662: Just Break the Law
23 Oct 2025Finally, we have all taken a trip together to Mount Hood.
Episode Description:
- Pre-show: More people have been infected by Goose
- 🗣️ New ATP Members’ Special: ATP Insider: The Restaurant, Season One 🗣️
- An aside about outerwear
- 🗣️ The ATP Holiday Store is back! Order before 9 November! 🗣️
- Follow-up:
- Recognition corner
- Casey begs for help
- Callsheet
Listbug (FB17661404) is fixed in 26.1 🎉 - However,
Menu(::primaryAction:)is broken (FB20755661)
- Callsheet
- Some M5 Vision Pro clarifications
- The M5 does have Memory Integrity Enforcement
- The M5 MacBook pro without a charger is actually cheaper in most regions
- EU is €100 cheaper without / €35 with (via Nick Heer)
- UK is the same though
- The non-determinism of LLMs (via Heiko Hotz)
- The M5 Vision Pro
- Dual Knit Band
- HDCP
- Television
- Theater
- New Developer Strap (behind Apple Developer paywall)
- Post-show: John’s weird Finder animation bug
- Members-only ATP Overtime: Apple 🤝🏻 F1 in 🇺🇸
Sponsored by:
- Squarespace: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code atp.
- DeleteMe: Making it quick, easy and safe to remove your personal data online.
- Leesa: A mattress for every body and budget; use code ATP for 20% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off.
Become a member for ATP Overtime, ad-free episodes, member specials, and our early-release, unedited “bootleg” feed!
Chapters
- AGP
- The Restaurant, Season One
- ATP Store
- Recognition corner
- 26.1 fixes bugs!
- Sponsor: Leesa (code ATP)
- M5 Vision Pro follow-up
- MBP charger-in-box debate
- LLM determinism
- Sponsor: DeleteMe (code ATP)
- M5 Vision Pro review
- John finally “gets” a VIsion Pro
- Sponsor: Squarespace
- ATP goes to Mount Hood 🖼️
- Ending theme
- John’s unsatisfying bug
AGP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, not to turn this into the accidental goose podcast, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey when we were at the show together, I had either self-elected or maybe one of you or Tyler had sent
⏹️ ▶️ Casey me off to get waters, if I remember correctly. I think I self-elected to do that. And I got stopped on the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way by a couple of former coworkers. And I was chit-chatting with them.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then one of them I knew some, and he’s a nice guy, but I didn’t know terribly well. And the other one I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey knew better. And we hadn’t seen each other in years and years. and years and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey chit chat a little bit then and then made arrangements to meet up for lunch today. And we met up for lunch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and we’re catching up about, you know, what he’s been up to, what I’ve been up to and so on and so forth. And then toward the end of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lunch, I think apropos of nothing, if I’m not mistaken, uh, my friend Dave said,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, I gotta tell you, I’ve listened to nothing but goose since that concert.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Same, same story here. So I gotta tell you, uh, it’s been, it’s been a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey virus and I am deeply infected. A lot more enjoyable than COVID though, at least I got that going for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me. say it’s substantially less destructive than COVID. I would
The Restaurant, Season One
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we have some administrivia to take care of, some exciting administrivia to take care of. First of all, we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually remembering for once, and part of the reason I think we’re remembering to talk about the new
⏹️ ▶️ Casey members special is because John had the foresight to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey put it in our internal show notes with a bright yellow background and a really,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really pink foreground, new members special, because every other time the three
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us just plow right, butt right by and completely forget to bring it up. So we have a new member special.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m happy to introduce it, but I think Marco might make the most sense for you to do so.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. So as listeners might remember, I weirdly bought a restaurant.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it’s a seasonal restaurant that is open only in the summer. The season has now ended
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for its first year. And so this member special was basically recapping,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, how the first year went, some lessons learned, some, you know, both technical
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lessons, things that worked, things that didn’t work, things that were interesting, as well as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people lessons and business lessons. So that’s, I think it turned out pretty well. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you care about that kind of stuff, give it a listen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, you know, we got a lot of really complimentary feedback on it, which I really, really appreciate, including
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot of people. A lot of people had said, you know, oh, I used to work food service or maybe even I I do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey work food service and it was fascinating to hear what the other, not the other side of the table, but for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lack of a better way of describing it, the other side of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco table of management and… The other side of the bar? The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco other side of the bar,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? The other side of the pass! Oh, the other side of the pass! There you go. So anyways, what the other side looks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, thinks about, etc. And certainly I have never managed people and if I were to have done so, it would have been likely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have been in a more white-collar environment. Is that uncouth to say? The collar happened
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be white. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. But you know what I mean. So anyways, I thought it was fascinating. I really enjoyed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it and a handful of people reached out and said the same. So we appreciate you and I appreciate Marco, you talk to us
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. I thought it was really good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is there some kind of like generic wardrobe thing like that to describe tech workers? Is there like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a, like a blue polo collar,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like what? Yeah, right, right. No, it’s a pullover, isn’t it? Or whatever the San Franciscans always use. Black hoodie.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s a black hoodie
⏹️ ▶️ Marco job. Right, right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or Patagonia. Isn’t that like the common like swag?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Well, that’s like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh yeah, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The Patagonia vest in particular, not any Patagonia, but the vest. Are you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey vest people? I have gone in and out of vests as a like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey warmth providing technique.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Well, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everybody who uses them goes in and out of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Touche sir. I mean to say that I have phases where I enjoy them and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use them in phases where I do not. Largely though, I feel like my core isn’t the thing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s coldest even without a vest on. that are cold and and I’m one of those people
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel like we just talked about this maybe not but I’m one of those people that my legs can be cold and I’m fine
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with that but my arms if they’re cold I’m very perturbed and so typically
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m going to be dressing for warmth I’m definitely including sleeves. Marco you don’t I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t I haven’t known you to be a vest person that I can recall.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I have literally ever worn a vest because they well the few times I had to like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it you know as part of like a costume or something or like those the weird tuxedo vest that you get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the high school orchestra uniforms, that kind of stuff. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t really get it. I don’t get the vest lifestyle. To me, I love jackets.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Part of why I like fall is that it is the best jacket season. Because winter jackets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are a little bit too boring because they just have to be super bulky and warm. Summer has no jackets, really.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And spring, it’s too wet. So that rules out leather and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff. but fall, you can, fall is where all the best jackets are. And so,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I love a good jacket. And I have so many that I just love and I can’t wait to wear them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like exactly the right weather that they’re appropriate for. But vests seem like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m gonna take like this nice jacket and I’m just gonna cut off half of it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It removes so much of the feel of the jacket. It’s also like, it’s not as good as like a hoodie
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a pullover or like, I don’t really know what they are for. They don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem like they do much for fashion. They don’t seem like they do much for comfort. They seem like, as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you said, like they warm up the already warmest part of your body. I’ve heard the,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say the propaganda from the vest enthusiasts, that like, well, if you warm up your core,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then all of your extremities will also eventually warm up themselves. It’s like, okay, but what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you just warm them up immediately from the start? It’s actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better that way. So I don’t understand. And maybe there’s some kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of advantages that vests offer that I don’t need. I’m not sure, but whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they are, I have never felt the need. And if it’s cold enough to need some kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco augmentation in clothing, I’d rather wear a nice, comfortable, like, you know, pullover
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a hoodie or a jacket, because they’re so much nicer. John,
⏹️ ▶️ John vest person? As low as I am to expand this diversion even farther than it’s gone. And I will
⏹️ ▶️ John say that I’m not a vest person, but I can think of reasons that Marco hasn’t mentioned why people might be vest people.
⏹️ ▶️ John One of them is, I find this when I’m in a season where I have
⏹️ ▶️ John shorts are gone and I’m back to jeans. I find that
⏹️ ▶️ John my shorts pockets are easier to fill with like my phone and wallet and keys than
⏹️ ▶️ John jeans pockets are, because jeans pockets are a little bit less forgiving. And when I go to jacket, the jacket pockets
⏹️ ▶️ John are great for that. what if it’s not quite jacket weather yet, but it’s also no longer shorts
⏹️ ▶️ John weather. I think a vest would provide you with vest pockets to put stuff without making
⏹️ ▶️ John you too hot because your arms are out. And the second thing is I could see it for the people who are,
⏹️ ▶️ John again, it’s a temperature thing for the people who are sort of find themselves being too hot in a jacket, but
⏹️ ▶️ John too cold without one, having a vest is kind of like having blankets on you, but sticking your leg out to
⏹️ ▶️ John moderate the temperature. And your arms are the legs in this case, where you are, you’re keeping yourself
⏹️ ▶️ John warm. And if you get cold, you can bring your limbs closer to your body. But if you start to get hot, you can spread
⏹️ ▶️ John your arms out and you’ll get to radiate some of the heat, you know? So it’s just like, it’s, it’s an in between thing. I feel like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure this is why people wear them, but advantages I can see our pockets without sleeves and warmth
⏹️ ▶️ John without being too warm in your arms.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But can you just wear a jacket and leave it unzipped, which is usually the best way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to wear most jackets?
⏹️ ▶️ John You can do that too, but it depends on where you’re generating your heat. Sometimes it, you know, it’s a little sweating the armpit area, whereas
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re radiating the armpits out with the vest on, you know, I can see I again, I don’t personally
⏹️ ▶️ John own one or have never worn one, but I can see plausible advantages.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, so this morning, I started this morning with a very long walk, I started out wearing a jacket.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, you know, as the walk went on, it was like it was like four miles and I had a backpack on. So it was like, it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting a little warm. And so at first, you know, I started out zipped, then I got a little warm, I unzipped the jacket, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco step one. All right, then step two was I took off the jacket now a vest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically starts like kind of between Step one and
⏹️ ▶️ John two I guess or between two things Maybe you would never have gotten warm enough that you needed to remove a piece of clothing had you worn a vest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I would have gotten just as warm as when I was wearing like the the open general You’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John never know until you try and I think a fleece vest would work perfectly on you fleece.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, that’s what that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John what the Patagonia stuff are made of is that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean some of them are I would have assumed they were like the micro puff Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know the nuance differences. I’m saying that fuzzy kind of fabric
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No The the best reason to buy Patagonia is they have this like a nano puff or micro puff Insulation that like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is basic synthetic insulation it weighs nothing and is super warm the downside is their
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff tends to look like trash bags full of stuffing But it’s super
⏹️ ▶️ Casey practical as a final vest related note I will say that I do love a suit with a vest which means it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably deeply unfashionable but I do enjoy that quite a bit.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, even just a regular suit, but with a vest below the jacket, I do really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that. To be clear,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no judgment against formal suit vests. They can be part of a very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco elegant suit. That’s a totally different thing than what we’re talking about.
ATP Store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, well, you know what, Marco, you had mentioned earlier that the vest propagandists will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell you you need to keep your core warm in order to be warm. And there’s another kind of propagandist,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey who I think is actually supported by science, that would tell you that in order to keep your body warm, you need to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey capture heat in the places that it’s most likely to escape, which as far as I’m aware is your feet
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and what? Your head. And if only there was a mechanism by
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which you could keep your heat tucked in nice and tight around your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey head. And I think that we might have a solution for you, John, do you have anything you might’ve cooked up that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we can talk about here?
⏹️ ▶️ John I do. It’s that time of year again, it’s time for the ATP holiday store. And I know this seems
⏹️ ▶️ John to get earlier and earlier every year, but like I said, uh, well, every time we launched this, we’re always trying to get
⏹️ ▶️ John people their stuff before the holidays. And that is tricky with variability of shipping and everything. And plus we want
⏹️ ▶️ John the sale to run for a long time. So anyway, the sale is starting right now. If you’re listening live, you can go to the store right
⏹️ ▶️ John now. atp.fm slash store and obviously it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even November yet. John, this is like pumpkin spice creep.
⏹️ ▶️ John My wife was just having a big list of like the Hallmark holiday movies. They’re starting already too.
⏹️ ▶️ John So yeah, we just, it’ll, it’ll run through November. The sale ends November 9th, but it is
⏹️ ▶️ John starting right now. Here’s what we’ve got for you in the holiday store this year. As Casey alluded to,
⏹️ ▶️ John we do in fact have another hat. Uh, I think it was last year or the year before at some point in the past,
⏹️ ▶️ John we did the ATP chicken hat, which is an attempt to reproduce
⏹️ ▶️ John a hat that I own in love by manufacturing something that is essentially exactly like the 20 year
⏹️ ▶️ John old hat that I have in my house, only a different color and with an ATP logo on it. And that product was very
⏹️ ▶️ John successful and lots of people liked it. I think it was successful because it allowed me to have
⏹️ ▶️ John new sort of backup copies of my beloved chicken hat. It’s called the chicken hat because when you put it on your head,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s kind of like a got like a pointy kind of flat top triangle shape that goes along the top of your head, kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of like a comb on a rooster. I know a rooster is not a chicken. It’s not a perfect name. Anyway. Um, my
⏹️ ▶️ John dad used to wear these hats when I was a kid. I got one, I wore it for years. Uh, I wanted to reproduce
⏹️ ▶️ John it and I did it. Lots of people bought them. They liked them. It was great. And then it went away and some people are like, Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John I missed out on the chicken hat. Well, you know, you snooze, you lose. This is a one-off custom product that we made, but there
⏹️ ▶️ John were some complaints about the chicken hat. So what we have now is Chicken Hat 2.0. It
⏹️ ▶️ John tries to address the two main complaints about the Chicken Hat 1.0.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s the same as the regular Chicken Hat, but we just upgraded the processor.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, if only, if only. I went through many iterations and many prototypes to come up with the 2.0,
⏹️ ▶️ John surprisingly. So the first is that it is slightly bigger than the original Chicken Hat. One
⏹️ ▶️ John of the complaints we had from people who had larger heads was that my one size fits all Chicken Hat, which by the way, my
⏹️ ▶️ John original Chicken Hat from 20 years ago is literally one size fits all. It says it in the little tag thing, right? One
⏹️ ▶️ John size fits all chicken hat. One size is obviously not gonna fit all. And my 20 year old one had been through the wash
⏹️ ▶️ John several times, so it had surely shrunk. Now it fit my head fine. And the one, the copy I made, chicken hat 1.0,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you lay it on top of my original hat, they’re exactly the same. So I fulfilled that mission. But some
⏹️ ▶️ John people said, hey, I got a big head, I bought you a chicken hat. It’s too tight on me, I don’t like it. So this one is slightly bigger,
⏹️ ▶️ John not tremendously bigger, because we didn’t just wanna make this a big head hat just for Elaine Bettis, right? We have to
⏹️ ▶️ John make it just slightly bigger. So it is approximately, and I have to say approximately because it’s so
⏹️ ▶️ John hard to measure this because it’s made of like fuzzy, stretchy material. It is approximately one half inch larger
⏹️ ▶️ John in circumference, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but I can tell you when you start adding distance to circumference on hats, it makes them feel
⏹️ ▶️ John looser real fast. So this is slightly bigger. If the old one fit you, I think this one will too.
⏹️ ▶️ John This one fits me fine too. If the last one was not even close to fitting you, this one probably won’t either.
⏹️ ▶️ John But just FYI, this one is slightly bigger. Second, lots of people didn’t know how to wear the old chicken
⏹️ ▶️ John hat, because we went back and forth about where to put the ATP logo on the chicken hat 1.0. We ended up
⏹️ ▶️ John putting it kind of on the back side. And I thought, well, it doesn’t really matter where the logo
⏹️ ▶️ John is, people will see the seam and they’ll just know with clothes that the seam goes in the back. But a lot of people didn’t know that. A lot of people put
⏹️ ▶️ John the seam in the front, people wore it sideways, like you can wear the hat however you want, but it was supposed to go with the seam in the back.
⏹️ ▶️ John So this one, we’ve solved that problem by putting the ATP logo where everybody thought
⏹️ ▶️ John It should be on the old hat, which is front and center. So like right along like the headband headband on your
⏹️ ▶️ John forehead, there is a full color ATP logo, just like it wasn’t before. But instead of being on the
⏹️ ▶️ John back, it’s on the front. So there you go. ATP chicken at two point oh about a half inch bigger in circumference. Logo
⏹️ ▶️ John is on the front and center. Supplies of this item are limited because we have to guess how many you’re going to buy and then buy them
⏹️ ▶️ John all up front, which is what we did. And now I cross my fingers and hope we didn’t guess wrong.
⏹️ ▶️ John limited number of these, and when they’re gone, they’re gone. And if they’re not gone, we’ll be selling them for the next 10 years. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that out. Please don’t make us sell them for 10 years. Go ahead. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll get to that when we get to the last product. Anyway, next up, we’ve got a bunch of new products this year.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’re gonna begin the theme of the new products in a bit, but first we have a conventional new product, which is the ATP Quarter
⏹️ ▶️ John Zip. If you’ve ever purchased the ATP Embroidered Zip Hoodie,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is not that. This has a zip, but it doesn’t go all the way down. It just zips down about a quarter of the way. I’m told these
⏹️ ▶️ John are very popular. I personally think either make it zip all the way or don’t have a zipper. But apparently people love
⏹️ ▶️ John these things and they do look very fall-like. They’re kind of some kind of fuzzy, cozy, stretchy material,
⏹️ ▶️ John come in a couple of colors and they have an embroidered full-color ATP logo that’s on the
⏹️ ▶️ John upper left of the chest. So they look very fall-like and snugly and I’m probably gonna get one just
⏹️ ▶️ John to try it out even though I think it’s dumb that the zipper doesn’t go all the way down. But that’s the ATP quarter zip. I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey also like to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey add. Well, I will sell it by saying, even though I adore the ATP hoodie,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t actually want the hoodie part of the hoodie. I’d rather an ATP zippered sweatshirt.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’ve gone back and forth with Cotton Bureau about how to make that happen. We, and by that, I mean, I haven’t really been
⏹️ ▶️ Casey happy with any of the options so far, which is why it hasn’t happened, but this is very close
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to that insofar as there’s no hood, it is a sweatshirt. I don’t know if it’s sweatshirt
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John material, but it’s got a little collar
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on it. Kind of. Yeah, exactly. So I am definitely going to pick one of these up and I’m excited to try it as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John looks very stylish. This looks you could wear this to work and it would be fine. Like it’s a good fall thing and it comes in some
⏹️ ▶️ John fun colors. It’s like a black one, obviously. There’s a navy one, but there’s also a white one, which seems like it would be a nightmare
⏹️ ▶️ John to keep clean, but it looks really good with the with the logo on it. It reminds me of like old Apple stuff. So check it
⏹️ ▶️ John out. There’s also like a greenish one as well. Now for the theme for the new products for
⏹️ ▶️ John before and before these other products came in, the theme for the new products this year is
⏹️ ▶️ John strangely described as ugly clothing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wow. Wow. Continuing the amazing sales pitch.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, items that have things on them that are known to be
⏹️ ▶️ John not particularly visually pleasing, but that’s part of the point. So I’ll start with the first one and hopefully this will make sense.
⏹️ ▶️ John This new shirt, new product is called ATP Tahoe. You may see where this is
⏹️ ▶️ John going. if you’ve heard the program, heard us talk about Tahoe. It’s difficult to do
⏹️ ▶️ John anything kind of liquid glassy on these shirts if you’re not doing like the on-demand sort
⏹️ ▶️ John of dot matrix printing thing. These are like, these are solid color ink, multiple passes, blah, blah, blah, like the high quality thing,
⏹️ ▶️ John but you can’t really do like gradients or smooth things. So we couldn’t do any sort of refracted
⏹️ ▶️ John glass or blurry text or anything. It wouldn’t work well with this type of shirt. So what
⏹️ ▶️ John I decided to do was, Mac OS Tahoe had changed
⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of icons for the Apple system apps. And in particular, they changed a whole bunch of sort of utility icons to
⏹️ ▶️ John use this god awful crescent wrench inside a round rack with like a,
⏹️ ▶️ John what is it? A hexagon or an octagon, it’s a hexagon I think. A hexagon inside the thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John So this is the crescent wrench in the squircle with a hexagon and inside the hexagon
⏹️ ▶️ John is an ATP logo. And here’s my description of the product on the
⏹️ ▶️ John store website. Mac OS 26 Tahoe is a thing that happened. Wear this shirt
⏹️ ▶️ John inspired by Tahoe’s most awkward icons as a warning for future generations. Well done, John.
⏹️ ▶️ John This shirt is not to commemorate, but just to mark the occasion that we lived through
⏹️ ▶️ John a time when Apple decided to change its icons in Mac OS and it decided that a bunch of
⏹️ ▶️ John them were gonna look like this. Not just one, not just one awful icon like this, but a family of them.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m also kind of marking liquid glass as a thing. Again, it’s harder
⏹️ ▶️ John to do that on a t-shirt, but I figured this was a good standard bear. You’ll have the shirt and you’ll look back on it and say, remember, hopefully we’ll all
⏹️ ▶️ John look back and laugh. Say, remember when they did that? Do you believe they changed the icons to look like this?
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what this shirt is. Now, if you think that icon is ugly, you’re wearing a shirt with an ugly icon. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s ugly, but it’s kind of like, it’s an important memorial. So if you want to mark that occasion,
⏹️ ▶️ John the shirts themselves come in many different colors and this, like all the products this year, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna get a T-shirt, long sleeve T-shirt, a sweatshirt, a pullover hoodie, a tank top, any variety and a whole
⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of different colors, all with that god awful icon on it with the ATP logo inside it. That’s ATP’s title.
⏹️ ▶️ John Next, we have an idea that is not my idea. This came from Adam Brandon long
⏹️ ▶️ John ago. Full credit to Adam Brandon for this idea. This is a shirt, let’s start with the
⏹️ ▶️ John first one. It’s called ATP T5-68A. Do you know what T568A is?
⏹️ ▶️ John If you’ve listened to the show for a long time, you do. T568A is one
⏹️ ▶️ John of the wiring standards for how you connect the different wires into an RJ45 ethernet
⏹️ ▶️ John jack. And the wires come in solid colors and stripe colors, and it tells you what order they go in. Put the
⏹️ ▶️ John solid red one, the green stripe one, you know, like what order should they go in from right to left? Because there has to be the same order on both
⏹️ ▶️ John ends of the connector, otherwise things don’t work. And T568A is a standard for doing that.
⏹️ ▶️ John As the description of the shirt says, the one true ethernet wiring standard. And it comes, it is the ATP
⏹️ ▶️ John logo with the six color stripes replaced with the colors of the ethernet wires
⏹️ ▶️ John in the order that they are in T560.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey absolutely incredible idea. And I’m so happy that you executed on
⏹️ ▶️ John it. And I think the ethernet wiring colors are ugly. They’re certainly not as pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John as the ATP like Apple inspired six color logos. There is like green and
⏹️ ▶️ John brown is one of the colors and orange and blue and red. It’s not particularly pretty, But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, they’re literally made to never be seen.
⏹️ ▶️ John And yes. And if you wear this shirt, first of all, say somebody has no idea what that ATP is,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re a network engineer. Those stripes are going to trigger something deep within them. Is
⏹️ ▶️ John that they’re going to be like, I think that’s is that a tennis shirt
⏹️ ▶️ John or but like, why does it have ether? It might say, huh, it’s funny, I don’t know what your shirt is about. But it kind of reminds me,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, wires, you can go, well, you know, they actually are the ethernet wires. You’re not, it’s not just reminding
⏹️ ▶️ John you of them. This shirt is intentionally invoking and that’s like never gonna happen. The whole game where my family’s
⏹️ ▶️ John playing to try to get someone to recognize them. This is a way harder level because, you know, forget about people knowing
⏹️ ▶️ John what ATP is. They have to know by looking at, they have to have crimped so many wires to be able to look at this and know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I recognize those colors. I recognize that stripe color pattern. That’s ethernet.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the point of this shirt. It’s perhaps one of the nerdiest shirts we’ve ever gotten. This and the Palm one, remember we did like the Palm graffiti ATP
⏹️ ▶️ John If someone comments on this shirt, you have found a fellow nerd. And you can buy one of these. And I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John a poser. I don’t think I’ve ever crimped an ethernet cable, but I’m going to wear one anyway, because I know what the standard
⏹️ ▶️ John out, John. Yeah. So anyway, thank you, Adam Brandon, for that idea. The next shirt in our lineup
⏹️ ▶️ John is, of course, ATP T5 68B. The other
⏹️ ▶️ John ethernet wiring standard, because, of course, there are two wiring standards, T5 68A and T5 68B,
⏹️ ▶️ John that are different from each other. For historic reasons, again, we’ll put a link in the show notes, you can see whatever past
⏹️ ▶️ John episode we talked about this. So we have two t-shirts, 568A and 568B. And what’s the difference?
⏹️ ▶️ John The colored stripes are in the B order on the B shirt and in the A order on the A shirt. If you buy
⏹️ ▶️ John both of these shirts and wear them on different days, you can, and someone at work makes a comment on it, the next week you
⏹️ ▶️ John wear the B one, see if they notice. See if they notice that it’s changed. See if they even know or are aware that it’s different. Because a lot
⏹️ ▶️ John of people I think who are crimping connectors have only ever been taught like the, Either the only other been taught the A way or the B way. They don’t know there’s two.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, we have two almost identical shirts that make our logo uglier. Incredible.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Amazing. I love this. I love it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I absolutely love this. Moving on to more conventional products. I forgot all about this until the products
⏹️ ▶️ John were announced. Uh, M five, we have M five shirts. Like I had all the products
⏹️ ▶️ John ready for the store and then, and then Apple announced all the M five based products. I’m like, Oh yeah, we should do M five shirts. We
⏹️ ▶️ John did again, no chip on the back. It’s just the M5 logo on the front with the pretty ATP colors. You
⏹️ ▶️ John can wear this and everyone will think you’re talking about BMW’s whole deal. Again, same thing. All the different
⏹️ ▶️ John varieties, long sleeves, sweatshirt, pullover, all that stuff. And we have a monochrome version of the M5 shirt,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is a little bit cheaper because it is only one ink color and it comes on a huge variety of colors. So
⏹️ ▶️ John you can get, you know, a purple or teal shirt with an M5 logo on it. It’s real nice.
⏹️ ▶️ John These next products I will keep selling until Even if not enough people buy them for them
⏹️ ▶️ John to be printed, which hasn’t happened yet, but I conceivably could happen. I’m gonna keep selling them until this issue resolves itself in
⏹️ ▶️ John one way or another. It’s the Mac Pro Believe shirts. I’m still out here believing. They’re either gonna cancel
⏹️ ▶️ John this product or they’re gonna make a decent Mac Pro or they’re gonna do something. When that happens, I will
⏹️ ▶️ John stop selling the Believe shirt probably and make a new shirt, either celebrating or bemoaning whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John it is that they did, but nothing has happened yet. So Mac Pro Believe shirts
⏹️ ▶️ John are available still. And then of course we have our ATP6 color shirts which is a
⏹️ ▶️ John white ATP logo on a variety of color shirts. We have our classic ATP
⏹️ ▶️ John regular shirt which has the rainbow ATP logo on a black shirt. And then we have our zip hoodie
⏹️ ▶️ John which was mentioned before. Still a great item, still one of my kids love theirs when they destroy them they ask
⏹️ ▶️ John for a new one. It’s really nice. We have our ATP hat. And then finally,
⏹️ ▶️ John the ATP hat is a baseball hat, not the chicken hat, just a baseball hat with the embroidered ATP logo on it. And finally,
⏹️ ▶️ John the ATP mugs that we’ve been selling for I don’t know how long, two years now? I don’t even know how
⏹️ ▶️ John long we’ve been selling these mugs. These are the same batch of mugs. When we guessed very wrong about how many we would sell,
⏹️ ▶️ John there are literally 10 mugs left. There have been 10
⏹️ ▶️ John mugs left for like three months. Cool. These mugs are priced to move. We’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John given up all semblance of making any kind of money. We are just trying to get rid of these mugs. Please buy these mugs.
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s 10 of them. I know we can do it. If we can get rid of these mugs and then we can just have
⏹️ ▶️ John chicken hats in inventory for the next 10 years.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They’re white on the outside and like a bluey purple.
⏹️ ▶️ John they look real good. I bought a bunch of them. Yes. They’re like, it’s cobalt blue on the outside and cobalt blue paint
⏹️ ▶️ John on the inside. It’s really nice. I like it. It’s just, I feel like anyone who wants a mug has one. And now these are,
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, they’re priced to move. 10 ATP mugs, please get rid of them. You’ll hear more about the show over
⏹️ ▶️ John the coming several weeks. Again, the sale ends November 9th. If you are an ATP member, remember that you get 15%
⏹️ ▶️ John off everything in the store. If you go to your member page, there will be a promo code for you there.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can paste in during the checkout process. If you log in to ATP.fm and then go to ATP.fm slash
⏹️ ▶️ John store, you don’t have to do that. If you click on any of the links, it will bring your promo code with you because you’re logged in and it knows what your promo code
⏹️ ▶️ John is. That system we developed a couple of years ago and it seems to work well. If you want
⏹️ ▶️ John to become a member, it is very easy to make up the price of one month of membership with the savings you
⏹️ ▶️ John get from 15% off if you buy a bunch of stuff. So there you have it. ATP.FM slash
⏹️ ▶️ John store, become a member to get 15% off. If you are a member, you will already get 15% off. Lots of great new products
⏹️ ▶️ John in the lineup this year. Some of our nerdiest ever, some of our ugliest ever, plus some classics.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is genuinely and also sarcastically incredible work, John. I’m very proud of you.
Recognition corner
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s do some followup. Uh, let’s go to ATP recognition corner. We, I really do want to retire
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this, but it brings me so much joy. I know nobody else cares about this, but me, but I love it. Uh, we had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey two independent reports. Uh, there was a, a really important and really impressive
⏹️ ▶️ Casey protest this past Saturday. The no Kings protest here in America. Uh, which not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get political, but I think all three of us, I’m pretty sure I can say all three of us stand with those who are protesting.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We agree with you anyways, Ben and Alexander. Uh, each independently emailed ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say, Hey, I met this other person and we, we, you know, one of them saw the other in an ATP shirt
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they really hit it off and had a really good time hanging out with the no Kings rally in Chicago. So I freaking love
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this. I think this is adorable and great and excellent and awesome. And I love every bit of it. And then,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, Pat B B Lee wrote in after hearing the follow-up about an ATP polo, getting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey someone a job and, and the ensuing favorite host discussion, I wanted to I wanted to cast my vote for future Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Only members get to hear him, though.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Members don’t get to hear future Marco. That’s the thing. They get
⏹️ ▶️ John to hear Casey talking to future Marco. Future
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Marco is silent.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’re not recording. When future Marco exists, there’s no recording going on because he’s editing. No,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco future Marco only says one word.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey But that’s also present Marco. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John technically future Marco from the time that Casey mentions you. But the real future Marco he’s talking to is
⏹️ ▶️ John the future Marco in editing land.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Fair. Anyway, what do you mean? You like future Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ John I see. It was very good. Present Marco is always becoming future Marco though, so there’s that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh gosh, can we not, can we not? All right, moving right along.
26.1 fixes bugs!
⏹️ ▶️ Casey A while ago, a few months ago now, maybe a couple months ago, I was talking about a really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of weird bug in CallSheet. And the short version of it is, particularly when you’re looking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at a person in CallSheet, if you flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, and scroll super, super fast,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and go scrolling up and down, up and down, up and down, eventually the table view, which is really a SwiftUI
⏹️ ▶️ Casey list, it will just start dropping rows. So you’ll start losing some of a person’s filmography.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I realized eventually that that is definitely not my bug. That’s definitely an Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bug. And I begged and pleaded through every mechanism I could think of, please,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple, please can you fix this? And sure enough, from everything I can tell, it is indeed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fixed in 26.1. And I should add, I’ve heard a lot of people with their own pet bugs
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever the case may be that have also said very good and complimentary things about 26.1. it sure seems like 26.1 is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey real.0 from what I can tell.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I think it’s probably pretty safe to update, upgrade, whatever, when the time comes. So I just wanted
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to publicly thank Apple and the SwiftUI developers for squaring this one away, because I’m sure it was a doozy.
⏹️ ▶️ John My brief bug story, I got one of my bugs sort of fixed in 26.1, and
⏹️ ▶️ John they said, hey, can you check to see if this is fixed, blah, blah, blah. I looked at it and I said, yeah, you fixed
⏹️ ▶️ John part of it, but part of it’s not fixed, because I did my bug report like I do to a little bug report with a sample project with text
⏹️ ▶️ John in the sample project. So you don’t have to look in two different places that says, do this expected results,
⏹️ ▶️ John A, actual results, B. And they made the actual results
⏹️ ▶️ John match half of the expected results, but
⏹️ ▶️ John all of it. And so I said, well, you know, good, you’ve fixed one of these things, but this other thing is still broken.
⏹️ ▶️ John And after several back and forth, they said, we just wanna close this one. We have, we’re tracking that other part.
⏹️ ▶️ John We were tracking the other part that you talked about in a separate bug, so can you just close this one? And I replied again and
⏹️ ▶️ John said, can you tell me the feedback number or somehow like, if they split this off for my
⏹️ ▶️ John bug, I’m no longer updated on the progress. Not that I’m updated that much anyway, but I’m kind of annoyed by that. Their desire
⏹️ ▶️ John to close this bug because it involves like the actual unexpected results are
⏹️ ▶️ John multifaceted and they just fix one facet and they want their cookie for fixing the one facet. And like, good,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m glad you fixed that one facet. It was the worst part, but there’s another part and they want it to be a separate bug and I’m annoyed by that. So I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John just venting slightly. but that’s yet another way that feedback can be slightly annoying because once I close this,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m pretty sure they’re gonna say, yeah, you have no more visibility into any of this. I asked, should I file another bug? Should I file
⏹️ ▶️ John a separate bug for the second part of it? Because that seems wasteful, but anyway, feedback, it is what it is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, and I also would like to add that I have a new bug. So I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right on the precipice of getting my much delayed and late
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Liquid Glass update out for CallSheet. And in doing testing, I noticed, actually
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a tester noticed, that if you imagine call sheet, you know, there’s a little pin icon in the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey toolbar that you can tap in order to pin or favorite an item. And then you can tap and hold
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in order to get a menu of other actions, right? So it works great in 18. In 26. So in 26,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, if you tap the pin, it just drops out on the floor.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it turns out that it’s, it’s, um, menu. and then there’s like a content
⏹️ ▶️ Casey label and then a place where it takes a closure for a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey default action, primary action as I believe what it’s called. And so this is such that you can
⏹️ ▶️ Casey provide a default action when you tap rather than tap and hold. And it appears that SwiftUI is just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey dropping that on the ground. So I have a new feedback for you Apple people. Now that you’ve finally solved my first
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, I would love you very much if you could solve this one too. And We’ll put a feedback number in the show
⏹️ ▶️ John really only have one? I have like seven in flight that who knows that they’re going to get responses to,
⏹️ ▶️ John but like just they did fix a lot in 26.1, but I think only one
⏹️ ▶️ John of mine got any attention.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I will say that the 20, the, the, the scrolling bug that I was talking about, it is definitely an issue for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey other apps. I’ve heard people give me feedback that they’ve had the same problem, but I don’t think it’s that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey widespread. However, this primary action on the menu thing, that is pretty widespread
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it it will affect a lot of people using SwiftUI. So I hope that Apple people hear this and say something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and do something about it because it’s driving me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bananas. Yeah, that will affect me too. I just discovered
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the menu primary action thing, which is that’s how you can give a long
⏹️ ▶️ Marco press menu onto something that otherwise has a tap action that’s something else. So like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in Overcast, the recent cells that go across the top by default of the home screen in Overcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco showing like recently played, recently played new new like those in the latest version. I added
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a thing where you could tap and hold to get a pop-up menu, which has been something that pre rewrite overcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could do that in Swift UI. I didn’t know if there was a way I couldn’t find one last summer when I was writing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, I’ve been there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this apparently has been added or at some point and I only discovered it recently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I it was great. It was wonderful. So if If that is now broken,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s very sad. But that being said, I hope Apple gets 26.1 out soon.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know they’re currently on beta four. The betas are coming pretty quickly, about once a week.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 26.1, as far as I’m concerned, cannot come quickly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough because I still am getting so many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco emails, tweets, or whatever we’re calling them, and negative reviews
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the App Store for Apple’s bugs. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cannot tell, like, look, I mean, I made the mistake this morning. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just released this big update to Overcast that did a whole bunch of like core engine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fixes, downloads, streaming, Apple Watch sync, like really, like the biggest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco areas that people have been complaining about for a year. I just did this huge upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that fixes them substantially. Like, you know, total rewrite of the downloader,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco huge fixes and improvements to the watch sync, like streaming, now you can free stream from anywhere
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, just like the very ancient version of the streamer, instead of just having to do a progressive download from the beginning.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you get a DAI splice in the middle, oh well, people hated the way I was doing it for the last six months,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I figured, okay, I’ll revert it. But now the streaming is much, like all those things are much better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I shipped this update last, I believe, Friday. And so I thought, let
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me go check my App Store reviews to see if they’re going up.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And not only are they not going up, which is very disheartening, but I’m just seeing so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco many reports of, the biggest ones for me, the biggest 26.0 bugs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that impact me are the white on white buttons when reduced transparency is enabled in dark mode, number
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one, by far. I’m getting multiple of those per day through various channels. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of a distant second, with 26.0, if you have a list
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in SwiftUI slash a table view, if you have a list that supports reordering, like my playlists,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes that will just stop reordering until you reboot the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve seen this on Overcast and it drives me batty, but I had a strong suspicion
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that that was not your fault. And so I’m glad I didn’t complain to you about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. And I don’t even know how it’s possible that like, cause you know, if you like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just force quit Overcast and then you know, relaunch it, you’ve terminated the process.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it should theoretically wipe out any, you know, last ways
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that could possibly be an Overcast bug. But no, you have to reboot the entire phone to fix that one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so obviously like, if that’s the solution, it’s not my bug.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So anyway, I cannot, I’m getting so, frankly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m getting so worn down from so much negative feedback
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so many negative reviews to the point where like I’m having a really hard time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even looking at them anymore without it ruining my day. And to have the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco additional burden of many of those things not even being my fault
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and being myself, fairly powerless to fix them also.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s just another huge burden multiplier on that.
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M5 Vision Pro follow-up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we have some feedback with regard to the M5 Vision Pro. We’re also going to talk about it a little more
⏹️ ▶️ Casey later. A reliable source has told us that the M5 Vision Pro does indeed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have the exact same displays as the M2 Vision Pro. The M5 Vision Pro renders 10%
⏹️ ▶️ Casey more pixels in the area where the user’s focusing, this is your foveated rendering, resulting in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a sharper image with crisper text and more detailed visuals. John, if anyone, you might have a little to add
⏹️ ▶️ John Nope, that was just a question we had last week. Are the displays the same? They absolutely are.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Additionally, the M5 in the Vision Pro does indeed have the memory integrity enforcement, which we talked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about, I don’t know, maybe five episodes ago, something like that. And we’ll put it on.
⏹️ ▶️ John And this is a question I had about the M5 that I didn’t see addressed anywhere, is does it have
⏹️ ▶️ John memory integrity enforcement? And the reason I was interested in the answer, aside from just like wondering if it has the same new security
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, was because we were also debating whether the CPU
⏹️ ▶️ John cores in the M5 are like derived from the ones that are in the current phone
⏹️ ▶️ John chips or last year’s phone chips. And I’m like, well, last year’s phone chips didn’t have memory integrity enforcement.
⏹️ ▶️ John Only the A19 and A19 Pro were announced with memory integrity enforcement. So if the
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 does have memory integrity enforcement, that implies that it probably has CPU
⏹️ ▶️ John cores that are derived from the A19 and the A19 Pro. Right-o.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so that then concludes that, yeah, this is from the A19.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and we got that confirmed from the same reliable choices. Basically, the question is like, are these
⏹️ ▶️ John more closely related to the A18 or A19? The answer is they are more closely related to the A19. Now, I haven’t seen
⏹️ ▶️ John like die shots or functional errors or individual breakdowns, so it remains to be seen
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly how closely related the A19 and M5 CPU cores are,
⏹️ ▶️ John but if they’re gonna be closer to one family or the other, they’re closer to the A19. I don’t know if that’s a departure
⏹️ ▶️ John from what the M4 was, or if they have been on, you know, matched up with the phone year,
⏹️ ▶️ John but either way, this is another thing in favor of the M5, that it has memory integrity enforcement, that the cores are like
⏹️ ▶️ John the A19 cores. So the M5 is a pretty good chip.
MBP charger-in-box debate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and speaking of the M5, let’s talk about the MacBook Pro. There was a lot of brouhaha
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about the fact that Apple’s not including a charger in the EU and UK.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And Nick here writes, In Ireland and France, the M5 MacBook Pro is 100, almost
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at pounds, 100 euros cheaper than its predecessor. And the adapter is 65 euros, making these new Macs 35
⏹️ ▶️ Casey euros less expensive with a comparable configuration. The same is true in each euro currency
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I checked. Germany, Italy and Spain all received a 100 euro price cut if you do not want an AC adapter and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a 35 euro price cut if you do Mac rumors, however notes that the UK model
⏹️ ▶️ Casey retains the same starting price as its predecessor
⏹️ ▶️ John There was some back and forth about whether Apple was playing price cuts on these models anyway In which case this is not a price cut because of
⏹️ ▶️ John the adapter, but it’s a price cut because of some currency thing or whatever But either way, it’s good news for people
⏹️ ▶️ John in the EU You can get a cheaper MacBook Pro So whether you want
⏹️ ▶️ John an adapter or not, and even if it doesn’t come in the box, if you add one of those to your cart, the very next screen you
⏹️ ▶️ John see shows you the adapter that they want you to buy, and you can just add that to cart immediately. So it’s not too much of
⏹️ ▶️ John a burden, even during the checkout process. But yeah, save some money. Don’t buy an adapter.
⏹️ ▶️ John But make sure you have an adapter that can charge. A guru went off on this this week of saying if you let people buy their own adapter,
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re going to try to charge their, you know, MacBook Pro with a five watt phone adapter from 10 years
⏹️ ▶️ John ago. Don’t do that. Get an adapter that is properly sized for your laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, that honestly, that’s the biggest argument against just not including it in the box.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I know it’s complicated with regulations and all this stuff, but that’s the problem. When
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you make all the chargers the same, but they’re not the same, you have negative
⏹️ ▶️ Marco outcomes like that. And I think, of course, most people are going to think any USB cable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and charger is the same. And so of course, you’re going to have this problem. including
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the box, so far, has done a really good job of minimizing this problem. Now it’s only gonna make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this problem worse.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, when they ditched it, the adapter from the iPhone box, they’re like, oh, it’s not a big deal. You can charge your phone
⏹️ ▶️ John with even the weakest adapter. You can, but it will still go way slower. If you’re still using one of those tiny five watt
⏹️ ▶️ John bricks from years and years ago, yeah, it’ll charge your phone. Unlike laptop where it just will fail to, you know, you’ll outrun it by
⏹️ ▶️ John using it, right? It will charge your phone, but you’re really not getting the best phone charging experience. Not to say
⏹️ ▶️ John you have to get the biggest, mean it’s adapter you can charge your phone as fast as possible because that’s gonna shorten your battery life if you care about
⏹️ ▶️ John that But like you should get a charger appropriately sized And again, I think
⏹️ ▶️ John if you go through Apple’s checkout process They will throw the correct adapter in your face pretty readily
⏹️ ▶️ John if you buy it from a third party or Amazon, hopefully You know the recommended products will bring it
⏹️ ▶️ John up but anyway that’s just the thing people have to learn how to deal with they have to learn what octane gas goes in their car
⏹️ ▶️ John or or what voltage their EV can charge at, and they have to know what size filters go into their
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey in the basement.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they also have to learn which chargers will charge their electronic products both adequately
⏹️ ▶️ John and as fast as they want.
LLM determinism
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. We have, or I guess I have a lot of reading to do. So with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey regard to last week’s overtime segment about Alexa Plus, we briefly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talked about, or semi-briefly talked about, non-determinism in LLMs. And Heiko Hotz
⏹️ ▶️ Casey writes, I’m an AI engineer at Google Cloud. I wanted to quickly provide some additional insight into the non-determinism
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of LLMs. As John described, a temperature of zero should theoretically always choose the most likely next token.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John was saying that engineers would never choose this setting because having the temperature greater than zero is what makes these models, quote
⏹️ ▶️ Casey unquote, magical. This is true for chat GPT, yes, because that is a chatbot application built on top
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of LLMs. Same goes for Gemini and the chatbot app. There are many different models,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey plus classifier models, plus safety guardrail models, and more that work together to create an application. That is not the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey case in enterprise applications. Also, enterprise apps are not usually made up of many different models that interact with each other.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Enterprises, including the Alexa team, don’t use these chatbot style applications. They use the underlying LLM APIs
⏹️ ▶️ Casey directly with a lot more control over the inference parameters, including temperature. And temperature equals zero is a very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey common setting for many enterprise applications. Basically, almost any app that doesn’t rely on the creativity, if you will,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of LLMs will use a temperature of zero in order to get as close to a deterministic response
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as possible. For example, when I worked with a customer who used the vision capabilities of LLMs to scan, make sense
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of, and extract key data from invoices. And you better believe that we put the temperature all the way down to zero.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey By the way, there’s an easy way for you to try this out. You can go to, and we’ll put a link in the show notes, the AI Studio at Google.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can play with this. And it provides a familiar chat interface, but the direct access to the model,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey i.e. not via a chatbot, and control over temperature and other inference parameters. You can get all that at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this AI Studio thing. So if enterprise apps
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a temperature equals 0, like Alexa and Alexa Plus most likely does,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and if temperature equals 0, they should theoretically lead to always choosing the most likely next token. So why do we
⏹️ ▶️ Casey still get non-deterministic behaviors from an LLM? The answer is hardware level non-determinism.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry, what? For efficiency reasons, request CLMs are dynamically batched with dozens of other user requests
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be processed at once. This batch is then run in parallel across thousands of GPU cores.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Here’s the problem. Floating point math on a GPU is not associative. This means
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that if you did, you know, A plus B in parentheses plus C, that doesn’t exactly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey equal A plus B plus C. Oh my God. Due
⏹️ ▶️ Casey minuscule rounding differences. Hey, I’m doing the best with what John has asked me to read. I deserve a medal for this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John gentlemen. You do.
⏹️ ▶️ John I hope that you would pronounce it that way. That’s how I read it when I see that. I say A plus B plus C
⏹️ ▶️ John versus A plus B plus C.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, to be clear, Casey, you’re doing a great job. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John reality of this is crazy.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, you know, a floating point on computers, it’s a thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So continuing with what was written, the specific order of these operations
⏹️ ▶️ Casey chart it changes based on the total batch size and server load at that instant. To be efficient, LLM providers
⏹️ ▶️ Casey dynamically batch requests in different sizes. So a given query sometimes ends up with a batch of eight requests, sometimes a batch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of 64, et cetera. So the GPU doesn’t run the same code
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a batch of eight and a batch of 64. It uses different low-level computational strategies called kernels
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are hyper-optimized for specific batch sizes and data shapes to maximize speed. And optimization for a small
⏹️ ▶️ Casey batch might sum the parallel computations in one order. For example, A plus B plus C
⏹️ ▶️ Casey plus D, while an optimization for a large batch might use a different faster reduction strategy that sums them in another order.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey For example, A plus B plus C plus D. So even at temperature zero, if two tokens have almost
⏹️ ▶️ Casey identical scores, this tiny unpredictable hardware variance can be enough to flip the winning token. And because of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way LLM’s next token prediction system works, once a token changes, the entire rest of the response diverges. A post
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from Mira Mirati’s new company, she’s the former CTO of OpenAI, dives even deeper into this. We’ll link that in the show
⏹️ ▶️ John this is fascinating. So the temperature equals zero for enterprise application, that makes sense to me. But then going on to
⏹️ ▶️ John say, and by the way, temperature equals zero doesn’t actually produce something deterministic because
⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware is perturbing it and you get these variations and you know, there’s any kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of variation in this. Then you just go off in an entirely new direction. Now that hardware problem is solvable.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like you can read this and say, oh, I know how to solve it. Just don’t do that thing in different batch sizes and don’t do, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t do different parentheses around the things. yeah, you can’t make it deterministic, but it seems like the
⏹️ ▶️ John problem is they’re not doing these batch sizes for the hell of it. They’re trying mightily to get the results fast
⏹️ ▶️ John and inexpensively by doing something that’s efficient. And these things are unavoidable.
⏹️ ▶️ John The way floating point approximations work in computers, you could make a algorithm
⏹️ ▶️ John or, you know, whatever. You could have a back end that does things in a deterministic manner at the cost of efficiency.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it’s a massive cost of efficiency. Maybe it’s not feasible, but it’s good to know that it’s there. But anyway, I found this
⏹️ ▶️ John feedback very interesting, both because of the hardware level non-determinism and the idea that the
⏹️ ▶️ John creativity that is useful in chat GPT is not desired in
⏹️ ▶️ John other applications. I feel like the downside though for that, with temperature equals zero,
⏹️ ▶️ John for something like Alexa or whatever, is that if it does the wrong
⏹️ ▶️ John thing with a given input, it’s always gonna do the wrong thing. If they
⏹️ ▶️ John make it deterministic, There is no hope of it getting better. And I’m not sure which is worse, something that
⏹️ ▶️ John like doggedly refuses to understand what you’re saying or something that sometimes understands
⏹️ ▶️ John what you’re saying and sometimes doesn’t. Anyway, thanks a lot for that feedback.
⏹️ ▶️ John I thought this was really interesting and I hope someone works on solving these problems because it looks
⏹️ ▶️ John like everybody who has tried to make their voice assistant smarter by using LLMs has not yet succeeded.
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M5 Vision Pro review
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have a first for ATP, and I’m saying that non-sarcastically, I really mean it. For the first time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever, I got some press review hardware, and I’m really excited about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Congratulations. Thank you. I have in my house an M5 Vision Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m really excited about it. And this arrived a little while ago, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there was an embargo until yesterday, so I couldn’t and shouldn’t have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talked about it until basically now. And I got to tell you, it’s really nice. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we did, John had asked me to do some tests, which I’d like you to talk about and I’ll talk about the results. Um, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the initial impressions that I got, uh, the box and unboxing process is basically the same.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, the dual knit headband or whatever they call it, or the dual knit band.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is so much nicer. It is incredible. The difference that makes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I had typically used the single knit band that goes around the back of your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey head and you tighten it in. So you’re basically squeezing your head in the front and the back with the very comfortable
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing in the back and then the light seal and guard thing or whatever they call it in the front.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this was fine for, you know, half an hour of use or something like that, but very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey quickly became not very comfortable. And Apple includes a really clunky like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or did include a really clunky behind the head and above the head Velcro situation.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I forget what that was called, with the M2 Vision Pro. And I didn’t really ever like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. And then Belkin like, I don’t know, six months ago came out with a thing that worked in concert
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the single knit band around the back. And then there was like a Velcro thing across
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the top. And that was nice. And I really liked that for the most part, but there were a couple of problems.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Number one, because of the way it mounted on the little straps on the side.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You couldn’t use the developer strap with it, and we’re gonna talk more about that in a minute.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And secondly, it was Velcro at the top, so it was a little fiddly, and I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey love that either. So the new M5 Vision Pro has this dual-knit band, and the way
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it works is there’s the same thing you’re used to in the back with a catch, and I’ll explain that in a second, and basically a duplicate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of that across the top. And the way it works is there’s only one little dial, kind of like a humongous
⏹️ ▶️ Casey digital crown that’s not very digital on the side. And like a mechanical watch, Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you, you twist it to adjust the back and then you pop it out and then twist
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it to, to adjust the top it’s really, really trick and clever and really well done. And it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey incredibly, incredibly comfortable. I went to the library this morning and booked a little study
⏹️ ▶️ Casey room. So I wasn’t out in the masses and worked with it for like 90 minutes. And it was great. It really was incredibly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey comfortable. And I think part of the reason for that is there’s actually little tungsten, like strips or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the back point in the, in the, the piece that goes behind your head to counterweight all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the weight that’s on the front of your head. And it really does even things out nicely. It’s not flawless of course, but it evens,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey evens things out pretty well. And by the way, that’s why everyone was losing their minds about the vision pro being heavier. Now
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s not actually have the, the unit itself is not actually heavier. And in fact, I did compare
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I took a little kitchen scale. So it’s not the most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey accurate thing in the world, but I weighed both the M2 and the M5 Vision Pro with everything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey off of it. I mean, literally it was just the glass hardware, no straps, no nothing, and it was the exact same weight. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyways, the new strap is really great. With regard to the visuals,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, can you explain the genuinely extremely clever test you asked me to perform?
⏹️ ▶️ John So I think this is after we knew that the screens were the same, but the whole point is that it renders 10% more
⏹️ ▶️ John pixels in the area that you’re looking at. So what does that mean? Is that discernible? Because obviously it’s,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, literally kind of fuzzy because it’s, you know, just as the foveated rendering where it renders lots of
⏹️ ▶️ John pixels, uh, where you’re looking and renders fewer elsewhere. And so if you were ever to like capture
⏹️ ▶️ John the image that is on the screens, what you would see is a bunch of blurry stuff surrounding
⏹️ ▶️ John a clear area where whoever is wearing the thing is looking. and they’re using more pixels in that
⏹️ ▶️ John area so that that is potentially clear or not. I don’t, people saying like, oh, was the M2
⏹️ ▶️ John one using non-native scaling, like a monitor that is, you know, rendering an image that is smaller than
⏹️ ▶️ John the thing and then it’s scaling it up. I’m not sure that’s the right way to think about this because
⏹️ ▶️ John obviously what the Vision Pro renders, you know, what buffer it renders before
⏹️ ▶️ John it sends it to the screen is a weird mishmash of a bunch of stuff. The areas
⏹️ ▶️ John that are out of focus clearly have less information, but the area that is in focus might actually, even on the
⏹️ ▶️ John M2 one, have more information than can fit on the pixels of the screen, and they end up scaling
⏹️ ▶️ John it down. You know, if you get like a really big image and you scale it down, you’re not losing any information.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just squishing it into the available space. So maybe it is putting more pixels in and then scaling
⏹️ ▶️ John it down, and maybe it’s above native and dead center, but exactly native when you go out a little
⏹️ ▶️ John bit, a few degrees, and then less than native when you go out, and obviously the edges are way less than native it’s all blurry.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, but the question is, so can you see that? Because I feel like tech spec wise, if this
⏹️ ▶️ John is, you know, other than it having a faster processor, which you can talk about in a bit about how that manifests, the screens
⏹️ ▶️ John are the same, but they’re using the power of the better processor to render more pixels. Does that change the experience?
⏹️ ▶️ John How are you supposed to tell this? And my idea was put an eye chart on the wall,
⏹️ ▶️ John on the virtual wall, not the actual wall. Like, so we’re not going to use pass through, but put like a, an eye chart. Like I found
⏹️ ▶️ John a PDF of an an eye chart. So there’s no, it’s vector graphics. There’s no, you know, pixels in
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Stick that on the wall somehow with vision pro magic, and then
⏹️ ▶️ John walk backwards and look at the eye chart with the M five vision pro. And then take
⏹️ ▶️ John that off, stay in the same spot in front of the M two vision pro and look at the same thing and look at like the, what’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the smallest line you can read. Uh, you know, my idea was to move back far enough so that you couldn’t read
⏹️ ▶️ John the bottom line in one, but could read it in the other. But, uh, There were some problems with that approach. Well, anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John Casey, how did that go? How did you feel that the difference was with those 10% more pixels?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I think my actual thesis about the M5 Vision Pro is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess it’s better, and I don’t mean that in a like in a jerky way. It’s just nothing that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I experienced, I can say is like night and day better, including the display. So I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did try John’s genuinely clever idea. I really don’t want to come across like I didn’t think it was a good idea. It really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a great idea. And I tried that, but the problem with the Vision Pro is that once you get more than about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey six to 10 real world feet away, so that’s like, you know, two to three meters away, it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will disappear whatever you’re walking away from, because as far as it’s concerned, it’s too far away.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I did the best I could. And I would say that like I could take maybe a half a step close.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could get a half a step closer, or I guess I should say further away actually with the M5 Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro, but we’re talking like a foot, you know, like a third of a meter. it really wasn’t that much
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of a difference. Additionally, I did do a fair, a little bit of Mac virtual display back and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey forth between the two. I did not do that today at the library, and I’ll explain why a little bit later, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did do a little bit of Mac virtual display, and here again, I thought it was better, but certainly not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey night and day better, and if I wasn’t like really, really concentrating on it, I don’t know that I really would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have noticed the difference in terms of display fidelity. Now, with that said, I will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey repeat for the 900th time, my eyes are not great. I do wear hard contact lenses because I have a weird eye disease
⏹️ ▶️ Casey called keratoconus. And the only way to get decent vision is with hard contacts. Apple explicitly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey says that the Vision Pro does not work with hard contacts. And I have so far had a perfectly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fine experience with it. But consider your source that my eyes are not great and I’m telling you, I can’t really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey see the difference. You know, this is like a person who can’t hear saying, oh, well, you know, the super duper compressed MP3
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sounds no different to me. Consider your source. With regard to the chip,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will say that there were a couple of places where I definitely noticed that it was faster. Startup is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey real fast. I feel I didn’t have the presence of mind to do a test between the two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey devices, but the M5 definitely starts up faster. And the other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing that it was very quick about was doing the persona where you scan your face and whatnot,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you generate a persona. Um, and that was also very,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very quick as compared to the M2, but in every other way, it was mostly the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey same. I can’t say enough good things about the dual knit band, which is available
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for sale and compatible with the M2 Vision Pro. It’s only a hundred dollars, which everything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Vision Pro Land, it’s like a wedding or a newborn, everything is 10 X what you think it should cost.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the, and the dual knit band at a hundred bucks is genuinely a steal. And I will almost surely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be getting one for my Vision Pro whenever I have to return this PR unit. And just a quick touch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Inside Baseball. The PR demo briefing that we got, they actually did in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Vision Pro in FaceTime on Mount
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hood, which was super duper cool. And I don’t think I can say too much about what had happened during that briefing. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was really, really neat to be a part of that rather than just looking at a Webex screen, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is how they typically do it. Any questions about that? We need to talk about the new developer strap here in a moment,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but any questions specifically about the M5 before I talk developer strap?
⏹️ ▶️ John Did you notice the 120 hertz pass through? No, not a bit. I mean, it was 100. It was up to 100 before. Now it’s up to 120.
⏹️ ▶️ John So again, not a huge difference, but. Yeah, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean, as I said, everything with the M5 Vision Pro is better, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not not like I was going to say demonstrably. That’s not the word I’m looking for, but not like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey emphatically better. It’s just a touch better. And that’s not a bad thing. And I’m glad,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know we all like to snark on Apple and snark on the Vision Pro, but I think of the three of us, I’m clearly the most enthusiastic
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. And again, every time I put this darn thing on, I am amazed by it. I really, truly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey am. I’m not blowing smoke. I really, really am. And like using it in the library today, I had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a giant computer screen, quote unquote, attached to my little dinky 14
⏹️ ▶️ Casey inch MacBook Pro. Like it is really incredible. That being said, I put myself
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a little study room So nobody would see me with my silly face computer on, but it really,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really is incredible. And so it’s such a weird product because I genuinely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really do love it. And yet I don’t use it all that often.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s so frustrating because I do love it so much, but I don’t have the occasion to put it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on all that often. And, and it’s, it’s tough because I, on the one side, I want to say, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, everyone should have one. They’re incredible, which they are incredible. I don’t know if I should say everyone should have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one and at $3,500, like, arguably not a lot of people should have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one. It’s so tough, but man, if you have the means, I highly suggest picking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one up. That’s a reference, John, because they are incredible. And, and being able to, um, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being able to see like the immersive media, admittedly, there is not a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ton of it, but there’s a lot more than there used to be. And there’s going to be more coming. They’re getting a better rhythm with that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The immersive media is great. So much of it is so great. And you know what? I’d like to actually table
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the developer strap discussion. Let’s come back around to that.
John finally “gets” a VIsion Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I realized that we had an opportunity with me having a long-term loan of this M5
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Vision Pro. So we colluded and decided that, John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey why don’t you take a long-term loan of my actual purchase paid for with my own money, M2 Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so John, as of what, Saturday or Monday, sometime recently, you now have a Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the house for the next couple of months.
⏹️ ▶️ John I have your Vision Pro. So yeah, you did have both the M2 and the M5 one for a while, but then you sent me the M2
⏹️ ▶️ John one. So this is probably the only way a Vision Pro was gonna show up in my
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco house. Is this the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only situation where anybody has ever had an extra Vision Pro? I don’t know. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of people have them in their closet, they may consider their one and only one to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro. Oh, sick burn. But anyway, to briefly interject, this is why I didn’t do as many
⏹️ ▶️ Casey side-to-side comparisons as I otherwise would have, is because I really wanted to get John a copy of it. I wanted
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get him my M2 Vision Pro as quickly as possible. So my apologies to the listeners genuinely that I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do more side-to-side comparisons, but I did enough to get the gist. And then I shipped John my,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is sort of kind of your Vision Pro. So tell me, John, what is your M2 Vision Pro experience in 2025? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John so I did do the in-store demo back when this thing first came out. And that’s all my only experience
⏹️ ▶️ John with the Vision Pro is that demo. And,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve talked about it on a past episode. You can go back and listen to that. I was very impressed by
⏹️ ▶️ John the, you know, the technology. It didn’t make me feel like I wanted to get one, but
⏹️ ▶️ John doing the demo made the product much more attractive to me
⏹️ ▶️ John than it was before doing the demo. So in that respect, the demo was a plus for the product. Now having one in
⏹️ ▶️ John the actual house with me and being able to use it to do real things gives me some more ideas about
⏹️ ▶️ John what it’s like to actually own and use one of these things. So just to comment on the dual knit band, I do have
⏹️ ▶️ John a dual knit band with this one as well. And I’ll echo Casey’s sentiment. So I only wore it
⏹️ ▶️ John for a half an hour in the demo when it was with the solo band thing. And even just in that half
⏹️ ▶️ John an hour demo, it was uncomfortable. Because with the solo knit, it’s just on the back of your head.
⏹️ ▶️ John So the only way it has to keep that thing on your face is to press it against your face. To press
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey against your forehead, your cheeks,
⏹️ ▶️ John because that’s the only place the band is. The band is pulling it towards you. There’s one band in the back.
⏹️ ▶️ John And if you don’t pull it hard enough, it will start to slide down your nose or whatever. And if you pull it too hard, you get a big red mark
⏹️ ▶️ John on your forehead. The dual-knit band, as Casey pointed out, is really smart
⏹️ ▶️ John in the way it works in that, yes, it’s got a band on top and on the back. But the other thing to know about this is that
⏹️ ▶️ John the way the band attaches to the Vision Pro is through a rigid, vertical piece of
⏹️ ▶️ John metal thing. So the band can’t twist on the Vision Pro. Like the band is fixed
⏹️ ▶️ John where it is. And this allows those tungsten weights that Casey mentioned that are in the back of the band. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, why are you putting more weight into the Vision Pro? What the heck is that weight even doing? The way it acts as a counterbalance
⏹️ ▶️ John is because the top strap acts as kind of like a fulcrum, like on a seesaw. And so the
⏹️ ▶️ John weight on the back causes the thing on the front of your face to tilt up, so it doesn’t press against
⏹️ ▶️ John your cheeks as much. And so you don’t have to pull it against your face so much. There’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the adjustment of like the top versus the back strap. I don’t know why they just didn’t do one dial on one side, one dial on the
⏹️ ▶️ John other, but it is very clever to have one dial on one side with the pullout and back end thing. But you can adjust the top thing
⏹️ ▶️ John to lift the glasses up so they’re not squishing your cheeks. And then you can loosen the back one so it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John pushing the thing against your face. So much more comfortable. Like this band is, I never tried
⏹️ ▶️ John any of the hacks with the multiple bands, but this is a really well-realized band for, is it
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly the same price as the Solo One is slash was? I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey think, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. Not that, you know, the product has a lot of problems that we talked
⏹️ ▶️ John about at length, But the problem of a quick to put on, easy to
⏹️ ▶️ John adjust, comfortable strap, I feel like this solves the problem amazingly well. And the reason I say that
⏹️ ▶️ John is because this thing is heavy. I know I wore it for a half an hour demo, but when you actually have the thing
⏹️ ▶️ John in your house and use it for more than a half an hour, the weight becomes way more
⏹️ ▶️ John apparent. And you hear people talk about it and they’re like, oh, it’s heavy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There’s nothing like wearing
⏹️ ▶️ John it on your face for two hours to be like, okay, this thing is heavy. Even with the amazing new strap, This thing is
⏹️ ▶️ John heavy. No, they would have made it lighter if they could have. Maybe if they didn’t make the frame out of the metal, maybe it didn’t have
⏹️ ▶️ John glass in the front or whatever. I continue to be sad about the delay slash possible cancellation of the
⏹️ ▶️ John lighter version of this, because it really needs to be lighter. And yes, by the way, we all know that Apple, that Samsung just announced their
⏹️ ▶️ John Vision Pro competitor for like 1800 bucks with the same resolution screens and yada yada, I haven’t read too much about it,
⏹️ ▶️ John but just wanted to put that out there. We know that exists. Apple should be feeling the heat because
⏹️ ▶️ John they haven’t really updated the products in two years, except for to add an M5 to it. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John I did try Mac virtual display, which is the thing I asked to do it during the demo, but they didn’t let me because they have sort of a canned demo in the store.
⏹️ ▶️ John But now I’ve got it at home. I’m like, oh, I had it on in front of my Mac. And I’m like, oh, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna probably have to go over to one of the computers because surely this doesn’t work with Intel. It does. Are you surprised?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I was like, what the hell? Because, you know, Mac virtual display, it’s like, oh, it’s that one. Anyway, I did match
⏹️ ▶️ John virtual display with my Pro Display XDR. And what Mac virtual display does, if I had to sum
⏹️ ▶️ John it up in one sentence, is it un-retinas my display.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I have a huge
⏹️ ▶️ John expensive retina display and it’s like, but what if your display wasn’t retina? Would you like that? And the answer is no,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not like that. It literally, it like, I
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, it’s amazing that it works. And if you’re on a train or an airplane seat or in some confined
⏹️ ▶️ John place where you can’t have, or on the road and you can’t have a Pro Display XDR, it’s better than
⏹️ ▶️ John looking at a tiny laptop screen. But if you are near your computer, you
⏹️ ▶️ John do not wanna do Mac virtual display. Cause I could like, it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John the actual display is so much sharper than virtual display. And maybe it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the resolution of the screens. We talked about this, about the pixels per degree and everything and how it’s not, it doesn’t match up with writing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like it’s just a technical limitation. It’s not the ideal application of this to use
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac virtual display with your computer right in front of you. it’s better to take the headset off and look at your screen because
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s much better. So I was not a fan of Mac virtual display. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Can I just say, I’m so glad that you had that impression because I had that same impression
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everyone last year told me like, it looks great to me, it looks perfectly sharp to me. I’m like, it does
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, so like I said, when you talked about it, the only demo I got in the store was, let’s use like
⏹️ ▶️ John native Safari inside Vision Pro. And that I think is reasonable, But the problem with Mac virtual display
⏹️ ▶️ John is I can see the real display like right there. It’s the A B comparison is real easy.
⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s what it looks like inside the headset. Here’s what it looks like outside. This is supposed to be the same screen and the same resolution.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s a big difference. It’s not like it’s unreadable. I think it’s fine. Like I’ve used non-retina screens for my
⏹️ ▶️ John entire life until very recently. It’s fine. Like it’s totally usable. It’s good. Like it’s amazing that it works. It’s cool that it curves
⏹️ ▶️ John around you. Like everything about it is great. But given the choice, I’d rather look at the actual screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sure. I mean, given a choice, I would also rather look at an actual screen, but I didn’t find it near in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and don’t find it near as egregious as the two of you seem to. But again, I mean, I, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John considered here’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the thing, like it’s not, it’s not obvious that you should prefer the real thing because if it was just as sharp,
⏹️ ▶️ John I might prefer the virtual thing because it’s so much more flexible. You can put it wherever you want. You can make it any size. It’s subtly curves
⏹️ ▶️ John around you. I can imagine a thing where you could adjust the curvature and like, like there, there are potential advantages
⏹️ ▶️ John for having a display in a virtual world than having a physical one. It’s just that the displays inside the Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t currently have enough pixel density to compete with an actual XDR. Which again,
⏹️ ▶️ John we mathed out back when this thing first came out, but I’m just reiterating that I’ve experienced it in person and
⏹️ ▶️ John it is, the math bears out in real life. One of the things I was surprised about,
⏹️ ▶️ John again, having used it over a long period of time in various parts of my house, because I went and put widgets on all my walls
⏹️ ▶️ John and I set up applications in different rooms, I was walking between them, I’m sitting on my couch playing with them,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m really trying to use this thing in every possible way that you can use it. I was surprised at something I did not
⏹️ ▶️ John notice at all during the demo, which is instability and misalignment
⏹️ ▶️ John in the virtual world. I was, when I did the demo, I was amazed at how solid
⏹️ ▶️ John everything was. It was just really, it just did an amazing job of making things look like they were fixed
⏹️ ▶️ John in space in front of you. and having one in the house, it still does that. But very
⏹️ ▶️ John often when I go from one thing to another, like I, you know, for example, bringing up
⏹️ ▶️ John the whatever they call it, the home screen, the thing where it shows all the app icons or whatever, that
⏹️ ▶️ John goes away sometimes. Like you can make that go away and then you can call it back to you. And I would make it go away and I would
⏹️ ▶️ John call it back to me. And when I call it back, I’m like, is that tilted
⏹️ ▶️ John to the right a little bit?
⏹️ ▶️ John Am I tilting my head? I’m I’m a very visual person. One
⏹️ ▶️ John of my, uh, if you want to read my old hypercritical post, but like a lot of my sort of artistic
⏹️ ▶️ John experience of like doing fine arts and stuff as a kid, um, is
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of built on my, I was going to say hypersensitivity, but it’s the right word. How my hypersensitivity
⏹️ ▶️ John to the visual, I don’t know, the visual
⏹️ ▶️ John size and shape and alignment of things. If something is not centered, I can tell if something is slightly crooked.
⏹️ ▶️ John I can tell I’m very sensitive to that. I can imagine a person who is not as sensitive, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John or has average sensitivity to this, not noticing these things, but for me, if something that I was put in one place
⏹️ ▶️ John and I look at it again, and it’s like slightly, or like the right side of it
⏹️ ▶️ John is a little bit closer to me than the left side of it. Even though before it was perfectly square on with me, or
⏹️ ▶️ John if the top right is lower down than the top left slightly, and it wasn’t like that before,
⏹️ ▶️ John I will notice. And I do notice, and there’s no way in Vision Pro to fix that. You can
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of, with the windows, if it’s like closer to you, you can kind of shove it back and tilt it around, but I’m like, but why do I have to make these
⏹️ ▶️ John adjustments? The answer is you shouldn’t make those adjustments. They should just not bother you, but they do bother me. So that’s,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m assuming that’s a limitation and a little bit of drift. I noticed it was also with the widgets that I stuck on the wall. Like I put a clock
⏹️ ▶️ John on a wall and a picture frame on a wall. And like when I go over and look at them later,
⏹️ ▶️ John they’d be like a half inch off the wall. And to Vision Pro’s credit, it would figure out that they’re half an inch off the wall and it would
⏹️ ▶️ John animate them so they’re stuck against the wall again. But it’s like, I saw that, you lost track a little bit. I mean, it’s mind
⏹️ ▶️ John boggling that it does this at all. I don’t even know how it does this. This is something I haven’t really heard a lot of people talk about
⏹️ ▶️ John it. But like, think about like, I put like a weather widget
⏹️ ▶️ John in my dining room and then I walk into my living room where I have a clock widget. I can walk from the living room to the dining room
⏹️ ▶️ John and the weather widget is still on the wall in there. How the hell does it do that? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would also love to know because it’s bananas.
⏹️ ▶️ John Is it making a 3D model of my entire house and depth mapping every wall and figuring out where they, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it boggles, is it using GPS? Is it using distance from Wi-Fi things? Like, I don’t even know how it does that at all.
⏹️ ▶️ John And yet here I am complaining that when I walk with this thing from one room to the other and look at the weather widget, it is a centimeter off
⏹️ ▶️ John until it adjusts itself. Yeah. I’m being picky,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but. Very quickly, in order to adjust the, how can I verbalize
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this? So if you think about a window, a twisting on a vertical
⏹️ ▶️ Casey axis in the center of the window, right? So you want to take the left side and bring it closer to you while
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the right side goes further away from you. If you grab the bar on the bottom that you use to just move the window in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 3D space and tilt your head left and right, so you’re taking the crown of your head and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey making it go toward your left shoulder, toward your right shoulder, if memory serves, that will cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the window that you’re holding to spin across the vertical
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John axis. I’ll have to try that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not stellar, but it’s not obvious that that’s something you can
⏹️ ▶️ John do. Yeah, I’d be looking for anything. Because you can’t actually just like, what I would usually do is I would shove it far away from me and then
⏹️ ▶️ John bring it back again and get it square. But what you’re saying is there’s an actual way to do this. I’ll have to try that.
⏹️ ▶️ John And speaking of windows, me being a big window management person, I was looking for and failing to
⏹️ ▶️ John find something to help me with app switching and window management. Because I’d have a lot of things open at once and they’d
⏹️ ▶️ John be sort of vertically stacked on top of each other. and I wouldn’t want them to be stacked in that way. And yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I could take the ones I don’t want and chuck them off to the side, but I didn’t want them off to the side. I still wanted them to be in front of me. I just wanted to hide them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Whereas the hide function, and that doesn’t seem to exist, which I can kind of understand but it’s how would you bring them back? Like there’s reasons
⏹️ ▶️ John for it. But yeah, the window and app management, or even if they are stacked, I’m just like, I just want to switch
⏹️ ▶️ John to the app in the back. Well, I can look at the little part of this pointing out and then tap my fingers together and
⏹️ ▶️ John bring it to the front. But like sometimes it’s difficult to pull that off well. I was looking
⏹️ ▶️ John for some kind of like hand wavy app switcher. Like they should, you know, like three finger swipe, they should have
⏹️ ▶️ John Tom Cruise minority port hand wave to the side to cycle through the current application or
⏹️ ▶️ John hide it or whatever, but they don’t. So that’s something that I missed. And then of course, if you get a Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John in the house, as I think one of you mentioned in a very recent episode, the first
⏹️ ▶️ John and most important thing you do with it is demo it to other people. Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. So I did
⏹️ ▶️ John that. My wife’s the only one here now. I gave her a demo.
⏹️ ▶️ John I, you know, I’m talking about the M2 Vision Pro in 2025. This is old news, I know, but it’s not old news for me. But anyway, you’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John heard people complain that when they demo, it’s hard to demo things because when you try to get somebody to
⏹️ ▶️ John watch video and you’re mirroring what they see on like your laptop screen or something, it blacks
⏹️ ▶️ John out because of stupid copyright stuff, which- It’s the worst.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s so frustrating.
⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s the thing that I didn’t fully understand or have forgotten when
⏹️ ▶️ John you do that. And by the way, the reason we’re mirroring what they see on the screen, because otherwise try explaining, it’s like playing charades,
⏹️ ▶️ John try explaining to somebody who’s never used Vision Pro what they’re supposed to do without being able to see what they’re seeing. I’d
⏹️ ▶️ John only use it for like a day before I gave my wife a demo. So it’s not like I’ve memorized every pixel that’s gonna be on the screen, but it really
⏹️ ▶️ John is like, describe to me what you see. It’s like trying to do tech support over the phone with somebody because they can
⏹️ ▶️ John see stuff, but you can’t see it. So that’s why Apple provides this great feature where you can see a version of what
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re seeing on your laptop screen or whatever. That’s really helpful, because then you can see what they’re seeing,
⏹️ ▶️ John although you also see their foveated rendering, so a lot of times it’s blurry. You’re like, oh, look over there, look over there. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John as soon as you bring them to like, oh, you go to the TV app, go to this thing, you know, run the, play this immersive
⏹️ ▶️ John demo. You can’t see it on your laptop screen. Your laptop screen goes black because it’s immersive video, it goes around everything.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which that is, that is totally fine. And I’m not that aggrieved by that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s stupid, but okay.
⏹️ ▶️ John inside the headset, they only see blackness too, but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it still plays the video. So they hear
⏹️ ▶️ John the sound. They’re like, it took me a while to even realize it’s just like, am I supposed to be seeing something? I’m like, I could hear
⏹️ ▶️ John the audio playing because she didn’t have headphones, she had to use the speakers and the straps. And she’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, I’m supposed to be seeing something? Like, she just sees blackness, but it tries to play it anyway. That
⏹️ ▶️ John is insane. Like I get that you can’t show it on two screens. It wants to show it on one. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John as we said in the past, when we talked about this, Apple, it’s your own video. Like break
⏹️ ▶️ John the law, Apple. This is a rare case where
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, just break the law. Civil disobedience. Literally implement this thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that violates the HGCP standard. Break the law. See if somebody comes for you.
⏹️ ▶️ John No one’s gonna care because nobody has Vision Pros. No one is pirating things by mirroring the foveated
⏹️ ▶️ John rendering of a Vision Pro on a laptop and then screen recording it. We have way better ways to pirate things. Nobody would want
⏹️ ▶️ John that. Just break the law, right? And see if somebody comes for you. You’ve got so much money.
⏹️ ▶️ John I believe you could defend this lawsuit. Maybe we’ll change the HCCP standard. Apple, you need
⏹️ ▶️ John to break the law because this is so stupid.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I mean, I, again, I can, I can forgive not showing what the person is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seeing, not showing the video the person is seeing on the mirror. Like if I typically do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this with an iPad, you can absolutely do with a laptop. If the iPad or laptop or what have you, isn’t showing the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey video that a person is seeing and just showing a black box. Fine. It’s a little annoying, but fine. Understandable. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the fact that they black out what’s in the Vision Pro is utterly bananas to me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And like I said, civil disobedience, you break the law on purpose and you accept the punishment
⏹️ ▶️ John for breaking the law as a way to highlight the injustice of the law and the stupidity
⏹️ ▶️ John and HTCP or whatever law contract, whatever it is, not a law, whatever it is like that standard is so
⏹️ ▶️ John stupid and has been causing such harm to the entire ecosystem for years.
⏹️ ▶️ John And here it is. is not the vision pro doesn’t need it. It’s got enough problems of its own on top of that to have to deal with
⏹️ ▶️ John HTCP copyright standard crap. It’s so stupid. Also,
⏹️ ▶️ John for some reason, I don’t even know if this is a bug, but like when changing environments, it would black out
⏹️ ▶️ John both of our screens as well. What the hell? Environments not like I remember that copyrighted video. This might have just
⏹️ ▶️ John been a bug, but I was like, go to environments and put on the new environment and dial it up in the crown and black everything
⏹️ ▶️ John out for both of us again. The other experience she had with Vision Pro, first of all, she wasn’t that
⏹️ ▶️ John impressed by, the things that impressed me didn’t impress her about the visuals and everything, fine. She found
⏹️ ▶️ John dealing with the UI very frustrating. Part of that was me trying to explain to her what to do when I couldn’t see what she
⏹️ ▶️ John was seeing, which is just gonna be frustrating no matter what, it’s frustrating for both of us. But part of it was
⏹️ ▶️ John she just didn’t feel like, she took to it very well, she could do most things very quickly, she’s pretty technically
⏹️ ▶️ John savvy, but she found sort of the limitations of that world in terms of managing the windows and things
⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, and the typical vision pro thing that I think we’ve all discussed before on this thing that
⏹️ ▶️ John I even saw in the demo, which is you look at a thing with your eyes, you pinch with your fingers to activate it.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s human nature that as soon as you look at with your eyes and decide to pinch, you then move
⏹️ ▶️ John your eyes off to something else. But your fingers haven’t pinched yet. You’ve sent the thought down for them to pinch like a
⏹️ ▶️ John brontosaurus telling it to move its tail, right? But the signal takes a while to go down there. Meanwhile,
⏹️ ▶️ John your eyes have moved to something else on the screen. And so you end up not pinching the thing you thought you were pinching or not pinching
⏹️ ▶️ John anything at all. And it takes some practice in the vision pro to remember, stare at it until the
⏹️ ▶️ John pinch completes, then look somewhere else. And that can be frustrating for new users as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, she was not impressed and found the UI frustrating and didn’t understand why people would want to have this thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, and you know, that’s not a, that’s not a new complaint. I did use it as a replacement for my iPad in the bed.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hold up. Was she, was, was she impressed at all by the immersive stuff or no? No. Well, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey surprising to me because I have not given a demo to someone that hasn’t at least said,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Holy smokes, that’s cool. You know, the main, sometimes, sometimes followed up by, Oh, I would never want one of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey these, but immediately, Holy smokes, that’s cool.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was super impressed by it. Maybe go back and listen to that episode. I’m still very impressed by it. I think it’s great. She was not impressed.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, so I said, well, maybe this will bend. Maybe one of the benefits will be cause I’m, you know, again, I watch TV
⏹️ ▶️ John on my iPad in bed. Very often she’s asleep next to me. On the rare occasions that she can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John get to sleep, she blames it on my iPad and I have to put it away. But it’s nothing to do with my iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just to do with whatever is keeping her awake because most nights she goes to sleep instantly and is snoring
⏹️ ▶️ John away next to me while I watch stuff on my iPad. But anyway, what if I could watch TV in my bed
⏹️ ▶️ John without having any light coming out using the Vision Pro? So I tried that. Obviously
⏹️ ▶️ John not ideal to have that big thing, you know, in bed and have to find a place for it when
⏹️ ▶️ John you take it off and you’re kind of, you know, you’re really closing yourself off from your partner when you have a big
⏹️ ▶️ John headset on, but if she’s asleep anyway, it’s not that big of a deal. So I tried it. The various
⏹️ ▶️ John theater modes where you can have it in like a movie theater, incorporate your thing that you’re watching
⏹️ ▶️ John into the environment. So it could be floating over a mountain lake and have it reflecting in the lake, or you could just have it as
⏹️ ▶️ John a window in and out of an environment, lots of options there. And I was able to find a whole bunch of
⏹️ ▶️ John different options that worked well for me laying in my bed, propped up against the pillow watching video.
⏹️ ▶️ John One of the fun things was that I could put my knees up. So they were quote unquote blocking the screen, but of course they weren’t
⏹️ ▶️ John blocking the screen. The screen just draws right over top of them, which was amazing. Something I can’t do when I
⏹️ ▶️ John watch TV and then laying down on the couch and put my knees up. And if I block the TV, you know what I mean? No, don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John worry about that in Vision Pro. Your knees aren’t real. It was weird that I could still see my hands a lot of the time.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was like burying my hands in the cover. So I wouldn’t see my little like, you know, composited outline
⏹️ ▶️ John hands. because it’s always trying to keep track of where your hands are. It’s like, I don’t wanna see my hands, I’m just watching the
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. I do think that watching the video that way, as cool as it is, one of
⏹️ ▶️ John the sort of known issues with the Vision Pro is that they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John like, I don’t know what these come from, but they are a thing. Some kind of internal reflection
⏹️ ▶️ John thing is going on in there. I don’t know if these are reflections inside the lenses, if this is light bouncing
⏹️ ▶️ John off parts of the inside of the case, but if you’re watching video and there’s bright stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John on the screen, very often you will see a faint ghostly echo of that bright stuff floating
⏹️ ▶️ John in your field of vision kind of around the middle. And whatever causes that, they
⏹️ ▶️ John need to fix it. Because as far as I’m concerned watching, I watched many hours of video on this
⏹️ ▶️ John thing so far. That is the biggest downside versus me watching on my iPad. It’s not even
⏹️ ▶️ John the resolution. My iPad is sharper than this is because I hold it real close to my face and it’s high resolution and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John OLED and it’s amazing. These screens are also amazing. I see that they’re lower resolution, but it doesn’t matter when you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John watching like people on a screen, like you’re not looking at like a retina display. For people, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John fine. Like I recognize that it’s lower res, but also it has the advantage of being huge and my knees
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t block it and like there’s other advantages to it. But those, whatever they are, light
⏹️ ▶️ John up ghost artifacts, things, whatever is causing those, they make the experience of watching
⏹️ ▶️ John video worse for me than watching on my iPad. It’s not even what I thought it would be, like big heavy thing, my face
⏹️ ▶️ John getting hot, all that other stuff, because with the new strap, it actually is pretty comfortable and I feel like it’s a wash.
⏹️ ▶️ John If I’m laying in bed, I’m willing to deal with all those things. It’s that, it’s those little
⏹️ ▶️ John ghostly things. And again, I don’t know where they come from. I imagine they’re internal reflections in the lenses or something. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John sure if they were easy to solve, Apple would have solved them. I’m using contact lenses
⏹️ ▶️ John in the Vision Pro because I don’t have lens inserts for them. So it’s not reflections in my glasses. I’m wearing my contact lenses and
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have hard contact lenses, they’re regular ones. So, and Marco has said that he sees He’s saying ghostly
⏹️ ▶️ John things even when he’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John glasses or corrective stuff. So this is a thing and I don’t know where it comes from and I wonder if Samsung’s fixed
⏹️ ▶️ John it as well. But I was surprised to see that that was the thing that made me think that the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John is a better choice than the Vision Pro for watching. Anyway, I’m keeping
⏹️ ▶️ John this thing as long as Casey’s keeping his review unit. So whenever he wants his thing back, I’ll send it back to
⏹️ ▶️ John him and he’ll send his review unit back. So I’ll have this thing for a while and I hope I’ll find new uses
⏹️ ▶️ John for it and other things to do with it.
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ATP goes to Mount Hood
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s possibly an even larger miracle than you receiving even a secondhand
⏹️ ▶️ Casey borrowed Vision Pro. And that is that we found a reason and a way to get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco to strap his Vision Pro to his face. And the three of us did a like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey almost hour long spatial FaceTime call, which I think either
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, you had never done one and Marco, you either hadn’t or hadn’t done one in forever. Is that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so we did that and I have spoken, I think in the past about how cool I think this is. And for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a while there, Jason and Steven and Mike and James and I had a standing and actually Dan Morin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as well for a while had a standing by where every two weeks appointment that we would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey inevitably always blow off where we would do one of these spatial calls. But we only ended
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up or I only ended up connecting on like five of them over the span of a year or two. But for me,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought that that was the closest I, the vibe of it, the vibe of it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the feel of it was as close as I’ve gotten to hanging out with people that are far away
⏹️ ▶️ Casey without actually hanging out with the people that are far away. And I’m curious, and since John and I have been
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talking a lot, perhaps Marco, you can kick us off, but I’m curious what you thought of that. I also compelled Marco and John to play,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what is this game, something, I forget what the name of the app is. Game Room? Game Room, thank you. like a legally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey distinct version of Battleship in game room against each other while I was spectating. And I’m curious to hear,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, what did you think of the spatial FaceTime and what did you think of game room?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Um, well, the first thing you notice with the spatial FaceTime is like, so what, what Casey made
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me do was install iOS or vision OS 26, and then remake
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my persona because the personas got a lot better in OS 26. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I did that I, I made my whole self again, re-scanned my face.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the resulting persona actually does look a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like me. But like immediately upon entering, John was of course immediately saying,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, it was like your neck has weird Botox or something like it. Like it, it looks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot like the person it is.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like if you hired a stuntman to double for Marco to do the stunts, this is of the stuntman I look like.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, and like, it’s almost across the Uncanny Valley, but it’s definitely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the Uncanny Valley. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s the thing about the personas. Like, when I saw like the, you know, not having one, I would just see the pictures.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, here’s what they look like, and here’s the improved versions. Like, oh, the improved ones are way better. But like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s different when you’re looking at a persona of a person that you don’t know. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John Versus when I see Marco’s persona, I know what Marco looks like. someone that you’ve seen for a
⏹️ ▶️ John long time in person, you are, again, hypersensitive to any minor,
⏹️ ▶️ John like humans are, you know, evolutionarily selected to be good at
⏹️ ▶️ John recognizing faces. That’s why the uncanny valley exists, because if it’s like, it’s almost real, but not quite,
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks scary, and something is wrong with it. And so if you don’t know Marco, and you saw his
⏹️ ▶️ John persona, you’re like, that’s amazing. I would be convinced that it’s him. But if you know Marco, there’s no way in hell you would be convinced it’s him,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey because it doesn’t look like him, it’s so close, but not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey quite. I don’t agree. I think it looks pretty good. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s that far off.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree with Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yours was Casey’s was closer than yours, but they got your whole bottom part of your face wrong. If you were wearing
⏹️ ▶️ John a Batman mask, it wouldn’t even look like you because you’d only see the bottom of your face coming out of the mask. Like and
⏹️ ▶️ John it looked great. It looked amazing. It looked a little bit like, you know, robotic with the mouth things, but
⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s what it does is amazing. But I’m you know, I
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no way you could fool me into thinking that was Marco, I’d always know it’s his persona and same thing with Casey, but Casey
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree that you would always know it’s a persona, but I, I really think that what Marco said a few minutes ago,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me, I feel like most personas that I’ve interacted with are on the other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey side of the uncanny Valley. Now there may be there, or maybe they’re on the edge of it, you know, so they’re like teeter tottering,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’ll wave in their arms, if you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John will, right? It looks better
⏹️ ▶️ John still than in motion. Once it starts moving, you’re like, okay, you’re a little bit back in the Valley.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is, that is true. But I really do think not only is it amazing, But I do think it is a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasonably good facsimile of your faces until the movement. The movement is a little
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not great to your point, but in general, I think that they’re astonishingly good facsimiles
⏹️ ▶️ John What it has going for it is it is higher fidelity than your typical FaceTime video.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because FaceTime video is compressed and it’s blurry. And if there’s a hitch in the network, like, you know, but these
⏹️ ▶️ John things are always full res because they’re being rendered locally, essentially, or I’m assuming they’re being rented locally.
⏹️ ▶️ John So and they fit into the world. Like it’s like an in-engine cutscenes in games. It
⏹️ ▶️ John fits in with the rest of the world. Like I’m not saying they’re bad. They’re amazing and they accomplish their job very
⏹️ ▶️ John well. But I was surprised that because I had not experienced this with anybody that I knew.
⏹️ ▶️ John I had just seen still images, sometimes with people that I knew and still images of strangers. But being in that environment
⏹️ ▶️ John with people that I know what their actual face looks like, I was startled by how much I decided that
⏹️ ▶️ John this is not Marco. this is a Marco stuntman puppet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and like, and most like every part of the kind of like simulated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reality of this, like, first of all, like everything has a combination
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of incredible technical achievement. And also,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s kind of wrong. Like, and that’s like, like we were saying earlier, like everything the Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro does, it is just a stunning, remarkable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco technical achievement. Like to do what it does in like the basics of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what it does, put this helmet on your face that is opaque and has screens in it and make it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco look like you can see through it into the room. That alone and how well it does that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is remarkable. And that was so much engineering and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much sophistication and so much work to get that to be as good as it is. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the result is you put it on, you’re like, ah, it’s kind of a crappy view of my room. It’s a little bit laggy and smeary and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gives me a little bit motion sickness.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And that’s mostly limited by the camera hardware, which is a shame, but you know, it’s already 30, 100 bucks. So what do you want?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And like, okay, so you get into the world and every step of the way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was, I was like, like oh my god this does look a lot like me and oh wow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that does look a lot like the two of you but not quite and it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again once you think about what it is doing it is as if there is a camera
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my face but there is not a camera on my face there are parts of my face that the sensors can’t even see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they just have to kind of guess like what like my mouth is doing what are what are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my cheeks doing like it can see some of that like from the sensors inside but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a lot of it it has to guess what are my shoulders doing it can see some of that but not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all that like and it does all of that with remarkable quality but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again the result is it’s kind of off it’s kind of it’s kind of wrong
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I feel like this is the story of the entire vision Pro like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and of like the the hardware and capabilities I got to the content a second but like the hardware and capability side of the entire
⏹️ ▶️ Marco vision pro is like remarkable technical achievement to result
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in something that is kind of cool but you’re like but I don’t really want to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use this or do this but it’s it’s amazing that I can do this but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the overall product and the overall experience to the customer is hmm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is kind of weird or this is kind of crappy or this is kind of limited and and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly like you know even just the basics of it. This is the longest I’d used the Vision Pro in probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco six months at least, maybe a year. So I kind of got like a fresh look on it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you know some of the newer stuff that it can do. I can see why people are really excited
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about this but it’s almost like everything the Vision Pro does, every single thing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the content, the virtual FaceTime things, the games,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every single thing, it reminded me of there was like some like you know popular video that went around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about a month ago of a guy who would ask chat GPT count to a million
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it was this funny video because chat GPT this is in voice mode and it GPT kept saying like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay one two and so on and I would just keep going like this and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he’s like no no don’t don’t tell me what you would do just actually do it count to a million okay four five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco six and it would go on like this and the guy’s like no no you keep stop stopping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just keep going and no matter what the guy did it would just be like well it would be like seven
⏹️ ▶️ Marco eight nine like that that is how every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco single thing in the vision Pro feels every single I know this is a leap bear with me every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco single thing I have ever done in the vision Pro every bit of content every application
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every experience every single thing has been like well this is the kind of thing you could do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the Vision Pro. It’s okay, so do it. Oh, well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay, well, it would go kind of like this. This is kind of how you would have a meeting in the Vision Pro. Or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the kind of TV show that we could make for the Vision Pro. Okay,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it. Here’s some more demos of here’s some more things you could do in the Vision Pro. Here is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an example of what sports could be like in the Vision Pro. Here’s an example of what this adventure series
⏹️ ▶️ Marco might be like in a Vision Pro. Here’s an example of what a concert could be in the Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, well where is it? We’re now like two years in.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Where is it? Where is all this stuff? Where is the application? What happens?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What is it like to actually follow through and actually do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of these things? And so far, every single thing I’ve done, even like, you know, I’m sure I was talking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a moment about like we played a board game, we played Battleship together. And it was like, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is an interesting demo of an experience. I’m never going to do it again, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay, this is an example of the kind of thing I could do in the future. I’m not going to, of course, but I could.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like, ugh, where is the thing? It seemed like we’re always heading towards the thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We can see the thing off in the future, maybe potential things of how this might go,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this might be amazing in the future. Okay, but When
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and what do you do with the product now as it exists in the present that was bought with present
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or past money? With this present ecosystem and all this past engineering work like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay What do we do with this now and it seems like everyone is looking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so far forward so far into the distance including Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that No one is kind of looking at the present and realizing hmm And we don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually want to do any of these things in the present
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more than like once as a demo.
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s stuff in there that’s not demo where like we did some of the things like looking at pictures together. That’s a fully realized thing that I
⏹️ ▶️ John wish I could do better in FaceTime on the phone and the iPad. I know you can do it in FaceTime on the phone and the iPad, but it’s such
⏹️ ▶️ John a pain because the interface is so bad. But getting everybody in a virtual space and looking at photos together was real
⏹️ ▶️ John easy. I was, I’m a first timer doing it and maybe Casey has some experience with it, but like It was really easy to
⏹️ ▶️ John take a bunch of pictures or videos or whatever and show them to people. It’s very often when I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John doing FaceTime to family, I want to show pictures or other things. And this
⏹️ ▶️ John makes it easy and way nicer because you’re all sitting together. It puts you like sort of,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you’re all facing the screen. You can move the screen, you can resize it. You can pick what you want to show on it. You can play video,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can take a panorama and wrap it around everybody. That’s a fully realized experience. Like as someone in the chat room said
⏹️ ▶️ John when you were complaining about the sort of demo nature of it, that it’s like, that’s not fair. The
⏹️ ▶️ John Vision Pro is only about 75% demo. Which is true, like there are fully realized
⏹️ ▶️ John experiences in there for a lot of basic things. Mac virtual display, I think is a fully realized experience for what it is.
⏹️ ▶️ John It, you know, it does, it lets you see and control your Mac completely. It just, you know, there’s just not enough
⏹️ ▶️ John resolution on the screen for it to look like retina. But other than that, it does that thing. A lot of their apps are like that. I feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like the virtual space is like that. The games, there are a bunch of games,
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe not enough, but there are some of them and those are, it’s not just this is what it would be like, this is an actual game.
⏹️ ▶️ John Watching movies, I think is a fairly fully realized experience with lots of different options. Even before you get into third party
⏹️ ▶️ John apps like, Theater. Atomos Segura’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey television app, which I
⏹️ ▶️ John tried out, that lets you have like 3D models of televisions. Even before you get into that realm, just the built-in
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff for watching video and movies, like 2D movies or quote unquote 3D movies, like Avatar or
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, that’s fully realized and it works. But yeah, there is a lot of potential that is not realized
⏹️ ▶️ John because the ecosystem has not built up around it and because there’s not enough content for it, as we’ve said. But
⏹️ ▶️ John for the things that it does do, I think it does offer a complete implementation of those things.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I also wanted to point out that when you do the spatial FaceTime thing, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seated in some sort of like circle-ish thing. Are you seated?
⏹️ ▶️ John You have no lower torso, it’s hard to say.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s fair. But you appear to be maybe seated. And if one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey person stands up, they will raise up in the virtual space. You can point with your hands, because your hands exist in the virtual
⏹️ ▶️ Casey space. But as you were saying a moment ago, what’s really cool about the spatial face time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that they kind of seat you in a circle-ish pattern. And you’re maybe seated. It’s kind of ambiguous,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because you don’t have the lower half. But if one of us stands up in the real world, that person’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey spatial avatar will braise up in the spatial world, which is really neat. And you can point and whatnot,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because you of your hands in the spatial world. You can tend to your fingers together, interlace your fingers, and you can tell
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the person’s fingers are interlaced. But when you present something, like a photo or what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have you, it’s smart enough to put us all in a row, which is actually not entirely stellar, because then
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have to look through one of the per, if you’re on one of the extreme ends, you have to look through the person in the middle to see the person on the far
⏹️ ▶️ Casey end. But still, I give them 90% marks on this, because it’s basically doing what you would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey want it to do. And you get to look at something together, which is really neat. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that one of the more fun demos of the Vision Pro is the legally distinct battleship
⏹️ ▶️ Casey game. So it seems like, Marco, you are not entirely impressed. John, what did you think of the legally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey distinct battleship?
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, that’s a good application, like doing board games like that. It is,
⏹️ ▶️ John unlike sharing photos, doing a board game in person is just
⏹️ ▶️ John much nicer. Obviously, if you’re on the other side of the world from somebody and the virtual one is the only one you’ve got, that’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a more intimate experience than just playing a 2D version. But you know, sometimes playing a 2D one can be good too. If you’re like, I know
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of people do this. I’m sure your kids, you’ve seen your kids do it where they’re on FaceTime with their friends, but they’re also playing a network game
⏹️ ▶️ John with their friends with a different device or even the same device. That actually is similar to this with
⏹️ ▶️ John far less technology. But yeah, I can see, you know, board games would be a good
⏹️ ▶️ John application of this technology because you do get to reach out and do things with the virtual board in front of you and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John like that. It’s just a battleship’s not that exciting of a game. So, you know, I, there are other
⏹️ ▶️ John games, we had to try lots of other games. And now with the PS2 VR controllers that they’re compatible with that Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John will sell you separately from the headset. Now they actually have handsets, which potentially opens up the world to more games,
⏹️ ▶️ John but the game situation is just so much better on the Quest and obviously so much better on the
⏹️ ▶️ John Valve Index or the, you know, all the other sort of game center things or the PlayStation VR even than
⏹️ ▶️ John it is Apple. And that’s their own fault for, you know, being typical Apple and not getting games and refusing to ship their
⏹️ ▶️ John own hand controllers and only belatedly incorporating third-party hand controllers. See also Apple TV and third-party
⏹️ ▶️ John controllers. So, you know, it is what it is, but it’s a good application. But like sharing photos,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s better in the Vision Pro because even if you’re in person with somebody, you can’t take your little five
⏹️ ▶️ John by seven print and stretch it out to fill the room, right? Or unless
⏹️ ▶️ John you have a very large screen, you can’t like project from your laptop and share, I’m gonna project my picture up on that
⏹️ ▶️ John entire wall. Do you have a wall size screen? No, but in Vision Pro you do. And it’s cool.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I think it’s better. It’s like renting out a movie theater to show your family pictures to people.
⏹️ ▶️ John again, you don’t expect, oh, a whole family just needs a $300 headset and we can all do this. Like, I get it. It’s not realistic.
⏹️ ▶️ John But three of us had them and we put them on and we had an experience looking at pictures that would be better
⏹️ ▶️ John than if I was just swiping through them on my phone and you were trying to look at my phone screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, very much so. All right, well, finally, we should at least briefly mention the developer strap.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Today, we were told that there is a new developer strap. Reading from MacRumors, the second generation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey developer strap offers data transfer speeds of up to 20 gigabits per second when connected to a Mac,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whereas the original version was limited to USB 2.0 speeds of up to 480 megabits per second. It is unclear if there are any other changes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The new strap is compatible with both the original Vision Pro with the M2 chip and the updated model with the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M5 chip. I am told that the M2 will get the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey increased data speeds, but I don’t think I’ve seen this verified at any point. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the tech specs from Apple read the USB-C data connection is up to 20 gigabits per second, individually amplified
⏹️ ▶️ Casey dual driver audio pods compatible with the Mac and it’s compatible with the Vision Pro M2 and the Vision Pro M5.
⏹️ ▶️ John So the increased data rate, uh, that’s like when you’re, you know, when you’re doing development, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John why it’s called a development trap and you’re, you build and run your application in Xcode and it will ship it over to the Vision Pro to
⏹️ ▶️ John run on device. Presumably it will do that shipping over faster because instead of 480 megabits, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John up to 20 gigabits. Like, is that the main advantage you see in this thing?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, I think so. Yeah. Um, but I can fathom, you know, somebody had said when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the original came out, like, why can’t we do, you know, like HDMI to USB-C because what’s coming
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of the developer strap, let me, let me back up. You, the way the developer strap works is you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use like a little. Uh, pin, like you would have to pop out a SIM tray. You pop
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out the left hand. I think that’s right. The left hand, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey strap, which is the thing that has that comes off the the Vision Pro that the, um, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey head piece is connected to and you pop that off and you put in a new one. So it has the speaker in it, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it also has a permanently attached little dongle thing that has a USB-C input into it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can’t charge through this. All you can do is connect it to a computer and send data back and forth to the computer.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But why couldn’t you connect it to ethernet? Why couldn’t you connect it to HDMI?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you know, what if you could suck in, you know, an arbitrary HDMI video feed into the Vision Pro?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That would be amazing, but that’s not currently possible. So to more directly answer your question.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. The only thing that this really is useful for is sending developer stuff back
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and forth. And I can’t think of, uh, even when, when Apple has you demo,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, immersive content, if I recall correctly, what they do is you, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey basically connect to your Mac via presumably ad hoc wifi and it streams content
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from your Mac to your vision pro. I don’t know that that would even help. I don’t know that the developer strap
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would help with that either, even though it seems like it would be the perfect timing for it, if you will. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John yeah, I don’t know what you
⏹️ ▶️ John and we also talked about having lower latency for Mac virtual display with a wired connection.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s true. I’m sorry. I did forget about that. Yeah. Hypothetically, it would be lower latency for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac virtual display. It also wouldn’t be doing the ad hoc Wi-Fi thing for Mac virtual display. So that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would presumably be not only more solid, but more performance. I mean, I occasionally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use my developer strap on the rare occasions that I’m doing development. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m going to a questionable Wi-Fi environment, including occasionally the library, sometimes I’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Casey go ahead and swap it on and connect to my Mac just to make it a little more reliable. But generally speaking,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think this is necessary, but I’m curious to try it out, especially if the Mac virtual display
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is much better than if you’re a Mac virtual display person. people that use
⏹️ ▶️ Casey their Vision Pro for hours a day with Mac virtual display. If you’re one of those people, then this might be worth it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is, I think it’s $300 if I’m not mistaken, which is not cheap.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not cheap, especially if you’ve already bought one. But, um, but yeah, it, it certainly is a heck of a lot more powerful
⏹️ ▶️ Casey than the one we were used to.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Although it’s still like, you know, the pro the, the, the original vision, the original Vision Pro’s developer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco strap had, I think two major problems. Number one was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the cost, which I believe was also $300. And number two was that when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you are wearing, so when normally wearing the Vision Pro, you have the battery with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the power cable. So the battery’s in your pocket, and the power cable’s snaking up, usually like up around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your back or your chest, and up around your ear into the stick that it goes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into. Now with the Vision Pro Developer Strap, and this is true for the first one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too, You have the other stick of the Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You now have another cable going into that. So you have cables going down both
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sides of your head into various things. If you think the Vision Pro is awkward
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with one cable, it is so much more awkward with two. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they had a chance to make… They made a second Vision Pro developer strap, and did they solve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that major physical problem? Nope. Seem like they made no effort whatsoever to solve that major
⏹️ ▶️ Marco physical problem And it’s just like it’s like every other thing about the vision probe data is like okay They upgraded some stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did they solve any of the massive problems and challenges and drawbacks it had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope, not a single one not even not even adjusted to any of them, but it’s new
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t maybe they can’t do that because maybe data only goes in the right side But power can only go on the left because of
⏹️ ▶️ John the electronics on the inside of the thing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you got that backwards I think but yeah, I take your point. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they made the Vision Pro and the developer strap at the same time.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah, I know. I know. I’m just saying like if you’re looking for them to fix design problems, the one where they didn’t redesign the product
⏹️ ▶️ John is not gonna be the one that’s gonna solve them.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Either way, I’m curious to see how this works out. And again, like my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey overall summary of the M5 Vision Pro is if you like the Vision Pro but wanted a more modern,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey faster version of it, then yeah, it’s pretty great. If you already have an M2 Vision Pro, would I recommend upgrading?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope, I don’t think so. Especially since you don’t get anything from trading
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But no, I mean, it is more of all the things that are great about the Vision Pro and depending
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on how you feel. And I’m not trying to imply that Marco is wrong because nothing Marco said is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey particularly wrong. I just have a slightly different attitude about it. But if you are enthusiastic about the Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but wanted a more modern version, then hey man, you got it. This is it. but I wouldn’t necessarily
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say this is a necessary upgrade unless apparently you have phenomenal eyesight
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and can tell the difference from about a 10% change. So yeah, but I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really genuinely quite thankful to Apple for sending me one and I hope that maybe there’ll be more of things
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like this in the future.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thank you to our sponsors this episode, Squarespace, Lisa, and Delete Me.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And thanks to our members who support us directly, you can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Overtime, we’re gonna be talking about how Apple is now the new exclusive broadcast partner for Formula One
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the US. So we’ll have our own little kind of overstream going on here. So thank you very much, everybody,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for listening, and we will talk to you next week.
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh
⏹️ ▶️ John find the show notes at atp.fm And if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s K-C-L-I-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean to Accidental, check podcast
John’s unsatisfying bug
⏹️ ▶️ John I have an unsatisfying bug story. It’s unsatisfying because it happened literally today
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s not resolved. It’s much better when you have a bug story like Marco did, where it’s like, I had this weird problem and I tried
⏹️ ▶️ John to figure it out and it turned out to be this thing. I’ve got the first part of that. Maybe people go right in to
⏹️ ▶️ John say what they think it is, but it’s probably just one of those weird bugs that I’m just gonna have to, like, it’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John probably go away when I reboot or log out or something. You just never think about it again. You don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John say, the non-determinism of LLMs. Well, there’s seeming non-determinism in software, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s actually completely deterministic if there are no LMs involved, because they’re just bugs. It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John seems non-deterministic because you don’t see all the things that are happening. Anyway, here is the bug, the ATP
⏹️ ▶️ John Store launch today. And as part of that launch over the past several days, I’ve been
⏹️ ▶️ John gathering all the many, many product photos that are on atp.fm slash
⏹️ ▶️ John store. And I know when you click through to the products, it just goes to the Cotton Bureau site. That’s where the real things are, right? But I like to have a landing
⏹️ ▶️ John page that shows the products. And also I don’t like to just have one static image for a product if the shirt comes in 17
⏹️ ▶️ John different colors and there’s long sleeve and shorts. I just wanna, I wanna show everything. So I rotate them. Like if you stare at the page, these
⏹️ ▶️ John pictures rotate, which is kind of annoying, but I don’t want people to think, oh, I don’t want a T-shirt. I want them to see it rotating. Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John a long sleeve one. Oh, a hoodie, maybe I’ll try that. Oh, it comes in, I don’t like blue. I’m not gonna get that one. Oh, it comes in red. It comes
⏹️ ▶️ John in yellow. You know, that’s what I want on that store page. So I have to make little versions of all
⏹️ ▶️ John the product pictures and put them in there so they can rotate. And that is a time consuming and
⏹️ ▶️ John tedious process. There is a shocking number of product photos once you add up all the variations
⏹️ ▶️ John and all the other stuff. And so I have, you know, automated this workflow as best I can.
⏹️ ▶️ John The most recent thing I did for the holiday store is after
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve downloaded the pictures, they come down as, right now, Cotton Beer is using, what is it, AVIF? Is that the
⏹️ ▶️ John right format? I gotta look it up. Yeah, AVIF, that image format, which is apparently
⏹️ ▶️ John popular, but I’m not gonna put an AVIF on a webpage at this point. So I download the pictures
⏹️ ▶️ John from them and rename them the way I want them. And then I select them all in the finder and do right click
⏹️ ▶️ John and do like, I’m still in Sequoia here. So it’s right click quick actions and there’s like a convert image quick action
⏹️ ▶️ John that comes with the operating system that you can convert all those AVIFs to PNGs. Great,
⏹️ ▶️ John and then I wrote in shortcuts, which was, you know, people liken it to programming with
⏹️ ▶️ John you wearing oven mitts. I would have less kind things to say about it. But
⏹️ ▶️ John for programmers, shortcuts is like having our fingernails removed with pliers. Wow.
⏹️ ▶️ John do you really feel? So many times I’m like, why am I doing this? Why don’t I just
⏹️ ▶️ John go back and write a program? I could do this in a thousand different languages. I can have a debugger. It’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John be over so much quicker. I’m like, no, I’m gonna do it in shortcuts because then it will be easily in the right-click
⏹️ ▶️ John menu. And yes, I know there’s a million ways you can get things into right-click menus without using shortcuts, but I was gonna use shortcuts, damn it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because the next step I have to do is take those pings and resize them. And I wanted a little prompting with a dialogue
⏹️ ▶️ John and say, how big do you wanna resize them? I wanted to default the size that I use for the ATP store, like it’s make it a little thing, and then
⏹️ ▶️ John it resizes them. And then I wanted to rename them to be the old file name with dash resized at the end
⏹️ ▶️ John of the name. And then I wanted to put it in the same directory as the other files and doing that took me so
⏹️ ▶️ John much longer than it should have, because I’m inexperienced with shortcuts. And because half the time
⏹️ ▶️ John I was tearing my hair out going, I know how to do this a thousand different ways in a real programming language, don’t make me drag
⏹️ ▶️ John these stupid boxes around. I was like, I was begging for AppleScript. Like, can I just type, can I just type
⏹️ ▶️ John what this is? I know how to make a loop. I know how to just, no. Anyway, eventually I figured it out, it’s fine. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I was doing this with the images, download them from Content Bureau, convert from AVIF to PNG,
⏹️ ▶️ John put those PNGs in a folder called Originals, right-click them all, do the resize action,
⏹️ ▶️ John then it makes all the resize one, then take all the resize ones and drag them up to the parent folder, then select them all, right-click them
⏹️ ▶️ John all, use the rename function in the finder to rename the minus resize. I could automate this further, but this is good enough,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? I was doing this for product after product and I did a couple of products. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John at one point I would like switch back to the finder. I was like, huh? Where the hell did all those resize
⏹️ ▶️ John images just go? Cause I had like a list view finder window open and I could see my originals, the original.pngs,
⏹️ ▶️ John but all the resize ones were gone. What the hell? I had just uploaded them to the ATP website.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like I knew they, you know, I had them. I wasn’t imagining it there. They’re on the website. How did they get there? I’m like,
⏹️ ▶️ John did I upload the originals? Did I not upload the resized ones? So I looked at the ones I upload, like no, it’s the size I expected it to be.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so I just kept doing this for product after product and I would look back in the file and go, what the hell? All the resized images are gone
⏹️ ▶️ John again. Where did they go? And so I wasn’t paying too much attention to this because I just had
⏹️ ▶️ John work to do. I’m like, look, they’re gone so what? I can recreate them in two seconds, right click, reset. Like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John an automation. I have the originals, I can remake them. And I remake them and they would disappear again.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I was like, okay, now I, once I got the store up and running and I was, I was going back and forth
⏹️ ▶️ John with kind of your folks hammering out the details of like metadata and stuff like I’ve got the images up on, on a TB that
⏹️ ▶️ John FM, I got the a TB that FM slash store page ready to go. That part is done. Let me pay, put
⏹️ ▶️ John some attention into this book. So at first I described
⏹️ ▶️ John it in one of the slacks, like, Hey, maybe somebody knows what this is. Um, and then I just, I don’t know why I decided
⏹️ ▶️ John to do this cause it makes no sense as any kind of debugging thing, but it was just, I don’t know. I decided to screen record
⏹️ ▶️ John it. So I was like, look, if these images are disappearing from our Finder window, I ought to be able to get a
⏹️ ▶️ John screen recording of it happening. And if it’s not just my imagination, if I’m not just like forgetting things or
⏹️ ▶️ John keep, did I misdrag something? Did I accidentally hit Command Delete? Did I whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ John So I was gonna take a screen recording of it. And so I, you know, I make the images of the automation. I
⏹️ ▶️ John start screen recording of that window and I let it run. And while
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s running, let’s pretend it’s running now. Let me tell you all the things that you’re probably thinking. Files weren’t in the trash.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not running Hazel. I’m not running a full direction. There’s no cron job. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John everything that you would think of to check for this. Like, is there some, did you accidentally delete them? Did you hit
⏹️ ▶️ John a key? If you hit undo, did they come back? No, no, no, no. None of these things are the case. These
⏹️ ▶️ John are newly created folders with no full directions. I do not have Hazel installed. There is no cron job doing this.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re not aimed at any particular way. they would like, there’s no explanation.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like I said, they’re not in the finder. Didn’t see anything on the console for them, although the console is real noisy, so I admit I might’ve missed something that was there.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m running my screen recording, and then the screensaver kicks in. And when
⏹️ ▶️ John I unlock the screen after the screensaver kicked in, the screen recording had stopped. Because that’s the thing that QuickTime
⏹️ ▶️ John does. A QuickTime player will stop a screen recording when the screensaver starts. Fine, disable the screensaver.
⏹️ ▶️ John I disable the screensaver, I let it run, I go do something else, I come back like 20 minutes later, everything’s
⏹️ ▶️ John still there. I’m like, huh, I don’t know. Maybe it’s just not going to happen again or something. And then I just go start using my computer
⏹️ ▶️ John again. And then I glanced back at the window and they’re gone. God damn it. I missed it. It’s like, it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John the refrigerator light. Is it on when you, you know, when you close the door, is it? I really turned off. You can’t really tell.
⏹️ ▶️ John I eventually in my debugging, got it, got a recording of it happening. And this is what I had to do.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, I did find that like, if I let it sit for 20 minutes, cause I thought it was time-based thing. I let it sit for 20 minutes, then
⏹️ ▶️ John I activated the screensaver, then I quickly unlocked the screensaver. I could see the window, but now the screen recording isn’t running,
⏹️ ▶️ John but then they would disappear before I could restart the screen recording. So I’m like, maybe the screensaver activated, but no, that’s not the answer either.
⏹️ ▶️ John What I eventually came up with was, start the screen recording, let it sit for some amount of time.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what that amount of time is. Maybe it doesn’t have to be that long, but let it sit for, each time I’m doing this, by the way, I’m recreating the files
⏹️ ▶️ John with the automation that I described earlier. Start the screen recording, let it sit, come back to it,
⏹️ ▶️ John Click into any other application. Like I clicked on a terminal window. So now finder is not the active app
⏹️ ▶️ John terminal is. Everything’s still fine. Click back on the window with all the files in it.
⏹️ ▶️ John The second I click back on that window and activate that window, files disappear. And
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like I said, when I
⏹️ ▶️ John say disappear, I mean disappear. As in, they are not there in the directory. They’re not in the trash. They’re
⏹️ ▶️ John not anywhere. They’re like deleted from the disk. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John as far as I’ve gotten with this bug. but it is 100% reproducible. If
⏹️ ▶️ John I create these images with this automation and let it sit there and
⏹️ ▶️ John click into another application, click back to it, they are deleted. And I did a little, actually I did a little bit more
⏹️ ▶️ John debugging, which is like, okay, if I create these images and then create a zip archive of all the images,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Then I wait for the bug to happen. La da da da da. The bug happens, all the images go away. But I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John still got the zip archive that had all those images in it. So then I can unzip that archive and lo
⏹️ ▶️ John and behold, the images reappear. those images that I unzip from that archive do not get
⏹️ ▶️ John deleted ever. They just stay on the disk like you would expect them to. So that eliminates a whole
⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of other stuff like Hazel things or jobs running that are deleting stuff because why the hell would it not delete
⏹️ ▶️ John the ones that came from the zip file? How does it know they came from the zip file? It’s almost as if my shortcut is keeping the
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey rename these files. I
⏹️ ▶️ John move these files and rename them. I run the shortcut that makes, you know, dash resize versions of these
⏹️ ▶️ John images, right? then I move all of them to a different directory, then I rename all of them,
⏹️ ▶️ John and yet somehow something in the system is keeping enough track of them to delete all of them at some point later when I
⏹️ ▶️ John switch away from Finder and come back. It’s the weirdest bug I’ve ever seen. I have no idea what the hell’s causing it. And
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s one of the spookiest things ever because it’s like, you don’t expect it if you make a bunch of files, like there’s like literally hundreds of
⏹️ ▶️ John files, you don’t expect them to just disappear from your disk with nothing happening. So if anyone has any bright ideas,
⏹️ ▶️ John feel free to tell me. I really do think this is the type of bug where it’s some like, Something inside the shortcuts mechanism
⏹️ ▶️ John has gone awry and it really does have like open file descriptors and all those files. So even if I rename them, move them,
⏹️ ▶️ John file descriptor is still a file descriptor. And as long as that process is still alive and those files still exist, it can delete them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Why it decides to delete them, you know, essentially unlink them all. Like I have no freaking idea, but
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what I think is happening. And I think if I logged out or rebooted, I would never see this bug again, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John guess I’ll update you on in the future if I ever figure this out. But one of the scariest bugs I’ve ever seen because it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John literally a like silent, instant data loss bug with no recourse. It just happened
⏹️ ▶️ John to be in a scenario where I can always reproduce these files.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John really weird. It’s terrifying. That’s why I did
⏹️ ▶️ John a screen recording, because like no one’s going to freaking believe me, but I have a screen recording of it to happen. You’ll see the arrow come over, you see it click
⏹️ ▶️ John on the title bar, and then boom, images disappear from the directory. A lot of images instantly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no guesses.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my only guess was something to do with the shortcut, but you’ve already said that and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey woof. Other than that, I got
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John nothing. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like something inside the shortcuts mechanism or the automation mechanism. Like it’s the only thing that would have
⏹️ ▶️ John an open file handle on these files. And I feel like if either you have an open file handler or you have kept track
⏹️ ▶️ John of like the unique file ID that like HFS and HFS plus had, and I think APFS has
⏹️ ▶️ John as well. Like if you keep track, even though when you rename and move a file, the file ID stays the same. So if you have that file
⏹️ ▶️ John ID, you can reopen it. But certainly if you have an open file handle, then you can move and rename those files all
⏹️ ▶️ John you want. I believe you will still be able, you could still like unlink them if you wanted to. Anyway, I put the video in
⏹️ ▶️ John Slack if you want to see it. That’s a lot of images of the M5 shirt disappearing
⏹️ ▶️ John when I come and click on the Finder window. It is baffling.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is, I hate this. This is not good.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not making me feel better about shortcuts, let me tell you. It’s really making me want to like use one of those things that lets me run
⏹️ ▶️ John like a bash script or a Perl script in response to a right click thing. Cause I know how those work and they will not auto
⏹️ ▶️ John delete my files 10 minutes later for no reason. Wow. If they do it, it’s because I made a bug in my
⏹️ ▶️ John code, which just happens, but like, whatever this is, this is bad.