Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

278: Best Worst Influence

Memoji, stereo HomePods, Mojave Dark Mode, Safari tracking prevention, and Casey putting his job in the parking lot.

Episode Description:

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MP3 Header

Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Follow-up: “Migration” video
  2. Follow-up: It’s Road Trip
  3. RIP AIM, ICQ, etc. in Messages
  4. APFS for Simulator testing
  5. iOS 12 beta 🖼️
  6. Sponsor: AfterShokz (code atp30)
  7. Stereo HomePods
  8. Sponsor: Molekule (code ATP)
  9. Measure app
  10. Multiple Face ID faces
  11. Mojave Dark Mode
  12. Notarized apps
  13. Safari’s tracking prevention
  14. Sponsor: Rover (code accidentaltech)
  15. #askatp: Mac apps for novices
  16. #askatp: Android iMessage?
  17. #askatp: Streaming consoles
  18. Ending theme
  19. Neutralog(ue): Job Liss

Follow-up: “Migration” video

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sorry, I bored you John

⏹️ ▶️ John Great hopes who he’s gonna summarize

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So let’s start with some follow-up Stephen Fry was the narrator for the migration video one of us had said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was Oh god, what was his

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John name?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thank you. It was not David Attenborough. It was Stephen Fry

⏹️ ▶️ John Stephen Fry doing David Attenborough impression.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Jen Simmons who is a designer advocate at Mozilla had had contrary thoughts about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the migration video. So this is the video, the same one we were just speaking of at the very beginning, which I loved. I thought it was hilarious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about how, you know, developers basically never come out to the sunshine and they never travel, they never talk to people, et cetera, et cetera.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Jen said, I can’t get past the opening video with the long quote unquote joke about how developers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are not regular people. They’re a special kind of nerd. Only certain human qualify as special

⏹️ ▶️ Casey enough. I simply am so utterly done with this myth that only people who act male,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey act white, act nerdy, dress badly, eat junk food, have poor social skills, are qualified to be developers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s a special insiders club, which most people can’t join. Or that there’s a special insiders club that most

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people can’t join. I’m utterly sick of that idea. Simply saying, quote, oh, girls can join now. People of color can join now. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just have to act like this, dress like this, eat like this, talk like this, think like this. Here’s your hoodie, join the cult slash club, quote.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s not being inclusive. That’s enforcing a monoculture. I can’t disagree with this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is not the read I got from it, but hey, I’m a white nerdy guy, So what do you expect?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I thought the video was funny and I think it’s because I am I don’t know if we’ve met I kind of like to Make fun of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey myself. I that that’s kind of just one of my quirks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco and so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I I yeah, I know exactly I thought it was very funny, but I think this is a very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good point and I’m glad one of you I’m guessing John put this in the show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John notes.

⏹️ ▶️ John I brought up a similar point on our live episode That some aspects that video rubbed me the

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong way and I put it in here again to talk about it But just to get a perspective from someone who doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John fit exactly into the stereotype that they were giving there, but also because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a challenge, right? So on the last show, I talked about how if you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to get the audience on your side and reflect them back in the video and say, this is a thing about

⏹️ ▶️ John you, down to literally putting developer friends of ours in the video. So you want to

⏹️ ▶️ John foster the idea that the people who are at WWDC,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that there is something that unites them and their common interest in Apple and developing for the Apple platform. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John that is the thing that should unite them. So you’d want to have kind of the most

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of benign version of the in-group out-group, right? The in-group are people who attend

⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC. You want to go to a conference about developing for Apple platforms, you are in the in-group. and

⏹️ ▶️ John then the out group, not in a mean way, but just trying to say, you have this shared interest,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And so you are different than people who don’t have this interest. Let us all feel good about our shared

⏹️ ▶️ John interest, right? So I understand the aim of the migration video.

⏹️ ▶️ John But whenever you have, and I’m sure that was part of the motivation of making this video. Whenever you do

⏹️ ▶️ John something like that, though, you have to be very careful that the sort of the outline

⏹️ ▶️ John of the in group and out group is what you think it is, right? because there are there is the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that unites people that we receive I think is just what I described right and pretty much nothing

⏹️ ▶️ John else what unites people. W. C. Is not that they’re all dudes is not

⏹️ ▶️ John that they’re all white. It’s not that they’re all rich. It’s not that they’re all from the U. S. Is not, you know, any

⏹️ ▶️ John any other thing that is unrelated to developing for apple platforms is

⏹️ ▶️ John really outside the realm of the things that should be uniting the people who are there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s very easy to the stereotypes include much more stuff. So you get the people dressing,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, dressing in the hoodies or excluding the guy in the suit or the plain fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John like the vast majority of people shown in the video were men. It’s very easy to fall into those because

⏹️ ▶️ John you think your motivations are pure. I want people to feel like they belong and they belong to this

⏹️ ▶️ John tribe of WWDC, this tribe of Apple developers. And that is a good instinct. And that’s what they’re going for. And that’s what everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John is responding to, right? We want to feel like we are part of that group. We have this esoteric interest, but now suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re in a group with all all those people with similar interests. But the other stuff that comes along with it can make

⏹️ ▶️ John certain people feel like, oh, this what this video is telling me is that I’m not actually

⏹️ ▶️ John a member of the tribe, because I don’t see myself reflected up there or because what

⏹️ ▶️ John some of the aspects of the stuff that putting up there don’t apply to me. So for example, when they’re talking about like source code as a strange

⏹️ ▶️ John language, I would give a thumbs up on that. Because if you’re a developer, to people who aren’t developers,

⏹️ ▶️ John writing computer code looks strange to them. And that is the thing that everybody knows and has learned and can unite them.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anything having to do with how you dress or how socially awkward you

⏹️ ▶️ John may be or just representation thing of like who you see up on that screen is, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John is the thing that could potentially make other people excluded. So, um, I think I’ve said this on past shows or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s the general rule for life that we judge ourselves by our motivations, but other people by their

⏹️ ▶️ John actions, right? And in some respects that’s a good way to think about that to help you deal with other

⏹️ ▶️ John people. But in this case, I think we can all agree that Apple’s motivations are pure,

⏹️ ▶️ John but as a large corporation with a big voice up on a stage

⏹️ ▶️ John in front of thousands of people and thousands more remote, we have to at some point also judge them

⏹️ ▶️ John by their actions. So we may recognize the great motivations and though we may think this video made

⏹️ ▶️ John us feel good and uh you know like

⏹️ ▶️ John we appreciate the motivation we appreciate some of the feelings that engendered there are still aspects of it that

⏹️ ▶️ John were not ideal and you know anita sarkeesian’s refrain at the beginning of every one of her videos

⏹️ ▶️ John that uh people conveniently ignore is that it’s oh i’m paraphrasing it’s okay to criticize

⏹️ ▶️ John things that you like like it doesn’t mean you hate them forever it doesn’t mean it’s the worst thing in the world it just means that

⏹️ ▶️ John everything you know things that you like i think had a podcast about this There’s usually something that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John worth criticizing about them and you don’t have to go from I hate every aspect of this and now I need to boycott Apple or say I

⏹️ ▶️ John love every aspect of it and it’s perfect. God I should have looked up her quote because it’s a little you know stick

⏹️ ▶️ John that she that she does at the beginning and it’s very apt. So anyway, all this is to say that nothing is so perfect.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hehehehe

Follow-up: It’s Road Trip

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, can you tell me what it’s road trip me? Oh, that’s right. It’s road trip I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right as I was reading that it occurred to me what that was Did we not talk about this on the show?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John We didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we missed it It was in the notes and I you know, the specifics aren’t probably not that interesting a vote just to

⏹️ ▶️ John refresh everyone’s memory There was a past keynote where some Apple folks were giving a demo I forget of what application

⏹️ ▶️ John and they were trying to write Utah road trip and auto-correct change, Utah into its It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the guy giving the giving the demo hit return or whatever or like, you know, accepted

⏹️ ▶️ John the text before he had realized autocorrect is snuck behind his back and changed it’s Utah

⏹️ ▶️ John to it’s. And he has this great expression on the video where he’s like, oh, like you see his face drop

⏹️ ▶️ John and his eyes roll on his head, you know, and and so they had this project that was running and

⏹️ ▶️ John they fixed it. I think they fixed it in post, like in the non live version, they changed it to Utah, right? So it looks okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John But we were all making that joke about its road trip after that keynote. So in this keynote

⏹️ ▶️ John there was where the heck was it maybe in like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey oh it’s one of the labels in the

⏹️ ▶️ John finder I think. Uh okay. Like you know they showed a finder window with a bunch of labels

⏹️ ▶️ John and one of the labels was its road trip and I thought that was neat because whatever they’re making a joke but the thing is

⏹️ ▶️ John it was Apple making the joke. That Apple was this is sort of like it’s a low

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a low bar but it’s one of the things that I’ve seen Apple do recently, it

⏹️ ▶️ John makes, you know, it’s an admission of engagement with the community. Because Apple didn’t intentionally make its road

⏹️ ▶️ John trip a thing, it was an accident and the community latched onto it. And by doing this, Apple is acknowledging, hey community,

⏹️ ▶️ John we see you, we know you’re out there, we know we made a goof, and we know it was funny,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we know you made it funny. And we are reflecting that back to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which is a rare thing for them, because normal Apple would be like, alright, have your fun, but we’re never going to reference our mistake again,

⏹️ ▶️ John why would we reference our own mistake? Why Why would we acknowledge that it’s a meme that was invented in the outside community? We’ll just move on and

⏹️ ▶️ John pretend it never happened just like we did in the video where we corrected it. So I thought that was a nice glimmer of

⏹️ ▶️ John hope that Apple sees and recognizes the community and is willing to do

⏹️ ▶️ John frivolous things to reflect ourselves back.

RIP AIM, ICQ, etc. in Messages

⏹️ ▶️ Casey My buddy Sam Gross tweeted sometime in the last week, hey, messages in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey macOS Mojave, Mojave, Mojave, Mojave, I always second guess it. Mojave, long E.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, messages in macOS Mojave supports iMessage and nothing else, rest in peace, Yahoo Messenger,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey AIM, Google Chat, via Jabber, ICQ, et cetera. Now most of these are actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dead

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John anyway. Yeah, exactly. Did the AIM shut down? So let’s say

⏹️ ▶️ John Yahoo Messenger is dying soon, like they announced that it’s dying, right? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ICQ I think died like 50 years ago. I think aim shut down last year.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought I think he was still a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So I

⏹️ ▶️ John think I’m is thank you I think ice cues gone and so is aim

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can download it right now new icq for Mac OS 10

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Fake I could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey swear. It’s still a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John I could swear. It’s all thing. Google. Chat is definitely still a thing. Is it though?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah Time and I have to learn how to hide it in every new version

⏹️ ▶️ John They really I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google Plus was there for a while too and that wasn’t really

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco ever they

⏹️ ▶️ John got rid of yeah Google buzz. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I assure you for those for the parts

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of my company that are not on Slack, which is basically everything that’s not engineering. Google chat is still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m so sorry. So anyway, one one nice heuristic to help you remember how to say Mojave correctly is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Mojave sounds fancy. Mojave sounds like casual, and it’s California.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s always gonna be casual.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah, yeah, I dig it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So

⏹️ ▶️ John Mojave. Yeah, so this, them eliminating all the third party things. Makes sense. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I message is ascendant. Many people have talked frequently about how, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I message is the one vaguely social thing Apple has ever done. Right. Uh, and

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s very popular and it’s a very commonly used application and it’s better than SMS and we’re all happy

⏹️ ▶️ John we have it. So, and so forth. And the other ones are all dying and it’s just like Apple to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John why are we even supporting these anymore? Everyone wants, everyone has an iPhone wants to use I message anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John just ditch them. It’ll make the app simpler. And I’m pretty much on board with that even though I have accounts

⏹️ ▶️ John on all these services.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It also just might be like you know from a basic software development standpoint one of the big issues that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple had between iOS and the Mac is that the Mac version of messages supports a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very small subset of what the iOS version supports. So if they were going to do something like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to improve that it would probably be a lot easier in a messages app that only supported iMessage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco instead of having to special case the entire UI for all these other services while they are also working heavily on

⏹️ ▶️ John it. talk about that topic either later in the show or in the next show. I have

⏹️ ▶️ John more to say on that specific topic.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dun dun dun. Sent with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lasers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, right. I always forget that’s a thing and then somebody will send me something like, Bye!

APFS for Simulator testing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Renaud Leinart writes, I just realized that Xcode 10’s device simulator

⏹️ ▶️ Casey clones, which make parallel testing possible, probably rely on APFS fast snapshotting capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in order to instantly copy the master simulator’s quote-unquote template. Thus, the APFS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey transition is starting to bear its fruits. I know someone who’s probably excited about that. Tell me about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, Marco. John, tell me more.

⏹️ ▶️ John I want this to be true.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, here we go. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve saw the demo of like, look, we can run a bunch of simulators in parallel and run multiple test suites and like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s all cool and everything. And it makes sense to me that this would be an efficient way to implement that. But I have

⏹️ ▶️ John no idea if that’s how they actually implement it. I hope it is because I agree that

⏹️ ▶️ John APFS has many abilities that can be, uh, they can lead to advances

⏹️ ▶️ John like this. Things that you couldn’t even conceive of doing. Let’s say like these templates are like 300 megabytes and you want to make 12 copies. 12 copies

⏹️ ▶️ John of a 300 megabyte file in HFS plus would take you forever and an APFS you can do it instantly and

⏹️ ▶️ John they can slowly diverge to each from each other with copy and write semantics and so that would be super

⏹️ ▶️ John cool and I really hope that’s how they’re doing it if they’re actually copying 300 megabyte files 12 times or if the

⏹️ ▶️ John files only 4 megabytes and just copies real fast because SSDs, I’ll be sad.

iOS 12 beta

Chapter iOS 12 beta image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS 12 pre-release reports. Okay, so I got a problem. I need an intervention.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m traveling sometime soon, and I really don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to be traveling on beta software. It just seems like a poor choice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, so don’t do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I want Memoji, Memoji, Memoji, whatever they’re called. I want Memoji so bad. So do it, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fine. Oh, don’t tell, but you’re supposed to be, you see, this is why I can’t go to you, Marco, because you are the best worst influence

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve ever met in my entire life. What I really want to do is install iOS 12 on my carry phone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t want to, my brain is saying no, but my future Memoji saying, oh hells

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yes. So I don’t know what to do. And the reason this is an issue, this is a real issue

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is because everything I’ve heard is that iOS 12 is without comparison,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey far and away, the first beta is far and away the best first beta

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever. The customer sat on the beta is blow away. I ain’t gotta hate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey myself for saying that, but I couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know someone said blow away in this in this.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It was in the talk show. John O is in

⏹️ ▶️ John the talk show live. Someone said blow away. I felt like throwing something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I felt like I’m like, I see I kind of charming. I’m like, Oh, I miss Scott forestal like I because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like we haven’t heard Apple say blow away since Scott was fired.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that true? I don’t think I don’t know about that. Like I think it’s kind of creepy, though. It’s like when

⏹️ ▶️ John the ET, as they call themselves, executive team, talk amongst themselves and a word like that spreads

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just in a single group of friends,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And then years later, they’re still saying blow away, but I’m assuming no one

⏹️ ▶️ John else in the world is except for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco senior leadership at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s natural. It happens all the time. I see it happen at work, but it’s a little bit weird to see that one come slingshotting back and

⏹️ ▶️ John go, whoa, blow away. Blow

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco away is an adjective.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know it was always such a clumsy, awkward thing to say that way anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Someone needs to track that down. We need an etymologist to find the cultural origin

⏹️ ▶️ John of blowaway as an adjective at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Maybe it’s all Silicon Valley. I don’t know where it came from.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh man, that’s tremendous. Anyway, what was I trying to say? I don’t even know anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You were saying beta 1 stability is blowaway.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Oh yes, that’s right.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was 12, the not even like the first public beta, but like what they release a WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ John like, hey, get out of your seats, go down to the labs, download from little, you know, epoxy on Ethernet connectors and get

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 12 for WC developers. Everybody says, not only does it not crash and

⏹️ ▶️ John mostly functions, but that, like they said in the keynote, it’s fast, it’s fast on your old phone is fast

⏹️ ▶️ John on your new phone. Everybody’s raving about it. And I’m in a similar situation to Casey, I’m not considering putting it

⏹️ ▶️ John on my phone, because I’m not, you know, that deluded, but I have strongly considered putting it on my iPad. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John holding out and saying, just wait for the first public beta because everyone says it’s great. And I don’t think I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John ever heard this about an iOS beta before.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, you have to put on your main phone so you could do Memoji if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John have an iPhone X. That’s the problem. That’s the thing. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t care about Memoji. You do.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John come on, man. You should. I think they’re creepy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have it. I’m using my iPhone 7 right now, and it is already

⏹️ ▶️ Casey installed on there. But I don’t even know why I did this in retrospect, because the one thing I actually really want to try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the stupid Memoji that I know I’m going to be obsessed with. And so I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t know what to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I really want to put it on my carry

⏹️ ▶️ John phone. It sounds like you’re drunkenly saying emoji when you say Memoji. I love those Memoji.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s supposed to be Me-moji because they’re about, it’s like, just imagine a Nintendo MII Memoji.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, sorry. Well, anyway, the point I’m driving at, though, is I need someone whose name is not Mark Warman, because you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the best worst influence ever, to tell me that this is a terrible idea and beta 2 might be just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a dumpster fire and not to do it even though I really want to

⏹️ ▶️ John wait for the first public bid at least for your phone please

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other thing the other thing that’s easy to say so Marco is sending me a message of his memoji

⏹️ ▶️ Casey smiling at me right now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco real-time follow-up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could do this to just think you could respond with your own little cute case you know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stop it well but then the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John thing you

⏹️ ▶️ John got your tall hair but you all have the same nose and your face will be round

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no they have different there’s different face

⏹️ ▶️ John shapes and different nose shapes. I haven’t seen much variation. I haven’t tried it myself obviously but and the ones that people

⏹️ ▶️ John have posted I haven’t seen much variation maybe everyone just always picks the ideal not the ideal but the the most emoji

⏹️ ▶️ John looking face.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well it’s hard it’s also like it’s hard to judge if you’re if you’re making it for yourself it’s hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to even know like what shape is my face exactly. I can tell you what shape your face is. Yeah because you’re not me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like. No I know what shape my face is it’s not round. Round is not the shape of my head. Long,

⏹️ ▶️ John tall, big nose. I know what shape my face is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now Jelly is sending me Memoji stickers and IMS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s not Memoji, stop saying that. Sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sorry, sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John sorry. I love

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Memoji.

⏹️ ▶️ John Memoji’s great. Think you’re better than me?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let me tell y’all about my Memojis. My Memojis are fancy. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so the point is I want Memojis in my life. God, I’m gonna get made fun of so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John badly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want me emojis in my life and I can’t have them and I want them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everybody out there who has Casey on iMessage, please

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey send him an emoji.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Please, no.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should all build, everyone build an emoji that you think looks like Casey. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey plenty of art on the internet for you to find. That,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am on board with. You can tweet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me or the show. I am on board with this because if we’ve learned anything from my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me on the Nintendo Wii and or Switch, I have learned that John Syracuse is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quite the me critic and he will not fancy my memoji. So I need

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some help on this one. Oh man.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of course, there’s no way to share it, right? If someone builds a cool looking Casey one, they can’t like literally…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, there isn’t. You have to like take note of all the settings. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess you could just like, you know, use it as a reference when building your own, but they

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey should be shareable just like me’s are.

⏹️ ▶️ John If Nintendo makes something shareable and Apple doesn’t, that’s bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now Federico’s sending me messages. Stop everybody. God you’re all terrible influences.

⏹️ ▶️ John What shape is Federico’s face? It’s beard-shaped.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which one of these hairs is the Casey hair?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t find a good Casey hair in the 10 seconds. I played I might have been your phone It might have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one that’s kind of backward. It’s like the inverse of your hair direction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Can you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you flip your hair direction the other way so we can start looking more like an emoji?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John The

⏹️ ▶️ John selfie camera that reverses everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Fair point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, there isn’t a good one There’s some close kind of close ones.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is gonna be this is gonna be my bazell moment, isn’t it? Oh totally Yes, not good. This is not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good. Can we move on?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That’s because

⏹️ ▶️ John me emoji is a made-up word. So you’re fine We’re just trying to nip it in the bud before you start saying emoji for

⏹️ ▶️ John the rest of your life

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m working on the golf r i’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John making

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slow progress on it slow slow

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John slow

⏹️ ▶️ John There you go. That’s another real word that you should work on i’m working on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it All right. So so marco all kidding aside you’re running the beta and you’re sending me the the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey memojis you’re sending me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco memojis and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every time you say it’s wrong in a different way.

⏹️ ▶️ John He was

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey intentionally saying it wrong. That one was delivered. The earlier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ones were not delivered. That one was delivered. Anyways, you’re sending me your memojis. How is the stability

⏹️ ▶️ Casey though? Because you’re living with it. You’ve experienced this. So how are we doing?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everyone is unique snowflake. Everyone’s phone is uniquely different and everything, but I will say that it’s been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally fine for me. That being said, though, a beta is hard because it’s unpredictable, at least at least like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the GM versions. You can be sure that like they’ve been pretty extensively

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tested on a lot of people’s devices and the standards are pretty high for them, usually, unless they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high Sierra. So you could, but like with the beta, like this beta might be fine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today and yesterday and the day before that and then tomorrow it might just break all of a sudden and you don’t really know that it’s and then also like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know this is beta one when beta when it gets updated to beta two beta two might be a lot worse like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just part of the beta cycle is like every version of it is a new gamble and you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t know what you’re getting until it’s too late really. So you know in the last couple years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the betas have actually been pretty reasonable to run on your main phone like you know we all we all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say like you shouldn’t do it because ideally you shouldn’t like if you don’t need to be running the beta for any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reason yeah you probably shouldn’t be running it, but we want to run it anyway and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can say from that point of view it’s been can find the only bug I’ve noticed is that the group notifications

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in notification Center sometimes will show the sometimes duplicate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a notification like in two different stacks instead of showing what should have been on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the second stack so so I’m actually not seeing certain notifications as they come in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that it just so happens I don’t care about notifications so it doesn’t matter but but if you are a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notification user which is almost everybody you might care about that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco otherwise you know install it if you feel like being a little bit reckless. If you don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Memoji right now, don’t father.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Aftershocks. You know, it was a really hot day today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I wanted to go for a big dog walk. And because I knew it was going to be hot and because I wanted to hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the world around me, the headphones I picked to listen to podcasts on while I was going for my big walk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today, of course I went with the Aftershocks Trex Air. The Trex Air are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bone conduction headphones. And what this means is nothing sits inside your ear and there’s no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big pad that goes on top of or around your ear. Instead, there are these little tiny

⏹️ ▶️ Marco transducers that rest next to your ear and they send tiny little vibrations through

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your cheekbones so that your inner ear picks them up, but without having the whole world hear them as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the great thing about this is because nothing is blocking your ear, not only is it great in hot weather because it makes you less sweaty,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you can still hear the sounds of the world around you. They just get added

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to whatever you’re listening to. I’m able to listen to a podcast on my dog walks and also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still hear say if a car is coming. There’s lots of different scenarios but this is great you know walking, running,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco biking even a lot of things outside. Also just doing things around the house it’s really nice because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say you want to listen to podcasts while you’re getting chores done around the house and you want to also hear like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if someone knocks on your door or if your dog barks or something like that you can do all that with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Aftershocks bone conduction headphones. And on top of that, the Aftershocks Trex Air are also just really good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Bluetooth headphones. They’re wireless, they have great range, they have great reception, great battery life,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re waterproof, it’s just wonderful. They’re a wonderful product. I highly suggest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you check out the Aftershocks Trex Air wireless bone conduction headphones. I use them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost every day in the summertime and even a lot in the fall and winter too. They’re just wonderful headphones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially for hearing the world around you in addition to your podcast. test.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco Check it out today at and use code ATP30

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get $30 off the weightless wireless Trex Air. Thank you so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much to Aftershocks for once again sponsoring our show and for keeping my ears nice and cool and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco open while I listen to podcasts on the go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I believe I mentioned two weeks ago that I had acquired with the release of iOS 11.4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AirPlay 2 and stereo pairing, I had acquired two HomePods after

⏹️ ▶️ Marco resisting the HomePod from its release until now, because I now have to do a lot of HomePod testing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of AirPlay 2 with Overcast. And the reason I got two is because I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be very heavily doing it this summer, so I needed one for basically my desk here, and one for my desk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the vacation house. However, I haven’t been there yet to drop it off, so I have two HomePods

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sitting here, decided you know what while they’re here let me try stereo pairing plus a few people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had said that they’ve had weird like out of sync sounding bugs with stereo pairs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with overcast in particular so I thought okay let me test this I got you know actually see if this is if this is the case

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or not and if I can do anything about it the answer is probably not but anyway so I had the chance to finally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco test not only one home pod but two home pods and to see how they sound in stereo now having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just the one before and I had I had it like in the kitchen first and I brought into the office I was pretty impressed with the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sound quality it wasn’t like you know life-changing or anything but it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very impressive it also isn’t a very good value necessarily like $350 can get a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of good speakers so but you know it was a very good sounding speaker but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it still ultimately sounded like a fancy version of an echo you know it still was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trying to fill a room with one point and that’s hard to do. So the stereo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pair takes what was a, you know, it sounds good in a mono

⏹️ ▶️ Marco non-pair, I guess, a mono unity. A stereo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pair sounds great, really great. And it’s not just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of, you know, certain instruments coming from one side or the other, it’s because it fills a space better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, we are accustomed to hearing, like if we have like a room like that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger than a bathroom that you want to fill with sound you do it with two speakers usually at least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so we are accustomed to how that’s supposed to sound and when you should when you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have multiple points broadcasting it just sounds better even if they were playing the exact same signal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like if they’re just both playing a mono signal it would still sound better because it would fill the room better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it would come from multiple points it would have wider soundstage and everything else but But because they’re also doing a stereo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco signal now, it basically lets them shine as not having to rely so much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on trying to like reflect sound across walls and everything to try to fake a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wider sound projection, but to actually just have one in the first place. To have a wide projection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of sound, that way they can, it seems like they’re maybe turning down the weird processing when they’re in stereo mode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just playing really good sound. Things sound the way they’re supposed to, like it isn’t doing some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird blend, things that are supposed to come from the left do come from the left, etc.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s great sounding and I and I have it on my desk now there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have them like Jeff Foxworthy style. They are on top of my other speakers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and which actually is really nice because it puts them right at ear level, which is exactly where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want them, but these make incredible computer speakers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco These would be the best computer speakers in the world except for one small flaw

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides that there are $700 for the pair that’s that’s that’s a that’s a bigger flaw but there’s one flaw

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even bigger that money can’t solve and that is that you currently can’t use them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as computer speakers or many kinds of speakers really because not only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is there no input on them and not only are they not Bluetooth, but also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iTunes can’t send to stereo pairs. Seriously? Yes, iTunes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sees them both as individual speakers. So and so you try to send

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to either one it just does just that one. So even though like so you can send from your iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can have iPhone you know as your as your sound source but not iTunes and if you wanted to like say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch a video on your computer and have that come through it I I think maybe you could trick

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AirPlay into helping you out there, but it would be awfully clunky. Basically, you know, the Mac doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem to have AirPlay 2 support in any any apps that I know of. So that’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unfortunate because if there were a way to conveniently make these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my computer speakers, they would be the best computer speakers I’ve ever heard at any price.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Unfortunately, They’re limited by their lack of input

⏹️ ▶️ Marco variety and lack of input options really. And it’s really a shame because like compared to anything else where they really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco excel like you know I have I have my little paradigm Adam speakers which are I think it was about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco $300 for the pair plus I had to get like a little tiny amp to like power them on my desk that was another 200 maybe. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was a long time ago and the paradigm Adams sound excellent. I’ve never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco found a pair of regular bookshelf speakers that sounds better for the price than paradigm atoms but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they are traditional speakers not only do you need an amp and they have a powered version it sucks don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get it it’s not the same thing anyway so they sound great but they also have a clear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sweet spot because they’re just regular speaker drivers so then just regular ones facing forward so like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually using them on a desk is kind of too little it’s a little too short distance for them like unless you like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really angle them towards you and tilt them up and everything and there’s a pretty small sweet spot the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The HomePod doesn’t have a clear sweet spot because it broadcasts from a bunch of different tweeters and the subs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just fire I think up or down. It kind of fills a bigger area so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great with the HomePod. Also my regular speakers really don’t have strong

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bass. They really need a subwoofer. I don’t have one but they could benefit from one. The HomePod has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not only strong bass but almost too strong bass. pretty it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty thumpy although it is honestly it is a it’s a pleasing and fun

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tuning it’s not accurate it’s not neutral it’s nothing like that but it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fun it’s what beats headphones wish they sounded like but they don’t beats

⏹️ ▶️ Marco head like if you put too much bass in headphones what you tend to get is like boominess

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and when you have good bass from a subwoofer you get thumpiness what you want is the thump not the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco boom you know because that’s that sounds better and the home pod provides that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for its size it gives a remarkable amount of clean thumpy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bass I’ve never heard anything like that from something this size that sits on top of a desk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just a shame that they would make such amazing desktop speakers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if my Mac I’m not even asking for like a game console or a Blu-ray player here, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if my Mac could output sound to them, that’s all I would need.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it can’t, and that’s unfortunate. Also a few other minor niggles about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stereo pairing mode if anybody was curious about trying it. It seems to be working kind of like AirPods,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where most of the time it gives the illusion that it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a stereo pair acting as one. But there are a few holes in the abstraction. So for instance,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when they’ve been off for a while and you tell it to play first of all Siri only responds from one of them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and okay fine that’s weird but fine when they’ve been on for a while and and it starts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to play that one that that responds to see like the primary one which in my case the left one that will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco start playing for like a half second first before the right one wakes up and rises

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh you want to me okay please I will turn on now here we go so like you hear the sound

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first out of one channel and then the second channel like warms up and gets there after a second or so And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s, I have had occasional, like once or twice, split second

⏹️ ▶️ Marco moments where it did seem like they were out of sync also. So very much like the AirPods in that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. They just seem like they’re working with the same technology of like, these are two separate devices that are most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the time working together as a perfect stereo pair, but sometimes you see a little bit of a seam somewhere. Other than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that though, they are really great. And I just, I hope that Apple broadens this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco product’s versatility to the point where I can use it for more because Siri is fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s still not where the Amazon Echo was three years ago. But if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are primarily using it for music, this could be a really great product if it was easier to get your music

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So real-time follow-up from Zach Hall. In iTunes, it is possible to do stereo pairing. How?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So he has tweeted at us, I will put a link to this in the show notes, but the little like AirPlay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey icon, just like you would see on iOS, if you click that apparently and you look down

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the switch to section. Oh, wait a minute.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And in this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey particular screenshot, it says office home pod, but there’s a picture of two of them. So even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey though it says singular office home pod, there’s a picture of two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey home pods there, and that would apparently do the trick.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m gonna test this out right now. Loading. What is it loading? Not playing. This is like when when you plug

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in says not charging. This is like that’s not helpful. I asked you to charge.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thank you for that. Okay. Oh, wait. There it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, thanks, Zach

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hall. That is deeply unobvious to me, having only seen the picture because he said to me, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you just have to use this switch to menu and that you just need to click that. I’m looking at this menu

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m like, I have no freaking clue where on this menu I need to click and it wasn’t until he said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it still doesn’t solve the problem of, you know, that it’s only iTunes. It’s still it has like a little bit of a delay still.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like if this could if the Mac could just output your system audio as an audio output

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device to a pair of home pods. Yes, they’re expensive now. But first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all, the computer is expensive to a lot of Apple customers don’t care and mobile anyway. Second of all, a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other desktop systems that are high end are similarly expensive, like from all like the, the, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco b&w stuff like that. And third of all, they’re not going to be expensive forever. Like there’s going to be more models.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I got I hope I hope they add this with with future versions of Mac named after various casually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pronounced places in California because they do sound great and they would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the best desktop speakers. If only I could make my desktop output sound to them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Do you remember the rumor somewhere online that was saying that the HomePod

⏹️ ▶️ John which we had heard had been in development for a long time and just now emerged, um,

⏹️ ▶️ John was originally not designed to be like a, uh, you know, person in a tube,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, cylinder thing, but was designed as the sound system

⏹️ ▶️ John for the supposed Apple television set.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did hear that rumor.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t remember where I saw it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think about that one and like, you know, we all know the Apple television set rumors from ages ago and never

⏹️ ▶️ John produced a television. And I suppose it’s conceivable, but kind of to Marco’s point

⏹️ ▶️ John about the stereo pair, having one of them for your TV, like where would you put it? Like

⏹️ ▶️ John if it was off to the side, it would always kind of sound like the sound is coming from the side. It would

⏹️ ▶️ John just be weird. If you put it in the middle, it would have to be like, it would block the TV unless you put it under it and you can’t really put it

⏹️ ▶️ John over it. And then if they were gonna have two of them, are they gonna add $700 MSRP to the television set and why would

⏹️ ▶️ John they be separate? So I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco not sure I buy that theory,

⏹️ ▶️ John but who knows what goes on inside Apple. I mean, maybe that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason they didn’t make it, because they realized this is a dumb idea for a TV speaker. But apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you get two of them for the low, low price of $700, you get some good stereo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco speakers. No, I mean, ultimately, like, if you’re setting these up to fill a moderately sized

⏹️ ▶️ Marco room with sound, like, pretty much everybody’s, like, living room would qualify for this. I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plan to get two, because it really does sound that much better, and it really does fill a room that much better. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want it to be what most of us have used Amazon Echos for, which is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a thing in the kitchen, you know, or like in like the middle section of a house to be like kind of a personal assistant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to answer voice requests and not so much music or if there’s not room for two of them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, then you can just get one, but it sounds so vastly better with two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that for anybody out there who doesn’t have one, it might be thinking about it really plan

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get to if you want to fill a room with music.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s talk about WBDC. There’s all sorts, this is kind of like a smorgasbord of random quick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hits. So let’s start with AR. They Sherlocked, what is it, MeasureKit, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I always thought was an odd name for an app, but it’s a great app. They Sherlocked MeasureKit, which is an app wherein you can use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey AR today to measure things.

⏹️ ▶️ John They didn’t Sherlock measure kit. They Sherlocked all the other AR based measurement apps

⏹️ ▶️ John that

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey are out there in the store

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But measure kit was the only one that I’d ever heard of really I’m sure there are others But that’s the only one that I knew of that people used

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah I want to talk about this just because you know It’s interesting which applications Apple decides to make like

⏹️ ▶️ John what they decide to Sherlock Obviously it makes sense for them to make an app with AR

⏹️ ▶️ John Another app where they are to you know to highlight their work on AR and measurement apps are pretty simple one

⏹️ ▶️ John And it got me thinking about, um, if people don’t get as worked up as they used to about Sherlocking,

⏹️ ▶️ John certainly the original Sherlocking was much more egregious than this. People can look that up. I don’t want to delve

⏹️ ▶️ John into it now, but there was a program called Watson and then there was a program called Sherlock and it was pretty obvious and pretty rude.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, um, there are, there are upsides and downsides to Sherlocking, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So the downsides are obvious. Before I was selling a measurement app and now everyone can get one free with their phone. I’m assuming this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is free. It doesn’t come with the phone or is it just in the app store?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I honestly don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, the point is Apple can afford to make this for free and maybe you can’t if it was the app that you were selling

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was super popular. So that’s bad. But the upside is that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple tends not to like they tend to make applications like this and uh sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of you know call it good after it has basic functionality like they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John relentlessly year after year improving their measurement application that they offer for free, right? And so

⏹️ ▶️ John by offering this application, it could be that Apple makes a larger portion of the population aware

⏹️ ▶️ John that measurement apps are a thing and that it leads more people

⏹️ ▶️ John to your application, which is like the pro version of a measurement app that does more fancy things that Apple’s never going

⏹️ ▶️ John to implement. And all of a sudden you have a bunch of new customers who previously didn’t even know you or measurement apps existed at

⏹️ ▶️ John all, but find themselves hungry for a better one once they reach the limits of the Apple one. I I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John which one of those is the case for measurement applications, but I thought

⏹️ ▶️ John it was interesting that I didn’t hear pretty much any outcry from

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple deciding to offer a free application that does things that a bunch of store apps already

⏹️ ▶️ John do. And I think it may be because people recognize the potential

⏹️ ▶️ John upside more than they used to. Now, we’ll wait two years and see if those measurement applications that were previously selling

⏹️ ▶️ John for 99 cents are all dead or have gone to free with in-app gambling or something.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Measure is included on the phone. I’m using my iPhone 7 right now, and I don’t know how well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is really working, but that’s okay, it’s a dark room.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve tried it a couple times and it has failed pretty significantly. They said last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year when they introduced ARKit, they said that measurements would be roughly within 5% accuracy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The ones I’ve taken so far with the Measure app have been like 30% off. So maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m doing it wrong or something, but I would take any measurement with it as a novelty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and not as an actual useful bit of information.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s pretty cool. So I’m measuring my magic keyboard and it snaps with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey haptics when you’re hitting what it thinks is a corner. That’s very neat.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love that everybody on Twitter is sending you Memojis of you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Including you via iMessage. Of course. Jelly has been sending me some.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am kind of happy that we all picked the same hair. That is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey true, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even though it isn’t the perfect Casey hair, But I think it’s the closest of what we have.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, Jelly’s critique of yours, which he probably didn’t want me to share with you, but hey, whatever, is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my hair is too light and my eyes are too round, according to Jelly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did lighten your hair from the default. Because I’m basically mostly in your avatar picture,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that’s what I’m staring at right now, and it’s easier to look at that than to remember what you look like. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we have a solution for this problem. We could do this crazy thing. Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey word.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Whoa,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Skype has video? Skype has video? Skype has video. Who knew?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John No. N-O.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Do not want.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what’s funny? In the, in the, what have we been doing this like five years of this show, I don’t think I’ve ever turned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my camera while recording

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco this show. We’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never done this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Until now. Now we see

⏹️ ▶️ John how you’re sitting in darkness, wearing your best undershirt.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I am wearing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my best white t-shirt, as you said. Look at us. We’re looking at each other. It’s a whole new world. Oh yeah, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I can’t handle it. It’s too

⏹️ ▶️ Casey weird. I can’t handle it. It’s too weird. Anyway, this show is a total train

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wreck. But that’s okay. So what else is going on with Sherlocking and AR stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do we care?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey We’re done with that topic.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, sorry, I was distracted by my Memojis. Multiple faces

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco for iOS 12. Every time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s different. It’s so good. Now I’m amused by it. My own customer sat on my own

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mispronunciation is blow away. I gotta tell you. Now beating that joke to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco death. Anyway…

Multiple Face ID faces

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Multiple faces in iOS 12 Face ID. There is a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey alternative appearance option for iOS, for Face ID and iOS 12.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have not yet tried this myself. I have heard reports that other people have been able to set this up for like a spouse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that. I think this is actually supposed to be used for,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh man, I don’t want to get this wrong. And I don’t recall the head covering. What’s the name of the head covering? I really don’t want to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use the wrong word here. Hijab? Yes, thank you. It’s for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people that have, well, I shouldn’t say have to, that choose to use hijabs. I hope I pronounced that right, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so sorry. And so you could have one face ID orientation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or setup, if you will, with and one without. And I think that that seems to me to be the right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the truest intention of this particular ability. But you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bet that as soon as I get this, I’m gonna try to set this up for Aaron and vice versa, because I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have no particular reason why I wouldn’t want her to be able to unlock my phone. I know not everyone is like that, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s fine. But for me, I don’t think she even really cares. It’s just for me, it’s easier if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m driving or something, I can just hand her my phone and say, hey, can you send a text to Marco or John about blah, blah, blah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey blah. And so I would like to have that ability. And I am curious to see if this works. Again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have heard rumblings that it does work, but I have not tried

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it for

⏹️ ▶️ John myself. So I’ve got a report for you on this.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, excellent.

⏹️ ▶️ John First of all, I’m, it’s interesting to me that the option in the settings says,

⏹️ ▶️ John set up an alternative appearance. And as you said, it’s, it’s a reasonable feature to add.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, sometimes I have an alternative as far as as far as face ID is concerned, I look different enough that it’s confused. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I want to set up an alternative appearance for myself. But when they phrase it that way, I was like,

⏹️ ▶️ John are they trying to discourage the idea of letting your spouse open it, they don’t say set up an alternative

⏹️ ▶️ John appearance or a second person. right so i bet a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ John will see that option and dismiss it as not what they want they’re like oh i want my spouse to

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to do it i don’t want to set up an alternative appearance for myself so i was curious as to whether it would work or not and i tried it

⏹️ ▶️ John at wwc and i can now unlock matt panzerino’s phone with my face

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it works

⏹️ ▶️ John just fine

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey now here’s the thing about

⏹️ ▶️ John it uh once you set it up the only way that we were able to determine in the brief

⏹️ ▶️ John brief two seconds that we were looking at this to like, all right, we, we should delete my face off your phone.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I can’t know what up your phone and steal all tech crunches secrets or whatever, um, is to

⏹️ ▶️ John reset face ID. It’s not like touch ID where you see like the individual fingers and you can delete the individual fingers.

⏹️ ▶️ John The option after that is reset face ID. And I was wondering when, you know, when the iPhone 10 first came

⏹️ ▶️ John out, like can they not support more than one face? Is it a performance issue? Is it a storage issue? Uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously it wasn’t a storage issue because they didn’t add more storage to the phone by putting iOS 12 on it. But it could have

⏹️ ▶️ John been a performance issue and now they’ve dealt with it. But it does feel kind of limiting that if you add

⏹️ ▶️ John that second face and want to ditch it, you’ve got to start completely over with face ID, especially since that might. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John remove all it’s learning that it’s done about your various appearances, right? You have to reset it and start over from scratch.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, but anyway, I’m excited to be able to unlock my wife’s phone with my face because typing

⏹️ ▶️ John in her very long passcode is tiresome.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. That’s the problem I have is Erin knows my passcode, but it’s something like 10, 15, 20 characters. I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly how many. It’s long enough that it’s a pain in the butt even for me. And that’s why it’s so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice to have face or touch ID. And that’s why it’s such a pain with face ID that she can’t unlock my phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey without typing this obnoxiously long password.

Mojave Dark Mode

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tell me about Mojave dark mode what’s going on with that?

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s another thing that I think we didn’t talk about at all on our live show, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it was a major Selling feature I guess we didn’t talk about it because we weren’t really surprised by it and didn’t feel like there was much

⏹️ ▶️ John to say but after that live show I went to the Mojave dark mode wwc sessions

⏹️ ▶️ John and I just went to them because I just want to see cool screenshots and stuff and I thought well whatever this will be a fluff session

⏹️ ▶️ John but as usual Apple surprised me with the the depth of

⏹️ ▶️ John the thought behind dark mode, which I love these sessions that they’re rare, but there are WDC sessions

⏹️ ▶️ John where they’re not just like, here’s the API’s, here’s how you use them. But it’s where Apple explains their thinking,

⏹️ ▶️ John why did we do it the way we did it, right? And that really doesn’t have, in most cases, much of

⏹️ ▶️ John a developer impact. But it’s just it’s like explaining our thinking like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this doesn’t influence how you do things, developers, but we want you to understand why we did our things the way we

⏹️ ▶️ John did them. sometimes a lesson like uses lesson in your application, but sometimes it’s just like we want to explain ourselves like

⏹️ ▶️ John the people behind it want to explain themselves. They want to show how thoughtful they were in dark mode. The dark

⏹️ ▶️ John point sessions are a good example of that. At least the first one, maybe the second one is more about how to change your app. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ John so what, what did they do that, you know, that you might not have thought of? You just saw

⏹️ ▶️ John the keynote presentation. Well, as I think, as we discussed a couple of times

⏹️ ▶️ John previously, like a naive implementation of dark mode is a problem because the the way the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac distinguishes windows from each other is with a drop shadow. And if all your windows are black,

⏹️ ▶️ John for instance, how do you do the drop shadow? Does the shadow become light? Like it’s like a,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, outer glow instead of an outer shadow. Um, how do you deal with

⏹️ ▶️ John having sufficient contrast or showing colors against black versus white? Having text,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just make the text white, light, and the background dark. But what about colors? Uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John how well do they show up on black? What about transparency? Colors with transparency? How do you make that work?

⏹️ ▶️ John How do you distinguish the edges of windows, even if you figure out the shadow thing? And so, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll put the link to the session, the show notes, I encourage everyone to watch it. It’s not that long, and it’s definitely not particularly

⏹️ ▶️ John technical. But there is a surprising amount of detail that they go

⏹️ ▶️ John into and exactly how they made this work. One aspect of it made me think about and

⏹️ ▶️ John we didn’t talk about this much either, but I’ve I’ve heard it mentioned at the WWDC. Why no

⏹️ ▶️ John dark mode for iOS? And we were talking about in terms of OLED like, oh, if you have black and all it looks

⏹️ ▶️ John great because it turns off the pixels and it’s true black, right? But dark mode does not on the Mac does not

⏹️ ▶️ John use true black almost anywhere. So that advantage of wouldn’t dark mode look great

⏹️ ▶️ John on iOS on an OLED phone, because we get true blacks is not really an advantage

⏹️ ▶️ John because almost nothing in dark mode, at least on the Mac is true black for the reasons I stated before,

⏹️ ▶️ John that you lose the ability to do any kind of contrast. Now there’s not overlapping windows on iOS, so maybe it’s less of a

⏹️ ▶️ John problem there. Maybe they’ll still do it. But certainly on the Mac, you know, although until we get our eight K Oled

⏹️ ▶️ John screen with our Mac Pro next year, uh, the old thing is not an issue. Um, the, the things

⏹️ ▶️ John that tickled me about how they dealt with this is, uh, as they

⏹️ ▶️ John took pains to point out, although I think it’s a little bit ridiculous people would think this, it’s not just an inversion of light

⏹️ ▶️ John mode. I mean, if anyone has ever used the accessibility feature to literally invert the colors on the Mac screen, they

⏹️ ▶️ John realize it doesn’t look particularly attractive. It’s an accessibility feature, but it’s not really

⏹️ ▶️ John like, let’s make it look cool. Like it looks like a film negative for people who are old enough to remember

⏹️ ▶️ John what that is. Um, but they made things dark and everything is kind of a shade of gray.

⏹️ ▶️ John And to make the windows distinguishable, they made the shadows much darker than they are before. And the dark shadows have

⏹️ ▶️ John a fighting chance to show up against the not so dark, dark windows. But they also had

⏹️ ▶️ John to add a little like single hairline pixel glow around the perimeter of all the dark

⏹️ ▶️ John mode windows so you could pick out the edges of the windows against the shadow, not just that shadow against the windows behind

⏹️ ▶️ John it. There’s a bunch of new dynamic colors that you have to set in your application. If you want

⏹️ ▶️ John your application to be dark mode savvy, there is a surprising amount of stuff that you have to do to it. It’s not just flipping a flag

⏹️ ▶️ John and making sure your colors are right. You have to change a lot of things about your app if you really want to make it right. They even go so far as to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John say you’ve got a black and white icon in a toolbar. And in dark mode, I’ll just instead of drawing black

⏹️ ▶️ John text, I’ll you know, instead of drawing a black outline of a house, I’ll draw a white outline of the house. And they were like, but you just changed

⏹️ ▶️ John your house that used to be a white house into a black house, it should still be a white house. So don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John just invert it, fill in the field with white in the inverted version. So it’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John a white house on a black background. You know, it’s, you can go pretty far down the rabbit hole, trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John make your applications look good in dark, but same thing with vibrancy with the transparency and stuff. They pulled

⏹️ ▶️ John off a pretty amazing feat which I’m not sure that most app

⏹️ ▶️ John developers would be able to pull off of trying to make something look like it’s colored but transparent

⏹️ ▶️ John but on top of black. And we’ve seen it in the screenshots but really look at it. Say you had to do that on your own.

⏹️ ▶️ John With a color picker you would never pick this color. It’s like being a painter. You look at some people

⏹️ ▶️ John doing a painting or whatever and they think, well the mountains are gray and the sky is blue and the trees are green

⏹️ ▶️ John so I’m going to mix up some green paint for the trees and I’ll mix up some gray paint for the mountains

⏹️ ▶️ John and mix up some blue for the sky and you just paint everything as like its intrinsic color

⏹️ ▶️ John but that’s not what the world looks like the trees are actually mostly gray in the distance

⏹️ ▶️ John you they’re slightly green but they’re mostly gray and the ones in the foreground are a little bit more green and the mountain

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t actually gray it’s actually blue on one side and really dark gray on the

⏹️ ▶️ John other and like you know so that’s what they do with with with dark mode they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John paint things the color is supposed to be oh I have I have a black quote-unquote black window I’m gonna take red and put

⏹️ ▶️ John it over there that looks like nothing how do I make the red transparent so that the black shows through the red

⏹️ ▶️ John do I just make the red darker it’s actually a very tricky problem so

⏹️ ▶️ John like take the cup take the eyedropper take like a digital color meter and put it over like a highlighted region and see what

⏹️ ▶️ John color that actually is and just marvel at how it looks like a piece of transparent

⏹️ ▶️ John red plastic from a Transformers box in the 80s laid over a black window when it is neither of those things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I can just say from my experience developing the Overcast black theme on iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really hard to design UIs where a prominent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco background color that’s used often is pure 100% black. It is pretty much impossible to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do a lot of good, clear, complex work that way. And that’s why, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, if you look at iOS apps that succeed with their true black designs on the iPhone 10,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s typically apps that don’t have a lot of depth to their UIs, don’t have a lot of layering where it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, single flat screens that can work. It’s still hard, but it can work. You, but you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, you don’t get shadows even like and you don’t realize how common of design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco element of really small shadow is like, you know, you think of today’s apathetic as being still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very flat and everything, but it’s not and as we get further from iOS 7,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s actually getting less flat over time. And so shadows are very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco commonly used to denote layering. Even if it’s just as simple as a slide over sheet, or a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pop over, or a dialogue box. There’s shadows everywhere. Even to do things like to help

⏹️ ▶️ Marco separate artwork from its background, stuff like that. There’s little shadows and little dark

⏹️ ▶️ Marco borders all around lots of things in UIs. And when your background is pure black,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really hard to make those conventions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to they won’t work. So it’s really hard to find alternatives to those conventions that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are understandable and the look good. It’s a surprisingly hard problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, we also forgot to mention the accent color, which is one of the most fun things that Apple has added

⏹️ ▶️ John since since the classic Mac OS days really like the ability to change the character

⏹️ ▶️ John of your UI independent of light and dark mode, right, because accent colors apply in both. So if you never

⏹️ ▶️ John wanna use dark mode, you still get to use accent colors. And it basically changes like the solid color,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s solid blue in High Sierra and many versions for like, what color is the okay button? Like the cancel button

⏹️ ▶️ John is gray and the okay button is blue, right? You can change that blue to a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of different color choices. Purple, pink, orange, even gray, and that influences everything. The color of radio

⏹️ ▶️ John buttons, check boxes, the little arrow thingy that’s on the side of pop-up menus, and you know, whole nine yards.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that it’s fun, like to be able to customize the appearance of your

⏹️ ▶️ John operating system. You know, no reason other than just aesthetics. What do you like? What mood?

⏹️ ▶️ John What mood are you in? What best matches your desktop background? Stephen Hackett has

⏹️ ▶️ John a nice article about dark mode showing some showing off some of the features I would still suggest watching the sessions because they go into

⏹️ ▶️ John even more detail. And you know, I was this is one of the few sessions where I was watching it. I got

⏹️ ▶️ John that sort of pang of like man if I was doing Mac OS reviews I would spend

⏹️ ▶️ John I would it would be difficult to constrain myself to one quote-unquote page one section for this because

⏹️ ▶️ John I would be doing screenshot after screenshot zoomed in at like the pixel level on every minute detail of how they do

⏹️ ▶️ John it so Stephen’s got screenshots on and his thing as well but

⏹️ ▶️ John I I wish I could click on them and zoom in because I don’t I don’t see the details of these tiny sizes Stephen I need to

⏹️ ▶️ John zoom in we need to have lossless pings that you know native resolution anyway

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean you know it would be theoretically possible to write

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a mini review like post just on this one topic I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe you could write it on some kind of I don’t know what would you call something like that maybe like a web blog

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something like that no no it doesn’t sound right if only there was some place

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some way that you could publish text and images to the world but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without having to write a 25,000 word review. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not what I want to do. Steven already wrote a blog post about it. Yes, I would have

⏹️ ▶️ John done it slightly differently, but he covered the basis. Plus, this is the WWDC session. Plus, I have this big ramble, so I figure like I’ve gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John out of my system, but it would have been fun. Although, like, I also did think about how would you write a full

⏹️ ▶️ John review of Mojave? Because, yes, dark mode is fun, and you’d have a big section about it, and I’d spend a lot of time

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about, you know, know Mars pan stuff eventually but there’s not much there but is there enough

⏹️ ▶️ John you know that my full-fledged OS reviews kind of had a certain number of sections that you expected

⏹️ ▶️ John them to have and recent Mac OS releases have been not as evenly

⏹️ ▶️ John distributed across the feature surface of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OS let’s say yeah but but you know like that’s just self-imposed like you if you wanted to write

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a blog post about just one thing you could you’re allowed to you’re right I

⏹️ ▶️ John could but I don’t want to. It sounds like you kind of do though.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It sounds like

⏹️ ▶️ John I had I said had a pang of regret but one pang does not make a blog post.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you sure?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Have you ever really written a blog post about Mac OS?

⏹️ ▶️ John I wrote a blog post about articles that I’ve written about Mac OS that counts right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No.

⏹️ ▶️ John No. I think it does that’s about Mac OS indirectly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It seems like you’re capable of writing you know quote only a blog post

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it’s about something you consider trivial like bagels or pasta

⏹️ ▶️ John well I had I had a blog at Ars Technica and I ported all those blog things with permission to

⏹️ ▶️ John my hypercritical like her website so if you look there’s a fat bit section you can see many blog posts about Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John OS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay I guess this is before my time knowing you

⏹️ ▶️ John yes it’s right probably was you should go read them some of them are good I used to do

⏹️ ▶️ John I used to do WWC bingo back when I was Marilyn Mann.

Notarized apps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, tell me about notarized apps. What, I mean, the name makes sense, but I don’t know, it just seems like a very peculiar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey name to me. But I guess that there’s a different stage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of security and secureness to apps in macOS Mojave, so tell

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me about this, John.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you’ve got, what is it, Gatekeeper?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John been in the OS for a while.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And developer ID.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, Gatekeeper is the feature, and you have three modes. One mode is

⏹️ ▶️ John anything goes whoopee, old Mac OS style. That is not the default. The next mode

⏹️ ▶️ John is, I gotta open up this preference so I don’t blow this, security and privacy.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s called developer ID. All right, so the next mode is Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Store and Identified Developers. So Mac App Store is like, you all run applications for the Mac App Store, we know

⏹️ ▶️ John what those are. And then the and Identified Developers, is what Marco’s talking about, which is developer

⏹️ ▶️ John ID. Which is you register with Apple and you get an identity and you sign your application, but your application

⏹️ ▶️ John is not in the Mac App Store. And the final setting is Mac App Store only. It’s the only things that this Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John will run are things from the Mac App Store. The default setting is the middle one and there’s always a bypass where you can right click

⏹️ ▶️ John and do open and click through a dialog and get it to open up. So people have been scared about this for years because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re worried that some, you know, Apple would make a Mac that can only run software that Apple approves. I mean, nobody wants that

⏹️ ▶️ John because we all wanna be able to run whatever the heck software we want on our Macs, but we also appreciate the additional

⏹️ ▶️ John safety of these settings, right? In particular, I never change it

⏹️ ▶️ John to the old style anything goes thing because it’s so easy to bypass on a case by case basis

⏹️ ▶️ John if you leave it in the middle setting. The middle setting gives you advantages, which is that if there is a malicious developer

⏹️ ▶️ John out there, Apple can revoke that developer’s identity and your Mac will refuse to launch their

⏹️ ▶️ John application. So if there’s some malware that goes out there and Apple detects it, they can revoke this

⏹️ ▶️ John developer’s identity and then everyone else who has that software is protected after that. All right, so notarized

⏹️ ▶️ John applications is not really a change to this model, it’s just an enhancement. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the enhancement is to allow Apple to revoke the ability to launch a

⏹️ ▶️ John specific app. If they revoke the developer’s ID, every application that belongs to that developer is nuked. So say like

⏹️ ▶️ John some hacker got into a third-party developer’s thing and poisoned one of their applications, but all the other

⏹️ ▶️ John applications were fine. With developer ID, or they would have to

⏹️ ▶️ John kill all that developer’s applications. But with notarized apps, they can kill the one specific application

⏹️ ▶️ John that has the malware inserted into it. And the way it does this is by

⏹️ ▶️ John communicating with Apple’s notary service on launch and saying, Hey, I’m application XYZ, am

⏹️ ▶️ John I allowed to launch? Rather than saying, Hey, I’m an application signed by developer XYZ is developer

⏹️ ▶️ John XYZ in good standing and I’m allowed to launch their applications. So this seemed

⏹️ ▶️ John like a good change, a good enhancement. I can imagine eventually, notarized

⏹️ ▶️ John applications replacing developer ID applications. Like it’s basically just an enhancement of developer IDs.

⏹️ ▶️ John And in both situations, you need to register with Apple. And in both situations, Apple servers

⏹️ ▶️ John are involved in it somehow, if only sending definitions to your computer about what it isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John allowed to run. Notarized, I think, checks on demand every single time with the service.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, there’s a pretty major difference in how the app gets signed, though.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, are you saying like you have to contact Apple service to do the signing to like is there the notary on it? Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John developer ID, you can just sign it locally without a network connection. Is that a difference?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, but it’s a little bit more complex than that. So if I’m understanding this correctly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so developer ID, it happens entirely locally. Once you get your certificate from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you register with the entire signing process from your version of Xcode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to your customers Macs happen can happen on your computer. You can generate the final build

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and put it on your server or send it to people and it works and it’s verified as you because it’s just a signature

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when any certificate. The Apple the new one the notarized thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco requires the app binaries to be uploaded to Apple servers and requires them to go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through something that sounds a lot like the processing step with iTunes Connect Connect now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple could or App Store Connect and and you know as I was developers know that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not just a simple reading of the file it’s also not very fast so there’s there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a couple of problems with this number one is that processing step on on the iOS iTunes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Connect infrastructure at least can take half hour maybe on a good day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes longer sometimes a little bit shorter but minimum usually 20 minutes and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know you seem it seems to be like that you’re stuck behind a big queue. So that just slows down development and complicates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things. It becomes an asynchronous thing that you have to submit to Apple and then wait

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then download the file from them. You can’t just have a script that signs a build, publishes it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you’re done. It adds complexity because you have to wait until this processing step is done. That happens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometime and occasionally gets stuck. It’s just for release builds, though, right? Yes, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is for release builds, but still that’s still an extra step and it makes something less less automatable,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it makes it more complicated, and it increases the chances that your release that you want to do might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to be delayed by a couple hours if it gets stuck and you have to, you know, make a support ticket, which is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually does happen with the iTunes Connect stuff. And so that’s one problem. The other problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is Apple hasn’t, I don’t think, been incredibly clear on what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of verification they’re going to do. So for instance, on the iOS one, they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like during that processing step, they’re doing all sorts of automated checks on that app. binary. Now we know the whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco purpose of this is to scan for malware. That makes sense. Sure, I’m sure they’re going to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But like one thing the iOS one does is also scans for things like private API usage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and will automatically with no human decision involved will automatically every time reject an app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that uses any private API symbols. Are they going to do that in the Mac too? For this for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this non-app store distribution method that will soon probably be the only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco distribution method that works without changing massive defaults. Will they at some point in the future

⏹️ ▶️ Marco require all apps to do this unless you do something crazy like disable sip?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know there’s if you look at like how this is today right now today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as we know it which you know I don’t think the system is actually running yet but as you know it today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we know the iOS version just adds delays and makes things asynchronous and makes things occasionally just stop for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours at a time for no reason. But in the future this could be used badly. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could be used to actually prevent Mac apps that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exist today from being able to use the system at all, which could in the future prevent them from being run

⏹️ ▶️ Marco either easily or at all. So for instance, if your app uses a private

⏹️ ▶️ Marco API, is this system going to automatically reject it and therefore in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a future version of Gatekeeper your app will just be unsignable. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of crappy and that’s not good for the platform I would argue. So there there are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some red flags here for that that I hope they don’t do it badly like that but this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of system now gives them the ability to and not only as like some kind of crazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco theoretical thing but just if the if it works the way the iOS processing step always has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then it will do this and And that’s I don’t love that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I mean, that’s the that’s a slippery slope argument that everyone was worried about when gatekeeper came out. It could just be

⏹️ ▶️ John that the slope is slippery, but everything about Mac OS development is slow and it’s taking a long time to slip

⏹️ ▶️ John down the slope. So this is like a decade long locking down of the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John But thus far, they haven’t made any moves in that direction. And I think the one that people are really wary of

⏹️ ▶️ John is not so much about how annoying it is to have a signed application, but the ability to run on

⏹️ ▶️ John sign once period by making that either extremely difficult or impossible for regular

⏹️ ▶️ John people, that would really change the character of the Mac. Things like sip for third party applications

⏹️ ▶️ John make me think that they don’t have a change in philosophy. Well, first of all, they took great pains to say

⏹️ ▶️ John there are no new guidelines for app review, which is kind of an unsecretive because we’re not talking about app review talking to

⏹️ ▶️ John a developer ID like the Mac App Store. The rules for the Mac App Store do not change, but this is kind of outside of that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And second, SIP for third-party applications is the reverse. It lets third-party applications

⏹️ ▶️ John use the tools of the OS to lock themselves down in a way that was previously only open to the OS.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s third-party applications keeping users out of their business, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And I know it’s mostly an unrelated feature to this, but it makes me think that they realize that

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Mac, you know, like, that it would be a bad idea to reject Mac applications that

⏹️ ▶️ John use private APIs. like that it’s been part of the culture forever, unlike on iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that the whole point of this is to be not. They already have something that rejects you for using private API. It’s called the Mac App

⏹️ ▶️ John Store. Right. This is this is the this is not that right. I can imagine them changing the

⏹️ ▶️ John default to Mac App Store only if and when they’re able to make the Mac App Store, you know, get up to snuff

⏹️ ▶️ John again and getting like Office and Adobe in there as a step in that direction. So maybe their goal could be, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John in three years, let’s change the default. But I really hope they never do

⏹️ ▶️ John get rid of the ability to run apps from anywhere. And I really hope they don’t take any of the Mac App

⏹️ ▶️ John Store guidelines and port them down to notarize because then what’s the point? Then instead of having three options, you really just have to

⏹️ ▶️ John write. And the only difference is in one case, Apple takes 30% of your money and host your file for you. I want to

⏹️ ▶️ John clarify before we leave this topic. Apple did actually say explicitly a future version of

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS will require developer ID apps to be notarized. Notarized apps

⏹️ ▶️ John will replace down by D in the future, which future OS next year’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the year after who knows they didn’t say, but we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, it’s next year for sure. Like it’s let’s be realistic here. We’re as lucky they didn’t do it this year.

Safari’s tracking prevention

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, Safari got some cool stuff. It got tracking prevention.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so tell me about this Facebook example dialogue.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just thought it was funny, like when they’re talking about Safari, all these sorts of security features to show how they prevent

⏹️ ▶️ John websites from tracking you. They used Facebook as the example of, you know, the thing they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John stopping from tracking you, which is a little on the nose, but it’s good that they’re not pulling punches, especially considering

⏹️ ▶️ John how Apple used to in the past, I think it’s all gone now, have direct integration

⏹️ ▶️ John with Facebook for things like contacts, um, and have like, I think they still, they still let you

⏹️ ▶️ John have a Facebook account and you’re like accounts thing. No, they pulled that all out last year. Yeah. So anyway, Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has, uh, spent a few years with sort of, uh, most

⏹️ ▶️ John favored nation status given to like Facebook and Twitter and a bunch of services that we’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John familiar with because they exist in China and they seem to be moving away from that and saying, you know what, get out

⏹️ ▶️ John of our messages service, Yahoo, AIM, IZQ, get out of our system

⏹️ ▶️ John dialog box Facebook. You’re not allowed to use our contact data. Just

⏹️ ▶️ John going back on all that stuff, and now really taking a very aggressive stance with Safari

⏹️ ▶️ John at doing whatever they possibly can to thwart

⏹️ ▶️ John websites tracking you. One avenue of doing this, they already

⏹️ ▶️ John did this in what, High Sierra’s version of Safari, where

⏹️ ▶️ John they try to detect when a cookie is being used to track you across websites

⏹️ ▶️ John and periodically delete it to try to prevent you from being tracked across websites. Like they basically make their

⏹️ ▶️ John web browser broken. It’s supposed to say, hey, store this cookie in on my expiration time. And Safari tries to say,

⏹️ ▶️ John that cookie doesn’t look legit. Like it’s not a cookie. The domain for that

⏹️ ▶️ John cookie seems too broad. Or I see it being read by multiple websites,

⏹️ ▶️ John or it’s being read by a little bug on a page, and I don’t like that. So I let you have the

⏹️ ▶️ John cookie, and I let you set it, but every once in a while I’m going to delete it, just to fuzz things up to make it harder to track these

⏹️ ▶️ John people. Now to take it even farther, and looking at all the things that the websites do

⏹️ ▶️ John that don’t use the most obvious thing, which is just cookies or other local storage to track you, and lots

⏹️ ▶️ John of websites do stuff where even if you run kind of in an incognito mode or constantly clear cookies or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John they use JavaScript to access attributes of you of your

⏹️ ▶️ John web browser things like what fonts do you have installed what configuration you have installed

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s the resolution of your screen you know all sorts of stuff that you wouldn’t think has anything

⏹️ ▶️ John to do with you but just like but if they combine seven or eight of those things they can come up with they call fingerprinting

⏹️ ▶️ John like a fingerprint of you you know how many people have this exact combination of attributes

⏹️ ▶️ John at this time with this user agent on this device with this thing and they can use that fingerprint

⏹️ ▶️ John to track you across websites and so now Safari is gonna lie to websites about

⏹️ ▶️ John exactly all that stuff it’s gonna lie about what fonts you have installed it’s gonna lie about what plugins you have installed it’s gonna lie about

⏹️ ▶️ John your configuration it’s gonna make you seem generic and make all Safari’s look

⏹️ ▶️ John users look like they have the same fonts installed the same plugins the same configuration the the same screen size, stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John like that. Which is, you know, if you got back in time 20

⏹️ ▶️ John years and said, you know, soon web browsers will have the ability to tell what, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John all these attributes of your system. Like, wow, I could do such interesting things with that. And say, yeah, but browsers are gonna lie

⏹️ ▶️ John and tell you fake information, because if they don’t, people will track you and show you the same ad across a million different websites.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re also getting rid of all the legacy plugins that could do all sorts of nasty things to your browser.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ve been deprecating those for years, and now finally they’re gonna go away. Unfortunately, they also got rid of their

⏹️ ▶️ John own legacy plugins, Safari extensions, they introduced many years ago. They’re not going away

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely, but the only ones you’re allowed to be used are the ones from Apple’s App Store, which

⏹️ ▶️ John means that my beloved reload button, the most sophisticated Safari extension ever created,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco which reloads

⏹️ ▶️ John your webpage, is breaking in Mojave,

⏹️ ▶️ John because I can’t put it on Apple’s App Store extensions. I used to be

⏹️ ▶️ John on their little app store for extensions like when the extensions first came out and then later they changed it around

⏹️ ▶️ John and you had to sign it with a certificate which I did and then later they had like a separate store for it and they said if you want your

⏹️ ▶️ John extension to keep showing up submit it and I submitted it to them and they said this extension has insufficient

⏹️ ▶️ John functionality which I can’t really blame them because it’s kind of true. So my reload button is dead which is sad

⏹️ ▶️ John but more importantly a bunch of other extensions that I used to use are also dead and I’m kind of annoyed by that so I’m trying to encourage those

⏹️ ▶️ John developers to get into the Safari extension app store thingy so I can continue to use their extensions.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you want to work around this, by the way, I discovered this on Twitter today, you can use Safari extension builder

⏹️ ▶️ John to load the extensions and run them. And you just have to type in your admin password, which is kind of scary,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you have to type in your admin password and that and that will get them to run. The problem is every time you quit

⏹️ ▶️ John Safari and relaunch it, all your extensions are gone again. So not great,

⏹️ ▶️ John but there’s a workaround. And my final point on this topic is Apple went through all this stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s crowd-pleasing people like I don’t want to be tracked by Facebook I I love how you’re doing these clever things to thwart

⏹️ ▶️ John people trying to fingerprint me and I don’t like flash I guess so yay legacy plugins

⏹️ ▶️ John going away but in the end as people are plotting I was thinking

⏹️ ▶️ John as a you know longtime web developer Apple somehow got an entire audience full of technical

⏹️ ▶️ John people to applaud for potentially breaking websites and not that I’m saying Apple shouldn’t do this stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John But every time Apple does stuff like this, some website somewhere that you’re going to use is going to break in some

⏹️ ▶️ John weird way and you’re not going to understand. And it’s going to be because either safaris, quote unquote, intelligent

⏹️ ▶️ John tracking, prevention and fingerprinting are going awry or because they’re working exactly the way they’re supposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to. And this website literally stops functioning when they can’t track you. Both of those things

⏹️ ▶️ John are prone to happen. It’s one of the you know, one of the downsides of running a content blocker or an ad

⏹️ ▶️ John blocker or any of those things that I think we all run in some form or another is that you have to be careful because

⏹️ ▶️ John we all don’t want to be tracked. But we’re also super annoyed if some website we’re using doesn’t work, especially if it doesn’t work in

⏹️ ▶️ John subtle ways that you think might just be a bug with the website. And it takes you like 20 minutes to an hour to realize,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, it’s my content blockers. And if I reload this page without content bloggers, suddenly it works, which by the way, you can do on iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John by holding the reload button down. I think you can do a Mac OS with a similar thing. So it’s not that hard to do. But it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John for me, at least it’s hard to remember that be it and that may be what’s going wrong here and it might not just be that like my

⏹️ ▶️ John my cell connection is bad and that’s why I’m tapping this button nothing’s happening it might not be happening because

⏹️ ▶️ John this website is being broken by some security thing so anyway good moves by Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John but I’ll miss my reload button and I’m a little bit wary about websites breaking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly like I I’m not that concerned about that with the intelligent tracking prevention that they did last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year with the first version of the system as you described as far as I I could tell nothing seemed to break

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from that like nothing I there was never a time in this whole year so far where I’ve thought well better disable that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or better switch to chrome because that must be breaking what I’m doing right now. So it that was a pretty conservative approach

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think obviously this this year like what they’re doing with this is a little more aggressive and and honestly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s great that’s a good thing ultimately if you look at the browser landscape

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google the advertising company that does a lot of this tracking stuff themselves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and has zero respect for people’s desires not to be tracked, they’re not going to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crap for Chrome. Chrome is not going to lead the way on this. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only two browsers that have enough market share to do things like this without having a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people just get mad and switch away are probably Safari and Chrome.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think is the only major browser vendor that both has the market

⏹️ ▶️ Marco position to do things like this without the whole web just saying, well, F off.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fine, our site will break in your browser and it’ll work in everyone else’s. Apple has the clout to try this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they actually have the motivation to do things like this. Whereas like… Google has

⏹️ ▶️ John motivation to do this as

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco well. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John no way. Yeah, yeah. Now listen. So,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and I think

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ve probably already done stuff like this. I just I’m keeping up with it. Google’s

⏹️ ▶️ John motivation is to kill everybody’s tracking except their own. So if they because they

⏹️ ▶️ John build a web browser, they can build they can literally build in any Google specific

⏹️ ▶️ John tracking they want like into the web browser. That’s true. Block everything from everybody else. Now they’re not going to

⏹️ ▶️ John do that. But by owning the web browser, and because they are an advertising company, they can do

⏹️ ▶️ John exactly what’s Apple’s doing and become super aggressive about blocking stuff, but instead switch all of Google’s

⏹️ ▶️ John tracking entirely like literally within the browser’s code itself. Like you just have like

⏹️ ▶️ John some tag on the page that says Google Chrome, do your thing. And Google Chrome totally internally,

⏹️ ▶️ John based on the do your things tag, will have its own internal tracking that they can update with their auto update mechanism or whatever. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I kind of think Google is motivated to block every other tracking system except for

⏹️ ▶️ John theirs because they make money in advertising and the degree to which other people’s advertising systems are crappier than

⏹️ ▶️ John theirs is good for them. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco true, yeah. And honestly, you say they wouldn’t do that. I think they totally would do that. The only reason they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably haven’t done that yet is maybe antitrust concerns, although honestly in this day and age,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no one’s enforcing that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it would break the web. If they were super aggressive and it totally broke everybody else’s stuff, it would break more than

⏹️ ▶️ John just, because they’re all using the same tools to do it. They’re using cookies, so you can’t totally break cookies. They’re using

⏹️ ▶️ John JavaScript, you can’t turn off JavaScript. So it’s actually very tricky to do, which is why, it’s hard work, that’s why Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, they did the cautious thing with the tracking prevention. ramping it up. It’s very easy to accidentally break the web

⏹️ ▶️ John by doing this stuff. So you actually have to when they say intelligent tracking prevention, remember, there actually is a and

⏹️ ▶️ John not a machine learning, but an intelligence aspect to this, where you have to do it very carefully and test a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you can’t just blanket block anything because you will break the web.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ultimately, though, I wonder, like, is quote, breaking the web, that bad of a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing these days, you know, we’ve we’ve had a lot we’ve had years and years and years, over a decade

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of browser extensions being commonplace that can do things like block JavaScript on certain pages or block

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all JavaScript or things like that. We’ve had people routinely quote breaking the web

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for themselves voluntarily for a long time now. I would also argue that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today there’s more reason than ever to break your web.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The web web tracking and web ads are so abusive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so just immoral and creepy and sleazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just bargain basement garbage, shameless, like they’re so bad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that as time goes on, I feel like the reason to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco break your web voluntarily for yourself with things like this, not only does the reason go up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but also I think the downside gets reduced because over time the web

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has less usage and more alternatives you know what happens like so you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I run I run a content blocker in Safari you know what happens if I go to a site that breaks it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I close the tab and I go do something else I go read someone else’s site that it doesn’t break in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or I go do something else that isn’t browsing the web like we have so many options and things to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is you know, this is why the web is struggling in a lot of ways. But like there’s so much competition for everything on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco web these days that if the way I like to run things for my own safety, security

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and speed breaks your site, my reaction isn’t I’m going to disable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my my blocker. My reaction is screw your site. I’ll go somewhere

⏹️ ▶️ John else. I think that’s the reaction of us on this program and most people listening to it. But people

⏹️ ▶️ John who are not into technology just want their websites to work. And if you if you try to like

⏹️ ▶️ John if you install a blocker on their thing and it breaks Facebook and even the most minor way they will immediately

⏹️ ▶️ John install uninstall the blocker they won’t even oh you white list Facebook nope nope just uninstall you broke the web

⏹️ ▶️ John for me like people just want they just want their stories they just want the the two websites they ever go to

⏹️ ▶️ John Facebook and probably something else to work all the time 100 of the time and if this thing causes

⏹️ ▶️ John any sort of problem they will immediately delete it so I think it’s important for us tech nerds to be on the forefront of this because

⏹️ ▶️ John we are the ones who you know are trying to push this forward. We’re the ones who are willing to not go to a website

⏹️ ▶️ John to break stuff to deal with the brokenness. And that I think is pushing the web and pushing, you know, Apple. Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John part of that, pushing everything in the right direction. Most normal people, they are not an agent of change. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John merely victims of these things. So building it into safari I think is a big step because it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing that people can turn off as far as I know. So Apple has to be really careful with it. But it does. It

⏹️ ▶️ John like raises the bar for everybody. And to your ears, a cat and mouse game. Apple does this. The advertisers

⏹️ ▶️ John do that, so on and so forth. Same thing with Google. Someone said in the chat that Google, Chrome actually does have

⏹️ ▶️ John some blocking already built in for the most annoying kinds of ads. And for years, they’ve all had pop-up blocking.

⏹️ ▶️ John You guys remember the web when pop-ups were not blocked by web browsers,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and you had

⏹️ ▶️ John pop-up vendors and all that other stuff, right? So every time browser vendors have taken that next step,

⏹️ ▶️ John that has really pushed the web forward. And we have influenced by recommending

⏹️ ▶️ John to everybody to know that you shouldn’t use IE6, you should use Chrome. what made chrome become as

⏹️ ▶️ John popular as it is on windows. Part of it is tech nerds who had heard of

⏹️ ▶️ John chrome and no one else had forcibly installing it on all their friends computers and saying use this, don’t use I. E.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s better, right? Uh, and I think, you know, we can’t forcibly install safari people’s windows machines

⏹️ ▶️ John anymore. Uh, but I think being enthusiastic about browsers

⏹️ ▶️ John and blockers and stuff like that and evangelizing them to regular people who

⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise wouldn’t look at them is help moving this forward as well. Not sure

⏹️ ▶️ John if we’re winning this war but I’m glad that there are at least combatants on both sides instead of like so many

⏹️ ▶️ John other situations in the tech and especially government worlds having combatants only on one side and just

⏹️ ▶️ John victims on the other.

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#askatp: Mac apps for novices

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s do some Ask ATP. It starts with Rodrigo Palau who writes, I love hearing you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talk about the cutting edge stuff, but what do you think are the essential Mac apps for the super novice user?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not sure how to answer this. Like I have a lot of things that I consider

⏹️ ▶️ Casey important for me, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that any of them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is important for your novice user. Like the, the only thing that can come to mind is Alfred, which is my particular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey launcher of choice. I think one or both of you guys use Quicksilver, LaunchBar is another

⏹️ ▶️ Casey popular one. Or is that’s on the Mac, right? Or am

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I making

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that up? LaunchBar. That’s the one I use. Other than a launcher, like Alfred just does the same stuff that Spotlight does,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but in a way that agrees with my head a little better. Other than that, I can’t really think of anything. Do you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys, let’s start with Marco, do you have any apps that you would recommend?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Petri – I would honestly say that I don’t think a launcher is necessary for most people. I would just use Spotlight because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by default, I think it even has the command space key that kind of is like the standard launcher key. For me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the best thing for most novices to do on a Mac is to use as many of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco built-in apps as possible because Apple’s pretty good at making novice apps for common

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tasks. You know like the built-in calendar is fine. It’s not great, but it’s fine. Built-in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Notes is really good actually. You know there’s a couple rough edges here and there, but for the most part it’s really good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The you know built-in reminders is okay. I would say Things is significantly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better to be your to-do app if you want a to-do app, but reminders is okay in the meantime.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean just you know like all the built-ins, mail is good, safari is good as we were just saying. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just use a bunch of the built-in stuff I would say. Maybe add things to it. Although I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably a little bit expensive for most novices if I had to guess. But otherwise yeah just use Apple stuff, use photos,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use notes. It’s all really good. Use iCloud to sync and back up your contacts and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. Like I use most of the stuff myself, it’s great. There’s a good suggestion from Espressoly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the chat to use 1Password. I really like 1Password a lot and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was kind of late to that game, but I’m very glad I joined that game. But that being said, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s still a little clunky and complicated for novices. I don’t know that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would recommend it for novices.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I would agree with everything you just said about 1Password. I’ll also put in the show notes, I have a link to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an article I wrote probably two or three years ago now, 2016, there you go, where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I put in basically, it was for myself more than anyone else, but I put in a checklist of all the things that I tend to install.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey To be clear, most of this is super nerdy, super duper nerdy, but there may be something on here that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might think is useful. So as a silly example, like trip mode, which I’d learned about from Jason Snell,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’re on a laptop where you can restrict what has access to the internet connection, say if you’re tethering or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something like that. Also fiddly, but also something that may have appeal beyond just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the super nerds. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, you can take a look through that. I gotta say though, trip mode, that, like a lot of weird stuff breaks with trip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mode in non-obvious ways because like if an app uses like some kind of like command line thing behind the scenes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that thing isn’t white listed, then it’ll get blocked and random things just won’t work. It’s it’s kind of weird

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a novice. I’m not sure I would recommend that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s just something to look at if nothing else. And you can see a lot of these on this on this post. John, what do you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think?

⏹️ ▶️ John So this is asking for not just novice users, but super novice users. And I think my advice to

⏹️ ▶️ John them would be like, there’s probably one

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of main thing you’re doing with your Mac, especially if it’s a work related thing. As far as

⏹️ ▶️ John my work is mostly writing, but it’s writing or drawing or like what you know, what are you doing in Mac spreadsheets, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say that if you are a super novice user, like like Margo said, just just stick with the stuff that’s built in there’s a lot of stuff built

⏹️ ▶️ John into covers most of the bases, but whatever it is that you’re doing, there is probably one or

⏹️ ▶️ John two or three popular powerful Mac applications for doing whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John it is you’re doing better than whatever’s built in. you could probably use text edit and get by with

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. But depending on the kind of writer you are, if you’re like a fiction writer, maybe look at Scrivener or Ulysses,

⏹️ ▶️ John or if you’re a coder, look at BBEd or some other kind of it, right? There’s some application,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re an artist, there’s some built-in applications for doing

⏹️ ▶️ John some kinds of art, but obviously you’d look at Photoshop or Acorn or whatever. In every one of

⏹️ ▶️ John those realms, especially the realms that the Macs are popular in,

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to do a little bit of research. of your super novice user, maybe you’ve never even heard of Acorn, you know, or maybe you’ve never heard of

⏹️ ▶️ John Scrivener, right? You know, like you’ve heard of Microsoft Word, it’s like, is that what I can get? Oh, well, Word, Word is for the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac, how’d you just get that? Word may not be the best application for you. The Mac, what makes the Mac great is there are applications

⏹️ ▶️ John like Ulysses and Scrivener that are not Microsoft Word and are,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I would say, simpler and more elegant and dedicated to specific use cases.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should find those applications for the one important thing you’re doing with your Mac and everything else

⏹️ ▶️ John use the standard tools. And then I would say I was gonna offer a launcher as like, and finally, if you ever graduated

⏹️ ▶️ John out of super novice user, maybe the first sort of quote unquote power user thing you might wanna look into

⏹️ ▶️ John is find a launcher. And there’s lots of cool ones to choose from. And there are very simple application that does

⏹️ ▶️ John a few simple things a little bit better than Spotlight. And it’s a good sort of entree into the world

⏹️ ▶️ John of Mac customization and more sophisticated use.

#askatp: Android iMessage?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on, Jack Johnson writes, do you think Apple could make an Android version of iMessage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for cross-platform compatibility? Set aside the question of whether or not they would make it, even if they could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for reasons like platform tie-in and et cetera. There were rumors a while back that this was already in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey progress, and I would be surprised if they hadn’t at least, you know, kick the can on this one or kick the tires,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess I should say, on this one. I don’t think they’re interested in it because I do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think there is tremendous lock-in, but I don’t personally see any reason why they wouldn’t be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean you could look at the way they treat iMessage on the Mac and you can kind of like well if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they can even maintain this on like two OS’s, let alone adding another

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one. I mean that being said like you know obviously Android I think would have probably more of an upside for them if they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanted the most people possible using iMessage. But you know I think the lock-in thing is is really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the key here. iMessage is a great lock-in for iPhones. This has been like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think like surveys and business research and things have actually shown this to be the case. Like one of the major

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasons people stick with iPhones who might otherwise be a little curious to try Android or something is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they know they become a green bubble friend and they don’t want to be a green bubble friend. That’s a real thing. That’s a real

⏹️ ▶️ Marco major effect. So I can’t see Apple being willing to give that up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for what benefit. Like basically, I think the answer shouldn’t be like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they could do an Android version. I think the answer is what would they gain from doing an Android version?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like they’re not making money on iMessage directly. Like what would they gain from that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I just I don’t see any answer to that question that would make it worth giving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up the massive amount of lock-in that it gives them.

⏹️ ▶️ John This ties into something I mentioned earlier about messages being Apple’s most successful

⏹️ ▶️ John quote unquote social network, which is again not a high bar because they’re not particularly good at this.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, the question is, could they? Yes, absolutely they could. They’ve made Windows versions

⏹️ ▶️ John of all sorts of stuff. They have an Android version of Apple Music. In fact, when I read this question, I was like, wait, do they have

⏹️ ▶️ John an Android version of iMessage? And I realized I was thinking of Apple Music. I think, right? They

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco have Apple Music from Android. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John because there was a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Beats

⏹️ ▶️ John music like when they bought it. And unlike many other products where Apple usually cans the Windows versions, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John for that. So there is Apple Music for Android. But anyway, if there ever comes a time

⏹️ ▶️ John where it is in Apple strategic interest to have a foothold in the social networking

⏹️ ▶️ John space, like say, say Facebook is on the wane and it is slowly destroyed by our by our

⏹️ ▶️ John cumulative hatred for it, right? Our meeting on this podcast, three people were going to take down Facebook

⏹️ ▶️ John with our mind. And there’s like a power vac, there’s a power vacuum, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is like, well, you know, there’s WhatsApp and line and all those other things and Apple be like,

⏹️ ▶️ John are we, we’re a player there, right? Like maybe we’re not as big as WhatsApp or line, but why aren’t we as big?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like we’re, you know, it’s been historically, as Marco said, a, a, a lock in is such

⏹️ ▶️ John a harsh word, a differentiating factor for the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iPhone, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John a network effect kind of thing, right? the the math could switch and say

⏹️ ▶️ John actually We have a shot at the brass ring here as a gold. I don’t know if color the bring I think it’s brass

⏹️ ▶️ John we have a shot at the brass ring the space gray ring

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John if we just open this up we can take I message, you know We can triple the size of it overnight

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe because you know like carry the wave of that network effect and saying now suddenly why would

⏹️ ▶️ John Android people sign up for this? Oh because they want to be blue bubble friends to like the last gasp of that the exclusivity

⏹️ ▶️ John Even though you’ve just eliminated exclusivity, there are still the people who wish they had blue bubbles briefly and

⏹️ ▶️ John then, you know, overwhelm the competitors and become the most important text

⏹️ ▶️ John messaging subsystem. Remember, it’s not just text messaging and then, yeah, they don’t make money off of it, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple pays an app in there and Apple pay is the thing they do make money off of, presumably.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it like it is kind of an app platform. So there may come a time in the future where Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is in Apple strategic interest to try to try to like

⏹️ ▶️ John put strap rockets to their one successful social network and see if that can take them to the next level.

⏹️ ▶️ John Make them a player in a space where historically they have not been a player. But I don’t think that’s going to happen today.

#askatp: Streaming consoles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, Mustafa Hamwi writes, this one is for Syracuse. It seems

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that everyone is suddenly talking about streaming console-quality games to thin clients. Are the days of gaming consoles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey numbered? What they’re saying is, do all the graphics processing in the cloud.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you’re basically doing a glorified VNC or something like that, where it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey beaming the fully rendered display to your console or your computer or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what have you, and you’re interacting with something that is very, very stupid and not very powerful,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it has a very, very good connection to the Internet. So is that the way things are going from here?

⏹️ ▶️ John So we’ve gone from plastic discs in cardboard boxes and trucks that you drive your car

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever to the store and get and bring back home and load. And we’ve gone to, okay, we don’t need the plastic discs. We can download the

⏹️ ▶️ John bits onto your computer. Actually before that, we went to plastic discs that you buy and bring home and stick in your console

⏹️ ▶️ John and then it copies every single bit of data off of the plastic disc onto your hard drive and then it plays off the hard drive

⏹️ ▶️ John but you have to have the disk in for stupid copy protection reasons then it’s like no disk at all download directly to your computer

⏹️ ▶️ John or to your console uh and you know it’s like a one-time bit download with

⏹️ ▶️ John frequent updates and content additions uh then we had don’t download all the

⏹️ ▶️ John bits because it’s really big just download enough bits for you to start playing the game like the playstation 4 is fast start thing i

⏹️ ▶️ John think xbox has a similar thing now uh so it’s still not streaming the game it’s still running locally

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s sending you just enough bits to start the game and then it runs it locally and then in the background downloads more bits and then the

⏹️ ▶️ John final stage of that which we’ve had with on live and the various uh that company that sony bought that that emulates

⏹️ ▶️ John ps3 games and uh or runs ps3 games remotely and what is the other one uh nvidia

⏹️ ▶️ John now a whole bunch of these services that literally do not run the game locally run it run it in a data

⏹️ ▶️ John center somewhere on a much more powerful device and beam it over to you and so it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ John a trend of like we’re obviously going in that direction everything’s going to go there but Physics is a harsh

⏹️ ▶️ John mistress here. For certain categories of games, not all, but certain categories of games,

⏹️ ▶️ John the latency imposed by the physical distance and the speed of light, and in the US,

⏹️ ▶️ John the crappiness of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco our

⏹️ ▶️ John internet connections, means that certain genres of games are

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to become streaming anytime soon.

⏹️ ▶️ John You would need direct fiber optic connections to a fairly close data center for

⏹️ ▶️ John it to make sense for those genres. But for every other genre of game, and there are many of them that don’t require

⏹️ ▶️ John those kind of reflexes, it’s just an economic question.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s great to be able to sell someone a cheap box that doesn’t have a lot of electronics in it, but you still

⏹️ ▶️ John need to pay for the electronics that are not in that box. You need to pay for the ones in the data center, and you’re hoping to get sharing out of it. Like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John people aren’t all playing games at the same time, so I don’t have to buy one giant gaming PC

⏹️ ▶️ John from my data center for every customer. I have to buy 0.3 gaming PC, 0.1.

⏹️ ▶️ John And depending on how that math works out and how much data center power costs and all that other

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, it could make sense to do that. But it’s a thing that everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John is trying right now. So everyone’s seeing how that works out. Does it just make sense for old games? Does it make

⏹️ ▶️ John sense for people who can’t afford big gaming PCs and we can get them to rent games? And

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think anyone has shown that model to be particularly lucrative. So I think in the next one or two

⏹️ ▶️ John or three generations, we are still going to be downloading bits and running things locally. But

⏹️ ▶️ John five generations from now, it seems conceivable to me, especially for like TV connected pucks

⏹️ ▶️ John or TVs themselves. And they’ve done this as well. There’s like a PlayStation now. TV puck

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, and I think they built into some of the TVs for games that don’t require latency. That could be

⏹️ ▶️ John in the same way the phone games that could be, you know, a the dominant form of cheap gaming for the rest

⏹️ ▶️ John of us. But I think for the rest of all of our lives listening to this, running games on a

⏹️ ▶️ John local device will still be a thing at the high end anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our sponsors this week Aftershocks, Rover and Molecule and we’ll talk to you next time.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week.

⏹️ ▶️ John or into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse. It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to.

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, tech podcasts so long.

Neutralog(ue): Job Liss

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well what else is going on? Your job! You quit your job. You had a job and now you don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well I still do for now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Soon you won’t. But soon I won’t. So that’s the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so we couldn’t talk about it last week because it was kind of a big event but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now we can because it’s just us here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nobody cares.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but I very much care and I think our listeners do too as much as we joke

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about it. So you know you had this big long analog episode about it which was excellent so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously anybody who who really wants you know a lot more about this. You should also listen to analog, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I figure we can cover it here too. So you decided to quit your job

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after months of us badgering you about it. What what made you decide

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you know it seemed like in the early part of this year right before Michaelia

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was born, it seemed like you were kind of on the fence and then you were kind of into it during your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco leave of absence and then at the end of the leaf of absence, you seem like you decided, you know what, actually,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t want to go independent. I want to go back to work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think that’s a fair characterization.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, and so like, so obviously sometime between that, which was what, like late March or something like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Sometime between then and June, you change your mind.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What happened?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and I mean, I’m perfectly happy to give the abridged version of Analog. I think the canonical

⏹️ ▶️ Casey version of this conversation, just like you said, is on Analog episode 134, Running toward a better future.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I put a blog post up about this, which is kind of the super succinct version of it. But to answer your question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more directly, a few different things happened kind of all around the same time. You broke a shoelace,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? Broke a shoelace. That’s a deep cut. I’m proud of you, John. I broke a shoelace and that’s where it all happened.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, what actually happened was I started arguing with my insurance and that was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of sort of my broken shoelace moment because it occurred to me, well, it was two things.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I argued with my insurance and I actually looked at how much we pay for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the insurance that our employer provides. So if you’re not from the US, generally but not always,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your employer will effectively subsidize your health insurance. So they’ll pay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a large portion of the cost. And so at around the time that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I started thinking, how much am I really paying in insurance, was when we were starting to really get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the bills from Michaela’s birth. And the insurance is not very good. In fact, it’s pretty bad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’s fairly expensive. What occurred to me was I’ve got garbage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey insurance that I’m paying a not insignificant amount of money for. What am I doing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because in so many ways, the re the, the thing that I was hanging my hat on for going back to work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was I need insurance, I don’t want to pay for my own insurance, I don’t know if I can pay for my own insurance,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I need insurance, which means I need a job. Well, then when you realize that a few things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all at once, you realize a, your insurance sucks, B, it’s expensive, C,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even though I’ve been told this a thousand times, it wasn’t until, um,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I went on that trip with you, Marco in May, um, for, for my Mike’s bachelor party.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When I really got away from everything and you guys badgered me a smidge when we were out there, but it really wasn’t that much,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I was able to kind of separate myself from family, from work, from everything and just kind of think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It occurred to me like, you know that thing that Marco and Aaron and Mike and everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has been saying, you know, you could always get another job? You know what? Son of a gun, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could always get another job! Like, that’s a thing I could do! And I make fun of myself, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it really is, it took that separation for me to really evaluate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it less emotionally and more quantitatively.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And another thing that occurred to me was, you know, if I look at the money that I’m lucky enough to earn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from this podcast and my other, you know, kind of side hustles, if I look at that as just a number

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and don’t think about where that money comes from, it occurred to me, oh crap, I would have quit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my job like two years ago. But I think of the money that is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey earned from podcasting as not real, which is unfair of me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’s and it’s wrong of me, but it feels not real because it doesn’t feel like podcasting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can be a real job. And I don’t want to lose sight of the fact that I am that well, all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey three of us, but me especially, I am deeply, deeply, deeply lucky

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and unbelievably privileged to be in the position where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the three of us earn enough money from this podcast and you with our extracurriculars that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me leaving a full-time job is something that’s even possible, let alone—that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could even consider it, let alone actually do it. But it occurred to me, and I know this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a hilarious thought exercise, but this is the thought technologies I needed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If Fast Text had earned the exact dollar amount that this and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my other extracurriculars have earned over the last couple of years, I would have quit a long time ago because fast text

⏹️ ▶️ Casey again for example but fast text is a real job that’s writing code that’s producing a thing it’s tangible sort of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s real but podcasting man that doesn’t count that’s not real but when I realized okay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can always get another job my insurance today sucks this is enough money that I should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be able to survive and then I started doing like the world’s biggest number that’s not really true but figuratively speaking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the world’s biggest number spreadsheet to try to figure out okay no really you know looking at, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, the money that we’ve earned, is this, is this really something that that’s possible?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It occurred to me like, this is a thing that I should be able to do. And we might have to make some lifestyle

⏹️ ▶️ Casey changes. You know, I think I talked on analog, you know, we tend to go out to eat a lot now, not too expensive places to like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey places that most of you would be disgusted by, but there are places that we enjoy, like say Wendy’s as an example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, we might go out to Wendy’s once for lunch on the weekends and that adds up over time, man, you know, like $10, $20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey worth of food, you know, every set, not that we go to Wendy’s every Saturday, but for the sake of conversation, you know, 20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bucks for lunch every Saturday. That adds up real quick. So silly things like that. Actually,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mean Mean is mentioning Cookout in the chat. That’s only like eight bucks, but I’m with you in principle.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wait, it’s cheaper than Wendy’s? Oh, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my God. Oh, absolutely. Oh, it’s so good, too. It’s so good. I’m telling you. Is that a front for organized

⏹️ ▶️ Casey crime?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I’m getting suspicious of this Cookout

⏹️ ▶️ Casey place. It is very possibly, possible that that’s the case. But anyway, but you take my point, I hope,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that, you know, there may have to be some lifestyle changes. And I’m not talking dramatic lifestyle changes, but some lifestyle

⏹️ ▶️ Casey changes, because, you know, we’ve been lucky enough that we haven’t had to nickel and dime ourselves.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And to be fair, you know, we don’t spend money particularly often. Like, you know, we buy cars once

⏹️ ▶️ Casey every five to ten years. You know, I don’t have a home pod. I would love, I would love two home pods.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t really need it, so I don’t have one. Our TV, the biggest TV in our house is 40 inches, 1080p, and I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no desire to upgrade it. Oh, that’s not, and like, okay, infinite money, sure, I’d upgrade it, but sitting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here now, it’s fine. I’m okay with it. I’m only potentially buying a car because my car’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey frigging broke, and I’m tired of it being frigging broke. So, you know, you put all this together, and,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, we’ve been treating the extracurricular money as, you know, money that’s been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly funneled directly into savings. So we have enough in the bank that we can survive for a while if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything just disappeared tomorrow. So all of that put together says

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the numbers check out. So is this what I really want?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In talking with Aaron especially about it, it occurred to me, and again, I had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey known this, but I really needed to own it as well. And it wasn’t until I was away

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the kids in Austin for Mike’s bachelor party,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it occurred to me that, you know, Declan is three and a half and because of when his birthday is, he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably going to go to kindergarten when he’s six, not five. And that means I have two and a half years left

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of being with him all the time. And Michaela, you know, she’s only five months old at this point,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but that means I only have four and a half to five and a half years with her. In a lot of ways,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you could make a very good argument, especially John, I suspect, because, you know, you have the oldest kids

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of all of us, but You can make an argument that being there when they’re super young is not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that useful because they may not remember it well, you know, they’re barely humans for a long time,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you know.

⏹️ ▶️ John I wouldn’t make that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey argument. Okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John fair. But, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, I’m saying, you know, you could make it—one could make an argument that this is a silly time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be home. But the way I look at it is, you know, starting from five or six years old until they’re gone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re going to be in school all day. You know, it’s summer side, you know, just in general, they’ll be in school all day. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now seems to be the time. It seems to be the time financially. It seems to be the time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey familially. Why wouldn’t I try this? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more than anything else, if I don’t try this, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey never going to know. And if I never know, I will regret it. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might regret this later. Maybe. I doubt it, but maybe. But at least I’ll know that I tried. least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll know that I did the thing that I didn’t think I was capable of and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey effectively took a bag of money and lit it on fire and said, you know what, I’m good, thanks. But I did it because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wanted to be with my family. And I didn’t know that I had the gumption,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for lack of a better word, to do that. But the Monday before, I’m sorry, the Tuesday

⏹️ ▶️ Casey before WWDC, because what was the holiday that Monday? It doesn’t really matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco There was a holiday that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Monday. Yeah, thank you, Memorial Day. So I didn’t do it Monday. I it Tuesday, but I said to my boss,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey look, I want to be home with the family. I want to work on other side projects.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the first Monday in July, which is the second, is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to be my last day. So after that, I’m going to be done.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He took that as well as can reasonably be hoped, but he was not particularly overjoyed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by this, and I don’t blame him. And that’s That’s the plan. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sitting here now, it’s the 13th of June, which means in one, two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a half, just shy of three weeks, I will be an independent worker

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for hopefully as little as two and a half, three, I guess two and a half

⏹️ ▶️ Casey years until Declan’s in kindergarten. That’s like my goal. The six or so years or five and a half years or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey until Mikhail’s in kindergarten, that’s my stretch goal. And my holy cow, I’ve won the lottery goal is just I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey never have a boss again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s awesome. Even Bono has a boss, Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, I know. Everyone has a boss.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know, I know. But let me tell you about some sponsors. How many houses do you have, or how many bedrooms do you have in your house?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did Casper sponsor this episode? No, they didn’t. But if you have any extra bedrooms in your house, how many ears do you have in your family?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let me tell you about Aftershocks, because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco they all need a pair of Aftershocks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You should check them out. But no, the plan is to work about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey half-time on Casey stuff, so Casey on Cars, on this app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I’m semi-quietly trying to work on, to work on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe some stuff about RxSwift and teaching RxSwift. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if 1099 work that I find is interesting and is not 40 hours a week comes my way—1099 being independent consulting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’re not American—if 1099 work comes my way that I find interesting and does not take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up an entire week, then sweet. But Aaron and I have talked a lot about it, and the whole point of this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is to not be elsewhere, be that in my in-home office or Starbucks or something,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is to not be elsewhere for 40 hours a week. Because if I’m going to be elsewhere for 40 hours a week, I might as well just keep a regular job and get the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey free—well, not free, but you know what I mean, free healthcare. And so the idea is to be around the family

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least roughly half of the work week, and then spend the other half of the work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week trying to pull the thread on all these things that I’ve been, you know, kind of playing with, but haven’t been able to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really achieve. You know, I’ve done a couple of Casey Onkara’s videos, but I haven’t,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve been, and I’ve been very proud of them, but I haven’t been able

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to work on them as much as I want, or as quickly as I want, or with the dedication that I want, because I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a job and I have a family. And now Aaron and I, and I keep saying the word negotiated, which I think has a negative

⏹️ ▶️ Casey connotation, but we’ve negotiated that I’ll work, you know, roughly half a work week, week,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey presumably in the house, doing these things, doing Casey on Cars. There’s a few things for ATP I’d like to do, which I haven’t talked

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to you guys about, which I should have last week. Nothing bad, but you know, some helpful things for ATP I’d like to do. I can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey start to put more energy into these things that I haven’t put as much energy as I’ve wanted to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Well, and so one thing I want to place in your head, because occasionally that works,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is I don’t mean that to be insulting. I like I’m not saying you’re dumb saying like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John this This is an idea that most people don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John yet. He’s incepting you, is what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying. Exactly right. That’s the first

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco thing I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought. But I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco movie, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t say that. Oh, it’s so good. Well, the problem with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Inception is the sidebar.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John The problem with Inception is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone tells you it’s amazing. And I didn’t watch Inception until like a year or two after it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey came out, and I was like, oh, God, this is going to be such a chore, because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it’s like an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey avatar. Everyone said Avatar was amazing. It was garbage.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Don’t have it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Who

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey said

⏹️ ▶️ John Avatar was amazing? I agree with you about people overhyping Inception. I don’t think Avatar was overhyped. I think everyone kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of sneered at Avatar because it was Dancing with Wolves with blue

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m glad I saw neither of them. I heard non-stop that Avatar was amazing. I did not think it was that great. Inception however, and this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is where John’s going to disagree with me, Inception was worth all the damn hype. I loved that movie.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I freaking loved that movie. You’re right, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do disagree with you. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you’re trying to incept me. So what I’m going to incept you with, I think, if I understand the reference correctly, which I don’t, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one thing that is hard to fight against in American culture

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially, and And I can’t speak for the country, but in American culture, especially, we have a few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cultural things that make it hard to do what you’ve done to make it that are probably going to be weighing on your mind.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you mentioned a few minutes ago that leaving your job unnecessarily

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feels like setting a bag of future money on fire, like I’m just going to give him this money and I had the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thought like you know when I was thinking about leaving Tumblr, even though like my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco side hustle was doing well enough that I could leave, I thought, why would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I give up a job? Like that’s just giving up money. And part of that is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many of us, myself included, come from modest backgrounds where why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the heck would you give up money? We didn’t come from a place that was privileged enough that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco giving up money would be like something that normal thinking person would do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so there’s and that’s that’s a pretty prevalent part of American culture too of like why would you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco turn down money? Another big part of it is this kind of guilt

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like you have to have a job, you have to be working as hard as you can.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why would you ever not work a full workweek? That is slacking off or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or makes you less of a person. And instead of thinking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those in those like American culture ways, I think it’s valuable to look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at a different concept or a different mindset on this which is do you have enough

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Americans are not good at thinking about this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh no we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are not you know this is this is real hard for us a lot of other cultures have a much more healthy relationship

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the idea of having enough we are all in an amazing position

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that this show makes enough money that it provides all of us us with enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We could just do this show. We could work like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco three hours a week and or well you know maybe a little more than that with the overhead of other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff, but like you know this show takes up at most including the recording time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and probably between the three of us an average of about five hours a week. This could be all you do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This could be enough. You are feeling a lot of pressure right now to try to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fill your time with more stuff, but like for I honestly don’t think you would really enjoy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco consulting work very much. I don’t think you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey would enjoy hourly, you know, 10 to 9

⏹️ ▶️ Marco days. And the way you’re talking about it, it sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you want to jump into that because you think you should, not because you actually want to,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you totally don’t need to. And I would actually say, honestly, if you don’t need to,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I know you don’t, don’t. Why would you do it if you didn’t need to?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The only reason to do that I think would be if you, as a programmer, had the itch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to program a lot and didn’t have your own projects to invest that itch into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to satisfy that itch with. But you do. You do have your own projects that you want to do, that you are doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I don’t think you need to do that. We are in incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fortunate positions here by having this income from this show with relatively low

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hourly weekly loads, you know, workloads for it, that you should just like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoy this because like you don’t need to do anything else. You don’t need to fill your week with 20

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours of consulting work just because you feel obligated to fill that time. Like, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have enough with this right here. Literally everything else you do could just be a fun hobby

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or like a future, like kind of betting on a possible future, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has no direct income right now, everything else you do could be that kind of thing. It could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be like, let me place a bunch of bets and see what pays off down the road, but it’s all bets that I like.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s all like fun projects like Casey on Cars that like in the future this might become a thing that makes money, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t now, you know, and that’s fine. Literally everything else you do could be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that and you’d still be fine because you’d have enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven Puckett Yeah, we’re actually saying the same thing. I brought up the consulting earlier to not be I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re mostly right Like I don’t think that I would take consulting work if it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey offered unless it was something that I genuinely thought was like interesting And novel and even if I took it It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would only be for like a day or two a week because you know, if you think about it I want to spend about 20 hours You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know working on things for me and one day is eight hours two days of 16

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hours Suddenly I have four hours and we mean not to say this is not fungible But you know what I mean? Like, if I stick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with my quote unquote budget, if I do two days of consulting a week, I’ve already blown through my budget

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of hours that Aaron and I have agreed upon. And so what you said is exactly right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, everything you said is exactly right with regards to like, what am I going to do? A, I could just do ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and nothing else. B, I don’t think I have the disposition to do it, though. And C,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really, even though sitting here today, knock on my glass desk, because I have no wood nearby.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see no particular end point for the three of us and for this show, but you never know what will happen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and everything does have to end eventually, just like you said. So what I’m what this this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out these hours that I want to spend doing other things. It’s I want to start throwing some crap

⏹️ ▶️ Casey against the wall and see if any of it sticks so that if if one of us decides tomorrow,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know what I’m done, then I have something else to keep me going so I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to go crawling back to a regular jobby job. And I don’t know if any of these things will stick.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like, you look at YouTube today and to make money on YouTube is damn near impossible. So is Casey on Cars gonna stick? Eh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably not. But does it make me happy and do I find it fun? Abso-frickin-lutely. So I’m gonna work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it. Steven Pauls Well, and also, like, even if a particular project doesn’t end up making money long term

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or you don’t want to stick with it long term, it also leads to other—like, everything you do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco leads to more things that you do. So, like, even if Casey on Cars doesn’t stick,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it might lead you into something that does. So, it’s still worth placing these bets all over the place and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seeing where you end up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven Connelly Yeah, exactly right. And we’re saying the same thing. And so, the idea is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to enjoy the time that I and the three of us and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mike and the other extracurriculars I have, enjoy the time that all of us as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey groups, as a couple of groups of people have afforded me, but also not be complacent and try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get myself positioned such that I can continue

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on even if this went away or analog went away. Or, you know, what if advertising just dries up in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey podcast world tomorrow? Is that likely? Of course not. But what if? Then I’m screwed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like, I need to have some other plan.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The other plan would be we would ask everybody to give us like ten bucks a month or five

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey bucks a month. Oh, sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you know what I’m driving at, right? I want to be able to I want to diversify basically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco and I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to have all my chips in this basket and so that’s the plan and and Candidly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the the ideas I have the the case young cars is almost assuredly not going to work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This app I’m writing is probably not monetizable and if I do it’ll be like a tip jar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something and the only thing that might have legs is doing something with regard to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rxswift and that’s a a stretch. Like it’s possible. I think I can see a future in which that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey makes money, but it’s a stretch. And so I figure I’ll try all three of these and if I come up with a different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey idea, I’ll try that idea and we’ll just see where it goes. But I don’t want to,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as much as I can just sit here and be retired basically,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t want to do that because I’d like, my win the lottery goal is I never have a boss

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the sense that I mean, I don’t ever want to have a boss again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if I can make that happen by using this time wisely, then that’s what I want to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, John, you’ve been quiet. Tell me now that it’s over. Well, now that I’ve come to the end

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John of the

⏹️ ▶️ John committee. This is the short version of the analog.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was like an hour, hour and a half. So we’re less than that so far.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I’m all on the same page with everything you said. I think you did a good

⏹️ ▶️ John repeat of analog, not such a good summary of analog. Sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ John sorry, dad. Chief repeater and chief repeater.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, in my defense, I recorded that before WWDC. Like a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has happened since then. I couldn’t remember what I did or did not talk about, but that’s okay. Um, so yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s, that’s the plan and we’ll see how it goes. So, um, a couple of people have been kind enough to ask

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and, and I mean that genuinely, it’s very, very kind of them to ask, you know, are you going to do a Patreon or are you going to do,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, some sort of like membership to your website. Sitting here now, no, I don’t plan on that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not saying that is my forever answer, but sitting here now, no. How

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can you throw money my way if you’re so kind as to do so, which I have been asked, which is so unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice of people to say that. For now, just put it aside for me, I guess, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buy yourself some AfterShokz.

⏹️ ▶️ John ______ Start a savings account, special Casey savings account that your bank knows about

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey them. Just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ask. I’ve set it up with every major bank across the world. No, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey obviously I’m kidding, but keep that money in your head if I ever do come up with a Patreon or a Memberful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that. But for now, just if we say something’s really good on the podcast, a sponsor’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good, just make sure you use our coupon code. And if you wanna be a RelayFM member

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you wanna choose Analog as the show you like the most, I’m okay with that too.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But other than that, we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. Yeah, because that’s the thing too, like Relay has a membership program, we don’t, and all of us have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shows on Relay, so if you want to give us more money, individually or as a whole, you can just go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco subscribe and become a Relay member, and that helps us

⏹️ ▶️ John too. Why are you telling people to do Relay stuff? Go to our sponsor’s website, the sponsor on this podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John that you’re listening to now, and buy things from them with our code. That’s how you support

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of us. That’s what I said! No, and ultimately, if the time comes when sponsorship

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no longer makes financial sense whatever market forces or whatever reasons. And if the time comes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we ask you, the listeners, to pay us some amount of money per month,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I forget what our calculation was, to match enough to make Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not go out of business as himself. I think we’d have to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, was it 5% of people paying $5 a month? Was that it or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John was that

⏹️ ▶️ John half? It was worse than that. You’ve done the math wrong and it was even more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco grim. Yeah, it was like 10 or 15 percent would have to pay $5 a month. So it’s enough that it’s like, ooh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s rougher and less likely. But if the time comes that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we would need to do something like that, apply the money then, if you haven’t given it to all of our sponsors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly, exactly. But yeah, I mean, and I said this on Analog, and I will briefly repeat myself, sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, and say it here. It is an unbelievable privilege to record this show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with you guys and to record Analog with Mike, but even more so, it’s a tremendous and unbelievable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey privilege that I am able to make a tremendous difference on my children’s lives, hopefully for the best,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by being home with them for this window of time. And it would not be possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It literally would not be possible were it not for the ears that are hearing the words I’m saying right now. So to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey every listener that has ever bought a t-shirt, that has ever bought anything that that the sponsors have ever sold

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and used our code. To any of you that have ever given us your attention for any amount of time, thank you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so very, very much. And from the bottom of my heart, and I think I speak for the other guys, but from the bottom of my heart, I deeply, deeply appreciate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it because it literally is paying for my entire existence. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s because of you guys. So tell your friends about the show, buy some Casper, some Aftershocks, some Rovers, some Molecules,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buy all the things and I appreciate it.