catatp.fm Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

592: I Think He Won the Game

18 Jun 2024

Tons more info and follow-up from WWDC and the beta OSes.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Chapters

  1. ✂️🛋️🥽
  2. The Talk Show Live
  3. ATP Interview: Swift Core
  4. PC drama
  5. PC emulator rejected
  6. DMA v. Apple, Meta
  7. Sponsor: Squarespace
  8. Callsheet and Insight
  9. Disable Apple TV sports spam
  10. A Series 0 streak 🖼️
  11. Apple ID → Apple Account
  12. macOS Sequoia
  13. Apple Intelligence
  14. iOS 18
  15. visionOS 2
  16. Swift
  17. HomeKit
  18. CarPlay
  19. Ending theme
  20. Neutral: The Pebble 🖼️

✂️🛋️🥽

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have found a great use for the Vision Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is gonna be good. I don’t think I even knew you had yours back, or do you not?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have, I’ve had it back. It has been in its little marshmallow pod for a month

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or two at least, maybe since last time I used it. I thought you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had loaned it to somebody, that’s why I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco got it. I did,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, I loaned it to a friend for like two or three weeks earlier in the spring. I got you. But I’ve had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it back now for a while. It took me a while to actually motivate myself to actually reset

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it back up as me and you know charge it updated all that stuff because like you know every time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you put it on and it’s either discharged or it needs a software update that’s an excuse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for you or that’s kind of requirement for you like all right let me take it off I’ll let it do its thing and I’ll come back to it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I never come back to it this last few days I have been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strictly constrained to lying on the couch because I got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a vasectomy. It doesn’t really matter for everyone to know this, but it’s minor surgery and more men in this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco country should do our part for birth control since especially women’s options are being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needlessly and horribly limited. So anyway, it’s no big deal. I’ve been laid up on the couch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a few days and I was told, you know, don’t do anything. Like don’t sit at a desk, don’t walk around, like don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lift heavy things, don’t do anything. And honestly, really, men out there, it really isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that bad. If you’re on the fence, just do it. I was scared and it was fine and it’s totally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine. Anyway, I had to lay on the couch for, you know, a couple days and I am really bad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at doing nothing. Like I, like I just want to get up and do, I want to work, I want to do stuff around the house, I want to walk the dog, like there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a million things I want to be doing, but I had to lie on the couch. And when you’re lying on the couch,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really not that comfortable to use a laptop, you know, when you’re like really lying down. It’s also, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a situation like this you might not necessarily want to be putting things in your lap.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Except frozen peas. Right, yes. And by the way, those were great. Noted.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Way better than the special Amazon underwear with the ice packs. I can say a bag of frozen peas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco works better than that. Noted. As you save you 40 bucks. Anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is true because suffice to say, I will be following in your footsteps at the end of the summer. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ John good advice. Geez, all right. Well, after the apocalypse, I guess it’ll be up to me to repopulate the planet. Yep.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’ll be all little Syracuse. It’ll be great. Oh my gosh. Anyway, this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the perfect use case for the vision pro. I got to like lie down on the couch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and like you know I didn’t want to you know if you’re lying down on the couch in most living room arrangements, including mine, you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t look directly at the TV. The TV is like off to your side.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh contraire yeah, I think I have that moved down, but anyway go on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, because you’re like more diagonal anyway. We have a more you know a more like standard like you know linear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco couch to TV layout

⏹️ ▶️ John easy places to put your speakers. Yeah, I know it is. Yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway, so I’ve been watching the vision watching stuff in the vision pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and kind of messing around with it as basically lying on the couch being able to look straight up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have a virtual screen projected straight up above my head. I’ve been like watching WBC session

⏹️ ▶️ Marco videos mostly and stuff like that, but like a long time ago when Federico Vatici

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to spend a lot of time in hospital beds for a while. That’s when he fell in love with the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the iPad was easy to use in a hospital bed. And that was like a huge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computing win for him. I can say with confidence that the Vision Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not necessarily as big of a win for general purpose computing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the iPad is in that context. But it does serve an interesting role in that like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can compute while you are lying down and you can do so while holding nothing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in your hands and barely even moving your hands. And so there are decent numbers of cases where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can be very useful to people. It is a lot harder to get a lot of things done in the Vision Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be honest, and there’s a lot less software and a lot of totally missing apps that you just have no way to run in there. Like the iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But like, man, it actually was like, you know, I actually really came to appreciate it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco during these two days for that purpose.

⏹️ ▶️ John Paul Matzko, MD I thought you were going to say that the person who did the procedure used the Vision Pro to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Dr. Justin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marchegiani Oh, wow. Aaron Powell No. I sure would not have appreciated that. No. Paul Matzko, MD Maybe they did. You don’t know. Aaron Powell That’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no idea. Dr.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Justin Marchegiani Well, I’m glad that it took a little minor surgery to get you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the Vision Pro bandwagon. Welcome. We’re happy to have you. Aaron Powell

The Talk Show Live

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So all kidding aside, you said you were watching some developer videos. Is there anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else that or any moments that you’ve had that you’re like, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is actually pretty great. I also did watch the talk show live in there. It was actually really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool to see it that way. It worked very well. In fact, Casey, you can even hear you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talking at the very, very end, like when the lights,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey everything’s up and the lights come up because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you were apparently sitting like right next to the camera rig. Right at the end, you hear Casey say something like right before the audio cuts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I was sitting

⏹️ ▶️ John right by the camera rig because it blocked my view of the stage.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, well.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s very upsetting, but I survived. I was like, if you wanted to see the show from the perspective of where I sit,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the 3D thing that they put out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I’ll tell you what, so the talk show live, so our friend Adam Lissagor at Sandwich

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this other company, I forget the name of it, Spatial something. Something Gen maybe. Yeah, I think that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They did a live, so Sandwich has a new app called Theater. It’s kind of like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big screen equivalent of their television app where you can watch arbitrary videos inside

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like cool settings or in the case of television, inside retro TV sets in the Vision Pro. So they made this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco theater app and then they did a live broadcast of John Gruber’s, the talk show live at WBDC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco event in stereo video, so in 3D video. It’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool. And first of all, it’s an interesting and remarkable technical achievement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they were able to do this live event this way with what appear to be two very small companies, relatively

⏹️ ▶️ Marco speaking, while Apple has currently broadcast zero live events to the Vision Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, as far as I can tell, there have been no other live events broadcast to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Vision Pro, and it was really compelling. And I don’t wanna speak for them, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from what I heard, it sounded like the engagement numbers were pretty good to my ears.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There really is a cool potential for the Vision Pro for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco spatial video broadcast of like live cool events.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I just hope someone else ever does it because like that really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a really cool idea. It worked very, very well. It turned out great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I would love to watch like other concerts or productions or other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco live events this way. I obviously support people. I never dine to watch sports this way too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s so much potential there. And so I hope that potential is realized, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously if this one, or these two small companies could get together and do this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously there’s nothing stopping like Apple or major sports leagues or major content providers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from doing this themselves. There’s still a long way to go in a lot of the technical angles of it, but this was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally just like, this was a fixed camera at a fixed location. It was like you were sitting in the front row and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just saw a fixed viewport and it was 3D. And it was, yeah, a little bit low resolution and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit low frame rate, but it looked great. It looked like you were there. It was a really cool thing to see. And so I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really hope we see more of this coming to the Vision Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s really awesome. I do plan to at least take a quick watch of it. You know, John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a few of our friends and I were all sitting front row because Gruber was kind enough to, you know, leave some reserved

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seats and whatnot. And so the view of the camera is basically what Syracuse and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had seen. You know, we were on either side of it, but basically what we had seen for the show. And it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a good show. It ran long. I was surprised that the Apple execs were willing to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey give Gruber two hours. Not that he’s undeserving, just that I feel like typically they’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey antsy at like 90 minutes, but it was a full two hours and it was good. So yeah, you should definitely check it out. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they have a rendered or mastered in 4K YouTube version, like a standard 2D YouTube version,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I also have not watched yet, or I mean, since I was there. But nevertheless, if you don’t have a Vision Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t feel like you’re entirely missing out. You can just watch it on YouTube.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s also a podcast, like there was a podcast version today as well. But and so and content wise, I got to say that I really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoyed this live talk show. You know, they were interviewing John, Jean, Andrea, Jaws

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Federighi. And I think it went great for all three of them. And I think John Gruber had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really good balance of like questions to kind of let them flex and show off and tell us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a few more cool details, but also some hard questions that kind of, you know, had them have to answer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for certain things or have to explain certain things. It was a really good balance of that. And so I really enjoyed it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recommended for anybody listening to this show.

ATP Interview: Swift Core

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what else was highly recommended? Our interview, which we were lucky enough to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’re recording this on Friday. It was Tuesday that we sat down with Holly Borla and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ben Cohen, both Swift compiler engineers in that vicinity. Coreteam.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, Swift Coreteam. Thank you. I wasn’t nervous

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going into it, but you don’t know how it’s going going to go and having five people on one show can be challenging.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I thought that Holly and Ben did a phenomenal job. I thought it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really great. They are very willing to get in the weeds, but they don’t jump immediately

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there. You know, they’re extraordinarily good communicators. Both of them was really, really great. And I had an absolute blast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t want to speak for you too. Well, maybe I do a little bit, but I could have gone easily another hour, probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey another two if we had the space and the time and the, I don’t know if Holly and Ben would have liked that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I would have. It was a lot of fun and it was really, really great. And that is not behind any sort

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of paywall or anything like that. It’s just a little bonus episode that we released a couple of days ago now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and it’s primarily for programmers. Like, if you’re a programmer, we do go heavy into programmery

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. It helps if you know about Swift, Apple’s ecosystem. We went very deep because we, to take

⏹️ ▶️ John advantage of the people we got to speak to, that was the best use of our time. Because if you’re talking to experts, you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t ask them just the basic stuff. But we have heard from some people who are like, look, I don’t develop for Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John platforms, or maybe I’m not even a programmer. And they still found it interesting to get a feel for things because we did cover

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff at a higher level as well as getting way down into the nitty gritty. So please check it out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, yep, it was really, really fun. and I think you would enjoy it.

PC drama

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. This is the customary WWDC or post WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all follow up all the time episode. So unless we somehow absolutely fly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through this, I’m just setting the stage now. This is all follow up, but that’s okay. We got to clear the decks so we can get back to regularly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scheduled programming in the next episode. So Microsoft has had a bit of a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey roller coaster over the last few days or last couple of weeks, really. So on June 7th,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s a Verge article, Microsoft changes recall, which is their thing which records your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey screen and lets you ask questions of what you saw where. Anyways, Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ Casey changes recall to be opt-in and improves the security from the Verge.

⏹️ ▶️ John As we predicted, by the way, in the pre-WWDC episode that they would have to change

⏹️ ▶️ John it to opt-in. And we weren’t just kidding. That was the obvious next move. And they did it almost immediately after we released the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And that’s the right move.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Microsoft says it’s making its new recall an opt-in feature and addressing various security

⏹️ ▶️ Casey concerns. Windows and Devices VP Pavan Davuluri,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hopefully that’s somewhere close, said, if you don’t proactively choose to turn it on, it will be off by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey default. They also said, we are adding additional layers of data protection, including just-in-time decryption protected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by Windows Hello enhanced sign-in security. So recall, snapshots will only be decrypted and accessible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when the user authenticates. In addition, we encrypted the the Search Index Database. That was June 7.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fast forward just barely under a week, it’s now June 13. Microsoft delays recall again. Won’t debut

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it with the new Co-Pilot Plus PCs after all. Reading this time from Ars Technica,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Microsoft will be delaying its controversial recall feature again, according to an updated blog post by Windows & Devices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey VP, Pavan Davuluri. And when the feature does return, quote, in the coming weeks, quote,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pavan writes, it will be as a preview available to PCs in the Windows Insider program, the same

⏹️ ▶️ Casey public testing and validation pipeline that all other Windows features usually go through before being released to the general

⏹️ ▶️ Casey public. That was the 13th.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it went from a flagship feature to a big controversy to not being opt-in to

⏹️ ▶️ John not shipping at all, except as a Windows Insider sort of beta preview. Really,

⏹️ ▶️ John this has soured the whole Compile and Plus PC launch for the

⏹️ ▶️ John Snapdragon ARM processor and everything. It’s just what should have been such a clean win

⏹️ ▶️ John for them. Hey, we have good laptops now, a software feature. And I think actually a software feature with

⏹️ ▶️ John a potential to be a good software feature is just done so poorly with,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, this is what it’s so important to like pick the right defaults, to know your audience, to know how

⏹️ ▶️ John to frame things. Like the same basic feature could have been released without all

⏹️ ▶️ John of this, if it had been implemented better, if it had been off by default, if it had been not

⏹️ ▶️ John present on the enterprise version of Windows. You have to really know who wants this, who’s

⏹️ ▶️ John willing to give it a chance, and who absolutely does not want this on their computers. And

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft really blew this one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sure seems like it. All right, so Intel and AMD’s Copilot Plus PCs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey won’t have the Copilot AI features at launch. Whoopsie-dupsies. This is a reading from The Verge. Microsoft’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new Windows AI features, like auto super resolution for smoother gaming, aren’t exclusive to Qualcomm. Intel’s Lunar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Lake and AMD’s Strix Point chips will have enough AI coprocessing performance too. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when Intel and AMD’s new Copilot Plus PCs arrive this fall, no one is promising they’ll ship

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with all or even any of the new AI features. Each of those laptops will require free software updates before they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get Microsoft’s Copilot Plus AI features, and those updates won’t necessarily even arrive before the end of 2024. Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, Intel Lunar Lake and AMD Strix PCs are Windows 11 AI PCs that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey meet our Copilot Plus PC hardware requirements. We are partnering closely with Intel and AMD to deliver copilot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey plus PC experiences through free updates when available.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, this is like, oh, so Qualcomm’s having problems. The ARM, the big coming out party for

⏹️ ▶️ John Windows on ARM with good laptops is not going well. And Intel and AMD, as we noted on the pre-WDC episode,

⏹️ ▶️ John they have their own processors that also qualify for this. And they’re not here to rescue anybody because Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t have the software features ready for them yet. It seems like Microsoft was like, this is gonna be, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, This is our chance to make arm a thing, you know We won’t even support the Intel AMD

⏹️ ▶️ John things or maybe it was just poor planning. But this whole This whole launch like it I guess it’s just what

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess is just a 2025 thing And we’re they’re hoping we’ll just ignore it until then.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’m very disappointed

⏹️ ▶️ John Obviously, I want Windows to go entirely to arm that seems like it’s not happening But they can’t even get the Intel and AMD

⏹️ ▶️ John versions of these features out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You just want it for the games I do 100% I do. I mean, I think this you know, this shows though like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a massive of architectural change and all new processors and all new hardware, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big ordeal. Like, you know, it shows,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple was able to do it, but it took a ton of work. And that’s just one company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who, you know, could get aligned behind it. The PC ecosystem does not work that way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all. You have, I mean, you know, think about the uphill battle they have here. They have an architecture

⏹️ ▶️ Marco transition that most of their customers don’t want, that totally screws some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of their biggest partners in Intel and AMD, dealing with a company Qualcomm that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is certainly not like super easy and friendly to deal with by most metrics

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we hear about, but mainly selling into companies that kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of don’t want this, selling to users that kind of don’t want this with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bunch of software that’s not ready for it. So yeah, they kind of have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a tough environment to get this through. They’ve tried this before, it didn’t work. Obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things are a little bit different now, technology’s better, the translation slash emulation story

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is better. So I think they have a better chance now, but it’s still far from an easy thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they’re doing is trying to convince a whole bunch of companies and a whole bunch of customers to take a move

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that many of them don’t wanna take.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so the recall thing doesn’t help with that because that’s like just an additional thing to deter you. You didn’t even know this

⏹️ ▶️ John was on the table, it’s a thing that can make you not want it, but guess what, we added a thing that’s scary you don’t want on top of that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing is, I don’t think they’re framing it as an architecture transition. It’s more like, here’s another way that

⏹️ ▶️ John you can run Windows. And it’s complicated by the fact that they keep bringing up AMD and Intel, and AMD and Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John do have hardware that competes, which is why it’s not a transition. It says, look, these are new

⏹️ ▶️ John software features in Windows. And by the way, they’re also supported on a new architecture, and you shouldn’t have to know which is which,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the reason for you to buy an ARM PC is undercut by Intel and AMD

⏹️ ▶️ John having competitive SOCs, which they will soon-ish. And then those

⏹️ ▶️ John SSDs won’t have all the features that you’re rolling out in software. Like again, it seems like their role is to,

⏹️ ▶️ John like in 2027, if Microsoft paint a picture of what the PC market would look like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John guess it’s like you can buy a Windows PC with AI features and it will either have an x86

⏹️ ▶️ John processor or an ARM processor. And like, what is their ideal percentage of

⏹️ ▶️ John the market? Is it 50-50? Is it 60-40? Is it 90-10? Like it doesn’t seem like they’re even trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a transition because as you noted, a transition would totally screw over into an AMD

⏹️ ▶️ John and they don’t wanna do that, but I don’t honestly know what they’re trying to do here, or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever it is, they’re doing it poorly.

PC emulator rejected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey UTM, which is a general purpose emulator, won’t be in the App

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Store. So this is a post from one of the authors, I guess. Thomas,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after an almost two-month long review process, Apple has rejected UTM-SE from the iOS App Store as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well as from notarization for third-party app stores. Their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasoning is that Rule 4.7, which Apple recently introduced that allows for Delta, PPSSPP,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and other emulators to be allowed, does not apply to UTM-SE. the App Store review board determined that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quote, PC is not a console, quote. Regardless of the fact that there are retro Windows and DOS games

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the PC, that UTM-SE can be useful in running. Additionally, Apple stances that UTM-SE

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not allowed on third-party marketplaces either, because rule 4.7 also applies to the notarization review guidelines.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So rule 4.7 covers mini apps, mini games, streaming games, chatbot, plugins,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and game emulators. Then there was an update later on from UTM. Apple’s reached out and clarified

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the notarization was rejected under rule 2.5.2, and that 4.7 is an exception that only applies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to App Store apps, but which UTM-SE does not qualify for. And then you can see more on Michael Tsai’s blog.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, UTM writes, we will adhere by Apple’s content and policy decision because we believe UTM-SE,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which does not have just-in-time compilation, is a subpar experience and isn’t worth fighting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for. See a blog post that I think, I’m pretty sure we talked about this in the past, but about why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dolphin the, what is that a Wii emulator? Is that right? Yep. MQ. Why it isn’t coming to the app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey store. And so UTM continues. We do not wish to invest any additional time or effort trying to get UTMSE in the app store or third-party

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stores unless Apple changes their stance. I’m not loving this, not loving this at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this is, this is something because like, so what? Apple rejecting stuff from the app store, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like even it’s weird that they’re rejecting because they allowed Delta and this is an emulator that doesn’t have a JIT. So it should fall

⏹️ ▶️ John within the rules, but it’s a PC emulator and PCs aren’t consoles. Remember we talked about the definition of like retro

⏹️ ▶️ John console games, what do all those words mean? Apple has now said after two months, PC is not a console, fine,

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. But they also rejected it from the notarization process, which is an overloaded term

⏹️ ▶️ John in the Apple world, that they do for things going to third-party app stores. So they can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John even get this into a third-party app store. And Apple’s only supposed to reject things from third-party

⏹️ ▶️ John app stores for using private APIs and for security reasons. They could

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe make an argument some sort of security issue with this thing of like, well, it’s an emulator and

⏹️ ▶️ John like, it can download arbitrary, but like, I just I don’t understand how they’re going to defend this to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, remember when we said we’re just going to check for private API’s and security. Also, we’re just going to make decisions like we don’t want this emulator

⏹️ ▶️ John in any stores, not even ours. I don’t know. I don’t know why they would do this. Like, why do they care if a

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that emulates Windows and DOS games is on a third party app store?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This doesn’t make any sense to me. And Maybe there is a completely fair and logical reason, but I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey put my finger on it if so.

⏹️ ▶️ John If there is, I feel like they would have communicated it to the UTM authors. You know what I mean? They would have said, here’s why, because like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the virtualization framework you’re using has a security flaw and it will allow people to root phones or something. Like just say that

⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s the case, but they haven’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Not a great look, not a great look at all.

DMA v. Apple, Meta

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Apple and Meta could face charges for violating EU tech rules. Apple and Meta could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey soon face charge, I’m sorry, this is from The Verge, could soon face charges from the European Commission for violating Digital Markets

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Act or DMA rules. The commission is reported to be targeting Apple over its steering rules that charge

⏹️ ▶️ Casey developers for pointing to third-party purchase options. Meta’s charges will reportedly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey revolve around its ad-free subscription for Facebook and Instagram in the EU. The commission will be using preliminary

⏹️ ▶️ Casey findings according to Reuters, meaning that the companies can make changes to try to correct things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey before the commission makes a final decision. Apple is set to be charged first, Reuters reports, and the Financial Times says we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could see the charges in the coming weeks. They can charge something like 5% of annual revenue or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So this is pretty serious money if they choose to go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that deep in it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this is a leak. I mean, we talked about this right after Apple rolled out its DMA compliance. And we said

⏹️ ▶️ John the EU is investigating to see if what Apple did is actually compliant.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re coming to the part where we’re gonna get that answer and it seems like this is a leak from the EU to say

⏹️ ▶️ John our Answer is going to be no what Apple did is not compliant This doesn’t even mention things like rejecting

⏹️ ▶️ John UTM from third-party app stores This is just talking about you know The steering rules

⏹️ ▶️ John and taking money from developers for going to third-party purchase pages and stuff like that We’ll see what the ruling

⏹️ ▶️ John says They’re always kind of Slow to move and a little bit back in time like they can’t keep up with all the violations

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple is doing but Yeah, that’s always the risk with these things

⏹️ ▶️ John is they make a rule, Apple says they comply, and then the EU takes its time to say, but have you

⏹️ ▶️ John really complied? And their ruling is coming and it doesn’t look good for Apple. Say it again like you mean it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Yeah. It’s not looking good for Apple. And I mean, I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have such mixed feelings about this. And depending on when you catch me, sometimes I think the EU is being a bit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey heavy handed. and then I’ll tell you 10 minutes later that Apple deserves everything it’s getting. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right now I’m leaning more towards, well, you kind of deserve it, but ask me again in 10 minutes, like I said.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but I mean, that right there, like that is the risk of failing to self-regulate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and creating a need for governments to step in. Because when governments do step in, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not gonna get everything right. Like they’re gonna do things, because these are largely not technology people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Certainly, whatever technology people who talk to the government and influence them going to be only from a certain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco side of it. Um, so when, when governments are forced to regulate tech, they don’t always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do what’s good for everybody or what’s good for us in the industry or what’s good for our customers. And that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco risk. Like when, you know, but for Apple failing to self-regulate to an acceptable degree for all these years,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I think getting worse over time in a lot of these areas, um, they have invited

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the government regulation risk, you know, by, by their own failure to self-regulate.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s, that’s the risk of doing that. Like, yes, they’ve made some extra money here and there,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, on their various App Store cuts and anti-competitive behavior they’ve done there, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they also provoked governments to regulate them. Now they have to accept the consequences

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that. I think it would have been a better long-term strategy to hold back a little on the anti-competitive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco behavior and maybe avoid some of this regulation. But, I mean, hey, I’m not the CEO of Apple, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they didn’t take my advice, obviously, and we’ll see how it turns out. But that’s, you know, they rolled the dice themselves,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this is what they got.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they’re still kind of betting that their compliance, people call it malicious compliance. It’s not quite

⏹️ ▶️ John that bad, but it’s like, can we plausibly comply with this in a way that makes all the alternatives

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re trying to introduce unattractive? And as we’ve discussed in the episode about the DMA compliance,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if they were complying with the letter of the law here, they are not complying with the spirit. They have

⏹️ ▶️ John worked very hard to arrange things to make the alternatives basically impossible for

⏹️ ▶️ John them to be more attractive than what offers because of the rules that Apple itself makes. They made rules

⏹️ ▶️ John to make all the other options at best on equal footing with Apple’s, but most

⏹️ ▶️ John of the time, you know, worse. And that is not the spirit of the law. The spirit of law is supposed to allow competition. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John supposed to allow Apple to make a set of rules that doesn’t allow anything better to ever

⏹️ ▶️ John exist. And rejecting apps like UTM from third party app stores is just

⏹️ ▶️ John icing on the cake. So, so far, they’ve been betting they can get away with this. The penalties are supposedly huge.

⏹️ ▶️ John but like all government things, everything happens slowly. We’ve waited how many months for the EU

⏹️ ▶️ John to say whether they’re compliant. They’re probably gonna say that they’re not, and who knows how much longer we’ll have to wait

⏹️ ▶️ John after that for Apple to say, okay, well, what about now? Now are we compliant? And this could just go on for ages. So,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the wheels of government move slowly.

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Callsheet and Insight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, uh, achievement unlocked. I was a little, little itty bitty spec in the keynote

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the actual WWDC keynote. Um, we were seated fairly far away from the screen,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is fine. I’m not complaining, but my eyes are not good enough to have been able to discern,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, you know, the, the wall in the wall of icons of vision pro apps. Does mine exist there?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I mean, given that there’s not too many, you would think so. And some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John ego that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was all all of them on screen. And eagle-eyed viewers have pointed out to me,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I think, John, I think you made this very helpful image. No sarcasm. I did

⏹️ ▶️ John make it for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thank you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But there,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the top of the screen, is Call Sheet. So I was actually with my friend, Steve, that did that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey icon. Jelly did the kind of default one for iOS. Steve did the default one for Vision

⏹️ ▶️ Casey OS. And I was with him just an hour ago, and we were both sharing a happy moment

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about how we had made it into the keynote. So that’s very, very exciting. I was very pleased to see that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s awesome,

⏹️ ▶️ John congrats. Thanks. That was the good news. That was the good news to you, Casey. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey some not so good

⏹️ ▶️ Casey news. Now, some not so great news. So Apple TV’s Insight feature, which is like the Amazon X-ray thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which for a brief window of time, I thought completely Sherlocked me, and then the more I’ve learned, the more I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not true, I say as I knock on wood. Anyways, that feature apparently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will also use your iPhone, which admittedly, like taking off my selfish hat for a second, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sounds really slick. So reading from 9to5Mac, when using the existing remote app on iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple will populate your iPhone’s display with the info provided by Insight. This means you won’t need to obstruct your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey view on the TV with the Insight panel, but instead you can view and interact with Insight entirely on your iPhone. Again, taking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off my selfish hat, that is very freaking cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I thought you were totally safe because no one wants to junk up their screen with stuff that blocks the view. When

⏹️ ▶️ John someone wants to ask something, they should just look it up on their phone. Obviously, Call of Duty is still way more full featured and

⏹️ ▶️ John the Insight feature and has tons of tons of information. You know, anyway, but still Apple did apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John provide a way for you to look up this information without junking up your screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This next one, I did not see when I was going through the show notes literally three hours ago. So this must be another

⏹️ ▶️ Casey late breaking news and it makes me miserable. So apparently Insight isn’t using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like metadata on Apple TV or Apple, yeah, Apple TV plus provided media.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s using ML to identify actors and songs. Please tell me it ain’t so.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is very late breaking news from digital trends YouTube channel that I watch for TV

⏹️ ▶️ John reviews And they’re doing like a news segment and they’re always talking about Apple TV I think this is info straight from

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple apparently that instead of doing what Amazon does which is of course hire armies of people

⏹️ ▶️ John to watch every single show on their streaming service and Manually annotate when every single actor

⏹️ ▶️ John is on the screen so that the little pop like that’s what they do It’s like who’s visible on the screen now who’s in this scene

⏹️ ▶️ John x-ray shows that and the Amazon video thing I thought that’s what Apple was doing. They’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John just do it for their own shows, because I believe this is limited to Apple TV+, but according to this video that we will link

⏹️ ▶️ John in the show notes, apparently, no, they’re using machine learning to identify both the actress faces

⏹️ ▶️ John and the Shazam thing to identify the songs, because that’s all they show, and this is a very limited feature. They show the actress who

⏹️ ▶️ John are on screen, and if there’s music, they show the song that’s playing. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, what they said in the video that we’ll link is that that means insight could potentially

⏹️ ▶️ John be sort of an OS wide thing on tvOS and not just in Apple TV plus because

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re just looking at the video and Identifying faces, you know, and it also means well, okay

⏹️ ▶️ John Is it gonna be able to identify pieces of people when they have you know? makeup on or they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John dressed as like a you know a fantasy creature or something or Their backs

⏹️ ▶️ John to the camera or they’re in shadow I’m really curious to see,

⏹️ ▶️ John A, if this is actually true, and B, how well this feature works as compared to the let’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just brute force it method of Amazon of having people enter all that information.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, this makes me very sad. I mean, well, again, as a user, that sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey incredible and really, really useful. But as a developer of a competing product, that’s making me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hear a very, very sad

⏹️ ▶️ John trombone. And it makes Apple happy because they don’t want to spend money. And hey, we don’t have to pay hundreds of

⏹️ ▶️ John people to watch thousands of hours of content and manually annotate it, why don’t we just let computers do it for us?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed, that is, we’ll see what happens. But selfishly, I hope not. Unselfishly,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, let’s go.

Disable Apple TV sports spam

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So you had cast about John. I think it was you, John. Maybe it was Marco, but I’m presuming it was John. It was all of us. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was all of us. There you go. To how do we disable sports? Well, it wasn’t me because I actually kind of like this. Anyway, how to

⏹️ ▶️ John disable you like the sports that you didn’t you didn’t chime in. Do you do you like them? Like, oh, I didn’t know that my favorite

⏹️ ▶️ John college football team something happened to them. Do you that happen?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I like it on the occasion. It’s a team that I care about. Now it will if memory serves.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t other than F1, I’m not really paying attention to sports at the moment. So anyways,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it’s a team that I don’t care about, or especially a sport I don’t care about, then I find it frustrating and annoying,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I think you guys do. But if it’s at least a sport that I care about, like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s say it’s a close game between two teams that I don’t really care that much about, then I don’t mind that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so much at all. But so like if it’s two college football teams, for example, that are having a close game, yeah, maybe I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be interested in that. But if it’s two, I don’t know, baseball teams that are having a close

⏹️ ▶️ Casey game, could not care less.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not care less. See, here’s why this thing has irritated me so much. You know, people wrote in to say, oh, just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unfollow all the sports teams. You must have launched Apple Sports and followed sports teams. And so I went

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in there and nope, sure didn’t. Then some other people said, oh, you have to go unfollow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your local teams in the Apple News app under their sports section. So I went there and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nope, I didn’t have anything there either. This is literally just an opted-in feature that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they added to tvOS for, I think, everyone, because nothing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about any of my Apple activity would suggest that I ever want to watch or ever have watched sports using an Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device. So I guess this is just opted in for everyone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And what drives me nuts is like, Apple is, or at least used to be, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco careful about respecting the user experience when doing something really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco immersive, like watching a drama on TV. Like, I’ve been sitting there watching these, like, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, really serious TV shows. Often, by the way, not even using the Apple’s TV app, often in other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps like the Max app. And then this sports pop-up pops up in the corner, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I never would have enabled that, I never did enable that, I’ve never watched sports on an Apple device, I don’t follow any sports teams on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any device, let alone an Apple device, because I don’t follow any sports! They are just intruding

⏹️ ▶️ Marco upon the sanctity of a full-screen TV episode, a drama that I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watching on my TV with their premium experienced, allegedly premium experienced Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco TV platform in box. That is so against their ethos. That is so gross.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple used to never do stuff like that. And there are so many paper cuts like this creeping into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their products in the effort of ever increasing services, engagement and revenue. It is really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco irritating me. And it just seems like the standards of the company around things like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are just going down and down and down over time and it makes me sad.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can see why they would want to throw this in people’s face because no one’s ever going to find

⏹️ ▶️ John it like to turn it on manually. But the normal way to do that,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is still irritating but is way better than what they did is on first startup

⏹️ ▶️ John after the OS update or on the first time you go back to the home screen after the OS update, pop up a one

⏹️ ▶️ John time thing you hope it’s one time pop of a one time thing that says, hey, by the way, it looks like you’ve just upgraded

⏹️ ▶️ John to TVOS 123. There’s a new feature that will show you sports scores when something exciting

⏹️ ▶️ John happens. Do you want to enable that? Yes, no. But they didn’t do that. They just literally apparently turned

⏹️ ▶️ John it on. And as Marco mentioned, those places that he mentioned to look, you should look

⏹️ ▶️ John there. Because I did add favorite teams to the sports app. I’m like, that must be it. So I deleted

⏹️ ▶️ John them. And I looked in Apple News, and I didn’t have anything there. But the actual location of this feature,

⏹️ ▶️ John thanks to Jason Snell, is in tvOS, go to settings, apps,

⏹️ ▶️ John tv, and then find the item that says exciting games in the notification section and

⏹️ ▶️ John turn that off. That is the thing that they turned on for you. No one would ever find that on their own to turn it on

⏹️ ▶️ John manually, which is why you’d have to prompt them on first boot after the new OS or whatever, but they just turned

⏹️ ▶️ John it on for everybody. As Marco mentioned, like of all the things to intrude on, a full screen

⏹️ ▶️ John watching television experience that they need to come up with, like sort of company wide

⏹️ ▶️ John guidelines that like, look, unless someone has manually opted into it, you cannot ever pop up anything

⏹️ ▶️ John on the screen. Unless it’s like their house is on fire, like the home kit can pop up things. If there’s a smoke alarm going off, I’ll allow that or like

⏹️ ▶️ John a security camera. But other than that, sports scores are not the same as your house on fire.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean, I can totally understand why this would be very frustrating, and I do not like how buried

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is. Let me just repeat what you said. Settings, apps, TV, exciting games. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not where I would look to find this at all, but what are you going to do?

A Series 0 streak

Chapter A Series 0 streak image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. We got a phenomenal flex from Matthew Willoughby,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who is extremely excited about finally being able to get a rest day. And they sent us

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a picture of an Apple Watch Ultra, where it says, you’ve received this award.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is your longest move streak. You’ve received this award for your longest move streak, which lasted 3,338 days. This was sent on such a day that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess, John, you computed that 3,338 days before when this was sent was April 23rd of 2015. What

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does that have any significance?

⏹️ ▶️ John That was the day the original Apple Watch first launched. On the previous episode, I said, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John this move streak thing where you are allowed to have rest days, I bet there’s someone out there who got a Series Zero watch

⏹️ ▶️ John and has had a move streak going since that day and somehow didn’t lose their streak every time they upgraded

⏹️ ▶️ John watches. And it’s And it’s just thankful that finally they can get a rest day. This person truly does

⏹️ ▶️ John exist. It’s Matthew Willoughby. Yep. This is wearing an Apple Watch Ultra. So he has

⏹️ ▶️ John upgraded from the Series Zero through a series of Apple Watches to the Ultra. He is his move streak has lasted

⏹️ ▶️ John the longest that any Apple Watch move streak could possibly last for someone who bought this watch at retail

⏹️ ▶️ John because that was literally day one of the release of the Apple Watch. It’s impressive. It’s very impressive.

⏹️ ▶️ John He says, and I quote all caps, I can finally have a rest day. Yes, Matthew, you can.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’ve earned it. I’m not sure that’s what he said. I think what he said is, I can finally have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a rest day! It’s something more along those lines.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple should fly someone to his house. Like, you, like

⏹️ ▶️ John the gamification of fitness. I think he won the game. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well done.

Apple ID → Apple Account

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Apple ID has been renamed to Apple Account, as was foretold.

⏹️ ▶️ John As the prophecy foretold.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Apple, in one of their newsroom posts, says, with the releases of iOS 18, iPad OS 18,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey macOS Sequoia, and watchOS 11, Apple ID is renamed to Apple Account for a consistent sign-in experience

⏹️ ▶️ Casey across Apple services and devices, and relies on a user’s existing credentials.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did it. So they did this, and now make a marker, listener

⏹️ ▶️ John here, how many years will it take us to not say Apple ID on this program? Infinite,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey infinite years. It’s going to be a while.

macOS Sequoia

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s start doing some OS-based follow-up. And let’s start because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John wrote pretty much all these show notes. Where do you think we’re going to start? We’re going to start with macOS. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell me about macOS 15 Sequoia with the Apple Pencil and iPad in sidecar mode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So what’s the ask here? What are we talking about?

⏹️ ▶️ John Technically, we started with tvOS because we wanted to get your glory slash sadness in. But anyway, yes, macOS

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is the

⏹️ ▶️ John next one up. So we were talking before, like, we were talking about math notes. Like, do you think you could use Math

⏹️ ▶️ John Notes with handwriting in Sequoia if you use an iPad in Sidecar mode?

⏹️ ▶️ John They should do that, that would be really cool. And apparently that already works.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not in Sequoia, but if you take your iPad and use it in Sidecar mode as

⏹️ ▶️ John a second monitor, which I did with my iPad, and have an Apple Pencil, you can go into, for example, the Notes

⏹️ ▶️ John app and scribble yourself a little sketch on your iPad, even though you’re using the Mac OS version

⏹️ ▶️ John of notes because then you’re just using your iPad as a secondary screen, but it’s basically a touchscreen

⏹️ ▶️ John on your Mac. It even does the hover effect with the cursor and everything that already works. Now I didn’t try it with

⏹️ ▶️ John math notes on Sequoia. It’s mostly because math notes in Sequoia in the very first

⏹️ ▶️ John developer beta is super duper buggy. But I’m hoping this will mean that if you really want

⏹️ ▶️ John to handwrite math notes on your Mac, and you have an iPad, you can do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is very cool. That’s super neat. Chris Chalberg writes with regard to iPhone mirroring

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Sequoia. Is iPhone mirroring a way to rearrange your iOS home screen more easily? I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Possibly. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. I hadn’t thought of that, but like I would much rather use a mouse pointer than my

⏹️ ▶️ John finger because a it doesn’t obstruct everything and be I have pixel perfect precision as I try to drag. It

⏹️ ▶️ John will still be that weird game of bumping around icons and stuff. But this actually is a big upgrade

⏹️ ▶️ John in my ability to rearrange my home screen without pulling my hair out. We’ll see how it goes. But and also

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing with where the being able to leave space, I hope it doesn’t make the icons as squirmy and as you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John collapsible as they were before. So I am actually looking forward to trying this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I’m not trying to be funny. Remind me why people like what is what is this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey network locations thing? Like I’ve heard of this and I remember talking about it having left and everyone was upset, but I don’t think I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever used it. So can you give me like a two second tour of what network locations is, please?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t use it either. But I I believe the idea is that when you are in different locations,

⏹️ ▶️ John you might have different network setups. When I’m at work, I use Worx DNS servers. I have a VPN.

⏹️ ▶️ John Wi-Fi is ahead of ethernet in my network order, like all sorts of stuff like that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t want to have to manually switch all this networking stuff, network locations. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know if it’s actually location aware, but it does let you have a pop-up menu that says, I’m on this network now. I’m on my home

⏹️ ▶️ John network. I’m on my work network. I’m on my traveling network where I use a VPN or whatever. Like, I believe

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what the feature is for. The reason it’s a story is because it disappeared when they when they redid the settings

⏹️ ▶️ John app and when a system preferences became system settings, network locations disappeared. The functionality was still in the OS, but

⏹️ ▶️ John the GUI for it was gone. And story is now thanks to Raycat, let us know, network locations

⏹️ ▶️ John are back in the GUI in Sequoia. So if you missed them, they are there, they’re still kind of buried in the network

⏹️ ▶️ John pain. But it’s better than trying to do it from the command line.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We do have some sad news, though, from Rob. Good news, Syracuse, it looks like the password

⏹️ ▶️ Casey field is still right aligned in the passwords app, at least on iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s the same on Mac OS. I launched the I installed Sequoia, I was using the beta, it launched the password app. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just so weird. Like if you stick the insertion point at like

⏹️ ▶️ John the beginning of the word, yeah, it is the beginning, it’s the first letter of the word. And you type a character,

⏹️ ▶️ John the character appears to the left of your insertion point. That’s very weird. Which makes sense if you think about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like when you’re typing, it’s like, this is not how typing should be. Like again, I think this is

⏹️ ▶️ John possible on the web using modern web technology, but no one would ever do this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like why? Just, it’s literally a form. There are labels

⏹️ ▶️ John and there are text fields. Username colon field, password colon field.

⏹️ ▶️ John It doesn’t have to be this hard, Apple. Just use regular text fields. You’re breaking my brain.

⏹️ ▶️ John I should file a bug on it now. I guess I, you know, you gotta get those bugs in early. Hell, I mean, I don’t know why I didn’t file it for the

⏹️ ▶️ John year and a half since this, or two years or whatever it’s been since this. File it now. Like you made a whole new app, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John all new. Can we fix the text fields, please?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Our friend MB Bischoff writes with regard to Sequoia window tiling, a window tiling in Sequoia

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can be disabled or set to happen only when option is held down. Also, it can optionally leave margins between

⏹️ ▶️ Casey windows. That’s pretty cool, I didn’t know any of that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m shocked if there are any settings related to this. I was afraid I would just have to like find some

⏹️ ▶️ John hidden P list key to turn it off. But if you can find it in system settings, it’s a little bit hidden. There

⏹️ ▶️ John are three whole options to do it. And I was playing with the tiling. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know if I know all the options, but it seems kind of limited.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, it didn’t seem like a lot of flexibility for the tiling where I can do eighths and thirds and grids

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that. It’s more like just left half of the screen, right half of the screen, top, bottom, limited top,

⏹️ ▶️ John bottom stuff, because when you do the top, you end up going to the spaces thing. But anyway, margins between windows, I

⏹️ ▶️ John am a big fan of, but I know some people don’t like it. So hey, make it a toggle. If you don’t like margins, no margins. If you do like them, there

⏹️ ▶️ John they are. It doesn’t let you adjust the margins, which they should. And my dream of having full Windows

⏹️ ▶️ John Server access to make a real window manager continues to be a dream. But for now, all those people who

⏹️ ▶️ John like Windows-style windows tiling, they will get thrown a bone in Sequoia.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have a miracle. A miracle has happened in Sequoia. Steve Trout and Smith noticed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there’s an update to the chess app. Yes, in Mac OS, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey been a chess app, what forever, I think, or at least in month.

⏹️ ▶️ John I believe it was there in Next as well, but don’t quote me, it was in Next app. It’s a very old app.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, so apparently the renderer has been updated, and according to Steve Trout

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Smith, it’s the first time since Mac OS 10.3 Panther, which is 21 years ago.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey My goodness. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ John to a poster by cable sasher that shows the old renderer and the new one. The new one I’m assuming is

⏹️ ▶️ John using a reality kit and it looks nice and the old one looks super dated. And remember, the old one

⏹️ ▶️ John was new and Mac OS 10 10.3 21 years ago. So

⏹️ ▶️ John the chest not only will the chest out and not die, it’s seems like it’s getting more update than a lot of other apps.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Mac OS these days. Indeed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey With regard to iCloud keychain and browser integration in Sequoia, Jonathan Freese

⏹️ ▶️ Casey noticed that a clean install of Mac OS Sequoia has what appears to be pre-installed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey extensions for passwords. And John, you’ve put in a bunch of JSON in our show documents. So can you talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this, please?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I look, he just sent like the, the path to like, you know, a

⏹️ ▶️ John JSON file, and it was like slash library slash Google slash Chrome slash native message host slash

⏹️ ▶️ John com.apple dot password manager JSON, like, okay, but does that say

⏹️ ▶️ John that there, the extension is pre installed? or is that just information about where they might get it? And I

⏹️ ▶️ John looked at it, and if you look at the JSON, it’s got a name and a description, and it’s got

⏹️ ▶️ John a path. And the path is to the CryptEx thing, I think we talked about in the past shows. The system has these CryptExes, which are like

⏹️ ▶️ John sub-images that are allowed to be overlaid on top of the cryptographically secure OS image so that

⏹️ ▶️ John the combination of them is also cryptographically secure. And the CryptExes are so that Apple can update those

⏹️ ▶️ John separately from the whole OS so they don’t have to do a full OS update when one little thing changes.

⏹️ ▶️ John and it looks like it’s called password manager browser extension helper.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that the full extension? It looks like it. I mean, it’s a dot app. It’s, you know, dot app contents,

⏹️ ▶️ John macOS. I think that Apple is literally bundling the iCloud,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like Jonathan says, the iCloud key chain extensions for Chrome

⏹️ ▶️ John and for Firefox. I guess I should, I mean, I had limited time with the developer beta. It seems

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty solid, but like a lot of the new features are buggy or entirely missing like the AI stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I’ll have to continue to look into this, but that would be a bold move. Pre-shipping, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, really just saying, hey, you know, third parties have to make you install their browser extensions

⏹️ ▶️ John to use it for their password manager, but we can just ship them. We’ll just ship, everyone who gets this, and honestly, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think, well, in one respect, I think it’s a good idea, because you get explaining to anybody that like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you can use iCloud Keychain. It does two factor. It does this, it does that.

⏹️ ▶️ John A, they don’t know what iCloud Keychain is, and they say, oh, but I use Chrome. No problem,

⏹️ ▶️ John just install the iCloud Keychain Chrome extension. I would

⏹️ ▶️ John never trust someone, someone who’s not a tech nerd, to be able to find the correct,

⏹️ ▶️ John non-scammy, real, live, Apple iCloud Keychain. I don’t even know what it’s called. I have

⏹️ ▶️ John to check 100 times before I install it to make sure I’m, this is actually from Apple? Or is this just gonna steal all my passwords?

⏹️ ▶️ John pre-installing in the OS is the right way to go. Must be nice to be the platform owner.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed, you can just make these things so much easier. There is incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great news for a lot of developers, particularly Mac OS developers. For the longest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time, if you wanted to have a virtual machine on your computer, maybe of an old version of Mac OS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that, you couldn’t sign into iCloud. So that means on this VM,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you couldn’t do anything that relates to iCloud, because it wouldn’t let you sign in. And that’s still true of,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of all the existing or the like already released versions of Mac OS. But Sequoia

⏹️ ▶️ Casey virtual machines will allow logging into iCloud, which is super duper exciting for those that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have that need. That’s not me personally, but that is really great. No, no joke. So reading from Ars

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Technica, as long as your host operating system is Mac OS 15 or newer, and your guest operating system is Mac OS 15

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or newer VMs will now be able to sign into sign into and use iCloud and other Apple ID related services

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just as they would when running directly on the hardware. That’s very cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they mean Apple account related

⏹️ ▶️ Casey service. Ah, that’s true. They

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John already did it. It begins.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It begins. And then there’s a doc on Apple’s developer site, using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iCloud with macOS virtual machines. And reading from that doc, when you create a VM in macOS 15 from a macOS 15

⏹️ ▶️ Casey software image, blah, blah, blah, virtualization configures an identity for the VM that it derives

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the security information in the host’s secure enclave. Just as individual physical devices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have distinct identities based on their secure enclaves, this identity is distinct from other VMs.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so this is a thing that pretty much only Apple could do because they’re the ones who are the keeper of all the software that interacts

⏹️ ▶️ John with a secure enclave. The reason it didn’t work before is because the VMs didn’t have access to that and you need

⏹️ ▶️ John that to sign into iCloud. And you may be thinking, who cares if you can sign into iCloud? So many things and so many apps

⏹️ ▶️ John require an iCloud login, not just like in-app purchase or stuff like that, but anything that uses CloudKit

⏹️ ▶️ John or any of Apple’s cloud services. It was very difficult to do what, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS users take for granted of being able to have like a simulator or a VM where you can test your software,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially for Mac OS, when you, if you want to support like two versions back, you had to keep around old Macs running old

⏹️ ▶️ John versions. And that’s a little bit more cumbersome than keeping around old phones because the Macs are just bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John and you got to have a keyboard and mouse attached to them and everything, right? We’re like, it would be great if we could just do this all in virtualization. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John but we can’t because even though you can and have been able to virtualize Mac OS for years, the inability

⏹️ ▶️ John to sign into iCloud, put a big damper on that. Now, it’s not great that this requires, you have to be running Sequoia

⏹️ ▶️ John to run the VM, and the only OS you can run in the VM is Sequoia or later. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t help people now, but two years from now, you’ll be able to run the two-year-old version

⏹️ ▶️ John of Mac OS in a VM. So, I mean, you can quibble with how they did it or whatever, but obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ John it kind of requires support in both the OS and the VM thing, so I can see why it requires 15 on both,

⏹️ ▶️ John and in a few years, this will fix itself. I’m just glad this finally came. They heard the cries of their developers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Next stop, Mac OS simulators and Xcode? Dare to dream.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That would be cool. And I mean, there’s no reason not to, right? I mean, the reason is it takes work, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hypothetically, there’s no reason that Apple couldn’t do it.

Apple Intelligence

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s move on to Apple Intelligence. Rick Noller writes with regard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to Apple Intelligence and third-party mail apps. Could you add your Gmail account to the Apple Mail app and then hide

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it? That might allow Apple Intelligence to access that info, but you wouldn’t have to use it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or see it in mail.app. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I do this on my Mac. I think I mentioned this before. I have a weird arrangement, Apple Mail on my

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac, which is an app that I do not use. I occasionally launch it, and I have my Gmail account

⏹️ ▶️ John configured with this ancient Google thing that has been in there forever where you can

⏹️ ▶️ John pop from your Gmail account. It’s very strange, and they still support it. I keep waiting for it

⏹️ ▶️ John to break. But the old pop protocol where you just say, what’s new since the last time I checked and it downloads the messages

⏹️ ▶️ John individually, right? That exists for Gmail. And I use it to basically make

⏹️ ▶️ John a network backup of my Gmail, right, an incremental network backup. So I launch Apple Mail every once in

⏹️ ▶️ John a while. It downloads all the messages into a pop local mailbox, and I just stick them into a folder called

⏹️ ▶️ John Gmail Archive. It’s the tertiary backup of my Gmail.

⏹️ ▶️ John And what that means is Apple Intelligence on, not my Mac, but

⏹️ ▶️ John on my future Mac, will be able to have access to my mail to use that to give it the context

⏹️ ▶️ John that it needs to do smart things. But on my phone, I don’t do that. And so the suggestion from Rick is

⏹️ ▶️ John something I’m gonna try. I configured my Gmail account, not with POP, but just the default

⏹️ ▶️ John way you can configure it on your phone. I haven’t figured out how to hide the account. I just ignore it and I’m into my other

⏹️ ▶️ John inbox. I’m not in like the all inboxes view or whatever. And I hope what that means is that my phone will

⏹️ ▶️ John also see my mail. Now, unfortunately, I don’t ever wanna use Apple Mail and

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll set my, you know, my default email client is set to the Gmail app. But I hope this means that Apple Intelligence,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, not on my current phone, because it’s only a 14 Pro, will be able to be smart

⏹️ ▶️ John about my email, even though I don’t use Apple Mail.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Xcode AI code completions. In the documentation for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Xcode 16, it reads, Xcode 16 includes predictive code completion powered by a machine learning model

⏹️ ▶️ Casey specifically trained for Swift and Apple SDKs. See, objective C. Predictive code completion requires a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Apple Silicon and 16 gigs of unified memory running Mac OS 15.

⏹️ ▶️ John So not a double whammy. So A, Xcode 16, if you want the cool code completion, you have to also

⏹️ ▶️ John be running Mac OS 15, which has

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey not

⏹️ ▶️ John always been the case. Sometimes, usually when there’s new versions of Xcode, you can run them on the current stable OS.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they work and have all the features, but not this year. And the second thing is, hey, you want code completion?

⏹️ ▶️ John Hope you didn’t buy a base model MacBook or MacBook Pro with 8 gigs of RAM, because the cool

⏹️ ▶️ John smart code completion requires 16 gigs of memory. In other words, it requires a co-pilot

⏹️ ▶️ John plus PC.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ooh.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s tough. But I mean, here we are. With regard to more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with regards to the hardware requirements, David Steer writes, I’m curious as to why Apple Intelligence

⏹️ ▶️ Casey works on M1 chips, but you need an A18 Pro to use it on iPhone. If I recall correctly, the M1 is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey roughly equivalent to the A15 Bionic, which means anything after iPhone 13, including iPhone SE third generation,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could possibly have the necessary power, but crucially not the required amount of RAM. Do you think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey possible that Apple’s notoriously stingy RAM provision could be coming back to bite them in the era of AI? It’s true

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that lack of backwards compatibility could help them manage server capacity or drive customers to upgrade their devices, But they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to balance that with the difficult messaging that their new flagship features are not available to the vast majority of their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey user base

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, 100. It’s the ram. Uh, I mean, uh gruber asked that on the talk show and they were typically cagey

⏹️ ▶️ John about it But they did confirm it’s lots of factors including the ram It’s 100 the ram like that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John the 15 pro can do it and the other ones don’t yes The 15 pro does have a better neural engine than the 14 pro

⏹️ ▶️ John but not that much better uh, but what the 15 pro has is more ram and And it seems

⏹️ ▶️ John to me that getting any of this stuff to work on a phone with the limited amount of

⏹️ ▶️ John RAM that’s on a phone, because I believe, what does the 15 Pro has, what, eight gigs? I believe that’s right. So we just got done

⏹️ ▶️ John saying that on the Mac, to get a somewhat pedestrian

⏹️ ▶️ John AI feature, like code completion of like where it writes some code for you or whatever, you need 16

⏹️ ▶️ John gigs of RAM. And they’re trying to get this to work on a phone with eight. They cannot get it to work on a phone

⏹️ ▶️ John with six, apparently. Like RAM is the thing here. If you bought a base model MacBook Air

⏹️ ▶️ John after hearing people rave that you can do everything on it, you can buy an eight gig MacBook Air, you can do Xcode, you can do all your development.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you don’t get the AI features that you want from the new version of Xcode because you need 16. And we

⏹️ ▶️ John discussed on a past show how the rumor was that all of the phones for this year in September are going to have eight gigs

⏹️ ▶️ John of RAM. This is why, right? And even eight gigs is probably pushing it because that’s the same amount as the 15 Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why didn’t they go to nine or 10 or 11 or 12 or 16, whatever. AI eats

⏹️ ▶️ John RAM. It needs a lot of it. RAM takes battery, RAM takes space, RAM

⏹️ ▶️ John produces heat. Like Apple is stingy because they’re cheap, but also stingy because,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially in a portable device, RAM has a cost to it. Well, now they’re rolling out tons of AI features

⏹️ ▶️ John and I don’t think Apple wants the only phone that

⏹️ ▶️ John can run this stuff to be the very tippy top flagship. Because even the iPhone 15 can’t run it. Only

⏹️ ▶️ John the 15 Pro can run it. That is not ideal. It’s nice on the Mac that it can run all, you know, all the AI

⏹️ ▶️ John features can run all the way back down to the M1. So kudos to those teams, but like the Macs, you know, Macs have more

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. They have more battery, they have more memory, they have more CPU. And even though the Xcode

⏹️ ▶️ John code completion requires 16 gigs, Apple intelligence, broadly speaking, as far as I know, does not require 16 gigs.

⏹️ ▶️ John So a lot of the Apple intelligence features will work with eight gigs, just not the Xcode thing, it seems.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, this is definitely chickens coming home to roost. Apple being stingy with RAM, seems like it’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John Every time someone probably made an internal argument, we should put more RAM. They say, it’s fine, I’ll show you. Like we even got some inside

⏹️ ▶️ John information ages ago. They said, we did tests with, it was just about SSDs. And it

⏹️ ▶️ John turns out one SSD chip isn’t actually that bad. It’s not noticeably worse than having the two SSD

⏹️ ▶️ John chips. So we didn’t do it. They reversed that decision because of, you know, presumably public outcry, or they just

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t want to hear people whine about it anymore. But all the previous cases where they said, actually eight gigs of RAM is

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. They need to keep up with the pace of the industry, even if it

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t seem like it’s strictly necessary, they can lag behind a little bit, but you can’t just ignore it forever and saying there

⏹️ ▶️ John will never be another thing that we need to do that requires more RAM than we have now. Here’s AI saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John guess what? We found a use for all that RAM. That always happens. There’s always something over the horizon

⏹️ ▶️ John that requires more resources. Usually it’s just games. Honestly, games will always eat everything you give

⏹️ ▶️ John them. But sometimes there’s applications that everybody uses, although at this point, everybody games

⏹️ ▶️ John to some degree or another. Something is going to want those resources. Computers are never fast enough and

⏹️ ▶️ John never have enough RAM. So you have to keep up with the industry. You can’t say we finally

⏹️ ▶️ John plateaued. Computers will never need more than eight gigs of RAM. It’s AI now, who knows what it’ll be in 20 years. Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John please give us RAM.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this also should inform your purchasing decisions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Macs over time. I mean, if you buy a Mac today and you want it to still have cutting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco edge features for as long as possible, this is a pretty big reason to not just leave it at the 8

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gig default. Even 16, because LLMs as we know them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are giant ram hogs and because we don’t really know what the future will hold

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with features, there might be some really killer feature that comes out in two or three years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that requires 16 gigs of RAM or more on the Mac to actually be usable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even if Apple doesn’t do it, someone else might. So this should inform your purchases

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even today. Like, you know, sometimes you can kind of peer into the future and be like, well, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re on the cusp of something that’s about to need a lot of resource X. In this case, we are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there right now for RAM. We are in the early days of something that needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of RAM. And so maybe for your next Mac purchase, get a little more than you otherwise would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple’s AI training data at machinelearning.apple.com and we’ll put the full URL in the show notes, of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey course. It reads, we train our foundation models on licensed data, including data selected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to enhance specific features, as well as publicly available data collected by our web crawler, Applebot.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Web publishers have the option to opt out of the use of their web content for Apple Intelligence training with a data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey usage control. We never use our users’ private personal data or user interactions when training our foundation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey models. And we apply filters to remove personally identical information like social security

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and credit card numbers that are publicly available on the internet. We also filter profanity and other low quality content

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to prevent its inclusion in the training corpus. In addition to filtering, we perform data extraction, deduplication,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the application of a model-based classifier to identify high quality documents.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so this is kind of the same answer that they gave on stage. We saw them twice talk about this, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John once in the iJustine interview and then again on the talk show. And as I said before, and I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John say again, their answer to how do you train your AI models is not great. It could be worse.

⏹️ ▶️ John I like the idea of they’re saying, we are not using your private or personal data. We’re not training in anything that you do.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they do use licensed data and so on and so forth, but they also always have this item. They say,

⏹️ ▶️ John we use publicly available data. Oh, you can opt out. Well, it’s kind of hard

⏹️ ▶️ John for us to opt out when this is the first we’re hearing of the fact that you’re training AIs on our data. So you already got

⏹️ ▶️ John it. You already did it. You already trained. Now, I think Applebot has existed, is a preexisting thing, and we could have

⏹️ ▶️ John been blocking things with robots.txt or whatever. But if you care about this, If you didn’t know that Apple was

⏹️ ▶️ John training its AI, you wouldn’t have maybe been blocking Applebot because you’re like, oh, Apple’s not doing anything like that. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have to worry about it. Now, setting aside the legality and ethics of training

⏹️ ▶️ John on this type of data, I’m still kind of surprised that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple didn’t use one of its greatest resources, money, to pull an Adobe and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John we do not train on publicly available information. We train only on information that we licensed, cut deals

⏹️ ▶️ John with the people who have the information, make a licensing deal with the New York Times, if you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to do with Wikipedia, with Encyclopedia Britannica, with like

⏹️ ▶️ John just having sort of consensual data sharing relationships, but apparently that is insufficient to train

⏹️ ▶️ John something as complicated as what they’re attempting to do. So they’ve been training on publicly available information when we use their

⏹️ ▶️ John crawl on the web, looking for stuff and throwing it through this engine and

⏹️ ▶️ John how that’s going to shake out in the US anyway has yet to be determined because those cases are winding their way through the

⏹️ ▶️ John court system. I don’t think Apple’s really pinning itself into a corner here because there are other companies that

⏹️ ▶️ John are much worse off. If it turns out that training on publicly

⏹️ ▶️ John available information requires some kind of legal arrangement or whatever, Apple will just make those legal

⏹️ ▶️ John arrangements. Like they’re not doomed or anything like that. It just kind of surprises me that they didn’t take an

⏹️ ▶️ John even more conservative approach than they have. And so it forces Apple executives to be on stage and they have to

⏹️ ▶️ John say, we use this, we use that, And we also use publicly available information. If you press them and say, what is publicly

⏹️ ▶️ John available information, I mean, they will say web pages, web pages that are on the web, your web pages. Do you have

⏹️ ▶️ John a blog? Is it on the web? Does it have stuff in it? We probably trained our AI on it, unless it contains profanity or credit

⏹️ ▶️ John card numbers or whatever, right? That is not an easy thing for a company like Apple to

⏹️ ▶️ John talk about or say, and in this case, they can’t say, oh, but you know, open AI, we push all the problems off

⏹️ ▶️ John onto them because this is Apple training its models, its foundation models, and presumably

⏹️ ▶️ John its future chat GPT competitor on publicly available information.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So, what if you don’t want your website to be included in Apple’s AI models?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, there’s a knowledge-based document that we will link in the show notes that describes how you can modify your robots.txt

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in order to tell it to kindly bugger off.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, just go back in time and do that like two years ago.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly. But we’ll put a link in the show notes if you’re interested. All right. Tim Cook did an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey interview on the Washington Post. The Washington Post asked a lot of questions. John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’ve extracted a few. We would do you want me to play the role of Tim and you’ll play the role of the Washington Post?

⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t do both.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can I thought we’d

⏹️ ▶️ John play

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it. Can you do Kim? No, I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do it. Good morning.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Exactly. All right. The

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Washington Post asks, Did you take any special delight in calling it Apple intelligence as opposed to artificial

⏹️ ▶️ Casey intelligence? To which Tim replied, it seems sort of a logical conclusion after looking at so many names, at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me, I can tell you it wasn’t a riff off of artificial artificial intelligence. Wow, I’m struggling. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wasn’t? Yeah, right. It was sort of calling it what it is. I’m sure a lot will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John be said about it, but it’s probably not as it appears. As far as Tim

⏹️ ▶️ John is concerned, it’s just like, oh, it’s an Apple feature that’s intelligent, has nothing to do with AI. Okay. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, sure, Tim.

⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. I mean, at least for him, he’s saying his perspective. Uh-huh.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh-huh. Washington Post asked, what’s your confidence that Apple intelligence will not hallucinate.”

⏹️ ▶️ Casey To which Tim replied, it’s not 100%, but I think we’ve done everything that we know to do, including thinking very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey deeply about the readiness of the technology in the areas that we’re using it in. So I’m confident that it will be very high

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quality, but I’d say in all honesty, that’s short of 100%. I would never claim it’s 100%.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this is interesting because, you know, as people have noted, like when they, you opt into open AI,

⏹️ ▶️ John it, you know, you have to explicitly say you’re sending your data to them. And when, when it comes back, there’s a little disclaimer

⏹️ ▶️ John underneath it. Like there isn’t all all these things that says, you know, check important information, or this information

⏹️ ▶️ John might not be correct, or so on and so forth. But this question was not about OpenAI. It was not about the OpenAI integration. It

⏹️ ▶️ John wasn’t about that screen that has the disclaimer at the bottom. It was about Apple intelligence. And because Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John does have models, the chances of Apple’s own stuff, not OpenAI, the stuff that stays on device or goes

⏹️ ▶️ John to Apple’s super duper private servers, what about that? Does that have a chance of hallucinating? As I continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to futilely point out, hallucinating is a terrible term because there is no distinction between

⏹️ ▶️ John a quote, hallucination and a quote, correct answer. The AI model is functioning

⏹️ ▶️ John the same way in both cases. It’s not like, oh, it made a mistake or it got like, we know from the outside, we can

⏹️ ▶️ John judge whether we think this is a good or bad thing, but the internal machinery is operating

⏹️ ▶️ John as expected in both cases. Everything from an LLM is either not a hallucination

⏹️ ▶️ John or a hallucination. There’s no special like, oh, it did a bad, it did a good. Like it’s just a big stew

⏹️ ▶️ John of words and probabilities and it’s a machine that is deterministic,

⏹️ ▶️ John that is fed various inputs and various parameters that tweak it and you get output from it

⏹️ ▶️ John and every time it does that it is exactly as correct or exactly as incorrect as every other instance.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway what it is saying is can that machine produce stuff that is not useful because

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t fulfill the purpose. If you’re asking a question did it give you an answer that is correct?

⏹️ ▶️ John Did it actually give you something helpful? Did it understand what you were asking for and give it to you? Like we can

⏹️ ▶️ John judge what it does. And this is Tim Cook saying, some of the things that we ship as

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Intelligence might not do the right thing. Now for Genmoji,

⏹️ ▶️ John what do you care? You ask for, you know, a turtle skiing down the Alps,

⏹️ ▶️ John then the turtle doesn’t look like a turtle. Who cares, right? No harm, no foul. Summarization,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess it could get wrong if you ask it to summarize something and its summary is

⏹️ ▶️ John not accurate in a way that is significant. Like if it’s a big article about like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John how much detergent you’re supposed to use in the dishwasher and the article has a whole bunch of paragraphs talking about all the things

⏹️ ▶️ John that you shouldn’t do and then at the end tells you what you should do and the summary decides that the

⏹️ ▶️ John best summary of this article is one of the bad things, that the article is somehow concluding that you should

⏹️ ▶️ John do one of the things that it’s actually saying you shouldn’t do, I would call that, in Tim’s parlance here,

⏹️ ▶️ John a hallucination. because you asked it to summarize the article and it didn’t summarize the article the way

⏹️ ▶️ John a human would because it didn’t understand the point of the thing. And if you rely on that summary,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll put the wrong amount of detergent in your dishwasher or whatever. And this is another awkward position

⏹️ ▶️ John for Tim Cook to be put in. This is a good question from the Washington Post. You have to say, you’re rolling out a bunch of these features.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are they going to essentially malfunction and not do what they’re supposed to do in a way that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not like, oh, we’ll file a radar and we’ll fix it. Because you know, ship software that doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ John But those are bugs and they can fix them. There’s nothing you can do when this happens. You could send this to Apple and say, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John it summarized this thing wrong and they’ll try to make it better next year. But it’s not as simple as like

⏹️ ▶️ John this caused a crash or, you know, this thing was misaligned or a cosmetic error or whatever. This is a different

⏹️ ▶️ John realm where Apple is shipping products that might not function correctly and

⏹️ ▶️ John that there’s nothing Apple can do about it except for like try harder next year with their next model that is

⏹️ ▶️ John trained on more data that they select from the web.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So then the Washington Post asked, what makes you think OpenAI and Sam Altman specifically are trustworthy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey partners who share Apple’s values? Very well phrased and a very good question, to which Tim replied,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’ve done some things on privacy that I like. They’re not tracking IP addresses and some of the things like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that that we’re very keen on not happening. I think they’re a pioneer in the area and today

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they have the best model. And I think our customers want something with world knowledge some of the time. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we considered everything and everyone. And obviously, we’re not stuck on one person forever for something.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’re integrating with other people as well. But they’re first. And I think today it’s because they’re best.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s another uncomfortable situation. People keep asking Apple about OpenAI. It’s uncomfortable that feature exists.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s uncomfortable that OpenAI is what it is. Tim is trying to put a lot of spin on it. So they’re doing some things with privacy. Like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know why they’re doing that? Probably because Apple forced them to.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right? I don’t think they were doing

⏹️ ▶️ John that on their own. I think if you use a chat GPT through the web, there they are tracking IP

⏹️ ▶️ John addresses and other stuff like that. But whatever they did with Apple, you know, it just

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s there’s baggage that comes with Sam open and open AI and Apple. I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John they feel like, you know, this is this is on Tim because, you know, he’s the person to give a go no go on this

⏹️ ▶️ John type of thing, saying, this is what everyone’s talking about. We need to have it. We don’t have any of this. We

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t don’t have anything that matches this internally. And in fact, we think it’s a little bit dangerous. But either way, we have no choice.

⏹️ ▶️ John We have to partner. And the Google deal didn’t go through, and they’re still keeping the door open. Say

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not just OpenAI, we’ll partner with whoever. But yeah, they have to partner with this company and put a disclaimer

⏹️ ▶️ John on their little thing. It’s the opt-in, and there’s a disclaimer that says it might be wrong, but they feel like they need

⏹️ ▶️ John to have it because they think that’s what people want. I think they’re right

⏹️ ▶️ John that that’s what people want. I think the whole story would have been that they still don’t have an AI chatbot, but I think the

⏹️ ▶️ John utility of AI chatbots is still maybe not it’s kind of like when something

⏹️ ▶️ John is good enough to like work in a Disney context I know Apple and Disney aren’t the same thing but like when is it good enough to work in an Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John context where we have more expectations about

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know the cultural expectations of an Apple product are different than you know like a PC

⏹️ ▶️ John type thing or an Android phone. It’s it’s more more

⏹️ ▶️ John cautious about, you know, like there’s, you know, the App Store is not the same

⏹️ ▶️ John as the open web. Let’s put it that way, right? Yeah, Apple runs the App Store in a more cautious way than

⏹️ ▶️ John the open web runs, which is bad and good in some ways. And but here they are. They’re like, we have to

⏹️ ▶️ John we have to provide this option. And we have to awkwardly answer every press question about it by saying, people

⏹️ ▶️ John want it. They are the best one. We’re not stuck with them. Next question, please.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The aforementioned Steve John Smith asks with regard to Siri unsupported devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so Steve writes, I still have so many questions about Apple intelligence. Does Siri just not get better on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything below an iPhone 15 pro? No improvement to the cloud-based Siri on older devices, home pods,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple TVs. It’s a good point.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know the answer to that. The Apple, I don’t think anyone asked Apple that and they should have. Obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ John the older devices can’t run Apple intelligence on them. certainly a HomePod can’t. Talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John RAM limits, right? Which by the way, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a device that is all about Siri, and that is so reliant on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri, and is so bad with Siri,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the device that needs it the most. It’s such a shame that this is not going to get it.

⏹️ ▶️ John It makes me wonder, is like, is a new HomePod coming with eight gigs of RAM? Actually, I shouldn’t say that. I don’t actually know how much

⏹️ ▶️ John RAM a HomePod has. Do you know how much RAM a HomePod has?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I have no idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John 128 kilobytes. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it does have eight gigs. But anyway, here’s the thing though, for all the devices, like every

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone, except for the 15 pro, it’s not like Apple can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John make Siri better for them because they could like the whole, the whole magic of their

⏹️ ▶️ John strategy for Apple intelligence is that they run it on device if they can. And if

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t, they run it on basically a logical extension of your device. That’s the whole private

⏹️ ▶️ John cloud computing thing. It is like a bigger iPhone processor that is not in the room with you.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so that’s the the cloud, the transparency of like, we’ll run device or run there. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the software doesn’t care where it runs, because it’s basically running on Apple silicon with, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John of a different size, right? runs on big Apple silicon in our data centers runs on smaller Apple silicon on your

⏹️ ▶️ John phone. It could be that on devices like the HomePod

⏹️ ▶️ John or every phone except for the 15 Pro, it could just send everything to private cloud computing,

⏹️ ▶️ John which obviously would be slower and there’d be latency and so on and so forth, but at this point, tons of Siri stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John most of the Siri stuff goes across the network anyway. That could make Siri smarter on

⏹️ ▶️ John devices that can’t run Apple Intelligence locally. I would vastly prefer that. My HomePod

⏹️ ▶️ John now is currently sending things over the network and taking a long time to do bad things. How about updating it

⏹️ ▶️ John and having it do everything through private cloud computing to the LLMs. I hope that’s what they do, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I find it not encouraging that Apple never offered that as

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing that they’re doing. Everyone was so excited and jazzed about Apple intelligence. No one really said,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, what about my HomePods? Maybe they just assume we all think, we all understand

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what’s going on, but they didn’t say it. They didn’t say, we’ll dynamically choose if we do it locally or remotely.

⏹️ ▶️ John And of course, on devices that can’t do it locally, we’ll do it all remotely. They didn’t say that at all. So we will all find

⏹️ ▶️ John out when we start installing the betas that actually have Apple intelligence features in them on our unsupported devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Silicon, in Apple’s private cloud computing servers, there’s a blog post about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this, which I did not have a chance to read, but I presume, John, you at least glanced at it. You know, I need some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey AI to summarize this for me. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so this was a question on the talk show Live, which we talked about before. You can pull a link to the YouTube video so you can

⏹️ ▶️ John check it out, or the Vision Pro video, if you have one, get it out of its little marshmallow.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It’s a pretty big

⏹️ ▶️ John marshmallow. Yeah. Gruber asked them, what is the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Silicon that is running on Apple’s private cloud compute servers? Like, what is it? And predictably,

⏹️ ▶️ John they did not answer that question, right? It’s Apple Silicon. Yeah, there was no way they were gonna answer that. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John we talked about the, like maybe three or four shows ago, we talked about the rumor that said that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to run data centers with M2 Ultras in them or whatever. And we thought that doesn’t make any sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John And again, the private cloud computing thing explains that. We talked about it in the WWDC episode. Now it does make sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John And using M2 Ultras also makes sense because this is a chip they already designed.

⏹️ ▶️ John The speculation has been that there hasn’t been enough time for Apple to make any kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of custom server chip. They sort of decided to do this too

⏹️ ▶️ John late because the lead times on Silicon are so long. And depending on how successful this

⏹️ ▶️ John effort is and how many servers they need, It takes a certain number of products to

⏹️ ▶️ John justify making a custom chip. And M2Ultra, despite being very power efficient and having

⏹️ ▶️ John lots of compute and so on and so forth, is not the ideal chip for

⏹️ ▶️ John doing private cloud computing AI stuff. It doesn’t need the H.265 decoder and encoder

⏹️ ▶️ John on there. It probably doesn’t need Thunderbolt since it doesn’t have persistent storage. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not a purpose-built server chip. Lots of other companies do have purpose-built

⏹️ ▶️ John server chips. Companies that run huge amounts of servers like Google and Facebook and Amazon, right? Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John as far as we are aware on the outside, even though they do run servers, they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have their own dedicated server silicon. I feel like if they did, they would have bragged

⏹️ ▶️ John about it. So the rumor about them using M2 Ultras makes sense. There’s a bunch of things on that chip that aren’t being used

⏹️ ▶️ John and are just being wasted. I think, you know, maybe two or three years ago, they started the project

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a dedicated server chip And that’ll come out in two or three more years after

⏹️ ▶️ John that. But that is something to watch for because, you know, I can tie everything to the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a situation where they have to make a weird custom chip that has a limited application

⏹️ ▶️ John whose needs are different than all the needs of their other chips because server is different than in the same

⏹️ ▶️ John way that the Mac Pro is different. Can they bring themselves to do that? Or will it just be, will their server farms

⏹️ ▶️ John just be the dumping ground for the unsold cheap to produce inventory of the two

⏹️ ▶️ John years ago, pretty good Mac Studio chip.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Apple and OpenAI aren’t paying each other yet, says Bloomberg.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is reported on Bloomberg and then covered on the verge. But Gurman says Apple isn’t paying OpenAI

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as part of the partnership. Instead, Apple believes pushing OpenAI’s brand and technology to hundreds of millions of its devices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is of equal or greater value than monetary payments. ChatGPT will be offered for free on Apple’s products,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but OpenAI and Apple could still make money by converting free users to paid accounts. Today, if a user subscribes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to OpenAI on an Apple device via the chat GPT app, the process uses Apple’s payment platform,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which traditionally gives the iPhone maker a cut. Then back to the Verge, recapping,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the report also says this deal isn’t exclusive to OpenAI and that Apple is in talks with Anthropic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Google to offer their respective chatbots as an alternative option, with an agreement for Google’s Gemini expected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be in place later this year.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Gerber also asked that on stage, hey, which way is the money flowing in this situation? obviously didn’t answer.

⏹️ ▶️ John This makes some sense. Apple is in the power position here. Apple essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John owns billions of customers who have shown a willingness to spend money. Open AI

⏹️ ▶️ John wants access to those customers. If Apple’s offer to them is we will literally build

⏹️ ▶️ John you into the operating system. You couldn’t ask for a better customer acquisition tool than this. It’s your job

⏹️ ▶️ John to convert those people by having a good enough product that people want to pay for it or whatever. It makes sense

⏹️ ▶️ John that there’s no money changing hands either way, because on the other hand, open AI can say, well, you don’t have anything like what we have. And we’re the

⏹️ ▶️ John market leader. And in the end, those two things cancel each other out, according to this rumor, and nobody pays anybody

⏹️ ▶️ John and open AI helps to do lots of conversions and Apple as always hopes to take a lot of 30

⏹️ ▶️ John to 15%. Jared Ranere

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. All right. And then the sane writes on the impact

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Apple intelligence, do you think that the arrival of Apple intelligence is pulling dev time away from the from the workflow features and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shortcuts, or might these be rolled together in a future release? I’m sorry for chuckling. It’s just, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey view those as at all related. Like the sorts of people who work on one, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess in some cases could be the same people that work on the other, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from what little I know and from what I know as a developer, I don’t think that people that are really good at doing the sorts of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that Workflow does are gonna be necessarily very good at doing the sorts of things that Apple Intelligence does.

⏹️ ▶️ John I put this question in here because a sort of company-wide fire drill effort like Apple Intelligence

⏹️ ▶️ John pulls resources from everything. Even if it’s not the same people, because

⏹️ ▶️ John so many people in so many groups across the entire company have shifted their focus

⏹️ ▶️ John because an edict has come down from on high that 2024 WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ John is gonna be the coming out of Apple Intelligence. This really does,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it is a company-wide tax And it was the right thing to do. They should have done this, arguably they should have done

⏹️ ▶️ John it earlier, but it does take away from things. Even the problem is like, even if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not a person who was taken off task by doing this, people you work with were taken off task. People

⏹️ ▶️ John have probably moved around, right? Priorities change. Maybe your thing that you actually did have time

⏹️ ▶️ John to work on and finish, doesn’t even make it into the OS because it’s all hand on deck to debug the feature that somebody else

⏹️ ▶️ John wrote because that’s the important one to roll out. So, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John in every release, priorities shift around and the thing you might want to be developed might not get

⏹️ ▶️ John the resources that it deserves, but Apple Intelligence is definitely one of those times, every few years,

⏹️ ▶️ John where there is a big movement within the company that has the potential to impact every

⏹️ ▶️ John aspect of the software stack that is released to WWDC.

iOS 18

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s talk iOS 18. There are some indentations

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the bezel in iOS 18 when you engage Siri, I guess. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really difficult to verbally describe. And I’m going to read a little bit from the Verge. But there is a GIF link

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you can and should click, because no matter how I describe it, it’s not going to make a lot of sense. So here we go.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When you press the side buttons while running the iOS 18 beta, there’s a clever new animation that makes it look like you’re pushing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the bezel into your screen a little bit. At first glance, there’s not much purpose here other than to add a little whimsy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it might also be a practical visual indicator if Apple eventually releases phones with solid state side buttons that don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey move when you press them. And again, there’s a link in the show notes to a GIF so you can see it in action.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, so I kind of get having a visual indication you successfully

⏹️ ▶️ John pressed the button is a good idea. People should do that on the web. They should do it in their iOS apps. I am shocked

⏹️ ▶️ John when this does not happen. I think during WWDC, I was complaining to somebody, might have one of you that the WWC

⏹️ ▶️ John like the developer app where you can bookmark sessions that you might want to look

⏹️ ▶️ John at later when you tap the little bookmark icon, it does not highlight in any way

⏹️ ▶️ John to show that you’ve tapped it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You and I were talking about this

⏹️ ▶️ John over and over and over again. And it’s not clear whether you’re toggling in on and off, or whether you’re just

⏹️ ▶️ John saying on on on or if none of those things are happening. It’s not a good UI. That said,

⏹️ ▶️ John usually the feedback that you successfully press the button is that you feel it go in and out.

⏹️ ▶️ John And even for like the buttons that don’t move like the iOS like the iPhone 7 home button

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what the vibration feedback is to let you know you have successfully pressed the button. Now

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s this visual bit of feedback where what it looks like is you’ve you’re super strong and you have

⏹️ ▶️ John dented the side of your phone

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in momentarily and

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve dented the screen and this little black region from the side of your screen right next to the button invades

⏹️ ▶️ John the pixels of the screen and just goes like like you’re shoving a little black rectangle into the screen region and then letting it go back

⏹️ ▶️ John out again. I’m not sure I find it aesthetically pleasing, but I do like

⏹️ ▶️ John the idea of visual feedback. But it also makes me worry that the like non moving buttons

⏹️ ▶️ John that have been rumored for ages, maybe aren’t that great. And they need to add this. It’s more clear that you press

⏹️ ▶️ John the button. I don’t know. It is. It looks a little bit weird to me. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it looks

⏹️ ▶️ John really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool, honestly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. I actually thought it looked pretty neat. I mean, obviously, I haven’t used it in my own hand, but it looked pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slick to me. All right, Caleb Denman writes that in iOS 18, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can now change the width of the beam of the flashlight. It works on the 15 Pro, 14 Pro, and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any iPhone with a dynamic island. And I read this and I understood the words, but I was like, I’m sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what? How, what? And so a friend of the show, Quinn Nelson, has helpfully recorded a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey short little video, which we will put in the show notes that demonstrates this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know that this is incredibly useful, except on the rare occasions when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re like trying to find something in the dark room and your partner or whatever is asleep and you don’t want to blind them with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the flashlight going full blast. That actually seems like it could be pretty useful.

⏹️ ▶️ John The interface of this is weird. It’s like you have like an X and Y axis for swiping. Like the Y axis is

⏹️ ▶️ John brightness and the X axis is beam width. And since it’s a circle, it’s really more like beam diameter.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not actually sure how they’re doing it. Is there like a matrix of LEDs

⏹️ ▶️ John in there or something? I don’t know. Apparently, it’s on my phone, so I’ll try it out when I get the beta.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then finally for iOS, Steve Shotton-Smith, as we’ve mentioned many times, writes, there are new APIs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to provide a locked camera capture extension, which must be launched via button on the lock screen, control center,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or the action button. It cannot be launched by swiping sideways on the lock screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a video about this from WWDC this year. I spent some time with my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good friend Ben McCarthy, and let me tell you, they were very excited about this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for their app Obscura. So you should definitely I know Ben is definitely going to be playing with this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey soon.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that was my question on the WWDC episode. Does swiping I know you can put the button for third party things, but

⏹️ ▶️ John does it also work with swiping? Because I thought it would be weird that the button launches one camera app and the swiping

⏹️ ▶️ John launches another that It could also be a feature if you want to have two camera apps and remember that the swipey one is the default one

⏹️ ▶️ John and the button one is the third party one. But it does seem kind of strange. Like they’re giving access to the lock screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John they have an extension to do this, they could just as easily have a setting somewhere that says, hey, do you want swipe

⏹️ ▶️ John to also activate the camera that you put in the little, you know, control center button

⏹️ ▶️ John thing or whatever. But not in the first beta anyway. And I didn’t watch the video so maybe they just explicitly say

⏹️ ▶️ John no in iOS 18 it’s not It’s not going to be that way.

visionOS 2

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s move on to Marco’s favorite platform, Vision OS, Vision OS 2.0. Vision

⏹️ ▶️ Casey OS 2.0 features that were not mentioned in the keynote, and there’s a Vision OS 2.0 preview

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that Apple has. You can customize your home view. Finally, and Apple writes, you can now personalize your home

⏹️ ▶️ Casey view. Simply pinch and hold to jiggle and arrange apps and bring them to your home view, including those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from your compatible apps folder. Very nice. Finally. You can see your keyboard in any environment.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When you’re immersed in an environment, Vision OS 2 recognizes and reveals your Magic Keyboard or MacBook keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so you can keep typing away.

⏹️ ▶️ John Cool. Does it only recognize those keyboards or does it recognize?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Sure sounds like it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like they should have a keyboard recognizer and say, is that a keyboard? It’s either probably rectangular.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can probably find the edges, but okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Guest user improvements. All I’ve read about this so far is what I’m about to read to you, but oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey word, I’m here for it. So it says Vision OS 2.0 now lets you save your most recent guests eye and hand data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so they can easily skip their next setup, which is pretty cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John How many recent guests? Just one for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now. Just one. Steve Trout and Smith writes, the enterprise APIs for Vision OS 2,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which there was a session about enterprise APIs in Vision OS 2 at WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyways, so it’s enterprise APIs include things like access to the main camera, pass-through capture, and barcode

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or QR scanning, but only for in-house or business to business apps. You can’t ship this stuff to the app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey store.

⏹️ ▶️ John Very weird. It’s interesting that they’re making concessions for what appears to be their one enthusiastic

⏹️ ▶️ John customer base for the Vision Pro right now, which is enterprises that don’t balk at the price and have

⏹️ ▶️ John apparently come up with useful applications for a high quality VR, XR

⏹️ ▶️ John headset thing. They’re giving them much more access. If you need to get access to this

⏹️ ▶️ John this hardware, more direct access to this hardware, to make this Vision Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John be useful for use on your factory line or whatever you’re having people do with this stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John you could have it, it’s just you can’t distribute those things to the app store, that’s just your own private little, they’ve always had

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of the enterprise certificates and enterprises can have their own little private per enterprise app store with their own distribution

⏹️ ▶️ John certificate, and that is one case where Apple has been a lot looser because it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John like the whole world, it’s just a very, very narrow use case So it’s interesting that they are immediately,

⏹️ ▶️ John essentially, giving up on a lot of the restrictions for the Vision Pro for customers that

⏹️ ▶️ John really, really want it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, The Verge writes, more new features coming in Vision OS 2.0 that either weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mentioned or flew right by. Placing app windows, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can place them further away than you could before. That’s, I guess, for people with much better vision than I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have. Volumetric windows, which are ones that let you view an app’s content from all sides,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tilt to face you so you can use them while lying down. Ahem, Marco. The developers can opt out of this if they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want. You’ll also be able to resize them, which is cool. You can also offload virtual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey environments. Their icons will still be there, but if you’re sick of Mount Hood, it doesn’t have to take up space anymore. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey am offended by this, The Verge, because that’s my favorite one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John And

⏹️ ▶️ John by space, they mean SSD space, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I guess.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How big

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could those be? I don’t know. Challenge accepted. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco then while watching

⏹️ ▶️ Casey full screen videos in a virtual environment, you’ll be able to lie down and recenter them above you. Good stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s especially useful for you, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco So there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you go. Yeah, that was one thing I had to keep sitting up for the talk show live, because regular windows, you can just hold down the home button

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’ll just center whatever you’re looking at as the center of the view. But the fully immersive things seem to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not have any up and down rotational ability. So I’d just keep sitting up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco taller than I probably should have been that moment to watch the talk show.

Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then, with regard to Swift, Swift has been moved out of Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey GitHub account and it is now in its own account, Swiftlang.

⏹️ ▶️ John Ben Cohen actually mentioned this on our interview.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Apple writes on a blog post, Swift is migrating to a dedicated GitHub

⏹️ ▶️ Casey org at github.com. This migration reflects the growth and maturity of the Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey community and highlights Swift’s versatility beyond Apple’s own ecosystems. The migration to the SwiftLang organization

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will be phased over the coming weeks and months. Initially, the SwiftLang organization will include foundational elements of the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Swift project, such as compiler and core tools, standard libraries and core APIs, samples, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey swift.org website, and official clients, drivers, and other packages.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, since the dawn of Swift, it has been presented with the whole world domination joke I made in the interview as

⏹️ ▶️ John a language that is good for a wide range of things, and Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t want it to just be, oh, this is the language you need to use to write for Apple’s devices. They wanted it to be

⏹️ ▶️ John a general purpose programming language that everybody can use. Now, their number one priority has

⏹️ ▶️ John been making it work for Apple’s devices. So it’s a 10 year old language, and a lot of the effort

⏹️ ▶️ John in those 10 years has been spent to make it good for programming Apple’s platforms, which makes sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John But during that time, there’s been server-side Swift, there’s been Swift on Linux, there’s been attempts to evangelize

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift outside the Apple ecosystem. And all of those efforts have run into

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of stumbling blocks of saying, well, but, you know, our

⏹️ ▶️ John foundation isn’t the same that you ship with, that Apple ships with its platform, so we have to have our own alternate

⏹️ ▶️ John version of it, or the server side stuff is a little bit weird, and it’s clear that Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John heart isn’t into it, and the Linux version has a bunch of gaps in interoperability

⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, that don’t exist on Apple’s platforms. And if you keep chasing these

⏹️ ▶️ John things down, at the very root, it’s like, Swift is, it’s an open source project, but it’s at

⏹️ ▶️ John github.com slash Apple. That’s where it is. This is an Apple project. And yes, you allow

⏹️ ▶️ John people to use it on Linux and we could fork it because it’s open source or whatever, but people

⏹️ ▶️ John just didn’t have faith that Apple was serious about the idea of this being a language

⏹️ ▶️ John that is, as general purpose, as C. C has a standards body and has

⏹️ ▶️ John committees adding features to it and C++ or whatever, but no one company owns

⏹️ ▶️ John C, right? And again, even though Swift is open source, say, well, nobody owns it, it’s open source. If Apple ever goes

⏹️ ▶️ John evil, just fork it or whatever. But no one has the staff or the desire or the ability to

⏹️ ▶️ John keep developing Swift outside of Apple. And so moving the language out of Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John area into what I assume will be a different legal entity, a different governing system, or

⏹️ ▶️ John at least a different GitHub organization, granted, the Swift core team is still staffed by Apple employees

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that. So it’s not as if Apple is giving Swift away to someone

⏹️ ▶️ John else who’s going to parent it from now on, it will still be Apple driving this with their money and their employees.

⏹️ ▶️ John But this is an important, both symbolic and practical step to show Apple’s dedication 10

⏹️ ▶️ John years in to finally saying, no, we’re actually serious about Swift, as they said

⏹️ ▶️ John in one of the slides, replacing C++. Not replacing C++ on Apple’s platforms, replacing

⏹️ ▶️ John C++, period, everywhere, someday, maybe.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and then we got through almost everything we wanted to in the interview

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Holly and Ben, but one of the major things, perhaps the only major thing that we didn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a chance to talk to them about, but we really wanted to, was Swift testing. So we were talking,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess a couple episodes ago, about how we really would love to see XC test

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of go the way of the Dodo, and Swift testing is the new hotness baby, and And it looks pretty good

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least at a glance.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, you can, it’s an open source thing. It’s been out for a while, it was out before WWC. I could not remember for

⏹️ ▶️ John the life of me which one of the several testing frameworks it was. I should have just guessed the most obvious name, which is Swift-Testing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Glad to see that happening. It does use macros, and macros are still a little bit slow

⏹️ ▶️ John in Xcode, but maybe next year they’ll fix that.

HomeKit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, HomeKit, you can now pick your preferred HomeKit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hub. Reading from The Verge, Apple Home users can rejoice over an update

⏹️ ▶️ Casey discovered in the first iOS 18 beta, the option to choose a quote preferred home hub quote.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This fixes the problem of your smart home deciding to run over Wi Fi through a HomePod when there’s a perfectly good Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using Ethernet sitting right there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Hallelujah. How long has this taken? Yep. Like, like HomeKit has always been

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you don’t have to worry about it. We’ll intelligently pick the right thing. But very often in your home,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if you’re a tech nerd, which one of your devices has the best network connection and the best

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware. And if it’s Apple stuff, most of the time, that’s the Apple TV. If you have a recent Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John it has the highest chance of being plugged into Ethernet because it has an Ethernet port if you bought the expensive one.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you keep buying a new one every year, the processor does occasionally get better. So no, I don’t want my

⏹️ ▶️ John original HomePod to be my home

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco on

⏹️ ▶️ John Wi-Fi. Right, the Apple TV is always plugged in. My Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV is always going to sleep or whatever. But I don’t, just, yes, please, I’m going to, I’m going to designate my Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV as my home GitHub and I hope this improves matters.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep.

CarPlay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s talk CarPlay, another one of Marco’s favorite things. There are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new CarPlay features. These are detailed on a MacRumors post, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we will link in the show notes. There are contact photos and messages. I don’t think it ever occurred to me that that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a thing until I read this. And I was like, holy crap, that’s not a thing, is it? So here we are.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s very exciting. You’ll get silent mode improvements. You can now choose to have silent mode

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on your iPhone, turn immediately turn and automatically turn on or off when the device is connected to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey CarPlay. So that’s cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John Speaking of that, I again, I haven’t driven my wife’s car, so I’m not that familiar with this, but like, yeah, I always

⏹️ ▶️ John have my phone on silent. I mean, the little silent switches in the silent mode. And sometimes I forget

⏹️ ▶️ John that that means that like most apps will not make noise. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John I watched YouTube on it and YouTube ignores the silent switch and just plays audio. But sometimes I’ll play something.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, why isn’t this making any sound? and it’s because it’s honoring the silent thing. So if you have the silent switch turned on, as a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John people do with their iPhones, and you connect to CarPlay, does your phone refuse to make sound through

⏹️ ▶️ John the car speakers?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It doesn’t do like, you know, bloop, when you send a text message, for example. It just sends it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s the best I can think of.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so what this would do is say, you can leave that switch to silent, but if you set the setting, what it would do is when

⏹️ ▶️ John you connect to CarPlay, it would be as if you had switched the switch to not silent and you’d hear the bloops?

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think that’s correct. It is hard for me to parse this, but I believe that to be correct. And like another

⏹️ ▶️ Casey example is, I think generally speaking, and this could be my own settings, like my own

⏹️ ▶️ Casey focus modes and whatever. So I might be accidentally lying to you. But like another example is, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think there’s an incoming text message tone, right? Well, if you’re in silent. So you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see the little banner at the bottom of the CarPlay screen, but there won’t be the, you know, it’s the standard ding or whatever you happen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have your text message set to, if you have yourself in silent mode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, color filters can help individuals with color blindness to differentiate colors in the CarPlay interface.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Voice control allows you to control CarPlay entirely with Siri voice commands through a connected iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sound recognition is expanding to CarPlay to provide notifications for driving related sounds such as car horns and sirens.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then there was a whole session about next-gen CarPlay. Now I haven’t had a chance to watch this yet, but a lot of people that had,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we saw at WWDC, were kind of punchy about it, and I’m not 100% clear as to why,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I think, John, you have some notes for me to read. So here we go. Next-generation CarPlay will be highly customizable,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey allowing automakers to tailor the design of the system to uniquely match their vehicles. So far, so good. Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey revealed a variety of different design options and layouts that will be available to automakers. Automakers will be able to show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey custom notifications on next-generation CarPlay. Apple’s website continues to say that the first vehicles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with next-generation CarPlay will arrive in 2024, but it has yet to provide a more specific time frame,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it did not provide any time-related updates in its WWDC sessions. Daniel Pritchard writes, it’s 20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey minutes of an Apple designer in a white room telling you esteemed automaker UI designer how Apple will generously let

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you quote, customize your gauges and infotainment. Example, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use any font as long as it’s Apple’s one SF family, which has variable weights

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and metrics. So that’s fine, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I don’t know how Apple still has not figured out what would make car makers happy.

⏹️ ▶️ John They only know what would make Apple happy. Like, you can choose any variation of a single font.

⏹️ ▶️ John Should be a non-starter. We’re going to car companies and saying, you can customize it. Now, I know Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t want people to make their interfaces ugly, but have they seen a car? Car makers demand to

⏹️ ▶️ John be allowed to make their interfaces ugly, or use whatever font is like corny

⏹️ ▶️ John looking to Apple, but fits with like the Jeep brand or whatever. Not the GM is doing CarPlay, but you know. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know. I don’t know how this is gonna work out for, I mean, I still keep waiting for those next generation CarPlay

⏹️ ▶️ John cars to arrive. Surely there’d be, like, there’s always somebody, like the singular of the car world, right? Singularity.

⏹️ ▶️ John Who’s like, we are not the market leader. We can differentiate ourselves by

⏹️ ▶️ John doing what Apple wants when no one else would do it. But yeah, I’m going to watch the session. I’m going to see

⏹️ ▶️ John how bad it really is. But yeah, people were watching it. They were, I don’t know if they’re people in the audio industry or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the vibe seemed to be that Apple still wasn’t quite getting what the car industry wants from them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t see how they could. It just, it seems so far from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and what they could tolerate and the control and relationships they’d like to have compared to what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the automakers wanna do. I can’t see almost any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco automaker wanting to sign up for this. Like I think Apple is very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco type A with their designs and the automakers tend to be very type A with their design and tend to be pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco incompatible designs And more of just, I can’t imagine anybody willing to be, willing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to give up that level of control. So I would expect this to have no significant effect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the adoption of this next-gen CarPlay.

⏹️ ▶️ John I knew this as I was saying it, but just to save myself. Jeep, Chrysler, whatever, that’s Stellantis, not GM, sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I meant to correct you, and then I got sidetracked, so thank you. All right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything else for follow-up?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we did a great job.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m proud of us. Thank you to our sponsor this week, Squarespace, and thank you to our members

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who support us directly. We do an ATP Overtime segment exclusive to members every week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is a bonus topic that we do after all the rest of the show, exclusively for members.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This week’s overtime is Apple’s Blue Ocean Revisited. This

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is relevant to a topic we talked about with John’s blog post called Apple’s Blue Ocean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a few months back. We’re gonna revisit that with some updates. So you can hear that by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco joining at atheby.fm slash join, and we will talk to you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ John And you can find the show notes at atp.fm

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Mastodon, you can follow them at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, check podcast so long.

Neutral: The Pebble

Chapter Neutral: The Pebble image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So when I used to travel for work, you know, for WWDC among many other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things, the most recent time that I had been in WWDC was in 2019.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And at that point, Michaela was like a year, year and a half old. It was a burden

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me to be gone, right? Like Aaron can handle it, but it’s a burden. Now, five years later with Michaela

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just having graduated kindergarten, it’s supposed to be considerably easier.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s supposed to be almost not really, I’m not even sure that anyone would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have even noticed I was gone. Mikayla was doing a camp, doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just a little like half day camp every day this week. And so Monday, we are upstairs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at Apple Park, you know, getting our breakfast, which I don’t recall if we talked about this the other day, but it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually very tasty. And you know, I’m getting to see all of my friends. It’s the first time I’d seen John in five years.

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t recall if we talked about this? It was the last show.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, that’s right. We talked about it a whole segment. This is a

⏹️ ▶️ John new low in your inability to remember what we talked about on the show.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, this is pretty good. We talked about food. We talked about that. I forgot about the breakfast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part. Yes, you’re right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Okay. Anyway. Go on. All right. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco the point is,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sitting there with John and other John and Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey underscore and a bunch of other people and it felt so good to see all of these people I hadn’t seen in so long. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I get a phone call from Aaron, which is not that it’s not allowed or anything like that. And it’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey she knew that I was going to have a very busy day and I was going to be doing a lot of different things. And so for her

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to call me was very alarming and unusual. She says, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just picked up Michaela from camp. My car just died. You don’t want to hear that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John And remind us what car this is and how old it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is a 2017 Volvo XC90, which has somewhere around 40, 45,000 miles on it. That you purchased new.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we purchased new and have maintained as per

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Volvo specifications every moment since. So she says, yeah, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I heard something that something was like stuck in the wheel or something like there’s a thunk, thunk, thunk sound. So I pulled over,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looked around the car, didn’t see anything, let it, you know, turned it off and let it sit for a couple minutes, turn it back on. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey started to go and then the car just straight up died. And she sent a video of her cranking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. I showed John and Marco and a handful of other people. And it was definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the motor was trying to turn over. Like the internals of the motor were

⏹️ ▶️ Casey moving without question, but it was not actually like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey properly turning over and operating under its own power.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was the cylinders weren’t firing. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey right. I want

⏹️ ▶️ John to claim partial credit to, for my attempted diagnosis based on a phone video

⏹️ ▶️ John with a bad audio of saying it sounded like it was something having to do with the belts because

⏹️ ▶️ John the starter was turning, like the starter was rotating and it was causing some parts of the engine

⏹️ ▶️ John to rotate, but there was no, you know, no explosions happening in the cylinders as far

⏹️ ▶️ John as we could hear, but it was turning and turning. And she said there was screeching noises and I’m like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John belts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is what John theorized. And certainly the electrics were all working just fine. It was something mechanical.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then I called Volvo from California and said, hi, I’m sitting there standing in California right now. My wife

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is going to be coming in with her car back of a tow truck. Can you take care of her please do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something? You know, I call Volvo I think on Tuesday and they’re like, Hey, you know, we just haven’t had time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get to it, which I get. I mean, we dropped this on them unexpectedly. And, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I call I hadn’t heard from anything from them Wednesday. And I’m starting to get concerned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because the going theory from Volvo, which I did not understand, but what Volvo said to Aaron, and she related to me was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it was a starter related problem. As John had already said, we could hear the car trying to turn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over to a degree in the video. So it didn’t seem to me to be a starter. But I mean, I’m no professional mechanics.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m like, okay, whatever you say, but I’m seeing it’s now Wednesday, late afternoon,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Eastern Time, and I haven’t heard from Volvo about what the heck is going on. And we’re supposed to be taking that car

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of town this coming weekend. And so I’m thinking to myself, if there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a part that they need, we are bumping up against not being able to get the part

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and get it repaired before

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John we need to go.

⏹️ ▶️ John Keep that thought here. If there’s a part that they need. There may be a part that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need. There might be just one part. So I call Volvo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and again, they’re very, very kind. And he says, all right, so here’s what happened.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A pebble seems to have landed itself inside one of the tensioners

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the serpentine belt. So the tensioners are like the pulleys effectively. And a pebble

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got in there, which caused the serpentine belt to eventually sever and fastened

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And actually we were just at Volvo yesterday and they handed me the serpentine belt to look at and it just severed right in half and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know how, but it did. And these things are thick. Like these are really designed not to do that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but nevertheless. So the serpentine belt severed, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in and of itself is a problem, but it is a fixable problem. He, but he said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then, and I’m like, oh, it caused a hole in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey housing of timing belt and then shredded the timing belt.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco God.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey At this point, I know we’re f**ked. Because if you’re not familiar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with what a timing belt does, and John, correct me when you’re ready, but a timing belt is what keeps the internal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bits of the motor working the way they’re supposed to. So if you think about it, like if you put

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up a fist, right, and you’re moving your fist up and down, that’s like a piston in a car engine, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, above your fist are valves, which are other pieces of metal. And the timing belt makes sure sure that never the two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shall meet. So if the piston is all the way up, then the valve is also up. If the piston

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is down, then the valve can lower into the cylinder so it can let in gas or let or in air, let out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exhaust, etc. If your timing belt or in some cars chain gets messed up,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the two can meet and that means your engine is destroyed.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, there’s basically a delicate ballet of metal going on inside your engines with lots of parts moving

⏹️ ▶️ John and they have to move exactly in unison with each other. So no parts that are not supposed to hit each other

⏹️ ▶️ John will hit. That is what your timing system does. It is super duper important to have your engine correctly

⏹️ ▶️ John timed. If it’s off by a little bit, it can run badly. If the timing belt doesn’t exist,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a catastrophe. Because remember, there’s explosions happening in your engine,

⏹️ ▶️ John shoving the metal parts up and down very forcefully. And if that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not done at the right time with all the other parts, now you have metal parts being shot at each

⏹️ ▶️ John other using explosions, which is the same thing that propels bullets out of guns, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not good for your engine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Certainly not. So at this point, I lean forward, hands

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my forehead, and Erin looks at me like a ghost, and she says, oh no, the not very nice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gentleman at Volvo says, the engine is a catastrophic loss. We’re going to need to replace it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you just need one part, Casey. The engine. Just one part. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco engine is the part that you need. That is correct. That sounds important.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is an important part of the car.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I asked, well, that’s like $10,000 plus, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And he says, I haven’t gotten an estimate yet, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yes, it is. Oh, OK.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So fast forward a little bit of time, and suffice to say, the engine shot,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we will need to replace it. I don’t know exactly what the car is worth, But the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey estimate for the parts alone for a full engine replacement were

⏹️ ▶️ Casey north of $14,000. Then he said the labor is between 25 and 30 hours at $175 an hour.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s roughly another $5,000. So we’re looking at $20,000 for this thing to be repaired.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s the best case scenario, right? I guess we could opt to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get a used motor, and they apparently have some place up in Erie, New York that does a really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good job of putting together like full used replacement crate motors. And that would be like $15,000 all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in instead of 20,000, which is better, but not that different. You might as well get a new one at that point. Right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco so-

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And

⏹️ ▶️ John what the car rebuilding YouTube channels that I watch would do, because this is what they always do, is

⏹️ ▶️ John they would take that engine and they would throw away the parts that are dead, like many of the cylinders, most of the valves,

⏹️ ▶️ John the entire top end of the engine, all sorts of stuff like that. But they would salvage all the other parts, all the other

⏹️ ▶️ John things that are bolted onto the engine. Anything that wasn’t broken, they would salvage. And they would buy

⏹️ ▶️ John the other parts, or they’d buy a used engine, and take the parts from the broken engine, and

⏹️ ▶️ John stick them on to parts from a less broken engine, and build a Frankenstein’s monster

⏹️ ▶️ John conglomeration of working parts, and used parts, and new parts to build a new

⏹️ ▶️ John working engine. And the reason they do that is because they literally make money from their labor, as opposed to

⏹️ ▶️ John having to pay hundreds of dollars per hour, as Casey has to do for this. Because they are making entertainment

⏹️ ▶️ John from repairing engines. But yeah, if it was my engine, I would want a brand new one. And if I couldn’t get a brand

⏹️ ▶️ John new one, a used one with similar mileage probably seems fine. But I think the most fascinating,

⏹️ ▶️ John as someone who watches tons and tons of hours of car rebuilding channels, the most fascinating thing about this story, and I think everyone you

⏹️ ▶️ John told this to, is that I’ve never heard of that happening. Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes. Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Sounded like your iPad and the windshield. Anyway, I saw a picture of it. You sent a picture, maybe you’ll put it in

⏹️ ▶️ John the show notes. You may be wondering how could this happen? Like the tensioner, it’s like a little

⏹️ ▶️ John pulley, like a little disc that rotates on an axis, right? And it’s got

⏹️ ▶️ John streaks in it, like fins, right? Around the little wheel. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the perfectly sized pebble, like a pebble, like a one in a million pebble, got

⏹️ ▶️ John into this engine from the road, because there’s pebbles on the road all the time. such that it wedged itself

⏹️ ▶️ John between two of the metal strakes, or I can’t tell if they’re metal or plastic, of this little wheel.

⏹️ ▶️ John It would have to be a pedal pebble, you know, going at just the right time, at just the right angle, bouncing

⏹️ ▶️ John around off the road surface, into this engine, and wedging itself exactly between these

⏹️ ▶️ John two little fins on this wheel and getting stuck in there. And then essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John serving as like a diamond cutter to shred your

⏹️ ▶️ John belts as it rotated, this little hard, you know, nugget of rock, because it was like a little,

⏹️ ▶️ John little like white piece of like quartz or whatever, going around again and again and again until it just totally shredded

⏹️ ▶️ John your belt. As they say on Seinfeld, one in a million shot, Doc. That is some bad

⏹️ ▶️ John luck. That is world class

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad luck. It’s really, it’s astonishing and also depressing.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I think he just put it in the chat room, so I think it’ll be in the show notes. Just look at this. Just think of what has to happen

⏹️ ▶️ John for this little tiny, because this This is not the only engine, I can tell you, this is not the only engine

⏹️ ▶️ John to have pulleys like that on it. Every engine, every internal combustion engine has tons of these things all over

⏹️ ▶️ John it. You’re like, why don’t they cover them with plastic shielding? I mean, they’re not usually super accessible, but for the most

⏹️ ▶️ John part, you can see them and get at them in the engine, in every internal combustion car on the road, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve never heard of this happening. This is just,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wow. Is that the pebble right there that’s in the little pulley hole? Yes. It’s that little tiny,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that little tiny rectangle. Oh my god.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because it’s sticking out just a little bit and the belts are under tension. That is the belt tensioner and it is essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John rotating with the belt, slowly shredding it. Or maybe not so slowly because, you know, do the RPM

⏹️ ▶️ John calculation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, because I was wondering like how a pebble would stay in that, but yeah, it is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right between those little fins. Oh my god.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, what kind of pebble is that shape to successfully wedge itself in there? Like it’s got to be like, have like flat

⏹️ ▶️ John sides and be like, wow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If this was a plot to like how James Bond was escaping somebody chasing him, like we would say that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco completely implausible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Like nobody would

⏹️ ▶️ John ever believe. This would never happen. You can’t disable a car with a pebble. That’s stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John exactly. You can’t you can’t you can’t cause catastrophic catastrophic engine damage

⏹️ ▶️ John to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a car with a pebble. Yeah, I mean the engine grenaded itself because of a pebble. So I told Volvo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I was being deadly serious. I want that pebble. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John want the $20,000 pebble.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to put that mother f***er in a shadow box and I want that thing to be the $20,000 Pebble

⏹️ ▶️ Casey somewhere in my house because as depressing it as it is, you have to see the, like, I have to laugh at it because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just, it’s just absurd. It’s just absolutely absurd. And so we talked to Volvo about it and they were like, yeah, we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey heard of something like this happening like once, maybe twice in all of the years that they’ve serviced thousands

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of cars, all in all Volvos basically have the, I mean, it’s not literally the same engine, but all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Volvos from last like 15 or no, I’m sorry for the last like seven or eight years have effectively the same engine. And they’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, this has happened maybe one other time, maybe. Um, and when, when I called it into our insurance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey company, uh, who happens to be Allstate and I gotta tell you, I’m not feeling like I’m in good hands right now, but that’s neither here nor there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, when I called it into Allstate, they were like, wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what? What?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sorry. It sounds like a great insurance fraud

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scheme. It right. But I mean, I’m not the one who can trust me. I do not want to defraud

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Allstate of a new motor. I’d rather have a functional car. Uh, but anyways, so, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’ll see what Allstate says. There’s going to be an adjuster that’s going to go look at it and you know, we’ll see what happens, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s, I just feel absolutely so incredibly terrible for Erin. Cause here it was, this was the first work trip trip

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or first WWDC trip anyway, that was supposed to be fairly easy. And on day

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, her car catastrophically dies. And then when we’re, I’m on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my way home from the airport, when we get the news. Oh, you thought it was just a starter. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, it’s going to be an entirely new motor. And that also brings up the question, it raises the question,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is this going to be totaled? Because depending on how much the car is worth, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s worth enough that they aren’t going to total it, but they might just total the damn thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s fine, I guess, but certainly not what we had on our bingo card for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this week. And we’re not going to find out about it for another week or two and now we have to rent a car to get to our vacation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a couple of days. It’s just a mess. So with all that in mind, atp.fm.com.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, man, I mean Aaron, is she

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay like not thinking this is her fault because this is absolutely in no possible way her fault.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey She’s blaming herself some but I have been extremely, figuratively

⏹️ ▶️ Casey loud about the fact that you could not have done this. It was an act of God. There’s nothing you could have done. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did nothing wrong. You, you, the only thing she did wrong was that she sent me a text to ask, can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I call you instead of just frigging calling me immediately? Because that’s how kind she is. She, I was, I was a little perturbed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that she didn’t just immediately call me, but, uh, but no, other than that, I mean, it’s just, it was an unbelievably, it was unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad luck, but here we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco are. I mean, literally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Volvo people, I kid you not, the Volvo people said to us, you should play the lottery because your luck is incredible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s just bad in this case, unfortunately. Your luck is incredible in the wrong direction. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, man. I mean, you couldn’t do this if you tried. Like, it’s just wow.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you tried to search the ground for just the right pebble, find the best one, reach into the engine,

⏹️ ▶️ John and shove it in there, the pebble would just fall out because you didn’t get it down to the fraction of a millimeter. Like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John couldn’t manually find a pebble that would fit like this and stick it in with your hand, let alone throw

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Like, because again, this wasn’t stuck in by hand. This was flung from the room. So

⏹️ ▶️ John find a pebble that’s just right and throw it into the engine such that it gets stuck

⏹️ ▶️ John well enough into the little thing to shred the belt. You’d be there for the rest of your life trying to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, couldn’t agree more, but here we are. I’m really sad about it. Like all kidding aside,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m really, really sad about it because it is a great car, despite this story. Like it’s been mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bulletproof. It’s been very good to us. I have a couple of minor complaints about it, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all in all, I really, really like that car. And to be honest, if it was totaled, we would probably get a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lightly used XC90 tomorrow because we really do like the car. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it occurred to me as I was thinking, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? I was thinking to myself, I really am not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looking at spending $60,000, $70,000 on a new XC90. But then it occurred to me, well, the reason

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we bought this one new was because CarPlay was new, or at least in this model. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I insisted on CarPlay. And there really wasn’t a used market at the time we bought.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But now, now there’s a robust used market. And it’s not absolutely bananas prices like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was a year or two back. So I think if we were to replace it, we would get a 2020 or 2021 XC90 and call it a day.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And they’re actually reasonably affordable if you get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one with 20,000 miles on it or something like that. But hopefully, it won’t come to that. Hopefully, we’ll get Allstate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to buy us a new motor and the absurdly many thousands of dollars of labor to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey put it in.

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