215: Pots Are Made to Be Broken30 Mar 2017
Who knew waffles were so delicious?
- Follow up:
- APFS on iOS
Storage & iCloud Usage→
- Oddities with file names
- Ahoy, Telephone!
- Naked-er Robotic Core
- APFS on iOS
- Marco eats waffles
- MacBook One vs. MacBook Adorable
- Ending theme by Jonathan Mann
- Post-show: Tiff joins us to talk Zelda: Breath of the Wild
- Betterment: Investing made better.
- Audible.com: With Audible, you’ll find what you’re looking for. Get a free 30-day trial.
- Backblaze: Online backup for $5/month. Native. Unlimited. Unthrottled. Uncomplicated.
- The after-show exists
- APFS launches on iOS
- Stationary cylinders
- Sponsor: Backblaze
- Naked Laptop Core 🖼️
- MacBook Escape 🖼️
- Sponsor: Audible
- MacBook naming
- WWDC tickets
- Sponsor: Betterment
- WWDC improvements
- Ending theme
- After-show: Zelda
The after-show exists
⏹️ ▶️ John Some point in the semi near future we should do our I guess biannual which
⏹️ ▶️ John can either mean twice a year or every two years Announcement on the show that there is
⏹️ ▶️ John more of the podcast after the song cuz I still occasionally I still occasionally You know
⏹️ ▶️ John wake up in the middle night and think I wonder how many people stop listening when the song plays
⏹️ ▶️ John It haunts me a little bit done. That’s our
⏹️ ▶️ John That doesn’t count as the announcement. I need to like explain that length as it does no I mean, fine, you can put that
⏹️ ▶️ John in, that’s fine. But I want to explain it, Link. The song plays and then the show continues.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I know it’s confusing, but that’s just what we do. Yes, we have an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco after show. It’s after the theme song. Listen to it. The end.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it needs to be explained.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey How much more does it need? This does not need to be belabored. You think it does need to be belabored? Trust me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Trust us, John. If you were more
⏹️ ▶️ John invasive instead of respecting people’s privacy, we could know exactly when they stopped listening.
⏹️ ▶️ John On Overcast, anyway. But no, you don’t want to collect any data about anybody. Just ask the mid-roll. They probably
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ooh, sick burn. Sick burn. So it’s been
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a big week. Huge week, you could say. Because John Syracuse, you have your new file
⏹️ ▶️ Casey system on your phone, assuming you’ve upgraded. So how about them apples?
⏹️ ▶️ John I did upgrade. I upgraded my device and everybody’s device. Uh, I was very excited to do
⏹️ ▶️ John it. It’s a little less, a bit less exciting than having on your Mac. Cause there’s really no way as far as I’ve been able to
⏹️ ▶️ John determine to tell that you have APFS on your iOS device short of,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, digging around with some dev tool or whatever. One of the things that I heard people mentioning to try,
⏹️ ▶️ John which makes sense to me is, you know, in, uh, settings, general,
⏹️ ▶️ John like storage usage or managed storage, like somewhere you keep going down to the thing that tells you how
⏹️ ▶️ John much room is being taken up on your iOS device by various applications in their files. You know that
⏹️ ▶️ John screen? Well, that screen in the old world had to
⏹️ ▶️ John crawl through each applications, you know, little directory of stuff and add up the
⏹️ ▶️ John size of everything. And it would take a while to load. You’d see it like load some of the things, then you’d wait and there’d be a little spinner
⏹️ ▶️ John and some more applications would appear. And if you, you know, if you looked at it quickly, you’d think, Oh, the thing that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John most using the most storage is whatever’s on the top. But just wait two seconds. Another app will come in another app. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ John my old iPhone six and it was like 20 something seconds. Now I haven’t upgraded that old iPhone six
⏹️ ▶️ John to APFS yet, but in theory, because one of the features that APFS has is what they call fast
⏹️ ▶️ John directory sizing, where the file system keeps track of the size of the, of the stuff that’s under a directory in
⏹️ ▶️ John real time all the time rather than having to crawl over it and calculate it when you ask for it.
⏹️ ▶️ John In theory, that screen
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that shows you
⏹️ ▶️ John how big everything is should be a lot faster. Because I didn’t think to do this until I had upgraded almost every
⏹️ ▶️ John device in the house, I don’t actually have numbers on it, but I can tell you that on my iPhone 7 that I did upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ John it is two to three times as fast as it is on the iPhone 6 that I didn’t upgrade. But
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, when I eventually want to upgrade the iPhone 6, I’ll get timings. But that’s the first thing I could think of to like,
⏹️ ▶️ John how, how will this manifest in a way that you can notice the other way?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John All right, hold on, hold on.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So just to be clear, that’s settings, general, this is in 10.3,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey storage and iCloud usage, and then manage storage, and you’ll see used and available.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then you’ll see all the stuff kind of populate all in one shot. And no, it’s actually
⏹️ ▶️ Casey more than one shot, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John pretty, it does.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not instant, which is what you would think it would be, which makes me think maybe it’s not actually faster because like so many things
⏹️ ▶️ John after OS upgrades there are a lot of sort of false indicators if you you know any
⏹️ ▶️ John any OS upgrade Mac upgrade phone upgrade just even just rebooting makes
⏹️ ▶️ John many things faster subjectively and objectively so it’s very difficult to tell the other item that’s not in
⏹️ ▶️ John the and the notes here but that has come up a lot is like wow I upgraded to 10.3 and suddenly
⏹️ ▶️ John I have more free space on my phone is that a trivial to APFS
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe because of maybe like volume bitmap sizes
⏹️ ▶️ John and and file system metadata but that’s a stretch most likely my theory is that
⏹️ ▶️ John it cleans out you know just rebooting and cleaning out cache files as part of the upgrade process free
⏹️ ▶️ John free space because you know how iOS caches a bunch of crap in places that aren’t really a trivial to any particular
⏹️ ▶️ John application like I don’t know I would there’s nothing specific in APFS unless they’re doing a lot
⏹️ ▶️ John of copy-on-write cloning of duplicate files which I don’t think they are as part of the upgrade process
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t imagine getting back some huge percentage of disk space but I don’t know I haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ John heard a convincing explanation that but certainly it’s possible that merely by rebooting or doing the OS upgrading
⏹️ ▶️ John cleaning out temporary directories you could free up a lot of extra space some people have reported that the total capacity
⏹️ ▶️ John is reported differently and that could be the case as well but there’s a million things that can cause that but anyway I would say
⏹️ ▶️ John fast directory sizing assuming it’s even being used by that storage management screen could
⏹️ ▶️ John be way a way that you can tell this is happening. But even if there is actually no way for you to tell that you’ve upgraded
⏹️ ▶️ John the file system, you can get warm fuzzies inside knowing that a better file system
⏹️ ▶️ John is there under the covers and then erase those warm fuzzies with a giant eraser that says data integrity
⏹️ ▶️ John is still not being checked. So good luck.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, for what it’s worth, ATP tipster in the chat has said that if you have a 64 bit device
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you’re running iOS 10 three, you’re running APFS.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s the story is you don’t have a choice. You get it whether you want it or not. Oh, and one more
⏹️ ▶️ John item on a VFS, the thing that’s actually in here, uh, David Reed wrote in to say that someone in an
⏹️ ▶️ John Arabic speaking country was using his application on iOS 10.3 public beta and they couldn’t open their
⏹️ ▶️ John files until renaming them to English after upgrading from iOS 10.2 to 10.3. This gets back to what
⏹️ ▶️ John we talked about at the end of the last show that APFS does not normalize, uh, the
⏹️ ▶️ John character encoding of file names. And I thought, as I said in the last show, well, that’s a bummer if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John using raw access to the file system through the BSD layer. But surely if you’re using
⏹️ ▶️ John Coco or UI kit or whatever, you know, some high level framework, that you don’t have to worry about this
⏹️ ▶️ John because it will do all that for you on the way down to the file system on the way back up. But apparently, that’s not the case, because
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m assuming David Reed is not using direct BSD APIs to do file IO.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you have an application that is not careful with character encoding, when writing
⏹️ ▶️ John out file names, it could be that previously it worked fine, because you would say, give me the file called cafe with
⏹️ ▶️ John an e with an accent over it and doesn’t really matter how you encoded that in unicode because the file system
⏹️ ▶️ John when searching for the file with that file name would take what you entered no matter how you did it normalize it
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what unicode normalization is is take a representation and encode it in just one way even
⏹️ ▶️ John though you can write that same word seven different ways pick one way to do it there’s a whole bunch of different normalizations
⏹️ ▶️ John defined by unicode but apple’s hfs plus uses a weird variant of one of them and then when you compare
⏹️ ▶️ John to the list of files in the directory in the file system just say well everything in the directory
⏹️ ▶️ John on the file system is normalized and the string that i’m comparing with i just normalized and so i’ll compare them to each other when i get a match i find
⏹️ ▶️ John your file if on the other hand the file system like apfs doesn’t do any normalization
⏹️ ▶️ John i would assume that the file names in the file system are that are pre-existing from like you
⏹️ ▶️ John converted to 10.2 to 10.3 those are normalized according to the hfs normalization but maybe when you look for
⏹️ ▶️ John that file name and you you send in your file, it is not normalized in the same way. And it will search the directory for a file
⏹️ ▶️ John with that name and never find an exact match and say there’s no file by that name file not found. And so that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John why renaming the file to English would, you know, get it into, you know, ASCII or something that isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John encodable in multiple different ways in the normal case would let you find the file. So I don’t know if this is
⏹️ ▶️ John an isolated case or we’re gonna see more of this, but you know, this this apparently is the
⏹️ ▶️ John conscious choice that Apple has made as evidenced by that radar that they closed but
⏹️ ▶️ John saying yep this is the way APFS works that’s not the way HFS works This is the future,
⏹️ ▶️ John everyone get used to it.
APFS launches on iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steve McLaughlin So one other thing to add, and I think Gruber had made mention of this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Daring Fireball, but I think it’s worth noting that it is absolutely bananas to me
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that millions upon millions upon millions of iOS devices have been upgraded, and I have not heard
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a single horror story of somebody’s data getting lost, of some catastrophic
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing happening. I’m sure it did happen. I’m sure there’s someone listening to this show that might have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had it happen to them. But in terms of the circles I typically travel in, I have yet to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hear anyone’s horror stories. And that is unbelievably impressive. And even if there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are a handful of horror stories, there’s been so few that given
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the magnitude of the change that was made, it is preposterous to me that it has gone as well
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey has. It shouldn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John be preposterous, though, because on a past episode, like this is not to denigrate the work, the file system and the
⏹️ ▶️ John I would say also like the upgrade team, whoever does the upgrader like did they did good work. This is how this is how things work
⏹️ ▶️ John in technical circles and in programming Um much much like marco’s, uh, favorite hobby
⏹️ ▶️ John horse It doesn’t really matter how hard you try on something that you don’t get there’s no points for
⏹️ ▶️ John effort um Staying really late and trying really hard and being a good person
⏹️ ▶️ John and all those things don’t help uh What makes you avoid? Or
⏹️ ▶️ John makes you have a program that is successful uh, and that works correctly is
⏹️ ▶️ John is designed is like, you know, what is the structure of this thing? So as we discussed in past shows, the way
⏹️ ▶️ John this file system and many modern file systems works for it, that allows it to do this conversion is that it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John move any of the data. It leaves everything exactly where it is. And it doesn’t modify the file system at
⏹️ ▶️ John all. It just writes a new set of metadata pointing to all the existing data. And it can do that
⏹️ ▶️ John at its leisure at any point of that process fails or, you know, something. It doesn’t matter. It has not done anything
⏹️ ▶️ John destructive to the file system. only after it has done a complete accounting with complete new metadata pointing to
⏹️ ▶️ John the other data that’s sitting there at rest, not being moved, not being modified in any way, does it do one
⏹️ ▶️ John quick, small critical section that says, and switcheroo, use this instead of that. And that
⏹️ ▶️ John tiny crit, like that’s design, as opposed to saying, I’m gonna convert this by, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John doing like a, you know, slide puzzles where there’s like a little open space, and you
⏹️ ▶️ John one little tile is not there, so you have to slide the tiles around into the constantly in the open space. It could convert your file system,
⏹️ ▶️ John piecemeal like that saying I’m going to use this free space to start writing a new file system I’m going to copy all the data piece at a time
⏹️ ▶️ John to that new thing for pretty much that entire process your file system is hosed if anything fails
⏹️ ▶️ John at any point you have like a complete unbootable garbage system and no matter how hard you try
⏹️ ▶️ John like oh I’m a really good program I’m gonna make that process really foolproof you can’t because the design is
⏹️ ▶️ John bad the reason this works flawlessly the only way you could ever get something like this to work as as you know
⏹️ ▶️ John as successfully as it has is with a design that allows you to do that. So this is another
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the advantages of modern file systems, you couldn’t do this with the conversion from HFS to HFS plus,
⏹️ ▶️ John there were utilities to do it, and they were terrifying, right? It’s good design up front.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also on top of that, also a good execution of that design, obviously. So there’s, you know, all credit where credit is
⏹️ ▶️ John due. But I found that in my experience, as a programmer for low these many years,
⏹️ ▶️ John no matter how no matter how much effort and what a good job you do an execution, if your initial design
⏹️ ▶️ John has doesn’t have certain properties that you need, there’s really not much you can do. Whereas if you have a good
⏹️ ▶️ John design, and you have one or two bugs, it’s easy to shake them out. And to be you know, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like when you when you design something that comes out better than you thought it did. And it solves even more problems than you thought it would,
⏹️ ▶️ John and has fewer bugs than you thought, because it’s just a good design. It’s just a matter of like, mechanically, making that design
⏹️ ▶️ John successful, it is so much less painful than when you, you know, do your best effort to implement something
⏹️ ▶️ John that is ultimately a flawed designer that you’re asking to do something that it wasn’t meant to do. So kudos to the
⏹️ ▶️ John file system team for coming up with the file system that has this property in its design that it can
⏹️ ▶️ John do this. And then also, by the way, successfully doing it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it’s just, it’s really impressive. And, and, you know, I’ve heard rumors a couple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of years ago, right around New Year’s about how their software, software reliability really had gone down
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the crapper. And this is a positive step in the other direction.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really am very impressed with the rollout of APFS. If you would have asked us
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back when it was announced this past summer, what devices do we think will have it first? I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco forget whether we actually did speculate on this or not, but we would have almost certainly said they would have been the most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco careful and would have taken the longest to put it on the iPhone, because they have the most iPhones. It’s the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most high-profile device, right? The fact that they deployed on 100% of iPhones with the, well, 100% of 64-bit iPhones with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this newest update first, as the first deployment of this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco file system, is incredibly impressive, very bold. And the fact that, as you said, there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was really seemingly no problems with it is incredibly cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even though John says it’s easy-ish, I know, asterisk, asterisk, but
⏹️ ▶️ John not easy, it’s just the design allows it to happen. Sure. that was the important part of the decision, not,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you know what I mean? Like, with this design, that’s why I feel like they can be emboldened to do this, because if
⏹️ ▶️ John they had a different design, no matter how careful they were, it could be that the correct move would have been,
⏹️ ▶️ John we can never upgrade people in place. The only way we roll this out is by people buying new phones, because we have no way to
⏹️ ▶️ John safely convert. That would have had to be the decision if you didn’t have a system like this, because it would be crazy to say, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re going to start these 50 minute upgrades. And if anything goes wrong at any point, people’s phones are bricked. And by the way, they lose
⏹️ ▶️ John all their data, because we’ve just basically scrambled it it into soup. If that was the choice, you had to say, there is no conversion,
⏹️ ▶️ John you will get APFS when you buy a new iPhone. That’s it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And the fact that they were able to do this, and that they just did it kind of silently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this point update, it wasn’t even like a major OS update. That’s pretty cool. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does make a lot of sense on a phone in the sense that, like, as we mentioned, when this was first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco announced, like on a phone, the entire software ecosystem around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phones is meant for you to ideally, as long as you participate in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco various cloud services and backup services, that ideally your phone can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get flushed out of toilet at any moment and you can go buy a new phone and log in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have everything just restore to it. So in that sense, it is kind of a lower risk than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way most people’s Macs are set up, but still deploying it to their largest device
⏹️ ▶️ Marco family and highest profile device family where like if anything went wrong, it would have been massive headline
⏹️ ▶️ Marco news. That was a bold move, and they did it well, so kudos to them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the countervailing forces, of course. Why would they even bother doing it on the Mac? Because they care so much more about the
⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone. So it’s like, how much you care about the product and want to invest in it versus the incredible danger, as you said,
⏹️ ▶️ John of like, if you make a mistake on the iPhone, it’s a big deal. And I don’t know if the 10.3 beta was longer than normal, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I think having wider, more public betas for longer periods of time is another
⏹️ ▶️ John factor making them feel okay. And going forward with this again, even with the good design,
⏹️ ▶️ John just to make sure that you know, you do have everything worked out because, because this doesn’t move any of the data,
⏹️ ▶️ John like this, the conversion in effect does kind of an equivalent of the HFS plus FSC k, because it has to
⏹️ ▶️ John go find where all the data is, again, kind of like when you run disk first aid, and it finds out like, you know, some some metadata
⏹️ ▶️ John is wrong, because there’s some space on your disk that it thought was occupied, but that’s actually free or something, and it updates
⏹️ ▶️ John its metadata, it has to crawl over every little bit of data and find out where all of it is. So maybe that also
⏹️ ▶️ John is performed as part of the conversion. But still, if there are mistakes, somewhere
⏹️ ▶️ John on your on your, on your disk, essentially, not that you have a disk in there, this is not going to
⏹️ ▶️ John fix them, it’s going to preserve them, and they’re going to still going to be there. So if you have some sort of problem,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s in theory, even though they’re not modifying the data, it could, you know, upon rebooting or doing
⏹️ ▶️ John something else, because of the difference in the way APFS works, it could reveal a pre pre-existing HFS plus problem.
⏹️ ▶️ John I have no idea if phones ever run FSDK or how they deal with that, but considering they have run HFS
⏹️ ▶️ John plus for so long, those same errors that we all find when we run disk utility on our Macs surely are there on our
⏹️ ▶️ John phones as well. And nothing about this conversion process is going to help
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh goodness, all right, anything else on APFS? I’m surprised, I mean, this is your crowning
⏹️ ▶️ Casey moment, my friend, this and Swift. I
⏹️ ▶️ John wanna know my Mac, I’m just a Mac guy, I’m just a Mac guy at heart. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann it’s cool that it’s on the
⏹️ ▶️ John phone, but, you know, like, on the Mac, because, like, you can feel the
⏹️ ▶️ John coolness more on the Mac. On the Mac, in theory, if the Finder implements the, like, instant copy thing, you can take, like, a,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, 20-gig file and duplicate it and see that it happens in a fraction of a second and your disk space doesn’t go
⏹️ ▶️ John down. You don’t get that kind of experience on a phone, come on. Laughter Cautious.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Aye, aye, aye. All right. Tom Jones writes in. That’s not the singer,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? He writes in, I heard John extolling the virtues of being able to just say to the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey air, how many teaspoons are there in a cup? And his Amazon Echo would answer the question, and Tom has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey provided the answer, which is 48. While there’s no doubt that this is a great thing to be able to do, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can also do that with the iPhone, something he would certainly know if he had said, what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was it, ahoy telephone, Or if he had had an Ahoy telephone enabled for more than a couple
⏹️ ▶️ John I put this in there because we talked about it in the last show, but apparently he didn’t emphasize it enough. Like what is the difference between,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, setting aside how well the services do when they understand you, what is the difference between hasty a** versus having
⏹️ ▶️ John a cylinder in your house that listens to you? Oh, did I do it again?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey See, it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John on my phone, so no problem here. The big difference, the big difference is that
⏹️ ▶️ John cylinders do not move. Like you plug them in to the wall
⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re in a particular place. Uh, and then also on top of that, cylinders in my
⏹️ ▶️ John experience have better microphones. Maybe it’s because they’re stationary. Maybe it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re upright. Maybe it’s because they just have more mics. I think the Amazon echo has many mics in
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Yeah. Um, and what that means is the experience of talking to the air,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, two things. One is going to be more successful because the thing doesn’t move and it has more mics. So it’s always going to be
⏹️ ▶️ John in the same proximity. so you can get a feel for when and how can I say this and how loud do I have to speak to be heard and everything because it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not variable. And two, the most important thing that I mentioned when I was talking about talking to
⏹️ ▶️ John silencers is getting over the idea, like getting yourself to instinctively understand
⏹️ ▶️ John that something is listening, understanding that you can talk to the air. Because if you have to think about it first,
⏹️ ▶️ John hmm, maybe I should ask this to the air. Oh, is the thing in the air nearby or listening to me? Like
⏹️ ▶️ John getting over that so it becomes unconscious and so you just expect it to be there. To do
⏹️ ▶️ John that, you have to know, you have to not have to think about, is the cylinder
⏹️ ▶️ John near? Where is it? And with my phone, my phone is all over the house, right? My phone could be upstairs, downstairs, in a
⏹️ ▶️ John different room, or whatever. The cylinders don’t move, and that lets me eventually become comfortable when I’m,
⏹️ ▶️ John say, in the kitchen, which is always a fixed distance from where my cylinder is, knowing that I can rely on the thing
⏹️ ▶️ John being there. Whereas I don’t have to think about where is my phone, right? Or is my phone
⏹️ ▶️ John face down or face up, or in a case, or buried underneath someone’s hat on an end table so it can’t hear
⏹️ ▶️ John me or anything like that. And so setting aside again what it does when it hears you and the
⏹️ ▶️ John variability of how good these devices are. I think Gruber just posted a thing about CarPlay versus Android
⏹️ ▶️ John Auto in which Siri did not come out looking particularly good and not because it couldn’t understand people
⏹️ ▶️ John because that is another fixed distance from microphone thing. But you would think this is a minor thing, but
⏹️ ▶️ John the cylinders being stationary and having better mics is what makes the experience get over
⏹️ ▶️ John the hump for me anyway, from being maybe I could occasionally talk to my telephone if
⏹️ ▶️ John it happens to be nearby versus 100% when I’m in my kitchen I can shout out a rule,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, a thing to set a timer and it will just be set and it will hear me the first time and it will always work and I don’t have
⏹️ ▶️ John to think about where anything else I own is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Backblaze, unlimited native online backup for Mac
⏹️ ▶️ Marco For a free trial, visit backblaze.com slash ATP. I love
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco because there are so many hazards that could happen to your computer that could lose your data.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even if you have, say, a time machine drive, or a local disk clone of some sort,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is good, you should probably have it. Backblaze even says you should have that as well, because it’s fast to restore from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those, and they can be very convenient. But you also need online backup because there are lots of hazards
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can happen to your computer that would also affect any backup drive that’s connected to it or that’s in the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco house or apartment or business as the computer. So things like fires, floods, theft,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco malware, there are so many risks that can happen. And online backup protects from so many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those. It’s such great peace of mind to just have it always be running, it’s automatic, it’s always there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco backing up your files safe and sound. You don’t have to remember to do anything, you don’t have to wait until you’re at home or wait till
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the computer’s asleep or whatever else, it’s just always running, always keeping you safe. Backblaze
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, in my opinion, and I’ve tried many of them, Backblaze is the best one of these. They can’t pay me to say that. I’m telling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you that because I believe it. It is my favorite one. It’s the one I use, the one I trust my family’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco data to and all my business data to, because Backblaze is great. You have unlimited space.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You just pay per computer. Five bucks a month for unlimited space per computer. My wife has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a computer, I have a computer, so we pay him 10 bucks a month. I think we have like six or seven terabytes in there. We have some obscene
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amount of storage in there because it’s unlimited. You just pay per computer and it backs up anything connected
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to that computer. It’s wonderful. And they have great features like a mobile app so you can restore files
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right onto your phone or tablet, iOS and Android. So if you like wanna get a file
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off your home computer, if you’re traveling or whatever else, you can get it through Backblaze. They also have very easy restores.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can go online for restores. You can also have a hard drive overrided to you via FedEx. and if you send it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back within 30 days, you get a refund. They have such great options. Their client
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is amazing, fully native code, nothing with Java or anything like that. It’s fully native code and it’s fast
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Naked Laptop Core
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Backblaze.com slash ATP, unlimited native online backup. Thank you very much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Backblaze for sponsoring our show.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tell me, John, about the Even Naked-er Robotic Core.
⏹️ ▶️ John I hesitate to put this in here because it’s another Apple patent thing, and it doesn’t involve patent hands, which is the main thing I enjoy
⏹️ ▶️ John patents for. Apple patents everything, and every time someone
⏹️ ▶️ John comes out with an Apple patent that’s published, sites post it and say look at
⏹️ ▶️ John this thing that apple patented and at least at this point most sites don’t say maybe this is coming soon they just say look
⏹️ ▶️ John apple patents everything
⏹️ ▶️ John um i think this one is supposed to show all ideas are on the table
⏹️ ▶️ John when it comes to patenting things this is you can see it from the little picture here it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like a laptop uh but imagine that where the trackpad is someone someone
⏹️ ▶️ John took a router and routed out the trackpad you can’t even do this on on modern laptops because they’re too thin, but routed
⏹️ ▶️ John out the trackpad to the thickness and shape of a phone, and instead of the trackpad,
⏹️ ▶️ John dropped an iPhone into there. And the idea is this would like be like giving your iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John a bigger screen and a physical keyboard, and then the iPhone would merely become a glass trackpad for the whole rest
⏹️ ▶️ John of the device. So it’s sort of turning your phone into a laptop in an even more bizarre way than
⏹️ ▶️ John turning your iPad into a laptop. And in some In some respects, this
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t strike me as entirely ridiculous. The reason this is related to the Naked Robotic Core, it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John look, we’ll give you the little skinny computing core and whatever you wanna put around it is fine. If you wanna put a 13 inch
⏹️ ▶️ John screen and a physical keyboard around it, sure, go for it, because the iPhone is plenty fast. And
⏹️ ▶️ John the current top of the line iPhone, I believe, is currently faster than the MacBook, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John And single-threaded
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco anyway. Probably in certain things, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s RAM-starved compared to the MacBook, but it’s got
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco half, I guess.
⏹️ ▶️ John Does the MacBook have, the MacBook One have four gigs? It has eight. All right, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John so it’s still Ramstar. But anyway, this idea that eventually phones will become powerful enough to do basic computing
⏹️ ▶️ John tasks and you can just carry that phone around with you and if you ever want a laptop, all you would do is snap your
⏹️ ▶️ John little Naked Robotic Core phone into a laptop-shaped thing and then sit down
⏹️ ▶️ John and do a bunch of writing or bang out some email or do web browsing on a larger screen and then when you’re done,
⏹️ ▶️ John yank your phone out of the little router channel and snapshot the now lifeless corpse of a laptop.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s probably a bad name for this product, corpse.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then go on your way with your phone. I think that’s actually kind of neat. The problem of course being that I
⏹️ ▶️ John believe Apple’s laptops are now thinner than their phones at that part, especially the MacBook One. So probably
⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna happen, it’s just a silly patent, but I like thinking about stuff like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this. Also, I don’t know, I mean, this probably could change, but if you feel,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you put your iPhone next to your trackpad and you feel them both, the trackpad has a more slippery
⏹️ ▶️ Marco finish because you’re moving all over it more often, whereas the glass on a phone is a little bit more of a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tacky, higher friction finish. Are you
⏹️ ▶️ John complaining about the thumb friction again?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I’m not entirely sure that you could make a surface that would feel good on both
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those. You make the
⏹️ ▶️ John back of the phone, the capacitive touch thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well then why not just plug the phone to the side of the laptop, like an optical drive?
⏹️ ▶️ John One thing they don’t answer in this diagram. I didn’t read the patent medicine It is like how how the phone would make
⏹️ ▶️ John a connection to the corpse shell like because if it goes straight down in You
⏹️ ▶️ John can’t have the like does something come out and go into the lightning connector. I call that little mechanical thing It
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t really make much sense to me, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco could be like an NES where you slide it in first and you push it down
⏹️ ▶️ John Johnny I would have to want it to be like seamless where it just you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, then you got to like take it out blow on it put it back in the power light blinks I’ll blow it on it again. Don’t blow on it, it’s bad
⏹️ ▶️ John carts. Did you ever see that thing with the, what was it, like electrostatic cutting of metal
⏹️ ▶️ John where they will take a block of metal, like a solid cube of metal, and cut out like a cylinder shape
⏹️ ▶️ John in the middle of it? And do it with such precision and with such a small gap that if you take
⏹️ ▶️ John the cylinder and put it into the hole, like you take them apart
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey so you’ve got a square,
⏹️ ▶️ John you take the cylinder and put it into the hole, it slowly slides down because it’s like the world’s
⏹️ ▶️ John tightest fit and when it finally slides down all the way you can’t even see the line around it. I love that stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow, we did well on follow-up. Look at us. Mostly because we moved half of this from follow-up to topics,
⏹️ ▶️ John Move the waffles down because now we’re gonna, yeah. It’s kind of cheating. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann right.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, I don’t know. I could have seen waffles go either way, but you wanted to go lower, that’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because technically speaking, in this never-ending chain of Marcos laptop orders,
⏹️ ▶️ John if it is eternally follow-up, it just feels like he’s doing a combo chain in a fighting game that’s going
⏹️ ▶️ John on way too long. At a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco certain point, you have
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyone want to do the combo breaker noise? I don’t know, I meant reference maybe over your head. Anyway, certain point you have to do a combo breaker.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what we’re doing here. Marco is into the topic area, talking about his delicious, delicious waffles.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed, so Marco, tell us about those waffles of yours.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, yeah, so last episode I described my waffling where I finally decided that I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really didn’t like the 15-inch Touch Bar MacBook Pro and I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ordering a 13-inch MacBook Escape to replace it, which for those of you not familiar with my stupid
⏹️ ▶️ Marco names for things is the low-end MacBook Pro, the 13-inch that does not have the touch bar,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has the real hardware escape button, among other things.
⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t apologize for your names, they’re not stupid, they’re better than Apple’s names.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s true. The name of this product, the reason I came up with these stupid names
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is because Apple’s names aren’t useful. Like when they first introduced the 12-inch MacBook, and they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just said, this is the MacBook. It’s like, well, okay, there was already something called MacBook that everyone knew, and everything else is called MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro, and people kinda used the word MacBook to describe the whole lineup and yeah, so now they have this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 13-inch MacBook Pro, which is quite different from the other computer named 13-inch MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So anyway. So I now have it, I got it a few days ago.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want to reserve final judgment for when I’ve had a chance to travel with it, and that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fortunately happening in like a week, because I haven’t really tried pushing it yet. Like I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco haven’t tried travel with it yet, and I haven’t really pushed its hardware yet. Although, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco photo analysis D is doing its job for, who knows, the next month. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have no idea when it will complete
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John because there’s no
⏹️ ▶️ Marco progress meter, no way to pause it or suspend it or tell it what to do or tell it to please not analyze all the photos
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now. You can always reanalyze it. Oh, you know, I didn’t think, well, I think it’s already running in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a fairly low priority environment.
⏹️ ▶️ John out what the lowest number is. Yeah. Anyway. Then it will literally never complete.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s better, you’re ready to do the, you know, the race to sleep thing, let it hurry up and finish.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so at some point that will calm down, probably, hopefully before I leave for my trip.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But anyway, from just the experience of using it for a few days, from setting up all my software
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it, and we’ll get to one of the details of that in a little bit I think, but just from the experience of like setting it up and using
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it that way for a while, and doing a few nights of kind of casual
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff on it, like browsing the web and getting light work done, like email and stuff. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco far, I love it. I absolutely love it. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I never felt that way about the 15-inch. Like the 15-inch, I love the 15-inch Retina. When that came out in 2012, I immediately loved it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That machine was awesome for its time. Still today is pretty awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But when the 15 Touch Bar, when I first got it, I never loved it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was just kind of thrown by all the different compromises and kind of sideways and backwards steps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from the previous one. This is basically a MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air, but a modern day interpretation of it in many ways. You know, it’s the same weight. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so is the other 13-inch with Touch Bar. Same weight, a little bit smaller, modern case design,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco same Intel processor family, which has those awesome like 16 or 15 watt-ish
⏹️ ▶️ Marco processors, which I’ve said before on this show are an amazing balance of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco speed versus portability. It’s a really nice sweet spot and I’m really glad they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using these still. Because those are previously only used in the MacBook Air and the low-end
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Mini and I think even the cheapest 22-inch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or 24-inch iMac that education buyers buy. Anyway, so far I absolutely love
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. The keyboard is the same as all the new keyboards. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco love the low key travel. I don’t love how closely spaced all the keys are which makes me make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a few more mistakes than I usually do. The Force Touch trackpad is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco among Force Touch trackpads I have used. I think it’s probably the best one. I still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t love Force Touch trackpads but this is the best one I’ve used. Thermally,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s really nicely balanced. It stays very cool and you hardly ever hear the fan no matter
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how hard it’s working. When it’s totally maxed out, you will hear the fan, but even then it’s pretty quiet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it doesn’t get very hot to the touch. This is one thing I’ve noticed with all the new MacBook Pros. When you compare
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the previous generation, the Retina generation with the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Haswell, and when you compare the new Skylake ones to those, one thing you notice
⏹️ ▶️ Marco immediately, and I actually confirmed this with Intel’s Power Gadget thing, or Power Widget, whatever they call it. The CPUs,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even when they’re under load, these new Skylake processors don’t usually hit their maximum thermal limits,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whereas the old ones would kind of like hit that like 45 watt or whatever, they would like hit that wall and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just kind of stay there. Skylight kind of peeks at it here and there, but it doesn’t really stay at that maximum
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wattage for whatever reason. And so when you’re doing intensive things, these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new MacBook Pros are cooler to the touch and quieter than the previous generation. And this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one is no exception to that. It’s very cool, very quiet. That to me is very, very nice.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One other major advantage to it compared to the 15 is that because it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have that discrete GPU, I don’t have to babysit whether
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s using that GPU by any programs or not when I’m trying to maximize battery life.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because that’s the thing with the 15 is when the 15 is using that discrete GPU, your battery life gets slaughtered.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if you’re a power user trying to make sure you get the most battery life out of it, you kind of have to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco always be monitoring with some kind of utility or something whether the discrete GPU is on or not, and you kind of have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to babysit it and maybe make different app decisions, like, oh, I guess I can’t run Chrome
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now because I don’t have enough power or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. This one, by not having a discrete GPU,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it kind of keeps, like, the difference between the high thermal envelope and the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco low thermal envelope is a smaller range. So you can worry
⏹️ ▶️ Marco less about battery life with this so far. Now, again, I might modify that decision once I have a chance to travel
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with it. But so far, this is awesome. Now, also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the Touch Bar and Touch ID. So I had the Touch Bar and Touch ID for a little while, for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco five months or whatever it’s been. I now don’t have them anymore. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco miss the Touch Bar at all. The very first time I wanted to adjust brightness and I had to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hit a button a few times instead of sliding a thing, I thought, oh, I kinda missed the slider thing. Then I immediately
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stopped, I immediately forgot about it. I don’t miss the Touch ID at all. Touch ID
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought I would miss a lot. In practice I do miss Touch ID
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I don’t miss it as much as I thought I would because in practice Touch ID
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the 15 inch and the 13 touch bar is not always there when you want it. And this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is probably going to improve over time I hope. But there’s a lot of system dialogues and things where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they ask where you need to give it your password that Touch ID is offered for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe a third of them that I’ve seen and not all of them. And so you actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco aren’t using it all the time. So I found that it is nice when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s offered to you, but that because it’s offered so inconsistently
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and sometimes there’s a few bugs regarding Touch ID, especially at the login screen when you’re waking it up from sleep,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I find overall that I actually don’t miss it as much as I I expected I would because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in practice, while it sounds like it’s gonna be amazing, once you have it in practice, you realize,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, it’s not quite there yet. So this is another thing where like, along with the Touch Bar,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this would probably be good in a few years, or at least better
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a few years. But for this current laptop generation, if you choose not to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get the Touch Bar, I don’t think you’re missing that much because Touch ID is still not all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way there yet. And the touch bar itself, I think, is still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big question mark about whether it’s really a net win or not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And for me, for my usage personally and my preferences, your mileage may vary, but for my usage
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and preferences, I’m very happy without it. I like having my hardware escape key
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back. I like having all the buttons up top that are just buttons and they just work all the time. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco love not accidentally brushing it when I’m moving my hands around and accidentally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco turning the brightness way up or turning the speaker way down or something. It is nice to, and it’s also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just nice to have a kind of, I know this is weird, but it’s kind of like a simpler look. Like the Touch Bar is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually kind of distracting and it looks kind of gimmicky. And so to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a nice, simpler, more pure look, if that makes sense, is a little bit more,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know, peaceful. It’s hard to really quantify these feelings, but overall I’m actually quite
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happy not having the Touch Bar. And this machine in general,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m extremely happy with. The only things I can say that are downsides
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to it are what I mentioned last week, which is the price is really not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a great value for what you’re getting. Although, I guess, how much is your happiness worth? But if you look at specs,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the specs and the power, and when you compare it to the previous generation MacBook Air,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is still for sale because Apple, it’s not a great value. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot more expensive than it was before. And the configuration I got, which is basically everything maxed out, except for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the, I got 512 instead of a terabyte, is something like $2,200. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for something that is not a 15 inch, that’s a pretty high price. That being said, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happier with it than my 15 inch. So, you know, what does that say? The other thing is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I remember when these first came out, we talked briefly in the show, There was a guy, I forget his name, he’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco YouTuber that everyone else knows except us because we’re not cool, we’re too old to watch YouTube I guess. But there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was a YouTuber who did a bunch of tests where plugging in certain things to the USB-C
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ports would make the Wi-Fi cut out on the new MacBook Pros. And I think that was this model
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that he was testing, because I think that was the only one that was available at that time. I think I have a Wi-Fi problem.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In that sometimes, as I was installing lots of stuff and downloading lots of stuff,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes all the internet connections would just stop working.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And until I turned off the wifi and turned it back on again, that, and that happened like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco three times over a few days. So I think I have a problem, and I hope it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t apply to all of them, and I’m not sure that’s enough of a problem to actually get this repaired
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or replaced, because I don’t want to mess with that. Everything else about it is perfect. I love
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything else about it. Actually, I don’t love the keyboard, but relative to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what we have today, relative to our choices today, this is great. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m a little concerned about that Wi-Fi thing, but otherwise, if that doesn’t end up being
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a problem in practice most of the time, I would just tolerate it, because otherwise, this computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is awesome. You know, the 15-inch is great if you’re doing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, Casey, what you do, which is you have like a work laptop that you take to and from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco work, or that is like your primary computer, or your only computer, if that’s your situation,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it does make sense for a lot of people to use the 15 inch, because it is the most computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you can get for a little over 2,000 bucks. It is a great, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco power system, and it’s really nice in a lot of ways, and I used one for years, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a reason why I have waffled over time between the 13-inch and 15-inch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco size classes because they’re both great. But for me right now, as a secondary
⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer that I use when traveling, right now I’m really happy with this 13-inch. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could point at this clip and laugh in four months or six months when I change my mind and say, I gotta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go back to the 15-inch, this is not enough power or screen space
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s being generous, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna be four weeks. Well, it took me like five months on this one. But anyway, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I might change my mind later, I probably will, that’s just what I do, I guess. Other tech podcasters, they’ll try
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Android phones for a month. I do this, I guess. This is my thing. But right now, I’m extremely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happy with this 13-inch MacBook Pro with no good name. And yeah, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my review so far. Ask me again after I travel with it and try to actually do work on it. But so far,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m very happy with it.
⏹️ ▶️ John So that WiFi thing has me worried. Me too. I don’t like that. Especially if I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John attribute a reason. Do you have a 1012 four on it?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, a 1012 four from minute one. It didn’t come with it, but I upgraded it. That was the first thing I did when I got it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And when the Wi-Fi dropped, it was not plugged into anything. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is concerning. The fact that this computer has now been out for six months and that is still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happening, suggests to me that this is an inherent flaw with the design of this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco model that they’re not going to fix until the next model comes out.
⏹️ ▶️ John But you think it’s a hardware thing then? Probably, yeah. But we will see. I don’t like this
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of problems. I don’t like them at all.
⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t buy any computers ever. That’s very true. My computer has no Wi-Fi problems because it doesn’t have Wi-Fi.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it! As it so happens, the 2008 Mac Pro that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have, that I used to have, is probably the computer I have had that had the fewest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems ever of any computer I’ve ever had. So you happen to luck out with that one, but I think anything else you buy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re going to be disappointed.
⏹️ ▶️ John Same. I mean, so far, fingers crossed, 5K iMac is doing its thing without
⏹️ ▶️ Marco My image retention is getting really bad really fast. It’s getting bad. Every time I do anything gray,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I open up Logic or if I view Daring Fireball, I just see the immense shadows of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything that I was viewing before.
⏹️ ▶️ John like me playing Zelda, seeing those heart shadows.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s bad. You know what I did, Marco, to help fix that? I’m really not trying to be snarky, is you know that, what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is it, Arial screensaver that we’ve all, I think, mentioned at some point?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The ones, the Apple TV one?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Arial is the name of the screensaver. What I’ve done is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve put that on my 5K, which I’ve occasionally seen some image retention that has made me very unhappy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve set my Mac to run that screensaver for like an hour or two after I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey done with the computer so that you have something that is constantly moving and kind of getting me back
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to a known good state. For all I know, this is a darn placebo, but as far as I can tell, it has made my image
⏹️ ▶️ Casey retention way, way, way better. Why
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t you try getting a screen with some technology doesn’t suffer from image retention. I don’t believe
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what you said to me last time I complained about my plasma. As you
⏹️ ▶️ John both complained about your LCDs with image retention. Good thing OLED doesn’t have these problems. Oh wait, it does.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, I mean, in cases like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, that wouldn’t actually help my problem because my problem is not like I walked away for 10 minutes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like as I’m using it, like I happen to have this one window open for an hour as I was working in it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then it moves, it’s like, it’s getting, and image retention is the kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of thing where sometimes you have it right at the beginning, but usually when the thing’s brand new, it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have it. And then if it’s gonna be a problem, you won’t notice it for a while, and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of a sudden it’ll start being noticeable, and then it gets worse, usually, at an accelerating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rate after that point.
⏹️ ▶️ John Someone who knows more about the chemistry and electronics of LCDs could probably tell us why
⏹️ ▶️ John this is a factor in these modern LG panels or whatever it is we’re using, and why,
⏹️ ▶️ John for example, I’m staring at the Apple 23-inch cinema display in aluminum case with white sides
⏹️ ▶️ John that has no image retention ever and is like the oldest thing ever. Like, there must,
⏹️ ▶️ John again, it’s not just like, oh, LCD versus plasma versus whatever. It’s the particular screens. And so maybe there’s been something
⏹️ ▶️ John about modern screens and the way they’re constructed and formulated, or maybe just by a particular manufacturer
⏹️ ▶️ John that makes them so much more susceptible image retention under casual circumstances. Like again, we’ve all
⏹️ ▶️ John seen like the the check-in kiosks at the airport that are just super burned in. So like at a certain point, if you
⏹️ ▶️ John show the same image on the screen, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, except for brief periods of activity, of course, it’s going
⏹️ ▶️ John to happen. But you’re just using your five gamut. It’s pretty light usage compared to an airport
⏹️ ▶️ John terminal. You just say like, I have daring fireball open for a second, then I click to another window to go in front of it. And I see the little
⏹️ ▶️ John star embedded in the window or vice versa.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, it’s the opposite. It’s like when you have a bunch of black and white windows up, you load something great like daring fireball
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or logic, then you see shadows of every of all those black and white borders that were previously there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so it’s sticking around longer now than it did before to like, I had an entire
⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast today. Like I edited under the radar today, which admittedly doesn’t take me that long, take like 10
⏹️ ▶️ Marco minutes to edit, but like that entire 10 minute edit, I had a shadow of the window behind it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, not going away. That’s the other thing about it. But like my plasma, obviously, it’s worse on my plasma, because when it does get there,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to be waiting like a year for it to be
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann entirely
⏹️ ▶️ John gone. Whereas image retention, like my iPad three had pretty bad image retention too.
⏹️ ▶️ John But as bad as it was, and you could see it was like three to five minutes and it would be 100% gone.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so that’s preferable makes you feel like oh, it’s an annoyance. But But it’s not like I have to wait
⏹️ ▶️ John a year for this to go away. But anyway, like didn’t Apple do a recall replace for image retention?
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it was on the original retina 15 inch MacBook Pro, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There were certain I think it was certain ones. Mine wasn’t even part of that. I had that original one, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did have image retention and I eventually got it fixed but it took a long time. One thing before I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco forget, on the Macbook Escape screen, it is a beautiful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen. I absolutely love it. As I’m setting everything up new,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the things I did, I usually pick a background that’s some photo I took recently that I like.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The photo I picked for this one includes my son wearing a really bright, saturated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco orange jacket. I think this is the P3 color gamut helping me out here
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because this very saturated orange color just looks incredible on this screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the first screen I’ve ever seen that makes my first gen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 5K iMac screen look less good by comparison. Every other previous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Retina laptop looked worse to me. This one looks awesome. Now that being said, the same thing probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco applies to the 15-inch. I’d use a different picture for the wallpaper on that one. So the same thing probably applies to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new 15. But just to point out, even on this one, which is basically the new MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air, the previous MacBook Air used a crap screen to save cost and space and whatever else.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The MacBook Escape today is amazing. It is an awesome screen. And to have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that on what is, you know, the low-end model, even though it’s still not a good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco value, but it is in the lineup, it is the low-end model. To have that is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really, really nice. And I’m extremely happy. I can’t overstate how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happy I am right now with this purchase, even though the Wi-Fi doesn’t always work, apparently.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, as someone who is considering getting a MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey One, which as far as I know is a MacBook Adorable, right? put in the show notes MacBook One versus
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John MacBook Adorable. We’ll address that after you get to your point.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re freaking me out here, because I always use them interchangeably, and I got nervous that I had misunderstood. So anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so as someone who’s considering a MacBook Adorable slash MacBook One, remind me
⏹️ ▶️ Casey again what it was that brought you to this instead of a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook One. Obviously power, but what else was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it? It was when I put them both side by side in the Apple store on the table, and I played with them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while, because I went in on a weekday where nobody was there. So when I had some time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with both side by side, and also thinking back to when I did briefly buy a 12
⏹️ ▶️ Marco inch MacBook One, basically the main difference to me is just the way they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco feel, the ergonomics of using them. That the 12 inch size
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is really small, and in certain ways that actually makes it less comfortable, for me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at least. And again, your mileage may vary, but for me, the general operation of it, like where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to place your hands, opening and closing it, all these things, it was pleasant at how small
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and light it was, but when it came time to actually put it down, open it up, use it, type on it, put
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in your lap, I found the 13 inch size worked better for me, it was more comfortable. I also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco found a dramatic difference in the trackpad click. That’s a huge, if you put
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it side by side, do it in a store, put them side by side, the trackpad difference is extremely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco noticeable. And there is still a keyboard difference as well. I don’t know how long the keyboard difference will be there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m assuming that the next MacBook 12-inch update will bring the keyboard parity there,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but right now there’s still a keyboard difference. And it’s not a massive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco difference, but the 13-inch is just better. And so in all those ways,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the physical ergonomics, the 13-inch is 50% heavier. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco noticeable how much heavier it is than the 12-inch, but it’s still a really small, It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a 13-inch MacBook Air in weight. It’s still a really thin and light computer. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco still really compact. It does perform better, but I don’t think the performance
⏹️ ▶️ Marco difference is that big. It does have two USB-C ports instead of one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s still not a lot, but two is better than one. And there are gonna be situations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in which I’m gonna be really happy I have that second port, and that having the one would have been a pain.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do think the screen is higher quality. I have not looked up to see if anything backs this up or if this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is just placebo, but I think the screen is higher quality than 13.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco In various size classes of things we use, you can look at the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad line for instance, and the reaction for most people, myself included, is that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when we picked up that 12.9 inch iPad Pro, when you’re using it as a laptop,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s cool, but when you have to pick it up and hold in your hand as an iPad, that’s a little bit too big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most people. Similarly, when you pick up the iPad mini, that’s fine for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of people, but but for a lot of people that’s like, you know, this is a little small, I like something a little bigger. And it turns out that 9.7
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a really good size for a device that you use and hold and carry
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like an iPad. Similarly with phones, you see like a lot of people like the really big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones, but most people stick with the medium-sized ones, and the small ones are still very well liked, and so it seems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seems like around the size of the 4.7 inch iPhone is probably the ideal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco size right now for phones for most people. And I think if you can look at laptops
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you see kind of a similar thing. All these perceptions of what’s an ideal size are generally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco related to how big are average people and how do you hold things,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what do you carry, how do you carry it, how are your hands shaped and where do they go.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think in the world of laptops, we had bigger ones in the past. We had like the 17-inch,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that was a massive aircraft carrier. It was awesome when you were using that giant
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen, but it was really unwieldy to carry around and use. So that was kind of deemed by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the market and eventually by Apple, you know what, that’s too big. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 15 is now the high end, and I think in the world of laptops,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say 13-inch is really the sweet spot of like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the best size for most people. And I think sales back that up, because in the last however many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years that the MacBook Air has been a thing, I would guess the 13-inch MacBook Air was Apple’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco number one selling computer for a very long time. It might still be, because education buys a ton of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The 13-inch MacBook Air is an amazing balance of size, portability,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cost even, but you know, talking about physical stuff only for a minute, it’s a really great
⏹️ ▶️ Marco balance. And this is just the sequel to that, right? The MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco One slash adorable slash 12 inch, it is smaller and lighter,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if your number one goal is to be able to carry this with as little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco weight as possible, or, like underscore, to be able to actually wear one in your jacket,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If your number one goal is get it as small as possible, then yeah, go for that one. But if instead
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re looking for more of like a, an all-arounder, the best laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in general for most people most of the time, or the one that’s most comfortable to use most of the time,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say the 13-inch is the better balance of that. I would also say that the screen size on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 13-inch is great, and that I don’t want a smaller
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right, well I appreciate it. I still feel like I want me a MacBook Adorable,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but everything you just said makes perfect sense. It’s just, I think, because I want to basically
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have a iPad that you can actually do things on, hi, Mike, that’s why I want the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, you’re gonna hear about that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I’m gonna pay for that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco later. We are sponsored this week by Audible.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So what is the deal with whoever put in the show notes MacBook one versus MacBook adorable?
⏹️ ▶️ John I touched on it before I just wanted to bring it back around. This is these are two names for
⏹️ ▶️ John the 12 inch MacBook that Apple just calls MacBook that has one USB C
⏹️ ▶️ John port slash power plug on the side. name that it is known by. And
⏹️ ▶️ John again, the reason people make up these names is not just to be cute, but also because
⏹️ ▶️ John we need something to distinguish it because Mac book is not, you know, unique enough. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ John is Mac book adorable? That’s a name invented by another podcast where they talk about
⏹️ ▶️ John sneakers and plane crashes as far as I’m not a tech podcast.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually, by the way, I’m pretty sure that was on cortex, not hello internet. Um, so that was, oh, is that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the sneakers in plane crash podcast that was the productivity email software podcast
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s a stretch
⏹️ ▶️ John email I’ll give you email
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty sure CCP gray invented that name for for it on
⏹️ ▶️ John cortex right and MacBook one Marco invented right on the show yeah all right so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and our chat room and I both collaborated on MacBook escape
⏹️ ▶️ John yes MacBook one versus MacBook adorable we
⏹️ ▶️ John are using them both interchangeably on the show and I was thinking about it about
⏹️ ▶️ John which name if we should settle on a name or what’s gonna happen there and unfortunately I think
⏹️ ▶️ John I think slash hope that MacBook adorable is gonna have more longevity not
⏹️ ▶️ John necessarily because it’s a better name but because as soon as they add a second
⏹️ ▶️ John USB C port to the 12-inch MacBook MacBook one doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John have doesn’t doesn’t make sense anymore. In fact, it becomes undistinguishing because we would need we’re gonna have
⏹️ ▶️ John to call it MacBook two or something. And then that’s kind of confusing. But whereas adorable
⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s still very small, it is still adorable MacBook adorable lasts until they come up with a new MacBook that
⏹️ ▶️ John is entirely different form factor that is as thin as a sheet of paper. And then it probably comes up with a new name. So it
⏹️ ▶️ John seems to me that in the long run, MacBook adorable will stand triumphant over the
⏹️ ▶️ John again, the corpse of that of that laptop line when that day comes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I mean, and also, like, I’ve even stopped saying MacBook One most of the time because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, like, the reason I started saying that name in the first place was similar to my reason
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now for saying MacBook Escape for this 13-inch, because, like, Apple’s name for it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco vague and ambiguous when you would use it in conversation. And that computer has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now been out for over two years. So I feel like now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can just say MacBook, and most of the time that will now suffice. People will usually know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what we mean now. And if not, I’ve been saying 12-inch MacBook, which really clarifies it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I think the need for alternative names for that product has now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mostly or entirely passed because it’s just been long enough. The MacBook Escape,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, still needs clever names like that, but that will probably expire in like a year as
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, once they get rid of those darn pesky physical keys, and put the touch bar on everything, right? Oh, God,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hold onto this forever. No, you know, the funny thing is, I trained myself into using Caps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Lock for Escape everywhere, and I’m still doing that now. You’re allowed to, you’re still allowed to do that. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and now, you can use both now, like, you know, because when you remap Caps Lock to Escape, the Escape key still does Escape.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I’m able to use both now, but Caps Lock is so much bigger and closer to my pinky, so there it is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, really, you’re just biding time until the Touch Bar makes it to everything. You’re basically pulling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like when the Touch Bar makes it to everything, if that’s gonna be a thing, which it probably will eventually,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I’m not gonna like throw a huge fit over it. The main reason I like this computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that it has the MacBook Air CPU class and a massive battery in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really, really good size and weight package. The 13-inch with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Touch Bar is only different in a few of those factors. It still is the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco size and weight. I would probably be very happy with that one as well, but it has worse
⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life, and the Touch Bar has these downsides for me that I don’t love.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So for me, that’s kind of a minor feature difference. If there comes a time when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can only get the model I want with a Touch Bar, I’ll do it. It’ll be, you know, I won’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco love it, but it’ll be fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, since we’ve recorded, I believe, yeah, because it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was Monday, Apple has opened WWDC lottery.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the way it works is, as of two or three years ago now, you put your name in a hat,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and if you are lucky enough to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco win the lottery- A really big hat.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey A really big hat. If you’re lucky enough to win the lottery, you have won the opportunity, and you will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey take that opportunity. That’s the way it works, but you have won the opportunity to give Apple $1,600 of your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey money and you will get a ticket to WWDC in return. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the lottery started this past Monday and it runs, I believe, until
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Friday afternoon, evening, something like that. And then presumably shortly thereafter, they will start telling people
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whether or not they have made it in. First question before we go any
⏹️ ▶️ Casey further is the obvious question, who put their name in the hat? that I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did. I have listened to Under the Radar, so I know your answer, Marco, but why don’t you share with the group, please?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sure. I mean, Under the Radar this week, I go into detail, but the summary of it is that this is the first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco year since 2009 that I am not seeking a ticket. And that’s not because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s bad or anything. It’s simply because I have found in the last
⏹️ ▶️ Marco couple years that my utility of the conference is going down, because I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just been to so many, it gets a little repetitive after a while. If you’re a first-timer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or if you’ve only been a couple of times and you’re still getting a lot out of each time, by all means, go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for it. But for me, I’ve just found that I have gone so much and it really is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco geared significantly towards newcomers because usually about half or more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of their attendees are first-timers. So if you go every single year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it starts getting a little bit less necessary for you. So this year I’ve decided to focus instead
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the surrounding events. I’m going to the Layers conference, which I highly recommend, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll be around stuff like that. But I decided this year to forego the official conference,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I will be out there and I hope to see all of you there as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John John. I put my name in the ring again. I really like WWDC. Still,
⏹️ ▶️ John I would also like to go to Layers. I’m not sure if I could swing both of them. Obviously
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t be physically in two places at once, but it’s also an added expense to pay for both of them. Let me tell
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you, as somebody who did that, you can’t. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t. I mean, the advantage is that Layers was only, I think, the first three days or two days, and so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could at least go to WBDC for the last two or three days. But I did that two years ago,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it was a huge waste. It was a huge waste of both passes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really. I felt bad that I had to miss half of Layers and a good chunk of WBDC,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unless you could try to go to things from both. So I would not recommend doing WBDC
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with another conference. But if you don’t get a ticket to that, or if you rather would not go to that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do recommend Layers as an alternative conference.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so if I don’t get a ticket to WBDC, I will probably try to get a ticket to Layers just so I
⏹️ ▶️ John have some reason to actually travel out there and don’t get yelled at by you two for not coming. Wait,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so you’re gonna come? Oh, I am so happy right now, John. This is the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco best. Oh, I never thought you’d come. This is
⏹️ ▶️ John Neither, yeah, me neither. If I know- I would come if I got layers. If I didn’t get tickets to anything, then we’re back to, hmm,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That needs to be somebody’s like text or ringtone. But anyway, no, that’s fantastic news.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I assumed that if you did not get a WWDC ticket, that that was that, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey story’s over, then we will not be seeing you this year. But that’s fantastic.
⏹️ ▶️ John If I just come for layers, I would probably also not be there for the same amount of time, because later it’s only three
⏹️ ▶️ John days, so I would basically come back earlier and that would hopefully reduce the expenses of everything
⏹️ ▶️ John all around, you know, so.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you weren’t there, you wouldn’t get a chance to see this year’s version of my podcast recording setup. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey changes every year. Dramatically so.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh man, that’s funny. We’re gonna have laugh mics this year, is that what’s happening?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was actually thinking about headsets. I’m looking, I’m doing some research to see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like, are there any headsets that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sound decent? Because that would allow me to pack a lot less stuff overall. Yeah. Oh my word.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Turns out microphone stands are massive in your suitcase. I had to pay the overweight limit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my checked bag last year. It was full of like microphone stands and stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So yeah, trying to reduce that a little bit this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I did put my name in the hat and I cannot agree more that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Layers is unbelievably good. We know at least
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the the women that run it, Jessie Char works with us and she is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fantastic and amazing and the conference unsurprisingly is fantastic and amazing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, if you’ve ever been to another tech conference before, you will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco conference designed and run by people who have been to a lot of other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tech conferences and have put a ton of thought and consideration and effort
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into fixing and addressing the things that everyone actually wants and needs when they go to a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tech conference. And so you go there and there’s like you know it’s it’s a really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice schedule it’s not like too packed the talks aren’t too long there’s lots of socialization
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time between things there’s amazing snacks and coffee right there in the room. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hot chocolate. Yeah, and there’s like Advil in case you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco drank too much the night before or whatever. It’s the best. It’s like, they really, they think of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything that you want out of a tech conference, even if you don’t realize that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they did think about it, they did realize it, and they planned for it. It’s just awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, I wrote a review of Layers shortly after I left last year,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’ll put the link in in the show notes, but it begins as follows. Layers is the fantasy conference we all wish existed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but are too scared or preoccupied or wimpy to put together. And I stand by that a year later.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Layers is really fantastic. It is not an also-ran WWDC. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey equally as good. So definitely check that out if you can. I highly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey recommend it. And Jesse is really awesome. So that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a genuine and honest quasi-advertisement advertisement from all of us because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we really like it that much.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, there are some interesting changes to WWDC this year, other than the obvious
⏹️ ▶️ Casey relocation to San Jose, which I keep calling San Diego in conversation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because my youngest brother lives in San Diego and I keep getting confused. It’s the same, right? Yeah, it’s totally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like next to each other.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do that later, just like John said the other day, just fill in what I meant. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, like last year, Apple is to some degree,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know if I should go so far as to say embracing, but perhaps acknowledging that there are other things that are happening at the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey same time. So on the WWDC site, there’s a page called Beyond
⏹️ ▶️ Casey WWDC, and the header there reads, in addition to Apple’s Worldwide Developers
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Conference, a variety of other exciting developer events will take place throughout the week in San Jose. they mentioned
⏹️ ▶️ Casey among other things, layers, Alt Conf, which I’ve never actually gone to, but I’ve heard very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey good things about. This year Coco Conf, which I’ve gone to a couple of them, they’re doing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what they’re calling Coco Conf Next Door, which is I guess either literally or figuratively
⏹️ ▶️ Casey next door to WWDC. Oh, it looks like it is literally next door to WWDC.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s Beard Bash talk show with John Gruber and James Stamsey and the Breakpoints, which gets a special call out because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s a benefit concert for App Camp for Girls, which is a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey organization that is near and dear to our hearts. So you should definitely check that out if you happen to be in town.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think that’s really cool that Apple is really starting to, again, if not embrace, at least acknowledge
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there are other things going on at the same time. I know it happened last year, but I’m happy to see it back this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Finally, there has been a couple of really fascinating
⏹️ ▶️ Casey brand new changes to the WWDC site, which I am genuinely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really excited about. The first is something that we all got really, really crotchety
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about last year, and I think deservedly so. There’s a code of conduct. It is quite short,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but as someone who is not a good reader of these
⏹️ ▶️ Casey things, it seems to Cover most bases I say with little conviction, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it it looked fine to me I don’t know. Did you guys have any thoughts on the code of conduct?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s typical Apple writing like get right to the point cover all the bases Don’t like because
⏹️ ▶️ John the longer you make it in the more complicated it is the more it seems like it’s some kind of weird legalese Apple trying
⏹️ ▶️ John to cover its butt versus what it’s supposed to be which is a thing that expresses the
⏹️ ▶️ John expectations of guests You know if you come to this here’s how you’re expected to behave. If
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re here and people don’t comply with this, then you know and everybody knows it’s explicitly against
⏹️ ▶️ John the rules and here’s what you do about it. And so that’s what people were asking for. And
⏹️ ▶️ John the resistance to code of conducts was always essentially organizations
⏹️ ▶️ John as personified by whoever you want to put as the head of the organization getting defensive. What are you trying
⏹️ ▶️ John to say? Everybody’s nice at our things. right? Why do we have to have a code of conduct? They don’t do anything
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, bad people are just going to do bad things. Why have laws, people will just break them. And you know, just
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey goes around the house like, oh, geez, just
⏹️ ▶️ John look, if everyone agrees that there’s an expectation of behavior, just write it down. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John write down what to do if something happens that against the thing that you all think we agree
⏹️ ▶️ John on, right? And then actually follow through with it. And if something does happen, and someone does report it, then you
⏹️ ▶️ John will actually then you will actually go and remedy the situation rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet. That that part can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John be in the code of conduct, but it is the presumption, assuming that we think
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is, you know, really behind us. And I think they are behind it, and I think last year they were just caught unaware
⏹️ ▶️ John by this and probably like lawyers had to get involved and so on and so forth. They just had to get on the same page with everybody else. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John this is a thing that you should have. It is the baseline for any kind of conference. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now Apple’s on the same page with the rest of the civilized world saying, you know, here’s
⏹️ ▶️ John our code of conduct. It is straightforward. It’s the thing that we all think we all agree, that we all believe in.
⏹️ ▶️ John But now we’ve written it down.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, so I’m really happy to see that there, because there would have been hell to pay, and deservedly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so, had they ignored it for this year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s kind of amazing they didn’t already have one in previous years, honestly. But it is good to see it now.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think it’s because just the kind of agreement of, look, everything’s fine. We’re all friends
⏹️ ▶️ John here. Everyone’s cool. There was already a code of conduct not written down, implicit because
⏹️ ▶️ John if you came to WWDC and start acting like a hooligan in a way that was
⏹️ ▶️ John visible to everybody, you would get kicked out and Apple would point to some legalese says, Look, we reserve
⏹️ ▶️ John the right to kick you out whenever the hell we want. And here’s where you’re being disruptive. But in all the other cases
⏹️ ▶️ John of people doing things that are not externally visible people having a bad time because of someone else’s behavior
⏹️ ▶️ John and then going to complain about and be like, Well, I didn’t see it. So there’s nothing I can do. And they didn’t cause a disruption. So we can’t kick them out.
⏹️ ▶️ John And just like, that’s the point where you need to say, look, these things are going to happen. We
⏹️ ▶️ John have to have a policy about it, founded in something, not just let it be, not just let
⏹️ ▶️ John it fall to whoever happens to be there to take the complaint at the time, have something in writing on the front page of the
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that says this is how it’s supposed to work. So if something does go down, you can say, look, this is in violation of, you know, you
⏹️ ▶️ John that everyone understands and everyone agrees, both the people who could potentially perpetrate these kind of things and
⏹️ ▶️ John the people who are victims of them feel like that Apple is behind they’re,
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re, they’re writing down what they say is supposed to be rather than just saying, I bet we’re all nice and everything
⏹️ ▶️ John will be fine. And we’ll just get along. Right? That’s that’s not a, that’s not a workable system in this day and age.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Certainly not. And not to turn this into the layers love lounge, but the layers code of conduct
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has emoji everywhere, which means which immediately means I’m paying very close attention to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. So here again, layers knows what’s up. The other thing that that is really exciting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about the WWDC changes for this year is they’re offering child care. The entire passage
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reads as follows, group child care will be available free of charge for children eight years old or younger and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will be provided by corporate kids. Make sure to include your need for child care during ticket
⏹️ ▶️ Casey registration as space is limited. That is super awesome. It’s super
⏹️ ▶️ Casey awesome even for somebody like me. I don’t think I’m going to take them up on this and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey certainly I didn’t enroll in it when I put my name in the ring, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if hypothetically we wanted to, the three of us, Aaron and Declan and myself go
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out to San Francisco for the week and Aaron wanted to have five minutes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to herself at any point, I could bring Declan to WWDC and have him play with all the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey other kids and Aaron could go sightsee and I could learn and everyone is happy. And so even for somebody like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey us, this is awesome. Imagine how freaking amazing this is for somebody who is say a single parent
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or perhaps just a caregiver for whatever reason, like there’s a million and seven different ways why this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey amazing. And I was not expecting this. I was expecting a code of conduct. I was not expecting this and this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is awesome. So I applaud Apple for both of these moves. I think they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey perhaps overdue, but still I’m really, really stoked about both of them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, agreed. Yeah, we don’t pay a lot of money for these tickets, like they, you know, $1,600 per person, you can do the math.
⏹️ ▶️ John And Apple has to decide how to allocate that money. Obviously they pay for the space and they pay for
⏹️ ▶️ John safety and security, and they pay to set up all the stuff in there. And honestly, I don’t know if WWDC is a profit center
⏹️ ▶️ John or not. I imagine it would have to at least break even or something, but who knows. But either way, they have to decide how to allocate
⏹️ ▶️ John their money. And in the grand scheme of things, like when you’re trying to decide what will make our
⏹️ ▶️ John conference better, so you can have layers like a conference made by people who have been to a bunch of other conferences
⏹️ ▶️ John and have found these are the things that annoy me and these are the things that I wish existed. This is one of those things that
⏹️ ▶️ John can fundamentally change the experience of the conference or just make it feasible
⏹️ ▶️ John for a whole set of people. And if you have to trade that versus some of Casey’s beloved Odwalla,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey a reasonable trade because there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John lots of other places where you could spend this money, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Let’s not get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey too aggressive, John. Let’s not take my Odwalla.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just bring back Strawberry Sea Monster. That’s all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ask. A lot of people,
⏹️ ▶️ John like you’re allergic to bananas, right? A
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco lot of people are
⏹️ ▶️ John allergic to the strawberries.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah. So have some variety. I don’t have every flavor have banana in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it There is they make one that doesn’t it’s very popular and they used to have it until like two years ago
⏹️ ▶️ John is real that type of thing is actually surprisingly expensive and especially since like space is limited We’re just
⏹️ ▶️ John offering this as a service as an amenity as a thing that comes as part of your sixteen hundred dollars I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John sure the people who are taking advantage of it would gladly trade for a bunch of extra
⏹️ ▶️ John Danish’s that just go stale because nobody eats them or whatever, you know Like the costs of a thing like
⏹️ ▶️ John this are surprisingly high, even for something as like, you know, those silly stale danishes you eat. If you knew exactly how
⏹️ ▶️ John much each one of those costs in the grand scheme of things, once you add it all up.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the secret to the stale danishes is that every year there is one type of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco danish that they serve in the breakfast platter that actually is really good. So it’s kind of a sport to find
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out like, you know, to find out the one good one every year. Like see how, can you find it out by Tuesday morning? Then you can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have great breakfast the rest of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the week. They’re all pretty good. And the ones
⏹️ ▶️ John with the fruit jam in the middle, I’d say they’re pretty good. Blueberries, like
⏹️ ▶️ John pineapple, apple, all those are good. I give those all a thumbs up. You can basically live on
⏹️ ▶️ John those if you try real
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hard. See, now I’m regretting not getting a ticket this year because I’m gonna miss all the stale danishes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And because they’re gonna be new stale danishes because it’s gonna be a different venue.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll give you a play-by-play of the terrible box lunches. That’s one place where they don’t put the money. No, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann $1,600 is
⏹️ ▶️ John not going which I’m all for because there are plenty of other good places where you can get food
⏹️ ▶️ John for a reasonable price around there but there are not places where you can drop off your child
⏹️ ▶️ John and You know have them be close to you for a reasonable out of money during W2bc So this is this is a wise allocation of resources
⏹️ ▶️ John is exactly the type of thing that can make the conference Again, not just like a more pleasant
⏹️ ▶️ John experience some people but just like just plain possible for people who previously Couldn’t even entertain the idea
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, this is super great. And I said it before, but I’ll say it one more time. I’m super
⏹️ ▶️ Casey excited that these are the moves that Apple’s making. In a year where I think the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey three of us have had a couple of complaints, this is 100%. This is 100%. I can’t say two thumbs up because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m only one person. We got scolded about that once, but I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will give a single thumb up because that’s all I’m permitted to do.
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t allow that scolding you have two thumbs who’s got two thumbs this guy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so anyway yeah I’m really stoked about this and I and I am
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am hopefully gonna see John there and then I’ll be jealous of what Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey says it layers or maybe I’ll be with Marco layers who even knows but we’ll figure it out one way or the other but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am I am already trying not to get my hopes up for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey big John Syracuse a hug that I always forget how tall you are and that I have to reach up and get on my tippy toes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to give you a proper hug and I’m already looking forward to that awkward moment. Get ready John, I’m coming
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love you so much John Syracuse. Oh my god that’s amazing. Thanks to our
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey this week, Betterment, Audible,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Backblaze and we We will see you next week.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cause it was accidental,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Cause it was accidental, oh
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And you can find the show notes at atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to
⏹️ ▶️ John accidental accidental Tech Podcasts So long
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I’m trying, somebody asked for a picture of the box lunches in the chat, and I am the kind of moron
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that certainly… Pictures don’t do them
⏹️ ▶️ Casey justice. Well, they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not terribly tasty, but I think you’re overblowing how sh** they are.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to put this in the notes. It’s for next week. I need to go into detail about
⏹️ ▶️ John what really goes wrong with these lunches. Not today, but I’ll…
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, do you want to just do that now?
⏹️ ▶️ John No, because we’re going to talk about Zelda, so I’m not cutting into my Zelda time.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Hey! Hey! Speaking of the devil,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann hello! Don’t want to cut into your Zelda time, John.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, he wanted me to expound on WWDC lunches, but I’m saving it for next week.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Oh, that’s good. Yeah, Zelda time’s better.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Casey Yeah, that’s probably true.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do have tons of pictures of food from the beer bash, coincidentally, but I have yet to find one of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the boxed lunches. This is going to bother me. And anyway, hi, Tiff. How are you? Hi, how are you guys?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m doing well. Oh, I see a picture of Vaudevala. All right, I’ll keep myself under control.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tell me about Zelda and how much I should regret not having picked
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Alright, so far Zelda is excellent, as John said. It is…
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I don’t know if you would like it, Casey, because I’m not quite sure you like huge
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann epic sandbox games where you pick through things and find stuff and walk
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann around and gather and fight here and there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So quick background, I did play through the entirety of Ocarina of Time, which is not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly the same, but I loved that game.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Jonathan Mann And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I played about five to ten minutes of Breath of the Wild on my sister-in-law’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Switch and then I played another five or ten minutes on my friend’s Switch,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my friend’s and neighbor’s Switch. So I’ve got probably a sum total of 15 minutes of playtime on this game.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And from what I experienced in the brief window of time, I did like it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The reason I haven’t bought myself a Switch other than being cheap is because I fear that I would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey either play through Zelda and then decide, okay, well, that’s enough, or I will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey play through some of Zelda and then just give up on it, to Tiff’s point. So I’m not really sure how
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would feel about this, but in the brief window of time I played it, I really liked it.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Have you ever played Fable?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, never even heard of it. He’s never heard
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann of Fable. Anyway, it’s a lot like Fable, right, John? Don’t you think? Don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann you feel the Fable-y vibe going on? I feel so much Fable.
⏹️ ▶️ John I never played Fable, but I’m aware of the game. What? And I know what it’s like. There’s an
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Xbox game. Get off my podcast, John.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s on a Microsoft console, so John would not have any of that. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann But it’s Fable.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean… But I know about Fable. But yeah, like it is, for Casey’s
⏹️ ▶️ John taste, like Ocarina of Time is definitely much more linear and it follows a formula and it’s a good
⏹️ ▶️ John formula but uh Breath of the Wild is not that. Breath of the Wild definitely brings in the big sandboxing. People
⏹️ ▶️ John know the terminology when you say a sandbox game it’s the idea that instead of having like… it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John hard to talk about without making references to other games like Uncharted or whatever but instead of having an expected
⏹️ ▶️ John series of steps like you’re gonna do this then you’re gonna do that then you’re gonna do that and this is how you’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John play through the game to the ending of the game maybe multiple endings or whatever Instead, it provides you like a sandbox
⏹️ ▶️ John like on a playground where it’s just this big square and it’s got sand and toys and trucks in it and you can
⏹️ ▶️ John do, you know, and there is like a story to be had and solved, but a lot of the game is just
⏹️ ▶️ John playing in the sandbox. I’m going to make a little castle over here. I’m going to drive my truck over there. And it is what you make of it.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that type of game can be like, uh, you know, I don’t get it. What’s the point? What am I even supposed to do? This is boring.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you’re not into sandbox type games, or if you just try to play it linearly, like I’m confused about where to go
⏹️ ▶️ John and this game doesn’t seem to have much stuff in it I played through the story too quickly but if you like sandbox games and you like
⏹️ ▶️ John collecting things and you like picking up new items and Finding new places to go and doing stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John This Zelda is amazing because it has a lot of the same traditional Zelda elements of the overarching story and all the things
⏹️ ▶️ John you can Do but unlike so many past games It’s not like go here do this dungeon get the boomerang which
⏹️ ▶️ John you will need to finish this dungeon the next dungeon you get This item and do that like that. It doesn’t do that at all You can go wherever the hell
⏹️ ▶️ John you want including Running to the final battle as soon as you get out of the first little tutorial area
⏹️ ▶️ John and getting your butt kicked because you can’t Beat it at that point to just like spending
⏹️ ▶️ John the entire game like I wonder how many people will play Breath of the Wild and literally never finish the main
⏹️ ▶️ John story because just playing the rest of the game is more fun just slowly methodically
⏹️ ▶️ John Exploring the sandbox exploring the map collecting things getting new outfits
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s catching new horses just that can entertain you for such an incredible period of time. And so I love both
⏹️ ▶️ John those type of things. And this is a great hybrid game for me. I’m really enjoying it both aspects of the story
⏹️ ▶️ John part and the sandbox part.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann So you should totally play fable because the the dynamics and everything in
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann in this game in the new Zelda is exactly like fable. It’s like you’re not
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann constantly searching out like in old Zelda’s. I skipped a couple so correct me if it
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann changed but you kind of you find one weapon and then you slowly upgrade it throughout the
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann course of the game like oh then you find the next weapon and there’s like six weapons right like or
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann six main swords that you’re you’re searching for and here it’s more of like you get a
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann sword and you use it for a while and then it breaks and then you find another sword you use it for a while and then it breaks
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and so there’s no like oh now I have to search for the master sword
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and get all these things in order to you get the Master Sword. It doesn’t seem like that kind of thing. It’s so
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann much, it’s so like Fable. There’s little people walking around that you can trade with.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John And get
⏹️ ▶️ John a pet dog if you want, wolf, but same thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Yeah, well that’s in Fable too. Like everything is. I know,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John that’s what I’m saying, I
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann know. It’s so Fable-y. It’s crazy Fable-y. Wait, you can get dogs in Zelda?
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I accidentally ran over a fox just recently. Aw. And it was so sad,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John it turned into. And you can eat
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann him, he turns into food. It turned into meat, but I ran over it with my horse, so it was an accident.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John Yeah, how
⏹️ ▶️ John far, I don’t want to spoil things, but how far are you in the game?
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I’m talking to the old wise lady and running
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann some errands for her.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann you,
⏹️ ▶️ John any major story elements that you have progressed that you think would be markers towards completion? I don’t want
⏹️ ▶️ John to, again, I don’t want to spoil.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I’m up to like the silly camera dynamic.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right, and how much of the map have you unlocked percentage-wise?
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I haven’t unlocked much. It’s not showing me a lot, but I’ve been wandering all over the place.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John How many towers, basically?
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Oh, I don’t know, maybe like 11 or 12. 11 towers? I
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, they’re really tall things that when you
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann unlock them, they reveal a new portion of the map. None of those yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I’ve only been
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John playing
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann for like two days.
⏹️ ▶️ John Zero? I mean, obviously you’ve done the first one, right? You got off the Great Plateau.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. And then after that, you get off the Great Plateau and you go to that tower and it reveals the first section of the map. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John one tower right there. The very, very tall ones that you have to climb up, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann Oh, yeah. I
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann haven’t done those yet. I didn’t even try climbing them. The one that’s lit, the ones that are lit up.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. All right. I already spoiled something for you. All right. You are, you are very, you are not
⏹️ ▶️ John far into this game at all. And I think you’re the type of person who may get lost in just like, you know, finding
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann been doing the little temples and finding chickens like I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann busy finding horses I want to make sure I got a teal one with dots on its butt.
⏹️ ▶️ John I was very specific.
⏹️ ▶️ John horses I find a little frustrating and speaking of the wolf pets that’s the one thing that annoys me about this.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann How do I get a
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann wolf pet? I’m very excited about this part because I just keep running over
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Marco foxes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Step one don’t run them over.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Well I’m sorry it was an accident I felt really bad because the foxes are super
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John cute.
⏹️ ▶️ John As long as you eat them you use every part of the foxes
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann I did I did ding
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John so one monetary thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that the Nintendo has been using recently that’s very frustrating is they want you to buy their little amiibo
⏹️ ▶️ John plastic toys um and then the little plastic toys because they have a little
⏹️ ▶️ John nfc thing on them that you hold up to the controller or
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John yes I know unlock stuff in the game which annoys me because it’s an additional thing you have to buy
⏹️ ▶️ John but as someone who’s willing to spend lots of money on games whatever what really annoys me
⏹️ ▶️ John is you can’t buy them because nobody has them unless you want to go on eBay. It’s like Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ John make more of this plastic crap so I can buy it. I’m ready to give you an unseemly amount of money
⏹️ ▶️ John for amiibo plastic toys just so I can take the little NFC thing and bop it on my controller and get
⏹️ ▶️ John the in-game items that they give because they give some good items in this game. Now I have the amiibo from like the special edition
⏹️ ▶️ John Wind Waker HD version gave you the Wolf Link amiibo and if And if you use the Wolf Link amiibo,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get the wolf companion
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann in this game. He just appears.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Oh, yeah, I’m gonna need Marco. I’m gonna need that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So Marco, if you find that amiibo connection, let me know too, because I’ve been trying to buy these. You should just go online. You can see this
⏹️ ▶️ John amiibo gives you this. This amiibo gives you that. So just get the amiibos that give you the things that you want.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Adam’s gonna be so into that. Adam’s gonna be crazy. He was really he wants to play. He wants to play a
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann lot like he wants to walk around Link and he was telling Marco how to play
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann It was kind of incredible.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco He was he was he he wanted to teach me how to play the game and so I walk over and he’s like alright That stick
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you move that that one you move and this one you look Like he already figured out like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the dual analog stick movement and looking thing that is you know? Standard at all first-person
⏹️ ▶️ Marco games most adults can’t figure that out for a while And he’s four and he was explaining it to me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as if I didn’t know it’s pretty great
⏹️ ▶️ John The thing about the wolf link amiibo thing is that depending on how well you do
⏹️ ▶️ John Did in a portion of the Wind Waker HD game it that influences what kind of health
⏹️ ▶️ John your wolf has when you? Instantiate him in breath of the wild which is kind of fun and a nice connection
⏹️ ▶️ John between those two games you get a default Amount if you haven’t played the previous one, but yeah, the amiibo angle is a little bit annoying You don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John need them to finish the game or anything But I want some of the items they give not the wolf But I want some other things and I I
⏹️ ▶️ John can’t find the amiibos in stores or online anywhere except for for ridiculous prices on eBay So
⏹️ ▶️ John that is frustrating, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hold on so you’re what you just said Is that the the state of a?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like an NPC in the prior Zelda is carried over into this Zelda
⏹️ ▶️ John So one of your achievements is a particular dungeon that you do and when you complete a certain section of the dungeon how
⏹️ ▶️ John many? Hearts you have left translates to how many hearts the wolf link has when you instantiate him in the new game
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann just like a little
⏹️ ▶️ John NFC tap pad thingy. It’s not it’s not super high-tech
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like if we’ve never heard of these things and never done anything do we get like like a slow emotionally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco damaged wolf or like did we get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like a good one?
⏹️ ▶️ John Everything’s the same about him He’ll probably just have a little bit less health than mine or maybe a lot less But either way like
⏹️ ▶️ John if he dies you can I think he has a cool down and you can just reinstantiate him He’s honestly not that particularly
⏹️ ▶️ John useful because like any sort of NPC fighting aid type of thing It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it helps a little bit But then you a lot of time you just spend worrying about him same thing with the horses by the way of horses I’m worried.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to spoil things for you. But anyway, I I was worried. I had some problems with my horse
⏹️ ▶️ John companions as well. So I’m mostly a loner out there.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann What was your problem? I don’t want to spoil anything for you. Just play the game. Oh, also, I’ve been
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John feeling super
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann bad about… Poor horses. I’ve been feeling super bad
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann about breaking things in the village, even though I know it’s part of the game to like
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John find stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, you got it. It’s tradition. You got to break those pots. You see pots. They need to be broken.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann No, but I feel really bad because now it feels like so personal because they’re like they’re like people
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and they’re walking around And they like kind of talk to you more
⏹️ ▶️ John one of them might have money in it. I mean it could happen No,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I just I feel I feel really guilty now about like taking fruit out of shrines, and I just
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I can’t I’m feeling really guilty about this game like are you really saving this kingdom?
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I don’t know But I’m feeling like it’s a mix between like fable and I’m worried about going to the bad side and like
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I’m just I have
⏹️ ▶️ John these I’m panicked. But it’s revenge of the old mechanics because like
⏹️ ▶️ John in past Zeldas I was the scourge of grass everywhere as every
⏹️ ▶️ John player who’s played
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann it. Oh as everyone has ever
⏹️ ▶️ John been. You see grass it must be cut. You know why? Because sometimes when you cut grass
⏹️ ▶️ John money pops out or hearts but mostly money and so then you’re like grass must cut
⏹️ ▶️ John it and what does this game do? It gives you gigantic fields of grass and weapons that wear down when you cut
⏹️ ▶️ John with them and you’re like, must
⏹️ ▶️ John grass, but must not cut grass. And there’s some pottery, must break pots, but
⏹️ ▶️ John no, don’t break pots because it will wear, what if I pick up the pottery and throw it, but then the people will be angry at me. And the
⏹️ ▶️ John game has lots of in-game text that teases you about previous Zelda games mechanics when
⏹️ ▶️ John you do one of the things from, it’s a lot of fun.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann At least they kept those cute little leaf dudes. I’m super happy about that.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John It’s adorable. The Koroks, yeah. Yeah. They’re cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann that I see a lot of the older game creatures kind of in this
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann world also. And like the ones from Wind Waker, right? You know,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann they’re all over the place. The same kind of demon D things and yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John Wind Wake Wind
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Waker is Wind Wake. I don’t know what’s it
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John called. When a
⏹️ ▶️ John waker is the boat one.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann Yeah, yeah, you’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John got you got the octo rocks, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann all the way back to the first game.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Yep, you have those. Yeah, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann much.
⏹️ ▶️ John So good. The main thing that I’m enjoying about this game, and it’s not just the sandboxing,
⏹️ ▶️ John lots of games are sandboxy, but this is not, I mean, because, you know, Grand Theft Auto or whatever is a sandbox game, right? But this
⏹️ ▶️ John is like the title is appropriate, Breath of the Wild. The main sort of theme of this
⏹️ ▶️ John game, and it’s embodied in both the mechanics and in, you know, the sandbox nature
⏹️ ▶️ John of it is that you are out in the wild. And so it’s not entirely man versus
⏹️ ▶️ John nature, but there’s a lot of that from the very beginning of the game, just getting hot and getting cold. But in general, just like
⏹️ ▶️ John wanting to see what’s over the next rise and wanting to see, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John the sense of exploration, like what’s going to be over there or what could that be or whatever. And as a couple of people pointed out in
⏹️ ▶️ John discussions on Twitter, so many sandbox games, like even things
⏹️ ▶️ John like very popular games like Oblivion or the Elder Scrolls series and stuff like that, there were sandbox
⏹️ ▶️ John games with huge worlds, very detailed, all sorts of stuff. You’d see something. I wonder
⏹️ ▶️ John what’s over that peak. looks like a little interesting valley over there and you’d spend your time making this long
⏹️ ▶️ John trek to this distant peak which is cool you can do in a sandbox game if you can see it you can go there and you would just go and
⏹️ ▶️ John work your way there and there’s random encounters with enemies and you go through some villages and you take a break and get some food or whatever you finally
⏹️ ▶️ John make it is what you think this is really cool little nook or waterfall and there is nothing there like it is just
⏹️ ▶️ John some more textures and scenery and the thing that Breath of the Wild does so well is that
⏹️ ▶️ John even though it is a huge world is obviously a huge world that humans have carefully constructed so
⏹️ ▶️ John that if something looks tempting or interesting when you get there they will be something there
⏹️ ▶️ John not the world’s greatest thing but some reason for you to have arrived there some reward for getting there and that the most
⏹️ ▶️ John interesting things are in areas that look interesting that will lure you toward them and it makes you feel like I’m a genius
⏹️ ▶️ John for finding this thing here it’s like no you’re not they made it look cool and inviting they made say I wonder what that is
⏹️ ▶️ John often this is that looks kind of interesting or there’s like a little twinkle or or that looks like it would be a neat little cove or have a nice
⏹️ ▶️ John little tree or just looks like, I mean, maybe we’re sensing that like there are certain sections of it that are more massaged
⏹️ ▶️ John by human hands than others, but the idea of like, it just continues. Come on.
⏹️ ▶️ John It just continues to amaze me that like, even just when areas are mapped out, you look on the map and they
⏹️ ▶️ John give areas names, like little regions names, and you’re like, that’s an interesting name, or they put a little thing on the map, like a
⏹️ ▶️ John little drawing on the map, like that looks cool. And you go there and like, recently I had a big ordeal getting to a particular section
⏹️ ▶️ John of the map and I’m playing with my son and he’s like, dad you know it was very difficult to get there and
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re using a lot of our food and it was like just why are we even going here just turn back we’re using
⏹️ ▶️ John up all of our food and this is a waste of time and we’ve been trying to do this like a harrowing journey through you know
⏹️ ▶️ John elemental dangers and random enemies and you know my son is getting bored or whatever but I’m like no
⏹️ ▶️ John I really want to get to that part cuz just because it looked interesting on the map like I didn’t actually see it with my own eyeballs
⏹️ ▶️ John and when we got there it was totally worth it and he had to admit like that was a good idea and why did put this
⏹️ ▶️ John out here in the corner of the map but it’s super duper hard to get to because they knew people would just try to get there to see
⏹️ ▶️ John what that thing is and when they get there they are rewarded and that’s that is the number one thing that I love about this game
⏹️ ▶️ John the sense of exploration and adventure and the fact that every time I go exploring or on some uh you know
⏹️ ▶️ John damn fool crusade as they would say in a movie that Marco and Casey will not remember um nope
⏹️ ▶️ John I am rewarded for that at the end so I I envy your your largely unlocked map
⏹️ ▶️ John all the places you will go which there you go you remember that one all the places you will go in
⏹️ ▶️ John Zelda still so much to see so much to do so much fun
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann well that’s good to know that it’s worth it because I’ve climbed some mountains and it was pretty good up
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann there you know like I blew up some rocks and stuff but I’ve definitely was able to climb a lot more mountains
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann than I have been in other sandbox games you know usually it’s like oh yeah you can climb this mountain but you really can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann sorry that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John just a big
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann yeah So I’m pretty excited that you can go
⏹️ ▶️ John climb every mountain for it every stream.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann That’s right.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann okay, everyone. Okay, Maria
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John Okay river
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann No, your name’s maria.
⏹️ ▶️ John Come on. Someone’s got to be able to sing this. Nope you no
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann until
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann you find your dream Thank you. You’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey welcome I don’t even know what song you’re thinking of.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Jonathan Mann Oh my gosh. Yeah, you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m sure I do know it But darned if I could place it based just on the lyrics
⏹️ ▶️ John I always had to remember that tiff married into this family and it’s not she is not genetically doomed to not know anything
⏹️ ▶️ John about pop culture like Marco is talk to her on the level of the rest normal people get my references.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann That’s why we are team strong island John.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Jonathan Mann All
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. So is there anything else on Zelda like I’m not trying to shut you guys up I just I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have nothing I can contribute to this conversation anymore so
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it is quite a big epic game as as John was just describing. And I feel like if
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann you aren’t ready to get into that, or that doesn’t appeal to you, then buying a system just
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann for this game probably wouldn’t be a great idea.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, no, no, no. I think if I were to buy a Switch, I would probably get Zelda because I expect I would like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. But really, the system would just be a glorified Mario Kart delivery system,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is probably preposterous since my understanding is the whatever version of Mario
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Kart that ends up on the Switch is not going to be too terribly different than what’s on the Wii U.
⏹️ ▶️ John But you never played the Wii U
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, so it’s all new to you. Exactly. Also, you know, I think some of this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey comes from me just getting bowled over by seeing in the Switch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey trailer, or whatever you want to call it, that came out in October, when they showed, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it was a basketball game that they were showing, but they showed a couple of people playing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the same game on one Switch, which I thought was really clever, But even more clever was when they had like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a series of switches or switch I or whatever around like in a circle and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the implication was that they were all linked together somehow and they’re all playing the same game
⏹️ ▶️ Casey across like six different switches, which I just thought looked amazing. And so I’m having this vision of like me
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and my sister-in-law getting our, you know, getting the family together and being able to like play
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mario Kart across two different switches against each other with each other or what have you. and gosh only knows if that’ll even
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be supported. But that’s the dream, man, and it just looks awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think your hesitation on the Switch makes sense if the idea
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of getting into this giant fantasy world game is not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco massively pushing you to buy it. Because like, you know, I bought it because I had a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good opportunity to, and there were a couple games on the roadmap that I’m excited about,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann like Mario Kart.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And you also buy everything.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I bought it because there was other stuff like Mario Kart on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco road map that I want. And I bought Zelda thinking that, you know, everyone says this is an amazing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco game, so maybe I should try it, even though I traditionally do not like games like this.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I mean, and your son was Zelda for Halloween. I mean, not Zelda, sorry. Oh my gosh, I did it! Ah, he was Link for Halloween.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re fine, you’re fine. You made the outfit, you’re allowed one slip.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Oh, and Splatoon. Splatoon is supposed to be really good. I’ve never ever played that ever ever ever so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would I would probably pick that up in my hypothetical world where I have a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco switch right and so basically If you are like me and if Zelda is not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the massive thing that you absolutely must do because you love games like this Then this is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not the right time to buy a switch because there’s very little else out right now. I played that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like fast RMX or something like that. It’s like it’s the wipeout clone. It’s cool. It’s it’s a decent game
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not amazing. It isn’t that different from like the the AG Drive series on iOS.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like it’s not it’s pretty much the same thing but more expensive. So you buy a Snipperclips?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I downloaded the demo. I haven’t launched it yet but I guess I’ll try that next. Try that. You and Adam try that together. He’ll show you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how to play. Okay. But yeah like I think seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Zelda, seeing Tiff play it and seeing you know she and Adam enjoy it a lot and that’s great. It’s very nice and cute to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch. But boy am I glad that I didn’t play it because I would be miserable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is so not my kind of game And even though I can even though I can respect
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much everyone else seems to say how good it is If you’re not into that kind of game,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t I don’t think this is gonna sway you So all this is to say that I’m sure glad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that tiff is playing this thing that I stupidly bought and Casey
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you are on the fence about whether Zelda is a big driver for you to buy it I’d say you’re safe to wait.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Hey John do you have those little puppy stickers?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh for the for the controller? Yeah! Like the little slide thingies? No I do not have the puppy face
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann stickers.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t use that controller I just use the pro controller.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann It doesn’t matter I put the sticker on it just sits on the Super cute. It looks like a little
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann messed up puppy. It’s eyes all jacked up. I
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Have an extra
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you want it I’m betting he doesn’t you
⏹️ ▶️ John do. Yeah, I’m not big. I’m putting stickers on my electronics. Not sure if you’ve heard
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann No, this is like a legit like it’s it’s different. This is different John
⏹️ ▶️ John So like one of those static vinyl stickers that doesn’t actually leave any sticky stuff and come
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann on it’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann be fine just put
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John it on yeah
⏹️ ▶️ John you put stickers on your keyboard though didn’t you me
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Marco no I
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann only have a tiny little sticker
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s it’s an overlay for like the Photoshop keyboard but it’s like a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann rubber thing you just like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann and it just traps all
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann the dirt underneath it so when you pick it up it’s so horrifying you just put it right back down
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a dishwasher safe
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I don’t know I don’t know it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John never been cleaned I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no we just replace it every three years or so
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann yeah when it starts like deteriorating and ripping from hand oils. Oh my god, this
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann is getting gross. Run away!
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I wish, Marco, you should watch Tiff plays. Even though you’re not into playing, she’s
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna get up to some business eventually. He fell asleep. And you should just check out what she gets up to. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you can fall asleep while you watch, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine. I fell asleep within like the first five minutes.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe Tiff needs to involve you more, and like, once she has a couple of projects in the works that
⏹️ ▶️ John she can explain to you what it is that she’s doing, you can get into it. Ooh. Or at least you could be
⏹️ ▶️ John a navigator and decide where you’re going to go together and you as a family can travel to far off
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann You can look for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the arrow twinkle. See, Adam plays this role very, very well as the co-pilot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Tiff as she plays. I am not good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann at this. I just fall asleep and lose
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Although he’s getting super useful now because when I have to go to the bathroom, I’m like, here, you drive for a while. And he
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann walks around and picks up some stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Come back and you’re in the middle of the lake.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Yeah, it’s fine. our horse lost for a little
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John while. What did
⏹️ ▶️ John you name your horse? Horse names are an important thing in this
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann game. Okay
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann he named the first horse… I can’t remember he… no
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann he just made it up some word with that starts with M. Anyway the horse that I’m driving right now is
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann named Arby. Like the like the
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I don’t know he thinks that only legitimate words start with A like his name so he picked Arby.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco System works. He also thinks that any string of characters that starts with A is a real word yeah
⏹️ ▶️ John well for names that you know that kind
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann of work
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Oh Menina Menina I think that that’s what he named the first horse
⏹️ ▶️ John but you might have to like alternate naming rights for horses if it’s gonna continue like this because you won’t be able to keep them straight
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann yeah well I only have three so far the first two we picked out were crap but they’re in the stable anyway
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and the third one’s pretty good our Arby’s are reliable he’s a good horse it’s a good horse
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cool well thank you Tiff for swinging by and dropping some knowledge as usual.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann All right dropping the fierce knowledge on the video games. I had to go back to Zelda. Goodbye.