Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

146: Control + Money + Smallness

Open-source Swift, iPhone headphone jacks, and the final toaster review.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Staff Ogg
  2. How mDNSResponder returned
  3. Sponsor: Cards Against Humanity
  4. Headphone-port rumors
  5. Sponsor: Warby Parker
  6. Swift goes open-source
  7. Sponsor: Harry’s
  8. Swift’s open-source license
  9. Ending theme
  10. Post-show: John’s iCloud story
  11. Siracusa Toaster Song (extended)

Staff Ogg

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re always sick. Here’s how I know that I’m going to be sick Adam is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in school and it’s the winter Therefore we are sick

⏹️ ▶️ John How do you pronounce this person’s name you both know this person right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Andreas Netsman

⏹️ ▶️ John It was one of the many people who were to tell us that apparently I max no longer have IR sensors since around 2012.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the people suggesting that perhaps my Shiny new 5k iMac

⏹️ ▶️ John was getting woken from sleep by our apparently that’s not happening because there is no sensor So that’s kind of good to know

⏹️ ▶️ John in other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco words this ancient history is that IMAX have not had IR sensors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since four years after your Mac Pro was made that you’re still using every day

⏹️ ▶️ John Still working just fine. I’m wondering at this point I’m wondering if I can make it ten years, but I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t want to Apple just

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey make an

⏹️ ▶️ John external 5k display If we’re crying out loud, you’ll make it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ll see because they’re they’re not gonna make the computer you want ever and so you’re gonna keep holding

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on

⏹️ ▶️ John sure they will I just need an external 5k display and a computer that can drive it and they’re not gonna make the display with no computer

⏹️ ▶️ John that You can drive and they’re not gonna make a computer that can drive it with no display So it’ll happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the computer that drives it is gonna not have the right kind of gaming card for you and configure It’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be way too expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna be the right right time, but it’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco acceptable

⏹️ ▶️ John It will be way faster than everything else. I have including the one that’s built into the iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey goodness Did I tell you guys that um? Yeah, so I’m working out of a client’s office for the last month

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or so and will be for a while you know as working for a client goes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s pretty good, but It’s still kind of weird doing the staff org

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing, which is not what I’m used to doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wait, the what the staff og thing. What does that mean John? I

⏹️ ▶️ John have no idea Really? This is the consultant language. You’re speaking now. I never did consulting. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just a Virginia thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no No, it’s not a Virginia thing. It’s a consulting thing. Staff augmentation. So generally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking, the work I do…

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I would have got that if you had pronounced it like a New Yorker. I was like, staff aug? Is it like augvorbus?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I thought OG. Yeah, but you’re hanging out with Tiffenov, you should know it’s staff aug. You’re a staff

⏹️ ▶️ John aug. What, you’re doing staff aug?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. So, staff aug. My clock is ticking like

⏹️ ▶️ John this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, just as a random guess here, I’m guessing that nobody who has a New York accent thick enough to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notice like that would ever say staff og like just the phrase would never use that phrase

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’d say it there’s no overlap between the population who would say that phrase and people who would have that accent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh

⏹️ ▶️ John people are there are consultants on long island too i got no more use for this guy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so anyway so i’m doing staff log and uh and basically what that means is rather than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey having a group of my co-workers that is working to solve to to build a project

⏹️ ▶️ Casey um as a group often in concert with the client, you know, we prefer to do it in concert with the client, but it’s, it’s a group

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us. Um, this by comparison is basically, I get kicked

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the butt over to a client’s office and said, come back in a few months when the client doesn’t want to pay for your time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore. And, uh, some all by myself. But anyway, the reason I actually bring this up is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got issued that God awful Dell that I had tweeted a picture of the God awful keyboard. And I got to tell you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the track pad is unusable. I fiddled with the settings to kingdom come. The track pad is unusable. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how anyone uses a Dell. But anyway, I look around me and you know what I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see all over this office? Cinema displays. Everywhere. It drives me insane. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want one so badly, even though I know there’s much better displays to be had, but I’ve always just thought they were so pretty and beautiful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they have like a quasi-docking station and I want one so bad and they’re everywhere. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey makes me sad, you guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just think, if you had one, you could plug in all of your FireWire 400 devices. I know, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It would be delightful. No, I am jealous of it. I’d love to have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Ethernet hanging off there, my mic setup at home

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hanging off of there. Man can dream. But yeah, so here I am using my Dell with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of these cinema displays and MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs all around me.

⏹️ ▶️ John You feel like a real consultant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then, right? If only you had two or three Mac laptops that you could bring one to your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco client’s side.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh, well, that’s what I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do. I bring my work laptop so I can get work email and talk on work I am, etc. etc.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it’s depressing. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sad. Well, it would be more depressing if you really were tied to the idea of listening

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to your headphones on your iPhone while you were working and charging it at the same time, which might not be possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next year.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, you’re jumping ahead. You’re jumping ahead. All right, we have more follow-up, though. I derailed us, and then you tried

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to move the train forward. Let’s get back on the tracks.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, yes. There’s not too much follow-up, so derail is fine there.

How mDNSResponder returned

⏹️ ▶️ John This is from Sebastian Krause Cruz. That’s a German names

⏹️ ▶️ John today Trying to tell us about a little bit of the history behind MDNS responder

⏹️ ▶️ John and discovery D and all that stuff this story is told in a video that is in German So we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John getting this translated for us So we’ll put a link to the video in the show notes if you understand German you can watch it But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re taking this person’s word for it on the translation Apparently the story is about Vince surf the father

⏹️ ▶️ John of the Internet You can read his Wikipedia page if you want to learn all about him and DARPA and TCP IP

⏹️ ▶️ John and all that good stuff Anyway, he was at an IETF meeting Internet Engineering Task Force meeting

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was fed up that his printer wasn’t working anymore So he called up Tim Cook Which is a thing you can do when you’re Vince surf apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’re pissed off about your printer not working and Tim Cook then Talked to Stuart Cheshire who’s the guy who

⏹️ ▶️ John invented Bonjour formerly known as rendezvous and a bunch of other Apple networking stuff and told

⏹️ ▶️ John him to investigate and And eventually they’re the ones who supposedly came up with the idea of let’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just take out a discovery and put MDNS responder and see if that fixes the problem. So this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the possibly apocryphal story of one possible contributing factor to why

⏹️ ▶️ John did Apple, why did Apple know what, what did it take for Apple to take action

⏹️ ▶️ John and actually fix this problem once and for all. overall. And this story, I always find stories like this depressing if there’s even any bit of truth

⏹️ ▶️ John to them. It’s like, well, Apple didn’t care until Vince Cerf called Tim Cook. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John how the message actually got to the top that there was a problem. I really don’t like to believe that those things are true, but it does make for

⏹️ ▶️ John a funny story.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, honestly, it’s plausible. Based on based on Apple’s apparent reaction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to that, you know, all of a sudden, there’s a problem and Apple knows about it suddenly, but we’ve all known

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about it for years, it kind of does seem like whatever system is supposed to inform

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the high-ups about these problems that a lot of people face is falling over somewhere along

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way. Like that system, the high-ups are measuring something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they’re getting data from something, but it doesn’t seem like most of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual problems and actual criticism is reaching them, and that’s a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John scary. Well, big companies are all like that to some degree. It’s just that, you know, it’s the fantasy

⏹️ ▶️ John scenario that you have as a child that follows many people into adulthood that

⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere in the world there are the grown-up people who know what they’re doing. And when you become an adult,

⏹️ ▶️ John most people think you realize, oh, that’s not actually the case. Now I’m an adult and I realize no one knows what they’re doing, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ John we hold on to a little bit of that, especially for the things that we admire. Like, okay, my company doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know what what it’s doing. The the higher ups in my company have no clue. And my company is dysfunctional.

⏹️ ▶️ John But surely the you know, richest company in the world, the most successful technology company in the world

⏹️ ▶️ John got that way because they’re better than my crappy company. So even though I understand that, yes, no one knows what they’re doing. And there’s no people

⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere who are like, in charge and actually understand things. Surely Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is at least a little bit different. But I mean, Apple is a big company, just like any other big company. And it’s really difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John to organize a big company in a way that doesn’t incentivize people

⏹️ ▶️ John in management layers below the top to hide bad news from the people about them because they get rated

⏹️ ▶️ John and judged by how well they’re doing and like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s it’s it’s everyone’s best interest to some degree to not fully

⏹️ ▶️ John to not convey that losslessly up the management chain right and so that’s why like the

⏹️ ▶️ John Sebastian who wrote in is basically described this as a fix from the top down where you would hope that

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s lots of other people talking to lots of other customers and stuff about problems and doing, you know, the leaf nodes of the org

⏹️ ▶️ John chart, doing all sorts of things involving customers, gathering information, so on and so forth. But that

⏹️ ▶️ John information has to go up, up, up the chain. And the more levels it has to go through, the more likely it is

⏹️ ▶️ John to be toned down or reprioritized or whatever until by the time it gets

⏹️ ▶️ John to the top, something that is a real problem for most end

⏹️ ▶️ John users that the leaf nodes know about by the time it gets to the top, doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. So it has to come,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, and the other thing is just human nature of the people at the top. Maybe Vint Cerf was not annoyed

⏹️ ▶️ John by Discovery. Do you say he was annoyed by some other thing that just happened to annoy him? That might have gotten fixed

⏹️ ▶️ John and that just would have been Vint Cerf’s problem. So he would have bypassed the entire organization to get a thing that isn’t a problem for most

⏹️ ▶️ John other people fixed and he would be happy. And so in some respects the organization is working to try to

⏹️ ▶️ John prioritize things to tell Tim Cook what’s really important. In this case it just so happened that

⏹️ ▶️ John the top-down, you know, celebrity based fixing also happened to hit on the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that was a problem for a lot of other people. So I don’t know. Anyway, companies are messed up.

⏹️ ▶️ John Good talk. Well, you know, like I mean, Casey, can you since Marco had a little bit experience becoming a case,

⏹️ ▶️ John he haven’t worked in or consulted for big companies at the very least. Have you seen some of this going on where the

⏹️ ▶️ John lower you get in the org chart, the more people really know what’s going on?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, yes. And not at the company I’m consulting with now. But I think we talked about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it on the show like two years ago, but there was a large firm in Richmond that I,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I did some consulting for. And, um, it was abundantly obvious to me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that most of the organization was middle management and most of the organization,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or really all these middle managers really knew deep down that they were all redundant.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so every meeting you were in, everyone wanted to be included and everyone wanted to say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something really, really interesting. And so everyone around them knew, oh, Susie isn’t expendable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because Susie just said something smart. John or Bob, sorry, John and Bob.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He’s expendable because he didn’t really say anything this meeting. And it was just ridiculous because it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a billion middle managers and like seven actual grunts who actually got work done. You’re absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the tips in chat room points out the story about John Mayer, the musician famously emailing bugs in

⏹️ ▶️ John logic directly to Steve Jobs. And then they got fixed, you get an email,

⏹️ ▶️ John the logic team will get an email that says fix this, Steve, like and that’s another, that’s like the worst way to do

⏹️ ▶️ John this, by the way, like to have a famous person, go to the very top of your organization, and

⏹️ ▶️ John have the person at the top of your organization, highly motivated to satisfy the famous person, because sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John the famous person will find a legit bug that everyone has experienced. But a lot of time, the famous person will just be annoyed by some minor

⏹️ ▶️ John issue. And why do they get this special treatment like they may be, you know, reshaping

⏹️ ▶️ John the application in a bad way for most people just to satisfy john Mayer. So this is not a scalable system.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not I’m not saying like, the way it works now with the leaf nodes, not message not getting up as bad, and this is better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Really, you don’t want either one of those things. You want a an efficient organization that correctly

⏹️ ▶️ John communicates what’s really happening to your customers and how they really feel about your product up the management chain without diluting

⏹️ ▶️ John it in a way to protect the reputation of your group or whatever it is that you’re doing as a manager to

⏹️ ▶️ John try to say well this wasn’t our fault and this isn’t that big of a problem and everything we made in this last release

⏹️ ▶️ John is going really well so give me a good rating and a big bonus this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity. And rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than a regular sponsor read, they asked John to review one last toaster.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ♪ Syracuse are talking about toasters ♪

⏹️ ▶️ John ♪ More exciting than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a roller coaster ♪

⏹️ ▶️ John ♪ Will it fit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on his countertop? ♪ ♪ I hope the

⏹️ ▶️ John reviews never stop. ♪ So remember when I said I found that toaster in

⏹️ ▶️ John my garage? I didn’t realize I had the monstrosity with like the big griddle on top of it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, and a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot of stuff. Since I didn’t realize I had that toaster, at some point during the year,

⏹️ ▶️ John you could ask the question that we always ask, is like, do you have a toaster for this week? And it’d be like, no, I don’t have a toaster. And then they would rush one

⏹️ ▶️ John out to me and I would get a toaster. And so basically somewhere their count got off. So a toaster arrived

⏹️ ▶️ John for this week, but I already had toaster. So now I have two toasters for this week, and there’s no sense in saving one of them because

⏹️ ▶️ John this is the last week. So this is gonna be a double toaster review.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this

⏹️ ▶️ John is exciting. Lucky, lucky you. The first toaster is the Americana

⏹️ ▶️ John Collection 3-in-1 Mini Breakfast Shop. Shop with two Ps and an E. This is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey model

⏹️ ▶️ John EBK-200BL. And if you look at it, it looks

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot like the crazy one from the last time. The red thing, where it’s got, it’s like a toaster oven.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s got a little tiny coffee pot, drip coffee pot thing. And on top of the toaster, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John got a little thing that gets hot where you can, in theory, cook some eggs or something. Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John last one. Remember I said that the coffee thing, even though the picture you’re picturing it like it’s a regular drip coffee

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, really it’s like tiny and doll-sized. This one, my daughter actually said in the kitchen, she walked up to

⏹️ ▶️ John it and said, that looks like it’s for a doll. This thing is microscopic. It is incredibly, incredibly

⏹️ ▶️ John small. Obviously the coffee thing is tiny, but then look at the toaster part. I mean, I guess you can look at the measurements and try to get an idea

⏹️ ▶️ John for it, but here’s the best way I can describe it to our audience. The tray that slides inside the toaster

⏹️ ▶️ John is smaller than the magic trackpad too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Can you even fit one piece of

⏹️ ▶️ John bread on there? You can fit one piece of bread on there if it’s not too big. So you can’t do two. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So this is very similar to the old one. I didn’t know there was such a market for these three-in-one things. So

⏹️ ▶️ John similar, like, so the coffee thing looks like it’s might even be using some of the same parts. That one still does its job.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can put water in there and heats it up pretty quickly. It drips through the filter into the thing. If you like drip coffee,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is, you know, this is a drip coffee thing it doesn’t take too long to boil the water it’s got the same type of thing where the

⏹️ ▶️ John top dial decides what heating elements will be on and the bottom one is just a plain timer they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John even bother with little pictures of light medium and dark toast it’s like look it’s just a timer just turn it good luck

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t give you any guidance there and it’s good thing they don’t give you any guidance because trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to toast a piece of toast in there at around five minutes and 50 seconds I gave up not being

⏹️ ▶️ John able to see any real color on the top of the toast and I took it out and the bottom was overdone a Practically

⏹️ ▶️ John black in the middle like uneven And the top had no color on it at all and that’s after almost six

⏹️ ▶️ John minutes So as a toaster it fails to toast even though you only put one piece of bread in there It fails to toast it. There is no

⏹️ ▶️ John adjustable rack by the way So I was saying maybe why is it burning on the bottom and not cooked on the top? Maybe I can move the rack up but the rack

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t adjust The top thing instead of having a full-size griddle. It has a little circular tin

⏹️ ▶️ John same problem as before It just doesn’t it doesn’t get hot enough or doesn’t like I think the real problem is doesn’t have enough thermal mass

⏹️ ▶️ John Like it’s it’s just a thin piece of metal so that when you put the egg on it It just sucks all the heat out of the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing and the heating elements don’t have enough to like keep up like I think Basically the griddle acts as a heat sink

⏹️ ▶️ John for the heating elements dissipating their heat, but not into the egg So I was able

⏹️ ▶️ John to cook and you can really only for one egg in there like it’s practically the size of a poached egg Thing right so I was able to cook one fried

⏹️ ▶️ John egg And I have to say it did a better job than the previous one and at least that one egg I was able to cook it

⏹️ ▶️ John and it came out as like an actual egg like it cooked enough to to stay together and let me flip it over

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything so but really nobody should ever buy this or the

⏹️ ▶️ John other thing it’s not good at anything that it does please just do not

⏹️ ▶️ John it is adorable though it’s been sitting in the kitchen this one even more than the red one it looks it looks adorable it looks like doll

⏹️ ▶️ John furniture looks like you have an easy bake oven on your cat looks like one of your kids toys in there but it but it really works sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well yeah it’s a very degrees of work I wish you could try the coffee

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s just this is a drip coffee it’s like a got a filter in there comes with a filter it makes the water hot it runs it through

⏹️ ▶️ John the filter drip sends it a little thing like that I don’t see how the machine itself

⏹️ ▶️ John could affect the quality of the coffee coming out of it because it really is the most primitive thing you can imagine it’s all just plastic

⏹️ ▶️ John parts inside there is nothing fancy it is not I look at the price what is this this is like $35 yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John so you getting what you’re paying for there so I think the main market for this would be

⏹️ ▶️ John Hollywood prop buyers who want to put something in the background of a scene seen in like a cute kitchen

⏹️ ▶️ John apartment in like Manhattan or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s cute I and I really do wonder like obviously there’s a market for these because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so many are for sale but I just have to wonder who is buying them suckers like people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who think

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is that great it

⏹️ ▶️ John is a it’s a great way to save counter space I have three things all in one place and again the same problems like who

⏹️ ▶️ John wants to cook on top of your toaster oven you toaster ovens are usually underneath like their overhead cabinets above it and then you’re making

⏹️ ▶️ John hot steam go into the bottom of your cabinets it’s just not a good idea even if it worked it wouldn’t be a good idea and it just does

⏹️ ▶️ John like seriously can’t even toast one slice of bread in six minutes forget it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the best thing is this has a four-star average review on Amazon with 240 reviews

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how

⏹️ ▶️ John it has to be paid for I don’t know maybe they just don’t know how these things are supposed to operate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything’s smaller than expected but works as promised verified purchase

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the toaster oven was probably the biggest negative it is only wide enough to fit one slice of

⏹️ ▶️ John break.

⏹️ ▶️ John Fortunately,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there is a top burner and a bottom burner so you can stack two pieces of bread on top of each other and flip them in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the middle of cooking.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s cool. I can actually take this with me when I’m on the road to set up in the hotels I stay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in

⏹️ ▶️ John the things like the drip coffee maker they have in hotels is better than this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like and those are terrible and that would be better than this

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John Because at least it’s like sturdy and doesn’t fall apart because that you have to be in a hotel room and hold some more coffee Wow,

⏹️ ▶️ John all right. Anyway, the second one let’s let’s try to you know Bring this back from the insanity

⏹️ ▶️ John of these multifunction device. Second one is just a legit toaster oven This is the KitchenAid 12 inch convection

⏹️ ▶️ John bake digital countertop oven model KC 0 to Put

⏹️ ▶️ John the URL of this one in the chat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco room for everybody. This is a high priced one. This is $187. Yeah, this is a fancy toaster oven.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re back to normal looking things. The first thing you have to know about this is it’s really big. I know they all look the same size

⏹️ ▶️ John on Amazon. I have a pretty big toaster, the Breville 650 XL. This is really big. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John the bigger Breville. It’s so big that I think it really is beyond what is reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ John for most people’s kitchens. you have a really, really big house, this will be to scale. It’s kind of like when you have like a

⏹️ ▶️ John big room, you have

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to put a big sofa in

⏹️ ▶️ John it. That’s a lot of you know, for interior design, you have to scale the furniture to the room.

⏹️ ▶️ John Unfortunately, I like to scale the furniture to the people but no matter how big you are, if you have a really small room and you put a gigantic

⏹️ ▶️ John puffy leather sofa in it, it will over overwhelm the room. And similarly, if you have a cavernous room and you want to put this delicate little

⏹️ ▶️ John sofa in it, it won’t quite look right. So anyway, this is a big toaster oven. So do not

⏹️ ▶️ John buy this unless you have a really big kitchen or you really want to dedicate that much space to it. It’s tall, it’s wide, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John deep, it’s humongous. When I put this on my counter, since I have narrow New England ancient countertops,

⏹️ ▶️ John opening the door, practically, that’s it. There’s no more counter space left. There’s a toaster, I can open the door, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t remember if the door overhangs the edge of my counter, but it’s close. This thing is huge. It’s stainless steel, just like in the

⏹️ ▶️ John picture, that is actual stainless steel, not plastic colored stainless steel. Very sturdy construction. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John even the handle is stainless steel, which occasionally the handle will be like plastic for like insulation.

⏹️ ▶️ John It feels rugged. It feels, you know, it looks nice and glossy. Everything feels thick.

⏹️ ▶️ John The, the wire rack feels incredibly rugged, thick gauge wire.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s actually on this little metal strip on the front of it. Everything is very solid. The door feels solid.

⏹️ ▶️ John It opens and closes solidly. It’s got the little, not little rubber stoppers, big rubber stoppers on it.

⏹️ ▶️ John The spring tension is just right. Doesn’t, doesn’t wobble. Doesn’t creak three positions for the rack.

⏹️ ▶️ John and they have little instructions printed on the thing about what the different positions are for. There’s five heating elements,

⏹️ ▶️ John four of those thin resistive style ones, plus one of the thicker quartz style ones on the top and the middle.

⏹️ ▶️ John It has a huge thick cord, like one of those for a power tool, like your Makita

⏹️ ▶️ John drill or something, like a big three-prong cord with a very thick cable and the big connector. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know why these guys do this, because don’t they know it has to go in the kitchen? Like where do they think people are plugging in their toaster ovens? Like you’re gonna put it on your counter

⏹️ ▶️ John and then you’re gonna plug it in and the plug is gonna be just above your counter, right? The plug sticks out like three inches

⏹️ ▶️ John from the place where you plug it in because it’s a huge three-prong connector, right? It’s not, they need to make flush mount

⏹️ ▶️ John plugs. You know how they, you know, those little adapters they sell for them? You have to make it, like even if the plug isn’t right

⏹️ ▶️ John behind the toaster, because if it was, the toaster would be six inches away from the wall. Even if it’s not right outside, who wants to see this big,

⏹️ ▶️ John thick, like hard to manage, you know, maybe the cord has to be that thick for the power requirements, but

⏹️ ▶️ John make a flat mount plug, people. I don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Let’s see

⏹️ ▶️ John the controls on this one if you look at it are very similar to my Breville I don’t know who copied who obviously I had my rebel

⏹️ ▶️ John first So I’m thinking oh they copied the Breville’s control who knows who copied this for us, but anyway There is an LCD

⏹️ ▶️ John on top a backlit LCD on top showing you temperatures timers countdowns

⏹️ ▶️ John the same type of controls where you get to pick a temperature and like a you know and a number of slices or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John The there’s two knobs the first one is the function knob for all the different things you can do like like, you know, toast,

⏹️ ▶️ John bake, and it has things for reheat and bagel that does like, you know, different temperatures during different phases, like, for example, the bagel

⏹️ ▶️ John will do a lower temperature to toast it. And then towards the end, it will do the top elements

⏹️ ▶️ John only really high to toast the tops of the bagel assume it’s assuming you have a bagel that’s been sliced in half, you know, stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John like that. Lots of different functions, in fact, more functions in the Breville for all sorts of different things. This is also a convection

⏹️ ▶️ John oven, by the way, which is one of the reasons it’s so freakin huge, because they got to fit all the convection fans in there. So there are function settings

⏹️ ▶️ John for convection type baking to where they’ll try to bake a whole chicken and keep the air flowing and then crisp up the skin at the

⏹️ ▶️ John end and everything and then the knob below it is the control knob which really is just kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ John the the control knob in your BMWs or whatever where it’s where you just press it to select and turn to

⏹️ ▶️ John go up and down selections in a menu the knobs themselves they are not

⏹️ ▶️ John as wobbly as they are on the Breville they’re still plastic but they’re not as wobbly they don’t have as much slop they’re not made to look like fake metal which

⏹️ ▶️ John helps they’re nicer materials than the Breville ones they’re not like shiny plastic, they’re kind of like textured. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John still a little bit gritty. They’re not the best feeling knobs, but they’re better than the Breville ones, so they’re pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John good. Since the function knob on the bottom really should just be a disc, because it’s like turn left, turn right to go through

⏹️ ▶️ John a series of options and press in, it’s weird that it has like a flathead screwdriver type like

⏹️ ▶️ John indentation that they want you to pinch it because it just spins around forever. Like there’s no markings or anything, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John really just a jog dial basically, and it’s weird for a jog dial to have a part where you can grab it because then

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like when you’re done with it where do you leave it do you leave it pointing up do you like anytime you turn it

⏹️ ▶️ John it might change a number on the screen so that’s a little bit weird but I think just a different symmetry and then it’s got a start button on the bottom it’s got a little

⏹️ ▶️ John button for frozen things what is that other button for it can remember off the top my head oh and the convection button to turn

⏹️ ▶️ John convection on off so the knob feels good so so like I said higher quality than my

⏹️ ▶️ John Breville and they don’t feel like they’re shaky and they’re about to come off and they’re not fake looking like supposed to look like metal but it’s really

⏹️ ▶️ John plastic but I think the decision to make the jog dial look positional when it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John really is a little bit off plus you have to press it as a button it’s weird to press a button that’s you know that’s like a dial that

⏹️ ▶️ John you can pinch toast time four minutes and 30 seconds for a piece of toast

⏹️ ▶️ John not great the Breville is a little bit faster but this thing’s cavernous like you’d be lucky it doesn’t take eight minutes

⏹️ ▶️ John and it did a pretty decent job of toasting the convection features I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have an opportunity to test because I didn’t have anything that you would cook in convection but it has like a cookie setting and stuff so I think you could actually use

⏹️ ▶️ John this as a miniature oven

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you didn’t have an entire chicken to put in there like it’s depicted in one of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John these pictures that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a tiny chicken like this is not as tall as the super tall one was so there isn’t that much you

⏹️ ▶️ John know I was still treated as a toaster oven not as a place here like that remember the one that had the probe built in that you could

⏹️ ▶️ John that could probably fit a bigger chicken so to categorize this I would say this is most

⏹️ ▶️ John similar to the big Breville which I’ve never tested by the way and so I assume it’s okay because I have a small Breville

⏹️ ▶️ John and people who have the big Breville say it’s good, but it seems similar in terms of it feels sturdy, it looks

⏹️ ▶️ John nice, it does the job it’s supposed to do, it has enough heating elements to heat up that big interior,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I guess if you want to use it as an oven it’ll work fine too. I think the best, the things to recommend this the most are the things

⏹️ ▶️ John that I like most about my Breville. I like seeing immediately when I press the start button how long it thinks

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s going to take, because it’ll, you know, as soon as you put the pieces of toast in there you say how many pieces of toast and what

⏹️ ▶️ John level of darkness, which is a number that you can pick three, four, five, five six seven you just learn whatever darkness you like and

⏹️ ▶️ John then you press the start button and it will tell you it’ll start counting down from four minutes and 20 seconds or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John and then when you put it in the second round of bread if someone else wants toast it will start counting down from three minutes and 30 seconds because

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing has heated up right you know how long it’s gonna Take you get to see a countdown It’s easy to adjust because

⏹️ ▶️ John They get it they get around the whole problem of trying to do the darkness adjustment because it’s a number on a screen and really You’re just using a control

⏹️ ▶️ John to adjust a screen the screen really helps because then you can do countdowns and show words and numbers up there. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not like a full bitmap display. It’s a, you know, a bunch of seven segment things and a bunch of other things, but it makes a big difference.

⏹️ ▶️ John The little frozen button is surprisingly useful. It’s kind of like that little bit more button that some of the toasters have

⏹️ ▶️ John where you’re like, I’m gonna toast bread, but actually this bread is straight out of the freezer. So put it on the same toast setting you always

⏹️ ▶️ John want, but then hit the little snowflake button, and it will just add a little bit more to get it defrosted before it goes into the

⏹️ ▶️ John toast cycle. So overall, if you want a really big toaster, and considering

⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t tested the really big Breville, this is the best really big toaster I’ve ever tried. It is

⏹️ ▶️ John a solid quality product. It does all the jobs it’s supposed to do. If you, as they say,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you have the space, I can recommend it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow. So if you have the means, you highly suggest picking one up?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, no, it is a quality product.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Now, since

⏹️ ▶️ John this is the last one, I know I was making that reference. Since this is the last one

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of

⏹️ ▶️ John these we’re doing, a lot of people have asked about the Sweet Homes toaster reviews. Their number one pick was one of the toasters

⏹️ ▶️ John that I did review a while back. It was the really tall Panasonic one that was really, really fast.

⏹️ ▶️ John And people are asking, what do you think of their reviews? They do actual product reviews, not joke ad product

⏹️ ▶️ John review things. So go read their reviews. They actually test them. They put a million pieces of bread into all these things.

⏹️ ▶️ John My criteria may be different than theirs, but I’m not doing the kind of testing they’re doing. you if you really care about toasters.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now that said, having used the one they picked as a top pick, the reason I don’t like it is because I think the UI is weird and

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s oddly shaped. But it does toast things really fast and really efficiently and does a good job on them.

⏹️ ▶️ John But for my purposes I want to be able to put four slices of bread in there or a whole tray

⏹️ ▶️ John full of English muffin pizzas or something and they just won’t fit in the toaster because it’s just not big enough and so it

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t fill anything. The UI is just crazy with the membrane buttons and all the different functions. The Breville

⏹️ ▶️ John interface and this interface are just way better but that matters less to them in their rating they’re mostly saying what when the bread

⏹️ ▶️ John comes out how does it look and has it taste and that toaster that Panasonic toaster

⏹️ ▶️ John toast spread really fast and does a good job on it so I don’t disagree or agree with their ratings I just know

⏹️ ▶️ John what I want out of my toasters and that’s that’s what I’m reviewing. This whole

⏹️ ▶️ Casey year we’ve had toaster reviews from Carbs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Against

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Humanity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the last one. Great idea. This is their idea. Fantastic idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We all had a great time and yeah, thanks a lot. But please no more toasters.

⏹️ ▶️ John I never did test the top pick the top expensive pick like sweet the sweet home has like here’s our top pick

⏹️ ▶️ John and they always try to take budget into consideration and they always have like if you have a little bit more money this one’s even better

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not better enough that we think it’s worth it but it’s a little bit better and i i have not tested that toaster whatever that toaster is i’m actually

⏹️ ▶️ John curious about it maybe if my thing ever dies i’ll take it and by the way i didn’t say but a couple of i guess a

⏹️ ▶️ John couple months ago at this point i did finally open up my breville and adjust the stupid springs and the door doesn’t spring open

⏹️ ▶️ John nice our spring closed rather which was a real pain man i i could i literally could not

⏹️ ▶️ John figure how to get this toaster apart without breaking it. Luckily I can get to the spring without actually fully disassembling it but I think

⏹️ ▶️ John I need one of those eye opener things from iFixit that like heats up some glue or something. I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco don’t know what the hell is holding this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing together but it is there are a lot of screws and it is very solidly constructed so I was just lucky

⏹️ ▶️ John I could get through it to the point where I could get to the spring and adjust the tension.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Goodness I’m gonna miss these reviews. You sure you don’t want any more toasters?

⏹️ ▶️ John No I just I think I have like three three or four left the ship out of here and then no more.

⏹️ ▶️ John No more, please. They’re just too big.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ll have to send you small objects to review.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’ll review diamonds.

⏹️ ▶️ John Slightly included.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see what you did there. What are the five C’s? or four Cs, rather.

Headphone-port rumors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, all right, so we should probably talk about what went on this week. Can we talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the headphone jack business really quickly?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh boy, would I like to talk about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So there are rumors based on an interesting translation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from some Japanese site. I don’t think we even have the link in the show notes, do we?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I mean, the source of this is pretty unreliable. I think based on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rumor and based on some things that we’ve looked at here and there and been told here and there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It sure seems like this rumor has no more credibility than any other random rumor that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco find with poor sourcing on the Internet. So the rumor itself has no credibility, really.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it is, I think, worth talking about. Would Apple do this? And what would be the ramifications?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the rumor may not like the specifics of the room. We’re like, we think the iPhone seven, which will be the next major

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone that Apple makes, is going to have this feature. Well, you know, whatever. Maybe it seems like like the sourcing for

⏹️ ▶️ John that is not great. But we do know for a fact that you can plug compatible

⏹️ ▶️ John headphones into the lightning port on your existing iPhones and they will work as headphones. Like that Apple has already added

⏹️ ▶️ John headphone support to the lightning port for iPhones. And that you can buy, I don’t know who buys these

⏹️ ▶️ John things, but you can, we’ll put a link in the show notes, headphones right now today that have at the end of them, instead of

⏹️ ▶️ John the 3.5 millimeter headphone jack, have a lightning port and plug them into your existing iPhone and it will work fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you have to think, why would Apple do that? If at some point it wasn’t at least considering,

⏹️ ▶️ John are

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco we

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna keep that headphone jack? Are we maybe, are we gonna have that all the time? You know, the things are getting thinner. Maybe we should

⏹️ ▶️ John start thinking about what we’re gonna do. It doesn’t mean they’re gonna make a phone without one ever even, but they did do something

⏹️ ▶️ John that opens the door for this. That’s why people take these rumors vaguely seriously. And I think before the last iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ John or maybe it was for the iPhone 6, same rumors were out there because people were hearing about headphone support

⏹️ ▶️ John for the lightning port. and lo and behold that actually exists and is a thing and is there right

⏹️ ▶️ John now. So that’s why I think this is worth entertaining because Apple would not both implement and ship something

⏹️ ▶️ John like that if it hadn’t considered very seriously the idea of ditching the headphone port at some point in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, so the idea of ditching the headphone port, first of all, the rumor is that they would ditch the headphone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco port in order to make the iPhone a millimeter thinner. And this was covered pretty well this week’s episode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the talk show with John Gruber and John Maltz. So I don’t wanna go too far into this they literally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gave an hour to it. It was pretty good. So, but the short version is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t need to ditch the headphone jack to get that extra millimeter today because the current generation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of iPod Touches still has the headphone jack and is at least that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much thinner. So, you don’t need to do that. Now, granted you could and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could make other gains. We’re getting to the point now where making the phone noticeably thinner

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will require dropping things that people tend to like in their phones, like the headphone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco port and like good cameras. So let’s see what they do in that area. Maybe they can make different advances, we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But right now, thinness alone is probably not a good enough reason yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t listen to that episode, but they talk about the slimmed down 3.5 millimeter jack.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They didn’t. Yeah, it wasn’t. Didn’t Apple like change the way it was built and make a special one or something like that? There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple patent, which again, Apple patents everything. It’s an Apple Insider link. It’s basically like a regular headphone jack,

⏹️ ▶️ John but with the one side filed down to be flat. I just put the link in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And there is, by the way, there is also so the the the headphone jack that most people think of is a 3.5

⏹️ ▶️ Marco millimeter jack. There’s also a 2.5 millimeter version that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has existed forever also, just like all the other ones. So there is a smaller version

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the standard headphone jack that is occasionally used on things. In fact, a lot of headphones, if the headphone that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using is has a detachable cable, there’s a pretty decent chance that the end of the cable that plugs into the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco earcup might have that size plug on it. A lot of them do. So those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plugs exist. They could switch to that and gain a whole extra millimeter, which is a pretty big deal at this scale.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, granted, again, they don’t need to yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John Although for the 2.5 one, I think one of the reasons that they would want to stay away from that is,

⏹️ ▶️ John I know from having kids that it’s possible to bend 3.5 millimeter one just from kids bumping

⏹️ ▶️ John it around, 2.5 would bend even easier. Maybe adults don’t do this, but it’s getting,

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of getting to the point where you don’t want that one to be on there, because I think the 2.5 millimeter is easier

⏹️ ▶️ John to bend than lightning. And I don’t know, if any, maybe this is just me, but anyone who has kids

⏹️ ▶️ John who use their iOS devices, like that they get to use all the time that are theirs, go to all of them and take the kids’

⏹️ ▶️ John headphones, plug them into the jack, and then rotate them and see if they actually are still straight on axis.

⏹️ ▶️ John It seems like every one that my kids touch, not massively bent but bent enough that you can

⏹️ ▶️ John see that seriously yeah just wait it’ll happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah so anyway assume Apple does this what is that so assume they get rid of the headphone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco jack and the only way you can plug headphones or the only way you can use headphones with an iPhone is either over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Bluetooth or through lightning so what does that mean in practice and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve heard I mean I don’t have real job but I’ve heard a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey real jobs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listen to music on their phones for a big chunk of the workday through headphones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at work. For whatever reason, they either can’t or don’t want to use music services on the work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer itself, so they plug into the phone and use a streaming service or the music library

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on their phone to listen to music at work. Most of the time I would expect the phone to be plugged

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in during this process. If you do this, if you have it so that that jack has gone away,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chances are Apple would probably probably ship a little dongle for between $20 and $40

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would basically be a lightning to 3.5mm headphone adapter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we’ve seen how they do these things, chances are it would not have a lightning pass-through

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to also charge the phone. Chances are this would be a one plug thing, one plug on each end,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that would be it. Similarly, lightning headphones would have the same problem, where lightning headphones don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a lightning pass-through port to also simultaneously charge the phone while you’re listening

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the headphones. So chances are if they did this you could no longer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listen to the phone while it was being charged unless you abandon wires completely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and go to Bluetooth.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well I mean a million third parties would sell adapters for it and by the way I see people listening to their phones at work and none of them

⏹️ ▶️ John have it plugged in so maybe they just like it because but the screen is often it’s just playing audio even if maybe it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John playing like Spotify and streaming stuff it’s not that bad or maybe two people just don’t care but yeah if

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple didn’t build it somebody would because it would eminently buildable. So I don’t, I don’t think that would be

⏹️ ▶️ John a significant deterrent to doing this. And I don’t think it would preclude people from charging their phone while they listen, because

⏹️ ▶️ John they just make an adapter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And also consider that the official Apple, what I always get the name

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of this wrong, but the H the lightning AV connector, whatever it is that we talked about last episode,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your favorite thing in the world. Yeah. Like my favorite thing in the world. Um, this thing does have a lightning pass

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through. I actually think you’re right, right, Marco, that it’s unlikely that that’s the approach Apple would take for this, because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s far more likely that they would just—they would assume that listening would not be all day long and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you wouldn’t need to charge as you listen. But there is a precedent for them doing something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with a lightning pass-through. And the whole reason there’s a lightning pass-through on this cable is so that you can charge your phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey while you’re displaying whatever you have on the phone on a TV or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. So that is one thing that would be inconvenient or problematic for people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they did this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the main inconvenient thing, of course, is that you can’t use your old headphones, even if they ship an adapter, even if you don’t need to charge,

⏹️ ▶️ John having to have an adapter is annoying. That is the main inconvenience is, but what about all my headphones?

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t want to use an adapter and it’s just not elegant or nice or whatever. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John that was the last time we had this discussion with when the rumors of lightning port headphone support

⏹️ ▶️ John were out there. Same thing. It’s like, well, I don’t want to not have all my headphones and

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that’s what everybody says. Anytime a port gets, you know, I don’t want to lose all my charging cables. I don’t want to not be able to use

⏹️ ▶️ John all my docs when they change from 30 pin. But the headphone port, as many people have pointed out on Twitter and elsewhere,

⏹️ ▶️ John is way older than the 30 pin connector and is not as terrible as the 30 pin connector. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s fairly solid port. You can’t put it in the wrong way. It’s pretty sturdy. It’s been around by I saw some estimates

⏹️ ▶️ John of being like 90 80 90 years depending on how you measure. 400 I forget

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I mean it has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this minor problem of shorting itself out when you plug it in but you know other than that it’s okay

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah I you know it’s not it’s not the best in the world but like with all with all these things like the thing that came to mind to

⏹️ ▶️ John me is VGA ports VGA ports granted aren’t weren’t around since 1910 fine

⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re around for a long time and they had limitations there were obvious especially

⏹️ ▶️ John as we went from analog to digital video with like DVI connections and HDMI and DisplayPort and stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ John that but VGI was like the VGA was like the standard you go into a conference room they have VGA connectors

⏹️ ▶️ John and what eventually did VGA connectors in was not all the things I just listed which should have been

⏹️ ▶️ John obvious like you can’t keep doing VGA you’re going to constantly convert to analog it’s just terrible and then the resolution

⏹️ ▶️ John limits and like we have all these digital standards why wouldn’t you switch those what did VGA in is

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually everybody’s laptops are too damn small to fit a VGA port on the side that’s what did

⏹️ ▶️ John it is just I mean you can I know you can still find it on your dells I know they like they

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco make laptops

⏹️ ▶️ John that are like exactly the thickness of a VGA port. I think I even saw one where the tops and bottoms of the VGA port

⏹️ ▶️ John were basically there was no like plastic above and below them. They were just you know what I mean like it was

⏹️ ▶️ John there was no like thing to shove the VGA port into it was just like there was like a notch cut out and the VGA port was there so

⏹️ ▶️ John when you plugged in something the plug would be thicker than the thing. Anyway that’s what eventually did in VGA

⏹️ ▶️ John ports certainly on the Mac and on a lot of other slim laptops that are out there because if you want to have a really slim that

⏹️ ▶️ John top the VGA port is just too darn big. So that future is lurking out there probably

⏹️ ▶️ John in you know in the possibly distant future but who knows for smartphones because

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually we’ll be able to get smartphones thin enough that the port will be thicker than the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now we were already there with with high-quality cameras as Marco pointed out before that the phone is already thicker than

⏹️ ▶️ John the camera and we just make the camera poke out so who’s to say you couldn’t have a credit card thin iPhone 15

⏹️ ▶️ John years from now and hanging off the edge of it a 3.5 inch thing you know what I mean

⏹️ ▶️ John like it would be this big lump this big silly lump thing but it wouldn’t detract too

⏹️ ▶️ John much from the thinness of the phone it would still be in a situation where then if you drop your phone it would flutter harmlessly

⏹️ ▶️ John to the ground and you would pick it up and the fact the fact that it has a silly headphone port poking out

⏹️ ▶️ John of it wouldn’t bother anybody I’m not sure the headphone port is raised

⏹️ ▶️ John to the level where we’re willing to say you know what even when our phone is the thickness of a credit card,

⏹️ ▶️ John I will be perfectly fine with there being a 3.5 inch headphone jack on there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of course, at that point, lightning will also be too thick. In thinking about this, I think we can all agree, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t want to make this infinite time scale argument, but this may

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco literally be one. But you

⏹️ ▶️ John finally said it! I know, well, you guys keep using the phrase, but this may be an actual application of it, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, look, that port is going to go away eventually. It just is, right? Yeah. The question is,

⏹️ ▶️ John is this the year that it goes away? In terms of timing, say you were like the grand pooh bah of like when

⏹️ ▶️ John ports go away across the industry which Apple kind of is because once they make a move everyone yells at them and says they’re stupid for

⏹️ ▶️ John doing it and then does the same thing five years later or two years later or one year later. See also floppy

⏹️ ▶️ John drives and getting rid of legacy ports although PCs have been much slower about that. Is this

⏹️ ▶️ John the year to do it? Would you do it this year? With the iPhone 7 I mean? Would you decide that this is the year to do it or

⏹️ ▶️ John would you wait until you have to do it for some thickness reason? Because I agree with Marco that they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have to do it for a thickness reason, but would you do it anyway to sort of say, we want to get the

⏹️ ▶️ John pain over with now? Or would you wait until everything goes USB-C and you finally give up on lightning in six years?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can look at this and you like to me there’s so many downsides to doing this. First of all, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think this would this would cause a substantial loss of goodwill.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This would be a big deal. You know, look at how many people complained for so long and got so mad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the switch to lightning at all. To have them also basically make everyone’s headphones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obsolete or make them worse by having them requiring some dongle to be plugged in, this would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really, really big problem for their goodwill and customer satisfaction and for the press’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco impression of the phone and what everyday people, what all people end up thinking about it and thinking about them.

⏹️ ▶️ John How many iPhone buyers do you think use headphones other than the ones that come with the iPhone? I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can look at beats as a pretty big example that it’s a pretty big number. I mean I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think that the market for aftermarket headphones is pretty healthy right now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I very rarely see people using the earbuds anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John See I’m trying to think of what I see people using and I mostly see people using the earbuds. You’re right that the

⏹️ ▶️ John big headphones, the next thing I would say is if they’re not using earbuds what are they using? I would say they’re using something

⏹️ ▶️ John like beats whether they’re real beats or beats ripoffs or just large big, big headphones like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I don’t know. There are upsides to this for people who sell headphones,

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously, right? Because even the people who sell earbuds suddenly get to

⏹️ ▶️ John to increase their margins. Because previously, they were selling out, hey, you broke or lost

⏹️ ▶️ John your the things that came with your Apple earbuds, you like earbuds, you’d like to they’re small, you don’t want big

⏹️ ▶️ John beat size things, but you lost or have broke them and you want a replacement and you don’t want to pay for apples. Buy ours

⏹️ ▶️ John which are $3 cheaper than apples but our margins are huge because these earbuds are pieces

⏹️ ▶️ John of crap and they have a lightning port on them so these are made for iPhone, iPhone compatible

⏹️ ▶️ John earpods or whatever. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right this is a way for Apple to not only sell a very large number of high volume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dongles and accessories to adapt old headphones but it’s also a way now for Apple to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through the MFI program to take a royalty on every headphone sold. Like, that’s…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of course… I mean, look, you can look at this as, you know, the various

⏹️ ▶️ Marco benefits that this might bring. You can look at it as the various downsides it might bring, and I’ll address Bluetooth separately, because Bluetooth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a whole different story. But, you know, if you’re still staying wired… I hate to be cynical

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about this, but I think a realistic way to think about this is, would today’s Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really today’s Apple, not the Apple that we want to exist, but the actual Apple that does exist today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Would today’s Apple make an already very thin device even thinner

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the expense of usefulness in the real world and in a way that would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco increase the average selling price of their best-selling product by designing it to basically require

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-margin accessories at the expense of customer satisfaction and goodwill? Yes, of course they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would. They do this all the

⏹️ ▶️ John time now. depends on how much customer satisfaction and goodwill. That’s why when I if I keep

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking about this, if I was going to run a meeting on this at Apple, the first thing I would say is before we even

⏹️ ▶️ John discuss this headphone things, we have to decide if we’re ever going to go USB. Are we going to stick with lightning if we’re going to stick for lightning

⏹️ ▶️ John as lightning on a 10 year plan? Or is it not like are we ever got because

⏹️ ▶️ John lightning and USB C are really similar to the to the point where like lightning was important

⏹️ ▶️ John for Apple to have because they had it for years before USB C came out right but and the USB-C is here now. So

⏹️ ▶️ John how many more years do we give Lightning or are we committed to Lightning? Is it really on a 10 year plan

⏹️ ▶️ John and we’re not even gonna consider an alternative until 10 years are up? Because you have to have that discussion first because it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John just that we’re saying get rid of the headphone port. It’s get rid of the headphone port and the place where you plug it in is this

⏹️ ▶️ John Lightning port. And you really don’t wanna do a thing where we had Lightning for a while, then we got rid of the headphone port and all

⏹️ ▶️ John the headphones had to be Lightning. And then a couple of years after that, we got rid of Lightning and all the headphones had to be USB-C or some crap

⏹️ ▶️ John like that. that is really bad in the long timeline for customer satisfaction. I think you can only absorb a certain

⏹️ ▶️ John number of these, we’re getting rid of the floppy drive type of revolutions. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John stack them that close together. So I think you really have to plan this thing out. And I think you should plan it because

⏹️ ▶️ John like I said, it’s gonna go away eventually. Eventually the phone’s gonna get so thin that you’re gonna have to make really difficult choices about bulges

⏹️ ▶️ John and crap like that. And if anyone’s gonna get rid of it on their phones, it’s probably gonna be Apple, because that’s their thing. They always

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, they’re more willing to get rid of it. Even today’s Apple that sells millions millions of these iPhones,

⏹️ ▶️ John they are the ones who are going to be more willing to get rid of this. You just have to put it on the plan. And right now,

⏹️ ▶️ John if the plan is not to keep lightning for a long, long time, now is not the time to get rid of the 3.5 inch port.

⏹️ ▶️ John If they do get rid of it, it’s not like they’re going to make an announcement and say, yeah, we’re getting rid of the headphone short. And by the way, our current

⏹️ ▶️ John plan is to keep lightning around for at least five more, six more years. So don’t even think about USB-C. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to happen. Your investment in lightning headphones will last you several years, many years.

⏹️ ▶️ John feel too bad about it but they’re not gonna say that so it’ll be sort of an unknown if I had to

⏹️ ▶️ John put money on it right now I would say I would bet against not strongly against

⏹️ ▶️ John like you know 51 49 percentage wise but I would have bet against the

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone 7 dropping the headphone port because I don’t see a reason for it and I don’t feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John now is the time because I really think that they will reconsider lightning sooner rather than later

⏹️ ▶️ John so I think they can hold out until they reconsider lightning in a couple of years and

⏹️ ▶️ John then they can get rid of the port because then they actually will probably need it thickness wise but but I

⏹️ ▶️ John do think that they should do it before they definitely before they really need to the first phone they do it on won’t be because they just couldn’t do it

⏹️ ▶️ John any other way it’ll be because they were just they were they wanted to set things up they wanted to take the hit when

⏹️ ▶️ John they were gonna take the hit set things up and then and then by the time they really really need it it’s already kind of like lightning like

⏹️ ▶️ John do they have to go to the lightning for the first phone that had it or could they have wedged a 30 pin on it they it could have fit a 30 pin on there. It would

⏹️ ▶️ John have fit technically. It would have been maybe awkward or whatever, but it could have fit. But they didn’t wait until they absolutely desperately

⏹️ ▶️ John needed lightning. And they did lightning when it looked very small on the end of the phone. And now the phones are slowly

⏹️ ▶️ John shrinking down around it. And I think that’s what they’ll do with the headphone replacement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think you’re right. And I also, I think, you know, this is absolutely the kind of thing Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would do. All the downsides be damned, they would definitely do it because, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it makes things thinner, even though we don’t need them to be, but it makes things thinner. and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes them more money. So they would absolutely do it. But I don’t think they’re going to do it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this year. I don’t think they need to yet, and I don’t think it makes sense.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t think it’s gonna happen either, but personally, I wouldn’t be that bothered by it. I almost

⏹️ ▶️ Casey never use Bluetooth headphones with my phone, but I might be the only person on the planet that isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey particularly bothered by Bluetooth headphones. I use Bluetooth headphones at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey work all day, every day, and they’re connected to my Mac, not my phone. They are very cheap headphones.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think they were $25 new when I bought them literally four years ago. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the battery lasts at least a day, if not a couple of days, the latency.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. If I hit pause, it doesn’t pause instantly, but there’s no latency. When I watch videos,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s none of the qualm or I don’t feel any of the qualms that so many people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seem to feel when they use Bluetooth headphones. So if that means if, if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Bluetooth is our future, Bluetooth only is our future or some silly dongle, I don’t think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey such a terrible future. I think that Apple will get eviscerated in their customers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, but I don’t think it’s such a terrible future. We’ve been as Mac users,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is different, but as Mac users, laptop users, we’ve had stupid display dongles forever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m very over, I’m overjoyed that this new MacBook pro that I have as an HDMI port, but generally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking, we’ve had to use silly dongles all the time. If you’re one who

⏹️ ▶️ Casey uses most iPhone battery packs, most of the ones that I’ve ever seen,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s something in the way of the headphone port. So if your headphone jack

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is any bigger than the headphone port, like the ones that I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bought always include a one or two inch little extension so you can clear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the battery case and then plug in your headphone to the little extension. Like none of these things are that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey terribly new. And again I just if Bluetooth is our future

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. Sorry Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well it’s not Bluetooth it’s it’s kind of like the move to the watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like here is something else that is more expensive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than what it might have replaced based on a lot of software and flaky standards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it’s a little bit unreliable. There’s some lag involved in common actions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s one more thing that needs to be charged and put on an upgrade cycle. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think we, you know, we have so many of these things in the world. And I say this as a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco user of the phone and the watch and Bluetooth headphones. Most of the time when I’m using my phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for audio playback, most of the time I’m using Bluetooth headphones because most of the time I’m listening to podcasts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my little Sennheiser PX210BT, which are amazing headphones, although they’re not made anymore, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MM400X is basically the same thing. I love those headphones for podcasts, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re flaky. They need to be charged. It is kind of annoying. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in many ways, this is a step forward, but like force touch, it’s a step forward

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s also kind of a step sideways and that’s kind of worse in some ways and more complicated.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show. He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S. and Israel. Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey SIFMA. Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC. Member NYSE & SIPC, a Fidelity Investments company. His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered on the website at He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Israel. Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA. fast via lightning. Would that make it easier on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of us? I was going to say regular people, but it would make it easier on me too. Would that make it easier on all of us if you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could get a couple of hours worth of listening off of a five-minute charge?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, the charging is one downside of many. It’s the unreliability,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the extra battery power that the phone needs to send the signal, which then makes the phone’s battery life worse.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, there’s a lot of little downsides to Bluetooth, and the reason I use it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it is really convenient when I’m walking around. These headphones sound like complete garbage,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and most Bluetooth headphones I have heard sound either mediocre to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad. A lot of people say, oh, well, Bluetooth is a bad-sounding protocol.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is, but most of the sound problems people have with Bluetooth headphones are because the headphones themselves are mediocre,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the drivers are mediocre, the whole design of the headphones is mediocre. They just sound bad because usually you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can plug them in with a cable and you can hear the sound just as bad over a cable. But the world of Bluetooth is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not all bad. And I think ultimately enough people are gonna be using Bluetooth headphones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco often enough over time that when they do finally kill the 3.5 inch jack,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I don’t think is happening this year, but when they finally do it, a big portion of people won’t be affected at all because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they will already have moved on to Bluetooth. But we are not there yet. and it isn’t all good.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Bluetooth keeps evolving too, the different versions of the standard. So you think eventually by the time,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, in many more years, it will still be Bluetooth, but probably Bluetooth in name only,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we’ll maybe use different signaling and, you know, different frequencies and different,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, compression strategies or whatever, like, that it will, and hopefully the stacks that do

⏹️ ▶️ John it will be more reliable, that will have evolved to the point where it passes that threshold

⏹️ ▶️ John of flakiness. you know, because I think Bluetooth has been getting better, certainly in terms of power consumption, Bluetooth has been getting

⏹️ ▶️ John better. So it doesn’t drain your battery as much when you got the, you know, Bluetooth 4.0, whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John things this, all these ones that take less energy from your phone, and I assume take a little bit less energy

⏹️ ▶️ John for your headphones, or maybe they’re just passive receivers. But anyway, what I always think about is Bluetooth

⏹️ ▶️ John earbuds, because I hate having cords, I hate cords getting tangled up and stuff, you know, it would just be much more convenient if I

⏹️ ▶️ John could stick my phone in my pocket. And what I want is earbuds, because I don’t, you know, I’m listening to podcasts, I don’t care.

⏹️ ▶️ John put little earbuds in my ears and then I would probably lose them so they have to be magnetic and maybe they could be magnetic and stick to the

⏹️ ▶️ John back of the phone and inductively charge when they’re not using them like that that is the the wireless future but

⏹️ ▶️ John I think Apple will ditch the headphone port before wireless standards are

⏹️ ▶️ John as good as we would all like them to be like I guess what is that threshold is it like Wi-Fi

⏹️ ▶️ John Wi-Fi is Wi-Fi I guess Wi-Fi is above the threshold of flakiness Wi-Fi

⏹️ ▶️ John is way more reliable than Bluetooth it’s still kind of flaky with some people though or maybe just, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what, obviously the signal strength where you’re in some weird corner of your house and you have lead in your walls

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know, tough luck, right? But for places where you get good signal, but you are losing Wi

⏹️ ▶️ John Fi that I don’t I don’t hear many stories about it certainly doesn’t happen on Macs or when it does, like it’s a big deal in the Apple community,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, the new version of OS 10 screws up Wi Fi, like we demand it to be reliable. It’s like if I can get a signal,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I have enough bars on my little display, I want that connection to stay up and if it doesn’t, something

⏹️ ▶️ John is terribly wrong and Apple needs to have a class action lawsuit against it. Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Meanwhile,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if somebody screwed up Bluetooth, you wouldn’t even notice,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? It’s up Bluetooth again. I mean, like I said, in my in my crappy car, when I get in, I just have to wait to see.

⏹️ ▶️ John So first of all, if I don’t have the source set to Bluetooth, like if the source is set to something else, Bluetooth doesn’t even appear in the list of

⏹️ ▶️ John sources for a while. So I have to listen to am or FM or iPod or something else while I wait, I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John turn the system off because that will not, you know, initiate the process of getting Bluetooth set up. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to wait until Bluetooth appears as a source and then select it which is annoying. Well that’s just your car. And if Bluetooth

⏹️ ▶️ John is already selected, say Bluetooth says I haven’t changed the selection, I get in the car, I start the engine,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a long time before I hear anything coming out of there. I have to wait and wait. I don’t know what it’s doing, is it booting

⏹️ ▶️ John up, is it trying to find my phone? Usually it finds it. Maybe 99% of the time it finds it after 5

⏹️ ▶️ John or 6 seconds. Sometimes it doesn’t find it and I have to go to like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John connect to audio device and it’s already it shows itself already being connected but going through that

⏹️ ▶️ John thing in the menu makes it connect anyway like I said yeah Bluetooth well you know Bluetooth is

⏹️ ▶️ John way too flaky now and if it was messed up in some way I would never notice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you say that but what do you use well I can’t ask you this most

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people however probably use a Bluetooth keyboard and or Bluetooth pointing device

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for any sort of Mac that lives on a desk for any amount of time Yes, I know that there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a crud load of Mac laptops. I know that most people probably use the onboard pointing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey device and keyboard, but for those that have an iMac, those are almost certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to be Bluetooth. So if they really hosed up the Bluetooth stack on OS X, I think we’d know it and I think we’d know it pretty quick.

⏹️ ▶️ John What I’ve had that’s been the most reliable, like the most frequent wireless accessory that we use in our house

⏹️ ▶️ John that I found to be more reliable than Bluetooth stuff, like say the Magic Trackpad, which I have now, and

⏹️ ▶️ John my non-Magic Trackpad, which I also have, my old Bluetooth keyboard which I have which I use with my iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John which granted is not OS 10 anyway is the little Logitech thing with the crazy little

⏹️ ▶️ John USB plug you know RF dongle thing it’s not Bluetooth it’s whatever Logitech silly proprietary

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is that silly proprietary thing the batteries last forever and it

⏹️ ▶️ John always works and there are no drivers to install and so I always think Bluetooth why can’t you

⏹️ ▶️ John be like the stupid Logitech dongle like what is it that they’re doing is it shorter range is it just because it’s non-standard

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever the hell they’re doing, you do that because it always works. It never doesn’t work.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s very frustrating. I mean, I understand there’s probably technical issues involved and Bluetooth is a more sophisticated protocol and they

⏹️ ▶️ John can do stuff like audio and it’s not just, you know, sending mouse positions, but Logitech, I bet when they were doing

⏹️ ▶️ John their products on it, it’s like, oh, Bluetooth is the next big thing. You should really get on Bluetooth. And I’m sure Logitech does make Bluetooth

⏹️ ▶️ John mice, but whoever said, you know what? No, we’re going to stick with these stupid dongles. They were kind of right because

⏹️ ▶️ John those

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey things

⏹️ ▶️ John always

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hate those stupid dongles with all my being. Here again, I don’t mind Bluetooth. If Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does kill the headphone jack in the next iPhone or in a iPhone, do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they include some sort of dongle-y, adapter-y thing in the box or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do they include some sort of like Bluetooth earbud sort of thing? I think they would include

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some sort of Bluetooth earbud sort of thing, but what do you think, Marco? I would say neither.

⏹️ ▶️ John You really think so? He’s the pessimist. the pessimist. Look,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is today’s Apple. Let’s be realistic here. This is a way for them to make another 40 bucks on every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sale. There is no way that gets included in the box. No way.

⏹️ ▶️ John I say there’s no way they include Bluetooth headphones because that is an upsell. That is an optional accessory.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you’re not getting Bluetooth headphones in the box, at least for the first version. Eventually, when wireless becomes so pervasive

⏹️ ▶️ John that no one has the concept of plugging in a mouse or a keyboard or something eventually, then maybe you put it from the

⏹️ ▶️ John first version. No, but I think they would include the adapter for the same reason that they felt bad and included

⏹️ ▶️ John the magsafe one to two adapter in boxes for a million products for a long time

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they would include the 3.5 inch adapter because what they for that first one that was a long time ago

⏹️ ▶️ John I know but for that first one I feel like they they’re gonna want to do something to stem

⏹️ ▶️ John the tide of angry people who whose headphones don’t work anymore so I think and because that adapter would probably

⏹️ ▶️ John be super cheap and passive that they would put it in the box.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John find out. We’ll all probably all live long enough to find out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This one is not an infinite time scale.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would not bet heavily on my thing that they’re going to include the adapter because Marco is right. Not putting the adapter

⏹️ ▶️ John would totally be an Apple thing to do, but it’s just such an easy thing to do to really help with the

⏹️ ▶️ John initial impact of the initial anger over breaking people’s headphones that it’s so

⏹️ ▶️ John small and so cheap like the little MagSafe 1 to 2. It’s the same situation. Like, oh, we’re breaking people’s

⏹️ ▶️ John things. In fact, I bet the MagSafe 1 to 2 adapter was more expensive to manufacture than the Lightning

⏹️ ▶️ John to 3.5 would be.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I mean, so the more likely thing. So, so part of the rumor on this on this rumor site was that it would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the the translation was kind of weird saying like it would be a special new Lightning port that would allow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pass through of audio because the thing is You can’t just take the digital lightning signal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have a passive adapter that just moves pins around and wires that and suddenly becomes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an amplified analog signal. So the report

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seemed to suggest that what it would do would be that if you plugged in these special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new things and the special new port that would be on these new devices, that it would still be using the DAC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and AMP in the phone, but that it would be able to route those over the lightning port

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only on this new phone that would then allow a relatively passive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device on to be the headphone side of that

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah you can’t have you can’t have an adapter if you don’t do that well you could unless you have a chip in the adapter like the stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John h264 output thing with the processor in it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah no I think that’s that’s the alternative here the alternative would be that the adapter would actually have a little USB

⏹️ ▶️ Marco DAC amp thing right in there which would which is totally possible and plausible possible. I mean, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they would not do that because like, I mean, just, just think of the lightning connectors where there’s a chip in the thing. Like there’s only

⏹️ ▶️ John so small you can make anything that involves a chip. So then you got this big stiff thing poking out of the bottom of

⏹️ ▶️ John your phone. It is not good. Like that is just, that is just not going to happen. I don’t think they will ever ship a product that’s like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. So it is also the, you know, the third option here, which is way more sensible and likely than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them shipping adapters in the box. The way more likely explanation here is that they they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would just, they would wire the port in that way so that lightning devices made in this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lightning audio headphones made in this way would work only on the port on the new devices that’s made for this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it wouldn’t work on your old phones, but they don’t care. And they would just give a version of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the ear pods that they ship now that just has a lightning plug on the end and they would include that in the box.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, of course, that’s what they ship the phone with, of course, but I think it would also come with the adapter for your old

⏹️ ▶️ John headphones. Like if you have a pair of Beats that has a 3.5, you’re gonna get the thing, it’s gonna come with plain old passive

⏹️ ▶️ John ear pods with a lightning connector in the end, yes of course, they’re not gonna be Bluetooth. And then it’ll also come,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, with a little tiny passive adapter. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see that’s the part, I don’t think they would do that these days, no. They would charge at least 20 bucks for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Remember we were talking about the USB 3 speeds on the iPad Pro, do you remember that?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John And one of the things that was like showing the internals of what the port looks like on the iFixit Teardown

⏹️ ▶️ John or something, they had like two extra contacts for the lightning port and people were speculating that it was those

⏹️ ▶️ John two extra contacts to get the USB 3 speeds because USB 3 connector has more contacts

⏹️ ▶️ John than the lightning port has contacts. That’s why I talked about that blog that I linked to saying

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t need, even though the USB 3 thing has all those extra ports, you don’t need them on lightning because USB

⏹️ ▶️ John 3 has dedicated ports for send receive at USB 2 speeds and lightning wouldn’t need that because it can repurpose

⏹️ ▶️ John the pins because it’s like a dynamic port or whatever. So then what are the two extra contacts for? there for

⏹️ ▶️ John passive audio stuff or something like that like the idea that you can get that you

⏹️ ▶️ John can find a way to without changing the physical sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John shape and size of the lightning port find a way to make that passive adapter that you can just plug

⏹️ ▶️ John in 3.5 millimeter headphone jack into without a chip or any sort of DAC in there it’s still just completely analog

⏹️ ▶️ John coming out that’s something that could be done but it but again I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John even if that type of I’m like really do you want to do this now or do you want to

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what the solution is the long-term to make It thinner because now I’m thinking about USB C USB C is not gonna add pins for

⏹️ ▶️ John analog audio anytime So maybe that’s like the advantage of lightning and the reason lightning will stick around for a long time because Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John can do stuff like this Without consulting anybody else and without worrying about no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I wouldn’t I wouldn’t assume that Lightning is going away in favor of USB C on on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the devices that currently have lightning anytime soon In fact as we see Apple keys keeps adding lightning to more devices devices. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, the Apple could have made things like the smart trackpad and keyboard and everything. They could have made those charge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over USB-C and they didn’t. They made them charge over lightning. Like all those, all those, all the peripherals,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new input devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t, my new iMac doesn’t have a USB-C port in the back of it. So they’re dragging their feet a little bit on USB-C.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yeah. Well they could have given you a cable. But, but you know, I think the reason here is, you know, Apple, Apple is very, is perfectly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine to support USB-C to, to interface with peripherals from the rest of the world,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but when it comes to their own devices, and their own devices, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the end of the plug they support, I think they’re very happy to support Lightning because it is theirs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so not only does it have more abilities than USB-C that might be useful to Apple, but again, they’re making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco licensing money on each one of those things, and they’re controlling the standard and everything. I mean, that’s everything Apple wants. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco control plus money plus smallness. I mean, that’s Apple right there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is everything they want. So they are not going to abandon lightning anytime soon. I think they would skip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB-C entirely for things like iPhones. And because it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really any smaller than lightning, is it? Or not meaningfully so. I’m guessing that the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has lightning longer than USB-C would be the thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would move to.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still hoping that my next tube-shaped Mac Pro will have along the back of

⏹️ ▶️ John it a ton of little ports that look like USB-C but are really Thunderbolt 3.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Oh no,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I think honestly I would love that and I think that’s most likely the case, although unfortunately that pushes out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like next June I think.

⏹️ ▶️ John I am nothing if not patient. That’s true. Nice.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So big actual confirmed legitimate news happened. We were

⏹️ ▶️ Casey told at WWDC that Swift would be open source by the end of the year. And with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not too much time to spare, Swift has been open sourced. I am

⏹️ ▶️ Casey genuinely impressed. The thing that impressed me most, which I didn’t realize at first, was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the entire commit history, as far as we can tell, was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pushed to GitHub. It wasn’t just the initial commit dance, which is what most people do. It’s probably what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would have done if I was Apple. But you can actually see the evolution of Swift over

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time, which is crazy to me. I don’t even know where to go from here, but I feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, John, after your Copeland 2010 bit, let’s start with you.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so the first thing I think is worth explaining is what the hell does it mean to open source Swift? How do you open source a programming language

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t a programming language just like you read a book and it tells you how the language works? Like what are they open sourcing? And of course,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not, you know, it doesn’t make much sense to open source language. But what they’re open sourcing is a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ John the things they use to implement the language. So LVM and clang and those compilers are already

⏹️ ▶️ John open source. But the Swift compiler and the Swift standard library and associated things

⏹️ ▶️ John written in Swift, that’s what’s being open source. So there’s a website,, that you can go to, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is sort of the gateway for all this stuff. Today, I was kind of sad to see that their site was hosed,

⏹️ ▶️ John that was like really, really slow. It wasn’t down. You didn’t get errors, but you just try to load anything on

⏹️ ▶️ John and it would take forever to get back to you. So that’s kind of embarrassing. I think the snarky comment I made was

⏹️ ▶️ John like, maybe if this Swift open source project gets some kind of wealthy corporate backer, they can afford better hosting.

⏹️ ▶️ John Seriously, this is like the richest technology company in the world.

⏹️ ▶️ John was slow today. It makes me sad. Anyway, I will yell more about Apple and their network stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John in a future show, I’m sure. Really?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John we keep pushing it down the notes with this other news, but it is there and it’s getting worse and it’s simmering. So I will complain

⏹️ ▶️ John about it at some point. But, if you go look at the source code, will

⏹️ ▶️ John lead you to GitHub, which is the first exciting thing that you would see about this is like GitHub. Really? Apple’s not hosting

⏹️ ▶️ John it on their, you know, open website where they host all the Darwin source. And that’s exactly what

⏹️ ▶️ John Casey was talking about in the old days, you know, Apple has open source components and like,

⏹️ ▶️ John or even WebKit, but going back farther, Darwin, the core OS that’s underneath OS 10, and

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS has been open source from the beginning. And what would usually happen

⏹️ ▶️ John is Apple would come to some, you know, conference, WDC, or in the old days,

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac world, and announce a new version of the OS. And then

⏹️ ▶️ John developers would develop for it. And then they would ship that version of the OS to customers and then you would wait

⏹️ ▶️ John days, weeks or months and then the open source version of the underlying projects like oh here’s the Darwin

⏹️ ▶️ John release for Mac OS 10 10.4 that would only be released as one big blob

⏹️ ▶️ John well after the OS was already out sometimes it would be the gap wouldn’t be that small

⏹️ ▶️ John but the bottom line is you would get what Casey was saying it’s like a big dump like okay you can go to this open source

⏹️ ▶️ John site and see the source code and it just sits there until the next time Apple comes along goes plop, here’s 10.4

⏹️ ▶️ John plop, here’s 10.5. And they would do the point releases too. But it’s not like they’re showing you here’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the entire commit history of all the components of Darwin over their entire development,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just get these these dumps. And what it wasn’t as a say developed in the open, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So certainly, as they’re working, you know, 10.5 is plopped down the site, someone somewhere in Apple’s working

⏹️ ▶️ John on 10.6, you don’t get to see that work to the open source components, you’re not going to see any part of 10.6 until 10.6 is

⏹️ ▶️ John out. And then they show here, by the way, here’s the open source parts of 10.6 plop, right? WebKit

⏹️ ▶️ John was a little bit different in that you could see what was going on because you know, it wasn’t strictly an Apple project. And it was developed

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of out in the open, but they would do the same thing where they would be like, internally, Apple is working on its next

⏹️ ▶️ John revision of Safari with a new version of WebKit. But they’re not doing that work out in the open, at some point,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re going to plop down a big commit to the latest version of WebKit. And that’s been getting

⏹️ ▶️ John better with WebKit. But Swift is even more towards the actual model that people do with open source projects

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of here’s the whole history of the entire project from the beginning. All the committers have accounts on

⏹️ ▶️ John GitHub. So you can see all you know, the names attached to them and like literally the whole you can go back to 2010 and see the first commit

⏹️ ▶️ John and just you know, go through the history of the entire Swift programming language and see who did what and look at

⏹️ ▶️ John the commit history and who did who would contribute the most code when the fun thing is you can go to a chart and

⏹️ ▶️ John GitHub and see like little graphs and stuff. And what you can basically see is either the hire date or the disclosure date of

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone working on Swift because in the beginning, it’s just, you know, Latner is doing everything because he’s the only

⏹️ ▶️ John one who knows anything about it, right. And then at a certain point, a second person comes on, then a third person, then a fourth person. And

⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s not their hire date, you know, the time before is probably when they didn’t know the project existed, and then they were disclosed

⏹️ ▶️ John on it. And it’s like, oh, now they see, you know, so it’s like revealing the history of the thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re continuing to work on it in the open, so much so that there’s a roadmap on the site to say, Hey, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to do swift 2.2. And we’re going to do swift 3.0. And here’s what’s planned for it. And here are the proposals. And here are the check ins

⏹️ ▶️ John that are leading up to it. So this is totally normal from the perspective of any regular open source

⏹️ ▶️ John project, like I don’t know, Apache or Python or whatever. But it is extremely novel in terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of core technologies in Apple to be actually real live developed with a public bug

⏹️ ▶️ John tracker, where you’re seeing future development happening in real time. They’re doing things that are not

⏹️ ▶️ John yet released in any Apple product, and seeing them do them and you can file bugs against them and stuff and you can see all the source code.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is for long suffering Apple technology enthusiasts a breath

⏹️ ▶️ John of fresh air.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s it’s really surprising. And in the last couple of weeks, Apple as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a whole has been getting a lot of flack about, you know, the Mac App Store and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey potentially their plans for iPhone hardware. I don’t know if you guys heard anything about this headphone thing or not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But this is really impressive and this is very un-Apple-like.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was funny because earlier today I was listening to a material, which is a podcast on Relay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about Google stuff, and they had their – Google’s VP of Design whose name I will butcher if I try to pronounce.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mattias Duarte? Yes. Thank you. They had him

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on their podcast. Granted, Schiller did go on the talk show, but you don’t typically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hear these sorts of things happening with Apple, and this is a very open way of doing open source, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is just really impressive. I don’t know, Marco, you’ve been quiet so far. What do you think?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really happy to see this. I mean, you know, as much as I do complain about things that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t do well and does that are hostile to either customers or developers,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in reality, this is a really big move. This is a good move. And this is way more open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about this stuff than I expected, for sure. Way more open than they really probably needed to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be. And there’s a number of things about this that I assume we’re going to get to where like when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they first announced that at was WDC when they first announced that Swift would be open sourced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and I thought and we talked about it you know back then and I said basically that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know I was reserving any kind of enthusiasm about this because I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was gonna be more like how drama saying more like they’ve done open source in the past where it’s just kind of like these these dumps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and those aren’t that useful for the most part and I also was concerned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about I would absolutely love to only master one new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco language now to be to cover both my app development and my web development

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I don’t like web development that much I’m not that into it I do web development as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a just a means to an end to make the the apps that I want to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I’ve been doing it in PHP for all these years and I just now started dipping my toe a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit in Go, but I’m not writing whole apps in Go, I’m just making a few components in Go that the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big PHP app uses. I like Go a decent amount, but I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t think I like it enough to build a whole new web app in it, or to port the whole app I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to it. I don’t plan to do that. Swift is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not my perfect ideal language, but it’s pretty good. It looks pretty good. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know I’m going to have to learn it if I want to keep being an Apple platform developer for 10 years from now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going to have to learn Swift and I’m going to do it at some point. And so it would be nice if I could just learn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Swift and have that also work on the web for my future web needs. And then I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can finally stop using PHP and use Swift everywhere and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really get a nice deep mastering of this one language and be able to share code between them, be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco able to share my own utility libraries, etc. You know, share application level code, and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of the data layer stuff. I would love that. That didn’t look like it was going to happen before because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was assuming that the open sourcing of Swift would be, you know, similar to the old way of just dumping things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they didn’t say anything about open sourcing foundation or any of the API’s. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we all, myself included, just assumed that the only part that would be open source would be the core of the language

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the handful of built in types it has, there would be effectively no libraries. And that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn’t be very useful. Multiple people would have stepped in to try to make their own standard libraries

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and try to get themselves established as the standard library. And it would have been a mess, just like JavaScript frameworks, it would have been a total

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mess. But what has actually happened, they’re outlining a plan to actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco convert foundation to Swift and open source it and included in this in this package. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I’m sure you know, not Not every API is going to be available in this open source way. But what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this does is this gives people a way to actually build, say, a web app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that runs on a web app back end that runs in Swift on a Linux server

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and also runs on iOS, where they could actually share a meaningful amount of underlying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco code and libraries. And that is really cool. That I was not expecting at all. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really happy to see that because now that makes this interesting. makes this beyond

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like an academic curiosity of, oh, maybe I could toy around and get, you know, Darwin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco running on my Linux server. No, this is like actually potentially useful in the real world. And no offense

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Darwin.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, like we knew that they were gonna do Linux, though, because they announced that at WRC, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We knew they would do Linux, but we didn’t know that there would be any libraries beyond the built in Swift types. Right. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John so when they said they were gonna do Linux, like that was the other, you know, in between the slides when they said they were going to open

⏹️ ▶️ John source in the slide when they put the word Linux on the screen. What I was thinking was a reasonable fear was like

⏹️ ▶️ John no matter what you do with open sourcing, that’s well and good, but they’re going to open source basically, Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John so you can run it on on Macs, right on OS 10, right? Because there are always always ties the whole thing. I was like, Oh, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John great. If you have a Mac, you can do it. But it’s going to be useless on the server because nobody uses Mac servers. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a shame that even though Swiss will be open source, it’s going to be up to the community to figure out how the hell to get it to work

⏹️ ▶️ John on Linux. And then two slides later, like, oh, Linux, Apple’s doing that part. Why would Apple do that

⏹️ ▶️ John part? Well, Apple has servers too, right? And they’re probably not running OS 10 at this point. God,

⏹️ ▶️ John I hope they’re not. Right? They have server side stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ John why would Apple waste its time doing a Linux port? And believe me, they would not do it out of the goodness of their heart to say, see, it’s really

⏹️ ▶️ John portable. Look, we did a Linux port, right? They’re doing it, they’re doing it for themselves. And they

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually basically have the same needs as Marco, which is like, well, it’s great that we can run Swift on the server. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if we want to share any significant amount of code between our client and our server, it would be great to at least have foundation.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, you know what I mean? That would be nice. I suppose they could just bring the Objective-C runtime to

⏹️ ▶️ John Linux as well. I mean, if it’s not already there. But what they chose to do instead, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John I think is the most exciting thing, like I knew they’d have something like this to be able to run on Linux, because why the hell else would Apple be? Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John wants to use it for the same thing Marco wants to use it for, only on a much larger scale, right? But what they

⏹️ ▶️ John did instead was tick the hard rovers is like, we’re not gonna use the Objective C runtime on Linux and

⏹️ ▶️ John let you use Swift on Linux with foundation on Linux with, you know, core foundation and C

⏹️ ▶️ John and foundation and Objective C like they could have done that and it would have worked fine. Instead, they are,

⏹️ ▶️ John they have not done this yet, but they are undertaking the effort to port foundation to Swift and they’re doing it, you know, you can

⏹️ ▶️ John look at the source repository and see like all the empty implementations were like not yet implemented, but the you know, the function is

⏹️ ▶️ John there. This is one of the projects they’re doing. And I don’t know what kind of schedule it’s on. I think maybe they

⏹️ ▶️ John were saying by like 3.0, they would have the whole thing ported or whatever. So it’s still gonna be core

⏹️ ▶️ John foundation, straight C underneath the covers. That was already portable for the most part, or core foundation light

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever had been open source. And then on top of that, they’re gonna go from that point,

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift all the way up. So anything that used to be in foundation and was objective C, they’re re-implementing

⏹️ ▶️ John in Swift. I’m still a little bit confused about how they’re gonna do Swift string versus

⏹️ ▶️ John NS string. And by the way, like this is the other exciting thing about this. They’re finally dropping the NS prefix

⏹️ ▶️ John from all the foundation stuff. They’re taking this opportunity this re implementation and swift to drop all the NS is which for people

⏹️ ▶️ John who don’t know, it always cracks me up. I was I was googling this earlier to see when the NS was added, because I believe it

⏹️ ▶️ John was added at some point in history of next but NS stands for next step. And so all these new Mac developers

⏹️ ▶️ John have no idea what the hell next is, probably like programming this for months and going through tutorials and whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John going, why the hell are all the API’s being with NS doesn’t make any sense. I can’t figure out what that means.

⏹️ ▶️ John Next step. But it’s silly for it to be there. And now it’s the perfect opportunity to remove it. So then

⏹️ ▶️ John how the hell do you distinguish between swift dot string, and formerly NS string, which I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John would just become string. I mean, you can understand because for namespacing, like they would be they’ll be distinguishable.

⏹️ ▶️ John But and I know they’re like, you know, bridge to each other like zero cross bridge, you know, array

⏹️ ▶️ John and NS array and behind the scenes and all that stuff. But it’s potentially confusing. So like, am I using pure Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John with Swift strings or I’m using Swift with foundation in Swift with Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John used to be NS strings but are actually strings anyway I’m sure they’ll work it out but the bottom line is they’re clearly

⏹️ ▶️ John not taking the easy road here they’re you’re not gonna say they’re leaving the Objective-C runtime behind because

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously they’re not because they got bazillion lines of Objective-C code and that will be maintained and enhanced for the

⏹️ ▶️ John future obviously but the foundation literally the foundation of their their

⏹️ ▶️ John programming language stack is going to be written in Swift. It’s C, core foundation,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then it’s going to be Swift foundation, and then the Swift standard library and all the Swift stuff on top of it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John this is very exciting and it’s exciting not only that they’re saying they’re doing this, this isn’t done yet. This

⏹️ ▶️ John is the type of thing like in the old Apple would not even announce that they’re doing this until the next WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re telling you that they’re doing it even though it’s not done. You can see how far they’ve gotten and like I said they tell you what

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to be in Swift 2.2, they tell you what is going to be in Swift 3.0, they have a system whereby you can propose things

⏹️ ▶️ John to be in Swift 3.1 or 4.0 and your proposal could get accepted and incorporated and you could submit patches

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything. It’s actual open source development.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s really cool. And this makes me interested in learning the language, you know, at some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point soon. I’m still not going to jump on it like today or next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John week.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, don’t spend too much time learning the plus plus and minus minus operator.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. But and one thing that I probably will wait for is that they mentioned that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They are not, you know, so they talk about like the goals for the big 3.0 release that’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in late 2016, which is, you know, so a year from now, but they say that they’re not going to address

⏹️ ▶️ Marco concurrency primitives in, or you know, concurrency built-ins in language until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after 3.0. I think I do want to wait to really master the language until the concurrency

⏹️ ▶️ Marco story is worked out, because that’s pretty important. You’ll always have an excuse to wait.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, no, no,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m saying to really master it. I didn’t say to start learning it or to start using it, But I do want to see how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that shakes out because that’s kind of important in the modern environment. I mean, that’s, you know. Well, that’s why Go

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to be better for your server side things. Cause Go is already like, you’re using those features in Go and they’re really handy.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I mean, I guess you like what they’re saying is for now this is a library thing, use LibDispatch, right? Which is not

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible. You’re already kind of familiar with it from using it in your existing apps. Is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco LibDispatch available? I mean, it’s cause it’s open source itself, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, like, basically they’re, I forget what their, the exact text of the thing was. they’re saying for now

⏹️ ▶️ John before we address this in the language libraries are the answer so use pthreads use libdispatch use whatever the hell you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to use it’s a library problem not a language problem but go go decided that it’s important enough to be part of the

⏹️ ▶️ John language and it makes stuff easier so it’s gonna be that’s when you mentioned like oh you know right like writing

⏹️ ▶️ John a server-side web framework equivalent to your PHP one or even equivalent to the simple servers you’re doing and go

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a lot of library work that if Apple has done it we’re not seeing it yet and so it’s up to the community to actually

⏹️ ▶️ John do that part of it, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So under the radar number two, you and Underscore talked about, basically, we’ll get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there when we get there. And now it sounds like you’re kind of rethinking that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What makes it being open source make it so much more appealing to you? Because you’re not about to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be contributing pull requests or anything like that. So why does it being open source

⏹️ ▶️ Casey suddenly change your opinion?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, because now mastering Swift now has more value to me because now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a chance that I can use it on the server side as well. And there’s now a roadmap in sight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where that is looking likely and plausible and potentially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very good. So that’s the big reason. Now it isn’t just, oh, just learn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how to do everything I’ve already been doing on the same platform with no possible other impact

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides just, you know, the language’s built-in benefits, which I don’t care that strongly about yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now it’s also, you know, I need to learn a better website language. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really do. I am constantly hitting PHP’s limits and I’m constantly running

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into problems with it whenever I do new development. And it’s not that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I, you know, it’s not that, you know, PHP is constantly crashing or anything, but it seems like it’s on shaky ground that, you know, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expressed before that I just don’t, I don’t need to convince people why I don’t like PHP. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t really believe that his leadership is taking it in good directions. Not that it ever has, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s finally starting to affect me. So I want to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get off PHP sooner rather than later, but I also don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think Go is the answer necessarily. It’s good enough for now, but I’m still looking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a better overall web language to switch to and I don’t think Go’s going to end up being it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this to potentially step into that role, then this gives me a really big reason to learn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Swift not to mention the code sharing benefits. You know, if I can have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I can have like the model layers shared between like say overcast and its web component,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff like that. There’s a lot of benefits to having that kind of code sharing potential. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I even simple things like right now, the main reason why the overcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco web interface does not have playlists is because I don’t want to have to port the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco code that the playlist used to order themselves, which is a very complicated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco piece of Objective-C code, I don’t want to port that to PHP because it’s going to be a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco massive amount of work to get it right and it’s going to be buggy and it’s just not worth it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s opportunities like that where like, oh, if I could just do the same thing on both sides that would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a much more easily solved problem. So I’m looking forward to a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco future where I can just master one—because that’s my style. My style is not to learn 60 different languages

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to have a shallow proficiency in each of them. My style is to really master one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing and use it forever, use it until everyone’s making fun of me for using it, and then finally switch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s what got me here, and I think I would love for Swift to be the next language

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do that with. And this now shows me that that has a good chance of being possible.

⏹️ ▶️ John Plus you can make your own web framework in Swift because there won’t be one. Well there probably will be one pretty soon but but yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re already a couple but yeah I know but like now based on the new foundation and based on all the new stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ John that wasn’t part of Apple’s open source stuff is like and by the way here’s what we’re using for our server side Swift because Apple is surely

⏹️ ▶️ John using server side Swift and how they’re incorporating it I’m not sure but there is no equivalent to you know

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever your favorite web framework or even even equivalent I don’t think there’s even an equivalent to the simple server

⏹️ ▶️ John port listening stuff that’s in the go standard libraries is there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no absolutely not no I mean is is the CIA is the networking stuff you’ve imported yet

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah but just a network but you want some of the either need something like co routines or an event driven loop or you need something to handle

⏹️ ▶️ John you know processing more than one request at once you know what I mean anyway yeah so there

⏹️ ▶️ John is there is an opportunity for people who want to do something potentially dramatic

⏹️ ▶️ John and something that has a big footprint and a big effect. The first person to make a really

⏹️ ▶️ John good web framework in server-side Swift will have the attention of everybody who’s in the same

⏹️ ▶️ John situation as Marco, which is I’ve got an iOS app and I would love to be able to share the

⏹️ ▶️ John faceless components between the server and the client. I don’t want to have to think about all the crap about running a

⏹️ ▶️ John server, listening at a port dispatching based on URLs and stuff. I want a fairly simple but reliable

⏹️ ▶️ John fast framework to do that for me. If someone makes one, I will use it because you just want to plug in your model

⏹️ ▶️ John code. You don’t want to deal with like request routing and parsing HTTP headers and crap like that. You know?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, ideally, that’s that should all be handled by any modern framework like I there’s no there’s no reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for web programmers to be doing that stuff manually anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep. I mean, and like PHP, the standard library handles it and go has standard library functions and things like that. But Swift,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the gap in Swift functionality. A couple more points that will probably continue this topic in future

⏹️ ▶️ John shows, but we don’t want to drag this one out too long. But in the topic of Apple being more

⏹️ ▶️ John open, Craig Federighi, who I figure what he’s like the head of all software at Apple, I don’t know what his title is.

⏹️ ▶️ John He is making the rounds to the websites as I saw him interviewed at Ars Technica. I think he talked to

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, maybe the next web or a bunch of other websites. I read reviews where Craig Federighi talked to

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of websites about the Swift open source project. When has that happened? That is definitely a new Apple thing like that they

⏹️ ▶️ John send out one of their guys to make the rounds of the relatively speaking

⏹️ ▶️ John you know dinky little websites like you know you’d see Steve Jobs go on

⏹️ ▶️ John CNN or something and talk to the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times but that’s it but now

⏹️ ▶️ John Craig Federighi is talking to the I guess the second tier websites

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah the tech press yeah because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CNN doesn’t want to hear about open source Swift basically but but no this is this

⏹️ ▶️ John is great

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John i i think this is a great i mean you know he’s going and he’s saying the same things to every different website or whatever but but

⏹️ ▶️ John it is i don’t know it just makes me feel better than like yeah see what you can do apple just like regular pr

⏹️ ▶️ John in some ways apple was was i always looked on them as interesting and special because they didn’t do regular pr like every

⏹️ ▶️ John other company anything they do that they think is even remotely important they’re like a proud little child

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco see

⏹️ ▶️ John what i made see look see look at this put it on the refrigerator right and apple would just be like we say nothing we

⏹️ ▶️ John talk to you this number of times times a year, everything else we do, maybe there’s a press release on our site, but we’re not going to talk to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just reblog our press release, like or don’t, we don’t care, like whatever. But now they’re actually saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John Hey, we’ve got Craig Federighi here. Do you want to talk to him? He wants to talk to you about open source Swift. Hey, like to the tech websites.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so that’s just weird. And God, I think that the websites don’t even know how to handle

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Like, a lot of these websites are not accustomed to interviewing

⏹️ ▶️ John an executive and then writing an article based on that interview with Apple executives because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like so do I just transcribe exactly what they said even though their sentence doesn’t quite make sense or do I clean

⏹️ ▶️ John it up a little bit but then will they be afraid of misquoting them and like so some of them is just it seems like awkward it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like oh I didn’t I didn’t think you’d actually show up is this really you I guess like let’s talk

⏹️ ▶️ John about Swift for five minutes and then I’ll write something about this is totally weird so it definitely

⏹️ ▶️ John it definitely feels weird I mean it would be weirder if it was you know Chris Latner talking to everybody but

⏹️ ▶️ John Craig Federici makes sense he’s the head of the whole software department and he’s gonna tell you why Apple is open-sourcing Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John and why it’s a good idea so I’ll put a link to the ours article but you can see a bunch of other things around and this is definitely

⏹️ ▶️ John a glasnost I guess is the appropriate Cold War metaphor for this

⏹️ ▶️ John so I thought that was exciting and I hope to see more of that like you know do it every time

⏹️ ▶️ John every single thing you do but open-sourcing Swift is significant enough to send out an emissary essentially.

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⏹️ ▶️ John We only have one more thing to add about Swift for this show. We’re going to talk more about open source Swift for the next show.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure because we just put a big dividing line in the notes about it. But the one thing we forgot to mention is what licenses this what open

⏹️ ▶️ John source licenses it and it is the Apache 2.0 license with a special

⏹️ ▶️ John exception to not require you to open source stuff that you build into like a single library or something

⏹️ ▶️ John that happens to start to pull in some of the Swift like runtime, then it’s saying that you don’t have to open source that when it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John okay that if you you know, bind with the Swift standard library or whatever, it doesn’t mean that you have to suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ John open source your whole application. So it’s a very permissive license. It’s not GPL, because Apple’s commercial company

⏹️ ▶️ John and they would never do GPL because it is intentionally viral and Apple doesn’t like the virality

⏹️ ▶️ John of that particular of the constraints and forced by the GPL. So I think

⏹️ ▶️ John for the most part, no one is surprised by the license. And for the most part, the expected people are happy about it and expected

⏹️ ▶️ John people aren’t happy about it. There is a fun. This is actually for the next week thing we can

⏹️ ▶️ John mention it briefly. This is a thing with a lot of open source projects where where

⏹️ ▶️ John you put the source code isn’t necessarily the same place where you want people to file bugs. So GitHub, like many places

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can put source code for also has what they call an issue tracker, which is basically a bug tracker.

⏹️ ▶️ John But Apple, of course, has its own bug tracker called radar. And Swift does not use the issue

⏹️ ▶️ John tracker on GitHub, it has its own website. It’s like bugs that

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that’s where they want you to file the bugs unless they want you to file a radar. It’s a little bit confusing. I guess you’d start

⏹️ ▶️ John and eventually you’d be led to the right place. But the bottom line is on GitHub, you can’t I think, add

⏹️ ▶️ John issues, but you can issue pull requests. So someone immediately made a pull request to change the license to like

⏹️ ▶️ John GPL or something. And then a million people trolled the thread with animated gifs and stuff. So

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll put that link in the show note as well. So as well, so you can enjoy looking at that the first trolling

⏹️ ▶️ John pull request on GitHub for Swift. And of course, it has to do with the license, which, as far as I’m concerned,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t care about. I think they picked the right license for this, for their purpose, and it’s fine. But other people do care

⏹️ ▶️ John about it. And so there you have it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Any other thoughts before next week? We’re just going to we’re just going to hold hold for them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we’re going to hold more.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John more to talk about. And we’ll probably go more in depth in the same topics for next week. And hopefully by next week, we’ll know more

⏹️ ▶️ John about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, because this week, as we record this we only have something like four hours of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco knowledge of this so far yeah so yeah we’ll see what happens all right overall good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco week we still have our headphone jack and Swift had a lot of good stuff so I’m happy thanks a lot to our three

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sponsors this week Harry’s Warby Parker and cards against humanity and we will see you next week

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or hear you next week or speak to you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John what you ruin my phrase

⏹️ ▶️ John just keep saying it the same way you always been saying it it works fine you will hear us next week

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no don’t say that that’s terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John What? Just say, and we will see you next week. You had a thing. You had, it was, it’s a thing. People

⏹️ ▶️ John need a repetition of familiar phrases and beats

⏹️ ▶️ John in the story structure that is our podcast to feel at home. Don’t mess with it. Good

⏹️ ▶️ John grief.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we’ll see you next week.

Ending theme

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, the anti-Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse It’s accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they didn’t mean to to accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ John Tech Podcasts, so long.

Post-show: John’s iCloud story

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t ask much of iCloud. I use Dropbox. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t really use iCloud Drive. I know a lot of people do, but I was like, you know what? iCloud Drive is probably okay, but

⏹️ ▶️ John Dropbox works for me. I should just keep using it. But in other aspects, I want to trust

⏹️ ▶️ John iCloud. Like when the new Notes came out and it changed the back end from iMap to iCloud Syncing, I was glad

⏹️ ▶️ John and I started using it. And for the most part, it’s been working. And so my daughter has been

⏹️ ▶️ John writing. She writes stories a lot and she started wanting to write one by typing instead of by writing

⏹️ ▶️ John on a notepad. She does both, but she also wanted to have one that she was typing. And I wanted to

⏹️ ▶️ John set her up, say, okay, here you go. You can type something and I figured this is a perfect opportunity to use pages.

⏹️ ▶️ John She’s got the latest version of pages. She’s also got it on her iPad with the latest version of us, the

⏹️ ▶️ John latest version of pages. She just wants to type a story, just words on a page.

⏹️ ▶️ John Um, not very demanding and it would be nice if she could do it in both places,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? You know, pages is integrated with iCloud and you make a document and she could type it on the computer

⏹️ ▶️ John and then if she’s in her room with the iPad she could continue typing it on the iPad. Seemed like the ideal opportunity

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m not gonna do page layout. I’m not doing anything fancy here. Could have maybe used text

⏹️ ▶️ John edit but I said why don’t I use pages? Isn’t that of integration and vaguely I was thinking of like that iWork

⏹️ ▶️ John website. I forget if it’s even gone or whatever. But anyway, so I set her up on the Mac to use pages and she’s typing along

⏹️ ▶️ John and typing along and then I realized she hadn’t ever saved and I showed her about saving which is sad the first

⏹️ ▶️ John time you have to show your kids about saving kids who were brought up in the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco ios era like

⏹️ ▶️ John saving what are you even talking about like it’s such an alien concept doesn’t make any sense and like this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing you have to do why do you have to just anyway go through the whole thing um and i

⏹️ ▶️ John said and you know she doesn’t i didn’t go into the open save dialog box i’m just like look i’ll bring it to the right place

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m suffice it to say this is thing you have to do by hitting command s or selecting this command every once in a while but to initially

⏹️ ▶️ John start i will give the thing a name and i will put it in iCloud drive right that’s one of you know I

⏹️ ▶️ John picked iCloud drive an option she saves and she’s typing along that works fine for like a day or two

⏹️ ▶️ John and then at some point I said you know like I think she need to get kicked off the computer kicked out of the room or something

⏹️ ▶️ John like well you can continue writing this on your iPad and she’s not surprised about or impressed by

⏹️ ▶️ John the way she’s like all right fine and then I loaded pages up on her iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John and I tried to open the document that she had just been editing on the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John and it wouldn’t open and so I’m like what is this complaint like she’s like the

⏹️ ▶️ John document is being modified or something like is it complaining because I still have it open on the Mac that’s messed up but

⏹️ ▶️ John fine whatever I’ll close it on the Mac and open it on the iPad and eventually it opened on the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John and she started typing stuff and of course there’s no you know like saving action going on there and then

⏹️ ▶️ John she was done with that and quit it and it was gone and then I mentioned she came back to the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John and said, I want to continue my writing now. And we went to open pages and open the document and it gave some

⏹️ ▶️ John dialogue boxes like, this document can’t be opened right now. I think it said also because it’s being modified, who knows

⏹️ ▶️ John what the hell the message, bottom line was you couldn’t open it. Double clicking it didn’t work, opening it from the application didn’t work.

⏹️ ▶️ John Then I tried to open on the iPad, also wouldn’t open on the iPad. And I’m like, I’m not asking the world of you.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is Apple hardware, Apple software, latest version, latest version of application, latest

⏹️ ▶️ John version of the OS. I just want to edit the same document in two different places. And now

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t open it anywhere. And my daughter is upset. Justifiably so, because previously everything

⏹️ ▶️ John was fine. I was writing on my Mac. And because dad wanted to say, even though we’re kicking you out of the room, you can write on

⏹️ ▶️ John your iPad. Now I can’t open it anywhere and maybe it’s gone. And so I have to fix this problem

⏹️ ▶️ John by figuring out what the hell the deal is. Like I tried everything you can imagine. Eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John I tried copying the document out of the iCloud thing and like opening it and pulling out

⏹️ ▶️ John the text and copying and pasting it to a new text document. And I said, all right, well, so much for iCloud drive.

⏹️ ▶️ John Screw this. I’m putting it in Dropbox. So iCloud drive was cut out of the equation. I put

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing in Dropbox. Now I’m terrified to even try to open it on the iPad because that may end up posing

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing again. Um, I thought I was in the clear. I’m like, I saved it in Dropbox. She doesn’t know where

⏹️ ▶️ John it saves. So now it’s saving drama. I said, I told her, can’t use it on the iPad anymore because that doesn’t work. That crap

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t work. And I had to move it out of iCloud drive for, This is just a total failure of

⏹️ ▶️ John the most simple thing you can possibly do a single person editing a single document in iCloud Drive on you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John everything perfect and just just abject total failure, like not even didn’t work or didn’t sync or whatever, just

⏹️ ▶️ John you could it got we got to the point where you couldn’t open the document at all. Then she decided to write a new story. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John I showed her how to make a new document. And she was typing for a while and I came in and once again, she had not saved for you know, 20

⏹️ ▶️ John minutes and I said, Oh, you have to save that right. And I went to save. And you know, I’m saving

⏹️ ▶️ John in Dropbox now instead of saving on iCloud Drive. So hit save, it asks me for a file name because it had never been

⏹️ ▶️ John given a name before, I type in a name for it, hit the save button, and it says, uh, untitled could not be

⏹️ ▶️ John read. Boop, pops me back. Didn’t save. I try to save again. I try save as, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, save it in a different location, not in Dropbox, on a regular disk says untitled could not be read. Boop, sends me back to the

⏹️ ▶️ John document. I’m like, are you serious now? I’ve made a new document. I can’t even save it to the local file

⏹️ ▶️ John system? This is just the brokenest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. Like seriously,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, VI, Emacs, I just want to make a damn text document and save it to the local disk.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what was wrong. At this point, I don’t even care. Like I feel like just burning pages to the

⏹️ ▶️ John ground and just never looking at it again. I don’t know what the problem is. Like is it because

⏹️ ▶️ John the new document was automatically made in iCloud and something that holds them and by the way, the ghost of the old document

⏹️ ▶️ John that was in iCloud is still there. It’s like this half package thing that I can’t delete because error negative 37 in the finder

⏹️ ▶️ John or some crap like that. So maybe I’ve just entirely hosed her iCloud drive and because when you make a new document

⏹️ ▶️ John it autosaves it to iCloud, the very fact of me trying to save it to local disk has to read the document

⏹️ ▶️ John from iCloud but iCloud won’t let you, iCloud drive won’t let you read it because it thinks it’s in use. Utterly

⏹️ ▶️ John horrifying. Complete failure of the most simple thing you could possibly do with pages which

⏹️ ▶️ John is make a text document. And I just, it just boggled my mind and I just thought like what would

⏹️ ▶️ John regular people do like they would never try pages again. I probably will never try pages again. Unfortunately, now she

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of knows how to use pages and knows how to like change the font and stuff. So I’m afraid to switch her out of that into like text edit. But I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John like, maybe I should send her to Microsoft Word. At least I know we’ll friggin be able to save documents. And

⏹️ ▶️ John Google Docs for crying out loud. I know Google Docs will work. We use it all the time. All of us edit this document. And at no

⏹️ ▶️ John time are we all not able to open this document. At no time are we not able to save it like

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, what what is going on? I don’t. I don’t even want want to think and and still as I sit here right

⏹️ ▶️ John now in her iCloud drive is the ghost of some ancient pages file packaging that I literally

⏹️ ▶️ John cannot delete from the Finder I don’t I don’t know it is one of the most depressing

⏹️ ▶️ John experiences I’ve had with Apple server-side software in years it’s saying

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot yeah seriously though like I can’t can you think of something obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John data loss would be worth the only thing I can think of the be worse is like data loss and it would have led to data loss if someone wasn’t there

⏹️ ▶️ John who didn’t realize that you can, you know, select all copy and paste into a new thing and you know, find your way out of it. But

⏹️ ▶️ John for a brief, brief period of time, I could not open up her original pages document anywhere. Couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John open it on any Mac, couldn’t open on any iOS device. Every time he tried to open it, it would give you an error. And

⏹️ ▶️ John it was the only copy of the file that we had.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’ve learned a lesson that I’m slowly learning over the last couple of months, which is that I think for maximum

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happiness, it is best to keep a little bit more distance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from Apple’s stuff than what we’ve been keeping. For me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m rethinking my use of photos, I’m rethinking my use of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any kind of iCloud backend stuff, rethinking whether I even want to keep wearing the Apple Watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s a lot of things where like Apple right now, they’re so big, they’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much stuff, they’re spread so thin. So much of Apple’s stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is in this 1.0 or beta state recently with no end

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in sight. And it seems like the direction the company is going is towards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being even more spread thin and having even more 1.0 half-finished products. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco important for people like us who care about our computing life

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happiness, our stability, our data integrity. I think it’s important for us to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco start realizing like, you know, going all in on Apple is not best for our happiness anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s best to kind of keep some distance and, you know, maybe have a Mac and an iPhone, but you know, not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every iPad plus the Apple TV plus every phone every year plus the Apple Watch plus being using all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new services, Apple Music and Photo Library Cloud and all sorts of like, you know, maybe not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having everything.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, yeah, but for me, mostly what I’m, I’ve already known this and I’ve mostly been doing this, it’s stick

⏹️ ▶️ John to the products that are really important to Apple photos is way more important than pages to Apple. And it shows

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like right. And things like iCloud Drive, where there’s already an alternative that I that I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John been using that works for me like Dropbox, right? Don’t switch to iCloud Drive, just because it’s Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, because you already have Dropbox and already does that, like it’s the same reason, you know, I use Gmail, pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John much no matter what Apple does with Apple’s mail application, and iCloud Mail, I will never switch from Gmail unless Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ John starts being unsatisfactory to me, right. So that’s the whole thing is like, just because Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John makes a version of a thing that you already have in like, don’t switch to it because you think the Apple thing is going to be better,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Only switch when you were dissatisfied with the thing that you have. So I’m not dissatisfied with Dropbox. So I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason I did it for my daughter is I’m giving her a difference. Like, I’m, I’m thinking a different standard for

⏹️ ▶️ John her. I’m like, she has nothing now. So maybe if she just starts off as an iCloud person,

⏹️ ▶️ John right from day one and puts all her stuff in iCloud Drive, maybe it’ll work out fine for I already have, you know, investment in Dropbox,

⏹️ ▶️ John my stuff in Dropbox, my habits formed in Dropbox, but Dropbox is a third party company, it could get acquired by somebody, it

⏹️ ▶️ John could go out of business. For my kids I feel like if you just start straight up Apple and you just have,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, one account and everything’s on your Apple ID or whatever, won’t that be simpler for you? It’s less for me to

⏹️ ▶️ John explain, like, it’s bad enough that my mother still insists on having two email addresses, the pain it caused me is

⏹️ ▶️ John just tremendous, tremendous amount of pain. One is for spam, in case you were

⏹️ ▶️ John wondering. And honestly, I’ve kind of done that

⏹️ ▶️ John with my kids too, because I don’t trust because I’m so distrustful of Apple Mail.

⏹️ ▶️ John I gave them both Gmail accounts as well. So they have and that is, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it could be confusing to them if that was if they revealed the confusion, but I just hid the Apple Mail app on their iOS devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John So they just see the Gmail icon is how they get their mail, you know what I mean? But for this that

⏹️ ▶️ John I made a different choice than it would have for myself, basically, because I would never have done this. I don’t use iCloud. But for them, I decided to

⏹️ ▶️ John do it. And it was a mistake. really need to trust my instincts more on. If it’s really,

⏹️ ▶️ John really important to Apple, it has a much higher chance than if it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco well,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll update it sometimes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s maybe a healthy way to look at this would be, you know, in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the last 10 years or so, we keep going more and more towards integration and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these, you know, an increasingly smaller number of companies that each increasingly offer a larger

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number of services and products that people are expected to go all in on one company for. So you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all in the Apple ecosystem or you’re all in the Google ecosystem or whatever. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what may be a better way to look at this is the danger of a monoculture

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that if you’re all in on anything, that it makes you vulnerable to problems.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And maybe the healthier thing to do is to maintain diversity in the things that you use and the things you rely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on. So, you know, I’m all in on Apple stuff in a lot of ways, but I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use iCloud Drive because that feels like a little too much in a way that Apple’s not very good at usually so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they don’t host my email. I use fast mail for that with mail right in front of it. So I you know, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again like I wouldn’t I wouldn’t trust iCloud mail even though a lot of people do and it works fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m surprised you didn’t tell me your usual speech which like really and this is true. I just have been lax in doing it. The

⏹️ ▶️ John right thing to do for my kids is not to give them Gmail accounts or Apple accounts. The right thing to do is give them accounts in a domain that I

⏹️ ▶️ John own even if behind the scenes that like forwards through Gmail or whatever so I’m kind of doing them a disservice by not doing that but

⏹️ ▶️ John then again they’re not gonna care what the hell I do them they’re gonna become adults and pick their own place to host their email I just

⏹️ ▶️ John hope won’t be hotmail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hotmail will never die I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John can’t I can’t get my sister a

⏹️ ▶️ John hotmail I tried I really tried I she has a gmail account her hot mail

⏹️ ▶️ John all goes to it she can email from hotmail through it just I could I couldn’t do it. She keeps going back.

Siracusa Toaster Song (extended)

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse a talking about toasters More exciting than

⏹️ ▶️ John a rollercoaster

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Will it fit on his countertop? I hope the reviews never stop

⏹️ ▶️ John How many pieces of toast can it fit? What’s the build quality of it? Do

⏹️ ▶️ John the buttons make

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no sound? Do the features justify expense? John knows slot toasters

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are better at just toasting But he’s looking for Something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so much more