331: The Technical Burden of Users20 Jun 2019
Bluetooth permission dialogs, Afterburner, Pro Display XDR longevity, mouse pads, and Marco’s fun summer plans.
- iOS 13 Bluetooth permission dialogs
- Mac Pro
- Pro Display XDR
- Sign in With Apple
- An aside about Overcast and user data
- What do we think about mouse pads? (via Andy Beyer-Bowden)
- HardOCP (it was the Ratpadz GS)
- CS Hyde C4-NGen
- Buying an old-generation MacBook Air as new today? (via Jon Schwenn)
- How were the WWDC box lunches this year? (via many, including Tim Schmitz)
- What do we think about mouse pads? (via Andy Beyer-Bowden)
- Post-show: Marco's anticipated summer of fun
- ExpressVPN: Protect your online activity. Get 3 months free with a 1-year package.
- Squarespace: Make your next move. Use code ATP for 10% off your first order.
- Molekule: Reimagining the future of clean air, starting with the air purifier. Use code ATP for $75 off your first order.
- Mac Pro holes
- MDM-app policy
- Enterprise-app policy
- iOS 13 Bluetooth permission
- Sponsor: Molekule (code ATP)
- Mac Pro Afterburner
- Pro Display longevity
- Cold purchasing feet?
- Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
- Sign In with Apple
- Sponsor: ExpressVPN
- #askatp: Mouse pads
- #askatp: 2014 Air today
- WWDC lunch update
- Ending theme
- Post-show 🖼️
Mac Pro holes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let me help you. Let me help you here. With Lord of the Rings, it is like 44 hours of film
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with a bunch of people walking around trying to throw a ring in a volcano. That’s the whole thing. That’s all you need to know. That is it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was the biggest waste of my life, of my time in the world. It’s not even worth it, Marco. Don’t do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Thank you. All right. Let’s start with the Mac Pro hole
⏹️ ▶️ Casey design because we can’t get away from the trypophobia, whatever it’s called. I don’t even remember anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But a friend of the show, Stephen Stephen Hackett has collected a bunch of links and information that he conveniently
⏹️ ▶️ Casey put on one post, I think expressly for us. So John, tell us what’s going on here.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, a few tidbits. First, in one of the popular feedback items we got
⏹️ ▶️ John last week, people were pointing us to the design page on Apple’s website for the Mac Pro. They actually have a little
⏹️ ▶️ John movie animation thing showing how the holes are created. They show
⏹️ ▶️ John a side view, sort of a cut, you know, a side view cutaway of the thing. they show hemispherical
⏹️ ▶️ John divots appearing first on one side and then on the other offset. So that’s what we theorized and we should have just gone
⏹️ ▶️ John to Apple’s website because they confirmed that is indeed how those things are shaped. How they’re made,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, we don’t know, but that’s how they’re shaped. And then the speculation about
⏹️ ▶️ John where the design came from and about, you know, the poorly heard conversation between
⏹️ ▶️ John Johnny Ive and Tim Cook about it coming from the G4 cube. Stephen Hacker took out
⏹️ ▶️ John his G4 cube and looked at the bottom of it and you can see it’s the bottom of the top
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway one side of the the naked robotic core thing has a bunch of big holes and then behind that another
⏹️ ▶️ John piece of metal with a bunch of small holes and they are offset in the same sort of arrangement where through each big hole you can
⏹️ ▶️ John see a bit of three other holes right um but it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John a 3d thing so it’s unclear based on the overheard conversation whether johnny was
⏹️ ▶️ John referring to this like oh the Mac Pro it looks kind of like the the G4 Cube
⏹️ ▶️ John or as I originally thought that they actually did think about this machined
⏹️ ▶️ John pattern with the hemispheres but then just didn’t actually put it on the G4 Cube and just did something that’s much much cheaper
⏹️ ▶️ John and simpler to manufacture but also not as cool and not as prominent like these are much smaller scale
⏹️ ▶️ John holes and then finally somebody who sent this
⏹️ ▶️ John Evar Majus sent us an article by by Ian Parker in the New Yorker that is an
⏹️ ▶️ John old article from 2015 talking about Johnny Ive and in it they talk about a
⏹️ ▶️ John particular person in the design studio who used to come in early in the morning and make a bunch of geometrically
⏹️ ▶️ John complex objects. Then they would have the machinist mill, which doesn’t seem cost effective. Like I know people are coming
⏹️ ▶️ John in just wasting the time of your machinist on staff and spending material and electricity
⏹️ ▶️ John and wear and tear on the tools just to make cool designs. Anyway, and they said sometimes when they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John having a meeting about a speaker hole pattern or something, Johnny will say, we’ll ask the guy, can you get your box of
⏹️ ▶️ John patterns? Like, this is just this ready-made box of weird patterns that they can try out, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John fun. And you know, that’s kind of like brainstorming and just coming up with ideas and socking them away and then saying we
⏹️ ▶️ John have to, you know, we have a need for this. Instead of having to come up with something on the fly that you have just sort of
⏹️ ▶️ John a parts bin of interesting design ideas that you may or may not be able to apply. So that may have happened
⏹️ ▶️ John in this case as well. So I think we have thoroughly, thoroughly exhausted the
⏹️ ▶️ John origins and design merits and
⏹️ ▶️ John aspects of the whole pattern in the front of our Mac Pros. I think we can put this one to bed, please.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had seen some information about this flyby, but I didn’t get a chance to read it. What
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we had put in the show notes is Apple reverses course on MDM, which is mobile device management in parental control
⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps. Can someone pinch hit as the chief summarizer and chief and let me know what this is about?
⏹️ ▶️ John You basically summarized it. Remember
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey before when we talked about- Look
⏹️ ▶️ John at me go. Yeah, you did it accidentally. When we talked about before that there’s parental control applications that we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John using in mobile device management features that are normally used to control a fleet of
⏹️ ▶️ John company owned or company controlled devices and they’re using it for parental control
⏹️ ▶️ John and Apple told them they couldn’t do that anymore. Apparently Apple has reversed that decision
⏹️ ▶️ John and it now says that you’re allowed to do it for parental control applications as long as you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John sell, use, or disclose any data to third parties for any purpose. How
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is going to enforce that I have no idea but bottom line is that apparently are enough
⏹️ ▶️ John companies making and selling parental control applications using this technology and their cries were heard by Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John and they have relented and they are allowed to continue to have businesses using this technology. Honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple really needs to create purpose built APIs just for
⏹️ ▶️ John this. If they want this, apparently they do want this, this sort of market, this third party market for parental control stuff that
⏹️ ▶️ John have these powers. They want that to exist because if they didn’t want to exist, they could have just held fast and said, sorry,
⏹️ ▶️ John your business is over. It’s screen time or nothing now. Obviously, they want it to exist. They should do better
⏹️ ▶️ John than MDM, because MDM really is not the best tool for that job and not really intended
⏹️ ▶️ John for that purpose. And having these multiple sets of rules about if you’re a parental control app,
⏹️ ▶️ John you have this. But if you’re an enterprise actual mobile device management app, you have that set of rules
⏹️ ▶️ John is just weird. But anyway, I’m sure they’ll resolve it in a few more years.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Kind of tangentially related around the same time that this parental control brouhaha happened
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there was the like illicit app store thing where People or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey companies were using enterprise certificates in order to distribute apps to people that were not part
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of their company So to recap if you’re a big company say like Northrop Grumman you might have a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bunch of internal tools that you want to distribute only to your own employees and you can get a a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey enterprise certificate from Apple if you jump through the appropriate hoops and pay the appropriate money, which will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey allow you to distribute apps outside of the App Store, sort of kind of sideloading them
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just for your own employees. And what some not very nice people were doing was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey letting anyone be their quote unquote employee. And so apparently, Apple has tightened
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up their rules with regard to enterprise app certificates. And one of you was kind enough to put in the show notes the following quote,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you understand and agree that Apple reserves the right to review and approve or reject any internal use application that you would like to deploy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at any time during the term of this agreement. If requested by Apple, you agree to fully cooperate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Apple and promptly provide such an internal use application to Apple for such review.”
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I read that as, you have to do what we say when we say it, and if you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think you have something private, well, it’s not private when it comes to us because we are the gatekeepers.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, enforcement is weird. Like how would they know what to request from who for what reasons?
⏹️ ▶️ John Like it’s just kind of like they have to hear through the grapevine that somebody’s using a certificate to distribute
⏹️ ▶️ John an application that they shouldn’t or that Apple is, you know, an Apple can ask and say, show us what you’re distributing or show us this application.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if they don’t know, you know, anyway, and this seems mostly tangential to the thing was
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s even worse. And I was amazed that people found like just random people on the
⏹️ ▶️ John web who want to distribute an application outside the app store. They’re not a big company.
⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t have any employees. They just somehow got an enterprise certificate and they’re using it to distribute like some weird
⏹️ ▶️ John jailbreak application or a game emulator or some other weird tracking spyware
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff that wouldn’t go through the app store. And they just have a website and have instructions on how you can download
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff from the website and install their enterprise certificate on your phone and install this weird software that gets you pirated
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff or, you know, is porn or gambling or whatever. And that has just been sitting
⏹️ ▶️ John there existing on the web outside of Apple’s view apparently. And so
⏹️ ▶️ John this doesn’t change any of that because those people would just get shut down no matter what. This is more like
⏹️ ▶️ John for companies like Google or whatever that do legitimately have
⏹️ ▶️ John enterprise certificates. It’s just that Apple now says, at any time we want it, we can ask you, hey, what are you
⏹️ ▶️ John distributing? Show us this, show us that, and then we can give a thumbs up or thumbs down to it. which I’m sure the big companies love.
iOS 13 Bluetooth permission
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, you’ve been tweeting recently about Bluetooth and a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey new, I guess, like prompt that’s in iOS 13. I am not yet running iOS 13 on any of my devices.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will probably put it on my iPad when the next seed comes out. But can you tell
⏹️ ▶️ Casey me a little bit about what’s going on here? Because I find it very interesting and I thought we could talk about it a little bit before
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I go to sleep during the Mac Pro section.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sure. And I should begin this with a massive disclaimer that I’m still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco learning about this and I I currently don’t know that much about it. I don’t know that much about the Bluetooth API usage
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything, but basically the world of like, you know, ad tracking and analytics
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tracking is always looking for a way around Apple’s protections
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and rules. So, you know, they don’t want people, or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so lots of apps basically want people’s location data and other things that they can sell to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco money. You’d be shocked how many apps sell your location data behind the scenes for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco money, especially apps that actually get permission to use your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco location for some part of the app. Like this is very common among scammy weather apps and even some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ostensibly non-scammy ones, like some of the really big weather apps end up being caught like tracking your location
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the time and then selling it to people for money. Tracking location is like a very valuable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco privacy thing to be sold and so lots of apps try to do it and Apple tries
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to lock it down. If you deny the location access to the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual GPS chip of the phone, there are still ways to infer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your location much of the time. One of those ways is to scan for Wi-Fi networks around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you and figure out, and match it against databases of known Wi-Fi networks and where they are,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can oftentimes get tracked that way. Another way is via Bluetooth beacons
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and other Bluetooth devices that can be scanned with Core Bluetooth. What Apple has done in iOS 13 is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lock down Core Bluetooth in the same way that GPS access is locked down by requiring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco user permission. So it pops up a box saying, hey, so and so app wants to use Bluetooth, do you want to allow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this? And what’s interesting is that in iOS 13, so I’ve had the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco beta installed on all my main devices for about two days now. By the way,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t do this. Like, it’s really bad. And this is, Beta 2, Beta 2 is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really bad. Especially, especially around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco audio and volume and audio routing to multiple audio devices, it’s really bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So don’t do this. But anyway, the Bluetooth
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dialog boxes just keep popping up for me from apps that I haven’t even launched that are just doing background refreshes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or responding to silent push notifications or something. And so I tweeted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco earlier today, I think, or yesterday, I tweeted like, hey, here’s the apps that so far
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in like one day of running this, I already have like six or seven apps that most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of which I haven’t even launched that are trying to use Bluetooth. And I’ve gotten a ton of responses since then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from people either saying, wow, my list is even longer, or from people saying,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here’s all the ways and all the reasons why some of these are legitimate. And I think it’s interesting.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the things people pointed out is that the location-based apps, like Google Maps and Waze,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they apparently will use Bluetooth beacons to, like if you’re in certain tunnels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that have these beacons installed, to provide GPS in tunnels, or to provide GPS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco indoors, in various places indoors. I don’t know how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco useful and accurate that is. I mean, if you’re driving down a tunnel at like 60
⏹️ ▶️ Marco miles an hour, Can you even make a Bluetooth connection to something you’re passing by?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it connects. I think it’s just like a pinging type thing. It’s not making a, it’s not pairing with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so anyway, so walking around indoors is probably a more common thing, or maybe even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using mass transit, like subways, it might be a more common thing. Anyway, so there are some legitimate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasons why apps that use your location as part of the functionality, like a mapping app,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco might want Bluetooth access. I do find it creepy that it’s Google that’s doing this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Another problem is YouTube. And apparently, every app that includes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google Chromecast support. Whoops. Huh. So one of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that Bluetooth is often used for is for proximity device communication.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so, like one of my things that had it was the Nokia
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Healthmate app. Because I have a, why things, or I guess Nokia now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wi-Fi scale. and during setup, it uses Bluetooth for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco setup and pairing of the scale initially. Now, this just came up in a background
⏹️ ▶️ Marco refresh. I haven’t launched the app in months, and I think it’s, what we’re seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like, the app just instantiates the core Bluetooth device manager singleton,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it just instantiates that and just like has it ready to go all the time,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though like I’m not currently pairing a new scale, So I don’t need this. The scale,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like every day when I step on the scale, it communicates over wifi. And I get my results in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the app over wifi. So like Bluetooth isn’t necessary anymore, but you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the app just starts the Bluetooth manager API probably in like the application did finish
⏹️ ▶️ Marco launching, you know, startup method and just, you know, calls it a day. Similarly, the Tesla app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like there’s a couple of features that Tesla offers that I have never set up and don’t use. And some of them my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco car isn’t even capable of. but apparently it also just instantiates a Bluetooth connection
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the background all the time, like whenever a background refresh is. So what we’re seeing is there are legitimate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco uses for a lot of apps to have this, but there’s also a lot of apps that really don’t need this permission. By the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way, I’ve said no to all of them, and everything still works.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, and there were a few responses on Twitter from people who were upset that I was calling them out. I was like, these are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco legitimate, this is gonna cause problems. But I think what we’re seeing here is like, apps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco often just request access to things by default because it’s easy because it’s part of some like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco global setup method like your app to finish launching method and you you just instantiate the Bluetooth
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just in case you need it. Like for example, there’s an API on UI device which is like kind of like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your your API gateway as an app developer to the phone and its properties. And there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an API to check the battery level of the phone, which by the way, people have used
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be creepy. Like one of the ways people try to fingerprint devices or fingerprint
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unique people and devices between different apps without using the ID for advertising that Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco provides would be to match the exact battery level, which would be like, you know, 94.37% with the time of day,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with other things try to fingerprint you. And so years ago, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made the battery API only go in 5% increments. So you’ll never get 94.35% reported
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to you as the app. You’ll get 95% and then a little while later you’ll get 90%. And so Apple’s always in these battles with creepy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco analytics packages to try to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lock down things so that you can’t be uniquely identified without your knowledge. So Overcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enables battery monitoring. You have to actually tell the API, turn on battery monitoring, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then you can start getting values from it. And I do that right from the start. sync engine starts I’m enabling battery
⏹️ ▶️ Marco monitoring because I check the battery level to determine how frequently to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sync because syncing involves a network request and that could use power and so when your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery level is not great or when you are in low power mode I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco throttle back the sync engine so it doesn’t make as many requests. There’s lots of things like that that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like people might be starting up the Bluetooth API just automatically all the time for every background refresh
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for some feature like that that they think is minor or might occasionally be helpful to you, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they just do it out of just, it’s, why not do it, right? So what’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice about this is that now it gives people the knowledge of what they’re doing on this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing that could be used for creepy purposes, even if it isn’t always, but it could be used for creepy purposes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So Apple’s giving people the knowledge like, hey, you know what, by the way, this app here, they’re doing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re wanting to access your Bluetooth hardware, and you get a chance to say no. And for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most apps, you can say no and nothing bad happens. I should also clarify before, I just remembered now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco before I forget, before we get a lot of confused emails and tweets, the Bluetooth access that this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is prompting about and potentially denying has nothing to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Bluetooth audio output. Like Overcast does not use this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even though you can play to a Bluetooth headset, it’s only about scanning
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Bluetooth devices and communicating with Bluetooth devices in ways that are not about playing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco audio. That’s all this is. So you shouldn’t see this prompt from like podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps and stuff, unless they integrate the Google Chromecast SDK, which apparently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco starts this up for whatever reason. So anyway, most of the warnings
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you see are gonna be legitimate, and most of them don’t reflect the apps being creepy as hell,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but there are a whole lot of apps out there that are creepy as hell, and use this in some way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I would say, you know, similar to if an app asks for your location,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco say no, unless you have a really obvious, clear reason to say yes.
⏹️ ▶️ John I wonder if this Apple’s going to eventually come out with their version of like a
⏹️ ▶️ John cross origin request, whatever stuff. I know they, they have the thing where they require all
⏹️ ▶️ John your network connections to be secure and everything, but we’re not at the point where like the iPhone is like a little has a little
⏹️ ▶️ John snitch installed and tells you everything you’re connecting to. Do they have a thing where you have to list all the domains your app
⏹️ ▶️ John communicates with? Is that a requirement?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No. And that’s how Overcast can download podcasts.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because otherwise, that’d be a big problem. Yeah, I can imagine that coming on eventually,
⏹️ ▶️ John because that’s like the next frontier of creepy things that things can do. So the Bluetooth is one. And the other
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, I forget if you already talked about this or tweeted about it, but
⏹️ ▶️ John analytics packages, not just Chromecast SDK, but if you have any sort of thing, we’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John send your crash reports. and we’re a company that will, and by the way, we’ll also track the location of all your users and convey that
⏹️ ▶️ John information as well. Like using Bluetooth, again, to find location, like without GPS, like you can do Wi-Fi
⏹️ ▶️ John network mapping and there’s the Bluetooth stuff. So that’s another reason I think a lot of apps use it. Not because the app maker
⏹️ ▶️ John is trying to creepily do something, but because they merely embedded a third-party SDK that they had no idea was doing
⏹️ ▶️ John this. I bet half the people who embedded the Chromecast SDK don’t know. But anyway, the next frontier is,
⏹️ ▶️ John what kind, like where is this application sending your data, right? And
⏹️ ▶️ John if the, if the application vendors had to just whitelist and say, wow, this application is going
⏹️ ▶️ John to communicate with these domains, right? And then at least there’d be some way for
⏹️ ▶️ John both Apple to know what it’s supposed to do with and disallow connections to anything else. And maybe someplace for users to understand
⏹️ ▶️ John what it’s connecting to. Um, obviously for things like podcast applications, they’d have to have the
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to communicate with everything, right? Uh, which should would definitely be a thing that you
⏹️ ▶️ John should be able to ask for an Apple should give it to you, and then Apple would know what’s up with that application,
⏹️ ▶️ John and people who are interested in what things your app are communicating with could see the list and it
⏹️ ▶️ John says this app has the permission to communicate with any website or any server, and here are
⏹️ ▶️ John the last 100 servers that it communicated with, and you could look at that list, and maybe I’m going a little bit overboard, but it seems like that’s the direction
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is going, and that every way that app makers can find to
⏹️ ▶️ John funnel data into or out of the phone for purposes that the user of the application
⏹️ ▶️ John might not guess. Apple is adding controls to, adding visibility to, you know, not that
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re stopping them from doing that, but just that like, if it’s a legit thing you have to do, you should
⏹️ ▶️ John have no problem saying that, saying this is what my app is gonna do, and you shouldn’t be ashamed
⏹️ ▶️ John to explain that to your users, and it should, you should be able to explain it. Users, if
⏹️ ▶️ John you could explain it somewhere to either Apple or your users, they should be like, yeah, okay, that all makes sense, fine, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John If that’s not the case, and you’re like, Why is this application, you know, again, like in the old days, reading all my contacts
⏹️ ▶️ John and sending them up to the server. This application has nothing to do with my contacts. Why is it even doing that? Why is it tracking
⏹️ ▶️ John my location? Like, if you can’t explain that to your user, you shouldn’t be allowed to use it. So I like
⏹️ ▶️ John this type of change, even though it is producing yet more dialogue boxes. That was the other complaint
⏹️ ▶️ John that I saw on Twitter, that people were like, well, you’re just training people to click through all these dialogue
⏹️ ▶️ John boxes and click okay. Maybe, but it’s better than no dialogue box, in which case, you know, it has 100%
⏹️ ▶️ John of people essentially allowing it to happen because they’re never even prompted. So it’s it’s better
⏹️ ▶️ John than no dialogue box at all. How much better and how much dialogue fatigue are we getting? I’m not sure. But
⏹️ ▶️ John hopefully after the initial release, when everyone has to deal with all these dialogues, it will just fade
⏹️ ▶️ John into the background and not be such a common thing. And by the way, real time follow up so we don’t get this next week.
⏹️ ▶️ John The withings co founder bought the company back from Nokia in 2018. That’s fun. You sell your company
⏹️ ▶️ John to Nokia, some big company. Yeah. You sell your company to Nokia and presumably get a nice payday.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then, you know, the big company like squanders everything your company had
⏹️ ▶️ John and they sell it back to you for a song. So you’re back in control of your company and you made a nice windfall in the meantime.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s kind of great.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just, I think this is fascinating and I do love that Apple, as you guys have said, is calling
⏹️ ▶️ Casey more and more attention to this behavior that could, isn’t always, but could be nefarious. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think oftentimes it is either nefarious or laziness. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve been guilty of this. I can’t think of specific examples, certainly not with regard to Bluetooth, but I’ve been guilty of this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can see myself, and I don’t use any third-party analytics in Vignette, but I could totally see myself
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just throwing some analytics package in there and not realizing that I need to tweak this setting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey here or turn off this feature there in order to prevent this sort of dialogue from popping up. So I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey entirely blame your average app developer, but I definitely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey am creeped out by how many apps seem to be doing this. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was, I think Benjamin Heron had tweeted and you had retweeted a list of what looked to be like 50 plus
⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps that he had discovered on his phone that were trying to get Bluetooth access, which is just bananas. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s so hard because as you guys had said, how do you know where this data is going? How do you know if it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey using it to find your location in a tunnel or if it’s using it to try to figure out your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey specific point on the earth for an app that adds images to your contacts?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s so hard to say, but I do like that Apple’s surfacing this. I do like this effort to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey give more control to users, and I hope that this sort of thing continues. Another
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing like this is, and I don’t have anything to put in the show notes handy, but maybe we’ll be able to dig something up, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently when you delete an app that has has an associated subscription, it actually says to you, hey,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you still have a subscription for this thing, and it’s gonna re-up on such and such a date or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something like that, which I think is another great idea.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, it stinks for Marco in the sense that he might not collect money from people who
⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t even realize they were sending him money, but I know I speak for Marco in saying, that’s for the best, you know, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that’s okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That doesn’t suck. I actually really don’t want people’s money if they are like tricked into
⏹️ ▶️ Marco giving it to me. I really don’t want that at all.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I really like that as well. I just really like this direction. Yeah, I think, John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you had said that there’s fatigue about dialogues, there’s fatigue about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey subscriptions. We’re getting fatigued about everything, our current administration. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s worth it, I think. It’s worth it to see this and to think about this at least for a second.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that this behavior will change. Because the reason all these things are using Bluetooth
⏹️ ▶️ John because you didn’t have to prompt before, right? Once you have to prompt, it changes the equation entirely. We’ll have to find some new
⏹️ ▶️ John nefarious way to figure out where you are for the purposes of analytics, right? I mean, it’s kind of the same reason that, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I installed an analytics package that tells me what all my users are doing with the application and sends me crash
⏹️ ▶️ John reports. And to each crash report, it attaches the last 30 seconds of audio heard by the phone so I can hear the user
⏹️ ▶️ John cursing. That doesn’t happen because you need permission to get access to the microphone. And no one wants to prompt for that
⏹️ ▶️ John if their application doesn’t actually need it. it. So same thing with this new rule on Bluetooth.
⏹️ ▶️ John All these weird SDKs that don’t actually need Bluetooth and are just using it as a backdoor to get your location are going to
⏹️ ▶️ John find some other way.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Alright, I’m gonna go to sleep now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What’s going on with Mac Pro?
⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is the bottom of the barrel of Mac Pro topics.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Uh-huh, sure it is. How
⏹️ ▶️ John many times have we said this? things that were put into the document at WWDC. I think this is probably
⏹️ ▶️ John the last of them. This is about briefly
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey one small item about
⏹️ ▶️ John the afterburner card, which we had touched on before. The card that lets
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro deal with three simultaneous streams of 8K video or
⏹️ ▶️ John an even larger number of streams of 4K video. And it does all of the work of
⏹️ ▶️ John decoding and the video on this card. And it uses an FPGA, which is a
⏹️ ▶️ John field programmable gate array, which is basically like imagine a chip with a bunch of gates on it instead of someone
⏹️ ▶️ John deciding ahead of time how they should Be connected to each other and what they should do you can Program
⏹️ ▶️ John it to arrange itself. However, you want its field programmable so you can you know, take this
⏹️ ▶️ John Lego set of gates and Make essentially, you know
⏹️ ▶️ John the the chip that you want it to be and then it runs software after it has become that chip obviously it
⏹️ ▶️ John is Less efficient and bigger and hotter and all that than an actual custom designed
⏹️ ▶️ John integrated circuit that just does one thing But it’s very flexible and it
⏹️ ▶️ John was a couple questions about that Is that we see like why that why do they use an FPGA? What’s the deal with that? I thought my first guess was
⏹️ ▶️ John like maybe it’s time to market Like they were they were kind of in a rush for this Mac Pro and they wanted
⏹️ ▶️ John to have this afterburner card and maybe Making a custom chip in that time
⏹️ ▶️ John frame wasn’t feasible and it turns out an FPGA could do the job just as well and obviously it
⏹️ ▶️ John would be more expensive and take more power but money and power are two things the Mac Pro’s got plenty of so
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not a big deal. But when Craig Federi was on the talk show at WWDC he said
⏹️ ▶️ John that the reason they use an FPGA is because it’s reprogrammable like that it’s field programmable.
⏹️ ▶️ John Implying or outright saying I forget that essentially they’ll be able to change the
⏹️ ▶️ John card to reconfigure it maybe to do different things maybe to just do the same thing but better. But
⏹️ ▶️ John like that, that’s an actual goal that they, you know, it will be reprogrammable to change its
⏹️ ▶️ John behavior in one way or another, which is really cool. Again, I’m not sure how often Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John exercise this or whether it’s open to third parties, but that’s that makes that piece of hardware even
⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit more exciting. And then Doug Brooks on Mac Power Users podcast
⏹️ ▶️ John also at Macworld mentioned the afterburner card as a way for customers to to spec fewer
⏹️ ▶️ John CPU cores. That’s a money saving thing. Like if you get the afterburner card, then you don’t have to get the
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro with a bazillion cores because you’re offloading a big part of the hard work that the CPU
⏹️ ▶️ John would be doing to the second card. So Apple’s always looking out for your wallet with that Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John How much does that, we don’t even know. I was gonna say, how much does the afterburner card cost? Like that money saving thing only makes sense if the afterburner
⏹️ ▶️ John card itself is not like 10 grand or something. I have no idea. Obviously it’s probably not 10 grand, but we don’t have the prices
⏹️ ▶️ John on anything. So right now, it makes sense as a money-saving story. After we see, although it probably makes sense
⏹️ ▶️ John no matter what, because probably the most expensive thing, aside from RAM, that you can add to your Mac Pro, is
⏹️ ▶️ John to max out the CPU, because Intel’s prices are pretty nuts when you get that high.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, Intel is gonna have quite a good time with these CPU prices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on this. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the Afterburner, I would say, is unlikely to be under $1,000.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, it would be-
⏹️ ▶️ John The wheels are gonna be under $1,000. The stand is $1,000. Of course it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco gonna be over $1,000. Yeah, I’m guessing that’s like a $1,500 option maybe,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I don’t know anything about FPGA pricing. It’s interesting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that also they called it Afterburner. They didn’t call it ProRes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Accelerator. So I think that also opens them up to future
⏹️ ▶️ Marco expansion of this into other types of roles. There’s all sorts of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pro hardware that is basically some kind of accelerator card for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of specialized task that goes into a PCI Express slot. Apple themselves
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were bragging about things like Avid has some kind of accelerator,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco somebody has whatever, there’s some kind of DSP accelerator for I think Pro Tools or something,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. See, I don’t know this market at all, but many pro fields have these kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco accelerator cards that are usually basically like programmable thing, or not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco programmable, like specialized hardware to super accelerate some tasks, similar to how a GPU accelerates
⏹️ ▶️ Marco graphics calculations. I think there is a future here for other applications. And they probably will never be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a large number of other applications, but I bet there’s gonna be at least one to three more.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I think the main interesting prospect is that the card continues to do essentially the
⏹️ ▶️ John same job, but then it gets better at it and supports more different codecs and formats or whatever as time goes
⏹️ ▶️ John on. They protect your investment that way, Not that suddenly the FPGA is reprogrammed as like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, a Bitcoin miner or something, of all that is
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey certainly possible, but
⏹️ ▶️ John seems like not something that Apple would be into.
Pro Display longevity
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, tell me about the Pro Display XDR.
⏹️ ▶️ John One more leftover item from our discussion of that, longevity. We talked so much about the price and the stand and all
⏹️ ▶️ John the other stuff, and we talked about the longevity of the Mac Pro itself, but the final
⏹️ ▶️ John thing to consider for this horrendously expensive but cheap if you want a reference monitor display
⏹️ ▶️ John is how long do you think it will last? As I sit here in front of a 10-year-old monitor that
⏹️ ▶️ John is, as far as I can tell, as perfect as the day I bought it, does not have any dead
⏹️ ▶️ John pixels, doesn’t have any image retention, isn’t any dimmer, like it just, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John monitors, in theory, if they don’t have anything weird and complicated inside them, can last a very long
⏹️ ▶️ John time. The biggest thing in favor of the longevity of this display
⏹️ ▶️ John is the number of pixels on it, in that 10 years from now, you’re not going to be like, well, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know, it depends on how well Apple does with the glasses thing. But presumably, if current trends continue 10 years from now, you will
⏹️ ▶️ John not look at this 30-whatever inch monitor and be like, I really need a bigger monitor or I need, I need
⏹️ ▶️ John more pixels. Uh, I certainly won’t cause my vision was just getting worse, not better. So
⏹️ ▶️ John features wise, if that monitor is not going to look old or small
⏹️ ▶️ John or dim anytime soon, but there are many things
⏹️ ▶️ John on the other side of the longevity equation, aside from assuming it continues to work perfectly, will you be disappointed with this? No.
⏹️ ▶️ John The assuming it continues to work perfectly thing is very fraught because this is not
⏹️ ▶️ John a sort of Reliable implementation of a proven technology for monitors
⏹️ ▶️ John as far as I’m aware There is no monitor and Apple was tried emphasis emphasize this it has
⏹️ ▶️ John the same features and is built the same way as this monitor There are televisions that are built the
⏹️ ▶️ John same way as this monitor, but they’re very different. They have far fewer pixels They are much larger
⏹️ ▶️ John They have you know have much more headroom for cooling because they’re not shoved into a smaller space
⏹️ ▶️ John and so that’s the only real analog we have and Televisions getting around 10 years
⏹️ ▶️ John no matter what technology they’re built on you start to ask questions Right about that reliability
⏹️ ▶️ John about just the circuitry in there and everything this display. I Guess if all
⏹️ ▶️ John goes well, maybe you get 10 years out of it, but it’s got moving parts. It’s got two fans.
⏹️ ▶️ John I I mean the fans in my Mac Pro are okay, but that tends to be the type of thing that dies. I’ve gone through many GPU
⏹️ ▶️ John coolers in my Mac Pro which are obviously of lower quality than the fans that Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John puts in the entire thing. So maybe the fans will last 10 years? Will the cooling be sufficient? Will some part
⏹️ ▶️ John of that thing be baking? Will it have image retention problems? The whole HDR thing?
⏹️ ▶️ John The back of it being a heatsink makes me think it’s going to be generating a considerable amount of heat. So my confidence
⏹️ ▶️ John in this monitor, actually physically lasting 10 years and continuing to function,
⏹️ ▶️ John is not that great. So if you’re thinking of buying this and you think it’s gonna,
⏹️ ▶️ John yes, it’s horrendously expensive, but I’m sure I’ll use it for 10 years, I wouldn’t bet on that. And the other thing to keep
⏹️ ▶️ John in mind is, this technology, dynamic backlit LCD
⏹️ ▶️ John with a bunch of LEDs that turn on and off, there’s a reason it is not the top tier
⏹️ ▶️ John technology in televisions anymore, because it is more complicated and not as good quality
⏹️ ▶️ John as OLED, which is a much simpler technology that gives you essentially the same results. Will
⏹️ ▶️ John there be an OLED screen that surpasses this? Certainly there could be an OLED screen that is much
⏹️ ▶️ John simpler than this. OLEDs have a problem with brightness. It’s harder to get,
⏹️ ▶️ John like on OLED televisions, you can get a very bright little square in the middle of the TV,
⏹️ ▶️ John but if you fill the entire screen with white, they don’t have enough power to drive that the brightness levels that
⏹️ ▶️ John the that an LED backlit thing does. So so there’s that disadvantage but other than that
⏹️ ▶️ John OLEDs are so much simpler thinner and don’t require as many fans don’t have
⏹️ ▶️ John multiple layers of filters and circuitry to control which parts of the backlight are on like there
⏹️ ▶️ John is no backlight it is self-emissive each pixels gives off its own light so I would
⏹️ ▶️ John imagine in 10 years this display it won’t seem old because it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John too small or has too few pixels or doesn’t look as good, but it will seem, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know, kind of like my Mac Pro does now with a bunch of spinning disks and nine fans
⏹️ ▶️ John in it and all that other stuff. There’s just, it’s a lot of bulk and a lot of machinery and a lot of heat and a
⏹️ ▶️ John lot of power to get a result that you can get from a much thinner, completely silent, fanless,
⏹️ ▶️ John much cooler OLED. That’s my hope anyway, that in 10 years there is
⏹️ ▶️ John a replacement that had those attributes. Because certainly that’s true of televisions now. Like, I mean, my Plasma TV with all its
⏹️ ▶️ John fans and this giant power draw and it’s huge hot stuff. You replace that with an OLED, no
⏹️ ▶️ John fans, much quieter, much less power. I expect that to happen in the modern world as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I guess I’m mostly telling this to myself. Like, how
⏹️ ▶️ John am I justifying this horrendous display? It’s not because I’m gonna keep it for 10 years.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m gonna buy it with the expectation that it might not even outlast the Mac Pro. I might still have that Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro 10 years from now, you know, with all the internals upgraded 10 times over, but the display might have died
⏹️ ▶️ John by then, and I’m mostly okay with that, but keep that in mind if you were thinking of plugging
⏹️ ▶️ John down the price of a car for this system.
Cold purchasing feet?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I cannot wait until we get to the point that you can spec this out. Both of you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can spec this out and see exactly what you’re in for because, oh boy, this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is going to be something else.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I already know that it’s going to, like what I want is probably, what I want is probably going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 18 grand. Like it’s probably going to be some obscene amount of money. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also, I really don’t think I’m going to get one. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. You get one briefly. The resale value should be pretty good on these, especially if you decide after
⏹️ ▶️ John six months that you don’t want it anymore. I mean, you found that out with the trash can, that it wasn’t the computer
⏹️ ▶️ John for you and you sold it and the resale price was reasonable. Like, you didn’t take too much of a bath. It’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John like rolling your Ferrari off the lot and you lose 150K. No, I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reason I sold the trash can after a short time was that the 5K iMac came out and I wanted desktop retina
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so badly and there was no good way to do it on the trash can for a while, if ever, after that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But otherwise, I really enjoyed it. I liked it at the time I bought it. It was fine for me. It wasn’t as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ideal as an expandable tower, but it was actually great. And actually, it would be more ideal for me now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than I think the new Mac Pro, which is unfortunate. But that’s not to say they should go back to it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But no, I think the more I think about it, the more I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iMac Pro really is probably the best computer for me.
⏹️ ▶️ John You have to buy it at least briefly because I need someone to buy it and tell me about if it’s finicky and weird. So
⏹️ ▶️ John you have that duty to fulfill.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You have to be that person, John. After 10 years, you have to finally
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I want someone else to tell me if it’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lemon. And we’ll see. And if they do resolve the monitor situation by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco offering some kind of 5K monitor that’s compelling and well-priced,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that might change my calculus. But for now, with the only good monitor being
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 6K monster that while I would love a 6K display, I don’t need any
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the fancy backlighting and HDR, like I don’t need any of that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really just want a larger version of what I already have in the iMac, because the iMac Pro monitor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is already dramatically overspecced for what I actually use it for, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not dramatically overpriced for what I use it for. Whereas I currently don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use a $40,000 reference monitor because I don’t need one. And so for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple to make a really nice $6,000 one, that’s great, but I still don’t need it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m really leaning towards iMac Pro still because I have it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco already, first of all, so it’s kind of free. So I have it already and it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good. And I have, there’s nothing wrong with my iMac Pro. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so maybe if things start going bad in a few years or like maybe like if I have problems with the screen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the iMac Pro, that might push me in the direction of a Mac Pro to separate those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco concerns. But right now I’m not motivated to make a change.
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. This is what happens when Apple doesn’t put up the configurator, because once that configurator goes up, suddenly
⏹️ ▶️ John Marco’s trigger finger gets a little itchy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I give you a hard time Marco, But in a lot of ways, I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the both of you, I think John more than Marco, but the both of you have been longing for this computer since
⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably before the trashcan came out. And I don’t know you, Marco, to be one to shy away from trying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something new. And I will be flabbergasted if you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least pull a, I don’t know if it’s a pulling a Steven or pulling a Marco at this point, because you two are competing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey over who buys and resells or returns computers more often. But anyways, you’ll pull
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a something and buy one of these and then. I suspect
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’ll end up keeping it, but I am not nearly as confident as I was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey before we started really thinking about what this pricing is going to be, but I will be utterly flabbergasted
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you don’t at least briefly have one that you own in your house, even if it leaves within
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the two week return window, or perhaps like the two to six months Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey quote-unquote return window wherein you will sell it to somebody else.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Possibly John. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the only way I can get one at a discount. I would never sell a computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to John, are you kidding? I’m sure you would. Imagine, oh my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey god, no. No way.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree with Marco on this a hundred percent. Why? I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John sure you would. It would still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be under warranty.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If something goes wrong with it, it’s my fault. I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ John going to blame you. It’s under warranty. You would totally blame
⏹️ ▶️ John blame you. I mean, I might drive there to pick it up. I probably wouldn’t let you ship it, but.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, you would totally do your little grumble, like, well, you know, the GPU just died.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Probably wouldn’t happen if.
⏹️ ▶️ John That happens, like, you know, like I said.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco must have dropped it.
⏹️ ▶️ John This computer has been through a lot of GPUs. Like, it happens, it’ll be fine. I would take the
⏹️ ▶️ John discount. There’s no way I would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever sell you any hardware.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, I cannot possibly agree with you more on this issue. There is not a chance
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I would sell John. And now, giving it to him, which of course you wouldn’t do with a computer this expensive,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, giving it to him, that’s a different story. Right. But selling
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco No. No. No.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, I normally don’t sell things to people I know. Like, if I’m gonna give it to somebody, I’ll just give
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it to them. And if it’s something that’s too expensive for that, I’ll sell it to a stranger on the internet. Because I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want there to be that awkwardness of, like, if something goes wrong with it down the road, that’s really weird,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? So I really don’t like selling things to people I know, but among the list of people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know, John would be the last person I would
⏹️ ▶️ John sell it to. It’s better to sell it to somebody you know because I know that you don’t mistreat your hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ John so it wouldn’t be a suspicion in my mind that you had stored it in a room with 700 cats and been chain
⏹️ ▶️ John smoking in front of it for a year and then dropped it off your desk. I
⏹️ ▶️ John know that’s not how you treat your hardware, And so I would be assured that it
⏹️ ▶️ John hadn’t been mishandled by you, it could have been mishandled by UPS or anything else, which is why I might drive
⏹️ ▶️ John to go get it or whatever. But that’s true of anything I get shipped to myself too. Like you can’t control that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, still not worth
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. I still agree with Marco on this one. I would not wish that upon my biggest enemy.
⏹️ ▶️ John to deny me the Marco discount, which I need, I mean need desperately.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You wanna start making YouTube videos? I got some video gear. It’s silly. Pass. I
⏹️ ▶️ John got all the video gear I need on my PlayStation. Yikes.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so one other thing we’ve wanted to talk about over the last couple of weeks is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this whole sign in with Apple thing. So I think it was during the keynote or maybe the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey State of the Union, but it was something on Monday that Apple announced that instead of doing, or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s kind of like a peer sort of to log in with Facebook or log in with Google, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will be able to sign in with Apple and use your iCloud account in order to sign in to other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey services. So presumably, there will be some API that Apple is vending that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will let, say, Overcast, for example, use some sort of token or credentials
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from Apple in order to give you an Overcast account. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this all sounded well and good, people were excited about this, including me. But what was interesting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was something that somebody spotted. I forget where this was, but this is a screenshot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we got from somewhere. Sign in with Apple will be available for beta testing this summer. It will be required
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as an option for users and apps that support third party sign in when it is commercially available later
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this year. Well, shots fired. So this is extremely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool In general, I’m not sure what I think about forcing it upon
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people, well, companies really, but it’s really a great idea. And one of the things I talked about during the keynote
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or State of the Union or wherever it was, was that they’ll actually give a vendor,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so say Overcast, like this completely cryptic, not fake, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey unique email address that will proxy emails from say Overcast to you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so that Overcast, and I’m picking on Overcast, not just because Marco’s here, but that will proxy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey emails from Overcast to you so the evil people at Overcast can never see your actual email
⏹️ ▶️ Casey address. It just seems like it’s really, really well done. I don’t know how I feel about this forcing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people to use it, though. So before we talk about forcing people to use it, any other notes about kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s important to clarify in what conditions they are forcing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people to use it. Okay, tell me more. It’s easy if you just kind of glance at this and the rule
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to think that they are going to require any app with user accounts to use this. And a lot of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reactions I’ve seen have seemed to be based on that assumption, but that’s not what they’re saying. You can use it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for user accounts, but you aren’t required to. When you are required to offer it is if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco offer login or registration, you know, if if you offer user account login
⏹️ ▶️ Marco via third party things like social networks. Interesting. I have my own
⏹️ ▶️ Marco account system in Overcast. So I don’t need to offer this because I don’t have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an Overcast login screen that says sign in with Google, sign in with Facebook. So therefore I’m not required
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do this. The only people, as the rule’s written, the only people who are required to do this right now or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who will be required this fall are apps that offer sign in with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco third party thing as their account system.
⏹️ ▶️ John Or in addition to their account system. Like they might have a, you know, they always call it, in websites, they call it sign in with email,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is basically make an account on my system or don’t bother making an account and we’ll just authenticate you using whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John your social network or thingamabob is. Yeah. So I think a lot of apps do that. They have their own
⏹️ ▶️ John account system, but they have those other convenient ones. And then the private email thing is kind of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the thing that tech nerds have done forever, where they give a unique email address to each service, it
⏹️ ▶️ John is just a pending a plus and a service name or something like that so that when they get spam, they can have the satisfaction of
⏹️ ▶️ John knowing, aha, I only gave this specific email address to this company and so
⏹️ ▶️ John I know that this company sold my name. What they do with that information other than being satisfied
⏹️ ▶️ John briefly, I don’t know because every company sells your email address. Like, they all do that and what
⏹️ ▶️ John are you gonna do? Now I’m never going to buy anything from insert store name soon you can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John buy anything anywhere ever again because they all
⏹️ ▶️ John information. They all do. But this privacy thing is like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it does this for you, it doesn’t do like your name plus and some tag, it’s just entirely, you know, random
⏹️ ▶️ John cryptic type thing. And then you can sort of turn it off. You can say, well, I’m done with that one.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want that email address to connect to my actual email address anymore. And so you won’t
⏹️ ▶️ John hear from them anymore. Like it just disconnects it. Which is probably not what you wanna do. You do want
⏹️ ▶️ John them to stop spamming you, but you also still wanna get the email that confirms your order at the whatever online store
⏹️ ▶️ John that you bought it. But anyway, that option is there. I think the most interesting thing about that option though,
⏹️ ▶️ John is Apple has said they won’t retain any of your messages. But it’s like, good, we didn’t expect you to Apple doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John want our email. But But But But the way the system works is
⏹️ ▶️ John big, long cryptic, weird looking hex string at something that something that apple.com
⏹️ ▶️ John was like private that apple, like I don’t know whatever it is it’s the email goes to
⏹️ ▶️ John an Apple server. The Apple server using the email system as we know it, then stores
⏹️ ▶️ John and forwards that email to your actual address. So the email passes through Apple. So
⏹️ ▶️ John we are essentially trusting Apple to not look at these emails, the vast, vast, vast majority,
⏹️ ▶️ John which are not encrypted in any way. Email is a plain text format. Most people don’t have, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John signing keys and also those stuff, you know, you can. So there is an inherent
⏹️ ▶️ John part of this feature that relies on people having trust in Apple, which I think is entirely well founded
⏹️ ▶️ John because Apple doesn’t make money by scanning your email and selling advertising based on what the content
⏹️ ▶️ John of or so on and so forth. But that is an aspect of the system. Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John is the has the best reputation for privacy among these big companies actually is
⏹️ ▶️ John the best on privacy for, you know, for the economic reasons. And so I think this won’t
⏹️ ▶️ John be much of a barrier because people honestly don’t even understand what all the other big companies to do with email, but for
⏹️ ▶️ John tech people, it’s a good thing to understand if you decide to use that. Because if you give the company, if you give this online
⏹️ ▶️ John store your actual email, the email will not necessarily
⏹️ ▶️ John pass through Apple. So it’s way back to you, because again, email is a store and forward, and you have no idea how many places your email
⏹️ ▶️ John is being stored and forwarded to. And who gets access to it? And if you have a Gmail address, Google can see it, and
⏹️ ▶️ John if you have a whatever address, then maybe your email vendor can see it. And best not to think about email. Not
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey particularly secure.
⏹️ ▶️ John Not particularly secure, but that’s one thing to keep in mind. And the final thing I think is interesting about
⏹️ ▶️ John this and the reason I’ve wanted a feature like this for such a long time and the reason people offer sign in
⏹️ ▶️ John with Facebook, sign in with Google. Is there a sign in with Twitter? I don’t even know. I think some things have that. I think so. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ John the reason they do this is because no one wants to set up a new account. It’s friction in the process. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John a barrier to entry. It makes lots of people say, Oh, I don’t want to have to set up a thing. And it used to be
⏹️ ▶️ John back in the even worse old days. So I’m not gonna call the bad old days. We’re still in the bad old days. The even worse old days,
⏹️ ▶️ John they would make you pick a username. Do you remember that, where you had to pick a username and the username you wanted would be taken?
⏹️ ▶️ John And so you wouldn’t even be able to remember what the heck you put, because your first and last name are taken, your first name is taken, your last
⏹️ ▶️ John name is taken, your first and last initial are taken, and so you can never remember what you put. Thankfully,
⏹️ ▶️ John from the even worse old days till today, most sites have switched to doing an email address, which hopefully
⏹️ ▶️ John you have some stable version of, which is, again, not a great system, especially when you use third party email vendors
⏹️ ▶️ John and a domain that you don’t own. But no one wants to set up an account. I don’t want to put in my first name and last name. I don’t have to put it
⏹️ ▶️ John in my address. I don’t know how to uncheck all the check boxes about the spam. Like it takes a long time and it’s annoying.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to do that. I’m in the middle of trying to buy something or do a thing. Just let me do the thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John So sign in with Facebook is like, oh, I’m already signed into Facebook in all my web
⏹️ ▶️ John browsers and in the application and on this phone. So I’ll just tap the sign in with Facebook and it will bounce me through the little,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, single sign on thing. and I won’t even have to enter anything because I’m already signed in and the embedded
⏹️ ▶️ John web view already has my cookies and it’ll just sail right through and I don’t have to think about it. I don’t have to make a new account. I already have a
⏹️ ▶️ John Facebook account. Let me just reduce the friction. That’s why people use that
⏹️ ▶️ John feature. I use that feature sometimes. Every time I use it, I regret it because I use
⏹️ ▶️ John it to sign with Google, not sign with Facebook, obviously. But I don’t like the idea of
⏹️ ▶️ John Google being that much of a linchpin, even though my email address is at Google anyway. And so
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, it’s convenient in the moment. Long term, perhaps
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not that great. But the advantage that Apple has is they have even less friction
⏹️ ▶️ John than sign in with Google and sign in with Facebook. Because while you’re using your phone,
⏹️ ▶️ John you are signed in to your Apple ID if you have any iCloud. I don’t even know, can you even
⏹️ ▶️ John get onto your phone without any kind of iCloud sign in? I suppose you probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can. But they really fight you on it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but nobody does that. Because if you wanna do anything useful on your phone, in any way,
⏹️ ▶️ John like buy apps, which is a thing I feel like you might wanna do on your phone, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna have an Apple ID and you’re gonna be signed into it. And that sign-in process has access
⏹️ ▶️ John to Touch ID and Face ID and your keychain with all your passwords on it
⏹️ ▶️ John that sync across all your other Apple devices, even if you don’t use a third-party piece of software and the new strong
⏹️ ▶️ John password generation. It is even lower friction.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t even want to have to bounce through another site. I just want it to be like when I make a purchase in the App Store
⏹️ ▶️ John or Apple Pay on the web where it just, like I’m staring at the screen and it looks at my face
⏹️ ▶️ John and it approves it and it goes through. I barely even need to hit anything except for the double tap on the side thing for Apple Pay.
⏹️ ▶️ John But for login, you won’t have to do anything. Just hit for it, sign in with Apple, continue to stare at your screen and get signed
⏹️ ▶️ John in. Using an account that you probably already have from a company that has the best reputation and privacy
⏹️ ▶️ John in the entire industry you already trust with certain amount of information because you’re using an iPhone and you’re presumably
⏹️ ▶️ John buying apps from the App Store. I can’t wait to use this feature.
⏹️ ▶️ John In the same way that I enjoy using Apple Pay, which means I don’t have to remember or enter my credit card
⏹️ ▶️ John information or whatever, and that the site doesn’t have to doesn’t get and retain my credit card information.
⏹️ ▶️ John I would love to sign in to everything with sign in with Apple. I already have an Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John identity. I’m probably always going to have an Apple identity for for as long as the company exists. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John already signed into it everywhere. It’s the ultimate friction
⏹️ ▶️ John reduction in sign-in that is possible on the devices that I use. So I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John looking forward to this feature. I probably won’t use the private email thing because honestly, everybody
⏹️ ▶️ John has my email, like the entire universe has my email. There is no way it could get more spam.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like there’s not, it’s not like, I will, I’ll keep my email
⏹️ ▶️ John private. That way I’ll get less spam. No, you won’t. You won’t get less spam. It’s impossible. Anyway, I’m probably not going to use that feature, but they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John nice for including it and it will make paranoid people happy and give them something to do as they deny people access to the email
⏹️ ▶️ John by turning it off and then don’t understand why they didn’t get a confirmation of their order.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I’m really looking forward to signing in as easily as I pay for stuff with Apple Pay, probably even easier.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Marco, do you plan to offer this then?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t so the short answer is I don’t know yet what if I were starting brand new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco today if I didn’t have an existing app to to have you know legacy about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wouldn’t have an account system at all I would store everything in cloud kit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and try not to even run servers and just get myself out of that business
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s reasons why now I’m regretting where I currently stand first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all while I’m going through a whole bunch of server upgrades and database upgrades and everything, and it’s really quite a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of work, and it’s very frustrating. So that’s part of it. Like, it’s like, oh man, I wish I could just get rid of all this user data,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I’m trying to. But another part is that the future world of where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple is pushing us as soon as this fall is multiple devices. And Overcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has a sync backend and a web player, and has had an iPhone and iPad app for years.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m already in the multi-device world, but where they’re really pushing us is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a lot more people to have multiple instances of Overcast, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the most common ones is probably going to end up being the Watch app. In fact, I think already
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Watch app, not the standalone playback, but I think the Watch app in general has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco significantly more users than my iPad app, so that’s why I kind of have to care about it. As I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco facing the prospect of rebuilding my Watch app, again, to be an independent app, as well as looking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the Catalina, I’m sorry, the Catalyst version to have the Mac app also exist,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m looking at a whole bunch of places where people are gonna have to log into Overcast. And every time somebody has to log
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into their existing account, that introduces the potential for them to abandon the effort
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just say, forget it and delete the app. Or it introduces the potential for them to inadvertently create a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new account, and then they have two different accounts and they have a problem and they lose their data
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or they email me or they get all confused. So having all this account stuff is a pain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s a pain for everybody, for the users, for me to have to manage it and own it and everything. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want accounts anymore. The reality is I have accounts and I have a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco large number of users who have accounts. I would love to migrate to an entirely CloudKit-based system,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I don’t think I have time this summer to do that. Like that would be a massive undertaking.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would probably take six months. First a few months to implement it, and then a few months to fix all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the bugs that would result. So at least six months, possibly up to a year, I think, to do something like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I would love to be in a place where I was starting fresh and had no accounts at all.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not in that place, though. I have this technical burden of users.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sorry, I love you all. and user base
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to move forward. I can’t just start clean and throw everything away.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So from that point of view, I am probably stuck with my account system
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while. So that being said, I should probably offer this to make it even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco easier, but then I worry like, is everyone just gonna tap this and now they have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And then, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know. You’d have to like port them, like have a migration process where if they tapped it, And
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple offers APIs for you to be able to do this. If they use the same email
⏹️ ▶️ John address to sign up for their account, or you could say, are you sure you have another account? Or you might have a record of their other account
⏹️ ▶️ John on the other devices, like you do now for the sign-in, across iPad and iPhone. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right now, I do iCloud syncing of the login token. So that way, when you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco set up the app on a new iCloud connected device, it prompts you to say, hey, do you want to use the account from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco’s iPhone? And you can say yes, and it just logs you in, which is how I can have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco email and passwordless accounts that still have multi-device sync. Although that doesn’t work on the website.
⏹️ ▶️ John So you could use that to convert. But like you mentioned CloudKit and everything. That was originally one of
⏹️ ▶️ John the big selling points of CloudKit. CloudKit was essentially sign in with Apple because it’s like, oh, each user can have a
⏹️ ▶️ John certain amount of data. And it was like sign in, let’s sign in. It’s like, well, what do you mean each user can have a certain amount of data? How
⏹️ ▶️ John do you know what user the data belongs to? Ah, well, they’re signed into their Apple ID on their phone. And when you use
⏹️ ▶️ John CloudKit, it just implicitly uses that and problem solved, right? And there was no login,
⏹️ ▶️ John it was basically your accountless account. This is just one step farther. Like this seems like an
⏹️ ▶️ John ideal fit for the way you wanna deal with accounts by not dealing with them. This would give you that solution, but you
⏹️ ▶️ John do have this legacy problem and you’d have to somehow figure out how to convert and it’ll be a big pain in the butt. If you could magically
⏹️ ▶️ John convert all of your accounts to sign in with Apple accounts, I’m sure you would, but that’s not the type of thing you can do
⏹️ ▶️ John behind the scenes for people. So you just have to, I mean, depending on what you think your growth
⏹️ ▶️ John curve is like, you could offer it as a conversion and push it on first launch and
⏹️ ▶️ John make all new users be faced with a giant default button to sign in with Apple and just slowly drain
⏹️ ▶️ John the swamp and phase out the, that phrase
⏹️ ▶️ John had meanings in the software context before it was destroyed, just like red baseball hats.
⏹️ ▶️ John You could slowly convert all your other things to sign in with Apple. I still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco miss red hats being wearable. Like, that’s.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven McLaughlin Marco, I miss a lot from the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John better days.
⏹️ ▶️ John Paul Rubin The before times, yes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will say though, so one thing I’ve been doing as part of my big database
⏹️ ▶️ Marco migration is, you know, I’ve been running Overcast since 2014. So I have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like five years almost. Next month makes five years of user data.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And GDPR happened, and so all of a sudden I had to start like, you know, making sure I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really adhering to these rules, but also like, you know, get express consent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything. And my, my pre GDPR privacy update, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco added a splash screen at first launch to existing users saying basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco prompting them to remove the email address from their account to convert email accounts into anonymous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco accounts. And I, and I added all this stuff to be able to go back and forth whenever you wanted to change your password, change your email, whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want. But I really encourage people, you know, on first launch to lose their email
⏹️ ▶️ Marco address, basically in Overcast. And which by the way, created a ton of support problems.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let me tell you, I’m still paying for that. With like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, people who basically lost track of their accounts because they then signed out or they deleted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it unexpectedly. Anyway, so I prompted everyone then and I also made it such that on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new user screen, I don’t even give you a chance to create a new email account.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco First you have to create an anonymous account and then if you want to add an email to it later in the account settings
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen you can. The result of this is that my rate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of acquiring new email addresses went down substantially, but I still had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of these user accounts from the last four years
⏹️ ▶️ Marco before that, most of which had email addresses on them. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco over the last few days, I have deleted over a million accounts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Holy smoke.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because it’s been, so I basically, you know, I was smart enough to,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a long time now, to record on the user account the timestamp
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they last either logged in or synced anything. So basically the timestamp of their last activity.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It turns out, you know, like, and I know how many active users I have, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my number of total user accounts was many times that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Defined as monthly active users. So I have many times the amount of monthly active users
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in just user accounts. This happens to pretty much every web service. That’s why VCs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanna know your active user count, not your user account count. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the number of user accounts you have is fairly meaningless because tons of people create an account,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco try it for an hour, delete it, move on. or people accidentally create multiple accounts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they only end up using one of them or whatever. So I had all these user accounts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So before I did this bulk delete, oh, and my heuristic was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco accounts that were not currently subscribers,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco had never bought an ad, because I offer ad buyers a dashboard where they can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco log in and see the stats of the ads they bought, and had not had any activity in at least a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco year, and had not been created in the last few days. You know, so like that’s, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, making sure to check for that in case somebody like creates an account and then it gets deleted immediately because there was no activity
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it, right? That would be terrible. So anyway, I ran this and it deleted over a million accounts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And now the vast majority of my accounts that are left don’t have email
⏹️ ▶️ Marco addresses on them. So I feel like I’m making great progress here. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting rid of as much user data as I can, but I still need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get to that holy grail of, like, I just want none of this user
⏹️ ▶️ Marco data, or I want 100% of it to be anonymous. And there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some friction involved in getting there. And one step might be, I keep all the user data, but I lose all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the email addresses. And I’ve experimented with various ways of doing this over the last few years, but I haven’t come up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with anything that actually is a good idea yet. Like one idea I had was to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hash them all, the same way you hash passwords, and just store the hashes of email addresses.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This creates a number of technical issues if you do this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Believe me,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve looked into this. It’s surprisingly tricky to attempt
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, so I mostly haven’t yet. But in a world where I have a Mac app, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ability to log in to the website and use a web player becomes way less
⏹️ ▶️ Marco important. And already that’s incredibly unpopular because it’s terrible. Like, and most people don’t even know you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can. Like, already my web player is a waste. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I have a Mac app that you can log into and sync everything, like I would still, in my scenario
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my head here, I would still have web addresses that you could go to for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco each podcast. Share links could still work. You could still like share a link and it would have a player.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It just wouldn’t be tied to anybody’s user account so you couldn’t log in to the website in this world
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have playback synced and everything. So the only people this would really hurt if I got rid of that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco after I have a Mac app would be people who use the web player when logged into their
⏹️ ▶️ Marco account on a Windows PC at work. And that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a really small number of people. This is where I wanna move to. None of this has anything to do with signing with Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I’m sorry for this massive tangent. with Apple is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I were trying to get more accounts with email addresses, whether they were
⏹️ ▶️ Marco valid or proxy, I don’t care, if I was trying to get more email-based accounts, logging
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Apple would be great. I would use it immediately, no question. But I’m trying to get less of that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m trying to get rid of the email addresses I have, trying to have as little personal information from anybody as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possible. And so it’s not going to do anything for me. If they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco force me to use it, I will, but I currently don’t plan to because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all it would be doing would be adding more robust support for something I don’t even
⏹️ ▶️ John Do you have to get their email address if you sign in with Apple? I think you have to explicitly ask for it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s it, yeah, so maybe they just give me an ID, basically, some kind of unique identifier.
⏹️ ▶️ John like basically the equivalent of an access token or some unique identifier, But
⏹️ ▶️ John in the API, you have to say, the examples they always give, like if you want to ask them for their email address and their first
⏹️ ▶️ John and last name. And I didn’t dig into it deep enough to know, are they just saying that to say, like, oh, if you want their name, you have to
⏹️ ▶️ John ask for that extra? But I think the idea is, if you don’t want any of that, don’t ask for it, and your app won’t ever have it. It
⏹️ ▶️ John really is completely opaque as far as your thing. You should check out the API to see what the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are. That would be interesting. Then I could prompt everyone to sign in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Apple on first launch of the new version, associate that ID
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with their accounts and just have that be the anonymous account.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, it’s kind of like CloudKit. You don’t get their email address when you use CloudKit. Well, how do you know who they
⏹️ ▶️ John are? Well, it’s just what they’re signed into and the API uses it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s not a bad idea, because that also works on the website. Because they have, they said they’re gonna have some kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John web gateway.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, signing with Apple works on the web
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too. It’s just like signing with Facebook. That is an interesting option.
⏹️ ▶️ John Add it to your short list of things you might need to do to overcast.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, right, oh God. No, because like, I want, like when people, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really wanna have an independent watch app for this fall, and honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people out there, you all love the apps you use, you all know the developers of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps you use, and you all are asking the developers of the apps you use, so are you gonna be there on day one?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let me tell you, as one of these developers, this summer, the answer for many of us is gonna be no.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everything that we have access to now from WBDC, all these new tools and APIs and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco platforms and everything. This is a lot of work. Summer’s only a couple months long.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is gonna be like, I have a feeling like this fall, we’re gonna be seeing a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of really bad apps and a lot of apps that people are kind of apologizing for.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, sorry, this is what I have ready now. It’ll get better later. And a lot of developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are just gonna be like, sorry, my, you know, Catalyst slash independent watch app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco isn’t gonna be ready yet, and maybe next year, or maybe later in the winter or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s gonna be a long time for a lot of apps to update to all this stuff, because there’s just so much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new stuff. I would love for the first time you install
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my new independent watch app, for that login screen to pop up, and for there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be a quick sign in with Apple button right there, and then you’re just done, and you never have to deal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with anything else again. Because there is kind of a massive question of like, How do you log in on the watch otherwise?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if iCloud works with my existing setup, great. What if it doesn’t? What if you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get the message from iCloud? Or what if you’re not logged in? Or who knows, God knows
⏹️ ▶️ John what, right? So I’m just signing in by writing their email address with the Apple TV remote pointed at their watch.
⏹️ ▶️ John all of Apple’s worst input methods.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, or I could have one of those terrible things where the watch displays a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco four-digit alphanumeric code and you type it on your phone. There’s ways I could do it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It just sucks. All those ways. Have the watch display a barcode and then have the phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco camera recognize it. But then I need to prompt for camera access. There’s just so many bad ways to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do this and only a couple of good ones. So I would love
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have that experience be better for initial sign in for both the Mac app and the watch app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once those exist, right now neither of them do. But I’m hoping they exist
⏹️ ▶️ Marco soon. Anyway, so, signing with Apple might be the way to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, but I’ll see, because that also creates a problem.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If I make that the way to use my app, what about those people, many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of whom still exist, who have multiple individuals
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who share the same Apple ID in order to share purchases from forever ago before family sharing existed?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And what if they both use Overcast, but separately, because they’re separate people? You gotta add profiles
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Overcast. Oh my God. Right, so like right now, like you know, when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have a separate account system, that’s fine, you can have, it doesn’t matter,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, who’s Apple ID is, you get occasional collisions on the login screen when, you know, one of them is offered the other one’s login
⏹️ ▶️ Marco token on a new account, but you know, otherwise, like they can just say, no, use my other account, it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If signing with Apple becomes my account identifier system, two people who use the same Apple ID
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can no longer have two separate Overcast accounts.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can add profiles, just have the sign in with Apple ID be a new ID that points to one
⏹️ ▶️ John or more of your existing email list IDs. You know what I mean?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. I could do that. Boy, that sucks. There’s so many ways to make this suck. Well, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know. I mean, it would still be only one sign in for everybody. You’d still be able to present a profile screen, but your back end is exactly the
⏹️ ▶️ John same. Your sync engine deals with the secondary ID, not the primary
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one. Yeah, that’s not a bad idea. Why are you so good at this?
⏹️ ▶️ John Database backend web services is all I do. Yeah, that actually isn’t a bad idea.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, don’t worry about it. Do the watch out
⏹️ ▶️ John To briefly bring it back to Sign in with Apple before we finally move on to Ask ADP,
⏹️ ▶️ John the other thing to note about Sign in with Apple is the same feature that they call Sign in with Apple, you can
⏹️ ▶️ John use this exact same feature to let people basically just look up their password in
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple’s keychain, right? So it’s a totally an old school email address and password
⏹️ ▶️ John login system on your website, on your app or whatever, it’s your own account system, but you just
⏹️ ▶️ John wanna present a really nice UI to quickly look up their password in their keychain
⏹️ ▶️ John and fill it in and do authentication to do that lookup by doing face ID
⏹️ ▶️ John or touch ID or something similar. Signing with Apple also accelerates that and it is entirely
⏹️ ▶️ John up to the person writing the application to decide, am I just gonna look for
⏹️ ▶️ John if they have like a sign in with Apple, Apple ID login thing? Or am I also going to look to
⏹️ ▶️ John see if they have an email address login based on their email address on their contact card or whatever they enter whatever like
⏹️ ▶️ John am I going to do both and prioritize one over the other the app developer hasn’t entirely has control
⏹️ ▶️ John over that. And the question I had a WC, which I never really got an official answer to it, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John that whole requirement that hey, if you offer a sign in with Facebook or sign in with Google, you have to offer sign in with Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ John Could you fulfill that requirement by saying, yeah, we offer sign in with Apple. It’s just a really convenient
⏹️ ▶️ John way for us to get your password out of the keychain. And it’s just our account system.
⏹️ ▶️ John Et voila, we were shut. This is the same button. It’s like a UI, they’ll pull up for you sign in with Apple. So look, it’s signing
⏹️ ▶️ John with Apple. We’ve done it. The best and the best unofficial answer I could get was
⏹️ ▶️ John that probably won’t fly with the App Store. And they’ll say, when we say sign in with Apple, we mean the thing where you can use
⏹️ ▶️ John your Apple ID to sign in, not the thing where we use face ID to authenticate you to look up a password for
⏹️ ▶️ John some email address based account in your keychain? I still don’t know the answer to that question. But I think we’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John find out rapidly because I bet a lot of people will try to skirt the requirement by doing that.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I think they’re gonna get slapped down.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, one more thing, you know, when it when it comes to people, please, please don’t beg your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco favorite app developers to have everything on day one. One thing that really is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a large degree of friction to adopting the new things we got this year. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s two big ones to know about. Number one is if you try to maintain support for older OS’s,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like if you don’t just require iOS 13 immediately, which most apps don’t,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then it’s hard to adopt a lot of this new stuff. Secondly, if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want to write a Catalyst app this summer, or if you want to write anything using SwiftUI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s any good, you have to do it on Catalina, which Which means you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to run a Mac OS beta on your development machine. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether you do this the conservative way, like what I’m doing with a separate boot partition or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an external SSD, or whether you do it by actually just upgrading your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco main install to the Mac beta, which I don’t recommend. Either it’s a separate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco installation, which has its own degree of friction because you aren’t using your main installation for whatever reason.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you are using your main installation, you are dealing with beta bugs on your main development OS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all summer. Like iOS developers have had it easy all these ten years because we could
⏹️ ▶️ Marco run the beta on a hardware device but the device we were actually developing it on, we were writing the code
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on our nice, most of the time stable Macs and we didn’t have to run the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ Marco betas ever. This is the first time I’ve ever run a Mac beta and turns out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco betas are terrible and you don’t want to run a beta on your development machine. And so a totally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasonable path for developers to take this summer might be to defer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco their Catalyst apps and to defer much Swift UI work until
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Catalina is actually released and never actually run the Catalina beta on their Macs during the summer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In which case, their Catalyst Mac apps won’t be ready on day one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or they’ll be terrible, but they probably won’t be ready on day one. And so everyone out there,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of you wonderful users who would expect and beg for a Catalyst
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app on day one from all your favorite iOS developers, please give your developers some slack and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be patient because there’s lots of reasons from the sheer complexity
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it all to not wanting to run a beta Mac OS to develop on, which is a very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco different prospect than running beta iOSs, lots of reasons like that why your favorite apps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco might not have their Catalyst versions out on day one this fall, and it might be more like a next spring, next
⏹️ ▶️ Marco summer kind of thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. One small bit of real-time follow-up. I am one of those people that does
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the pre-family sharing approach for sharing apps. And it is, Erin and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do not share Apple IDs, we simply share store accounts, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my store account is my Apple ID, but I am not signed into her phone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as an Apple ID, I’m only signed into her phone as an iTunes store account, if that makes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey any sense at all. It’s a small difference.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And that is not as bad. It’s not great, but that is not as bad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as literally sharing the same Apple ID.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which I know my parents did for a while, and I finally convinced them not to do it anymore because they had constant
⏹️ ▶️ Casey problems. And I know there are still people that do it, to your point, but I think most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of what you’re thinking about, or the more common use is what Aaron and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are still doing because I’m too lazy to move to family sharing, which is same store account,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey different Apple IDs.
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#askatp: Mouse pads
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s move on to Ask ATP. I think these will be quick. Let’s see what happens. Andy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Byer Bowden writes, hey, what are your opinions on mousepads? Thrilling question, I know. I personally don’t understand the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey appeal. Mousepads are all the rage in the gaming PC world, but I’ve never seen the need. mouse will function perfectly on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey any halfway decent desk surface. Well, for me, I use a glass top desk.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey In fact, the desk is glass. And so I like it. I know most people find
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that to be insane. Hey, you know what? I like it. It works for me. But because of that, I definitely need a mouse
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pad. I have the most boring, basic black mouse pad that I think I got from Amazon like five years
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ago. And that’s it for me. John, what do you use in terms of mouse pads?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s interesting that you mentioned a glass top desk because for whatever reason back in 1984
⏹️ ▶️ John when no one knew what the hell to do with the mouse and we got our first Macintosh, my grandfather and my uncle also
⏹️ ▶️ John got one at the same time. The received wisdom, presumably the only person that had any connection I guess
⏹️ ▶️ John was my grandfather. My grandfather went to Mac user group meetings, mug meetings, and the received wisdom
⏹️ ▶️ John was that the best surface for mousing on was glass. Remember these are mice with
⏹️ ▶️ John mouse balls. It was like a weighted rubber coated ball inside a thing that had two little rollers that touched
⏹️ ▶️ John it one for x-axis one for y-axis and then it would the ball would poke out of the thing and the idea was the glass
⏹️ ▶️ John was the best surface. I’m not sure why that is like I guess maybe a compromise
⏹️ ▶️ John between how smoothly you can slide the mouse over the surface versus how much
⏹️ ▶️ John grip the ball has because it was you know it was very sort of matte finish rubber and matte finish rubber does get a pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John good grip on glass right but then it’s also smooth enough that there’s not a lot of of friction when you’re moving
⏹️ ▶️ John the mouse. And I feel like that is why
⏹️ ▶️ John mouse pads are still a thing. Because people have different tastes about what should the balance
⏹️ ▶️ John be between how hard it is to slide and sort of like the
⏹️ ▶️ John feel of it. Like is it rough, is it smooth, is it grippy, is it not? Those are kind of two independent
⏹️ ▶️ John things. These days obviously we don’t have balls in the mice anymore, it’s all optical magic.
⏹️ ▶️ John The only real consideration is you have to have a service it works with an optical mouse. If you try to use your mouse on a mirror surface,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not gonna have a good time. There’s lots of other services that are better or worse for
⏹️ ▶️ John using an optical mouse on, but in general, it’s all about feel.
⏹️ ▶️ John I personally do use a mouse pad because I don’t like the feel of
⏹️ ▶️ John an optical mouse on a bare desk surface. It just feels weird
⏹️ ▶️ John to me. I used my mouse on my first series of Macintoshes on glass that felt
⏹️ ▶️ John fine but at some point I transitioned still in the ball era I think I transitioned maybe around
⏹️ ▶️ John the SE30 to being on sort of a fabric covered mouse pad my current preference
⏹️ ▶️ John is one of those rubber backed fabric covered mouse pads that’s very very thin
⏹️ ▶️ John just because like they used to be really thick for who knows what a reason I guess they were squishy or whatever but a very thin
⏹️ ▶️ John very large mouse pad Amazon sells when I recently bought a new one because the kids destroyed
⏹️ ▶️ John the ones on the 5k iMac very large Amazon John Basic’s black fabric
⏹️ ▶️ John covered, rubber backed, very thin mouse pad. That is my preference. That’s what I use at home, at work,
⏹️ ▶️ John everywhere I possibly can. Because I just like the balance of friction
⏹️ ▶️ John and the feel of it versus doing it on metal or wood or glass or anything else.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco? So I agree with much of what you both have said. You know, what John said,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for optical mice, which is all mice these days, to work, they need to see some kind of texture.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, you know, a glass desk, it doesn’t work because there is basically, you know, not enough visible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco texture at the scale they’re working at to see it. And so any good mousing surface has to just have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of texture to it. And it can be very fine, but it can’t be glass. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s why, you know, some surfaces you just need that. And you know, a lot of times you can’t, you know, you can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco change your desk that easily, but you can easily put a, you know, a piece of paper under your mouse or something. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m a fan of mousepads, also for the feel, but for a few other reasons. So the one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have used for a long time, I used to use like gamer mousepads. Oh
⏹️ ▶️ Marco man, I forget what it was called. There was some kind of like big, hard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco plastic black mousepad. Glide, something glide? No, it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco done I think by like the hard OCP people back in the early 2000s. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was like, there was this giant, like it was this dense piece of plastic with a curved front, I don’t know, whatever it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was called, I forget. I also have used the Funk surfaces, the F-U-N-C surfaces, those are fine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too. But the one I’ve used for probably about 10 years now is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the CS Hyde Company makes one called C4 Engine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I use the medium size with the rubber backing on it. and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they make is a series of Teflon mouse pads. These are like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco real, actual Teflon. They also sell like Teflon tape and Teflon feet that you can stick on the bottom
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of your mouse. And so the idea here is to have as little friction as possible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when moving the mouse, so it moves really easily. And in practice, this doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually last as smoothly as you want for very long, because it wears down and, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain spots get, you know, a little bit less smooth. But this brings me to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my next point about what makes mouse pads great, which is that from the days of the rubber
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ball to the present and to the foreseeable future, crap gets under
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your mouse. Because we are humans and we live in worlds and crap gets under your mouse.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you have like, like the rubber ball, you’d have like those big long strips that you could pull off
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like all the crap that it picked up on each wheel, right? You’d try to like pull it all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off in one big strip. So there was that era and now like crap just gunks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up the bottom feet of your mouse. And so it is nice to, after a few years,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be able to just replace that surface with something brand new. If you are just mousing directly on your desk,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco depending on the texture of the desk and the material, it may get permanently gunked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up in like the spot that you put your mouse. And so you don’t really have that option. Whereas
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a mouse pad, you can always just replace it. So in that way, it’s also really nice. And then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco finally, the reason I like mousepads, is because they reserve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the space on your desk where the mouse goes. Like, if you have a cluttered
⏹️ ▶️ Marco desk, like the mousepad is like staking a claim on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this square over here. Clutter should not intrude. And granted,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re really messy, clutter can go on top of the mousepad, but like, I feel like that becomes, it at least
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like is staking a claim. It’s making a point like you shouldn’t put anything else in this square right here.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is where I go, this is mousing area. If you don’t have anything to define that area,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is so easy for stuff to invade it. And then as you’re mousing around, you crash into it. And that’s, I never
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want that. That’s always a terrible feeling. So. I always
⏹️ ▶️ John associate that with PC users who first got their mice. I would, first of all, your mouse shouldn’t be
⏹️ ▶️ John on your desk and neither should your keyboard because that’s too high unless you have your chair cranked up super high, but it should be on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a tray. But anyway. Nope, you should put your entire desk that low and get a monitor stand.
⏹️ ▶️ John Either one, you know
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco what I mean? Most
⏹️ ▶️ John people don’t have an adjustable desk in that way and desks are too high for normal chair heights. But
⏹️ ▶️ John they would get like the Microsoft White PS2 mouse, like their first mouse for their PC,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? And they would have no place for it because they would have the keyboard, the
⏹️ ▶️ John big horizontal desktop computer and the CRT on top of it. And it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John where do I put this mouse? And so they would just like put it down next to their keyboard, but
⏹️ ▶️ John there was no place for it. like their junk was all over there, and they would have the mouse, and there would be like
⏹️ ▶️ John a centimeter of space to move it on three sides, or maybe a centimeter on two sides. And it would just, they
⏹️ ▶️ John would just, and it wouldn’t even be straight, it would be like at a weird angle, and the cord would be all tangled up,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they would mouse by like banging the mouse within that one or two centimeters of play, and like picking it
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it. Yeah, you have
⏹️ ▶️ John to do like multiple passes to go across the screen. Yeah, just to go across the screen, constant banging, and like, and it
⏹️ ▶️ John would slowly skew, and they’d shove their drink in front of it, and then they’d reach around their drink to try to get it Casey style
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey oh, come on, man.
⏹️ ▶️ John They just never understood that like, that’s not how it’s supposed to work.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s supposed to be this big area where you can make these movements with your hand and it corresponds to the screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John They were just treated as like a weird mutant joystick where you’re driving the cursor
⏹️ ▶️ John around by increments by moving it in this little cage. It was like a veal that, you know, don’t have space to like turn
⏹️ ▶️ John around. It was terrible. Wow. Yeah, those PC users, they
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know what to do with mice.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Those people, they would also, usually they would have, like usually they would have added the PC
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a desk that was just like a regular paper desk before that, and so there wouldn’t really be a spot for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, and so they would have their 14 inch CRT monitor like off to the side.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so the way they would use their computer all day long, somehow their necks didn’t fall apart,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well maybe they did, would be they would be like turned at a 45 degree angle,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The keyboard would be in front of them, sort of, maybe. And then the CRT would be off diagonally to the side
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because there was nowhere else to put it on their
⏹️ ▶️ John desk. You know where you still see this today is in point of sale things. If there is an old PC in point of
⏹️ ▶️ John sale, there’s never room for the mouse in point of sale. If you’ve ever watched someone use the mouse on their point of sale computer, it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John wedged under the monitor and they reach around the back of the monitor and do that same sort of one centimeter little shuffle.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s ergonomic nightmare and it’s very sad and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco evil. Yeah, those systems have the most apt accidental acronym ever.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Do you guys have currently or can you recall
⏹️ ▶️ John in the past a mouse pad with something on it? A picture, a design,
⏹️ ▶️ John a brand like Marco’s thing right now is just the blend you sent us links to in the website. It was just like
⏹️ ▶️ John brown or beige but solid color. None of you have anything on your mouse pads right now?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, no. I’m sure I did. I can’t recall any specifics and obviously I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have no shame and I’d be happy to admit to some of these specifics, but I genuinely can’t recall any. But I’m But I am
⏹️ ▶️ Casey confident that in the past I definitely did
⏹️ ▶️ John that. But you don’t now?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, no. It’s just a black basic mouse pad that probably cost me five bucks on
⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon. So I like something to be on my mouse pad, but I don’t want something dumb on my mouse
⏹️ ▶️ John pad. Like I’m kind of annoyed that I think the Amazon basics one has like an Amazon thing or something on it. You know, it’s black
⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise, but there’s like a little logo or whatever. But I want there to be something interesting on it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Back when I was going to the MIT swap regularly, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John an open air thing that MIT has on like the something Sunday of every month during the summer-ish
⏹️ ▶️ John time where people sell old computer stuff, is someone was selling like a stack,
⏹️ ▶️ John like an inch and a half high stack of mouse pads and they were Sun mouse pads and they were exactly
⏹️ ▶️ John the kind that I want, the really thin fabric covered kind that were just like two-tone, like
⏹️ ▶️ John blue and silver with with the big Sun logo sideways on them. I don’t know if you remember what the Sun logo
⏹️ ▶️ John looks like. And I thought that was super cool because I loved Sun computers when I was at school and it was obscure
⏹️ ▶️ John and Unix-y and the pattern was nice. And I’ve been working my way through that stack.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m using one of them right now. Oh my gosh. My kids destroyed one of those. I replaced
⏹️ ▶️ John it with an Amazon Basics because I don’t wanna use any more of the good Sun mouse pads, but they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John great. At work, I use a mouse pad that my wife got from her office, which
⏹️ ▶️ John has the name of her work on it. And you know, it’s just, you know, I don’t have much personalized on my desk, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I do have a picture of my family and I do have a mouse pad from my wife’s work. But
⏹️ ▶️ John failing that, I would go with solid color. but I do like a mouse pad with a little pizzazz.
#askatp: 2014 Air today
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, John Schwen writes, my wife’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey early 2014 MacBook Air is not long for this world. Retina and 16 gigs of RAM would be nice, but the loss of MagSafe, not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so much. I see that you can still buy the old model, quote unquote, brand new. The last one was perfect
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for five plus years. Is it dumb to buy a new old one? To my eyes, I do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey miss MagSafe, but I don’t miss it enough to buy a new old MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Air. I cannot recommend that and I think that would be a really preposterous idea. Marco disagree
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I don’t know that I can disagree with you. I mean they do still sell it But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean the new ones are only like $200 more I mean, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, I love the old style of laptops and you know, I don’t love the new style of laptops
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I have to admit like the old style is getting pretty old now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And so I, and also like a non-retina screen, that’s really bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, maybe if you don’t care, if that’s what you’re used to, that’s one thing. Lots and lots of people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco care. Yeah, but I really do care about retina. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I couldn’t abide it on that alone. But even the idea of buying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 2015 era MacBook Pros, which you know I love, even buying those now, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in 2016, that was a good idea. In 2017, that was still pretty much a good idea.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In 2018, it starts getting, mm, it’s awfully old. Like, you’re putting a lot of money into something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is four years old. In 2019, it’s starting to get highly questionable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to invest new money into one of these such old
⏹️ ▶️ Marco machines. Because as you go forward, like, you know, it’s not likely to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have as long of a service life as one of the newer models, or at least have a long of a relevance life.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because these things are pretty far behind the current tech in certain ways.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Certain critical performance ways, support of certain new port types and new speeds
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of things and everything. So support for certain external monitor sizes and everything. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna be fighting an uphill battle the longer you hold onto something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s of one of these older generations. And if you already have it, that’s one thing. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re buying new, if you’re spending money on something new, I feel like these are getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just too old to have that be a good option.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think the only variable here is price. It’s not a smart thing to buy now. It is old, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John days are mostly past. But if you can get one really cheap, they were great computers, and if you get it cheap, you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John have the expectation that you’re gonna be using this for five years, so it’s all about the price. The prices that they’re being sold new
⏹️ ▶️ John for, you shouldn’t pay that much. But if you see a refurbished one or a used one good
⏹️ ▶️ John condition that you can get for a really good price. I still think they’re good laptops. Just expect to use it for like a year
⏹️ ▶️ John and a half until you know what you’re waiting for is the new Apple laptops with the non
⏹️ ▶️ John crappy keyboard, right? And so if you can’t actually hold out for that, buying a very
⏹️ ▶️ John inexpensive, uh, you know, previous gen Macbook air to hold you over
⏹️ ▶️ John as long as you get a good deal, I think that’s viable, but don’t pay like close to new computer prices for it because it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John just too old and slow at this point.
WWDC lunch update
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We owe our listeners a tremendous apology because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we did not do our jobs. This is what, the second or third episode post-WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where we have not talked about the lunches. And we actually, for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the first time in years, we actually, the three of us, shared a WWDC lunch this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And all three of us had lunch together inside the venue. And Tim Schmitz was the one I happened
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to see who asked this question. There were many others that came before him, but this was the one I happened
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to notice when I was sitting down to, uh, to get ask ATP squared away for this week. So Tim Schmitz asks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey any WWDC lunch updates this year. I, I actually don’t think I have any, it was basically
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the exact same as last year. And, and as usual, I’ve found that I’m, I’m accidentally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey avoiding these lunches because it ends up that I’ll try to meet somebody for lunch. So for example, on Monday,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I ran over and met Aaron for lunch at a sofa Market, which is this new to me,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I think it’s only a year or two old, really cool food court that’s just a few blocks away from the convention
⏹️ ▶️ Casey center. I also went with my friend Jelly, who does the wonderful app GifWrapped,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to, oh shoot, I can’t remember the name of it now. Oh, San Pedro Square, I think is it? I think that was the name
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of it, which was another food court that was kind of nearby. And so I genuinely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wasn’t actively avoiding the lunches because I think they’re fine. But I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only had one or maybe two of them. So I don’t really have that much to say.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, this was your first year. This is your triumphant return to the WWDC lunch. Uh, any,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey any notes or thoughts on yours?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought they were fine. You know, not great, which is, you know, understandable. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re never great. Uh, you don’t need them to be great. You need them to be fine. And I think they were, they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally satisfied that they were, they are They are exactly what they’ve always been,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a way. There’s always, there’s nitpicks you can pick
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with everything, every single aspect of every single meal. There’s something about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it that’s a little bit off. But it was fine. There were none that I took a bite and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m like, oh, I can’t even eat this. Like, no, they were fine. I ate them, they served their purpose, they were quick and easy and
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, Casey, you could have had a second lunch with all three of us, but you ditched us for whoever it was that you
⏹️ ▶️ John were going to see. Marco and I had a second lunch together. Anyway, so I had lunch
⏹️ ▶️ John every day of WWDC as I usually do. It was similar to last year,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I feel like there, I think I said the same thing last year. I feel like this, whatever this catering company isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John really even trying as hard. Like, welcome to San Jose. Yeah, pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John much every lunch, or at least a lot of them, didn’t even fill all the little cubbies. Like you usually
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey get like three or four cubbies.
⏹️ ▶️ John You got the big cubby where whatever the main thing is, you got two or three small
⏹️ ▶️ John cubbies. One usually has like the side dish and one the little dessert-y thing, and maybe there’s a third that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that one. Actually, that is true, and this is something I noticed too. There were pretty much no side dishes. Like they had the dessert,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they had the main pile of
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. And that’s it. They didn’t even try to do anything else. They didn’t try to make some unidentifiable weird
⏹️ ▶️ John rice concoction or vegetable medley thing or whatever, which
⏹️ ▶️ John shows a lack of effort, but on the other hand, that is always the most challenging thing. We’ve talked about that before,
⏹️ ▶️ John to even figure out what it is. And it also has the highest chance of spoiling the other stuff, because
⏹️ ▶️ John it could be a wet thing that flops over into the main bin and makes the bread on the sandwich
⏹️ ▶️ John wet or whatever. And also by not trying, they didn’t try to do anything exotic for the main dishes,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? So they basically did more or less what I had suggested a couple of years ago.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like the very first lunch on the very first day was a sandwich and a chocolate chip cookie, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John hard to screw up if you don’t do anything weird. They wisely didn’t put lots of
⏹️ ▶️ John wet condiments on the sandwich. They were like, you get them on the side in little packets. And so I think the best
⏹️ ▶️ John lunch I had at WWDC was the first one, which was a boring sandwich, which was mediocre or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John and a industrial chocolate chip cookie. And that was
⏹️ ▶️ John perfectly fine. The lunches all went downhill from there. Every subsequent day was
⏹️ ▶️ John slightly worse, but they never reached the really low levels. I only had one little bit of soggy bread
⏹️ ▶️ John and all of them were like, okay. So I was disappointed by the lack of ambition, but I was happy about
⏹️ ▶️ John the sort of going for the, you know, the crowd pleasing fat part of the curve. Don’t try to do
⏹️ ▶️ John anything fancy. Just do a sandwich and a cookie in a reasonable way. So I think it was a pretty good year for lunches,
⏹️ ▶️ John even if it was not particularly spectacular. low degree of difficulty, mediocre execution.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I had forgotten and CMF reminded me in the chat, what was the Mango Tango situation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this year? They were there. It wasn’t one of the dark years of which there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey were two or three, I think, where they switched to some other like silly drink. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I only had like one bottle, which I believe I had in line with John
⏹️ ▶️ Casey waiting to go see the Mac Pro actually. But yeah, mango tango is some sort of a weird
⏹️ ▶️ Casey drink that I just think is delicious. And it’s like three or $4 a bottle, generally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking. It’s hilariously expensive, but you get it quote unquote for free
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with your $1,600 ticket from time to time. And so I love to have them even though they’re like 300 calories per bottle.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think I only had one, maybe two, which was really, really sad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But that is a highlight of my WWDC trip every year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey man I love me some mango tango. Leave me alone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our sponsors this week. Molecule, Squarespace, ExpressVPN, and Mango
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tango. We’ll see you next week.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey begin Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey
⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t let him Cause it was accidental,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental And you can find the show notes
⏹️ ▶️ John at atp.fm And if you’re into Twitter,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to
⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, tech podcasts so long
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I should get on the horn with Odwalla.
⏹️ ▶️ John I got a picture of you holding up your mango tango. Was that really the only one you had? It might be, yeah. Isn’t that sad?
⏹️ ▶️ John I thought it was more plentiful this year. I saw it around a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, and I was actually in the conference more this year than I had been for a while because a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of times I had every intention of going in and then I would need to meet up with, let’s say, Jelly, but you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, I would need to meet up with somebody or want to meet up with somebody, whatever, and then I would end up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey missing out on stuff. But I was inside the conference much more frequently than the last couple of years, and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey still only got a couple of them at most.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I forgot to mention the other thing that they had more of. So we mentioned that they just had a lunch and a
⏹️ ▶️ John little dessert, but they had side dish thingies separate from the boxes. Like they would
⏹️ ▶️ John just have big bowls filled with chips and nuts
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and stuff like
⏹️ ▶️ John that. That’s happened before. Right. They always have the bowls of bananas and snacks, but with the meal. They never used to do
⏹️ ▶️ John this in San Francisco. With the actual box lunch right next to it, you were expected to
⏹️ ▶️ John furnish your own side dish and you had choices. It wasn’t just one thing. You had like three kinds of chips or
⏹️ ▶️ John a bag of nuts or something else along with the lunch, not just as the snack before and after it. So
⏹️ ▶️ John that was convenient and I snagged a couple of bags. In fact, I found a new planters
⏹️ ▶️ John mix thing that I liked. I think I took a picture of it. It’s like their tropical nut mix or something. It’s got like
⏹️ ▶️ John yogurt covered raisins and like one half of a macadamia and a bunch of peanuts and like some dried
⏹️ ▶️ John fruit, like little dried pineapple bits. And I thought it was a nice, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John two ounce size little bag of nut and dried fruit, like a pleasing combination
⏹️ ▶️ John that I didn’t feel like there was lots of some nut that I didn’t like. And, you know, I tend to like things with dried fruit in it. So I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John excited about that discovery. I look for them online and I could find them at Amazon, but only if I bought 72 of them
⏹️ ▶️ John for a dollar each. So $72, I felt like that would probably be too much of those
⏹️ ▶️ John two ounce nutbags for me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow. I should also point out that they at one point had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey full-on like KitKat bars and other things sitting outside in that like front courtyard-y
⏹️ ▶️ John area. I missed that entire- sitting out in the courtyard, they’re probably all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey melted. Exactly. That was the thing was I was like running out the door, so to speak,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey although at this point I had already left the doors. But anyways, I was running out to go meet up with somebody
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I saw this like pile of KitKats and I saw it sitting directly in the sunlight and I thought, yeah, I’ll pass on
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, it’s going to become one big KitKat.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It actually doesn’t sound terrible. I do love me a KitKat, but that’s right. Do we need an after show? Are we good?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What do we think? I’m telling you, this development is killing me. Which one?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, what are you actively working on right now? The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch app? No, I haven’t even gotten there yet. Like I’ve been doing server stuff to prepare for some other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff and fix some other stuff and then I have to I mean part of it honestly is it’s kind of nice
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I’m I’m avoiding beta 1 mostly but beta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 2 is is terrible and I’m just I’m faced with this massive amount of stuff to do for the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco summer so and I still haven’t really done it yet I can I’m diving in a little bit here and there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I’m I was like one of the things I have to do by the way I have to like rewrite my audio engine partly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they they have I’ve officially deprecated the AU Graph API that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve been using to render audio. And they kind of said that unofficially like two years ago,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I knew this was gonna happen. I really have to move to AV Audio Engine for lots of reasons because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the audio graph stuff is, officially it still works,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s not working very well anymore on the newest betas. And I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know if they’re going to fix that because it’s officially deprecated. And I need to like rewrite an audio
⏹️ ▶️ Marco engine that will work on the watch anyway. And the AV audio engine allegedly will.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I have to like rewrite the audio engine for that. I’m also working on a multi-column view
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because using my two column view on a Mac feels even worse than it feels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on an iPad. And that’s surprisingly non-trivial because of like the navigation structure.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, you have to be able to like have like the two columns that go there with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, the root level nav and then the second level being either the podcast or playlist you’ve selected. You
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also have to figure out what to do with those two navigation bars. Do you display them side by side? That kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of looks weird. They also both have search bars, which search different things.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What do you do with those? Like there’s all sorts of UI challenges there. Then you have to have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the logic in the app to be able to, like if you resize the app down, so it fits
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one or zero columns, you have to then like tear those view controllers out of those navigation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco book controllers and stick them in either one navigation controller with them stacked, or stick them all with one with the now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco playing screen. It’s like, it’s this whole thing that is surprisingly complex and just requires
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a lot of just like moving code around, refactoring code to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco work in this new structure of how it needs it and everything. And not to mention the cosmetic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco issues of like how do you lay this out in a way that doesn’t look ridiculous when you have all these common elements between them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So just having a three column view, that’s gonna be like two weeks of work right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there, probably, out of the like 10 weeks I have in the summer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Basically, like there’s not, like there’s so much stuff that just accumulates like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fun. Yeah, so first I need a multi-column view, that way my Mac app, which I think is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if I can rank the importance of what I have to do for this fall, number
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one is the Mac app, because that is the thing that will get me the most new ground covered,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s the thing that people want the most. Actually, no, sorry. Priority number one is update for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS 13. So anything that is broken on iOS 13, I have to fix.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anything that is weird or deprecated, that if I don’t do it right in iOS 13, like using old
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 3D Touch APIs, not using the new menu system, having any problems with the new card-based
⏹️ ▶️ Marco presentation controller style, I have to fix iOS 13 stuff first, which I haven’t done. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I should really be doing that now. Then, after that’s fixed, then I have to, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think, do the Mac app. But that requires this three-column thing first, and probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new audio engine, because I’m having a lot of bugs with the old one running on the Mac. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then after that, I think the next step after that is tackle the independent watch app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The only reason that’s not higher on the list is that I already have an independent-ish
⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch app, kind of works. So like it’s, it’s less important. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have like those three major projects to do this summer. Not to mention, by the way, I also need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do some significant server migrations, which I’m also doing this week. So I have those three things to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do. Uh, and I’m like a quarter of the way through the first thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s already been like two weeks and it’s like, Oh, this is, this is stressful.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is not good. And all of these things are going to take longer than I think they will, I’m sure.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just, I don’t mean this in a mean way, but I do find there to be a little
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit of humor in the thought that I just had, which is that you might need to do a great vacation this summer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by staying at home while your family is at the beach.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Nope, that’s not gonna happen.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I know, which would be terrible for you, but I do think it would be funny.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would send them home and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would stay. Oh, okay, I see how it is. The king needs his space. Be gone,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey child and wife. you must be gone. Let me know how that works