Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

279: You’ll Hate What I’m Actually Doing

International data plans, the final beach setup, wrapping up WWDC news, and the debut of Accidental Test Kitchen.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Accidental Test Kitchen 🖼️
  2. International data roaming
  3. APFS cloning
  4. Follow-up: Notarized apps
  5. Follow-up: APFS cloning
  6. Beach computer
  7. Sponsor: AfterShokz (code atp30)
  8. Unsigned Safari extensions
  9. ATP in WWDC session 🖼️
  10. Memoji are ungendered
  11. Gifts for 1Password
  12. Can’t compile 32-bit apps
  13. MS, Adobe to join MAS
  14. Sponsor: RXBAR (code ATP)
  15. eGPUs
  16. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  17. #askatp: Teens to avoid iOS 12?
  18. A brief laptop distraction
  19. #askatp: Kindle?
  20. #askatp: If Apple bought Bungie
  21. Ending theme
  22. Neutral: Wrangler

Accidental Test Kitchen

Chapter Accidental Test Kitchen image.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now we’re cooking with gas. Now we’re cooking with electricity. That’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco electricity is like the cooler fuel form now because we realize it can be fast. Not for cooking.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Induction? Hello?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve never seen induction be any quicker than a gas stove or range but whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You haven’t seen it

⏹️ ▶️ John boil water. Electric are faster boiling water than the gas. Gas is the slowest at boiling water.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The f*** are you talking about?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Well it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco depends on the gas and depends on the pots. It’s the truth. I mean yeah because the problem is that a whole lot of the heat escapes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the sides of gas burners. Um, and a lot of gas burners are very small,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but if you have like the big beefy ones, um, like the high end stoves do, and if you have a big enough pot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and a shallow enough amount of water in it, then that could, it could be faster. But induction I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco beats them all.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Induction is the fastest, but the reason electrics, uh, it goes so fast as they have really good contact patch

⏹️ ▶️ John to use car terminology between like, there’s not, the heat goes directly from the heating element

⏹️ ▶️ John into the pot and not a lot wasted and they can have very large elements that heat across

⏹️ ▶️ John the entire surface. So they can be really fast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t speak for boiling water, but we had gas, we have gas at our house and we had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey electric in a lot of my childhood homes. That’s old electric.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Crappy electric.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the, and the, uh, the apartments I had before the house and they were all straight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey trash. Now I’ve not tried induction to be fair. So I can’t speak one way for or against induction,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but just regular electric was awful. It took a friggin calendar year to boil

⏹️ ▶️ Casey water with those.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the induction is like the ultimate electric in that the contact patch is much larger and essentially virtual

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s, you know, inducing the heat in the thing through, you know, electromagnetic

⏹️ ▶️ John waves and all the other stuff. So it’s not even like you have to have a bunch of it touching that it can, you know, so it’s induction

⏹️ ▶️ John is always going to win. But electric electric is pretty amazing. Of course, the reason people don’t like electric is because

⏹️ ▶️ John you get carryover heat and you don’t have that with gas. So gas is still a better chef’s stove.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think doesn’t doesn’t induction also fix that. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John I it depends on the surface. I think you have one of these stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John you can tell me, but like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco considering one. That’s why I’m like I’m asking a bunch of questions because you know next time a stove

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dies, I want to probably replace it with induction, but I’ve never used one. So like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I know people say you can just buy one of those like induction like single burner standalone things to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco experiment with it, which is I should really do, but I haven’t. So I kind of want to know like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s the major downside of induction besides that it doesn’t work with copper pans, which I don’t own any anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the pot limits are a little bit weird and the carrier over here I think is still going to be worse than gas because

⏹️ ▶️ John the contact palette once you turn off the gas, the only thing that is hot that is touching the pan is like the grading, which has

⏹️ ▶️ John a very small surface area of like how much is it touching the pot, right? So that’s your only remaining heat transfer.

⏹️ ▶️ John So basically you turn all the heat off except for like those little pattern of stuff that’s touching it. Whereas with induction,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like the surface of the stove gets hot, but the pan is hot and the pan is sitting on the stove. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John it depends on how much heat is absorbed by and retained by the surface of the induction.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if the surface is usually some kind of glass or easy to clean thing, that does hold a lot of heat. And

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s still, that will still hold a lot of heat even when you turn off the induction. So now

⏹️ ▶️ John your hot pan is sitting on top of a probably equally hot glass surface that is not going to cool

⏹️ ▶️ John off as fast as the instant off on a gas thing. It depends if you make anything where you need

⏹️ ▶️ John to be able to instantly turn off the heater otherwise a sauce is going to break or something. But anyway, that’s why chefs still

⏹️ ▶️ John prefer gas because your control of the heat is more or less absolute and once you

⏹️ ▶️ John turn off the heat your pan is not sitting next to another hot thing that is continuing to heat it. But

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, I’ve still been a little bit wary of induction just because I don’t want to have to worry about

⏹️ ▶️ John what the pans are. I’m pretty committed to my modern electric lifestyle. If I had to get a new stove, I would probably

⏹️ ▶️ John get another electric one. And also, gas ovens are garbage. So if you have a gas stove,

⏹️ ▶️ John you want an electric oven anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think it’s like, whatever the heat capacity of the glass surface

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on an induction stove, do you think that’s meaningfully more for carryover heat purposes than the heat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the pan itself?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, because what you want is for the pan to start shedding its heat, right? So if the only thing

⏹️ ▶️ John underneath it is air and the metal grating, that’s a great place for it to shed the heat off of. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John no more heat coming into it from below. Whereas if the metal pan is against that surface, even if there

⏹️ ▶️ John was no heat on that surface, it can’t shed heat into, it’s already been shedding heat into that. They’re at equilibrium

⏹️ ▶️ John probably at this point between the pan and the surface, and the pan is making the surface hot. So it

⏹️ ▶️ John loses that heat shedding there, Whereas if it’s suspended in the air over an off gas burner, they’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it really depends. Like, do you care about that? Do you make anything where you have to have precise control of the heat?

⏹️ ▶️ John Otherwise bad things will happen to it. If you don’t, then you probably don’t care about carryover heat. It’s just for the chefs again, but

⏹️ ▶️ John making something very delicate, like a sauce that you need to have precise control. You need to turn out when you turn off the heat, you want

⏹️ ▶️ John it to be off off and for restaurants where again, when you turn off the heat, you don’t have to worry about it, you know, carrying

⏹️ ▶️ John over going, you know, continuing to cook a little bit off means off.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I suppose what you really want then is if you if you aren’t using literally all of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the space in the cooktop, what you really want is that flat surface to move the pan onto for cooling purposes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but to just move it move it onto a cool spot on the stove.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or they could have like induction surfaces that move away from the thing and you know disconnect the surface connection like it would

⏹️ ▶️ John actually I don’t know they could do something like that, but it’s probably silly. But yeah, my my stove top is a glass

⏹️ ▶️ John surface completely continuous glass surface and that is so great for cleaning that the benefits for regular people

⏹️ ▶️ John probably far outweighs worrying about carryover.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, honestly, like, you know, we I only have gas. I have gas here. We have electric at the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco beach and the beach has one of those flat tops because it’s like a relative, you know, it’s made

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s probably 10 years old, but it’s relatively modern stow that has flat top available. And then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here we just have like a giant gas thing that the previous owners bought that has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mostly been OK, but it requires a lot of maintenance because it’s a fancy brand and I’m very glad I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey it. Oh, like my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey BMW.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. Actually, it’s the Casey’s BMW of stoves. It’s just as reliable too. Yeah, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is. Yeah. It needs like new burners and igniters almost every, I think every three or four years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so far. But like, you know, it’s typical, you know, gas with these big cast iron grates sitting on top of each burner

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the burner itself, it’s like four different semi-loose parts that are just kind of resting on each other. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a pain in the butt to keep clean. There’s many surfaces and you and you gotta wait till it cools

⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally off and take the grate off and then clean the grate of course and then also clean was under the grate and it gets everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s it’s a mess and then like when you have like those wonderful flat surfaces on the electric ones you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like wait till it’s cool and just spray it and wipe it off it’s glorious

⏹️ ▶️ John the best thing about the the flat glass cooktops is they sell they sell like cleaner like this mildly abrasive

⏹️ ▶️ John toothpaste dish kind of cleaner specifically made for glass cooktops and you can like we’ve had ours

⏹️ ▶️ John not since we were married but for many years, at least like 15 years or whatever, you can get the thing looking

⏹️ ▶️ John like brand new with that cleaner. Like it doesn’t matter how old it is. I don’t know how much have you got caked onto it because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s glass. No matter how gross it looks, you’re like, that thing is totally destroyed. It’s never going to look good again.

⏹️ ▶️ John You use that glass cooktop cleaner, do a little bit of scrubbing and you look at it and like, that looks like it came from

⏹️ ▶️ John the factory today. That’s awesome. It’s like it goes back to brand new. It’s, it’s, it’s pretty amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, unfortunately the rest of the thing doesn’t like we have somehow dropped heavy things onto like the edges

⏹️ ▶️ John of the thing and like chipped off the edges of not the surface but like the the metal like the

⏹️ ▶️ John enamel paint yeah like the whole like the whole rest of the thing you can damage but the glass

⏹️ ▶️ John is basically impenetrable I’m pretty amazed by it.

International data roaming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, what are you guys doing for data when you’re overseas?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We do… Are you on AT&T? Mm-hmm. They have that international day pass thing. We do that. Wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t see… I was just looking at this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They added it a couple of… I think a year ago or two years ago. It’s a thing where you can just use your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco home plan when you’re roaming internationally for something… It’s either $10 or $20. I think it’s $10 per day.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s automatic. What? Like it automatically just knows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you’re not, when you’re traveling, like it just figures that out. So you just literally just use your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone. You change nothing. Like you just go to another country, and for every day that you’re in another country, you get charged 10

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bucks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s zero, okay, yeah, yeah. Zero per month, $10 per device per day. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just leave that enabled all the time now. Like I used to have to like add the data pack and then cancel it when I got back. It was a pain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the ass.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, yeah. Yeah, they came out with that like maybe a year or two ago, and it’s fantastic. This is one of those things like Europeans

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have kicked our butts on this and they had these plans like 50 years ago when they were all using Opera. But we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are very new to this as us like, you know, lowly American cell phone networks with our horrible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco monopolies and everything. So yeah. And so people in the chat are saying apparently Verizon has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a similar thing. So yeah, this by far like I used to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always bring in like an unlocked phone and try to buy international SIM.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s what I was looking at is, you know, I was talking to Jason Snell in the relay chat earlier and he was saying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the three, which is one of the carriers over there in the UK, three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey offers for about $20 US dollars or thereabouts, $20 to $30 US dollars. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can get something like 10 gigs. It’s not exactly right, but it’s something along the lines of 10 gigs and 3,000 minutes and 3,000

⏹️ ▶️ Casey domestic texts and that lasts for like a month.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so to your point, Marco, you would have to have an unlocked phone, which we tend to to buy our phones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey outright, so that’s not a problem for us. But you need to have an unlocked phone and you need to switch phone numbers,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and this becomes ugly if, say, you have grandparents that are watching your children and they don’t wanna have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to use Google Allo because they’re Android users, or they don’t wanna have to rely on iMessaging

⏹️ ▶️ Casey specifically your email address, because I think if you were to iMessage the phone number, then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it wouldn’t work, you know, because your phone number changes when you put the new SIM in, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just- Or they start an iMessage thread unknowingly with your international phone number,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then when you get home it doesn’t work anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like, I’ve done all these options before, and you can do the math, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re staying more than five days or something, it probably makes sense to get a local SIM

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re concerned only about that price. But for me, I’m actually willing to pay a little bit extra to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A, not have to worry about any kind of cap or transfer or unlocking or anything, and B,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to just be able to keep my number and have my phone, and literally have to do nothing to my phone. I don’t have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rely on anything weirdly working differently, I don’t have to break iMessage for anything. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally just is my regular number, working the regular way, and I pay 10 bucks a day for it. That to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me is worth a premium price, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I’m saying this for a month, that might be a different story, but I don’t do that. So yeah, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going somewhere for a few days to a week. No question I do the day pass because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s so nice to just have your plan. Even if it isn’t the absolute cheapest option,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s so nice to just have it. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hi, John.

⏹️ ▶️ John Hello.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Take your time.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t get cell plans when I go to the UK.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, you didn’t even have a cell phone until like last month. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just use Wi-Fi.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, all right. Well, that was super productive for me, and I don’t care if anyone else is bored by this because that was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really freaking useful for me.

APFS cloning

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we’ll start with Russ Bishop, who writes that the simulator cloning that we had talked about last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week, this is where you can do… Was it for unit testing or UI testing, I believe?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s exactly for UI testing in parallel.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. So Xcode will spin up a whole bunch of parallel instances of the iOS simulator to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do a whole bunch of different UI tests all simultaneously.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And somebody had pontificated, I don’t remember if it was a listener or if it was John, I I think it was a listener pontificated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, hey, maybe that uses the super fast APFS cloning feature

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so that it will spin up all these duplicates of the simulator really, really, really quickly. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Russ Bishop writes that simulator cloning does use APFS cloning. Everything is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using, or everything that uses NSFileManager or libcopyfile with copyfile clone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is apparently a parameter or some such, will end up using APFS cloning whether it intended to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or not. John as the resident file system expert in chief. Any other thoughts on that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Nope, just good to see confirmation. I think the person who sent to this works at Apple, so I trust what they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have some follow up about that as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I’m sorry, Marco. My

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco apologies. Please continue.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Normally, I don’t have a lot of file system news. But I actually like so we are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cleaning up tips computer. She wants to basically do like a like a clean reinstall for the first time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think ever. And she He has a whole bunch of photos and we are pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure that a lot of them are actually duplicated in multiple locations and everything. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a very hard problem to solve. Honestly, if anybody knows like a really good, very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reliable utility, we’re going to be very conservative on this, but if you know a very good utility to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco find duplicate files in a reasonable way and try to manage them in a reasonable way without risking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deleting the real copies, please let me know. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one thing I was hoping that APFS would do, which I think ZFS does,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is data deduplication as it like with regular file operations

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or with files just existing there. So like ideally, if we migrate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco her disk onto an APFS volume, I would like it to kind of automatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco detect duplicates as the data is being imported onto the volume and not take

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up double space that would be nice. Unfortunately I did some some experimenting and that doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happen and I was also disappointed to find out that even things like the Linux CP command

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t do cloning like they actually just make duplicated data and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I so I hope they go a little bit further with this feature of APFS because it would totally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco remove the problem of like yeah I you know there are there are these photos in multiple paths

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but if if it’s an APFS clone, you can have as many paths as you want. It doesn’t matter at all. Like the problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would just disappear if that was the case. But hopefully, there will be some easy way for us to deal with this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But until then, I was kind of sad that APFS didn’t go a little bit deeper with that cloning thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John It doesn’t have the doping built in. But you can you can build that feature yourself just brute force it right, just write a little program

⏹️ ▶️ John that goes over all your files. The tricky part is the stuff that’s not the data, but

⏹️ ▶️ John the extended attributes and everything you’d have to decide if you’re writing that brute force and utility how much you care about

⏹️ ▶️ John the extended attributes. So if you find two files where the data is the same but the extended attributes or any other attributes

⏹️ ▶️ John differ, do you care or do you want to, you know, merge them essentially into one

⏹️ ▶️ John thing? If you care you have to leave them separate because I don’t think there’s a way to separate the data and the metadata.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t say, well, the data is a clone but the metadata is not. I think you can’t do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you know, if it was just photos and you didn’t care about the metadata or the dates or anything that you could combine

⏹️ ▶️ John them. And the deduping stuff, ZFS does that, lots of other file systems do

⏹️ ▶️ John that, but it is very CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John intensive. It slows things down tremendously if it was sort of on all the time. I think Time Machine

⏹️ ▶️ John does, well, I don’t remember if they did anything related

⏹️ ▶️ John to that. I mean, it does the hard linking to directories, which is essentially the very

⏹️ ▶️ John weak version of of deduping on an entire file level. And that’s where they’re actually

⏹️ ▶️ John connected to each other. What you want is for it to take up half the storage, but for them to still be two totally independent files.

⏹️ ▶️ John And AVFS can do that, it just won’t do it for you. I seem to recall there was some feature, not

⏹️ ▶️ John just the finder’s duplication that they demo, but some feature of the new OSes that takes advantage of that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And as for the CP command, CP command, my recollection is, used to

⏹️ ▶️ John not understand a bunch of Mac-specific metadata, but eventually they enhanced it to

⏹️ ▶️ John support the Mac specific metadata and extended attributes, sometimes requiring a flag.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can imagine them extending it if it’s not already there, check the man Patriot CP to support smart cloning,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I can also understand why they might not have that be the default just because

⏹️ ▶️ John of the you know, you know, we wanted to throw this before how the free space math gets way

⏹️ ▶️ John too complicated for you to hold in your brain when you’re like you know i just copied a twenty gig file

⏹️ ▶️ John and my free space is the same you know

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco what

⏹️ ▶️ John is what is going on how do i ever tell how much free space i have it becomes very difficult so

⏹️ ▶️ John i can see some reason to default to the dumb way just uh… have

⏹️ ▶️ John things make more sense to people.

Follow-up: Notarized apps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on to notarized apps, we talked about this last week where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple will presume, I think they said they will eventually compel all apps to be notarized. Is that what you concluded? I forget

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the details now. But one way or another, notarized apps is a next level thing beyond

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just developer signing. And a friend of the show, Daniel Jalka, wrote in to say that the developer ID signing,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which we had talked about is the current state of the world, is almost 100% independent from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple once you have the certificate. But it’s worth noting that that by default, CodeSign still consults

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple’s timestamp server to reliably embed a time in the code signature. So if Apple’s server

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is down, the regular developer ID code signing can fail. And so there’s apparently an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey option, dash dash timestamp equals none, that Daniel uses in his debug builds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and CI builds to prevent that signing from happening or that confirmation with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple from happening. And then also, a friend of the show, Gus Mueller, writes in that he also

⏹️ ▶️ Casey turns off the timestamp because of server issues on Apple side years ago.

⏹️ ▶️ John That doesn’t bode well for a notarized thing. The fact that Apple has some very minor server side

⏹️ ▶️ John component to the current system, and that two random developers we happen to know

⏹️ ▶️ John turn it off to avoid issues with our actually wait, did Jocko say he turns it

⏹️ ▶️ John off? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, that’s that server is surely much more simple

⏹️ ▶️ John than the notarized server is and it’s just like that’s what it takes it doesn’t mean that it’s unreliable it’s a problem

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever it just means that if you’re trying to do something and something interrupts your workflow and you

⏹️ ▶️ John it annoys you and you can’t figure out what it is you track it down it turns out that one of Apple services being wonky

⏹️ ▶️ John just turning it off and never thinking about it again is often the reaction especially if you’re frustrated that you spend

⏹️ ▶️ John a while trying to debug it and you never check if like well that was three years ago maybe the timestamp server is up 100%

⏹️ ▶️ John of the time now maybe it’s lightning fast I’ll never know because it annoyed me that one time and I turned it off Obviously, with

⏹️ ▶️ John notarized apps, you won’t have that option, I suppose. But hopefully, Apple is so much better at doing server-side

⏹️ ▶️ John services these days than they used to be. This won’t be a problem with notarized apps, right, guys?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you know, all these scripts that they have, like the Mac developers have, like Daniel and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Gus, to automate builds and releases, I think these are all going to break with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notarization because it’s an asynchronous process. As I mentioned during our first discussion of it, they have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco submit the binary to this notarization server. And from my understanding, it’s just like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS processing step in iTunes, excuse me, in App Store Connect now. You have to submit it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’ll take maybe a half hour to an hour to actually get done

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then they give it back to you. I assume they make it available through some kind of download either manually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and or through an API. But that, you know, because it’s this asynchronous process that you just kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to wait for that could take an indeterminate amount of time, that’s going to break a lot of automated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco build scripts and a lot of people’s processes.

Follow-up: APFS cloning

⏹️ ▶️ John By the way, real-time follow-up, someone in the chatroom threw out cp-c as

⏹️ ▶️ John the flag to throw to the cp command to make it do clones. I was trying to test it on an APFS

⏹️ ▶️ John volume while we’re sitting here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, hold on. You say minus for command line arguments? Is that how you always say that? Like in your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco head or out loud? Yeah, sure. Cp-c, not dash?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John You could say dash or dash minus,

⏹️ ▶️ John but yeah, minus is definitely one of the things I say because that’s the key.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My God, we’ve been podcasting for over five years. How did I not know this about you? That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not just me. Not just me, that’s a common thing to say. Is it though? I mean, it

⏹️ ▶️ John is the minus key on the keyboard. Like, that is what it’s called. It’s not like I’m making up a funny name for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the hyphen key. It’s that too. You know, unless you want to be typographically correct. Anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Let’s talk about tabs and spaces. Yeah, minus C.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And the thing is, I

⏹️ ▶️ John was trying to determine, does this actually do the cloning? It says uses clone file, blah, blah, blah. And what I was searching

⏹️ ▶️ John for is some massive file so that I could tell, oh, well, I know it definitely like cloned it there because it would

⏹️ ▶️ John have taken longer to copy it, but I could not find a file big enough to convince myself. So I’m assuming that’s correct. Have you downloaded the

⏹️ ▶️ John Xcode beta?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No. You gotta find

⏹️ ▶️ John a single file. Xcode is a giant app package filled with a bunch of crap. I need one big single file. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John I got it, I got it. Hold on. Just DD a big file, someone says. Listen, are any

⏹️ ▶️ John of you people out there recreationally using DD? Let me tell you, just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t. I can confirm that is correct. They did not use more space, or at least DF reported the same amount

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of space. And it copied really fast? Yeah, which is and it was a 5.6 gig file. So I’m pretty sure that was, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, not faked and like I did. I ran these tests with DF before and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after doing things like a finder copy a CP and a cat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into another file just to see like, you know, what level of deduplication did APFS have?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m pretty sure this methodology is sound and yeah, this so CP dash C

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or CP C is the correct way to do this with an APFS clone.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so now you can write your little brute force shell script or whatever that can find all the duplicate

⏹️ ▶️ John files because you’ll take hashes of all of them and it’ll be time consuming. And when you find them, you can compare the metadata

⏹️ ▶️ John and decide how much metadata you care about. And if you don’t care enough about the metadata, you can just make one clone of the other

⏹️ ▶️ John and match up the dates, which is the other one you decide is the primary so on and so forth. And then you’ll have nonsensical

⏹️ ▶️ John free space on your device.

Beach computer

⏹️ ▶️ John And by the way, you buried the lead on this, which I learned from other podcasts.

⏹️ ▶️ John Your brazen attempt to get a new iMac Pro for your wife and then convince

⏹️ ▶️ John her to take that iMac Pro to the beach, let that one get infected with sand,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and salt water, and

⏹️ ▶️ John salt spray, and then bring it back just so you can have an iMac Pro during the summer. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that plan was nixed, and so the new plan is iMac Pro at home, and Tiff’s

⏹️ ▶️ John old Mac goes to the beach, which I think is much more appropriate, and I can’t believe you tried to pull that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is fair, and you’re gonna hate what I’m actually doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh God.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it sounds like you’re getting your wife’s Mac ready to sell.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I’m getting it ready for the transfer. In fact, her old Mac is sitting on the office floor behind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me right now. We’ve had a very busy week. So this has all been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of slammed into like tonight. And the new iMac Pro is sitting on her desk.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It arrived two days late because, Well, my theory is UPS in New Jersey lost it or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tried to steal it because it was just not tracked in New Jersey for like three days.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, I was at the beach today dropping off some stuff and I realized

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really just want my computer there. Because for the last couple days, when her computer was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in limbo and it was possibly not going to arrive in time, one of the options we talked about,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which was gonna be what happened if UPS continued to steal it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to simply have Apple recall it, return it, and just take

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my iMac Pro out there and reorder hers after the summer. I started thinking about this plan. I even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ordered the carrying case, not the hipster one, but a more heavy duty one that actually has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco padding and actually includes the stand in the case.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I started thinking, how nice is it to have my entire computer out there? And how nice is it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to not have to spend like two days setting up yet another computer or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dealing with having three Macs that are all like activated in my name, which causes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some problems with certain software licensing and things like that. It’s just kind of a pain.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m just gonna bring my iMac Pro out there and take the risk. The room it’s in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not ocean side. It’s not gonna get any kind of salt spray on it. The door to it is even closed most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the time. The air conditioning is usually on in that room anyway. this is a desktop, this is a pro machine, I’m carrying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it there in a very padded case, it’s never gonna be out of my hands or out of my control.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have AppleCare. I might regret these words later. Sand fleas are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not covered under AppleCare, sorry. I know, but I love this computer so much and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a lot of very heavy development work to do this summer. When I was initially making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my beach computer plans, I didn’t know what Apple was going to deliver to us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at WWDC. I didn’t know how busy of a summer I would end up having. And it turns out I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a very busy summer with lots of development work. And so not only did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I decide that the 24-inch Dell monitor for my laptop would just be not enough screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco space, because I have a lot of simulator work to do with multiple simulators and with the watch simulator and things like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It just like sets screen space on fire, basically. Like whenever you’re developing with simulators and having documentation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco open, it just destroys screen space. And it destroys CPU cores because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all that indexing and processing and building and Swift and all this crap. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just want my iMac Pro there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can you put a link to your carrying case in the show notes so that we don’t get blown up by a million people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey asking what it was, please.

⏹️ ▶️ John People want to take their iMac Pro to Panera.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey every time any of us mentions any product on this show, if somebody wants to know about it, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so let’s just let’s just agree that it will be in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, I should also clarify, I don’t have this case yet. It’s coming tomorrow. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is not me vouching for it or saying it’s awesome. I think it should be good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco based on the Amazon page. That’s the only endorsement I’m giving here. I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no idea if it’s actually going to be good. This does

⏹️ ▶️ John look nice. I want to say I’m proud of Marco for not buying a third iMac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John We should all support him. Support this behavior change because as he began this story and

⏹️ ▶️ John I could tell that the five guy Mac was getting ready to depart I was like he bought a third I like president but he didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John he didn’t buy a third one everybody good job Marco it was tempting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no I was that was never an option under consideration

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Aftershocks bone conduction headphones and their weightless

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco that no other headphones do is they don’t have anything that sits on your ear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or goes into your ear or in other ways involves your ear itself. They have little transducers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that rest next to your ear kind of on your cheekbones and and they send little vibrations through your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bone and it goes into the inner ear canal and that’s what picks up the sound. The great thing about this is that not only does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it not leave you all sweaty because there’s only these little tiny things touching your skin and nothing actually in your ear,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is awesome for the summertime, awesome for exercising, but also you get to hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the world around you in addition to, say, the podcast you’re listening to or the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco call you’re taking on the headphones. And the headphones are so weightless. They basically weigh nothing. Like, you barely even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feel them. They’re very small and they’re very comfortable. And you can be walking around town,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listening to podcasts, but you can also hear if like a car is coming when you’re crossing the street. Or you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can be walking around the house doing chores and you can hear if someone knocks on the door in addition to hearing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your podcast through the headphones. Now if I’m honest, they’re not great for loud environments, but they’re awesome

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for places like walking outside or walking around the house or bike riding

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or jogging. Whatever it is that you’d like to hear the world around you addition to your sound, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you want Aftershocks. And I’ve tried both of their models now, the older model, the Trex Titanium,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the new one the Trex Air. They’re both excellent. I recommend the Air if you’re buying now. In fact,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I like it so much that I just bought myself a second pair because I never want to be without

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them and I want to keep one in a bag and keep one at the house. They’re that good. I use these all the time in the summertime.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I highly suggest you check them out. For more information, go to and you

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Unsigned Safari extensions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once again, go to and use code ATP30 for $30 off the weightless

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wireless Trex Air bone conduction headphones. Thank you so much to Aftershocks for keeping

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me happy during the summer with podcasts in my ears, although not actually totally in my ears,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and for sponsoring this show. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, so your long national nightmare with regard to computers for the summer is now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over. John, however, your long national nightmare about your beloved

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reload extension, which I still don’t understand why it’s so important, but it’s important that that national

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nightmare is over as well. Can you tell us about this?

⏹️ ▶️ John The new version of Safari in Mojave and also if you have Safari technology preview,

⏹️ ▶️ John also known as purple Safari, because it’s cool if you use that and it’s rejecting all of your

⏹️ ▶️ John unsigned non extension app store extensions like my reload button.

⏹️ ▶️ John We mentioned how you can use extension builder to load anything you want as long as you enter your admin password and go through some hoops, but then

⏹️ ▶️ John when you quit Safari and relaunch it, it forgets all about that and you got to reload them and it’s a pain. Apparently buried down

⏹️ ▶️ John at the bottom of the develop menu, I think it’s the develop menu, which is a menu you can enable

⏹️ ▶️ John in Safari’s preferences. Way down at the bottom, there is a little option that says allow

⏹️ ▶️ John unsigned extensions and if you check that option, I believe it will just forever allow you to load

⏹️ ▶️ John unsigned extensions in your own Safari, which is nice. I wouldn’t say forever.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, you know, until

⏹️ ▶️ John they update Safari

⏹️ ▶️ Casey again.

ATP in WWDC session

Chapter ATP in WWDC session image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what else is good news? We apparently were featured in a WWDC session,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I didn’t even know it until after the session was already over. As I was looking at Twitter and I was like, why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is everyone freaking out? Oh, hey, check it out. So this is session 501, introducing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey podcast analytics. I have only seen the little snippet that we’re in, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently they were introducing the next version of the podcast app for iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they made mention of how it’s going to start supporting chapters. And thanks to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the insufferable, I mean awesome Germans, led by who was it Tim Pritlove,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that right? They convinced us, which I really mean Marco, to add chapters and fast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey forward a year or two and now we’re on a WWDC presentation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slide for our chapter support. So thanks Tim and all the Germans, we appreciate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. It’s actually a little more nuanced than that. The Apple Podcast app was the first podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app to ever support chapters as far as I know, because Apple invented the original spec.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey The original spec… Oh, I didn’t realize.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay. Yeah, the original spec was for AAC files in the wonderful QuickTime MOV

⏹️ ▶️ Marco file format renamed to M4A, and it was a very, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco poorly documented or, I think, totally undocumented really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pile of hacks spec that was a pain in the butt to read, write,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and play, honestly. But they added support, I think back in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco old version of GarageBand where you could make podcasts more easily with GarageBand, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s where they added support to create these. And so the original chapter markers for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcasts for a long time were just those. And Apple’s app has always supported those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever since they made the spec. What it didn’t support was MP3 chapters, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco came a little bit later, I don’t remember exactly when but like there is a an ID 3

⏹️ ▶️ Marco spec for mp3 chapters that was basically just published to to add this functionality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the mp3 format instead of just having to be locked into a AC in this weird undocumented format

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so what Apple added support for was mp3 chapters they already supported m4a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chapters what’s extra funny about this is that so I really I released this app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forecast like what a year ago or something that and I’ve been using it for like three years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this app that creates podcast chapters. The app only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco creates mp3 chapters and until this version

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the podcast app comes out which I assume is this fall for everybody the biggest podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco player didn’t support them. Which is always a little bit awkward

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you’re trying to make a tool that says it creates podcast chapters. Meanwhile Apple’s app did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not support them because it wasn’t M4A chapters. So this is actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really nice. You know, it represents you know not only a win for the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wonderfully patent unencumbered now MP3 format, but it also represents

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple paying attention to what the podcast community needs and what they’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and taking part in that. And that’s really cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you know if the Google podcast app supports them? newly announced

⏹️ ▶️ John Android Google podcast app?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean we’ll see if this one of Google’s podcast initiatives takes off and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ll figure it out from there. This is not the first Google podcast initiative. The other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones haven’t really gone anywhere. So I wish them well. I hope they bring in more podcast listeners,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I wouldn’t assume that this is going to be a big thing until it actually starts becoming a big thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cool.

Memoji are ungendered

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So more from WWDC. The MeMoji are ungendered,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is pretty obvious when you start working with it, but I don’t think we did a very good job of talking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. In fact, I’m not sure we brought it up at all. But Madeline Buxton at Refinery29 has a post about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this, which is pretty good. And it discusses how some equivalent technologies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and other platforms are very clearly gendered. And when you make a MeMoji,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there is no gender determination ever, ever, ever, ever. You never specify gender. And that’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s really forward looking and I dig that. And I thought that was pretty cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think people would actually notice. You mentioned, you know, you’d notice if you use it. I think if you didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John draw that, bring this to someone’s attention, they wouldn’t notice, which shows a, how unessential it

⏹️ ▶️ John is to the process and be that like, it is a, it’s a better user interface.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s, it’s not bothering to ask somebody something that is not relevant. They just want to start clicking on things

⏹️ ▶️ John and make the face they want to make, That extra step of, by the way, bin yourself

⏹️ ▶️ John is an unnecessary step, right? There’s no, it doesn’t, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John unless, you know, actually, I was gonna say unless like it gives you some defaults or something, it changes your defaults, but

⏹️ ▶️ John even then, like you don’t know what the defaults should be. Like the only thing I can imagine them adding to the Memoji

⏹️ ▶️ John interface, which I still haven’t used, by the way, because I don’t have the beta and you can’t use it from

⏹️ ▶️ John an iPad Pro, apparently. It’s only on a 10, apparently, which is kind of annoying because I don’t think there’s any part of Memoji requires

⏹️ ▶️ John the depth camera but whatever apple anyway um the only feature i can

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine them adding is the one where it just takes a look takes a picture of you and does its best shot and making an

⏹️ ▶️ John emoji that looks like the picture it just took and that also doesn’t need any gender intervention it’s just like

⏹️ ▶️ John you know take a selfie and i’ll try to make some kind of emoji that looks like the selfie right

⏹️ ▶️ John um but but yeah i think this that is an important streamlining that basically

⏹️ ▶️ John everything that has you make an avatar should do. There is no reason for that step whatsoever.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you remove it people won’t notice or care and it lets them get to the part that they want to do which is making the

⏹️ ▶️ John face that they want to make faster.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the nice little side effects of our modern age of being a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more aware and a little more flexible on gender identity and gender distinctions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is this gradual elimination of pointless gender distinctions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that like just don’t really serve any purpose whatsoever. Like you know you’re right there is there’s no reason why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have to pick a gender for your avatar because you’re designing it from scratch with whatever hairstyle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want. You know stuff like that anyway like it doesn’t really matter and like like I one thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I noticed at the WBC we were we were in a couple different places in a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco row for like unrelated companies like a hotel and a restaurant stuff like that and I noticed they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they all had the same all genders bathroom signs and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our friend Jason Snell pointed out because he lives in California that there was actually apparently a recent law passed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in California that any individual bathroom in a public place like not like a not that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one that has like ten toilets but the one that has like one toilet one sink any individual bathroom in a public place

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has to now be labeled all gender bathrooms and that’s great it’s like yeah why did that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why were they separated before like that kind of it they had no reason to be separated before,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like why distinguish one as men and one as women when that’s a unnecessary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco distinction that just at best it is a misbalanced queue problem,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, bad scheduling of resources. And at worst it causes people to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco face a question that a lot of people really don’t like facing or don’t feel comfortable facing. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, why make that distinction?

⏹️ ▶️ John And the question they’re facing like is, they say, oh, well, we have to make gendered ones because we’re going to put different

⏹️ ▶️ John things in different bathrooms. And that itself is a problem. It may cause someone to have to make a difficult choice. Well, do

⏹️ ▶️ John I go to the bathroom that’s likely to have a tampon dispenser or do I go to the bathroom that I actually want to go to? Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. And so now you have to make this hard choice and roll the dice. They’re just all gender. It makes it uniform. They all have everything

⏹️ ▶️ John in them done and done.

Gifts for 1Password

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There were some gifts for all of us, but particularly our friends

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from 1Password. And coincidentally, I think it was in the State of the Union, I was sitting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey behind a group of individuals, all of whom were wearing 1Password t-shirts,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which obviously meant that they were from AgileBits, and they worked on 1Password. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the presenter was talking about how, oh, we’re doing some really cool stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where we can generate strong passwords for you, which I think, I think that’s old, but there was something new about it and it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey help you autofill and blah, blah, blah. And I could see the shoulders of all the one passwords, one password

⏹️ ▶️ Casey employees just kind of sink a little bit. But then, you know, Apple take it away and give

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it because the next thing they said was, and we’ll have hooks for other password managers. So you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can just, they can automatically autofill right from the keyboard and you don’t have to do that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey same, like, you know, share sheet, open one password, et cetera, et cetera, dance that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have to do today. And all those shoulders went perked right back up and they were all very excited. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was quite funny to watch. But basically, there are going to be ways

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the phone to generate strong passwords. There are new tools

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for two-factor auth autofill. Like if you get a text message, which is deeply insecure, but be that as it may, if you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get a text message with a six-digit code, it will autofill that for, ask to autofill that for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And like I was saying, there are even hooks for third-party password managers, like our preferred password manager, which is 1Password,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is super cool stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m gonna assume that the 1Password people actually knew about that and were just,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe. I’m assuming they knew, because I think they will be using hooks. And this is-

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would not make that assumption. Apple does not often tell people in advance about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco APIs that affect their apps.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not saying Apple told them.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh yeah, okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple telling them and them knowing are two different

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, I think this is such a weird instance. So this is what very

⏹️ ▶️ John often I personally have asked for over the years, but Apple so rarely does where they have

⏹️ ▶️ John some feature and like they integrate with it with whatever they’re built in thing here. In

⏹️ ▶️ John this case, it would be like key chain, right? So this password thing and you know, the key chain is integrated

⏹️ ▶️ John with it and their password generator. And if you’re in safari, it will all fill by looking things up in your key chain.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, that’s total Apple synergy integration, right? And in so many of those cases, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, okay, that’s great. But what if I don’t want to use the Apple whatever, the Apple key password

⏹️ ▶️ John manager, the Apple mail application, you know, the Apple window minimization framework,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Whatever it is, what if we want to make this like, can you add clean hooks?

⏹️ ▶️ John I used to call them clean hooks, because there were dirty hooks back in the day, clean hooks for third party applications

⏹️ ▶️ John to do the same thing, define an interface, make it an officially supported API and say third

⏹️ ▶️ John parties, if you make an application that conforms to this API and use this library, you too

⏹️ ▶️ John can hook into this part of the system and sell something that people buy to customize

⏹️ ▶️ John their Macs to change its behavior. That it isn’t some weird in-memory hack, that it isn’t some sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John sneaky thing that uses debug hooks to get a loadable text input bundle

⏹️ ▶️ John into your thing and run wild in the middle of your application, swizzling your methods and blah blah blah, like a real API.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because so many aspects of the Mac operating system historically have been,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, ripe for third parties to sell applications. Many

⏹️ ▶️ John many applications back in the classic days were very scarily implemented things that

⏹️ ▶️ John enhanced or changed foundational parts of the operating system. I used to have a whole bunch of extensions that modified

⏹️ ▶️ John open save dialog boxes. In fact, I’ve still been running default folder 10 for years. Things that change

⏹️ ▶️ John window minimizations, things that change the look and feel of the windows. Uh, you know, you name it, things that put things

⏹️ ▶️ John up into the menu bar before that was officially supported, right? So in some cases, Apple has done that, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the menu extras, the long slog to get third party icons

⏹️ ▶️ John up there with an official API, and then with an official API that is also the same as the one that Apple gets to use,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Uh, Some, uh, the appearance manager back in classic Mac OS

⏹️ ▶️ John days, but that went away in 10 and other areas where they’ve never allowed you to hook. No, you can’t do a custom window minimization

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. So forget about doing window shade is anything other than a hack But for passwords,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m very relieved to see that Apple is enhancing the password system and also

⏹️ ▶️ John Miracle of miracles providing clean hooks for third parties and but they didn’t have to do like They

⏹️ ▶️ John could just say well, sorry one password if people think they don’t need your thing anymore It’s just because our building stuff is so darn good,

⏹️ ▶️ John right and that’s I mean, that’s mostly fair But some people no matter how good you make the built-in

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff Some people just want to keep using the thing that they they have and in general it’s good for Apple not

⏹️ ▶️ John to we talked about Sherlocking last week There’s Sherlocking and then there is I’m going to eliminate your entire

⏹️ ▶️ John category of application by essentially duplicating Every feature of your application with our

⏹️ ▶️ John unlimited pool of money and that’s not so cool How do you really feel

⏹️ ▶️ John I? Want clean hooks Casey, that’s what I want.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’m going for everything. Oh, that’s all I know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John. That’s all any of us want

Can’t compile 32-bit apps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Xcode 10 no longer compiles 32-bit apps, question mark?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s true, right? Mark, are we working to confirm?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is correct. I mean, I’m not a Mac developer, but that is

⏹️ ▶️ John correct. Yeah, so this is a thing that I’ve heard developers complain about a lot, which is one

⏹️ ▶️ John of the reasons all of them keep around old Macs or Mac VMs, varying degrees

⏹️ ▶️ John of reliability, because you need to use the old version. Or they have multiple versions of Xcode on their Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John Some people are like, I’ve had multiple versions of Xcode my Mac for like years and years because I always have to keep the

⏹️ ▶️ John old one around to keep building my old applications to support the old operating systems. Apple is very aggressive

⏹️ ▶️ John about not just changing the support in the operating

⏹️ ▶️ John system for things like oh, the next OS won’t run 32 bit apps fine, but also saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John and by the way, the current version of Xcode won’t even build them anymore. So if you want to keep building a 32 bit app to do bug fixes or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve got to use an older version of Xcode. And if you keep doing that long enough, eventually that version of Xcode won’t even run

⏹️ ▶️ John on the current operating system. So now you need a bunch of VMs. And that always struck me as pushing a lot of the complexity burden

⏹️ ▶️ John onto the developers and making them figure out how to keep their old stuff running. And it would be

⏹️ ▶️ John nicer of Apple if their new versions of Xcode had a better backward compatibility story. But I 100% understand

⏹️ ▶️ John why they do it, because they’re always trying to like keep Xcode from crashing and keeping it from

⏹️ ▶️ John being bloated and forcing people into the future. And it’s all contributes to them making

⏹️ ▶️ John new versions of Xcode, abandon applications before they’re even

⏹️ ▶️ John abandoned by the operating systems that will run them.

MS, Adobe to join MAS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The Mac App Store is now getting Office 365 in the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey App Store, which is surprising. Horace DeDue writes, Apple now captures a percent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Office subscription revenues on the Mac. That does not mean 1%, just a percentage.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Some unspecified percent. Mm-hmm. A potential 100 million additional subscribers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has been added to Apple’s overall total of 270 million. And Adobe is gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be there as well. Some of Adobe’s stuff is there, is that right? Or is it all Creative Cloud?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I put these two items there mostly because they have been the two white whales for Apple. How can we get these two

⏹️ ▶️ John big companies that both have subscription models for selling their software

⏹️ ▶️ John on Macs? How can we get them into our App Store? Not so much to get a percentage of their revenue, although

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s nice, but just because how can you consider the Mac App Store

⏹️ ▶️ John the best place to get Mac software when Office and Adobe applications are not there?

⏹️ ▶️ John Those are two very big players, perhaps the biggest players in the Mac software market. And if they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Mac App Store, it makes the Mac App Store seem like the Junior League, you know? Like, well, the big applications, you

⏹️ ▶️ John go directly to or and you get them. But for dinky things, and you know, you can go to the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac App Store, and that’s not the way Apple wants it to be done. So I do wonder what

⏹️ ▶️ John exactly had to happen for it to get Microsoft and Adobe on here. Somehow

⏹️ ▶️ John I doubt that Microsoft is giving them a 30% cut or that Adobe is giving them 30% percent cut, but

⏹️ ▶️ John who knows? Some accommodation has been reached, and it’s not like Apple’s going to tell us. I’m assuming

⏹️ ▶️ John the effort to get Panic and Bare Bones back on the Mac App Store did not involve changing the 30

⏹️ ▶️ John percent cut at all, but for Microsoft and Adobe, I’m willing to imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John that some arrangement may have been reached. Yeah. And it kind of annoys me

⏹️ ▶️ John that we’re just expected not to really wonder about that. I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like if you’re going to do special treatment, people will understand if it’s Microsoft and Adobe. But I think

⏹️ ▶️ John they should be transparency would be a little bit better here. I think it will be more understanding

⏹️ ▶️ John rather than just wondering, especially if they really is a 30% cut for all of them brag about that then. And by the

⏹️ ▶️ John way, they have the same deal as you do. So the Mac App Store is level playing field for everybody. But

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, not saying anything makes me a little uncomfortable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I wonder if the Adobe being in the Mac Apps or whatever form that takes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if that could somehow I know this is a long shot if that could somehow allow me to just use the App

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Store for the licensing of those products and not have the stupid Creative Cloud app that I that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the little Adobe app manager that oh god that would be so amazing

⏹️ ▶️ John that would have to be part of the negotiation because I’m pretty sure they really can’t do that like

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t be sold in the Mac App Store and also integrated with Creative Cloud I don’t even know how they would

⏹️ ▶️ John pull that off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so and also that would solve my three iMac Mac Pros problem because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they you know if it’s truly licensed with a Mac App Store software is licensed there is no computer limit or at least there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco isn’t one that anybody actually reasonably ever hits so like that you could have Photoshop on three computers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that would be amazing man this is a lot to ask for this is wishful thinking I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Adobe can’t even make their upgrades save preferences from the old one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though there is literally a checkbox that is devoted exclusively to do you want to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco import your preferences when you’re making this upgrade and every single time I check it and zero times have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever actually brought over my preferences.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just be glad if your update completes successfully okay don’t get greedy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Adobe is so bad at software like which is funny for a software company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re just so bad at software. I wish so much that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t necessarily wish that I was not using any of their products because some of their products like I use Photoshop and Audition mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Audition is really good. Photoshop is a mess but Audition is really good and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there isn’t really any competitor to it that’s that good and that versatile at things that it does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me but man I wish it was less of a pain to install so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if this is a way to do that if they actually make their products available in the Mac App Store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using App Store and at purchase subscriptions that would be awesome and I would switch to that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a heartbeat

⏹️ ▶️ John Have you looked at Adobe XD? Have you heard of Adobe XD?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly at this point I’m trying to not learn about new Adobe products because I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get into more of them if I can help it. Like right now if I want to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dump Adobe and stop paying for Creative Cloud I have to replace an image editor and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a wave editor and there are you know there are a few other things in the world that can do those things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t like them as much but you know oh Oh well, but anything else I add to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do this to my Adobe dependency is just something else that I will want to escape later.

⏹️ ▶️ John So Adobe XD was described as according to this Google result as a user experience design

⏹️ ▶️ John software application. And I saw it demoed at layers or it wasn’t demoed. It was someone

⏹️ ▶️ John who works on that team was giving a presentation at layers and it’s the first they were just using their experience

⏹️ ▶️ John making XD and the team that made XD as examples of like interface design and everything. And it looked

⏹️ ▶️ John really interesting from an interface perspective. They talked a lot about like really just wanting to start with a clean

⏹️ ▶️ John sheet and not be constrained by like this is how Adobe applications work. So it has to look like

⏹️ ▶️ John Photoshop or Illustrator have a bunch of dockable palettes and all that other stuff. And they focused on performance and it was very lightweight

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was all very inspiring and interesting. Initially when they were demoing it, they weren’t leaning heavily on the user interface design part.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I was like, what is this? Is this like Photoshop next gen where they’re starting like the seedling

⏹️ ▶️ John of a little thing of an application will eventually expand to replace Photoshop without all the cruft eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John became clear That’s not what it is But I think a lot of the interface ideas and you know the focus on performance

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know modern technologies and making it lightweight I would love to see Adobe Make

⏹️ ▶️ John its own Photoshop killer and you know, just call it Photoshop like eventually call it Photoshop but started as this

⏹️ ▶️ John This like skunk works project to make a next generation thing and then just build it up and build it up and just say guess what

⏹️ ▶️ John you know in 2025 the you know it’s not XD but you say the new XD is actually

⏹️ ▶️ John the new Photoshop and Photoshop will just call it Photoshop classic and sell for five more years because Photoshop

⏹️ ▶️ John could use a kick in the pants like that but apparently that’s that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John to me but I was heartened to see that they have software design teams inside Adobe

⏹️ ▶️ John not working within like the Adobe constraints. Just say, Greenfield,

⏹️ ▶️ John make a new thing, don’t feel constrained by any technology or interface paradigm that any Adobe thing does. And maybe,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how that application installed, but for all I know, maybe that application isn’t installed by Creative Cloud. Wouldn’t that be something?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, it is the Apple way of doing things, right? To figure out what is the killer for your cash cow, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey figure out the iPhone to kill the iPod. And I’ve never really used

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Photoshop. I just don’t get it. And I’ve never

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John been in a position. You’ve never used Photoshop? How is that possible?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sure I have. I have for a few minutes, but I’ve never owned a copy. I don’t think I’ve ever pirated a copy. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve just never had a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco particular need for one. How is that possible? Yeah, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know. I don’t feel like this is… You were a teenager who knew about computers. How did you not pirate Photoshop? Every teenager

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pirates Photoshop.

⏹️ ▶️ John We can give it to you free with whatever you’re trying to download.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know what I… I mean, I never really had a need for it. I was never into photography

⏹️ ▶️ Casey until recently, and even then, I very rarely do very… particular edits to the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pictures I take. So I just never had a need.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a reason Photoshop is a verb now. Like it was kind of the iconic

⏹️ ▶️ John using computers to manipulate 2D images and still is for that matter and it is very powerful and

⏹️ ▶️ John I actually, despite Marco dumping out before, I actually still mostly like using Photoshop. It may be because

⏹️ ▶️ John so much of it is familiar to me from like Photoshop 1.0 which yes I totally pirated back in the day. You

⏹️ ▶️ John haven’t lived until you run Photoshop on a black and white Mac. Let me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tell you.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Metal is Apple’s kind of high-performance graphics and et cetera

⏹️ ▶️ Casey framework. And Metal is, I guess, supporting the addition of eGPUs,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not only to the MacBook Pros, but to the iMac Pro. So if you have an iMac Pro that just isn’t fast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey enough in the graphics department or the things that leverage graphics cards, you can add external

⏹️ ▶️ Casey GPUs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which, given that it’s a workstation that only is six months old and only has high-end options, that shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be anybody yet, theoretically.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, but it is, though. This is why I took note of this. So the fact that they support it, fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John We know about the eGPU support. They added it and they advertised it originally, I forget when it was, that was six months ago

⏹️ ▶️ John or something, like, hey, add eGPUs to your Apple laptops, right? Because they have crappy

⏹️ ▶️ John GPUs because their laptops, if you need a big honking one, buy one of these third party boxes connected through the magic

⏹️ ▶️ John thunderbolt. Look at this great performance. And bragging about how you can add multiple ones, and then it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John divide up the screen between them and do all this cool stuff. Definitely cool, right? So WWDC, they’re like, and eGPUs,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can add them to iMac Pro as well. And I don’t know if that’s a new development, or they just wanted to advertise

⏹️ ▶️ John it or both, but either way, it emphasizes, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m so desperate for Mac Pro content. Okay, so maybe I’m mapping this

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to basically emphasizes

⏹️ ▶️ John the fact that though the iMac Pro is their super high end best computer you

⏹️ ▶️ John can buy from them right now, it is still a sealed box. And yes, it has a good

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU in it. But it doesn’t have the very best GPU. And it certainly doesn’t have more than one of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John And lots of very high-end GPU intensive workloads need more than the

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac Pro can offer and need more than the iMac Pro will ever be able to offer because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not an upgradable GPU. So here they are coming to say, well we have a solution

⏹️ ▶️ John to that. You can just chain a bunch of eGPUs to your iMac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I feel like this is a tacit admission that the iMac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John in and of itself does not fulfill all the needs that Pro users have. Obviously we’re all waiting for the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John What this made me think about is, okay, does this become an ad for the Mac Pro? Where they’re like, well, with the iMac Pro, you gotta

⏹️ ▶️ John chain all these eGPUs, and if you have bandwidth limits, they can’t be met by Thunderbolt 3. It’s not the highest performance it could

⏹️ ▶️ John be or whatever. But the new Mac Pro, you don’t have to do any of that. You can just build it

⏹️ ▶️ John with two or three or four GPUs inside it, or at least two high-end ones, and they’re upgradable, so you don’t have to like,

⏹️ ▶️ John buy an iMac Pro and then watch its internal GPU age and become worthless as you replace the external ones

⏹️ ▶️ John year over year, right? You could just keep replacing the internal ones in your Mac Pro because that’s what makes a Mac Pro different from an iMac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. But seeing their emphasis on eGPUs makes me fear that their Mac Pro will be like

⏹️ ▶️ John a modular box with a separate screen with one GPU inside it that can’t be upgraded and then they expect

⏹️ ▶️ John you to chain a bunch of eGPUs. I really hope that’s not true. So I’m of two minds of this demo. On the

⏹️ ▶️ John one hand, I see it as potentially highlighting, it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John one shoe, we’re waiting for the other shoe to drop to say, look at this great Mac Pro, isn’t it better than an iMac Pro than a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of eGPUs? But on the other hand, every time Apple says eGPU, I fear that’s what they’re gonna do to my poor

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro and I do not want it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I honestly, I see your concern on that and that is one possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco outcome of this. And I’m not gonna try to candy coat it and say, oh, they definitely won’t do that because they might do

⏹️ ▶️ John that. We have no idea what they’ll do with a Pro Mac anymore. That’s the problem. We just, anything

⏹️ ▶️ John is possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, basically what all their customers want is something pretty boring and Apple seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to just refuse to deliver anything boring anymore in their eyes. So we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know they’re going to do something weird. We just don’t know what it is, and we’re just praying that it’s nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We just hope please don’t do anything weird. Please make a box

⏹️ ▶️ John case color. They can do weird case color, total license

⏹️ ▶️ Marco purple. But you know one thing with the GPUs is you know part of it is they have to you know they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not going to show off something about a future product now, they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to show off what their current products can do. So eGPUs are something that their current products can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use. Also, I think eGPUs are kind of a recognition of two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco realities of the Apple hardware lineup. Number one, a whole lot of people do pro work on laptops,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and modern laptops that Apple is willing to make can’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amazing GPUs in them because there’s not enough thermal capacity, not enough thickness. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s not going to make a big honking gamer GPU laptop or a big honking 3D Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco workstation GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John laptop. Steven Outerbergen And even those, they can’t hold the biggest GPUs. They just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t. Michael McGuire Right, exactly. So they’re not going to make those. So the eGPU boxes are a way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Apple laptop users, which is a whole lot of their customers, including many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quote pro users running many quote pro apps. So that’s a real need.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s like here’s a bridge that you can be working on a laptop, you can be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco somewhat portable but you can also have big GPU power available when you can plug in somewhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then reality number two is Apple knows, I think by this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point at least somebody inside Apple should know this and I think maybe this is one of the reasons they’re doing this, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their hardware release cycle is simply not compatible with the realities of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high end GPU market. GPU users want higher end options than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what Apple is ever willing to offer even when their products are new and they can’t wait 18

⏹️ ▶️ Marco months to five years for an update. So the GPU is kind of like it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s this compromise by Apple to wreck to patch over the needs that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their own unwillingness to ship certain products or to keep things updated at a certain pace have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, they’ve created these problems for themselves, but they don’t seem willing to solve those problems so the eGPU

⏹️ ▶️ Marco capability is a way for their customers to take those matters into their own hands. So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not an amazing reason that these things are necessary, but it’s the reality. These things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are necessary and so in the world where these things are necessary, this is a pretty good solution.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and they’re trying to realize value from their investment in Thunderbolt 3, which they’ve, you know, is

⏹️ ▶️ John expensive and complicated and it has surely made the Macs that implemented more expensive and complicated.

⏹️ ▶️ John And on the software side, it’s complicated things. GPUs are being plugged and unplugged and everything. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re doing that to get some benefits. And one of the benefits is the ability to do this. So I think it is 100% worth investing

⏹️ ▶️ John what they appear to have invested to enable applications to the

⏹️ ▶️ John demos they’re showing. It’s like, look, I can plug a bunch of GPUs of varying capabilities into this

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac laptop, and properly written software will intelligently divvy up the work

⏹️ ▶️ John to render this one screen between this heterogeneous pool of differently-strengthed GPUs,

⏹️ ▶️ John including the built-in one, to render the scene in the most efficient

⏹️ ▶️ John way possible. And that is very impressive, and it’s cool technology, and it is exactly is

⏹️ ▶️ John reaping the benefits of Thunderbolt 3. It’s a pro feature that many people maybe will never use it, or

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe they’ll use it like I do at work to be a one connection for a dock, which is kind of cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just wish it was more reliable. But external GPUs is certainly

⏹️ ▶️ John a feature. And so if they didn’t support it, it would be incredibly wasteful. Like, so I think it is,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s definitely a thumbs up to the support for it. But when they, when Apple itself

⏹️ ▶️ John chooses to talk about it on the iMac Pro, it strikes me as Apple itself

⏹️ ▶️ John highlighting the weaknesses of an entirely sealed, completely un-upgradable

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro Mac. I mean, maybe it’s not highlighting the weakness, maybe it’s saying, see, it’s not a weakness because we have this and you can use

⏹️ ▶️ John it to do that. It’s like, yeah, you need that feature for laptops though. This is supposed to be your pro Mac. Like, it’s fine because

⏹️ ▶️ John we know the Mac Pro is coming, but if the Mac Pro wasn’t coming and they did this demo, yes it is. If the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro wasn’t coming and they did this demo, it would have just made me so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco angry. I would not say the Mac Pro is coming until it’s here, first of all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I think we’ve been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco burned too many times before.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, they said 2019, it’s happening.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, when it arrives, I will exhale

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John on that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a 2019 product. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John What does that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean? And the Mac Mini is an important part of their lineup, right? Yeah, so anyway, but also,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if this does pan out this way, if the Mac Pro does come out sometime

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and only has these eGPU options as the way to have multiple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco GPUs or to expand your GPU down the road, if you would have asked me two years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ago what I thought of that solution, I would have laughed and said it was stupid, and like I do with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many things. But as the eGPU boxes are coming out And as we’re seeing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco benchmarks and tests and applications, they’re using them. It seems like the performance hit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by having the reduced bandwidth of using Thunderbolt three instead of instead of like a big wide internal slot is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not that relevant to actual performance and benchmark results for a lot of apps.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it depends totally depends on the apps, right? That’s why there are obviously they’re going to show you benchmarks where it doesn’t depend. And for the most

⏹️ ▶️ John cases games and important application, it doesn’t matter that much because games are tuned not to

⏹️ ▶️ John not to do that right not to constantly be shipping things back and forth to the GPU because that’s just bad for for frame rates and everything

⏹️ ▶️ John but there are applications where it you would take it like that is

⏹️ ▶️ John the actual constraint and external ones would would kill you I don’t particularly mind if

⏹️ ▶️ John it has external ones but if external is the only option for

⏹️ ▶️ John both upgrades and expansions that is terrible right if the only option for expansion fine,

⏹️ ▶️ John but if there’s the internal one can be upgraded that covers so many use cases So then every because new GPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John come out every year if every year you go buy a new GPU that would Extend the life of your Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John tremendously and if it can only ever hold one and the other ones have to be external fine,

⏹️ ▶️ John like you know presumably it would do it you’d get the benefit of it being small like In

⏹️ ▶️ John exchange for that like I can I can see that kind of trade-off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which nobody’s asking for.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean like I am And the cheese graters are really, really big. I wouldn’t complain

⏹️ ▶️ John about a smaller computer that can only hold one GPU, right? And as you said, the external

⏹️ ▶️ John ones in many use cases are great, but you know, saddling you with a

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty good, at the time of introduction, un-upgradable GPU inside your

⏹️ ▶️ John supposed Pro Mac is just not acceptable. Like that’s what the iMac Pro is for. Great, you’ve made that computer, make a

⏹️ ▶️ John different one now.

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#askatp: Teens to avoid iOS 12?

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Some name rights and that is actually the name they went by. Do you think I was 12 will see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the smallest or slowest adoption because teens will not like the new parental functionality.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So if you recall screen time, if you’re on a family share plan, whatever it’s called

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a family account, it will let the parents see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the screen time reports for the children and even set quotas and things, whatever they’re calling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey them, app limits or whatever it is, so that you can only use YouTube for an hour a day or something along those lines.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So do we think that that will slow adoption? I mean, probably a little, but I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be surprised if it does so appreciably. But that’s just me, and I don’t have kids

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would be afflicted by this, So maybe we should turn to John first.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, do you think that that your kids are aware of any of this happening? And do you think that if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they were aware of it, that they would be reticent to

⏹️ ▶️ John upgrade? So the question is, do you think it will see the smallest slash slowest adoption implying

⏹️ ▶️ John my read on that is saying like slower, it will see slower adoption than iOS 11 or 10 or nine

⏹️ ▶️ John will be the slowest adoption ever. Right? And I think the answer to that is definitely no. know,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, mostly because kids who would be affected by this functionality tend

⏹️ ▶️ John not to control when their thing gets upgraded. I know my kids don’t know what iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John is or what an iOS upgrade is, and I manage their, this aspect of their devices for them. And

⏹️ ▶️ John if you are a parent who’s going to enable this, surely you also have enough control

⏹️ ▶️ John over their devices to upgrade them to get this feature. I think iOS 12 will see if,

⏹️ ▶️ John if things trends continue, I think iOS 12 will see amazing adoption because I think the word will get out. Hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John try the new iOS for a change. It makes your device feel faster. Right. That

⏹️ ▶️ John if that remains true and that word gets out, people will be much

⏹️ ▶️ John more, uh, you know, anxious to upgrade than they were with 11. They’ll be like, well, my

⏹️ ▶️ John phone has been crap and they say this upgrade might help it. I’ll try it. Right. And it’s not nothing that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple can say that will do it. So it’ll have to just be word of mouth from people who do the upgrade and see the beneficial

⏹️ ▶️ John result and 11 really has been laggy because of the you know, the throttling and just general,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, people being nervous about the upgrade and like sort of the word of mouth not being good at it. So I’m pretty optimistic

⏹️ ▶️ John about iOS 12 adoption. I don’t think the parental features will hurt it in any measurable way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would be kind of amazed if a lot of people even knew about this feature anytime soon. you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, new iOS features, you know, we, we, we all who like follow Apple this closely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and listen to the podcast to talk about Apple this closely, like we all know about this stuff right after it’s announced. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many of us are even going to remember that this stuff is there in September, you know, let alone like, and you know, when you’re running the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco beta, you see like, it’s not very well emphasized.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not even on by default, I had to just turn it on on my own iPad, because I’m like, I wonder what applications I’m using on my iPad and I

⏹️ ▶️ John went to the screen and the whole feature was off.

A brief laptop distraction

⏹️ ▶️ John I was reminded of speaking of the the difference between the people who follow Apple closely and the

⏹️ ▶️ John people who don’t really care that much Someone at work was complaining that they had to got a new laptop They’re like these

⏹️ ▶️ John new laptops only have two USB C ports on them, and that’s it They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John just learning now. I’ve got a 13-inch right I mentioned this was in slack I mentioned you know

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple makes a model with just one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all that engineering effort that they’re trying to get out of Thunderbolt 3 to make those all G all these eGPUs work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And one of those ports is always just being used for power.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I didn’t want to go into USB-C versus Thunderbolt 3 and being

⏹️ ▶️ John taken up by power, but like things that we, you know, if you follow Apple closely and we’re talking about things

⏹️ ▶️ John that aren’t even released, that most people find out about things when they have occasion to get a new Apple device

⏹️ ▶️ John or when they run the upgrade. The thing about OS upgrades is, yeah, they probably won’t see the features, but Apple pushes those so hard

⏹️ ▶️ John on iOS devices that, you know, it’s a war of attrition against

⏹️ ▶️ John the dialogue is they keep nagging you. And that’s why I think the word of mouth will be essential to like asking around their friends, did you

⏹️ ▶️ John do the upgrade? Yeah, my phone’s nagging me too. And if you hear from them, yeah, I did it and either I did it and it’s fine or I did

⏹️ ▶️ John it and my phone feels faster, that’s gonna make them press the button way faster than the iOS 11

⏹️ ▶️ John thing of like, I did it and it’s making my phone weird.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do kind of love the idea of like teenagers like hoarding like an iPhone 4S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they can keep the OS that lets them watch as much YouTube as they want.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. funny. Well, you know, this Apple’s Apple software

⏹️ ▶️ John tools are not the best or the main avenue for

⏹️ ▶️ John parents setting limits on kids. It’s just another tool in a tool chest. And if you use it fine, but you

⏹️ ▶️ John can just take your devices away from your kids. Like you’re the boss

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them. Can you imagine like, you know, like, you know, when we were growing up,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the fear was that your parents would like find some, you know, list of your mattress and find

⏹️ ▶️ Marco adult magazines or alcohol or pot or something, we’re gonna lift our kid’s mattress and find

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iPhone 5 running YouTube.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t hide it, I can see everything connected to my Wi-Fi network.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That’s true. This is

⏹️ ▶️ John such an inversion because when I was a kid, you know, I had to help my parents

⏹️ ▶️ John work the computer that they bought for me. Because I, and they’re talking about this, in the house, I was

⏹️ ▶️ John the one who knew the most about that computer forever, from the day we got any kind of computer. Like, it didn’t matter,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And now with my kids, I continue to be the one in the house who knows the most about every computing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco device

⏹️ ▶️ John that we have because they don’t care about computers. It’s like, you know, me being super into

⏹️ ▶️ John the analog telephone system when I was a kid.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey As a quick aside, when I was at WWDC, I don’t remember whose it was, but I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had handled, I had held a 13-inch MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey non-touch bar for the first time. I’d seen them before, but I don’t think I’d ever- MacBook Escape. The MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Escape, thank

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you. They have a name and it sucks, so it’s called the MacBook Escape.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, so I’d forgotten that. The Escape really is not that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much bigger and not that much heavier than my beloved Adorable. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey man, that one more port, that one more port was looking so good. It was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looking so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good. And that bigger screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey and that- The

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bigger screen, eh. For me anyway, for me. I’m not saying that’s true for everyone, but for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco me- I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco find it makes a nice difference. I also find that ergonomically, like the 13 inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just fits better on my lap without like sinking between my legs. And I like the additional

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like proportions for like the trackpad spacing. Like it just, I just, I find the 13 just feels

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way better for me. And whenever Apple does release laptops that I like again,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m probably gonna get whatever the equivalent is of the MacBook Escape in that lineup because it’s such

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a great size. And especially now that I’m carting a desktop back and forth in the summertime.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I was surprised by how similar it was to my Adorable. And I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably still make the same decision today in buying an Adorable over the 13. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think you had said this, Marco, like if ultimate portability is not your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey number one priority, barring any other priority, then the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 13-inch MacBook Pro, without the touch bar of the MacBook Escape, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is probably the best all-around laptop that I can think of in Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lineup right now. And yes, I know you can still buy your beloved 2015 model, Marco, but I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying amongst the things that aren’t three years old, I think the Escape is officially the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey best all-arounder in my personal opinion.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think I agree. If you exclude the old models, I think I agree. The only thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is only having those two ports really kills me. When I did have it, I was very happy with it in most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other regards, except it really did suck to only have two ports.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Imagine having only

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco one, Michael.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know. No, that’s… And honestly, like, you said, like, if you were doing it again, you’d probably still buy the 12-inch. I bet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you wouldn’t for that reason. I bet you would want to double your port capacity by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to the 13-inch. But ultimately, like, if I were forced to go buy a new Apple laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today that I wanted for general portability. I would probably get the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 13-inch Touch Bar only because, even though I don’t like the Touch Bar, and even though it gets the worst

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life of the whole lineup, only because I really like having those four ports when I travel. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I end up, like, I did travel with a two-port one. It was a pain very frequently,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I really do enjoy having the extra ports. So if they had one that had four ports and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no Touch Bar, I would really prefer that, but that’s not an option, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I would get the middle 13-inch with touch bar thing just for the ports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco alone, even though, again, I would rather not have the touch bar. But hopefully, I really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hope that whatever update was supposed to happen to the laptops this month and didn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whenever that comes out, I really hope that they resolve some of these issues and give us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better choices. necessarily more choices or you know not giving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us everything that we’re asking for because we know that’s not going to happen. I just want there to be better choices because like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now there are so many like gotchas about the laptops and this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I heard Jason’s not talking about as an upgrade. This is a really bad time to have a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not very recommendable laptop lineup because summertime is when a whole bunch of people buy laptops

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go off to college. Like if you ask somebody in the know, what laptop should I buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now from Apple? What would you possibly say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to them? I would definitely say the 13-inch and then it’s your choice whether or not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you want the touch bar. But that’s what I would recommend. And I love this Adorable so much and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me, ultimate portability is the number one priority, which is why I think I would stick with it. But I am definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting ever more annoyed about only having one port.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them. I again just bring this back around. I I think that we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are on on the upswing for Mac hardware. I think there was a bad period.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple realized that and made some course corrections and that’s why we got things like the iMac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s why we got the Mac Pro eventually possibly maybe and the display that will possibly maybe go along with it hopefully.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s why we have things you know efforts going on like Marzipan and you know trying to get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac software game you know back back in shape again. I hope they’re on the upswing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does seem like that you know the Apple’s pretty quiet about this kind of stuff you can’t really tell until stuff comes out usually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it does seem like they’re back on the right track but that’s still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only a loose theory and loose optimism until we see what happens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next with the laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ John Speaking of the laptops and the ports do either one of you have USB-C thumb drives?

⏹️ ▶️ John No.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do they exist? Yes. Yes. They also have some that have like you can like you can pull out either connector

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the somehow like they have both an A and a C plug on them and you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like rotate them or

⏹️ ▶️ John something. Yeah, that’s weird. But yeah, I would I would I would like one

⏹️ ▶️ John of those. I should I should just get one even just taking pictures off my camera. I just hate having a dongles even

⏹️ ▶️ John for that simple kind of connection.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I do have a a SD card reader that’s USB C,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I do not have any thumb drives that are USB-C compatible. And I don’t remember what it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey came with. I want to say it was a Google phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey charger, a USB-C Google phone charger that was dirt cheap that I think I picked up for the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Switch, actually. And it has a itty bitty USB-C to USB-A

⏹️ ▶️ Casey converter, if you will. I wouldn’t even necessarily call it a dongle because there’s no little cord

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a little blob at the end of it. It’s just the thing it’s almost like those nubbins

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that those maniacs that use non-bluetooth mice have you know what i’m talking about john have you ever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seen one of those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John um for the listeners i was yelling i

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t use non-bluetooth mice my mice plug in with a cord but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey uh but the advantages of

⏹️ ▶️ John the nubbin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is even worse i i just like john said i was i was giving him a hard time on slack because uh he

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had shown a picture of his work laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John or perhaps

⏹️ ▶️ John my work laptop of somebody else’s. It was the person who was complaining about having two ports. That’s who it was.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There you go. So anyway, so it had one of those little nubbins for an RF transmitter, transceiver, whatever, for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a mouse. And I was lamenting that, to my eyes, I don’t understand why anyone would do that and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a Bluetooth mouse. But be that as it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco may. Well, for the same reason that my keyboard has one of those little nubbins, because this is the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I like, and it happens to only come like this. So, you know, when somebody has a mouse that they like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it happens to have an RF dongle thing, you know that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the reality. My argument was that the nubbins offer a superior

⏹️ ▶️ John experience to bluetooth in many respects like that there’s a target that bluetooth has not yet caught up to because

⏹️ ▶️ John those the nubbins from the good manufacturers right you plug them into your usb port

⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s it and they just work there’s no drivers and there’s nothing to configure there’s nothing to pair there’s no waiting

⏹️ ▶️ John for it to activate it’s like practically you plug it in boom you’re ready to go and the mouse starts moving and that is a pretty amazing

⏹️ ▶️ John computer experience that doesn’t exist for most things involving any kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of peripheral, but does exist with these stupid nubbins. Yes, they hog your port. Yes, it’s dumb. Yes, Bluetooth

⏹️ ▶️ John is in many ways a superior protocol, but they’ve just worked. They’ve just worked for years and the battery

⏹️ ▶️ John life on these mice with the little RF send and receive in their

⏹️ ▶️ John proprietary protocol is amazing. I was saying that the batteries in my wife’s wireless mouse, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John we changed it after three years,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like non

⏹️ ▶️ John rechargeable battery, three years, right? You just don’t think about the oven is there. It’s small, you

⏹️ ▶️ John never seen it just works all the time. And Bluetooth is great and has many advantages.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it does it doesn’t yet match that kind of experience. So I understand why regular people who don’t care about Bluetooth versus

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, are married to the nubbins both because like Marco said, maybe they just like that mouse and it comes with a nubbin.

⏹️ ▶️ John But also because of all the things in their computing life, the nubbin always works like it probably works more reliable than plugging

⏹️ ▶️ John in HDMI cable, which is sometimes flaky like just, if you if you have the nubbin and you have the

⏹️ ▶️ John mouse and you plug the nubbin in your mouse will work and that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Have nubbin will mouse. I don’t even know why I brought that up. Doesn’t matter. We should get back to ask. A.J.

#askatp: Kindle?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ATP. Ashley A. writes, are Kindles still the best way to read eBooks? The new Apple Books

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is getting good reviews. My Kindle is old and I don’t have an iPad. Would I be happy to quote unquote upgrade

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to an iPad or do you think owning both is warranted? I probably only read five books a year if I’m honest.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have Stephen Hackett’s hand-me-down Kindle. I couldn’t even tell you off the top of my head

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what flavor it is. I don’t use it that terribly often because it is not often I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey am reading an electronic book. Typically, I’ll just get something from the library. Yes, I am aware

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can do that on a Kindle as well, but I don’t often go that route. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I do use the Kindle, it is far and away

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a much better reading experience in my personal opinion. It’s lighter, the text is easier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to read, there are buttons on this particular model to turn, I think there are anyway, to go back

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and forward a page, even if there aren’t, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco just easier to go back and forward a page. That’s actually not a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey given. Yeah, I forget now, now that I say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. Most of the Kindles either don’t have buttons or have really weird buttons. There are very few that have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like regular, decent buttons.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. But the point I’m trying to drive at is it’s backlit, this particular one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It really is really, really nice. And the Kindles aren’t terribly expensive. So if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re serious about reading books, in my personal opinion, I would either get both or stick with your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey old Kindle or whatever the case may be. But that being said, if I had to choose

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only one, since I too only probably read about five books a year or something like that, if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had to choose one, I’d probably choose an iPad. But if you can find yourself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with a Kindle in your hands, I definitely recommend it. I think we started with John first last time. So Marco, as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the once owner of about 45 Kindles, any thoughts on this?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I actually recently discovered I still own one. I found it wedged in my closet shelf.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was like people like holding up a shelf behind some flashes. But yes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I haven’t shipped that one to John yet. But no, honestly, I think I mostly agree with you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can read on an iPad. Many people do. You can read on a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that matter or on your phone for that matter. And many people do those things. Well, not all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people read on their Macs, but you know, many people read on their phones. That’s a thing. I used to make an app that helped

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you do that. But ultimately, all of these devices,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the phones, the tablets, the Macs, are filled with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco outright distractions in the form of notifications and things like that coming in, and also just the temptation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of even if you don’t have a notification coming in, you kind of always know that like this device,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can just move your finger and you can be in something else. And you can, oh, let me just go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco check the email. Let me just go check the social feed. Let me just go check this thing.” And you just kind of get in this habit of cycling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through. It’s hard to concentrate on reading a book for a lot of us, myself included,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you’re on a device that can do all those other things also. Because the mode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your brain is in with that device is just constantly bouncing between

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different temptations. So while technically an iPad could do this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say a Kindle is a much better reading experience not because of most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco aspects of the Kindle itself. You know you could argue and people have argued about things like whether the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen is reflective or transmissive and now all the ebook readers are backlit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by default all the time so they’re all emitting light anyway so that that arguments and you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco turn it off but it’s you know very few people do so that argument is kind of out the window.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The screens on e-readers are kind of muddy you know E-ink screens are a really cool technology, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of a fundamentally slightly flawed technology. They’re always like a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco messy. It never is like a perfect transition between black and white and stuff like that. There’s the weird flash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on every so often and it has to do that for a page refresh, stuff like that. But ultimately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what makes Kindles awesome for reading is that they really can’t do anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else. That’s it. They are only for reading. You are holding, you know, just like a book, just like a real book. Like if you’re holding

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a real book, You can’t switch over to Twitter in your book or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get notified of some special that some store is running because they’re spamming you with push notifications

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like while you’re trying to read. So for replicating that part of a book while also having the benefits of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco electronic book distribution, so things like not having to carry a bunch of paper with you being able to download new books really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fast, saving the environment, et cetera, the Kindle is really great for all those things. And if the Kindle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was $400 like it was originally, I would say, yeah, you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what, if you don’t care that much about reading, don’t bother. But now, Kindles are so cheap, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just checked, the base model, I believe, is 80 bucks. Yeah, 80 bucks for the base model.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they kind of last forever. Like you don’t really, like there are advantages to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger and better Kindles, but not that major of advantages. And you know, paper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t change that often. And these devices that simulate paper therefore don’t really need to be updated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever, you know, as long as they still work. So not only do the base model start at 80

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bucks, and there’s not much reason to get the higher end models for most people, but also you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even like pick up a used one for probably under $30. Like they can be so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cheap, because people you know they’ve been around forever, they’ve been really cheap for a long time, they’re plentiful. So like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you don’t even want to spend 80 bucks, fine, don’t spend 80 bucks, spend 40 going to use one. It’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be just as good for reading as any of the new ones. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say if you want to read a book in an electronic format, if you can afford

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a Kindle which is easier and easier every year, get a Kindle. If not, if you only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really want to have one device to manage and to charge and to sync and everything else,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I respect that. If you have really good self-control, you can read on iOS devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I find it way nicer and easier to read on dedicated devices,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco either Kindles or actual books.

⏹️ ▶️ John I slightly disagree with Marcos characterization of that as very good. What did you say? Very good

⏹️ ▶️ John self-control or really good self-control. I think you just have average self-control is probably fine on an iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I think you’re underselling the advantages, the particular advantageous to reading

⏹️ ▶️ John of a Kindle and those are yes the screen technology and it doesn’t matter that the backlights there the

⏹️ ▶️ John key issue is bright sunlight if you’re reading on the beach and it’s a bright Sun that’s a good one

⏹️ ▶️ John you are screwed with an iPad right your iPad will get too hot it will overheat it’s a complicated device you won’t be able

⏹️ ▶️ John to see anything the screen technology is the biggest differentiating factor and the

⏹️ ▶️ John one side effect of that screen technology is the second biggest differentiating factor which is crazy battery life

⏹️ ▶️ John if you just want to have it in your bag and just not worry about charging it, the Kindle is for you.

⏹️ ▶️ John Those are the two big advantages. And the third one of not being distracting or whatever. But those those two

⏹️ ▶️ John are the reason why a lot of people who are very heavy readers are dedicated

⏹️ ▶️ John to the Kindle because those advantages cannot be matched by any you know iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John device with an OLED screen at any price. You just can’t match them, right? You’re never gonna get

⏹️ ▶️ John literal all-day 24-hour battery life out of an iPad and and you will not be able

⏹️ ▶️ John to see that screen in bright sunlight and it will be annoying to you to not be able to see it and it’s reflective and your

⏹️ ▶️ John thing will overheat on the beach and so it’s bad. On the flip side of that though, it’s like, okay, so if you’re a power

⏹️ ▶️ John reader and you read lots of books, you should definitely get a Kindle, right? Well, the flip side of that is

⏹️ ▶️ John it depends on how… it depends on how modern your reading

⏹️ ▶️ John habits are. So, for example, if you read a book and you always like to look up words

⏹️ ▶️ John that you don’t know, The Kindle can do that, but the experience of interacting in any way with an E-ink screen

⏹️ ▶️ John is gross and annoying and slow and just not nice. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re in an environment where the iPad is an acceptable reading device, it is way easier to

⏹️ ▶️ John quickly look up words. It will, the display and the interaction of doing that will be nicer. Similarly

⏹️ ▶️ John for following hyperlinks, jumping around, you know, zooming in on images

⏹️ ▶️ John that may be in the book. the more the book your book experience is richer than just what a printed page

⏹️ ▶️ John would be the more the features of the iPad come into their own so in many ways the iPad is the quote-unquote

⏹️ ▶️ John high-end reading device as long as you’re not in bright sunlight and don’t have to worry

⏹️ ▶️ John about battery life so like Margo said because the Kindle so cheap that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the kind of the tiebreaker it’s like well why are we even talking about this and I’ve had as a bazillion dollars just get a Kindle you should just have

⏹️ ▶️ John one anyway just to have it because in the situations where it excels, there is no substitute and they’re cheap enough

⏹️ ▶️ John that you should have one. So I would totally recommend, you know, buying one, get a cheap one, find

⏹️ ▶️ John one used or whatever. Just having one is worth it. And the other thing that I don’t want to mention too much because I don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John remember if this is still a real thing. I doubt either of you two know either.

⏹️ ▶️ John Kindles used to come with free cell network access to download books. Is that still

⏹️ ▶️ John true?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s an option on some of them. I don’t It hasn’t been the default for quite some time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John back in the day, that was amazing. It was basically, you’d buy a Kindle, and then you never had to pay for

⏹️ ▶️ John a cellular bill or anything, and if you wanted to buy a book from the beach

⏹️ ▶️ John and download it through cell access, you could do that, and that was a pretty amazing experience to just not have to worry

⏹️ ▶️ John about it and to always have a net connection that you can’t use for anything useful, but you can sure download a book with

⏹️ ▶️ John it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is indeed still an option. It isn’t by default, but on everything but the lowest end model that is available.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would also say, when weighing Kindle versus iPad, these are also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very different physical form factors, especially if you don’t consider the iPad mini,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s ancient and it would be ridiculous to buy an iPad mini today, based on the current pricing and

⏹️ ▶️ John model. That still weighs twice as much as any Kindle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably. Right, exactly. The iPad is a much bigger and heavier, and more fragile and more expensive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device, and less water resistant. Like the highest end Kindle, the Oasis,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which admittedly is expensive, it’s $250, it’s also really nice, and it’s still cheaper than any iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is also fully waterproof. You can drop it in water and it’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you’re doing a lot of reading either in the bathtub or at the beach or in a pool or something like that, like that could actually be relevant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But also these are just, Kindles are just more comfortable to hold in your hand for long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco periods. Holding an iPad for a long time to read is kind of uncomfortable, especially now as I keep getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit bigger, a little bit heavier, and as the iPad mini becomes less and less of a sensible option.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So really for reading, I would actually say a Kindle is by far the best option.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would not say the iPad is the high-end reading device. I would say the iPad is the browsing

⏹️ ▶️ John device. It’s the high-end device if you’re going to use e-book specific features.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like the more features of e-books that your e-books have and the more of them you want to use, like say taking notes in the margin

⏹️ ▶️ John with your Apple Pencil stuff like there are many things like as you start using those

⏹️ ▶️ John ebooky features, they’re just not possible on the kill. You’re not taking notes in the margin, you’re not, you know, quickly managing

⏹️ ▶️ John highlights and seeing comments on communal highlights. And like, there’s all sorts of things that yes, you can do them on the Kindle.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you just don’t you just don’t want to touch that screen. You don’t want to do anything having to involving UI or anything involving navigation because

⏹️ ▶️ John everything is slow and janky and the screen flashes and it looks gross and it’s just bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John So if all conditions are right, and you want to use those kinds of interactive features. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John no substitute for the iPad, but I think most people are heavy readers don’t do that. Maybe I’m underestimating how

⏹️ ▶️ John much people highlight and maybe I’m overestimating how annoying it is to try to do those things on a Kindle. But

⏹️ ▶️ John my experience is I just, I just stopped using those features because I don’t want to, I don’t want to

⏹️ ▶️ John touch that screen with anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All righty.

#askatp: If Apple bought Bungie

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, Josh Hunt writes, curious to hear what you think would have happened in the alternate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey universe where Apple bought Bungie. What would or would not have happened to the Halo franchise?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Gaming on the Mac, Destiny with three question marks. John, who is Bungie

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and what is Josh Hunt talking about?

⏹️ ▶️ John Who is Bungie?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I know, but the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey listeners may not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Come on, man. Everybody knows who Bungie is. Do

⏹️ ▶️ John they, though? So Bungie was a Mac software developer back in the days when

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac software developers were few and far between, and they made pretty amazing games

⏹️ ▶️ John that allowed Mac users to brag to everyone else that you don’t have this game on your platform and people might

⏹️ ▶️ John actually care. Maybe not, but they might, because the games were unique and very cool

⏹️ ▶️ John and very interesting, and did a lot of things on the Mac that weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John as easily possible, especially in the days before the internet, like network-connected first-person games

⏹️ ▶️ John with physics-based fun in them. Mac users were doing that

⏹️ ▶️ John with Marathon over Apple proprietary networking long before the internet existed.

⏹️ ▶️ John So eventually, you know, the Bungie had made a big splash at a Macworld Expo. They were on stage,

⏹️ ▶️ John then they were showing, this is their new game called Halo, and they were showing it on a Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ John and everyone was excited because Halo looked amazing, and Mac gamers were excited because here was a game coming

⏹️ ▶️ John to the Mac, demonstrated on the Mac for the first time, and boy won’t that be great and then Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John bought them, which at the time was a much bigger blow than you might imagine in today’s world, but back then Microsoft was

⏹️ ▶️ John very definitely the enemy, and they went and bought our beloved

⏹️ ▶️ John top tier Mac game developer. Halo still came out for the Mac many years later in

⏹️ ▶️ John a very bad port, not done by Bungie. Halo went on to become the

⏹️ ▶️ John franchise that made the Xbox a going concern, and the rest is history,

⏹️ ▶️ John and eventually Bungie left Microsoft and left Halo behind and made Destiny, yada yada. So if Apple had bought

⏹️ ▶️ John them, I’m assuming they mean if Apple had bought them at the same time Microsoft bought them, like instead of going to Microsoft, they went to Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think Apple would have screwed it up because I think the Apple then and the Apple today

⏹️ ▶️ John do not really understand games and gamers. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John they would have had a misguided notion that if we buy this game developer, it will help

⏹️ ▶️ John boost whatever product we’re pushing at the time. like oh buy an iMac and get the cool new Bungie game or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John thing they would have in their mind of how it’s supposed to work and it wouldn’t end up working that way because

⏹️ ▶️ John the iMac would have a crappy GPU or it wouldn’t help sell anything because most people don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John care about this game and they wouldn’t understand this is not a general-purpose thing and that there there’d be a mismatch

⏹️ ▶️ John between cool Bungie game and customers we want to sell our products to and gamers and the

⏹️ ▶️ John Venn diagram would not overlap the way they think it would be and they would be disappointed and disillusioned and they’d be like well

⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever now we got this game developer. I don’t know Maybe we can steal some of their employees to work on like the

⏹️ ▶️ John courts back end for Mac OS 10 The rest of them can make a new version of the game if they want

⏹️ ▶️ John it would just would have fizzled I think there never would have been a destiny I think Apple would not have supported them the way Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John did through all those generations of Xbox Because they never reason to because the app Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John poured tons of money into them and realize this is our meal ticket This is the button. This is what makes Xbox possible. It’s what makes

⏹️ ▶️ John us possible to make a second Xbox That wouldn’t have happened with Apple. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it actually would have been worse for Bungie if Apple bought them than if Microsoft bought them. And

⏹️ ▶️ John in general, if you look at the history books, it would have been worse for Bungie if nobody bought them too, because they were not in a good financial situation

⏹️ ▶️ John and Microsoft kind of saved their bacon. But the best of all possible worlds would have been Bungie that remains

⏹️ ▶️ John independent and had a magical pot of gold that someone gave them that allowed them to

⏹️ ▶️ John stay in business and continue to pay their employees while making the Halo game they always wanted to make.

⏹️ ▶️ John and not having to leave that IP behind with Microsoft and being able to connect it directly to Destiny

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of connecting it indirectly to Destiny through clever marketing slogans that only really old school

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac gamers get.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t even know that that was a thing, the slogans. Are there examples that you can think

⏹️ ▶️ John of? Pathways Out of Darkness was how, was one of the title cards on the first

⏹️ ▶️ John reveal of Destiny. And that is a play on Pathways Into Darkness, which was one of their,

⏹️ ▶️ John was it their very first or one of the very early games for the Mac, which was itself connected to Marathon, which was

⏹️ ▶️ John itself connected to Halo,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ John is connected to Destiny only in ways that lawyers can’t prove.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, RXBAR, and Aftershocks. and we’ll talk to you next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And Casey wouldn’t let him

⏹️ ▶️ John Cause it was accidental It was accidental It

⏹️ ▶️ John was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find

⏹️ ▶️ John the show notes At ATP.FM And if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John Into Twitter You can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco At C-A-S-E-Y-L I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M A-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R

⏹️ ▶️ Marco SIR AC USA

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse

Neutral: Wrangler

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So Casey, why is there a Jeep Wrangler in your garage?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, about that. So I have a Jeep, temporarily.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have not done anything with my BMW as yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is still broken. It is parked in my driveway. It has been driven a couple of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey times since the diagnosis before WBDC that it is ailing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I asked my dad, or actually dad kind of volunteered, to let me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey borrow his car in the interim between now and when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’re doing a little bit of traveling. And then subsequent to that traveling,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we will be figuring out a permanent car scenario. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he just so happens to have a Corvette Z06, a Prius

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Prime, and a Jeep Wrangler. Unfortunately, he didn’t let me borrow the Corvette, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would have been a lot of fun but difficult for car seats. But he did let me borrow the Wrangler, and I gotta

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell you, it is very different than the BMW, but I do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it quite a lot. In fact, just earlier tonight, I took the top

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down. It is a soft top, so it is a two-door soft top. It is a 2012 model, I believe.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I took the top down earlier tonight because it is supposed to be a rain-free day tomorrow.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s going to be a game time decision whether or not the doors will come off, which has already happened once in the three or four days

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve been borrowing it. I gotta tell you, top down motoring, very cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Doors off motoring, super cool. And I put a picture in my Instagram stories,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which, yeah, that was the only place I posted it. But let me see if I can find

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it real quick. Where’s my phone? But it said it was a warning sticker that was on the headliner

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the soft top. And okay, here it is. It said the following,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey warning, the top and doors on this vehicle are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey designed only for protection against the elements. Do not rely on the top and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doors to contain occupants within the vehicle or to protect against injury during an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accident. wear seat belts at all times which i thought was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of scary and also awesome all at the same time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John not particularly awesome it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John sound that side impact like just look at those doors you’re like oh it’s fine they had to pass the same crash test this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing has a warning label telling you the doors do nothing yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is bad you’re basically in a motorcycle basically

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco obviously with doors

⏹️ ▶️ John off you know you’re not protected but with doors on it’s it’s pointless

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I honestly like you know as as we get older and we have kids and everything I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the natural thing for us to do is become more risk averse can you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco square that with this it’s not as dangerous as buying a motorcycle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s not that it’s like it’s oh it’s not even in the ballpark but it’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the motorcycle spectrum

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so it’s a car

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no not for safety

⏹️ ▶️ John if you get hit in the side by another car and you’re on a motorcycle you got big problems by another

⏹️ ▶️ John car and you’re in a Jeep you still have some pretty big problems like another car in your giant Volvo SUV you’re probably

⏹️ ▶️ John okay as long as the speed is slow like it’s a big there’s a big gap between your vulnerability motorcycle

⏹️ ▶️ John Jeep Volvo yeah there that those are there’s big gaps between those things

⏹️ ▶️ John or a car with doors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah like like the Jeep is not it’s like you have the two ends of the spectrum You have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bulky modern car with modern reinforced everything on one side. On the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco side, you have motorcycle slash standing. The Jeep is not on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco car side of that. It is somewhere in the middle between those two. And it’s not even that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco close to the car side of

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Where the bumper of the other car can literally touch your body directly because there is nothing there because you took the doors

⏹️ ▶️ John off. And even if the doors are there, all they do is serve as shrapnel to jam into your body because

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey they perform

⏹️ ▶️ John no protective function

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatsoever. Oh my word. So you’re not in support of my Jeep idea. Fine. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John see

⏹️ ▶️ John how it is. Get a Jeep Grand Cherokee, probably has pretty good side impact protection. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s not really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Jeep. Excuse me, the IHS safety rating is M,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I’m going to assume is medium. Oh no, it’s marginal.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Nevermind.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, M for mature. M for motorcycle. No, it’s for marginal, apparently, you big jerks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marginal. Front was good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Is marginal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the worst it gets? Side, no. There’s also poor. Okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s motorcycle. Yeah, exactly. No, it says this is small overlap

⏹️ ▶️ Casey front driver side. Good passenger side not rated moderate overlap front

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good side

⏹️ ▶️ John moderate. Well, the thing is, those tests are very regimented and only test

⏹️ ▶️ John one specific kind of impact that the manufacturers know that they’re going to be subjected to it a particular angle, a particular

⏹️ ▶️ John height, a particular force, real accidents are not like that real accidents. sometimes it’s the grill of a Cadillac Escalade

⏹️ ▶️ John coming into your shoulder blades. Like, it’s not, the world is not as neat and tidy as that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so those tests are partially designed to say, look, we understand the door goes across the entire

⏹️ ▶️ John car, but we’re only going to hit it at this height here. And we think that’s a good stand in because it’s a reasonable place to hit it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But for the Jeep, understanding that, okay, there is nothing structurally

⏹️ ▶️ John protecting you in this area. And it just so happens that the side impact thing hits on this area where there is structure Protecting you you

⏹️ ▶️ John better hope someone hits just right in that area because if they don’t they’re just going directly into you or

⏹️ ▶️ John you know Your occupants or whatever. So I’m not I’m not a fan of

⏹️ ▶️ John That car in terms of safety

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, but it’s a lot of fun. It is big. It is slow. It is heavy It is loud

⏹️ ▶️ Casey always it loud and I and I’ve been in a so again, this is 2012 The chat

⏹️ ▶️ Casey room is very concerned about the color of the car are. Dad’s first Jeep was white. His second Jeep was white.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This one is red with a black soft top. In any case, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey brand new Jeeps, the JL Wranglers, are considerably quieter on the inside than this one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is. This one is a JK Wrangler, which is a model designation, and it is fairly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey loud. It is luxurious for a Jeep

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wrangler, which is to say it is not terribly luxurious at all. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is a tremendous amount of fun. And it also has what they call the Sunrider soft

⏹️ ▶️ Casey top, which means, and the hard top has something vaguely similar to this, or maybe it’s like T tops in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hard top. But in the Sunrider soft top, what that means is, you can pull to, you can you can unpop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the mounts that are basically in front of the driver and the passenger and just flop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the front, I don’t know, foot, foot and a half of the top back. And so you’ve kind have created

⏹️ ▶️ Casey almost a sunroof for you, or almost really a Targa top for yourself, without having to remove any windows

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or fold the actual soft top down or anything like that. Um, but yeah, I fold, I put

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the top down, like I said earlier tonight, that took me 10 ish minutes, give or take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little bit. And most of that was spent trying to finish the unzipping process of the rear window, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey plastic. It’s just, you know, eight years on or however long we’ve had this car seven years on. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s just a little difficult to unzip. I have seen again, the JL Wrangler soft top is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much, much, much nicer, much, much easier to use. And this was about 10 minutes to put it down. It would be roughly the same to put it back

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up. So I am still sitting here now thinking about getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Wrangler if I end up replacing the BMW, which is the plan.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that being said, in mid-July, it sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I am getting my next press car, which I think I’ve told you to, and I will not share on the show at this time,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but in mid-July, I should be getting another press car. And that press car is within the realm of affordable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a way that the Alfa Romeos very much were not. And thus, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might change everything in my whole Wrangler idea, because this press car

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is something that is small, fast, and not exceedingly expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So… And has doors.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doors.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Minor detail. Yeah. Minor detail. So…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might include some safety. It arguably will include at least a little bit of safety features. So anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so, uh, that is not a hundred percent committed, but it is tentatively committed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, um, that will be my first real act as a unemployed fellow is to do the Casey on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cars on that automobile. So look forward to that, hopefully at the end of July, by the time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I get the car film at it, et cetera. But yeah, but let me tell you, if, if nothing else is a distraction,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s fun as crap having the Wrangler. I could see myself living with it, especially since I know how

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much nicer the JLs are over the JKs. But yeah, it is not as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey safe as some other cars on the road for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like any of them.