Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

322: Morale-Sucking Maple Syrup Fires

Overcast nitpicks, black-hole sexism, Apple-Qualcomm-Intel, and Rambo’s Week O’Leaks.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Overcast complaint hour
  2. More AirPower “news”
  3. Follow-up: Netflix-AirPlay
  4. AirPods fidget spinner
  5. Sponsor: Linode (code atp2019)
  6. Reactions to Katie Bouman’s work 🖼️
  7. Sponsor: Jamf Now
  8. Apple-Qualcomm-Intel
  9. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  10. Rambo’s Week O’Leaks
  11. Ending theme
  12. Post-show: Heat

Overcast complaint hour

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Actually, you know what? I have a bone to pick with you. It just occurred to me. Awesome. I want you to fix a problem

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re not going to fix because you shouldn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re really making a good case for yourself there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wanted to listen under the radar when I went out for my run

⏹️ ▶️ Casey earlier today. And if you recall, I run with watch and AirPods only. And I went to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey run Overcast on my watch, which worked, but the episode wasn’t there because you had just released

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it like four and a half minutes prior. I want streaming or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some sort of manual, please sir, can I have it updated now button. And you’re not going to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do it, and you’re probably right not to do it, but I want it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love to offer that. I would love if there was a way that I could reliably initiate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a transfer that would happen immediately to the watch. There isn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, but it’s a cellular watch, man. Go to the internets.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, okay, I could do that. It would basically require a significantly different pipeline

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that file to get into the watch, for it to be processed and synced. You would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be dependent on whatever the bitrate and format of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco audio would be, which could be awfully large and complicated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the watch to handle.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, and I wouldn’t get smart speed,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would I? You definitely wouldn’t get smart speed. the watch is not fast enough to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pre-process it, and the API doesn’t exist to do it live. It would basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a really terrible experience. Now that being said, if there’s something you want to listen to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that isn’t already on your watch and you want to sync it over immediately and watchOS just isn’t syncing it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s also a terrible experience. But fixing, that’s the kind of thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I assume, But I assume that that’s the kind of thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Apple’s likely to fix sometime. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the complexity of having these two different ways for a file to get on the watch, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having to sync things between them, having to manage the different experiences that you get between them, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco complexity is forever. Shortcomings are usually temporary. So I decided to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just kind of wait and see. Right now, the auto-syncing in the background is good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough for most people, most of the time. Steve McLaughlin Including me, for the record. Michael Mastrand Right. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, it’s mostly fine. And so, I’d rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not rapidly increase the complexity in order to improve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that a little bit. Especially since most people don’t have cellular watches.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And those, even those who do, oftentimes it isn’t activated because cellular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple watches generally are very disappointing. And the cellular service is not good and very unreliable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, also I’d be concerned about Apple rejecting the app for using the cellular data too aggressively.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If it happened during their testing, maybe they downloaded a large file and then they would reject the app for using too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much cell data. So there’s all sorts of risks and problems with doing that. Not to mention the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco working on watchOS is incredibly painful. And so the process of developing all this complexity,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this kind of stuff would be simpler to do on iOS. Like it wouldn’t take as much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco effort on iOS. but everything on watchOS is like moving through maple syrup. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s maple syrup that occasionally catches fire and burns you as you’re in it. Like it’s, it’s just, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco terrible. Like working in watchOS is terrible. It’s time consuming and morale sucking and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just terrible. So I’d like to do as little of it as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s understandable. I don’t know. I, I don’t know what the UI would look like for this, which is why I’m going to let it go, because I know you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey should not make this feature, but I really wish there was some way to be like, Hey, I know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there is a specific podcast and I want to listen to it right frickin’

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now. I’m willing to trade off the lack of smart speed and the bit rate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey issues you were discussing. I don’t care. I want it now. It’s my podcast and I need it now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Just run back to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your house and grab your phone. Yeah, I mean, because here’s the other problem with this. Suppose I did all that work.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This feature is still used by very few people. The actual offline playback,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco playback on standalone watch without the phone. Every time you hit play on that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I record, a user has done this. And it’s a part of my analytics that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I report only to me, so don’t worry. But I can track what percentage of the active user base

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uses FeatureX. And the percentage of people who use that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco minuscule. and it’s really unfortunate because it took me a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of time and work and morale-sucking maple syrup fires. It was,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it took so much out of me to do that feature and almost no one uses it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And part of it, like, I’m not mad at the public for not using it. It isn’t that good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s fine. I got it to a point where it’s usable after like three

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years, but it’s not great. Using your phone is better. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the only reason to not have your phone usually is if you’re running. But runners

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually want to listen to music and not podcasts. So it’s a very small percentage of people,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, who really use this feature. And so it’s not worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco massive investment. And you could say, maybe more people would use it if it was better, and that’s probably true. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many more? Five times as many? Probably not. Is it maybe 50% more?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe. Probably not even that. So I think it would still be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very, very low percentage. By the way, even if five times as many people use it, that would still be embarrassingly low.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s fair. There are dozens of us, Marco, dozens.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There are literally dozens of you, I think. I really don’t think the number is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey much bigger. Is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that stuff that you could pull up easily, or is that the sort of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco thing where you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco eat?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, it is. Hold on. Even a broad order of magnitude, I would be very curious to hear exactly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how minuscule it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Most days it’s about 0.25% of active users. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to give you some idea, that is about half as much usage as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the web player gets from logged in users. And no one uses the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco web player. It’s near the widget. No one uses the widget. Now to give you some idea, about 30%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of users have an Apple Watch paired to their phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And 0.25% use this feature. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not to put a terrible idea in your head, but why is it still there then?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s the kind of feature that people think they’ll use. I thought people would use it when I was making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. And so it’s the kind of feature that you might make a competitive decision of which podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app to use based on whether this feature exists, even if you don’t end up using it in practice. So I think it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is important to offer it, but if I was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco starting over from scratch, if I couldn’t use any of my old code, if I had to rewrite my entire app from scratch, knowing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what I know now, I wouldn’t re-implement this feature. But because it’s already there, and because it serves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a decent role in competitive customer acquisition, then I’ll keep it there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it certainly is not worth the effort it took to build.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that bums me out, but I mean, the numbers, numbers tell you what the reality is. I,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s funny too, cause when I was still a person with a job, there was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Oakland office that opened for a, about a year. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so we were an East coast company. Then this Oakland office comes in and the like product owner and project

⏹️ ▶️ Casey managers from Oakland, like all they wanted to do was AB test everything. The numbers will tell us all the answers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I always found that very disheartening and disappointing because I felt like it was just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey punting on making difficult decisions. Oh, well, we’ll just trust the users. The users will definitely know what they want.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that always seemed like a poor choice to me. However,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even I can agree that there are some numbers that are indisputable. 0.25%.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s some pretty big evidence that you should probably leave this crap alone or not worry too much about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, to give you some idea, Siri Intents, like SiriKit usage,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I would think would be a very narrow feature, 5%.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Way, way higher. Speaking of that,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve been talking to my AirPods while playing Overcast, and the conversation has

⏹️ ▶️ John not been going well. Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can ask my new fancy AirPods to start playing,

⏹️ ▶️ John or to stop playing, which is convenient when my hands are all messy in the kitchen. And I can also

⏹️ ▶️ John ask for volume adjustments and those happen. But anytime I want anything

⏹️ ▶️ John else to happen, I have a very one-sided conversation with Siri that always culminates

⏹️ ▶️ John in whatever audio it was playing, stopping, and then me waiting a certain

⏹️ ▶️ John amount of time to see if whatever I asked for is going to happen and then me giving up and then saying, hey, dingus, play.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it picks up right where I left off. Usually what I want to do is skip forward a certain amount of time, skip

⏹️ ▶️ John back a certain amount of time, go to the next track, go to the previous track. Every time I say,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, dingus to my AirPods and issue one of those commands in any way I can possibly think of it,

⏹️ ▶️ John audio stops and that’s the end. And then I can, then I just say, hey, dingus

⏹️ ▶️ John play. And it picks up right where the audio stopped previously. What can I say to my AirPods that

⏹️ ▶️ John Overcast will understand?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I should probably get AirPod 2s and see, but I mean, I assume I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do the same thing with Siri on the phone.

⏹️ ▶️ John Skip forward 30 seconds, skip back 30 seconds, next track, previous track, skip to next track, go to next track, go

⏹️ ▶️ John to previous track. Like I’ve tried every variation I could possibly think of, and I’ve tried pauses

⏹️ ▶️ John between hey dingus and issuing the command. That shouldn’t matter. And no pause, and I don’t know, honestly I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John what it’s doing. It obviously hears me say hey dingus because it stops playing the audio,

⏹️ ▶️ John And it still hears me when I give up and say, hey, dingus, play, and it starts playing it again.

⏹️ ▶️ John So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, first of all, the Siri implementation in iOS 12 that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have right now, Siri does some weird things with audio. So for instance,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS has the concept of there’s an audio session that your app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has, which is like how your app audio interacts with the system audio and how it’s managed with things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether things are allowed to play at the same time as your app audio, whether things should duck your app’s audio. And there’s concepts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with things like the active app, things like whether your audio session is active and whether it’s currently being interrupted.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So for instance, if you’re playing a podcast and you get a phone call, your audio session gets automatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interrupted and paused and then when the phone call ends, you get the interruption ended message

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can resume your audio. Well, one of the things that also pauses

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your app’s audio is Siri. When you’ve held on the Siri button

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Siri goes boop boop and it kicks on and starts listening, if you’re playing anything, your session gets interrupted.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then it resumes afterwards. Also, if Siri has to respond

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to you, that maintains the interruption or starts one if it isn’t already interrupted.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now if you ask Siri to do something in Overcast, right now, Siri does not, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS 12 Siri Kit Intents have only a very rudimentary idea of whether you’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything audio related, and they seem to have no bearing, they seem to not really change

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their behavior at all if you’re using the play media intent. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you get, one of the things I had to work around last summer when I was implementing this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, if you send basically the Siri command for Overcast to start playing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri will respond in audio like, okay, done, or whatever it says,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that will interrupt the playback it just started by telling me to play. Nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, right, is it great? So, there’s also, and because these things all happen kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of at the same time, or like in the same run loop iteration sometimes, like because these are happening very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quickly all at the same time, sometimes it gets things wrong and deactivates your audio session permanently

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or creates an interruption that it never ends. So you’re just permanently interrupted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you never resume. So, and I’ve talked to people who make other podcast apps about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ve all had to do things like add delays before we actually start playing to give

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri a chance to end its audio interruption that it’s using to respond to you with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before we start playing. And like, anytime you introduce an intentional delay into your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app, like, you’re just asking for bugs at that point, like, that’s a huge code smell. Like, you never wanna have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, dispatch after.25 seconds just to avoid some bug. Like, that’s never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a good thing to have to do. But everyone I’ve known who’s written a podcast app with SiriKit support has had to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like that, like put in a small delay before we actually start playback, otherwise Siri will kill it in a way that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can’t undo. So there’s all sorts of weird issues with the way Siri

⏹️ ▶️ Marco handles audio interruptions and the way it responds to commands with SiriKit that make it very hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make a lot of these things reliable. So it’s possible that some of these things might just be like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the exact timing Siri is having for you with this certain combination of commands and hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and whatever might be wrong or might be hitting a bug with SiriKit and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really hard to diagnose those things.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s weird that asking it to play always works. Like I assume whatever, like the media controls that are just

⏹️ ▶️ John presented like in Control Center, Control Center has the play button and it has the next and previous track

⏹️ ▶️ John button. I just, I’m basically trying to find the voice equivalent of, look, I know iOS, you probably don’t know much about the

⏹️ ▶️ John application that’s playing audio, but one is playing audio and you offer those three controls and they all work in Control Center. So just

⏹️ ▶️ John virtually tap one of those buttons for me now, but I can’t get it to do what I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want. Two other things. Number one, AirPods specifically, there’s a lot of special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco case audio handling in the OS for AirPods. Whatever they do, and I haven’t played with the second ones yet,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the first gen AirPods do a lot of crazy stuff with like Bluetooth recompression

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or transcoding or something. There’s all sorts of weird overcast bugs that I’ve hit that only happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with AirPods. And sometimes like weird system behaviors and things like that that basically only happen when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have AirPods connected with no other Bluetooth headphones. So there’s something, however they handle the AirPods

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the system level, there’s some kind of special casing that breaks things sometimes. And then secondly, you have an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco issue where if you, whatever phrase you use to do overcast Siri shortcuts,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s very hard to come up with phrases that the system, that that Siri will not try to be smart

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about and take back the meaning of the shortcut to mean its own thing. So for instance, if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a play shortcut for overcast and you call it play in overcast,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is very unlikely to work reliably because Siri sees play

⏹️ ▶️ Marco overcast or whatever, play and it’ll start looking for an artist in Apple Music named

⏹️ ▶️ Marco overcast. Like it tries to be smart when it sees phrasing that it thinks it recognizes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s why with all my example phrases in the SiriKit dialog, I prefix them all with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco overcast. So I suggest you use phrasing like overcast play. And the reason I do that is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you begin the command with overcast, then you can use a phrase

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Siri would normally pick up as a media phrase and it seems not to do it. It seems to be able to keep those things separate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the first word is overcast. But it’s so complicated and it’s hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make a lot of it reliable.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, I’ll try addressing the application. I mean, I figured just because it was the current audio session that I was trying to essentially do the

⏹️ ▶️ John verbal equivalent of just basic commands available to any playing audio stream, but I’ll try

⏹️ ▶️ John issuing application commands

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco next time. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, that should work. In theory, that should even work better because if you issue a command that it interprets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same way it would have interpreted you tapping the buttons in Control Center, that’s a whole different mechanism of how it sends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that command to the app that is way more reliable. But I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John what to say to make that happen. Like, every combination of words I’ve tried has resulted in dead silence

⏹️ ▶️ John from the AirPods.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, normally you should be able to say things like skip forward 30 seconds. Like that should work just fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John It does not. Casey, you should try that when you get a chance because you’ve got the new. I don’t know if it’s different

⏹️ ▶️ John on the new or the old ones. The voice activation is the only difference. I never used, thing is I never used

⏹️ ▶️ John HeyDingus on the, like the tapping, the taps were always for play pause

⏹️ ▶️ John on my AirPod Ones. On the AirPod 2s, like I just get the HeyDingus for free so I’ve been trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John use it and it doesn’t want to listen to me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do find that normally if I say, hey, dingus, turn off my cable lamp or something like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, it does take annoyingly long to come back to playing, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it does usually start playing again. Typically, if I’m listening to something,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it would be overcast. Overcast on the phone, the AirPods are paired to the phone, and I say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hey, dingus, turn off my cable lamp. Wait, wait, okay. Wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait, wait, wait. Oh, okay, and there’s my podcast again. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will say that there are definitely times that I have done the Hey Dingus dance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and nothing has happened afterwards. Like it will typically do whatever request

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve asked for, but then it will never restart audio

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, my audio never restarts when I issue one of those commands. It just goes silent and it still knows the playback

⏹️ ▶️ John position because I go, Hey Dingus play and it starts playing right where it left off.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if you say like skip forward 30 seconds, not only does it not skip forward 30 seconds,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it also doesn’t resume playback? Nope. Hmm. That’s really weird.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, I mean, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sounds like, like the way you’re describing this, and Casey, you too, like the way you’re describing like it takes a long time to resume, that sounds like just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad interruption handling by Siri. But I don’t, and that’s unfortunately, that’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of any app’s control. But it’s so hard to work with this stuff. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The other problem, like I frequently have problems with Siri that I can’t use Hey Dingus

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I’m playing a podcast out loud because, or any Siri

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather, like when I hit the button to start Siri or if I say Hey Dingus, but even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I hit the hardware button on the side of the phone, it will pick up, it’ll pause the podcast,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it will insert as my query the last few words that were spoken in the podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, oh my gosh, I keep meaning to bring this up on the show, if you cut all the rest of the crap we’ve been talking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about, that’s fine, But you got to leave this in because this has been driving me insane. That is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly the behavior I’ve seen. So a lot of times I’ll mash down on whatever the technical term is for the right side

⏹️ ▶️ Casey button on the phone, the sleep wake button or whatever it is. I’ll mash down on it and just like you said, the podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pauses pretty darn quick and before it appears that Siri is ready to listen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the first three to five words of my request to the dingus

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are the last three to five words I’ve heard on the podcast and it is driving me insane.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like I understand what they’re doing and it does make sense, but oh my word, it is so frustrating.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I have no idea how to fix that. I mean, as far as I know, like, because I can’t, when, when the audio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interruption happens, you don’t get notified in advance and you have no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco control over it. It interrupts your session and it just says, Hey, you’re interrupted now. Here’s why.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it cuts off your audio like at whatever time it wants to. And that’s it. you lose complete control at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that point. So I can’t cut off the audio at a different time, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not cutting it off late, it’s totally out of my control. So that’s just iOS being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the OS should be able to do this. The OS knows what sound it’s putting out through the audio system, and if the sound that it was putting

⏹️ ▶️ John out is suspiciously similar to the sound that it, because I understand the preload buffer, like you wanna start

⏹️ ▶️ John listening before, have a little bit of the buffer of the thing that’s always listening, it makes sense. But it

⏹️ ▶️ John should know, I just put out that audio around about the same time I was hearing it. So filter

⏹️ ▶️ John that out, kind of like echo cancellation and all sorts of other things. That would help it not

⏹️ ▶️ John be triggered by itself. It probably wouldn’t help with ambient noise, like if you’re playing the podcast on another speaker, there’s only so much you can

⏹️ ▶️ John do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the device itself tricks itself via its own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John speaker. Yeah, the internal speaker,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah. Or maybe, you mean, if it was super clever, it could maybe even do it if it was air playing? Obviously, if the audio is

⏹️ ▶️ John from an entirely different source, what can you do but it’s coming from the phone in any fashion it would be nice That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John another feature they can add to iOS 13.

More AirPower “news”

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We should probably actually start the show and do a little bit of follow-up. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anonymous writes, yes, AirPower was always going to be a quote, place

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the device anywhere quote product with multiple overlapping coils. Early in the concept phase, it was going to be a much larger

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mat with a squared off footprint and something like three times as many coils. But that was scrapped pretty quickly because using that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much copper would have meant an astronomical retail price. Power by Proxy had zero involvement with the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey version of AirPower shown off on stage in the 2017 iPhone event.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So in our continued AirPower news, I love that we’re still talking about this. I love

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we’re still getting updates about this. I wonder, when do you think is the last time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we will get like tip info about AirPower? Do you think it’s like, do you think it has already happened

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where it’s basically now? Or do you think it’s like a week out, a month out, a year out?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How long do you think the AirPower tipster train will go?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is probably the end of it because we have like the we start off with the one story and this is Refuting

⏹️ ▶️ John everything about that story So they feel like they both bounce each other out and it’ll be a long time before

⏹️ ▶️ John the actual truth Like you said is revealed because someone involved in the project writes about it in their memoirs or something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m looking forward to that time though. I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I Just couldn’t possibly care less

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’ll be fascinating seeing or hearing about what happened Although to be honest, the reality

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the situation is it’s probably like every other botched corporate product. Oh, hey, there’s this great

⏹️ ▶️ Casey idea, let’s try it. Oh, it didn’t work, okay, let’s kill it. Okay, good talk.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s.

Follow-up: Netflix-AirPlay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. iFred writes, the Netflix AirPlay thing is likely driven by a royalty fee where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey second screens and primary screens have different rights. This isn’t something that’s going to be shared publicly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it just stirs stuff up. I’m a video engineer in this field. From player data and manifests being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey served, it still looks like you’re just playing a profile for iOS. I think Fred’s point here is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you can’t really tell what screen you’re beaming to if you’re on the physical

⏹️ ▶️ Casey device screen or if you’re airplaying when you’re the Netflix app. It still looks like a nice protected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey video play pen, and you can say that it’s still a second screen experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Big corporation cable killed Chromecast support for a similar reason.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s so weird to think of like, when they say second screen, what they mean is like the primary screen of the device the

⏹️ ▶️ John Netflix app is on, but it’s a second screen because it’s not a television, right? The lingo is so television centric. Television

⏹️ ▶️ John is the first screen, any other screen is the second screen. Even if the Netflix app itself is running on the phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John the phone’s screen is a second screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, Mark Plus writes, there’s no quality loss when beaming full screen videos via AirPlay.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The raw MP4 data is sent directly. Recompression only happens when using AirPlay screen mirroring and no full screen videos playing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that true for AirPlay 1 as well? Because that was not my understanding, but I could be wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I suppose it depends on what you’re AirPlaying to. Maybe there’s something in the specs. Obviously, it can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John send the raw data stream if the raw data stream is in a codec or even in just

⏹️ ▶️ John a profile that the receiving device can’t decode. So there would have to be recompression, but presumably that doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John happen with the Netflix app. Presumably it intentionally makes sure that it sends data that can go straight through

⏹️ ▶️ John to any existing AirPlay device without recompression.

AirPods fidget spinner

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, John, tell us about your fidget spinner. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about the terrible clicking noise that some people’s new AirPod cases make.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John heard from a few people who say their case doesn’t make that sound, but I’ve heard from many more that it does. Anyway, I said they

⏹️ ▶️ John should have turned the case into a fidget spinner because it’s kind of good for that. Lo and behold,

⏹️ ▶️ John someone actually has a product that turns your AirPod case into a fidget spinner.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s sort of like a sleeve that your AirPod case goes into with a little thing on the front and back

⏹️ ▶️ John for you to put your fingers on, a little ball bearings in it, so you just sort of pinch the case between your fingers and spin it,

⏹️ ▶️ John and there you go. AirPods as fidget spinner.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s the gods intended.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is a real product, it’s $25 that you can buy right now.

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Reactions to Katie Bouman’s work

Chapter Reactions to Katie Bouman's work image.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would like to take a moment. I don’t have a good link in the show notes as I sit here right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now, but perhaps we can find one. I’d like to take a moment to comment

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the recent goings on with the photo of the black hole

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the lead architect, I don’t think that’s the title, the correct title, but for lack of a better

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, the lead architect behind this was a woman named Katie Bowman. And shortly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after this momentous astrological thing, not astrological,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s very wrong, hello, this momentous moment in astronomy happened,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it seems like all the idiot boys had to come out of the woodwork to try to stir things up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I don’t know that we need to go into it that much, but I find it extraordinarily

⏹️ ▶️ Casey disappointing and gross and tacky and unnecessary and disgusting that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a bunch of very insecure boys decided to go trolling through various GitHub

⏹️ ▶️ Casey repos to try to prove that Katie Bowman was taking credit for other people,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey particularly men’s work. And as far as I understand, some of the co-authors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the code and the different papers that this work was based on,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey many of whom were men, have come out to say, no, no, no, this is her work. Like, this is really her. And I just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted to publicly say that I think this is bullshit, and it really makes me sad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I admit I have not been following this incredibly closely. I just know the high-level overview that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think everyone knows at this point. But the reality is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco men have a really hard time when women get credit for anything because we are so used to getting all the credit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ourselves. When you’ve been the dominant class or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for so long, sharing power or credit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with anyone else feels like an attack on you because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was just you for so long that got all the credit. And so if anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco starts moving towards equality or diversity, it’s easy for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of people who were in the dominant class to feel like it’s an attack on them and to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get super defensive and try to discredit or do other horrible things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you feel threatened by being in the dominant class

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and slowly losing that dominance towards something that’s more equal and more diverse,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a problem with you, not a problem with the results in the system. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sorry, I’m probably butchering this because I’m not an expert in discussing things like this. So I apologize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I’m butchering this, but basically anyone who feels threatened

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or angry about a woman getting credit for an important scientific achievement,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have to check yourself there. And secondly, I think it’s worth pointing out that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reality of any kind of large project, whether it’s a product

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being developed or a scientific achievement like this, is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a team of people who work on it. There’s lots of people involved usually. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we still tend to give a lot of credit to the leaders. Steve Jobs didn’t make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPhone. He didn’t invent it. He didn’t manufacture it. He didn’t write

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any of the software on it. He probably designed none of the hardware on it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he gets a lot of credit for it because he was the leader of the company that made it at the time they made it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And forgive me, I’m not familiar with too many of the details of the various people’s roles in this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and what title or role Katie Bowman had, but it’s totally in line with how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people get credit for things usually in our society to say that this is hers, that this was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco her project, that she led this and they did this as a result of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco her. Like, this seems like the way we credit things in our society. You have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really bend over backwards to suggest that she shouldn’t get credit for this.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think if someone was listening to this would probably, and who’s on the other side of it, would probably find everything you

⏹️ ▶️ John said unconvincing because they would say, you’re misunderstanding. That’s not the situation at

⏹️ ▶️ John all. I’m not trying to discredit somebody. I’m not being a meanie. I’m not insecure. I’m not threatened.

⏹️ ▶️ John Really, all I’m doing is two things. One,

⏹️ ▶️ John I am being vigilant and skeptical against a trend I see in the world,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is that everyone is looking for a chance to raise up

⏹️ ▶️ John historically marginalized people and use them as examples of good. And I,

⏹️ ▶️ John as the rational, skeptic internet person dude, obviously. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco always a deal. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John watching for that because I think it would be very unfair to take somebody and hold them up

⏹️ ▶️ John as a great champion or someone who’s very successful just because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re from a traditionally marginalized group. So anytime we see

⏹️ ▶️ John that happen, oh, look at this. Someone’s getting credit for a scientific discovery

⏹️ ▶️ John or achievement and it’s not a white guy. should check this out because

⏹️ ▶️ John we know how all those people out there are always just trying to, to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John champion anybody they see from marginalized groups. So let’s let’s check this out. I’m not being mean or insecure,

⏹️ ▶️ John we just got to check it out. Because it just seems unfair to, to, you know, people should get credit when it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John due to them. But when it’s not due, I the internet skeptic, I’m going to make sure that I’m on the prowl for

⏹️ ▶️ John that. And that happened a lot. And you know, the typical place you would imagine hacker news or Reddit

⏹️ ▶️ John or or whatever. And during that process, the self-anointed,

⏹️ ▶️ John extremely non-experts in the field

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey have examined it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And aside from the super-duper trolls, have basically come down, OK, we looked into it.

⏹️ ▶️ John We checked it out. And despite some early suspicions about some things and some confusion

⏹️ ▶️ John about lines of code when people check model files into GitHub, and it ends up with almost a million lines

⏹️ ▶️ John of code. And we’re confused by that because we don’t know anything. give us some credit like

⏹️ ▶️ John a self-appointed experts. We sorted it out and we eventually determined that yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John she should get credit. She was like her algorithm and her idea and she led the team and did all this important

⏹️ ▶️ John work and it’s checked it out and everything’s fine. And those people

⏹️ ▶️ John would say, this is the system working as designed. We here as a self-appointed experts

⏹️ ▶️ John are ensuring that no one gets credit when they shouldn’t because that

⏹️ ▶️ John actually would be counter to the idea of, you know, raising up marginalized people, right? So we want to make

⏹️ ▶️ John sure if they’re getting credit, they should, and we looked into it and we checked it out and we had a discussion, a very rational discussion,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we debated and aside from all the people who are currently downvoting, who are super duper jerks and misogynists,

⏹️ ▶️ John we determined it looks good. She should get credit, everything’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Thank you for your service.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you have some kind of super tunnel vision and you just look at it from that lens, you’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ John show me where something was wrong there. We were on the internet and we were just having a discussion about

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing and there were some doubts and we looked into it and we used our awesome rational membranes and

⏹️ ▶️ John we came to what we think is the truth. And it turns out in this case the truth is what everyone wanted it to be

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a feel good story and it’s great. Everything’s it’s cool right? And

⏹️ ▶️ John to the people who either participate in that or can identify with that or like hear that and think

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean that makes sense. How can you argue with that? Like show me show me show me the lie. wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John about that? You’re the tunnel vision, you’re missing the larger context and larger context

⏹️ ▶️ John is that every time anyone from a marginalized group

⏹️ ▶️ John gets outside of their pen or raises above their station or like, becomes

⏹️ ▶️ John slightly less marginalized for even a moment, they are accosted by the

⏹️ ▶️ John entire universe of the status quo saying, Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on a second. Let’s

⏹️ ▶️ John examine everything about this that can Can we get a DNA sample? Is that really you? Can we talk to everyone you ever

⏹️ ▶️ John knew? Did you steal a candy bar when you were in fifth grade? Because I might have to put you like, and that just doesn’t happen

⏹️ ▶️ John when it’s a white guy. When it’s a white guy, no one goes in and examines everything about their life and interrogates

⏹️ ▶️ John to make sure that they did everything I said. And that that is the lesson here, not the specifics of this story.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the idea like, put yourself in the shoes of a marginalized person

⏹️ ▶️ John and see what it would be like that when you know, even if you have any kind of 100% deserve

⏹️ ▶️ John success, the main story will be everyone else trying to even the best people, quote unquote,

⏹️ ▶️ John make sure that you really deserve it. And that just doesn’t happen to other people. And they

⏹️ ▶️ John say, Well, no, I do that for everybody. Every every scientific paper, I just make sure that the all the male credits get that

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t. It’s not the way it writ large is not the way the world works. That is the lesson here that

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t just look at the single case and say everyone, the system worked the way it was supposed to. And we’re just doing a job, you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to look at the larger context, you have to put yourself in the shoes of one of those people and say, what is it like when anytime

⏹️ ▶️ John anything goes well for you? The main thing you have to deal with is

⏹️ ▶️ John attacks and doubts systemically because of who you are. And that’s,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the distinct, the important part. And that’s the part that you’ve never been able to argue with, because you’re trying to tell the people like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know about the analogies are trying to explain water to a fish or whatever, that it’s just the world they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John living in. It’s the world everyone’s doing. And especially if they can’t relate or don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John enough experience being empathetic to that position or haven’t heard enough,

⏹️ ▶️ John like haven’t listened to enough people explaining, here’s what it’s like to be me. I don’t know how many ways we can get at

⏹️ ▶️ John the idea of empathy, but it’s a difficult… You can’t explain empathy to someone. I mean, you can intellectually,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you have to, you know, it’s the point of empathy. You have to feel it to

⏹️ ▶️ John make the connection to say, What would it be like to be a woman in science? Right. What

⏹️ ▶️ John does that entail? And how is it different than being a man in science? And you can’t look at one

⏹️ ▶️ John single case and say, well, everything there was justified. You have to look at the big picture and the big context

⏹️ ▶️ John and people as a group and understand the injustice. And it’s it’s difficult concept to get across.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I feel like sometimes it gets lost in any specific case of arguing over the details of like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, get up source code and stuff. It’s like, why? Why are we even? Why are we even that far down

⏹️ ▶️ John the rabbit hole here? Think about why. Why is this even happening? Anyway, that’s my angle

⏹️ ▶️ John on this whole story.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I fricking love you. Thank you for that. And I really mean it. I hope I don’t sound sarcastic. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey especially when it comes to this sort of thing, you do such a good job of taking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my jumbled thoughts and making them make sense. So I appreciate it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really glad that you are here to speak for us. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because Marco and I are trying real hard. We really, really are. Doesn’t mean we’re succeeding, but we’re trying.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m afraid to talk about a lot of stuff like this because I’m not good at it. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if I talk about these kind of things poorly, I’m probably making things worse.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, I think both of you and a lot of people, myself included, the first instinct

⏹️ ▶️ John is often like you feel the injustice. Like you have enough empathy to understand like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this seemed like I can imagine what it might be like and this feels unjust. And part of it is

⏹️ ▶️ John tribal and teams. And like if you are if you are sort of for more equality for women or

⏹️ ▶️ John any other marginalized group, if you’re for that, you instinctively root for that,

⏹️ ▶️ John quote unquote, that side, you can get caught up in that part of it. And in general, if you see someone being attacked and

⏹️ ▶️ John you feel like that, as far as you’re concerned, you probably think it’s unjust. You you feel bad and you rebel

⏹️ ▶️ John against the injustice and you get mad about it and you get worked up or whatever. But like.

⏹️ ▶️ John The. getting fighting the battles from that perspective, like

⏹️ ▶️ John my side versus your side and us arguing or whatever can lead to the situation where

⏹️ ▶️ John everything gets settled as it happened as it mostly got settled in these threads that were not in the, you know, that

⏹️ ▶️ John are in the more reasonable parts of the Internet. And everyone thinks, okay, well, we worked

⏹️ ▶️ John it out. The system works. And I feel like, especially

⏹️ ▶️ John if the answer turns out like your side is the one on the right, like, oh, it’s great. Oh, it’s great. You know, and if you still disagree, you’re a bad

⏹️ ▶️ John person, but all the other people agree like the the trap isn’t is thinking that that that

⏹️ ▶️ John is the system working and not understanding that that whole debate is is Regardless of how it turned

⏹️ ▶️ John out even that you know regardless of just the fact that we’re discussing this at all it’s like the all the things with like repeating

⏹️ ▶️ John lies like I’m hesitant to even have this topic in the show just because Discussing it at all it

⏹️ ▶️ John gives credence to the idea that that a woman was getting credit when she shouldn’t even though that is not the case,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, studies have shown if you just repeat a lie over and over again, it gains more weight in people’s

⏹️ ▶️ John minds, despite how you know how wrong it might be, despite everyone agreeing that it’s wrong, because

⏹️ ▶️ John they heard it so many times like it’s wrong, but it’s probably a thing that probably happens a lot. And it

⏹️ ▶️ John could have happened in this case, it just happened to not happen. And that’s, that’s the worst part about it. That is the

⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that it happens, and that that’s the systemic oppression that is difficult to explain,

⏹️ ▶️ John but is probably more significant than the details of any individual case.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steve McLaughlin Yeah. Preach. No, I just wanted to call it out because I really think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s too bad. And I’m glad that, John, you were there to clean up our mess.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John John Greenewald Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John thank you. John Greenewald What we should really talk about is all the videos I saw explaining how cool,

⏹️ ▶️ John like why the image looks the way it does. I tweeted it. We should put it in link in the show notes. There was Veritasium, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, I mean, if you had, when interstellar came out, the same stuff went around, like, here’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John the black hole interstellar looked the way it does. Well, we consulted scientists and they told us this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the way it looks. And like, it’s all true. And there were explainer stories back then. It’s all

⏹️ ▶️ John just come back around now. I thought that very same thing with the model was a pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John concise way to explain it that had the advantage of glossing

⏹️ ▶️ John over the details that aren’t that important. You basically just want to know Why does it look like a black

⏹️ ▶️ John spot with a fuzzy ring around it? Why does it look anything like that? You don’t want to know the super duper details

⏹️ ▶️ John of why the interstellar one looks exactly like that. The interstellar one

⏹️ ▶️ John leaves out some details as well for cinematic reasons. But we will put that link in the show notes to get something positive

⏹️ ▶️ John out of this if you’re wondering why the hell does a picture of the black hole look like a coffee stain

⏹️ ▶️ John in the sky? We have a video that will answer that question. And the answer

⏹️ ▶️ John is cool. The answer is not, oh, it’s just, it’s like black but with stuff around it. The answer is cool because black

⏹️ ▶️ John holes are cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, if your coffee is that color, you’re doing something wrong. It’s not actually color.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a false color image, Marco. They just assign colors to

⏹️ ▶️ John levels of, it’s fine. You can make it any color you want.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple and Qualcomm have settled and within hours of that, Intel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has decided, yeah, maybe this 5G thing ain’t for us after all.

⏹️ ▶️ John I like this story because it’s so neat. So we we know that Apple and

⏹️ ▶️ John Qualcomm have been not friends for a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Qualcomm sells the modem chips that let your phone talk to the cell network. And

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a super important part of your phone. Qualcomm has tons of patents. There’s all sorts of lawsuits

⏹️ ▶️ John about Qualcomm not licensing those patents to people for reasonable rates and Apple not wanting to

⏹️ ▶️ John pay license fees because they felt like they were already paid by the manufacturers and blah, blah, blah, like big legal battle.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re super not friends in the last round of iPhones and maybe a little bit of the one before

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has been getting its cell modems from Intel while it fights with Qualcomm.

⏹️ ▶️ John And as we’ve said many times in this program, Apple’s solution to this problem long term is screw

⏹️ ▶️ John you, Qualcomm and Intel will make our own modem chips. But that takes a long time. Apple is still pursuing

⏹️ ▶️ John that strategy. But in the meantime, it’s got it’s got phones to make and phones to sell.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I haven’t really been paying attention to this battle. I didn’t know like the first day of the court case between

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple and Qualcomm happened and it’s a separate thing where Qualcomm’s being in a thing with the FTC

⏹️ ▶️ John about licensing. Anyway, the situation came to a head

⏹️ ▶️ John for a variety of reasons. One, Intel is having, as we all know,

⏹️ ▶️ John having problems getting its 10 nanometer process online still. That’s why we have 14 nanometer

⏹️ ▶️ John chips on all our Macs. And it’s kind of important if Intel wants to continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to make these, you know, sell radio chips for phones, it

⏹️ ▶️ John has to be able to match the process that Qualcomm is going to be able to fab on with Taiwan Semiconductor or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. And Intel has seemed a little bit shaky

⏹️ ▶️ John about the idea of whether whether really wanted to be in this business because it’s kind of compared to giant server

⏹️ ▶️ John chips where it’s the dominant force. It’s It’s a lower margin business and Apple is a difficult customer and all that stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the way it came to head is, and I’m not sure about the order of events at the time we’re recording this is still

⏹️ ▶️ John some speculation, but I assume the order of events is Apple’s hanging out there. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like Apple’s fighting with Qualcomm and Intel is supposed to be making its cell radio chips in particular.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, Intel was going to make the five G radio chips for not this phone, maybe, but the next phone and Intel is not

⏹️ ▶️ John doing too well. And Apple’s like, Oh, we’re kind of between a rock and a hard place. making our own chips but we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be ready in time for the next iPhone. Intel’s making chips but they might not be ready because we know they’re having trouble

⏹️ ▶️ John with their process and we don’t want them to fab it on the bigger process and Qualcomm we’re in a fight with. So what do we

⏹️ ▶️ John do? And sort of simultaneously Intel says,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know what, forget it, we’re not making 5G cell modems, right? Apple settles with Qualcomm

⏹️ ▶️ John basically, you know, not that they say Apple lost, but they basically lost. Apple settles with Qualcomm, makes nice with Qualcomm

⏹️ ▶️ John and does like a cross licensing agreement which they need to be able to make their own cell modem chips because Qualcomm has

⏹️ ▶️ John all the important patents and patents are evil, but also like agrees to pay them some

⏹️ ▶️ John huge amount of money that they supposedly owed them. Because what choice do they have? Once Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John either can’t or doesn’t want to make 5G, you know, cell modems

⏹️ ▶️ John in time for Apple, Apple has to make up with Qualcomm because otherwise it would have no cell radios in its phones

⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s really bad. So this is all nice and neat where Apple basically

⏹️ ▶️ John loses, Intel also kind of loses, I feel like, and Qualcomm also kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of loses because, you know, so Apple loses because they end up paying Qualcomm when they didn’t want to,

⏹️ ▶️ John and their whole idea of playing Intel against Qualcomm didn’t work out. Intel loses, I think, because this is

⏹️ ▶️ John another situation where Intel says, eh, we like our high margin businesses better, and Intel apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t get its act together to get its process shrink online, and they just, you know, remove

⏹️ ▶️ John the risk. Like, let’s not deal with that whole Apple thing because Apple’s a demanding customer and we’re not even sure we

⏹️ ▶️ John want to be in this business and whatever, right? But it’s not a strength move for Intel. If Intel was

⏹️ ▶️ John super duper awesome and had the best fab like it did many years ago, it would be able to serve Apple and sell

⏹️ ▶️ John tons of a chip and it would have been good for them. So they lose. And then Qualcomm loses because

⏹️ ▶️ John regardless of the deal with Apple, they know that Apple’s making its own cell radio chips and they just gave

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple the patent licenses that it needs so that in a year or two or three, Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be buying chips from Qualcomm anymore either. So everybody loses in giant corporation,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, you know, courtroom, chingo, whatever the hell we’re playing here. And what do you, what do you guys think of the

⏹️ ▶️ John order of operations was here? Was it a Intel voluntarily bailed or Apple knew that Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John wasn’t going to be able to make it and bailed on Intel. It’s kind of like who gets to announce first. Cause I can imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple in their boardroom going, who here, who here is confident that Intel is actually going to be able to

⏹️ ▶️ John give us a radio chips, 5G radio chips, and no one raises their hand. They’re like, maybe we should just

⏹️ ▶️ John tell Intel, you know what, forget it, and we should settle with Qualcomm. And before they even tell Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John that, Intel gets a wind of it and says, you know what, no, we’re out of the 5G business. We weren’t going to make you things anyway. Forget

⏹️ ▶️ John it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You can’t fire me. I quit. Yeah, like I have no idea

⏹️ ▶️ John what the order is there. And then Apple settling with Qualcomm, Qualcomm’s lawyers would be more than happy to say, so Apple, here you

⏹️ ▶️ John want to settle. Well, here’s how much money we want, and we’ll do that cross-patent licensing. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John depending on when those things happen, the negotiation between Apple and Qualcomm could have been more

⏹️ ▶️ John or less in Apple’s favor. But I can’t tell exactly what other things happened here.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I really do feel like that everybody loses in some way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, if I were to wager a guess, I would say that Intel knew it was screwed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know if that got messaged to Apple or not, but I think Intel knew it was screwed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple thus knew it was screwed. And I bet you Apple said to Intel,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eh, nevermind on this whole thing. And then Intel said, oh, thank God. I mean, I mean, I mean, oh, that’s too bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, the whole Qualcomm, Apple thing, this is two big companies

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that were fighting over a lot of money. I honestly, I don’t think Apple had a leg to stand on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not a legal expert, but it sure seemed like Apple just decided, we don’t want to pay this anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we’re just going to stop and you can sue us and we’ll see what happens. Like that’s kind of how it seemed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we were all willing to kind of forgive that or the other way because anyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who looks into this at all learns quickly that Qualcomm is like not a great actor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the time. Like it really uses like horrible, like predatory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco licensing and pricing and they’re really a big bully.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John So-

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there was the other case involving like the FTC of saying it’s not just like they’re being mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John Like legally, Qualcomm is supposed to allow people to use its patents for some reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ John fee or whatever. Like there’s some like that that case is ongoing. Right. So Apple’s bet was I bet we can just

⏹️ ▶️ John not pay them because they’re going to be so screwed because we know they’re in the wrong with this FTC thing. And I bet they’re going to lose that

⏹️ ▶️ John case. And let’s our risk is let’s just not pay them because they’ll be distracted by that thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe if they lose that case, like maybe we’ll get, you know, and the gamble didn’t pay off for Apple. All right. They

⏹️ ▶️ John like either the case went took slowly or maybe Qualcomm is going to win that case after all or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, yeah, so it was kind of a it’s thing companies do all the time, a game of chicken of like, we have

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of money and a lot of lawyers. So let’s just not do a thing and, you know, come at me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. And it could have been that at the time it worked out differently, that Qualcomm might have been in hot water with

⏹️ ▶️ John this patent thing and been willing to overlook Apple doing that in exchange for some sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John deal that for Apple to continue buying its cell phones or whatever. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, both Apple and Qualcomm were being big corporate jerks. But I feel like Qualcomm had sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of the original sin, well, the patent system is the original sin, of like, of having these patents

⏹️ ▶️ John and hoarding them and charging a lot for them in a way that made everybody unhappy

⏹️ ▶️ John and that is probably illegal according to the letter of the already absurd patent law, right? And then after that, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, well, Apple gets super cranky about that. And then it does something that is probably also illegal. and

⏹️ ▶️ John then, you know, he started it is not a great argument, legally speaking, but it’s the reason

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that Qualcomm is the worst actor here. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, yeah, like I honestly didn’t like the way Apple handled this. Like, it sure seemed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Apple was cutting off their money in order to hurt them financially,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like fatally. Like, I think Apple decided to stop paying them, hoping that not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only would they lose so much revenue that they would be forced to negotiate, but that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their stock price, because they’re a public company, that their stock price would go down so much that I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple was basically trying to strangle Qualcomm out of existence by just not paying something that, by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their contract, they clearly owed the money, and Apple just decided, we’re gonna stop paying and see what happens.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s kind of a big bully move right there. So I don’t like the way Apple did this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though I don’t like Qualcomm either. I think Apple went about this in a really, a very big bully kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. But regardless, it seems to be over now for the time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being, because Intel can’t get their crap together, and that’s not really news to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody. Nope. Long term, I think Apple will get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their cell modem team going quickly enough that I think maybe in five

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years, they won’t need to deal with Qualcomm anymore, but

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re not there yet. Yeah, I don’t know how long their patent license is, but I feel like with Qualcomm, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John short-sighted to take the giant bucket of money that Apple gave them. I mean, I guess Qualcomm has

⏹️ ▶️ John no choice. The point is they have to license them, and so now they have, but now that gives Apple the keys

⏹️ ▶️ John to be able to be the master of its own destiny and do its own chips. I feel like Apple’s one regret is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John we should have started that make your own modem thing two years ago, like two years earlier than we did, not two years ago.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whenever they started it, starting it two years before that would have saved them from this whole mess. And Intel, I’d love to talk to

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel and say, guys, I know you’re having trouble with your process thing, but this whole idea of

⏹️ ▶️ John let’s stick to the high margin, multi-core, 58 core, $30,000 server thing because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a better business, it kind of is, but how many times are you going to skip out

⏹️ ▶️ John on making the cheap consumer commodity part in large numbers

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s a low margin business? That’s, you can do that when, if you’re coming from a position

⏹️ ▶️ John of strength, but you’re not anymore. Like, I’m not saying they have to take every single deal, but Intel has a history of,

⏹️ ▶️ John like they passed on making the iPhone CPU. I’m sure they’ve passed on making stuff for game consoles,

⏹️ ▶️ John like all sorts of businesses that don’t look as good to them as their high margin,

⏹️ ▶️ John multi-core x86 CPU businesses. It’s true, they’re not as good businesses, but the

⏹️ ▶️ John volumes are high. And if you skip all of those, eventually the world just leaves you behind and every device that matters is

⏹️ ▶️ John using something other than an Intel chip in it. I’m sure they have better reasons

⏹️ ▶️ John than I can think of right now, but it just seems like not a great thing for Intel to

⏹️ ▶️ John be constantly retrenching because eventually the only thing they’re going to sell are the equivalent of mainframe chips and

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s not going to be a lot of them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think ultimately one reason that they might have had to retreat on this one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like Intel obviously has two big problems in this market. Number one is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they can’t get their crap together to even ship their existing products. They can’t even keep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their mainstream product line going at a healthy rate without massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems. And so that’s problem number two, is that the right time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get into the cell modem business was 10 years ago. Like, they’re a little late.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I imagine anyone who tries to enter this business now including Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably has a pretty serious set of problems on their hand that A, they’re starting from zero, and B,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have patent issues. major, major patent issues. And that’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the kind of thing that does not get solved quickly or easily. Like, if you wanted to start a cell modem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco business today, as Apple apparently has rumored to have done, or has actually said they’re doing, whatever it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, that’s a massive undertaking that is gonna take

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years and years and years before there’s gonna be any payoff whatsoever. And even then, as soon as you release something, Qualcomm’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna sue you, and that’s gonna take years and years to resolve, and you might be on the hook for lots of money after that. So like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s just a lot of challenges in entering the market of cell modems now, today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which is, and Intel started a few years ago, but like, they didn’t start 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, when they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably should have.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, we’re all holding Intel cell modems on our phones right now, as we all have 10S, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that, like, Intel has been Apple’s supplier while they’ve been fighting with Qualcomm. So they’ve had some success

⏹️ ▶️ John in that area. Like, I don’t think that any, you know, remember the year when they had the, you could get the Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John modem, You get the other modem and there was debates

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco about which was. That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the iPhone 7 and I had the Intel one and it sucked.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. But since then, you know, it’s been a non, whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, however good they might be compared to the Qualcomm ones, it’s obviously Intel’s modems have been good enough that we

⏹️ ▶️ John have not had any discussions about the quality of the cell radios in our current iPhones or the previous gen

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. So like, but I guess that was the business was not, you know, attractive

⏹️ ▶️ John to Intel, you know, and and the process issue comes to a head

⏹️ ▶️ John where eventually everybody else offers, you know, Taiwan semiconductor seven nanometer things

⏹️ ▶️ John and Intel can’t match that. What does Intel do? Like, maybe just, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, concentrating, you know, so it’s not like Intel starting from zero. They’re already making someone. It’s just a question of can you make a five G one?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a larger effort. And as for being sued by Qualcomm, like everybody has to license these patents and the whole idea is that Qualcomm I’m supposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to let people license them. And that’s what that whole FTC argument is about.

⏹️ ▶️ John But Apple’s a cell modem thing, I think started several years ago. So I think they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of on track to be in the 2020 or 2021 iPhone, which

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s reasonable timeline given how long things take. If they’d started a year or two earlier, things would be better.

⏹️ ▶️ John But as things stand, I was saying everybody loses in some way. Everybody does,

⏹️ ▶️ John but Apple probably loses at least because the main thing Apple lost is the public

⏹️ ▶️ John opinion like they’re the loser in this thing. And it’s clear, right? You know, if, if you care about the horse race,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like Apple versus Qualcomm who won basically Qualcomm. But they, the main thing Qualcomm

⏹️ ▶️ John one is a bunch of money and Apple has a lot of that and and long term what Apple won

⏹️ ▶️ John is, you know, its freedom eventually.

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Rambo’s Week O’Leaks

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was a couple of weeks ago, maybe three or four weeks ago now that Apple had three or four consecutive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey days of releases and embargoes and things of that nature. Well, friend of the show,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Guy Rambeau has decided to mimic that, but with leaks. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this has been the The week-o-leaks, and we are recording on Wednesday the 17th.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I genuinely don’t know if more stuff is coming or not, but holy cow, it’s been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a busy last several days. So this started, I think, on the 13th, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually last week. That would be Saturday, with iOS 13 rumors, specifically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dark mode, detachable panels, Safari and Mail upgrades, an undue gesture, a new volume, a heads-up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey display, and more. So this starts with Guy Rambaud saying,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey long-awaited dark mode is finally coming to the iPhone and iPad with iOS 13. There’ll be system-wide dark mode

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that can be enabled in settings, including a high contrast version similar to what’s already available in macOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And speaking of macOS, the iPad apps that run on the Mac using Marspan will be able to take advantage of dark mode on both

⏹️ ▶️ Casey platforms. Additionally, there are many changes coming to the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with iOS 13, including the ability for apps to have multiple windows. Each window will be able to contain sheets that are initially attached

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to a portion of screen, but then can be detached with a drag gesture, becoming a card that can be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey moved around freely, similar to what an open source project called PanelKit could do. And I think I heard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Upgrade that apparently the developer of PanelKit now works for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple, which I did not know. So that’s kind of interesting as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, these cards can also be stacked on top of each other and use a depth effect to indicate which cards are on top and which are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the bottom. Cards can be flung away to dismiss them. That’s a lot. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just day one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, all these things sound like I mean, dark mode, we more or less knew was coming.

⏹️ ▶️ John The volume HUD, as noted in the article, has been joke for such a long time. It’s one of those overdue things

⏹️ ▶️ John that they complained about the volume HUD in case you’re new to iOS or don’t see anything wrong with it, is that when

⏹️ ▶️ John you change the volume, a gigantic square comes in the middle of your screen and hides things that are behind it. Lots of apps

⏹️ ▶️ John override that. And we all love those apps where you can. I mean, Instagram is example, but basically any

⏹️ ▶️ John good player application or whatever replaces the volume HUD with a tiny thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John is tucked into an unused portion of the screen due to like letterbox video or whatever or is

⏹️ ▶️ John at the very top at the very bottom and just shows like a line filling or whatever. So the article doesn’t say what it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ John to be, but anything other than a giant thing in the middle of the screen that obscures the video will be great.

⏹️ ▶️ John The mail upgrade I thought was interesting because I mean the safari mail stuff they they talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John those applications getting more features, which after yesterday’s, yesterday’s last week’s show, where

⏹️ ▶️ John we were worried about Marzipan apps coming to the Mac and just being

⏹️ ▶️ John like a Macified equivalence of their iOS versions that

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have a lot of features. Maybe it wasn’t entirely clear in the last show,

⏹️ ▶️ John or I think we mentioned a few times, like we don’t know what the Marzipan apps that come to the Mac are gonna be

⏹️ ▶️ John like. Like, we’re worried that they might have far fewer features, but

⏹️ ▶️ John we don’t actually know. So here is one of the first rumors that’s not even about the Mac. It’s about

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS and saying, hey, the mail application on iOS might get some new features added

⏹️ ▶️ John to it, which happens from time to time in small amounts. But it turns

⏹️ ▶️ John the knob slightly towards the possibility that Mars

⏹️ ▶️ John Van apps on the Mac might not be as feature poor as they are in iOS 12,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially if the iOS 13 incarnations have a bunch more features. Now, maybe they have a bunch of more features because those

⏹️ ▶️ John features were added partially in service of the Mars band version, which would be the advantage of Apple being able to

⏹️ ▶️ John put a single team on mail for all of its platforms. So when they add

⏹️ ▶️ John features, they don’t need to add them to the iOS version and to the Mac version. They just add it to one version. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, I found that, uh, you know, encouraging. And

⏹️ ▶️ John then the undo gesture, what they say is like three fingers on the keyboard and a swipe.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s better than shaking the phone, but it’s still an awkward gesture. And if the keyboard is up, as

⏹️ ▶️ John Gruber pointed out, you’ve got undo and redo buttons right above the keyboard most of the time anyway. So I’m not entirely

⏹️ ▶️ John sure how awesome that’s going to be, except trying to explain to people how they accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John did a bunch of typing and then it all disappeared. And it’s like, oh, you accidentally three finger swiped on your keyboard because you were typing really fast

⏹️ ▶️ John or something. But hopefully that gesture, like the other multitasking gestures, will be able to be turned off or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, all these things, they sound good to me. These features sound good.

⏹️ ▶️ John None of them sound stupid or frivolous or

⏹️ ▶️ John particularly unexpected, except for the addition of features to the applications.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, this, I mean, the keyboard undo thing, I don’t really care about, honestly. yet another

⏹️ ▶️ Marco multi-finger, complex, undiscoverable gesture to fix keyboard navigation on iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, no one’s gonna find it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Assuming that even ships, by the way, because that type of feature is very easy to play with and have experimentally in builds

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, you know what, nevermind.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, and I do think if you look at the information that they are reporting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here in these various reports that we’ve gotten over the last few days, it sure seems like this is coming from a class

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dump, or it seems like somebody has access to a build, But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think Guy Rambeau has a build. Because if he had a build, he could get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like resources and images and things out of that build. That could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably be more newsworthy than the features that might exist. So I’m guessing this is reporting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on somebody who has access to a class dump of the build. Because it’s sounding like features that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might exist in the SDK. And that might have function names and class names

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can be seen in the SDK. So that’s what this sounds like to me. And based on that, then that supports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what you said, John, that this might not ship. There might be a class called

⏹️ ▶️ Marco KeyboardMultiFingerUndoGesture or something like that, but that might not be enabled at the end

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whatever build ships. Even if it’s enabled at the WBC seed, that still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might not ship this fall. So all that aside,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the multi-window panel kit-like thing I think is very interesting. There’s a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of challenges with getting rich functionality in iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And part of it, you know, initially, in the early days of iOS, there were hardware limitations,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there were screen size limitations, there were limitations in the kind of sophistication that the software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could even enable in any reasonable way. But over time, many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those limitations have gone away or have been significantly lifted. The hardware is now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more powerful than many laptops, even many desktops like John’s. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco software is incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey capable,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s tons of APIs, but one of the biggest challenges

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we still have on iOS and in all touch-based OSes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is how do they expose complex functionality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a way that is discoverable at all at all and that works with touch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that isn’t hideously ugly or confusing and those are really hard design challenges.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the cool things about PanelKit is that it basically is like an extension of popovers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It basically like treats popovers as like detachable panes that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can then like dock into a sidebar is kind of how I can summarize this and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does this with minimal new UI. And as we, as we think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about how to expand, especially the iPad, like on the phone, you’re kind of limited by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen size and you know, oftentimes you need to be, need to operate things one handed and so not needing controls to be very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far away or near the corners or anything. So like on the phone, I don’t think we have a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco UI innovation left to do if with like multitasking and advanced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco operations because there just isn’t space really. But on the iPad is where things get really interesting and especially as you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you think about now like combining iPad and Mac designs in the future or having designs that can adapt

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to both very easily the iPad suffers still so much from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lack of progressive disclosure of complexity and a lack of advanced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco functionality being present even in pro apps for things like customizing your workspace things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco multitasking having multiple windows or multiple tabs or whatever open and various things. And so to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strong rumors of significant progress in those areas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is very exciting to me. Now even though we don’t really know much of anything about what any of these things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, how they’re actually implemented, things like that, I am extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco excited about the apparent amount of work going into this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That Apple seems not to think that the iOS 11 version of multitasking is done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, sometimes Apple solves a problem, and then they don’t come back to it for years, if ever. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can tell they kind of just think, like, well, that’s a solid problem, check, done. And clearly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad multitasking is not done. Clearly, they have other plans, and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to make things more advanced for both multitasking and for what you can do inside of one app.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that, combined with Marzipan and everything, I’m just I’m very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco excited even though we know so little I’m very excited to see where all this goes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it I think Again like it’s hard to know for sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because there’s so much that’s still speculation Optimistic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco predictions wish list type things, but I think Apple has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their head on straight again after some years kind of in the wilderness

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with lots of different things regarding power users and pros and hardware and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco software. It sure seems like they have their heads on straight again. And that’s why I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco optimistic that this is going to be good. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think Apple’s still taking a pretty cautious approach here, like, and the main problem I feel like is that nobody

⏹️ ▶️ John knows the answer yet, including Apple. So if you look at the

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of more complex applications on the iPad, they’ve all been experimenting with different ways that deal with complexity

⏹️ ▶️ John of user interface in their own way. And none of them is

⏹️ ▶️ John so clearly the one and only way. Apple, and none of them come from Apple. So if you are

⏹️ ▶️ John making a sort of professional complex iPad application, you’re kind of on your own. You can look at your

⏹️ ▶️ John competitors and you can come up with some ideas on your own. You can try some experiments, but there’s no OS

⏹️ ▶️ John framework level standard for the type of things that you need to do. You need to invent

⏹️ ▶️ John it yourself. So I feel like what Apple’s doing here is not like, we’ve come up with an entirely new paradigm of how to

⏹️ ▶️ John use the iPad. It’s, well, I can see a bunch of apps out there that are complex enough that they need

⏹️ ▶️ John more than we offer, and sort of look at what they all do. And what is the main need that most people

⏹️ ▶️ John are filling? And I guess maybe, you know, according to this rumor, it’s like decided like, well, you need some way

⏹️ ▶️ John to have some kind of panel card thingy

⏹️ ▶️ John that is not like a full-fledged window window. It’s not like a, you know, We’re not turning into a multi-window

⏹️ ▶️ John interface where you have separate documents open and separate windows, but it’s like, you have bits of your user interface and you want to

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to break them out and arrange them, and so we’re gonna provide a system level framework to do

⏹️ ▶️ John that one thing. Which doesn’t seem like it’s that significant. It’s like, well, I could do that already if I rolled my

⏹️ ▶️ John own. It’s true, but by Apple, not really picking a winner, but by Apple sort of putting its foot down and

⏹️ ▶️ John saying, this is an important enough need that

⏹️ ▶️ John there should be a system, standard system control for it. And you won’t have to

⏹️ ▶️ John write it, and we will hopefully make it good enough that we’ll encourage you to use it in your app. It will save you a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John development time, and if a bunch of people use it and find it useful, their apps will work more like each other. It’s the whole point of the GUI, that if

⏹️ ▶️ John you learn one app, you can transfer those skills to another. But there are so many

⏹️ ▶️ John issues with dealing with complex operations on the iPad. This does not solve all of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John To your point, Marco, shows that they are going in the right direction. They’re recognizing this need, and they’re not going to be like,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, we’ve done all that we need to do, and people can just make their own custom apps with their own custom UIs, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like everything’s going to be KAIST power tools. That may be a reference before your time, but like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco do completely. No, I got it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like, we don’t provide controls for the giant, scaly, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John speckled orb. But you can make one of your own, and then, you know, anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m happy that they’re doing this, but it’s still very cautious. Like, no one has the

⏹️ ▶️ John full sort of, here is how to do, here is a sort of regular

⏹️ ▶️ John toolkit for dealing with complexity, dealing with functional complexity. The Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John has a very regularized toolkit for dealing with functional complexity. It may not be the world’s best toolkit, but it is

⏹️ ▶️ John eminently composable. It involves windows, resizable windows, menu bars, palettes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, there’s very few sort of nouns and verbs, but you can compose

⏹️ ▶️ John them on a very large screen to solve very complex problems. It doesn’t make for a particularly friendly interface,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you can get the functionality out there and you can make an application that lets people create

⏹️ ▶️ John an on-screen environment where they can get their work done. Witness every pro application you could possibly

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine, right? Photoshop and Logic and CAD applications and all,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like anything with lots of menu commands and lots of floating windows and toolbars

⏹️ ▶️ John and palettes. But simply porting that to the iPad is probably not

⏹️ ▶️ John the right thing to do. But they’ve got to do something. So and keep in mind that everything we’re seeing in

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 13 supposedly is stuff that might have been in iOS 12, but they decided

⏹️ ▶️ John let’s not ship it half-baked and saved it. So hopefully when it comes in 13, it’ll be nice and polished.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I still think even after 13, like we’re on this we’re on this sort of a two-year Vatici cycle where

⏹️ ▶️ John he has to wait around for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for

⏹️ ▶️ John enhancements

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to the iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then he gets a huge amount of them. And then there’s a quiet year. Then he gets another huge amount. I really hope this is

⏹️ ▶️ John a big year. Like, you know, obviously these are just rumors. And we have no idea what’s really coming. And it could be way more

⏹️ ▶️ John than even these rumors suggest. But this seems like a year where the iPad’s going to get a bunch of stuff. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John still, I mean, we’ll wait and see. But I still feel like from the rumors so far, there is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a grand unified vision of how to deal with functional complexity on the iPad. But

⏹️ ▶️ John there is one more tool in the tool belt that seems to be mostly based

⏹️ ▶️ John on the sort of real world research and development done by third party developers

⏹️ ▶️ John coalesced into an apple blessed version, which is great. That’s that’s the way many things work and the

⏹️ ▶️ John apple world and it’s fine. But I think there’s also room for the other side of that, which is apple coming up with a really good idea

⏹️ ▶️ John and rolling that out. And you know that that might be coming to uh, there’s another rumor later

⏹️ ▶️ John on if we get to it from macOS that potentially relates to some of apple’s ideas about how

⏹️ ▶️ John how to deal with that. But in the meantime, I still feel like Apple is being cautious and that caution is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John warranted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I’d be interested to see or try to discover

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how this is implemented on the iPad versus on the Mac. Like let’s say that we get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey PanelKit, obviously it’d be different, but for the sake of conversation, we need a name for it. So let’s say we get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey PanelKit on the iPad on iOS, but then we also have to support that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well not we, Apple has to support that on macOS, potentially, because Marzipan,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t help but wonder if the under the hood implementation would be very different, even if the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey APIs would be the same. So what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the iPad is not a new window is actually like an NS window or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on macOS. And to be fair, I know very little about macOS programming, so I might have already butchered the idea

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here. But do you know what I mean? It would be fascinating to me if there was one API that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was common between Mac OS and iOS, but the implementation was wildly different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey between the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey two.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the

⏹️ ▶️ John old world. That’s the old world of like share sheets and extensions and things that are ostensibly the same

⏹️ ▶️ John and have very similar APIs, but are implemented totally differently under the covers. I feel like the promise of marzipan

⏹️ ▶️ John is and actually they’re implemented the same way under the covers because it’s all UI get under there. Like I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re in a position to pull that off. Um, and who knows how, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John is implemented under the covers, whether underneath that there is some,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, AppKit stuff lurking, who knows? Historically, we have Carbon and Cocoa

⏹️ ▶️ John as examples of two APIs that were separate but also had

⏹️ ▶️ John a surprising amount of sharing, where it was very difficult to make any Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John application that was purely Cocoa or purely Carbon back when they were sort of mixed together

⏹️ ▶️ John in various bits under the covers. But I think the promise of this new system is let’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John do that anymore and let’s literally have the same framework That runs on both

⏹️ ▶️ John platforms and granted with behavioral differences to your point Casey that you can’t actually make them the same

⏹️ ▶️ John because I mean The Mac just doesn’t work like iOS everything’s not trapped inside this

⏹️ ▶️ John one frame and like having a panel, you know Like you can’t on the iPad. You can’t really

⏹️ ▶️ John take a thing outside the bounds of the thing because some window is always filling up the whole

⏹️ ▶️ John screen. Like you can’t, there’s no, as far as I’m aware, no one has ever, there

⏹️ ▶️ John is no way in iOS to peek out, peek, you know, behind

⏹️ ▶️ John the currently running application. Like as if you could see like your springboard hiding behind there. Like I don’t even think it

⏹️ ▶️ John is behind there, right? It’s not like it is on the Mac where your applications are floating on top of a bunch of other stuff. But

⏹️ ▶️ John that is the way it is on the Mac. So there’s going to be different differences, but I really think the promise here is

⏹️ ▶️ John finally a unified code base underneath it all, even if it is super awkward for the first few years, because it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John going to look like phone stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, moving on. We also heard that Apple is revamping Find My Friends and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Find My iPhone into a unified app. And additionally, they’re going to develop a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tile-like personal item tracking device. So this is several things in one. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey merging Find My iPhone, Find My Friends, are just fairly self-explanatory. And it seems like it’ll carry

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through most of the features you would expect between the two. Uh, apparently the new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app will create or will let you create your quote unquote find network, which includes devices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and family and friends and things from that, of that nature. And then additionally, uh, Apple also want,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is reading from G now. Apple also wants users to be able to track any item, not just their Apple devices, using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this new unified app. The company’s working on a new hardware product known only as quote B389 by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people involved in its development. This new product will be a tag that can be attached to any item similar to other products like Tile.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The tag will be paired to the user’s iCloud account by proximity to an iPhone like AirPods. Users will be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to receive notifications when their device gets too far away from the tag, preventing them from forgetting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the item the tag is attached to. And then finally, you can put this tag thing in lost mode and then apparently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it will show your own contact information on other people’s iPhones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if they they happen to be within range of it, which is not, you know, brand new ideas, but seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a really, really solid implementation thereof. Uh, I do use find my friends, particularly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Aaron, but occasionally for friends. Uh, and I very rarely use find my iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but man, when I need it, I am very happy to have it. I don’t have any tiles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or tile like devices at the moment, but I, all this sounds really good. I mean, nothing, again, nothing earth shattering,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but all this sounds really good. How do you feel about this, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am really intrigued. It sounds like a good idea. I mean, I don’t think there’s that much to say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. I am very curious to see if that dedicated hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco item ships that would basically be like, you know, a tile replacement. That just, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just seems unlike the kind of thing Apple would do. So that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just seems odd to me. So I wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t ship. or maybe it’s some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco odd, like not really meant for mass consumers kind of thing, like Bluetooth LE tags and things,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like maybe you’re supposed to use these for other business to business uses or who knows what.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But anyway, I do think it’s smart to take advantage of the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has a lot of access to Bluetooth proximity radios and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like that. The types of wireless communications, the kind of ad hoc communications

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that AirDrop is based on, where your phones don’t have to know about each other to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talk to each other. They don’t have to be on the same network. They don’t have to be on Wi-Fi at all,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco necessarily, and they can form their own little Wi-Fi network with a combination of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi that coordinates things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So they have access to these radios. They also have, they started in, I think the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last or the one before that version of iOS, where if you do things like turn off Bluetooth,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you have an Apple Watch paired, which communicates over Bluetooth, it can still communicate with the phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like when you hit the Bluetooth off thing in Control Center, it turns off most Bluetooth devices, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not all Bluetooth devices. It leaves the Apple Watch connected if you have one. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve already kind of like broken the seal on making those radio off toggles

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not 100% off and not for all things and not all the time. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they were to do something like this, where a phone that’s been told to iCloud that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lost, maybe its radios get forced on, and then it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can talk to other devices through this Bluetooth-based proximity system,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then it can be found better. And like the thieves, if it’s stolen, can’t just turn the radios

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off. They have to actually power the whole phone down to prevent it from being found this way. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like a cool idea. It’s certainly probably gonna be more useful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to actually locate lost and stolen devices. So, sounds pretty cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t necessarily think they’re gonna broaden it to other products with this weird hardware tag thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but just as a way to improve Find My iPhone, that sounds awesome. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also, I’m not entirely sure why Find My iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would ever be in the same app as Find My Friends.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I can tell you why. Like, I’m so glad that they’re combining these apps because there’s a constant

⏹️ ▶️ John source of frustration for me. So I use Find My Friends, which is an inappropriately named

⏹️ ▶️ John application because I use it to find my family most of the time. I think Find

⏹️ ▶️ John My Friends tries to be smart. Like it’s trying to help you find a person, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John right there in the name of the application. But because we’re a house full

⏹️ ▶️ John of multiple people and multiple devices, sometimes it’s confused about

⏹️ ▶️ John what it wants to be doing. So I’ll try to find out where my daughter is I’ll go to find my friends and I’ll see her little icon

⏹️ ▶️ John on the overhead view of my house. But I know she’s not in my house, but her phone is in the

⏹️ ▶️ John house and it thinks by finding her phone it has found her. What I wanted to do is find her watch,

⏹️ ▶️ John but find my friends as far as I’m aware doesn’t give you that granularity. So you go to find my iPhone and

⏹️ ▶️ John also an inappropriately named application which lets you find all the devices that belong to anybody

⏹️ ▶️ John in your family. So I go to find my iPhone and I select my daughter’s Apple Watch

⏹️ ▶️ John and then I find out where she really is, right? And I don’t, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John having two different applications, one that’s like a limited sort of, I’ll guess which device you mean, and the other one,

⏹️ ▶️ John which just gives you a big list of devices. I want them combined. It’s basically like, find

⏹️ ▶️ John like, I applaud the idea of helping me find the person and being smart about like whatever device

⏹️ ▶️ John the motion sensor says is moving or whatever, you know, I, I think that’s a good idea. But I don’t want to have to go to a

⏹️ ▶️ John different app if that thing gets it wrong. And in the end, the sort of very

⏹️ ▶️ John straightforward bottom level of like, just find my devices, I can use that to

⏹️ ▶️ John figure out what I want to do in the worst case. So combining them into a new application that is not called

⏹️ ▶️ John Find My Friends, that is also not called Find My iPhone, will really help. And history has

⏹️ ▶️ John shown that I am the only one in my family who understands this separation, because very often they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John say I did, I tried to find out where somebody was, and it shows they’re here, but they’re not really there. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, well, you have to use to find my iPhone. It’s like, but I don’t want to find that iPhone. It’s like, I know, just, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not my phone. I want to find, you know, my daughter’s. It’s like, just, it’s in that app. Trust me, just scroll. Yep, keep

⏹️ ▶️ John scrolling. There’s more, see the list there. It’s there, it’s our daughter’s devices, and then pick her up, yeah. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that unification is long overdue, and it’s a great idea. As for the tile thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t know anything about hardware rumors. Apple has all sorts of ideas that it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John ship. The thing that occurred to me when I saw this was, that could be a Logitech device,

⏹️ ▶️ John or you know, Apple farms a lot of stuff out to other vendors these days. So just

⏹️ ▶️ John because it has a code name and there’s code supporting it in the OS, doesn’t necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ John mean it’s a first party Apple product. It could be something that they essentially build for a third party

⏹️ ▶️ John and a third party sells or whatever. So anyway, I can also see it being an Apple thing because it would be a very small

⏹️ ▶️ John piece of white plastic and Apple loves to sell us those. Very, very

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey true.

⏹️ ▶️ John It could be square even. A white plastic square, that is Apple’s core demo.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ooh, ooh, ooh. What if we did a rounded rect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John instead?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’d have to be, what is it called? The super ellipse? The Johnny Ive curve? Wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John that be great? Something shaped like an iOS app icon that’s perfect for children to swallow.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Can’t go

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong. Kids

⏹️ ▶️ Casey love apps. We’ll sell millions. All right, finally, or maybe not finally,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but finally for tonight Anyway, Mac OS 10.15 rumors.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m happy to summarize this, but I have a feeling that, John, you and Marco are frothing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the mouth. John, do you want to take it away on this one?

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, summarize? Oh, that’s why I did all these things in bold. OK, so this

⏹️ ▶️ John rumor is the ability to send any window of any app to an external display, which

⏹️ ▶️ John a sentence that doesn’t make much sense from a Mac user’s perspective is, if I have multiple displays

⏹️ ▶️ John on my Mac, I can quote unquote send any window there, I just drag it there. That’s how windows

⏹️ ▶️ John work. Again, getting back to the fairly flexible, generic, composable

⏹️ ▶️ John UI paradigm that is the Mac with a bunch of resizable windows that you drag around and the multi-screen paradigm where you

⏹️ ▶️ John have screens that you arrange in relation to each other in 2D space and that you drag the windows between

⏹️ ▶️ John the screens and all that stuff. But the key part here is the external display can be an

⏹️ ▶️ John actual external display connected to the Mac or even an iPad. Now, before I get to the iPad part,

⏹️ ▶️ John the sending part is in the vocabulary of people who are not my people, who

⏹️ ▶️ John full screen everything. And I can imagine if you have multiple monitors and full screening

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s still kind of a headache to get the things to display on the screens that you want and all that other stuff. So

⏹️ ▶️ John having either a better UI or a better API or both for

⏹️ ▶️ John sending a full screen window to the screen you want is great. But of course, when that other screen is an iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, what is that third party product? What is that, Luna Display, maybe? There’s a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey of products that do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John It basically lets you use your iPad, your very expensive iPad with a very nice screen on it,

⏹️ ▶️ John as essentially an external display for your Mac, even though it’s not connected to your Mac by a cable. You can do it, it does it wirelessly,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Yeah. So that’s cool, that’s a great idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John This feature’s called Sidecar, which makes some sense. It’s like your iPad is like a sidecar to your Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I love that name. Don’t even start. I love that name. I think it’s delightful. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John it gives more details in the article about how you can move a window to an

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad in full screen mode or whatever. And apparently you can also, once you have that window on your

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad, again, it’s just your Mac displaying a Mac application or whatever, a Mars Pen application on your iPad as

⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s an external display. But then you can take the pencil and draw on the iPad and it counts

⏹️ ▶️ John as input for the Mac, which is super neat. And so basically turns your iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John into a little sort of Cintiq style tablet for your Mac presumably the lag is acceptable

⏹️ ▶️ John and all that other stuff and then there’s some more info about Snapping windows

⏹️ ▶️ John to the side and doing all you know You’ve seen in Microsoft Windows that have all sorts of features and keyboard commands that you

⏹️ ▶️ John accidentally hit that take windows and Divvy and you know like

⏹️ ▶️ John slamming the window against the right edge will make it fill the right third of your screen or the top half or the bottom half.

⏹️ ▶️ John There are tons of utilities for the Mac that do similar things. The Mac itself, the current version of Mac OS,

⏹️ ▶️ John has features vaguely related to this in terms of splitting the screen. Obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not a fan of these features because I feel like that paradigm is not as pleasing to me

⏹️ ▶️ John as the paradigm of resizable windows, but lots of people do like to… they feel comforted

⏹️ ▶️ John by the simplicity of having either one application fill their entire screen

⏹️ ▶️ John or one application be on the right and one on the left or one on the top or one on the bottom or quadrants or all sorts of tiling

⏹️ ▶️ John window manager stuff. So this seems like more features to help those people. Now, all

⏹️ ▶️ John that said, in my experience watching people who

⏹️ ▶️ John are not like me use the Mac, like basically most, most people, most people using the Mac, I mentioned before that I

⏹️ ▶️ John see them all use full screen all the time, uh, often because they’re on laptops and that maximizes your,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, you know, the room you have for your content. I don’t see a lot of people using

⏹️ ▶️ John tiling window managers. I don’t see a lot of people using the existing features that were added like Sierra or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John for splitting the screen. They’re not particularly obvious. It’s not particularly obvious how to trigger

⏹️ ▶️ John them. And most people don’t know third party Mac applications exist at all. So how would they know to go find

⏹️ ▶️ John something like moom or whatever and, you know, use that. I was

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that on the of all the people I’ve seen use iOS devices, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John seen more of them use split screen just because it is literally the only way to get more than one thing

⏹️ ▶️ John on the screen at a time that people find themselves forced to learn it. Like if you want to be if you

⏹️ ▶️ John want to be more productive than just seeing one whole application full whole screen at any time ever, ever, you have to learn this. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Mac, you never have to learn those gestures because you can just use regular resizable windows and you can

⏹️ ▶️ John just exit full screen mode and not again, not an option on the the iPad. There is no exiting full screen mode on the iPad. All you can

⏹️ ▶️ John do is split it and swipe it and do all that other stuff. So these features

⏹️ ▶️ John are a little bit of a head scratcher for me because I feel like it’s kind of adding enhancements

⏹️ ▶️ John to features that are not widely used anyway and that are generally both inferior

⏹️ ▶️ John and not as obvious as the existing features that the Mac uses to deal

⏹️ ▶️ John with multiple Windows essentially. But I’m glad they’re doing something

⏹️ ▶️ John having to do with window management and the sidecar thing sounds like a great way to sell more people iPads because if you can use

⏹️ ▶️ John your the iPad that you already bought as a really cool tablet for your Mac, especially if it has really

⏹️ ▶️ John good Apple Pencil support, that’s great. Like that’s, you know, that’s a big win for everybody.

⏹️ ▶️ John If the lag is acceptable, like you know, I’ve who wouldn’t want that I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John Wacom or however you pronounce the name of that company probably doesn’t like it. But I’m kind of looking forward to that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I, you know, it may be a reason that we could end up with a

⏹️ ▶️ John new iPad mouse, which thus far we’ve avoided. But if we can do this cool thing, especially if it’s only for iPad Pros or some

⏹️ ▶️ John other feature like that, we might end up with a new one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, as someone who does believe in full screening Windows or split screening, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think this sounds really great. I really do. I think taking the Windows snapping,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t remember the name of it and I’m sorry, but whatever the snappy thing is that Windows does.

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft Windows has, you’re talking about that feature?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, where you just, you know, as you had described it earlier, John, where you’d, let’s say, drag a title bar to the very right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey extreme edge of the screen and then it takes up the right hand, then Windows will resize

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that window to take up half of the screen. Jay Strachan in the chat room

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is saying it’s called Snap. That sounds right to me. But anyway, like that feature is super convenient. And pretty much

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone I’ve ever seen use Windows, even not power users, understand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how that works and leverages it. I like having my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac screens split up into like tiles. I know that that drives you insane, John, but that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just the way I like to use my computer. And so anything that makes us better, I think sounds great.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the idea of having like a software-based Luna display also tentatively

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sounds good. I don’t recall if Luna was sponsored in the past. I don’t know if they’re sponsoring in the future. I paid my own money for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, and I can tell you it is really fricking good. And I do love this thing. I love it even despite the fact that it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey takes up the one and only USB-C port on my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John poor

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ John But- Does it have the pencil support too?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I guess, I’ve never really tried it, but I guess you can’t really draw a pencil

⏹️ ▶️ Casey onto the Mac. No, I see your point. No, then I guess it doesn’t. But again, I’ve never tried it, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John entirely sure. I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, that would be the type of thing that would be easy for Apple to add and difficult for a third party to add if the OS didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey support it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sure. Because you have to get those input events efficiently to software running on the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, again, I’ve never tried it, but I mean, even just the quote-unquote regular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Luna display, it works stunningly well, and I really do like it. And when I do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey travel with just the MacBook and my iPad Pro, you know, say if I’m going to the library to do work or something,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is very convenient to have that. So all of this sounds great. Sidecar sounds great. The Snappy thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sounds great. The Wacom thing, eh, whatever. I mean, it’s not really for me, I don’t think,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it’s still cool, it’s still very awesome if you’re the kind of person that needs that sort of thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So yeah, this isn’t maybe, except maybe sidecar, I don’t know if this is quite as sexy as the other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things we’ve talked about, but I’m in, I’m excited about

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Real-time follow-up, the app, the existing third-party app does it, it’s called AstroPad.

⏹️ ▶️ John They let you use the pencil. Turn your iPad into a professional graphics tablet. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ John another example of. Oh, and that’s by Luna, actually. of Apple seeing what,

⏹️ ▶️ John seeing third party applications are doing and then coming up with the first party implementation of it. But this is much

⏹️ ▶️ John more of a, I mean this is the risk any time you add something that could be an

⏹️ ▶️ John OS level feature. The risk is that Apple will eventually make it an OS level feature. In general, users like it when that happened,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the makers of the applications that are essentially Sherlocked probably don’t like it. They can still exist

⏹️ ▶️ John because they can have features that Apple’s never going to add and yada yada. And of course they got to make all that money before Apple came out with

⏹️ ▶️ John this feature. but AstroPad folks are probably a little bit bummed if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this rumor turns out to be true. Well, and I think it actually, I think it is likely to be true

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in part because it sounds like a really good idea, also in part because we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been hearing about this for like two years. Like, ATB Tipser told us about this back when he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was still alive, before he perished in a maple syrup fire. He was talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this like two years ago as like something that was about to ship for Mac OS. So we’ve been hearing this for a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco long time. they’ve probably been working on it for a long time, since even before Lunar Display

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was a thing that we knew about. So this might be like a simultaneous invention kind of thing, not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they saw Lunar Display and had to ape it like six months later. I think they’ve been working on this for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, I guess the fact that third-party apps could exist probably means there was some amount of plumbing was already

⏹️ ▶️ John there in the OS that they were able to build on top of. Yeah, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s a type of feature that if you’re Apple, it’s easy to make an argument for. It’s like it makes our

⏹️ ▶️ John products more valuable. Like it makes you more likely to buy both a Mac and an iPad because they’re great products

⏹️ ▶️ John separately and there’s also a synergy where they work together. And we know people like to use

⏹️ ▶️ John tablets with screens on them like the Wacom Cintiq thing. Like that is a product that has

⏹️ ▶️ John proven its popularity but it’s an extra purchase. And those tablets are not cheap. I own

⏹️ ▶️ John one sitting right here and I think it was something like $800. Like that’s iPad level prices. And that

⏹️ ▶️ John tablet is useless when not connected to a Mac like an iPad, which is not useless when not connected to a Mac. So

⏹️ ▶️ John this seems like a really good idea for everybody. Descending windows and the splitting

⏹️ ▶️ John though, I’m not sure. Casey, I’m curious when you see other people using Macs, you like to

⏹️ ▶️ John use the split stuff that I added a couple of years back. Do you see other people use that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, it’s hard to say because now the only people I see using a Mac is my coworker

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and she generally uses her iPhone. So Erin is not on her Mac very often. And in fact, her

⏹️ ▶️ Casey poor MacBook Air, the same one that’s been in the drink a couple times, I haven’t updated to. It’s about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as updated in terms of OSs as your cheese grater is. But I’m trying to remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I was at work, I don’t remember one way or the other seeing a lot of full screen stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey My inclination is to say no, I did not see a lot of full screen use or split screen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use.

⏹️ ▶️ John But- Not full screen, but split screen specifically. Full screen, whatever, but like I say, for the people who were in full screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John Do they even know the Mac OS splitting thing exists? Have you ever seen anyone use it besides yourself?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, not to my recollection. No. And to be honest, it’s not terribly discoverable. Like what you have to do is you have to mash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down on the green. I don’t know what the technical term is, but the green light in the upper left of a window, you mash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down on that and hold for a few seconds. And then it kind of like shrinks or it, it, it makes that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey take up half the, or it queues it up to take up half the screen, and then you can. Uh, make a selection of what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you want the other half of the screen to be like it is by no means perfect, but it is workable.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I would, again, I would love to have the like arrow snap style thing at a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Windows. Yeah, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it is even less discoverable than the Microsoft Windows equivalent feature

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey because

⏹️ ▶️ John like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ John said, you could accidentally discover it on Windows pretty easily. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John more people would use it on the Mac if it was more discoverable or if there weren’t other options.

⏹️ ▶️ John To be fair, I don’t see a lot of people using the splits on the iPad either, but it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John same type of thing on Windows. I think you can accidentally discover that. Like, I know because I accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John do whatever the slide in from the side, what do they call that on iOS, where you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey swipe from the side? Yeah, I do it all the time. So even if you

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t know that feature exists, you may find yourself discovering it. And once you do discover it, you’re like, oh, that’s useful, I can

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine that being useful, and then you just get annoyed when you do it accidentally. I mean, that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John to complain about iOS, but like, I don’t know how

⏹️ ▶️ John tenable it is to, like, I was saying before that Apple’s being cautious with

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 12, or 13 rather, with the rumored features that we think they’re adding for panels or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the main thing that Apple has thus far not been willing to let go of, which I

⏹️ ▶️ John think is probably the right move, but it’s limiting them, is extending everything to the

⏹️ ▶️ John edge. Like, the menu bar doesn’t really exist as a system level thing in

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS, despite the fact that various iOS applications have toyed with having their own menu bar.

⏹️ ▶️ John The edges of the screen, like there is, your thing always takes up the entire screen, which is a paradigm that was

⏹️ ▶️ John introduced when it was absolutely the right thing to do on a tiny little phone screen. But as like on the big

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad, that’s bigger than laptop screens used to be. Not being able to have any kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of margin or any kind of OS level permanent thing, whether it be a dock or a shelf

⏹️ ▶️ John or a menu bar or a toolbar or anything like that, and having everything extend all the way to the

⏹️ ▶️ John edges means that you’re fighting for, like the reason you accidentally do

⏹️ ▶️ John that swipe over gesture because if that gesture didn’t exist, how would you get that thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s invisibly off to the side? How would you get it? Every pixel on the screen is owned by a single

⏹️ ▶️ John application that has no idea about the thing over there. The only way you can get that is to come up with some kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of gesture because there’s nothing on the screen and no way to invoke a

⏹️ ▶️ John thing other than a gesture to say, application, this is not for you. I’m telling the OS,

⏹️ ▶️ John show me the little thing that’s off to the side or whatever. If you didn’t extend all the way to the edges or

⏹️ ▶️ John any kind of OS level UI or Chrome anywhere on the iPad, you would have

⏹️ ▶️ John some kind of like escape hatch, porthole, like imagine if it was just like one little square, like a tiny little

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple menu or something some part of the screen that is owned by the OS that you could use to

⏹️ ▶️ John tell the OS to do something related to windowing. But we don’t have that. All we’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John are gestures and swipes and in the old days, double tapping the home button, like

⏹️ ▶️ John anything out of band, anything that we can say, application, this is not for you. And even with the gestures, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John conflicts of like, just Fruit Ninja or whatever that game was, fighting with the

⏹️ ▶️ John multitasking gestures of the five finger swipe to go back to springboard and all that other stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure how long they can keep that up. Obviously, it’s probably still

⏹️ ▶️ John absolutely the right thing to do on the phone and maybe even on smaller iPads, but as iPads become bigger and more capable,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a war for the pixels on the screen on the iPad, and I think the OS has to win

⏹️ ▶️ John at least a pixel or two. Just two secret pixels up in the left-hand corner that if you can find a way to tap them with your fatty

⏹️ ▶️ John meat fingers, congratulations, you get an Apple menu or some kind of toolbar or popover

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. Because I don’t think gestures, like gestures are great, but they’re totally

⏹️ ▶️ John non-discoverable, they’re easy to do accidentally, and when it comes to complex applications

⏹️ ▶️ John that people use that have lots of functionality,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s hard enough to get that functionality into the app and then to say, oh, by the way, the OS has a bunch of features too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Where do those get to go? It’s like, those can only be invisible, sorry. I don’t think that’s sustainable long-term.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They just need a little pie icon in the bottom right. That’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John solve all the

⏹️ ▶️ John problems. Those pixels are owned by the app, sorry. I get the reference. I get it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey too. Aw, thanks Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ John We all get the reference. Sure you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Casey makes a reference and we all don’t say, that’s from the net. Doesn’t mean we don’t know it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It just means that we’re letting, like we’re all happy and proud of

⏹️ ▶️ John Casey for making a reference and we’re all smiling knowingly. Like when you did that, what did you do? The

⏹️ ▶️ John song reference the other day that Marco and I got, but we had to hear everybody tell us that we didn’t get it. Although I admit I was surprised that

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco got

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. What was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that? It was the black curtains in the white room.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, yeah. That’s right. Cream. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Did you know the Net was filmed in San Francisco’s Moscone Center

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Macworld on January 5th, 1995? I didn’t know that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Escape the system. Just think, their crew might have eaten the same box lunches

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we

⏹️ ▶️ John ate. Literally the same. They’ve just been sitting there since then.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, seriously.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Since 95. All right. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Jamf Now,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Linode. and we will talk to you next.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next week.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey begin, cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and

⏹️ ▶️ John Casey wouldn’t let him, cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental. And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes at And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S That’s Casey Liss,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M A-N-T Marco Armin,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse, it’s accidental They

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t mean to accidental Accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tech Podcasts, so long

Post-show: Heat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh God, I finally finished watching Heat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I did it off of your Plex, Casey. I mean I bought it of course, but I also watched it off of your Plex

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the version I bought looked too good and so I wanted to I wanted a crappier version so I streamed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it off your Plex and…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that was a direct Blu-ray rip that I did myself. Why? What was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrong? Streaming it off your Plex was challenging. Really?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That shouldn’t have been. I watched it over the course of two nights, and in both cases,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Plex had a very hard time streaming it consistently until I dropped the bandwidth down to 0.7 megabits,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at which point that finally streamed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey reliably and looked horrible. That is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco insane. Yeah. Really? It was. That being said, it matched my opinion of the movie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well, so it was fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey my God, I can already

⏹️ ▶️ John tell. Jared Ranere I dread this top four episode because I don’t agree with any of your tastes in movies.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven Poyer Yeah, this episode of top four might be the new, you know what we should do, John, is we should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rank the top

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John four Jared Ranere

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Top four episodes? Steven Poyer episodes of top four, no, no, that have the worst conclusions. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John we need to do. Jared Ranere

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do any of them have

⏹️ ▶️ John conclusions? That’s, well, whoever’s maintaining the top four wiki has their

⏹️ ▶️ John work cut out for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. Steven Poyer Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, And we’re going to record the top four pretty soon. I will just say that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know why heat is on so many lists of top heist

⏹️ ▶️ Marco movies because while I could appreciate parts of it as a decent movie,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is in no way a heist movie. And so it should not be on those lists. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s all I’ll say for now. I will save the rest for top four.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, it’s it’s I can’t I can’t I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I can’t do this with you.

⏹️ ▶️ John they do categories on top four it ends up being all about what is best fit for the category

⏹️ ▶️ John and they set aside like what is actually a good movie so like I’m sure whatever they pick is their best heist movie is not going

⏹️ ▶️ John to be the best movie on

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the list it’s not no it’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco format it’s not that we set aside like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the quality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco movie it’s that it’s that how much it adheres to the quality we picked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a factor like it’s it’s a weight on its score. often it is a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big factor yes well because if we say top heist movies and then two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco movies on the list are really barely or not really heist movies well

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean I guess it comes back to what I said before and how my taste in movies differs so I just sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John I often can’t stomach the idea that you yeah that because it fits with a heist movie and you like

⏹️ ▶️ John it but I think it’s like the worst movie on the list and I don’t care how much of I anyway we’ll see We’ll see what you guys end up

⏹️ ▶️ John picking.