569: Do Grasshoppers Have Tongues?
11 Jan 2024Casey is ordering Apple Vision Pro on day one, and everyone knows it except Casey.
Episode Description:
- Pre-show: Dad Dreams
- Follow-up:
- New watch bands will actually be… cases? (via Videoalex)
- Time-shifting was successful
- OLED iPad Pros will also break the bank
- Apple 🤝 AWS
- People… write answers for Alexa‽ 🤯
- Incase 🤝 Microsoft
- Vision Pro launches 2 February
- Vision Pro will have 16GB RAM
- YouTubers will get two demos
- Apple’s “Get Ready” ad
- Apple is very particular about how you represent “Vision Pro”
- Apple is offering Vision Pro demos
- Apple Vision Pro focal distance?
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Chapters
- Redundant power
- Continuous watch bands
- The Phish video
- OLED iPad Pros: 💸
- LLM progress
- Alexa Answers
- Incase making MS peripherals
- Sponsor: Trade Coffee
- Vision Pro is imminent
- visionOS app rules
- Ending theme
- Post-show
Redundant power
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So a giant storm blew through here last night and so I was up all night dealing with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I’m very tired. I will say so, you know, a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco few like systems I had in place ended up working very well. One of those is I have solar panels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and power wall batteries and they back up like some of the outlets and stuff in the house
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, critical stuff like the fridge and, you know, a couple outlets, a couple of lights, you know, not not the whole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco HVAC system because because it would be way too much power for that. But it worked perfectly. Like we had a huge
⏹️ ▶️ Marco power outage for, well, I mean, not huge by disaster standards.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was like a four hour power outage and it worked perfectly fine. I did learn, I don’t know if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a thing, I have all my wifi gear, of course that’s backed up because that’s the most important.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It goes fridge and then all of the networking gear. And I had a UPS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the networking gear as well. Like the outlet that it plugs into was backed up by the solar battery thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the, I had a UPS there just cause I had an extra UPS and I was like, I’ll put it up there, give myself a little more time if I need it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And for whatever reason, when the AC power switches from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the grid to the solar battery backup, the UPS thinks there’s been a power outage and doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco take the power and switches into like, I’m off mode and starts supplying power.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the UPS eventually then ran out and died and turned off. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though there was power at the outlet, like why? What happened there?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is it having something like fake grounding or something? Like what could that be? Undervolted maybe?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, that’s interesting. Maybe like if it only outputs like 100. Maybe like
⏹️ ▶️ John a little, you know, the UPS is super sensitive to having, you know, whatever it expects the voltage to be and the
⏹️ ▶️ John power wall. I don’t know how these things work, but I imagine maybe the power wall actually supplies a little bit less than the actual grid.
⏹️ ▶️ John Or a little bit more. I mean, either way, like, you know, if it’s not exact.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, okay. I’ll plug it in next time and I’ll let you know.
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay, is there a manual button on the UPS you can push to say, hey, power’s back, start using that? Because I know my UPSs
⏹️ ▶️ John flip out if there’s even like a little flicker, but they realize pretty quickly
⏹️ ▶️ John that, oh, power is actually back on now and I can get off of battery and they switch back.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’re fortunate that we don’t actually have extremely frequent power outages, so I’m not really a power user,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no pun intended, of my UPSs, like I hardly ever need to do anything with them so if there’s any kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like weird options or buttons or gestures or things I could press to fix it, I probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We had the same storm blow through here yesterday, and I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying it was quite as bad here as it was there, but it was bad for us anyway. And we had our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey power flicker a few times. And many years ago, my parents
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had a Honda inverter generator in a big one, like, you know, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on wheels because it’s not the sort of thing you can carry, right? And I forget exactly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey how many watts it is, but it’s big. It’s physically large and it can power, it might even be able to power
⏹️ ▶️ Casey HVAC, maybe, but that would probably be a stretch. Well, anyways,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they eventually put a generac on their house and they long-term loaned us this generator
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the power flickered like three times. And I’m thinking to myself, oh, do I have to get the generator out? Is this the time? Which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is both like, ugh, and also, yes, this moment has finally come!
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is like every dad really wants to use the gear that we have. Like, that’s just a thing. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have all this gear. We kind of want an occasional need to use it. Like, you know, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to live somewhere with super unreliable power, but like it is nice to have like one blackout a year where it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey yes, I get to use all my cool stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s such a pain to get it hooked up and whatnot. And like we have a bespoke generator
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hookup right by the fuse box. We have a generator interlock in the fuse box as you are supposed to do blah, blah, blah. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just a pain in the tuchus. And so I was mostly happy that we didn’t have to deal with it. And the, and the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one time I have used it in the several years that it’s lived here, um, the one time I have used it, I forget what the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey situation was. We lost power for like an hour. And then you play the game of like, you don’t want to put too much
⏹️ ▶️ Casey gasoline in the thing, cause it’s really not, I think this actually might be fuel injected, but especially for carbureted things, you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to leave gas in there cause it’ll gum up the carburetor. And so you’re putting in like little teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bits of gas, just enough to keep you going. so you don’t have to run the generator for 18 hours, you know, after
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the power comes back, just to get the gas out of it. And so it’s just, it’s the sort of stress that dads
⏹️ ▶️ Casey live for, to your point, but it’s still a moment of stress, nevertheless.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco To be clear, your gas-powered version of this sounds awful to me, because I know that’s a very common thing, but to me,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like… You’re so… the worst. I know. You’re the worst. I’m not even going to argue that right now, but that, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the idea of this using gas sounds horrendous to me, because you’re right, because all of the stuff you have to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco deal with, Like, you know, for me, if we have a, if we have a power outage that lasts 10 minutes, I just have power,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, I mean, to these handful of outlets, like it just works. Like I don’t have to think about it. I don’t have to go,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, haul out a thing and, you know, start it, hook it up, start it up, dump a bunch of gas in it, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hear it all that time. Cause you know, batteries are awfully quiet in operation. Um, so it’s, it’s a very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey experience. That’s true. But the difference between you and me is that if we had like a multi-week outage.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re f***ed. MARK No, I’m not. I have solar topping it off every day. I can go longer than you can. STEVEN
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Damn it. I thought I had you on that one. MARK Nope. STEVEN All right,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll allow it. Well, what if it’s really, really rainy for a really long time, Marko? What then? MARK
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, there’s still light in the sky. Like, maybe not as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey much, but there’s still light.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey STEVEN Truth be told, I genuinely, as much as I’m snarking, I don’t know the first thing about how well solar works in anything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but, but like bright sunlight. And for all I know, you get like 95% of the power generation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even when it’s cloudy, I have no idea.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, well, so in my experience, like, I mean, it depends on the season, of course, like how many just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours of daylight you even have in a day. So like, you know, in January, even if it’s a very sunny day,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s way fewer daylight hours than you have like in August. That’s true. But just for reference,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like on a really great day in the summer, my panels might make like 90 kilowatt
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours. And on a really terrible day in January, they’ll still make like 20.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s not like nothing. It’s not a ton, of course. But that’s a pretty… that’s still a decent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amount of power, considering it’s free, and you know, so… Obviously there’s a lot of asterisks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on that free, but like, It’s it’s substantially easier to get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than you know having to go get gas somewhere and everything
Continuous watch bands
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s alright. Alright, we should probably get this show on the road. Let’s do some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey follow-up. Video Alex writes, I was listening to your discussion on the watch bands breaking compatibility.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think the new bands will most likely be one surface with a clasp or perhaps bracelet style with magnetic
⏹️ ▶️ Casey section to hold the watch unit to it. Surely a pass-through hole for sensors etc in the band. The
⏹️ ▶️ Casey best example I can think of is Swatch has a system like this or had a system like this excuse me in the 80s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 90s which you can see in this eBay listing and we will put that in the show notes,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I get what we’re going for here, but I don’t know. It’s just, this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t smell right to me and I can’t put my finger on why.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. The only reason I can see a motivation for this idea is like, we need more surface area for the magnetic
⏹️ ▶️ John attachment rumor to be true. So if, if, you know, people should look at the link that we put in, but it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, if you had just a continuous strap that goes around your wrist, there’s no watch on it, it’s just a strap. Right. but that strap,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, slips through a sort of holder that the watch then magnetically
⏹️ ▶️ John snaps into. Right. And so you have more surface area for the magnets because your your your watch is
⏹️ ▶️ John magnetically attaching like vertically onto the strap. The straps aren’t pulling on the sides of the watch.
⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s got a lot of things going against it. I mean, it’s difficult not to make that raise the watch higher up off your
⏹️ ▶️ John wrist, which is the last thing that they want. It really limits the options fashion wise.
⏹️ ▶️ John I just you wouldn’t you know, you don’t want to strap underneath your watch and I think I’m not sure how
⏹️ ▶️ John much more surface area We give you unless it class the outside of the watch like this watch thing does which looks really ugly
⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m gonna put my money against this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t so there’s a number of problems with this theory So number one as John said it raises the watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off your wrist more so it makes it effectively thicker You don’t want that and you can see another this is all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you don’t have this isn’t theoretical the entire rest of the watch world has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gone nuts over the last like decade or so for something called a NATO strap. It’s exactly this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like a continuous loop of fabric that goes under the watch and the watch sits on top of part of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the strap. And it does this. It pushes the watch up. It makes it thicker. It’s a certain look.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It works for certain watches. But all the watches that it works on are thin. And the Apple watch,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the watch body is kind of, you know, medium thickness for a watch. It’s what is it about 12 millimeters? But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then it has the big bulge in the bottom. It’s like You could kind of make it work, but I think it would still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco raise up off the wrist more than not doing this. And then also, if it’s attached by magnets, remember magnets hold very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco strong straight on, but very weakly to sideways motions. If that attached
⏹️ ▶️ Marco magnetically head on, it would very easily get knocked off the strap with any kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco side impact to it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the Swatch one that they show the picture of has like sidewalls to essentially mechanically prevent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco movement. Yeah, the swatch one is more like a like a like a protective case for the watch almost like it goes all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John around Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean if you had sidewalls, they wouldn’t need to go up that high You know You just need them to go up high enough to prevent movement
⏹️ ▶️ John laterally and then the magnets would prevent the up and down movement
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But see and see then I can’t see apple doing that either because then first of all that would kind of constrain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how large the watch body is and what shape it is, um, you know based on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever the strap ecosystem has has been working with so far and Even like the size
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the sensor hole. What if they want to change the sensors on a future model of watch, but they won’t fit in the hole?
⏹️ ▶️ John It would be like making a bunch of keyboards for the iPad that needed to be exactly the size for each individual iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so yeah, I don’t see them going in that kind of direction. And I don’t, and I think if they did, it would be worse. and that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably why they won’t.
The Phish video
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, I meant to bring this up originally and then it slipped my mind because I didn’t put it in the official
⏹️ ▶️ Casey show notes I only put it in the ones that we eventually released to people. But anyways, your time shifting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a success I thought we should call this out that you’re time shifting Into
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some degree if you had just done the standard Marco slash Casey approach of procrastinating would have solved this problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, I was trying to time shift the fish concert And that I would that had happened
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it turns out they just released the the meat of it for free on YouTube
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So what do you mean by the meat of it? I’m not trying to be funny. I’m genuinely asking the meat stick of it, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know So no it was there was there were it was a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco concert with three sets and the the really like You know important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco New Year’s Eve like historic segment of it was only kind of one and a half of those sets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so what they released was that part? I say like the the big like the big story that all the fans have been waiting for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be told in this way for like 30 years and so anyway, that’s that that is the part that was released
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was not the whole concert, but it was the most important part.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Gotcha Well, anyway, we will put a link in the show notes in case you want to punish yourself I’m sorry in case
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you want to participate in this sort of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so I posted I’m acid on it like earlier like yes they released it and the I’ve gotten some amazing responses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because like people are going to watch it who have no idea because here’s the thing like it it’s basically like like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a an acted out musical of these all these this whole story that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like ancient fish lore if you’re not a fish fan if this would look ridiculously
⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird and I respect anyone who’s actually like trying to get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into this as their first experience of this band because that’s really diving into the deep
⏹️ ▶️ Marco end and I applaud you if you could make it through it without just being like this is weird and turning
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it off this is not a great introduction to the band as a result, but it is an adventurous one. So if that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what you’re looking for, go for it. But it’s going to be very strange to people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are not already dedicated fish fans.
OLED iPad Pros: 💸
⏹️ ▶️ Casey OLED iPad Pros could start from $1,500, rising to as much as $2,000+.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is according to MacRumors. MacRumors writes, this is the second time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Korean source has claimed that Apple’s new iPad Pros will be vastly more expensive than the company’s existing models. Last March,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a report by the Elec estimated prices starting at $1,500 and $1,800 for the 18 and 13-inch models, respectively.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey If accurate, these price hikes could make the new 11-inch device over 80% more expensive than the existing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 11-inch iPad Pro with LED Liquid Retina Display, which starts at $800. As for the 13-inch model, assuming a base configuration costing $1,800,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it would be around 60% more expensive than the current 12.9-inch iPad Pro with Mini-LED Liquid Retina XDR
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Display, which starts at $1,100. Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nelly, I’m already really uncomfortable with the potential expenditures in the next couple of weeks, but,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I’m not in the market for an iPad right now, but my word.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s a lot of it depends here. A lot of this could be storage tiering, where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe they just eliminate some of the lower storage tiers of the iPad Pros, and so it’s not quite
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an apples to apples comparison. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there could be some of that going on, but I think it really depends for me, like whether this is a good idea and whether
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the market will bear this, depends a lot on what they intend to do with the next iPad Air model.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because what we’ve seen over the last couple of years is that the iPad Air has been elevated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into many more formerly pro only features. It is still missing some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big ones. Like for me personally, the big thing it’s missing is face ID. So if they can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bring some of what makes an iPad Pro down to the iPad Air model, which again, they’ve been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on this path, that I think would free up the iPad Pro to kind of let
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it be higher end components, let it be more pricey, let it serve the high end that is there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, that leaves the large question of what high-end is there, and you know, how big that is and whether this will work or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not, but the high-end iPad market definitely exists. I don’t think it’s very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big. So it kind of makes sense for Apple to make it a more premium
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, extract more money from the people who are in it, as long as the people who are not in that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco market have other models that can serve their needs at their price points. So if they decide to kind of push the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco air a little bit higher, give it a couple of pro-only features like face ID,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that would free them up and then I don’t think this is that big of a deal because there are people who will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy a $1500, $2000 iPad. Those people exist, there just aren’t a ton of them. I don’t know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think these rumors of pricing are always suspect because pricing is the type
⏹️ ▶️ John of thing that Apple can keep very close to the vest, doesn’t need to share with anybody, can change
⏹️ ▶️ John to the last minute, it’s even easier to change than things like the name of the product.
⏹️ ▶️ John So the idea that some other, you know, I don’t know if this is a supply
⏹️ ▶️ John chain thing, but anyway, uh, sources far away from the people who are actually making the decision would know about the pricing
⏹️ ▶️ John seems strange to me. Unless of course they’re saying, look, uh, we know that these new OLED screens, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John going to put in cost X amount of dollars. And if you just apply Apple’s traditional margins, that means the final product has to be this
⏹️ ▶️ John much and less Apple’s going to take a hit to their margins. But I don’t think they gave that to kind of supporting evidence of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John based on the cost of the screen, these are going to have to be X amount more than
⏹️ ▶️ John the old ones, especially like an 80% price increase. I know the old lids are probably more expensive
⏹️ ▶️ John than the LCDs, but and they’re, they’re also probably the most expensive thing in the product
⏹️ ▶️ John because, you know, the, the SOC for all its importance is much less expensive than that screen. I still
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t think it would justify an 80% price increase based on parts. So then then I was like, okay, well, the parts don’t justify
⏹️ ▶️ John it, but then you got to go to Marco’s idea of like, oh, they’re just going up market and they’re just gonna make them more expensive. But how would they
⏹️ ▶️ John know that? That’s definitely the type of thing that Apple would not need to discuss with a large number of people. So I’m taking
⏹️ ▶️ John all this with a grain of salt, with the only exception being that, as we all know, if you just go to the top storage tier,
⏹️ ▶️ John these things cost as much as a car, no matter what, because of Apple’s magical fairy dust, diamond coated SSD prices,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? And that’s, you know, so if they offer this with an eight terabyte SSD, what is the
⏹️ ▶️ John add eight terabyte SSD prices? isn’t like $2,200 on Macs or something. That’s add $2,200 to the existing price of the iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ John So if they offer an eight terabyte iPad, yeah, it’s gonna be like five grand or something and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John stupid and sucks and we all hate it. But that could also be the source of this rumor. So when they come up, someone
⏹️ ▶️ John will go to the configurator and say, see, the rumors are right. I can configure this $2,000. Yeah, of course you can. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m holding on to hope that they don’t start at 1,500. I’ll still buy it at 1,500 to be clear, but I prefer not to
⏹️ ▶️ John because all I want is that really nice screen And a really nice 11 inch OLED screen
⏹️ ▶️ John is not really $1,500. And I know there’s an entire computer attached
⏹️ ▶️ John to it and a battery and face ID sensors and so on and so forth, but boy, that’s pushing it considering even Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ John own, you know, 27 inch monitor, 5K monitor is $1,600. I
⏹️ ▶️ John guess that’s not OLED, but still. So here’s hoping it’s not 1500 to start.
LLM progress
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anonymous writes, in my capacity as an AWS solutions architect, I’ve worked with Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey over the past two years as they leverage several of AWS’s ML services. From my experience, Apple has mostly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey been interested in smaller open source LLMs. In particular, a crucial factor for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Apple teams I was working with was always the token context window, or in other words, how
⏹️ ▶️ Casey many tokens you can fit into the prompt for an LLM. This makes sense, especially when thinking about multi-turn
⏹️ ▶️ Casey conversations with Siri, as all the previous conversations have to fit into the context window in order for Siri to keep
⏹️ ▶️ Casey track of it. In 2022, the token context windows for open source models was usually about 512 tokens.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But as with so many things in the LLM space, we saw massive progress in 2023 to the point
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where the best open source models, for example, Metaslama 2, now have a 32,000 token
⏹️ ▶️ Casey window, which corresponds to 25,000 words or between 50 and 100 pages.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey With regards to virtual assistants and the fact that LLMs are not optimized for correct answers, but for plausible sounding answers, one approach that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I found very promising when working with customers is retrieval augmented generation. This is the process of optimizing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the output of a large language model. So it references an authoritative knowledge base, for example, IMDB,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the internet, SQL databases, et cetera, outside of its training data sources before generating
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a response. The Alexa team has been working a lot with this method to ensure that questions like Michael Jackson’s age are answered correctly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can find more info on RIG here, and we’ll put a link in the show notes. And then finally, with regard
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to how LLMs work, John was correct with his description of LLMs, just predicting the next word without really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey knowing where this prediction came from. It’s equivalent to me writing an email and then someone asking me where those words come
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from, to which I would only respond, I don’t know, I guess I read a lot during my lifetime. Here’s a very good blog
⏹️ ▶️ Casey post that explains how LLMs and the various parameters to manipulate the probability distributions work. We’ll put that link in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then just as an addendum, while that post that I just mentioned is almost four years old, it still holds up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey accurately how LLMs work.
Alexa Answers
⏹️ ▶️ Casey David Webb writes, one of the reasons Alexa is so good at general knowledge questions is that there’s a whole community of people writing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey answers for these questions in return for karma points. You can find the Alexa answer site here. I had no idea
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this was a thing, and this blew my friggin’ mind.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I had no idea.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right? That’s the Amazon approach, Mechanical Turk. Yep. How do they do this?
⏹️ ▶️ John They pay a bunch of people not too much money to do it. Oh, well, do they even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pay? Oh, these are really sad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They did a sad. But do they even pay, or are they just doing it for karma?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t know what karma points are, but but so here’s the thing. These things go together because talking about the
⏹️ ▶️ John reality, retrieval, augmented generation, the idea that you have a piece of software that like looks
⏹️ ▶️ John to the side at a database of authoritative information before it goes to the
⏹️ ▶️ John LLM. It’s like, wow, that’s a clever. We talked about this before, like some way to
⏹️ ▶️ John either constrain or provide additional data that is more authoritative
⏹️ ▶️ John than just guess based on your giant soup of knowledge. But then the other route is no, don’t do that. Just pay people
⏹️ ▶️ John or just get people to figure it out. Like just get someone to look it up and put it, put into like, like essentially how does that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, retrieval augmented generation, how does that database off to the side get populated? Just
⏹️ ▶️ John have people putting in answers to questions. When did Michael Jackson die? Someone puts that in. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now that gets, that is part of that authoritative database that the software looks up before it goes
⏹️ ▶️ John to the LLM, because that’s what you really need. Like for IMDB and stuff, you’ve already got that data, but for just
⏹️ ▶️ John like, what’s a thing that somebody might ask? I don’t know. All the U S presidents, their,
⏹️ ▶️ John their ages and birthplaces, uh, sports results in popular sports for the past
⏹️ ▶️ John several decades, uh, famous people like, and so just to generate all
⏹️ ▶️ John those facts and put them into sort of a structured form. So you can look aside at that information.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, the Amazon approach to that is get people to do it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s bananas. I mean, I, I’m not surprised as soon as I read it, I was like, what? Oh yeah. Okay, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco still. All right. So a selection of questions from this site. Does white bread have bleach in it?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What does the name supreme mean and my favorite what’s open heart surgery?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh my these are I mean See, the thing is what does Amazon know? Amazon knows what people ask
⏹️ ▶️ John because they have thousands and thousands of microphones at people’s houses that are just listening and People are asking them questions
⏹️ ▶️ John and when they don’t know the answer I’m sure they write them off to the side somewhere and and you know So tally them
⏹️ ▶️ John up and smush them all together and find out, boy, a lot of people want to know if white bread has bleach in it. Let’s add that to the
⏹️ ▶️ John list and throw it into the list. And some human picks it out and writes in the answer that says,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not. Oh, I think I found my soulmate. Somebody asked, what is the golf tournament?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco How do birds get water in the winter? That’s actually a good question. That was badly formed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my God, this is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m so on one hand, some of these are very endearing. Many of them are just kind of sad.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, people, people need answers. Where does Cupid come from?
Incase making MS peripherals
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, final note, apparently everything’s coming up Marco, I mean Milhouse, I mean Marco right now. Microsoft’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey keyboards and mice will live on baby. Microsoft surprised everyone last year by deciding
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to discontinue its range of popular mice keyboards and PC accessories. I don’t know where this is from, I apologize, I can’t cite
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the source, but anyways. I think the Verge had a big article about it. Okay, after decades of Microsoft branded PC hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the software giant has decided to focus on the Surface brand instead. Now a unique partnership will see Microsoft’s PC accessories
⏹️ ▶️ Casey live on thanks to Accessory Maker Incase. There are 23 products in total that will be available later this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We will put a link in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, this is great, you know, because Microsoft over the years has made some pretty great keyboards and mice,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they tend to make them for a very long time because, you know, they tend to not be, you know, super exciting,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t need to change them that often, and people like them, and, you know, businesses buy a ton of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s a pretty decent business to be in. It’s, you know, it’s not super exciting, but it’s, you know, nice, reliable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco income for products that they’ve designed and manufactured, I mean, oftentimes like 15, 20 years ago and they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco still making. So, you know, it did kind of baffle everyone when Microsoft, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco announced like, hey, we’re just gonna stop doing this after a very long time. You know, we’re gonna stop doing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this fairly low needs business for reasons, I don’t know why. And a lot of people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were upset because like when you can’t get your keyboard anymore, and I mean, the downside is like my favorite keyboard, the Sculpt ergonomic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is extremely short-lived. It only lasts like two or three
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years usually before it dies and you have to buy a new one. So a lot of fans
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of these keyboards were very upset about this. And so now, Incase has effectively entered some kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of partnership with Microsoft where they’re not like, you know, making their own brand new things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco necessarily. They’re just basically continuing Microsoft’s existing manufacturing operations to make these keyboards.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So they’re continuing what sounds like basically the same factories, you know, the same parts, the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco designs, same suppliers. It’ll just have the Incase branding on it. and then in case we’ll then,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I assume, support these. I guess that’s good. I don’t know a ton about in case, you know, they seem like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of those kind of like mass semi-budget brand makers of a bunch of different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco PC accessories over the years. So it’s probably not a bad thing, you know, for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the quality of the product or anything. It’s just a good thing. We’re going to keep having these, you know, keyboards and mice that we love so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much. They’re going to keep being made and that’s great. And I would love for some, you know, in some future,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love for one of these thousand different, you know, fancy keyboard companies
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that exist to make something that is as ergonomic as the Sculpt ergonomic keyboard, but no one ever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has. Yes, I know about the new Logitech one. It’s not. Like, no one ever has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco matched this keyboard. Please, for the love of all that is holy, someone make ergonomic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboards that A, tilt downwards towards the top
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them, not downwards towards the bottom, so that’s called reverse tilting, B, have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of a bulbous peak in the middle of them that then slopes downward to the left and right, that’s called,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe, that’s called tenting, and C, does not have the giant extended numpad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the right side, that way you have to keep your mouse like all the way in New Jersey off to the right side and it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco forces your arm to bend out more. Ergonomic keyboards are very simple to make if you follow those three guidelines.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No one does it. I don’t know why, but anyway, until anyone else does,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can now buy the Microsoft once again through, well, we can soon rather, buy the Microsoft once again
⏹️ ▶️ John Do you look at the, that article, they list the products that InCase will be making.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s like 23 individual products. Guess what’s not on that list?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, it’s a different kind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought it was a Marco oh no, it turns out it’s a John oh no.
⏹️ ▶️ John checked. Yeah, I’m so disappointed. I, at first, when I first saw the story, I’m like, oh, my mouse is there, I’m fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not, it’s the, uh, it’s the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse, which I think does
⏹️ ▶️ John not support wired connection, which is how I use mine. So it’s the same shape as mine, but then I
⏹️ ▶️ John couldn’t use it plugged in and I don’t, haven’t had good luck with the various wireless things
⏹️ ▶️ John here. So I don’t know what I’m gonna do. Maybe, I mean, they make the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse, why don’t they also make
⏹️ ▶️ John the Microsoft Precision mouse, which is just the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse, but with a wired connection.
⏹️ ▶️ John Or maybe they’re, what they’re calling the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse will also have the wired connection. We’ll see. I can’t tell from the picture, but.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not looking great for my mouse preferences and my mouse, kind of like Marcos keyboard, as we noted, aside from all the problems
⏹️ ▶️ John I have with it, the rubber thing on the side wears out and gets like a soft, gross spot on
⏹️ ▶️ John it. So it has a a lifetime ticking down on it as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great products. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, like, I don’t think that’s that unreasonable for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboards and mice, which are these like very high moving parts, high motion, high
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John usage kind of product.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s unreasonable for I don’t speak to your keyboard, but I think it’s unreasonable for a mouse because
⏹️ ▶️ John what I think I had my other my original mouse for what maybe it was like one or two years. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John it was less than a year. But like we have materials for mice that can withstand
⏹️ ▶️ John holding and using it. I use mice for
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey years and years
⏹️ ▶️ John and years. And if they just make the whole mouse out of that plastic, you’re fine. Or if
⏹️ ▶️ John you make it out of a rubber that survived like Logitech rubber. I’ve never worn through the rubber on a Logitech mouse. I’m sure it varies
⏹️ ▶️ John depending on your skin chemistry and which particular mouse you have but like I’m not doing
⏹️ ▶️ John anything really weird to my house It should last way longer than these lasts like way way way way
⏹️ ▶️ John longer like and I feel the same way about your keyboard I use an apple extended to keyboard for like You know 10 12
⏹️ ▶️ John years and it was fine despite the you know broken off f5 key And that was
⏹️ ▶️ John that was the fault of a pocket knife not the keyboard. I think your standards are too low for peripherals How’s your what
⏹️ ▶️ John he called the? Apple mouse, is there anything wearing off on that one?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, very slowly, the big long strips of plastic that kind of serve as like anti-skid things,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they very slowly develop scratches over time, but otherwise, no.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you can replace the little Teflon feet. Like you can just take those out and put new ones in there. That’s on most
⏹️ ▶️ John good mice. But yeah, I don’t, this, again, the only reason I’m using the Microsoft one is, one, the scroll wheel feels really
⏹️ ▶️ John good. It feels the way I want it to feel. The people have different preferences in their scroll wheels, but I like the way this one feels.
⏹️ ▶️ John And two, the shape of this mouse is as close as I could get to the shape that I prefer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, scroll wheels are like transmissions. You know what’s better than a manual transmission? No
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John You know what’s better than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a great scroll wheel? No scroll wheel. I kind of like scroll wheels. The Magic Mouse, man, it gets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me every day. It’s like, you try to use anything else, it’s like, oh, I gotta click this thing. Like, what year is this?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, the funny thing is, so I am a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Magic Trackpad user for the last several years. We’ve been over this before, but I was one of the last people that I knew to use
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a magic mouse. And the thing that the magic mouse that got me was not the scrolling and the initial
⏹️ ▶️ Casey inertial, excuse me, scrolling, which I agree with you, Marco. I’m not arguing not a bit, but what got
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it got me on the magic mouse, which I guess you can do this with some of these like MX master mice or whatever, but you can do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the two fingers side to side, or maybe, no, I’m sorry. It was two fingers side to side, go forward and back. That’s what it is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Safari. And three fingers side to side is what I was trying to say to go through different virtual
⏹️ ▶️ Casey screens, which I think I’m the only one of the three of us that does that, but you know, to go through different spaces. And so it’s the lateral
⏹️ ▶️ Casey two and three finger things that really kept me on the magic mouse for years. And I don’t remember
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what the impetus was for me to go to the trackpad. I think I just wanted to give it a shot and then ended up really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey liking it. Um, but I’ve been all trackpad, I think since my iMac pro, if
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not mistaken, it’s been a fair bit of time now. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John certainly a lot more room on a trackpad to three finger swipe sideways. I mean, doing that on the surface of a mouse
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or maybe, maybe I’m sorry. Maybe it’s wrong. Maybe it’s one finger left and right. I forget. It’s been so long since I’ve used magic mouse. I have one. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just haven’t used it. In fact, I think I have my iPad pros one, but I use them so rarely, but whatever this situation was,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was like one or two fingers to go back and forward in Safari, I wanted to say it was two and then like three to do spaces
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if memory serves, but again, I might have the, that wrong and if it’s wrong, it doesn’t matter, but
⏹️ ▶️ John you get my Mac pro came with a magic mouse. It’s still in the box. I think it came
⏹️ ▶️ John with, it must’ve come with one, right? I don’t remember. Yeah, it was a game of the keyboard and I’m using the keyboard. So yeah, the mouse
⏹️ ▶️ John has got to be in the box.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, it could have come with a trackpad. Oh, I think you could have optioned one or the other or. I would never have
⏹️ ▶️ John optioned the trackpad. Although now I have a trackpad. We finally found my wife’s old trackpad. We were cleaning up in the office and I’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John have this trackpad sitting on a desk in front of me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so sorry that you have to be that close to a piece that’s similar to a laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I don’t know what I’m going to do with it. I
⏹️ ▶️ John to, is there, they’re hard to store. Cause they’re a little wedge shape. I’m like, maybe should I try to use it? So just put it on my desk. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just sitting there now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You try to store it in a stack and everything slides off slowly.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s paid. It’s paired to the computer. Like I moved the cursor with it and I’m like, okay, nevermind.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do grasshoppers have tongues?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we back on Alexa?
⏹️ ▶️ John This is like, what is it, Yahoo Answers? What’s the definition
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the origin of how is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What’s the difference between couch and sofa? That’s a good question.
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Vision Pro is imminent
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple announced that the Vision Pro is going to launch on February 2 and you’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be able to order it on Friday the 19th. Apple, I’m very surprised, is continuing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be kind to these coasters with an 8 a.m. introduction time which I am here for.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am very appreciative of that, appreciative of that, whether or not I end up ordering one. Basically,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it will be available at all United States Apple Store locations and it will also be available
⏹️ ▶️ Casey online. It’s unclear to me, and I don’t think it has been made clear whether or not you must pick
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up at a store, which was a rumor that we heard for a while. Um, you can get lenses for it. You
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can get reader style optical inserts for a hundred dollars. I presume
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s a hundred dollars for a pair. I actually don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John I would. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting that they didn’t say that, but it does say plural. So I’m going to say pair.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Reading glasses lenses are very cheap.
⏹️ ▶️ John There are an Apple land. There are hundred dollars.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yes. Everywhere else. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John five bucks. Apple drugstore for $2 or from
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then, uh, if you need full on prescription lenses or optical inserts, excuse me, that’s $150. Again,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the assumption is for a pair, but that isn’t absolutely stated. So we’re not sure.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that is actually quote unquote inexpensive as compared to the ridiculous system we have in the U S
⏹️ ▶️ John for actual prescription lenses that you buy. Some people were discussing this online,
⏹️ ▶️ John about the pricing for the prescription lenses in particular, we’re thinking if you were to buy
⏹️ ▶️ John glasses, you know, plain old glasses at a regular glass store in the US and you had prescription lenses and you got
⏹️ ▶️ John those lenses for $150, they’re going to be the cheapest lenses the place has to
⏹️ ▶️ John sell to you. So they’re not going to be the super fancy high index, you know, plastic
⏹️ ▶️ John where they’ll make the lenses thinner or whatever. Probably less of an issue is inside a headset and no one’s looking at them anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I do wonder what material these are made out of and what the index is. High index is like
⏹️ ▶️ John how much does this bend the light for the thickness, right? And so if you if you have really bad vision like I do
⏹️ ▶️ John to get something that is my correct prescription and it’s not high index plastic, the glasses
⏹️ ▶️ John are incredibly thick. You talk about Coke bottle glasses, but they’re such another of those things that
⏹️ ▶️ John make sense to older people, maybe not younger people. Coca-Cola used to come in glass bottles. And if you cracked off the
⏹️ ▶️ John bottom of the glass bottle, the glass in the bottom was thicker. And if you had really thick glasses, people would say you had coke
⏹️ ▶️ John bottle glasses because they look like Really really thick glass stuck on there. I did. I got them once one time when I was
⏹️ ▶️ John a kid My parents got me non-high index plastic glasses. They were so thick. They were like
⏹️ ▶️ John a centimeter thick It was ridiculous looking just huge massive every time
⏹️ ▶️ John you see like Glasses frames in the store or like a model wearing glasses. They’re always
⏹️ ▶️ John wearing them with these lenses that are like wafer thin, right? But when you have actual bad
⏹️ ▶️ John vision and you don’t use high index plastic, the lenses become thicker than the glasses
⏹️ ▶️ John frame very quickly, like five times thicker, not just a little bit thicker. So it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John no longer like, oh, look at this person wearing these glasses with probably no lenses in them at all. They don’t look fashionable.
⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t look fashionable when a centimeter thick piece of plastic is in the middle of each one of them. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m interested to see what kind of material these $150 prescription lenses are made out of.
⏹️ ▶️ John And again, maybe it makes no difference inside the headset, but I have to think thickness might be some factor because
⏹️ ▶️ John some people are using this headset with no lenses. Those people who are blessed with very good vision. And that means
⏹️ ▶️ John the screens, like these lenses are an additional thickness between you and the screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t know if you have very long eyelashes, are they gonna brush against the prescription lenses
⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re so close to the screen? And maybe you two can answer these questions, but you can’t talk about it. Well, we’ll find out in a little bit. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m mostly happy with these prices because even if it’s per eye, $150, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John still less than I was fearing they would be. So I guess that’s good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder too, I mean, first of all, like, you know, the prescription lens industry is famously like very inflated,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I wonder too, like, they, there’s so many things that like, you know, reasons that you would get higher end prescription
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lenses that wouldn’t really matter inside the Vision Pro. You know, you mentioned thickness, like, you know, a lot of, I would assume
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of the reason why thin lenses are in fashion is first of all, because they look better, like fashionably wise.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco second of all, because they’re lighter weight. In here, neither of those things is substantially significant.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also, all the different coatings you can get, like the anti-glare coating, anti-scratch, all these different coatings
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they try to upsell you on with prescription lenses, none of those are really in play here. They
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn’t really matter here or be necessary. So maybe the combination of all those factors means that it really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not that expensive to give you prescription lenses.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so the two things that I think are still factors, like I said, is distance, how much space is there for a really, really
⏹️ ▶️ John thick lens. Right? And the second thing is like sort of the sidewall dimension. Like the thicker the glasses,
⏹️ ▶️ John the bigger the sidewall and the sidewalls are not really participating optically
⏹️ ▶️ John except in so far as light may enter the lens and bounce off the sidewall and come
⏹️ ▶️ John back to you and you don’t want that light. Like, especially since the sides of lenses are often not like the lenses themselves
⏹️ ▶️ John are clear and polished and everything but the sidewalls are kind of like smoky. You know what I mean? Like that,
⏹️ ▶️ John I know from experience having worn those glasses that were way too thick, that were the not high index plastic,
⏹️ ▶️ John those thick smoky sidewalls often were sort of in my peripheral vision and I felt like light
⏹️ ▶️ John would like light them up, like it would light up frosted glass. And that you probably don’t want even inside a headset.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so the Vision Pro comes with a solo knit band,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I think is the big thick thing that they pictured most often that goes around the
⏹️ ▶️ John head. Yeah, it’s like a catcher’s mitt on the back of your head. Exactly. It’s an, it was in, I think it was the only thing
⏹️ ▶️ John in the original, like the launch video and all of the launch artwork for the headset
⏹️ ▶️ John with the exception of maybe one image. It was that one big single strap that goes behind your
⏹️ ▶️ John head and gets really wide when it goes in the back of your head.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then it also has a dual loop band, which Apple says gives users two options for the fit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that works best for them, or I guess between the two bands.
⏹️ ▶️ John Is that the Hermes version that goes around your head twice?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s one above your head and one behind your head, right? And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John then there’s-
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, wait, wait, no, that’s what the two options they’re talking about are. One is the solo. Right. I hate these names.
⏹️ ▶️ John One is the single strap band and one is the one with two straps, right? Yeah. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then it also includes a light seal, two light seal cushions. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey guess, what are the differences between them there? So the light seal is the big thick part and the cushion
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the part that’s actually pressing against your face?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, and I can tell you probably why. as the father of a child who has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco used a VR headset a lot, very heavily, the part that squishes against your face gets really gross
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stinky. Cool. So it’s good to be able to replace those easily. I wonder if they’re machine washable.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, goodness, who knows? So yeah, two light seal cushions, an Apple Vision Pro cover for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey front of the device.
⏹️ ▶️ John I saw that. I saw that people have like patent filings on it. I’m like, this is interesting. I wonder if they’ll ship this. And lo and behold, a few days
⏹️ ▶️ John later, you know, a cover for the front of the device, Like the front of
⏹️ ▶️ John the device, I know there’s a screen there and it’s made of glass and it shows your eyeballs or whatever, but it really
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t participate much in the process of what you see as the wearer. So I guess you’re covering
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen so people can get a scratch free view of your virtual
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, will it operate with the cover or like will the cameras shoot through the cover? Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are there openings for all the cameras? I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John assuming this is like for storage and transport.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s what I thought.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s why I assume like, because for a cover to actually have it be operated through, you’d have to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have openings for all the cameras, all the vent holes, the digital crown, like, you know, all the different parts of it that kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of are required. They probably are not doing that. It’s probably just like, you know, a cover for storage.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that would be like a screen protector, but this has a cover for the front of the device. I’m kind of picturing like the weird
⏹️ ▶️ John bra they have on the AirPods Max.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. But for this. Yeah, because that went so well.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, similar, because like, again, if I’m gonna transport this, Something
⏹️ ▶️ John that merely covers the screen on the front is not doing the job of making this transportable.
⏹️ ▶️ John The whole rest of this ungainly thing is still out there flopping around, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And that’s part of, you know, that’s one of the big, I think, restrictions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and challenges on this whole design they’ve gone with, of having the outside be a screen. Like, again, look at every other VR
⏹️ ▶️ Marco headset. The outside is just a flat piece of plastic with some sensors on it. And Apple’s like, no, this is gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a single giant piece of glass
⏹️ ▶️ Marco show some creepy version of your eyes through it. And it’s, I mean, it’s a bunch of trade-offs for sure.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And one of the trade-offs is, well, it’s more expensive and bigger and much heavier and everything else. Another one of the trade-offs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that it becomes much harder to transport.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and then you get a free, for the low, low cost of $3,500 plus, polishing cloth,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is very exciting. You get a battery, which is compulsory to use the device,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a USB-C charge cable, and a USB-C power adapter. So that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is what’s in the box, Which to be honest is not an insignificant amount of stuff. I mean, that is a fair bit of stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I saw some rumors and discussion based, again, based on patent filings or whatever, of other possible
⏹️ ▶️ John strap options, including, so the straps that they show in their PR photos
⏹️ ▶️ John have that little, I don’t know, little pod that has the speakers in it that fires the sound down
⏹️ ▶️ John into your ears. But of course, if you’ve decided that you’re going to use your AirPods or something with it, rather than
⏹️ ▶️ John using those speakers, you don’t need those pods anymore. So, and like we saw when
⏹️ ▶️ John this thing launched, the straps are actually made up of two portions. One is kind of a stiff portion that connects to the headset.
⏹️ ▶️ John And two is a, like the loose sort of strappy thing that goes around your head that you could replace the stiff
⏹️ ▶️ John portions with ones that don’t have the speaker pods in them for a sleeker, lighter weight thing. But
⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like that’s not a thing that they’re shipping was just something they considered during the design.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, overall, like this is actually pretty well accessorized, it seems like right in the box.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this is just one of the wonderful things of it being a brand new product line. You know, like originally the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPod came with like the dock and the cable, all this other stuff, right? And then as the iPod line went
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on, it became, you know, cheaper and cheaper. And there was a lot less stuff in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco box and more stuff you had to buy separately. Same with the iPhone. You know, the iPhone used to come with more stuff in the box
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than it does now. Like a charger, at least this comes with something you can charge it with. I know, right? So, at least like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, right now we’re still in the really early part of this. And so they’re gonna give us all the accessories. but I bet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in five years, we know whatever Vision line products are out then, you’re gonna see a lot less of this stuff coming with them.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, the most glaring one of the straps, cause it’s like, okay, one of these straps is probably
⏹️ ▶️ John going to quote unquote win. You know what I mean? Like I know people’s heads are shaped differently and everything, but
⏹️ ▶️ John like them shipping both the straps is kind of like, we couldn’t figure out one strap that worked
⏹️ ▶️ John the best for everybody. So here’s two, good luck. Like, and obviously the one
⏹️ ▶️ John with the top strap should help a little bit with the weight because it literally goes over the top of your head rather than having to pinch
⏹️ ▶️ John the thing against the front and back of your head to keep it from sliding downwards. But they’re still shipping
⏹️ ▶️ John the single one. So it’s like, it’s not even like, the thing weighs
⏹️ ▶️ John the same no matter what. Is it just, is the single strap one just for people like me with big noses who can support the weight of this? But
⏹️ ▶️ John you really don’t want the weight to be supported on your nose. So I don’t understand. The two straps being shipped here, it’s kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of like they’re just throwing up their hands and like, it’s $3,500 and we can afford it and we couldn’t figure it out. I have to think that
⏹️ ▶️ John the correct strap is probably neither of these. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John something, it’s an evolution of one of them. And I think having real people buy this
⏹️ ▶️ John thing and use it and, you know, complain about it, people with different hairstyles and
⏹️ ▶️ John different size and shape heads and different tolerance for pinching in different places and different size skulls.
⏹️ ▶️ John Cause again, this, you know, you can get a different face shield for this, but it doesn’t come in different widths. It doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John even come in two different sizes like the Apple watch. It is the size it is. and they do the best they can to make it
⏹️ ▶️ John conform to your face. But if you have a really, really wide head or really, really narrow head, it’s only
⏹️ ▶️ John so much you can do and ditto with the strap. So this is definitely sort of an experimental
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like, let’s see what sticks. Here’s two straps. Good luck.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, it also might just be that the the last thing they want is for someone to dislike
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the product based on some, you know, fairly avoidable comfort issue. They’re really putting themselves
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there with this. They’re launching this whole new thing. It’s a massive risk and you know there’s gonna be a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whole bunch of people who get it and try to You know try to make YouTube videos about how much it sucks, whatever It’s like you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re trying to cover their bases. They’re trying to like make sure you know We don’t want anyone to go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco through the process of spending 3,500 plus dollars on this thing getting going to the store getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco themselves fit for the shield get an abscription Optical inserts and all this other stuff like this is quite a process
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get this thing You know made for you and fit for you only to then discover. Oh, it’s kind of uncomfortable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comfortable. So that’s probably why they’re including both straps. Like give people all the options.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I mean, that’s gonna happen no matter what, though. Like that’s the thing about this, because they haven’t like how
⏹️ ▶️ John many people have ever worn this in the entire world? You could probably put them in a pretty small theater.
⏹️ ▶️ John Not many people have ever used this, and now you’re gonna sell a million of them in a year. You’re gonna very
⏹️ ▶️ John quickly find out, okay, this part of this strap pinches this percentage of people
⏹️ ▶️ John the bands are too wide or too narrow or tilt down too much or not enough like They could do all the testing they
⏹️ ▶️ John can internally But you’re only gonna find out once this and it’s inevitable that it’s gonna be uncomfortable Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s I know from again from wearing glasses glasses frames can be uncomfortable That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the main things that I use to choose my glasses frames and also one of the reasons I’m wearing glasses frames That are older than my children
⏹️ ▶️ John is because I find a lot of glass at frames uncomfortable And yes, I know with glasses frames You can bend them and
⏹️ ▶️ John put them into the little hot beads and try to get them all lined up and do all these things but the combination of like durability
⏹️ ▶️ John and comfort and which frames work rest on your face with your nose and your ears
⏹️ ▶️ John and You know everything else It’s a very personal thing and it’s extremely difficult
⏹️ ▶️ John to find something that works like especially things that get strapped to your head even you know shopping for things like ski goggles which are
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of similar to this and They have the advantage of you probably wearing a hat to cushion the strap going around your
⏹️ ▶️ John head. So Yeah, I think they’re probably doing the best they can but I look at all these straps and I’m like
⏹️ ▶️ John these cannot be the final I mean obviously the the real solution to this problem is make the headset
⏹️ ▶️ John smaller and lighter And I hope they do that but judging by their love of that stupid aluminum frame and
⏹️ ▶️ John curved glass front I’m not sure what kind of progress they’re gonna make on that in the next year or two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I Bet the front screen is the first thing to go in future revision of this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, like I’m sure there’s going to be a vision error or something like that They just put stickers there with eyeballs on them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, yeah, it’ll be because you know aluminum is much lighter than glass So if they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the front of it becomes mostly a flat piece of aluminum with some cameras on or whatever like that would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually be a significant weight savings.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think should really make it out of plastic I think there’s there’s more of an excuse to use the air pods max because headphones at least get
⏹️ ▶️ John banged around and your head could Hit something sideways, but honestly this thing what is this gonna be banging into hopefully nothing?
⏹️ ▶️ John Especially since they always want you to be seated while you’re using it. They never show you like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but that’s during use you still got to get it places if it ever leaves your house
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll just put it in that little cover. That’ll totally protect
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, John you’re right like I mean honestly both the AirPods Max and the vision pro should probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be made of more plastic than They are because that would make them both lighter and that would significantly improve comfort
⏹️ ▶️ John They should just that’s why I keep hoping that Apple will get into like carbon fiber or something. I know it’s not feasible We’re always looking for like
⏹️ ▶️ John how about something that’s lighter and durable but is not metal and carbon fiber
⏹️ ▶️ John fulfills those things except it’s extremely expensive and annoying to manufacture and has also all sorts of
⏹️ ▶️ John other advantages but it’s like if you’re gonna stubbornly refuse to do plastic is there some other material that you feel
⏹️ ▶️ John okay about using I don’t know magnesium like titanium yeah I guess
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I mean we’ll see also like keep in mind to like one of the major reasons they would want to save
⏹️ ▶️ Marco weight is to then immediately spend it by putting the battery inside the headset oh no
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they don’t want to do that I mean they don’t want to do that But I think they need to do that at some
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, so what the other people do is they put the battery on the behind your head to try to
⏹️ ▶️ John balance the weight in the front. But it’s still weight. It’s not great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even that, like, you know, like the the the quest to. And yeah, because we because now Adam got a quest three
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Christmas. And I have some experience seeing both of them around the house. They like all of those headsets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have internal batteries to the front of the headset also. But they now offer like extended
⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery head straps that have more battery on the back of the head. I can see Apple doing something like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that down the road, maybe. But I think step one is get the price down of this product.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then step two is get the battery inside of it. And so I think any advances they’re going to have and any any
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes they make to eliminate weight or size should be spent. Then going towards those
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, maybe I’ll have to see what the batteries like in real life to see like what kind of way that we talk about, because we know the battery doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John last very long as it is. So, you know, I think it’s still like a, uh, you know, we talked about the, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John the iPhone, uh, MagSafe backpack is the, uh, like a magnetically
⏹️ ▶️ John attached backpack strap, imagine an actual backpack that a human could wear with two straps
⏹️ ▶️ John and had a huge battery in it. And you could be in your vision pro for 48 hours. Oh, someone will definitely
⏹️ ▶️ John sell that. I’m sure. Be very healthy. Talk about a stinky, uh, cushion.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Wow. Uh, yeah. Yeah. All right, so Apple also noted that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Vision Pro is designed with the environment in mind with 100% recycled rare earth metals, excuse me, rare earth
⏹️ ▶️ Casey elements in all magnets and 100% recycled tin, soldering and gold plating
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in multiple printed circuit boards. The frame and battery enclosure contain 100% recycled aluminum and the light
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seal and solo knit band are each made with over 70% recycled yarn. The Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey meets Apple’s high standards for energy efficiency and is free of mercury, brominated, I hope I pronounced
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that right, flame retardants, PVC and beryllium. The packaging is 100% fiber-based,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bringing Apple closer to its goal of eliminating plastics in all packaging by 2025. Kudos to them. Yeah, pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John they’ve made a pretty good effort here. Like we talked about the watch as like the one product that was
⏹️ ▶️ John totally carbon neutral and everything. And it’s like, you can tell, like there are some parts of it that they still
⏹️ ▶️ John couldn’t do. Not everything is 100% recycled, but they’re trying as hard as they can here to
⏹️ ▶️ John use recycled materials in all the places where they can, which is good. It’s interesting that the solo, uh, knit band
⏹️ ▶️ John is 70% recycled, but the double loop band, no recycled stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I’m sure some of it, well, I would assume I shouldn’t say I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John sure. They would have listed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Yeah. But if it was only like 10%, I don’t think they would have listed it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it kind of makes me think that there, the original plan was, Hey, this one strap is going to work for everybody.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they eventually learned late in the game, you know, as in two years ago. So, you know, I
⏹️ ▶️ John know we thought this was going to be the strap. Because if you look at these two straps, look at the one they show in all the PR things,
⏹️ ▶️ John the single one with the big catchers in it, and then look at the double strap and the double strap is like, is
⏹️ ▶️ John that a prototype? Or is that the final? It doesn’t have that Apple look.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it would make sense that they spent all this time making sure they could make what was going to be the one and only strap. Make sure, can
⏹️ ▶️ John we manufacture that with 70% recycled yarn, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, I said, like I said, late in the game, as in
⏹️ ▶️ John a year or two ago, said, we need another strap. This one doesn’t work for enough people. Can we slap some of the other
⏹️ ▶️ John real fast? Fine, but we can’t do the recycled stuff. Fine, just ship it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fine. All right. So we also got some more Vision Pro info. The Vision Pro, this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is from Bloomberg, will be equipped with 16 gigs of RAM, the same amount of memory that was included in the Vision Pro development kits
⏹️ ▶️ Casey distributed by Apple last year. Wish I could have got one of those. German says that YouTubers
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and members of the media selected for reviews will meet with Apple on January 16th for a hands
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on experience with a follow-up meeting to take place on the 23rd to go over the device’s features a second time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Reviews are set to be published at the end of January. I will be the canary
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the coal mine and say I did not get invited to this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also did not get invited to this. Me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John neither. So John, you’re going to go? No, but the
⏹️ ▶️ John interesting thing about this is that, and they’ve done this with Vision Pro already. So like Gruber, for example, saw
⏹️ ▶️ John it when it was launched. And then they also called him back to have him look at his
⏹️ ▶️ John photos in the spatial video thing and stuff. Like a bunch of people have done that, right? The whole idea of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re gonna have media see this before everyone else, fine, that’s normal. But having them come back
⏹️ ▶️ John twice, I think is especially for this product because they’re gonna, you know, meet with them on the 16th
⏹️ ▶️ John and give them a hands-on experience. And I’m assuming they’re gonna send them home with devices
⏹️ ▶️ John and then they’ll come back on the 23rd. And I think coming back on the 23rd is where they’re gonna hear from
⏹️ ▶️ John the people who said, I tried to use this, but it’s hurting my head here and this is fogging up and blah, blah, blah. I think I got
⏹️ ▶️ John the wrong prescription because that’s the second for Apple to get like good reviews essentially that’s a chance for them
⏹️ ▶️ John to address the concerns that are only going to come up when the people take these things homes and try to Actually use them for
⏹️ ▶️ John extended periods of time for real work and that I think I felt that January 23rd thing is essentially the
⏹️ ▶️ John The fitting, you know the final fitting. Okay, how’d this work for you? Did we give you the right face shield
⏹️ ▶️ John thing or do you need a different one? Did that strap work for you? Which strategy like better tell us more about
⏹️ ▶️ John why like all that that that is really kind of doing everything they can
⏹️ ▶️ John so that, you know, 50% of the first wave of reviews isn’t just I was a little uncomfortable because I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John think it fit me right. But oh, well, the 23rd is a chance for Apple to fix that and say, OK, you did pick the wrong face. You’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John try this one. Try the bigger one. Try the smaller
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m guessing the 16th is a preview because preorders open a few days after that, and they want people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to talk about them so that people will preorder it. And then I’m guessing no one gets review hardware until
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe, I mean, if what I said is not what they’re doing, it’s what they should be doing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, they should be inviting us.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right, well, no, but like, honestly, like I think the having a second round where you
⏹️ ▶️ John hear people’s complaints is so much more important. Like, if they have complaints about like software or bugs, you can’t fix
⏹️ ▶️ John that, right? But if it’s about complaints about fit, it’s like, you can fix that. We have different face shields.
⏹️ ▶️ John I can, you know, give you suggestions on the strap. Tell me what problems you were having. Maybe we have them too. We can
⏹️ ▶️ John help you with them. It’s not like when people get an early thing and there’s a bunch of bugs in that, they,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, what are the marketing people going to do? They’re like, oh, we can’t fix that software before this launches. So just.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. And then Apple released an ad, um, uh, for the vision pro, which they call
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get ready and the general gist. It’s only 30 seconds. And, and if I were to paint
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you a word picture, it’s basically a bunch of movie characters, either putting on helmets or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey face masks or things over their eyes. And, um, I had forgotten about this, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot of people pointed out that this is very much in the vein of the hello iPhone ad, which was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a bunch of people answering the phone from movies and saying, hello, you know, how can I help you? What’s up, et cetera, et cetera.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And very, very spiritually similar between the two. I thought it was a good ad. I mean, I, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not making me run up and, you know, get ready to order a Vision Pro immediately, but it was a good ad.
⏹️ ▶️ John The thing I like about the, uh, original iPhone ad is the only people who remember
⏹️ ▶️ John that ad were people who are paying attention to the iPhone when it was launched, because that was
⏹️ ▶️ John the launch ad for the original iPhone. And that means it was just a bunch of Apple nerds because everyone else
⏹️ ▶️ John is like, Oh, Apple came out with a phone, whatever, like, but people weren’t. That interested in the iPhone anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ John They are interested in the Mac or anything else at that stage. And I guess the iPod was out there. Uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco disagree. That’s not how I remember it at all.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I know there was lots of hype around the iPhone, but look at how well it sold in the first
⏹️ ▶️ John year. And it’s not because they couldn’t make enough of them. People were not that jazzed to get an iPhone.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, that’s an Apple thing. I like my iPod, but I also like my current cell phone and it’ll be fine or
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey whatever. I strongly disagree. I don’t remember it that way
⏹️ ▶️ John either. Yeah, I don’t remember it that way. Well, Casey didn’t even remember the ad and he is an Apple nerd. I
⏹️ ▶️ John think if you ask the average person on the street, do you remember the original iPhone ad? And then ask the same question of, you remember the original
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac ad, you’re gonna get very different answers.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s not a fair comparison at all. Why not? Because, first of all, the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ad was during the Super Bowl and I don’t recall when the Hello ad might was.
⏹️ ▶️ John think the Hello ad did get a lot of airplay, but I think people were like, yeah, that’s that Apple phone thing anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I mean, I remember that the time span from January to June, like January was the announcement
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then it was available in June. That time span, everyone was buzzing about the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for six months. everyone in our world, yes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey No, I disagree. It was mainstream.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It was everywhere.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everyone was buzzing about it for six months straight.
⏹️ ▶️ John But they didn’t buy it when it came out because it was too expensive and who wants an Apple phone?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, no, a lot of it was like, you know, waiting until your contract was up on your current phone or whatever. Because that was,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, that was a very contract-based buying period. Everybody had like one or two year contracts on their phones.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And also, AT&T sucked at the time. And in America, anyway, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had to have it on AT&T. And I remember that was not gonna happen for years. And then eventually,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey both for my own purposes, like I didn’t wanna do that. And then eventually I decided I lusted after
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and wanted the iPhone so badly that I’d be willing to try AT&T. And then I had to sell Aaron on it cause we were
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on a joint, were and are on a joint plan.
⏹️ ▶️ John Why’d you have to sell her on it? Everybody loves the iPhone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The level of hype it had and buzz around mainstream audiences was way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger than what the Vision Pro has now.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I agree. I think they’re both similar. I think you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey misremembering
⏹️ ▶️ John the iPhone because the iPhone is now the iPhone. But back then it was like Apple’s trying to do a phone and people aren’t sure
⏹️ ▶️ John how well it’s gonna do. But anyway, it’s coming out.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Nerds are excited about it
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s interesting, but it’s also just kind of a curiosity and off in the corner because the real cell phone market is Nokia
⏹️ ▶️ John long to turn people, just look at the sales figures, look at the sales chart for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you’re misconstruing two different things. The iPhone was crippled when it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey new, which at first sounds like I’m agreeing with you.
⏹️ ▶️ John But so is the Vision Pro, it’s $3,500. that you can’t, tons of things you can’t do with it. You know, it’s like run
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, a lot of people are saying with the Vision Pro, I don’t even see why I would want that. Whereas the original iPhone, it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, okay, next time I get a new renewal on my contract, slash when it comes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to my carrier, I’m jumping on that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Bingo, bingo. I think you have to look at the sales number and see that that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not the way it played out. I think you’re a misremembering history and thinking the iPhone was always a hit that everybody
⏹️ ▶️ John wanted and it wasn’t. It took a while to convince people. It was mostly a curiosity to add lots of hype. And I think that’s exactly
⏹️ ▶️ John like the Vision Pro. It’s a curiosity to add lots of hype. Will the Vision Pro prove itself like the iPhone? We’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think we are all perhaps misremembering because I could not disagree more with your characterization of what it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like in 2007-ish. And especially, even if I were to take your incorrect memory as fact,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would say that the moment anyone put their hands on a smartphone, immediately it clicked.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because I remember- But they hadn’t when the ad aired. That’s the whole, my whole point is skepticism, skepticism
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but again, I mean, yes, I think there was a degree of skepticism, probably more than I’m giving it credit for,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but certainly a lot less than I think you are remembering. I don’t think people were near as skeptical
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as you seem to believe they were. But even on top of that, I think I agree with Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it was more about, wow, that sounds cool, but A, I’ve got another year and a half left on this phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey B, it is very expensive. And C, there’s no frigging way I’m getting on Singular or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey AT&T or what have you, because they suck. And I mean, I cannot overstate at the time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now it’s very different. In fact, I would say even a few years into the iPhone, it was very different. But at the time,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Singular was, and AT&T both, were
⏹️ ▶️ John terrible. God, were they
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the reason people weren’t as interested. Once they heard it was AT&T only, and or Singular only
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, it’s just like, oh, it’s a curiosity, whatever. It wasn’t, we were, everyone in the Apple world was
⏹️ ▶️ John insanely hyped about it. Anyone who had touched it loved it. tech nerds were totally into it, but look at the sales. Look,
⏹️ ▶️ John two years later, people’s contracts drop, it’s 2009. Wow, look at those sales. They’re better than they were in 2007, but they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John nothing like what they would become.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No one’s arguing that it sold massively the first year. We’re not saying that. What we’re saying is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that there was huge buzz.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I’m saying. People were, and it’s not because people were like, oh, I want to get one the second I can. They could,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they didn’t. They chose not to buy it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, because of other circumstances. I don’t think it was because they were unconvinced. It was because of other circumstances around it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it’s like, oh, I wish I had one, but they’re not on my network. I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey know Verizon and iPhone. That’s exactly what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was for me. That was a huge part of it. What are you talking about, John? That was a massive part of it. That’s why you could see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the sales spike every time they would add a new major carrier. The
⏹️ ▶️ John sales spike for this thing was the iPhone 6 when they finally made a big phone. Oh my God. No.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Anyway, the point is when
⏹️ ▶️ John that ad aired, people were not like, oh, I can’t wait to get an iPhone. Nerds were like that, but even
⏹️ ▶️ John among nerds, not everyone got one because they were expensive and it was AT&T only. So the ad aired and people were
⏹️ ▶️ John not like, Oh my God, it’s that phone. Everyone’s gonna get it because everyone didn’t get it. Look at the first year sales numbers. Look at the
⏹️ ▶️ John second year sales numbers. So when the ad came, people were not dying to get it. And unlike the original Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John ad, they weren’t intrigued by a mysterious thing they didn’t know anything about because they’d already seen the introduction.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I still think you’re a hundred percent wrong, but the Vision Pro does not have anywhere near
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the level of mainstream interest and hype as the iPhone did.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s going to be a much slower launch. And that’s, you know, given like manufacturing and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco supply realities, that’s probably fine. You know, I saw a few people on Mastodon over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the last couple of days refer to it almost like launching a dev kit as a product. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually a pretty good analogy because what we’re gonna see over the next year with the Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is basically very low sales numbers. It’s a budding market. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco initial buyers are gonna be largely early gadget adopters at the high end of the market and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers and people who are getting it for some kind of testing or development role, and we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna see the app and content market probably very slowly grow over time. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it really is kind of like a tech preview that they’re selling. It’s so early still,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the mainstream consumers, I think are gonna have relatively little interest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in jumping on this, yet the price obviously is a massive thing holding it back.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All the different physical limitations and awkwardnesses of it, I think are gonna keep it small
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while, but it doesn’t need more than that right now just because they again like they can’t make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more of them anyway. So like it’s going to be a huge hit. It’s going to sell out. It’s going to be back ordered. You
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, I’m going to try to order one on day one. I think it’s going to be very difficult to actually get like early delivery on it. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure it’s going to be one of those things where like you like refresh the Apple Store, the Apple Store app over and over again until the time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comes around and then all of a sudden it’s like, oh 12 weeks out, 18 weeks out, 24 weeks out, like it’s going to be that kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing. But there is no comparison to the level of consumer excitement
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the Vision Pro compared to the iPhone.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s pretty good comparison. But anyway, my
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey point, my whole point with this ad thing. Can everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell him how wrong he is, please? Please write him right now and tell him how wrong he is.
⏹️ ▶️ John ask for people to write in because you’re not gonna like what they say.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because people remember. So do we. People who are not in the Apple tech nerd sphere remember Apple people
⏹️ ▶️ John being excited about the phone, but them going, Yeah, whatever, I’ll check it out later. Anyway, my point is when
⏹️ ▶️ John people see this ad, A, they’re not gonna remember the hello ad, just like you didn’t Casey, and you were kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John into Apple stuff at that point, right? They’re
⏹️ ▶️ John remember the ad that’s echoing. I did, it seemed ridiculous to me that anyone who was in the Apple world would not remember
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey experience has
⏹️ ▶️ John shown that talking to people, that lots of people didn’t remember it, right? So they’re not gonna remember that the hello ad. When someone sees this ad on TV, they’re gonna be
⏹️ ▶️ John like, what is this? They’re gonna say to themselves, oh yeah, it’s that Apple headset thing I heard about,
⏹️ ▶️ John and then they’re gonna forget about it. And then in 15 years, when we say, hey, do you remember the launch
⏹️ ▶️ John ad for Apple Vision Pro? They’re gonna be like, no. It was just like the launch ad for the iPhone. You’re like,
⏹️ ▶️ John the launch ad for the iPhone, the what? Nobody’s gonna remember these things because it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John a proven product yet. That’s the whole point. People don’t have it, people haven’t used it, it’s not a proven product.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so when you put out an ad like this, it’s memorable to people like us because we’re super hyped about it because we’re super
⏹️ ▶️ John big Apple followers. But unless it is like a big artistic statement or a tease
⏹️ ▶️ John that everyone was curious about, like the 1984 ad, it’s not gonna stick in popular culture’s mind.
⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s why I think this ad is a good match with the iPhone ad to
⏹️ ▶️ John basically be a copy of the same ad, but saying, instead of people in movies picking up phones, it’ll be people in movies putting things over their eyeballs.
⏹️ ▶️ John All I’m saying is kudos to Apple because I think you appropriately calibrated this ad
⏹️ ▶️ John to be a match for the iPhone. And of course, Apple’s hope is, just like the iPhone, this is gonna be a huge hit
⏹️ ▶️ John and we’ll see about that. But the parallels are obvious to me,
⏹️ ▶️ John both in the ads and in my expected reception of the device.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. Well, we’ll see. I don’t know anyone personally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is amused by the Vision Pro that isn’t a tech nerd, like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a true up and down tech nerd. And I think a lot of people are casually interested
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I think like amongst my peer group, for example, I think the assumption is I will probably get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one amongst these people. I’d actually like to talk to you two about that in a minute, but, um, the assumption is I’ll get one. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey every single one of them will figuratively speaking, line up to try it. But I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think that any of them are even for a fleeting moment considering buying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one. I think they are at most like, Oh, I wonder what that’s like to use.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’s way more expensive than the iPhone was obviously. And it’s, and talking about the dev kit aspects
⏹️ ▶️ John of it, all VR headsets, all things that you strap to your head, that put screens in front of your eyeballs,
⏹️ ▶️ John they all look like and essentially behave like not dev kits, but like
⏹️ ▶️ John things that are tech nerdy in a way that is beyond normal. What a normal
⏹️ ▶️ John person expects to endure, right? I mean, it’s usage. It was used in jokes for
⏹️ ▶️ John movies for ages. Oh, you put these big headset on with screens in front of your eyeballs. And yes, people do VR gaming,
⏹️ ▶️ John but even that is kind of nerdy. Anything this big, a big ski goggly screen thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that goes and your eyeballs has not penetrated to the point where like AirPods,
⏹️ ▶️ John they started off weird and then very quickly, oh, everyone just wears AirPods. It’s fine. Again, Apple hopes that’s what will happen
⏹️ ▶️ John with this, but at $3,500, it’s not going to happen. Right. But right now, this
⏹️ ▶️ John entire product category is a weird thing that tech people do. It has not
⏹️ ▶️ John graduated to a thing that everybody does or a thing that normal people do.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, I’m not sure this is the product that’s going to put it over that line. But certainly at the point now when it hasn’t even launched,
⏹️ ▶️ John everyone is just looking askance at this entire product category of like, remind me again, why
⏹️ ▶️ John I’d want to strap that to my face because they haven’t tried it. So Apple hasn’t had a chance to prove
⏹️ ▶️ John to them why they’d want to. And, and then the people who do use them are like, okay, well, can I play
⏹️ ▶️ John my favorite VR game on it? No. All right. Well, I’ll just stick to my meta, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I’m very surprised that they didn’t do some sort of keynote to just remind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey us why we should be excited about this. in this this ad, the get ready ad. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey debate that it’s a good ad, but it did not make me think, yes, I can’t wait to do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey blank in my vision. Probe
⏹️ ▶️ John is it’s for people who are already anticipating it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I wonder I wonder if they’re kind of holding back a little bit on on like how hard they push
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this to consumers yet, because they know it’s kind of a tough sell to most consumers right now.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and it gives them it gives like I said, it gives them breathing world to breathing room to work out the issues.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe they still got the straps wrong. Maybe there is an issue with, again, condensation or breathability
⏹️ ▶️ John or something like whatever the first year like stories about the design scripts they did or whatever. Don’t overhype
⏹️ ▶️ John it at this point. Like under promise, overdeliver. Have have this be a year where
⏹️ ▶️ John you work out the kinks, figure out what works and what doesn’t figure out what people want to use it for.
⏹️ ▶️ John See what this deal is with the app ecosystem. Like Apple has the breathing room to just
⏹️ ▶️ John spend this year doing that, Which is why an ad that is aimed at people who already are anticipating this is good.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’ll get those people excited It’ll let them it’ll be how to echo of the other ad but it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not over hyping it to people who don’t even know what it is I think they will show this like during big football games or most people
⏹️ ▶️ John will not pay any attention to it Or if they know anything like oh, yeah, I heard about that. It’s that thing whatever anyway But
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like Apple Vision Pro will change the way you live your life, right? It’s not saying that
⏹️ ▶️ John in that language to regular people It’s not making that promise at all. Didn’t even show the product, right? Or maybe the very end it does,
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess. But it’s definitely kind of an ad for the people
⏹️ ▶️ John who are already sold.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think too, the initial batch of reviews is probably gonna be all over the place. They’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not gonna all be universally positive because we know gadget reviewers, tech reviewers, tech people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on YouTube, we know price is super important to those markets. And it’s super
⏹️ ▶️ Marco important. And anytime somebody releases something that’s very expensive in a market, That’s like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco headlining theme of all the reviews. Well, it’s nice, but it’s really expensive.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so we’re gonna keep hearing that. That’s gonna be most of the reviews early on is, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I tried it, it’s cool, but it’s really expensive. And it’s accurate. It is. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so again, that’s why I think they’re gonna actually try to kind of low play it,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they don’t want every consumer in the world to get the impression this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is just some expensive thing they don’t need. So again, like I think they’re going to play it a little more slowly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Give it time to develop its ecosystem, which is not going to happen in the next three weeks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like just give it time to develop the ecosystem over a year, maybe more. Give it time for them to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe get a version two out there that can maybe get a little bit lower in price. And then we’ll start seeing them pushing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it harder and harder over time. But I think I think it’s going to be like kind of a slow ramp up to that level of
⏹️ ▶️ John And I know we’ve getting off on a tangent here. I know we’ve talked about this in the past, but as we approach launch day and
⏹️ ▶️ John as I see, you know, developers who are like submitting their apps or thinking of submitting
⏹️ ▶️ John their apps, I’m getting more and more of a terrible feeling about what the state of
⏹️ ▶️ John the app ecosystem is going to be. Oh, it’s going to be bad. Like, and, and I was
⏹️ ▶️ John thinking about this the other day, I had mistakenly thought for a moment in my mind, Oh, people
⏹️ ▶️ John can just use their Macs through it. Cause it’s got that screen, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the thing where you
⏹️ ▶️ John can see your Mac screen inside the thing. And but but the thing I had in my mind was like.
⏹️ ▶️ John This product would almost be better sold as a display for a Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John or as a or like you’d have a Mac built into it, like a little like the motherboard of a MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, like a little container with the battery or whatever, like like that Mac apps, like the, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, Mac apps that need a really big screen that have multiple windows and stuff like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John That that is actually the best use case for this with no software until and unless
⏹️ ▶️ John an app ecosystem can build up around it. I don’t know, instead they’re saying, well, it’s iPad apps. You can run your iPad apps
⏹️ ▶️ John on it if they allow you to do it, blah, blah, blah. But iPad apps seem to me, I don’t know,
⏹️ ▶️ John like I’ve never had a dream of, this iPad app would be better if I could have it on a bigger screen
⏹️ ▶️ John or if I could have, you know, multiple copies of, like, cause they’re just so, they’re so focused on a single
⏹️ ▶️ John screen and yeah, you’ve got slide over and split view and stuff like that. But Mac apps are the ones that you wanna have a million different windows
⏹️ ▶️ John and big things out in front of you and everything like that. but this is not a Mac. And you know, it’s trying to be its own
⏹️ ▶️ John platform. And in the meantime, it’s like, well, I can run some iPad apps if you want. And just that first year,
⏹️ ▶️ John like especially with Apple’s general inability to foster a healthy app ecosystem
⏹️ ▶️ John on anything except for a device they sell billions of copies of, makes me worry a lot about
⏹️ ▶️ John not so much the hardware and does it fit on people’s faces and everything like that? Cause that is gonna be a problem, but that can be
⏹️ ▶️ John worked out. But like, once all that’s worked out, what do I see inside this thing? What software do I
⏹️ ▶️ John want to use inside it? And I keep thinking Mac software, Mac software would work well in there.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s, you know, the next version of this could be the best screen you’ve ever had for your Mac. Really
⏹️ ▶️ John complicated, lots of windows, using a mouse and keyboard in front of you that you can see because you can see your
⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard through the transparency mode thing, or you can touch type or whatever. Like, I don’t know, maybe I’m entirely wrong considering
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve never used one of these things, but I’m really worried about what’s going to be inside that headset.
⏹️ ▶️ John And if it’s a $3,500 really good movie viewer, then it’s kind of like me buying the OLED iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John to watch TV on it. I mean, it’s a use case, but I’m not sure it’s gonna be that common.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would suggest, don’t preset expectations in your mind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too much beforehand about how you might use this device before you’ve actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco used one. I think it will surprise you in a few ways. I mean, I would love to watch TV shows
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it, but $3,500 is a lot. Yeah, but you know, I frankly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t see that Mac use case being that big of a use case.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t mean the one that they’re shipping, which is like screen sharing with the Mac. I mean like Mac apps running on
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No, yeah, I know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I, yeah. And you know, I can imagine a future version of that feature
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where Mac windows actually get broken out and can free float in the space.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like maybe I’m describing it wrong. I don’t mean like Mac windows with like the stoplight buttons
⏹️ ▶️ John and all that stuff floating in front of you. I mean like, what’s the way to say it? Mac style apps, you know what I mean?
⏹️ ▶️ John Like the correct donor, the correct donor platform for apps on the Vision Pro is
⏹️ ▶️ John not the iPad, but it’s instead the Mac. So that it just, because the limitations
⏹️ ▶️ John of iPad applications, like the fact that they don’t even have the concept of Windows. Vision Pro has Windows. I know they’re not
⏹️ ▶️ John quite Windows, but like it has individual floating things. That’s its whole deal. It’s got the ornaments and separate accessory windows,
⏹️ ▶️ John and you don’t have to lay things on top of each other. You can just put it next to it because you can turn your head a little bit there’s more crap over there.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a Mac paradigm. iPad doesn’t work like that, so I’m thinking like native Vision Pro apps
⏹️ ▶️ John that are essentially Vision Pro ified versions of the Mac apps, not Vision Proified versions
⏹️ ▶️ John of the iPad apps. But again, I haven’t used either one of these things, so I’m just speculating.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you’ll be surprised like when when this comes out when you do at some point somehow use one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you’ll be surprised and so again, like just I strongly urge people like don’t make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too many assumptions about how you might use this until you have a chance to actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use one. And if that means that you can’t justify paying $3,500 for it upfront
⏹️ ▶️ Marco without knowing quite how you’ll use it, that’s understandable. You probably shouldn’t jump on the pre-order then.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Leave more room for me, please. But, you know, it’s a very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco different device and paradigm than most people have ever used before. So, you know, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the Apple Watch came out, or especially before anybody had actually used it, when it was announced, everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was kind of assuming they would use the Apple Watch much like a tiny iPhone. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then we got the Apple Watch, and anybody who tried that was very quickly disavowed of that notion,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it was a terrible tiny iPhone, but it was really great for other things. People thought the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was basically a giant iPhone, and they would use it just like a giant iPhone. Well, I mean, you kind of can, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better if you use it like an iPad. It’s kind of its own thing. You know, even like the Apple TV,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the Apple TV, the one with apps, you know, whatever generation that was that added the apps. When
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was first announced and shown off, everyone’s like, hmm, maybe I’ll do some computing on my TV. And that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t really pan out that way. Instead, we do other things with it. This is gonna be the same kind of thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are trying to project onto it the paradigms we already know from devices we already
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have and have used, and saying, okay, well, I’m gonna use this like a giant Mac. It’s like, well, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco might, but probably not. There’s probably gonna be other ways you use it that are like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. You’re gonna use it like you’re gonna use a Vision Pro. You’re not gonna use it like any of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the other platforms because it’s very different from all the other platforms in so many different ways. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t go into it saying, okay, well, I can justify this because it’ll be like a really big monitor. And it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, well, I mean, maybe you might do that, but go in with a more open mind. It might
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go a different direction for you. And until everyone has these and you can try them, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can see all the video reviews, you can see what kind of apps come out for it everything. Don’t make too many assumptions early
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, that’s that’s the whole thing. Apple needs to provide get enough people to write applications
⏹️ ▶️ John that are for this. But I’m saying in the meantime, in the meantime, Apple’s stopgap is in the meantime, people can
⏹️ ▶️ John use iPad apps like they’re in their own in their announcement, which I think maybe we’ll get to if we keep going here. So like, oh, it
⏹️ ▶️ John has a million apps. What they mean is a million people have said, yes, you can run my iPad apps on your
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, I’m assuming like because how do they know how many apps? So they just they just opened up submissions the same day they put out the press release.
⏹️ ▶️ John We haven’t even opened submissions for the for the Vision Pro App Store yet, but we know there’ll be a million apps. Why? Those are
⏹️ ▶️ John iPad apps. That’s their stopgap. That’s their way of like, you get this. What can I run out besides the built in apps? Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John you got a million iPad apps that you can run. And that’s not what we want you to do with it. But it’s something
⏹️ ▶️ John until those apps start shipping. So it’s up to Apple to foster an ecosystem that makes people make
⏹️ ▶️ John actual native Vision Pro apps. So what I’m saying is I think the correct donor platform for the stopgap apps is
⏹️ ▶️ John more it would be better to be the Mac because those apps are designed to have multiple
⏹️ ▶️ John windows arranged maybe not all around you but arranged all over the place but we’ll say maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John just multiple iPad apps is exactly fine as a stopgap and but I would think if you if anyone I mean I know
⏹️ ▶️ John because of the API things that’s not how it works but someone porting a complicated app
⏹️ ▶️ John Final Cut Pro for Vision Pro should it be should you start from the iPad version of that
⏹️ ▶️ John app or or should you start from the Mac version? You’re making a native Vision Pro version, but which version should you start from? And
⏹️ ▶️ John I think you should start from the Mac one, but they certainly won’t because of the API differences. So that’s a whole
⏹️ ▶️ John other kettle of fish. But spiritually, I feel like the canvas provided by
⏹️ ▶️ John the Vision Pro is so much more expansive than the canvas provided by the iPad. It makes me think more of the Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think there are some critical differences though. Like, as a lot of like the VR bloggers and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff have pointed out, the density of the displays and the sizing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them, I would think about it more like TV screens than monitors. Like you look at computer monitors,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re very dense. You look at them much closer up. TV screens are big and beautiful,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you look at them from eight or 10 feet away maybe, and it’s a very different way of using it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Imagine if computing was really fast and easy on an Apple TV,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you had an infinite size screen on the Apple TV, but you’re still sitting the couch looking at something six feet away.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco When you look at how windows are laid out in these VR headsets, like the distance
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re simulating of how far in front of you they are, relatively how large they are, and you look at things like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the density of the displays, like how many pixels they actually have, it’s nowhere near the density of computer monitors.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I would be surprised if when people actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use these, if they ended up actually wanting Mac-like density of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of controls and density of text and things like that. I think what we’re gonna want is gonna end up looking kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of halfway between iPad apps and Apple TV apps.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, with the current density, you’re right, because, you know, it’s 4K per eyeball, but as we talked about when these initially
⏹️ ▶️ John launched, your floating window does not fill your entire field division
⏹️ ▶️ John probably. So you’re not even getting a 4K screen, which is, you know, it’s an achievement that they’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John apparently achieved the text legibility that they have, but it’s not 200 pixels per inch,
⏹️ ▶️ John four feet from you,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco not even close.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’ll probably be a long time before we had that kind of hardware. I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know how long, they’ve making good advances, but yeah, but the initial version isn’t. So that, I mean, that’s why
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of these screenshots, they do look like Apple TV apps, like viewable from six feet away,
⏹️ ▶️ John big chunky controls, but they do also have lots of accessory stuff floating around.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The, yeah, they do. That’s why, I mean, it isn’t, there is no like direct paradigm, like, oh, it’s just like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big iPad or whatever. You can’t say it’s just like any of the platforms, but I really think it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna end up being more like a combination of iPad plus Apple TV
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than Mac anything. Like I think the sizing and the density and everything is all wrong for the Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, if we had displays that could support it though, it would be great
⏹️ ▶️ John to doing for doing Mac stuff in the same way if you had three Pro Display XDRs in front of you, right? If you
⏹️ ▶️ John had the density in that device to support the actual resolution of three Pro Display XDRs
⏹️ ▶️ John arms length around you, that would be amazing. And people would love it because it’s smaller and hopefully cheaper
⏹️ ▶️ John than three pronouns, the X, the R’s, and you don’t need to connect them with cables, but that’s not this generation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I do understand what you’re saying though, John, that the Mac does at a glance
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seem like a better donor platform, but I think I have to come down on where Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is in that I think we’re going to end up in this kind of weird, and I don’t necessarily mean bad, but just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe unusual halfway world between like iPad and Apple TV, like Marco was saying, and I expect that.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s another reason why TV applications, like as in watching actual movies and television shows, is great for this
⏹️ ▶️ John because you’re not going to notice the resolution deficit because it’s television.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So with that in mind, we’ve been talking and kind of glancing off the discussion about the app
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ecosystem and whatnot. So I’ve been thinking a lot about what I want to do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with regard to this. And History says, I will be the first to tell you, I’m starting right out and telling you history
⏹️ ▶️ Casey says I’m going to pre-order one because I’m a sucker. And that’s what I do. Of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are. But I’m, I’m trying to, I’m trying to be rational about this, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not something I’m typically capable of doing. And I’m probably wasting everyone’s time by even talking about this because I’ll end up ordering
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one. But like, I don’t think coming back to our conversation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little while ago about like, did people really want an iPhone, like sitting here now, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know if I want to spend $3,500 on one of these.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey starting at as, as a consumer. Now this is with my consumer hat on. I have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not yet put on my developer hat, but as a consumer, I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I would use this for that would justify $3,500. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is a tremendous amount of money, a truly tremendous amount of
⏹️ ▶️ John and for people who are saying, Oh, you buy laptops like that all the time, you know what you’re going to use the laptop for. Like it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John a speculative use case. you know you’re gonna get it out of the box and you know exactly what you’re gonna use
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it for. I mean, just for the point of comparison though, John, how much is that really nice TV that you like?
⏹️ ▶️ John know what I’m gonna use that for too. That’s what I’m saying. Like this is speculative because like, it’s not so much the price because I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John preempting people who are gonna say, you’re complaining about $3,500, but every computer you ever buy is more than that. Yeah, but we all know
⏹️ ▶️ John what we’re gonna do with the computers or the television. We know exactly what we’re gonna do with them. We know how the well they’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John do it. And we know we already have something that we’re doing and this is gonna be a better one. So we plunk down that money for
⏹️ ▶️ John those easily. But for this one, I think Casey’s question is apt, which is like, if I wasn’t a developer, even though
⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like a cool thing to get for $3,500, what am I going to do with it again? Like the fear is you get it,
⏹️ ▶️ John you try it, you try the few pieces of software for it, and then it’s a $3,500 thing sitting in the corner of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, exactly. And I think in the defense of expensive TVs and expensive computers,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whether or not Marco or I change computers like underwear, which I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey either of us does as much as I give Marco a hard time and I certainly don’t think I do. But that being
⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, any of the three of us could use any of the computers that we’ve bought recently
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for years, years and years and years. And sorry, that implies
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you are literally incapable of using a Vision Pro for years. That’s not what I mean. But my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M1 MacBook Pro that I just recently got rid of, I did not need
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get rid of that. I chose to because I’m a sucker for space black and I’m an idiot, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t need to. I could have held onto that computer for another probably two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to maybe even four years, which would have made a sum total of what four to six years of in-service,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which for a laptop, I know how much we hate laptops, John, but like for a laptop, I think two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to somewhere between four and six years is a pretty good run. It’s not a humongously
⏹️ ▶️ Casey long but it’s not a bad run by any stretch of the imagination. Your TV, when did you buy your fancy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pants, uh, non-plasma TV? That was what, two years ago, a year ago?
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, 2022, I think. Okay. So it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was, uh, almost two years ago. And what’s the likelihood you’re going to replace that TV in the next two years?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Very low. Exactly. And so whether now you might choose to do it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a couple of years, because there’s a technology that you’re really jazzed by and you’re really understood.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I’m saying like we could elect one could elect to replace these things, but I don’t think it’ll be compulsory
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whereas with the vision Pro I am less convinced that it will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hold up for much more than two years
⏹️ ▶️ John like a series zero watch. It’s the first worst one,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Exactly. This
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is gonna be hopefully that will be that will be the worst one they ever make and right and and if they if they Do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any kind of like significant? turns in the course they’re taking, like for instance, if they did get rid of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco front-facing display or things like that, if they were able to integrate the battery into the unit, there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are some turns that they might be making with subsequent revision of the product that will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make this one feel and look really old within probably a much shorter time than the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco useful lifetime of the next one that will come out, just because it is version zero.
⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t buy the Apple Vision Pro edition. Yeah. Some advice. It’s not going to hold up.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a consumer, like I don’t, I, it’s hard for me to justify
⏹️ ▶️ Casey spending $3,500. And the, funnily enough, the thing that I think most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey strongly makes me want this as a consumer, again, we’ll talk developer in a second,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but as a consumer, I think the thing that I’m most interested in for this is if I could put aside the fact
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I’ll look like a total doofus wearing this thing, if I could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bring this to like a library or Wegmans or a coffee shop or what have you. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I could not care about what I looked like, which I don’t think I’m capable of, but in this fantasy world where I don’t care what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey other people are thinking as they’re looking at me, I guess I’m always in the completely,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what do they call it, the experience where you can’t see anything around you. Immersive, there it is. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey always in the immersive experience. I can never see the people that are looking at me like I’m an idiot. But anyway, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing that I think is most appealing about this to me is having a 4K version of my laptop screen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you know, wherever I want, wherever I go. And that strikes me as though it would be extremely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool because then I can have my 4k laptop screen right in front of me and I can have maybe the iPad version
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Slack off to the side. I can have an iPad version or vision pro, strictly speaking version of Safari off to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other side. And now I’ve got one heck of a nice workstation that I can bring
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty much anywhere. And that does appeal to me. I don’t think it appeals to me for $3,500, but it appeals
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me. nonetheless. And so as a person,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want Marco to buy one and I want him to tell us what he thinks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, you know that’ll happen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh, right. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want like a local friend. I don’t have one in mind, but just, you know, I want one of my local friends to buy one. A
⏹️ ▶️ John local friend with the same shape face as you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And the same prescription.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no, you can snap
⏹️ ▶️ John in and out the prescription lenses, can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah. But no, I take your point though. You know, I want a local friend to get one so I can play with it. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know that I want one for me yet. And I’m not saying that’s forever. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know if I want one for me yet. So all that in mind, now I put on my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey developer hat and everything gets real muddy real quick. Because
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not muddy. A developer hat is you need one because you’re developing an app for the end.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but but for what income?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, so it’s both sides of this, right? So on the one side, yes, I agree with what you said, John, that I,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m going to have, I don’t know if I’ll have it on launch, probably not at launch day, but I will have a version of call sheet that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey works reasonably well, hopefully on the vision pro. And I think it makes a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sense in the vision pro because if you can have, and I’ve had people write, write to me and confirm that this is possible,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I genuinely, truly do not remember it from my experience at the lab. If it is possible to have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a non-immersive video player, and then you can slide call sheet right next to it, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people are telling me that’s possible. Uh, you can slide call sheet right next to it and you can be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey looking at a video and looking at call sheet at the same time, you know, mind exploding. It’s, it’s, it’s amazing. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that sounds really cool. And it sounds like it would be a really great idea
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have it there. And it would be very useful to have it there. Additionally, as the chat room is pointing out, if
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by some miracle, I can get it there for launch and it isn’t a pile of garbage, which are two big ifs,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then I could maybe get Apple to feature it or have, you know, reviewers featured. I mean, imagine if iJustine
⏹️ ▶️ Casey gets a copy of this and somehow stumbles upon call sheet. I don’t know how that would happen, but just for the sake of discussion, then suddenly I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey having my Widgetsmith moment. I don’t expect that, but you never know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, on a platform that has no users. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John have a Widgetsmith moment on a platform with a million users. Sorry.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even Widgetsmith won’t have a Widgetsmith moment on this platform for some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John time. No, you
⏹️ ▶️ John could sell to 100% of the user base and you’re still not there. Exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the problem is, and I was actually I had a monthly FaceTime with James Thompson, friend of the show, James Thompson, who does
⏹️ ▶️ Casey peak outcome on many other things. And he and I were chatting this morning, and he pointed out to me a really good thing, which is so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey obvious, but I hadn’t thought about that. Even if call sheet arrives on the vision pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and even if I can, uh, you know, I can get it to the point that it’s not embarrassing,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even despite those things, it’s the same skew as it is on iOS, on iPad, OS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Mac OS, it’s all universal. It’s all the same skew. So. A lot,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe even all of these users have already paid me. They I’ve already gotten the money from them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Why is it necessarily the same skew? You can make a dedicated Vision OS version.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey could, but I don’t plan on it. I mean, I could, I absolutely could, but I was not planning on it.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, you totally should. Why wouldn’t you?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But you would have a shared subscription model. Like that’s, you can have the same bundle ID and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have it still be running native. Like you can, like there’s all, but you’d have to like submit it to the Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco side of the app store separate. That’s the only thing that has to be separate.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, I think, I feel like universal apps where you write one app and it runs on all the platforms, you can pay for it
⏹️ ▶️ John once. Customers love them, but as a single indie developer, it’s economically unfeasible,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, honestly, it depends a lot on how much you, how much work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have to do from your existing code base to support this new platform. And that’s why,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I think we’re gonna see a lot of people doing what I’m gonna be doing, which is I’m going to permit my iPad app to run for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while. And I do intend to have a native version of Overcast for Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not going to make it anywhere near launch day. So for now, iPad version, and then we’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Very similar in a lot of ways to if you have an iPhone app and you wanna make it run on the iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, if the iPad’s gonna be a huge part of your market, maybe put a lot of time and thought into
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. If it’s only gonna be kind of an accessory part of your market, you don’t have to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything custom for the iPad, you can just let the phone app run on the iPad with minimal modifications
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and maybe it won’t be ideal, but it’ll be fine. That’s something we can do here. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, this platform is gonna have very low sales volume for a while. So it’s not going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be able to financially justify huge investments of custom work for it for an existing app necessarily,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unless there’s a really big market for it on this. And as mentioned last time, I don’t think I have a big market. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think Casey, yours is bigger than mine. So, you know, your calculus will be different than mine here. But, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I bring Overcast to Vision OS, I have some ideas on how I can do it and kind of, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of the experience I want it to be like. And to be honest, they’re all pretty simple ideas that will require
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bit of a more limited experience than like the full everything app with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every single feature crammed into the, you know, to whatever window size I can get it crammed into. Like, I’m looking at a very different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco design, but it would be a lower effort design for lots of reasons. That’s gonna be easier to justify
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because this platform is gonna have no users, basically, for a while. And so, but you know, so what you’re saying, Casey,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like there is a clear market for you to bring CallSheet to VisionOS with a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco native app that uses the same IAP as your iOS app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and much or most or all of the same code even, I don’t know how much effort
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will be worth for you to invest two months of development time into it. That is probably not worth
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey At least at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I don’t think it’s worth it at all. And I guess the question I’m really asking both indirectly and now
⏹️ ▶️ Casey directly is, I think I should put a modicum of effort
⏹️ ▶️ Casey into it to the order of two weeks, not two months, And I think that’s fair,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t know if I even, I think putting two weeks or so of effort is fair,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but do I really want to spend $3,500 worth of money or leaving aside the effort? Do I want to spend all that money just to get call sheet on here? Like, I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it’s, because I don’t think I’ll recoup. Well, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not worth it for the two week effort app, but I think, I mean, aren’t you envisioning a future where you would spend more
⏹️ ▶️ John than two weeks to make an actual really good Vision OS version of your thing to be
⏹️ ▶️ John alongside the video when people are watching it?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Potentially yes, but that would, I don’t, I wouldn’t be justified in doing that unless
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I felt like I was getting some sort of financial return from the effort.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, what you’d getting is a, you know, first mover advantage or you’d be early in the market. No, the first year
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not going to make that money back probably, but year two or three, you’re already there.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re the one that people know when they read the reviews. Oh, if you’re watching movies, you want to watch a thing. IMDb just has a shovelware
⏹️ ▶️ John port of their iPad app and it’s terrible, but call sheet looks okay. Like you’re, you’re getting in early in the hopes that
⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll, you’ll be the de facto look things up about the video that I’m watching in a vision pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So I think from a developer’s point of view, even though I don’t particularly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to spend $3,500 on this, particularly after spending a whole pile of money on this laptop, which I probably shouldn’t have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey done. Um, I, I think I sitting here now I’m leaning
⏹️ ▶️ Casey towards buying one. And then the other thing that I need to consider is I actually have a third hat, which is the one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m actually wearing right now, which is as a podcaster. And I think it would make for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey much better programming on this very show if at least one, preferably two, or in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a perfect world, three of us have one of these to play with. Well, I
⏹️ ▶️ John have a solution to that, by the way. It’s called Apple sends us review units. If only, John, if
⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t get to keep them forever. Oh, I’ll talk to Gruber about that. Define forever. On an infinite
⏹️ ▶️ John timeline, Gruber will return all his products.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, I agree with you that I’d love a review unit. But ultimately,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, for better or worse, I can continue to whine and moan about this. But ultimately, it seems clear that we are not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Apple’s radar in that capacity. And so I have to just understand I can’t I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait for that to happen. So I have to understand
⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna happen. Don’t wait for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. So I need to take matters into my own hands. And I think as a podcaster, and as a developer,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey two of the three hats that I’m wearing, say, I should probably try to pick one of these up. Now, I haven’t talked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the family CFO yet, and I have a feeling they might have some conflicting opinions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about this. But sitting here now, it seems like—and I still haven’t made a final
⏹️ ▶️ Casey decision—but it seems like it’s probably prudent for me to get one so that this way I can make Call Sheet as good
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as it can reasonably be done. Because I can tell you, I don’t think it’s unfair for me to say
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that spending the day in the lab gave me a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of useful feedback. I’m saying just from myself, you know, like in, in using
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the app, it was. Incredibly useful to experience it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the actual platform as compared to the simulator. And the simulator is very good for what it is, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey having experienced it on the actual device gave me all sorts of clues and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ideas and things to do that I never would have considered had I not had the thing on my face.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I don’t think Apple would be grumpy at me for saying that. So in so many ways,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I’ll probably also be lining up on the virtual queue a week from Friday or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is, and trying to put my hands on one. And I will probably get the cheapest one they will possibly sell me, which is still a damn
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco price. Yeah, I would call it the least
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey not the cheapest. Yeah, exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly. But I don’t know. And it’s funny because I seem so morose and down on it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I actually don’t mean to. And again, now I’m getting into dangerous territory because I don’t want to talk about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what happened at the lab. But there is a lot about this platform to be very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey excited about. And I think Marco was hinting at the same earlier. There’s a lot to be excited about here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s just I find the price so off-putting, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey may sound nuts, but I think of myself as a relatively frugal person. And I know especially in the last six
⏹️ ▶️ Casey months, some of my expenditures may indicate otherwise. But generally speaking, I don’t enjoy spending
⏹️ ▶️ Casey money just for spending money’s sake. And I really try to be prudent
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and frugal with my expenditures. And it’s so much money. It’s so much money
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on what seems to be a hope and a prayer. And that’s the thing that just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey freaks me out. And I hope so much that I can tell you there’s a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of potential in this platform. And again, now I’m starting to get into dangerous territory again. But there’s a lot of potential in this platform.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I really hope that between Apple and third party developers that gets realized because there’s a lot there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think first of all, like it, how, however much we want to hem and haw about the price
⏹️ ▶️ Marco will not matter at all, because if there’s any truth whatsoever to the rumors that they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can only make say a million a year, like there’s enough rich people in the world who will jump on this, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it won’t matter what the YouTubers say and what we all say about the price.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey That’s an interesting point. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If they can truly only make it in relatively small volumes, there are enough buyers out there who will buy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it at that price, it won’t matter. So, you know, setting that aside for developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco point of view, you, I think your suspicion is correct, you will not make $3,500 in sales on this platform in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all likelihood in the first year. Uh, that seems, it seems very unlikely. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so again, gauge your level of effort accordingly for us in particular. I think it makes total
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense to buy it just because again, like this podcast It’s a big part of our careers and jobs and income
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so we need just for that Honestly, like even if none of us had any other use for it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco other than to try it and talk about it We should probably all get it just for that purpose alone Nerds
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like us are gonna try to Somehow rationalize this price because it’s cool
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but You don’t need to rationalize the price. It can just be cool There
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are concert tickets that are this expensive and people pay them because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s cool and they want it Like that’s it. That’s enough of a reason sometimes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We can try, again, try to justify it as much, whatever you need to do to justify it, justify it. That’s fine,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but many of the buyers of the Vision Pro, especially in this first year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are gonna be people who are buying it because they think it’s cool and they want it. They don’t need to say, well, I’ll be able
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get my work done or I can fund it with my development. Nope. You don’t and you can’t. It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool and you want it. That’s okay. As long as you can lose that amount of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco money and not like harm your family as a result
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey or something or not get yourself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into like debt or like, you know, if you can afford it, it’s okay to spend money on things that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make you happy and are cool to you. That’s all it needs to be. And there’s enough people in the world
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who can spend that money who will do it just solely for those reasons. They’ll be fine. They’ll be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sold out and backordered the entire year. So it doesn’t matter if we think it’s too expensive or if some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco YouTuber with the O-face on their thumbnail says it’s too expensive. Is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey this really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth it? You know you’re going to see a thousand of those and the answer will be they’re going to say it’s not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All the commenters are going to say it’s not and you still can’t buy one because they’re backordered. So it doesn’t matter.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Enough people think it’s cool that they’re going to sell all of them. Now whether there is an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app market for you as a developer, that’s a different question And of course, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so hard to step around lab experiences here. But so I’ll make an analogy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for something I can talk about because I had no pre-release access whatsoever, the iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was running Instapaper at that time, that was my app. And the iPad came out and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you recall, because we remember previous Apple product launches and their hype cycles,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John, as you recall, the iPad was announced a few months before it was available. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco believe it was announced in January, it came out in April, something like that. So during that time, we had the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco SDK for it, so we could run like the iPad simulator, exactly like we have the Vision Pro today. Like we have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Vision OS simulator, but we don’t have the hardware yet as developers. So just like that, we had a few months
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where we had the simulator for the iPad, and we could get our apps ready for the app store and get them there on day one,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great. So I did that with Instapaper. I was, and you know, we did all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sorts of things, We made cardboard mock-ups so we would know how big the iPad was in our hands
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out the screenshot on paper at the exact right size of the iPad screen so we could see, is this big enough?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And all of that, it felt like we were really preparing for this platform. And then I remember
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I got the iPad on launch day and I launched into paper on it and I used it for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco five minutes and I was like, this is all wrong. Everything I had done for months with the simulator and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with paper mock-ups and cardboard and everything, It was all immediately upon using the real hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m like, oh yeah, this is not a good design for this. This doesn’t work. This is different. This should be like this. It was so clear
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me that the design I had made based on the simulator and guesses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was just not right. I had the same feeling when I ran the app that I have in progress for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Overcast on the Real Vision Pro. Everything I thought about the design of how it should be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was wrong and bad. I would strongly suggest to anybody who
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually is going to take this seriously as a developer, like if you really want to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a Vision OS version of your app that is not just your iPad operating on a window, if you’re actually using like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the native controls, you want it to actually be a first class Vision OS app, even, not even,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a third class Vision OS app, you need the hardware. That’s it. It is so different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than seeing your app in the simulator. I have done zero
⏹️ ▶️ Marco further development on Overcast for VisionOS after the lab. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I learned in the lab, oh I’m wrong about everything, and I need the hardware to know that, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I need to develop whatever I’m going to develop for it, I’m going to need to develop it with the hardware. So I have totally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco paused VisionOS development of Overcast until I have a Vision Pro. And I strongly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco suggest for all developers out there, if you are gonna take this platform seriously and try to make a good version of your app,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t even bother doing it now. Do it when you have the hardware and definitely get the hardware. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna need it. You’re not gonna be able to make a good app with simulators alone. You just can’t on this platform.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s too different. It’s way too different. You don’t even realize how different it is if you haven’t had the chance
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go to a lab. So if you intend to have an app on this platform, you need the hardware, period. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t even worry about the cost. just consider it a cost of developing an app for this platform.
⏹️ ▶️ John Unless you’re making the Vision Pro beer drinking app, in which case just do it in the simulator, it’ll be fine. I’m sure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ll get right on approving that in the app
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s an impulse purchase. People will get it because they want to try something fun on the Vision Pro. Your app will stink for the reasons
⏹️ ▶️ John Marco stated, but it doesn’t matter because you’ve they’ve already got their money.
visionOS app rules
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So then finally, Apple has some Vision Pro app submission advice,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and there’s a bunch of interesting things here. Some of which I don’t know, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really given some serious side eye to, but, um, you know, John, you put an image in the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey show notes here. It says don’t tilt or distract from your app window. Don’t depict
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cluttered surroundings and don’t show foveated rendering. Do you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John want to show the
⏹️ ▶️ John screenshots that you would submit for your app like,
⏹️ ▶️ John here’s my app in action. And they give an image to show all the don’ts, which I thought was hilarious.
⏹️ ▶️ John So first of all, the tilting, I mean, okay. I mean, I would do wonder if they’re actually enforce this, but it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s usually knows from our past conversations, the Dutch angle. Okay. So it’s tilted. Right. But the second one is the one that’s getting
⏹️ ▶️ John the most play. Don’t depict cluttered surroundings. As someone pointed out a mastodon, it would take me a week to get
⏹️ ▶️ John my house to look this uncluttered.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey This is their
⏹️ ▶️ John example of cluttered surroundings.
⏹️ ▶️ John it must pain apples like set dressers to try to make cluttered surrounds or like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess we can put an extra item on the coffee table. And it’s like, oh, it hurts me so much to do this. But here’s
⏹️ ▶️ John an extra item instead of just a plant. Now there’s a plant and a book and on the floor
⏹️ ▶️ John on the floor is an item. What item? I don’t know. But there’s an item on the floor and it’s open. And someone put
⏹️ ▶️ John the jacket on the table. I can’t look. I can’t look. It’s too cluttered. This is like the neatest house you’ve ever seen in your entire life.
⏹️ ▶️ John Do not depict cluttered surroundings. So ridiculous. And then the final one is weird
⏹️ ▶️ John to me. Foveated rendering is when you render the part that the people aren’t looking at at lower resolution.
⏹️ ▶️ John Is it even possible to grab screenshots in the Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John with foveated rendering? I thought the screenshots were always everything rendered at full res, but I mean, maybe I’m wrong.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, I don’t,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe if you capture a video feed of it, maybe it would follow your gaze, I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, I guess you could simulate it, but like, why would you do that? But yeah, no, you can’t use foveated rendering. If you don’t know where
⏹️ ▶️ John people are looking, the whole image has to be rendered at the complete resolution.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and ultimately on the clutter angle, I think that actually might
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slightly hinder the product. Because no one has that environment. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who is working in an environment that is uncluttered enough to have all these windows floating on top of it? I mean, I guess you could
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just send simulator screenshots, right? Yeah, and yes, I mean, yeah, the reality is like for App Store screenshots,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s what everyone’s going to do. They’re just going to use simulator screenshots. Uh, but you know, for, for actual
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use of the product with windows floating in space, when you’re not in an immersive environment, I think that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually going to be a somewhat of a limiting factor because like Casey gave the coffee shop example earlier. Like, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, first of all, I would never wear this in a coffee shop. Like I feel guilty wearing AirPods in a coffee shop. Like, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, this is way out of my comfort zone, but you’re going to want, if you’re actually going to be computing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in it, you’re probably going to want to be in the fully immersive mode almost all of the time when you’re out in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco world. And even in your own house, probably much of the time, it’s like, my office is not that clean. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where am I in my house that is that clean? Never, anywhere. And I think most people don’t have a space
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in their house that is anything like what Apple shows in the simulator as like possible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good environments for the Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe in a model home, if you go visit a model home or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or yeah, or like an empty museum as one of them. I guess maybe, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a very ideal view of the world that I think does not reflect people’s actual houses and offices very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed, so they continue, don’t break Apple Vision Pro over two lines. Okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John This is hilarious, okay? So the name of the product is three words with spaces of Gmail,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Vision Pro. Like if I put that text somewhere
⏹️ ▶️ John in my description, which we’ll get to in a little bit, but it’s this thing they’re actually gonna allow, Thank you so much, Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t control if it’s over two lines. I don’t know. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco non-breaking space, baby.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can you use non-breaking space? Apple amp, NBSP Vision amp, NBSP Pro. Well, then
⏹️ ▶️ John why don’t they just say that? Is that what they demand? Are they just saying, don’t break it over two lines? They don’t say
⏹️ ▶️ John it should be Apple Vision Pro with non-breaking spaces between all the words. And even then, non-breaking spaces that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if it’s rendered in some context, it doesn’t honor them. Then it’s just it’s it’s such a
⏹️ ▶️ John demand. I’m sure Apple doesn’t want them broken up, but it’s like, OK, Apple, then you don’t break them up.
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t control what you do with my text.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Also, like I think it is they have their work cut out for them. If they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want people to use all three of these words because that’s what they say in their guidance.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s Apple Vision Pro. It’s not just Vision Pro. It’s Apple Vision Pro. Everyone’s going to call it Vision Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No one’s going to call it Apple Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Pro. Well, I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is in text that they can audit, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but like it’s just like, you know, when they launch like the Apple watch. No one just called it watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that’s too generic of a word. But and so if they would have called this vision just by itself, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco vision, maybe they would have seen it sort of chance of people calling it Apple vision or not just vision. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people would have called it Apple vision with no space then. Yeah, right. But by calling it Apple vision pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco vision pro by itself is uniquely identifying enough in this time and place
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that everyone will just say vision pro like so I think that’s gonna go right out the
⏹️ ▶️ John window. And there were people pointing out that that some Apple stuff just says vision now just
⏹️ ▶️ John as Apple Vision or vision. I think even their navs just says vision like so there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple itself is trying to do the generic term to essentially make room for the fact
⏹️ ▶️ John that there will be a non pro someday.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but ultimately, I mean, maybe they should have. They should have actually called it Apple Vision, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, just to get to kind of like lay that groundwork better. Because now when everyone’s going to be calling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it Vision Pro without the Apple for, you know, however many years it’s the only product in the lineup. And then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco once they make one that’s not called Pro at the end, we’re all gonna have to retrain ourselves to start saying Apple in front of it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where we weren’t saying it. It’s just, it’s a mess. On their homepage, by the way, Apple currently
⏹️ ▶️ John has the Apple logo, no space,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, we aren’t allowed to do that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, in all fairness, they also style watch and TV that way.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, also, anyway, continue with the last of these, Casey, because they’re all fun.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This one drives me freaking batty, and it’s consistent, at least they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey consistent across all their products. It reads as follows, don’t use the article the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey before Apple Vision Pro. It’s not the iPhone, it’s iPhone. It’s not the iPad, it’s iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not the Apple Vision Pro, it’s Apple Vision Pro. I don’t know why this drives me nuts.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I should let it go, to be honest with you, but it drives me
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John nuts that they don’t do this. And that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, I’m gonna say, oh, that’s recent. Yeah, it’s recent in the past 25 years. People always just talk about software being
⏹️ ▶️ John available on the Mac, but in the past several decades, that software is available
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. Oh, it drives me bananas. Don’t refer to Apple Vision Pro generically
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a quote unquote headset.
⏹️ ▶️ John Good luck with that. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The phrase Apple Vision Pro can’t be included in your app name, but it can be included in your app description. Oh, well,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thank you. Thank you so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John much. Oh, thank you.
⏹️ ▶️ John Hey, you can’t put the word iOS in your Mac apps description or it will get rejected, but we’re allowing you to say
⏹️ ▶️ John the name of our product in your description. Not like it’s like, like a Macbeth or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s so generous to allow us to tell our customers what platform this runs on.
⏹️ ▶️ John Exactly, you know, updated for future versions of Mac OS. Don’t mention Mac OS. We
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t want people to know about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. And then you should, you should refer to your app as a spatial
⏹️ ▶️ Casey computing app. Don’t describe your app experience as augmented reality, AR, virtual reality,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey VR, extended reality, XR, mixed reality, MR.
⏹️ ▶️ John Even if it’s one or all of those things, don’t say it. Don’t say it. We can say it. Apple can
⏹️ ▶️ John say it, but you can’t say it. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, these are, these are very, um, they’re very Apple. These are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco persnickety little things that are, I think a little bit optimistic, uh, you know, on how people talk.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is Apple. This is part, one of the parts of Apple I do not care for.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey understand the motivation here on their end, but Just chill out, you guys. Chill out.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it makes sense as to give the context again here. These are app submission guidelines.
⏹️ ▶️ John You and your regular life can call it a headset all you want. We call it a headset on this program all you want. Apple would prefer us not to, but
⏹️ ▶️ John in the end, they have no control over it. They would prefer us to just call it headset. Right. But but when it
⏹️ ▶️ John comes to the App Store that they do have control over and they will reject your app if you
⏹️ ▶️ John put like Vision Pro and the Apple Vision Pro in the name of your app, like new, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John flappy birds for Apple Vision Pro. And that’s the name of your app rejected. Well, probably not, because someone’s going to let it go through because
⏹️ ▶️ John they didn’t read these guidelines.
⏹️ ▶️ John to the extent that any app store stuff is applied consistently, that’s the one thing that they can control. Meanwhile,
⏹️ ▶️ John everybody in all their reviews is going to be capitalizing Vision Pro and when it’s the first word in the sentence
⏹️ ▶️ John or Vision OS, when it’s the first word in the sentence and you’re not supposed to do that, that we’re going to be calling it a headset. People are going to be mentioned in
⏹️ ▶️ John AR and VR, and there’s nothing Apple can do about it, but somewhere. So Apple marketing person will have a
⏹️ ▶️ John single tear roll down their cheek as they read those reviews.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then very, very quickly before we go, Apple is going to offer Vision Pro demos at its retail stores for regular people.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you mean Apple Vision Pro demos?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sorry, yes. Which one of you failed me in the show notes
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the Verge. The Verge
⏹️ ▶️ Casey failed you. Fair enough. Starting at 8 a.m. on Friday, February 2, we invite you to sign up for a demo of Apple Vision Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at your local Apple store. Demo times will be available Friday through the weekend on a first-come, first-served basis. We can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait to see you there. Interesting. And it implies, by the way, and I think The Verge said this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it’s only the first weekend, which seems bananas to me. But maybe that’s the story?
⏹️ ▶️ John LARSON It’ll be sold out after that. It is probably quite an ordeal to provide those demos.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, time per person, how much staff, how much hand-holding. It’s really a big time sink
⏹️ ▶️ John to run indefinitely. I don’t know if it’s just gonna be the first weekend, but it seems like a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey COWEN Yeah, we shall see.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I only have one more question. How tall is Egypt?
⏹️ ▶️ John Someone will answer that and then they’ll get Amazon Karma for it and then you’ll be able to ask your little cylinder in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Was Superman real? Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. Superman’s alive. Why is there a past tense?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my God. All right. Thanks to our sponsor this week, Trade Coffee, and thank you to our
⏹️ ▶️ Marco members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm. and we will talk
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental And you can find the
⏹️ ▶️ John show notes at atp.fm And if you’re into
⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A
⏹️ ▶️ John mean to Accidental, accidental Tech podcasts
Post-show
⏹️ ▶️ John I have one more Vision Pro tidbit to smuggle into the after show, which I forgot to mention we were talking about it before. I know I
⏹️ ▶️ John talked about it in Slack as well, but I’m still curious what the actual focal distance is.
⏹️ ▶️ John If Apple provided it to you, you can’t tell me if they sell it to you in the labs. But anyway, as we discussed in the past,
⏹️ ▶️ John we all, at least I still think that it is a fixed focal distance inside the headset. What is
⏹️ ▶️ John that distance? Is it one feet, two feet, five feet, three feet, eight feet? And I ask again
⏹️ ▶️ John because I’m an old person and I want I want to know what prescription I should tell them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it might even be like in the Higgs somewhere, like in the design guidelines for Vision
⏹️ ▶️ Marco OS apps, it might be stated there.
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, I think they had talked to like the default distance of windows that are floating in front of you, and that you assume that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John also the focal distance, but it seems like a tech spec, like the reason I bring it up with the demos is
⏹️ ▶️ John when you sit to the demos, like we said when we talked before, they’re going to say, okay, well, what’s your prescription? And I’m like, tell me the focal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would ballpark it as like, whatever like in a typical like living
⏹️ ▶️ Marco room, like whatever you would use to watch your TV, that’s probably what you want.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was gonna say the same thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey want to measure my feet. I’m trying to help you out, man. I know, I know.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it seems like it shouldn’t be, they’re gonna have to ask people that, right? And that they’re gonna find
⏹️ ▶️ John out when they give the people the lenses and they’re like, oh, it’s still blurry and they’re gonna give them different ones. And it’s just like, just tell us the distance.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What does a princess mean? What is the
⏹️ ▶️ John focal distance of the Apple? Sorry, Apple Vision Pro, no the. Why don’t you put that in the Karma
⏹️ ▶️ John question? Someone will answer it. Do you want that answer though? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John sure. They’ll, you know, someone for Amazon Karma, someone will break into Apple Park and find out the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my God. How many cups is 3 8th cup? I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think we’ve created a monster here
⏹️ ▶️ John You could ask that to one of your cylinders. I hope I give you the right answer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well now it doesn’t know because I’m so dumbfounded by the answer. Apparently so was the Alexa system and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it also can’t answer this and is asking people For answers.