can go to that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is all about shaming Electron, particularly for this specific bug. And you can see the status
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of a whole bunch of popular apps. And so we’ll put all those links in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ John So Electron is the web rendering engine used by lots of popular Mac apps, because people
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t want to make native Mac apps. They just want to wrap a web app in some Chrome. The Slack app that
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re all running right now probably does that and many, many others. They use the Electron engine. Electron
⏹️ ▶️ John engine has this bug. The Electron folks fixed the bug, but requires every single app that
⏹️ ▶️ John is built on Electron to update their version of the Electron engine that they’re using and release a new version
⏹️ ▶️ John of their app that uses the new updated Electron version. And people are slow in doing that. I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ John sure these apps even always use the latest version of the Electron engine because, you know, that could affect things in the app
⏹️ ▶️ John and they might be a few versions behind or whatever. So this website, the shame electron thing,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s basically say here are the popular apps that use electron and here are the ones that have been updated and here are the
⏹️ ▶️ John ones that haven’t. From what I’ve heard from the people who suffer from this bug, if you’re using an electron app
⏹️ ▶️ John every day and it hasn’t been updated with this bug fix, again, do not upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ John to Tahoe because it’s going to cause slowdowns, like system wide slowdowns. I guess if you could
⏹️ ▶️ John not run Slack and not run like, But if you have to run those apps all day, don’t upgrade to Tahoe. Now again,
⏹️ ▶️ John is this technically Tahoe’s fault? No, like it was an electron using a private API, I bought a lot, but practically speaking, it means
⏹️ ▶️ John that you’re perfectly fine in Sequoia, and then you upgrade to Tahoe and you run five electron apps all day, all of a sudden
⏹️ ▶️ John your whole system bogs down. And again, Dan Morin has that problem, and he’s like, I think every single one of my apps has
⏹️ ▶️ John been updated to the new version of Electron, and still I’m getting these horrendous slowdowns that I can’t explain.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s 26.0. So just say no to 26.0. 26.1, maybe okay.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, we’ll see what Marco finds out about the tethering stuff. But like Tahoe is definitely a year where
⏹️ ▶️ John you might wanna wait a little bit before upgrading, especially if they’re like Marco said, if there’s no thing that you really,
⏹️ ▶️ John really want, like if there’s some feature that you gotta have or some new setting or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John if there’s nothing like that, just wait. Like I’m, I think Rogo Mavis stuff is all
⏹️ ▶️ John updated. So technically I could update. Obviously I’m running Tahoe. I reboot this into Tahoe all the time to do dev
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff and test things. My laptop is running Tahoe over here, but like
⏹️ ▶️ John Marco, I feel no compulsion to upgrade. And unlike Marco, I go back and
⏹️ ▶️ John forth with my laptops over there, my desktops over here. I go back and forth between them all the time.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I just like how Sequoia looks better. So I definitely
⏹️ ▶️ John have an attraction to not looking at that hideous UI and looking
⏹️ ▶️ John at it. And so I’m enjoying this one while I can. Even simple things like the menu bar, like they made the menu bar transparent
⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s that option that says like, oh, make the, kind of like the clear and tinted option. The option on
⏹️ ▶️ John Tahoe that says, don’t make the menu bar not be there. Instead of it being
⏹️ ▶️ John completely, you know, no background whatsoever, it gives it a background that’s like the
⏹️ ▶️ John barest of tint. Like it’s like a really, like a 50% transparent black, like tint
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. It’s like, people who want that option, just make it opaque. Just like, if they’re clicking that option, they probably just want it opaque.
⏹️ ▶️ John And by the way, I have to use that option because if you don’t use that option, it puts like a one and a half
⏹️ ▶️ John inch gradient at the top of your screen that casts a gradient shadow
⏹️ ▶️ John onto the icons that are on your desktop, which I think that’s a bug. Like it shouldn’t do that.
⏹️ ▶️ John It does the gradient to try to make the text more visible, like whatever. And it depends on what your desktop background is
⏹️ ▶️ John because if your desktop background is very dark, it will do light. And if it’s very light, it will do dark and yada, yada.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right now in Sequoia, with my background that I’m using, my menu bar is
⏹️ ▶️ John white-ish. But with the same background on Tahoe, my menu bar is black-ish, and I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John like that because then all my menu titles are in white. And anyway, I don’t like how Tahoe looks, so I don’t know when I’m gonna upgrade,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I’m not being compelled to do so, especially since I can reboot into it whenever I want, and I have a laptop
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s running it all the time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so it sounds like when 26.1 lands, presumably soon, then I’m probably okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m just real nervous I’m a very, very heavy spaces user. And I believe Dan Morin had said
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, you know, he is as well. And that’s apparently been a little janky. So
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yeah, like that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the slowdowns, like switching spaces is like slow and stuttery and people like, is it because liquid glass is like, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John just a bug that some kind of, and is it electron related? Doesn’t seem like it, but maybe,
⏹️ ▶️ John but like, I would say like Casey, what is making you want to update?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nothing in particular. I mean, honestly, I’m sure that well, right. I’m sure there’s something there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I am interested in that I remember that I was like, ooh, during June, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever it is, I have forgotten about it since then. So granted, yes, haha, my memory. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, I mean, I don’t feel like there’s anything that I’ve been like, yes, yes, yes, yes, it’s finally time. You know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I mean? And so maybe I’ll just hang on for another month or two and see what happens.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, there are cool features like the new control center thing that gives you more flexible, you know, customizable control
⏹️ ▶️ John center and put different menu bar icons in the menu bar. Although there’s also bugs related to that. Someone posted a thing recently
⏹️ ▶️ John on their MacBook Pro with some other laptop with a notch. The right half of the menu bar was
⏹️ ▶️ John gone. Like it just wasn’t there anymore. The whole thing with like the date and everything like that. I occasionally
⏹️ ▶️ John get like a weird thing where when I log in for the first time, the date and time
⏹️ ▶️ John is pushed off the right edge of the screen and the only way to get it back is to log out and back in. That’s in Sequoia. That bug has been around for ages.
⏹️ ▶️ John But their whole right side of the menu bar was just gone. There was nothing there, which is weird.
⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, like I just there are cool features in there. Like there’s the there’s the new phone app.
⏹️ ▶️ John The short people who like shortcuts is lots of cool automations there. Although, as you can imagine, with my
⏹️ ▶️ John recent bug experience, I’m a little bit wary of shortcuts these days. But if you don’t upgrade to them, you don’t miss those features.
⏹️ ▶️ John So, you know, just stick with what you got unless you have.
⏹️ ▶️ John If that’s just some reason you want to upgrade, maybe like 26.1 It’s surely going to be
⏹️ ▶️ John better than 26.0. I can tell you from an app developer’s perspective, they’ve fixed tons of bugs. But have
⏹️ ▶️ John they fixed all the bugs in their OS? And has every Electron app updated? Maybe wait till 26.5. Cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thank you to our sponsors this week. Claude, Skims, and Pekka. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the perks of membership
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is ATP overtime, our weekly bonus topic. Every week there is usually between 15
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and 30 minutes more of the show that is in ATP overtime for members only.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This week in overtime we’re going to be talking about making an app, an explanation of how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an app is created for non-developers to kind of help understand the process. You can join once again
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to listen atp.fm slash join. Thanks everybody and we’ll talk to you next week.
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was accidental, oh
⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental And you can find the show notes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at atp.fm And if you’re into mastodon,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s K-C-L-I-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A
⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse, it’s accidental They
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean to, accidental Tech Podcasts,
John on AVP immersive video
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, John, so you’ve had some more time with, uh, I’m going to call it your vision pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least for now. Um, and I was wondering, you know, have you done any other things
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with it? You said in the main show that you, you know, tried another attempt at Mac virtual display and that went
⏹️ ▶️ Casey better. Have you done any of the other stuff? And like, one of the things I was most curious about, and maybe this will be a short conversation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you haven’t done it yet, but when we talked a few months ago, there was that Bono documentary
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one man show thing, not documentary, like a one man show that came out and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they had the same source material, but they treated it two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very different ways. And there’s a non-immersive version where it’s just him on stage by himself, chatting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and talking to you slash at you. But the immersive version is way, way,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way different with lots of animations and stuff. Have you had the time to at least watch a portion of the immersion,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey immersive version of the Bono thing?
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s when I talked about my experiences with the M2 with Casey’s M2 Vision Pro, one of the things I left out was
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of the stuff that I had already done with it, just because it’s kind of some of the same things that you guys had already
⏹️ ▶️ John done. And one of those was watching a lot of the content. And so, yes, I did watch the immersive version of
⏹️ ▶️ John the Bono thing, not the whole thing, but I scrubbed around and watched because I’d seen the whole thing before and I didn’t want to sit
⏹️ ▶️ John through the whole thing again. And it is very different. Like they really do spend
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of energy embellishing with graphics stuff. I’m not sure if it adds much to
⏹️ ▶️ John the experience. Like it’s certainly there’s lots of more visual flair and lots of interest and makes it makes it so there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John more things for you to look at than just like the guy’s face talking or whatever. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure how successful it is artistically. It’s an interesting experiment, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like the like the boring like non vision pro, you can just watch it on your television version
⏹️ ▶️ John gets you most of that experience and maybe less distracting. So I wasn’t that big of a fan of that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I did watch not all the other content. In fact, one of the things that I realized I forgot because Steve Trout and Sebast got
⏹️ ▶️ John a vision pro now and he’s going through some stuff and I forgot to try like the the Disney immersive environments.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like there’s one for Alien Earth, which I just talked about in a recent rectifs and there’s like Star Wars ones. And like
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a there’s some Marvel stuff. And
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I have to try that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s Avengers. Avengers Campus is one of them. For
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t do that. That Marvel thing that you watched. I’m going to watch that eventually. But I did watch like a lot of the
⏹️ ▶️ John that with that one line of immersive content. I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey showed it to my wife
⏹️ ▶️ John with the demos and she’s like, where’s all the immersive content? I’m like, you see that thing? And she’s like, that’s it? I’m like, that’s it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I watched a bunch of that stuff. Surprisingly, one of the ones I found most affecting was the
⏹️ ▶️ John Highline one, where the woman is walking
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey on a tightrope
⏹️ ▶️ John above things. And I’m not particularly scared of heights, but I feel like that was an effective use of a thing that is,
⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t get as big an effect on a flat screen as you do in a 3D appearance.
⏹️ ▶️ John I thought that was a cool one.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did you do the parkour one in Paris? Because that was similar. I agree with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you that the tightrope walking was more affecting, but that also had a similar vibe to it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I think the thing about it, I haven’t done the Paris one yet. That’s on my list, but I think part of the tightrope
⏹️ ▶️ John walking one is like, I’m also judging, I’m not judging these just based on how well it takes advantage of vision problems.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m judging them the same way you, not technology-wise, just how good a story does it tell? These are all very
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of short things. They’re not, you know, they’re, they’re more like little tone poems or whatever. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John how effectively do they convey a story and emotion? I felt like the Highline one did a good job of that,
⏹️ ▶️ John even though it is very similar structure to the other ones, just narrated by a person talking about that. I just, I thought it was well-written
⏹️ ▶️ John and affecting and the, and the visuals matched the other stuff. And, uh, by the same token,
⏹️ ▶️ John I also found the one with sharks, even though it’s just like a bunch of sharks swim around you, that is very compelling content
⏹️ ▶️ John in 3D. I didn’t think the story of that one was as good,
⏹️ ▶️ John but that’s a good demo. And surprisingly, one
⏹️ ▶️ John of the other ones that I found was good. Again, this is like has even less to do with Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John and more to do with just the content was the MotoGP one, the motorcycle ride.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I was just about to ask you.
⏹️ ▶️ John The French motorcycle riding guy. Now, here’s the thing. For reasons that make sense to me, they did
⏹️ ▶️ John not have Vision Pro cameras on the motorcycles. Like they don’t put them on the F1 cars and the motorcycles even smaller. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no room to put a gigantic, like they’re in a competitive race. Like here, put this giant thing on the front of your bike. No
⏹️ ▶️ John thanks. So if you think you’re gonna be like, now I’m gonna be like, it’s like I’m riding the motorcycle.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, that’s not what it is. This is actual competitive, as they say in the thing, it’s like F1, but for motorcycles,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? They are professional motorcycle racers. They’re trying to win a race. They don’t care that Apple is there.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it was just shot like a documentary where like, okay, the cameras were on the sidelines watching the motorcycles go by.
⏹️ ▶️ John and the cameras were on the guy when he was in, you know, getting ready and his trailer and talking, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John to his coaches and everything like that. And the reason I found compelling was, one, I thought it was like a good story
⏹️ ▶️ John of, you know, this underdog athlete, it’s a French rider. A French person has not
⏹️ ▶️ John won this French Grand Prix in like 70 years and how is, you know, is he gonna do it? And
⏹️ ▶️ John he keeps falling and just having problems. And, you know, like it’s underdog type sports story.
⏹️ ▶️ John One of the things I found most interesting about it was to get an up close look at those motorcycles. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John that interests me. Like, you’re, because you’re like, the cameras are like inches from these motorcycles. You can, and
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess as part of the 3D is like, it feels like it’s really there cause you’ve got the 3D camera, but you’re just looking at a more, but these motorcycles
⏹️ ▶️ John are amazing looking. I’m more interested in these than I am in F1 cars at this point, maybe because I know more about F1 cars than
⏹️ ▶️ John I do about the motorcycles, but like just how they’re put together and how they differ from like
⏹️ ▶️ John a road bike, like these racing bicycles and like the equipment that he puts on and like, just, I
⏹️ ▶️ John found that fascinating and super interesting. And I think I would
⏹️ ▶️ John have found that just as fascinating outside the Vision Pro, just a flat 2D thing. Because again, it wasn’t really
⏹️ ▶️ John taking much advantage of the immersive thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe when you’re up close to the motorcycle, but that was interesting. I did watch Submerged. I didn’t think
⏹️ ▶️ John it was very good. Interesting, why not? Again, nothing to do with the Vision Pro-ness, just to do with
⏹️ ▶️ John the short film. It’s very challenging to make a compelling short film, And I think that one was like,
⏹️ ▶️ John eh, like just, I don’t, I don’t know if it was scripted well and the number of events took place and the characterization
⏹️ ▶️ John and just, it didn’t all work that well. If you, if you have a fear of being submerged in water, maybe you’ll, you’ll find it more affecting,
⏹️ ▶️ John but blah. Uh, the Metallica one, I watched all of that one. I am not a Metallica fan, but I feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like I know what it’s like to be on a Metallica concert now. And I think job done short film, right? Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it may, like if you’re ever wondering what those shows are like, this is, It feels like what they’re like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John like it gave me that experience. And it let me see the band performing.
⏹️ ▶️ John It was a little bit the production, a little bit hokey with sort of over dramatizing and
⏹️ ▶️ John slow-mo pans on the person’s face backstage when they’re probably bored out of their mind. But you get to see
⏹️ ▶️ John how the band performs, how they’re, you know, what what what what do people like about Metallica? I think it
⏹️ ▶️ John conveys that again. I don’t like particularly like Metallica, but I you watch this and you understand what people like
⏹️ ▶️ John about Metallica. What are these fans like about it? What do they have to offer? Why are they a famous good
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, and before you move on from that, the moment that Marco and I talked about a lot, uh, when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the, uh, James Hatfield, I think is the, uh, the singer’s name is like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right in the face of the fan and they, they actually did, I’m recounting from several months ago now, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they, they actually held the shot on that fan instead of following James as he walks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey away. And I just thought that was just such an incredible moment. And if I recall correctly, Marco, you felt very similarly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did that affect you in any way, shape or form? Or are you just kind of like, yeah, whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I, I, I remember you guys talking about it and I wasn’t looking for it, but when it came up, I’m like, oh, that must
⏹️ ▶️ John be the thing that we’re talking about because it was affecting it. And here’s the thing about the, all these little short films,
⏹️ ▶️ John the hard part is not the vision pro part. The hard part is making a compelling short film.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That moment is compelling
⏹️ ▶️ John outside the vision pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John reason you’re reacting to
⏹️ ▶️ John is because it’s one of the more affecting moments in the short film and other parts are less so. So
⏹️ ▶️ John like, it’s kind of like any time thing where there’s a technology, you know, like the movie with like the, you know, the trains coming out
⏹️ ▶️ John of the screen with the first moving pictures. Like you can do that once or twice, but eventually it’s like, okay, well show me a compelling story. I’m no
⏹️ ▶️ John longer interested in the fascinating medium of the moving picture. Now you
⏹️ ▶️ John got to actually write a good script, get good actors, and you know, like, and I feel like Vision Pro, these little demo things
⏹️ ▶️ John demonstrate that because very quickly the Vision Pro-ness takes a backseat to,
⏹️ ▶️ John is this a thing that I find interesting to watch? You know, and you can make interesting little short
⏹️ ▶️ John things and you can also make ones that just feel kind of flat. And what I find is that
⏹️ ▶️ John very quickly, I started judging all these based on how much I would like them if I was just watching them on
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like I said,
⏹️ ▶️ John even the Highline one, I think that’s good even if you’re not in a Vision Pro. Now the Vision Pro just
⏹️ ▶️ John adds to it, but that can only be an ad, it can’t make up for, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John a bad script, a bad story, bad editing or whatever. And the other thing I’ll add in all this content
⏹️ ▶️ John that I’m watching, so far, I haven’t watched the Parkour one, so far, fingers
⏹️ ▶️ John crossed, zero motion sickness.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m genuinely shocked by that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m as shocked as you are. I didn’t have it in the demo either, but I’m like, of course, I saw very little things. I haven’t watched
⏹️ ▶️ John the Parkour one. I did watch all of the flying over scenic places, like the Hawaii and
⏹️ ▶️ John all that stuff. I thought maybe that moment made me motion sick, but no, they fly so gently.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I got to say, I am not prone to motion sickness, but, and I can’t remember a specific example of a particular
⏹️ ▶️ Casey moment, but there’s been times particularly in flight where not that I’ve been motion sick, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve had a little bit of like maybe light vertigo where I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John kind of like, In flight as
⏹️ ▶️ John in you’re on an airplane wearing the vision pro? No,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, no, no. I’m sorry. When, when you’re doing like a soaring Disney world, like, you know, you’re, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the perspective of the plane flying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John over. Boundless I think it was called. Was that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one? Yeah. And I mean, this will happen to, or like, uh, I think during submerged, if I correctly, we talked about this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there was a moment where the camera’s moving and it’s, it’s just kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey off putting, not I’m making it out to be worse than it is, but it’s a little bit off putting because your body
⏹️ ▶️ Casey expects to feel and all the feelings that you associate with your body moving
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because the camera’s moving, but you’re stationary and yet your body’s expecting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a feeling it’s not getting. And it’s, it’s again, it’s a lightly off putting. And, and I feel
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I’ve gotten that from time to time, uh, when doing like flying scenes, which is weird to say,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to hear you say that you’re unaffected by it because you’re affected by everything and I’m affected
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by nothing and there’s occasions.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like the flying ones, they fly so, like they’re not moving fast, they’re not swooping, like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John just more kind of like a slow movement over stuff. Like I also watched the
⏹️ ▶️ John ice surfing in Iceland. I thought that story was interesting. But you know, like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John my memory of these and my ranking of them has nothing to do with the how well they take
⏹️ ▶️ John advantage of the Vision Pro. And I you know, you guys talked a lot about like what’s too much cuts, what’s not enough
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. I you’re right that like cutting too much doesn’t lend itself well to the Vision Pro, but
⏹️ ▶️ John also again, if these were flat to be bad editing is bad. Right. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s it’s a it’s difficult to to pull this off with or without the 3D cameras,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a challenge to make compelling content. Yeah, so I haven’t seen every single thing, but I’ve seen a lot of the stuff and I will
⏹️ ▶️ John go back and watch the rest of it just because each one of them, I feel like, you know, I’d like to see someone,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, and I don’t blame like the submerged people or anything. I was like, it’s new technology. Let’s, let’s figure out what we
⏹️ ▶️ John can do. Let’s try some stuff. So this is stuff you try. Doesn’t work. Like I think a lot of the shot design and editing
⏹️ ▶️ John and submerge does not work, but someone’s got to try to find that out. You know, it on paper,
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like it might be compelling in practice. Having shallow depth of field is not
⏹️ ▶️ John really great inside the vision probe because your eyes try to focus on the part that they can’t focus on and is never gonna come into focus.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s the part that gives me, I think, a little bit of motion sickness, or at least
⏹️ ▶️ Marco eye strain or some version of it. Whenever I try to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco focus on something that is not in focus and I can’t focus on it, that messes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with my feelings, I think, more than the motion does.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we talked about this when we were, before the Vision Pro came out, about having variable focal and the various technologies to do that,
⏹️ ▶️ John but that doesn’t exist in the Vision Pro. towards a fixed focal distance. And so when anything’s out of focus, it will never
⏹️ ▶️ John be in focus. And the way that manifests, not for motion sickness, but for like
⏹️ ▶️ John eye-crossingly headache-inducing annoyingness, it’s on the MotoGP
⏹️ ▶️ John one, people talk in French and they have subtitles. And this is,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if this is an inherent problem with the Vision Pro, but the choice they made to deal with this was difficult because here’s the thing with the subtitles.
⏹️ ▶️ John The subtitles are on the screen as like a tinted black rectangle with white text on it or whatever, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re watching the Vision Pro, you’re watching these guys, they’re walking around by their motorcycle, or they’re sitting on a couch talking to each other, or he’s
⏹️ ▶️ John riding on a stationary bike or whatever, and he’s talking and the subtitle stuff appears. Very,
⏹️ ▶️ John very often, the subtitle stuff in like
⏹️ ▶️ John picture space on the screen was not at the depth it was in
⏹️ ▶️ John focus-wise on the screen, if that makes sense. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John would try to focus on where the text would be if it was floating, where it
⏹️ ▶️ John appears to be in the scene. Like it looks like it’s floating between this guy and that guy, or like two feet
⏹️ ▶️ John in front of the couch, but it’s not there. I have to like, to look at these subtitles, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John overlaid on top of everything. I have to focus on whatever the fixed focal distance of the display is, but my eyes
⏹️ ▶️ John would try to focus on not the fixed focal distance of the display, but like further
⏹️ ▶️ John into the image where it looks like that thing is hovering in the space of the 2D image that’s behind
⏹️ ▶️ John it. And it would make me essentially go cross-eyed and double vision on, I couldn’t read the subtitles
⏹️ ▶️ John because I kept double visioning them. Like, why is this happening? Are the subtitles blurry? It’s like, no, you keep thinking
⏹️ ▶️ John the subtitles are somewhere in the space of the scene. They’re not, they’re not in
⏹️ ▶️ John the scene. They are at the fixed focal distance of the display
⏹️ ▶️ John and you have to focus on them there, even though looking at that part of the picture, which by the way, you can see through
⏹️ ▶️ John the little subtitle thing, right? Even though focusing on that part of the picture, like Marco said, would require you to focus
⏹️ ▶️ John on a distance that is not the same as the focal distance of the Vision Pro. And so you’re getting that, Marco, when you
⏹️ ▶️ John just see a blurry version on the screen, I’m getting it trying to read the subtitles.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s a difficult problem because it’s so convincing that the subtitles are there floating in the
⏹️ ▶️ John scene that it causes my eyes to pick the wrong focal distance. So maybe I could get used to it, or maybe they
⏹️ ▶️ John could put the subtitles lower down or make them opaque
⏹️ ▶️ John or I don’t know, like make them go edge to edge so it’s so clear that they couldn’t possibly
⏹️ ▶️ John be floating between the ottoman and the couch, you know? Like it’s a tricky problem
⏹️ ▶️ John to have, but it’s something I didn’t think of before. Subtitles in a fixed focal length VR,
⏹️ ▶️ John subtitles, your brain might think they are not where they are and you might get double vision.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s very, when you’re, I don’t know if it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like me or my eyes or like the way my eyes work, I don’t know what it is, but like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I, in real life, in regular life, as I have needed reading glasses for up-close
⏹️ ▶️ Marco focus over the last three to four years, when I am not wearing reading glasses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or progressives, and when I try to look at something up close that I can’t get sharp,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it causes similar kind of like eye strain. And I think people who have lived with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco imperfect vision for their whole lives, maybe they’re more used to it than I am, and maybe it doesn’t have the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco effect or noticeability for them. But for me, it’s really uncomfortable, and I start getting headaches and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco eye strain. It’s very uncomfortable for me to be unable to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco focus on something that I’m trying to read or look at. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I switch to glasses whenever possible, or avoid doing those things, you know, close up when I can.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In the Vision Pro, nothing is ever that much in focus and I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the reading inserts for it. They don’t seem to make a difference for the distance that it’s rendering
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things at. And it’s because of, as we were mentioning earlier, all of those different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco layers of image processing and slight, you know, softening or sampling or warping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are occurring to make all the optics work in the Vision Pro. Nothing in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Vision Pro is super sharp to my eyes. Some things are more than others, but like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing is really, really sharp all the time. And when I’m watching immersive video,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is made even more obvious to me. And part of that’s just because immersive video oftentimes is not shot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco super high resolutions or not delivered at super high resolutions yet because everything’s so young around it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But also part of that is just like the screens and the realities of it and the optics of things not being fully in focus.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so when I’m watching that immersive video, so often I’m feeling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that same eye strain feeling that as if I’m trying to read my phone without my glasses on and I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t quite get it sharp. And it really throws me off. And it makes me feel
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like kind of unwell and certainly unpleasant. And I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to solve that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem. That might just be how my eyes react to that kind of thing. Maybe this will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just never work for me. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John I I think the eye strain you’re talking about like it’s it’s less familiar to me because I’m nearsighted
⏹️ ▶️ John which means I can’t see things far away And when you can’t see things far away
⏹️ ▶️ John There is no Thing that might my understanding at least my experience and some
⏹️ ▶️ John Optometrists can write and tell me if I’m wrong about this is that there’s nothing the muscles That
⏹️ ▶️ John squish your eyeball can do to make you see things far away better They’re far away.
⏹️ ▶️ John They can’t, the muscles can’t push. They can only pull. That’s all muscles do is they contract. They either contract
⏹️ ▶️ John or don’t contract. And there’s not two opposing sets of muscles. One of them that pulls your eyeball out of your face. And one
⏹️ ▶️ John of them pulls your eyeball in. There’s no, right. Uh, if
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re looking at something, it’s up close. What you’re trying to do is have those muscles in your eye,
⏹️ ▶️ John squish your eyeball so that it can focus on the things that are closer to you. And as you get older, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John your lens gets less flexible because it gets harder and yellowed and gross and just
⏹️ ▶️ John like the rest of your body. And and the lens doesn’t. Squish
⏹️ ▶️ John as much, but damned if your muscles in your eye won’t try to squish it. And that’s I feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like that eye strain feeling. I can get that by either putting in my distance contacts or putting on my distance glasses
⏹️ ▶️ John and trying to look at my phone screen. And my eyes are like, come on, squish those friggin
⏹️ ▶️ John lenses just a little bit more and you’ll be able to focus. And it’s never going to happen.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re old and lenses just aren’t gonna squish like that anymore and you get eye strain
⏹️ ▶️ John If that’s happening inside the vision Pro Like maybe I don’t know what the solution is But like I
⏹️ ▶️ John I went back and forth on this back when the vision Pro came out and also for this M2 one to figure out what I was gonna do with my contact
⏹️ ▶️ John lenses and stuff I’m pretty sure Apple recommends
⏹️ ▶️ John according to all the text that I could find they use your distance glasses prescription in
⏹️ ▶️ John the Vision Pro, which makes me think, Marco, that you should not be using any kind of lenses. If you don’t need glasses to drive, if
⏹️ ▶️ John your distance vision is uncorrected, then you shouldn’t have any lenses in the Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but I’ve tried it both ways. Like I spent significant time with it, both with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no corrections and with the plus one reading glasses, reading inserts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it doesn’t seem to make much of a difference. Like I really can’t tell any difference at all when I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use them versus not
⏹️ ▶️ John them. Do you get less eye strain with no inserts?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, it’s exactly, because when I’m looking in the Vision Pro, the sharpest things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the Vision Pro are the UI. It’s like the windows, the controls. Those are actually the sharpest things.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What is not sharp is video content. And it seems like it’s a combination
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of low resolution of the signal, and also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the optics of not having everything in the scene be in focus. And it just, it never
⏹️ ▶️ Marco looks good to me. it always looks a little bit soft, a little bit blurry, or a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco blurry if I’m trying to look around the scene more. And the only way I can watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco immersive video on the Vision Pro without having really bad eye problems or motion
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sickness or other things is if I diligently never look at the periphery, if I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only look straight ahead and never look around the scene, which is really hard because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can see the whole scene, so I always want to look, hey, what’s over there? It’s really hard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to not look around. And to be clear, what you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John talking about is moving your eyeballs, not moving your head.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. Like I want to look around the scene and maybe even move my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco head a little bit, sure.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, cause moving your head, you can keep your eyes focused on the center of the displays where most of the information is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but the problem is the video itself is not shot with the edges of the scene in focus, but you can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see what’s there sort of,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s just, ugh. That comes down to what the video content is. But like I was saying, when I was comparing the iPad to the
⏹️ ▶️ John Vision Pro, I can tell that the Vision Pro has less dots per degree than the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John held at the distance close to my face that in my red iPad, you know, like it looks softer,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I mean, TV looks softer before it was HD as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey fine with it,
⏹️ ▶️ John like 720p versus 1080 versus 240 or whatever a standard def was.
⏹️ ▶️ John I like softer video, video with less information bothers me less. It seems
⏹️ ▶️ John like what your eyes are constantly trying to make those sharper as if
⏹️ ▶️ John you have like your distance glasses on and you’re trying to read, as if you were trying to look at your phone without your reading glasses, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John And you’re like, if I just, if my eyeballs just squish a little bit, surely that becomes sharper, but like you’re never gonna add more pixels
⏹️ ▶️ John to that display. And maybe your vision is good enough to really see the limitations of them. I,
⏹️ ▶️ John again, I see the softness as well. I guess I was Mac virtual display. I see how much less
⏹️ ▶️ John crisp it is than the actual display, but I also see how much more crisp it is than the 3K display on
⏹️ ▶️ John the Intel thing. but my eyes are not saying, if only you squish more, that will get sharper. It’s just that
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m accepting of the resolution that it is. And speaking of Steve Trout and Smith,
⏹️ ▶️ John who’s got his as well, he’s like, I don’t think they need to add any more pixels to these displays. I disagree. I think you disagree as well, Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ John They need to add more pixels to these displays. Like it’s not pressing, but like technology should march
⏹️ ▶️ John on in the next few decades if they can add twice or four times to so many pixels to these displays.
⏹️ ▶️ John First of all, field of vision has to get bigger. Like the FOV, I forget what it is, but it is narrow
⏹️ ▶️ John and that could be much better. And second of all, even within the existing FOV, we
⏹️ ▶️ John need more pixels. Like I think you should be able to get it so that it is the same number of pixels
⏹️ ▶️ John per degree as a retina display at normal viewing distances. And even then I would say you could go a little bit farther
⏹️ ▶️ John if you wanted to make it look more realistic than a retina display, because let’s be honest, even though
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t see the retina pixels, kind of see them a little bit if you get real close.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you have, I’m sorry, maybe said this and I missed it. Do you have Zeiss inserts yet or no?
⏹️ ▶️ John do not. I’m working on that, but I currently do not have them. So I’m, you
⏹️ ▶️ John knowing that I have to do vision, that my distance vision, I am trying to cobble together
⏹️ ▶️ John a set of distance vision contact lenses from old and new contact lenses that I have hanging around because unfortunately
⏹️ ▶️ John my eyes are different from each other and my actual real current contact prescription intentionally
⏹️ ▶️ John has one eye for distance and one eye for up close, which sounds terrible, but it’s better than not being able to read your phone with your contacts
⏹️ ▶️ John in, believe me. And your brain gets used to it, right? So I’m cobbling together a
⏹️ ▶️ John slightly inaccurate prescription with contacts. Which means every time I wanna use the
⏹️ ▶️ John Vision Pro, I have to put in contacts, because as soon as I’m done using the Vision Pro, I need to take those out because I cannot use a computer or a
⏹️ ▶️ John phone with those contacts in. So it’s kind of an ordeal to use the Vision Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is, you know, if and when I get lens inserts, that will go a long way towards making it easier just
⏹️ ▶️ John to pop on the Vision Pro. What I will say though is I’ve become very good at using the Vision Pro without
⏹️ ▶️ John contacts in. Like I take off my glasses and I put on the Vision Pro and it’s as blurry as hell in
⏹️ ▶️ John there. It’s like, you know, 2350, 24, like whatever my vision is like without them.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if you know what the UI looks like and you know, can sense changes in like saturation and
⏹️ ▶️ John brightness, like I can actually use the UI. The problem is like, when I was trying to like, I was trying to test the
⏹️ ▶️ John like hold down on the X button thing that, uh, that, uh, who was it?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey The new written
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, Oh, let me put the vision pro on and try that. So here I am blurring the vision pro. I get the X button. I pinched to hold down
⏹️ ▶️ John the menu pops up. I’m like, does that say. Hide
⏹️ ▶️ John because I knew what it was supposed to say beforehand, I could believe that, and then, you know, I could select the option and do it or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t recommend using the vision pro that way, but let’s be honest. If I take off my glasses and walk around the house, it’s a very similar
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, sitting here now, what a week and a half, two weeks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in or whatever it’s been, uh, vision pro quote unquote ownership, uh, granted the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey price was incredible, so the price was right for you. But do you, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on a broad level, and I’ll probably ask you this again in a couple of weeks, are you enjoying it? Do you, do you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not like it? Is it burdensome? Is it fun? Is it crappy? what is your current thinking on
⏹️ ▶️ John I like having it here. It’s a fun, cool gadget to play with. I’m glad I didn’t pay for it. Fair.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s ideal. Like, oh, if someone’s gonna lend you one for free for a while, sure, yeah. If someone offers you that,
⏹️ ▶️ John take it. You know, it’s a cool thing to try out. But when I have to send it back to you, I’m probably not going to be too broken