Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

193: The Escape Zone

The new MacBook Pros, Touch Bars, and sports analysis.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. We’d like to start with the iPhone
  2. Sponsor: Squarespace (code ATP)
  3. And now an update on Apple TV
  4. Apple and accessibility
  5. Let’s talk about the Mac
  6. Sponsor: MacPaw
  7. Touch Bar
  8. Sponsor:
  9. Let’s keep talking about the Mac
  10. Ending theme
  11. Post-show: Keyboards and mice
  12. Post-show: Sport!

We’d like to start with the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is currently five past nine on Thursday night. The Apple event was earlier today. My beloved

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Virginia Tech Hokies are presently losing to the University of Pittsburgh. I am watching it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of the corner of my eye on my iPad on the Watch ESPN app, which is actually very nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I am trying desperately to pay attention to what you guys are saying rather than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch my beloved Hokies. And so if I accidentally let out a cheer,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe given that we’re losing 21-16, a not happy cheer that Marco may

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to bleep. My apologies, but this is what I do for you listeners.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco That’s how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much I do. It would be kind of incredible though to be like perfectly well-timed. Like we’re talking about like, you know, this new touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in case he’s like, f***. You know, like that, come on, that would be kind of amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wouldn’t put it past me. So no promises. All right. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we do have an infinitesimally small bit of follow-up. Get, yes!

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. We’re within 10 yards. That’s a good deal. So we have an infinitesimally small amount of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco follow-up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So for joke reference, this is a football team you’re watching? Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is a football

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco team I’m watching.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have to know wicksport to make terrible jokes about. Fair enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, and isn’t the World Series tonight as well, actually, come to think of it? One of the games, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean. Probably. Isn’t it like every night? I mean, that’s the thing, like baseball

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like a DDoS attack. It’s just like every night there’s baseball. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you can’t get away from baseball. There’s just constantly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco games everywhere, every day.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is amazing. Well done, sir. So we do have a bit of follow up and for the first time in like two or three weeks,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s not me. John, what have you been

⏹️ ▶️ John up to lately? I did actually make it to an Apple store to check out the phones that were there.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was a dedicated trip.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco The only reason I went

⏹️ ▶️ John was to check out the phones.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’re going to start by talking about the iPhone. Yeah, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’ll be quick. It’ll be quick. Here’s a picture you took with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one. Here’s another picture you took with

⏹️ ▶️ John one. Yeah. I was going to send to him but I decided not to um

⏹️ ▶️ John and I was hoping it would clarify he had plenty would clarify which one I wanted to get it didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John really help me that much because

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey really

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah because I know I have a dilemma I think I’ve kind of decided what I’m going to do but you

⏹️ ▶️ John know yeah so the jet black one is grippier uh it would look better if people didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John touch it but people touch it so it looks gross it has little scratches on it like but we already covered all this ground

⏹️ ▶️ John um I think when I think what’s going to end up happening is I’m going to experience the the worst of all possible worlds

⏹️ ▶️ John because what I think I’m going to do is buy a jet black one and try using it without a case

⏹️ ▶️ John and then eventually decide that I can’t handle it without a case because it looks too ugly and gets scratched too much and then buy

⏹️ ▶️ John a case for it later after it’s already damaged and scratched up and put a leather case on my scratched up jet

⏹️ ▶️ John black iPhone 7.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco At least it wouldn’t be a lie. At least you wouldn’t have this pristine phone under there that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think is totally unscratched but there’s actually one scratch on the side. I think I can keep it pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John well, but like I the thing is I’ve never all my iPod touches I’ve had cases for and

⏹️ ▶️ John my one iPhone had a case for us I’m just gonna give it a try without a case because this one is grippy enough that I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John all right You know, let’s let’s give it a try and can I handle the damage that is inevitably going to

⏹️ ▶️ John happen to this? So I think I’m gonna give it a try I almost bought one when I was there but then I remembered that I’m not supposed to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John one until I can Renegotiate some Verizon thing in like 10 days or something and they

⏹️ ▶️ John only had 256 gig models anyway, so I didn’t get one, but I think that’s what I’m going to do. Get a jet black

⏹️ ▶️ John one, try it without a case, see how long I last. I predict that will not last long.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. Now, are you planning to get Apple care?

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yes, yes. I always do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I bought myself this matte black iPhone seven, which I stand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by a few weeks later is the prettiest iPhone I think I’ve ever, I’ve ever owned. I really genuinely believe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s great looking. It is slicker than anything you can imagine, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really darn good looking. Yes! All right, field goal, that’s a good sign. Only down

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by two. So anyway, so I got this, excuse me, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey matte black iPhone. This is all staying in the show, you know. Oh, that’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The listeners will take this journey with me. So I got AppleCare. Yeah, I know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got this AppleCare Plus for the very first time. I never got an AppleCare on anything before to the best of my recollection,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I feel okay about this. Meanwhile, later that same launch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey day, I order Erin a, an iPhone seven, no Apple care

⏹️ ▶️ Casey plus because she always uses a case. We go to a football game this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey past weekend and her phone falls out of her pocket because why wouldn’t it? It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slick as a bar of soap and she didn’t have her case on it yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ask me what happened to Erin’s phone. her three-week-old phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Did you spill water on it? No. That would actually be kind of okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why did it not have a case on it yet? How long does it take for the case installation process after

⏹️ ▶️ John it is purchased? Does it have to bring it to the dealer to put the case on? You just take it out of the

⏹️ ▶️ John box and you put it in the case.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, the rust-proof coating on the undercarriage is really expensive and it takes a long time. Now, what ended

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up happening was we had gotten an Apple case, but even the silicone cases are ridiculously expensive. Just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait, just wait. The silicone cases are like 30 or 40 bucks. And so we had had one, but we were thinking,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, maybe we can find something that’s effectively the same on Amazon. Hadn’t opened up the Apple one in case we could return

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. So what ended up happening was in order to attempt to save the $40, I think it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the, the silicone case that we had already purchased, we ended up now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey having $130 worth of damage that is yet to be fixed because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like when your UPS was sitting next to your computer during the thunderstorm, not plugged into

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it. Yes, exactly. Right. You

⏹️ ▶️ John have the case sitting at home and in the box while you drop your phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mm-hmm. That’s true. That’s absolutely accurate. So So get Apple care is really the moral of the story

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here or put the darn phone in a case and don’t be like me

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And now an update on Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to Squarespace for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m all fired up, ready to go. It’s the Mac Day. I’m so happy, but yet, asterisks. But other,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the most part, I’m happy. It’s Mac Day.

⏹️ ▶️ John We should start by talking about TV then. We should. To give an accurate simulation

⏹️ ▶️ John of the experience of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey watching

⏹️ ▶️ John this presentation.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you know that with John on the phone, we cannot skip anywhere. We’re going to have to go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chronologically. So let’s start with the TV. Things have happened for the Apple TV. And in fact, things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have happened for more than just the Apple TV. They’ve happened for iOS as well. The Mac, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, who cares about the Mac? It’s just a Mac event. So but yeah, there’s an Apple TV app or a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV app, I should say, for iOS, not for the Mac, but for iOS, and as well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the TV, of course. And it’s it’s all things to all people, as long as you don’t care about Netflix or Amazon.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s weird, kind of weird that they did TV stuff in this thing, although we kind of knew that they were going to with, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, just software features, no hardware features, they haven’t fixed the Apple TV remote or anything like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they did want to talk about their new, you know, make the experience of actually watching

⏹️ ▶️ John TV on your Apple TV better, which is, hey, a good thing to do. Maybe don’t spend so long on it in front of an event that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John supposed to be about mix, but whatever. But I think it’s worth talking about because this presentation

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of showed that Apple is still chipping away at Apple TV making steady

⏹️ ▶️ John progress. But on the other hand, I think it also highlighted all the ways that they’re behind. And I had a couple

⏹️ ▶️ John of thoughts in my head while watching this one was that everything they were showing you, like

⏹️ ▶️ John the unified interface TV convenient place to watch all your stuff easier than going to find

⏹️ ▶️ John like what app was I watching that thing in or whatever, you know, having a unified TV thing keeps track of what you’re watching, even if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John using another app to watch it, trying to bring everything together, like their goal of, you know, I

⏹️ ▶️ John forget what the words were. I’ll try to scrub to it in the video here, but like a unified TV experience or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t, what is it? Unified TV experience. There you go. You can’t actually deliver on

⏹️ ▶️ John that until you hit some critical mass of content. And it’s debatable

⏹️ ▶️ John what that critical mass of content is. But obviously we would agree that if you just had HBO,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s never going to be unified interface or if you didn’t have some of the major sports, it wouldn’t be unified interface. But like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not quite sure what that is. But I think Apple, Apple TV does not yet have a critical mass

⏹️ ▶️ John of content. And you may say that’s based solely on Netflix not participating

⏹️ ▶️ John in this, that is enough at this point to say, no, because people want their next flicks, they have

⏹️ ▶️ John exclusive content, people like it. If that’s not part of this experience, so much for unified,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s already bifurcated, and it’s just going to splinter even more for things like local sports that you can’t get. So

⏹️ ▶️ John the goal of unified experience is fine, but as discussed many, many times in the past, if you’re not going to

⏹️ ▶️ John do the omnivorous box thing, you can never present a unified interface unless you

⏹️ ▶️ John literally contain all the content someone wants to watch on TV. And I don’t think they’re close to that

⏹️ ▶️ John for most people, because there’s always going to be something that’s not in Apple TV or not

⏹️ ▶️ John in the TV app in Apple TV for most people. Few people who only watch the things that are in there,

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. But like if that’s that’s their goal. They need to work on the business side of this to

⏹️ ▶️ John figure out if we had these content providers, we could get you know, we will cover 80% of

⏹️ ▶️ John the of the viewing public’s needs or whatever. And I’m sure that changes from country to country and region to region, but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think they’re close now. So that’s depressing. But that’s not gonna do technology has to do entirely with business deals.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the next thing is the TV button, the icon on the

⏹️ ▶️ John remote for the TV button, like it’s kind of the home button was you know when you press it you go

⏹️ ▶️ John back to the screen with all the little rectangles where all your different apps are right but

⏹️ ▶️ John that icon that’s printed on the remote is also the little glyph that’s on the TV app

⏹️ ▶️ John and so in the demo they showed if you go to the TV app launch it and like

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a bunch of things you’re watching and you click on one of them like Game of Thrones then you’re chucked off into the HBO app or you’re watching Game of

⏹️ ▶️ John Thrones and then you hit the TV icon it takes you back to the TV application

⏹️ ▶️ John not back to the screen with a bunch of little rectangles and it’s kind of like this button

⏹️ ▶️ John and this this thing go together and like it should have been there from the beginning but it could be retconned

⏹️ ▶️ John in but either way it kind of changes the fundamental experience I think for the better kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of in the same way that the apple watch experience was changed it’s like look people don’t want to go back to basically springboard on their apple

⏹️ ▶️ John tv all the time it’s supposed to be a television watching device and if you’re watching television the television watching should

⏹️ ▶️ John be the central thing like when you hit the tivo button you you go back to, well, that’s not a good example, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it always takes you back to the stupid main Tivo central, whatever. Anyway, I’m recentering

⏹️ ▶️ John the center of gravity of the tell of Apple TV on television, I think is a good idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John But then now all of a sudden, the Apple TV reframed in this way less as a like, humongous

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad that you don’t touch, you know, like, it’s just like a big iPad, you know, less like a Oh, springboard is the heart of everything, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John springboard is not the heart of everything. The TV app is the heart of Apple TV, because is all about watching TV. And sometimes you might want

⏹️ ▶️ John to play games or whatever, but really, you want to be using the TV app and reframe like that, then

⏹️ ▶️ John again, you see how far behind on there? Where are the user profiles? How can I switch to like my kids

⏹️ ▶️ John thing where all their apps are going? Oh, there’s like up next or whatever? Yeah, fine. If you live alone, and only one person ever watches TV

⏹️ ▶️ John shows at the same time, that’s great. How do I switch to you know, a different account with a different Apple ID

⏹️ ▶️ John or with the same Apple ID, all these things that Netflix has long since figured out because when you launch a Netflix app, you can pick who

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to be and you have your own queue of stuff and You have your own thing that you’ve watched last and I’m not gonna go up to it

⏹️ ▶️ John and find out the next thing It’s up next for me is like, you know Some Disney Channel show that my daughter

⏹️ ▶️ John was watching that I don’t want to watch right? They’re so far behind just the Netflix app let alone

⏹️ ▶️ John other full television experience You know attempts to be a unified thing, so

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m glad Apple TV is making progress I think they’re moving in the right direction, but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John still behind and the remote sucks.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, how do you really feel? You know, I was really excited to see the live

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sports stuff and granted, as we’ve already discussed, I am not at all watching college football

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right now, but being able to just say to Siri, you know, put on the Virginia Tech game

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or what have you, that’s really powerful and really awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John When it works.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When it works, which I mean, well, I’m going on faith that it generally does, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s really exciting. And that’s, like you said, it’s movements in the right direction.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I just have a hard time thinking that for me, this is going to be much of an improvement

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because generally speaking, when I’m using the Apple TV, which I do darn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey near daily, I’m using Plex or I’m using Netflix

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or occasionally I’m using the standard music app. It’s very rare I am doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything else. So having to go, I guess how this would work is I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would hit the TV what was once the home button to go to the TV app and then I guess hit it again

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to go to springboard. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know if it might take you back to the springboard. You think if you’re if you haven’t first launched Apple TV, I have no idea where we saw

⏹️ ▶️ John a demo with two seconds worth of interaction. We’ll find out when we get the OS update, I suppose.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But anyway, if if going back to springboard is via the Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app, or I’m sorry, the TV app always, that’s actually going to be a disappointing change for me,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I hope, I really, really hope that in the future, the Netflix

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Amazon stuff gets squared away so that they can be included because, um, Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is going to be important to me soon because of the grand tour. Like I said, Netflix is where we watch pretty much any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV that isn’t on, you know, terrestrial television

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and plexes for movies and other things. So I feel like this is a step in the right direction,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it’s not there yet. And man, I’m hopeful though. I’m super hopeful, even though I don’t expect anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to actually happen.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Apple has a lot of work to do if it wants to get these things in, like get Netflix on board. If this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the unified TV experience, you need to have Netflix in there. Get Amazon to have a thing like integrate, make sure

⏹️ ▶️ John the people who should be integrating do make sure Plex is integrated. Like if you really want to be unified, you

⏹️ ▶️ John have to reach out. And it’s really hard to get Netflix on board when Apple keeps making motions about, oh, going to be our make our

⏹️ ▶️ John own content like they’re doing that reality show and Tim Cook keeps talking about well you know we’re looking into

⏹️ ▶️ John funding content to be like making your own content is directly competing with Netflix and Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ John who are also making their own content and I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John easier to work with something like HBO which also makes its own content because HBO has no pretensions to make a digital

⏹️ ▶️ John platform for television watching like they’re not selling little pucks that you connect to your TV they don’t sell network services

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re all about the content so that is a little bit more of a straightforward thing But anyway, if this is their plan,

⏹️ ▶️ John they got a lot of work to do. So while we’re waiting for the new Apple TV with a non crappy remote

⏹️ ▶️ John to come out, hopefully all of Apple’s little business people are scurrying around to trying to get these deals

⏹️ ▶️ John to happen, doing whatever it takes. Or just don’t be a TV platform. Like if you’re going to play in this game and try to provide

⏹️ ▶️ John a unified interface, then provide unified interface. I don’t want to see, you know, 10 years from now,

⏹️ ▶️ John three or four islands of content with their own apps and their own ecosystems totally separate from each other. It’s annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ John Steven

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Connelly All right, anything else about the TV? I know, I know, Marco, you are really excited to talk about it some more,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but—

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Rubio Oh, yes. I care so much about television. Steven

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Connelly You know, you say that, and I know to some degree you’re being silly, but don’t you watch all of your TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through the Apple TV? Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Rubio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I don’t care about it whatsoever. Like to me, I—the Apple TV is something that I—it’s—I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of treat the Apple TV the way a lot of like our friends who love iPads so much treat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac. It’s a thing that I use. I choose it as the best of a whole bunch of tools

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t care about. And I use it and I don’t really think about it. I don’t have a lot of passion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for TV or TV-related things or TV-related boxes. The Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new Apple TV box is largely fine. It could be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better in a lot of ways. I think it will always just be fine. The old one was always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just fine also. The Apple TV as a product line has been around for quite some time, and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has always been fine. So I expect it to continue to be fine if we continue to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use it on a regular basis, but really just never think about it at all, except when I’m using it and it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you’ll appreciate the up next thing, because if you actually use that TV app, it’s an easier way to get back, what was I doing

⏹️ ▶️ John before on the Apple TV if it hasn’t retained state on the thing, to be able to just go to that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Except that the things that I watch most often are Netflix and Plex,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I’m pretty sure will probably never be in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it. Will not be in that, yeah. So.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hear ya. You know, it’s the kind of thing, like I don’t have cable, so I don’t have a cable login, so I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use any apps that require a cable login. I do have HBO Go now,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whichever one. I have one of the HBOs. Now. But I’ve actually been, thank you, I’ve actually been thinking about canceling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, because we hardly ever watch anything there. Like we watch stuff in bursts, and you can always just turn it off and turn it on again. Touchdown,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh no, nevermind. Damn. Regardless, I don’t think I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to possibly ever see this TV app, or if I do, it’ll be something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that gets in my way that I have to click the fake home button one more time out of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get to what I really want to watch. Steven

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Luckett All right, anything else on the Apple TV? Michael O’Brien Is your team losing yet? Steven Luckett They are losing. I thought we had a touchdown,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which would have put us somewhat comfortably in the lead, but I was mistaken. Michael O’Brien Riveting. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know

Apple and accessibility

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We forgot to mention something. Apple opened the keynote with a really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lovely video on accessibility.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean that genuinely. I completely forgot to mention that. I thought that was really cool. And they said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they’re going to, or I guess, I think it’s already there. I just haven’t looked at it yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They’re going to have like a top level, so to speak, accessibility page on their website, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we should check out and we’ll find it and put a link in the show notes. But I thought that was a really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great video. And in many ways, I think that’s Apple at its best. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just wanted to applaud them for it because I thought that was really good stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has always been really good with accessibility stuff. Like, you know, they haven’t been perfect by all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco means. And anybody who uses these technologies will tell you the various times they haven’t been perfect. But compared to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what almost everyone else in the industry does, Apple’s accessibility support is just world-class.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s so good. And what you get out of the box with Apple products for things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like screen readers and click control thing, you know, all sorts of various technologies.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A lot of times this kind of stuff is available on other platforms, but only if you like buy additional software or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have additional hardware even. And it’s just it’s it is like what you get with Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of the box with all their products. Accessibility wise is just ridiculously good compared to everything else

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the market. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John the most important feature of these videos is aside from you know making people think Apple is a nice

⏹️ ▶️ John company and you know doing all the like the PR effect that cynically like, Oh, you go to these video show you, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John such a nice company. Well, they are a nice company and be that the the other side effect of this

⏹️ ▶️ John is that it exposes people who don’t use these features. People like me, uh, don’t use

⏹️ ▶️ John these features for the most part to the fact that they exist and how they work. I had no idea

⏹️ ▶️ John that the camera on the iPhone will speak to you about who’s in the frame and whether it finds a face

⏹️ ▶️ John and how big the face is. So a person who can’t see can take pictures with it with the camera, like when do

⏹️ ▶️ John regular people experience these features? I don’t think most people go into accessibility and turn on accessibility features

⏹️ ▶️ John created for people who have bad or no vision or can’t hear or so on and so forth. Just experiment with it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Most people don’t see these features at all. And so when you say accessibility, maybe people don’t even know what you mean.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re like, well, what do you mean? How can a blind person use an iPhone, you got to see the screen, right? People just don’t know, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And this, these things, I think, show, you know, what marketers how far

⏹️ ▶️ John these products go to be usable in situations that regular people don’t consider because they don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John if you don’t, if you don’t have these limitations, you don’t know what thing what affordances

⏹️ ▶️ John are there to help you with them until you need them. Like it’s as we all get old, for example,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure most of us will be cranking up the tech size and all of a sudden we’ll appreciate that feature that we never

⏹️ ▶️ John touched before. Like my parents use their iPhone like six size device in like the big mode

⏹️ ▶️ John where I forget what it’s called, like you’ve everything is bigger. It’s like zoom in. It’s a non native res.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, and that feature is meaningless to me now. But eventually as my vision gets worse,

⏹️ ▶️ John suddenly it’ll be like, oh, I’m glad that’s there. These videos do a good job of highlighting to both users

⏹️ ▶️ John and developers that this stuff is actually there. Um, so that when they do eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John get older and start, uh, you know, that their sensory perception starts changing, they’ll know

⏹️ ▶️ John to go and find those and they’ll feel good about, you know, using a product line that offers these

⏹️ ▶️ John users and for developers it’s reminding them it’s not just about putting labels on your things there’s other

⏹️ ▶️ John you know go the extra mile like see what we did with the camera app if you have a camera app you

⏹️ ▶️ John could do something like this to your application will be more accessible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all right what else was spoken about pre-mac stuff there was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nothing that pertinent right didn’t they talk about iPhones briefly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh they talked about how well the Apple watch is selling but not giving numbers I don’t think and yeah I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who Who cares? Let’s talk about Macs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It’s a Mac day.

⏹️ ▶️ John They talk about iOS penetration of iOS 10 versus

⏹️ ▶️ John the latest version of Android or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let’s be

⏹️ ▶️ John honest,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they were killing time.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know why they were killing time. They didn’t have… It’s one thing to have filler, and

⏹️ ▶️ John the second thing to just make what should have been a much shorter presentation way too long, but they did.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We forgot to mention something about the Apple TV. Minecraft is on the Apple TV. I’m not trying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be snarky. Is that something we care about? Is that a big deal or do you think no one will use that? I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey squat about Minecraft.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that’s that big. I mean it’s a big deal and that Minecraft is super popular and tons of people

⏹️ ▶️ John will buy it and play it. But Minecraft is available on like every platform in the universe.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the fact that it’s on Apple TV now, yeah you have parody. Good. Thank you.

Let’s talk about the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so I guess I’ve run out of reasons to stall other than to say that tech is up 22 21 over pit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s talk about the Mac overall, I Feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like this is okay. I think this was good. I certainly have been left I’ve there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey certain things that I’m disappointed by but in the grand scheme of things these new MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros Look really darn good. Really really good I’m amped about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the what do they call it the touch bar? I’m I don’t know if I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it but Tentatively, it looks good. I’m excited I’m excited to try it even though

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I Don’t plan on buying one and I’m not gonna get one from work for two years. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m excited to try it I am sad, although completely unsurprised that they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t have like a magic keyboard update that included it. I I understand that leaving

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that screen on would surely take a not insignificant amount of battery power, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean the Magic Keyboard is rechargeable now, so who really cares? If I have to charge

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it

⏹️ ▶️ John once… You connect it with a wire and then you wouldn’t have that problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I wouldn’t want to be an animal, but I could do that. But no, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would love to see a Magic Keyboard that had this touch bar on it. I don’t expect it’ll happen, but it would be neat.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I say that in part because at home I use a desktop. I use an iMac and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey certainly today there was no real talk about anything for the desktop, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t say I’m surprised by that either. I mean, what are they really going to do to the iMac? There’s not really any new chips are there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and, and outside of maybe a new fancy keyboard wired or wireless, or maybe I guess

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you could put different ports on it. You could put USB-C ports on it, but that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not that remarkable to me. So I’m not too surprised that there’s not a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey desktop activity. really thought the Mac Pro would be updated, am I right? I mean, come on.

⏹️ ▶️ John We were talking about this last week, when Marco said the same thing, like if we’re going to update the iMac at all, it’s just USB

⏹️ ▶️ John C ports and we didn’t mention another fancy keyboard, but…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s not entirely true. I believe the Kaby Lake CPUs are available,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco roughly, for the iMac. I’m not sure if they’re in volume really yet, but technically, new CPUs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are basically available for the iMac now.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know, but none of us expected the iMac to come or the Mac Pro or the Mac Mini. You expected the

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really? iMac has been updated the last two falls like it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John made

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense like it is right on schedule for the iMac to be updated I’m guessing it’s it probably is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far off like I mean I wouldn’t expect it like next week but I’m guessing it’s not gonna be like another year until the next iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco update it’s probably gonna be a few months maybe I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know you’re more optimistic than I am I like I said in the last show I think they should keep updating

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac but I have dim hopes that they will like is that cuz I mean

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t understand the reasoning behind the cadence of like doing iMac updates so faithfully and then just

⏹️ ▶️ John dropping it but I totally expected not to have any desktop Macs at this thing at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well the thing is like you know what it doing an update when it’s when it’s a fairly minor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco processor and motherboard chipset update it is not that hard it doesn’t take that much engineering work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Apple you know not not any more engineering than any other update is like and and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used to be not that long ago that every time there was a new chip set

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out for either the MacBook, the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air, or the iMac, it got updated like within

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a month of that new chip coming out. So it’s only been in these recent years where there’s all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been like Apple skipping generations and Intel having weird delays, it’s only been in those years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we started having these things where Apple is kind of like deciding whether they want to bother updating things. I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it used to just be assumed of course they would update their main computers with the new chips that came out. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the iMac line of chips has not had those problems that all the mobile ones have had with Intel.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the iMacs have actually been updated on a regular basis until right now, and it’s a little questionable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why it wasn’t there now, and I guess the answer will not be apparent until whenever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is updated next. Then we’ll figure out, like, you know, why did it not get updated now, I guess. But…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I think I have an answer, though, because if you look at Wikipedia, which is clearly the source of all human

⏹️ ▶️ Casey knowledge and never incorrect. The Kaby Lake Wikipedia entry says that it began shipping to manufacturers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and OEMs in the second quarter of this year. Mobile chips have started shipping with more of Kaby Lake desktop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chips to be released in the coming months or early next year. So what makes you think that they’re available

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the iMac right now?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. Random people on Twitter told me. I could be wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ John You want random people in the chat room are pointing out that if they are available, it’s almost certainly not the ones with the fancy iris

⏹️ ▶️ John graphics that Apple always likes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fair enough. So that could be the reason then. It could be as simple as that. Also, I think it’s worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pointing out, we heard from a lot of people, because Intel officially, quote, launched Kaby Lake like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a month or two ago or whatever it was, and we immediately heard from everybody on Twitter saying, how could Apple release

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Skylake laptops now and not Kaby Lake? And of course, the reason why is because when Intel announces a launch, it means

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing. It’s like Intel’s basically saying, these chips will be available sometime maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the future. And at the actual time that you can ship computers with the right ones for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco those computers might be two to 12 months away from that time period.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But anyway, Kaby Lake I don’t think is a big deal. From everything that we’ve read about it, from what we know about it so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far, it seems like it is not really something that you should be really waiting up for.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sky Lake was a big deal, Kaby Lake really isn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also have another important update for you. It’s 2921 Tech, the good guys are winning.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is this a basketball game you’re watching? There’s a lot of scoring going on here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you know, football, sometimes it’s more offensive than defensive game.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Are you voting for the Hooties, or what are you doing? Hokies,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey H-O-K-I-E-S.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like that ringer of an Auburn game they had, where Auburn was up like 50-something.

⏹️ ▶️ John If only. You get

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to

⏹️ ▶️ John do that when you’re CEO, I guess.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. Okay, so no desktop, so no iMac updates.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s unclear whether or not Kaby Lake is available. Tipster’s saying yes, I’m seeing no.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it doesn’t matter if it’s available, as there’s lead times to getting it into computers. And Apple recently has not

⏹️ ▶️ John been that spry about like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco as soon

⏹️ ▶️ John as the chips are ready, we’re gonna be ready to go. Like, that’s kind of more of the old Apple, and this new one is like,

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t even wake me up until they’re available in volume and the next generation is about to come out.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Then maybe we’ll incorporate them into a computer of some kind.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco When Apple delays on things, like, and we don’t, this is probably Intel delay here, but when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple delays on things, what I’m saying is, you know, we don’t really have to make excuses for Apple anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, they are the biggest corporation in the world most of the time. They have tons of resources

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they can choose to devote to updating their computers to new components that come out for them. It isn’t that hard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It doesn’t take a lot of time or money relative to what they make from them and what they have as a company. So we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to excuse them. It is up to them to update things, and it is my opinion they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should not be slackers about that or skip generation simply because they don’t feel like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. So sadness about, well, maybe not sadness about the iMac. I think we can all agree that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasonably expected. Sadness, but not surprised about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the, what is that little Mac called? It doesn’t come with any devices attached to it. It’s not got

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a display. It’s like a tiny Mac. No, no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco no, no, no. The

⏹️ ▶️ Casey circular one. Not the circular one. It’s like more of a rounded rack. It’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Mac. The old Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John The Apple TV you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey thinking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac… shoot, I can’t remember the name of Mac… Small? Mac Small, maybe? No, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much smaller than that. Oh, man, it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John come to me. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it’s the Mac Air.

⏹️ ▶️ John The Power Mac G4 Cube. Yes, that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, is that it? Okay, yeah. So, no Power Mac G4 Cube updates. No trashcan

⏹️ ▶️ Casey updates, thank God, because I wouldn’t even pay attention to this show anymore. I’d just be watching

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my football game. Actually, maybe they should have updated the Mac Pro. Isn’t that what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re doing?

⏹️ ▶️ John Speaking of the Mac Pro, I was surprised at how many random angry people

⏹️ ▶️ John there were on Twitter about there being no Mac Pro update, which shows that there’s this weird sort of Venn diagram

⏹️ ▶️ John between people who understand that the Mac Pro hasn’t been updated in forever, but don’t follow the stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John enough to know that there was no way in hell a new Mac Pro was coming out in this thing. So it’s kind of weird that the

⏹️ ▶️ John anger has spread beyond the people who are ever actually going to buy one to just the general public being embarrassed for Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John for having this quote unquote pro computer that pretty soon the watch will be faster than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well because you know even if you’re not about to buy a Mac Pro the fact that they have this high-end

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the highest-end computer in their lineup that has been so neglected high-end air super

⏹️ ▶️ Marco air quotes yes well it’s I mean if you do parallel stuff it’s still the fastest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s fastest on no other benchmark but on that barely barely or you get like five iPads yes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably not not even that many. But the reason this matters is what you argued, John,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in your supercar halo car thing. That it matters whether

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple is treating its high end well if you are a Mac user at all. Because if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple is neglecting significant portions of its user base for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac lineup and you are a Mac user or you are heavily invested in the Mac as a platform, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should be a warning sign for you. That should set off warning bells to say, wait a minute, maybe the health

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of my platform or the future of my platform is not as healthy or guaranteed as I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would like because if they’re neglecting this whole big area of it, maybe there are worse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things to come or maybe they aren’t putting the right resources into it. So it is totally relevant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether you buy a Mac Pro or not how Apple treats their pro customers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m just like they crossed over the point now where it has moved beyond and now

⏹️ ▶️ John is affecting a broader base of people. It’s kind of like as if

⏹️ ▶️ John they were still selling the original Dodge Viper, like the original original Dodge Viper. It had not changed

⏹️ ▶️ John in any way. And it would be like, oh, it’s a great halo car for Dodge or Chrysler. But

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually it becomes an embarrassment because the original Viper was a terrible car in so many ways.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it just can’t compete with today’s supercars. Like it would be like, you know, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John your halo car for Dodge can be beaten off the line by like a Volkswagen GTI now. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just be or even a lesser car. I keep it stops being a halo car

⏹️ ▶️ John when it loses in single threaded performance. The two, you know, run on the mill computers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So anyway, so no Mac Pro, not surprising. No Mac mini, not surprising.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No iMac, almost entirely not surprising. That leaves us

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the portable Macs. So the MacBook Pro, as I was talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a few minutes ago, MacBook Pro’s looking really good. Aesthetically, it’s looking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really good. I think what they’ve done is really cool. The touch bar looks great.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And we can go through this line by line, but man,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s to the point that between this external display, which actually we should talk about as well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I have at work, the 4K display I have at work, and these new MacBook Pros,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m starting to doubt my newfound love for my desktop iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey existence, because I love this 5K iMac, I love it to death, but I just can’t help but think to myself, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, I could get one of these 4K or maybe the fancy 5K LG display, I could get one of these new MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros. Life could be pretty good that way. So, I don’t know, one of you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is probably upset about this, so talk me out of spending money I don’t have that on a computer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t need.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m probably the most upset, but Marco can go first and say why he likes it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I will go back to your earlier point, which I will, you know, I’m probably not done talking about this point yet,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but basically the Touch Bar looks really cool. I’m sure it’s going to be a really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big deal for people when they are working on their laptops and no doubt that is a lot of people a lot of the time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco However, it is not on every laptop. Apple sells a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the MacBook Air class computers and so for everyone who bought the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Adorable slash MacBook One, or for everyone who buys the old, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of still for sale but old, MacBook Air, or the new, whatever we’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco call the low-end configuration of the MacBook, names in the chat that I liked a lot so far,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are MacBook Escape, or the effin’ book. I think MacBook Escape is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably my favorite one. But, oh, the Air Pro was, and the effin’ Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were also very good. But MacBook Escape is really good. Anyway, so all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco those people, that’s a lot of Mac buyers, not to mention all the desktop buyers, and granted, I know laptops are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more popular than desktops, so I know the desktop buyers don’t count for as much, but all those people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the entire Mac user base that has a computer already before today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does not have a touch bar. And even if you are one of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people who has one of the new MacBook Pros with the touch bar that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is only actually accessible to you when you are using it in its regular mode. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not in clamshell mode at a desk, not as a second screen with a main screen and an external

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard and mouse. Only when you’re using those particular models of computer and only when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using them right on them in normal quote laptop mode. That is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the Touch Bar can be used. It is going to be a really great convenience

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the people who use it in that way, But I don’t think it’s going to radically take over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac experience yet and become like a must-have accessory until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is available across the entire lineup, laptops and desktops in some form.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That might become more interesting then, you know, when you can kind of assume that all modern Macs have it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you can’t assume that today as either a user or a developer. So I think it’s gonna take a while before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that becomes a must-have thing. It will be a convenience from day one, And surely, Apple’s apps having it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco built in is nice. And that’s a lot of apps that people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use on the Mac, are Apple’s built-in apps, so that’s good. But it’s gonna take a while. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the first Retina MacBooks came out in 2012, it took a long time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most of what you saw on screen to be Retina. It took a couple years at least for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps and websites and everything to update. For the Touch Bar, it’s gonna take a while before you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can really get into using it with many of your apps and everything. So I would say for you Casey, looking at these today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and feeling bad you don’t have one, it’s the kind of thing where if you’re buying a new laptop,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you were buying one anyway, then I think you should consider the Touch Bar as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an important thing to have, you know, probably. And all this should be prefaced by saying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that none of the three of us were at the event, none of the three of us have review units, so none of the three of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us have ever touched these or handled these or seen these in real life. So, all this could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be out the window the first time that the world kind of gets more experienced with these and we know more about them and how they work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in reality. But I would say probably that if you’re buying today or if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recently bought something you don’t want to buy another thing, you don’t really have to feel bad yet that you don’t have this touch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bar because it’s going to be a while before apps can assume that a lot of people have it and it’s going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while before a lot of apps take advantage of it. we still don’t know how much of a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco must-have thing it will be in practice until these things are out for a while and we can kind of look more objectively after it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of after the cool has kind of rubbed off and we’ve and we’ve we’ve either use them ourselves or we know people who have used them and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ve gotten like some long-term opinions from ourselves or others about like how useful this actually is in practice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so for now you don’t need to feel bad

⏹️ ▶️ John you should feel bad not because you don’t have a touch bar but because you don’t have a MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro with like modern internals, it’s way faster than the one you have now. So that bad feeling, that

⏹️ ▶️ John bad feeling remains.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So question for both of you, and I’ll start with Marco. Do you think that a keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with a touch bar will ever exist for a desktop Mac?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or do you think it will always, always, always be for laptops? And if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yes, if you think it will one day exist for desktop Mac, would Apple just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey completely go bananas and make it wired only? Or do you think it would be just basically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a revision of the smart keyboard as it is today?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I honestly don’t know. I’m leaning towards no, and no one’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to like the reason why. But I’m leaning towards no.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I know it. I know the reason.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You probably do. We all know the reason. I’m leaning towards no because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, a, I think putting the touch bar as it exists today into something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the size and price of the magic keyboard, I think would be very challenging and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably a lot of constraints there, many of which are self-imposed by Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I basically don’t like I don’t see them wanting to make their keyboard bigger. I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the market having much tolerance for them making their keyboard more expensive. It’s already pretty expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t really see them, you know, wanting to have multiple models of keyboard that they sell. I mean, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can barely sell peripherals at all anymore, so, you know, I don’t see that happening. But ultimately,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the biggest reason why I don’t honestly see this happening, even if they could get over the technical stuff…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here it comes. …is that I just don’t think Apple gives a damn about desktops anymore. And that’s not to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say they’re never going to make one again, but I just think the focus… I mean, Look,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can barely get Tim Cook to pretend to care about the Mac. At all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All Macs. You know, there’s a reason why Tim didn’t say a lot today about the Mac. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was delegated to Phil and Craig. Because they, I’m pretty sure, care deeply about the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They seem like they’re really Mac champions inside the company at the very high level. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tim, I don’t think is. I don’t think Tim cares. I don’t think he even hides that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very well. I don’t think he even, honestly, tries. I don’t think Tim cares.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so as long as the company is led by Tim, I don’t see the Max making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantial advances. And what I see instead

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is what we see today, which is they’re going to keep doing what they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do to move things along occasionally, to be thinner, lighter, better,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco faster. That’s what they do. But I don’t see a time under Tim Cook’s rule,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is probably going to be long, I don’t see a time of this happening here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where Tim is going to decide that the Mac really needs a lot of effort put

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into it and it needs like, you know, major resources and major prioritization. I just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t see that happening. So I don’t think they’re going to put in like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the lots of work that it would take and possible profit cannibalization of other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco products to meaningfully enable this on desktops. I just don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it happening. I wish it would, but I just don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s assume for just one moment that you’re right, that Tim either doesn’t care about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Mac or let’s even go so far as to say he freaking hates the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not saying he hates it. What I’m saying is, he’s obviously not a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac person. I’m pretty sure he has said on the record multiple times that he does his work on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPads anyway. So I don’t think he uses Macs very often, if at all. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he is very much profit-focused, and he looks at where Apple can make the most profit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and diverts resources there. And things that make still good profit, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just less, are kind of out of his field of vision most of the time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So basically, I just don’t think Tim gives a lot of thought to the Mac, and I don’t think It’s a priority

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for him.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So let’s assume that’s true in any degree of aggressiveness. He hates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the MAC or maybe he just doesn’t really care. Maybe it’s just another line item, like you said. Let’s assume any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of those is true. He’s a pretty smart man from everything we can tell.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Don’t you think he would trust in his lieutenants and those who do care

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the MAC to carry it forward? I don’t view Tim as the thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey standing in the way of the Mac being this perfect device that you’re excited

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to buy a new one every six months or what have you. I really don’t think Tim’s the problem here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s just that Apple is doing what they think is best. I think you had said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, laptops are the Macs that everyone buys. We

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are weird buying desktops and super weird for you to buying cheese graters and trash cans.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I don’t think Tim is the problem. I think it’s just that this is where the users

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are. So why not cater to the 90%? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s debatable whether it’s even a problem. I mean, the job of the CEO is to be forward-looking. It’s like, is this a product line that’s in

⏹️ ▶️ John ascension or in decline? And clearly, desktop PCs and laptop PCs in that whole market are

⏹️ ▶️ John in decline compared to smartphones and possibly even tablets. And so he’s trying to be forward-looking.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But not for Apple. That’s the thing. They’re not in decline for Apple. They’re in decline for everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else. But until Apple stopped updating them for three years, they weren’t in decline for Apple. Like Apple has this entire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco market that it could keep taking share from. It’s a big market.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was declined relative to the rest of their business because the rest of the business was growing much faster. At this point, service revenue is more than

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac revenue, right? Because service revenue was growing and guess what? It just passed Mac revenue, right? So if you are looking

⏹️ ▶️ John where the next big, you know, where is the next big product that’s going to go on a big

⏹️ ▶️ John growth trajectory going to come from? It’s not the PC. It’s not the Mac. That’s what Apple currently

⏹️ ▶️ John thinks. And so again, it’s debatable whether long term, this is an incorrect choice. I think we’re in the painful period

⏹️ ▶️ John now where it’s like, well, look, are you going to do Macs or you’re not going to do Macs? Apple’s like, Oh, no, we’re going to do Macs.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re doing them not with the gusto, meaning not with the investment that they used to do them.

⏹️ ▶️ John And to get back to Casey’s question, you know, do I think they’re going to do a keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John with with a touch bar on it? The Apple that was

⏹️ ▶️ John still investing heavily in the Mac where the Mac was like, super important and central even

⏹️ ▶️ John even as the iPhone was growing and the iPod and all these other businesses were obviously where the big

⏹️ ▶️ John growth was back, you know, not too many years ago, Apple was still heavily investing in the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John because those growing ones started off small and the iPod one did a hump and went back down, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And so it was like, well, the Mac, you know, we got to keep investing in the Mac is the iPod looks great. And it’s this big business for

⏹️ ▶️ John us. But actually, we can see it’s on the way back down, or the iPhone is looking great. And it’s on its way back up. But if you were to look at

⏹️ ▶️ John those line graphs, the Mac was still in the mix. Certain point, the phone

⏹️ ▶️ John just took off and now every single graph is like here’s the iPhone company and then there’s some

⏹️ ▶️ John lines down there

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco near the horizontal

⏹️ ▶️ John axis and those lines are like service revenue Macintosh like just crap like that. And once that happens,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s hard to it’s hard to justify like is it the right thing for the for the CEO to do

⏹️ ▶️ John to continue to invest that much proportionally in the Mac as you used to. And it’s clear that they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not right. And so the old Apple not I’m saying like good old days, but the old Apple with the old Apple mix of products

⏹️ ▶️ John and revenue and profits, right? That Apple would have had touch bar keyboards

⏹️ ▶️ John in this presentation today, like guaranteed, because like Marco said, What the hell is the point of this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing? Even people who have laptops when they sit them at their desk, you know, you’re not like laptops

⏹️ ▶️ John are bad ergonomically to sit in front of all day, the keyboard should not be touching the display. Like it’s like that because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a portable device. And you know, when you use it portably, what you got to go with. But if you’re sitting at a desk, your laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John is off to the side, you have a second monitor, or your laptop is up on a stand, but then you can’t use that keyboard and you’re using a big keyboard, like

⏹️ ▶️ John the touch bar can’t be part of the quote unquote Mac experience if the only place that exists is on keyboard attached to a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John period. So the old Apple would have had it because the old Apple was investing in the Mac much more for

⏹️ ▶️ John comprehensible reasons, not like out of spite or meanness or whatever. Now, if you were to have this

⏹️ ▶️ John discussion with Tim Cook, and try to convince him that it it is important to continue to invest in the Mac, you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John say it’s because the Mac is going to be proportionally a larger percentage of apples profit and revenue in

⏹️ ▶️ John the future because it probably isn’t. But you could make the argument that even though it looks small, and the argument I think we’ve made,

⏹️ ▶️ John even though it looks small, and it’s it’s not going to come out of nowhere and become a big thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is as many people have pointed out on Twitter and said it with various metaphors or whatever, the foundation of so

⏹️ ▶️ John many other things that Apple does, you’ve got the halo car factor for having like the you know, highest performance computing device.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve got the fact that the development for all you the for the platform that’s important, most important to your company is done on max,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? You’ve got the historical loyalty and fan base, you’ve got the

⏹️ ▶️ John alpha geeks, creatives type angle, which we can talk about when we talk about the Microsoft Studio, there are lots

⏹️ ▶️ John of reasons not having to do with how much they sell or how much their profit is that the Mac is really

⏹️ ▶️ John important. And I can make that argument pretty strongly to Tim Cook. And I bet people are trying to make that

⏹️ ▶️ John argument. But that argument relies on a lot of assumptions, or you have to be convinced that if this and this and this, therefore this,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t back it up by saying, Look, I don’t even need to convince you of like human psychology or customer

⏹️ ▶️ John loyalty or other things like that. I can just show you the lines on a graph with dollar signs attached

⏹️ ▶️ John to them, and you can be convinced you have to go to a more touchy feely argument to convince Tim Cook to invest more

⏹️ ▶️ John in the Mac than they’re currently investing. And I’m hope I’m hoping the people who are making that argument

⏹️ ▶️ John inside Apple are winning. And that what we’re just seeing here is, you know, a

⏹️ ▶️ John course correction that they haven’t quite corrected all the way and a couple of the Intel delays mess things up and they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be restarted in the next year when they inevitably reduce produce these sky like Mac pros

⏹️ ▶️ John someday, maybe possibly, is it inevitable? Oh, I don’t know. I backtracked

⏹️ ▶️ John from the inevitable saying the potential Mac Pro that we might, you know, they could

⏹️ ▶️ John still turn this around and sort of get back on an even keel. But the the lack of a touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ John external keyboard is a perfect example of how Apple is just not investing

⏹️ ▶️ John as much in the Mac as they used to. And it’s I think it is an argument to be had of whether

⏹️ ▶️ John that is smart or not smart. But as fans of Max, as all of us on this podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John are friends of Max, it is painful to see the product that used to be so important to the company

⏹️ ▶️ John being so much less important now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I, I, I don’t know if I would go that far at all. Just because they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not updating desktop Macs with the speed or efficacy that you two approve of doesn’t mean they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t care about the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or any Mac. These, the laptops weren’t updated forever either.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, yeah, but I think a lot of that was, obviously none of us know, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I were to wager a guess that was relying on Intel to give them a decent reason

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to to make an update, or perhaps, let’s assume that wasn’t the issue, maybe they were just trying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get this pretty darn fancy touch bar tech and the fancy Touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ID tech, which apparently is basically a mini Apple Watch within the device,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey within the MacBook Pro. That can’t have been easy. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think it’s fair to characterize Apple as caring, as not caring about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Mac or caring that much less about the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac. not about caring. It’s, it’s investment. It’s not care, like don’t it’s not personify the company.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s and it’s like, how much money and resources do you put into this? It’s investment. It’s not it’s not like we

⏹️ ▶️ John max feelings are hurt or whatever. It’s a choice of resource allocation, right? And that’s the that’s the argument that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John making towards this. And I feel like like the perfect example is like, even if we buy everything you’re saying about the touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ John and being difficult or whatever, it’s apparently ready to announce now, they could have announced keyboards right alongside

⏹️ ▶️ John it. But you know, if they felt that was important part of the Mac experience. And speaking of the Touch Bar,

⏹️ ▶️ John the next topic I want to move to is specifically about Touch Bar, but we can get done gnashing our teeth

⏹️ ▶️ John over the Mac investment.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but that’s the thing is, I really don’t, I mean, I guess there’s no way that I’m going to convince

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you that you’re wrong and there’s certainly no way you’re going to convince me that I’m wrong. But I just, for the record, there’s one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the three of us that thinks that there are investments happening to the Macs.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey As it sits right now, I feel like I’m a more desktop Mac guy than a portable Mac guy. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am really excited about the MacBook Pros and that is what most Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey users use. Almost everyone uses MacBook Pros or perhaps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Airs, which at this point are near as makes no difference to the Pros. I mean, the Pro is effectively an Air. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think it’s fair to characterize this as a lack of investment. I don’t think it’s fair of the three of us to say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, putting a mini Apple Watch next to a mini Retina display on a box

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s physically smaller, that has better battery life, that is quicker. Like, these are all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey worthwhile investments. And I don’t think it’s fair that a bunch of nerds are getting butthurt

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about the fact that this isn’t the thing that they wanted Apple to invest

⏹️ ▶️ John in. No, that’s not what this is about at all. Like, even if we ignore all of like what we think Apple’s philosophy is and how they

⏹️ ▶️ John choose to invest, because we don’t know where their money goes because we don’t have that lever of granularity. Ignore all that and just treat

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple as a black box and look at the products they release and when they release them. the release cadence of Macs

⏹️ ▶️ John has changed. They release them less often, which means that the existing ones that you

⏹️ ▶️ John can buy are worse relative to other things, and they also keep selling the old ones for much longer. That is

⏹️ ▶️ John inarguably a fact. And you could say, that’s not because they’re not investing as much. In fact, they’re investing even

⏹️ ▶️ John more, but that dictates that they have to have bigger gaps between products. That is probably the only argument you can make, because like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, it actually costs so much more money to do the Touch Bar than the other things they did with the Macs. But I don’t really buy that either. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook Pros that were out there on the market were behind. The 15 inch MacBook Pro was

⏹️ ▶️ John an embarrassing product to sell. It’s like, this used to be the best, like in the presentation, like the best MacBook Pro, now we made it even better.

⏹️ ▶️ John They used to be able to do that pitch because when they replaced them, the old one was still pretty good. The old one was a piece of crap.

⏹️ ▶️ John What the hell was it? Ivy Bridge or Haswell, whatever the hell it had in it? It was Haswell. Like, it’s ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like that’s not, and that’s, we can argue about what the cause of that was, but on the outside, we can see

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the case. That 15-inch MacBook Pro was not a pro product, was not the worth of the price they were buying for it. It wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro levels of bad, but it was bad. And this is their flagship product. And so of course when they make a new one, it’s thinner,

⏹️ ▶️ John faster, better. Like, yeah, that’s great. It’s thinner, faster, better. We totally agree with all that. Of course, when they

⏹️ ▶️ John compare it to the old models, it’s like, oh, come on. Look how much faster it is than our old MacBook Pro. You know why? Because your old MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John sucked. That’s why it’s so much better. Like, of course, like, we know, like, and again,

⏹️ ▶️ John I know this is sounding negative. I’m going to get even more negative in a little bit. These

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco are good machines,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But what I’m arguing against Casey is, I’m trying to convince you that regardless of what we think about these

⏹️ ▶️ John machines, which I think they’re pretty darn good, and we’ll talk about that eventually, I promise,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think you can say that Apple is putting the same amount of resources

⏹️ ▶️ John into the Mac as they used to, because the proof is in the products that they release and when they release them. And we can argue

⏹️ ▶️ John about what the causes are and stuff like that, but I don’t think there’s an argument to be had that they’re doing the same as they used to.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not fair to say that they’re putting the same amount of investment in as they used to. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey concur. But what I’m hearing, which maybe is a misinterpretation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my part, is what I’m hearing is, oh, they’re ignoring the Mac. The Mac is on life support. Nobody cares about the Mac. Tim

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cook hates the Mac. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I don’t see that. You said all

⏹️ ▶️ John those things,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not us.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John mean, I just, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know. I feel like you’re crapping all over the you collective you and not just you two. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I saw a lot of just grumbling going on today on Twitter. Like I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone’s just getting grumpy about, oh, touchdown tech. Everyone’s getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco grumpy about the Mac. There

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we go, now you’re happy. And now I’m back,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I’m back, I’m back. Wait, everyone’s getting grumpy about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac. Text the one that you like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Correct. Or is it the 2Ds or whatever?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s exactly right, yeah. So everyone’s getting so upset about, oh, they’re not investing enough

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the Mac. And I just, personally, I don’t see it that way at all. I agree, John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that certainly there was a dark period. Perhaps I shouldn’t be sweeping the dark period under the rug

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as quickly or as emphatically as I am right now. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me, this is a clear sign that the Mac matters. And I mean, this has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got to have been—like this touch bar, which I really need to shut up so we can move on to that. The touch bar has got

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be an unbelievably cool piece of technology, and touch ID as well. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got to have been hard to create and and again touch ID Apparently is being controlled by a mini

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch OS and I can’t imagine getting an arm chip in the way That’s controlling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the touch ID to cooperate and behave nicely with the Intel chip That’s controlling the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rest of the Mac that can’t have been terribly easy that must have been difficult

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do Can they not have a little bit of time to do that?

⏹️ ▶️ John They can if they just release other Macs in between

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and here’s the thing by the way Casey like it’s worth pointing out here There’s this kind of distortion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here that I see a lot in corporate culture, especially in Tim Cook’s Apple that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is indeed a lot of work what they did the team worked really hard on this they did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and They should be commended in some kind of prize ceremony for how hard they worked on a technical level. That’s very impressive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco however, that doesn’t either a absolve them of of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rest of the neglected the Mac line and the neglected this line in the meantime. Like that was clearly bad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco management of the lineup and of the whatever the supply chain, whatever led to these long spans where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these things haven’t updated and whatever is leading to the Mac Pro and Mac Mini and iMac still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not being updated. So it doesn’t absolve that. And also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t get automatic reward just for trying something difficult, just for trying something complicated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and new. it might well be that the Touch Bar might end up being awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We might look back on this time and say, man, we can’t believe what we ever lived without this. This was such a revolution.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, we don’t know that yet. It might and it might not. And that doesn’t absolve them of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other problems. Like, you know, there are some downsides to these new releases which we’ll get to, but one of the biggest ones that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people are upset about is that these cost a lot more than they used to. And that’s not insignificant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, you know, things were taken away. So, you know, certainly like there’s going to be people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are upset because in certain ways they got worse for them and it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco matter like if you if you were buying these things if you were buying like macbook airs in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bulk and you had to have them hit a certain price point and now you can’t do that anymore then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re still selling them well but you know basically like everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has whenever apple releases something new at these days especially but yeah This is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that new. There’s always pluses and minuses, right? There’s like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you move mostly steps forward, but usually a couple steps back or sideways. And in this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco release, there is a lot of cool new stuff. They did get seemingly really impressively

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thin and light. It seems, the battery is still a question mark, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their reported specs are still reasonable. So I assume the battery life won’t be terrible. I assume it’ll be pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if they’re able to achieve this thin and lightness with those battery gains, then that’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s great improvement, right? The touch bar is mostly great. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is probably gonna be bad to lose escape keys for a lot of people. I think the idea

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that only nerds use the escape key I think is wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I think lots of people- But it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey still there, it’s just not, oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco God.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ll get there, we’ll get there. And I think also a lot of people were simply asking Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can you please put modern guts inside your laptops and make them faster and everything. And Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco delivered this thing that they weren’t asking for and then raised the prices. Even if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are impressed by the Touch Bar, and I think for the most part, it probably will end up being a good thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reason why so many people are mad, like people have good reasons to be upset with this update because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not every product that needs an update got one. And the update to these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco products that did get updated came with additional costs and a couple of new downsides.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, what if you actually used the SD card slot or the HDMI port or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like, there are a lot of things were removed too. So you have ports that were removed, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a higher price, and you lost some keys that you might have preferred to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware. So basically, even though it made advances, that doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it invalid or unreasonable for people to complain about the ways in which it got worse for them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, it doesn’t. But I feel like what I’m hearing in it’s not just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from you guys, but you’re the only two on the phone. And so that’s why I’m, you know, busting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your butt so hard is what I feel like I’m hearing as well. What we really wanted was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a new processor, maybe more RAM, maybe more hard drive space, and then don’t touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything else for the love

⏹️ ▶️ John of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey God.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, no, no, no. I mean, I don’t think anyone said like, I think Marco talked around

⏹️ ▶️ John it before, but basically I said it last week if you’re going if you’re gonna have this line of products

⏹️ ▶️ John and I think uh uh who is it who had their web page it listed all of the uh steven

⏹️ ▶️ John hackett the listed all of the the laptops sort of in in order of the lines

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re gonna have all these laptops from like under a thousand all the way up to like big bucks for the big one right and

⏹️ ▶️ John they do have a pretty good spread of prices right if you decide you’re gonna do that and you’re gonna sell one of them with a non-retina

⏹️ ▶️ John display with old guts and old ports and you’re gonna sell some of them with the fancy new ports and the new guts and

⏹️ ▶️ John the whole deal. The way to do it is not to leave

⏹️ ▶️ John ancient computers around and just be like, well, this one’s never going to get USB-C because it’s not worth updating. We’re just going to keep selling

⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook Air forever and ever and ever. We’ll update the guts every once in a while, but it’s never going to be an overhaul.

⏹️ ▶️ John The way with more investment, which I’m not going to say again, I don’t like to say like the old Apple, the old way, because it makes like

⏹️ ▶️ John say in the olden days, like just a question of how much investment. The old way with more investment is

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. You’re going to sell this lot of computers from a thousand bucks to four thousand all of them get

⏹️ ▶️ John some minimum set of new features rolled out together like it’s a it’s a rising tide lifts all boats if you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to keep selling same thing with the 101 macbook which i think is gone now or is it still alive it is finally gone

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway like i said last week if you’re going to sell a super cheap laptop with really low specs with an optical

⏹️ ▶️ John drive you also have to occasionally update that one like you can’t just say we’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to keep selling the old computer unmodified for a long, long time, you should move the line up together, which

⏹️ ▶️ John means you have a gradation of features like the touch bar isn’t going to be on all of them. I understand it’s expensive, right? And same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing with all the other features and all the different things you bring out, they’re not all going to have the P three screen, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But the fact that retina still hasn’t trickled down to lowest end model, because

⏹️ ▶️ John they want to keep selling the old model, like the really, really old crappy one, mostly unmodified with

⏹️ ▶️ John only minor tweaks. That does not speak well to the investment in the product line. It’s better to

⏹️ ▶️ John keep selling the cheaper computer but continue to update them all together

⏹️ ▶️ John in some cadence. They get away with it on the phones because they only do like, you know, last year’s phone and then it kind of trails

⏹️ ▶️ John off at the end. But even there I think it’s a problem. That’s where the strategy came from. But with the Macs, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John how many years has essentially that same, quote unquote, same MacBook Air with different guts

⏹️ ▶️ John been sold? I mean, they even made the point now, which I look at the 13-inch MacBook Pro is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco now,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s now more of an Air than an Air. Isn’t that amazing? And yet we’ll still sell that

⏹️ ▶️ John air because the new MacBook Pro is $500 more expensive. It would be better to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a cheaper, better MacBook Air. I mean, even if they want to keep it non-retina,

⏹️ ▶️ John make

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John better than it is. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco a crappy screen. I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to say, like, I’m trying to give them an out. I’m not saying like every product has to be awesome, but you have to bring the products up together.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can’t have this, these two classes of like, here are the good computers and here are the ones we’ve been selling for years that are

⏹️ ▶️ John pieces of crap. And there’s these weird…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not the case though. What they’re saying is here’s the brand new good computers that quite frankly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey aren’t cheap. And as one of you just said, they’re less cheap now than they used to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be. And then if you want something that’s more affordable, guess what? It’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to be a little older on the inside. It’s like the difference between- But

⏹️ ▶️ John it should be newer than it is because it’s like the pricing doesn’t make sense. It’s like the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. We understand the Mac Pro is an expensive computer, but if you don’t update that the internals for three years, it becomes embarrassing. Now the

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Air’s internals have been updated more than the Mac Pros, we have to give them that, but it’s still basically the same form factor

⏹️ ▶️ John and the internals are pretty old and slowish compared to everything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, I mean, this to me, like this, this is my fundamental,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just friction that I have with the Tim Cook way of running Apple. You know what would take real

⏹️ ▶️ Marco courage? They talk about courage in the head to head stupid headphone jack. What would take real courage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be to take a temporary margin hit to make all of your products great.

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, the iPad Air and the iPad Pros.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, this gap exists everywhere, and it is,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a gap that reflects a level of desired investment, because it’s so much easier to keep selling the old

⏹️ ▶️ John models, or even just bumping the internals of the old models, but that fundamentally changes, like, oh, well, we can

⏹️ ▶️ John bump the internals a little bit, but if we change the USB-C, that’s like a whole new thing, and it requires more investment and

⏹️ ▶️ John all that other stuff. And I don’t want to put value judgments

⏹️ ▶️ John on it and like moral things and be like, Tim Cook doesn’t care. It’s being mean to us. I think it’s just investment. And again, I think the investment

⏹️ ▶️ John is justified by all of the tangible attributes of the Mac line as compared

⏹️ ▶️ John to everything else. Mostly the reason you hear me

⏹️ ▶️ John upset anyway, is because I like the Mac, right? And I from I can argue

⏹️ ▶️ John for why you should do this, not just because I like the Mac, but because here’s why it’s actually important for Apple as a company. I can

⏹️ ▶️ John make that argument too, but personally speaking, it’s because I like this product that’s now getting less investment, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why I find it frustrating. And it didn’t help that they said hello again on the

⏹️ ▶️ John invitation, but as I said last week, I was overhyped.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you’re taking one admittedly quite long data point, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not updating the MacBook Pros effectively for like two or three years. Full stop.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was BS. That was terrible. Shouldn’t have happened. that one data point as a line that says

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the line with a huge downward slope that says Yeah, we don’t care about the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you got the Mac Pro two, you’ve got the Mac Mini, which has always been like that. And we just excuse because it’s always been like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Like, even the iMac has gone through droughts.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just it’s on a good cycle now, right? Even if you just want to pick like things like peripherals and stuff, not making a new extended keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John when they made the new key switches, stuff like that, like it’s, you know, it’s, that’s harder to make an argument for it and then everything

⏹️ ▶️ John else. But anyway, I want to get off this because I think we’re mostly just arguing the two of us arguing

⏹️ ▶️ John with you. And I think the larger the larger like this doesn’t matter to most people.

⏹️ ▶️ John There was the biggest upcry, you know, outcry us on Twitter with some people who expect desktop

⏹️ ▶️ John Max to come, which is, you know, like just because we didn’t expect them to come

⏹️ ▶️ John or definitely didn’t expect them all to be updated or anything doesn’t mean it’s not kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t mean we’re not tired of waiting for them as well. Right. what you saw were people who like

⏹️ ▶️ John desktop Macs complaining there were people don’t like desktop Macs don’t care who cares doesn’t know they don’t even know desktop Macs exist as far

⏹️ ▶️ John as they’re concerned Macs are laptops and they think the MacBook Airs are fine and so on and so forth but we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John you know computer enthusiasts and Mac fans and desktop Mac fans and so of course we’re upset about

⏹️ ▶️ John it it’s separate argument of whether just because we’re upset that the products we like aren’t getting updated

⏹️ ▶️ John does that mean that Apple should update them more often but that explains the upset

⏹️ ▶️ John in this and I think the upset in this is not for the most part of people who are thinking clearly the same

⏹️ ▶️ John as saying Apple should do what I want right because that’s what you’re getting it before

⏹️ ▶️ John we would like it if Apple did something different but you know you should just allow us to be upset that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is not doing what we want and then we can have a separate discussion about whether Apple should do this thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John we want whether it’s good for Apple or good for computing or whatever and that I think I can turn that into

⏹️ ▶️ John a vague segue into what I wanted to get into which is the touch bar. This is where Marco will put an ad or something.

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⏹️ ▶️ John So many years ago, one of my early maybe my first but one of my early articles

⏹️ ▶️ John for macro magazine, the back page article was about

⏹️ ▶️ John this fairly fanciful idea. Again, I have this history to the back page of

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac world and Mac user magazine that made me think of writing something that I probably wouldn’t even write in a blog post today,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I did in a print article back then, about the idea of

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac laptop that you could use as a Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ John but then you could somehow fold it over on itself, kind of like all those convertible, like a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot of convertible PC laptops were like this, remember when they were making all those? I bet they’re still making them, but the one, you could fold it over and it turns

⏹️ ▶️ John into a tablet basically. And when you turn it into a tablet, however you want to do it, twisting the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John and going down or folding it all the way backwards. When it’s in tablet mode, it’s basically an iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ John And when it’s in Mac mode, it’s a Mac. And it was like, well, you know, you’ve already got iOS running on Intel in the

⏹️ ▶️ John simulator. And the conversion would be kind of a neat thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’ve seen lots of PC makers do it. Apple could do a good job on the hinge mechanism and make it very

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting and sturdy and good to use in all these different scenarios. And wouldn’t that be an an interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of computer because that would deal with the dichotomy that was then a hot topic and still

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of a hot topic between IOS and the Mac OS and all this other stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, obviously nothing came of that. Windows continues to sell those convertibles. Windows

⏹️ ▶️ John has converted its OS to be one unified OS for both touch interface and everything else.

⏹️ ▶️ John And again, we might talk about that later on a different show. But setting that aside now

⏹️ ▶️ John that you know the idea that you could run both iOS and what was then OS 10 or Mac OS 10

⏹️ ▶️ John at that time on the same computer because iOS also runs on Intel what

⏹️ ▶️ John we have today with these things as you pointed out Casey is a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John that runs Mac OS on its Intel processor and then off to the side this little t1

⏹️ ▶️ John processor that is presumably arm and presumably run something like iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean again the core OS of both OS 10 and both Mac OS and iOS is Darwin anyway but anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John presumably that little chip is running an OS that’s running the touch bar and doing all this stuff here we have a Mac that is essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John running two OS’s on two different screens the only difference is

⏹️ ▶️ John the tablet mode is just this little skinny strip that goes along the top of the thing and then the Mac part

⏹️ ▶️ John gets the big thing in the top and you look at this and I thought I joked I was teasing Marco about this

⏹️ ▶️ John a couple of shows ago just you wait until the entire keyboard is one big screen for the people who don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John mind typing on glass like look at the evolution of the keyboards on these max going from

⏹️ ▶️ John big honking giant keys that are like on the apple extended to keyboard on the mac portable like big giant mechanical

⏹️ ▶️ John key switch put chunk put chunk put chunk and they just got squished and squished and the plungers became

⏹️ ▶️ John butterfly hinges became dome switches they’ve just the keys have just been descending into the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John becoming like comically thinner and smaller like like they’ve been rolling over by a steamroller year after

⏹️ ▶️ John year. And now all of a sudden, one of the quote unquote keys is a big flat screen that looks like

⏹️ ▶️ John the keys. They did a really good job by the way of like pattern matching them like so it’s the same kind of matte finish on both the screen and

⏹️ ▶️ John the keys. So it looks like it’s a big key. Anyway, and now all of a sudden one of them turns into a screen

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s run by this little processor has an OS and like someone did an animated gift that I retweeted. It was like, next

⏹️ ▶️ John year, the number keys are screen next year, the top row of the QWERTY keyboard is key next year, the next row of

⏹️ ▶️ John keys next year, the next rows of keys, then eventually the whole bottom of the things that is the keys, then eventually the top screen goes away,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you just have an iPad, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like, slowly,

⏹️ ▶️ John slowly making the Nintendo DS dual screen thing, you know, by by converting the

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard, and I’m not saying this is the inevitable direction they’re going to go. But it’s hard to look

⏹️ ▶️ John at that touchpad, or the touch bar. And if this touch bar has any legs at all, as a thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John people might want to do not to see this as like a a weird transitional fossil. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t again, I don’t want to totally get into the Microsoft Surface Studio thing. But like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this weird transition, possibly weird transitional fossil held up against

⏹️ ▶️ John this the Surface Studio, where the whole freaking thing is one giant touch display on by the way,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a keyboard when you need it. One of those looks like they skipped to the end of this evolution. Again,

⏹️ ▶️ John this may be a dead end in evolution. Maybe they’re wrong about this is the you know, the future of computing or whatever. Maybe they’re wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John about the OS, maybe they’re wrong about so many other things. But for one of the first times

⏹️ ▶️ John in recent memory, Apple looks to be making a more cautious bet

⏹️ ▶️ John than than Microsoft, at least in this particular scenario. And that’s not necessarily bad, because I think

⏹️ ▶️ John the cautious bet like the odds, I think the odds of the touch bar being interesting and useful are higher than

⏹️ ▶️ John the odds of the surface studio being a runaway smash hit that saves Microsoft, right or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John is like it’s safer. I think it has a higher chance of success. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John I look at that touch bar and it’s hard not to start thinking about putting

⏹️ ▶️ John screens for the keyboard. Why is the touchpad the trackpad not entirely a screen? The keyboard is not a screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John but is, as Marker would say, getting progressively worse as a keyboard, but as other people might say, getting

⏹️ ▶️ John progressively less keyboardy because people don’t care about keyboards anymore. And when I just make the whole thing a screen and then when you

⏹️ ▶️ John do that, why do you have two screens? Why don’t you make one screen and you’ve just reinvented the iPad again, with a different OS but now

⏹️ ▶️ John you know so I think this is all this seems like it’s all eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John going to come to a head and I think we’ll look back at this and be able to see the progression but right now the

⏹️ ▶️ John progression that we can see from the past is the keys are getting flatter

⏹️ ▶️ John the things are getting thinner and now the limitations of keys have gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John to the point where they’re bringing some screens down into that area and I’m not quite sure where this will end but

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple looks like the more the more iterative, let’s say. I don’t want to say cautious or careful, because this is an

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting move, but it’s definitely more iterative than sort of leapfrogging than

⏹️ ▶️ John than we’re used to, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think it’s I don’t want to really turn this into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Surface Studio discussion, but it is a fascinating. I don’t know if case

⏹️ ▶️ Casey study is the right way of looking at it, but it’s fascinating to see Microsoft just tripling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down on this hybrid OS idea, which to me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seems utterly preposterous. And I actually have installed Windows 10 on my work laptop because I’ve been doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little C sharp API work. Uh, and I got to tell you, I was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey expecting Windows 10 to be really good because everyone I know that has run it has said, oh, it’s great. It’s, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot better. They fixed a lot of the problems. It’s really good. And I could go on for hours about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how awful I found Windows 10 to be. And in no small part, because high DPI

⏹️ ▶️ Casey support is a joke at best and non-existent at worst. Um, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that being said, all of a sudden with the Surface Studio, I sort of understand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what Microsoft is going for with this hybrid world where touch is, is touch and non-touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey OSs are one in the same. I think that that is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Surface Studio is kind of the ultimate realization that it’s to some degree kind of a naked robotic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whore of Microsoft strategy that let’s make a machine with this huge what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is it’s a 27 inch monitor I believe something like that it doesn’t matter a huge monitor 28 inch I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay and I believe it’s taller right because it’s a different aspect ratio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John than what we ask

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for is 3 by 2 yeah which I would love honestly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so let’s make this very large you know, kind of contrary device

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where it’s not widescreen like everything else in the market is, and let’s make it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey touch sensitive everywhere. And that is kind of the ultimate realization of Microsoft’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey strategy. And although I would give almost anything not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to run Windows, I can understand why this would be appealing. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think I would ever want to have a computer that is a drafting table, so to speak, I can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see how it’d be really, really cool. Similarly, I think this touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is kind of the ultimate realization of what Apple thinks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the best idea for a quote unquote hybrid world, which is not as much that the screen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a touch screen, but more, hey, we’ll give you a little separate touch screen that you can interact

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with and you can do cool stuff with. And by the way, it’s more than just buttons. Like when we had seen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the preview or the renderings for this, I don’t recall anyway, having

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seen that there was going to be anything on here really, but a bunch of just programmable buttons, if you will,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and there’s all sorts of cool stuff that they show on this. They show timelines and like Final Cut Pro, or maybe it was a different app.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They showed, um, kind of a CoverFlow version of all the pictures that are in a folder

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when you’re looking in Finder. Like there’s some really trick cool stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CoverFlow will never die.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Was it CoverFlow? I

⏹️ ▶️ John forgot. but we always knew it was well the rumors were all an OLED screen so we kind of knew that there

⏹️ ▶️ John was gonna be other stuff up there but like I go back to what you said earlier Casey I think the key phrase that

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think is apt here is ultimate realization because this is not the ultimate realization of anything this is an iterative

⏹️ ▶️ John improvement and I think it’s good and I think it’s gonna be really cool but it’s almost as

⏹️ ▶️ John if the more cool this is the more we will realize that limiting it to just a little

⏹️ ▶️ John strip is bad and that you know, like, why is the whole

⏹️ ▶️ John trackpad not a screen? Why is the whole bottom of the laptop on a screen? Why is the whole keyboard not a screen? And this is the point we’ll say, well, the

⏹️ ▶️ John whole keyboard is not a screen because typing on glass is terrible. And then millions of millennials say no, we love it. It’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, and then it’s like, and then once you do that, it’s like, well, then why is there a bottom screen and a top screen? Why is it

⏹️ ▶️ John all one screen and then you just like, it really feels it’s not the ultimate realization of anything, the ultimate realization,

⏹️ ▶️ John if this idea turns out to be good, of this computing idea, not this laptop idea. But this computing

⏹️ ▶️ John idea, using like the value system that is most in line with probably

⏹️ ▶️ John mine and Marcos is the server studio, which is just make the whole freaking

⏹️ ▶️ John thing a big, giant, gorgeous touchscreen, but also give me a physical keyboard for when I want to type because I’m old and I like to

⏹️ ▶️ John have on physical keyboards. And when I’m not typing, I don’t have to deal with that. And there’s no like,

⏹️ ▶️ John separate region of the keyboard, that’s also a screen and I can use seven, seven hands and 10 fingers

⏹️ ▶️ John and five elbows all at the same time with a little dial and like just you know, that is the ultimate realization of

⏹️ ▶️ John ideas that a good idea does it work well as the OS good are there other intangibles that are stopping them again, I think we

⏹️ ▶️ John do have to talk about the surface studio at some point, but the touch bar is not the ultimate realization of any

⏹️ ▶️ John idea. It is the next good iterative step along the lines

⏹️ ▶️ John of the idea that Apple is pursuing. And I think it looks really cool and really awesome with some minor caveats.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it feels it feels like just one more step and it kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s transitional enough that it makes me feel not uncomfortable but like anticipatory like i like i’m

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m waiting to see what’s next it’s tantalizing in the like where does this all go where does this lead

⏹️ ▶️ John because clearly this is not going to be the end this is clearly on its way to something and

⏹️ ▶️ John uh you know it’s like it’s like a glimpse of the future that is not yet here right uh the keyboard’s getting

⏹️ ▶️ John flatter we shoved a screen on it but it’s still kind of if you squint at this thing it’s still kind of the shape of the old

⏹️ ▶️ John computer and certainly the shape of Mac OS is still as separate from iOS as it ever was.

⏹️ ▶️ John And we don’t, I don’t know where it’s going, but this is like, I feel like this is the first step off

⏹️ ▶️ John of the path that the Mac has been going on to an acknowledgement that there can

⏹️ ▶️ John be that, not that they’re, you know, merging the OS’s or whatever, but just

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to reconcile this world where we want to touch stuff and have touchscreen things

⏹️ ▶️ John with the world of the Mac where we’re not touching things, right? And how do we we bring them together? And this is honestly, this is the

⏹️ ▶️ John first Mac with a touch screen, right? No other Mac has had a screen that you touch. They’ve had

⏹️ ▶️ John touch pads and they’ve had all the other hybrid things. Hey, we want to touch screen Mac. You got one. Oh, by the way, the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John is really thin. And that just makes me think, like, where is this going? What is the future of this? Like, surely this

⏹️ ▶️ John is not a holding power that we stand for another 15 years with a little strip on the screen there. This has

⏹️ ▶️ John to lead to something. And I’m excited to see where that goes. But this this machine makes me

⏹️ ▶️ John like hunger to see what’s next.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, quick aside about the surface studio from everything I can tell it’s using the exact same processors as the iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it isn’t out for another two months.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, that’s not a super like that that machine. It’s separate topic, Nintendo Switch also sorry if you’re here to

⏹️ ▶️ John hear about Nintendo Switch probably not this week, Nintendo Switch, Microsoft Surface Studio, they’re on the list,

⏹️ ▶️ John we will talk about them. Alright, so now you said nice things about touchpad a few minor

⏹️ ▶️ John annoying things about the touchpad. Well, Now one fun thing about it, the customized thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John pure Apple feature, love that you can drag the little thing off the screen onto the onto the touch bar. That’s awesome, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s like another one of those magical type of things. And they did when you’re in editing mode, where you want to

⏹️ ▶️ John edit the buttons to customize it, it’s good that that’s a feature because customizing is great.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they go into shaky mode, you know, like an iOS, right when you you know, when you’re editing your your springboard

⏹️ ▶️ John icons, that’s that’s kind of like a UI idiom that Apple has coined and then now they use

⏹️ ▶️ John across their product line to great effect when when these things are in the mode where they’re being edited have

⏹️ ▶️ John them wiggle so it’s clear that you’re in like editing mode and all the rules are different that’s very clever very good bit

⏹️ ▶️ John of UI that they’ve been smart to spread everywhere but the tricky bit on the little strip

⏹️ ▶️ John the touch bar screen is that they’re using edge to edge every single pixel of that thing

⏹️ ▶️ John to show the buttons because it’s such a skinny screen like they’re going all the way up from the top edge there’s no margins they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John leaving on it so they can’t have the icons shake back and forth as if they’re rotating like the

⏹️ ▶️ John springboard

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco icons do

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey because they would be… I

⏹️ ▶️ John thought they did. No, because they would be because they would be clipped on the top and bottom and you would be

⏹️ ▶️ John it would break the illusion that they’re keys when you saw them clipped by the screen edges so instead they they

⏹️ ▶️ John they shake but only left and right.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh is that right? Okay, that’s what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking. So they’re in there and they’re wiggling and you don’t know like something a little off of it but they’re basically like jostling up against each other like a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of like you know peas in a pod or whatever but they can’t wiggle up and down because the clipping which I thought was a

⏹️ ▶️ John really clever way to solve that problem because the problem is like we want to use every pixel of This thing but when we make them

⏹️ ▶️ John shake the other way they clip top and bottom and it destroys the illusion So just make them shake side to side I thought that was

⏹️ ▶️ John super clever and adorable and they look cute when they do that and that’s a great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feature But and it’s the same trick they use on the watch display too is like on the watch and this is one of the things You could do with OLED like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the reasons I look so great Is that like black on OLED looks really black and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can? more easily conceal the edges of the actual screen, like the actual

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pixels of the screen, with the black margin around it. So on the watch, interface elements go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right up to the edge. Like they tell you specifically in the interface guidelines like you should design your screens that way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t leave any margin around your interface, go right to the edges. And then on the watch’s physical hardware,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they just leave enough of a margin around the screen to make that look right. And so they’re doing the same thing on the touch bar here,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is one of the many parallels it has to the watch. Because it appears to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco run a variant of watch OS and it’s running on on what appears to be a variant of the watches s1

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chip

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s totally different. There’s a t there instead of an s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally different right right and the w1 is different. Yes anyway So yeah, it’s a similar move there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s it’s a genius move like you know just We don’t need the screen to be any bigger than this because the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buttons are gonna be that big so just make it look like The screen has a healthy margin and don’t waste any pixels and power on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything. That’s not you know necessary

⏹️ ▶️ John So margins give us and margins taketh away. Let us now discuss the escape button.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco By the

⏹️ ▶️ John way, all the people like I didn’t want to respond to all this on Twitter for the past week because it seemed tiring, but now I’m going to do it

⏹️ ▶️ John in the podcast. The point that we made either on the show last week

⏹️ ▶️ John or on Twitter about the escape key was all about the fact of it being a physical key. None of us

⏹️ ▶️ John on this show were saying that there was not going to be a little gray square with the letters ESC ended

⏹️ ▶️ John in the upper left corner of that little screen. Well, almost the upper left corner yes yes i’m getting to that

⏹️ ▶️ John we all knew it was we all knew it would be there it’s just we were we were asking for a key because in

⏹️ ▶️ John our line of work it is a key that we hit more often than probably the average person and it’s nice to be able to reach up and feel for it

⏹️ ▶️ John and so on and so forth so that was it it was not about like people were saying when they showed the key look there’s an escape key

⏹️ ▶️ John you got your escape it’s like it’s not a key it’s just a picture on a screen and we knew that was going to be

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco there

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway it’s an escape zone yes as for margins the escape zone,

⏹️ ▶️ John the escape zone on the touch bar, does, is not in the corner. So

⏹️ ▶️ John if we want to, it’s like, well, okay, so it’s not a physical button, but it’s still on the corner, and you can reach for and feel the corner

⏹️ ▶️ John of the screen, right? Unfortunately, if you touch just the corner of the screen, you won’t

⏹️ ▶️ John hit the escape button, because that first centimeter or so of the touch bar is as far

⏹️ ▶️ John as I’m able to determine completely inert. I know it doesn’t have a screen underneath I’m pretty sure it

⏹️ ▶️ John also doesn’t have touch sensors underneath it although I see those things things aren’t necessarily connected They could have put touch sensors under there,

⏹️ ▶️ John but no screen anyway No screen is under there, so they can’t physically draw the escape button

⏹️ ▶️ John against the left edge of the touch bar And I’m pretty sure you can’t touch there Which

⏹️ ▶️ John makes it kind of a shame because if you’re feeling for something to like reach out into the corner

⏹️ ▶️ John to find that thing It’s the one part you can feel for on a completely smooth like touch bar screen

⏹️ ▶️ John as you can feel for the top edges and the sides. So I would love to be able to reach up to that corner and hit the escape zone

⏹️ ▶️ John on the screen. Yes, but it looks like I will have to hit the zone slightly over

⏹️ ▶️ John to the right from the escape zone. And I’m not particularly happy

⏹️ ▶️ John about that because it’s like snatching defeat from the draws of victory because you had like the one button I care about this being replaced

⏹️ ▶️ John by a virtual button, the one I hit the most often. At least it’s in the corner and I’ll be able to feel for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But now I can’t feel for it. By the way, I’m probably getting one of these at work which is why I’m more invested in this at this point

⏹️ ▶️ John and as I snarkily tweeted earlier can we all guess why the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t go all the way to the edge on the left side why doesn’t the screen extend underneath that little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit so on the opposite side is the touch ID sensor that’s the same width

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the margin on the left side

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting exactly the same way there is it just close

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s exactly the same I haven’t I I haven’t verified that

⏹️ ▶️ John though. Yes, I think it is. I think you’re right. It is exactly the same. Who do I know who likes margins

⏹️ ▶️ John to be exactly the same width on the right and left sides of things that they design?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know. I mean, maybe it might be the same person who put the camera shutter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash volume up button directly opposite of the turn off the screen and go to sleep button on the iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ John Offsetting those wouldn’t have helped that much. But anyway, if you squint at this laptop, you see this is still a 15 inch

⏹️ ▶️ John laptop with a tiny keyboard crammed in there. And I know you want to have room for the speakers. And I know so on

⏹️ ▶️ John so forth. All I’m saying is that keyboard could be bigger on the 15 inch model, but they want to be uniform. Same thing with the inverted

⏹️ ▶️ John T, you get a full size arrow keys if you didn’t want to have a perfect rectangle. Johnny I’ve and the Apple designers like symmetry.

⏹️ ▶️ John I like symmetry. I like things to be uniform and centered and everything. But everyone has

⏹️ ▶️ John their limits.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey And this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the touch ID being in the gap on the right. I know it has to be there. That’s fine. What I would

⏹️ ▶️ John have chosen if I was designing this is that the screen would go to the edge On the left side, even

⏹️ ▶️ John though it’s not symmetrical. That’s the choice I would have made. Apple made a different choice. All they

⏹️ ▶️ John have opened the door for is the ability to sell lefties model of this.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco With the Touch ID on the left. Do you want a

⏹️ ▶️ John lefty or a righty? 15 inch MacBook Pro. Oh, I want Touch ID on the left. Anyway, it’s mostly silly. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it will probably be fine. But it is another maddening case of,

⏹️ ▶️ John some people would say it’s form over function. I think that’s a little far. I think I’ll probably still

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to find that escape key. arrow keys bother me more than this but

⏹️ ▶️ John boy I I am I am on a slightly different page than Apple’s designers when it comes to symmetry

⏹️ ▶️ John and ergonomics

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well and also like you will probably be able to find it but you will probably have to look more often

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and and we don’t know yet like in practice how often this would be a problem with all the buttons on the touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I would say for the most part I think most people who use Macs like on Windows Windows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco assigns all sorts of like frequent shortcuts to the F keys like it does is the only way to Windows still Alt F4?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Windows people might use those more often. Mac people, for the most part, you’re not very heavily using almost anything in that function

⏹️ ▶️ Marco row. Except the escape key. Where many people, and you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we as geeks, we often minimize or diminish or underestimate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everyone else who’s not a computer geek and their ability to use our computers that we think are ours.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even there, I slipped into right… Anyway, sorry about that. Other people People who are not geeks,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many of them know that the escape key often performs a cancel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shortcut to lots of things in the OS. Full screen things, dialogues,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, there’s so many things in using a computer where the escape key

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a useful shortcut for literally escape, like cancel or escape what I’m doing, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And normal people, in quotes, many of them know that. This is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a thing that only people who use Vim use. A lot of people know this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this is not just a thing that annoys geeks. The loss

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a hardware escape key that you can hit without looking, because we’ve all been taught

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to type without looking at the keyboard, and the more you use keyboards, the more you get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into the habit of not looking at them. The lack of the hardware escape key is actually going to inconvenience a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of people. It is not just nerds. It might be worth it. The whole rest of the benefits

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of this thing might end up being worth it in the end, but I don’t like when people minimize this as just a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nerd thing because it really isn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think more nerds don’t look at the keyboards than regular people, but I know a lot of people if I gave this computer

⏹️ ▶️ John to would be annoyed by the fact that the escape is not a button, but even if they’re looking at the keyboard the whole time.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m willing to say that the benefit totally outweighs it because the features that are available on this thing are just

⏹️ ▶️ John fantastically better than a row of keys, and I’m all on board with that. like I said, like the one,

⏹️ ▶️ John the one button that you can feel for if touch IDs in the right, the left corner is the easiest place and I think

⏹️ ▶️ John defined. And if the touch region extended all the way to the left, that would be that would make it almost as easy to

⏹️ ▶️ John hit because it’s not like you’re typing the escape key every once in a while you’re hitting it if you’re a normal person, you’re not, it’s not like the

⏹️ ▶️ John E key where you’re constantly typing it. So the fact that it’s not a button wouldn’t be like, Oh, it feels weird when it’s not a button, it would be fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John If it was over to left more. By the way, the second most frequently used button in that top row for me on on my Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John extended keyboard at work. Can anyone guess what it is? Play, pause? Volume. No, it’s the eject

⏹️ ▶️ John button. And I don’t hit it on purpose. I hit it accidentally when I tried to hit backspace. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the CD tray of a Mac Pro comes sticking out like a giant tongue. And why do I accidentally hit the eject button when

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m hitting backspace? Well, I’m not a great typist, but why do I accidentally hit the button? Because the top

⏹️ ▶️ John row of keys is jammed right up against the number row in the backspace keys. You know why? Because there’s just not

⏹️ ▶️ John enough room on my giant expansive desk put an extra five millimeters between those two rows of keys.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even Microsoft has lost the technology of separate sets of keys. Remember the original Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John ergonomic keyboard? It had the two halves of the keys and then had a space and then it had the function keys

⏹️ ▶️ John and then it had a space and it had the inverted T then it had a space then it had the numpad look at the one that they just introduced

⏹️ ▶️ John recently. Yeah and then your mouse is in New Jersey. I know but I’m just saying like you can solve that problem

⏹️ ▶️ John by getting rid of the numeric keybed or whatever. I’m not asking for seven inches of space between these regions

⏹️ ▶️ John right but if you look at the new Microsoft ergonomic keyboard they copied Apple down to the

⏹️ ▶️ John half-size function keys that are jammed up against the numbers it’s like vertical and they have a huge

⏹️ ▶️ John wrist rest on this thing it’s like a seven inch wrist rest and yet they couldn’t spare five millimeters to put

⏹️ ▶️ John a space between the top row function keys and they couldn’t make the top row function keys full-size like do you

⏹️ ▶️ John think we have room on our desk or do you not think we have room on our desk because this keyboard is huge but all your keys are

⏹️ ▶️ John jammed together and the numeric keypads jammed against it and home end and page up page down are jammed together

⏹️ ▶️ John like I don’t know who’s designing these things or what they think is going on but like spaces between different sets of keys

⏹️ ▶️ John are a feature being able to feel for the top edge of the backspace key is a feature I hate hitting that freaking eject

⏹️ ▶️ John button and seeing my CD tray eject and I can hit it without even looking to push it back in once I hear the mechanism start

⏹️ ▶️ John going because there’s a delay like oh I did it again I have to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey think hold on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait can you I don’t understand what you just said you said something about a tray in a in a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John in a white.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I know it’s hard to understand. It’s his cup holder, Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, the cup holder. Oh, yeah. I miss having one of those. Man, that that man, that’s a long time ago.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I would say again on a laptop, could you fit a keyboard on the 15 inch MacBook Pro that has a space between

⏹️ ▶️ John the number keys and the little strip thing? Maybe you would want to in this new scenario because it’s like a screen and you want it to be able

⏹️ ▶️ John to reach a vote every day for traditional keyboards. I think the space is important. I think having half size keys

⏹️ ▶️ John up there is dumb. I think you know, the little strip thing is not the full height of a

⏹️ ▶️ John keys. Why not make that little strip be taller than it is maybe it’s just the right height for the proportions

⏹️ ▶️ John they wanted for the features but a lot of times they show like in the Photoshop demo they were showing the history of the images but the images

⏹️ ▶️ John were either they were either cropped or squished because if you throw them if you show them proportionally

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll be really small so you want to show more of it but you only have width to expand in like why isn’t the touch

⏹️ ▶️ John bar the height of a full height key right that’s enough is just because the keys that it’s replacing

⏹️ ▶️ John were half height? Like, maybe it’s a cost concern, maybe it’s a power concern, I’m not entirely sure. But

⏹️ ▶️ John lots of decisions flow out of this that I don’t quite understand. But as far as keys go, I liked it better when I had full size

⏹️ ▶️ John keys with different regions separated from each other, especially on a gigantic, expansive desktop

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard.

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Let’s keep talking about the Mac

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco If I had to summarize the releases today, I am on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the good side. Overall, this was good. As I said earlier, this is not come with…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t all roses. There are some bitter pills to swallow here. But overall,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this was good. And I’m really happy that they are still doing things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the Touch Bar. bar even even though like I will probably not use one for quite some time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco primarily because I get all I worked on the desktop like and and as I mentioned earlier I don’t expect this to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco come to desktops anytime soon if ever and and so this this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco particular thing will probably not impact me day-to-day for a while if ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but they did make their laptops better faster newer designs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinner lighter. Like overall, this was a really good day for Mac laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was just not a day for Mac desktops or for anybody who cares about money,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John people. I had some lighter things on the touch bar before I move on from

⏹️ ▶️ John that topic. Sure. These are all credited to people on Twitter. So I was talking about the, you know, when

⏹️ ▶️ John I was doing my cranky tweets about the symmetrical space on the sides of the touch bar, like asking,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, can anyone guess why that space is like I posted a picture from the Apple human interface guidelines that

⏹️ ▶️ John emphasizes the fact that the margins are identical on both sides of it as a hint to the people who aren’t listening to the show.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Dave Lehman had a good answer as to why the escape key is not up against left margin. That’s the space

⏹️ ▶️ John taken up by the headphone jack. Oh, you couldn’t put the headphone jack, but we had, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, we had to, we had to fit it in. And you know, that’s the headphone jack is right under there. And then I

⏹️ ▶️ John also tweeted that we should start the countdown to touch bar games. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if because it’s the Mac, and we don’t have to send things to the Mac app star, and this thing does have an API,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can make a touch bar game, I’m sure of some fashion, how responsive it can be. I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ John because I don’t it’s not like you’re, you know, I think it is out to remove with a separate t one chip over there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it would be fun to try to hack that to do something cool. And here are the best entries for potential touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ John games. Richard Gale suggested punch the monkey, which is a joke that only people who are on the internet in the 90s will get

⏹️ ▶️ John because that was a banner ad with the monkey and he moved mostly horizontally because there wasn’t much room for him to go. So punch the monkey

⏹️ ▶️ John is the right thing. And Benjamin Glucon wins the idea for a touch bar game,

⏹️ ▶️ John which he calls really boring snake. Snake, by the way, for all

⏹️ ▶️ John of her younger people is a game that was popular on cell phones back when the only games they could play was having any

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t explain snake if you don’t get the joke. Trust me, it’s very funny

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was called nibble in Q basic back in the day

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mm-hmm

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I remember

⏹️ ▶️ John really boring snake you should copyright it capital R capital B capital s TM

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s again that you can make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco honestly the the gaming things might be I saw James Thompson of pcalc fame

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talking earlier about the he was just starting to SDK awesome news that there appear there appears to be a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco simulator for building apps for it so you don’t need to have the hardware yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it It also appears that you only have access to it when your app is active. So if you were to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a touch bar game, you might have to always have a window on screen that the user keeps active for your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game to keep showing up in the touch

⏹️ ▶️ John bar. Yeah, I know. Again, it’s a Mac. You’ll see what kind of hacks people can do to it. But like and

⏹️ ▶️ John you mentioned before that the addressable market for touch bar things is going to be small. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John that would be more of a problem if the touch bar wasn’t so damn cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah. And it probably seems like and it’s also seems like it’s easy to do something down there. just

⏹️ ▶️ John so cool. And it’s in the simulator. And I expect to see a lot of applications doing

⏹️ ▶️ John possibly inadvisable things with the touch bar. But it’s just to have another place on,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, to have a place next to the keyboard that’s configurable that you can do stuff in, it will be exciting for

⏹️ ▶️ John developers to just try something, especially if it’s fairly straightforward to implement, it seems like the classes they have

⏹️ ▶️ John for this type of stuff, the NS scrubber and all the stuff in the whole API seems pretty well thought out and well designed.

⏹️ ▶️ John It won’t be that hard to get something up there, even if it’s just a bunch of buttons and stuff. And the Apple apps are

⏹️ ▶️ John really showing the way with like, we’re not just putting a bunch of configurable buttons like Casey, you know, Casey was saying before, like, oh, just a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of buttons that change based on the context. They’ve got, you know, I mean, it’s obviously lots of horizontal stuff, but timelines,

⏹️ ▶️ John thumbnails, lots of interfaces, it seemed pretty responsive in that you could do things on this

⏹️ ▶️ John little, tiny iOS control computer that would cause changes on the big Mac computer

⏹️ ▶️ John a couple inches away in a fairly responsive fashion, making it so that you can do things without

⏹️ ▶️ John taking your hands off the keyboard or you know doing things two hands at once with one on the touch part one on the trackpad

⏹️ ▶️ John I found that demonstration pretty compelling and I think even though such a small number

⏹️ ▶️ John of people relative to the rest of the Mac user base are going to have this developers will add this feature because it’s cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love the idea of this like amazing like high-end dual

⏹️ ▶️ Marco core supercomputer sitting there mostly idle as you play a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game on this little 30 pixel tall strip. The whole screen’s like there lit up,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole computer’s on doing nothing while you sit there playing the game on this little watch processor’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little skinny

⏹️ ▶️ John screen. It could be an inversion of like the top part will be just like

⏹️ ▶️ John the status display that shows your inventory

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and the whole game will take place on a little

⏹️ ▶️ John strip on the bottom. Lots of infinite runners are potentially good. Again, I don’t know how much

⏹️ ▶️ John control you have in there, but because it is a little computer doing that, I wonder if you can somehow get code onto

⏹️ ▶️ John it for it to run. I’m not sure what the whole deal is. It seems to be communicating add or remove from the

⏹️ ▶️ John rest of the Mac system, but there is code running there to run the display. And if you can get your code

⏹️ ▶️ John onto the T1 or onto whatever the T1 does and get it run to run from there, that

⏹️ ▶️ John will be where you’re you’re fine. At the very least, you should probably be able to do pong or something, right? Or or really boring snake.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I will link to the other thing for the touch bar is there’s already Apple human interface guidelines for it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John briefly looked at them and I remember reading it. I’m like, oh, this all seems sensible and good ideas. But one of the

⏹️ ▶️ John items made me think that Apple had actually done a demo that was counter to it. Let me just see if I can find out about like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, well, that’s, that’s not new. Yeah. Yeah. Apple doesn’t always follow the Higgins following

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the end. The Higg is not a, a Bible that has to be followed to the letter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Uh, it’s, oh no, they didn’t. Uh, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John The one that was confusing me there, there within the bounds of the thing is like avoid mirroring the touch bar interactions on the main screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they mean that the example they give if the user taps a button on the touch bar and presented with elicit options don’t also

⏹️ ▶️ John present those same options on the main screen. What they demoed was, for example, in photos, when you’re messing with like the exposure slider,

⏹️ ▶️ John they rather than just you messing with the exposure slider on the touch bar and seeing the exposure

⏹️ ▶️ John change on the full screen image, when you go into edit mode, the photos app also goes into edit mode. And

⏹️ ▶️ John when you drag the exposure slider, the exposure slider is visible on the main screen as well. And it drags in,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the same time as you’re dragging your thing. Now, that’s arguably not the same as presenting

⏹️ ▶️ John elicit options in both places, but it isn’t kind of mirroring the controls like look, am I am I changing the exposure in the sidebar

⏹️ ▶️ John photos or am I changing the exposure on the on the touch bar? It’s kind of weird to

⏹️ ▶️ John have it in both places like the advantage should be as they showed in a couple other demos. If I’m using the touch

⏹️ ▶️ John bar, that means those controls don’t have to be on the screen. Like that’s the whole point of the touch bar. I have them down here. So more of

⏹️ ▶️ John the screen can be used to show me the content. But maybe just because photos hasn’t been updated to do that. And the only way to

⏹️ ▶️ John be in edit mode is to have that view visible. I don’t know. But anyway, well, we’ll put this link in

⏹️ ▶️ John and you can check it out. It’s short. It’s one page. And it’s an interesting insight into how Apple expects the touch bar

⏹️ ▶️ John to be used by developers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Anything else

⏹️ ▶️ John worth talking about? Next, we haven’t even talked about the max ram 16 gigs, Mac ram on a 4000 dollar

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco notebook. Yeah, that’s unfortunate.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve got to say no on that one. Like 16 gigs, you know, Standard on the 15-inch fine. I

⏹️ ▶️ John can almost kind of forgive 8 gigs on the 13s Maybe maybe not but the 13 Pro is increasingly

⏹️ ▶️ John less Pro. We haven’t even talked about that but uh 16 gigs max on the big one

⏹️ ▶️ John not not a good choice not a good choice at all Especially since it’s such a powerful machine

⏹️ ▶️ John compared to the previous one like to have the same max RAM limit If you’re gonna run any VMs Those are

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna eat up your memory and if you’re gonna be doing all these fancy things that you can do on this this new computer

⏹️ ▶️ John with high-res images and video 16 gigs of ram max is not great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well I mean look let’s be honest here I mean like I see people on Twitter and stuff complaining like how could a pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco machine not have this or have this or whatever else Apple’s use of the word pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is primarily about size and price target it does not have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do with whether professionals whatever that means however you define that are able to use this computer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for what they need or whether it’s designed for them or not. Pro means it’s the big expensive one,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco period. So the fact that pros often need more than 16 gigs of RAM

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does not seem to enter Apple’s thoughts about whether to make that option available or not

⏹️ ▶️ John here. I think it entered into their thoughts they just would need more battery to do it probably and that’s where the sticking

⏹️ ▶️ John point was, I’m assuming.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean RAM does use battery power and not a small amount of it, but compared to everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco else in there. I mean, the 15-inch has a 45-watt CPU next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a 35-watt GPU. And by the way, one of the things that makes me sad about the new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 15-inch is that I was always a fan of buying the low-end 15-inch configuration

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that only had the Intel integrated GPU. That option has been available now for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite some time, I think since around 2010 or so, where it used to be… First, it was just always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco discrete, and then eventually they had these dual GPU models around 2008, 2009 or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that, where they would have this one, they had the high power discrete GPU, and they would also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the Intel integrated GPU. And then it would switch between them based on you know, whether

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything was running that needed the more power of the big one. And and the switching, you know, not only not only does having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two GPUs and having a high powered one there in the first place, not only does that raise the power requirement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when that GPU is active, and it raises the ceiling of how high the power consumption can get if it’s under load.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But also there were often bugs switching between those two GPUs. That’s not an easy task

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the Mac switching between them would often have weird issues. And there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco visual glitches, both GPUs staying active and using too much power, occasionally even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco blue screens. Also the other problem is that having another big hot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chip on the logic board will actually significantly raises the failure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rates. And many people, and I think there have even been class actions against this and extended service programs and everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where often a 15-inch MacBook Pro will have a big problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the GPU failing after a certain amount of time because there’s just the additional heat and stress on the board and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like there were big problems with NVIDIA back in the day. And these problems, I don’t know if there’s any recent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones, but it’s basically, there’s enough of a downside to having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the discrete GPU in the 15-inch, both in battery, in heat, in possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bugs, and in possible failures down the road, that I’ve always favored the option because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m neither a gamer, nor do I use external monitors with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my 15 inches, like I just use it as itself when I do use it. I’ve always been a fan

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of buying the Intel-only GPU version. And for whatever reason, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco option is gone now. Now you can only buy it with the AMD one. And somebody on Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco told me earlier, I don’t know if this is true or not, somebody said that the newest version of the Intel integrated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco GPU that would be in this is actually slower than the previous one. So that might be the reason. Apple might have a legitimate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reason for getting rid of that option. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what about the fact that it can drive two 5K displays? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John suspect. I was going to mention that. Like there’s some big advantages to this and then you lose

⏹️ ▶️ John the proneness. I think Marco would still want it. He’s like, I don’t need to drive two 5K displays. But I think all these reasons,

⏹️ ▶️ John the one that is common to all of them, both the memory and the GPU is uniformity. If you just have one

⏹️ ▶️ John model, it always comes with 16 gigs, it always comes with the GPU. That’s another cost savings. That’s another resource

⏹️ ▶️ John and investment thing. How many different SKUs do you want to have? How many different varieties do you want to have? The RAM is soldered to the board.

⏹️ ▶️ John If we have one with more RAM, it’s more of a pain. Like do you want to have one with and without discrete

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU? Just do the one with the discrete GPU because the one without, you know, the integrated one is crappy

⏹️ ▶️ John and you can’t drive the monitors and then how do you have four Thunderbolt 3 ports and everything you know so

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a lot of reasons I can think of for for both of these choices but I have more faith in Marco

⏹️ ▶️ John in in the discrete GPU simply because this one is 14 nanometers which has got to help with the heat

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything and I’m hoping that they have mostly worked out the kinks of the GPU switching if they could

⏹️ ▶️ John do it power wise it might be easier just to always use the discrete one that would probably be slaughter your battery

⏹️ ▶️ John but that would be good from a bug perspective. I know a lot of people use, what was that thing called, Margo, the little

⏹️ ▶️ John menu

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco bar thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was a graphics card status by Cody Krieger.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, that’s right. Yeah, there was a utility where you could say, where you could make it use one GPU or the other, and one

⏹️ ▶️ John possible solution to bugs was like, look, plug in your laptop and just make it only use the discrete GPU, and

⏹️ ▶️ John then you don’t have to worry about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but even that was controversial, because even that one, it could force the discrete GPU to be on,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it couldn’t force the discrete GPU to be off. like under certain models, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would tell that utility that it was integrated only,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it would still run the discrete one anyway. And it was, it basically, you could never count

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it to only use the integrated one. You could, as you said, you could count on it to always use discrete, but then you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco losing a lot of battery life and making more heat to get that. Because these GPUs are very complicated.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A GPU in a laptop these days, like a good one, is almost or equally or even more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco complicated and heat demanding and battery demanding than a CPU. So, you know, like that’s a 35 watt GPU

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in there next to a 45 watt CPU. That’s a lot of extra power there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if you don’t need it, and you know, like again, the definition of pro, there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are lots of types of pro work that don’t need GPU power. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have never really needed much GPU power in what I do. I’m a pro, Tiff doesn’t need it, she’s a pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like lots of, John, I bet you don’t need it except for games. But on your work computer, I bet you don’t have it. Or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather, you don’t need a graphics card power. Casey, do you need a good graphics card on your work computer? Or your home

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one for that matter?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, but I think you’re giving a pretty narrow definition of pro. Pro to you is someone who

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does the sorts of things that you or your family do. And there’s a lot of other flavors of pro that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might necessitate that GPU. And since I have the floor, I will say that the only time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I ever had problems with my 2011, my two 2011 MacBook Pros, each of which had discrete GPUs.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The only time I ever had any sort of glitches or issues was when I was running graphics card status. When I was just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using OS X or Mac OS now out of the box, I never had an issue except,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could not agree with you more Marco, that battery life just was slaughtered when the discrete GPU

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was on. Completely agree there. But in terms of like glitches and stuff like that, I never had any of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey those problems as soon as I stopped talking about graphics card status, or since I stopped

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rolling graphics card status.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would always buy, if I had a choice and they had it with me, I would always buy the one with a discrete GPU anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, you’re a gamer.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even with all

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the

⏹️ ▶️ John bugs. And even not just because of the games, just because it’s like, look, if you’re buying the Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John just, it’s gonna be the biggest, the hottest, the, you know, and like I

⏹️ ▶️ John said, I think, I have faith, I like the fact that we’re not in the bad old days where the GPUs used to be done on a

⏹️ ▶️ John worse process than the CPU. This GPU is 14 nanometers. It is on, it is actually the

⏹️ ▶️ John current architecture that AMD is has out right now I think it’s the current one Polaris

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of being like three or four generations behind like the embarrassing it’s not it’s not the super fast as some people are asking me

⏹️ ▶️ John is this like a gaming laptop? No, it is not like this is not this is not the best GPU you can get in a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John by a long stretch of the imagination. But compared to what we had before, like that’s why they could put up those slides. Look, it’s 100%

⏹️ ▶️ John faster. It’s like Yeah, because those ones were ancient. And this one is contemporary

⏹️ ▶️ John middle of the road, you know, probably not as clocked as high, not the best of the best,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, but I like GPUs. I would always buy the one with the big hot GPU. My laptop is going to be plugged in

⏹️ ▶️ John at work all the time anyway. But it’s good for it would be nice, you know, again, options. How many

⏹️ ▶️ John SKUs do you have? How many options do you have? Marko would like one that has a big screen but doesn’t have discrete GPU.

⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t make that product. I think mostly because of uniformity. We make one of these computers, we make one of those,

⏹️ ▶️ John we make

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco one of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco those. But they did until today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I know. Actually, I’m pretty sure they still sell it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, you might be able to still buy the old one, because why would they stop selling it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but I mean, basically, so besides that, though, I mean, ultimately, the 15 looks like an incredible update.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am a little concerned about real-world battery use here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m very, very interested to see the reviews come out and to see people’s experiences with these things as they come out,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because one of the problems that I’ve had recently with a lot of the, as I mentioned before,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of the gains we’ve made battery life recently in probably the last five years at least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has really been in reducing the idle power levels of these chips

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and of computers. It’s basically reducing the amount of power that computers use when you’re using them very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lightly for things like email and web browsing. But as soon as you do anything that really strains them,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like many pro types of applications or running Chrome, then the battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life drops tremendously. You might get 10 hours if you’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco light web browsing, but 4 hours if you’re actually pushing it a little hard, or 2 hours if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re pushing it to the max. And so there’s huge differences in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life under light loads and battery life under moderate to heavy loads. With this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I fear that we’re going more in that direction, just because, you know, just looking at the specs, I mean, you have these big hot chips in there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The one that doesn’t go in this direction that I’m very, very interested in is the new MacBook Escape

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that one I think we need to talk about. So the MacBook Escape, the new 13-inch low-end

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one with the real f-keys, is the one that I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pre-ordered or ordered I guess that it’s going to arrive next week. The reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why is because as far as I can tell, so here’s the weird thing about this computer,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple quotes all three of these new MacBook Pros. The The MacBook Escape, the new 13 with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Touch Bar, and the new 15 with the Touch Bar. They quote all three of them as having 10 hour

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life. And if you look at what hardware is in them, this doesn’t quite make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense. Now the 15, of course, the 15 has a bigger battery. That makes sense, though

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has much more power hungry components in it, but it has a bigger battery. So you can kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see that the 13 with Touch Bar and the 15 with Touch Bar having very different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco components but very different battery sizes can be made to have the same battery life. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook Escape has effectively the MacBook Air guts in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. It has the MacBook Air processor which uses half the power of 13-inch. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has you know no no discrete GPU. So basically compared to the other 13-inch with the Touch Bar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has a processor that uses half the power at max load. It doesn’t have the Touch Bar and whatever power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it takes to drive the Touch Bar and it has 10% larger

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery capacity and it’s quoted at the same battery life. That makes no sense to me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My best guess here is that the 13-inch MacBook Escape gets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantially better battery life than the 13-inch MacBook with Touch Bar but Apple probably didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to trumpet that, that the low-end one gets the best battery life in the whole lineup

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of these new things because that might discourage people from buying the new Touch Bar.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just make it the same thickness from end to end. You

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco can

⏹️ ▶️ John fit

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco more battery in.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they did it, they finally did it. This is a Mac that is not

⏹️ ▶️ John thinner at one end than the other for aesthetic reasons, which means they can fit more battery into it, which means it probably

⏹️ ▶️ John gets really good battery life for the powerful internals. It’s got two ports instead of one. They’re Thunderbolt 3,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? They’re Thunderbolt 3 on that, right? I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey not missing remembering that. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John right. Thunderbolt 3, like this is a hell of a laptop. And it makes me, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s bad for, It’s bad for most people that it’s $500 more expensive, but I feel like it justifies

⏹️ ▶️ John that price by actually having modern technology in it and being the same thickness

⏹️ ▶️ John all the way across and having better battery life. And like, I don’t think I would have gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John the Escape one because I think the touch bar is too compelling. It’s like, look, if you’re gonna buy one, it’s like the iPhone. If you’re gonna buy one,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re gonna get black, you might as well get jet black because that’s the new thing. Yeah. But Marco’s making

⏹️ ▶️ John a bet on the battery life. The specs seem to bear out your theory that it will have better battery

⏹️ ▶️ John life. But don’t you wanna play with a touch bar? What are you gonna do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with this? Well see, here’s exactly the thing. If you are the kind of person,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you listener, if you use your laptop as your primary computer, get the touch bar.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because you’re right, that is the new thing. That might be the future. Apple will wedge it into the future,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether it will be or not, so that will become the future. It’s gonna be great, it’s gonna be awesome, and that’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a new cool thing to use and play with, and to probably improve your productivity, at least sometimes, if not all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So if your laptop is your primary computer, get the Touch Bar.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it’s not my primary computer. My primary computer is my iMac, and hopefully next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year, another Mac Pro. I get all of my work done almost all the time at a desktop.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m not really going to get into the Touch Bar lifestyle. It’s never going to be a thing that really gets itself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into my workflow until I can use it on a desktop, and as I mentioned, that might be never. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now, what I do want out of a laptop is, I would like one that is small

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and light. And by the way, just to put into perspective how small and light these new laptops are,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new 13-inch MacBook Escape and the new 13-inch MacBook are both as light

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the 13-inch MacBook Air always has been. The 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is four pounds now. That is substantially lighter than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 13-inch plastic MacBooks were. Those were, I think, either 5.0 or 5.5. I looked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it up before the show and I forgot. They might have even been 4.5. But regardless,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new 15-inch is lighter than the plastic MacBook was. And that was the small and light computer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of its day. And that day was not that long ago. So that’s impressive.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the reason to not get a 15-inch, if you’re weighing the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pros and cons here, the reason to get a 15-inch or not should not have to do with the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weight by itself. Footprint might matter to you. Cost, of course, is a thing, although the cost difference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once they’re specced up is actually not that big. Kind of embarrassingly so, not that big. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cost is one thing, footprint is one thing, but it’s only four pounds. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 13-inch MacBook Air is three pounds. And so that’s really awesome. Like, that’s a really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lightweight computer for what you’re getting for that price. But anyway, I’m trying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out the MacBook Escape because for me it is not my primary computer. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want something small and light. That’s why I originally bought the MacBook One back when it came out and ended

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up returning because I hated it, but I think this will probably solve the problems I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had with the MacBook One. This will probably be the best computer for me to have in the small and light role.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And in my current needs, I think that will fit me best. And because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not using it that often, and for all of my work, whether it has a touch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bar or not, for me, is not that relevant. But again, for you listener,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re getting one to be your primary computer, you should probably get the touch bar one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because it’ll be cool. Is this the first one they did the giant escape key with, or did they do it on the MacBook one as well? I forget.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I forget. That might have been, was that on the 13 inch Air before that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like the reason they did it, by the way, what we’re talking about is the escape key on the MacBook escape is really wide. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John wider than you would expect a normal key be and I looked at it briefly like why is that so wide just just specifically

⏹️ ▶️ John on this computer because I looked at the old 13 inch MacBook Pro and in the old ones

⏹️ ▶️ John the space between the function row keys and escape there was more

⏹️ ▶️ John space with the between them horizontally than there was between like the letter keys right yeah and so they were

⏹️ ▶️ John more spread out and by spreading them all out then you end up with like uniform normal with keys all along the top there was still

⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit wider than you would have anyway now the keys are all closer together, which means

⏹️ ▶️ John that if you kept the same number of keys in the top row, you’d have this empty space. And so they just made the escape key really

⏹️ ▶️ John why we’re just fine with me like, you know, in fact, it was kind of funny speaking of these keyboards that I hate so much,

⏹️ ▶️ John not because of the key presses, which we’ll talk about in a moment, but because of the key placement, like they spent so long

⏹️ ▶️ John denigrating the function key and being like, you know, who uses function keys is better, like, which I totally sold them. Like, yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John it is much better. This is like the iPhone argument writ small, like it’s better than instead of having fixed hardware keys will

⏹️ ▶️ John have software keys and you can do much more cool things like good thumbs up right? function keys are not they’re right function keys

⏹️ ▶️ John are not used frequently more often people are hitting the quote unquote function keys to change their brightness and their monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John volume or the speaker volume and to pause stuff like that’s what they’re used for all in total agreement

⏹️ ▶️ John then why does the effin key get this place of pride on the portable keyboards right?

⏹️ ▶️ John if it is so infrequently used why are you hogging the good spot on the keyboard with the effin

⏹️ ▶️ John key if people aren’t going to you know and I say this obviously as someone who spends more time

⏹️ ▶️ John than the average person, average Mac user, hitting the Control key because it comes

⏹️ ▶️ John up a lot in programming and Unix-y crap. I would

⏹️ ▶️ John like that to be the Control key down the corner. And I know everyone’s saying, right now if they’re listening, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know you can remap keys if you haven’t remapped cap locks to control like it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John Solaris machine from the 90s. What are you doing with your life? Everyone knows the proper place for control is where the cap

⏹️ ▶️ John locks is. And in a Sierra update recently, OS now lets you remap the escape key to something

⏹️ ▶️ John else. So if you’re real upset about not being able to to have a real key for the escape key you can remap it to whatever you

⏹️ ▶️ John want. There are solutions here but I’m what I’m saying is I’m even more on board

⏹️ ▶️ John than Apple seems to be about the dinosaur nature of the function key. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t use them. I need to be able to type them sometimes, that’s fine, but I don’t use them

⏹️ ▶️ John so much that I would be happy to get rid of the FN key as well or at least move it to a less easily

⏹️ ▶️ John accessible place because the corners that’s a great place on the keyboard to have the corners, right? And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think the FN key deserves that place

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore. Well, I think the reason it’s there is because that’s your gateway to getting the legacy behavior

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the touch bar. Because Federici mentioned on stage that, oh, if you need one of those old keys,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just mash down on the function key and then the touch bar becomes the prior, the FN

⏹️ ▶️ Casey keys, if you

⏹️ ▶️ John will. But nobody uses those, as they were emphasizing, like, who uses function keys? We all use them for the other functions. If you

⏹️ ▶️ John need them back, yeah, you can get them back. It’s fine. But but I don’t think getting them back is such a common operation

⏹️ ▶️ John that deserves the lower left corner.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I mean, yeah, people don’t use F7 a lot, but they do use pause,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I guess those will always be there. Anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Pause, I see what you’re saying, just get, I mean, you have the control strip, though. Even in the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco context-sensitive one, you can still

⏹️ ▶️ John get at those things. It’s a weird, I mean, the main thing that I saw a lot of people tweeting about, which is also true, is if you happen

⏹️ ▶️ John to be a person who goes from either desktop to laptop or goes from dock to laptop with like an Ergonaut

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard or something. Like, it’s weird to have two sets of habits where on basically every keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not a laptop keyboard, lower left is control, again, if you haven’t remapped it and so on and so

⏹️ ▶️ John forth. But when you go on laptops, you have to remember, oh, lower left and over a bit is control. You

⏹️ ▶️ John know, like different habits for different environments. They do so much for the uniformity of the keyboards,

⏹️ ▶️ John and they blow that uniformity on a key that is commonly used by people in my profession, obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John not by regular people. understand this is a this is a minor concern not of concern to most normal people who

⏹️ ▶️ John hit don’t hit the control key or the f-ing key ever I understand this is minor but

⏹️ ▶️ John but like I was like keep keep going like put the f-ing key someplace else that’s even less free or make it a weird

⏹️ ▶️ John key combination or something because regular people can get at that stuff using the control strip

⏹️ ▶️ John expanding it as needed and everyone else you know that can find wherever the

⏹️ ▶️ John hell they move the f-ing key to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well and I do want to nitpick one thing though is is that you keep saying I’ve seen a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say this. Well, that sounds Trumpian. I’ve seen this idea spread around a lot, which is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they didn’t design this for me, or for us, or for you. And this is designed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this way not for your needs, but for everyone else’s needs. Well, again, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you start sanding off groups of users, you’re like, well, this kind of sucks for me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but this wasn’t designed for me. That’s huge chunks of customers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you keep doing that, everything they change or remove or make worse about something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is going to affect some group of customers. And eventually, that adds up. Eventually,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you do that too much, it’s like a design fallacy to design for,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quote, the average or the normal or the mainstream, because everyone has something that’s out of the mainstream that they do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with their computer or their devices. And so the more that Apple focuses

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in sands off the edges and makes things harder or worse for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quote non-mainstream uses. They’re losing potential customers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are making things worse for their existing customers every time they do that. This adds up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is not insignificant.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, speaking of that, though, getting back to the pros, we didn’t talk about this, but I’m happy that there are four

⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt 3 ports on the Big Pro. Like, I mean, obviously, 6 would be better if you’re a port maniac, but

⏹️ ▶️ John for like, you can’t argue with that. Like, every one of those ports has amazing capabilities, which they emphasize and like

⏹️ ▶️ John every one of those can do all sorts of things. And as Casey pointed out, you can direct to 5k displays off your

⏹️ ▶️ John laptop, which is phenomenal. A laptop 5k displays, by the way, that appear not to have GPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John in them from what I’ve been able to determine the magic that they’re doing is like, as we’ve discussed in the past, like, don’t you need to split part 1.3

⏹️ ▶️ John to do this? And these are only display part 1.2? Yes, but they’re doing multi streaming. So it’s like you are connecting

⏹️ ▶️ John two cables, but it’s my understanding at this point is that they are taking two display part 1.2

⏹️ ▶️ John streams using this multi streaming thing or whatever over the Thunderbolt three things, which is why they’re why

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re able to drive even a single five K display off these laptops. The fact that you can drive two off of it is amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then you still have two ports left over both of which you could connect these giant Hydra hub to like, Phil emphasize this,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, Schiller and one of them’s gonna have a power cable in it. Yeah, yeah. All right. So you got one left, but still like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can hook a lot of stuff up to this laptop. And that that feels pro and this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the future that we were all promised. The uniform same kind of very tiny, amazingly

⏹️ ▶️ John capable port, we’re kind of like finally there after so many years of like USB and firewire

⏹️ ▶️ John and Thunderbolt and mini display port and VGA and DVI and ADC

⏹️ ▶️ John and just to be able to finally seeing like the the goalposts the end goal of like

⏹️ ▶️ John just a bunch of little tiny uniform boards, each of which does phenomenal stuff, even if it comes at the cost

⏹️ ▶️ John of magsafe, which we all love so dearly. Even if it comes at the cost of having

⏹️ ▶️ John some dongles or whatever, I want to live in the future where the only port on all of my computers is this tiny little

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that does everything. And I would like there to be a lot of them. And four, I think is a reasonable number for 15 inch computer,

⏹️ ▶️ John five or six would be even better, especially since one is used for power, but I’m willing to go with it. And I mostly give that

⏹️ ▶️ John a thumbs up and two, two on the 13 inch. It’s nice. They didn’t hold the line there and say, well, 13 should only has one

⏹️ ▶️ John having two three would be better than two there I think they’re a little bit one under but I love what I’m saying

⏹️ ▶️ John is I love Thunderbolt 3 I love this future that we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco arrived at doesn’t the the 13 inch with touch bar I think has four because it’s only the only that it’s only the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco escape has two and I think that’s mostly because of the MacBook Air chipset not having enough

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably not enough PCI Express lanes to have more than that if I had to take a guess

⏹️ ▶️ John all right if that’s the case that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasonable also I believe the display that LG display will power the Mac over

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, it’s like it’s a very Apple like solution to a non-existent Apple I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to figure out if the monitor if the monitor has a GPU in or not because as we know we’ve seen these rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John in various sites and our own ITB tipster has been insisting that there exists somehow this 5k external Apple display

⏹️ ▶️ John and In this presentation Apple’s like if you want to use a cool 5k display buy this one from LG that probably

⏹️ ▶️ John uses the same panel as the iMac And it’s awesome and try it and Apple has done this in the past many

⏹️ ▶️ John times when it doesn’t have a product for sale it will direct you to a third party one.

⏹️ ▶️ John This has been taken a sign by many people that this means Apple definitely doesn’t have a 5K display. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John whether they do. I really want Apple to have one, even if it’s the exact same panel, not because this LG display

⏹️ ▶️ John is bad. This is exactly what I want. I just don’t want it to be ugly like that one is. I know it’s stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m picky and I want it to match and be nice, but like for crying out loud, the LG display

⏹️ ▶️ John has a bigger margin on the top of the display than the bottom. What kind of maniac? It’s a five head.

⏹️ ▶️ John The thing is a five head. It’s just, it’s no, it’s, anyway, I’m sure it’s a lovely display

⏹️ ▶️ John LG. I just want Apple to make one. If they never do, I will buy something like this LG display.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think the way it works with the laptops is amazing. And like, you know, applause

⏹️ ▶️ John all around.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I have always used a third party external display with my Macs until I got this iMac.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is, I’ve never bought an Apple display for my, Tiff had one, but I never bought one for myself before this iMac. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always had like Dells and HPs and before that, always third-party displays.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this new LG one is uglier than every monitor I have ever owned.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not that bad in the grand scheme of PC displays. It really is. But know what makes it

⏹️ ▶️ John ugly? It’s not ugly, but it doesn’t match the Apple aesthetic.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know what I mean? With the glass and the aluminum and the sort of tastefulness of the stand.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s fine. It’s not hideous. There are hideous PC monitors. We’ve all seen them, They just

⏹️ ▶️ John they they do the wrong thing with the foot and make the margins all weird even this this Asus display

⏹️ ▶️ John that I have My PlayStation attached to has like the shiny Surround on it that I find weird and it’s kind of creaky

⏹️ ▶️ John and the the power button is on the bottom when you hit it The whole display tilts and it’s just it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John feel as nice and this is totally like touchy-feely aesthetic stuff Like I’m not even talking about the screen,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Because again LG makes all the panels anyway, like they make the panel for the iMac They make the panel for the

⏹️ ▶️ John display. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m just a picky person And I also think Apple should be in the business of making displays

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s a it’s a selling point to say first of all Why shouldn’t Apple make that money? They can add margin sell

⏹️ ▶️ John it for an extra hundred bucks like whatever will buy it the sucker all the suckers will buy it and It’s like nice cool thing like

⏹️ ▶️ John that thing they touted you can connect one Thunderbolt cable to your laptop and it charges

⏹️ ▶️ John it and also drive that it’s like that’s amazing That should be like that should be in an Apple family like product family photo

⏹️ ▶️ John like look at this awesome setup You could have you could have this portable computer when you sit down at work. You have this amazing screen

⏹️ ▶️ John or even two of them And that’s phenomenal. And I feel like Apple is not emphasizing that arrangement

⏹️ ▶️ John as much because it’s like, well, we don’t even make the display. We’ll mention it and it’s nice. And we probably have some deal with LG and we work with them,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not gonna be in all our product family shots. Maybe it’ll be in one of them. And so I feel like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is leaving money on the table. I continue to hold out hope that they will introduce a 5K display. Maybe I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John a fool. Obviously, if the Mac Pro is ever revised and there’s still no 5K display,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, I’m just glad there’ll be something for me to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy. Yeah, I mean, I would give the chances of this, of Apple’s 5K display

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually coming out now. Like, you know, I believe, Tipsy and everyone else, that this thing exists inside of Apple and that it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was possibly even finished. But whether it ships is always a different story.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I would give the likelihood of this shipping now, since it didn’t ship at this event and since

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple pushed the LG one so hard, I would say it’s 50-50 at best now. Yeah, it’s looking grim.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If it does ship, it’ll probably ship, like, you know, maybe next summer when the Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is presumably updated, if that even happens, like even that is a big if. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are you two pleased? I’m not prodding you on purpose anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are you pleased with this event? Because I feel like I’ve heard both of you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey flip-flop between this was wonderful and oh my God, I hate everything. That’s an exaggeration. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, are you happy with what Apple did today? Or are you completely left wanting?

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco ordered a computer, so he’s got to be happy in some respects.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I’m happy in the sense that… For years, I’ve been saying,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco man, wouldn’t it be great if they put the Air CPU inside a computer with a nice large battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and a retina screen and everything? And that’s exactly what they did. And that’s kind of why I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco putting my money where my mouth is and actually ordering this computer, because I think it’s going to be amazing for my actual preferences

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now. However, the rest of the event, you know, it’s a mixed bag.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We didn’t even talk about the keyboard. According to most of the reviewers, it seems like this keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feels very similar to the MacBook One keyboard, and that is not

⏹️ ▶️ John good. Yeah, I was going to say earlier, you said you ordered this one because it solved all the problems, but isn’t one of the reasons that you hated the

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook One was the terrible keyboard and now you just ordered a computer with the slightly improved version

⏹️ ▶️ John of the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard? Yes, and I’m going to have to see if that works for me. I hope it does.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It might not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do we know when these new ones are going to be in stores? Are they today?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The MacBook Escape is going to be available, I think, tomorrow or early

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next week. It’s in the next few days for the MacBook Escape. And then the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook with Touch Bars, I don’t think there is a clear in-store date on those, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s going to be probably two or three weeks at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey least. To be clear, I’m not talking about to purchase. I’m talking about to take it for a test drive in terms of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard. Yeah, no, I’m guessing that you’re not going to see any before two weeks from now. My understanding,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think anybody, I don’t think even the reviewers have the Touch Bar ones yet. So that, I mean, it’s clear they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not ready yet. I mean, maybe they’re hanging out with the AirPods in a warehouse somewhere, but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clearly not out for showing outside of that press room today

⏹️ ▶️ John yet. I mean, the press got to play with them. They just might not have gotten to take one home. So they were there, like

⏹️ ▶️ John people who could use them. You can see videos online of people playing with them. That’s where I got to see like how really cool

⏹️ ▶️ John this… We’ve spent so long not seeing matte monitors, you know, and so to see a tiny

⏹️ ▶️ John matte display where they match the finish to the keycaps, it looks super cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John It looks like a future world thing. It also makes you wish that all the keys were tiny screens and then the whole keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John is a screen, but we already talked about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, so it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably going to be great, but overall though, the event I think is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good for most of the things it introduced, but there are a bunch of asterisks because some things did get worse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or more expensive. And it was an incomplete update to the Mac line because there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of things that still didn’t get updated that desperately need them. And we were expecting that, of course, but that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does color our feelings on it because what we’ve seen basically is that Apple might be out of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the woods on the MacBook Pro, but we don’t know if they’re out of the woods yet on everything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I mean, I don’t think the iMac is really in a bad spot. Now the other ones I will concede,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I think the laptops look good now. I don’t think the iMacs are bad. I think once the Kaby Lake or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever it’s called comes out, I think then we’ll see the update there. The mini and the pro obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are total dumpster fire, but I mean, the main desktop line and the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey main laptop line are both looking good and that’s not a bad place to be. John, what did you think of the event?

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think all the computers they introduced are pretty good. Like you

⏹️ ▶️ John always have your little complaints, like half the time it’s like the storage on the iPhones or whatever on this one it’s the max ram on

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing and the escape you know but overall these are really good machines these I think the important

⏹️ ▶️ John point to take away from this is it is now safe to recommend people to buy MacBook Pros again

⏹️ ▶️ John whereas for a long time it wasn’t and now I think we all feel totally safe because all these are winners all these are good computers

⏹️ ▶️ John they have modern ish internals even if it’s not Kaby Lake or whatever the models that could possibly have

⏹️ ▶️ John it right they have something cool and new and interesting which is the touch bar in some models, their retina, their p3,

⏹️ ▶️ John like the thunderbolt, the capabilities for external displays like these are these are

⏹️ ▶️ John good laptops. And you mentioned like, oh, they’re probably out of the woods on the MacBook Pros.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s difficult to say on those type of things, because it’s like, yes, and now finally, finally, they’re they’re recommendable

⏹️ ▶️ John models, they are max to be proud of their max that Apple can be proud of selling that the people are people who buy

⏹️ ▶️ John them are going to have good experiences, even if like, oh, I miss mag safe and I wish I had an SD card slot or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John like these are good laptops but just like the Mac Pro you’re not really

⏹️ ▶️ John out of the woods with one data point you have to you have to show that it’s not going to be another

⏹️ ▶️ John year and a half and we’re not going to have to wait for three more generations of Intel CPUs for

⏹️ ▶️ John the uh for the 15 inch to get upgraded to the to the new architecture right like that’s what you have to show

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to to restore faith you really have to show consistency So good, we have ended

⏹️ ▶️ John the drought. But it’s like, we don’t, you know, don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John trust that this is going to be an ongoing concern until you show me, all right,

⏹️ ▶️ John update them to Kaby Lake, you know, update them to whatever lake is after that. I forget what the hell

⏹️ ▶️ John that the Intel like, are you going to update this regularly now? Because that’s what we want as

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac fans and enthusiasts and buyers of like, really expensive machines with

⏹️ ▶️ John high margins, right? it. We want to show we want to see that Apple cares about

⏹️ ▶️ John our concerns. So good, you did that for these ones, but I’m still kind of like cautiously looking at it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And a lot of the event for the things that we knew weren’t going to be there. We’re still grumpy

⏹️ ▶️ John about not being there. You mentioned all those things like the ones they introduced. That’s not the problem. Those are cool machines.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the ones they didn’t introduce, even though we knew we weren’t gonna introduce them, we can still be cranky about it. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John ones that they’re still selling on modified because I feel like Apple’s laptop line is now

⏹️ ▶️ John still filled with some machines that seem kind of creaky and old. Not that they’re bad

⏹️ ▶️ John machines, not like the Mac Pro, you know, like the 13-inch non-retina Air. It’s not a bad

⏹️ ▶️ John machine, but I feel like it is a increasingly worse value proposition

⏹️ ▶️ John as other things get better. Same thing with the iMac. 5k Mac I think is a great computer. But suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ John it looks slightly worse when I see the 15-inch Pro, which has a cool touch bar and has the Thunderbolt 3 things,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I I look at the 5K iMac, I’m like, you look slightly less amazing to me now. Which is as it should be. Every time

⏹️ ▶️ John you make a new computer, your older ones that you haven’t updated in a while look a little bit worse. But now it’s filled with

⏹️ ▶️ John the fear of like, and will they update the iMac to have Thunderbolt 3 ports on the back? And will they update the

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac to have Kaby Lake and a better GPU? Like there’s this fear involved in everything. It’s like, we don’t just trust it like, yeah, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the iMac was updated before, and now the MacBook Pros are at the head of the pack. The old way was like, yep, the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John Pros are the kings now, but soon the iMac will get its update, and then it will leap ahead, And we’ll just go on you know leapfrogging each

⏹️ ▶️ John other and you know sometimes it’s cool And they all update at the same time when we get excited, but otherwise we just expect this cadence

⏹️ ▶️ John and now with this really long delay between things

⏹️ ▶️ John Everything it’s almost as if by introducing the new cool MacBook Pros It has made us feel worse about the rest of their line

⏹️ ▶️ John that wasn’t updated than we did before so It is a mixed bag, and I have to say

⏹️ ▶️ John honestly that finally to cap this off the the surface studio event really did

⏹️ ▶️ John affect how this felt to me, right, which is a rare thing that happens at a Microsoft event

⏹️ ▶️ John and a Microsoft product colors. How I view Apple’s things, but but it just did and we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John say this for a future show to dwell more on the the surface studio products whose name I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John remember and keep messing up when I try to say that did color how I look at this,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, and that has good and bad aspects. But it means that I, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have the same unbridled for all these reasons. I don’t have the same unbridled enthusiasm for the new products as

⏹️ ▶️ John I used to, even though I think they’re really cool. And like I said, even though I’m actually going to be getting one of these at work, which

⏹️ ▶️ John I am kind of excited about.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our three sponsors this week,, Squarespace and Mac Paw. and we’ll see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over. They didn’t even mean to begin because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. It was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research. Margot and Casey

⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t let him because it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was accidental. And you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes at ATP dot FM. And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and T. Marco Armin,

⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to to

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental accidental tech podcasts So long

Post-show: Keyboards and mice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really do want to go to the store and try out one of these keyboards because it’s funny,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t have the unbridled hatred of the MacBook One keyboard that Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seems to, but I definitely agree that it leaves me wanting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But as I’ve said numerous times, I freaking love the Magic Keyboard,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is not that far away from the MacBook One keyboard. So I’m curious,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey once I try these new machines, will I find them to be more MacBook One or more Magic Keyboard?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And to Marco’s point earlier, everyone that’s reviewing them is saying, well, it’s more MacBook One than Magic.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know. I’m curious.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m curious to try it. I think it was interesting, too, like in the Johnny Ive explanation video,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they really hammered on the fact that this was the second generation butterfly key switch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They really made it very clear, this is not the same keyboard. This is an improved keyboard. Which I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was kind of a tacit acknowledgement of like, yeah, that first one wasn’t very good or was at least controversial. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they really want us to know that this is new and improved. We’ll see if it actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve been thinking about this theoretical product. The more I think about it, the more ridiculous it seems in my mind.

⏹️ ▶️ John The idea, because you mentioned you really like the new Magic Keyboard and, you know, I don’t like the fact that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John all squished up there, but the key presses I might like. I don’t even know if I actually tried one. Anyway, a

⏹️ ▶️ John touch bar. a touch bar on a magic keyboard, like a magic keyboard, you know, a plug-in or otherwise, or with a battery.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just start to think about that product and how absurd it is. It is basically

⏹️ ▶️ John an old iPad with a really skinny screen and a physical keyboard welded to it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I want a thing that I touch down here that has a screen, but mostly it’s a keyboard,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s also a screen with a little computer running it, and it’s like, how does that tension resolve itself between

⏹️ ▶️ John these two things? And the keys, by the way, are getting thinner and smaller and traveling less and less. It’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John so weird. Anyway, I would like one of those. Of course, I would want the extended one. An Apple extended

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard, an aluminum Apple extended keyboard with full-size touch bar, separated

⏹️ ▶️ John from the number things. Like I’m willing to give up all this desk space, all this precious desk space that apparently they think I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John filling my desk with coffee cups or something, and I don’t have five millimeters to spare. That would be a cool product,

⏹️ ▶️ John but man, would that be a weird product. Because it’s like, it’s like an iPad with a tiny

⏹️ ▶️ John screen with a keyboard attached. What the hell is that? I don’t even know. It’s definitely,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I, like I said, it is definitely a transitional fossil. It is, it is not the end evolution of anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So out of curiosity, do you use your, your 10 key numeric keys that often?

⏹️ ▶️ John Mostly to enter RSA token values, but yeah, I do use it for that. And, and

⏹️ ▶️ John if you want to, oh, RSA, oh, RSA. Um, every time I, every

⏹️ ▶️ John time I use it to, to factor into a production machine, that number is burned. So you know, I open

⏹️ ▶️ John up another tab or another window immediately. Gotta wait for a new number. Type in a new

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Delightful. It is. And I do use that. I would sacrifice it though. If you’re asking like I would, I would chop off

⏹️ ▶️ John that thing. I want, I want home. I want home and end and page up and page down and arrows. I will not give them

⏹️ ▶️ John up, but I would sacrifice the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey numpad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I could. Any Apple keyboard I’ve ever seen you either give up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the home and page up etc with the 10 keys I know I mean, that’s I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Casey teach their own I would I guess in a perfect world I wouldn’t mind having them, but I absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would prefer a wireless keyboard Except maybe with the mini iPad on it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I prefer a wireless keyboard and I can certainly live without all of those keys personally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John me. I would plug it in. I still use wired everything and like it’s a desktop

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Barbaric mouse, don’t you I can

⏹️ ▶️ John find yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey we use a wired mouse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah, remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he uses a like $10 piece of

⏹️ ▶️ John junk. I do

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I have a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John problem I’ve had a mouse problem for a long time and it’s not the wire It’s the fact that I can’t find a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John made in this decade that I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like and so I keep

⏹️ ▶️ John using this ancient I have one at home and when it worked this ancient mouse that isn’t is not a good mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John And one of them died and I had to buy one new on eBay and now Like I really need to find a mouse that I like

⏹️ ▶️ John and I don’t have anything against wireless Although I would find the battery charging and I would probably be fine with it

⏹️ ▶️ John Although I still I don’t know like for gaming and everything I was looking at some

⏹️ ▶️ John aftermarket PlayStation 4 controllers and they were wired. I was like, you know, I’m on board with that

⏹️ ▶️ John like the psychological advantage of not not having to think about the Wi-Fi signaling process adding latency

⏹️ ▶️ John to my crappy game reflexes I need all the help I can get just connect it with the wire I’m sitting in front of

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing anyway like anyway for mouse and keyboard both the

⏹️ ▶️ John wires are routed in such a way that the fact that they’re wired does not enter into

⏹️ ▶️ John you know my mind I don’t see them they don’t bother me they’re all managed well it’s fine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we talked about your ridiculous mice in episode 132 they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not ridiculous they’re fine they’re just really really really old And and

⏹️ ▶️ John you know I don’t know I just it’s difficult with mice because we do buy and return them buy and return them And just like go

⏹️ ▶️ John to a store and hold a bunch of them in your hand try to guess which ones you like I tried That I’d bought a bunch of new ones And I was I was wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John that I gave them all like several weeks I was like no I go back to the old one. I still say

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s because of the stupid original Mac mouse That I learned that I learned to mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John on and now I just Keep looking for other mice with straight vertical sides without buttons all

⏹️ ▶️ John over them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I mean the magic mouse is pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good. No, the magic mouse,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I am

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a diehard magic mouse user and it’s terrible, it’s way too

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John flat. Way, way, way too flat. It’s not terrible if you like a

⏹️ ▶️ John mouse. You can just hold it differently. Yeah, if you’re the type of person who rests your hand on a mouse, like if you learned, maybe you learned like

⏹️ ▶️ John the iMac generation with the stupid puck, which kind of made you like, because you couldn’t grab the sides, but I’m a side grabber.

⏹️ ▶️ John I hold the mouse.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No, I’m the same way. I hold the mouse on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco side. I got my thumb and my ring finger hold the mouse and so my hand floats

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very far above

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. It’s the same here, but the nice thing is a lot of modern mice that are not the magic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mouse are super bulbous, and so even though there’s, so I’m looking at the way I’m holding my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey magic mouse right now, and there’s a mile of air between the top of the mouse and my palm,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but on a lot of the modern mice, that will be taken up by the mouse, so you can just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey flop your hand right on it, and it’s in that same shape, but you don’t have to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually worry about holding your hand up. And I really miss that about the Magic Mouse, but in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey every other way, I think this thing is darn near perfect. So that’s why I’ve put up with it since

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it

⏹️ ▶️ John was released. What about the right click and having to not have your left finger down? Doesn’t that drive you mad? No.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I honestly, like I have, I mean, I’ve been using Apple’s mice now for probably a good six or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seven years now. That took me about a half a day to get used to doing it correctly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I literally never have like a misclick, where I mean to right click and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I instead like that never happens.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think I’d have a misclick but like because I’m so sensitive the RSI is anything that that requires me to sort of basically

⏹️ ▶️ John hold my muscles and tendons and static contraction for a brief period of time like

⏹️ ▶️ John having anything poised over anything without allowing it to rest on it that I’m very sensitive

⏹️ ▶️ John to those type of moves. So even just the briefness of like remembering to lift while I press down on the other one. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John that I would accidentally ever trigger the other behavior. It’s just that that it is a ever so slightly

⏹️ ▶️ John more muscle stress inducing move than my current

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. And I’m not even saying how I use my current mouse is good. RSI wise, it’s just the way I happen to

⏹️ ▶️ John do it. And but but that definitely like anything that requires you to hover or hold over or

⏹️ ▶️ John lift when you didn’t have to lift before as opposed to being a more relaxed thing is difficult, even if it’s just a matter of like changing

⏹️ ▶️ John my habits to try to relax and do the same move. I found that difficult to do. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John looking at how I mouse I realized But I also do which is a reason a lot of the the much more ergonomic Strictly speaking

⏹️ ▶️ John gaming mice and everything that let you like put your whole hand on it They’re kind of shaped like if you grabbed a big blob

⏹️ ▶️ John of clay and squeezed You know like where you have your whole hand on top of the thing very large mice

⏹️ ▶️ John The reason those don’t agree with me is that very often I rest my my

⏹️ ▶️ John palm on the mousepad And I’m only moving the mouse with my thumb and my ring finger,

⏹️ ▶️ John but my palm is stationary for fine motion you ever do that? Isn’t that terrible? I don’t,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not really that good. I, I doesn’t, it probably doesn’t seem that it’s good, but it has the advantage that

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not holding my arm and wrist up poised over the thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey which,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it, I don’t know, I’m just saying what I do. I’m looking down at what my hand does. I do find movements, sometimes without

⏹️ ▶️ John moving my hand, I’m only moving my fingers, and you can’t do that if the mouse is so large that it expects your entire hand to be

⏹️ ▶️ John on it, because then how could your, how could like the, the, the ball of your Palm

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever be resting on the mouse but not all the time like obviously when I’m mousing way across the screen I’m not doing that But my

⏹️ ▶️ John palm actually is fairly close to the mouse pad a lot of the time and when I’m not moving it goes back into rest

⏹️ ▶️ John Like on the mouse pad instead of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the mouse. It’s I think I’m the same way as you obviously I’m not looking at what what you’re describing, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the way you describe it. It sounds like the exact same way I mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and and that’s not a good fit for the shape of the album I’ll say I’m mouse is much better if you’re resting your hand

⏹️ ▶️ John on it kind of like you’re petting petting a cute little white fuzzy mouse, you know, it’s down there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m surprised, Marco, that for someone who really, really has to have an ergonomic keyboard that you can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey handle having such a woefully non-ergonomic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mouse. I mean, what it is mostly, I mean, mousing for whatever reason has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not seemed to cause me problems, whereas having to type on a non-ergonomic keyboard,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like one that doesn’t have the split and the angle, that caused me problems quickly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the reasons I don’t use a laptop full-time is because I kind of can’t. I can use it for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco short periods, temporary things like trips and stuff and on planes, but after a while it hurts, whereas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco regular ones don’t. Mice have just always, for whatever reason, I’ve always been fine using pretty much any mouse. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what keeps me on the Magic Mouse, people who don’t like the Magic Mouse dislike it so much that they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are shocked when they hear somebody like a computer nerd like us, uses one of these things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the main reason I use it is once you get used to having inertial scrolling,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is really hard not to have it. And it’s totally fine, it’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would like those features too. Like I envy those features of the Magic Mouse. Not enough for me to start using

⏹️ ▶️ John it because it’s too low and I hit the right click, but I would like to use that. Whenever I’m using a Magic Mouse, I

⏹️ ▶️ John appreciate that feature of it and I wish it was on a mouse with a shape that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco liked. Keep holding out, John, someday. Oh, I don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John any hope of that. It’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be the same the same event in which they unveil your gaming PC that will cost nothing. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah Yeah, yeah, I did we mention I don’t know if I mentioned this on the show proper Maybe I just alluded to it a few times But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s worth putting in here for the for the faithful people who listen this far into the show Did the show live up

⏹️ ▶️ John to the hello again hype that an old-school Mac user like me?

⏹️ ▶️ John Received from that invitation. No. No, it did not not not even close. These are not on par with the original

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac These are not on par with the iMac These are not on par with the iPhone that had hello in the commercial

⏹️ ▶️ John hello again was was. appropriate if your goal was not to overhype

⏹️ ▶️ John old fogies like me.

Post-show: Sport!

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you know you realize during the World Series that this the one time a year that the fewest

⏹️ ▶️ John number of baseball teams are playing when there are any playing at all. This is just two teams. I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know that. I mean you do logically speaking know that when the championship is going on all the teams

⏹️ ▶️ John that are no longer in the championship aren’t playing anymore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right. So wait so I know they play like five or seven games right. It’s the same two teams

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for all those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey games.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my God. Do they just play till somebody wins three of them or

⏹️ ▶️ John something. It’s the World Series like if there’s going to be. Think of it this way. There’s a sports that has a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of teams. At one point, one team has to be the winner. You do that by process of elimination.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but I just assumed that there were like, you know, maybe four or five teams that made it into the final group of games

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John and then they played the World

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Series. Yeah, I assumed it was like a small handful of teams, not just two.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what part of the United States you grew up on where they allowed you to get to adult age without with knowing so little

⏹️ ▶️ John about baseball. Seems like a failure of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the national pastime. No, you know why? I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. Columbus does not have a pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco team. It’s all about Ohio State, and I don’t think they do baseball. So it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey big… Oh, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do baseball. Well, okay, but nobody cares about it. So it’s a… Sorry, Columbus people. So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big town for college football, and basically nothing… Like every other sport

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is kind of minimized in Ohio, in Columbus specifically, because Ohio

⏹️ ▶️ Marco State football is such a big deal. So there’s really no room in people’s energy and mind… Basketball, a little bit,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but there’s really no room there for for like culturally for anyone to really care that strongly about pro baseball

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway the World Series is two teams there’s two leagues and nationally in the American League

⏹️ ▶️ John the number one team from the National League plays number team from the American League if you win if you are the number one team the National American

⏹️ ▶️ John League that’s called winning the pennant and then those two teams go to the World

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Series wait so that so winning the World Series is not winning a pennant what do they win

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the end of the World Series

⏹️ ▶️ John winning the pennant is when you three bases you hit the ball you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s just cheese like do they want to flag it in the world series like what happens like what are they the

⏹️ ▶️ John trophy is terrible the World Series trophy but but anyway no there’s just two teams so I’m saying is during the

⏹️ ▶️ John regular season in any given day many teams are playing they’re all playing each other to see who’s

⏹️ ▶️ John win-loss record is gonna be better to get into the playoffs and blah blah but during the World Series you’re down to two teams

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the way are the playoffs different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John can we just stop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I honestly

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know anyway the point is there’s actually less baseball on the normal although I don’t follow

⏹️ ▶️ John baseball either for all I know the World Series is over is the World Series over Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might know no it’s not last I heard it was either tied

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up or two to one and is it which game number in the seven is this I was two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to

⏹️ ▶️ John one you can figure it out what if it’s two games to one they played three

⏹️ ▶️ John games

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh I thought I thought that was the score of tonight’s game that was still going because baseball takes forever I figured

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was the score of the game that’s happening right now is there a game happening

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right now I don’t know I thought there was but I’m not sure

⏹️ ▶️ John still busy watching the toadies that’s right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like blammer in the chat I fell asleep and just woke up to an exasperated Syracuse explaining baseball

⏹️ ▶️ John like if I’m explaining baseball something has gone terribly wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey well doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know whether the world series is over yet this is everything is relative you have to

⏹️ ▶️ John like take the entire scale and skew it way over to one end and then you’re into the ATP zone for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John sports.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is not today they’re playing game three on Friday so it is tied one to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one they are playing game three

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tomorrow. So they’ve each won one game and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey just play till somebody wins

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually four of them I guess? Correct. Right so that’s that’s why they don’t always play all seven

⏹️ ▶️ Marco games. Correct.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. You okay? Do you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need an aspirin? I know I’m good because I will see none of these games.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will know mostly not what happens in them except at the end I know that it’s meaningful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it hasn’t happened in a very long time that I guess the Cubs are in it they’re one of the two teams mm-hmm so I know I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know that’s significant you know about the goat curse

⏹️ ▶️ John no see all these things that you can know about baseball that are fun sounding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the go curse is so ridiculous so I don’t this doesn’t sound fun to me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s the fun part of it the origin of the goat curse is from a time when

⏹️ ▶️ John you could bring your goat to the baseball game with you apparently yikes like go to the park go into the stands

⏹️ ▶️ John go find your seat but bring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your goat because well it was like it was the 40s right it was a long very long time ago right yes

⏹️ ▶️ John a very long time ago but surely you can appreciate the idea of bringing your goat to the baseball

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game and who who are they what’s the other team that’s in the series Cleveland

⏹️ ▶️ John oh who cares about them as someone pointed out in a tweet it’s Sarah for a sans serif because their

⏹️ ▶️ John logos are both C’s but one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has serifs. That was pretty magnificent. I don’t remember who that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was. So it I mean it’s gotta be a little bit hard to be the Cleveland whatever’s in this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco series because like basically nobody wants them to win like everybody wants the Cubs win because it would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so amazing right? People in Cleveland want them to win. Do they really but like wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John wouldn’t even. Yes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they really do. But wouldn’t even they be like really really happy to see the Cubs win it? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you understand how

⏹️ ▶️ John sports works. Sports fandom works. Wouldn’t they be happy for the other team that hadn’t won in a long time,

⏹️ ▶️ John no. They want them to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey die. Plus Cleveland already won the NBA championship, and so if they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey were to win the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John MLB championship,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would be a huge big deal as well. So that is all the justification a Cleveland fan needs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be all about Cleveland and screw the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cubs. Do people cross sports a lot like that? Do they really care that things happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco across different sports in the same city? Is that a thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you care if Apple releases great iPhones and Macs? I mean, they’re two different things from the same company.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s a very weak analogy, but it’s still the

⏹️ ▶️ John same thing. It’s about fandom and about being proud of where you live for completely

⏹️ ▶️ John illogical reasons. Well, reasons that are explicable in terms of tribalism,

⏹️ ▶️ John but don’t make any sense. Anyway, whatever. Yes, people love it. They love it. Red Sox

⏹️ ▶️ John win, Patriots win. They love it. Can we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco please make accidental sports podcast where you just you just explain a sport

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John to me

⏹️ ▶️ John every week? I already have the title of our sports cod pass would clearly be the blind leading the blind.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That would be our

⏹️ ▶️ John sports podcast. You’re like sports, how do they work? Although

⏹️ ▶️ John I could explain I feel like I am I am a fairly big expert in tennis. So at least there’s one sport

⏹️ ▶️ John that I understand very, very thoroughly. But even that I don’t actually even that I don’t Understand

⏹️ ▶️ John all the particulars of the intricacies of the different kinds of like like the the mechanisms of the league. I just understand

⏹️ ▶️ John the game itself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow, you should do an f1 podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Oh, that was good one stone.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah You know McLaren’s more of a technology company

⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, they’re more of a carbon fiber manufacturer actually McLaren’s more of a food service company

⏹️ ▶️ John if you think about it really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh Oh, I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John believe we’re still going. I guess we’re not now, but I was surprisingly fired up after this thing too. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know why I’m all worked up. You should go watch some sport. Hmm. No, I don’t do that singular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey crap. Yeah. That’s bullshit. Total.

⏹️ ▶️ John Get my maths mixed up with my sport. I feel like sport should be pronounced like with a silent T like

⏹️ ▶️ John sport.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Why don’t you, uh, yeah. Watch your sport while you do some maths. That’s just, no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stop. That’s why it’s that’s why their English is a rough draft.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So oh I forgot to ask did your Flippies or whatever lose what happened?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hokies won.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh Okay, that’s the one you’re rooting for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s yeah. Cool. Congratulations for something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yay Actually, it’s a good season. We’re all qualified

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now wait for which aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there like ten bowls which bowl There’s like a hundred bowls, but you have to have six wins enough balls

⏹️ ▶️ John to go around It’s it’s like a trophies for like a little kid say everyone gets a trophy and everyone gets a bowl

⏹️ ▶️ John Not everyone gets to play in them though, but almost everyone. Enough so everyone feels good about themselves.