138: Only Microsoft

08 Oct 2015

Microsoft Surface Book, iPhone 6S CPU differences, and the challenge of being Twitter’s CEO.

Episode Description:

• Follow-up:
  • Boxee Box and oddly-shaped TV dinguses
  • TiVo Bolt feature upgrades for Roamios
  • Top Gear redux begins (Clarkson's tweet)
• A tale of two A9s
  • Extra battery life? (more at Engadget)
    • Geekbench results: 1 2
    • Test App
  • Released after we recorded, Apple's statement
• The phenomenal ATP artwork by Mindaugas Rudokas
  • Get his app, Disco Timer
  • Full-resolution version
• Microsoft Surface Book
  • Odd iMac colors
    • More from Stephen Hackett
• Jack Dorsey is back at Twitter
• Tweetbot 4
• Post-show:
  • P85D vs. 458

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Chapters

1. Follow-up: TiVo Bolt
2. Topnet Gearflix
3. iPhone 6S battery differences?
4. “Business as usual at ATP”
5. Sponsor: Squarespace
6. Microsoft Surface Book
7. Laptop design rut
8. Sponsor: MailRoute
9. Do we care about Jack Dorsey?
10. Sponsor: Fracture
11. Tweetbot 4
12. Post-show: Neutral

Follow-up: TiVo Bolt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So I went and cleared out everything that was obviously outdated. We had, of course,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like, bullet points on speculation about what TV kit might be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and rumors of the new Apple TV remote.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We should talk about that. We’d be, uh, we’d get those predictions right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey In the realm of follow-up, we have more follow-up about the TiVo that neither Marco nor I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey cares about.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, you care. You need to

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} care. Need

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to care actually there’s one item about the Tevo It’s not in the follow-up that I want to briefly mention so since

⏹️ ▶️ ^John last week I think more people have either followed our links to the Tevo bolts or seen people tweeting about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it Or you know it’s made the rounds in the tech news sites and stuff and people have looked at it And let’s know my comments about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how I can’t believe that they made a thing that you can’t stack something on top of and a lot Of people have responded with other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John TV connected devices that are unstackable in various ways one of the one of the ones that came up a lot was the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John boxy box do you guys remember that i do uh it basically looked like a cube

⏹️ ▶️ ^John tilted on its corner and then like set down into the table so that like it’s sort of a cube

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on an angle but it wasn’t actually a cube they chopped off part of anyway it’s clearly nothing can go on top of it because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if it was a cube just resting normally on the table it’d work fine but it’s tilted and then the corners are chopped off and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s ridiculous the reason i think the tivo bolt is worse than the boxy box and those other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things is that the tivo bolt like i said in the show it’s like thumbing its nose at you. It’s so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John close to being just a flat box. But they said, you know what? Yeah, screw you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We’re bending it. Like it’s not it’s not a you know, because the boxy box, I give it a pass like, oh, they’re making a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John piece of art. It’s like a sculpture. It’s like it’s not even close to it is clearly never going to be something you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stack. Also, it’s not wider. And the boxy box is a plain old normal proportion

⏹️ ▶️ ^John box that you put under a TV in terms of like it’s around the size of a regular TV. It’s around the size of like a a blu-ray player

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or a game console or anything like that it’s exactly flat on all sides and then they just bent it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and that I think was just it’s just the worst um uh

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah and then one other item is not here people have already started uh opening the thing up and figuring out if they can upgrade the little 2.5

⏹️ ▶️ ^John inch drive to whatever the max capacity 2.5 inch drives they have and apparently that’s successful so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if people are buying this even though again this is not the high-end tevo and the tevo folks themselves have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John had a series of q a’s and stuff where they’ve reemphasized not that you know this wasn’t a question like we said in the last show this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is not the pro product they still sell a pro product that is has more features and more storage and more tuners

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and everything uh and they said don’t worry you know eventually we will come out with the pro model whether

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the pro model will also be bent will it even be called the bolt we don’t know they just basically said

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uh this product is not for you people who want the highest entivo uh this is and they were

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pretty candid i wish i could find this q a and a you know did we link it last week maybe we didn’t anyway the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John guy who was talking was from Tivo was basically saying look he’s talking to a bunch of very enthusiastic Tivo fans looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and saying I know you guys don’t want this because it doesn’t have lots of storage and it’s not big and fancy and has

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fewer tuners and it’s like basically a downgrade from the one you have now this is not for you but basically if we just continue

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to make products for you we would go out of business we need to make a low-end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John product that is distinctive and appealing he was also basically defending the crazy shape saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s what we have to do to stay in business We have to find a way to sell something to people who otherwise wouldn’t buy a Tivo.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John There are not enough people like me who want the high end Tivo to keep us in business. I think he said something like they got 150,000

⏹️ ▶️ ^John new customers last year, as in people who hadn’t previously owned Tivo’s like new

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to Tivo customers, and that’s just not enough. So there what they’re trying to do is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John make a cheap product that will stand out that people will notice it. They’re like, Oh, it’s that crazy bent thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s why I mean, I don’t know if that’s noticing in a good way or a bad way, but hey, it’s noticing. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have it be an actual good product, like have interesting features, be faster, be more responsive,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all that good stuff. Have the automatic commercial skipping and everything. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one of their many ploys to stay in business. It’s sad that the high-end customers can’t sustain them as a company.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m not quite sure what their expenses are. It’s not like they’re Netflix or they’re licensing content or something. They’re just making

⏹️ ▶️ ^John basically a little computer that you attach to your TV. Anyway. And making hardware is easy. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not the same as like, what is your burn rate? Like how many employees do you need? And especially if you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John been doing it for many, many years, I guess just 150,000 is just not enough sales and you just need to sell more of them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So I want TiVo to stay in business. So I guess everyone should wait for them to come out with the high-end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John TiVo and then buy the most expensive one and then throw it in the garbage, you know, whatever. I just want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them to stay in business. So anyway, the actual follow-up that was in here is the question from last week.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What kind of TiVo Bolt features could possibly come a software update

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to existing TiVo owners to the Romeo models which is the old high-end one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and someone from TiVo is at TiVo design and twitter said quick mode which is a thing that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like smart speed where you watch 30% faster and channel logos and the guide are two items

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that are coming through a software update not mentioned is the thing that skips commercials which is totally technically possible to bring

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the other ones quick mode was the one i had a question about and apparently that’s that’s coming um they didn’t mention

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the commercial skipping and that could could just be like oh we’re gonna save that for the other models to make you upgrade which whatever I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fine oh you know if they come out with the new high and Tivo I will probably buy it history has shown that I will probably buy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it so I think that’s it for the Bolt.

Topnet Gearflix

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey We should note that Jeremy Clarkson has tweeted today, which in and of itself is unremarkable, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey he has tweeted, with a skeleton crew filming for Amazon Prime’s new motoring program,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey spelled incorrectly, has begun. And it has a shot of, what are these cars? This is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a LaFerrari, a McLaren. P1. Thank you. The P1 and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey whatever the Ferrari du jour of the hour

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} is. No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s a Porsche. It’s the 918. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that’s the Porsche. Oh, that’s the 918? Oh, it looks

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} like a… Come

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on. Come on. You’ve been away from the show. You can’t even identify This is as I tweeted This is the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when are they gonna get to the fireworks factory because in the last in the sad last season of Top Gear

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They were like, oh finally when the law Ferrari comes out, we’re gonna test it We’re gonna test all these these, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know hybrid supercars or whatever. They all hybrid. I forget if the p1 is hybrid Maybe not. Anyway, we’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ ^John test all these top-end supercars against each other Because they tested the 918 on its own They

⏹️ ▶️ ^John tested the p1 on its own and a lot Ferrari came out and I tested it on its own like now We’re gonna have these guys do a shootout

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and like the very last episode where they were all together like oh the manufacturers wouldn’t let Us race them against each other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so sorry guys We’re working on it, but right now They’re all big babies because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re all afraid their cars gonna lose so they don’t want them to race in each other We’re trying to work something out and eventually it’s like oh we’ve worked something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out They’ve all agreed to race under whatever conditions and then Clarkson went and punched somebody and the show was over

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} a pretty good summary. So I was like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when are they going to get to the fireworks factory? They kept teasing. I want to see that showdown between those three cars. That’s exactly what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I want to see. So I am super excited that this Amazon showed the first picture they show is guess what? We got

⏹️ ▶️ ^John those three cars. Presumably we’re gonna race them against each other.

iPhone 6S battery differences?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey The other follow-up we had is this big kerfuffle that’s been going around, particularly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey as we record on Wednesday, with regard to battery life for the two different

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey A9s. Apparently both Samsung and TSMC, what does that stand

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for? Taiwan Semi? Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacture Company, something like that. Apparently both of them

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey are fabbing the A9 and apparently one of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey these things is not like the other, you could say. So, Marco, you were talking about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this earlier today. Would you like to fill us in on some of the details? Well, unfortunately,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we don’t know a lot yet. It might not be a story, but it might be a story. And at

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the time we record this on Wednesday night, it’s way too early to say whether there’s anything here or whether

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this is just a couple of people getting weird test results. The gist of it is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so we know for sure that the A9 chip in the iPhone 6, as you mentioned, is being

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco fabbed by two companies, TSMC and Samsung. And they have two different manufacturing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco processes at those two companies. The Samsung one is actually the smaller feature size. Samsung

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is 14 nanometer, TSMC is 16. So normally you would expect the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco smaller feature size one being Samsung to have better battery life because it uses

⏹️ ▶️ ^John less power. Well, not in the days of leakage current dominating because now it’s not like that used to be true.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But then once the leakage current became a thing, it kind of kept long because what people would do is like, oh, I can’t even make

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a 22 nanometer chip until I solve this leakage current problem. So they would solve it by using like high

⏹️ ▶️ ^John K dielectric or whatever you know things that they’re doing and then it would shrink and you would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get lower power and it’s like yay everything’s following along but really the only reason you got less power is because they figured out the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John leakage thing and so as we get smaller and smaller it’s like oh we got that problem again we got all this leakage how what are we gonna do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so you’re right that in the old thinking in like the you know 45 nanometer 65 nanometer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thinking shrinking is better but now the sizes we’re at now shrinking is not necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ ^John better unless you know the intimate details of the geometry and materials of their actual transistors.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right. So anyway, the gist is there’s a couple of people, and again, the test size here

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is really small, but there’s a couple of people who are getting results that indicate that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the TSMC manufactured one, which is actually the larger feature size, but as John just explained, it doesn’t really matter

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as much anymore. the TSMC manufactured A9s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are yielding substantially better battery life than the Samsung ones. The test so far

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco suggests that it might be as much as like 20-25% more battery life. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do you know, let’s put a qualifier on that because here’s my first question about these things. Are they yielding

⏹️ ▶️ ^John better battery life or are they yielding better Geekbench battery scores? Because I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John entirely convinced that there isn’t something about the Geekbench battery test that behaves

⏹️ ▶️ ^John differently on one thing than the other like you know like if this is our only metric like you said it’s a small number of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people it’s like you know a few dozen people and if they’re all running the geekbench battery test

⏹️ ▶️ ^John i don’t know what else you do to test battery life like you need to have to do something uh you can’t just have anecdotal like i used my phone for a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John day and it seemed like it was slower but if they’re all using the same test and it’s a low number i don’t know yet like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John i i i’m trying to think of like what is what could it be about the geekbench test that would care

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who manufactured the CPU are they different in ways other than the size

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the features and the materials and geometry of the individual transistors are they different in like if we were to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John look at the layout of the chips are they different in that way too maybe they are and like do they have different instructions

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they have different cache sizes is you know I don’t we don’t know anything about them so it’s there’s too many questions

⏹️ ▶️ ^John here but the most compelling thing I think we have is that thing that who is it that tweeted this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John John Poole tweeted graphs of the Geekbench scores for the different phones

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and it’s not labeled which ones have which CPU but you can see two humps in the in the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John 6s one and one hump and the iPhone 6 one of course the iPhone 6 one has a tremendous number of trials

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco right it was something like 20 or 30 times as many

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right but still with the small number of trials it clearly shows two humps instead of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one so in the coming days and weeks we’ll figure this out

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah I’m really curious to see and and you can tell which one you have there’s a there’s an app called

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco lyrium info light put in the show notes if you launch this it’s this you know it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco obviously made to dump a bunch of technical info the it shows the model number

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on the first screen and for the 6s it it’s n71 AP

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and then if you have the the quote good one it’s n71 M AP there’s a little lowercase

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco m in the middle model number. That is the TSMC one, and that’s the one that, if this is true, that’s the one you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco want to have. That’s the one I have, I’m very happy about that. I have not been using it long

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco enough to really say whether I’m noticing extra battery life. It seems, yeah, roughly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the same to me, but I don’t know, I haven’t really been running it down a lot during

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this usage. I keep charging it during the day, so I don’t know. Casey, did you check yours? I did.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco How’d

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you do? I have the no bueno one. Oh, no,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like dead pixels. And maybe you should just not

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} look like, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because basically you think like, am I dissatisfied with the battery life? If I’m not dissatisfied, then just don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John look.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} But it’s too late. You look whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Me, right. It seems to be fine. It doesn’t seem particularly different than the last phone.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey As with every iPhone I’ve ever owned, I wish it did better. I wish I had a few

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey more millimeters of battery somewhere in there as we’ve talked about to death, but it’s still how I feel.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} But it’s thinner.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But man, it’s so thin and so bendy. Wait, what? So anyway, so point being,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I do have the quote unquote bad one. I did not check Aaron’s phone. I have no reason to believe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that it would be any different other than, you know, just complete luck. But again, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not seen any difference in battery life from the 6 to the 6s. And so I’m not too worked

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey up about it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It is kind of unfortunate. I’m assuming that they probably just couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco get enough to make them all the TSM-C chip. I imagine that’s probably a volume and yield

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco issue. You know, you can look at it either as your phone gets worse battery life than 40% of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco them out there, or you get a bonus if you have the other one. You know, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey What I don’t understand is, I mean, last I checked, I know these phones are doing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a lot of background processing on various and sundry things. 99% of the time,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey these CPUs are sitting damn near idle, are they not? So what is it that’s making

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that much of a difference? Like good grief, that’s a big difference. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it just seems weird to me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well what’s the big difference? Because I’ve seen the reports like, oh, you get two hours different battery life. But where are they getting that number from?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The only numbers I’ve seen are these ones with this benchmark. And the benchmark scores are like, you know, 2000

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to 3500. I don’t know what those numbers mean. It’s just an arbitrary number. They’re not number of seconds or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco there was a time test on, I think it was the Engadget post, republished it from wherever it originated.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There was a time-based test, and it was like seven hours versus five hours or something like that. And I assume it’s some kind of like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s probably some kind of like, max out the CPU to run it down as quickly as you can kind of test.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I don’t know how representative that is of what you’re gonna actually do with the phone.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right, exactly. So again, this is probably a non-story. We probably shouldn’t even talk about it for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this long, But it’s worth monitoring this story.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, I mean, it’s, you know, we know they’re using two different parts, and there is precedent, as many people tweeted, for Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John using different parts from different manufacturers and one of them being the good one, as Marco knows, for someone who got, didn’t you originally

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have the MacBook Pro with the bad screen?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I had like the, I think it was the LG instead of the Samsung, or one of those. Whatever panel you didn’t want in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Retina MacBook Pro, that’s the one I had. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think it will probably be fine as long as, as like Marco said, long as the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bad chip gets, you know, and I’m sure Apple made sure of this, like as long as the bad chip

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fulfills the criteria that they put on the product page, oh you get about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this number of hours doing this, about this number of hours, and they have, you know, I’m sure there’s some little tiny asterisk that’s going to say here’s what we use

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to determine those numbers, and if someone, if there’s some class action lawsuit about it, Apple’s going to say look, the bad

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phones get these numbers, the good ones get even better, getting better numbers, congratulations, you’re lucky, like I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sure they’re covering their bases by doing that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Hope so. All right. Let’s see any other follow up worth talking about I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey think there is.

“Business as usual at ATP”

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I did want to quickly mention this awesome artwork that we got today. Ah yes, I completely forgot.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Thank you. This is fantastic. This is, I’m going to attempt your name here, this is by Mendagas

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Rudakas and it is awesome. So he drew, he illustrated

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this artwork called Business as Usual at ATP and it’s just, it’s like a comic style, three frames,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one of John, one of Casey, and one of me as we do the podcast like from the back and the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the level of like reference details in here like this is amazing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s here I’ll put the link in chat here there are so many little references

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and details that he got exactly right like it shows like you know John screen with a ton of windows

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Casey with a giant glass of water next to his Macbook air.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s just me and my red office with all the fractures, including the half-fallen-off,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco half-broken-piece fracture. And the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} mic. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the pile of microphones with SAIL written

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on it. Yep. And there’s so many little details in each of these that are correct. It even got like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco our keyboard types. I mean, it’s really quite something. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it really is. I have a glass desk, which is exactly what I have.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Although I am using what looks to be the Shure SM7B, which I haven’t used in a while.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And it does, it looks to me as though you’re using Xcode, like vaguely.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Yeah, that’s Xcode, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And it’s just magnificent. Everything about this is wonderful. I saw

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this, and this was completely unsolicited, like none of, or at least I didn’t, I didn’t think you guys had any idea this was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey coming. It just kind of showed up all of a sudden, and it is magnificent. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like Marco said, we’ll put this in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And I asked him for a high-res version that wasn’t crushed by Twitter’s terrible image compression

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and he gladly volunteered it, doesn’t even want any money for it, and suggests that I can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco put it up and have, if anybody wants to get a fracture print of it, that I can…

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco He designed it for the medium fracture size in mind, so I can put it up and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people can order fractures. So I’m definitely getting one. The reason I asked for it, it was before he even told me that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the reason I asked for it was definitely so that I could get a fracture print of it. And right as I was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco getting it from Tiff in our chat, she was upstairs and she was like, order

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this from Fracture right now. I didn’t even have to talk to her first. We both had the immediate thought,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco oh man, we’re both getting it. We have to get this and hang it in the office. So I offered to pay

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco him for the high-res version and to support his work, because this is awesome. And all he said was he won’t take money

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if people want to support his work, which I definitely He has an app in the store called Disco

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Timer. And I downloaded it before the show. It’s pretty good. It’s like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a timer and you just turn to set the time. It is so simple. It is completely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over-designed in the best possible way. It’s full of animation

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and really strong visuals. Just go buy Disco Timer

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and unlock the in-app purchase. It’s like three bucks. Just go buy, unlock this, because this guy does awesome work.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So check it out. I’ll put the link in the show notes as well. Yeah, it’s a fantastic piece of art.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It’s so good and so chock full of references. And every time I look at John’s screen, I just laugh

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a little bit because it is so out of control.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I love it. Oh yeah, there’s tons of windows and there’s a toaster oven next to John. And even like the pile

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of microphones that is sitting next to me that says sale. Those are the microphones I was selling. Like they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco actually look like, like he again, the level of he got, you know, my keyboard I mean, the level of detail

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco here is really quite something. I’m deeply impressed. And almost all the details

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey are correct. John, anything to add on this, or are you pretty much happy with what we just discussed?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s fine. There are lots of corrections I could add to it, but I don’t want to. I don’t want to put

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that into the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} head of the artist as if he’s got to go back and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fix all the mistakes,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} because they are there,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it’ll just never end. So it’s best to just go with what you’ve got, instead of spending all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your time fixing all the minor errors.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco love you John. So I think I’ll ask him to make a few alterations to yours that make

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it even less accurate and then I’ll mail you a gift fracture with an even less accurate version of yours.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} Oh

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that would be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey phenomenal.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You don’t even know all the corrections. I’ll tell you in the after show.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The after after show.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey goodness. Why don’t you tell us about something else that’s That’s awesome.

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Microsoft Surface Book

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, so Microsoft has done something interesting, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey every time I say that I have a little bit of surprise in my voice, but I shouldn’t because they’ve been doing some interesting stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for a while now. And they’ve come out with the Surface Book, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at first glance, having not really seen much about it, I was kind of like, okay.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And then I looked into it a little bit earlier today and it actually looks pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m actually fairly impressed by it. Um, one of the gripes I had about the surfaces that have existed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey thus far is that it just seemed like a terrible compromise

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in every direction. It’s kind of a meh tablet. It’s kind of a meh laptop. And it just didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey seem from a, just physically, it didn’t seem like it was a very good

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey end point for this series of compromises. This however, the Surface Book,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey looks like a much better designed laptop that can do more

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey than just a laptop. And although I haven’t had time to read into it a lot, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey am very impressed by the little bit I’ve seen so far.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This is an example of the only Apple stuff. This is an only Microsoft thing. Only Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ ^John could have made this. And why? only Microsoft has an operating system that is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the same one, you know, the same in name and in concept anyway that runs on their tablets and on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John their laptops. Apple couldn’t make this because then what would you do when you take off the tablet part?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Would it switch to iOS and then you click it back together, switch back to OS X? That would be weird. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John literally only Microsoft could make this because they’re the only one who has a software platform that works like that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So that’s kudos to them for taking advantage of, I mean, I’m sure they consider

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it their strength but surely whether it’s a strength or weakness, it’s surely a differentiator because it is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John seamless experience from having the thing connected and having it not connected because it’s not like you change OSs or anything. It’s always

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the same OS.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, and what makes this different from a hardware point of view is that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the, instead of being this like really chintzy looking kickstand, which I always thought was so ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It has, what do they call this? A snake hinge, a spider hinge, some sort of fancy hinge that had a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey animal analogy. Anyways, it has this weird hinge so you can fold it back on top of the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and then you can just pop the tablet-y part out and use it as a traditional tablet,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey which also looks pretty good except for the fact that it appears at least on the right side, if not both

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey sides. It’s got a humongous grill for the fan, which is a little unfortunate. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey by and large, it looks like it’s a lot less chintzy than all the Surfify

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey surfaces to date have been. I don’t know. Marco, what do you think about this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco My concern with this, so right now it looks really good. It looks amazing. Hardware-wise,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’d be really interested if Apple made something like this. Of course, we know they won’t. But I’d be really interested

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if Apple made something like this because I know that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I am ultimately a laptop person when it comes to mobile computing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco With the iPad, it doesn’t resonate with me the way it does with a lot of people. I am really a laptop person

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with the kind of work I like to do and the way I like to do it. But I am occasionally

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco interested in stuff like taking a screen somewhere for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco some kind of like touch or or pen input. I am very interested in pen type stuff to see like what I could do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with that even though in real life I’m not much of a pen person and maybe that’s just telling right there I don’t need it but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the hardware on this does look really interesting. Unfortunately the software

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is still Windows and and I I don’t mean to be you know too harsh on Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco here because it does kind of feel like kicking them while they’re down but Windows,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the best that people can say about it these days, which is the best that people keep saying about their

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hardware, is what you open up with Casey, that it’s interesting. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco interesting is great. People have been saying that, you know, when Windows Phone 8

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco came out, whatever that was officially called, when Windows 8 came out with the phone thing and the whole redesign

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and the artist formerly known as Metro Interface style, people said the same thing. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this is really interesting. People said the same thing about webOS.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That webOS was really interesting and you know even before that like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco BOS was really interesting. There’s lots of things can get the tech press to say they’re interesting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and to get geeks like us to look at them and say oh that’s interesting. The problem is how often that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco translates or doesn’t translate into actually buying and using these things. So many

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of the reviews of these interesting products in the in tech history have all been

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like yeah, this would be really nice maybe for somebody who’s not me. And that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco seems to always be the case. Like the Surface Book here, this would be really interesting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for us if we weren’t already using Macs for everything. And that, you know, like it’s like, yeah, okay, this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would be really interesting if we loved the Windows world, but didn’t love the other PCs that have been keeping us there

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all this time. And I bet a lot of people are going to look at this and say it’s interesting, but I bet very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco few of them are actually going to buy And that’s that’s been the problem Microsoft has had with a lot of their recent stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh Mac users aren’t gonna buy it, right? but this is not this is different than Windows phone and that there is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John built-in customer base for this because Microsoft is surely this time presenting it as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a laptop. Hey, we made a laptop Oh, and by the way, the screen comes off and you kind of use as a tablet, but yeah

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t know if you know this Marco but I don’t think you would want it because the tablet part gets like a four hour battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John life because half the bat more than Half the batteries like 80% of the batteries is in the base or whatever So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they split them. I guess that makes sense for weight reasons. You’d have to that’s crazy. Yeah, they have this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with the battery But anyway, it’s a four hour battery life on the table But anyway Microsoft are presenting this as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John forget about the whole detaching thing This is just a good Windows notebook and Windows notebook is not like a speculative

⏹️ ▶️ ^John product like the surface was where it’s like I don’t know. Maybe people want to use this thing with the stand and the pen people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John buy Windows notebooks That is a thing that people buy this looks like a pretty good Windows notebook

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like the performance is good. The design is pretty nice the features they tout about it like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the keyboard looks like it’s well designed. One of the features they touted has really good key travel on the keys. And again, how

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can they have good key travel on the keys? Because the computer is in the screen. And the only thing that’s in the keyboard part

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is the the batteries and you know, a GPU and some other stuff. And that you know, it also doesn’t have the teardrop

⏹️ ▶️ ^John shape. Yeah, the tech the tech part is interesting, because like it’s dual GPU. So in the base

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where the keyboard is, there’s a bunch of battery, there’s a keyboard and there’s a big GPU

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and in the tablet part of it there’s a smaller GPU and some battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the actual CPU and the memory and the rest of the guts of the computer. I would love to know what their interconnect is like is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it some proprietary PCI Express thing is it actually Thunderbolt over a custom connector

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not a standard connector they made up their own connector and even that like they’re doing interesting Apple style things like oh how

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do we we connect the top to the bottom part with these little like, uh, I think I call

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them like metal muscles, but it’s like wires that remember their shape and reform to their shape. If you apply current to them

⏹️ ▶️ ^John using that to sort of pull tight these little clasps and stuff and they have like a little, it’s like your BMW marker. Like when

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they disengage the uh, the little hooks to let you know it’s disengaged, the speakers play a sound like a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John snick. So, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} know, so you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when, you know, it is a, you know, just again, ignoring the tablet part of it, it’s a pretty neat windows laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And so I think their positioning of this product as a Windows laptop first and by the way it has this pen and touch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stuff second is really smart. And I think it’s not doomed like the surface

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is it to be like, well, it’s interesting, but I don’t really want one because even though we’re not going to get it because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we want to run OS 10, right? People who are already buying Windows laptops who are in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the market for a small Windows laptop that they travel with or whatever. And they’re looking at well, should I get like a Dell

⏹️ ▶️ ^John laptop? Or should I get a Lenovo laptop? Or should I get this thing? This has a lot of appeal because it’s nicer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John looking than the most of the other, you know, Windows notebooks. I see it’s it’s interesting with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the the tablet angle. And you can always say like, well, if I know if the tablet thing turns out not to be useful to me, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John still a nice laptop. So I think I have feel

⏹️ ▶️ ^John good things about this this product success in the market. The only question marks in my mind in terms of how

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re going to do selling this is just a plain old laptop is like how good is it Microsoft in manufacturing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things anymore? Because they’re making this themselves. They’re not outsourcing as far as I understand. And they have a lot of practice with the surface and dealing with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John manufacturing things. And like this is this is a skill set that Microsoft is developing. Apple has developed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it. Apple’s got it right. And presumably Lenovo and Dell and all those other things have their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John own version of this expertise, right? But Microsoft is clearly aiming at the we want the fit and finish of an

⏹️ ▶️ ^John apple type product, the design expertise of an apple type product. And I guess they’re probably going to go for we want to be as good a manufacturer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as Apple to but that’s a long road. They’re currently traveling that road. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it is an interesting product. I think it, it is a smart move. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mean, they did, they did make the surface for like, they’re still going in that surface direction, but this is a smart move to say,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, this is a product that only Microsoft could make. Uh, it advances our goals

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on all fronts in terms of getting better at making products and having them well-designed and stuff like that. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it will appeal to an an actual customer base that is, you know, every year buying a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of Windows. Now, Windows laptops is not a growth industry. You know, neither are Macs for that matter, although they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John growing more than that. But hey, you know, start small. Like as I think it was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Satya Nadella said, what is it, like, these are our colorful iMacs. I guess everything can’t be their colorful iMacs, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re recognizing that they’re in the beginning stage of a resurgence.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, and I think this is the right way to do it. You know, like, I think if they want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco get more like the Apple like market or the Apple like appeal of having this really nice hardware with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco good integration with the software. You know, people have been saying that one of the problems they have with this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is their relationship with OEMs and how this is going to change that and harm that possibly. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t think that’s really a concern at this point, because I think, you know, what is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Dell going to do? Start putting Linux in those things? No, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going to copy this design. They have the same thing with all the servers. Like that’s what what the all of the OEMs will do. They will make things that look

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and act just like this, which I think is also fine with Microsoft.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, but I think what we’ve seen over the last, I don’t know, decade, where Microsoft has been

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco pushing various things here and there, and the OEMs have been trying to compete better with Apple, and I think what we keep seeing over

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and over again is that the Windows PC makers just aren’t very good

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at really truly competing with Apple on hardware, for whatever reason. If they just can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do it right, or if they just can’t take the margin hit by making better stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whatever the case may be, they aren’t doing it. So if Microsoft can step in and attempt to do it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco then more power to them. The biggest problem I think with this though is, kind of going back to what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I was saying earlier, but who will buy this and will it appeal

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to them? So right now, people who have wanted a premium quality, well thought

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco out, highly integrated computer for the last decade or more have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco been buying Macs. Even PC people like me and Casey who started out as PC people,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco many of us, especially in the web developer community, so many of us moved to Macs over the last

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco decade that the question of who’s gonna switch back I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco think is gonna be a pretty small number and all the remaining people who use PCs, which is still, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco think it’s still by far the dominant platform, the question is will this appeal to those people?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Relative to if you look at why people who do buy PCs who aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco buying Macs Why they still buy PCs and a lot of that is is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for you know cheaper hardware much more variety of the type of hardware That’s available

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Different types of you know more powerful stuff you can get for the money or more powerful if you can get in Different

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco form factors like you know people people buy PCs often want like really beefy gaming

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco GPUs and laptops and stuff like that, or people who buy stuff for offices, want stuff to be really cheap

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and easily managed and stuff. So, will the people who are still buying PCs

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco today want to buy this? And I know some of them will, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the question is, will enough buy it to really matter, to really kind of shift things around and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco start meaningful momentum behind this? And I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think the answer is definitely yes. So my brother-in-law is deep into

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the Microsoft stack. He does the same sort of work I do, typically more around

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey CMSs than I do, although I do a lot of that work. He sent me a text

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey today telling me that he was getting the Surface Book. He was getting the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey new version of the Microsoft Band. And I didn’t ask him if he’s going to stick with his Windows phone or not,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I’m pretty sure he’s feeling the pain in that department, but he loves his existing Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey band, he loves his existing Surface, and he is seriously amped up over

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the Surface Book. And I think the thing is that for PC users

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that are genuinely content being PC users, not ones with a philandering eye that are looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at Apple saying, hmm, that looks interesting, But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey ones who are really into PCs, they’re saying this is perfect. It is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the no-compromise machine that really is nothing but compromises. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s the no-compromise machine. It is a perfect tablet that can do anything, not like your piece

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of crap iPad that can only do iPad things. It can do anything as

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey soon as it becomes a tablet. I don’t have to compromise and use a neutered operating system.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey when I feel like typing, I have a perfectly good full-size keyboard. Not this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey hacky keyboard that kind of folds up on itself and folds around behind or in front or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It’s a full, honest-to-goodness keyboard. This is perfect for those kinds

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of people. I’m not saying I’m one of them. I can’t imagine that this would be terribly great to use.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And even though I’ve heard great things about Windows 10, I have no particular interest in getting into that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey However, if you’re in that mindset of I want something with no compromises. I don’t want Apple telling me what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to do and how to do it. I want something that I can do whatever I want with in any form factor

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at any time with no compromises, again, actually built on compromises, then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey this is the thing for me and it really is playing to their market. And I think it’s doing it well. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I admire what they’re doing. I think they’re playing to their market very well. It’s just that that’s not for me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I think it’s safe to say it’s not for you guys either.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s like, can I now list everything that’s wrong with us now that we all said nice things about it? Sure. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this is kind of shooting fish in a barrel. If you want to feel better about it, think about the first Mac book air,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which was also a mess as a product. And this is doing better than that. But anyway, uh, let’s start with the hinge that we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just talked about. Uh, this, this, if you haven’t seen the pictures, you’d be like, what did I talk about the hinge? A hinge is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just a hinge, right? This hinge is weird because well, first thing you have to know about it is when it’s in the closed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John position, the top half does not touch the bottom half completely like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it does on the Mac laptops there’s a big gap like you could drop coins you could put the thing vertically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and drop coins through it is like a big opening you can see Dale you can see daylight through it a very large opening

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there is actually one advantage to this very large opening which Andy and not go pointed out is that you don’t get your finger

⏹️ ▶️ ^John schmutz from the keys onto the screen that has happened with a lot of Mac laptops in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the past and I don’t know if any of the current ones have the problem you guys can tell me that I don’t really use

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco laptops the 15 does a little bit It depends a lot on how you put it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in your bag and what is pushing against it. If you don’t have a lot of pressure that pushes it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco more closed, if that makes sense, if you can avoid that kind of pressure in your bag with either how

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you put it in or how much other stuff you put in the bag with it, you generally won’t get those marks.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, anyway, and that’s a problem Apple can solve by, hey, guess what, I had a little extra clearance there. But anyway, that is the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one advantage to that thing. They

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco killed the keyboard, John. The one place you need

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} clearance. I know, I know. They’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco oh, we can cut, that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John important. We can cut that out. I bet the MacBook one keys don’t touch the screen because they’re so repressed,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, they don’t even poke up from the anyway. The disadvantage, of course, is that it makes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the wide and wider, it makes it really wide. And that’s not great for like you want.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I it depends on how you feel about like you’ve seen ever seen those things where they show like a picture of a bunch of pencils all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John lined up a one pencil is poking out and various other things that are slightly disordered. And if you’re the type of person who likes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like all your books lined up neatly on your bookshelf and all your things just so looking at those picture can give you discomfort.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This laptop, I’m one of those people, by the way, this laptop gives me a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} bit of discomfort of like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can’t you just can just close it, just close it all the way to make it flat, like you just want to just stomp

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on that hinge to anyway. So the practical consideration is that it makes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the thing wider on the end, which isn’t great, because you do want a laptop to be thin. Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the screen part of it is basically the computer and the bottom part of it, even though it has a GPU

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and a keyboard and a bunch of ports on it is not the computer. This screen part is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wider than you would expect on a laptop because these days on the Mac laptops the screen part is really thin. All it is is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a screen. It’s really really really thin. This can’t be really thin. That’s where the whole CPU is. There’s a fan in there. There’s a whole bunch of other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stuff. And as we know from other surfaces when you do that that makes that top part heavy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and if you’re not careful when you put it in a laptop shape it can tip over because if you know because you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have it at exactly a right angle you open up to a wider angle than that. And once you open up to a wider angle, if the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John top part is heavy and the keyboard part is light, it can just tip over. And of course, you don’t want to do that. You want it to stay

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a laptop, right? That’s what this hinge is doing. They’re so close. Like basically what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they did was they took the battery. Battery is their ballast, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So they’ve got, we got the GPU here, we got the CPU in the screen there, we got the ports, but we haven’t put battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John anywhere yet. In that arrangement with no battery anywhere, the top is heavier because the the top has more stuff in it. Like it is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just the screen alone, the glass on the screen, like it is just the heaviest part. And so like, all right, this thing doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stand upright in this situation, but we haven’t put any battery in yet. We need to distribute the battery so it sits

⏹️ ▶️ ^John upright. And they don’t want to take all the battery and shove it into the keyboard part because then when you detach it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as a tablet you get 30 seconds of battery life. So they want as much as possible in the screen. So they’re doing this balancing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John act where like, put some battery in the bottom, put some battery in the top, and just doing this it’s gonna balance like how can we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get it so it doesn’t tip over but we have the most battery possible in the top part. And to get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just a little bit of extra battery in the top part to get it to not tip over, that’s where the hinge comes in. Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when you open the hinge, the hinge effectively makes the base wider. Like it puts the heavy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John part farther away. You can, you know, we’ll have Dr. Drang do the force diagram for you. But like, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} basically,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the hinge lays down on the table, effectively making the base longer so that the weight that’s at the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John end of the base that the part like where the track pad is which by the way is a glass trackpad and not a chintzy plastic one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that weight now can hold that in down better like they’re getting just a little bit of extra stability

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by making the hinge suddenly become part of like the three segments of the hinge become part of the bottom

⏹️ ▶️ ^John part of the hinge and you’re like seriously does that extra half an inch or a centimeter make a difference that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what kind of hairline they’re drawing in terms of like tip ability not ability I’m not saying it’s like teetering on the brink

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m saying they had some criteria for how typical they want it to be like where center of gravity is or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and those three little segments that lay on the table when you open it up you give them a little bit of extra margin let

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them put a little bit of extra battery in the top part that is like Casey said is a hell of a compromise

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like this hinge is not there for design reasons it’s not there for style reasons and it’s not there to keep your fingers from us off the screen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by putting a half-inch gap between the key caps on the screen it’s there to try to work

⏹️ ▶️ ^John around the compromise they’ve they’ve had to deal with and you know the final compromise is that tablet gets four hours

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a battery life and that is just no good like if you want to if you want to use it as a tablet

⏹️ ▶️ ^John any substantial amount of time don’t get this one like get the actual surface pro 4

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like because most of the battery in this thing is in the base part of it and the final thing i would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John say is for microsoft design everything i admire all the interesting things that they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John doing and that they’re trying to gain these expertise but they still seem with their hardware

⏹️ ▶️ ^John designs if not their software designs trapped in the white room that Johnny I’ve made. This is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a silver metallic laptop. It’s got a light up logo on the back of it. That’s not shaped like an Apple. It’s shaped like the little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John silly Windows logo, which is not a great look like squint. And it looks like every other laptop and every other laptop

⏹️ ▶️ ^John looks like Apple laptops. I know it’s magnesium and not aluminum, but like the aesthetic, the overall

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sort of, you know, the keys are look like Apple’s keys, but they’re, you know, magnesium instead. And they’re not dome switches or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like Apple. So dominates hardware design visually that every single other the computer including

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Microsoft’s super innovative ones just they just live in the shadow of everything that Apple’s design

⏹️ ▶️ ^John team has done and I feel like eventually they’re gonna have to go their own way and get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out of that shadow like it’s the Johnny I think the Johnny I’ve said a million times like we want to make a design that after we do what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everyone thinks it’s inevitable and it’s it’s the blessing and the curse because like people like well of course that’s what a laptop has to be shipped

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like because that’s what they’re shaped like no that’s just the way Johnny I’ve made them like don’t accept his it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John actually inevitable. It’s great design that makes you think it’s inevitable, but it’s like everyone else is like, well, this is what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John laptops look like. We have no choice but to make a lap down to making a glass trackpad for crying out loud. They use the materials,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the colors, the appearance, just, you know, again, Microsoft getting out of the materials and we’re going to use

⏹️ ▶️ ^John magnesium. It’s better than aluminum. And we’re going to deal with only manufacturing. It’s like, fine, good. But like you still end up making a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John silver laptop with your glowing logo on the back of it. So that’s it for someone who has never

⏹️ ▶️ ^John actually touched one of these things, just looking at at the pictures of what I think is wrong with this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It gets up to 12 hours of video playback John

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when it’s connected to the giant battery and the keyboard. I found a typo

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on their website. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the link here I put a page in the show notes on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco their main page under tech specs. You scroll down past the picture of the two laptops choose the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco power you need and it says Intel core i5 with Intel HG graphics. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco supposed to be HD graphics Intel HD graphics don’t exist. Hopefully, they put more attention to detail

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco into the actual manufacturing of the product.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The OS integration is again, you know, it’s great that Microsoft, not only Microsoft, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple can do it as well, but it’s a typical Apple move like, hey, we’re going to make this weird thing with two GPUs.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Is that going to be supported well in Windows? Yeah, because we write Windows. So we’ll make sure that, you know, it’s kind of like when

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple did the GPU switching where we have discrete and integrated in the same laptop and we’ll smartly switch between

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them. And Apple kind of screwed that up. Hopefully, Microsoft did a better job because they basically have the same thing they have the big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John faster GPU in the keyboard part and the lower power not as fast GPU in the tablet part

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I’m assuming it does some either if not smart smart switching between them and just two modes like one all discrete and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one all integrated.

Laptop design rut

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Going back a sec to what you said about about Johnny I’ve trap of design here

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Honestly and bringing this back to Apple a little bit. I would love to see more variety I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it seems like Apple’s computer design is really kind of stuck in a rut, and I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know I don’t maybe Johnny I’ve has Has just reached the limit of what he cares to do on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco computer designs

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Him it’s his team, but anyway the Mac Pro was a breath of fresh air or not so fresh air But you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John say it look like an aluminum a machined rounded corner rectangle.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That’s true, yeah. The Mac Pro I think looks great. It’s, I don’t know, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we all know that they really mostly just sell laptops these days and I am a little bit, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, maybe I’m just bored because I’ve been using laptops that look basically the same for the last 15 year,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 10 years that I’ve been buying Macs. So, I don’t know, I would love to see

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a little more variety in what Apple offers. Well, they are doing colors now, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The colors are barely different from each other. I get what you’re saying though. They are very, like there is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we are in a rut. We are in a design rut for this and there is room to do more

⏹️ ▶️ ^John interesting things, but here’s what I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the problem that Apple faces with this design, I think we talked about this in past shows for laptops. One, laptops are constrained by

⏹️ ▶️ ^John being laptops to some degree. You can make the Mac Pro a weird tube, because whatever, like you don’t carry

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it around. Laptops, for the most part, have to be a thing that is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John small and light and that is reasonably portable, which probably means it has to fold flat into some kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of shape that’s not too big to fit in a bag. Like those constraints really, you know, the screen’s not gonna be circular.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like there’s only so much you can do. And within the constraints, you know, and the Apple design has been like, oh, we just need

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to refine it down to its essence and blah, blah, blah. And they’ve been doing that. And they eventually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John settled on material, which is big giant blocks of aluminum that they carve out that’s strong and light and attractive and durable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and all that stuff, which is just so much better than everything else they tried which included plastic and titanium

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and aluminum that wasn’t carved out of a single giant block. The aluminum unibody

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is a great design for a laptop. Like, and so the problem they’re faced with is either

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we can continue to do aesthetic things with the single block aluminum, which I think there’s room for that. Like you can make a Darth Vader black

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one and charge 150 extra dollars for it in the tradition of the old black book. And that would be great.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Or you can make one that has like a mirror finish or something like, I don’t, you know, Like there are things you can do within the metal, but that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mostly just, you know, surface design. To go to the next stage of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John design, you have to change materials. And I’m sure in a lab somewhere, Apple is constantly evaluating,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is aluminum really the best material to make a laptop out of? Is there anything else? Can we do carbon fiber? Can we revisit titanium?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What about magnesium? Microsoft’s doing that. Like new materials could mean something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John new for them. And especially if they, you know, say now we’re into the era where things are gonna be flexible instead of rigid, we have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like floppy OLED screens that roll out on little stilts or I don’t know but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the foreseeable future I think machined aluminum is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the best choice and then there are aesthetic choices within that are constrained both by being a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and by like there’s only so much you can do with it but you know in the end their timid

⏹️ ▶️ ^John tinting of the aluminum is still pretty wimpy like a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John jet black one alone would be exciting enough that maybe you’d be like, oh, that looks cool. I’ll be interested to not have yet another

⏹️ ▶️ ^John million silver laptops in my house.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right. I mean, look at what they’re able to do with the iPod Touch colors. They look great. And the iPods from forever ago, like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco iPod Nano, the iPod Touch, those have these bold, bright colors that change every

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco few years. And that would be really interesting on laptops, on the phones.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But they’re so much more conservative. And I’m sure there’s good reason for that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, design, marketing, fashion, whatever. But I admit I’m really kind of bored

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with their designs. And maybe that’s obviously a really stupid thing to whine about, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I would like to see them try a little bit more variety there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You got to be careful what you ask for, though, because the thing that just flashed into my mind was a MacBook One,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is not actually called the MacBook One, new listeners, which is what we call it, the really skinny one with the bad keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But where it’s still or maybe it’s black or maybe it’s like tinted gray or you know, whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like it’s still aluminum. The only thing you have to mess with color wise there is the keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Why not make the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Dalmatian? Why not make the keyboard flower power?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like these are things that have happened. Like why did the Dalmatian flower power

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} exist? Because at a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John certain point you’re like, the iMac is defined by CRT, we’ve got a slot loading drive, we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John done a bunch of tweaks to the design. You know what? We’ve got this big giant canvas, let’s do something with it. They don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have much of a canvas in the other ones. I guess they could make the back of the screen have weird. You see all this aftermarket stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where they’re like laser etch your laptop with like flowers or whatever. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not there’s only so much room for for things until you for innovation in this space if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stick to aluminum unless you start saying all right it’s time to wallpaper things time to just like there’s a bunch of services

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that I treat as billboards and I’m just going to put a bunch of stuff on them and I don’t think the flower power and Dalmatian

⏹️ ▶️ ^John IMAX which are real things young people that actually happened. I don’t think they sold very well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but that’s sort of the logical conclusion of we are in a design rut and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we can’t think of anything else. We’ve done colors, we’ve done shapes, we’re stuck with this until we can come up

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with the flat panel iMac, you know, in which case they started innovating again in the design. At the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John very end of that life cycle, they said, all right, patterns, whatever.

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Gmail spam filtering is really good by most accounts. And so to match spam filtering there, it’s very hard, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, the the old approaches of like, you know, just running spam bays or mail assassin, that kind of stuff. That

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the mail to your real mail server. So they basically just shield you from all that crap

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at the service level. So you can use any app you want, doesn’t matter. You can use any iMap provider you want,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco any email host you want. If you’re on your own email servers, this is especially interesting for you, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this can dramatically reduce the load on them. You can save money on just having fewer servers and you can just

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco incredibly good. I really cannot overstate this. And by most accounts, from people who have used both,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they actually say it’s better than Gmail spam filtering. So you can get the best spam filtering I’ve

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. Question for you guys. Do we really care that Jack Dorsey’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey back at Twitter? Because I do not

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} care. I couldn’t possibly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey care less. A lot of our friends are like really excited about this and I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey don’t care. Why should I care?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, I care about Twitter, but the Twitter leadership

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over the years has been such a revolving door that’s just like, I don’t know. It seems like they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have a lot of issues up there that are way above most of our heads, and it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco really… I don’t know. I think Twitter is a really, really useful

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco thing, a really important thing in the world right now, and I hope they don’t screw it up. But I have no idea whether this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is a step in the right direction or not. I have no clue.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, that’s the thing, too. I care about Twitter’s leadership. I care about the direction Twitter as a Twitter user but I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t know enough about Jack Dorsey or the history behind the leadership or what’s really going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on behind the scenes to know whether this is a good or a bad thing or it’s just you know wait five minutes and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John someone else will be in charge so it doesn’t matter so I really hope this is a good thing a lot of people seem to think it is but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I have no particular information or faith that this is going to make things better than they have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John been.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean I will say that it did seem like they were going in a bad direction. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, a change is probably for the best. But, you know, the reason they were going in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a bad direction was probably not because of who the CEO was. It’s probably because of all the pressures

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they’re facing. You know, they face so much pressure. Now they’re a public company, and they’re really not hitting their growth

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or usage goals. They’re under so much pressure from everybody, from

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the investors, from the public, from the press, almost certainly from from the board as a result of all those things,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they are under so much pressure to juice their numbers and really get the growth

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and get the usage up because they’re not keeping up with where they wanted to be and their stock price isn’t doing that well as a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco result and blah, blah, blah. And so it has a lot less to do, I think, with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco somebody sitting in a conference room saying, this is what I feel is best for the product. I think instead it’s like dealing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with that giant pile of crap that whoever is in charge of Twitter has to deal with now as a result

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of these market pressures and them really not hitting their numbers recently. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that, you know, anybody in that position is gonna have a big challenge. It does seem

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like people are confident in Jack and he does seem to have a lot of political capital there. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe this is promising, who knows? But it’s not a simple problem

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and it’s not, you know, that the things they change might not be, you know, all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco great and lucky for us. I mean, Dick Costolo was doing a pretty good job on a lot of fronts.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco He wasn’t doing great on everything, but he was doing pretty well on a lot of things. And a lot of those things were things we didn’t like, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco some of the monetization and ad stuff. But he was doing fairly well on that kind of stuff, as far as I know. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t think… If Twitter starts making changes to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco keep themselves afloat, to keep numbers going up to keep their product

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco going where it should be going. Most of that sounds to me like they need

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to do things we don’t like. They need to inject

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} ads

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco into the stream for third party clients. They need to actually really not boost third party clients

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because they need to take control of their own product. This is all stuff that I don’t like, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s probably going to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The control of their own product, A, they’ve kind of had it for a while, and B, it’s clear they don’t know what to do with that control. Like they it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like now we control the product and what we’re going to do with it is let most of our clients rot to crap

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and then we don’t know what we’re going to do with a few clients we do pay attention to. And so that’s it’s like well you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John got the control but the second part of having the control is doing something with that control and so far they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just been floundering. Like it makes that’s why people are optimistic like oh Jack Dorsey

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’ll maybe understand that developers are important. Like I’m not saying that’s a good strategy but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at least that’s a strategy where something would happen. Like I think the problem has been there hasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John been a clear like the direction was like okay so much for third parties we’re going to take control but they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like they didn’t take that and take the ball and run with it like all right we’ve got control now let’s go boldly off into this direction

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which may have been the wrong direction but at least you can say well this is the thing they did. They took control from third party developers and they ran

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as fast as they could in this direction and guess what there was a brick wall oh well but at least they tried something.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The only thing that we know would have some effect is, well, you could

⏹️ ▶️ ^John run back in the other direction where it used to be like, oh, third parties are welcome. And everybody who wants to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have an API key, well, maybe we’ll have some revenue sharing arrangement where if you sell a Twitter client

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and use our API, you have to give us a percentage of the money or something like that. But that’s not going to make them rich. That’s not going to move the needle

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on their stock price. We know it would work. Developers would love to do it. Third party clients would flourish.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They would make some money off of it, but it would be peanuts compared to what they have to make to be the company that everyone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thinks they’re supposed to be. The only good thing you can say about Twitter at this point is no matter who’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in charge, eventually as these CEOs rotate, as bad as things get, as long

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as Twitter continues to be like it is now, somebody can always sell it. There’s plenty of people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who will buy Twitter right now, today, if the price is right, including probably Apple, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Twitter is still a thing. It is popular. Hashtags are everywhere. You see them on TV. It

⏹️ ▶️ ^John has gotten into the culture to the degree that worst case scenario, the very, very worst

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is the last CEO out the door sells the company to one of the million eager buyers.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Maybe not for what they could have got at the peak of their fame, but surely enough to give that CEO a golden parachute

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and to say, well, we made some money for our investors and it’s fine. And we couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John figure out what to do with the company. Let it be absorbed into another company that has some other way to make tons of money.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And we’re just like a little nice to have value at.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, we’ll see. I don’t know. I just I’ve been trying to get excited about this and I just don’t care. Have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you guys seen the new moment thing? I don’t even know what anyone’s talking about with that. Yeah, neither do I.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I like I like the fact that like that’s the Twitter that we don’t use like the Twitter people use the official client.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s like it’s everybody who’s not a tech nerd and cable sasser. I think are

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} the people who use the official Twitter client.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And the teachee I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe I think even he finally went back. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know. Here’s the thing. I still launched the official. I had the official client store installed and I still launch it every once in a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John while mostly because I This is irrational, but I don’t when people send

⏹️ ▶️ ^John me Twitter DMS all of the third-party clients I feel nervous about whether I’m correctly using

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them to send DMS and the official Twitter client has a more reassuring interface for DMS I’ve found

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even tweetbot for which I just installed tonight I was gonna do some DMS over there and I hit like the plus

⏹️ ▶️ ^John button and typed in someone’s name and It didn’t come up in the search. I’m like, well, I know this person follows me, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t follow them and it’s not coming up and I don’t know how to send this person a message and I’m always afraid to do D space, you know, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John old the old ways,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John old ways may be the best ways, but at this point, I’m so nervous that some Twitter client is not going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to honor the D space, whatever name and I’m going to publicly tweet something that I’m trying to DM. So anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all this to say is that I do launch the official tutorial client on a, you know, maybe once a month or so.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And just I can’t make heads or tails of it in there. I don’t know what’s going on. I just want to get the hell out of there and back to any

⏹️ ▶️ ^John other client as fast as I can.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Well, just for what it’s worth, John, if you ever need a DM guinea pig, I’m happy to be that guy. I’m here

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey for you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, that’s the problem. Like it’ll work on you. And then like, I’ll accidentally put an extra space in or use

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a capital D because I didn’t notice that the shift key was auto down and just I just feel I want to read more reassuring

⏹️ ▶️ ^John GUI interfaces like you’re in the DM zone now. And first, you’re going to pick the person you’re DMing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by tapping on them, like not typing their name. And the next is okay, this is a DM to this person,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the UI clearly states that you’re in a DM to this person, type your DM here, and the only thing you can do from that screen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is type a DM, right? I’m really nervous about just the generic field. Even though I used to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do it back in the old days, now that, especially now that DM link limits are up and people are using it more like IM, I just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wanna get the hell off Twitter DM as fast as possible because I’m so afraid that I’m gonna accidentally start,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, put something in public that shouldn’t be. That’s bad enough with like iMessages with everything in one window. I’m constantly sending

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people the wrong message because I didn’t notice which thing is selected the sidebar because it’s a single window interface. You

⏹️ ▶️ ^John need your windows. I know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Adium

⏹️ ▶️ ^John remembers the size and position of the windows for each individual person. I’m way less likely to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do wrong window in Adium than I am in the admin messages. And historically, like, I just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John did it the other day, I’m pretty much average, every other month I send someone the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ ^John message in iMessage. And Adium, I think I’ve maybe done it once in three years.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Wow. I can’t believe you still use Adium?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, I mean, I can’t with all you iMessage people. Sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I signed out of my AIM name, I think a couple of years ago, and just like I just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco removed it from iChat and just like, yeah, I’m done.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I think pretty much everyone I converse with in a way that I would previously have described

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey as instant messaging, it’s all iMessage or very rarely just text messages

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that I’m typing on my Mac.

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Connelly Excellent.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So Tweetbot 4 came out, finally, and it’s really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey good. I’m really liking it. And, you know, I was talking about this recently

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on another show, and I have nothing against Twitterific. I love

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Craig Hockenberry to death. And I like Twitterific, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it doesn’t operate the way my brain operates. And that doesn’t make it wrong by any stretch. And clearly, John, it operates

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the way your brain operates.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Is it just the unified timeline?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey No, the unified timeline doesn’t bother me. But you know, the way Tweetbot has

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the… I’m thinking specifically about the phone and I used Twitterific more

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on the iPad. I don’t have my iPad within arm’s reach. But looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at replies, I know there was a tab for that. Gosh, it’s a very valid question

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that I can’t remember off the top of my head what would bother me about it. But any time I went to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey drill deeper into a conversation, for example, something about it was always backwards from what I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey expected. It’s just things didn’t work the way I expected them to.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Whereas in TweetBot, everything worked the way I expected it to. I’ll have to take it as homework

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to come up with some specifics for next week

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Was it like the swipe directions and stuff is like sometimes swipe directions are like muscle memory Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t if you ask me I don’t even know what the swipe directions are to show the conversation and or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John replies and stuff in Twitter If my fingers just do them. It’s kind of like emacs key combos I’ve realized

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I’ve realized

⏹️ ▶️ ^John now with new people at work who I try to tell emacs key things to That I don’t know what the keys are

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my hands know but I don’t know. And I try to explain it and I say the wrong thing and they try and like I tried that and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John nothing happened. I’m like, I guess that’s not it. And I said, I have to put my hands on the keyboard and just just do this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m like, Oh, yeah, it’s control x B. But it’s not control. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in all fairness, nobody knows what emacs can keep.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} Some people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know them. But like, but muscle memory is it with iOS apps with gestures, I find this true a lot of the case where you just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get used to like, and it’s weird to say like is it swipe to the left? It depends on how you conceptualize

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it. Like am I revealing more information from the right or am I moving the virtual tile to the left?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know TweetBot has like the controls on the bottom and Twitter if it like doesn’t reveal an extra set of controls

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the bottom. And anyway, I can see how the gestures might be different. But I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a surmountable like the muscle memory is a surmountable thing. But anyway, TweetBot’s fine. I’ve got installed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Twitter for clients. I got installed. Unified timeline is my big feature. But other than that, I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s like six and one half. doesn’t the other

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and that’s probably true and the thing of it is is that just for me it’s gestures it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s some of the ways things are displayed I’m actually opening it on my phone even though I don’t typically use

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I never use Twitter if I got my phone just some of this stuff was just kind of backwards and weird to me

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey when I swipe to see a conversation the thing although I Twitter to a tweet pod

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is now doing this which kind of drives me crazy but the the tweet that I was looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey into the conversation for so kind of the subject of that gesture is all the way at the bottom, which drives me crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And now TweetBot’s doing that, which drives me insane. Um, that always kind of annoyed me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Um, let’s see, replying was always basically okay. I don’t know. I’ll have to play around with it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey again and, and see what it was that bothered me. But maybe it just does come down to gestures, just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey being backwards from what I’m expecting. In any case, TweetBot is out. It includes the iPad app.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Um, I love it. I think it’s great. I like the new activity tab. I’m a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey sad that a while ago now the retweets tab kind of died in a fire, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I used to like looking at.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I miss that too. I campaigned during the beta, but the activity screen

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco went out.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I did the same and I was told, I know in certain terms it’s not happening. But I do like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey activity screen. I think it’s kind of cool. Definitely not something I should be looking at because the last thing I need

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to do is be looking at Twitter more and trying to engage with my brand more. But nevertheless,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I do like it. I think it’s cool. But there was a lot of anger, as with every time

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that the Tweetbots, excuse me, Tapbots guys, release a new version that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey costs money. People are really upset about paying $5 for an app that, if they’re anything like me, they use for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey hours every single day. And, geez, just when are we going to get off this treadmill?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, you know, I wonder, like, how much of it is just people who can be safely ignored?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know because the reality is they still hit number one paid app on on the chart I don’t know where they are now

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but they hit that on their launch day so you know it’s selling well you’re always going to have when you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that many people you’re going to have a lot of people who complain and it’s always just a percentage

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of the user base who’s going to be angry no matter what the question is are you know are there

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco more than what could be expected for that number of people and honestly I don’t think there are I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco mean I don’t see their support email and I don’t I don’t read other tweets so I don’t know but from From just what I’ve heard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco here and there, what I’ve seen, I looked at their App Store reviews and it doesn’t seem like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco any worse than what you’d expect from any app that had that many people using it. So yeah, they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco charge for an upgrade. Who cares? The people who care are people who

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think we’d all be better off just ignoring those people honestly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I think you’re right. But I love the new app. I think it’s great. I’ve always loved TweetBot. I will probably forever

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey love TweetBot. Marco, I assume you’re into it as well. You’re digging it? Yeah, I mean, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey been using it for a while and I really like it. John, is it just not even worth you looking? I mean, I know you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey said you installed it, but not even worth you taking seriously because no unified timeline?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, it’s my backup Twitter client. Like if I want, if something is wonky or if I wanna make sure this is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a client issue or if I want to, you know, views, I like the activity view. I don’t think I would ever use that,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but if it’s, that’s an example of a feature that Twitter doesn’t have. And if I wanted something like that, I would go there. So it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Twitter is what I use every day all day. Tweetbot if I feel like I want to try something at a different client and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John finally following all the way back to the official client if there’s something that is only supported in the official client or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I want to see what it’s like in the official client or whatever. So I’ve always got Tweetbot installed but it’s on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like another page of icons. It’s not in a folder, it’s out of a folder. The official Twitter one is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in a folder. But yeah, I keep it around and I always buy it and upgrade it maybe it’s I’m wasting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my money on it. Buying an app that I’m gonna launch like five times for the next upgrade, but I like seeing what’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John happening in the Twitter client space. I spend a lot of time in Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yep, same here. Yeah, I mean, this is my most used app on the iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco no question, and on the Mac, it’s up there. On the Mac, maybe Mail and Safari

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco beat it, but otherwise, it’s my most used app, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} is really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sad, but the fact

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as you mentioned, it’s part of so many of our professional and social

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco lives. It’s all intertwined in there, and it’s very hard to get out of that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So I don’t know. I think Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is here to stay for a while for a lot of us, and if you’re going to be using Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one of these apps that’s not the official Twitter app is usually the right move. And Tweetbot is the one that fits me

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco best. As you mentioned, I’ve tried Twitterific. I can see why people like it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but it doesn’t fit me as well. yep i completely agree so yeah it’s you know this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is to me this is a great update and uh i’m happy with it all right

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week squarespace mail route and fracture and we will see you next

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco week

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin Cause

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him. Cause

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John oh

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So that’s Casey Liss

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M Anti-Marco Armin

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Syracuse, oh it’s accidental

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey They didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mean to Accidental Tech Podcasts So long

Post-show: Neutral

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You bought your Tesla yet?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I bought it with all the piece money and then had to return it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} Oh, that sucks.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Man, tough luck. I keep seeing a red one in town. Somebody in town has the red P85D

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and it looks really good. So I think I’m going to go red if I do it. I still, before I make a final decision, I still

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do want to do one more test drive. And I would like to test drive the non-P

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco version, just the 85 or 90D because that’s the one I would probably want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco get. I don’t think I want to go all the way to the P just because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco even though I did love driving it, it’s like 20 grand more mostly for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this insane mode that I actually found too fast and slightly unpleasant.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You have to try the ludicrous mode though. Maybe that goes, it wraps around. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} like shooting the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John moon, right? It wraps around and it becomes sublime, right? The 95D has ludicrous mode?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} No, 90

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco only, but yeah, it only goes to 90 right now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey What is the 90D? It’s not even shown on the website.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just a range boost on the 85. You pay like an extra three grand and you get, you get, it’s just a bigger

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} battery.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But that’s the one with ludicrous mode, right? Which is the step up from insane mode.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, like, well, you can get any of them in that capacity, but ludicrous mode requires it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But it doesn’t, I mean, I’m definitely not doing ludicrous mode. That’s, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You have to try it at least once. Like I said, it could wrap around. You don’t know. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So, I’m sorry, you said you, which one do you think you want? think you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco want? The one I probably would get would be the 90D. So it is, it is the one that is roughly as fast

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as the M5 and it is, you know, the longest range you can get in their lineup.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco The things about the P version, like the, it basically gets you like, you know, red

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco brake calipers, which look cool, but I don’t need them. And the option for a carbon fiber spoiler, which I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco think actually looks bad. So, you know, I don’t really need it. And for the dip for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that, like, I don’t, I wouldn’t feel good spending that much extra money on it if the 85 slash 90D is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco almost as good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I also like, you know, the fact is my car right now is faster than what I usually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can use with it. You know, I live in a neighborhood. I drive around residential streets most of the time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I can’t and really shouldn’t have a faster car than what I have now. I don’t even need a car that’s as fast as the one I have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco now. And I’m also, as I mentioned once before, I’m kind of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over having a loud car. I never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco liked my cars to be loud. I’ve been getting cars that are loud

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because I like the way they drive, and I like that they’re fast and sporty. But I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco always feel self-conscious with driving a very loud car on a residential street. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and it seems like, you know, the loudness of the M cars is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco completely artificial. Like, not even just with the radio in the car, but even the outside noise. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you can put any muffler on there that sounds like anything you want, and the only reason they make them loud is because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a lot of people want that, and it sounds fast. And so a lot of people who are buying fast

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} cars… That sounds so good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right. A lot of people who are buying fast cars want, they want, they demand

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that it be loud. But to me, it feels so…

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s just pandering. It feels so artificial. It almost feels insulting to my intelligence that they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco take this car and they just make it louder because they think I will require that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t know. So that doesn’t feel great to me. And as I’m getting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco older, and I have my kid now, and I’m around a lot of other people with kids,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and there’s kids all over the block and I’m driving this loud car down the street like I get a little self-conscious about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it so so I’m over having a loud car and if you look at BMWs lineup

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the only way to get a transmission that I would tolerate is either to have a loud

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco M car which by the way still there’s no all-wheel drive version unless you count the x5 slash 6

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ends which shouldn’t exist so so if you can’t only the real

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco M cars there is still and I know I know please everyone I know that the next

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco m5 generation is very likely to have all-wheel drive but that’s still a couple years out and it would still be very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco loud so you know that I’m I think I’m I think I’m out of the BMW

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco line unless I’m willing to go down back to the 3-series and get basically Casey’s car

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco which is a great car the one you have is a great car the 335, E92, E90 series, whatever it is.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That is a great car, however, I do like the size

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and the extra luxuries of the 5 Series. I would miss a lot of that. And also,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that car’s not incredibly quiet either, but it’s not as loud as the M cars. But also, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco don’t like the F30. I really don’t. TIFF’s is decent. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a very good all-arounder, but there’s certain things about it I don’t like, and I think the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco regular sedan version of it, it just, I don’t, I think it feels cheaper than

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the E90 series. And it doesn’t feel as good, I’m not crazy about it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco CMF in the chat pointing out the 550, the 550X would be the one I would want because I like all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the drive. The 550, the problem with that is it is not available in a transmission

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that I would tolerate. It is only auto. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco TIFF’s car has the sportiest auto BMW currently sells, although I haven’t tried, I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the new 7 Series has a slightly sportier one, but it’s like nine gears now or something, it’s crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So the sportiest one that is available that is still automatic, I drive

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that one all the time in TIFF’s car. And I drive it in automatic mode because manually shifting it sucks.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like it is no substitute for either a DCT or a real stick. It

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is no substitute. So I would require either a DCT or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a real stick or no gears whatsoever, which is what the electric cars give me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco A typical automatic transmission is just not an option for me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And by the way, on the noise front, if EddyQ or any other members of the Ferrari board are listening,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John disregard Marco, I still want to hear the sound of a flat plane crank V8. In my car. I’m not joking.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not just the volume. It’s like, you don’t like it it’s loud people do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like it to be loud but it’s also like the sound that it makes like I don’t think anybody wants the viper v10 to be louder because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it sounds weird because v10 sound weird but a ferrari v8 does not sound weird

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it sounds like beautiful music and so that’s that’s what people want not just the sound but a specific

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sound whether it’s a burbling v8 of like a mustang or something which is kind of what your car has which is kind of weird and unseemly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that it has the burble or the screaming whale of the flat plane

⏹️ ▶️ ^John v8

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s That’s what we Italians want.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco No like I and I like the sound my car makes I I really do like it when I’m you Know when I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco want that kind of thing, but that is almost none of the time that I’m driving it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And and actually I don’t like the sound of the new m3. I think the new m3 sounds terrible I’ve now heard them

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in person a few times and and I think they really Cranked up the sound of that v6

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco trying to get it to sound really impressive like the old v8 did and it just doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco uh it is i really i think i think it sounds the new m3 i think sounds like a cheap car that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco somebody put a cheap aftermarket pipe on to sound to sound faster

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah that’s the problem all the cars have including even ferrari because they added the turbos to the whatever the 488 or whatever the uh

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the new one is that like well that tends to muffle some of the sound and that sound that you want is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not and they ferrari has struggled mightily to try to get that sound back i wonder if

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like by the time we’re you know old and gray and grandparents that ferrari We’ll be selling

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a throwback model where it’s like a normally aspirated v8 with the old geometries and everything Just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because by then everything will be like electric or hybrid and it’ll be impossible to get that sound because it’ll be like tiny

⏹️ ▶️ ^John small Displacement turbo engines like they kind of are now in every other car Yeah, and it’s like it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, like well, they start sound like retro models This is not a modern car, but this is like it’s like a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John scale model or not a scale model reproduction So it’s got some modern things in it, but the powertrain

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is a complete throwback I don’t know if it would even be legal to sell those in the United States at that point, but…

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You could even have like this weird transmission where you need three legs in order to operate.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, like a big silver ball on a big

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey silver

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} stick.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Wouldn’t that be weird? God, that’d be crazy. To go back to the Tesla, I freaking love that the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Tesla page, or the Model S page on the Tesla website outlining battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey performance and drive options. All I see on this page is 5.5 seconds, 5.4 seconds, 5.2 seconds, 4.2

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey seconds, 3.1 seconds, or if you’d

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like to pony up for the Ludicrous Speed Upgrade, 2.8 seconds.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} Like this is how I would choose the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey car. It’s simply how fast would you like to go? Like how amazing is this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And by the way, the chat room was like, noting like that I made a Spaceballs joke.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I didn’t make a Spaceballs joke. Tesla made it. These are the actual names. mode and ludicrous

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mode are their brand names for these like software update packages or whatever like they are making spaceball

⏹️ ▶️ ^John references not me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, it’s it’s amazing. I would also like to go on record that I will be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey completely stunned and will buy you a coffee of your choice

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Marco as much as I hate to say this if you do not end up with the maximum

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey level Tesla available because that is the only way you know how to buy things.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} definitely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would not get ludicrous. It is still possible.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, you say that. Here’s how it would happen. If the seats that you find the most

⏹️ ▶️ ^John comfortable are only available in one ludicrous,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} you’re getting a car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} No. Oh, it’s so true. The

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco only… If I do get a Tesla, which is looking increasingly likely, but again, I still do want to drive one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco again before I make that decision. But if I do get a Tesla, it’s really to me between the 90D and the P90D.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I would not get the insane, crazy… the I would get insane but not ludicrous. These names

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, to me the P90D counts. I agree with you that ludicrous speed is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pretty much not going to happen. I will agree.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Right,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like if I bought a new M5, I would not get the competition package, which is like it’s a similar kind of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco price to gain ratio there,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because that is crazy and I don’t care. I don’t need it. The only reason I would go with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the P85 or P90D in this case would be if the 90 really just feels

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco anemic and I don’t think it does I think it’s I think the 85 slash 90 D is is really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very similar in performance to the m5

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey similar but if memory serves I don’t recall the m5 0 to 60 time off top of my head

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I believe it is something

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like 4.2 or something

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} see I think it’s a little quicker than that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey maybe 3.9 I don’t know you see that’s the thing the 85 D is listed at 4.2

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and I think you’re right I think the m5 is like just eking it in under four seconds. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I bet you that’ll be enough of a difference, as silly as it sounds, that that’s gonna push you to the P85D.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, because all he’ll feel is the instant torque from zero miles an hour. Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} he’ll feel the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} acceleration from zero to 20 and 30. Like I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John said, I think the only thing that will drive him to the big fancy miles is like trim level

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or option differences.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Right,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and there really aren’t, like you have to go to the P if you want the spoiler that I think looks

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bad in person. I don’t know what the deal is with these spoiler designs. So the problem

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is the Tesla Model S is a kind of like a fat bottomed car. It’s one of those like wide

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bottoms that a lot of large sedans have these days. Big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bottom, you’re making a style type reference and you don’t even know it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right, exactly. So whatever reference I’m making, it has like a wider bottom than like the passenger cabin

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco above it. So it kind of looks like a hovercraft almost, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s cushioned around the base. And the spoiler is not the full width of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the trunk. Because the full, like, it’s, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} almost looks like, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco looks like a mustache almost up

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there. Well, you can’t get the commercial skipping on the, the example. That’s all right, I feel too bad

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about it. They’re not gonna, they’re not gonna give that to you in a software update. They want you to get the whole new model.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John looks like I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can’t, I can’t get the red brake calipers, but I can get everything else.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Hugely, hugely important question. I want you to think about this and choose wisely.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Will you or will you not get the rear-facing seats? That is a very good question. I’m kind of not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey kidding because, oh my God, I remember having a wagon when we were kids that had the rear-facing seats, and it was terrible

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but also delightful.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m gonna say, I’m gonna give a thumbs down on those.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So we have some friends with a Tesla and they have the rear-facing seats. And it is really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco nice if you have to transport a whole bunch of kids around, but we don’t. And I’m probably gonna be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco getting on a three-year lease. And it’s like, within the next three years, am I gonna have three more

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco kids? Probably not.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And also, you’d only put the kids you don’t really care about back there, because that’s like the death seat in the case of a rear-end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John collision.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, the rumor, or the story behind it is that because Elon Musk has a bunch of kids,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco he made those like the safest seats in the whole car. It’s like extra roll cage around it and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} So- Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey there’s a five-point harness from the looks of it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, it is. And rear-facing is actually statistically safer. That’s why car

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco seats for infants are rear-faced for a while, basically as long as they can be. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the safety is not as much of a concern for me there. The bigger concern for me is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco first of all, that I just wouldn’t use them. Like I don’t think I need them. And also,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco some of the owners who have them say that the biggest problem back there is that there’s no HVAC stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco back there. So it gets really hot. Because they’re sitting under the rear windshield. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco there’s some vents that serve the back seats, the regular back seats, but they don’t reach all the way back there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So like if it’s like a hot sunny day, it’s gonna be pretty hot back there. It also is just kind of weird

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco when you have to load and unload your kid from your trunk. But regardless,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if I had a really big family, I would consider it. Although honestly, the Model X, I think would be a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco much better way to serve that because it’s actually a proper three row car. But this,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah, for my needs, you know, I have one kid I can foresee in the next three

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco years having at most two kids total. So, you know, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco really don’t think I would need more than that. So I’m not going to do the I would

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco not order that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I like the someone put in the chat room a YouTube video of P85D versus the Ferrari 458.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I just assume the Ferrari would lose because, you know, it’s an older model Ferrari and it’s a straight line

⏹️ ▶️ ^John test. Obviously, you’re not doing handling tests in this giant battery. But yeah, so the Tesla beats it off the line.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But you wait a couple of seconds. The Ferrari passes it and I feel better about it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I feel all right in the world again.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, no, I mean, and this, you know, I would definitely take this, like, you know, down a little, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sporty level. Like, I wouldn’t get the giant 21-inch wheels. You know, I’d just get the 19s,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco which are still big. You know, it’s just, yeah, I feel like I’ve had

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco my, my, like, really hardcore sports car, I guess, well, people would

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco question that, but I’ve had my, like, super sports car phase, and I think I’m moving past that now, into just,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco okay, I want things to still be nice and fast, but I also want it to be quiet.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I like how your super

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sports car was already an old man’s car, like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} M5, like the 5 Series, it’s already the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John grandpa car. Like, it wasn’t even the M3. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John did have your 1M, I understand, like that was kind of that phase. Yeah, I had that for like eight months. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} you went right to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the grandpa. It’s like, you know what? I need something with bench seats in the front.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, and I will also, so Twilling in the chat is asking, so you won’t miss shifting?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think I talked about this when I test drove the Tesla, but the big thing is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the reason I shift is not because I love shifting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so much. I enjoy it, it’s fun, but I don’t really need to shift. The reason I shift my cars

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco now, the reason I drove stick as long as I could and now I drive the DCT,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and why I don’t like automatics ever, is because I always know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what I want the car to be doing. I always know, and you guys know this because you drive stick, I always, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I know that if I’m going to, if I’m approaching something where I’m going to stop, I know I can, you know, downshift to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do that or whatever. I know what gear I want to be in at any given point and I know things that are automatic

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco transmission can’t know and I can, and so like I always want power to be accessible

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to me at any speed and I keep the gear such that I can do that, you know. So there’s,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco there are things that I really enjoy about being able to control the power delivery of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the car through shifting manually. And with the DCT,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the reason I don’t like, I don’t miss the clutch at all. The DCT is a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who haven’t driven them might assume that it’s like the, the like tiptronic manual

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco shifting mode of automatic transmissions. And it’s not, uh, it really is much more like a clutchless

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco stick. Like it is really, it behaves a lot more like a stick than it does. It

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco does not behave like an automatic that takes your suggestions sometimes. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it is great for me because I never cared about the clutch. I just cared about being sure I knew what gear

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I was in and selecting it and not having it second guess me and not having nine gears to pick from. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the electric, when I was driving the Tesla on that test drive, the reason I didn’t miss

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco having some kind of gear shift ability is because it was always

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with power available doing the right thing. It was always doing what I wanted. I never felt the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco need to manually control it because just the nature of electrics being basically gearless,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it was just, it removed the need for me to do any of that. So all the reasons why I shift

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco no longer applied and were no longer necessary. Now, I would probably still

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco miss it to a certain degree, just because it’s like this fun activity. You know, you kind of feel like you’re doing something manually, it’s kind of fun.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But while I was driving the Tesla, I didn’t miss it at all.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And that is something that I’ve never been able to say about an automatic, even the best automatics, even when trying to manually shift them, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco never been able to say that for an automatic.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I don’t drive DCT cars regularly. In fact,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to the best of my recollection, the last DCT car I drove was yours. And I do like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it as

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a two-pedal transmission can go, as a two-pedal transmission can go. But there is nothing quite like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey ripping off like a really great one-two up shift or like a three-two down shift while you’re turning

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey while you’re braking. There’s nothing quite like that. And I’m skeptical

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey my next car will have three pedals because I don’t know that whatever car I end up wanting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to buy will be available that way. But I’m gonna hold on to them as long as I possibly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey can and I’m going to I’m already rewing the day that I’m going to have to give that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey up. That’s so sad. You’ll survive.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I will, but I’ll be sad about it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You think you’ll be sad. I’ll be the saddest because I will. Casey, did you ever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have a non-stick car? Nope. All right. Well, anyway, both of us have never had a non-stick car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But when the time finally comes and you can’t get the car that you want, you’re going to get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an automated manual, essentially. I’m going to be stuck with an actual

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slush box, torque converter, automatic, or worse, a CVT.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} That’s what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m gonna be stuck with. And the range of cars that I buy, they’re not gonna have a really nice,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, snappy, automated manual. They’re going to have a slush box or a,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I won’t buy a CVT, I just won’t. Like, I’ll find a different car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Maybe that can finally push you to get, like, the car that you really want. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think Hondas do have that on several of their models. I just don’t look at those at all. But like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that is the worst but in everything like I bring my car in and they have like a loaner car for you to Drive or whatever. I just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John automatics like I can’t wait people live like this. I just can’t I can’t take it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That’s the worst like I drive Aaron’s car periodically and I really genuinely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like her car She has a couple generation old now Mazda 6 and it’s a very nice car,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but that transmission. Oh god It’s so terrible

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You just like you push the panel and you hear the engines like what what are you doing engine? And then you have to figure out, what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do I have to do with this pedal to make you understand that you are in the wrong gear right now? And then it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, all right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} It

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is the worst. It is the worst.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} It is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey absolutely the worst.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah. It automatics, it makes it feel like you’re just wasting this good engine. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like you have this perfectly good engine in there. If you just connect it directly to the wheels, it would work great. But you don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You have this maple syrup.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s just in the wrong gear too much of the time because it can’t read your mind and so the only thing it has like well I can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John look at all my sensors and all the pedal position I’ll try to figure out what you mean it’s like you

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know what I’m about to take this turn I should already be in second gear

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know what gear you’re in like it should or like I don’t want to have to do something with the controls of the car to convince

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you to go into second you should already be there and I would be if I was driving the car but I’m not especially in cars that have no

⏹️ ▶️ ^John power like the ones that I buy it’s really important to be in the right gear otherwise the thing just becomes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a slug and then like in the middle of the turn lurches into whatever next gear you’re supposed to be in it’s just a mess

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey yeah it’s god it’s rough

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and and I forget I forget what it’s like I think like well you know modern automatics are good and maybe they are like luxury

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cars and stuff like where it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco no they’re not I’m telling you they’re not like they are just as bad as well not just as bad but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco almost as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bad I mean they have like nine gears now on the fancy cars right

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah and that’s that’s one of the problems too like if you try to manually shift the automatics now

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like even the quote sport automatics. TIPS has eight

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco gears, the new 7 Series I believe has nine. And the reason that they do this for increased

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco fuel efficiency, and one of the ways they do this is by cramming a whole bunch of gears at the bottom of the range. So these aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all additional overdrives.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, they’re slicing up the entire range to give more granularity.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, and especially, so at the bottom, you have to shift around, where they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco put gear number eight on TIPS car is where I would’ve, it’s like between on a regular scale, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco between like two and three, which is a really frequently shifted range. And so not only is that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco annoying when you’re manually shifting it, but also when you’re just driving it, you do feel that. You feel that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco making more shifts, it’s making more transitions than you would have to in a manual. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco also to choose fuel efficiency numbers, it always, you know, it tries to jump as fast as it can to the higher

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco gears, and then when you step on it, nothing happens. And, you know, they all have these like, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, sport modes, And those are all equally terrible, just in different ways.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like they, it just never does what you want. And that’s why we will always drive

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco manual cars as long as we are able to, until it is no longer necessary. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so true. That, oh, we haven’t even talked about the Model X. That I think is a disaster. And like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t, I guess he really wanted those weird doors, but it’s like, no bad idea, guy. Like, if you’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do one with going doors, it should have been the first frivolous one that only rich people got. Not the second one that you’re hoping, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this is gonna be the mainstream one, because it’s like a stupid crossover SUV and it looks gross. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not going to be that cheap. And those doors are ridiculous and just no.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t think the doors are as much of a big deal in either direction as everyone else

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} does.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh yeah, you say that, but then you’re going to try to pop out quickly.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They are a big deal. Not because they’re bad, like you see all the videos of how they like sort of squinch together

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and try to make room, but because it is really hard to make a door like that reliably.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not like there’s like, we’ve been making this kind of a door for 75 years, you know, and we know how to make it really,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hell, it’s really hard to make a regular door reliably. Like just ask Tesla, all the, you know, learning the learning curve and just making

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a reliable, nice car. I think they’re finally kind of there with the Model S. But this, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John nobody has made good, reliable, problem-free, gull-wing doors, including Mercedes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like just ask anyone who has one of those cars. Sometimes the door comes unlatched while you’re driving and you just got like, it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, I guess maybe they did it better on the modern version, but the original gull-wing was a mess. Like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there for it to be a fanciful thrill, but if this is gonna be your mainstream car, like, you know that’s gonna be the main

⏹️ ▶️ ^John problem with these cars is stupid crap with the doors.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And plus you gotta wait an hour for the damn things to open.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, that part of it is not bad. And I think the design and saving space is not bad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s entirely because this is an exotic, weird design that’s going to have problems. And I know they spent a long time trying

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to make it reliable, but it’s their first try. It’s guaranteed that this will not be as problem-free as a regular car

⏹️ ▶️ ^John door, absolutely guaranteed.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey None of this is making it in the show, is it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} No.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh. We should put this on SoundCloud or whatever we used to do with ATPs before ATP was a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But the fact, we always think people care, but in reality nobody

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} cares. They don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah.