Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

234: Everybody Has Asterisks

The #askatp Q&A episode!

Episode Description:

Sponsored by:

  • Betterment: Investing made better.
  • Warby Parker: Boutique-quality, vintage-inspired glasses at a revolutionary price. Try up to five pairs at home for free.
  • Squarespace: Make your next move with a beautiful website. Use code ATP for 10% off your first order.

MP3 Header

Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Intro: #askatp
  2. Why no more toaster reviews?
  3. What cameras do we use?
  4. Cleaning out /Applications
  5. Which ad blocker?
  6. Sponsor: Warby Parker
  7. Higher-resolution iTunes music?
  8. Whose setup would we use?
  9. When to replace an Accord?
  10. What does John like?*
  11. Podcast recommendations
  12. State of Swift
  13. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  14. Women-in-tech progress
  15. Next iPhone dealbreakers?
  16. Tabs or spaces?
  17. Low-level Apple stack wishes?
  18. Sponsor: Betterment
  19. How are Overcast ads doing?
  20. Subscription fatigue
  21. Noise-canceling AirPods
  22. Top Swift wishes?
  23. Arcade-game nostalgia?
  24. Neutral season 2?
  25. Would an iOS laptop be viable?
  26. Podcast payment middlemen?
  27. What streaming services do we use?
  28. Mac Plus over Apple IIgs
  29. How did we meet?
  30. Do we tape our webcams?
  31. Happy with Go?
  32. How did T-shirts go?
  33. Why does Marco read the ads?
  34. Explaining John’s bagel love
  35. Ending theme
  36. Post-show: Zelda progress?

Intro: #askatp

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When we last saw our heroes, they were doing all the things they normally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do. But today they do something different. This is the Q&A episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So it is still in ATP time, Friday the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 4th of August, but most of you listening are probably listening somewhere on or around the 9th of August.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And we did this because as we covered last episode, we didn’t plan our vacations well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In any case. So yeah, we’re going to do a Q&A episode. So we had solicited had being the keyword

⏹️ ▶️ Casey solicited questions via Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Are you telling our audience to please stop asking questions now? Is that what that means? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can certainly continue to ask questions, but we are not planning another Q&A episode for at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a year. So You can ask but they’re pretty much going into the ether

⏹️ ▶️ John But what about the ask ATP segment that we’re gonna add to the show?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I I would I would like to keep the questions Going

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco oh, I mean they don’t have to be as many

⏹️ ▶️ John questions because we’re answer like two of them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, the hosts have spoken. We have a-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So

⏹️ ▶️ John just two or three people ask a question every week.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You figure it out amongst yourselves. You coordinate. And then-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, fair enough. So we are going to do this in quasi-chronological

⏹️ ▶️ Casey order. We have selected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John questions- That’s a terrible idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because of this, here’s the thing. They were going into the spreadsheet, but I was afraid if I tried to sort them that it would mess with

⏹️ ▶️ John the automated, I don’t know, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey We’re going to go from

⏹️ ▶️ John top to bottom in this document.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I think it’s… You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can’t save. The document you can’t save.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it turns out that adding every single tweet with this hashtag

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a giant spreadsheet and having no way to filter or upvote or sort

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them at all might not be the best tool for this job, it turns out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well I am happy for you to coordinate the replacement, my friend,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because this seems like the lowest impact way to me. I agree with you it is not ideal, but it’s the lowest impact

⏹️ ▶️ Casey version I got.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Are we supposed to be using things like Reddit? Is that a thing? Are we supposed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be doing that? Oh yeah, that is what the Reddits are for, isn’t it? No,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re not supposed to be doing that. All right,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s question number one answered. All

⏹️ ▶️ John right. All

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that said,

⏹️ ▶️ John if anyone on this show or off this show wants to make a replacement that’s better than this spreadsheet,

⏹️ ▶️ John I will endorse it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It would be, we probably should have some way to like upvote or downvote, and some way for one of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the admins, which would be us, to say, all right, this question, we’re just not gonna answer, so just kill it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but unlike Reddit, I’m not sure this needs to be publicly accessible, but whatever. All

⏹️ ▶️ John right, let’s do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so the show notes for this episode may or may not exist. We’ll see what happens. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it’s basically just a bunch of questions and answers. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m just gonna try to emcee this and do the best I can with names, with questions, et cetera.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And we’re going to dig in.

Why no more toaster reviews?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Gulick, who asks, Hey, why no more toaster reviews, John?

⏹️ ▶️ John The toaster reviews were a sponsorship, believe it or not. I know you don’t remember that, but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey they weren’t just like, Hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John review a bunch of toasters. It’s actually ads for Cards Against Humanity, but instead of an ad read, they wanted me to do toaster

⏹️ ▶️ John reviews. So they are not advertising, quote unquote, advertising

⏹️ ▶️ John on the show anymore. They don’t have any other campaigns. So that’s why there’s no more toaster reviews. And if they did, they wouldn’t do toasters again. So

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not gonna get any more toaster reviews

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we have had many people suggest new things that we could have a series

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of reviews for and honestly none of them sounded as funny as that like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was such a great thing it had a wonderful progression it ended I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it could have continued indefinitely I think it was pretty much done when it ended and every other suggestion we’ve seen since

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then has been less funny so yeah we nobody has tackled anything more than that and I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they it probably won’t happen at least in that format

⏹️ ▶️ John and those suggestions weren’t from sponsors right though sponsorship is the key part of the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t think we would

⏹️ ▶️ John have endured like in the middle of a tech podcast let’s talk about toasters for five minutes unless it was a sponsorship

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah like and I think one of the one of the funniest things about that was like you know cards against humanity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I and we later came to learn that the person who was organizing all this there was Alex Cox now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Dubai Friday fame so And like, they really…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They weren’t just sending random toasters. There was a clear progression, like getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from the normal ones slowly into the really bizarre and crazy and horrible things, like those big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco breakfast stations that could make the egg on top and stuff like that. It was clearly in this wonderful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco progression that it was just so well done. And you gotta

⏹️ ▶️ Marco give Cards Against Humanity credit for that incredible run.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, completely agree with you.

What cameras do we use?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Kathy Wise writes in, what cameras are you using now? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I will begin, I’m using the same camera that we got shortly before Declan was born. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an Olympus OM-D E-M10, which is a truly terrible name. It is a Micro Four Thirds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey camera. I have a prime lens for it. That is what I use generally speaking.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you remember from the last episode, which in ATP time happened about 15 minutes ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also have a zoom lens, which I actually quite like. And I was going to argue with you, Marco, when you were

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying, oh, you can’t get a zoom lens that, you know, covers all three parts of the triangle, if you will.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But as you were talking, you had mentioned, well, you know, if you do have a decent zoom

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lens, that means it’s exorbitantly expensive and still probably has some other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey concessions. And that is the case for me. The zoom lens I have was like $800 or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And otherwise it’s very nice. It’s F 2.8. I think it’s 100 to 300

⏹️ ▶️ Casey millimeters in regular cameras. I forget what it is in a micro four-thirds. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, I like it a lot, but it was very expensive. Marco, what are you using?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am mostly using my iPhone, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sad, but that is the reality of it. We do have the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 5D Mark IV now in our family. we had for years, ever since they came

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, we had the 5D Mark II, which came out, I think, in 2007 or 2008, something like that. And, oh, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was late 2008. And so, we had that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since then, and it was great, but it was getting long in the tooth in a lot of different ways. And so, for a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco while, I had a Sony Phase, because the Sony A series of cameras,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first I had the little RX1, then I had the A7R II, And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco those are awesome cameras in a lot of ways. But I found, I’ll make it brief because we’ve talked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about this before, I have found that I generally prefer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the speed and handling and battery life of full-sized SLRs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the little Sony mirrorless cameras. And I think over time that will probably eventually change back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the little Sonys get better. You know, the A9 has now come out and it solves some of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems I had. it makes certain things worse. So maybe there will be an A7R

⏹️ ▶️ Marco III at some point, or an A9 Mark II or something like that, that I might go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back for, but for now I’m very happy in the world of big Canon SLRs when I need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fancy photos. But I take fancy photos less and less every year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My wife takes them much more often, and she is way, way better of a photographer than I am.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So most of the good pictures of our family and stuff, taken by her

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so that kind of frees me up to do mostly the casual stuff. So that’s I’m shooting mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my iPhone if I shoot anything at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still using my Sony a6300 I thought of trading in for a6500 that was right up until I

⏹️ ▶️ John saw that the battery life was slightly worse and that really much did it for me because the battery life in 6300 is

⏹️ ▶️ John just barely enough like I have two batteries and on vacation I never needed to swap

⏹️ ▶️ John the batteries even on a day at the ocean but I come close and I don’t think I can give up that whatever 10% battery life

⏹️ ▶️ John And the 6500 is more expensive and so I’ve never I’ve never done the swap.

⏹️ ▶️ John I still looking at it I’m still you know I would still recommend the 6500 or the 6300 as long as you can

⏹️ ▶️ John deal with the battery life But be sure that you can because that’s that’s a big quality of life issue. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m happy with that The only new lens I got recently was that is that big zoom. I forget which one it

⏹️ ▶️ John is, but it’s one of the Sony ones it’s not it’s not a very good lens like whatever. It’s what is

⏹️ ▶️ John it a uh, 55 to 300. So it’s a pretty big range again,

⏹️ ▶️ John adjusting for what that is on a APC sensor. It’s not, you know, those are the full frame numbers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Still like my 50 millimeter prime the best. I have my own super expensive zoom that does 16

⏹️ ▶️ John to 70 and there’s over $1,000 and that is my sort of general all purpose

⏹️ ▶️ John lens that I keep on the thing. It’s not as good as the 50 prime, uh, and it doesn’t zoom as long as the big zoom,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s kind of a nice all around her and to get a reasonable okay all-arounder, a thousand bucks.

⏹️ ▶️ John So, yeah.

Cleaning out /Applications

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed, also from Kathy Wise, did the last show, which was actually two shows ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m doing this mental math right, shame you into clearing out your application folders? No, it did not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ John John, Not only did it not shame me into cleaning out my application folder, but I realized after we finished that show that I was

⏹️ ▶️ John just looking at slash applications. I also have a tilde slash applications with

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey way more things in

⏹️ ▶️ John it, way more things in it, which is that’s like an old, an old school next early Mac OS

⏹️ ▶️ John X error thing of having an applications folder in your home directory, which you could totally have and the OS knows about

⏹️ ▶️ John it and gives it the little a icon, but only weird people do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, moving on.

Which ad blocker?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oplez asks, which ad blocker did Marco choose?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was for a long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time… As soon as I killed Peace,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco within a month or two, I stopped using it too. Just to be fair, it felt

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrong for me to use it and no one else did. I switched to OneBlocker back then.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OneBlocker is fine. I don’t have really much bad to say about it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or much great to say about it. If you’re going to go with one of those mass market blockers, one blocker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the time I looked was the best one. I have noticed that over time more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and more sites are broken by it. There was one of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iOS 11 betas where it was not working due to some limits

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that had changed. So I went looking and I started using Better, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a paid app, I think it’s like five bucks. They have a Mac version and an iOS version, which is nice, and the Mac version

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of keeps itself up to date, which is nice with this little menu bar extra thing. So I’ve been trying Better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. It doesn’t seem to block as much stuff as OneBlocker, but it also doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco break as many sites and it seems to block enough that works for me and it seems to get regular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco updates. So right now I’m using Better, but I’ve only been using it for maybe a few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weeks at most, So it’s hard for me to really say you should definitely go buy this. But if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco looking to buy something right now, that’s the one I would start with.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, any thoughts? I also use OneBlocker for the record, but John, any thoughts?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m also using OneBlocker, but occasionally, I don’t know if the OS updates it or something,

⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes it gets turned off and I don’t notice for a while. I don’t have a good blocker situation going on.

⏹️ ▶️ John And half the time when things don’t work, I do the little long hold down on the reload to reload without

⏹️ ▶️ John blockers

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to see if that’s the problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think some sites are getting more obnoxious. One, I think the Boston Globe is like, you’re running an

⏹️ ▶️ John ad blocker, I don’t like you, whatever. And it’s like, all right, well, fine. You’re gonna learn not to even tap those links.

⏹️ ▶️ John And some site, I think it was like the Atlantic or something like that is like, sorry, something is wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John and we can’t serve you ads. And so I reload without content blockers and it says the same thing. Like, well, what do you want me to do?

⏹️ ▶️ John Or like, you’re running an incognito mode. I was like, I’m not, I’m not an incognito mode. I’m just on my phone and I want to read your website

⏹️ ▶️ John and I turn everything off and you still and the worst thing is it does it with like a sheet that goes down over the actual

⏹️ ▶️ John article and you just want to like right click and inspect and delete

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey node but you can’t because you’re on your phone. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John this is when Casey occasionally goes off on his little angry rants about how he

⏹️ ▶️ John feels constrained by iOS. I have that in small degrees too and it’s basically whenever I do anything on a

⏹️ ▶️ John web page and I realize I don’t have access to my web developer tools and I feel just just completely crippled.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like it’s just stupid web. It’s just a freaking div. Let me delete it. Like I just saw the articles right there.

⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s what I do. This is what I literally do to find out if I want to actually read the article. I do long

⏹️ ▶️ John press to read the slug in the URL, hoping that it’s something sensible. But sometimes it’s not. Or

⏹️ ▶️ John repeatedly revisit the page and try to read the headline before the stupid thing slides down on it. Like I get, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John three words and oh, it slid down. And then I reload three words and just to find out, is this a story that I want to bother going

⏹️ ▶️ John to a quote unquote, real web browser and, you know, looking

⏹️ ▶️ John at or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Anyway, websites are annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You guys try way too hard to read. If a site makes it difficult for me to read an article,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just close it and I move on. Because you know what? No matter how good of a writer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you are or no matter how great of journalists you are or whatever else, there’s a lot of things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to read out there on the web. And if you’re going to make it hard for me to read yours, I’m just not going to read it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that might be like if you have a site with anti-adblocker blocker thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you won’t let me read the site with an ad blocker, that’s fair game. I respect that decision

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of yours, but that means I’m not going to turn off my ad blocker, I’m just not going to read it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if that’s the option you presented, then fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I’m saying. I’m willing, like, oh, I’ve detected you have an ad blocker. Fine, I will turn

⏹️ ▶️ John off my ad blocker. I’ll turn it off. I’ll be like, reload without content blockers. Here I am. I’m ready

⏹️ ▶️ John to see your thing. It’s not behind a paywall. It’s not like they want me to sign up, subscribe, or pay money. Like there is no,

⏹️ ▶️ John the site is just broken is what I’m saying. I think it’s a pretty well-known site. Maybe it’s the Atlantic or whatever. It’s like, I’m doing everything

⏹️ ▶️ John you want me to do. Turn off all my blockers, turn them off in settings, not be in incognito mode,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no paywall, you’re not asking me to sign up or subscribe, you just, every time I try to load it, it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John sorry, I couldn’t figure out something and I’m gonna put a big, I’m gonna slide a big animated sheet down

⏹️ ▶️ John over the article that’s perfectly good, and there’s no reader mode for people asking, there’s no, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John websites, man. Like do you ever test on the iPhone? It’s a popular platform. Get it?”

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Higher-resolution iTunes music?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thank you very much to Warby Parker for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Jack Johnson, yes, from New York City apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has two questions that are related. Do you think it would be a good move for iTunes to offer a higher resolution

⏹️ ▶️ Casey audio file for download or streaming? And then kind of tangentially related, do you think part

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the HEVC strategy is to set the groundwork for 4K streaming?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will say that I don’t think anyone really cares, except Marco, about higher resolution audio

⏹️ ▶️ Casey coming out of iTunes and… I don’t. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t even care about that. I’m surprised. So, as for all my, like, audiophile-ness when it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comes to, like, selecting headphones and stuff, I have never been swayed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by, like, higher-than-CD-quality audio files or lossless compression

⏹️ ▶️ Marco schemes. I know a lot of people like these. A lot of people think they can hear a difference. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you can, but I know for sure that I can’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hold on, though. Hold on. How do you download your Phish concerts? MP3.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They offer Flack options. I am stunned. That’s what I assumed you were going to say. No, they offer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Flack for a few more dollars. And there is… So I have bought… So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quick background here. Phish sells all their live shows legally through their own site, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a few hours after the show’s end. And so you can buy a season pass and you can basically have downloads

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of every show they do for like a whole tour. So I do this. I’ve been doing this since something like 2009 or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so. And there was one tour early on that I bought in Flack.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I pre-ordered it and I’m like, gosh, let me get the Flack version. I’ll see if it sounds any different. And it was such

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pain because, first of all, iTunes didn’t support Flack at the time. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it actually is finally adding that in High Sierra, I think, but it didn’t at the time. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had all these massive files that, first of all, I didn’t want to ever delete them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because, well, I paid for these massive files. So they’re taking up tons of space in the hard drive that I still had to transcode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to make them actually playable in anything. I did play the original

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones or there was, let’s see, I think one time I transcoded them to ALAC or maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I downloaded, maybe they sold them as ALAC, I forget. But so I did, for a group of them,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco transfer them and play them as lossless files as a lack files in iTunes and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just I couldn’t tell any difference at all and there’s there’s lots of again there’s lots of people who claim

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to can they can hear a difference there’s a whole lot of tests that have been done that have shown mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco otherwise but this is one of those things kind of like my subwoofer thing from last episode of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do things my way and some people consider them insufficient or some people want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better things and I think I’m just I don’t I can’t care anymore like if you want to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things your own way if you want to get massive files with 2496 or 24182 sample rates and if you want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have lossless encoding and you want your albums to take up a gig

⏹️ ▶️ Marco each, fine. It’s hard drive space is cheap. Do whatever you want.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I could not possibly agree with you more, but I was expecting to snicker as you told me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about how FLAC is the only answer. So kudos to you, sir. I am stunned.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you want audio that’s lower quality and has like hiss and pop in it?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey No. Here we go.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Here we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John go.

⏹️ ▶️ John Something for Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, yeah, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s not the right move for Apple to offer higher resolution

⏹️ ▶️ John audio, but if Apple ever gets to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the point,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think they will because again, streaming is what everyone cares about now, as Marco pointed out earlier slash on the

⏹️ ▶️ John last show, but it would be a way to make the Ferrari

⏹️ ▶️ John of purchasable downloadable music. can we charge more money for something that people perceive as better?

⏹️ ▶️ John The answer is yes, you can. You sell lossless or a higher bitrate or some combination

⏹️ ▶️ John thereof, and a very small number of people who think that is worthwhile for them will buy it. It doesn’t really

⏹️ ▶️ John matter if anyone can hear the difference. It only matters whether they’ll give you money in exchange for these goods which are able to be produced.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I wouldn’t totally rule it out. I don’t think it’s something Apple needs to do at all. But someday,

⏹️ ▶️ John if buying music at all downloadable continues to be a thing. Some smart person in

⏹️ ▶️ John marketing may say we’re leaving money on the table by not selling high resolution audio.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they’ll just do it and charge more money for it. And a couple people buy it and there’ll be a tiny bump in a graph

⏹️ ▶️ John and someone will get a good performance review.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but the thing is, like, there is demand for this. There is absolutely demand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for higher than CD quality sample rates and everything and higher bitrate formats

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or more advanced formats or lossless formats, there is definitely demand for that. Most people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t even know, people who listen to the show probably aren’t aware, quite how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many options there are for what basically amount to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fancy iPods that sell today for like $400 or more.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sony makes a bunch of them. They’re basically little,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pocketable, portable audio players, the size of a deck of cards, that kind of size class,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that have a headphone, just like the old iPod Classic, that play these super high bitrate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco files. They could actually output them and decode them with a fancy DAC and everything else. This market

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exists. People buy these things for $400, but not a lot of people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There are streaming services, things like Neil Young’s Pano, things like even Tidal, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a fairly decently sized streaming service now. Like the streaming services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that have either been, or even music sales services, I don’t think Pano even was streaming,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it only sold stuff if it even still exists. But anyway, there are services that will either sell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you high bitrate music legally or that will let you stream them like Tidal.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They use the quality as their main selling point, but they don’t really ever become mass market. They don’t really ever get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anywhere off the ground. The only reason Tidal has gotten anywhere is because it has had exclusives.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’ve had exclusive album releases on there. Other than that, when they were really only about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the music quality, they got nowhere. The fact is, most people don’t care,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and most people don’t need to care, because for most of these gains, there actually is no perceptible difference to most people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So while Apple could sell high bitrate songs and stuff, that would just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be appealing to a very, very small market in what is already a declining market,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is the market of music sales.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the second part of this, about HEVC being part of 4K, yep, 100%. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John 4K video is bigger, HEVC is a higher efficiency codec, it supports higher resolutions

⏹️ ▶️ John for video, not just the images with the heath thing. Anyway, yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s 100% part of that, and that’s why we’re gonna see a 4K Apple TV and ATVC encoded content

⏹️ ▶️ John that plays on it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree.

Whose setup would we use?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Adam Sack writes in to say, and this is the first in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a theme that I noticed, which was, try to get the ATP hosts to hate each other. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he writes in, if you had to use the daily tech setup of one of your co-hosts for a week instead

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of your own, whose devices would you choose? And I will start off, and I would probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey choose Marco’s because it is in general most similar to my setup. Obviously there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are differences, but most similar to mine. And he has some pretty kick-ass headphones. So win-win.

⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone would pick Marco’s, including Marco, because he has the best stuff. Who’s not going to pick Marco’s setup? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want to use Casey’s crappy laptop. Come on. No one wants to use

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey my 10-year-old Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John Come on, man. So we pick Marco’s.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I would pick Casey’s because non-retina. Sorry, John, you lose.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John You should

⏹️ ▶️ John have picked my wife’s. You could have picked the 5K iMac. It’s the one without image retention.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s actually better than mine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s funny. Yeah, I’m going to pick the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s funny.

When to replace an Accord?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ian Murn writes in to say, and I don’t think I selected this as one to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey answer, but I have a feeling I know who did. I have an 08 Accord. When’s the ideal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time to replace it? It’s at about 80,000 miles, no maintenance issues to date. John, did you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey perhaps star this as a question to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John answered? I did, because

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I think this is a good question.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the right time, probably the best time to replace this Accord was right

⏹️ ▶️ John now or last year because the the best time to get an accord is at the tail

⏹️ ▶️ John end of a generation when they worked all the kinks out of it and they have we always get like the special

⏹️ ▶️ John edition even if you don’t get the special edition like they know how to build that generation of car it has the most

⏹️ ▶️ John doodads and and you know nice things added to it and they figured out low and the first model to

⏹️ ▶️ John put the usb port in the wrong place or you know fiddle things like That’s the time to get it.

⏹️ ▶️ John The first car of the generation, the new Accord, I think the new Accord is uglier than the old one,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it does have a better infotainment system. So that’s the other time you can get it. It’s like the

⏹️ ▶️ John excitement of getting in on the first car in a new generation. But in general,

⏹️ ▶️ John when your Accord starts getting to be around 10 years old, I feel like that’s the time to, if you want to have any chance of having

⏹️ ▶️ John any reasonable trade in on it, or private sale, whatever you want to do with it, to do with it. Don’t wait until the car is basically

⏹️ ▶️ John worthless or it’s worth like a couple hundred bucks. Wait till it’s you know, it’s still a couple thousand dollars worth of value in your

⏹️ ▶️ John car. It’s before crap starts breaking. Like I said, you know, the 8000 miles nothing is nothing is

⏹️ ▶️ John issue with it. It’s an oh wait, right? It’s getting to be around 10 years.

⏹️ ▶️ John Time to replace.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, just as a point of comparison, I pretty much agree with you. But when we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bought the Volvo, We traded in Aaron’s 2007 Mazda 6, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had a little bit shy of 80,000 miles on it, and as I believe I talked about on the show, was pretty much a tank.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That thing almost never had any problems. And we got $3,000 in change for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think CarMax offered us three grand. So it was not worthless by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any means, but I agree with you, John, that this is the kind of edge of the cliff, I think, and you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go too much further and you’re going to fall right off that cliff. Marco, any thoughts on this?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope. Good talk.

What does John like?*

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Joe Sullivan writes in, is there anything that Syracuse is in favor of or likes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey without any caveats, reservations, or asterisks? And I have to congratulate Joe Sullivan

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because there are about a million ways to ask this question like a big fat jerk, and this was not one of them. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well done. That’s a great question.

⏹️ ▶️ John I put too many things at the end of this question. Caveats, reservations, or asterisks? Well, caveats,

⏹️ ▶️ John you kind of know what that means. Reservations, it’s still getting a little bit vague. What do asterisks mean?

⏹️ ▶️ John else in addition that you want to say about it like the answer your question there is nothing nothing so perfect come

⏹️ ▶️ John on that’s right there are tons of things that I really like but

⏹️ ▶️ John if pressed to say hey you really like Kiki’s delivery services or anything wrong with that movie

⏹️ ▶️ John well I mean that I think because it’s actually probably closest like I can if pressed

⏹️ ▶️ John I can come up with asterisks for Kiki’s delivery service sure like of course

⏹️ ▶️ John you can right there There is, nothing is going to be absolutely perfect. If you can’t,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you literally can’t think of anything wrong with it, then you probably don’t understand the thing. But that doesn’t mean, like, these

⏹️ ▶️ John are my favorite things in the whole world. Like overwhelmingly, everything I feel about these is that they’re great,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? So I think that qualifies. And that reasonable definition of, is there anything

⏹️ ▶️ John that you are like without any caveats or reservation? Like if someone said, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I need a good movie to watch. I say, well, if you’ve never seen The Empire Strikes

⏹️ ▶️ John Back, watch Star Wars and then Empire Strikes Back. I’m not going to add reservations. Oh, but also,

⏹️ ▶️ John here are some reservations about The Empire Strikes Back. I’m going to add no reservations. There is nothing to say

⏹️ ▶️ John about it. So I would say that qualifies. It’s either the only definitions are the pedantic one in which nothing qualifies for anybody,

⏹️ ▶️ John or the reasonable definition in which there’s tons of things that I really like. If you want to hear me, things I really like, listen to The Incomparable.

⏹️ ▶️ John Very, very often on that show, I talk about things I really like. know, for the video game journey to television

⏹️ ▶️ John shows, movies, books. We do. We do talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John asterisks if you want to call it that, but that doesn’t mean we don’t love them. So I think this question is not a good question.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That’s more than an asterisk, more than a reservation. I think that was a great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco question because of the answer it got.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yes, I spent most of the time

⏹️ ▶️ John complaining about the question. I mean, but that’s true of anybody. Like, is there anything even we ask you the you chose it? Is there anything

⏹️ ▶️ John you two like uncritically without caveats, reservation, or asterisks? I think if you’re honest with yourselves,

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to say that’s not true for either of you either.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I think the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John chat room offered up a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number of good options. Your kids, your wife, your dog, Long Island,

⏹️ ▶️ John journey. Well, those are BS questions. You got reservations about your wife and your kids. Don’t say you don’t. Ice cream.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you think your spouse does not have any asterisks, you are either newly married

⏹️ ▶️ John or willfully naive because everybody has asterisks, everybody.

⏹️ ▶️ John I like where I am. What can I say? Yeah, but they’re always asked, what is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey asked is like the tiniest

⏹️ ▶️ John little thing, you know, it’s like, could something be a little bit different? Of course, of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey course, always.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t even know where to go from here.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, and especially kids like no, my child is perfect. Yes, lots of parents think that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe a little bit less screaming, like not, you know, like, like three seconds less screaming in a lifetime of

⏹️ ▶️ John screaming. Would you accept that? I’m saying yes, I would accept three seconds less.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Well, that’s an asterisk. There you

⏹️ ▶️ John go. Maybe if that poo hadn’t exploded out the side of the diaper

⏹️ ▶️ John that one time when I had a new car, would you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey always an asterisk? So now you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John love your children because you didn’t want the poo to come out the side of the diaper and go all over your new car seats.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s amazing. We

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco got to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey move on. Otherwise, we’re never going to get through this. Let’s Let’s see, what was next? I have so many

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fricking tabs open. I must be John Syracuse.

Podcast recommendations

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Edward Lovell writes in, what podcast do you currently listen to and would recommend?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I listen to a ton of podcasts, but there’s a couple that I would recommend. The aforementioned Dubai

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Friday is excellent. I will pitch one of my,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or a couple of my co-hosts shows. I think that Reconcilable Differences is phenomenal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so is Under the Radar, but I will also pitch a couple others very quickly. If you wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to hear a smart person talk about conservative

⏹️ ▶️ Casey politics, which you may or may not want, the Ben Shapiro show is very interesting and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very good. I don’t listen to every episode by any means. It’s like 45 minutes and it’s pretty much every weekday. But when I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time, usually about once a week, I’ll catch it. And I typically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey deeply, deeply disagree with the things he thinks, but nevertheless, it is interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will also say that wheel bearings is neutral by people who actually know what they’re talking about. Who

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wouldn’t want to listen to that? Yeah, I know, right? And then 20,000 hertz

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is also very good. Think 99% invisible, but specifically around sound. So those are just some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey selections from my extraordinarily long list of podcasts that I listen to.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, since I’ve been tagging Marco first more often, let’s go to you next.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have a strong recommendation for Roderick on the Line, which I love. Flophouse,

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously, my probably oldest recommendation. That show is still going.

⏹️ ▶️ John Obviously, Hello Internet and Cortex, the pair of shows

⏹️ ▶️ John both involving CGP Grey. Those are great. What else we got? I’m scrolling

⏹️ ▶️ John through Overcast to look at… I have way too many things in Overcast. I’m scrolling through there. Debug,

⏹️ ▶️ John which I don’t know if it’s still ongoing, but the back catalog of Debug is great. It’s a tech

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey show

⏹️ ▶️ John where they talk to lots of important people in tech. You should definitely check that out. There’s tons

⏹️ ▶️ John more, but I think that’s a good place to get started.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco? You guys have already mentioned pretty much everything I was going to say. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usuals, Dubai Friday, Hello Internet, Cortex, Roderick on the Line.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As far as in the tech world, again, you’ve covered many good ones. I would also add

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Upgrade on RelayFM with Jason Snell and Mike Crowley. That is probably my favorite tech

⏹️ ▶️ Marco show. It’s just really, really great. So, yeah, otherwise, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco guys pretty much covered it. Yeah, 99PI, you know, and what I love about, I mean, I could obviously talk about podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forever, so I will try not to, but what I love about this is that none of us mentioned shows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that were like the biggest podcast in the world. 99PI is probably the biggest one we mentioned, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when people think podcasting, they so often will make an assumption like, everybody listens to This American Life,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? You know, stuff like that. But the fact is, there isn’t any podcast out there that everybody listens to. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the world of mass market or very, very popular podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is still actually fairly diversified. And there’s a lot of people who listen to a lot of podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who don’t listen to any of those big ones. So this is part of what I love about podcasting is like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so incredibly diverse and specialized that like I can look at so many podcasts and there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there are so many amazing podcasts out there, but I don’t need to spend any time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listening to things that aren’t like really interesting to me and that aren’t specialized to my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interests because there’s so much that is and that’s just part of what I love about podcasting.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, my overcast list is huge. I subscribe to tons of things. I was trying to give recommendations that maybe people

⏹️ ▶️ John might not go for like, you know, this one of the reasons I didn’t recommend the talk show because I assume

⏹️ ▶️ John you know that show exists and it’s good and you should totally listen to it. Like I didn’t recommend this American life because assuming you know that show exists

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s good and you should listen to it, right? Trying to find the slightly more obscure corners. But

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the other thing I like about podcasts. I subscribe to way more podcasts than I than I faithfully listen to.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I’m not a podcast completionist. I have tons of descriptions, a few shows I keep up with very

⏹️ ▶️ John religiously, but a lot of shows I let age and then go through five episodes at a time. And a lot of shows I just pick and choose from.

⏹️ ▶️ John Um, that’s the best thing. Not only do you not have to like, Oh, it was only five podcasts that everyone listens

⏹️ ▶️ John to. You should find a podcast that you really like. And sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John you find a podcast and you only have to listen to the episodes that you really like. Like even like the incomparable,

⏹️ ▶️ John like if they do an episode reviewing something that you don’t care about, skip that episode. Like they’re standalone. If they’re, you know, they

⏹️ ▶️ John do a thing about a TV show that you didn’t watch and you’re not interested in fine. Like just pick and choose. It’s the beauty of podcasting.

⏹️ ▶️ John We just listen to every episode of our show, Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, of course. I mean, how could you not?

State of Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Regular Language writes in, what do you think about the current state of Swift? I would like to hear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what John and Marco have to say about, see, I guess Casey,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a rant about Swift opens. Oh, I think there’s new lines missing here. Basically, what do you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think and maybe me talk about Swift open source? So I will, I guess, round this out at the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey end. So let’s start with Marco and then go to John.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I don’t pay that much attention to what’s going on in Swift. I know I’m supposed to, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know I should. Overcast contains some Swift code that I added to try to keep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco myself the language and stuff, but I’m still writing most code in Objective-C. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not really out of a judgment of Swift so much as it’s just a pragmatism that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I still don’t see a lot of motivation for me to switch. I recognize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I should, but I, in practice, don’t. John?

⏹️ ▶️ John This is too open-ended of a question. I would have never have picked

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it. Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John seems like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey chugging along.

⏹️ ▶️ John I do keep up with the things that are going on in it. It’s still got challenges, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John making slow, steady progress. So I think Swift is moving in the right direction at varying speeds.

⏹️ ▶️ John And what do we have to say about C?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey No, no, no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, that’s not C the language. I think basically the question was, what do you guys have to say about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Swift, and what do I have to say specifically about Swift open source? All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John right, well, go ahead.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think your summary of Swift is good and brief, and I stand by it. Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey open source is a double-edged sword, I think. I think that the problem that I have with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Swift open source is that it seems like a lot of the really, really,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really academic, like, I’m trying to think of a way to say this without being pejorative,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but people who are much more interested in the academic side of programming languages seem

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be the ones that are most vocal and most interested to participate on the mailing lists and things of that nature,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where someone like myself, which is not to say I’m at the same caliber as a super academic, but someone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like myself, who I like to think of as, I’m a reasonably smart guy, but I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really have any interest in following the intricacies of what’s going on in the mailing list.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t really have any interest in arguing about different pitches that have been made

⏹️ ▶️ Casey via the mailing list. I just wanna get crap done, man. And to me, I feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like Swift Open Source, It feels like, from an outsider’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point of view, that maybe it could use a little more stern direction from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to prevent the kind of meandering and the kind of, I don’t know, language

⏹️ ▶️ Casey features that I find to be really, really silly and not terribly helpful for actually just shipping

⏹️ ▶️ Casey products. And that’s where I kind of get a little frustrated. But it’s easy for me to throw

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stones from outside the glass house, right? And really, if I wanted to effect change,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I should be doing is participating on the darn mailing list that I’m lamenting.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure you should be doing that because I’m going to put this out there. Language design is a different skill

⏹️ ▶️ John than being a programmer and using that language. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I think it is

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely appropriate that the list where people are designing the languages looks weird to someone who’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, I just want to write my programs. Like you make the language and give it to me. Like you don’t need to

⏹️ ▶️ John cross over. I think Switch Evolution, I’ve seen a lot of language design mailing lists and Switch

⏹️ ▶️ John evolution is above average, believe it or not. And maybe if you

⏹️ ▶️ John look in the outside, this is the first time you follow the development of any language, it can look like dominated by academics

⏹️ ▶️ John and weird and chaotic and a lot of bike shedding. But in the grand scheme of things, they’re they are above average.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, just just coming so early to say, Look, we’re gonna have releases, we’re gonna exclude things from them.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then you know, like, there’s gonna be people discussing things in list, even though they say they’re excluded from Swift, serious, but for like,

⏹️ ▶️ John but in general, I think they’re pretty well behaved and I do want essentially language nerds or people

⏹️ ▶️ John like people with the skill the language design skill and you know RPG poems or whatever to be

⏹️ ▶️ John designing the language rather than having a bunch of people who just want to use the language

⏹️ ▶️ John throwing out the first idea that pops into their head that they think might make their their night like beginning

⏹️ ▶️ John language designers like I’ve been programming for 20 years and I think a language would be cool well how many languages have you designed

⏹️ ▶️ John have you tried doing that what does it actually turn out to be? So I like, I like language

⏹️ ▶️ John design as a separate skill being developed among people who just do that and seeing them do their thing

⏹️ ▶️ John definitely does look weird, but I endorse it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also and part of why I have not adopted Swift more is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the idea of of investing my time into a language that is still very much a beta

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a huge turnoff for me. Like I do not, I have no interest in participating

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the design of this language. I have no interest in beta testing this language for anybody. In the same way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t want to beta test brakes on my car. I want to get the final brakes, thank you, and I want them to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work, and I don’t want to ever have to think about them, or I never want them to flake out or fail or cause me undue work.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John sound like a Tesla owner. You don’t want to beta test the brakes? They just sent us new firmware for your brakes last night while you were sleeping.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like for me, especially every summer when during beta season when like all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new stuff comes out and I see all the iOS developers I know complaining about something that Swift broke,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am very happy to not be very reliant on it right now. And you know, because the fact is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m an independent developer, I don’t have a lot of time. I like and the time I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to spend coding, I have to spend it very wisely. And the most frustrating

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing for me, which is true of many people, is fighting with my tools. And so if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any language or part of my developer toolchain, I’m going to try to minimize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasons that I would have to fight with it, or the amount of work it’s going to require from me to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use. And Swift, while it does look like a fairly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure it will be good once it’s done, for me, right now, the reality of using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Swift is still a lot of overhead and a lot of dealing with the changes as they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco come, and dealing with weird things breaking sometimes. And I just want to wait until it’s all settled

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before I invest heavily into it, because I have zero interest in being an early adopter for things like this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All I want is for it to work so I can spend my time in other ways.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I will say that there are certainly annoyances, and I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey legitimately argue with anything that you’ve said, but it feels like it’s gotten a lot better

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over the last, you know, six to twelve months.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh yeah. It has.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the dabbling I’ve done on the Xcode 9 beta, by and large, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s a beta, of course, but by and large, it looks really solid. And so I think, and of course, you would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say this every year, right? Now is the time to dive in, Marco. It’s all better than it ever was. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s the year of Linux on the desktop, right? It’ll always be better the next year. But it is not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nearly as scary now as it once was. But there’s still dragons back there from time to time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I would also love to use Swift on the server. That’s one thing that has me very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interested in learning it, because the idea of learning one language that I can use in both places is incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco attractive to me. Because that would be a great use of, if I’m going to learn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more languages and master more frameworks, being able to use the same one in both places basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes it twice as valuable to me. So I would love that. But it’s all just so early.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And to have basics like concurrency not worked out yet, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, I just, I need…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, yes and no, right? Like it’s just as worked out as it is in Objective-C, because you still have GCD and whatnot.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s just that… Well, when I’m saying server, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean Linux, though.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, okay, fair. But my point is just that like, concurrency, I agree with you,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey should be worked out in a much better way, but it’s not like we’re handcuffed now. It’s just that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s the existing GCD API, again, maybe not on the server, but at least on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey client, it’s the existing GCD API. And it actually is a lot nicer in a lot of ways. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there should be something like, you know, everyone is calling for C-sharps async await.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we’ll see what happens.

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Women-in-tech progress

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Squarespace, make your next move.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey David Klein writes, about two years ago, you discussed women in tech and podcasting and even exchanged hosts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How do you feel today regarding women in tech? This is a very good question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which stresses me out because I feel like I’m going to step on some landmine here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But that being said, I feel like we have made, We,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not the three of us, like we as a community, have made

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a fair bit of positive strides, but still have an almost equal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey amount of improvement left to make. And I feel like people are paying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot more attention to the fact that there’s so much sexism in tech and it’s such

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a crummy place to be a woman. And I think the easiest example of this is people,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like regular people, knowing what Assesspool Uber is slash was,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and regular people deciding to use Lyft instead of Uber, which,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quick aside, I used Lyft in Chicago when Aaron and I were on our

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 10-year wedding anniversary, and it was great. Worked great. No different than Uber,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so I highly recommend it. But anyway, so we still have a ton of room. It’s one of those things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where we have taken the tiniest, littlest step forward, but there’s still like 85,000 miles in front of us, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s almost imperceptible. Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I basically agree. I mean, I unfortunately am not an expert in this topic.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, few men in tech are. You know, that’s not a coincidence.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a huge problem, and we still have so, so long to go,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we are talking about it now way more than it used to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talked about. So even though I don’t have the knowledge to know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether it’s actually making progress really, I have no idea. I would guess it’s making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slow progress. But we are talking about it and a lot more people,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ourselves included, are much more conscientious of this being an issue

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than we used to be. And that has to help too. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously a lot more that we can all do and that we need to all do. But I do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think that awareness is way better than it was. And that will slowly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco start helping this problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s like the first stage of all these things is the very long process of getting people

⏹️ ▶️ John to be aware that this is an issue at all. What’s the issue? What is the problem? Is this a thing that exists?

⏹️ ▶️ John And that takes a really long time. It’s kind of depressing to me because my childhood like I felt

⏹️ ▶️ John like the whole One of the previous names of a larger version This is the women’s lib

⏹️ ▶️ John movement back in the 60s and 70s and even to the 80s Was also in that stage

⏹️ ▶️ John of like hey raise awareness like women’s liberation. What do women need to be liberated from? What do you mean?

⏹️ ▶️ John Right? I felt like we went through that and And

⏹️ ▶️ John then like that knowledge was lost somehow

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and now we are back in

⏹️ ▶️ John the tech sector which is a microcosm of the larger world, is like, do we have to relearn that sexism

⏹️ ▶️ John exists? Apparently, the answer is yes, and we’re learning it better and more thoroughly. And

⏹️ ▶️ John with, I think, a clearer eyed picture and not accepting as many limitations

⏹️ ▶️ John as the previous, you know, feminist movements and women’s liberation and all that other stuff. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I still very strongly feel that we are in the awareness phase for everybody. I for

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, for me as well. I like the and I do see some concrete signs of progress.

⏹️ ▶️ John I find myself seeing I mean from my perspective, a lot of what I see is like who’s speaking

⏹️ ▶️ John at this tech conference. I see and watch and hear about and get forwarded

⏹️ ▶️ John to me more really good talks by women at tech conferences as the circles I travel in

⏹️ ▶️ John and my Twitter or whatever than I did several years ago. And I feel like that is progress,

⏹️ ▶️ John probably just progress in my awareness that that is a thing and also progress in the people

⏹️ ▶️ John I follow forwarding me those things. And you know, like you said, like, the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John there can even be a story that has any real world consequences to a company about, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John this company is run by a bunch of sexist jerks. And that actually, like, is a thing we hear about, and be

⏹️ ▶️ John something, anything, literally anything happens about it, maybe not the right thing, maybe not the best things, but something

⏹️ ▶️ John happens, like, if one extra person deletes their app, like, that is a tiny bit

⏹️ ▶️ John of progress. But yeah, that’s pretty much how I feel how it’s going. And about

⏹️ ▶️ John us specifically on the show, like we’re still, we still talk about it. We still discuss it. We still try

⏹️ ▶️ John to do what we can in the ways that we can. And you know, it’s a continuing struggle.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep.

Next iPhone dealbreakers?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Robin Christofferson writes in, which, if any of the many rumored changes to the new iPhone would actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey make you decide not to upgrade if it comes to pass? I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to go on a very small rant about this. I don’t understand people who say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I can’t think of a specific example of, oh, actually the touch bar is a great example. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will never like the touch bar and I will never buy a Mac that has a touch bar. That to me just doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey make sense because it Stands to reason that at least for portable Macs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the touch bar is going to be the future probably across the line It may not be for five years or something like that But it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will probably be the future and even if the touch bar if you think that’s a crummy example It doesn’t matter My point is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like just get on the bus the bus is pulling away Get on the bus and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you may not love it, but get on the bus because what’s the alternative go to Windows? Ha have fun and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and so to me there may be something that I don’t like about the new iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So for the sake of example, I’m skeptical that I would terribly enjoy the face unlock

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I suspect I wouldn’t miss touch ID, but I mean, I will certainly give it a shot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will certainly give it a shot. And if it ends up that I like touch ID better, well then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s a stinky part of the new iPhone, but everything else will be amazing. So it’ll all even itself out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I don’t really, I understand the question, But I don’t really understand this question.

⏹️ ▶️ John You think the narrower view they’re asking would make you not want to upgrade. And when I saw this question, I thought about like touch

⏹️ ▶️ John ID on the back. If they couldn’t, if they can’t get the touch ID under the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John for this generation, but we know for a fact, because other phones do this, that fingerprint

⏹️ ▶️ John sensing under a screen is a technology that exists that just, you know, wasn’t up to Apple’s caliber yet for

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever reason. I might say if I was, if it was my upgrade year, which it isn’t, by the way, I might say

⏹️ ▶️ John oh I’m not gonna upgrade to to this phone I’ll wait till next year when I and hopefully

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll have that sorted out or we even wait to the next generation because you know I have no problem waiting it’s not like Casey was saying like

⏹️ ▶️ John oh I’m never gonna buy with a touch bar like obviously eventually you have to get a new phone and eventually I would

⏹️ ▶️ John choose to get an iPhone but specifically like oh if they make a new form factor and it’s the first model year

⏹️ ▶️ John and they had to make weird compromises and touch ID is in the back even if it’s just as simple as like they put touch ID in the back

⏹️ ▶️ John but I’ve never used touch ID in the back I’m not sure I like it I’d rather let a bunch of my friends who I know really well

⏹️ ▶️ John buy this phone and tell me about it so that the next year I’ll know whether I think I’ll like it or like just play with them to start

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever so yes there are lots of weird things involving the phone that would make me decide not to upgrade

⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t think there’s many things that would make me decide I’m never going to buy an iPhone again and that’s that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a different question

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I mean I I think pretty similarly I mean look we all know I’m gonna buy it regardless

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so why why even bother I mean you know I think the answer is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I’m going to do what I always do, which is I’m going to buy the new thing immediately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then I’ll complain about anything that’s worse about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. That’s typically how these things tend to go.

Tabs or spaces?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did not want to answer this question because this is another example of where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t care. But somebody, and I think that person’s name might be John Syracusa, has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey decided we should answer this question. So Steven Sandhoff writes, tabs or spaces? I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey honestly don’t even have the faintest idea what my editor is set to. It’s whatever the default for Xcode is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Don’t care.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re a monster. You don’t even know?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Don’t even know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pick one. Actually, I can say the same thing. So I know what it is in TextMate,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but for my iOS code and Xcode, I actually have no idea which one it is. But I will say in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco TextMate it’s Spaces. But I tweeted about this a few weeks ago, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it doesn’t really matter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because good tools let you switch between one or the other with one command. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it really doesn’t matter at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, no, no, no. That’s something a tab user would say. It totally matters. Let me tell you why.

⏹️ ▶️ John So first of all, my answer on tabs versus spaces is spaces. And the reason I say spaces

⏹️ ▶️ John is because spaces are the same size visually everywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey But the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whole point in tabs, I thought, is that I can choose to have my tabs be a thousand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John width. Right,

⏹️ ▶️ John okay, yeah. So now tabs, now it’s like, okay, well, tabs are semantic

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey in depth here, but

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t tell me how big it has to be. The problem with that is that I think

⏹️ ▶️ John good formatting in most, not maybe, some, let’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John say, in some programming languages, good formatting needs to be done,

⏹️ ▶️ John has instances in which you want to indent by less than one

⏹️ ▶️ John indentation level to align things, right? And if you use

⏹️ ▶️ John spaces everywhere, There is no ambiguity and you can make it look like

⏹️ ▶️ John how you want it to look like. If you use tabs, some joker’s gonna set their tab

⏹️ ▶️ John to two and someone else is gonna have it set to four and someone’s gonna have it set to eight and the part

⏹️ ▶️ John and the line where you use tabs but then use spaces to align a bunch of things is gonna look crazy pants. So spaces is

⏹️ ▶️ John the correct answer but I’m forced to use tabs at work and have for many years and so if you’re a working programmer

⏹️ ▶️ John you gotta do what you gotta do with the actual answer is spaces And Chris Lattner agrees with me, so there you go.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s all that really matters.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I bet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco eventually drives you to quit your job. Like eventually, one day, you’re going to hit that tab

⏹️ ▶️ Marco key for the last time, and you’re like, that’s it, I’m done.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I mean, you still hit the tab key even when it does spaces. But work changed both

⏹️ ▶️ John my brace style and the indenting character. But this is what it means to be a working programmer. It’s too far.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, what is your preferred brace style?

⏹️ ▶️ John Many years ago, I used BSD style, opening and closing in the same column.

⏹️ ▶️ John For basically my entire career up to maybe 10 years ago. And then I switched to, forcibly

⏹️ ▶️ John switched to K&R. No cuddled else’s, come on people. I’m a K&R person

⏹️ ▶️ Casey myself. You know, I used to, first of all, I had no idea those were the two, I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know the names for those two styles. But I used to be violently, devoutly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in favor of, what did you say, BSD, where all of the opening

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Maybe I’m getting it

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong. It might be all men. It’s the one where the the opening curly is underneath the eye and if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, right, right. That’s, that’s the way I used to be. Just an I was passionately

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it like almost as bad as I am about people who say Jeff like I passionately believed that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you have to put it under I and those monsters that say Jeff that also put

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the opening brace at the end of the line, just are just without help. And over time, similar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey story, I think because I started writing a fair bit of JavaScript, I ended up kind of switching to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other style where you have, you know, if something open, open brace

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new line,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess an important part in every programmer who doesn’t work for themselves in a single person shop in their in

⏹️ ▶️ John their careers is becoming not just multi language fluent, but becoming able to and you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John worked on open source projects, your forces to becoming able to write code in the style demanded by the thing that you’re doing,

⏹️ ▶️ John whether it’s a job or an open source project or whatever you can’t I mean you can be precious about it and have a preferred

⏹️ ▶️ John thing but you have to be able to get the job done in whatever language or formatting

⏹️ ▶️ John that is dictated by the mob because you just have to just practically and you know in the end like I was

⏹️ ▶️ John also pretty strongly about the opening curly under the little eye and I still think it’s the style that makes more sense

⏹️ ▶️ John but you know you get over it a few years of using K&R and you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like okay like it’s fine and it’s actually difficult if you get into

⏹️ ▶️ John a groove to switch back and forth like if the mode switch between them you’ll just your fingers will you’ll find them doing

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing that they do and you have to switch back but like that’s life that’s programming for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean actually the reason why I use KNR style is that I used to use the brace under the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco eye but like in college and like as I was teaching myself how to program and going through college like I use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that style and then my first job use strictly KNR style and they just like broke

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me of that habit and then that became my style. Oh, we can all agree tabs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco versus spaces It doesn’t really matter but the right answer is spaces unless you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use two spaces in which case you’re an animal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I I think I could probably get behind that.

Low-level Apple stack wishes?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Spencer Holbrook writes in, what low-level part of Apple’s stack would you like to see replaced

⏹️ ▶️ Casey next? HFS plus to APFS, Objective-C to Swift, OpenGL to Metal, et cetera.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I’m most anxious and most interested in HFS plus to APFS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I can’t think of another example off the top of my head. I’m sure, John, you’ll probably have one. But none

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of these really rev my engine that much. Sorry, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Marco, let’s get- I’m asking you

⏹️ ▶️ John what you want to see replaced next. They listed a bunch of ones they’re already doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, so following all of that? Yes. Oh. Yeah, wish list. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t even know. I’d have to think about that. I’m not sure, to be honest. I’ll pass on this one. Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what do you think?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’m sure John’s going to have the best answers here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, exactly. Thank you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for going to me first. I don’t have to follow him. My boring answers are basically, I have two. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the API framework or if the UI framework is the correct level for this question,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love to see what surpasses AppKit on the Mac, if ever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s a good one, actually. That’s very good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s not low level. So if you go a little bit lower level, what I would also like to see is another

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing on the Mac, actually. I would like to see Mac sandboxing completely rethought and matured,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and a rethinking of the Mac security model with the new… So like basically, bringing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a more iOS-like sandboxing environment to the Mac. So to do things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you could knowingly safely install an application and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco delete that application and know that everything that goes with it gets deleted. Know that it can only write to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and read from certain directories that are easy to manage and isolated from other things and can’t like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every app that you install as you the user account can’t read your entire user directory.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they started down this path of sandboxing whenever that was like eight years ago. And they did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the most bare-bones basic version and then just stopped. And they never matured it. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of the version they did and the various shortcomings it had, it basically made it so that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most apps could not be reasonably sandboxed if they did anything cool at all. And I bet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a better balance to be struck now in the modern day with what we know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with where the software world is, where the economics and where the ecosystem has gone since then.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love to see a more modern, more secure version of sandboxing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the Mac that brings it closer to iOS in those security and user assuredness

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways. But that still has the power of Mac software available

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in various new clever ways. I know that’s a very hard thing to solve, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s also, A, I think we need to solve it, and B, I think there’s massive gains to be had there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when it is solved.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, John. So there’s probably, there’s a bunch of stuff all the way down to the kernel itself

⏹️ ▶️ John that I can list here. But the reason I put this in was because I don’t have any really good answers for a little stuff that I’m dying

⏹️ ▶️ John for, except for one. It’s actually mentioned in here. They said, you know, uh, HFS, APFS, Objective-C

⏹️ ▶️ John to Swift, OpenGL to Metal. The OpenGL to Metal one is the one I actually have objections to.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t like, I understand Metal and it’s a good thing to have and, and Apple is heavily behind

⏹️ ▶️ John it, but I think Apple should still have a world-class OpenGL implementation. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John know that’s a tough sell, but it’s like, what do we even need that for? We’re all in on metal, metal is

⏹️ ▶️ John the future, blah, blah, blah. I don’t think you should get rid of metal, but OpenGL

⏹️ ▶️ John or Vulkan or whatever is still a thing and it is still worth

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple not just maintaining, but like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John advance it. Like either don’t have it at all. kind of like flash, like, look, if you think it’s viable to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a web browser without flash, don’t support it at all. Don’t Don’t just say our flash emulation is slow. And so people won’t use it and they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John migrate to H just don’t support it at all. Don’t support it at all. And if you think you can’t, you know, oh, we can’t drop open

⏹️ ▶️ John GL, we have to have it our whole OS runs. Well, then make a good version of it. Like I was, this came up recently

⏹️ ▶️ John in the article, I think Casey read, was he retweeted it, but I read earlier about the dolphin

⏹️ ▶️ John GameCube

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco emulator.

⏹️ ▶️ John And all interesting technical problems. Casey, you can have a show note there. Put that one link in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a good article. Lots of good articles on that. And it goes through some fun technical details.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then towards the bottom of this really nice article, it says, here’s a section for Mac users. None of this is relevant to you because your OpenGL

⏹️ ▶️ John stack is a piece of crap. And none of the features that we even talked about even exist in your OpenGL implementation,

⏹️ ▶️ John let alone exist in our performance. So screw you guys. And it’s like, look, Apple, it’s embarrassing.

⏹️ ▶️ John I wish I want them. And what do we lose by that? We don’t get to have a cool GameCube

⏹️ ▶️ John emulator unless we boot into Windows or Linux for crying out loud.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Linux!

⏹️ ▶️ John So I hope that Apple gets their act together with

⏹️ ▶️ John OpenGL. Either don’t support it at all and then figure out what you have to do to make your computer still viable or

⏹️ ▶️ John actually support it and be awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was not what I expected, but that was a pretty good answer.

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How are Overcast ads doing?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Betterment, investing made better.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey J.C. Calhoun writes, how about an update on how the overcast advertising is working

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out? So John, no, I’m just kidding. What do you think, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, the short answer is it’s great. I mean, there’s not a whole lot to say on it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is, so they’re talking about like how I switched a few months ago to selling my own direct

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ads. And now they’re entirely for podcasts. At first it was like for podcasts and or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco websites. The podcasts have been buying them so much that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually recently stopped selling them for anything that’s not a podcast. The capability’s still there if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I choose to use it later, but I don’t think I will need to for a while. I worked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out some various pricing and inventory level tweaks over the last few months,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just working out how should these things be priced, how many should I have in each category, what should the categories

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even be. But I think it’s pretty stable now. And it’s making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good money. It’s making something like 10 times what I was making from Google

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ad, whatever, their AdMob, that’s what it is, yeah, the mobile app thing. So it’s going great. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as long as this continues to sell at all reasonably, I don’t see myself changing the model

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anytime soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey From your analytics or whatever you’ve got running against these ads, does it seem like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re working? Like obviously they’re working in the sense you keep selling them, but are they working in the sense that it seems

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like they’re pushing subscriptions to shows and all that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I have that info and I share that. The advertisers, when you buy an ad, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see in their little control panel on the website how many impressions, how many tabs, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many subscriptions it has gotten. They don’t see anything else, but they see those three numbers. And that’s all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I don’t collect anything else. That’s all I collect. And that plays into how I price them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I try to keep the cost per new subscriber within a certain range. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco challenge in pricing these ads is not trying to get people to buy them, it’s trying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to avoid the temptation to raise prices like crazy because they’re selling out frequently.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s hard for me to know what should a new listener be worth? What range

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should I keep this price in? The way I’ve been pricing it, I’ve been keeping it between $1 and $2 for most categories.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But certain categories, like I recently separated out business podcasts into their own category.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because I ran the numbers of what is a listener to over, sorry, what’s a listener to ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth? And if you’ve run the numbers over the course of certain time spans or like a year or two,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it ends up being like five bucks, something like that. And so I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I keep the prices between one and two dollars, that keeps it pretty good, pretty compelling for most people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But certain categories like business, business podcasts are huge, first of all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a huge market for business tips and tricks and writing books and everything. And many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them monetize not just by ads, but by selling you books, e-books,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco conferences, seminars, stuff like that. So they might have a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different valuation of what a new subscriber is worth to them. This

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is true of many of the different categories of podcasts. And some of them,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the people don’t care what a new listener’s worth. They just want to get some listeners and then they have a new show maybe and they wanna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get it basically going from zero. And so they use the ads for that. If you look at it purely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as like, how should I price these? In terms of like pure demand,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they keep selling out, so I should price them way higher. But if I price them higher, we’re gonna start

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting into numbers that if you think about the numbers, If you run the numbers of what is a listener worth,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it starts not to make sense for a lot of people. So I don’t want to breach that level. So basically the answer is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I even could make more money from it if I tried to, but I would be afraid if I did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, that I would have a brief period of making more money followed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by a crash as a lot of advertisers started seeing, you know, this actually isn’t worth what I’m paying for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these users and starts bailing out. So I want to keep it reasonable so that I have the most advertisers as possible. But besides

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, that minor concern, which I think is largely alleviated now by just time and stability,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s going great. It really is going great. And it’s one of the only advertising things I’ve ever seen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where basically all the parties win. Because I’m not showing you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ads for Viagra mattresses. I’m showing you ads for podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in categories that you subscribe to while you’re using a a podcast app in a way that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco respects your privacy, that isn’t a huge burden, that doesn’t get in your way. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a great setup. And you know, this obviously is not a method that every app can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do. So it’s not like, I’m not saying like every app should monetize the way I’ve monetized, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, you simply can’t, it doesn’t apply. But for what I am doing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s working great. And I have more advertisers who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to buy ads then I have inventory to sell them, and that’s wonderful.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s really awesome. John, any additional thoughts on that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right.

Subscription fatigue

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Edgar Perez writes in, and this is the first one that I noticed in this context,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I’ve seen this come up a lot, particularly after our 1Password discussion. And he writes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say, I agree that $3 a month for an app service is reasonable, but what if all the apps I use monthly want $3

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a month? Can’t let apps kill the Mac. I understand what people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are driving at. And again, Edgar isn’t the first person to say this. Oh, if every app I use is a subscription app, well, suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I won’t be able to afford anything anymore. And I get that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think in my eyes, if everything I used became a subscription,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would either change my usage or I would pay for it all. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey since we’re now deep into the second episode, I don’t remember if it was this episode or last week, we talked about ad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey blockers. I think it was last week, which was really two hours ago. I talked about ad blockers and how,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, Marco, you were saying, well, if an ad blocker shows up, then I’ll just leave and I just won’t read that content.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco one, by the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way. Oh, was it this one? Okay, thanks. So I’m getting tired. It’s nearly midnight.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so point being, you know, I think it’s a similar thing. So like for me, and this is just for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Casey, it may not be for others, but for me, I absolutely will pay for 1Password and I will absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pay for day one. But maybe you’re, you know, the listener here, maybe you’re a day one user, but you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t love it. You just kind of like it. And maybe it’s not worth paying for on a regular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey basis. So you just stop using day one and use Apple Notes or something like that. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay. That’s an option like that that will work in life will go on. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. That’s just the way I look at it. John, what do you think?

⏹️ ▶️ John If you had remembered back to actual last week, I addressed this on the show. The one password

⏹️ ▶️ John episode. I said, look, not every I did it from the perspective of an app developer. Not every app can sustain

⏹️ ▶️ John subscription pricing. Your app has to be valuable enough to enough people to sustain subscription pricing.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t think there’s any fear that every single app is gonna be $3 a

⏹️ ▶️ John month, because there are app categories, entire categories, let alone individual apps, that can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John sustain that because they don’t deliver that much value to people. So you have

⏹️ ▶️ John to know your application and your market to say, are enough people willing to subscribe to this?

⏹️ ▶️ John People probably aren’t gonna pay $3 a month for a fart app, right? Even if you have new farts released every

⏹️ ▶️ John month, like they’re a whole, you know? You’d have to turn it into like a free to play,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, casino gambling, exploit human nature type service to get that. And then it’s a different kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John app entirely, right? So this is a fear that I don’t think is a real thing. If you’re a customer, this

⏹️ ▶️ John will take care of itself. Don’t like it, the price, don’t buy it, right? And from a developer’s perspective,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you don’t wanna be on the losing end of that problem, taking care of itself, you should know,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if we can’t develop this without subscription pricing, make sure that

⏹️ ▶️ John it is valuable enough to enough people to justify subscription pricing. And one password certainly

⏹️ ▶️ John is because a lot of people find it a very valuable thing and they want it to work on an ongoing basis and they

⏹️ ▶️ John understand the ongoing maintenance costs and they’re willing to pay for it. But your fart app might not be. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say don’t worry about this too much. And if you don’t want to pay for a subscription, don’t pay for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You mean every time subscription pricing comes up, people bring up this issue

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what’s going to happen when everything’s subscription and everyone gets tired of it and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stops paying for it?” Something like that. The idea of subscription fatigue.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we’ve been able to charge subscription prices now for a little while and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s just not happening. I have not seen any sign that that’s happening. I think this is one of those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that the market just sorts out itself. Like John said, most apps aren’t willing to,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or sorry, most customers aren’t willing to pay for most of their apps. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they wouldn’t be buying a $36 a year upgrade either instead of paying $3

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a month. The fact is most apps have a lot of competition

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and aren’t that necessary for most people. So they’re going to have a hard time no matter how they charge.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the apps that are really valuable to people, that are difficult for people to go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without, or that are required for them to do their work or whatever else, or that appeal to markets that don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about spending three dollars a month, they can do this just fine. I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole like slippery slope argument is like, well, once all the apps go this way, no one’s going to want to pay anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just don’t think that’s happening. I think we would have seen that by now. We would have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seen that at least starting, and it’s just not. Most apps are not even trying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to charge subscription rates, and the ones that are mostly do okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree. I agree.

Noise-canceling AirPods

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Jude Dunn writes in, is it technically possible for Apple to make second-gen AirPods noise

⏹️ ▶️ Casey canceling or noise isolating? I really, really want that. I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey why not. I think the problem with that is it’s even more processing to be done, thus even more battery usage. But I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at this point, I don’t know that it would be a tremendous difference. And certainly noise

⏹️ ▶️ Casey isolating, I mean, they could change the look of these things and change where they sit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey within your ear. I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work. Marco? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, you basically got it. The noise cancellation requires a microphone on the outside

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then DSP on the inside to basically emit sound waves on the inside,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but mixed into your sound, that will cancel out by phase

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the wave, that will cancel out the waves of the ones coming in from the outside world. So there’s nothing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stopping them from doing that, as far as I know, in the hardware they have now, or in that style

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of hardware they have now, rather. But that wouldn’t be very useful without better isolation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And isolation is right now where they really fall down. And that doesn’t require any circuitry,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that requires physical barriers, basically, of literally just isolating you from the world around you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And to do that, right now they are earbuds. And what earbuds are are little drivers that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sit kind of inside your ears, but they’re more like resting in a little curvy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco spot in your ear, they’re not really blocking your ear canal at all. There are other types,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like canal phones, or in-ear monitors, they’re also called, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually block your whole ear canal with some kind of big rubber cone thing or something like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they physically block the sound from getting into your ears. Larger

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over-ear headphones have a similar effect, but they cup

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over your ears as if you’re putting your hands over your ears and block the sound that way. Either way, you’re physically blocking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the sound from getting there. For the AirPods to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, they would have to have a totally different shape that would actually block

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your ear canal and be more like canal phones. Or they would have to have some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coating or cover you could put on them, some kind of accessory that you could put on them to do that. Although I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think ideally they would be designed for this from the start. So there’s nothing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stopping Apple from releasing AirPod canal phones. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a different style of product. It’s a whole different shape. It’s a whole different set

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of constraints and design goals you’d have to have for it. I don’t expect they would do that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably at all. But if they do it, it would probably be a separate product. It probably would not just be like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AirPods 2, now they block your whole ear canal. It would probably be like, here’s the new air

⏹️ ▶️ Marco canals, or whatever, they would have a better name than that. But it would probably be a separate product because that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very separate physical design of these products.

⏹️ ▶️ John Let’s just work on Apple being able to ship AirPods in a reasonable time frame before we worry about adding

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco features to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. Sick burn. Yeah, and again, I also would not spend too much time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco waiting around for the AirPod 2s, AirPods 2, whatever they’re called. I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple was updating the AirPods anytime soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think you’re probably right about that.

Top Swift wishes?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Alex S. Glamsas writes in to say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you could make a single change to Swift, what would it be? I will say that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even though it’s probably not the biggest thing in the world, what I’d really love to see is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reflection. And I’ve talked about this from time to time. Reflection or introspection means at runtime, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey look at an object in code and say, what are the properties it has? What are the methods it has? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey typically along with that, you’ll see annotations, which are attributes in C

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sharp world, which means you can kind of decorate your code with metadata, which is also super useful.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could go on and on and on about this, but it’s not terribly interesting. So I’ll just say reflection with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a bonus choice of stealing Marco’s thought earlier of a better

⏹️ ▶️ Casey concurrency model. So since I’ve stolen your obvious answer, Marco, what would you say afterwards?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I don’t really have a good answer to this question because I don’t know enough about Swift because of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco aforementioned factors. I don’t use it really enough. So I really am not qualified to say.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco John?

⏹️ ▶️ John So if a single change, if concurrency counts as a single change, oh, just solve concurrency.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, the solution of your choosing, either a good implementation of async await or something

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely different or whatever, that would be my single thing, but that’s kind of vague. If I have to be narrow, I would say regular

⏹️ ▶️ John expression literals.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You? No. No way.

⏹️ ▶️ John Both of those things are coming, by the way. is the question of when.

Arcade-game nostalgia?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Brian Middleton asks, what arcade games are each of you nostalgic for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from your childhood? Is there one game you would like to own? I will start as usual. We

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually have a pinball machine in the house. My dad many years ago had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gone through a phase of restoring, or maybe not restoring, but repairing old pinball machines.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so he had like six of them at one point, but unloaded all but two of them, one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of which went to me and one of which he still has. So I obviously have nostalgia

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for all those, but in terms of traditional arcade games, NBA Jam,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cruisin’ USA, and Street Fighter II, I didn’t play any of them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that much, but I enjoyed deeply all three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of those, both in arcade form and occasionally in console form. So I would say those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey three. Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I hardly went to arcades in my childhood. We didn’t really live that close to them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we didn’t have a lot of money. And so the idea of just going there and blowing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tens of dollars maybe, that would not really happen in my family. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I did play a little bit of arcade games as I was a teenager here and there,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the one I most liked was Daytona USA. This was during the mid-90s or so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the Sega Saturn was coming out and so they had a few cool games like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Virtua Fighter and everything that were coming out alongside of it. And Daytona USA was my favorite one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was a racing game and it was just basic kind of like NASCAR style, I think. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know if I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey about racing to say.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But whatever style uses what appear to be stock cars on a round track without a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of turns. So that, and it was a lot of fun, but it was a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dollar per play in most arcades. So I hardly ever played it with the exception there was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this like I was in some kind of youth group and there was one time that they had a lock-in at a Magic Mountain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco arcade where we just got everything set to free play and we get to play them all night so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I played a lot of Daytona USA for one night and that was awesome but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than that it’s I mean this is kind of a sad story like other than that I hardly ever played arcade games so I don’t really know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John?

⏹️ ▶️ John I played a lot of arcade games I was a lot that I’m very nostalgic for.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s hard to pick one that I would want to own though, because in general arcade games back then, and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John assuming still today, were made to take your money. And so I remember

⏹️ ▶️ John getting lots of, you know, tokens or quarters and feeding them into these machines. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John think if I owned any of them, they would become shallow very fast, especially the

⏹️ ▶️ John games I’m nostalgic about. Unless you do something like Centipede or like Pac-Man, or you try to make it like the perfect

⏹️ ▶️ John game or whatever but uh in in a couple of summer camps I went to they had arcade

⏹️ ▶️ John games they were either set to free or were only 25 cents

⏹️ ▶️ John when instead of 50 or whatever and then I played a lot and so there are some games I got really

⏹️ ▶️ John good at like one of them it was Tiger Heli which is a not a top-down uh

⏹️ ▶️ John vertically scrolling shooter thing or 1942 similar type of game both

⏹️ ▶️ John of those were at camp I got really good at those games like that That was where you put in one quarter and I’d play for a really, really,

⏹️ ▶️ John really long time. You know, um, but even then

⏹️ ▶️ John you feel like, oh, well now I’ve seen the whole game. Like this is all there is to this game. And so I really wouldn’t want to own it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t think I would want to own any of these machines, but most nostalgic for, um, the star

⏹️ ▶️ John Wars sit down game after burner, which was impressive when it first came out, especially with the one that

⏹️ ▶️ John you move around inside the thing. It was one of the first 50, 50 cent games I can remember. classics

⏹️ ▶️ John centipede Galaga I like time pilot is a weird one called section Z sidearm

⏹️ ▶️ John this was a totally weird one that I still think is awesome I have all I’m probably on MAME now though, so I don’t need to own any of these machines.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nice.

Neutral season 2?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nuclear Eclipse asks, this is John Reese, when will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you record Neutral Season 2? My official answer is we’ve been recording it for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the last like three years in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco aftershows of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this show. My unofficial answer is not soon enough. John, let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go to you first.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you answered it. There’s no Neutral Season 2. You’re listening to it. This is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Yep. and done.

Would an iOS laptop be viable?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Krusty the Clown writes, do you think an iOS laptop would be a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey viable product, i.e. an iBook? I was hoping Apple would announce it at WWDC, but it didn’t happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Isn’t that kind of what an iPad Pro is? Like I understand, or well, I presume that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Roger Escobar’s person who wrote in is asking something that has the physical, like connected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey keyboard and screen that you can never separate the two. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel like an iPad Pro is so close to there that it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, is it not?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Okay, so I’ve never owned an iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay, well that’s the thing, I’ve never owned an iPad Pro, so learn me, show me why I’m wrong. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I have, I’ve now had the 9.7 Pro and the 10.5, and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep it always in the keyboard cover, almost always on the Apple keyboard cover. And there are other keyboard covers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that kind of make it a little bit more laptop-like, but they’re mostly not that great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco For the way some people use it, and I’m one of these people,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would use that. I would buy that product because I always want the keyboard. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard is what made iPads usable for me, as simple as that. I do occasionally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go on the couch and fold the keyboard back behind it and try to use it without it, and I hate it. I always end up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco folding it back out and trying to use it on my lap, which is awful because it’s all floppy and back-weighted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything. So I would say this is not a huge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco market probably, but if they did it, I would certainly buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it that way because iOS for me, part of the reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why it feels so hobbled to me so often is the lack of a keyboard when I’m on my phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or when I’m on an iPad without that. So that’s why for me, the keyboard really has made a huge difference for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me in making iOS on the iPad and making the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth having and worth keeping out in my kitchen all the time. So a clamshell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version of that would be welcome. But I honestly, I would be very surprised if they did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John?

⏹️ ▶️ John This is whether it would be a viable product. And I think it totally would. Like as iOS expands its functionality to solve

⏹️ ▶️ John some of the same problems that are currently only or best solved by a Mac today, it inevitably has to come

⏹️ ▶️ John into that area because it’s a proven form factor. People like that

⏹️ ▶️ John form factor. It’s just a question of, oh, can you combine that form factor with a bunch of other things, software

⏹️ ▶️ John and battery life and cost and other trade-offs to make a compelling product? Yes, you totally can. Yeah, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John you could do it with iOS today, but certainly as iOS continues to get more sophisticated. So it would be a viable product.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whether how soon Apple will do it, I don’t know.

Podcast payment middlemen?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Chance Rubbage writes in to ask, more and more podcasts are going behind paywalls. Is it a good idea

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Apple to enable a tip jar or in-app purchase for podcasts? I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t see how that could really work out, especially since it would presumably be locked to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Apple Podcasts app. And even if you could just magically snap your fingers and make that work across

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any podcast app anywhere, I don’t know, I think it would help the smaller podcasts,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but for something like us, I don’t know that it would, And not to say we’re like, sorry, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey implies that we’re like a 99% invisible. We’re not that either, but like a mid

⏹️ ▶️ Casey level, if you, if we can generously call ourselves that like a mid level show like this one, I don’t know that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it would make a big difference. Uh, let’s go to John first.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple implementing it as the problem here, because, uh, having a way for

⏹️ ▶️ John people to do a tip jar in app purchases for podcasts, that would be a good thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John because the ability to do more business models more easily lets different shows find different

⏹️ ▶️ John ways to fund themselves. Depends on the show and the audience and so on and so forth. But having it be an Apple thing is bad because

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the great benefits of podcasts is they’re not owned and controlled by a single corporation

⏹️ ▶️ John to the degree that a lot of other things are. And so I wouldn’t want Apple to do this because

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re wildly successful, it’s a problem. And if they’re not successful, then what the heck was even the point? You don’t allow

⏹️ ▶️ John more business models. I would love for there to be standards that

⏹️ ▶️ John clients would work with across multiple platforms, just like RSS is a standard that clients

⏹️ ▶️ John work with across multiple platforms to distribute podcasts. If there was a similar

⏹️ ▶️ John open cross-platform standard for enabling different kinds of business models, that would be great, but guess who’s motivated

⏹️ ▶️ John to make such a thing? Not Apple and not a lot of other companies too.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say also, this question starts with the statement, more and more podcasts are going behind paywalls.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This sounds like a big trend, but I don’t think it is much of one, really. I think the only podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that have actually succeeded in going behind paywalls, for the most part, are the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones that monetize their back catalogs, that are fairly timeless, and that you can either

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use their own possibly paid app or pay for some membership to download like archived

⏹️ ▶️ Marco older episodes, but then the current ones are still free. That’s a way more common thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even that doesn’t work for every show. Like that only works for shows that are timeless. It doesn’t it wouldn’t work for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a show like ours where we talk mostly about news. You know, so it’s like that whole like I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of podcasts overall are going behind paywalls and in the traditional sense of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t listen to this unless you pay us. The fact is, that’s really hard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really hard to grow an audience if you’re behind a paywall. As I mean, you look around the whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rest of the web, lots of news sites and everything have tried paywalls. Very few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have succeeded because of this problem. And the ones that have, have these kind of porous

⏹️ ▶️ Marco paywalls where you can get a bunch for free up front and then you might have to pay us or clear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your cookies. Or you have to pay us to read all of our articles unless you come from Google or Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s all sorts of these holes because paywalls are really hard to make work.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Podcasts have survived and thrived and grown all this time driven

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost entirely by advertising the exact same way most websites have always funded themselves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for all the same reasons. That it’s really, again, it’s hard to grow an audience if you’re making people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pay on the way in. And it’s generally easier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to sell ads than to do that, and advertisers will typically pay more than your audience will.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I don’t really think this is a big problem, either a trend that is happening

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something that really needs to be explored that much. So that being said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if Apple were to enable tip jars or in-app purchases for podcasts, I’ve honestly, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have thought about doing this in Overcast before. I’ve talked to podcasters about it. The overall conclusion I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reached is that that would be a very messy business to be in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that for the most part, podcasters now, because there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco isn’t a big centralized system run by Apple anywhere else, podcasters now have found

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways to monetize their podcasts on their own. Ways that they own, ways that they control.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco People have Patreons, people have memberships, some people just do ads like we do, some people do some combination thereof.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the point is that no one’s involved. There is no middleman. There is no Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco skimming 30% off the top and making everything go through them and disallowing everything else like the way there is in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps. There is no middleman. When I talked to podcasters when I was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinking about doing something like this in Overcast, the universal response was, we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t want anyone else handling our money for us. We don’t want anyone else getting between our audience and us.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Me or Apple or anybody else. No one wanted that. And I would say,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what if I started collecting money and I just distributed it to you, readability style? Would you go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that? And the universal response was kind of like, yeah, I guess I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco take the money, but I wouldn’t promote it because if I’m going to promote something, I want to promote my own membership thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my own site or my own Patreon or whatever else. Everybody wanted to do their own thing with their own money

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they don’t want middle people to come in and collect money on their behalf.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re not doing them a favor by doing that. So ultimately, I see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why this question is asked, and it’s going to keep being asked like every six months

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the next 10 years, as everyone thinks about these things with podcasts. But I just don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is really a big problem. And I don’t think anybody wants a huge middleman

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to come in and get in the way between them and their customers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And things like Patreon are a middleman as well, but they’re divorced from podcasting. It’s something about Patreon that is podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John specific. So it’s just a question of, how do you find a way to fund the thing that you’re doing? And you have all these tools. Stripe

⏹️ ▶️ John is a middleman there. Like if they’re taking a percentage of your transactions or anything. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s always going to be people taking a percentage of transactions. But in the world of podcasting,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s nice to not have, oh, you have to do it this way because this is how podcasts are sold. You want

⏹️ ▶️ John to use Stripe, you want to use Patreon, you want to use Kickstarter, you want to solicit donations

⏹️ ▶️ John on your web page and use any one of those services. None of those are tied to podcasting and are interested

⏹️ ▶️ John to the podcast ecosystem or, you know, force you to do something. Unlike for example, the app

⏹️ ▶️ John store where Apple absolutely controls how you can pay for your, you can collect money for your applications.

What streaming services do we use?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Chris Adamson writes, what streaming services other than Netflix do you guys use? Does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Syracuse have a Crunchyroll subscription? So actually, let’s start with John and then we’ll end with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I saw this question I was trying to think of. I mean, I do subscribe to Hulu. I subscribe to Amazon Prime.

⏹️ ▶️ John I do not have a Crunchyroll subscription, but I have had one in the past. Maybe there’s other

⏹️ ▶️ John ones. I honestly, I thought about it the other day. I should catalog

⏹️ ▶️ John all the things I’ve subscribed to. So I am aware right around the line of Eel

⏹️ ▶️ John style of not having too many subscriptions, but they’ve been creeping in. Like I mean for

⏹️ ▶️ John things like Hulu it’s like, oh I want to see The Handmaid’s Tale so I’ll subscribe to Hulu, but now I just have a Hulu

⏹️ ▶️ John subscription forever because I find other shows that I want to watch. I already watched The Good Place on there. There’s other

⏹️ ▶️ John things I’m going to watch on Hulu, right? This can’t continue indefinitely because I will be

⏹️ ▶️ John end up, you know, I got to add up all those five, ten, whatever dollars a month and see what they’re at. Oh, it’s HBO?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, no, but that’s part of my cable. I don’t know. Too many, I guess, is my answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steve McLaughlin Fair enough. Marco? Marco Marconi For us, it’s just Netflix and HBO

⏹️ ▶️ Marco GO or NOW, whichever one is, you know, the one that doesn’t require a cable. Those two, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Steve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey McLaughlin Yeah, for us, it’s Netflix. And we are Amazon Prime members by virtue, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Prime Video members by virtue of Amazon Prime. Marco Marconi Oh, yeah, us too. Never use it. Yeah, and that’s the thing like outside

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the Grand Tour we never use it and I probably would have subscribed to Prime Video Specifically for the Grand Tour

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then regretted it because Grand Tour was terrible Let’s see.

Mac Plus over Apple IIgs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exelf writes in do I have a real name here? Sorry, a little fancy spreadsheet doesn’t catch real

⏹️ ▶️ Casey names as Alf Rydin writes in I’m standing in the computer store in my local mall before Christmas 1986

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John sell me on a Mac Plus over the Apple 2gs. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ John The pixels are the size of boulders on the Apple 2gs The number of amazing games that

⏹️ ▶️ John are you’ll have to play on the Mac Plus will impress any Apple 2gs Yes

⏹️ ▶️ John I know the two GS is color, but a the Mac is future and be the pixels are tiny and

⏹️ ▶️ John See the Mac has incredible amount of charm like it’s it’s no

⏹️ ▶️ John contest if you have the money As they say if you have the means I highly recommend one do not

⏹️ ▶️ John do the Apple to GS. It is a dead end

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was Ferris Bueller by the way All right.

How did we meet?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Melvin Gundlach writes in how did you initially meet and what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got you started making podcasts together? Bits and pieces of this story have been told many many

⏹️ ▶️ Casey many times in the past So I’ll try to give the chief summarizer in chief version

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco and I met when we were little kids Your parents or grandparents it isn’t entirely important

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had a house that was on a small lake in upstate New York my grandparents had a had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a different house on the same small lake in upstate New York and And we would hang out over the summers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because basically we were the only kids that were there. And we kind of fell out of touch, not in an angry way,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just in a, you know, we were kids and we grew up kind of way. And I think one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us would email the other from time to time over the years. And then shortly after, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was after we both got married, so not too terribly long after college, one of us reached out to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other. If I recall correctly, each of us blames the other for doing this in both the good way and the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ha-ha way. But anyway, somehow or another we fell back in touch and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we just kind of rekindled our friendship from forever ago. So of the people that I still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talk to, Marco and our now mutual friend, Brad Lautenbach, who works for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Light, they are my two oldest friends that I’ve known for about the same amount of time and it’s been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something like 20 years now. So fast forward to WWDC 2011, 2012, I forget which one it was. I want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say it was 2011. Marco and I are in line for the keynote,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I forget if John Syracuse walked up to us or Marco found John, but one way or another, John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey found us and we found John, and we hung out for the rest of the day, and then John and I kind of became

⏹️ ▶️ Casey friendly after that. And around the time that Build and Analyze ended

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in late 2012, I guess it was, I had started needling Marco about, hey, we should do a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey car show. We should do a car show. Even if nobody listens to it, it’ll still be fun. We should do a car show. Spoiler alert,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nobody listened to it. But anyway, Marco had the presence of mind to say, you know, Hypercritical

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just ended. I wonder if John would do it too, because he likes cars. And so that’s how Neutral got started. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then we would, as three nerds are off to do, we would start talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nerdy stuff after the fact. And Marco, similar story, had the presence of mind to put that on SoundCloud,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which by the time you listen to this may not even exist anymore. And so he put those episodes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on SoundCloud. And we realized, well, people actually like when we talk about things we sort of know about. and people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are not that interested in us pontificating about cars, of which we know nothing about. So maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we should stop with the car thing and start with the tech thing. And that’s kind of the super abridged version of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how this all came to be. And so ATP really became a thing, I think, in March of 2013.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And here we are in the middle of 2017. It’s still a thing. So let’s start with Marco. Any other thoughts to add? And then John after

⏹️ ▶️ Casey him.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Only that this is now one of the longest jobs I’ve ever held. to paper was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco longer. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey caught me while I was taking a sip of water. Oh my God. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco almost died just now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey done. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Instapaper was about five years. So we’re in year four now for this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that mean the clock is ticking or should I get worried?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey celebrate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Once this becomes the longest job I’ve ever held, which I’m pretty sure will happen, then I will celebrate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. John, any other thoughts?

⏹️ ▶️ John I continue to protest the characterization of not knowing anything about cars. Speak for yourselves.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know a lot about cars.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. I can’t really argue with that. Alright, let’s see what else

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is good. And what else is going on?

Do we tape our webcams?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s get here. Do you tape your webcams, gentlemen? John, do you put tape over your webcam?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope. Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Same here.

Happy with Go?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, are you still and this is a question from Mark.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Mark to Marco, are you still happy choosing go for the overcast back end?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, not really. But so first of all, only a very small part of the overcast back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end is in go most of it is still PHP. There’s simply a separate go process

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the feed crawlers. And they don’t even it doesn’t even do the whole process. It just pulls

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole bunch of feeds and fetches their contents for changes if they don’t report

⏹️ ▶️ Marco based on with the cache headers. And then if it detects a changed feed, it then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuffs the contents of that feed into a queue, which is processed by PHP

⏹️ ▶️ Marco consumers. And the whole web app is all PHP. So I would not even say I have a Go backend.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have one Go component in the backend. And Go is an interesting language.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure a lot of people like it a lot. I it a lot for certain things, but it’s very cumbersome

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do complex things. So it’s really great for what I’m using it now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for, which is something that is a fairly simple task that you need to be really fast,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you need to have a certain concurrency story there, but I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not want to write, now that I’ve gotten to know the language a bit enough to do this, I would definitely not want to write

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole web app of complexity using Go just because simple things are cumbersome

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do.

How did T-shirts go?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we only have time for a few more because I’m about to die. And so let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey choose a few. Oh god I’m so sorry. I don’t know how to pronounce this but Joshin Marshall,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so so sorry How did you or how did this year’s ATP t-shirt campaign work out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for you? I’m happy to share my not-so-good experience This is another example of doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something nicely that could have taken a terrible turn So the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the shirts are a tough thing, right Because right now we kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of have two choices. We can use a company that has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a printing press, if you will, in Europe, but doesn’t seem

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do the best with fulfillment and oftentimes has problems.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or we can use a company that is only based out of the U S which kind of screws the Europeans,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but is way more reliable. And we’ve fluttered back and forth

⏹️ ▶️ Casey between these two options. I will only speak for myself and say I will probably petition

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the U.S.-only company next year and understand completely if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a $90 t-shirt is just too darn much money to ask for from the Europeans because in some cases, like with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey import tax and VAT or whatever that stuff is called, it got to be unbelievably expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I am deeply sorry for that, I really truly am, but I’d rather

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have everyone have a good experience and just decide whether or not it’s worth the money to them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than having a really crummy experience. So this is your warning, Europeans, right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now, that whenever we do T-shirts next, it’s probably going to be expensive and I am sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, any other thoughts?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it was that bad this year. We sold a lot of shirts and there’s some percentage where there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John going to be problems. I’m more happy having more,

⏹️ ▶️ John the larger number of people who are happy with the shirts that they got across the whole world, even if it

⏹️ ▶️ John also means a proportionally larger number of people who are unhappy, because I’m presuming the unhappy people can

⏹️ ▶️ John at least at the very least get their money back. But it is a trade off and we’ve tried it both ways

⏹️ ▶️ John and people complain either way and who knows what we’ll do. The problem is, the problem is that this is not, you know, this is

⏹️ ▶️ John not our core competency. We are not a t-shirt generating enterprise. We are a podcast generating

⏹️ ▶️ John enterprise that once a year does this silly thing with T-shirts. So the right way to do this is like, oh, you gotta do it all in-house,

⏹️ ▶️ John but we’re not a corporation here, we’re just three people. So every year, these three people

⏹️ ▶️ John try to figure out how to do T-shirts in

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey a way that

⏹️ ▶️ John makes sense for everybody involved, and we have varying degrees of success, and guess what, we’re gonna try again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, any other thoughts?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m with you, Casey, and I would go a little further to say, So basically,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll name names here. Cotton Bureau does great work. They have awesome quality.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have awesome people who are there who help with the designs or often do the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco designs. They designed our ATP Rainbow M logo kind of thing. They designed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that themselves without even us telling them. They are great and they do great work.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yeah, their international shipping’s really expensive because they print here in the US. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Teespring, which is what we used this year and a couple years ago also, Teespring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has printers in multiple locations around the world. We’ve had lots

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of problems though with Teespring. So it is cheaper, and we actually make more money from the Teespring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shirts, usually, I think. But I would go as far as to say right now on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the record, I don’t think I ever want to use Teespring again after this year. Because in the past, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quality issue was a single large mistake. It was like when we had that wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Marco font on the source code on the back of the shirt. That was a single large mistake

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we worked with them, they corrected it, they sent everybody new shirts. It was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one mistake, one big mistake that was fixable. This year, the problem,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know what has changed at Teespring. I know there was an article about they were having layoffs or something, so I don’t know what’s going on over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there. I don’t pay attention. But this year, it was like a large number different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco diffuse small problems. Like, even like the shirts I ordered,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have bad printing on like two of the four shirts that I ordered. There were things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like missing colors, things like misalignment where like the logo was slightly slanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco instead of being aligned properly, like stuff like that. Just a lot of like small diffuse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco issues with Teespring this year that it seems like maybe they have more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco printers. I don’t know what the deal is, but it was is the kind of problem that you can’t really just go to them and have them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fix. You can’t go to them and say, hey, like a third of these shirts from random color combinations

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and places are weird in different ways and they’re all inconsistent. Like they’re not going to be able to fix

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. So I would rather, you know, going back to what Keith said, I would rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have something that I at least know is a good product that is at least coming out right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and coming out, you know, with high quality, even if it costs too much for some people to be able to justify.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather sell that than to do what we had this year and see people sending in pictures

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the shirt they were so excited to get and I see like it’s missing a color or it’s slanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or it’s a bad print job, bad ink. That crushes me. I cannot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deal with that again. I would not want to do Teespring anymore and I don’t care what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does. I’d rather not sell t-shirts than sell Teespring t-shirts again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’m pretty similar in that feeling.

Why does Marco read the ads?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, since you were just talking, let’s have you talk a little more. Why do you do all the ad reads?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s by Phil Cohen, by the way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just kind of do. We never really talked about it. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey just kind of do it. That was exactly my answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It just was the way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it started with neutral.

⏹️ ▶️ John The short answer is that I don’t want to do them, and Casey doesn’t want to do them,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco does them. And so neither of us are going to go, hey, Marco, can we do

⏹️ ▶️ John that thing that neither of us want to do? to let Marco do it. So basically, it’s because Marco is nice enough to do them

⏹️ ▶️ John and Casey and I are nice enough to let him.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I think I started out that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I used to sell them directly myself at the beginning. So it started out that I was selling them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it just made sense for me to also read them because I was talking to the sponsors and learning what they wanted me to say and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else. These days, I think anybody could do it. But yeah, I do it and I don’t mind doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it and it’s part of my workflow and it’s totally fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John And also part of the thing, like this is true in a lot of relationship situations, very often

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s one person that cares more about something than somebody else. And I have a feeling Marco cares more about the ad reads than either

⏹️ ▶️ John one of us do.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Certainly more than I do. The way, the way, how much

⏹️ ▶️ John tweaking he does to the ad copy and getting it so that he’s happy with it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that is a factor. I think if either one of us did ad reads, we would do it in a way that Marco does not find

⏹️ ▶️ John satisfactory.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Definitely. That is, that is a good point. and I’ll see you next time.

Explaining John’s bagel love

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, I think this is going to be the last question and it should be a good

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one. Hans Schrader writes in, I’m from Europe. Could John explain for a foreigner why he is so touchy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the subject of bagels?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m going to explain to Casey why he should select the question that I highlighted in yellow in the spreadsheet as a final

⏹️ ▶️ John option.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only see but so much of the spreadsheet at once. My word.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Oh, I’m sorry. Row 100.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I am nowhere near there. That’s why I skipped it. Okay, so the answer to the question is, the answer to the question that John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey isn’t answering is there are good bagels and there are things that vaguely resemble bagels

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and John and I both have reasons to prefer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John actually. Do you want me to actually answer this one? Because I can answer it. Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John please do. So this is a very simple thing. Everyone has foods that they

⏹️ ▶️ John ate growing up that are like regional or local to their family or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John that they’re nostalgic for. Like I want to have the ex that I had when I was a child. That’s a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And bagels are like that for me, only bagels are pretty widely regional to the New York metro area.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I grew up with the expectation that I can get bagels that taste

⏹️ ▶️ John in a certain way and pizza that tastes a certain way pretty much anywhere. And as

⏹️ ▶️ John a sheltered child who didn’t travel too much, I assumed this was true everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John in the United States. But then when I went off to college, I learned this is not true. And even just up

⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit farther north and east, everything I got that people called a bagel didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John taste like the things that I ate when I was growing up. And I’d go back to New York and say, no, they’re still there, but nobody else has them. And

⏹️ ▶️ John same thing with pizza. So it’s basically, that’s why it’s important that bagels

⏹️ ▶️ John are made a certain way in the region where I grew up. And because that’s sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John their entry point into the US, they have some stake in saying this is the way the bagels are quote unquote supposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to taste, right? that I can’t get them where I currently live, so that’s why I’m nostalgic for them.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s it. Same thing with pizza. Pizza’s actually probably worse than bagels, but both of them I miss. But when I was on Long Island,

⏹️ ▶️ John I had both. Yeah, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasonable for me. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Betterment, Warby Parker, and Squarespace.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will see you next week!

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the show

⏹️ ▶️ John is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you can find the show notes at,

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, Auntie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, accidental They didn’t mean to,

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, accidental Tech podcasts so

⏹️ ▶️ John long

Post-show: Zelda progress?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so the Zelda question is the one you want John

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the one in yellow I mean, it’s not it’s not enough material for an after-show. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t I have flux on so I can’t tell what the Hell’s yellow right now. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John God, I’m blind. Oh god. I’m the problem

⏹️ ▶️ John say Fluxes, I don’t like those things. We can’t even tell yellow.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. All right, Vincent scovered scurved Vincent scurved I’ll get this one day

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. So what is your what is the status on your breath of the wild progression? Did you finish every aspect of the game, et cetera,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as I did with most questions? I’ll start this off. I still very much enjoy the game, but haven’t played

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it in probably like a month and a half. I have just been incredibly busy lately and,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, haven’t had a chance to sit down with it. And also I think we discussed on the show at some point,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am not very good at picking the game up and remembering exactly what I was doing when I put it down.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I’ll have like a particular task or mission or thing I want to accomplish, which sometimes is like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, one of the official game tasks, but sometimes it’s like, Oh, I want to go and get myself ready for this game

⏹️ ▶️ Casey task by going across the map and doing such and such thing or whatever the case may be. And then I never write it down and completely forget.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then I get frustrated when I pick the game back up because I’m, I have no memory and need to like reestablish

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where I am and what I’m doing. That’s my two cents. Marco, let’s talk. Are you playing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Zelda at all?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. All right. Moving on to John.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, Marco can give us a tip update. How is she doing it?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t know Adam.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John They’re they’re playing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it sometimes. I can’t tell you how far they I have no idea

⏹️ ▶️ John Try to participate in your family Marco sit down There watch you play your stupid Sonic

⏹️ ▶️ John games Okay,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I watch sometimes, but I have I have no idea how to communicate to you how far they are

⏹️ ▶️ John So for me in Breath of the Wild I I don’t usually 100% games. I have 100% did many Zelda’s

⏹️ ▶️ John That series I play a lot. I like a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s a chance. I would have 100% did breath of the wild if it wasn’t for the Corax seeds

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think I’m ever gonna do that. It’s just too many of them, but I have I’m coming close

⏹️ ▶️ John to doing every non seed thing in the non

⏹️ ▶️ John DLC portion of the game to the point where also I’ll be doing things like having every possible armor set

⏹️ ▶️ John also fully upgraded I’m getting close to that it’s like it’s within reach and I might end up doing it

⏹️ ▶️ John for the DLC I did the the was it the trial of the sword

⏹️ ▶️ John I did that so I’m a sort of fully charged up to 260 all the time which is awesome

⏹️ ▶️ John and also lasts a much longer time I did all the side quests in DLC so I’ve done everything of 100%

⏹️ ▶️ John of the DLC which was tiny or whatever it’s not a big deal and like I said I’m I’m don’t even have all the shrines left

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m in the hundreds but I’m within striking distance of 100%

⏹️ ▶️ John representing everything in the main game aside from the Korok seeds.