Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

383: Demand-Paged Outrage

Marco discovers restaurants, Casey discovers the Touch Bar, and Hey discovers the App Store.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. 🏖
  2. Membership update
  3. ARM Mac dev-kit speculation
  4. What if ARM Air beats all Pros?
  5. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  6. Racial Equity & Justice Initiative
  7. Casey’s new MacBook Pro
  8. Sponsor: Fully
  9. ARM early days
  10. Sponsor: Linode (code atp2020)
  11. Apple IAP rules vs. Hey
  12. Ending theme
  13. WWDC software wishlist


⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I’ve got a little bit of weird setup this week Next week is the time that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am hypothetically going to be not at home, which is a semi inconvenient

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time and from the from the Perspective of what though there’s nothing going on this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey next week, right? But nevertheless, I thought you know what? I should probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey try out all this new equipment including a brand new friggin computer And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am recording and speaking to you this week from my MacBook Pro, and if everything sounds like garbage, I’ll just lie and say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it was the adorable the whole time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So yeah, I want to hear more about that computer later, actually, because this is your first new laptop in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey while. Yeah, definitely, and we will talk about it. But yeah, if it all sounds like garbage, don’t blame Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey blame me. I’ve changed everything except

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my microphone my microphone and the preamp. But like, cabling got changed, the computer got changed,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything is different. And so I figured, you know what, if I’m going to screw this one up, then let’s screw

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this one up and not next week’s, which is a little bit more important. Why not both? Yeah, por que

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no los dos. Did you by any chance get the, you know, oxygen-free,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gold, everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey solid monster cables?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, this guy who used to work at Staples, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John hope I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco have that right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey told me that it was all garbage and I shouldn’t do it, and then he got fired for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn’t get fired for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, you didn’t? Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I just was reprimanded a little bit by telling customers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey not to buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the super expensive cables because they were a waste of money.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Lightly reprimanded, I know how that goes. What else going on? How’s the beach?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know, I feel bad appreciating anything right now and having a good time right now, but I really am having a good time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s really, after months of misery, it’s extremely nice for my mental health to have some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco repair time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, it’s, it’s funny you say that. Um, something I wrestle with a lot. Um, I carry

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with me a lot of guilt about a lot of different things, not white cars, coincidentally, because those can just happen to you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a listener wrote to us, which I won’t say any more than that. But, uh, white cars can happen to you. I don’t care guilt about that, but I carry

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guilt about basically everything else in the world. And it’s funny because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I, you know, I’m going away soon and not for a whole long time, but long enough, and I’m really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looking forward to it and really excited about it, and I also feel a little guilty about that, but on the same side, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not on the same side, I guess on the flip side of the coin, I feel like. All of us, every

⏹️ ▶️ Casey single one of us, the three of us, everyone listening, we all need to take care of ourselves by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever means we possibly can. Maybe that’s buying something frivolous. Maybe it’s getting takeout

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from a really expensive restaurant. Maybe it’s, you know, going to the beach for a while, be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that a day, a week, a month, or a year. You know, whatever the case may be, I don’t think any of us should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel guilty about taking care of ourselves and our loved ones, even though I totally agree with you and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey totally feel guilty about the fact that I’m excited to be going away and quarantining in four different walls for a little while.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Did you? So have you been to any restaurants yet?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve gotten plenty of takeout. I have not been to any, and this is going to be really challenging for us when we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on our vacation because even though none of the restaurants in this little town

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we love so much are particularly remarkable, we still really love these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey restaurants. I don’t know. I’ve not experienced—is it Boom Boom or Bang Bang Sauce?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tom Moore Boom Boom Sauce. That might be something else. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Fair enough. Well, it’s Bang Bang Shrimp at—what do you call them? What’s the Outback owned Bonefish

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Grill. Anyway, point is, I don’t know if Boom Boom Sauce is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most amazing thing that’s ever been put on any food item ever, and it may be. But my assumption

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and my expectation is that it is legitimately very good, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey earth-shatteringly good, right? And so these restaurants at this place that we’re going, they’re good. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good restaurants, but they’re not earth-shatteringly good. But part of the experience was that we would go out to dinner

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most nights, which is a very unusual thing for us and go to these restaurants in years past and experience them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and eat at these restaurants and we really love that. And you know, there’s no reason we can’t do takeout this year, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of the fun is eating out and our kids thankfully are pretty good for the most part at restaurants.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I always enjoy that and Aaron always enjoyed that and they enjoyed that and I’m a little bummed that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s not going to be part of the shtick this year unless on the extraordinarily

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slim chance there’s like literally nobody else on the patio and And then maybe I would consider

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, maybe, but even then I’d probably just get takeout. But have you done anything, Marco? Have you had your boom boom

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sauce? Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anthony Well, first of all, the boom boom sauce can be ordered at one of the delis in a to-go container.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I have been having boom boom sauce on my eggs since we’ve gotten to the beach.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because the very first day I went there and I ordered, you know, you had to like, you know, give them a list, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco text a list to a number and they would bring it to your house basically.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And on that list was a tub of boom boom sauce from the deli. And I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get it whenever I want. It’s just like a Ken’s food service thing. You just have to order a whole gallon of it, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s from Amazon or from some kind of food service provider. You can’t get it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in regular consumer-sized amounts. And I decided to just leave it be like a special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fire Island thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that’s a good idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really enjoy having this part of my life be a whole different mode.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so much of modern life, you can kind of keep the same and bring with you wherever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you go, year-round, anywhere in the world. You know, if you want to, you can have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of things be exactly the same all the time. And for some things in my life, I do that. You know, this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why I brought my iMac here, and I continue most of my work here and everything. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is nice to have like a different mode that you go in, in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain places, or in certain seasons or certain times of year or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is to have a different lifestyle. And one of the reasons I like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it here so much is that the nature of Fire Island forces a different lifestyle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a large degree. There’s no cars here. You get everywhere on bikes. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco flat and everything is just, instead of roads, there’s just very wide sidewalks and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s charming. And like part of a recipe for charm

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is to take something that you have to do all the time and add inconveniences

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to it that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John are something,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inconveniences that result in a pleasurable but more difficult requirement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So for instance here, to get groceries, you can’t just drive your car to the grocery store and load up and drive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco home. You have to either order for delivery, which I don’t usually do if I can help it, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco take a bike or a wagon to the grocery store and you walk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you’re only here in the summer when the weather’s nice. There’s no cars in the way. There’s no hills.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s flat. It’s kind of charming to have to walk outside in the summertime and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or bike to the grocery store and then bike home. You take these things that in everyday life are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of too easy in a lot of ways, like, or they’ve gotten too easy or they’ve gotten too routine and you add things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that make everyday life slightly more of a pain in the butt, but in ways that that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco resulted in charming outcomes. That either you get more exercise, you get fresh air, you get to ride a bike around,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, that kind of stuff. So this place forces a certain lifestyle that includes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of that kind of stuff. And this is where, you know, I wear my Apple watch a lot more here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do different kinds of exercise here. I started running this year for the first time ever. Because running here is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really easy. And-

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey We should talk about that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sometime.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, yeah. Running at home is, where I live at home, running is-

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, that would not be fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s pretty unpleasant most of the year. Just for weather reasons, it’s pretty unpleasant. And it’s a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hilly, very hilly neighborhood. So running at home is not incredibly pleasant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So at home I like to row on a rowing machine. But here, I like to run, it turns out. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a really nice place and a really nice time of the year to run. I like having a more different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lifestyle here. Like, just to be different as much as possible. Like, I wear different clothes here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have different priorities here. So anyway, I forgot, how do we get on this topic?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t even know, inconvenience and doing things differently and uniquely. And the boom boom sauce,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey And the boom boom sauce.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the boom boom sauce is one other thing that I add to that pile of things that are different. I have an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco entirely different flavor profile for my breakfast when I’m here. At home,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we make scrambled eggs a certain way with spinach and tomatoes and everything. When I’m here, we usually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do boiled eggs cut in half with boom boom sauce or fully deviled with boom boom sauce on top.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s like a full, it’s a whole different lifestyle. It’s part of the charm of like shifting into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this mode. And yeah, I like having more of those things. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I use different headphones out here. Like just like, just everything is like a little bit different, oftentimes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in ways that I like more or that are better or just different from what I do the rest of the year.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, I’m glad that you’re there. You sound happy. Not that you sounded unhappy before,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you sound a little bit airier and, yeah, I don’t know if that’s the right word, but like happier, more jovial maybe?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I’m excited.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, and to actually answer your question that you actually asked, you know, 15 minutes ago

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey before I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John rambled on about how much I like it here,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after the day after last week’s episode was my birthday, as you mentioned, thank you for, thank you for that. It turned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out that the day before my birthday was the first day in this county

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that restaurants were allowed to be open. And it’s still very restricted. It’s still it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco outdoor seating only. The tables are spaced really far apart so they don’t have many, not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of tables. And you have to wear masks the entire process unless

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you are sitting at your table. So to and from the table, if you get up to go to the bathroom, like masks during all those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco times. The servers and the entire staff wear masks all the time. But you can sit there at your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco table outside far from everybody else with no mask on when you were at the table and eat your food.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Part of my birthday celebration is I got to go out to a restaurant for the first time in months. And… Oh, that’s awesome. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was amazing. And you know, it’s a decent restaurant. It’s not like a mind-blowing restaurant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a nice restaurant, but it’s not like, you know, mind-blowing, but it was a restaurant. And when you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John been,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, quarantined for all this time and you’ve had at best takeout food, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, we weren’t actually doing that much of because the takeout around us isn’t very good. So we were mostly just cooking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we’re not that great at it or into it. So it’s been a few months of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really bland food life. And so to celebrate my birthday with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a night at a restaurant, even though it was a very strange experience, all the masks and everything, and all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco spacing and outdoor, it didn’t feel incredibly normal, but it was really nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that was a fantastic way to celebrate. So if you have the option to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that safely where you are, I suggest it. You don’t have to do it all the time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and obviously it’s up to you what kind of risk you want to take. If you can do it safely in a way that fits your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco risk profile, it’s a really nice luxury to have restaurants again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’m looking forward to whatever that time is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they could really use the help, honestly. Oh, yeah. Like, don’t feel guilty about going to a restaurant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Feel guilty every meal you’re not going to a restaurant because they are desperate for a business right now. Because restaurants,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as we mentioned before, restaurants are not, even in the best of times, a high profit business with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of runway. To go three months or whatever it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been with either significantly reduced or no profits,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a lot of restaurants can absorb that. Help your restaurants, go to them. Spend a lot of money at your restaurants.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They need it.

Membership update

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s start with some follow-up and we have to there there’s no way not to start with a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Genuine in deep. Thank you to all of our listeners for For

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even considering joining our brand new membership program and for more than I expected of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you to have actually joined our membership program The feedback has been almost you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, you almost universally great. I have been overjoyed by the feedback What did we say John that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you were in the middle? I was the pessimist and John was the optimist Is that what we concluded? Mad

⏹️ ▶️ John Fientist Margot was the optimist.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m the optimist.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sorry. That’s what I meant. I’m sorry. Yes. Well, anyway, so I definitely was wrong without question. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. I haven’t talked with the guys about where they think it all landed, but I have been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey overjoyed by it and extremely impressed by it. A couple of things that we want to, well, actually, before we go any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey further, any comments from the two of you about what has transpired in the best possible way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for ATP membership?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, it’s been wonderful. I’m extremely pleased. Thank you all so much for supporting us, honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so quickly. My optimistic goal was a certain percentage of our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listener base, and we are halfway there already after one week. So that’s extremely…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is heartening a word? I know disheartening is… Whatever the opposite of disheartening is, I assume it’s heartening.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve never heard people use that word, but it’s extremely heartening. I’m going to go with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have so much support from all of you, so thank you very much. We’ve gotten a lot of great feedback

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on what you might want out of membership, possible improvements we could make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to it. Surprisingly, most people seem very happy with exactly what we already launched, which is kind of fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have heard a few concerns about things like currency conversion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or annual payments. We’re looking into a lot of different things. No guarantees. We’re going to see what we can do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s a lot of trade-offs to a lot of this stuff, but rest assured we are looking into a lot of that stuff as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As for the, like, you know, what you get, everybody wants Cooking with John. Steve McLaughlin That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco That is absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true. John, is it going to happen?

⏹️ ▶️ John John Greenewald Talk about everybody. I saw about the same number. Well, I saw more requests for Destiny. Maybe it’s just because they’re sending

⏹️ ▶️ John them just to me and maybe they’re sending the Cooking with John ones to you. But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco anyway, those are

⏹️ ▶️ John stretch goals. We’re nowhere near any of these things yet. So we thank you for the innovative ideas. We will

⏹️ ▶️ John keep them in mind. But a lot of the stuff like that, we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and one thing that I can definitely say that we are working on and that we do plan to launch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Unless we’ve run into some massive like showstopper, but we do plan to work on or I am I’m working on and we do plan

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to launch a Quote bootleg feed which is a feed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that basically gives you recordings of the live broadcast Very quickly after it ends.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’re looking into that now. I’ve started building some of the support into the CMS We just ran out of time and I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when this will be done But this is something that we are, you know, again, unless some massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco showstopper comes up that we can’t foresee, we do plan to do this sometime fairly soon. Maybe by next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week, if it’s aggressive, but I don’t know. Oh, next week’s WBC, so maybe not next week, but we’ll see. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna, we probably have a very busy few weeks ahead of us with WBC stuff, so it might not happen before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, but we’re trying. We’re working on it. A lot of people have asked for it. Keep in mind, like this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what this is, is the often requested unedited feed. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for better and for worse. You know, unedited really means unedited. There’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be stuff like, you know, our stumbles. You might, depending on how we do it, you might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hear a Skype artifact here or there, or you might, like, you know, somebody might drop a word

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the Skype connection gets a little bit flaky. Like, depending on how, you know, what end we record this on, how we do it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the audio quality will not probably be anywhere near as good as the final released show is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But a lot of people don’t care, because it’s still, you know, it’s less than a bowl, it’s not bad. So anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so we’re working on that. It’s basically gonna be exactly what we are broadcasting on the live stream. People have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco requested that in large numbers, and so we are working on that. I don’t think any other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco standout requests have been coming in. Do you guys think of anything else?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we covered most of them. The currency and longer time periods. And

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a bunch of other stuff. Anyway, we’ll like, expect the membership to evolve. Like I’m speaking for myself,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m very motivated to try to make the membership program good. Like, because

⏹️ ▶️ John we talked about diversifying income and everything, you know, and we’re very happy with the membership signups

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything. But realistically, it’s still a tiny fraction of the listeners. But for that tiny fraction, it’s a new

⏹️ ▶️ John relationship with our listeners. Like, you know, not that ad

⏹️ ▶️ John sales and everything is particularly indirect. It’s still fairly direct. You listen to the show. We sell ads on the show.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, it’s not really that complicated. But now with direct payment, I feel like there’s a straight line

⏹️ ▶️ John from listener directly to us. So I do want to provide something that everybody likes. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John I assume that this, the offering will evolve over time, but right out of the gate, uh, we’re trying to hit

⏹️ ▶️ John the top request, which is the bootleg feed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, yeah, we don’t know what the timing will be in terms of when any bootleg will be available. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey also at this point making no guarantees about, um, you know, Oh, it’ll always be, you know, within the first half

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hour after the show, it might be the next morning for us. We don’t know. We’re going to aim for as quickly as possible and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’re going to aim for as good sounding as we can reasonably get with as little work as possible. But again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it very well may be that you’re hearing a Skype recording of two thirds of us and a really crisp

⏹️ ▶️ Casey recording of one of us. We’ll just see. And it can involve, it can evolve, you know, if, if we start with the bootleg

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and we do it immediately, but it sounds like dirt and then we realize, well, maybe you’d rather do it in the morning,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it’ll sound really, really good. Maybe we’ll do that. We’ll see. But we are committing to barring,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like Marco said, any major showstoppers. We’re committing to having that sometime as soon as can reasonably be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hoped, given that the most busy time of the year starts in a few days. So we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to try. Also, something that I thought was extremely kind and flattering, even though it wasn’t flattering to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me, was that a lot of people said, well, I don’t know if I want to stop listening to the ads because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the ads are really good and I find stuff that I like in the ads and that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey idea. That’s what the ads are there for. And I just wanted to remind everyone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey both tongue in cheek and seriously, that even if you are a member, that doesn’t mean you have to use the member

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only feed, you can continue to listen to the regular feed, the free feed, even if you’re a paid member.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, you do you, that’s perfectly fine. And I like Marco’s ads and I also

⏹️ ▶️ Casey find things that I enjoy in not only our own ads, but other podcasts ads. So that’s a perfectly reasonable thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do. But yes, in summary, thank you so very, very, very much.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It really does mean an incredible amount to all three of us that so many of you have opened your wallets

⏹️ ▶️ Casey specifically for the three of us, and that’s extremely, extremely kind. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m really flabbergasted at how the response has been. So thank you. All right

ARM Mac dev-kit speculation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, tell me about Xbox 360 dev kits. This

⏹️ ▶️ John is kind of a collected follow-up about the ARM Mac dev kit thing that we talked

⏹️ ▶️ John about last show. If Apple’s going to roll out a series of ARM-based Macs or Macs based on some other CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John other than x86, we were talking about what kind of hardware they might give developers

⏹️ ▶️ John to port their applications and test their applications. And we talked about a bunch of stuff, and then we got a bunch of feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John about different theories. The first bit is, when I was talking about how

⏹️ ▶️ John console development works, how you get a dev kit for a console and it’s not like the console, right? And that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John something that game developers deal with in the console world and have forever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Someone pointed out an old item from back a couple generations ago in the console world,

⏹️ ▶️ John the Xbox 360. That was the generation where everybody decided to use PowerPC CPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John in their consoles, including Microsoft with the 360. Uh, the one of the

⏹️ ▶️ John early dev kits for the Xbox 360 was a power Mac G5. There was that big

⏹️ ▶️ John picture. I remember of like a truck full of power Mac G5 is being delivered to Microsoft. And

⏹️ ▶️ John at the time it was like, isn’t this weird Microsoft getting a bunch of Macs and they’re not even,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not even part of like their windows thing. It’s all, you know, they’re getting them to do development work on the Xbox 360.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I will put a link in the show note if you want to take a look at that. tried to like resurrect

⏹️ ▶️ John an Xbox 360 dev kit using a power Mac g5 you know I don’t know if it was a

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware from that from that era or just trying to recreate it but it looks like the person got

⏹️ ▶️ John actual Xbox 360 games up and running on a power Mac which is totally weird so yeah development hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John that was internal obviously I don’t think I’m not sure it was ever sent out to game developers but probably

⏹️ ▶️ John was knowing the way console development works very often like first party or second

⏹️ ▶️ John party developers get really weird early access to hardware just to get going on their on their games.

⏹️ ▶️ John The next idea that was suggested by many people was what if Apple just released

⏹️ ▶️ John an add-in card for the Mac Pro and that add-in card had basically you know an ARM CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John and all the other stuff in it. Could that work? Well yeah it totally could work but

⏹️ ▶️ John but basically nobody has Mac Pros. So I’m not sure how that

⏹️ ▶️ John helps anybody except for maybe people inside Apple. Like the Mac Pro is the only Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple sells that has PCI card slots in it. And they have not sold a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of them, I can imagine. And it’s really expensive and they’re not gonna sell more of them by suddenly putting ARM

⏹️ ▶️ John cards in them. So I’m gonna file that under technically plausible and

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe even something that they possibly could be doing internally at Apple, but boy, I cannot

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine any significant number of Mac developers running

⏹️ ▶️ John out and buying a extremely expensive Mac Pro plus an add-in card to test their

⏹️ ▶️ John ARM Mac stuff on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I also imagine the complexity involved in the software and hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco architecture of that, of like, okay, you’re running an Intel architecture computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Inside of it is a smaller, you know, ARM computer that yes, I know they have like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco T2 and everything, but this is like a whole separate thing that would have totally separate needs and totally separate,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, hardware engineering requirements and all of that for a very, very temporary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solution for, you know, but that’s preparing you for a,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, very near term probably like within a year future where they’re selling ARM

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only Macs. So like they’re already doing all the engineering to make standalone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco arm max complete you know arm only presumably standalone max right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they’re already doing like you know they’re having to engineer motherboards and I oh and power management

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know all this stuff in a desktop you know desktop and laptop context that’s all gonna be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit different than like an iPad so they’re already doing all that why would they also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a solution that’s only gonna to be around for a year maybe, that is, okay, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also going to build on the ability for this Mac Pro that nobody except John bought to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have this entire like daughter card thing, like that’s, it’s just, it’s very implausible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco compared to, okay, they’re already making a, you know, ARM Mac engineering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco platform that’s standalone, just ship an early version of that as a dev kit. That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is way more likely.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, unless they already did it internally, but I think that honestly the timeline of the Mac Pro, it was probably too

⏹️ ▶️ John late. Like, presumably they were working on the R Macs on a timeline that started earlier than

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro, especially given how it was kind of rushed out. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, Apple, the idea of having a whole separate computer inside there, Apple’s done that a couple times in their past. They used to sell

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac with a 486 PC inside it. I don’t know if you remember that one.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh yeah, for virtual PC stuff, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, no, like with a literal 486 PC. Oh, right. Like an actual Intel 486 CPU and like an entire PC.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it was back with the Pizza Box Macs,

⏹️ ▶️ John how they used to sell an Apple II card for some Macs, where it was basically an entire Apple II

⏹️ ▶️ John inside your Mac, and so it would run Apple II software on the Apple II card. Yeah, so

⏹️ ▶️ John technically plausible, but highly unlikely. Mac Mini was suggested.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if we talked about this last time, but it’s like, oh, well, you know, suggesting that they ship

⏹️ ▶️ John early versions of a Mac that they’re gonna make. What about just hacking together something, you know, Like back in

⏹️ ▶️ John the day with the Pentium 4 inside a Mac Pro case, that was, let’s assemble

⏹️ ▶️ John a working Intel Mac out of the pieces that we have. We’re never gonna sell this, we’re never gonna sell a Pentium 4 Mac, but we’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John this big case, and we can get a motherboard, and we’ll shove it inside the case, and chip it out, and that’s our, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John their dev kit for Intel Macs, right? You’ve got a Mac mini case. These days, you know, they don’t, I don’t think they’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John use this, you know, $700 fancy drilled out Mac Pro case, but a Mac mini case is rarely available,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s really easy to shove a tiny little ARM-based computer inside there, like, I mean, the Raspberry

⏹️ ▶️ John Pis that Casey has, or you could put five of them inside a Mac mini case. And, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John ARM CPUs are probably relatively small and power efficient and no problem using a Mac mini case.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s a fairly cheap way to make a dev kit that could be economical. And

⏹️ ▶️ John presumably there will eventually be an ARM-based Mac mini, but that doesn’t matter. Like again, the

⏹️ ▶️ John Pentium 4 developer kit they sent had no relation to any

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel Mac that they were making. other than the fact that they use a cheese grater case and eventually they made, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel Macs in the cheese grater case, but everything about it was different. They never used that motherboard,

⏹️ ▶️ John they never used that CPU, they never used any of that stuff, right? So, they could take a Mac mini, shove some

⏹️ ▶️ John guts in there and distribute that. That’s a pretty cheap way to do it. It’s cheaper than even doing a laptop because you don’t have to worry

⏹️ ▶️ John about the screen and stuff. Although again, it might be annoying to people to have to hook up an external display if they don’t have one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV, in the same vein, how about an even smaller box? hey, we’ve got this little rounded, black

⏹️ ▶️ John rounded rectangle thing that already has an ARM CPU in it. Again, hollow it out, put in a little ARM

⏹️ ▶️ John CPU, or if they’re working on a new Apple TV variant, then maybe they can share some hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John with that. That could work too. It starts to get a little bit too small and a little bit too cute, but hey, who knows, stranger

⏹️ ▶️ John things can happen. Getting even more cheaper, you know, going down the line from

⏹️ ▶️ John a card for your Mac Pro or a Mac Mini or an Apple TV. How about this? Marco mentioned the T2.

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs have had little ARM CPUs in them for a while, especially ones, I can’t think it started with a touch bar.

⏹️ ▶️ John Was the T1 powering the original touch bar? I forget

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco what the hell the

⏹️ ▶️ John numbering was. Yeah, but anyway, most Macs have a T2 in them now. The T2 is,

⏹️ ▶️ John help me out here, is it like an A7 equivalent? I think A10-ish. No, it’s A10 from the

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone 7, yeah. So it’s no slouch, the T2 is no slouch. You

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s basically a similar CPU to what was in the iPhone 7. slow-ish

⏹️ ▶️ John for a Mac, but plenty fast to just do a proof of concept dev work on it. Unfortunately, the T2 is doing

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff in there. It’s not just hanging around for the hell of it, right? The T2, in addition to running

⏹️ ▶️ John the touch bar and doing whatever other stuff like that, it also is like the I-O controller for the SSDs and it does

⏹️ ▶️ John video processing. Although you could probably eke out some more headroom in the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John by shoving something else, it’s not even running, like it’s running Bridge OS or whatever the hell. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s busy. The T2 is busy. and anyone who has a T2 Mac knows

⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, it’s taken a while for the T1 and T2 chips to shake out in terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of driver support and having weird issues, not just related to the touch bar, but in general. I really

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t think Apple would try to shoehorn anything else onto that T2. I really think it’s busy doing other things, running a different operating

⏹️ ▶️ John system. So I think we can set that one aside. That said, if there’s a T3

⏹️ ▶️ John or something in future Macs, maybe that has more headroom, I don’t know. but like, I feel like the chips

⏹️ ▶️ John that are in your computer now are doing stuff. So, you know, especially that

⏹️ ▶️ John one. I wouldn’t want the thing that’s controlling reads and writes from my SSD to all of a sudden be running like

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac software on it, right? You know, our Mac software on it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Another suggestion was cloud. Hey, why do they have to give anyone hardware at all? Why not just say, we have

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of virtual our Macs in the cloud and you can just sort of remote desktop into them and

⏹️ ▶️ John run your software on there and just trust us, those are all running on ARM. That way we don’t have to distribute hardware to anybody.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s kind of laggy, but you don’t really care. And you just want to make sure your software works.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, they could do that. But does that sound like an Apple-y thing to do to you? I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it sounds like a Google-y thing, maybe. It doesn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, not that I’m saying Apple doesn’t do, you know, it doesn’t have any cloud expertise. Obviously things like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the photo, the iCloud photo library, and you know, CloudKid.

⏹️ ▶️ John and like Apple’s gotten a lot better at the cloud stuff than it used to be. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the cloud, Arm Max and the cloud strike me as not an Apple style

⏹️ ▶️ John approach. And in the end, developers would much prefer to have hardware in front of them, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John reducing the lag, being more realistic, having more control over it, and you know, if you have to like mess with it or reset it

⏹️ ▶️ John or poke it or prod it, doing it, you know, remotely over the cloud is a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit of a distance. And like Marco said about the ARM card, that seems like a lot of work for a thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s just gonna be a brief transition and then eventually we’ll all just have ARM Macs to test on. So I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s gonna happen. And the final one is software only. Not in a cloud, not anything,

⏹️ ▶️ John like there’ll be no ARM hardware at all. All there will be is like an ARM simulator, essentially an ARM emulator

⏹️ ▶️ John that you run on your Intel Mac. And it’s an actual emulator that emulates

⏹️ ▶️ John all the ARM hardware. It’s like, not even like VMware VMware uses native instruction set. It’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John literal emulation. Yeah, that could work, but in the end,

⏹️ ▶️ John developers want to run their software on actual hardware if possible, and

⏹️ ▶️ John if Apple’s making this hardware anyway, I feel like they can come up with some kind of solution that involves actual

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware. I don’t think they would go through the pretty big effort to try to make

⏹️ ▶️ John good enough software emulation of ARM. What they should be doing is figuring out how to emulate x86

⏹️ ▶️ John on ARM and not figuring out how to emulate ARM on x86. So that also seems like a lot of effort

⏹️ ▶️ John for not a big payoff. So of all these choices, I think the one I like the best is the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Mini because it is potentially smaller and

⏹️ ▶️ John cheaper than an ARM laptop and it is still real hardware and it lets Apple reuse some

⏹️ ▶️ John of its assets. But honestly, with all these discussions, just because Apple has done

⏹️ ▶️ John CPU transitions twice in the past and we can look at what they did during those times for helping developers

⏹️ ▶️ John really has no bearing on what they’ll do this time. It was it was a long time ago. Things have changed. Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John has changed. Developers have changed. The world has changed, which is why I think it’s worth even just discussing all the different options like

⏹️ ▶️ John cloud and software only and the Apple TV and stuff like that. But who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, assuming this all goes off as planned next week, you know, there’ll be,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, hopefully some news related to this, but But I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine them announcing a CPU transition and also not at the developer conference telling developers

⏹️ ▶️ John how it is that they’re expected to port their applications, because that’s kind of the point of telling developers

⏹️ ▶️ John they want to know this. So we’ll have the answer to this in a week or so, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. The more people wrote in and we heard various rumblings, the more I think the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Mini is the most likely solution here. Because basically, they could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost just release the ARM Mac Mini today. Like it could just be the first ARM Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like okay, here’s the Mac Mini. It’s a low profile product. It doesn’t need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any of the fancy power management stuff as laptops and everything. One area

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I’m especially curious about is Thunderbolt. While it started out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as an Intel only thing, there were some effort until I think officially started

⏹️ ▶️ Marco licensing it to other people or opened it up to other people about a couple years ago officially.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I don’t think any of those, you know, open to other people products have actually come out yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There is also the kind of like bundling of Thunderbolt 4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into USB that is happening. Like USB 4 or Thunderbolt 4, whatever, somehow, whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the next big version is of Thunderbolt and USB, I think it’s basically unified now. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think that’s out yet. And I don’t think that’s anywhere near ready to be out yet. So if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they were to make an ARM Mac mini, even for just development purposes, how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would it output video to a monitor? Like maybe it might be HDMI only.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That seems, it’s possible, but I think unlikely. They could have some kind of weird Thunderbolt

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hack, or maybe it could be kind of like the iPad Pro where it only supports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB 3 over those ports and not actually Thunderbolt, so it wouldn’t work with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any of Apple’s own monitors. but well, Apple’s one currently produced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco monitor or the last few that they made. So like that’s one option as well, again, kind of a crappy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco option, but you know, in the context of a dev kit, it might not matter so much,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s something that they do have to solve. And that also just goes to show like quite how much of a project it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get our Macs, because you have to deal with all the IO that you have either,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, IO types and technologies and needs that either don’t exist on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPads or only exist in a significantly reduced way to date. So that’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that actually, like USB4 seemed like the kind of thing it would be worth waiting for before they even released these things. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they are waiting for USB4, who knows? But yeah, for the purposes of a dev kit, definitely I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think the Mac Mini is the most likely option at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not too worried about the Thunderbolt thing, like, as it is free and open and anyone can license it. And, you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ John the relationship between Apple and Intel is such that I would imagine that Apple would have no problem

⏹️ ▶️ John being first out the gate with a fully certified, custom-made, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco For this reason, though?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, no, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hey, we’re gonna work really closely with you to cut our heads off.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but Intel’s other option is, okay, well then we won’t work with you. And then Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John does want Apple’s business and other things like cell phone modems and stuff. And so, you know, Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John needs Apple more than Apple needs Intel, and Intel knows it. So I feel like that they could definitely, And this would have been things

⏹️ ▶️ John that they’ve been working on for years to like build a system on a chip with Thunderbolt built in And when they when they started that

⏹️ ▶️ John project Intel, you know Was probably enthusiastic about it because it’s probably three and a half years ago And same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing with us before like the same way that Apple purportedly had such influence on the the USB C connector

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything I imagine the us before standard has had some influence from Apple as well. So I’m not really

⏹️ ▶️ John worried I feel like the Apple will have the iOS situation Sorted out when when they need to

⏹️ ▶️ John and for the dev kit like you said, they don’t need to. A dev kit, you just slap something in a dev kit. Dev kit could just have a complete

⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt controller in there. Like it doesn’t have to have any relation to any hardware they’re ever gonna ship if they don’t need it to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also thought about things like, are they gonna provide different amounts of RAM so that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can test your app with different amounts of RAM? Or stuff like that that you don’t really think about in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS land, because everything is just the same. But on a Mac, are they gonna give dev kits with only eight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gigs of RAM, because that is the minimum that people would probably have? or are they going to give them with 16

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because otherwise it might be hard to test some really big apps on it? Like who knows? Like I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all those like little tiny questions are all probably big pains in the butt to Apple in developing such a thing. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we don’t we don’t even think about it really because like it just hasn’t even come up you know in our in our speculation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco level at this point. But it is all stuff that you kind of have to worry about.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well but the amounts of RAM that exists today is irrelevant right because nobody’s going to be running an ARM

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac on existing hardware or an ARM Mac OS on existing hardware. So if they know that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the minimum amount of RAM going forward is 16 gigs, then that, I guess that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what they would provide, right? Because it’s only going to be new hardware that is going to be running these chips. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even if 8 exists in the wild, it doesn’t matter for the purposes of this conversation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s true. But like, does that mean like, if you’re developing like Photoshop for ARM, you have to build it on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a like a 16 gig machine? That’s the only configuration they offer for the dev

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John kit.

⏹️ ▶️ John Doesn’t Apple have that memory pressure tool? Like, they could ship it with tons of RAM and just let people use the memory pressure tool to

⏹️ ▶️ John simulate what it would be like to have less memory. I don’t know. I feel like that’s the least of people’s concerns.

⏹️ ▶️ John Most people just want to get their software so it doesn’t crash.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t issue illegal instructions or use some data format

⏹️ ▶️ John or byte ordering that makes the ARM CPU flip out. a good old, but that stuff will sort itself out.

What if ARM Air beats all Pros?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Todd McCann writes, and this is kind of related, thoughts on how Apple spins it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if the ARM MacBook Air is faster than most or all of the MacBook Pro models.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is a really interesting question, and I’m sure there are examples in history where this has happened. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess the October event that Marco and I were at where they kind of didn’t really talk that much about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the difference or how much quicker the iPad Pro, the then new iPad Pro was than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the MacBook Air. And I think just focusing on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey battery life perhaps would be the most obvious answer to me. Like not even talking about speed, but more saying, hey, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new MacBook Air, if that’s what it is, this new MacBook Air gets 89 billion hours on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one charge. It’s amazing. And it’s great and so on, and not even really talking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about speed. And oh, it’s also very fast. And we didn’t really make compromises on speed and maybe leave it there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why wouldn’t they brag about the speed? They would say this new ARM MacBook Air is faster than our old

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Pro. And you may say, well, if you don’t have a new MacBook Pro, what you’re saying is the MacBook Air is

⏹️ ▶️ John faster than your current MacBook Pro. And they’d say, yeah, isn’t it amazing how great our Macs are? And of course, the

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Pro will eventually become ARM or whatever, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re comparing it to their old model, right? And I don’t think they would hurt the sales of the, because

⏹️ ▶️ John pros are buying the existing Intel MacBook Pro or Mac Pro or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John because they needed to run their existing software, right? Or like, I don’t think it would say, oh, I was

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna buy a MacBook Pro, but now that the ARM Macs are out, I’m gonna buy that and not be able to run any of the software that I need to run.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is not actually an issue. I think they would brag about it like crazy and say, isn’t this amazing?

⏹️ ▶️ John Now our lowest end computer is faster than the highest. And honestly, that’s not an unrealistic thing

⏹️ ▶️ John to imagine. Certainly in single-threaded, it should be. And then maybe even multi-threaded, depending on how many cores

⏹️ ▶️ John there are in the MacBook Air ARM CPU thing. So I think Apple, this is a problem Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John would love to have.

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Racial Equity & Justice Initiative

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tim Cook wrote on Twitter, the unfinished work of racial justice and equality call

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us all to account. Things must change and Apple’s committed to being a force for that change. Today,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am proud to announce that Apple’s racial equity and justice initiative with a $100 million commitment. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just had to show us up, Tim. We put some we put some links in the show notes. People have been donating, but you got to show us up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see how it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In all fairness, his pockets are deeper than ours.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And all the things with companies announcing that they’re giving some amount of

⏹️ ▶️ John money, the sport on Twitter is to calculate what that would be based on a normal person’s income.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like Facebook gave like a million dollars or something. That’s like you giving $1.32, right? So $100 million at least is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey a number

⏹️ ▶️ John with a little bit of heft, but honestly compared to Apple’s market share, market cap, or whatever the amount of cash

⏹️ ▶️ John they have on hand. $100 million is the least Apple could do, don’t you think?

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, there’s a good video attachment if you wanna see Tim emoting

⏹️ ▶️ John into the camera. All this corporate communication in the coronavirus world is weird because

⏹️ ▶️ John it is like higher production value than you sitting in front of your computer in a dark room for your Zoom meetings.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s not up to Apple’s usual standards because it’s like, I mean, I guess Tim probably did come into the office

⏹️ ▶️ John and maybe had someone set up a camera or maybe he did it himself, but it’s kind of quaint to see

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of prosumer level media coming out of these multi-bazillion dollar corporations

⏹️ ▶️ John just because we’re all, you know, social distancing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And totally unrelated, Apple’s head of diversity and inclusion is left,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is a little uncomfortable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. It’s, it’s not great timing for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, I don’t think any of us know this. This just came out what today. So I don’t think any of us know enough about the situation

⏹️ ▶️ John to know is this a good thing or a bad thing. It’s just that things are happening, let’s say, on these

⏹️ ▶️ John fronts at various companies. Apple is no exception. I’ll put a link in the show notes of the story where you can read about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And, you know, with the exit of Christy Smith, who is, quote,

⏹️ ▶️ John leaving Apple to spend more time with her family. I don’t know if that’s a euphemism, but that’s what the press release said,

⏹️ ▶️ John or the quote from Apple said in this article.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is that ever not a euphemism? I don’t know. I mean, every like literally every time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some high power executive or high profile executive, you know, leaves or gets fired or whatever, they always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say to spend more time with their family and you know, I like spending time with my family. That’s the kind of thing I might actually do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But does that really happen at that? Like in these

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco cases,

⏹️ ▶️ John it has to happen like when when high powered executives actually stop working like they’ve made their millions

⏹️ ▶️ John and they don’t want to work anymore. They are leaving to spend more time in there. So it’s got to be true at least once in everybody’s

⏹️ ▶️ John career, right? Like you’re not unless they don’t have a family or something. But yeah, but it is

⏹️ ▶️ John a euphemism. So we’ll see if the person immediately gets another job at another company, then it was obviously BS. But if they don’t and they never

⏹️ ▶️ John work again, and which is totally plausible for people at this level in Apple that they would have enough money

⏹️ ▶️ John to not have to work again, especially with all their stock and everything. Who knows? But anyway, diversity inclusion will be reporting

⏹️ ▶️ John to Deidre O’Brien, who is the head of HR and which she’s also put in

⏹️ ▶️ John front and charge of retail. Am I remembering that right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John I keep up with all the palace intrigue at Apple. But anyway, things are happening over there. They’ve given $100 million

⏹️ ▶️ John and the head of diversity inclusion is out. Hopefully things are changing for the better.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed.

Casey’s new MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I mentioned earlier that I am recording on a brand new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computer this week. I received my 13-inch MacBook Pro, I think, late last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week, if I remember correctly, and I am using it to record this episode just to play Everything’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Safe and get that out of the way before I have no alternative options very soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I thought I’d talk about what I think of modern Mac laptops, laptops because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you recall, I had one of Marco’s beloved 15-inch MacBook Pros when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was still at my jobby job, which was two years ago now, by the way, my how time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey flies. And at the same time, I had my beloved MacBook Adorable,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is the single port MacBook, just MacBook, not MacBook Air, not MacBook Pro, just MacBook.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That thing is still kicking aside from occasionally typing more letters than I’ve asked it to.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think it will soon become, and I think it will soon become Erin’s computer. And she

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will finally, after all these years, retire the one that has gone in the drink like 17 times.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s exciting. But yeah, I finally got this 13-inch MacBook Pro. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know if I ever said it on the show, but I did end up going with 32 gigs of RAM and one terabyte hard drive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did that because I figured, and the same reason I went MacBook Pro, one of the reasons I went MacBook Pro rather than Air,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want this computer to last a few years. I don’t want to have to replace this in a year. He says now,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not knowing what the ARM MacBooks look like, but I don’t want to be forced to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey upgrade this in a year. And so I want something that’ll last a bit. And I don’t want a 16-inch, even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey though I would absolutely have that if it was my only computer, since it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not my only computer, and I have this wonderful iMac Pro actually right behind it right now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What I did was I went 13-inch because I really want something as close as I can get to my adorable, but that’s actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey useful. So here we are. I, and I have my first touch bar,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I’ve only ever used this. I’ve only ever used the touch bar at like the Apple store for like five minutes, or my dad’s 13

⏹️ ▶️ Casey inch MacBook Pro that’s a couple of years old now for like five or 10 minutes. Um, but yeah, I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’d talk about a few things. Um, first of all, I’ve been touting for a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And in fact, this is probably going to come up in an ask ATP later. if we have time anyway, I’ve been touting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Brew Bundle, which is kind of like Bundler on Ruby. And what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it basically does is it allows you to say, here’s all the Homebrew stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would like to install. And you just put a list together and then you say, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Homebrew, look at that file and download all the things. And this can also include GUI apps,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it can include Mac App Store apps, and it works really well. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of the reason I’ve gotten to this point of believing my computers are to some degree

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ephemeral is because all the stuff I really care about is in the cloud or on my Synology.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So like code, for example, is on GitHub, pictures are on the Synology and in the cloud.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I don’t really have like Office or like Pages documents anymore. That hasn’t been a thing for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me in years. And even still, I have that on the Synology and in cloud services. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what makes these computers feel ephemeral is that I can basically type one command and get 80

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to 90 percent of the way to having my computer be the way I want it to be. My

⏹️ ▶️ Casey installations are just those. That they’re installations. They don’t tweak settings. They don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey adjust this or that to just the way I like it. But it does work out really nicely to get kind of a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey steady state, not a steady state, like a base state, like a foundation of the pyramid

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with only really one command, which is super awesome. That being said, I was doing this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was having it install some things and I don’t remember if it was at Xcode, doing the Xcode installation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or if it was somewhere else, but all of a sudden, oh no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, that’s a fan I hear. I haven’t heard a fan come from a laptop in years.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t like this at all. This isn’t good at all, and here it is. me, the guy who makes fun of you two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey idiots, for being so deeply offended by any sort of noise whatsoever. I’m mostly looking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at you, John. Any sort of noise whatsoever. And suddenly I find myself, after having two or two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a half years, whatever it’s been, of not having a fan in my laptop, I hear this thing just spin up and I’m just disgusted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by it. And it’s ridiculous how just gross it felt.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now with that said, it doesn’t spin up the fans very often. not been egregious by any means, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was so startling and striking that even as I was watching TV and kind of multitasking,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could still hear these fans and I found it so incredibly gross. Now, that being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, the touch bar. I am only a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week in and I don’t know what to think about the touch bar.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey My initial impression was, Oh, this is kind of clever. And then it became, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can’t get to like volume easily. It’s like a two-step process for volume and for brightness and who

⏹️ ▶️ Casey knew how often I adjusted volume and brightness I guess I do it a lot because it’s really annoying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey having to do the little slidey dance Like I know you can keep your finger on the on the touch bar and slide left and right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that is that is kind Of nice, but I don’t know. I find the not having the control

⏹️ ▶️ Casey strip frustrating now. I should state plainly up front I haven’t really done any sort of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey System level tweaks to the touch bar. I haven’t gone in to figure out like I think there’s a way you can always have the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey control strip active or do other tweaks like that. I haven’t really done any of that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also haven’t noticed any particularly stellar use cases of the Touch Bar. I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only done a smidgen of Xcode development on this thing, and so I have a feeling once I get used to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the options that Xcode puts on the Touch Bar, I might end up liking it quite a bit more. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I touch type and because I don’t look down at my fingers while I’m typing, I just don’t see it that often, and this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not an original thought. People have been saying this for years now. But I just don’t see it that often and it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t offend me. I’m not grossed out by it. I’m not sure it has really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey brought anything to the table though. Then I installed BetterTouchTool. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I use BetterTouchTool years and years and years ago when it was pretty new. I used it because I wanted to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some more interesting swipes on my then brand new Magic Mouse. Then I put it away after having used it for like a year

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or two and hadn’t looked back since. But I was vaguely aware that you can do some nifty stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the Touch Bar and Better Touch Tool. And so I installed it, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that has changed, dramatically changed, the way I feel about the Touch Bar.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because what I have right now is, I have it set up, and it’s very simple at the moment, but I have it set

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up such that it has a little battery meter for when the battery’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey being discharged. it has a little icon which is a little emoji that’s a button

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that will let me flip back and forth from day to night mode, which I don’t really do that often, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I found it’s often enough that I’m using this machine at night where I’d prefer it to be in dark mode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And for whatever reason, it doesn’t automatically switch to dark mode until either I’m not using it or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s well after sunset, whatever the case may be. So having a little toggle on there’s really cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I also wrote a little shell script that will figure out how many members we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have. And I put a little thing on the touch bar that’ll show me right there how many ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Casey members we have, which, which right now is not that exciting, because it’s pretty much leveled off. But at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey first was super freaking cool. I have this little display on my touch bar that shows how many members we have. How awesome is that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I have this little like widget area on there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Don’t actually answer you how awesome that is.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I think it’s super

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re reinventing iStat menus in the touch bar.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I am. In so many ways, I really am.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should have like, oh, god. I just, I’m picturing you

⏹️ ▶️ John coding away on your fancy new laptop and accidentally brushing against the thing that changes into dark

⏹️ ▶️ John mode, like having your whole screen change to dark. And then you brush it again, and it changes back to light.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, talk about, I mean, I know it’s in theory non-destructive, but that is a severe change.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, that’s my question for you, I guess. Do you find yourself accidentally brushing your fingers up against the touch bar? Has that not happened to

⏹️ ▶️ John you yet?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Not that it definitely has happened, but not that often. I can’t recall a time I have grazed the dark mode

⏹️ ▶️ Casey toggle that I’ve set up. But one thing I have noticed, and I don’t know if it’s because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am hitting the touch ID, which, by the way, I didn’t even have this in show notes, but oh, man, touch ID is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice. Like just for one password, if nothing else, touch ID is super nice. I use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my Apple, you know, my Apple Watch is always on my wrist. So for unlock, it doesn’t really get me that much. But for one password,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s great. But anyways, to answer your question, I feel like maybe because it’s Touch ID, maybe it’s something else, but I feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I’m grazing the Siri button fairly often when I have the little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey minuscule control strip or whatever it’s called, where it’s just three or four icons. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John the first thing

⏹️ ▶️ John everybody removes is that Siri button. Yep, just that button.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco customize all the built-in stuff too. Just yank that right off there. Oh, cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I keep, I think, three or four things there. So I have, in the upper right, I always have the show desktop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, because that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco F11 or whatever normally, and so it puts it kind of near where it was. And then I have brightness,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco volume, and play pause. That’s it. And then I just, I let the system do the rest of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve tried BetterTouchTool. I ran it for a few days. I couldn’t really get into it myself.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not really my style of how to do things, and I couldn’t configure, I just couldn’t figure out a configuration I liked. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just, it’s a little fiddly for me. But everybody always writes in and suggests it, so I’m glad you found some use for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, I don’t want to make this whole thing about like, you know, how much I hate the touch bar because we don’t have time for that again, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the benefit I find to it is almost none. One thing I actually like about it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the auto-fill suggestions on filling out web forms. That is the only thing about it that is an improvement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for my life. Because otherwise, like it turns out all that stuff you mentioned at the beginning of this, like it turns

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out you adjust brightness and volume a lot. Yeah, everybody does. on a laptop, those are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, very commonly done things. And with the Touch Bar, what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used to be one key press is now at least one tap, because you have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tap to open up the volume thing, and then you have to slide it over. And even if you do the thing where you tap and hold

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just move your finger, you’re still doing at least one tap. And it’s worse, because you have to look a little bit more closely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see if you’re actually hitting it. And if you’re watching a video, the Touch Bar will have probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gone to sleep since the last time you touched it. So first you have to tap it to wake it up. Then you have to actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco adjust the thing. And so it makes this very common thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have more friction than it had before. Sometimes significantly more. And then what’s even better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is quite often, I don’t know if you’ve been using it long enough to run into this yet, quite often the touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will just freeze. And you’ll have to run some command to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reboot the touch bar to make it work again. And it’s had this problem ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since the Touch Bar started, almost five years ago, or almost four years ago. It’s just buggy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So in addition to being questionably designed and of extremely controversial utility,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s also just been really buggy its entire existence. And it seems like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not working on it at all. Like, it has gotten no love,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no changes, no updates, and apparently no bug fixes for its entire life.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and yet someone loves it so much, whose opinion matters so much, I think it’s Phil,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it’s on every single Pro laptop and you cannot remove it. Someone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really important loves this thing and refuses to offer an option without it, but not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough to actually make it good, or to fix its basic bugs. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just drives me nuts. Everything about it, it drives me nuts. But anyway, you can keep going with the positive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parts of this review, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey the Fudge Bar is actually one of those things.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and John, you never really interact with the Touch Bar because you’re always on an external keyboard. Is that right? Even with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your work computer?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I use the keyboard a lot now. Because I mean, I got tired of switching back and forth, so I just used it. Especially

⏹️ ▶️ John since I’m now kind of wandering around the house to escape my kids and their Zoom meetings for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco school, at least, right? So a lot of times

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s good that I’m on a laptop for work, so I’ll go someplace else and actually work on the laptop as a laptop. But I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John long since given up on the Touch Bar. I used it for more than a year to try to like, you know, do all the tweaking,

⏹️ ▶️ John remove the buttons, customize. I just never ended up using it. I don’t accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John hit it that much anymore. I think I probably accidentally hit the area where the Siri was, because I was accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John activating Siri all the time, and once I removed that, that wasn’t a problem, but I have it set to be pretend you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of keys mode. So it just shows F1, F2, like that’s permanently, it doesn’t even change

⏹️ ▶️ John per app anymore. Because I was getting distracted by it changing. You know, it would change, like I said, Xcode, it changes

⏹️ ▶️ John to custom things, and Safari, it shows the thumbnails, and just, I didn’t even need that visual noise in my

⏹️ ▶️ John life. So now it literally is a worse version of buttons for me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I’m not trying to convince either of you that you’re wrong or anything, but my initial impression is, Hey, that’s a neat thing. And, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I like it so far.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If there is one of us who would like it, it’s you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s true. I mean, I’m not convinced I will like it again, or I will continue to like it in like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a month or two. But sitting here now it’s, it’s novel and interesting and neat. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool, I guess. But in general, the laptop is really great. Hey, did you know what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys? I have a actually breaking piece of news. Having more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than one port on a laptop is really freaking convenient. Who knew?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Who knew that that would be so convenient? Why didn’t you guys tell me about this a long time ago? Because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s so convenient. Turns out. Turns out indeed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s so, it was so delightful having, you’re not having to get a dongle out just to plug in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two things at once. And that actually brings me to, you know, one of the things I’d been plugging in fairly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey often is a, uh, is an ethernet adapter because one of the few

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that I wish was still on these computers, you know, I could live without the SD card, whatever, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t even necessarily need a old USB port. Like I’d probably prefer it, but I don’t need it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you know what I really wish was in these darn computers was an ethernet jack. I know it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would make them way too big and in or to just it would be bad in so many ways

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I would totally take an ethernet jack I would even take one of those heinous like pop-out ones we were talking about last week

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would take one of those man. I absolutely would but anyway I’ve been plugging in these dongles and the particular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey USB C Ethernet dongle I had that I’ve that I’ve had since the adorable was new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey For whatever reason and maybe this is something I missed but it has been extremely flaky and it seemed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it was particularly perturbed about being placed… how many alliterations can I get in here?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was particularly perturbed about being placed on the… no, not the port side. Darn it! I almost

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had another one! On the right-hand side of the computer. And I don’t know, aren’t there like some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey weird differences about the left and right side ports or something like that? Or is that only about power delivery?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There have been certain models where the, I believe the right side ports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t have as much data transfer bandwidth on their Thunderbolt controller as the other side ports,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just because the CPU only had a certain amount of bandwidth or a certain amount of PCIe lanes or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was, I believe, limited always only to the 13-inch four-port models. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if that’s true of the current generation or not. Regardless, it wouldn’t matter for the purposes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of your Ethernet port. It would matter if you’re hooking up big monitors and stuff or massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco RAID arrays that actually max out that bandwidth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sure. And so I have a new USB-C ethernet adapter coming, because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I suspect this one is just a piece of garbage. But yeah, having multiple ports, really, really cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really enjoy that. Who knew?

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ARM early days

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got to thinking both before it arrived and after it arrived, like, am I going to want to return this in a week

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after we know potentially what’s going to be happening with an ARM

⏹️ ▶️ Casey CPU and new fancy laptops? And I think I stand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by what I said last week, which is I can see myself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey folding when it comes to like some sweet new industrial design or even just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a, you know, black spray painted black color because God I wanted that black polycarbonate MacBook so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey badly. But short of that, I don’t think I want to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be on the bleeding edge of an ARM transition. Sitting here now, I don’t have any Mac apps. I have no plans for Mac apps.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I don’t think I want to go through all the, the,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, like pain of having all of my software stop working,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is what you guys were talking about earlier. Like, I don’t know, and we don’t necessarily need to get into it, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say stupid stuff like FFmpeg and YouTube DL and other like shell stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I use really often. Do those have, you know, installations

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for ARM? Will somebody put those together? I mean, I don’t have any interest in building this from source, although I know I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could, like, how is that stuff going to work? And you can, you too can treat that as rhetorical or not, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think I want to be on the bleeding edge of having all of having my entire tool chain not work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so even if there is some sweet and sexy new Mac book announced next week,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even if it has some sweet new industrial design sitting here today, ignorance is lists.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think I would want to, Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That pun just happened.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I, I went there. I’m gonna get so much email. Anyway, I don’t think I want a new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ARM laptop right now. In two or three years, oh yes I do. But sitting here now, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think so. Am I crazy to think that or does that make sense?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, we went through one transition when the Mac, one CPU transition when the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John had a bunch of, you know, command line utilities, right? So the PowerPC to Intel happened in

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac OS X era. And so we know how this shakes out. What happened when you had PowerPC

⏹️ ▶️ John Max and you had whatever, FFmpeg or Wget or whatever the hell you were using

⏹️ ▶️ John from the command line? And then the Intel Max came out, and yeah, the people who maintain those projects tweak the makefiles

⏹️ ▶️ John so that they built on x86 Max. I mean, you may say, oh, well, they were just going to x86, and it’s easy, all those things are already built in

⏹️ ▶️ John x86. But it’s not the same. We have different compilers, different operating system. You can’t just use the Linux

⏹️ ▶️ John makefile on a Mac. Anyone who’s tried to compile something from source knows that, unless the program is very simple.

⏹️ ▶️ John There are obviously tweaks you have to make. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten one to work. Yeah, there are obviously tweaks

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to make. But yeah, I feel like the, this gets into a whole other issue that we may touch on in a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit, but like the people who maintain these projects, whether it’s YouTube DL or FFmpeg or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, at the time of the Intel transition and probably now, it’s not unreasonable to think

⏹️ ▶️ John some of them, some of those developers who work on those projects might be using Macs themselves. And so are therefore

⏹️ ▶️ John highly motivated and in a position to know how to, make it so that they build on the

⏹️ ▶️ John RMX. And obviously the more obscure the command line you’re telling them you’re using, the less likely it is that

⏹️ ▶️ John someone will actually update the make files for it, but eventually all software that is in active use and being developed

⏹️ ▶️ John will get ported. That’s my hope, unless something really terrible happens related to this,

⏹️ ▶️ John which I think is the topic that I just moved up in the notes because I want to touch on it now, because I won’t have a chance to

⏹️ ▶️ John talk about this once W3C goes and we know all the answers. I’ll try to make this quick because

⏹️ ▶️ John I do want to get to the topic that’s after that. I was thinking about this after last week’s show when we were

⏹️ ▶️ John going through like, oh here’s what the ARM Mac, you know, looks like it’s coming, let’s speculate about what it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ John to be like and you know, we talked sort of in the, about the stuff that’s likely to happen,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But a lot of the feedback as evidence from the follow up about the dev kits has been, okay, well we talked about

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s likely to happen, what about stuff that seems like it might be unlikely but is still

⏹️ ▶️ John plausible? And one, you know, my description of a theme that ran through all that feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John is, the thing in the notes here, is a new breed of Macs. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the idea is that an architecture transition is an opportunity to change stuff up.

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t have to, there’s nothing about an architecture transition that says you have to change the rules of the game and really, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, redo, but it’s an opportunity to do that. It’s a discontinuity. Things are going to be all screwed up anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John so if there’s something you want to do, do it now because when everything’s up in the air it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the perfect place to do it. Get all the pain out of the way at once. A lot of the pain they’ve gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John out of the way already just from getting off of 64-bit so they don’t have to have 32-bit ARM CPUs, deprecating old

⏹️ ▶️ John APIs, getting rid of carbon, lots of stuff has happened leading up to this.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the transition to ARM gives Apple the opportunity to really rethink everything

⏹️ ▶️ John about this product line, way up to and including no one suggested this but I thought of it and

⏹️ ▶️ John again the least likely thing is you don’t need you know this new

⏹️ ▶️ John line of arm-based computers that run a mac os like

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t even need to be max they don’t they could run an operating system that’s not called just like they made ipad os like

⏹️ ▶️ John wow brand new operating system yeah I mean we all know it’s the ios that you’re running before you

⏹️ ▶️ John just gave it a new name what if apple just says the mac has run its course There’s no more Mac and now we

⏹️ ▶️ John have a new brand name for these computers that are basically, you know running Mac OS But we’re gonna give that

⏹️ ▶️ John operating system a new name because the one that runs on arm is not Mac OS it’s whatever OS and these are new whatever computers

⏹️ ▶️ John like rebrand right and Change all the rules about what it is now

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think this is gonna happen The Mac has a huge amount of value in it or ever but like that’s at one end of the spectrum if you

⏹️ ▶️ John use as a Spectrum the other end of the spectrum what we talked about last show It’s like oh, they’ll be max, but they have arm CPUs and you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ John a normal transition Between those two endpoints, though, there’s lots of interesting things that can happen. And I was

⏹️ ▶️ John just musing about them. One of them is, you hear a lot of people talk about, oh, will

⏹️ ▶️ John I not be able to run non-sandbox applications anymore? Will everything need to be notarized?

⏹️ ▶️ John Will I only be able to install apps from the Mac App Store unless I go into a developer mode? All

⏹️ ▶️ John the stuff that we’ve talked about in terms of security and running signed software, and all the way down to, oh, will I be

⏹️ ▶️ John able to build FFmpeg and just run it? it’s not signed or whatever? Will I not be able to download arbitrary applications

⏹️ ▶️ John without doing stuff like disabling system integrity, whatever the equivalent of that may

⏹️ ▶️ John be, like disabling security features? Is this the time that Apple can really lock down the Mac? Right? Again,

⏹️ ▶️ John nothing about the ARM transition says that that has to be the case, but we know Apple has wanted to and has been working

⏹️ ▶️ John towards making the Mac more secure, as secure as iPads

⏹️ ▶️ John and iPhones or whatever. This transition is an opportunity for them to change the rules

⏹️ ▶️ John of what constitutes a Mac to change all those rules about what software can be installed.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think any of that is likely, because again, what the hell is the point of the Mac if you’re just going to

⏹️ ▶️ John make it into an iPad running a weird OS, right? But I’m on the lookout for things like

⏹️ ▶️ John that happening now. And even though obviously getting rid of the Mac and calling it something else is ridiculous,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not putting it past Apple to give this new line of ARM-based

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs some kind of prefix or suffix or other kind of branding that distinguishes them

⏹️ ▶️ John from the Macs that came before it. Again, I don’t think it’s likely. We talked about the likely stuff last show. This is

⏹️ ▶️ John my last chance to say, here’s all the weird stuff that could happen, probably won’t, but could happen.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what the hell they would call it. I don’t know what the prefix or suffix could be, but it is an opportunity

⏹️ ▶️ John to distinguish, again, especially if you’re changing the rules to distinguish this new line of ARM-based Macs from

⏹️ ▶️ John the previous ones. If you’re changing the rules about what software can be loaded and sandboxing and third-party

⏹️ ▶️ John software and they’re more locked down or whatever, and you have a boatload of good news to share like, hey, these

⏹️ ▶️ John are the batteries last a long time and these are super fast or whatever, you can tack on a bunch of maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John not so appealing things in that same package and brand it as, you know, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t I’m not even speculate what a name might be but those are all things that are up in the air this

⏹️ ▶️ John goes back to what I was saying before was like just because what they did one thing from 68k

⏹️ ▶️ John to power PC and a similar thing from power PC to Intel doesn’t mean that they have to do the exact same

⏹️ ▶️ John playbook for this transition that was a long time ago and the the 68k one even

⏹️ ▶️ John longer ago Apple is free to make moves like that that it thinks is

⏹️ ▶️ John bringing it towards its new unified future where everything runs Swift UI and everything runs on an arm arm based CPUs that

⏹️ ▶️ John they build themselves and the iPad and the Mac move closer to each other. And like, there is this future that we

⏹️ ▶️ John seem to be moving towards. And this architecture change, if it actually happens, is

⏹️ ▶️ John a point where Apple can make all sorts of changes. And the thing is,

⏹️ ▶️ John even though most of the stuff I’ve laid out here is like, oh, they’re probably not gonna do that stuff, right? There’s something from

⏹️ ▶️ John this bucket of probably not going to do that’s going to be in there, like maybe a good thing that we think

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not going to do like, oh, you know, like last week, Mark was saying they’re probably not going to do boot camp. Maybe it turns out

⏹️ ▶️ John they do do boot camp and it’s good news. Hey, it was a thing that really we didn’t think they were going to do at least out of the gate,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they did it. Yay. But it could also be a, oh, by the way, this default security restrictions,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, don’t let anybody install any Mac outside the Mac app store, which developers would hate. And they’d have to tell

⏹️ ▶️ John everybody how to like, you know, disable, you know, go to system preferences and click the lock icon and enter your admin password

⏹️ ▶️ John and click a thing that lets you run applications. Don’t come to the Mac App Store. But if they’re gonna do that,

⏹️ ▶️ John now’s the time to do it. Because, especially if you, you know, these are branded differently or whatever. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John those are, I tried to be brief, I’m sorry. But those are my thoughts on a new breed of Macs. If there’s gonna be a new breed of

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs, uh, the spectrum from all the way from they’re not even called Macs anymore, to

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re exactly like we said last show, but with one thing that is either a bit of good news or bad news. That’s in

⏹️ ▶️ John my mind now, as we are, uh, you know, less than a week out from WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely possible. Um, oh, and before I forget some quick follow up,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, I just wanted to try to avoid a week of email from people telling us this Casey, all your FFM peg and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything’s stuff will be fine because it’s already compiled for arm because it runs on raspberry pies,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John uh, as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well as, um, there is some arm use in the server world as well. I know it’s not like super mainstream,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s also not super obscure at this point. Um, so a lot of stuff has been compiled for ARM already, just for the server world,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but definitely also for Raspberry Pis and stuff like that. So yes, while John said it’s not, you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco take those exact same makefiles and run them on Mac OS with that modification, I’m sure most of the hard work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has already been done. And so many of those packages should be able to be updated like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in Homebrew without too much effort, I would imagine. So anyway, that part, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you should worry about. The part you should worry about is closed source software. You know, all these open source

⏹️ ▶️ Marco packages, like somebody somebody can do the work if it hasn’t already been done and make a compile and make it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work but if you have some closed source app that you that you’re relying on that is not currently maintained

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s where you’re gonna have the problem. If there is a compatibility layer for running

⏹️ ▶️ Marco x86 code on the new RMAX which I honestly I think that’s a big if I wouldn’t actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expect one because I think it will be too slow and too crappy so if there is a compatibility layer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would expect it to only be around for a couple of years. It’s not gonna be in the OS forever, the same way Rosetta wasn’t in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the OS forever. But John, I think your concept, or your potential

⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea for what if they make other big changes to the Mac line, I don’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any new product name things necessarily. Like, cause I mean, what would they call

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it? Knowing today’s Apple, they would just call it the Apple Book. All the, they have no other good names.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even if they ditch Mac, like what would they call

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Book, the Apple Pro, iApple, I don’t, you know, they can’t make new names for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Macs anymore, they just.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, the Mac name has way too much value to digit. I was just pinning that as an end of a spectrum.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but so I wouldn’t expect a new name because I think having, giving the ARM products a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unique name or, you know, suffix or prefix or anything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that would only make sense if they were intended to only ever be part

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the product line, rather than replacing the entire product line. And I doubt that I really doubt that the case

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the the plan is for arm to go across the entire product line

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over a few years most likely. So I wouldn’t expect that to really be like a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t expect this to be a temporary or partial product line conversion. And for that reason, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t think the naming would actually change

⏹️ ▶️ John meaningfully. The thing to keep in mind, though, and this is weird for historical reasons, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they They did this with the PowerPC transition. They called them PowerMacs. They gave them all a

⏹️ ▶️ John prefix. Now it’s weird because they were already PowerBooks, but they were 68K. So I know it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John quite track exactly, but they literally said, they said, and now the new PowerMac because they had a PowerPC

⏹️ ▶️ John and they just called them PowerMacs forever and ever until, until eventually I

⏹️ ▶️ John think the Intel’s when they finally dropped it. But yeah, so it’s not inconceivable that that could

⏹️ ▶️ John happen. is obviously a cooler name than anything we can think of off the top of our head related to

⏹️ ▶️ John ARM. They’re sure as hell not going to call them ARM Macs or Apple Macs or A Macs or Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Arms or Mac Airs or like, you know, I’m so afraid to even speculate about Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John naming things, but the name prefix thing is not without precedent.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t predict it. It is obviously a less likely scenario. I’m much more interested in like, oh, now’s the time we change

⏹️ ▶️ John the security settings on you and make it more difficult for you to install stuff from the command line tools. So I’m more worried about that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s, first of all, that’s a valid concern because, you know, Apple, they do have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pattern of locking down the Mac slowly, more and more over time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco making things a pain in the butt, slowly, more and more over time, in the name of security. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly, I do think the ARM transition will totally remove and drop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any software API that is currently deprecated. So things like OpenGL,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think OpenGL will run on ARM ever. I think that’s just gone. So any software that uses it, it’s been deprecated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a couple years now I think. I seriously doubt that’ll make it over.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And again, Bootcamp I think is gone. I think anything related to x86 I would predict

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not supported at all. So we are going to have some losses there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But as for like, you know, bitter pills to swallow with the rest of the OS, any kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new restrictions on our software abilities or our hardware peripherals.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think it’s going to be, I don’t think there’s going to be any like you know massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes to what most people ever need to do, including developers you know because the reality is that they sell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of Macs to developers so I don’t think they would ever have things like making it so you can’t compile

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your own version of FFmpeg or anything like it might continue to be an increased pain in the butt but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re already on that track anyway. Like I don’t think it would be anything more of a pain in the butt than what we already have to deal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with with Catalina and its various BS. So I think they wanna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make this transition as kind of transparent and smooth as possible because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they don’t want is to ruin the Mac. You know, like they’re trying to make the Mac better,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco presumably, like I think they’ve shown a pretty good track record of that over the last couple of years now, after

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very dark time, but they’ve gotten through that, I think. we’re now in the light again,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, for the most part, except for Casey’s text bar, but otherwise like, you know, we’re forgetting there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so like, I, I trust them that like they’re trying to keep it good. Um, and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, I don’t think they’re going to use this opportunity to really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco break or like super unreasonably lock down a significant amount of new stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’ll be, you know, Mac iOS 10 dot, whatever, whatever we have to 16 for the next one,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Whichever is the first version that supports ARM, it’ll just be like any other Mac OS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco release, where things are a little bit more ratcheted down in certain ways, like you’re not gonna get unsigned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kernel extensions. You might not get any kernel extensions, who knows? But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think you’re gonna be dealing with stuff that is going to be a big pain in the butt or highly restrictive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to what almost anybody needs to do with their Mac. especially if you get rid of legacy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware support needs, which is a lot of reasons why you might need kernel extensions, for instance. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just say, all right, these new Macs only support USB whatever, peripherals that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco support standard whatever, if you have certain restrictions like that in place with new hardware, which would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty reasonable for new stuff, I don’t expect there to be big additional restrictions.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they want this transition to just be like, Here’s the Mac you already, here’s the Macs you’ve already had,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you know what this is, you know what to expect, it’s a Mac, it runs Mac apps. Asterisk,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that had been recompiled for ARM. And then that’s it, and no other meaningful restrictions.

⏹️ ▶️ John Kernel extensions are going away even if we don’t transition to ARM.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like that’s been

⏹️ ▶️ John a multi-year thing. Yeah, it’s just, and this is just an example of like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the transition being a place to just accelerate even existing plans. Like, oh, actually kernel extensions aren’t gonna go away in Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John until 10.17, but on ARM they go away in 10.16 just because how about we just never have them

⏹️ ▶️ John there? Then problem solved because nobody’s kernel extensions are written for ARM now, so we just say no They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John gone. They’ll probably be gone from x86 at the same time Anyway, I want to do two quick hits here before I move on to

⏹️ ▶️ John the next thing. You mentioned Intel You know emulation.

⏹️ ▶️ John What are our predictions? Marco already said he does not expect ARM macOS to have

⏹️ ▶️ John any form of x86 emulation so you can run old apps without recompiling them. Casey, your opinion? your guess,

⏹️ ▶️ John your prediction?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I would want there to be something like Rosetta or Rosetta 2, if you will. I think that would do a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to alleviate a lot of the pain of moving to a place where software

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t really exist if it wasn’t built by Apple. But I don’t know how possible that’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey based on the hardware. If this hardware is really as screaming fast as we hope, then maybe it would be doable.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Maybe it would be fine. I also think, though, that Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not afraid to use the stick rather than the carrot. And so it wouldn’t surprise

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me if Apple perceived it as, well, if we have Rosetta 2, that’ll let

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the developers that have x86 software not have a fire under their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bottoms to compile for ARM. And we really want them compiling for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ARM, so screw it, let’s just not offer it at all. And if they really need this software, they’ll virtualize

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with VMware or what’s the parallels, or whatever the case may be and do a Mac OS, you know, an x86

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac OS installation on top of that, and that’ll be good enough for them. So I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gonna say I want it to be there, but I don’t think it’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there, especially since Apple seems to be on their high horse about how mighty and powerful they are these days, which we’re about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to talk about.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, keep in mind, like anything, like, you know, we were talking earlier about, as when John was talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about options for a dev kit and there being a software only one and you you very quickly corrected

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yourself and you said simulator to emulator because the simulators

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for iOS apps are able to be really fast because you’re running native code the whole point of this transition

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be it would have to emulate arm like on the Intel and same thing in reverse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now if to run Intel software on arm you can’t just do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like full speed simulation or what hypervisors do with like virtual

⏹️ ▶️ Marco machines and stuff where you are able to run full native speed and native code you can’t do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and when you have a different architecture you have to emulate the whole thing and emulation is really slow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there are you know like Rosetta was a pretty advanced emulator I’m sure maybe there’s you know also you know similarly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know advancing techniques that we’ve developed since then that have made emulation a little bit better than it used to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s still a a really slow process. So, like running software in Rosetta was something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you could do it, and some stuff was, you know, you wouldn’t notice the speed difference,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but a lot of stuff you would. And so I don’t see that being a great solution for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people for most apps. And that’s why I don’t think Apple’s gonna ship it at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John So one thing from history that was going around on Twitter when people were discussing this, like the,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know for a name of it was, but the thing that emulated 68K on PowerPC,

⏹️ ▶️ John very quickly, I don’t know if it was on the first set of PowerMacs, but maybe on the second or third set of PowerMacs, could emulate

⏹️ ▶️ John 68K faster than any 68K Mac ever actually ran it. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the emulator was faster than the hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now, it helps that the PowerPC was much faster than 68K, and it also helps that that was in the period in the 90s or whatever, when

⏹️ ▶️ John chips were getting so much faster every year. And we just talked about Rosetta, but

⏹️ ▶️ John what I’m getting at is that both times, has done this, their emulators have been really

⏹️ ▶️ John good. Obviously, yeah, emulation is slower, but you know, both times, again, both times did

⏹️ ▶️ John it in the past. Moore’s law was much more in effect than it is today. So they took advantage of that

⏹️ ▶️ John and it gave them the backward compatibility story, a pretty good backward compatibility story. In fact, with the 68k

⏹️ ▶️ John to PowerPC, a backward compatibility story that Apple itself needed because they didn’t get their whole operating

⏹️ ▶️ John system onto PowerPC for like years after the transition, just because there was so much legacy stuff there

⏹️ ▶️ John but they did such a good job with those and I understand all the reasons that you both think they’re not gonna have one

⏹️ ▶️ John they all make sense to me but just something my gut is telling me because

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has done it twice before and they were so good at it that there’s enough institutional perhaps wrong-headed

⏹️ ▶️ John institutional momentum behind it that it would be part of the transition strategy and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John going to predict I probably wouldn’t put money on it but I’m going to be the odd one out here and predict if there actually

⏹️ ▶️ John is a a way to run x86 software on these arm things using emulation and yes it will be slower and yes it won’t be as

⏹️ ▶️ John good as either of the two transitions but i just i just feel like it’s in apple’s dna

⏹️ ▶️ John to do this and i have my fingers across like casey said i want it to be true and i think i just want it so much that

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m willing to predict the final thing we can’t take as long on this but those will be quicker names for mago is 10 16

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a story that we’ll put in the show notes where someone’s going through like things that apple has trademarked trying to pull the names

⏹️ ▶️ John out of it catalina came out of these trademarks the remaining ones that are still trademarked are Mammoth, Monterey,

⏹️ ▶️ John or Skyline. And of course, it could be something entirely new. Of Mammoth, Monterey, Skyline, and other

⏹️ ▶️ John of your choice, what would you predict as a 1016 name? Steven McLaughlin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If the arm transition is happening, it has to be Mammoth, right? Because it’s it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey marketing just plays itself.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Jared Polin Because Mammoths have arms?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven McLaughlin No, no, no, because it’s a Mammoth change. Jared Polin

⏹️ ▶️ John Mm-hmm.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven McLaughlin Like this, look at this Mammoth change, and it’s Mac OS Mammoth.

⏹️ ▶️ John the reasoning the reasoning works that tracks Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Marco man so I keep with the disclaimer that I don’t know anything about these actual places in California

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing yeah none of us know this is all just blind okay you can pick you can pick other you can a name of your choice it’s probably a city

⏹️ ▶️ John in California or maybe they’ll just break the name scheme and call it something totally different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah fair enough so it was mammoth Monterey was Thurman skyline

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mm-hmm that’s a that’s a place name not like the chili chain and Cincinnati, but that’s like a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apparently put

⏹️ ▶️ John it into Google

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maps. Okay, so I think the one that sounds the coolest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is Monterey. Therefore, that’s not the one they’re going to pick. I think the one they’re going to pick is Mammoth. It’s the weirdest.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John think I don’t know. I don’t know enough to pick an other. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John Monterey is the most likely, but I’m rooting for Skyline.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think Skyline would be a better one for sure. I just think that if I’m Apple, I would choose Mammoth.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steven Puckett Real-time follow-up, Skyline Chili still exists. Michael O’Brien I’m very excited. Steven Puckett It is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still a Cincinnati-based chili chain. Michael O’Brien Not in California. Steven Puckett No, definitely not.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We had them in Columbus, and I’m pretty sure, like, I don’t think it really leaves Ohio, though. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it traveled from Cincinnati to Columbus, halfway across the state, and that’s about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Michael O’Brien So, quickie, because I can’t resist now, and we’re never going to end this show. This is going to be a 12-hour show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do universal binaries come back, and are they still called universal binaries?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would imagine so. I mean, it would probably work the same way. Like, you know, the FAT binary system,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe, supports any number of architectures. So this would just be like another one that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be in there, potentially.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, not for the Mac App Store, because that will do what the Mac App Store does, which is strip down

⏹️ ▶️ John to just the code that your particular machine needs. But for individual developers, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’d be able to make them fat.

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Apple IAP rules vs. Hey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What is going on with Hey, the email app and inbox?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because we’re not saying that word. Stop.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Cut that out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also hate inbox, but you know, here we are. You know, I, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only have so many things I can be outraged about. And so I haven’t really followed this very closely and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey falling down to my job as as Chief Summarizer and Chief. But my understanding is,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and interrupt me when you’re ready, that they released this new email app, a pay email app.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the first run experience on the iPhone is basically put in your username and password.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you don’t have one, you need to figure out by magic or a divining rod where you need to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go in the rest of the world to get yourself a username and password. And I guess the initial

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app, 1.0.0, came out. And then when they tried to get 1.0.1 out,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then Apple said, no, you can’t do this because in-app purchase, in-app purchase, in-app purchase.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then there’s been a big brouhaha ever since. Mostly because David Hennemeyer Hansen is a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very well-known developer and CEO or CTO or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the internet and is from Basecamp. And what is it, 37 Signals? Is that right? Was that the old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco name? It was formerly 37 Signals. They made a product called Basecamp and it became the main

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing they did. And then I think eventually it became the only thing they did, and so they renamed the company to Basecamp.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, right, right. So, I mean, that’s kind of the extraordinarily too brief summary. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have feelings about this, but I don’t know if they’re fair because I haven’t looked into this enough. Which one of you would like to take me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through the deeper blow-by-blow summary of what’s actually happening?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think we need to go blow-by-blow, but I think this is, so this is interesting for a couple of reasons.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s interesting because of the timing. You know, we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John talked on this show over many, many years about, oh, App Store rejections, this was rejected, it seems like it shouldn’t have been.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, this is not a new story. It’s the shape of the same story. It’s like, oh, Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, tweaked the rules or changed them or interpreted them differently and it’s affecting this developer

⏹️ ▶️ John and it seems unfair and the developer, depending on who there are, complains about it. Like, that’s the same old story. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the timing is interesting for two reasons. One, it’s happening right before WWDC. Here we are, the

⏹️ ▶️ John week before WWDC, not great timing for one of these things to blow up, as Casey mentioned, because

⏹️ ▶️ John David Hennemar-Hansen is very loud on Twitter and is already famous, and there’s a lot of stories being written about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple doesn’t love that. You know Apple hates this. Apple does not want this to be a story anywhere,

⏹️ ▶️ John regardless of what the actual specifics of the

⏹️ ▶️ John issue. Apple hates it when there are stories like this. That’s why the things you say don’t run to the press. have to have

⏹️ ▶️ John this. And second is that Apple is in the process of, in various legal battles, and potentially

⏹️ ▶️ John even in the United States, antitrust rulings against

⏹️ ▶️ John them in the EU, and potential legislation in the United States going through Congress. And it’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not a good time for this issue to come up on that front either, because Apple’s lawyers are busy writing

⏹️ ▶️ John lawyerly-type press releases, disagreeing with decisions in the EU. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not tracking the individual legal cases here, but it’s like, you know, it’s anti-trust. It’s like, do these tech companies have

⏹️ ▶️ John too much power over the market? And it seems like there’s growing momentum in the various

⏹️ ▶️ John legislative bodies across this planet to see if there’s something that can be done to check,

⏹️ ▶️ John not just Apple, but all the big tech companies, you know, for all the reasons you would imagine. Privacy concerns, market

⏹️ ▶️ John power, competition, anti-competitive behavior. Apple has been down this road before with Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ John and the e-book thing, and they lost that one. This is just generally

⏹️ ▶️ John bad timing for Apple and maybe good timing for everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John else. This specific instance here, if I was

⏹️ ▶️ John to talk about this, I feel like I could talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John it with someone at Apple without reference to antitrust, to

⏹️ ▶️ John individual developers, to fairness and rule changing and power

⏹️ ▶️ John and monopolies and everything. The argument that I would make and I have always made

⏹️ ▶️ John and will continue to make on this specific issue is that it’s better for everyone, including

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, if Apple just gets out of its own way and lets people make better applications. We had the same

⏹️ ▶️ John conversation when the Kindle app was out there. The Kindle app is a better app if you can

⏹️ ▶️ John buy books on it. It just is right. And Apple doing everything

⏹️ ▶️ John in its power to make that not happen. Oh, you can’t even mention that you can go buy

⏹️ ▶️ John the things on This is all old news. I’m sure the rules have changed since then. But that whole

⏹️ ▶️ John thing of make it so the app doesn’t say anything about where you can sign

⏹️ ▶️ John up for Netflix. People would just have to know that because it wouldn’t be better in the app if you could sign

⏹️ ▶️ John up for Netflix right there in the app. And Apple would say, you can do that. Just give us 30%. And it’s like, Apple, we

⏹️ ▶️ John know it’s not gonna happen. No one wants to give you, Netflix does not want to give you 30% of their

⏹️ ▶️ John income or 30% of the signups that are through the app. Like, they used to do that and they don’t anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John And, you know, there’s a lot of money that went away. Same thing with Amazon. Amazon literally can’t give you 30% of every

⏹️ ▶️ John ebook sale because there’s not that much money to wring from that stone. And David Hennemeyer Hansen

⏹️ ▶️ John and Basecamp sure as hell don’t want to give you 30% of all the subscription. Like, no one wants to do that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John by making these rules and thinking if we make these rules, we will have enough power to force

⏹️ ▶️ John this to happen. like history shown, it just doesn’t happen. No one’s going to give you that money.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so all it does is it makes the apps worse in the App Store, apps that are inexplicably

⏹️ ▶️ John worse where you can’t do things that you would the developers want you to be able to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John The users want to do them, but it’s just not happening. This is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a situation where interest and incentives are correctly aligned to make better and better

⏹️ ▶️ John apps. Everything is aligned to be oppositional and to result in us getting worse apps and us getting

⏹️ ▶️ John worse apps in the end reflects poorly back on Apple. I’m sure they’ve heard this argument a million

⏹️ ▶️ John times like this is the whole debate. Is it better to try to go for that 30%? And of course, they have arguments about it. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John control and we don’t want to send you to a scammy website to use other people’s payment methods and yada, yada, yada, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the goal that Apple is shooting for a world

⏹️ ▶️ John where they have all the control and also get all the money and also have apps

⏹️ ▶️ John that have all the features the customers expect is never going to happen. Like the app store has

⏹️ ▶️ John been around long enough to know that’s not gonna happen. The companies will not give you or can’t, literally

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t and stay in business, give you that 30%. So given that that’s the case, stop trying to make

⏹️ ▶️ John fetch happen. Like you’re not gonna, Apple’s not, Apple’s not going to ever get it all.

⏹️ ▶️ John Best case scenario, we get this tense cold war where our apps are inexplicably stupider

⏹️ ▶️ John than they need to be, developers are cranky, and Apple’s platform has apps that are worse

⏹️ ▶️ John on Google’s platform, the competing platform, the dominant mobile platform apps

⏹️ ▶️ John have fewer restrictions in this particular regard and the apps are better for them. That’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John good for Apple. And so I, you know, every time one of these things comes up, I just hope that like whoever is

⏹️ ▶️ John arguing the side that I just articulated, which I’m surely has been argued inside Apple for years.

⏹️ ▶️ John I hope they get a little bit closer to winning. Like, so the more damaging and annoying this, this

⏹️ ▶️ John particular blow up is about hey, dot com, an email service being subjected

⏹️ ▶️ John to rules that other maps weren’t, but that are eventually rolling out across every like it’s, you know, it’s a story we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John seen before and it’s a sad story and it’s stupid and the restrictions don’t make any sense to consumers and the restrictions are

⏹️ ▶️ John very annoying slash company killing to the developers involved and we

⏹️ ▶️ John get worse apps like I hope I, you know, I’m excited that the

⏹️ ▶️ John DHH on Twitter is super loud because he can afford to be super loud and he’s using his

⏹️ ▶️ John fame to good effect and it happening through right in front of WWC with the antitrust stuff going on. I hope

⏹️ ▶️ John that all comes to head and let’s Apple before it’s too late give up

⏹️ ▶️ John on its on its impossible dream of having of making developers

⏹️ ▶️ John both give it 30% of the money and also make better applications for consumers. That’s that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John my feeling on this issue that like, I, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to root

⏹️ ▶️ John for, for like a PR blow up, but sometimes, uh, that’s just the only

⏹️ ▶️ John way things change. And I really hope this time it doesn’t just like blow up and then fizzle again. And on that,

⏹️ ▶️ John on the, on Apple’s side of this, the thing that I’ve going for them is that if they have a WWDC and introduce our

⏹️ ▶️ John max and they’re all super amazing, that will change the conversation. And for a while people will forget about,

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’ll kind of be a shame. And honestly, I don’t want Apple’s WWDC to be overshadowed with stupid app store stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want Apple to do quote unquote, the right thing, meaning the thing that I think that they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John been resisting doing in favor of the strategy that’s producing worse outcomes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, this, this kind of stuff just makes me mad. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has, you know, it’s a big company, there’s a lot of sides to it, there’s a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of personalities in it. And we see multiple sides of it at different times. One of the dark

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sides of Apple is that they can be incredibly power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hungry and shockingly stingy. You know, we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say that certain things are a good value, certain things, like every WDC, when they open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up some API that we thought they’d never open up, we’re like, wow, that’s great. We really surprised, you know, they really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco surprised us there by opening up, you know, this API that seemed that it would be locked down forever or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But then there’s this dark side where they do some things and they stand by certain things that are just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco embarrassingly stingy for a company that produces premium products

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and prides itself in quality and Almost unconscionably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stingy for a company that has so much money as they have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like It’s a bad look to be super rich and super cheap about stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the biggest areas of this is the stupid in-app purchase rule. So this is the same rule,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you mentioned, that prevents Amazon from offering in-app purchase. Although now there’s an asterisk on that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now Amazon kind of sometimes can offer in-app purchase because Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needs Amazon more than Amazon needs Apple in certain ways. And so they negotiated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and made a special deal. Netflix famously, like, you know, they had in-app purchase for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while. They removed it. that caused friction, that hasn’t been resolved yet, but Netflix

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is allowed to do something that now can’t do, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the compromise that Amazon had and in many places still has, which is, okay, we don’t wanna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use your in-app purchase system because 30% is a lot. I often

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think, or all the money I’ve ever made from Apple, all the apps, everything, like, you know, Instapaper,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the magazine, Overcast, all the money I make from Apple, they keep like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost half as much again more than that. I have made Apple a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of money over all these

⏹️ ▶️ John years. And Netflix has made, like when Netflix canned their in-app thing, like they had numbers,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it was like hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe it was even billions. Like Netflix gave Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John the 30% cut for a really long time and arguably they benefited from

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and it was, I mean, it was really 15% behind the scenes for like, they had a special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John deal for a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco while.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s still like hundreds of millions of dollars, right? And so when, this gets back to my earlier

⏹️ ▶️ John point, when Netflix stopped that, those hundreds of millions of dollars just stopped cold, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And Apple was like, no, we like hundreds of millions of dollars, like, well, you know, and as

⏹️ ▶️ John you said, that hasn’t been resolved like the Amazon thing has done. And of course, you know, as we’ve mentioned many times in the

⏹️ ▶️ John past, not everyone is Amazon and Netflix, so good luck negotiating a special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deal for yourself. Right, and so the way it’s been, you know, to date,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco until fairly recently, is if you didn’t want to use or couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use Apple’s in-app purchase system, you could have an app where it gives you a login

⏹️ ▶️ Marco form, but it never mentions, like, where do you create this account?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the rules have actually gotten more strict over time. It used to be that you could link out to Safari. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clamped down pretty fast on that after a couple years, I think. Then it was like, okay, you can’t even do that, but you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can at least mention, like, go to our website to sign up. And in recent years, you can’t even do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In recent years, you can’t even mention a website that you could go to create an account. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco link to a support page that if you click a few links in the in-app browser

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after you get there, you can get to a purchase page. They have gotten remarkably strict

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about like, okay, if there’s any way to get from your app to a purchase page,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even if it’s like 17 levels deep after they’ve already jumped out of your app into a web view,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that still counts and they prohibit that. Well, apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the last few months, this has gotten even more restrictive to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now certain types of apps, and how they’re defining this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seems vague. The statement they gave to some news outlet basically said like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco consumer versus business is the distinction, but that’s stupid, as I think John Gruber wrote, like there is no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco difference between consumer, like that’s not an enforceable distinction, and it’s just clear BS from Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They

⏹️ ▶️ John gerrymandered it. Like they basically drew the outline so it exactly so it included like Netflix and Amazon. It

⏹️ ▶️ John was like there’s a bunch of other stuff like oh reader apps or apps for content. Like if you try to read the

⏹️ ▶️ John language it’s like are you trying to say Netflix and Amazon’s Kindle store? Like

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t, you know, consumer business doesn’t make any sense. And then the previous language also doesn’t make any sense about like well

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re a reader app. So email is not a reader app but Netflix is? Like what do you,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if you’re viewing content that had been licensed elsewhere, like it’s all this language that’s basically written

⏹️ ▶️ John to specifically include just the things they wanna include without naming them by name.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, like the rules changed apparently, you know, several months ago to say that even if you follow

⏹️ ▶️ John all of the rules that Marko had outlined, also if your app isn’t one of these apps that we want to be like this, you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do it. Right, so no matter what, and they’ve decided that Hey is one of these apps,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that basically, yeah, Jeremy, you’re doing such a good analogy here, because it’s ostensibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco supposed to be this codified system with fair rules, but in reality, it’s not at all fair, and it’s all political,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s all to achieve this basically sinister goal. This

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is pure, blatant, shameless greed. This is Apple being a huge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dick. And look, I’m a huge Apple fan. We all are. We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happily celebrate when they do great things, and for the next few weeks, we’re probably gonna be celebrating the great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things they’re about to announce to us. But this situation with this rule and the way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve treated this rule over time is Apple being a huge dick all the time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it seems like their incredible dickitude is increasing over time with in particular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about this rule. All I can speculate is they must make a ridiculous

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amount of money from particularly this rule because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you mentioned like this This rule, this one thing about totally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco prohibiting any other outside payment system in many types of apps from being at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all mentioned or even now at all existing in certain types of apps, even when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s totally reasonable to have a separation like that, like in this case, I think it’s totally reasonable,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this one rule and the way they operate this one rule is responsible for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco such a massive amount of not only negative sentiment, but of antitrust

⏹️ ▶️ Marco action and antitrust probes and any competitiveness actions by governments. They are totally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco warranted. I mean the response Apple posted, and what was it yesterday,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the European Commission probe thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey whatever that was?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The response they posted and the big puff piece they posted about all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco money that they eat, that they enable in the economy from the App Store, that was such a massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pile of bullshit from so many different angles. It’s a terrible look for Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It makes them look like dicks. Leading into what they hope to be a,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, rah rah, look at us, everyone’s great, we love you, developers conference in a week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They lead with that pile of crap?

⏹️ ▶️ John They read like a lawyer wrote it. Didn’t read like a lawyer wrote it and not a PR person? Because you know, you know, when there’s like a legal

⏹️ ▶️ John case in the courts, whatever it’s about and like whatever the outcome is, like there’s a verdict or something and there are of statements

⏹️ ▶️ John from the lawyers. Lawyers always say the most lopsided, one-sided,

⏹️ ▶️ John do not acknowledge the other side has any good points whatsoever, whether they’re on the winning side or the losing side. But especially if they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John on the losing side, it’s like, we disagree with this judgment. This is what they were saying. We disagree with this judgment, and we think Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is the best company in the world, and developers love it, and everybody’s great. And it is not like a PR

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that tries to be balanced and have the desired effect. It’s like a lawyer wrote it and said, there is no

⏹️ ▶️ John other side but our side. Apple is right and that is all there is to it. And that’s why if you read it as a regular

⏹️ ▶️ John developer, like, are you kidding me, Apple? Hardworking, what is it, like determined developers? It’s a level

⏹️ ▶️ John playing field. It’s like none of these words are true. Like, it’s like every word of this is wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it was very bad. But it read exactly like you would see a lawyer ever say after a legal case. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like that’s, not that it’s excusable, but it didn’t surprise me. And like, when there is a legal case

⏹️ ▶️ John and you come out on the losing side, your lawyer puts out a statement like that. And the fact that we read it as developers, like, you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John supposed to look at that. that’s for like politicians and lawyers so yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just it’s a terrible look like do they not know or do they not care

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how bad this like it’s it’s so just blatantly disrespectful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of our of our intellect honestly it’s the kind of thing you’d expect our president to put out if he was slightly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more articulate oh let’s not go too far

⏹️ ▶️ John he doesn’t understand these words

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah it’s true but like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s so like stingy and double talky and just distorting it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s it’s almost like trying to gaslight the public into thinking that we’re not being screwed as much as we are by Apple’s rule

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here and it’s just it’s just it’s awful and for a company that prides themselves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the principles they claim to pride themselves on to then also be acting like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is just this this crazy double talk that is not a good look at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John Their strategy for doing these changes it’s not a new strategy but like their strategy reveals,

⏹️ ▶️ John it makes it clear what they understand about it. So the strategy whenever they have a rule change like this,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, well, we’ve decided now that actually these certain kind of apps are allowed to let you sign up elsewhere and

⏹️ ▶️ John these other ones aren’t, right? Whatever the decision is. The strategy they use seems

⏹️ ▶️ John to make sense if you’re like, oh, they’re trying to be gentle to developers, right? What they do is they

⏹️ ▶️ John make a change in this policy and maybe they update the wording or whatever, but they don’t immediately ban every app, right? They wait

⏹️ ▶️ John for you to have to update your app, right? So that spreads out sort of the

⏹️ ▶️ John outrage, right? Because they make the new ruling and like if they just suddenly banned every app that like, oh, we’ve decided actually

⏹️ ▶️ John email apps can’t do this and they ban like every email app that does this and we’ll put a link in the show notes to

⏹️ ▶️ John DHH’s Twitter thread where he says, look at these five email apps, they all do exactly the same thing as us, how

⏹️ ▶️ John come they’re not banned, right? That’s not a thing that Apple does. They don’t say, okay, we’ve changed the ruling,

⏹️ ▶️ John all these email apps are banned, we’re pulling them from the store. What they do is wait for one of those email apps to do an update.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then they say, yeah, about that. Actually, there are new rules. You’re no longer in compliance

⏹️ ▶️ John with blah, blah, blah. And then you have to go back and forth and deal with trying to get a human. But they

⏹️ ▶️ John do that on a case-by-case basis with each individual thing, sort of demand-paged outrage.

⏹️ ▶️ John And as each one of those tries to update, that spreads out the story so there’s not a critical

⏹️ ▶️ John mass of things. And you’re like, isn’t that better? Isn’t that kinder than pulling all

⏹️ ▶️ John the email apps from the store? Wouldn’t that be an incredibly hostile thing? Like you’re not even getting any notice, you’re pulling all the

⏹️ ▶️ John apps, like it’s just terrible. It’s better to spread out like that. But by spreading it out like that, it reveals

⏹️ ▶️ John what Apple clearly knows, which is this is an incredibly unpopular, potentially damaging

⏹️ ▶️ John rule change. They don’t, Apple does not have the courage of its convictions to say, we think this rule

⏹️ ▶️ John is in the best interest of everybody, users, Apple, and developers. They know it’s not in the best interest

⏹️ ▶️ John of developers. And I think they also should know by now, it’s not in the best interest of users given how we

⏹️ ▶️ John know developers will react to it. And so they try to do it slowly and sneakily

⏹️ ▶️ John and just kind of like, oh, when you try to update, we’ll remind you. And they probably think they’re being

⏹️ ▶️ John kinder and gentler by doing that. And in some respects they are, but I think it reveals what they

⏹️ ▶️ John know to be true. That this is such an incredibly unpopular and potentially damaging change, they

⏹️ ▶️ John literally can’t afford PR wise to do it how they would do a good rule change. Say the rule change was,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, guess what? We’re not taking 30% anymore, we’re taking 25. You think they would demand page that out? No, they would announce

⏹️ ▶️ John it and it would apply to everyone instantly because it’s good news. When you got bad news, don’t really say anything

⏹️ ▶️ John and spread it out. And that’s just like, it comes off as sneaky and shady, even though I think they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John motivated internally by trying to be kind with that. And I see that angle, like there is an aspect to that,

⏹️ ▶️ John But if you find yourself having to do that, maybe rethink the rule change you’re making.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The App Store has always had this problem of the rules as written are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty vague in a lot of ways. They leave a lot to case-by-case interpretation,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they’ve always been enforced pretty inconsistently. I’ve heard stories about them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specifically wanting to make examples out of developers. That’s one of the reasons why people like James Thompson, who have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco public apps, like he makes Pcalc, and he’s been screwed over in weird ways so many times by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AppReview, I’ve heard that that was actually intentional to make an example

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of popular developers so that they spread the word so Apple doesn’t have to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I used to think that whenever they would have one of these slight changes or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco negative changes to the way a rule was being enforced, and they would pick on some developer,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I used to think that it was just random, or that maybe it was down to, app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reviews, it’s a bunch of humans. Maybe some of them interpret things differently at different times and they just have to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, get there, get their enforcement consistent and they were just going to get to it. I no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco longer think that I think it’s very clear that when they,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when they have these like behind the scenes enforcement changes that usually by the way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in this case also are not updated in the like published rules,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rules. Like there was not a published rule update a few months ago that made this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rule start being enforced differently, but it was. I no longer think that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just because they like want to be gentle about it or don’t want to tell us. I think it’s a tactic.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a tactic to really help like extort money out of people because if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco publish the rules the way they are in all honesty in direct clear terms like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then somebody like Basecamp releasing a new app would already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know before they developed the app over months or years they would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already know we can’t do this without supporting an app purchase and that might affect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether they choose to make it how they choose to price it etc.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the actual the rule change that forbids this type of thing actually did happen many months ago the problem

⏹️ ▶️ John is that the that Basecamp, logically, was not just reading the letter of the rules,

⏹️ ▶️ John but saying, how does the App Store actually work? And in practice, the way the App Store actually works is there are existing email apps

⏹️ ▶️ John that do this. There’s lots of apps that do this. Right, so regardless of whether or not the rules,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the rule changed back in whenever it was. If you read it closely, it’s like, are we a reader app? Are

⏹️ ▶️ John we a business app? Like, you know, whatever. Those words have been in there, but then you look at the actual store

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, well, it basically comes down to interpretation. It’s like, well, I think these rules would

⏹️ ▶️ John forbid our app, but there’s lots of it’s open to a lot of interpretation. So let me look at what’s actually happening on the store,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is what all developers do like to do their due diligence. We have

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to anyone we have to do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because Apple never fully

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John documents

⏹️ ▶️ John their rules. But but what I’m saying is I don’t think Apple needs to change the text to comply

⏹️ ▶️ John with this rule because the text that is in there fits with the gerrymander that they’re doing. It’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John but the thing is, because they slow roll it because because they don’t automatically enforce it at once. If you look around and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, what’s actually happening on the App Store. What you may see is, oh, it seems like this is allowed. I see a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ John other competitors doing the exact same thing. I bet we’re good. We’ll just watch and make sure they don’t change the rules and you watch and they

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t actually change the text. But little do you know that the text changed three months ago. And Apple is in the process

⏹️ ▶️ John of slowly rolling out their interpretation of those rules. You think you know the interpretation

⏹️ ▶️ John because you see this app on the App Store already. But really, that developer is going to find out the next time they try to release a point

⏹️ ▶️ John release that they’re mistaken about the interpretation of those rules. And like that, that slow rollout

⏹️ ▶️ John is, it’s so terrible because there’s just no way, like the tools we have are we can look at the text,

⏹️ ▶️ John but then we might have a different interpretation and we can look what’s happening in the app store. But then what’s happening in the app store

⏹️ ▶️ John is a, you know, a trailing indicator of what’s actually going on because of the way Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John rolls out these type of policy changes. And like I said, I can imagine them thinking they’re trying to be kind with the slow

⏹️ ▶️ John rollout, but it makes it just impossible to figure out what’s going on. it just, you know, it just kind of shady.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, at this point, I have thrown out all possibility of their doing this trying to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind. I think it used to be that they were trying to be like a little bit weasely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about avoiding bad PR because, you know, whenever you change the rules publicly, if it’s going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be in the direction of making things more restrictive like this, it will generate bad PR. So I think they try to just do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it quietly and hope no one notices, which is, you know, absurd, really, because everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will,

⏹️ ▶️ John we will notice. And I think it backfired on them now, because if they started

⏹️ ▶️ John slow rolling out this change in March, it just so happened to have come to the head right

⏹️ ▶️ John now. Like if they had done the change all at once, they would have taken the bad PR in March. But by doing the slow rollout where you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t really have control over how slow it rolls out, because you don’t know when people are gonna try to update their apps, right? And getting unlucky

⏹️ ▶️ John to essentially like that, hey,.com was launching right before WWDC and they’re a high profile app and they have enough

⏹️ ▶️ John money and nerve to say the F you to Apple, right? And by the way, DHH

⏹️ ▶️ John has already testified in front of Congress in the US about tech antitrust issues. So it’s the perfect

⏹️ ▶️ John storm of bad timing. And the DOJ is talking to him again. So this is a perfect storm of bad timing.

⏹️ ▶️ John But this is one potential consequence of a slow rollout of a rule change. And

⏹️ ▶️ John boy, obviously, Apple can’t plan for these things. And coronavirus, I’m sure, put

⏹️ ▶️ John a monkey wrench into all this. But it’s like, not this. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If this is

⏹️ ▶️ John going to be your strategy, this eventuality of like, you know, someone inside Apple might be mad and be like, how do we let this

⏹️ ▶️ John happen the week before WWDC? It’s like, you only have yourself to blame. Like there’s, you were in control of this whole

⏹️ ▶️ John process. You decided to do it this way. And this is the consequence.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No. And again, like, I don’t, I don’t think this is even being weasel anymore. Like, like I used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be being weasel-y. Let’s try to avoid bad press by just not publishing anything and just hope it goes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco away. Right. Like, like when a kid, like gets in trouble and they bury their, their head, their head in their hands

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they just like, Oh, if I can’t see it, I won’t get in trouble. I hate like the problem will just go away.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like I think it used, I think it started out that way. But now I think with this rule in particular, the way they’re enforcing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this and the way they have been enforcing this, I think it’s a tactic because you are able to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco build your entire business, build the entire app, spend God knows how much time and money building

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out a service and an app and everything, get it into the store, maybe even get version 1.0 out there. and then when you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to submit your bug-free update, bam, you gotta issue this right now, or you gotta

⏹️ ▶️ Marco add our payment system right now. It’s like, I think it is now a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tactic to be punitive and to be kind of extortion-y, to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really get people when they are most desperate. And look, they’re trying to launch a service right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here. Like,, they’re trying to launch a service, and instead of being able to launch it now, now they have a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco serious problem with the interface that is on probably the most popular device

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would be used to access that service. And they can’t, like Apple’s holding it hostage until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they pay up, until they agree to their extortion scheme. There is no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco charitable way to look at this.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve chosen the least charitable way, that they intentionally let 1.0 through to get their app launched

⏹️ ▶️ John and then took the 1.0. I’m not willing to go that far and think that that was intentional strategy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s not quite what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that their strategy of not publishing these rules.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not

⏹️ ▶️ John having conversations ahead of time. Like, if that’s a thing people could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do. Yeah, not having conversations ahead of time, not publishing the rules. Their entire, what Apple always has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco told developers when it came to questions about whether App Review would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco approve something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It’s like submit it and see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The answer has always been, just build the whole thing and submit it and we’ll let you know later, right? Which is not,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s not really anything, right? So I honestly think that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way they’ve been doing things where they let people build entire services, build entire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps, spend lots of, you know, spend years possibly, millions of dollars maybe, like building out services,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then only to have AppReview slam the hammer down after they’ve already done everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and because their entire economics model rested on the like vague interpretation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of this rule that now Apple decided to change their mind on, You have to believe that the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco result of that, much of the time, is developers saying, oh, fine, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco guess we’ll support your 30% now because we have to. It works. So the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strategy of being weasely about this and being vague and shifting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their enforcement over time is profitable for them. I have to imagine this all goes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back to one of the big root challenges Apple faces is revenue growth.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Their product lines have been slowing down dramatically, and the economic conditions of the world

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are definitely not gonna help them out this year. And so they’ve been driving for services revenue, and it’s been working. They’ve been making lots

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of service revenue, but services revenue is often consumer hostile

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or developer hostile or both. They have a significant financial motivation to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ratchet up the extraction of money from existing customers and existing developers. So these rules are never gonna go the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco direction. They’re never gonna like, people always think every time you see, they think like Apple’s, maybe this year Apple will lower the cut.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re never lowering the cut. We’re just lucky they don’t keep raising the cut. Instead,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do search ads.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did lower the cut. They lowered it for the subscription thing after the first year. It lowers. They lower it if your name

⏹️ ▶️ John is Amazon or Netflix like it has happened.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Asterisks, a lot of asterisks everywhere. And not not in like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a, you know, mass way here. This is one of the like when you have a significant push

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for ever increasing aggressive growth on services revenue, the result is going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be increased friction and tension between you and your customers and your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers. Because one of the most common and easy ways to get additional services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco revenue is to just tighten the bolts and extract more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the same thing, or make things more strict, or get more stingy with important

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff that make people wanna pay more money to get around it, that you have to pay to get around it, or in this case that you have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lose more of your revenue to Apple. That’s just gonna keep happening. There are some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco services revenue streams that it’s beneficial. You look at, okay, well if they offer some kind of service

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that people actually want and they offer it at a reasonable price, we talk about Apple Arcade, that seems pretty okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So Apple Arcade, five bucks a month, sure, we’ll pay that. You don’t feel ripped off by paying for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Arcade. You pay it if you want to, no one’s forcing you, and it’s fine. So there are ways to get good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco services revenue. But then there’s also ways that you just kind of put a tax on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a system that’s already in place, or you use your power over people, or your lock-in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or your monopoly power to extract rent from everybody in ways that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re not really providing the value that you’re extracting, you’re just extracting it because of the position you’re in.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Apple is doing a lot of that latter one as well. And I see that only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco increasing over time. And that’s why like, I, you know, when I see crap like this happening in the app store to developers,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I, first of all, I know there is no way that a guy complaining

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Twitter, even a very popular guy, or a bunch of podcasts talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about how Apple’s being a dick here is actually gonna change anything. They’re clearly making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way too much money from this, and they’re not about to cut into their services revenue, especially not this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the only way this is gonna change is if governments force them to. And Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco walking a really fine line with this rule because this one rule, as I said earlier, has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clearly inspired so many government probes and will continue to do so for any functioning government. Ours

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should be doing it too, I don’t know if we are. At least the EU has some kind of functioning consumer protection stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they’re doing it at least. But this one rule about allowing alternative

⏹️ ▶️ Marco payment systems and not allowing alternative payment systems in the app, If that one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rule was relieved a little bit, the entire Spotify complaint would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco evaporate basically. Like so much of the antitrust issue with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple and the App Store would go away with just this one rule being relaxed. It wouldn’t even have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be fully relaxed. It could go back to like, you can link out to Safari for your own payment method and then go back to your app.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which would be a huge relaxation of the rule. That alone would probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco remove any teeth teeth to any of these complaints, any of these antitrust filings and everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would kill it. But they won’t even do that. So obviously, they’re making a ton of money from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, and it’s only going to get worse over time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and they’re also backed into a bit of a corner. Like I shouldn’t be making excuses

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Apple, because I echo what you’re saying, Marco, that this seems in extremely poor taste

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and just mean, just downright mean. But from Apple’s perspective,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if they’ve shown all of the services revenue, it’s not like they’re going to throw it away. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey imagine Wall Street and the damage that they would take from Wall Street if all of a sudden they were like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well, we just thought we’d be nice today and we’d reduce our cut and we’d allow people to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey around our IAPs. And you know, that’s cost us a billion dollars or whatever the number

⏹️ ▶️ Casey may be, because at Apple’s scale, it might be that much. So I just, to your point a second

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ago, like why would they ever relax these rules? I think as much as I, as much as I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to believe that Apple is a company that wants to do right by its customers and do right by its developers,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ultimately. I should have stopped with Apple as a company period

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and companies are made to make money. And Apple, like you said, Marco is making a shed load of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey money on all of this, and they can’t stop making a shed load of money because that’s what their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey investors are expecting and that’s who Tim works for. Tim works for the investors.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, I come back to something that I feel like I always heard from Gruber and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe it wasn’t him but that’s where I always heard it, which was that and I might even butcher

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, but Apple cares about Apple first, its users second, and developers third. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is one of those cases where we haven’t gotten past step one, that Apple cares about Apple and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little room in Apple’s heart for anyone but Apple. And that’s really unfortunate because as you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys had said way early on, these decisions that Apple have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey made, to my eyes, inarguably make these apps worse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They absolutely do. And this was covered earlier, but I can’t emphasize it enough. They make the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps worse, but they make money. And that’s more important to Apple, which to some degree is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of why they’re They’re there, but it bums me out, and I guess when I get angry,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that I like to delude myself into thinking that Apple is a company made up of good people, which is true,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey trying to do right by everyone. That’s not really as true as I want it to be. They’re trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do right by Apple, and if they do right by other people too, then sweet. That’s a good bonus, but ultimately

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re trying to do right by Apple. I can’t necessarily fault them for it, but it just kind of bums me out that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this company that I want to celebrate for being just and right and progressive,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ultimately, at the end of the day, is still just a company and it’s still just a money-making machine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and that’s where the services revenue is so corrosive to that. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you consider just what they were for the most part before, just make good product

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and sell them to you, it’s much easier to align what is good for Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with what is good with their customers and what is good with their developers. If you’re just making great products and putting them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there and people want to buy them and then people want to run software on them, that’s great for everybody. And that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they did for a long time. And that’s what they still mostly try to do today. But then when you also then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to push into services, you introduce these potentially very corrosive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco incentives that actively fight against your customers and your developers, but benefit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple a lot. And it takes a certain degree of probably like self-control,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really, to avoid those corrosive influences and to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not go down that route as you pursue services revenue. And Apple has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco messed that up in a few ways. Like I think iCloud storage being so stingy is one of those ways, like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco free tier of that. This kind of stuff is just gonna keep happening because now if you look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the company financially, they need services revenue more than anything. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the only area of the company that is significantly growing right now. And if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco look at what the product lines have in store and the world economy being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of in a crapper right now, they’re gonna be relying on services revenue for growth for a long time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably. Because everything else they sell is pretty mature. Maybe someday they’ll release some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AR goggles that’ll take over the world in some way, but so far that’s not here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that might not happen. So services revenue is gonna be the main driver of growth financially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while, and they’re going to keep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ratcheting things down or up, some metaphor is very strange, but they’re gonna keep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ratcheting things to a more painful direction to get that extra money out of services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco revenue. And sometimes it’s gonna be things that we want that we’re happy to pay for, and sometimes it’s not.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a company that spent most of its existence not even having to make that kind of trade-off,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that for most of its existence, it could just make good products and keep making more good products

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and keep making their products better, and that generated their success. So they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never really had to develop the muscle for self-control against the corrosive influences

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of some of these services or revenue streams. So they’re really bad at it. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they will find that balance or if the money’s too good for them and it’s going to corrupt what makes them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so great. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Linode, and Fuli.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And thank you to our members for supporting us as well. You can go to slash join to see for yourself,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will talk to you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental. And you can find the

⏹️ ▶️ John show notes at ATP.FM And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and T. Marco Harmon,

⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, check the podcast so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey long

WWDC software wishlist

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I actually don’t necessarily have any need to do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an extensive WWDC predictions thing, but I would like to state on record, which is now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to convince me, it’s going to cause the universe for it to be wrong because I’m feeling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very smug about this prediction. But I just have this gut feeling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there’s going to be some pretty interesting developments on iPad. And I think specifically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey around the home screen. I can’t tell you why, as in I literally, I don’t, it’s just a gut feeling.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not that I’m trying to hide anything. I can’t tell you why, but I think that there’s going to be, I’m not sure there’s going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey multitasking changes that we all really want, but I think something about the iPad home screen is going to be significantly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey different this year. Even more

⏹️ ▶️ John icons. Yeah, right. List view for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco springboard. I really hope that it is a like refinement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year for the most part. I know. Oh, I hope so too. I know we probably won’t get that. And we just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco finished talking about like, you know, ARM Macs and that’s, you know, an architecture transition is not a small deal,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but in a way, like, it helps to do that transition if the OS is fairly stable otherwise.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hopefully, at least on the Mac side, I really am hoping for a stability-focused

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year. Every time I see any like major new Mac feature, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco concerns me now. Because I’m like, first of all, that means they didn’t fix the whole bunch of bugs they could have been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fixing at that same time. And then second of all, the Mac features are so often like really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buggy and half-assed for the first few years that they’re out, possibly forever that they’re out. Please stop touching

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac in most ways and just like refine what’s already there because it needs it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then yeah, for the other platforms, I’m again, I’m hoping for a re-refinement year as well because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS 13 kind of sucked for a while. The only platform I really hope to see major

⏹️ ▶️ Marco progress changes on is watch OS, because it needs it the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most still like watch OS is still so primitive and limited and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what apps are allowed to do. Swift UI helped a lot. But it did, but there’s still a lot more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go. And Swift UI itself, I hope gets, you know, a significant update for its second year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yeah, what do you I forgot about catalyst until this exact

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco moment.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we’ll get it we’ll get catalyst versions of the message speaking of not touching the I really hope they do replace the messages

⏹️ ▶️ John app with one that has feature parody, even though, even if it’s a quote unquote worse app, because the current non-catalyst

⏹️ ▶️ John message app is no great shakes on the Mac. If you want a real stability, this is something I think

⏹️ ▶️ John we haven’t talked about on the show and I haven’t heard talked about anywhere really, but like, if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, okay, I want this year to be like a stability year where we just do refinement and stuff, you know the best way to do that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t do an arm transition this year. Just delay it another year. Have this be

⏹️ ▶️ John a refinement year, like you just said, like, oh, no major new features. Maybe you get new Catalyst apps on the Mac, but

⏹️ ▶️ John in general, everything is like, it’s all stability release and also no ARM transition. And we would all be sad

⏹️ ▶️ John because we’ve been talking about ARM transition and all the rumors. I think we’d all be disappointed because we’re all getting psyched up for

⏹️ ▶️ John it. But that would sure be a more stable year than, oh, by the way, architecture

⏹️ ▶️ John transition. So I’m not rooting for that, but we have to put it out there as a possibility. Again,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially with coronavirus. And it could be for like uninteresting reasons having to do with manufacturing it really isn’t like Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John quote unquote fault, or they just got cold feet and pushed it out another year. Things like this

⏹️ ▶️ John happen, all right? So I just, if you’re listening to this show before

⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC, I want you to at least have some preparation in your mind, like maybe it won’t be Arm’s Year, and then you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be pleasantly surprised when it is, and you’ll get to enjoy it all the more. But that is definitely a way to

⏹️ ▶️ John make it a stability year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco An Arm transition happening this year would actually let most developers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco treat it like a stability year for the app side. And maybe even most developers in Apple, too, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most developers are not writing architecture-specific code anymore. Those days

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are long behind us for most apps. For most developers, an ARM transition actually would not require very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much work at all. It would be a lot of work for some developers, anybody obviously writing assembly code,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and anybody relying on all the frameworks that we were talking about earlier that are probably going to be deprecated like OpenGL,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most developers of most apps, there’s not going to be much to do. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that actually might kind of enable a stability year, you know, for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a lot of different fronts.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s also your dependencies, like if you’re if you’re, I mean, I know you don’t use a lot of dependencies in your code, but that’s not the case for other applications.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so you have to also wait for all your dependencies to be sort of both ported and validated on

⏹️ ▶️ John arm. And you know, it’s it’s quite a long chain for a long applications, not even entirely under your

⏹️ ▶️ John Control how easy it is to port your app. I don’t think it’ll be a big deal again We’ve gone through it twice like

⏹️ ▶️ John developers will get it done but the bigger the app the more potential there is for it to be

⏹️ ▶️ John Quite a lot of work just to get the thing working and you know and and and performing

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I guess the other aspects like oh just because it compiles and runs and doesn’t appear to be any bugs. How’s the performance?

⏹️ ▶️ John Presumably these new CPUs will have very different performance characteristics some some for the better It’s like oh, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John much faster than it was before. I didn’t have to do anything, but sometimes sometimes, depending on how Apple optimizes the

⏹️ ▶️ John libraries or how the libraries you’re using are optimized, or maybe if you’re a big company, you wrote a bunch of stuff yourself that was tailored

⏹️ ▶️ John for, not with assembly code, but tailored for what you know to be the strengths

⏹️ ▶️ John and weaknesses of x86’s vector instructions or whatever, could be very different on the

⏹️ ▶️ John ARM stuff. Or it could be that the ARM CPU’s like, to get the best performance, you really have to use this new API

⏹️ ▶️ John that uses the built-in neural engine or something because it doesn’t have the generic hardware to do what you

⏹️ ▶️ John want to do. Anyway, this stuff is always more complicated. Hopefully, for the pitch for

⏹️ ▶️ John small developers, like, look, you’ll be able to port your app in like a day. It’ll be up and running, and then it shouldn’t be a big deal.

⏹️ ▶️ John But companies like Microsoft and Adobe, changing anything in that giant

⏹️ ▶️ John house of cards is always going to be quite a headache. Luckily, they have a lot of money and people, so I’m sure it’ll work out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So John, if you had one Ricky pick for WWDC, what would you pick?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what you mean by that. I refuse to acknowledge gags from other shows.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fine. If you had a risky pick that you would like to pick for WWDC, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for nothing but bragging rights, what would

⏹️ ▶️ John you pick? I don’t know. I mean, I think I already made mine

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of predicting

⏹️ ▶️ John x86 emulation on ARM. Let’s see. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously, I haven’t really been keeping up with the rumors. Because I’ve been believing the ARM transition ones, and I’m like, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John more than enough. Beyond that, I’m with Marco. I’m mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John hoping that there’s not anything that I’m not thinking of. I would be so overjoyed

⏹️ ▶️ John if bugs got fixed with existing features. I mean, the only thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that I haven’t heard rumored at all that I would be excited about, that I think is worth doing, is improvements to Time

⏹️ ▶️ John Machine taking more advantage of APFS. But that’s it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think that will happen eventually no matter what, but it would be cool if they made further advancements this year,

⏹️ ▶️ John just because. But like everything else, I just want to fix all the bugs and make everything

⏹️ ▶️ John better and faster and more stable and have a cool ARM transition. And all the iOS and iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, that’ll be cool too, but it doesn’t really affect my life that much. So yeah, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John all I got. I got x86 emulation on ARM and time machine improvements for APFS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Those are pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Those are pretty good. I hope that if they do any kind of significant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac features, which again, I hope they don’t as well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if they put a lot of effort into changing the Mac beyond the ARM transition,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that might be a failure to read the room. What most Mac developers want is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stability. The Mac has been suffering in that area for a while. But one thing I would hope

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for with the Mac is if they do touch it at all, If they insist on touching

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I want to see some evidence that Catalyst can be used to make a good app.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have yet to really see much of that, including from Apple’s own apps. I know people are picking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the new developer app being pretty crappy on Catalyst. It seems so far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Catalyst still is nearly impossible to use well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even for Apple. And so I really hope that we get some kind of progress

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on that front. If this thing is ever going to be good, we should see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some progress towards the direction. You know, like, like I was, I was complaining earlier, like when the touch bar first came out, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was pretty mediocre and then nothing ever has changed about it. It has never gotten better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope catalyst doesn’t follow that same path. Like if you’re going to have this thing that came out really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crappy and really mediocre, like let’s see some movement in the direction of being good. It wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco take a lot, I don’t think, but it seems like they’re doing almost nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I hope, I really, really hope that Catalyst version two is better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And beyond that, I’m hoping at the framework level, SwiftUI should get a lot better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s wonderful as a 1.0, but it would be a lot more useful if a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limitations were lifted and a lot of bugs were fixed and performance issues were solved and everything like that. And then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the watchOS side, I want everything to be burned down and started over, as they,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John not only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as I wish for every year, but as they do every couple of years, I want you to actually do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, this summer I’ve been using the Apple Watch significantly, as I mentioned earlier. It’s always shocking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me, like, how weird of a platform it still is for apps, how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited it still is, how buggy it still is, even with Apple’s own built-in apps.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Does Apple use AirPods with Apple Watches to play music

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frequently. Do they know, like there’s tons of bugs with like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one ear having its volume set to zero all the time for some reason until you adjust the volume and it goes back up. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s like weird bugs that you would think they would run into. But anyway, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. The watchOS stuff, I’m always gonna have a massive watchOS because it’s always gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need a lot of work. So I’m hoping for some big improvements there. But everything else, please just do stability releases.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The watch doesn’t need it because it’s already so unstable. There’s no expectation.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is everyone in favor of Catalyst messages? Because I totally am. Even if it is just as bad as current Catalyst apps,

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want feature parity. It annoys me so much that there’s things I can only do on my iPad and iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John through messages.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Such

⏹️ ▶️ John as? You know, like do all the screen effects and be able to see them and add little,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s not, it doesn’t have feature parity. It’s just not as good as, it’s not as

⏹️ ▶️ John capable as the iOS version. And I know if we make a Catalyst, it’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ John worse in a bunch of ways than the Mac app, but Catalyst will mean, in theory, I’m assuming, that it

⏹️ ▶️ John would actually have feature parity. And so that way it could go in lockstep with the iOS version. So if they add some

⏹️ ▶️ John feature to Messages, it will come in both of them at the same time instead of having this lag or whatever. And

⏹️ ▶️ John honestly, Messages could be a better app overall, right? So I share Marco’s hope

⏹️ ▶️ John that Catalyst apps get better. I think they will, because it was the first year for Catalyst. It was bad. We all know it’s bad. The apps are

⏹️ ▶️ John bad, right? But year two, If Apple’s gonna continue to have this be a thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure it will improve. And I’m hoping that the apps that they bring, and what was

⏹️ ▶️ John the other app that desperately needs to be ported? I forget. So we got Messages, and what’s the other one that everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John keeps having rumors about that? Was it Maps?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Or is Maps already

⏹️ ▶️ John Catalyst? No, it’s not. Anyway, this type of situation, like the whole thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that Catalyst is made for, that there’s something on iOS that wouldn’t be on the Mac at all, except if there’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John way to get it there with you reusing the UI code. That’s why, that’s one of the reasons

⏹️ ▶️ John that Catalyst exists. Apple itself needs to start doing that. Where they did it before with like voice memos

⏹️ ▶️ John and a whole bunch of other stuff. It’s like, okay, yeah, right. You’re right that those wouldn’t be on the Mac if you couldn’t just reuse the

⏹️ ▶️ John code for iOS. But honestly, yeah, they’re more like a proof of concept. Messages

⏹️ ▶️ John is getting into serious apps that you care more about. Hopefully they never do it with Mail.

⏹️ ▶️ John Boy, that would be a nightmare. Mail has gone Catalyst. be like, no, I just destroyed that application.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, you know, speaking of messages, a slight tangent, something I really, really,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really want, and it doesn’t seem to me like it’s impossible, but,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, I really want to have support for,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey um, what do you call it? The, the tap backs, the, you know, thumbs up, thumbs down, ha ha exclamations, et cetera,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to have support for those in mixed format group messages when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re text messages. So, you know, Erin’s entire family is on Android phones and we have a couple of group

⏹️ ▶️ Casey texts with members of her family. And it is not unusual for the iPhone users,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is basically Erin and me and our future sister-in-law, to, you know, thumbs up a comment

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or thumbs down a comment or ha-ha a comment or whatever the case may be. And because it’s a group,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess it’s not strictly speaking an SMS, I guess it’s a group MMS message, what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey comes out is, liked, I’ll be there soon. You know, like the words, liked, I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be there soon, instead of the message that reads, I’ll be there soon, having a thumbs up on it. And it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey seems to

⏹️ ▶️ John me… It says Casey liked, I’ll be there soon. Casey laughed at, I’ll be there soon, right? Isn’t that what it says?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think it doesn’t attribute it as Casey said, I don’t think. And I’m not going to try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to look it up now. But one way or another, it’s clear that it took the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey verbatim message and put the word liked and then quotations around it. And so you feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, I feel like this is a solvable problem with computers today, that we could look back at prior

⏹️ ▶️ Casey messages and see if anything matches verbatim and see, maybe we should just throw a tap back on there if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re an iOS or MacOS person. I really wish that worked. That would be very,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very nice because it’s very, very annoying. But this is the thing, for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of the incredible things Apple does in general, and as much as we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey poop all over them, Apple software developers seem to be a pretty smart, pretty talented group.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I think to my eyes, one of Apple’s bigger problems

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from a software development point of view is how unbelievably myopic they are. The

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quintessential example of this was how great Apple Maps has always been in the Bay Bay Area, but has been utter garbage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for was utter garbage for the longest time everywhere else. And Hey, guess what? If everyone is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey working in the Bay Area that works on Apple maps, it’s going to be great there and it’s going to be garbage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everywhere else. And so one thing I hope that comes from this God awful pandemic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is if Apple were to, you know, somehow actually start to acknowledge that there are other parts

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the country that exist and Hey, people might want to live there, then maybe things like that’ll get better. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this relates to my messages complaint, because I would bet that most of these Apple engineers just don’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exchange text messages with Android people that often. I mean, why else would this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not be a fixed problem already? And it’s just, that sort of thing just really chaps my hindquarters.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When it’s something that’s a real bugbear to me with Apple software,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but because it’s like, just barely off the happy path, I suspect that nobody at Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has ever seen it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think tons of Apple people have

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey mixed

⏹️ ▶️ John conversations with people who don’t have iPhones. I mean, it’s the same reason you do. Like, they may work for Apple, but it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John automatically mean their entire family works for Apple. Like, I understand their constraint, like your idea of like, oh, if you see a verbatim message

⏹️ ▶️ John with the word liked in front of it, but that obviously doesn’t work. What if someone legitimately types a message like that, and like, where did

⏹️ ▶️ John my message go? Oh, it turned into a thumb because you happened to, you know, it’s this, there’s all sorts of problems. Like, you’re limited by

⏹️ ▶️ John the SMS network, right? It has very limited bandwidth. You don’t want to put inline stuff in there that comes out as garbage on non-iPhones.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I understand the problem, And obviously Apple’s solution is that everyone should have iPhones. But in the

⏹️ ▶️ John meantime, like in the meantime, you Casey, you can solve this problem by typing different things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Use your words, Casey. don’t just communicate with a little thumb.