Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

269: Cooled by Jellyfish

We invited pros to come on campus and join our Pro Listening Team to help us shape the next episode of our flagship podcast.

Episode Description:

Sponsored by:

  • Molekule: The only air purifier that actually destroys pollutants.
  • Betterment: Rethink what your money can do. Get up to 1 year managed free.
  • Hello Fresh: A meal-kit delivery service so you can just cook, eat, and enjoy. Use code ATP30 for $30 off your first week.

MP3 Header

Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Intro
  2. High-definition vinyl
  3. Battery-throttling notification 🖼️
  4. macOS 32-bit dialog 🖼️
  5. Sponsor: Molekule (code ATP)
  6. Follow-up: ProClip mounts
  7. Follow-up: Casey’s bloody rags
  8. Lyft subscriptions
  9. San Jose might be big
  10. Sponsor: Hello Fresh (code ATP30)
  11. Mac Pro, Pro Workflow Team
  12. Why get a Mac Pro?
  13. Sponsor: Betterment
  14. #askatp: Marco’s coffee gear
  15. #askatp: Which TiVo?
  16. #askatp: Clipboard managers
  17. Ending theme
  18. Post-show: John watches YouTube


⏹️ ▶️ John You just starting him without Casey, huh? I’m Gary’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rebooting. He said momentarily I mean that was a few minutes ago,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I takes to reboot takes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while not that long Not on my shiny new Mac Pro Mm-hmm. Hi.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hello. Sorry Rebooting your slow computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why you gonna be like that? It’s faster than John’s That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John probably true. I don’t have to reboot already running I don’t know what time I reboot is for system updates.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t have to. I just had this sneaking suspicion that I needed to. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have empathy for the machine, John. You’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John that reboot feeling?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my god.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a, what is it? It was Top Gun, wasn’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John where that song is from, but yes, that movie did feature that song.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Take me home or lose me forever, John Syracuse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, fun fact, Days of Thunder was the better movie between the two of them because they’re the same movie.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty sure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re not. Days of Thunder was the better one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Why do you think that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because well, A, everyone is going to tell me I’m wrong and they’re probably right, but I don’t care because planes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are not as fun as cars.

⏹️ ▶️ John What? I was waiting for a reason. I’m like, I figured, you know, you had some

⏹️ ▶️ John reasonable foundation for your opinion, but no, no.

High-definition vinyl

⏹️ ▶️ John No, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey not. No, let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talk about vinyl after this.

⏹️ ▶️ John High definition vinyl.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. I love that story so much. They’re like, if only there were some other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco round music medium that was longer than a vinyl record and could allow for more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco precise audio. Right, right, right. So I

⏹️ ▶️ John read it. I thought it was going to be like high definition vinyl, but

⏹️ ▶️ John instead it seemed like it was just a way to more precisely make vinyl, but

⏹️ ▶️ John everything else about it was the same. It wasn’t higher definition. it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey was like

⏹️ ▶️ John if we could

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey really

⏹️ ▶️ John carefully carve grooves in vinyl like more carefully than usual it’s like all right

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess I mean sure like it’s not okay I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John understand like I thought it was gonna be like a higher density or I was gonna do like it was good

⏹️ ▶️ John I was kind of imagining that it would make little pits for like ones and zeros like it would be like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco vinyl but CDs on vinyl you know I mean like there’s lots of things

⏹️ ▶️ John you could do to make hide actual high definition vinyl but instead they’re just more carefully

⏹️ ▶️ John carving grooves in vinyl.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah I’ve got I’ve got I’ve been sent that a couple times already.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just think like you know as somebody who has now seen you know all the sides of this like the appeal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of vinyl has nothing to do with its sound quality or fidelity or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dynamic range or any of the things they’re proposing to to increase like it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want those things you shouldn’t be using vinyl at all. You should be using digital

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sources. This is just crazy to me.

Battery-throttling notification

Chapter Battery-throttling notification image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, we should start with follow-up. iOS 11.3 has a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new battery throttling notification, which we were made aware of sometime in the last week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Stephen Devine was the first that I noticed to send us an image. It reads as follows, this iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has experienced an unexpected shutdown because the battery was unable to deliver the necessary peak power. Performance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey management has been applied to help prevent this from happening again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like a passive voice, performance management has been applied. Who applied it? The

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iPhone experienced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an unexpected shutdown. It experienced it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that is kind of true. It did. The phone did experience it. At least it didn’t blame you.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco There is actually

⏹️ ▶️ John no actor in that situation. The phone did experience something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You shut down your iPhone because of a problem. Yeah. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m very happy that they are notifying the user when battery throttling happens.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Big picture-wise, that’s good. They should have been doing this all along, and that would have made the problem a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco less severe. I don’t think the wording they’ve chosen here is particularly helpful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or even honest. You know, performance management has been applied.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think a lot of people are going to correctly know that that means your phone will now be slowed down.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like that’s a pretty big difference than performance management has been applied.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is a like you know dark pattern euphemism that is intentionally written

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to mask the truth, to confuse and kind of hide what’s actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going on in this huge paragraph that they know most people are not going to read and if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do read they’re not really gonna understand what it’s really doing. I wish that would’ve been a little more clear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the language, but at least they’re notifying people. I just wish they were notifying them in a more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honest way.

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t offer any remedies like the dialogue should say okay like here’s what happened and what is there

⏹️ ▶️ John anything I can do about it actually in this case there is what you can do about is get a new battery for your phone right

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John offer something like it’s not even as far as I can tell it’s not even a place like oh you know tap here for more

⏹️ ▶️ John information like if a user is interested enough in this very confusing vague

⏹️ ▶️ John like it could mean a lot of different things and you say I want to know more because it sounds like something bad might have happened to my phone presumably

⏹️ ▶️ John they knew something bad happened to the phone because they were using it two seconds ago and then the screen went black and had to wait for it to reboot.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. So if that happened to me and then my phone came back and it said this, I would be like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John what what can I do about that? And Apple has answers. There are easy answers. Hey, go get a new

⏹️ ▶️ John battery. But they don’t offer that in this dialogue anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, they could be a little more sure that, you know, they can say, like, your battery cannot can no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco longer run the phone at full speed. Like that is more direct. That is telling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them like your phone will be slow, it’s the battery’s fault, it’s something that you can therefore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know have some control over. You need to replace the battery. Like that you know using language that is more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honest and accountable I think would would do a lot of good here. The whole point

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of this notification is to fix the problem they had before which is they were

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slowing down people’s phones without telling them. This kind of sort of fixes that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But if the people don’t really know what’s going on and they later find out, oh, my phone has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been slowed down by apple, you know, because of this thing, I don’t think they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to feel better necessarily than they would if they weren’t told at all. Because if this is all they saw and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t really understand what was going on, then they effectively weren’t told at all. So it doesn’t really solve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the problem. I’m glad that they have a notification. I think you nailed it, Marco that, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it may not be perfect. There’s certainly, you know, issues that we can and just have taken with it. But I do think that telling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the user what the hell is going on is a good first step. And I welcome this improvement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but we need to subtract some of the California from this dialogue and apply a little bit of East Coast to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Good friggin’ luck, my friend. I agree with you, but good luck. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean, how can you expect people who don’t live in the real world to communicate with people who live in the real world?

⏹️ ▶️ John Worded by Apple in California.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, well done. All right, moving on.

macOS 32-bit dialog

Chapter macOS 32-bit dialog image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac OS, this is actually breaking news, and I mean that genuinely. This is just breaking in the last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hour or two. So we’re recording this in the evening of April 11th on Wednesday night, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently a few people are reporting all at the same moment that Mac OS 10.13.4

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is now going to warn users about 32-bit apps. This is a quote from Jason Snell. “‘Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey long transition away from 32-bit software “‘takes another step beginning April 12th, When the clock strikes switching

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hour local time, Mac’s running a Mac OS 10.13.4 will display a warning, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey first time any non-Apple app that isn’t 64-bit compliant is opened.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, this isn’t that surprising. They’re clearly, you know, like they have not been that secretive that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 32-bit support is on its way out. This is, it’s just like what they did on iOS when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS 11, I believe was the one that dropped, right? I think so. Yeah, and so like for iOS 10 like 10.4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever 10.4 whatever the last version of 10 was they started showing this alert then and you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over iOS apps and they added a little section in settings where you could see which of your apps was 32-bit.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s that’s nice you can do this. I think it’s going to be more disruptive on the Mac like we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mentioned briefly last week, but you know telling users what’s about to happen before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it happens in you know six months to a year or whenever it would be is certainly a good thing. This

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dialogue I think is better worded. This one actually tells you what

⏹️ ▶️ John the problem is. I don’t know. I’ve always found these apps like when the one happened on 10 point whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody I knew who didn’t already know what the dialogue was about guessed correctly from the thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how they should have worded it because people don’t care about 32 versus 64. But what it actually says

⏹️ ▶️ John is, so it’s a two-line dialogue. It’s got the bold line and then the longer non-bold sentence underneath it. It

⏹️ ▶️ John says, whatever the application name is not optimized for your Mac. Oh yeah, this actually is a terrible dialogue.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Now, is not optimized for

⏹️ ▶️ John your Mac, that’s not really true. Like, I know what they’re trying to get at, but it makes

⏹️ ▶️ John it seem like the same app that was running fine yesterday now somehow, like, because people read optimized and think it means

⏹️ ▶️ John slower or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the same speed as it was yesterday, right? And then the other part says, this app needs to be updated by its developer to

⏹️ ▶️ John improve compatibility. That’s closer to true, because what the remedy

⏹️ ▶️ John is, developer of the app needs to do something like you user can’t do anything about this the developer needs to do it

⏹️ ▶️ John and why is It need to be updated to improve compatibility Compatibility what compatibility with an OS that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to release sometime in the semi near future That’s what the competitive they don’t say that that’s what it’s about.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s tough to word this one. I kind of get that That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually really bad So like, you know So not you’re right not optimized means

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it might be slow which is very different from it’s going to stop working in six months if you update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your Mac OS. And when the iOS dialogue came out, if I remember correctly, I think it says something along the lines

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that it won’t work in future versions of iOS, or in a future version of iOS. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, like, to improve compatibility, that’s pretty euphemistic too. That’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, what they should say is this app needs to be updated by its developer to work on a future version

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Mac OS. Something like that, that’s even a little more vague about the timeline, but just to say, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, Improve compatibility doesn’t mean anything not optimized means it’ll run slowly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The truth here is this is going to stop working completely soon

⏹️ ▶️ John And the iOS 11 dialog said app name needs to be updated which I think is better than app

⏹️ ▶️ John name What does it feel inside

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is not optimized is

⏹️ ▶️ John not optimized right needs to be updated It’s much more clear and then the the subtext was the developer of this app needs

⏹️ ▶️ John to update it to work with iOS 11 So not only was it clear that’s perfect reason needs to be updated So it will

⏹️ ▶️ John work with like a future OS, but it tells you the name iOS 11 So yeah, the iOS dialogue was definitely better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that is perfect. Oh, I before we move on So the so that dialogue has buttons it has an

⏹️ ▶️ John okay button, which is just like okay, whatever nothing happens Your Apple launch them by the way, like it doesn’t stop

⏹️ ▶️ John your app from launching It just shows us the first time you launch it and if you say, okay It just launches and it’s just like it was the day before the

⏹️ ▶️ John style I appeared And there’s a learn more button and learn more button takes you to Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John Knowledge base article about this which is pretty good and it explains, you know what’s going on in more detail

⏹️ ▶️ John than the dialogs, obviously. Which, by the way, this is, you know, the iOS thing lacks this. It doesn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no place to get more information. As far as I can tell, I don’t know, I should try, I try to get that to come up and tap it or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, the part that stuck out to me in this knowledge base article

⏹️ ▶️ John is when it gets to the point where, like, it explains to you, like, you can’t do anything about this, developer needs to update it, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is why, blah, blah, blah. Near the end, there’s a section that says, how do I get in touch with

⏹️ ▶️ John the app developer? which I think is a good question. So you’re telling me, you know, people see this dialogue

⏹️ ▶️ John and they say the developer needs to update it and they’re like, developer? Like, I don’t, do I even know what that

⏹️ ▶️ John is, let alone who it is? How would I find the developer of this app? And if

⏹️ ▶️ John I was tasked with writing this, I would find myself

⏹️ ▶️ John writing like seven paragraphs about like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco well.

⏹️ ▶️ John So sometimes it’s not an individual, sometimes it’s a company, sometimes the company that used to make the application is

⏹️ ▶️ John gone, you know? like how would you find the person maybe they’ve moved on maybe they don’t have that job anymore maybe no one is maintaining

⏹️ ▶️ John this software you know there’s no 100% sure way to find the

⏹️ ▶️ John person who wrote this but like but of course they can’t do that like they’re not going to go on for 20 pages so they have

⏹️ ▶️ John a very short bit of information that like I don’t know I can’t think of much

⏹️ ▶️ John better but this seems bad to me the easiest way to contact a developer is to look them up

⏹️ ▶️ John on the web to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco find

⏹️ ▶️ John the name of the developer of an app open the app, click the app name in the menu bar and choose about. So they say into the about

⏹️ ▶️ John two sentences, right? First one, it says, look them up on the web. What if the developer is john smith? Look them

⏹️ ▶️ John up on the web, the about box, maybe it will have a link to their website, but maybe you’ll just have a name or maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll just say my cool software company incorporated, you know, 2010, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s that’s really just throwing people into the deep end. Like, I don’t know, do Google search,

⏹️ ▶️ John figure it out. Maybe you’ll find somebody. This is going to cause people with the same name as 32-bit

⏹️ ▶️ John app developers to get a lot of bad email.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My favorite part of this entire page is the very first sentence in the body text. State-of-the-art

⏹️ ▶️ Marco technology is what makes a Mac a Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John That was written years ago, though. It

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John been updated, this knowledge base article.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, I was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to say, look at the Macs that are for sale today and tell me which of them have state-of-the-art technology.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All of the Macs that are for sale, not just the most recent models. Let’s see, does the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air have state-of-the-art technology? How about the Mac Mini?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is still a product in their lineup.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can’t say whether it’s like fixed my allergies yet because I’ve only had it for about a week, but I’ll tell you one thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the time to try it because I think the pollen season is about to kick in in full force over the next couple of

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Follow-up: ProClip mounts

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Shaun Harding writes, Hey, I had one of those ProClip mounts that went into a gap in the dash for my Audi

⏹️ ▶️ Casey S5. It not only went in the gap, but also had adhesive. I was hesitant, but gave

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in. And I lost my desktop. Hello, sorry, things are happening on my computer. Where the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did that go?

⏹️ ▶️ John While you were reading, did the window disappear out from under your eyeballs?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, because I was opening a new window in… Before this all… Before I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey started reading all this, and then it opened, and then things disappeared. Wow, your computer is slow. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would you stop? God, you’re so mean to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John me.

⏹️ ▶️ John You were opening a window, then you had time to read two sentences, then the window finally opened? I was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey opening a fing VNC window, leave me alone. Now let me reboot this whole fing thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco opening a VNC window? What are you using VNC for?

⏹️ ▶️ John What are you remotely controlling?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m remotely controlling the laptop that’s sitting like two inches away from me because I am trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey look at something for work real quick so I don’t have to worry about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you doing air traffic control during this podcast? Is that what’s going on? Are you trying to land planes at Dallas? That’s exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John what I’m doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey We aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talking about the Mac Pro yet. You can’t like be paying your bills and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know, I know, I know. We’re getting there. All right, so let me just reboot this whole damn thing. Sean Harding writes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m rebooting. Not literally rebooting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh, just segment. He’s trying to keep

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the show, but I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John pretty sure it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in. No, it’s not going in. Please know. Sean Harding writes, I had one of those ProClip mounts that went

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the gap in the day, it went into a gap in the dash for my Audi S5. It not only went in the gap, but it also had adhesive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was hesitant, but gave in and now I have a big gap in the trim and adhesive residue. Two thumbs down.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the ProClip mounts that I was talking about last week, and they go in your car, like they’re made for each individual car model.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Certain, you know, the design of certain dashboards and stuff like the, certain ones are gonna be easier or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco harder to affix something very securely to than others. I lucked out in that mine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just uses the air vent and just kind of uses like a pressure fit inside the air vent top and bottom so that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t leave anything behind and there’s no like permanent dash damage by it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if your car is one where it has to do something a little more aggressive, then you know, that makes sense to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have that be a problem for you. You know, I just, it isn’t a problem for me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Also, if it’s a lease, maybe you don’t wanna mess with the dash, because who knows what they’ll say about that when you try

⏹️ ▶️ John to give it back. The thing about the vent ones that some people wrote in about is

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re like, oh, isn’t it bad to keep your phone there in the winter with the heat blowing out of the vent on it? And

⏹️ ▶️ John I just assume that every car has that little dial or whatever that lets you turn off the vent. And I would suggest

⏹️ ▶️ John that if you, in the winter, if you have your phone in a vent clip, turn the vent behind the phone

⏹️ ▶️ John off so heat isn’t constantly blowing in the back of your phone, because that’s terrible. In the summer, air conditioning blowing in the back, that’s probably great,

⏹️ ▶️ John because it gets pretty hot in the car with the sun beating down on your phone. So that’ll probably even out. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if you have no dial, because your car is a weird, super modern thing

⏹️ ▶️ John where there’s no way to control the air vents except for a tiny dot in the middle of a giant

⏹️ ▶️ John field that you drag around as a vague way to suggest to the car where air might come out.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty cool, to be honest. I haven’t seen it yet, but it sounds pretty cool. But yours doesn’t have that? I thought that was on all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Tesla.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s only the model three, which I haven’t seen in real life yet. But if you

⏹️ ▶️ John just want to turn off the event that your phone is attached to, though, I’m not sure how you can do that, but dragging a puck around a little ice hockey rink.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John as far as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know, I don’t think I can turn off event. They have a little like slider things. You can redirect it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but there’s no I don’t think I can turn that event off.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John You don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the little dial. No, but this isn’t a problem in reality because automatic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco climate control never has the heat blowing out of the center vents. It’s always blowing in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feet vent, the defroster vent or both. but it’s never blowing out the front vents. That’s not how you’re supposed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to heat a car. Why wouldn’t you want it out of the front vents? Because you don’t need heat blowing in your face.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You need it blowing in your feet. Sometimes my

⏹️ ▶️ John face is cold. I’ll tell you where I want the air.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would not consider this a big problem in reality for almost anybody because the way you’re supposed to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco climate managing your car, you shouldn’t really be blowing a lot of hot air through the front vents anyway. And also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re using your phone in a dock and running like waves or something, already running so hot that you know it actually might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco improve the heat efficiency of your car to be blowing it across your phone on the way to your face

⏹️ ▶️ John okay because the phone is you know 150 degrees but the air coming out of the vent to 75 so it’s actually cooling

⏹️ ▶️ John it.

Follow-up: Casey’s bloody rags

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, with regard to my beloved blue towel, speaking of car-related things, Endig5

⏹️ ▶️ Casey writes that the surgical rag that I use is called a HUCK, H-U-C-K. It’s a sterile towel used to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dry hands after a surgical scrub before operating. And apparently he has a million of them. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then Eugene Fryzen writes in that they’re actually available on Amazon. So I’ll put a link in the show notes. I was not aware of this,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is super good news because I kind of need some. We also got some feedback about whether or not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s plastic ventilating onto the interior of your windshield. John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you have any thoughts on that or do you not care?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, that’s true. Outgassing from the, you know, that new car smell and various other things that you smell in cars, outgassing

⏹️ ▶️ John from carpets and from plastic, and a lot of that crap gets all over your windshield and makes it gross.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fun!

Lyft subscriptions

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally or almost finally actually car subscriptions Zach friend of mine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey asked why not have like a lift subscription You know like insurance the light users would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey subsidize the heavy ones that sounded like a brilliant idea and then fast forward like three days

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after I heard this feedback from my buddy Zach and I Somehow saw an article or a headline

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that about how lift actually is or will soon be offering subscriptions Which I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know was the thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the kind of thing that like it’s it’s nice in a lot of situations And it might even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it might even prove to be nice in the majority of situations for some people But the the great flexibility

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of having your own car parked in your driveway or in your garage or near in front of your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco place Is that it’s always there ready for you? It’s it’s dedicated capacity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just for you if you’re relying on not public transit But if you’re relying on like services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Lyft or uber or other like kind of car share services there’s only a certain number of cars

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there at any given time and they’re only in a certain number of places and they’re a lot, you know, less densely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco available once you get out of the major cities. When you have your own car it’s always there ready for you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no matter when you want to use it with zero weight or close enough to zero weight. When you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco relying on something like this it might work nine times out of ten but then the tenth time you go to use it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh there aren’t any for the next 45 minutes or it’s a spike because of demand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or the nearest one is you know too far away and doesn’t want to take your ride or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you keep getting the same one over and over again that some driver that’s terrible that you don’t want that you know their car smells like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco smoke and cats and stuff and it’s like when it’s yours when it’s your car it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always there ready to go and so depending on how important that car and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mobility are to you and I think for most people in most of America it’s very important because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the public infrastructure just isn’t there for most of us. Having that car be dedicated to you, having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your own that’s always ready to go, that’s always right there, that’s always yours and you can put your stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in it and you can know that it’s always going to be there and be ready, that’s going to have a pretty big advantage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a lot of people. So I don’t see personal car

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ownership of some form going away. Like Lyft and Uber, that’s not that. That’s something else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The subscription is just another way to have cars that are yours. So that I think makes some sense maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the future, but it’s never going to be totally replaced in America unless our density

⏹️ ▶️ Marco radically changes, which I don’t see happening.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, this is a psychological pricing ploy, like for city dwellers who are never going to own a car because they can’t afford a parking

⏹️ ▶️ John spot for it or whatever, you use Lyft all the time anyway, you can convince enough of them

⏹️ ▶️ John to subscribe, essentially paying more, like Zach said. Most people will say, oh, it’s just easier to

⏹️ ▶️ John pay that subscription and not have to worry about the hassle of paying each time and everything, and maybe that’ll make me feel

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, I’ll it more I have a subscription I’ll use it more right and maybe they won’t use it more you know

⏹️ ▶️ John and so this will end up making more money from the people who thought they were gonna really totally

⏹️ ▶️ John use that subscription all the time but actually take the same number of rides as they always did it ends up being a bad deal for them but

⏹️ ▶️ John the few heavy users get a really good deal because now they can just ride as much as they want for a flat fee so

⏹️ ▶️ John lift will figure out the economics of it I’m sure and try to but that it’s the type of pricing psychology that

⏹️ ▶️ John can make everybody involved feel like they’re getting a good deal even though obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John you know they’re not right so Lyft would be happy if they make more money and the users

⏹️ ▶️ John would be happy if they perceive the the subscription

⏹️ ▶️ John as a good value regardless of whether it’s actually a good value.

San Jose might be big

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, somebody, and I don’t have this email in front of me, somebody was very grumpy about the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fact that we called San Jose not very big. And John, did you put this in here? Would you like to?

⏹️ ▶️ John It happened last year too when we were talking about San Jose. And we got so much feedback about it. I forget if we ever even did follow

⏹️ ▶️ John up about it, but we should. And because I’ve totally

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco forgot

⏹️ ▶️ John about the follow up from last year already. We’re like, oh, San Jose, like nobody’s there. It’s empty. It’s not like San Francisco.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not a big city like San Francisco. And anytime we say anything like that, someone from San Jose or near San Jose

⏹️ ▶️ John writes in to to tell us, well, you know, San Jose is bigger than San Francisco has a bigger population

⏹️ ▶️ John in San Francisco. You know, all the things about how San Jose is just massive compared to everything that we

⏹️ ▶️ John be, you know, we’re saying it’s small, but it’s not right. And to that, I would say

⏹️ ▶️ John Texas has more people than San Jose. But if I drop a pin anywhere in Texas, chances are good. I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ John to look around and not see that much. It’s all about density.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John San Jose, San Jose is bigger. San Jose has more people. But practically

⏹️ ▶️ John speaking, if you are a person, you get dropped down in W W C and you look around, you’d be like, where are all the people

⏹️ ▶️ John as a tumbleweed goes by, right? Like it is very different experience from the

⏹️ ▶️ John vastly higher density of where Moscone is in San Francisco. So that’s what we meant.

⏹️ ▶️ John We know it’s a big city. We know there’s lots of people somewhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, I was interested, not a single person refuted my Truman Show theory about everybody who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco works there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re just writing your name down a little book and a little, you know, a picture of you that says, do not serve

⏹️ ▶️ John this person or serve this person even more slowly than usual. I’m not sure I’d be able to tell the difference.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, Oh, here we go. Oh, you wanted to order something. I don’t know if I can do that. I’ll check with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my boss to see if you can order something.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I’m going to laugh when you get to so power whatever it’s called and and they are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, Oh wait, you’re Marco. Yeah, we’re not serving you. What would you do? You would have nowhere to go. You would have no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey court to rule over.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’d go to the beer and sausage place up the street. Fair enough.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, it’s time. I’m going to go to sleep now. Guys,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s been some Mac Pro news.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love that you’re bringing this up. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey interested in this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John topic. What

⏹️ ▶️ Marco am

⏹️ ▶️ John I going to do? You could have just moved on. You should summarize the Mac Pro news. That’s what you should do. Yeah, chief

⏹️ ▶️ Casey summarizer in chief. I’m going to attempt to. So friend of the show, said with no sarcasm, friend of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the show, Matthew Pantin, I’m going Panzerino was invited by himself, which is actually kind of interesting in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and of itself. I don’t know if we need to unpack that right now or not, but Matt Panzerino was invited to Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and was put in front of several different, both executives and engineers and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so on to talk about, hey, what’s going on with the Mac Pro? And my summary,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I’m sure both of you will take issue with, and that’s fine, but my summary is Apple wanted to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey give a little more insight into what’s going on with the the Mac Pro, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could, we can and surely will pontificate about why that is, but one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can assume, and I think they actually said that, hey, we don’t want you to make purchasing decisions on the hope that the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro is coming out later this year. So they made it plain that it will not be out until 2019. They said 2019, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we don’t know when in 2019. They

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said that, and this was what I found most interesting, they’ve created a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey workflow group is I believe what they called it. And what that basically means is they have contracted and or hired.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Creative professionals to sit literally next to the people who

⏹️ ▶️ Casey work on say final cut pro and work on the Mac pro as well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in order to better understand what their workflows are. And they cited an example and I think it was final cut pro. It doesn’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey matter, but they cited an example of, Oh, these creative professionals. There’s they, they open this one dialogue

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and final cut pro all the time. And it takes like 10 seconds to open this dialogue.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And nobody at Apple somehow knew this. And so because they’re now sitting next to each other,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, the creative professionals walk down the hall and said, hey guys, can we do something about this dialogue? Because this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sucks. And sure enough, it turned out there was like an error in some driver somewhere or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And they were able to fix it. So the point of all this is Apple is trying to engage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the broader professional community, people like us, and say, hey, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, So you need to buy an iMac Pro, go buy an iMac Pro. Don’t wait for the Mac Pro, because you’re not getting it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a while. Additionally, they’re engaging with the broader professional community in the sense that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’ve asked some of these people to come in-house and help them understand what their workflows are.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which I think you can argue both that that’s great and that’s terrible, and I’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’re about to do exactly that. But one way or another, it is more insight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than we’ve had into the Mac Pro in a long, long time. And it shows us that it’s still a thing, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exciting. It tells us roughly, with an emphasis on roughly, when it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be released. And they also said that, no, no, no, it’s going to be modular. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey am happy to report, John Syracusa, that they are making it plain, or perhaps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reiterating that they are making a display for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Reiterating. Old news, not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey news.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Still, I know you’re very excited. And I am happy that you’re happy. That is, I think, my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey summary. And as much as I’m snarking about this, this is actually pretty fascinating, even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me. I don’t see a Mac Pro in my future, but this is really, really, really interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a very different approach than Apple’s taken in the past. And whether or not I view a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro as something I need to buy, and honestly, I don’t think it’s something that any of us need to buy,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but we can argue about that another time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I still think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that this approach, I still think that this approach is really fascinating. So with that in mind,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will open the floor. Perhaps we can start with Marco. What are your thoughts?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, to me, this has been positioned and summarized by many,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco including Chief Summarizer and Chief in part, as a Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco round table successor from last year. But there’s really no new information

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here about the Mac Pro. The only thing that we know about the Mac Pro that we didn’t know before is that it’s definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not coming out this year. That’s the only thing that’s new here. What

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this was really about, I think, is setting expectations for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, for WBDC to come and go and for the rest of the year to come and go without pros

⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying, hey, where the heck’s the Mac Pro? That’s really what I think this was about on that side.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then to kind of paper over that or to offset that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with something that’s positive by showing off that they have this new, you know, kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in-house study of pro users in, you know, in their natural environment.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And seeing like…

⏹️ ▶️ John Geometrically speaking, this announcement was an open-faced shit sandwich that fell face down on

⏹️ ▶️ John the floor. Because you get the bad news.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco There’s no good news,

⏹️ ▶️ John bad news, good news. You just get the bad news and then you get the good news. So the bad news is

⏹️ ▶️ John no Mac Pro this year. And the good news is I look at the Pro Workflow team. Isn’t that cool?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, you know, honestly, I mean, this is, you know, heavy on the PR puff, obviously.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you know, not from Panzer, but from Apple. And there’s not a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new information really here. But it is interesting that this Pro, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco group thing was created there and is, you know, being observed and being worked with.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is the more interesting part of this announcement by far. The actual, again, there’s no information

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the Mac Pro. We don’t know anything about the Mac Pro, except it’s not coming this year. I can speculate on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why. We all can, many of us have. Honestly, I don’t think it’s that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interesting yet because, again, we have no new information except that big hole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the timeline of it’s going to be next year. Which I’m glad they said it’s going to be 2019

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as opposed to it’s not going to be this year because then it could be 2025 or never.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So at least they committed to a year. You can also speculate as many people have, why is it taking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple so long to develop what should probably just be a fairly straightforward like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tower or something tower like? The answer to that that’s most likely is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last year, like about a year ago when they had that roundtable, I think it is very likely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they literally had not even started yet. That it was like it was decided within a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco short time before that that they were going to do this. And that means that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from 2013 until 2017 they were probably not doing any work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all on a Mac pro. They were probably assuming the iMac pro was it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they were only working on the iMac pro. So it’s not that they couldn’t do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a new tower in five years or whatever since the last Mac pro. It’s that they can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do it to have a new tower in a year and a half. That’s I think what we’re really seeing here. Even that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is slightly concerning because even that’s like you know what pros want is new hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in some kind of expandable box. We don’t need fancy designs. We don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know a lot of different types of quote innovation. We just need new guts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a box and for Apple to be you know kind of taking their sweet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time and trying to work on probably something that’s like really, you know, highly designed, highly custom.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s nice. I’m sure that satisfies Apple, but that’s not really what pros are asking for for this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco product. But I don’t think we can talk Apple out of that kind of design anymore. I think that’s kind of just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what they do. And from that point of view, the timescale seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasonable that they just started last year and they’re not just doing something basic, even though many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of us want them to do exactly that for this products because they can save the innovation for all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the rest of their products including the iMac Pro which is fairly innovative in a few ways and it’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice I really like the iMac Pro but anyway they’re not doing that so oh well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do think it’s interesting also to think now maybe one of the reasons they’re taking a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of time on this is you know what I expected was the iMac Pro guts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a box with a couple of GPU slots and maybe maybe you know space for a few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M.2 drive modules. I don’t think that’s what they’re doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And when the iMac Pro came out, and when we saw how awesome it was, and how few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco downsides it had, and how few restrictions it had, one of the things that we said at the time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was, what the heck is left for the Mac Pro to address? How much headroom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco above this can the Mac Pro really achieve? Are they gonna go dual processor maybe?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Have many graphics cards supported or different types of slots or whatever? Who knows what, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We were trying to figure out what else, what is left for the Mac Pro to do that the iMac Pro doesn’t do. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe in order to create more headroom in that area, maybe that took

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bit of special engineering. Maybe they’re doing something they haven’t done before. Like for instance, if they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco working from the roadmap of the old Mac Pro, the 2013 Mac Pro, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one had this rigid GPU arrangement that only supported these two GPUs and this one kind of weird arrangement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with this kind of weird integration with the Thunderbolt bus. And it only supported one CPU

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the whatever it is, four or six RAM slots and one SSD module.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe they’re doing dual socket CPUs and that dramatically complicates things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and how you have to lay out the internals, how you have to cool things. Maybe they’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a box that can accommodate lots of different configurations like the old towers could. So maybe you could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have one or two CPUs, one or four GPUs, like you know, they did all sorts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of crazy things back with the old cheese graters and stuff. The difference now is that the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cheese graters were all before Thunderbolt. There was a lot less internal PCI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Express bandwidth and things like that that had to be allocated to external storage.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And GPUs were lower bandwidth and everything was lower bandwidth back then. And so to design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something now, you have to really consider how you balance PCI Express allocations

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and lanes and speeds between internal and external stuff, how you route video signals over the Thunderbolt,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and how you, do you route the output of the GPU to a Thunderbolt port on the back? How do you do that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s fairly complicated to design a really good Mac Pro tower

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with modern features and modern bandwidth and everything else. that also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has interchangeable slots. Like, that’s a hard thing. So if they’re doing something like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco taking two years to do it seems reasonable. I don’t know if that’s what they’re doing, but I hope so.

⏹️ ▶️ John So like the people were saying, why don’t they just give us a box and slap things together. Like, I think there’s a minimum

⏹️ ▶️ John bar of, not even innovation, but just quality,

⏹️ ▶️ John or attention to detail, or thoughtfulness that we expect from AVA. A lot of people look at the cheese

⏹️ ▶️ John graters and say, oh, it’s just a tower case. Yeah, it’s a nice looking tower case, but whatever. It’s just a tower, like it’s not,

⏹️ ▶️ John it has a door, but it’s just got a bunch of slots and a motherboard and RAM. And it’s like, well, it’s not much different from

⏹️ ▶️ John PC Tower, as evidenced by all the PC Tower clones that came after it. But I think that

⏹️ ▶️ John the very first one, the Power Mac G5, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think that probably took them longer to design that plain, boring tower case and

⏹️ ▶️ John everything that goes into it than they’re gonna end up spending on this Mac Pro. at Mac Pro, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not because they’re insisting on doing something really weird like the trash can,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Because the Power Mac G5 was not really weird. It was a tower, like straightforward.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like it wasn’t weird at all. But if you look at it, it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, it’s very carefully designed. They, you know, the case is,

⏹️ ▶️ John has very, you know, simple design with a big curve piece of aluminum

⏹️ ▶️ John wrapped around a minimum number of seams, uh, the door, uh, giving you

⏹️ ▶️ John access to the insides, uh, you know, the, the way the door fits in and that whole mechanism, how they route all the ribbon

⏹️ ▶️ John cables. So they’re not that, you know, to make it look nice on the inside. So the ribbon cables are all tucked behind

⏹️ ▶️ John the motherboard and are just the right length and stuff like that. Um, the way the motherboard is laid out, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, all, all the various custom chips that might go into it that aren’t in any other Mac, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John rocket science and it’s not like the thing that people are afraid of, like, oh, there going to be shaped like a squid and it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ John to have you know thunderbolt 3 connecting everything and like you know like all sorts of uh just

⏹️ ▶️ John make me a box say apple is doing that we’re just making you a box it is literally a tower

⏹️ ▶️ John it is the air comes in the front and out the back it is totally straightforward but doing that

⏹️ ▶️ John the apple way takes longer than people think and

⏹️ ▶️ John i kind of want them to do it the apple way like if you’re in a super big hurry i can understand like you’re like

⏹️ ▶️ John we need towers yesterday we can’t use the iMac Pro for whatever reasons, just

⏹️ ▶️ John slap it together. People who would be happy with a Hackintosh. I don’t care what it looks like, how

⏹️ ▶️ John nice it is, I don’t care how nice the seams are or whatever, just slap it together. But I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think Apple is really capable of doing that. Even its products,

⏹️ ▶️ John its quote unquote worst products, like the products that we complain about, like, oh, you’re still selling the MacBook Air or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook Air is still nice, industrial design wise, the screen is gross, but everything else about

⏹️ ▶️ John it you know it looks expensive and carefully designed like it’s not falling

⏹️ ▶️ John apart and has weird seams and things poking out of it and doesn’t look slapped together it looks old

⏹️ ▶️ John but it doesn’t look slapped together Apple generally just is not you know institutionally

⏹️ ▶️ John capable of making hardware that looks like it’s been slapped together like

⏹️ ▶️ John on a speedy schedule like we didn’t have time to actually design this so we just use a bunch of stock parts and we screwed them together like

⏹️ ▶️ John the way the bed wrap of of American cars or any car maker that use a parts bin dashboard

⏹️ ▶️ John where we have a bunch of things that we use in all our cars like the window switches or whatever and

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re not going to design custom ones for this car because it’s too much trouble. So just slapping the same switches that we use on all our other cars.

⏹️ ▶️ John American car makers used to do stuff like this all the time these days. There’s more custom parts in cars

⏹️ ▶️ John than you would expect. But that type of thing is just not how Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John does things. They’re not, aside from trying to share the same stupid keyboard on all their laptops, they, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think this thing is gonna, you know, if it’s as, it could be as

⏹️ ▶️ John boring as bread and butter, and it’s still gonna take them two years to make it, because that’s just how long this stuff takes.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like you were saying, Marco, with like, you were thinking that it would just be the iMac Pro internals.

⏹️ ▶️ John I still think that. I, yeah, I thought that from the beginning, that, look, don’t get your hopes

⏹️ ▶️ John up for the insides of this Mac Pro to be anything other than the insides of that, in terms of specs. Like, obviously, things will

⏹️ ▶️ John be rearranged, and there’d be a new board and, you know, different slots and stuff like that, but fully expected

⏹️ ▶️ John to have a T2 and to have the same class of Xeon and so on and so forth. Now with

⏹️ ▶️ John the delay, I still more or less expect it to be rearranged iMac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John internals. Like I don’t expect it to have a T3 chip, I expect it to have a T2 chip, right? Because they don’t have time

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a whole other one of those in this timeline, right? Unless they were already making it for the iMac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John successor, which I think they are not, right? So I expect iMac Pro internals,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe with the newer Xeon, if it’s a drop-in replacement, right? More slots for everything,

⏹️ ▶️ John more RAM slots, more storage slots, possibly more

⏹️ ▶️ John room for internal storage, right? Just like capacity, you know, from the design,

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of the design brief of this thing should be like, more thermal capacity than an iMac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John and every other feature flows from that. Because if you don’t do more thermal capacity than an iMac Pro, then the

⏹️ ▶️ John only thing The only benefit you’re getting is, well, if the screen breaks, you don’t lose your whole computer. Right? So I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John this thing is going to have higher thermal ceiling than the iMac Pro, and then you can do lots of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John with that thermal ceiling. And then it becomes a question of talking to these pro people, like, or whatever, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John what do you want? Do you want two CPUs? Would you rather have more PCI Express slots? Do we have to offer you both?

⏹️ ▶️ John If we just made all of them have one CPU, would that be okay? How much internal storage do you want versus external? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s all like how you spend your thermal budget. but the budget has to be way higher

⏹️ ▶️ John than the iMac Pro. And anybody, capacity. How much storage can you put in it? How much RAM

⏹️ ▶️ John can you put in it, right? And then of course, how much heat can it dissipate? How many GPUs can you put in it? How

⏹️ ▶️ John big can the GPUs be? And then finally, like you said, in the iMac Pro, one of the reasons you like

⏹️ ▶️ John it is because it doesn’t sound like a hair dryer all the time. And this, to make

⏹️ ▶️ John a big tower computer that has high thermal capacity but it’s also reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ John quiet is tricky. Like I think about all the PCs I see and sometimes lust

⏹️ ▶️ John after that have these, you know, nicely designed PCs that have big cooling capacity

⏹️ ▶️ John and try to be quiet. That doesn’t happen if you just take a box and slap a bunch of fans

⏹️ ▶️ John in it. Like you have to be thoughtful in some ways to make sure you don’t have any weird hotspots because you

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t think about this component over there. Like I know people at Bill’s Seas are like, oh, just get a really big diameter fan

⏹️ ▶️ John and put a whole bunch of them in there. And it’s like straightforward. put pieces together but hand assembling a PC

⏹️ ▶️ John like that unless you have lots of experience and know exactly how everything’s gonna work with a bunch of custom

⏹️ ▶️ John parts can lead to weird things where the heat gradients that you didn’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ John or or a particular component that is not getting adequate cooling because there’s just no way to route air to there and you

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just it’s hacky and it’s not it’s not up to Apple’s quality so I think

⏹️ ▶️ John that even if Apple is making the most boring box we could possibly think

⏹️ ▶️ John of, that they are going to do a better job

⏹️ ▶️ John than I think some people would want, those hackintosh type customers. And as far as I’m concerned, as someone

⏹️ ▶️ John who doesn’t need this thing right now, although you may disagree when you think to how old my Mac is, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I would rather, like spend the time. Spend the time to make, even if it’s a boring tower, spend the time to make a boring tower

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s as nice as a cheese grater. Spend the time to make it look nice. spending time to make sure

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s super reliable, that it’s quiet, figure out a way to make it quiet. And yes, spend the time talking

⏹️ ▶️ John to people, the various pros, and saying, what do you want out of this machine? Like, do we have to

⏹️ ▶️ John make two slots for CPUs, or is that something that nobody wants and we don’t have to do that? Because I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re gonna have 17 different configurable versions of this, right? And I also don’t think they’re going to

⏹️ ▶️ John make it some magic modular, snap-together, future technology Thunderbolt 3-powered

⏹️ ▶️ John octopus thing. I know lots of people think that, you know, 2019, this is gonna be some crazy trash can, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that. I think it’s gonna be a fairly straightforward machine. I just want it to be nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just, I’m struggling because I do see both sides of this. Like on the one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey side, just like you guys had said, you know, why not just make, take the old cheese grater,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, form factor, slap new bits in it and call it a day. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s been a lot of changes to the Mac in the last couple of years. You know, what used to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the purposes of this conversation, what used to be just vanilla Intel motherboards with vanilla Intel chips

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on them now are not quite so simple. We have, you know, the T2 that one of you guys mentioned earlier.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have all these different, you know, coprocessors. We have a touch bar that we have never seen be external

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the device. We have a secure enclave. There’s so many different things that make this so much more complex than before.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And when you also add modularity into this,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because there’s basically no Apple computer sold today

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is as modular as we are expecting and being told that this will be. And I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey imagine it’s easy to keep up with these extremely stringent security requirements

⏹️ ▶️ Casey while also doing this modular thing. So as an example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like this phantom Apple display, this new cinema display, if you will, presumably that’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have a camera in it and I site camera in it or FaceTime camera, whatever they’re calling it now. Presumably they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to want that to be controlled by, you know, the T2 or whatever it is that controls them these days.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How do you do that when it’s not part of the device itself? How does that work?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So yeah, I mean, you could just say, ah, screw it. If somebody can hack your camera, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tough nuggies, you made this bed yourself, but that’s not Apple’s way. So I understand all the angst

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about, oh, we’ll just, you know, use a cheese grater, put some new bits in it and walk away. And I could make a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty good argument that they should do that and then do the real Mac Pro afterwards. But just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you said, John, like that’s not Apple’s way. Apple’s way is to make this interesting and innovative

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and smart. And I think and I hope that’s what they’re doing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, nice. Like it doesn’t have to be innovative because it’s like as a cheese grater, is it innovative? Like what’s innovative

⏹️ ▶️ John about the cheese grater? The only thing that’s innovative about it is how nice it is. Like it’s not it was just it’s just a tower

⏹️ ▶️ John case like the there was the CPUs weren’t arranged in an octagon it wasn’t cooled by

⏹️ ▶️ John like jellyfish like it was just a tower case with fans and had hard drives and RAM

⏹️ ▶️ John and slots and like it was very straightforward. But it’s nice that

⏹️ ▶️ John the trash can was innovative. Wow this tube shaped thing with a chimney design and a little triangle motherboard and two

⏹️ ▶️ John GPUs and like that that was an innovative design and that’s what people are afraid is happening

⏹️ ▶️ John And I I mean, I’m assuming talking to the pros that pros are not saying, please make

⏹️ ▶️ John it, you know, really weird. Like they don’t care what it looks like. They I’m hoping the influence of talking

⏹️ ▶️ John to these people will cause it to be more. We’ll push back against any unconventional

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking that Apple may bring to the table. Like, what if we gave you something like this? I hope the pros go.

⏹️ ▶️ John That might work, but I know this works. Why don’t you just make me this? And by the way, this article, unless I’m mistaken,

⏹️ ▶️ John does not say that this pro workflow team was created for this. It just tells you about the pro workflow

⏹️ ▶️ John team. I have no idea how long the pro workflow team has been in Apple. Maybe they’ve been there for a decade advising the final cut pro team

⏹️ ▶️ John and every pro Mac that they’ve ever made, right? This is just part of to soften the blow of

⏹️ ▶️ John the of the macro not being this year. We’ll tell you about a thing that previously we had no reason to tell you about

⏹️ ▶️ John because what do you care what we do internally, right? But to make you feel like we’re really paying attention, we’ll tell you about this,

⏹️ ▶️ John um, which I think is fine. Like if someone snarkily tweeted, uh, Congratulations, Apple, you’ve discovered user acceptance

⏹️ ▶️ John testing, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco snarky, but probably wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John because Apple hasn’t discovered it. Like I said, I think this has always existed. Maybe it’s been ramped up. Maybe they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John been given closer access to machines instead of just being given weird, you know, disguised boxes and saying, what do you think of this?

⏹️ ▶️ John But this this is the type of thing that you would hope any

⏹️ ▶️ John company is doing, but that The sort of the legend of Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John the face that they present to the world doesn’t include this. Like the legend of

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is, we don’t need to talk to people to know what to make. We don’t do focus

⏹️ ▶️ John groups. We don’t ask you what you want because you don’t know what you want. We’ll tell you what you want. We don’t like,

⏹️ ▶️ John we just go off to the mountain and we come down with a thing and trust me, you’ll love it, right? And that’s how we got the

⏹️ ▶️ John Touch Bar. Nah, maybe not. I think maybe that’s more of the focus group thing someone has an idea

⏹️ ▶️ John and you tell people do you think this is a good idea and everyone goes yeah that sounds like it might be a good idea but people are dummies like that like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a steve job the steve jobs school of thought of like you know don’t ask

⏹️ ▶️ John people like we are smart enough on our own to figure it out if we ask people we’ll make mediocre stuff because i mean

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s that’s true of any product focus groups are death it’s like the the you know the homer car from from the simpsons

⏹️ ▶️ John right just everyone has ideas about what they think they want but everyone is not a a product designer. It’s your

⏹️ ▶️ John job as a product designer to, you know, synthesize their desires and figure out what it is that they really want, so on and so

⏹️ ▶️ John forth. But the more a company is perceived to be allowing the customer

⏹️ ▶️ John to lead them, the more it is likely to make mediocre

⏹️ ▶️ John products and to lose sight of true innovation. It’s all innovator dilemma thing of like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John just keep talking to your best customers. They’ll continually ask for like, like we do on the show. Essentially, if you just

⏹️ ▶️ John listen to your mainframe customers, they keep telling about how they want you to make better and better mainframes and you missed the PC revolution, right? Because you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, because you’re just like, well, our all of our biggest customers say they want this and they want that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John you will never make the PC if you keep talking to your mainframe customers, you have to say, well, actually, there’s another

⏹️ ▶️ John thing we should be doing. And those customers will never tell us to do that. There’s a million business books about this, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But Apple, we don’t perceive as saying, we’re not really sure how to make a pro computer. Can we get some pros in here to tell

⏹️ ▶️ John us what do you like? Do you like this? Do Do you like that? Like it’s from a position like a weakness and we want them to just

⏹️ ▶️ John know everything automatically and just make beautiful things that everybody loved. Reality of course is neither extreme is true.

⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Jobs’ Apple still took customer feedback and like that’s always been a part of the process.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this whole pro workflow team I’m sure does have some influence, but in the end if Johnny doesn’t want it, it’s not going

⏹️ ▶️ John on there. So I think,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, this is one of the reasons you don’t talk about your process because once people outside the

⏹️ ▶️ John company start thinking about your process, it loses some of the magic,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you start worrying about, is that really the best process to do this? I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John on the pro workflow team, what if they’re not talking to me? In fact, we got some feedback about that from other people saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, they’re talking to pros in film and video and whatever industries, but they’re not talking to pros in

⏹️ ▶️ John my industry, whatever that may be, academics, R&D,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know scientific stuff I forget what the

⏹️ ▶️ John categories outside of what they have listed that are on the pro work with the

⏹️ ▶️ John info we know the pro record him does include all those that didn’t tell us everything about them but either way if you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like your views are being represented and you buy into the idea that

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s that small group of people that’s essentially dictating what this machine will look like that doesn’t feel good either

⏹️ ▶️ John because now when the machine comes out, you’d be like, oh great, that business is a great machine for video editors, but for me doing

⏹️ ▶️ John medical imaging, it sucks. They should have had medical imagers in their Pro Workflow team. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the difficulty of making any product. They’re not gonna make an entire line of Mac Pros

⏹️ ▶️ John to suit everybody’s needs. They’re gonna make one that suits most people’s needs,

⏹️ ▶️ John where most is defined as people Apple thinks will buy a Mac Pro. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at that, with the asterisk, we hope. It will suit most people’s needs, we

⏹️ ▶️ John hope. Yeah, maybe they’ll be wrong about that. maybe you know that’s again with the process like

⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t it be for all you know Apple if you made this kind of computer a whole new class of people would want to buy it and ignore

⏹️ ▶️ John the pro video people because your real market is you know like makers with their 3d printers

⏹️ ▶️ John and they need to do CAD on it I don’t I don’t know like that’s kind of Apple’s job to figure out

⏹️ ▶️ John but if you start if your starting point is a more or less conventional tower with a separate monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s really nice and that has the same capabilities and performance profiles the iMac Pro but with more

⏹️ ▶️ John capacity that’s a pretty good starting point for most people. Now they can ask for things here and there

⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t think that that Pro workflow team is going to do anything other than

⏹️ ▶️ John have minor suggestions about a very conventional design

⏹️ ▶️ John and best-case scenario that team was able to dissuade Apple very early on like last

⏹️ ▶️ John year or sometime to not make a weird octopus thing, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Say, don’t go down that path. Like, we have some sketches. I hope everyone involved

⏹️ ▶️ John would say, that might be good, it might be bad, but it’s an unknown and you already did that with a trash can, so

⏹️ ▶️ John let’s just reel this back in. Let’s start with a box.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I feel like, too, there’s different levels at which this kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco user focus group or work group is useful or needed. It makes total

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense to have people who use, say, the pro apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work with Apple on some level and have Apple ask them what they need and watch what they need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and work closely with them to tailor the pro apps to the needs of the people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who buy them. But as you go kind of further down,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess, the stack of the platforms, the operating systems, and then eventually the hardware,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it gets less and less specific. The whole appeal of personal computing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that these machines are generalists. They can be used to do anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Lots of different tasks can be done on these machines. And so the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the platforms and the OS have to be able to support anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because you never know what people are going to do. You know, you can pick a few use cases and say, let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make sure, you know, that it works well for these use cases because we’ve heard that a lot of people use it for that or something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can never accommodate everything via user testing that people are going to want these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computers and operating systems to do. So as you go down, like, it, you know, have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the team that makes Final Cut work with video editors. That makes total sense. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even that is like kind of hard to describe. Like, I guarantee you, no one on the Logic team has ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watched somebody edit a podcast in Logic. And maybe it’s a pretty light use case, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, but I’m telling you it’s never happened. But anyway, the OS and the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to be as versatile as possible. So this is why this is kind of like a like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think this has a lot to do with the Mac Pro like this this user. I think this is purely like a PR thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to cover up. They the information they wanted to communicate was don’t expect the Mac Pro this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And as John said, you know, they they gave you this pro workflows group thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as like something good to stick on top of that. And that’s nice. I don’t think they’re that related

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the design of the of a Mac any Mac even you know a lot of people been arguing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about like the definition of pro who what counts as a pro I think this is a totally useless distinction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t matter pro is marketing that’s all it is it pro just means the bigger one of the more expensive one any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other any other focusing of what this definition is is is not productive all of the computers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the lineup should be as versatile as possible the OS and the platforms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything should be as versatile as possible to accommodate any kind of work, any kind of workflow, any kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of workload. The only reason that you shouldn’t be able to do something on a MacBook Air

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you can do on a Mac Pro is if the MacBook Air doesn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware support for what you’re doing, if it doesn’t have enough RAM, or if it’s just too damn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slow, or if it doesn’t have enough Thunderbolt bandwidth. That should be the only difference between these products.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And when computers are properly design, which they have been for decades, that is the only distinction.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco For most types of applications, unless there’s like a specific GPU requirement or something like you don’t quote

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need a MacBook pro to edit video. You can edit video in a MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco air. It’ll just be slower and stuff like that. Like when you buy or if you sell computers, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to make these distinctions. You try to say, Oh, well this, you need, you need to go to this model if you need to do this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or this. If you’re only doing this, you should only be using this cheapo crappy model over here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But these distinctions are all just for sales and marketing and for the most part the only thing that matters is does it have the tech

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specs to do what you need at all and then you can argue about how fast.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco To bring in user testing groups like this to influence

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware decisions I think is questionable because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a long time to the best of our knowledge these kinds of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being brought in for hardware decisions were not necessary or weren’t happening.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we don’t, we still don’t know that they’re being used for hardware today, but assuming that they are, cause this was kind of weirdly tied to the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pro and this PR thing, they should just make the kind of computer that has the most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can possibly have in it for this role. Like for like the Mac pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a tower. There’s no limitations really on power consumption or price

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or size. size. So give it the most you can get. When you’re making a laptop, you want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have something that’s portable, presumably thin and light if you can get it there, has a good battery life. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other than that, make it as versatile as possible. This is an argument I always have with people who are like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whoa, why do you need the SD card slot? I never used mine, so I’m glad they removed it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco These are versatile general purpose machines. They should accommodate as much as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Removing anything should not be considered a feature, except wait, that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only thing that should be considered a feature of removing like everything else like these should accommodate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as much as possible. So to try to pick like a few certain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco narrow use cases, or a few certain industries or types of quote pro users, which is meaningless,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say like, we’re going to optimize it or we’re going to design it to accommodate these things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It makes like a like a spiky or peaky design instead of something that is more versatile

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can accommodate a well-rounded group of things people might want to do with these computers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The way to properly design computers is to cover as much as possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not as little as possible and this has been a design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco conflict between me and Apple for a long time. Well for recent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years especially. I wish that the products we were getting out of Apple were just more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco general purpose, more versatile. The 2013 Mac Pro went

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the in the other direction and flopped miserably. The 2013 Mac Pro is saying let’s take all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the different things people can do with the old Mac Pro Towers. So many different configurations possible for so many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different kinds of uses and priorities and budgets and everything else and then they made this little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trash can thing that was optimized for like one use case and one type of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco customer. They replaced this incredibly versatile, broad-reaching product

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with a very narrow one and it flopped. I can make many parallels

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the laptop lineup right now. I hope that they have learned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some lessons from the 2013 Mac Pro and from the negative reactions to 2016

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Pro and I hope they’re gonna start giving us more broad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco products. The iMac Pro is a pretty good start in that direction. I want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see more from the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it really depends on how they’re using these people because they don’t go into that much detail. Like I said, I didn’t even tell you when they were

⏹️ ▶️ John formed. They just said like, oh they’re right down the hall and yes they’re influencing the Mac Pro and so on and so forth. But I can think of lots of good users

⏹️ ▶️ John for these people. This gets to my point earlier about it’s Apple’s job to make a good product.

⏹️ ▶️ John The people they consult aren’t making the product aren’t dictating the product design like they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John just one input and you have to know what what input do you

⏹️ ▶️ John actually want from these people you don’t want them just to just go in there with a blank sheet of paper and say here pros what

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of computer would you like us to build and they all draw a picture of their home or car and you go great we’ll build that and then you build it and

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s terrible no one likes and you can’t figure out what you did wrong like an Apple’s not doing that I’m sure right

⏹️ ▶️ John But there is valuable feedback to be harvested from them, to your point Marco, to

⏹️ ▶️ John make a general purpose computer that doesn’t have stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John limits. So to give some examples that might sound silly, but I think is hopefully

⏹️ ▶️ John exactly the kind of feedback they’re getting from these people. For the video editor examples, I’m going to make up stuff about video editing because I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John anything about it. But say the video editors say that they never put their computers on

⏹️ ▶️ John their desk, they always have it like underneath there in like some standard cabinet or bay or something or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John right and for it to be there the cords that connect

⏹️ ▶️ John from the monitor to the computer have to be some length and they could say

⏹️ ▶️ John the last monitor you made the cords are never long enough so we have to buy extenders and extenders are flaky

⏹️ ▶️ John or the you know the bus doesn’t doesn’t support cords of that length and it’s kind of annoying

⏹️ ▶️ John and same deal with the input devices because of the distances if you just made all your cords like a foot longer

⏹️ ▶️ John they would be so much less frustrating that’s valuable feedback because it’s just saying look this

⏹️ ▶️ John is how people like to arrange their stuff it seems like a minor issue but if we don’t do this if we make

⏹️ ▶️ John our codes like our cords the normal length it’s gonna be annoying to these people in the same way the five-second

⏹️ ▶️ John long Final Cut Pro Windows is annoying like they can get around it the product is not dead on arrival

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s the thing we wouldn’t have thought of if we hadn’t if we hadn’t talked to real people who use them in

⏹️ ▶️ John a certain situation and it’s a thing we can do it’s not dictating design of the

⏹️ ▶️ John computer just make the courts a little longer I have to think that they had a similar type of

⏹️ ▶️ John reason for the ridiculously long charger cord for the the Apple watch you know the

⏹️ ▶️ John cord for that thing is like well sometimes the outlet is like behind the headboard of the bed in the middle

⏹️ ▶️ John and to reach the nightstand it has to be pretty darn long and yeah people can use an extension cord,

⏹️ ▶️ John but that’s kind of annoying. So we’re just going to include a really long cord.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ John that is exactly the kind of hardware feedback that you can get without

⏹️ ▶️ John saying, oh, whatever hardware you need for your three specific specialties, we’re just going to build

⏹️ ▶️ John something that does that and then leave someone out in the cold who wants to do like MRI imaging. It’s like, well, I don’t want what any of those people want.

⏹️ ▶️ John I want something else entirely. So they should be making a general purpose flexible computer, but if they can,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, to the, the goal of accommodating more use cases is you have to talk to

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of people. These people want a longer cord, these people don’t want any lights in the front, or you have to be able

⏹️ ▶️ John to disable the lights. Like stuff like that, that you can just do, that it, when you look at the whole computer,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, why are the cords so long, and who cares about turning off the lights? I certainly don’t care about turning off the lights. And why does

⏹️ ▶️ John it have, like, slots in front and in back? Or why are they on the side instead of over

⏹️ ▶️ John here? It’s like you shrug your shoulders. They will whatever it’s fine for me, but to make a machine that accommodates

⏹️ ▶️ John the most possible use cases That’s worthwhile feedback on a hardware level You

⏹️ ▶️ John still you don’t want it to be the Homer and have everything that everybody wants because it stops being coherent at some point

⏹️ ▶️ John but that kind of feedback and the feedback I mentioned before of like please don’t make something

⏹️ ▶️ John that like is is cooled by gel and magnetically levitates

⏹️ ▶️ John and is a bunch of boxes that snap together with magnets. Like we don’t, nobody wants

⏹️ ▶️ John that. Like I know you think it’s cool, but I can say we as professionals

⏹️ ▶️ John talk to everybody. Talk to the video editors, talk to the audio editors, talk to the scientific people. Nobody wants that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the people who think it’s cool, they’re not the ones buying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Mac Pro. Exactly. They’re the ones who are gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco complain that they’re too

⏹️ ▶️ John expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so, so I think, you know, that feedback is, is good to get sent on the right path.

⏹️ ▶️ John But after that, it’s just a matter of finding out all the little, uh, little things that are easy for

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple to do that can go a long way that, that, I mean, and that’s perfect for Apple to brag about like in their presentations.

⏹️ ▶️ John And we learned that, again, I’m making up all this stuff cause I don’t use them as context. It was like, and we learned that in certain studios,

⏹️ ▶️ John people don’t like to have lights. So if you want to turn off all the lights in your, on your thing, you turn them off and the audience would applaud if

⏹️ ▶️ John they were if they also knew about this whole light thing right that’s that’s the type of feedback I hope they’re getting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that it? For now. I I I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what to do. Don’t worry there’ll be more.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t worry.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John well they didn’t actually release that much new information so all we can do is speculate.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh and I guess related to this I don’t know how I got on this topic but

⏹️ ▶️ John I was wandering YouTube looking at fancy PC towers

⏹️ ▶️ John and there are some cool ones. Because I you know this is sort of I don’t know like

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro methadone right I’m just I can’t I don’t have any news about a Mac Pro so I can just

⏹️ ▶️ John go look at other things and say if the Mac Pro was like this it would be neat like I saw on recently that was

⏹️ ▶️ John a tower like a mini tower PC with no fans like passively cooled

⏹️ ▶️ John but with reasonably modern hardware in it like no fans that is a certain appeal doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John it right and you know it obviously outperforms any Mac ever sold right because it’s a PC

⏹️ ▶️ John you know with it with it with the real video card and everything it’s not the fastest video card you can get in a PC

⏹️ ▶️ John but it was fast I was like no fans really it wasn’t even that big it didn’t even get

⏹️ ▶️ John that hot I was like wow if Apple and this by the way Apple don’t do this none of your pros are

⏹️ ▶️ John asking for no fans right but if if this was like an avenue of weirdness

⏹️ ▶️ John that they made like instead of making the trash can they instead decided uh you know steve job was still alive

⏹️ ▶️ John this is type of thing i can imagine him getting a b in his butt about and saying let’s try to make it with no fans if

⏹️ ▶️ John like but steve nobody wants that i said no fans

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like he essentially did it with the original macintosh

⏹️ ▶️ John the original macintosh by the way had no fans in it right and like that’s more difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John and it got a little bit too hot inside there and they They eventually put fans in the Macs. Eventually they were like,

⏹️ ▶️ John Steve, we kinda really need to put, I was like, fine, all right, fine, put fans in. Fine, make the RAM a secretly expandable

⏹️ ▶️ John to five, 12 kilobytes. I don’t think you’re ever gonna need it, but anyway, sometimes it’s not great to listen to Steve Jobs. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if they made a Mac Pro type thing where the design goal was for

⏹️ ▶️ John no good reason to make it have no fans, I think they could still make a good one.

⏹️ ▶️ John It would be stupid, it would be less flexible than having fans, but put it this way, it would be better than trash can. you

⏹️ ▶️ John can make actually a pretty good conventional tower looking fanless thing that has

⏹️ ▶️ John much more flexibility than the trash can. Which is more of a condemnation than a trash can and an endorsement for something that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple could do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but to do it, it would have to be really big and really ugly, things that Apple would never do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not that big! I’ll send you a YouTube link. It’s smaller than a regular, it’s way smaller than my cheese grater.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s pretty amazing. The amazing things you can do if you apply large amounts of metal and large amounts of surface area.

Why get a Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So tell me, this is going to come across really snarky and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t mean it to, but I do the same sort of thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco does for a living. And if you exclude gaming, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do the same sort of thing that John does for a living. I can do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my job on a Mac book, on a 15 inch MacBook pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on an iMac. And I have done and will continue to do my job on any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of those things. There is no part of me that feels like I need or even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really want a Mac Pro because presumably if the iMac Pro is something like five

⏹️ ▶️ Casey grand, the Mac Pro is probably going to be one and a half that twice that three times

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I, I don’t really understand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey why someone who writes code, the kind of code that the three of us right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway. Why does one need a Mac Pro unless you want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it to last 40 years? And for Marco, you go through computers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as quickly as you go through underwear, so that’s not a concern for you. And I’ll give you a cop-out,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I can’t argue with, and it’s that I am the most impatient human alive and damn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, I will wait as little time as possible for anything to happen on my computer. And that is, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey personally think it’s worth five or ten or whatever grand to be that impatient.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you know, if you do, that’s fine. That’s your math. That’s your business. That’s fine. But do you know what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean? It seems kind of silly. Why does any of the three of us need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a Mac Pro? Why do you need a fancy BMW to drive yourself to work? You could take a moped

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or you could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey walk. Walk would be a stretch. A moped would probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey end up with me dead. The right answer you’re looking for. The right answer you’re looking for is with a Chevy Volt.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like the cheapest, you know, you could get by with like, you know, like the little like, you know, the cheap little two-door,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, econobox. Like, why do you have a nice car? Why, you know, why do you have a car that is fast?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As opposed to, like, you can still, you were driving the same places,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Like, this car analogy definitely has some legs.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It has

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey no legs, it has wheels.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco But I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John looking at an article right now from 2013 that has the picture of a beautiful

⏹️ ▶️ John matte finish LFA at the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey top of it. Oh, here we go. I know exactly what you’re talking

⏹️ ▶️ John about.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Case

⏹️ ▶️ John for a true Mac Pro successor. This is exactly the reason. Because we’re car guys. That’s why.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That’s why. That’s the answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but I don’t buy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that, though. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy that. Well, I mean, it isn’t a perfect analogy because there are certain capabilities that higher

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end computers offer you that aren’t necessarily always the case or always available on lower

⏹️ ▶️ John ones. Yeah, it’s even more justifiable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John than the car thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. But it’s, you know, it’s almost, it’s kind of like saying, like, you know, why, like, why get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pickup truck if you don’t usually haul stuff, you know? But some people just like pickup trucks a lot, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re, and that’s, you know, they get pleasure out of that, and fine, like, who cares, right? And maybe sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do occasionally have to haul stuff, and it wouldn’t have fit in their civic. Like, buying more than you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco technically need is something to consider if you’re, you know, outfitting a business with 10,000

⏹️ ▶️ Marco PCs. When you’re an individual who’s a computer enthusiast and you have a little bit of extra money

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can buy yourself a really nice computer, there’s nothing wrong with buying more computer than you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need. Yes, we do the same job in a lot of ways. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the way, development is a very big and diverse field that many people have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many different needs. And as I was spouting off on Twitter earlier about, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the the true developer computer is the MacBook Pro. Like the MacBook Pro is by far the more commonly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used computer for developers than the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is much more commonly used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by non-developers for things like video farms and stuff like that. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really not frequently used by software developers in my knowledge and experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The MacBook Pro really is that. But I could do my job on a MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have done my job on a MacBook Pro. I spent years doing my job on MacBook Pros. It’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m happier and I think I’m more productive and at least certain things are much faster using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my cool new iMac Pro. Before this I used an iMac, which is basically a MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s stationary. That was also really great for years and that was good enough, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can get a better one and I really, you know, in the same way that you really value having a nice, fast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco car, I really get a lot of pleasure of having a nice fast Mac to do my work on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We don’t need any of these things in most senses. We get them because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some people really do need the extra horsepower where if I was actually encoding video all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco day and my encodes could be like four times faster than they could on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a MacBook Pro or on a regular iMac, then yeah, I think I could justifiably say this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is worth it to my job because it’s saving a vast amount of time throughout the day.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco For me, the gain isn’t that big between this and something a little more pedestrian, but there is still a gain.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like every time I build and run in Xcode, like I’m doing this a lot throughout the day and it is faster

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on this than it was on my old iMac. Not by hours faster. It’s not hours faster, but it’s seconds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco faster and I do it. I do it a lot, so it’s better. this computer is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco able to do things, basically anything I ask it to do, in near silence.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have yet to hear the fans spin up. I was maxing out all 10 cores the other day, importing a big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Lightroom import, and I didn’t hear the fans at all the entire time. I’ve encoded video, I’ve encoded

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 4K video, didn’t hear the fans at all. It’s wonderful. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco none of us, or well, few of us, actually quote need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these machines. But that’s not to say there’s not a market for them. Just like nobody needs a car

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can go zero to 60 in 2.5 seconds. But there’s a whole lot of people who would sure like one.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would go even further to further away from trying to justify it. Although there are definitely justifications,

⏹️ ▶️ John basically the same justifications as anybody who uses a tool to do a job like Parker was saying, you could edit video on a MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John Air, but you’re going to be miserable compared to if you had a bigger, faster computer if you do it for the living. So anytime

⏹️ ▶️ John you do anything for a living you want like the best tools for it even if it’s not a straight time as money thing. So there is that justification

⏹️ ▶️ John but I think the more important thing and the pitch I was trying to make in this old article from before they

⏹️ ▶️ John introduced the trash can was that it’s important to the company

⏹️ ▶️ John to reach for this particular star. You know for to try

⏹️ ▶️ John to make the biggest, best, fastest, most powerful

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. they’re doing that with the phone every year they try

⏹️ ▶️ John to make the best most powerful phone like the iPhone 10

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s not kind of like we think this is a pretty good phone like it’s kind of fast like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the best fastest coolest thing they know how to make with all the best specs it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John better than everything you know they’re always reaching for the stars there and that’s a consumer product but for the pro stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s you know the helicar analogy right you’re not gonna make a lot of money from it you’re not gonna sell a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John them most people don’t need one nobody needs one but

⏹️ ▶️ John having it exist not even buying it like because I’m into cars I buy Honda Accords right

⏹️ ▶️ John but just people knowing that it exists that that these

⏹️ ▶️ John cars are out there and that this is the company that makes them raises the prestige of that company and

⏹️ ▶️ John is is interesting from a sort of human achievement perspective. Yes, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not the same as the space race, but it’s similar. Like, someone is out there, you know, Ferrari’s

⏹️ ▶️ John out there making Ferraris, even if I never buy one. Certainly I don’t need one. And even if I never buy one,

⏹️ ▶️ John I, you know, spend hours reading about them in magazines and looking at them and get excited when I see one.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it changes my opinion of what cars can be. and you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it gives me a different view of Ferrari than if they just made SUVs and

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, I think should always continue to push up against this envelope

⏹️ ▶️ John regardless of how many people buy it. Just because for the same reason I use the Viper and then the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John was it was a direct quote from a magazine I’ve been reading where the, you know, the car guys wanted to make the Viper because it’s, it’s cool

⏹️ ▶️ John essentially and they’re into cars and the people who deal with the money, like why would you ever make that? It’s a terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John idea. It’s not going to make you money and it’s stupid and no one’s going to buy one.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s that’s bad decision making. So I get your question case was why

⏹️ ▶️ John do you want to get a Mac Pro? But I would take it even farther back and say, why do you care if a Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John exists if you’re not going to buy one? And I do. I care that for our existing, I’m never going to get one. And I care

⏹️ ▶️ John that the Mac Pro exists even if I wasn’t going to buy one. But I totally I am. Probably. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I want Apple to be reaching for the stars, pushing the

⏹️ ▶️ John limits, you know, going farther and faster than they’ve ever gone before. And I want them to

⏹️ ▶️ John keep pushing that because I think that an Apple that does that is an

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple that makes better products overall.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t debate that Apple needs to reach for this. just, again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you, neither of you has to answer to me and, you know, I’m not the boss of you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you can do it just because dammit, I want to. And that’s a perfectly acceptable reason.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I look at my, what is it like two-year-old iMac right now? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I write code on this thing, like the screen is beautiful with the exception of a little bit of burn-in,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the screen is beautiful. It still two years on feels crazy fast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like I don’t feel like I’m waiting for more than a moment for anything when it comes to development and obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m doing trans codes or something like that, that’s a different discussion. Yeah. Occasionally the fans spin up, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m, I’m okay with that. I know that makes me a monster, but I’m okay with hearing a fan from time to time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, and, and I look at the iMac pro and then I look at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Mac pro and I feel like there are on paper anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey deeply diminishing returns for both. Like I, to me, it’s like, yeah, okay. If you’re going to use the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey car analogy, like, yes, I spent. A bit more to have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nicer experience when I drive two miles to and from work each day, a hundred percent. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on, on the surface, it’s not really that different from what, what either of you guys are talking about. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel like what we’re, what a more apt analogy is like, well, why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did you get the regular Ferrari instead of the hyper lightweight Ferrari,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, like, or it’s such diminishing returns. Why even bother? Or,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or maybe a more apt analogy would be, you know, a Hellcat will get you somewhere just as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quick as a Ferrari will.

⏹️ ▶️ John As long as there are no turns.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey As long as there are no turns. But I mean, I guess this analogy is falling apart as well. It’s just, it seems like it’s, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way more money to get you. Not that much more speed.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s true of your BMW too, over my Accord.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Over your Accord it’s considerably more speed, over brand new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Accords…

⏹️ ▶️ John No it’s not! Not proportional to the money! It’s always diminishing returns when you get it to the top. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John always.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, if you’re doing parallel tasks, it actually is that much more speed.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, don’t go back to the practical justifications. I want the total… I think a totally impractical

⏹️ ▶️ John justification alone would be worth it, but there are in fact actual practical justifications for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. It just, it’s, it’s, it’s again, like you don’t have to answer me and I’ll let it go. It’s just, it’s really hard for me to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey understand why any human who lives in Xcode needs a Mac pro like I can see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey final cut. I could see Lightroom, the Marco you brought up Lightroom earlier. I can, I can make, I can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey make a pretty good argument that Lightroom could justify a Mac pro, but for someone who lives and breathes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Xcode or even, even more like, you know, 90 year old programming languages like Pearl.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t get why one would want a Mac pro. and I’ll let it go. It’s just, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco weird to- Wait, don’t you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco program in Swift? Yeah. You should be dying for a Mac Pro. It’s not that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s not that

⏹️ ▶️ John bad. I mean, the gaming angle that you mentioned before, though, actually is one of the more relevant, practical ones, because

⏹️ ▶️ John if

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you really want a Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you really want a Mac, like, they force you to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John this gigantic, incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey expensive thing. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just to get the good GPU. I mean, the iMac Pro is a good GPU, but presumably this one will have a better one. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so, if you really are stuck on a Mac, and you really want to play games on it, which, you know, people say, why would

⏹️ ▶️ John you even do that? Why not just get a gaming PC, blah, blah, blah. Like it’s, you know, it’s, we

⏹️ ▶️ John are, we are oddballs who understand that. We have to explain, um,

⏹️ ▶️ John the practical reasons why people want them. Like that’s what all those pros are doing. Like if you do it for a living and it will

⏹️ ▶️ John make whatever you’re doing twice as fast or twice as reliable at the same speed, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John then that’s, that’s the reason to get them. It’s the reason professionals buy a professional stuff period

⏹️ ▶️ John like snap-on tools. Why do they cost so much more than craftsmen? Are they that much better? No, they’re not that much better But

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re better and if you all you do all day is turn a wrench get a good one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but on top of that they also had a ridiculous warranty. Did they not?

⏹️ ▶️ John Craftsman used to be guaranteed for life

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey guaranteed forever before like Sears went out of business or whatever. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true I don’t know. I’ll let it go. But it’s it’s it’s it’s an odd thing to me again I am a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hundred and fifty percent on board with Apple pursuing this I Completely agree with you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and again gaming is a pretty good reason because I friggin want to leave me alone Casey is a good reason which is what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m mostly hearing light room is a good reason But if you’re just living in Xcode or terminal or Visual Studio

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Code or what have you it seems a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John little weird

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, this is my home computer though. I’m not getting it for work You realize like I would

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey never be able to just try to work

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco why this you

⏹️ ▶️ John can be a Mac Pro I can’t even just so I work for them to get me an iMac for crying out loud. It’s gonna be stupid laptop, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey But for home it’s totally,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s a hobby computer. Like it’s the same, you know, if you had a taxi business, you’re like, how can you justify a BMW

⏹️ ▶️ John for your taxi? It’s like, don’t, it’s going to break down and cost you too much money. Like get a Toyota for your taxi. But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for your home

⏹️ ▶️ John car, I’m gonna BMW because I like cars.

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#askatp: Marco’s coffee gear

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s do some Ask ATP. We have a twofer with regard to evil addicting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey juice. Bozy Moncrief writes, hey Marco, what’s your go-to hand grinder for those of us

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who don’t want your fancy powered instant coffee tubes for travel?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hand grinding, hmm. I’ve had two, both Herio,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first like the skinny one, I forget what it’s called, and then I later got the kind of stubbier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one which is called the Skurton. I cannot recommend either of them really.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you insist on hand grinding coffee, the Herio Skurton is the much better one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The little skinnier one, it was useless. It was very hard to get anything out of it. The Skurton

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is bulkier but substantially faster. The problem is there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a reason why coffee grinders are all electric. Because you need to do a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of hand cranking to really get a meaningful amount of coffee. Especially if you’re doing something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that needs a finer grind like an AeroPress. This is one of the many reasons

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why I decided after only like one or two tries that travel coffee

⏹️ ▶️ Marco setups are not for me. So the only thing I can say is, please try

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not to do this at all. But if you’re going to do it, the Herry O. Skurgeon is the one to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And additionally, Doggo Boy would like to know, what’s your coffee setup like? I just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey found out that you like coffee. How do you just find out that Marko likes coffee? His blood

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco coffee at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, I just found out you like coffee and would like to know more about your setup.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, all right. So basically, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a crazy coffee enthusiast. If you think I care a lot about MacBook keyboards,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John seen me try to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make or brew coffee. I’m a home roaster. I roast my own coffee on a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hot top roaster. I get the unroasted beans from Sweet Maria’s.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I tend to get Kenya beans the vast majority of the time. It’s my favorite bean. Sweet Maria’s is the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco resource I’ve ever seen for not only getting unroasted beans, getting roasters and learning how to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use them. So I highly suggest They’ve been doing this for a very long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time and they’ve been wonderful. And if you’re going to start out on a coffee roaster, you can start with the cheap Air Popper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or the Baymore 1300, I think, or 1600. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the one I had first. It’s decent. The hot top is about three times the price,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but is three times better. So it’s up to you how you want to deal with that but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coffee home roasting is something that nobody should really do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I do it because I care a lot about things that most people don’t care a lot about and I’m very happy with that and I’m content

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with that so that being said when I’m out I mentioned last time I’ve been recently trying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these these cool new sudden coffee instant coffee things like when I’m traveling or on an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco airplane or something it’s sudden coffee is surprisingly good I also in the meantime have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been recommended two other ones. Voila! spelled like Viola, you know Voila! Coffee

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Swiftcup coffee. Both of which are also like kind of pricey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-end instant coffee packets. Both of them are good. Swiftcup I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might be my favorite of all three so far. I have to try a little bit more of it but I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very impressed by the Swiftcup flavor. But Sudden Coffee is actually more practical because you can use the tube

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a stirrer, which is nice. Anyway, at home, when I’m using my home roasted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco beans, I grind them with a Barraza Virtuoso, and I put

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them in an AeroPress, and I use a fairly imprecise inverted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AeroPress method. And I use a electric kettle to pour hot water into it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s about it, that’s my coffee setup. I press the coffee into a mug,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then I drink it. Usually I’m making coffee for me and Tiff at the same time, so I use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two Aero presses in parallel, one in each hand, and it’s totally fine. I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tried pretty much every way I know of to brew

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coffee. I’ve tried French presses, drip pots, good drip pots, bad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco drip pots. I have tried the butter, that’s terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have tried the, what’s the big expensive, oh the Clover machine. I’ve tried the Clover machine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both at a real coffee shop and then later at Starbucks. I’ve tried lots of different brewers. I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tried a vacuum brewer. I have tried so many different ways to brew coffee. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what it comes down to is the best way to brew one cup of coffee or two if you’re willing to operate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two in parallel is the AeroPress. The best way to brew more than that is the Hario V60

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pour over cone into whatever vessel you feel like. That’s it.

#askatp: Which TiVo?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Bryce Minty would like to know you know I’m finally getting around to replacing that awful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey file set-top box at my house Which Tevo are you using John and not sure if the $750 for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a new bolt in lifetime service is really worth it

⏹️ ▶️ John Kind of like Apple’s laptops Tevo line is not at a great place right now

⏹️ ▶️ John All of their newest machines are using this incredibly stupid bent

⏹️ ▶️ John box design Like it looks like a regular set-top box would imagine you bent it like not

⏹️ ▶️ John even in the middle so it makes this kind of like weird inverted V shape

⏹️ ▶️ John the bend is stupid and you can’t stack stuff on top of it but worse than the bend much worse is the fact

⏹️ ▶️ John that the thing is very small and so they have a you

⏹️ ▶️ John know low diameter fan in it that has to spin very fast and makes a very annoying high-pitched noise so

⏹️ ▶️ John all of the bent box Tivos are noisier than the the much larger

⏹️ ▶️ John flat box Tivo’s that they replaced. Which is a shame because the top

⏹️ ▶️ John end Tivo, the top end bent box Tivo, I have one that, well actually it’s not a top end anymore now that I have that box

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, but I think it’s basically the same except for voice control. They are

⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise very good. They are fast, they’re small,

⏹️ ▶️ John the interface has not been entirely ruined by this new interface that they’re trying to roll out. I still haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ John gotten the new interface, It looks pretty gross, but the old one is good. Like, it is a good product, it is

⏹️ ▶️ John a good TiVo, except for the fact that the box is bent and it makes lots of noise. If you can find

⏹️ ▶️ John a Romeo Pro, which I also have one of, it is not quite

⏹️ ▶️ John as fancy as the latest bent box ones, but it’s still plenty fast. It is way bigger,

⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculously bigger, which is kind of a shame, but it is quieter. So there is no

⏹️ ▶️ John perfect TiVo to get. I would say that if you have like an entertainment center someplace where you’re not going

⏹️ ▶️ John to hear the fan or you don’t care about fan noises or whatever, then the stupid vent box

⏹️ ▶️ John top-of-the-line T-Bows are still pretty good T-Bows. But if you care about the noise or want to save some money

⏹️ ▶️ John look into a Romeo Pro if you can find one because they are much more conventional and straightforward

⏹️ ▶️ John and flat and slightly quieter.

#askatp: Clipboard managers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Excellent. And finally, KG writes, what kind of clipboard management apps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are you using, if any, on your Macs? I use Alfred as my both

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app launcher as well as, you know, kind of do everything machine and it includes some very basic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey clipboard, like history and management and stuff like that. That has been great.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is exactly what I want and nothing more. And that has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey worked really well for me. I did beta test Pastebot, which is by the same folks that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do Tweetbot and NetBot RIP. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was really good, but more powerful than what I personally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted. It can do things like, you know, filter or like, you know, modify what you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey copied. And maybe if I spent the time, I would end up deciding, oh, I actually really do like this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey For my needs, it was overkill for what I’m looking for from it. Marco, do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have any sort of clipboard management set up?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I actually really, really love clipboard management. I came

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fairly late to it. I think I was most of the way through my job at Tumblr before I started

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using Clipboard Manager and I wish I had done it earlier once I got into it because, you know, programming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just general computer use, there is a lot of opportunities to stack up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a couple things in the clipboard and then paste them down somewhere. It’s the kind of thing, having multiple clipboards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or multiple levels to a stacked clipboard is really, really nice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in so many types of work on computers. It’s one of the biggest things that I think, it’s kind of a shame

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that iOS not only doesn’t have it but probably never will have it. When you’re working on iOS, it’s one of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the biggest things I miss. I’ve tried a lot of them. I think I’ve tried almost all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them. I started out on one called Jump Cut, which was just a clipboard manager. It was open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco source back forever ago. I don’t know where it is now. And then I later moved

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on to LaunchBar. And I’ve also, back in the day, I used Quicksilver as my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fast launcher. Then for a while, I just did Spotlight as the launcher, as an almost fast launcher.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then LaunchBar kind of combines everything into one app for me. It is a super fast launcher and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also my favorite clipboard manager. And I know like Alfred

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there’s a bunch of other ones out there now, I’m sure they’re all great, just LaunchBar happens to be the one that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco meshed best with me and the way I like it to work and the way I like it to look and behave

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything else. So I use LaunchBar for that. And kind of like what you said, Casey, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a heavy but shallow user of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I use it constantly, I heavily use, I use the crap out of it. but I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only scrape the surface of the available features. I literally only use it to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch apps, find emoji to paste into things, which is a fairly recent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, and use multiple clipboards, that’s it. I don’t do anything where you can hit a different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco key and send it to another workflow, or send it to a script, or capitalize it in this way. I don’t do any of that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s only an app launcher and a clipboard manager for me. And that’s, whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it costs, I think it’s like 40 or 50 bucks, whatever it costs, it’s totally worth it just for that because it is such

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an incredible part of my workflow doing pretty much everything because of that clipboard manager.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s so good. That being said, if you don’t wanna spend that much, there are alternatives, as both of us said.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I highly suggest, whatever clipboard manager you end up with,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you don’t use one, try one. If you do anything on a Mac ever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco try a clipboard manager. Because once you get into the habit, It’s like, you know, so, I mean, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much of modern work is copying and pasting stuff, like from one place to another. And it’s so nice to be able to like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco copy three things and then go to the other app and paste one, paste two, paste

⏹️ ▶️ Marco three. Like to have, to not have to go back and forth so much, it’s such a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco revolution in how you use your clipboard. You will wonder how anything ever doesn’t use, like how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyone gets around not using a clipboard. It’s almost as big of a change as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having a clipboard versus not having a clipboard. Like the very first time you were, like when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we were all learning how to use computers, that first time you discovered the clipboard that you could copy and paste

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things, like it’s almost that big of a deal once you can have like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little history or a stack.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John?

⏹️ ▶️ John So I used Jumpcut for years because I just wanted basic functionality and now I use

⏹️ ▶️ John Pastebot and I don’t use much of the fancy functionality but like Jumpcut was fine

⏹️ ▶️ John but pastebot just has a little bit more polished, you know, like all the bot things. It’s just nicer. So I gladly

⏹️ ▶️ John paid for it to have a polished and hopefully more well-supported thing of this. Marco covered most of the

⏹️ ▶️ John benefits of a clipboard manager. Let me tell you about a couple of the dangers.

⏹️ ▶️ John One danger, as Marco pointed out, is that it will change your mental model of how computers work.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’ve done this a couple of times where I’ve been on someone else’s computer. Even just like on my wife’s computer or

⏹️ ▶️ John in one of my kids’ accounts they don’t run a clipboard manager, like it’s the same computer, but they don’t have they don’t run paste

⏹️ ▶️ John spot or whatever. And I will be doing stuff in the computer.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I will not I will realize way too late that I just thought I was queuing up three things in the clipboard.

⏹️ ▶️ John And in reality, I was just overriding the clipboard. And the all

⏹️ ▶️ John the things except for the most recent one don’t exist anywhere else. Like I will I will like

⏹️ ▶️ John copy something out of a document, close the document without saving it, go to another document, copy something out, close it without saving

⏹️ ▶️ John it and like and then, you know, copy another thing and then go to the destination expecting to paste in all three of those things. And guess what?

⏹️ ▶️ John Two of them are gone, like gone, gone, like as in data loss, gone as in I didn’t write them down anywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re gone. Why? Because my mental model is that copy and paste is like a queue and it’s not,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just one place. And that makes me sad. The other thing is some of these clipboard managers have a way to synchronize

⏹️ ▶️ John your clippings either like through iCloud or across other machines or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And applications also have a way to blacklist something. And those two features should

⏹️ ▶️ John make a tickle in your mind. Because one of the things that I think they put in a blacklist by default is like key chain access

⏹️ ▶️ John or one password. Yeah, if you copy and paste the password and have any

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of cloud synchronization on and don’t have that app blacklisted, guess what you just spread your unencrypted password

⏹️ ▶️ John to are possibly encrypted. Either way, you just spread your password to cloud storage and possibly to other computers that you may

⏹️ ▶️ John or may not control. So be careful with your clipboard manager, they

⏹️ ▶️ John the good ones have tools for you to not have that happen. You have to use those tools, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of the reason I can imagine why Apple doesn’t build this in, right? Like, why doesn’t Apple just build in multiple clipboards, they put

⏹️ ▶️ John a clock in the menu bar after all, that’s a pretty old reference there. But there. They’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John done so many things since then, there are dangers to this. And I’m not sure which is the worst the the

⏹️ ▶️ John possible security danger or the fact that you get so used to it that trying to use a computer without it

⏹️ ▶️ John the computer feels broken.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, those are bad reasons.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Like I’m saying, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not saying that’s the reason you shouldn’t use it. Like I will I will use it forever. Like I have to use it like I can’t go

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco back. Yeah, right.

⏹️ ▶️ John But But just keep in mind that once you get on board this train, which you should get on board it’s good. Keep

⏹️ ▶️ John those other things in mind when you’re using a foreign computer. Keep in mind that the clipboard is no longer

⏹️ ▶️ John a cue and just disable the synchronization thing if you don’t want to use it like that’s the easiest solution to that. Like do you really care

⏹️ ▶️ John that your clipboard is synchronized across whatever if you don’t just turn that stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off. I have never used any kind of syncing like that. I like that. That to me sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a recipe for pain.

⏹️ ▶️ John So does that with with iOS and the Mac now right the share

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco clipboard.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco works like 70% of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John time. Yeah I know that’s why you don’t have to

⏹️ ▶️ John worry about an apple because they’re sinking never actually works your password won’t actually sink

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco across

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or you hit paste on the other device and it just blocks for like eight seconds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey well it tries to figure out what the heck

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it should be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pasting delightful between that and drag-and-drop it’s like man everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on iOS is made slower by progress

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah oh and another thing to configure is that most of these clipboard history apps have a way for you to

⏹️ ▶️ John limit the size of things if you like me occasionally find yourself copying and pasting 500 megabytes

⏹️ ▶️ John of text from your awesome text editor. You don’t really don’t want your clipboard

⏹️ ▶️ John manager to be like, oh, let me hold on to that 500 megs for you. That’s so that most of them have a threshold

⏹️ ▶️ John to say, look, if it’s bigger than 50 megs, just let that one just let that one slide. I’m not going to be I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want to paste that an hour from now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. Thanks to our sponsors this week. Betterment, HelloFresh and Molecule. and we’ll see ya.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See you next week!

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them at

⏹️ ▶️ John C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, Auntie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Harmon,

⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, tech podcasts so

⏹️ ▶️ John long

Post-show: John watches YouTube

⏹️ ▶️ John I was I mean I’ve been more things I’ve been looking at in YouTube. I’m looking at YouTube videos

⏹️ ▶️ John What I find some video that was talking about straight cut gears and race transmissions and why they’re better

⏹️ ▶️ John I was so frustrated at the video not explaining to me Why they’re adequately explain to you why they’re better that I was just like googling

⏹️ ▶️ John for like race transmission straight cut gears on YouTube I’m like, what does YouTube think of what?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how I ended up here, but then I ended up in on this rat hole of like explainer explainer, technology

⏹️ ▶️ John explainer videos. And I found a lot of them very frustrating. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John popular videos that are very poor quality. Like you start going into the dark

⏹️ ▶️ John corner of YouTube is the completely incorrect, bogus, how planes fly videos.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right? It’s kind of like I feel like, you know, the conspiracy theories about how the earth is flat and stuff and like kids are

⏹️ ▶️ John finding them like kids don’t watch this video. That’s not how planes fly. And there are

⏹️ ▶️ John videos out there explaining why all the other videos telling you how planes fly are wrong, but they’re not as high in the search

⏹️ ▶️ John results as the bogus one. It’s very upsetting. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s both a fun corner of YouTube, technology explainer videos, but also just filled with

⏹️ ▶️ John garbage. Really bad low-res computer animations that they probably didn’t make, with a

⏹️ ▶️ John computer voice talking over it. Like the old Fred voice, not like Siri, but like the old Fred

⏹️ ▶️ John voice talking over it. They couldn’t even get a human, I guess these might be machine generated, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or from, like, yeah, I don’t understand it, I don’t understand who’s watching them, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they seem to have like, they come up high in the search results. I wish I could vote them

⏹️ ▶️ John down and say, hide this and never let another human see it, because it’s bad. But there are good ones too. Remember, the classic

⏹️ ▶️ John good one is like, I think we’ve all seen this, the one from the 50s or 60s,

⏹️ ▶️ John explaining how a transmission works. Or that was, I forget what it was explaining. was like from GM or something

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s like that black and white it’s kind of like film strip from school and in the 60s

⏹️ ▶️ John but it was the first thing that I ever saw that explained to me how

⏹️ ▶️ John like a traditional gear differential works despite having like assembled and used many

⏹️ ▶️ John of them on a remote control cars it never quite clicked in my brain it’s like yeah but how did this work and this one

⏹️ ▶️ John did it from like first principles with like Tinker toys I’m like oh now I get it and it finally

⏹️ ▶️ John all came together like this is how every engineering explainer but I gotta go find that one.