Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

531: Rock It in the Right Direction

It’s an exciting time for the preeminent podcast about Apple buttons.

Episode Description:

The ATP Store is BACK, baby! Order your merch before Saturday, 6 May.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. ATP Store 🖼️
  2. John’s maybe-probably-bug
  3. CarPlay follow-up
  4. HT-A9 follow-up
  5. Keeping dust off camera sensors
  6. HOAs
  7. Sponsor: Backblaze
  8. Studio Display rumors
  9. iPhone button rumors
  10. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  11. #askatp: Anti-malware software
  12. #askatp: Mac-app private data
  13. #askatp: M2 Mini over Studio?
  14. Ending theme
  15. Hops hates Apple TV+

ATP Store

Chapter ATP Store image.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had to re-expand my Audio Hijack window from the tiny little size that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fit on the LG UltraFine last week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, the struggle! The struggle with your mere 5Ks, but now you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey back with all six of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John But still not tiny enough. I know they did an update to Audio Hijack, probably partially in response to me

⏹️ ▶️ John complaining that you couldn’t make the window small enough, and so they made it so you can make the window smaller.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I can make it narrow enough now, but I can’t make it short enough. I got

⏹️ ▶️ John to fit it into the little corner of my screen where it goes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, you know, I was going to unload on you two about how ridiculous you are that you two with your 6K monitors are somehow

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oppressed for real estate, apparently.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have a few windows open. I’m not sure if you heard. Oh, God. Yeah. I don’t even want to think about it. I can’t move them all anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll talk about that in a little bit.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey They’re still open.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Too

⏹️ ▶️ Casey soon, John. Too soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m picturing like a tile puzzle. Like there’s just there’s no room to move them. That’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Right. No, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not what I mean. I’m talking about the thing that got cut out of last week that is returning in this. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, here it is. I was going to make so much fun of you for you and your 6Ks a piece, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have two 5K monitors, so do I really have 10Ks in front of me? Like am I one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to throw stones?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pretty sure you, I assume you have significantly more real estate than we do total. But you can’t look at it all at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is true. I do need to turn my head, but I have what I consider to be my primary monitor and then my other stuff monitor.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You should get some kind of weird glasses, binoculars thing so that one goes to one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco eye, one goes to the other, and you can make a stereoscopic image with your two 5Ks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I should look into that. Casey’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a predator, he’s not prey. His

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey eyes are

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey front

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of his head. Always

⏹️ ▶️ John on offense, never defense.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Always

⏹️ ▶️ John on offense. There it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so speaking of being on offense, guess what time it is, baby?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s merch time. The 8-piece store is back and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John got a hold of it so nobody’s gonna care, but I have to put on the happy face anyway, so here we go. We have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all the Mac Pro shirts you could ever want. We have a brand new design,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Mac Pro Believe shirt. I have to explain this

⏹️ ▶️ John one, Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay,

⏹️ ▶️ John please feel free. So in 2019, when they redid the Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the things I did, I don’t know, I’ve always said that was the launch of WWDC, right? I think I did this for like the

⏹️ ▶️ John holiday store. I’m like, the new Mac Pro was out, right? At that point, I didn’t even have one, but you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, we knew what the design looked like. It was all over Apple’s website. I decided I’m gonna try to make some kind of merchandise

⏹️ ▶️ John related to the Mac Pro. So what I did was I made a big vector drawing of a front view of the big

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro tower with all the holes in it and everything at a pretty high level of detail, still just

⏹️ ▶️ John line art, right? But I made the whole thing from top to bottom, front view. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I could not figure out how to make a shirt that because it just looks weird.

⏹️ ▶️ John I tried all sorts of designs. I tried just showing holes. I just tried just showing one of the holes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It turns out it’s a weird design of a computer.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is, but like it was hard to make, it was hard to put it on a shirt in a way that worked in any, so I

⏹️ ▶️ John just forgot about it, right? Well, but I kept the files around. So for

⏹️ ▶️ John this WWDC, I had an idea for a message that I wanted to

⏹️ ▶️ John send to Apple. And I said, you know what I can use for that message? that old Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro thing. So I dug it back out and I found a way to make it into a shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not the world’s greatest shirt, but it is a shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really selling it, John. Really?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s the message I’m sending. Well, the message I’m sending is at this point, so that was 2019. Here we are in 2023 and we’re all waiting for

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro that Apple said, what, two years ago at the end of that that presentation for whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John they were announcing, like there’s one more Mac to go. And that’s the Mac Pro. That story. It’s a story for another day. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it. That’s it. That’s a that’ll have to wait for another day. And we’ve all been waiting and waiting and waiting.

⏹️ ▶️ John It could be that WWDC this year, they announced the Mac Pro or maybe they don’t. Either

⏹️ ▶️ John way, my dream is to have somebody, maybe even me, but right now I’m not currently going

⏹️ ▶️ John to WWDC because I have no ticket. But I would like somebody or some buddies

⏹️ ▶️ John to be wearing this shirt and be visible at Apple Park in person at WWDC for their little

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re going to show you the video in person type thing. because what’s on the shirt is a front

⏹️ ▶️ John view of the top of the current Mac Pro tower, and then a single word underneath it, it says

⏹️ ▶️ John believe. And what am I trying to say? I’m trying to say Apple, we here out in the audience, we

⏹️ ▶️ John believe in the Mac Pro. We want it to exist. We want you to ship it. We don’t want you to cancel

⏹️ ▶️ John it. We don’t want to have to wait five years between revisions all the time. We believe, and if we believe hard enough,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe the Mac Pro will return. Now, if the Mac Pro is launched at WWC, we’re like, hey, I was a believer.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was wearing the shirt and then the announcement, yay, we did it. And if it’s not announced, we can say, we still believe

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple shipped this computer. We

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco want it to exist. Because I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey know,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is what I feel like. I feel like Apple, you know, at WWDC, granted, there’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ John very, very few people who care at all about the Mac Pro. But I think they exist. And I think Apple doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know they exist.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because at what point does anyone ever bring up the Mac Pro to Apple? It might seem like, oh, I hear all these developers are

⏹️ ▶️ John here with their laptops and they’re gonna be writing their apps for their phones. That’s what it’s all about. I want the Mac Pro people

⏹️ ▶️ John to say, we exist. We exist in large enough numbers. There’s at least one of us

⏹️ ▶️ John at your own Apple Park with a shirt, with a picture of a product you seem not to care about and go years between

⏹️ ▶️ John revising and seem to always want to be canceling or having second thoughts about shipping. But

⏹️ ▶️ John you said you’re gonna ship it. We believe you’re gonna ship it. So if I actually end up going to WWC, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John going to wear one of these

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Mac Pro sleeve shirts.

⏹️ ▶️ John If it’s freezing cold, like San Francisco, I’ll have a long sleeve shirt on top of it, which will kind of defeat the purpose, I’ll do what I can, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I got no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have to do the long sleeve under it. Like it’s early 2000 I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John can’t do that. I can’t I can’t pull that off. No, you have to

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the rules What I ask is for somebody out there who’s listening to this and who does who did

⏹️ ▶️ John win the wwc lottery and is going to be? an apple park Please at least one of you get talk amongst

⏹️ ▶️ John yourselves figure out who it’s going to be At least one of you buy this shirt

⏹️ ▶️ John Wear it prominently and make sure apple people see it and when they ask you about it it. You can either

⏹️ ▶️ John lie and say I really care about the Mac Pro and I want you to ship it. Or you can tell the truth and say I don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John about the Mac Pro, but John Syracuse doesn’t listen to his podcast. So please ship it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That’s my wish. That’s why the shirt exists.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ve got it in with black ink and white ink. That’s why there’s two different shirts. The black ink is on

⏹️ ▶️ John white, gray and yellow and the white ink is on a whole bunch of different colors. I think this will be another one of

⏹️ ▶️ John those shirts that goes down in history, kind of like my Mac Pro trash can avenging angel shirt that not a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ John bought. But if you have it, But if you’re in the know, you’re in the know. Anyway, this is my shirt. This is my

⏹️ ▶️ John message for this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, you shared privately with us that you had a very specific

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hope for this shirt. You’ve shared the broad hope. But if you had a reach goal for the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shirt and the visibility of the shirt, would you like to share what the reach goal is with the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John class? I don’t remember what you’re referring to. What was my reach

⏹️ ▶️ Casey goal? Yes. You wanted a particular Apple employee to see the shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I want them all to see it. I don’t have… Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But one in particular you were really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John enthusiastic about. to single

⏹️ ▶️ John somebody out?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I don’t know. Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you did. You said you wanted to see a Mr. John Ternus

⏹️ ▶️ John see the shirt. Well, John Ternus, I think he also believes in the Mac Pro. So I would like him to see it so

⏹️ ▶️ John he can point to his friends and go, see, look at this person. Look, see, I’m not the only one. Because sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John it feels like John Ternus is the only one at Apple who does care about the Mac Pro. And maybe he can, you know, point to it and,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, talk to his peers in the org chart and say, you want to cancel the Mac Pro. There was that one

⏹️ ▶️ John person at Apple Park that one time who wore a shirt with a picture of this product on it. So now we have to

⏹️ ▶️ John ship it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So maybe if you’re not interested in this shirt, maybe what you could do to show solidarity

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with everyone’s favorite podcaster, John Syracuse, you could buy one of these shirts, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have it shipped to John Ternus care of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Apple computer. No, no, no, no.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John Ternus care of Apple computer at whatever the hell they’re, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Apple computer. Oh, sorry. Yes. So you, you, you get what I’m driving at.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you don’t want to buy the shirt for yourself, that’s fine. for John and sent the other John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John Ternus and send it to Apple Park,

⏹️ ▶️ John baby. He’s not the one who needs the show. I mean, it’d be nice for him to have one. You go there and hand him one and say, here’s a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. He’s never going to wear that because he’s a fancy executive. They don’t wear T-shirts, but whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, he could give it to one of his kids or uses a rag to wash his car or something like that. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John It seems like he’s the one who was talking about the Mac Pro. I feel like he believes in the Mac Pro. Maybe C-Fed doesn’t believe in

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro. Maybe Tim Cook doesn’t believe in the Mac Pro. Maybe someone should show up at Apple Park

⏹️ ▶️ John at WWDC carrying a 2019 Mac Pro like that person was carrying the Mac SE at the store opening in

⏹️ ▶️ John India, and he’ll be so happy to see us carrying this 50-pound long giant thing

⏹️ ▶️ John of aluminum. Oh, please, ship this computer. Anyway, that’s that shirt. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so seriously, if you’re not interested in the shirt, that’s fine. If you believe in John Syracuse and his mission for a silly computer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that nobody should buy, then buy this shirt and send it to, I think it’s 1 Apple Park Way, according

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to Wedge in the the chat, so send it there and address it to whomever you would like. But yes, so we have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Mac Pro Believe. We have that, like John said, in light ink and dark ink and various different colors.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then we also brought back the ATP six color shirt, but the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey logo isn’t the six colors. It’s different shirt colors. That’s a little bit curious naming on our

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part. Sorry about that. But anyway, but the classic ATP logo is the point I’m driving at. And then in solidarity

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and celebration of Pro Max, because apparently this is John’s propaganda season,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then we also brought back from the Disney, I mean from the ATP vault, the Pro Max

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Triumph shirt, again in white or black material, and that is the six-color

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rainbow silhouette, if you will, of all the different Pro Max, even though I really don’t care about the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro, this is actually a very good shirt, and also, oh there it is, the the ATP logo shirt is down there,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you are welcome, Welcome everybody, I have convinced the boys to allow

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me to bring back the ATP polo, mostly because I need one, and the ATP hoodie, mostly because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I need one, and also we still have a handful of mugs left. So check all of this out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can go to However, if you are a member,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, tell us what members should do, please.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to your member control panel at ATP.FM.member and you will get a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco discount code that you can use during the sale. So please take advantage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want. I mean, we’re not going to force you or anything. But you can save, what is it, 15%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on all this stuff, right? I believe that’s right. So save 15% by being a member. And that also means

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that if you’re about to buy a whole bunch of merchandise, it might make sense to just become a member, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be kind of getting the membership for no additional net cost for a while if you can save 15% on all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your merchandise.

⏹️ ▶️ John We are good web people. So slash store has links to the member page where you get your

⏹️ ▶️ John discount, has links to become a member, has all of this information in a single paragraph of text because we’re not hiding

⏹️ ▶️ John this. So you just, slash store is the only URL you need to know. All the information you need should be there, including

⏹️ ▶️ John things like, hey, is this mug microwave safe? Yes, the mug is microwave safe.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is it hand, is it a dishwasher safe? No, it’s hand wash only. Anyway, all that info is there. The mugs,

⏹️ ▶️ John by the way, we didn’t order any more of them, so we’re just selling through our existing inventory. So if you want a mug,

⏹️ ▶️ John I would get one sooner rather than later. Everything else, don’t worry about the stock. You order it, we’ll make it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would also say, first of all, that page also contains the typo that I just fixed. Thanks, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I

⏹️ ▶️ John was in the process of going to fix that, and I saw it had already been fixed. ColorSoul, that one? Mm-hmm.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I went and did a

⏹️ ▶️ John search for it, and I’m like, oh, it must

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already be fixed. Yep. And I would also say that the mugs make very good desk mugs. If you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a mug in your desk to hold pens and scissors and whatever, I’ve had one on my desk for now, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two or three years, whenever we made it. it. It’s great for that because it’s like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of squat and wide for a mug like it’s in that ballpark

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so it really holds a ton of pens and stuff and it’s nice and heavy so it stays put. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a great desk mug in case your coffee mug collection is totally full, maxed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, or you know you think your spouse might kill you if you add another one to the cabinet or whatever else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s also a great desk mug.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to make my my pricing pitch slash explanation to You know as with

⏹️ ▶️ John everything prices on all this stuff just continue to go up. I don’t know if it’s inflation It’s just the passage of time.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, these are expensive shirts It’s just the way it is part of what how we tried

⏹️ ▶️ John to mitigate. This was like the six color shirt That is all the shirts that only

⏹️ ▶️ John have one color of ink on them They are less expensive than the ones that have seven or eight colors of ink because everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John additional ink colors at a different additional printing pass and that’s labor-intensive and they cost more to make right so

⏹️ ▶️ John These shirts with just one ink color are less expensive that includes both of the Mac Pro believe shirts

⏹️ ▶️ John and the ATP Six color shirts again the six colors refer to the colors of the shirts not the colors of the ink

⏹️ ▶️ John The ones that have lots of different colors on them look really cool But they’re also more expensive, but in general if you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t care about any of this merchandise you have enough t-shirts You don’t care about mugs You don’t want a hoodie, but you’re like, but I just want to give money to the show

⏹️ ▶️ John if you want to give money to the show Membership is the way to do it. Even though these shirts are very, very expensive,

⏹️ ▶️ John the profit margins on them are very, very small. So if you want to give money to the show,

⏹️ ▶️ John membership. If you want t-shirts, buy them. And remember, at least one of you who is going to Apple Park

⏹️ ▶️ John for WWDC has to buy the Mac Pro Believe shirt. Again, I leave it to you to figure out who that’s going to be.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Excellent. All right, I will even go so far as to say, this is not planned, I just came up with this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the first 10 people that send me an image of them at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Park wearing a Believe shirt that is clearly not Photoshopped or Photoshopped

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so well that I can’t tell the difference. No, don’t include that second part because people can fool you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty easily. Fair enough. But you know what I’m saying? Just be honest, people, be honest. First 10 people,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will send an ATP sticker. So send me, you can find my email address

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the internet, it exists. Send me a picture, send me your mailing address, And if you’re one of the first 10

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people, I will send you a sticker and I will bill John for the labor involved in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John post.

⏹️ ▶️ John Pretty optimistic you think there’s gonna be 10 people wearing the shirt and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey go to WNBC.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll see if we can pull that off. And I feel like if you get like a selfie with an

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple executive, a prominent Apple executive that we recognize and you show them your shirt in the selfie,

⏹️ ▶️ John in case it will give you more than one sticker.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can confirm, can confirm.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you happen to be in the background when Tim Cook takes his PR shot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey next to whatever the new product is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Extra points for that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s just say that if you really go above and beyond and can prove it, we are not above

⏹️ ▶️ Casey comping you ATP membership for life. I’m not saying we will, I’m saying it is on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John table. You’re just making

⏹️ ▶️ John work for Marco. I don’t think we have the ability to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, yeah, I’m not sure that we do. I think we do, I’m pretty sure we do. All right, I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ John what things we’ve implemented or not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We can make it happen. So, well, I’m not saying we will, but I’m saying it is on the table if you really, really go above and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey beyond. So yeah, to recap, slash store. If you are a member or become a member, which you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can do at slash join, then you get a discount code. You can check for that on your member

⏹️ ▶️ Casey page. But anyway, slash store. Mac Pro Believe in black or white

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ink. The ATP in white ink on various color shirts. The Pro Max Triumph

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on black or white shirts with rainbow of colors. The OG ATP logo shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The ATP polo is back for the first time in a couple of years. The ATP hoodie and there are a handful of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mugs. slash store. I will do the lecture about not forgetting another week since we’ve gone on for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a while, but don’t be that person. Don’t do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, we should tell them that, Nate, the sale ends on Saturday, May 6th. So that’s how long you have.

⏹️ ▶️ John Indeed.

John’s maybe-probably-bug

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s do some follow-up. If you are an ATP listener, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a member, excuse me, and listen to the bootleg, then you got a whole bonus section that we ended up cutting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the released version of the show last week because, John, you’ve been on a journey. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can you recap what’s going on here?

⏹️ ▶️ John Last week I talked about a bug I was experiencing that I thought maybe would get resolved on its own

⏹️ ▶️ John but wasn’t getting resolved. And so I was, you know, taking advantage of the fact that I have a podcast to bring this bug to the attention

⏹️ ▶️ John of Apple. Of course, by then and I had already filed a feedback with all the information I had available and I just

⏹️ ▶️ John wanted Apple folks to know. But after the bootleg was released, but before the edited

⏹️ ▶️ John episode was released, I thought I had fixed the bug. And I was going to still

⏹️ ▶️ John talk about it in this episode because I thought the way I had fixed the bug was interesting. What had happened

⏹️ ▶️ John was through various back channels, Apple people had been made aware of the feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John I had filed and they had sent a message back out of Apple to me to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, hey, I don’t think anyone else has seen that issue. It might just be a you thing. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John see any similar reports or whatever. And that made me think, that tiny little piece of information, which

⏹️ ▶️ John I got zero information from feedback, obviously, but the tiny piece of backchannel information made me think, huh,

⏹️ ▶️ John if they haven’t seen any similar reports and this bug is like 100% reproducible for me, maybe it’s a me thing. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I investigated further and I was like, let me just look at what else is on my system. Do I have any weird stuff on here? And I

⏹️ ▶️ John started disabling system extensions and looking if I had any old keks laying around. And lo and behold,

⏹️ ▶️ John something that I did fixed it. I removed a bunch of third-party software and the problem went away. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so I was like, you know, this week’s followup was gonna be, see

⏹️ ▶️ John what even just the tiniest bit of feedback can do? This bit of feedback, again, back-channeled, not through the actual

⏹️ ▶️ John feedback system because that doesn’t work. Well, the only information was, huh, we don’t seem

⏹️ ▶️ John to have similar reports. Or, you know, like we don’t see a lot of reports like that. That tiny piece of information got

⏹️ ▶️ John me to reconsider whether this is actually a bug in the released OS or whether this is a bug

⏹️ ▶️ John that has something to do with me specifically or whatever. I’m like, look, and that helped me to fix it. That’s what I was going to say on

⏹️ ▶️ John this week’s episode. But actually, apparently, whatever I did to quote unquote fix

⏹️ ▶️ John it, didn’t actually fix it. Shortly after the episode was released with that part of the episode

⏹️ ▶️ John cut out, the bug came back and it is still with me right now. So I refiled the bug, because at that point I had

⏹️ ▶️ John closed the feedback and said, oh, this was just a me thing. here is what I disabled and it fixed it. But no, it’s back.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I double and triple checked everything on my system. I am running no third party kernel extensions, no third party system extensions.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the bug is still here. What is the bug I posted about in Amastadon, we’ll put a link in the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ John for real this time. So you can see the video of me experiencing the bug.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s that when I grab a window, any window and move it around, it lags behind my cursor like crazy and jumps

⏹️ ▶️ John all over the place. And it does it in response to how many other windows are visible on the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John either below it or near it. So if you hide all other windows, or if you take a window

⏹️ ▶️ John way up in the corner of the screen and push all the other windows away from it, window dragging works fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John But if you drag the window near other windows, it gets super laggy and freaks out and starts jumping

⏹️ ▶️ John all over the place. And I think it has to do with something, some part of the Mac OS

⏹️ ▶️ John window manager server thingy that does like the window snapping. So when you bring windows close to another window,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will like snap to the edge before over it or whatever. This started happening immediately after

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS 13.3 was released. So like, well, here you go. It’s a 13.3 bug. This didn’t happen before.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now it’s happening all the time. I thought I had fixed it because I’ve been doing all those restarts and removing system extensions.

⏹️ ▶️ John It does stay away after a reboot for a little while, but it always comes back just before

⏹️ ▶️ John the show. In fact, I rebooted just because I want to. It was happening like there was my computer was all laggy with dragging

⏹️ ▶️ John windows all day. I’m like, let me just reboot. So I have a fresh computer for the podcast. But I have no doubt that within a

⏹️ ▶️ John few hours or maybe by tomorrow morning this bug will be back and it’s terrible for someone like me because all I do all day is open

⏹️ ▶️ John and close windows and drag them around and it becomes almost untenable to drag stuff around because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John really slow and really laggy and really jumpy. I included a spin dump

⏹️ ▶️ John of the window manager process which jumps to 100% CPU when I drag a window around. I included a video of me

⏹️ ▶️ John dragging a stickies window around seeing how incredibly laggy it is. Everything else in the system is fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s no other processes that are using CPU, plenty of free RAM. You know, it’s like the system is

⏹️ ▶️ John not stressed, but window dragging freaks out. So please Apple, figure out what this is and fix

⏹️ ▶️ John it because apparently whatever I thought it was, that’s not it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is it possible that you have too many GPUs in your fancy Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I suppose I could remove one, but like, again, this never happened until like immediately after

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS 13 point, I updated to 13.3. So I have to think it’s an OS update thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hmm, you know, I gotta say that I’m not having that particular problem on my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lowly MacBook Pro Marco are you having any problems on your piece of garbage MacBook Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, no, not at all In fact, my my MacBook Pro which only has well depending how you define it either one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or like 38 GPUs It’s fine. I don’t have this problem at all. Funny how that was

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not that’s what that’s what the person said that it doesn’t seem to be widespread when I talked about it on Amastadon a bunch Of other people said they

⏹️ ▶️ John were also having the problem Not a lot of people, maybe like four or five, but enough.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they had all sorts of different computers. Some had MacBook Pros, some of them had I don’t think any of them had Mac Pros. So I’m the

⏹️ ▶️ John only Mac Pro user. But the other people had had regular computers and they were also experiencing this. Some of them said

⏹️ ▶️ John also immediately after up to 13.3. So I don’t know what the deal is. I’m curious to find out, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want my computer to work right again. It’s a little bit annoying. So please Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess the new feedback number is FB1212206.

⏹️ ▶️ John Link will be in the show notes with the feedback number.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Indeed. Quote, I’m the only Mac Pro user, John Syracuse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, remember me? John Syracuse.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Remember this cyst

⏹️ ▶️ John diagnosis? Remember this spin dump? I could spin dump one inter-manager all day long.

⏹️ ▶️ John Good grief.

CarPlay follow-up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we were talking about how General Motors hates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your phone and car play last week, and I stand by everything we said. And I was talking to a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey friend of the show, Jelly, about this, and Jelly made a really good point, and I got to add a little bit of context. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey both my car and Aaron’s car have wired car play. I have a 2018 Volkswagen Golf.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Golf, whatever. Aaron has a a 2017 Volvo XC90. Both of them support wired car

⏹️ ▶️ Casey play, but I have a little box

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I use as like an adapter, if you will, to give me wireless car play. In Aaron’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey car in particular, the infotainment, while good, takes about 13 calendar years

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get activated once the car is started. It is really slow to get going, and then once it gets going,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s fine. I was talking to Jelly about this. Jelly has a Polestar 2, which is a sort of kind of, but not really Volvo,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that has the Android automotive that runs all of the infotainment stuff and it does support CarPlay, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey believe wireless and Jelly and I were talking about you know the last episode what we were saying on it and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he made a really really really good point and that Part of why having CarPlay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is so nice Jelly said is that there’s no real reliance on the cars

⏹️ ▶️ Casey onboard CPU. It’s basically just a monitor for the phone and And that is such

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an obvious thing that I hadn’t thought about, and I’m glad that Jelly pointed it out to me. Because in Aaron’s car, again, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey infotainment once it gets going isn’t bad, but getting it going is awful. And one of the nice things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about CarPlay, like Jelly had said, is that no matter how bad the infotainment is, as long as it can handle putting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stuff on the screen, which pretty much everything can if it uses CarPlay, that takes away a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of the problems. Now this gets exacerbated a little bit if you are a wireless-only car,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because that does introduce a smidgen of latency. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John still,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought, well, a smidgen of latency on cars that actually have decent implementations of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was going to say, mine’s like almost two seconds of latency for everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s not good. But nevertheless, it is a good point that I hadn’t considered, so I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted to point that out. Continuing on, Nathaniel Irons writes that, at least for now, GM’s decision to yank

⏹️ ▶️ Casey CarPlay or Android Auto only applies to future EV models, with a carve-out not just for gas

⏹️ ▶️ Casey vehicles, but also future model years of their EVs now for sale. There’s an arts and technical link that discuss this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And Nathaniel continues, GM will feel no pain in sales figures around this decision for at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as long as they keep selling every EV they’re capable of manufacturing. But optimistically, GM dealers will still have a chance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to see people weighing the trade-off between EVs like the Bolt, which continue to support phone projection systems, versus

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the newer lines, which don’t.

HT-A9 follow-up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, Sam Tierney writes in, I recently got the HTA-9 system

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after your mention, and apparently it’s excellent as per Sam. They realized, however, that when using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Plex played via the Apple TV 4K to play their Blu-ray rips, it can’t pass

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through Atmos or DTS X as in the object-based audio, especially the height elements.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And Infuse, which is a media player that everyone loves to talk about, breaks down the issues here, including

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a template for submitting a feedback, our favorite thing these days, We’ll put a link in the show notes, but apparently in short Apple only supports

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I had actually seen this recently as well Apple only supports lossy spatial audio used in streaming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps or for Dolby EIC 3 for example and not lossless again for Dolby true

⏹️ ▶️ Casey HD Currently only the Nvidia shield Pro Dune 4k and some other Android based media

⏹️ ▶️ Casey players support true pass-through audio Amazon has started to support some of it with the new fire cube

⏹️ ▶️ Casey though only for at miss not DT DTS X John make me care about this

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t think it makes that much of a difference. Like if you have a Blu-ray player or

⏹️ ▶️ John something, you’re probably gonna need, well, I always think that receiver is the solution to all these problems, because receivers,

⏹️ ▶️ John guess what? They support all this stuff. But this is talking about using the Apple TV with the

⏹️ ▶️ John HTA9, which doesn’t need and can’t use a receiver. So it complicates things. This is kind of one

⏹️ ▶️ John of the trade-offs when you buy one of these systems, whether it be a soundbar or the Sony system or whatever that’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is it, buy this and connect it to your TV and you’re done. You don’t need a receiver. And that’s true, but whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John limitations that setup has, you’re stuck with them forever. Whereas if you buy a receiver, the whole point of the receiver

⏹️ ▶️ John is a component and they tend to support all the things that they could possibly support. So you have flexibility

⏹️ ▶️ John in the future in exchange for having this big giant box that costs a lot of money, right? So when I see

⏹️ ▶️ John things like this, oh, here’s this limitation of that, just look at the limitations of the setup. And if you don’t care about them, if you’re like, well, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John even know the differences and I can’t hear the difference between, you know, AC3 versus DTS-X, and

⏹️ ▶️ John honestly, I can’t either. most people’s speakers aren’t good enough to tell either way. You probably shouldn’t care, but if you

⏹️ ▶️ John do care, one way to deal with that is to just get a receiver and make sure it

⏹️ ▶️ John includes the, all the alphabet soup of stuff that you care about, uh, often to the future, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John by as future proof, a receiver as you can, and then you don’t have to worry about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is not the answer I was expecting, but I will allow it.

Keeping dust off camera sensors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Gilbert Tang writes in to tell us about how to keep dust off your sensors. Tell me about this,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey please, John.

⏹️ ▶️ John I do wonder if this is one of those sort of like traditions passed on among

⏹️ ▶️ John photographers with potentially not too much scientific

⏹️ ▶️ John testing to see whether it does anything, but it doesn’t seem like it’s harmful. Anyway, here it is.

⏹️ ▶️ John Gilbert says, provided your lenses and sensors have enough clearance, and Sony E-mount ones do,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s common to add a square of double stick tape to the interior of the lens back and body caps to capture

⏹️ ▶️ John dust during normal movement. So you see what they’re saying here is there’s like a little cap that goes on to both

⏹️ ▶️ John your camera body and also on the part of lenses that attach to your camera body. And he’s saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John put a square of double stick tape there to catch the

⏹️ ▶️ John dust. He says, I’ve been doing this for around 25 years. See, this is already suspect. Are you doing anything for 25 years?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, hmm, 25 years ago, did we have science? I’ve been doing this for about 25 years with

⏹️ ▶️ John my Nikon Hasselblad and select like a Some simply don’t have the clearance and Sony gear

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s astounding how much sensor cleaning it has saved me Plus it helps sensor shake work even better during cleaning

⏹️ ▶️ John operations. Also some cameras close the shutter over the sensor I’m not we didn’t talk about this last time But like

⏹️ ▶️ John there is a mechanical shutter in these cameras that you know goes up and down over the sensor and I always wondered

⏹️ ▶️ John why? Don’t they just close the shutter when you twist off the lens? Well a whole bunch of them do including the Sony a1

⏹️ ▶️ John a9 a9 to a7r5 a bunch of the recent sonar cameras do that

⏹️ ▶️ John Good work 10 years because the lens back and body cap double stick technique if I’ve been doing

⏹️ ▶️ John swaps and dusty environments I’ll actually disable this feature on my bodies That have it simply because

⏹️ ▶️ John the shutter could otherwise keep dust captive this I also think is Suspects like I want the dust to be

⏹️ ▶️ John free so it can hit my magical double stick tape It’s like, I’d rather just have the shutter. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John like, where’s the dust coming from? It comes from, I don’t know. Like, if the little thing, curtain, goes

⏹️ ▶️ John down over the sensor when you take it off, I guess dust could get in there, and then the shutter goes back up, and then the

⏹️ ▶️ John dust is free again, and you want it to hit the tape. I just, I really need to see some simulations of like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is like whether it’s better to run through the raindrops or walk slowly, right? Is it better to have the shutter closed

⏹️ ▶️ John over your sensor for dust? Anyway, so he continues, To be clear, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John very temporary and I only do it after the shoot is over and the good vibrations from returning travel help knock stuff loose.

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, more sort of magical thinking here, like the double stick tape is for when it’s traveling so when

⏹️ ▶️ John the cameras are shaking it’ll knock the dust up and the dust will fly around and it will hit against the double stick tape.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right. He says, and no, I’ve never once had a piece of double stick tape dislodge itself. I suppose

⏹️ ▶️ John this is a risk with poor application or crappy tape, but yeah, people are doing this with $50,000 RE

⏹️ ▶️ John Signature Primes too. When it’s dirty, I remove the tape, clean the cap interiors with alcohol, and

⏹️ ▶️ John reapply. I’m pretty diligent about it. So there you go. One endorsement of the 25-year-old

⏹️ ▶️ John technique of sticking double-stick tape to catch the dust like it’s a Venus

⏹️ ▶️ John fly trap for dust flies. I mean, I suppose it couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John hurt, because as long as the tape doesn’t come off, it’s not doing anything bad, but I am very suspicious of this technique.

⏹️ ▶️ John I am, however, very interested in eventually getting a camera that closes the shutter over of the sensor

⏹️ ▶️ John when you change lenses.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Good talk.


⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then a couple people wrote to point out to us last week tonight, which is a show I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey enjoy or at least watching the segments on YouTube. Anyway, they did a 25 and a half minute

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing on homeowners associations and it is Just as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad as you would expect it is quite funny And if you have 25 minutes to kill I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey definitely recommend it. We’ll put in the show notes But yeah If you’re not American and are not familiar with this,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was whining about this a year or two back because I kind of got guilted into being on my homeowners association.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And basically, in America, if you threaten people’s perceived wealth, then they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel justified in doing whatever they want. And homeowners associations are usually like neighborhood groups that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have some amount of authority slash control over what the homeowners in that neighborhood do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if the homeowners do anything that these people think will, quote, ruin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey their property values, quote, then they get to retaliate with any means necessary,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’s garbage. So if you have 25 minutes to kill, it is quite funny and worth watching.

⏹️ ▶️ John So a couple of surprising things that I learned from this was how prevalent homeowner associations

⏹️ ▶️ John are in the US now. When I was growing up, and even when I was looking for a house, it was like, yeah, some places have

⏹️ ▶️ John homeowner associations, but it’s kind of like for the ritzy areas with the obnoxious

⏹️ ▶️ John people who don’t want you to be able to paint your house any color you want, and we just won’t look in areas like that or whatever. But apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ John something like 82% of new home sales in the US now have homeowners associations. Like you

⏹️ ▶️ John have no choice. If you buy the house, you agree to be subject to the homeowners association.

⏹️ ▶️ John There is no opting out, right? 82%, that seems really high. And you may be wondering why are they so

⏹️ ▶️ John prevalent? Watch the program for some explanations, but it comes down to the same usual stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there are now private companies that sort of administer the homeowners association

⏹️ ▶️ John on behalf of the terrible people who run them. And those private companies make money based

⏹️ ▶️ John on how many violations they find. So they are financially, it’s just like having the private prison systems. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John the incentives are all aligned for everything to go horribly wrong, right? So private companies should not run prisons, private

⏹️ ▶️ John companies should not run homeowners associations. The one thing I felt like this segment left out was an explanation

⏹️ ▶️ John of the, like what is the accountability mechanism for these homeowners associations? It did point

⏹️ ▶️ John out that like the government can’t do anything. If you have a crappy homeowner association, that’s your problem. It’s a private company,

⏹️ ▶️ John private thing that you agreed to like tough luck. So don’t go crying to the government because they can’t help you. These organizations

⏹️ ▶️ John are, you know, not not governmental organizations. And sometimes the homeowner associations do things

⏹️ ▶️ John that in other countries with competent governance governments are run by the government, like, you know, water, sewer,

⏹️ ▶️ John street paving. Sometimes the homeowner association do that. So it’s not like these these associations

⏹️ ▶️ John have no power. They have tremendous power. In fact, the program shows them like foreclosing on people’s

⏹️ ▶️ John homes because they fell behind on the fines they incurred by having shutters that were the wrong color. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculous, right? But like, what is the accountability? Presumably the homeowners association is like

⏹️ ▶️ John appointed or elected by the people, you know, by the neighborhood that they run or whatever. So if you do get a

⏹️ ▶️ John homeowner association that is doing terrible things like what is their accountability and the program didn’t quite make that clear. I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a question for Casey. Like say your homeowner association goes evil. But what

⏹️ ▶️ John is the recourse that you have? Do they get elected for some period of time? Can you vote them out? How does that work?

⏹️ ▶️ John They

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do. I mean, I haven’t looked at our bylaws in a long time. But generally speaking, to the best of my recollection,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they are elected typically annually. And yeah, the homeowners could band together and vote out the jerks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that, in principle, is fine. But taking my neighborhood, for example, and I want to say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s like 50 to 100 houses in my neighborhood. I forget exactly how many.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Literally nobody wants to be on the HOA, but we are legally compelled to keep an HOA. And if we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t, then the bylaws state that we have to hire one of these HOA firms

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do the work. And everyone assumes that that will be a fortune, either because we will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to, you know, the neighborhood as a group will have to pay the firm to do it, or like you were saying, they will fine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us for everything just so they can earn their money. And so as far as I know, right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now, our neighborhood, which is supposed to have an HOA leadership board of like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey five or six people. I think it’s a president and a treasurer and that’s it. Because that is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bare minimum that we can do to keep from having to farm it out to some other company. And it’s been this way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for like two or three years now. It’s basically since I left. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m assuming the reason the evil ones don’t get voted out then is, you know, this is kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John a workaround for, I forget what the laws used to be, there was tons of laws in the United States that would keep

⏹️ ▶️ John minorities out of the neighborhood, basically, it was illegal to sell a house to somebody who was Jewish or not white

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. That was incredibly common in the US because that’s what our country is founded on. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that became illegal at some point ridiculously late, like the 70s or something. HOAs give you a way

⏹️ ▶️ John around that because you can’t put that into the

⏹️ ▶️ John contract for your home ownership. But what you can do is find the people who all the other neighbors decide are

⏹️ ▶️ John undesirable and find all the things that are wrong in their property. And then, you know, levy

⏹️ ▶️ John fines against them in an amount that you decide. And if the whole neighborhood decides, it’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of like speeding laws. You could pull over anybody for speeding on any given highway.

⏹️ ▶️ John But who do you choose to pull over? So you make the bylaws that say, hey, it’s a $10,000 fine per day

⏹️ ▶️ John if your shutters are the wrong color. Then you find the person you don’t want to be in the neighborhood, and you tell them the shutters are the wrong color. Everyone’s shutters

⏹️ ▶️ John are the wrong color, but you just enforce that on this person. And you’re like, well, why wouldn’t the neighbors vote out that HOA? Well, they

⏹️ ▶️ John all don’t want minorities in the neighborhood either. And so what have you done? You’ve recreated, I forget what it’s called, redlining or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. You’ve recreated the unconstitutional, recently made illegal practice

⏹️ ▶️ John of legally keeping minorities out of your neighborhood. You’ve just done it in a different way with a private company and there’s no recourse in the government.

⏹️ ▶️ John So, America. Anyway, sorry

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get depressing. Yeah, it’s like, if you hate your local governments, well, the alternative is worse. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John maybe. Yeah, private companies, as bad

⏹️ ▶️ John as local government is, Private companies are usually worse.

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Studio Display rumors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apparently my purchase of the studio display, which I never had buyers remorse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over, although I flirted with a little bit after the camera debacle, which never really got that better.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I also had a little bit of remorse or I flirted with remorse when like weeks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after I took delivery of mine, there was reports that, oh, there’s going to be a super hot, like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey high refresh mini LED promotion version coming out any minute now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And apparently no it’s not because according to some people who watch the supply chain

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’ll put a link to 9to5Mac in the show notes, apparently that’s not happening and we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey aren’t going to be getting this new 27 inch display with mini LED in ProMotion after all. Which selfishly,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least right now anyway, sounds good to me. I mean you probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are eventually.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey This is something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, it’s so hard to put a lot of faith in what the rumor mill says

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about any product that’s more than like a couple of weeks out. when stuff is imminent, you get rumors about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. And that’s usually fairly accurate. But when somebody says like, Oh, Apple’s working on this new kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of display for release in 2025, well, is that really like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how how accurate is this forecast? And then, you know, and then you know, the rumors are, I start treating it as fact.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then when somebody gets different information that conflict with that, then they report that and then rumors I’d

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, Apple canceled this display. Well, did they? Or was your information

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already bad? And you got different information that might itself also be bad. So it’s this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whole storytelling that we do with these rumors that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oftentimes is based on not a lot of reality. Or it’s people who have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco information that they interpret the wrong way, or that is actually a different product,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re telling a different story than what they’re reporting. So all this stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s wise to not put a ton of time and thought into these like far out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco product rumors. It was a ridiculous concept and we said so at the time that immediately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after the studio display came out that there were rumors that they were gonna you know sometime soon make a much better one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like we know how Apple updates their displays. The answer is they don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like they update their displays about as often as they update the Mac Pro. Like it’s maybe less.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh sick burn. That’s a twofer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’re lucky they still make displays, and we know they don’t offer them very much, very frequently. See,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also the Mac Pro on both counts, right? So, the idea that they were going to follow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up the Studio Display, which came out, what, a year ago? They were gonna follow that up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fairly soon with something that is significantly different and better, but replaces that same product category?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That doesn’t make a lot of sense, and it didn’t make a lot of sense then, it doesn’t make a lot of sense now, and if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do ever update this product, I think I think they eventually will as long as they keep making them at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But if they do update this product is probably still a few years away. And at that point and nothing you hear from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rumor mill today is going to be very accurate about what the details of that might be.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the reason this particular rumor, you know, had legs is well, first of all,

⏹️ ▶️ John when it originally came out, the rumor was, hey, Casey, you just bought a studio display. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re going to release a better one, like in a month.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it was Like within a couple of months for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John sure. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John it was ridiculously close. And it was a type of thing where the only way it could possibly be true is if they wanted to launch both

⏹️ ▶️ John of them, but couldn’t. And so they like delayed one of them or something, which occasionally happens, right? But that was the rumor, like

⏹️ ▶️ John how they can, they never update the displays. And you’re saying they just released a display and they’re gonna release an even better

⏹️ ▶️ John one, like within a month or two of like, that seems impossible and it turns out not to be true. Right, so that was

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of ridiculous, right? But the reason this rumor kept going is, The one they released

⏹️ ▶️ John was less than we thought it might be, right? Not that it was bad or anything. It was, you know, it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John 5K display, just like in the 5K Mac, and they put it in display, like, good job. And it was weird with the A13 and the bad camera, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But like, but in other words, it was fine, right? But we know that in the world of technology that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is competing in, better display technology exists. Other manufacturers and even Apple itself

⏹️ ▶️ John have better displays, like the mini, mini LID ones that are in their laptops and the, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the fancy ones in their big iPad. and you know lots of third-party manufacturers make displays that have

⏹️ ▶️ John dynamic backlights. So we know that’s out there. We know it’s not just like an advanced technology to expect. It’s existing

⏹️ ▶️ John products are like that. So like okay, Apple came out with a studio display. It’s like this.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s obviously room for them to make a better version of this that has

⏹️ ▶️ John mini LED backlight for better blacks or whatever or higher refresh rate because ProMotion is a thing, right? So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s one of those things where there will eventually be a better, again, like Marco said, if they keep making monitors,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is not a given, right? But if they keep making monitors, we know they’re gonna come out with that eventually.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s why this rumor, despite it saying, oh, it’s coming out next week in case it’s gonna be said, that was

⏹️ ▶️ John unbelievable and didn’t happen. But the rumor that there will eventually be a better one makes sense, and

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just a question of when. And when it’s two or three years out, you’re like, oh, I can see that happening. A couple of years from now, they’ll probably come out with

⏹️ ▶️ John a new one. But a couple of years pass in Apple land, which has happens when you’re waiting for the Mac Pro or a monitor,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we start approaching the date that everybody said this thing’s supposed to come out. And then you start with the rumors of like, oh, remember

⏹️ ▶️ John we said it was supposed to come out? Well, it looks like it’s not gonna. And that feels like a, you know, the rumor

⏹️ ▶️ John was it’s on and now it’s off. Combine this with the persistent

⏹️ ▶️ John rumors ever since the 24 inch iMac came out that Apple’s going to make a bigger iMac, which they also

⏹️ ▶️ John haven’t done. But anytime there’s leaks from like the supply chain of a 27 inch display, people like,

⏹️ ▶️ John is this for a monitor? Is this for a 27 inch iMac? Lots of rumors about 27 inch iMac is

⏹️ ▶️ John like, They made a bunch of prototypes. They were thinking of making one. It never got to the point where they said there’s going to be one. But they said

⏹️ ▶️ John that this is a thing Apple has, you know, toyed with internally made prototypes of, which makes sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like it makes sense that they would do that. But, you know, it they haven’t actually released anything and don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John actually have any plans to release anything. But that complicates all the rumors of better 27

⏹️ ▶️ John inch displays, because every single one of them, you could be maybe that was just like the the big iMac that they were toying with and decided

⏹️ ▶️ John not to make. So I you know, this If they still keep making 27 inch

⏹️ ▶️ John 5K monitors, if there is eventually another studio display,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will be better in these ways, and it will be good. It’s just a question of when that happens. If they ship

⏹️ ▶️ John a mini LED backlight ProMotion 27 inch display five years from now, that’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit late, but not out of the realm of

⏹️ ▶️ John possibility for Apple and the way they handle monitors. Should they have shipped one two months

⏹️ ▶️ John after Casey got his? No, that seems silly. Should they ship one now? I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ship

⏹️ ▶️ John one now. And I think it’s reasonable to ship something like this and still keep the old studio display around. Because A, then you can

⏹️ ▶️ John price this one even higher.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco My

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple loves that. And B, that like some people don’t care about mini LED or Pro Motion

⏹️ ▶️ John and they should be able to get the cheaper one. So I have my fingers crossed that something about

⏹️ ▶️ John this rumor comes to fruition at some point in the next year or two. But for now, it’s an example of one of

⏹️ ▶️ John those stories that stayed in the news because it makes sense. sense technologically. It’s not a fantasy. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not ridiculous. It makes perfect sense. It’s just that with Apple, what makes perfect sense doesn’t always happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. I mean, I would love to have a monitor like this. And my dream scenario is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I bump the studio display to be my accessory display, which is the most privileged

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing in the world, but nevertheless, and then I have this new fancy mini LED promotion studio

⏹️ ▶️ Casey display too as my new primary display. And that would be amazing. But yeah, I mean, it It sounds like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s not happening imminently. And you know, that’s all right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You could always get that Samsung thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s true.

iPhone button rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John I just said that the thing that it makes sense that this would happen, but Apple doesn’t always do what makes sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, this next bullet item is a thing that never really made sense to me, and it looks like it’s not happening.

⏹️ ▶️ John Carry on. So this is the rumor, we talked about it many, many shows ago

⏹️ ▶️ John about the quote unquote solid state buttons in the new iPhones. This would be buttons that

⏹️ ▶️ John are like, we keep using this analogy and I wonder how many people listening don’t know what this is. But there was a phone called the iPhone 7 once,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it had a thing called the home button. And the iPhone 7 switched the home button

⏹️ ▶️ John from a button that would move up and down like a regular button, right? To a button that did not

⏹️ ▶️ John move, kind of like the track pads on modern MacBooks and MacBook Pros, but would just vibrate

⏹️ ▶️ John when you pressed it. And that sounds awful, but it turns out Apple did an amazing job and the home button

⏹️ ▶️ John on the iPhone 7 felt great. It didn’t exactly feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John the actual physical home button, but in many ways I thought it felt better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, for whatever it’s worth, Not only did I use that home button today,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I also, just today, arrived in the mail a brand new iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well not brand new, but a modern iPhone that I just purchased that has that button.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is the iPhone SE3. For reasons that are too long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get into now, I bought a refurb, really cheap iPhone SE3

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from Amazon To serve basically where we are killing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple watch family setup from our child’s Apple watch thing. We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John are outgrown

⏹️ ▶️ John it and also it’s really buggy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my god It’s so bad like okay. I’m sorry for the right so quick quick diversion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us We the the Apple watch family setup that this is the feature They launched

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back with the first Apple watch se a couple of years ago Where you could set up an Apple watch for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a family member without having a paired iPhone for it normally of course Apple watch require

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to pair to a particular iPhone. You can’t pair them to iPads. You can’t pair them to iPod touches. Has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be an iPhone. You know, so if you wanted to get like a watch for your kid or a family member or whatever, they had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have a paired iPhone and so that didn’t work for a lot of people. So right at the time when my kid was getting a watch, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it made sense for various reasons that we described back then, he didn’t and still doesn’t have his own iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so we thought, great, this is perfect. And it has been so buggy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the last few years. we’ve had problem after problem with family setup. Most common problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are the watch basically doesn’t back itself up at all. It thinks it does sometimes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it never actually is. Whatever your kid does on the watch, consider it very temporary data

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it will be lost at some point. Usually next time you have to move it to a different OS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version or whatever. Or move to a different watch if that one gets upgraded or breaks or dies or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s problem number one. All the data on the watch is even more ephemeral untemporary than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Watches usually are, because it doesn’t back up to a phone. Even the phone that you set it up doesn’t really back it up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Number two, any app that has a phone counterpart where the watch app cannot be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco installed by itself, like directly from the little tiny watch app store, any app like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cannot run on a phone with family setup because there is no paired iPhone effectively.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So there are no iPhone counterparts. So like, for instance, we just as a family, we’ve started running

⏹️ ▶️ Marco together. Tiff is a Nike Run Club person, trying to make Adam a Nike Run Club person,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like, you know, using their app. We were trying to get Run Club on his watch, and you can’t really do it because it needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the phone paired app and all this stuff. And I’m like, you know what? At this point, this has caused us so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many problems. Oh, and Family Setup is super buggy with cellular, which is the whole point of it. I don’t know why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s so buggy. Super buggy with cellular. A lot of times you just can’t reach the person. Some of this is the fault

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of watchOS and the way it handles cellular. Some of it is, I think, due to Family Setup because of weirdness

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there. So anyway, I just needed a phone, any phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to pair to Adam’s watch. And we’re not, to be clear, the phone is staying in a drawer in my office. We’re not giving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco him the phone. But it is just any phone that can be paired so it can be treated like a normal Apple Watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with all the regular code path. That way it can at least be the regular level of Apple Watch bugginess,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because at least Apple engineers use the watches this way, instead of like, you know, the extra buggy level of family

⏹️ ▶️ Marco setup where I don’t think anybody who works at Apple uses that feature. And you can kind of tell when there’s a feature like that with Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So anyway, stay on the commonly used path for Apple success and happiness. And that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is pairing it with a phone. And normally, I normally have a drawer full of old phones. And the problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, all of my old phone, like my two oldest, my two old phones that would have been perfectly candidates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for this are an iPhone 7 with the wonderful home button and an iPhone SE

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first gen, neither of which can run iOS 16. and Adam’s Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch is on watchOS 9 and it can’t be paired to iOS 15 phones. So it’s like, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now I gotta find something that can run iOS 16 that I also don’t need for anything else

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever, because it’ll be signed into his account and I’m not gonna be putting like betas and crap on it. So it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I, yeah, basically went and bought an iPhone SE pretty much for this purpose. I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco occasionally use it for like OS testing here and there or testing on this old form factor, but it works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine. It was like $200. It was super cheap for like, you know, a refurb for Amazon.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m very happy with that. And it’s kind of amazing, like, you know, I pick up this phone and like this thing has,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like either, I think it’s either an A14, I think it’s an A15 in this. Like it has such incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco modern computing guts in this thing, but to use a phone today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as somebody who’s used, you know, the Face ID style phones since the iPhone 10, to use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a new iPhone today that has the new guts, but still has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco touch ID and the home button and the rectangular screen, it feels

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so weird and so unbelievably old. It is shocking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much I feel like I’m going in the past with this brand new, well, mostly new phone that Apple, that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the current model that Apple sells that I’m pretty sure has an A15 in it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, that’s my rant. Family setup, goodbye.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, out of curiosity, you’re not getting any cellular service for the phone then?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far, I don’t think I need to. I was worried that I would need to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we just left the plan on the watch and we restored the new phone. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco haven’t quite figured out location tracking yet. I might have to do some weirdness there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But so far, he was at the playground yesterday and was able to call us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with his watch after it had been paired to this phone. The number, it came from a random phone number

⏹️ ▶️ Marco instead of his Apple ID. It was a FaceTime call, but it came from some random phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number that the watch was assigned by AT&T a million years ago. So I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if we’re going to be able to keep it that way, or if you could set it up new that way if you didn’t first set it up with family

⏹️ ▶️ Marco setup. I don’t know, but right now the phone has no cell plan. The watch has its, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever $10 a month cell plan. And he’s able to call with this phone number.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we’ll see. Let’s see if this is a stable situation or if at some point, you know, AT&T

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or Apple are gonna, you know, end this for us. But right now we don’t need a cell service thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fascinating. Where were we? Solid state buttons.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the solid state buttons on the SE, we have the SE3 or

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey whatever that’s there. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John still selling them because they still sell phones in that form factor. And like I said, it’s a thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple customers deal with all the time, probably primarily on the trackpads

⏹️ ▶️ John on their MacBooks and MacBook Pros, because they’re all like this. They don’t actually move up and

⏹️ ▶️ John down to hit some kind of sensor. You just press on them and your pressure initiates a vibration motor

⏹️ ▶️ John that makes you think you clicked it or something, right? So the rumor for the iPhone 15 was that the volume up and

⏹️ ▶️ John down and the sleep wake button on the iPhone 15, or maybe it was just the Pros, I forget.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, the new iPhones that are coming in the fall, they would be like this.

⏹️ ▶️ John They wouldn’t actually go in and out and press something. They would be pressure sensitive. And when

⏹️ ▶️ John you press them, there’d be a little vibration motor that would give a little wiggle inside there and

⏹️ ▶️ John make you think you have clicked the buttons. And when we talked about this originally, we were like, all right, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John sure, I guess, but that’s like two more vibration motors and there’s not a lot of space in there.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it seems really tricky and complicated to do because you got to make sure the buttons work to like turn

⏹️ ▶️ John on a phone. So there has to be some power going all the time to sense the pressure in

⏹️ ▶️ John them, right? And what happens if the battery goes dead? And since then there’s been all sorts of stories saying, well, Apple solved

⏹️ ▶️ John this. They have a new super duper low power, tiny little chip in there that even when the phone battery

⏹️ ▶️ John itself is 100% dead, still this other presumably tiny dedicated battery

⏹️ ▶️ John should the super low power system make sure the volume and power buttons still work so you can put it into DFU mode

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that. Like that they had found solutions to solve these problems. Still, I was always wondering, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like, to what end? Is this just for waterproofing? Is it easier to seal them when the buttons don’t move?

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, are the buttons a failure point? Maybe Apple knows something that we don’t about, like, it turns out that the sleep-wake button

⏹️ ▶️ John or the volume buttons end up failing because people press them a lot. Like, what’s motivating this?

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, the most recent rumor is, hey, remember those quote-unquote solid

⏹️ ▶️ John state buttons on the iPhone 15? Yeah, they’re not doing that this year. And the rumor is that they were testing them and they just

⏹️ ▶️ John basically had what, quote unquote, unresolved technical issues. And so, I mean, that

⏹️ ▶️ John happens sometimes. You’re pushing the envelope, you want to do something that is not particularly common in the industry and you want to ship

⏹️ ▶️ John literally hundreds of millions of iPhones with this thing. The buttons better work and better be reliable. So if

⏹️ ▶️ John they tested this and it turns out there are some issues they couldn’t resolve, by all means, go back to regular buttons.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now, the thing I think is interesting about this is this is another one of those rumors kind of like the display

⏹️ ▶️ John where it’s like, Rumor of thing that’s coming. Actually, the thing we rumored is not coming. And then the story is like Apple cancels

⏹️ ▶️ John this thing they never announced, right? I’m sure Apple tries all sorts of things with their phones, but as iPhones,

⏹️ ▶️ John which are heavily leaked products, get closer and closer to their launch day, or more precisely, closer and

⏹️ ▶️ John closer to the point where the factories start churning these things out to be ready for launch day, so they can ship hundreds of millions of them all over

⏹️ ▶️ John the world, we learn basically everything about them. Short of their names, colors, and

⏹️ ▶️ John prices, and stuff like that. Although I bet it’s gonna be called iPhone 15. In this case, we’re getting close

⏹️ ▶️ John enough to the point now where people are like 3D printing the exact shape from the, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, the quote unquote CAD files for the things you can see exactly what the phones are gonna look like down

⏹️ ▶️ John to the curvature of the case, you know, is this is so that people who make iPhone cases can manufacture them

⏹️ ▶️ John to fit exactly on the stuff like what the cameras are gonna look like, the gigantic, you know, camera mound and how much they’re gonna stick

⏹️ ▶️ John out and everything about that, right? One of the things that all the 3D models that people have done

⏹️ ▶️ John is they share a common trait the volume buttons on the side of the phone, instead of there being two little

⏹️ ▶️ John holes, one for the volume up and one for the volume down, there’s one long skinny hole that would have been

⏹️ ▶️ John presumably for the solid state button that would act kind of like a seesaw rocker, where if you press the top of the button,

⏹️ ▶️ John that would mean volume up, and you press the bottom, it would be volume down. And when I saw that, I mean, you can see it very clearly

⏹️ ▶️ John on the case, there’s just one long opening instead of two little ones, right? I hate things like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t wanna go into a car rant, but car manufacturers seem to love this idea, and I want someone

⏹️ ▶️ John to shake them and say, please don’t do this. The thing that car manufacturers do is

⏹️ ▶️ John they want to have a bunch of buttons, but they don’t want to have real button buttons. So first they did capacitive

⏹️ ▶️ John touch where there’d be this big expanse of shiny black plastic and there’d be these light up symbols, right? And if you just

⏹️ ▶️ John touch your finger to one of the light up symbols, it’s not a screen, mind you, it’s just a light up symbol, like the, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John individual stenciled out little light up symbols. You touch your finger to that light up symbol, it’s capacitive and

⏹️ ▶️ John it will sense that you touch it and it will activate it. And then they put those controls on the steering wheel, which is a terrible idea because when your bare

⏹️ ▶️ John hand swipes across one of them, you turn on cruise control or something. So you’re like, all right, that was a bad idea. It

⏹️ ▶️ John takes them five years to learn this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh no, it’s still happening. Look at the new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Golf.

⏹️ ▶️ John They still do, but some manufacturers figured out that’s a bad idea. Let’s do something better. I know what we’ll do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Let’s have a big expanse of shiny plastic with light up little areas that you also touch.

⏹️ ▶️ John But instead of them being capacitive, why don’t we make them pressure sensitive? And like, but wait a second, it’s a giant

⏹️ ▶️ John sheet of plastic. How are you going to make a pressure sensitive? How will I know how it works? I’ve got an idea. We’ll make it

⏹️ ▶️ John capacitive to figure out where your finger is and then we’ll make it pressure sensitive to figure out that you’re pressing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then some other genius says, I’ve got an even better idea. Let’s make it not pressure sensitive, but let’s make it

⏹️ ▶️ John a regular button. So now they have a huge piece of plastic that when you press anywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John on it, the entire piece of plastic goes in by like two millimeters. They have capacitive

⏹️ ▶️ John sensors to figure out, hey, we know the whole big giant thing went in, but what part

⏹️ ▶️ John of it was your finger touching when it went in. So basically it’s one big button, but

⏹️ ▶️ John with like, it knows where you press the one big button. And it’s like, guys, you can

⏹️ ▶️ John just use individual buttons. I swear. Just make six buttons instead of

⏹️ ▶️ John one giant button with a capacitive sensor so that it knows where it is.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m pretty sure whether I’m pretty sure my defenders steering wheel buttons are this. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John no, they love it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it works fine about 95% of the time, but that other 5% is really frustrating. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I guess they’re saving cost because instead of having six buttons, you have essentially one button and the capacity of stuff is

⏹️ ▶️ John cheap enough, but it’s like, it’s such a terrible idea, especially in like, you know, something that’s supposed to be fancy. So when I, anyway, getting back

⏹️ ▶️ John to the phone, when I look at this long, skinny, single volume button, right, where you just rock

⏹️ ▶️ John it from side to side, I hate that because it’s like, okay, I pressed it, but I pressed too

⏹️ ▶️ John close to the middle. So what I actually did was I actuated volume up and down at the same time, or I

⏹️ ▶️ John actually did volume up then volume down because like when they’re separate buttons and you find the one you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to press if you just press that button the other button doesn’t get pressed at all but when it’s a single piece

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s supposed to rock like a seesaw you have to make sure you press enough on the edge to

⏹️ ▶️ John rock it in the right direction or whatever it just seems like such a bad idea so given this rumor

⏹️ ▶️ John that you know they were gonna be the kind that don’t move but now they’re not gonna be they’re going back to regular buttons

⏹️ ▶️ John I do wonder does that Does that mean that they’re redesigning the case as well to

⏹️ ▶️ John have two openings, one for volume up, one for down? Or are they sticking with the single long volume button only now

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just gonna be a regular button that rocks back and forth?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Didn’t the iPhone 3G and 3GS have a single big rocker button?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think so, yeah. Like, I think they did it where they made the, they had like a divot in

⏹️ ▶️ John the middle. And the new

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John is that there’ll be like a little line in the middle as well. Like you make like a divot. It’s still one piece, but there’s like a raised part and another

⏹️ ▶️ John raised part, which helps you a little bit to make sure you know you’re pressing on the half that you’re pressing on. but it

⏹️ ▶️ John just seems to me like such a weird choice. Like what’s broken about the two separate buttons that they need to fix

⏹️ ▶️ John by having one? It seems like the same amount of surface area for water ingress as having two buttons,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t know. So anyway, we’ll see when this phone actually comes out, does it have pressure sensitive

⏹️ ▶️ John buttons or not? Or does it have a single long volume rocker or two separate volume

⏹️ ▶️ John buttons? And of all the things to change, again, I’m still kind of curious about this. Like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John perhaps knows something that we don’t, And you know, my only guess is water, water and dust

⏹️ ▶️ John ingress and reliability of moving buttons But given their track record with the home button,

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like they could probably do a good job of the solid-state buttons But just maybe not

⏹️ ▶️ John for this year And the other rumor is that the the mute switch is going to be a button which still that’s that’s still on that

⏹️ ▶️ John rumor still On I think that’ll be great because I’m already thinking about what I’m gonna use that for because the mute switch I just

⏹️ ▶️ John always have it on silent so I don’t need that switch to be there I would love that to just be a small button and I’m pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John sure my day one attempt to map that button Not that I’m gonna have this on my wife will but anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John what I would map it to is a Rotation lock you know the good old days when the iPads had a rotation

⏹️ ▶️ John lock I would probably map the button to rotation lock because I do Rotation lock and unlock my thing usually

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m laying down. I want it locked when I’m sitting up, but you know whatever but I’m I’m willing

⏹️ ▶️ John to Imagine that I might find a better use for it I’m sure lots of people will hook it up to some kind of shortcut or

⏹️ ▶️ John do the same function that you currently have mapped to like triple tap on the back of your phone. So adding another button

⏹️ ▶️ John to the phone, basically by making the mute switch into the ring silence, which or what the hell it’s called, by

⏹️ ▶️ John making that into a button, solid state or otherwise, I think that’s gonna be a big upgrade. And that one is

⏹️ ▶️ John a separate button and not just a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird rocker thing. Yeah, I think the most, just the most obvious thing to do with that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is have it launch the camera app of your choice. Like that would be amazing. I think a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh, that’s interesting. Launch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the camera. I mean, and there’s all, you know, launch the flashlight, maybe, you know, whatever you use.

⏹️ ▶️ John It could launch the default camera app. I know there’s 50 ways to do that. You can swipe sideways, you can press the little icon,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you can’t do really any, well, I guess you can do the swipe sideways without looking, but still you kind of gotta make sure the screen is active

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. I think maybe if I find that rotation lock is not worthwhile, maybe I would use

⏹️ ▶️ John camera. Because I just spent the day, today, I was touring in college with my daughter, and I was taking

⏹️ ▶️ John lots of pictures on my phone because I’m an embarrassing dad, and she wouldn’t let me bring her

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco real camera.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so you gotta take out your phone and you gotta activate the camera a lot because I’m trying to do it stealthily. Activate

⏹️ ▶️ John the camera, take a picture, put it back, right? Because I don’t want to embarrass anybody. And I have traditionally been

⏹️ ▶️ John a hold down on the little camera icon on the lock screen person, but I tried to start being a sideway swipe person

⏹️ ▶️ John because it seemed like it might be easier, but I don’t know if it’s easier. It seemed like it really wanted me to swipe

⏹️ ▶️ John a long distance. Sometimes there’s notifications there and I’m afraid I’m gonna accidentally swipe it on the way. So

⏹️ ▶️ John either one of those actions though, I think the upcoming action button, or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John the hell they call it, on the iPhone 15 series will be better. So I guess I’d try that as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think by far the most common use for it will be camera.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think, again, a lot of people will probably use it as a flashlight. If you currently use the triple tap

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accessibility shortcut for things like magnifier or things like that, like I think that’ll also be a very common use for people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who use those features. There’s a lot of features I can think of that people would love that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if they do open it up to things that can be done with the phone,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would require the phone to be unlocked, such as launching a third-party app or running a shortcut,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would also, that would add some complexity because like, you know, you’d have to let Face ID run first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before it would finish the task. But that would also, I think, dramatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco open it up. And that would do, especially, that would be great for third-party camera apps. Because then they could have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco themselves be the ones that launch when you hit that button instead of the built-in one. And that, you know, if you use a third-party camera

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app, that would be, you know, probably your holy grail. And even if you don’t, and if Apple just, you know, lets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it be their own stuff that can run with the phone locked, even if it’s just launching camera or a flashlight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or magnifier or, you know, changing the mute status, those are all very,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very nice features for almost everyone who uses them. So I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the plan for the mute switch to become an action button, basically. sounds awesome,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we’ll see what Apple does with it, like what they actually allow us to do, how it actually works, but that sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco awesome because I think most people are not flipping that switch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frequently. Most people, I think, typically have it in one state or the other,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I think it’s totally fine to make that a bit more of like a software-based thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, hitting that switch the way almost everyone that uses their iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is in a case, is terrible. Like, trying to flip that switch one-handed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when it’s in a case, with most cases, is difficult to impossible. Yeah, it’s an innie belly button,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just collects lint. Yeah, it collects tons of lint. And it’s hard to operate. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I recognize if you are a caseless unicorn and you wanna be able to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hold and feel it in your pocket or flip it in your pocket, that’s great, but you also probably recognize that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are the minority of phone users by not using the case. And so when you are using a case, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco depending on how the case is shaped around that, it’s very difficult to operate that switch or to detect what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco state it’s in without just taking out of your pocket and looking at it. So making it a button that would be,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just push it in and then the phone does something in response. Maybe it gives a little vibrate to indicate whether, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you leave it on mute mode, maybe it gives a little vibrate to indicate muted status. So you could still do it in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the pocket 100% by feel. That’s the kind of thing, that’s how I would expect them to do it. and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I think would be totally fine. And similar to, you know, when the iPhone 7 came out and it didn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a real physical pushing in home button, we all thought that was gonna be bad. We all thought it was gonna be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco somehow worse than having the physical home button. And by the way, remember, the physical home buttons in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhones that preceded the iPhone 7 often died during the time you used the phone. Like they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco often wore out and led to this whole world of people who use like the,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s the onscreen little blobby thing? but you know that little blobby thing where you have to put a home button thing on your screen? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s an

⏹️ ▶️ John accessibility feature. I don’t remember the name of it, but it basically was, it’s an on-screen incarnation of the home button for people whose home

⏹️ ▶️ John buttons broke.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, and what turned out happening was like, huge places, like I believe this was big in China, huge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco places, huge amounts of people would, oh, AssistiveTouch, thank you to Veg in the chatroom,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco huge populations of people would turn that on right from the start. They would just always use the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that way because they didn’t want to wear out the home button.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was like people who put plastic their furniture so to be protected right but they would never take the plastic off of the

⏹️ ▶️ John furniture so I wanted a furniture to look good forever but now it’s gonna look like it has plastic on it forever so you’d preserve your home button

⏹️ ▶️ John which you would never use I guess for resale value or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever right that’s that’s how my grandparents former living room always was there was always there was a whole room of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the house filled with furniture and we could never go into it except in Christmas Day and on Christmas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Day we would go into the room but the plastic would still be on the couch just we would just

⏹️ ▶️ John sit on it well you don’t want to mess it up you want it to always look good just ignoring the fact that it always looks bad because it has plastic

⏹️ ▶️ John on it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally unusable as furniture. Anyway, so when the iPhone 7 came out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with that home button, you know, virtually, you know, done with tapping engine, again, we all thought it was going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be worse, but it turned out it was, I wouldn’t say way better, but it was fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was exactly as good as the old home button in terms of how it felt and everything, but then it worked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty much 100% of the time. Like it was way more reliable. I liked it

⏹️ ▶️ John better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because

⏹️ ▶️ John it required less travel. so it felt less onerous. Like the old, people don’t remember, the old home buttons moved a lot. They didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John just move like a half a millimeter in and out. Like they moved up and down a lot. But the thing about

⏹️ ▶️ John the old home buttons is like, that we were all aware of home button failures. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it made perfect sense to us why Apple would want to make that solid state. Setting aside waterproofing,

⏹️ ▶️ John which also kind of came around then. I think the 7 was the first one where they really advertised the waterproofing stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that made sense. But the volume power buttons, like I’m willing to believe that there’s reliability

⏹️ ▶️ John and waterproofing benefits, but I don’t see them myself in my

⏹️ ▶️ John overview of the iPhone market and my usage of the iPhone. It doesn’t seem like there’s a crisis

⏹️ ▶️ John of volume up and down and sleep-wake buttons dying on iPhones and Apple needs to address

⏹️ ▶️ John this. So I mean, maybe it’s not that pressing and maybe they bailed on it because they couldn’t figure it out, but they’ll return to it in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ John The action button, on the other hand, I think is a great example of Apple discovering that buttons are useful. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John people look at it and say, Oh, it’s just like on the Apple Watch Ultra. But I feel like it’s the same ethos that put the

⏹️ ▶️ John HDMI and SD card back on the Pro Max, like that, hey, having a clean appearance

⏹️ ▶️ John is one thing, but features pay dividends every single day. So you wanna strike a

⏹️ ▶️ John balance between, you know, not having a million buttons and things sticking out of it, but also

⏹️ ▶️ John having enough functionality. Can the iPhone support one more button? I believe it can. I mean, they’re not adding

⏹️ ▶️ John a button, they’re just changing something that used to be a switch, turning that into a button, but still it’s a big win, especially if they let

⏹️ ▶️ John us, you know, assign things to it for like, what’s single tap, double tap,

⏹️ ▶️ John triple tap, tap and hold. Like I don’t think they’re gonna go hog wild with it, but if you think, oh, well then once I pick one

⏹️ ▶️ John thing for that button, it’s game over. Apple does have the ability to be fancier. And we just mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ John the triple tap on the back of your phone. That’s a triple tap action, which is fairly rare for Apple to go

⏹️ ▶️ John single tap, double tap, triple tap. So if they’re willing to do that, I really hope they’ll be willing to let people

⏹️ ▶️ John assign things to single tap on that action button, double tap on the action button and, you know, hold down the action button.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there’s lots of potential flexibility there, depending on how far Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wants to go. I mean, I can tell you why it’s triple tap on the back of the phone. At least I’m pretty sure I know why.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A long time ago, as I was brainstorming, you know, features for overcast for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how could I use this while walking, this was before the Apple Watch came out. How could I control overcast?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I actually prototyped tapping the back of the phone while it’s in your pocket

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John as some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of gesture to detect and maybe make it track skip or whatever. It was extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco difficult to get that to work reliably and not have false positives. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you’re walking, the phone is being shocked by every step you take. And so to try to detect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the difference between regular motion while walking or running or jogging or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and a tap or a double tap, your error rate is significant. Whereas triple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tap, if you do that within a fast enough time, that gives much more data, a much more identifiable pattern

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of vibration with the accelerometers and everything. To the point where they can probably detect that pretty reliably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with almost no wrong false positives. So that’s probably why that’s a triple tap.

⏹️ ▶️ John They should have done it like, they should have required Mario 64 timings for the triple tap for the triple jump.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, right. Tap, tap, tap. Oh, sorry, you didn’t do the timing right.

⏹️ ▶️ John You did a double jump and then just jumped, did a single jump after, try again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe you’re thinking of Mario, John. I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John actually. Yes, you are. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, I don’t know. I like the idea of some sort of action button or smart button.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do use my silent switch as a fidget toy,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I know I should not do, but as of yet I have not broken one. I never

⏹️ ▶️ Casey flick it otherwise. My phone, certainly since I got my first watch in 2014,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I think even mostly before that, my phone was always on silent, just always.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And again, once I had an Apple Watch on my wrist, pretty much always, there seemed to be no purpose to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever have it not on silent. And I’m not one of those absolute monsters that has a chime

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on their watch. You know, that’s why I wear a watch. I can be silently notified if something needs my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey attention. And so anyways, I don’t really have a need for Switch.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t do the rotation lock often. I tend to leave my phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on rotation locked to portrait pretty much always. And I will occasionally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey turn that off, if I need to like show a photo in landscape or something like that. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I like the idea of having that as the action button activator. I love the idea of having the camera

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as what gets activated in this mythical action button. And certainly for the iPad, I would love to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bring back the switch. It used to be that, you know, the thing that’s a, a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey silent switch on your phone, there was something similar on the iPad and that would be your orientation lock. And it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey amazing and I miss it all the time. And I would love to have that back. But anyways,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love this idea. I hope that maybe these reports are wrong, although I doubt they are. And maybe it will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey land in the iPhone 15, but we’ll see what happens. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone agrees the action button is coming. It’s just a question of whether the buttons will be solid state or not.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I think it’s tricky with the solid state because when you look at how they did, like if you look at a teardown

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of any of the Touch ID phones from iPhone 7 forward, you can see like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how they achieve that pressure button was that the Taptic Engine, which is kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big subwoofer in your phone, like it’s basically a relatively large,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco low frequency driver that goes back and forth like a speaker driver sort of, but it’s such low

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frequency that you just feel the vibration instead of like hearing audible sound. What’s interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that the way they did this is that the Taptic Engine just, I think, just happened to be in the design of the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the bottom. And so they realized, oh, well, we can just use that, since the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco home button is already right there, let’s just move the Taptic Engine a little bit over and, you know, boom boom, there’s our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco click. And, because you have to feel it when you’re close to it to really maximize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the, you know, the way it feels right. The problem is, Taptic Engines are big,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in order to do this for the iPhone volume buttons, you would have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco move it up there, and then maybe even have a second or third one, and so, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco takes up a lot of internal volume, and in the iPhone, they can’t really spare internal volume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very often. If there’s space in the iPhone, they want to use it for battery, if they can. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like a bit of an odd choice, unless they found a way to either use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one Taptic Engine to do all of this, or to have much smaller ones that still have, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough of a feel. Plus, the home button wearing out thing, as we were talking about a minute ago, you think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about how many times is a home button pressed? You know, even in light use of a phone, maybe it’s pressed 50

⏹️ ▶️ Marco times a day, and, you know, if you’re a heavy phone user, more than that. Whereas, how many times

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you press the volume buttons on your phone? Even if you are adjusting the volume all the time, you’re probably not pressing them 50

⏹️ ▶️ Marco times a day. So. Sleep,

⏹️ ▶️ John wake might be pressed a lot because people press it before they put it back in their pocket, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, maybe. I mean, it depends on like, you know, some people don’t even realize it’s there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But even then, yeah, I mean, so maybe 20 to 50 times a day for that. Like, not as much as a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco home button because the home button, you know, you press it every time you switch to apps. So it was, and everything would be unlocked the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone. So it was very, it’s pressed a lot. So I don’t know that it’s necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needed for like, you know, resilience purposes on those buttons. I think what it would be for would be for water resistance because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep in mind too, like Apple, Apple has dual reasons for wanting to make the phones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco durable. One is that they want people to be happy with their phones.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if their phones are too fragile, see also the reason why they make the backs out of glass, God knows why. If the phones are too fragile,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people don’t like them. But number two, if Apple has to repair a lot of the phones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are under warranty or AppleCare, they eat the cost and they lose

⏹️ ▶️ Marco money. Anything they can do to reduce service needs, to reduce warranty failures,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have a pretty strong incentive to do that. So ideally, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why they removed the headphone jack, that’s why they try to make everything as solid as possible, that’s why there’s always these rumors about,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, they’re gonna remove all the ports and everything like that, because Apple has strong incentives to make their phones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not fail, at least while they’re under warranty or AppleCare coverage. So, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, glass aside, that still makes you mad. But like, mate, like if Apple does eventually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not use glass on the back of their phone, it’s probably going to be for that reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mainly. And then secondarily, maybe about weight. I would love, I would love these phones to get lighter.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ll be happy to know the rumor is titanium instead of stainless steel on the pros. So that’ll be lighter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’ll be great. I hope that’s real. But anyway, as for like, if they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually do this Taptic Engine volume rocker and sleep button thing, I bet it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will feel totally fine. I bet we won’t really notice a big difference. They did show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the iPhone 7 and forward home button, they can do that. They can achieve that and the illusion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco works. Again, the trackpads on the laptops, we’ve had that illusion for since about 2015 on every model. Like that’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that illusion works fine. So the illusion works. They can do it. I trust

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to do it. I just question whether they will do it because of the interior

⏹️ ▶️ Marco space constraints that they probably have while doing it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the reason we know that they were going to use two additional Taptic engines was because the rumor was from a supply

⏹️ ▶️ John chain about who was awarded the contract. There was like, this is a big win, and the stock price of the

⏹️ ▶️ John company that makes the Taptic engines is going to go up. Because now instead of selling them one Taptic engine per phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re going to be selling them three. And the rumor was that the Taptic engines for the volume button

⏹️ ▶️ John and the sleep-wake button were very small, like they weren’t the size of the big one because they didn’t need to

⏹️ ▶️ John shake the whole phone like when it rings or whatever, they just needed to provide feedback for the buttons and they would be right next to

⏹️ ▶️ John the buttons. Still taking up space, but right next to the buttons. And that was part of what was boggling my mind is like you

⏹️ ▶️ John said, they’re gonna take space out of that. I can’t imagine it taking less space than physical buttons. So they’re gonna take space

⏹️ ▶️ John and power for these little Taptic engines, two additional Taptic engines just to pull off this feature that nobody really

⏹️ ▶️ John wants that presumably make the phones a little bit more durable. I do wonder if the technical issue they couldn’t resolve

⏹️ ▶️ John has nothing to do with the low power thing and what do you do when the battery dies and is instead related

⏹️ ▶️ John to like the experience I think a lot of people had with the original Apple Watch that the tiny Taptic

⏹️ ▶️ John Engine and the Series Zero very often sort of gave up the ghost and just could not shake your watch anymore. I think it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco still

⏹️ ▶️ John happens occasionally with later generations that the very small Taptic Engines sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John just can’t even and they stop. They stopped doing their little wiggle.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you don’t hear about that so much with the big Taptic engine that’s underneath the track pads or inside your phones

⏹️ ▶️ John at the bottom, right? So maybe something about making a very tiny Taptic engine and making that reliable

⏹️ ▶️ John is what the technical issue was, because we’ve definitely seen that specific technical issue with the very

⏹️ ▶️ John small Taptic engine that’s in the Apple Watch. But we won’t know until they announce the product, but this was definitely something that

⏹️ ▶️ John seemed like, that was very heavily rumored to the point where they were talking about which supplier

⏹️ ▶️ John was awarded the contract and they’re excited about there’ll be more Taptic engines and then this latest rumor from the

⏹️ ▶️ John same source from Ming-Chi Kuo saying, yeah, it doesn’t look like that’s happening for this year, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is the thing that happens. You try a feature out, you put it in prototypes. If you can’t get it up to the reliability

⏹️ ▶️ John levels that you want, your fallback is just do regular buttons. It’s a fallback that you can have readily available

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s not like they don’t know how to make regular buttons. But we’ll see how this

⏹️ ▶️ John ends up. But if it doesn’t come this year, if there really are benefits, like you were saying, Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ John like the reliability or water intrusion or whatever, they’ll try again, right? They’ll try with the 16,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll try with the 17. Like eventually they’ll get there.

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#askatp: Anti-malware software

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s do some Ask ATP and Xerxes wants to know, do any of you run third-party anti-malware on your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s that time of year again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Everyone asks at least once or twice a year.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the reason I keep putting it back in there is because I just always want to see, has our answer changed? We probably answer

⏹️ ▶️ John this maybe once a year, once every year and a half or whatever. And like, it’s not safe to

⏹️ ▶️ John assume that things will stay the same forever in the technology world. Here we are 2023.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are any of us running anti-malware on our Macs? Nope. In the past we had said

⏹️ ▶️ John we were not. So let’s see now. Casey says no.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope. I also like to me, you know, first of all, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything that is a significant threat of malware to the Mac, Apple will most likely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use their X protect system and block it. And that, you know, so that will be fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So far, life on a Mac has repeatedly shown that malware is not a massive concern

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most of us who run things at all responsibly. And so, we are, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a pretty low risk for us. Secondly, the reality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of anti-malware software, like third-party anti-malware software, the reality of what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that does to your computer is itself, in my opinion,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of like what malware does. So, I don’t want those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco negative effects, and I don’t want my computer to be slowed down and messed up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and giving some weird company, like, you know, these companies like Norton and whatever, like, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird companies too. Why am I giving them access to everything on my computer? Do I really trust them? Should I really trust

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them? Do I trust them not to have their own security holes? Like, if I’m opening the door to them to give them, because, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, these things need, like, you know, root access or whatever, how do I know they aren’t gonna introduce their own security hole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that somebody can exploit? Like, it’s just, it’s adding risks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to my computer. It’s taking away risks that I don’t think are very big. And,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, in the sense of not just the total malware risk to a Mac, but the delta between what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could Apple protect against directly versus what these can protect against. I think that’s a very, very small gain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in practice. And then the downside of having them is they make my computer worse. They make it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco perform worse. They introduce privacy questions. they, you know, I have to pay for them in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some way, like every it’s like, well, that isn’t that’s kind of like what malware does. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’d rather I just would rather not do that. And as long as the as long as the risk of Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco malware continues to be as low as it is, and as long as Apple can do a good enough job with their built in stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to protect against, you know, anything that actually gets big. I’m fine with that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep,

⏹️ ▶️ John agreed. I’m not as pessimistic as Marco is about anti malware software. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John the big difference is the reputable anti-malware software vendors, their intentions are good. They’re trying to protect your

⏹️ ▶️ John computer. It always amazes me that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple- They’re trying to sell you a protection scam,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John let’s be honest.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re not trying to encrypt all your stuff and then send you a ransom. Historically,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I think still currently, Apple has had in Mac OS X slash current version of Mac OS,

⏹️ ▶️ John various places for anti-malware software to hook into the system. For example, I think there

⏹️ ▶️ John has been and probably might still be the hook that says, hey, every time

⏹️ ▶️ John anything tries to access a file anywhere, here’s a part where you, third party developer,

⏹️ ▶️ John can insert your anti-malware thing to make sure that the file access is not malicious or whatever. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John like that there are really deep, low level hooks at like the kernel level

⏹️ ▶️ John for anti-malware software to intercept things like network requests or file access

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever to perform the function of anti-malware. And over the years, Apple, I think, has made those

⏹️ ▶️ John hooks safer so that if there is a bug in the anti-malware, it doesn’t itself become a security exploit. Like, the network stack

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff is now used and moved into user space, I believe. And anyway, all that said,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t run anti-malware software. I never have, and I continue not to,

⏹️ ▶️ John not because I think anti-malware software is like bad for my computer or whatever. But for example, one

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that sprang to mind immediately is this bug I talked about at the top of the episode where my window dragging

⏹️ ▶️ John got all messed up. If I had any of those things installed, that would be my first thing that I would look for.

⏹️ ▶️ John What is in my operating system that’s third party at the lowest level messing

⏹️ ▶️ John with literally everything that happens, every file access, every network or whatever, that’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John be my first culprit to say, all right, uninstall that and see if the problem went away. Not because

⏹️ ▶️ John again, they’re doing anything bad or wrong, but just to perform the function of anti-malware, You have

⏹️ ▶️ John to be so deep in the system and you have to watch every single thing of a particular type that happens.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t just watch some network request or some file IO, like you would miss the malware, right? You have

⏹️ ▶️ John to be there and catch it all, right? And Apple itself already has an

⏹️ ▶️ John anti-malware system built into macOS at the lowest level. But it’s limited and there’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of surface area to it, but Apple uses it and periodically updates it with new malware or whatever. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like I’m running entirely unprotected, but the main reason I don’t run any anti-malware stuff is that, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s, there is a cost to running it. I was forced to run anti-malware stuff when I had my various jobby

⏹️ ▶️ John jobs, so I know what it’s like. There is a cost to running that stuff. Some of it can be worse than others, right? And

⏹️ ▶️ John the benefit is just not there, in my opinion. It’s not as if I’m like, well, it’s okay for you not to run it because you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John a savvy user and you won’t do anything dumb. No, like, I’m no, not much more savvy

⏹️ ▶️ John than the average user. Like, malware exploits human weakness and exploits

⏹️ ▶️ John your complete unawareness. I load web pages, I don’t have some magical knowledge that knows, hey, I’m sure this web page

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t exploit some zero day thing in my web. But no, I don’t know that any more than anybody else does. So I’ve been

⏹️ ▶️ John using Macs without antivirus, without anti-malware since 1984, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve never had a problem with it. So until that changes, there’s no way I’m going to voluntarily

⏹️ ▶️ John run some software that I know has downsides in exchange for an upside that I just do not see.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the answer to, you know, has this changed? Are we still running it? We’re still not running it. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ John I know companies have to run it probably for liability reasons, and if your company forces you to run it, I’m sorry, I’ve been there, it

⏹️ ▶️ John happens, right? But for regular people, I still think the correct answer is

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t install third-party Andy malware software unless you find that you need

⏹️ ▶️ John it. and I don’t think you will find that you need it.

#askatp: Mac-app private data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Jesse Wilson writes, in your discussion of live streams, John noted that doesn’t encrypt

⏹️ ▶️ Casey local application data. Does Mac, I don’t know if that’s still true, by the way, but at the time this was written.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah, at the time this was written, that was true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Does macOS allow apps to keep encryption keys and data private from one another? Do you have any Mac, do you use,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey excuse me, any Mac apps that encrypt their local data? John?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, macOS does allow apps to keep data private from one another. That’s what Keychain is for. Applications can

⏹️ ▶️ John store stuff in Keychain that other applications can’t see. Obviously on the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac, there’s always the top level root privilege where you can see everything and you as a user can

⏹️ ▶️ John unlock your view chain and look at all the contents, but there are mechanisms that application developers can do

⏹️ ▶️ John to try to keep their stuff separate from other people’s stuff. Sandboxing helps with that. Not every Mac app

⏹️ ▶️ John is sandboxed, but the ones in the Mac App Store are, and a sandbox Mac app really has very

⏹️ ▶️ John limited access to reach into what other apps are doing. Non-sandbox apps can

⏹️ ▶️ John reach pretty far and wide. So you have to trust the developer that’s making them. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the operating system does provide mechanisms to try to keep data private. And Keychain is the

⏹️ ▶️ John ultimate one of those. But you can’t just say, oh, well, because this mechanism exists, I’m sure every Mac app is safe. No, because developers

⏹️ ▶️ John have to use these APIs. They have to opt into sandboxing and so do other apps. And in the end, because it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac, you do have the ability to say, well, I’m just gonna become root and bypass

⏹️ ▶️ John all of these protections and just get it what I want. There is a higher level of that, like system

⏹️ ▶️ John integrity protection and having a read-only system volume. So, it is more secure than it was, so just keep

⏹️ ▶️ John that in mind. But yes, applications like Rewind can do better than leaving

⏹️ ▶️ John all their data unencrypted on disk. And I’m assuming that since this SKDP

⏹️ ▶️ John question was sent to us probably many months ago, that actually has changed with this specific application.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s tricky on the Mac because you could say, well, I’m using an encrypted disk.

⏹️ ▶️ John my laptop comes and I’m using encryption on the entire disk. It wasn’t everything encrypted and safe. Yeah, but you have to unlock

⏹️ ▶️ John it to use the computer. And when you’re logged into it and your screen is unlocked and everything’s

⏹️ ▶️ John unlocked and your key chain is unlocked, yeah, it’s all encrypted, what we call encrypted at rest, as in on the

⏹️ ▶️ John disk it’s encrypted. But right now, live on the computer, it’s ready and able to be read

⏹️ ▶️ John by anyone who sits in front of your keyboard and your mouse because your computer’s unlocked, your key chain is unlocked, and you know, so

⏹️ ▶️ John security’s complicated. But uh, but yeah, the standard is, uh, actually make it encrypted

⏹️ ▶️ John on the disk. Cause that way, if you shut down your computer and someone yanks out the SSD chip and tries to

⏹️ ▶️ John like read stuff from it or whatever, there are many levels of protection that’s preventing them from getting at it. But the final

⏹️ ▶️ John one would be, oh, and by the way, if you actually do have managed to read it, it’s all going to be encrypted anyway.

#askatp: M2 Mini over Studio?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed and finally true rights if you hadn’t already gotten the Mac studio for your wife

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John Would you now opt for the m2 Mac mini instead? I

⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t because I’m trying my goal with buying her computer is to you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ John Like buying my computer or my Honda Accord or whatever just get one and then make sure

⏹️ ▶️ John it is good for many many years So the m2 mini I think doesn’t come

⏹️ ▶️ John with the max chip the m2 max.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I believe that’s right

⏹️ ▶️ John It goes up to the pro only right you can’t outfit it with 64 gigs of RAM That is a big

⏹️ ▶️ John future-proofing thing because you know things just get more RAM hungry over time And there’s no SD card which seems

⏹️ ▶️ John silly But her previous 5k iMac had an SD card slot and so does her Mac Studio And I actually use

⏹️ ▶️ John it by sticking SD cards from my cameras into it even though it’s under the desk I can still get at the SD card slot So

⏹️ ▶️ John I personally wouldn’t but for a lot of people who don’t care about any of those things and aren’t trying to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John some sort future-proof computer, you can save a lot of money by buying an M2 Mac Mini with some decent specs rather than

⏹️ ▶️ John the studio.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental John didn’t do

⏹️ ▶️ John any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes at And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, check podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so

⏹️ ▶️ John long

Hops hates Apple TV+

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have a bit of an odd problem. Oh no. I don’t quite know how to fix

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Let me guess, let me guess. The fix is throwing lots of money at it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In this case, I don’t think so, because dog treats are pretty cheap.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not the ones that I get advertised on Instagram.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I was gonna say, I’m sure you can find like the super fussy ones.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Does

⏹️ ▶️ John your dog eat grass? Does your dog ever lick its own paw? Does your dog ever look at you? Your

⏹️ ▶️ John dog is probably dying from parasites. Buy these $40 treats, they last a week. Oh my God. Oh my word.

⏹️ ▶️ John All I got on Instagram is sick dog ads. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you mentioned earlier, Casey, that you have all your phones on mute because why would you ever need to hear sound effects?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have started doing this myself. I actually have had my phone on loud

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mode much over the last few years just because I live in the middle of nowhere in the winter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there’s no one around and so who cares? And so I’ll just leave it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on because sometimes maybe it’s out of my pocket or something. Somehow,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something has changed in the last couple of weeks where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my wonderful dog Hops, who is a tiny little 12 year old diabetic shit poop,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has started really freaking out with phone notification noises. And this is new.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco He’s not usually like a nervous dog. This is a new thing. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t figure out what was the inciting incident here. I thought, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe a phone notification noise preceded some traumatic event or nervous event

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for him, but I can’t figure out what that would be. My only theory is maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every time the phone dings, I subconsciously look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco alert towards it, and maybe that makes him nervous, that he thinks, oh no, something that requires

⏹️ ▶️ Marco alertness is happening. Maybe it’s something bad. That’s the only thing I think of, But even like, I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m that bad about it, honestly, but anyway, so it’s gotten to the point where, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing is, we have a lot of devices in our house. We have all of my stuff, we have all of Tiff’s stuff, all of Adam’s stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so trying to make sure that no devices unnecessarily play Apple’s default

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dings and do-do-doots, and like that’s actually very difficult. And this sounds, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of things that can cause that.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can be a mute switch family. I mean, I realize that I don’t actually know all

⏹️ ▶️ John the sounds that a phone might make because my phone is set to silent all the time and so is

⏹️ ▶️ John every other device in the house. And the few times I’ve turned it off, I’m like, oh my God, it makes a sound

⏹️ ▶️ John every time a message comes in and every time you send one, and I immediately turn it off so I know how Hopps feels because

⏹️ ▶️ John anytime I hear that sound, I also wanna break something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and to be clear, it’s not making him aggressive, it’s making him nervous.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s making me nervous

⏹️ ▶️ John too. I’m upset about the idea of your, bloop, bloop, ding, bloop, bloop. No, it’s like a giant

⏹️ ▶️ John video arcade. Please, just go around the house and put all the switches into mute. And it doesn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John to be in your pocket because when it vibrates and it’s on a hard surface, you can still hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Yeah, but also, but like, okay, so think, so also my Mac makes these sounds and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes I have it playing through speakers or at least open-backed headphones so he can definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John still hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. What is your alert sound set to? I just, I just, what if the defaults are? So, so I, what I hear a lot of- I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the default, look it up. What is it? Is it funk? Is it glass? So glass is the one that’s ting, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is that that one? That one is definitely one that gets it. So as far as I can tell, it’s at least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that he hates that. And I think he also hates the do-do-do, that’s like the standard iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notification sound. So there’s two problems. Number one, we have a ton of devices in the house

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and three of them are Macs. And so that’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be difficult to never play these sounds. The second problem is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we watch TV shows from Apple TV Plus. Plus. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Product

⏹️ ▶️ John placement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so we’ve been watching Ted Lasso and Shrinking recently, both of which take place like in the modern day.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John do like the fact that at least on Ted Lasso, I don’t watch Shrinking, but at least on Ted Lasso, they use the dynamic type features

⏹️ ▶️ John of the OS to make the text readable on screen rather than faking the stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey shows. No way, it’s all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco faked.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s all faked.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, they fake it with real, I think with actual video footage. It is composited

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the sense that it’s faked that way. Exactly. using iOS it looks like.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s the real apps and the real OS and the real dynamic type type feature, which I think looks so much

⏹️ ▶️ John better than when they, you know, try to take an interface and blow up the text for the purposes of reading on the screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not actually a supported thing on the future. And yes, the screens are composited of on so they read on camera, but I’m just saying the

⏹️ ▶️ John the actual software is real Apple software only with, you know, you just assume everyone in Ted Lasso has bad vision

⏹️ ▶️ John because the fonts are all cranked up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yeah, I so you know, in all in Ted Lasso and in shrinking, and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think the morning show also had this, that hasn’t come back yet, but when we watched that, I think they have a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like, you know, showing iPhones having text chats. And so you end up hearing a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ting and doodle-doot, you hear, and the woo, whatever the, you know, the iMessage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John sounded. I feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like that is a bad character moment, because granted, some characters would be terrible people who have the sounds on, but some

⏹️ ▶️ John characters would have the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco sound. And they

⏹️ ▶️ John just, I feel like Apple’s branding overrides everything. Look, everybody has to be, has to have the mute switch, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John set to the noisy mode, right? And that’s not true. Some character, I feel like it should be a character moment when we see

⏹️ ▶️ John what kind of character is a terrible person who lets their sounds go on their phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Agreed, but setting that aside, it doesn’t solve my problem. So, like, it’s very hard to watch these shows now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without, you know, some ting will happen on the show. And then, like, Hobbes is, he’s basically, he likes, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, he leaves his normal TV state for years, has been, you know, tipped over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco power save mode, you know, as we’re watching TV at night. And he’s now, like, you know, climbing on me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nervous. Like, this is so unlikely. So I’m trying to like, how, like, what do I do? So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought, you know, at first I’m like, maybe I should like start playing the sounds and giving them a treat.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, every time the sound plays, give them a treat,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. Yeah, like resensitize it to be a positive thing. But then like, I’m worried, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, am I gonna break my dog? Is he gonna then wanna treat every time my computer actually makes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the ding sound? Like, I don’t know. Or am I gonna like confuse his association and then make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco him hate treats? I don’t know, I don’t know what to do. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, the thing you should actually do from a dog training perspective that I don’t actually know how to do, but I think this is

⏹️ ▶️ John what dog trainers would tell you, is what you want to reward is not, hey, when you hear the sound, you get the treat. What

⏹️ ▶️ John you wanna reward is the behavior you want. And the behavior you want is, sound goes off and dog

⏹️ ▶️ John remains calm. And so you have to find the smallest

⏹️ ▶️ John reproduction of that phenomenon where he can actually remain calm, because right now he can’t remain calm. The sound goes off

⏹️ ▶️ John and he isn’t calm. So you have to find something like, some noise that is like that noise,

⏹️ ▶️ John but not that, like, yes, you have to say a noise happened and you remained calm and that’s what you

⏹️ ▶️ John reward, the calmness after the noise, then you’d work your way up to the actual noise that he is now coming. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know how to do that because like, what do you use as the, you want the dog to be successful essentially. So you need a scenario

⏹️ ▶️ John where I can make a noise that is close to the ding noise, but it is not the ding noise, such that I know Hopps

⏹️ ▶️ John will successfully be chill about it. And when he’s chill, you reward him for the chillness. And what that trains him

⏹️ ▶️ John to do is then eventually you work your way up to want to hear the noise. His reaction is, I want

⏹️ ▶️ John to hear that noise. If I’m chill, I’ll get a treat. And then he’s chill and then you give him the treat.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s the theory behind what you’re quote unquote supposed to do. And in theory, it would work. I just have no friggin idea how

⏹️ ▶️ John you would do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not sure his stack is that big. Like I don’t think he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John can actually.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is how a dog training works. It is for the people who know how to do it. Somehow they’re able to train their dogs to like do their

⏹️ ▶️ John taxes for them. this technique through a series of very tiny steps. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John I started out just by, you know, like I would knock on the floor with one finger and if the dog

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t bark, I would give it a treat. And now a marching band can go up to the front door and the dog’s just, their reaction

⏹️ ▶️ John is, we’re just going to be so relaxed and calm because we know if we just lay here and snore, we’ll get a treat. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know if those were ever shih tzus though.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John that, I mean, that is, you know, you say that and you’re like, well, sure it works for your dog. Your dog is magical.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not going to work for my dog or my breed or whatever. But the dog training people, I’ve seen them train all sorts of

⏹️ ▶️ John dogs that you think should not be able to do taxes, and they’re just filing returns. So I don’t know. I don’t know what

⏹️ ▶️ John magic they know how to do that we don’t know how to do. But purely with positive reinforcement and a series

⏹️ ▶️ John of minute, mind numbingly boring steps over the course of months, they train these dogs to do amazing things.

⏹️ ▶️ John I watch too much of this on YouTube. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I don’t know. I just like because I don’t I don’t want to like It’s been a while

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since we’ve had to train him for anything because he’s such a chill dog in every other possible way. He always has been. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he’s been a very easy dog to keep on the good path. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, he’s 12. And so we haven’t really had to train much of anything since he was a puppy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So. You know, when people get older, you have the same problems. I know. And the problem, and he’s never really been nervous

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about stuff. So that’s another thing where it’s like, I don’t really know how to handle this yet. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one thing’s for sure, it’s really hard to watch any Apple TV Plus

⏹️ ▶️ John shows

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco with this problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John The other thing I get advertised on, people talking about it in the chat room, I get advertised on Instagram is the, basically, Pot

⏹️ ▶️ John for Dogs, the little doggy drugs. Like, oh, my dog used to be so nervous, but now I give him these little druggy

⏹️ ▶️ John treats and he’s chill on a car ride.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CBD, I’m not doing that. That sounds like a terrible idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t, I mean, hey, you should try it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, if you try it and your dog likes it and it solves the problem, I don’t know. you’d probably talk to your vet

⏹️ ▶️ John about like, are any of these actually effective? Which one of them will not kill my dog? Like, I would say talk

⏹️ ▶️ John to your vet. Yeah, well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the other thing too is like, he has diabetes, I don’t wanna like mess with stuff too much, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t even, like it’s already,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I don’t even give him a lot of treats normally anyway just because of that. So I, like I already, if I’m gonna like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco set, you know, train him with treats, I gotta figure out like, okay, what’s like the, you know, the lowest calorie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco density treat I can give him that will actually work? And, you know, fortunately, you know, dogs aren’t that picky, you know, I can,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like. You can give him like a

⏹️ ▶️ John one millimeter square of bacon.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No, I mean he like his current treat. Yeah, I know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco his current treats are these like, you know They’re basically like chicken dust balls like that. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey there’s not much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s not an appealing brand name. I know it’s like dried chicken like formed into like a little disk Their logo is a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tumbleweed. Yeah, that’s what they look. They don’t look appealing at all, but he’s fun. He has low

⏹️ ▶️ Marco standards, you know He’s

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah the treats we give our dog I break up into like a thousand pieces because dogs just love the

⏹️ ▶️ John smell the treats so much the fact that they’re getting a piece of treat that’s the size of like a period at the end of a sentence, they’re still

⏹️ ▶️ John just as happy. And then that one treat lasts for like, you know, seven days as you break off tiny

⏹️ ▶️ John pieces of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. I guess he’s not, he doesn’t even like chew or enjoy. He just inhales whatever treat you get.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, yeah, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco His diabetic food keeps him so, he’s so hungry all the time. Poor guy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll have to give that a try. I have to like, you know, look at like what dog trainers say. And I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t, I don’t, I don’t understand how the dog training thing would work. I’m just saying that if you look online, you will

⏹️ ▶️ John find people saying, try to do this. But like, they always have scenarios that are just simpler. Like, you know, my dog barks whenever

⏹️ ▶️ John someone knocks at the door. And you can see the series of steps that you would do to like, how can my dog be successful? What is

⏹️ ▶️ John like knocking, but is minimally invasive? What if it’s not a stranger? What if it’s me? What if I tap one finger on the floor? And

⏹️ ▶️ John you can see them building up to it, but they do it like in a time-lapse. Or like fast forward, and now the dog knows how

⏹️ ▶️ John to do it. And you didn’t get to see me spending hours a day, not hours a day, but like, it’s only like five minutes a

⏹️ ▶️ John day, every single day for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco six months.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then the dog, but that’s how dog training actually works and sticks. And I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John if doing with old dogs is more difficult or not, but I would say talk to your vet about calming treats.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there are many, I know, because I get them advertised all the time, there are many calming treats for dogs that

⏹️ ▶️ John get nervous in car rides, or freak out when you’re not there, or so on and so forth. I

⏹️ ▶️ John personally have not had any success for them with

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey my dog, but

⏹️ ▶️ John mostly, we tried them a couple times when my dog was a puppy and she was, you know, a puppy,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like, that’s, you know, she grew out of that. Right. Um, but for your dog with, with a new thing, especially

⏹️ ▶️ John with senior dogs, maybe your vet knows like, Oh, you can actually try this and it will not be conflict with

⏹️ ▶️ John the diabetes and has been shown to work on older dogs, but do ask your vet.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thanks. I wonder kind of building on what John was saying. I wonder if, if maybe the approach which could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be you have Hopps do something he’s good at, like stay or sit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that, and just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco almost act as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though… He’s a 12-year-old shit-boo. His default behavior is staying.

⏹️ ▶️ John What is he good at? What is his major skill set? He mostly does UI

⏹️ ▶️ John kit, but he’s learning SwiftUI.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco He used to be our doorbell, but I think he’s been recently caring a lot less about that. So I think he might be retiring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from that job.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the point I’m driving at, whatever it may be. So let’s suppose that you’re in the context of doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like sit training, which obviously is kind of silly because he already knows how to do that. But in the midst of that, okay, hop,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sit, here’s your treat, hop, sit, here’s your treat. In the middle of that, then have one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the glass tones or tri-tone, whatever, fire off. And if hopefully he’s distracted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey enough to not lose his mind, and then maybe you say, okay, good job, here’s your treat. You know what I mean? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco like- That’s an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey interesting idea. a background thing and he only gets the treat

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if he doesn’t lose his frigging mind. But if he loses his frigging mind, then he say, no, no, no, you know, go and sit and whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then try it again in a few minutes and see what happens. I don’t know. That’s what I would

⏹️ ▶️ John do. Not getting the treat because he lost his mind has no effect on dogs like that. Like if you don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John the behavior you want and they don’t get the reward, that has no effect. The only thing that has effect is the,

⏹️ ▶️ John is rewarding the correct behavior, which is so frustrating. That’s why you have to find someplace where your dog can be successful. What

⏹️ ▶️ John is a thing that is like the thing I’m trying to train, but I know my dog will be successful? Because if your dog

⏹️ ▶️ John fails, that’s your failure as a trainer. They’re learning nothing from that. They only learn from success. They have to

⏹️ ▶️ John succeed. Whatever it is you’re trying to get them to do, whatever increment, they have to succeed and you can only reward the success.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because you’re training them, this is the behavior I want you to perform. Everything else, they do not make enough

⏹️ ▶️ John of a connection for to understand like you’re not getting a treat because you didn’t do the behavior.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there’s a million things I could have done. I have no logical connection to not getting a treat. All I know is I didn’t get one. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s all about reinforcing what you want. The opposite, punishing what you don’t want or withholding from what you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want is not as successful.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I would imagine it’s difficult to let the dog succeed in something where they’re getting anxious about something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it, you know. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like the knocking at the door, like or the strangers or whatever. It’s like a version training for like people who are like afraid of spiders.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, you show them a picture of a spider from across the room on day one. And like you work your way up over the months to like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, touching a spider, right? You have to find those increments, that they have to, unlike people where you can explain

⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s logic and everything, dogs have to succeed. So whatever it is you’re trying to get them to do, you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to find the thing where they succeed and so you can reward it. And then you keep cranking it up, and if you crank

⏹️ ▶️ John it up too fast and they fail, you go back a level. Let’s go back to where you’re successful, right? And that’s how you ratchet

⏹️ ▶️ John up that ladder. Or you could just mute all your computers and silence all your phones.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, that’s really, and not watch any Apple TV shows.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and then don’t ever go into a deep enough sleep where

⏹️ ▶️ John the sounds of the TV show does not wake him up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I have to observe more. I mean, oftentimes his regular tipped

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over power state on the couch watching TV at night, oftentimes that’s when he’ll start

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the adorable sleep barking. Yeah, the

⏹️ ▶️ John little twitchy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dreams. Ffff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco God, the best is when he wags his tail and he’s like slapping against the couch. Mm-hmm, the little

⏹️ ▶️ John paw twitchy dreams, yeah, they’re great. And the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little whoop, whoop. Just barking without opening his mouth. It’s so cute.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s usually during that time. So I think he’s in deep sleep a lot of that time, but I think it still gets through. I mean, the good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing is like, these noises are not difficult for us to reproduce. Any Mac I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have, I can just write a shell script in two seconds, just play it every five seconds if I have to. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t, it’s not difficult to generate the noise if that needs to be part of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the training, which it probably does.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s like the end of the training, maybe super low volume. I’m trying to think of what would a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco proxy be. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like something like that, you know? Or just like, or have it just play it like, you know, at random times,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every few seconds for a few minutes and just like try to like, I don’t know, sit with them, give them, I don’t know, I don’t know what it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is. I gotta figure it out.