324: Automatic Kicking Machine03 May 2019
Overcast’s clip sharing, Apple vs. parental-control apps, and Marco vs. jury duty.
The ATP store is back with brand new designs! Only available until May 12! Order now! Our thanks to The Iconfactory for helping us out with the T-Shirt designs this year.
- Australia Post's website link guidelines (via Robb McAlavey)
- How could one leverage copyright to block podcasts in clients?
- Clip sharing with Overcast
- Overcast for macOS
- New York Times on Apple "cracking down" on MDM apps
- What naming convention do we use for stuff on our Macs? (via Keegan Sands)
- Why does Apple bother with AWS? (via Patrick)
- What are our favorite sports cars? (via Paul Wood III)
- Post-show: Marco gets summoned to jury duty
- Don’t forget about shirts
- Follow-up: Link permission
- Follow-up: Copyright law
- Sponsor: Clear
- Overcast clip sharing
- Marzipan hacks
- Sponsor: Hover
- Apple vs. parental-control apps
- Sponsor: Eero (code ATP)
- #askatp: File naming
- #askatp: Apple’s own AWS?
- #askneutral: Top 10 sports cars
- Ending theme
- Jury-duty tech 🖼️
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you live in a affluent, is that right?
⏹️ ▶️ John No, why do you? It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey only two ways to do it. Just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the opposite of what you think you’re going to do. It’s affluent? That just sounds wrong to
⏹️ ▶️ John going to pronounce the word. I didn’t make it up. Oh, God. Just
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey think about it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe think of like Aflac, the Aflac duck. Oh! Affluent. Aflac.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a good mnemonic.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s a good what now? It was a joke. I know it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mnemonic. It was a joke.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It was a joke.
Don’t forget about shirts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so we should start right at the top of the show and remind everyone I know I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey got really obnoxious about it last week You’re welcome on the or I should say that Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey should say you’re welcome Because I noticed he cut quite a bit of my lecturing as he should have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco now is the time ladies and gentlemen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now is the time ladies and gentlemen to go to ATP dot FM slash store in order to find
⏹️ ▶️ Casey links to Cotton Bureau’s website Where we have all sorts of different merchandise up Every
⏹️ ▶️ Casey year, somebody, actually usually many somebody says, Oh, I meant to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do it and I forgot. And, uh, can, is there any way? Is there any? No,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there is no way. Pull the car over, stop your run, do whatever you need to do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to safely equip yourself to go to atp.fm slash store, please,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and buy yourself some delightful merch. And I’ll just leave it at that this week.
Follow-up: Link permission
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, let’s start with some follow up. Rob McAlevey has written in to say that the Australia
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Post website terms and conditions have a whole section telling you what to do to get approval to link to their website.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This came up within the context of, what is it, Luminary, something like that? I already forgot the name of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey stupid thing. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John Luminary. It was telling them that they, you can’t put my podcast in your feed.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Rob writes that, you know, in the context of us saying, who’s in control of, you know, whether or not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a podcast ends up in Luminary, and we were joking about, well, who’s in control of who links to your website?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, apparently the Australia Post has some guidelines about how you can
⏹️ ▶️ Casey link to their website, which is something else. It’s not that long, but it’s surprising to me
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you’re saying this is a thing that websites used to do before they understood the web. This is notable because this is a current website
⏹️ ▶️ John that is live right now that says, if you
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco want to establish
⏹️ ▶️ John a link to the website, you must first seek approval from Australia Post. And also if the nature
⏹️ ▶️ John or content of your website changes in any significant way, you must contact the Australia Post. Yeah, we’ll get right on that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, this brings the obvious question of, are we allowed to link to this from our show notes?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, that’s a good point.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get us, Australia Post. Come at me bro.
Follow-up: Copyright law
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Roger Allen Ford, who is an associate professor of law somewhere, writes, this is, hey,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whoever put this in the show notes didn’t include the where. I’m sorry, Roger
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Allen Ford. I didn’t want to nail it down too much.
⏹️ ▶️ John He did give the location of where he’s an associate professor of law, but you know, I don’t know. Don’t be creepy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, by providing an app that allows members of the public to receive transmissions of album art and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey podcast audio, Luminary could be said to perform or display those copyrighted works.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey By embedding a podcast copyrighted artwork within the app playing copyrighted episodes, a podcast player app would be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey infringing on the exclusive rights to public performance or display. I don’t know why the Times and others want to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey block Luminary, but they are essentially on solid legal ground doing so. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey should have said context, I’m sorry. This was, you know, whether or not it’s even really possible for these podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and podcast hosts to block their shows from appearing in Luminary. And I think Roger wasn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey necessarily saying that this was a slam dunk case, if I recall this email correctly, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe he was basically saying it’s possible, like it is certainly plausible in the MythBusters,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, canon. It is plausible that this could be enforced in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey American copyright law.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this was a very long email that I was trying to condense here, but you know, this is another instance where,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s not also stupid.
⏹️ ▶️ John Or reverse that, because it really is very silly. But legally speaking,
⏹️ ▶️ John there are lots of legal arguments you can make in favor of the idea that law,
⏹️ ▶️ John what can you do? That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco why we have lawyers. The thing with copyright law too is like much of law, if someone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes any kind of copyright legal claim against you, you can’t really fight it. You can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s never going to get to a court. You’re never going to get to argue with somebody, well, what I’m doing is fair use or what I’m doing does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not constitute public performance. You’re never going to get to argue that. What’s going to happen is if somebody has a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco complaint that they want their stuff off your app or platform, they’re gonna complain to you,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you don’t respond, they’re gonna complain to Apple or Google, well, you know, the app store provider, and if they don’t respond,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re gonna complain to your web host, like, they can complain to, you know, different infrastructure providers up the chain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco until one of them doesn’t wanna deal with it and just kicks you off. So the reality is there is no
⏹️ ▶️ Marco copyright law defense online. If somebody wants to make a stink, they make a stink, and you have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to comply. So the reality here is this is not a legal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem, this is a market problem. That the only defense that anybody has against
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this kind of thing is making an app or service where it is not in anybody’s best interest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to opt out of your service. Or it is not, or like nobody would even think to do that because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems so ridiculous to do that. And that’s where most podcast apps land, in that kind of area.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But Luminary, by angering everybody, everyone is looking for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things they can do because they’re mad. And I think that’s what a lot of this stuff was.
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Overcast clip sharing
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Overcast has come out with a really frickin’ cool new feature and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’d like to lodge a complaint that hopefully we can rectify right now. Let’s do it. I was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey listening to Under the Radar, which is an excellent podcast with Marco and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey our good friend Dave Smith. And you kind of fluffed over
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all the technical aspects of how this feature works. And we’ll explain the feature momentarily. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am here for the technical explanation of how this feature works to the degree that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you are willing to share. Now, I should probably back up and explain what the hell I’m talking about. But I would like it to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on record that I am all about figuring out, or not figuring out, but hearing about how you did this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because this sounds fascinating to me. But what am I talking about? So out of nowhere, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did not know this was coming. I don’t think John knew this was coming. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you had said, maybe under the radar, that only a couple of people did know it was coming. But all of a sudden
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the last couple of days, Marco and his app Overcast have released this new Clips
⏹️ ▶️ Casey feature. And the idea is, and Marco, if I’m characterizing this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey unfairly, just feel free to cut me off. But the idea is, hey, podcasts are not easy to share in the same
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way like a GIF or in some degree a YouTube video is. And Marco has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for years and years had timestamp links where you can go to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a, the Overcast website and it will open to a specific time in the podcast, which works great,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey except for all the big shows with dynamic ad insertion for all the reasons we already spoke about, et cetera, et cetera. Plus it’s still hard
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to know, like, am I supposed to be listening to the last 45 minutes of this episode and I’m just starting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the middle or am I supposed to listen to 15 seconds or what’s the deal here? And so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, and perhaps you can discuss motivations in a second other than that, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it seemed like the idea was, Hey, let’s make it easy to share this stuff. And, you know, if they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey share it with overcast clips feature, that’s some, you know, kind of subliminal, that’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the right word for it, but kind of, you know, quiet marketing for overcast. But then because you’re a good person,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you decided to optionally allow people to remove the overcast branding or add branding
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Apple podcasts, or even some of your competitors, which I think is really tremendous. And I, and I hope I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sound sarcastic because I really do mean that. I really think that this is the right way to do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Not the easy way, not both in the literal sense of the word, but also in the like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey should I really be promoting my competitors kind of thing? Uh, but I think this is the right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way to do it. And you’re a good man, Charlie Brown. And I used this feature for the first time a couple hours ago and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey loved it. I really want to know, even if it’s privately, how you did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all this, because I am neck deep in doing things that are considerably less complex
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and considerably less advanced. And so the thought of trying to implement this just makes me
⏹️ ▶️ Casey googly-eyed. But one way or another, before we dive in, if we even do dive into implementation,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just wanted to, first of all, publicly say I love this feature. I think it’s great. right by
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone, including listeners, including competitors, including podcasters.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really think this is a home run. But if you would like to revise anything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I said or add any clarity, please feel free.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, you’re just saying how awesome I am. I think I’m gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John leave it at that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I have to say how awesome it is first too before Marco goes. I’ll allow it. Yeah. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the parts that Casey might have left off, which I think is the the most important part of this entire feature. Actually,
⏹️ ▶️ John before I get into that, I’ll briefly touch on the links at the bottom where you
⏹️ ▶️ John could link to competitors and stuff like that. I feel like there’s a little bit of the enemy of my enemy is my friend
⏹️ ▶️ John going on here because
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Marco does not link to Luminary.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I don’t care about Luminary. Luminary is not a threat to me. Spotify is a threat to all of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco us, but I don’t know how to link to Spotify when what I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have is an iTunes ID. Every app that I link to there has a way that I can generate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a URL knowing the iTunes ID of the podcast. I don’t know how to do that for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some other services like Spotify, and so I don’t do that. If Spotify had some way that I could say, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, Spotify.com slash podcast slash iTunes one, two, three, four, five, and I know that anybody I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sent there would get redirected to whatever Spotify’s giant garbage URL would be for that podcast, I would
⏹️ ▶️ John Really? I always thought you were mostly linking to open, to actual real podcast apps as in they, they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s two sides of this. Like I, I do want to only support open
⏹️ ▶️ Marco based podcast apps if I can, but also I want the share page
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be so useful that big publishers will be tempted to use it. And if big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco publishers, you know, have a lot of their audience on Spotify, they’re not going to even consider
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using a page, like a share page, that has a bunch of other apps but not Spotify.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now that being said, this might be a moot concern because big publishers would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably never use these at all anyway. They’re probably going to use only their own stuff because that’s how they usually work.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like, this might be a moot argument, but ideally, I would like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those pages to be as broad appeal on the client
⏹️ ▶️ John All right, well, getting back to my original point, and I think it’s the most important feature of this, and which may not have been clear in all of
⏹️ ▶️ John our descriptions, when you activate this feature, what you get in
⏹️ ▶️ John the end that you can stick in your tweet or wherever the hell is a video,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is like you’re sharing podcasts. If I’m sharing podcasts, why the hell do I get a video
⏹️ ▶️ John at the end of it? It’s not a video medium, it’s audio. And Overcast already
⏹️ ▶️ John had audio share links granted without an ending timestamp, but Marco could have added an ending timestamp or a duration very easily
⏹️ ▶️ John as another query parameter or something, but he didn’t. Why is this feature video? The fact that it’s video
⏹️ ▶️ John is I think the most important and most attractive thing about this feature for a couple of reasons.
⏹️ ▶️ John One, there’s the obvious one of like, when it makes the video, the content of the actual video includes like,
⏹️ ▶️ John essentially the brand of the podcast, the album art or whatever the hell you wanna call it, call it of the podcast,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is important for branding and recognition to know, instead of just following an Overcast
⏹️ ▶️ John timestamp link. And I mean, you’d go to overcast.com and you’d see the thing or whatever, but like it’s, yeah, so there
⏹️ ▶️ John is a presentational detail there. But I think the most important reason is that people want something
⏹️ ▶️ John to look at. And it seems weird, because it’s like, well, isn’t it all just about being in the headphones
⏹️ ▶️ John and just listening to the thing or whatever? Just, and the only thing that happens on it is like, there’s a progress
⏹️ ▶️ John bar that progresses. Just being able to see a progress bar to see how much longer there is in a clip individually to see the album art
⏹️ ▶️ John while you listen. People like to look at videos and like I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know if this was a conscious like if you went through this whole thought process or decided this was important about it, but I think
⏹️ ▶️ John it is essential. I think part of the reason people share these is because all the social
⏹️ ▶️ John sharing services are optimized for sharing video. You can play it right in the thing. You don’t get sent
⏹️ ▶️ John elsewhere. You don’t get sent to website. All social media sharing type things have to be
⏹️ ▶️ John good at sharing video because all the the gifts get turned into video and all the little you know when vine was popular
⏹️ ▶️ John that was out there just like it’s part of social media part of good use of social media
⏹️ ▶️ John is to embed tiny videos. So even if you’re sharing podcasts, if you do it
⏹️ ▶️ John as embedding tiny videos, that is the the the native lingua franca of the entire
⏹️ ▶️ John social networking world. And in practice, I think people love it because it’s video. I like
⏹️ ▶️ John it because it’s video I find myself watching the little video of the thing, which has a tiny little progress
⏹️ ▶️ John bar that goes from left to right, while I sort of see the album art out of my peripheral vision. It is a very
⏹️ ▶️ John simple feature, but I think is the genius part of this feature that if you were just thinking about how to do
⏹️ ▶️ John this in a straightforward way, you would have found a way to share audio and then you would have found out how bad tiny
⏹️ ▶️ John audio clips are handled by most social media networks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, that is the entire feature. The entire feature is generating video for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco social network sharing. That is the whole point. And I basically wrote the feature for Instagram.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everything else has been like, oh, it’s nice to also do these other things, but the very first layout I made was the portrait
⏹️ ▶️ Marco layout for Instagram stories. The reason why the videos are 16 by nine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or nine by 16 or square is because those are the exact dimensions of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what Instagram is optimized for. I even looked up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of the first questions had were like, what is the ideal resolution that you can submit to Instagram for a video?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, you know, the pixel resolution and stuff. And by the way, there’s no information about most of this out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there. And there’s things like, you know, with Instagram Stories, there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are, it overlays certain controls in certain parts of the video. So that’s why I don’t have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything in the very top or very bottom of Instagram Story video. So anyway, yeah, this was built
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for social networks because the fact is, like, you know, you said earlier, like audio is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the format of podcasts, but video is the format of sharing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so if you want to share things socially, it needs to be a photo or a video.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anything that, like if you try to put something that doesn’t have those, it’s very easy for people to skim over. And I think there’s also, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, I think you mentioned this, I think there’s also an appeal of like, when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you are playing one of these clips, there is something for your eyes to do.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like, if it was, suppose the Twitter app or the Instagram app were really optimized for playing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco audio, they’re not, but suppose they were. If you do that, you hit play, you keep scrolling,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you keep scrolling, you’re reading things with your eyes and the linguistic parsing parts of your brain,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so you stop listening to what’s being said, if it’s a talk segment of the audio.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You need something visual to lock your eyes in place, to give them something to do, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you pay attention instead of continuing to scroll through a visual format
⏹️ ▶️ Marco feed. Otherwise you wouldn’t hear what’s being said, it wouldn’t be very effective.
⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’ve ever seen a kid tap a YouTube video while it was playing,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re like, why are they tapping the screen? The video is playing, everything’s fine. You know why they’re tapping it?
⏹️ ▶️ John To find out how long this video is.
⏹️ ▶️ John seeing a progress bar, you know how far along in the clip are you. What am I signing up
⏹️ ▶️ John for? If I just hit play and it starts playing, I’m like, is this gonna be like 20 minutes of audio
⏹️ ▶️ John that I have to listen to? Am I expected to listen to 10 minutes? How long is this thing? There’s a progress bar right there
⏹️ ▶️ John and you can see very quickly, and also you’ll get to this in a second, that the actual maximum limit means
⏹️ ▶️ John that you’re not gonna be there for 20 minutes no matter what, which means that when the progress bar starts to move, you’ll see, oh, this is going
⏹️ ▶️ John at a pretty good clip here. It’s gonna be over pretty soon. I’m about halfway through. You know how
⏹️ ▶️ John close you’re getting to the end. The second cool feature is that if in Twitterific anyway, some other video
⏹️ ▶️ John players, when a large video starts to play this list looks for all the world like, like a player animation
⏹️ ▶️ John in like overcast or podcast app, it has a progress bar. Let’s say if like me, you briefly
⏹️ ▶️ John forget that this is a video playing and you think it’s a player app
⏹️ ▶️ John where you can just grab the scrubber, like the little you know, play head and the progress bar and drag
⏹️ ▶️ John it to fast forward to like three quarters of the way through lots of video playing
⏹️ ▶️ John apps have a thing where when the video is playing if you swipe your finger across
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen it acts as sort of a virtual progress bar
⏹️ ▶️ John you can actually grab the little thumb in the video yeah and
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I didn’t know
⏹️ ▶️ John move your thumb like you’re moving the progress bar and it doesn’t match one-to-one but it will basically do what
⏹️ ▶️ John you mean it’s like you’ve made a fake interactive video that tricks you into things like
⏹️ ▶️ John the drugs but it is not interactive it is just a video and all you’re doing is scrubbing. It’s unintentional
⏹️ ▶️ John genius. Great. I’ll take
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we’ve kind of talked about what it is, the motivation. Again, I love this so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey much. To the extent you’re willing to, can you pull back the curtain
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and tell us kind of how, at the very least, how did it go on a qualitative
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sense? Like, was this pretty easy sailing or were you fighting this every step of the way? And then
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am happy to go as deep as you want into the actual implementation. I have a feeling that’s not going to be very far. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, but but how,
⏹️ ▶️ John how? Oh, can I can I make a guess at the implementation? Yeah, go for it. I know nothing about
⏹️ ▶️ John this. This is right. Because if there’s some easy API for doing
⏹️ ▶️ John it, I some case, you wouldn’t even be asking. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey well, yes or no. I mean, I have a relatively okay idea
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of a lot of the surface area of the iOS API, but there’s a lot particularly in media
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. And either way, I’ve only been doing this for real for a couple of years, whereas for Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s been what, 10 plus? So there is a lot I don’t know. So I appreciate the compliment, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s possible that it’s easier than I thought. That being said, I bet you it’s not as easy as I thought.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I have two guesses, the easy one and the hard one. The easy one is, if any of this is true, I’m pretty sure
⏹️ ▶️ John iOS has a screen recording API, and if you can get an off-screen view and stick the existing screen recording
⏹️ ▶️ John API your off-screen view you just go through the view and have the screen recording thing recorded right but that
⏹️ ▶️ John might require it to be a real-time I don’t know so that would be the one we’re like I didn’t really really have to do any work because iOS already knows how to record
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen and I just have a recording off-screen screen and I just render the screen and that would work out the hard
⏹️ ▶️ John one is you know it is a video is just a series of pictures
⏹️ ▶️ John you can render a view that is in the state that you want all and the
⏹️ ▶️ John only thing that changes the progress bar so you can render a series of frames as individual states of views
⏹️ ▶️ John and capture the view as an image. And then surely there’s some video API that says, hey, I’ve got 700
⏹️ ▶️ John images, each of which is a frame of video, construct a video out of these frames. That would be the hard way.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I imagine that would be very painful and take a really long time, but it could be done given the constraints of what we
⏹️ ▶️ John see. Probably neither one of those are right, but those are the two things that immediately sprung to mind. Both of those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would have been too slow. So what I wanted to do, I wanted something first of all,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I could render using UIKit style
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things. So I could use my fonts and my text rendering and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the artwork render with the shadow and the rounded corners and everything. Basically using the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tools I used to render the interface, I wanted to also render the video. I also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco critically wanted you to be able to preview it immediately upon generating the trimmed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco region for the audio. So, when you trim the audio, it pushes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you say next or preview, whatever, it pushes you to the preview screen, and you can hit play, and it renders
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in real time. Like, it plays it in real time. It doesn’t have to render it to a video first.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the reason why is because what you’re playing is not a video. What you’re playing is a core
⏹️ ▶️ Marco animation stack, basically. All of it is rendered using core animation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that makes it so you can scrub through it with that scrubber on the bottom, And when you hit the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco save thing in the corner to bring up the share sheet, that’s when it encodes all that to a video.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I wanted to make sure also, I wanted the preview to be exactly right. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanted exactly what you see in the preview to be what’s rendered to the video. So I didn’t want the video
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be using a different kind of technology that would maybe have different text rendering
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or different anti-aliasing on edges or something like that. I wanted it to be exact.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I wanted instant previewing using core animation, UI kit and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that, and having the video look identical. And there is a way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do this. I can tell you. I’m using AV asset
⏹️ ▶️ Marco export session. Oh god, these names are so long for these APIs.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the preview video is not, it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco UI views, it’s CA layers. the rendering is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a AV asset export session that somewhere buried deep in the API,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can set something called an animation tool. And the animation tool is this weird
⏹️ ▶️ Marco API that lets you basically overlay onto a video
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a core animation composition. And the thing is, with this API,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everything about AV Foundation is incredibly powerful,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco incredibly poorly documented, and has the worst error reporting of anything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have heard this many times, and not just from you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The only documentation you’ll find, you know, the headers are basically useless, the official documentation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is basically useless. The only documentation that’s any good is like Stack Overflow and blog
⏹️ ▶️ Marco posts, usually, which are very old, and sometimes out of date. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because not a lot of people are doing this kind of stuff, there really isn’t that much help on Stack
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Overflow and places like that. Like there’s some help, but it’s not a lot. And sometimes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you will find other people asking, like, hey, I got error negative 319 when I did this. What does that mean? And it’ll have responses, but there’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco always be other people saying, I got it too. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And occasionally somebody will be like, well, I rewrote the entire thing and it fixed it. So it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right? And so there’s all, you’ve run into all sorts of weird errors
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and failures. My favorite failure, astute users might’ve noticed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that occasionally the progress circle during the export restarts at zero.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Have you guys caught this happening?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, someone complained that it was taking like two progress bars. And I guess it was just the same progress bar,
⏹️ ▶️ John attempt number two.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, it isn’t uncommon. I’d say it happens maybe one out of five times. What happens is, during
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the AV asset export of the video, as it’s rendering the video, which I have very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco little visibility into, but I do have a progress value. You know, it’s like.5,.6, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco During the export, sometimes, for reasons I have not been able to figure out, and that are not reported to me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all, progress just stops. And it just, it will never finish. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when it gets to that state, when progress stops of an AV asset export session, it just never
⏹️ ▶️ Marco resumes. I have no idea why this happens. I found no documentation about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have, you know, found nobody reporting this elsewhere, and there’s no error reported when it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happens. It just stops one time. I tried like I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pause in the debugger, and I basically, you know, I canceled it and restarted it manually.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Basically, I kicked it, and that time it worked, and I kept
⏹️ ▶️ Marco developing it. And And then the next time I noticed that happened in one of my test runs, I kicked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it again. And it worked the second time. And I eventually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco realized that if it stopped working and I just kicked it, it would usually work the second try.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So my solution to this problem was I filed a bug with Apple. Just kidding.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You? No, I didn’t. Because that would have taken a lot of time and not solved the problem. Because how do you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco file a bug on this? I built an automatic kicking machine. Every time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it detects that it has stopped for more than a few seconds, it automatically kicks it
⏹️ ▶️ John usually fixes it. 50% of the time it works 100% of the time.
⏹️ ▶️ John So this is the equivalent of this is the equivalent of when you edit that delay for the resume after Siri
⏹️ ▶️ John time delay is exactly the same type of terrible solution to a problem. Just like
⏹️ ▶️ John just try to get it probably work the second time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but this is how you have to ship things in iOS like yeah, because You know what? The reality is I could have filed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bug and it would have taken five times longer. I would have gone back and forth with, can you provide
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a test project? Not really. You know, I can’t even provide reliable reproduction steps.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It happens sometimes and this usually fixes it. Like that’s a terrible bug report. And so,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and, and it’s not like they’re going to fix it immediately. They might fix it this fall,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but even like it’s may they’re like whatever is locked in for the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco WBC release of these OSs is locked in. They’re not doing bug fixes for unimportant stuff now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I could either wait for Apple to fix this bug before I ship this, because the feature was unshippable with this,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because if one out of five exports just fails, that kind of sucks,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t really ship that. I could have waited seven months for Apple to maybe fix this feature,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or I could build the automatic clicking machine, and that worked within 10 minutes. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the solution I shipped. And I would love to not need it anymore. I would love, you know, I’m still trying to figure out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what caused this. I’m trying a few things for the next version that maybe might avoid it. But I still haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite nailed it down. So that’s how that, if you ever see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the progress circle restart itself from zero, you know what happened.
⏹️ ▶️ John Does it, how many times will it retry?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco As many as it takes.
⏹️ ▶️ John So you could in theory be there and watch that progress bar go start and then restart and then restart you’ll just never
⏹️ ▶️ John leave until it succeeds. The most I’ve ever seen is twice. This is gonna be a new contest. Who can
⏹️ ▶️ John get the most restarts? And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if anybody can reliably have reproduction steps of what makes it do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, because I still can’t figure it out. So let me know.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is a killer feature. I love that you’re linking to all these other competing apps.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Have you gotten feedback from the Castro folks, which I know you’re relatively close with the Castro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey folks. feedback is they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John all copying this feature now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but I mean that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasonable. They’re all building their own automated kicking machines.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. No, but seriously, like, were they pleased with it? But or, or, or, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, how was the reception? Not necessarily from Castro. I shouldn’t single them out. I just know that you talked to those guys a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fair bit. But like in a broad sense, did you speak to anyone about this after
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it released? And were they pleased? Were they kind of like, whoa, kind of whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Seems positive. Good. Yeah, no one seemed to have a problem with it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we’re all saying we like this feature or whatever. But the real proof is that if you go on Twitter right now, at least in
⏹️ ▶️ John the circles of our followers, lots of people are using this feature to share clips from podcasts, which is exactly
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole point of the feature. Now, maybe it’s just a fad and people will stop. But honestly, I think we’re just going to continue
⏹️ ▶️ John to see more and more of this, at least among overcast users. And when every other podcast client copies this feature,
⏹️ ▶️ John then we’ll see it more in general, which is good because I have I have listened to more
⏹️ ▶️ John short clips of podcasts since you’ve introduced this feature than like the entire three years before that combined.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John everywhere. And that brings up another one of the questions like you you limited this to was it one minute maximum
⏹️ ▶️ John length? Yes. How did you come up with that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco number? I wanted to have a limit for lots of reasons. You know, there’s fair use concerns,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco attention span concerns with people like if you post a 10 minute video on Twitter, no
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one’s gonna sit and watch all 10 minutes of it. It’s just not the mode people are in. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco progress bar is not that exciting. Right, exactly. And there were technical concerns
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also, like that long of a video would take a lot longer to encode and that would just be tedious.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so there were a number of concerns with that, but what made me choose one minute
⏹️ ▶️ Marco specifically is because that is the limit of how long a video can be on Instagram.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Might as well, like I wanted to have a low limit anyway, might as well match that one. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John my feature request is the minimum length should be shorter because I wanted to post a clip of someone
⏹️ ▶️ John snorting on a podcast but the snort was not short enough. What is the minimum length? One second, two second?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I actually don’t know. It has to do with the width of the grab handles for the trimming thing. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have logic for the grab handles never to overlap each other or cross each other. And this is currently why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you also can’t trim a podcast from zero zero. Like from the very beginning of it, you can’t actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco clip that. you have to clip one second in. That’s not a content decision, that’s a implementation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco detail that I’m hoping to fix in the next version.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, I guess the handles
⏹️ ▶️ John are like C-shaped and not just like flappy. The little branches on the C must be pretty long because
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a big gap. But yeah, I would love to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The handle actually has a rectangular grab area that is about five times
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wider than the visual handle. Like it’s like two and a half times on each side roughly. It’s about, I think, 50
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pixels wide total is the total grab area. And right now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those grab areas can’t overlap. So the closest you can put the handles together is something like 100 pixels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It’s something like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John That could be tighter, that could be better. And if you really wanna go nuts, which you probably don’t, but it’d be good practice for your future audio
⏹️ ▶️ John editing application. One of the features that I always love, I would always love to have in,
⏹️ ▶️ John whether it’s audio or video, but particular audio, when you’re trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John do fine adjustments on a trim, like I’ve more or less got the beginning and the end where I want them, but I want to do fine
⏹️ ▶️ John adjustments. Being able to no longer touch the primary controls for touching the trim
⏹️ ▶️ John ends, but to have a separate set of controls for the fine adjustments, whatever those may be, right? Either
⏹️ ▶️ John whether it’s like a tiny bump thing or whatever, because usually, especially with sort of quantized data, you can know there’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John minimum step that’s reasonable to take for
⏹️ ▶️ John right? And so you could even have it be a digital thing to be, you know, bump it left, left, left, right, right, right, lots of,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, Photoshop type applications or you know Mac paint or whatever had a way to like nudge
⏹️ ▶️ John the selection by single pixels at a time with the arrow keys and stuff like that. Something like that where you get
⏹️ ▶️ John it pretty close and then use a separate control with with less less pressure because especially
⏹️ ▶️ John on the touchscreen trying to move your thumb one retina pixel to try to get like a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just it’s very difficult to do and there’s no real zooming on that timeline I know it’s not an audio editor it’s just for trimming or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John but if you want to go whole hog when you’re trying to make just that perfectly trimmed clip,
⏹️ ▶️ John which you should be because a lot of people are getting pretty sloppy, especially with the end while they’re cut it off in the middle of someone’s word or
⏹️ ▶️ John something. That’s no good. You want to you want it to sort of begin and end exactly where you want it to find
⏹️ ▶️ John controls would be great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s interesting. I mean, if you if you use voiceover, you can go plus or minus one second. That’s how I made it accessible. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John second is huge. I’m talking about like one sample.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s Yeah, I mean, one thing I could do is which would be technically a a pain in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco butt, but one thing I could do is like if you hold down on one of the drag handles, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would zoom in like the whole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John time. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like audio editor features. You can do all sorts of fancy things or like when you when you move the trim handles, you constantly rescale
⏹️ ▶️ John to like readjust the scale to say now that you’ve you’ve moved the drag handles now
⏹️ ▶️ John that is 100% and constant. But I think like that’s that’s too much. Probably just, you know, just being able
⏹️ ▶️ John to do gross adjustment and then fine adjustment. iMovie annoys me because as far as I’m aware,
⏹️ ▶️ John iMovie is what I use for all my YouTube videos. It doesn’t seem to have a great fine adjustment feature. Luckily on a 27
⏹️ ▶️ John inch screen, you make things pretty huge and set the zoom to max and get it in where you want it. But I always, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John like, just don’t make me, even with a mouse, like don’t make me try to move any control on the screen, a single retina pixel
⏹️ ▶️ John or a single regular or a single point. Like, give me a second set, like mechanically speaking, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John always like a second set of controls with like a different sort of gear ratio or mechanical advantage
⏹️ ▶️ John ratio where you can move huge gross movements that move the actual thing you want to move a tiny amount.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it’s funny, as I was developing the clip editor there, I had to decide what is the scale,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s the zoom level? And I could make it dynamic, but that would, again, a lot more work. I didn’t really wanna tackle
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that yet. So what’s the zoom level of that? And Overcast is a portrait app,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this is a horizontal timeline. So it’s like you only have the short side of the phone as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the width of what you’re dealing with here. As I was developing it, I actually slowly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco zoomed out from like I would think that I had a certain time scale that was right and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as I would try to make clips with it I’d be scrolling scroll scroll scroll scroll trying to find like where I wanted the end it was too
⏹️ ▶️ Marco many swipes to get like a like a 45 second long clip and so I slowly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco zoomed out and out and out and I basically solved the problem of imprecision by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just adding cross fades to the beginning and end so there’s a very brief I think it’s about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 0.2 seconds crossfade on the audio like fade in and beginning fade
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out at at the end, because that way you can be a little bit sloppy and you don’t hear like an abrupt
⏹️ ▶️ Marco transition. Yeah, you need that so
⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t get the little pops anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, yeah, I mean I could do like a zero crossing thing, but that’s just more trouble than it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth. And I don’t know that passing that level of precision to core media is a great idea
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, these are all details. It totally passes the basic test, which is people are
⏹️ ▶️ John using it to share clips and the clips are good and enjoyable and people hear them and they
⏹️ ▶️ John understand about the person was trying to clip and they’re funny and it’s working, the system is working.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. So please everyone, share whatever you want. And I don’t want this feature to just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a week of use and then die. And it’s the kind of thing, if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are seeing these clips on a regular basis, you will then think when you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco come across a funny moment, oh, I can post a clip of that. But if you never see any of these clips,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you might never even go to this menu. Like you might never even know this feature is there. I
⏹️ ▶️ John would not have known it was there. I never go to the share thing. Why would I ever even tap that button? But I only know about it because
⏹️ ▶️ John I saw the feature on Twitter.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, and it’s the kind of like, and I could like put up a balloon or something in the app, but I don’t, I hate doing that. I don’t do that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like, ideally this is the kind of feature that people see around and then they go, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can do that with Overcast too, cool. And then they would go and look for it and they should, I assume they’d
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be able to find it pretty easily. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s probably the biggest problem is I don’t think people will be able to. I mean, the nerdy people will know to use the share
⏹️ ▶️ John icon or whatever, but for a feature this good, it should be so much more prominent in the application. And I know now is not
⏹️ ▶️ John the time to really redesign your UI to highlight this one feature, but I think people will have a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ John of difficulty finding it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’ll play with it. And certainly, when I design the next
⏹️ ▶️ Marco version of the Now Playing screen, I will certainly consider, do I want to promote
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, what do you call this? We’ve been calling it Clips, but isn’t that the name of Apple’s app for making Instagram
⏹️ ▶️ John story things? You don’t have a trademark name, is that like a?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I just call it ShareClip. SmartClip.
⏹️ ▶️ John SmartClip. InstaClip, I don’t know. Oh, there we go. InstaSmartClip. Oh my
⏹️ ▶️ John word, all right, so. The feature. Oh wow.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey trying to get into all the
⏹️ ▶️ John Margo name slams in one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It took me a minute. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I would ask you, you know how the new
⏹️ ▶️ Casey AirPlay 2 stuff is going, but I already know what you’re going to be doing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey starting next month, and you’re going to be using Marzipan to make overcast for the Mac.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, wait, never mind, Steve Trout and Smith already did it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Trout If you exclude the ability to play audio, but that’s a minor feature.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. John Deere Minor issue. Steve Trout Yeah. John Deere So tell me about your side of the story. And I mean
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that in a good way. I hope that didn’t sound nasty, but you know, like what what’s going on here?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so basically Steve Tratton Smith has been playing with the the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco marzipan environment on Mojave For I don’t know six months now for a while
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and he wrote a couple blog posts and has made some tools one called marzipanify that basically allow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you to take a simulator build which is therefore an Intel build
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of an iOS app and If you’re willing to disable system integrity
⏹️ ▶️ Marco protection and some other thing about, I think like some kind of certificate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco validation on a Mac, and you run this tool on a simulator build, you can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it run in Marcipan on Mojave. And so those are two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco giant ifs, if you’re willing to do this, that I’m not willing to do. But he is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and he wrote the tool. about getting this stuff to run than I do. And so I have a meeting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while to send him a simulator build of Overcast. He’s like, hey, can you just see if this runs and see what happens? Let me know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I need to do anything. And so I finally got around to doing that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what is it, a couple of days ago now. And we worked through, there were a few frameworks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I had to ifdef out the use of, things like the media toolbox things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for doing things like putting the playback controls and title information in Control Center.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that API is not there in Mojave, Marzipan. And so I had to just like ifdef that out for this build.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then there were a couple other like small things I had to ifdef out that just weren’t present. Things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the mail compose sheet. There’s a lot of frameworks that aren’t there. There’s a lot of frameworks that just don’t make sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the Mac, things like that Control Center framework and CarPlay, like those frameworks were missing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the Mac probably for good because that just doesn’t make sense. But like, you know, my app would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch and try to load them and it would crash. And so we went back and forth. I think six builds later,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco after I did a few more things, I think he got it running. And that was it. And it was great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it didn’t take a lot, really, which was promising. Partly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I kind of won here, in part because I am such a jerk
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and don’t ever use anyone else’s code in my app. Like, my app contains
⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost entirely my code, and the little bits of it that aren’t mine that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I need to change, I can change. And it isn’t loading a whole bunch of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco crap to get there. And so I was able to fairly easily give
⏹️ ▶️ Marco him a version of the app that would run in Mojave under the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco marzipan thing when it’s hacked in this way. So I was very happy with that, and it’s really cool. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t Mac-like at all, but that’s because he’s written blog posts about, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have APIs that you can generate to do things like add toolbars, like add Mac toolbars, add
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac split views, add, you know, menu bar stuff, Apple Script stuff, Touch Bar integration,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the basics of all this stuff are all there, but he doesn’t have my source
⏹️ ▶️ Marco code, so he couldn’t add those things, and I don’t want to take the time to do it yet, because I assume all that stuff is going to be more mature and maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco different in a month, when the official tools presumably come out. So anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really excited about the possibility of making this a Mac app, and I’m really happy that it mostly works
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as is, like it’s not going not going to require massive changes. One change it probably is going to require
⏹️ ▶️ Marco though is AirPlay 2. And as you mentioned, it works in the sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the UI works. It does not, however, play audio, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a podcast app is not great. Already established.
⏹️ ▶️ John Overcast is all about video now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that feature works fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can watch the progress bar move from left to right in silence.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, no, the audio in the clip preview editor, that works
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that doesn’t use my audio stack. The audio playback in the preview editor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for clips is using AVPlayer. That works fine under Mars or Pam or Mojave,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but my core audio based audio engine does not. And actually I sent him
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my AirPlay 2 test harness app, which is like a very basic app that’s running my very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco alpha AirPlay 2 engine just to see like does this play audio and it did. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is moving up my priority of like I should probably switch to this sooner rather than later.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m going to finish that soon I think. That’s probably going to be the next major thing I tackle.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well no I don’t think we really need to spend much more time on this. I just think it’s extremely cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you had made mention of this kind of offhandedly a moment ago but he did not have source code access.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even when he decided to make himself a three-column version of the app, that was without source
⏹️ ▶️ Casey code access, which is just… If you follow Steve John Smith, this won’t surprise
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you and shouldn’t have surprised me. And yet I found it somewhat surprising that he could go in there and swizzle
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the snot out of your app in order to get a three-column version out of thin air, which is just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John incredible. Paul
⏹️ ▶️ John Matzko, Jr. When Marco’s doing the actual Mars-Japan version of Overcast, writing source code like
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I know, right? I was going to
⏹️ ▶️ John be thinking of Steve Trout and Smith who added a third column just by shifting selectors
⏹️ ▶️ John around it. What the hell he’s doing in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In like an hour or two. It took him like no time. I actually do want to go to a three-pane
⏹️ ▶️ Marco layout on iPads and Macs because it makes total sense. I already have three-level
⏹️ ▶️ Marco navigation. It makes complete sense. The leftmost pane would be the root screen. It’d be like playlist podcasts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then the middle pane would be the currently selected playlist or podcast and the right pane would be now playing. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of course what I’m going to do. And I think modern iPads are now wide enough that I can do it there too.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s great. So I intend to do that. But for me to do it, it’s gonna take me a week
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get all that worked out, even with my current structure. And he did it in an hour with no code.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is utterly preposterous. It really, really is. But that’s why we love them.
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Apple vs. parental-control apps
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey There was an article in the New York Times where they said there used to be lots of apps
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would allow parents to control slash restrict
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or at least have visibility into, if nothing else, what their children are doing on their phones. And a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of these apps were using MDM, which is mobile device management. Is that right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I think so.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which is a tool that Apple really developed in order for corporations to control
⏹️ ▶️ Casey their assets. So if your company issues you an iPhone, then you could use MDM in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey order to maintain that iPhone and make sure that only the right apps are being used and that you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey knew where the iPhone was physically on the planet and so on and so forth. But a lot of these companies
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that were doing the the kind of stalker vision for your kids so you could see exactly what they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing, where they are and so on and so forth, we’re using MDM. And Apple,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whether or not they did a good job of explaining, it seems to have come to the opinion that using MDM for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some, if not all of these things, isn’t really what it’s meant for. And there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some amount of debate how they message this to these companies, but one way or another,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they told the companies, Hey, you’re either not going be able to do this anymore and thus your company
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will maybe go away. Or you really need to rethink the mechanism by which you’re doing this, which may
⏹️ ▶️ Casey also make your company go away. But we’re not cool with the way this works right now. And so this New York Times piece,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I really didn’t care for, was basically a bunch of kvetching and moaning from these companies
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about why Apple is big and unfair and terrible. And there are a lot of reasons why Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can be big and unfair and terrible, but this one, this didn’t strike me as that unreasonable.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the response from Apple was basically, look, it’s a privacy thing, and this isn’t how it was supposed to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be used, and we’re not comfortable with this, so we’re not going to allow it anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I think Apple did make a bunch of mistakes here. But first of all, we can start with this New York Times article, which sort of
⏹️ ▶️ John kicked this off. The angle in the article, the sort of sensational angle
⏹️ ▶️ John and the story put forward by the software developers affected by this is like, well, isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John it convenient? comes out with its own screen time feature for dealing with restrictions on,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, you know, family members or children’s phones and stuff. And all of a sudden it doesn’t want to let us,
⏹️ ▶️ John the third party developers who have been offering the same functionality, it doesn’t want to let us sell our applications anymore. Isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John it nefarious and evil? Uh, Apple, once Apple enters the market, they want to kick everybody else out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, and then Apple had like this PR thing that was partially quoted in the New York times article saying
⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple treats third party applications the same as it treats its own, yada yada, which
⏹️ ▶️ John is not true in any way, and is like
⏹️ ▶️ John worst thing that Apple could have, you know, the one quote they could have pulled is the one that those in the know know is not
⏹️ ▶️ John actually true. But that’s not the issue. The whole point is the angle, it’s kind of like Apple is doing
⏹️ ▶️ John this because they’re mean slash evil and have their own interests at heart.
⏹️ ▶️ John But here are the mistakes that I feel like Apple made in this, and some of them are understandable and
⏹️ ▶️ John nobody’s perfect, but like there are mistakes that made the situation more fraught than it
⏹️ ▶️ John needed to be. The first one I feel like is letting third party developers distribute parental control
⏹️ ▶️ John applications using MDM, right? Because MDM, yeah, Casey, you described it well.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like for companies who let their employees have iPhones who want to control what those employees put on their
⏹️ ▶️ John iPhones and want to be able to remote wipe them and stop people from using applications and like any kind of thing where
⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re in a big company and they give you computer hardware to use, have some degree
⏹️ ▶️ John of terrible evil control over it because that’s how it works. Like it’s the company’s phone, it’s not your phone, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the company’s laptop, it’s not your laptop, you’re just using it. And MDM
⏹️ ▶️ John gives the company control of your laptop. The MDM scenario for parental controls,
⏹️ ▶️ John like the reason they use them is because it is literally the only way without jailbreaking to provide
⏹️ ▶️ John this functionality on iOS devices. But in the scenario,
⏹️ ▶️ John in the company scenario, The company is, I don’t know what that I don’t know the right terminology of this. The company is the is
⏹️ ▶️ John the thing that sort of is controlling the MDM thing and the employee has the phone, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s just two parties. It’s the company and the employee. Well, actually, I suppose there’s the vendor of the thing uses
⏹️ ▶️ John MDM. Either way, when a parent buys this application and uses it
⏹️ ▶️ John to control their children’s phone, I may be wrong about this, but my impression is that
⏹️ ▶️ John yes, the parent has the ability to control the control the child’s phone, but also the vendor
⏹️ ▶️ John of the MDM application effectively has some control in this chain as well because they
⏹️ ▶️ John are the creators of the application.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I may be wrong about that. No,
⏹️ ▶️ John They have full control. Yeah, so it’s like it’s a three-party scenario instead of two.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that third party is one that a parent downloading this application might not
⏹️ ▶️ John realize is in the mix here. A company surely knows that it is the one controlling the thing, yada yada, like, but
⏹️ ▶️ John the parent might think, I’m just controlling my kid’s phone, but the The company that makes this software
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t have any untoward access to my kids phone and they do. It’s just not the right tool
⏹️ ▶️ John for the job. And it’s on Apple that they allowed this entire ecosystem
⏹️ ▶️ John of applications to flourish. Now I can kind of understand where Apple’s come from. They’re like, well, there is no other way to do
⏹️ ▶️ John this. And this is functionality people want and we don’t have a solution for it. So why shouldn’t we let third parties do this?
⏹️ ▶️ John So while we work on screentime or while we figure out what we’re going to do, let’s just allow
⏹️ ▶️ John these third party applications to go on this to go with MDM. In hindsight, that was a mistake because eventually,
⏹️ ▶️ John when Apple comes out with a similar feature, and this is the kernel of truth truth in the story in the New York Times, when Apple comes up with a similar
⏹️ ▶️ John feature, they’d be like, Alright, well, finally, we have screen time. Now we can get rid
⏹️ ▶️ John of all those applications that use MDM and say, please stop doing that, because it’s really not great. And it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s putting parents in a situation where they might not realize but they’re providing third parties with access
⏹️ ▶️ John to their phones that is not great. And like it’s and I know you’re a good company, but really this is
⏹️ ▶️ John not what MDM is for. And the M is for, you know, companies and their employees. So it’s not for parents and their kids. So for
⏹️ ▶️ John the parental situation, you screen time, so on and so forth. That is a bad situation, though, because
⏹️ ▶️ John there remains no other way to provide this functionality and third party app this extent of the
⏹️ ▶️ John functionality and third party app than using MDM. So if Apple says, please, company that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John been in business for a long time and has lots of customers, stop using MDM in your app. It’s like, well, you’re basically
⏹️ ▶️ John telling us to stop selling a wrap because there is no other way for us to do what we do on our app without using MDM.
⏹️ ▶️ John So and how did Apple get into the situation? They allowed these developers to sell their apps
⏹️ ▶️ John using MDM for a long time and be successful. And now they’re saying you have to stop. Basically,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a product killing decision. You know, and the third mistake is when
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has to communicate this. Like, I don’t I don’t know the right way to communicate this
⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s a hard conversation to have to call up a developer and say, yeah, I know you’ve been selling
⏹️ ▶️ John this application for a long time and are very successful with it. But basically, you need to stop selling
⏹️ ▶️ John it because we’re not going to let you use MDM anymore. And there’s no other way for you to provide this
⏹️ ▶️ John functionality. So basically, your product is dead. Sorry about that. Our bad.
⏹️ ▶️ John And by the way, we have a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco screen time. You didn’t say sorry?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Screen time is available, but it’s not as full featured as your application. But it’s built into the OS, and we control
⏹️ ▶️ John it. And that is effectively what is happening to
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of these people who make products like this. But
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no good way to communicate that. You’re going to be sad either way. But perhaps one of the worst ways to communicate
⏹️ ▶️ John that is the passive or aggressive app store rejection way, which is basically to just send terse responses that say
⏹️ ▶️ John something very clinical, that your use of API blah, blah, blah is disallowed.
⏹️ ▶️ John Please remove the use of this application and resubmit. Something like that, that doesn’t, like, that
⏹️ ▶️ John just seems like it was from a machine that says MDM is not allowed, doesn’t acknowledge that it was allowed before, that doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John tell you that Apple understands what this means for your application, right? And this is true of all the
⏹️ ▶️ John App Store frustrations. You’ll do a thing in an app for years and years that Apple thinks is fine, then you’ll do a bug fix update
⏹️ ▶️ John and they’ll reject your application for a feature that’s been there for a year. And with a thing that says, this application
⏹️ ▶️ John does X, please remove X and resubmit. With no acknowledgement, like, but I’ve been doing X for years.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve approved a hundred versions that do X. Communicate to me as a human to tell me what’s going
⏹️ ▶️ John on. You’re just like mechanical rejections, right? Maybe that’s the quote unquote right way to communicate from a legal
⏹️ ▶️ John perspective because it opens you up to less liability because it doesn’t make you, but it’s not the human way to communicate that.
⏹️ ▶️ John And again, maybe there’s no right way. Maybe the wrong approach would try to be human because if you do that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re opening yourself up to legal liability or who knows. I don’t know what goes into the thing behind this.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s a difficult conversation to have, but the difficult conversation stems from earlier decisions that were
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple’s decisions to make that I think they made the wrong call on. So they allowed these stores, these things to be in the
⏹️ ▶️ John store for a long time. Then when it came time to essentially kill a bunch of products, it seems like
⏹️ ▶️ John at least in the few cases of people complaining, it was communicated in the most terse and sort of impersonal
⏹️ ▶️ John way possible and it just makes everybody feel bad, right? So there is, there
⏹️ ▶️ John is fault to go around here, but in the end, Apple is, I think Apple is doing the right thing. MDM shouldn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John be isn’t the right tool for parents to do that. And there is no other better API.
⏹️ ▶️ John And yes, I understand these apps are potentially better and more full featured than screen time. And I know it looks like Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John is killing these things with screen time, but they kind of are. And that’s just part of software. Like if you implement
⏹️ ▶️ John if you are a third party that implements a feature that rightfully should be part of the US, don’t be surprised
⏹️ ▶️ John when eventually it does become part of the US and the app store era or in the not the app store,
⏹️ ▶️ John but in the sort of the privacy focus, security focused error of today. Don’t be surprised also
⏹️ ▶️ John that not only does it get built into the US, but that you are no longer allowed to use whatever weird
⏹️ ▶️ John side door you were using before, because this is a security concern. So I feel bad
⏹️ ▶️ John for these companies and, uh, I also kind of feel bad for Apple, but there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit of a enough land to go around. What I don’t believe is that this is some nefarious, you know, schemes. and say,
⏹️ ▶️ John ha ha, finally we’ll destroy all those companies with our amazing screen time that we bundle for free
⏹️ ▶️ John with our OS. This is not a massive money-making scheme. This
⏹️ ▶️ John is part of Apple’s security focus. And it stems from an earlier
⏹️ ▶️ John mistake. An earlier mistake, by the way, where Apple was being, if you want to look at it, more magnanimous than they should
⏹️ ▶️ John be, of basically saying, we don’t have a solution to this. Why shouldn’t we let third parties use MDM? The answer is
⏹️ ▶️ John because someday you’re going to have to stop them, and then everyone’s going to be sad. But they made a bunch of money in the meantime
⏹️ ▶️ John that they wouldn’t have made if Apple had said, you know what, we don’t have the ability to provide this functionality
⏹️ ▶️ John and we’re not going to let third parties provide it with MDM ever. And so we’ll just all have to wait for iOS 12
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever screen time came in. So tough situation. But
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is not being unnecessarily evil. They’re all just
⏹️ ▶️ John reaping what they sow from past mistakes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel like this is an extension of what we went through a few months ago, or maybe even less than that, with the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps that allowed you to sideload stuff. So there was like, you know, getting…
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh, using enterprise
⏹️ ▶️ Casey certificates, you mean? I feel like the enterprise cert thing was far worse.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was both more nefarious on the vendors, so not Apple, but these
⏹️ ▶️ Casey other people. It was pretty clearly nefarious on their part, and pretty clearly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not in the spirit of what Enterprise search are for. This I do think is more gray, but I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think it’s that dissimilar in ideas that, hey, you’re taking a technology that we really want to use
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for A, B, and C, and you’re using it for, I was going to say X, Y, Z, but maybe that’s a bit aggressive,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but you’re using it for, I don’t know, L and M, and that’s not good. And this analogy is really falling
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John apart. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the point is that it’s using this MDM technology in a way that it’s really not meant for.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And just like John said, like if you get burned for that. Whose fault is that really?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mostly agree with John and a little bit from Casey, except I think that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would be surprised if the development of screen time had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything at all to do with this. I think it’s purely coincidental that it happened to be developed during this because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has been cracking down on things like enterprise distribution,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco abuse, things like VPN apps that maybe shouldn’t be, that are using VPNs to do things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are not really what VPNs are for, apps that are using profiles
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like MDM to do things. This has been a crackdown that’s been going on for a year or something like that. It’s been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco over a while. And I think one thing that became apparent, I think we’ve seen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco signs of this here and there, but I think one thing that became apparent during the Enterprise Certificate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kerfuffle It doesn’t seem like Apple has a great
⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea at decision-making levels of power
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how some of this stuff is being abused. It just, it kind of seems like the App Store is so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big and the ecosystem is so big that sometimes stuff gets through and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t have a super powerful person in the company making a policy decision on every one of these things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s just too big to keep up with. I get the feeling, I think what happens is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco At some point, something is brought to the attention of the higher-ups, whether it’s through the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco press or through internal channels, whatever it is. And then decisions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can be made, and then they’re executed down below again at the lower level of the company where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more people are. That’s kind of the impression I get. And so whenever there’s an app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco store policy change, I think it’s something like that, where somebody in the press or somewhere calls
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, hey, these apps are doing this thing, why are they allowed to do that? and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco someone who matters notices, and they say, hey, that’s wrong, they shouldn’t be allowed to do that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they go tell App Review, hey, get rid of these things, or enforce this policy, or change this policy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s what I think happens. And it’s a big company, it’s a really big company. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lower level people are probably not empowered to be incredibly communicative and verbose
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the outside world. So if the lower level people get a directive like, hey,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this app is doing this thing that we actually don’t want to permit, all they can probably tell
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the developer is, you are being rejected for rule 2.4 point whatever, you know, it’s like, they can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only give those robotic responses probably, because of that’s, you know, policy, and as John said, maybe legal concerns and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything. But what we see from the outside when this happens,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is you have an app in the store, and like if you’re a developer, you have an app in the store, it’s fine,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it gets updated, it goes through app review every couple of weeks when you change something, that’s fine, until it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not. And all you’re getting from Apple is this kind of like stonewall response of either no reason
⏹️ ▶️ Marco given or a very robotic minimal reason given. It’s not really helpful and not really explaining
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like why was this okay last month and now it’s not. So it makes sense on both sides.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like I can totally see, I can understand why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s side of it is the way it is, but the developer side of it, Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what we see on the outside in this kind of situation is terrible. And you might occasionally, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe if you’re lucky, like when you’re on this side of a rule change or reinterpretation,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re lucky, after a while you might get a phone call, which I’ve always termed the Agent Smith
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone calls, because you get a phone call from like the Apple main switchboard number, so you can’t call
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them back. You are not given a name, usually, if ever. You are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco given the bad news from this person, So usually the conversation is usually quite civil, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they will then tell you the reason, basically, during those phone calls. But of course,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s a phone call, you don’t have a solid record of it, really. You can’t really quote them very easily because it was a phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco call. You get this random phone call from Apple that’s like a nice but terse person telling you really what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t do. And then that’s it, and you have no way to ever reach them again. I actually, I heard a rumor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while back that all of those phone calls were made by this one guy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who was like the nicest guy in the world, but was also ex-military and just had like- There was an article about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, I think. Oh, really?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco there was like- Yeah, I heard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he just had like, you know, like the willpower of stone and he could just make these calls and get through them with people,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like probably giving him all sorts of crap on the other end, but he could just get through them and apparently he was super nice and apparently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he stopped doing that job like last year or something like that. Anyway, I don’t know if that’s true, but I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was kind of funny that it’s like this one super nice guy doing all this. Anyway, you know, Apple has this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem of like, they changed a policy, something was allowed, now they don’t want to allow it anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s gonna be uncomfortable, as John said. Developers have this problem of, Apple changes something right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from under us, and we’re getting terrible to no communication on it, and we seem to be powerless.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Both sides of it suck. I think the solution here, you know, it’s never gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be problem free, but Apple has to get way better at the communication
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when this kind of thing happens. they are just horrendous at it. I think their motivations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here were fine. Like I don’t think they were badly motivated. Again, I don’t think this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco had anything to do with screen time at all. I don’t think anybody at Apple at like decision-making
⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-up levels knew about these apps using MDM for this purpose a year ago and said,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re gonna wait till we launch screen time and then kick them out. Like I seriously doubt that. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s plausible and I’ll tell you why. The only reason Apple made screen time because they think it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a feature that users want. That there is something that people want to do with their phones that are not currently able to do,
⏹️ ▶️ John we should make a feature that does that. It’s not like they frivolously add features to iOS. It’s filling a user need. And
⏹️ ▶️ John whoever was on the team to fulfill this need, to say, let’s add
⏹️ ▶️ John this feature to iOS, you have to figure out, OK, what should this feature
⏹️ ▶️ John do? What feature should it have? What functionality should it have?
⏹️ ▶️ John Surely you look at the space and you say, well, Are there any other applications out there that already do something similar?
⏹️ ▶️ John In your exploration of the space, that’s when you discover, hey, there’s 75 applications that do this with millions
⏹️ ▶️ John of downloads, and they all use MDM to do it. At that point, I feel like you now have the knowledge.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it’s still at a high enough
⏹️ ▶️ Marco level, the company like, oh, it’s a big company. That’s two different divisions.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right. I’m saying those people have the knowledge that there’s a bunch of apps out there that are using MDM. And I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ John at that high enough level, team coming up with a feature that’s that’s on the slate for potentially being added to iOS 12
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. At that level, I feel like that that’s enough to disseminate
⏹️ ▶️ John the information to the to the the company at large at the very top. And I think at that point, you have the discussion
⏹️ ▶️ John is like, well, we’re exploring this feature, we looked at the space, we think we’re gonna we think we’re gonna add, you know, these are the
⏹️ ▶️ John bullet points we’re gonna have these are the you know, the, the benefits and the you know, functionality we’re gonna have.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also, We probably also think probably that, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John that these apps are using MDM shouldn’t do it. But let’s not kill those apps yet. Let’s wait until we get screen time
⏹️ ▶️ John out the door because the next consideration is that our users are you know, this need
⏹️ ▶️ John that we think our users have, they’re currently getting it filled by third parties. So let them continue to
⏹️ ▶️ John have the third party apps until we have some semblance of a replacement, then deliver the bad
⏹️ ▶️ John news. I’m not saying this is what happened. I’m saying it’s a plausible scenario where Apple what Apple is trying to do is
⏹️ ▶️ John provide a feature to its users in the safest way possible. And also not screw all those users. Remember, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like what Apple users, developers, the three level hierarchy of apples priorities, right? There’s
⏹️ ▶️ John way more users than developers. So the calculus has to be not like, oh, let’s, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John let’s sneakily wait until screen times out and screw the developers. It’s let’s not screw our millions of users, because our millions of users
⏹️ ▶️ John want this functionality. So until we deliver screen time, let’s just not do anything to that thing, but
⏹️ ▶️ John put it on the agenda for some point after screen time ships to eventually get those MDM apps
⏹️ ▶️ John out of there. Like I think that is a plausible scenario because I think there’s no way Apple implemented this feature without looking at what
⏹️ ▶️ John what exists in the space at a high enough level that the company might know. And again, there’s a I’m ascribing basically
⏹️ ▶️ John kind motivations to everything involved that Apple is looking at trying to find features that are useful to its users.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s thinking of its users who are using third party apps. And then in third place, unfortunately, the
⏹️ ▶️ John who is probably not thinking of that much. But again, the user priority wins. We don’t want
⏹️ ▶️ John a parent putting an app on their kid’s phone that unwittingly gives control to a to the third party developer
⏹️ ▶️ John without the parent understanding exactly what they’ve just given away.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco When I first read the story, I pretty much immediately sided with Apple in my head
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the decision side of it. Like, you know, the communication side, I think, is it was not great. But the decision
⏹️ ▶️ Marco side of it makes total sense to me because like, as an iOS developer, I didn’t even know these apps existed,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if somebody would have asked me, hey, I have an idea for an app, it’s a parental control app that limits how many,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, how long you can run apps on your phone, can I make this? I would have said, no, it’s not possible.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Any iOS developer would know, like, there is no way for apps on your phone to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco look around in your phone and see what other apps are running, or to have any control over that. Like, most developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would assume that’s not possible. And if somebody would, if somebody in, like in the back of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco room would raise their hand and be like, hey, what if we install an MDM profile on every user’s device,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we use that to control these, any experienced iOS developer would be like, well, they’re never gonna allow that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s definitely gonna be against App Store policy. I think it’s like developer, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco experienced iOS developer common sense that this kind of thing would probably not be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco allowed, because that is clearly not what MDM is for. Similar thing with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco VPNs. Like, there’s a lot of apps that were using VPNs to do certain things, and Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cracked down on them over like the last year or so as well. Because that’s a similar kind of tool where it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re taking this tool that is intended for a relatively specific type of use,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you make a VPN like Onavo, like Facebook’s Onavo thing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has pretty horrible privacy implications that most of its users are probably not really gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be aware of and maybe are installing for other reasons. a VPN is not a great
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tool to use for that job or to be permitted to be used that way because that’s not really what it’s for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and most users don’t realize all the power it gives the other party and things like that. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the same reasons that MDM profiles are, I think, common sense,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not allowed to be used in ways like this, VPNs also develop a common sense, shouldn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be allowed to be doing this kind of stuff. And I think Apple’s policy on both of those things has been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slowly tightening, but not outside of the realm of common sense. Like, clearly they are responding
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the problems that we’ve seen over the App Store, like in recent years of like, wow, this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco large scale thing is using this API in a way that we think is creepy. You know, see also enterprise
⏹️ ▶️ Marco certificate abuse, stuff like that. Apple’s finding ways that are being abused like this, and they’re closing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those loopholes. And I don’t think that’s the wrong decision. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only failures are that the loopholes were allowed to be exploited in the first place,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they and the policy change was so badly communicated almost every time.
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#askatp: File naming
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, let’s do some Ask ATP, starting with Keegan
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sands, who writes, what naming convention do you use for directories and files on your Mac? CamelCase, hyphen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey delimiter, underscore delimiter, et cetera. Underscore is good for many things. I just like to put that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out there. Uh, for me, I, uh, I generally just use like the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey windows 95. Oh my God, I can put spaces and capitals and whatever I want in my file name.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will do that. Thank you very much. And so that’s what I do. I use spaces. I don’t have any
⏹️ ▶️ Casey particularly strong feelings about Camel or Pascal case or anything else. I named things
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the most appropriate way I see possible because that’s what the file system
⏹️ ▶️ Casey enables me to do. Uh, I’m going to assume that Marco is slightly more
⏹️ ▶️ Casey particular than me. So let me ask you first.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Um, anything that’s like, like me, like you, like user facing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just use spaces and proper capitalization and it’s fine. Exactly. Um, I, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco will use all lowercase, no spaces using hyphens between words
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for things like developer directory. So things like my git checkouts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like I have like, you know, overcast dash web and it’s all lowercase. That’s, that’s the get checkout. So it’s, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like in the, in the paths that will be used by developer stuff, there’s no spaces
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just because just in case something weird happens, I don’t want to deal with it. Right. So, um,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just for some reason, and like I do the same thing on my servers, like the servers all have like lowercase with dashes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco um, as, as the delimiters and just, you know, because it’s easier on Linux to do things that way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yeah, anything like documents for myself that are just like in my home documents directory or anything that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or stuff on my desktop, that’s all just with spaces and capital letters and stuff, it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think shell scripts are another good example of like all lowercase and hyphens. Yep, me too. Yep, so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there are occasions that that’ll be more particular, but not usually. All right, John, we
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only have but so much time, but please tell me your rules for file naming
⏹️ ▶️ John system? Since more than a decade before Windows 95, I was naming all my files insane ways, because that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John what you can do on a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Mac. And by the way, I was naming
⏹️ ▶️ John them whatever I wanted to name them, literally whatever I wanted to name. There was no part of the file name that
⏹️ ▶️ John I was required to put any sort of secret code in there that the operating system would then interpret and try to take action based on.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco literally name it.
⏹️ ▶️ John What about the colon? I could literally name my files whatever I wanted. No, that’s a forbidden character, but there was no
⏹️ ▶️ John part that if you wrote it, the operating system would look at that part of the file name and interpret it in a weird-ass way that can break things.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You are so, I’ve never met a human being that is more angry about extensions
⏹️ ▶️ John than you are. So angry, forever. Anyway, and how did I actually
⏹️ ▶️ John choose to name them? Mostly title case. Like, you know my obsession with title case. It was mostly title case. You don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John say. Yeah, because they were like the titles of folders. Applications were named essentially in title case
⏹️ ▶️ John since the beginning of the Mac. So that’s the way, you know, everything’s named that way. That said, so the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John now has Unix, two great tastes that taste great together. I do sort of code
⏹️ ▶️ John switching, to pull a word, to code switch slightly here. Code switching, when I’m doing
⏹️ ▶️ John work, if I am working, let’s say, in a programming language that itself has some
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of strong cultural convention for what you name your source files or what you name your directories, or sometimes
⏹️ ▶️ John a mandated convention, like Perl, where the package name corresponds to a directory path that has to
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly match the package name and the language has an informal convention for how packages should be named.
⏹️ ▶️ John I totally use those conventions. Sometimes it’s hard to tell. If you asked a random
⏹️ ▶️ John person might say hyphen separating words all lowercase, some person might say underscores. In the end it doesn’t really
⏹️ ▶️ John matter that much and it’s a cultural thing, but certainly no one would say that the convention for
⏹️ ▶️ John Node.js is to generally do title cases with spaces between words. not the convention.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can do it, but it’s not the convention. So I do code switch. My personal preference
⏹️ ▶️ John if I don’t think I would say in the absence of any other overriding cultural concern for a programming
⏹️ ▶️ John language or environment, what would I choose? But there is no context like that. Like every
⏹️ ▶️ John in every context, whether it’s shell or pearl or C or whatever, there’s some kind of cultural surrounding
⏹️ ▶️ John influence to suggest how you might consider naming your files. And I generally just tend to stick with
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever the dominant and culture is within the thing. Which means that on my Mac, there are a bunch of files and folders
⏹️ ▶️ John and everything that look, you know, that are named the way I want them to be named, especially with extensions hidden.
⏹️ ▶️ John But then there are whole directory trees that are in this sort of culture and parlance
⏹️ ▶️ John of whatever programming language or environment they’re in.
#askatp: Apple’s own AWS?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Patrick writes, with Apple willing to spend big money on controlling important pieces of tech, why are they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey paying so much for AWS instead of making their own cloud? It’s an interesting question, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think Apple has any interest in managing something that,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like their cloud stuff. I mean, they have that huge data center in North
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Carolina, which is used for something. But by and large, I just don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that them doing an AWS clone or an AWS-alike
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really how does that help the user? Because AWS seems by and large
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be pretty good at what it does. I don’t know, John, why am I being wrong? Why am I
⏹️ ▶️ John wrong? This used to be a much less interesting question. If you’d asked the same question a couple of decades ago, it would be like, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John duh. Like there are things that Apple does that are part of its core competency
⏹️ ▶️ John and value proposition and there are things that it asks another company to do, right? It doesn’t decide
⏹️ ▶️ John to run its own construction company to build its buildings. In the current Apple, every example I can
⏹️ ▶️ John think of is actually much more plausible than you might think, but let’s say decades ago. Like it doesn’t, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things- First, Johnny
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco bulldozer. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John There are not, like reinvents concrete. Right. It doesn’t make the machines that make its computers. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t make the bulldozers that mine for the chemicals that go into it. Like Like that’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John what the core competency of the company is. It’s like what is, what should we put our effort and money behind?
⏹️ ▶️ John Outsource things that are not part of your value proposition to a company that does them exclusively and does them
⏹️ ▶️ John better. That’s that’s the way you do things. And practically speaking,
⏹️ ▶️ John both decades ago and today, I’m going to say everybody uses AWS, but the public cloud
⏹️ ▶️ John writ large is extremely popular. If you don’t work for a company
⏹️ ▶️ John that does things online, perhaps you don’t realize how much of all the cool products you use
⏹️ ▶️ John are powered by AWS or to a lesser extent, Azure or Google Cloud.
⏹️ ▶️ John The companies don’t advertise that fact, but that’s how the world works today. And it works
⏹️ ▶️ John that way. Like, why does Netflix use AWS? Why don’t they run all their own data centers? Netflix’s core
⏹️ ▶️ John competency is these days making original content and doing content deals and delivering
⏹️ ▶️ John you a video. is not writing cloud infrastructure to run servers and stuff, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John That is not, you know, like, that’s, that’s not where they want to be spending the money. And
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s, that’s sort of the current business model. But today, with Apple today, it’s a more difficult
⏹️ ▶️ John question because there are very few companies that
⏹️ ▶️ John should be trying to run their own cloud. But arguably, Apple might be one
⏹️ ▶️ John of them that should at least be considering it. Amazon runs its own cloud, it’s called AWS. Google runs its own cloud,
⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft runs its own cloud. Apple is kind of in that camp, and services are a
⏹️ ▶️ John big part of Apple things, and yada, yada, yada. You could still make a very strong argument that Apple should absolutely not
⏹️ ▶️ John be running its own cloud and they should outsource this, but some of its competitors actually
⏹️ ▶️ John do derive advantage from running their own clouds. Google certainly does. Their entire business was
⏹️ ▶️ John founded on the fact that they would run their own data centers and design their own hardware and drill their own machines and do a lot of this stuff, and
⏹️ ▶️ John it gives them an advantage, both in terms of cost and innovation and lots of lots of other areas. Amazon
⏹️ ▶️ John has an advantage because you know, they, they built AWS is kind of this weird
⏹️ ▶️ John side business. Now it is a huge business because as I said, every other freaking company in the world is using the public cloud to run their
⏹️ ▶️ John businesses on and that’s a pretty darn good business. Look at like Bezos is like a yearly report or whatever. Any
⏹️ ▶️ John of us is a good business. It’s nice to have a, you know, it’s maybe it’s not an iPhone size business, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a big business and it’s nice to have that. And by the way, there’s synergy between that business and when Amazon
⏹️ ▶️ John does and all that other stuff. Apple, a lot of the same things are true. It would gain both a cost and
⏹️ ▶️ John innovative innovation advantage to running its own cloud. It if they decided to ever sell
⏹️ ▶️ John their services like Google and Microsoft and Amazon do, that could be a big business. But
⏹️ ▶️ John on the other hand, it’s also a crowded market and Apple is not traditionally being particularly good at this. But on the other other
⏹️ ▶️ John hand, maybe they should be good at it. So it is way more complicated question today than it
⏹️ ▶️ John used to be. Used to be the answer super simple, nobody should run their own cloud, it’s stupid. Today the answer is,
⏹️ ▶️ John nobody should run their own cloud, except maybe Apple might think about it. Like there’s like five
⏹️ ▶️ John companies in the world that should run their own cloud and Apple might be one of them. So I think this is an interesting question
⏹️ ▶️ John and I don’t think it’s a really good answer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I think it’s even simpler than that. I mean, this is a role
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is easily outsourced because it is separate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from, like it’s easy to separate this role out of dumb server stuff or dumb online services.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s easy to outsource that to AWS or various companies like AWS. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s hard for Apple to build that up to a large scale
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasonably quickly. Apple’s cloud needs and backend needs have grown
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a ton over the last decade. Apple itself seems to have a lot of trouble multitasking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a company in general. They seem to have a lot of trouble scaling their company, scaling their headcount in particular,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they just seem like they don’t do that very quickly or very easily. And when they try, it seems like they have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco trouble. This seems like an easy thing to take this big, boring, highly commoditized
⏹️ ▶️ Marco role and have someone else do it for us. Because not only can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we then not build all that out ourselves and save some headcount and save some complexity
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there, it’s also possible that Amazon can do it cheaper than we can.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not, you’ve spoken like someone who hasn’t paid a big AWS bill lately.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they certainly can do it cheaper, but it won’t be cheaper to you, because they charge a profit
⏹️ ▶️ John margin on those things.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They do, but it’s a highly commoditized market that’s very competitive and easily switched between
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John providers if you’re using it right. Not
⏹️ ▶️ John as commoditized as you would think it is. Like, there’s, it really depends. Like, I see
⏹️ ▶️ John what, like, you’re making the argument for the old Apple, but I think what you’re really saying is Apple’s so late to the market that it’s too late for them to
⏹️ ▶️ John be competitive, but.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, both. Like, I’m saying that they are pretty late to this market, especially as you mentioned,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this is not historically an area where they’ve been incredibly competent or cared very strongly to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco become competent. So like, this is something that they don’t really value much as a company.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, the whole thing of like, you know, like the, I think the Tim Cook doctrine of like, we want to do things that we can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco add value to, they can’t add value to data center
⏹️ ▶️ John they could, like if they did what Google did. Google and Amazon both add value to that, but they add value to their own
⏹️ ▶️ John businesses and they add value in terms of they sell it to other people. It’s a good business and what Google does,
⏹️ ▶️ John how they can make their, Google paid for AWS, it would cost them so much money. And
⏹️ ▶️ John by the way, they’d also be paying a potential competitor, right? Google does their own stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re Google and they do it really, really well for their own purposes. Google Cloud is
⏹️ ▶️ John a good example. Google Cloud is the best example Apple shouldn’t do. Google has their public cloud service
⏹️ ▶️ John And even though I think Google has best in class, best in the entire world, data center management and systems
⏹️ ▶️ John for their own stuff, like the Google search engine and all that other stuff, they are behind Amazon
⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of selling that to the public because they came in too late. And if Google’s having trouble catching
⏹️ ▶️ John AWS, what chance does Apple have, right? But that’s kind of the pessimistic taste. And on the other hand,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple was considering making a car. So like we live in a strange world.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, good point. Yeah, I think, I think, honestly, I think Apple should
⏹️ ▶️ John have already been in on the public cloud and many, many years ago, but they haven’t. So maybe it is
⏹️ ▶️ John too late, but I think it is not. It’s not entirely slam dunk. And depending
⏹️ ▶️ John on how this shakes out long term, Apple may seriously regret not getting into
⏹️ ▶️ John the space because I can tell you that there’s a lot of money to be made selling
⏹️ ▶️ John these services to other people. AWS bills really add up and
⏹️ ▶️ John No matter who you go to who’s got Apple gonna go to their public cloud. They’re not gonna run their own They’re either gonna pay Microsoft Google
⏹️ ▶️ John or Amazon That’s not a great situation to be in and they’re gonna pay them a lot of money That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re gonna be a big that’s not a good situation to be in for Apple Like you don’t want to be it’s kind of like Google paying Apple billions of
⏹️ ▶️ John dollars to be the default search on iOS It’s you really don’t want to be giving
⏹️ ▶️ John that much money to your competitors especially when they know they kind of have you over a barrel, because what are you going to do?
⏹️ ▶️ John Move all your crap from AWS into Azure? It’s not an easy lift.
#askneutral: Top 10 sports cars
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, this next piece of Ask ATP has been lingering in our document
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for probably two or three months and we keep just putting it off, putting it off, putting it off, putting it off.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But sometime forever ago, Paul Wood III wrote, hey, you know, John Roderick
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has, and Merlin, I guess is what he was intending, have discussed their top 10 sports
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cars on Roderick on the Line. Can we get that list on ATP and hear from Marco and Casey
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as well? Oh, did you discuss this with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Roderick, John? Yeah, when he
⏹️ ▶️ John was on RECTIFS a while back, I think we talked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. Ah, okay, right, right. So anyway, so I put this in the show notes and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then apparently John has added a tweet wherein this was already decided in 2016.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So would you like to tell me about that,
⏹️ ▶️ John John? Yeah, I think that’s when I had Roderick on Reconcilable Differences with me and we discussed this and I think I tweeted
⏹️ ▶️ John about it. My list hasn’t changed that much. I start, this is the list
⏹️ ▶️ John I put in the tweet and it’s tweet length so you can’t go into super detail, But there are nuances to it. And it was like
⏹️ ▶️ John top 10. I don’t think I came up to 10. But my list is basically,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll describe it. And then we can fill in the variables later. Like whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John the current mid-engine Ferrari V8 sports car
⏹️ ▶️ John is, like whatever the latest model, that’s usually on my list. So at the time, it was a 488. But now it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the, what the hell is the thing called? Tributo, F8 Tributo, or something like that. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever that one is, the current one, that one keeps changing. Then the Ferrari 458, because it’s the last naturally
⏹️ ▶️ John aspirated iteration of that model line. BMW M3, but I mean
⏹️ ▶️ John the M3 that was around in like the, what I always forget is the E46 is the one that I like, the one that was around,
⏹️ ▶️ John that was new in like 95, 96. I think it’s- That’s E36. No, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s the E46 is the one I like.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, E46 was early 2000s.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I like, whatever the one is
⏹️ ▶️ John that has the little slats by the M3 badge.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know which one you’re talking about. Are you talking about a Rich Seagulls M3? Because that’s an E46. If you’re talking about a little boxier
⏹️ ▶️ Casey than that, it’s E36. Yeah, it’s Rich Seagulls, E46.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s early 2000s. Yeah, that’s the M3 that I’m talking about. Mercedes S600, which I didn’t put a year
⏹️ ▶️ John on that, but it varies from year to year. Sometimes I like them, I don’t like them. But what I’m basically saying is the big
⏹️ ▶️ John V12, ridiculously huge Mercedes sedan that’s like driving a living room, that
⏹️ ▶️ John one. I had Tesla Model S on here in 2016, but honestly I think I would remove that now because I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John really down on Tesla and I’m just angry and scared of the company. And then of course, McLaren F1,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, for me, I thought the, well, I have to explain
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty much all of these. The C3 Corvette, which is like the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mid to late 70s-ish, which by most standards is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the worst, if not the worst Corvette of all time. However, my dad had a 77 Vette for a long
⏹️ ▶️ Casey time when I was growing up, which I probably told that story about 15 times on this show and on Neutral. But the C3 Corvette,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would love to have one of those. The Z32, so this is the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nissan 300ZX from the early 1990s. I had a 91 non-turbo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey many, many years ago. I love that car. I don’t regret selling that car, but I regret selling that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey car. An Aston Martin DBS of pretty much any vintage, something modern,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I should say, but be that brand new or five years old or 10 years old, whatever, I’d be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fine with it. Lamborghini Diablo, I don’t care what specific flavor of the Diablo, but that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was my ultimate car when I was really coming of age, when I was a little kid, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I loved that thing. Even though I’m sure I would hate to drive it, I would still love to have one. E39
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M5, because it’s been one of my favorite cars of all time pretty much since the moment I laid eyes on it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I echo your V8 mid-engine Ferraris like the 488 or what have you. I echo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your McLaren F1 and I’d also I would love to you know have a Bugatti Veyron just because I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it would be a cool thing to have as… Puke.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So ugly. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco pretty. It looks pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool in person. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one in person. I do not like that car.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just feel like it’s the we spared no expense version of the automobile and I kind
⏹️ ▶️ John that. Well they spare no pound that’s for sure. Well they spare no expense.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Brutal. Alright Marco hit me.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright you’re gonna hate my list.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was gonna have an MR2 on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s good. One of the entries I begin with quote Ferrari whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know enough about Ferraris to say which
⏹️ ▶️ John one. You should get a Ferrari California for this your punishment for putting that on the list.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh god. Yeah cuz I I know I should I should want them because they’re like the driver enthusiasts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco car, but I don’t know anything about them. So I figured I’d let John pick my Ferrari.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, current mid-engine. Actually, I would just wait or I would get the 458.
⏹️ ▶️ John Those are your two choices.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, whatever you said that. I also thought in the, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I like my large, fast, electric cars. Like, I like that. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have Model S, Model 3, the Porsche Taycan, or is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it the Mission… Wait,
⏹️ ▶️ John why are you putting Model 3 on the list? Why Why would you want, you have a Model S, why would you want a Model 3, which is just
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco okay. No, you didn’t. I didn’t have 10. I just listed good ones. Don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worry about that. Don’t worry about that. Don’t get that Model 3 off my list. All right, so Model S, Porsche Taycan, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M5. I thought, like, you know, I had one, it was great, and I haven’t tried the new one yet. The new one’s really good, they say. Right, and so that would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be certainly on the list to consider. I like large stands. In the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco smaller category, I’m very curious about the new Tesla Roadster.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not enough to buy one, but it looks pretty cool. Also Aston Martin, whatever, you know, Casey can tell
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me which Aston Martin to get. And then also, I’ve never been in one, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not sure that I would actually enjoy it, but I find the BMW i8 very attractive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in person. I think it looks striking,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, in person. I would agree with that. The other thing, and I’ve said this in other places, I think, but the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey other car that I think does not photograph terribly well, but I think is gorgeous in person,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey those do not like the look of those on paper, but I think they are very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John pretty. They look
⏹️ ▶️ John better in person than they do in photos, but it is not to my taste. I can’t handle the two-tone panel on the side. It’s just…
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, I can understand that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It definitely, it allows for some pretty ugly color combos. They aren’t all ugly.
⏹️ ▶️ John And even when it’s not, there’s a texture difference there that bothers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me. And then finally, in the small, fast, like kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enthusiast category, I have the Porsche Cayman, which I’ve also never been in, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve heard they’re wonderful to drive and they’re mid-engine,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve never driven. And so I’m curious about that. The only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco downside with the Cayman is that you’re basically sitting on the ground from what I can tell. And so my final pick
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the BMW M2. I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were gonna pick a cheaper Wrangler. No, because the M2, it seems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very similar to the 1M that I had, and that was a really fun car. And what I especially liked about the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 1M is that it was a small, fast, sporty car, but that you were sitting at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco regular sedan height, not like sitting on the ground. And the M2 appears to basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be like the next version of that. And so I’m very curious to possibly try one of those. Ultimately though, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so converted to electric at this point, what I really want BMW to make is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an electric 2-series, but they don’t seem interested in doing that anytime soon. Well, thanks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to our sponsors this week, Hover, Ero, and Clear, and we will see you next week.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes
⏹️ ▶️ John at ATP.FM And if you’re into Twitter,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and T. Marco Armin,
⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to
⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, tech podcast so long
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was summoned to jury duty this week.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I recognize this is not a popular opinion. I really hate jury duty. It makes me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what some would call unreasonably angry. I call it perfectly reasonable.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really don’t like jury duty and I recognize why we do it the way we do. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s an incredibly broken imperfect system and not the right solution. But that’s just me. And everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco else seems to care about it a lot more than I do, so I’ll just stop my complaining there. Going to jury duty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes me very angry. I don’t like going, I don’t like being there, I especially
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t like how much they spend all this time showing you videos and stuff that thank you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for going. Because I don’t think it’s dignified to be thanked for something you were forced
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to attend. That seems insulting at best
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to legally kidnap me, force me to be there, and then say thanks for coming. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco last time I served jury duty, I never got to a trial. It just basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made me wait in a jury waiting room to be maybe called to a courtroom for a few
⏹️ ▶️ Marco days. Eventually, I believe I even talked about it on the show, eventually I was called up for a court,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into a courtroom, and I was kicked out during Vardir because I said I didn’t trust authority.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey forgotten about that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yes. Yeah. Anyway, but the vast majority of the time was not even in a courtroom. It was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sitting in a jury waiting room with other potential jurors with nothing to do. And these are federal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco courts that I get summoned to. This is the Southern District of New York federal court. and the federal courts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are extremely strict that you cannot bring any kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of electronics into the courtroom and so last or into the building
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even and so as I was sitting there last time in this jury waiting room, I had nothing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do like I I had printed out articles to read and I brought like a magazine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or two and I had just totally under provisioned for like how much material
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would need for the amount of time that I was going to be there.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a good thing you’re such an avid reader of novels so you have plenty to fill your time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like so, anyway, so last time I was dramatically underprepared and I was bored out of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my mind and I was super mad which made it even worse. So this time I wanted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do it right. Now, as John mentioned, I think a normal person’s solution to this would be to bring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a book. And this time I did. I brought the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Creativity Inc book that John recommended, because I said, I’m gonna bring a book this time, damn it. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t like reading books very much. So I wanted more options than that. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for my mental health, I wanted a way to have my two favorite
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things, music and podcasts. Now, you might assume, as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one would, that I was out of luck, because you aren’t allowed to bring electronic devices to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco jury duty. And that makes sense in people’s picture of jury duty where they picture you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco immediately going to a courtroom and sitting and being paying attention. You wouldn’t want jurors using their phones during a trial.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s all true. But that isn’t what jury duty is. That’s what jury
⏹️ ▶️ Marco duty really is, at least in this federal court. I keep being summoned to because it’s random law is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you go and sit in this room for a long time, possibly for days without going to a courtroom.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you’re basically just sitting in a waiting room. I see no harm in having electronics in that room.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I decided to, this time, try to push the boundaries a little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey could bring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something that could play music and podcasts while I was in this waiting room, waiting around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do nothing. And ideally, I was even thinking like, it’d be nice if I could have an e-reader
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something so I wouldn’t have to carry around paper books. I have a few e-books I’d like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to read. I didn’t own any paper books that I really wanted to read that I haven’t yet, so I don’t want to just buy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a paper book just to bring here, like if I have e-books that I can read. So I’d like to bring an e-reader if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possible, and something that can play mp3s, and maybe one device that can do both would be ideal.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I decided to be a lawyer about it, like I looked at the exact wording of what the rule was.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The summons that you get in the mail, it says, and I quote, do not bring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco electronic equipment, cell phones, BlackBerrys, PDAs,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptops, and the like to the courthouse. So of course, I mean my first question is like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s the last time somebody tried to bring a BlackBerry or a PDA in the courthouse? But like, so it says do not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bring electronic equipment including blah blah blah and the like. Electronic equipment is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very broad, but there’s a lot of it that is not like those things.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like is a digital watch electronic equipment that’s like PDAs, laptops, and Blackberries?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No. What about a Fitbit? One question is, what about an e-reader?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is that like a cell phone, PDA, or laptop? Maybe, maybe not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the good thing is that I called, that you have to like call the night before to listen to a recording
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see if you actually have to go in that day, and the phone message had different wording. Matthew Feeney
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh God. Tim Cynova It said, no pocket knives, cell phones, Blackberries,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or internet capable devices
⏹️ ▶️ John are allowed in the court. Oh, that last one that killed what I was going to say because you were mentioned digital watches and there is a kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of watch that you can use to listen to both music and podcasts. But unfortunately, it is internet capable,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? So I saw I don’t I don’t have a pocket knife. That one’s easy. You don’t have a pocket knife. No, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a knife person. No cell phones, BlackBerry’s or internet capable devices. Okay,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now this is much more specific. Internet capable. Okay, so nothing with cellular obviously,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing with Wi-Fi either. It’s questionable what they mean by internet capable, but you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco let’s say nothing with Wi-Fi either. Now, there’s also a separate rule that you aren’t allowed to have image or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sound recording devices in a courtroom. So nothing with a camera or microphones.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So before I move on, if you were in this position, what if anything would you bring?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The obvious answer is some sort of portable turntable,
⏹️ ▶️ John duh. You could bring a five-piece band.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s true. There’s nothing about musical
⏹️ ▶️ John instruments. Nobody says you can’t bring a wedding band in with you and just entertain the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire waiting room. Can I bring Mike and Jason to come have a conversation in front of
⏹️ ▶️ John me about the Apple News of the week? Yeah, and then the podcasting, you just bring a bunch of people who will sit behind a table and talk.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s awesome. Casey,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what would you bring? All kidding aside, I would certainly bring a backpack
⏹️ ▶️ Casey full of magazines and novels and and so on and so forth. Like if I couldn’t bring a Kindle, then I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey would bring a series of novels or something like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So e-reading was the first thing I tried to tackle. So an e-reader is probably the easiest thing to get away with.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The problem is, no Kindle has ever been made that doesn’t have either Wi-Fi, cellular,
⏹️ ▶️ John both. I was gonna say, they’re all internet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco capable. Yes, now the old Sony readers were neither of those things. The old Sony readers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would pass this test, but I believe I mailed mine to you, John, years ago
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as part of packing material with other Kindles around it. I had one Sony reader like forever ago
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can’t really buy them quickly these days. So I thought a Kindle would probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not pass the test, but what matters isn’t whether something has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wi-Fi, but whether a courtroom security guard is likely to know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it has Wi-Fi. So I figured I could actually probably get away with a Kindle,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but what I really wanted ideally, I figured trying to carry a bunch of stuff in there was risky.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wanted to only try to get one thing past them that was a questionable electronic device. So I really wanted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a Kindle with a headphone jack so I could also play music and podcasts from it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the only problem is I gave all those to John too. Many Kindles have headphone jacks. I don’t own
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any of them right now. The only one I right now, the only Kindle I own is a first generation Oasis.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not the current, the current one’s the second generation. And the first generation Oasis has no audio output at all. So if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all it could do for me was the reading functions and just replace like a book, well I could just bring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a book. Like that’s not that big of a deal. If this device is only gonna replace one book, it isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth the risk if it can’t also be an audio player. Now I looked, the newest Kindles
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all support Bluetooth audio output. That could be great, except that they only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco support this for Audible audiobooks, but in the Audible app on the Kindle. So previous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Kindles, back when they had headphone jacks, you could sideload music onto its memory by just like plugging it in through
⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB to your computer. You could like put music in a folder and it could play it. Modern Kindles can’t do that anymore apparently.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I didn’t actually have one that could do this to test with, but the information I could find basically said
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they will only play stuff from the Audible app, you can’t load stuff on them anymore. So I couldn’t like load podcasts onto them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So between that and you know, my situation here, I figured e-readers were not gonna work out. They have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too little upside for too much risk. So I decided to stick with paper for my reading needs and only try to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco solve for music and podcasts electronically. The correct modern solution, as John alluded
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a minute ago, would probably be an Apple Watch with AirPods. But the Apple Watch has Wi-Fi,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of them have cellular, and they all have microphones. And the Apple Watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is instantly recognizable to most people, and most people know that Apple Watches
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are kind of like phones, and they have phone-like features. So I think any security guard,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would be a pretty high risk. Like they’re probably not gonna let an Apple Watch through because they know an Apple Watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like a phone. And Bluetooth, again, I wasn’t sure if I could really rely on that. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not usually used to provide an internet service, although it can be. It’s also, it is a wireless
⏹️ ▶️ Marco electronic communication method and I figured the guards probably wouldn’t be willing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to debate this with me. You know? So I actually,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought a little music player would be ideal. I actually have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little Sony music player that is otherwise perfect
⏹️ ▶️ Marco except that it’s very obviously an audio recorder. That’s what it really is. It has these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco two giant microphones on the top and it has a giant red record button on the front. So I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco figured that was too risky because you aren’t allowed to record stuff so clearly that was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a good idea. So what I needed really was was an iPod. You know, something that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco looks old and basic enough that any security guard would recognize
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it as just a music player. And they would know this has no internet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or phone capabilities whatsoever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was hoping you were going to say a Rio PMP 300 like I had way back in the day. Or Nomad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Were you one of the Nomad people? I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco don’t remember. No,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I briefly had one of the ones that was a big hard drive, but it wasn’t the Nomad brand. It was another brand. I forget which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one it was, but it was some other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey brand. Well, it was a creative something something nomad, is that right? You know what I’m thinking of, right? The
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco looks like a disk
⏹️ ▶️ Marco man. Yeah, you’re thinking of the creative nomad jukebox, which is the one that looks like a fat disk man and it had like a 5 gig hard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had one that was by a different company that had a hard drive. Then I had one that played MP3 CDRs, which is much better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, I decided iPod is the way to go here. People recognize iPods, they know what they look like.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They know what they are and they know what they aren’t. And they know it’s clearly just an iPod, right? So that’s what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wanted. Problem is, we don’t have a working iPod. Whoops. And most, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Tiff has her own iPod mini, but it’s, I don’t even think we have a 30-pin cable anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, I don’t think I could plug it in if I wanted to, and I’m pretty sure the battery would be dead, because most iPods that are still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco around today have batteries that are like 10 or 15 years old, and so they can’t hold a charge anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you can actually still today buy new iPods that are refurbished
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with new batteries. The problem is, these are like $200 and up. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iPod Nano refurbished with a new battery is like $180 for most places. A small price to pay.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they retailed for $150 when they were new. They’re actually more than MSRP now. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iPod Classic, they’re even more. iPod Classics are like over $300 for one in good shape that has a new battery.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I also thought, though, looking at the iPod Nano availability, the seventh generation Nano, the latest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one, is the one that looks like a tiny iPhone. Like it has the home button and a big touch screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I figured the security guards might not let that one through because it was never very popular. Like by the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time that came out, iPhones were taken over. So like it wasn’t very popular and it looks like a small phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I figured there’s actually a risk. So the one I really wanted was the fifth generation. That was the last
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one that had the iconic iPod Nano shape with the screen on top and the buttons
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a circle below it. Like that’s the last one that looks like, you know, the iPod shaped iPod was the seventh generation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPod Nano or the, sorry, the fifth generation iPod Nano. Problem is those were, those were again, like $200 for a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco refurbished one with a new battery. And I was like, am I going to spend $200 on something that the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco next time I need this thing, it’s probably going to be when they call me back in another five years
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and five years from now, will that battery still work? And more importantly, will I still be able
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to sync files to an iPod using iTunes in five years?
⏹️ ▶️ John not. Let’s just all sit back and appreciate the fact that you are even considering making
⏹️ ▶️ John a one-time $200 purchase for a single day activity that may repeat every five years. Correct.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just appreciate that. It felt rich to me. This is what it’s like to be Marco. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, honestly, the price really put me off. If it was like $50, I would have done
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no question. 200 felt a little ridiculous for this purpose. But the good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing is, I am not the first person to have ever wanted a cheap iPod.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The iPod spawned a thousand clones, and many of them are still around today
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and still being made, still brand new, and because it is 2019, they cost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically nothing. So I’ll put in the show notes the one I shows
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I bought the AGP Tech MP3 player 8GB Bluetooth 4.0 upgraded
⏹️ ▶️ Marco A02T lossless sport music player with FM radio voice recorder expandable up to 228 gigs black for kids and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco adult voice recorder. So I selected this one in part because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it looked very similar to an iPod Nano also in part because I was ordering
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it on a Saturday and it was guaranteed to arrive on Sunday
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in part because it was $26. I should clarify the price has since gone to $29
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but when I bought it was $26. Now John noticed a few problematic keywords.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It does have Bluetooth and it does include a little microphone to make voice recordings but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco neither of those things were visually apparent. The microphone as far as I don’t even test where it was but there’s a small hole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the back of it I think that’s the microphone it might not even even be it might just be like it might just use
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a microphone that’s on the earbuds if you happen to be using like a TRS earbud set so I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know I never tried the voice recorder
⏹️ ▶️ John I assume it was recording everything and transmitting it back to a day center in China the whole time you were there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so maybe so anyway
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Bloomberg said anyway right yeah exactly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so because the voice recorder aspect of it was not visually apparent at all and I wasn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even sure it even had a microphone. I figured that would probably not be a problem. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I loaded it up and you know it’s there is no sync software to be had you just you plug
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in and it’s a USB device and you copy stuff over to folders on it. It’s great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I load it up with music. I put some podcasts on it and I wrapped an old wired
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pair of white Apple earbuds around it like it’s 2005 you know and I brought to the courthouse.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now they were very very clear in the instructions. don’t even bring your phone into the building.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just don’t even bring it with you that day at all or leave it in your car. So I left it locked in my glove box because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wasn’t gonna not bring it, obviously. I gotta get there somehow.
⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t leave your phone in your car. That’s not, I mean, you probably got away with it because, you know, whatever, and the Tesla is kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of climate controlled, but that’s bad for your phone. Don’t leave your phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in your car. Sorry. Anyway, so I left it in the glove box, locked up. The first thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had to do was figure out where to park. I had to go into a big municipal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco city parking garage, and I had my phone until I parked, but then I had to leave my phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the car. So the first thing I had to do was figure out how to pay for this parking. And there’s signs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up saying, remember your parking spot. My usual solution to this would be to take a picture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the parking spot. And if not that, I would at least usually take a picture of the sign
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the elevator that told me what floor I was on and whether it’s east or north or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I couldn’t do those things. I had to like, I like, my short term memory for these things is gone. Like I, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco skill I have to remember parking spots is gone. Because I haven’t used it in, you know, what, 10 years?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I, I took out a notebook and a pencil, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had to buy for this trip. Oh my gosh. This
⏹️ ▶️ John is where you need the Mike Hurley in your life. You got a bunch of expensive hipster notebooks and a million pens.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, well fortunately I have Tiff, but our tastes aren’t, they don’t overlap that much in this
⏹️ ▶️ John I need a gigantic sparkly fountain pen to write down what parking spot you’re in.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so I took out a brand new notebook and a brand new mechanical
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pencil and I had to write down my parking spot and everything.
⏹️ ▶️ John Couldn’t you just look for the big red Tesla? I mean, how many other red Teslas were there in the parking lot at the time?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was lost, man, it was terrible. And so anyway, so I eventually found the pay
⏹️ ▶️ Marco station in the elevators and everything and I paid and I couldn’t use Apple Pay. I had to use my credit card like an animal.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then I had to find the courthouse from the parking garage,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which was about a block and a half or two away. And so I walked out of the parking garage
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and basically immediately got lost. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco walked up and down the block, went different directions, and I’m like, where the hell? I had already forgotten even the name
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the street that the courtroom was on.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, you should have just printed map quest directions like we did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John back in the day.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I used to do. You just need a haggstrom is what you need. You should have driven there without navigation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too. Yeah right. And so like eventually I found like somebody was walking by in a suit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I figured he probably knows where the courthouse is. So he’s wearing a suit on a weekday morning.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I asked him like, hey you know where the courthouse is? And I couldn’t have lucked out with a better guy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco He points like across like diagonally across the street and he’s like that one’s county, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one city and around the corner from that one is federal like great. All right, thanks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so I went to the around the corner one eventually found the federal like I thank God I would never would have found it on my own like it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was I was going to walk around a very long time before finding that so it’s like finally like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m a human without a phone like I’m totally lost. Finally, I find this place
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I of course I I’m so mad when I get there that to do all this that I immediately want to take a picture of myself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco outside the courtroom or outside the building like flipping it off and realize I had no camera with me and couldn’t do that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like oh here we go modern life tracks again
⏹️ ▶️ John you can still flip off the building even with no camera there to record it it’s not the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John anyway so so the so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I get in go through security the security guards seem pretty nice and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know take everything out to get everything to get And then he glanced at the mp3 player and initially he said he gave it a quick
⏹️ ▶️ Marco glance and he said no electronics but of course I was Trying to get I’m like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just an mp3 player sir And and he stopped for a minute and he looked more closely at it because you could tell you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know It’s like like it’s like TSA like they get they have to say the same thing a million times to everybody
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who comes in So they’re sick of it Then they’re not really thinking when they first say it He actually took a look at it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and he realized it looks like an iPod nano with white headphones wrapped around it and he He
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like asked the guard in the next lane over, like, hey, we allow these now, right? And so they mumbled
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to each other, and then he waved me through. He said, all right, it’s fine. So I had it, I got it through. I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco able to bring an iPod-like MP3 player into the courthouse,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it was fine. So I can tell you finally, with my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco day of using it in the waiting room, which fortunately, they sent us home early, and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we were done, and I don’t have to go back. Because it turns out, this week,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there weren’t a lot of cases needing juries in white planes. So it was a short, I only actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco needed it for like two thirds of a day. But, in my two thirds of a day of using it,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can tell you my review of the AGP Tech A02T $26 MP3 player in 2019.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Please carry on. It looks and feels like a $26
⏹️ ▶️ Marco device. The body of it is that like, that like cheap,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco soft touch, rubbery plastic, you know what I’m talking about? Yeah. Like it’s, like every, every super cheap
⏹️ ▶️ Marco device is made from that now. Um, the screen is horrendous looking, like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco resolution is terrible, the viewing angle, like I don’t think there is a good angle to view it. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just, if there is, I couldn’t find it. Um, none of the buttons or switches feel remotely good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use. The buttons only work about two-thirds of the time,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and lots of navigation just requires like, you know, oh, just push it again. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my kicking machine, like just push it again and it’ll solve the problem. It doesn’t support the remote control
⏹️ ▶️ Marco clicker buttons on the iPod headphones for like volume up and down or play pause,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I immediately missed. For listening to podcasts, I had, using
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a command line tool, of course, I had pre processed the files to bacon smart speed. Of course,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you did, but they were all still at one X and there was no easy 30 seconds
⏹️ ▶️ Marco skip forward and back buttons, so it wasn’t really ideal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for podcasts. The device has some other issues as well upon boot up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about one out of five times. It says no files found, which is terrifying when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’ve loaded this up to go to jury duty but then you just wait a second and they’re all there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sometimes it doesn’t resume from sleep and needs to be power cycled. When you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do this, this is one of many conditions I found where it will lose the position in whatever you’re listening to.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which is another thing that made listening to podcasts fairly non-ideal on this device. It does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco support video playback, but it only plays 128 by 160 AMV files.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What? If you look up AMV on Wikipedia, this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John is actually a format. That’d
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a music video? No, it’s actually a format that’s like, it’s made for like cell phones and like certain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things use a certain type of chip set that’s optimized to play only that. And it came with a sample
⏹️ ▶️ Marco video. So I was able to look at that video like an FFMPEG and it’s like, what is this? What are the specs in this? but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have been unable to encode any other videos that it’ll actually play for whatever it’s worth.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you play a video, normally to get out of what you’re doing, you would hit the menu
⏹️ ▶️ Marco button, like the M button on top. If you do that, it shows you a menu, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco none of the options are like quit. It took me a long time to figure out how to exit video playback mode.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the options is update playlist. That’s how you leave. Oh my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco goodness. So, you know, for video,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not so good. Podcasts, not so good. For music, it’s fine. You know, not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great, but fine. To play or pause, you often need to wake it up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first, which often involves multiple button presses that often get lost or ignored.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And my favorite thing is adjusting volume. To change the volume, which is a fairly common action
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you often have to do quickly, You have to wake it up, so hit play or pause maybe one to five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco times over the course of a few seconds to wake it up. Then you have to, there’s a volume button on the bottom,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but if you push it, nothing happens. You have to hold it down for a few seconds to enter the volume
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you hit up or down a few times to your desired volume level, then you hit play to be like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enter to set it. So this thing is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty much a piece of garbage, but it worked and I was able to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slowly and clumsily listen to music and podcasts while I waited around all day
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do nothing in jury duty and that was totally worth 26 dollars to me.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So while this is a terrible product in absolute terms, I would actually say it’s a pretty good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco value and I still I find it amazing just like in modern life that I decided
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wanted an mp3 player I found one in a few seconds I ordered it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a Saturday and it was delivered on Sunday for $26 that’s pretty cool
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is pretty cool
⏹️ ▶️ John should have tried an iPod shuffle because I know you about the battery that is really old and it won’t hold a charge but like the shuffle
⏹️ ▶️ John does everything you describe better retains your playback position easy to change the volume wakes up
⏹️ ▶️ John instantly does all the things you’re supposed to do and is is much less likely to be flagged as electronics by a
⏹️ ▶️ John random security guard. That’s what I would have gone with. But I didn’t have one. You don’t have a Shuffle
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the house somewhere? No, the only iPod we own is Tiff’s old Mini. What happened to all the other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones? You sold them all? I never had that many. I think we had a total of two Shuffles
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever, and at least one of them died. I don’t know whether I have any other one. We had Tiff’s iPod Mini,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I had a iPod Video, the 5G, I think, whatever the first video one was. I had that one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s it, I never owned a Nano, neither did TIFF, and I never owned any other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco classic ones except for the video, and that was it. And that one, I think that one died like 10 years
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ago or something. It died not recently.
⏹️ ▶️ John Probably could have found a Chinese knockoff iPod Shuffle, but then that wouldn’t have actually worked.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like an actual Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John iPod Shuffle would work. Yeah. It’s kind of amazing that they can screw that up that badly. And the volume changing
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, when you go into the volume menu and change it, do you get to hear what the new volume sounds like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changing it? Yes, but you have to hit the enter play button to exit the volume menu.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So are you holding onto this for the next jury duty experience?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I might as well. I mean, it’s more likely to work in five years than an ancient iPod.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well, we’ll see. Put it in the box
⏹️ ▶️ John that says jury duty and you’ll open it up and it’ll just be an exploded battery.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, the plastic will all be like liquefied.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh gosh. Now I’m also wondering If you were to do this again tomorrow
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the sake of discussion, would you be spending any time splitting your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey podcast MP3s like in every minute so it’s easier to seek effectively
⏹️ ▶️ Casey back to where you left off or like mark to yourself where you’ve left off because you say that it loses
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your place a lot and it’s just not a very good music player. So that’s something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my dad used to do all the time with like audio books that he would download via MP3
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that, that he would slice them up so that instead of having each file be like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, a chapter or something like that, instead each file would be like 30 seconds or a minute or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what have you so that it was easier for him to come back to where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was. That was going to be my next move. So I went to Jury Duty for one day and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then was not needed after that. And so I had a very short term of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using this. If I were gonna be there longer, I think I would probably actually then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at that point go buy an iPod Nano, spend the $200, and if I was gonna be there for a long time and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would have an opportunity to use this more than once, I would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably go that route. I also, I think if I knew, like if I go back and do it again
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I didn’t do that option, there’s a Sony player that is basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the version of my little nice Sony recorder that isn’t a recorder. Like it’s like the iPod Nano version
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of my little audio recorder that I have. It’s like the same generation, has lots of the same parts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like, it’s $75, so it’s more, but I would probably try that first before I did this, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any crazy hacks to make my $26 one work that much better. Because it is, it seems like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a nicer built thing. The reviews are a little bit mixed, but, because, you know, the problem is like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a new MP3 player in 2019, this is not a high volume market. Like there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are digital audio players, like there are like portable audio players that are for audiophiles, like for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-end audio listeners that support like high bitrate stuff and everything, but those all look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like phones because they all have these, like they’re all like the size of phones and they have like a big touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen on them. There’s actually very few that aren’t touch screens, but I wanted something that looked more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like an iPod because I figured it’d be more likely to get through. Whereas something that looks just like a phone, which is all the high-end
⏹️ ▶️ Marco models, I figured that was not likely to get through.
⏹️ ▶️ John Did you read any of your book?