Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

335: Withhold the Fun

Apple making exclusive podcasts, Dropbox’s blunder, best languages for computer science, and John’s attempts to drown Marco.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Relay live in SF in August
  2. iOS 13 charging
  3. APFS volumes vs. disk images
  4. Fun Fact on “wheel”
  5. “must” vs. “shall”
  6. iPhone SE update
  7. Back to Aftershokz
  8. Sponsor: Lumen5
  9. Apple original podcasts?
  10. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  11. Another Dropbox blunder
  12. Sponsor: Hullo
  13. #askatp: Car/iPad stickers
  14. #askatp: 256 GB phones
  15. #askatp: CS languages
  16. Ending theme
  17. 🌊🏊‍♂️🏖

Relay live in SF in August

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you want to do a Q&A episode for Friday?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do we have enough Ask ATP’s? Do you guys like kind of expand on some of those?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey We have a million.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, we have a billion of them. With respect, not all of them are very good.

⏹️ ▶️ John We can take real-time questions from the chat room and just the entire show will be like, no, no, that’s not good a question.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, nope, don’t like that one. Anyone like that one? It’ll be the worst live show ever.

⏹️ ▶️ John So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco we’ll just be yelling at the chat room, ask good

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey questions.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s start with, I wanted to call attention to something that is near and dear to our hearts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, this show, all three of us are also hosts on Relay FM and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Relay is doing a fifth anniversary extravaganza live

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show, I don’t know, just event in San Francisco in August.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So coming up, I believe it’s Thursday, August 22. So in a few weeks now, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tickets I have been on sale for a while. I don’t think there’s too many left. So if you wanted to see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some of your ATP co-hosts next month,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then you can certainly feel free to grab a ticket to the Relay Live event. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re $30. I’m going to stall for time and confirm it. Yes, they are $29. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you would like to check that out, if you happen to be in the San Francisco area or fancy a pilgrimage to the San Francisco area,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I said, two-thirds of your hosts will be there, probably your favorite two-thirds. Am I right? Yeah, I’m totally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Probably not. Everyone loves John.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, moving on. you

iOS 13 charging

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Somebody tell me about iOS 13 charging optimization.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s a tidbit that people keep sending us and I at least have known about

⏹️ ▶️ John it since WWC, but we never had occasion to mention it. And I think it’s worth mentioning because this is an eternal topic on our show.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ve done, I think, multiple Ask ATP questions about this thing, which is,

⏹️ ▶️ John am I doing damage to my phone’s battery by plugging it in when I go to sleep and leaving it

⏹️ ▶️ John charged 100% all night long? Should I, is it better if I just, you know, charge

⏹️ ▶️ John it up at the last minute before I wake up? Should I be letting it sit around the 100% charge? You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of things like, am I doing bad things to my battery? And what we’ve said in the past is,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, it’s not great, but the alternatives are all worse. You should just use your phone

⏹️ ▶️ John in the natural, reasonable way that Apple expects you to use it and just deal with the fact that you’re not babying

⏹️ ▶️ John your battery every second of the day because the phone exists to serve you, you don’t exist to serve the phone. So, in iOS 13,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has added some features that will help you follow that advice of just use the phone

⏹️ ▶️ John like Apple expects you to use. And in iOS 13, assuming all goes well, it’ll actually work better.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the way they do it is the phone tries to figure out, based on

⏹️ ▶️ John your schedule, more or less when you wake up, when your day begins.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so when you plug it in before you go to bed at night, it doesn’t immediately start charging it to 100%.

⏹️ ▶️ John it sits there and it doesn’t pull in any charge until like it calculates it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna take me, you know, 20 minutes to charge. It waits until, let’s say 30 or 40 minutes

⏹️ ▶️ John before you wake up, then it charges to 100%. So ideally, when you wake up at your normal

⏹️ ▶️ John wake up time, the phone has just charged to 100%. So it’s not spending all night, every

⏹️ ▶️ John night, plugged in at 100%. Now the downside of that is if it miscalculates or

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to wake up early or whatever, you could wake up to a phone that’s not fully charged hasn’t even started charging in the worst case scenario.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think this is an optional feature but most of us who have boring lives on

⏹️ ▶️ John regular schedules it sounds like a great way to transparently extend people’s battery life.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you don’t want it again you can just turn it off I think and just let it charge the old fashioned way but I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a reasonable thing to default to on especially if they’re very conservative and they say like well we’ll try

⏹️ ▶️ John to be at 100% charge two hours before you wake up or one hour before you wake up. are good, that’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be fine. It would be great if there was something when you plugged it in that threw something

⏹️ ▶️ John up in your face and said, just so you know, I know you just plugged me in, but I’m not actually gonna charge because I think

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re about to go to sleep and I’m going to start charging right before you wake up. If that’s not what you want

⏹️ ▶️ John me to do,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hit

⏹️ ▶️ John this button, I’ll start charging now. But that’s a hell of a dialogue box that no one’s ever gonna read, so I’m not sure how they would pull that

⏹️ ▶️ John off. But I thought this was a very clever feature to help people get more life out of their batteries.

APFS volumes vs. disk images

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All righty, we had a discussion last episode that Marco brought up about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using sparse disk images to enforce a quota for iPhoto. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a friend of the show, Dave Naney, and had some tips about maybe a different or better approach for that. Marco, do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you want to take us through this? Or perhaps John, since this is file system related?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can’t possibly let you get away with iPhoto there. It’s photos app with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey iCloud. Sorry. Thank you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And yeah, and so I recommended my trick was when you’re on like so when you’re not doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep all photos in all their original mode like when you’re doing the like optimize my space mode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you might do on a secondary computer like a laptop my trick for that is to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco put the photos library in a sparse bundle disk image you create with disk utility

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with a maximum size quota of and I said mine was like 30 gigs or 50 or something like that and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so it’s a great way to make photos app respect a certain disk size maximum.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Dave Nainian, who is of SuperDuper fame, knows quite a bit about storage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and file systems and things like that, and he suggested basically for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco safety and durability reasons that a sparse bundle disk image is not as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reliable and safe and everything as just using a second APFS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco space sharing volume, which is the same trick I use to install Catalina next to Mojave

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and have dual boot here. So I literally just told everyone about that a few weeks ago, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here we are. I didn’t even think about it for this use, but if you do the APFS space

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sharing volume, it gives you all the protections and integrity and everything of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the native APFS file system, like running directly itself, not in like a simulated container.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it’s safer and it’s more flexible and you don’t have to like manual, you don’t have to like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco auto-mount it using login items and everything. So that’s actually a way better way to do it. So thanks, Dave Manion, and check out SuperDuper.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m assuming the reason Marco hasn’t done it that way is he came up with this scheme before APL has

⏹️ ▶️ John existed and has just continued to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco use

⏹️ ▶️ John it, right? That is correct. So anyway, yeah, that’s a good idea to convert that. And to get into a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit of technical detail of why using a sparse bundle disk image is not a great idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John So when you’re doing that, a sparse bundle is this directory full of a bunch of little files. And it has this driver

⏹️ ▶️ John in front of it that makes it look like a disk to the operating system.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so when Photos is running, Photos thinks it’s writing to a disk. And it says,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to write out this JPEG or whatever. And it says, write this JPEG to disk. And the driver that

⏹️ ▶️ John sits in front of the disk image says, yep, sure, totally, I wrote that JPEG to disk. But that driver has

⏹️ ▶️ John its own set of caches and other sort of coalescing I-O

⏹️ ▶️ John mechanisms and everything. And it hasn’t actually written to disk. It was waiting to bundle it up with another big write

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s gonna write out one of those stripe files somewhere or whatever. So at that point, Photos thinks everything is safe,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not safe because the bits haven’t actually hit your disk yet. There’s like a second layer of buffering there.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s a situation where the application can think it’s doing the right thing to always make sure that

⏹️ ▶️ John everything on disk is always either a complete image or a non-existent image, when in reality,

⏹️ ▶️ John it could be a partial image written to one of the stripes in the disk bundle because of that driver. So that’s why APFS

⏹️ ▶️ John is safer, because then it really is just the same old volume as your boot volume or any other volume.

⏹️ ▶️ John And when Photos says, please write this JPEG disk and APFS says it’s done so, it has all the guarantees of APFS

⏹️ ▶️ John with no extra secondary layer underneath it. So yeah, the wonders

⏹️ ▶️ John of APFS. We all need to get used to the fact that it’s really easy and cheap to make

⏹️ ▶️ John volumes. And in case it wasn’t clear from Marco’s earlier discussions, when you make a new APS volume,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can choose to limit it, as they call it, like a quota or whatever. Like you don’t pick the size

⏹️ ▶️ John of your volume because you’re not carving up your disk space. They’re all sharing the same space in the container. And if

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t say anything, it’ll just share all the space, right? But you can limit it. So when you create the APFS volume, just

⏹️ ▶️ John limit it to 30 gigs or whatever you want. And you have a extremely native,

⏹️ ▶️ John as native as your boot disk way to manage your photo storage.

Fun Fact on “wheel”

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, Friends of the Show Fun Fact, which is a show with Arik Devins

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Alan Pike, they have covered, to the best of their ability, the genesis

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Weal, which is the, was it a group, is that right? That appears on the Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that has some special meaning, and they did a whole segment on that this past week, and so we will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey link that episode in the show notes if you’d like to hear the results of Arik’s extreme digging

⏹️ ▶️ Casey trying to figure out what the genesis of this was. It was pretty awesome. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was quite funny, as that show tends to be. So if you haven’t checked it out, it is very good and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quite enjoy it. Now, granted, I quite like both of the people who host it, so I’m predisposed to enjoy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, But nevertheless, it is quite good.

“must” vs. “shall”

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then BJ Rowland writes us with regard to the engineering standards that was the pre-show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the last episode with shall versus must and things of that nature. BJ writes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey engineering standards like civil, mechanical, electrical, et cetera, never use the word must

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so as to avoid confusion between legal obligations and requirements for compliance with the standard.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The word must implies a legal obligation, whereas shall is a requirement to comply with the standard. And then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey BJ linked to me, and I will put in the show notes, a PDF from the American Petroleum Institute,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which defines these, shall denotes a minimum requirement in order to conform the standard, should denotes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a recommendation or that which is advised but not required in order to conform to the standard, may

⏹️ ▶️ Casey denotes a course of action permissible within the limits of a standard, and can denotes a statement of possibility or capability.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Who knew that much thought went into such short words, but that’s the way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is. And we can always trust what the American Petroleum Institute tells us.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly right. Those big ice things up at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the poles, yeah, we don’t need those. What are they even called? Nobody knows. We don’t need them.

iPhone SE update

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, tell me about the iPhone SE and your headphones.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so quick updates on things I’ve talked about recently. Last episode, I believe, I discussed my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhone SE test phone that I had bought, and I’ve been switching my SIM into it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes, like to go out at night or something. I really like the size a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And one thing I’ve especially noticed is, like, just compared to my XS,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the SE is not only a lot smaller and not only fits a lot better in my hand and is easier to navigate like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by hand, it’s also a lot lighter. Like we don’t, I kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of didn’t realize like over time like how heavy the iPhone has gotten since then,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but like when you compare a XS to an SE it’s a huge weight difference and I’ve noticed this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially now in the summertime I’m wearing shorts a lot and I’m you know like you know it’s really hot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so I’m wearing these like you know thin light shorts and having the XS in my pocket is this not only is it this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this giant rectangle, which looks ridiculous and everything, and it’s hard to get in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and out of the pocket and everything. The XS weighs down my pocket. It’s almost like it’s trying to pull my shorts off.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You

⏹️ ▶️ John might need to get tighter shorts now that you’ve lost all this weight. I actually ran into that recently. I had

⏹️ ▶️ John some shorts that they were probably a little bit too big on me, and I think the waistband had sort of gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John stretched out. And yeah, it was the same thing. My big phone would be like, or the worst would be I’d have my wallet and my keys and my

⏹️ ▶️ John phone, and they would just be pulling down my shorts. So try a smaller size.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, this is the smaller size. It’s amazing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just how heavy the phone is when it’s in a very lightweight garment, like very light shorts. Really,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope with future phones, I mean, I know this is the same problem of all the competing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco desires. If you asked me in the winter what phone I should get next, I would say, oh, maybe I should try the bigger one to have all that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen space. But in the summertime, I just want the smallest phone possible. I need summer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone, winter phone here. But just one more point in the SE’s favor there and kind of one more vote for like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John hey,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know what, actually, smaller phones might not be so bad to keep making them and keep updating them. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway, this fall when I’m back in jeans and they release some awesome new giant screen phone, remind me of this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco conversation, please. And when I’m saying, oh, maybe I should go for the big one, remind me that I said this, that no.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you said the last time, the rumor is that the non-max version is actually gonna be a little bit smaller, so

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re gonna be getting what you want. A little bit smaller, but not, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I believe that’s for next year, but we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you

Back to Aftershokz

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then a second minor update here. I went through this whole segment a few weeks ago about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how I was doing my Powerbeats Pro and I really enjoyed them for summertime

⏹️ ▶️ Marco except there was this nagging issue that you can’t really take them off and put them anywhere

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because you can’t put them in your pocket because then their buttons get pushed and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And well, I’m back to my Trex Air. My Aftershocks Trex,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is it Air? Yeah, the Air, the smaller ones. Yeah, I’m back to those. And yes, they are a sponsor of the show. They did not ask

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me to say this. They aren’t sponsoring this week or that week for that matter. But yeah, I’m back to the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Trex Air because I realized that they basically solved all the problems I had with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Beats because I can, when I don’t need to be listening to them or when I wanna take it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off so I could talk to somebody, I can just drop them down and have them stick around my neck.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even if I have to put them in a pocket, they kinda stick out the top of the pocket. They can’t go all the way in because of their shape. but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no buttons get pushed, and they don’t accidentally disconnect or reconnect or anything because they have their own power control.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m back to the Trek’s Air, my wonderful aftershocks, and they are indeed the superior

⏹️ ▶️ Marco summer headphone. But I’ll go back to the Beats Pro when it comes time to like, you know, go to the gym

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John What about all those headphones, I think actually Beats makes some of them, that it’s two little bud thingies, but they’re connected by a wire?

⏹️ ▶️ John That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the previous Power Beats. I heard, I think from you, didn’t Tina go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through a lot of those? So one of our friends, like their spouse went through a lot of them because they kept breaking.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I forget who it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, Kyle’s the gray, I think had gone through that, if I’m not mistaken. He had plowed through like four or five sets

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that. I think that’s right. I might be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco making a mistake. Yeah, they have some massive flaw, like the previous Powerbeats. But, and then we also had people write in to tell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me, because I had said on that show, like I really loved the pairing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco style, like the AirPods pairing style that these new headphones had,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that I really wished Apple would make full-size over-ear headphones with that, like as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is rumored. And a number of people wrote in to point out that they do make full-size headphones with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the, uh, not the new H1 chip from the AirPod 2s, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do make Beats Studio headphones, which are indeed over-ear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco full-size headphones that have the AirPods 1 chip, the W1,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in them. So I that was good to hear I have not had a chance to try them because you know Beach

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life But ultimately I think at this point I would wait until the version 2 because the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the version 2 chip is so much better like you know all the faster pairing and The hey dingus stuff and everything so at this point I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will wait for version 2 before I try that but it’s good to know that they actually already do make basically the product I was asking for.

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Apple original podcasts?

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple may be bankrolling original podcasts, you know, Spotify style and trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of dip their toe in the podcasting water by funding podcasts. So this broke midday

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yesterday as we record and it was Mark Gurman and Lucas Shaw and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently Apple is, like I said, going to fund podcasts, according to them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What do we think about this, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, boy, this is messy. We’ve talked a lot about the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whole idea of podcast platforms having proprietary lockdown content that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only available on their platform, usually through some kind of paid plan. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think most of what we have said would still apply to this. The huge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco difference here is that Apple has, by most estimates,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about 60% of the market share of podcast players. The next biggest player after

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is Spotify at around 10%. So, and then everything below

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Spotify is like 3%, 2%. So it drops off very quickly after Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Apple is the big player that matters the most, Spotify matters a little, and everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else like me and everyone else doesn’t matter that much in the grand scheme of things. It really is a different animal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when talking about this kind of concept when it’s Apple doing it compared to anyone else doing it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that being said, having some kind of exclusive podcast to the Apple Podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app, it has the potential for some really negative effects on the podcast ecosystem,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but ultimately I don’t think it will play out that way. I don’t see a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of podcasts saying we’ll be exclusive to Apple because for all the the reason we’ve said it for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other things, like, if you go to Apple, if an existing high demand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco show goes to Apple, you could say, yeah, they have 60% of market share, but you could also say they only have 60%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco market share. So if you are an average show, which we aren’t, but our discussion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be very different if they came to us with a truckload of money. We would actually, we’d have a bigger problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on our hands here. But for most shows, this proposition would basically be, hey, do you want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to lose 40% of your audience and come work for us basically. 60%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is enough that this kind of thing is a scary potential for bad effects, but it’s also not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much that we can assume it would be successful for them. And their market share over the last few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years is going down, not up, as more clients take more share from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them and as the audience grows in places that aren’t Apple, like Spotify. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on one hand, I don’t see a lot of big shows jumping on this because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think they be willing to lock out or lose such a big chunk of their audience

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that isn’t on Apple Podcasts. And once you put up a paywall, you know, yeah, right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, 60% of the people use Apple Podcasts, but how many of them will pay, assuming this is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, let’s assume for the sake of argument that this is Podcasts Plus,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s another $10 a month Apple service, or, you know, whatever it is, they keep adding all these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plus services that are probably going to be around 10 bucks a month. Let’s assume it’s what it is. Pick your price, it doesn’t really matter. The fact

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, it’s probably a paid service that Apple wants people to subscribe to, right? So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they do this, you’re not gonna get 60% of your audience. You’re gonna get like 1%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of your audience, because the other 59% who are using Apple Podcasts won’t pay,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then the 40% who aren’t there can’t even have it as an option.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think it would be wise for most shows to sign up for this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, they could be developing original shows, that’s a different story that has different math and different effects.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s probably more of what they’re going to be doing because as I said, like it doesn’t make a lot of sense

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for any existing like successful show to take themselves and go behind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a paywall that that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Um, strategically money wise, everything, it just,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not a good idea. So that’s probably not going to happen very often. Um, so if you go to the idea of they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be developing original content and funding that, then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s fine. I think that would play out similarly to such efforts on Spotify and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Stitcher Premium and on places like Audible, like places that have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco originals, like exclusive originals that were developed for them, by them, behind some kind of paywall.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Those do okay for some of those platforms, but they don’t really affect the outside

⏹️ ▶️ Marco world of podcasting. They don’t have enough traction, seemingly, to really affect everyone else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, probably how this is gonna play out, like Apple News Plus has not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco killed anything, except maybe the usefulness of the Apple News app. But besides that, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple News Plus, which I think would be a very similar approach, hasn’t really done

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything. It hasn’t set the world on fire, it hasn’t taken off that well. It hasn’t really been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a great or a terrible thing for anybody, it’s just kind of too small of a splash to matter. that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco same scale of effect is probably what’s going to happen here. They’re probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna have some big names, they’re probably gonna come out the door with some kind of premium thing and they’ll get some usage,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I’m guessing it will go just like everyone else’s paid exclusive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco originals and not really move the needle for those of us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who aren’t in that world. And for this area of podcasting,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the kind of tech and Apple news, anybody listening to this show probably, you probably won’t even notice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this kind of stuff. Because first of all, most of you aren’t using Apple Podcasts,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unlike the general purpose podcast market. Most people who listen to shows like this don’t use Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Podcasts, it’s a much smaller market share. And so you won’t even see these shows, you won’t even hear about them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if Apple does something to make their own client more attractive to people, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably aren’t, it probably isn’t gonna work very well on our listeners that listen to this kind of show. So I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s gonna really affect us much, if at all, except it’ll give us a few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco show topics to talk about. But setting that aside, I don’t think it’s gonna really do much. It’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not gonna go very far and it probably isn’t gonna affect us even if it does go a little bit far. But setting all that aside,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this certainly does bring up an interesting discomfort that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as Apple transitions into a company that cares a lot more about services and is seeking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much stronger revenue and strong revenue growth from services. They’re looking around,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re poking around the company saying, hey, where can we rustle up some more services revenue? Hey,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast division over there, we haven’t talked to you in a while. Can we extract a monthly fee out of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you? Can we get that somehow? Can we get people to pay you a few dollars a month here and there? There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of incentives now that Apple has that are at odds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with a lot of its previous ideals or previous behavior. Things like, you know, doing things that are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best for the customer. That changes when you sell iCloud backup space

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the month, you know, stuff like that. Like there’s all these weird incentives they now have that are counter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to, we just wanna make the best products for everybody. So, as they push

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more into the services narrative and services as a major growth engine for money, this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of stuff is gonna keep happening. I worry what that means for podcasting because so far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have been such a good, like kind of neutral steward of their massive power in the world

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of podcasting. If it weren’t for Apple’s basically benevolent neglect of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco world of podcasting, it wouldn’t be what it is today. Podcasting would not exist the way it does today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It would not be this good. It would not be this big. It would not be this healthy. And it would certainly not be this open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if Apple was actively involved in maximizing everything about podcasting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for themselves. It would not be what it is today. and we really have them to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thank for where it is. Like we have their incredible benevolent neglect and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mostly hands-off leadership of their massive market share, and their open directory,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, their semi-open directory that we all kinda use. We have them to thank for where we are now because of all that stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we’ve just been assuming all this time, well, Apple really hasn’t made significant moves in podcasting,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they probably never will. So when people like me would talk about things like, you know, market

⏹️ ▶️ Marco share diversity and client diversity and how important it is to have more podcast apps out there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There was this giant sitting on the side with 60, 70, 80% market share,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I wasn’t worried about them because they were doing all the right things and they didn’t seem to really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco care. And they were doing all the right things for like a decade or more, and so it didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem like they were ever gonna be a threat to this open ecosystem and this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wonderful medium that we all love. So the fact that they’re now seemingly making a move

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is kind of dipping a toe in the water in that direction, that is concerning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco merely because of their scale. That’s kind of the pessimist take there, and I do worry about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, and I am gonna be watching this closely. This could turn bad real fast, depending on what they do and how they do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have the optimist take for you. What I was thinking of, like, what’s the best case scenario?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, the best case scenario is this kind of doesn’t go anywhere, and it fizzles out, and we keep doing things the way we’ve been doing

⏹️ ▶️ John them. No, not like not the best case scenario for how it turns out best case scenario for their motivations because it

⏹️ ▶️ John looked at through The lens of a company that has like that has the track record that Apple has with podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ John the the most charitable attribution and motivation could be Apple, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know has done what it’s done with podcasts Apple sees what we all see which is you know The luminaries and the spotify’s

⏹️ ▶️ John of the world coming for podcasting and you know they’re throwing money at it and getting exclusives

⏹️ ▶️ John and putting up paywalls and and vending their own clients. And from Apple’s perspective,

⏹️ ▶️ John presumably there is some, you know, that they didn’t accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John treat podcasting the way they treated it for like 10, 15 years. Like it wasn’t it wasn’t an accident. It wasn’t like nobody noticed

⏹️ ▶️ John it was, you know, part of a conscious strategy, which is having podcasts more

⏹️ ▶️ John or less the way Apple made them by keeping them open and diverse and having their player or be the most popular

⏹️ ▶️ John player, makes Apple’s devices more valuable because if you get one of these things, whether it be an iPod

⏹️ ▶️ John or an iPhone or whatever has been over the years, one of the things you can do with it besides

⏹️ ▶️ John text people and watch movies and YouTube and listen to music is also you can listen to podcasts.

⏹️ ▶️ John And these other companies employing their strategies and throwing money at it is a

⏹️ ▶️ John threat to basically a benefit of Apple’s products

⏹️ ▶️ John because Apple has lots situations where yeah they make the product but there’s some

⏹️ ▶️ John dominant non-Apple third party force that controls a major part of the ecosystem. Examples

⏹️ ▶️ John are YouTube, Facebook, Netflix. Companies that aren’t Apple that at various times Apple butts heads

⏹️ ▶️ John with but that are an essential part of the value proposition of Apple’s products because if you buy an Apple device

⏹️ ▶️ John and you can’t use Netflix on it, that’s bad for Apple. And same thing with Facebook, same thing with YouTube.

⏹️ ▶️ John And those companies have at various times exerted that power in ways that Apple has been uncomfortable with.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t think Apple would be super happy if Spotify became

⏹️ ▶️ John the YouTube of podcasts or if Luminary was greatly successful. So most charitable, you could

⏹️ ▶️ John say Apple sees this happening and says, we need to defend podcasting

⏹️ ▶️ John and the way we can defend it is by doing more or less what they’re doing. Throw money at it, get original things like basically

⏹️ ▶️ John the old Microsoft strategy of we have more money, time and resources than you do. So we’re just going to do the

⏹️ ▶️ John same thing you do more or less the same way, maybe not as well, but who really cares? And we’ll just wait for you to run out of money

⏹️ ▶️ John and wait for your VCs to run out of patients because we can do this all day just like Captain America. And then once that happens,

⏹️ ▶️ John they just go back to okay, and now podcasting continues to be a safe neutral thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John is a that is a benefit to our products. And we don’t have to worry about getting YouTube or Netflix. I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John saying this is the most likely scenario, but it is at least plausible. And the reason I I think it’s plausible

⏹️ ▶️ John is that honestly, I think, if the servers are no people came around and say, can we get money out of that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Someone would do the math and say, not really. Like, it’s just podcasting. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I know it seems big, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John an ant’s fart in the app store of like three days worth of revenue. Like it’s nothing, it’s nothing

⏹️ ▶️ John compared to are the big businesses like music, movies, games, and the whole rest of the app store.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if that’s true. That’s kind of like my sort of gut reaction is that podcasting is as

⏹️ ▶️ John big as it may be on an Apple scale It’s just like yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John so I I don’t I give it a a less than 50% chance

⏹️ ▶️ John that their motivation is purely charitable And they’re just offending podcasting but I’m not willing to Entirely

⏹️ ▶️ John rule it out just because of the people who are in charge and the fact that it makes sense that Apple doesn’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John that To happen to podcasting it’s bad for Apple if that happens and like you said Margot like Like honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ John their chances, I don’t think they have any illusions, unlike Luminary and perhaps Spotify,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think they have any particular illusions about this amazing upside of them dominating podcasting.

⏹️ ▶️ John Mostly because Apple has dominated podcasting and they have not reached for that massive upside probably because it doesn’t exist.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I’m really hoping that this is a mostly defensive

⏹️ ▶️ John move that won’t, you know, that will stave off the competitors

⏹️ ▶️ John that we think have worse motivations, but they will not turn into Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John going all podcast evil on us. The second aspect of this is about if they try

⏹️ ▶️ John to go podcast evil, how this strategy – you

⏹️ ▶️ John just had a million reasons, Margo, about why it’s probably not going to be successful. I have another reason why Apple might think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John going to be successful, but why it’s a little bit different. The thing I kept thinking

⏹️ ▶️ John of with all of their plus stuff or whatever is their one product that doesn’t have a plus after the name, their one service product doesn’t have a plus,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is Apple Arcade, where they pay people to make games

⏹️ ▶️ John for iOS and all their other devices. And it’s like, why would Apple, we talked about this when we talked about

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, okay, why would Apple do this? People already make games for all their devices. Why would they pay people to do it? And then

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s charge a subscription and distribute that subscription based on how much you play and blah, blah, blah, like the whole model. Like, why would they bother

⏹️ ▶️ John doing that? What’s the point? And I feel like the point of Apple Arcade is, there is an ecosystem for games

⏹️ ▶️ John on Apple devices, but that ecosystem is lacking in ways that Apple cares about. The first

⏹️ ▶️ John way it’s lacking is that a lot of those developers don’t support all

⏹️ ▶️ John the lesser devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t support Apple TV, you don’t support the Mac. Of course, nobody does, it’s ridiculous. But Apple would like you to do that. So

⏹️ ▶️ John one way they can make that happen is by giving you money to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey okay, now will

⏹️ ▶️ John you support Apple TV? Sure, I guess, yeah, sure, pay me. But the second thing is, the games that

⏹️ ▶️ John are dominating the App Store tend to have these exploitive mechanics and

⏹️ ▶️ John these free-to-play things that extract money from you in exchange for the

⏹️ ▶️ John mechanics that withhold the fun until you pay them more money and have these subscriptions

⏹️ ▶️ John and all this other stuff. And how can Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John stop that from happening? They’ve built the App Store such that that is the apex predator. They can change

⏹️ ▶️ John the ecosystem by saying, What if we pay you to make a game and we’ll give you a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of money, but you can’t put it in app purchases? It has to be, you just buy a game and you play it and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John fun and that’s it. So they can shape the market with their money to make a new thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that hasn’t previously existed, make that become successful. Podcasting on the other hand,

⏹️ ▶️ John is not suffering from a blight of free to play podcasts that exploit these mechanics or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like you could argue that wouldn’t it be great if your podcast didn’t have ads and lots of these companies have argued that. like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, our podcasts are great, they don’t have ads. It’s like, podcasts with ads are not the same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing as like casinos for kids that extract money from you and delay these mechanics and make you buy

⏹️ ▶️ John coins to get energy to be able to continue, you know, like, it’s not even close. I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John people who are listening to podcasts today are particularly upset about how they’re being

⏹️ ▶️ John exploited by free podcasts. I think it’s a trade-off

⏹️ ▶️ John that most people are more or less happy with and have been happy with when it was called public radio, despite

⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that during pledge drive month it would drive people crazy, but other than that, and we

⏹️ ▶️ John have that in podcast world too, it’s a relationship that makes some kind of sense in that you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John hear stories about a kid losing three grand and then having to complain to Apple to get their money back. You don’t hear all these

⏹️ ▶️ John problems of buying a game and feeling like you have, or downloading a game and feeling like you haven’t actually gotten anything and

⏹️ ▶️ John not realizing how much you have to keep paying. That’s not how podcasts work today. So the podcast ecosystem

⏹️ ▶️ John is not in as desperate need of a new thing that can only exist

⏹️ ▶️ John when Apple throws money at it. So by Apple throwing money at this, I think what they’re going to get, best

⏹️ ▶️ John case scenario, is a bunch of good podcasts. And probably that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what Spotify can get. Give people a bunch of money and they make a bunch of good podcasts. And so Spotify will have some good

⏹️ ▶️ John podcasts that are only on Spotify. Apple will have some good podcasts that are only on Apple’s player. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a subscription model and blah, blah, blah. I don’t think that fundamentally changes the nature of the ecosystem. Unlike

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Arcade, where if that came to exist and be a subscription, it would feel so much different than

⏹️ ▶️ John the wild west of the app store, where everything’s free to play. If you subscribe to Apple Arcade, you would be having

⏹️ ▶️ John a, you know, qualitatively different experience than if you didn’t subscribe. Whereas if you subscribe

⏹️ ▶️ John to one of these podcast service, it’s like, well, do you care about any of those podcasts or do you not? But either way, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John these shows don’t have ads, but you know, who cares? I barely noticed that the ads such a small percentage of the time. and it’s not a

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that bothers me or whatever. So I hope this is a defensive maneuver on Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John part. I also hope they don’t expect it to, you know, change the landscape

⏹️ ▶️ John or go gangbusters. Because honestly, the value that they’re adding to podcasting is small.

⏹️ ▶️ John The defensive value is perhaps large because you’re basically staying on equal footing and not allowing

⏹️ ▶️ John Spotify or Luminary to, on the off chance that they start to snowball, you’re not allowing them to have the leg up on you because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, look, we’re all like this. and this is the player you’re already using already. So the playing field is level again,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you probably don’t care about these podcasts anyway, so just ignore all of this. That is my uncharacteristically

⏹️ ▶️ John optimistic dream scenario, that we’ll get a couple of good podcasts that Apple pays for,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will stave off the competitors, but the landscape will stay more or less the same. Remind me of my

⏹️ ▶️ John brief, deluded optimism three years from

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco now. I did say it

⏹️ ▶️ John was less than 50% chance, but I’m not willing to dismiss it as ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So just before we get all of the commentary and questions,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if Apple came to the three of us and said, you know, here’s a billion a piece, would you take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it and take your just peerless podcast over to our podcast plus?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think we can all agree that for a billion a piece, we would say yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of course. I mean, everyone has a price. Everyone has a price. We all have prices. But the thing is, no one’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John pay our price because we are not like, it’s like Marco said, Like why would you take an existing

⏹️ ▶️ John show and convince them to reduce their audience? You would just pay famous people, actual famous people,

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a new thing that isn’t available anywhere. Like it’s just, it’s such a straightforward strategy. Like when they,

⏹️ ▶️ John when Apple did its TV service, they didn’t buy Friends or The Office, although arguably maybe they should have.

⏹️ ▶️ John They paid a bunch of money to people for people to make new shows. That’s, that’s your value proposition, unique

⏹️ ▶️ John things. And no one is happy about having something that’s unique by taking something that

⏹️ ▶️ John wasn’t unique and hoarding it just to yourself. That just makes everybody sad. So that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to happen. And anyway, Apple wouldn’t be going after tech podcasts. They’d be going after

⏹️ ▶️ John comedians or Oprah. Exactly, Oprah. Steven Spielberg

⏹️ ▶️ John and Oprah are on stage. We were not. So that’s the level that Apple’s playing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at. Don’t sell yourself short, John. Everyone would love it if we showed up on stage. Everyone, even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the people who have never

⏹️ ▶️ John heard of us. Everyone listening to this podcast foot and everyone else would say, where’s Oprah? No way, man.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Do

⏹️ ▶️ John I get a car?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, for a billion a piece, maybe we will buy a few listeners some cars.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll buy you a car podcast. Can I interest anyone in a car podcast?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, there it is. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s the way I’ll finally get my dream of bringing neutral back is they back truckloads

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John of money. Apple will pay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it. There you go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco For a billion dollars, I would do neutral again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John As would I. You hear that, Apple?

⏹️ ▶️ John It would be a shorter show if we would just list the things that we would not do for a billion dollars.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, right? It’s also true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah, yeah. I can’t even imagine what this show would have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do differently if Apple brought a whole pile of money to us and we legitimately did take it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Again, this would never happen. It would never happen. But just for the sake of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thinking about it, I don’t know if we could continue to do this show as it exists

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if Apple was paying for it. Because even if we complained about Apple, as we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do from time to time… Us? We complain? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like even if we were complaining in this hypothetical world where Apple owns us,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey question mark, then people would be, oh, you’re just saying that so you don’t sound biased and really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you just do whatever Apple tells you to do.

⏹️ ▶️ John But we wouldn’t care because we’d be billionaires, so…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a fair point. I just, I really do think, you know, when people have asked me and I think you guys as well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the past, like, why don’t you just go work for Apple? And I mean, aside from the fact that I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not necessarily keen on picking up my family and moving across the country, uh, especially to a state that’s about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to fall off the country. Uh, I, I just, uh, everything about my life would have to change. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey literally everything about my life except my family would have to change.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just, Including you wouldn’t you wouldn’t be able to do the show like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey there’s one thing

⏹️ ▶️ John of like Apple paying for your pocket But the rule that Apple has is if you’re an employee you don’t get to do

⏹️ ▶️ John shows like this. Yeah, you just don’t so That’s that’s even worse like going

⏹️ ▶️ John to work for Apple would be worse than if they just paid for the show Cuz they pay for the show. Yes, it’s a clear

⏹️ ▶️ John conflict of interest But if you just stated up the front people could decide whether they want to buy listen to a show that’s paid for

⏹️ ▶️ John by Apple Or not, right, but if you go to work for Apple, there’s no show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Yeah, exactly, right. So So please don’t go running to Apple, you two, because I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know I’m not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think Marco is a flight risk.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Squarespace. Start building your website today at and

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco who run it say they can’t put information up there fast enough because they have to like email some contractor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to put it up there. They can’t do it themselves. I said, you know what? Let me fix this for you. I went on Squarespace

⏹️ ▶️ Marco made the entire site, remade their site. It took only a few hours, and this is a complex site.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There were probably 150 different documents to upload for various PDF links.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There were probably 25, 30 pages in the site. There’s an events calendar, there’s an image gallery.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just replicated on Squarespace. It took maybe three or four hours one night. I showed it to them, and I just handed them the login

⏹️ ▶️ Marco info. It’s still in free trial mode. I didn’t give them a credit card or anything. Still free trial mode, and I said, here,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco take this if you want it. If you don’t, no problem. And the great thing is then, I’m out of the picture. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can update stuff themselves, and if they need any help, Squarespace offers direct support with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the plans. It’s amazing. So you can see for yourself how great this is. I gotta say,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was blown away by how great I was able to make this website in one evening. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were quoted a price to modernize the website with a private contractor of $40,000, and Squarespace

⏹️ ▶️ Marco costs a lot less than that. So see for yourself, get this done for somebody.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rescue somebody’s old website from the Stone Ages for them and hand it off to them and say, here, if you want it, here you go.

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Another Dropbox blunder

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, man. But you know who Marco does want to work for? Marco wants to work for Dropbox. Oh God.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can, can I just say what bull just happened to my computer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey today? Because I was reading Twitter and I saw your complaining about how Dropbox

⏹️ ▶️ Casey suddenly appeared in your doc. And I thought to myself, surely that can’t be a widespread

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing. Surely that wouldn’t happen to my computer. And sure enough, when I arrive at my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iMac, guess what’s in my dock? Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my God. And the window’s up too. That’s the best part. Like the window shows itself.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So angry. Oh man, Dropbox. I, you know, every so often I,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Dropbox does something that annoys me and I look around at solutions to dump it. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this time I’m really in like this time I’ve really had enough like because what they’ve shown me and forgive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me I tweeted about this earlier so if you’ve seen it already forgive the repetition what Dropbox has shown

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a number of times over the last couple of years from various things like the accessibility

⏹️ ▶️ Marco permission the fake permission dialogues they presented like system dialogues to capture your root password and stuff like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Dropbox has shown they can’t really be trusted to have good judgment

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the amount of power they have over my computer. Dropbox runs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a user process on my computer. I think it’s just a user process. I hope it isn’t root, but it probably is. Who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I bet some part of it is probably root, but it runs as a user process. It has access to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of the user files that I have, you know, all of because it runs as used and it’s not a sandbox. So it has access to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of your files and it runs automatically updating software. It automatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco self-updates whenever it feels like it. That’s an incredible amount of access. That’s an incredible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amount of power it has and access it has to my stuff. And so for a company that has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that kind of access and that kind of power to repeatedly show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco poor judgment of how it wields that power and what it should do to my computer and what kind of power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it should have and take and how much it wants to get in my way and pop up dialogues when I plug cameras

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in and stuff like that, it has shown me that I shouldn’t trust it anymore. It has shown me that it is not worthy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of trusting it with the power it has, the immense power it has on my computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So now, more than ever, I am looking to remove Dropbox

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from my life. And we’ll see how that goes.

⏹️ ▶️ John You were comparing it when you were tweeting about it to, or someone compared it about it, and that they’re comparing it to Twitter. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the motivation behind both Twitter’s changes that we all

⏹️ ▶️ John hated and Dropbox changes that we’re all hating is the same. It’s two businesses that

⏹️ ▶️ John started with a particular model that users like trying to figure out how

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re going to be a business that makes the money back for all their VCs or whatever. With Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John it was like, we don’t think we can charge people so we have to figure

⏹️ ▶️ John out how to make money as an advertising platform. We need to take control of the clients and drive engagement

⏹️ ▶️ John with an algorithmic timeline and all these things that we hate, blah, blah, In Dropbox, the old complaint is like, if you just make a folder that syncs, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not enough. You have to be enterprising, you have to take over search, you have to become the gateway for all files across an entire

⏹️ ▶️ John organization and do all, like, all these things that we, features that we don’t care about because the business

⏹️ ▶️ John thinks to be as successful as the business wants to be, you can’t just be a folder

⏹️ ▶️ John that syncs. That’s a great way to get off the ground, but eventually you need to become, essentially, Microsoft Office and Exchange

⏹️ ▶️ John all rolled into one, or, you know, like, you have to have the complete suite of things. Like, that seems to be sort of the

⏹️ ▶️ John end game of all these things that sell to businesses. Like you have to be able to have an email system,

⏹️ ▶️ John a calendaring system, a document sharing system, collaborative editing of word processing documents,

⏹️ ▶️ John spreadsheets, cloud drive service, a real time Slack style

⏹️ ▶️ John chat thing, a thing that you can use for teleconferencing and calls. You need all of those things.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Microsoft has all those things. And the things they didn’t have, they cloned, right? Slack

⏹️ ▶️ John has some of those things. Like I can’t remember when Slack added like video calling, like video calling to Slack, it’s like, of course,

⏹️ ▶️ John of course, they need that checklist that I just went down. Everybody needs all of those things. So if you’re Dropbox,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re like, well, all I’ve got is the cloud drive. I need to get a bunch of those things right away. How many things can we start adding?

⏹️ ▶️ John And so you take your folder that syncs and you start adding, you know, document search and

⏹️ ▶️ John collaboration. And like, how long before Dropbox has something where you can do video calls to each other?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, it’s only a matter of time, right? Either these companies get bought by one of those other big things, like Google has a complete

⏹️ ▶️ John suite of that. Apple sort of has most of that suite, albeit spread out in a strange

⏹️ ▶️ John way. But really it’s between Google and Microsoft selling to corporations. And then Slack and Dropbox are like these

⏹️ ▶️ John smaller fish that are around the side where, in general they have better products. Like Slack is better than

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft Teams, right? Dropbox is arguably better than OneDrive or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John or what the hell is Microsoft things called? Or Google Drive for that matter, or at least was, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But the people who are running these businesses says, is this a tenable long-term strategy? Can we

⏹️ ▶️ John just be like just the chat thing or just the drive thing? And the answer

⏹️ ▶️ John when it comes to business is probably not because the big companies are like, don’t pay money

⏹️ ▶️ John to Dropbox for them to do your cloud drive. We have a cloud drive and we’ll bundle it with Office and Exchange

⏹️ ▶️ John and all this other stuff and Office Online and blah, blah, blah. Like don’t pay other vendors to you. Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John their product may be better. They wouldn’t say that, but their product may be better. But look how much cheaper it is if you just buy this one bundle

⏹️ ▶️ John that has everything from us. And Dropbox can’t offer that. They can say, well, we can lower our price, but we can’t give you

⏹️ ▶️ John a bundle that does everything. We’re trying to win on quality. And if you try to win on quality in the enterprise, that is

⏹️ ▶️ John not a winning strategy because we established before the definition of enterprise software, the people who pay for the software

⏹️ ▶️ John and selected are not the people who use it. So your software being more desirable for users means

⏹️ ▶️ John almost nothing in the enterprise. All that matters is does it do the things that I needed to do? Does it

⏹️ ▶️ John check all the check boxes for compliance and blah, blah, blah? And how much does it cost? And so

⏹️ ▶️ John the slow destruction of Dropbox mirrors the slow destruction of Twitter. It’s two companies

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to be more than they started out as, trying to find a way to

⏹️ ▶️ John make a viable business that can be the unicorn that everyone thought they were. And the only way to do that is to start

⏹️ ▶️ John adding features that users don’t want, but that in theory help you to make more money.

⏹️ ▶️ John And whether that actually helps them, whether Dropbox thinks they’re going to become a replacement for the Google

⏹️ ▶️ John suite or the Microsoft suite? I don’t know, but it’s clearly the path they’re traveling. And so it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter is like, are they going to hit a breaking point where they make their clients so bad

⏹️ ▶️ John that everybody leaves? It seems like they hit the critical mass breaking point that at least they have sort of a

⏹️ ▶️ John break even, to use Fusion Parlan’s reaction, going on where Twitter is not going to collapse under the

⏹️ ▶️ John weight of their terrible clients. Because if it was going to do that, it would have already. It still might collapse under the weight of other things.

⏹️ ▶️ John For now, it seems somewhat self-sustaining and has gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John probably as gross as it’s going to get until they reach for the next big leap.

⏹️ ▶️ John Dropbox, on the other hand, it’s unclear whether them slowly making their product worse for users

⏹️ ▶️ John is something they can afford to do because there are a lot of competitors. Some of them are platform owners,

⏹️ ▶️ John like Microsoft has their built-in thing and Apple has its built-in thing. If the competitors can reach confidence, it

⏹️ ▶️ John could be that Dropbox starts to fade before it can get that critical

⏹️ ▶️ John mass of enterprise contracts or whatever they’re shooting for.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s bad, man. I don’t know. The more time goes on, and it’s only

⏹️ ▶️ Casey been in the last, I want to say year, not even two years, but in the last year particularly, they have just taken everything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I like about the Dropbox client and ruined it. And I think it’s clear that, as you were saying,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I mean, I am no longer Dropbox’s customer. And so that’s okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it’s a real bummer. And so I think my plan is to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really push for myself and my co-hosts, who are the people I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most frequently use Dropbox with, to all move to iCloud Drive once we’re all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Catalina. And that’s reasonably straightforward and easy to do because in Catalina, many people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have noted, including Marco via Twitter, that in Catalina, they are supposedly adding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shared folders, which is the one big thing that I think many of us are actually missing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from iCloud Drive. Again, we’re not missing a work chat or anything like that. We’re just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey missing the fact that we can’t share folders. And once we can share folders, then I think I’m gonna try to phase Dropbox

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of my life very, very aggressively.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the other options people have mentioned is that you can use Dropbox

⏹️ ▶️ John without having a Dropbox software installed. Obviously, there’s the web interface if that’s what you wanna do,

⏹️ ▶️ John but also file transfer applications like Transmit can interact with Dropbox. So you can

⏹️ ▶️ John just totally uninstall the Dropbox software, not have to deal with their software at all, and still be able to essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John take advantage of the network effect of like, oh, everybody’s on Dropbox, and we’ve always used Dropbox, so we can continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to use it. So that’s a possibility. Having used, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ John every cloud drive thing, I have to say that Dropbox still is the least problematic in terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of actually making the files go to the place where they’re supposed to

⏹️ ▶️ John go successfully with the fewest number of conflicts. That’s the kernel

⏹️ ▶️ John of reliability that is in the middle of this giant cloud of

⏹️ ▶️ John nagging software. And by the way, even when you are the customer, like I’m not a business and I use the personal version of Dropbox,

⏹️ ▶️ John it is constantly telling me, your Dropbox is almost full. You wanna upgrade to more storage?

⏹️ ▶️ John And like, there’s no way to stop it from saying that. Like, I know, I am close to my limit. I understand

⏹️ ▶️ John I could pay more money for more storage, but instead I just want to sort of maintain

⏹️ ▶️ John with this whatever 5% free space, and yet the cost of having 5 to 10% free space

⏹️ ▶️ John is just constant nags. Like, you know, once every other day, at least sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John multiple times in a day, it tells me you’re running out of space. And it’s like, great, thanks Dropbox. I just

⏹️ ▶️ John love dismissing these dialogue boxes. And I’m like, that’s not an enterprise feature. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the, it knows that I’m a person because the enterprise would just buy a huge amount of space and the enterprise version wouldn’t bug the

⏹️ ▶️ John individuals. It would bug like the administrator or whatever, tell them that they’re running out of space, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So even for it’s just plain old individual user using Dropbox, it’s getting super aggressive

⏹️ ▶️ John about, you know, trying to get me to spend more money. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I say, no, I will just delete some files. And so I don’t want to delete any files. Like I think this

⏹️ ▶️ John percentage of free space, I made that joke about it when Synology sent me an email and it said, you know, space

⏹️ ▶️ John on volume whatever is getting dangerously low and there was only 500 gigs free. Using percentages for free

⏹️ ▶️ John space, it’s not always the wisest thing. And I understand things start to go badly if you, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John fill it up. But like in terms of Dropbox, it’s a totally artificial limit. I’m not actually filling a disc

⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere. Even if I was 99%, I don’t wanna hear about it until I’m 100%. That’s when Dropbox can tell me my

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is full. Until then, I don’t wanna hear about it. Bye.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Hullo buckwheat pillows. I gotta say buckwheat pillows are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really cool They are totally different than the regular like soft pillows that we are used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to It’s kind of like a beanbag full of these buckwheat hulls Which I guess

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the the size of them is like it’s like almost like a marble size I’m a little bit smaller than that And so it allows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you to adjust its shape and thickness and because it’s beanbag like then it stays there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you can move and support it however you want it to be supported, you know, for your head and neck and wherever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else, and then it stays there. It supports you exactly the way you want to be supported. It doesn’t squish

⏹️ ▶️ Marco throughout the night, and it also doesn’t really get hot, which is great in the summertime, because buckwheat tends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to breathe better air. There’s airflow that can get in there between the hulls, so it really doesn’t get hot or sticky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or anything. I gotta say, this thing is really cool. It’s totally different. I had one for a little while,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then my wife stole it, so now I have to get another one. because she likes it a lot. It’s really incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco supportive. And you can also customize how it feels. You can add or remove fill.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can just open up the side and you can adjust the thickness by adding or removing it. You can also remove

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the fill so you can wash the case fully. And they sell refills of the fill from their website too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This actually isn’t that new of an idea. People have been doing this for centuries, the buckwheat pillows. It was

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#askatp: Car/iPad stickers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is a pretty cool company. slash ATP. That’s H-U-L-L-O

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pillow dot com slash ATP. Thank you so much to Hullo Pillow for supporting my neck

⏹️ ▶️ Marco during sleep and for sponsoring our show. Steve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey McLaughlin All right, would you like to do some Ask ATP? Josh Lewis Let’s do it. Steve McLaughlin We begin tonight with Josh Lewis who writes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on what have you placed more stickers, your car or your iPad? And I thought that this kind of leads to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a more, perhaps more interesting corollary question, which is, do you guys have any stickers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on your cars? So let me start with Marco and I will go last. Marco, do you have stickers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on your iPad? And do you have any in your car? And which one has more?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So one question is, are we counting things like registration stickers that have to go on the windshield? No, no, no, no, no. Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if we rule out like, you know, required stickers for regulatory reasons and like parking permits

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and things like that, then I have one sticker on my car.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I have a fish sticker on the back windshield,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right in the lower center part of it. It is blocked from my view by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the center rear seat headrest, so it does not reduce visibility at all, but it still advertises to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the world that I enjoy fish, and I kind of enjoy that. That’s the only sticker I have that’s not a parking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sticker or a registration sticker. And then on my iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ John Before you get to your iPad, you forgot the other most important feature of that fish sticker.

⏹️ ▶️ John It lets you pick out your Tesla among the 5,000 other red Teslas in the town where you live.

⏹️ ▶️ John So when you go into the parking lot, you’re not lost in this maze of Teslas. You’re like, oh, there’s mine. It’s the one with the fish sticker. Exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s all for practicality. On my iPad, technically I have zero stickers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the one sticker that I have is not on the iPad. It’s on the keyboard cover.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, come

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco On the keyboard cover is one sticker. It is the Apple logo sticker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, So it kind of looks like an Apple laptop when you are using it. Like just right in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco middle of the center on the back of the keyboard cover. But it’s a sticker from the October event last fall which was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my first invited press event and that meant a lot to me and they gave special stickers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that were at that event and it’s one of those stickers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is it upside down or right side up when it’s in the folded mode? Like which orientation did you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go with? It is the modern version. So it’s like it’s upside down or it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right side up when it’s up in use, when you see it from the back, just as a modern

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple laptop would be.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They gave us a package of something like five stickers. I have one of those on the front of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the keyboard cover, if you’re holding it in landscapes at the bottom left, and mine is like a bluish

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and purple. And like I said, they had given us a package of like five, and I figure I’ll just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use them over time on iPads or something like that. John, what about your cars and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPads

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and things? Can I go out on a limb here and say zero on both?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would agree with you, but let’s hear it for real.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I do have zero stickers on my cars. Also zero magnets. My wife tried to put a magnet

⏹️ ▶️ John on her car and I said, we’re not that kind of family.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You know the magnets, right? Like the ribbons and stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ John You see them, like the, there’s all sorts of ones. I think the one she was trying to put on was like a pet adoption

⏹️ ▶️ John one, like after we’d adopted our dog or whatever, but no, no magnets, no stickers, no nothing on the car. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to say, the first car I ever owned, which I got from my parents.

⏹️ ▶️ John I did put a sticker on it when I sort of took ownership of it. I put a very small white Apple logo sticker

⏹️ ▶️ John on the back, you know, driver’s side rear quarter

⏹️ ▶️ John window thingy, right? And part of it was just like, hey, I like Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John blah, blah, blah, but part of it was also to be able to identify my white Honda Civic among the sea of other white Honda Civics.

⏹️ ▶️ John If I couldn’t see both sides of it, because you could easily pick it out because it was the one without a passenger side mirror.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry, what color did you say it was?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was white. Really? I don’t know if we knew

⏹️ ▶️ John this before. Would you say that just happened to you? Uh, I mean, my mother actually likes

⏹️ ▶️ John white cars. When she bought an Acura Integra later, she

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey chose

⏹️ ▶️ John white again.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Type

⏹️ ▶️ John R? No, it wasn’t. It was… No, it was just a regular Integra.

⏹️ ▶️ John My brother got that car. It was better than the Civic, but he totally destroyed it. He left the sunroof

⏹️ ▶️ John open and let snow into the car. This is the level of destruction we’re talking about. Oh, God. That’s pretty bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that was later in life. And so, yeah, my iPad, no

⏹️ ▶️ John stickers. I’m not a sticker person. No stickers on my device. I’m going to ask Marco, is the sticker that you put on

⏹️ ▶️ John your keyboard cover, is it actually straight and centered? I’m going to guess no.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is straight. If you eyeball it, it is straight. It is not quite

⏹️ ▶️ Marco centered

⏹️ ▶️ John correctly. It can’t possibly be straight. This is the thing about the Apple logo. You think it’s easy to line

⏹️ ▶️ John up and make it straight, but it’s not a square. It’s like it’s all wavy and curvy. It’s very easy

⏹️ ▶️ John to get it slightly crooked. I’m going to guess that it is. I mean, it’s not as bad as Casey stickers, which are just horrendously placed,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it is really hard to actually get an Apple logo sticker unless you’re laying it on top of, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is what a lot of people do at work, laying it on top of the one that Apple puts there, which is straight and centered.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you just have like an empty field on the back of a case or something, trying to put the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John logo visually centered and also straight is basically impossible. So

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it’s off by an amount that you don’t notice, but don’t look at it too closely. Got it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So for me, on my iPad, this is the first thing. Well, no, I stickered my work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computer, actually, because it wasn’t mine. But this is the first device of my own that I’ve stickered into Marcos Point. I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stickered the iPad itself, but rather the case. I have 10 different stickers on the front of it and three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey different stickers on the back of it, including a white Apple logo, horrifically twisted,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not on purpose, and horrifically off-center, also not on purpose, to serve the same purpose

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as Marco had said. So it looks kind of like a laptop when it’s open. On my car, I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the, I don’t know if you wouldn’t want to call it like the outline but the shape of the Nürburgring

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the back window all the way down on the left. I had the same basic thing on the BMW,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I’d actually bought with Marco at a little gift shop at the Nürburgring. However, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey went with the, well, it was kind of falling off at that point anyway, but it went with the car. And so I just ordered a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new one off Amazon. And I consider it okay to have that on the car since I have, thanks to Marco, driven

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Nürburgring one time hilariously slowly. So that is my situation.

#askatp: 256 GB phones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Eric New writes, you all, you guys all seem to go for 256 gigs of storage on your phones.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you come close to filling it? I have tons of apps and podcasts and I’m not even using 50% of 128 gigs.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t try to keep my whole camera roll on my phone and I don’t have any local music or videos. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe that’s it? Question mark. Uh, for me, I believe I have something like, where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is this? This is in general 80.5 gigs of 256 gigs. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey always buy a little bit bigger phone than I think I need just in case,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey especially now that 4K video is a thing. And isn’t 4K at 60 frames a thing now? So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that gets real quick, or real big real quick. For me, I have 20 gigs of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey music that I have pulled onto my phone, 10 gigs of photos, and then a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other miscellaneous and boring stuff after that. So I’m using, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, what is this, like a third of my 256 gigs. Marco, you went first last time. John, what’s your situation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on your phone?

⏹️ ▶️ John I saw this question earlier today. I was like, what are they talking about 256? I don’t get 256 gig phones, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I wasn’t entirely sure. I’m like, do I? Do I get 256 gig phones? So I looked it up on my phone. Sure

⏹️ ▶️ John enough, I have a 256 gig phone. I’m pretty sure this is my first one that’s ever been 256, because

⏹️ ▶️ John I never really went for the big storage. I just couldn’t stomach the cost upgrade.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I’ve got one now, apparently, and I’m using 96.6 gigabytes, so 256. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I’d been managing space on this thinking that I had a 128, like I didn’t wanna be creeping up on

⏹️ ▶️ John it. I think the reason I have that in mind is because I constantly fill my iPad. My iPad is always full.

⏹️ ▶️ John But my iPad is super old, like it’s the original iPad Pro, which is now several Pros

⏹️ ▶️ John old. And I think the iPad is 128 gigs, and also I download

⏹️ ▶️ John video to watch offline frequently if I’m gonna be going somewhere and don’t wanna have to deal with trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to stream it over a bad internet connection, and that fills up the space real fast. Or like downloading movies from my

⏹️ ▶️ John Plex or whatever. So it’s very easy to fill my iPad and constantly deleting big games that I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ John used and managing my space. But on my phone, apparently I’ve got tons of headroom, so

⏹️ ▶️ John I should stop aggressively deleting stuff from Overcast and just let those things fill up. Overcast is my third largest app,

⏹️ ▶️ John by the way. But it’s only 12 gigs. 12 gigs of podcasts are on my phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco. I have a very similar situation to both of you. I do have the 256 gig phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m using about 76 gigs at the moment. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it feels weird, but then like, so at first I thought, well that was wasteful to get it. But then I looked, I’m like, wait, was there a 128 option?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it turns out, no there isn’t. Like, the options are 64 or 256 or, you know, even more.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, that explains why I got 256,

⏹️ ▶️ John because 64 I would be way over the limit of. So, yeah. Right, so like a couple of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco phones ago, whenever they offered 128, I did get 128,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but they don’t offer that anymore. So I think, you know, I knew that 64 would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit tight for what I wanted. Sure enough, that was true. So it does feel wasteful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have all this space for a phone that I know I’m only gonna probably own for a year, and that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know for most of that year I’m gonna be using less than half of it. But the next interval

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down would have been too small. So I see it as like, not that I spent $150

⏹️ ▶️ Marco extra to buy space I wasn’t going to use, but rather I spent $150 to not have to manually manage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any space ever during that year that I have this phone. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t feel great that, I wish they would have offered a middle option on 128 and I would have gotten that and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would have been less money possibly. But the fact is we didn’t have that option. So I took the next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I still think this is better than having 16 or even 32 gigs be the base. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then, you know, I’d much rather be a little grumpy about going too high in the middle

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than being grumpy about the lowest tier being effectively nothing. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think any of us are really complaining.

#askatp: CS languages

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, Sarah Ann writes, I’m a teacher considering putting together a proposal for teaching computer science as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of the international baccalaureate at my school. Program languages would be at my discretion. Which ones do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you think are the most valuable slash important for modern students? I have a really terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey answer for this, so I guess I’ll go last. Marco, what do you think about that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s always this dilemma between languages that are easy to teach

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and or languages that demonstrate important computer science concepts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco versus what languages are currently in use in the practical world. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what the students probably want to learn is whatever language they need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make cool stuff that they can see in their current context. Like in you know on whatever devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people are using, whatever platform people are using, the current language is always in demand by the students.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What the professors usually want to teach is something is you know the more timeless concepts,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the more fundamental things. So you might want to teach things like C

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are kind of like underlying all this stuff, or you might want to teach things that have certain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco theoretical benefits, like Lisp to teach functional programming or things like that. So there’s all these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like competing factors. But I think ultimately for getting people started,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you need them to be motivated and to stick with it. And so I would put to the side

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the value of things like Lisp, but I know theoretical benefit languages. Put that to the side, save that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like, you know, year two or three of their education. For year one, stick to things that will get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them engaged and will keep them motivated to keep going. And that is whatever is required

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make the kind of things they wanna make. So right now, that’s probably gonna be in this order,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Swift and then JavaScript.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I assume Perl is the answer.

⏹️ ▶️ John My reading of this question is a little bit different because it’s a proposal for teaching computer science,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is very different than a proposal for teaching people how to program or how to become programmers

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco or anything. And so computer

⏹️ ▶️ John science is basically, you know, basically a math course practically. And so then I would say, pick

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the languages that has the least things

⏹️ ▶️ John that are not important to the concept. So when you’re teaching computer science and complexity

⏹️ ▶️ John theory and algorithms and data structures, Those things you could teach just with a whiteboard,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But you want them to have a program that they can write it out. Like a lot of algorithm books will have like pseudocode

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. So basically what you want is the programming language that is the most like pseudocode. So they don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John to worry about, oh, this is a, you know, like ideally, you wouldn’t have to worry about a type system.

⏹️ ▶️ John Certainly you wouldn’t have to worry about pointers. You wouldn’t have to worry about, you know, native versus, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, primitives versus objects. All sorts of concerns that are parts of real programming language, but are not

⏹️ ▶️ John part of computer science, right? Having to understand that this is an int

⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s a primitive and this is an object and it’s different and they behave in this way. Have to understand the difference between pointers and references

⏹️ ▶️ John in C++. None of that has anything to do with computer science. So those make poor

⏹️ ▶️ John languages to teach computer science. Arguably, like I said, you could teach computer

⏹️ ▶️ John science without a language. And I’ve taken courses that are like that where you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John touch a computer but it is a computer science course. But if you do want to touch a computer, I would pick

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever you think the best modern language is that has

⏹️ ▶️ John the least warts that will surface when teaching algorithms and data structures.

⏹️ ▶️ John So Swift is actually good in that regard. I’ve seen this. My son has been taking computer courses, and

⏹️ ▶️ John he’s basically had to learn and use, at various times, Python, Swift,

⏹️ ▶️ John Java, and C++. And despite the fact that Swift is itself a very

⏹️ ▶️ John complicated and feature-rich language, if you’re using it to learn data structures and algorithms, you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have to touch any of the weird stuff. Like protocols are not going to come up in a class teaching complexity

⏹️ ▶️ John theory, right? It’s just, you don’t have to use it. You just need like assignment, conditional loops, functions.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re using Swift to do those things, you do have to deal with the type system, but type

⏹️ ▶️ John reference helps a little bit there. You don’t have to deal with pointers. You don’t have to deal with

⏹️ ▶️ John the strange warts of types that can’t contain a value and

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of weird things that you have to deal with in a low level language. So I think Swift actually

⏹️ ▶️ John is a reasonably good language to teach computer science. You’ll be using one tiny little corner

⏹️ ▶️ John of Swift. Python might be similar, but honestly I think Python might actually have

⏹️ ▶️ John more weird warts and strange things related to it than Swift. So yeah, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m basically going to end up agreeing with Marco, but for different reasons that Swift is your number one and the number two probably is JavaScript

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s so pervasive. It lets you ignore types. JavaScript has way more warts

⏹️ ▶️ John in the basics than than Swift, like the fact that all your integers are floats and

⏹️ ▶️ John that are 53 bits long or whatever. And that will come back to bite you and the weird semantics around truth and

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, this JavaScript is a mess, right? But it’s ubiquitous. And you can do all sorts of fun things with it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re just going to do a bunch of algorithms, you can do that in JavaScript as well. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think like the real answer is talk to other people who are teaching a similar course, what they’re using

⏹️ ▶️ John and how successful it is. But coming from people who have never taught a course in computer science, but have taken them,

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift and JavaScript seem like a good place to start. And maybe I would throw in Python as a wildcard.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, it’s funny, my first answer to this was JavaScript, because it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, the most pervasive, you can use it on almost any platform, it may or may not be elegant, but can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do it. But hearing you talk, John, particularly about, you know, and I’m thinking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey classes in JavaScript, which, at last I’ve played with this, which has been a while, to be fair, is not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really a thing, or it’s so weird and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John esoteric.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you don’t have to deal with classes at all to do algorithm and data structures. You don’t. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John true. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco true. Also, like comp-side, like intro to comp-side kind of stuff, you wouldn’t really even need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get OO stuff in there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a fair point. So, I guess, you know, and it’s It’s not Sarah’s fault because she was writing a single tweet,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so goodness knows what the parameters are for this. But the way I read it was,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let me teach you the basic—and I think this is because I’m reflecting on my schooling in the early aughts—what’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the basics of object-oriented programming because that was all the rage in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the early aughts. Not to say that it’s not a thing now, but it was slightly newish, kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of, sort of, and fancy at the time in the way that I think functional programming is now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey programming isn’t actually new, but it’s just becoming trendy now. Well, anyways, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’re trying to teach basics of OOP, then I would say either Python or possibly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Swift. And if you’re just trying to teach a person more like what I suspect your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey son is dealing with, which is, how can you write code? And this is kind of what I think Marco was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thinking of. I think JavaScript was my first answer with Swift probably being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey second or third and Python being the other one in the 2-3 category. But now,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, hearing you guys talk, I really wasn’t going to bring Swift to the top, and now I’m actually starting to think you’re right, that Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might be the best complete answer, as long as you don’t mind hitching yourself to Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wagon.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but the fact is, a lot of these students will have Apple devices, and it is very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco motivating to be able to make something that you might actually enjoy and be able

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to run and use on your own device. That is incredibly motivating.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you’re at the introductory level, keeping these students motivated and engaged

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and getting them to push forward is so much more important than whatever specific things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re teaching them. Because a lot of people dip into CS as an experiment,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or, I might like this, I don’t know. You have to keep them motivated to get a lot of them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to stay and to remain engaged in the course. if it’s something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they can make code that runs on their phone, they could make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their own iPhone app, which their phone is certainly likely to be an iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It isn’t guaranteed for everybody, but it’s certainly pretty high on the list. Then that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has so much more value than any individual concept

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you might teach in an introductory course.

⏹️ ▶️ John People dump on Swift a lot as a learning language learning language because it’s like learning language. It’s so complicated

⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s so many weird features and it’s true is a big language and getting bigger all the time. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I maintain that it actually is a reasonable learning language because the corner of the language that you’d need to use

⏹️ ▶️ John to learn the basics doesn’t have a lot of sharp edges. Like strings work

⏹️ ▶️ John in a normal way. Numbers work in a normal way. Functions

⏹️ ▶️ John look like normal. There is not too much weird syntax in terms of parameter parsing, especially

⏹️ ▶️ John if you don’t reveal the entire power of the parameter system. Like, if you just stay in

⏹️ ▶️ John that little corner, simple things really are simple. Even the type system, which is a complexity that you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John really need to deal with to teach computer science, can be mostly hidden from you if you just do basic

⏹️ ▶️ John things. Even when you get into objects and stuff, and you know, structs, and like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s, you know, in terms of all of the quote unquote popular languages, it has

⏹️ ▶️ John the fewest weird things if what you wanna do is simple and straightforward because you’re just learning. Like you’re not interested

⏹️ ▶️ John in learning Swift, you’re interested in learning computer science and you’re learning it through Swift. It’s a thing, it used to be an argument

⏹️ ▶️ John for Python, but Python is old enough now that it has, like I think Python

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t do a good job of cleaning up its mistakes during its evolution, like many

⏹️ ▶️ John of its sibling languages, including Perl and Ruby and all that stuff. They just kind of built stuff on and then they did the

⏹️ ▶️ John Python two to three transition. There’s lots of weird warts in Python that to explain you have to be like, okay, well let me tell you the history

⏹️ ▶️ John of Python and why this is like this. and we have a new way to do it, but the old way is still there and it works. And new way is a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John weird because we couldn’t interfere with the old way. You don’t have to make those explanations for the most part with Swift. It’s part of the benefit

⏹️ ▶️ John of all the breaking they’ve done of source compatibility over the years. It’s like, we make a mistake, they’re like erase,

⏹️ ▶️ John erase, erase, try again. Okay, erase, erase, erase, try again. And there’s still, you know, towards

⏹️ ▶️ John the edges of the language and the complexities, it’s, you know, fiendishly difficult to understand all the

⏹️ ▶️ John nuances. But for the basics, you know, It is, I think it is a pretty good

⏹️ ▶️ John learning language. To give an example, my son was using it. He wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John using it to write anything having to do with Apple platforms. In fact, he was initially writing Swift into a webpage

⏹️ ▶️ John and that webpage would compile it for you on the back end and show you the result. And it was like doing a basic

⏹️ ▶️ John program. You could take text input from the terminal essentially and you could print things.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that was the introductory course. All you would do is add numbers together, make data structures,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, take input from the keyboard, print values. There is nothing Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John about it. Like I said, it was in a webpage. Eventually I got them to use Xcode because doing your coding at a webpage is not ideal.

⏹️ ▶️ John Um, but there is, even though they’re not using Apple devices, there is still the benefit of saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, and by the way, this is the actual language people use, asterisk, asterisk, to write

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey applications for

⏹️ ▶️ John your phone and your iPad. And like, wow, like, like they feel like they’re not wasting their time. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John I know Swift and they don’t know Swift. Like they know a tiny corner of Swift that have really no idea how to use

⏹️ ▶️ John it at all. But, and they don’t realize that what you really need to know to write phone apps is not the language,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the API, which is so much harder to get your mind around than the language. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it has done its job as a teaching language. And apparently my son was telling me that the AP

⏹️ ▶️ John computer science test is all in Java still. So like you’re faced

⏹️ ▶️ John with, I’m not sure what the, again, the goal of this particular course is, but in the US

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, if you’re apparently, if you’re going to take the AP computer science test, you better know Java because that’s what they’re going to test you on, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is kind of a shame because Java does have all sorts of warts that are not

⏹️ ▶️ John relevant to the, uh, to computer science as a concept, but are very relevant to Java

⏹️ ▶️ John as a particular language. And who cares about that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, Java is actually what I learned. It was what my CS 101 and 102 were taught in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the year 2000. That was the only time I ever used it for anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was learning on C++ and a couple of courses use C, but only a couple.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t think I’ve ever really written a line of Java ever, which is not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey necessarily by design, although I’m not complaining. It just kind of happened that way because, again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I learned C++, a little bit of C, actually took one course in C Sharp, which was extremely convenient

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of years into my career. But no, I was all C++.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You are not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey missing much. Oh yeah, I know I’m not. I mean, C++ is a, it’s got so many problems.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hear it’s better these days, just like Linux on the desktop, but oh, it’s got so many

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John problems.

⏹️ ▶️ John I heard recently that it’s going to get worse. Someone was telling me that the C++ 20

⏹️ ▶️ John standard is like, this is the breaking point. this is where C++ is just going to go over the deep end and

⏹️ ▶️ John jump the shark. And I was like, C++ has jumped so many sharks. It jumps an entire

⏹️ ▶️ John ocean full of sharks. The ship so long ago sailed on C++

⏹️ ▶️ John being coming so complicated that no one person can hold it in their mind. That’s so long. And still, in

⏹️ ▶️ John the context of C++, C++ 20 has this reputation of being like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, now they’ve gone too far. So I can only imagine what is in that standard.

⏹️ ▶️ John C++ is a great example of a language that is a victim of its own success that they just keep adding things to. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just, you know, I really do hope for Swift to be able to someday

⏹️ ▶️ John replace C++, because like, let’s reset the wart clock. You know what I mean?

⏹️ ▶️ John Every language gets warts over time, right? But there’s no way to fix a

⏹️ ▶️ John language like C++ to get rid of all those things, because that’s just what it is. And I was telling

⏹️ ▶️ John my son, all those video games that you love to play. They’re all written, unfortunately, in C++ with some scripting

⏹️ ▶️ John thing in the middle there for the parts that aren’t performance critical. But yeah, it’s a giant lot of people. It’s a destiny. The game I

⏹️ ▶️ John play all the time is the most fiendishly complicated message people saw. You could ever imagine there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a great GDC session where the destiny developers were explaining how destiny works under

⏹️ ▶️ John the covers, and it is way more complicated than you think it is because it has to be. Because if you look at the hardware that is running

⏹️ ▶️ John on, like everything has to be multi threaded, you have to use all those cores, you have to use the GPU. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the inner world of a modern console or PC game written in C++

⏹️ ▶️ John is just like this incredible alien city that you can’t even imagine. Like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine that someone who working on the core of an operating system would look at a game like Destiny and be like, run away screaming, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it is so much more complicated than something like an operating system kernel, because it has to do so much more, and

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s written, you know, not from scratch, but nearly from scratch by a random

⏹️ ▶️ John collection of people with strange opinions for a particular purpose. And then

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s so different, so much different than building a platform. It’s like, we’re going to build a game. Maybe the game will last 10

⏹️ ▶️ John years. Maybe this code base will last 20, but then we’re all going to move on to the next thing. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John they ended up being really

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco weird.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, C++, we need a replacement. I’m not sure if Swift is it, but something needs

⏹️ ▶️ John to be it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, don’t worry. Swift has taken all of the worst things about C++ adopted it. It’s made it new and clean.

⏹️ ▶️ John It hasn’t though. You don’t understand. You don’t know what the worst things about C++ are if you think Swift has taken the worst

⏹️ ▶️ John of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Thanks to our sponsors this week,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Squarespace, Hello, and Lumen5. And we will see you next week!

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes at And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco T. Marco Armin,

⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they didn’t mean

⏹️ ▶️ John to. Accidental, tech podcasts so long.


⏹️ ▶️ John Wow how’s the how is the I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John the swim plan going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was in the ocean but not not further than like chest level

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the waves were too big and Tiff even suggested that was probably not a good time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go further than that and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John she

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the water with you not that time no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John because the waves are too big So, assuming

⏹️ ▶️ John she can swim and everything,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it would

⏹️ ▶️ John be a good idea to have somebody like actually there with you sort of directing

⏹️ ▶️ John where you should go and what you should do at various times.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yes, that was… So, that way we

⏹️ ▶️ John could have a more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco successful experience. Yes, that’s the plan and that’s why I didn’t go further that time because the waves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were too big even for her to want to go in. So, we decided we will wait for a better opportunity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where the waves are more calm and then we will go in together and she will show me what to do. And then I got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hit by… There you go. I got hit pretty strong by a wave that she described as, that one was an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco under, and I didn’t go under it. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was very sandy after that. It

⏹️ ▶️ John was

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco a small part of the experience. It was a lot of sand.

⏹️ ▶️ John You gotta know where to stand, when to dive underneath, when to just go down, when to jump up, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John where not to be in general, all sorts of good things to learn. And then once you

⏹️ ▶️ John get the basics, you can learn how to do body surfing, which is fun. What is that? That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John when you catch a wave, but you don’t have a surfboard, you just got your body. And it seems like a thing that shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John be possible. And you’ll try to do it many times. It’ll be like, I just feel like I’m flopping. Eventually,

⏹️ ▶️ John you will actually catch a wave, and you’ll be like, oh, that’s how it’s supposed to work. And that’s the fun

⏹️ ▶️ John experience, the first time you actually catch a wave body surfing. It’s probably easier to do on a boogie board or something. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John first, learn how to survive the wave. Second, learn how to play in them, because there’s lots of fun things

⏹️ ▶️ John you can do. So either get a boogie board or try to learn to body surf, but they’re both fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Step one, learn how to not die. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Seems like a

⏹️ ▶️ John good step. Do you have a boogie board? Do people, the kids still call them boogie boards?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t know what

⏹️ ▶️ John you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would call them otherwise. They do still call them that. Uh, I don’t have one. I mean, I could, I could get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one, but I think I, I don’t think I’m ready for that yet. I think step one is like, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve used boogie boards like when I was a kid in, in the lake as just like flotation devices. Yeah, no, it’s different when you’re actually catching

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John a wave.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, never like in the ocean with real waves or anything. So yeah, step one is like learn how to use the waves and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not die.

⏹️ ▶️ John Although it seems like it to be, I don’t know if it’s just because we’re all big and fat now, but it’s like the epidemic

⏹️ ▶️ John of boogie boards breaking all the time. I seem to remember as a kid that you’d have a boogie board and you use it summer after summer,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’d be fine. And now as an adult, every time we get boogie boards, like they last two trips to the beach

⏹️ ▶️ John and then they’re cracked in half. Obviously we’re buying cheap boogie boards, but I feel like even a cheap one should like

⏹️ ▶️ John hold up a little bit longer than that. I don’t want to buy a real quote unquote real boogie board because they’re expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want to buy you know a cheap toy thing so you can have seven of them for all of the cousins and we all go in and

⏹️ ▶️ John they use them and then eventually after 40 minutes someone comes out of the ocean with this floppy looking thing that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John cracked in the middle

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ John go well this one’s dead.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have learned like one thing and I think I discussed it briefly last time but like my conception

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what swimming is is not what people seem to be doing almost ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the water. What do you think it is? I think well what people see me doing in the water

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is more like waiting in and occasionally swimming for a brief second and then standing back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up again or for me like what I’m learning to do is basically like do laps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and exercise in a

⏹️ ▶️ John pool. Well you have to be able to like you’re talking about transport you have to be able to transport yourself so what you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John learning is if I’m in the water and I’m at point A and I want to get to point B how do I do that? So that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what you’re learning right? But when you’re playing in the ocean And sometimes you need to get from point

⏹️ ▶️ John A to point B. Sometimes A and B are very close to each other and just repositioning yourself in the waves. But mostly you’re learning how

⏹️ ▶️ John not to drown. So you’re learning to tread water and learning how to deal with the waves and learning how to hold your breath

⏹️ ▶️ John and not get tumbled around and get water shoved up your nose and not drown

⏹️ ▶️ John and not be pulled in by the undertow or whatever. And sometimes during that activity, you will need to actually

⏹️ ▶️ John transport your body from one place to the other and you will swim a short or medium or long distance. And if it’s a rip tide, they

⏹️ ▶️ John swim a long distance to get back to shore, right? So you need to be able to do that, but you’re right that people aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John doing laps in the surf. If you go beyond the waves, you’ve probably seen this at the beach,

⏹️ ▶️ John people do do laps back and forth, parallel to the beach, beyond the breakers, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John a relaxing thing that you can do when you get a little more experience is to go out past the surf and then watch the people playing on the surf

⏹️ ▶️ John from the other side, where you’re just kind of bobbing up and down. You could just float there, or you could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do laps. To be fair, while I don’t go to the beach as often as some people do, I go maybe once a week,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but like during actual swimming hours, I go almost every day with hops, you know, but that’s like that’s like pre

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pre or post lifeguard hours. So there aren’t a lot of people in the water, but when I do go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco during like full full blown daylight lifeguard covered in sunscreen hours,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single person swimming laps in the ocean. I mean it’s not laps. You’re just you know swimming,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John but I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like swimming like I’ve never seen people do that in the ocean. I see I see people do it occasionally in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bay, frequently in like the gym pool or like the hotel pools,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like… They might be out there super early in the morning, like when does Hockenberry do it? It’s a thing that he does, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, probably in the morning. It’s actually

⏹️ ▶️ John easier to do than in a pool because salt water is more buoyant than fresh water. Yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s a little bit more relaxing, of course. Anyway, it can be cold and windy and all sorts of other reasons. Obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ John a lap pool is a more controlled environment if you’re just there to exercise. But one of the things

⏹️ ▶️ John that some people like to do when they go to the beach, some people like to play in the surf the whole time, some people like to go to go past it and just float and some people

⏹️ ▶️ John like to go past it and maybe swim back and forth two times and then come back in.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve definitely seen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Ultimately, I’m really enjoying the exercise part

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of swimming. I mean, granted, I’ve known to swim now for about a month, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is not a huge forever opinion probably, but I really enjoy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the exercise part of it. Going back and forth doing laps in the gym pool, that’s nice and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I appreciate the aerobic and strength value of that. But like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what most people seem to want to do most of the time in the water doesn’t appeal to me at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, that’s they’re playing in the water, right? So you learning how to use a body, a boogie board, learning

⏹️ ▶️ John how to body surf, or even just playing in the waves and enjoying big waves coming and dealing with

⏹️ ▶️ John them like sort of like the waves are, you know, it’s like video game. The waves are sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John waves of enemies or adversaries. And sometimes they’re a little one. Sometimes there are big ones and you’re just basically playing

⏹️ ▶️ John in the surf, playing in a part where it’s not dangerous, but where you constantly have to be not doing battle

⏹️ ▶️ John with the waves, but sort of like dealing with them, riding them, right? It’s just you’re playing,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re playing in the surf, right? It’s just it’s basic play. And if that doesn’t appeal, you might want to the older people who goes out

⏹️ ▶️ John past them, which itself is a fun game. How do you get out past the surf without, you know, getting

⏹️ ▶️ John tumbled and having salt water up your nose, right? So that’s a little skill section. And then your reward

⏹️ ▶️ John is you get to be out past the surf and relax and floating on your back in saltwater, which is again more buoyant,

⏹️ ▶️ John can be relaxing. You just hang out there and talk with the other adults who are just hanging out there or the old person with their swim cap

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, whatever person in the ocean you want to become, Margo. That can you can decide what you

⏹️ ▶️ John want to do. And yeah, you can swim laps back and forth back there too. But yeah, playing in the surface

⏹️ ▶️ John worth figuring out how to do and having fun with it because it is kind of fun. And

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually Adam, you know, well, assuming he goes through some lessons and all that stuff, will want to do the

⏹️ ▶️ John same thing because kids love playing in the surf.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco He’s actually, so this summer we have a rental house that has a pool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and he has loved it and he has really taught himself a lot of swimming so far and he keeps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing it and he’s advancing pretty quickly. So that’s likely to happen quickly, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In fact, he and I might be learning the ocean at the same time over the next few weeks.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll see how that goes.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Kids

⏹️ ▶️ John can be intimidated by like the pool is a good place to start and learn stuff because depending on the kid, they can be intimidated

⏹️ ▶️ John by the waves. Like your experience of assuming you have gotten knocked

⏹️ ▶️ John down by a wave and had salt water go up your nose, that can happen to a kid once, and that could be like a three-year

⏹️ ▶️ John delay of like, all right, I will revisit this whole ocean thing several years from now when I have

⏹️ ▶️ John forgotten this experience. But some kids are like, that happens to them, and they just bounce right back. So it really, really depends.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. So anyway, I’m slowly, slowly getting there, making progress. Did you

⏹️ ▶️ John get salt water up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your nose? No, actually I didn’t. That’s an essential part of the experience. I got knocked down pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hard and I got sand everywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John But, uh… Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s part of it. But also the part of saltwater being forcibly jammed up your nose by

⏹️ ▶️ John the waves. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the thing. You’re really selling it. This is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John really…

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s part of the experience. Tasting that and spitting it out for the next 10 minutes.

⏹️ ▶️ John You have to do it at least once or twice to know what not to do. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John dereferencing a null pointer. It’s part of the experience of programming.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Not an objective C, am I right? The thing that is most striking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me about Marco’s description of your ability or inability to swim is that we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey met at a lakeside community 20 plus years ago

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wherein you had spent pretty much all summer, every summer if I’m not mistaken, for most of your childhood

⏹️ ▶️ Casey within 100 yards of water. Of

⏹️ ▶️ John the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dirt beach in your mud lake. Yep, and I spent a lot of time in the dirt beach, in the mud lake,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco however, I was using flotation devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which is terribly dangerous. Like, if you don’t know how to swim and you’re just out on a flotation device, it’s just, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like stored up potential energy of death. It’s like, I’m fine, but if this flotation device

⏹️ ▶️ John squirts out from under me, I’m gonna sink like a stone and die, which is not good. Well, there were other people around,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, uh-huh, that would be able to fish your body out pretty quickly, you’re right. I would venture a guess to say that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going in the ocean with all of its giant waves and riptides and jellyfish and sharks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is way more dangerous than that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But like, once you can swim, like I would recommend,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you can’t swim, don’t go in the water where you can’t stand. If you can’t swim, don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John go on the surf for sure. But if you can’t swim, even in a lake, don’t go swimming in a lake, holding

⏹️ ▶️ John onto a floatie out, you know, past where you can stand, because what happens if you let go of the floatie? It’s bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John People drown in lakes all the time. The ocean, it’s like, oh, I can see, I shouldn’t go there. That looks dangerous.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you’re like, oh, I got a floaty, I’m fine. You’re not fine, learn how to swim.

⏹️ ▶️ John Marko was saved by the fact that he was just inside of his computer the whole time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly right, and I was there with him most times.

⏹️ ▶️ John Much safer, very, very low chance of drowning in front of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer. First of all, I didn’t even own a computer until sixth grade, and I wasn’t allowed to bring it to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the lake for the summer until high school, at least, like middle high school. So there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was a lot of time where I just had to like, just deal with it and I played in the water

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with my friends. But I had a boogie board or I had a life jacket or I had a floaty thing or whatever. Were you in over your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco head? Yeah, sometimes we’d go out on boats and we’d swim off the boats in the middle. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then I would have a life jacket.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even then, I don’t like the idea of people who can’t swim tooling around with life jackets because

⏹️ ▶️ John you gotta be able to swim. You gotta have that backup.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now I do. There you go. have very little experience. So I still have a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of things to do like, like, like to give you some idea of my, my, you know, skills so far, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the pool, I can go back and forth a lot. Uh, I’m good with freestyle for, you know, a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco while I’m good with, I can do a backstroke for a long time. I can do a breaststroke for a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco long time. Yesterday, I finally figured out how to do a breaststroke underwater

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have the right breathing rhythm to come up here and there. Like that took me until yesterday to get that right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like I could do it above water indefinitely, but to do like down and up and down and up that mean without just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Falling that took a while

⏹️ ▶️ John a good thing to do in the pool is to work on How long you could hold your breath so basically

⏹️ ▶️ John swim underwater back and forth in the pool as many times as you can without coming Up for air that’s a good safe thing to practice

⏹️ ▶️ John in a pool because if you get caught in the right kind of wave you may Be under there for a while and it’s good to be

⏹️ ▶️ John able to not panic when you are are not able to come to the surface for a long period of time and to know, to have the

⏹️ ▶️ John confidence like, it’s not a big deal, I can hold my breath here for 10, 15 seconds before I reorient

⏹️ ▶️ John and get my bearings and find the surface and go back up to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that sounds awful. You’re really not selling the whole ocean thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s fun to do in the pool. It’s fun to see how many times can you go back and forth in the pool underwater. It helps you do those little

⏹️ ▶️ John flip kick turns and everything. And it’s a fun competition. It’ll build your lung capacity.

⏹️ ▶️ John Fun. it’ll give you the confidence to say if i’m under the water no big deal i hold my breath for

⏹️ ▶️ John a really long time all the time i got all the time in the world i could be down here for a minute and a half

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah but i think i’m still gonna avoid things like waves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that sound it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sounds like i’m still gonna go on like the super green flag day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like i’m gonna wait until they put two green flags in the pole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John and that’s what i’m

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna go i mean all the videos from from the beach that have been posted that surf does not look particularly rough

⏹️ ▶️ John there like it’s not like smith’s point or something. I feel like it’s a… obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John the weather changes from day to day, but I think the shape of the beach and the, you know, ocean currents

⏹️ ▶️ John and whatever, it’s not particularly rough so you should have plenty of good days to

⏹️ ▶️ John play.