642: A Rebuilding Year
05 Jun 2025Hopes, dreams, and predictions for WWDC 2025… after an hour of U2.
Episode Description:
- Follow-up:
- Vision Pro & John Siracusa Corner
- Bono: Stories of Surrender
- Open: An Autobiography
- Rattle and Hum
- AI Screenshots:
- PSA: Plex privacy opt-out
- Apple/SwiftUI folks: a quick appeal, if you please
- Casey’s toot
- FB17661404
- WWDC hopes & predictions
- Post-show: Apple declines invitation to The Talk Show Live
- Members-only ATP Overtime: Sky: a new AI app for macOS
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Chapters
- Holy fartnuggets
- Apple emergency request denied
- LED work gloves
- Sponsor: MasterClass
- macOS 26 rumors
- Jony + Laurene Jobs interview
- Sponsor: Squarespace
- Stories of Surrender 🖼️
- Plex PSA
- Casey’s SwiftUI bug
- Sponsor: Factor (code atp50off)
- WWDC hopes 🖼️
- Ending theme
- Apple pulls out of The Talk Show
Holy fartnuggets
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are you telling me I watched 10 minutes of YouTube videos for nothing?
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s good to learn about that stuff anyway, but you know, was it full of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John got to get, shouldn’t be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to start paying for YouTube. It’s gotten so bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I know. I just haven’t gotten around to it.
⏹️ ▶️ John You haven’t gotten around to it for like seven years or however old
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey your kids are.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t want to pay for it until they had the slightly cheaper plan.
⏹️ ▶️ John find out how many ads your kids know from YouTube. I think we talked
⏹️ ▶️ John I got the family one that I had to use an emulator to run Android to get
⏹️ ▶️ John because they didn’t offer it on the web or to Mac or iOS users. So literally only available to people through
⏹️ ▶️ John Android phone. So I read that that blue tax or whatever emulator where I ran Android to sign up for
⏹️ ▶️ John the family thing. Gracious.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s bad. Uh, anyways, I, I need to do it because all I’m trying to say is it is so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad out there. I feel like I, and I obviously I was a YouTuber for like 10 minutes at several years
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ago and I don’t recall one way or the other what, what amount of control, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the people who make the video have or don’t have about, you know, how many ads there are when they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey placed, et cetera. I thought there was at least a modicum of control, but holy fart nuggets,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there are There are so many ads on YouTube right now. It is unbelievable. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey well since Cross the Rubicon from, okay, you know, I’m going to watch an ad or two because I’m getting something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for free, not unlike this very program, to, oh my gosh, can I go 15 seconds without
⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting interrupted by an ad? And obviously I’m being a bit hyperbolic, but it’s bad. It’s real
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s the nature of things, of ads. Like ads beget more ads. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco once you have, it’s like mice, once you have two ads, there will become an infinite number
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of ads over time. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not sure that’s how ads reproduce, but I get the analogy.
Apple emergency request denied
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So let’s do some follow-up Apple was told earlier today
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just moments before we started recording to go outside and play hide-and-go-screw themselves because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Reading from the verge an appeals court has now denied Apple’s emergency request emergency request
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to block the order. This is the order that says that they Should there they have to allow link
⏹️ ▶️ Casey outs and you know get rid of the anti-steering stuff Coming back to the verge, the court has said it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not persuaded that blocking the order was appropriate after weighing Apple’s chances to succeed on appeal,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whether Apple would irreparably be harmed, and whether other parties would be hurt if the order
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is halted, and what supports the public interest. You just love to see it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco To nobody’s surprise, Apple was not able to prove that allowing people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to link to a website was causing irreparable immediate emergency damage
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to their entire company. But, you know, they’re still going to go through the rest of the appeal process.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, you know, the story is not over and it won’t be over for probably another few years, I would have to guess. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s looking like for the time being, probably, because, you know, with just a system,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s always, you know, a lot of like asterisks and probablys and maybes and for nows. But for now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the time being, it probably looks like Apple will be forced to allow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people to link out to the websites to make payments in the US app store, at least
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while. Again, we’ll see where it goes. I stand by what I said before, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, don’t build a business that relies on this. If you want to temporarily
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do this and view it as a temporary thing for now that you might be able to maybe continue doing in the future,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go for it. this is something that can be changed or taken away abruptly in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco future as soon as Apple gets the ability to do so. They’re not allowing this willingly. This
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not a policy change with Apple saying, we’ve decided to allow this. No, this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple being forced. And as soon as they can find any way to stop it, they will stop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. So treat it as a temporary situation that you might
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be able to use and that might bear other downsides. Like, for instance, like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I’m going to be doing anything with this because, first of all, I don’t want to deal with it. But second of all, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you have this in your app, Apple might make your app reviews take longer. You might
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get held up all the time. Every time you try to submit an update, you might get held up in app review for a long time. Like, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple introduces a new API, and they say, you aren’t allowed to use this API if you have this. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s all sorts of ways that they can and probably will retaliate against apps that do this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if you are choosing to use this, you have to bear in mind that kind of risk is also part of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the choice. So I personally don’t think it’s worth it for my app. But the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco advantage of being able to link out to the web for payments is that a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of types of businesses just become possible that weren’t really possible before. It isn’t just that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers want to pay less. We do, of course. But also entire business models
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or payment structures or types of products and services offered,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire things that weren’t possible under Apple’s system can now be possible. But again,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wouldn’t build a business depending on this. So everyone out there, enjoy the party while it lasts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But keep in mind, if you go in, And there are potential risks and downsides.
LED work gloves
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have important follow-up from Nathaniel. Nathaniel writes, In the after show
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of episode 641, Marco was recommending a DeWalt LED work light, and John was recommending headlamps as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a concept. I would like to add to this list LED flashlight gloves. They’re cheap as anything, look
⏹️ ▶️ Casey dumb, and would probably die or break with any level of frequent use. But they are a game changer when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey working in weird spaces where your arms or hands are going to cast shadows from any headlamp or stationary light. I’ve used
⏹️ ▶️ Casey them while working in awkward parts of my car, messing with cables behind TVs, and various other places where other lights just haven’t done
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it for me. Nathaniel has provided a representative example. I don’t think that Nathaniel
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is claiming that the particular example that he cited, which will be in the show notes, is the Be All End All. It is simply
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an illustrative or illustrative whatever example for you to check out. And we will put it in the show
⏹️ ▶️ John I gotta admit, I’m tempted by these things.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They do look absolutely dumb and ridiculous, but I get it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I definitely took a look and I’m like I I would only wear these in jobs where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nobody would ever see me but also like I part of the reason why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Headlamps are amazing and part of the reason headlamps are terrible is that headlamps track your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco head no matter what you know Wherever you’re aiming your head the headlamp points. That’s great in a lot of cases
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But a lot of times it’s not what you want Like if you turn your head for a second, maybe you don’t want the light source to change
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I would have a similar minor paper cut annoyance with these but maybe even a more major
⏹️ ▶️ Marco version of it of like Every if I move my hands at all the angle of the light will change That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not necessarily what I always want, but I don’t I never use them So maybe I’ll give them a try
⏹️ ▶️ John gotta have the headlamp and these on at the same time and your work light you see How it’s working here. Just
⏹️ ▶️ John part every orifice of your body should emit light The use case that got me here was like the
⏹️ ▶️ John messing around with stuff behind TVs because it’s very often in my particular situation hard to get my head even
⏹️ ▶️ John back around there. Or like, it’s like the AV receiver, it’s on the bottom shelf. You know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t get my head down to being two inches off the ground to shine my headlamp directly on it. So it’s always coming down at an angle
⏹️ ▶️ John and then it’s hitting the other shelves, but my hands are down there, you know, messing around with the cables. Or even if you’re just trying to look
⏹️ ▶️ John down there, sometimes, yeah, shadows, shadows are the problem. So I would love to
⏹️ ▶️ John have these lights. You put a work light on the floor, you got your headlamp on your head and you got these things on your gloves. And the ones in the picture
⏹️ ▶️ John are, it’s like one light on your thumb, one light on your pointer finger in each hand and that would probably do it. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I am actually interested in these things.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, again, they look ridiculous, but I get it. These are not one device. These are three devices,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey gloves and headlamp.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Might as well just
⏹️ ▶️ John put on a Tron suit at that point.
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macOS 26 rumors
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac OS 26 has a name, Mark Gurman writes. I’m told that the company is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey homed in, is it home, H-O-M-E or H-O-N-E?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s H-O-M-E-D. Thank you. The other one is in common usage because it sounds similar, but it is not the original
⏹️ ▶️ John and it is less correct.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, is the idea that like, is homing like a missile and honing is like sharpening something?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, you got it. Homing pigeon, honing is sharpening. And you can see how sharpening can also, like it kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of works, which is why it’s come into to fashion, but homed is the earlier one. And the other one is
⏹️ ▶️ John derived from it because it sounds similar and people mix it up. So there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have it. Well, like I said, today I learned. Let me try this all over again though. Mark Gurman writes, I’m told that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the company is homed with an M in on Lake Tahoe as its next moniker, making it Mac
⏹️ ▶️ Casey OS Tahoe. It’s a famous resort area and a vacation destination and second home site for many
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple employees. So let me read that last part one more time. And second home site for many Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey employees. The most West Coast thing I think I’ve heard That’s a really Silicon Valley thing I’ve heard in a while.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, as we know, homes in California are very affordable. Right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, to have their problems, am I right? Anyways, Mac OS 26 Tahoe. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with that. Yeah, that was my kind of random guess looking at the map last week during overtime.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I will take full credit, despite it being pure luck. It just
⏹️ ▶️ John so happens. You had the right logic, too, which I think I agreed with. It was just like, oh, well, rich people like this place.
⏹️ ▶️ John Who’s picking the name? Yeah. The logic was sound and here you have it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Mac OS 26 hardware support. We’re reading from Mac Rumors, Mac OS 26’s compatibility
⏹️ ▶️ Casey list is expected to be as follows. These are the ones that are compatible. MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro 2019 and up, iMac 2020 and up, Mac Pro 2019 and later,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just by the hair on your chinny chin chin. You made it, John. We did it, Joe. Mac Mini
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M1 and later, Mac Studio, all models, MacBook Air M1 and later.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So most Intel models are no longer supported, only the very last of a couple of them,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, so continuing from Mac rumors, according to individuals familiar with the matter, cited by Apple Insider, the following Macs will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not be supported by the next version of Mac OS. Again, not supported. The MacBook Pro 2018,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the iMac 2019, beloved, dear, dear departed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey friend from Marco and myself, iMac Pro 2017. Yeah. Let’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pour one out. That was a great computer a very long time ago when it came out. God, it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so good. Mac mini 2018, MacBook Air 2020, Intel-based. So those are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not supported anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I went back and reviewed our many past discussions about the moment we thought a Mac OS would
⏹️ ▶️ John drop Intel support, and I think Apple has passed like all of our predictions at this point, because if you just
⏹️ ▶️ John did the straight math about like comparing PowerPC to Intel and
⏹️ ▶️ John 68K to PowerPC, they’re past that date for sure. I think that was like 2024 or something. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe the latest date that any of us had picked was like 2027. And if they do it, it seems like they’re not gonna do it this year’s
⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC, so maybe at next year’s and then you’ve got that one year to run out until 2027 when it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not supported anymore. But anyway, I’m just glad my Mac Pro is still supported, which lets me potentially continue to
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey decision, depending on what is announced. But again, my
⏹️ ▶️ John goal, as discussed in a couple episodes ago, my goal is in 2025 to make a decision and purchase a new Mac, but
⏹️ ▶️ John the my Mac Pro continuing to be supported is nice.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so happy for you, John. Truly I am.
⏹️ ▶️ John And not just my Mac Pro, but like what this means is Intel is supported. Like, yes, it’s great that my Mac Pro is supported
⏹️ ▶️ John and lots of Intel Macs aren’t supported, but it means that Tahoe is not going to be, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John ARM only. It will support Intel.
Jony + Laurene Jobs interview
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, there’s been an interview with Johnny Ive and Lorene Powell Jobs. This was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the Financial Times, which is very, very aggressively paywalled. So I’m going to read from
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of different sources, beginning with Mac Rumors. Johnny Ive and Lorene Powell Jobs have given a rare joint interview
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the Financial Times, addressing their collaboration, their concerns about technology social impact, and OpenAI’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mysterious hardware device. The interview follows the recent acquisition of Ive’s AI startup
⏹️ ▶️ Casey IO by OpenAI. Lorene Powell Jobs, the widow of Steve Jobs, was an early investor in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I.O. She has been closely involved with IVE’s work since his departure from Apple in 2019. Then
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is a summary by Matthew Garrahan.
⏹️ ▶️ John That was not a summary. That’s who the interview is by.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thank you. What I meant was this is from the interview, which was done by Matthew Garrahan. IVE and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Altman have been tight-lipped about the AI-enabled device they are developing. IVE deftly dodges
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my attempts to get him to tell me what it is, but hints that he was motivated by a disillusionment
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with how our relationship with devices has evolved. Many of us would say we have an uneasy relationship with technology
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the moment. He says, whatever the device is driving its design is quote, a sense of we deserve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey better. Humanity deserves better.
⏹️ ▶️ John Nice of him to avoid saying humane in there, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Again, from the article, Ive says the collaboration with Altman and OpenAI has revived his optimism
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in technology. Quote, when I first moved here in 1992, I came because I was characterized by people who genuinely saw that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey their purpose was in service to humanity, to inspire people and to help people create.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t feel that way about this place right now. Powell Jobs agrees. Silicon Valley has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey changed and not necessarily for the better quote. We now know unambiguously that there are dark uses for certain types
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of technology. You can only look at the studies being done on teenage girls, non-anxiety and young people and the rise of mental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey health needs to understand that we’ve gone sideways. Certainly technology wasn’t designed to have that result, but that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the sideways results.
⏹️ ▶️ John So both of these things is like, Oh, technology used to be better and people were more optimistic. they’re trying to help people.
⏹️ ▶️ John I just don’t feel that today. And a lot of people have that feeling, including us. We’ve talked about it on the show, various
⏹️ ▶️ John angles. And I just said, that sounds like you guys too. But very often in the larger
⏹️ ▶️ John technology community, I feel like that feeling is centered a lot on
⏹️ ▶️ John the AI LM stuff, don’t you? And maybe I’m wrong about that. But like my impression is that a lot of people who are grumpy
⏹️ ▶️ John about technology are grumpy about quote unquote AI stuff because they feel like it is taking
⏹️ ▶️ John away creativity from people instead of you doing it yourself. if you just get the computer to do it and all the
⏹️ ▶️ John whole issues over, you know, using other people’s work to make these things or whatever. But like, getting a
⏹️ ▶️ John job, he’s done a bunch of interviews and we’ve quoted a few of them here. When he always says like, I’m disillusioned with technology and the
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that I made, like, I’m disillusioned with what I made and the ill effects and so on and so forth. It’s like, okay, I get
⏹️ ▶️ John to see that people aren’t on their phones too much or whatever, but like,
⏹️ ▶️ John he always tries to connect that too. And that’s why I’m doing this new thing. And I’m like, I’d make that, please make
⏹️ ▶️ John that connection for me better. because I don’t quite see, especially since you’re not going to say exactly what you’re doing,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not as if it’s like, well, of course, now I don’t need to mention that what we’re doing now will will not fall into that trap.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, why won’t it fall into that crap? And it pal job saying specifically
⏹️ ▶️ John about like teenage girls and mental health and anxiety is, you know, they’re on the phones all the time and Instagram or wherever
⏹️ ▶️ John we’ve gone sideways. Technology wasn’t designed to have their result, but it’s what happened. Just coincidentally,
⏹️ ▶️ John that very day I had read something about open AI, a company involved in this thing that had one of
⏹️ ▶️ John the chat bots that they put on their open eyes. GPT’s page was like the number six chat box
⏹️ ▶️ John on this, like leaderboard or whatever of chat bots people are using is some looks maxing GPT.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, and then Molly White has a story in her citation needed newsletter about this thing. And guess what? It’s telling people to feel
⏹️ ▶️ John bad about yourself and to have a, you know, surgery to make yourself look better and saying mean things to people.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is open. I’m like, it’s not open. AI is specific thing, but this is open AI’s own page that they’re promoting
⏹️ ▶️ John this chatbot, which is based on LLM technology, which is doing almost exactly the thing that Lorraine
⏹️ ▶️ John Pell Jobs was complaining about. So again, I ask, OK, technology has some
⏹️ ▶️ John ill effects and you feel that. Therefore.
⏹️ ▶️ John Johnny, I’ve I.O. Acquisition, AI egg like I don’t I’m not seeing the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I do agree with you there. I think that people are disillusioned with tech because of more than just AI.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think AI is the crypto of today in that a lot of people are like, what the what is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this about? I don’t know. I have very complicated thoughts with AI. And I actually had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey another vibe coding session, which is not worth talking about today. We have too much to cover. But it ended well. And so on the one side, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, oh, I kind of like this. This is useful. But the flip side is plagiarism and some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the awful things it’s used for.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I’m not saying
⏹️ ▶️ John those people are right, the disillusionment. I’m just saying I feel that pushback a lot in a lot of circles
⏹️ ▶️ John that people don’t like the AI stuff. I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ John on one strongly on one side or the other, because as you know, like we’ve all said that we found it very useful. And I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like crypto because AI LMs have tons of obvious uses that people are using it for
⏹️ ▶️ John and are willing to pay for it. But there are also lots of downsides. And one of the, like there are many
⏹️ ▶️ John avenues of downsides. And one of them is the thing of like, let’s just make a chat bot and let people talk to it. And that
⏹️ ▶️ John pretty much has always gone wrong. Even when like Fortnite added the Darth Vader thing with the James Earl Jones licensed voice or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John And it started cursing at people like there is no it’s so cool that you can make this look We made a chat
⏹️ ▶️ John bot but like sometimes this looks maxing thing It looks like it’s maliciously made to begin with is trying to make people feel bad about
⏹️ ▶️ John themselves, which is terrible Which is why it shouldn’t be on open a eyes page But even when you’re not trying to do that the fortnight people were trying
⏹️ ▶️ John to have a fun Darth Vader in a game It’s fun to play with like that’s their goal. Surely they don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John want it to start saying bad things things, but it does because this technology is immature and not entirely
⏹️ ▶️ John under the control of the people that make it. And so it ends up going wrong. And so what I see like, Oh, I’m disillusioned
⏹️ ▶️ John with technology and these, these unintended ill side effects. It’s like, well, if you want unintended ill side effects,
⏹️ ▶️ John have I got a technology for you? Apparently it’s going to be the basis for this great new product that you’re working
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. There’s a couple of quick points of clarification on my own part, cause I don’t think I was being clear at all.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think AI is the same as crypto insofar as, you know, it’s equally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey useless. I think to your point, there are definitely good things that come from it. It’s just the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pearl-clutching cause du jour of the moment. And then secondly, I think I distracted myself earlier,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I think other than AI, a lot of people have been saying that, look, our relationship with our phones and, you know, we never look up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore, that’s not healthy. We’re all addicted to social media to some degree, generally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking. That’s probably not healthy. my understanding of, you know, teenage and young-ish
⏹️ ▶️ Casey women, my understanding is they are in particular, as was mentioned earlier, in a real bad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey spot because of the peer and societal pressure that’s put on them. Even more than normal for women, which is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying something. So there’s a lot to be grumbly about with regards to technology, but I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think, nevertheless, I agree with you wholeheartedly that I am not getting from A to B here.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The more we hear from Johnny Ive about what he’s doing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it keeps sounding more and more like betting against the smartphone. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco always say, never bet against the smartphone. You know, we’ve had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a number of attempts over the last few years, people like, you hate your phone,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Well do we have the product for you? And the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem is most people don’t hate their phones, or at least they don’t only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hate their phones. They might hate part of what their phones do or mean to them, but need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco other parts or love other parts or both. Overall, people love their phones.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s why it’s such a popular category that everybody wants and uses constantly. It’s not that we’re being
⏹️ ▶️ Marco forced to look at our phones all the time. It’s that we’re choosing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to. And there’s a lot of modern life and modern utility in life that has been built
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the assumption that everybody will have a smartphone and now requires a smartphone or is best with a smartphone. So people who are like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hate my phone, I’m just gonna carry this weird E-ink nothing phone or whatever, it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, no one actually buys those and no one actually uses those except gadget reviewers because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the actual experience of living life is everyone loves their phones and wants them constantly. And so when people try to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a product saying, we need to make it so you don’t use your phone as much.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t see there being that much real demand for that. Like what people might say is very different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from what they do. And I don’t see a lot of real demand for that. And for the most part,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if people want to use their phone less, or if you want to avoid things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, social media toxicity and stuff, that’s generally a problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with specific apps that you use and participate in, not the phone itself. like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the ones who do say, oh, I wanna use my phone less or I’m spending too much time on my phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That can almost always be dramatically improved by things like delete your account
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Instagram and then delete the app. Delete your account on the social networks and then delete those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps. Like any social network app, delete it and delete your account. If that’s really what you want,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want to get away from that, that is really what you want. And then you have a phone still that can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do things like look up GPS directions to where you’re going for your doctor or whatever. Like you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco still need all that other stuff. Like this is all possible with our phones. You know, when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think about like the idea of Johnny Ive making some kind of Washington Monument that sits in your desk and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Egg, how many times? I just think like, what is this doing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that wouldn’t be better done on my phone? Like if my phone had this ability,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you know, obviously maybe we’ll hear and stuff next week, who knows? But like, if my phone had the abilities of things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the HumanePen or Johnny Ives, you know, Pyramid, like whatever it is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t the phone just have that? And maybe a better question is, if the phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco adds that, which I don’t know what Apple’s gonna do, but Google sure is, if the phone adds that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does this product stop being relevant at all or necessary at all? Like, can Apple or Google
⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally obviate this product in one product cycle by adding some features to their phones?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, Apple can, it seems like.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah. Well, Apple can, they just won’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John They haven’t,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco haven’t yet, yeah. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the ways they would do it would be ways they probably won’t do, but the way they could do it, rather. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all this is to say, like, so when I, when I initially was excited about what Johnny Abbott was saying, and I thought it might be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a cool smartwatch, in part that’s because I think the smartwatch has a better chance of success
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because people can swap out their watch pretty easily, but they’re still wearing a watch and it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I see the more he talks, the more it seems like he wants to make some blob you put on your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco desk that you also have along with your phone and your watch and your laptop and maybe an iPad and like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like, how many devices do we need here? We actually like the ones
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have. We’re not trying to use them less. I’m having less and less faith in this idea. The more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hear about it from Johnny.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s starting to sound more like a kind of like the modern version of those. Remember the star phones? I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John you might remember them. But whatever that company is that first made a kind of like starfish shaped black plastic phone that
⏹️ ▶️ John you put in the middle of conference tables for work.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I forgot the name of the company, but then of course everyone copied them after that or whatever. Anyway, when you go
⏹️ ▶️ John to a meeting room that’s sitting in the middle of the table and when you used to call people on regular landline phones, this is how you did business, but you could
⏹️ ▶️ John have meetings with multiple people and it was a speakerphone with mics and speakers facing in all directions. And the people on the other end had another one
⏹️ ▶️ John and this was before FaceTime and before you could do video over the internet, before Google Meet, before Hangouts,
⏹️ ▶️ John before any of that stuff, these Starphone things exist. And the whole idea was, you can have a meeting without
⏹️ ▶️ John these, like I guess everyone could be on their desk, on their phone, or like you could put one phone on someone’s desk on speakerphone, but here was
⏹️ ▶️ John a purpose-built device that was a hardware thing that it’s like, it’s not doing anything new, but boy,
⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t it way better than all the alternatives using the same technology?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, no, that was better than nothing ever. I hated those so, so much,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because all it produced was a bunch of really distant, terrible conference calls. Hey,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Bob, what do you think? Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco got a lot better over the time. They didn’t. And then you had both ends. You had double talk. You had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people on both ends who couldn’t hear each other. Bob, can you come closer to the mic? I know.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like I said, the early ones were bad, but they got better real fast. And eventually, it was vastly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the worst communication mechanism humans have ever devised.
⏹️ ▶️ John Eventually, it was vastly superior to the alternatives because it did have multiple microphones for noise
⏹️ ▶️ John canceling eventually and multiple speakers pointing in multiple directions. And it was just vastly preferable
⏹️ ▶️ John to people being at their individual desks or around around an old style speakerphone, where it was just a part of the handset
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. So that is like a like what role does hardware have in a device
⏹️ ▶️ John like this? Because I think of it with the egg thing of being like, can’t your phone, can’t you just put your phone down on the table
⏹️ ▶️ John and can’t it just listen to everything you’re saying and see everything that’s on all your screens and put it, throw
⏹️ ▶️ John it on to chat GPT so that it has all the context so that when you ask it a question, it has. It knows everything
⏹️ ▶️ John that went on during this meeting, especially since I would imagine Johnny Ive, like his career
⏹️ ▶️ John and life, uh, pretty rapidly became being a very important person in a very important meeting with
⏹️ ▶️ John a small number of people. And it, wouldn’t it be nice if something was there like taking notes and processing
⏹️ ▶️ John it all. When you had a question, you could just say something that the egg is starting to feel
⏹️ ▶️ John to me a little bit like that. Um, and I, who knows, it may end up being around people’s neck as well, but I,
⏹️ ▶️ John I see their disillusionment they’re talking about and how humanity deserves better but I’m like what role Johnny do
⏹️ ▶️ John you have specifically in making this product better for humanity because you’re sure as hell not working
⏹️ ▶️ John on the LM right like that’s not your thing somebody else is doing that so I don’t know I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know what he’s gonna be doing other than making a really really nice-looking egg
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I don’t know like it’s it’s starting to feel a lot like one of those like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know rich people problem devices it’s like I have too many phones and therefore and I have too
⏹️ ▶️ Marco many people trying to set up meetings with me and I just want to be able to speak to a thing and say, book me a trip to Tahoe.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s starting to sound like it might be more in that direction and I really hope it’s not because that doesn’t work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the world. Trevor
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Burrus Well, we’ll see what happens. But I agree that this seems like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey rich people solving rich people problems, but whatever. But anyway, coming back to the article, I’ve acknowledged
⏹️ ▶️ Casey his own role in the products that have changed our relationship with technology. Quote, while some of the less positive
⏹️ ▶️ Casey consequences were unintentional, I still feel responsibility manifestation of that as a determination to try
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and be useful. Powell jobs describes the current moment is quote the era of the great unknown
⏹️ ▶️ Casey AI. She adds, we’ll quote to transform how we live, work, relate, communicate. It’s not clear what direction the
⏹️ ▶️ John I agree. It’s not clear. Like that’s why I think it’s just not such a slam dunk that like, Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s this problem, disillusionment and unintended consequences. And Johnny feels responsible. And that’s why we’re working on
⏹️ ▶️ John a thing that is totally unknown and we’re not clear which direction it’s headed. I mean, she
⏹️ ▶️ John said the world, not clear what direction the world is headed. It’s like, I’m not clear either. I’m also not clear whether the thing you’re doing
⏹️ ▶️ John will nudge us in further in the right direction or further away from it.
⏹️ ▶️ John So we’ll see. It’s hard to judge this when it’s all mysterious, but if they’re going to do these, these interviews filled with vague
⏹️ ▶️ John and mysterious statements about, about regret and disillusionment with technology, I really feel like
⏹️ ▶️ John I was looking for them to better connect. that’s why I’m doing this thing which will help in these ways
⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s not there so far.
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Stories of Surrender
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, let’s talk topics. And we have the crossover event that everyone’s been waiting for the combination
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Vision Pro Corner and John Syracuse a corner. Who knew? No, John didn’t buy a Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro that would make too much sense.
⏹️ ▶️ John Too much sense. Oh, please. Make no sense, especially now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No. Also, like you would you get motion sick in the first 30 seconds.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I did a whole 30
⏹️ ▶️ John minute thing of the Apple Store without getting motion sick. But yeah, my motion sickness is a problem for me. And so that is certainly a
⏹️ ▶️ John barrier to entry for any product like this, not just the Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro. All right, if there’s nothing for me to do with the Vision Pro next week, I’m mailing mine for the summer.
⏹️ ▶️ John What am I gonna do with that all summer? I can sit on your floor. It’s too hot to put it on your face during the summer.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So anyway, so the reason this is the Vision Pro and John Cena Accusa Corners, because the Bono film Stories
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Surrender was released on Apple TV+. It is available in both 2D and immersive
⏹️ ▶️ Casey formats. It runs about 90 minutes long, which is far and away the most, uh, the, or the longest
⏹️ ▶️ Casey immersive video that Apple’s produced. The next longest, I think was the 15 minute submarine thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Are they automatically putting it on every vision pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reference acknowledged? Uh, I don’t think so, but, uh, we certainly can find out now. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tens of people about it,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? Uh, so anyway, this is, uh, let, actually let me back up. So I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey am not a particular fan of YouTube. I wouldn’t say I actively dislike them, but I don’t,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would self describe as someone who will listen and not be grumbly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it, but I never, ever, ever seek out you two, which is in contrast to John
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and jump in and interrupt whenever you’re ready. But I would say this is, or was at least your favorite band. Is that fair to say?
⏹️ ▶️ John I would say I would listen as my all time favorite band. And that encompasses the fact that right now I’m probably
⏹️ ▶️ John more excited by like the new churches album or something, but my all time favorite band is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you. And John, you cut your teeth on what was the name of the lyrics site? What was the official name of it?
⏹️ ▶️ John The U2 Lyrics Archive. Very imaginative.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, well, there you go. It’s like the Accidental Tech Podcast, am I right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Anyways, so…
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s no the. There’s no the in our show. How many times? I need to get like a PR, a brand marketing person to just follow
⏹️ ▶️ John Casey around smacking the
⏹️ ▶️ John his mouth. It’s just Accidental Tech Podcast. It’s three words. It begins with the letter A. There’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we really doing this?
⏹️ ▶️ John I just want to be clear. I want to get it on the record on the show, kind of like the what do the markings mean on the bootleg artwork just
⏹️ ▶️ John for the record as seen on the website. The show is accidental tech
⏹️ ▶️ John podcast. Three words.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. Here in Apple podcast commentary, we don’t use definite article.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was about to say, every time I hear you say the iPhone, John, I’m going to correct you from
⏹️ ▶️ John now on. Oh, that’s you know, I’m just saying what it is. Apple can say what their thing is. I don’t have to listen to that. But I feel like you as a
⏹️ ▶️ John member of the show should be on board with the name. Is you’re kind of like the people who you’re like the people who work at Apple who say we believe
⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone is whatever. That’s you. You have to do that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see. Moving along. So I am not a particular fan of you two. Uh, I have no
⏹️ ▶️ Casey particular opinion about Bono as an individual. Like he seems like a decent guy. He’s certainly donated a pile of money and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey worked hard for charity. So I respect that. Uh, in this hour and a half long thing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a just, well, it was a single person stage show,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess where it’s him telling stories of his childhood that he thinks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are things are relevant with occasional performances of stripped down U2 songs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I went into it being like, I don’t know about this at all. And the first few minutes I was like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wow, I really don’t know about this at all. I get that Bono was influential and whatever, but really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an hour and a half about listen to me in my life, says the man with like 500 podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Casey episodes, but that’s neither here nor there.
⏹️ ▶️ John the opening of this thing was actually him acknowledging that exact fact like who here
⏹️ ▶️ John wants to hear this guy talk about himself?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. And, and I was not in at all in the beginning of it,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I have to concede. I found it surprisingly moving and I really enjoyed it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I was not expecting that whatsoever. I really came in, I am with as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey open a mind as I could given my priors, but I was expecting to be like, well, that was interesting, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey waste of my time. And I don’t think it was a waste of my time. I actually enjoyed it. However, you and I did not watch the same movie
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because you watched the 2D version and I watched the immersive version. So before I talk about the differences, I’d like to hear your perspective
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on just the movie itself and I presume how much you enjoyed it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you mentioned this is the longest, like, immersive thing that Apple’s put out, but this was kind of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, a Nolan Batman movie. It wasn’t all immersive, right? Like, some parts were IMX and some parts weren’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s right, and I want to explore that more later, but first I’d prefer, if you don’t mind, to get a feel
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of what you thought of it in general.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I always plan to watch this eventually, but here’s the thing as a extremely big YouTube
⏹️ ▶️ John fan I suspected that there would be nothing in this So this is a it’s just based on
⏹️ ▶️ John a one-man show which is based on a book which is based on the person which is Based on the history of the band. I suspected there would be nothing in
⏹️ ▶️ John this thing that I have not heard before I’m kind of an obsessive person when I first got into YouTube. I was
⏹️ ▶️ John in middle school I think I’ve said the story before I you know got everything that I could on them I
⏹️ ▶️ John went to the school library and took out the microfiches for all the old issues of like Time Magazine
⏹️ ▶️ John and newspaper articles. I read everything there is to read about this band. And that’s when I was in school.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it just continued on with the age of the internet. So like, I don’t think there’s a story Bono could tell that
⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t heard before. Or like, you know, I know about everything that was a revelation to
⏹️ ▶️ John you, I had heard seven versions of. Now here’s the thing, I went in this hoping maybe, maybe this would be
⏹️ ▶️ John like stuff that I hadn’t heard before. Like that finally he’s ready to
⏹️ ▶️ John go delve into more private detail. And the example I always pull out is the Andre Agassi
⏹️ ▶️ John autobiography, a big Andre Agassi fan. And he put out a book called Open. It was aptly named
⏹️ ▶️ John not just because of the tennis pun and the open era and all that other stuff, but also because he opened up his life in a way
⏹️ ▶️ John that was extremely unflattering to himself. That is rare that someone who’s
⏹️ ▶️ John rich and famous will write about themselves and say, you’d never heard any of this stuff because
⏹️ ▶️ John it is the worst of me. Like, you know, only people who ever do that is like someone who you know, like, I don’t know, like Rob
⏹️ ▶️ John Lowe or something, you know, becomes a Robert Downey Jr. I forget which one of these people has just become like a womanizing, drug
⏹️ ▶️ John addicted, alcoholic and flames out in the 80s and everybody knows it. And then they get older and they write a tell
⏹️ ▶️ John all book. It’s like, we already know all this happened to you. Like, it’s not a surprise that you were on drugs and womanizing doing terrible things.
⏹️ ▶️ John What we don’t get is, hey, you think of me as this great famous person and probably haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ John heard anything bad about me, But really, I was in a bad place. And let me tell you how
⏹️ ▶️ John terrible things were. That’s the book Andre Agassi opened. He is 100% open
⏹️ ▶️ John in an extremely unflattering way about himself. And I don’t think people have any obligation to do that. Celebrities
⏹️ ▶️ John have their right to keep whatever they want to themselves. But very often, celebrities say, well, I want to write about
⏹️ ▶️ John myself. But when you’re writing about yourself, like, maybe I’ll leave out the worst things that I’ve ever
⏹️ ▶️ John done, you know, maybe I’ll leave out the things that no one knows about. If there’s already a story about
⏹️ ▶️ John me doing this thing, maybe I’ll tell that story because everyone kind of knows, but now they get to hear my side of it or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if you’ve never heard about this other thing that I did, I’m not going to mention it. And so Bono’s show
⏹️ ▶️ John here is stories that he’s told before. The amount of himself that he’s willing to put out
⏹️ ▶️ John there is the same amount he’s always been. And again, there’s no reason he needs to put out any of this. He could have kept it all
⏹️ ▶️ John entirely to himself. He doesn’t owe the public anything about his life. But he chose to say, I’m going to tell you about myself
⏹️ ▶️ John in this book and in this stage show. And what he tells you is theatrically performed versions
⏹️ ▶️ John of stories and things that he’s told before. I’m very familiar with him as a character and as
⏹️ ▶️ John a performer. I was impressed with how well the old guy after all he’s gone through. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John he mentioned all the surgery and everything, which I think was many years ago now. But anyway, he’s still
⏹️ ▶️ John doing pretty good, like at various times on tours, his voice has failed him because he,
⏹️ ▶️ John especially in the beginning, did not sing the quote unquote right right way and I think he still doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John uh but he’s got pretty good pipes for an old dude uh who’s the right he I like how he brags about himself
⏹️ ▶️ John that the the heart doctor said he had 130 of the expected lung capacity for someone at his
⏹️ ▶️ John age I’m like well he does sing for a living so that tracks but um and then you know like you said the stripped
⏹️ ▶️ John down versions of songs um not really that big of a fan of the
⏹️ ▶️ John stripped down things and theatrically I like how they incorporated them into the show but anyway
⏹️ ▶️ John it was fine like I wasn’t super impressed by it maybe if you’ve never heard all this stuff or didn’t know anything about Bono it would be much
⏹️ ▶️ John more interesting but I’ve literally read multiple books about the band in addition to all
⏹️ ▶️ John the articles and everything so I felt like there’s very little public information that I don’t already know
⏹️ ▶️ John about this band and honestly I did miss the other band members because they balance him
⏹️ ▶️ John out as he tries to talk about in the show my my you know his band mates are not always on the
⏹️ ▶️ John same page as him. And the band is kind of a thing where they all have to agree. And so and they don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John often always agree. And so I feel like that was missing a little bit, even though he tried to bring it back in
⏹️ ▶️ John by saying, here’s what this person would say. Here’s what that person would say. But I don’t know. I like
⏹️ ▶️ John it. It’s I don’t think I would recommend this as somebody who’s like, I don’t know what you choose all about and what the music’s
⏹️ ▶️ John all about. Like I would maybe write around even rattle and hum over this, which is a very narrow slice of
⏹️ ▶️ John time without much perspective. but it is actually a good concert movie.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that doesn’t surprise me that you both knew everything and thought it was fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, but with that said, you and I, as I mentioned earlier, did not watch the same,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, show movie. Um, for me it was as described, it was very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey much like a portions filmed in IMAX movie where for a lot of it,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was in an all black room with a screen in front of me. And the, in the film
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is 99% black and white. And so there’s a screen in front of me that’s playing a black and white movie. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there were times that immersive things happened. And so I was able to get some press
⏹️ ▶️ Casey shots that Apple provided, because I can’t take a screenshot in the Vision Pro. So you just got to deal with the shots
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that Apple provided. They’ll be in the show notes and I’m putting them in the chat room for the people that are listening live.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But But there, as this performing is happening, both, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the verbal only performances as well as the musical performances,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot of times, especially the non-music parts were 2D,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even for me. But what was fascinating is, and I didn’t realize this until I scrubbed through the 2D
⏹️ ▶️ Casey version of the program, there were illustrations and like adornments and annotations
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I think Bono might have done. I’m not 100% sure about that, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I spent a lot of time looking at the writing and going, is that a handwriting font? Are there three versions of that T and the
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey three versions?
⏹️ ▶️ John Or is he handwriting everyone or is it not his handwriting?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also, I read somewhere, which I can’t place. So I might be lying to myself and to you, but I thought I read
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that he used procreate to draw it all so they could like replay the brushstrokes,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you will. So, so anyways, but what was interesting was, so a lot of the show,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey he, because it’s just him, he represents other people that he’s speaking about and allegedly speaking with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as just a chair on stage. So when he talks about the other members of U2, he has three chairs that are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on stage. One for, you know, Edge, one for the bassist, one for the drummer. Forgive me, I don’t remember their names.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Isn’t it The Edge? Ha
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey done. Sometimes
⏹️ ▶️ John they just call him Edge, so that Edge is appropriate as short for The Edge. And there was actually a joke in
⏹️ ▶️ John the show about Pavarotti not remembering the bass player’s name. So you’re in good company, Casey.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, there you go. But there was a lot of times when he was describing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being in a room in a pub in Dublin, I believe, and he’s talking to his father.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And he has this like kind of cushy chair instead of just like a wooden chair next to him. And you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey supposed to imagine the father in the chair next to him. And so he’ll lean over and look to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the left-hand side of the frame, which is his right, and say something to his dad. And then he’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lean, look the opposite direction to mimic or explain
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what dad had just said. And what was fascinating was, that’s all you got, right? You didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have anything else. He was just looking over and maybe they would reframe the shot. But there was no illustration, no annotation,
⏹️ ▶️ John There was. Like, I’m looking at these screenshots and some of these things I recognize from the 2D
⏹️ ▶️ John version, but I’m sure there was way less of them. Obviously none of them broke the frame or like went outside the TV because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can do. Right. talking to his dad who he had like three different versions of dad, daddy, dad,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and dadda or whatever. It was very, very weird. But anyways, uh, when he was talking to his dad,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there was an illustrated version of his dad sitting there. Like he wasn’t talking, but you could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah, no, we didn’t get that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly. And you could see the illustrated dad and behind him was an illustrated bar with an illustrated
⏹️ ▶️ Casey barkeep, like working on like polishing a glass or something like that. This is wildly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey different from what you saw. And And I’m not sure if that’s good, bad or indifferent, but, or other, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I find that fascinating that these are two very different cuts of the same thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the other thing that I thought was fascinating was in a way that I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can’t say I’ve ever experienced before, the transitions between immersive and non-immersive
⏹️ ▶️ Casey were, I wouldn’t go so far as to say seamless, but really,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really close. They were incredibly good. And there were times that I could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell, like in, in the example, um, it was the middle example. I think it’s called stadium.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey He’s performing at a stadium. And I believe you saw this illustration in the 2d version,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m not mistaken, but it’s like all immersive and encompassing all around you. And what’s interesting is if
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you look very, very, very closely, not in this image, but as you’re watching the movie,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can see the border of the 2d screen, if you will, that, That’s presenting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the the hymn portion and then you know, all the illustration is around that But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then that eventually fades out and the transition between 2d and 3d is so incredibly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey well done And I was so blown away by how well they handled this Whether
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or not one likes these adornments and annotations and whatnot. I thought it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey added to it I thought I I mean I liked it But if if one didn’t if you didn’t john or whoever’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey watching this didn’t I get that? But I thought it was incredibly fascinating and incredibly cool the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way in which they approach this by basically cutting two totally different movies And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all in all like I said, I really liked it and by the end of it. I was surprisingly moved by it And you know here I’m I’m hearing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Some of these incredibly popular you two songs whose names I’m now forgetting off because I’m you know talking extemporaneously
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you know some of these songs I’m actually getting like as I’m watching this I’m actually getting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little choked up like I know this song This is an incredibly good song in the name of love, which probably
⏹️ ▶️ Casey isn’t the title of the song, but it is not.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s in parentheses though.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, okay, there you go. Is it stop in the name of love?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s something different entirely, but I actually got like a little choked up by this and that’s not usually
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my style. I don’t know if I was just having a very vulnerable moment when I watched it, but again, I was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really impressed because here it was. I went into this thinking, I don’t care what this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey man has to say. And by the end of it, But I feel like he leaned, Bono leaned into it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey enough that he won me over by like halfway through. And even though it was pretentious and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of self-centered and whatever, I actually really, really enjoyed it. And again, as a technical
⏹️ ▶️ Casey experience, if you happen to have a Vision Pro or if you have the time to go to the Apple Store, I presume they’ll let you watch a few
⏹️ ▶️ Casey minutes of it, I suggest trying it. Marco, I know you’re kind of allergic to the Vision Pro at this point, but if you happen to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bored, then I suggest giving it just a few minutes to try because I really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think it is very, very, very well done.
⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t been bored in years. Yeah, if you’ve never heard these stories before, it is, he does have a moving story and the
⏹️ ▶️ John story of the band, the fact that they’re still together and his, you know, his dad dying and his surgery and everything. It is, it’s,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a good story. Well, just because I’ve heard it before, it doesn’t mean it’s not worth hearing for the first time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And I can’t stress enough. I know I’ve said it two times or three times already, but as an example of how to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do immersive, I thought it was really cool and very, very different than anything else Apple
Plex PSA
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, public service announcement. This should hopefully be quick. Plex is apparently turning the money
⏹️ ▶️ Casey spigot when it comes to selling data. And so I got an email from them, like a marketing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey email, and I already long since deleted it, but it was like, hey, just FYI, we’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ask you to opt out of, or not even ask you, we’re going to offer to you to opt out of some stuff if you’re interested
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in that. And of course, my spidey senses started tingling and I was like, I’m sorry, what? And so if you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey go to plex.tv slash vendors hyphen US, or at least that’s where I get redirected to. Perhaps
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just slash vendors for other locales. You get a mile
⏹️ ▶️ Casey long list of things that you can opt out of. And they do,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey once you’re logged in, they do have an, I think like an all no button at the very top, but I would still scroll
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this mile long list just to double check. This is probably not something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that any of the listeners of the show would be interested in, insofar as you should go ahead and hit all no and then save it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey On the flip side of this, though, my understanding from those in the EU, after I had posted about this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Mastodon, is pretty much everyone in the EU said, oh, I’ve already opted out, which I presume
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is an EU legal thing, and if so, kudos to the EU. That’s good.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I was already opted out too, and I assumed it’s because we’ve actually talked about this before and I opted out at that time, but who
⏹️ ▶️ John knows? It’s hard to tell. But I was already opted out as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, well I was not and this is the sort of thing I would have done, so either I had forgotten to do it, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tracks, when it originally happened, or maybe not. But either way,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe I’m attributing to the EU something that wasn’t the EU at all. But one way or another, you should go
⏹️ ▶️ Casey check it out. We’ll put a link in the show notes.
Casey’s SwiftUI bug
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Additionally, I have a quick appeal if you don’t mind. I probably should not be shining a light
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on a bug in my own app, but here I am, everybody. Sometime I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only started getting reports about this in the last couple of months, but sometimes semi recently, I noticed that people
⏹️ ▶️ Casey were starting to report that if you go to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a particularly long like cast list, be that or a particularly long
⏹️ ▶️ Casey person with a long filmography. And if I remember, I’ll put a link to one of these in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you do this in Call Sheet, and you scroll to the bottom, especially if you do it super duper duper quickly,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then scroll back and go kind of go back and forth a couple of times, what can end up happening is you can get a bunch of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey empty cells in the table view that represents that view, right? And so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey instead of seeing the entire filmography or the entire cast list, you just see blanks.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not sure, maybe I’m holding it wrong. This is a SwiftUI list behind the scenes, and maybe I’m bending it to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the point of breaking But I don’t know how to fix it. And I did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my part. You know, it’s that gif, right? You
⏹️ ▶️ John should go to Labs at WWDC.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will go to Labs at WWDC. But… Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco file a DTS ticket.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I thought about filing a DTS ticket. And I’m not against doing that. And I probably will do that after WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I don’t get any good answers. But I’m trying to do… I’m doing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that thing which I can do because it’s partially my show. That is, Accidental Tech Podcast, Jon,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is partially my show. And I’m trying to shine a light on this bug. I’ll put-
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean bug. You’re trying to shine a light on bug.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey On bug, that’s right. I will put feedback. I will put feedback number
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the show notes. If anyone has seen this and has a workaround, please, please, please go
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ahead and reach out. But if you happen to be on the SwiftUI team at Apple, which is probably nobody, but you never
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, could happen, I will put a link in the show notes to my toot about this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and to the bug that I’m talking about. Now, I will say,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you look at the toot that I posted on Mastodon, what you think I’m complaining about is a bunch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of log messages, which is kind of true, but that I actually don’t care about that much.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey In the logs, it says, list failed to visit cell content, returning an empty cell. Blah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey blah, blah, blah, blah. Please file a bug report, which I’ve done. But what I’m actually complaining
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about, like, I don’t really care that this stuff is in the log. What I actually care about is the fact that my users are seeing blank rows
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my app. And again, maybe this is not me, I’m not sure. But help me, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people, you’re my only
⏹️ ▶️ John It does say, please file a bug report. So whoever put this log message in their code didn’t expect it to be
⏹️ ▶️ John hit. And they’re saying, look, if the code ever reaches here and I emit this log message, something in my code,
⏹️ ▶️ John meaning Apple’s code, has gone wrong. So at the very least, that is something that someone should look at.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, but I would really, really hate if whoever gets this on their desk says,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, sure, I’ll just delete the log message. Problem solved. Like, that’s not what I’m asking.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think they’ll do that. Someone who puts this log message in wants to know if it’s being hidden,
⏹️ ▶️ John so now they’ll get a report that it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is. Well, one way or another, please, if you’re an Apple person, I beg of you, do what you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can to help me. You can do it totally on the download, you can do it publicly, however you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey want. I will be happy to sing your praises and or send you accidental, not the, but Accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tech Podcast stickers if you’re interested in that. Help me, you’re my only hope.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m gonna make ATP shirts, not TATP shirts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I bet we actually have some relevant people listening to our show. Because the lower
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and mid-level people at Apple seems like it’s just fine. It’s the higher level people that maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we go in and out of favor with. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that’s very fair. We’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talk about that here in a second. But yeah, if there’s anything you could do, I would really, really appreciate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. And yeah, just let me know.
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco make one, it’s like, you pop it in the microwave or the oven for like two minutes and it’s done. You’re like, that’s it?
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WWDC hopes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey WWDC time as we sit here on Wednesday night, the 4th of June, WWDC keynote
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is Monday coming up, which is what number is that? The 9th of June. None
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us are going to be there. I don’t believe any of us got offered to be there. And I know you two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey definitely said that you couldn’t go anyway. I had booked a bunch of refundable travel in this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey past weekend, refunded myself, because it was clear that I was not getting an invite this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I’m going to be there. Take it out, whatever you will. I don’t know. But let’s talk about hopes and predictions.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it starts, I think, perhaps with this animation and tweet that was put up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by Greg Joswiak earlier today, where it has WWDC 25 with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an Apple logo, a rainbow, like the rainbow thing, and the Swift logo, all reflecting the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very colorful WWDC 25 at the bottom of this image. So what are we thinking, gentlemen?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, there was also the thing from their webpage where it says WC25 and they added this slogan, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know, a couple of days ago, it says sleek peak. And it’s kind of weird for them saying
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s gonna be a peak. It’s like, there’s gonna be a dev build too, right? So I’m not just
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco saying. I mean, I hope.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s like, here’s just a peak. Anyway, so this is the OS redesign thing. And I think that’s one of the first
⏹️ ▶️ John obvious predictions and hopes. The prediction is, as we’ve discussed in the past, Apple’s redesigning all their operating
⏹️ ▶️ John systems with a new look, probably something glassy. What was the code name?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey or something. Yeah, that’s right.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yep. Solarium, not Solarium, the, uh, the Mac arcade game. Um, and
⏹️ ▶️ John so there’s artwork and these animations. Like it’s basically like looks, I would say like frosted
⏹️ ▶️ John glass, would you say? Like frosted glass stuff that as Casey pointed out reflects the colorful logo
⏹️ ▶️ John of WWDC into it. That that’s been the rumors about this. Um, basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Is your desk frosted?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, not anymore. I got rid of that a long time ago because I have the standing desk now.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right. That was clear, that was clear and not frosted though.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was also clear and not frosted, but that’s neither there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and so, I mean, obviously, my personal hope is
⏹️ ▶️ John that, as I said this before, like big redesigns are dangerous and tricky, but like there’s lots of
⏹️ ▶️ John things about the current Mac OS in particular, the current Mac OS UI, both the look and the design of it that
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t like. And so here now, a week before WWDC, is my last chance to have
⏹️ ▶️ John the hope that, hey, maybe those things that I don’t like will be made better.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because, you know, I didn’t think the whole OS needs to be redesigned or anything, but you know, if you’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John redesign everything, you’re probably gonna redesign the parts that I don’t like, and maybe I will like
⏹️ ▶️ John the new ones better. The fear is that all the ones that I like just fine will
⏹️ ▶️ John get worse, but we’ll see how it goes. So, you know, and as I said, when we first discussed this,
⏹️ ▶️ John even if it’s not to my personal liking, some, you know, if it just looks cool,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get a little bit of a high out of that of like because a lot of things that Apple’s put out, maybe they end up being not
⏹️ ▶️ John so practical, not a great idea, but they look really cool. And that’s fun. And so I am actually
⏹️ ▶️ John looking forward to seeing what all the new OS is look like.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m trying to be optimistic about it because it’s not like I’m saying everything’s perfect, and they should
⏹️ ▶️ John never change it. Now, like, I do think there should be change. I didn’t think necessarily this was the year to change
⏹️ ▶️ John all the OS’s, but it’s what they’re doing. So I don’t know. That’s how I’m feeling about that.
⏹️ ▶️ John There was a good article by what’s his name that I put it
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey in. Sebastian DeWitt
⏹️ ▶️ John about lots of people have made predictions and of course, a talented artist and designers can
⏹️ ▶️ John not just make predictions, but they do mock ups, essentially based on like the artwork that we see from Apple and everything,
⏹️ ▶️ John saying this is what the new UI could look like. This is what I hope it will look like. This is the
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, people have their own pet peeves. Like, I think that flat design has gone too far. and we need more dimensionality
⏹️ ▶️ John and physicality. I think Sebastian made a couple, I think it was,
⏹️ ▶️ John had made a couple of good points about like, one of the things that Apple can do that its competitors would find
⏹️ ▶️ John more difficult to copy is make a look that requires like,
⏹️ ▶️ John tremendous like precision and consistency because Apple controls the hardware and the software stacks.
⏹️ ▶️ John They can, of all these different platforms, they can very precisely ensure that this particular
⏹️ ▶️ John effect, which anybody could do, But it would be like other designers and other platforms like Android, we said, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John we would never do that because it would just be such a pain to try to make that look consistent everywhere and not be ugly across the
⏹️ ▶️ John vast range of Android stuff that’s out there. But Apple can do that because they are targeting a smaller
⏹️ ▶️ John amount of hardware and they control everything. And so one of their potential advantages
⏹️ ▶️ John is do things that their competitors would essentially find impractical to implement. Now,
⏹️ ▶️ John that doesn’t mean Apple’s ideas are going to be good ideas or that people will like them or that they will improve things. but it is an
⏹️ ▶️ John advantage that they can, they can tackle tasks that are just too annoying to implement on
⏹️ ▶️ John other platforms. So I hope they take advantage of that and do make something that looks
⏹️ ▶️ John cooler than we expect because you know, like aero glass from windows is what this reminds me of. Honestly, I forget when
⏹️ ▶️ John that was because I’m not a windows expert, but there was a time when Microsoft many years ago was super heavily into all
⏹️ ▶️ John the windows are going to be clear and glassy because that’s what Apple did with awkward kind of, but we’re going to take that to
⏹️ ▶️ John the nth degree and it was not good and nobody liked it and you could see through too many
⏹️ ▶️ John things and it doesn’t really persist to this day and that’s kind of how I feel about how Mac OS is as well
⏹️ ▶️ John so you know cautiously optimistic to see what the new OS looks like but at this point I
⏹️ ▶️ John fully expect it Apple is teasing it you know how are you guys feeling about the new look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am a little excited and a little scared I’m scared because I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really don’t know if I trust today’s Apple to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco execute a really sweeping redesign well on multiple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco levels on you know design choices and on software quality
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you know when you look at you know it look at the last couple of years of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s platforms and like you know we’ve been in a mostly okay plays with quality but like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have a huge you know AI revolution going on in you know the rest of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the tech business you have Apple presumably at least a little bit on fire trying to catch up with that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope so they should be you have them launching a new platform in vision pro that seems to have gone nowhere but you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know a lot of resources were put into that right now do I trust them in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that state to have delivered a sweeping redesign of all of their
⏹️ ▶️ Marco platforms in the middle of all that? Like in the last couple of years? I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It seems like that’s a lot to ask of a company to do that now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this environment, like on that scale. So I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m a little scared that they might have just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like disrupted everything you know kind of unwisely or at a bad time or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a distraction you know and And I don’t think that was necessarily the goal if they did it, but like, I think it’s going to serve that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco function and I’m sure they leaned into it a little bit. But like, I don’t know if I trust
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any company to deliver that sweeping of a redesign in that kind of context,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even if it was somebody else. But like, I also don’t know if I trust Apple to do that, and today’s Apple. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also am not sure I trust today’s Apple, you know, led by the Allendie design team over there. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t think I trust them to make great decisions with the UI, like design-wise either,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because look at what they have done since they have been in charge of software design.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’ve been in charge for a long time. What we have been using is their designs. The system
⏹️ ▶️ Marco settings app on the Mac, which still remains both functionally and visually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco atrocious, that’s their design. It’s those people doing this design.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I want to be excited because a UI redesign, if done well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can be really invigorating to the entire ecosystem. It can be really cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I don’t know that I trust those people at this time to have executed well on that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I hope I am wrong about that. The UI redesign is actually what I am most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco excited about, even though that one single thing will keep all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of us developers busy for a year. Like you know if it’s that if it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that significant of a redesign, which we don’t know how significant it is, but if it’s that significant of a redesign
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will be the only thing we can work on for a long time. Like we will have to adopt our apps to it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also that raises the question of like what is Apple’s position with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers right now? How excited are developers going to be to have to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all this work for Apple? Now there’s always going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco small developers who are big Apple fans who will do whatever they ask us to do. But then there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also medium and big companies where it’s like Apple’s relationship with all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers is a little strained and with medium and big companies it’s extra strained. Are they going to be willing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to put in the effort to adopt this new design? I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think anyone’s going to be jumping at it from medium size and large companies. So there’s a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of kind of mixed feelings going on with me about this. It could go a bunch of different ways. It’s a huge
⏹️ ▶️ Marco risk and it could pay off big. We will see. I hope it does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because if it doesn’t pay off big, it’s going to be a huge distraction and pain in the butt for all of us and it’s going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco harm our platforms that we love and care about so much. So I hope it’s not that. But I am a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wary. I am excited about other things. Like so… Trevor
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Burrus Well, hold on. With regard to the redesign, I think I feel similarly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to Marco but far more extremely. In so far as if you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ask me as a user, I’m really excited because I think that, you know, if you take Sebastian’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mockups, which obviously who knows if they’re going to be right or not, but Sebastian’s really talented. And as an
⏹️ ▶️ Casey aside, if you haven’t read this post, it’s really, really, really worth your time. It
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was not at all pretentious and it spells out the history and how did we get here and it’s really good. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyways, even I read it. That’s saying something y’all. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyways, when I put on the Vision Pro, and obviously we were just talking about it a few minutes ago,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever my or our qualms about whether that thing should exist, whether it has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey achieved the goals it set out to do, putting all that aside for a second, the hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as I’ve said many times unquestionably, it’s like strapping the future to your face. Granted, it’s a heavy future. Granted, it’s a little bit of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an awkward future, but it’s the future. But I actually think, and I’ve said this in the past, in a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ways, the software feels like the future. And I think it’s in no small part because it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has that new coat of paint. You know, a lot of these same affordances that we’re allegedly going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting on the other platforms find their roots in Vision OS. And granted, it’s different
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because Vision OS has a real strong concept of depth that no other platform
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that Apple has really does, or certainly not to the same degree. But I love
⏹️ ▶️ Casey using Vision OS from a visual perspective. It just looks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool. And I get that there’s not a lot that I feel like I can get done efficiently
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Vision OS, but it’s just fun to use. And if that comes to other platforms,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a user, I am so here for it. And I opened up the invites app again for the first time since we talked about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it a few months ago. And this is a less extreme version of what we’re allegedly going to get, but I think it looks great.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really do. So, as a user, I’m really genuinely quite excited for this. I’m sure
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they will go way too far. They’ll swing for the fences. That’s baseball, Marco. They’ll swing for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco fences and they’ll swing for fences.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. And they may or may not hit a home run. Also baseball. But nevertheless,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it could be a really fun and interesting time to be an Apple fan. And goodness
⏹️ ▶️ Casey knows I and I think the three of us would love to have fun nitpicking icons and fonts and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatnot rather than the stuff we’ve been doing. Putting all that aside and taking off that hat and putting on my developer hat.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh God, please no. Because I do not want to spend
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all summer figuring this out.
⏹️ ▶️ John On the optimistic side, don’t you think that if they do a good job of this, none of us should have to update our
⏹️ ▶️ John apps too much? I mean, there’s always things you have to do. That’s the thing. If you’re not a developer, you’re like, you’ve made
⏹️ ▶️ John things so they look correct with the current set of widgets. And you maybe think, well, if Apple will just make
⏹️ ▶️ John those same widgets look different, the metrics are going to change. There’ll be different appearances for certain things. and
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re gonna have to revisit every screen and say, does this still look okay in the new OS? Or do I have to
⏹️ ▶️ John branch and say, well, when you’re on this OS or newer, adjust the metric so it looks good with this new thing on the
⏹️ ▶️ John old one. You know, it’s this thing we have to do, but if they don’t, if this ends up not being,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if the metrics don’t change that much, if the widgets, if the particular
⏹️ ▶️ John options we choose for each controls don’t radically change how they look, hopefully we won’t have to change
⏹️ ▶️ John that much. And same deal for big developers, like Marco said, that aren’t really going to update their apps.
⏹️ ▶️ John If we can at least persuade them to build against the new SDK, well, they just say like, Oh, well, we built into the
⏹️ ▶️ John SDK. And all the buttons are glass ship, and it’s fine. Like that will be the more optimistic case of
⏹️ ▶️ John like it won’t require huge changes. Unfortunately, especially on the phone, if
⏹️ ▶️ John the rumors are to be believed and Sebastian also like essentially incorporated those rumors, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John for example, whatever they called on the phone tab bars, the little bottom bar on the bottom,
⏹️ ▶️ John that being we talked about of this and patch was floating again, so it’s not stuck against the bottom of the screen, but instead it’s floating
⏹️ ▶️ John on top of the content. That changes your eye in an annoying ways.
⏹️ ▶️ John It changes how you have to lay out everything. It changes what your insets are. It changes the metrics. It changes
⏹️ ▶️ John the height of the available content, but you have to draw the content that’s gonna be behind it too, because you’re gonna see it
⏹️ ▶️ John there. And that’s super annoying and not great in an example of a change that will require
⏹️ ▶️ John more attention. But there is the possibility, especially on the Mac, I feel like, kind of like how they changed like dialogues
⏹️ ▶️ John in the Mac. Remember when they used to be horizontal for all of life of the Mac and they just said, no, they’re portrait orientation.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t like it either. They still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco look worse than what they replaced.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s a change that they made and that change didn’t require Mac developers
⏹️ ▶️ John to do much of anything except for, like I said, look at their, how does my
⏹️ ▶️ John dialogue that I carefully designed for the old layout look in the new one? And if it’s horrendous, I’ll fix it, but otherwise
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s still functional. So I don’t know, like I just,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t wanna have to update my app for the new look either and I’m a little bit afraid of the new look, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I think if they do it in a clever way, the amount of actual work required
⏹️ ▶️ John to update to it shouldn’t be that bad. Now, the real thing they have to deal with is,
⏹️ ▶️ John hopefully people like this, like forget about developers, forget about Apple, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole rest of the world who’s not Apple or developers, which is pretty much everybody,
⏹️ ▶️ John they better think this looks, I don’t know, at least interesting or cool, or like makes
⏹️ ▶️ John people wanna get like, and in that way, like just changing it is an important task
⏹️ ▶️ John because like they went with flat design and basically that was an industry trend. And now that trend has
⏹️ ▶️ John spread across the industry. So now all the industry looks very similar to that. Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John going off in a different direction, which is seemingly based on their concept art is actually kind of a back to the future type
⏹️ ▶️ John thing of like, well, actually, remember Aqua with all the transparency? Let’s go back to that because we went so far away from
⏹️ ▶️ John that. Maybe we’ll bring a little bit of that back. What it will do, I think, is make the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John look more different than Android phones than it does now, even though Android’s going, not that they
⏹️ ▶️ John went into frosted glass, but they’re going into mixing in colors and stuff with the rest of this thing as well. But
⏹️ ▶️ John differentiation, right? Differentiation and hopefully differentiation in a way where we won’t be talking about three
⏹️ ▶️ John weeks from now, or maybe when the OS comes out, we won’t be talking about how everyone is refusing to upgrade to iOS 26,
⏹️ ▶️ John just like they refused to upgrade to iOS 18 because the Photos app changed, right? That better not be
⏹️ ▶️ John the story from Apple’s perspective. They want people to either be neutral on it or to think it’s cool.
⏹️ ▶️ John And in any case, it has to look different than other phones. So in that capacity, in differentiation
⏹️ ▶️ John and saying, Android and Apple have been too similar to each other for too long, Apple’s gonna put a
⏹️ ▶️ John new stake in the ground, which is a little bit like their old steak, but whatever, with this glassy thing. And now
⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll be able to tell, oh, is that the new iPhone? Is that the new iOS? Cause it looks different. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now you’ll be able to tell, oh, I know that’s an iPhone cause iPhone looks like frosted glass. And hopefully the story isn’t, yeah, iPhone looks like
⏹️ ▶️ John frosted glass and everybody hates it. And there’ll be like one mean person on TikTok saying mean things about Apple. That’ll just be the end of their whole
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Yeah. I really think that this could be great. And as a developer, again, I’m not looking too forward
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to this. It’s hard to get excited about doing what feels
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like busy work. Now, if this looks as great as I hope it does, and I think it might, then it won’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel as much like busy work. But it is a big ask. I think it was Marco that said a minute ago that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is asking a lot at this particular time with the vibes the way they are right now. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hopefully, it won’t be too bad as John was saying. Hey, John and I, and I think Marco now is, Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re almost all on SwiftUI, right? And John, your latest stuff is SwiftUI and certainly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey CallSheet is pretty much exclusively SwiftUI. And that’s why we write SwiftUI,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Right? That’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey why. Right? I know it’s not why. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John there’s a little,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a tiny bit more abstracted than say, Apkit, but not really.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, we’re saying the same thing. I was snarking. But hopefully, it won’t be ruinous, as John
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was saying. And I’m really, really excited to see it. And just if you’re new to this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’re new to caring about Apple as much as the three of us do, just remember that, or let me inform
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you that back when iOS 7 landed, the betas were bad. Not only were they tough
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to run, but they didn’t look great. They really went way too far. What’s the little thing on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your desk with the line of balls and the balls bounce back and forth? What’s this thing called? I forget what it’s called,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but you know what I’m thinking of. And they kind of like, they swung into the right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hand side ball and the left hand side ball went, weee, all the way. Is it a Newton’s cradle? Is that what you’re talking about?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Yes, I think that’s it. Thank you. And so anyway, so they way over swung and then
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other pendulum, if you will, came back and it kind of eventually settled and then it wasn’t so bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I mean, whether or not you like the flat look, I do think that where they landed was a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey far better place than where they started because where they started was rough and that’s okay. That’s part of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey how this works. So if you see it and you’re watching the WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey keynote or you’re trying the beta, which I would not recommend, and you say, oh my goodness,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is way too far and way too much, have faith. It’s probably going to be okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all, for the betas, I think this is one that I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to install beta one. First of all, I won’t be traveling during it, which will help.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But also, one thing that also happens a lot with a redesign is developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to figure out over the course of the summer really quickly, first of all, is there anything really broken that we need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to report because Apple only will fix bugs from the first few weeks. And second of all, then we really need to see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how does this design work because we need to make our apps adopt the design.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if it is merely a re-skinning and everything basically works the same way, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one thing. That’s never the case. Basically, we’re never that lucky because, you know, frankly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would be kind of boring. You know, whenever Apple does design tweaks, also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like new behaviors are introduced, new standard widgets or standard interaction
⏹️ ▶️ Marco paradigms are introduced. You know, navigation mechanics, like there’s going to be a lot that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we need to adopt. Beta one for me is like, I need to start learning this new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco design from whatever Apple has done for beta one. So it’s gonna be a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco buggy summer with terrible battery life, but I’ll get through it. Also, what happened
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with iOS 7, I think is instructive. If we have that level of redesign,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which maybe we do, maybe we don’t, maybe it’s somewhere in the middle. But with iOS 7, it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty difficult to adopt the new design while maintaining
⏹️ ▶️ Marco compatibility with iOS 6. It was a lot easier to make your app require iOS 7
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and launch it pretty soon after iOS 7 launched. Obviously we live in a different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco world now, there’s a lot more iPhones, they’re in use for a lot longer. Adoption rates
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably aren’t quite as fast as they were back then. But if this is really a sweeping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco redesign, there’s gonna be a lot of apps that wanna launch as close to September as possible that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco will require iOS apparently 26. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s going to become a thing, like that there will be a big compatibility break if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this happens the way that it’s rumored to happen. A lot of apps will realize, oh no,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we need to adopt the new design in order to stay trendy and relevant to our customers and to avoid one-star
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reviews for not updating, but that’s going to be difficult to do while maintaining the old app. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think there’s gonna be a lot of aggressive requirements where you require iOS 26 right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from the start, or a lot of apps that basically fork themselves in their own code say, All right,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the Iowa’s 18 and below version. And then on launch, like if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in I was 26 launches entirely separate storyboard or whatever or seen that will be like that code base.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we’re gonna see a lot a lot of like hoop jumping by developers and apps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to recognize the fact that like we’re gonna have to basically require this right up front.
⏹️ ▶️ John So to bridge the gap between this and what I think marker was gonna say earlier about his optimism about being able to use apples models,
⏹️ ▶️ John it is interesting that you know they’re doing this redesign. I think when we was originally rumored, one
⏹️ ▶️ John of the things I said about it was like, I’m like, you just said now, Mark, like, oh, geez, Apple, you’re in the middle of
⏹️ ▶️ John this AI thing that you’re not doing well on, that you’re behind is now the time you really
⏹️ ▶️ John want to do some other really big change. And in many respects, like, no, this is not a good time for this. Like you
⏹️ ▶️ John have enough problems already. While this is of your own choosing, you can just delay this for a year or two so you get
⏹️ ▶️ John your feet under you with the AI thing or whatever. But no, this seems like they’re going with it, right? But on the other hand,
⏹️ ▶️ John all of the rumors have been leaning towards, hey, this is not gonna be the year that Apple comes out and says, yeah, you remember all
⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple intelligence stuff we talked about, but we didn’t quite get it out, we’re disappointed in that, but this year we’re coming roaring back
⏹️ ▶️ John and we got all these great Apple intelligence features and more that you’ve never heard of, and we’re gonna ship them and they’re available
⏹️ ▶️ John today and you can try them out yourself. That’s not gonna be this WWDC from the rumors that we’ve heard.
⏹️ ▶️ John So if you’re gonna do like, let’s say in sports analogy, this is not sports specific, Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ John a rebuilding year, But this is kind of a rebuilding year for Apple and AI, according to the
⏹️ ▶️ John rumors. We’ll see if it really is, but again, this is our prediction slash hope show. It seems like it’s gonna be a rebuilding year. It seems
⏹️ ▶️ John like they’re not ready with this blockbuster bucket of amazing AI powered things
⏹️ ▶️ John that finally fulfill the promise of last year’s. No, they don’t, doesn’t seem like they have that.
⏹️ ▶️ John So in the absence of that, it’s nice to have something big to say. So is this kind of like a,
⏹️ ▶️ John during the rebuilding year, here’s something fun, look over there, redesign. Like, you know, like
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe, maybe like in some, I used to think the timing was terrible and they were just distracting themselves, but I’m more and more thinking about
⏹️ ▶️ John it, and I was like, this is actually kind of good timing. If they do a good job on this, it’s something they can put out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I feel like the pressure is on them less to be like, you got to catch up to AI because the whole AI story with them is
⏹️ ▶️ John negative in a totally different way. It’s like, you’re not doing it. So this redesign,
⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s a flashy, it’ll be in people’s faces. Consumers will hear about it probably. Hopefully they’ll like
⏹️ ▶️ John it. So if they do a good job of this, It actually is a good thing to occupy
⏹️ ▶️ John everybody, unfortunately, including Apple, while we wait for them
⏹️ ▶️ John to do that rebuilding. You know, they need to get some new recruits. They need to, I can’t do
⏹️ ▶️ John more sports analogies. They need to get some good picks in the draft. They need to just rebuild their team.
⏹️ ▶️ John They did a bunch of shuffling or whatever, but all that stuff they did is not going to bear fruit this
⏹️ ▶️ John year, it seems like. So I bet they will have something to say about AI. And the rumor is
⏹️ ▶️ John that Marco will finally get his wish and be able to use models that come on the phone
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that he does
⏹️ ▶️ John not have to ship with his app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that I’m very much looking forward to. The rumors are strong enough around that now that it seems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s probably going to happen. Again, it remains to be seen what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that means. What are the limitations? How well do these work? What are we allowed to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do? What is free? what is throttled for either cost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or just phone resources. Like what are we allowed to do in the background? What are we allowed to do in background refresh
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and processing tasks? Like stuff like that. There’s a lot of questions around this that we will have to just find
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. And I think in terms of like how do, what we expect
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Apple and their AI story next week. I think first of all,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there will be no apology, no negativity whatsoever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the delayed and missing features from last year. They will probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dodge mentioning them at all or they’ll mention them only in a positive light. They’ll talk about like, here’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the cool stuff people are doing with image playground and whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like I’m almost placing a bet on that. It’s like, please, Apple, show us what cool things people
⏹️ ▶️ John are doing with your terrible image generator.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, but you know they’re gonna show it off because like that’s-
⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like what they’re gonna say is, we’re still working real hard on these things and we can’t wait to show them to you when they’re ready.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like that’s as close as they’ll come.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I bet there’s gonna be just like papering over, like, you know, we’ve always been at Woolworth these days.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re like, it’s just, what are you talking? This is, these are our great features. Like just no mention
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all about the delay and missing features. I expect that we will see, you know, they’ll talk about a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like kind of incremental progress on the existing Apple intelligence features
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are already out. I don’t expect to see major deep progress on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them, but an incremental year on whatever those have been so far. I expect one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possibility that they might use to kind of try to paper over their AI PR problems.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you recall, a few years back, they started in it for like one or two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years, they started calling machine learning features Siri.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like even things that were not like invoking the Siri assistant, we’re using the Siri as a brand name
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be like, you know, Siri organize your photos or whatever. I think we might see that kind of thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like Apple Intelligence or AI being used as a term
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say look at look at the new things AI is doing and it’s not actually like Apple Intelligence
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or LLM type models or things that it’s actually like just ML features that they are maybe going to brand
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as Apple Intelligence so it sounds like they’re making AI progress if you don’t follow Apple very closely.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m guessing there’s going to be a lot of that kind of like, you know, papering over a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of, you know, let’s polish up these, you know, kind of small things into something that sounds like a big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco overall picture because we don’t really have anything bigger to show yet. That’s what I’m expecting AI wise.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re expecting that segment will be shorter. I’m expecting it will be like when they do that, it will not be as long a segment
⏹️ ▶️ John as the other segments.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they’re going to lean heavily on it, honestly, because it’s like this is what the industry expects
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from them. This is what the investors and the markets and all the pressures are on them to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco deliver some kind of a good AI story. And I don’t think they’re going to have a great AI story yet. And so I think they’re going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to try to shine up the turn that they have as best as they can and just act like, look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at this, all this amazing stuff we’re doing. Only Apple can do all this amazing stuff. We’ve seen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco areas like this before where they’re a little behind in something. And so they kind of just, you know, they, they really,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, put a big grin on and, and talk about how amazing the stuff is that they mostly already had.
⏹️ ▶️ John can see them talking about incremental progress on the features that they’ve shipped fine. If they have the Google deal to announce
⏹️ ▶️ John like Gemini being incorporated, I think that will take a lot of time. And that’ll actually be something that like sort of
⏹️ ▶️ John people are interested in seeing because the chat, GBT integration for all its problems
⏹️ ▶️ John has been a little bit of an escape hatch for people to not not deal with Apple’s progress, but instead to be able to use one of the industry
⏹️ ▶️ John leaders. And Apple’s been hinting at the Gemini deal since
⏹️ ▶️ John like WW, since the day of WWDC 2024. Like even that day they were saying, and you know, it might be
⏹️ ▶️ John looking at other people and talking about it. And it was just rumors for literally an entire year. Oh, we’re getting close to the Gemini
⏹️ ▶️ John deal Apple’s gonna have to. And so anyway, like the rumors continue. Now would be the
⏹️ ▶️ John time if you, if finally you can strike a deal with Google on the Gemini thing, having not just one choice
⏹️ ▶️ John for a thing that Siri delegates do when it can’t do the thing, but two choices would be great because I think that I’ve been playing with the latest
⏹️ ▶️ John Gemini a little bit more heavily now and I think it’s pretty good. So I think Apple should incorporate it and that would
⏹️ ▶️ John also get some heat off them a little bit because it’s kind of like, while we fail to do things
⏹️ ▶️ John ourselves, we should start fulfilling the promise that we were trying
⏹️ ▶️ John to say last time. And it’s like, and for the things that we can’t do, we’ll work with third parties. And it was singular
⏹️ ▶️ John last year, we’ll work with third party. and it was just OpenAI, be great if they had two,
⏹️ ▶️ John because now you’re like, oh, now actually they are doing kind of a platform thing, because there’s this place where a thing can plug in and
⏹️ ▶️ John you can plug in Chats GPT or OpenAI, or maybe you can do them both, or Gemini, or you can do both at the same time.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I think that could absorb a lot of time in that segment, but honestly, I don’t expect their AI segment to,
⏹️ ▶️ John certainly not to be as long as it was last year, because that was like the whole thing. I just,
⏹️ ▶️ John I put it this way, I think they shouldn’t spend a long time dwelling on whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John they have to show for AI. We made this, we made writing tools better in this way. We improved
⏹️ ▶️ John image playground so it doesn’t suck as bad. You know, whatever. Fine. And then, oh, and announcing
⏹️ ▶️ John our deal with Google Gemini and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco move on. What will make that kind of, you know, make or break that is how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does this integration look? You know, the problem with the iOS 18 chat GPT
⏹️ ▶️ Marco integration is not that we need another model to choose from. The problem is the integration is very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited and sucks, and Siri is not good at delegating which requests go to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chat GPT. The problem is, it isn’t that chat GPT is holding back the iPhone, the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not letting chat GPT do enough, and is not, you know, calling upon it enough
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or at the right times. So, if the Gemini deal is just plugging
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in Gemini where chat GPT is now, that’s not enough. Hopefully
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what apple has done is some kind of better and or deeper? Integration that people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can choose from if they want to
⏹️ ▶️ John they may have to do that because of the EU regulations, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Probably yeah, but like that that would be way better like right now You can use the chat GPT
⏹️ ▶️ Marco integration with Siri you know and it’s I mentioned You know I do it like in the car sometimes I can you know ask and I asked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hey you know dingus ask chat GPT this question I know you won’t know the answer to and that’s that’s been occasionally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very good But what’s better when I’m actually using the phone is to just open the Chat GPT
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app because it’s just way better in every possible way because the integration from Apple is so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited and kind of bizarre in certain ways.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that could be an example of the integration, not so much as like a thing that Siri delegates to, but
⏹️ ▶️ John different or better API access for the Gemini app and the Chat GPT app. I’m not sure what
⏹️ ▶️ John form that would take, but maybe some kind of privacy preserving context awareness that Apple was touting for Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John Intelligence that basically like Apple’s whole deal is we have tons of information about you on your phone
⏹️ ▶️ John and we’re going to feed that into our AI thing so it can answer intelligence questions without
⏹️ ▶️ John taking all your private information and chucking it to our servers where we can see it all. Right, that was their whole angle. It would
⏹️ ▶️ John be interesting and really cool if they said, and now we have a way for third-party things like chat GPT
⏹️ ▶️ John and Gemini to do the thing that we failed to do last year, which is have access to all your local information
⏹️ ▶️ John in a privacy-preserving way with these brand new APIs that we control, that we can know that they’re not stealing
⏹️ ▶️ John all your info and whatever. Like, I don’t think they’re gonna do that. That hasn’t even been rumored, but that’s an example of an integration
⏹️ ▶️ John that doesn’t require them to replace Siri with something better. It’s merely like APIs
⏹️ ▶️ John created to make it so the chat GPT app on iOS is really good. It’s better,
⏹️ ▶️ John like maybe not better than it is on Android, but that is well integrated with the OS
⏹️ ▶️ John that it has more access than it currently does. Cause that’s the kind of the problem. It’s the kind of the problem the egg is solving. It’s like, oh, if I launched
⏹️ ▶️ John a chat GPT app and I wanted to do something, I got to like hit the little plus button and here’s a document and here’s this thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John I have to give it all this context first and here’s what you know, it’d be as the memory, make sure you use the memory feature to let it know about
⏹️ ▶️ John you and what kind of app you’re working on and what APIs you use and like all this context that you’re trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John shove into the app so that when you go and ask it a question, it kind of like has a headstart on where you are and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, man, you’re on my phone. You should already know everything about me. Uh, but that is scary from a privacy
⏹️ ▶️ John perspective. So Apple should find a way to deal with that. But then I think, I think this is more wishcasting at
⏹️ ▶️ John this point. We’ll see how that section of the presentation goes. But I really
⏹️ ▶️ John think the big redesign, because remember the redesign, we’ll probably have like a little video
⏹️ ▶️ John about the redesign, but then every single OS, because the rumor is they’re doing all of them. Every single OS will
⏹️ ▶️ John be like, and of course this has the new look. Look at this looks, look at that looks. Like it’s just a time suck, like not in a bad way, but
⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s, I feel like the redesign is gonna absorb a lot of time and a lot of screen space in this thing. So AI gets
⏹️ ▶️ John pushed out a little bit.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the reasons why I like your idea of like making just APIs for the Gemini
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and chat GPT apps to hook into and be better is that I wanna see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the shackles around the iPhone break more often than once a year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like I wanna see progress here. Like the AI consumer market is just exploding.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco These companies are just churning out update after update, massive new product features like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every month or every few weeks. Like it’s, we’re at such an amazing rate of progress
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this industry right now. And for Apple to only be able to update its integration, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco once a year is not good enough. Like they’re gonna just keep falling behind and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco being, you know, more and more disconnected from this entire world of technological progress going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on. So if they make it API based, the apps can update whenever they can, whenever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they feel like it, whenever they can get their app review, but you know, whenever they can feel like it, they can update and keep adding stuff over the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco course of the year without waiting for Apple to move at the glacial pace they issue software updates with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual features. And because at this point, issuing anything about AI, issuing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it once a year is just death in this industry. Like it’s like updating a GPU every 10
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years in a product line. Like that’s not going to work. So hopefully
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have, hopefully they know this. I mean, look, Apple’s full of very smart people with, you know, they’re in the same tech business
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we are. It doesn’t seem that way all the time, but like they’re in the same business. They can look around, they can see, hopefully, hopefully some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them see the writing on the wall here of like, AI is a big deal, we need to really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be in this in a bigger way. And they have an amazing set of platforms
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that people like, for the most part, developing software on. And so they can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco take advantage of it. They can be the platform company. They can enable these apps to operate on their platform
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they just give a little. Give some integration APIs.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just give a little bit and they can be an amazing platform for all this stuff to happen on. But right now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they just seem like they’re getting in the way. So hopefully we see some change in direction there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, that’s the other AI angle I forgot about. The we talked about in the past show, the basically
⏹️ ▶️ John Swift assist, which never appeared on the Anthropic deal, basically like Xcode. There’s usually a section in W2C
⏹️ ▶️ John where they talk about Xcode. Maybe it’s in the State of the Union. Last year, they touted a bunch of features that would help
⏹️ ▶️ John you code better using LLMs that would be integrated into Xcode. The big one of those Swift assist did not ship.
⏹️ ▶️ John lots of in to your point, Marco, in the year since then, boy, have there been a lot of tools and
⏹️ ▶️ John ideas and integration with LM power and Apple has essentially sat that out. I know they have
⏹️ ▶️ John the whatever that one model they have in there for like better completion is fine, but it’s a far cry from what
⏹️ ▶️ John is available at the cutting edge of help me write code with LM based technology.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so that would be another good AI thing that would actually make that exciting and actually pretty longer because
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, they just be going around Look at this, look how amazing this is in Xcode. And let’s, you know, that feels like it’s within their reach.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know they’re associated partnering with Anthropic, but whatever you gotta do, like, you know, it seems like
⏹️ ▶️ John just such a no brainer. And because of their yearly release cycle, like they promised it last year,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I forget how much of it they showed, it never shipped. Maybe it’ll ship this year. Maybe they’ll announce a partnership.
⏹️ ▶️ John But the point is typing in Xcode should have the access to
⏹️ ▶️ John better LLM based code features. It doesn’t have to be like the, you know, cursor, IDE or replet
⏹️ ▶️ John or all those other fans. It doesn’t have to be like that. Like we’re not saying just like, Oh, I just go to Xcode and I talk to it and writes the app for me. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the cutting edge. And there’s a rule for that out there. But we just want like what you showed last year that
⏹️ ▶️ John seems like it should be within your reach. And if it’s not, I hope you partnered with somebody to make that within your reach.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think that would go in the Apple intelligence section of the talk, even though it is, it’s kind of weird. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, really, would they talk about developer tools at W3C? Yeah, sometimes they do.
⏹️ ▶️ John Hard to believe, but sometimes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do. But like, you know, why, why shouldn’t Apple be cutting edge? Like, why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are we not expecting them to like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I know, because
⏹️ ▶️ John they have fell on their face last time or
⏹️ ▶️ John there it’s rebuilding year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I’m saying like, you know, why are we, why are we instantly lowering our expectations? Like, well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we know Apple won’t be the best at this, but we hope they do something like that. I think that should,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that should wake people in Apple up. Like why are we grading on a curve
⏹️ ▶️ John here? Well, we’re lowering our expectations because we don’t think they’re going to have it ready. They
⏹️ ▶️ John do it last year. And it seems they can’t. I’m not saying that they can never do it. I’m saying I don’t expect them to have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, yeah, I don’t either but like I yeah I have I have zero faith in Apple’s AI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco efforts being Remotely competitive with what the rest of the market is doing I think it’s very obvious
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that like Apple’s leaders have decided not to be a leader in AI Again action speak louder than words
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has decided AI is not that important to them. I hope they change their mind I don’t think they decided
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I think they
⏹️ ▶️ John just rearranged their senior leadership around this because they want to do better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like after the entire industry passed them by. But
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they failed, but it’s not because they don’t want to do it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they realized very, very late, maybe they should get off their butts. But anyway, so, okay, let me go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco through a little bit of negativity and then we’ll get back to positivity because I just I want to say expectations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco accordingly. I don’t think there will be any acknowledgement
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the relationship with developers, courts, ongoing lawsuits,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco regulations around the world. I don’t think there will be any acknowledgement of any of that
⏹️ ▶️ John You think that’s negativity? I think that’s just par for the course in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but but like you know what I expect is like you know they will project
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pure confidence they will have some puffy videos showing how amazing the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app store is for customers and how it has enabled all these diverse groups of developers to succeed and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do amazing things and save people’s lives and cure cancer like that’s what we’re going to see we’re going to see a video
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all these happy developers that just have been enabled by Apple’s generosity
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thank God they let us develop on this platform because we are saving children
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with our work on this platform that’s the kind of thing we’re going to see. And the app store is so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco safe and private for our customers. Like we’re not going to see any policy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes. We’re not going to see any major opening up of things that were previously locked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco down. We will see no signs of any kind of change of heart. Like that’s all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. A lot of people like on mass around stuff have been asking like, Oh, do we expect that? Like I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sorry, don’t expect that. Like that’s not going to happen.
⏹️ ▶️ John been rumored either right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John now. Of course not about that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like we will see a bunch of puffy videos about how the way they have been doing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things and have always been doing things is awesome and look at how great it’s working for all these people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s going to be marketing to the world and to regulators and courts saying look at how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great the App Store is like so don’t expect any changes on that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What this event will be is showing off what Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is doing in the tracks they were already on. You know, this is not going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be, you know, giving developers everything they want with policies. This is going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco giving us a really cool, hopefully, UI redesign for the platforms that will set the tone of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how we do the rest of our work this summer, fall, and probably winter. This This will be, hopefully, those on-device
⏹️ ▶️ Marco AI model APIs. It will be, hopefully, a cool Xcode AI integration, as we were just saying.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m hoping to see what tends to make the most day-to-day life improvements for developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the less flashy but maybe more important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco progress that happens every year. Stuff like SwiftUI having certain limitations lifted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or having new capabilities or cool…
⏹️ ▶️ John text editor in SwiftUI.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, having more, you know, maybe like a Swift UI web view has been rumored for a while, like, you know, more like basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more expansion and maturation of Swift UI. Also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more async APIs from Apple’s APIs, like, you know, so much of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco UI kit and foundation and, you know, all these APIs that have been built over time, so much of those are not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite playing nicely with modern Swift in a couple of ways. There’s, you know, sendable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco conformance, all like the Swift 6 stuff. There’s, you know, especially async APIs. Async APIs make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so many types of things so much easier to write these days. And nothing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shows off how great async is than when you run into something that’s not async that you have to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco convert in or work around with some kind of callback or delegate. And it’s cumbersome
⏹️ ▶️ John And the callback’s not main thread and you can’t make it main thread.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John They need to continue to annotate and update their APIs. Just to give an even
⏹️ ▶️ John more boring example that I think has come up in your past conversations about Overcast, like the multiple selection support
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco God, please. So
⏹️ ▶️ John boring. It’s so boring. I’m like, no one’s going to it’s going to be in one obscure. It’s not going to be in the keynote, probably. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be on a bento box thing, but it’s like it
⏹️ ▶️ John one thing like it’s one of the beautiful things about WWDC is you watch some random obscure session
⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere and they get to a slide. You’re like, oh, my God, I wanted that for five years. And it will make a material
⏹️ ▶️ John difference to your app in a in a way that is that only you as the developer need to know about.
⏹️ ▶️ John But you’re like, yes, finally. And users get the benefit. They don’t know that it’s because of this one session
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. They just know, oh, they finally added that feature. Why did they add it? Because it wasn’t part of the framework before, and now it is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. That’s what I look forward to every year. Nowadays, it’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco little bit more complicated because of the weird way modifiers were added to SwiftUI. But I used to love
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going through the API diffs on that first day and just seeing, oh my god, they added this method to UITableView.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, thank god. Stuff like that, just finding out all those little things. oh, this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one little paper cut that I’ve had because of some limitation in the API, that’s now lifted. Or, oh, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a cool new method, what does that do? And you look into it, oh, I could really use that in my app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s the kind of stuff that I really benefit from every single day for the whole year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco When you have some kind of flashy new API, that can be great,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or you might not have a use for it. But stuff like making more of the foundation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco APIs, making more of them async and making them sent making their callback sendable and all this stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like there’s so much stuff like that that we run into every day as developers and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by far my favorite part of the new software releases every year is that kind of stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s usually that kind of stuff that makes me want to require the new OS for my app at some point in the future I was like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I run into something like oh man this one paper cut ooh fiction iOS 18 with this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new modifier okay I’m requiring iOS 18 now Like there’s also like there’s all sorts of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff like that. So you know in other forms other versions or other areas of the API
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I expect to see some improvements here and there. You know I expect like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re probably going to keep pushing app intense pretty heavily because that’s how the Apple intelligence
⏹️ ▶️ Marco features that were delayed and might come soon that’s how they interact with your app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s pretty important. Hopefully like maybe stuff like the widget system you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gets a few little improvements here and there. They’re using widgets in so many ways now. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, watch complications. Those are just widgets now. Live activities, those are basically live widgets.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s, you know, the standby mode, that’s widgets. What looks to be standby widgets showing up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in CarPlay Ultra, that is also apparent, looks like just widgets to me. CarPlay itself,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, I spent all morning this morning trying to work around a CarPlay animation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bug that’s just in Apple’s frameworks and CarPlay, like developers have very little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ability to do much of anything in CarPlay. Like it’s a very limited API for various like safety and regulatory reasons for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s displayed in cars. And so there’s only so much you can really do. So when you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco run into like an animation bug in Apple’s frameworks, like, well, I kind of can’t work around this one,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but there are rumored that the new redesigns are also being applied to CarPlay.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, am I still gonna be using this ancient API that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m using to write CarPlay apps? Maybe there will be some kind of version of SwiftUI for CarPlay, obviously with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a limited set of what you can do, but I kind of felt when I was writing all my CarPlay code over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the last couple weeks, I’m like, should I really be doing this right now? Maybe they’re about to change all this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That kind of stuff, I look forward to that kind of stuff because whatever the company does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with its politics and its relationship with developers, that’s its own thing off to the side. I try to keep off to the side for most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of my life because I don’t want to keep focusing too much on stuff I can’t control. What I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get out of bed for is, well, first of all, my old dog is not sleeping in as well anymore as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he used to. But also, I like making great software. And Apple tends
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to deliver a lot of good improvements every year that are less flashy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the big headlining features usually, but that enable me to make better software or that enable my software
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be a little bit nicer or do a few more things than I could do before or make my life
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit easier as the author of that software. That’s the kind of stuff I’m looking forward to most. And that stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is usually so minor, it doesn’t even appear on the BentoBox slides. But it usually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like, oh, thank God they made this one function async or whatever. It’s that kind of stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Word cloud slides is really what they usually go with.
⏹️ ▶️ John seems like to be more for hardware. Word clouds is like for APIs in the back. You’ll see multiple selections and lists
⏹️ ▶️ John in SwiftUI. Maybe that’s too wordy, but anyway, we keep an eagle eye out for that. And speaking
⏹️ ▶️ John of looking forward to the things that time was, it doesn’t seem that long ago where one of the
⏹️ ▶️ John most important rumors slash potentially leak
⏹️ ▶️ John things that would happen before WWDC was setting expectations for hardware announcements.
⏹️ ▶️ John So much so that when when it was a year where it was like somehow would be made clear by
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple through a strategic leak to The Wall Street Journal or something that you shouldn’t expect any hardware just so people didn’t get disappointed.
⏹️ ▶️ John But these days, it seemed like the expectation of any hardware WWC is
⏹️ ▶️ John so remote that Apple doesn’t even need to set the expectation there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be because that’s the default now. WC, that’s not a hardware announcement event. There’s not going
⏹️ ▶️ John to be any hardware. I haven’t seen any hardware rumors, even people saying like, what about the home part with the screen thing? And I go, no,
⏹️ ▶️ John probably not. Despite that, the fact that there is not a strong,
⏹️ ▶️ John like somewhat plausibly leaked by Apple to some important publication
⏹️ ▶️ John message that says, don’t expect any hardware to be received. This is going to be all software. Despite the fact that doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John exist, I’m allowed to be out here thinking, you know, maybe it’ll be a hardware announcement.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco they didn’t say
⏹️ ▶️ John definitively that there wouldn’t. It’s very unlikely, but you know what I’m thinking. I’m thinking,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you updated the Mac studio with the M3 Ultra.
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re thinking Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey updated the Mac Studio
⏹️ ▶️ John with the M3 Ultra. It’s like, look, if you’re gonna update the Mac Pro with the M3 Ultra, God knows
⏹️ ▶️ John why you didn’t do it when the studio was done, but whatever, the Mac Pro moves in mysterious ways. Just get the disappointment
⏹️ ▶️ John over with and say, hey, guess what? It’s the Mac Pro, and it’s a Mac Studio in a giant box.
⏹️ ▶️ John Just do it and just be like, let’s rip off the Band-Aid and so I can set my sights on next year. Because that would let me know,
⏹️ ▶️ John hey, this year, if you’re gonna buy a new Mac, it’s not gonna be a Mac Pro. Like, just do that for me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Or, you know, if you have like an M4 Ultra or an M5, something like, whatever, you know, super
⏹️ ▶️ John secret thing, nobody cares about it, it didn’t leak because nobody cares about the Mac Pro. Like, this is the great thing about the Mac Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s so obscure that like, it’s plausible that it wouldn’t leak, because who the hell cares?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I care. So anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro, believe, like, I don’t expect it. No one expects anything. Have you heard anybody expecting
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware W2C? No one expects anything. M5 isn’t ready, it’s going to come in the iPad Pro. Like the whole 2025 hardware
⏹️ ▶️ John rumors, they’re all out there for the year. They’re all lined up. You can go read about them, right? But
⏹️ ▶️ John how would they even have time with the redesign stuff and all of those stuff? There’s certainly not gonna be any hardware, but you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John throw me a Mac Pro shaped bone or a Mac Pro shaped dagger in the form of an M3 Ultra Mac Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John but whatever, do something with it other than canceling the product publicly. Wow.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, so you got what you’re looking forward to. Like I’m, I can’t, I have to be honest. I’m going to be sitting
⏹️ ▶️ John there going, come on, one in a million odds for Mac Pro, anything, come on, come on. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John going to be, I can’t help myself. That’s what I’m going to be thinking. I’m not predicting it. I’m just, I’m just, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m just out there hoping.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t, I don’t think there’s going to be any hardware. I really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John don’t. I can’t, I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey decide if it would be more funny if they canceled the Mac Pro or if they just said,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, here’s a new rev with the M3 Ultra, have fun with that. Um, it, it, it would be,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s going to be a disaster being around you for months if either of those things
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John happen. At least
⏹️ ▶️ John that will be clarifying. You know, it’s like, well, now I know, now I know what’s up. I just, you know, go spec out a back
⏹️ ▶️ John studio and see what, like, you know what I mean? Like I just, I’d like to have some kind of. I not
⏹️ ▶️ John knowing, like just being like, could be Mac, bro. There’s some vague rumors about it. Blah, blah, blah. Like, I hate that. I just,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, I have a question for you. You, you said earlier, John, in so many words, why are they doing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this big redesign And I think an, an, a justification
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for that could be that they’re trying to distract from the AI disaster of, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I said. I agree. I’m trying to move on from that and posit a different answer. I’m trying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to move on from this by restating it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was trying to recap. It was a while ago. Good grief you two. I just let you two pop off for so long, which was great.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And now you’re all on my case. All right. So here we go. Um, what I was wondering is, do you think,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and there’s obviously no way to obviously no way to know right now, but do you think that this is setting up for future hardware? Like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is this redesigns for some reason setting up for some sort of future hardware, especially if we get the,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the alleged, uh, iPad, like more robust windowing situation,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that setting up for the foldable phone? Or are we in a situation like many years ago
⏹️ ▶️ Casey now, I forget what year it was where all the phones were the exact same size, but they They were like, hey,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you should be able to support other sizes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Really. All right. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, I have one crazy idea that you, I think we can do it on the current hardware. I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they will do it. I have one crazy idea. What if, so,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we, you know, they built with Vision Pro. They built this entire engine to like recognize the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco light in the room and have it affect all the stuff in the UI. What
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they use the front camera on the iPhone to figure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out what direction light sources are coming from among what it can see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and actually add specular highlights to the glass in the UI based on the lighting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the room and how you move the phone around?
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s kind of like when I was talking about translucency where they use the back camera to allow like the desk underneath it
⏹️ ▶️ John to translucently show through the UI. Yeah, I’ll say the same thing to your crazy idea as
⏹️ ▶️ John I did to my own crazy idea back then. Battery killer, sorry.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, see, that’s the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only problem. You have to leave the camera on and be processing that image the whole
⏹️ ▶️ John or at least for your thing, you just have to glance at the camera every once in a while. They could do it. Part of the rumor
⏹️ ▶️ John is that there actually will be glints, but any kind of glints like that across the UI
⏹️ ▶️ John that try to even just have a fake light direction, let alone a real one, I’m not sure how far they’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John go in that direction because that’s problematic to implement in a bunch of ways, even ignoring
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole camera angle. But I hope they do in either one of those. I don’t want them to show through the, I
⏹️ ▶️ John said this the whole day, I’m like, it’s like a transparent phone. Instead of a wallpaper, what you see is what’s actually underneath
⏹️ ▶️ John your phone. It’ll see right through your hand. And it’s a, yeah, I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t like, please don’t do that, Apple. Not the least of which because it will kill your battery. But,
⏹️ ▶️ John and for Casey’s question about reflecting the hardware, Like it just kind of takes me back to the,
⏹️ ▶️ John the Notch to MacBook year when they made the menu bar taller. We’re like, oh, they’re preparing Mac OS for
⏹️ ▶️ John touch when really they were just preparing it to have a taller menu bar because of the notch and the laptops. You know,
⏹️ ▶️ John you should add touch to Mac OS eventually. And if you’re just redesigning everything now, now would be a good time to
⏹️ ▶️ John set it up for touch. Not that there’s any particular rumors about touch-based Macs or anything, but like you’re in
⏹️ ▶️ John there anyway. You already made the menu bar real big. I don’t know. Like it just, this may be another
⏹️ ▶️ John one of those things that you’ll need a leadership change to make happen, only it’s not so important that I care about it
⏹️ ▶️ John that much, but test-based Macs will require, not require, but will benefit from
⏹️ ▶️ John some changes to the macOS UI. And so that is one thing I’ll be looking for. I’m glad you brought that up because like,
⏹️ ▶️ John in the redesign, everyone will be kind of squinting at it and saying, huh, why did they choose to do this thing? I mean, you
⏹️ ▶️ John could squint at like, like when the vertical dialogues, one of the consequences of portrait orientation dialogues
⏹️ ▶️ John on macOS is that the buttons got way bigger. Like when they become full width and they stack vertically, those
⏹️ ▶️ John are huge. And it’s like, wow, that’s a much easier touch target than the other button was. Does that mean touch is coming to Mac OS?
⏹️ ▶️ John And the answer was no,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey not now anyway. But
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it is nice prep for it. Same thing with the bigger menu bar. So I’ll keep
⏹️ ▶️ John an eye out for that.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I thought we were gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John say, also Casey is like, you remember when, you know, Aqua came out, the original Aqua, well, you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John remember, but original Aqua had pinstripes, which are an homage to the stripes in the classic Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John OS windows, right? but also the hardware, like the iMac, had those same pinstripes.
⏹️ ▶️ John Do you remember when there was like a synergy between how the OS looked, how Mac OS X looked, and how the iMac looked?
⏹️ ▶️ John and we just did that. Remember thinking about the patent for all the clear glass Mac Pro and everything?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that’s what they’re doing. I don’t think they should do that. I think it’s a bad idea, but it did
⏹️ ▶️ John remind me of that. Like, there’s a synergy. It’s like this OS is preparing for hardware. So the OS is frosted
⏹️ ▶️ John glass, and guess what? The iPhone 20 is also a frosted glass front and back. I don’t think they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna do that, but that would be another synergy there. But yeah, it is something to be looking at, like
⏹️ ▶️ John with the size classes, looking at future, we already know the folding phone’s coming. I don’t think they need to do anything to iOS to make
⏹️ ▶️ John it expand to folding phone proportions, but it will be interesting to look in the new APIs
⏹️ ▶️ John and like the symbols they forget to strip out to see if you can find ones that are referencing the alleged
⏹️ ▶️ John in development Apple folding phone, because even though I think most iOS apps will be able to handle it
⏹️ ▶️ John without too much change because they’re used to changing size a lot now. And they also have the iPad code path for people
⏹️ ▶️ John who really want to take advantage of it. Surely there will also be new APIs and new
⏹️ ▶️ John things to detect whether you’re in that mode to make your app Apple folding phone
⏹️ ▶️ John savvy next year’s WWDC or whatever, or the year after that. All right, anything
⏹️ ▶️ John else? Any wild cards, anything that’s not rumored you would like to see that you think is plausible?
⏹️ ▶️ John Because I always think they have the plausible model. But there’s plenty of things we’d like to see, but they’re not freaking happen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love that multi-selection and lists. Especially because the callback is already
⏹️ ▶️ Marco supporting multiple selections. Like the modifier with the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco onDrop or onMove or whatever, it already gives you an index set. Like it already
⏹️ ▶️ Marco supports multiple selections, just the UI just doesn’t. Like, oh my God,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco please just make that start working.
⏹️ ▶️ John Hey, at least you get to use lists. In Switch Class, I would love to have used lists because the list supports reordering automatically,
⏹️ ▶️ John but no, because Switch OS goes back to like 10.12 and Switch UI and
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS is way behind where it still is, way behind where it is on iOS. I had to implement all that myself and I
⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t do a good job. So be thankful you have what you have.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thank you to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Masterclass, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Factor. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, a weekly bonus topic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only for members. You can hear it every week plus all the other member exclusive content we’ve released, like a bunch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of specials and everything, by joining this week on Overtime, we’ve been talking about Sky,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a new AI app for macOS from the creators of Shortcuts. So this is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty cool, I think. So we’re gonna be talking about that in Overtime. Join us, atp.fm slash join
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to hear that and everything else. Thank you so much, we’ll talk to you next week.
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and
⏹️ ▶️ John Casey wouldn’t let him Cause it was accidental, oh
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental And you can find the show
⏹️ ▶️ John notes at atp.fm And if you’re into
⏹️ ▶️ John Mastodon, you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to Accidental,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco check podcast so long
Apple pulls out of The Talk Show
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I feel like we should talk about the drama of the last week
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the Why not? on the 29th of May which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was this past Thursday as we record there was a very brief post on daring fireball
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was brief enough that I will read the prose portion of it The title is the talk show live from WB DC 2025 Tuesday,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey June 10 You know same location where you Steve’s same showtime, etc, etc
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And John Gruber wrote, ever since I started doing these live shows from WWDC, I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kept the guests secret until showtime. I’m still doing that this year, but in recent years, the guests
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have seemed a bit predictable. Senior executives from Apple. This year, I again extended my usual invitation to Apple, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the first time since 2015, they declined. I think this will make a fast for a fascinating
⏹️ ▶️ Casey show, but I want to set everyone’s expectations accordingly. I’m invigorated by this. See you at the show. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hope. I hope. Well, uh, it’s hard.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s hard to think of this. It’s hard for me to think of this as a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey good look for Apple. I think it’s in a lot of ways, a good look for John, but it’s,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s hard for me to see how this is a good look for Apple. And it’s hard, you know, as, as, as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a person, as a human being, it’s hard for me not to assume that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re just grumpy with the community right now. And, And I don’t know what to make of this, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, you had some thoughts. You had enough thoughts that, miracle of miracles, you actually did this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing. You posted to your blog. I don’t even know what to do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John this happened. All
⏹️ ▶️ John the posting I was doing, Marco was like, I want to do that too. Right. That’s what it was. You were at under one per year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. And especially anything that was not about Overcast was even less often.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a great, great post. It really was. Since I’m blowing smoke up your butt, I re-read
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the post that you had linked to, your own post, live with Phil from June of 2015,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which was also great and had some really great photography as well. But both of these posts I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Casey were excellent. But do you want to talk through what you wrote a couple of days ago now?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, um, you know, I had a lot of mixed feelings about this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s hard not to assume a fairly cynical outcome here,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that like Like John Gruber published a pretty scathing critique
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Apple’s handling of the Apple Intelligence debut last fall
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the features they didn’t ship and the kind of vaporware demos and promises they made, which was very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unlike them. And I think, you know, rereading his Something is Rotten in the State of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cupertino post, like I don’t see anything in that that was unfair
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or untrue. You know, Apple screwed up pretty badly and he called him out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it. And it’s hard, you know, it was definitely the most critical
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he has been of Apple in a long time. And so it’s hard not to draw a line between
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that and say, oh, he publishes that. It lands like it’s a bombshell when it lands.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then a short time later, Apple doesn’t want to go on stage with him. Like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possible. They could have other reasons. You know, they’re in the midst of all of these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco court cases and disputes with regulators around the world and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, they’re in, they’re at war with everybody, basically. And so,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would be hard to get through an interview like that, if anybody’s senior at Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco without at least some difficult questions. Like it would be weird if there weren’t questions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about some of these things in an interview context. And so maybe Apple just decided they don’t want to face those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco questions. Now Gruber was a pro. He would never ask something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they wouldn’t be likely to answer. Like you know, if you, when you’re, when you’re doing some kind of interview in this context
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you have some Apple people or an Apple person that you’re interviewing, you know, like you’re not going to ask them like, Hey, what’s the next
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhone look like? Or whatever, you know, they’re, they’re not going to tell you that kind of stuff. You know, certain things that like certain questions,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you, you kind of have to ask obliquely at certain topics because you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that if you ask head on, they won’t really be able to respond or they won’t give
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you a useful response and everybody’s time would just be wasted. And John Gruber is really good at navigating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those politics. I’m not worried that he would not be able to navigate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the difficulty of interviewing Apple at this time. It seems like Apple just didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to. And, you You know, when I read back to, you know, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also read back what I wrote 10 years ago when Phil came on. What a moment
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah. Like that was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco incredible. And not only because Phil called me out from the stage, but partly because of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. It was such a great moment. And it started this 10
⏹️ ▶️ Marco year run of Apple, you know, giving executives,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, to Gruber to interview on stage for an hour every year. And it really humanized
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them, and it gave amazing back of the stage commentary
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of here’s why we’re doing some of the things we’re doing, and here’s some more detail.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of my favorite dynamics that always took place there, or that frequently took place there, was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you get Craig Federighi up there, and usually he was not, I don’t think he was ever there by himself. He
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was always there either with Phil, or later with Greg Joswiak, or other people, but like he was, so you get Federighi
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up there and Federighi is a nerd’s nerd. Like you could always tell, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is not somebody who is just like, he didn’t rise through the ranks of just being a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco manager, he’s an engineer. Like he’s deep in it, he knows his stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco He is a programmer, he knows the tech angles. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you get him on stage and he acts like any nerd acts. He kind of looks down in his
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lap for a while until you activate his nerd energy by asking a nerdy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco question. Then he lights up and gives you an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enthusiastic, honest, but still PR safe answer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to what you asked that always shows in, you know, with care. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he was never like, you know, leaking secrets, but always kind of shows with like a little bit of seasoning
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like, here’s a little bit extra for you. Here’s something you didn’t know yet about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how we do this. Here’s a neat little trick of what we’re doing that we didn’t announce in the keynote because it didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fit or it wasn’t the right audience or whatever. Here’s a little technical detail or here’s why this was hard or here’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of the challenges we face. It was so humanizing and it was such a gift
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to our community of enthusiasts and fans and nerds and developers.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And nothing bad ever came from those. There was, like every time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would go the next day and look on MacRumors or whatever, or the New York Times, or Wall
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Street Journal, and see, was there any press about this at all? And there almost never was. Maybe there’d be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one article like a MacRumor saying, hey, this thing happened, here’s the link where you can watch it on YouTube, or whatever. But there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was never any bad press from it. There was usually only a small amount of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good press, and it was therefore kind of just like, here’s a nice thing Apple does for the community,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and for the nerds who care about some of these details, here’s some answers, here’s a fun thing to watch,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have a more human connection. The keynotes and the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire content of modern WWDC is severely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lacking in human connection to the developers. Because as Apple has gotten bigger, these things have gotten more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco corporate, the keynote videos have had all humanity stripped out of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There is none left. In almost any Apple presentation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, that’s pretty much all of it. we’re getting all these like produced, sanitized,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like polished videos that might as well be AI generated.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everyone is so on rails, they’re so scripted, they’re so tight,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there is zero humanity in those videos. Except for the parts where they show all the developers who
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cure cancer. But like the actual Apple people, when they speak about their products and whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there is just no humanity left. And so I feel like this was a rare outlet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see some of that, to get some of that, because these are all humans. These are, they’re,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, they’re good people trying to do good things, you know? And it’s good to see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. For them to stop doing this, I could see maybe a calculation,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe they saw what I was saying a minute ago of like, well, it never generated that much press. Maybe they saw
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that as like, well, it’s not worth it. But I think it was worth
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, because one of the best compliments that I’ve ever gotten, and I think the two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of you have heard this as well, is that we’ve heard before that even though
⏹️ ▶️ Marco our show doesn’t have the biggest numbers in the world, we’re not Joe Rogan
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or anything close, what we’ve heard though is that it isn’t how many people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco listen, it’s who listens. That we have a really good audience, we have a really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco relevant audience, we have an audience that maybe we are more influential or we reach influential
⏹️ ▶️ Marco places more so than average. And that’s an amazing compliment, it’s an amazing place to be. We’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been told that over the years a few times and it seems, not to toot our own horns, it seems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco correct based on what we have been able to pick up from our very little information that we have.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think the talk show, first of all, serves a very similar audience, probably a bigger one. But second
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all, I think that the value of the execs doing that every year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not so much that they’re not reaching as many people as like some YouTuber. It’s who they’re reaching.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that has a lot of value and it’s I’m very disappointed that that era has come
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to an end for whatever reason. Whether it’s a good reason,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t quite know what that would be, or whether it’s a cynical reason like they’re mad at Gruber
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for something as wrong as Cupertino. I don’t think this was a wise choice
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by Apple. I think they have… I think they’re ending something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that didn’t need to end, that had value that maybe they are not accounting for.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’m sad to see it go. And we’ll see what they replace it with. What I suspect,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly, based on how trends have been going, I suspect we are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not gonna see anything where Apple’s being asked like kind of you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know arbitrary free-form questions by people who are not like really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco soft interviews like what they did last year they had this weird iJustine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of fake talk show that they hosted on campus it was it was like the Samsung
⏹️ ▶️ Marco talk show like it was like let’s let’s copy the talk no offense to iJustine I like her other work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but like it was like it looked so much like uncomfortably like the talk show.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was really weird. And it was Apple hosted on Apple’s campus, and it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically I, Justine, being John Gruber, but like with Apple execs on stage before the real talk
⏹️ ▶️ Marco show. And it was kind of softball. Like there was like no…
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was basically like the interview equivalent of like, hey, everything you just did in the keynote,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tell me more about that. And then the you know the interviewees in the Apple execs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well as a matter of fact we took privacy very seriously like it was just It was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was almost as stripped of humanity as their keynote videos are So there really wasn’t any any real
⏹️ ▶️ Marco value to that like it didn’t it didn’t give any additional Insight into the people and how they made
⏹️ ▶️ Marco these decisions and cool stuff We didn’t know about like like we got from the talk show it didn’t have any
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that It had none of the personality And again,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t blame my just team for this. I it seemed like it was really the format and the situation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were responsible for that. Not the not the interviewer in particular, but also like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John Gruber’s a good interviewer and like a really good interviewer and we see that in how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he’s handled these situations. We see like the people at Apple, you know, again, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t ask them really, really, you know, direct hard questions. they won’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco answer them. So you kind of have to dance around, you kind of have to work on implication, you kind of have to like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, let Craig kind of smile at you and not answer the question and everybody in the audience laughs and everyone kind of knows what he’s saying. Like, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of have to allow for a lot of that, you know? And I, what I hope Apple does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is reconsider this and, and, you know, get back next year. I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they will. I think, I think this is over for good. I think what we will see instead is a whole bunch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of kind of like softball, you know, quick hits on YouTubers and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s probably going to be it. And it’s going to be nothing interesting. There’s going to be, you know, nothing will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really be said that wasn’t already said in the keynote. We will get no meaningful insights
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or it’ll be like little little PR hand selected anecdotes. Well, actually, yes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here is how we thought about customer satisfaction. Like it’s going to be, I think, really bland.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s a shame because Gruber’s talk shows were never bland and they were very humanizing and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going to miss them.
⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like this year, like it’s actually one of the most important years
⏹️ ▶️ John in a long time for Apple to speak to its developers at its developer
⏹️ ▶️ John conference. I know that sounds dumb, like isn’t that what they always do? But like really speak to
⏹️ ▶️ John the developers like and this is not, I’m not saying they’re going to say they change nothing like they’re not changing anything, no policy
⏹️ ▶️ John is changing. This is not a reconciliation. This is not a new deal for developers. Like it’s none of that. It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re changing absolutely nothing. It’s like that’s our baseline assumption. Right. Even so.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the most important time for a PR perspective, for Apple to get a chance to
⏹️ ▶️ John talk to developers, quote unquote, directly to make their case for whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John their case is. This is why we’re doing what we’re doing. Like, again, you don’t have to change a single thing. Nothing changes.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re just like when there is dissatisfaction, And one of the ways you can mitigate that
⏹️ ▶️ John is let’s talk about it. Let’s communicate. Let’s, let’s make you feel like we see you and recognize
⏹️ ▶️ John you and understand your concerns. Like, again, we’re not announcing anything or whatever, but like, let’s talk about it.
⏹️ ▶️ John The talk show was one of the places where that took place. It was essentially giving
⏹️ ▶️ John the, the most enthusiastic of your developers access to your executives by proxy, by
⏹️ ▶️ John having quote, one of them up on stage, talking to the people about some of the things that you would talk
⏹️ ▶️ John about if you were on stage with them. And it’s a very narrow audience. It is very niche.
⏹️ ▶️ John It is literally an audience of people who would go to WWDC in person, which was
⏹️ ▶️ John a few thousand people, right? As opposed to the billions that have Apple’s products.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s one of the reasons the iJustine thing was so ill-considered because like, iJustine’s audience is a mass
⏹️ ▶️ John audience. But she did it on stage in front of attendees at WWDC.
⏹️ ▶️ John And not just attendees, press attendees at WWDC. And it’s like, well, that is like an audience
⏹️ ▶️ John mismatch a little bit. Like her audience is millions and millions of regular people. Millions
⏹️ ▶️ John and millions of regular people are never gonna watch her talk to a bunch of Apple executives
⏹️ ▶️ John whose names they don’t know. We know their names and what they’re doing and what their products are or whatever. Like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a mismatch. So I don’t fault her for that, but like, it’s the, you know, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the wrong person to pick to talk and like, if they wanna have her interview them, by all means do it. She’ll interview them
⏹️ ▶️ John and put it on her channel and show it to millions of people. That’s great. But why do we have to be there sitting in a theater watching
⏹️ ▶️ John it happen? Because that’s not what we want to see. We want to see John Gruber asking questions because we are this weird little narrow slice
⏹️ ▶️ John of people. So choosing this year to not go on John
⏹️ ▶️ John Gruber’s show and have him ask you questions can go one of the two ways. One, they’re mad at
⏹️ ▶️ John John Gruber or whatever. They didn’t want to do it, but they plan to do that same thing just
⏹️ ▶️ John with somebody else. That is an unfortunate reality of dealing with companies and access and blah,
⏹️ ▶️ John blah, blah, then maybe, you know, or not even like maybe he was not even maybe they just told John was like, Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re going a different direction this year. And they just pick a different person. Like you can’t get mad about that. It’s like, well, he had it for 10
⏹️ ▶️ John years, maybe someone will give someone else a chance. But you would hope is that like, that they would still feel like,
⏹️ ▶️ John all right, we’re gonna we’re gonna talk to MKBHD. We’re gonna talk to CNBC, we’re gonna talk to the guy from USA Today, we’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John talk to Wall Street Journal, the New York Times felt like they got their list of like, here, these executives, you know, these people, and some are
⏹️ ▶️ John way down the list is oh, yeah, and we’ll send some people to talk to these super nerds who actually come to WRC. And historically,
⏹️ ▶️ John they had done that by letting john Grimber ask them questions for the past 10 years. But maybe like, Oh, instead of john
⏹️ ▶️ John this year, we’re gonna go with somebody else or whatever. That is bad for john. And it’s bad for
⏹️ ▶️ John us because we like john. But if they still do that, they still feel the need like we need to talk
⏹️ ▶️ John directly to our most hardcore developers and to do all the stuff that you just said, Marco to humanize the people behind
⏹️ ▶️ John the decisions and the things and like, maybe there’s someone else who fills that role that someone else cannot
⏹️ ▶️ John be like MKBHD. His he talks to a mass audience of people who are not
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple developers. Like that’s not his audience. You’re already talking to him to reach his people, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John like the vast majority of customers in the world who buy your products. You’re talking to
⏹️ ▶️ John the Wall Street Journal. You talk to New York Times. They all have their audiences. And I get that the talk show audience is
⏹️ ▶️ John the tiniest slice of a tiny little pie of this little obscure corner or whatever. But I think the reason
⏹️ ▶️ John they did it for 10 years is like you were saying about our show, it’s like, okay, so the audience may be tiny, but it is
⏹️ ▶️ John actually a disproportionately important audience to you. I would say it’s, again, it’s the audience of people who
⏹️ ▶️ John show up at WWDC. You’re, not only just your developers, because they have millions of developers,
⏹️ ▶️ John but the developers who care so much that they’re gonna fly from wherever they are in the world to California
⏹️ ▶️ John to, at this point, see you play a video that everyone else can see at the same time, right? Those are pretty hardcore people.
⏹️ ▶️ John And sometimes talking to your most hardcore base, especially when that base
⏹️ ▶️ John has some dissatisfaction with you, is an important thing to do. And so if they’re not gonna do it through
⏹️ ▶️ John John, I really hope they’re just not gonna do it, period. Because of all the audience
⏹️ ▶️ John in the world that like, as it relates to Apple, I think that tiny slice is the most
⏹️ ▶️ John dissatisfied right now. Yeah, maybe people are mad about the iOS 18 photos app, but they’ll get over it, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Like in general, most people like Apple, like their products, millions of millions of customers like them. Which group
⏹️ ▶️ John is the most dissatisfied? It’s this narrow slice of their most enthusiastic developers.
⏹️ ▶️ John And like when they get dissatisfied, I would think that if I worked in PR on
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, I’d be like, this is why you pay me. This is my job. I’m gonna go out there and I’m gonna smooth this over. I’m gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John convince them that all the things that they’re grumpy about aren’t actually as bad as they are. And we hear like, again, no policy changes,
⏹️ ▶️ John no like new deal for developers. Your job is to go out there and sell what you’re doing. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John oh, people are mad, but I’m going to explain it in a way that makes them less mad.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it boggles my mind that they would just choose, actually this year of all years, we’re just not going to talk to
⏹️ ▶️ John those people at all, because that is not going to make the relationship better at all. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ John You have to talk to them. You don’t have to talk to them at John Gruber. Fine. Find somebody else. But the somebody else
⏹️ ▶️ John should be a John Gruber-ish person. Right. Somebody who speaks to
⏹️ ▶️ John the people who are at the talk show live are an even narrower subset of the people who are at WWDC,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is a very narrow subset of all the developers, you know, those people, and I’m not saying those are the most important
⏹️ ▶️ John people, like, obviously, it’s way more important to talk to the New York Times, like I get it, right. But they’ve been doing it
⏹️ ▶️ John for 10 years, it just is, I cannot believe that they would say, we’re just not going to do
⏹️ ▶️ John that at all anymore. And so I really hope that I mean, it’s bad for john, if they just swap him out for somebody
⏹️ ▶️ John else, I really hope they do talk to somebody who fills that role. And because of the circle of
⏹️ ▶️ John we’d travel and we’d flatter ourselves and say, well, if they do talk to someone like that, wouldn’t we know who it is? Because we kind of know all the people
⏹️ ▶️ John in those circles. But you know, maybe not. Like not every YouTuber is MKBHD
⏹️ ▶️ John or iJustine with like millions and millions of regular people watching. There are YouTubers that are more narrowly
⏹️ ▶️ John focused on tech enthusiasts and developers. So maybe we’ll pick one of them and have them ask questions.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s not even to say that, you know, that MKBHD or iJustine or any of those people
⏹️ ▶️ John couldn’t ask more pointed and technical questions. they just tend to focus their content
⏹️ ▶️ John on a broader audience, which is wise when you have such a big audience. You know, if they did, oh, you get 10 minutes
⏹️ ▶️ John with Tim Cook and they talk about some really obscure technical thing that millions of people watch and go, why the heck did he ask those questions? I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know what he was talking about. But anyway, I hope, I don’t know anything about what is actually
⏹️ ▶️ John happening, but I hope we see some of those same Apple executives that we normally see
⏹️ ▶️ John talking to somebody who is not an anchor on CNBC, who is not the New York Times reporter,
⏹️ ▶️ John was not even even, you know, Joanna Stern, like she could ask amazing questions too. But she’s
⏹️ ▶️ John probably going to focus a little more broadly because the Wall Street Journal is not, you know, a technical
⏹️ ▶️ John paper. You know, it’s not even like our technique or something, right? So, boy, I hope
⏹️ ▶️ John I hope they just don’t stop talking to this group entirely because I think that’s not tenable. Like I think that’s that’s a poor strategy. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a poor PR strategy. And maybe it’s a rebuilding year for PR to maybe they’re like, we don’t trust ourselves
⏹️ ▶️ John to talk to anybody this year. But man, like put out a statement or something. We were
⏹️ ▶️ John sad that we couldn’t do the talk show this year, but maybe we’ll see you next year, because it’s so like it is
⏹️ ▶️ John so important for this relationship for them to come out and have a chance
⏹️ ▶️ John to. I don’t want to explain themselves, but have a chance to.
⏹️ ▶️ John Reengage like to stay engaged, to stay engaged with their most hardcore developers,
⏹️ ▶️ John because there’s a little bit of bad blood there. And one, even if not, even if no one
⏹️ ▶️ John changes their position and no one changes any policies, no one does anything, you can still make things better by
⏹️ ▶️ John just talking about it. And I hope that happens in some form.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I don’t know. We’ll see what happens. I mean, certainly, like you said, we’ve heard no rumblings or rumors or anything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like that, that there’s any, you know, stand in or de facto John Gruber that’s taking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey over, but I don’t know, just it’s, it’s, it’s a bummer. I I’m really sad that this is no longer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a thing because I really, obviously John is a friend, but I genuinely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey believe that he did an impeccable job of riding the line between, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey asking interesting and to a degree challenging questions, but not asking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the ones, as you said, Marco, that, that they’re never going to answer. It’s just never going to happen. And so,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey um, I miss, I feel like John was uniquely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey qualified to interview these executives because he really did strike an incredible balance.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I feel like every single WWDC for the last 10 years, I watched the talk show
⏹️ ▶️ Casey often lucky enough to do so in person. And I always got a tidbit that I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know before and that I found to be genuinely fascinating. And maybe that’s achievable by
⏹️ ▶️ Casey other people, but I do think that John was just so uniquely good at it. And it really bums me out that it’s not a thing or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least not a thing this year. And hopefully I don’t have to say not a thing anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the big thing that John had going for him from our perspective is that many
⏹️ ▶️ John of the things that we are interested in and concerned about, he’s also interested in and concerned about.
⏹️ ▶️ John so that’s what he’ll ask about. And that’s just not true of people with different audiences. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John you want someone up on stage to ask about the thing that I want to know about, even if it’s really
⏹️ ▶️ John weird and obscure. And that would tend to happen with John and
⏹️ ▶️ John not to say that we’re representative of all developers because I bet there are a bunch of developers who are like, let’s say, game developers who John never
⏹️ ▶️ John asked the questions that they wanted to hear asked, right? So it’s narrow slices within slices within slices,
⏹️ ▶️ John but still, it’s good to have somebody who you feel like is your proxy who gets to
⏹️ ▶️ John interact with executives who maybe has a chance of asking a thing that you’re interested in hearing the answer
⏹️ ▶️ John to. And that repeats, that’s kind of like a fractal WWC, like that’s what going to labs means.
⏹️ ▶️ John Back when there was more in-person things and in-person sessions, you could find people who worked on the framework that you’re interested
⏹️ ▶️ John in and talk to to them. That used to be one of the beautiful things about W3C, but going all the way up to the top, it is good to extend
⏹️ ▶️ John that not just to the rank and file people in labs and stuff, but all the way up
⏹️ ▶️ John to the big executives, because some questions are the bigger questions that an executive should address. And some of the smaller
⏹️ ▶️ John questions like when is multiple selections coming to less than Swift UI and
⏹️ ▶️ John cover that whole range. And it’ll be a shame to see,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be a shame for us to see the like that we can talk to the engineers and stuff in labs,
⏹️ ▶️ John but that the things that we care about will never be asked again to executives because
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple just doesn’t see any benefit in answering those questions and doesn’t value our relationship enough
⏹️ ▶️ John to to like the intangibles that Marco was talking about to like go up there and appear human
⏹️ ▶️ John and show that, you know, show enthusiasm, interest and say, we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John not so, you know, we’re actually what’s the cliche that I’m I don’t know why
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m asking you to help me.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I have no idea.
⏹️ ▶️ John We are the same you and I when like the villain says to the hero, we’re not
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey so different you
⏹️ ▶️ John and I. We’re not so different you and me. There you go, we’re not so different you and I. That’s what we need from them and it seems like