Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

507: It Sucks, Doesn't It?

Lifestreams, more on Ventura, and — after months of resistance — we finally broke down and talked about Twitter.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Rapid tire deflation
  2. PSA: Apple Watch complications
  3. ATP Store 🖼️
  4. Follow-up: AirPods Pro 2 volume
  5. Sponsor: Linode
  6. 5G UWB plans on iPads
  7. HIG: Switch controls in Ventura
  8. Ventura Settings missing features
  9. iPad volume-button orientation
  10. Sponsor: Trade Coffee
  11. Apple TV and QMS VRR
  12. More on Shared Photo Library
  13. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  14. Lifestreams & Rewind
  15. the guy who owns twitter now
  16. Ending theme
  17. Post-show

Rapid tire deflation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am here on time in part thanks to a product

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I never thought I would use before, a rapid tire deflator.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Isn’t that just called a knife? Yeah, right. I think a knife is the most rapid tire deflator,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but unfortunately that makes it difficult to use the tire afterwards. True.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I first got this when I first started driving on the beach because you’re supposed to air down your tires down to like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 20 PSI-ish range when you’re driving on the sand here to keep things, not only to keep yourself from getting stuck

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but to keep yourself from tearing up the beach too much unnecessarily and tearing up some of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco routes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I just realized, now that I’ve been thinking about this, it sucks, doesn’t it? Ha! Ha

⏹️ ▶️ John ha ha ha ha ha! No! Because that’s the only way it could work, right? Go on,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go on. So anyway, so I frequently have to change my tire pressure in both directions between

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 20-ish and like, you know, 40-ish PSI. If I’m going on a long highway drive,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want to put it up to about 40 just for additional rigidity and safety and a little bit of efficiency.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Although it’s a giant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco box, like it’s not gonna be that efficient, but you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How did you land on 40? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the car wants me to do 50 and I think that’s dumb. So I get impatient and stop.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No way it wants 50 pounds.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that what it says on the door jam?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thank

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco you, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it says 45 or 48 on the door jam. No way. Is this

⏹️ ▶️ John a case where Casey has to Google for the PDF of your car manual again?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yes. Either way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey the-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco What year is your car?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s a Land Rover Defender,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco what year? 2021.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will solve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco this. Okay. So, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it has like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the one that happened to be on the dealer a lot in the color I wanted, has this optional accessory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of an onboard inflator deflator thing, which is really fun. It’s in the trunk and you know, it comes with this big hose, it reaches all four tires.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s fun. It’s just slow. And so I haven’t found a rapid tire inflator yet besides, you know, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know, a bomb, but a rapid tire deflator is this thing that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s, again, I’ll put it in the show notes when I find the link and dig it up. But it’s this weird little contraption

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, normally if you want to deflate it higher quickly, you can do a compressor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that just kind of like holds the valve in and lets air out, or you can like poke the valve stem with a coin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a key or something if you want to do it that way. But what this thing does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is it screws onto the valve stem thing, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s an inner thing that you twist once it’s screwed onto the valve,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you twist this inner thing the opposite direction and it unscrews the inner valve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stem and lets it pop out inside of itself. And then you just like pop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a thing and it just, psh, like lets huge amounts of air out. It can go from 40 PSI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to 20 PSI in like 20 seconds. It’s massively fast. I find this very alarming. So like BB edit,

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t suck.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, it just basically disassembles your tire valve temporarily. And I was able to deflate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all four of my tires from 40 to 20 in less than five minutes. Like it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shockingly fast. So anyway, I don’t know who needs this product

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides a very small handful of people. But if you are one of those handful of people, this is amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Check it out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why is it so difficult for me to find the owner’s manual for this car? Why is this like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey state secrets? I will say, this is actually going to be the KCEO’s Marco Apology Tour

⏹️ ▶️ Casey episode apparently, but according to a spot of Googling, it was, I found a very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unofficial looking site that said it was like 47 or 50 pounds, which is what you said to your credit. And I said, no fricking way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I’m trying to find the actual owner’s manual and I can’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I was, one thing that like, it lets you kind of customize the different sections of the dashboard to a few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different selections. I want a constant display on the left side of the four tire pressures.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There is no option for that. However, if it’s below the recommended pressure,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it puts it up there by default until you click a certain button. And because mine are always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco below the record, this is why I know the recommendation is higher than 40 minor, always below the recommendation. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so because of that, as long as I don’t hit this one button, it’s displaying the four

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tire pressures all the time. We just a nice little accidental feature, but I’m really enjoying it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I owe you an apology. I am apparently very wrong. Oh wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay, oh no wait, I found it, but it’s not a PDF. Just give me a friggin’ PDF! God, I hate everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything.

PSA: Apple Watch complications

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So before we get into topics, I want to start this episode also with a public

⏹️ ▶️ Marco service announcement. If you know people in your life with Apple watches,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the most kind way possible, if you see them using an Apple Watch face

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has complications, you will blow their mind if at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some opportune time, if they’re open to such suggestions, you tell them, hey by the way you know you can change what those are.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So in my experience, I have a bunch of friends who are kind of nerdy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re nerdy enough to get an Apple Watch and they’re nerdy enough to care about it being good,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but not nerdy enough to be able to know some of that stuff like you can customize the face and all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco complications. And I’ve shown a couple of people this in the last couple of weeks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And these are people who’ve worn an Apple Watch for years. And every time, I’ll see that they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re using like the Infograph modular face, I mean, you know, it’s full of complications. And the default set is like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s okay, you know, you got a weather, okay, then you got like the compass, like, eh, it’s like how you, you know, there’s a couple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things on there that I think most people wouldn’t use. And so, and sometimes they’ll see mine, they’re like, oh, what face is that? Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mine’s of course all customized. And when I tell, when I show them like, hey, you can hold down here, swipe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over, and then you can change every single one of those to all these different things. Everyone’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh my God, like it changes their, it blows their mind. They’re so amazed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No one knows that you can customize watch faces, especially complications.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So just PSA, if someone you know uses a face with complications, and you see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they’re all the defaults because they usually are, again, some opportune time, don’t be like the annoying nerd, like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at some nice time, be like, hey, by the way, you know you can change that, and here’s how, and show them how. You can also show them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they can have multiple faces they can swipe between really easily. No one knows that either.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And both of those things I have had very strong, positive reactions to when I have shown people.

⏹️ ▶️ John As a non-Apple watch wearer who does know that you can change complications, every time I try to change complications

⏹️ ▶️ John on someone else’s Apple Watch for them, I have to like re-figure out how to do it. It is not an

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey obvious

⏹️ ▶️ John UI,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey so I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t really blame people for not knowing. I mean, I kind of blame them for not knowing it’s possible, but

⏹️ ▶️ John even when you know it’s possible, it’s not obvious how to do it if you haven’t done it recently.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. like so many things about, you know, touch screen discoverability, like it’s so much worse on the watch cause like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco such a small screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is way worse than the watch cause there’s just nothing, there’s nothing there for you. And I think the, to

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of the credit to the original Apple design, having two things that you can press, the button

⏹️ ▶️ John and the crown both press in, does add to the number of possibilities of things that I have to blindly try

⏹️ ▶️ John before I figure out how to work things. And then of course, oh, I forgot you can turn the crown too. And it’s like, it’s just, I go

⏹️ ▶️ John through the same little dance every time I do it, it’s ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you know, Marco, if you have 18, 19, 20, or 22 inch rims? 19. Then 47 pounds up front, 50 in the back.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Bam! I am wrong. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey done. I have never seen tire pressures that high. Goodness.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re big tires, right? It’s big. I mean, I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey guess. Yeah, they’re pretty big.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I did eventually find it because Google, not because of Land Rover site, which as I’ve heard is trash. Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But hey, you know what is not trash?

ATP Store

Chapter ATP Store image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What is not trash is ATP merch, which is available right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco now, baby,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash store. So, you know how every time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I say, Oh, you really got to order quick. Cause you never know. Something’s going to sell out. Huh? You never know. Well, guess

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what? Guess what? It’s happened. Chicken hats, boom, gone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Second run of chicken hats, which we did like under duress. Boom, gone. Pine glasses,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gone. Mugs, gone. You snooze, you lose. No sympathy for me. This is what you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get. You had sympathy from the other two, not from me. I warned you. I warned you. We did the visualization

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exercise, which I’m pretty sure I stole from Mike Hurley. We did the exercise together. You still didn’t order and this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on you. But for those that haven’t ordered and would still like lovely, excellent, delightful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey merch, we still have M2 shirts in colored and monochrome versions. We have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the classic ATP logo shirt. We have the utterly delightful ATP hoodie, all available. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you are interested and you You should be. Go to You can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buy any of these four items, the two different varieties of shirt, well three if you include the ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one and the hoodie, all available. And remember members, if you are a member, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can become a member at Then you get 15% off. You can get your bespoke discount

⏹️ ▶️ Casey code on your member page. It’s all linked from Go get yourself some treats. Treat yourself.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You deserve a treat. You deserve several treats. Treat yourself. Treat your friends. Treat everybody,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A

⏹️ ▶️ John couple more items on the store. Reminder about the monochrome

⏹️ ▶️ John M2 shirt. It just shows like a blue shirt with white, but it comes in a whole bunch of different colors. So if you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the regular M2 one, the really expensive one with the color stripes just comes in black, but this other

⏹️ ▶️ John one comes in like red, purple, green, pink, teal, so check out the different colors. I think a lot of them look really good.

⏹️ ▶️ John Second thing, if you, for one of the sold out items, chicken hat, pint glass, or a mug, all

⏹️ ▶️ John three of which I specifically warned you about last week as the ones that would sell at first. And they did in the order

⏹️ ▶️ John that I said.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, in all fairness, before we reckon people too hard on this, which Casey already did, you do have some sympathy for me because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the first batch of the chicken hats, it was like halfway gone before we even published the episode just from bootleg

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listeners.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that is true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco That is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John true.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco We ordered,

⏹️ ▶️ John we guessed wrong on the demand for the chicken hat. That’s on us.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey But we did do a second order.

⏹️ ▶️ John And we did a second order for more than twice the amount of the first order. And that sold out too.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as much as I’m snarking earlier, that is 100% accurate. And that is 100% on us, that we clearly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey underestimate, which is lovely and actually a heck of a compliment from our wonderful listeners. It was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a complete miss on our part. We thought nobody would be interested in a hat that we presented

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as something that John bought 20 years ago and really likes. But it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John turns out. And it’s weird shaped.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s weird shaped. But it turns out the pole of John Syracuse has no bounds, knows no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John bounds. Morbid

⏹️ ▶️ John curiosity is what I would call it. But anyway, related to the sold out items, if you go,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re still on the store pages, just put like sold out text on them, but you can still click through on them. Click the little buy link, click the name,

⏹️ ▶️ John click the image. Like anyway, you click through to the item. It has a button on the store that says bring it

⏹️ ▶️ John back. It’s just Cotton Beer is like normal, like, hey, I want this even though it’s not in stock. If you still want

⏹️ ▶️ John a hat, a pint glass, or a mug, click through on it and then click the bring it back thing. It makes you enter the

⏹️ ▶️ John email address because they want to email you when it comes back in stock. And I know that’s annoying, Content-Beer is good with email. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John how we knew, sort of, that’s how we gauged demand for the second order of chicken hats based on how many

⏹️ ▶️ John people clicked the bring it back link and entered an email address. And that gave us a rough estimate of how many

⏹️ ▶️ John people probably wanted them. And I think we got it pretty close because towards the end of selling out of the chicken hats, the sales

⏹️ ▶️ John were really slowing down. It was like, just real, like a real trickle, like the number wouldn’t move at all for like hours

⏹️ ▶️ John at a time. So I think we kind of mostly met demand, but we’re not entirely sure. And the mugs we did a

⏹️ ▶️ John new order of and the pint glass we were just selling through an old order. So in order for us to have a better idea

⏹️ ▶️ John for the next sale, how much demand there is for this stuff, you can use that bring it back button

⏹️ ▶️ John and it just ticks up a counter that we can see on our internal dashboards to know how many people are actually interested in this

⏹️ ▶️ John again. So that’s my suggestion there. And then finally, lots of people are sending pictures

⏹️ ▶️ John of their chicken hats. If you ordered it, especially if you were in the first batch you might get them already. I already got my chicken hat

⏹️ ▶️ John and lots of people are getting them. Because the things that are in stock, like I think, I’m not sure about the mugs the blind glasses,

⏹️ ▶️ John but certainly the hats. They just ship them as soon as they get them. The other ones we have to wait until the campaign is over so they know how many they have to print

⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re gonna make them based on how many people order them. Anyway, people are sending me pictures of them

⏹️ ▶️ John wearing the chicken hat. You know, bad on us for not including instructions with the hat and far be it for me to tell

⏹️ ▶️ John you how

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to wear hats.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I was like, yeah, you put it on your head. Like people are getting that far. Comma. But

⏹️ ▶️ John part of the reason it’s called the chicken hat is because it looks a little bit like the little thing on top of

⏹️ ▶️ John a chicken or a rooster’s head, the little floppy thing? The little mohawk thing? Yeah, and that mohawk

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, it’s like a vertical fin that goes from front to back. That’s how, I’m not gonna say supposed to

⏹️ ▶️ John be worn, but that’s how I wear the chicken hat, is front to back, like a shark fin,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And then second thing to know is, this hat, although

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s pretty uniform, it does have a seam, like there is a seam down one part, and the seam goes in

⏹️ ▶️ John the back, like most items of clothing that have a seam, the seam goes in the back, which means

⏹️ ▶️ John that the little ATP tag is also more towards the back. Originally we wanted that tag to be in the front, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they made the first batch of them with them on the back and then seeing people like put

⏹️ ▶️ John them on their heads and especially with glasses, the tag when it’s on the front kind of interferes with the glasses and messes

⏹️ ▶️ John up sort of the line of the thing so we made the second batch. I said, put the tag in the back, I think it looks better there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But everybody who I see wearing this online thinks the tag goes in the front. And it can, like it’s a uniform hat, it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John single color, no one’s gonna see that the seam is in the front. But technically the seam goes in the back

⏹️ ▶️ John and the hat goes vertically forward and backwards. You wanna wear it any other way, feel free. It’s your hat, you

⏹️ ▶️ John can do whatever you want with it, but I’m just saying for the, if you’re wondering how does John wear his chicken hat?

⏹️ ▶️ John I wear it chicken style, like a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco dorsal fin

⏹️ ▶️ John with the seam in the back.

Follow-up: AirPods Pro 2 volume

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we got a lot to talk about. Let’s do some follow-up. I need to continue my apology tour for Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apparently based on our feedback freaking nobody knew how to use the air pods

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to or air pods Pro to volume control

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Vindicated.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I assumed that this was obvious. I do not have Pro 2. I only have the the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pedestrian original og air pods Pro And I I just assumed this was pretty self-explanatory

⏹️ ▶️ Casey explanatory and wow did I assume wrong because we got a lot of very kind feedback saying oh my goodness Thank

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you so much for telling me how to do this. I had no idea so Marco first of all I’m sorry because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I was I was snickering in your general direction last week and saying oh my gosh Are you serious and turns out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was wrong second of all would you mind reiterating since we brought it up again? Can you can you just quickly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reiterate? How is it that you control the volume on an AirPods Pro 2, please?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you don’t use two different fingers in motion as I was doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like front and back kind of you know Doing something to it. You don’t do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Instead you put the thumb of your hand on like in the back of the stem to hold

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in place and with your index Finger you swipe up or down on the front

⏹️ ▶️ Marco flat part of the stick to to change volume up and down. And you know you did it because only that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AirPod will make a little click sound out of that ear to confirm that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you did it. And so my mistake was moving both fingers. What you’re supposed to do is support it with one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco finger and swipe with the other.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, so my apologies, Marco, you were right to bring it up and I was wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m so happy, so many people wrote in and were like, yeah, I didn’t know how to do it either, or I’ve been doing it wrong, I also wrote

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it off. I’m so vindicated, I thought I was the only one. I felt so dumb when I finally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco figured it out. And that’s why I brought it up on the show to be like, hopefully somebody else

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can feel less dumb by this. And sure enough, many people now feel less dumb.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John So mission accomplished. Dozens,

⏹️ ▶️ John dozens. Yes. And hearing your complication story, I wonder if the people who didn’t know that you could adjust the volume by swiping or were just too

⏹️ ▶️ John embarrassed to write it. You can change complications? What?

⏹️ ▶️ John You can change, well, and keep in mind, this volume thing only works on the AirPods Pro 2. It

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John work on the AirPods 3, it doesn’t work on the original AirPods Pro, even though they all look kind of similar.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Linode, my favorite place to run servers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Visit slash ATP and see why so many people, including us,

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5G UWB plans on iPads

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have a little bit of news about my beloved, don’t call it a park bench, picnic table.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I went there to do a little bit of work today because it was very nice day here in Richmond. It’s just a touch chilly, but not too bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I was all slick with myself. I was all excited because I’ve got my fancy pants, new iPad pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s got 5G. It can support 5G ultra wide band by Verizon, baby,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m ready. I got there and my phone, you know, took a few seconds,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but my phone shows 5G UW, 5G ultra wide band. I am ready to rock on the phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The iPad says, you got 5G. So I wait a little bit, still got 5G.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait a little bit, kind of diddle around on the iPad a little bit, you know, do a text test just to see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if that would kick it into like, you know, high gear or whatever. And I look and it’s still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just 5G. Oh no. Did your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco phone work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on it? Oh yeah, my phone was fine. My phone was good to go. So OK, what’s going on here?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Remember that this has a physical SIM. I was briefly confused by this when I did the transfer because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was waiting for it to transfer the eSIM that wasn’t an eSIM. But anyways, so I get on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Verizon chat, which, while annoying, has actually got a pretty high success rate, their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey online chat, for getting me an answer and or getting me what I want.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got my cable card through the online chat. That mostly worked. I’ve done a lot of stuff via

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the online chat. And so I get on the online chat and I did that thing you should never do. And I kind of led

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with, do I need a new SIM card? You know, is the SIM card, which was, you know, originally in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an iPad that did not support 5G, it only supported LTE. Does the SIM card

⏹️ ▶️ Casey perhaps not have whatever magic, you know, bit flipped or whatever it may need in order

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get 5G ultra wideband. And after a considerable amount of time waiting for the person

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was surely helping 35 other people, It turns out that there are multiple iPad plans

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Verizon. The one that I have is normally $20 a month, but because of my phone’s plan, I only pay $10 a month for it, it’s half off.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that gives me 5G, and it gives me 15 gigs of data,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of quote-unquote premium data, which I guess means basically you get 15 gigs and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they start to throttle you. But if I want ultra wide band, I need to go to $30 a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey month, which I think would only be five bucks more for me, because I think all of the iPad plans are half off, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got to do some research on this. But anyway, so it’s strictly speaking $30 a month, then I can get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my 5G Ultra Wideband and I go from 15 gigs of premium data to 30 gigs.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I got to confirm, cause this is not worth an additional $10 a month. Cause remember,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, my plan is supposed to be 20. I pay 10 because of the way I have my phone set up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would pay probably $5 more a month for this because darn it, I want my Ultra Wideband. That’s the whole point, man.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t think I would pay 10 more dollars for this. So I got to figure out what the story is. Yes, I know I’m frugal slash cheap slash whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I gotta look into that. But I just thought in case anyone else, yes, it’s kind of another PSA, another entry in the PSA corner,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in case anyone else was confused, that apparently is the case for Verizon. I cannot speak for any other carrier. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just, I did not expect that. So I was disappointed, but I was at least happy to understand it. So there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is this also another case where if you were to hotspot to your phone, you’d be throttled by the Bluetooth bandwidth

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco maybe?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, or whether it’s using Bluetooth or wifi, Yeah, you’re way throttled, but even by Wi-Fi you’d be throttled.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s correct. In fact, when I first was piddling with the ultra-wideband stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had done it via a physical USB connection to my computer, and it was dog slow on the computer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey end. And I’m like, what the heck? I’ve got like two and a half gigabits per second down on the phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, right. This is USB 2.0. It’s slower than dirt. Whoopsie-dipsie. And so I decided,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, if I’m going to tether, I am not going to tether via the USB connection. I’m not going to tether to your point via Bluetooth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will tether via Wi-Fi. Even if I have the phone connected to the computer for power purposes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will still tether via Wi-Fi because that is as close as I can get to full bandwidth

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from ultra wide band. So yeah, you’re exactly right. Anyway, I just thought that was fascinating.

HIG: Switch controls in Ventura

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have a lot to talk about with regard to system settings John tell me about this in Ventura, please

⏹️ ▶️ John This was something someone asked about a while ago that I found when I was digging through some old stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John Regarding the switch controls in system settings that switch is like the ones on your iPhone when you go to settings in your

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone There’s a little on off switch that goes horizontal a little little circle goes horizontally in a little channel,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And of course system settings in Ventura looks a lot like that now

⏹️ ▶️ John And lots of people were throwing this entry from the Apple human interface guidelines back in Apple’s face when the betas were out

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s worth it’s not the this is not the item that Was brought to my attention, but is relevant to it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So in the Apple here I get a location that will link in the show notes Apple says avoid using a switch control

⏹️ ▶️ John for a single detail date detail or minor setting a switch has more visual weight than checkbox So it looks better

⏹️ ▶️ John when controls more functionality than a checkbox typically does for example You might use a switch to let people turn

⏹️ ▶️ John on or off a group of settings instead of just one settings One setting rather in general don’t replace a checkbox

⏹️ ▶️ John with a switch if you’re already using a checkbox in your interface It’s probably best to keep using it That’s what the Apple human

⏹️ ▶️ John interface guidelines are it say arguably Apple violates that ten ways to Sunday but with the Ventura system

⏹️ ▶️ John settings because pretty much all those things used to be checkboxes and they didn’t leave them alone and Pretty much all of them are

⏹️ ▶️ John controlling a single detail or minor setting so there’s that right? But that’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ John biggest thing, because you can argue, oh, well, is this a minor setting, is it a big setting, is it important for it to match the iOS settings

⏹️ ▶️ John for familiarity? You can go all around in different directions on that, although it is kind of weird that it is directly

⏹️ ▶️ John in violation of what they say in the Apple Interface Guidelines. But this is inarguable in another example of,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, just sort of not meeting the minimum standard for Mac user interface.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this, kind of like complications, or possibly changing the volume on your AirPods, it may be a thing that nobody knows

⏹️ ▶️ John about, but I feel like if anyone should know about it, it’s the people making GUIs for the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac who work at Apple. I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s too high of a standard.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that is this, on the Mac, when you have a checkbox, and also on the web, by the way, if you do it right,

⏹️ ▶️ John but anyway, on the Mac, if you have a checkbox and it says like, you know, turn on turbo lasers,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s got a checkbox and the text next to the checkbox says turn on turbo lasers, right? Or turbo lasers on, I don’t know. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John doing a bad job with the copy here, but suffice to say there’s a label next to the checkbox. You can click the checkbox

⏹️ ▶️ John to make the checkbox be on or off. But you can also click the label text.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the reason why you might wanna do that is the label text is way bigger than the checkbox. Checkboxes are

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty small. They can be hard to even see. That’s one of the arguments people make for switches. Oh, the switches

⏹️ ▶️ John are so much bigger than checkbox. They should use the switches because they’re just easier to hit. It’s a bigger target and there is something to

⏹️ ▶️ John it being a bigger target, right? Although the switches on Mac are actually kind of small. But the label

⏹️ ▶️ John is a way bigger target. It’s very wide and just as high as the checkbox, if not higher. That’s why on the Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can click the label anywhere in the label text, and it will activate and deactivate the checkbox.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you can do it on the web, if you know what you’re doing, and you should. And if you don’t do it on the web, you should feel bad. All right.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the question was, hey, in Ventura system settings, when they have these big long

⏹️ ▶️ John lists of labels and switches, can you click the label to toggle the switch? And the answer

⏹️ ▶️ John is, at least in the one that I tested, no, you can’t, and that is bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John That is very bad, because that is way worse than a checkbox. And yes, I know the labels are distant from the slider,

⏹️ ▶️ John from the little switch too, instead of right next to all the checkboxes, but I think it’s also kind of bad. But why can’t I click the

⏹️ ▶️ John label to activate and deactivate the slider? That is a Mac idiom, and this is a replacement for a,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t know, maybe there’s somewhere in the human intersex guidelines where they say explicitly don’t do this, but that makes the targets for every one of these

⏹️ ▶️ John little things so much smaller than they used to be. They’re bigger than checkboxes, but they’re way smaller than a checkbox and a label.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I just don’t understand that. I don’t understand how that comes to be, where they

⏹️ ▶️ John replace all the check boxes with this kind of control, and then, oh, and by the way, we forgot for this type of control to make the

⏹️ ▶️ John label clickable. Upsetting. Very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey upsetting.

Ventura Settings missing features

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then apparently some things are disappearing from the settings,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey system settings, system preferences, whatever it’s called.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we noted like the network locations was gone. I don’t know why that feature disappeared, but it did. But there’s one more feature that

⏹️ ▶️ John disappeared and it’s relevant to my interest because I use this feature. It’s a feature I’ve talked about in the past that used to

⏹️ ▶️ John be an energy saver in system preferences. There was a GUI for setting a time when you want your computer

⏹️ ▶️ John to wake up and setting a time when you want your computer to go to sleep. And I use these features to have my computer wake up in the middle of the

⏹️ ▶️ John night when I’m sleeping, do a bunch of backup stuff and then go to sleep. So I put my computer to sleep and

⏹️ ▶️ John I go to bed and then while I’m sleeping, it wakes up, does a bunch of stuff, backup stuff, and then goes back to sleep, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Those, the ability to do that, like timed waking up and going to sleep, still exists in the OS.

⏹️ ▶️ John They just either got rid of or didn’t have time to reinvent the GUI for that, which is kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of a shame. We’ll put a link in the show notes to Apple’s support document that shows you how to do it from the

⏹️ ▶️ John command line. So I had to go and, you know, read the man page and come up with the command lines that are equivalent to

⏹️ ▶️ John my settings in case I ever want to restore them. It’s an easy way to get rid of the schedule and it’s an easy way to

⏹️ ▶️ John add it back. So it’s not so bad, but no one’s ever going to find this document. The GUI was a much friendlier

⏹️ ▶️ John way to let people change this. And since the feature is still there, I hope the GUI will come back someday.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. A really quick thing I wanted to note. I should have talked about this earlier, but completely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slipped my mind.

iPad volume-button orientation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am not trying to be funny. When did landscape iPads start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey treating the volume up down, physical volume up down switches as backwards?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, they do?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right? Thank

⏹️ ▶️ John you. Hold on,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco let me see if

⏹️ ▶️ John my… What do you consider backwards when it’s left and right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, so here’s the thing. I will, this is like natural scrolling all over, which I believe in.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe in natural scrolling. But last I recall, I don’t think either of you do, but…

⏹️ ▶️ John I do not. And I disagree with the terminology too. It’s like a death tax.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I don’t accept your framing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m just using the Apple terminology.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I know, I don’t accept that framing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey either. The way I’m used to it is that, okay, hold your iPad, either mentally or physically,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hold your iPad in portrait, you know, tall. So on the right-hand side, for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey larger iPads anyway, the volume up button is the top button, volume down

⏹️ ▶️ Casey button is the bottom button, right? So far, so good. That makes sense. Take that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and twist it counterclockwise. So you’re taking the top and sliding it so it’s now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the left. I am used to, and in every other iPad I’ve ever used, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey left side is volume up, the right side is volume down because it’s the same

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John function.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the same button as it was before. If you had kept your finger on the buttons, it would be the same button. That’s what mine’s doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So on my brand new iPad, and I believe I read that the Mini is doing this as well, but I could have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that wrong. On the brand new iPad, which actually is not in the room with me, I wish it was, But if I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have a portrait twist 90 degrees to the left, so now the top is the left, volume

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up is the rightmost button, volume down is the leftmost button. Now, if you think about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it for half a second, that actually does make more sense because you are looking at the meter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as you’re voluming up and down, and as you increase volume, it goes to the right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey As you decrease volume-

⏹️ ▶️ John If you change your language to Arabic, does it change?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, or Hebrew or something.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so Benzie in the chat has, and Jitengjer in the chat also have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco posted, have pointed out, this is actually now a setting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I looked for that, and I must have missed it, because I looked for it and didn’t see, oh no, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s what it was. I told myself, no, embrace it. This is backwards.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The way you’re used to doing it, Casey, is backwards.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just like a quote-unquote natural scrolling

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey advocate would do. Correct,

⏹️ ▶️ John exactly right. Exactly right. And now you see the error of your ways, don’t you? Now that you know the setting’s there,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can restore sanity.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I disagree. I think this does make more sense. It’s just because it’s not what I’m used to that I’m flummoxed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by it. But I do think it actually makes more sense because again, as you’re voluming up, this slider is moving from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey left to right. As you’re voluming down, it’s moving from right to left. So it does make sense.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the fact that the buttons are software controlled, which obviously they were the whole time, but like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you feel, or I felt at least, as though they were hardware buttons. Does that make sense? like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this button will always and forever be volume up. This other button will always and forever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be volume down. And it turns out that, well, no, they aren’t quote unquote

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hardware buttons. They’re just, you know, giving a hint to the software to do something. And yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it actually does make sense to me anyway, to have the right one go up and the left one go down. But it took me by such

⏹️ ▶️ Casey surprise. And I forget what I was doing. I don’t think I was like in bed with Aaron or anything like that, but it was at a time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I was not expecting a bunch of volume. and I wanted to turn the iPad down, and I mashed down

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the right-hand button because I was in landscape, I mashed down the right-hand button, it just got louder,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I was like, oh my God, what’s happening? And then it occurred to me, oh, this is reversed. Unintended

⏹️ ▶️ Marco volume acceleration?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly right. Hashtag Toyota, am I right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But anyway, so yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Come on, get the fake story right. Oh, sorry, my mistake. Are you sure it wasn’t Toyota? I guess it was a later Toyota.

⏹️ ▶️ John The Audi one wasn’t real, I think, but I don’t remember. I thought

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it was Toyota. Either of them were

⏹️ ▶️ Marco super real. The big story was about Toyota, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it was a little not super solid of a story.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well anyway, for the volume button thing, I guess we have to wait for Apple to come out with the brand new landscape volume

⏹️ ▶️ John buttons to match their landscape camera, which is what they call it when they move the camera to the other side. Well, if they move the volume

⏹️ ▶️ John buttons to the other side of the iPad, I guess, like the short side, then it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be up, well, it’ll be up on landscape. It’ll basically give the landscape one a top. I guess it already has

⏹️ ▶️ John a top, because once you put the camera on the landscape edge, that’s the top in landscape. So then they can put the volume button somewhere,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then I guess, you know, they would be on the left side, and then up would be volume, up and down would be volume down. And then

⏹️ ▶️ John you could debate how they should work when it’s in portrait.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah. Anyway, this took me by surprise. Obviously- Apparently that’s how the mini works too?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah, I think that’s correct. Because they had to

⏹️ ▶️ John have room for the pencil, that’s right. The pencil’s along the edge.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, again, I don’t have a mini, so I can’t verify, but I believe that’s correct. Anyway, I just thought that was very, very confusing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and surprising. And I don’t remember that having been mentioned anywhere. Perhaps it was.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was probably mentioned in the keynote, but it was a long time ago.

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Apple TV and QMS VRR

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, would you tell me about the great news coming out of The Verge, among other places, with regard to the new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple TV 4K, which arrives Friday, if I’m not mistaken. Isn’t that right? I think

⏹️ ▶️ John so. Yeah, it’s okay news. We talked about, I should have had the

⏹️ ▶️ John expansion of the abbreviation in the notes here, with the quick media sync, I believe it was, QMS, HDMI

⏹️ ▶️ John QMS. It was part of the HDMI 2.1 standard that lets the television change

⏹️ ▶️ John frame rates without blacking out the screen like using the leveraging the VRR the variable refresh

⏹️ ▶️ John rate feature that already is in HDMI the main television support QMS is a thing on top of that that would

⏹️ ▶️ John try to avoid some of those black screens I talked about the limitations of it last week that One limitations that

⏹️ ▶️ John everything except for the frame rate has to stay the same and I wasn’t sure if that included HDR versus SDR so you still might be getting black screens

⏹️ ▶️ John when you go from your Apple TV menu screen to video program if the

⏹️ ▶️ John HDR nist doesn’t match but we’ll see but the real main limitation is is both devices

⏹️ ▶️ John have to support HDMI QMS. And so the news is that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple says that, and I don’t know, this was in the Verge article and a bunch of other articles, Apple must have just told people reviewing

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple TV this information, but Apple basically says that the Apple TV 4K will be getting QMS

⏹️ ▶️ John in a future software update. No timelines or whatever, but it’s coming, right? But as the

⏹️ ▶️ John Verge article says, how many TVs work with QMS VR or U.S.? Well, zero at the

⏹️ ▶️ John moment, but you’ll start seeing them hit the market next year. I really hope they’ll be able to do firmware updates because

⏹️ ▶️ John if you already support VRR, which most fancy modern TVs do, supporting QMS VRR seems like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s within the realm of possibility for a firmware update, but you never know with TV makers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sometimes they just never update old TVs to be able to do something that a new TV does. So my fingers are crossed

⏹️ ▶️ John for my television, which doesn’t currently support QMS, that someday in the future

⏹️ ▶️ John it will support QMS And also someday in the future, the Apple TV 4K that’s coming to my house will eventually support

⏹️ ▶️ John QMS. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I was looking at this briefly and I believe that VR and QMS are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of HDMI 2.1, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re optional, like every part of HDMI 2.1.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I guess the question is, what version of HDMI do all of our televisions

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John support?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not the version, the standard is so crappy. You can be compliant with HDMI 2.1 if you only

⏹️ ▶️ John support HDMI 2.0 features. is a ridiculous standard. Like it just lets people put the label on. You have to, that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John you go to these review sites and they have a giant grid of like, what features does it actually support? ALM, VRR,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it’s all these acronyms, soup or whatever. But HDMI 2.1 tells you almost nothing. All it tells

⏹️ ▶️ John you is that it’s plausible that it might support these things. Whereas if you see HDMI 2.0, you know it

⏹️ ▶️ John absolutely doesn’t. But you have to look at the individual specs to know which, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John alphabet soup thing that you’re actually interested in. It’s stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, well, we’ll see what happens.

More on Shared Photo Library

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Talk to me about iCloud shared photo library, which by the way, due to breaking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey news, I finally got the chance to have Erin update her phone to 16.1

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just like an hour and a half ago. And so as we were recording, I am moving 47,733 items to the shared photo library, which based my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey network bandwidth seems like is actually like a thing. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is, it almost appears as though things are, these photos are moving back and forth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You would think that it would just be like, Oh, take all these on the server side and glob them into the new shared photo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey library. But it does not appear to me that that’s what’s happening.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I don’t think it’s moving your data at all. Like I said last week, I think it is purely a metadata based operation. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think when you did the move of 40,000 or whatever, you should have seen within a few seconds, all 40,000 of disappear.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you are on like the personal library view, they should have all disappeared from the personal library view in your local

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. And then there’s a countdown again, scroll down to the bottom for the progress. But I think it’s just a purely metadata

⏹️ ▶️ John move. I don’t think it’s moving any of the data at all, but I don’t know. on Apple Photos can come and tell us.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think anybody who works on Apple Photos would actually like be on speaking

⏹️ ▶️ John terms with us? That is a plausible thing that could happen. Unrelated to that, here’s some news about

⏹️ ▶️ John Photo Shared Library. Mikhail Gok asked, or told us that

⏹️ ▶️ John in the camera settings on iOS, there’s a toggle to send photos you take directly

⏹️ ▶️ John to the shared library. I’d asked about that last week. What if I just want everything I take, every photo I take with my phone to go right into the shared library?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want it to suggest to me when it thinks they should go there. I don’t want to move them manually. There is an option

⏹️ ▶️ John for that. I think during the onboarding process on the phone, it asks you that and says, hey, do you want me to do this? But

⏹️ ▶️ John I onboarded on the Mac, and so that’s not my phone. And so either I missed that option or I didn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John ask or whatever. But if you want every single, you know, photo you take on your phone to go directly

⏹️ ▶️ John into the shared library, you can turn that on. It’s in the camera settings on your iPhone. As for my unsaved

⏹️ ▶️ John photos warning, I’m not sure if Casey saw that when he was trying to move his 40,000 photos. But if you select a bunch of photos and

⏹️ ▶️ John try to move them to the shared library, you might see something that says, hey, you’ve got unsaved photos, do you wanna save them?

⏹️ ▶️ John And I wondered what the heck that was about. Lots of people gave me the answer that those are the shared with you photos. If

⏹️ ▶️ John you have that feature on, when someone like sends you a photo in messages, like an iMessage,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a feature that will surface that photo in your photos application. And it’ll say like, oh, this

⏹️ ▶️ John was from Casey when you were having a message thread. And it shows his name and like a little message icon or

⏹️ ▶️ John something or whatever. Those are the ones that haven’t saved. And what it means by saved is we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John showing you this photo because it’s in one of your message threads, we’re showing it to you in the photo grid view or in the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John version of Photos app, but you haven’t actually saved this photo to your photo library.

⏹️ ▶️ John And by saved, because I did select all or select the whole bunch, some of the things I selected were

⏹️ ▶️ John shared with you photos. So you have two choices. You could either save them, which means basically copy them out

⏹️ ▶️ John of the message thread and put them into your photo library where they will live forever. Or you can go to the, on the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, I think on the iOS one too, There’s like a filters menu option in the upper right. You can tell

⏹️ ▶️ John it to filter out, like don’t show me the shared with you photos. And then it just won’t show them. And then when you select,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just lost them. You don’t have to worry about that. So that’s that feature. That’s that mystery solved.

⏹️ ▶️ John Deduping. So deduping is still definitely a frustrating situation. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not even, you know, I’m not even talking about deduping like with two people’s accounts. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John I said last week, my wife and my account on the same Mac. I’m talking about deduping where two people contribute same photo to the

⏹️ ▶️ John shared library or there’s a photo in the shared library and also in a personal library and it’s a tricky situation.

⏹️ ▶️ John So just to give an example, the example that I tested, if I and my wife both contribute

⏹️ ▶️ John the exact same photo to the shared photo library, which might happen if we both got like airdropped the voter from someone else,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s literally the same photo down to the bite, no differences whatsoever. There’ll be two copies

⏹️ ▶️ John in there. And D duping is a little bit tricky because if we do that, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John to do it right, what would have to do is keep track of the fact that two different

⏹️ ▶️ John people contribute this photo, because and I’m noticing this when I’m hopping back and forth between accounts. If you’re in

⏹️ ▶️ John the shared library, you can take one of the photos and say move this back to my library. But if you’re not the

⏹️ ▶️ John one who contributed to the share library, you can’t like it doesn’t say move it back because you didn’t contribute it. So if two

⏹️ ▶️ John people contributed, the system has to remember, hey, both people contribute to this. And so if you move it back,

⏹️ ▶️ John a it has to like understand that you’re allowed to move it back because you were or one of the two contributors, or one of the three contributors, or one

⏹️ ▶️ John of the four, or four people contributed, or whatever, they have to understand that you’re allowed to do that. And B, it should probably

⏹️ ▶️ John leave it there for other people to get back, because they contributed it, but they didn’t pull it back. So you can pull like

⏹️ ▶️ John your copy back. Like it’s got a lot of weird edge cases. It’s not as simple as just, oh, just delete

⏹️ ▶️ John one of them. Because if you do that, then you’re left with like the one contributed by one person, but now the other person can’t pull it back even

⏹️ ▶️ John though they think they contributed it. So it is complicated and confusing, but I do hope it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John on the list. I don’t think I put it in a feedback for that, but I probably will at some point, but I hope this is already on the roadmap somewhere because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’d be a useful feature. It’s surprisingly easy to get dupes. And the reason it’s surprisingly easy to get dupes, at least for

⏹️ ▶️ John me, is we’ve had just like years and years, decades, at least a single decade, a long time,

⏹️ ▶️ John where we’ve had separate libraries. And inevitably there are photos that end up in both the libraries

⏹️ ▶️ John because even when one is the real library, sometimes I wanna have like the good pictures on my phone

⏹️ ▶️ John so I can make wallpapers, so I can post them to Instagram. and there are just so many photos that are both on my

⏹️ ▶️ John phone and also in the quote unquote real library and trying to manually sort that out

⏹️ ▶️ John is fraught. I’d rather just dump everything into the Shadows library and say, now de-dupe

⏹️ ▶️ John and have it handle that, but it doesn’t do that yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey And

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t have a way for you to ask it to do, but just does it on its own sweet time, which is not great. And finally, people

⏹️ ▶️ John and faces. So here’s how, as far as I can tell, the people and faces stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John the people and like the names of the people and all the face data doesn’t seem like it

⏹️ ▶️ John goes with the photo. So if I contribute a photo and I have all the faces

⏹️ ▶️ John named, you know, and like identified all the people in them, that stays, like I don’t lose that by pushing into the shared

⏹️ ▶️ John library. It’s exactly there because I’m contributing the photo. But other people who see that photo, they have to

⏹️ ▶️ John then run face recognition according to their face database and they have, you know, assigning their names or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so in theory, if you want to be weird or funny, you could have totally different names and totally different

⏹️ ▶️ John face assignments for multiple people looking at the same photo in the shared library. But the face data and the name data

⏹️ ▶️ John is not shared. It is private to each contributor. There’s a privacy angle

⏹️ ▶️ John to that. Or you might not want to know that, you know, Uncle Bill is named Poopyface in your

⏹️ ▶️ John library or something. But, you know, for families, it would actually be kind of convenient

⏹️ ▶️ John if the people data could be shared. Kind of like the keywords are shared, because that’s another, you know, privacy thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John When you, like I said last, or a couple weeks ago, when you assign a keyword to a photo and you share it,

⏹️ ▶️ John other people see that keyword. So I hope your keywords aren’t like, you know, something you don’t want other people to see. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just text, you know, it’s not a big deal in terms of the sharing, but it saves a lot of time and energy because I want the keywords

⏹️ ▶️ John to be saved, to be shared rather, so that I can take advantage of the years I have spent keyword tagging

⏹️ ▶️ John photos.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, as you were talking and I was looking at the show notes and I noticed that I, or I realized

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hadn’t looked at the shared library settings within camera, within settings on my phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s worth noting there’s some clever stuff here. So, you know, there’s a kind of global, do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you want to share photos directly from your camera? Yes, no. Then below that, you have two choices, share automatically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or share manually. And if I understand this right, basically, if your phone sees, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my phone in my case, sees Aaron’s phone nearby, it will automatically, if I so choose,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey share photos that I take while we’re near each other to the shared library.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then additionally, which I think they had talked about on a keynote somewhere, but additionally, there’s share when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at home, yes, no. And so whenever I’m at home, irrespective of whether Aaron is physically near me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the time or not, it can optionally share directly to the shared photo library, which I think is very slick. And we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see whether or not any of this actually works. But I’m very impressed that these options are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey available. It seems reasonably well thought out. The one thing that I do think I screwed up, though, is I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to capture photos of the four of us and basically anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey since Aaron and I met. And I think what I accidentally did was an and not an or.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like I, I, it seemed to me like I was doing an or operation. Like take anything that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is, you know, from before or from the time we met and after and, and, or I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to choose my words carefully here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Did you mean like during the onboarding when you were, Correct. Sorry. You

⏹️ ▶️ John had to say like, Hey, what photos do you want me to send over? Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Exactly right. I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John understand any of those options, which is why I said, I’ll do this myself later, whatever that option was.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, see, that’s why I should have learned from your, why I was going to say mistakes, but not mistakes. I should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have learned from you. And so I think what I did was I said, you know, start from whenever we met

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and take the four of us. And it appears to me that what it heard when I said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is take pictures of the four of us rather than just glob everything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from, you know, 2005 onward. It’s actually just, I think it’s just taking photos

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it recognizes as either me, Aaron, Declan, or Michaela, which I’m gonna have to go back and add a whole bunch more,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but yeah, what are you gonna do? Also, I mean, it’s still churning, so maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m basing this off

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of what’s in progress, and once it all settles down, maybe it’ll be what I expect.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re just reminding me of how much the search and photos annoys me, either because I can’t figure it out, in which case someone,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, from the Apple Photos team, please tell me how to do this, because I want to do it. But like, Photos has had for many

⏹️ ▶️ John years now a search box in the upper right, And you can type stuff in there like you can on your phone. Like you can type the word dog and

⏹️ ▶️ John it will find all the pictures of dogs, right? That it has, it understands a whole bunch of things. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John very useful. And now it also does text. So if you take a picture of a street sign, it’ll do OCR on the text. You can type that text, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Powerful search field up there, right? Also, there is a thing called smart folders that are in the sidebar.

⏹️ ▶️ John And smart folders have never heard of that search field in the upper right. Because everything that search field can do, smart folders

⏹️ ▶️ John like I have no idea what that is, don’t even talk to me about it. So if I wanted to do something like, Show me photos

⏹️ ▶️ John of a dog that were taken between these years. The smart folder is like, ha ha ha, I don’t know what a photo

⏹️ ▶️ John of a dog is. What are you even talking about? Unless you keyword tagged it with dog, I have no idea about that AI thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t even, and it doesn’t know about face recognition either. The smart folder is like, show me photos of these five people,

⏹️ ▶️ John but also like it’s just, it’s so, they’re so divorced from each other based on like the year and

⏹️ ▶️ John team that they were created. And I’m like, look, if you can do these searches, the smart folder should support everything that the search field can support and

⏹️ ▶️ John vice versa, but they don’t. There’s so many smart folders that I wanted to create

⏹️ ▶️ John to help me deal with the migration and stuff that just aren’t possible to do. Or maybe they are, please tell me everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John and let me know how to do this.

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Lifestreams & Rewind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we had some news that happened this week and it’s one of those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey times when like the entire internet points to you and says, did you see this? Did you see this?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like there was a, um, I probably won’t be able to find it for the show notes, but there was like a satirical thing where an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey FFMPEG fan talks about FFMPEG. It was not directly about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John me as far as I’m aware, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the entire internet sent it to me. Um, if I remember it and if If I can dig it up, I’ll put it in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But in this case, I was not the star, it was John. And you were the star because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey coming out of, apparently out of the woodwork is And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is by another name, a live stream. And this is something I’ve heard you talk about for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey years. So John, remind me what a live stream is and tell me what’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not to be confused with Life Day. Yeah, I had to dig up where I had talked about this. Most recently, back

⏹️ ▶️ John in November of 2021, I talked about it with Merlin on Rectifs, Reconcilable Differences, I keep abbreviating,

⏹️ ▶️ John people don’t know what that is, another podcast I do. I’ll put a link in the show notes if you, a timestamp link to 53 minutes and 22 seconds

⏹️ ▶️ John if you wanna hear my most recent conversation about it. But way before that, back in May of 2014,

⏹️ ▶️ John I talked about it on this very show, on ATP episode 66, at one hour and 52 seconds into

⏹️ ▶️ John the show. And it’s not a thing that I made up, as I said in both of the times I talked about it, it’s a thing I saw

⏹️ ▶️ John on TV when I was a kid, possibly a teenager, but in my advanced age, it seems like when I was a kid.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it was like some research thing that some academic had done and written papers about or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John In fact, I was digging some more stuff about this. Someone wrote a paper about implementing this on the Newton PDA back in the day.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if it was ever implemented. A lot of the papers had broken links. But anyway, as I think I described in both

⏹️ ▶️ John times I talked about this, it was back early enough where people were still thinking about new

⏹️ ▶️ John ways to look at data on computers. We’re all kind of familiar with the files and folder metaphor of sort of arranging

⏹️ ▶️ John things in a hierarchy and the desktop metaphor and like, you know, filing things away

⏹️ ▶️ John like that. We’re also kind of aware these days of the search paradigm where

⏹️ ▶️ John things, you know, files and objects have attributes and you can search based on those attributes unless you’re Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Photos, in which case you can only search on some of them in the sidebar. But anyway, that’s a different way to view your text, view your

⏹️ ▶️ John content. You could use search and then the search doesn’t care where the thing is located, just cares that they’re all pictures

⏹️ ▶️ John of dogs or whatever. And another way you can think about slicing and dicing data

⏹️ ▶️ John is purely based on time. We don’t care if it has a picture of a dog in it. We don’t care where it is in the file system.

⏹️ ▶️ John All we care is when something happened to it. And so you can imagine every single thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that you interact with on a computer being a time-ordered sequence. I looked

⏹️ ▶️ John at this thing, I click this thing, I made this thing, I wrote this text, I did this, and it’s just a long

⏹️ ▶️ John stream of things. You can visualize, I think I even visualized it on the thing I was watching on PBS is just like a, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, kind of like a roller coaster ride where you’re flying through a whole bunch of things and the past is way out there and the future is in

⏹️ ▶️ John the other direction. And they called it life streams or life streaming. And it was bigger than that. It was like, what

⏹️ ▶️ John if I wear a camera on my head and record myself 24 hours a day or whatever, but just in the realm of computers,

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine if you could see everything that you’ve interacted with on the computer

⏹️ ▶️ John ordered by time. And the reason I brought that up probably on both podcasts is because I always find it frustrating

⏹️ ▶️ John when I know I saw something somewhere the other day, but I can’t remember where it was.

⏹️ ▶️ John Was it a tweet? Was it an email somebody sent me? Did someone send me a message? Was it in Slack?

⏹️ ▶️ John Was it a phone call? Was it an in-person meeting? I know this doesn’t help with that, but that is a thing that, again,

⏹️ ▶️ John at my advanced age, very often, the lines blur between things that happen on the computer and things

⏹️ ▶️ John that happen in real life. And I hate it when I can’t, I hate that feeling where it’s like, I know

⏹️ ▶️ John I saw this, I just saw it. and like I go through my history in my browsers and I’m searching the file system and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to search Slack and hoping that like the free Slack, you know, hasn’t scrolled off the end because it doesn’t keep

⏹️ ▶️ John everything. I hate when I can’t find it. And I always think if I had live streams, this wouldn’t be a problem

⏹️ ▶️ John because the whole point of live streams is just, it notes everything you do and orders it by time. And if I can remember it

⏹️ ▶️ John happened sometime yesterday, then I can find it because that’s the only thing I care about. I don’t care about,

⏹️ ▶️ John did it happen in Slack? Did it happen in messages? Was it an email? I don’t care about that. and I don’t certainly don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John about where it is in the file system, where the file was saved, if it is a file or whatever, I just wanna find the data.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this startup at has basically

⏹️ ▶️ John implemented live streams. When I talked about it on rectifs back in November, 2021, I talked about

⏹️ ▶️ John the pitfalls of potentially implementing this. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John has implemented, so now we have a concrete implementation to look at. And what it does is you run it on your Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a Mac application, so cool for people making innovative new Mac applications.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it tries to implement live streams. And so if you’re like, what was that thing that I, it was something

⏹️ ▶️ John about the TPS report. I think they use TPS report in their demo video.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey They did. TPS

⏹️ ▶️ John reports, yesterday, where was that? And you don’t remember, and it will find it in the example they give is

⏹️ ▶️ John like, what if it was just something that was on somebody else’s screen in a Zoom call, right? They did

⏹️ ▶️ John a screen sharing on a Zoom call and that’s where it was. You’re never gonna find that. Cause it’s not even on your disk. It’s not in your

⏹️ ▶️ John browser history. There’s no history in Zoom where you could find text that was on a

⏹️ ▶️ John document that was being shared over Zoom, someone was doing screen sharing, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ John will find it. And how does it do this, you may ask? Exactly the way you’re thinking. It

⏹️ ▶️ John records everything that happens on your screen and that’s where people start to get scared. But like, honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the only way to do it with current technology is, what if we just record everything

⏹️ ▶️ John that happens on your screen, every single window, OCR all of it, do text to speech from any

⏹️ ▶️ John audio that happens and just record it all, because that’s the only way we’re gonna find anything. So it doesn’t really care

⏹️ ▶️ John what it is, it doesn’t need to integrate with your browser, it doesn’t need to do any of that stuff, it’s just basically gonna record everything. And

⏹️ ▶️ John if you are technically minded, you’re thinking many things. You’re thinking about the privacy implications and you’re thinking about the

⏹️ ▶️ John technical implications. But before we get into all that, and there’s a lot to get into, I just wanna- I’m thinking about

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the legal implications.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like

⏹️ ▶️ John two-party consent for recording. I just wanna say that, as I was discussing on rectifs,

⏹️ ▶️ John that I would love this feature, but anyone who actually implements it, it becomes immediately terrifying

⏹️ ▶️ John and probably also not technically possible. And I think what I said back on the rectif, so that I haven’t listened back to the whole thing, is like the only

⏹️ ▶️ John company that I wouldn’t even remotely trust to implement this in some future where implementing it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John bring my system to its knees, it would be a platform like Apple that is privacy focused.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because anybody else who implements this, it is so

⏹️ ▶️ John scary that I would, how could I possibly have trust in them? And, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John as we’ll get to in a little bit, this is a venture funded company. And so I’m like making, you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, hmm, do I want a venture funded company being responsible

⏹️ ▶️ John for keeping all my data privacy as it records everything that happens on my screen? Probably not. But anyway, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the product. I think it actually is cool. I am certainly a fan of live streams. I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John technically cool, but it also scares the heck out of me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not sure I would trust even Apple with this for a number of reasons. I mean, number one, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think just the liability that you’re creating by recording everything that passes through

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your screen and or microphone or whatever else, if somebody had access to that, even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it’s just somebody who like, sat down on your computer when you walked away for a minute, it’s having access to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything that has shown on your screen. And granted, and this app says, they could do things like exclude your private,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Safari windows so when you’re looking at stuff, you shouldn’t be looking at in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco polite company.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or actually the Zoom window if your work doesn’t want you to record and stuff like that. Like they built the features you

⏹️ ▶️ John would expect they would built in. But it’s not like, getting back to the live streaming thing of

⏹️ ▶️ John like the guy who wears like a camera on his head and records his whole life. It’s the same idea. And this is a topic visited very

⏹️ ▶️ John often in science fiction. You know, obviously they’re doing it for like his academic, let’s try this thing. But just think about what it would be like

⏹️ ▶️ John if you recorded your entire life all day, like with your AR glasses, it just recorded everywhere you went.

⏹️ ▶️ John That is a tremendous, like you said, a tremendous liability. Nobody wants every moment of their

⏹️ ▶️ John life recorded and able to be recalled by somebody who’s not them. I don’t even want it to be recalled by someone who

⏹️ ▶️ John is me. Like, I don’t want to be able to go back and see every moment of my past. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John certainly don’t want any arbitrary person who gets access to my AR goggle recording

⏹️ ▶️ John to be able to jump back in time and look at it. That is fodder for dystopian sci-fi

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely. We’re just talking about what happens on a computer, but that’s plenty scary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough. Yeah, because your whole life is on your computer. Like, and the things you do, like, I mean, there’s so much, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much information there that, you know, could be used against you in some way. Whether it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, if you happen to flash a view of your bank account on a browser somewhere, or, you know, just sensitive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco emails you get, you know, just sensitive documents you have to deal with, you know, what you’re browsing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for, you know, legitimate reasons, like, there’s just so, there is so much there. you are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco creating a massive like honeypot reward for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one bad actor in any part of it to be able to access and do horrendous things with.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even like, again, I wouldn’t even trust Apple to do this and I trust Apple with a lot. I trust that even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though we will complain about them when it’s warranted,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do trust them a lot with a lot of data and integrity. That being said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as they push more into trying to be an ad company with, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco somewhat spotty morals in that department, I don’t know that we could even trust them with that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because, you know, I think what Apple’s argument would be is, well, we will keep it secure, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we won’t sell your data to other companies, which is what they call tracking. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple itself would probably at some point use that for advertising targeting purposes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, again, like, we’re in a different world now. Now that Apple is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only an ad company and a rapidly expanding ad company, but also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now that Apple is having some tough quarters with services growth, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna tighten the screws. They’re gonna keep going. You know, this past month or quarter, whatever, we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had all of a sudden price hikes for all the services. That’s not a coincidence. Look at their growth rates. Look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at their revenue rates. It’s slowing down. All of a sudden we have lots of ads launching around the App Store.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Again, not a coincidence. they’re gonna keep tightening the screws because what they call

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quote services are all things where they can fairly easily just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like increase the spigot a little bit. Just they can do things here and there that will degrade

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things for users or developers or both or whatever, but will give them a little bit more money in the short term.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is what companies do. Apple’s not immune to it. They’re gonna keep doing this. And so I can clearly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco imagine a future and I hope this never happens, But I think it’s extremely plausible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where if Apple had this feature of their platforms, this total recording everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feature, which frankly I don’t think they would ever do because I think it’s too problematic and they would know that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But if they were to ever launch such a thing, there is no question in my mind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they would find a way, once a bad quarter came around, they would find a way to twist some logic to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, okay, we’re gonna now start using that data to target ads to you. And only in our apps though. We’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be super privacy sensitive and only we can do this creepy thing to your data.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that’s what they would do. And so again, you look at even Apple, who we trust so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much, who has a pretty good track record in most of these areas, I think even they would be a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco small step away from taking advantage of that kind of thing in a creepy way. And that’s Apple. Imagine any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other company with access to that kind of data. And I mean, especially, I think a VC-funded

⏹️ ▶️ Marco company is especially scary about that because it is really hard to look at that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and not be tempted when times get tough. So when you’re not meeting your numbers, when you need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit more revenue to hit some goal or to avoid some problem, it’s really,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really hard to not tap that resource. And it’s a massive resource that could be used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in immensely creepy and terrible ways. Not to mention, even going beyond stuff like legal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems with it, which again, there are many legal problems with like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you are recording things in your computer without people’s consent, they’re on the other side of those things, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bit of a problem in a lot of places. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John not

⏹️ ▶️ John sure if the law has caught up with that, but certainly NDA law has caught up with that, right? If you’re under NDA,

⏹️ ▶️ John like you’re not supposed to record anything that happens in the meetings that you have at work or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John like if people use enterprise software to do their sort of tele-meetings or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John they explicitly disable recording if they don’t want you to be able to record it, if that’s their corporate policy. And of course, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you install a third-party app that also records on your computer using it for corporate stuff, you are certainly violating your employee agreement

⏹️ ▶️ John or some NDA or whatever, which is a more well-trodden area of the law than,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like the phone system, the law’s kind of caught up with that. So we have all the recording statutes that probably

⏹️ ▶️ John apply to recording someone saying audio, but recording like an image that goes across your screen

⏹️ ▶️ John because someone sent it to you in like a WhatsApp thing, it’s so technically esoteric that I do wonder

⏹️ ▶️ John if the law in various states would be able to, we’ll be able to grapple with that, or if it’s just something that

⏹️ ▶️ John hasn’t ever been tried because this technology is so new.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s funny also, one of the things that’s on the Rewind website

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is, you know, you can record your meetings, and at the bottom of this page it says, oh shoot, where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did it go? I lost it. It says something like, oh, how does this work? And then there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a help page about it. At the bottom of that, it says, make sure to read this article

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as well, colon, the importance of consent. And they talk a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit about it. And they say at the bottom of this article in bold, we believe all users of our

⏹️ ▶️ Casey products should proactively seek consent from everyone they record, even if they are not legally obligated to do so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And apparently, news to me, because I was looking at this earlier, there are only 11 American states

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are two-party. Shoot, I lost the list. But somewhere around here. I believe Massachusetts.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco California is a big one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, here it is. California, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Not New York, apparently.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, again, this is not the first thing that record that the record your screen screen record is exist and have existed

⏹️ ▶️ John forever. And like all the legal things are also caught by that. And in my time in corporate America

⏹️ ▶️ John in the latter years, we routinely recorded every meeting is basically like, oh, for people who couldn’t show

⏹️ ▶️ John up to the meeting, make sure we record it and it would get shoved into the cloud somewhere and some Microsoft thing and then other people will be able to

⏹️ ▶️ John view the meeting. So recording means is not, you know, a thing that really happens. What didn’t happen as often is someone

⏹️ ▶️ John locally recording using a third party piece of software that they install. Like it gets recorded and pushed to, you know, push to the

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft OneDrive to the Microsoft Teams thing or whatever that that is a feature that most people who work in corporations want,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they want to be able to control it. But so it’s not like this is letting the recording your screen gene out of the bottle, but

⏹️ ▶️ John the idea of it being pervasive, because to get the value of it kind of has to be pervasive. And maybe you just say, I

⏹️ ▶️ John would just run my home computer, not my work computer. But that also kind of cuts into things if the thing that was

⏹️ ▶️ John sent to you was like a message, a non-work related message sent to you and messages. You’re not going to see

⏹️ ▶️ John it if you go through your your live stream later at home. So here’s what the the CEO

⏹️ ▶️ John had to say about it in a little Twitter thread to sort of explain why his product is okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John Local and private by design we record anything you’ve seen said or heard and make it searchable for your privacy

⏹️ ▶️ John we still all of the recordings locally on your Mac only you have access to them. So as you would imagine if they’re trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to not be immediately ridiculously evil they do not take these recordings

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey of your

⏹️ ▶️ John local computer and throw it into the cloud it’s all just on your Mac it’s you know it’s all local right

⏹️ ▶️ John mind-boggling compression this gets at the technical feasibility how can I record everything that’s happening on my screen

⏹️ ▶️ John all day without filling my disk right since it’s storing all the recordings locally means compression is very important we can press

⏹️ ▶️ John raw data up to 3,750 times what an odd number without major

⏹️ ▶️ John loss of quality for example 10.5 gigabytes of raw recording data becomes 2.8 megabytes and then finally

⏹️ ▶️ John no cloud integration or IT required in order to enable you to search anything you’ve seen we use native macOS APIs

⏹️ ▶️ John with its optical character recognition to recognize and index all the words that appear on your screen So it’s all happening locally It’s all on your device

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re able to compress things So that they you know get down to size and in terms of the

⏹️ ▶️ John they also touted their VC funding Which is why everybody knows about it in terms of the business bottle. Here’s something bad to say I think

⏹️ ▶️ John this is on their website on the how much does rewind cost rewind is completely free for now not reassuring company

⏹️ ▶️ John No, don’t put an exclamation on that not read Anyway, we plan to offer a free product indefinitely, I’ll bet,

⏹️ ▶️ John and for users who get a ton of value we will charge them a monthly subscription, aka freemium. And then,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not getting better here, we aren’t yet sure what the price will be or what the features will be in the

⏹️ ▶️ John free product versus the paid product. We’ll make that decision based on feedback we get. One thing’s for sure, we will never

⏹️ ▶️ John sell your data or do advertising. Are you sure about that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, I would like to know what was their pitch to the VCs? Because I bet it contains

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much more detail than that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they didn’t get a huge amount of VC money. And the person who, the CEO also had previously,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think he was from, which got-

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love, hold on, just the ridiculousness of like $10 million not being a huge, and you’re right,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like in terms of, but it’s just, it’s ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know what

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, but like in the grand scheme of things, this is Andreessen Horowitz. It’s a big VC company, and he’s had

⏹️ ▶️ John a successful company that presumably he did well for the VCs when they invested in that company, so that’s why he invested in his

⏹️ ▶️ John new company. So here’s the thing about this feature. If you had gone back to my childhood and found

⏹️ ▶️ John some technically minded adults and said that a company’s gonna make a product that keeps track of our location

⏹️ ▶️ John all day, every day, and makes that information accessible to other people potentially,

⏹️ ▶️ John they would say, what, someone’s gonna spy on me and know where I am all the time? My device is gonna track my location on the

⏹️ ▶️ John earth 24 hours a day? This is a dystopian nightmare. And we all have phones and we don’t care about that. It’s like, well, it’s just location

⏹️ ▶️ John data and we trust Apple not to share with anybody. And yeah, there was that thing where Google accidentally, we let people get at

⏹️ ▶️ John every location and see where you go during the day. Like there is kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John an acclimation to technology tracking things that were previously

⏹️ ▶️ John seemed like the surveillance state. So I mean, how many people use their phones and turn location off so it’s never

⏹️ ▶️ John tracked? None of us do that because there’s just so much utility for a device that knows where we are. Whether it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John find my friends to find out where people in your family are or just being able to set a reminder so it knows when you get back

⏹️ ▶️ John home or maps features or keeping track of your runs or how many steps

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve taken and where you walked. We have pretty much all accepted and found a vendor

⏹️ ▶️ John that we can trust well enough that we’re okay essentially carrying a tracker around. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ John carrying a tracker around with us all day. It’s always keeping track of where we are and it’s recording it. And we’re like, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ve worked out the kinks in that. People are mostly okay with it. But if you had dumped in somebody

⏹️ ▶️ John from the 70s and described that, they’d be like, no, I don’t want this tracker. Yes, it’s an amazing piece

⏹️ ▶️ John of technology, but I don’t want it to be tracked. Oh, you say it’s only on the device or it’s shared in this cloud you describe

⏹️ ▶️ John it You say it’s safe and the can’t like it’s you have to do so much Reassurance and explaining of the cultural

⏹️ ▶️ John context for that to be okay Part of the reason that happened is because we passed the technical threshold

⏹️ ▶️ John where doing that is not prohibitive I’m not entirely sure that we have passed the threshold.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re doing Full screen recording or per window recording and OCR

⏹️ ▶️ John is not Oppressive because especially if you’re on a laptop, it’s gonna hurt your battery Like there’s a page

⏹️ ▶️ John on this site that says look we’re using the amazing powers of the m1 Soc to do all this

⏹️ ▶️ John compression and I bet they are but every one of those little things takes power And that

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, especially on battery-powered devices like laptops, but even on like a desktop you’re burning CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John cycles Doing this thing that presumably will have value later, but you’re burning it all the time

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I mean again to get value out of it You can’t just like run it for one hour a day. You have

⏹️ ▶️ John to run it all the time So I do feel like the utility of this if

⏹️ ▶️ John this could exist immediately and magically work and Like be seamless

⏹️ ▶️ John and not impact your life and not impact battery life. I Think the utility of it actually

⏹️ ▶️ John is tremendous but like getting over the hump of

⏹️ ▶️ John From where we are now where it’s not and people are scared of it to the other side where

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just as scary in in the wrong hands, but people are now used to the utility of it,

⏹️ ▶️ John is kind of inevitable as everything, I don’t know if this is going to happen, but I’ve always talked

⏹️ ▶️ John about this before, like technology catching up with our perceptions, right? So audio, we’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John the technology to make audio good enough for our human ears. Like we can do it. Like even if you’re a crazy audiophile

⏹️ ▶️ John person who wants 192 kilohertz, whatever, 48 bit, like we can do that. It’s no problem. Audio

⏹️ ▶️ John does not need to get better for humans until and unless we evolve better hearing, and that’s going to take take a long time, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John We haven’t caught up with video because video still is pixelated and it’s not 3D like our eyes see and

⏹️ ▶️ John blah, blah, blah. But if Moore’s law continues long enough, and eventually Moore’s law does

⏹️ ▶️ John stop because you can’t make things smaller forever, see quantum physics, right? If Moore’s law continues long

⏹️ ▶️ John enough that we max out on audio, vision, smell,

⏹️ ▶️ John touch, like all our senses basically, and we still have some more

⏹️ ▶️ John like doublings of transistor density to go, we’re going to get live streams whether we like it or not, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll basically be free. And to not do it would seem like wasteful. Right. And

⏹️ ▶️ John hopefully we will have the security things worked out. Then hopefully we all didn’t die in the water wars. Like there are many caveats to

⏹️ ▶️ John what I’m describing here in this particular timescale argument. But the utility of this

⏹️ ▶️ John is tremendous, because if I said, look, we’re not going to do any privacy things, but now a genie is granted you

⏹️ ▶️ John a wish and you can go back to any moment and find anything. and where was that

⏹️ ▶️ John thing? Like you have that magical ability, it’s not technology, it’s literally magic. People would take that in a second. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a superpower. It’s this kind of superpowers that computers give us. Things that we can’t do easily

⏹️ ▶️ John as human, like remembering things or erasing things perfectly or whatever, like computers can do. They

⏹️ ▶️ John give us the power to do that. This would be a superpower that computers could give us

⏹️ ▶️ John if it could be harnessed in a way that we find acceptable and doesn’t totally destroy our lives. Is 2022

⏹️ ▶️ John the time and the place for that to happen on Mac OS from a VC funded company?

⏹️ ▶️ John Probably not, but I remain fascinated by the idea

⏹️ ▶️ John and I think the utility of the idea is unavoidable.

⏹️ ▶️ John Eventually, if we have excess computing capacity, somebody’s gonna do it and some generation of people are gonna grow up

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re gonna think of it the way we think about our phones GPS tracking or the way we think about Google searches. Just as

⏹️ ▶️ John part of life that it would be barbaric to live without because what the heck is the point of computers if not to do this thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was interesting watching the intro video as well, which is literally a minute, I think to the second

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and, uh, the, the CEO, Dan Sirocco, I probably pronounced that wrong, but anyways, he said that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he went deaf or, or, you know, lost a lot of hearing in his thirties and then was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to get it back by way of a hearing aid, and then he thought to himself, allegedly, you know, well, what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else could we apply this principle to? Like, how else can we like supercharge a human being? And, and he

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eventually landed on, well, what if you had perfect memory? and that’s kind of what this Rewind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing is trying to do. I don’t know, I have very mixed feelings about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I like the fact that somebody is doing something innovative on macOS because that seems to be happening so rarely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey these days. It is funny, like you had said, John, you know, unleashes Apple Silicon.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Rewind utilizes virtually every part of Apple’s Silicon system on a chip. Running

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Rewind doesn’t tax system resources like CPU and memory while recording, allegedly. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John uses

⏹️ ▶️ John every part of the SoC, but doesn’t tax CPU. You know, CPU is part of the SoC.

⏹️ ▶️ John And either way, when you’re using parts that don’t count as a CPU, I’m not using the CPU, I’m using the H265 encoder.

⏹️ ▶️ John That still uses electricity. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it uses

⏹️ ▶️ John less than doing it on the CPU, but there’s no avoiding, there is technical overhead

⏹️ ▶️ John for doing this. Technical overhead for the compression, there’s technical overhead for doing the IO for the storage, and there’s overhead

⏹️ ▶️ John of actually doing the screen recording, right? It’s not huge overhead, And I think our machines can mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John handle it, but it’s going to impact your battery life some amount. I don’t think they throw out any figures of like,

⏹️ ▶️ John 1% worse battery life or 4%, we don’t know what it is, but it’s not zero.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but I don’t know. As someone who genuinely has a pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey crummy memory, I find this very fascinating. It is not often that I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to myself, oh, where did I see that thing? But it definitely happens. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a situation where I felt like I could trust whatever vendor is providing this service.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would probably be interested in it, but I echo what both of you, particularly Marco was saying about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the privacy implications about like the consent implications. Like, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess every time I speak to anyone on my computer, I can ask them if I have their consent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to record them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Or you could turn

⏹️ ▶️ John it off, like it was a big switch in the menu bar. You know, like if, you know, again, it cuts into the value if you turn it off, but it’s the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that you could do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But nevertheless, like I think this is a very fascinating idea and the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this group of people seems to claim that they can realize this idea, that’s super

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool. Now, I’m skeptical that that’s reality, but I dig the demo,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if nothing else. Now, maybe it’s all smoke and mirrors, but it looks really slick. So, I don’t know. I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey definitely be interested in this. I put my name or my email in the list just because I’d like to toy with it for a minute

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and see what it does. But a lot of the incentives that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see, namely the fact that it’s VC funded and they don’t really seem to know how they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make money. That does not align well with the incentives I want them to have, which is privacy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey among, you know, beyond anything else. You know, efficiency is a second tier, you know, right behind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey privacy. I don’t know. I just, I’m, I’m very skeptical. Quick aside, by the way, I just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey realized a few minutes ago where A16Z came from, did you know this? I think I figured

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it out. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John had, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think everybody knows, but you,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yeah, I, everyone, but newbie. Okay. So

⏹️ ▶️ John did you know that the Beatles is a music pun?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I did actually know that. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I had no idea it was all the, it was 16 characters between the A and the C. Anyways. Um, I don’t know. Would you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use, let me start with Marco. Would you use this both, both rewind specifically and a fantasy,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s call it Apple, and yes, I agree with all you were saying about Apple and services, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would you use an Apple provided version of rewind? Would you use the rewind provided version of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rewind? Let me start with Marco and then John, I’d like to hear your two cents.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just, I don’t see this ever being a thing that is worth the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco risk. You know, it’s almost like, imagine if nuclear power was far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco less safe than it really is. And so, like, you know, imagine, so it’d be like, yeah, like, there’s value

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in generating this power, but, you know, every couple of years, it’s gonna have a giant meltdown. It’s like, well, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s not worth it. And I know, in reality, this is a bad metaphor, because it’s way safer. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I think, you look at this product and like, first of all, even if we ignore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the VC part of it, just conceptually a product like this, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the very first thing it’s gonna have to do is add multi-device sync, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the very first feature request people are gonna have, because they’re gonna go, oh, I was doing this thing, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I forget whether it was on my desktop or my laptop or my phone or my tablet,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they’re gonna have, and I guess you can’t really do any of this on iOS, but who knows how they would get around

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. But anyway, so like you can start to see, all right, the very first thing people are gonna want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is something that’s gonna require them to have this data synced somehow between devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and therefore probably stored on some kind of server, maybe encrypted, you know. So there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already like a lot of red flags even there. But again, even if you just stick with what they’ve announced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you assume they will never need money, and so it’s, you know, all that’s off the table, all those concerns are off the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco table. And again, even, heck, even assume not only Apple did it, but like, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, Apple of 15 years ago did it before they really got into the ad business.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even with all those assumptions, I think this is creating a massive liability

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the liability is greater than the value that it creates.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I cannot see this going well long-term for the people who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use it. John?

⏹️ ▶️ John I also signed up for the thing. I’ll definitely try it out of technical curiosity. When I talked about the way Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John might implement this, because they’re the platform owner, they have more invasive access to apps running on the system and also

⏹️ ▶️ John they can do a thing that third parties can’t, which is they can vend APIs that third parties can then adopt

⏹️ ▶️ John to sort of opt into this. So it can be both more efficient and more privacy preserving and with sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of like an impartial referee in the middle being Apple, the platform owner, kind of like how does location

⏹️ ▶️ John services work? Like it’s an Apple vended API that they control and Apple is able to control the privacy of it

⏹️ ▶️ John to some degree through both the App Store and the way the APIs work. And same thing with sandboxing and a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of things like that. That’s why I envisioned Apple trying to, being able to pull this off in

⏹️ ▶️ John a more secure way. I still think the technical overhead of it is probably not worth the trade-off, but

⏹️ ▶️ John like I was saying before, with the sort of long-term thinking about this and how we think about GPS,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, there are tons of technologies that have terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John privacy implications that we don’t like as tech nerds who are sensitive to this,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the world disagrees. Like Facebook, for example, right? Or, you know, so many things having to do with the web.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or even like, you know, like workplace man-of-the-middle security products.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like just, you know, there’s, I mean, the workplace ones, I think, are kind of more justifiable, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, at least you know what you’re getting into there, and it’s your employer, and you can separate your personal, or whatever. But things like Facebook,

⏹️ ▶️ John where like, oh, just give them access to your whole life, and they will sell ads against it. And people

⏹️ ▶️ John have different thresholds for how much they care about this. And it seems like there are a lot of things

⏹️ ▶️ John that may be terrible for privacy, but also clear pretty much everybody’s threshold.

⏹️ ▶️ John And a product like this is probably only one generation away, setting aside the technical hurdles,

⏹️ ▶️ John from clearing enough people’s threshold that it doesn’t matter. Who cares if everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John who listens to ADP is horrified by it? the masses writ large have

⏹️ ▶️ John different, make different trade-offs. They have different weights and different values to these different things. When they weigh

⏹️ ▶️ John X against Y, they’re like, oh, Facebook, I see cool pictures of my friends and have fun. Total, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John privacy destroying thing? I don’t care about that. It’s weird, esoteric, I’m not a tech nerd, who cares, right? I’m not saying

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re right. Obviously, we disagree with that, but if you think like, I don’t see this ever catching on because I

⏹️ ▶️ John find it distasteful, I don’t think that’s, you know, my pessimistic view is

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not gonna save us. in terms of like

⏹️ ▶️ John me trying this for real, like, oh, will you run this on your computer all day? Right now I have to say

⏹️ ▶️ John no. Like I’m interested in seeing it run. I wanna see how it works, but my personal

⏹️ ▶️ John trade-off is as annoyed as I am when I can’t find something, I’m not annoyed enough to

⏹️ ▶️ John give this. But you know, someday I’m gonna get old and die, and then the next generation of people may not have the

⏹️ ▶️ John same foibles that I have. And the thing I was, I mentioned it, dystopian sci fi raising this issue a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John Someone in the chat room pointed out that there was an episode of Black Mirror that touches on this exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve seen every episode of Black Mirror and so I vaguely remembered it but they looked it up for me. It’s the entire history of you. It’s more about,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, if you have the ability to go back and look at any of your memories because your whole life is recorded, maybe you’ll obsessively go

⏹️ ▶️ John back and look at a memory that’s like, you know, that you’ll sort of like, spiral on that one memory and keep

⏹️ ▶️ John obsessing over it and looking at every corner or whatever. It’s kind of like a romance and someone’s like, you know, I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like someone was cheating on someone else and someone’s rewinding the memory looking

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be my personal hell like I’d be so tempted to like go back to like middle school and then I would just torture

⏹️ ▶️ Marco myself with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dumb crap I did and said and acted like oh god

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean like again black mirror is not a you know it’s it’s it’s not a happy

⏹️ ▶️ John show although San Junipero is the best episode of the entire series and it stands alone it is not a series

⏹️ ▶️ John of continuity so you like these these are independent for the most part independent episode so just watch San Junipero

⏹️ ▶️ John just find that one episode I I forget which season and which episode it’s for. It’s S-A-N space J-U-N-I-P-R-O.

⏹️ ▶️ John Put a link in the show notes. That episode is worth watching and is one of the best episodes of television ever. And it

⏹️ ▶️ John is totally standalone. You need no continuity, but every other episode of Black Mirror is so grim.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the entire history of you is also grim. And I’m sure there have been decades and decades

⏹️ ▶️ John of sci-fi novels that have examined what it would be like if every moment of our lives was recorded

⏹️ ▶️ John by us, by a totalitarian state that’s ruling over us, by aliens, like there are so many

⏹️ ▶️ John things in there that are scary to us, which is why companies like this are trying to be careful with how they introduce this technology.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I pretty much do feel that something like this is unavoidable as long as

⏹️ ▶️ John technology, you know, again, as long as Moore’s law continues long enough to get us into a place where this can

⏹️ ▶️ John be implemented in such a way that it like that the technical trade off and the battery life trade off or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John are rendered moot. And then it’s just a matter of who’s bothered by it. We’ll all be gone. So we don’t have to worry about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think the generation of people who there probably go as useful, I’ll do that. And they’ll care about privacy,

⏹️ ▶️ John they won’t want it to be super bad. And you know, if we’ve done well as a human race, we will have implemented

⏹️ ▶️ John laws that protect our privacy what much more than we have today, but I’m not feeling

⏹️ ▶️ John particularly optimistic about that at this moment in 2022. So check

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey again in 100 years.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I forgot to mention, and the how does it know how does the recording of meetings work?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey work in the Rewind website. Where is the data sent? Video data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is never sent off your Mac. The only data sent to a cloud service is the audio. We send it to a cloud transcription

⏹️ ▶️ Casey service in order to generate a transcript of what was said. This transcript is created so you can read it and search for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey specific words that were said. Yikes.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, no, no. I mean, they could do that on device too, but maybe that’s the one that kills the battery. You know, like maybe that eats up

⏹️ ▶️ John the CPU. Maybe the, the speech to text is not as good on Apple system. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John as Jason H says in the chat room. Every episode of Black Mirror ends up on a tech company’s roadmap.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh No this because that’s the thing like it’s it’s so easy to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see like oh well We’re gonna poke this hole in our security model that we previously established or that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or that you thought you had In order to provide this great value this now there’s one hole already. Oh, we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco got to send your audio off to a cloud thing Okay. Well, what’s next? You know there it’s so easy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make a couple little exceptions here well, we have to make this exception here to provide value

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to you and or us. But that becomes so easy to do. Once there’s any holes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, we’ll just add a little more here, just a little more. Oh, one more little exception here. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, the liability of this is so high, it is not worth even creating.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do think it’s a very interesting technical challenge with what appears to be a very interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey solution. But yeah, the more I think about it, and I was already getting the heebie-jeebies to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey begin with, but the more I think about it, the heebie-er my jeebies get, if you will. It is creepy.

the guy who owns twitter now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what else is creepy? Elon Musk officially owns Twitter now. Yay.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t even know what to say about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco People are acting like this is some kind of massive change and huge turn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the worse. Now, I think this is not good in absolute

⏹️ ▶️ Marco terms. However, in relative terms to the way Twitter has always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been led, I don’t know that it’s that much worse. like Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always been terribly led by horrible people like it’s never been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well moderated

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s been terribly led but has it been terribly led by people who have ideas

⏹️ ▶️ John that are as wrong as his are

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yes

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think so so here’s here’s I so with the reason we all

⏹️ ▶️ John think Twitter has been mismanaged is because the crew that was that was running Twitter for all these years has has just seemed

⏹️ ▶️ John unable to do anything. So it was like status quo was the safe move. Cause like, hey, we’ve got this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, it’s kicking off where it’s becoming super popular, it’s becoming part of the culture,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s blah, blah, blah. Let’s just not rock the boat. So they did nothing for Twitter for so long.

⏹️ ▶️ John They didn’t really figure out how to make a lot of money. They made money, but they didn’t make a lot of money. They could have made potentially

⏹️ ▶️ John more money. They didn’t add features, that’s for sure. They screwed third-party developers and then kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of like backed off a little bit on that. Like they didn’t do a great job, But it was mostly inaction. It was people

⏹️ ▶️ John who didn’t have any good ideas. The best idea they had was, it seemed to me that they understood

⏹️ ▶️ John the limits of their competence. They were like, we don’t know what to do, so let’s just not do anything. Which is not good leadership,

⏹️ ▶️ John to be clear. But it is different than, I know what we should do, we should do bad things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now Elon Musk, to be fair, says lots of crap. You have no idea what he’s going to do, it’s just kind of like it’s hard to talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John his owning Twitter until he actually does anything. You can’t really pay attention to what he says. He says a lot of things,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But a lot of the things he says make the world think,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t like those ideas, and if you were to do them, I would be sad. And that’s different than the people who were running

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter before. The people who were running Twitter before weren’t constantly saying, we want to let more Nazis back.

⏹️ ▶️ John They weren’t saying that. What they were saying is, we’re trying to get rid of them, but it’s hard, and we’re incompetent. Which

⏹️ ▶️ John is not, again, not good leadership. And the way they handled moderation

⏹️ ▶️ John was not good. But in general, the noises they made was,

⏹️ ▶️ John we agree that this should be better than it is, and we’re trying to make it better, and we’re failing at making it better,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? That’s very different than saying, actually, I think we should make it worse. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what a lot of people hear when they hear Elon Musk speak, because he has ideas that we say, no, that would make everything worse. And he’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, isn’t that great? And that’s why Elon Musk potentially is way, way worse than

⏹️ ▶️ John the incredibly incompetent people who were running Twitter before.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, I think people are forgetting some of the details of how crappily

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter has been run. And I’m not just talking about product direction. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, we can say things like, oh, they should have had to edit tweet or whatever. You know, that’s one area. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly, it’s hard to imagine anybody doing worse than what Twitter has been doing to date in that area. But,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I think it’s- Don’t forget Killing Vine and stuff like that. They just generally didn’t know what

⏹️ ▶️ John to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I think it’s important to remember, Twitter’s past leadership was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco extremely libertarian, extremely hands-off with moderation,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and let a whole bunch of hate and Nazis and horrible stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the platform indefinitely with poor controls and poor enforcement. But

⏹️ ▶️ John which direction did they go? They went in the direction of improving that incredibly slowly and

⏹️ ▶️ John not to the level that we find acceptable, but it didn’t go in the other direction. There was no sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of consensus with the leadership that in fact, you know how bad it is now? We should make it worse. Instead, they said, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ John we kind of grudgingly agreed that maybe we should make it better, and they acted too slowly and did a bad job. But directionally,

⏹️ ▶️ John they were not heading in the wrong direction. They were heading in the right direction from a place of terribleness too slow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they were so far from right before, and I don’t mean right as in conservative.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean right as in correct. Like they were so far from good before that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t even know if we can judge their micro moves as being even in the right direction. I mean.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did move in the right direction and did make important progress, especially within the last few

⏹️ ▶️ John years.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here’s the thing. Everyone points to like, oh look, Twitter finally kicked off Donald

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Trump. You know when Twitter kicked off Donald Trump, the second his term was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clearly done, like the second he had no more use to them, they kicked him off. They kept him

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the entire four years before that and didn’t enforce a goddamn thing against

⏹️ ▶️ Marco him. When he broke all the rules, he was himself directly abusive and breaking laws constantly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they did nothing against him because he was too convenient to have on the platform and it would have been too politically bad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for, in their mind, to kick him off. So they kept him on. Those stupid weasels kept him on the entire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco term and let him do all the damage he did. And they only kicked him off, like, after January

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 6th, when he was politically tanked and when his term was effectively over,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s when they kicked him off. They wrung every single bit of value out of having him on that platform, and then they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco look like heroes for kicking him off. So forgive me if you think, like, you know, if Elon flirted the idea of maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco letting him back on, that doesn’t make him any worse than the previous leadership. That makes them both turds, to be clear,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it makes the- it’s no- it’s no worse than them.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did kick him off, and he would be reversing that, so that’s worse. Like, obviously, not kicking him off for so long is terrible, and

⏹️ ▶️ John you could, you know, like, they waited too long, and they did a bad job or whatever, but reversing it is worse.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I mean, it’s comparing two bad things, to be clear. I don’t disagree with anything you said about what they did.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, but Twitter is more than just him. Twitter is how they handled all the moderation and stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ John there were people in Twitter trying to move things in a good direction. And

⏹️ ▶️ John part of what enabled people to try to move things in a good direction, Twitter was the ineffectiveness

⏹️ ▶️ John of leadership, that they were able to try to do good within the org, despite the fact that the leadership may have disagreed

⏹️ ▶️ John with the good they were trying to do. You know what I mean? Like that they weren’t paying attention, and while they weren’t paying

⏹️ ▶️ John attention, the head of the trust and safety department was able to try to do good things and hire some good people briefly, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, you can’t put this at the feet of anyone, because what has he done so far? Not much, right? He’s fired a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of people that people think he hasn’t fired,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so. Yeah, and that’s the thing. Like, I think the reason why I am slightly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco optimistic about this is that, is not necessarily because I hugely believe in him.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s more that I just had so little faith from the previous leadership. And so I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think he is, he’s showing signs in both directions. He’s showing signs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that seem like things are gonna be terrible and signs that show that maybe he’s gonna make some refreshing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes. I don’t know yet, we don’t know yet. He, you know, as John said a few minutes ago, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Elon floats a lot of ideas in public and he’s a total troll. And he does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of it for attention or for laughs. Sometimes he’s actually legitimately floating an idea

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he thinks actually might work. You know, he’s not good socially.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco He’s not a serious person. No, he’s not a serious person. He also, you know, he has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously pretty poor social skills, possibly for reasons

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I can’t diagnose because I’m not a professional, but there might be something there. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he clearly, you can’t take everything he says at face value,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you also can’t rule him out as like being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally incompetent because of all the crap he says some of it he actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does and it turns out pretty good not all of it but some of it and so I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco important when dealing with him I think it’s important to try to just not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feed into his his trolling with your attention and just focus on the results

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is he going to actually do good stuff. And the answer to that is, we don’t know yet. It’s too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco soon. But Twitter’s previous leadership was awful. And so I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the bar is low for him to be at least no worse than them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the thing is, the thing that’s attractive in any sort of situation where you want

⏹️ ▶️ John a strong man to come in and wipe the slate clean or whatever is you want decisive action. I’m so sick

⏹️ ▶️ John of these people doing nothing or saying they’re going to do something and never doing anything

⏹️ ▶️ John or saying and they’re moving in the right direction, but they move so slow, it doesn’t even matter. I want decisive action. And at

⏹️ ▶️ John a certain point, dissatisfaction with the status quo becomes so

⏹️ ▶️ John pervasive that decisive action is the most important thing. It doesn’t even matter what that action is. I just want decisive

⏹️ ▶️ John action. And very often, the biggest problem big corporations have is

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no one there who’s empowered to do something decisive. Because once you have

⏹️ ▶️ John a company that’s really, really big, especially if the people running it aren’t the people who founded it and don’t own it all,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just kind of want to not screw things up and you have your options vest and get your golden parachute.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like, there’s lots of motivations to not rock the boat, right? Because everyone involved, and so it becomes

⏹️ ▶️ John hard for big corporations to do anything. It becomes hard for leadership to do something. What Elon Musk has going for

⏹️ ▶️ John him and the things people find attractive is he doesn’t care. He doesn’t care because he’s already rich. He doesn’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John because he doesn’t care. Whatever it is, he has no problem with taking decisive action.

⏹️ ▶️ John And people find that attractive. But that is obviously the trap is, if it’s decisive

⏹️ ▶️ John action doing something terrible, that’s not good, right? And very often people will say,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, he did the terrible thing, but it was so decisive. And that is attractive to people. Like people

⏹️ ▶️ John can hold that in their head and say, I don’t agree with what he did, but at least he did it decisively

⏹️ ▶️ John and that makes me admire him, right? And the other thing is, well, you can’t argue with the results. The results were great. Very

⏹️ ▶️ John often people are put in a situation where, You know, not

⏹️ ▶️ John being as incompetent as the last person is seen as a victory, for example, right? Or just

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of like, knowing it like, the question is,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you had picked a random person off the street and put them in that same situation and said, consequences

⏹️ ▶️ John are meaningless to you, no matter what happens, don’t worry, you’ll be fine. Do whatever you think is

⏹️ ▶️ John right. Tons of people would be able to do what Elon Musk did. His, the thing that, that

⏹️ ▶️ John say, oh, I will attribute to this, he’s a genius. is like, he was just uninhibited. Was he uninhibited because that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the wise thing to do? I don’t know, but he was, he was uninhibited and he was able to do the thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John other people didn’t have the guts to even try and it worked out a few times and it also helped that he was born

⏹️ ▶️ John rich and blah, blah, blah, right? So I don’t like saying like, oh, he was involved

⏹️ ▶️ John with things that were a success, therefore he knows what he’s doing. I don’t see that at all because this is a totally different

⏹️ ▶️ John realm and we kind of see how he uses Twitter and if that’s what he likes

⏹️ ▶️ John about it, It’s potentially, I potentially don’t want to be on the Twitter that Elon Musk

⏹️ ▶️ John thinks he would enjoy, but I’m also not ready to celebrate his decisiveness until I see what he

⏹️ ▶️ John is decisive about. Because I do want to see the decisions, and who knows what they

⏹️ ▶️ John will be? Because it’s not as if he’s immune to feedback and learning,

⏹️ ▶️ John but he’ll try all sorts of things, and he’ll say all sorts of things, and hopefully he will try something, it’ll be a disaster, he’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John try something else. That’s what, you know, then the clock is ticking on his debt and all his other financial things or whatever, But that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s his MO. And that’s what people who have nothing to lose do. People do nothing. Who have nothing to lose can

⏹️ ▶️ John be refreshing, but kind of like rewind that. I sorry. Rewind that I having nothing to lose can also

⏹️ ▶️ John be terrifying. Right. It really depends. And that’s why in general, it’s not a great idea

⏹️ ▶️ John to have single unaccountable people with nothing to lose in control of things that are important. Just

⏹️ ▶️ John putting that out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there. Yeah, and that I totally agree with that. But but I think that we I think that when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when people judge whatever he’s gonna do with Twitter. And look, he might completely ruin it for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all we know, but I think it’s very important to just always contextualize like, well, how good was it before?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, in the case of things like moderation decisions, I don’t necessarily care

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if Twitter is filled with a bunch of people whose stuff I don’t wanna see if I’m not seeing it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? And I don’t really care if there’s people who try

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to abuse me or people I care about if I and they don’t see it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think it’s important to recognize, like, you know, when you have a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco social network as big as Twitter, it’s really hard to say, like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people of type or belief XYZ should not even be allowed to use this, because it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really blurring the line between, like, public infrastructure and a private company. So that’s a tough thing to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John manage.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the line is very blurry when one person owns it, and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John private company. Literally, it’s a private company.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like, where’s the blurred line?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but again, I mean, look, I make the arguments all the time about the App Store and about how the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco App Store has become such a required and massive part of so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much of everyday life and commerce that it does kind of cross the line and start to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need public style regulation, right? Social network, large social networks, the handful that there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are, are kind of like that in certain ways. Like, it’s tricky. You can’t just say,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, somebody who’s ultra conservative, who’s a huge dickwad, you can’t just say, like, oh, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t use this platform because of something stupid they said. But you can say,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no one needs to see what they say. And so it’s really, it’s so hard. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think you can say they can’t use the platform. That’s the whole point of having a private company. I totally disagree that Twitter is the public square.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like 200 million tech nerds and journalists. It’s a private company. Like, the public square is the public

⏹️ ▶️ John square. Like, the internet, you could say, is the public square. But anybody can start a social network. You can make your own Mastodon server.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there’s no, I will never be on board with that. It is ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but you know what? Look, look, everyone, look, this is not the first time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Twitter has made us all mad. And this is not the first time that lots of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us have, with great principled stands, say we’re leaving Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go join us somewhere. Here’s on this new other thing. Come join us here because Twitter has made us mad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And all those other things have pretty much gone nowhere because that’s not how social networks work.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I think it’s, you know, to everyone out there who’s like fleeing Twitter, look, do what you gotta do. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you feel strongly enough to do that, go for it. But don’t assume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you will never come back. Don’t assume that Twitter is guaranteed to be bad under this new ridiculous

⏹️ ▶️ Marco leader. Keep an open mind that maybe this will be fine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or at least no worse than it has been, and maybe leave the door open to come back, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re not going to get anyone else to go in mass to some new thing that’s the same thing, but just not Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like that, that’s not how anything works. And we’ve seen this time and time again. So, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would advise everyone, you know, before you go fleeing to your alternative and delete your Twitter account, like maybe don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco delete the account, maybe, maybe leave it open and don’t post saying I’m never coming back. You know, maybe just, you know, leave,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco leave the door open and don’t burn the bridge.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Also, I, to go back a little bit, is Elon that decisive? Like he seems

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be waffling about what to do with Twitter blue and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John whether or not… He came

⏹️ ▶️ John in and threw his weight around immediately, making like, add this feature in a week and do this and firing a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of people and telling a bunch of people to do a thing within a week is probably stupid, but definitely

⏹️ ▶️ John decisive. He didn’t have a year’s worth of meetings with people before deciding what to do. He’s just doing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey stuff. Is he doing things

⏹️ ▶️ John with forethought or things that are wise to do or things that will be useful? We’ll find out. But he did a bunch of stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but but then he’s getting in fights with Stephen King or not even getting in fights. He’s asking Stephen King Well, what do you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John think? It does

⏹️ ▶️ John stupid stuff all the time. Like that’s all he does all day is stupid stuff, right? And the things he did to quote unquote

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s my whole point with the decisively is firing a bunch of people and trying to make sure they don’t get severance like oh It’s decisive,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s bad you’re doing it’s like you you’re firing the wrong people and you’re doing it in a dickish way and

⏹️ ▶️ John Like but because it’s decisive like something is happening, right? So if you’re if your thing was like I hate

⏹️ ▶️ John stagnation of twitter I want to see something happen. The, you know, the monkey’s paw finger on the monkey’s paw curls and says,

⏹️ ▶️ John OK, something’s happening now. All right. And we’ll see. We’ll see how it turns out.

⏹️ ▶️ John But things are happening. I feel for the people who work there, because I’m sure lots of people who work there would

⏹️ ▶️ John like things to be better and they don’t have control over this. But, you know, I’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not the last time we’ll talk about this. And it is hard because all the things he’s doing so far, like rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John of what he’s doing internally that are leaking out. And it’s like, that’s not relevant to us as users of the thing. We have to see what

⏹️ ▶️ John happens to the Twitter that we use. And right now, there’s not much visible except for tons of things

⏹️ ▶️ John that he’s talking about doing but hasn’t actually done yet. So we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t know. I just, I’ve spent a unreasonable amount

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of time trying to understand random, randos on Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey randos in the chat room, people that I am acquainted with, friends,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey many of whom seem to worship the ground that Elon walks on?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because he’s decisive, and he’s rich, and might makes right, and he’s a strong man. This is not a new phenomenon. Thousands of years

⏹️ ▶️ John of human history have shown people love the strong man. People love

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the

⏹️ ▶️ John authoritarian. Fascism is popular for a reason. It is explicable. It should not

⏹️ ▶️ John be shocking. We would hope that people would learn the lesson of history, but they don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is attractive. It will always be attractive, probably, until and unless we evolve away from it or wipe ourselves

⏹️ ▶️ John out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. But he also, he has a lot of the same appeal that Trump did to a lot of people of like, you know, he,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he is like, he, despite, despite being like, you know, the richest person in the world, most of the time, um,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he is, he’s seen as like the everyman to a lot of people who feel like society

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is against them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the everyman. He came from nothing. The

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco son of a diamond, emerald miner in South Africa. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Just like Trump was self-made and a good businessman, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John All that, all that BS. Self-made multimillionaire. Right. a few hundred million from his

⏹️ ▶️ John father. But like, but yeah, but like the,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what appeals to people about him, there’s so much overlap with Trump and it’s many of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same people. And so I don’t agree with pretty much any of that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I understand why a certain personality type would think he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically God. And we have to deal with that. Like that’s the reality and we might as well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to understand it and deal with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it.

⏹️ ▶️ John The project of society is to try to, you know, make it so that those notions

⏹️ ▶️ John do not find root. And we are doing a bad job of educating

⏹️ ▶️ John society. So far, we’re not burning witches. We got away from that, but barely.

⏹️ ▶️ John Barely. And in any second, it threatens to come back.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s the thing, is that like, and I’ve had lengthy conversations with some of these Elon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey super fans. It’s so troubling because they seem to think a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of them, Oh, well just listen to this interview or, Oh, did you just know this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one tidbit? Or, Oh, what if I told you this? Like suddenly, Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re right. Elon is God. I am a mere peon in the world that he lives

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and owns. Like, and I don’t get like, I don’t understand.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I guess I should just let it go because it’s probably not making for good programming. But I just, I don’t understand how people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are so enamored with him. I just don’t. I don’t think that his cars are very good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey SpaceX, I don’t know enough about to have an opinion. Starlink seems like it’s clever, but not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really going to amount to a whole lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, part of it was what you’re explaining right now, that you associate all those things with a single person,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is a ridiculous thing, right? But it’s a thing that we all do. It’s a shortcut. It’s like Steve Jobs is Apple, Elon

⏹️ ▶️ John Musk is Tesla, and obviously, like, those are companies filled with people doing things. things.

⏹️ ▶️ John And because he owns them or funded them or make

⏹️ ▶️ John made important decisions that led them to their success, we attribute it all to that one person. And that type of

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is the same thing that leads you to, you know, to like, like, any, you

⏹️ ▶️ John assign accomplishments, accrual of wealth, power, good looks,

⏹️ ▶️ John height, like all these things, all these attributes to people can have, we connect them to virtue

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, you know, if you, if you have a limp, that is less virtuous than

⏹️ ▶️ John the person who walks without a limp, right? If you get a disease that is like, and we connect

⏹️ ▶️ John everything with virtue, right? Your hair color, your skin color, your height, how much money you have

⏹️ ▶️ John what family you belong to things that are in your control, things that aren’t in your control, we say, and therefore that is

⏹️ ▶️ John connected to virtue, what virtue, brains, wisdom, strength,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, leadership qualities, and that causes people, you know, why do they worship these people? Because all of those

⏹️ ▶️ John accomplishments are connected with merits that they believe in. And they say, of course, I believe in him. He is a

⏹️ ▶️ John hero. He is amazing. He is brilliant. He is making the world a better place because they

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, they these accomplishments which can be accomplished by terrible people, but say, but

⏹️ ▶️ John no, but because he did those things, because he has those things, because he is those things, therefore, he has

⏹️ ▶️ John these other virtues, right? And that is, it’s an unavoidable trap of human

⏹️ ▶️ John nature, a shortcut that we take. So anybody who acquires any of those things,

⏹️ ▶️ John people start to see all those other virtues in them. And of course, there’s the people who see virtue in the

⏹️ ▶️ John punishing of the people they don’t like, which gets into an even bigger problem with fascism and racism and so on and so forth. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s depressing, but it is well-trod territory. And it is difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John to combat, especially when other things are going poorly as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I just can’t wrap my mind around how people who I know that strike me as intelligent human beings

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Look at this professional internet troll. He seems like just a dirtbag human, and yet these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people worship the ground he walks on. I just don’t get it, but we should move on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s important, too, to separate the personality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco details of this person from his work. And I think, you know, there was a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco discussion on the talk show about this this week. It was actually a great episode with Federico Vitticci and John Gregory. Great episode, I recommend

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. There was a great discussion there about kind of separating the artist from the work when somebody turns

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out to be like a turd in real life and that comes to light, but you still enjoy their work or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they’ve made before you found out they were a turd. You can look at the various companies that he’s been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco involved with so far, and I think largely they’ve been pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good. You know, they’re not all perfect, and some of his wacky ideas didn’t get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off the ground or were too ridiculous to even consider, but Teslas are pretty great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cars and they are selling an absolute ton of them. And they’ve done great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things for car electrification. So that’s a pretty huge thing. They did great things in batteries.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re working on doing great things in solar. SpaceX is itself a pretty great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, doing itself pretty great things. Starlink is a bunch of asterisks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the space debris problem, but that’s a pretty amazing idea as well that from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the handful of people I know who have used it, it’s pretty great. So I think owning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter, again, if we just don’t even pay attention to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the crap he says, just look at the work, and I know that’s hard because he says a lot,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and most of it’s horrendously, you know, inflammatory or ridiculous or whatever, but just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ignore everything he says and just look at the work. Owning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter kind of fits in the sense that it’s yet another massive challenge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in yet another area that he has at least started out knowing nothing about. But, you know, do you think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he knew how to make cars before Tesla? Do you think he knew how to make rockets before SpaceX? Like, do you think he knew how to launch satellites and run an ISP

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before Starlink? Like, this is actually fitting a pattern that he does of tackling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco truly ridiculous, pretty large-scale, pretty difficult problems that he thinks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he can do, regardless of why he thinks he can do them or the ridiculous ideas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that he gets when he that he spouts off on Twitter. Again, if you ignore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of that because he’s a massive troll and kind of a dick, so if you just ignore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of that and just look at the work, he does actually achieve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some pretty remarkable things and so that’s why I think, hey you know what I’ll give him the benefit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the doubt, I’ll stick around on Twitter to see what the heck he does with the place because again it wasn’t well run before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so he’s tackling a massive problem again and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the past when he has tackled massive problems it’s actually worked out pretty well eventually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again if you ignore everything he says so i’m willing to apply the same strategy here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco turns out his car company makes pretty great cars that a lot of people like his rocket company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes pretty good good rockets that are doing important work, you know, his satellite company is covering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco space with these disposable satellites that, all those issues aside, are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco providing a good service to people. So again, big problems, ignore all the crap

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that comes out of the guy’s mouth, and I hope no one has to work for him in the process because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apparently that’s not a super fun amount, or that’s not super fun either, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you look at the work, when I mean, look at what comes out of this, you know, jerk. It actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is often pretty impressive.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s not a blank slate when it comes to Twitter, because we kind of, like, we may not know what he thinks he wants to do with Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John but we know how he uses Twitter. It’s not like Twitter, he’s not new to Twitter. He’s been on Twitter for years. He is a very

⏹️ ▶️ John experienced Twitter user. And if you see the way he uses Twitter and you think, how

⏹️ ▶️ John would this person make Twitter more to their liking? It’s not optimistic. Now, it doesn’t mean that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what he’s gonna do. It doesn’t mean he’s gonna make Twitter more to his liking, but I have a feeling

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that

⏹️ ▶️ John he’s- Look at how Jack used Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco All right. Well, I

⏹️ ▶️ John know. But I think it kind of fit. The way he used it was like, I kind of like it the way it is. And so it didn’t change

⏹️ ▶️ John that much. But Elon wants to change Twitter. I mean, the reason he bought it practically is it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, this is a thing I use all the time. And I think it should be different than it is. So I’m just going to buy it because I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John super rich. So it’s not as if we’re like, I’m just going to learn about social networks now. I mean, he is going to learn

⏹️ ▶️ John about how it is to run them. But we’re not starting from zero in terms of I have no idea what Elon thinks about Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ John at least know what he thinks about it as a user. We don’t know necessarily that he’s going to tailor the service to

⏹️ ▶️ John his own personal tastes, but I have a hard time believing he’ll do much of anything. So I’m going in predisposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to think that the changes that he is going to make are not going to appeal to me and

⏹️ ▶️ John people who are similar mindset, but we’ll see. Like I totally agree, it’s like, it’s hard to talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John until he’s actually done something. Cause it’s point like, we’re not even talking about all the things that he said, cause

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, he says lots of things. He’s changed what he said 17 times. Let’s just wait to see what he actually does. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John am not particularly optimistic because pretty much every idea that he’s floated with

⏹️ ▶️ John a few minor exceptions does not seem like the way to go to me. But, uh, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. Well, but see, even that, like in all the stupid crap he has floated,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s usually been like a little kernel of something that was actually correct or good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John about it. You say

⏹️ ▶️ John everything eventually, one of the things is going to be, you know, if he covers all the bases.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But you know, like all the stupid crap, he said that everyone jumps of throw it about, usually it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay, that’s 80% a bad idea, but 20% of it, you were actually on track for something good, you know? And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s how he does lots of things. That like, if you look at the way he runs his companies and some of the ideas he tries,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he does, he tries lots of crazy stuff where he floats a lot of crazy ideas or he says lots of crazy things. Some of them never happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thank God. Some of them do like the Cybertruck.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Right. Yeah. Well, that’s, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey It’s not out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey it yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, it’s, it’ll arrive just before Linux on the desktop really arrives. It’ll, it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be the same time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but anyway, like, you know, he has a bunch of ridiculous ideas. He tries to, like, you know, look at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of the things he’s talked about on Twitter so far. So, you know, some of the immediate controversies are that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he wanted to lay off a bunch of people. Well, yeah, Twitter’s way too big for what it is. How he does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey it… Well, but slow down, but he laid off the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people. Right, it was the wrong people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this is the 80% bad part. But the 20% of it, like, he identified a real problem,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so he might have solved it poorly.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you’d pick someone off the street and put them in charge of Twitter, they also would have laid off a lot of people because everyone knows it’s overstaffed.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like that’s what attributing this is like, you know, the obvious thing that everybody knew but no one had the guts

⏹️ ▶️ John to it’s a condemnation of previous Twitter management obviously.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the previous dropping door of leadership never touched it. So you know, so that’s one thing. Okay, they’re the ones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that hired all those people. Right? So that’s one thing. So there’s also, you know, look at, you know, his dumb idea about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tying verification to Twitter blue. Well, some of that is terrible. But also,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter blue is is a premium service that no one I know bought. I know so many people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are Twitter power users. I don’t know a single person who buys Twitter Blue.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no use for it, and I’ve been using this platform for like a decade, heavily, and yet, so obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they launched a premium product that most of their premium users don’t want. Secondarily,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know who could pay for verification, who would love to pay for verification? Businesses,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every single business. I have a verification mark on Overcast. We have one on ATP,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in part, the reason why I sought those was because it makes us look more legitimate. And if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I could have those on other platforms as easily, I would get them there too. Because again, and businesses are, you know, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t want to make like every journalist, you know, in the world have to pay for something that might be able to afford it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whatever, but businesses sure can. So again, there’s a kernel of like, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why, why, you know, you have businesses capturing all this value on Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why not let businesses pay, not $20, make businesses pay $100 a month for a verification

⏹️ ▶️ Marco checkmark? These aren’t terrible ideas completely. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco details that he has floated so far, or that have been rumored that he said, some of the details are awful.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Many of the details are awful. But at the heart, look, Twitter is a platform that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people have identified as totally failing as an advertising delivery service.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And everything people want is away from ads. So what if they launched a premium thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that people wanted to pay six or eight or 10 or 20 bucks a month for?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not that bad. Well, but did you do the math on that though? You do the back of the envelope math, it’s not great.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like that’s the, like, that’s what you get with just saying things and saying like, oh, well, you know, this way. Like just

⏹️ ▶️ John do the back of the envelope math. Like how much of their money they make from ads now? And everyone agrees they’re not doing a good job with ads, but how much do they make

⏹️ ▶️ John from ads now? How much would they make if every single person who’s on Twitter pays what he’s saying a month? And you know 100%

⏹️ ▶️ John of people aren’t gonna pay for it. And it’s like, it’s way less, right? So what’s the plan? Now, obviously, that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s so hard to engage with this. Like, who cares? He hasn’t actually done anything yet. We’ll see. And what if it’s only editive and blah, blah, blah? Like, there’s all

⏹️ ▶️ John these theories about how it could go or whatever. But back of the envelope, like, being able

⏹️ ▶️ John to pay for verification and those type of things, you know, like, as most of the articles that talk about this say,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think there was a, was this in the New York Patel one, that the product of Twitter is moderation?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah. Right? That that’s what they’re selling.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was a great article. Yeah, the Verge, Welcome to Hell.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. Because that’s true of anything that’s advertising driven or whatever. Like you need the people to

⏹️ ▶️ John be there so you can advertise to them. So you have to make it a hospitable place. Twitter has arguably not been great

⏹️ ▶️ John about getting people to be there, but it’s got a lot of the quote unquote valuable people there who are valuable

⏹️ ▶️ John to advertise to or whatever. Like that all makes sense. That just hasn’t been leveraged very well.

⏹️ ▶️ John And verification is part of the moderation product because you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to make it so that there’s a way for people who use your service to determine if this is really a McDonald’s or not McDonald’s. You know what I mean?

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s part of the product that they’re selling, right? You could sell other things on top of that, like let the people

⏹️ ▶️ John who are willing or able to pay get better features or whatever, but that is all in service of

⏹️ ▶️ John making it a place where it is safe and suitable to advertise.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because the money you’re gonna get from the people who pay for any of these services is nothing compared

⏹️ ▶️ John to, like literally every single person on Twitter pays this, it’s not going to match your advertising income,

⏹️ ▶️ John unless you charge every single person $3,000 a month. Like when you do them, and again, I use the everybody because

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s ridiculous. What percentage of people, no matter how good you make this product, what percentage of the people even can

⏹️ ▶️ John pay for it, let alone will pay for it, then add up all their money and weigh it against your potential advertising

⏹️ ▶️ John to these people who are valuable to advertise to and advertising keeps winning. And so in the end, if you look at this

⏹️ ▶️ John from a business person’s perspective, if you want to make more money than they’re making now, you can

⏹️ ▶️ John cut costs, which is what everybody does when they buy a company, lay off a bunch of people, lower your costs, and you can increase revenue.

⏹️ ▶️ John And where is that we’re gonna come from? You can get some revenue from your users, but there’s not a lot of them. Twitter is not

⏹️ ▶️ John as big as Facebook. So they can’t like get a fraction

⏹️ ▶️ John of a cent from everybody and be bazillionaires. They have to get larger money from advertisers

⏹️ ▶️ John to give access to their relatively small, mere hundreds of millions or whatever Twitter’s

⏹️ ▶️ John user base is of people who are valuable to advertise to. And then there’s the value of the conversation that

⏹️ ▶️ John happens on Twitter. You know, again, makes it a place where people want to be so you can advertise

⏹️ ▶️ John to them. Are there other ways to make money from Twitter? Fine, but any way you come up with to make money from Twitter, you have to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John okay, is this in lieu of advertising? Because if it is, it has to make at least as much money. If it’s not in lieu of advertising, does

⏹️ ▶️ John this make it an environment where advertisers still want to advertise? And that’s where I feel like he gets into trouble with

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of his schemes that he’s throwing out there. Not that they’re bad ideas, because I’ve always been a proponent of

⏹️ ▶️ John have people pay for a service so they can support it with money. Twitter is so long past the point, like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John too big to be supported by its users because not enough people will pay

⏹️ ▶️ John to run Twitter. Like you can’t run Twitter on, you can’t make it like where like everyone who’s on it pays something

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. Twitter is too big for that. But it’s also too small to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a free for all and I don’t care because we have literally 5 billion people so you will advertise with

⏹️ ▶️ John us. It’s in that uncomfortable place in between where it’s just barely too big to be supported

⏹️ ▶️ John by its users You have to advertise to it, but it’s filled with people who want to make it a place where advertisers

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t want to advertise. Well, I’m tired of talking about this. You do wonder if Elon Musk watches

⏹️ ▶️ John Black Mirror and, again, like the joke in the chat room, sees every episode and says, that would be awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Don’t give him any more ideas. Seriously, Jesus. Jesus, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Trade Coffee, and Linode. And thanks to our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco members who support us directly. You can join at slash join. We will talk to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes at And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco N-T Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, check podcast so long


⏹️ ▶️ Casey can have something to lighten the mood please and thank you.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know maybe we just have to come to I did I did enjoy the part where he thought Stephen King was balking at paying $20 so he said

⏹️ ▶️ John how about eight?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He’s so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dumb he’s so dumb he’s not dumb that was that was trolling that was like I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco come on was it he

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a troll oh he’s unquestionably a troll unquestionably

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean that’s part of that part of the part of saying that he’s always that he’s always a troll is uh

⏹️ ▶️ John attributing to him an intelligence, wisdom, and self-awareness that is not in evidence, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey seems like… Thank you!

⏹️ ▶️ John You know what I mean? Like, it’s easier to say that because, like, well, obviously he must be smart because he’s rich, and so when he

⏹️ ▶️ John says something stupid it must be because he’s trolling to get a rise out of you. But no, sometimes he’s just stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I mean, and the things he… like, this strikes me as trolling, but I’m not convinced

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is. Yeah, for sure he is

⏹️ ▶️ John definitely a troll. Like, I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey arguing… No, no, no, he’s a thousand percent a troll.

⏹️ ▶️ John But sometimes it’s hard to tell when he’s trolling and when he’s just dumb, because there’s enough of both to go around.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and this is such an absurd tweet. He tweeted a couple hours ago, Advertisers should support this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey poll. Option one, freedom of speech. Option two, political quote correctness. That’s trolling.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know it is, but it’s so… Like why do we worship this jacket? Why? I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t get it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think a lot of people worship. I don’t think it’s an epidemic of worship. It’s an epidemic of positive regard,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is how we got Trump as president. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what it is. Can we please talk about anything else, for the love of Christ? Please. I don’t care what. Anything. Anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else. Why did I bring this? I brought this on myself. I’m an idiot. I shouldn’t have brought it up.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, we avoided it for as long as we could. He’s like, well, he was going to buy it, but then he’s trying to get out of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it. It’s been going on for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey months. And it was going

⏹️ ▶️ John to end up, and it went on for, and eventually it ended the way, again,

⏹️ ▶️ John that fly in the face of the idea of being him and him being a mastermind that he it seems like he wanted

⏹️ ▶️ John to buy twitter and just sort of a fit of peak of like yeah i should control this because i’m on it all the time and it

⏹️ ▶️ John sucks and i can make it better and i should buy it for a ridiculous price and then he kind of said well actually maybe i don’t want to do that

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like a dumb idea can i get out of it oh no i can’t oh i guess i’m buying it like that is not the sign of a

⏹️ ▶️ John stable genius as they would say like it’s not the sign of somebody who has got their stuff together and is,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it’s sure is decisive action. He took a decisive action to do a stupid thing and then he decisively said, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John getting the hell out of this and he decisively couldn’t do that. It’s not, it does not reflect

⏹️ ▶️ John well on him. If someone who was not a millionaire did that, you would pity them, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s not a billionaire, sorry, Elon. Not the America’s richest man, you would

⏹️ ▶️ John feel pity for them and how little hold they had over their life and what poor decisions they make. But when someone

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s fabulously wealthy does it, people will bend over backwards to attribute genius to those moves. Those moves were not

⏹️ ▶️ John genius, not at all. Just ask the bankers who lent him the money.