302: Paint This Square

28 Nov 2018

Apple Entrepreneur Camp, 5K vs. 8K displays, iPad vs. Mac performance, why Apple’s prices are increasing, and Italian-American desserts.

Episode Description:

Follow-up:
- Another iSH and youtube-dl update
- Google Photos
- Disk images and filesystems — oh my!
- Tips for transitioning careers for employees and hiring managers
  - Fizz Buzz Test
What happened to 5K displays?
Apple Entrepreneur Camp
- David Smith's tweet
- Jessie Char on Layers
How much does it cost to get a Mac that performs as well as an iPad Pro?
Apple's ever-increasing prices
- Ben Thompson's post
#askatp
- How do we power manage our Macs? (via Angelo Fiorentino)
  - Hear Casey on Angelo's show, Double Density!
- What is our photo management workflow? (via Paul Walker)
  - Casey's now-outdated workflow
  - GeoTag
- How does Marco do power testing? (via Dustin Goldman)
  - Plugable USB-C Voltage/Amperage Meter
  - IOKit
Post show: Thanksgiving Desserts of Siracusa County

Chapters

iSH & youtube-dl
Google Photos workarounds
Hiring coding newcomers
5K displays? 8K?
Apple Entrepreneur Camp
iPad CPU vs. MacBook Pro 🖼️
Traveling with iPad Pro
Sponsor: Jamf Now
Apple price increases
Sponsor: Linode (code atp2018)
#askatp: 24/7 vs. sleeping Macs
#askatp: SLR workflow
#askatp: Measuring power draw
Ending theme
Thanksgiving dessert 🖼️

iSH & youtube-dl

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m leaning towards Paint the Square just because we talked about like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you’re always a sucker for the one that tells you what this show Is about but

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} fine

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it always gives us a hint of something. It’s about Paint the Square Yeah, and I like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I mean possibly true myth is fine but no one’s going to be wondering what it’s about because there’s lots of things that we talk about like Someone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John probably just said something I thought was a myth and but it might be true Ha whatever but Paint the Square like what the hell is that about? I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like the ones where there’s no way you could possibly know what the hell it’s gonna be about Like, you won’t guess. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not a cliche, and it’s not a general statement about whatever. It’s like, they talked about painting?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Is it about painting pixels? Or something in the news about painting?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Something in the news about squares? No, no, just totally random.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ve been talking on and off over the last few episodes about ISH, which is a kind of Linux

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey shell on the iPad. And somehow, we’ve caught the attention of the author, and now I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey basically making verbal feature requests, which is magnificent for me. And as of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey most recent version that was posted to TestFlight a couple of days ago, it now supports my beloved YouTube download,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which is tremendous. It is pretty slow to start the download, but once the download

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey starts, it actually rips pretty well. And it works perfectly fine.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ve been extremely impressed. Unfortunately, the files app integration has

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey had a bit of a bug happen to it, so I do not see any files in the Files app. So I have this wonderful media

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey file sitting within my little Linux shell that I can’t get anywhere. So that’s a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey bit of a bummer, but one step at a time, everyone. Additionally, I should specify that there’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey no FFmpeg at this time, but I believe it is on the to-do list, although probably not immediately.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But it is, I remain incredibly impressed about what ISH does. It is extremely cool, and you should check it out

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey if you have an iPad. Actually, I think it works on iPhone as well, But especially if you have an iPad, it’s good stuff.

Google Photos workarounds

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Moving on, a lot of people have written in with some Google photos workarounds for me. If

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you recall from last episode, I was complaining, vetching about how

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I really hate the Google Drive, whatever it’s called, uploader. And I was happy

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to hear, well, sad, but happy to hear that pretty much anyone who wrote in agreed with me that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the new Google Drive Sync, whatever it’s called, is a piece of hot garbage

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and doesn’t work for almost anyone. And I’m kind of happy to know that I’m sharing my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey misery. A lot of people had recommended something I didn’t even think about as an option,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which I thought was brilliant, but I don’t think will work?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey What was recommended was to use the Synology’s Cloud Sync. So if you don’t have a Synology, the Cloud

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Sync basically lets you connect to Dropbox or Google Drive and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey among many other places and let you sync up a local copy of all these things. So it acts as a Dropbox client.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It can act as a Google Drive client. And there’s many, many other services it can interact with. And what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they were saying was just point the Synology Cloud Sync to your Photos repository

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and tell it to sync with Google Drive. And then you don’t need to use Google’s piece of monkey crap

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey app on your iMac. And that sounds all well and good, but first of all,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you have to coerce Google Photos to use Google Drive in a way that makes the photos

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey available to Google Drive as a whole, Like it always uses the same storage area, if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey will, but, but none of your photos are usually visible in Google drive, unless you check some checkbox somewhere, you have to Google for the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey link. Um, and I did that. And the problem I have is that. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey photos in Google drive are all flattened into one gigantic folder. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey all of them in, on my, you know, Synology are in this, you know, fairly deep folder

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey structure where I have years and then I have months and and then all the photos are in there. And I’m really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey hesitant to try to tell the two to sync, because I’m assuming this analogy is going to try to push all these folders

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey up to Google Drive. And I’m guessing it’s not going to be smart enough to deduplicate, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey maybe I’m wrong. So if you have experience with this, please let me know. Just find me on Twitter or send an email or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey something. But I’ve not actually tried it, tried the solution, even though in principle I really like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the idea of it. Related to that, some people have written in saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that they had an idea, and that is to create a DMG on the Synology

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and then mount that on your Mac. So that means your Mac treats this individual file

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on the Synology as an entire file system or volume onto itself. So Paul

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oswald wrote in, my first instinct when trying to back up some stuff across various file systems

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and whatnot was to create a DMG, but the Synology doesn’t seem to support creating or reading DMG

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey files out of a directly attached disk because he was backing up some directly attached disks. My next step

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was going to be to use a Mac to copy the disk over, but the Synology over to the Synology as a DMG over

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the network, but I wondered if there was a better way to handle just backing up a disk to his Synology.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So John, how do we back up a physical volume onto the Synology in a way that works?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, there’s a couple aspects of this. For people who aren’t Mac users, um, or haven’t dealt

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with disk images before. The idea is kind of like what Casey said, where it’s a,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} it’s not just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a single file, actually most of the good formats that you’d want to use are actually directories full of files

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that you can mount on your Mac and the Mac thinks they are a volume formatted

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with whatever you want them to be formatted with, APFS, HFS+, whatever. So as far as the Mac is concerned

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it doesn’t know that you know this isn’t really a disk attached to your computer, actually it’s a file sitting on a NAS. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that would get around the photos thing. The other aspect

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of that that’s interesting, as mentioned by Paul Oswald, is that because it is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bunch of files on a NAS, but when mounted it looks like a volume of a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ ^John format, if there are weird file naming things, like the rules for Mac file names

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are slightly different than the rules for file names and other file systems, especially in HFS Plus where it does the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Unicode normalization and has all this other stuff and there’s different forbidden characters, like you can’t use colons

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in HFS Plus because that’s actually the path separator under the the covers. Stuff like that can come up when,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for example, if you tried to put a photo, you know, a photos, Apple photos library

⏹️ ▶️ ^John onto a volume that’s not one of Apple’s volume formats, like if you put it onto

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your Synology and it’s the XT4 or BTRFS or something like that, you may find out that it can’t even copy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them over there, not even for backup purposes because some of the file names inside the photo library

⏹️ ▶️ ^John run afoul of the rules of target file system. So disk images let you get around

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that. You say, well, I’m still putting the data on an ext4 volume, on a btrfs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John volume, whatever. You’re still putting the data on a non-Mac volume, but because it’s in a disk image,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you get to pick the volume format and your Mac isn’t any of the wiser. Now, all that said,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the problems are, as Paul pointed out, like, well, your Mac can mount that as a disk image, but as far as anything

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the Synology is concerned, it’s just like a weird directory full of files. Synology you can’t make heads or tails of it. It doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John understand that you’re supposed to mount it and treat it as a file, because all the software to do that is on your Mac. And he was saying, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, you can just have a Mac do that for you. Like that’s basically the answer. Like I don’t think Synology is ever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gonna add support for Mac specific disk image formats. But I still think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it is a semi-viable solution. The problem of course is that you’re going through two layers of abstraction

⏹️ ▶️ ^John here. So you’ve got the actual file system, which is organizing a bunch of things on the desk. And then you’ve got the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John disk image format. even if you pick the quote unquote most efficient one, like a sparse bundle or something where you don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to preallocate all the disk space for it and it writes out these little stripe files that are like, I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like 200 megs each or I don’t know how big they are. Anyway, these evenly sized files that it writes, you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John through multiple levels of fakery where the Mac thing is writing to an HFS volume that goes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John through the disk image driver that writes out the stripe files and those in turn get written as actual files on the BTRFS

⏹️ ▶️ ^John volume and that’s all going over SMB or whatever thing that your Synology

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is mounted as. So I think it could work, but I wouldn’t recommend it. And if something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John goes wrong, if something is weird and corrupted inside your disk image, it’s not easy to recover

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from. And you could like, what I’m saying is I wouldn’t recommend this approach. The only time I’ve used this approach

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is for things like using SuperDuper to clone your drive to the Synology.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Again, unless you have HFS plus formatted volumes on your Synology, you can’t do a direct clone, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can tell SuperDuper to say, see this disk over here? Make a Mac disk image

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of it over there. And then you can put that disk image on any volume that can hold just like plain old normal

⏹️ ▶️ ^John files like no Mac specific stuff. So to answer this question in a long winded way,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m not aware of any solution other than having a Mac read and write those disk image files,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it is something to keep in mind and to keep in your back pocket for situations where you want to do it temporarily,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just to have some space to move stuff around in the tile game that is your storage life, or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you want to do backups of entire computers or volumes or whatever to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a volume format that is not a Mac specific one.

Hiring coding newcomers

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Moving on, we got some feedback from Chad Bailey with regard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to how do you move from one career to another? And this is a little bit long.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ve actually pared it down quite a bit, but it was really, really, really good. So please bear with me. But Chad writes, an increasing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey number of people I hire are coming from non-traditional backgrounds, meaning they went to a code school or otherwise self-taught.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey They often end up being the highest performers on my team because they’re consistently hardworking,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey eager, and adaptive. At first I thought it might be because they’re in their honeymoon period with the tech industry and haven’t been burned by

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey all its challenges yet. But I’m realizing the thing that they all have in common is that they wanted something, a new career, and they were willing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to work hard to get it. You have to overcome the inertia of life to change career paths like they have,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey even more so as you get older. So as someone who’s worked in several different developer jobs

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and is now manager, I’d so much rather work with someone who might not know the specifics of a technology in question,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but has demonstrated an eagerness to learn than I would someone who had a strong institutional background on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey paper, but thought they were God’s gift algorithms. My advice to the listener would be this. It’s important to have a goal

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to work toward and accomplish rather than just randomly learning and half building things. Having a specific thing you want to build is a good

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey substitute. Keep making things until you’ve made something you’re proud enough, proud of enough to show

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey off in an interview. By the time you’ve built a few things, you’ll start developing the taste you need to make that determination

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of what’s quote unquote good enough. In the interviews, lean hard on how hard you’ve worked to learn

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey what you’ve learned so far and your eagerness to get better. It’ll ingratiate you to the interviewer so much more

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey than someone who leans back in their chair and rolls their eyes when the interviewer mentions an older queuing technology in one part of their

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey app.” I thought that was really, really great and a really good summary of what we were, I think all three of us, trying to say last episode.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So in summary of that summary, I would say, give it a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey shot. If you want to change careers, you can’t hurt to try and definitely give it a shot.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But I appreciate it, Chad. I thought that That was great

⏹️ ▶️ ^John feedback. I think that advice is mostly for people who are hiring, not for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the people who are interviewing so much. Although I think all that is true, there is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John still the other kind of interviewer who’s like, well, you don’t have all the check boxes, or you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have experience, or I’m kind of wary of self-taught people. That attitude definitely is out there. The truth

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is, I think, what you just read, where showing that you’re brave

⏹️ ▶️ ^John enough to make a career and that you’re able to do it successfully, showing you that you’ve put

⏹️ ▶️ ^John effort into it, whatever, you’re not just kind of sleepwalking through your career, is a great indicator that you might be a good hire,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? Like everything that Chad said is true. But there are definitely

⏹️ ▶️ ^John jobs out there, hiring managers out there, like just especially people who don’t know much about technology,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but are in charge of hiring people to work on technology, they’re just like, just show me the keywords in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John resume, show me the degree, and like, because they don’t know anything about technology, They don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know how else to hire. Those jobs exist. You don’t want those jobs, by the way. Like, you don’t want the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John job where the person hiring you doesn’t know anything about technology. But be aware of those others. So I would say

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Chad’s advice goes out to anyone who is thinking about hiring people. If you are a technical person and you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know about technology and you’re in charge of or contribute to the hiring of people,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John keep this in mind. Because it’s easy to fall back into the trap of like, well, there’s these two people. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not sure this person doesn’t have a degree. and they say they’re self-taught, but I’m a little bit wary. I feel more comfortable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John picking the person from MIT. That’s not the best instinct, especially if the other person

⏹️ ▶️ ^John used to be an accountant or something and has changed careers. It does show

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wherewithal and motivation and eagerness that may not exist with the MIT person who just expects to glide

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right into the job.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I would also say, too, we got a couple of people who, in response to our bit about this last week,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who said, well, you know, if you’re lucky, you have time to make a GitHub

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco profile or to make your own code on the side to show them. But what if you don’t have time? What if you’re busy working

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a job and you can’t, and like, you know, your previous jobs don’t let you share your code or whatever else. Like there’s a lot of,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, cause we mentioned like you should, if you can show something you’ve done, either a personal project or a GitHub

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco contributions or something like that, like you know, that’s, that’s powerful. But I, I did want to mention here that I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I said enough last week that if If you even have a GitHub

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco profile with anything in it, you’re gonna be one of 1% of the applicants

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who have that. If you can program at all,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re gonna be already in the top quarter of applicants.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s easy to hear about all the hot shots and all the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco high-end jobs from big companies you know, And to think, if you’re new to the field, or if

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re trying to get into programming, it’s easy to think that you’re totally outclassed. That

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco everyone’s way better than you, and you are not at all qualified, and you don’t have any chance or whatever. But in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco addition to just wanting it, if you have any aptitude at all for programming,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if you can do it at all, and they give you a coding test in the interview, and if

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you can actually complete the coding test, and even if it’s simple things, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are gonna be already in the top small percentage of people if you can even complete

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a coding test in the interview. And if you’ve done anything on the side that you can show them,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we’ll put you way ahead of everybody else. You may not realize, because again,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you see the high profile, the top tier, you hear about all these great developers, these great companies,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but most applicants for most programming jobs, they just can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do it. They just can’t even program at all, and they don’t care, and they can’t learn.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So if you can do any or all of those things, like you will be ahead of them by a lot

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and you stand a better chance than you think of getting those jobs.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, then the more desirable jobs will, you know, want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John test you more, you know, more vigorously and you will have to not just be able to sort of do well, but there’s,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to Marco’s point, there’s a reason the FizzBuzz test is a thing that people know about in the programming

⏹️ ▶️ ^John world. I’ll put a link in the show notes, but FizzBuzz is like a programming quiz.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like here, solve this problem by writing a program to solve it. And the problem, I think it’s based on a kid’s game, but the problem

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is basically like, I forget, but it’s like, if a number is divisible by five, print Fizz. If a number

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is divisible by 15, print Buzz. And if it’s divisible by both five and 15, print FizzBuzz.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like it sounds like the world’s easiest programming problem. It’s, you know, you can see the code in your head if

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’re a programmer, right? Why would you ever, why is this a thing? Why would you ever give someone this test? It’s practically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like asking them to write Hello World. It’s like, well, what, you’re going to give me a problem? Or are you just going to, whatever. FizzBuzz

⏹️ ▶️ ^John seems to have no utility in the interview process. And yet, FizzBuzz is described

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in this page that we’ll put in the show, probably, as a way to filter out the 99.5% of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John programming job candidates who can’t seem to program their way out of a white paper bag. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} it actually is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John useful tool. You would think that it’s not a useful tool at all. It’s like, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John asking you to do literally the minimum necessary. in any language you want, just to show that you can program like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John almost anything. It’s harder than Hello World, but not much harder than Hello World. And yet it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ends up making interviewers lives easier because you just quickly eliminate the people who just can’t do it at all.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And it’s kind of, I don’t know, I’m trying, can’t think of an analogy for another job, but it’s like if you are

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hiring somebody to be a painter and you asked the, you brought in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a one square foot piece of wood and said, please paint this piece of wood. and like 99% of them couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do it. You’re like, well, I eliminated all the painters who can’t paint at all, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like you’re not even judging them how well they paint, how elegant the solution is, it’s like paint this square. And then if someone gets a bucket

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of paint and pours it on their head, you’re like, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} well, you have to leave. You didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get any paint on the square and the job of painting really does involve putting the paint where we want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you to. Like that’s fizz buzz. And it is, you know, it’s not an obscure thing in the world of primary

⏹️ ▶️ ^John interviews. It’s kind of a sad statement, but it’s true. But like I said, if you do want to get a job but like Google or something,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re gonna ask you to do a hell of a lot more than Fizzbuzz. But not every job is Google. And maybe, you know, they’re, even though Google

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gives you free food and does your laundry and whatever the hell they do, you can find a really good borrowing job at,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, much smaller, less high profile places.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, so thanks again to Chad. I thought that was really good feedback.

5K displays? 8K?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Finally, John, what happened to 5K displays? And this is relevant because my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey dad actually just today received a brand new 13-inch MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And quick aside, he actually, his initial response to the Touch Bar was positive. He seemed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey really into it based on 15 minutes of use, but I was somewhat surprised by that. But nevertheless,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey he has also bought himself the LG 5K display. I haven’t told him

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey how hit or miss those things

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} are. I’m so sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I’m trying not to open that can of worms. But nevertheless, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey know, a year or two ago, when I was looking into this for work, I was looking into potentially getting a 5K display. I ended

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey up getting a 4K display or two 4K displays, actually, and they worked really well. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at the time, there were at least a handful of options for 5K displays. Most notably, Dell made one that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey seemed to be reasonably well received. But it seems, John, that they’re all gone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey now. Tell me about this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I thought of this because of how upset I was when Apple said they were going to stop making displays. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of course now Apple said they are going to make displays. So we’re in the good times now. But in the bad old times, I was like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple should make a display because then I listed all these reasons why I like Apple displays. But even then, even in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my depths of despair, I didn’t think, OK, well, if Apple stops making displays,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I would have to buy like, you know, a Dell display or some LG display that we just talked about. Or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, I don’t know. an Asus display or who knows, an NEC display. Like I’d

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have to buy a non-Apple 5K display. Since I haven’t been paying attention to this market at all, Adam Angston

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Tidbits writes that if you want to buy a 5K display, it’s not like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can go to all those vendors that I just listed and just, you know, or get like some weird bargain basement one from Korea

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with a no name brand. Like you don’t have a lot of choices. In fact, if you want to buy one,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like your only choice is the LG UltraFine 5K display. if you want to buy it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John today and you would have to order online, you can’t even see it displayed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in any place unless maybe you go to the Apple store and see it. There are a bunch of other ones that aren’t for sale but are listed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from these weird brands or whatever, but people in general are not making 5K displays.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not a popular resolution. Obviously, panels are made by whoever Apple uses for their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iMac, so the panels are out there, but it’s kind of depressing that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no one else in the market seems interested in making displays like this. It makes some sense because like all the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gaming monitors are gonna be 4k because no game consoles put out 5k

⏹️ ▶️ ^John PC gamers Maybe they could take advantage of but honestly if they get a 4k display

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and they could drive that at a high frame rate They I think they’d prefer that over a 5k display and it sacrifices,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know frame rate for the sake of some extra pixels that game might not even

⏹️ ▶️ ^John use effectively and Of course multiple monitors is more common now than it used to be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So maybe one big honking display is not, you know, a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing that is desired by the market. But I was surprised to learn that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how many years after the 5K iMac came out, you can’t just go to any monitor

⏹️ ▶️ ^John vendor and get a 5K display. You’re stuck with the LG one or even sketchier things.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And if you don’t want that, you’re going to wait with the rest of us for the summer when and presumably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple will introduce, it’s presumably 5K display for its presumed Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So a few things about that, but first of all, are you sure, like, because Dell had theirs, but it seemed like it was maybe being

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco discontinued, the UP2715K,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is that a thing that still exists, or is that gone?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, we’ll link to the article, like there’s a whole article about this, and it’s tidbits, and it’s Adam Manx, so I’m pretty sure he was thorough, like in looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at what you can, he lists a bunch of things that look promising, but aren’t actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John available, or there’s one that says, on Amazon, that ships directly from Japan,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but has no ratings or reviews.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} It’s amazing. Is it the Planar one,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the Planar?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} The Planar iX2790 that has zero

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco reviews. It claims to be this thing, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the reason I know about this is that when I was trying to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco figure out how to test the iPad Pro’s 5K support, the iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can’t use the LG 5K, because the LG 5K requires a Thunderbolt signal, not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just USB-C DisplayPort. So the LG 5K,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and this alone is kind of a hilarious mess, the iPad Pro supports 5K displays

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over the USB-C connector. The LG 5K monitor that’s sold in Apple stores and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco compatible with almost every Mac has a USB-C looking plug on the end of its cable,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but it does not work with the iPad Pro, or the 12-inch MacBook, by the way.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so, as far as I know, and so what you need to get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 5K support for the new iPad Pro is you need a 5K monitor that accepts

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that signal over a USB-C plug, but using the DisplayPort protocol.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And as far as I could find, zero monitors on the market that can do this exist, except

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe this planar iX2790. But I was unwilling to actually try

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to buy one for $1,000 and try to figure out if it actually worked or not. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John look at the data in this article. This is according to the article. It says, the Wikipedia page for 5K resolution lists a small number of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John 5K displays, including displays from Dell, Philips, and HP, but as far as I can tell, none are currently for sale,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John apart from a handful of ultra-wide monitors with unusual aspect ratios like 64, 27, and 32 by 9. Right, and there was- So it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John technically 5K.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think earlier, I think yesterday, there was a review on the Verge of, there is an LG monitor that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 5K across, but only like the 4K vertical resolution. So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just like ultra, and it’s like 34 inches, so it’s like really big and wide. So like it would not be suitable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for a Mac because that’s neither, like again, obligatory link to the Bajango article on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like what makes good Retina resolutions at good screen sizes. It’s like, it’s too

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco big of a size to run it at Retina size, but it’s too small of a size

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to run it at 1X. So it’s a very strange intermediary size. But I was thinking too, so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco assuming that 5K monitors basically barely exist, that does seem to be the status quo here.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And assuming that PC monitor buyers seem totally uninterested in them, which does seem to be the case

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco after all these years of them existing on the Mac side in the form of the iMac, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do wonder, do we think there is a chance? Because one of the responses that we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco got when we talked about this last year, when I talked about this somewhere on Twitter, I forget how it came up, one of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco responses was that all the high-end monitor makers and video card

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco makers and everything are skipping 5K and going straight to 8K. And I have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco not heard anything more about this. There is an 8K Dell monitor

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that is for sale for only $4,000. And it does, you know, the reviews of it say like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yep, it is indeed a 5K monitor, although it’s too- 8K. Sorry, 8K,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but it’s too small. See, if you go back to that Bajango chart of what makes for a good,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, what makes for, you know, correct sizing on a Mac of either, you know, whether you’re gonna run the monitor

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at 1x or 2x, you know, you want things on screen to fall within a certain like physical size

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco range that’s kind of like a traditional size range so that things on screen don’t look too big or too small.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You, they just look either sharp or not sharp, right? So whether you’re running in retina or non-retina.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco The correct size for an 8K monitor to be in that range is about 37 inches.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So I’m wondering, A, you know, why Dell didn’t go bigger with theirs because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s probably cheaper to go bigger. So why they only went for like 32 or 34, whatever it is, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And B, do we think Apple might be doing this? Do we think that the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Pro display that’s rumored for, you know, or that’s stated to be released sometime in 2019,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do we think that will be 8K and do we think it’ll be 37 inch range?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We talked about that back when we were talking about our Mac Pro dreams and there were a bunch of rumors about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it being 8K. I mean, the obvious application of 8K is so you can watch 8K video. at native resolution.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Which doesn’t really exist. I mean, it does. Like 8K video exists, cameras exist, that you can, you know, like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not common, but it is a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, but you can’t like go and buy an 8K movie.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, no, I’m just saying like for video, like we’ll take, we’ll shoot, and very often a video is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John shot at a much higher resolution that it’s gonna be mastered at or whatever, right? So you can shoot at 8K, and then you could crop to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a 4K, you know, sub-rectangle. Anyway, shooting at 8K is a thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it would be weird if you could shoot in 8K, but you could never actually view it in 8K, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So there has to be something out there like this Dell ridiculous 8K monitor. And the fact that it’s not the right size

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for basically using a UI might not be that bad if the only thing you’re using it for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is essentially a display monitor to show you your rendered video outputs. You can look at it and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John see how everything is coming together or whatever. And you’re still doing your editing on your 4K

⏹️ ▶️ ^John monitor with the downsampled stuff. And that’s why I think, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the Mac Pro should be able to drive an 8K display if there’s a video card that can do it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but I don’t think it’s time for Apple to introduce an 8K display, just for the reasons you said, that if it’s appropriately sized, it would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be huge. And who actually needs that? It’s either people doing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John 8K video, in which case maybe that size actually isn’t that good because they might want something that’s a more reasonable size,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even if it’s like quote unquote too small for a UI. They’re not gonna put their UI on it anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And 5K has been Apple’s standard. Like I think you have to bend your neck

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} more.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Does it like, if you sat in front of a 37 inch thing, like just to look from one side of the monitor to the other, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I guess people with dual monitors do that all the time. It just seems like it might be over the limit of single

⏹️ ▶️ ^John monitor size. At that point, you might wanna have two monitors that you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John arrange. So I don’t rule it out, because you know, with Apple, you don’t wanna rule anything out. But I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mean, I hope Apple doesn’t skip 5K, because I feel like 5K is a really good sweet spot. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a beautiful looking, really big monitor where everything is, you know, if you make it the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John physical size as the iMac display, that’s good. That is a good, really good single

⏹️ ▶️ ^John monitor that’s a nice compromise between having two monitors in one and it’s very sharp and crisp and they have the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John panels and yada yada, like don’t overthink it Apple, just make a 5K display. If they wanna offer an 8K as well, that would be awesome,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but every discussion of Apple’s upcoming display has been singular,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not plural. So I’m not willing to believe they’re going to come out with two. But if they come up with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one monitor and it’s a K, I’m actually going to disappoint it because it’s going to be tons of money.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And if it’s not 37 inch, the UI will be the wrong size. If it is 37 inch, I don’t know if I can fit it in my house.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t know. I think it might be like, you know, we say this now, but like if you would have asked me in, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, 2001, whether I thought that I would be using a 27 inch monitor,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I would have said that’s ridiculous. The 17 inch monitor I’m looking at now is already almost too big.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right? Like it, it seemed really big at the time. And yes, you know, eventually you do hit like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco field of view, ergonomic issues, or like, you know, distance to the monitor, you know, it’s, you do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hit issues like that eventually, but you know, Apple used to sell a 30 inch monitor and they, they took that same resolution

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and crammed it down to 27. And it made everything a little bit smaller, but like the 30 was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco three more inches diagonal and it was big, but it was fine. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I know a lot of people who ran either multiple, well, not multiple 30s. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco mean, I know Al Gore did, but no one else really. But like, I know people who had,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who would run a 30 inch and then next to it, a second monitor that was smaller, maybe a 24 or something like.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So like, that was actually fairly common that I saw like, you know, in programming jobs and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco In fact, David Karp used that exact setup right across the, you know, office from me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so if you think about like, if somebody can use a 30 inch with a 24

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco inch next to it and make use of that space, then having a 27 inch just add

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like 50% roughly to its area or whatever it would be, that’s actually not that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco crazy. Like it’s in a similar vein

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as people who would run a 30 inch with anything else. Or people who today have an iMac, a 27 inch iMac, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco might run a second monitor next to it. Like you’re talking about roughly the same like width or even actually less width

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco than that if you did an 8K at 37 inches. So it actually might, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it seems crazy now, but I bet like that statement won’t age well. Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I bet if you, if these things actually do exist at some point and we can buy wonderful 37 inch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 8K displays and that’s what’s on all of our desks in 10 years, that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco might be totally fine. Like I don’t think the, I think the physics of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the field of view and how far you’d have to be from it and everything, I do think that seems like it’s really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco pushing the boundaries and might be over the line, but I can’t say for sure that it is.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not the 8K that’s over, I feel like it’s the 37 inches that’s a little bit over. Because I don’t think we’ve ever, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John biggest we’ve had is maybe 34 inch, but they have 34 inch CRTs, maybe I’m misremembering. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I feel like the 37 inches, especially the aspect ratio of the current 5K

⏹️ ▶️ ^John display. It’s a little bit big out of your field of view. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, you really need to start switching to two monitors. Unless you go really wide, obviously. You could have a single monitor that is just one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of those wraparound things or whatever. By

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the way, those exist and people love them. Like, they have those ultra-wide, you know, mostly it’s PC people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who buy them because the Mac isn’t that great at those resolutions. But like, those exist already.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And they’re actually quite plentiful these days. They’re not that expensive, and the people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who buy them usually really love them. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} we already

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have monitors that are in this width class. But that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just multiple monitors without gaps between them. Regardless of how it’s actually implemented behind the scenes, that’s like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you are signing up to turn your head, right? But if we also told you you have to move your head up and down, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John starts to become a little bit silly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t know. Left and right, okay, up and down, no,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} that’s a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco deal

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} breaker.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, 8K resolution is definitely doable. If they did a 30 inch with a 6K resolution,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think that would be a better sweet spot for where we are. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John once you start going way bigger than your field of view, I start thinking,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can we just go to glasses? At that point, what are we even doing? Once

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it starts being floor to ceiling, wall to wall, and you have to look under your desk to get to the dock,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there is an actual physical absurdity limit to the field of view that you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fill with pixels that you want to use your screen. You do want it to be more or less in front of you, not around

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you and above you and behind you. Unless you’re like doing some, you know, again, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John basically reinventing VR with like a giant sphere that encompasses you as Grateful Flight Simulators

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and racing games may be not so great for using Excel.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey She see one of the things on the Cards Against Humanity Black Friday sale was basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the chair out of Grandma’s Boy. I kinda really wanted it. You keep referencing that movie.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Have you not seen it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, I want to see it about you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, everyone can tweet at Syracuse. Everyone can tweet at Syracuse and tell him

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey how good Grandma’s boy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is. That thing, that was just like, the monitor they showed, which by the way, I’m sure didn’t come with the chair. The monitor

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they showed was actually a tame version of one of those very wide, you know, curved displays.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It didn’t even look that wide.

Apple Entrepreneur Camp

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Over the last, I think, 24 hours, Apple has formally announced the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Apple Entrepreneur Camp. Did we already know this was coming?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I had this as the first

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’d heard of it. Okay, that’s what I thought too, but then I convinced myself that I’d heard of it and then forgotten.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey This is what happens when you have a terrible memory. Anyway, the Apple Entrepreneur Camp is once a quarter. It’s in Cupertino.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You can apply for it and your applications are kept on file for a year. And they are

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for organizations that are founded and led by women. So in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey order to get into the entrepreneur camp, up to three members of your company may attend, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at least one must be a woman developer, one must be the woman co-founder, founder,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or CEO, and the third member of your team can be any gender. And Apple clarifies in a little asterisk,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they say the following, quote, Apple believes that gender expression is a fundamental right. we welcome all women to apply to this program,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey quote. Which I thought was really cool. It’s continuing on for this camp.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey The participants will meet with Apple executives, although they didn’t specify who, and leaders on a variety

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of topics. And then additionally, and this is where I start to have my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey eyes bulge out of my head, the woman founder, co-founder or CEO, and the woman developer

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey will receive tickets to Apple’s Worldwide Developer Conference directly following lab attendance to stay connected with peers, meet

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey other women in technology and attend a special Apple Entrepreneur Camp alumni event at the conference.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey How freaking cool is this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John One thing I noted, who just noted on Twitter? Was it Chris Espinoza? Or maybe it was someone else who works at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The language that you read that you quoted from Apple about Apple believes in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the gender expression as a fundamental right, blah, blah, blah, that is a nice change

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from the boilerplate you see in a lot of other places. So what they’re getting at for people Oh, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John code and the lingo or whatever. What they’re trying to say is, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John inclusive of transgender women, right? And the way that’s often expressed in these type of requirements,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by companies that are trying to say, like, we’re not gonna discriminate, like, you know, everyone welcome. What they say is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John women or people who identify as women. I see that language all over the place. I don’t know how

⏹️ ▶️ ^John transgender people feel about that, but to me, it always seemed like it was still like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John binning and putting in a category. like a women. And then as a second category, people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who identify as women saying, okay, there are actual women, and there are people who really identify as women.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And that’s not what they mean with that language. They’re trying to say the exact opposite. They’re trying to say all are welcome, right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But the language doesn’t read that way. And it’s I didn’t, I never occurred to me what a better way to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John say that was. But every time I read it, I felt like it’s like you’re trying to be inclusive, but you’re kind of like singling

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people out. And so this language, which I have never seen before, you know, maybe I don’t look at enough of these things was,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uh, you know, they, they have the apple believes, blah, blah, gender expression, fundamental, blah, blah, right? We welcome

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all women to apply to this program. That’s the correct language because it doesn’t put people into two

⏹️ ▶️ ^John separate bins. All women, transgender women are women. All women are welcome. Uh, and so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whoever came up with that copy, whether they copied or not, I applaud them because I think it is a, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a great innovation in, in corporate boilerplate for trying to say that we’re not going to discriminate. Yeah, definitely.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I just thought this whole camp seems really cool and I am

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey very curious to hear what it’s like. And they’ve announced the dates. Let me

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey stall for time while I try to figure out when they are. But there are four of them they’ve announced. The first one is January 28th

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey through February 8th of this upcoming year and then April Fool’s Day through the 12th and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey July and October of next year as well. So maybe mid-February we can start

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to hear about how this goes. And I am super-duper curious. I would really love to hear more about this because it seems

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey really cool and a really nice way to try to get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at least one underrepresented group a little more exposure. And I think that’s super awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And like, again, if you’re hearing about this, you’re like, wait,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are they doing? Why is there, why would they do this thing just for women? Is it some sort of holiday that I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t know about or whatever? We’ve asked

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a lot in the past about what a company can do about the fact that most of the people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who are working there in technology jobs are like white males, right? What can you do about it? Well, you know, we,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, they just don’t apply to our jobs. Or like, are our hiring processes and biases

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a pipeline problem or whatever? There’s all sorts of things you can come up with. And so like level one is like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are you doing anything as an organization that discourages anybody except for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people who look like they currently work there from applying? Is the language in your, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your job description sort of excluding people, does your culture exclude people? Like there’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a whole bunch of stuff you can do is like step zero of like, are we as an institution doing anything that is essentially

⏹️ ▶️ ^John keeping people away? Like, we don’t know, maybe we don’t even know we’re doing it, right? Maybe every single picture on our homepage

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is a white guy smiling, right? Like there are many things that you can do accidentally that’s gonna make someone go to your page and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John go, I guess this isn’t a place for me because I don’t see anybody like me who works there, right? So that’s step zero. But say

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’ve done all that or you’re working on that and you’d be like, okay, we’re not doing that. Like we’re really careful with the language of our job

⏹️ ▶️ ^John descriptions. We try to show all people that are like, we’re not there yet. We know we’re still like 90% white guys

⏹️ ▶️ ^John programming, right? But we wanna get there. So we wanna make sure we’re not scaring people away. What’s our

⏹️ ▶️ ^John next step? What do we do next? It’s like, can we get more people to apply? Can we work on our hiring process?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What they’re doing here is another next step. It’s an active measure, essentially, to saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people, no matter how good we are at being welcoming and making an unbiased hiring process and doing all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that stuff. We can’t just sit there and say, we’re doing everything right. And so this problem will solve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John itself. Instead, they’re going to go out there and get these people like, which is smart.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you’re a company smart from a financial and performance perspective, because there is untapped talent

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out there that you can go get that other people aren’t going to get, they’re either going to actively

⏹️ ▶️ ^John scare away or they’re not going to make an effort to go get them. So this is, this is an untapped resource. This is a competitive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John advantage to go find these people. So Apple, Apple wants these people, they want them to be developers on a platform,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John maybe they want them to work for them, like, they want these people, they’re going to go and get them, they’re gonna say,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we will make this thing just for you people, right, not not for the people who we already are getting,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right for the people who are the untapped resource, and we’re going to actively spend money and essentially recruit

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you recruit you to our platform to our to our market or whatever, hopefully give you a good impression

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of Apple. And I think that is incredibly smart. And the obvious next step. Take that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to say that Apple has solved all the other problems in terms of hiring bias and corporate culture and all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that stuff. Like I’m sure they’re still working on those, but they can’t be your only solution. Like if you just sit back there and say

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we are completely unbiased and awesome and we’ll wait for the women and minorities to come rolling in. Don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wait, go out and get them. Like it’s the smartest thing ever. I think Jesse Char had a good

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing about that. One of the people who runs layers, the layers conference that runs a concurrent with W. W. C. Had a good

⏹️ ▶️ ^John YouTube video explaining explaining all the secrets behind layers, which I don’t think she should have done because they’re awesome secrets. But anyway, now

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the world knows the secrets. And what does she do to get cool people at her conference? She goes out and gets them. She gives them tickets, says,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’re a cool person. I don’t see lots of people like you at conferences. Here, have a free ticket. Come to my, and it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John makes the conference better for everybody else who’s there. And it makes them like the conference and maybe they’ll come by next year.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like, it’s just smart business, right? So if you’re wondering, why is Apple doing this thing with women?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s just smart business. And it’s the obvious next step to take in trying to not be a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John homogenous company filled with all the people who have been there for decades.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Do you think this is largely about hiring for Apple or do you think it’s just to get these women onto the platform?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I mean, I don’t know if they’re trying to hire them to work at Apple, but like, recruiting them as developers on the platform,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, all that helps Apple. Come develop on our platform, not on other people’s platforms. Come work

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for us, not for other people. Like, again, it’s an untapped resource of talent. And, you know, companies

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that, you can, plenty of studies, companies that are more diverse do better. They make more money.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They have more innovative products. Like, this is what you want. It’s and other people aren’t going out to get it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you go get it. It’s you know, it’s a no-brainer

iPad CPU vs. MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey How much does it cost for an Apple laptop that has a faster CPU

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey than an iPad Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The super old topic Since we were talking about the iPad Pro, but when we were

⏹️ ▶️ ^John talking about the iPad Pro and its performance a lot of stuff I Did a bunch of graphs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I know this is a podcast and we can’t like explain the graphs to you that well So maybe you will

⏹️ ▶️ ^John put a link into the Google Sheet that that is like publicly accessible that you can look at the graphs or yourself

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But I was trying to answer this question, like, okay, we see the iPad Pro and we were getting some Geekbench numbers for whatever and we know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how much the iPad Pro costs. If you wanted to get the same performance of, you know, insert,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John compute intensive job, how much would you have to pay for some other Mac?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I was picking laptops, but I suppose you could pick a Mac Mini or whatever. I threw a bunch of stuff in there and I tried to graph it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So a couple caveats before we go into these graphs. They’re Geekbench numbers, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Geekbench, like all benchmarks, it’s not, it’s representative of what it’s representative of. It’s a bunch of tasks

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that are mostly real-world tasks, they’re not completely synthetic benchmarks, but it’s a weird mix of them,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and maybe you do one and not the other, and like yada yada, like it doesn’t, it’s not the be-all, end-all, but it’s a number that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we have that we can compare roughly what’s going on. The other thing about Geekbench is you run it, and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your computer submits the numbers that it ran or whatever, so the numbers vary for the same computer, and you could lie

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and report your computer is the wrong thing. So these aren’t set in stone or whatever. But it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John trying to give us a ballpark. The reason this came up, by the way, is Steve Trout and Smith tweeted a while ago

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that if you look at, one of the things that Geekbench does is an LLVM compiler component, basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the back end of Apple’s compilers. The iPad Pro compiles software

⏹️ ▶️ ^John faster than the iMac Pro. Which is, it’s not by

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a little bit. The scores are 10,000 versus 8,900. Oh, right. So I mean, it’s, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Anyway, it depends on what you want. So graphing these things. And the reason

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you graph things is like, you can look at a table of numbers. You can compare numbers. And you can say, well, how much bigger is 10,476 than 8,941?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You can kind of get a feel for eyeballing the numbers. But I certainly, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think most people do better when they see graphics. You can see curves. You can see trends.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You can see how things change. So the first graph we’re going to look at is the Geekbench scores

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for single core and multi-core for a whole bunch of computers, like the MacBook Air, the old MacBook Air,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the old MacBook, the 2018 MacBook Air, and then all of the MacBook Pro, the Escape

⏹️ ▶️ ^John model, and the 13-inch, and then all the 2018 MacBook Pro, and then the iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So it’s got basically Apple’s entire laptop line, a little bit of the past and all of the present,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John plus the iPad Pro. And if you look at the single core

⏹️ ▶️ ^John line, because it’s a graph that includes both single core and multi-core, the single core line, sorted from sort of lowest

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to highest, is almost a flat line. It’s, you know, at the very

⏹️ ▶️ ^John low end is the 2017 MacBook Air, with whatever score it has. And then,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, it’s not entirely horizontal, but it goes up a little tiny bit. On the right side of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John graph, you know, maybe this is like a one degree slope line, right? It’s not, it doesn’t go up that much. So if you’re,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yes, the single core score for the 2.9 gigahertz 2018 i9 15 inch MacBook Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it is higher than that. It’s like, what is it? I don’t know, look at the actual

⏹️ ▶️ ^John numbers. It is like 5,800 versus 3,300. That’s not as big a difference as you think it is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when you see them graphed, especially when you see all the points in between. But the good thing about it is that the slope,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, there is a nice progression. Each step up machine does a little bit better than the one before

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it in single core. When you look at the multi-core line, it kind of follows the same slope until you get halfway

⏹️ ▶️ ^John through the graph. And once you go from the 2018 MacBook Air, and you start

⏹️ ▶️ ^John getting out of the MacBook and MacBook Airs and into the MacBook Pros, suddenly the multi-core line

⏹️ ▶️ ^John takes a big jump up. And so there’s basically the haves and the have-nots in multi-core. It’s like, how many

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cores do you have? If you

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have a lot of cores, your multi-core score is like double your single-core score and you’re just hanging over

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there. If you have lots of cores, suddenly your multi-core score is like five times as high is your single core.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So if you look at this graph, it’s got the multi-core line that goes and then just makes a big jump and then the single core line’s like that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then, I mean, because the text is really, really small when you look at this in a Google Sheet, you’re like, where is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the iPad in this graph? The iPad, perhaps surprisingly,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John perhaps not, if you’ve heard us rave about it for forever, is in the right-hand side of the graph with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the MacBook Pros, right in the middle of the right-hand side of the graph of the MacBook Pros. The only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John two MacBook Pros that have better single and multi-core scores

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are the 2018 2.6 gigahertz 15 inch MacBook Pro and the 2.9 gigahertz i9 15 inch MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The single core scores are close and the multi-core scores

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are slightly less close. But that’s where the iPad Pro is. The iPad Pro is not with the fanless

⏹️ ▶️ ^John MacBook on the left

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} hand side.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not with any of the MacBooks. It’s not even with the Escape. It is in a totally different

⏹️ ▶️ ^John category. So if you had to categorize, hey, what’s the iPad Pro like? It’s faster than Apple’s low-end laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s faster than all of Apple’s laptops, except for the two fastest. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John categorically, it’s only got, what is it, six cores or something? Categorically, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with the Pro model. So seeing that graphically illustrated, seeing the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Pro hiding there amongst the MacBook Pros is kind of startling. Again, remember, this is a machine that’s 5.9

⏹️ ▶️ ^John millimeters thick and has no fan.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} It runs on a battery.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, and the funny thing is, you not only have to go to the 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco MacBook Pro, but not even the base processor of the 15-inch can do it. You need

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to upgrade the processor from the base model to a more expensive one in order to beat the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Pro that, yeah, as you said, costs a lot less, even when fully specced

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco up, and is a 15-watt machine.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So there’s one other graph that I think is interesting in the Google Sheet, and that’s the price graph. And it’s sorted

⏹️ ▶️ ^John left to right more or less the same as the performance graph, right? It’s basically from lower

⏹️ ▶️ ^John performance to higher performance. But this graph doesn’t go in a nice sort of like gradual

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slope. It goes sort of a steep stair step up and then it drops back down.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then another steep couple steps and then it drops back down. And then another steep couple steps and then it drops back down. So it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you pick a model and you start getting the better and better performance,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like say you pick the 2017 MacBook, right? The 12 inch, the MacBook One.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you buy a low-end one of those, you know, it’s like the second dot on the graph. Like it’s way on the left-hand side, it’s a low

⏹️ ▶️ ^John performance. But the next three dots on the graph, performance-wise, they just barely slope up. But price-wise,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they go up, up, up, up, up, and they go really, really high. So if you want the top-end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John MacBook One, the top end 12 inch MacBook, it’s a pretty high bar. Once you go to the next

⏹️ ▶️ ^John model, again, this is the next highest performance model. It’s faster than the model before it. The price goes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John way down. The base model 2018 MacBook Air, which has better performance

⏹️ ▶️ ^John than all the ones I just listed over there, suddenly the price drops by hundreds of dollars. But then within the MacBook Air

⏹️ ▶️ ^John range, well, you don’t have any CPU choices there, but like in MacBook Escape, it goes up, up, and then another

⏹️ ▶️ ^John big drop. And the next big drop is the iPad Pro, which is like the lowest bar in the entire chart,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because it gets to our point that it’s a very inexpensive thing. Then you go to the MacBook Pros and you go

⏹️ ▶️ ^John into the Stratosphere and they’re huge and they get bigger and bigger. I threw in the Mac Minis at the end of this graph too to show

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where they end up. They’re actually pretty fast and they’re priced pretty cheaply, but of course they don’t come with a keyboard, a mouse or a screen.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So, you know, anyway, the price graph I just hope is interesting to remind you that if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John decide which model you want based on this performance chart, but then when you go to spec it out, You’re like, well, I want the good

⏹️ ▶️ ^John CPU. Well, I want the big SSD. It’s kind of like buying a car where the options are what kill

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you. Like, if you can get away with the base model or the base config, maybe it’s a good deal. But if you find the car

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you think you want, but then start adding the carbon ceramic brakes and the luxury

⏹️ ▶️ ^John package and all that other stuff, you end up spending so much money that you could have bought

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the E-Class instead of the C-Class in Mercedes-Benz. Sorry for the car analogies. It happens.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So be aware that, and I find myself doing this too, like you pick the model you want based on what you think the price performance

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is, like yeah, this is a great deal for price performance, and then you just add options to make it such a worse deal. And this is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John partially Apple’s fault because they charge so much money for the options, like oh, you want the big SSD? Now it costs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as much as a MacBook Pro. And you don’t notice because you’ve already picked the model, like you’ve moved on to the configuring phase, and you’re just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bargaining with yourself. Well, I want it to last a long time, 32 gigs of RAM will be nice. You don’t realize, is that your bargaining

⏹️ ▶️ ^John voice? Yeah, you’ve entered a different price category. So keep

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that in mind too. So anyway, if you’re interested in spreadsheets and graphs and vague fuzzy geek bench

⏹️ ▶️ ^John numbers, we will put the links in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, this is why like I, I really am very excited and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco excited for and bullish about a possible arm Mac transition.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Because yeah, I know it wouldn’t be perfect. I know there’d would be stuff I’d complain about. But like, if they can,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like, the performance is already there. Like, in a much smaller and lower powered

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco chip, the performance is already there to make really compelling Macs

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco using Apple’s ARM chips, like, already. And that’s Apple’s, you know, five or 10 watt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ARM chips. If they actually wanted to make, like, a 40 watt, 15 inch configuration,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that could be way faster even than this. And so like, it’s like people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do assume, you know, whenever people try to predict like, Oh, what, you know, what would happen in an interim transition, they do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco assume it would, it would be like a low end model. And I’ve said before, like, I think they would probably start

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at the low end to do the transition. You know, they probably start with a MacBook one, but, you know, or, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a similar product, but I don’t think that they would do that because they don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the performance headroom. Like I think they would do it for other, you know, market reasons and practical reasons,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But clearly, Apple’s chip team can deliver this kind of performance.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It isn’t a question of maybe in the future they can do it. No, they’re doing it now. They’re already delivering it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, this is incredible. It’s just so wild that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey something that runs, like you guys had said, off of a battery, something that uses

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey almost no power, like one of the key priorities when designing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the iPad CPU iPad CPU has got to be power consumption and that’s to say very little power consumption,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which is the opposite of having high performance. If you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey using very little power, you’re presumably not going to have high performance. Yet somehow the iPad Pro has its cake

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and eats it too. And if power was unhinged,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey if power was no longer a constraint, and by power I mean like literally electricity,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I can’t imagine what Apple could do. I’m probably oversimplifying and I’m fairly weak

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on the intricacies of CPU design, but it just seems like if they can do this much with, with so little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey electricity, how I imagine and with so little cooling, imagine

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey what they could do with a fan and with a whole pile of electricity. And I know you guys just said that, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s really worth reiterating that, that it could be really, really, really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey impressive. Is it impressive enough to have, say,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you know, emulation that runs at the same speed as an Intel chip? Probably not, but you never know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You never know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think the cooling is the big story here, because I imagine for the iPad Pro, and somebody should probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John test this, but I bet the iPad Pro is a lot like the recent MacBook Pros in that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s designed with the idea that most of the time you’re not using all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the cores and all of the GPU all the time, right? That it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whole reason it can be so thin and so light. And in fact, the CPU architecture itself is designed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this way with the low power cores and the high power cores. Like they expect most of the time, it’s not doing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John anything too stressful. And when it’s not doing anything too stressful, it saves a ton of power by not using the high power cores

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if it doesn’t need to, by using fewer cores. You know, if you were to use it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all the time, as Marco experienced when using the, you know, the recent generation of MacBook Pros, if you really want to stress

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it and use all the cores and do some multi-core encoding process or compiling that’s parallelized,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you will kill your battery, right? So this is not to say that we expect, you know, wow, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iPad Pro, it’s faster than everything except for the best Mac Pros, and it’s so thin,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’d kill that battery in two seconds if you just used all the cores all the time. Like, it is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so thin, its battery is so small, there’s no magic involved there. It’s just that iPads aren’t used

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like that. But the cooling is undeniable because you can, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John use the iPad Pro, peg all the cores and just let it sit there and it won’t melt itself. Like it will run and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will it throttle, will it clock? Like maybe, you know, down clock itself? Maybe a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bit, but the fact like it’s got no fan. It has no, you know, significant heat

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sink or anything to speak of like the back of the devices, the heat sink essentially. If given any kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of reasonable cooling solution, it’s gotta have so much headroom because to get similar

⏹️ ▶️ ^John performance, they have to put two fans in the MacBook Pros and only two of them are faster, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John In multi-core, right? So it’s so far ahead on cooling. And the battery, you know, obviously you can solve that by plugging

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it into a wall and getting a real computer like a desktop, or by just putting way more battery in it, right? So,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, I don’t, I think the cooling is the most impressive thing and the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thinness and everything like that is just, you know, it’s, the iPad Pro is not designed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to be used by a MacBook Pro, like a MacBook Pro, let’s put it that way, which is an interesting constraint, because Apple’s like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hook it up to a 5K display and do all these fancy pro stuff on it. I think you will really slaughter your battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on your iPad Pro if you do that, but if you have it plugged into a 5K display, hopefully you have some dongle that lets you also connect to power,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and hopefully that dongle can keep up with it, because there was situations, I think Marco described these ones, where there’s ways

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can plug in, was it your iPad or your laptop, where the charger

⏹️ ▶️ ^John couldn’t keep up with the power draw and you’d actually slowly lose battery power? Was that you talking about that?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, this has been a problem with a number of Apple high-end products recently. Like the 15-inch laptops do it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like the biggest devices running the very highest processors when they’re stressing both the CPU

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and the GPU.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, so I imagine an iPad fully loaded driving a 5K display

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with like a 12-watt charger or something might be in a similar situation. But when

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we’re looking at these numbers, we’re looking at how well it’s doing with so little. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John comparable computer is the MacBook one. And the MacBook one is way on the left side of this chart in a whole

⏹️ ▶️ ^John different neighborhood of performance. That’s the one with no fan. That’s the one,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, that’s got the equivalent cooling capacity.

Traveling with iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I got to tell you, I think I might have said this last week, or I said it somewhere, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not on the show, but one way or another, I have found myself using this iPad Pro quite

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a bit more than I’m using my beloved MacBook One, not only because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the new shiny, but because it’s just faster. And I know that the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} One is slow. That isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} hard. I know, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey know. And I know you’re being funny, but I know you’re also right. I mean, it really isn’t hard, and these graphs bear it out.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But in the past, I would use my iMac and it would be fast.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey This is a fairly old iMac now. It’s a late 2015 iMac, but it’s fairly quick even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey today. And then I would use my MacBook One and think, well, I’m portable now, so it’s just not going to be very quick and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey okay. But now I’m using this iMac Pro and thinking, holy hell, it’s both portable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and really freaking fast. And I’ve realized I can have the best of both worlds. And so because of that,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I found that I am more apt to use the iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey than the Adorable these days. And my poor Adorable is almost collecting dust now. It’s been quite a 180

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey from just a few weeks ago.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I got to say, like over Thanksgiving, I brought my new iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Pro, the 11-inch. I brought that, and I also brought my 13-inch MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Pro. And I didn’t use the MacBook Pro at all.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I only used the iPad. And I brought it like, you know, because like we, like Tiff had to do something with it. And I thought, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just in case, maybe I’ll get some work done, like some coding work done or, you know, something like that. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco first of all, I didn’t. There was never a good time for that. And so like, I just had

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the iPad and it was great. It was totally fine. It was really nice actually.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And yeah, and I, you know, I still love the Mac for doing a lot

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of other stuff, but the iPad Pro was a fantastic only travel

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco computer. And I think in the future, I will be more inclined to possibly travel

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with only it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Now I feel the exact same way. It’s tough because I feel like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I still feel like I want the parachute of having a quote unquote full

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or real computer. And I’m sorry, Mike and Federico, I hope you understand the premise of what I’m driving at. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey ultimately I really don’t think I need to bring a laptop in almost any case. The only thing that I really still feel like I need a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for is perhaps dealing with photos coming off an SD card. Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey if I want to do that triage while I’m kind of on the road, I don’t have file access and files,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey so I need to do it on a quote unquote real computer. But that’s the only thing I can think of at this point

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that I really need a computer for. And even the thing I’ve been whining about a lot lately, which is my financial management

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey app, I’ve finally taken a plunge and started using, what is it called? Banktivity?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think that’s right. And, uh, and that has Mac and iOS

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey apps. And so that problem is now solved as well. And so there’s almost nothing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that I really need a computer for a traditional computer for anymore. And that’s a weird

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey feeling. It’s been a long time since I felt that way.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah. I think I’ve mostly finding that like most of the time when I, when I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco not at home, I’m not in my office and I’m not at my giant iMac pro screen, I’m not getting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco much done on my laptop that I couldn’t do on an iPad. Like the only things that I really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like that really, you know, I can’t do without my Mac book. If I’m traveling are, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do oftentimes get a decent amount of coding work done on long flights, like where I’ll like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco code a whole feature on a long flight, but I hate every minute of it and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it, and it doesn’t happen on most of my flights. Like if I’m honest, Most of my flights, I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like, you know, fussing around on Twitter and stuff. Like, that’s what I do most of the time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco The times when I’m actually really productive on a flight or on any travel

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are the exception, not the norm. And so, I don’t see any reason to stop

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bringing my MacBook with me yet, because I have it, I might as well keep using it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know? But if I only had an iPad Pro for my travel needs and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I just did all my programming on my desktop Mac, that would be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco fine because that’s actually what happens most of the time anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, you know, listeners, if you ever wanna know when Marco is flying, you know how he occasionally does those

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like impromptu AMAs? That’s when Marco’s in a plane. Just let, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey your cue. That’s when he’s in the air.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Amazing you can get that wifi to work. Not that I use it on planes, because all I can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do on planes is look out the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} windows, but occasionally I need to use it in an

⏹️ ▶️ ^John emergency. I think I used that once to tweet something at Casey or something, didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I? It certainly doesn’t work well, and it works better on iOS

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco devices than on a Mac because like, you know, Macs have all, and I know, yes, I know, you run trip mode dot

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to fix it, but it’s fine, like, there’s so much stuff on a Mac that just assumes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that any connection it gets, it can just monopolize and just suck as much, you know, bandwidth as it possibly can,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and if you try to do that on airplane WiFi, you just get nowhere, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it just kills the whole connection and nothing ends up getting through to your computer. So iOS is much

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco better at managing that than Mac OS is. So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco actually a very nice low connectivity or bad connectivity operating system. And all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the apps tend to manage it pretty well too because they’re all written for cellular iPhones everything so it’s just it’s nicer.

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Apple price increases

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⏹️ ▶️ ^John Before we get off this hardware topic, there’s another subtopic that, again, this is mostly old news, but it’s worth reflecting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on now that we just talked about the performance of Apple’s various portable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John products and as it relates to the price, you know, the iPad Pro being amazing performance for a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John very, very tiny price compared to its contemporaries in the chart of Geekbench scores anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And that is about something we’ve talked about many times in the past, the price increases of Apple’s product

⏹️ ▶️ ^John lines in recent years. Rigo Arrojo

⏹️ ▶️ ^John put up some numbers to it in what I think is a tweet that we’ll link to, and percentage increases,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John again, because if you just look at the absolute value, it’s hard to know exactly what they’re doing. So the MacBook Air, the Mac Mini, the iPad Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the small and the big iPad Pro, all saw price increases for like, what’s the minimum cost you can get into this model?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Obviously the new models are better than the old models, right, so it’s not the same product, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, see, that’s BS. Like, there’s a number of good reasons and bad reasons why, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, some of them are valid, some of them aren’t. But like, if you say like, well, this should be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco priced higher because it’s better than the old model. That’s not how the technology business works.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Technology business makes better things available all the time at the same prices or less than the previous

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco models. So, you know, the fact that it’s better, yeah, it’s better because it’s newer. It’s using newer technology. It doesn’t mean

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it has to be more expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, but I’m bringing it up for two reasons. One, for things like the Mac Mini, which was just super ancient, because it’s not like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, that’s not just like a year increase, right? It’s significantly better. And the second reason I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get to in a second, but just to get the percentage numbers here. So the MacBook Air, you know, we have a modern MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Air. The old MacBook Air was very old and arguably was a lower end product, that is a 20%

⏹️ ▶️ ^John price increase. The Mac mini, 60% price increase, but that thing had been left alone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for years and years. The small iPad Pro, 23% increase, and the big iPad Pro, 25% increase.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Especially with the iPads, that’s not that old of a product. The 10.5 inch and 12.9

⏹️ ▶️ ^John inch were last year’s models. So a 20% increase in a year,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is what all the non-Mac mini models are hovering around, 20% increase, that’s big. And this is not just like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what the high end costs. This is like the baseline. Like it’s a reasonable machine. It’s probably got not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as much storage as you want and doesn’t have the fanciest anything, but like that’s the bottom level price.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And this is what we’ve been talking about that almost everything that Apple’s come out with, whether it’s a little tiny white cube

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that charges your device or a cover or the actual products, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it extends to pretty much every product line. The new ones that replace the old ones

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are not just like 10 bucks more expensive or like 1% more expensive or 3% more expensive,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but big, big jumps. Sometimes they’re explained by like, well, but the iPhone 10, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so fancy and it’s got this face thing and it’s the first one of its kind or whatever, but that price increase didn’t go away

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when it became commonplace. The price increases I think are significant.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And we’ve been complaining about it because we feel like Apple’s testing the limits of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whatever the term is, price elasticity. Like how much, you know, this is supply and demand. We

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have a product you want. If we keep increasing the price, presumably fewer of you will buy it. But how

⏹️ ▶️ ^John many fewer and is it fewer enough to make up for the price difference? I’m sure there’s economic terms that apply to this, but Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John been turning that dial. And as I’ve said in the past, it’s kind of terrifying to think about how much they can turn that dial.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like, is there a point where we’ve turned it too much? Now the MacBook Air costs $10 million and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John only one person buys one and we’re not making it up in volume. Right. So like there is obviously

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a limit, but they’re testing the limits and so far their experiments have been pretty successful

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in that like the number of iPhones they sold didn’t go down and like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the whole thing. They’re trying to not even report unit sales anymore. Like the unit sales are like flat or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John maybe a little bit down, but the price increased so much that both revenue and profit are up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The one and you know, we’ve talked to this to death before, but the one subtle point I want to add in here

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is, this doesn’t explain or excuse Apple’s prices, but it is something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to keep in mind that I think consumers of all kinds don’t keep in mind. I’m reminded of every time I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John look at game consoles from the past, because game consoles expand much farther back than the MacBook Air line.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You get used to buying things for a certain price. A cheap laptop,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a cheap Mac, all right, qualify, a cheap Mac laptop, $1,000. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Obviously, cheap PC laptops are like 99 bucks, whatever. But a Mac laptop like when they around a thousand

⏹️ ▶️ ^John dollars, there haven’t ever been a lot of Mac laptops that have been cheaper than a thousand dollars. If anyone breaks

⏹️ ▶️ ^John down into three digits like nine hundred ninety nine dollars or whatever, like the MacBook Air was like, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pretty much the floor. Or take something as simple as like a little white cube that plugs into the wall that charges

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stuff. Like how much does a charger cost from Apple? Obviously, the price, you know, they’re not cheap, But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whatever the price is, whether it’s $29 or $49 or whatever, or a lightning cable or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a charging cable, a cable that I plug into something to charge my phone, that costs like $19.95 or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you’ve been an Apple customer or any kind of customer for a long time, you start getting used to whatever that price is. And you just say, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the price of this thing. A USB charging cable is $19.95. And if you’re an Apple customer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for 15 years, you’re like, USB charging cable should be $19.95. 15 years later you’re like this cable should be $19.95.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John In 15 years, inflation becomes a factor.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If the price of the thing you’re buying literally never changes, it’s getting cheaper

⏹️ ▶️ ^John over time. Now obviously Apple’s got the headroom to make it true. I’m not gonna argue like Apple shouldn’t do this or can’t do this or whatever, but in the realm

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of game consoles it’s interesting to consider because you might say, well game consoles should be $2.99. The Atari 2600,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t, that’s not true, but it was $2.99 and the PlayStation was $2.99 and the GameCube is 299,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John these are all not real prices, but like, you start getting the idea

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that whenever I buy a game console, I bought a game console when I was 10 and I had a paper route and it was 299, and now when I buy the PlayStation 5, it should

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be 299. 299 in 2020 dollars, when

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the PlayStation 5 comes out or whatever, is not the same as 299 in 1978 dollars.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Do the math to figure out how much did that Atari console cost

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in 2020 dollars? And you’ll find out it was like $800. but you just get it into

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your head, like the price should be 299 forever. So what it means is your current

⏹️ ▶️ ^John game console, your PlayStation 5, is way cheaper than your Atari game console

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from the 70s or 80s was, right? Way cheaper, like four times cheaper, and as Marco

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pointed out, it’s the mark of technology and progress or whatever. And the reason I bring this up for Apple is because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John until recently in the Tim Cook era, Apple had a thing where they never wanted

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to change their prices and kept them within a product line pretty constant.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And if that product line lasts for 10 years, the product actually was getting cheaper

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even though Apple quote unquote never changed the price just due to inflation.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And again, I don’t say this excuses or explains any of the huge price increases that we’re getting here,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but if Apple literally never increased the prices, they would essentially be slowly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John eroding their traditional very large, healthy Apple margins. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what I would expect instead of what we’re seeing, if Apple was to say, we’re happy with our margins

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the way we are and we don’t think we can wring any more money out of the customer base, is that the price of Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John products would increase slowly over time tracking inflation, which would show up in sort

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of non-round numbers and you wouldn’t always be 499 for like the entry level Mac mini or something and it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John would be like, it would have to go to like 510 and 520 and weird numbers like that that aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John good for marketing purposes and stuff like that, or they can keep it as 4.99 for like five years and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the second five years, make it like, you know, 4, you know, 5.49 or like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do like step jumps instead of tracking it exactly. You might think,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John oh, they must have kept the prices of these the same for 20 years and now they have to make a 20% jump. That’s not true. They

⏹️ ▶️ ^John haven’t done that. It doesn’t excuse or explain it. But, you know, this is a strange and subtle

⏹️ ▶️ ^John point to bring up here. I do want to point out to people that if the price of something never changes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in terms of the number that’s on the price tag, it actually is going down in price over time. And if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t think about that and you live for a real long time, you realize the thing you’re paying the quote unquote same amount for is actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John getting cheaper.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It sure doesn’t feel it though, that’s the thing. Like I agree with everything you just said. Obviously you’re right, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it doesn’t feel

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it. I mean- Well, it’s not true for the Apple products aren’t doing that. Inflation has not gone up 20% since

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} last year. Like it just hasn’t. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s true. And they are not like, and Apple’s margins are so healthy to begin with. What they’re doing is seeing how much money they can get out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of it. For certain kind of sort of commodity stuff, I am aware that I shouldn’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that whatever it is, a USB cable, will be $19.95 when I’m 80 years old.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like it won’t be, it will be more expensive if the Apple is still around and they have their marketers. Because if it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John still $19.95, Apple has become monoprice. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} that’s not gonna happen,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? Apple has to increase the prices of their things at some point, they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just don’t have to do it 20% every year.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of factors going on here with Apple’s pricing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There’s a lot of excuses people can make, and some of them are valid or partly valid. One excuse

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is sometimes they do actually need to raise the price for newer components if

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they just have higher costs than before. That’s not usually the case, but sometimes it is, so OK.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Sometimes they have to adjust for new foreign currency rates when

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the pricing in, if we think the pricing in the US is bad, You should see the pricing in other countries right now. It’s way worse

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ ^John else. It’s better when they’re a US company, so our fluctuations are explicable to us, but the fluctuations

⏹️ ▶️ ^John due to exchange rates are just not explicable. And with all these things, it’s like, why doesn’t Apple just eat the costs?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s like, well, they didn’t get to be the richest company in the world by eating the costs. That’s not how business works.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, exactly. And so part of it is currency fluctuations,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco economic things like trying to forecast future currency fluctuations because they tend

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to want to leave prices where they are for a product entire cycle. So like, you know, if they want to sell

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this iPad, say, you know, in when they’re setting prices in like, you know, Europe,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco then they set a certain euro price. And they, but they have to also predict like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what’s the economy going to be doing in these areas over the next year and a half or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco two years that we’re going to be selling this product? And so will this price still be okay for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco our margins and everything with whatever is expected to go on in the economy of this country over the next year

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and a half. You know so like they build in some tolerance there. There’s you know various issues of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco taxation in different countries and everything but like there’s also you know people’s people said like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all component costs are rising all over the industry and sometimes that’s true. Sometimes like you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco DRAM gets you know short supplied or like an earthquake hits a factory somewhere and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and production’s down or something, or there’s just huge demand from crypto coin miners for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco GPUs or whatever. There are factors that do affect pricing across the whole industry. There

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is the current US situation of these crazy tariff

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco proposals and weird protectionism things that we’re trying to do that will destroy our economy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so they have to consider that and what that’s gonna do to their margins and how that’s gonna affect them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But none of that actually accounts for the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco entirety of Apple’s price increases over the last few years. It’s really simple.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Apple needs growth. Their core businesses and core profit centers

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have not been delivering new customer growth or unit sales growth at the rates

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they used to. And so with that slowing down, Apple now

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco needs to extract more money out of its existing customers. And this is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco pattern across all Apple product lines, across their services,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as well as their hardware. Apple is just turning the screws,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cranking it down, getting more money out of everybody, and that’s going to only continue.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco They are now in a position, with their finances, with their sales, with their revenue growth, with their stock,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that they have to just keep cranking. They have to keep making more money out of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco each customer. And they’re going to keep turning these dials for the foreseeable future.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco They’re really good at it. Tim Cook is really good at it. He’s really stingy, and he knows that we’re gonna pay

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whatever they ask, whatever pricing they ask. Yeah, raise the prices 25% in one year, and look, we all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bought it anyway. All the accessories are more expensive,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all the cables and everything, they’re all expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} That’s not gonna stop. so they can remove all the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John optional dongles, remove the cables, like what are you gonna do, not buy the Macbook because we don’t include the cable? No, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco still buy it. Right, exactly, and every one of those things, they can point to some rational reason

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that’s not just we wanna make more money from you. Not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everybody uses that cable, and the packaging is smaller, and we save our carbon footprint, like there’s all sorts of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco reasons. Yeah, exactly, there’s all sorts of reasons, and those are all partly true. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah, it is kind of environmentally unfriendly to ship a cable in the box that most people are gonna throw

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco away. Yeah, that’s true, but that’s not most of the reason. Most of the reason

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is this will make us more money and we need to find ways to make more money from everybody.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like, that’s it, that’s the reason. Everything else is an excuse, not a reason.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And it’s not gonna stop. Like, this is just new Apple. This is what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we have in Apple for the foreseeable future is they are basically going to just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco keep extracting more from us. they are basically like rent seeking. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just, whatever they can get to extract more out of us, they’re gonna turn that dial because that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what they have to do for their stock growth and whatever stuff that we don’t care about, but that becomes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco our problem very quickly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And this is not actually like, oh, it’s a thing they just discovered and thought they’d try to do. It’s when the growth

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slowed and stopped that they turned to this. When growth is going on,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they might be scared to do this, but it’s like, don’t do anything to mess up the growth. Like when the iPhone growth curve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was going up, up, and they kept selling more and more phones every year, and we sold so many more phones than we sold this year than last year,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’re kind of wary of, like someone might say, I bet we get more money this year. It’s like, don’t do anything that might mess up the growth.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So increasing prices might slow the growth,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} and the growth, everybody loves the growth. So it’s only when the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco growth stops. That is the reason, if anybody out there is ever upset why their favorite VC-funded

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco company is not charging money for anything, and they’re like, please, charge me money for something so I know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you can be sustainable. I want to, you know, give it, get a business model, whatever, like, let me support you so that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you don’t, you know, so you won’t flame out and sell or whatever. The VC VC funded companies

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco don’t want to impede growth at any cost. They know that if they can keep

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco growth up, they can raise more money when they run out at better terms and better terms and better terms.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So the reason why VC backed startups don’t charge for anything is because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it would slow down growth. And that’s the last if they slow down growth, they’re dead. they can’t raise any more

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco money if their growth goes away and their company crumbles because it was never seen it will begin with like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco why they do that you know people often you know commentators are often like oh you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this is dumb you should be charging money for this I I know I was there I was one of those people but like yeah

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the reality is like growth is everything as long as you can get it but as you’re saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco John like when your Apple and you’ve sold like billions and billions of phones and made billions and billions of dollars

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like at some point you start reaching saturation levels and some of these markets and the growth slows

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco down. And then you have to transition to making more from each customer through various ways.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, so the obvious, you know, other strategy that Apple has turned to at various times, like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you need something to get the growth back, right, so right now you’re doing this thing, which is like make yourself more money from

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the customer you have, but how are you gonna get the growth back? And we’ve got the whole services story and yada yada. But also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one possible strategy, if you just set aside the services thing, it’s like, okay, well, if you’re not getting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John more growth, like we know you’re not the majority of the market, like Android is still so so many more phones than you,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, as a collective, right? You could get more growth perhaps, by going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John into lower end markets, sell more cheaper products instead of your current

⏹️ ▶️ ^John high end ones. And Apple has done that with the Mac in the past, it’s kind of dabbled in doing that with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the laptops at various times. Phones, not really that much, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, that’s not Apple, like Apple Apple doesn’t want to get into that cycle where the only way they think they can find more growth

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is by selling cheaper and cheaper phones and trying to essentially compete with Android for the low end of the market. Apple always wants

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the most profitable section of the market, which it basically has with the iPhone. Just turns out the most profitable section

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the market is whatever percentage they have worldwide, like 20% or whatever they’re at, and you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John much more in the US than outside the US. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thus far, they have, you know, they’ve not said, let’s reignite the growth of the the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by expanding the people who we can sell to. There’s tons of people who just won’t buy an iPhone because it’s too damn expensive, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Obviously by raising the prices of the iPhone, they are not addressing that market

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} in any way whatsoever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re just testing like that market that we have, how much more money do those people have, right? Which is a viable strategy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But another strategy is if we sold a cheaper phone, could we start eating away

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and instead of being at 80% Android, 20% Apple, do 75, 25? Like can we start getting growth back?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The answer is probably you can’t get that much more growth back because at a certain point, you’re not gonna wipe

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Android off the face of the map. And if you wanna compete with them at price for real, you’re gonna have to sell some really cheap

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phones that wouldn’t be up to Apple standards and you have the image and so on and so forth. So,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the real growth that Apple is looking for, I’m sure is gonna come from like AR goggles or whatever, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John new product category. Like potentially it could have been the watch, but so far it hasn’t been. But just as the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iPod is the thing that kickstarted Apple’s growth, It wasn’t like finding a way to sell more Macs, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It wasn’t a low-end Mac that could suddenly compete with PCs. Like, it was the iPod. And what’s the thing that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gave them the next growth spurt? It was the iPhone. It wasn’t a way to sell even cheaper and cheaper iPods. At the end, iPods, I should have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thought of that. That was a market they went down to. At the end, you could buy an iPod Shuffle for like $50,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is incredibly low-end for anything Apple sells. Like, you can’t even get a power adapter for that price

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the big laptops anymore. They pursued the iPod strategy down

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the point where basically, you know, if you can afford any kind of digital music

⏹️ ▶️ ^John player, you can afford an iPod because we sell one for $49. And maybe you can find it on sale, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So they, and they, you know, they saturated the digital music player market. They had more than 20% of the digital

⏹️ ▶️ ^John music player market. But the phones so far, they haven’t been willing to do that. And I would argue even the lowest end iPod

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was still a pretty good music player. The buttonless shuffle aside, which was a little bit, hmm,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the shuffles with the buttons, I used them for years and I thought they were, they were a pretty good iPod. all things considered, they sucked.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, I mean, I liked, I could use the buttons with feeling them with just my fingers. They clipped onto your clothes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They sounded fine. I liked them just fine. Anyway, I should have thought

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as an example of where they gone downscale, but it doesn’t look like they’re gonna do that with the phone. So I think what Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is doing is rapidly trying to find whatever the next growth

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing is, whether it’s gonna be, you know, a new car or Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John AR glasses or whatever else, like a new thing, a new product category that will be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John their next growth vector. But in the meantime, their strategy with the phone so far,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and with all their products really seems to be, see how much money we can extract from the people who are already buying it, don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pursue the low end in any of our product lines. Like the Macs are moving farther

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from the low end. The phones are also moving farther from the low end and the Mac Pro is certainly not gonna help them there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as much as I want it to come. and then do the whole services thing, which we don’t have time to talk about it. But,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uh, Ben Thompson had a really good, uh, a story about that that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John may well link in the show. It’s an everyone can read him. We can talk about it and if you show if we want, but I feel like we’d just be repeating what’s in what’s in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John his, uh, his article. And I think he covered those spaces pretty well. The thing he brings up, which I also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t have time to discuss today is what this could do to Apple strategy. If you keep pursuing this strategy,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John does it change the nature of the company? Do you eventually lose the things that make Apple Apple. You keep pursuing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the strategy of putting less and less stuff in the box and charging higher and higher prices and not pursuing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the low end at all. And I agree that, uh, you do lose some of the characters that made Apple Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And that’s why we’re all hoping that Apple can figure out what the next big thing is, uh, sooner or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John later, if it’s not going to be project Titan, then it better be those stupid AR glasses.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So I was looking through my old Apple receipts and I found from

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey around this time in 2013. So this is five years ago. I ordered an

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey iPad mini with retina display, Wi-Fi and cellular on with 32 gigs. It was $629 and I got a smart cover that was 40 bucks.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So all in, I spent with tax $703.40. And I got myself an iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey with a cover. Now, I understand that that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that was an iPad mini. I understand that it was a long time ago, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for $703.40, I got myself an iPad mini in a cover. No keyboard, no

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pencil, but an iPad mini with cellular in a cover. I don’t have my receipt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey from a couple of weeks ago in front of me, but to the best of my recollection, I spent $1,300 on an

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and a keyboard. So I spent nearly twice as much money for an 11 inch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey iPad pro 256 with a keyboard. Again, I recognize they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey are different products at different price points, but it’s hard to,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to, to remind me my, my heart, if you will, you know, my brain understands that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this is a different product and it’s been five years. But to me, five years ago, I bought an iPad for 700

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey bucks and five weeks ago, I are not even, I bought an iPad for $1,300 and that’s almost

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Two times what I paid five years ago, but I got the same thing on the other end, right? I still just got an iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey right again. I recognize it’s not that simple But that’s kind of what it feels like and I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that Feeling is why a lot of people are getting a little bit grumbly And yeah I understand

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that the keyboard is way more complex than the little Floppy cover that came on the original iPad mini

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey with retina It’s it’s a lot more complex and I understand that a pencil is more complex,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey although I didn’t order a pencil So that would have been $1,500 had I ordered a pencil or whatever. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I mean, regular people are noticing these things, like my dad is, is a pretty big geek, but he doesn’t follow this stuff like I do.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And he said to me when he was buying his computer, holy hell, this is really expensive. And I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey exactly how much he paid and admittedly he had loaded up pretty well, including a one terabyte drive, which is not cheap,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but still he said, holy smokes. I don’t know if I want to spend all this money on a computer. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think that a lot of regular people are noticing this and getting a little turned off by it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think of that when I see that my children have already nicked my $2,000 MacBook Air.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Already? That’s how long it lasted. I stopped the clock. Yes, the aluminum, these

⏹️ ▶️ ^John presumably sturdy aluminum case has already been damaged by I don’t know what it must have been another piece of metal because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like you can feel it with your finger like it’s jagged. You can see it. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like the the edge. They well, I think one of them told me the Chromebooks at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John school don’t have any nicks on them, but all the corners of all the Apple laptops are dented at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John school. So it argues for Apple to make an unapologetically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John plastic MacBook.

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#askatp: 24/7 vs. sleeping Macs

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco free. Once again, linode.com slash ATP promo code ATP 2018.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Thank you so much to Linode for hosting all my stuff and for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Let’s do some Ask ATP and let’s start tonight with Angelo Fiorentino, who coincidentally, as

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this episode will be released, I guested on Angelo’s podcast, Double Density,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this week. So you can check that out. We’ll put a link in the show notes. But anyway, I did not add this to the show notes. So we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey are, uh, we have our journalistic integrity intact. Uh, but somebody else added the following question

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey from Angelo. What are your thoughts on shutting down sleeping or always running your Mac? Is there actually a right answer? Does

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it really just matter depending on your use case? Uh, for me, I leave my iMac

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on pretty much always. It’s probably been off a total of three hours in like the three

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey years that I’ve owned it. Um, I leave it running pretty much all the time. I don’t probably need

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to, but because I serve several things off of this, including

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Plex and include and a couple other things, I like to just always have it on.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I personally am of the opinion that now that I don’t have a spinning disc

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in this thing, that there’s arguably no reason to really turn it on and off, but I am anxious to hear the two of you correct

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey me. So let’s start with Marco. Marco, what do you do?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Um, for, you know, laptops, obviously I, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} put them in my bag. For

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco desktops, I leave my laptop or my desktop on all the time. I have the screen go to sleep

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco after a certain, you know, after

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} like 15 minutes or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco something like that. But otherwise, it’s on all the time. If you run a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco laptop like a desktop, where it’s like open all the time,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m not sure I would go for that because laptops have, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very different thermal environments. They’re not made to be run 24-7. You can, and many

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people do, and it might be okay. Although I would suggest that if you’re actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco running a laptop 24-7, maybe that should be a desktop instead of a laptop. You’re never likely to bring

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it anywhere. But you know, you can do it. I don’t recommend

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it for laptops. For desktops, they are made for that. Over the years, ever since

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the dawn of home computing, there have been lots of myths, and possibly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco true myths, I don’t know, about whether you should do this or not. One of them was like, oh, well, if you turn on and off the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hard drive a lot, power cycling the hard drive will wear it out faster. And maybe that was true, maybe it wasn’t, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But these days, you don’t have a lot of hard drives and desktops anymore. If the only thing that you’re power

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cycling is the fan and everything else is a non-moving part,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I can’t imagine that’s gonna make that big of a difference. So ultimately, what you’re probably looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at here is convenience versus energy usage. The energy usage is probably the biggest

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one. Like, you know, again, this is like, there’ve been a lot of myths about this over time too. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it takes more energy to light up, to turn the light on than it does to keep it on. And it’s like, no, it doesn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so like, it doesn’t take more energy to boot your computer than it does to keep it running for a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So in the interest of, if you’re looking for the most responsible thing to do, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to put it to sleep because the energy usage will be substantially reduced and, you know, the world

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco could use more energy consumption reduction. So the most responsible thing to do is to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco put it to sleep when it’s not in use. I don’t do that because, I don’t know, I guess I’m selfish or lazy

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or it’s an old habit from forever ago, but I just leave mine running. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t know, I drive an electric car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That’s your carbon offset. Yeah, I don’t know. John, what’s the right answer?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So I put this question in here, even though I know we’ve actually answered this question before, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think there are certain categories of questions that it’s worth us answering again

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and again because they’re common questions and people don’t listen to every episode.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Maybe someone started listening, I think it’s worthwhile, even though I’m 99% sure we’ve answered this exact question

⏹️ ▶️ ^John before. So I’m surprised neither one of you remembered that, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John did. Anyway, both of you, particularly Marco, undercutting what I wanted to say about this question. The main

⏹️ ▶️ ^John reason I put it in here is not because there’s some super duper right answer, but because I want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John argue against the instinct I see to people who are, I mean, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John probably not listening to this podcast, honestly, but people who aren’t super into technology, their instinct,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John especially older people, is to treat technology like a light. When you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not using it, you turn it off. It’s just a sensible thing to do. No one’s in the room, turn off the lights. Everybody

⏹️ ▶️ ^John knows that, right? And the most extreme version of this, which I think I’ve described in the program before,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are people who, when they’re done checking their email or checking Twitter on their phone, shut it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John down. Like, hold down the power button, wait for the big slider to come

⏹️ ▶️ ^John up, and slide the big red slider. And the next time they want to send a text message or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John read their email or whatever, they boot their phone. White Apple logo appears, they wait, they wait, they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wait, they wait, it boots, they enter their passcode or whatever, and they check their email.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I hope everyone listening to this program knows That’s not the right way to use an iPhone. You

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can do it, and you might be like, I’m saving battery power, and this I think is actually a case where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John actually it does take more battery power to boot an iPhone from cold and shut it down again than

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it would take if you left it on. I’m using this as an example of, A, it’s a real thing that people do.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’ve seen it with my own eyes, and I have failed in person to tell people not to, to successfully

⏹️ ▶️ ^John convince people not to do it. It’s a surprisingly hard thing to do if you’re talking to someone who’s not into technology. Try to convince somebody

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who like, It’s just the way I like to use my phone. Try convincing them not to do it. I mean, it’s whatever, it’s their phone, they can do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what they want, but anyway, I’m using this example where it seems extreme, mostly to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John talk to the people who either don’t realize or have habits that are formed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in error when Max didn’t have essentially sleep. Like all Max these

⏹️ ▶️ ^John days can sleep. It’s not the same as turning them off, but it’s also not the same as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John leaving them on all the time either. So for people who are still in the lifestyle

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where they sit down at their computer, boot it, use it, and shut it down, I would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John suggest to them to try the sleeping lifestyle, which again, is not the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John same as leaving it on all the time. And by the way, even when you shut it down, you still have parasitic power

⏹️ ▶️ ^John losses to the power supplies and stuff like that. So unless you unplug it from the wall, you’re not actually using zero power.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John When a computer is sleeping, whether it’s a laptop or a desktop, No, it doesn’t use as little power as when it’s turned

⏹️ ▶️ ^John off, but it does use way less power than it being powered up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And modern Macs have a feature that will let them, like Power Nap or whatever, that will let them kind of wake briefly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John without turning on any of the fans and do stuff like check your email or do time machine backups or whatever. You can disable that if you wanna save

⏹️ ▶️ ^John more energy, but what I’m saying is that if you’re not in the sleeping Mac lifestyle,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John try it. Because having a Mac that basically puts itself to sleep after it hasn’t been used for five minutes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John frees you from having to remember to shut it down, frees you from having to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wait for it to boot up, and for the most part is the same experience as if it was on all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the time. Because you come to it and you hit a key and it should, if you have a decent computer, spring to life and let you start using it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John immediately. So there shouldn’t be any long wait, certainly less time than booting. And if you have PowerNap

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and stuff enabled, like if it’s something that’s plugged into the wall and you can leave all that stuff enabled, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will have done stuff in the background usefully and your email should be there or maybe your Twitter client got a chance to check

⏹️ ▶️ ^John something or whatever. Like it’s not the best in the world. Like you might still have to do stuff when it wakes you from sleep.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But please, everybody, consider sleeping your Mac and do not turn off your phone when you’re done

⏹️ ▶️ ^John using it and turn it back and reboot it, because that’s crazy talk. I don’t consider shutting down your Mac at the end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the day to be that ridiculous, but I would consider, oh, I sit down at my Mac and I boot it, I check my email and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I shut it down. And then 20 minutes later, I come back, I wanna check my email again, I boot it, check my email and shut it down.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like don’t do that. If you’re going to be the person who shuts down, computer say boot it in the morning and shut it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John down in the afternoon or night or whatever don’t boot shut down boot shut down boot shut down boot shut down because that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John making anybody’s life better but overall I would say consider sleeping my and personally don’t know what I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do none of my Macs ever turned off unless we go on vacation but they sleep they all sleep

#askatp: SLR workflow

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Paul Walker writes, I would love to understand your photography workflow. How do you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey import photos from your DSLR? Where do you edit them? How do you organize them for archive and sharing? And which apps do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you use? Speaking of things that we have covered before, but it is worth repeating.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t know if I have the most or least complex workflow, but for me,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I will go through using Finder. I will insert the SD card from

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey my camera. I will use Finder to page through them, which I know John was probably screaming right now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But I will use Finder to go through them and delete any of the raw files that I don’t think are pretty much

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey stellar. I will delete any of the JPEGs that are not at least decent.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Then I wrote an app, I think it was over my paternity leave with Michaela.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I wrote a Mac OS app that will basically inspect each

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of those files, figure out when they were taken and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey rename them to be the date and time they were taken and stuff them

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey into a directory, into a directory structure that I was alluding to earlier this episode. So for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey example, a picture taken today would go into 2018 slash 11 and then the name

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of the file would be 2018 hyphen 11 hyphen 27 and then a space and then, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you know, whatever time it was taken. Oh, I forgot a step before I suck everything in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and those all end up on the Synology by the way. I also use the app Geotag which is free.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It’s not great, but it does the job. And what that lets me do is geotag

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the photos. So things that are coming off my iPhone, obviously are already geotagged, but things coming off my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Micro Four Thirds camera, not always the case. I have to basically tell, I have to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey use an app to track my location and and then upload them to the camera. It’s a big pain in the butt. So generally speaking,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ll use Geotag to Geotag them because it is not unusual for me to want to look up pictures by location they were taken.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And that’s most of it. As you’ve heard recently, I use Google Photos somewhat begrudgingly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ll probably end up trying Apple Photos sooner rather than later. And that’s basically it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Marco, I think you might be next in line in terms of fiddliness. So would you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey mind going next and telling me about your workflow?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Sure. Well, do you want to know what I ideally think I do

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} or what I actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey do? Yes. How about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco both? What I tell myself I do is that my iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco photos just get just, you know, I take photos in the camera app and they go in iCloud Photo Library, so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco easy. My fancy camera photos, which honestly I don’t take very many of, but my fancy camera

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco photos, I usually will import those into Lightroom first.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And the idea is to pick through them, process the ones I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco decide to keep, and then export the final JPEGs to Apple Photo Library.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco What actually happens in practice with this system is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t take very many photos with my big camera. When I do import them into Lightroom,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they mostly just sit there. I might process one that I wanna post to Instagram

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or something, and then the rest I’m like I’ll deal with this later. Then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I usually don’t. So I end up having a whole bunch of like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco unprocessed, unpicked through, unfiltered Lightroom collections

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with some of them being copied into photos. So I have these like kind of two parallel libraries

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with the Lightroom one being really kind of you know, half butted

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and I have gone through over time and sometimes like there was a period of a few years where I only use Lightroom.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And I think when I moved to Apple Photos, I think I copied those photos all into iCloud

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Photo Library. But sometimes I just can’t find a photo that I’m pretty sure I had at some point.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so I think maybe I didn’t import them all. Maybe there’s something still in an old Lightroom library. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’ve gone through multiple Lightroom libraries over the years too. So like, basically in practice,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco my system’s a total mess. And it’s just like, I’m sure I’m wasting tons of disk

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco space on duplicating photos between the two programs or between multiple Lightroom libraries or who

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco knows what. And it’s just not, it’s not the best system in the world.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You’re giving me stress just hearing this description. Like I am stressed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey out right now just listening to this. Oh my word. John, bring us back

⏹️ ▶️ ^John around. Well, a question for both of you before we move on. What do you do with your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John respective spouse’s photos? So your spouses have phones, They take photos with their phones.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And Tiff has fancy cameras. She takes photos with those. I don’t know if Aaron has her own fancy camera. What do you do with those pictures?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey For us, on the 15th or thereabouts of every month, I steal her phone for like an hour

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and I import them using the same basic process. I’ll suck them into photos. I’ll make

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a photos library. I don’t typically keep a photos library around. I will make one, suck all the pictures

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in, because when you use photos, it comes in as HEAP or HEAF, whatever the hell it’s called, and whatever the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey native formats are. And then I’ll use my little app to relocate them to the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Synology. And then on the first of the month, I do the same process with my

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phone. Wait, wait, wait, wait, you relocate them from out of the photos library?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Correct, because I don’t use photos for anything. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} don’t have a photos

⏹️ ▶️ ^John library. For all of Marco’s mess, your system is insane,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Casey. Well, no, but the thing is, is that I know exactly where all of my pictures are. They’re in that folder

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey structure in

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} the Synology.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know, but it’s quite a rubric. Anyway, continue. All right,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} so you get them off her phone, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And- So I take, in the case of her phone, I will take the most recent

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey month or so worth of pictures. I will suck them into the Synology and then I will delete

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey two months ago. So she always has a month’s worth of pictures on her phone because more often than not-

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You delete them off her phone? Hell yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John why wouldn’t I? And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from her iCloud photo library? Yeah, wait a minute. Does she not use iCloud photo

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey library? No, neither of us use iCloud photo

⏹️ ▶️ ^John library. So that when they’re on her phone, that’s the only place they are?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey only there for a month. Yeah, that’s bad. Well, but I mean, to be honest, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for either of our phones, it is very rare that there is something that is taken

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that we really and truly cherish. And if there is something that we’ve taken that we really and truly cherish,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey then it gets immediately sent to each other. And so there’ll be a record of it in like an iMessage or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like that. But your point- We still sign up for iCloud Photo Library for the phones, it’s cheap and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey reasonable. Well, we have PhotoStream. So remember that that’s still a thing. So the most

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey recent thousand

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} pictures or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey are also in iCloud. But yeah, I think my future will be iCloud Photo Library.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m just not there yet. And yeah, so basically the 15th of the month or thereabouts, I do one of the phones and the first of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the month or thereabouts, I do the other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John film. And she doesn’t have her own fancy camera.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That is correct. Although actually we just, a few days ago, I just got the Mark III version of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey our Olympus OM-D E-M10. And so technically speaking,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey if she and I can split the lenses, she could have her own fancy camera, but she

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey doesn’t really have the interest in it that I do. Cut the lenses in half. Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco work. Man, if you think my system is bad, you should see Tiff’s system. Like, she has her

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco own, like I have my own crazy system that involves multiple programs and multiple copies

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of files and not really being able to find things very well. Hers is in that same direction,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but even worse. Like, multiple apps, multiple files. She’s an Adobe Bridge user.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco She’s like, she’s the Adobe Bridge user.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so there’s like, you know, folders everywhere. She also imports stuff off of her phone, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco once every year or so, whenever it’s time to get a new phone. About a year and a half or two

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco years ago, upon seeing this crazy system one too many times, I forced

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco her to configure and set up iCloud photo library. And so at least now,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that has all of her iPhone stuff managed. But the big camera stuff is all separate.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco She has her own folder structure, basically. Just keeps stuff in folders based on what kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of shoot it was, whether it was for a client or not, whether it was a family thing or whatever else. And she has her

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco own system for organizing those and Browse the Music Bridge. And I don’t understand the entire system and she doesn’t understand mine and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco here we are. I’m sure together we both waste a tremendous amount of disk space.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then if you want to find a picture, you have to remember who took the picture and whose library is it in,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and then like, whose Mac is it on or whose cloud store is it in. And then you have to remember, was it a good picture?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So it’s in this like, all right, well, that’s.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey See, I don’t have that problem. I have problems,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} don’t get me wrong, but I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey don’t have that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John problem. Yeah, your problem is you take the photo on like a magical journey through like seven different locations and applications

⏹️ ▶️ ^John until finally landing, hopefully intact in The

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} Final Destination.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You are overblowing it, but your point is fair.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John overblowing. You import it into Photos, and then you have something crawl the Photos

⏹️ ▶️ ^John library structure, which is not supposed to be a thing that

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey crawling. No, no, no, no, no. No, you’re overcomplicating it. So, well, you’re not going to like what actually happens, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you are overcomplicating it. It’s sucked into Photos, and then immediately exported as the originals somewhere

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey else. So Photos is basically being treated as image capture, if you will.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} That’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pretty ridiculous. And then once it’s dropped somewhere else, my little app goes and sucks them up and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey spits them out on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Synology. And then the geotagging thing is like, just get a camera that does a GPS

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} already. Well, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey does. So mine does

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} as long as I tell it. You

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey just don’t want to enable it. Well, no, no, no. It’s not on the camera. So I have, there’s an Olympus app on your phone that you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to go into the app

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John say. Yeah, I know. I know how it works. Like, but they have cameras that have that like built in. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s not mine. Like all of

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} them now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco No, but it sucks. It’s not really useful because like, like we forget how, like GPS on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco phones is a GPS. It’s assisted GPS. That’s assisted by the cell towers and it helps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco them lock on a lot faster to satellites and get and get more precise and stuff. Uh, regular GPS that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco does not use cellular towers sucks. Like in comparison,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco trying to get geo tagged, uh, stuff from regular cameras that have their own GPS.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Not only does it slaughter your battery, but it just hardly ever gets a lock in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a reasonable amount of time. So like you can be shooting like first of all, if you’re shooting indoors, forget it, you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco no no chance of that working. And even shooting outdoors, like, it takes them usually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco longer to pick up a GPS signal, then then you’re using them for like, it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s just not, it’s not a very good feature, like on cameras, it just it doesn’t work

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the way you think it does. And it makes it not very useful.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Right. So my GPS workflow is basically if I’m running about, so let’s say I’m at cars and coffee

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or a park or something like that where I’m moving a lot or an amusement park or the fair or something

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey along those lines, then I’ll actually spend the time to go into my phone, turn on tracking, and then when I’m done,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey turn off tracking, upload the tracking data to the, to the camera, blah, blah, blah. But more often than not, I’m at like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey my parents’ house or at home or something like that, where I don’t necessarily need

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to have the exact, you know, longitude and latitude of every single picture. I just want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey know that this was taken at my house or mom and dad’s house. You know what I mean? And in that case,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey doing it via geotag is very simple because I just grab the batch of photos that is all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at the same location and then drop a pin on the map and that’s that. So it is probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey more complex than the most best possible answer, but it’s not as complex

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or time-consuming as you may think.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then we get to the fact that you have all your things in weird folders. Yeah. I don’t do GPS on my things at all. you just said is like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if I if I really care I will just manually tag them all with the location but most of the time I don’t because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I can see whose house it’s at and their house isn’t moving so it’s fine and now I don’t enable it on my phone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because I have a Sony camera with a small battery and I can’t afford that kind of battery life

⏹️ ▶️ ^John anyway my system is simpler than both of yours that obviously dealing with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the family situation is not any better because Apple still doesn’t have a good solution to this but I use Apple photos

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I connect my fancy camera to my computer or I take the SD card out and stick it into the back of my

⏹️ ▶️ ^John computer. That’s how I get the pictures from my camera into Apple Photos. Apple Photos

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is on my wife’s account because she’s the current family owner of the family photo library. There is only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one family photo library. Family just meaning me and my wife. My kids have their own photo libraries but we don’t touch their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pictures because they’re all garbage.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John My wife’s pictures from her phone automatically go into this library because she’s the owner of the photo library

⏹️ ▶️ ^John play for iGo photo library so don’t ever touch her phone you know her pictures just appear there right

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my phone I periodically take to the computer plug it in and import pictures from my phone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John into her library

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we have one library in apple photos with all the pictures in it and because my system is so simple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and explain what happens next I go through the photos and I mark the decent ones as favorites

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I lightly edit them if I have time. And that’s my main workflow. So if

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we were to look at my gigantic 100,000 photo library and click on the favorites collection,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it probably narrows it down by a factor of 100, maybe more. And those are all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John decent photos. And so what this lets me do is like the, you know, like the screensaver on her Mac is the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John photo slideshow thing, I pointed at the favorites collection. So now when her screensaver

⏹️ ▶️ ^John turns on on her computer, in the brief time between when the screen dims and when her Mac goes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to sleep, it shows a bunch of pictures, all of which are good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And if I ever need to make a book of a vacation or make a calendar or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I just go to the favorites collection. So that’s my main workflow. I used to do it with stars, favorites has simplified it. I converted

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all my stars into labels so I still have all my old star ratings, but that is the key component of my workflow,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is I take a ton of pictures and I go through them all, if only briefly to say,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, look at all the pictures in photos after they’ve been imported and every once in a while say, oh, that’s a good one. I had favorite.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, that’s a good one. I had favorite. And if I say really good one, I’m like, oh, I’m going to share this with the family, mess with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the picture, crop, adjust or whatever. The one downside to this is when it comes time for me to like make a photo book or something,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I realize I edit very, very few pictures. And so when I want to make a photo book, yeah, I have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my collection of favorites. I’m like, great, here’s the collection of all the pictures from our Disney vacation, all the favorites. And it’s about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John enough to fit in a book because most of them and they aren’t favorites. But then I have to edit every single one of those pictures

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} because there’s no way I’m printing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a $100 book without cropping and editing and adjusting every single picture.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m better at that now with like beach vacations, I will do all the crop edit, adjust and everything of all my favorites

⏹️ ▶️ ^John while I’m on vacation. Sort of like the end of each day, I do a full import and then I do crop edit and adjust all the favorites. But that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is incredibly time consuming, even just to do it to the favorites. But it pays dividends later when I wanna make like a calendar

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or a book or something. So yeah, that’s the system.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I forgot to mention that I do, in the case of indoor shots, try to do color correction at the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey import time. So the ones that I decide I want to keep, I will try to make them look

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not yellow, but that’s about all I ever do for editing. I don’t understand

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey how to do the magic that Marco and you and Tiff can do, but that’s okay.

#askatp: Measuring power draw

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Moving on, Dustin Goldman writes, what kind of hardware and processes does Marco use

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to measure battery usage and power draw over USB? He briefly mentioned doing something like this with the new iPad PowerBrick,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I know that he’s also taken deep dives into optimizing power usage for overcast.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco This is actually two different approaches. So the iPad Pro PowerBrick

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco testing was actually the much easier one. I have a little dongle from Plugable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that is basically a USB-C power meter, and it shows,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it has like a USB-C plug on one side and a port on the other, and you can connect it any way you want to, USB-C

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco signal chain, and it will tell you in which direction power is flowing and how much

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of it is flowing, what voltage and what amperage. That’s how I’m able to tell, okay, there is 19 watts

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco traveling from this power brick to this iPad. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of course, you have to consider things like power losses, efficiency losses, and stuff like that when

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re quoting wattages. It’s complicated, batteries don’t charge at

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the same rate constantly, they fluctuate depending on their current charge levels and whatever else, but anyway, that is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco how I measure that. How I measured overcast power consumption on the phone is different

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and a little bit older of a method that I haven’t done in probably a good six months at least,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but that was using a private framework using iOKit on the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to basically try to record the iPhone battery level

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and then just kind of graph it, or like record it over time as Overcast is running so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that I can get a more precise look at how much battery consumption has happened

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over time. And I would use different conditions and retest and run the same thing again.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That requires getting precise battery info from the software framework. Unfortunately,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over time, the precision that that framework has given has decreased.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So you can still do it. I think it might even be down to like 5% intervals now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco At first it was like, it would give you like a nice big floating point number. Then it was down to like, then it would only give

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you 1% intervals. And now I think it’s 5% intervals. So only very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco long running tests are very useful at this point for that. And so I don’t do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a lot of that anymore. Cool. Thanks to our sponsors this week. Linode and Jamf

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Now and we will talk to you next time.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco week

⏹️ ▶️ ^John now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey because it was accidental it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ ^John John did any research Marko and Casey wouldn’t let him cuz

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was accidental but you can find the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John show And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that’s Casey Liss,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, D-N-T, Marco Armin,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Syracuse. It’s accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they didn’t mean to.

Thanksgiving dessert

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco We got a lot of feedback about Thanksgiving. People really enjoyed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it. Like they turned to discussion of it and I gotta say the the photos

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Casey that you sent us of

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} what you had at your Thanksgiving

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco dinner and the photos that John sent of what he had with the antipasto

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco followed by the very traditional Thanksgiving meal. It was exactly you know you all listeners I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they’re gonna want to share these because they’re like pictures with their family but it is exactly you expect it to be. Like it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is precisely what you would guess from Casey’s description of basically having

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like stove top stuffing and a packaged ham and John’s description of a regular Thanksgiving dinner preceded

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco by like two Italian antipasto plates of like rolled up salami and stuff. Like that’s exactly exactly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as you guys promised it. It’s exactly what happened.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John very true. I skipped my dessert. My very traditional dessert. We just had you know apple pie and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco stuff. Well yeah I mean that’s like you know I think for however fancy you want to make Thanksgiving,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, food and everything. I feel like there’s actually less excuse to deviate

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in the dessert department because like traditional Thanksgiving desserts have basically like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco pumpkin pie and then maybe apple pie and other kinds of like, you know, fruit pies for the most part that is delicious.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like you don’t need different things. Like you don’t need to like, like there’s a, there’s a lot of like, you know, campaigns

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco right there at there to like only have side dishes or to like replace the turkey with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know fancier meats like not ham, but things like like turducken or like you know barbecued

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco things or whatever else and and those you know I I get the appeal of some of those things, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t get people who try to get all fancy with the desserts because to me like a really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco good pumpkin pie, which I’m happy to say we had is just great like it doesn’t need to be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like fancied up and hipsterized into some other kind of crazy thing like a really good pumpkin

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco pie is just really good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Honestly, we normally have Italian pastries and cookies as an addition to whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John other desserts we have to. We just didn’t have this time because we didn’t get around to getting them, but they go with everything. Just like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, all the other Italian bracketing foods.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco See, and I say this as an Italian American, my half my family is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Italian. And so I’m half Italian and, and I grew up eating a lot of Italian American

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco food. I have never really felt like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Italian-American cuisine really was very good at dessert.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You are insane. You are

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} insane.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Here we go.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Insane!

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco With the exception of tiramisu. Tiramisu is excellent.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Other than

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that- Italian-American food is not one of those cuisines that doesn’t have lots of good, well-known,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well-loved desserts. It’s just not. I mean, maybe you don’t like them, but-

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Am I not thinking of something? I’m thinking of things like cannolis and cookies and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, they’re great.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I have never found them to be that good. Like most of the cookies

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are- Well, they’re probably, they’re terrible in Ohio guaranteed, but if you get-

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Even in New York, even like the nice ones that I can get here. Like I always try them and I always want

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco them to be really great and they just never fulfill my expectations. They are really great if you get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John good ones. Well maybe you haven’t found a good spot, I don’t know, but because they are really terrible when they’re terrible, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in basically in most places. But you should be able to find good ones there. I mean, don’t you like a good cannoli?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Not much. I don’t like all that cream. Like, maybe it’s, maybe I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just had bad ones. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Pignoli cookies, nothing? I mean, sometimes. Like little rainbow sandwich things with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the jam in between, coated in chocolate?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I like the way all those things look. But so often they end up tasting like nothing or they just taste

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like vague sugar dust, right? Well, those are bad ones. I have so rarely had any that actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco had strong

⏹️ ▶️ ^John flavor. I mean, tiramisu could be really screwed up too. I’m sure you’ve had really bad tiramisu at places too, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’ve had bland tiramisu before where it’s all like whipped cream or something, but when you do it right,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and I actually made tiramisu when I was a teenager. Like when you do it right and you have the Ladyfingers

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and you have the real espresso and you have Kahlua and you have mascarpone cheese and everything, it can be amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But a lot of restaurants don’t wanna do all that, they don’t wanna have all those expensive ingredients around and so they substitute

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco stuff out or they omit stuff and it can be somewhat bland. But for the most part, like if you go into a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco restaurant and you order a tiramisu, if the restaurant is a decent place, especially

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if it’s like an Italian place, that’s probably gonna be pretty good. Whereas if you order,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, restaurants don’t really serve Italian cookies and cannolis very often, but if you go to a good Italian bakery and you get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco those things, I feel like your odds are actually not that great that there’ll be anything

⏹️ ▶️ ^John special. Well, you just gotta find good ones. And I’ll warn you, lots of Italian restaurants do offer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cannoli on their dessert menu. It is almost universally terrible, don’t even bother. It’s like meatballs. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you don’t know what you’re gonna get and it’s not gonna be right, so just don’t bother. It’s very rare to find any restaurant that has

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an even passably acceptable cannoli. Cannolis are difficult, I admit, but Italian cookies and other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pastries should be easier for you to find good examples, especially where you are. Maybe you might have to go to the city.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Anyway, we’ll revisit this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco No, I agree, it should be easier, but for whatever reason, I just, almost

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco every Italian cookie that I try is just, tastes like nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Hmm. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco well, and I’m always, I always want them so badly to be better than they are because they look great and I,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco some of them, like I’ve had really good ones, so I know how they’re supposed to taste and I just can’t find it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t think I’ve had real good, true Italian dessert cookies and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey things of this nature. Like I’ve had cannolis in the past, but I don’t, I don’t think they were particularly remarkable examples.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think I come down on Marco’s side on this. Like they’re,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re fine. Well, you’ve only had bad ones. It’s like saying you don’t like pizza because you live in California.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Ooh, sick burn, but I’m right

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} there with you. No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but I’ve had ones that other people consider good. Someone would be like, oh, I brought this from X

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and Y bakery, and it’s fantastic, and I try it, and I’m just like, oh, okay. I smile and nod, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s so bland to me. Well, there’s lots of variety, so you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to find the things that you like. There are some things that you may find boring or not to your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John taste, but there’s lots of, in the cookie realm, there are many, many different kinds of cookies. I gotta say, I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in the cookie

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco realm, well, does France

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco make cookies? I know they have a lot of other good desserts

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} there. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they do. I think ultimately, I think France wins on dessert overall as a category.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And if I had to pick somebody who won cookies specifically, I think I’d pick America.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I think you’re right. I think that makes sense. What’s a traditional French dessert? Like, I’m drawing a blank here.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Eclairs. Tarts.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Italian? Those tarts, I mean, I know they’re kind of a French thing, but a good Italian bakery, you know those fruit tarts that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you love? you can find those there. And they’re probably technically not Italian, but because they’re always at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the bakery that has the Italian stuff, I count it. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know if that counts. Yeah, macaroons, as Rick Allen in the chat pointed out, creme brulee, these

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} all Frank’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey things. Ooh, creme brulee, ooh, creme brulee

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco real good. Creme brulee is another thing where it’s like, you can order creme brulee at a restaurant and it’s almost always at least decent. Like, they can,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} if they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco really mess it up, like, usually the way they mess it up is by firing the sugar incorrectly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on top. Like, if they do it too little, then you get the granules of sugar under the surface.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco If they do it too much, they burn it. And if they do it too far in advance, you don’t have that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco layer of sheet ice that you can chip your spoon through on top.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know, Marco, I am right there with you on pretty much every one of the opinions you’ve had today, which means you are really screwed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey because you must be very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco wrong. I’m honestly, I’m very scared how much you’re agreeing with me because I agree that that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco not a good sign for food taste.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Not

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It is. I just Googled Italian fruit tart and maybe the thing that you think is French actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is Italian. It’s always at the Italian bakery.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco When I was talking about French tarts, I was thinking more things like, you know, like the citrus tart and stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that. No, but I’m talking about your fruit tart. Exactly the thing that you talked about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on top four that I like too, that is, you know, the apricot glaze on top and the blueberries and the raspberries

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the vanilla cream and the tart

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco shell. If that is Italian, then that is one of two great Italian desserts.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Cannoli’s up there too, it’s just hard to find

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a good one. Oh, wait, wait, wait. What are these called, John? Pizzellis? I’m sure I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} pronounced that wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Pizzellis, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} Yeah. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mean, they’re, talk about boring, but they’re,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they’re fun. Yeah, they’re fine. And I like them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Those aren’t cookies. Those are more like an ingredient in another thing. They’re more like sweet pancakes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I feel like they’re tasty, but they’re not remarkable. Yes, exactly. I’ve consumed some chocolate

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey chip cookies in my day that were remarkably good, especially for such a on-the-surface simple

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey recipe. But yeah, I cannot say that I’ve ever had a canola. And again, maybe it’s because I’ve just never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey had a good one, which is what John was saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^John earlier. I can almost guarantee that Casey has never had a good canola.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Well, no, but there’s a place in Little Italy, in Manhattan, that I know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that people from the area swore by. I couldn’t tell you the specific name of the ba— Oh, no, Arthur Avenue, somewhere on Arthur

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Avenue. Does that sound right? I don’t know. Does that make any sense? I think that’s right. Anyway, there’s a place

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in Manhattan, a mythical place where I’m told the Italian desserts are phenomenal.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I have had desserts from this area and I thought they were good. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey meh, they’re good. They’re fine.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And I’m sure we’re going to hear from lots of people like John who are going to be like, well, you just haven’t tried my favorite

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bakery. But like I’m telling you, like, if there was anything to it, like you can go anywhere

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and get creme brulee or tiramisu, and it’s probably going to be pretty

⏹️ ▶️ ^John great. I don’t see. I don’t agree with that. Tiramisu, I find to be dire almost everywhere in creme brulee is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like 50 50

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco coffee how can you possibly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John judge tiramisu I like tiramisu it doesn’t taste that much like I eat coffee ice oh

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ball it tastes a lot like coffee john if it doesn’t taste that much like coffee it’s not good tiramisu

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} you know what I mean like it doesn’t taste

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like your coffee

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} it tastes sweet

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey also a real-time follow-up from me to me uh arthur avenue is in the bronx not manhattan and i’m sure i’ve already

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey gotten 13 000 emails

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} about that it doesn’t matter It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah, basically like, if there is great, like Italian cookie and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cannoli types of desserts, I’ve never found them. Whereas I’ve found great versions of desserts from lots

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} of other places that let me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you’re ever in Boston again, I can tell you where to get good stuff. And if you’re in the middle of Long Island,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I can tell you where to get good stuff. But that’s about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it. Would you like to share so you don’t get 100 emails?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m in the middle of Long Island a lot more than I’m in Boston.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, you’re not, you gotta go, if you’re out in Smithtown, you can go to Alpine Bakery has good, almost

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everything. Their cannolis are not as good as they used to be. They used to make them smaller and the cream was a little bit different,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but Alpine Bakery’s really good. And then in Boston, Mike’s Pastry is the go-to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John place, which are, they’re a little bit monstrous and weird and New Englandy, and they have a thing that they call a lobster tail,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is not obviously an Italian thing, but if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get Mike’s cannolis and a lobster tail, hell, get that too, like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So my problem with cannolis is just like, it’s just too much cream. Like, I don’t want a dessert

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to be that much of like a cream and sugar bomb.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, you gotta, you know, they have the ones that are chocolate dipped or with chocolate chips inside them,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like there

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} are

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ways to break

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John up. You’re just adding things, that doesn’t help. Yeah, it does, it does help. It does break stuff up so it’s not as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John boring, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I don’t know, it’s not my style. I do love that like last week we had a Thanksgiving show and now

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we had a Thanksgiving dessert show.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We’re Thanksgiving dessert is Italian cookies. Thanksgiving dessert is better than Italian cookies. Don’t forget

⏹️ ▶️ ^John biscotti.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Oh god. Oh, okay. Biscotti, yeah, biscotti are good. Although, again, it’s one of those things where, like, it’s real hard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to find good biscotti, but I do agree, I have had great biscotti, and so I’ll give you that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m not entirely sure I’d classify biscotti as dessert, necessarily. You wouldn’t?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I want to give you a chocolate dip it. It’s an accessory to coffee, and it’s a very good accessory to coffee,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but I still, I don’t know if I would classify it as its own thing,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} really. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} dessert.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you had the ones my wife makes with the chocolate inside them and then chocolate

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco dipped? I haven’t had hers I have had ones that are like chocolate drizzled or chocolate dipped and they can be excellent as well

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but I don’t know it always seems like it’s not really a standalone thing it seems like you you you get those

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to dip into your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John coffee. They’re plenty standalone we go we eat like you know multiple dozens of them during Christmas and none of us have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John coffee they work fine believe me. Yeah but you’re not a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco coffee family you don’t get it. Not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco coffee

⏹️ ▶️ ^John family. Not a drug addicted family. Is that what you’re trying to say? Amen brother. Not a family

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that will have a headache if you don’t imbibe a specific substance every single day without fail that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John kind of family.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Preach. Well, I mean, wouldn’t you have problems if you didn’t have like water every day?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s that’s to sustain life not to avoid a headache.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Coffee is life man. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ ^John God, it’s actually not.

catatp.fm Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).