661: Intimate and Regimented
16 Oct 2025The surprise M5 special!
Episode Description:
- Follow-up:
- Languages in Scotland
- ATP merch has more benefits (via Christian Heiler)
- Slide Over fade animation (via Daniel Luz)
- Marco’s iPhone case survey: Ryan London bare bottom (via Oliver Thomas)
/u/LaughingMan11is Benson Leung (via Deta & Daniel Luz)- ZFS and the Drobo dream (via Joe)
- An aside for an argument
- Apple M5
- M5 Pro, M5 Max, TSMC’s SoIC
- M5 MacBook Pro
- M5 iPad Pro
- M5 Vision Pro
- Apple TV+ is now Apple TV
- Post-show: iPhone setup, take two
- Skip all the Siri/FaceID/etc things until setup is complete
- Don’t try to memorize the flashing 6-digit code; choose another way
- Members-only ATP Overtime: Alexa Plus in the real world
Sponsored by:
- Sentry: A real-time error monitoring and tracing platform.
- Grammarly: A digital writing assistant that ensures your writing and reputation shine.
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Chapters
- Language in Scotland
- ATP-recognition corner
- iPadOS 26.1 Slide Over
- Another iPhone case
- A USB expert
- ZFS and the Drobo dream
- Sponsor: Grammarly
- Why do we record on Wednesdays?
- M5 🖼️
- M5 Pro/Max theories
- M5 14” MacBook Pro
- Sponsor: Sentry (code atppod)
- M5 iPad Pro
- M5 Vision Pro
- Apple TV–
- Ending theme
- John’s phone-setup quest
Language in Scotland
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, I have solved Apple’s TV naming problem.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We can’t talk about this now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s part of the actual show. We’re gonna talk about it now, because honestly I don’t think we’re gonna get to it, and this is probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John all it deserves.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’re gonna get to it. I spent too much time on it for it to get to. We got quotes from Eddie Cue. If not this show,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, I’ll have to save my idea for another time then.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, save it for when we cover the topic.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not that good of an idea. Well. It’s good enough for a pre-show, it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good enough for the actual show.
⏹️ ▶️ John enough for both of them, Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not, it’s really not. You’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s do some follow-up. Apparently the Scots are still perturbed. Adam1 writes, I could hear every
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Scotsman in the world screaming in pain when you said English is the native language of Scotland.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m afraid my cousins over the pond are swearing oaths right now. It is true that English is the practical language in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Scotland’s largest cities, but you don’t have to go far out of the cities before the traditional and historic language of the Scots
⏹️ ▶️ Casey begins to creep into communication. Scottish Gaelic, the true language of the Scotsman,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey man I’m getting tongue-twied, tongue-tied, oh my word, just leave it all in, just leave it all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco fine, we’re doing live.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tongue-twied, is still spoken in the Highlands and the rural areas of the West, and even
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where English is more common, many English speakers might not be able to understand much of what is said. The practical
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tongue is often a creole of English and Gaelic. Quick aside, I didn’t realize that Creole
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had a lowercase version. I only knew of the uppercase Creole from the Louisiana area.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I learned something today. Anyways, going back to what Adam said, all that said, regardless of where you go, no
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Scotsman would ever identify themselves as English in any way. Additionally, Justin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Monroe Marrington writes, there are three official languages in Scotland, Scots, a Germanic language spoken in the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lowlands, which split off from middle English around 600 AD, English or Scottish English,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is a dialect that borrows quite a few words from Scots, confusing lots of people who don’t realize Scots is a language,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Gaelic, the Celtic, Celtic, whatever language, most commonly spoken in the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Western Highlands and Isles.
⏹️ ▶️ John So there you go. I knew it wasn’t right. I stopped myself in mid-sentence, but I didn’t, when I talked about it, I didn’t know the
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t know what the actual answer was, so now we do.
ATP-recognition corner
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Coming back to recognition corner, Christian Heeler writes, I’m a hiring manager and we are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hiring for a technical consulting role. I joined a Zoom call with a candidate who was wearing a black ATP polo shirt.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey First of all, excellent taste with the polo, I approve. We did the usual interview questions, but I asked him at the end,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey who’s your favorite podcast host? After having a five minute ATP discussion and giving the correct answer, we offered a job
⏹️ ▶️ Casey same day. To which I replied privately to Christian, I am so glad that I got him a job,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even though we all know the correct answer was probably John, but that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John okay. left it a mystery, didn’t say what the correct answer was, but all I’m saying is ATB March gets you jobs.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That’s what I heard.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do, I love that he didn’t say in the email who,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John what was the correct answer. I love that.
⏹️ ▶️ John We all just get to think it’s us. It’s perfect.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John not me. It might be.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey It’s definitely not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It very well could be. the right is dancers casey
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that well and i appreciate that
iPadOS 26.1 Slide Over
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, anyways. All right. So iPadOS 26.1 slide over, uh, Daniel
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Luz-Luz, uh, correctly guessed that John somehow had reduced transparency
⏹️ ▶️ Casey turned on causing the lack of sliding animation in slide over.
⏹️ ▶️ John Correction. Reduce, reduce motion. I had to reduce motion on my, my bad. My
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey bad. What did I just say?
⏹️ ▶️ John I type transparency.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, well it made sense to me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Sorry. Anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ John So this is the story behind this. Um, I’m well aware that when you have reduced motion on it,
⏹️ ▶️ John it changes animations into crossfades because if you remember way back
⏹️ ▶️ John in the iOS 7 days, I turned on reduced motion because I didn’t like how stuff moved in iOS 7.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then I got to witness the crossfades everywhere. That’s how they handled
⏹️ ▶️ John it. And remember the whole debate we had, you probably don’t, but about like, well, if you turn off reduced motion,
⏹️ ▶️ John then you don’t get to see the laser effects and messages. Do you remember that?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh yes, I do.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then Apple added an update later that said, okay, even if you have reduced motion You can still choose to see the message effects
⏹️ ▶️ John because I wanted to see the message effects But I didn’t want to see the motion and they had an option for it in Bulba So that’s why I had a reduced
⏹️ ▶️ John motion on way back and whatever this was like iOS 7 days But years ago
⏹️ ▶️ John for a long time now, I gave up on that. I just turned reduced motion off and I’m just taking the defaults Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John they change the animations. Maybe I just got used to but whatever I did that So even though I knew reduced motion
⏹️ ▶️ John had crossfades and even though I was saying slide over is doing crossfade instead of a slide over It didn’t make any sense to me.
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t connect the dots there And I almost replied to Daniel and said no I don’t have reduced motion on it turns out off years ago, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John But I checked I went to the iPad and checked and sure enough on my iPad reduced motion was on and then I’m like, okay but
⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re on iOS 18 and you have reduced motion on the slide over slide
⏹️ ▶️ John and the answer is yes It still slides on iOS 18 But an I was an iPad OS 18
⏹️ ▶️ John and iPad OS 26 if you have reduced motion on Slide over does half a slide and then cross fades
⏹️ ▶️ John into its final position So that part of my complaint about iPadOS and slide over
⏹️ ▶️ John is basically invalid, although I think what they do with reduced motion is dumb. But here’s the other thing. The screen
⏹️ ▶️ John flicker and flashing also only happens when you have reduced motion on.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you turn reduced motion off, which I did now on my iPad, slide over slides normally and it does not
⏹️ ▶️ John cause the entire screen to flash and flicker when you slide in and slide out. So I’m a little
⏹️ ▶️ John bit happier than I was. Thank you, Daniel, for making me double check that setting. but Apple really needs to work on their reduced
⏹️ ▶️ John motion thing because it is just untenable. You know, I think that the half animation
⏹️ ▶️ John in crossfade is ugly, but the flashing is just too much, especially if it’s like, you know, you’re in dark
⏹️ ▶️ John mode or it’s dark in the room or whatever.
Another iPhone case
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We are now returning to Case Corner, where Olivia Oliver Thomas writes, Ryan London
⏹️ ▶️ Casey now has an open bottom iPhone 17 pro case with sapphire camera control buttons.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This sounds like exactly what the doctor ordered for John Syracuse. What do you think, John? I
⏹️ ▶️ John have this phone, so
⏹️ ▶️ John but Marco was saying that he liked the bullstrap case, but didn’t like the bra thing on it. And the Ryan
⏹️ ▶️ John London one has a smooth leather surround. It doesn’t have like a big ridge or a wall
⏹️ ▶️ John or a metal ring, but it does show the whole plateau. So I was bringing this to Marco’s attention
⏹️ ▶️ John in case he wants to try one more case. This is basically the Bullstrap case, but with a little R on the side instead of a bull
⏹️ ▶️ John on the back and the whole plateau exposed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yep. So I ordered it. We’ll see whatever it gets. The only thing is like from the photos,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it looks kind of like the buttons suck. Like those are not good looking buttons in those photos.
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly like I would love to know like who makes all these cases because like for many years, Ryan Lennon and and Bullstrap have
⏹️ ▶️ John basically sold the same case with minor variations. Clearly there’s some manufacturers that are making all of these,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they’ve always for the past couple years had this, like the buttons have kind of been like this, like a blister where the buttons come out
⏹️ ▶️ John of, as opposed to what I would like, which is like the old Apple leather cases where it’s the opposite, where there’s like a ditch that the buttons
⏹️ ▶️ John are in, so the buttons can be taller because the surface there above
⏹️ ▶️ John is inset. But anyway, I mean, it’s not the end of the world, but it’s definitely not
⏹️ ▶️ John the nicest buttons. But everything else about it open bottom black leather smooth thing around the
⏹️ ▶️ John plateau and whole plateau exposed seems nice
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah it looks like it if the buttons are okay which is a big if for a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco leather case but if the buttons are okay then that could be really nice otherwise I’ve been using the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pete design case for the last week solid you know all the way through and it’s been again what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I said last week it’s really bulky but if you can forgive the bulk of it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is otherwise excellent It’s in every other way, but it is bulky.
A USB expert
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And speaking of Marco, let’s talk about your USB odyssey because data writes John said that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey laughing man 11 the reddit poster with details about USB and Thunderbolt cable sounded kind of thwarted if he is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least a little Laughing man 11 is the reddit account of Benson Leung engineer on the chrome OS kernel
⏹️ ▶️ Casey His name is literally on some of the USB C specifications He gives lots of fantastic advice about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey USB C on reddit and will also put in a link to his Wikipedia page which gives a little of the history there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Short, short, if I recall correctly, was he got burned by some crummy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey USB-C cables and decided this cannot stand. and I will talk and scream
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the heavens about what’s good and what’s bad. And that’s what he does.
ZFS and the Drobo dream
⏹️ ▶️ Casey With regard to ZFS and the Drobo Dream, John, can you remind us what is the Drobo Dream?
⏹️ ▶️ John Drobo Dream is if you’re like a home user and not like buying for an enterprise and data centers and stuff like that, but you’re just
⏹️ ▶️ John a regular person who wants to have a bunch of storage and a network attached storage device.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you don’t want to have to buy hard drives in sets of like 20 or something. You just want to buy as much hard drive
⏹️ ▶️ John space as you can afford. And then later when you run out of space, see how what the next biggest
⏹️ ▶️ John hard drive you can afford, whatever’s on the market, whatever is, you know, whatever, and just buy it and and stick it in there and keep doing that. Expand
⏹️ ▶️ John your space by basically, you know, running it, you know, filling the space that you have and then looking at your
⏹️ ▶️ John budget at the time and the technology at the time and then just buying the biggest drive that you can afford that you think is good and sticking it
⏹️ ▶️ John in there and having your expansion grow, but also having whatever data redundancy
⏹️ ▶️ John you chose when you set up the storage array, stay the same. So you’re not just doing like a JBOD
⏹️ ▶️ John thing where it’s just like, oh yeah, you should get a drive of any size, it just adds space, right? There’s no redundancy there. If you lose one drive, you lose all
⏹️ ▶️ John the data on that drive. So whenever you set up your array, Like I set it up and I want to be able to withstand one drive
⏹️ ▶️ John failure, I want to be able to withstand two drive failure, I want to be able to withstand 50% of my drives to fail. Whatever redundancy
⏹️ ▶️ John you decide is appropriate for your array, you set that on day one, and then over the years,
⏹️ ▶️ John you just buy the next biggest drive and stick it in, buy the next biggest drive and stick it in, or replace a smaller drive with a bigger one.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s the Drobo dream. It is a dream of home users who want to be economical as they expand
⏹️ ▶️ John their storage while still benefiting from redundancy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So with that in mind, Joe writes, there have recently been some developments in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the open ZFS world with regard to the Drobo Dream called ZFS AnyRAID.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey While it is more complicated than I’m able to quickly summarize, essentially ZFS AnyRAID breaks down all the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey disks across the ZFS RAID array into 64 gig tiles and then runs its parity
⏹️ ▶️ Casey calculations on these tiles rather than across entire blocks as in traditional ZFS RAID. What this means is that in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the future, a ZFS AnyRAID deployment will be able to handle disks of varying sizes in a much better and consumer-friendlier
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way. While this is being developed by HexOS, they have committed to open sourcing it when it is finally
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so this is an in-progress thing. Again, ZFS’s various RAID schemes are more flexible than they
⏹️ ▶️ John used to be, but they don’t achieve the Drobo dream. The Drobo dream is called
⏹️ ▶️ John that because Drobo sold a while ago a hardware product that purported to do what I just described,
⏹️ ▶️ John and more or less did it, but some reliability issues. And I believe they’re gone now. They’re totally out of business, I think.
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess as far as I know, that’s right. Or does somebody buy their assets or something? Anyway, ZFS AnyRaid sounds promising, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s still in development, So keep your eye out for that.
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Why do we record on Wednesdays?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. I think we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey good on follow up. So we had some breaking news earlier today. And I appreciate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that Apple at least did it before we recorded, even though I would have preferred yesterday, but it’s fine. Better than
⏹️ ▶️ John tomorrow. Well, I don’t know. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it was the holiday, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Isn’t that why it’s on? Because they usually do an announcement on Tuesdays, but it was like indigenous people’s day on Monday. So that everything gets shifted
⏹️ ▶️ John like your garbage pickup.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Are you trying to say
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your opinions about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John this? Again, for a
⏹️ ▶️ John new listeners to the show, we intentionally record on Wednesday because Apple used to announce products
⏹️ ▶️ John on Tuesdays, and then we would be able to like get record the show right after they announced them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is not why we picked Wednesday’s. We happened to pick Wednesday and that happened to work out pretty well
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s why we picked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is not. That is your what is the reverse head can
⏹️ ▶️ John that was maybe it was only in my head,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey but that is definitely in my head.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I’ve said it before on the show. So it’s not like the first time you’re two are hearing this last time you didn’t object to it. But the FOI
⏹️ ▶️ John that was definitely in my head.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I’m pretty sure the reason was like when we decided to do the show like, hey, when can you record? How about this Wednesday? Yeah, okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then it just stuck.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I’m pretty sure I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think there was more thought than that. It was basically what day do we want to do this? And I thought we landed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Wednesdays being well, it’s the middle of the week. I do not remember.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m pretty sure I wish we had this recorded. Maybe we even do someday I’m going to run transcription of all our recordings.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m pretty sure the three of us discussed the fact that Apple usually announces on Tuesday. So Wednesday is good. And I’m even more
⏹️ ▶️ John sure that I have said this idea on the show before. Neither of you objected. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John suffice it to say, regardless of all that, it was in my head when we picked Wednesday,
⏹️ ▶️ John whether it was voiced or not, but it totally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was voiced. Well, but hold on. We had this schedule for neutral and we weren’t figuring about Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John like press release. I don’t even remember when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we recorded neutral. It was Wednesday nights, I thought. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John don’t know. I mean, you think I know? I’m not going to trust your memory of that. Exactly. Let
⏹️ ▶️ John me see. All right, I can find this out now, real time.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey All right, we’re going to figure this out.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to go find a neutral recording file. When were we recording neutral? Let’s see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was January of 13. Oh, these are
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey incomparables.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco programming.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t have the old project files. I just have the MP3s.
⏹️ ▶️ John Neutral was on… All right, here’s a neutral recording on April 10, 2013. What
⏹️ ▶️ John day was that? Whoops, Cal 4, 2013.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The 10th was a Wednesday. What now? What now? What now?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Vindication, baby!
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Vindication! Obviously
⏹️ ▶️ John we didn’t pick neutral based on the day Apple releases it. Exactly!
⏹️ ▶️ John something. When we were choosing the day to record ATP. Yeah. We were already recording on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wednesday. Exactly! You are definitely inventing some headcanon here, John.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s fine! I’m okay with that. Like I said,
⏹️ ▶️ John this was definitely in my head. If I’d never spoke it to you, that’s on me, but I’m pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey sure we had this discussion.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m pretty sure the three of us had this discussion. And we’re like, yeah, it’s a good idea, because they release things on Wednesday. And I’m even more
⏹️ ▶️ John sure that I said on one of our shows, or maybe a member special or whatever, that the reason we do it on Wednesday is because
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple announced it on Tuesday. Neither of you objected, and that was recent. It was probably like in baking the show or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey As Chloe Tart says in the chat, revisionist self-historian.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m here for it. All right, well, it’s too bad that the released episode
⏹️ ▶️ Casey isn’t going to have any of that, because I know that Marco’s going to cut all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that out. No, that’s staying in.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright, we’ll see. Because it’s us being probably right.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I mean, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John going to get the follow-up from the people who have better transcription search than me, finding the last time I mentioned that neither of you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, just because we didn’t object then doesn’t mean we agreed, necessarily. We just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John didn’t want to get in an argument.
⏹️ ▶️ John It was in my head. This is what I was thinking about Wednesday as a good day.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is a benefit that we enjoy by recording on Wednesday, but I do not believe it was the reason.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe it just happened to us, and we are thankful for that over time. Right, just like a white car,
⏹️ ▶️ John it can happen to anyone. Yeah, and neither of you remember the discussion of like, yeah, we should stick to Wednesday, because Apple usually announces stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s the whole, but stick to Wednesday is different, because we were already there. Exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I’m saying. I’m not saying that we had to move, even if we were already in neutral, I’m saying the reason
⏹️ ▶️ John we chose Wednesday, as in let’s not change from Wednesday, was because Apple announced the stuff on Tuesday.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now you’re saying, yeah, I remember that, but we didn’t change days, so it doesn’t count? Oh my god, I’m dying.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco choose Wednesday with that in mind. We chose Wednesday for like, you know, just- We chose to stay with
⏹️ ▶️ John Wednesday with that in mind. Because we were already there. But we could have moved it to any other day. We
⏹️ ▶️ John could have, but why would we? We already had all the momentum. Well, the reason we didn’t was because we discussed
⏹️ ▶️ John it and said, well, this is actually a good day because Apple announces stuff on Tuesday and we’ll be able to record right after they announce stuff. But that doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Oh, this is just semantics. I feel like you’re just saying that you agree with me, but you have some
⏹️ ▶️ John hair splitting semantic thing. Well, technically we didn’t choose it because it was already there. We just didn’t change it. Yes,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that matters. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John think that is hair splitting. And you don’t remember this conversation where we said, well, we should use Wednesday
⏹️ ▶️ John because Tuesday is when Apple announces stuff. Are you saying you remember that now?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I think we’ve talked about that multiple times over time, but it was never in the context of like, what day
⏹️ ▶️ Marco should we record? It was always like- Again, what I just
⏹️ ▶️ John said earlier in the segment is the reason we record on Wednesday. Which I disagree with
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey this association. I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John say the reason we chose Wednesday in the very beginning for the first time we recorded it. The reason we
⏹️ ▶️ John chose not to change from Wednesday was because.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I agree to nothing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was definitely that, and not that we had had three months of momentum and why would we mess with the system?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, there wasn’t really much
⏹️ ▶️ John momentum from Neutral. That’s true. I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey mean, well, here’s the
⏹️ ▶️ John other thing. Some of the original ATPs were literally recorded after Neutral, accidental tech podcast.
⏹️ ▶️ John So they were recorded at the same time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, on Wednesday.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yes. All right, sure, sure. But at that point, we didn’t know it
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco was a podcast. We
⏹️ ▶️ John weren’t choosing a day for a podcast that we were recording about Apple, obviously.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I love you so much, but this is retconning to the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John extreme. It’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John retconning. You both agree that that’s why we record on Wednesday. You just don’t think it was chosen. You
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know what you’re doing right now is, I’ve told this story somewhere, probably this show. Just bear with me here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Long time ago, Declan and I would go to lunch every Sunday, and I would take him to a different barbecue place, not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the one that Marco went to. And one time I was like, you know what, Declan, you like to try a french fry?”
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I thought, oh, this will be the one time. And so I let him try a french fry. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of course he’s like, wow, that’s delicious. And then every time we went to the barbecue place, he thought he would have a french fry.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So because I agreed once, he thought forever more that was a fact. Because we didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey argue with you once about the-
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But it is a fact! We do record on Wednesday
⏹️ ▶️ John because that’s when Apple releases things on Tuesdays. And also you told the story about the french fry
⏹️ ▶️ John before on the show, which I remember.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve told it at least a couple times, even I remembered having told it at some point, but I’m not trying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say that my memory is as good as yours. I will say, however, that the two of us agree that you are retconning. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not retconning! You both remember the conversation. You’re just debating
⏹️ ▶️ John whether that conversation constitutes the thing I was describing. You’re saying, no, it doesn’t. But none of you are saying we
⏹️ ▶️ John never had that conversation or never had this thought before, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco had a conversation about, wow, it is kind of nice that we record on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Wednesdays. Exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. OK, so Marco agrees. Casey,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you agree? No, I think that it was circumstantial. Like we are already here. What we
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are going to be sticking with
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, Casey doesn’t remember the conversation, which is not surprising. Marco doesn’t remember the conversation, but thinks it doesn’t count or doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey definitely agree. And I’m totally
⏹️ ▶️ John willing to declare victory based on Marco’s memory of the conversation, because that’s what I’m talking about, that we had that conversation
⏹️ ▶️ John and said, yes, this is this is a thing that is a factor in the Wednesdayness of the show.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All three of us are declaring victory on conflicting goals.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey is the most- You know what it should be? Only
⏹️ ▶️ John that person’s favorite host should declare victory.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the truth comes out and John is feeling real confident about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John this. No, I’m not saying who it is. All three of us. It could be any one of us.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love doing this show so much. I really truly do. Even when you two drive me bananas, which is often, I still very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey much love you. I have so much stuff to get to in this show. Well, you shouldn’t have argued with us. It’s all your fault. Anyway, the M5!
M5
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The M5 has been announced today and it’s in a bunch of devices which we’ll talk about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but let’s talk about the M5 first It’s built you this is reading from Apple built using third generation 3 nanometer technology
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M5 introduces a next generation 10 core GPU architecture with a neural accelerator in each core enabling GPU
⏹️ ▶️ Casey based AI workloads to run Dramatically faster with over four times the peak GPU compute
⏹️ ▶️ Casey performance compared to M4 The GPU also offers enhanced graphics capabilities and third-generation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ray tracing that combined delivered a graphics performance that is up to 45% higher than the M4.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The M5 features the world’s fastest performance core with up to a 10 core CPU
⏹️ ▶️ Casey made up of six efficiency cores and up to four performance cores.
⏹️ ▶️ John you still don’t know how to handle those JS’s, huh? Right, no, I thought this was your time to interject!
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m going to explain it again, second time. When you see a thing in the show,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re reading a thing, in the notes it’s like from some document, this is from Apple’s press release, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John And then obviously you’re reading from Apple’s press release. If I want to interject with some point that
⏹️ ▶️ John is not from the text, I put JS in front of it, so you know this wasn’t from the thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Right, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John thought you were interjecting, that’s the key. But it’s just, I’m just adding information. I’m saying that I added that information,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t need to say it. All right, all right.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You just need to like that. This is the point where you can interject
⏹️ ▶️ John this as if this is your
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey inside. Well, you know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I knew? You know what I knew that JS did not know? I can’t even say it with a straight face. What I knew and John
⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t know or something like that is that that is the same performance and efficiency cores as the M4. Definitely something
⏹️ ▶️ John matter who knows that. I just wanted that information to get out
⏹️ ▶️ John in case, hey, you’re wondering six efficiency and four performance. Is that a change from the M4? No, it’s not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Which often to be fair, like oftentimes the, you know, the Apple press releases
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or statements in the keynotes will omit that information because it usually is not that impressive compared
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the past generation. Or they’ll say it’s 75% faster than the M2. It’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, but that wasn’t the previous chip. They’ll do comparisons like that because they want to maximize how important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new chip sounds. And in a lot of specs, the M5 is actually really impressive over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M4. And in some specs, it’s more of just kind of like an evolutionary, like, oh, here’s a nice little step.
⏹️ ▶️ John And even when there’s big changes with core counts and stuff, they don’t really talk much about like, remember, what would
⏹️ ▶️ John they do the, which was the, the pro that had like a really weird, uh, different number of cores than the previous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was like, it was like six and six instead of six and four. Like it had way more efficiency cores in the base.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And they don’t, they tend not to emphasize that, but when we’re talking about chips, it’s one of the things we’re interested in. Like, have they made different decisions about
⏹️ ▶️ John how to allocate the, uh, Silicon space on, you know, whatever the chip is, but just,
⏹️ ▶️ John just FYI, the M5 doesn’t make different decisions than the M4 did in that area.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Reading from Apple, together they deliver up to 15% faster multi-threaded performance over M4. M5 also
⏹️ ▶️ Casey features an improved 16-core neural engine, a powerful media engine, and nearly 30% increase in unified memory bandwidth
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to 153 gigs per second. The Verge says,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Apple phones…
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Oh, you skipped it again!
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, Jesus. Me and Marco were watching, we’re like, fingers crossed, it’s gonna happen, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna work! He got it this time, he got it, oh, no, he missed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mess. You know, when I said I love doing the show with you, I’m just going to to put it in past tense now. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about to get fired. I’ve loved doing the show with you two. I will collect my belongings.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will not serve my two weeks. I will hold my head in shame. We can’t fire you. You’re the favorite host.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So one of us who’s definitely not John Syracuse says the M4 was 120 gigs per
⏹️ ▶️ Casey second instead of 153 gigs in the M5. The Verge writes that Apple claims the M5 chip is three
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a half times faster at AI tasks than the M4. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this is actually following a very similar pattern from what we saw with the the new iPhone Pro processor,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where the graphics performance, and especially with AI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco acceleration of certain things by GPUs, it’s a huge leap above the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco M4. The processor is, again, it’s kind of just more of an evolutionary, I mean, 15%
⏹️ ▶️ Marco multi-threaded performance over the M4 in one year is still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really good. When we think back to the Intel days, you were lucky to get like five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to 10% with each new generation, which was not every year. They were usually longer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than that. So for Apple to, you know, in like the least exciting upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the M5, which is the CPU cores, for those to be 15% faster,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t sound like much because of what we’re used to with the M chips, because they usually are like, they keep leaping forward.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the M4 was in particular a substantial leap over the M3 in CPU
⏹️ ▶️ Marco performance. So it’s impressive they were able to get 15% more. But the real story
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the M5 is not the CPU. The real story with the M5 is the GPU cores.
⏹️ ▶️ John Although Apple touts, I didn’t put this quote in there, but Apple does tout that the power cores in the
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 are something like the most powerful power cores ever made, which is like, well, the only people who would
⏹️ ▶️ John make a thing called power cores is you. No,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s not true anymore. Intel now has
⏹️ ▶️ John like- I know, like everybody has the big and little cores. I’m not saying that Apple’s the only company that makes some cores
⏹️ ▶️ John more powerful than others, but I think they might’ve capitalized the P, or like anyways, like what does this even mean?
⏹️ ▶️ John Am I comparing the biggest compute core in your thing to the biggest compute core in any chip in the world?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Maybe they’re right. The
⏹️ ▶️ John biggest power PC core.
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, the point is, Apple is very proud of the power cores. Now this is another piece of information that I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John pretty sure last time this came up that we weren’t entirely sure and I’m mostly sure. Remember Mark, you asked,
⏹️ ▶️ John are they still doing the thing where the CPU cores in this are from last year’s phone chip
⏹️ ▶️ John and not this year’s phone chip?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s what we were speculating, but no, it seems like this is a direct copy into the Mac world
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what’s in the new iPhone chip?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that’s the case. I think these are the CPU cores, based on
⏹️ ▶️ John the CPU cores of last year’s phone chip. Now, the phone chip doesn’t have power cores
⏹️ ▶️ John of the same kind. I believe the power cores are always custom, but anyway, I would love for someone who knows
⏹️ ▶️ John whether or not are, because they used to do that. The M chips used to get the older cores than the phone chips.
⏹️ ▶️ John Obviously, this is getting the newest GPU, like Margot said, like that’s the big headline story for the M5. It gets the GPU tech
⏹️ ▶️ John that they used in the current phones, which have those, whatever, neural accelerators. Every GPU core gives them a big boost.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, that’s clear, it has that. The question is, are these CPU cores? And somebody,
⏹️ ▶️ John someone’s gonna know, because they all have those code names of like, I forget what
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey they are, but like Ice Storm. Tornado. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John like, and then you can tell what they are. I just, I, you know, we don’t have this hardware and I wouldn’t know how to do that anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ John So if somebody out there knows, what CPU cores are the CPU cores in the M5 based on?
⏹️ ▶️ John Are they based on the A19 thing from our phones right now or are they based on last year’s phone? Please write in
⏹️ ▶️ John and let us know. But either way, like Mark said, the CPUs, even though they’re not the story, Apple touts them because, hey, they are the fastest
⏹️ ▶️ John ever by, you know, by a measurable amount. But really the GPU is the big boost.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I didn’t find any really big power numbers for this, but it seems like the
⏹️ ▶️ John power usage is, because one of the knocks on the N3P process that these are presumably
⏹️ ▶️ John using is that it didn’t offer big power savings over the previous three nanometer process.
⏹️ ▶️ John So where are they getting, you know, the extra power from, the extra computing
⏹️ ▶️ John performance from, are they spending more power to do that? And based on the products that we’re gonna get to in a second, it doesn’t look
⏹️ ▶️ John like the M5, the plain old M5 is particularly more power hungry than the plain old M4. So
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, we’ll see the benchmarks when they come out, but so far the M5 is looking like what we thought it would. And
⏹️ ▶️ John if you care about GPU and AI performance, it’s a nice little chip.
M5 Pro/Max theories
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the M5 Pro, M5 Max, and other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey chips, we are theorizing might have some different tech in it. So Ming-Chi Kuo wrote in December of 2024,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the M5 Pro, Max, and Ultra will utilize server-grade SOIC packaging,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey system on integrated chips. Apple will use 2.5D packaging called SOIC-MH,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or molding horizontal, to improve production yields and thermal performance, featuring separate CPU and GPU
⏹️ ▶️ Casey designs. John, what does that mean in English?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, first thing it means is, hey, they released, as we’ll see in a second, M5 MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John Where are the MacBook Pros that have the M5 Pro and the M5 Max? They’re not here.
⏹️ ▶️ John That was in the past couple of weeks, the rumor has been they’re gonna release an M5 MacBook Pro, which they did,
⏹️ ▶️ John but not the one that has an M5 Pro and M5 Max. And why are those delayed and the M5 is
⏹️ ▶️ John not delayed? The rumor, theory, whatever, is that the M5 Pro when M5
⏹️ ▶️ John Macs use this TSMC’s SOIC technology, which we’ll detail a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ John in a second. And that’s newish and they’re having problems with the yield or it’s a little bit delayed
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. That’s why the more powerful M5-based MacBook Pros have
⏹️ ▶️ John been pushed off into early 2026. So that explains the staggered schedule. If the chips are ready,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think Apple would have launched them. They’re not, they’ll be ready early next year. But yeah, again,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is not, you know, Apple’s not gonna comment on this, that’s been the theory for a while.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so tell me about this SOIC thing, please.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m trying to make a hazard of the language on TSMC’s website to try and find an authoritative source for this. This is what
⏹️ ▶️ John they have to say. TSMC SOIC features ultra-high-density vertical stacking for high-performance, low-power,
⏹️ ▶️ John minimum resistance inductance and capacitance. It features heterogeneous integration of known good dies
⏹️ ▶️ John with different chip sizes, functionalities, and wafer node technologies. Boy, this is such business speak.
⏹️ ▶️ John Integrates both homogenous and heterogeneous chiplets into a single SOC-like chip with a smaller footprint thinner
⏹️ ▶️ John profile this chip can holistically be holistically integrated into here we go cow
⏹️ ▶️ John os which is chip on a wafer on substrate or info which is integrated
⏹️ ▶️ John fan out package from the outside the integrated chip looks like an ordinary soc but on the inside
⏹️ ▶️ John it is embedded with heterogeneous heterogeneously integrated functionalities
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco now here’s my
⏹️ ▶️ John and we’ll link to the web page you can see they have diagrams in the web page that try to explain this,
⏹️ ▶️ John with a little diagram of what a plain SOC looks like and what an SOIC looks like
⏹️ ▶️ John in both the COWOS and INFO underscore POP, which is integrated fan out
⏹️ ▶️ John package on package, of course. How could
⏹️ ▶️ John else? I mean, I swear that one of their acronyms, that their acronyms mix capital and lowercase
⏹️ ▶️ John letters to try to, you know, the ofs are or lowercase O’s, right? And the, the
⏹️ ▶️ John I-N-F-O, I guess the I-N, the N is the N from integrated. And they use an underscore,
⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes they use a hyphen. Anyway, not great nomenclature, but my
⏹️ ▶️ John understanding of this technology before I looked all this stuff up was that this is something that would let
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple essentially fab the, like the, fab the GPU part
⏹️ ▶️ John as its own little, you know, thing on the, on the silicon wafer.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also fab like the other stuff as a separate thing, because the bigger you make like your single
⏹️ ▶️ John unit thing that you’re fabbing, the more chance you have errors in the lower your yields are, right? If you made one
⏹️ ▶️ John very tiny thing, uh, chances of an error landing that are small. If you make one humongous thing, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, there’s going to be way more errors in there. So Apple’s SOCs
⏹️ ▶️ John are very often, you know, or have been historically a single die that has the CPU, the GPU,
⏹️ ▶️ John the display driver, the storage driver, the neural engine, like everything is all on one die. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John one thing of silicon on the silicon wafer and you cut it out as a little rectangle and either
⏹️ ▶️ John everything on that rectangle works or some of its broken or whatever and the bigger you make that rectangle the more expensive it gets because the yields
⏹️ ▶️ John go down. So my understanding before reading this was SOIC is gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John let them make one rectangle for the GPU that’s smaller than the whole SoC now,
⏹️ ▶️ John and one rectangle for the other stuff that’s also smaller than the SoC now, so you have better yields on those individual things,
⏹️ ▶️ John but you’ll be able to take those two things and combine them, squish them together vertically on top of each
⏹️ ▶️ John other, so that they perform and behave as if they were one big rectangle, but they take
⏹️ ▶️ John up less room, and you get better yields because you don’t have to fab the whole thing in one go and make
⏹️ ▶️ John sure it’s all perfect. After reading this, I’m not sure if that’s right anymore,
⏹️ ▶️ John because they explain it in such, you know, with such language that with terms that I’m, you know, probably terms of
⏹️ ▶️ John art that I’m not familiar with, but also big long words in business speak. And even look at their diagrams,
⏹️ ▶️ John like look at the, the C-C-O-W-O-S-S-O-I-C
⏹️ ▶️ John one, doesn’t, it’s like S-O-C-1, S-O-C-2, S-O-C-3, are all on top of each other. And then the memory’s next to
⏹️ ▶️ John it. This is like the Mac ones. The Mac ones have the high bandwidth memory, like next to the SoC. And then I
⏹️ ▶️ John think the InfoPop ones, the integrated fan out package on package, I think that’s what like the phones
⏹️ ▶️ John are like, where the RAM is on top of them. But either way, I see three small SoCs, like three small
⏹️ ▶️ John dies combining to make one thing, whereas the old way was one die for
⏹️ ▶️ John SoC. So maybe I’m right, I don’t know. Anyway, we’ll find out when Apple releases the M5 Pro and the M5
⏹️ ▶️ John Max, if they use this new technology. If they do, it should let Apple essentially
⏹️ ▶️ John make them more cheaply and have fewer ones that have binned parts in them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Especially… here we go again. Especially if they were ever to make a really big, really powerful chip
⏹️ ▶️ John that would be prohibitively expensive to do as a single chip on a die, you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey why would they ever do that? Who would want that?
⏹️ ▶️ John With a huge number of cores, it’s so hard to fab one giant chip like that and have everything work
⏹️ ▶️ John on it. But what if you could fab just the GPU part, simply from the CPU part, double your yields because now you’re having
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Just a fantasy I’m sure. It’s just a
M5 14” MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s talk M5 MacBook Pro because we did get one of them at least.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The M5, this is only the M5, not M5 Pro, not M5 Max, certainly not M5 Ultra
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or anything like that. The case appears to be about the same as far as I can tell. The M5 itself,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey again, 10-core CPU, excuse me, for performance, 6 efficiency, 10-core GPU as well. There
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are currently no binned versions as far as we can tell. Apple has said, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a breakthrough for M1 and Intel-based upgraders. Interesting.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, see, they’ve moved the window. What we’ve seen is that ever since
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M-series chips came out, five years ago now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve been very aggressively touting, like, look at how much faster it is than Intel and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco our Intel base Macs that came before us. And then over the five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years since the M1 was released, they kept comparing everything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Intel. And they kept saying, you know, here’s the new brand new M2.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s this much faster than Intel. Here’s the brand new M3. It’s this much faster than Intel. And they kept going.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, you know, we’ve all assumed like this is basically like they’re trying to get upgraders. They’re trying to like recognize
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that people keep laptops for a pretty long time these days and they’re trying to say, hey, if you’re still using
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this old Intel piece of crap, you know, upgrade to our awesome, shiny new M chips.
⏹️ ▶️ John the way, they were right. They were. Like this is not BS. Like if you were still using
⏹️ ▶️ John an Intel Mac and they’re trying, you like, I know it’s hard because everyone knows that, but everything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know John, who would still be using an Intel Mac today?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I know, I know, I know. But like, I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know it’s the silliest thing to be doing, but like,
⏹️ ▶️ John but if you had like an Intel iMac and you think, honestly, how much better is like an M2 iMac
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna be than my Intel one? A lot,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey a huge amount that you will notice. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John so anyway, I understand, it got ridiculous because it’s like, okay, even if you weren’t comparing to Intel,
⏹️ ▶️ John comparing to like a four year old CPU. Well, you better be faster. But yeah, that was
⏹️ ▶️ John their message. But yeah, their message has now shifted.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, this is the first time they’re using that kind of like reaching far back upgrade relativism
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to apply to an M chip. Because the M1, even though it was incredibly awesome,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was five years ago. And the M chips, as I said earlier, like they get substantially better
⏹️ ▶️ Marco each iteration. So we’re now up to M5, it’s really fast,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even compared to M1. And it does seem ridiculous to still compare it to Intel now at this point. So now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re finally saying, hey, if you’ve been holding on to that ancient M1 that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we, aren’t they still selling it at Walmart? Is that still
⏹️ ▶️ John here’s the problem with this comparison. The M1 is actually still pretty good for a lot of things. Like it’s not, if you have some
⏹️ ▶️ John fanless M1 MacBook Air that you’re still using, like if it still works, it’s probably
⏹️ ▶️ John fine. And that’s a problem for Apple. They’re like, you know, if you make really good computing products, They last longer and Apple wants
⏹️ ▶️ John you to eventually buy a new one, you know, right? But the M1 is just so much. There was such a leap
⏹️ ▶️ John from the Intel, especially for things like laptops, like or like fanless laptops, like the fanless M1 MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Air compared to the Intel MacBook Air that was before it. It’s just such a night and day difference.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I have an M1 MacBook Air on my desk here and it’s still it’s still fine. But anyway, there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s still the one that that’s the one they’re still selling of Walmart. But like if you have like a higher end
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one, you know, you have You have things like fans, you have larger dies. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more heat is going through that kind of enclosure, and so the idea, those tend to die
⏹️ ▶️ Marco earlier than the lower end ones. The lower end is simpler, the less powerful, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco less hot your machine is, the more likely it is generally to last longer, especially
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if there’s no moving parts, like no fans. So yeah, those M1 MacBook Airs,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s probably a lot of them still kicking. They’re gonna start having problems. The batteries are gonna wear out. They’ll start having like keyboard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems, like just from age. Like, you know, so the reality is the M1 is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, pretty old at this point, even though it was so awesome and still is, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco awfully good compared to what a lot of things can do now. But the reality is they’ve come a long way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the modern M chips are so much faster that they’re now saying, listen, even if you came along
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with us five years ago with the M1 and got that big leap, now there’s another big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco leap next time you upgrade. hey, why don’t you do it now? And they’re not wrong. Like, you know, if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would use that performance or if you need the upgrade, it is a massive upgrade from where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we were back then. Yeah, the
⏹️ ▶️ John compounding a couple percent each year or whatever on everything adds up to this copy in their marketing.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And it’s not a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco couple percent each year. It’s like 20 percent. It’s a lot. It
⏹️ ▶️ John depends. But anyway, M1 upgraders will experience up to six times faster AI performance,
⏹️ ▶️ John up to six point eight times faster GPU performance with with ray tracing and up to two times faster CPU performance.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now, the ray tracing, obviously there was no ray tracing hardware in the old ones than there is now, so that feels kind of unfair or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John and who will even use that, but the CPU one, they’ve doubled it. Like the M5 is basically
⏹️ ▶️ John twice as fast in CPU as the M1. So between M1 and M5, they doubled, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John pretty darn good. That is a good compounding of gains over years. Still think the M1 is pretty good, but
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the curse of making a really good product is it’s harder to top yourself.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and your AI will run a little bit faster as you load chatgpt.com in your web
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, so breaking down the different options that you can have 16, 24, 32 gigs of RAM. You can have a half gig, excuse me,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey half terabyte through four terabytes that is less than
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the bigger models that are currently available. And additionally, you can get up to two times faster
⏹️ ▶️ Casey SSD performance than the prior generation. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s cool. You’ll see that claim in basically all the M5 based products. I’m not sure what it’s based on. I saw one thing that
⏹️ ▶️ John said it’s based on them using a newer storage technology, a newer storage standard. So we’ll find out when people benchmark
⏹️ ▶️ John these, but that is one of the claims. M5, you get two times faster SSD performance than the M4.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think when they say up to two times faster, do you think they mean only certain configurations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or only under certain conditions?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s the question. Like, oh, do I need to get the four terabyte model to do that? Is it one to two versus
⏹️ ▶️ John two chip thing? Remember, but they undid that. Like they did that a while ago and then they said, no, but they fixed it. And they said,
⏹️ ▶️ John no, everybody’s gonna get good performance in the two chips. Do some of them have four chips? So we’ll find this out when they start testing
⏹️ ▶️ John them. But that is the quote, up to two times faster SSD performance than these M5-based products.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They are offering the nanotexture display for 150 bucks. Yes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco let me just say, I got the M4 version of this like a year ago, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s so good. No, stop, I don’t wanna hear this because I don’t have it and I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco huge reason why is that nanotexture screen. It is, if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you actually like are taking your laptop around out in the world, I cannot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more highly recommend the nanotexture screen. It’s so incredibly good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was one of the reasons why I upgraded from my M2 MacBook Air to this M4 14 inch MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I will not go back for the screen alone. It is so useful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re like on you know mass transit, like you know you’re sitting next to a window, it’s somewhere,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s so good. Strongly recommend Nanotexture.
⏹️ ▶️ John A lot of people don’t like the fingerprint difficulty. It’s hard to get fingerprints on that screen. It’s hard to get them off, even with the polishing cloths
⏹️ ▶️ John that comes with it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I, for whatever it’s worth, I have not found Nanotexture to be harder to clean
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the regular shiny screens have always been. Like, you know, when you get like that one slight
⏹️ ▶️ Marco row of keyboard imprint on it, you’re like, uh-oh, I better, you know, catch up to that before it gets out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of hand. You know, you get the microfiber, you get the spray, whatever it is like it’s it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hard to clean but so are all of their screens like so and and as long as you are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not like a monster constantly touching your screen it’s it’s not gonna look dirty
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah that’s the problem with the nanotexture iPad which we’ll get in a second because you touch that one so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well I believe so do we have info so like I believe with the iPad didn’t they like put the coating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the underside of the glass or something
⏹️ ▶️ John no no but the three 3 nanotexture coating, 3 nanotexture screens
⏹️ ▶️ John they offer, the XDR, the MacBook Pro, and the iPad I believe are 3 different, I believe that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John right, things. I don’t know if they’re different technologies, but if you look at the 3 of them under a microscope I believe
⏹️ ▶️ John you could distinguish them. And so I think they did try to make the iPad one, I think it has like,
⏹️ ▶️ John essentially a rougher texture like bigger divots instead of tiny ones, and maybe that makes
⏹️ ▶️ John it easier to clean, but you know, everything’s relative. I’m glad that I don’t actually
⏹️ ▶️ John like the nanotexture one, but what Marco’s talking about is, even if you don’t like the nanotexture, even if you don’t like how it looks,
⏹️ ▶️ John it does have advantages if you’re in uncontrolled lighting situations, like on the go with your laptop, because sometimes the
⏹️ ▶️ John glare from the glossy ones, and if you can’t control where you are, you’re on a train and the light’s coming in through the window, you just literally
⏹️ ▶️ John can’t see your screen on a glossy screen, and there’s nothing you can do about that, and the nanotexture helps there. So I
⏹️ ▶️ John understand the attraction to it, I just don’t actually like how it looks.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The interfaces, you can get Wi-Fi 6E, it still has, I guess I should say Wi-Fi
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 6E, it’s still Bluetooth 5.3, and it’s still Thunderbolt 4, not Thunderbolt 5, interestingly.
⏹️ ▶️ John It makes sense for the base M5, like I’m not kind of sure. The Wi-Fi 6E one annoys me, as we’ll see
⏹️ ▶️ John in a little bit, because, you know, we know Apple has ways to get better Wi-Fi and
⏹️ ▶️ John Bluetooth, but not in the base M5 MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Seems not. The power adapter, you get a 70 watt power adapter standard, unless
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re in the EU, in which case you get nothing. Good day, sir. You can add the 96-watt power
⏹️ ▶️ Casey adapter for an additional 20 bucks. Building on what I was saying a moment ago from Mac rumors,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s no power adapter in the box in European countries, including the UK, Ireland, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, the Netherlands,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Norway, and others, according to Apple’s online store. An Apple spokesperson told
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the French website Numerama, Nicolas Lelouch,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s go with that, I can’t do French. I can barely do English. That the decision to not include a charger with this particular MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is made in anticipation of a European regulation that will require Apple to provide customers with the option to purchase
⏹️ ▶️ Casey certain devices without a charger in the box starting in April. Apple does still include the USB
⏹️ ▶️ Casey safe to MagSafe 3 cable in the box, however.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so you get the cable, you just don’t get the thing that you plug the cable into. So you, like the MagSafe cable,
⏹️ ▶️ John because these have MagSafe on them. So you need the cable that has that end to magnetize to the power port.
⏹️ ▶️ John Of course, you can just use the USB-C port as well, But anyway, that’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it would have been nice if Apple gave an option to get the charging thing, but they don’t, you just don’t get it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, they do. The option is you could pay for it.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I guess, but like, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John have it in the box or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, it’s, I understand, you know, Apple’s kind of, I know they’re no fan of the EU
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but, you know, they, instead of cutting the price by, you know, 30 pounds or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever, they just said, oh, fine, okay, we’ll just make it optional. So it’s effectively a price raise. Like that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John what this means.
⏹️ ▶️ John Passing the savings on to you is not a phrase that’s in Apple’s vocabulary. Oh, definitely not.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Certainly not indeed. All right, the colors, prepare yourselves. This
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a really shocking development from Apple. The colors are as follows, silver
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, no change there. It’s a MacBook Pro. We know what that means. That means they will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco occasionally, about every five years, design a new shade of black for you. And otherwise,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s it. You can get black or silver.
⏹️ ▶️ John The OLED ones that are coming in 2027 will come in a cosmic orange and you’ll love it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my God, that’ll be amazing. I would upgrade just for that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that would be a little bit too much orange for my taste, but you know, I would approve of it being a thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I actually, I use orange, like so my desktop Mac, I just use
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the regular Mac multicolor color scheme. On my to-go Mac
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with this nanotexture screen, I use orange as the system accent color. Just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like some fun, some variety.
⏹️ ▶️ John So every app feels like Overcast?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s really fun actually. Like I’ve never used the accent color in any other Macs before.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I’m like, you know, for this one, because it’s like a different computer, it’s a different size, I use a different wallpaper
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it, I have a few different settings on it, that I auto hide the dock
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on that one, but not on my desktop because the monitor’s huge. And so that’s the one, I’m like, let
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me also make this accent color orange. And that one has Tahoe and my desktop still does not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s kind of fun to have this all new experience whenever I’m on the go. It’s nice.
⏹️ ▶️ John Do you remember the original iMacs that came with those themes? Or they would come with, you could change the accent
⏹️ ▶️ John color, obviously it was just part of classic Mac OS, but also they came with desktop backgrounds to match those. Remember it was like the Flying Saucers?
⏹️ ▶️ John This may have been before your time, but Apple has done this where they, I mean, they kind of do it with the current iMacs where they will, everything is
⏹️ ▶️ John themed, including the software part of it. It’s fun if you’ve never done that, but the theme ability of Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John OS has really gone downhill over the years.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey too bad. The price is starting at $1,600. You can pre-order it as we speak.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’ll be in stores on October 22nd, which interestingly is a Wednesday. It’s not a Friday
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as it often is. It’s a Wednesday.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let me, well, before we leave the subject of this base model MacBook Pro 14 inch, let me just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also say that, you know, when I got this, you know, I was trying to choose, should I should I get like a super fast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one like an M4 Pro or Max and decided to look at the base M4
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in large part because the M4 is really fast and it actually if you look at the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco M4 Pro and Max for CPU it doesn’t actually scale
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up that well. It’s much more of a GPU piece as you scale it up but CPU does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not actually scale amazingly linearly with those core counts. And it’s like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco base is so good. The base M4 is so good. And you get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amazing battery life for it. You get all the other benefits of the Pro. You get like, you know, the nicer screen, the nicer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco speakers, nicer microphones, you get like all the ports, you get the SD cards, like it’s an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amazing overall machine. But you still, but you have a lower
⏹️ ▶️ Marco price, you have better battery life, like it’s a great overall combo. This new M5 14-inch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Pro looks to basically be the identical machine with the M5 instead. Everything else looks basically the same.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I can strongly recommend this machine overall. We haven’t yet seen, as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco discussed earlier, we haven’t yet seen what the M5 Pro and Max chips will be or whatever their equivalents are.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We haven’t seen that yet. And maybe there’ll be amazing performance monsters, probably. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you don’t necessarily think you need that, or if you’re coming from, if you compare the performance of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M4 and M5 base models to like the M2
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Max or the M3 Max, it compares very well, surprisingly,
⏹️ ▶️ John it was such a leap. I think, uh, what’s his name? The, what’s the Lucas M something
⏹️ ▶️ John that who’s the YouTuber that I’m thinking of? He’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know who you’re thinking of. I can’t remember his name.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think he did a video just today where he was benchmarking the base, just the plain old M5
⏹️ ▶️ John versus an M4 Pro and the M5 beaded and almost everything. So that’s not two generations old. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the plain M5 beating the previous generation M4 Pro. So that is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And those destroy anything from the M1 through three generations, which themselves were very fast. So like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what I’m saying is this machine could be right for you. Like this machine is right for a lot of people. It
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has been amazingly right for me as my on the go machine. And it’s fast enough that if I needed it to be, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could be my only machine. It’s that good. And so the M5 version makes that even better, especially
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the GPU side, but you know, it’s even better. So this is a solid all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco arounder. And if you are in need of something anywhere close to this combination,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would strongly recommend checking it out. And if you ever work in the sun, get in a texture.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is the last hurrah of this design, too, probably because everyone expects when the old ones
⏹️ ▶️ John come, which is going to be the M6 ones, most likely that they’ll redesign the case. Right. So if you like
⏹️ ▶️ John this case, this was the last best one to get with this case design
⏹️ ▶️ John or this this generation of the M5 generation. Maybe the M6, obviously the OLED will be
⏹️ ▶️ John amazing and that’ll be very attractive and you might want to wait for that model, but if you don’t care about OLED and you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John worried that you’re not going to like whatever they do to the design in the next one, it’s another possible reason to get like
⏹️ ▶️ John the last one of this generation before they have generational turnover.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Off the top of your head, do you folks remember what is the display limitations for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey vanilla versus pro versus max chips? Because I remember early on you had to have like the Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or the Max to have, you know, more than a couple displays. Do you happen to remember offhand where that is now?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, they fixed that in the M3 or M4 generation. Well, that’s why I was asking. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t put the display specs in here. I didn’t have time to look that up, but I would imagine it’s the same as the M4, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s two external displays for this one. We can look it up.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I tried to look it up quickly using the compare thing on the app on the store and I couldn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get a clear answer quickly as we recorded. But I was thinking, you know, What drives me to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Max? I currently have an M3 Max. If I were to go tomorrow, could I just get a vanilla
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M5? And the things that I was thinking about was, I have an 8-terabyte drive for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasons that I stand by, but I’m not interested in litigating right now. And I think that that might require either a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey three external displays, and that used to require a Pro or a Max?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it still does. This one says on Apple’s M5 Macro Pro says, it’s up to two
⏹️ ▶️ John external displays, with 6K resolution at 60 Hertz. So there’s no three displays connecting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so then that would need either a Pro or a Max. Well, it
⏹️ ▶️ John or one external display, 6K resolution over Thunderbolt, and one external with HDMI, so that’s still just two.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re not all Thunderbolt, I believe you get some bonuses here and there, because the HDMI does count as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the outputs. But yeah, generally speaking, what you’re looking at is like, if you need a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of RAM or a lot of storage or a lot of GPU power or a lot of monitors.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that’s- Oh, that’s something I
⏹️ ▶️ John forgot to mention before I should have put in the notes. The SOIC thing for the supposed M5 Pro and M5
⏹️ ▶️ John Max. Soik! One of the other,
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t think this is true, but before things are announced, people can have their hopes and fantasies. And one of the hopes
⏹️ ▶️ John and fantasies is that if you make the M5 Pro and M5 Max of a bunch of individually
⏹️ ▶️ John made dies and combine them into one big SoC. In theory,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t really buy this, but in theory it would allow Apple to divorce the
⏹️ ▶️ John beefiness of the CPU from the beefiness of the GPU because they can mix and match.
⏹️ ▶️ John practice, A, I don’t think Apple would do that, and B, I’m not sure how much flexibility there is because the way they get
⏹️ ▶️ John connected together seems very intimate and regimented because it’s not like someone joked in their
⏹️ ▶️ John thing like, imagine if they had the GPU on a separate card from the CPU, like in the old days when they were separated.
⏹️ ▶️ John The whole point of Apple’s architecture is like, they’re so close to each other or
⏹️ ▶️ John on the same die because there are performance benefits. So this SOIC thing is not like, oh, just have separate CPU
⏹️ ▶️ John and GPU again. They’re literally on top of each other. They’re touching each other. So they’re trying to get
⏹️ ▶️ John all the performance, power, latency, so on and so forth, benefits of having an all in one die
⏹️ ▶️ John while still being able to fab them separately. I don’t think Apple will mix and match because someone’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John I want a really big GPU but I don’t need this freaking you know 28 core CPU can
⏹️ ▶️ John I get a smaller core count on the CPU but the biggest GPU and you can now
⏹️ ▶️ John fantasize that that will be possible with this SOIC thing, I just don’t think Apple will do it, but there’s
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M5 iPad Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then they also announced the M5 iPad Pro. This is going
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be a little bit interesting. So models with one terabyte, excuse me, less than one terabyte of storage,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting nine core CPU, three performance, which is down one from the M5 MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and six efficiency. They get 12 gigs of RAM. Models with one terabyte or two terabytes of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey storage get a 10 core CPU with four performance, efficiency like the M5 MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and 16 gigs of RAM. And all of the models share a 10-core GPU.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was trying to figure out also, I got out of time constraints, the fact that there’s no binned M5
⏹️ ▶️ John for the MacBook Pro. Because we just read there’s binned, binned based on storage, which is so weird, but whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’ve been doing it this way on the iPad Pro. If you get less storage, you get a binned M5 on the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. But no matter what M5 MacBook Pro you get, they’re all, everything, all the cores work on all
⏹️ ▶️ John of them. Did they They do that with the M4 as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, the M4. So when you get to the MacBook Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco family, the base model M chip is considered the lowest end option. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they give you like the best one of those. And but like in the,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whenever they inevitably release like an M5 MacBook Air, for instance, there will be almost certainly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco binned base M5s in the low end configuration of the MacBook Air. But once you get to the Pro, it was always
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, all right, the base M chip, this is always the best version of that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Then you can get binned M4 Pros and binned M4 Maxes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can still today buy binned M4 Pros. Do Maxes, do they bin those too? I think they do this time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They don’t always. Yeah, I think they do.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, because the bigger you make the chip, the more likely there’s gonna be some flaw somewhere and they wanna be able to make money of those so they’ll sell the
⏹️ ▶️ John binned ones. Exactly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to actually get, this is part of what I’m saying about, if you actually,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you don’t need massive GPU performance, when you look at the CPU performance
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like the the base m4 and compare it to the m4 pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially the binned m4 pros that you get for going like a few hundred dollars up you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually not having that big of a gain and then to get the full cores of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the pro chip it’s like $800 more than the cost of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the base chip model here. So you end up paying a large premium
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for some more CPU performance. But it’s actually like the base model
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chip is where all the value is. Like if you’re trying to maximize bang for your buck, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. It’s the base model M4 or M5. That’s it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So with the M5 iPad Pro you get up to two times faster storage
⏹️ ▶️ Casey read and write speeds. You get the C1X in the cellular version, you get the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey N1 for Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6 and Thread, which John, that is different from the M5
⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook Pro because that was Wi-Fi 6, right? I can’t scroll that quickly. John
⏹️ ▶️ John 6E. 6E, thank you. The Macs have been stuck. The Macs have not had Wi-Fi 7 and we’re hoping with the M5 generation they
⏹️ ▶️ John would get Wi-Fi 7. Well, maybe they still will, but not the base M5 MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John But the M5 iPad Pro does get all the new fancy chips from the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John Air. It gets the C1X, It gets the N1. The N1 was used in all the new phones. Why didn’t they put the N1
⏹️ ▶️ John in the M5 MacBook Pro? I don’t know, but they didn’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you get, like I said, Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6 and Thread. You can drive external displays with this as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you could before, except at up to 120 Hertz. Interesting.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And additionally, it supports Adaptive Sync for lower latency. You can fast charge
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up to 50% in about half an hour with a 40 watt adapter or higher. There are the same sizes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and same weights as the M4 models, 11-inch and 13-inch. The nanotexture is a $100 option,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’s only available on the 1- and 2-terabyte models. The storage options, speaking of, are 256, 512,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 1- and 2-terabytes. The price starts at $1,000 for Wi-Fi with 256 gigs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Again, pre-ordered today, in stores a week from today as we record this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so that is the new M5 iPad Pro. John, are you buying one?
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, no. I mean, like, so I, again, I use my iPad. I bought
⏹️ ▶️ John it when they got the OLED screen because I use it as a little TV. This has the same screen, so I have no reason to get this.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not an iPad power user, but it’s a good iPad. If you want, if you didn’t buy
⏹️ ▶️ John an M4 OLED one and you want a little TV, this is great. I highly recommend it. And if you want a
⏹️ ▶️ John powerful iPad because you’re that kind of person, this one’s even better than the M4 one. Didn’t change anything else about it. There were
⏹️ ▶️ John some rumors like, oh, they’re they’re gonna add a second camera. So there’s one on the long edge and one on the short edge. They didn’t do
⏹️ ▶️ John that. If you have to characterize this whole set of announcements like take our existing
⏹️ ▶️ John products that had other chips in them and put an M5s and don’t change much else. I’m actually kind of surprised
⏹️ ▶️ John that they swapped in the C1X and the N1, but I guess in a low power device, like an iPad, they figured it
⏹️ ▶️ John was worth it. Whereas in the MacBook Pro, they’re like, ah, it’s the base MacBook Pro and we got a big battery
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway. I don’t know what the thing is. It’s been a shame that the Macs have been kept out the WiFi 7
⏹️ ▶️ John family for so long, and it still seems to continue. I’ll be really disappointed if the M5 Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John and Macs, MacBook Pros that are released next year also don’t have WiFi 7. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the time has come for that, but we’ll see. I think this new iPad,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it looks, and we’ll get to this in the Vision Pro segment in a second, probably, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is exactly a speed bump update, again, just like the M5 MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a speed bump update and it’s to a really good speed. And it’s to a product that is already, like you know, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad and the MacBook Pro, these are already really great products, really high end,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great performance, great everything. If you happen to use this product
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and need a really nice one, that’s a really nice one. The iPad Pro is not something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really use, so I don’t have much else to say about it because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve pushed the hardware and the price so far up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I feel like if you’re buying this, you probably really like it a lot and really use it a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And neither of those are really the case for me, but it looks like a really good update for people for whom it is the case.
M5 Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The time has come. The M5 Apple Vision Pro is here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is the first revision of the Vision Pro since it came out in what, February of 24? Do I have that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? Something like that. And so we’re reading from Apple’s newsroom. With M5, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Vision Pro renders 10% more pixels on the custom micro OLED displays compared to the previous generation,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey resulting in a sharper image with crisper text mark alignment and more detailed visuals. Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro can also increase the refresh rate up to 120 Hertz for reduced motion blur when users look at their physical surroundings
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and an even smoother experience when using Mac virtual display.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And The Verge writes, the previous maximum refresh rate was 100 Hertz. Also AI powered features like persona
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or spatial photos are up to 50% faster. And the battery life is also improved by about 30 minutes to about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey two and a half hours of general use and three hours of video playback.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s nice that you do get a battery life bump in this because it seems like they basically
⏹️ ▶️ John only changed the SoC And I guess the M2 is old and this is three nanometer and whatever the M2 was, that
⏹️ ▶️ John can make some sense. But anyway, the bit about rendering 10% more pixels on the screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John the way I interpret that and Apple hasn’t said anything to negate
⏹️ ▶️ John this is that the screens are the same, like the hardware, the actual hardware, those are exactly the same as they’ve ever been.
⏹️ ▶️ John But kind of like when you’re used to playing video games, there is a difference between the render resolution and the display
⏹️ ▶️ John resolution. So internally, a game, for example, can render the scene at some
⏹️ ▶️ John resolution. But then when it comes time to display it, it may have rendered it at a smaller
⏹️ ▶️ John resolution than your screen, or it may have rendered it at a bigger resolution than your screen, and it will scale it either up
⏹️ ▶️ John or down to fit the display. And my understanding of the statement is that they are going to have
⏹️ ▶️ John a 10% larger, 10% more pixels in their render resolution before they say,
⏹️ ▶️ John okay, now display this on the eye displays. And I’m assuming they’re mostly scaling
⏹️ ▶️ John up to the eye displays, because as Marco has pointed out in the past, like they don’t have even resolution distribution,
⏹️ ▶️ John like you have more pixel density in the center, again, not the hardware, that software wise, like when they
⏹️ ▶️ John have the image that they’re showing you, the image of the world or the images of your windows floating in the world or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John they render it with more detail in the part where you’re, first of all, they have foveated rendering, which is like
⏹️ ▶️ John tracks where you’re looking and renders it more detailed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly, that’s kind of what I assumed this was referring to. I thought they were saying, I mean, again, we don’t know yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I assumed by saying 10% more pixels, I thought maybe they’re gonna just increase the size
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the foveated in focus range
⏹️ ▶️ John bit. Right, it all amounts to the same thing, because if you take the image that they eventually display, it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John like a normal rectangular looking image, it’s some weird warp thing that they, you know, put through the lenses and
⏹️ ▶️ John everything like, so if you spend more pixels, if you’re gonna make the foveated rendering area bigger,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’d have to spend more pixels to render more information there before it gets squished down. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, so that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m assuming they’re doing, that they’re, their render target, like internally
⏹️ ▶️ John in memory has 10% more pixels, but then they take that image and squish it down onto the same screen they
⏹️ ▶️ John always had. Now where those pixels end up, probably they added more in the center. Maybe they added more detail around the edges
⏹️ ▶️ John so the edges aren’t as blurry as they were. I don’t know. Um, maybe when somebody gets one of these and starts to test it,
⏹️ ▶️ John they can figure it out. Either way, 10% is not a lot. Um, so I wouldn’t expect miracles from this, like
⏹️ ▶️ John clearer text or whatever. Maybe it’s better, but like, they didn’t change the screens, it seems like. If they had, I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ John they would be touting that. Like the micro LED displays are exactly the same as they were on the original Vision Pro, according to
⏹️ ▶️ John everything that Apple has put out today.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is not at all what I got from this announcement. I assumed it meant that the displays were a little bit bigger, but you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably right. And I’m probably wrong, to be honest with you. But
⏹️ ▶️ John are bigger, I mean, that’ll, that’ll, as soon as someone gets one of these and breaks it up and we’ll find out, like if they’re, if the screens are 10% bigger,
⏹️ ▶️ John that should be pretty obvious with someone with a ruler.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t think they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would have used the term pixels. And like, you know, so that’s I it seems like they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have made a couple of improvements to the displays that I think we’re actually not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rumored at all. Like, you know, the rumors were like, it’ll be an M5 update. Okay, no one knew anything about it. Really? Oh, and the strap
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was rumored to but it seems like, you know, whatever the 10% more pixels which I’m pretty sure is the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco foveated rendering thing, but we’ll find out they’re rendering more of that. And I think one of the interesting parts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is they said that they are they’re officially saying 120 Hertz now which is what the up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to level of the screen which I believe it was not discussed before but I think it was 90
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the first generation one
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco oh right sorry under
⏹️ ▶️ John previous maximum was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 100 okay and then they also said that the pass-through video now runs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at a higher refresh rate which that’s been one of the areas that like if you ever used a meta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quest headset and then you use a vision Pro you’re like wow the the The MetaQuest, like it’s much lower resolution,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the pass-through video is so fast and so smooth
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that’s something that’s made to be used with the user in constant motion. If you’re playing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco games, you are in constant motion. So the pass-through video experience is very important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be very fast, very low latency. And that’s something that the first generation Vision Pro, I always noticed that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, this is obviously a device made to be used just when the user is stationary, when you are sitting on a couch or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something. and the pass-through video was always a little bit smeary and blurry and laggy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s still, you know, the resolution of it was way better than the Quest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco series headsets, but the motion was not. So this sounds like they’ve made a substantial
⏹️ ▶️ Marco improvement to the pass-through video as well. I am interested to hear about that, like whenever we know somebody who has one of these things,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m definitely not buying one, but whenever we know somebody who has one, I am curious just to hear like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much better is the pass-through motion than it was before?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and the up to is key here. Like, swapping out the M2 to the M5, the M5 is more powerful. It’s got
⏹️ ▶️ John more powerful everything in it. So to the extent that the M2 was holding it back from maintaining that
⏹️ ▶️ John maximum of 100 hertz, because I think 100 hertz would look smooth, but it’s up to, like it’s the maximum. So
⏹️ ▶️ John if things get laggy or whatever, it’s gonna update it at a lower refresh rate. So hopefully, not only will this
⏹️ ▶️ John be able to reach a higher peak of 120 instead of 100, but it’ll be able to sustain a higher one without
⏹️ ▶️ John taxing the SoC, because again, we’ve made a lot of progress from the M2 to the M5. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John reaping the benefits from that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so it still uses the original R1. It comes with Apple’s new 40
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to 60 watt dynamic power adapter. It is still on Wi-Fi 6 and Bluetooth 5.3.
⏹️ ▶️ John even 6E, because the Vision Pro had Wi-Fi 6, not 6E. So no change there from
⏹️ ▶️ John the launch version.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pricing, storage, and RAM are also unchanged. You can pre-order today as with the other devices in store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Wednesday the 22nd. And also, dear Vision Pro, original Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro owners, get speed, love Apple, because you cannot trade in your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey original M2 Vision Pro. Sorry about that, womp womp, but tough noogies.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, maybe they’ll change that, but yeah, that’s disappointing because I bet they’d get a lot of takers.
⏹️ ▶️ John The biggest fans of the thing are like, well, I love this thing, but I’m not going to pay another $3,000 or $4,000. Can I trade this in?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t, I mean, we’ll get to the, I guess we’ll get to the skepticism in a minute,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but like I just frankly I don’t think there’s gonna be that many people who are rushing to upgrade.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if you spent $3,500 plus
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on this thing two years ago, I can’t imagine that you’re like I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gotten so much value out of that, I definitely want to spend another $3,500
⏹️ ▶️ Marco plus on the next one already so soon with not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantially more content or apps than we had two years ago. I think that’s going to be a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tough sell. I think this does not feel like an update to expand
⏹️ ▶️ Marco its market for lots of reasons. This feels like an update to keep the product alive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a little while longer while they figure out what to do about it. This is a spec
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bump, but if you look at all the reasons people would not have bought the first one,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have solved literally zero of them with this update. It’s still the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco same design, it’s still big, heavy, it’s still massively expensive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco compared to any other VR headset on the market. It still has very little content, very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco few apps. It’s in a rough spot in terms of like, who’s buying this? I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think what they have found is they have a small market for it, probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with people who are making 3D content, or making immersive video, making immersive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco content. So you have the high-end content creators and editors and stuff like that who
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are using them. You probably have some specialized industrial kind of uses, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably not a huge market for that. This is a product that justifies almost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no investment from Apple, and so it has gotten almost no investment from Apple. This
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is literally keeping it alive until they figure out what to do next, which might be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not much in this area. But if, for all the reasons that this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco market is so small, this will address zero of those reasons. This will not expand the market
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all. All it does is keep this product from dying for another few years, and then we’ll see what happens.
⏹️ ▶️ John You have two zeros in there. It solves zeros of the problems, and does zero expansion of the market or something.
⏹️ ▶️ John I agree with you on the market expansion, but I feel like this strap with the top thing maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John solves one of the 10,000 problems in the first one. Wow.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey First of all,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey excuse me, sir, it’s 3,500 problems. No, but no, to be clear, we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talking about, we’re talking about the dual knit band, which basically imagine
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the like crank to expand or contract band that goes behind your head
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will stick another one of those on top of your head. And I think Federico originally found an Etsy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey person that 3D printed some sort of housing, for lack of a better word, or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey adapter mount thing, where you could get a second
⏹️ ▶️ Casey solo knit band, so the second thing that goes behind your head, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco plug it into this thing. For $100 more.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey For $100 more and plug it into this thing. And so you have this $200 plus 50 bucks for the trinket
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever to mount it on. You have this like $250 Rube Goldberg mount. but allegedly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was incredibly comfortable.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, I have that. And it is, it’s way, like, once I discovered
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that and put in, yes, another hundred, and the bracket was like 30 bucks, like another 130 bucks, 100 to Apple, 30 to the bracket.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It does dramatically improve the comfort. But again, like it fixes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco none of the other problems. So like, okay, that helps. But if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ask people, what are the top three reasons you’re not buying this? I don’t know that comfort would have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made the list for most people. I think it has larger challenges.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not why they’re not buying it. That’s the complaint of people who have bought it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. Yeah, that’s fair. But again, but it’s like, okay, well, suppose you fix the comfort. Now you have battery life,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco isolation, and the lack of content to deal with. So even if you ignore the price, which you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shouldn’t, but even if you do, again, this is, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keeping it alive. And I think what they’re, they’re obviously, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing the new live sports thing that they’re attempting to get off the ground. The Blackmagic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cameras are finally kind of getting out there in the world, you know, they’re trickling out. So I think what they’re doing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is they’re seeing that like the foundations for the content
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ecosystem are very slowly being laid, they’re very slowly growing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Over time, there might be a decent amount of immersive video content
⏹️ ▶️ Marco being produced and being available for it. That time has not yet come, but it is very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slowly. It’s like starting a car in fifth gear. You’re very slowly creeping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and getting a little bit faster, a little bit. But there is such a long way to go.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I think this is them buying time. This is them saying, look, half the company already,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the Vision Pro launched, half the company didn’t support it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s own apps are barely available for it. Most of them are still iPad apps. Apple has put
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in not that much work but they put in a little bit and they don’t want this whole segment
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the of their product line to die. They don’t want all this work to be for nothing. Tim Cook as we know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is obsessed with AR and sees this as a path to get there even though I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it is. I think those are separate things with separate needs. Anyway, we’ll another time. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, there are some people who believe heavily in this but also it It sells nothing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it is not worth a whole bunch of investment from the company in both, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware engineering or in software support, honestly. And so that’s what we’re seeing. We’re seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple is very slowly kind of trickling things out for it and waiting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that content ecosystem to eventually develop. They’re, I don’t think, doing a whole lot to help
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. They’re certainly not doing as much as they could to help it, but they’re waiting for that to develop and they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really believe it will. So in the meantime, we just have to keep this product going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because without this product it will not develop. So we’re going to keep this product existing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s mostly going to be bought by people who are in the business of making content for it,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not watching content on it and not using apps for it and everything else. And we’ll see over time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it ever becomes worth launching another one. Again, I wouldn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco consider that a guarantee. This could be the last Apple Vision product that’s ever made.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We don’t know yet. And I don’t know if they know yet, to be honest. But what they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did was keep this product the same and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just, you know, hit refresh and just update the year 2025.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we’ll see whatever happens. I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re going to hear any more about it after this hardware update than we have been hearing about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I think it’s going to continue to be this kind of baseline level product that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is occasionally the butt of jokes, but then most people just don’t think about it all most of the time. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will very, very slowly accumulate more content and maybe someday that will be enough.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I still don’t think they’re doing enough to help and support that. But hey, here it is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here’s another one that’s the same as the first one.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think the most important role this product has is to stop people from buying the m2 based one
⏹️ ▶️ John Because even if like if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco going to continue I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was really you know, they’re like holding the door back on that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John one I know but like
⏹️ ▶️ John every like over as the years progress Every one of those m2 one that gets out there just
⏹️ ▶️ John make like as you point I just kind of makes it harder for the ecosystem to ever take off because people are buying just ancient
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware and you’re like Oh, I fuck if only I could do this thing You have to start even though like the ecosystem
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t warrant it that really you do have to get some, you start to have to get some hardware turnover in there. Even if
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s only like people break their old one and when they go to buy a new one, like they shouldn’t buy an M2, like it
⏹️ ▶️ John shouldn’t be 2030 and they’re buying an M2 based product, right? For $3,500, right? So that’s what I feel like is important.
⏹️ ▶️ John Obviously they’ve continued, they’re deciding they’re gonna continue this product line. Right? That’s the decision they’ve made.
⏹️ ▶️ John You have to put out something that doesn’t have an M2 in it because, I mean, when this came out, the M2 was already
⏹️ ▶️ John not the latest shipper. It was on the verge of not being the latest ship, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think it had already been replaced in like the MacBook Air or something, but not everything else yet.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, anyway, it’s important to just keep that turnover. And it is nice to get a couple of little boosts. And to
⏹️ ▶️ John show, when you have an M5 in there, it’s like, oh, we can do some fairly minor tweaks to the software that actually,
⏹️ ▶️ John now that we have an M5, we can do 120 Hertz. Maybe the minimum frame rate will be higher. Maybe it takes
⏹️ ▶️ John less time to do those persona things. So stuff that was clunky before, oh, and we get a free half an hour battery
⏹️ ▶️ John life in a thing that has crappy battery life. So now it’s slightly less crappy, right? You know, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John fine. And as for the band thing, like I have never tried
⏹️ ▶️ John this band like this. Marco, you said the Etsy one that you got is comfortable. It’s great. Looking at this, I do wonder
⏹️ ▶️ John like how much of an improvement it’s going to be because the thing didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John get any lighter and it just has one dial. Like obviously when you have the two of them, you have two dials because you have two complete
⏹️ ▶️ John solo things. This, I think it just has one dial. Like I said, just one dial that tightens
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco both. Correct,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. So we don’t actually know like, you know, Does it does the top one is a top one fixed? Does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it tighten both at the same time? Does it tighten them at different ratios? You know, who
⏹️ ▶️ John knows? Maybe the right side does top and the left side does back. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did say though that you don’t have to actually buy the new vision pro to get this. This strap will be sold separately and it works
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the first one too.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and it’s 99 bucks. So it’s half the price of buying two solo knit bands and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but I mean the Etsy thing with the two knit bands as compared to the original
⏹️ ▶️ Marco solo band. it’s you know it’s totally different way of supporting it because it uses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the top of your head not just the back and as compared to like the apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco top and back velcro strap thing they made it’s way cushier
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and way more supportive and way easier to adjust quickly so it’s great like you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know before i had the dual solo knit thing for mine whenever i would be like showing it off to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people i would i would swap on the solo knit because it was easier to adjust quickly this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You don’t want to be doing the Velcro big strap on with somebody like, oh you pinched their hair, hold on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco undo it. It’s very inelegant when you’re trying to show the Vision Pro to somebody else, which was the main activity you did
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you first bought a Vision Pro. But then as soon as I got
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my hack to do the dual strap, I kept that on forever after that and never changed it out.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it was far better for both my own use and for showing it to other people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and passing it around to other people. So I think this band’s gonna be a big hit, but it’s a big hit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a very, very small market. So great, look, it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac Pro getting new wheels. Someone’s gonna use this. Not a ton
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of people, but for the people who do use it, it helps, and that’s this band.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you are a regular Vision Pro user and you are not yet using one of the Etsy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dual solo band hacks, I would strongly recommend checking out this band.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean, I’m excited to, at some point, give it a shot some way, somehow. Um, I am using
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Belkin strap that, that you, it’s, you use the, the fancy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple one in the back, and then there’s like this Velcro thing in the top. And that’s pretty good. But the problem with that is, is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you can’t use the developer strap with it for complicated reasons or verbally complicated reasons to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey describe. And although I don’t use the developer strap that often, there have been occasions where I’ve wanted to use it because I’m doing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Vision Pro development or because I’m doing the Mac virtual display in a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey environment that does not have stellar Wi-Fi. And this, from what I can tell, should work
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the developer strap, which is also a big improvement. Additionally, one last, or a couple of more accessories.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple will start selling the PlayStation VR 2 Sense controller on November 11th for 250 bucks.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And additionally, the Logitech Muse Spatial Stylus, which is basically you can draw in thin air,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so to speak, That’s $130 and I believe that’s available now. Yes, it looks like it is.
Apple TV–
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we do have additional bit of somewhat breaking news from a couple of days ago
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple announced that f1 the movie is making its streaming debut on December 12th
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And let me do a quick aside and we already talked about the f1 movie I watched it again recently
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I got to tell you it is a deeply Unserious movie from the perspective of an f1
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fan, but it’s also super fun So I definitely recommend once it lands in Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Plus which we’re about to talk about. Once it lands on Apple TV+, then you should give it a shot. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there are much worse ways to spend a couple hours of your time. Anyways, reading from Mac Rumors, buried in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey its announcement about F1 the movie making its streaming debut on December 12th, Apple has also announced that Apple TV+, is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey now being rebranded as simply Apple TV. A single line near the end of the press release states, quote,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple TV+, is now simply Apple TV, with a vibrant new identity.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple’s blurb about the streaming service at the bottom of the press release also reflects the updated naming. Quote, Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is available on the Apple TV app in over 100 countries and regions on over 1 billion screens,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey including iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Vision Pro, Mac, and popular smart TVs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This, of course, everyone made the same joke concurrently. You can watch Apple TV on your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple TV using the Apple TV app. So you can do Apple TV on Apple TV on Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV, which is hilarious, but the more I thought about it, my first reaction was,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are you kidding me? But the more I thought about it, the more I think, honestly, this is probably for the best.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It makes sense that the TV service named Apple TV would be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in an app named Apple TV. That’s how streaming services work. HBO is available in an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app called HBO. Netflix is available in an app called Netflix. So that part makes sense.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it is only the long-time existence of the Apple TV box
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that makes it especially weird.
⏹️ ▶️ John But no, what about the TV app? The Netflix app just shows you Netflix. But the
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV app doesn’t just show you Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen. That’s true, yeah, I guess that
⏹️ ▶️ John It is like the button on the remote by default takes you there. It is like the hub
⏹️ ▶️ John of their TV watching experience that other things plug into. So already, even before you consider the
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware box, there’s still some confusion. Also, by the way, that Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ John app is just called TV, Like, and the icon, like it doesn’t, it has the Apple logo,
⏹️ ▶️ John so it’s an Apple logo TV, but like, we refer to it as the Apple TV app, but we also
⏹️ ▶️ John say the TV app a lot of the time, right? And anyway, before we get to the hardware, just
⏹️ ▶️ John talking about the Apple TV Plus name, as we’ll see, Eddie Q is gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John read some quotes from him from a podcast pretty soon, talking about the renaming and people saying, well, it makes sense, blah, blah, blah, that’s what people
⏹️ ▶️ John called it anyway. Here’s the problem. I think at least half the people that I know that regularly
⏹️ ▶️ John misnamed the Apple TV Plus service, call it, drum roll please, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV. Oh yeah, okay, fair. No, that’s fair, you’re right.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t blame them, I don’t blame people for getting it wrong. It’s confusing, some people call it Apple TV, some people call it
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Plus. As of yesterday or whenever, neither of those was right. They’ve only
⏹️ ▶️ John helped half of those people.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I have never heard a non-Apple nerd correctly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco name the Apple TV Plus service, ever. They’ve said everything, like you said. And I mean, granted,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of times this doesn’t matter. Like, you know, I’ve also very rarely heard anybody say
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Watch. Everyone says iWatch still.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Really? I don’t hear that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much. Oh my God, I hear iWatch so much from regular people. I do think it makes sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco overall to call it Apple TV. However, I do have a terrible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea. This is what I was teasing earlier. It’s not a very good idea, it’s a terrible idea.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve heard a terrible idea on the internet. Can I, should I say my terrible idea of hurting the internet first or do
⏹️ ▶️ John want me to wait until after?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In case it’s the same, I wanna still think I came up with this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Okay, go ahead.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, Apple TV is the service. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app also makes sense because it’s Apple TV for the most part.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But what has more things than the Apple TV and Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app? The box. So I think they should rename the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco box Apple TV Plus.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey idea. That is
⏹️ ▶️ John worse than the idea that I was thinking of.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Congratulations. That is a truly terrible idea.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco It truly is. Because that makes sense. The box
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the Apple TV app plus a bunch of other stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so is the app though, unfortunately, as previously noted. The Apple TV app is also Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff. Not an amazing concept. So the app should be, everything should be called plus except for the service.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because, okay, look, and the app, right now, the box, you know, they had like Apple TV HD and 4K,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but, you know, it’s 2025. Next time they update the box, just calling it Apple TV 4K
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a little bit, you know, that’s like Gateway 2000 still being called Gateway 2000 in 2005, which it wasn’t for that reason. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, they should rename the box
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from Apple TV 4K to something else. Apple TV Plus, there it is, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sitting, now it’s unused. Do
⏹️ ▶️ John you want to hear the idea that I was thinking of that is not as bad as yours, but is still terrible?
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure you both already have. People saying that it should be named HomePod something. Oh, yeah, yeah. The hardware box
⏹️ ▶️ John should be called HomePod TV, or like they
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco basically have to latch onto the HomePod brand for the hardware.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, because like, whatever, because the hardware things they put in your house that don’t have screens and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John are HomePods, and why is this one not called the HomePod? And I think it’s a terrible idea because A, HomePods have a bad reputation,
⏹️ ▶️ John and B, it’s not a HomePod, I
⏹️ ▶️ John They can do whatever they want with the names of their product, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. But no, Apple TV Plus is worse. Congratulations.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was thinking, I mean, another name they might give it is Apple Home, maybe, like the next box.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, they don’t wanna give up all that brand equity of the HomePod, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Which everyone knows and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple TV Max. Oh no, I think HBO might have a problem
⏹️ ▶️ John that. Yeah, that was the jokes about the device being renamed with Max, or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pro. So far, Apple TV Plus is not as bad as these other ideas that I’m hearing.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, Apple TV Plus is worse. So read from Eddie’s interview. I think he explains why.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So Eddie Cue is on the Town podcast. And at around five and a half minutes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or thereabouts, Matt Bologna, who’s the host, says, how many management consultants did it take to tell you to drop the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Plus from Apple TV Plus? Which credit to Matt Bologna, because that’s a very good assumption.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey However, Eddie said zero. Matt said, you just decided? And he said, I just decided. We just decided.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Look, we put the plus in there because we’ve used it in our other services like iCloud Plus, News Plus, but we do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that when we have a free service and then there’s a paid version. We stayed consistent because of it, but we all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey called it Apple TV and we said, given where we are today, it’s a great time to do it, so let’s just do it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Matt then replies, I remember when you announced it, Disney was annoyed, remember, because they had Disney Plus coming.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And he says, I do. Matt says, now I guess maybe they’ll be happier. when you own them someday, you can bring
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it back. Oh, wow. You now have this potential confusion, though, with other hardware. Twitch Eddie replies,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey our hardware is called Apple TV 4K for your TV. I think that’s fine, and the app
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is called Apple TV. It’s been called Apple TV on our third-party products as well. So I don’t think that’ll be a problem at all.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so this is the pitch for the Plus. I don’t remember the history of Plus, like who did it first or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John At least the timeline in this interview is explaining that Disney Plus was coming. But there was a trend
⏹️ ▶️ John of putting a Plus symbol at the end of some brand name to say,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is a streaming service that you pay for or whatever. And you have things like Peacock that didn’t do that, but the plus
⏹️ ▶️ John stuck on the end was common. Apple had its own iCloud Plus, News Plus. Again, I don’t remember who was first,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I think Apple was pretty early in the sticking plus on the end of things to say it’s a thing that you pay for. Apple TV Math.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so with the plus symbol on things that you pay for, Eddie’s logic
⏹️ ▶️ John is say, well, we have this consistency, but it wasn’t actually that consistent because like
⏹️ ▶️ John we only put plus in things that you used to get for free. Now I know iCloud, there was a free version and then iCloud plus
⏹️ ▶️ John was a pay cause you get some measly amount of storage for free, blah, blah, blah, and you get a plus and you pay. That’s true.
⏹️ ▶️ John Was there a free version of news? Is there a free version of news?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think so. No, I think there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you just, you don’t have access to as much stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, maybe. But anyway, with the Apple TV plus is like, well, there was never a free version of that.
⏹️ ▶️ John So when Apple comes out with the not inevitable, but many people think is inevitable ad supported
⏹️ ▶️ John free version of Apple TV. Do they put the plus back on then?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a, I did see that that theory floated that this is just like preparing for a future day
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where there’s a paid version that they call Apple TV plus again and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s supposed
⏹️ ▶️ John to be a nightmare for them to put the plus back on.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I don’t necessarily, I mean, so on one hand, if you look around the streaming service business,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every other streaming service has realized that you can make more total money having a free tier
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with ads than only having a paid service. But I don’t necessarily think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a given that Apple will go that way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Number one. If anyone’s gonna hold off from it, it would be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple. Yeah, number one, like Apple is really good at making people pay for stuff. And they have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hiring customers who are more willing to pay for
⏹️ ▶️ John And they’re really bad at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco selling ads. Yeah, number two, they suck at selling ads. Like anything Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does that is ad supported, including News Plus, too, some of you like it’s it’s really half
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John and yeah the news plus are grim.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah and and to to actually sell the inventory of a popular
⏹️ ▶️ Marco free streaming service you need a pretty good ad sales business that’s not something that you can just like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know quickly outsource or quickly whip something together like that’s a lot of inventory of reasonably well-paying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ads to sell that they would need a substantial sales arm like if you look look at like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know what the business people all said, like when Netflix was investing in their ad tier,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was a big operation to get that going. It takes a lot of hiring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and build out and talent and relationship building to be able to sell that many ads. I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has it in them, to be honest. That’s so outside of their usual comfort zone and abilities.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t necessarily think they’re going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John go that way.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s outside their technology in that they don’t collect all the data that advertisers would want
⏹️ ▶️ John to precisely target ads because Apple literally doesn’t collect that stuff or collects it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when it comes to Apple selling their own ads, they’re happy to do that. They throw all that out the window.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but like, but selling it out
⏹️ ▶️ John to third parties. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no, I mean, look, Apple will Apple would not shy away from using all of your personal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco information to target ads to you. They would absolutely do that if they if they were going all in.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I think I think they would shy away from that, like in terms of like what the other other companies do, which is like
⏹️ ▶️ John detecting what you’re viewing by reading the screen, like the Vizio TVs or whatever that company was doing. It’s so commonplace
⏹️ ▶️ John now that not only through every app and every thing that goes through Apple software, but also even when you’re not going through Apple software,
⏹️ ▶️ John because you’re using the Apple TV streaming app or whatever, we can detect what’s on your screen and figure
⏹️ ▶️ John out what it is and do all this super creepy stuff that Apple just doesn’t do and I don’t think would do.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it makes them less able to sell ads because they don’t have as granular and invasive data to sell against.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, they have good data. I mean, look at App Store ads. App Store search ads, it’s probably,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I had to guess, that might be Apple’s largest ad platform. And it’s, you know, they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do a lot of volume, because you have to.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not a very good system. It’s not very advanced. They have not put a ton of effort into it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it is not nearly as targeted as, you know, something like buying Facebook ads, but it- There’s no prescription drug
⏹️ ▶️ John in the App Store search ads.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, well. There’s a lot of crap in there, though.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know. It’s not like News Plus with boner pills or whatever. It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, but you know, but I do think like when Apple, if you look at search ads, like they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do use your data to to try to influence those to try to rank them like they and you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they ask you sometimes occasionally in a weird way, but they do use it like they are happy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use first-party data about what apps you search for what apps you use, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if it came to it if they actually decided to do a large ad play in TV,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they would be happy to do the same thing. They don’t need to read your screen to know what you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco watching. They know what you’re watching already because it’s their apps playing it. To
⏹️ ▶️ John give another example, would they go through everything, every purchase you made with your Apple card?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think so, only because I don’t think they would be able to get their technical act together to actually do that.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a question of whether it’s technical competence or refusal to gather data, but the granularity of data that other companies
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re willing to gather from all sources they can possibly get to target ads precisely. Like someone who
⏹️ ▶️ John just looked at a webpage that had this thing on it and has this history of buying things at Amazon and has this
⏹️ ▶️ John credit score and just like, they’ll go much farther than Apple can, to your point with technical
⏹️ ▶️ John capability, but I think they’ll also go farther than Apple will. But anyway, we’ll see if they ever make an ad-free version of this. But
⏹️ ▶️ John if I had to make a pitch for why, if I was at EQ in this interview and said,
⏹️ ▶️ John explain to me why the heck you did this renaming thing, here’s what would have been my pitch. Apple TV,
⏹️ ▶️ John the streaming service, is the thing with the
⏹️ ▶️ John most sort of brand value in this stew of stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV shows and movies, like movies win Oscars, the shows win Emmys.
⏹️ ▶️ John If there’s anything that the public has any consciousness of any of Apple’s TV crap, it’s because of like Ted
⏹️ ▶️ John Lasso or, you know, it’s the streaming service and the content made
⏹️ ▶️ John for it has the widest awareness in the people in the world.
⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t have to be Apple fans, they don’t have to have any Apple hardware or any Apple software, it’s just they bought a TV,
⏹️ ▶️ John it came with an app and had an Apple logo on it, someone said, watch Ted Lasso, you said, what’s that? It’s like go to the Apple thing, they went to the
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple thing, they watched Ted Lasso, right? That is your sort of brand crown jewel.
⏹️ ▶️ John So give that one the name that is closest to what people are saying. Some
⏹️ ▶️ John people are saying, we used to say Apple Plus because you’re stupid past naming bad decisions, but other people said Apple TV,
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it’s the majority of the people, so we’re gonna call it Apple TV. The hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ John effectively nobody buys that. Like compared to the number of people who watch Ted Lasso versus the number of people who buy
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV Pucks, so few people buy it, it doesn’t matter what it’s called, but calling
⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware essentially the same as your streaming service, it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because it’s like, oh, if you’re buying this, you probably know what Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ John is. like the streaming service. And this is the hardware thing. There’s a streaming service called
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV. And this is like, it’s like a Netflix box. You know, you could buy a Netflix box and watch Netflix on it. Why would you
⏹️ ▶️ John do that? It comes with my TV. Exactly, that’s why nobody buys these things. But calling the hardware Apple TV, I think also makes
⏹️ ▶️ John sense, especially where Apple does not actually make a television set, which would confuse things further.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I know there’s rumors all these years ago and that’s what the HomePod project came out of, but right now they don’t make one.
⏹️ ▶️ John So calling the hardware thing, Apple TV is also fine. Then you have the app. And honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how many people outside tech circles who would ever call that app,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV. They may call it the Apple TV app, or they may say just go
⏹️ ▶️ John to TV, or they may say go to Apple TV, but no one knows or cares what the names of those apps are because they’re just icons on your
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco so who cares
⏹️ ▶️ John called? Honestly, I don’t know if it actually is called Apple TV. I know the icon is an Apple logo
⏹️ ▶️ John and the lowercase letter is TV. Under the covers, what is that app called? Who the hell knows? It’s like, it’s nothing that comes
⏹️ ▶️ John up in the interface. Right? And so I think actually that’s why this renaming is fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John We gave the simple name to the thing that everybody knows. The hardware doesn’t matter, but it makes sense for it to match
⏹️ ▶️ John the simple name that everybody knows and nobody cares, knows or cares what the app is called. So done and done. And it’s mostly just a curiosity
⏹️ ▶️ John to tech nerds. And hopefully they’ll never need to do this again. Don’t bring back
⏹️ ▶️ John the plus. Don’t go HBO Max, Max, like just,
⏹️ ▶️ John just let it fly. Apple TV and you know, I’m not saying they should get rid of the TV box. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John I, I like it. I’m hoping they never stopped making it cause the other boxes out there are worse, but
⏹️ ▶️ John just keep making it for the few people who like it. And everyone else will just buy a TV and find the icon that looks
⏹️ ▶️ John like this picture here and click on it and watch Apple TV, which is the only thing they know about.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sorted. Uh, and then with regard to the vibrant new identity, apparently
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s, what did they say? And I think it was upgrade. There’s some smeared, uh, gradients on there and we’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Casey put a link to six colors, where there’s a photo of the new icon. That’s all we’ve seen as we record this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Presumably there’ll be more in the future.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like it’s still a black rectangle with a white Apple logo and the white letter,
⏹️ ▶️ John lowercase letters TV, but now the white Apple logo and the white lowercase letters TV have some Siri
⏹️ ▶️ John looking kind of rainbowy tinge to them. Which
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey fine. It looks nice. I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know what it says representing, was the previous one only black and white? And now that they have color video, like.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco All right, fine. Now in Technicolor.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Yeah. Maybe someday Apple’s political activities will line up with their rainbow branding.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thanks to our sponsors this week, Sentry and Grammarly, and thanks to our members who support
⏹️ ▶️ Marco us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the many perks of membership
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week on Overtime, we’re going to be talking about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alexa Plus and how it is finally hitting the real world and what people think about it and how it works.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you can join to listen atp.fm. Thank you so much to everybody,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we’ll talk to you next week.
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was accidental,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental John didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause it was accidental,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental And you can find the
⏹️ ▶️ John show notes at atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you’re into mastodon, you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean to Accidental Check podcasts so long
John’s phone-setup quest
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So John, you apparently have been on a quest. Tell
⏹️ ▶️ John I have, well, it’s not much of a quest. It’s just, we thought we were all done with phone setup. And we said that we got all
⏹️ ▶️ John got our new phones. We talked about them, all that stuff. And I noted that I was getting new phones for my children, but they’re away
⏹️ ▶️ John at college, so the new phones were just sitting on the desk and so they, I hadn’t set up their phones and
⏹️ ▶️ John so. I had a phone, I had a phone set up process waiting for me. You figure, haven’t we already
⏹️ ▶️ John talked everything there? Haven’t we said everything there is to say about the setup process? last time we talked about it. Apparently not, because I
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, or it’s maybe it’s just amnesia. Cause I know, as I noted, every time I have to set up a phone, which is, I have
⏹️ ▶️ John to set up a phone every year. I only buy new phones for myself once every other year, but every year someone’s getting a new phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John Cause I, my wife and I alternate years and the kids get phones occasionally or whatever. And I always just forget all of
⏹️ ▶️ John the, you know, the things that I should remember and the things that I should avoid or whatever. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John it just doesn’t happen enough to stick in my mind. And usually cause I’m so angry about it. Cause I have to end up getting on an iPhone day and I end up calling Verizon
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s just blah, blah, blah. Anyway, here’s to remind myself maybe next year
⏹️ ▶️ John to not make these same mistakes. So first, when I’m setting up a
⏹️ ▶️ John phone for my kid, like first kid came home from school and setting up their phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I tell them, you’ll be without your phone for about four hours,
⏹️ ▶️ John but you’ll get it back. And it’s not really gonna be four hours, but you wanna set expectations so they’re not
⏹️ ▶️ John annoyed about it. And they say, no, I don’t have four hours. Now, fine, just tell me when you can be without your phone for four hours, give me your phone
⏹️ ▶️ John and I’ll do the setup because never the other phone there because I’m doing like device to device transfer.
⏹️ ▶️ John See previous episodes about the different techniques. When I’m doing this, there’s usually a step where it’s like, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John do face ID set up. And I believe you can skip it. You can say, oh, I don’t wanna
⏹️ ▶️ John it later. But I don’t wanna skip it because I just wanna get it over with and get it done and be able
⏹️ ▶️ John to hand off the phone to them. And especially if I know where the kid is now, I can say, oh, here, just do the face ID thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John and my kids know how to do the Face ID thing. Apple kids, they’ve had Apple hardware before. So I
⏹️ ▶️ John have to give the phone to them for them to do Face ID. And this year, I’m sure I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John done this before and I did it again. It’s like going through the setup, ba ba ba ba ba, oh Face ID. Oh, I walk into the other room,
⏹️ ▶️ John give it to my daughter. I say, hey, do the Face ID thing. Guess what? Now I walk too far away from the other phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Cause I left the other phone on the table. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now I’ve gone too far away and the setup process aborts. Cause it’s like, nope, lost connection
⏹️ ▶️ John to the other phone, which can never be regained because we don’t have that technology because you’ve walked two feet too far away
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco from the other
⏹️ ▶️ John phone. I’m like, okay, well, that sucks. I should have remembered that. I know that happens.
⏹️ ▶️ John Just, all right, start the setup over. Now I’m going through the setup. This time
⏹️ ▶️ John on the Face ID setup, I go over there with both phones, do the Face ID, you know, making sure they’re staying near each other. I come
⏹️ ▶️ John back. Eventually I get to the point where it’s like, time to set up Siri. And I’m like, aha, I’m not gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John make the mistake again. I’m gonna get up and you know, cause it’s like, I think it wants you to say stuff like, hey, dingus, what’s the
⏹️ ▶️ John weather or whatever? And again, I think there’s a skip, but I’m always like, is this trying to remember my voice?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t wanna do it, because I don’t want to remember my voice from my daughter’s phone, because our voices don’t sound the same, right? So I bring
⏹️ ▶️ John the two phones over to my daughter and say, here, just do what it says on the screen, say, what’s the weather, blah, blah, blah,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? And I bring the other phone, because I don’t want the process to abort.
⏹️ ▶️ John But when she’s doing it, she says, hey, dingus, what’s the weather? The other phone is nearby, and it answers
⏹️ ▶️ John she’s going through the tutorial, but her other phone, her old phone is answering it.
⏹️ ▶️ John And by answering it and going through that process, it aborts the setup because now it’s too far into the Siri
⏹️ ▶️ John like thing or whatever. And not only does it abort the setup process, now it requires
⏹️ ▶️ John erasing the new phone and starting completely over, no choice. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, sorry, setup has been aborted because essentially the old phone got out of that little screen where it shows that white card
⏹️ ▶️ John at the bottom and it says, you know, finish on other phone or whatever. You’re like, God, don’t touch it. Don’t touch anything on the old phone. Siri
⏹️ ▶️ John came and was answering those queries and aborted the whole setup process. And the only way forward
⏹️ ▶️ John was erase the new phone, start completely over again. Erasing a phone takes a while, even
⏹️ ▶️ John though we hadn’t done everything yet. So that’s two
⏹️ ▶️ John strikes. And the third strike, third time, and now I know I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna have to muffle the other phone, but keep it nearby. I think I skipped the Siri setup process,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is the smarter thing to do. Anytime you can skip those, that’s what I’m learning, I wanna remind myself. During the setup,
⏹️ ▶️ John when you’re doing a thing, skip everything until you get through all the hurdles and then do them,
⏹️ ▶️ John because if anything perturbs this process, you have to start over. And then finally, during some later part of
⏹️ ▶️ John this other process, since my kids have stuff on their phones
⏹️ ▶️ John from the days before they had Apple IDs, the days before there was an Apple family,
⏹️ ▶️ John they have purchases made under my Apple ID, because we used to have all the
⏹️ ▶️ John quote unquote family purchases were made under my Apple ID in the days before there was the concept of an Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John family. So during the setup, it will ask you, please sign in with this Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John ID to unlock the applications. It knows that there are apps on there that were purchased
⏹️ ▶️ John through my Apple ID. And so I have to log into my Apple ID on her phone. And I
⏹️ ▶️ John enter in my information. And it says, we sent a code to your trusted device. And the thing that comes
⏹️ ▶️ John up that shows a little map that It says like, there’s a login from this place on the map, but do you want to allow it or whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ John And I say, this is showing up on my phone right now, or that’s my trusted device, is my actual phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m logging in my daughter’s phone, it sent the code to my phone, I hit allow
⏹️ ▶️ John on the little map thing, and then it pops up the thing with the six digits that it wants you to type in on my daughter’s phone,
⏹️ ▶️ John and that six digit thing disappears instantly. Oh, cool. And it stays on screen long
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it stays on screen long enough that you’re like, I did see the six numbers. I can probably
⏹️ ▶️ John memorize them in the time they come up. And so you do send code again. All right, ready?
⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s the map. I’m gonna hit the allow button. Allow, memorize, memorize. Oh no, I got five of them.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like this bug has been in Apple’s platforms for, I don’t know, five years, six years.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s so maddening because if it didn’t work at all, you’d be like, oh, I’ll find
⏹️ ▶️ John some other things. There’s other things like, try another way. send me an SMS, blah, blah, blah. Like you can eventually get through
⏹️ ▶️ John it, but it almost works and it stays on screen just long enough to make you think you can
⏹️ ▶️ John do it. And this is my message to me for next year. Don’t try to memorize the six numbers.
⏹️ ▶️ John Just immediately do, choose another way, send an SMS, type in a phone
⏹️ ▶️ John number, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I’m not inexperienced
⏹️ ▶️ John at setting up iPhones. I’ve set up a lot of iPhones and still, still this is my experience. and
⏹️ ▶️ John I had just set up my wife’s phone like two weeks ago. I’m still, I can’t get through. The good thing
⏹️ ▶️ John is I will say, both of their phone numbers transferred successfully cause it was an iPhone day,
⏹️ ▶️ John also I deleted their like one global eSIM. You know, I knew
⏹️ ▶️ John that those were gonna screw it up. So I remembered that part, I deleted off any weird, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John foreign country eSIMs. And then because it was an iPhone day, I was like, it’s gonna happen. It’s literally
⏹️ ▶️ John the first time I’ve ever seen this happen
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey an iPhone number transferred
⏹️ ▶️ John correctly on two phones. So victory for me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve never, or I’m sure I’ve had an issue in the past, I’m sure, but it’s been years since I’ve had an
⏹️ ▶️ Casey issue doing the phone number transfers. So I don’t know what makes your account so special that you get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John lucky one. It’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John the account. I think Verizon servers just suck. Like, cause AT&T
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey has iPhone day as well. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ John But whatever their servers are in this area that answered these API calls for like whatever, you know, transfer
⏹️ ▶️ John the number from here to there, they just give up the ghost. And I was already, because I remembered from
⏹️ ▶️ John our last episode, I was very like, if this transfer fails, I remember, supposedly I can go to the website and
⏹️ ▶️ John do this myself without calling them. So I’m going to try that next. But I didn’t have to, because they just, it actually worked the way it’s supposed to. The number
⏹️ ▶️ John is just transferred.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey One of these days, one of us, and maybe it’ll be me, we should just try an
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iCloud restore. And I know it used to be,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco this is why I don’t do it. I do it every time. Okay, there you go.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, and you, and it remembers like Wi-Fi passwords and stuff?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, anything in iCloud keychain. Anything except your Slack login, basically.
⏹️ ▶️ John From that follow-up we had from the Apple care person, I think he
⏹️ ▶️ John the device-to-device and finder backup are still higher fidelity than iCloud, but he didn’t specify about
⏹️ ▶️ John what. But most of the stuff is in iCloud backup at this point.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean, maybe we should just do that, and maybe it’d be easier. I don’t know. I should try it at some point,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I’ll forget this by the time next year rolls
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John around. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John just don’t do it when you’re away from home on a trip in a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey car. You have a long
⏹️ ▶️ John way to go before you’re optimizing at that level.