328: The Pixel Stump30 May 2019
WWDC leaks and predictions, final Mac Pro guesses, and the reality of keeping the same computer for ten years.
- macOS 10.15's System Partition
- New iPod touch
- Guilherme Rambo's Screenshot Leaks
- Apple Pro Display
- Pontificating about the Mac Pro
- ...oh yeah and some other WWDC stuff.
- Post-show: What's owning a 10-year computer really like?
- ExpressVPN: Protect your online privacy. Get 3 extra months free with a 12-month plan.
- Jamf Now: Set up and protect your Apple devices at work, from anywhere. First 3 devices are free.
- Mobelux: We design, build, and brand award‑winning mobile apps and modern web platforms.
- ASCII-art code comments
- 2019 butterfly teardown
- Watch independence?
- Shoemaker interview
- Read-only system partition
- Sponsor: Mobelux
- New iPod Touch?!
- Leaked screenshots 🖼️
- Sponsor: Jamf Now
- Pro Display rumors
- Final Mac Pro predictions
- Sponsor: ExpressVPN
- What won’t be mentioned?
- Presenting Marzipan
- Ending theme
- 10-year computers
ASCII-art code comments
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we doing an after show? Should we talk about?
⏹️ ▶️ John We gotta talk about Margo’s 10-year computer.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that, oh, okay. I didn’t know if that was the Mac Pro thing in disguise. You’re
⏹️ ▶️ John getting sleepy, Casey.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am fricking dying, but I’m trying to put on the big boy pants.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco You can do it! Let’s rock it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We can get through this together. Let’s do it. I do not know where this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey piece of follow-up came from, but I am in love with this piece of follow-up. So, we discussed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey last week, I forget what the context was, but we were discussing ASCII art and code comments. This is when you’re making,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, like pictures as best you can out of text with pipes and hyphens and plus
⏹️ ▶️ Casey signs and things of that nature. And we were talking about it for some reason or another. I don’t remember why. But someone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has sent us, and maybe John, you can fill me in where this is from, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a link called explaining code using ASCII art. And oh, mama,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is delightful. This made me so incredibly happy. John, tell us what’s going on here.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this was an AskATP question asking us to weigh in on the value
⏹️ ▶️ John of comments. That led us to the
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey AskATP thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John I also don’t remember where this came from. Sorry, I just grabbed the link but didn’t grab whoever sent it to us. But yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an entire blog and it’s filled with awesome diagrams showing exactly what I was talking about.
⏹️ ▶️ John Things that are easier to explain visually than in words,
⏹️ ▶️ John whether they be data structures or memory layout with a bunch of different blocks. even try to do like an
⏹️ ▶️ John entity relationship diagram that one’s maybe a little bit less successful but uh but yeah i love
⏹️ ▶️ John this type of thing and i think we also got some uh feedback from uh sort of the uh
⏹️ ▶️ John horror stories of not understanding how the comment terminators uh work
⏹️ ▶️ John in your language and accidentally throwing in like a you know an asterisk
⏹️ ▶️ John and then a forward slash
⏹️ ▶️ John just ended the comment when really you thought you were just drawing ascii art and various techniques to defend
⏹️ ▶️ John against that. Anyway, we’ll put the link in the show notes. If you had no idea what we’re talking about, check the site out. And if you’re a programmer,
⏹️ ▶️ John well, check out this site and feel bad about your own comments. -. -. -. -.
2019 butterfly teardown
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Where in the timeline was the MacBook Pro refresh? Was that before we recorded last? Is that right? That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey after we talked about it. Okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re right. Okay, right. So we’ve talked about the refresh. So we didn’t know the details about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what the material differences were. We didn’t know if that meant literally materials. We didn’t know if that was a measure
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the difference. So iFixit has done what they do best and they’ve torn this thing apart. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell me, tell me one of you, maybe Marco, since you love these keyboards so much, tell me what the differences are here.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The main thing so far is that they did clearly change two of the materials.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of them is part of the main plastic dome that flexes for each key press.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then also the big metal cap that actually flexes, again, to make the contact
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for each key press. That seems to be revised as well. They weren’t able to tell quite in what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way that was revised, but it was visually, obviously, different from before. So what’s interesting about this is that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ve seen as the keyboard drama has played out, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the protections they’ve put in place so far seem to be about keeping dust out, and keeping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco particles out, because they can jam the actual, the big plastic butterfly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wings that act as the hinge to the switch. But what we keep
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seeing though, and I think the reason why the past fixes haven’t entirely worked, is because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the keys that are used the most are the ones that tend to fail. You have like the vowel keys, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco E, you have the space bar, like those are the ones that tend to fail much more frequently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than other ones. And so if you have a random selection of keys that fail, that would lend more credence towards the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dust theory. But because the keys that keep getting used the most tend to be the ones that fail
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the most, it seems like it might be like a wearing out of something, like a physical, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a part is wearing or deforming or bending or something,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco somehow wearing out from just repeated use. So I’m guessing these material changes were made
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to actually address that. It’s still too early to know whether
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will actually work or not. I do know that it does feel different.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was able to feel one in the store the other day. Before you bought it. I mean, Stephen Hackett already bought one.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, oh yeah. I like how you’re blaming this on Stephen. Did you already buy one?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I was on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way to run some errands at a place that includes an Apple Store, and when he
⏹️ ▶️ Marco told me, it feels different. So naturally, I like walked across the street immediately to go to the Apple Store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey feels. The white cars just happen to you. I see how it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco is. Yeah, exactly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly. So I did type on one. Unfortunately, because they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco still very new, the store still had some of the old models literally right next to it on the table. So I was able to do a side-by-side
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comparison with the 2018 keyboard and the 2019 keyboard. and they definitely do feel different.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The 2019 feels a little bit softer, a little bit squishier.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fortunately, I still have a lot of hope that this is the last of these butterfly keyboards
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we’re likely to see. And so I’m just keeping my eye on the future and ignoring all this crap.
⏹️ ▶️ John And when they mentioned it was a materials fix, there was that slight confusion about the exact meaning of the word material,
⏹️ ▶️ John but either meaning that you would have taken from their statement, it was clear that they hadn’t actually
⏹️ ▶️ John redesigned the keyboard that the essential mechanism was the same and although there are surely parts
⏹️ ▶️ John of the functioning of that mechanism that can fail due to Materials getting old or tired or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John I Still feel like there’s definitely part of that mechanism that fails
⏹️ ▶️ John due to the inherent design of the mechanism itself because of the way the butterfly hinge is Arranged
⏹️ ▶️ John because of the low clearances if you get a big enough crumb in there and you depress the key the little
⏹️ ▶️ John crumb can wedge itself such that the mechanism can’t bring the key back up.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right? You end up with like a stuck key. And it’s not stuck because the dome has collapsed,
⏹️ ▶️ John although dome fatigue may be an issue, right? As we already talked about the frequency of the keys.
⏹️ ▶️ John But the debris going into a relatively new keyboard and getting wedged under the
⏹️ ▶️ John butterfly thing points to just a basic design flaw. That debris can go in there, it can get wedged in a particular
⏹️ ▶️ John place, It doesn’t have a good way to get out It’s why blowing air might fix something if the dome was fatigued
⏹️ ▶️ John blowing air on it is not going to help But if you have a little tiny crumb that’s wedged in this
⏹️ ▶️ John point 2-5 millimeter space between the upper part of the butterfly wing
⏹️ ▶️ John and the key and it’s causing it not to be able to To bounce back up like you can’t fix that by changing
⏹️ ▶️ John materials, right? You’d have to change parts You’d have to make something thinner. You’d have to change the mechanism and they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John just just continuing to not do that. So I’m glad they’re making some material changes. I hope
⏹️ ▶️ John they fix some kinds of issues, but I still feel like the fundamental
⏹️ ▶️ John design of the combination of both this keyboard and the frame that the keys poke through, like that whole combination
⏹️ ▶️ John of the keyboard unit, is no good.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that the opposite of the Viteci seal of approval? Yeah, it’s worse, I hate you. Ha ha! Ha
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ha ha ha! Oh my word.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, moving on. The App Store is coming to the Apple Watch, possibly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is from a friend of the show, Guillerme Rambeau. He was saying that it is possible
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that—and I think German reported on this as well—he was saying that it’s possible that there will be an App Store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the Apple Watch. And Guillerme specifically noted that keywords had been added
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to one of the watchOS labs, and those keywords were independence and independent.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m surprised we didn’t touch on that the last time we talked about this. You know, I threw out that, like, if
⏹️ ▶️ John you have a watch, an app store that was only usable on your watch, what could you sell? You could sell watch faces,
⏹️ ▶️ John and we all want that, but we’ll probably all be sad. But we didn’t even mention this, the idea that
⏹️ ▶️ John any kind of app store on the watch would have to be part of what I feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like is the inevitable, eventual independence of the watch. in the same way that
⏹️ ▶️ John both the iPod and the iPhone,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I think I got that right, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John the iPod and the iPhone were both tied to the Mac originally. You couldn’t really buy either one unless
⏹️ ▶️ John you had a Mac. And eventually, both became independent of the Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ John At the watch right now, if you buy it, you need to have an iPhone, otherwise it’s really no good to you, at least, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John to set it up initially. I suppose you could divorce it from the phone at some point. But anyway, the watch needs to go independent. And
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not just because, oh, it should be a standalone device and it shouldn’t be tethered or whatever. It’s the same reason that the iPod
⏹️ ▶️ John and the iPhone became independent, because then you can sell it to people who don’t have some other app
⏹️ ▶️ John expensive Apple product. And that’s important. I mean, from all accounts, as
⏹️ ▶️ John what we’re able to tell from Apple’s earnings and everything that the watch has actually been selling pretty well. I think underscore just posted
⏹️ ▶️ John a chart recently that his stats show that the series four watches soon to be the most popular
⏹️ ▶️ John watch, which means the newer watches are selling even better than the old ones. Everything’s looking up. But if you
⏹️ ▶️ John can’t sell the Apple Watch to anybody unless they have an iPhone, that’s very limiting. So the watch
⏹️ ▶️ John has to become independent. And if it does become independent, you need some way to get software onto the thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John One way would be to have the watch be able to download apps directly. Another way is some
⏹️ ▶️ John support on Android or a PC version of something. There’s all sorts of ways you can do this. But
⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that these keywords are added, I don’t know what that means. I’m not really good at spelunking this thing. I don’t have any
⏹️ ▶️ John track record of looking at keywords associated with things. But I am 100% willing to believe that
⏹️ ▶️ John if the Apple Watch has an app store on it, it will be part of the story about how the watch can now be
⏹️ ▶️ John sold to people without an iPhone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And a couple other caveats too. I mean, number one, like the titles of things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the WBDC schedule before the keynote are basically meaningless. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people always try to derive like any kind of predictions they can to them. And the reality
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, Apple’s very good at not telling more than they want to tell in those titles. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would not read too much into any of the titles that exist in the app now. And secondly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you also have to remember that sometimes there will be labs or sessions or web
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pages or whatever from Apple that tell you, not really news,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but are trying to convince you to do something the way they want you to do it. So they might intend
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for us to use the Apple Watch more independently. They might intend for us to develop more apps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have more independence in our apps, but that doesn’t necessarily imply by itself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they are going to actually be meaningfully changing things on that front
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for us on the watch or in the APIs or the kind of deep technical stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They might be, but this doesn’t indicate that either way.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, it’s just digging for crumbs. And to the credit of the people who dig
⏹️ ▶️ John these things, sometimes you can find interesting stuff like actual Apple marketing images at URLs that
⏹️ ▶️ John are guessable. And so it’s conceivable that stuff could leak out this way. I’m just saying like big picture wise, whether
⏹️ ▶️ John or not it happens this year, I think the watch going independent is as inevitable as the watch getting
⏹️ ▶️ John cellular, which I think that when the day the watch came out, I think we were all like this is going to have to
⏹️ ▶️ John be independent of the phone with a cell connection and they can’t do it yet because technology and it’s really hard, but eventually they
⏹️ ▶️ John will. And I think, I think I read something recently. Oh, it was from like a product designer for the Apple watch. Did you
⏹️ ▶️ John both read that story? No. It was like an ex-Apple industrial
⏹️ ▶️ John designer, I think, talking about her time working on the watch. And
⏹️ ▶️ John she was very candid, because she’s no longer at Apple, and saying how they had all these different challenges. And they wanted the watch from
⏹️ ▶️ John day one to be independent of the phone, but they couldn’t do it, because it’s really hard. And I think she
⏹️ ▶️ John described it as like, look, we have 70 problems to solve here. Let’s take one off the table
⏹️ ▶️ John and save it for later. Because they had all sorts of issues were just trying to get the radio to work. And where
⏹️ ▶️ John do you put the antenna when the whole thing is like metal and they had to like stick the antenna in the screen that like sticks out
⏹️ ▶️ John above the metal body. I’ll see if I can find the story for the show notes. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John making it have its own cell connection was deemed a bridge too
⏹️ ▶️ John far for version one. So they didn’t do that, but eventually they did. And in the same way, I feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s inevitable that the watch is gonna become independent, even if it doesn’t happen this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t say I’ve met or spoken to anyone that has said, you know, I’d love to have an Apple Watch even though
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have an Android phone. That just seems an odd combination, but why wouldn’t you try to do this? I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey agree that it is an inevitability. In speaking of things that have happened this week,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like news things that have happened this week. And also speaking of Mark Gurman…
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s apparently a Bloomberg podcast called Decrypted, which I was not previously aware of, but this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey week they had an interview with the former chief of AppReview,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whose name escapes me. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco don’t have it in front of me. Is that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Philip Shoemaker? Yeah, something like that. I listened to this. I don’t know if you guys did. I think you have to take
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything said here with a little bit of salt, because the information is old.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s typically unlike someone to talk about the inside, unless they have a little bit of an ax to grind. That
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being said, I thought it was fascinating, and it’s about 40 minutes, and I thought it was well worth
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my time. I thought it was really, really interesting hearing some of the stuff they talked about. I wish I had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey been able to take notes. I forget what I was doing at the time, but there were a handful of things that they said, and I was like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, interesting. I didn’t know that. And so, I do recommend it if you happen to have the time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and he actually gave a conference talk a few months back somewhere. There’s a video of it on YouTube somewhere if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you look for it. And that also kind of flew under the radar. Nobody realized, like, oh, that’s the guy who ran AppReview.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I will say again, to kind of extend your grain of salt a little bit further into one of those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big crystals of salt that you get in the expensive salt boxes, I would say, keep in mind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that he did leave Apple. I think I heard that it maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco might not have been his decision, and the timing of his departure correlated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly with the App Store I would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco take all of this with a large flake of very expensive salt.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. But it was good. I still think even with all of that copious amount of salt,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do think it is worth your time.
Read-only system partition
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, uh, John, tell me about Mac OS 1015, if you please. This
⏹️ ▶️ John is another rumor that’s been floating around that maybe is not only interesting to me, but I found it interesting, so I
⏹️ ▶️ John thought I would throw it out there because the source seems pretty solid on this. Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John OS 10.15, whatever the heck it’s going to be called, one of the features that is supposedly has
⏹️ ▶️ John whether optional or mandatory is a read only system partition. Interesting,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is interesting for a couple of reasons. Now, a couple of years back, they introduced system integrity
⏹️ ▶️ John protection, which is basically meant to prevent you from either accidentally or on purpose messing
⏹️ ▶️ John with the essential files that are part of the operating system. It’s malware protection. So even
⏹️ ▶️ John if you accidentally run some unknown executable or intentionally run it and don’t realize
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s infested with malware, it can’t modify some driver or kernel resource
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever in your operating system to add some sort of spyware to it. because even you
⏹️ ▶️ John as a user and even you as root can’t modify files that are part of the operating
⏹️ ▶️ John system, thanks to system integrity protection. But that relies on some code that Apple added
⏹️ ▶️ John for security and can have its own set of flaws or whatever. A step up from that would
⏹️ ▶️ John be to put the operating system on a separate partition, a separate volume, as far as the operating system
⏹️ ▶️ John is concerned, and to mount that volume read-only, which itself relies on protections
⏹️ ▶️ John inherent in the operating system that enforce the read-only nature of mounted volumes, and so on and so forth. But presumably, that code
⏹️ ▶️ John is simpler than system integrity protection, older and more reliable than system integrity
⏹️ ▶️ John protection, and just sort of more straightforward, right? Because if you mount a volume read-only,
⏹️ ▶️ John you would expect only to be able to read from it. And that is easier to secure than a weird
⏹️ ▶️ John system where we have this special case for certain files that are flagged in a particular
⏹️ ▶️ John way or on some list that they’re not allowed to modify even when you root or whatever. thanks to the magic
⏹️ ▶️ John of APFS, adding additional volumes to your existing volume is easier now
⏹️ ▶️ John because you don’t have to carve out a bunch of space and move stuff around like you used to have to in the old days. As we know,
⏹️ ▶️ John or should recall from the times when we discussed APFS, you can put multiple volumes on the same disk. You
⏹️ ▶️ John can put, if you have a one terabyte disk, you can put five one terabyte volumes
⏹️ ▶️ John on the disk, which doesn’t make any sense because you don’t have five terabytes of space. It’s that space sharing thing. And they all
⏹️ ▶️ John just compete for the available blocks. So it should be fairly straightforward for Apple to
⏹️ ▶️ John non-optionally, when upgrading to whatever this new operating system is called,
⏹️ ▶️ John make a new volume, and then put the new operating system on that volume
⏹️ ▶️ John and do it in such a way that you don’t have weird errors about repartitioning. We’ll see if they make it mandatory or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John but reportedly, this is a feature of the new OS, and I think it’s pretty neat. There
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the potential issues, though, that are brought up by like, what common
⏹️ ▶️ Marco third-party app uses is this going to mess with or prevent?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, like every time they tighten security of macOS in some way, it usually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco breaks things. And you know, like, and so there’s already lots of protections for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kernel extensions. There’s already lots of restrictions and everything. There’s various code signing restrictions. There’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now Apple events prevention. There’s, you know, system integrity protection. and like every time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they lock down macOS a little bit further, it tends to break things. And some of those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things can never be fixed, or the updated version of them has fewer capabilities
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the old one did, or is harder to use, or is cumbersome, or whatever else. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do like the idea of them making macOS more secure and continuing to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it less susceptible to malware and limit what malware can do. That’s all great, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am a little bit concerned What will this break?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, the main thing that I imagine it has broken and continues to break
⏹️ ▶️ John is all of Apple’s internal stuff, because especially when you’re trying to run diagnostics
⏹️ ▶️ John or test things or run the OS through automated tech, like the expectation that you can
⏹️ ▶️ John just write some temporary files to a particular location inside a particular extension bundle or stuff, like it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John convenient to do. The bundle structure lends itself to, if you need a place to put things
⏹️ ▶️ John for debugging or dumping a log or doing some diagnostics, all internal Apple stuff when they’re testing
⏹️ ▶️ John their own software. You can’t do that anymore if all of system library is read-only.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so they are the first people who have to come up with solutions to that. Same thing with any sort of applications.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you could look into like, what is it? System library core services. There’s a bunch of basically just plain old applications
⏹️ ▶️ John buried in quote unquote, the operating system or the system folder as we knew it back in the day.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like the screen sharing app is down there. There’s all sorts of little helper applications that are down there, just plain old application
⏹️ ▶️ John bundles. And as most people know, who have been developing for Mac OS X for a
⏹️ ▶️ John long time, when it was called Mac OS X, you used to be able to write stuff to application
⏹️ ▶️ John bundles. And that is generally frowned upon now. And I think perhaps banned by
⏹️ ▶️ John code signing in the Mac App Store. I’m not, I don’t, I haven’t kept track of what those requirements are, but
⏹️ ▶️ John you used to be able to basically modify the contents of your applications any way you wanted. And with the advent of code signing,
⏹️ ▶️ John That is much more difficult because really, the application wants to know that it is running in an unmodified state. And you can do
⏹️ ▶️ John exceptions and all sorts of stuff like that. But yeah, all those applications that are
⏹️ ▶️ John buried inside the operating system folders, they can’t write anything to themselves anymore because they’re part
⏹️ ▶️ John of a real-only system partition. And on and on, all the way up to, like Mark was saying, third-party applications
⏹️ ▶️ John that expect to be able to write things there. The good news is that from day one, thanks to its heritage as
⏹️ ▶️ John the next-step operating system, the structure, the
⏹️ ▶️ John seemingly confusing sort of hall of mirror structure actually serves a purpose. Why is there
⏹️ ▶️ John tilde slash library, system library slash library and Neil days network
⏹️ ▶️ John library? Why are there so many directors called library? It’s a hierarchy of, you know, machine wide network
⏹️ ▶️ John wide operating system, home directory. Like the reason all those directory structures are mirrored is
⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re different domains. So in theory there should be a rideable place for you to correctly put the
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff that you care about. You shouldn’t be messing with the operating system. And system integrity protection probably took a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ John the heat for this change, because already most of the things having to do with the operating system
⏹️ ▶️ John are write-only. And when you’re running as a regular user, you can’t write into those directories anyway because they’re not owned by you.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m hoping it won’t be that painful. But inevitably, some things will break. I mean, presumably
⏹️ ▶️ John everything Adobe makes will break, but what else is new?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Mobile Lux. Mobile Lux is a full-service digital
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco the website or anything, and they did the entire thing start to finish. It was a pleasure
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New iPod Touch?!
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, if you’re wondering if your current mobile strategy is the right one for your company, or if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re concerned that your website UX is costing you customers, or if you need quality digital product
⏹️ ▶️ Marco built for scale from the ground up, give MobileLux a call. You can call them on the phone at 804-767-7104,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or learn more at mobilelux.com. That’s M-O-B-E-L-U-X.com.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once again, thank you so much to MobileLux for just making awesome products and for sponsoring our show.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so hot off the presses, it was yesterday, I believe, we got the thing we’ve all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey been waiting for, a new iPod touch. Whoa.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I give them credit. So this was something that we did not see coming. I don’t think anybody
⏹️ ▶️ Marco saw it coming. No, no, definitely not. And earlier this spring, when they did the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco week updates, and they did the new iPads and We all were kind of looking at a touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as maybe like the Friday thing Because it was very old. It was previously
⏹️ ▶️ Marco running. I believe an a8 processor, right? And so it was it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very old. It was very slow and It was running a processor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the next version of iOS Probably won’t support So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they had to either update it or kill it and so they, I think, did the minimum update they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could, which is they gave it the A10 CPU, they updated the capacities
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit, and that’s about it. Everything else about it stayed pretty much the same.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still a fan of this product. I mean, obviously, they let it go, was it four years without an update? It’s kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculous, but I like the fact that it exists. Mostly, you know, so iPods are gone now
⏹️ ▶️ John entirely, right? Like, there’s nothing left there, even like
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in a- I tried, there’s nothing left!
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And first of all, this is like the world’s most amazing
⏹️ ▶️ John iPod because it does run iOS. They presumably will run the latest version of it. That’s got lots of cool features.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it does all the things that you would expect to do, just slightly slower.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not burdened by the cell phone stuff. It can hold a lot of songs if you get the 256 gig model.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re incredibly small and light because it’s very old
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, and there’s nothing big and bulky in them. The cameras certainly aren’t fancy or big and bulky.
⏹️ ▶️ John And people talk about who might want to buy this. Obviously, kids
⏹️ ▶️ John come up as a potential use for it, but also enterprise applications for point
⏹️ ▶️ John of sale type things where they don’t need to have a cell connection because they’re in a store with Wi-Fi. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John this is still a good product. I mean, it’s certainly a lot of bang for your buck. $199 for a 32 gigabyte iOS
⏹️ ▶️ John device that runs the latest OS. you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John presumably runs it pretty well, it’s a pretty good deal. It was not a good deal like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John five days ago when it was an A8 with an A10. It’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey little bit better deal.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not like they’re, they didn’t, you know, update it to an A12, that would be something else. Like, but that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not the role of this product. So I’m glad it still exists. All my kids had iPod touches until
⏹️ ▶️ John they graduated to iPhones. So I still think that’s definitely a valid use case. So lots of people are saying, oh, they’re just gonna get hand-me-down
⏹️ ▶️ John phones. Sometimes, but sometimes the grownups want to trade those phones in because they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John valuable and they get money off their next iPhone rather than giving their
⏹️ ▶️ John kids, you know, their hand-me-down $1,000 iPhone. It feels much better to get your kid
⏹️ ▶️ John a $200 iPod Touch and then if they drop it in the ocean, it’s not as big a deal.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I do, I think this is good. I’m not entirely sure that there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a huge market for it. You know, I think kids are obvious. I think test devices is obvious, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I still think it should exist. I don’t begrudge this existing and even though I’m not amped about it,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I certainly if I was still at my job, my job would be amped about it. So yeah, I mean, I think I think this is this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is good. I’m okay with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this. I think it sucks. I mean, I see why they have it that they have to have. I know why Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinks it sucks. Wait, why? I’m curious.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because you don’t want to cram your UI into a screen that small anymore. This just extends the timeline even further.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s true. And so so yeah, I would I would love to not need to support the four screen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco size because it just it makes it so hard to design a modern layout that looks that looks good and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco scales well to the larger phones that also works on the 4-inch phones but as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a number of people pointed out to me on Twitter over the last day I would still have to support it for a while
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway because remember when the iPhone 7 and there when the iPhone 6 and 6 plus came out they introduced display
⏹️ ▶️ Marco zoom mode where you can actually run the entire OS at like a resolution
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lower than what the screen will natively do to make everything a a little bit bigger. This is separate from dynamic text,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco separate from everything else. This is like when you set it up, it asks you whether you want to run it in display zoom or not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so for people who want everything to be bigger, that’s actually a pretty good option. And the display zoom
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen size for the iPhone 6, 7, and 8 size phones is this screen size.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So even if they stopped selling 4-inch screen devices and just killed the iPod Touch or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made it bigger and they already stopped selling the SE, even if they totally stopped selling them, we still have to support that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen size for as long as the iPhone 6, 7, and 8 are supported because they have that display zoom
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mode that is that size. But anyway, I think the iPod Touch sucks for lots of other reasons though. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me, like, again, like I’m glad they did it. Like if they’re gonna have the iPod Touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco remaining a product in their lineup, they might as well keep it updated at least once every four years. Like they couldn’t possibly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco show this product less love without totally killing it. But they’re doing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally the bare minimum to keep this product going. and that’s fine i think that’s all it deserves uh…
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my analytics show it gets very very low usage uh… and granted my i’m not representative maybe of its
⏹️ ▶️ Marco market but for ever it’s worth like almost no one overcast uses ipod touch and that’s fine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think the the kids market is much better serve much of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time by ipads and by the time they are ready to have something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in their pocket they can bring everywhere that is more than i’ve had they usually either gets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like their own iPhone, which I know sounds ridiculous to a lot of older people, but that’s what happens,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or they get hand-me-down iPhones, whether they’re activated or not. And so, honestly, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see a huge place for this for kids. What I do see is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is used in a lot of special roles, like a lot of point-of-sale systems, like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco roaming credit card terminal things, even in Apple stores, will often use iPod Touches.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s various industrial applications where you have people walking around with the iPod Touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a terminal for some random thing. There are a lot of specialty applications like that. So when you combine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that with the Some Kids market, I guess there’s enough use for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this thing. But I think there’s a reason why Apple shows it so little love,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that really, it is the right product for almost nobody.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I can understand that.
⏹️ ▶️ John That didn’t even change the case design as far as I can tell. Like, a different color, sure, but they sure didn’t put Touch ID on it.
⏹️ ▶️ John It looks like the same case. Like I don’t think it’s worth designing a purpose-built product, which I always
⏹️ ▶️ John advocate for the lower lines, like they did with the XR, right? It’s not worth that because they probably don’t sell
⏹️ ▶️ John enough of them, but it is worth continuing to update this. Because if they didn’t, I just
⏹️ ▶️ John feel like having a non-phone device
⏹️ ▶️ John that can run iOS and do Wi-Fi things that is not the size of an iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John is important. Maybe the Mini fills this role to some degree, But
⏹️ ▶️ John financially, it doesn’t make much sense to give your kids
⏹️ ▶️ John your hand-me-down $1,400 plus size phone when you could trade it in for $400
⏹️ ▶️ John off your next phone and use the difference to buy them one of these things.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know kids want iPads, but iPads are more expensive than this little dinky
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. So I still feel like there’s an important role. If Apple’s not gonna bring the prices down on any of their products, having something
⏹️ ▶️ John that runs iOS for 200 bucks is still, it’s kind of like
⏹️ ▶️ John their cheapest laptop. At various times, their cheapest laptop has been a good product. At various times, it has just been their cheapest
⏹️ ▶️ John laptop. This is just their cheapest iOS device, and it is fulfilling that role by continuing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, we have another leak from Gary Rambo, a couple of leaks actually. We have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey screenshots, actual screenshots of iOS 13,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey including dark mode and Mac OS 10 15, including the new music app.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know how these came to be. And I’m a little scared to find
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out. But you talked about it on a podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was stack traces. I haven’t listened
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I haven’t gotten, I’m listening, I’m like 20 minutes in, I haven’t gotten to that part yet. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John go into too much detail, but he was basically just, started off by fighting off the ideas
⏹️ ▶️ John of people saying, if this is supposed to be iOS 13, then why don’t I see this, that, and
⏹️ ▶️ John the other thing? Then why aren’t the icons changed? Then why, you know, and it’s like, he’s talking about that
⏹️ ▶️ John these, this and the macOS screenshots are like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John he’s saying if you install iOS 13 on your own personal phone, it
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t replace your wallpaper, right? It just leaves whatever you had there before because that’s how iOS updates go.
⏹️ ▶️ John So these are not marketing images of Apple showing off. Here’s what I was 13 looks like. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John some person’s phone that installed a bill of iOS 13 on it and took a screenshot and sent
⏹️ ▶️ John it or whatever. Like that’s, that’s the story behind it anyway, which is why it doesn’t look like
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple’s marketing images and why you see stuff that just looks like some person’s phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John And obviously any of this stuff can change before release and yada, yada, yada. But yeah, actual screenshots. I mean, it’s about that
⏹️ ▶️ John time, right? We are, you know, less than a week to go. It’s time to start getting the real leaks here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s true. These Iowa screenshots, you know, the dark mode looks good. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey generally I’m not I don’t have a strong opinion about it, but I do tend to like dark mode. Like I run tweet button, dark mode,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone overcast in dark mode. I like the dark mode. We can come back to that in a second. But I don’t remember who
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was. I saw point this out and now I cannot unsee it. and I think I really like it is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tools on the, well actually it’s in Guillerme’s post, but the tools for the screen, let me back
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up a half step. When you take a screenshot, you know you have all those tools at the bottom where you can mark them up, and the tools
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the screenshot thing actually have like a little bit of depth and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey texture to them, and it’s not overblown like it was, you know, circa iOS 6,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it’s enough that it’s nice, and I really, really like the look of it, and I’m really curious to see,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It looks like the pendulum is swinging back slightly in the direction of skeuomorphism again. And I think I’m okay
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like a children’s story where like at the beginning of the story, everybody lives in Johnny Ives’ white world
⏹️ ▶️ John and everybody and all the characters in the story are completely white. And then like about a quarter into
⏹️ ▶️ John the book, like someone comes out of his house and their nose is a little bit pink, not really pink, but just a little bit pink. And
⏹️ ▶️ John everyone looks at them and says, but your nose, what is that on your nose? Because they’ve never seen color before,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? And so these little things, these
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey tools on the bottom.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we talking about Pleasantville? What’s going
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe. These little tools at the bottom are like halfway through the book, where it’s mostly
⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of Johnny Ives’ white world tools, but they have a little touch of color. The highlighter is a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ John yellow, the eraser is a little bit pink. It’s very soft. It’s not super photorealistic. It’s still stylized.
⏹️ ▶️ John It looks like characters from the white world, with just a little bit of color. And I like
⏹️ ▶️ John it, and I like the pendulum swinging back in the other direction. It’s hard to tell how much of a trend this is, given just the
⏹️ ▶️ John very limited screenshots that we have, because for all we know, this is the only instance of this type of thing. But there’s one thing
⏹️ ▶️ John we can say about it, it’s not like line art, like the current things are. I’m not even sure,
⏹️ ▶️ John like we’re just talking about the aesthetics, right? I’m not even sure these read
⏹️ ▶️ John better, like in terms of if you were to ask somebody who knows nothing about Apple, what does this tool do, what does that tool
⏹️ ▶️ John do? They’re a little bit faint and low contrast, especially since they lack the outlines.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, can you distinguish between, like, the pen on the left and the pen on the right that are surrounding the highlighter?
⏹️ ▶️ John What are the differences? One of those is a pencil and one of them’s a pen. That’s a good point. Some interesting choices
⏹️ ▶️ John of, like, the eraser having a little X on it, because maybe without the X it doesn’t read as an eraser, but with
⏹️ ▶️ John the X you might be confused a little bit. The little smudger tool, the little pencil
⏹️ ▶️ John cone smudger thing, do non-artists even know what the hell that is? Do I know what it is? Is that what that
⏹️ ▶️ John is? I thought, I think that’s what it is. If it’s not that, then I’m failing to identify it at all.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, I totally could not tell that the two different pencil-shaped things were a pen and a pencil. I thought they were
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just two pens. Now that you say that, now I can see like the little, like, you know, hexagonal shape
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the shaft of the
⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s really light, I hope you have good eyes.
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah. I hope you have a very accurate screen calibrated correctly with the right brightness levels.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You can tell that. Yeah, you’re not seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that on the phone. Like maybe on the iPad you might see it, on the phone you’re not seeing that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and it doesn’t matter that much for these tools because it’s not a daily use thing and
⏹️ ▶️ John eventually you learn what they are because the positions don’t change and it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If anything, the fact that they made a pencil that looks like no pencil in the world because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they had to make it white.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well, it doesn’t even
⏹️ ▶️ John look like the Apple pencil.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, it looks like no pencil in the world. I don’t know, that I think might say
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re not ready for this yet. They’re not ready to give up Johnny has a white world yet because they couldn’t even make
⏹️ ▶️ John And what do the numbers mean? 97, 80, 50? Yeah, at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first I thought that might be size of the brush tip, but I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they would be displaying that on the icons for the non-selected tools.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a clever use of just showing what they’re, because each tool does have its own separate brush size, and that might be what
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s for. If you roll backwards six feet and grab one of these things off Tiff’s
⏹️ ▶️ John desk, I bet she has one of these little paper smudging tools. I’m assuming that’s what that is, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I could be totally wrong. They could be trying to draw an X-Acto knife a bad job at it. Do you know what I’m talking about, Marco?
⏹️ ▶️ John No. Next time you do a Pokemon thing, I’ll find an image of
⏹️ ▶️ John it online and you’ll recognize it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So is the idea to possibly be like a blur tool, to blur out sensitive information,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hopefully better than the current tools do, which don’t really
⏹️ ▶️ John work? Yeah, right. Yeah, I’m wondering that. That could be. It’s a paper stump. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the phrase I couldn’t grab. A
⏹️ ▶️ Casey paper stump. I’ve never heard of this. this blend of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re a blending stump I have no idea what you talking about
⏹️ ▶️ John yes didn’t you get you go to art class no is it can’t a whole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean like an elementary school but they didn’t have blending stumps then
⏹️ ▶️ John let’s try to search for blending stuff there I put in the chat
⏹️ ▶️ Marco room yeah I’ve I’ve never seen this in my life
⏹️ ▶️ John there there I guarantee to phones these guarantee it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gray paper stumps so what what do you do with
⏹️ ▶️ John this yeah like if you’re doing a pencil drawing and you want to blend some of the shading of the pencil and you don’t want to rub your finger
⏹️ ▶️ John on it and get graphite all over your finger, you rub this thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is it like rubbery or is it like?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, it’s paper.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like made of like cardboardy paper. Oh. Like rolled up, like the,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s, you know, rolled, rolled around, around a little cone thing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. Well, now that you’re sending me this picture of these things, I do think there’s a non-trivial chance that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is what they’re trying to represent with this tool
⏹️ ▶️ John for smudging away sensitive information.
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s my guess too, but. But yikes.
⏹️ ▶️ John if you get, you know, judging these not aesthetically, but as like UI elements, where someone is supposed
⏹️ ▶️ John to look at them recognize the function, and remember it, if you’ve never seen one of these things
⏹️ ▶️ John in real life, despite the fact that being that being an actual tool that artists will recognize and
⏹️ ▶️ John understand the regular person was gonna be like, what is that supposed to be? And this will be a fun if they ship with
⏹️ ▶️ John anything like this, because again, these could be non final graphics, they ship with anything like this. It’s one of those instances where
⏹️ ▶️ John regular people are going to have to communicate with each other to spread the knowledge
⏹️ ▶️ John that if you want to blur sensitive information in a screenshot, you use the whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John tool. And I wonder what name they’re going to come up with, like the conehead tool or the barber pole
⏹️ ▶️ John tool or the pointy tool next to the eraser. Like surely someone will come up with a name.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh no, I got it. The pixel stump.
⏹️ ▶️ John But they have to know it’s a blending stump then. Like they’ll come up with some kind of way to describe it to each other because, or
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple will talk about it in the keynote and we’ll all just latch on to whatever name they use, which will probably be Blending Stump.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, let me give you one better. Steve Chodin-Smith just pointed out to me that that is taking the place
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the Lasso in today’s iOS. So can you imagine
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco if that’s actually the Lasso?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe it’s the X-Acto.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it can’t be X-Acto. That’s the worst drawn X-Acto ever. It is definitely a
⏹️ ▶️ John Blending Stump. It’s the worst drawn pencil ever. Fair point. can tell it’s a thing that puts
⏹️ ▶️ John marks on paper. Like this is you’re saying is either, is it a knife or is it a thing that smudges? Those are pretty different.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually, you know what? The reason why I think it might be an X-Acto is that it doesn’t look, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco haven’t measured this yet, but it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John doesn’t look like the tip is straight. Yeah, it looks like it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John or it’s not a perfectly straight. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John blending stumps, first of all, that could be an optical illusion because of the diagonal lines, because our brains are
⏹️ ▶️ John But second, blending stumps aren’t exactly symmetrical. It could be artistic license.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I think it is leaning a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey little bit too much.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, I’m sure there’ll be an entire section of the keynote just about these tools.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So I’m sure we’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John learn everything we wanna know.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, anything else in these iOS 13 screenshots? Do you wanna talk about dark mode? Is there anything there that you’d like to discuss?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, as the article points out, the one screenshot they show of, I guess this is the music app, shows them using,
⏹️ ▶️ John as far as we can tell, 100% black in the backgrounds, which is the most energy you
⏹️ ▶️ John can save by not lighting up pixels at all. Interestingly, you don’t have to go 100% black to save energy.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you do a dimmer color, it also takes less power than, you know, bright white. But
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an interesting aesthetic choice and it makes sense in a world where many iPhones
⏹️ ▶️ John have OLED displays.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is interesting though, like, you know, like as somebody who has designed a couple of these themes now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pure black does look best on OLED displays because you lose the seams. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you totally lose the margins between the screen and the bezel, which is great. However,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it brings a number of challenges. Number one is that pure black does have that weird ripple effect when you scroll on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an OLED real fast, like things kind of lag behind and there’s like this weird optical effect that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the pixels haven’t turned all the way back off, all the way back on, like it’s kind of odd. And that doesn’t happen as much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with even like slightly non-black colors. And then the biggest problem with an all black
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen is that you lose the ability to use shadows behind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things to show depth and layering. and it really, you don’t realize
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much you depend on like a little modal sheet that has a shadow behind it to show that it’s floating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco above the thing behind it. You don’t realize that you need that so much until
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the color behind it is already pure black so it can’t be in a darker so you can’t see a shadow on it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s such a commonly used element in iOS that it’s gonna require some really tricky design
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tweaks to everyone’s apps doing this if they actually wanna use pure black. So I’m curious to see how Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have solved a lot of these problems, or if they’ve solved them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, it’s not like it’s gonna be a requirement of dark mode, I assume, that you’ll actually have to be 100% black. Like, you’ll
⏹️ ▶️ John have control, you’ll know when you’re in dark mode and you can control what your application looks like and that, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m assuming it’s just like dark mode on the Mac,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right? Yeah, yeah, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably just like you, probably all the standard system controls update themselves, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you as the app maker can respond to changes of the selective
⏹️ ▶️ Marco theme, and you can then theme it however you want.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and speaking of the Mac, the next thing was, screenshots the very bare screenshots of the music
⏹️ ▶️ John and TV applications which basically just show the layout of the main window in
⏹️ ▶️ John the sidebar. If there was any content in the main portion of the window
⏹️ ▶️ John it has been blanked out I don’t know if it was missing entirely or they just removed it or whatever but there’s there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John things to to note here first of all the music application doesn’t look like iTunes they rearranged all the
⏹️ ▶️ John controls it looks like sort of a modern an Apple Mac application where they get
⏹️ ▶️ John rid of the title bar and make a semi-vibrant sidebar
⏹️ ▶️ John and with a bunch of icons on it. And they shove the search fields up above
⏹️ ▶️ John the sidebar and it’s still got that iTunes play button and progress bar and a bunch of weird stuff. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s kind of homely and not particularly standard, but I mean, maybe that way it is like iTunes. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John a modern re-imagining of iTunes. Very non-standard and weird, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be recognizable as the place where you play music. The most interesting thing about it is that in the sidebar, there’s actual
⏹️ ▶️ John color, there’s these little icons for the various things in the sidebar have gradients on them
⏹️ ▶️ John and are bright pink and in an otherwise very drab gray window.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s nice to have a touch of color here, but it’s hard to judge his application without actually seeing anything other than the sidebar.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if anything, if you look at the pictures, So they have the TV app and the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new music app, which is slash iTunes. And the TV app looks like a Marzipan
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app. It looks very similar to what we’ve seen from the capabilities of other Marzipan apps and from Steve Tiaz’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hacking of, it has the selector on the top in the title bar, toolbar area.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, it looks like a Marzipan app. The music app looks different. It looks very,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, if you just look at it for a split second, you might think it looks similar, but if you look for more than that, you see there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually, it actually looks very different. The title bar is a totally different structure, a totally different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco visual look and hierarchy and theming and shading and everything else. So I think this does lend
⏹️ ▶️ Marco credence to the rumor that it is not, not only not a Marzipan app, but that it is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, a lot more based on iTunes than you would have maybe guessed. iTunes has been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rethemed many times over its very long life. So this just being the latest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco theme of it would not be that big of a surprise. And I think it very clearly does not look like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco other Marshappan apps.
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, like, I mean, they have sessions on this all the time about what to do with all the various names for these like title
⏹️ ▶️ John bars that don’t have titles in them and where to position things. And then Apple ships their own applications where like
⏹️ ▶️ John the stoplight widgets move all over the place. And sometimes there’s not like in the iTunes one, there isn’t really
⏹️ ▶️ John a title bar. The window widgets are basically in the sidebar and there’s nothing on top. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John more recently in recent couple of years, they’ve always been trying to find a place to hide the less than sign
⏹️ ▶️ John button, which is the back navigation button. Boy, if you’ve ever taken a regular person and put them in
⏹️ ▶️ John front of photos on the Mac and navigated them into a place and watched them struggle to figure out how the hell to get out of it,
⏹️ ▶️ John they will never see way up on the left somewhere that little less than sign. Like, it’s invisible
⏹️ ▶️ John to them. There’s just a giant grid of pictures and they see the sidebar because it has text, they
⏹️ ▶️ John will never find that button. Half the time, I can’t find it. Half the time, I hit like escape or whatever and try to get, it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John oh yeah, I have to hit back. It’s not like a web browser where you’re accustomed to
⏹️ ▶️ John forward, back, stop, reload, address, like it’s a paradigm that’s been hammered into our brains. These Mac applications
⏹️ ▶️ John that fancy themselves weird single window browser things that have this lone back button that they chuck
⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere into the upper left and hope people find it. Like I feel like a lot of these Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John applications, Apple’s included, are kind of out in the wilderness trying to figure out what happens at the top of the window
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly? Like what’s going on up there? And Apple’s answer is, I don’t know, just try some stuff, throw some things
⏹️ ▶️ John up there. How are things supposed to be aligned? Beats me, just do something. I mean, in some respects,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s fine. Like it’s one of the lessons from the Apple Human Interface Guidelines
⏹️ ▶️ John back from the classic Mac OS days that I referenced several times. And in fact, I think quoted in its entirety in one of my
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS X reviews, that things don’t have to look exactly the same.
⏹️ ▶️ John Those three window widgets, as long as they’re basically the same distance from each other and in the same arrangement
⏹️ ▶️ John and in the upper left somewhere, you don’t always have to have them the exact number of pixels off the left and top edge.
⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t always have to be aligned exactly the same way. Like if they’re up there, people will see them, recognize
⏹️ ▶️ John them and understand what they do. Mostly the same for the back button. Its main problem isn’t the fact that it moves around. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that it’s so far out of like the flow of the otherwise, you know, the paradigm, the application,
⏹️ ▶️ John the navigation paradigm is otherwise very different than that button indicates. So I don’t begrudge Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John moving things around and having things in weird positions, But I feel like there should
⏹️ ▶️ John still be some best practices and some standard widgets to let you achieve the best practices. And it seems like instead
⏹️ ▶️ John that every application is an opportunity to find new homes for all this stuff. And that the navigational paradigm,
⏹️ ▶️ John unlike, for example, original iOS, which was so clear of like, you can come up from the bottom, you can go to the
⏹️ ▶️ John sides, they have the whatever that nav bar controller thing, like there were certain paradigms that were
⏹️ ▶️ John like, if you use this paradigm in your application, this is how it works and people understand it. And it’s always the same
⏹️ ▶️ John in applications that behave like this. And even as they’ve expanded it to have things coming out from different directions and
⏹️ ▶️ John card interfaces and stuff like that, they’ve always had sessions to say, if you do this, make sure you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John essentially spatially consistent. Don’t have things appear from the bottom and then disappear to the left, because
⏹️ ▶️ John it makes no sense. Don’t have things zoom in and then fade out instead of
⏹️ ▶️ John regressing or whatever. And I think Mac applications are like, they could use them as the don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John do examples. And Apple’s own applications could be used is the negative example, say, don’t make an
⏹️ ▶️ John application that behaves one way. But if you get caught into this little navigational alley, you have to find the back button that you
⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise never need. Because you can navigate with the sidebar that switches in one dimension, and then the tab
⏹️ ▶️ John bar that switches in the top dimension. And then in the main pane, there’s a separate set of navigation. But then also occasionally, you need to go to the
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that’s in the title bar and hit that back button to get out of it. It’s just, if you try to map these out,
⏹️ ▶️ John they make no sense spatially. And they don’t present a coherent paradigm. Sorry, I’m bagging
⏹️ ▶️ John on these applications that we have these empty screenshots of, but I’m just, I’m a little bit frustrated with the state
⏹️ ▶️ John of a macOS application design, independent of the Mars band thing, because that doesn’t really make it really worse
⏹️ ▶️ John or better. And if anything, it could make it better if what we get on the Mac are applications that don’t behave
⏹️ ▶️ John like Mac applications in terms of navigation, but behave like iOS 4 applications, then at least they’d have a consistent
⏹️ ▶️ John navigation paradigm.
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Pro Display rumors
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey We should probably give John his moment. John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there are rumors about Apple’s Pro Display. Be still your heart. What do you think?
⏹️ ▶️ John our moments, not just my moment. Everyone wants an Apple display.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I want one. I’m sure it’ll be
⏹️ ▶️ John very affordable. Occasionally I hear people talking about this on podcasts and they forget that it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John rumored that Apple’s making a display. Apple said they’re making a display. Like the rumors are like,
⏹️ ▶️ John what about, what is that display exactly like? But this is not speculation. Apple said they’re making a display, so they’re making a display until
⏹️ ▶️ John we hear otherwise. Anyway, latest rumor about it I thought was interesting. We’ve talked about this before, about 6K display
⏹️ ▶️ John versus 8K and what the weird dimensions are in 31.6 inches. and you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John all these other things about it. There’s a little bit more information here about it being P3 and supporting HDR and night shift and
⏹️ ▶️ John true tone and all that other stuff. But the most interesting part of this rumor and the new piece of information as far as I’m concerned is
⏹️ ▶️ John what size and shape would this monitor be? 31.6 inch diagonal
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t tell you that much because there’s lots of different shape screens that can be like that. This
⏹️ ▶️ John article says that it is basically the 5K display that’s on all the 5K iMacs and the
⏹️ ▶️ John iMac Pro with wings. So basically take the 5k display and add
⏹️ ▶️ John pixels to the left and to the right. So exactly the same height and exactly the same pixel dimensions as the 5k,
⏹️ ▶️ John but just more on the left and the right. So it’s sort of an ultra wide format display, which are very popular with people these days.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, and I think that is clever and fairly perfect because
⏹️ ▶️ John those wide displays are popular, despite the fact that I would prefer it to be taller, but I understand that’s not the trend these days
⏹️ ▶️ John and it potentially allows this monitor to be placed alongside
⏹️ ▶️ John either a current or a future iMac and have exactly the same height screen so you could line them up
⏹️ ▶️ John alongside each other and you could buy two of these displays plus your big 5 or 6k iMac display
⏹️ ▶️ John and they would all look nice together. That’s probably not going to be true when this is introduced because
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t imagine this thing being offered with a stand that allows us to be aligned with the current iMacs, but
⏹️ ▶️ John as I’ve said before, I hope that the current iMacs are close to the last generation of this
⏹️ ▶️ John specific hardware design and they can revise it slightly and have new iMacs come out that match the display
⏹️ ▶️ John and that have Face ID built in and all sorts of great stuff and that would be great. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John I would prefer something with the proportions of the old 30 inch Apple Cinema display, but
⏹️ ▶️ John taking the 5K display and just making it wider has a certain sort of logical
⏹️ ▶️ John progression and appeal to me. So I’m still looking forward to this monitor.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, me too. I mean the the world of PC monitors is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite miserable for Apple fans. Like there’s a lot of options out there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are very, very different from what we’re looking for. Like, first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all, there just aren’t really any 5k monitors. There isn’t really anything above
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. You In the PC world, what we would call non-retina screens still dominate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of the screens that are out there and that are in use. And Windows still doesn’t really have great retina support.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Windows customers still largely don’t demand retina screens, or they are happy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the more intermediary resolutions that are like 1.5x, what we would consider
⏹️ ▶️ Marco compared to the 2x that retina is for certain densities. So the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco world of non-Apple options out there, while PC people seem okay with them, for Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people, it’s not okay. And so to
⏹️ ▶️ John have- If anything, the non-retina ones are an advantage because some of
⏹️ ▶️ John the most demanding customers in the PC space are gamers, and they do not want retina because games can barely
⏹️ ▶️ John drive the 1X resolution on these very wide monitors. If you gave them retina, they would
⏹️ ▶️ John never use that resolution. No game wants to run that many pixels. So the highest
⏹️ ▶️ John end consumer, sort of consumer-oriented purchasers, of like not pro people who are working
⏹️ ▶️ John on like 8K video editing or whatever, but just consumers and they want a really monitor, they want a really big wide monitor
⏹️ ▶️ John that they can play games at at 1X in Apple parlance. So that’s, I feel like that’s still driving the market over there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, totally. And I also just, I’m also just very excited to see Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically grow past the resolution or at least the point
⏹️ ▶️ Marco resolution that we have been at and not exceeding since the release
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the 30 inch cinema display. Like we have had 25, 60 points across
⏹️ ▶️ Marco since then. And in fact, the cinema display was taller. The cinema display was 1600 points tall and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new ones are the current five Ks are only 1440. So the 30 inch displays
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we had of yesteryear while they were non retina actually had a little bit more screen real
⏹️ ▶️ Marco estate than what the 27 inch retina ones offer us now. And so I would, I’m just very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco excited to see this potentially break out of that and just give us a little bit more space. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do think that the limit of your field of view is probably not that much bigger than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where we are now with these monitors. But I don’t think we’re at that limit yet. I think we can go a little bit bigger and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can make use of that space without turning our necks. And so to have Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco push that boundary for the first time in a long time, I’m very excited about that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Plus, you’re going to need all this extra space on the left and the right to park all all your little Marzipan iPhone apps next year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The two little skinny columns, you can fit like six iPhone apps. Call them the phone alleys.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey right and phone
⏹️ ▶️ John alley left. If you ever wanted to make your side dock maximum
⏹️ ▶️ John icon size, which I think is 512 now, can you make the dock big enough to get a 512 pixel icon? I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ John sure, but anyway, you’ll be able to on the 6K display. You’ll finally have room to do that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so anyway, I’m looking forward to it. And the reality is like, it’s gonna cost what it’s gonna cost. We
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know Modern Apple, we know their game. When we get them to finally make what we want,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it always costs about 40% more than we want it to. And that’s what’s gonna happen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here. It’s gonna be 40% more than we think it should be, and we’re gonna eventually buy it anyway. Right, Apple’s gonna say, see, that’s why we didn’t make
⏹️ ▶️ John any of these in for 10 years. Yeah, that’s it. So
⏹️ ▶️ John you could save your pennies.
Final Mac Pro predictions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s assume for a second that John gets his wish and the Mac Pro is announced
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and let’s even go so crazy and say that it’s available at the end of June. I’m just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco kind of pulling it out of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John the hat. That is crazy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s very crazy. It’s absolutely crazy but just for the sake of a thought exercise. I assume both of you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are insta-buying it or John are you going to find some reason to figure out why
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it’s not good enough for
⏹️ ▶️ John you? I will find reasons but I do think about things before I buy them. I’m not going
⏹️ ▶️ John to make an impulse purchase after 10 years. I’m going to look at it and be excited by it, and then I’m going to
⏹️ ▶️ John decide, is this a thing that I want to buy, or do I just want to get an iMac Pro? I will think about
⏹️ ▶️ John that and make that decision.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So actually, I had an idea for a little segment to do here. Basically, this is probably going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the last episode that we record where we don’t know anything about the Mac Pro. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I kind of wanted to go through like final predictions of our guesses on some points
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here about the new Mac Pro. So first thing, what do you guys
⏹️ ▶️ Marco predict about the case shape and size class?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Size class just gives me the shakes.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, size class I think we could get pretty quickly. It is not going to be full tower
⏹️ ▶️ John sized. I will be shocked if it is as big as a cheese grater, right? I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John not that I would object to that, but I will be very surprised if it is as big. I can imagine though it being
⏹️ ▶️ John close to as big. So I would say it’s not gonna be as small as the trash can, probably
⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna be as big as the cheese grater, but if I had to pick a position in that spectrum, I’m willing to
⏹️ ▶️ John believe that it might be closer to the cheese grater than the trash can.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I would agree with that. The thing that I’m really wondering about is, you know, we’ve heard reports
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that it’s going to be like a bunch of pizza boxes that you can stack up, right? And that’s how it becomes modular.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, I’ll get there, I’ll get there, I’ll get
⏹️ ▶️ John there. Have we heard reports? We’ve heard fantasies.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes. Well, OK, fair,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fair, fair, fair. But what I’m driving at is I feel I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know enough about the hardware to know is it really feasible, unless Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey does something truly custom, is it feasible to split a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey motherboard, so to speak, across several physical boxes? Is it really feasible to have an eGPU
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as the only GPU? Is it really feasible to have, I don’t know, like a box full of hard
⏹️ ▶️ Casey drives or SSDs or what have you. Is there a met is there? Is that what Thunderbolts really for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that what can you is PCI Express going to fix this problem? I’m throwing buzzwords out because I’m so far
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of this game now, but you know that that I think directly affects what this looks like if this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it’s the sort of thing. We don’t have the technology to split this out physically into several boxes. And yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s something that’s going to be like a mini tower of you know, the late 90s where it’s bigger
⏹️ ▶️ Casey than the trash can but not quite a cheese grater. But if it is modular
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the physical sense of the word then I mean all bets are off at that point.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that honestly, so I will say my size prediction is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the assumption that it’s not going to be modular like with separate boxes because I think the separate boxes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing is still a fantasy and may always be a fantasy because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the practical realities of such a of setup are just so complex
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so compromised in so many ways that we want the Mac Pro not to be compromised in, that I just, I don’t see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it happening. It presents severe challenges for things like cooling, noise, power
⏹️ ▶️ Marco distribution, you know, the thermals that result from that, compatibility, forwards
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and backwards compatibility with various modules, weird combinations being possible. Like, it just presents
⏹️ ▶️ Marco us so many problems, and it’s so incredibly ungraceful in a way that I don’t think Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would do, that I just, I don’t think it’s, I don’t think we ever have to worry about the separate box thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco becoming the reality. So if we’re assuming that it’s one box, my guess on the case
⏹️ ▶️ Marco size class is, see, I don’t think it’s gonna be as big as John, like John, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were kind of leaning more towards like, possibly as closer to the cheese grater than to the trash can. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll be closer to the trash can, but still bigger. So I’m kind of thinking like, if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco put like two trash cans next to each other and draw an enclosing box around them, That, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think, is roughly the size we’re talking about. So, bigger than the trash can, but still a pretty small
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if that’s big enough to fit a full-length PCI card in there, though, and I’m assuming it will have PCI cards. So
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s kind of what I’m using to sketch out the box in my head.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ll get there, too. But yeah, because that is a question, and I mean, I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody uses full-length cards anymore, because that required the old 90s towers to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a full-length card that would go past the speaker. But a modern graphics
⏹️ ▶️ Marco card We’ll get to that, but yeah, so I’m leaning towards two trash cans worth
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of volume and like the enclosing box around them. But do you think they’re gonna try to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of overly clever shape? Or do you think they’re gonna go with a rectangular
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s one question to consider before that that none of us have been even thinking of, but I mean, I don’t think this is a high
⏹️ ▶️ John possibility, but I do occasionally entertain it. We are all thinking of a vertical thing because
⏹️ ▶️ John for the longest time, Pro Computers, the tower has been the form factor. But for a long time before that,
⏹️ ▶️ John even quote unquote workstation computers, many of them, they would lay flat. And you’d
⏹️ ▶️ John put your gigantic monitor on top of them. You had the NexLab. You had all the traditional desktop
⏹️ ▶️ John Macs that came, the desktop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco PCs. My first computer was a desktop. And that’s what a desktop meant. It was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically a sideways
⏹️ ▶️ John mid-tower. And you put your monitor on top of it. And that seems very
⏹️ ▶️ John unlikely just because of the primacy of towers and, and honestly, like you probably
⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t like ergonomically, it’s not great. There’s so many reasons why they wouldn’t do it. But I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac mini is technically that form factor, even though it’s so tiny, you can’t really put anything on top of it.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t rule that out entirely. That doesn’t really change the shape and the volume. And Margo’s thing
⏹️ ▶️ John of like two trash can volume, I’ve been thinking more like three trash can volume slightly redistributed.
⏹️ ▶️ John So we’re I think we’re We’re kind of in the same ballpark, but the trash can is so small. That’s why I say closer to the cheese grater than
⏹️ ▶️ John the trash can. If you actually look at the volumes and find the midpoint,
⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t take much to be bigger than that. But anyway, what was the next
⏹️ ▶️ John one we were going to?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so actually, and one small comment, because we’re never going to get through this topic. One small
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comment. The Mac Pro also has to fulfill the role for certain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco uses of having a bunch of them put together in compute farms or data centers or whatever else.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In previous generations, the XServe would serve this function. The XServe was basically just a Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a 1U enclosure.
⏹️ ▶️ John The Trashcan was perfect. It was
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco perfect to put in racks, right? It was
⏹️ ▶️ John absolutely designed to be the hardest thing to put in a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. Didn’t Mac Mini Colo or Mac Stadium, didn’t they actually build custom
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John rack mounts for these that you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco put them on their side and put three of them across a rack? That took up all the space in the rack basically.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So yeah, the trash can was about as bad as you can be for rack mountability.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the new Mac Pro, now that they’re again, reconsidering what pros actually need, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can’t imagine that they’re going to bring back the XServe or have any other kind of alternate shape. So if we assume
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that one computer here is also gonna attempt to be better for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco putting in racks, that might lend credence to it being a little bit bigger and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco flatter. Now, I still think that’s unlikely, but maybe they would consider that. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would be an appropriate size that you could lay down two of them, and that would be the approximate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco width of a rack. Who knows?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, that gets to your next topic, which is, is it a weird shape or is it not? And while I don’t think Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John cares much about rackability, I have been thinking that it will be more rectilinear
⏹️ ▶️ John than the trash can,
⏹️ ▶️ John not hard, because that’s a cylinder, but I’m thinking that, But just
⏹️ ▶️ John practically speaking, this is why this is why the cheese grater is such a design like that it does not shy away from the fact
⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s basically a rectangular saw. It’s got handles for flair, but it’s like air goes in the cool air
⏹️ ▶️ John goes in the front, hot air goes out the back. It is rectangular because most of the things that have to go inside it are
⏹️ ▶️ John rectangular and they don’t bother putting flares or fins on it. They don’t hide the fact that the sides are absolutely straight. The front
⏹️ ▶️ John is absolutely straight. The back is absolutely straight. Like you know, if you want to see a tower with flair, look at the black and white,
⏹️ ▶️ John the the blue and white G3 or the G4 and the Quicksilver and the wind tunnel, like those all had
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of flair, but in the end there was a rectangular solid buried in the middle of all that cool stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John But the cheese grater was just more modern apple design of like not hiding from what they are. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I keep picturing something in my head that is not shy about its rectilinear
⏹️ ▶️ John nature. Now I could be entirely wrong. They made a fricking cylinder, right? They, you know, who knows? And they do love their
⏹️ ▶️ John rounded corners, right? But that’s what I keep picturing. And I guess that counts
⏹️ ▶️ John as not a weird shape, like not an octagon, not a dodecahedron, not a pyramid,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Even if it’s got rounded corners, something rectilinear, which
⏹️ ▶️ John ties into the rack mounting in that like, okay, it’s not made to rack mount, but it’s also not grossly inefficient
⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of space, use it just like a sphere or a cylinder, especially a cylinder that doesn’t even go the full
⏹️ ▶️ John like depth of the rack, you’re just wasting space. I mean, if any of the Mac Mini is more efficient
⏹️ ▶️ John use of rack space because you can vertically stack them and just pile them up into, so that’s what I’m picturing
⏹️ ▶️ John right now is not an entirely crazy shape, not even
⏹️ ▶️ John as crazy as a cylinder.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’m kind of thinking the same thing. I think the cylinder, I think, first of all,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it humbled them a little bit. Like it was too clever and resulted in major problems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a result. But I think if you’re trying to make the smallest enclosure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can still fit a couple of PCI cards maybe, or a couple of GPUs,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really like a compact rectangle of some kind is probably the way to do that. So I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re done with the fun shapes for now. At best, maybe a cube, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a cube is a really inefficient use of space if you want to fit standard cards.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I don’t even think they would even do that. I’m leaning more towards some kind of approximate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tower shape, even if it’s a really small tower.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I would say the same thing, absolutely.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t think that means it has to be boring either. You can do a lot with surface finishes and details. Like I said,
⏹️ ▶️ John the blue and white G3 and that whole line, the Yosemite, before there was an OS called Yosemite, there was a tower
⏹️ ▶️ John called Yosemite. That was a beautiful, there’s a tower called El Cap
⏹️ ▶️ John too, by the way. That design was
⏹️ ▶️ John an amazing combination of utility, like in the end, there
⏹️ ▶️ John was a metal rectangle in there with a door on the side, but also beauty and not
⏹️ ▶️ John all the flares and bulges didn’t take up that much extra room. But I feel like modern Apple would even
⏹️ ▶️ John think that’s too much ornamentation and would make the shape, whatever the shape
⏹️ ▶️ John is, the generally rectangular is shape, whether it has rounded corners or not beautiful because
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s simple and has nice surface finishes and maybe one or two interesting details on it. I don’t think it will have RGB
⏹️ ▶️ John lights. Sorry, Mike, but I think there’s a lot you can do within
⏹️ ▶️ John the constraints that we’ve outlined to make this a really good looking machine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, next question. This I think is interesting. Do you think it will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have single or dual CPU sockets?
⏹️ ▶️ John This is tough. My gut instinct is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey single. So what would a dual socket CPU bring?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right now, you’re limited with the performance of processors today, like what you see in the iMac Pro. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iMac Pro has one CPU socket. So you can raise the core count to a really high core count,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it costs you in maximum clock speed and turbo boost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco speeds for all the cores because you’re still limited by the amount
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of power and heat dissipation that you can get out of one socket. So typically the workstation CPUs might be in the range of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 160 watt power output max. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you’re limited by like, you can cram 18 cores in there or whatever, the number is that year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but those are gonna be 18 slower cores than if you put in like two nine core
⏹️ ▶️ Marco CPUs. I know this is a bad example because having it is an odd number. Anyway, so like you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can get way more performance out of what you see with today’s CPUs if you get like 260 watt eight
⏹️ ▶️ Marco core models and then you can have 16 incredibly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fast cores instead of 18 kind of fast cores. That would also help differentiate the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Pro from the iMac Pro. Like, the Mac Pro, to a large degree, I think, has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to justify its existence here. Why does the Mac Pro need to exist above
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and beyond the iMac Pro? And the iMac Pro, just for, you know, slimness and thermals
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and space, is probably always gonna only have one CPU socket. Dual CPU sockets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be a way for the Mac Pro to differentiate itself and to raise the ceiling of what it can do.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All that being said, I don’t think they’re going to do it. Now that we have such high
⏹️ ▶️ Marco core counts in single sockets, that usually covers the massively
⏹️ ▶️ Marco parallel CPU workload pretty well. And the gap between
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the clock speeds that you get from the low core and the high core models is shrinking over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time, over different Xeon generations. And also, I think a dual CPU enclosure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has to accommodate such radically different things. Like a second CPU
⏹️ ▶️ Marco socket, and I think, I don’t know if the current chipsets are like this, but in the old chipsets, it would also have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a second bank of RAM slots. Having that be accommodated by one case design
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Apple probably wants to keep kind of small, as we discussed in the last question, I don’t think they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna do it, because I think it would require the case to be significantly bigger, the power supply to be significantly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger, beefy upgrades to accommodate another 160-watt CPU.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all this for a gain that, well, I would like it, and I would probably buy it that way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think most of its buyers would opt for. So I don’t think they’re gonna do dual CPU sockets.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. First of all, por que no los dos? Like, why couldn’t they have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lower grade builds that are one way and just heinously expensive builds that are,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco socket, but. Well, and by the way, and that’s what the cheese grater did. The cheese grater had both options and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco accommodated them very well, And they weren’t upgradable. Like you could, if you got the single socket
⏹️ ▶️ Marco model, there wasn’t a second empty socket there. Like it was just blank. And if you ever wanted to upgrade,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’d have to do a very pricey and very substantial upgrade to actually change that out. So they could, like they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could absolutely configure that in two different ways, even have two different power supplies or whatever else, you know, have very different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things. But I just, I don’t see them doing that for this game.
⏹️ ▶️ John It reminds me, I should have been loading this over you that every time you make fun of my computer, I’d be like, I’ve got twice as many CPUs
⏹️ ▶️ John Each of which is one one hundredth of speed, but you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, you have like eight iPhone five s cores in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whoo. The thing that the thing that what you were talking about, Marco made me think is that I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re onto something with the differentiation between the iMac pro and the Mac pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I kind of wonder if the Mac pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is going to be Apple saying to us, Oh, you something professional? Well, f*** you,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey here it is. And that’ll be $20,000, please. You know, I kind of feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this might be Apple thumbing their nose at us and saying, okay, you whined,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you complained, John Syracuse, for a decade, you complained, John Syracuse. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey here you go. That’ll be $20,000. And it’s amazing. Don’t get me wrong. It’s amazing,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it’s the cost of a car. I hope you’re happy now.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, Apple is so far, though, from that high end of the market. Like they’ve retreated so far into the consumer
⏹️ ▶️ John land that they’re just trying to get back in the game. And I don’t think you can come back in at the top. Like you can’t be charging people
⏹️ ▶️ John that even in the pro market who ostensibly could use that you can’t. You’re not they’re not going to trust you enough to
⏹️ ▶️ John give you that much money. I don’t think they even want that. Like Apple’s been whatever that that pro lab where
⏹️ ▶️ John they talk to the people and they say, what would you like that you’re not getting out of the iMac pro
⏹️ ▶️ John and the needs are going to be more than the iMac pro. you know, reliability, upgradability, all the other things or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re not gonna say what I need is like, you know, 75, the biggest CPUs in
⏹️ ▶️ John a giant box that goes in a closet. No one’s asking for that, and it’s just too big a leap from where they
⏹️ ▶️ John are. So I don’t think they’re gonna do that. It’s not the reason I think they’re not gonna do dual core. I think it’s just not the right trade-off
⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of like Marco said, like what do you get for that extra, incredible extra cost and heat
⏹️ ▶️ John and all the other compromises you have to make for it. You don’t get that much. I don’t think people are gonna be asking for it. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I don’t think Apple is going to go that way. Like if they did do a dual CPU option, if they’re successful
⏹️ ▶️ John and they return to the pro market after a few years, if it still makes sense to make that
⏹️ ▶️ John trade-off at all, I can imagine them introducing a dual core one, but A, I don’t think it’ll make sense. And
⏹️ ▶️ John B, I think they have a long way to go before they’re even in the position to give the big FU model.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like I don’t think they can get from where they are to there in one jump.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, honestly, and if they don’t do it in this generation of Mac Pro, they’re probably not going to do it before
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an ARM transition.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And that would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably change everything. Like, who knows what their needs would be.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then everything’s a CPU.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, exactly. You’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John got one in your keyboard. One runs a touch bar. There’s one that runs your computer. There’s one on the display.
⏹️ ▶️ John Just ARM, you open up the box, and ARM CPUs come out, just sprinkling down like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dust. Yeah, and for the record, I don’t think this will be an ARM computer. I don’t think they’re ready to do that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. It would be really cool if it was. That would be a really interesting, awesome story. but I don’t think it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite that time yet. But I do think this is most likely to be the last
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and only Intel Mac Pro left in them. Like whatever this is, like maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ll update it in 18 months for the next Xeon CPUs or whatever, but I don’t think there’s going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be another generation of Intel Mac Pro after this one. Anyway, so moving
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on to the GPU area.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we really doing this? Are we really gonna push the WWDC stuff to like the after show? This is really where this is going?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is WDC stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So moving on. GPUs, single or dual, are they upgradable?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And are they standard PCI Express GPU cards that you could just buy off of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Newegg or Amazon and stick in, maybe from a white listed, you know, list of whatever supported? Or are they like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco special Apple modules that only Apple can make and sell you or whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And how many are there? So. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know why you came up with that question. All right, I think I have a easy answer for that one. Support for
⏹️ ▶️ John dual GPUs, standard PCI slots, you didn’t ask, but not
⏹️ ▶️ John Nvidia. And what was the other question?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Single or dual Macs and then upgradable or not and upgradable with standard cards or special
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, upgradable standard cards with support for two of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I would agree with that. That I think would be the best outcome. I think that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what most people are asking for besides the Nvidia question, which I guess might be separate, but I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would satisfy the most people is replaceable, standard PCI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Express GPUs, supporting up to two of them. That being said, that again, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco modern GPUs use as much heat and stuff as modern CPUs do, so you are talking about a substantial
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thermal design here, and the question is, would the GPUs have just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco their own giant gaming coolers on them, like whatever, the giant heat sinks that modern GPUs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have on them taking up like the two slots, would they have that kind of thing? Or would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple want to do something a little nicer and more integrated and quieter and more powerful where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has their own custom cooling integration with maybe the whole rest of the system or something like that? So,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, some kind of more advanced cooling setup than just using the big ass fan that comes on the side of the graphics card.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That I think is a big question and that’s why I think maybe they wouldn’t support standard PCI Express
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cards. Because cooling and thermals are such a big challenge when you’re cooling, you know, when you have like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a sideways fan hanging off of a giant PCI Express card, wedge between, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco itself and another PCI Express card right next to it making its own heat, like that, it’s a very difficult
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cooling situation in there. And to try to do it without having just a loud fan,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think flies right in the face of using standard PCI cards.
⏹️ ▶️ John Modern GPU coolers are actually pretty amazing, you know, especially the good ones, but they use
⏹️ ▶️ John very large fans, like very large diameter fans, they’re just like giant water wheels. And there is enough room
⏹️ ▶️ John to get a fairly quiet one in there to eject the air out sideways. That said,
⏹️ ▶️ John I really wished for the entire life of Apple’s pro computers up to the trash can that Apple did more custom coolers,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they didn’t. They put these crappy like OEM GPU cooler fans
⏹️ ▶️ John blowing in some random direction. They relied on the 17 fans in the cheese grater to just shove all that
⏹️ ▶️ John air out the back anyway, no matter what the thing does. But those fans would go bad, they would get noisy,
⏹️ ▶️ John that didn’t do a very good job cooling. The trash can was actually theoretically an upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ John in that area because it had one big fan that was supposed to handle everything and no separate weird GPU coolers.
⏹️ ▶️ John It turns out that one fan wasn’t enough to do the job and the GPUs would overheat. So, you know, oops, Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ John bad. But I like the thought. But I think you can have standard replaceable cards
⏹️ ▶️ John that just happen to come with coolers that are Apple designed. I really hope that’s true. That Apple designed coolers that
⏹️ ▶️ John come with Apple’s cards, whether you buy one or two of them, that are quiet and efficient and
⏹️ ▶️ John integrate with the cooling. Not because they’re like part of the whole system, but just because the airflow
⏹️ ▶️ John was designed with those coolers in mind. And then when you buy a third party one, they’ll have to find a way to integrate. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s the only reasonable path.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, upgradable RAM, I think is a pretty safe bet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. What about upgradable SSD modules? No.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What? You really think so? See, I think no, because the T2-based
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Macs, they all have this custom pairing for encryption and everything between the modules and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the T2, so that’s why I think they’re probably gonna continue down that same path. There is a question about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether there might be a slot for more SSD modules, whatever the M2, whatever the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slots are for SSDs these days. There might be a couple of those in there, that would be nice. Even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, I think, is unlikely. I think they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to leave the disk expansion up to external only. And I hope they don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I bet it’s going to be like two modules inside the case, just like the iMac Pro uses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco two modules in parallel. I’m guessing it’s two modules inside and you’re on your own for anything else after that. And they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not and they’re not upgradable.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What if what if it’s not that? So I think that what you just said about externally,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, upgradable makes the most sense without without doubt. But what if it’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of in the middle where it is upgradeable but you have to bring
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it in? What just went through that? There was like you could upgrade the RAM in something but it wasn’t user serviceable or something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like that? I think it’s the Mac Mini. Yes, yes, you’re right. That’s what it was. That’s what it was. Thank you. The Mac Mini, I believe the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey RAM is upgradeable without, you know, destroying the machine but you have to bring it to Apple to do it or so they say. What
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it’s one of those scenarios with the SSDs where, yes, they will sell you a heinously overpriced SSD
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you have to give your computer to Apple to do it, but they should be able to do so without utterly destroying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your entire machine.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think the best case scenario for the internal storage is that Apple sells you the computer and
⏹️ ▶️ John lets you pick how much storage is in it. And as far as Apple is concerned, it’s not upgradable, but if you actually look inside the
⏹️ ▶️ John machine, physically speaking, you can take it out and put a different module there
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and then, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, other world computing or whoever finds a way to sell you a thing that will fit in that
⏹️ ▶️ John slot and give you some kind of procedure to sync it up with the encryption and you know, like kind of like unofficially upgradable.
⏹️ ▶️ John But like, honestly, I feel like the regular internal storage
⏹️ ▶️ John is not, you know, I again, think of what pro users might might want. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John think they’re big about upgrading that in terms of like, oh, when the computer gets old, we’ll just upgrade the internal storage. I think their question
⏹️ ▶️ John is, what are my storage options for the computer? And those are mostly external, I don’t rule
⏹️ ▶️ John out the ability to add internal storage, but I feel like the sort of built-in boot disk
⏹️ ▶️ John storage that you get is going to look a lot like the storage on the iMac does today.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s not soldered in either, right? It’s two little modules, but it’s just because the iMac is not particularly friendly
⏹️ ▶️ John to open up, there hasn’t been a big market for aftermarket SSDs for the iMac Pro, if that would
⏹️ ▶️ John even be possible. But assuming this thing is easy to open up, and assuming the storage does look like the iMac
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, it’s potential for a third party for it to upgrade that. And the only remaining question is, is there
⏹️ ▶️ John any place inside this case besides that place where you can put storage? And I’m not entirely willing to rule that
⏹️ ▶️ John out. I mean, especially if you just get it with one GPU, you got a PCI slot. So there’s, you know, you could buy
⏹️ ▶️ John a PCI card with SSDs on it for sure.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, that would, yeah, that’s true. If we do have standard PCI slots, which I sure hope we do,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would actually be really nice. Yeah, you’re right. Do we think just two disk modules to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco start or four? Like maybe like one way they can differentiate in the iMac Pro is by upping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the disk bandwidth even more. And so you could run four M.2 SSDs in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco parallel. I mean, I’ve gotta figure, all this stuff, we’re gonna be very limited by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco PCI Express lanes and stuff like that, so I don’t even know if they can offer all this and support dual GPUs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything else, but maybe they have more modules.
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t afford four modules
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco at Apple’s SSD prices,
⏹️ ▶️ John so I’m gonna go with two.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, so speaking of price, My final question for the Mac Pro predictions, starting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco price. What is the cheapest one you can get? Keeping in mind that the iMac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco starts at $5,000 for a pretty decent configuration. That’s one terabyte, eight core, 32 gigs of RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So iMac Pro starts at 5,000, but includes a screen built in. So what do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you think for starting price?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will be stunned if it’s less than 7,500 bucks. What? No, that’s too high. I think,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m telling you. It’s going to be a fortune. Price is right rules. You’ve gone over. One dollar.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Uh-huh. No, I really think this is going to be a frickin fortune. I take your point about it not including
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a screen. I really believe that this thing it will be amazing. I’m not doubting that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I think it will be just prohibitively expensive and this is coming from someone who buys
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot of expensive Apple stuff. Like I think it’s just going to be insanely expensive.
⏹️ ▶️ John If they had a stripper model, they could offer a machine for $3999. Hold on, hold
⏹️ ▶️ John on, sorry, a what? Stripper. It’s a car terminology.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like it’s the
⏹️ ▶️ John model with the cloth seats and the manual windows and no AC and no radio.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s the way John likes to buy cars.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not how I buy cars at all. Mm-hmm. But they’re not going
⏹️ ▶️ John to have a stripper model for this, so I think the starting price will be $4999. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually agree. I think the iMac Pro, they spec’d
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it up to 1TB and 32GB of RAM minimum so that they could price it at $5,000. Because the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco upgrades, they cost Apple a lot less than they cost us. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they did that for a reason. But I don’t think they could really start the Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco higher than $5,000. Because you’ll be able to configure it up to some crazy amounts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You might be able to figure it out for $20,000 for all we know, if you spec up everything to the craziest amounts. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the base price, because keep in mind the current Mac Pro, the base price is $3,000. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s still a price increase, a substantial one at that. But I think it’ll probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco come specced similarly to the iMac Pro, if not more, higher specced. And I’m thinking $5,000.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I think you guys, you probably convinced me. I still think it’s going to be just hilariously expensive, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re probably right. I do like the the God help me. I do like the synergy of having
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this start at about the same cost without the screen. So it’s actually quite a bit more expensive.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, I see your point, and I think that makes sense.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re probably going to Apple Arcade us, though, you know, even if they have a teaser for this thing, there’s no reason they need to tell us the price.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, no, I well, they might tell us the starting price. I think they did with the iMac
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro, didn’t they? Didn’t they tell us the starting?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, if it’s shipping in December, there can be more details later. Like, you know, we’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Depends on how much
⏹️ ▶️ John of a teaser it is versus a very long pre-announcement. Six months from now, you’ll be able to buy this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or they’ll blow right by it. Like, remember when the Apple Watch was announced way earlier than its launch and they blew
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right by the edition pricing?
⏹️ ▶️ John Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s true. Every Mac Pro is an edition. a
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco We should talk about our other WBDC predictions. Honestly, I don’t have that much that hasn’t been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rumored. Like I, I, I, the Mac pro I think is the most interesting part for our show and there’s There’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a million other podcasts giving more accurate predictions about software changes and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all this stuff. And I don’t actually think we’re gonna see any more hardware besides the display in the Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I guess that’s one. So one question is, do you think we’re gonna see, say, the 16-inch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Pro previewed? And I’m thinking no.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’ve been thinking no ever since they pre-announced things, but I keep going back and forth. Like, my gut instinct is no. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole reason that they did the speed bump before, the thing is just basically to tell you, the 16-inch isn’t ready, so
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t bother. I mean, it’s just fine, like that makes perfect sense. But if they’re already pre-announcing
⏹️ ▶️ John a computer that’s gonna ship in December maybe, it would be super neat and get a lot of buzz even
⏹️ ▶️ John if it wasn’t available to purchase. In theory, it wouldn’t kill sales of the 15 inch because it’s like a
⏹️ ▶️ John different, newer thing and it would be potentially more expensive because Apple loves introducing new models that are more expensive than
⏹️ ▶️ John the existing ones. Seems highly unlikely to me, but I always, like it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John Christmas Eve, you always like, you think about what it would be like if you got everything you wanted. Like imagine
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco if they had a Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John Teaser and the 16-inch and it’s got a new keyboard and none of them are available to buy, but you’d just be jazzed about them,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Seems highly unlikely, but I’m not willing to entirely rule it out because I
⏹️ ▶️ John think Mike brought this up on the recent upgrade. Like, it doesn’t, you know, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John nothing about what Apple has released that would make it awkward for them to introduce
⏹️ ▶️ John a 16-inch, a totally new form factor 16-inch. Like it’s differentiated enough within
⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s not shipping now, It’s a totally different computer and it’s like a different size screen, even if it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John just the screen and not the overall size, that they could survive that and say, well, but why’d you just
⏹️ ▶️ John introduce this 15 inch? I feel bad. It’s like, well, the 16 inch is a different thing. Again, seems
⏹️ ▶️ John highly unlikely, but I’m unable to banish it from my mind as the
⏹️ ▶️ John amazing fantasy of how great this WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could go. Yeah, me too. Like, I can’t say it definitely won’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happen. I can’t say, oh, that’s, you know, they would never do that. Because they might do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. Because of all the reasons you said, they might actually still tell us about it. Even though it doesn’t seem like it’s shipping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anytime soon, and even though they just updated the MacBook Pro, they still might.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s, you know, it’s not out of the question. But anyway, so I actually, I had another idea for kind of how we could
⏹️ ▶️ Marco structure this part if you guys are up for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Wait, hold on, hold on. I just had an epiphany. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would like to steal a connected term and I will do my risky pick. I’m gonna do it right up front. I know we’re not scoring
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever, but I would like to put on record a risky pick that I will regret later. I don’t think we’re gonna see a
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh! Why would you be that person?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, God! Why? Why do you hate fun? Let me just take this knife out of my back. I think this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no. Well, first of all, you started it, sir. But secondly, the reason I say
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is I want there to be a Mac Pro Teaser, despite despite
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the fact that I will not be able to get a word in edgewise in this podcast for six months, I do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey want there to be a Mac Pro teaser or hell, maybe even a release. I mean, if we’re going crazy, let’s get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey crazy. But I wonder if there’s so much software
⏹️ ▶️ Casey stuff, all of the leftovers from 2018 that got pushed to 19,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of the stuff that was was originally slated for 19, hopefully most of which made it. That’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey big, long, busy keynote. Additionally,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is impossible to please nerds. I can assure you that. I have lived
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it for years. It is impossible to please nerds. And the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only way I think Apple gets away with a Mac Pro announcement
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of any sort, probably a teaser is by not announcing a price
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I really think the price is going to put off a lot of people, which it shouldn’t because this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is obviously going to be the crazy, you know, we spared no expense,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s a reference, John, we spared no expense computer, but I think it’ll still be an
⏹️ ▶️ Casey off-putting price. So if they don’t put the price in, everyone’s going to complain and say,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, it’s surely too expensive because Apple and nobody’s going to want to buy this, nobody will be able to to buy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this because it’ll be too expensive. They put the price in, oh, it is too expensive. You know, nobody’s going to buy this. And in so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey many ways, it’s okay, it’s not modular like we thought it was, or oh, it’s modular but not the way we want.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, there’s only one GP. You know, it’s going to be nitpick to death. And if the rest of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey conference feels like such a home run to Apple, which I think it does, why
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would you throw this risky teaser in?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I can answer that question, right? And the three of us have answered that question and I still think they should do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it but I can see I can work I can balance this math equation in such
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a way that them teasing it just doesn’t make sense.
⏹️ ▶️ John The only thing we know about modern Apple though is that regardless of what their internal monologue
⏹️ ▶️ John might be personified as a company when they introduce a product
⏹️ ▶️ John what they project is that they think this product is great So
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey whether it is or not,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? So the doubts about like, oh, but what if they don’t like the Mac Pro? They
⏹️ ▶️ John think everyone’s going to like the Mac Pro. They think whatever the issues were, they fixed them. Like it’s the whole point.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like they’re they’re proud. They may be nervous about how it’s received. Yada, yada, yada. But like, I feel like they’re.
⏹️ ▶️ John When they do an intro, they would never hold off on introducing the thing because they’re afraid people might not like it. It’s always
⏹️ ▶️ John like, well, this is great. I mean, hell, they thought everyone would love the touch bar. Like it’s just, that’s what they put
⏹️ ▶️ John out. Whether that’s internally what they’re thinking, the presentation is, we think these are the best laptops
⏹️ ▶️ John ever. Look at this amazing touch bar, so on and so forth. And they will give the exact same message to the Mac Pro. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I also told Tim Cook through our friend Jason Snell that he can make it a one more thing. I’m okay with that.
⏹️ ▶️ John So you do the whole thing, you do all the Mars, Japan stuff. Like everyone’s super excited, all the new
⏹️ ▶️ John OS features, everything we’ve talked about, it’s just all amazing. You can mix AppKit and UIKit in a single application.
⏹️ ▶️ John and look at all these things we’ve ported and it’s just amazing and all the iOS developers are going crazy and there’s one more
⏹️ ▶️ John thing and it’s my Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This specifically says John Syracuse
⏹️ ▶️ John front. I’ve already planned the keynote, that’s how it’s gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey go. Yeah, so I
⏹️ ▶️ John feel like the only question was, you know, the 16 inch laptop. Is there any more hardware stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John that is a blip on anyone’s radar, anyone?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, the MacBook 12 inch is due for an update, the Escape is due for an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco update, but I don’t think we’re getting those. No time for that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, sorry, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably gonna be unimportant. So actually, so I had a quick idea, like I have a list of things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here that I think are at risk for not being mentioned at all,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from most likely to not be mentioned at all, to more risky. I’m curious
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get your read. What do you think out of this list will not be mentioned at all during the keynote?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is keynote only, not State of the Union, keynote only. Number one, I think the most likely, easiest pick,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco messages apps. Like the apps that you can make for iMessage. Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s punching down. Yeah, we’re gonna hear
⏹️ ▶️ John nothing about those, right? That’s an interesting question because like one of the possible
⏹️ ▶️ John announcements is cross-platform iMessage, which is probably low probability, but it’s always out there every year.
⏹️ ▶️ John If they did cross-platform iMessage and if third-party iMessage applications
⏹️ ▶️ John are still a thing, they would have to mention them as part of that segment. I think they may show
⏹️ ▶️ John iMessage applications, But that’s different than reminding people that this is a place where you
⏹️ ▶️ John can make applications. So it’s separate from like, let’s remind you that we have a
⏹️ ▶️ John platform where you can message applications versus we have some new applications to show you, or whatever. So I think
⏹️ ▶️ John they will probably not remind us that messages applications is a thing unless they’re significantly enhanced. But I think there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John pretty, even odds that we will see one or more messages
⏹️ ▶️ John applications being used in the keynote.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But see, that won’t count. I’m talking about actually mentioning. And not even a tiny word
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on one of the word cloud slides. That doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John count. Oh, the word cloud slides, if it’s enhanced. If they’ve enhanced it,
⏹️ ▶️ John now message applications can do this thing that they couldn’t do before. That goes on a word slide for sure,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they did that at all. Right, but this is what I’m saying. I don’t think we’ll even see that. But anyway, all right. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco moving on, a little bit riskier now. TVOS. You think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco TVOS is getting mentioned in the keynote? Yes,
⏹️ ▶️ John absolutely. What are they going to say about it that they haven’t? I don’t know. They’ll say something,
⏹️ ▶️ John though. I mean, it depends on how much of a services recap they have time for,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco surely there will be some
⏹️ ▶️ John form of services recap of talking about their
⏹️ ▶️ Marco various pluses. This is why this is tricky, right? Because they’re going to want to mention the TV app, and they’re going to want to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mention the Apple Arcade, that games run on all the platforms, right? So it’s tricky,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gets mentioned. See, I’m saying no to iMessage apps. I think I’m also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying no to tvOS, but it’s a riskier pick for sure. All right, getting a little bit harder now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’ll get mentioned as this works with the HomePod. I don’t think it’ll get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mentioned in the sense of, look at the new things the HomePod can do.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think anyone will say the word HomePod.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No, I’m talking like
⏹️ ▶️ John verbal versus slide. I’m willing to believe there will be a picture of a HomePod on a slide and the word HomePod
⏹️ ▶️ John on a slide, I give it a 50-50 chance of a human being saying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco HomePod. Yeah, I’m gonna say the HomePod is not mentioned in the keynote.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, getting more risky now.
⏹️ ▶️ John Siri. Definitely mentioned. Yeah. They’re always mentioning Siri, whether
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s better or not. It’s going to
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco be mentioned.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I guess they use the word Siri to describe any kind of on-device learning thing also.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri found these photos for you. I guess you’re right. All right. More specifically, shortcuts.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah. They’re super proud of shortcuts and everybody likes them. Why wouldn’t they mention
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it? Even if they haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ John done anything, they’re going to mention it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. I think so, too. All right. Now, here’s one I think will be very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey AR. Oh, it’s their catnip these days. Of
⏹️ ▶️ John course. They can’t get through three slides without mentioning AR. What do you think? Yep. The question is, are they going to have an AR table?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco AR table or not? It has been their cat name for a few years now, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think at this event there’s gonna be so much else that they might wanna save AR stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the fall event where they introduce new hardware. Like, AR goes better with, like, here’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new iPhone or whatever that does new AR crap. I actually think there’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco solid chance they won’t mention AR at all during this keynote.
⏹️ ▶️ John They did the ARKit enhancements. That’s gonna get a one-word mention and it will get expanded in the State of the Union.
⏹️ ▶️ John Until and unless they can the glasses project, like either they release the glasses or can the project, they’re going to keep
⏹️ ▶️ John mentioning AR. Because they keep enhancing ARKit. ARKit will be enhanced. There will be sessions on it. It will be mentioned in the State of
⏹️ ▶️ John the Union. I think it will get a single mention in the keynote. And if they have an AR table, like, well, no. When we sit down,
⏹️ ▶️ John we see a giant table, it’s like, all right. Get ready for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco demo. Yep, lost that bet. I’m actually voting no on AR. I bet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t get mentioned at all.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’ll at least get mentioned. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was a demo. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m being a little hypocritical, right? Because I just made this big passionate speech about how there’s not gonna be any time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for anything during this keynote and they’re gonna have to cut the Mac Pro, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, they just fricking love AR. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John so untoward. There’s always time to mention it. Like, you know, you can, yeah. There
⏹️ ▶️ John are ARKit enhancements exist that will be mentioned.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, and last one, which I think is the riskiest to evaluate, watchOS.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You don’t think that there would be a mention?
⏹️ ▶️ John How do you get out of this keynote without mentioning, without talking about watchOS? I don’t know how you, that’s. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I know you’re pessimistic about watchOS, you’re pessimistic about WatchKit, but there is a new watchOS.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s going to have like new watch faces. They’re going to mention watchOS.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe, but what if, you know, like new watch faces, there’s not much for developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do there. that would be very likely saved for a fall event when there’s new watches. If
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the focus of the OS, like if it’s a pretty quiet year on that front and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really packed keynote, maybe that might slip to the State of the Union.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, there’s gonna be W2C sessions on watchOS. Like you’re assuming this is not the year that we get basically UI
⏹️ ▶️ John kit for the watch? Like is that, I haven’t been following those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rumors. I don’t think, I mean, there aren’t that many rumors about the watch in general, but I’m pretty sure that’s not happening this year. So I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, so I’m talking about just being mentioned in the keynote. My rationale here,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think watchOS probably will be mentioned in the keynote, but I think it’s definitely worth considering because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is gonna be such a jam-packed keynote with everything else, and it doesn’t seem like there’s that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much this year for watchOS that would be relevant to developers, enough to make it into a very packed keynote.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t think you can get out of the keynote without mentioning watchOS. I think that’s a pretty sure thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Yeah, I think you’re right, but it’s definitely worth thinking about. All right, I’m done. I also had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook Pro on here, but we already answered that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and so there’s no other hardware on the software. Like, again, we don’t have to cover all the things, you know, new versions of iOS, macOS.
⏹️ ▶️ John We don’t have to go into details on the individual features. Like, there’s been so many rumors and leaks
⏹️ ▶️ John about it. I don’t think we have time to speculate about what the new iPad situation will be like. They’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John kept that stuff under wraps. We’ll all just be surprised, but we know that’s gonna be a big feature. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I think this is a solid keynote. Like, just for like the three or four
⏹️ ▶️ John pillars of just the iPad enhancements, Marzipan,
⏹️ ▶️ John and the new iOS stuff, just the new iOS stuff that we already know about.
⏹️ ▶️ John The thing about Marzipan is it spans iOS and the Mac, so it lets you talk more about the Mac and it lets
⏹️ ▶️ John you talk more about iOS kind of at the same time. Depends on how hard they wanna
⏹️ ▶️ John pitch the unification model, right? Obviously that’s more of state of the union stuff, showing how you can mix AppKit and
⏹️ ▶️ John UIKit and if you can do that and all that other stuff. but just that stuff, basic touching
⏹️ ▶️ John on the new features of our platforms, the Marzipan story and the iPad story, and then one more thing,
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware tees for a product that most people aren’t gonna buy, but that I think most people are excited about even if they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna buy it. That’s a good WWDC hint right there. And there’s always room for some
⏹️ ▶️ John weird thing that hasn’t even been rumored, right? Like a location tile thing, I guess that’s been rumored, but like
⏹️ ▶️ John just something like that, if say we hadn’t heard of it, there’s always room for a little wild card like that. I mean, heck, sometimes they have
⏹️ ▶️ John people bringing up like remote control cars on stage. You never know
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey what’s going to happen at one of these keynotes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Didn’t they just fold
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that company?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah, that’s kind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of sad. Yeah, they did.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did. So what do you think that my final question to you guys is how do you think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey marzipan will be approached? Because I think it’s a given that there’s going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some sort of update about it you know since they introduced it last year they’re going to want
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have a touch point to use business crap lingo but they’re gonna want to talk
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it again and what do you think the presentation will be? Because I can see this being as simple as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know oh you know, maybe messages is now, well, they’re not going to call it Marspan, but messages is now Marspan
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and otherwise basically, you know, business as usual. Or it could be as much as like, look at all the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that this is already doing for the Mac and look at how the Mac is now
⏹️ ▶️ Casey influencing iOS because in order to get UIKit to support thing, that made it easier
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for us to support that same thing on iOS, like a pointer, for example, I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you think that they’re going to lean heavily into it? Do you think it’s going to be kind of the 50,000
⏹️ ▶️ Casey foot view of what’s going on? Like, how do you feel this is going to be pitched, Marco? And then I’d
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like to ask John after.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think Marzipan is going to be the story of the year. I think they’re going to pitch it very heavily.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s going to take up a lot of the time, or at least a lot of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantive talking time, if you exclude like, you know, videos and crap. I think it’s going to be a major
⏹️ ▶️ Marco focus of the keynote and of the conference and of the next year, because it is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco such a big ordeal. Marzipan is not one API
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that some people might get used from, like what Siri intents were last year. It’s way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger than that. It’s so much more. It is such a huge undertaking that involves
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tons of changes to both the Mac and to iOS and to all the underlying UIKit frameworks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything. And who knows if there is an AppKit story here, but regardless, there is so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much that is touched by this. There’s so much that’s changed by Marzipan that I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they will talk about it, it will be pushed very hard, it’ll be celebrated as like, look at how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great this is, look at how much progress we have made, and now how much progress you all can make with your apps, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of thing. And, little wild card prediction here, I think they’re actually going to call
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it Marzipan. Interesting.
⏹️ ▶️ John So a little faith in Apple’s ability to come up with new names. They’re like, well, just go with the code name. You’re not gonna come up with anything
⏹️ ▶️ John better and you’ll probably just embarrass yourself. So just go
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco with the Jaguar
⏹️ ▶️ John strategy. Yeah, no, I agree with Marco. It’s going to be the biggest story.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think, you know, if all goes well, I feel like they’re pitching it as this is
⏹️ ▶️ John the future of developing for Apple’s platforms. Now, they can’t lay out the whole plan now. They’re not gonna tell
⏹️ ▶️ John you their three-year plan for it. But imagine a presentation where that’s what Apple is thinking the entire time
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re presenting it. It will probably mostly be presented about, You know, the story that I think, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John my original discussion and take on Mars abandonment on the very first show where we talked
⏹️ ▶️ John about it is that there is an untapped resource of tons of really skilled
⏹️ ▶️ John developers who know UI kit. Uh, now, you know, Apple’s perspective, we can get them to develop
⏹️ ▶️ John for the Mac and the developers perspective. Now I can target a new platform with skills that I already have.
⏹️ ▶️ John That is probably the main message that’s going to be there. And Apple’s apps, instead
⏹️ ▶️ John of them telling us what they’ve ported, will be, as they always are, demonstrations of what
⏹️ ▶️ John you can do, right? Apple tends not to lean heavily on
⏹️ ▶️ John the things that benefit it. Apple being able to
⏹️ ▶️ John put all the wood behind the arrow and not have a split strategy internally is an incredibly important
⏹️ ▶️ John aspect of Mars is Ban, but they maybe will touch on that briefly, allude
⏹️ ▶️ John to it, you know, like in a in a subtle way. Mostly they’re going to be talking
⏹️ ▶️ John about what you, the developers are now able to do. You have these skills. You have this knowledge.
⏹️ ▶️ John We have this great framework. These platforms used to be very different from each
⏹️ ▶️ John other. From your perspective now, they’re much more similar. Like that’s that’s the story. Marzipan
⏹️ ▶️ John is the story of WWDC unless, you know, secondarily, unless you’re teaching the iOS
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff for the iPad. But the biggest developer story is it’s like the biggest developer story.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the biggest developer story since Swift, basically. It’s like Swift, then a bunch of other stuff happened then marzipan.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say it’s way bigger than Swift. Way
⏹️ ▶️ John bigger. I think it’s about even because like Swift was run in the same way
⏹️ ▶️ John as in like, they didn’t present it as here’s this cool experiment we’re thinking about. They presented it from day one as
⏹️ ▶️ John like, this is the new language for apples platforms. And we forced all of our presenters to have Swift on all their
⏹️ ▶️ John slides and people were like, what, you know, and objectively, but they forced everyone to have Swift on all the slides.
⏹️ ▶️ John And like, they were faking it till they were making it. Like, it was clear what they wanted
⏹️ ▶️ John to happen with Swift, but even in, you know, on day zero, they were like, Swift,
⏹️ ▶️ John the future of development on Apple’s platforms, whether you are ready for it or not,
⏹️ ▶️ John and whether we’re ready for it or not. And they have been executing on that strategy ever since. I think it is
⏹️ ▶️ John pretty big because not only is it a complete language change across all their platforms, but it was an entirely
⏹️ ▶️ John new language. It wasn’t just like they switched to another language. So Swift is pretty big. And Marzipan,
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, depending on like the three-year plan may be bigger than Swift, but what they started out with now
⏹️ ▶️ John is, I think it’s an even footing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, Marzipan, Swift is something that, like Swift is a developer tool. It’s a fancy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco large-scale developer tool, but it’s a developer tool. It can result in apps being built better
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or more efficiently or, you know, whatever, but it ultimately really only benefits developers. Marzipan
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is huge for developers in different ways than Swift. Like, Marzipan changes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco major business realities for developers. That’s, I think, a way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco larger type of change. Like, you know, it’s not gonna be an everyday kind of change, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco merging markets together. Like, that’s a huge business shift for developers.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But more importantly, marzipan will have massive value to users.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, your users don’t give a crap what language your app is written, and they don’t even usually know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they certainly don’t care. And, like, if I converted my entire app to Swift over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the next year, nobody would care, nobody would notice. Nothing, nothing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, you would. But, like, nothing meaningful would be significantly better for my users.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Whereas, marzipan is both a huge change for developers, and I think for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the better, and also provides massive value, hopefully, to users. Because it’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bring all this amazing software from iOS much more easily to the Mac, and so the Mac will just have a lot more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco software than it’s had before. That’s huge for users. That’s why I think this is way, way bigger
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than changing a language that is something that really only affects developers, and honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco frankly, not even that much.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was judging them from the perspective of developers. This is a developer conference. there’s lots of changes that have affected
⏹️ ▶️ John users in unexpected ways, but I think there’s a disconnection between how much it affects users
⏹️ ▶️ John and how much it affects developers. Like, you should think about the population of
⏹️ ▶️ John applications available for the Mac with the Mac OS X transition
⏹️ ▶️ John and with the introduction of Cocoa and with the sort of, you know, the deprecation of Carbon.
⏹️ ▶️ John A lot of those changes have really affected the Mac ecosystem. Just give one example. having
⏹️ ▶️ John AppKit available and bringing over like the those next developers
⏹️ ▶️ John and that the few people who got into, you know, the Cocoa world seems like, like technologically,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not that big of a deal. And developer wise is like, well, I’m not sure how this is going to go. But it, it, it was one of the
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of mini Mac OS X renaissances where all of a sudden we had a bunch of new applications
⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, we knew them as like the new Cocoa applications or the
⏹️ ▶️ John applications made by next developers or the Omni stuff or Net Newswire, like just a certain crop of applications
⏹️ ▶️ John made possible by an API that already existed and a language that already existed. But
⏹️ ▶️ John if you were a Mac user during that time, if we had like a raced Cocoa and you were a Mac user during that time and you were forced to only use carbon
⏹️ ▶️ John applications, you would have been sad and it would have been a very different era. But technologically
⏹️ ▶️ John speaking, like it’s not like they introduced a major new thing. It
⏹️ ▶️ John wasn’t like they invented a new language, an entire new API or whatever. Whereas, Marzipan
⏹️ ▶️ John is bringing an API that is entirely new to the Mac. UIKit had nothing to do with the Mac for
⏹️ ▶️ John the longest time. So I feel like it’s a big technological change. How that affects users
⏹️ ▶️ John remains to be seen. They will get shovelware. There will be applications that don’t behave like Mac applications.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You have that now. You have shovelware and non-Mac-like applications today.
⏹️ ▶️ John Electron and stuff like that, right. But I feel like there’s a disconnect. So when I’m judging the significance of events
⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of things that have been announced to WWDC, I’m judging it entirely from the perspective of developers
⏹️ ▶️ John and the technical underpinnings of the application, right? So Mac OS X was a big change, but
⏹️ ▶️ John the slow dominance of Cocoa was not a thing they even announced to WWDC, it’s just a thing that slowly
⏹️ ▶️ John happened, but that had a huge effect on users. So similarly, I feel like, yes, of course, Mars is gonna have a huge
⏹️ ▶️ John effect on users, but that’s not why it’s a big deal. It’s a big deal because it’s the first step towards the unification
⏹️ ▶️ John of all of Apple’s platforms under a not a single
⏹️ ▶️ John top level framework, but much closer to a single top level framework than we have ever been before. Because
⏹️ ▶️ John we got rid of carbon and Cocoa can be subsumed, absorbed by UIKit.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then it just becomes variants of UIKits across all of their platforms. Like that’s the end
⏹️ ▶️ John state. And I feel like Swift is as big an announcement as that from the perspective of the developer.
⏹️ ▶️ John From the perspective of users, it’s hard to tell. Obviously Swift didn’t affect them at all. marzipan
⏹️ ▶️ John is going to affect them a lot. But lots of things have affected users a lot that have just not that been been
⏹️ ▶️ John that significant. So I don’t know if you want to sum up user and developer, I’ll give it to marzipan.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I still feel like Swift is very big deal.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we stop all I’m ahead. Thank you for our sponsors this week, ExpressVPN, Jamf Now and Mobile
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Lux and we will talk to you next week live at WBDC.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can find the show notes at atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you’re into Twitter,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John mean to, accidental, tech podcast so long.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ve heard a few of our friends, in particular Mike Hurley and Stephen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hackett over at the Relay area, we have heard them mention a few times
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on recent podcasts that they are interested in buying the new Mac Pro and keeping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it for 10 years and being able to upgrade it and everything and basically have the same computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco upgraded slowly for 10
⏹️ ▶️ John years. It’s like they’ve never listened of this program.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And so I wanted to both mention this to provide my skepticism
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the reality of this and also to ask John as the owner
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and user of a 10 year old computer to describe to them what this experience
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like. My theory is that they would never make it anywhere near 10 years.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh god no. Absolutely not. When you’re holding on to an old computer, even if it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as as upgradable as the old cheese graters were, which I don’t think it will be. Like, as we mentioned earlier,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we think the GPUs will probably be upgradable, the RAM will probably be upgradable, but the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco SSDs probably won’t, CPUs probably won’t, or at least only within
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the little narrow family of whatever CPUs were available at the time. Like, you could put in another member of the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco family, same generation, but not the next year’s model. So CPUs are not that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco upgradable. RAM, you know, yes. Disks, maybe. But also, like, other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff about it, like the speed of its ports, the type of its ports, not really,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco either not upgradable at all, or only minimally upgradable maybe later via PCI cards.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so, and even that I think is optimistic for a new Mac Pro. So, the reality is, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you use a 10-year-old computer, you have not only, like, 10-year-old performance,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you also have 10-year-old limitations on what kinds of things you can even plug into that computer,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that kind of thing that doesn’t tend to be upgradable very easily. Like for instance, even if you have the 2013 Mac Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those are Thunderbolt 2 or 1 ports on that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is USB 3, but it can’t drive a display over a certain resolution and everything else. If you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a cheese grater Mac Pro, which is the actual 10 year old ones these days, You have USB 2
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ports, not USB 3, unless you’ve added them via a PCI card. You have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no Thunderbolt at all, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Nice. It’s not on mine, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sure. Yeah, yeah, like Thunderbolt never came to the cheese grater. I’ve got FireWire ported to the front of mine. Yeah, yeah, you have FireWire
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and USB, FireWire 800 and USB 2 is what you have for a 10-year-old computer. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I don’t think the idea of somebody buying, like somebody like us who’s like really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into this kind of thing, buying a Mac Pro, justifying it’s probably very high price by saying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll last us 10 years, I don’t think that’s realistic at all. But John, you are the one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of us who has actually done this. So what do you think about this concept?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, first of all, this is silly because this is gonna be an arm transition
⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s no way in hell that you can keep a computer with
⏹️ ▶️ John CPU. It’s like, that’s a degree of difficulty that even I could get up to. And
⏹️ ▶️ John all these people always wanna get new things anyway. But here’s the thing, like, especially for the Mac, it’s not just about a computer for 10
⏹️ ▶️ John years, It’s about a top of the line pro computer for 10 years. Top of the line pro computers
⏹️ ▶️ John have compromises that make sense when you first get them. They’re big,
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re hot, they have all sorts of ports and wires poking out of them and everything
⏹️ ▶️ John that you can convince yourself are the right compromises for you or that you’re willing to live with
⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s the biggest and baddest computer. But as it stops being the biggest and baddest computer, the
⏹️ ▶️ John desire to replace it with like a Mac mini or like a 12 inch MacBook,
⏹️ ▶️ John all of which end up being faster than it, would be irresistible, let alone replacing it by like what you really
⏹️ ▶️ John should have got anyway, which is an iMac Pro, which these people already have. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think they would have the will to keep it. I don’t think they should keep it. And there’ll be so many much
⏹️ ▶️ John more tempting options as the thing ages. Even I wouldn’t have kept this computer that long
⏹️ ▶️ John if I didn’t have lots of mitigating factors, like my specific needs, but also the fact that, you know, my wife has a
⏹️ ▶️ John 5K iMac, and I have had access to modern Macs. You won’t be able to run the most recent OS, forget
⏹️ ▶️ John about it, you can plug into it, you won’t even be able to run the most recent OS, you won’t even, like I can’t sync my notes
⏹️ ▶️ John to this computer anymore if the notes use features that aren’t available in this version of notes. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it just, it stops being functional. Like even if you stop upgrading the software on it,
⏹️ ▶️ John it stops working with all the rest of your stuff. So there are so many reasons to act against
⏹️ ▶️ John them so they won’t do that. So if anyone is thinking of buying a computer and saying, well, I can justify the price because I’ll use this
⏹️ ▶️ John for 10 years, you won’t. Like, the time to use a computer for 10 years was starting in 2008 like I did.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is the wrong time to use a Mac for 10 years. You’re not gonna make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. You barely made it. Yeah. And you had to do a lot of upgrades. Like, I think one thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that held you over significantly was that during your 10 years, the SSD revolution
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happened. And that made a huge performance jump. Like, you know, a 10-year-old computer had hard drives in it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like, you know, adding SSDs, that helped a lot. You’ve also upgraded the GPU in that time. You’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco upgraded the RAM, of course, the disks. Like, you know, you’ve done a lot of upgrades over time,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of which are factors that I don’t think will be upgradable on the new Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and the thing is like, the performance, and you know, setting aside the SSD thing, like we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John on SSD now. Your 10-year-old computer performance-wise, that won’t be your problem. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John especially if parts of it are upgradable, but like, even if it just never gets any faster, things are fast
⏹️ ▶️ John enough at the baseline that your 10 year old Mac Pro, performance is not the reason you’ll want
⏹️ ▶️ John to abandon it. It will be because you can get better performance in a way smaller, lighter, cheaper,
⏹️ ▶️ John simpler, better, able to support modern, like you’ll be able to get a better computer
⏹️ ▶️ John for less money. So there’ll be no reason to keep dealing with this behemoth
⏹️ ▶️ John when you know you could just, it may even be the case, and in market use experiences, may even be the
⏹️ ▶️ John case that you’ll be able to sell it to somebody if you sell it the right time, and buy a better computer with the money
⏹️ ▶️ John that you sold it for. Better for your needs, that it’ll actually be faster, it won’t have any
⏹️ ▶️ John of the expansion or weird esoteric features that you never used anyway, and it’ll be way smaller and lighter and better and everything
⏹️ ▶️ John like. Yeah, so I don’t think it’s gonna happen. I like the idea
⏹️ ▶️ John that they’re trying to convince themselves to buy a fancy computer, a fancy Mac. I like the idea
⏹️ ▶️ John that they’re thinking about, you know, how quickly they’ll be able to denoise podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ John or work in Final Cut Pro and all of that is probably true. But 10 years,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not gonna get 10 years of service out of that. See, if it wasn’t for the ARM transition,
⏹️ ▶️ John I would keep the computer, not for 10 years, but for a pretty long time if, if and only if, it was
⏹️ ▶️ John one of those computers that’s a good one. Like, so to give an example, my current Mac Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John every time I come up to my Mac Pro that is over 10 years old and I hit the space bar, it wakes up. It always wakes
⏹️ ▶️ John up. And like, I don’t reboot it. It just runs forever. It always works.
⏹️ ▶️ John It does exactly what it’s gonna do. That’s a good one, right? If your computer occasionally, like my wife’s 5K iMac,
⏹️ ▶️ John freaks out and has some kind of dialogue telling me to reenter my key chain password and nothing works and I have to reboot the thing to
⏹️ ▶️ John get it to work and I have no idea why it’s causing it, no way in hell I’m keeping that computer for 10 years. Like if it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John flaky, if like all the laptops I’ve ever owned and you lift the lid and sometimes they don’t wake up or a kernel
⏹️ ▶️ John panics 3.5 times per month for inexplicable reasons, I’m not keeping that computer for 10 years.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if you find a good one, like this is my philosophy, you find a computer that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it was really awesome when you bought it and it was super fast and you really loved it, but now it’s getting kind of long
⏹️ ▶️ John on the tooth, but it continues to just work reliably. Like I frequently look at the 5K, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John like, I’m glad it’s not my computer because my computer never does that stuff. It just works. And I don’t know if it’s a software problem, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know if it’s a hardware problem. I’ve had computers that are like this, computers that are not like this. My Power Mac G5 was
⏹️ ▶️ John a little finicky, right? you know, and I had a Quadra that was
⏹️ ▶️ John very solid, even though it was a garbage computer. I had an SE30 that was amazing, my previous champion
⏹️ ▶️ John computer, you know? So if I find a good one, I will keep it for a long time, but the ARM transition is gonna stop even me
⏹️ ▶️ John from doing that, because there’s no way I’m gonna be running like an Intel Mac six years into the ARM transition. I’m going
⏹️ ▶️ John to get rid of it and buy an ARM replacement. Beep, beep, beep.