218: MagSafe Cups of Water19 Apr 2017
iTunes’ future, USB-C MagSafe, grading Nintendo, and a very special post-show.
- Follow up:
- APFS iOS app updates hit the app store
- Marco's Overcast hacks
- APFS free space
- Nvidia coming back to the Mac
- Kieran Healy's thoughts regarding Marco's comments about schedules
- Clips gets special treatment in the app store
- T-Shirts! will be available until April 26.
- We know what the site says. Trust us.
- Jet Black considerations
- Inverted Jenny
- Apple USB-C MagSafe patent
- Beginning of the end for iTunes?
- John's evaluation of Nintendo today
- Ending theme by Jonathan Mann
- Post-show: WWDC lunches
- Casey loves Odwalla... a lot. Really.
- Betterment: Investing made better.
- Jamf Now: Set up and protect your Apple devices at work, from anywhere. First 3 devices are free.
- MailRoute: Hosted spam and virus protection for email. Use this link for 10% off for the life of your account.
- Follow-up™: APFS app bugs
- Follow-up™: iOS partitions 🖼️
- Follow-up™: NVIDIA Macs?
- Apple Car caused Mac delays?
- Sponsor: MailRoute
- Clips bypasses permissions 🖼️
- T-shirts! 🖼️
- USB-C MagSafe patent 🖼️
- Sponsor: JAMF Now
- Apple Podcasts
- Sponsor: Betterment
- Grading Nintendo
- Ending theme
- Post-show: WWDC lunches 🖼️
⏹️ ▶️ John Top of the mornin’ to ya. Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah. I was not at all prepared for that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The best part about that is that that’s the very first time you’ve ever greeted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody on a Skype call.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that’s accurate. I really honestly… I’m not sure that was a greeting.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I guess technically you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John right, it is a greeting of a kind, but not meant that way. So is your beard gone or what?
⏹️ ▶️ John No. This is my fear. I was like, he’s gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John get back and he’s still gonna have it. You just don’t let it happen to you.
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna determine whether the… Oh no, this is a problem. It’s a big problem.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have started this morning in Ireland, the conclusion of a wonderful trip
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the OOLE conference. So I woke up this morning in Dublin. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now in the time zone that I was supposed to be used to, uh, two in the morning.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, and, uh, so we’ll see how this goes. Uh, I never really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shifted a hundred percent to the new time zone. So what has really happened is now just time has lost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all meaning and I’m just always tired but yet can’t sleep. So this should be interesting.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Delightful. I am overjoyed that you are this tired with respect because this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey means I have a prayer of going to bed somewhere near my normal bedtime
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I figured about an hour you’re gonna be like, uh, I gotta go. And then and then at this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey point, it’ll be great.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, he’s he’s he’s punch drunk. Now. He’s gonna be all loopy. He’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey gonna want to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, we’re having a holiday party. I gotta go. I’ll be right
⏹️ ▶️ John back. He’s high on life. I’m gonna go through the same thing that Margo’s going through only realized I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to come back and do a podcast. I’m gonna come back and go back to work.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s not fun.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco technically this is work for all of us, me
⏹️ ▶️ John Except some of us have other work.
Follow-up™: APFS app bugs
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s start the show as usual with some follow up copyright 2011. John Syracuse, APFS iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey app updates have hit the App Store. Tell us about this, John.
⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone’s telling us about them. They’re saying, Hey, guess what I downloaded the updated version
⏹️ ▶️ John of my new of my favorite app. And the top thing in the release notes was fixed APS file
⏹️ ▶️ John name issues. We have many, many
⏹️ ▶️ John many people sending us many applications that surprisingly feature your
⏹️ ▶️ John APFS in their release notes. So the update is happening,
⏹️ ▶️ John even though the update was seamless for users for developers, not exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually, I think I might have hit one of these problems. So in the recent version
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of overcast that’s in the store, as of like last week, I had to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco remove support for m4a chapters. And I forget whether I talked about on the show or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not was that I thought about here. No, you just tweeted about it. That’s right. Anyway, so so for a c
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash m for a slash mob john chapters, I had to remove support
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for them temporarily, at least until I can write my own parser because the Apple parser kept crashing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on some of the on a lot of the files that were that were doing and iOS, you know, there’s no
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way as far as I know, there’s no way for me to parse metadata, like in a separate process or anything so that if it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco crashes, my whole app doesn’t come down. And I think it’s the crashes seem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to start around the time the 10.3 beta started. So it would not surprise me if this was file system related.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the reason I had to do all this, it was kind of a crazy hack, I’ll try to tell quickly. Basically,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when overcast downloads its files, it downloads them with no extension. It just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco saves it as like, you know, a big ID number with no file extension, you know, no dot mp3 or anything.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The metadata parser from Apple and the API can only operate on a file name or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco URL cannot operate just like on a data blob. So it knows about the file name. And if that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco file name does not end in dot a C or dot m four, a, it doesn’t work right.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But only for those files. And if you if it’s an mp3, it needs to end in that to work right. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the, the solution I came up with was when Oh, and also, I don’t always
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the whole file. Sometimes I’m streaming the file. And so I have to just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco write out like the bit I have to a temp file, and then read the metadata from it and then read and then delete
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the temp file. And then to get around the extension issue. When I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reading the metadata from an M4A file, I create a symlink to it with a dot M4A
⏹️ ▶️ Marco extension, read the file name, read the data off of that, and then delete the symlink. And it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at those parts that I was getting a lot of crashes all of a sudden in 10.3. So something’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up with the way my app and or the metadata parsing library
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in iOS deals with me creating these symlinks or writing these little tiny temp files
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to disk that don’t actually include the whole file and it was causing the whole thing to crash sometimes. So I temporarily removed that support
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and left in only my own ID3 MP3 parser which supports MP3
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chapters which is what this show uses because that I can do all in memory with my own safe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for teens. But at some point I have to figure out how to reimplement support for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco AAC chapters. And for the lack of them, I apologize to the entire nation of Germany.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’m hoping to get that done quickly. But right now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a big problem with that. And I think it actually might be related to some bug somewhere, whether it’s minor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco apples, I’m not yet sure, regarding the file system, because it did not happen before 10.3.
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t you try switching from sim links to hard links and see if that just magically fixes it?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I was thinking that that’s, I’m not sure I want to even still be dealing with links. I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the better long term, well, the longest term fix is to write my own parser. But the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem is, without getting too far into this again, the AAC chapters
⏹️ ▶️ Marco format is completely undocumented and proprietary to Apple. You can,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve tried to figure it out on numerous times, on numerous occasions in the past, and I’ve gotten most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it, but it’s really, really tricky and really undocumented.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the bits of data that you need are all over the file. They aren’t even all up front.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, they’re interspersed throughout the entire file, because they’re, it’s structured
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in such a way that, like, as it’s playing a track, like, if it’s playing a stream of a track
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like if if say the chapter changes and the chapter includes a URL and an image then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the URL and image are like spliced into the stream at that point in the audio
⏹️ ▶️ Marco data so it might not like what so you can’t so exactly this is why this format sucks so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t even and that that same like splicing format also applies
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the titles of the chapters so you cannot build a table of contents reliably from an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco AAC chapter file unless you have the whole file because you have to skip through the whole thing to get all the titles
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. That’s bananas. Yes, I know. It’s a huge pain. In the MP3
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chapter format, it’s based on ID3 tags, which are very, very crude, but very,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very simple to deal with. And they have a lot of limitations. It’s very similar to like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco RSS versus Atom feed formats like back in the day. Like RSS is really simple,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hence the name, but you know it had some limitations. And Atom was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco designed to like be everything to everybody and as a result it’s overly complicated and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a huge pain in the butt and that’s that’s kind of mp3 versus the mob format
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is what a C and M for a that’s that’s all just renaming reading versions of the mob format
⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically asterisk but basically
⏹️ ▶️ John once again humans he’s trying to say move he means a file that ends in dot mo V just just so you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey not listening to this thing what is he even
⏹️ ▶️ John saying because I know that’s happening that’s a color isn’t it yeah mom has the most Ram
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway, that is my possible APFS bug in Overcast, and also why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody listening, why your chapters in MOV format podcasts might have stopped working in the recent
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that doesn’t sound like an APFS thing, but who knows? It is a new file system, and if it is related to… It’s not of
⏹️ ▶️ John the kind that people are talking about in the release notes, because they’re all talking about encoding, file name encoding issues, but I’m assuming when you make these temp
⏹️ ▶️ John files, you’re making them with ASCII file names, so it’s totally not an issue for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s like the file name is the ID number of the file,.m4a. Yeah. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the other possible quick solution, if I want to do just a quick solution, just save all the files as.m4a,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even when they’re not, and just, you know, have a migration that runs on the first launch of the new version that just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco renames them all and just doesn’t do any kind of hard linking or sim linking, just permanently leaves them as those names.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But then that will break the mp3 file decoder sometimes under certain conditions. So it’s like it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and the The m4a slash a slash mob slash move. Those are all like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that format is last time I checked it was like less than 5% of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all items in the iTunes directory. So it’s like I think I think you mean the Apple podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco directory. Oh god, you’re right. It’s been like two hours. All right. So yeah, in the in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple podcast directory, the vast majority well over 90% format is mp3.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So to do a whole bunch of work to accommodate AAC files in a special way, especially chapterized
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones, it’s a we’re talking a very small number of podcasts. I’m guessing off the top of my head the total number
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of podcasts that are both chapterized and m4a format
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that are listened to by anybody in overcast is probably less than a hundred maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even less than ten. And so it’s like it’s it’s a question of whether I actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco should do anything about this or not. But isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John of the podcast in Germany?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, and the Germans do use chapters heavily and a few of them do use AAC chapters,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but a lot of them use MP3 chapters or other formats that I don’t even support, like the pod love
⏹️ ▶️ Marco simple chapters format, which is a wonderful idea, but there’s just I don’t have a lot of market push to support
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it really yet. The idea behind that, by the way, I love simple chapters, which is the idea basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is to put the chapter information in the feed rather than in the individual files. And that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a great idea, but there’s almost no support for it on either side.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco On the producer side, on the CMS side, or on the podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app player side. So I don’t know what I’m going to do about that, if anything. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chapters, I don’t know. I waded into this chapter mess, and now I’m making a chapter tool. Now I’m in this chapter app,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and now I’m stuck with parsing chapters forever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Chapters all the way down.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is. I do love the Germans, though.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They are great. you back around.
Follow-up™: iOS partitions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talking more directly about APFS, Kyle Seth Gray, otherwise known as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Kyle’s the Gray, had tweeted at us a very interesting pair of screenshots.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So he writes, here’s my iOS disks before and after upgrading
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to 10.3. So it shows in the before that he has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a capacity or his disks are 86% full, 91% full, and 20% full. full. After upgrade, the same disks go
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from 86 to 40% from, uh, and then from 20 to 8%
⏹️ ▶️ Casey full, which means somewhere out of nowhere, he now has more free space. Thanks
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re looking at the wrong column in these screenshots. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. It’s a lot of numbers. We’ll put the link in the show. It’s a tweet and you can look at the screenshot. So the percentages
⏹️ ▶️ John are different, right? But I mean, this is a, this is the output of like DF or whatever. And
⏹️ ▶️ John the key thing to look at, like, so there are some partitions that are not interesting to us, like dev for the devfs
⏹️ ▶️ John and the one at the bottom, which is like a baseband data for wireless or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John But there are you can see the the OS and the user partitions and the key column is size
⏹️ ▶️ John before iOS 10. The size of the first one, which is mounted at slash is 4.3
⏹️ ▶️ John gigs. And that’s like the OS partition, I’m assuming. and the size of like the big one where all your stuff is,
⏹️ ▶️ John is 59 gigs. So 59 plus 4.3 gigs is like this is a 64 gig phone, right? And
⏹️ ▶️ John then you know, ancillary stuff left over for the other little partitions, right? After upgrade, the size
⏹️ ▶️ John iOS and the Your Stuff partition, both of them say 64 gigs. So
⏹️ ▶️ John the OS partition, it’s 64 gigs. And the user partition, it’s 64 gigs. It’s exactly what we were
⏹️ ▶️ John talking about. And this didn’t occur to me before when I was talking about the sizing because I couldn’t quite figure out numbers added up but this makes perfect sense
⏹️ ▶️ John if you have a 64 gig phone it does what we were saying in the example I show with like if you had a 1 gig disk and you put two 1
⏹️ ▶️ John gig partitions they have a 64 gig disk essentially in this phone and they put two 64
⏹️ ▶️ John gig partitions on it one of them for the OS and one of them for all the rest of your stuff which
⏹️ ▶️ John is a reasonable simplification because now they don’t have to like think about oh geez how big should the OS partition
⏹️ ▶️ John be like how big is our OS how much how much you know should we You know use this in the pre
⏹️ ▶️ John ios 10.3 state if the size of the os partition was 4.3 gigs But only 3.6 was used so they
⏹️ ▶️ John give themselves a little wiggle room like if the next os to update is a little bigger And they or they could resize the partitions
⏹️ ▶️ John But with APFS they don’t have to worry about exactly how to size partitions Both of them are 64
⏹️ ▶️ John gigs both of them have quote unquote the whole phone and that messes up
⏹️ ▶️ John the Capacity and how much is available measurements depending on
⏹️ ▶️ John how you are going to report this information.
⏹️ ▶️ John So that could explain these discrepancies that we were seeing before in particular if you have 55 gigs
⏹️ ▶️ John used and you think the thing is 64 gigs then you think you have more left than if it was a
⏹️ ▶️ John different size or it could just be DF totally confused by APFS. Either way free space in APFS is weird.
Follow-up™: NVIDIA Macs?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moving on Nvidia job posting suggest an Nvidia chip return to Apple Macs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I presume this is most interesting to you. So tell us about this.
⏹️ ▶️ John We talked last show about Nvidia releasing the Mac drivers for their new card
⏹️ ▶️ John for the whole line of top end cards, essentially, which is a weird thing to do because Apple doesn’t even sell a computer
⏹️ ▶️ John that you can stick an Nvidia card in just older ones that people might still have
⏹️ ▶️ John hanging around. And something was tickling my mind about this and a lot of people sent in this
⏹️ ▶️ John link from September 2016. Job posting. NVIDIA did
⏹️ ▶️ John a job post and they were looking for someone to be a software engineer at NVIDIA and the role would require, this
⏹️ ▶️ John is a quote from their job listing, working in partnership with Apple and writing code that will define
⏹️ ▶️ John and shape the future of graphics related software on Macs. So they were looking for this
⏹️ ▶️ John in September and now they’ve delivered a thing. So who knows when the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro decision was made, who knows when this decision was made, but clearly Nvidia made a decision that previously
⏹️ ▶️ John we weren’t doing much Mac stuff, but guess what, now we’re gonna. And again, it seems really weird
⏹️ ▶️ John that Nvidia would make that decision on its own because they have no market to sell into except
⏹️ ▶️ John for people with really old Macs. So, and especially this thing working in partnership with
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, certainly seems like Apple was talking Nvidia sometime
⏹️ ▶️ John on or before September 23rd 2016 saying you know come back we
⏹️ ▶️ John we miss you let’s let’s let’s kiss and make up whatever our problem was we want to get some of that
⏹️ ▶️ John sweet Pascal hardware and Macs someday and this could have been well before they even
⏹️ ▶️ John decided to keep making a Mac Pro so who knows maybe the iMac Pro will have Nvidia stuff in it I don’t know I’m getting my hopes up
⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit but anyway the mystery deepens but
⏹️ ▶️ John this wasn’t an overnight thing and I think it’s got to have it’s got to have some form of Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ John input because I don’t just don’t see any reason anybody would do this on song.
Apple Car caused Mac delays?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey A friend of the show, Kieran Healy, writes in regarding Marco at 43 minutes and 15 seconds
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the last episode, and we’ll put an overcast link in the show notes, quote, obviously
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something has changed with Apple’s thinking on release schedule since 2012. Around then,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything slowed down. This is paraphrased. Around then, everything slowed down, but now something has changed to make Apple flip around.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Kieran pontificates, I wonder if it was Project Titan, which is ostensibly the car project.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Perhaps it swallowed up a lot of resources. As last I heard, maybe nine months ago, it sounded like that was getting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least substantially scaled back. It was surprising not to hear on the show, but also
⏹️ ▶️ Casey elsewhere in the news coverage I read, any discussion of the possibility that the Apple Car Project was the black hole that absorbed hardware
⏹️ ▶️ Casey design talent and effort for two to three years with no results as yet. And that had significant
⏹️ ▶️ Casey opportunity costs for every piece of hardware the company makes apart from the iPhone. Thoughts on that?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Any kind of massive project like this, like Apple trying to make a car and then a self-driving
⏹️ ▶️ Marco car that’s going to draw talent from the rest of the company no question. However, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a large part of the talent that was or is working on that was probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from external sources. It’s probably like you know from external hires, from acquisitions, places
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. I don’t think the team that was working on the Mac Pro or would have updated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac Mini otherwise or was trying to ship new laptops two years earlier, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know I don’t think those people went to go work on the on the car project and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s why those things didn’t happen you know it’s probably more complicated than that uh… also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’d bet project titan has not actually gone away or anything uh… or necessarily
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been scaled back i think it was just rethought based on what we’ve actually heard uh… and what actually makes more sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but anyway i’m guessing that these are at least partially separate uh… that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the the product slowdown that we have seen was not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably a direct result of Project Titan sucking talent out of the company. I think it’s way more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco likely that it was a combination of operational screw-ups somewhere along the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way and also decisions up top that were basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco along the lines of, we don’t think these are worth doing.
⏹️ ▶️ John But with Project Titan being scaled back, regardless of the current size of it,
⏹️ ▶️ John it because of the change in direction that was rumored. I think a lot of people get laid off. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John we don’t need people who know how to build a car if we’re not building a car anymore. But all of a sudden we do need people
⏹️ ▶️ John who know how to write software that other people in the audio industry are going to consume or whatever. But yeah, the main
⏹️ ▶️ John reason I put this in the show is to ask the question, you know, people have this question a lot. I think we’ve talked about it a few times in the past,
⏹️ ▶️ John but you’re always looking for something to blame for the
⏹️ ▶️ John product that you want to be updated or worked on or become prominent
⏹️ ▶️ John not getting the attention it deserves. And it’s easy to blame it on the mysterious, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John potentially very large, uh, secret operation going on to make a car. But I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John on the same page with Marco. I think, um, projects like this do take talent away. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they take attention away attention to the executives and the attention of the employees. if any project
⏹️ ▶️ John was going to be it was going to contain
⏹️ ▶️ John a large proportion of new employees who are new to Apple or who would not be working on the Mac at all it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a car project because yeah there’s gonna be smart people who you like we want some of these people because they’re just smart people and they’re just
⏹️ ▶️ John good software people so we’ll definitely take them right but it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s not the same thing as for example when iOS stole a lot of of resources from
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac, because they’re the same core OS under the covers, right? And making a GUI
⏹️ ▶️ John operating system, even though one is touch and one is mouse, they’re so closely related. They share code, they share concepts
⏹️ ▶️ John of it, whereas the car is far enough away that I feel like the worst thing you can probably blame
⏹️ ▶️ John it for is distracting executives, perhaps. But I think it is a separate,
⏹️ ▶️ John a separate issue than why are Macs taking a long time to update all of a sudden? Or, you know, why, why are
⏹️ ▶️ John these other products being emphasized or deemphasized? I mean, if you want to blame anything, you blame like the watch or something like another project
⏹️ ▶️ John that is closer to the Mac than the car is to say, you know, because there was, you know, the
⏹️ ▶️ John watch was behind schedule a little bit according to the rumors of when Apple wanted it to be released. And there’s a little fire drill
⏹️ ▶️ John about software and all sorts of other stuff. So I don’t blame the car or the whatever
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Clips bypasses permissions
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey ♪ MailRoute.net.com ♪ In front of the show, Greg Pierce had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey noticed something interesting about the Clips app, which I was able to talk about briefly last episode before
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we dove into three hours of Mac Pro talk. He noted that Clips did not ask permission to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use his camera or microphone, and he said bad form, Apple, which I agree with.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Kay writes in reply to Greg, it’s a deliberate choice made by Apple. they granted
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Clips special entitlements to access camera, mic, contacts, etc. without asking. And there’s a screenshot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of what I believe to be, oh, it’s the entitlements of the Clips app and it has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a key com.apple.private.tcc.allow which has entries such as KTCC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey service photos and camera and microphone, etc. Which is an interesting special
⏹️ ▶️ Casey case that we aren’t allowed to do that blesses Clips and gives Clips access to your mic
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and camera and contacts and whatnot without the user actively having done so which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean obviously it’s Apple’s right to do that But I don’t know I kind of wish that they would just play by the same rules as everyone
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so this is not a new thing with Clips tons of Apple apps do this, but it’s just It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John worth highlighting again in case people didn’t know you know obviously Apple runs the platform They can do whatever the hell they want right and they
⏹️ ▶️ John do like I mean They put Xcode on the Mac App Store for crying out loud out like hex code is in
⏹️ ▶️ John slight violation of a couple of Mac App Store rules that
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey apply to other
⏹️ ▶️ John applications. But for this specific case, and for
⏹️ ▶️ John iOS apps like this in particular, I think like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John an interesting object lesson for the policies they have in that clearly someone
⏹️ ▶️ John at Apple who is making clips thought that not
⏹️ ▶️ John having to ask for permission to access the camera and the microphone and you know your contacts and
⏹️ ▶️ John and your photos uh and stuff like that is a better user experience for the app
⏹️ ▶️ John like forget about whether they have the ability to get rid of to put these secret entitlements in or not
⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s a design question is this app better when it asks for permission or is this app better when it doesn’t ask permission
⏹️ ▶️ John and it seems like this is an interface decision this is a nicer experience for users if we don’t ask for permission right
⏹️ ▶️ John um but because only apple gets to make that it’s kind of like they’re saying saying, not only do
⏹️ ▶️ John we have to get to do secret things you don’t get to do, but because we get to do those secret things, our applications
⏹️ ▶️ John have a nicer user experience than yours can ever have. Because the first thing you have to do on first launch is throw a bunch
⏹️ ▶️ John of dialogues in someone’s face and say, Can I do this? Can I do this? Can I do this? And users don’t like that. And we
⏹️ ▶️ John get to bypass that. But you, because you are untrustworthy, must have a worst user
⏹️ ▶️ John experience. And needless to say, the vast majority of applications downloaded
⏹️ ▶️ John from the app store not made by Apple. And so it’s like, every application except for apples has to
⏹️ ▶️ John have a worse user experience. I don’t know what the solution is because you do want applications asking for permission. You don’t want applications
⏹️ ▶️ John to be able to secretly use your camera and get your photos, right. But it’s an interesting dilemma
⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s like Apple, Apple is choosing not to eat its own dog food and follow its own rules,
⏹️ ▶️ John not because they’re flouting their power, because because I think they really believe this makes a better application. And so
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, I think this is evidence of a a perhaps a rethinking, even if
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just a very minor rethinking of how permission is asked for and granted, because perhaps the
⏹️ ▶️ John most obtrusive way to do anything on iOS is to throw a modal dialogue on top of everything. And I’m not sure what the
⏹️ ▶️ John answer is. Would it be better if it like slid down or had a different appearance? Would it be better if there was some other
⏹️ ▶️ John way that these permissions manifested? Maybe when you download the app, you could give it something or
⏹️ ▶️ John users could I don’t even I don’t know the solution is I just thought it was it highlighted this this
⏹️ ▶️ John user interface issue more so the technical thing because again tons of Apple apps do this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, a t-shirt update. So if you are listening to this episode either live
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or recorded, it doesn’t matter. You’re probably listening to it sometime before
⏹️ ▶️ Casey April 26th. If you are listening to this episode right now
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you want a t-shirt and you have not ordered it, please order it now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I cannot tell you the amount of times we’ve heard people say either, I had no idea
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the t-shirts were for sale or oh, I meant to get one, but then I just plum forgot Don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be that person order a t-shirt. Yes. This is incredibly self-serving Yes, I acknowledge that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I am so sick of people saying oh, I didn’t have any idea or oh, I forgot don’t forget
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Please if it’s April 26 of 2017 before April 26 of 2017, you’re listening to the show Please if you are interested buy a t-shirt now John
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can you give us a little bit of details on what’s going on with those because there’s been a couple of changes since
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but first, I have to remind myself to listen to your advice because for the past like week, I’ve been like, you know
⏹️ ▶️ John what, I need to order shirts to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I too have not ordered my shirts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Don’t be like us.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Okay, don’t be like us.
⏹️ ▶️ John We know when we stop selling these shirts, even we can’t order
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey them again. Yeah, that’s really true. Yeah, we
⏹️ ▶️ John will be out of luck. So here’s what happened since the last show I talked about how we might be changing things
⏹️ ▶️ John to instead of taking all of your orders for 20 something days and then you know after the sale
⏹️ ▶️ John ends sending this huge giant ship in their shirts out to everybody. Instead we might switch to
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of a continuous fulfillment type of thing and that is what we’ve done. It’s like an every three days type
⏹️ ▶️ John of thing and that manifests on the TeeSpring site saying this sale
⏹️ ▶️ John ends in two days this sale ends in one days and many people keep sending us tweets panicked. it says it
⏹️ ▶️ John ends in one day or in two days, but you said it was gonna end on the 26th. Very often these people have already ordered their
⏹️ ▶️ John shirt, they’re just trying to look out for other people to say, like, or look out for us and say, you might not know it, but you have your
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff misconfigured. Well, what happens is when it ends, it just immediately relaunches for another three day window.
⏹️ ▶️ John And this is gonna repeat until the 26th-ish. So don’t fret if it says you have two days remaining or one day
⏹️ ▶️ John remaining, look at the calendar. If it is the 26th or before, you can still order. If it’s after
⏹️ ▶️ John the 26th, take seriously any things you see on the site. This is just the way it works on the side.
⏹️ ▶️ John I wish we could have said continuous fulfillment, but with a definitive end date, but we can’t because this
⏹️ ▶️ John is not how the site works. So never fear, it’s a rolling cycle that repeats every three days-ish.
⏹️ ▶️ John And the other thing I wanted to mention, because Teespring itself mentioned it to us,
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the shirts that we sell in our bazillion different color varieties here, which by the way, we didn’t point this out, but
⏹️ ▶️ John we sort of did this accidentally, which is appropriate. Usually we have some kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John silly in-joke, Apple-related in-joke for our shirts for the past couple of years.
⏹️ ▶️ John This year, the silly unintentional in-joke was that our shirt
⏹️ ▶️ John names and the million varieties are like the million different varieties of Apple product names. It’s like MacBook,
⏹️ ▶️ John two USB ports, 2013, you know, late 2013 or whatever. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John what our shirts are like and we have a million different varieties. One of them is what we call the Jet Black shirt, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John obviously an allusion to the new phone color for the iPhone 7. And the Jet Black shirt
⏹️ ▶️ John is a black t-shirt, and the printing on it is also in black. And
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the joke. It’s completely black. If this is not clear to you that it is black
⏹️ ▶️ John printing on a black t-shirt, it will be basically invisible. Like, if you’re buying this shirt, and you get
⏹️ ▶️ John it, and you’re like, hey I can’t see anything on this shirt because it’s black ink printed on black that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the joke it’s a jet black it’s you know how much
⏹️ ▶️ John can the shirt be and the answer is none none more black which is a different joke
⏹️ ▶️ John or reference if not joke
⏹️ ▶️ John so teespring was encouraging us very strongly to not sell a shirt with black
⏹️ ▶️ John printing on black because customers get it and they’re angry because they can’t see anything on it and I had faith
⏹️ ▶️ John in our customers and say, I hope they get the joke that it’s a jet black shirt. And it does
⏹️ ▶️ John have black printing. And you can see it in the picture. Like it’s not a secret that it’s black printing on black.
⏹️ ▶️ John But needless to say, if you see that shirt, and you’re wondering, is this black printing on a black shirt? And will this be hard to see?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, it’s black printing on a black shirt, and it will be super duper hard to see. And that’s the joke. Enjoy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So if you’re listening to this, do not be like Casey, john and Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be us, be better than us, which is not a very hard thing to do.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Go to ATP dot fm slash shirt and buy you a shirt if you are so inclined.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That definitely helps us on the show and we thank you to anyone who has even considered doing so. But please
⏹️ ▶️ Casey blame only the mirror if you miss the window because this one’s on you.
⏹️ ▶️ John Although you should be like us in that in that when you actually do order shirts, you should order like five of them like all of us are gonna do.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s true. Like I’m getting ones for my kids for the first year. My daughter said she she might want one
⏹️ ▶️ John she likes the rainbow one like everybody like everybody else
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John didn’t you not even buy yourself the addition shirt two years ago that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John was me no I totally
⏹️ ▶️ John did I’ve got an addition
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m part of the elite are you kidding I was way too cheap to buy an addition Casey didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John buy an addition say let’s think about who’s actually cheap here I did buy an addition
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah that’s just don’t be like us
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John kids they just go
⏹️ ▶️ John they just go into the t-shirt museum though I haven’t actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worn it you know I think I’ve worn mine like twice like I’m afraid to wear it too much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t want to wear it out because it’s gold. It’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John valuable t-shirt. Almost as valuable as a Cottonboro cheap t-shirt shipped to Europe,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Sick burn. Sick burn. The real
⏹️ ▶️ John valuable t-shirt for people haven’t been keeping up with t-shirts is the very first t-shirt we ever printed where there was a printing error
⏹️ ▶️ John on it. And so everybody who got that t-shirt got like the equivalent of the upside down airplane on the stamp
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, right? Where it’s a misprinted incorrectly made shirt and then all those same people
⏹️ ▶️ John got a second shirt correctly printed for free. Yeah. So those people got two sheets for the
⏹️ ▶️ John shirts for the price of one and they also got a special collector’s item never to be reproduced printing error shirt.
⏹️ ▶️ John So kudos to those people put those into the shirt museum.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh goodness. All right. Any other follow up John the keeper of the follow up anything else you’d like to add.
⏹️ ▶️ John No we’re at the end you see it. You can see it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know John isn’t only the keeper of the follow-up. Mm-hmm.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m Pavley Credit. Mm. Ha ha
USB-C MagSafe patent
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Apple has apparently patented a USB-C
⏹️ ▶️ Casey MagSafe style adapter, which is super duper exciting for those of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey us like myself who, even though I don’t have a USB-C laptop, I can tell you I will miss having MagSafe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it saved my bacon a bunch of times. So do we have any thoughts on this?
⏹️ ▶️ John Why are you excited by it? That’s the first question.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel like I have had my laptop saved and or legs saved many many many
⏹️ ▶️ Casey times by The magsafe adapter that’s been on my laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my laptops So this looks like it would bring it back which would be great
⏹️ ▶️ John You need you know magsafe for cups of water, but they don’t have that
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I think you should
⏹️ ▶️ John not be excited about it is because as we’ve said many times Apple patents everything patents have no real Bearing on anything that Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John or produce especially if you see the patent before the product it’s a good chance that there’s not a product related to that. But the
⏹️ ▶️ John reason I put it in here is not because I think Apple will make such a thing, although Belkin and a few other companies
⏹️ ▶️ John actually do make this exact thing that you’re seeing here, which is like a little thing that plugs into USB-C and has a little MagSafe-y
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of magnet snap off-y thing on the end.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, Griffin is the one you’re thinking of. Oh, is it Griffin?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s, unfortunately, it’s not very well regarded.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but I mean, it’s the same idea, though. It’s just that the implementation may not be good because it is actually tricky to get this stuff right.
⏹️ ▶️ John The reason I think it’s interesting is because back when we knew they were dropping MagSafe, but none of us had actually seen the products yet, and
⏹️ ▶️ John we hadn’t really used the USB-C, we were like, well, you know, MagSafe is great and everybody loves it, but it is
⏹️ ▶️ John bigger, and maybe, maybe USB-C will, the connectors will just
⏹️ ▶️ John yank out just as easily as MagSafe does because it’s a whole new connector, it’s not like a big USB-A connector.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, who sees, who knows what it’ll be like. But now that we all have experience with USB-C, I think it’s pretty safe
⏹️ ▶️ John to say it does not come out as easily as MagSafe in any way shape or form
⏹️ ▶️ John and that the hazard of tripping over your cord that’s connected through USB-C to your laptop
⏹️ ▶️ John is back. It used to be mostly gone with MagSafe depending on the angle that you trip over
⏹️ ▶️ John it on but now the danger is back and I think USB-C
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like AirPods is one of those little things that seems like oh whatever you know wireless
⏹️ ▶️ John earphones or you know a magnet instead of plugging it in that seems nice but I I think MagSafe
⏹️ ▶️ John was mostly universally beloved. The only complaints I ever heard about MagSafe were from
⏹️ ▶️ John couch chargers, people who use their, you know, thing connected on the couch or like with a big comforter or blanket and they
⏹️ ▶️ John would say it was a little bit too loose and that like it would knock it out unintentionally. But that’s the only bad
⏹️ ▶️ John thing I’ve ever heard about MagSafe. And for a connector and a technology that looks, if
⏹️ ▶️ John you just, you know, look at it, it looks like weird and delicate in the same way that lightning does.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that like you look in it, it’s like so it’s a magnet and these you know this little tiny set of contacts inside there
⏹️ ▶️ John and all the power to this laptop is going through these tiny little pinprick point things
⏹️ ▶️ John that just seems so much less robust and what if stuff gets in there and so on and so forth but I’ve had MagSafe
⏹️ ▶️ John on many many devices and still have it on many of them and I still think it’s a great idea
⏹️ ▶️ John well executed again you know modulo the the looseness of like MagSafe 2
⏹️ ▶️ John and and other issues like that. And I think it’s pretty beloved. I think people like Apple products because
⏹️ ▶️ John they have MagSafe. It was another one of those Apple things like that makes it better than just a regular laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ John And when it went away, and when we discovered that there is no real replacement for it, it’s just like, well, that advantage is now gone.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, it was it was kind of it kind of made their laptops worse in a way in some tiny way, it made their laptops
⏹️ ▶️ John worse. And Apple having a patent like this makes me think that
⏹️ ▶️ John at the very least, inside the company they said can we go all usbc
⏹️ ▶️ John but also retain the advantages of magsafe somehow by you know by by the answer
⏹️ ▶️ John to everything that is the answer in the world of usbc which is let’s make an adapter and so and so they did
⏹️ ▶️ John and patented it but you know decided not to ship it for whatever reason because maybe it’s still kind of clunky
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever anyway all this is to say that i wish instead of doing this
⏹️ ▶️ John adapter and going usbc everywhere and they’re not shipping this adapter and leaving the third parties, I wish they
⏹️ ▶️ John had come up with MagSafe 3. If MagSafe is too big and clunky and your devices are getting thinner and
⏹️ ▶️ John thinner, can you come up with some other solution that also uses magnets that has all the same advantages? And
⏹️ ▶️ John we haven’t seen a patent for that, but clearly nothing they’ve shipped reflects that. Anyway, all I’m saying is I miss
⏹️ ▶️ John MagSafe, and I wish it would come back. And it seems like at least some contingent inside Apple also misses MagSafe
⏹️ ▶️ John because they tried to do something to bring it back.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you’re gonna do MagSafe on USB-C, the solution
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not to have this weird little stick-out, like half-inch long adapter
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you need to also have with you or stick on your cables and have that break away. No.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That, that’s like, anything that involves like a rigid adapter against a USB
⏹️ ▶️ Marco port, I think is not a good idea long-term because it so easily just like, you know, breaks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off in the port or something else. Like all those USB hubs that were designed first for the MacBook One that like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally just like Attached right next to it like flush against the case and have this big long
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hub down the side like that’s just asking for it to to like to have your knee push against that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something and have the End of the cable snap off into the into the socket like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything like that I think it’s a bad idea And I think the the relatively mediocre reception of the Griffin
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing that looks just like this is, I think, reinforcing of that to me. If you’re going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have this problem you have now, which is you’re not going to have a dedicated magnetic charging port
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anymore, you’re just going to charge through any USB-C port, then you can’t make them all magnetic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because, you know, that’s not how USB-C works. But you can do an innovation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Microsoft figured out in 2001, I think, which is whenever the Xbox One came out. And I don’t mean
⏹️ ▶️ Marco e I mean the Xbox number one the first Xbox
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey and that was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you put the magnetic splitter thing a few inches away From the console in the cable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know in a similar location that many cables would have one of those You know drum like those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco drum shape like magnetic Interference reducer things you know Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know a few inches from the connector head you have a little like Breakaway thing that if you pull it the wrong
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way it opens up It’s like MagSafe you know six inches into a cable basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That worked great on the Xbox and I’m sure, you know, it wouldn’t be like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the most like visually pristine thing but neither are these, neither is like this world full of crazy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco adapters we have now. The adapters are all ugly and stupid and clunky, right? So if you move
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it away from the port by a few inches onto the cable you have all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same safeties of MagSafe but you get it away from the laptop body it then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco works fine on any USB-C port and it doesn’t require the of these little fragile adapters.
⏹️ ▶️ John Back when we talked about this originally, this actually wasn’t the most popular one,
⏹️ ▶️ John although you did bring it up back then too because you have this absurd love for that huge console. It
⏹️ ▶️ John was a great console. Uh-huh, uh-huh. The most common thing that people brought up
⏹️ ▶️ John was the opposite of having the magnetic thing at the other end, like at
⏹️ ▶️ John the other far end, rather than in the middle somewhere. Like basically at the part where it plugs into the
⏹️ ▶️ John white brick thingy. But I think both middle
⏹️ ▶️ John and the other end are worse solutions than just MagSafe 3 on the laptop because
⏹️ ▶️ John middle and the other end are both much more likely to be in inaccessible places.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know the end that’s where the laptop is as accessible because you can get at the laptop, right? You put a laptop on a desk,
⏹️ ▶️ John you have to be able to reach the laptop to type on it and use the trackpad. That means you can also reach the part where you plug
⏹️ ▶️ John and unplug the little plug thing. And if it becomes undone because you yank
⏹️ ▶️ John it or something knocks or whatever, you just plug it right back in. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ John part of the experience with MagSafe that makes it good is not just the breakaway ability, but that it is a pleasing way to connect
⏹️ ▶️ John and disconnect with the little magnet, which is a frequent operation. Infrequently, someone will trip over it. Very frequently,
⏹️ ▶️ John you will plug and unplug it. And I think it’s more pleasant to plug, even just being able to yank it out
⏹️ ▶️ John to unplug it and not having to be careful or slide straight out worry about bending or whatever. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John part of what I love about MagSafe and it’s part of the reason why I don’t like middle because who can get at the
⏹️ ▶️ John middle when someone does trip over it and like some end of it is gonna tuck behind something’s gonna be a pain in the butt to try to find it
⏹️ ▶️ John again. I don’t like the other end because the other end is probably in a power brick that’s either in a wall socket or at least close to it
⏹️ ▶️ John also harder to get to and middle is ugly because you know it’s it’s it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John Johnny I would never like it doesn’t like the big bulge in the middle of things. So I still come down Strongly in favor of MagSafe 3
⏹️ ▶️ John as in have an actual MagSafe port on the laptops and have a MagSafe thing that plugs into It
⏹️ ▶️ John just make it a new size That fits in I mean if you make it the size of USB C Then you’re like well this will last as
⏹️ ▶️ John long as USB C does because as soon as we’re too thin for USB C We would have been in the same situation anyway
⏹️ ▶️ John But instead Apple has done nothing including not shipping this adapter and as Marco said
⏹️ ▶️ John the one that is out There does not get good reviews It doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to make a good adapter just means that one
⏹️ ▶️ John is not as good as real magsafe was.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So there was an interesting development today as we record this, if I’m not mistaken, which as you’re listening to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this might be like a week ago, but today it was announced that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s official. iTunes podcasts is now Apple podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and there’s new badges that you can use and so on and so forth. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Jason Snell has started to wonder, is this the beginning of the end
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for iTunes? And what does that really mean? So I don’t, I don’t,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I certainly don’t know. I can’t say I would be bitter if iTunes either went
⏹️ ▶️ Casey away or more accurately, the app just got split up several ways. But I mean, this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some pretty heavy reading of the tea leaves. What do you think, Marco?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, this all might be leading to something big or it might just be like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, iTunes is not as strong of a brand as it used to be anymore. You know, we like when they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco launched the new streaming music service, they didn’t call it new iTunes music. They called it Apple music.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Just call it
⏹️ ▶️ John iTunes music 2013 or whatever year was. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John the next year it would just be called new iTunes music.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, it could be part of some part of, you know, like a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big grand like iTunes deprecation plan where everything branded as iTunes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is being replaced by separate things. And that would be cool. But I don’t think this is evidence
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that. It might be, you know, I think we will be able to look back at this in retrospect if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that comes to pass and say, oh, that was the beginning of it. But yeah, right now, I don’t think we can really say
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything except that we’ve been hearing rumblings for a while, Apple is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco working on some kind of updates to their podcasting division,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whatever. Some of those are going to be enhancements for publishers, most of which have been totally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unspecified so far. But we know that they’re working on something for podcasts. So this is just one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco step of that, in all likelihood. Just the very first step of, now it’s Apple Podcasts to go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco along with Apple Music. I don’t think this really means anything yet.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I think this is kind of actually like a lagging, and that’s the wrong phrase, not a lagging indicator,
⏹️ ▶️ John but like that this change in branding from iTunes podcast to Apple podcast
⏹️ ▶️ John is actually something that’s overdue. Like it is catching up to the reality, and the reality
⏹️ ▶️ John is that on all these podcast sites, whether you see the subscribe and overcast
⏹️ ▶️ John and subscribe and iTunes, like that’s the other little badge button you would hit like that the iTunes brand
⏹️ ▶️ John being associated with podcast is past the point of being mostly
⏹️ ▶️ John nonsensical because iTunes like we just know it because historically speaking
⏹️ ▶️ John the iTunes podcast director was important for podcasting and it’s also very important popular authoritative
⏹️ ▶️ John index of podcasts these days and it happened to be a person an application that we know as iTunes
⏹️ ▶️ John but that no longer has any relevance if it ever did to podcasts it it barely
⏹️ ▶️ John has any relevance to music anymore, which is why Apple Music is called Apple Music, right? That the iTunes brand
⏹️ ▶️ John in all its forms, both in association with music and an application, or association with podcasts or
⏹️ ▶️ John any other things that it has done, doesn’t make sense in the current
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple ecosystem. And so to continue to have branding and promotional materials
⏹️ ▶️ John and website buttons and marketing communications and everything
⏹️ ▶️ John thing with the iTunes name in it is, you know, is not a good idea
⏹️ ▶️ John and they should have stopped doing it a long time ago. And so now I think their branding is catching up with that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think their product should also eventually catch up with it as well. Like that has, it has a lot on the,
⏹️ ▶️ John on the phone. There’s still icons on the phone that say iTunes, but the fact that they broke out the TV app and that
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV is called, you know, Apple TV instead of ITV and that they have podcasts broken
⏹️ ▶️ John out and you know, like I’m going to say that the rats are fleeing the sinking ship of iTunes,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they’ve been leaving for a long, long, long time. And eventually all that will be left is
⏹️ ▶️ John this weird bloated Mac application. Like it might even leave iOS home
⏹️ ▶️ John screens and then the only thing left will be the Mac application and that probably has the least resources to ever refactor
⏹️ ▶️ John it. But I’m all for them both rebranding and restructuring this.
⏹️ ▶️ John But even if they don’t do that, even if it’s just a simple rebranding exercise, good. Because it’s time to rebrand
⏹️ ▶️ John these things to divorce them from iTunes. It’s a name that doesn’t have it. The only connotations
⏹️ ▶️ John the name has for anybody who remembers it are like dated connotations like, Oh yeah, I remember buying my first things
⏹️ ▶️ John on iTunes. Anyway, now I subscribe to Spotify. And when I see iTunes podcasts, like
⏹️ ▶️ John podcasts, kind of like that old thing I used to do with music doesn’t make any sense. So iTunes has served
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple well. But you know, once Apple itself
⏹️ ▶️ John has switched its preeminent music service away from the iTunes brand, that’s the day the iTunes brand died
⏹️ ▶️ John and all we’re doing now is just, you know, letting the rest of the product catch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up with it. I mean, I would say it was even earlier than that. I would say like, you know, like it did make sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say for a podcast, subscribe in iTunes in the early days of podcasting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco before there was all this mobile listening when you were mostly listening by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally subscribing in the iTunes app on a Mac or Windows and syncing them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to your iPod to listen to. So that made sense then. That was so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was. That was a bad time. I mean it was great for the time, you know, in the sense like DOS was great
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for its time. Anyway, so…
⏹️ ▶️ John know if it was great for the time. I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey think of a single time… Oh, here we go.
⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s the thing. Syncing songs to my iPod back in the days, like oh you’ve got your iPod
⏹️ ▶️ John with a monochrome LCD screen and a click wheel or you know a mechanical spinning wheel, wheel like first
⏹️ ▶️ John gen iPod, putting songs on that by connecting it with a firewire cable to your Mac and iTunes
⏹️ ▶️ John would see it and syncing things to it. I mean, it’s clunky, but that was like that was the tech. The problem with podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ John is there are they are a regularly published thing like they’re a feed.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not like you put your songs on your iPod, you put your podcast on your iPod and you have them. There’s never any putting your
⏹️ ▶️ John podcast on your iPod. There’s always more podcasts like every day of the week if you’re subscribed to a lot of them. Whereas
⏹️ ▶️ John new songs aren’t weren’t arriving in your iTunes collection every day of the week unless you spend a lot of your time buying music.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it was so painful to know to have to constantly have this mental
⏹️ ▶️ John keep keeping your head the state of whatever is on your your pod, you know your iPod. Oh, when’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the last time I synced? It is the new episode of show x on there? Do I have to sync again? Did I
⏹️ ▶️ John remember to sync before I left the house. It was a terrible fit, so I never remember
⏹️ ▶️ John liking it. Whereas I remember definitely liking syncing music onto it, maybe because my music collection, again,
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t change that frequently, but I never liked it with podcasts. And all I can remember is all the times that I
⏹️ ▶️ John was disappointed that I didn’t have the most recent episode of the show I wanted to listen to on my iPod at the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were like you were like about to run at the door. You’re like you’re about to be late for
⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t spend a 20 minute iTunes sync.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like I mentioned how many people in the world were collectively five minutes late to work during that time because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they were waiting for their iPod to finish syncing the new podcast episodes. And you couldn’t tell
⏹️ ▶️ John it just put that one episode on it. It’d be like, nope, got it. Got to do syncing. It’s going to be a while. Step five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Anyway, so back it did make sense to say subscribe in iTunes for a podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back then. But because I, you know, as you said, like because the podcast, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iTunes brand was never really used on iOS. Like, there is the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iTunes app, but that’s basically like the video and movie store, right? Or like, it’s like how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can buy music, videos, and movies on the phone. You know, that’s the only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco place that the iTunes name was ever used on iOS. So, to say subscribe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on iTunes for a podcast now makes very little sense, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what does that mean to anybody using a phone? Like, almost all podcast listening is happening on mobile these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco days. Mobile has destroyed desktop and other listening. Almost everything happens
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on mobile. So if you tell somebody with a podcast, or if you tell a podcast listener to subscribe on iTunes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a very good chance they don’t know what you’re talking about. So I think this makes a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense just as a thing that they probably should do for podcasts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And again, I wouldn’t read anything more into it than that because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there might be something more to it, but there’s also very good reasons for them to have done it on their own.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Peter Beardsley wrote in probably 18 years ago, and he said, a few years
⏹️ ▶️ Casey back when the Wii U sales were slumping, we were all doubting the future of Nintendo. John said something along
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the lines of, quote, as long as there’s still a viable market for dedicated game consoles,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nintendo can survive. These days they seem to be doing more than just surviving. Breath of the Wild, oh, this must not have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey been that long ago then. of the Wild is a fantastic game that turned me back into a believer. Taking into account Super
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mario Run, the Switch, and Breath of the Wild, what grade would John assign the company? Is he bullish
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about Nintendo’s future? That means you’re happy about it, right? I always get bearish and bullish backwards.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, how does he feel about their upcoming paid online service, which I didn’t even know about?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, as the email finishes, the people want to know, and now I am one of the people. So John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey how do you feel about Nintendo?
⏹️ ▶️ John I had to give them a grade, I would still give them like a B- or so. And here’s why. First of
⏹️ ▶️ John all, the Switch is still, I mean it’s doing well by all accounts, but it’s still
⏹️ ▶️ John too early to call because they’re still in the afterglow of their launch,
⏹️ ▶️ John which launched with one of the best games that Nintendo has ever made. Everyone loves Breath of the Wild, universally
⏹️ ▶️ John good reviews, I love it, it’s great. But
⏹️ ▶️ John does it have legs? How’s it gonna? What’s the switch gonna be selling like three or four years from now? Is it gonna have the longevity
⏹️ ▶️ John that you would expect of a console in the past let alone the longevity of today’s consoles? Which seemed to have second lives
⏹️ ▶️ John when you get like the ps4 pro and Scorpio and all that stuff Where it’s technically the same
⏹️ ▶️ John console, but it’s a bumped up version like it’s extending the life like give these consoles
⏹️ ▶️ John More time whereas the Wii U did not have a long life. It was not very successful The thing about the switch and breath
⏹️ ▶️ John of the wild that Makes me downgrade their grade
⏹️ ▶️ John perhaps by a lot in terms of you know making dedicated game consoles
⏹️ ▶️ John is Breath of the Wild was the game that was originally announced for the Wii U and it was developed
⏹️ ▶️ John with Wii U specific features so like there would be stuff on the gamepad and also stuff on the TV screen
⏹️ ▶️ John and motion control for the aiming and also stuff like that and Because
⏹️ ▶️ John of the short life of the Wii U and because of the rapid rapid necessary
⏹️ ▶️ John development of its replacement the switch Nintendo had to change things
⏹️ ▶️ John around and take out the Wii U they didn’t have to do this but this is what they did take out
⏹️ ▶️ John the Wii U specific features for the Wii U version because they don’t want the Wii U version to seem like it’s the better version
⏹️ ▶️ John they want you know you want the switch version to be the better version and the switch doesn’t have a separate gamepad and
⏹️ ▶️ John TV although if they had designed it differently could have because you’ve got all the hardware But it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s got if you put it in his little cradle you can see on a TV And if you hold it on your hand,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s where it is. You don’t have a two-screen experience with switch for this game and
⏹️ ▶️ John so Breath of the Wild as Fantastic as it is could have been a ps4
⏹️ ▶️ John game and the exact same game It would have better graphics
⏹️ ▶️ John a better frame rate It could have been a ps4 game and that has not been true for the most
⏹️ ▶️ John part of of Nintendo’s breakout hits in the modern era.
⏹️ ▶️ John The Nintendo 64 and Mario 64 and the analog stick, like
⏹️ ▶️ John that is all of a piece. You cannot put out Mario 64 on the SNES
⏹️ ▶️ John or Sega Genesis or anything like that because the whole game is designed around
⏹️ ▶️ John not just 3D hardware, but also the controllers and other, like the hardware and the software went together to
⏹️ ▶️ John provide the innovative experience. Wii is an obvious, much more modern example. The Wii
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t exist without the hardware. It’s hardware and software together. The GameCube, I would say, is Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ John most technologically successful traditional console in that it was just plain a good, competitive, powerful
⏹️ ▶️ John console with a good controller at a good price, well designed for profitability.
⏹️ ▶️ John Just, you know, straight down the middle, like basically what Microsoft has always done with its consoles, right in recent years starting
⏹️ ▶️ John with the Wii though Nintendo has been making less powerful consoles and trying to concentrate
⏹️ ▶️ John and innovate in other areas and the Switch is certainly innovative with its portable and non-portable you know
⏹️ ▶️ John uh that advancement but that advancement does not dictate
⏹️ ▶️ John so far for the most part a particular gameplay experience especially since you I don’t even know if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John allowed to do this but especially since the games that have been been released so far don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John say you can only play this in portable mode because it requires a touchscreen they’re also playable on
⏹️ ▶️ John the television which means you can’t make a game that requires a touchscreen that is also able to be played on the TV
⏹️ ▶️ John and then it’s no longer a switch is just a portable game right maybe that Nintendo will allow people to do that
⏹️ ▶️ John eventually but as far as I’m aware for now they’re not allowing people to do that all wishes say
⏹️ ▶️ John that I I haven’t seen any synergy between software and the hardware, which
⏹️ ▶️ John means Nintendo’s the advantage I was talking about Nintendo like as long as they
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s a market for a dedicated game consoles content Nintendo can be successful and survive Because then
⏹️ ▶️ John they can do that thing that Nintendo has always done which is make an amazing product that requires a synergy of hardware and software
⏹️ ▶️ John Somewhat like Apple has you know been had a reputation for doing over the many years But
⏹️ ▶️ John Breath of the Wild could have been a PS4 game and probably would have been better on PS4 and I would have been happier if
⏹️ ▶️ John Breath of the Wild ran on hardware that was more powerful. Now, that’s just me. Some people may want
⏹️ ▶️ John a really good portable system, in which case they don’t want Breath of the Wild on PS4, they want it on Switch because they love playing
⏹️ ▶️ John it in a portable thing on the go and, you know, upstairs in the bed or whatever. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John that makes it a successful handheld, but again, doesn’t say anything specific about other than
⏹️ ▶️ John like you know why couldn’t have been a uh god i’m sorry sony i can’t remember the name of your stupid most
⏹️ ▶️ John recent uh handheld that is not successful chat room what the hell is the vita sorry the
⏹️ ▶️ John nsx no no the vita play playstation vita and didn’t have what
⏹️ ▶️ John was the one after the vita god i can’t even keep track this lag is killing me i think the vita is most recent anyway
⏹️ ▶️ John uh people who love the handheld they’re you know there have been handhelds before now i understand the switch thing being
⏹️ ▶️ John able to take off the little controls and use it separately so there there is some innovation there, but it doesn’t have the same synergy with
⏹️ ▶️ John the games as other stuff has had. It doesn’t mean it’s not going to, it’s just very early days. New games
⏹️ ▶️ John are going to come out all the time, we’ll see how they go. The
⏹️ ▶️ John Switch is successful, people like it, the software is good, it can still be a successful product, but
⏹️ ▶️ John my personal grade for it is that they are not competitive with the two other big consoles.
⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo was always an also-ran because they make less powerful hardware, and within the realm of less powerful hardware
⏹️ ▶️ John their track record of being able to make innovations that have profound effects on gameplay
⏹️ ▶️ John and vice versa has been hit or miss over the years and the switch is kind of like a base
⏹️ ▶️ John hit in that people like it and it does what it’s supposed to do well but
⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like it is just a way for you to play the same old console games that you could always play portably
⏹️ ▶️ John and on a TV which is an innovation because that’s what people like about it like I don’t have to choose between some cut down portable
⏹️ ▶️ John game versus a full-fledged TV But that innovation is succeeds by being somewhere in the middle
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not as good on the TV as the dedicated TV consoles But it’s better portably than some of the weaker powered
⏹️ ▶️ John portable consoles also still made my Nintendo like the 3ds So it you know, it may be
⏹️ ▶️ John the right product at the right time and certainly I think we can all say that It has a brighter future as far as
⏹️ ▶️ John anyone can tell them that we you did and the Wii was arguably much more Arguably much more innovative it just you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John the the game sort of never materialized But I think this launch and the fact they had to make the switch and the fact that
⏹️ ▶️ John they had to cut out the features from the Wii U version so it didn’t appear to be the better version of the game than the switch version
⏹️ ▶️ John are all kind of disappointing markers of this difficult period in Nintendo’s
⏹️ ▶️ John history But I’m glad they’re I’m glad they’re recovering after the Wii U and I’m glad the switch does appear
⏹️ ▶️ John to be more successful I wish them all the success in the world. I just wish they would
⏹️ ▶️ John The product that I want them to make is not the switch But if the switch if the switch is what they have to make for me
⏹️ ▶️ John to get breath of the wild To make them successful again, you know, I can live with it, but that’s why I’m giving them like a BB minus
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, it’s funny you say that because when the switch first came out Well when when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we talked about the Sun but when the promo video or teaser video whatever it was came out I was like, wow, that looks actually really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cool. And then when it first came out I thought you know That still looks really cool and then I’ve played with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey With my sister-in-law’s and with some friends of ours a couple of times very briefly Wow, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty cool. And for the last month or however long it’s been out, I’ve been trying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to convince myself that I don’t play games anymore, which is accurate, that the last time I bought a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey console, I played it for a couple of months and then never touched it again, which is accurate. And thus, there is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no reason to spend a whole bunch of money on a Switch, which I will probably
⏹️ ▶️ Casey use for a month and then never use again, which I presume to be accurate. That being said,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just earlier tonight I realized the super useful website iStocknow, which I knew was tracking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple inventory for things like AirPods and whatnot, they actually track inventory
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the Switch. And I am strongly considering making a trip to a neighboring town to pick up
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Switch for myself tomorrow in no small part because I know I’m going to have a couple of long plane rides in my future,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that seems like it’d be a really great way to spend some time on the plane. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so here it is, I am the antithesis of a typical console
⏹️ ▶️ Casey buyer is which is to say I don’t buy consoles. I don’t tend to play video games. And I feel like this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey console was made for me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, maybe like it’s a successful Vita. Oh, it’s a lot of people. That’s how they’re viewing it. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it is the best portable system I’ve ever had, because the games on it are so amazing compared to I mean, get granted, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John being pulled up the average by having Breath of the Wild on it. But you know, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, imagine if there was a portable system that got the best first party titles from one of the best first party
⏹️ ▶️ John developers in the world. That’s the Switch, but I’m not interested in a portable, so that doesn’t really
⏹️ ▶️ John help me much. But it does mean that the product is potentially more appealing than the Wii U, which had to sit in this weird
⏹️ ▶️ John metal ground. But yeah, I’m surprised that you are into playing in a portable
⏹️ ▶️ John because you have pretty big hands as well and I find the size of it is not not conducive
⏹️ ▶️ John to my hands obviously I have RSI issues on top of everything else but it just feels a
⏹️ ▶️ John little bit awkward and I’ve been playing with the the Nintendo Pro controller and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John no GameCube controller but it’s okay for a controller that doesn’t have an octagonal surround
⏹️ ▶️ John around the analog sticks and thinks all the buttons are equally important it’s okay like it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not great but I like it I like it better than the Wii U pro controller which maybe isn’t saying much
⏹️ ▶️ Casey great episode of hypercritical or greatest episode of hypercritical
⏹️ ▶️ John it was an episode that exists
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh wow worst you are the worst which episode was that do you know offhand
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah I know I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey pinching the
⏹️ ▶️ John harmonica it’s classic
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey but you don’t know an
⏹️ ▶️ John episode number in the 50s in the 50s I’m gonna guess
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all right I’ll look it up
⏹️ ▶️ John you google for Syracuse of pinching the harmonica it’s gonna be the number one hit I guarantee you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this sounds like a dangerous query I don’t know if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I yeah don’t do an image
⏹️ ▶️ John search just regular text search and you’ll find
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it 49 you were very close and we caught you saying your own name twice in the last week
⏹️ ▶️ John caught me is this a secret thing yes I’ll say it I’ll say it all day say all night all day
⏹️ ▶️ Marco except that whenever when you were having like a whole episode of rectifs but how no one prances your name right you never said
⏹️ ▶️ John i just don’t want to encourage him
⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t give him what he wants you know he’s incorrigible
⏹️ ▶️ John poor merlin don’t don’t you give him your pity he does not deserve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it well you’re bad cop today aren’t you that’s how this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John playing isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it oh goodness all right so marco what do you think about the switch i mean i know that tiff has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has gotten herself one or well maybe it was for you, but it’s effectively hers.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I don’t remember
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what the backstory was, but like, have you played it at all? Remind me what your scenario is with that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I played the Wipeout clone for a few minutes and that was fun.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right. Yeah, but that’s it so far. I expect to play Mario Kart probably quite a bit. Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amen, brother. But that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey is now until
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the end of this month, I think. And also the Puyo Puyo Tetris,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I know from my Sega days as Dr. Robotnik’s Mean Bean Machine Tetris. I will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably be enjoying that as well when that comes out, which I believe is also around Mario Kart time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then whenever there’s ever a Mario game for it, I will like that. If there’s ever a virtual console
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that allows me to catch up a little bit on previous Mario games as we previously discussed, I would like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But otherwise, you know, yeah, I’m not that into it because I’m not that into games.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m like you, but I’ve already bought it and I’ve realized that. So.
⏹️ ▶️ John There is a Mario game coming, by the way, in case you’re wondering. There totally is one.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, but it’s a 3D one. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John Those are the real ones now.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No, they’re not. Yeah, but it’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John 3D. Everyone else is saying, finally, a real Mario game instead of one of these nostalgic throwback 2.5D things.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, no, that’s what I want. I want more 2.5D. To me, that’s what Mario games
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are. Like, the 3D ones always felt like they were good games, but they didn’t feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mario games to me. They felt like a different thing. You’re so stuck in the past. No, it’s just,
⏹️ ▶️ John I know you like your 2D games, you’re playing through Sonic for crying out loud. I know you like 2D, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I love the 3D ones better and I think they’re just.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a different kind of game.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I suppose. I mean, I was surprised by how, I mean I talked about this on, I think it was on
⏹️ ▶️ John Rectifs, about how games that I loved in the 2D era made the transition
⏹️ ▶️ John to 3D and I still love them even though like you said it is totally different like Zelda in 2D versus Zelda
⏹️ ▶️ John in 3D. Very different mechanically, visually, like so many things about it are different and Mario
⏹️ ▶️ John same thing and yet I still feel like this is a through line. I still feel like it’s the same game, the same kind of feeling.
⏹️ ▶️ John The difference is that once they went 3D I couldn’t go back to the 2D ones anymore. It’s like well why would I want to just jump
⏹️ ▶️ John up and down 2D? I want to jump up and down in a 3D world.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s just like it’s such different mechanics Like, you know, certain games, like back
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the like 8 and 16-bit era, racing games, like Mario Kart for Super Nintendo,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco played that game for so long, it was such a great game, but fundamentally you were really navigating a 3D world,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just happened to be rendered in crude 2D that was trying to approximate
⏹️ ▶️ John but… And there was a lot of tapping, because you didn’t have analog sticks, so tapping was all about tapping the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, but the point is, like, you know, translating Mario Kart from 2D to 3D
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just made it better. It didn’t fundamentally produce a different kind of game.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You were already conceptually moving in 3D and it just made it better. But a platform
⏹️ ▶️ Marco game is an incredibly different playing game between 2D and 3D. Everything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can do is totally different. A lot of 2D stuff does not work in 3D and vice versa.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it is a totally different kind of game. And what made me so sad during the 32
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and 64-bit console era console era was that all of my favorite 2D franchises
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were basically killed off for like 10 years while they made 3D versions. And that was fine,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that wasn’t, it wasn’t the same thing. I know I’ve had this rant before recently, so I’ll stop it here, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 2D Mario and 3D Mario are different games, and for a while they didn’t continue both,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I’m glad they in recent years have continued both, and I would love to play some of those new 2-slash-2.5D
⏹️ ▶️ Marco games. And by new, I just mean made after the 90s. So I know they’re not new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anymore for gamers, but for me, they would be new. And I would love to play them, but I wouldn’t love to play them enough
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go like buy a Wii U or something. So I’m hoping they come to virtual console and the switch in
⏹️ ▶️ John So you said that they’re totally different games. And I understand what you’re saying in terms of like mechanically speaking, but the reason I feel like there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a through line is not so much like how do you control it? And what
⏹️ ▶️ John is the you know, what is on the screen? like you know how does the game work but sort of the
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know this I don’t say the spirit of the game but like Mario is about running
⏹️ ▶️ John and jumping that that you are exercising
⏹️ ▶️ John your athletic ability this little character it’s gonna navigate the world that’s full of hazard so things that
⏹️ ▶️ John you touch to kill you pits that you fall into enemies that hurt you when they touch you and you are are
⏹️ ▶️ John running and jumping and I feel like Mario 3D
⏹️ ▶️ John captured more than any game that had tried to do a similar thing before it, which is why it’s such an important
⏹️ ▶️ John game, captured the fun of running and jumping. What is fun about running around and jumping?
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s, and yes, it’s totally different. You’re in 3D space, the whole rules of the world are different, like it’s not like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you live if you’re traveling downward on the enemy, But if you’re traveling upward, you die like all this,
⏹️ ▶️ John all the all the mechanics of the old game, every rule system, every sort of how it controls in the
⏹️ ▶️ John air, how run works, you know, holding down B to run like all that stuff went away and was replaced with something entirely different. And yet
⏹️ ▶️ John I still feel like this is a game about the joy of running and jumping. Same thing with Zelda, which was about
⏹️ ▶️ John exploring a world, big, scary, dangerous world that you don’t understand that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that goes on for a long distance that you have to slowly discover the mysteries of and collect
⏹️ ▶️ John items and become more powerful and eventually solve
⏹️ ▶️ John a mystery and defeat an enemy and complete a story. And the change to 3D was like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you thought exploring was fun in 2D? It’s even more fun when it’s 3D with better graphics.
⏹️ ▶️ John And Breath of the Wild says you thought it was fun exploring, like the idea of exploring, well this
⏹️ ▶️ John world is humongous and your exploring is no longer constrained in the ways it used to be.
⏹️ ▶️ John those games feel like, yes, Zelda is about exploration and conquest
⏹️ ▶️ John and mystery and, you know, defeating an enemy
⏹️ ▶️ John and story. And that’s the through line I see, even though mechanically speaking the game is varied a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I think it really depends on what you were, what part of the game
⏹️ ▶️ John you were there for. If you were there for the mechanics and the mechanics change when it’s like, well, this is a different game. But if you were there for
⏹️ ▶️ John the joy of running and jumping and this and this new game in 3D even more thoroughly embodies
⏹️ ▶️ John the joy of running and jumping that you will like the 3D games. So obviously, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John which side of that I’m on, in that I think I’m at the point where I can say I didn’t even like the mechanics of the
⏹️ ▶️ John 2D ones. It’s just, that was the best incarnation of a game that made it, you know, that
⏹️ ▶️ John you got to experience the fun of running around and jumping. And then when I went to 3D, I just discarded the 2D. I’m like, well, I
⏹️ ▶️ John get more of that here. But if you like the 2D mechanics, the 3D one has nothing for you, You’re just waiting for the 2.5d games
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did you guys play f-zero on the Super Nintendo? Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly looking at Marco
⏹️ ▶️ John the n64 frame locked at 60 frames per second
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it looked awesome. It’s like you’re like there there were basically no polygons,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it looked awesome Mm-hmm.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the right trade-off for that game
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I would say I just I love that game so darn much my goodness. Did I love that game?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will say though like I one of the reasons why I’ve always liked wipeout and Mario Kart is that racing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco games are fun, but racing games with weapons are a lot more fun. And that was one thing I always missed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with F-Zero. I enjoyed going really fast and stuff, but I wanted to occasionally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be able to fire a missile at Casey, and I couldn’t do that.
⏹️ ▶️ John and speaking of games, like we were playing, I’m still playing Breath of the Wild, obviously, and I got the chance
⏹️ ▶️ John to try out the thing that I was suggesting Marco try out, but that he said he tried and didn’t like, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John Breath of the Wild as essentially a party game. We had some company over and we had like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John a couple of adults and their kids, and all of us just sitting in the same room, playing
⏹️ ▶️ John Breath of the Wild, which is a single player game together as a party game.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because especially if you have someone who’s, you have the person who’s ostensibly controlling the game,
⏹️ ▶️ John but then you have an entire room full of people who have opinions about what should be done next, what you should try
⏹️ ▶️ John or just you know laughing at the results of the most recent experiment because even just playing Breath of the Wild single player
⏹️ ▶️ John is a constant series of distractions just try progressing the story quest you can’t do it because it’s like oh what’s
⏹️ ▶️ John that over there oh what’s this oh I want to do this and you’ll find yourself 20 degrees removed from what you thought you were doing and
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re having fun the whole time and if you have a room full of people who are also engaged with that even though none of them are actually
⏹️ ▶️ John playing telling you spotting something out of the corner of their eye you didn’t see or getting excited about
⏹️ ▶️ John something that happened or giving you a suggestion about something could try. It worked very well. Maybe it wouldn’t work well
⏹️ ▶️ John as you get deep into the game, people start to suss out what the mechanics are. But for a room full of people,
⏹️ ▶️ John half of which had never even seen Breath of the Wild, it was hilarious and fun. And the most fun I’ve had quote
⏹️ ▶️ John unquote, playing a video game in a large group, even though he had one person had the controller and it was not me
⏹️ ▶️ John in a long time. And that’s what I was suggesting Marco do with when tip is playing, but apparently
⏹️ ▶️ John he’s still just bored and falls asleep. And Adam is her copilot.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, to be honest, Marco’s about to fall asleep anyway. That’s true. For different
⏹️ ▶️ John reasons. This is before he went to Ireland. He was still falling asleep on the couch. He’s an old man. He’s got a beard
⏹️ ▶️ John now. He just like put him on the couch and three seconds later his eyes are closed and he’s snoring. And then you wake up he says
⏹️ ▶️ John I was just resting my eyes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our three sponsors this week. Betterment, Jamf and MailRoute and we will see you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes at
⏹️ ▶️ John atp.fm And if you’re into Twitter,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and T. Marco Armin,
⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental, they didn’t mean to
⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, accidental, tech
Post-show: WWDC lunches
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s talk about something really important. Let’s talk about WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lunches in indescribable detail. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this came up a couple of shows ago. I forget exactly how but I guess it was when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we were talking about the change from Moscone to wherever we are in San
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Jose and one of us might have been me brought up the WWDC lunches and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think the two of you kind of immediately pooh-poohed them, and I said, oh really, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not that bad. And I think John made a joke about, oh, we should talk about that in great detail another time, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it turns out John wasn’t entirely joking. And a better
⏹️ ▶️ Casey man would not bring this up and say it’s a stupid idea, but I am not that man,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I am anxious to talk about WWDC launches in great
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco So I have scoured
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So just to be clear, we are talking about the Conference Center box lunches
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for an event that is no longer happening in that Conference Center and will no longer have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this particular box lunch series. And also, the event itself is not happening
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for another almost two months from now. And this is what we’re talking about right now. Oh, I love you guys
⏹️ ▶️ John Two shows worth of Mac Pro stuff made Casey willing to talk about literally anything else.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything. Or since I’ve just finished Parks and Rec, I will talk about literally anything right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John other than the Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, so John, why don’t you tell us about WWDC box launches?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so I, we were just came up in the talking about the conference and the things that are good and bad
⏹️ ▶️ John about it. Maybe we’re talking about Ottawa and stuff like that. And here’s the thing about WWDC,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an expensive conference, it’s expensive to put on, I’m sure it’s in an expensive city, things in conference
⏹️ ▶️ John centers, if you’ve never put on a conference yourself or talk to anybody who has are absurdly expensive,
⏹️ ▶️ John much more expensive than you think they are because there’s a lot of other costs built into them. Apple usually has,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think, in general, pretty good food and drink
⏹️ ▶️ John options, especially considering the scale. I mean, granted, it’s not like 50,000 people, like a
⏹️ ▶️ John really giant convention, but 5,000 people, there’s nothing to sneeze at. If you’re trying to give snacks and drinks to 5,000 people,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s really easy to cheap out. And Apple, in general, tries to do better. They have like donuts and danishes, which are,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, reasonable quality donuts and danishes. Some of them I actually like, like Marco mentioned, is usually one that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John really good. I think a lot of them are actually really good. I have no idea how the coffee is, because I don’t drink it. The bagels
⏹️ ▶️ John are garbage. Well, you know, San Francisco, come on.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’ve obviously.
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay, bagels on the West Coast. For the drinks, when they had Odwalla, Odwalla is a
⏹️ ▶️ John fairly expensive, I think high quality beverage. It’s not like they’re putting out RC Cola for everybody, right? Apologies
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to the RC fans.
⏹️ ▶️ John So, I think as far as conference goes, like, they’re certainly not really
⏹️ ▶️ John the top of the heap. Maybe they’re not even above average for this for these things. I just listened, but they’re, they’re about average. I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John definitely been to conferences that have much better food, but also much, much worse. So I think I think they’re doing okay for all those
⏹️ ▶️ John things. By the way, all those things and also like fresh fruit and other stuff that you get out in the hallways. Pretty good.
⏹️ ▶️ John Also probably astronomically expensive. If you were to add up like, how much does this one muffin I picked up cost Apple,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, oh, great $27 for muffin yum yum yum doesn’t make it taste any better but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey just to get the scale of the cost here oh my god it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John much more expensive than you think but then we come to the lunches and the lunches are not at any different scale than
⏹️ ▶️ John anything else because when they put out like those snack foods and the things and like when you’re lining up to
⏹️ ▶️ John get into presidio for the keynote every every five one of those 5 000 people or however many people are
⏹️ ▶️ John there take something from there like the food goes it’s not as if it’s you know that the lunch
⏹️ ▶️ John is 10 times bigger than the snacks they put out enough snacks and enough drinks for all the people who are in the conference
⏹️ ▶️ John if they Wanted them all right and so lunch is the same deal a lot of people go out to lunch So it’s you know the same kind of ratio
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure what happens For the lunch food because it’s the same problem. How do you
⏹️ ▶️ John feed a reasonable quality product to a large group of people? right so you
⏹️ ▶️ John have all the same problems of scale and You know packaged food versus
⏹️ ▶️ John freshly made you know or? or all the same problems. Somehow,
⏹️ ▶️ John for lunch in particular, they blow it. They are well
⏹️ ▶️ John below average, even below Apple’s own average. For example, if you have ever been to an Apple tech
⏹️ ▶️ John talk, I think the food at the tech talks is better than this lunch food.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe because it’s not, I think even the lunches are. They give similar little box lunches. So anyway, this is what the lunch is
⏹️ ▶️ John like. You line up with everybody else and you go across a big series of tables. do a good job with
⏹️ ▶️ John traffic flow. Like, you know, the lines move, it’s massively distributed, it’s a parallel architecture, kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of like Altevec for the old folks. You know, single instruction, multiple developer,
⏹️ ▶️ John huh? All right. And lots of tables with maybe three choices, you
⏹️ ▶️ John got the chicken, the beef and the vegetarian option. And there’s a bunch of plastic clear
⏹️ ▶️ John plastic boxes that have three areas in them. There’s the main area where they’re going to put the
⏹️ ▶️ John main part of your lunch there’s one little corner of the thing that is kind of like a dessert-y thing and then there’s like a side dish
⏹️ ▶️ John thing and somehow they managed to find the most
⏹️ ▶️ John inappropriate things to put inside this vessel their most
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey common failure mode most common failure mode is to
⏹️ ▶️ John pick something that needs to be crispy or
⏹️ ▶️ John dry in some way and to put it inside this container that traps moisture so that whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John your sandwich or piece piece of bread or whatever thing is sitting in is next to some wet side dish or something that seeps into the bread
⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s nothing worse than picking up a sandwich that has been sitting there in liquid for a long period of time before you got to it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Same thing with any any kind of bread that requires freshness or staleness or whatever to
⏹️ ▶️ John you know not not being stale to be good that that is the crux of making this dish good and you get it with some kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John styrofoam like bread substance on it or putting spreads
⏹️ ▶️ John on like putting like mustard or mayonnaise or other kind of wet spreads on the bread, but putting them directly
⏹️ ▶️ John against the bread instead of in between the layers so they soak into the bread. And for the side
⏹️ ▶️ John dishes, there’s not much you can do with side dishes because it’s got to be it’s room temperature. It’s not hot. But they will very
⏹️ ▶️ John often put side dishes that should be hot in a room temperature container, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John the wrong thing to be putting there and the desserts like that’s such an easy win. Just give us a damn chocolate chip cookie. Put
⏹️ ▶️ John a piece of chocolate cake in there. It’s not hard like these things keep you know you can buy pre-packaged ones.
⏹️ ▶️ John Put two chips ahoy in. At a certain point you would kill for chips ahoy. Instead these are like handmade,
⏹️ ▶️ John supposed to be sugary sweet confections that taste
⏹️ ▶️ John like ashes in your mouth. They’re just terrible little squares of
⏹️ ▶️ John potentially sweet thing. Again, also alternately stale and soggy. And there’s no
⏹️ ▶️ John reason to try to make an artisanal, beautiful complicated sophisticated thing you gotta
⏹️ ▶️ John put in foods that taste good and will keep and that’s what they do on the outside like donuts keep danish’s keep right
⏹️ ▶️ John a banana keeps oddball in the container keeps but when it comes to lunch they i feel like they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John trying to make like these beautifully prepared chef dishes and then shoveling them into plastic and let them just stew
⏹️ ▶️ John there and it is a terrible terrible experience and i say this as someone who has had had
⏹️ ▶️ John probably more box lunches on average than most attendees who WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ John because I get the box lunch pretty much every day because I don’t want to go out and have to come back. I just want to run down there
⏹️ ▶️ John quickly get my lunch eat it and then go get in line for the next thing. So I eat all these things but
⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes even I with you know in a hurry to be utilitarian just can’t make it
⏹️ ▶️ John just can’t make it through the food and you just sometimes you just take one forkful that side dish you’re like all right that’s no
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s it I’m done and you half of the soggy sandwich or you just leave the bottom half of the sandwich down there
⏹️ ▶️ John and you just eat the top half or and I wish I could remember I should have recorded these in film sometimes they don’t do sandwiches sometimes there’s other kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of lunch things and sometimes it’s just literally inedible it’s like there’s there’s no food to be had here
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I don’t know what this is
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to be here the dragons
⏹️ ▶️ John taste terrible it looks terrible uh it has to be eaten with a fork out of this little container and I feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like I’m on like a spaceship eating one of those you know space food that comes out of a tube or something. So, oh my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey topic was so worth it. I actually don’t think they’re that bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like nothing you said is wrong. I’m not disagreeing with anything you said. I just think I’m less bothered by it. Generally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking, I find the sandwiches to be perfectly acceptable. They are not great. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even hard pressed to say they’re good. They’re just fine. I don’t typically
⏹️ ▶️ Casey run into the bread sogginess problem. But again, I I agree with what you said that they definitely pair
⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that that will create a bread sogginess vortex.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you are not wrong.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also like the quality of the ingredients between the bread, like whatever they put there, whether it’s a cold cut or a
⏹️ ▶️ John piece of chicken or some arugula or lettuce, it’s always like the most the worst
⏹️ ▶️ John form of that. So if it’s chicken, the chicken is just dry as chalk. If it is lettuce, lettuce is completely wilted.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, if it’s ham, the ham tastes like it’s entirely made of filler and like a pig walk by it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey continue. I’m dead. I mean, I like so I’m with you, Casey.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t actually like, you know, I’ve also eaten a lot of these, not as many as John has, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will usually try to escape the comfort center for lunch at least a couple of the days.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I’ve eaten a good number of them. And to me, they’re always
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not great, but they’re always better than I expect them to be. Because I look at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them and I have very low expectations, because they are these mass-produced, clearly well
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ahead of time. Usually, they’re not room temperature, usually they’re cold. The whole box is cold. So they were usually,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I assume they’re stood in a fridge for a few hours between preparation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Or a couple weeks, you know, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or manufacturing, I guess. But anyway, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco always to me about the quality of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco modern day airplane food on a decent airline. So it’s not as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad as you expect and actually not that bad. And it mostly tastes like nothing, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t really care. It tastes… if it has any flavor at all, the flavor is from the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco salad dressing that they use to moisten the sandwich and provide some flavor. That’s really where all the flavor comes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from. So it just tastes like some cold lettuce and chicken with a little bit of salad dressing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it. And that’s fine. And
⏹️ ▶️ John I think the comparison to airplane food is good because I get that same sense from airplane food in that it tastes like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John dead. It tastes like it’s from… I was going to reference the Stephen King story that
⏹️ ▶️ John neither of you have even heard of and no one who’s listening has read. But anyway, it tastes like all of the sort of life
⏹️ ▶️ John has been sucked out of it. And in an airplane, it’s a lot about like you being in a different cabin pressure and recycled
⏹️ ▶️ John air and in a small space and all the other things that make planes weird, right? But this is on the ground where
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like a sandwich But when you bite it all you can feel is the texture and there’s like literally no
⏹️ ▶️ John taste or if there is taste It’s a bad taste and that’s what you know And the dressing they put on to try to be fancy that has made
⏹️ ▶️ John the bread all soggy and gross and the bread already wasn’t very good like all you get is like the
⏹️ ▶️ John feeling of eating foam rubber and then a Momentary tang of the terrible mustard spread or vinegar thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that they put on it And it’s a lot like being on the airplane because you buy your $20 sandwich and
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like you realize the sandwich has become a homogenous solid, that it is no longer a bunch of
⏹️ ▶️ John individual ingredients. You bite into it and again, all you experience is the varying textures
⏹️ ▶️ John of the things, but nothing has any taste.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, but I’ve never had as negative a reaction as you have to these. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve always, you know, usually when I’m eating them, I’m paying attention to what I’m eating for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at most one bite, but I’m also usually thinking about what I just saw in sessions, or I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco talking to you guys or other people who are around or whatever else, and so I’m not,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco before I know it, I have consumed the mass that’s in this plastic container and I have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not given a second thought to it. And I’m drinking some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of sugary, disgusting iced tea thing or something, and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John that terrible iced tea, what is it, the S-T? I know some people like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s Lipton canned iced tea, which is full of sugar.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why can’t they why can’t they serve us a proper like carbonated beverage? Why is that so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hard now? I shouldn’t be I shouldn’t be that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco grumpy. No, they have other carbonated beverages. I just don’t take them because I don’t like I
⏹️ ▶️ John Really bad lemonade is one of the choices.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, really
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey nice tea. Is there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s correct Oh, they don’t have like sodas in there not during lunch. That’s the thing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John They have them
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out at snack time, but they won’t do it at the con I sound like a four-year-old they’ll put it out at snack time.
⏹️ ▶️ John You put out the mats for the naps that’s when they bring it out.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, right. But, uh, but no, there’s no, um, there’s no soda during lunch, which drives me batty because you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly right. Like the real issue here is that it’s crappy, it’s crappy lemonade
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or well, I don’t drink iced tea, but my understanding is like you guys said, it’s crappy iced tea. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, to be fair, like I’m not even sure I would call that iced tea. Like there’s, it’s, it’s just a ton
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I’m not sure what the, what the tea flavor is in it. I mean, they’re just, it’s just like terribly sickly,
⏹️ ▶️ John sweet, sugary liquid.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. It tastes very little like actual iced tea. It tastes a lot more like, and I always grab it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinking like, I don’t want all the sugar of soda. Let me grab this iced tea. And of course it has just as much, if not more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sugar as most soda. And it’s every time just like, ugh, it’s so sweet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But no, I mean, I just don’t, I’ve never found them that offensive. And I wonder,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John, are you just making bad choices? So like normally, when you approach the rows
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of tables that have all these on them, usually given about three options and it’ll usually be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something along the lines of like chicken roast beef and vegetarian. Given that choice,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John, which do you pick? Because I’ll tell you what, I would never pick roast beef. I would usually in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that case pick the chicken option.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the only one I could say I pretty much never pick is vegetarian. I pick vegetarian maybe twice out of like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the 30 days I’ve been at WRC so far in my life. And it has been a terrible mistake
⏹️ ▶️ John every time because I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco have not liked them,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? So for the other choices, I feel like I’ve rotated pretty well because I’m desperately
⏹️ ▶️ John in search of something I can find edible. So it’s not like I’m saying if there’s chicken and beef, always pick beef.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like I’m about 50-50 on the choices and I’m not going with what I think I would like better
⏹️ ▶️ John if both were made well. I’m entirely going on like eyeballing them and saying, does that
⏹️ ▶️ John look like it’s going to be? like it’s gonna be like for example like I’ve learned it’s best for me to avoid wraps
⏹️ ▶️ John so if I have a choice between anything in a wrap and something not in a wrap it’s best to avoid wraps because the wraps
⏹️ ▶️ John really emphasize the homogenous solid thing like whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John the constituent ingredients were they wrap it all up put it together make it all soggy put it
⏹️ ▶️ John in a fridge and it just becomes this like giant hunk of cookie dough only it doesn’t taste like cookies
⏹️ ▶️ John and doesn’t matter what they put in it and so I and because they’ll be like vegetables in there, terrible meat
⏹️ ▶️ John will be mixed into the thing, some kind of liquid or mayo, and then the wrapping on the outside all soggy and
⏹️ ▶️ John cold and all completely tasteless. So in general I avoid wraps and
⏹️ ▶️ John I will prefer avoiding the wraps over the particular thing in them. I have
⏹️ ▶️ John learned that chicken is super dangerous if it’s thick because it always ends up being very very dry. But
⏹️ ▶️ John other than that I’m willing to give almost anything a try. I’m willing to believe that this one is gonna be the one that is
⏹️ ▶️ John not completely vile. And Most of the time I can get through it because again
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re sitting there talking to people or whatever But I do find myself briefly distracted while sitting there eating my thing to go.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, this is real. This is terrible I can’t even believe is then you just continue going right some of them times. I just can’t get through it
⏹️ ▶️ John Side dishes have the lowest percentage for me. It’s like I just just a write-off I don’t pick based on the side dishes. I assume all
⏹️ ▶️ John the side dishes will be terrible That
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is pretty accurate to be honest. That’s the thing is to me the sandwich to me is usually okay
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree that the meat is maybe ham adjacent rather than ham.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The bread may be a little wetter than you want, but it’s edible. It’s usually fine. And the dessert,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oftentimes I don’t care for the particular flavor of the dessert because, as an example, I don’t—and this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey may not even be accurate—but I don’t like cranberries. So maybe it’s like a cranberry-based dessert. And so that’s a Casey problem,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a dessert problem. But the side dish tends to be pretty esoteric in my personal opinion,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I agree with you probably four times out of five just gets written off.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The one thing with the side dish to me is that, so it is also, you know, the same general
⏹️ ▶️ Marco formula of like, we’ll take some bland ingredients and we will apply some kind of salad dressing to them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to generate flavor. The main problem I have with the side dishes, I almost always actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoy them, but they always taste completely unexpected from how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought they should
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey taste based on how they looked. Because like whatever pairings
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they make between like the salad dressing or whatever is given the flavor and the ingredients in them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it looks nothing like it tastes and again I usually end up in it’s usually good enough I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually like it but it I’m always shocked by what is in my mouth after after I’ve seen it
⏹️ ▶️ John I also have I think one of the things that makes me predisposed to not like most of these things is
⏹️ ▶️ John especially for things like side dishes like I said very often they will put things inside dishes that I expect
⏹️ ▶️ John to be served not not cold or not at room temperature so any rice based
⏹️ ▶️ John side dish I know plenty of you know people like rice at room temperature or there are rice dishes that are
⏹️ ▶️ John you know room temperature but when I see a rice based side dish I don’t expect it
⏹️ ▶️ John to be cold I don’t want to eat cold rice in a period no matter what is in it
⏹️ ▶️ John and the same thing for things like potato salad can be cold but just fine
⏹️ ▶️ John but depending on what if they make a side dish that looks like it’s like roast potatoes
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want room temperature roast potatoes. Who wants room temperature roast? But never mind that that the
⏹️ ▶️ John potatoes were probably not good the second they came out of the oven. But certainly after sitting in that little container stewing in a little steamy,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, Dagobah pit inside there, you just want those roast potatoes.
⏹️ ▶️ John And and Marco’s totally right about the they taste weirder than you think, because they’re not you can’t categorize
⏹️ ▶️ John them. That’s why very often the most most pertinent question at any WC lunch table is, what is the
⏹️ ▶️ John side Like you can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey categorize, you can’t say, it’s green beans, it’s potato salad,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s corn. It’s like, sometimes it’s a puzzle just to say, forget about giving a name to this thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Let’s just take for granted this has no name. Can you identify the constituent ingredients? What,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey thing, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a white thing, and there’s a yellow thing. Everyone, what do you think the yellow thing is? Is it squash? Is
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Is it onion? And you have
⏹️ ▶️ John to put it in your mouth, and you’re like, I’m still not sure. Again, because it was covered in some weird liquid or
⏹️ ▶️ John something. I seem to recall one that was like chopped up celery
⏹️ ▶️ John and then like cubes of cucumber and
⏹️ ▶️ John like onions with like a green sprinkly stuff on it and then like
⏹️ ▶️ John a cream based dressing. It’s like you’re just making stuff up like it’s not that’s not anything.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know I don’t know what that’s supposed to be. And yeah like it’s I never know
⏹️ ▶️ John what they’re going to taste like. I can’t predict which ones I’m going to even be able to tolerate but usually a lot of them is one fork full
⏹️ ▶️ John and then it’s like never mind that’s why you save snacks by the way pro
⏹️ ▶️ John tip that’s why in the morning when they have the good danishes and stuff uh find a way to uh
⏹️ ▶️ John successfully save those in your backpack without them destroying all your stuff like piece of tupperware or something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco put the snacks in your purse
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco but i should what i do is i save bananas
⏹️ ▶️ John because they are i don’t have a container like that but i would love to be able to save donuts or danishes because those are good
⏹️ ▶️ John right instead what i end up saving our bananas because they come with their own wrapper and you can put them in your backpack and in general just
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t forget they’re in there if you take a banana and save it so you have desperation food at lunch do not forget
⏹️ ▶️ John that banana is in there because if you leave it for a few days at the bottom of your backpack that you’re sliding your MacBook in and out of
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a bad scene oh my god never has never happened to me but i’m very conscious of it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know i’m a little sad that um well i wasn’t able to go to this place last year because it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey shut down i think in 2015? But what was the name of that?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, Witchcraft, I think it was.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Mad Fientist Witchcraft,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. I mean, the good thing is, it’s a chain. You can get them all over the place, but just not there anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven Connelly Yeah, there was a really good Witchcraft that was right around the corner that I liked. I would typically go and meet
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a buddy from Apple or someone else that was local at Witchcraft one of the days during lunch. There’s also a burger
⏹️ ▶️ Casey place that I’ve been to a couple times. God, I’m drawing a blank the name of it. There’s a couple of them that are close
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to Moscone. Again, they’re obviously a chain and so I’m sure they exist other places too.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But there’s some sort of burger place, SuperDuper, that is right down the road from
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moscone. That’s very good as well. I
⏹️ ▶️ John hey, it’s that backup burger. Backup burger? SuperDuper, the backup burger.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, oh, oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. I’m an idiot. I get it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think I took a picture of that sign to send him last time I was there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So yeah, so anyway, so I’m kind of bummed that I may not have the chance to eat at any of those places. Like I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, uh, witchcraft had already shut down, which I don’t get because it was so tasty. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, but yeah, I, I typically eat the lunches. Uh, I think I’m in the same boat as Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in that I do go out from time to time, but I do generally eat the, the, the lunches
⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably three days at a five. And, and I don’t find myself deeply offended
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by them. I would not say they’re good. I would not say they’re great, but I would not necessarily say they’re actively bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They’re just, they just kind of exist. What did they say about the Mac Mini? It’s a product in our lineup.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is a lunch that is in Moscone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m with you, Casey. I was very happy with that. No, I would say very happy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was consistently satisfied by them. And that was one thing they had. And this is what you need if you’re going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be in the business of mass lunch. What you need is consistency and minimum
⏹️ ▶️ Marco acceptability. And I think they delivered that. They were never great, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’d never had one where I was just like, like oh this is disgusting I can’t eat this like it was it was always fine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco often weird but always fine
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know you as you both had such such a high opinion of this because
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey well it’s not that we have
⏹️ ▶️ John if we’re ever in wwc together again and if we ever have lunches of this calorie again I don’t interrogate you in
⏹️ ▶️ John real time to say that thing that you’re eating let us discuss it in detail right now because
⏹️ ▶️ John my opinion of it is that like I think they are are pretty consistent. Like, they were consistently
⏹️ ▶️ John below average for me. Like, none of, I didn’t, there were no highlights. I can think of that one time they had the
⏹️ ▶️ John really good lunch. I can’t think of that at all. They were always below average. It was just a question of how low. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John none of them, none of them gave me food poisoning. So I’m not going to say they’re like, you know, super
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco terrible. That’s good. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a high bar. Well, I’m pretty sure we found our live venue for our next. I was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to say like, if ever there was a purpose for Periscope, for if ever there was a purpose for Periscope.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s that moment when, when we’re all together and we’re discussing how bad the WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lunches are trying to guess what the side dish is, right? Yeah, exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a new spin off podcast, guess the side dish. What is this?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right? Like, everyone’s talking to like, underscores telling us like about so about all the limitations of all the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new API’s that he has already found.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John trying to figure out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what the heck this side dish is that we’re eating. So true.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And then if we ever if
⏹️ ▶️ John we ever figure it out and and how to identify the ingredients, then we have to come up with a name for it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, this is actually, this has legs. We should run with this. But in true San Franciscan
⏹️ ▶️ Casey style, they just serve the minimum viable lunch, And that’s what you get.