Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

294: The Intersection of Liberal Arts and Whatever

Mojave, Marzipan, hostile work environments, and the bagel emoji.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Bagel emoji 🖼️
  2. XS charging times
  3. Follow-up: A12 vs. Xeon
  4. Lattner on Watch Bitcode
  5. Fall-detection defaults
  6. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  7. Abusive work environments
  8. Sponsor: Eero (code ATP)
  9. Mojave review
  10. The Marzipan debate
  11. Sponsor: Casper (code ATP)
  12. #askatp: Surge protection
  13. #askatp: XS or camera?
  14. #askatp: Tags vs. filesystems
  15. Ending theme
  16. Not Casey’s drone

Bagel emoji

Chapter Bagel emoji image.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sorry about the small delay there. We were chit-chatting. I guess that’s kind of what the show is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we were just chatting about things that no one cares about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this is where somebody in the chat says no we care about everything of course, which is very kind But in this case not true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why don’t you publish the unedited show?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because we swear like sailors that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also it isn’t as good that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey the like the biggest reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t as good. It sounds worse, there’s talkovers, there’s boring stuff that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco edit out, like it’s just not as good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The people want to hear some thoughts about the bagel emoji.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is there much debate? I mean it is it is basically depicting like a lender’s bagel.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I never thought of it that way but that’s so true and that’s a terrible insult which which I know was not an accident.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it looks like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a Lenders bagel at all. John, I’m curious, like, I look at this and I see a number of problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with this bagel.

⏹️ ▶️ John People who aren’t familiar with bagels don’t see any problem with it, which is interesting because like emoji are just- So you mean Californians?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like, you know, like you wouldn’t, they’re supposed to more or less be universal and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John sure every item, were we to look at it, we would be like, like the people do with the animals. So like that animal has

⏹️ ▶️ John the wrong number of body segments, like the wrong number of legs, like there is major problems with a lot of emoji.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re just, especially since they show up small and people have different ideas how to draw them. So I don’t think the bagel

⏹️ ▶️ John is any worse than, it’s probably not as bad as an animal with the wrong number of body segments or legs,

⏹️ ▶️ John for example. All sorts of things are messed up. But anyway, bagel you would think if Apple is drawing

⏹️ ▶️ John them and they’re in America, maybe they’d know about bagels. But whoever drew this

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe doesn’t. There’s a couple of problems.

⏹️ ▶️ John The first problem I think is, Like, so bagels are, they

⏹️ ▶️ John look like rings, right? But you can draw all sorts of rings. You could draw a

⏹️ ▶️ John ring that’s really, really skinny with a huge hole in it. You could draw them with a tiny, tiny hole in the middle.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, the proportion of the hole to the diameter of the torus to the

⏹️ ▶️ John diameter of the entire bagel. There is a certain range in which something looks like a bagel.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you start moving outside that range, it starts looking, in the case of this thing, more like a donut. And you would think, isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John a donut the same

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey as a bagel? you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John familiar with bagels you might think that but the answer is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no. Well to be fair like it is a really difficult design challenge to try to design something that can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco look recognizably like a bagel instead of a donut at very small sizes like I get the challenge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there and I think the way they’ve done it here is very clever in that way like I don’t think donut first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all because it has you can see the little place where like they’re like butt crack on top where like the ends of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dough would have been joined together by allegedly by hand and so you can it’s kind of like a seam

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the bagel, which handmade bagels always have. That helps a lot, but I think the biggest thing that helps is the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way it’s sliced in half. You would never slice a donut that way. So that to me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like the best disambiguation to say, like, this is not a donut, this is a bagel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of the way it is sliced and arranged in the frame.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s why they made it that way, I’m sure. But the proportions of the Taurus volume

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, like it’s the wrong proportions, all right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco depends. It’s the wrong proportions for a good New York bagel. But it also it looks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the way like the bagels that were in my high school cafeteria in Ohio.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like food service crap bagels that are just you know like just you serve them to like high school kids for breakfast.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That it looks like that proportionally and in a number of other ways as well. But proportionally that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco roughly the proportions that those bagels had.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s not the same proportions as a lender’s bagel because lenders bagel are different portions anyway it’s it’s too regular

⏹️ ▶️ John so the the the diameter of the torus all way around is very uniform even

⏹️ ▶️ John with the bud in there so that’s not what real bagels look like or should look like but the biggest

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that jumps out at me at the size that we’re all looking at it which is very large like it’s not normal size

⏹️ ▶️ John is the texture like the cutaway part you can see it’s cut and

⏹️ ▶️ John you can see sort of the inside of the bagel and that texture looks for all the world like white bread.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John texture

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a bagel. It doesn’t even look like white bread. Like white bread has more air bubbles than this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like this is so dense. It almost actually, it looks kind of like, yeah, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, like a bun cake. Yeah, like a pound cake or maybe at best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the inside of a cake donut.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, or like angel food cake. And then the crust that they’re trying to show looks, it looks a lot more like a

⏹️ ▶️ John cake than it does like a donut. So there are everything about it just says I’m either

⏹️ ▶️ John a terrible bagel or I’m not really a bagel. I’m like a stunt dessert. You know when they

⏹️ ▶️ John make those desserts that look like one kind of food, but they’re really made of cake. This is like a bagel, but actually it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John really it’s a cake bagel. Like it’s actually a cake, but it’s made to look like a bagel. Like the outside is all fondant

⏹️ ▶️ John and the inside is angel food cake. I give them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty good credit. So not only did they did they did the slicing thing show that it isn’t a donut unambiguously.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I do give them credit. I think the general coloration and shading on the outside

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it is reasonable. I think they did a good job of that to make it look mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bagel-like and not like any other round bread products.

⏹️ ▶️ John I disagree. The color is off. I think it’s… I’m trying to place what’s wrong about it. Maybe it’s like…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Real bagels are lighter and a little bit less saturated. Yeah. It’s too smooth. It identifies

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clearly as a bagel. You are right about the finish, though, and I’ll get something in a second but um coloration and shading

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i think they did a pretty good job but i agree like the the the density

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the interior is what sets this off as like that looks crazy like it looks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s made out of styrofoam or something

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s definitely the uncanny valley like the correct definition uncanny valley is you get really really close to

⏹️ ▶️ John what do you think it’s supposed to look like and that’s what’s so upsetting if you’re really far in the uncanny valley thing if you look nothing like

⏹️ ▶️ John a human everybody’s fine and if If you’re exactly like a human, everybody’s fine. But as you get really, really, really close to human,

⏹️ ▶️ John but not quite human, that’s the uncanny reality. So this gets close to a bagel, like again, with the slicing and everything,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s so close to the parts that are wrong. I think it fixes it so easily. Like change the proportions slightly,

⏹️ ▶️ John make it more uneven, fix that top texture and adjust the color slightly. And make

⏹️ ▶️ John the outside of it like less uniform. Because it’s practically like a perfect circle on the outside of this thing. Like no actual bagel

⏹️ ▶️ John has this kind of perfect, for like the top is at least got the butt little thing to try to make it a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John disproportionate, but the bottom looks like just a perfect ideal solid of, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John pound cake or whatever the hell it’s supposed to be. Like it was it was formed in a cake pan and a mold.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the kind of bagel like you’d see this like at a hotel breakfast buffet,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where like next to the big guillotine thing that you can slice it in half and then put it through the belt

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey toaster. Yep,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yep, yep, yep.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Real good bagels, as I’ve mentioned before in this show, have a slight sheen to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them on the outside because They are typically boiled in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco water that contains some kind of sugar, usually a malt syrup or something like that. They’re boiled in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco water before they’re baked and it gives them this coating of whatever the sweetener is in that water that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gives it a slight shine. That is one of the major differentiating factors of a bagel versus other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco round bread products and this doesn’t appear to have that. And this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is setting aside the issue, it also doesn’t appear to have any seeds, which I I think is a missed opportunity, but I’ll set that aside

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because seeds are, I feel like it would be difficult to design the seeds on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in a way that wouldn’t look like sprinkles on a donut, so I see why they didn’t, but I think if they’d designed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it like an everything bagel, where there’s a certain distinct set of colored seeds that are on there that would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never appear in a donut, I think making this an everything bagel would have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been even more recognizable as a bagel and just better form because everything bagels are better. Indeed.

XS charging times

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, for one of you that has a fancy pants new phone, can you tell me about charging times

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the bundled charger?

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t actually tell you and I’m sure Marco can’t either because we haven’t done what this, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John this little follow up item is described, but I think somebody, I think I lost the where the information came from, timed

⏹️ ▶️ John how long it took to charge the iPhone tennis and the iPhone tennis max. If you use the charger

⏹️ ▶️ John that comes in the box with the phone, we talked when the phones came out, they were disappointed that they didn’t provide a new charger. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John still the same old, very, very tiny, but also very, very weak five watt charger that iPhones have

⏹️ ▶️ John come with for a long time. I think one of us asked, like, I wonder how long it takes? Well, someone timed it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPhone XS, if it has no juice and you plug it into that charger, it will be fully charged in three

⏹️ ▶️ John hours. And the XS Max in three and a half hours. And I guess some people are horrified by this, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m actually surprised it’s that fast. Yeah, me too. So,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it’s probably time for a new charger, But on the other hand, the slower you charge, the healthier

⏹️ ▶️ John it is for the battery. And I mentioned, I think, well, how long is it supposed to take? Well, overnight, right? Like, you plug in, if the battery

⏹️ ▶️ John lasts all day, you plug it in before you go to bed, and in the morning, it’s charged. And you don’t care that it takes

⏹️ ▶️ John three hours, because hopefully you’re getting more than three hours of sleep, and charging more slowly is better for the battery in the phone than

⏹️ ▶️ John charging as fast as possible. So it makes some kind of vague sense to have a five watt charger

⏹️ ▶️ John in the box, but probably they could go a little bit bigger, a little bit faster, without

⏹️ ▶️ John worrying about overheating the battery or shortening its life or whatever. So there are the numbers, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John bottom line, if you are in a hurry, get yourself a different charger, a more powerful charger than the one

⏹️ ▶️ John that comes in the box and you don’t have to pay Apple’s prices where you can find, you know, another 10 watt or 12 watt charger

⏹️ ▶️ John and it will charge your phone faster.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s good to know.

Follow-up: A12 vs. Xeon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I think this next follow-up item has you written all over it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that was the last week I was noting the, what was it, speed something, some JavaScript

⏹️ ▶️ John benchmark that David Hanemar-Hansen posted about where

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPhone XS was faster than Marco’s computer, the iMac Pro. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John opined that, you know, benchmarks are weird and everything, but it’s amazing that the phone can beat that computer

⏹️ ▶️ John in anything because the Xeon has more of everything than the phone system on a chip has got

⏹️ ▶️ John more execution uses more registers, more instructions in flight like higher clock speed, like more

⏹️ ▶️ John memory and everything about it. There’s more. Well, Heinrich Wadden wrote in to say that that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not actually true. The Xeon has more of everything except level one cash. Apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John the A 12 has 128 kilobyte level one cash for

⏹️ ▶️ John 128 kilobytes for instruction, 100 kilobytes for data. And those are that’s a very big

⏹️ ▶️ John size for an L one cache. The Z on only has 32 kilobyte. Of course, it has up to 18 32 kilobyte caches because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s got 18 cores. Each core has 32 kilobyte instruction, 32 kilobyte

⏹️ ▶️ John data. Um, that’s a more reasonable size for level one cache. I’m assuming the reason

⏹️ ▶️ John and I mentioned that, you know, your entire benchmark fits in your cache. It can make you go very, very fast. Maybe that’s what’s happening

⏹️ ▶️ John with the 8 12. Um, but one of the reasons you might have this gigantic L one

⏹️ ▶️ John cache on the system on a chip is it doesn’t have the crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John deep and huge cache hierarchies that a xeon has i didn’t look up the other numbers but i’m sure if you add up all the cache

⏹️ ▶️ John l1 plus l2 plus l3 is this huge amount of memory that is bigger than what the a12 has

⏹️ ▶️ John uh the a12 can’t afford to have that much memory just because it’s not enough die space for that much uh to have like a gigantic

⏹️ ▶️ John you know 32 megabyte l3 cache or something like that right um

⏹️ ▶️ John and so they have to you know that like with all cache things. They don’t just come up with a number for the heck of it or just like

⏹️ ▶️ John say how much space do we have and let’s put as much cash in there as we can. They simulate and you know

⏹️ ▶️ John test eventually different cash sizes to figure out what is the most beneficial for our workloads.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it doesn’t surprise me that if you have to spend your money and your die space that

⏹️ ▶️ John making a really really big l1 maybe not having any l3 and the skimpy too

⏹️ ▶️ John because those may be more distant, uh, temporarily speaking from, from the,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, from the core than the L one spent, spend it all on a really, really big L one because that gives you the best performance

⏹️ ▶️ John on your workloads. But so there you go. The eight 12 does beat the Zion and one spec,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, in terms of, uh, you know, any specs that you would think matter for a CPU and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the spec that’s helping you on the benchmark.

Lattner on Watch Bitcode

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, Chris Latner has commented sort of about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what we had talked about the prior episode with regard to bitcode and 64-bit watches. And he commented on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Twitter that hardware has multi-year timelines, and we could see this coming, this being the 64-bit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch. Making bitcode happen was a ton of work for many teams. So that seems to me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be an implied, slightly implied, statement that, yeah, this was in no small part

⏹️ ▶️ Casey directly about this very thing. was no small part about this very thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John He even made like you can link to the tweet in the show notes. He even made a sort of a sly comment about like people were saying, but wait, I thought

⏹️ ▶️ John you said on ATP that it was, you know, bit code was just about like, well, for example, if we add a new instruction,

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t have to recompile your apps, take advantage of or whatever. And he was like, yeah, I mean, that’s true. And I said that,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like, not that it was misdirection, because again, it is true. And you know, you can listen to what he

⏹️ ▶️ John said on our show about everything he said is true, but he wasn’t going to say on our show. Oh, and by the way, we

⏹️ ▶️ John forced everyone to do is bitcode for the watch because we knew this 64 bit watch was coming five

⏹️ ▶️ John years ago. But now that it’s out, he was willing to tweet something that hints in that

⏹️ ▶️ John direction that yeah, hardware timelines are very long. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John as I speculated last show, it’s the type of thing that you could potentially foresee and plan for, especially when you’re Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John and you make the CPU, the operating system, the compiler to shit toolchain,

⏹️ ▶️ John the ID and you run the app store. These are the type of things that you can do and plan for and have it all come together.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That justification was enough to get people to stop asking too much about it with a smiley face. Hardware has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey multi year timelines and we could see this coming making bitcode happen was a ton of work for many teams.

⏹️ ▶️ John It loves it when a plan comes together. That Chris Lander.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The team very well done. You proud of me? Proud of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John me?

⏹️ ▶️ John I was very surprised. I live

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for this moment, John. I was just going to mention

⏹️ ▶️ John that maybe Chris isn’t old enough to know that show. I think he’s a little bit younger than me,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John he?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe that’s right.

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s younger at heart. He’s younger at heart than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me. I mean, everyone’s younger than you, John.

Fall-detection defaults

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And since you are the token old man, that’s a perfect segue to the next follow-up item. You might, if you get a new watch,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to turn on the fall detection because even though you are an old man, you are not yet 65. And apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the watch will look at the age you’ve entered into HealthKit and the health app, and it will only turn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the fall detection if you’re, I think it’s 65 years or more. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and this came up because I know of somebody, I don’t mention anymore, who had,

⏹️ ▶️ John who, do know who I’m talking about who had a situation where they fell

⏹️ ▶️ John and fall detection could have in theory triggered but didn’t because this person is not 65

⏹️ ▶️ John or older and so I think it’s worth you know I mean it’s up

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess it’s up to each person but be aware that just because you got the new watch and you think it’s great it has fault detection it doesn’t if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John under 65 and you haven’t explicitly enabled it so consider that if you want it if you want fall detection

⏹️ ▶️ John turn it on for yourself right and maybe you think you don’t need it because you’re not old and you don’t fall down.

⏹️ ▶️ John This person that I’m talking about is not super old. Sometimes people fall down. might be worth

⏹️ ▶️ John looking into.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Linda Dong, who was a designer at Apple for a long time and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now is working at Lyft, had commented on a tweet from Ken Koshenda,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who you may recall was the author of Creative Selection. His tweet read,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you’ll note that I used the past tense here, it has since been deleted, but it read, Steve Jobs once told me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey straight to my face that my work was, quote, dog feces, quote, except he used a euphemism there,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or another word there. He wasn’t attacking me. He was saying my work wasn’t good enough yet,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it wasn’t. Criticism doesn’t need to be constructive in the moment to be useful in the long run.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey To which Linda replied, I’m sorry, no. One of the worst parts of my time at Apple was the toxic culture that this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey line of thinking bread swearing it in swearing at and insulting people’s work is not okay and is never helpful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Criticism for criticism’s sake is a power move and she goes on and a few more in a few

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more tweets It’s worth reading this whole thread in addition There’s a back and forth that I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see until I was looking at the show notes earlier tonight Between Linda and Ken kind of going through this and talking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. I I thought this was very interesting and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I I can’t say that I’ve ever really been in an environment where I’ve gotten like yelled at or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said that this is you know Crap in the same way that I’m sure happens quite a lot at Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I don’t really see how it’s not that that really helpful to be so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no vulgar is what I’m looking for But I don’t know something that the three of us have talked about quite a bit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the difference in directness between between your stereotypical California and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your stereotypical East Coaster. And I wonder if some of that is being reflected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here, but I still think her point is fair. I don’t know, that’s a lot of rambling and words. Marco, you haven’t talked in a while, tell me what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you think.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, it’s hard to get too far into because it involves like the private personalities

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or the behind-the-closed-doors personalities of people who not only we don’t know, but are dead. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s kind of difficult to get too far into it. But I do think that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco berating people in unnecessary ways like that, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying that their work is a swear word, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unnecessary. And I think two things can both be true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It could have produced good work in the past, and also it didn’t have to be done that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. are ways to get good work out of people without insulting them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and and using like really like emotionally charged language.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I don’t think that kind of environment is necessary to produce good work. In this case,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it did produce good work, but that doesn’t mean it was necessary. That doesn’t mean that was the only way to get it done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John going to try to tell a story I think I’ve told on a podcast before. It’s about something I

⏹️ ▶️ John watched on television as a kid, and I always wish the Internet had a way for me to find like where can I obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John every video is on the internet somewhere can I find this television program from when I was a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey kid the answer very often is no because I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John remember enough about it but I’m pretty sure it was an episode of Nova or some similar

⏹️ ▶️ John PBS series that I was super into when I was a kid I think it was

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about uh military training and it was like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like a voiceover of like that voice of God voiceover guy he does the front line stuff I forget what his his name is, um,

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about, uh, some of the techniques used in militaries throughout history and

⏹️ ▶️ John across the world to, to make an effective fighting force. And one of the things that we’re talking about

⏹️ ▶️ John is like a bootcamp or whatever things we’ve seen in movies where there is a very strict

⏹️ ▶️ John drill sergeant or someone who’s training the troops who is very harsh and cruel to

⏹️ ▶️ John the trainees. Uh, and part of that is to build unit cohesion because they

⏹️ ▶️ John have sort of a common enemy, not an actual enemy, right? But like a common antagonist and,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the sort of collective punishment where if one member of the troop messes up, they all get punished.

⏹️ ▶️ John And rather than berating the person who causes them all to punish, they would try to lift each other up. And like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s also they’re explaining this philosophy and like also

⏹️ ▶️ John explaining sort of gender differences and how men, you know, and testing men are more willing

⏹️ ▶️ John to do ridiculous things at the behest of the mean person, like

⏹️ ▶️ John accepting of the system that they’re put into. I guess this is the system. I guess this guy yells at us and if we do anything wrong, we get

⏹️ ▶️ John as heavily punished. So whatever they say to do, I’ll do, which is important in combat because you want people to follow instructions without question.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can have people like debating whether they should or shouldn’t go over that hill. You know, this is what the voiceover is saying while

⏹️ ▶️ John this voiceover is going and explain this philosophy with like, you know, visiting professors and historians chiming

⏹️ ▶️ John in. They’re showing a bunch of people in military uniforms sitting at these really, really

⏹️ ▶️ John long tables and they’re all like in sequence and they’ve got their lunch trays and someone is yelling.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s in a different language, so they’re not and they’re not in, uh, it’s not in English, so they’re in some other country and

⏹️ ▶️ John someone yells and they all sit down at the same time and they all put down their glasses and they all pick up like their forks

⏹️ ▶️ John and then as the voiceover is going, it’s like it’s building to a point or whatever, like they’re making all the points they’re going to make

⏹️ ▶️ John as the voiceover is sort of coming, coming to its, you know, main point, uh, someone yells

⏹️ ▶️ John something in some other language and all of the people at the tables take their banana off of their tray, because

⏹️ ▶️ John they all have the same meal and they put it on top of their head. They put the banana on their head and then

⏹️ ▶️ John balancing the bananas on their head. They all begin to eat while, while keeping the bananas on their head, right? Because that’s what they’ve been

⏹️ ▶️ John been ordered to do, right? And they’re, you know, all doing it together. And as this is happening, the voiceover

⏹️ ▶️ John says, these men are security guards at a mall. What?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like the ultimate stab, which is saying, the stakes can be so

⏹️ ▶️ John low, but if you yell at people and are terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John to them, particularly men, everybody, but particularly men will

⏹️ ▶️ John succumb to that and do whatever you tell them in a mindless fashion because they’re so willing

⏹️ ▶️ John to go along with essentially the big angry ape who is in the room yelling at them like the alpha

⏹️ ▶️ John dog the what you know whatever it is a sort of primal animalistic thing

⏹️ ▶️ John even if you’re not in the armed forces even if the stakes are you’re a mall security guard right

⏹️ ▶️ John a fleet of people who are all putting bananas in their head and eating because that’s what you have to do to be a mall security guard

⏹️ ▶️ John i always think about that uh the susceptibility of people to fall

⏹️ ▶️ John into this pattern of… I don’t know if it’s Stockholm syndrome. I obviously didn’t pay enough attention to

⏹️ ▶️ John the parts that they were talking about because I just remember the mall security guard at Apple, or banana on a head stinger.

⏹️ ▶️ John But so susceptible to accepting the idea

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can be treated poorly because you stop thinking about the

⏹️ ▶️ John fact that you’re being treated poorly. You start thinking about, I have to do what I’m told this is this is how the world

⏹️ ▶️ John works. You accept you accept the parameters that are set before you. Everyone else around you is doing it. You learn

⏹️ ▶️ John through painful lessons that this is the only way to get along. This is the this is the path of least resistance is to accept

⏹️ ▶️ John the yelling to accept and just do just do what you’re told. That’s probably far afield

⏹️ ▶️ John from what we’re talking about here at Apple but I think about it because there’s some aspect

⏹️ ▶️ John of that culture in people who are in an environment that is is essentially, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, abusive where, you know, people are yelling at you or making you feel bad or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And many people will not just

⏹️ ▶️ John accept that, but come to believe that there is there is no other way and that this is the best

⏹️ ▶️ John way. And Marco talked about, you know, it didn’t have to be this way. You could have got to work a different way. Even that I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John is accepting the idea that like, well, of course it works to yell at people because yelling at people always works, but maybe there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John another way. And I think Linda’s point and the thing that I always think about is by yelling

⏹️ ▶️ John at people like the opportunity cost of being abusive in that way is not whether

⏹️ ▶️ John or not the people who work there thrive. It’s all the people who will never work there because they don’t want to be abused or who

⏹️ ▶️ John did work there and were chased out. The cost of all those people who who will not work in that environment

⏹️ ▶️ John for whatever reason is much higher than the potential cost of well the people you do

⏹️ ▶️ John have there maybe they do better if you were nicer to them. You should be thinking about people like Linda who left or other people

⏹️ ▶️ John who like will never work when they hear there when they hear a story like that. And again, it’s not entirely gendered. But part of it is that

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of that was one of the major points of the Noah thing, scientific studies showing how much more willing men

⏹️ ▶️ John are to put up with crap like that. For whatever reasons, they have all sorts of theories in the show with

⏹️ ▶️ John professors and historians and evolutionary biologists talking about why it may be that men are more

⏹️ ▶️ John susceptible to that. But I feel like that’s, that’s the main point here

⏹️ ▶️ John is that regardless of who works well in that environment, regardless who thrives in it, regardless of the point

⏹️ ▶️ John that Ken made, which is which I think is absolutely true. Criticism does not need to be constructive in the moment to be useful

⏹️ ▶️ John in the long run, like that you can take a lesson from a terrible thing that happened to you. Like it can be

⏹️ ▶️ John totally unconstructive criticism, but you take a lesson from it.

⏹️ ▶️ John None of that changes the fact that all the people who you chased out of the company by being a jerk and all the people who never

⏹️ ▶️ John work there because they know to work there, you’re you’re going to get abused. That is a much higher cost

⏹️ ▶️ John than any cost of like, well, I didn’t get the optimal work out of this person because I yelled at them.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, like there’s a couple more stories in the thread about just, you know, bad things happen

⏹️ ▶️ John at every company. Apple’s huge company like this. Another person tweeted that my second week, someone

⏹️ ▶️ John came by my office and said they didn’t think my interview was up to par and would make sure my manager knew I shouldn’t be at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John He says it wrecked me and continues to bother me. So awful. It’s just there

⏹️ ▶️ John is no like, oh, well, it’s tough or well, people are being direct. Those are excuses made

⏹️ ▶️ John by people who are putting bananas on their heads, essentially. Like you’ve got the banana in your head and it’s like, well, some people can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John hack it in this muchismo and it’s tough and it’s direct and we’re just not, you know, you just got to toughen

⏹️ ▶️ John up or whatever. You are all bored of the banana on the head train. You are putting the banana on your head as a mall security

⏹️ ▶️ John guard and you’re eating because what everyone else is doing. And that is total BS. So like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I come down pretty strongly on being emotionally abusive is never the right thing to do in any work situation. And

⏹️ ▶️ John people shouldn’t tolerate it. And the fact that good things can come out of that is ridiculous,

⏹️ ▶️ John because again, great things come out if you’re not emotionally abusive, and don’t chase away all the people who won’t

⏹️ ▶️ John work for you anymore. So I’m with Linda on this. But I but like, the truth is, I mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t get into as too much when I mentioned there’s certain like categories of people who seem to get along well and thrive at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John Part of it is there is a subset, subcategory, a sub feature of people as they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John willing to put up with people being jerks to them and are able to not have it absolutely crush

⏹️ ▶️ John them, which is terrible. Again, they’re really good at putting bananas in their head and not feeling foolish.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s true that that is a skill that makes you successful at Apple, but it’s a shame. It shouldn’t be required to work

⏹️ ▶️ John there and it shouldn’t be something you ask people that you ask of people

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Mojave is out. Has anyone installed it?

⏹️ ▶️ John Nope. Well, you know, I can’t run it on my computer, but I did install it on my wife’s.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. I’ve installed it on my adorable. I have not installed it yet on my iMac, But I will probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do so in the next week or two. What are your thoughts, John? Would you like to do the oral

⏹️ ▶️ Casey retelling of the review that you haven’t actually written?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m so I’m so far out of the loop. Like not only, you know, I haven’t even got to the point where I finished reading

⏹️ ▶️ John other people’s reviews about I like know nothing about Mojave, which it’s like I’m I’m overcompensating for

⏹️ ▶️ John for, you know, 15 years of knowing every intimate detail of the stupid thing before it’s even released. Now, I know

⏹️ ▶️ John nothing about it. less than the average person about it. I was doing like

⏹️ ▶️ John I installed the final version. I never even installed any of the bit. It’s installed the final version. And I’m like, so what’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey new

⏹️ ▶️ John in this operating system? I have no freaking idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Like

⏹️ ▶️ John what are the apps again? Stocks, voice memos. I had to go through the application folder to find all the Mars band things.

⏹️ ▶️ John And yeah, on the plus side, I guess I didn’t break everything

⏹️ ▶️ John in my computer. I had to do a a couple of like give this application full disc access like

⏹️ ▶️ John for the backblaze backup thing. Um, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s, it was a non event as far as everyone in my family’s concerned, which I consider a plus on any

⏹️ ▶️ John upgrade. Like they didn’t go, what did you do to my computer? And nothing broke and it didn’t take a year and a day

⏹️ ▶️ John and fail halfway through or anything like that. Just, you know, smooth sailing. Uh, I did

⏹️ ▶️ John launch a bunch of the Mars event apps. They are what everyone said. They are weird looking iOS things

⏹️ ▶️ John on your screen. We we talked about that. When do we talk about that? Back when Mars band was announced a little bit after W. We see we had a

⏹️ ▶️ John couple of long discussions about what that means. Was that episode called extinction level event? I think

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco talking

⏹️ ▶️ John about what Mars band might mean for for the Mac. Those you know, those applications

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m I’m kind of glad voice memos exists because my kids sometimes need to record themselves

⏹️ ▶️ John saying things for like classes in school. Believe it or not, like this is the assignments kids get these days. Please

⏹️ ▶️ John record yourself saying like, you know, for Spanish class or whatever. And they’ve been using QuickTime player, but voice memos is honestly

⏹️ ▶️ John a nicer interface to do that. Then you know what you have to do in QuickTime player to make it happen.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not as obvious as it is in voice memos. But other than that, like they’re super weird. Like I launched

⏹️ ▶️ John one of them and you can’t help it. Like I know, I know it’s Mars band. I know it’s just an iOS app. I know I shouldn’t expect it to be Mac life,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like in the stocks app or whatever when it’s got a bunch of stocks in the side, I want to delete a bunch of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, so I right click them, but it’s like the right click. What are you thinking? not going to do anything. It

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t do anything. I’m like, maybe if I swipe to the left with my mouse cursor, so I’m like, I’m trying to go into iOS mode

⏹️ ▶️ John with a mouse pointer. It’s like, nope, that’s not going to do it either. You just got to like, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John when you learn a language, but you’re still translating in your head to your native language, right? Like you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey not fluent yet. That’s what it’s like using Mars pen

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Mac. So I didn’t know to make heads or tails that I just, I just closed it all out.

⏹️ ▶️ John Um, let’s see, have I done anything else interesting with Mars pen? Uh, if you remind me

⏹️ ▶️ John what, what’s supposedly, Oh, I played with the desktop backgrounds that change based on the time of day. That’s nice.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I like that. The I like that the when you maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John you guys don’t see the screen that much, but my wife’s computer is always on a login screen where it shows all of our different

⏹️ ▶️ John like little icons for the users, like our whole families lined up there, right? And you click on whoever you are and then

⏹️ ▶️ John you type in your password, right? That’s all bigger. The pictures are bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and I noticed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. Mm hmm. I quite like that, actually.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but that was nice for all people who are his vision is getting bad. Um, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, I don’t, I don’t think I’ve done a much of anything with it, so I don’t have much to say beyond those, uh, very vague

⏹️ ▶️ John first impressions.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. And you haven’t touched dark mode at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I thought it was interesting that when you log in for the first time, it asks you, Hey, do you want it dark motor light

⏹️ ▶️ John motor? And it gives you a little picture of it. Right. Uh, and I picked light mode for my account,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I did go to the preferences and turn on dark mode. I never expect to

⏹️ ▶️ John use dark mode. I’m just not like no matter how good it is, even if everything was all super consistent and awesome

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything like it was totally you never you never got that thing where all of a sudden you open a window and there’s a white light.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would just I just wouldn’t use it. I don’t want it to be dark, even though it looks kind of cool in screenshots. And I think some

⏹️ ▶️ John apps look very, very pretty. That’s not my style. So I’m never going to run it. But I did enable it just to see what it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like. And it’s like, all right, well, you know, it’s it’s just not a thing for me. I do like the highlight

⏹️ ▶️ John colors, though, whatever they’re called. The that changes all the parts of the controls from blue to whatever color you pick.

⏹️ ▶️ John Those colors look nice. And I’m excited to have that feature back like various older versions of

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS had features similar to this that lets you add a little personality to computer that I think is more exciting

⏹️ ▶️ John and more interesting than dark mode. Of course, you mix and match them. You get like dark mode with an orange highlight. You got a Halloween

⏹️ ▶️ John type thing or a red highlight, and it looks kind of sinister. I’m happy they’re doing something with the appearance

⏹️ ▶️ John of the Mac and for people like dark mode, thumbs up, but it’s not. It’s not my bag.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I have been running dark mode since I installed around a week ago. It was a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dare of two before we recorded last week’s episode. And I have kept it on nonstop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my adorable to get really used to it and see whether or not I liked it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t like it. And I think the thing I don’t like most of all is that so much content

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is just super bright white because for, you know, 30 years or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’ve typically had bright user interfaces and so it’s not unreasonable for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something to be bright white. But like something that I’ve seen a fair bit of recently is say when I get an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey email from YouTube about something that is just glaring. It’s just incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bright white. And that’s not the only example, but it’s a great example. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey suspect that dark mode is going to be popular enough or big enough or hell even the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac is popular enough or big enough that somebody like YouTube is going to figure out a way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to to turn things dark when the system is dark

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John yes

⏹️ ▶️ John you to have a dark mode already

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not for Mac but YouTube does what I’m talking about like YouTube emails and stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know and weed mountain in the chat is asking did I try Hayes over which I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey heard about but I’ve not tried and my understanding is it takes a best guess at flipping style

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sheets into like a pseudo dark mode. And that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t strike me as though it would be great. I haven’t tried it, so maybe it works better than I expect, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just don’t think dark mode is for me. I wanted to try it for a while and see what I thought, and I have, and I don’t like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will say that the screenshot stuff is really good, though. You know, the same sort of thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have in iOS, where it has a little like floating icon in the bottom of the screen,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then you can take action on that screenshot and and then delete it immediately. I really, really like that, and I’m really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey glad that’s on the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I haven’t actually tried that, but I’ve seen all the screenshots of it. On the dark mode, light mode thing, I think I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John said this before, but to me, being a super old person, one of the defining characteristics

⏹️ ▶️ John of the Mac was that it came at a time when pretty much every computer,

⏹️ ▶️ John the aesthetic, and not just for aesthetic reasons, but practically, there’s a bunch of practical reasons,

⏹️ ▶️ John you had a black screen like a hundred percent black and the text

⏹️ ▶️ John on it would appear in whatever color like if it was a monochrome monitor you’d get just the one color green

⏹️ ▶️ John amber or whatever and so it’d be a black background a black screen and it would light up the letters

⏹️ ▶️ John and that was the aesthetic of computer of all computers essentially especially before the GUI

⏹️ ▶️ John and you didn’t have to be that way like because the screens the screens lit up all the screens that had like amber

⏹️ ▶️ John or green, they could have been an amber background and then black out the pixels with the letters for it. But they didn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John Nobody did that. That’s not what computers look like. When you think about computers those times, you think of a black background

⏹️ ▶️ John and light up colors. And the Mac was the first computer that I had ever seen that totally

⏹️ ▶️ John reversed that aesthetic. So it had proportional fonts, a bitmap display, a monochrome monitor,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it could have its monochrome monitor. Why wouldn’t it be exactly the same as anything? It’s like a monochrome. You know, it was

⏹️ ▶️ John a CRT, just like everything. Why wouldn’t it a black background because that’s not what paper looks like. Paper

⏹️ ▶️ John is white and the ink is dark. And so everything on the Mac was a white

⏹️ ▶️ John background with dark ink. And I related to that, you know, the intersection

⏹️ ▶️ John of liberal arts and whatever, which would only come decades later, right? I said, that’s, yes, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what I want. I like books. I like paper. I like printing. And these are proportional fonts. Of

⏹️ ▶️ John course, it should be a white background with dark ink, which is what it’s been for, you know, centuries,

⏹️ ▶️ John millennia. Like, that is the way writing should look. I’ve never looked back. Like, word processing,

⏹️ ▶️ John to me, on the Mac, like saying, oh, it’s like a typewriter, even. You put a white piece of paper in the typewriter and

⏹️ ▶️ John you have a black ribbon and the little thing strikes it, right? So, that’s the way

⏹️ ▶️ John computers should work to me. And it has a resonant, emotional, and sort of, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John revolutionary meaning to me, that, like, that it was a stake in the ground, saying computers are not

⏹️ ▶️ John at a black endless void with green and amber text on top of them. We can on in

⏹️ ▶️ John the computer make something that brings the best of the things we’ve made outside of the computer and it should

⏹️ ▶️ John look like beautiful paper with proportional fonts and you know fine lettering and all that other stuff. So I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t think I don’t want I don’t you know my when I do programming I don’t I don’t want it to

⏹️ ▶️ John be a black brown or light with light text which all the kids love these days because every text editor that you get

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and like

⏹️ ▶️ John all of the modes they come in are a black background with like candy colored letters on top of I don’t want that on

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of my word processing. I don’t want on my web pages And you know and I don’t on my window chrome to be like that because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s you know It’s it’s jarring if you have the white against that I just want the whole thing to look like beautiful pieces

⏹️ ▶️ John of paper with you know, nice little chrome or Platinum or whatever surrounds

⏹️ ▶️ John so I don’t think I’m ever gonna be a board the doc mode chain Even though I think it does look cool in screenshots a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah real-time follow-up from Ruffolo in the chat. He’s over doesn’t do the flipping style sheets thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although I could swear something I heard about does do that. Anyway, uh, they, they said that it only makes the windows

⏹️ ▶️ Casey behind your active window dark. So that seems even less appealing to me to be completely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey honest, but again, I haven’t tried it, so who knows? Um, but yeah, I mean, uh, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will say that Mojave seems good. Seems nice. No, no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actual complaints. I mean, dark mode isn’t for me, but that’s not a complaint. It’s just not for me. Uh, the finder

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stuff, I haven’t really gotten that into, but that might be because the Adorable has a postage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stamp size screen. And so I feel like all my Finder windows are extremely tiny now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I’ve allowed space for that sidebar. But I haven’t really taken, I haven’t really gotten anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of that sidebar, but I’ll probably try that again once I have this thing on my iMac.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But yeah, I mean, all in all, it seems good. No problems, no complaints, but I wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say it’s revolutionary either.

⏹️ ▶️ John More stable than Sierra and High Sierra in their point O’s, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Probably but I don’t typically knock on wood have have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 0.0. Stability problems. I usually have been pretty fine with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with any of them

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s not really stability as an old term But like, you know unforeseen bugs things that aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco compatible

⏹️ ▶️ John things that used to work that don’t stuff like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, what about like like almost every version of Mac OS in the last, you know decade or so probably ever but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at least recently recently, almost every version seems to break some subsystem a little bit because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was rewritten or rethought or it was a discovery deed and everything all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a sudden like in that subsystem like oh like in this version like USB audio devices are wonky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or this version network discovery is wonky or in this like there’s always something right and so often it’s audio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I wonder like do we know like with High Sierra a lot of it was the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the graphics stack being so much of it being rewritten in metal or changed around to enable eGPUs, whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever what’s going on there. So High Sierra had lots of GPU and graphical bugs,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and like Windows Server stuff. So I wonder, like, what is that from Mojave? Like, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there one of those from Mojave? Like what, what, what is broken in point O that we should

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expect might not be fixed until point two or point three?

⏹️ ▶️ John I hope it actually fixes an audio issue, which I’ve actually actually found a somewhat a solution to so my my stupid laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John at work has various ailments. And one of them lately has been when I come in on Monday after my computer

⏹️ ▶️ John has been sleeping at home for the entire weekend, like if the lid has been closed, it’s asleep, it’s on, but to sleep,

⏹️ ▶️ John I come in on Monday, I open the lid and usually able to fingerprint my way

⏹️ ▶️ John into it. But then I get beach balls like maybe I can click a few things and bring a window

⏹️ ▶️ John to the front or two, but then it starts beach balling and then you know, maybe your cursor changes when you mouse over the dock,

⏹️ ▶️ John but then it beach balls and then like just it’s just beach balls everywhere. And sometimes I let it sit there and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John is it going to come back? And just it doesn’t like I give it five minutes, 10 minutes. And eventually it’s like, look, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John I think I have a meeting coming up and I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey look at my

⏹️ ▶️ John calendar until my computer comes back. So I basically need to hard reboot it. Right. So that’s that’s one of

⏹️ ▶️ John the major elements is bothering me. But the second one is that every once in a while, usually when I’m about to do a stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John WebEx meeting with somebody, right, uh, my computer stops making sound

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely. All right, so I get on the WebEx thing and I can’t hear them. I can see the

⏹️ ▶️ John little the little lines on the little microphone icon going, but I can’t hear anything. I’m like, is it muted? Turn the volume up. Nothing happens.

⏹️ ▶️ John Then

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I go to iTunes won’t play. I make sure the output is set to internal speakers. It is. I go to the sound

⏹️ ▶️ John control panel and try to play a beep sound. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, you know what? I just remembered when I had a 2017 I had that issue like I think once or twice that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happened to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And audio just audio stops playing that you will never hear another sound from the computer I finally

⏹️ ▶️ John came up with a solution that is better than rebooting which is kill all core audio D which depresses me

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey but

⏹️ ▶️ John what

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’m hoping

⏹️ ▶️ John is it maybe because that will that will kill that audio demon name my computer makes sound again it’s a miraculous

⏹️ ▶️ John fix I love it it’s great when I find the right process to kill but I hope Mojave

⏹️ ▶️ John fixes that because this is all back on high Sierra so I have some hopes that maybe while we fixes something in a subsystem

⏹️ ▶️ John but of course I won’t know until I can upgrade at work and work of course is blocking the upgrade to

⏹️ ▶️ John Mojave until they decide that it’s safe.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean to be fair like that isn’t unreasonable like Apple’s history with the.0 releases of these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not great recently. Yeah I’m not complaining. And honestly like the.1 occasionally makes things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worse so like I like I I’m trying to decide when I should install this and honestly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I gotta say what I’ve heard from almost everyone is it’s fine and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have heard that more about this release release than about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any recent release. And the same thing, give them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey full credit. I can say the exact same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing about iOS 12. Exactly. iOS 12 is also, since the beta was rock

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solid, I ran the beta all summer. It was fine. There were no problems.

⏹️ ▶️ John Props to Apple for lots of complaints about stability of their OS releases, especially in

⏹️ ▶️ John the.0 and they’re two for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two. Yeah. And even watchOS isn’t too bad. So well, you’re great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a curve for a watch with. Yeah, oh, totally. Like on the new hardware, there are some bugs in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco WatchKit because I remain confident that Apple does not test WatchKit,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like at all. Like I’m pretty sure no one’s job in Apple is make WatchKit apps to make sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco WatchKit works. And so when they did the new watches, basically the new watches,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they have curved edges, they now have safe area insets, kind of like what the notch did to the iPhone 10,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where like now there’s like the concept of the safe area. So the screen goes so far, but the safe area

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like the full height on the iPhone 10 minus like, you know, the 40 whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the top and the 20 whatever at the bottom for the notch and the home indicator. Well, those Series 4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watches now have those same safe area concepts basically. And there are certain areas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of WatchKit where it’s just comically buggy. Like in the current Overcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch app, you’ll see that if you try to scroll the list views if you if your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco finger starts on the table header it doesn’t scroll correctly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it like part of the table scrolls under the header and then stops and then the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco second touch is required to get it to scroll more and but if you begin the touch on the table view doesn’t do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like and that’s just a bug and watch it like I can’t do anything about that I filed it we’ll see what happens there’s other bugs were like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you have a page view controller on the Apple watch, which is the kind that has the dots in the bottom and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco swipe between pages like the overcast app, uh, the page view controllers calculate the safe area inset

⏹️ ▶️ Marco incorrectly and apply it basically twice. And so nice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps that use page view layouts on watchOS can’t put controls

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in like the lower 40 pixels of the screen. So we have significantly reduced height.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If we do try, it’ll just be scrollable unnecessarily which nobody wants so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a wonderful thing about that like it’s just it’s anyway watch OS is is buggy only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the way that they added new hardware and just the support for that new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware is pretty half-baked so far but the rest of the OS or when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco running on an old hardware is fine it’s rock-solid I was running that all summer too it’s fine and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I gotta give him credit this recent you know round of releases has been pretty damn good. I mean, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think TVOS updated and I didn’t notice so that’s fine too. Like the rest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the world, we don’t notice whatever they did and it’s fine. So you know, got to give them credit.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is a pretty good round. So I am thinking about installing Mojave and I’m just I’m a little bit scared

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I’ve never thought it was a good idea to install a .0 and especially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in recent years when the.0s have been so rough. But I do do keep hearing that Mojave is fine. I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, you can still wait. Like if there’s not a feature that you’re dying to have, there’s no harm in waiting. But yeah, like

⏹️ ▶️ John seems good all around in terms of and hopefully it’s because they we had those rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John a while back that we talked about a show of like, well, things they supposedly pulled from all these releases because

⏹️ ▶️ John they, you know, to concentrate on stability to say, OK, well, what I figure what they were, but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey this

⏹️ ▶️ John was going to be an iOS 12, but it’s going to be delayed till 13 and similar for Mac stuff. And whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John they did, seems like it was the right call.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it worked. Like, yeah, whatever they did, it worked. So keep doing

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Yeah. And I think people… And the other side of that is… And people are not annoyed

⏹️ ▶️ John that iOS still doesn’t have enough features, right? It only takes a couple, like shortcuts alone,

⏹️ ▶️ John which was basically mostly an acquisition app play with some OS integration, but not

⏹️ ▶️ John like a major new deep OS thing like multitasking

⏹️ ▶️ John or notification center or that type of thing. But it’s a significant new feature that some people are,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that really has a big impact on their the power users and

⏹️ ▶️ John people who are not power users just want their phone to work well.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, they want new they want new emoji. And they want you know, the built in apps maybe to be a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John better, but mostly it may be better performing than the old OS on their existing phone or whatever. But mostly, they just don’t want their

⏹️ ▶️ John phones to break at this point. So I don’t think people are like, yeah, they’re stable, but I was 12

⏹️ ▶️ John was was a dud. No, I think people like it. People like the new features. They’re not missing whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John was pulled from it. I think overall, we’d much rather have a release like this

⏹️ ▶️ John that has enough new stuff to be interesting as opposed to cramming everything in

⏹️ ▶️ John and having one or two of those things sort of spoil the whole barrel of

⏹️ ▶️ John apples. One one rotten apple spoils the bunch. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know. You know, something like

⏹️ ▶️ John that. Yeah, because because even if everything else works great, but the whatever the major new feature is is flaky.

⏹️ ▶️ John That just makes the whole phone experience better. I could, you know, take down the whole thing and cause springboard to

⏹️ ▶️ John reboot or like if there was like a keyboard problem, it would come up in every app that has to bring up a keyboard. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they made they’re making better decisions. They’re making better life choices.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I will agree. I’ve been very pleased with Mojave on my adorable. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I said, I’ll probably put it on my IMAX sooner rather than later. It’s been going. It’s been going really well.

The Marzipan debate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey One thing, though, that I did want to bring up is a series of tweets by a friend of the show, Steve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Trouton-Smith, wherein he started thinking about Marzipan,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which again is the iOS apps on macOS kind of cross-framework thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Steve wrote, everybody’s looking at Marzipan and going, wow, these apps will never fit in on macOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I’m here going, wow, this is what Mac apps are going to all be like in a few years.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So to rephrase, Steve is saying the way that Marzipan apps look and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey potentially function is probably, to his estimation, probably going to be what all Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps look like in the future, which makes all of the grumpy old men that like the Macs, like the three of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us, did I just say the Macs? Oh my God. Anyway, that makes the grumpy old men like us really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey grumpy. So Steve continues, logically, I expect Marzipan to get better on the desktop visually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and functionally, iOS-based apps to dominate and subsume macOS-based apps, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey many of iOS’s paradigms to win in this transition, enabling new classes of touchscreen computers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that otherwise wouldn’t exist. So he finally, he wraps up with, macOS is Apple’s incompatible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey niche, non-touch fork of their dominant software platform, and that hurts it more than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it helps those divides have to go. Let me read that first sentence again. Mac OS is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple’s incompatible niche non-touch fork of their dominant

⏹️ ▶️ Casey software platform. That hurts, man, but I think he’s right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s a weird realization to come to.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not right. It’s not a fork of iOS. That’s not how it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey works. Well, sure. But basically,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey take the point as he means it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, this, you know, we went through, we went over a lot of this when Marzipan was announced and or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco discovered and then later announced. So, you know, we’re not gonna go too far into it. I don’t think but famous last words.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, I think to a large degree he’s right. You know the way you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to view Mac OS is not from the from the perspective of long-term Mac users, but the perspective

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Apple a company run by a bean counter that has iOS as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco its dominant platform by a long shot. Of course, Apple has and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will continue to put way more effort into iOS than macOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That has, and way more effort into the iPhone and iPad hardware than the Mac hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But here, let’s ignore the hardware for now, we’re talking about software now. iOS has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already been dominating all of their attention for the last decade, and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to continue doing that. So as much as we love the Mac and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need the Mac to continue and to grow and to mature and to get attention. The fact is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple hasn’t been giving it that much, and while they’ve made great strides in the last year or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so, it seems, it doesn’t seem reasonable to expect the Mac to ever be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a high priority in this company again. It isn’t even just about being a priority to Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s also about being a priority to all other developers out there in the world. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really hard for companies to justify

⏹️ ▶️ Marco building really great Mac apps when they can get so many more people on iOS. So often, the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is relegated to just a web app or an electron kind of thing, which is just a web app, really.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, it’s so often, like, the Mac is kind of lumped in with, like, web and other,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, for, you know, from software development perspectives of, like, how do we bring our app or service to,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, to different platforms? You know, you got, like, a native iOS app, if you’re lucky. You get a native Android

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app if you’re lucky and then like everything else just gets like a web app in some kind of container. There is no future

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here where the Mac continues with lots of attention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco paid just to it and there’s all these like wonderful boutique Mac apps like native Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know app kit kind of apps that are highly polished for everything we need to do. That isn’t even the present.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s definitely not going to be the future. We’re not going in that direction. And that hasn’t been the case for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while now. We have some great Mac apps, but we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a lot, and we’re probably not going to have a lot more. You have to come to the realization,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as Apple probably has, and as many developers have, and as many companies have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have to come to the realization that if the Mac isn’t worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco supporting for for most people to a large, like with a large investment.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How does the Mac continue? Does it just continue getting like neglected and having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very small number of good apps being made for it while the entire world passes it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by? Or is there some way to harness what the entire world is doing anyway to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac better? So that’s I think what the goal of Marzipan has been. Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco saw this coming. They at some point in the last few years had a wonderful change of heart about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac that they seem to just want to die for a while but now they seem to not want to die anymore which is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it sounds like faint praise but it’s progress so they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have to bring the Mac forward somehow when both they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everyone else can’t justify pouring tons and tons and tons of ongoing effort

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into it so what do you do find a way to leverage your iOS code base both Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and developers. And I’m one of these developers. I’m not trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hide this or minimize this. It is not worth bringing my app to the Mac because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s too much work for too small of an audience. And part of that is just because not a lot of people listen to podcasts on the desktop.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So my audience is even smaller than the average might be for some kind of thing like this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it is not worth me rewriting my entire UI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a platform that’s probably going to have less than five percent of my user base and and then having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to maintain that entire ui over time is also not a trivial amount of work so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if apple gives me a way to bring my ios work to the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mac with minimal effort to to make it work that changes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things completely then i can still be maintaining one code base one ui layer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and only have minimal changes like what i do on the ipad like because the ipad has about five five percent of my usage,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s okay because I don’t it takes less than five percent additional work to make that happen. So I do it and if the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can become that kind of thing, then I’ll do that too. It won’t be that kind of thing if it’s a hundred percent more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work because it isn’t worth it and we have seen again. We’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seen for the last few years the kind of attention Mac OS gets from Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not enough if the Mac is going to move forward and and mature and ever have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco meaningful progress made on it, from a software point of view, it needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s attention much more than it has, and it needs developers’ attention much more than it has. And the only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way to do that is to help reduce the differences of working on and targeting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco macOS as a platform. That, I think, is what Marzipan is doing. Now, that all being said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these reviews coming out about Mojave and about how much the Marzipan apps suck, We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only know a very small part of the story so far. Apple hasn’t even told us their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco real name for it yet. They gave us very little information because they knew people would find

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff in Mojave. So like, all right, we have to tell people what this is. That’s all, like we don’t have to tell them that much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more about it. I continue to believe that like, look, there’s a reason why the apps they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco brought over from the iPad versions were these kind of like low priority apps,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what, News, Stocks, HomeKit, and was that it? Like, Voice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Memos. Voice Memos, right. These are these very simple, pretty low priority,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, or low profile apps. Like, if Voice Memos sucks on the Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, there wasn’t a Voice Memos on the Mac before, so, oh, well, it’s better than nothing, right? If, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, News is probably not that bad, because it’s mostly about just browsing what’s basically big web views anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then, you know, stocks, who cares? Stock people don’t usually have great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco taste so that they don’t really care what their app looks like. And then you have HomeKit, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is apparently really horrible, but it’s pretty horrible on iOS too. It doesn’t seem like it’s that much worse on the Mac. It seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the Home app is equally horrible on all of its platforms. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they didn’t do is they didn’t port mail. You know, they didn’t port mobile Safari.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They didn’t import iOS Notes. Like all of these apps,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco significantly more complicated and higher profile and more frequently used apps didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get ported to Marzipan. They didn’t throw away their Mac version of Mail or whatever and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that. I think there’s a reason for that. And part of it, I’m sure, is that this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just still a very early stage project. But also, I still believe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the rumblings we heard earlier this year about like a new UI frameworks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stuff like that. What was it reactive frameworks or declarative frameworks like I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still continue to believe that maybe maybe there’s something else on the horizon here and and we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just seeing part one of this story and there’s a reason why they only ported these really trivial

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps over and they’re kind of holding back on us because whatever the other parts are aren’t done yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and that’s why this thing doesn’t have a name. That’s why number one that’s why we don’t have an SDK.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s why like they don’t want they wouldn’t want developers using whatever they’re using now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to start putting our apps over if they’re gonna be replacing it in a year with like a brand new you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know type of UI framework or something that that can that can be a better cross-platform framework.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think what we’re seeing now is such a tiny part of the likely story

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s hard to say well the future of the Mac is horrible because it’s gonna be filled all these crappy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS ports because I think there’s really good reasons why they ported

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they did and only what they did and possibly why they aren’t trying too hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make those old UI kit widgets in those apps better on the Mac because maybe they aren’t going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be there for very long.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Here, here, I agree with everything you said and I mean in my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey magic wand waving perfect world, the Mac would get at least as much, if not more,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey attention than iOS. I think of the time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I spend in front of a computing device, I spend probably more time in front

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of my two Macs than I do anything else. My iPhone is probably closer behind than I give it credit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for. I think I said on this show recently, I haven’t touched my iPad in months.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would love to have the Mac get all the attention and have the Mac get all these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wonderful first class apps. But the reality of the situation is exactly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what you said about overcast. Like it’s just not worth it. And so if it’s not worth it for you, it’s not gonna be worth it for most

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other software developers, big and small. So I think this might be the next best thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I could not possibly agree with you more that I think we’re just seeing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the first ripple in the water, if you will. and I think that there’s much, much, much more coming. So we’ll see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what happens. John, what do you think?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think I said most of what I want to say about this on ADB episode 280. If you haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ John heard it, you should check it out. That’s the episode entitled Extinction Level Event, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John related to what I think these APIs arriving on the Mac might mean.

⏹️ ▶️ John The only thing I think maybe I didn’t cover in that episode that occurs to me as I look at

⏹️ ▶️ John look at Steve Trout and Smith’s tweets about this is the idea that like so these API’s come

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s tons of developers who know them. You know, how can

⏹️ ▶️ John how can traditional Mac app stand up against that changing definition? What makes a Mac app like that has always been evolving?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m all on board with that. But the one thing and maybe I did mention this in the show, I don’t remember what I said. One thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that gives me a little bit of pause is like, just because if there’s some unified API

⏹️ ▶️ John that works across iOS and Mac OS and just because every iOS developer all thousands of thousands of iOS developers becomes

⏹️ ▶️ John like really easy for them to make a Mac app. All right, they could practically take their app as is with some minor

⏹️ ▶️ John changes and run it on the Mac, right? Doesn’t mean that there will be a huge

⏹️ ▶️ John bounty of new Mac software development to the degree that it will revitalize the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John and make it as popular as, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, as iOS, right? Like, you know, obviously it’s going to help tremendously and that’s what we’ve talked

⏹️ ▶️ John about in 280 and that’s what Marco was talking about it it’s like it’s a huge change but the

⏹️ ▶️ John example that I think about is the iPad which already lets you run iOS apps on it you know with

⏹️ ▶️ John some minor changes here and there unless you run them as is if you 2x or whatever how many

⏹️ ▶️ John people who make iOS software can be bothered to a make an iPad app at all and be make a

⏹️ ▶️ John decent one and the iPad like that’s like the best case scenario for the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John If only the Mac could be as compatible with iOS and as easy for iOS developers

⏹️ ▶️ John to develop for as the iPad. The iPad is so much more like the phone than the Mac is, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s got a different size screen and you know there are some other issues involved in it and you should really change your app a little bit, take

⏹️ ▶️ John advantage of that. But it’s nothing like the Mac where you have things in Windows and giant screens and all sorts of stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you know if you build it a bunch of people will come but I don’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ John like I still expect it to be the distant third place or fourth place, depending on how you count

⏹️ ▶️ John the watch or whatever. It’s like, you know, well, we make a phone app and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John if our app is the type of app that benefits from an iPad, we’ll make an iPad app. But Mac users can just go to the web,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But it’s so easy to port your app. Like, it’s not even harder than you can run iOS. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John eh, maybe. Can’t they just… Can we make an electron app or something and use it on Windows too? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s going to take, you know, I’m not that down in the Mac, because I still think as as Mark

⏹️ ▶️ John was pointed out many times in the past, and as as all is implicit in what we talk about, lots of

⏹️ ▶️ John people still use the Mac to do their work. Like, lots and lots of people still use PCs

⏹️ ▶️ John to do their work and lots, lots of people still use the Mac to do their work. And they need some applications to do them. And as a reason they use the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac and not big iPads, part of it is because Apple has advanced the iPads and hasn’t made big enough

⏹️ ▶️ John ones or whatever. But like, until that changes, you’re not going to be able to actually get rid of the Mac or PCs

⏹️ ▶️ John in general, right? I mean, I suppose Apple could just stop making it and never has to use PCs or whatever, but like it fills a

⏹️ ▶️ John role. So there’s some baseline level of support and usage is going to keep happening until something can replace

⏹️ ▶️ John it. So I don’t think like the Mac will just fade away and everyone will do all their

⏹️ ▶️ John Photoshop work on their phones because that’s not going to happen, right? And if Apple never makes an iPad bigger than the current ones,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s also not going to happen because no one wants to do Photoshop on their dinky 12 inch iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? People want a big honking retina display and a powerful computer and you know, a drawing tablet and

⏹️ ▶️ John all that, you know, like whatever, like that’s still gonna happen. It’s just a question of how the development is gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John have as long as so long you can get along with just using applications that were developed in an age when the Mac was much more

⏹️ ▶️ John dominant, right? So one possible solution is essentially the Mac becomes, you know, a big

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad in terms of software support, not in terms of like the software is there, but it’s like it, you know, if you want to make an app like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John your phone app and make it really big or develop for the iPad first

⏹️ ▶️ John and make, you know, like the Affinity Design apps for iOS and everything like that. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s going to be a long time before we figure out how software is going to work

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Mac. But unless something, unless probably one of Apple’s platforms comes to replace

⏹️ ▶️ John it, unless it goes away entirely, it has built-in life support based on the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John there there is no replacement for certain things that you do on the Mac. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that will help with this, you know, this batter battle for the future of the Mac in terms of what are

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac apps look like, what API’s do people use? Like the reason this battle is taking place at all

⏹️ ▶️ John is Apple even recognized this point. You can’t just like, well, we don’t really have to worry about the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’ll it’ll gently fade away. It won’t. It won’t gently fade away because there’s nothing to replace it yet from Apple. Like they have

⏹️ ▶️ John an advanced iOS to the point where I can do everything that Mac does. So we have to figure out something to

⏹️ ▶️ John do with the Mac. Marsman or something like it is a possible solution but it’s gonna take

⏹️ ▶️ John a while to sort out and they have the luxury of having that time because it’s not like it’s a race against

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone just abandoning Macs entirely because there’s nothing for them to abandon them for except I suppose Windows

⏹️ ▶️ John which you know is a somewhat legit threat now that Microsoft’s making its own hardware and everything but everything I hear

⏹️ ▶️ John is that the the OS and experience is still not quite up to stuff so I’m still mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John ignoring it, but we’ve all talked about how attractive and interesting Microsoft hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John is. So maybe Apple should keep one eye open about that as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, something that occurred to me, and you kind of glanced off of this point a little bit yourself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a minute ago, is that—it’s hard for me to articulate, but let me take a stab

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at it. So when UIKit was new, when the iPhone was new, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they had AppKit, which At that point, it wasn’t legacy, but now is the legacy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey UI framework to generate apps and create apps for the Mac. They had AppKit and they thought,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s redo this and let’s take some lessons we learned from AppKit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and let’s do them a little bit better. I’m obviously deeply oversimplifying, but that’s how

⏹️ ▶️ Casey UIKit came to be. UIKit is what we use on iOS and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to some degree on some of the other iOS platforms like TVOS and watchOS, kind of, sort of.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But UIKit is generally understood to be better in most ways

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than AppKit and certainly more approachable in a lot of ways. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a new developer to any Apple platform, it seems silly to go for AppKit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it’s old and slightly busted. Why not use UIKit? And now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Marzipan, we’re bringing UIKit onto the Mac to kind of either replace

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or supplement AppKit. But what if some of this is going to go the other direction as well? And what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if, you know, and I’m thinking specifically about the rumblings we’ve heard about 4k external

⏹️ ▶️ Casey displays on iOS. What if we do need windowing on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on iOS? What if we do need some of these things? What if we need a menu on iOS? With that I’m less

⏹️ ▶️ Casey convinced is true. But what if, You know, what if some of these uniquely Mac traits need to go toward

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS? And what if we’re on the precipice of some new thing that replaces

⏹️ ▶️ Casey UIKit? Now I’m kind of bringing in what Marco was saying earlier. What if we’re on the precipice of some new thing that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey UIKit 2, if you will, that is kind of the all-consuming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new version of UI programming for Apple platforms that can handle windowing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or not. It can handle a menu bar or none. can handle touch or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not. And it just becomes all things to all people. I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s what’s going to happen. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can certainly see a future where iOS starts borrowing from Mac OS Mac OS starts

⏹️ ▶️ Casey borrowing from iOS. And this is what I think Steve Trout and Smith was also driving at. Suddenly, the delineation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey between the two gets much smaller.

⏹️ ▶️ John You still need to convince people to make to you again, with like the iPad, you need to convince them to make a bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John version of your phone app that takes advantage of the iPad screen. Like so many people just can’t be bothered because there’s not enough customers.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not like they’re mean people. It’s just like, well, most of my users are on the phone. Some people have

⏹️ ▶️ John iPads, right? Especially with the universal apps where you can’t charge again for it. Like the Apple wants you

⏹️ ▶️ John to make one app that runs on both. You could make two separate apps, but it’s not the thing to do these days. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ John so in any future where there’s any kind of unified API across

⏹️ ▶️ John all of Apple’s platforms, whether it’s the new thing you described or whether it’s just you, I get as it is or whatever. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the apps will sort themselves by, uh, by expected work, right? So

⏹️ ▶️ John apps that take advantage of the Mac and take advantage of the things that Mac has to offer

⏹️ ▶️ John are going to be apps that are expensive things for professionals who need them to do their work

⏹️ ▶️ John and who derive value from them. Anything that you can’t charge a lot of money for is just going to be like

⏹️ ▶️ John a phone app that runs on your Mac, right? Because it was developed for the phone. Most people use it on the phone. It’s cool and nice

⏹️ ▶️ John that you get to use it on your Mac. if you complain to that developer, I’d really like it if you supported

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac better and supported more multiple windows and had right click menus on things and you know, had a

⏹️ ▶️ John better menu bar and like they’re gonna be like, just be glad you can run my app at all. Like it’s not worth it to me

⏹️ ▶️ John to do that. If I can’t, it’s not that type of app. It’s not, you know, Photoshop. It’s not one

⏹️ ▶️ John of the affinity graphics app. It’s not a CAD application. It’s not an ID. It’s not a programmers text editor,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? To to really do a good job on the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John requires a lot of effort. And you know, you’re not going to sell that many because there’s not that many

⏹️ ▶️ John max out there. So you have to charge a lot of money and you can only charge a lot of money if it provides a lot of value

⏹️ ▶️ John for someone who probably uses it for their work, which is most of the best at Mac apps have almost always been.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just so happens we also had the fun little apps. But now all the fun little apps are on iOS. That’s where the big

⏹️ ▶️ John money is for anything casual. The only reason serious apps aren’t on the phone or the iPad is because those platforms are just

⏹️ ▶️ John not capable of supporting, you know, that you could do on a 5K iMac with Photoshop.

⏹️ ▶️ John The screens aren’t big enough, you don’t have precise pointing even with the pencil, there’s no paradigms

⏹️ ▶️ John for menus and windows and stuff like that. So I think that sorting, regardless

⏹️ ▶️ John of the API, will happen and is a fine thing to happen. I think we would all be fine with that. We want the

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs to do the things that Macs are good at, and I would be perfectly okay with access

⏹️ ▶️ John to all the software that’s available on the iPhone and on the iPad in some semblance on my Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John that is better than the marzipan apps of Mojave. Obviously, like we all assume this is going to evolve,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t think it has to be super Mac if I’d like, I’ll just be glad to have access to

⏹️ ▶️ John that software. I will be happy to be able to run or even rebuy

⏹️ ▶️ John an app for a dollar or two and be able to use it on my Mac and have the developer essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John have one code base with some minor differences. perfectly fine with me as long as,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, there is some good pro photo application. Maybe Apple should get in on

⏹️ ▶️ John this business. They should think about making a pro photo app. What do you think? What do you guys think? Is that a viable business? Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John or Photoshop or affinity or, you know, BB edit or any of the applications that you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John or chrome and safari for that matter, right? The fact that chrome on the Mac is more full featured

⏹️ ▶️ John than chrome on iOS is. I like that, you know, so those type of those type of applications that I use every

⏹️ ▶️ John day, as long as those continue to exist and be developed by somebody on the Mac, I’m okay with

⏹️ ▶️ John my IRC client being a part of some iOS, you know, on a port

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, being essentially something that was developed primarily for the phone or the iPad, just because it means it will

⏹️ ▶️ John have active development, it will be sustainable for the developer in theory, because they have a larger customer base

⏹️ ▶️ John and all that. So I don’t fear the future. I’ve lived through many changes in the Mac. Nothing

⏹️ ▶️ John could be, I was going to say worse, Nothing could be more traumatic or dramatic

⏹️ ▶️ John than the classic to Mac OS X transition. So I feel like I’m ready for this. So obviously they could still blow it and

⏹️ ▶️ John do terrible things and Windows could still come from behind and eat their lunch. But right now I’m still optimistic

⏹️ ▶️ John even if, as Marco pointed out, the the Marsapan apps and Mojave are a little bit silly.

⏹️ ▶️ John consider it a technology preview.

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#askatp: Surge protection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco check out. That’s slash ATP with special code ATP. Terms and conditions apply.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thank you so much to Casper for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey David Brownman writes, we had a lightning strike in our neighborhood last night. Of course, at this point, it was probably weeks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ago, but that’s okay. And our router and modem got fried, which is not okay. Besides newer surge

⏹️ ▶️ Casey protectors, is there anything we can do to protect our electronics?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One key thing that I think most people don’t understand about surge protection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that surge protectors can be used up. They can wear out. The bad ones or the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cheap ones tend to not have any indication that this is the case. If you’ve ever seen on a surge protector

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of like second light that says like, you know, protection or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something like that, like this is what you’re looking for. Like some of them can tell you if they have, if they have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically, you know, failed or not. The problem is that the way most search factors fail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they’ve if they’ve like given up their capacity to protect you is not by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like stopping working, which would indicate to you. Oh, like this thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t work anymore. I should replace it. Nope. They just keep working happily and they just silently don’t protect you anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So what you need from from search protection is first of all, it should be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good quality, which is not easy to find and you need some way to indicate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to clearly see on a regular basis whether the protection has failed or not. Ideally, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would actually stop the outlet working if it fails, but I don’t think many of them offer that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s hard to find good quality because this is one of those areas where so much of what you buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at every price point you can buy mostly crap because it’s mostly just the same cheap garbage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the inside no matter what you buy. There’s a few exceptions you can find good stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you can’t do something very sophisticated like a whole house protector,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which they do exist, I don’t know anything about them, so I can’t tell you about those. But if you don’t have a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whole house surge protection in place, if you can find something good quality, great. What I have found

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the TripLite IsoBar series. This is a… You can get them with a whole bunch of different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco outlets. They’re like these big, chunky, metal enclosure things. And if you look at reviews of these things, people have taken

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them apart and they can actually see the components inside are like actually good quality components actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco providing a good level of protection and it actually provides of course like the the clear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco light that shows you like you are protected or you were not protected I would strongly suggest putting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of these like I actually like the just direct plug-in to outlet thing where it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally just like it looks like an outlet sitting in front of your outlet and so then you can plug into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this any number of like you know outlet strips you want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically because you don’t need your search vector to you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have 10 outlets on it you need good search protection and then you can multiply the outlets with whatever else you want whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other cheap stuff you want these outlet things from these trip light isobars are about 25 bucks for the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little plug-in kind that I use I suggest you put them put them on all your major appliances

⏹️ ▶️ Marco washer dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator, because those are surprisingly sensitive to surges,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well as put one between the wall and your computer desk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and your TV setup. And then you can plug whatever else into it you want and you’re fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And just check it every so often. Ideally, I mean, they’re kind of ugly, so you don’t want them too visible, but ideally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just walk around and check them every so often just to make sure that protection light’s still on. but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically it does matter quite a lot the quality of the thing you get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the components inside need to be a certain just quality and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strength level to absorb the surge instead of passing it along to your equipment.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then also be aware that they do wear out. And they can wear out even if lightning doesn’t appear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have hit your house. Like they wear out from just protecting you from smaller stuff over time. And maybe just over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time they just flake out and they fail. So be ready to check them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a somewhat regular basis and buy good stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John The other thing I’d add is the thing a lot of people don’t think about is like when you

⏹️ ▶️ John charge your phone at night, maybe it’s on your bedside table where a lot of people charge their phones, you

⏹️ ▶️ John take a little cable that came with your phone and you snake it down to

⏹️ ▶️ John the little power brick thing, whether it’s the five watt or a 10 watt or 12 watt or whatever, and you plug that in.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, very often people plug that directly into the outlets behind their nightstand or something. There’s no

⏹️ ▶️ John surge protection there. You’re leaving that plugged in all night long where there could be a thunderstorm that you sleep through or whatever. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of things that are very often connected for hours at a time directly to something that could be

⏹️ ▶️ John affected by lighting strike, your phones and iPads are high in that list. So you don’t think about this, but get

⏹️ ▶️ John get a surge protector for your bedroom or for wherever you have your thing plugged in. I don’t, I don’t know if the little

⏹️ ▶️ John white power bricks have any kind of protection in but I’m just going to assume they don’t. Don’t just plug them directly

⏹️ ▶️ John into the wall. There is no protection there. You’re leaving it plugged in there for eight hours. to get a search thing for that,

⏹️ ▶️ John for wherever you do that.

#askatp: XS or camera?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Matt Taylor writes, should I buy a tennis for the camera or a $1,000 actual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey camera? Use case, we have a newborn. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have an opinion about this. I suspect that Marco will disagree with me and John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m thinking, will agree with me. I think you should absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get a quote unquote real camera, especially if your iPhone or whatever you carry with you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is reasonably new. So let’s say, you know, no more than a year or two old.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the reason I say that is I was very hesitant about buying my Micro Four Thirds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey camera. I happen to have an Olympus OM-D E-M10. And I was very hesitant to buy it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and spend about as much for my prime lens as I did for the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey body, you know, the camera itself. And then I spent about as much again

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a zoom lens as I did for the other two things. I mean, I am, this was not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an insignificant amount of money, and I am so unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thankful and glad that I had spent the money on that camera because,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and again, I don’t have an iPhone XS, but I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how, even with the computational photography, how the new iPhones can get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most of my pictures to look as great as they do coming off of a camera with just way more glass.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so, you know, you can get a pretty decent fake bokeh, bokeh, whatever it is,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off of the iPhone, but you can’t get it to look like you can with just a lot of glass. And so, to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me, I think you buy a real camera. Marco, this is where you say I’m dead wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you should buy a Tennis.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, this is, it’s as hard as it’s ever been to answer this question, because, you know, every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year the iPhone camera gets better and better. And while it is not as good, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at most metrics in a camera than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a decent standalone camera. It is actually better in some of those metrics. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the big thing is, if you optimize for like, what is the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best picture you can shoot of your kit? You will be able to shoot the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pictures with the real camera. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you will shoot more good pictures with the phone than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you will with the camera. Because you’ll just have the phone with you a lot more. The phone will also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most likely take better video, if you care about that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is true, that is a good point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also a pretty common thing that people wanna do with photos of their kids is share them, and the phone makes that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a hell of a lot easier. And ultimately, the reality is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you will get more total picture quality, I guess,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of the phone than you will out of the camera because you will take more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good pictures with it. Because you’ll just be taking a lot more pictures with it, period. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it depends on what you’re optimizing for here. Obviously, the best solution is, if you can, get both.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that’s obviously not gonna be possible for everybody. So, take a real hard look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at, if you can’t get both, or maybe if you can’t like, you know, step

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back to the iPhone XR and apply that savings towards a camera.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Keeping in mind also that whatever you buy with the real camera setup will last you more than a year or two.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, like the iPhone’s gonna last you between one and three years, depending on how aggressively you tend to upgrade

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. You know, the camera’s gonna last longer than that. So keep that in mind when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco figuring like pricing and value and everything. But if you could only have one,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would probably say the phone. Because the camera is so good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s also, it matters what your skill level is, what your artistic sensibilities are. Do you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to get really into the camera stuff and get like a lot of different kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of lens focal lengths? Do you wanna be manually adjusting all the settings and everything? Do you wanna be post-processing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the pictures that you take? Do you want the pictures to look kind of okay as JPEGs, but maybe you wanna actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco edit the raw and pull out a lot of detail and things like that. If you wanna do that level of processing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and work and manual control and artistic variance, then by all means get the real camera.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’ll give you that control, and it’ll give you that headroom to do all that stuff. But if you’re mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just gonna shoot stuff like right out of the camera, and you wanna post it to Instagram or something,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the phone’s gonna do a better job of that. and also you’re always gonna have the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with you. So it’s really, it’s kind of an unfair comparison. It’s such a different beast, the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re always gonna have that. It’s always gonna be in your pocket, charged, ready to go. And the camera

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not. The camera is gonna be in bags or closets a lot of the time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you wish you had it with you. So I really would urge you, if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can find a way to get both a really great phone camera and a standalone camera, go for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you had to pick only one, obviously you’re not going to go without a phone, but if you had to pick

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only one, I would go with the phone.

⏹️ ▶️ John John. What was your prediction for me again? I forget.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think you’re going to side with me, but I think it’s going to be real close.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it’s close at all. I totally side with you, and I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey explain why. All

⏹️ ▶️ John right! Everything Margo said is true, except he forgot one major factor here, because we have a use case

⏹️ ▶️ John here. We have a newborn. You are incredibly motivated

⏹️ ▶️ John to take pictures and to carry a big camera with you when you have a kid.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the sort of missed opportunity, like the kid’s never going to

⏹️ ▶️ John be that size again. You want to get like the very best picture. So all the downsides of the camera

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s big, that it’s bulky, that it’s a pain to share you are very motivated to share those pictures. You are very motivated to go

⏹️ ▶️ John to your computer and offload those and edit them. are you are the most motivated you will ever be to deal with all

⏹️ ▶️ John the things that are disadvantages of a real camera and you will get better pictures of it and

⏹️ ▶️ John you will never have a chance to take a picture of your kid at these ages you can never go back when you get a

⏹️ ▶️ John better camera I look now like we bought our first digital camera before we had our son but you know

⏹️ ▶️ John he’s he’s in high school now so the pictures are terrible I wish I had because

⏹️ ▶️ John digital cameras were terrible and you know because we didn’t get like the world’s most expensive one, I wish I had had a better camera.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I would say in this particular situation, not like in general, like what should I buy? I’ve got $1,000. Should

⏹️ ▶️ John I buy the camera? But you have a newborn, spend the money on the big fancy camera. I take

⏹️ ▶️ John as many pictures as you can because you will be very motivated to do so. You will thank yourself later.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The other nice thing is newborns like real honest to goodness. Newborns don’t move that much

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so it gives you the chance to get used to taking pictures of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John what are effective before they start running around.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly. And I mean that genuinely because it is hard for me to get a good picture of Declan these days

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because he’s moving so darn much. Whereas, Michaela has gotten more mobile

⏹️ ▶️ Casey recently, but especially early on for both of them, it was relatively

⏹️ ▶️ Casey easy to capture a decent picture of them. And now with Declan, it’s very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hard. So, and that to some degree makes Marco’s point even stronger. But yeah, I still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think get yourself a decent camera with a decent lens, even just one prime lens

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is all you need. That’s all I had for like the first year or two that Declan was alive. And that’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really incredible.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the other thing I would suggest, regardless of what you do, you get a phone, is that Marcus was right also about the video. Like you should have something to

⏹️ ▶️ John shoot video that’s not your fancy camera, because iPhones will do better video than that, right? So hopefully somebody

⏹️ ▶️ John has a phone that does video. I think video is less important than it’d be like 4K 60 or whatever. Like just

⏹️ ▶️ John get some video, because sometimes you forget to take video and then you don’t get to hear their squeaky little voices and see how

⏹️ ▶️ John they moved and all this stuff. But anyway, the other thing I would suggest is if you can,

⏹️ ▶️ John get professional pictures taken at some milestone interval, because the

⏹️ ▶️ John professional picture taker is gonna have a better camera than you, and that actually does make a difference. So that even if

⏹️ ▶️ John the camera you get isn’t the best in the world, or maybe you just get the phone, you decide to just go with the phone, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John If you have like a one year old, a two year old, a three year old, a six month, like at some interval, pay

⏹️ ▶️ John somebody with a very, very expensive camera take decent pictures of your kids. So at least at

⏹️ ▶️ John the very least and then make prints of them and put them on your walls and you know do all that stuff at the very least you will have

⏹️ ▶️ John the best image capture possible at certain milestone ages

⏹️ ▶️ John for you know for posterity even if all the other pictures you have like mine like is you know my kids

⏹️ ▶️ John right my digital camera in 2004 was crap and the pictures from it are mostly crap

⏹️ ▶️ John but we paid a professional photographer to take you know formal portraits of you know six months old one year old. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the intervals slack off as the second child comes, as everybody knows. But yeah, but

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, having those is good. So it all doesn’t really highlight how bad my pictures were at those time. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m glad that we paid someone to take the pictures with the fans camera. It’s not that expensive. You just go to the mall and do it like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it’s not these days. Any professional with any decent camera

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to be way better than yours, and they’re going to look fantastic compared to your phone camera. And You can just

⏹️ ▶️ John go to the mall and get it done. not that expensive.

#askatp: Tags vs. filesystems

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, Benjamin Jacks writes, file systems make sense. There’s a trunk and you create branches

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of subdivision to make sense of your files. John, what are tags for?

⏹️ ▶️ John Benjamin, I’m going to blow your mind, or I’m going to try to. Oh, my word.

⏹️ ▶️ John Semantically, there is no difference between tags

⏹️ ▶️ John and quote-unquote file systems and directories. When

⏹️ ▶️ John you say this is in you know slash USR

⏹️ ▶️ John slash local user local right it’s like oh that’s a directory like you’re building this mental

⏹️ ▶️ John model of this tree of things in branching hallways but semantically

⏹️ ▶️ John when you look at the contents of that directory whether with the LS command or opening a finder window

⏹️ ▶️ John or any other way you can do it all you’re doing is showing all the files

⏹️ ▶️ John in the file system that have the tag directory is user

⏹️ ▶️ John local. Directories are just tags, like semantically.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you add more tags, you know, cool, updated recently,

⏹️ ▶️ John like just any other thing, you can ask for all the files that have the tag cool,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? It’s like, but wait, those aren’t in the same directory! Yeah, but the ones in that directory also don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John all have the tag cool. They’re just a different way to ask for files. The directories are just that. Now implementation

⏹️ ▶️ John wise most file systems are not implemented that way. Some of them are though. There is no

⏹️ ▶️ John distinction. So all tags are is giving it a different name for like what if instead of just

⏹️ ▶️ John having one tag for everything and that’s the way we always ask for them give me all the things

⏹️ ▶️ John with with a tag of user local give me all the things with a tag of slash user slash John. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of doing that, we have another thing you can put on it. You

⏹️ ▶️ John could have slash user slash John, but you can also have a tag that’s a color or a name or arbitrary text

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. And yes, you can ask for all the files that have that tag, or all

⏹️ ▶️ John the files that have a combination of tags. It’s just different ways of slicing and dicing the same day and none of them are any different

⏹️ ▶️ John from each other, except for the fact that we decide that a file can’t have well,

⏹️ ▶️ John not every, I was gonna say a file can’t have more than one directory tag but with hard links to files and hard links to directories

⏹️ ▶️ John and even that’s not true so you know you got to free your mind

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey directories are not are not

⏹️ ▶️ John semantically different than tags they’re actually all the same thing and once you realize that you will be enlightened

⏹️ ▶️ John and realize that it’s just giving you more ways to view the same data

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thanks to our sponsors this week casper squarespace and euro and we’ll see you next

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See you next week!

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even mean to begin, cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental. John didn’t do any research, Margo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Casey wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John let him,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cause it was accidental, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. It’s accidental. And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s Casey Liss, M-a-r-c-o-a-r-m, Auntie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Armin, s-i-r-a-c-u-s-a-c-r-a-c-u-s-a.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, tech podcast so long

Not Casey’s drone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, you appear to have sent us a photo or a video

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that includes a very high perspective of your house.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey So, it seems as though you have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey drone. Sort of. So, a listener and viewer,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can now say, was kind enough to send me for a short-term

⏹️ ▶️ Casey loan a DJI Mavic Pro. And he shipped this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me with like 305 spare batteries and And it even has like a VR headset

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing, which I haven’t tried yet, but a controller and everything else. And this listener, Eric V.,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was kind enough to not only ship it to me, but include a return label so I don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to pay to ship it back. So he has sent me his like $1,500. It’s amazing. He sent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me like this $1,500 drone or whatever it is. It doesn’t really matter how expensive it is. It’s a lot of money. What model is it? I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco curious.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The Mavic Pro, which I think is a little bit like a year or two old at this point, but it’s amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I’ll get to that in a second But yeah, not only did he ship me like the thing within a backpack which to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fair It was the backpack is obviously padding But anyway this thing with the backpack and the controller and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey extra batteries and the full-on VR headset and it cost like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah And he cost like 30 bucks to ship it to me But then he included a return label like I should have been paying him

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to ship Anyway, it was the nicest thing in the world. So Thank You Eric V I really appreciate it. But this is the first time I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever really used a drone and it again. It’s a Mavic Pro and And this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing is amazing. This might be the coolest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey piece of consumer technology, except maybe a smartphone that I’ve ever seen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The things that I can do as the world’s most ham-fisted and inexperienced drone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pilot are amazing. Like you plug in your phone to this little like holster

⏹️ ▶️ Casey below the controller and you tell the thing, take off now. And it says, okay, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey recorded where we started and I will take off and I will go to, I think it’s like a meter and a half or, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s six feet or I don’t know, something like that. It takes off and just hovers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and just chills. And when you wanna move it, you move one of the sticks and it moves. And you move the other stick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it twists or goes up or down or whatever the case may be. It is extremely fast. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I was watching a video of it and apparently it will track a car. I haven’t tried this myself, but it will track a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey car. and I have tried it tracks toddlers because Declan and I went to a local park this morning

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and we were in the middle of like this big open area with, you know, soccer like three or four soccer fields.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nobody was there because it was, you know, 10 o’clock in the morning on a weekday and I had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it target Declan

⏹️ ▶️ John and. Daddy, no, the spinning blades.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Target Declan. That doesn’t sound good. You know what I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco mean?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I mean? I had it track Declan and as he’s walking around and running,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s tracking him no problem. This is the coolest thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the world. And I’m not trying to say that this is the best drone that’s ever existed. I know there are much newer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ones. I am not trying to make a declaration about DJI better being better than anyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else. Although it seems like they are from everything I can tell. Yeah, they are just as someone who has never had or even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey piloted a drone briefly before. This is the coolest thing in the entire world. And all I want to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do is go out and play with it. That That being said, it is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the most conspicuous device I have ever used.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’ve had an occasion to fly a drone and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco immediate things that you notice about it are A. It’s insanely loud, B.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everyone around you knows it’s a drone, and C. Most people are very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco annoyed or offended by drones.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, all of these things seem to be true. And when I was at the park, like everyone was giving me a copious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey amount of side eye, but nobody seemed to be genuinely perturbed that I was there. But I’ve flown

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it like above the house and I’m waiting for the next door post that Merlin loves to bring up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And where somebody has been buzzing my, now to be fair, I’ve been just basically circling my own

⏹️ ▶️ Casey house, but I’m waiting for, somebody’s been buzzing my house with a drone and they’re trying to spy on me and I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what’s going on and I’ve called the cops. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco it’s going to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John People hate drones.

⏹️ ▶️ John They hate them. And you can’t, can you blame them? Like I know you did that video of you, the thing going up over your house,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you can also see the neighbor’s houses once you get to that height. Like you can’t help it. It’s, you are accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John filming the neighbor’s yards. And if they’re out there sunbathing naked, they’re like, great, I don’t really appreciate the drone going

⏹️ ▶️ John up over

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the… Totally. And I mean, it does make sense, but the funny thing about it is, to go back to our camera conversation, if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really and truly wanted to like spy on somebody, I would be much better off,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, Going up to them with my telephoto, you know, like zoom lens on my big camera

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then with the drone like I was purposely flying up near my own house when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Declan was in his bedroom and It was hard to see him and this is a really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice drone that shoots 4k video It was hard to see him through the window and then at one point I was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey flying up to the kitchen window and Aaron was like making dinner or whatever and I couldn’t see her at all because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the reflection in the window I’m not saying that you can’t spy on a person with a drone and certainly outside all bets are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off but if you like we’re trying to Quietly sneak up on somebody that is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey impossible with a drone because just like Marco said they’re louder than hell and Either way the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only way that you’re gonna get a decent shot of this person is if they have windows that are mammoth

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or It’s outside But the all of that aside It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is so Frickin cool. It is so cool. And at one point I was like flying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up toward myself and I was above my own head, like I was a solid foot or two above my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey head and, but I was kind of buzzing myself if you will. And it got within, I don’t know, three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or four feet of me. And all of a sudden the thing pitches back real hard and stops dead. And I looked down at the controller

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and. And I, it says something like obstacle or something like that. And what happened was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it just didn’t want to get that close to me, which was super cool. And I haven’t yet crashed it, although

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Declan grabbed the stick at one point and got me really, really close.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But this thing is so cool. And I know that this is very old news and I know this is another example of me or us coming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey upon technology that’s been around for a long time. But wow, what an awesome device. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could see this being extremely cool for my car videos, but there’s a couple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of problems associated with that. One, I’m not sure if that would classify as commercial use, which creates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a whole crud load of red tape that I really don’t want to have to go through. And two,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t really know where I could do it because I would want to do it on like a road or something, but that’s deeply

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dangerous and unwise, whether or not it’s legal. Like I don’t know if the letter of the law says it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey legal, but even if it is, I wouldn’t really be comfortable with it. So I don’t—again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey leaving aside all the red tape stuff, I want to try this on the next video,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but darned if I know the mechanism by which I can do that, you know what I mean? but super

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The biggest challenge with drones is like they’re super cool if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have somewhere to use them where there’s nobody around for miles and you could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like drive your car on the private road like that would be awesome but that’s not the reality of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you live and where you’re going to be operating this like the reality is you’re probably going to run into problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you try that and and yeah like ultimately like there is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a valid question to ask like what what should you use the drone for like what value

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does it have and I think there are a lot of values that can have like basically in like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco removing the need or reducing the need for like fancy dollies and stuff or other ways

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get like you know smooth panning shots or looking you know shooting around

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a circle view of the car like there are lots of things you could do I don’t think having it follow you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco while you are driving is a good idea. You could try it. I don’t think that’s a good idea. I certainly wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try it with someone else’s drone. But that, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I think as as you have probably found flying a drone well takes a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ Marco percent of somebody’s attention. So like, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey god yes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah absolutely. You you’re gonna need a second person to be involved for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know like you can’t you can’t have it just you can’t say like oh follow this car and then you just get in the car alone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it just follows you. That’s not going to happen. They have ones that do that. Well, no, this will do that. It’s not going to—it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t do that, like, totally unattended in most environments.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, so, sort of. Your point is more right than you are wrong, but not exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, you’re saying this, I think, from the perspective of somebody who lives in a fairly urban area. And having been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to your home, that’s—your neighborhood is not unlike my neighborhood, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the difference between us is that I can get to relatively rural places very quickly. I’m thinking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more along the lines of my understanding of where Tiff’s parents live. Yeah. Where there is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the space and the lack of activity for me to probably be able to do this on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a road in a situation where it really wouldn’t be dangerous. But the problem I have with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is the most obvious and clear example to me is my mother-in-law’s house, which is only about 20 minutes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from where I live. But unfortunately it is just barely within five

⏹️ ▶️ Casey miles of a little teeny tiny, like Cessna airport, like not even a regional airport, but you know what I’m talking about? Like the little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey local Yokel airport. And because of that, it means if I’m, again, going to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey follow the letter of the law, I would need to phone the airport every time I fly the drone in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey order to say, hey, is it cool if I’m flying 4.9 miles from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your tower? Because strictly speaking, if I understand the rules correctly, at least in America, if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey within five miles of any airport, even a little tiny one that does little Cessnas and nothing else, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey still need to call to call the tower and tell them what’s going on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, this is it’s just like there are so many problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and challenges of using drones like this that I can’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it being worth it for that. Like, I can’t see it being worth the hassle. Like, they’re a cool toy to play with.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re really cool. And they are really super impressive. Like, well, like the modern DJI ones can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do like they’re super impressive, but it is so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they conflict so badly with reality in so many ways,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially if you care at all about what other people might think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of you or really angering other people or getting the police called on you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or having you know, there’s so many downsides to it is all of that worth getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a couple of shots that you could also get with a gimbal pretty well like Because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, we don’t need to see the car from space. Like, you know, for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey the most part, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could just you could replace the entire drone. You could replace it with a person holding a camera

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and panning it on a tripod or walking around with a gimbal. I feel like this is this is it’s a tool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is better used probably by larger and more specialized types of production

⏹️ ▶️ Marco staffs for your use making car videos mostly by yourself.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think it’s a good idea. I think it would be way more trouble than it’s worth And I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you would end up getting not that much footage out of it for the amount of money you would spend on it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think that’s the thing is that yeah I have not looked at how expensive this drone is but I think it was over a thousand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dollars and certainly once you add like Couple extra batteries and this and then the other thing and not to say that I would have to get a Mavic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro You know, I forget what the little tiny one is that DJI makes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean there it’s a good value for what it is is, but it’s such a specialized tool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it comes with such massive costs and downsides to use that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think it’s what you need right now for the kind of stuff that you do. I think it would be a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fun toy to play with, which you know now because you are playing with a fun. It’s kind of like your Wrangler

⏹️ ▶️ Marco phase. Like it’s a fun toy to play with, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you probably have already found if not you will find that to actually own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is probably not a good idea for you for you for what you’re doing because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again like it needs it needs an environment you don’t live in and it needs like an operator

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and you tend to shoot most of your stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey alone yeah and that’s the thing like I would what I would want to do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is get footage on a a road and it may be like the little access

⏹️ ▶️ Casey road on the way to my old office, which is a road that has a couple of turns, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really it’s just like almost, it’s one of those situations where it’s almost like a parking lot access, you know what I mean?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like, the only reason you go on this road is to go into one of the several parking lots off of it. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I could go there on like a weekend or something like that when there’s almost

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no traffic because it’s nothing but business built, you know, office buildings back there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I could probably have it track me, you know, because if I just get over, you know, over the trees,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey vertically speaking, if I just get it over the trees and tell it track the car, this road

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is like a quarter mile long. It has a couple of turns in it. That’s all I would need. I think it would be enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the thing that actually turns me off, there’s two things that deeply turn me off about it. Number one,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in order to do that, I would need to have a drone, which is, you know, $1,500 or $1,000, something like that, which is,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, not a great return on investment to your point, Marco. And number two, if I really wanted to do this properly, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think even though I’ve made, I actually have not received any money from YouTube, but hypothetically,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey YouTube owes me like 30 bucks. So I think strictly speaking, this is commercial,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which means I need to go through like this apparently reasonably involved licensure process.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so it’s just it’s not I don’t think that juice is going to be worth the squeeze, even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey though oh my God, I want it so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But again, I think ultimately, you are, you should only be looking at stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this, a if you’re, you know, a bigger production, but be if you have someone dedicated to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco operating it, this is going to solve some problems for you that you wouldn’t have if you just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had a second person operating a camera on a tripod, or if you had a second driver, like I noticed Aaron was in the your last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco video for like two seconds doing one driving shot because I guess you were operating the camera exactly if you just do that more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you can just if you have somebody operating a camera while someone else drives the car

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that solves a lot of your problem for you and with at no cost using the stuff you already have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the way also a little thing about drones they can’t include audio because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all you would hear would be their propellers so you have to also have audio separate and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t be recording the audio from what the drone is seeing, even if you use an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco external microphone, like down on the ground, because it’ll just hear the drone. Like, these are so loud. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unless the drone’s like 500 feet in the air, right? So, like, it’s such a specialized tool. And it is such

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a cool toy to play with. And so it’s easy to say, like, yeah, they’re wonderful. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re, you know, buy one, they’re so much fun. But I bet a lot of people have drones sitting in boxes and closets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not being used because it turns out they’re a pain in the ass to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use. So yeah, if it wasn’t for the car videos, there is zero doubt in my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mind I would spend a whole pile of money on one, use it like twice, and just like you said, it would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just collect dust until the end of time. The car videos are what makes me wonder, is it possibly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey worth it? It’s not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco However—

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Step one, get a second person to just hold an iPhone and turn it on a tripod as you drive by.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Exactly. No, you’re very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right. That’s step one, and you can already do that today. And if you really can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco find another person to help you out that often, you shouldn’t get a drone because you will need another person to help you out that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco often to operate that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey drone. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I completely agree with you. That’s more boring than a drone shot. I mean, it’s not a replacement for a tripod. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the drone, look, it’s not that much more expensive than an iPhone. If you just got it because it’s a fun thing to have,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a perfectly good reason to get it. Like say this is gonna be just a hobby thing. Even if you’re not making car videos, you just want a drone because they’re cool

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re fun to have and you wanna take it on vacation and fly low over the waves at your beach house and make a cool video,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, whatever. Like, I think that’s fine, but like, eventually, for the car videos, like it’s silly obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John now, but you could graduate to it. You could get those four magic words that I know you aspire to, Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ John Professional driver, closed course. Go to a race

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey car, a racetrack, drive the car on the racetrack

⏹️ ▶️ John and have someone fly the drone over you as you drive around the corners of the racetrack. Every car show

⏹️ ▶️ John does that, right? You get, in theory, you get clearance from the track say I’m gonna drive on your

⏹️ ▶️ John track I’m gonna rent it for the day I’m gonna fly a drone they’re like go ahead close course do whatever you want and

⏹️ ▶️ John that shot is always there and you don’t need audio because it’s the part where the music’s playing and you’re doing a voiceover and you’re talking about the car

⏹️ ▶️ John and the drone comes in and flies down over the car as it races around the racetrack that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a thing that you could do with technology and budget you have available it’s not gonna make your video that much

⏹️ ▶️ John better that you’re gonna make that money back for sure but it’s really cool like I feel like the drone

⏹️ ▶️ John If you want a drone, you should get it because you’re going to do fun things with a drone and it’s like a hobby. Like the same reason

⏹️ ▶️ John you get like, you know, just something fun to play with. Like I don’t know if it would be worth it for me to play with, but if

⏹️ ▶️ John you like, I think you could get a thousand dollars of fun out of a drone over the course

⏹️ ▶️ John of a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey year

⏹️ ▶️ John and maybe after a year you get bored or whatever. No, you can’t fly around your neighborhood and all your neighbors. But if you’re ever going on vacation

⏹️ ▶️ John or you’re going to someone’s house who owns acres of land or you’re going somewhere where there aren’t a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John people and you just want to to get take cool videos that you’re never going to upload to anybody. You’re just going to have them for yourself because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re cool. That’s one of the things you can do with technology, right? You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not forget about fun, but for the car stuff, uh, yeah, you do need a

⏹️ ▶️ John crew. You do need to renting. The race course is going to be a lot more expensive than the drone, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But that is a shot that everybody does. And that’s the difference between that and a tripod because no one on a tripod can fly

⏹️ ▶️ John over you as you go around a racetrack, right? That’s the shots that you can only get with the drone.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they’re very popular. Like, it’s really used to be that you can only get that shop with a helicopter in the 80s. We call them helicopter shots.

⏹️ ▶️ John But now when I watch them, I realize sometimes you know, it’s not a helicopter, right? Like, you know, no one’s get and

⏹️ ▶️ John renting a helicopter for this. It’s just some person with a drone controlling it with their phone, but it looks just as good as a helicopter shot.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t know. It’s kind of I always find it fascinating that you can get those shots and people who just take the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing like we see some friends on Instagram do this. They take a vacation to take to the beach. They go up over the

⏹️ ▶️ John hills, they skim down along the beach, they go over the water. They look awesome. Like there’s no point to

⏹️ ▶️ John it other than, hey, look at this awesome video.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And then eventually, you know, it crashes

⏹️ ▶️ John into the waves and you lose your thousand dollar thing in the water and you feel sad. But that’s like it’s part of the experience. Like a remote control

⏹️ ▶️ John airplane. People don’t buy remote control airplanes because they think they’re going to help them make better car

⏹️ ▶️ John video. They’re just like because they’re a fun thing to fly and they cost a lot and they’re hard to much harder

⏹️ ▶️ John to deal with and control than a drone. And eventually they crash and all your money is gone. It’s all part of the experience.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, get it if this is gonna be a hobby for you, like a fun thing to play with on a hobby.

⏹️ ▶️ John For the car videos, eh, maybe. Like we can all see the shot, right? The one over you driving

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey on a race course. We can all

⏹️ ▶️ John see it on our head. Someday, someday I feel like you could pull off that shot. Maybe you don’t buy one, maybe you rent one, maybe you

⏹️ ▶️ John get a friend who’s gonna control the thing, who brings their drone and they fly it, so if it crashes it’s not your fault, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And they fly over you when you rent the race course, right? I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, it’s serious when of all the people in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey world, it is Marco telling me not to spend money because Marco’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey profession at this point is basically to get all of his friends to spend

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John obscene amounts of money. He did try to tell the person to get the phone and the real camera. So, I feel like he met his quota for the episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but I mean, if Marco is the one saying, no, Casey, don’t buy the drone, then you know I really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shouldn’t be buying this damn thing

⏹️ ▶️ John because… But Marco would still buy the drone. I did buy the drone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, you have one?