Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

243: Knew About the Dollar Signs

Window layouts, menu bars, clean installs, notification mysteries, and Apple TV gaming.

Episode Description:

Sponsored by:

  • Audible: Get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial.
  • Squarespace: Make your next move. Use code ATP for 10% off your first order.
  • Fracture: Photos printed in vivid color directly on glass. Get 10% off your first order.

MP3 Header

Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Intro: Clean installs
  2. Follow-up: Google Pixel
  3. Follow-up: Cellular fees 🖼️
  4. Tiled Windows of Casey County 🖼️
  5. Menu$$$bar$ of Casey County 🖼️
  6. Follow-up: Cellular fees 🖼️
  7. Sponsor: Fracture
  8. Home-assistant ecosystems
  9. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  10. High Sierra update
  11. #askatp: Safari vs. Chrome 🖼️
  12. #askatp: New Accord 🖼️
  13. #askatp: Terminals and shells 🖼️
  14. Sponsor: Audible
  15. Phone-to-watch notifications
  16. Twitterrific for Mac
  17. Apple TV gaming
  18. Ending theme
  19. Post-show: Neutral

Intro: Clean installs

⏹️ ▶️ John Did you try that a translucent menu bar thing by the way that I pasted

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey no because I guess you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to don’t you have To like kill system UI server to make it take effect and something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, please don’t do that while podcasting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over the years I’ve come to the conclusion and I think I first heard this from Dan Benjamin and I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey For me he was right about this that it is it is a happier experience for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you whoever you is if you customize or if you insist on as few customizations

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to vanilla Mac OS or iOS as possible. Obviously every one of us, myself included,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has plenty of customizations that you consider critical to me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on a new installation of Mac OS and same with iOS. But I try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to choose wisely and I try to choose things that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey usually just amount to installing like an app or something like that. And this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not I mean, it’s a default, right? Like, I understand what it is, it’s not hard to do. It’s something I’m perfectly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey capable of doing. But the fact that I didn’t even notice that the darn menu bar was translucent until you said something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey means you know what, it’s probably just not worth it to worry about it. And I’m okay with that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I disagree with that philosophy. I understand it. Like maybe if you’re hoteling in a world where you have to use other people’s generic

⏹️ ▶️ John computers all the time that you don’t want to customize, but I’m, I’m in the opposite camp, I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John going to to live with some minor annoyance for years and years, just because like, Oh, if I happen to find myself a stranger’s computer, that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John default setup, I’ll be able to do it. And if I get a new computer, I’ll just be able to use that other box. So that’s not true because migration system

⏹️ ▶️ John has been great for so many years. People always ask me, do you do a clean install or do you upgrade install?

⏹️ ▶️ John I upgrade install. I’ve been upgrading install forever. And Apple’s upgrading stalls have historically

⏹️ ▶️ John both on classic Mac iOS and on iOS 10 and Mac iOS or the helix call now have

⏹️ ▶️ John been really good about keeping all crap. And yes, that’s why I have like, resource fork

⏹️ ▶️ John based preference files sitting in my library folder on my Mac. But it just keeps your settings like I

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s why you know, if I ever do set up a new Mac, I’m faced with like, well, how did I set this

⏹️ ▶️ John up? Because it’s a setting that I changed, I ran a default right command, like in Panther,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right? And it’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco still

⏹️ ▶️ John carrying over, right? Because the plist file is there. And it’s just, that’s what I want it like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John such a you get such bang for your buck out of it if you just keep doing upgrade installs because it’ll just carry

⏹️ ▶️ John everything over and it’s perfectly fine it’s not like windows you have to wipe out your whole computer don’t be afraid

⏹️ ▶️ John of the upgrade install uh embrace it and there are lots of cool products out there cool to varying degrees

⏹️ ▶️ John that will that will script your like so you got a new mac this thing will apply

⏹️ ▶️ John all your settings but i i felt like all of them i’ve looked into a lot of them some of them are based on puppet which is a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John scary because puppets a little bit wonky but uh google uses one based on puppet i think but there’s all sorts of

⏹️ ▶️ John solutions like that even just some people have a giant like shell script that they run that does a bunch of things but you don’t need any of

⏹️ ▶️ John that if you just do upgrade installs so don’t be afraid to customize your computer uh

⏹️ ▶️ John it is a good idea to keep a text file around to just remind you what the customizations are which is what i did when i got my new mac at work

⏹️ ▶️ John because i wasn’t upgrade installing from anything right but for your home computers you don’t have that problem

⏹️ ▶️ John you can use migration assistant connected with ethernet wi-fi firewire i recommend using the the fastest

⏹️ ▶️ John connection possible to bring all your crap over from your old computer to your new one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I kind of use both extremes on. I hardly ever upgraded my desktop, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both hardware and software wise. And when I do, um, update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the newest OS on my desktop or get a new desktop, uh, I always do upgrade installs or migrations.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Uh, it’s fine. However, on my laptops, which I’m buying at increasing frequencies, um,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I almost always do clean installs because it’s like my secondary system usually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am less careful with what I install on it like why like when I installed that collection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of trucks I am usually more willing to experiment on it so for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco instance right now my laptop has high Sierra on it my desktop is not so my laptop I’m always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing clean installs my laptops I guess I should say and my desktop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I always upgrade and I’ve I’ve been carrying over the same installation on my desktop for a long time now. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my entire time using Macs since 2004,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I’ve done two clean installs on my desktop, or maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one. It’s a small number. And everything else was just upgrades

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s been totally fine. Like John, I probably have a lot of clutter that I could get rid

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of, but it’s also just, I have so many things set up just the way I like them and so many little details here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there. And I can tell because when I go use a cleanly installed laptop that I have purchased

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for this quarter, I can always tell like, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John wow,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this thing doesn’t work right, or this is kind of not quite there. Oh, I wish I had this thing here that I have in my desktop set

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up. So there are benefits of both, but certainly like, you know, the old,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re like me and you came from the Windows world, where like it was basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a horrible idea to ever upgrade, like you should, in the Windows world when I was in it, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should only ever have done clean installs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even when you weren’t changing Windows versions, you should probably do a clean install of your OS like every six

⏹️ ▶️ Marco months, which I did. And like, and because Windows is so bad, at least it was.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if Windows is any better. I haven’t honestly been a Windows user in literally, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, 10, 12 years now at least. So it might be better now. Although one thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Windows doesn’t do very well is change. so we’ll see, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey we’ll hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the feedback with that. But yeah, so I’ve seen both, and I would say on a Mac, you don’t need to do clean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco installs for the most part, almost any time ever. I only do it on my laptops

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more as a curiosity and cleanliness thing and experimentation.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you guys should run ls-tl tilde slash library slash preferences, and then

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey look at the last line of alpha.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whoa, whoa, slow down. Just find the oldest item your library preferences folder. I was just giving you

⏹️ ▶️ John a way to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 2011 for me. What’s your

⏹️ ▶️ John last item, Casey?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Today, so the last item, December 31st, 1969. January 18 of 2016, which is when I got the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computer. Was it a clean install?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that matches my recollection, which is that this was a clean

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John install.

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco, what is your last item there? What is it actually? What preference?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole bunch of lock files, PLIST lock files.

⏹️ ▶️ John Ah, great, yeah, those are great. Leftover from programs that crashed while they were in the middle of locking

⏹️ ▶️ John something and nothing ever cleaned up the lock files.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, and it’s just, you know, it’s all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, the, Bezel Services, App Store, Address Book, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff like that. Yeah, so I must have done a good job cleaning out the resource-based ones, although BBeta probably still has ones, but I moved a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot of BBeta stuff to Dropbox, so it’s synced between machines. That’s another preference hack, by the way. If programs

⏹️ ▶️ John support it, you can sim link things into Dropbox and then your preferences will be the same everywhere you install Dropbox. But

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, my bottom item is from 2003 Adobe registration database. We’ve also

⏹️ ▶️ John got a folder, an Aladdin folder and com dot Ambrosia, sw dot even over that P list.

⏹️ ▶️ John Lots of good stuff there. So 2003 and I think I must have gone through and cleaned out a bunch of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John before this. So that’s that’s how the very least that’s how long I’ve been doing upgrade installs that have carried over to this

⏹️ ▶️ John exact computer. In the early days of Mac OS 10, things were a little bit sketchier. so I probably lost a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of my folders at various points. 2004, 2005, I scroll up, 2006, every year is represented. Just the purposes never go away

Follow-up: Google Pixel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we should start with follow-up and we have some follow-up with regard to the Google pixel and we had a handful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of people write in various degrees of anger mostly just emails

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about how we How we didn’t really give Google enough credit and this happens every time we talk

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about Google and I think some of it is Justified like I said, I mean it’s not unreasonable for someone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say Hey, you know, we don’t know Google in and out like we at least think we know Apple but But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the things that we had said, and I think it was me especially, that had said was that I thought it was kind of bogus that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my buddy at work could pre-order his, or maybe just straight up order, his Google

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pixel 2 XL maybe? Whatever it was that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John ordered. It’s 40. Anyway, he ordered it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, whatever joke you made, what was it you said? Pixel 210

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John like 10L? Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That joke was much better than I gave you credit for because it flew right over my head when it happened. So I’d like to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey publicly acknowledge that I missed it on the last episode. But anyway, I was lamenting that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s a bummer that I have to wake up at three in the morning to give Apple a whole shed load of my money, which of course I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to do, but that’s what I need to do if I want to get it in a timely fashion, because I’m an entitled

⏹️ ▶️ Casey materialistic American. So Hans Hauer, I hope I pronounced that right. I asked for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey help. I hope I got that right. Wrote in to say, you know, Apple launches the iPhone 8 in more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than 25 countries And we’ll add dozens more this year. The old pixel, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey original pixel. So a year ago, pixel is still only available in six

⏹️ ▶️ Casey countries, which I thought was a really interesting point. So here it is. I’m beaten up on Apple for not really doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the pre-order the way I wanted it at the time I wanted it. But, you know, this is a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really good point that Apple is shipping to way more places and presumably shipping far more phones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than Google is. And that, that comes with it some penalty for lack of a better word. and that it’s just harder

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I mean, that also even restricts like what kind of component choices and manufacturing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco methods that Apple, and materials that Apple can even use in the iPhone. Like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just makes so many more iPhones than pretty much anything else in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer and electronic world that it’s hard to even fathom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the realities of how they need to do this and the restrictions it puts on them. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco remember there was a brief rumor before last year’s phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they were going to make one out of ceramic. And a few people with knowledge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that business basically said, like, there isn’t enough ceramic making capacity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the world to satisfy that. Even if they bought every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco machine that exists to do this in the world, it wouldn’t be enough capacity. And so, what Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has to do at their scale is so unlike what most companies have to worry about.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because, not only do they have to make a lot of them, but they have to make a lot of them quickly and all over the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco world. This is not easy. And so, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost impossible to compare anything else to what Apple does with the iPhone. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the feedback we got about mostly my dismissing remarks about the Google Pixel because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my position basically was like it’s interesting and every you know every time a Google phone comes out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the reviewers say wow this is really great and then they just abandon it like two weeks later for the next Samsung

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing or could they go back to their iPhones if they were iPhone people most of the feedback we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco got didn’t really contradict that it was more like you’re wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I like it and that’s fine I’m not saying that nobody likes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Pixel, but that the Google phones are not mass-market

⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices. I hope someday they will become mass-market devices, because as I said last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco episode, when Apple has really good competition, Apple does better. Even though I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t have any interest in switching to Android, I want there to be amazing Android phones that keep pushing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple to make the phones I use better. The Google Pixel and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco former Nexus series, they just don’t sell in enough volume to really make Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to worry about really anything. So again, I hope that changes over time, but that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is still the reality. Yeah, I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey agree with that. Also in the Google camp, Josh Lamkin writes, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he wrote an email describing kind of the repair process because I think he took issue with the fact that one of the things that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it might have been Marco, but one of us said, it was that, hey, you know, Apple has all this retail presence and Google

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t have that. And that’s an advantage for Apple, which as much as we all lament the time it takes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get a Genius Bar appointment, I still stand by what Marco said, but Josh writes in and said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in summary that if he needs to get a repair done on his Pixel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone, the repair is an overnighted replacement unit with a box for your existing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone and it’s all done online. And he said, I usually have my replacement Android device before my usual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey geek bar appointment would be. So in other words, if he has a problem, he, I guess on the phone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if possible, and if not on the web, he goes and reports an issue and ends up talking like live chatting with a Google

⏹️ ▶️ Casey representative, and if they confirm that it’s a legitimate problem, they will overnight him a new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone. So, or presumably a refurbished phone. So it will be there the following day. And, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he takes that box, puts his existing phone in it, ships it back and that’s it job done.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you know what? That sounds pretty fricking great to me. It’s not as quick as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going into the Apple store and getting a screen replaced in the span of two hours, but that’s pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good for a company that has pretty much zero retail presence.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, gotta give them credit. That is a good setup. I still think Apple is way ahead of them on so many levels by having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco physical stores, but that is better than I expected Google’s process to be because in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the past, not even that distant past, dealing with them for any kind of directly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco purchased electronic device was a nightmare.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want to add that like an old man playing World of Warcraft on an iMac and a Panera Bread, I have nothing to apologize

⏹️ ▶️ John for.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’m not worried because I did not make

⏹️ ▶️ John this unfounded disparaging remarks about Google because I’ve never had a Google phone. The only thing that I would have added to that conversation

⏹️ ▶️ John about Google if I had anything to add, which I always said I didn’t feel like I did, was my impression of the nexus line.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this was echoed by a couple of people who sent feedback was like, I don’t know if Google is not trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a mass market phone or this is just their excuse. It was always like, this is what you could

⏹️ ▶️ John do with our operating system if you made a cool phone. Now everybody else who

⏹️ ▶️ John uses our operating system, go make cool phones like this. It’s like the exemplar. Like they don’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ John to sell a whole bunch of them. That’s why it’s only for sale in six countries. It’s just kind of like showing the way to other people. Kind of like reference

⏹️ ▶️ John designs from video card makers or whatever. Maybe not quite the same thing because they’re not just giving that design

⏹️ ▶️ John to other people. But I don’t know if that’s actually true or if that’s just something they say when they don’t sell a lot of them. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah.

Follow-up: Cellular fees

Chapter Follow-up: Cellular fees image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. So I feel like I need a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey moment to get something off my chest.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something that something relates to, you guessed it, cellular Apple Watch service

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fees.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh, really?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because, oh, yes, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco does. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey giving more time to this. We are giving more time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John to this. And do you know why?

⏹️ ▶️ John They even charge him tax and additional fees.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, yeah. I read about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That is the executive summary. You read about taxes? Yeah, I’ve heard of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey them too. That is the executive summary. But I have received my first bill since I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey activated my cellular Apple Watch. My $10 a month service, which I knew would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not be $10, but I was hoping, ignorantly and naively so, I was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hoping would be not too much more than $10 a month. Would you two, if you’ve not already clicked the link in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show notes, would you like to guess how much my $10 a month service

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is? Is it like $12 or $13? $17.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, did you look at the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John because it is $17.40.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the monthly plan charges is $10. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will put a link, I will put an image in the show, in the show notes for the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John episode. Is there

⏹️ ▶️ John a convenience fee? Like when you buy tickets online,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey movie tickets

⏹️ ▶️ John online?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The breakdown is very quickly, $10 for the watch, administrative fee, 76 cents, federal universal service charge, $2.42,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey regulatory cost recovery charge, $1.25, And Virginia equipment tax recoupment, 7

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cents. Delightful.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, and then not to mention the government taxes and fees.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I think that is everything. I think that the federal universal service charge is that, the $2.42. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco but what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the government taxes and fees, the $2.90, via Virginia wireless E911 and Virginia communications

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sales tax?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I didn’t scroll down. My mistake. I didn’t scroll down on my own image. My mistake. Yes, you’re exactly right. $2.90, of which $0.75

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is Virginia wireless E911, And $2.15 is Virginia Communications

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John sales tax.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey My mistake. Yeah, so you actually are 1740s.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wow. There you go.

Tiled Windows of Casey County

Chapter Tiled Windows of Casey County image.

⏹️ ▶️ John What kind of tiny size do you have your web browser window that you had to scroll to see the bottom of this image? This is the

⏹️ ▶️ John real question is your web browser like a tiny slit like the window on a Challenger

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, because all right well now now we’re gonna have to go down this

⏹️ ▶️ John Glimpse into Casey’s life it all his web browser windows are one inch tall I’m not sure you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to talk about crazy window setups

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No

⏹️ ▶️ John As I’m saying minor minor proportion like sheets of paper because that’s the same proportion for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey a web browser

⏹️ ▶️ Casey window So only when I record this show, only when I record this show. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have four panes on my single virtual desktop. So I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t really bother with my spaces as I usually do when I’m typically using the computer in the upper left-hand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey corner, Skype. In the upper, in the upper right-hand corner, taking up approximately a quarter of the screen is my web browser

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the bottom, which by the way, is Chrome only because I use Google docs here, generally speaking, I never touch Chrome,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the bottom right-hand corner is visual studio code to work on the show notes and the bottom left hand corner

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is colloquy which is how I get on the chat room. So it is effectively divided

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into four quarters and this is on my 5k iMac and so this particular window

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was about a quarter of the screen and it was just barely not enough to see that last section.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is an incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ John inefficient use of space. You’re using Windows wrong. I love that call recorder jammed

⏹️ ▶️ John it. yeah that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s actually

⏹️ ▶️ John kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of perfect but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is an incredibly poor use of space like first of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all like things overlapping when I’m recording

⏹️ ▶️ John the sidebar on the call who and oh come on

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah you don’t need to go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that big you don’t need call QE to be anywhere near

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that big

⏹️ ▶️ John window is as small as I can possibly make it I wish I could make it smaller but you know Skype being Skype it has like nope you

⏹️ ▶️ John can never make it a reasonable size this is a small that ever gets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah and and your your text editor window like that’s a terrible aspect ratio for writing notes like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would like the the the portrait orientation sheet of paper aspect ratio is way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better for text

⏹️ ▶️ John editors like look at I love all the white space and his browser windows have the huge margins left and right but it

⏹️ ▶️ John cuts off on the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John stop stop tiling your windows that’s amazing this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only for when I record you big

Chapter Menu$$$bar$ of Casey County image.

⏹️ ▶️ John How many how many s’s do you have in your in your menu bar there? I’m like alright, so you got a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John icons Why are the three s’s for four s’s one of them is way over on the right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s even worse. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John even dollar

⏹️ ▶️ John signs are they I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You’re really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco breaking in the dough there in your menu bar. You got three dollar signs wait Does that does that mean your menu bar is expensive like on Yelp

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stuff sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I see

⏹️ ▶️ John it now 100% I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s four

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey hiding do you want to know what it is?

⏹️ ▶️ John What’s the little pinwheel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dropbox?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hold on, one step at a time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have Siri enabled at all, but it’s all the way over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey there?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey For the love of God, people, can you give me a chance to reply to any of

⏹️ ▶️ John this? The one color icon is just randomly placed in the middle of everything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can you give me a chance? My menu bar is a disaster

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John on this machine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll be the first to admit it. I will be the first to admit it. The dollar signs are because I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have installed the most recent version of iStatMenus, menus, but apparently never entered my registration

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco information. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it has then said, give me money, apparently.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So how long has that been that way?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, for maybe a few days, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John a week.

⏹️ ▶️ John It shows all the benefit you’re getting from iStatMenus. I only need to keep an eye on my dollar signs. Keep

⏹️ ▶️ John his mind on his money, and it’s money on his mind.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Who’s saying that? Oh my God, who’s saying that? I’m drawing a blank. Snoop Dogg, getting juice?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is it? I don’t recall. You’re probably right. I just put my updated menu bar in the robot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m sorry live listeners. I will be the first to tell you it is not good. It is not good and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is just plain not good and I am embarrassed by it. Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco god.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Especially because I’m a devout as few things in the menu bar. I can get Siri out of the menu bar.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I need to do that. Fuzzy clock, come on. Oh, fuzzy clock works. Wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can I get Siri out of the menu bar? I got to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you have you do you have a translucent menu bar too?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I do I do You definitely do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s God that cannot that cannot be

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t even know that was still a feature

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let’s play a new game. Like what won’t Casey notice about his computer?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did know I did know about the dollar signs. I is my menu bar really translucent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yes, the

⏹️ ▶️ John yellow background

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey of the leaves or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Honestly, I was going through my file full of PLIST

⏹️ ▶️ John hack commands for undocumented stuff like turn off window animations and I saw the one about the translucent menu bar and I’m like, oh, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John glad that feature isn’t in Mac OS X anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Where do you turn this off? I want this off

⏹️ ▶️ John now. I honestly thought it wasn’t there anymore, but apparently it is and just like my PLIST setting has been surviving multiple

⏹️ ▶️ John OS updates. Or maybe it’s a checkbox now.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John is this? I think it’s a good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s a display panel.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’ll figure I’ll figure it out I’ll do some real-time follow-up in three hours when I finally figure out where the hell

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah Wow that’s alright so anyway So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey suffice to say suffice it to say never ever ever talk about your setup with these two numbskulls because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s not It’s just not smart My word I can’t find

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this this is driving me bananas. Where is it?

⏹️ ▶️ John You might have to do that you might have to do the defaults right whatever thing

Follow-up: Cellular fees

Chapter Follow-up: Cellular fees image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So in summary, I pay too much for my Apple Watch and it makes me sad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I agree. So I was totally railing against you that, you know, complaining about $10 a month

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the degree that you complained about it was unnecessary. However,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was still like, that’s, I still agree that that is a little more than what it should cost.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just didn’t think it was worth complaining as much as you did. And you know, not getting it as a result. However, $17 a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a month really, which is what this really is, that’s a different story. That’s really pushing it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is not worth that for almost anybody, which is unfortunate.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s basically being treated as a separate line by the cellular bills,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco taxing, and regulation system. I don’t know if it’s possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because you have number sync, even though the watch does technically have its own number.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s the same way like my iPad has its own phone number assigned to it when I activated it with cellular,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you can’t call it, you can’t do anything with that phone number, it’s just like an implementation detail of something having cellular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco service, but it shouldn’t be treated the same way as like a regular phone line is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so maybe the watch is being misclassified, maybe it’s temporary,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know, but that’s messed up. Like, to have—for a $10 fee, to have another $7

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in taxes and BS on top of that, that’s BS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And by the way, a quick—not real-time follow-up, but a quick follow-up—I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey found on my AT&T bill that there is, to your point, Marco, an actual phone number listed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there. And it occurred to me, I bet I could call that number. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel like I had heard on a podcast somewhere, maybe it was Mike, somebody had talked about this. And so I turned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off Bluetooth on my phone and then used my cell phone to dial my Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Watch. And once it, you know, once, once it realized the phone wasn’t there and it fell back onto cellular,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sure enough, I could dial this unique number that’s unique to my Apple Watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it rang no problem, which is exactly what I expected, but just kind of funky. Like it, it makes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sense. I’m not saying it’s bad or wrong or anything, but it’s kind of weird and kind of funny that it worked

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. MAX WELLS No, that is bad and wrong. That means it’s going to get robocalls.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey STEVEN That’s terrible, actually. COREY But on the plus

⏹️ ▶️ Casey side, the only way that would happen is if it actually has the cellular radio on, which only happens when it’s away

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the phone, which for me only happens once or twice a day.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco MAX WELLS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can get robocalls during the time when you really want to be focused on your exercise or whatever else, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco focused on your kid in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey the park. STEVEN Yeah, exactly. He’s flawless.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Fracture, printing your photos directly on glass.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to slash podcast to learn more. Fracture is a photo decor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco company, and they are out to rescue your favorite images from the digital ether. They know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that once you post it on Instagram or Facebook or whatever else, the next day it’s gone, you’ll never see it again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Get those great photos printed out and put them physically somewhere in your house, or give them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as gifts, they make wonderful gifts. and they print your photos at Fracture directly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco onto sheets of glass. They go edge to edge and they add a laser-cut rigid backing, so they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ready to display or hang right out of the box. They even include the wall anchor if you need it. Just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco upload a digital photo and pick your size. It is that simple. And the Fracture printing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco process really makes the color and contrast pop. And the sleek, frameless, edge-to-edge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco design lets your photo stand out while still fitting in to any decorating style.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So bring your special memories to life, give them as wonderful gifts, or decorate your home with the moments

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that tell your story. Fractures come with a 60-day happiness guarantee, so you are sure to love your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco order. And each fracture is handmade in Gainesville, Florida, from U.S. source materials in a carbon-neutral

⏹️ ▶️ Marco factory. For more information and 10% off your first order, visit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash podcast. They will ask you which show you came from, make sure to tell them you came from ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It helps support the show.

Home-assistant ecosystems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So once again fracture me calm slash podcast. Thank you so much to fracture for sponsoring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So hopefully cheer me up one of you and tell me about Sonos which I don’t care about in Google assistant Which I also don’t care about

⏹️ ▶️ John we missed this last week when we talked about it Oh, so I was integrating with Amazon and what was the deal with them you doing

⏹️ ▶️ John the Alexa stuff? Sonos is a trying to apparently trying to be

⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware platform that is host to anybody who has a

⏹️ ▶️ John software thing that you can talk to. So Google Assistant is another software thing you can talk to and Sonos is apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John integrating with them. I’m not quite sure how it works. You buy a Sonos thing, do you get to say, do you want to talk to

⏹️ ▶️ John the Amazon personal assistant voice thingy, or do you want to talk to the Google

⏹️ ▶️ John one, or do you pick when you buy it like an old Verizon iPhone versus AT&T iPhone thing?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t of the details but this this kind of changes well doesn’t change but like I’m trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John get some new perspective on Sonos and and the combination

⏹️ ▶️ John of Amazon and who’s coming out ahead in this deal and what the strategies are and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John two parts this one is that the some of the people with voice assistants certainly

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon but maybe also Google will see seem to be initially pursuing the

⏹️ ▶️ John strategy of we want our voice thing everywhere is apparently available on

⏹️ ▶️ John an anchor product to a and K are the people who make like the chargers and stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ John various times Amazon has talked about spreading their voice thingy

⏹️ ▶️ John everywhere. If you have a thing that with microphones that you can talk to and you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to do a business deal with them, they’ll connect it up to Amazon because now you got our paper towels through

⏹️ ▶️ John your whatever because you talk to it, right? So that’s one way you can go. It’s kind of like the,

⏹️ ▶️ John the windows everywhere strategy of, you know, we just think

⏹️ ▶️ John of Amazon, for the most part with its where can I watch Amazon video, most

⏹️ ▶️ John televisions you buy will have it built in just like Netflix. Most boxes you

⏹️ ▶️ John buy will have a built in except for apples because of a grudge match thing going on there.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they’ll put their voice assistant on hardware products that are not made by them, whether it’s some notes or

⏹️ ▶️ John anchor or probably anybody else who will do whatever deal. I think their ideal future is

⏹️ ▶️ John wherever you are in the entire world, you can just yell out the name of that voice assistant that I’m trying to avoid saying

⏹️ ▶️ John and order paper towels and they’ll you know, figure out who you are and send them to visit you know, easy ways to

⏹️ ▶️ John send Amazon your money. It’s great, right? And Google Assistant being on Sonos, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know if Google is spreading its assistant far and wide. But being on Sonos as

⏹️ ▶️ John well as okay, well, we’re not going to say if you want to talk to the Google Assistant, you have to buy an Android

⏹️ ▶️ John phone or Google Home, you can talk to the Google Assistant through your Sonos speaker at the very least and possibly

⏹️ ▶️ John other places as well. And on the other side of that, if you’re Sonos,

⏹️ ▶️ John their strategy seems to be like we make great hardware, and we have, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the wireless communication stuff and an iOS app or whatever to do multi room audio and all the stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John that we do. We don’t do an assistant, but we’re not gonna tell you which assistant you have to use.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re we’re not going to say we believe the one and only true assistant is the Amazon one. And that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s like if you have an assistant that you want to talk to through our speaker, let’s do a deal.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I guess they’ll let the customers decide. And when I think of you know, if if the

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon strategy is Alexa everywhere, when I think of the Sonos strategy, I feel like are you trying to be

⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware makers in the PC age where Windows is everywhere, and then

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft doesn’t really care who is licensing Windows for their hardware, just let the hardware people fight it out.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then you’ll just be marginalized and be fighting over raises and margins against everyone else who makes a

⏹️ ▶️ John speaker that has Amazon or Google Assistant integrated. The difference here, of

⏹️ ▶️ John course, is that no voice assistant is as dominant as Windows was.

⏹️ ▶️ John If that changes, then yeah, the hardware people are in a bad position because I feel like most of the value is in the thing that you talk to, especially

⏹️ ▶️ John if the thing that you talk to buys you things from like the store that one of the people runs.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then way off to the side, lest anyone forget, is Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John who doesn’t really have an Amazon video TV app still, right? We’re still waiting for that. I keep, yep.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I don’t really check them, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So Amazon is kind of being mean to them about that because they’re everywhere else.

⏹️ ▶️ John They have a speaker thingy, but it hasn’t even shipped yet. When it does ship, you can be sure that it will

⏹️ ▶️ John not support Google Assistant or Amazon’s voice stuff, right? And

⏹️ ▶️ John so far, it doesn’t seem like Apple is all about putting Siri everywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ John Will my next television have Siri built in? Can I buy an Anker Puck for $35 that has Siri built in? I’m thinking

⏹️ ▶️ John no. So some very different strategies in the early age

⏹️ ▶️ John of cylinders that you talk to. And to wrap all this up, our friend

⏹️ ▶️ John Stephen Hackett had a nice post about his smart speaker conundrum, And I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it is similar to a lot of tech nerdy people who may have, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna say, may have gone in too deep with like too much different stuff. Like, well, my light bulbs speak

⏹️ ▶️ John this, but I like Apple stuff, but I subscribe to Google Play Music but I have, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it gets very confusing very fast. It’s a short blog post, you should read it, but just to get an idea of the choices

⏹️ ▶️ John that you have to make about what sort of internet of things, hardware products

⏹️ ▶️ John you buy, what software services you pay for, and can they all talk to each other and work together and how you figure out

⏹️ ▶️ John how to make your next purchase. Do I continue to go down the road that I was going down before with a bunch of Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ John things? Do I ditch everything and go to an all Apple world? But what about the Sonos? Even Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s mostly dedicated to the Amazon thing is kind of in that situation because you were saying, you know, do

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to buy a Sonos thing? Or maybe if the Sonos will just, my existing

⏹️ ▶️ John Echo products will talk to my existing Sonos, what do I do? Or do I switch over to be completely Sonos and get rid of the

⏹️ ▶️ John Echos? Because why do I need them if the Sonos all have smarter things in them? But can the Sonos thing talk

⏹️ ▶️ John to my light bulbs? I don’t know. I’m kind of glad I’m out of this market

⏹️ ▶️ John for the most part, other than having a cylinder that I can talk to. But it doesn’t, things don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John look smooth over there, is all I can say.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, this is, and first of all, some quick follow-up. Well, some half follow-up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Last episode, I had questioned whether it was possible to just set up your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Amazon Echo devices to talk to existing Sonos devices without having the new Sonos One? The answer is yes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I set it up tonight. However, I didn’t actually test it out because I was too busy playing Stardew Valley all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco night. But I will add to this discussion that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for just general buying advice or guiding people for what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do while this stuff is getting all crazy like this, as much as possible, get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that speak multiple languages, basically.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If Sonos ends up really pulling this off in a big way, like if they really do have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AirPlay 2 support, which is not having Siri built in, but having AirPlay 2

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will allow it even better integration with the Apple ecosystem. So if they pull off AirPlay 2,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which they promise for next year, if they pull off the Google Assistant, which they also promise, I believe, for next year, or is that immediate?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you remember? Anyway, they’re adding Google Assistant sometime soon. And right now there are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a few weird little asterisks about voice control. So basically,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Sonos, you can’t access Spotify through voice control, even though the Echo products

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can. And you can’t access Apple Music through voice control,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though the Sonos products can. So there’s all these little weird exceptions to like, well, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do mostly everything, except it can’t do this little exception. I can’t do this little exception. It’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like USB-C. But anyways, there’s all these little exceptions. So it’s hard to say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sure, like, you know, this device or this device can do everything. But it sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does look like, you know, Google is never gonna integrate anything. Like, Google’s never gonna have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri or AirPlay 2 from Apple. They’re never gonna have probably the Amazon Assistant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or the kind of integrations Amazon has. Amazon’s also never gonna have the stuff from Apple, but we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also never do the Google Assistant. Sonos is probably set up so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far with the things we know to have the most support from the most places, which is why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s interesting, even though it has those weird little exceptions to things. And when you’re buying products

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like smart home stuff, these days it’s not that hard to find stuff that supports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both HomeKit and the Amazon devices, so you might as well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that when you can. but all this stuff is so, so early that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s still advisable to just wait on almost all this stuff, even though it’s fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like if you are averse to having to replace some of the gear you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy now in a year or two when standards change or when you wanna change ecosystems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or when some ecosystem cuts off some other ecosystem that used to be integrated, if you’re averse to that, just don’t buy anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. If you do jump in now, be prepared for that possibility.

⏹️ ▶️ John In some respects, we’re saying like Apple’s just off there in the corner, like with its proprietary stuff that it’s never gonna mix with

⏹️ ▶️ John anybody else and that it hasn’t even shipped its very first cylinder and who knows how good it will even be. And

⏹️ ▶️ John meanwhile, everyone else on their second or third iteration and has this big ecosystem and lots of users and stuff. But

⏹️ ▶️ John on the other hand, the advantage that Apple still has because there is still no dominant, really dominant player

⏹️ ▶️ John in this market on the hardware or software side at this point, except for I guess maybe Amazon, but I don’t think they ever tell

⏹️ ▶️ John us what they sell, is that if you do go all Apple, you subscribe to Apple Music, you buy Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, you buy the Apple HomePod, you have AirPlay support and all your thingies, you have Apple TVs

⏹️ ▶️ John everywhere, at least you can be sure all that stuff works together. Whereas, I mean, I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John Google, if you have an Android phone and a home thing, you’re kind of in the same situation,

⏹️ ▶️ John but Amazon doesn’t have a desktop laptop operating system.

⏹️ ▶️ John They have a tablet OS, but I don’t know if you’re really gonna buy that tablet. They don’t have a phone anymore, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t sell the Fire Phone. No one has as complete an ecosystem as

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, and so no one can offer the type of just buy everything from us

⏹️ ▶️ John and your whole life from your computer to your phone to your television to your weird cylinder speaker that you talk to

⏹️ ▶️ John and subscribe to our music service. We’ll all work together. They’ve got the biggest picture. I suppose Google does too if you count

⏹️ ▶️ John the weird Google laptops and the Chromebooks and stuff as well, I tend not to count

⏹️ ▶️ John those. Um, so if you had money to burn and you wanted to make sure you had a system

⏹️ ▶️ John that all worked together, that would be one way to go. Assuming Apple actually shipped that stuff and it was any good, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t see how that can hold long term. Uh, I, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John and if Apple just wants the high end and if someone else isn’t successful, then maybe they can get that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I hope eventually standards start to emerge and coalesce and it’s, it becomes more

⏹️ ▶️ John clear what the safe approach is, when you buy and have some reasonable chance that it will be useful

⏹️ ▶️ John for a long time. But like Marco said, right now, there is nothing that’s the case for it. You want to buy and play with it and it’s cool and it’s fun,

⏹️ ▶️ John fine, but don’t buy it and then two years be all annoyed because you have to replace half of it or

⏹️ ▶️ John it becomes obsolete or doesn’t work with your new new light bulbs or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am also increasingly concerned about Apple’s chances to really make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a dent in this market because as everyone else progresses and advances

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so quickly, the possible advantages Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has keep getting—I think that list keeps getting shorter, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that on the main factors of the reasons why people buy and use these things, I am increasingly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco concerned about Apple’s competitiveness. So, for instance, not only my previous concerns

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about things like price, connectivity, and the quality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Siri, and the consistency of Siri to react quickly and correctly to as many queries as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m increasingly concerned that if having a large ecosystem of compatible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Internet of Things things, if that’s important, or if interoperability

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with anything else, with any of these other systems are important, or if third-party app support is important,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s gonna really fall down hard in those areas, probably for a very long time, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not forever. And so I really have concerns.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not that they’ll sell none of these things. They’ll sell some. But are we looking at the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next Amazon Echo or are we looking at the next iPod Hi-Fi?

⏹️ ▶️ John The Echo took a while to get going too, and they have loosened up the HomeKit stuff in various ways, which shows

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they know that they need to do something. But my biggest concern with Apple is everyone else is shipping and

⏹️ ▶️ John shipping again and multiple generations like it was hoist this up from it was down in the topic section. We didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John talk last week about the Google Home Max and Mini, which is the Google Home Mini is a tiny little

⏹️ ▶️ John puck thing, kind of like the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like the echo dot.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And then the Max is a big, you know, Sonos size multi speaker thing. It’s got two big woofers

⏹️ ▶️ John and two big tweeters, you know, for better sound. This is Google’s I think second or maybe third iteration

⏹️ ▶️ John of their their home products and and they already have multiple form factors in three different sizes, Apple still

⏹️ ▶️ John has not shipped its one single form factor very first cylinder. They’re so far behind,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t be in this game if you haven’t even shipped your thing yet. Where is the three

⏹️ ▶️ John different sizes of Apple stuff, the second or third revision of the hardware and software,

⏹️ ▶️ John and the ecosystem that’s built up around it? You have to ship, you have to start, make

⏹️ ▶️ John your first one that doesn’t seem like it can do much and people aren’t that interested in, then make your second one, then make

⏹️ ▶️ John your line of three new ones and just they have a lot of catching up to do if they

⏹️ ▶️ John want to do something here. And they’re just lucky essentially that no one standard

⏹️ ▶️ John or thing has really completely run away with it. And again, maybe maybe that’s not true. Maybe Amazon has run away

⏹️ ▶️ John with it. And we just don’t know because people are shy about their sales numbers. But

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know, Google’s and also ran that very few people get but I don’t know. I get more

⏹️ ▶️ John apples marketing and brand recognition is something that could save it if their product is actually good, but

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think it’s still going to ship this year?

⏹️ ▶️ John Did they say it was supposed to ship this year? I kept thinking it was going to ship next year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, they said Home Pop was, I believe they said either later this year or December. I forget which of those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John exactly. No, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason I discounted it is because they said such a late ship date. It’s like, well, you’re not making the holiday, so who the hell cares? Just

⏹️ ▶️ John pretend it’s next year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it sounded kind of like they were going to like pretty much miss the holidays, but maybe you can place an order

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on December 15th, even though you probably won’t get it by the holidays. That’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what it sounded like, but they’re not going to launch this thing without having another event,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Because right now we know nothing about its capabilities. All we know is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John good. It plays music. That’s all we know. But we don’t know how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it plays music. We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything about Siri on it. We don’t know anything about any other kind of smart, anything about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They were able to show nothing, basically. So they probably wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch it without some kind of small event, or at least private

⏹️ ▶️ Marco demo. I don’t like, but time is running out in the year for when they might do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like I don’t like, I would bet, especially as we’ve heard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing about it since then, I bet it misses this year. I bet it’s delayed. Which is even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more concerning if it’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’ll become an Apple TV remote that you hold down the speaker button and talk into when you want it to play something. You

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just wear it

⏹️ ▶️ John around your neck on a lanyard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Squarespace. Start building your website today at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and enter offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off. Make your next move

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with a beautiful website from Squarespace. Squarespace is by far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the easiest and most practical and pragmatic way I have ever seen to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco websites for pretty much anything. Whether it’s a store, or a blog,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a podcast, or a portfolio, you can do so much with Squarespace

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with such incredible ease. And then the output is professionally designed. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco looks amazing. And this isn’t just like rigid templates. You can customize them as much as you want.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can go from the nice basic changing colors and everything, all the way down to the nitty gritty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want to. You can even inject code if you’re a developer and you know what you’re doing. It’s really easy to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You have so much power, so much customization. They have so many features, they can even fit them in a podcast ad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have things like logo designers, domain registration, built-in storefronts for digital or physical

⏹️ ▶️ Marco goods. All sorts of awesome features, all built-in at Squarespace. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco check it out today at And when you decide to sign up, make sure to use the offer code ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get 10% off your first purchase.

High Sierra update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Make your next move with a beautiful website from Squarespace. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, any other follow-up? Oh yes, there is one more which I am deeply afraid to bring up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Somebody has written a High Sierra update and then somebody… or was this me? Did I write this? Maybe I wrote

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this. God, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco haven’t even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John had a drink. Yeah, seriously. I don’t know what you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing. Casey’s fear and his FOMO. I don’t know why I wrote this because I wrote it days ago, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John basically I want

⏹️ ▶️ John to… But basically I write it I wrote it. You don’t even know what you wrote

⏹️ ▶️ John You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wrote you wrote FOMO in here you did that’s a very Casey thing to say

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not a Casey thing to say

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sure, but you’re you’re above that. I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I didn’t think I’m slang. What

⏹️ ▶️ John are you talking about? Anyway, it’s a thing that you say a lot. So it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey good applicable to you. Anyway, it

⏹️ ▶️ John was about you asking Hey, can I update to high Sierra?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey What is it? I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have frickin permission

⏹️ ▶️ John You just want reassurance and anyway, so I feel like it’s a balancing of your fear Which is like what if updated and hoses my

⏹️ ▶️ John computer

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and

⏹️ ▶️ John your phone low which is like everyone else around high Sierra And they’re all having fun and high Sierra

⏹️ ▶️ John And just plain old Sierra. It’s not high at all and I don’t have the cool new desktop background Which is the most important feature?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No that I don’t care about the most important features Apple watch unlock for my fancy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Cellular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John watch the desktop background is actually really nice though So last time we talked, I

⏹️ ▶️ John had some fear about it too. I was like, ah, I don’t know if I’m gonna update. And it’s a little bit scary.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, you got the new file system and the new version of photos and I’m hearing some

⏹️ ▶️ John weird stories and so on and so forth. But actually shortly after that show, an opportunity presented

⏹️ ▶️ John itself to just update my wife’s computer after doing umpteen backups. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John I did. And it was entirely uneventful.

⏹️ ▶️ John Other than one thing, which I mean, it’s kind of all tied up on the OS. The new version

⏹️ ▶️ John of Photos, which I’ve been playing with a lot, is being a little bit cranky. I don’t know if I wanna

⏹️ ▶️ John blame this on the new version of Photos, because if you Google for the error I’m getting, it is a many, many years old error.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, it’s for the entire life of the Photos application. You can go back in time and see that this is not, this is not a new phenomenon,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s a thing where it hangs during closing library. Like, you quit, and it shows a tiny little window that says

⏹️ ▶️ John closing the library, dot, dot, dot, And then it will just hang there forever. You’ll leave it overnight and come back, it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John still stay closed in the library. And of course you don’t want to kill it, right? Cause then you’re like, well it’s going to corrupt its library or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, oh, just hold down the option key when you launch it and you can repair your database, which I did. And it took a really

⏹️ ▶️ John long time to run and it repaired. And then I used photos for a while and then I quit and it said closing library. And it just sat

⏹️ ▶️ John there for a long time. So I did a bunch of samples. I filed the bug. They sent me back some scary instructions to

⏹️ ▶️ John enable the super duper debug mode on photos, which I may do if I get desperate.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s the only problem I’ve had other than that. I just I just pretend like nothing ever happened I’m just like oh

⏹️ ▶️ John new desktop backgrounds for everybody and photos has a bunch of new features in it, but it’s still slow by the way

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I’m fine. It doesn’t mean Casey should update because maybe it will be disastrous for you But

⏹️ ▶️ John I did it and nothing weird happened all my time machine updates continue to run crash plan continues

⏹️ ▶️ John to run no software stop working Everything it just like it is one of those updates

⏹️ ▶️ John where? where, you know, it, it seems like nothing actually happened, which I guess means that

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not taking advantage of whatever cool new features are in there that I’m supposed to be looking at. But it’s fine with me. That’s what I wanted. I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ John it to be uneventful. And so far, other than photos being photos, it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I actually have High Sierra on both my work and my work computer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and my MacBook adorable. And it’s been just fine. But I’ve been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scared slash hesitant to do it on my iMac, because God forbid there is some sort of issue

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with my podcast equipment or whatever, I guess I could fall back to Aaron’s MacBook Air and presumably pour another

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cup of water on it, but I’d rather not have a problem. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I basically asked in the relay slack, hey, have you guys upgraded? And Dan Moore

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I think one or two other people had said, yes, I have, and it’s been fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And like I said, it’s been fine in every other regard other than podcasting, but I hadn’t tried

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any of the podcast-related stuff yet. And I think the moral of the story is I’m probably going to do it after we record this show. Not like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tonight, but you know, sometime in the next

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John few days.

⏹️ ▶️ John Make backups. Uh, and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey keep in mind that

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not my, the computer that I’m recording this podcast on is still running El Capitan because it’s my 2008 Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John and can’t run Sierra.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Womp

⏹️ ▶️ John womp. That’s fine. Like, but I’m saying is I’m, I wasn’t, if I was trying to do it on the computer

⏹️ ▶️ John where I record a podcast, maybe I’d be even more wary, but my wife’s computer, I felt like, you know, I had her

⏹️ ▶️ John permission more or less. I talked to her about

⏹️ ▶️ John it. She just, I was trying to say, I, you know, I’m thinking of, you know, it’s, it might, I told her it might take many, many hours. Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t say, oh, the update will take like an hour, but like, you know, what if it had gone wrong? Then I have to restore

⏹️ ▶️ John from backup. That’s like, look, just, I’m going to start this process at noon on a weekend.

⏹️ ▶️ John If I started at noon, worst case scenario, you get your computer back tomorrow, midday, as I just spent

⏹️ ▶️ John hours doing tremendous amounts of IO. All right.

#askatp: Safari vs. Chrome

Chapter #askatp: Safari vs. Chrome image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so let’s do some Ask ATP. Let’s see. We’ll start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Kyle. Kyle writes in to say, hey, ATP, what browser do you guys use? I like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the idea of using Safari on all my devices, but Chrome’s extensions are so much better. I do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use, and I think I got this idea from Marco actually, I do use Chrome on occasion as like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my Google Docs slash Flash quarantine. The Flash part isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really a thing barely ever anymore, but from time to time I need it for some reason or another. usually restaurants,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I use it for Google docs, which is why I have it open for tonight because,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, I have the, our show notes in Google docs, but generally speaking, 99%

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of my web browsing for anything personal is Safari on every platform. I also use Google for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey work related things because our work is all in on Google apps. But, uh, other than work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and other than basically when I record the show, it’s pretty much all Safari to me. I am not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a heavy extensions user on either browser. Personally, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can’t fathom using Chrome full-time, especially on a laptop, but really at all,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I find it to be no faster than Safari, which I know everyone’s gonna write in and tell me how wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am, but I don’t find it to be any faster than Safari. And it is such a battery hog that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just, I can’t do it. And personally, I don’t know why anyone would. So with that in mind, Marco, what do you use?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty much same thing I’ve been doing for a long time now, which is Safari for almost everything, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then Chrome on the desktop, as you described, for either sites I don’t trust,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or things that require Flash, or things that are generally in the Google ecosystem. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google Docs, as you mentioned, it’s kind of like my podcasting browser, I have it open now, so my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first few tabs were all the stuff that I needed to record podcast stuff, because it started out being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google Docs, and it became my convention from there. And also I use Facebook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a couple of groups that I have to be a part of and so I don’t even have the app installed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my phone or anything. I keep Facebook only in Chrome and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have not logged into anywhere else and don’t have you know their creepiness attracting me or you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know tracking me all over the place and etc. I respect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why people like Chrome. There were times in my professional career

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and my home life where I have used Chrome full-time. I ended up switching back after

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while, but Chrome is fine. I just really like Safari a lot better.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I run both Chrome and Safari all the time on all my computers that I use, which may sound

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy. Remember, I do use desktops or I have a laptop at work that I pretend is a desktop, so I don’t care about battery because everything’s

⏹️ ▶️ John always plugged in.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now is this because you’re hitting some kind of limit on how many tabs and windows that one of them can have open at once. So you have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not hitting a limit like that. But why do I do it this split by?

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like there are advantages to both browsers. Safari has always been and still is my default. So if I click a link in

⏹️ ▶️ John anything, it opens in Safari. I like both browsers a lot. Chrome,

⏹️ ▶️ John I use all my Google stuff in. I use Gmail for my email. And I figure there’s a nice synergy.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure that Google’s properties or whatever will all work well in Chrome, because it’s Google’s interest

⏹️ ▶️ John to make sure that’s that the I’m sure they work fine in Safari too, but it just seems more natural for me

⏹️ ▶️ John to do all my Google stuff. I use Google Calendar, Google Docs, you know, all that stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John is in Chrome, and Safari for general web browsing.

⏹️ ▶️ John I use Chrome for general browsing, too, because Safari still does that thing occasionally to me, where it just says I’m not into

⏹️ ▶️ John loading web pages anymore. I always feel like it’s telling me you have too many windows open, right? Like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you’ve got a lot of Lee,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve got a lot of browser windows open, I know that you typed an address to the address

⏹️ ▶️ John bar and hit return, I might just stay here as a white window for a while to punish you for

⏹️ ▶️ John having like, maybe I’m not going to load windows anymore. And furthering that fact is sometimes I’ll be like, Alright,

⏹️ ▶️ John what if I close one of these background windows? And it’s like, Oh, okay, now I can load like I’ve said this before, like, it feels like it’s out of file

⏹️ ▶️ John descriptors. That’s not what’s happening. It doesn’t say that on the console. But it’s that type of feeling where it’s like it is exhausted some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John resource. Whereas Chrome, every single time I open a new window or tab and type

⏹️ ▶️ John Type a URL into the address bar and hit return. It loads the damn page every single time it does. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that is super important to me. And I love Chrome for that. And I also use Chrome’s dev tools. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t love this about Chrome, but I use it for node debugging too. I know there are better solutions. I’m just still

⏹️ ▶️ John stuck using Chrome for that. So I use both, but Safari is my default.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I do really love Chrome. And not because of all the extensions. I do have extensions installed. I just, I just think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a good, reliable web browser.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right.

#askatp: New Accord

Chapter #askatp: New Accord image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sebastian writes in continuing on the John portion of the show What are John’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thoughts on the new accord and we kind of touched on this in what will probably end up being the aftershow That

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we talked about before we started really recording So you may not have heard this listeners, but there will be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more accord talk at some point or another But John, what are your thoughts on the new accord?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s uglier than my generation of accord, which is a shame I like the fact that you get the stick shift with the

⏹️ ▶️ John big engine. I’m not I’m not sure about anything beyond that

⏹️ ▶️ John because I haven’t actually driven it myself. All I can say is that it seems like Honda is going

⏹️ ▶️ John in the right direction with this car and it’s getting good reviews but I’m kind of glad that both I and my wife got the previous

⏹️ ▶️ John generation. The only thing I’m really jealous of in the new one is the infotainment because my

⏹️ ▶️ John infotainment is dire and this one is less dire.

#askatp: Terminals and shells

Chapter #askatp: Terminals and shells image.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Komei writes in, for command line work, do you just use terminal or are you partial to a third-party app?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so, Marco, since you were quiet before, let’s start with you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had forgotten that there even were third-party terminal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John apps. So, wait, is this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the question about third-party terminal clients or is it about using GUIs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco versus terminal commands for things like MySQL and Git and stuff like that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s make it all of the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco above. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A, what shell are you on? B, in what kind of or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John in what app are you running that shell?

⏹️ ▶️ John Please don’t confuse shell with terminal. You know, it’s one of my pet peeves. Why would you do that to me?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whatever. God, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I was not aware this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was one of your pet peeves, actually. I wasn’t either. But okay, so… Must be a long list. Are you on bash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something else? Or whatever ridiculous one that John insists on? Are you on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the stock terminal app or something else? And when you’re doing things like Git, do you tend to do that on the command line or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey elsewhere. So all three of those, starting with Marco. And I have answers as well, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll round us all out at the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end. Okay. I use Apple’s normal terminal app. I find it great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have never sought a different one because I’m very happy with it. Yep, ditto.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I use Bash because, you know, probably for the same reason most people use Bash. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already there, and it’s what I’ve always known. I know there are better shells out there, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has just never been worth it for me to not only, you know, learn a new shell, but then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to put it on all the different, not only Macs, but all the servers that I log into. I mean, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco log into like 30 servers on a regular basis. So it’s not like, yes, I can, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, you can try to like automate stuff, but like it would just, it would be a pain for me to switch away from bash and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I, and it’s fine. I know it’s not amazing, but it’s fine. Um, as for,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, you know, GUIs versus terminal commands for things that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco programmers deal with. So things like Git, MySQL, PHP,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any kind of database source control kind of stuff. I use terminal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco commands for almost all of it, including any kind of MySQL administration,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like that. The only thing I really use GUIs for is I do still use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. I do now use them for Git. I use the Git Tower app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Mac. It is wonderful and I know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the Git commands that, you know, to use it via terminal or via command line,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but Git is terrible on the command line. I mean it’s hard enough to understand in a GUI, let alone the command line, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I find that while I can do these things in the command line, I usually prefer not to because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not only is the GUI less error prone and more intuitive for these kind of things, but it also provides

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some really nice features like the way it diffs and displays, commits, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco file diffs, and per line diffs, and everything. It’s really nice to be able to visualize that in a really nice GUI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I can tell like what have I changed in this file? What am I actually committing here?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly what lines have changed? Where have they changed? All this stuff is possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the command line, but it’s just so much easier in the GUI.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve already forgotten what all the questions

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey were. Okay, so do you use…

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’ll figure it

⏹️ ▶️ John out. The terminal app, I use the default terminal one and always have. It has been very reliable

⏹️ ▶️ John to me. I think I first fell in love with it when I saw the unlimited scroll back feature.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s all I want in life, is unlimited scroll back. Use all my memory. That’s it. That’s all

⏹️ ▶️ John you want in life. Yeah, just

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey unlimited

⏹️ ▶️ John scroll

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey back.

⏹️ ▶️ John I keep my computer running for a long time and windows open for a long time. Although actually I’m kind of a bit of

⏹️ ▶️ John a serial command care in terminal like truncating the scroll back

⏹️ ▶️ John which I shouldn’t do and I should use marks but I don’t but anyway, plain old terminal. I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John dabbled in things like I term and stuff but just terminal is is what I’ve always

⏹️ ▶️ John used and it’s always been so reliable. And it just does its job and all of the

⏹️ ▶️ John basics like copying pasting text and having it, you know, not copy hard line breaks at

⏹️ ▶️ John the end like crappy Windows terminal programs do and stuff like that. Just everything works fine

⏹️ ▶️ John when I and when I when I scroll my mouse wheel or you know, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John or use the cursor and EMAX and it picks it up like I don’t have to set all that stuff up. It’s the terminal

⏹️ ▶️ John type is set correctly for all the Mac OS 10 things that expected to be anyway. It’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure the other ones are better, but I don’t use them. So Plano terminal

⏹️ ▶️ John for what was the next one command line versus gooey

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco apps for shell program or

⏹️ ▶️ John anything. Oh, shell, shall I use I use TCSH because that’s what was installed on the ACS system at BU

⏹️ ▶️ John when I entered college in 1993. That’s it. I just have a collection of dot files that

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve been building up since then. I have also dabbled in other shells, but there’s no way I’m going to redo all my my dot files and

⏹️ ▶️ John aliases, I like TSSH, and it would take me a while for any shell, I actually tried Phish

⏹️ ▶️ John as well, it would take me a while for any shell for me to, I would have to basically remap everything.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’d have to say, I need control R to be reverse history search interactive,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I need it to behave exactly the same way as TCSH does, because if it doesn’t, my fingers won’t work anymore, and I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John need to go with that. So I dread the day that I have to compile TCSH myself, because Apple stopped shipping it, but

⏹️ ▶️ John so far they still do. And for

⏹️ ▶️ John programmery type apps, pretty much always command line. Like I, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I spent many, many years using Perforce and I only use the command line. The

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco only

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey time I would use the GUI is to do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I’m so sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s not that bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John The only time I use the GUI is when I need to do, see like a revision graph or some other sort of GUI thing in the P4V app.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I kind of feel like that I don’t actually know the version control system if I don’t know how

⏹️ ▶️ John to use the command line. And Git is the ultimate challenge to that. It’s like, oh yeah, try using this freaking command line.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I hate it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey with a passion.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is so poorly designed. Everything about it is terrible. And I am terrible at Git, because I’ve only

⏹️ ▶️ John been using Git at work, basically, for, I don’t know, like less than a year now. I never

⏹️ ▶️ John really, really learned it, even though I’ve read a million tutorials. And at one point, I feel like, I finally understand Git. But

⏹️ ▶️ John that was like years ago when it was first created. Someone wrote a really good explanation of exactly how

⏹️ ▶️ John it works under the covers. And I was like, oh, now I get it. But, you know, years pass

⏹️ ▶️ John and it all leaves your head and nothing sticks in there because the command line is so unintuitive and yet I still

⏹️ ▶️ John basically force myself to use the command line. I just make mistakes. And I’ve tried GitTower

⏹️ ▶️ John and the GitHub has an app. What’s the other one? There’s like a third one that’s popular on the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey SourceTree?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s one. And there’s one that’s side by side. GitBox, I think? Yeah, GitBox. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John GitBox is the other one, yeah. I have all those installed and occasionally I dive into them, but I feel wary

⏹️ ▶️ John about doing any version control stuff from the way and things like MySQL and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Command line always like, you know, the Postgres command line is great and I was spoiled by that. The MySQL command line isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John that bad. The Oracle, you know, SQL plus is the worst command line ever created by a human being.

⏹️ ▶️ John And yet still, I don’t, it’ll make you feel better by Git. If you’ve never had the

⏹️ ▶️ John pleasure to use SQL star plus or whatever the hell the weird name of that is

⏹️ ▶️ John so bad. But I mostly use the command line ones for those. And I still have the GUIs installed

⏹️ ▶️ John and we’ll fire them up occasionally. Like Oracle has SQL developer or whatever, but just

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not good GUI apps. Even if they run on the Mac, they’re usually like weird Java things or they seem weird. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the native MySQL and Postgres clients, they’re nice, but the best interface I’ve ever

⏹️ ▶️ John had to something like a database has been the Postgres command line, like better than any GUI that I’ve used. So

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So for me, I use Fish Shell for reasons I don’t even really know. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey color-coded nicely. Some of the scripting I like more because I was never

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really proficient in bash scripting or anything else. So it makes logical choices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in places where I would expect a logical choice, which is probably more about my own ignorance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of bash than anything else. I do basic command line stuff for Git

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for basic things a lot of the time. I’m probably, I would say I probably 50-50 with Git

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tower and the command line. And certainly anytime things get really wonky, I’m looking at Git

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tower because I agree with the both of you. And I’m sure we’re going to get a bunch of feedback about it, but I agree with you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that Git on the command line is really weird and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has never really clicked with me and I use Terminal App. So, TerminalApp, Phish,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and GitTower with Git on the command line from time to time. And that concludes Ask ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by audible get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at ATP audible selection of audiobooks is unmatched

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Millions of audible members access these wonderful performances by a list celebrities

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and amazing narrators You know these these are professional narrators that really bring these books to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life and in addition to audiobooks There are many audible exclusives and original

⏹️ ▶️ Marco audio shows There’s tons of time where you can fit this into your life, whether it’s on your commute every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco day, whether you’re on a train, taking long car rides, very popular with people who are taking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco walks or exercising. Audiobooks are wonderful. You can see for yourself with a free 30-day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trial and your first audiobook is free. Go to slash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP to see for yourself. I’m recently reading the book called Arbitrary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Stupid Goal by Tamara Shopson of the wonderful, famous New York Shopsin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco family. It’s so New York. I really love it. Culturally,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worldview, language, it’s just delightful if you’re really into the New York style.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So once again, Arbitrary Stupid Goal by Tamara Shopsin. It’s just great. Anyway, go to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP and you can get a free audiobook when you sign up with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a 30-day free trial at slash

Phone-to-watch notifications

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Again, thank you so much to Audible for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have a question. And I don’t really expect either of you to have an answer. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at one point, and I believe this was before I had installed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it on my watch, but I might have my details wrong. But at one point, I had my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch, or excuse me, I had my phone, I think it was like in the house upstairs far enough away that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the watch couldn’t see it. And maybe I was on a walk, maybe I was in the house on the other side of the house. We don’t have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey terribly large house, but I guess we were on opposite ends of the house from each other, whatever. But the point is my watch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was on cellular and I got a push notification from the app do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey D U E. But my watch was on cellular and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hadn’t used the app on my watch at all. At that point, I don’t believe, like, I don’t think I had installed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it on my watch. I might be wrong about that. So maybe I’ve answered my own question. But my question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is, if the watch app wasn’t installed and I got

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a due push notification, but all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the stuff that was in due was living only on the phone. Like I don’t think I had set up iCloud syncing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or anything like that. How did I get that push notification? So in summary,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the, is Apple proxying push notifications from the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the watch? Does that make sense? Because in theory, this wasn’t a push

⏹️ ▶️ Casey notification from like some server somewhere. It was from the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone itself. So it’s like the phone calling home to Apple and saying, Hey, can you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey push this notification to the watch? Because I can’t find it myself. Again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know if I really expect an answer from you guys, but it seemed wonky that I was,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it was good. It was a good thing. Don’t get me wrong, but it seemed wonky that I was getting a push notification for something I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey expect on my watch.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should have written in to ask ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Didn’t I try that once and you yelled at me to put it in the show notes? I’m pretty sure that’s what happened.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t, I don’t, Marco, I’m assuming we’ll have the best answer for this if any of us do. But the only thing I

⏹️ ▶️ John have to add is having just gone through the watch setup process when I was nuking my watch and reinstalling

⏹️ ▶️ John watchOS 3 before upgrading to 4 was I was reminded again that there’s an option somewhere in the watch app

⏹️ ▶️ John preferences that says watch mirrors notifications on phone.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Sure, sure,

⏹️ ▶️ John sure. And that would seem like doing what you said. Oh, it’s a local notification and the watch is set

⏹️ ▶️ John to mirror any notification that happens on your phone. And so it did.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but I think that’s more about the settings for notifications. So as an example, let’s take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do the app DUE. Well, okay, if you’re saying mirror what the phone settings

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are, that means just do what the phone is doing. And if that means play a sound and show it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the lock screen, then the watch will get a sound and it’ll show it just like any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other notification. If you’ve muted the notifications on the phone, then the watch would not receive those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey notifications. This is in contrast to going into the watch app on your phone and saying, no, I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do on my watch, even though I do want it on my phone. a terrible choice of examples because now I’m using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey D-U-E and D-O back to back. But hopefully you get what I’m driving at.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I think this is something different, which is it felt as though,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and somebody in the chat is saying the same thing, it felt as though there was a push notification

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was sourced from my phone that wound up on my watch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when my watch was on cellular and thus could not connect to the phone. So is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey being proxied by Apple or is there some other trickery going on or am I just playing bananas?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, thoughts? I don’t think we know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t think we do either. And I appreciate that you think I would have more information on this as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco presumably an app developer, but I don’t. It would be interesting to know whether

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the notification you received in your watch was a local notification or a remote push notification

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because you mentioned that you weren’t really sure about that. I don’t know how do works. I don’t use it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m not sure. But if it was a remote push notification, that would be easier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to figure out because like the way the way push notifications work on the app side is whenever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you say yes, you can send this device notifications when you first install the app, the app gets a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco token that I can use just like a long string that identifies that device. And when the amp is sending

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notifications from the server side, it just basically sends notification

⏹️ ▶️ Marco service like that token and then a JSON dictionary of what the notification content should be.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it would be perfectly reasonable. I don’t think the watch gets its own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey identifiers separately. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would be perfectly reasonable for the push notification service if it knows of a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch that is on LTE to just forward anything that goes to the phone’s token also to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the watch. If it’s the local notification, it’s a different story though. That’s a very different implementation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That would mean that, as you theorize, the phone would have to basically like realize it couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco contact the watch, send the local notification back up to Apple for it to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sent back over to the phone, or to the watch rather. And that’s a little bit weird when you consider

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the possibility that a phone can be paired to multiple watches. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a very complicated setup. When you’re thinking about the LTE watch, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s it sounds kind of like a checkbox of like, oh this year they added LTE.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, like done. But in practice it was probably way more complicated than that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of things like this. People are gonna expect it to just work and Apple has to figure out how to implement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever that means. And it’s you know so it wouldn’t surprise me if they actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did it. If they actually have some kind of crazy proxying system where they’re sending local notifications from the phone back up to Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then back over to the watch when connected over LTE. It actually might do that but I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it certainly seems like a lot of the stuff regarding LTE on the watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is super early and possibly even a little bit unfinished so it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn’t surprise me also if this was nothing fancy going on if it was just like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same push token being used remotely by Apple servers or the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco option is maybe it was local to your phone but that it actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did receive it already. Or it was a local notification scheduled to go at a certain time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the watch just copied that over last time it talked to the phone. So it just knew like, all right, well over the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next 24 hours or whatever I’m gonna need these notifications. And so here I’ll just copy them all over and then I’ll show them if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the phone isn’t nearby. So there are so many ways they could do this. We don’t really know how they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and that totally makes sense. And like you said, I don’t think we’re going to know unless

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little birdie reaches out, hint, hint. But it just was, it was interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me because it felt like, and I wish I had taken better notes or had paid more attention, but this like happened

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the midst of me doing something with Declan. And I took enough of a note to remind myself that I wanted to talk to you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it, but I didn’t have the time to document, you know, repro steps or anything like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyways, the point is, it just felt like the sort of thing where maybe it was being proxied by Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that was kind of cool. I mean, it was, Again, the behavior was what I wanted. It’s not like the behavior was bad. It was just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unexpected. That’s all. So we’ll see. I don’t know. We’ll figure it out one way or the other. But I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of your less fancy but also more probable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey interpretations make perfect sense to me. Who knows?

Twitterrific for Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, apparently, everything’s coming up Syracuse this week,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because that’s a reference, by the way, Twitter if it for Mac, it is back and it is out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So tell me about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s just a quick follow up people asked. I think,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey follow up, you’re in the wrong section.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know what I mean? It’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John because we asked about it and ask ATP, hey, how you’re liking the the Phoenix betas, which was the name of

⏹️ ▶️ John this application when it was testing for the Kickstarter of things. This is that whole Kickstarter that a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John people funded to get them to bring back their Mac application, which they had that language because they just weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John enough customers for it. And then the Kickstarter gave them enough money to remake the app. And so I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John been using it for a long time, and it’s great. And as I said in the last AskATP that asked about this,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m enjoying it. It’s exactly what I wanted. Now it is out for everybody to

⏹️ ▶️ John buy. It is on the Mac App Store. I think there might, let me click Is there a direct download? I don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John know. Anyway, slash Mac. The link will be in the show notes. If you’re interested in a Mac Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John client and you don’t like any of the Mac Twitter clients that are out there, check this one out. It’s got an adorable

⏹️ ▶️ John icon. The most important feature of this Twitter application as far as I’m concerned is that it has my beloved unified timeline,

⏹️ ▶️ John which gives you a list of all the tweets that are, you know, related to you. Mentions,

⏹️ ▶️ John replies, direct messages, and all the tweets from the people you follow and their RTs. Just one big

⏹️ ▶️ John long chronological timeline from the past to the future. That’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you have the other views too. Do I want to just see my mentions, direct messages, searches, all sorts of stuff. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John all there too. But the important feature is the unified timeline. And it’s just a nice Twitter client. So

⏹️ ▶️ John check it out if you’re interested. Yeah so that’s the Mac apps. Oh and the other important feature

⏹️ ▶️ John is on iOS. Twitter has always been updated on iOS and it continues to be updated because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John you know

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey more

⏹️ ▶️ John viable platform than the Mac these days and your reading position is synced

⏹️ ▶️ John between the Mac and the iOS version which is super important because every read a bunch of stuff my phone I kept my Mac I wanted to realize what I read

⏹️ ▶️ John on my phone into my one big chronological timeline and it does and it’s great and it’s got laser beams

⏹️ ▶️ John if you know where to find them. So check it out. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey awesome.

Apple TV gaming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, John, tell me about Apple TV gaming.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is from, remember the, was it the September event? Got

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco some

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff from the September event lurking down there for a long time, and I didn’t want this one to

⏹️ ▶️ John fall off the end. Do you remember they did that gaming segment in that event?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah, there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was that, that journey or whatever it is, knockoff or not knockoff,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John like another, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is it that game company, that game company made another game or something like that? I’m trying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not to offend you and I think I’m failing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I never liked the name of that company. That game company is clever initially, but then it’s like, oh, lowercase and switch.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, so this is Apple TV and gaming. We talked a lot about this before, about whether

⏹️ ▶️ John they should ship a controller with it and whether they should allow people to ship games that require

⏹️ ▶️ John a controller, which they flip-flopped on and now they’re saying yes they will. And how viable is it as a gaming platform

⏹️ ▶️ John versus things like the Switch or a real game console or PC or Mac gaming even

⏹️ ▶️ John with the steam and everything. And so here Apple is again at an important keynote

⏹️ ▶️ John spending time to talk about. It was the apple TV four K, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the gaming angle on it and they brought out on stage, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John a third party game developer, very well known in the industry because they are the makers of journey, which is a game

⏹️ ▶️ John that I love and a couple other artsy fartsy games they made before that, which they’re also bringing to Iowa. So

⏹️ ▶️ John they brought flower to Iowa which was erroneously identified as their

⏹️ ▶️ John first game, but it was not their first game. Anyway, that seems like an aside, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it factors into what I’m gonna say in a little bit about it. And this is, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John bringing out the big guns. It’s not like Nintendo was on stage. They already did that with Mario

⏹️ ▶️ John Run, I think. But it’s not like Apple buys Nintendo or

⏹️ ▶️ John Ubisoft or EA announce all their future games games will be on Apple TV or like but

⏹️ ▶️ John it is significant in that getting that game company to

⏹️ ▶️ John port their games and to make their new game which is called Sky on on Apple’s platform

⏹️ ▶️ John that only has significance for people who follow the game industry for people who are into games for most

⏹️ ▶️ John people they’ve never heard of that game company they don’t know what flower is or haven’t played

⏹️ ▶️ John Journey, like you have to be somewhat involved in the gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John industry to understand why it’s in any way impressive that Jenova Chen

⏹️ ▶️ John is up on stage for them. You don’t have to be so much in the game industry to be impressed that Miyamoto is telling you that Mario is coming to iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? I think it’s lots of name recognition there. But that game company is more obscure. And yet,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you were to get someone who knew a lot about gaming to say what’s one

⏹️ ▶️ John company you can can get on stage that will make people think that you’re getting more serious about gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John without you having to spend billions of dollars to actually buy Nintendo or convince one of the big

⏹️ ▶️ John game makers to put all their future games on your platform or whatever you could find a company

⏹️ ▶️ John that basically bankrupted itself producing journey had an exclusive contract

⏹️ ▶️ John with Sony and PlayStation which is why journey isn’t on other platforms and

⏹️ ▶️ John would be in the market to say we’re trying to start the company back up again who’s got a bunch money to dump on our heads so we’ll make our

⏹️ ▶️ John next game for their platform and I’m sure I’m sure Sony approached them because you know they

⏹️ ▶️ John made a lot of money for Sony with Journey and Flower and Flow and you know the whole nine yards and

⏹️ ▶️ John probably Microsoft approached them and here is the unlikely third

⏹️ ▶️ John suitor in Apple who has a lot of money to dump on people’s heads and for whatever reason maybe they dumped

⏹️ ▶️ John more money or maybe that game company in Genovacham were tired of dealing with Sony or Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John or you know whatever, they went with Apple and so they’re making Sky

⏹️ ▶️ John on Apple TV. Now if anyone who follows the game industry knows that exclusive platform exclusives

⏹️ ▶️ John are things that people love to announce but they’re only really exclusive

⏹️ ▶️ John in certain more extreme cases where it’s kind of a second party developer or a very

⏹️ ▶️ John tight relationship where this will never be on another platform because we’ve really tied up the rights but

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of times things are exclusive to Xbox, exclusive to PlayStation for

⏹️ ▶️ John three months, for six months, for less time than that. Timed exclusives they call them, which is like, so you mean

⏹️ ▶️ John not exclusive then, right? This is a multi-platform game, it just goes on one platform first, or it’s a multi-platform

⏹️ ▶️ John game and it ships on one three days before everything else and there’s special, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John features for that one. Anyway, I’m not clear whether it’s exclusive or exclusive, but either way,

⏹️ ▶️ John they gave enough money to help the development of this game and also money to port their old games

⏹️ ▶️ John that they were able to. Like I said, I don’t think they can port Journey because I think Sony’s got the rights to that all wrapped up, but we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, that’s, speaking of that, if Apple wants Journey, I’m sure they can give Sony a bucket full of money and they would get

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Bringing all those to Apple TV, and it’s a little bit of a head scratcher.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because like, so you’re trying to appeal to people who know what that game company is and understand

⏹️ ▶️ John what a great game journey was. But those people don’t take Apple TV seriously as a

⏹️ ▶️ John gaming platform because nobody

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey takes Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ John seriously as a gaming platform. But that’s the only announcement you’re gonna make. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the question I have about this announcement on Apple TV and gaming is like, what’s going on Apple?

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you serious? Or is this just like another, is this your carpool karaoke

⏹️ ▶️ John of gaming? Like you try to do, carpool karaoke is popular, right? people like that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, try that. Or is this your, I’m spending $2 billion and hiring

⏹️ ▶️ John all the show runners from, you know, fancy shows and, uh, that, that are successful

⏹️ ▶️ John in other networks. Like it seems like I would say that Apple still is not serious about gaming.

⏹️ ▶️ John Doesn’t understand what it takes to be a player in the gaming industry. But on the other hand, wanted to have something nice to say about

⏹️ ▶️ John gaming, or maybe like their close personal friends with Genova Chen. I don’t, I don’t even know, but it’s a mysterious

⏹️ ▶️ John announcement to me. I’m assuming Sky will be a timed exclusive and not only exclusive

⏹️ ▶️ John on Apple TV because come on, no one’s like, who’s gonna buy an Apple TV to play

⏹️ ▶️ John Sky? Some artsy fartsy gaming nerds. How many copies

⏹️ ▶️ John of Sky are they gonna sell if it literally was exclusive to iOS and Apple TV?

⏹️ ▶️ John Who knows, maybe they’ll sell tons of them. But I have to think Mario Run has way more name recognition

⏹️ ▶️ John than a game that no one’s heard of from a game developer that no one’s heard of. And even Mario Run,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, it made a lot of money, but Zelda made more. Selling a bunch of Switches made more.

⏹️ ▶️ John Hell, the NES Classic and SNES Classic probably made more. So,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I would not have predicted this. And it’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John mysterious to me, and I don’t know if I’m being biased against Apple, thinking like, oh, Apple never understands

⏹️ ▶️ John games. What do they have to do to prove to you understand games? They have to prove that they understand games. They have to prove that

⏹️ ▶️ John they know what it takes to make things that people want to play games on. And the Apple TV is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing that people want to play games on. Now I’ll play Sky on my Apple TV if that’s the only place I get it, but I would

⏹️ ▶️ John much rather play it on my PlayStation. I would rather play it on my Mac. Macs, you can’t play games on

⏹️ ▶️ John those, right Apple? As far as Apple’s concerned, you can’t. I don’t know, so

⏹️ ▶️ John I find that people are asking what I thought of it because I love Journey so much. I find it interesting, but also very

⏹️ ▶️ John frustrating, and I continue to give Apple the frowny face when it comes to gaming on Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey And the Mac for that

⏹️ ▶️ John matter, because come on, like, you know, Valve was nice enough to make Steam on the Mac, ship with good

⏹️ ▶️ John GPUs, support OpenGL better, let us play games on the Mac, but anyway, that’s all

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to say about this. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John all? Oh, that’s all.

⏹️ ▶️ John I tried to make it short, because I have deep feelings about it, but that’s as short as I can make it. Oh, and I wanted to hear,

⏹️ ▶️ John are you two going to, you’re good examples of people who don’t give a damn about that game company,

⏹️ ▶️ John and don’t really care about Journey, and you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey know, Which game company?

⏹️ ▶️ John Didn’t know the name Sky until it was announced on stage, despite the fact that they’ve spent years

⏹️ ▶️ John working on this game. I don’t remember if the name was out, but everything about the game had been discussed for a long time

⏹️ ▶️ John in gaming circles. Are you going to buy this game on your Apple TV? If you didn’t already have Apple TVs, would you

⏹️ ▶️ John buy one to play this game?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I don’t even have time to play the Switch, and you think I’m going to buy a game for the Apple TV?

⏹️ ▶️ John So you’re not going to buy this at a… Even if

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it’s like 15 bucks? Absolutely not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Absolutely not. You did buy Journey though, didn’t you?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, well, yes, I did. And I borrowed a PlayStation to play it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m glad I did. Don’t get me wrong. It was a great game. But the only way I’m going to buy and play this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey game is if I get browbeat into it from you, which is quite

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John possible. And it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John that I doubt I’m going to do that. Because really, do I want anyone playing games with like an Apple TV remote? I’m not gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John make you buy a controller Joe.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s never gonna happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess any one of mine will probably never use them again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. So I guess that means same story for you then?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So when I saw Apple TV Gaming Sky in the show notes document,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had forgotten what that even was. So impactful, that announcement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not a huge game nerd or even gamer at all. I am currently very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much enjoying Stardew Valley, but I tend to really enjoy like one game a year

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe and then that’s it. so I really would not still call myself a gamer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure it’s going to be interesting to gamers. If you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco come on here and tell me, like, you have to play this game, I’ll play it, I’ll buy it, I’ll play it, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that would be the only reason I would do it. The Apple TV, as much as I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanted it to be a gaming platform when the fourth gen came out and when the App Store for it launched and everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just hasn’t panned out. and Apple has done pretty much nothing to help that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They still, they modified the rules so that games now can at least require

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a controller if it just is not gonna work with the Siri remote. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there are so many reasons why people don’t even think of the Apple TV as a gaming platform and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re gonna have to go out and spend 50 bucks on a controller to make it one, no one’s gonna do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the fact is, no matter how hard Apple tries to make it a gaming platform,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which honestly doesn’t seem like they’re trying that hard, but if they are trying, it’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco futile until it comes with a type of remote that can be used as a controller

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasonably well in the box. And I don’t think that’s ever gonna happen. So as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco long as that’s still not gonna be the case, like no one’s gonna go out there and buy an extra controller for 50 bucks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just to play the very small handful of decent games that are available for the Apple TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John So Apple has actually done a bunch of stuff in service of gaming, which is the mysterious

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. Like all the stuff they’re doing with Metal and all their WDC sessions and all their sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John toolkits for making sprite-based and 3D games, like they’re doing a lot of work and it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t understand how games are made in the rest of the industry. Like nobody’s gonna use all their

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty impressive proprietary frameworks and stuff to make really

⏹️ ▶️ John good performing games on Apple TV anyway. Maybe on iOS they’re more motivated because you can sell a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot of games if you get the right one on iOS. But on Apple TV, like, the only thing they’re going to do

⏹️ ▶️ John is like, the best thing they’ve done is say, okay, well, we made sure that Unity has support for Metal and all this other

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. Like the various game engines and the Unreal Engine and all that stuff have reasonable support for the

⏹️ ▶️ John underlying frameworks. But they’re putting money into it. And it’s like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John hard to tell, is it like, oh, this is mostly just for phone games, because people make a lot of money on phone games, and by

⏹️ ▶️ John the way, it happens to also benefit Apple TV. Because if you’re trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John compete in the games market, you have to do what the other companies do who have gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John platforms. You have to court talent and develop talent and get people to make games for

⏹️ ▶️ John your system and make sure that multi-platform games are available on your system, unless your name’s Nintendo, which, and you have tons of

⏹️ ▶️ John first-party properties apparently keep your company alive forever despite not doing a good job courting third-party

⏹️ ▶️ John success because you keep making less powerful hardware. But anyway, you have to do, you have to put in a lot of work.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s kind of like what they’re doing with TV. You have to hire the right people and they have to go get the actors and the stories and like

⏹️ ▶️ John it is a lot of work to compete in the gaming industry. You can’t just say here’s the hardware and

⏹️ ▶️ John we you know gave some money to Jenova Chen so here’s one cool game and like if you build

⏹️ ▶️ John it they won’t come. Like you have to to go get them. You have to do all the things that Sony and Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John do and Nintendo even, you know, to some degree do in this market.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or, you know, if you want to be like Nintendo, make a bunch of amazing first party games that are just system sellers on

⏹️ ▶️ John their own. And but and they don’t have the back catalog for that anyway. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s frustrating to me because every time I see all the gaming sessions, WBC, I’m impressed by what I see.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I can’t map that to like Apple TV gaming. It’s all even though

⏹️ ▶️ John they talk about it and they put a powerful GPU and the Apple TV and they say it’s a platform for gaming.

⏹️ ▶️ John It just it just seems like a way for you to make phone games, which is fine. That’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John one area where they have a little bit of swale. Even phone games use third party engines for a lot of stuff. But Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV is just doesn’t seem to be going anywhere, which is I don’t know. It’s almost Also I wish they would just

⏹️ ▶️ John like not keep making these sort of half-hearted efforts and instead

⏹️ ▶️ John just admit that Apple TV isn’t a gaming platform. Now all that said, well before we finally leave this topic, one thing I will suggest

⏹️ ▶️ John is that Flower, which is an older game made by that game company,

⏹️ ▶️ John is actually a really good fit for iOS and for Apple TV because it’s entirely motion

⏹️ ▶️ John controlled. Or I’m assuming it is, it was in the PlayStation. So even with the Apple TV remote,

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t have to touch any buttons, you just tilt the remote forward and back and side. I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know, I haven’t actually tried it with the Apple TV remote, but I’m saying if anything is going to be reasonably playable with that terrible remote,

⏹️ ▶️ John or just on a phone or something, an entirely motion controlled game is. And Flower is fine, it’s cute, it’s a nice

⏹️ ▶️ John game. If you’re not really into games and just want something pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John to look at and a fun activity that actually does build to something towards the end if you play through the whole game. I would

⏹️ ▶️ John recommend downloading the Port of Flower. It is actually a good fit for all of Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John platforms, unlike so many other games that just don’t work without a controller, like

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco said. So I’ll play Sky and tell you how it is. Thanks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thanks for our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Audible, and Fracture.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will see you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they didn’t even mean to begin, cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh it was accidental. John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental. And you can find the

⏹️ ▶️ John show notes at And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can follow them At

⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A-N-T-Marco-Armen S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental They didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental Accidental Tech Podcasts So

⏹️ ▶️ John long

Post-show: Neutral

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re looking at that expensive Volvo? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I knew it was a thing, but I’d never really read that much into it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Still an SUV, so who cares?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, sometimes you want, sometimes, John, you want space.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a thing. If only there was a way to get space without making it really tall.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and how are you going to do that, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A large sedan, a hatchback, a wagon, a crossover, a minivan.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s all sorts of ways

⏹️ ▶️ John to do this. No crossovers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And many of Anna’s acceptable answer. Hatchback is not. Crossover is not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not enough room in a Rolls Royce, you need to make the entire vehicle 20 feet high.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes. Ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, the problem is that, okay, sure, John, I’ll buy the $300,000 Rolls Royce just to avoid the $50,000 lifted car.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A Mercedes S-Class,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s not like you need to make an SUV to have room in a car. Yeah, have you seen how

⏹️ ▶️ John much room there’s in my car? We don’t like SUVs. And Casey, you don’t like SUVs either, But

⏹️ ▶️ John you have one now, so you feel compelled to defend the form

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you shouldn’t. There’s some modicum of that that is true, without question. However,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really like Aaron’s car a lot. I really honestly

⏹️ ▶️ John do. You just like nice cars, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey if

⏹️ ▶️ John it was a nice sedan, you would like it a lot too.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, yes. And I have sat in a stationary, what the hell is it called? An S90?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Basically her car, but low. And it’s eerie because it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feels on the inside exactly the same until you look past the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey second row, because obviously Aaron’s car is third row. But anyway, in so many ways, it feels the same, like the same infotainment,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey same cushiness, et cetera, et cetera. The car is like 300 feet long,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t know. It just feels wonky to me when it’s that low. I think because I was exposed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the XC90 as a SUV. Although it’s funny because to kind of parlay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this into something, that’s not the right word, use the word, but whatever, to turn this into something, to pivot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into something else, I am taking the BMW in a couple of weeks for state inspection

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for an airbag recall, maybe, if they actually have one in stock. And I had to put a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little coolant in the car, which in and of itself is not that remarkable, but it’s the first time I’ve had to do it. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I asked them to, you you know, hey, just go ahead and make sure this thing isn’t about to explode, which means they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to find a reason why it’s about to explode and this will be another $5,000 bill. Well, anyway, I bring

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all this up because a sales dude called me and said, oh, I see you’re bringing your car in a couple of weeks. Yes, I am.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Would you, is there something I could do to put you in a new BMW? To which I just laughed and laughed and laughed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and laughed. So I said to him, I’ll put $15,000 in this car in five years. There’s no way I’m buying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey another BMW.

⏹️ ▶️ John He probably believed you as much as we do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’m not buying a BMW.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mostly no you’re gonna buy something faster, but worse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Probably that actually to be honest that is an extremely accurate assessment if I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey end up with the golf car

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because everything that you’ve said that you are really wanting is like faster, but worse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know correct at least that you would actually buy like the quadra fuck go gleo or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever It was like that one like might that might overall be better depending on the transmission severity,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but yeah But you won’t you won’t you wouldn’t actually buy that one, correct?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still I still continue to read all sorts of bad stories about reliability for for test fleet cars

⏹️ ▶️ John for like, you know Car magazines and they usually get the good ones. So I would yeah, although I like a Marcos

⏹️ ▶️ John Most recent mispronunciation because it contains fugly in it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s a beautiful car it’s a beautiful car I will I will thank you are wrong John you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are wrong Is your given name John or Jonathan? It’s John, isn’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s an ugly car. Sorry. It seems like a great car. It seems like it’s unreliable

⏹️ ▶️ John and I do not like how it looks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I mean, first of all, you can tell it’s John instead of Jonathan because there’s an H and he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Italian. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably somebody out there who spells Jonathan with the H, but I’m sure it’s very, very rare. And second of all, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no Italian Jonathan’s. They’re all Johns. That’s true. And then second of all, third of all, whatever number I’m up to now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco D. I would say that the Quadrifoglio is probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco significantly more attractive than the current generation of BMW M cars.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope. I would say it is more attractive. I don’t know if I would say it’s considerably more attractive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So my product communications person from Alfa Romeo North America wrote me today.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John We all have one of those.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God that sounded extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John self-involved. Product

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Communications.

⏹️ ▶️ John Wow. What a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco title. My My product communications from South America never writes me at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John What a jerk.

⏹️ ▶️ John So they talk to you about products. It’s like, I want to communicate with you about products.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’m a product communicator.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is not where I wanted this to go. And I recognize that this is exactly what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I

⏹️ ▶️ John deserve. I never, that’s a hell of a title.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s exactly what I deserve.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, what did I call him? A product communication specialist or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John whatever? I already forgot. I closed the email. Yeah, I closed the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey email and I forgot too. So anyway, so I’ve been bothering him constantly because the people that actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have the car don’t want to talk to me apparently. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t believe they’re not flying you to Europe to try to stick. And by the way, the chat rooms out that you should ask them

⏹️ ▶️ John for the SUV since that’s what you like.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Is they may

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, kindly kiss the widest part of my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John well, you know, that

⏹️ ▶️ John seems to be what you’re into. It might seem weird when it’s when it was down so low might seem weird.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I hate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you so much. You know what? Well, actually,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, what’s worse? Did I have this conversation with you guys on the show? I don’t think I did. The worst part of this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that I’ve decided my shortlist for my next car. Obviously, Golf R. There

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are two other options. I would like you to guess, either one of you, what those other two options are. Honda Accord.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John No.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Although, I will look

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You will look at it. It’s too slow. It’s too slow. No. The other option is going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Cadillac Rectangle thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey No. Good guess, but no. No?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. No. It’s automatic only.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, OK.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All three of these cars, all three of these cars I can get with a stick brand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new. All right, so Golf R, it’s probably not the Jeep Grand Cherokee, whatever it was that you reviewed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John can’t get that one with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey a stick.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. No.

⏹️ ▶️ John Hmm, what the hell’s, I don’t know, other stick, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John not an Audi,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m gonna say, since you have SUV envy, and there aren’t that many SUVs available with a stick, I’m gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco guess maybe a Jeep Wrangler, because those I think are available with a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stick. That is one of the three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco cars.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes! That is the, I’m not kidding by the way, I’m not kidding. That is my, I am abandoning

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all pretense of luxury. I am abandoning all thoughts of speed and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey comfort and screw it. I’m just going to go the other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John direction. I’m going to get

⏹️ ▶️ John a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey golf cart. What are you doing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, all kidding aside, as much as I love to beat up on you too, have you ever been either

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of you in a Jeep Wrangler that has the top off or down and does not have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John doors

⏹️ ▶️ John on it? No, I understand that. That’s why I said a golf cart. It’s fun to drive a golf cart too.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, and does not have doors on it. That’s the key. The fact that you can just take the doors right off is amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great fun. You know, there has never been a time when I’ve been sitting in a car and thought, you know, this car needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fewer doors. That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John has never happened.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the feeling, like, you know, when I used to work at the parks department, they had a lot of vehicles that were basically

⏹️ ▶️ John this, you know, like old trucks or, what is it, the brand Cushman or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like

⏹️ ▶️ John big four by fours that you basically sit on, kind of,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it’s fun to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco do it,

⏹️ ▶️ John but that’s not a car. Obviously if you live anywhere with weather, that is a no-go. And

⏹️ ▶️ John even if you don’t, you’re just tempting death. Like, why not get a super bike?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You wanna get closer to the pavement, here you go.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’ll just get myself a, what’s the ridiculous one that they always turbocharge? Oh God,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m drawing a blank now. Hayabusa, there it is. I’ll just get a Hayabusa and I’ll be fine. So okay, so you got one of the three.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, two of the three, actually, because I gave you the Golf R.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh man, so John, what else is available BMW 2 series it’s available.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a BMW

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I it should be it should be the 2 series, but it’s not I need I need

⏹️ ▶️ John more spouty makes a forest with

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco sticks I do they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but there it is there it is because you enjoyed your your renting of the silver one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I did although the MMI which is their knockoff iDrive used to be Abysmally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad not as bad as the Jeep, but really bad But that being said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they supposedly have a new one and you can get the A4 with a stick. And it has all the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fancy, like, you know, digital dash that I’m sure John hates. And it has CarPlay.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t hate digital dashes. Oh, you mean like the instrument cluster in front of

⏹️ ▶️ John you behind the steering wheel, right? Correct. Correct.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t hate that. Oh, well, I’m surprised. But anyway, so it has all that jazz.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, but see, I think I will still be correct that what you’ll be getting will be faster

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but worse. Although actually if you get an Audi it might not be faster.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey It would not be fa-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well, probably not. It depends on how well I can drive my car.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco To me, like, my experience with Audis and looking at them and test driving them and having, you know, occasional friends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that have them and stuff, it just seems like it’s like BMW, but everything looks a little bit better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and works a little bit worse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In my limited experience with Audi, I would agree with that

⏹️ ▶️ John wholeheartedly. The outside of them look pretty good on some of them, though. Yes. Their

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey styling is- It looks a little bit better. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, that’s what mark was saying and and I think that’s a fair assessment

⏹️ ▶️ John because the Audi’s interior styling people usually like to I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think either way in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco or out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think they’re they’re a safer bet

⏹️ ▶️ John visually You should try to try the s8 and when you’re the Honda

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey dealership Not a

⏹️ ▶️ John stick try and you don’t can’t get the not the s8 the s4 you can get this

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for the camera

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope, not anymore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How do you makes very few sticks?

⏹️ ▶️ John You should when you’re the Honda dealership You should also test drive the Civic type R which I know you’re not gonna get because it looks like a matchbox car

⏹️ ▶️ John but you should just try it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway. I would love to. Actually, everything you just said is absolutely correct. And I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey definitely give the new Accord a shot. In all snark and jokes aside, as much as I love

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to give you a hard time about your love of Accords, I am really impressed by, just on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey paper, having never seen one in person, having never driven one, I’m really impressed by the new Accord. And I think Honda’s finally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey making smart choices, which by that I mean choices that make Casey happy. They’re making

⏹️ ▶️ Casey smart choices with the new Accord, making it available with the big motor, with a stick, etc. etc.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The review that I shared with you and I don’t remember where it was. So I’m not going to put in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That was not a terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it might have been it was not terribly flattering, but I still stand by this is the first time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve looked at in a court and thought, you know what that’s a possibility and for everyone saying s3

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and rs3 in the chat. Those are not available with a stick in the US unless I’m mistaken and either way. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not really sure what I’m gaining over a golf are I need to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey break myself with a golf thing, a golf

⏹️ ▶️ Marco R. The Audi 3 Series is, you know, really minimal gains, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lots of price increases over the high-end golf series. Like, it’s really, like, cause it’s just, it’s just a luxury

⏹️ ▶️ Marco golf. That’s all it is. Yep. And it’s not, I don’t feel like you’re getting what you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco paying for necessarily with that one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why aren’t you getting a jury generation Cayman? That’s better than all these cars that you’ve just described.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want something that I can hypothetically put two children

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John in, and a wife. No you don’t, no you don’t. don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want you have this giant school bus for the kids.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John such a jerk. You do you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey have

⏹️ ▶️ John this giant vehicle that can hold like your kids and neighbor kids for you for your car just get a

⏹️ ▶️ John used Cayman and it’s better than all the cars you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listed. Yeah. Although talk about maintenance. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey there’s that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So how much is the Cayman? Seriously? It could be worse than the BMW. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah. Before they turbocharged it, the one that the one that Jerry got. That’s the generation you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want. I know exactly what you’re thinking of what what years that I don’t know Porsche

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John shows well enough

⏹️ ▶️ John to know. I don’t know. Just go back through Jerry’s timeline and see when he started posting pictures

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of his car. Probably what, like three years ago or something?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, three years ago or something before they changed the name to 718 and turbocharged. OK, here you go. So I’m looking on

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey AutoTrader.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Coincidentally, just as you’re saying that, model name clarification.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How quickly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can you look things up on AutoTrader? Fairly quickly. Is it like a dedicated hardware key on your keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that just immediately launches AutoTrader and opens it up to a search? I feel like if I was ever to give a serious

⏹️ ▶️ Marco look at a Porsche Porsche, however it’s not some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apologize if I were to ever give a serious look at that brand, it would take me like three weeks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of research to just figure out what the hell I’m looking at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John because there are so many like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tiny little name variations

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco add or subtract 30 grand. I know. Wait, what? What is that? And that’s is it that much better? What does that mean? And

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, but but but with the came in at this generation, like even the one with the slow at the cheap one with the slow

⏹️ ▶️ John engine is still a great car. Yeah, like there’s no, there’s nothing, you know, and it’s just a question of how much do you want to get ripped off

⏹️ ▶️ John for the fancy schmancy one and how many

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey thousands of dollars

⏹️ ▶️ John and in fact it might be a mistake to like oh I accidentally got the one with carbon ceramic brakes because they’re kind of annoying in daily use and

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not going to be on a racetrack and that would be a bad move but you can tell because it’ll be an an extra 20 grand in the price.