Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

485: This Is Casey Actual

WWDC hopes, WWDC dreams, WWDC predictions, and WWDC… menus?

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Livestream update
  2. Casey’s Fastmail credit
  3. Price is Right on 🖼️
  4. Fitness+ production update
  5. Sponsor: Iodyne Pro Data
  6. WWDC menus
  7. Sponsor: Hullo Pillow
  8. John’s Mac Studio
  9. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  10. WWDC hopes
  11. Ending theme
  12. How’s John’s self-employed sleep?

Livestream update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have a slightly different live stream set up this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John time.

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t even check that. Let me see.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco We’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still streaming to the audio channel, basically, like the IceCast MP3

⏹️ ▶️ Marco server. Still streaming to that. But our wonderful application I use over here, Audio Hijack,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while back added support to also stream to RTMP,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco RTSP, whatever the streaming protocols are that you can stream to Twitch and stuff, or YouTube Live, or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else. And so they have this thing. So I figured for high volume WBDC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco season, this would be a good opportunity to test out one of these. And between

⏹️ ▶️ Marco YouTube Live and Twitch, the reason I went with Twitch is because, to the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of my knowledge, YouTube Live requires you to create the video entry in their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CMS before you can stream. And you have to do that each time. Like you create a new one each time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Whereas Twitch, you just have a channel and you can just put in your stream key as the authentication

⏹️ ▶️ Marco token in the streaming app, and you can just hit go whenever you want. And you don’t have to do a new setup

⏹️ ▶️ Marco each episode or each time you want to hit go. So, for my purposes, Twitch was way easier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for this purpose, even though we don’t actually intend to use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitch as a major platform for any other reason. But for this particular purpose,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seemed to go well there. So I do intend to use this setup next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week during WBC to provide extra capacity, which is the whole reason I did in the first place.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because you typically WBC shows usually really max out our live stream server and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some people can’t get through or drop the connection or something. So the Twitch version should be much more reliable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I should note also this is an audio only stream, it’s generating some kind of like basic visualization.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also that’s also a built in feature of audio hijack. it’s not showing our faces or anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you’re not missing a video version of it. Yeah, so anyway, I’m going to be doing this next week and if this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually proves to be useful, maybe we’ll do more of it in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’ll at least be this week and next week.

Casey’s Fastmail credit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s do some follow-up because we probably have a big episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wanted to briefly mention and say thank you to those who signed up for Fastmail

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using my referral because this is the first of the month and that’s when Fastmail reports in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on your referral earnings and I am happy to say I now have a year of free Fastmail, baby! Woo! I’m excited.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco soon you’ll have that big payout that you’ll be like, oh, I gotta have them pay me out because it’s too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey much. I’ll never use it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in 100

⏹️ ▶️ Casey years. I could only be so lucky.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, that should be how we fund your XDR, even though I mean, I know that joke’s kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over because you got the other monitor, but it would be kind of a great way to, you know, somehow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to accumulate $5,000 of credit on fast mail.

⏹️ ▶️ John That would be amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I wish

⏹️ ▶️ John Fastmail would be a sponsor again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That would also be a much easier route.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that’s, I feel like, you know, when somebody’s a sponsor, that’s like your salary, like you’re getting paid to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your job. Whereas like affiliate money feels like free money. It’s like, it feels like fun money, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expecting it. I didn’t do anything for this. I just, you know, this just arrived in my inbox.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. And so it arrived in my inbox this morning that I got $63.50 in referral

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cash. So that means I have next year, because I’ve already paid for this year, but I have next year for free.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So keep it coming folks. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a redirect to my referral page if you are interested. And all self-serving

⏹️ ▶️ Casey plugging aside, I am still extremely happy with FastMail. I’m very glad that I switched. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have been really pleased with it, and that is the truth. I’m not saying that because I’ve been instructed to, I’m not saying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that because I just want free service. That

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey honestly is the truth. So if you’re interested at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Working towards the XDR.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Something like that. Three

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dollars at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bucks at a time, maybe. But I really have been enjoying it. And even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I can’t afford NextDR, I do still have this LG 5K to my right-hand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey side. And it would be much nicer if it was a second studio display. So you could always do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So and all the referrals.

Price is Right on

Chapter Price is Right on image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We got some extremely important feedback from a bunch of different people, so I can’t cite just one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is, I think, mostly for Marco, actually. The Price is Right is available for free,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least in the States, potentially elsewhere, on Pluto TV, which is something I’d never heard of.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Likewise.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No sign-up is required, or so we were told. I did not confirm this. And it is all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Bob Barker era, which honestly, I don’t know how well that holds up at this point, but nevertheless, Nevertheless,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is what is probably considered to be the golden age of Price is Right. So should Adam fall

⏹️ ▶️ Casey under the weather again, you can go to and you can check

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out the Price is Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s got ads on it, right? And it doesn’t have period-specific ads, which would be cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That would be very cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John Slightly more cool. Instead, it’s got modern ads, which are not cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, and it has like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, modern, I think like, you know, bargain basement streaming service ads, which are all, you know, it’s like, it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these are not, you know, things that are fun or novel to watch in any way. Like, so I actually did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go and watch a few minutes of it. And it was interesting. I didn’t know about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this entire service, Pluto TV. And I heard also there’s like a Roku channel, but I think that’s just this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It seems like there’s a few different front ends that are just all going to this service.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it was really interesting watching, because what I saw was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a version of it that was even from before I watched, It was like Bob Barker when his hair was still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco brown, or at least it was colored brown. But it was like an old, old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version, I think from the 70s, before my time. And of course, he was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being kind of a jerk to the contestants. And it was like, oh yeah, I’m not sure how well this holds up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it was very entertaining to see.

Fitness+ production update

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We got some relatively long feedback, but I found it to be absolutely fascinating from an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anonymous person that works for an Apple Fitness Plus competitor. And I’m going to read a lot,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but not all of this verbatim. And again, I just found this to be absolutely fascinating. So this was with regard to the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Plus Studio Tour that I was embittered that wasn’t really a studio tour at all, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how they go about making these videos. And so this individual writes, after taping

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a show from the control room comes what is called the line cut. This line cut is not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the show that will be distributed, it is more like a blueprint, a reference for the editors to work with. Some directors even request

⏹️ ▶️ Casey their audio recorded as a separate track so they can give directions to the editor, like don’t use this camera, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey resize this shot. It’s like having your own private DVD commentary track. The line cut goes to the assistant editors,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they recreate the cut using the raw footage from the camera cards. It’s a rather automated process, although depending on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show’s setup, sometimes it’s done manually. You want to work with the uncompressed footage and no color correction, since

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there will be a proper color pass once the cut is locked. The line cut is both compressed and has a temporary color filter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So once the cut is rebuilt as a multicam project, it goes to the editor. Why an editor still? Well, like you mentioned in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey podcast, many times we have to correct mistakes, replacing segments that had to be re-shot or cut around

⏹️ ▶️ Casey smaller blunders. But there is a lot more than that. For instance, even with the best crew, there tends to be a slight delay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey between the director calling a camera and the shot actually changing. This is not a big deal for an awards show, but with a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey workout video, you might have missed the beginning of a move or the trainer pointing out something that is very important

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and could prevent users from injury. And there’s also some creative stuff. Perhaps the director called a shot and then it turns

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out that one of the other cameras found something much better. The process is more involved than it might seem, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey often the show is very different after it goes through editing. So I thought that was all fascinating, that even if they’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of a screw it, we’ll do it live sort of thing, they still will go back in most

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cases and re-edit everything using this kind of quasi-director’s commentary as a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey blueprint, which was super cool. This is tangentially related. This is Casey talking. This is tangentially related,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I found it to also be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco completely wild.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, sorry, I didn’t want it to sound like that was a very awkward turn of phrase. I didn’t want it to say, well, fix it in post.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey DeMarco, please use a different line for that. That’s your director’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey commentary right there, baby. I felt like it sounded like I was still reading verbatim and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in an awkward way, only I could. I’ve ruined everything. All right. So this was a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tidbit that I also found interesting that’s tangentially related. I had no idea this was a thing. So now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is no longer Casey talking and this is back to the individual. Isn’t it? Shush, just go with it. Just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go with it. This is Casey actual.

⏹️ ▶️ John We all learned the meaning of that from Battlestar Galactica. I’ve already forgotten. No. I’ve never seen it. What? You’ve never seen Battlestar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Galactica? What? You’re going to have to wait for Casey to come back. I’m sorry. This is the feedback person.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t understand. I don’t know why you’re still surprising me. I don’t know. I’d start to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, Casey’s seen some stuff. He’s seen things. Not like people say. Never seen

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Battlestar Galactica. All right, fine. Chris

⏹️ ▶️ John Cosentino

⏹️ ▶️ Casey By the way, about the remote work thing, in case you’re not familiar with the technology, it is rather amazing. The Mac Pro, which I use,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is in some data center miles away, and you connect to it via the regular internet using a little terminal,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which happens to be an AMULET hotkey DXZ4. It is indistinguishable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from having a local computer. We live in the future. So that was all that this person said. This is Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talking. That was all that this person said. And so I had to figure out what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What the crap is an Amulet Hotkey DXZ4? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so, of course, I went digging about and I found their marketing site or whatever, which was very enterprisy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and not entirely helpful. But I eventually got to the following little snippet. So it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey box, and it’s PCOIP, which I presume means personal computer over IP. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from their site, the PCOIP host includes USB, audio, and video from the host,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and and encodes USB audio and video from the host, and then compresses and encrypts the data for transmission

⏹️ ▶️ Casey across standard IP networks to the Xero client. The Xero client then decrypts and decompresses the data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and delivers it to the desktop monitors and peripherals. The Xero client also passes user-generated USB and audio data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the PCO IP host. Only the display pixels are sent to the client, so no sensitive data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever reaches the client. So this is a box that has two network cables, two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey RJ45 jacks for redundancy purposes, Also available, gentlemen, two SFP

⏹️ ▶️ Casey jacks, which are fiber connectors, just in case someone was bananas enough to use fiber in the home, but who would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever do that, am I right? It can support, it has four HDMI ports, so it can do four 1920 by 1200 displays,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or two 3440 by 1440 displays, and it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has four USB-A ports for like keyboards and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey microphones and things of that nature. So this is a little box that you plug it in your house, And it’s basically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you’re using a Mac Pro that literally is miles and miles and miles away, but it’s as though you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sitting in front of it. And I was talking to a couple different people that do work like this, and they said that in modern

⏹️ ▶️ Casey times, it is nearly indistinguishable from being in front of the computer, which to me is utterly bananas.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because I’ll use VNC to go from the downstairs to the upstairs, and it is very distinguishable from sitting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in front of the computer. So I found this to be absolutely fascinating. Maybe it’s just me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Did you ever use X Windows system when you were in school, or was that out of fashion by the time you got there?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did some, but not a ton. And when I did, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so when I think of X Window, I just think of a graphical user interface, like GNOME or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what was the other one that was popular? KDE. Yes, thank you. I think of that as X Windows, but are you talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the more traditional definition where you can have like Windows running remotely but shown locally,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that what you mean?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, it’s another way to use, it’s a way to use a GUI on another computer that’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ John one you’re sitting in front of. you’re sitting in front of an X term, but the much more powerful computer that is elsewhere, I mean, maybe across the country,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe in a different building, is where you’re actually running your things. And I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John even Nextstep had something similar to this. I’m not quite sure how X Windows does

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing, but the way Next used to do things is with display Postscript. So instead of sending pixel

⏹️ ▶️ John buffers across the wire, because we didn’t really have bandwidth for that back in the day, like VNC was slow, slow or

⏹️ ▶️ John ugly, because it would like massively compress everything. I would send the Postscript scan. Postscript is just like a, you know, it’s a programming

⏹️ ▶️ John language. So you could send an ASCII text and it would send the postscript commands over to the Xterm. The Xterm would

⏹️ ▶️ John run a postscript engine and execute those. So it was sort of a, you know, a lossless

⏹️ ▶️ John compression. Instead, rather than sending the pixels that get rendered, you send the rendering commands. I forget what

⏹️ ▶️ John they call it. NS host, NX hosting, or I forget what it was called, the next step. And I think X might’ve done, X11

⏹️ ▶️ John might’ve done something similar with sending commands, but honestly, I don’t know how it worked. But anyway, that was, this is what this reminded

⏹️ ▶️ John me of, like sitting in front of a computer it’s not the big fancy computer using a bigger fancier

⏹️ ▶️ John computer with a GUI.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But again, there’s no computer, no local computer involved here. Like, I mean, I guess strictly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking this amulet hotkey thing is a computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. There’s no like traditional computer at your local station.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, the Xterm was also not really a computer, but also, you know, it’s like they’re Turing complete machines that

⏹️ ▶️ John have networking and do a thing. It’s just that they’re very small nowadays. But yeah, but the Xterms had no, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, not Not much power, no, I don’t think they had any local storage. They just had a big

⏹️ ▶️ John ethernet port in the back and enough compute to do the job they were asked to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do. Yeah. Yeah. I just thought this was really wild and really cool. I remember, I have told this story many times on the show, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it just makes me think of it when you bring up like VNC and stuff. I remember vividly the first time I saw someone use VNC,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was sitting in my dorm room and a friend from like way on the other end of the hallway

⏹️ ▶️ Casey came into my room and he was like, oh, you know, can I ask you something real quick? and then he asked me a question, and then,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, he just sat down to chill out for a little bit, and then all of a sudden he says, oh, shoot, I left my music

⏹️ ▶️ Casey playing in my room. Can I use your computer for a second? I was like, what? Yeah? And so he

⏹️ ▶️ Casey goes to some website that looked like, I think it was like an IP address or something like that, and, you know, with a port

⏹️ ▶️ Casey number tacked on the end, and all of a sudden he’s looking at another computer, and I was like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what is this magic? What is happening here? And sure enough, he paused the music in his

⏹️ ▶️ Casey room from my room, and it was amazing. It was like nothing I’d ever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seen. This was like late in 2000, maybe early 2001, something like that. And I just thought it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was the coolest thing I’d ever seen in my life. It was amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was the intention. I guarantee you that was no accident.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh, whoops! Probably not. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco visiting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey a fellow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nerd. I’m a nerd, and I accidentally left my music playing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey excuse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me. Let me show off. Yeah, that was totally no accident. Yeah, that was totally no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accident.

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WWDC menus

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, you discovered a WWDC in-person info slash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey schedule slash stuff in menu even. And I saw this via Paul

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hudson. Maybe you’d seen it from there from somewhere else. But we have a little bit of details for those that are attending.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this is the, you know, the lottery that they ran basically said, hey, do you want to come to California

⏹️ ▶️ John and watch some videos with us? And the interesting thing is, they I asked people to

⏹️ ▶️ John sign up to enter this lottery, not knowing much more than that, that you’re gonna have to come to California, you’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John come to Apple Park, whatever that means. You know, you have a random chance of doing it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And we’re gonna watch the keynote video, and I think maybe they said State of the Union, they said video is plural.

⏹️ ▶️ John But now I think the people who won this lottery and who entered and won this lottery

⏹️ ▶️ John now started to get their sort of itineraries. And so a couple of people tweeted pictures of it in typical

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple fashion. just a bunch of white line art on a black background. But I’ll just go through

⏹️ ▶️ John the steps here. There’s check-in at 7 a.m. Apple Developer Open House,

⏹️ ▶️ John also at 7 a.m. And the locations are interesting. So the check-in is Apple Park Visitor Center. We know where that is.

⏹️ ▶️ John We talked about it in the previous show. Apple Developer Center is that building that we thought was gonna be whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John Tantau Road, I don’t remember the name of that thing. Talked about it in a previous show. Breakfast is in

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Park Cafe Max. So that is the big cafeteria thing with the two giant glass doors that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John in the ring building. So if you want this ladder, you are going to go to the ring building and you’re going to eat in that big

⏹️ ▶️ John cafeteria thing. And like we talked about a couple shows back, some anonymous person

⏹️ ▶️ John was telling us about events where they had like friends and family come to Apple Park and they have them basically corralled into

⏹️ ▶️ John the Cafe Max area and some other adjoining areas so they could use the bathrooms that are attached to Cafe Max and everything. So

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s where everyone will be. Then it says time for the keynote at 10 a.m. And the location for that just says Apple Park.

⏹️ ▶️ John Who knows what that means. Are they gonna, again, people keep thinking they’re gonna go to the middle of the ring and there’s gonna be a screen set up under the rainbow

⏹️ ▶️ John stage, who knows. But they will, you know, breakfast is inside the ring, so

⏹️ ▶️ John it makes sense that the video watching would be somewhere near there as well. Lunch is back to Cafe Max.

⏹️ ▶️ John State of the Union, again, back to Apple Park, whatever that means. Meet the teams in Cafe

⏹️ ▶️ John Max. I don’t know, they’re gonna have a bunch of engineering teams hanging out at tables and you get to go talk to them. And then there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of tours all happening at the same time. You can tour Apple Park Hills. You can tour

⏹️ ▶️ John the fitness center area. Casey would be interested in that. Get a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco real tour of the

⏹️ ▶️ John fitness center area. Or you can tour Cafe Max. I mean, you’ve already been there for like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, meals and meeting the team. So I guess you can see how they make pizzas and put them in the fancy

⏹️ ▶️ John boxes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that kind of seems like the overflow option. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t get into the other two, you know, so you’ll fall back too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, and then Apple Design Awards at 430 location listed as Apple Park. This is interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ John So seems like a full day. They have a lot of activities for everyone to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. It, it, this implies to me, and I’m reading heavily between

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the lines, but I think they’re trying to keep this as open air as they reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can for the big groups. Cause if you think about it, you know, uh, Cafe Max, like you had mentioned, John has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from what I’ve seen, I’ve never seen in person, but from what I’ve gathered, you know, there’s two humongous, humongous,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey humongous doors that open incredibly wide and get a ton of airflow through, I would assume through there. And plus,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t the ring have like natural heating and cooling such that there’s like a ton of airflow anyway

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or so we were told? Something like that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we should find a picture of this because we keep saying doors, but they’re not doors. The whole side of the building moves. It’s like a four-story

⏹️ ▶️ John high piece of glass. The whole side of the building just opens up and it basically becomes a pass-through. Like, imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John a section of the ring that only has the roof on it. It’s kind of like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that you could claim is quasi-outdoors.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then they just say Apple Park. So if it is indeed somewhere in the center of the ring,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well, that’s certainly outdoors and then you know That means everything is to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some reasonable definition outdoors And if you’re going to do something where a bunch of people from a bunch of places are gathering

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it were me I would want as much of this to be outside as possible And then if you’re doing something inside it would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only be in smaller groups Like if you wanted to tour the Fitness Center, which is itself presumably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a very large space but still indoors you would probably want a subset of those that are there doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. So this seems to me like they’re trying to play this as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasonably and safely as possible. We’ll see what ends up actually happening. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I approve in principle as someone who is still a nervous Ned about COVID stuff because Michaela can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get her shot yet. This seems like as good as one can hope. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But there’s a menu too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, that’s the most important part. They’re not going to get boxed lunches, guys. I guess you’re at Cafe Max and you can get freshly made

⏹️ ▶️ John food, but there’s two menus. I guess it’s kind of like a dinner menu and a breakfast menu. So here’s the most

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting thing about the dinner menu. There’s lots of options. I’m sure they’re all very good, but they have kind of all caps, like

⏹️ ▶️ John category above each one. And the categories, I feel like this is Apple’s sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John stating what they believe are the major categories of food. You know, kind of like the six genders. Here’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what they are, right? The major

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco categories

⏹️ ▶️ John of food are vegan, Italian, grill,

⏹️ ▶️ John Pangea, Indian, Pacific Rim, Romana,

⏹️ ▶️ John Latin, and two desserts. Yeah. So I mean, that covers us the whole world of food.

⏹️ ▶️ John Vegan, Italian, grill, Pangea, Indian, Pacific Rim, Romana, Latin, dessert, dessert.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t think we missed anything, did we? Because

⏹️ ▶️ John Pangea, like, Pangea is everything. Like, it’s a giant mega continent that included all the other continents. So technically,

⏹️ ▶️ John anything not covered by the other categories is covered by Pangea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, I’m a little curious though. The Pangea option is salmon. Why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would they name the fish dish after a large landmass?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know. I mean, most of

⏹️ ▶️ John the earth was water when Pangea was around. You just had the big giant continent and maybe there was

⏹️ ▶️ John salmon in that water? That seems

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco unlikely.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I think they’re river fish anyway. I don’t know that much about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John fish. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, they go back and forth.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But still, it seemed like a weird thing to have the one seafood dish be named after a large landmass.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so the vegan was vegan thing is kung pao tofu and vegetables Italian lasagna grill is

⏹️ ▶️ John barbecue brisket panchia suit salmon Indian is chicken tikka masala Pacific Rim is Thai green

⏹️ ▶️ John chicken curry Romana is Romana quattro There’s a pizza

⏹️ ▶️ John Carne asada burrito is the Italian and then two desserts are dark dark chocolate panna cotta and

⏹️ ▶️ John vegan mixed berry coppola It’s a very fancy sounding menu and assuming this food is it’s got to be better than

⏹️ ▶️ John the box lunches So I feel like these people are getting a more premium experience. Would you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco eat the lasagna?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s exactly what I was gonna say. Okay, John, how do you feel about house-made pasta sheets layered with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bolognese, bechamel, I’m probably pronouncing this all wrong, Parmigiano, served over tomato sauce? How do you feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about that, John? I have

⏹️ ▶️ John had bad luck with Italian food in California. California’s a big place. I have been to only a tiny,

⏹️ ▶️ John tiny portion of it and then mostly had box lunches. So this is not a judgment on whether, you know, that

⏹️ ▶️ John an entire state, all I’m saying is that For the tiny, tiny amount of experience I’ve had in California, I

⏹️ ▶️ John have not had good luck with Italian food. I feel like I would probably go with something that

⏹️ ▶️ John would have a higher chance of being good. So maybe the burrito, which the area is,

⏹️ ▶️ John the few tiny areas in California that I have been to are known for having good burritos. I feel like there’s a higher chance of that one

⏹️ ▶️ John being good. I probably would not pick a lasagna.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A burrito filled with carne asada, Spanish rice, black beans, pico de gallo, and mozzarella cheese, served with red

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and green salsa and corn tortilla chips. That does sound solid.

⏹️ ▶️ John That sounds a little weird. You know, I don’t know. I don’t think I would pick the Italian out

⏹️ ▶️ John of this choice.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would absolutely choose barbecue brisket. Slow roasted beef brisket glazed with our house-made barbecue sauce served with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey three cheese macaroni and cheese. I mean, even if the brisket stinks, the mac and cheese is probably gonna be passable.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Worst,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so sold.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do hyphens cost a lot of money in California?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Wow. You’re such

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco a

⏹️ ▶️ John grump. What should be hyphenated here?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like every other word.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, these have to be like standard dishes and Cafe Mac, so just ask Apple people. What’s good that

⏹️ ▶️ John they make there out of this choice? They’d know which one to pick. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I would say the Pacific Rim, the Thai green chicken curry sounds good. I also might go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with a vegan Kung Pao tofu and vegetables. To me, for whatever it’s worth, I haven’t been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the Ring yet, but we did go to the Visitor Center there, and they have a little coffee shop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there, and I remember that being very good. And also, years ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we were lucky enough to go to the Infinite Loop campus at one point,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I ate at Cafe Max there, and that was excellent. Yeah, it really was. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I’m hoping that they’ve continued the tradition with the new building, and they probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have. Like, their record on the food they serve their employees, as far as I know, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty solid. So I would expect this to all be pretty good, really.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I went to—this was not with the two of y’all—but I went to, I think it’s called Alves. I probably pronounced

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that wrong as well, but I was told it was like a rough draft for what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey became Café Max in the ring, and that was super fancy as well, and that was really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good to my recollection. So yeah, to me, I would do barbecue brisket, maybe the seared salmon. Seared salmon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey served over roasted vegetable quinoa salad. Did you ever see that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John commercial?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Quinoa. What is a quinoa? Anyway, but that’s probably what I would choose. But But no, I mean, this looks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty decent now. However, I have also not spent an overabundance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of time in California, and I think I can still be so bold as to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say, finding a decent, nay, passable bagel in the entire

⏹️ ▶️ Casey state of California is challenging from everything I’ve understood, both from locals and from my own experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, how do you feel about the San Daniele Prosciutto Bagel? Everything bagel,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey San Daniele Prosciutto, Mascarpone cream, heirloom tomato, and micro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey horseradish. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, random bagels I just avoid everywhere. Definitely in California, I would avoid them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Although again, like these, you know, fresh fruit, can’t go wrong with that. Berries parfait, hard to mess that

⏹️ ▶️ John up. This is, I guess, the breakfast menu we’re looking at here. Although, something occurs to me

⏹️ ▶️ John looking at all of this. So, part of Apple having, you know, reportedly

⏹️ ▶️ John good food for its employees is unlike Google and Facebook and stuff like that, it’s not free. The

⏹️ ▶️ John employees pay for the food. Now, maybe they’re paying a subsidized price, but they do pay

⏹️ ▶️ John money, is my understanding, for their food. But looking at this big list here, I don’t see any prices.

⏹️ ▶️ John So if you won the lottery and got to go to this, you know, come to Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Park and watch WWDC videos with us, do you get this food for free or are they gonna make you pay?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would hope they did it for free, but Apple is cheap, so I wouldn’t be surprised

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John if we

⏹️ ▶️ John have to pay. Like the employees have to pay and their Apple employees, but you’re just guessing this is a one-time special thing

⏹️ ▶️ John So maybe it’s all free. This is this is what we need reporting on many people

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey on the ground

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco We need photos

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey we need to say did you pay

⏹️ ▶️ John and? Get a group together and everyone get one of the entrees and tell me it tell us which one was the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right Everyone else is gonna actually everyone was gonna be talking about like, you know The new AR framework or whatever and we’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be talking about whether you had to pay for your San Daniel prosciutto

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John like once you’re on Thursday, once you’re on Thursday, Thursday of WWDC week, people start thinking

⏹️ ▶️ John about the food a little bit more. And not that people are gonna be there until Thursday, but I’m saying eventually you get tired of sessions

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s time to talk about the food, so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So anyway, so we should, for completeness sake, we should read this. So the aforementioned prosciutto bagel,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey smoked salmon and caviar bagel, almond butter and avocado toast, very on brand for California, fresh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fruit, berries parfait, overnight oats, and assorted mini breakfast patries, as well as a beverage selection of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cafe Max juices, coffee, tea and water.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to go with the assorted breakfast pastries. That’s one of my favorite parts of WNWC back when we would go to it in person

⏹️ ▶️ John is assorted breakfast pastries. Really hard to screw up like extremely over

⏹️ ▶️ John buttered sugar glaze pastries with fruit inside them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, this is this is what people tune in for. This is the important work. So I’m glad, John, that you spied that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it weird to you that the only breakfast bagel options contain either meat or fish

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on top?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No! It’s a lox bagel or something that vaguely resembles a lox

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bagel.

⏹️ ▶️ John Prosciutto is not lox.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John no, no, the smoked salmon caviar bagel. It’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John very confused, California-ified… I mean, that bagel’s not going to be a bagel anyway. It’s going to be really hard, dense, not very good bread.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s true. I’m talking more about the smoked salmon one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do wonder what… is micro horseradish made from tiny horses? I don’t know. This is… I have so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many questions.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, the smoked salmon bagel with caviar, because of course. That to me is some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fancy person’s, you know, I’m too cool for you artisanal take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on a lox bagel with cream cheese or whatever. Totally. What are you going to do?

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John’s Mac Studio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, John, let’s talk about what everyone has been dying to talk about. Let’s talk

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about your Mac Studio.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I mentioned last year that I had my Mac Studio, but I hadn’t even opened the box and that I should do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And when I did, I had to give a report on the fan noise and everything. And so I

⏹️ ▶️ John figured if I’m going to open it up and hook it up to something, I should probably, you know, do the migration as

⏹️ ▶️ John well, but that’s a time consuming process. So that’s what I did. I opened it up. 4K monitor,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then I had to hook it up to my Mac’s iMac to start doing the migration. And I realized when I was hooking it up that I had

⏹️ ▶️ John done all this preparation, got all this stuff together, doing the AV preparation, doing my Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John studio preparation. I didn’t think about getting a cable to connect

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac studio to a 2015 5K iMac. That 5K

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac has on the back of it a bunch of USB-A ports, an ethernet port,

⏹️ ▶️ John and a bunch of Thunderbolt 2 ports, which look like mini display port, like that’s the shape of the connector.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I swore that I had a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter, like

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the white Apple dongles, and a Thunderbolt 2 cable. And I was close, I had the adapter, in

⏹️ ▶️ John fact I have two of those adapters. So I was excited about that, but I don’t have a Thunderbolt 2

⏹️ ▶️ John cable.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John like, well, I thought I had a Thunderbolt 2 cable laying around, but I know I did a big cable cleanup recently, so who knows where that

⏹️ ▶️ John is. But I was like, well, worst case scenario, I know where I can get one. I have a Thunderbolt display upstairs.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I looked all over the house, couldn’t find one, I’m like, all right, time to go get the Thunderbolt display. So I go up there, move all

⏹️ ▶️ John the boxes, get up the giant Thunderbolt display box, open it up, and the cable is stuck

⏹️ ▶️ John to the back of that monitor. Oh no. It’s not, it’s like, it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John rat tail that comes off of it and the other end is not removable, it’s just inside the

⏹️ ▶️ John monitor. So that was sad. So I’m like, all right, well, I did some math, It’s a little bit of math,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, okay, ethernet, one gigabit, right? How much data is on the SSD? How long will it take?

⏹️ ▶️ John Ah, I’ll get him up with like an estimate of like four hours and like, that’s not that bad. And this is

⏹️ ▶️ John another time to sing the praises of Migration Assistant. I don’t remember when the last time I

⏹️ ▶️ John used it was, but use it again here. I plug the machines in, ethernet,

⏹️ ▶️ John follow the instructions, you know, and then it brings up the Migration Assistant thing and it gives me an option of what I

⏹️ ▶️ John want. And then while it’s running, it has like this little, you know, blue link thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John you can press. It says like connection info or connection details. And it shows you all the connections that

⏹️ ▶️ John are available to it, that it speed tested. And I just plugged an ethernet cable. So it said,

⏹️ ▶️ John ethernet speed tested to, you know, 900 megabits or whatever. It was like almost a gigabit, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And then it said, peer to peer speed tested to 50 megabits. And then it said,

⏹️ ▶️ John wifi speed tested to 40 megabits. I think it’s peer to peer is like when it does the sort of airdrop peer to peer wireless

⏹️ ▶️ John network without going through like the euros essentially. Right? And these are two machines that are like two feet away, but it was great

⏹️ ▶️ John that it showed me all the options and showed me that I was using the fastest one. And then it even had a tip that said,

⏹️ ▶️ John hint, to make this go faster, connect through Thunderbolt. I’m like, yeah, I know, thanks.

⏹️ ▶️ John So. That’s cool. I didn’t know it had that whole thing. It’s really cool. It’s really nice. And then it says, just connect

⏹️ ▶️ John the Thunderbolt to make it go faster. And I was like, that probably means that if I did have a Thunderbolt 2 cable, I could just plug it

⏹️ ▶️ John in like while it’s running and it would just swap to it and go faster. So it started

⏹️ ▶️ John running and it’s like, it took a long time to even get an estimate because it’s counting files, it’s like millions of files or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And eventually gives an estimate like, you know, 20, 30 minutes into it and says it’s gonna be like four or five hours.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, oh, well, you know, I’ll just let it run. But then I realized, well, I can just

⏹️ ▶️ John go get a Thunderbolt 2 cable. And I was like, well, do I know where I can find one? Do I wanna drive to the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John store? And then I remembered the Marcos solution or maybe also the Casey solution, which is do that courier thing

⏹️ ▶️ John where you pay $10 and someone drives it to your house, like in an hour. Yep. So I did that. Apple had

⏹️ ▶️ John a six foot long Thunderbolt 2 cable, which I was worried they wouldn’t even have, but they did. I just ordered it on my phone

⏹️ ▶️ John and paid the extra nine bucks for them to courier it to my house. And someone came to my house with a Thunderbolt cable

⏹️ ▶️ John in a little tiny baggie. And then I plugged it into the computer, the back one computer with the little two

⏹️ ▶️ John to three adapter and then in the back of the iMac. And it noticed the connection was there. It speed tested it

⏹️ ▶️ John to like 800 megabytes per second, which is faster than one gigabit for people doing the math. And

⏹️ ▶️ John then it switched to it and it started to go way, way faster. So that was pretty cool. I was really impressed

⏹️ ▶️ John with what they’d done with Migration Assistant. Of course it successfully did the job, but every step of the way, it told

⏹️ ▶️ John me all the different ways that I could let it do what it was doing. And even in mid-flight, I could buy something and plug it in

⏹️ ▶️ John and let it finish the sort of second half of the migration much faster. And you know, the migration worked,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? So I booted up and started setting up all the things, deleting all the Intel-only apps,

⏹️ ▶️ John making sure I had M1 versions of everything, you know, transferring licenses to software

⏹️ ▶️ John from the iMac to that one, doing all the stuff, you know, transferring the Backblaze license over to that thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John inheriting backup state, got everything all ready to go. And part of the reason why

⏹️ ▶️ John I was deciding to do this migration and set up this thing, aside from just checking that the Mac Studio was what I expected

⏹️ ▶️ John and that it worked, was that I got a surprise email from Apple that said, hey, guess what, your studio display, remember we said June 22nd? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John actually it’s coming June 1st. Oh, that’s today. It was very exciting. Yeah, so it did come today

⏹️ ▶️ John and I did set it up. Oh wow. And so now I’ve got the whole system all configured. So,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I had the Mac Studio on the desk next to the 4K and that was for also for me to hear the fan noise. And the fan

⏹️ ▶️ John noise was amply represented on YouTube. It sounds in person like it does in those YouTube

⏹️ ▶️ John videos. It is a thing that you can hear. Mine did not have any of the sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of high-pitched terrible noises. It was just more of the, you know, that you hear in the videos

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was very quiet. My wife did not care about it at all. She’s like, I don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John about noises as much as you do. It’s, I don’t, whatever, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco care. Does anybody? Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John I did mess with the fan speed things. I have several fan control apps, some of which I already own from messing with fans

⏹️ ▶️ John on my Mac Pro and some of which I bought or tried trials of just to mess with this.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, just my Mac Studio, just like everyone else’s, is idling at like 1300 RPM, and the minimum speed is 1100.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the first thing I did was said, how quiet are the fans at 1100? Because you can just manually turn them to 1100

⏹️ ▶️ John or also in one of my apps, you can just set a bunch of rules that says, if this temperature sensor

⏹️ ▶️ John is, or the average of these temperature sensors is below this value, put the fans at this speed and

⏹️ ▶️ John make a bunch of, basically make your own fan curve, right? And so I did that and I made a curve such that

⏹️ ▶️ John they drop down to 1100 when the thing is idle. And

⏹️ ▶️ John this could be manufacturing variability. Again, we mentioned that multiple Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John studios can have different power supplies made by different companies, but on my Mac studio, if this

⏹️ ▶️ John was the only Mac studio I had ever seen, my theory would be they make the fans idle at 1300

⏹️ ▶️ John because at 1100, whatever way the electrical

⏹️ ▶️ John power is fed to the fans at 1100, it adds an extra little

⏹️ ▶️ John seasoning of high pitched wine to the fans. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yes, the

⏹️ ▶️ John fans get quieter that like you can hear them spin down, they get quieter,

⏹️ ▶️ John but there’s this high pitched whine that comes in. It’s almost like the electrical

⏹️ ▶️ John system does not want to feed electricity, whatever it needs, the amperage,

⏹️ ▶️ John the volts, whatever, to make them go to 1100 RPM. That introduces a high pitched whine. When they go up

⏹️ ▶️ John to 13, no more whine. Is the whine from the fans moving that slowly? Is the whine from the electronics in the fan?

⏹️ ▶️ John Is the whine from the power supply? I don’t know, but my particular Mac Studio at 1100

⏹️ ▶️ John sounds worse than at 1300 because that high pitch one comes in. That’s so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird. It’s just, the more we hear about the fan system on the Mac Studio,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the more of like a weird miss it seems to be because it, you know, when you look at the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M1 Macs and M1 Pro products, like all the laptops and everything, it just seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they didn’t need that level of noise for that enclosure and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that chip. And I don’t know what happened there, but it really seems like an odd miss

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and again, just like the people on YouTube, I don’t think I ever saw a temperature over 35 Celsius,

⏹️ ▶️ John which I have no idea what that is in real temperature, but all I know is that it’s low. It’s low for the insides of a computer.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like, you know, the highest temperature

⏹️ ▶️ John center was 35. And not that I was doing anything particularly big with it, although I was like running, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, downloading all my photos from iCloud and running a Backblaze backup, but it’s still like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the fans never, just like everyone else on YouTube, they idle at 1300 RPM and they just stay around 1300 RPM

⏹️ ▶️ John just forever, right? It does not get hot. So it’s not as if like, oh, this machine is so hot they painted themselves

⏹️ ▶️ John into a thermal, just the machine does not get hot doing normal things at all. And yet the fans,

⏹️ ▶️ John there they are at 1300 RPM doing their thing. And like I said, 1100 on my particular

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Studio is worse. Some people have, I’ve heard videos on YouTube of like, listen to the high pitch whine,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it wasn’t when they artificially dropped fan speed down it was just at other speeds it was doing that wine so anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John I I decided having it on a desk for like a day doing the migration and then a day setting out stuff I’m like

⏹️ ▶️ John hmm I think I’m gonna start this thing underneath like I’ve got this 3d printed

⏹️ ▶️ John purchased on Etsy cage for the Mac Studio that I talked about I did put a link to it in

⏹️ ▶️ John last week’s show notes so if you were looking for it just look for a last week’s show notes link to this Etsy thing

⏹️ ▶️ John it exactly fits the Mac Studio it’s meant to mount a Mac Studio to the the underside of a desk. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I figured, I’m not even gonna bother putting this on a desk. I know it will bother me a little bit. Let me

⏹️ ▶️ John just put it under. And also it’ll free up desk space for my wife’s desk because the iMac didn’t have another

⏹️ ▶️ John box that took up space, right? It just had this, you know, the screen. So preserving that sort of appearance

⏹️ ▶️ John for her. So I did put, well, two problems with this

⏹️ ▶️ John 3D printed thing. One, I’ve got a really big honking keyboard tray on this desk, and

⏹️ ▶️ John the space behind the keyboard tray where I would mount the Mac Studio,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s not enough space to do what the little sling wants

⏹️ ▶️ John you to do. They want you to slide the Mac Studio into it. Like so, you know, screw the thing to the underside of the desk.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like a little, you know, little shelf and then slide the Mac Studio in. I can’t do that because the desk,

⏹️ ▶️ John the back of the desk has a piece of wood across it, right? It’s got a hole for like cables to go through, but it’s got a piece of wood.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s not enough room for me to get the Mac Studio behind the thing and slide it in, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ John So I have to put the Mac Studio in the sling and then screw it to the top with

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Studio in there. And the only way to get it off would be to unscrew it because I can’t slide it out again, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So I used my experience watching car rebuilding channels and I don’t know what they would call it. Like lots

⏹️ ▶️ John of lifts have another little mini thing inside them that you can use to like press up against the transmission if you unbolt the

⏹️ ▶️ John transmission but you don’t want the transmission to fall down. You have to like, you know, use a hydraulic jack or lift it to

⏹️ ▶️ John press up

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco against it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ John I used a camera tripod with

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey no camera on it

⏹️ ▶️ John and I put it to the right height and then crank the neck up and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco press

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Studio up against the underside of the desk in its little thing after drilling

⏹️ ▶️ John pilot holes. And then, you know, screw the thing in, right? So the first problem was I had to do that whole weird

⏹️ ▶️ John procedure to jack the thing up and screw it in. Second problem is after I screwed it in and I’m looking at it and I’m going,

⏹️ ▶️ John hmm, I know nothing about 3D printing. I think this is like the second 3D printed object

⏹️ ▶️ John have ever touched in my life. The first being a really cool dog cow that somebody made.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I don’t know how sturdy the plastic resin

⏹️ ▶️ John scrap stuff is for 3D printing. And I’m looking at it and I’m going, this thing is held on by six screws.

⏹️ ▶️ John The screws are not going anywhere. They’re well screwed into the desk. They’re very secure, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But the plastic ears that they’re screwed into, I could totally see those just snapping off from

⏹️ ▶️ John fatigue. Right, I don’t know how durable that is or whatever. So now I feel like I have to

⏹️ ▶️ John add like sort of safety wires. Yeah, I’m gonna get like a security wire that’s holding my outdoor

⏹️ ▶️ John camera. I need to get like a length of like two lengths of metal wire to also kind of screw up to the desk. Say if the

⏹️ ▶️ John plastic cracks, at least the thing won’t fall to the ground and land on my dog who loves to lay down there,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? It’ll be caught by the security wire. So I do need to sort of reinforce that. But otherwise it’s bolted

⏹️ ▶️ John under the desk. It’s out of sight. You can still get to the SD card slot because it’s sort of like you reach into

⏹️ ▶️ John the keyboard tray and you can get to the front USB-C Thunderbolt ports

⏹️ ▶️ John and the back ones you’d have to crawl underneath, but I don’t have anything to plug into them yet. And it’s a good thing

⏹️ ▶️ John I bolted it where I did because I put it basically right dead center in the desk behind the keyboard tray because

⏹️ ▶️ John the monitor cable that comes with the Apple Studio Display is very short. If I had put it

⏹️ ▶️ John to the side, if I had put like the Mac Studio in the corner of it, I would not, I would have screwed it in. I would have been very sad because

⏹️ ▶️ John I wouldn’t be able to connect the display because the wires, how long is like three feet or something, Casey? You

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey mean something like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that? Yeah, it’s not, I wouldn’t describe it as very short, but I would by no means describe it as long,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey certainly not long.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, if you got it and you were saying, I’m gonna hook this up to my Mac Pro. No, you’re not, because your Mac Pro, there’s no way your Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro is that close to your monitor. It’s probably on the floor or to the side. It’s really short. It just,

⏹️ ▶️ John it fits fine with the thing underneath where it is because the hole that’s in the back of my desk is like right in the center as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I go from the monitor, behind the desk, through the hole, straight into the thing. Same thing with the power cord. It’s nice also, by the way,

⏹️ ▶️ John that the power cord is dead center on the Mac Studio, because that works out for me. Sorry, the cabling all worked out perfectly,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I did not expect the cable to be that short on the Mac Studio.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so yeah, under the desk, I can still hear it. I know it’s there, but it’s so quiet that

⏹️ ▶️ John you wouldn’t notice. I feel like even with under the desk, it is still noisier than a 2015 5K iMac at idle.

⏹️ ▶️ John Cause you know, 2015 5K iMac at idle, I can’t hear anything. 2015 5K iMac doing anything or loading Facebook

⏹️ ▶️ John in the tab? Yeah, that sounds like something, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John aircraft carrier or whatever, airplane taking off. But no, it’s pretty good where it

⏹️ ▶️ John is. As long as it stays up there, I think I’ll be happy with it. Apple Studio Display, my wife’s reacting when she

⏹️ ▶️ John saw it. It’s like, why is that so small? Because she’s used to the iMac with the giant bezels

⏹️ ▶️ John in the chin, right? I’m like, I swear to you, it is exactly the same size. We can get out of tape measure, it’s 27 inches.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it looks much smaller. Stand is nice. It doesn’t feel

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco quite as

⏹️ ▶️ John gritty as the XDR stand, but you know, and the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t rotate. Did you get the fancy stand or did you get the- Yeah, I got the fancy, the fancy height adjustable one I was trying to pick

⏹️ ▶️ John which I, to put it at. But that works well. Let’s see,

⏹️ ▶️ John the camera, worse than I thought. Like I saw all the videos, we

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco talked about it on the show. I was not

⏹️ ▶️ John prepared to how bad it would look. Like, I mean, part of it is what

⏹️ ▶️ John we see, you see photographs of it on Twitter that are recompressed and you see YouTube videos that

⏹️ ▶️ John are themselves compressed but seeing it in real life, boy, it just makes a

⏹️ ▶️ John complete mess out of my face. I look like I’m in an impressionist painting. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just so posterized, right? So just, I’m really bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John It almost makes me think that like, looking up at my fancy 4K Logitech

⏹️ ▶️ John magnetic snap-on thing, that there is a third-party opportunity for something similar to this product,

⏹️ ▶️ John something that magnetically attaches to the top of the studio display that has a tiny little USB-C cord

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s just long enough to reach down into one of the studio display’s USB-C ports. I would probably buy

⏹️ ▶️ John that product because boy, this camera is stinky. I mean, I was warned, but

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, we’ll just ignore it. Speakers sound good, monitor itself looks good. Although I do notice it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of weird that like, Casey, you’re looking at the monitor right now, so tell me if you notice this. From my normal

⏹️ ▶️ John sitting position, if I look at the bottom edge of the monitor, past where the pixels end, there’s like a little,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the little part of black, do you see a little bit of the silver case

⏹️ ▶️ John like kind of smiling at you on

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the edges?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, but it’s, I do have the light on, it’s throwback. I am in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my sleepy shirt, but the light is on. And even with my phone’s flash, I don’t know, but my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eyes are garbage. And I can’t say I’ve ever noticed that now. Not to say you’re wrong, I just, I have never

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey noticed.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s almost like you can see a hint of the silver surround, like there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a tiny, tiny silver rim around the whole display. Rather than, I look at the XDR, the black

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of covers everything and you can’t see any of the silver from normal viewing angles, but the studio display, you can see a little

⏹️ ▶️ John sliver of the silver, kind of around the whole display, but mostly notice it on the bottom, because of the angle

⏹️ ▶️ John that the thing is held. I don’t know, I’ll look at it more. It’s not distracting or anything. It’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John something I noticed that is different than the XDR. Let’s see what else about the studio,

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac studio setup. I’m annoyed by photos because, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t bother copying my photo library. I’m like, I’ll call it photos. I’ll just redownload it all. So I hook up the library,

⏹️ ▶️ John make it the system library. I can put it on the main SSD now, because it’s nice and big. I set it to download photos and it says, downloading 145,000

⏹️ ▶️ John photos, right? And that’s what it says for the next

⏹️ ▶️ John day or two. Downloading, the number never changes. There’s no indication of progress.

⏹️ ▶️ John No

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco indication

⏹️ ▶️ John that it is making any progress. There I am, an activity monitor, looking at the network

⏹️ ▶️ John packets going by, saying, is it doing anything?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Is it downloading anything? Is something happening?

⏹️ ▶️ John Is this ever gonna finish? So I don’t know, I’ll let you know in a week or two. I mean, it’s like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like a terabyte of photos, so it’s not gonna happen overnight. But I wish I knew if it was

⏹️ ▶️ John working at all, And if it was, I wish I could make it go faster, more terrible interface

⏹️ ▶️ John from photos. But yeah, other than that, everything seems to work well. As far as my wife’s concerned, she

⏹️ ▶️ John went away and came back and she has a different looking computer, but all her same stuff is on it. And it’s a million

⏹️ ▶️ John times faster than it was, but she doesn’t care about that for the most part. I guess it’s quieter now because she can open more tabs

⏹️ ▶️ John on sites that have terrible ads that used to cause her 5K iMacs fans to spin

⏹️ ▶️ John up until the thing looked like it was gonna take off from the desk and now it will just quietly sit there grinding the

⏹️ ▶️ John CPU with those terrible ads. But other than that, I give it a,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, my hopes are that this is gonna be her computer for the next, you know, seven or eight years, 10

⏹️ ▶️ John years. You know, 2015 iMac lasted her into 2022. So that’s a pretty good run. I hope this will last just as long because I don’t see why it shouldn’t. She’s

⏹️ ▶️ John happy with this setup. She likes a keyboard and a mouse. She likes a 27 inch 5K monitor with speakers built

⏹️ ▶️ John in and a camera. She doesn’t care that much about the camera being crappy, but it is.

⏹️ ▶️ John As long as that little thing stuck to the underside of the desk doesn’t get any noisier

⏹️ ▶️ John over time and stay stuck to the underside of the desk. Uh, I think it’ll be fine. I’ve got plenty of room to grow.

⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t even filled any of the Thunderbolt ports. Um, got it. She’s got a big USB hub on the

⏹️ ▶️ John desk and she’s got the USB C Thunder slash Thunderbolt ports all waiting to receive

⏹️ ▶️ John fancier backup disks and all sorts of other stuff. So thumbs up so far.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am glad that both of you are happy. I can’t believe that you’re not complaining

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about the fan being in the same room that you occupy.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, Marco can tell me if he hears on the microphone. I can’t with my headphones on. I can hear my Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is a few feet away from me, but I can’t hear with my headphones on the thing way back

⏹️ ▶️ John there.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco When

⏹️ ▶️ John I sit in front of her computer, I can hear it, but just barely.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I mean, and I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem for podcasting. It would have to be a pretty loud fan for that that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you would have other problems with. But no, I’m just, I’m surprised, like, again, it seems odd

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me that both the Max Studio and the Studio Display both have weird,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seemingly unnecessary flaws. You know, the Studio Display has its really terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco camera that somehow happened, and the Max Studio has this really odd, you know, fan

⏹️ ▶️ Marco noise situation that seems unnecessary. I’m just, I’m surprised at both

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of these products that, you know, we were very excited about them when they were announced, because like spec wise they seem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great and they fill important roles in the lineup. And when you look at Apple’s other recent launches,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve been basically flawless. You know, the MacBook Pros, basically flawless.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Before that, the M1 series, the M1 iMac, the M1 MacBook Air, and the 13-inch weird MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro that shouldn’t quite be a Pro, the little Mac Mini with the M1, all of those products,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically perfect. So it’s just it’s odd to have these two you know sort

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of flagship products Have these these really weird downsides that that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem totally avoidable But I don’t know. I don’t know what happened there, but you know hopefully You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know we’ll see with the Mac Pro when that ever comes. We’ll kind of see how the story rounds itself out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also think we are still kind of missing the M1 Pro based Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mini which seems like it should exist and yet doesn’t And maybe that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would answer some of the questions and close some of these gaps, I don’t know. But we’ll see how the story closes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, but this seems like an odd place for it to be in right now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like if the Mac Studio was as quiet as the M1 Mac Mini, and obviously there’s just more stuff in

⏹️ ▶️ John there. If you compare the size of the M1s and the M1 Mac Mini, it’s so much smaller than the

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro or the Ultra that’s in this thing, so I get it. But if it was that quiet, I would

⏹️ ▶️ John have a lot more fun is for its very small form factor. and as it stands now, it’s great

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s small so I can shove it underneath my desk, but if it was 50% bigger, but also silent, I

⏹️ ▶️ John would just put it on the desk, right? So it’s kind of like the only reason I’m glad that this is small and

⏹️ ▶️ John I can smuggle it on a desk is because I want to get that fan as far away from me as possible. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not clear to me what, that they needed this much sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John heat removal stuff and that they had to wedge it in there with two small diameter high-speed fans rather than one

⏹️ ▶️ John much more lazy large diameter fan. And if they had just done it like a chimney with cold air in the bottom, hot air on the top of the large

⏹️ ▶️ John diameter fan instead, like they could have made a lot of different choices, but it seemed like some stuff was sacrificed

⏹️ ▶️ John on the altar of making it look like a big Mac mini, which is air in the bottom, hot air, cool air in the bottom,

⏹️ ▶️ John hot air at the back.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but like what, like you can get that exact same chip, not the Ultra, I know, but like you can get the Macs, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exact same chip in the 13 inch MacBook Pro and it’s silent. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s so, that’s why it’s so odd to me. But the reality is, I’m not,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very selfishly, I’m not upset too much about this because I don’t want that computer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, maybe it is the power supply, as we were talking about before. Like, you know, there’s DC voltage coming

⏹️ ▶️ John from the batteries inside a MacBook Pro, right? So there’s no power supply circuitry to turn AC into DC

⏹️ ▶️ John and all that stuff. Maybe, is that the big difference? Is it just the giant analog circuit board and the associated

⏹️ ▶️ John analog noise and additional heat? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but my MacBook Pro is powered by a very small, fanless,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco silent little white power brick too. So that doesn’t seem to be the only difference either.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s external, that can radiate heat out into the room and the tower works may not be sound.

⏹️ ▶️ John When I was hooking stuff up, I was hooking up a USB hub just to have old USB three hub to just put

⏹️ ▶️ John lightning cables and crap on so it’s on the desk, right? And I was gonna hook that up and I took my wife’s one off and like,

⏹️ ▶️ John ah, this one looks kind of cruddy and dusty. let me go get a newer one that I had in the attic. So I go up to the attic

⏹️ ▶️ John and bring down the newer one. And I’m like, oh, I don’t need to, I should use all new stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I took out the old one entirely, took out the cable, the USB hub, and of course the external brick thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that they all come with, right? And I get the brand new stuff and I hook it all up and I’m crawling onto the desk, connecting it together.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I plug in the brick into the UPS because

⏹️ ▶️ John the USB from the UPS also runs through this so I don’t want it to go out when power goes out because that’s how the Mac knows to shut

⏹️ ▶️ John down. Anyway, and when I did that, I started to hear this like

⏹️ ▶️ John buzzing, ticking noise from inside the power brick, which I just recognized as like

⏹️ ▶️ John analog electronic noise, like some, you know, coil of wire in there

⏹️ ▶️ John is doing something or whatever, and I unplug it from the UPS, and

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s still making the noise because some capacitor in there was slowly discharging or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I gave it

⏹️ ▶️ John to my wife, hold this to your ear. I’m like, hey, hold the brick. It was making noise. So even like that little external

⏹️ ▶️ John power brick, you’re like, oh, I have this white little power brick or whatever. It’s possible to screw that up too if you just have a cheap type

⏹️ ▶️ John power brick. Anything can make, I hate analog electronics. I wish everything was digital. I know that’s not the world we live in, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you need the analog electronics to power the digital things, but things like a power brick,

⏹️ ▶️ John they can have problems too. And if that little ticking annoying thing was inside a computer, it would just,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, drive you mad because it’s like, what is that noise? What is that doing that? Anyway, the short version

⏹️ ▶️ John is I just swapped back for the previous PowerBrick, which was exactly the same for the

⏹️ ▶️ John previous USB hub, but this one didn’t make any noise when I plugged it in. So, analog electronics, man,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just nothing but trouble.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so far, desktop laptop seems to be winning again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John if your white PowerBrick was making noise, you probably wouldn’t hear it when it’s on the floor. But I was crawling around, like, with my ear practically touching

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing. I was like, no, it doesn’t sound healthy to me. I need to get the one that doesn’t make this noise.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and also another benefit to the laptop lifestyle is things are more modular. If that white power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco brick starts making noise, I can just replace it. You can’t quite easily do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the power supply inside your desktop.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s what Apple cares for. Hopefully I don’t ever have to use it.

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WWDC hopes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now we have finally gotten to the time that we should talk WWDC. And it is this coming Monday

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as we record. It is just a few days away as we record on Wednesday night. It is this coming Monday.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We should talk about our hopes, our predictions. And I had a lead off question that I’d like to ask

⏹️ ▶️ Casey both of you. And let’s start with Marco. Why is it in person at all this year?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why is this year different from other years? Is it for the big splash reveal for like a Mac pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God help me or AR glasses, or do they just want to dip their toe in the water? Like what do you think the reason

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is for in-person?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think Apple likes in-person events a lot. You know, I think they, they do the remote events,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, during COVID because they had to, and I think they want to get back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to having in-person events for press and things like NWBC as soon as they can reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and responsibly. And it’s certainly up for debate whether this counts as that time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or not. But, you know, setting that aside, I think they love the in-person events. In-person

⏹️ ▶️ Marco events, when you have a big launch like this, or, you know, whether it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something super significant like a new platform, like an AR headset, or whether it’s just the year of software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco updates, you know, that’s also a big deal to them and to us. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I don’t think it needs to be a major, you know, hardware or platform release

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year for them to want an in-person event and for an in-person event to be really cool and fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s interesting that we have this kind of hybrid where like the keynote is almost certainly pre-recorded

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so the the keynote watching is going to be like you know basically a movie and watching

⏹️ ▶️ Marco projected on a screen and we’re just watching a movie that that’s kind of interesting but I do think they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to have in-person events I also I also think the more little bits and pieces we pick up and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of trickle out, the more it seems like this is also the launch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco party for the developer center. And they clearly want to show that off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to officially open it up and officially announce what it is, what it’s supposed to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do, you know, long term. And they want to have a big party to open up their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new developer center. I think that’s what this is. And from the little bits and pieces we’ve heard where it seems like it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be kind of a permanent home for developer relations and some kind of labs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sort of things and maybe they could bring in developers at certain times for you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco access to certain you know early hardware or software whatever the case may be it seems like this is going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big thing for them going forward and they want to unveil this all to us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at one big party here is the new developer center enjoy here’s what it’s for so I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all that kind of goes into play for this particular year’s event. That being said, it wouldn’t surprise me if this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is also a test balloon of sorts to see if all future

⏹️ ▶️ Marco WWDCs might be done this way. Because we’ve talked at length

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the time about all the different downsides of trying to wedge this conference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into a city with a large convention center and getting everyone into all the hotels and everything’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so expensive for everyone. And even if you fit five or six thousand people in the convention center, you still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are excluding thousands of other people who want to come, but either

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t afford to or can’t get a ticket or, you know, can’t get there, whatever, whatever the case may be.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I think it’s clear over the last, even before COVID, over the last few years that WBDC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably should change in a way to make it even more and more inclusive and more and more accessible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to more people. And they certainly did their best with an in-person conference with having live stream

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sessions and all the recordings going up super fast, and all the transcripts and all that stuff. You know, they really amped a lot of that up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over those last few years of being in person, but none of that compared to what they were able to do since

⏹️ ▶️ Marco COVID with having it be full time remote with just huge, hugely more accessible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco content, because it had to be finally making labs accessible remotely, you know, all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that stuff that they that they added. And I think this might be their vision of how it goes forward now that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can have in in person events. And now that they have this new developer center that seems to,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, probably have a capacity in the hundreds rather than in the thousands,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at most possibly, you know, I would bet it’s in the low hundreds. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe maybe this is part of their vision of like, rather than having that big event, they pretty much produce

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole conference as if it’s remote every time, and it’s mostly remote, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has this small in person component that is partly for press and partly for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain groups of developers they want to have out there. You know, students, maybe scholarship winners,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, certain feature developers, certain newcomers, things like that. So that that’s, I think, why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re doing it. And I think this is probably going to be the path forward.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It would greatly surprise me if we ever had another WVDC in San

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Jose or San Francisco.

⏹️ ▶️ John It reminds me a little bit of press trunkets for car reviews. So

⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC is run, it’s a developer conference. So Apple has a developer relations

⏹️ ▶️ John department or whatever they call it. It’s people’s job it is to interface with developers. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of overlap between that, like developer relations and marketing. You

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t wanna call it marketing, but it is a form of marketing because you want people to develop for your platform. You want

⏹️ ▶️ John to convince them to develop for your platform. You wanna show them how cool your platform is, how successful they can

⏹️ ▶️ John be on your platform. You wanna support them. That’s what developer relations is. It is very much

⏹️ ▶️ John a marketing type of position. And when you’re doing any kind of marketing, like a car company that wants you to tell you about here’s the new

⏹️ ▶️ John Corvette or whatever, having people in person is really important because that’s just the way

⏹️ ▶️ John people work. You’ll bring them to a beautiful place, you’ll show them your car,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll let a famous F1 driver drive them around a track in your car, you’ll let them

⏹️ ▶️ John run a drag strip. You’ll do all this stuff because you want to give these human being

⏹️ ▶️ John journalists, press, whatever, a positive experience, and for them to associate that positive experience

⏹️ ▶️ John with your car, and then hopefully go back and write something nice about your car. Now, it’s not like any

⏹️ ▶️ John decent car journalist is gonna say, well, they brought me to a beautiful place in Italy, therefore I’m gonna say this car is great, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But humans being humans, there is some small amount of the positive

⏹️ ▶️ John experience you had that will influence, even if unconsciously, what you write about it. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John it is smart if you’re doing something related to marketing to get people in person. It is

⏹️ ▶️ John easier to impress upon them that your product is good,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can explain to them in person, you can answer their questions there, and you can give them a positive experience. Way

⏹️ ▶️ John easier to do that in person than remote, right? So I think anyone involved

⏹️ ▶️ John in any marketing position for any product in any company always wants to get, particularly the press,

⏹️ ▶️ John but even also just in this case, developers, like actual people, get them to where you can

⏹️ ▶️ John control their experience, get them to come to your beautiful campus so that you can plan a day for

⏹️ ▶️ John them. Look at the menu we just read, look at all the fun activities they’re gonna have, you get a tour of the fitness center, everyone’s gonna be nice and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just gonna be sunny and beautiful, it’s California, right? That is super important. That is

⏹️ ▶️ John never gonna go away. And so I feel like, you would say, oh, they’ll just have in-person

⏹️ ▶️ John for press, right? But for developer relations, they want, granted, a tiny subset, but they

⏹️ ▶️ John want developers to also have that experience. They want someone to say, oh, I won the lottery for WWC

⏹️ ▶️ John to come in person and I had such a great time and I met some fun people and I did cool things and

⏹️ ▶️ John I learned a lot and I got to eat good food. That will make them feel good about developing

⏹️ ▶️ John for the Apple platforms or make them feel better than they did before. Make them feel better than the people who

⏹️ ▶️ John just had to watch it sitting at home, right? So, and you know, and you ramped it

⏹️ ▶️ John all up. It’s like, well, that’s why WWC kept getting bigger. They made it as big as they possibly could without turning it

⏹️ ▶️ John into like Oracle world or whatever, right? They didn’t make it 20,000 people, but they didn’t keep

⏹️ ▶️ John it at like one or 200. They could have, they went all the way up to like what? 5,500 or whatever, it’s kind of where

⏹️ ▶️ John WWC maxed out and they didn’t wanna make it any bigger than that. They could have made it bigger, they could afford to make it bigger, they could have gone to bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John venues, but they wanted to get as many developers as there as possible without totally destroying the conference because

⏹️ ▶️ John every developer that is there that still has a good time, if they can provide a good experience to those developers,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a developer relations. They want developers to feel good about the Apple platform. So I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t think it’s just gonna be press in person. Yes, of course, they want the press to be in person and they have a whole separate experience for

⏹️ ▶️ John them. They also want some developers to be in person and they want it to feel special

⏹️ ▶️ John for them. And I feel like a, obviously a smaller in-person presence, whether it’s COVID related or

⏹️ ▶️ John whether like Margo said, like they’ll just keep it small. You’re gonna feel even more special if you’re one of like 300

⏹️ ▶️ John versus being one of 5,500, whatever. So I think there’ll always be an in-person

⏹️ ▶️ John component they’re able to do it. I don’t know if they’re going to ramp back up to 5000. It really depends on

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s making the calls that I know there are probably people who ran WWDC for years, who if they had

⏹️ ▶️ John the choice would want to go back to 5000 people if they could, you know, COVID allowing

⏹️ ▶️ John some point in the future, right. But there might be some people who who say, let’s keep

⏹️ ▶️ John it around 300. And we’ll just cycle through those 300. I think it’s tougher now, because there are so many more developers than

⏹️ ▶️ John there used to be, right, WC more or less maxed out. But the number of developers and our platforms just kept

⏹️ ▶️ John increasing and increasing with the iOS and the iPhone and everything. It’s just, it’s huge. Now. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John almost like the difference between 5,300 is like a is nothing. It’s you know, percentage wise, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John the third decimal point or something. And it really just been to first approximation, nobody gets to go to WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you consider they have how many millions of developers or how many millions of developer account.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it could be they keep it small and they say percentage wise, we’re pretty much the same percentage, you didn’t have a chance and you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have a chance now, but the people who do come, they’re gonna have a good experience. We’re gonna make sure we have a good experience.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe they’ll always continue to have it at Apple Park, because that’s an environment that they totally control and they don’t have to rent out, and they don’t have to pay for

⏹️ ▶️ John box lunches. So, there’s that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey BOTH LAUGH I don’t know. I ask the question because I don’t think, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now we’re getting into predictions and whatnot, I don’t think we’re seeing any real, like, AR Glass

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of announcement or release or anything like that. I don’t even think,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in all likelihood, that we’re going to get anything that’s a strong indicator or like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey teaser or anything like that. But nevertheless, if they were

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do some new thing like AR glasses, I can absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see them saying, come hell or high water, we’re going to have people in person to do it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because we want to hear the cheers. We want to, we want to hear people go nuts. And,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so I don’t think it’s going to happen, but it, it is an easy thing thing for me to imagine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that that that is why they want to do something in person. But I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know if that’s realistic. I don’t think it is. So So what do we want?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, before you move on to the AR thing, right? So if you think about hardware,

⏹️ ▶️ John things that they’ve introduced, WWC, they tend not to want to let the people who are attending WWC

⏹️ ▶️ John really get near them. Think of the iMac Pro, think of the Mac Pro. They were there

⏹️ ▶️ John and they were announced. And you could see them, but you weren’t even allowed to touch the iMac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the Mac Pro, they had people demoing them for you, but they didn’t really want you to use them. It’s, you know, so the idea that they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to, you know, if they were going to introduce AR glasses, it’s like, we want to have people there. So if you’re picturing

⏹️ ▶️ John people there, like, oh, I’m going to wait in the line and I’m going to strap this thing in my head and I’m going to try it out. That doesn’t seem like

⏹️ ▶️ John a very Apple thing to do. But on the other hand, if they don’t do that, it’s not like you can have someone wearing the

⏹️ ▶️ John headset and, you know, waving things around and then you get to look on a screen to see what they see. That doesn’t give you

⏹️ ▶️ John the experience either. have to actually put it on your head, but I don’t think Apple would want you to put it on your head and if they did want you to put

⏹️ ▶️ John it on your head, they’d be much more likely to do that with a group of a couple hundred people. And that

⏹️ ▶️ John brings up another question about this, by the way. Does anyone know how many people have

⏹️ ▶️ John been invited to go to, not press, but how many regular people have been invited to go to Apple Bar?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not at all. No, I don’t think that information has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John come out at all. Maybe it’s 5,500

⏹️ ▶️ John people. I don’t know, like we’re talking about this as if it’s gonna be a few hundred.

⏹️ ▶️ John How many people can fit in Cafe Max? How many people are in the ring building? It’s really a mystery. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if you, you could ask all your friends and maybe do an estimate and say, you know, random sampling,

⏹️ ▶️ John how many people tried to apply and how many people got in, but it’s, it’s difficult because it’s not actually random if you’re just asking your

⏹️ ▶️ John friends. You know, it depends on what circuit you’re driving. Like Paul Hudson, for example, I think didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John get in until someone at Apple got a clue and said, you should invite Paul Hudson, what are you doing? And he got

⏹️ ▶️ John invited. So yeah, it’s a lot of questions about this, But

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the in-person thing is entirely to do with that you must have people in person

⏹️ ▶️ John if you want to do effective marketing to either developers or press. And it has nothing to do with what

⏹️ ▶️ John is or isn’t going to be announced.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right. So what do we want? What do we want? What do we expect? How do you want to skin this cat?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, every WWDC, in recent memory, there’s a new version of iOS, a

⏹️ ▶️ John new version of macOS, and also a new version of iPadOS, and maybe a new OS. I

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t even put tvOS on this list.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I guess it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John tvOS

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and then

⏹️ ▶️ John RealityOS. Did I miss an OS? We got tvOS, RealityOS, is there another one?

⏹️ ▶️ John AudioOS? WatchOS? WatchOS, there’s another one. WatchOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, there are new versions of the major operating systems and every once in a while there’s a new operating

⏹️ ▶️ John system like RealityOS if they do the AR thing or whatever. I hope they don’t call it ROS. I think the code

⏹️ ▶️ John names and all the code is that it’s RealityOS. But anyway, what do we want from like, let’s start with

⏹️ ▶️ John the big one. What do we want from a new iOS, from a new Mac OS? Like, do we have anything that we really

⏹️ ▶️ John want out of any of these OSs, or is it just more like, well, whatever they give us will be nice, don’t screw it up, and

⏹️ ▶️ John fix all the bugs?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That. I think for iOS, something I have been fiddling with a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit more recently is shortcuts, both on iOS and iPadOS. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I like to create shortcuts to control kind of system

⏹️ ▶️ Casey level things or things in the house. So a couple of the examples of this is I’ve been dabbling with tail

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scale recently, which is very, very interesting. And maybe we can talk about that another time, but I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey been dabbling with it and I wanted to control tail scale a little bit more and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey control VPN settings on the phone a little bit more because tail scale is sort of, but not really a VPN

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and there’s no real good hook in shortcuts to control VPN settings. And additionally,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wanted to, I, you know, I’ve been doing a lot of Apple fitness plus workouts recently has been talked about a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey recently. And I have a shortcut that when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I stop exercising, then it will automatically turn the ceiling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fan in the living room off if it’s not hot outside, which is pretty slick. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also wanted to be able to say, okay, well, when I start a workout and you see that the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV is on and playing Apple Fitness, then go ahead and turn the fan on. But there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no way to do that. Like there’s no way to query what the state of the Apple TV is or not and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not any good way of doing it Anyhow, and so I feel like more robust hooks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for shortcuts would be really really cool And I can’t believe I’m saying that because I mean I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey used shortcuts since it came out and since it was workflow even but I’m not I’m not a particularly Robust

⏹️ ▶️ Casey user of it, but I’ve been getting into it a lot more recently and I found it really is quite powerful If you want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it to be but I wish it could get its tentacles into more places And similarly,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey similar idea, widgets. I like widgets, I use them on both iPad and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my phone as well, but I do wish that they were even just marginally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey interactive. And on certain size widgets, you can have like a couple of touch targets or something like that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wish they could be updated more frequently and not by magic, but by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the widget being asked if it wants to update or perhaps being told to update. And I haven’t looked at how the widget system works

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a while. Marco, you have more insight onto this, but I wish they were a little more interactive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a little more robust. And I think that both of those would be really cool. I’m sure there’s other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things I’m not thinking of. I mean, bug fixes, reliability, et cetera, but recently just, this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a complete recency bias, but recently those are a couple of things that have ground my gears. I don’t know, Marco, what are you looking for in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What I want most from iOS is just more maturation of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frameworks and the tools. And the good thing is that’s almost always what happens. So I think I’m very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco likely to get that. You know, like widgets, the widget system is actually pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, some of the rumors are that we might be able to get them onto the lock screen on the phone and that would be great. I’ve wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of additional customization of the iPhone lock screen for a while now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Any kind of widget advancements to make them potentially slightly interactive would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very nice. That being said, based on the way they work, I actually don’t expect that to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happen. Same,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because they seem like they just want to be like these serialized pre-rendered Swift UI views

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to have any kind of, like when your widget’s showing on screen, none of your code

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is running. Like the OS is basically showing the timeline of views that you have given

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, but the reason why widgets don’t have active buttons and things in them is that your code

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not running when those are on screen necessarily. And I think that side of how they’re implemented

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future so that I’m not expecting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interactive widgets really. But you know, maybe, you know, certain certain ways to make them a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more lively, you know, certain advances in things like the timeline views, maybe some ability to use some basic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco animations, like in a controllable way, that that kind of stuff could be nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But for the most part in iOS, what I want is, you know, make Xcode better,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make SwiftUI better. Right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey now,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using SwiftUI on iOS is still a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frustrating rollercoaster. When you’re on the happy path and you’re doing things the way they do it on the conference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slides, it works great. And the second it touches the real world, you just slam

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into walls everywhere and it’s It’s very difficult to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use SwiftUI in the real world without hitting major problems that require

⏹️ ▶️ Marco huge amounts of deep dives and hacks and workarounds and googling and everything else that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a very frustrating time waste and often requires you to rip out parts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of SwiftUI and rewrite stuff in UIKit. This framework is now a couple years old. It’s still very, very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco young. Please make SwiftUI significantly better. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I hope they will. that’s pretty much it for me for iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’d like to build though on what you said about SwiftUI because I have had a pretty decent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey experience all told with SwiftUI, almost the entirety of Masquerade is SwiftUI and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it has caused me to relearn a lot of things and to think of things differently. By and large, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is pretty good. But SwiftUI smells so deeply to me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it is being dog fooded some more than watch kit was. Sorry, trigger warning, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it doesn’t seem like it’s being properly dog fooded, but dog, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Dog fed?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dog fed. I’m not sure where to go from here, but you know what I’m saying? I feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a lot more dog fooding would go a long way. And it really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seems like SwiftUI is one of those things where as an academic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey adventure, it is interesting and fairly robust. But as soon as you try to do real

⏹️ ▶️ Casey world things with it, it starts to fall down, just like you were saying, it starts to fall down relatively

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quickly and relatively spectacularly. Again, I say that, and I’m being a little hyperbolic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because Masquerade is SwiftUI and it does work and I did have to jump through hoops, but it wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey completely egregious, but it was way more than I should have for a framework that’s already a couple of years old.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I could not agree more that I want to see like a deep concentration on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey SwiftUI. And I want to have them tell us, like, I think they made it public,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, that the weather app rewrite was SwiftUI. What they didn’t make public

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and what we have heard through the grapevine is that it was a freaking mess. Like, frame rates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey were garbage and they had to do a bunch of fixes specifically to make the weather app work better. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one way or another, I think a lot more dogfooding on SwiftUI would be really, really healthy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and help us do our jobs better. And so often with Apple, they’ll throw something across the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fence and say, here, this is good enough, right? Just be thankful for it and buzz off. And in reality,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just not. And so I really, really, really hope that the State of the Union is basically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here’s all the ways that we’ve made SwiftUI better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, because SwiftUI, I mean, there are just so many very large shortcomings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and frustrations with it in use right now. Like, yeah, we need significant improvements in the API

⏹️ ▶️ Marco front. We need a ton of bug fixes. We need tons of new ways we can control behaviors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and appearances. We need major advances in the tooling side of it. You know, SwiftUI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now has, you know, it not only does it crush your machine performance wise,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but when when things go wrong, you get these really terrible error messages and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or error behaviors that are inscrutable and almost none of its documents

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and almost none of its discoverable the process of like, so you have a SwiftUI view,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which you know, you have all this like dot chaining going on to do pretty much everything. How do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know what dot chain you can apply where? Well, the correct thing is for the tooling to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco assist you with various autocomplete things and good documentation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the reality is the tooling breaks constantly and doesn’t really help you very much and and documentation is almost non-existent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and very kind of abstract. There’s not really like examples anywhere and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s, everything’s very abstract and hard to know like what to look for. So the answer really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is you have to Google everything. Like everything. And the Google results you get are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not Apple’s documentation because it mostly doesn’t exist, it isn’t helpful. What you’re actually getting is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco various, you know, Swift by Sundell posts and stuff like that because everyone is asking these questions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they’re so incredibly non-obvious when you’re in the coding environment and in Apple’s documentation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything. So you have to go to blog posts and Stack Overflow and everything because it’s just, it’s so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it makes no sense. It’s not discoverable at all. Like, in the same way that like, I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these dot chaining operators in SwiftUI, they have like the discoverability problem of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco swipe gestures and pinch gestures in touch screen interfaces. It’s like, how do you do this thing? Oh, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just type in, you know, dot accessibility modifier, whatever. And it’s like, okay, but how would I have ever known that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you didn’t tell me? Because that’s visible nowhere. And it’s all for the same goal of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, we have these, these pretty code samples that are that look so simple. They’re so visually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco simple. And he’s just like, you know, tuxedo eyes are they’re super minimal and all gestural are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so simple looking and clean, right? But then, okay, well, how do I use it? Oh, you got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Google for it. I really, and I think a lot of that is just inherent to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both what’s currently in fashion and software development, and also the design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of SwiftUI in general. And so I don’t expect that to change at a deep level, which is unfortunate because it needs to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But at least within the bounds of what they are likely to do, I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hope for at least some slight improvement in those areas. But that being said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that even that even hoping for slight improvement, given, you know, reality,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s a tall order. So my more realistic expectation is at least give

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me more dot modifiers and crap that I’ll have to Google that will allow me to do the behaviors I need to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my apps that will avoid me having to dive into UI kit.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is around the Swift UI corner here. I think it’s something I’ve been doing about I almost wrote something about it, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t feel like I could nail it down to the point where I could write something but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John had nailed down to the point where I can blabber about it on a podcast. You mentioned like the dot chaining

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything like that. But SwiftUI isn’t just syntactic sugar for

⏹️ ▶️ John the normal things that you would do in UIKit. Its whole point is that it’s declarative instead of imperative. You describe

⏹️ ▶️ John the way things are rather than saying, if this happens, then do that or whatever. And

⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes when you parachute someone who’s used to messing with UIKit into that environment, they sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John recreate imperative programming by sprinkling state on top of their SwiftUI views and adding conditionals

⏹️ ▶️ John inside them and basically doing imperative programming in a declarative way. It’s like, look, I have if, it’s the same thing. And now

⏹️ ▶️ John all I just got to do is make sure the right state gets sprinkled down to the right places. And it’s just like I’m writing imperative code, but you’re not.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s trying to be declarative. And you end up making the structure that gets fed to this larger thing. And that’s not just

⏹️ ▶️ John fashion. Like, there is a point to that. They emphasized this in the first round of SwiftUI, things like that

⏹️ ▶️ John the machinery that runs your declarative thing, the fact that you don’t have to write the machinery, the fact that you can’t write the machinery,

⏹️ ▶️ John has advantages in terms of fewer bugs. because you’re just essentially creating a structure,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then the machine, assuming the machine is relatively bug-free, runs your structure, and you don’t have to worry about maintaining state

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything, it all happens automatically, and then they can compress all your views into one thing for efficiency purposes. And there are

⏹️ ▶️ John advantages, it’s not just, oh, declarative’s in style, let’s do that. There are technical advantages to it, which they touted heavily.

⏹️ ▶️ John Those advantages are real, but of course, what you just all discussed is, okay, but there are also disadvantages.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And when I look at the

⏹️ ▶️ John disadvantages, what SwiftUI looks like to me is another declarative

⏹️ ▶️ John style technology that I have a lot of experience with that lots of people would describe exactly the same way Marco

⏹️ ▶️ John just described SwiftUI, which is, I can’t figure out how to do what I want,

⏹️ ▶️ John the documentation is not useful for me, there aren’t enough examples, and anytime I wanna do anything, I have

⏹️ ▶️ John to Google. And the name of that technology is, chat room, anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco seven seconds away,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll take too long? CSS,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s right,

⏹️ ▶️ John cascading style sheets.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So here’s the question about- No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CSS has way better documentation down there with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John SwiftUI. I think that’s a low bar. CSS1

⏹️ ▶️ John came out in 1996, so it’s a little bit older than SwiftUI. So here’s the question about SwiftUI,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? So it could be, two possible things could be here, right? CSS today now is

⏹️ ▶️ John amazing, but still people need to Google for how to center stuff vertically or whatever. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John will, so SwiftUI, some people look at it and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John no declarative UI description system is ever going to be sufficient to write

⏹️ ▶️ John a full featured application. Because inevitably in any good application, there’s some point where you want to do some weird ass thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that you have no way to declare. Right, to Margo’s point, there’s not a dot modifier for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you need to basically say, from this piece of code, when this things happen, I’m gonna run

⏹️ ▶️ John some regular old style imperative code to reach all over there and do a thing, right? Because I just

⏹️ ▶️ John need to do that. And the designers didn’t think of it, but I need to do it. And if your framework is imperative,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s real easy to add three more lines of your own code, override a handler, do an extra thing. Like that fits right in the system.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s how the whole system works. You get to write your own code and your code looks a lot like

⏹️ ▶️ John the framework code. It’s just you overrode it and called super, right? But in a declarative system,

⏹️ ▶️ John yes, you can write your own declarative things, but it’s way weirder. And sometimes you can’t get to the machinery you wanna get at.

⏹️ ▶️ John So some people would say, SwiftUI is never going to go all the way. You’re never gonna get a top to

⏹️ ▶️ John bottom SwiftUI app like they’re trying to make. You’re always gonna need some imperative code or some way to get at the engine or some way to

⏹️ ▶️ John extend the engine. That’s the way Swift UI needs to evolve, right? Or that it’ll never be

⏹️ ▶️ John good enough for a whole system because declarative is really good for making views and it has some lots of advantages, but it’s never

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna be the whole app. But the other possibility, and both of these things can be true at the same time,

⏹️ ▶️ John is CSS for the longest time frustrated people to hell because you

⏹️ ▶️ John could do a lot of stuff, but you would never think of the way you had to do it. Like vertical

⏹️ ▶️ John horizontal centering of elements, making things equal width, but not much wider than this. And

⏹️ ▶️ John there was a long period of time when there are ways to do that in CSS that was like wizardry that made no freaking sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John But then they had like min width and max width. Wow, that made everything a lot easier, didn’t it? These

⏹️ ▶️ John hacks are neat, right? But still, lots of stuff was hard, right? You know, and again, 1996, CSS1 spec or whatever year that

⏹️ ▶️ John was, right? It took a long time to get to where we are now. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John what is the Swift UI equivalent of Flexbox to give just one example? If you don’t know all these CSS terms,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe this is not landing for you, but if you are a web developer, think of how much harder it was to do the things that Flexbox

⏹️ ▶️ John does before Flexbox. What is the equivalent of Flexbox in

⏹️ ▶️ John SwiftUI? What’s the equivalent of box sizing border box in SwiftUI? What’s the equivalent of min and

⏹️ ▶️ John max width in SwiftUI? Now, granted, it doesn’t matter one among the SwiftUI has a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ John things that CSS didn’t have for years and years, but there are absolutely situations in SwiftUI that remind

⏹️ ▶️ John me totally of how hard it was to do crap in CSS before quote unquote modern CSS,

⏹️ ▶️ John or if you couldn’t rely on Flexbox being present. Like I’m at the point now where I will just, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m doing like the ATP store page. Like I refuse to do it the old fashioned way to support some old browsers.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sorry if our store page looks crappy to you, but you know, most modern browsers actually do support Flexbox. So I use it,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And it makes everything so much easier than it was before. I know how to do it the old way, but it’s a headache.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s where I feel like SwiftUI is. And so the question is, does SwiftUI just need its Flexbox moment? Does it

⏹️ ▶️ John just need the new set of operations and operators and remodeling

⏹️ ▶️ John and rethinking of how a major component works? Because box sizing is a big part of CSS. And they’ve taken several

⏹️ ▶️ John runs at box sizing to try to get it to match the mental model of the programmer. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it could be that SwiftUI just needs a few more iterations on that, of them figuring out how people,

⏹️ ▶️ John how can we make SwiftUI better match how people think about doing things? But on the other side is, but maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John no declarative system like SwiftUI is ever going to be able to do all the things we need a GUI framework

⏹️ ▶️ John to do, and they will always need to be an imperative framework. And so we should decide, figure out,

⏹️ ▶️ John what are we doing here? Is UI, does UIKit continue forever in parallel track with SwiftUI?

⏹️ ▶️ John Is SwiftUI just a view system for UIKit? Can, you know, I know they bridge together really well.

⏹️ ▶️ John So does

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco AppKit and

⏹️ ▶️ John SwiftUI, like it’s not neat that you can bridge them, but it’s not a compelling developer story until you explain

⏹️ ▶️ John to people, so we just, do we just continue like this forever where our apps are a hodgepodge of UIKit

⏹️ ▶️ John and SwiftUI, whichever is the least frustrating. And by the way, half of these places that are UIKit started

⏹️ ▶️ John as SwiftUI until we hit a wall and had to turn back. That’s not a great experience. So, you know, SwiftUI,

⏹️ ▶️ John some people look at it and say, oh, it’s like three or five or whatever years old. It should be mature by now. But if you look at CSS,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I can’t do the math in my head because I’m bad at math, but it was around a long time before it was not maddening.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s arguably still kind of maddening. um but i you know

⏹️ ▶️ John so what do i does look a lot like css to me uh for good and for ill css has the advantage

⏹️ ▶️ John of being like not owned by a single vendor and so it kind of won by default

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s the way we style things on the web so tough luck and we all just worked on it until

⏹️ ▶️ John it was less sucky but swift ui does not have that advantage swift ui is not even the only framework within a

⏹️ ▶️ John single company’s thing there’s many other choices so it kind of has to like win a little bit on the merits.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if it is not a plus for Apple’s platform, then like, why are they even doing it? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John are you just annoying your existing developers not attracting any new ones? The whole promise of SwiftUI is that it’s a better

⏹️ ▶️ John way to develop that it would attract developers for your platform. And right now, I feel like it’s not quite doing that job.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I mean, when Swift, it’s such a cliche and common thing to say when SwiftUI is is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey works, and that’s a poor way of phrasing it, I guess, when you’re doing things that SwiftUI is happy with,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is amazing. And I am a terrible designer, but I can make things that look,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, pretty decent using SwiftUI, whereas doing the same thing in UIKit is difficult for me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess I’m a novice level iOS developer, I don’t know, but there are things that I find.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s certainly more verbose. There’s more moving parts, you know, like it’s, yes, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like Margaret said, after you make that thing and you’re like, whenever you’re doing this tutorial, it’s like, now add an icon, and

⏹️ ▶️ John now do this, And then like, if you, like when you’re with a new developer and you say you were showing them UI

⏹️ ▶️ John kit and you’re going through tutorials, like now make a table view and now add an icon next to it. And now make the every

⏹️ ▶️ John third one red and you know, like whatever, you’re just doing things. And then at a certain point, the person you’re teaching will go,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know what would be cool? Like, I think this would look better if we lined up the baseline of this text with that text.

⏹️ ▶️ John And UI kit, you can do it. And Swift UI, it’s like, nope, sorry. Like you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to rewrite the entire Swift UI engine to do that because they have no idea where each other’s baselines are. and it’s basically impossible,

⏹️ ▶️ John give up.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Whereas that’s not true UI. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is something you can do. In fact, Paul Hudson has a post about it that I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John read. I’m just making an example. I know, I take your point. Even the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John of like making equal size buttons with the widest one being as wide as the longest label. Like there shouldn’t be a tutorial page

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for that. That should be so easy to do. You’re right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I agree. And I think SwiftUI has potential and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see potential in SwiftUI and I really believe, and maybe this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a false hero, but I really believe if Apple had to make their stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using SwiftUI, suddenly they’d face palm and say, oh, oh, this sucks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, we got to make this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this all way better in order to make this workable.

⏹️ ▶️ John You already mentioned the weather app. They are dogfooding, just not enough. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey feel like that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John SwiftUI has gotten better to the degree that it has, the little amount of dogfooding they’re doing. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a bad idea for them to dogfood everything, you know, all at once, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John doing the weather app is a good first dog fooding. Let’s not tell them to just like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, redo every app in SwiftUI like they did for the notification center where those widget things

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. Those still annoy me. I think the mouse over stuff in SwiftUI is still broken. That’s why I mouse over my notification

⏹️ ▶️ John things and it’ll show the X to close it. But then when I go to click on the little thing like to complete the reminder,

⏹️ ▶️ John that button will disappear. Does this happen to you as well? No, I don’t think so. My faith in the mouse over abilities of SwiftUI

⏹️ ▶️ John is very low. But yeah, they, that’s, I think they will be doing more

⏹️ ▶️ John dogfooding, but I’m not sure you can just say, you just need to dogfood everything, because then all they’re gonna do is make

⏹️ ▶️ John all their apps buggy. See also shortcuts for the Mac, right? Like, do

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you want them to dogfood it before it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John ready? They have to balance the dogfooding with SwiftUI’s team ability to make their framework better.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s where I get to the question about SwiftUI, is like, is this an inherently limited approach that is never

⏹️ ▶️ John going to be able to solve more than 80% of the problems, in which case you need to have an imperative story alongside

⏹️ ▶️ John it, or are we just waiting for the flexbox moment?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going back to a couple things you said. So like, you know, on the Mac, I think part of the problem we saw was shortcuts in the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think we’ve, we’ve seen echoes of this with lots of software developers who have tried to use SwiftUI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for non trivial Mac apps. It seems like the the Mac implementation of SwiftUI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is significantly less mature and less usable than it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on iOS and watchOS. And, and I think, yeah, and, you know, that makes sense in the sense that, like, you know, we know this is a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco framework that was born on watchOS. And that then the other platforms kind of, you know, it kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco moved into them later in its in its development. And it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s no secret that the Mac software stack is a pretty low priority for Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, you know, even though the Mac is having a pretty great renaissance right now, Mac OS still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gets way less time and effort put into it and still seems to have way more bugs than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS does. And so a cutting-edge framework that is used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for almost nothing on Mac OS that is mostly being developed on other platforms,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s just going to be a low priority for Apple for the foreseeable future. And so SwiftUI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Mac OS is pretty rough. SwiftUI on iOS is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco decent and SwiftUI on watchOS where it was born is pretty great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think part of the reason why is that, you know, SwiftUI on watchOS, there’s a reason why this kind of framework works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really well on watchOS. It’s a much smaller problem surface that, you know, you have this smaller

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device, it’s way more constrained. There is no better UI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco framework to drop down to for us. So it’s kind of the only choice and also all of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limitations of it are things that you run into way less often on watchOS because you’re not trying to customize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every single little detail of the navigation bar or whatever. Like most of those things don’t exist on watchOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so it’s a very simple problem space and SwiftUI covers it very, very well. On

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS, it’s much more problem surface to cover and it seems less mature

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there’s all these so many other edge cases to consider. And so what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think though is like the reason why we’re all we all keep trying to climb up this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mountain. Even though we keep getting killed. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the mountain doesn’t just gently ask us to leave like it just kills us. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reason why we keep climbing up this stupid mountain is because when SwiftUI works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really nice. Oh it’s the best. Like that’s that’s why we keep going through all this pain.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not saying that this is the wrong approach. It’s not. And I’m not saying that I don’t see the value

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this. I do. I see it all the time. That’s why I keep trying. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want the value it provides. And when it works, it’s amazing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we really need to dramatically increase the rate at which it works for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us and start tackling some of these big, hairy, hard problems about things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco discoverability, documentation, performance, tooling, and just covering way more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the edge cases than we cover now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, well, I’m sorry, we got sidetracked.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, pulling back out to the whole OS question here, I think like a broader OS question that is tangentially

⏹️ ▶️ John related to SwiftUI is something we’ve discussed extensively on past programs, specifically related

⏹️ ▶️ John to the Mac is what is the Mac development API story? You got Catalyst, you got SwiftUI, you

⏹️ ▶️ John got AppKit. what’s the deal? Like what is,

⏹️ ▶️ John that needs to be more coherent. And on iOS, it seems like the UI

⏹️ ▶️ John kit and SwiftUI, it’s not a dichotomy, but like, what is the deal with that? Is that parallel

⏹️ ▶️ John forever? Is that SwiftUI eventually taking over everything? Like what is the plan? It’s much more dire

⏹️ ▶️ John situation on the Mac because AppKit is getting like no love and Catalyst is just UI kit in a different place.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s got its own SwiftUI problems. There was the 12.4 update that apparently broke everybody’s existing

⏹️ ▶️ John shipping SwiftUI apps by making all the labels disappear in their catalyst apps on the Mac. We saw that happen to what, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ John James Thompson’s app had that happen, and Steve Trout and Smith had it happen to his app as well. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do that. You can’t break people’s users in apps in a point update. So I feel like the

⏹️ ▶️ John API story on macOS for sure, and maybe a little bit on iOS, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is not the year that they’re probably gonna make it more coherent, but that’s kind of a long-term plan that I wanna see them at least moving in that

⏹️ ▶️ John direction and sort of rationalizing that. But for the most part, when I look at this OS list,

⏹️ ▶️ John most of these OSs with the exception of Reality OS, because who knows what that even is gonna be, I

⏹️ ▶️ John would say they’re mostly all moving in the right direction, it’s just complaints about the speed. Obviously, iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John OS is moving in the right direction so slowly that we’re pulling our hair out, right? We want more power, we want

⏹️ ▶️ John more flexibility. We get that, you know, in fits and starts, I think keyboard and cursor control was

⏹️ ▶️ John a big leap forward, but it’s just, we all want more. But no one’s gonna say it’s moving in the wrong direction.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like if you look at iPadOS over the course of its entire existence as a named thing, it’s been getting

⏹️ ▶️ John better in the ways that we want it to get better just more slowly. And every other OS that you list, including even MacOS,

⏹️ ▶️ John for the most part is moving in the right direction. Again, two steps forward, one step back.

⏹️ ▶️ John Shortcuts on Mac, thumbs up. Shortcuts on Mac, the app, thumbs down. So give

⏹️ ▶️ John and take. The new notifications, dogfooding SwiftUI, that’s a little bit janky, but you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, things are kind of moving in the right direction, getting a little bit better, adding

⏹️ ▶️ John features. And so if I look at most of these OS projects, they just do a year where every OS

⏹️ ▶️ John gets some new set of features, a fancier lock screen on iOS, some new stuff on watchOS,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, third party watch faces, why not this year, anytime now. iPadOS gets some

⏹️ ▶️ John more features for flexibility, just not as much as people want. MacOS gets a little bit nicer, fewer bugs.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, even tvOS for the most part, when they add features to tvOS, there

⏹️ ▶️ John are features that we say, yeah, please use the frame rate matching and better HDR support and like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, not that they advanced rapidly. I think directionally, all these OSs, none of them are on like the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John path. Like some would argue maybe iPadOS is on the wrong, but I think it’s just on the right path. It’s just going so incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ John slowly that it’s annoying. So I’m happy for all of them to move forward. What

⏹️ ▶️ John I would like, in the direction they’re already going, What I would like though is fewer steps back.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, can we just get some clean wins? For example, if shortcuts didn’t come to the Mac and the app hadn’t been terrible,

⏹️ ▶️ John that would have been better, right? Or if some new feature comes out but doesn’t bring with it a bunch of bugs

⏹️ ▶️ John or existing bugs from two OSs ago don’t get fixed, the crap like that

⏹️ ▶️ John makes it otherwise good year going along the paths they’ve made for themselves.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just makes everyone feel worse about it, right? I’m, and you know, for many years, we’ve always

⏹️ ▶️ John like sort of bargained with the mythical Apple saying like, can we just do an update where you just

⏹️ ▶️ John fix bugs? I don’t need any features or whatever. But really this is all this is saying is like fewer

⏹️ ▶️ John steps back. You do have to take some steps forward. You should add features. You should add refinements. Feel free

⏹️ ▶️ John to drop apps that aren’t important anymore. But like, please fewer steps back, fewer

⏹️ ▶️ John stumbles, fix some old broken stuff. Like I feel like we can get that this year out of all

⏹️ ▶️ John these OSs. And reality OS is going to be a big distraction because it’ll be brand new and who knows

⏹️ ▶️ John what it will be and it’s got it’s tightly tied to hardware that may or may not be a flop like so that’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John big question mark. But the whole rest of the stable of the OS is just keep doing what you’re doing. Just do it a

⏹️ ▶️ John little bit better.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. So Marco, are we going to see a headset?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s a crapshoot. I mean, the rumors have all pretty much consolidated on saying, whoops,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we were wrong. Actually, it’s not coming yet. Which is funny because like two weeks ago they were saying, it’s definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coming, get ready, you know. So, you know, we’ll see. But I don’t know, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at this point, every year that goes by, we always say, it feels

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the headset’s getting pretty close, maybe this is the year of the headset. And then after the conference passes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we don’t get it, we say, well, yeah, I guess it was too early. So we’ll see. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, I think whatever happens there doesn’t happen there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We don’t know how that’s going to end yet, as John was just saying. It could be a flop, it could be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really early thing that takes a while to really warm up, somewhat similar to the way The Watch did.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It could end up like the iPad, which that’s a whole thing. By the way, we gotta mention Federico’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco story before I forget. First of all,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Federico’s an amazing writer, and this is just a masterpiece. So what we’re talking but as Federico Faticci

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Mac Stories wrote this big article a few days ago, that he has been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco known as not only an iPad power user, I would say the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad power user. Like he is the iPad Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If there is a human version of what is the iPad Pro, who is the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro? It’s Federico Faticci. He has been using an iPad full-time for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years and years and was always pushing the envelope on what you could do work-wise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on an iPad and what it means to be an iPad Pro user. And he published this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bombshell the other day of saying basically he kind of secretly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco switched to the Mac for the last few months and has been doing all of his work on the Mac and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this big thing comparing what it’s been like and spoiler alert, he likes it a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it really highlights quite how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited the iPad is still in software. And that’s like the main, he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talks certainly about the ports and the keyboard and the trackpad and stuff like that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mainly the limitation on the iPad has always been software limitations. Things like multitasking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ability and app store rules and inability to hook into certain behaviors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and inflexibility in certain areas. You know, standard stuff that we know from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS usage and iOS power usage in particular. And so it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco jaw-dropping and I think that article should serve as a serious wake-up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco call to the iPadOS team that like things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are bad if your biggest enthusiast just stopped using your platform

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the last few months and kind of liked it better not using it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or it should be a wake up call to the Mac team because it’s not clear to me from that article whether he would

⏹️ ▶️ John be happier if iOS gained all the abilities that Mac had or if has he actually said explicitly in the article what

⏹️ ▶️ John if the Mac was more like the Surface where you could take a laptop and bend the screen back and now it’s a tablet and you can use a pencil

⏹️ ▶️ John on it but it’s also a Mac. And so like who is closer, which platform is actually closer to what VTG wants?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think actually the Mac is closer, especially now that it can run iPad apps. Not that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple particularly seems to wanna go in that direction, but there’s an example. Microsoft goes in that, their OS

⏹️ ▶️ John is very different, but hardware wise, they have a product line that does that. And people use it and like it.

⏹️ ▶️ John There is no reason the Mac couldn’t do that. And the Mac is way closer to doing that than iPad is.

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad is so far, it would have to add so much more stuff to get to where the Mac already

⏹️ ▶️ John is. Whereas the Mac just needs, it already has the ability to run iPads, it just needs to add touch, a little bit of different

⏹️ ▶️ John window management, pen support, and then hardware design, where it’s more like a Surface. We’ve got an attachable screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John a full backable screen, all that stuff. I don’t think Apple’s going to do that, but it was an interesting perspective

⏹️ ▶️ John reading his article and saying, he kind of wants a Microsoft Surface running Mac OS that can run iPad apps.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so anyway, that’s, I’ll save most of that for another day because I want to talk about more of these OSs, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly it highlights just how limiting iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OS is when you try to do non-trivial things with it the way he always does. And he’s always been really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good at like, if there is a way to do something, he will find that way and he will make,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes very ridiculous towers of hacks to try to get stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to work the way you want to on iPad OS. But really, iPad OS as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pro usage platform has always been very limited appeal. It has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always been fairly difficult to, because similar to SwiftUI, when you hit a wall, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hit it hard. And sometimes the process of getting over that wall, the answer is either you literally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t do that, or while you can do that, It’s gonna require, you know, hacks X, Y,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Z to do it, and you know, you might actually not wanna do that in the first place. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope to see some movement in iPadOS because we really didn’t see anything last year

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there. But at the same time, I’m not hopeful. I think iPadOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is lost, and I don’t see any signs that they have found

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their way yet and I don’t, as John was just saying, I’m not even sure they can find their way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the paradigm they’ve made for themselves to make it anything other than what it is right now. And what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is right now, you know, what the iPad is and what it does for people right now is not zero. It has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plenty of value to plenty of people. But I don’t think they’re gonna ever be able

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to push it into a place where it’s more of a power user platform in the way we think of as Mac power users.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not the podcast, the concept. I don’t think it can be pushed in that direction,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we’ll see, you know, if there’s anything in that direction, you know, this next week. But again, I’m not expecting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Since we’re talking about this article, may I read for you my favorite part of the article?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco please.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The iPad is the only Apple computer that can transform from a tablet into a laptop. It’s the only

⏹️ ▶️ Casey portable computer with built-in 5G connectivity, which I miss every day

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the MacBook Pro. Welcome to the club, Federico. Oh my gosh.

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, Macs are really close to that. It just, you know, it’s using the same chip. A lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of them you can just throw that right in there anytime you want, Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey One of us, one of us. I really enjoy my iPad. I’m still running

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the 2018 iPad Pro, the first one with Face ID. And by and large, it still works

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well. And I had a thing I had to do today and I’m working on a keynote presentation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for something that’s uninteresting. And I was doing that on the iPad. Like I was using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey keynote on the iPad and it was clunkier for me than using it on the Mac because I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where anything is. I don’t know how to accomplish things, but I was able to do what I needed to,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, in, in, in a place that was, that looked nothing like a place that you would want to do work. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was able to do that. And that’s super cool. And I was able to do that. You know, I, I happen to be on wifi, but I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could have used, you know, 5g if I, or the, the LT, uh, the features of the iPad, if I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to, like the iPad is just like SwiftUI, as you said, the iPad is really, really, really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great until it isn’t. And man, is it frustrating when it isn’t. But hopefully it’ll get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better. So moving on to what I actually have the most hopes for.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So well, before I get there, one thing I have low hopes for, and I hope

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they don’t exceed it too much, is macOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, I think Apple has shown when they tackle major macOS projects

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recently, they don’t usually do a great job of it. They don’t put a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time and effort into it to make it really high quality really bug free and stable. When they’ve tackled

⏹️ ▶️ Marco design changes in Mac OS recently, they’ve done kind of a two thirds ass job

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it. I would love to see them fix notifications, like the design notifications still is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco awful on Mac OS, since Big Sur and they didn’t touch it at all last year, it seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope they fix that. Other than that, I want them to stop touching it until they get better at touching it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’m not sure that will ever happened so please stop touching it. Moving on to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where I’m hoping to see the most progress is watchOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is in part because watchOS is still a very limiting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco factor in what I can do with my app and in part because as a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco user I just want so much more there. WatchOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the youngest platform of all of these still and it still feels like the youngest it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is still the most constrained it is still a minefield for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers to try to achieve anything I still get emails and one-star

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reviews and tweets every single day that what it really boils

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down to is watch OS is preventing my app from being good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and from even functioning at certain basic levels that my customers expect to function. And that would be in things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the ability to do background downloading reliably, the ability to execute an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco update in the background on a consistent schedule and somewhat reliably, the ability to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a complication maybe that that would be a little more dynamic and have less throttling and fewer limits

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it. That’s what I want to see from watchOS. And as a user, I would love to see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something to get me closer to custom watch faces, whether It’s actual custom watch faces, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love, but I think I’ve been burned so often on that hope that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t even hope for it anymore because I don’t want to lose. But something that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gets me closer to that. So maybe it’s one large complication that takes up, you know, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have the digital time and you know, in the top right quadrant and the whole bottom two thirds of it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are one giant complication. We almost got that with the Series 7 last fall,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we didn’t quite get that. I think so. You know, just some way that we can get a little bit closer to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco custom watch faces. If we’re not going to actually have custom watch faces, that would be great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco More abilities for complications to be more dynamic, you know, working in more Swift UI technologies, there are more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco timeline views in various places, things like that. But ultimately, in general,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want watchOS to allow my app to do more things that customers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expected to be able to do. And that would especially be in the area of background

⏹️ ▶️ Marco downloads and background execution.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, what do you want to do your Apple Watch that you can’t do currently?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, maybe I want to do a bit of tight. Oh, this that’s some follow up we should have added. Late

⏹️ ▶️ John time follow up. Last show we talked about Apple Fitness Plus and like how they don’t need the four

⏹️ ▶️ John by three things because no one’s watching Apple Fitness Plus on a four by three TV and lots of people send feedback. So yeah, but what about

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPad? the iPad is 4x3 and people watch Apple Fitness Plus on the iPad, so there you go, that’s why they need the 4x3 things. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I said, you know what, let me check it on iPad to see what it does. Does it actually fill the 4x3? Does it letterbox or whatever?

⏹️ ▶️ John So I go pick up my iPad, which is like, I think the most recent, oh yes, the M1 iPad Pro. I pick up my iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, all right, fit, you know, pull down F-I-T, oh, it’s not finding it. Do I not have fitness installed?

⏹️ ▶️ John I go to the App Store, Launch App Store, F-I-T-N-E, what? And it’s showing me ads

⏹️ ▶️ John and other apps called Fitness Something. I’m like, no, no, I want like the, like that’s where it is, right? It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John an Apple Fitness app. So I Google, to use Apple Fitness Plus, use the fitness app and it shows the one with the little activity ring.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m like, yeah, it’s the activity ring thing. So then I’m like, oh, is it in the app library? Why is it not finding it? I’m looking, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John scrolling, you know, this is the whole problem with find on iOS and iPadOS where you can search for an app

⏹️ ▶️ John even when you find it, you’re like, but show me where it is, where, on what screen is it and what folder is it buried in? I hate that so

⏹️ ▶️ John much. Cause yeah, you can launch it but you’ll never tell you where it is. Anyway, I’m not finding it, I can’t launch it

⏹️ ▶️ John anywhere. So I go like back to either a Mac, I forget what it was, I’m in a

⏹️ ▶️ John web browser. I like find a link that says, how to use Apple Fitness Plus,

⏹️ ▶️ John go here to download the fitness app. And so it’s like a link from a webpage that I’m like, all right, well, this will launch me into the app

⏹️ ▶️ John store. So I open that link on my iPad. I think I messaged it to myself or something. I don’t know, I’m just, anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John open link in the iPad, it brings you to an app store page that says Fitness Plus and says, sorry, your iPad doesn’t have the features that would allow

⏹️ ▶️ John this app to be installed on it. What? What? So not only do I not

⏹️ ▶️ John have the fitness app, remember this is me just trying to see what Apple Fitness Plus, which I pay for by the way because

⏹️ ▶️ John I pay for Apple One, see what it looks like on an iPad. Not only do I not have the app on my iPad, I

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t find the app in the app store, won’t even show me the product page. And when I get a direct link to

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple Fitness Plus product page, it says your iPad doesn’t have the features to allow this to be installed. And it’s at that

⏹️ ▶️ John point that I realized, wait a second, Does Apple Fitness Plus not work if you don’t have an Apple Watch?

⏹️ ▶️ John So to answer your question, what features of the watch, your non-existent watch would you like to have? I’d like to be able to at least

⏹️ ▶️ John launch the Apple Fitness without an Apple Watch. No, I don’t have an Apple Watch, Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John paired with this thing at all. I understand that. So I never knew the answer to that question. I have to ask you, Casey, if you launch

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Fitness Plus on the iPad, does it display four by three or is it 16 by nine letterbox?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t have my iPad near me. I want to say it’s 16 by 9.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you’ll permit me to go and run downstairs and come back in a moment, I can figure this out or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we can talk about it next week. But I just don’t have the iPad in this room and I apologize.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have anything against watchOS and Apple Watch. In fact, my wife, I told this story

⏹️ ▶️ John to my wife, she said, well, you know, she just got a Series 7, so she’s got, I think, a Series 6 or a Series 5

⏹️ ▶️ John that nobody’s using in the family. I said, well, you can have that watch, but of course, I don’t wear

⏹️ ▶️ John an Apple Watch, not out of spite or because I think it’s a bad product. I just don’t like having a thing on my wrist, which is kind of a barrier

⏹️ ▶️ John for a watch, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco But

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe I’d just put it on for workouts or something. I haven’t actually gone into Fitness Plus. But

⏹️ ▶️ John everything Marco said about like making the OS more amenable to the type of

⏹️ ▶️ John apps that third-party developers would like to do, like having a podcast app on your watch

⏹️ ▶️ John that can do the things that you would expect a podcast app to do, like download a podcast and let you listen to it, would be amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s a uphill struggle and not really, you know, the user experience

⏹️ ▶️ John is bad, the developer experience is bad, the product is just not quite there yet. So I

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like the APIs will probably expand slightly lagging with the hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like we just finally got the always on screens. Eventually we’ll have enough surplus

⏹️ ▶️ John battery life, I hope, to be able to do things like, here is a straightforward, reliable API to download

⏹️ ▶️ John a file. Then we won’t kill your application after two seconds.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s the thing. Like, you know, like in early watchOS development, we,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this has been an arc, a story arc for the entire history of watchOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In the beginning, users expected watch apps to be able to have interfaces that worked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all. And we couldn’t, because watch kit was awful. And it was doing the whole, like, you know, remote to your phone thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even when it moved the extension onto the watch a couple of versions in, it still sucked. And it was still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lackey and weird and awful and limited. And then we, you know, eventually over the long term, SwiftUI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco came in and fixed that. In the audio playback area in particular, for a while

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we couldn’t really do good background audio solutions. Like they were buggy and limited and sucked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and like that was preventing us from doing basic podcast and media apps that people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would expect to happen. That has since been solved fortunately. So that’s pretty much done. I have a couple of minor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little witch list things there, but they’re minor. For the most part I can do what I wanna do. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then now we have like the more specialized things, if you wanna have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an app that you launch and you’re using it actively and you close it and that’s it and there’s no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco real background update needs for it, that’s pretty well covered now. But now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people expect your app also, if you’re gonna have something like a podcast app or anything that has background updates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for its data, you expect that to be reliable. You expect to be able to have a complication update on a regular basis,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not be bugged out. I mean, geez, even as a user, like I mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while back when we launched the Apple Watch SE and family setup, I mentioned that we got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one for our son, and that is his primary mobile iOS device. Like he has an iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at home and on trips and stuff, but when he’s out and about, playing at the playground or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he has his Apple Watch as his only device. He doesn’t have a phone yet. And if we wanna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco locate him or message him or have him message us. So anything that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uses the GPS or the cellular, which we pay for and is part of, you know, advertised features

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of family plans, like that works about 85% of the time. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes with the Apple Watch cellular, and I’ve actually seen this on mine and on my wife’s watches

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well, so it isn’t just a family setup thing. Sometimes the cellular on the Apple Watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just doesn’t work. You just don’t get messages delivered to you and you can’t be located and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just doesn’t work until you reboot the watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it’s like, parts of watchOS, they’re so creaky, and I’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is somehow related to some background daemon being throttled or crashing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something. The platform just needs so much more maturation and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco advancement. And when we were asking three hours ago what I want on iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my list is so much shorter on iOS and it’s so much more abstract, like oh, let’s make SwiftUI better,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that wasn’t really about iOS as much as about SwiftUI because iOS is so mature and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so stable and has so much development happening for it over the last, I mean, geez,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what, 15, 14 years, whatever it’s been, that like, you know, there’s not much more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to wish for there. They’ve done a really good job and it’s very mature. Whereas watchOS, some of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basics still don’t work very well. And that’s why like I just, I was very excited when I heard,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it was from Mark Gurwin’s newsletter like last week, that there are allegedly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty big changes to watchOS happening, and that makes me very, very happy. Because even if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we don’t get a lot of flashy user-facing features, like custom watch faces, any kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of large improvements to the underlying stuff behind the scenes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the APIs, the background restrictions, and even just the OS itself being updated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in big ways, is badly needed on watchOS, much more so than the other platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s what I’m excited for in short. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that all sounds great. And I don’t know, I like my Apple Watch a lot. There’s not a ton

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wish from it other than as with all Apple platforms, like you were saying, stability and, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just do what I want you to do when I want you to do it. And even for the things that you’re supposed to be able to do. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I totally hear you. tvOS is something that I use all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t have anything specific I feel like I want from it, But I will say that TVOS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is another one of the situations where it feels like, does anyone at Apple use this? Like, is this, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Merlin said this a thousand times, and he’s right. Like, does anyone at Apple really use TVOS or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use it to watch anything other than Apple TV, well, actually, even the Apple TV Plus stuff? It’s such a pain in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hindquarters trying to find anything. But does anyone use this for real, really? Do any of you use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this? Yeah, the same thing with Apple Music. Like, does anyone at Apple actually use Apple Music?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because it could be so much better. And it isn’t, and it’s frustrating. But.

⏹️ ▶️ John Let me give you this. You’ve invoked the tvOS spirit,

⏹️ ▶️ John and now I have to give my most recent annoyance with tvOS. Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey please.

⏹️ ▶️ John The same story you’ve heard me say a million times, but here’s a concrete example. Watching Severance with someone who hasn’t seen it

⏹️ ▶️ John before. I’ve seen it before, but I’ve wanted to see it, so we’re going back through it. And you know, you watch

⏹️ ▶️ John an episode, and then the next day, let’s watch the next episode. So you launch TV, and then up next, you see a little icon on

⏹️ ▶️ John the left that says Severance. Great, the system is finally working. up next is showing me the thing I just watched. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not on the top left, but you know, I can still see it. It’s above the fold. I can see it on the screen. I don’t have to scroll. Let me just

⏹️ ▶️ John go down to severance. But of course it shows you a little thumbnail. And there’s always the question, were we on episode three

⏹️ ▶️ John or were we on episode four? I don’t know. Well, surely tvOS knows. Surely,

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever it is, it’s probably going to be the episode that we want to do. But for whatever reason,

⏹️ ▶️ John it picked the wrong episode. It was clear when it was showing us scenes, like, no, we’ve seen this one already.

⏹️ ▶️ John From that screen, you launch TV Plus, up next you go into

⏹️ ▶️ John the left tile. Like I wanna go back to the episode list of Severance. But if you hit

⏹️ ▶️ John back, you’re just back on that home screen again and you see your up next thing. How do you get to the episode list for Severance?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, that hierarchy just doesn’t exist. I can go back into that same episode. I could scrub, scrub, scrub

⏹️ ▶️ John to the end and then go to the next episode. But it’s like, is there no way to get to, oh, this is the

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong episode of Show X, take me to the list of episodes for Show X so I can see them all and their titles and maybe little progress bars

⏹️ ▶️ John of how far I’ve done in them or something like that. It’s not rocket science. TiVo was doing this ages ago. I hate

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it so

⏹️ ▶️ John much. And then my second mini rant is, I kind of like the new way

⏹️ ▶️ John that they expose like turning captions on and off in tvOS, like above the like scrubber bar, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of little controls. They’re like, hey, we have all this room on the screen. Let’s put some controls. But for the life of me, I have no idea how

⏹️ ▶️ John they expect you to get at those controls. I eventually get at them sometimes by flailing my thumb on the touch pad in random

⏹️ ▶️ John directions. They’re like, what do they want from you to get to that? It’s like, is it up, but not

⏹️ ▶️ John upy up, because that takes you to the top, but not down, but it’s like up and to the right, but just

⏹️ ▶️ John like, and there’s no cursor. And I have no idea what I’m doing. Do you know what I’m talking about? The little caption bubble that’s like above

⏹️ ▶️ John the time, above the scrubber

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco line now,

⏹️ ▶️ John and Apple TV plus native player control.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, yep, you have to swipe up a couple of times if I recall correctly.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but like, what is like, I always think like, did the first time not work, or is it just taking a hint, I just have to

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, Simon says go up to the thing and is it to the right? I just

⏹️ ▶️ John they They haven’t figured it out yet Like I just if this interface was like

⏹️ ▶️ John a menu system for a video game every review would trash it. Yep.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Agreed So yeah tvos just start using it apple and uh, make it make it cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’d be great and then uh, our I I guess reality os if it’s a thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just Sign me up. Let’s let’s see what you got.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean There is a downside for them calling it that. I know it’s like the code name and it’s all over the code and everything, but like

⏹️ ▶️ John if this thing has any problems whatsoever, let alone if it’s a flop, there’s a lot of jokes related to

⏹️ ▶️ John reality OS that are gonna come sailing down on Apple’s head. Do you think like distortion field

⏹️ ▶️ John related or other? The reality of this OS ain’t so great. ROS maybe is a little bit better,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I feel like they’re really running, they’re really running this lowercase letter OS thing into the ground.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s our OS, that’s what it is. Not our OS, it’s our OS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, it’s definitely not gonna be ours, believe me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Seeing the list written out here, do you remember when they redid this branding? Like, oh, don’t, you know, I know you don’t like Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John OS, all lowercase m-a-c, but like it matches in the family. But seeing this list here, what stands out to you

⏹️ ▶️ John as the ugly duckling in many ways? iPad and TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad, because it’s like, well, it starts with lowercase. Technically,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, but capital P, none of the other ones do that. And you know, it’s like iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John gets around it by just having the I, but iPadOS goes right to the capital P in the second letter.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s supposed to just be the OS that’s capital, but iPad is always lowercase I capital P. They kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of broke the pattern, and iPadOS is like kind of the black sheep of this family too, and it’s just.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I would say, I mean, I know everyone’s sick of everyone’s iPad hot takes since Federico’s article

⏹️ ▶️ Marco came out, but I mean, I would say, I don’t think they’ve lived up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to separating that out into its own name. I think it should still be called iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the iPad has not been significantly separated from the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it still has all the same limitations. So it might as well just be called iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, on this show, we call it iOS all the time. Every once in a while we’ll remember, oh yeah, iPadOS should be a separate thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John But if it really was this thing, I don’t think we’d have such a problem remembering it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but the reality is calling it iPadOS was seemingly purely a marketing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco effort and not really reflecting enough diversion from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS to really earn that name.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we don’t think we’re getting a headset. Are we getting an M2

⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook Air?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s another round of like late breaking rumors of like, you know, the redesigned MacBook Air is surely coming

⏹️ ▶️ John at some point. It’s conceivable that it could be announced at WRC, but this is whole noise around the

⏹️ ▶️ John M2 and it’s like, well, it’s not the real M2 is coming next year and this is just going to be like an M1

⏹️ ▶️ John plus, but Apple might call it M2. And it’s just like last minute,

⏹️ ▶️ John massive confusion slash taking back things that, you know, the rumors were so

⏹️ ▶️ John strong and everyone’s on the same page until like a week before the conference. Everyone’s like, wait, no, we were totally wrong. Forget it. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s going on. Ah!

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That’s exactly what happened. It

⏹️ ▶️ John totally did. Like they’re like, it’s not M1 plus? What? Like just get your story

⏹️ ▶️ John straight people like jeez, I mean, I still do believe that the MacBook Air rumors are probably pretty dead

⏹️ ▶️ John on. We didn’t see like we did with the with the MacBook Pros like what turned out to be a totally accurate leak of like the drawings of the case

⏹️ ▶️ John from that ransomware attack or whatever but I totally believe the redesigned MacBook Air rumors and honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t care if it has an M1 plus or an M2 or if they call something that’s an M1 plus they call it M2 like

⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook Air is not hurting for performance, right? It’s not no one’s saying oh MacBook Air it’s so slow.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a great machine. If they put it in a slightly different form factor that maybe has one or two more ports

⏹️ ▶️ John or is better in some ways or has a better screen, yeah, you’re gonna have to give it a notch. Like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, I feel like it’ll, the MacBook Air deserve, as

⏹️ ▶️ John probably still Apple’s best-selling laptop for a very good reason, it deserves to sort of take the leap

⏹️ ▶️ John into the new form factors. The MacBook Pro’s got it there, and the new form factor, everybody loves it. It’s different, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John quirky, it’s got a notch. Like, do it to the MacBook Air. I really don’t care what CPU has in it. That

⏹️ ▶️ John is my, I mean, this is not what Apple should be concentrating on, but my biggest hope for WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ John is new MacBook Air announcement. I’m setting aside the Mac Pro because I can’t even think that

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re gonna do anything about that. So I’m setting that totally aside. Obviously, I’d be way more excited about that, but I really don’t think it’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John happen. And tease of a Mac Pro, does that a thing that Apple does?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t even freaking know. But anyway, MacBook Air, a redesigned MacBook Air. I hope that is

⏹️ ▶️ John announced and released, and I hope it is available for me to purchase for my son when he goes off to college in the fall.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think that’s actually, I mean, we’ve heard, the rumors about the MacBook Air, the M2 MacBook Air, have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been all over the map for the last year, really. I mean, it was originally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco supposed to come out this past spring, that didn’t happen. And as John expressed better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than I can, the rumors have been very turbulent recently about the MacBook Air,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in particular, any M2-based- What’s inside it. Right, any M2-based products, you know, where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the M2 chip, what is it, like even like what TSMC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John process.

⏹️ ▶️ John What is the M2?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what process is based on what cores are, or is it based on like, this is now all been thrown

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up in the air with the rumor mill in the last few days even. Like it just seems like either the rumor mill was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way off and they’re now correcting themselves or something went really wrong and something got delayed and you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, the COVID supply chain stuff is obviously still messing with things. Like I mean, I should,

⏹️ ▶️ John how long did I have to wait for my studio display? And that is not advanced technology. So like all of Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John plans, like so many other companies’ plans are really getting screwed up. And you would think like, well, shouldn’t have you had those

⏹️ ▶️ John screw-ups before? No, all the stuff that came out when COVID just started, that stuff, that ship had already sailed. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John the lag time on how long it takes hardware to go through. What we are seeing now I feel like is the real wreckage

⏹️ ▶️ John of COVID messing with stuff. Because, you know, the pipeline was already filled with products that were gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John come out pretty much no matter what. But now it’s just, you know, like, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John really blame Apple for these. Like it’s kind of amazing that Apple is able to ship any new products at all considering how

⏹️ ▶️ John hard it is to get basic stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. But anyway, it feels like whatever is inside the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new MacBook Air, it does feel like it’s overdue or at least do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But as John said, even if it is just the M1 in like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a slightly modified form for now, M1+, you know, who knows what they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would, M1.1, whatever they would call it, that’s still amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the only limitation of the current MacBook Air, really, I would say, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having used one myself for a while and loving it, and then now using the newer things, is that the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air’s enclosure, the physical enclosure, is outdated. Like, that’s the main downside

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to it. It doesn’t have all the ports of the new, of the higher end ones, and I mean, we don’t actually know that it will.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It has the old screen shape, it has the old keyboard shape, it has the old Touch ID

⏹️ ▶️ Marco key, and the old proportions of the function, where it looks and feels outdated, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is a fairly old design now. And so, that’s the part that we’re hoping they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco update, is the physical side of everything, the enclosure, the shapes, the keyboards,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the keys, all that stuff. That’s what we want them to update. Whether it has an M1

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or an M2, whatever that means, inside of it, I think is barely relevant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all, honestly, for that product. And so that, I hope

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that does come out soon. That being said, that is not necessarily a WWDC release.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Usually in WWDC keynotes, they don’t usually do consumer hardware like that unless

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s some really good reason and maybe it’s like a very light software year. But from the rumors,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it sounds like it’s not gonna be that light of a software year, so they might not have time to do stuff like that. I think they can release

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that with standard press interaction in July, no problem. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so if they don’t want that to take up space in WBC or if it isn’t quite ready yet, that can wait.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if it doesn’t hit July, then they’ll do it in September or October or whatever. I think we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the ballpark of that product being released, but when it will actually be released is kind of up in the air and it kind of doesn’t matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As for the Mac Pro, I think it’s pretty clear from the last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco event that they want to tease the new Mac Pro soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think we’re gonna be waiting another year for it. I don’t even think we’re gonna be waiting until the winter for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It might be the winter before we can get one, especially given current supply issues. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m guessing that the Mac Pro is formally announced at this event.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I don’t know how much detail we’re gonna get, but I think it will be announced and shown

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in some way and then said, we can order it this fall, you know, something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s what I would expect to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey My biggest nightmare is that they tease it and say almost nothing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey specific about it, and then we have to zap Zupruder, or however you pronounce it, that bad boy, for the next

⏹️ ▶️ Casey six friggin’ months until we get answers. Please Apple, don’t do this to me. Don’t do it. Please don’t do it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me. Either nothing, or just show us everything, because in the middle, where these two have to go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on for hours and hours and hours about it, please no. Please, please

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John no.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how long it took me, like, from the time I ordered my Mac Studio to get one because I hesitated a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit. Like I don’t, if they announce a Mac Pro, I’m not ready to order the second

⏹️ ▶️ John it comes out, which means that if I eventually decided after a week of tour, having a hong, I should

⏹️ ▶️ John probably order one of these, it’s going to be like six months before I get it. Because if you thought trying to build all the parts that go in the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Studio is hard, whatever exotic stuff they have inside the Mac Pro is probably going to be worse. And yes, I know they sell

⏹️ ▶️ John far fewer of them, but I was shocking. shocking to me that the Mac Studio shipping delays

⏹️ ▶️ John are what they are given how few people in the grand scheme of things are buying Mac Studios

⏹️ ▶️ John like the sales numbers for this weird little computer had to be like 1 20th but they are for the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John Air even worse than that and it’s still months to get it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m also I’m still holding out hope that even though this is not something that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would probably buy we still haven’t seen a like really tiny

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Silicon laptop yet. Like there is no 12-inch or 11-inch, you know, MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air or whatever they would call it. That doesn’t exist yet. I think it’s very clear from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both, you know, the, first of all, from the 10-inch iPad or 11-inch iPad Pro, like that’s an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M1 product. Actually, no, even the 10-point whatever-inch iPad Air is now an M1 product. So like, they can obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fit this chip with a good battery and, you know, perfectly reasonable passive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cooling. They can clearly fit that in much smaller enclosures. You know, I think we’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the Magic Keyboard doesn’t actually take up that much more physical space

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the Butterfly Keyboard that preceded it, which we won’t talk about today because I’m happy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I think it’s very clear that they could make a really nice, super

⏹️ ▶️ Marco compact laptop from the M series of chips if they wanted to. I’m kind of surprised

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they haven’t yet. before the M1 computers were announced, I was predicting like they’re gonna come

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out the door with something super small as like a statement. And then we were all kind of shocked when they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just came out with like the unmodified MacBook Air

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John enclosure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They basically deleted the fan and kept everything else the same. And it was an amazing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer, still is an amazing computer, but they haven’t really like blown the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doors off in terms of what they can do physically with these new chips that we didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already have a similar size class of before. So I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love to see something like that. I wouldn’t say I necessarily expect it for this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco event, not only because, again, that wouldn’t really be a WBDC thing, but also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because we have heard absolutely zero rumors to that effect. And usually when they’re announcing a new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco size of computer that has a display, we almost always get display leaks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco months ahead of time from various leakers and Ming-Chi Kuo and things like that. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t seem like this is a thing they’re actually doing, but that is one kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unfilled spot in the lineup that I think if they tackled it now,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today, with Apple Silicon and with their modern, having seen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the light on the keyboard, I think they would do a really great job with it and I think people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would absolutely love that thing. Now whether they would sell a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it is another question. What we heard kind of unofficially, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 12-inch MacBook allegedly sales fell off a cliff when the Retina

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Air came out. And so apparently when people,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they love that little 12-inch thing, love asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, that little 12-inch thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but as much as they hated it, they kept buying them, But they loved it, but as soon as the 13-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Air came out that was much more capable and less compromised, they all moved to that, allegedly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we’ll see. Maybe this is a product that people think they want and actually don’t buy in enough volume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to matter to Apple, like the iPhone mini. But I still think it would be cool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have that, and I think a lot of people would absolutely love

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that computer. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That would make me at least consider doing the desktop laptop slash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey laptop laptop lifestyle that you’re you’re doing right now because Even though I don’t feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have any need for a you know new MacBook Adorable in my life.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love that thing so much. It was such a piece of trash and I loved it I absolutely loved it. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would make me think about getting it as like a satellite machine But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, it’s so fun for that. Like I saw somebody the other day. Maybe that’s why I’m thinking of it I saw somebody the other day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using an 11-inch MacBook Air. First of all, I loved seeing the light up Apple logo on the lid. That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John was like, I missed that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But like, but you know, I saw it, I was like, wow, that is still, you know, the 11-inch MacBook Air came

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out in 2010. And that is still 12 years later, a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strikingly small computer. Like when you see it in person. And it really had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very few compromises. The 11-inch Air was way less compromised

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the 12-inch MacBook. Way less. It had the regular keyboard mechanism, it had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a regular trackpad, it had a lot of ports, it was full of ports. It had Thunderbolt, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had a lot of stuff. It was actually a pretty great computer for what it was. It just had that really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco squat screen

⏹️ ▶️ John that was- That was the biggest compromise is, you gotta fit all your stuff in this little tiny,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, tank window into the world. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John if you used one, like the bottom of the computer was pretty much no compromises, but that screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like that would be a tough sell in the modern age. People just want more screen space.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, but that screen bezel was so thick, you know, it was like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a matted picture frame.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I know, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the proportions, like it’s just not, macOS does not lend itself well to that environment,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially if they default the dock to the bottom.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s true, but, you know, the 12-inch took it a little bit more, you know, closer to square

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather than being so like, you know, squat. And I think that’s, I think if they bring back the 12

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inch Air with modern design and modern hardware and modern

⏹️ ▶️ Marco choices, I think they would do a really great job with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So Marco, are you seeing a Mac Pro in this event or no?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, yeah. I said earlier, I expect them to announce it and to show off something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about it, possibly full details. I don’t know, but I expect them to at least announce

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it and tell us what the processor and card situation is there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wouldn’t expect people to buy it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or to order it yet. And I would only expect to hear a base price. Are they gonna show it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Oh yeah. As in,

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s what shape the thing is?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, no, I would expect a full reveal of the thing, similar to when they did the Trashcan and the 2819 Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where they announced it at WBC, but then you couldn’t actually buy it for a little while. I think it’s gonna be very similar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to that. What

⏹️ ▶️ John are you basing that on? Just rumors, or you think it’s the time for this? I don’t, I’m still think

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not going to happen to everybody. I would love it, but it just doesn’t seem like it’s in the cards for me. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gut feeling. I mean, it does feel like it’s about time. I mean, given, given their own stated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco timeline, which they’ve followed pretty closely for the Apple Silicon transition, they only have until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco November.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they did tease it at the end of the last thing. So I think they would like to do it now, but I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know if it’s just with all of the stuff happening. It just, for me, my gut feeling is it feels

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s not time, but hey, prove me wrong, Apple, I’d love to see it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And again, I wouldn’t expect to actually get one until like fall or winter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I think they will show it to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John us. I just need

⏹️ ▶️ John enough to make a shirt, so I need to know what it looks like.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which, quick aside, very, very late follow-up. Some people have been tweeting pictures of their shirts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mine have not come in yet because I always order on the later side. I haven’t forgotten yet because I use my techniques,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I always order on the later side, so I haven’t seen mine yet. But the ones that that I’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey photographed, they look real good, particularly the Interposer shirt. I’m real excited to get mine. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, I got all mine too. And I was pleasantly surprised at how much fine detail.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was worried about the detail on the back with the big SOC for the Ultra shirt, with the

⏹️ ▶️ John little things. I mean, I know I have the spec of like, can’t be smaller than this size or whatever, but

⏹️ ▶️ John all the detail that I wanted to show up, showed up really well. So, I mean, again, maybe it’ll, maybe it’ll fade

⏹️ ▶️ John with many washes or whatever, but right out of the box it looks pretty darn good. So, yeah, I got all mine.

⏹️ ▶️ John Good

⏹️ ▶️ Casey deal. Well, I’m excited for next week, I really am. I’m sad that I’m not there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I understand it, but I’m sad about it. But I’m really stoked, and I’m really,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really fascinated to hear reports, you know, formal and informal about what this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looks like, what it looks like for press, what it looks like for regular schmoes that are just showing up, you know, with permission

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from Apple, of course. breaking news. Apparently, Gruber’s doing the talk show and it’s being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hosted by Apple, which is fascinating. Like you actually sign up to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a ticket lottery at, which is super not bad, weird,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but weird, unusual, maybe is a better word for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, look at the developer center is the venue.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that right? Okay, I missed that part.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John As

⏹️ ▶️ John a free tickets for everybody. Someone should tell Apple of 30% of nothing is nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I said we are going to record it inside the Apple Developer Center.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Seating will be to say the least limited. So this will be interesting to see like what is the capacity of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco room they’re in in the developer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John center. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to set up folding chairs? I don’t know. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is there a little theater in there like the Steve Jobs theater?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know. What does it have to do with the Steve Jobs theater? No

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco one

⏹️ ▶️ John else is using it. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey We’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey find

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, I’m just I’m so I’m so curious to hear about everything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and and I’m really hopeful that come next year. You know, I’m personally,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m super reluctant to get on a plane right now, mostly on account of Michaela, you know, not being eligible for vaccination

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yet. I’m hopeful by next year that I will be more willing and that, you know, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll get a ticket to the big show and be able to go and experience it again. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey am so, so jealous of anyone who is able to go. And I hope that if you’re able to go, that you have a ton of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fun and let me, maybe not everyone, but maybe not, you know, the other guys, but let me know what you think,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I’m curious to hear it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Iodyne, and HulloPillow. I cannot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wait to go put my head on my HulloPillow. I’m so tired. Thanks to our sponsors.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And thank you to our members who support us directly. You can join us at slash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco join. And we will talk to you next week. We will be recording, hopefully,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it all goes to plan, on Monday, and hopefully releasing it late that night as soon as I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done with the edit. So it’ll be an exciting WDC week. If you want it even faster, you should join

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You should join to get the bootleg. Otherwise it’ll be probably a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco couple hours later. But yeah, we can’t wait for next week and we will talk to you then.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let

⏹️ ▶️ John him Cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John mean to Accidental, accidental, tech broadcasts

⏹️ ▶️ John so long.

How’s John’s self-employed sleep?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, John, I have a question for you. I think I stole this from somebody who tweeted about it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or emailed about it, but it was a fascinating question that I’d like to hear the answer to. Are you sleeping more now?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I think we’ve answered it in rec tips, all these podcast Monday. Not really, because

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m setting my alarm for the exact same time I always set it for, because the kids are still in school,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco so I have to wake up

⏹️ ▶️ John and, you know, get everything ready and make sure everyone has breakfast. And, you know, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John been cooking breakfast for the kids

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey every morning. Good morning. Tell me

⏹️ ▶️ John what the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco menu is. It’s mostly pancakes.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Pangea.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Pancakes,

⏹️ ▶️ John fruit, mixing it up with different, doing some experiments with the pancake mixtures

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that, but yeah, mostly pancakes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you have any micro horseradish on your menu?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I do not,

⏹️ ▶️ John but yeah, no, my sleep is about the same, which is to say probably still not enough

⏹️ ▶️ John because I’m still setting an alarm, but once summer comes, I’m hoping I’ll be able to sleep in more.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was my next question. Are you taking the summer off? So are you just sleeping until you wake up? Is that, well, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dangerous for you because you wouldn’t wake up till like two.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sleeping until I wake up, come on. What universe is this? Do

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you have a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco family, Casey?

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey do, I do. Sleeping

⏹️ ▶️ John until I wake up. Maybe if the rest of my family and my dog left the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey house. John, I haven’t slept past 7.30 in like 10 years. So I’m not saying I’m living the dream.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I’m not sleeping until I wake up. That’s not a thing for anyone considering

⏹️ ▶️ John having pets and or children and or a spouse.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Not

⏹️ ▶️ John really, I think. But no, hopefully I’ll be able to sleep longer. The kids mostly sleep in, but the dog does not

⏹️ ▶️ John sleep in.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So Daisy’s getting you up at what time regardless?

⏹️ ▶️ John And neither does my wife. Yeah, Daisy wants to, Daisy will, if it’s before six,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can safely go to the bathroom and return to the bed. If it is after six, you cannot.

⏹️ ▶️ John Fair enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And are you napping at all?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m not a napper.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, yeah, I said that too, and that lasted like six months, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey suddenly I became a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John napper.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think I’ll ever be a napper until I’m so old that it’s just I can’t tell what day it is anymore, and it doesn’t matter.

⏹️ ▶️ John But no, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey do naps.

⏹️ ▶️ John I take a nap, and then I wake up, and it’s like my entire life is ruined. I have no idea what’s going on.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That used to be me. What planet am I on? Is this

⏹️ ▶️ John real life? I’m just terrible. I just do not like it. Beep, beep,

⏹️ ▶️ John beep.