Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

120: One Magical Wire

Google Photos, Thunderbolt 3 over USB-C, WWDC predictions, and pears.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m back playtime is over.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we gonna get past follow-up tonight, sir?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t I have to talk to you about your drink before we start This is the pre-flight we were doing off the air

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey mark

⏹️ ▶️ John I wanted to know what your what your liquid situation was surrounding your computer and I remember

⏹️ ▶️ John hearing maybe on the podcast I wasn’t on you talking about your stupid cup thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John weevils wobble, but they don’t fall down technology is employed in yep And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you’re kind of missing the point. The point is not to get a cup If you if you knock it over on top

⏹️ ▶️ John of your computer Will hopefully through the design of the cup not have any liquid fall out or

⏹️ ▶️ John some magical cup that is Impossible to knock over that you could hit it with the oncoming freight train and this

⏹️ ▶️ John couple not tip over all of those things are Fixing the problem in the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John way You got it You have to accept the fact that the cup will tip over and spill water out even

⏹️ ▶️ John if you think you’re couple a won’t tip over B won’t spill liquid just accept that both of those things it’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like servers you know servers will fail hardware will fail just accept it and then build a system

⏹️ ▶️ John where when your cup falls over star stripping liquid explodes

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the liquid what was that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was not the cup don’t worry I’ll show you in a

⏹️ ▶️ John second all right that the liquid that does come out will fall down with gravity

⏹️ ▶️ John away from your computer which is up higher than it so this is the system I implore you to get

⏹️ ▶️ John going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on. So I’m going to, uh, I’m going to tweet at, at you too, cause I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make a public, a public, public tweet, um, a picture of my setup at mom and dad’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and let me show you something that will bake you even more excited

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over my setup, uh, here at mom and dad’s. So give me just a moment.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So is that what you mean, John? it up above the computer so it spills directly onto the computer that’s the idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the worst setup I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John ever seen I think. I like the fact that you have to reach across both your microphone and the computer to get to

⏹️ ▶️ John the cup. Yeah right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No I put that there just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco temporarily.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why don’t you maybe tie the microphone cable around the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey base of the cup.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh goodness. No I did that just temporarily just for you. Anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John my point is don’t put your faith in weird cups.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, I love that we kick John out of the show for one episode and he goes and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forms two new podcasts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, seriously.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Apparently it

⏹️ ▶️ John takes- I didn’t form two new podcasts. What are you talking about? Robot or not? Oh, that wasn’t when I was…

⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever. The timelines are all messed up. All these things happened way before last episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All I’m saying is, apparently it takes two podcasts, one with Merlin Mann

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and one with Jason Snell to equal the awesomeness that is ATP. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Reconcilable Differences is the other one. one that launched today on Relay, which is awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which actually, all snark aside, is unbelievably good. I am stunned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at how unbelievably—well, not really that surprised, actually, at all. But it is really, really, really good,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I absolutely love the first episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, me too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Both of them are interesting and exciting and are using innovative scheduling

⏹️ ▶️ John technologies to fit themselves into my schedule.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am genuinely surprised that you signed up for doing even one new podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey regularly, let alone two, although my understanding is you’ve kind of cheated the system with Robot or Not a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, no, all of this, like, A to B is the standard one. Every week we show up, we record, it goes out, you know, that’s what people

⏹️ ▶️ John expect. But the other ones are done in creative ways to fit into all

⏹️ ▶️ John of our schedules. We’re all busy people, but we want to do new and interesting things. And they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not podcasts about tech. So it gives me an outlet aside from the incomparable, which I continue to do,

⏹️ ▶️ John to talk about non-tech stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Excellent. All right. So we should probably do a little bit of follow up. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I might have skipped over a little bit that you might want to talk about, John. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco free to take it away. Well, now it’s probably too late, right? We don’t have to talk about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it is not too late.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Although you skipped

⏹️ ▶️ John over a bunch of stuff last time, and you guys were so busy like patting yourselves on the back for getting

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco through follow up all

⏹️ ▶️ John fast. But look at the timestamp when you end a follow-up. It was the same amount of time as usual. You just spent a lot of time

⏹️ ▶️ John complaining about follow-up and not doing follow-up until

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you said okay, now finally follow-up is over. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like you saved time. Anyway, all I wanted to do for all the various

⏹️ ▶️ John step tracker, GPS, phone, accuracy, watch accuracy things was

⏹️ ▶️ John to note the, we’ll put in this Linked Apple’s support article about this

⏹️ ▶️ John and note the interesting bit about tracking your distance when running

⏹️ ▶️ John with both a watch and a phone is that the reason it

⏹️ ▶️ John might be off is because it the devices apparently and hinted at by this Apple document

⏹️ ▶️ John are trying to save energy by not using the GPS all the time by trying to use the step tracker by trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John calibrate the step tracker either in the phone or in the watch or both and just use the accelerometer to count your steps

⏹️ ▶️ John rather than having the GPS going the whole time tracing your route. Because a lot of people are asking, how can, if you

⏹️ ▶️ John if you go with the watch and the phone, how can it be any worse or different in any way than a Garmin GPS

⏹️ ▶️ John watch? Wouldn’t it be exactly the same as in GPS GPS? What is the big difference here? And the difference appears to be

⏹️ ▶️ John from this Knowledge Base article and people’s experience, that the Apple devices

⏹️ ▶️ John are trying to cheat to save battery and say, well, once we get calibrated, stepping for

⏹️ ▶️ John the accelerometer and everything, we’ll use that most of the time and maybe check in on GPS periodically, which is another

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting trade off. And I think something that Apple will probably adjust with time as they get more battery

⏹️ ▶️ John strength and maybe if they want to be taken more seriously in the sort of a hardcore sports

⏹️ ▶️ John fitness market, those type of people like, look, just use my battery. The whole point of bringing you with me is because I want an exact

⏹️ ▶️ John route of where I ran.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Well, that was it after there’s like two pages of this in the

⏹️ ▶️ John show notes. I know, but it’s kind of old now. We had a bunch of people write in about it with links. we’ll put them in

⏹️ ▶️ John the show notes. There’s a couple of people tweeted about people’s upcoming reviews, like

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of hardcore fitness device reviewers, review of the Apple Watch

⏹️ ▶️ John and the iPhone. They’re not done yet, apparently, these people who do these reviews, but when they do

⏹️ ▶️ John come out, maybe it will finally pin down these devices to say just how accurate are they, what are their characteristics?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because all we’ve got now is a bunch of people saying, I did some exercise with some collection

⏹️ ▶️ John of Apple devices, I feel like it did or didn’t count my steps or heart rate

⏹️ ▶️ John or exertion correctly. And of course, because these people are in the same zone as Marco, where they’re a slave

⏹️ ▶️ John to the green rings, they demand that their green rings reflect their activity. And so they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John upset by it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh man, the green rings are getting harder to fill. Like now I had to walk for an hour today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get, I think, 25 minutes worth of credit on it. Oh, seriously? Yeah, because like, because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, part of it, you know, might be the way it’s measuring. A bigger part of it is that because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I keep filling it every day, I’m getting into better shape. And so I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is how things work. I don’t know. But I think my body is having to exert itself less

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do the same hills every day.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John MAX

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it scales it. It scales the amount. It starts you off with a small goal. You only have to do X amount of activity.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you keep meeting that goal, it’ll say, okay, now you’ve got to do X plus two, X plus three, X plus four.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I don’t think that’s, first of all, I don’t think it automatically adjusts. It prompts you to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco adjust.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I think it does automatically adjust. I remember reading that, but the people saying like that the

⏹️ ▶️ John activity that you have to do starts off very easy, so you feel like you’re achieving something, but if you repeatedly achieve it,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will push the goal farther out from you. And you’re also right about the heart rate stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah, first of all, I question whether that’s true, but the heart rate is 30

⏹️ ▶️ Marco minutes. Like, the goal is always 30 minutes. I don’t know what the threshold is considered to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an elevated heart rate? Is it 120? I have no idea. I’m estimating it’s something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco around 120, but I really don’t know. I can’t really tell.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the only other follow-up item I had was from the episode I wasn’t on where you were talking about the Johnny Ive

⏹️ ▶️ John promotion or whatever you want to call it, from his — what was his previous

⏹️ ▶️ John position? Chief?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Senior Vice President of Design, I think, or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. And now he’s collateralized debt obligation instead. Right. So

⏹️ ▶️ John his his new title, I think the various articles written about this covered all of

⏹️ ▶️ John the points. But as always, it’s like the mixture and you guys, when you talked about the mixture of what to

⏹️ ▶️ John emphasize, I mostly agree that this change in title

⏹️ ▶️ John is making up for the fact that he

⏹️ ▶️ John not that he wants to leave but that he he wants to do

⏹️ ▶️ John different things and that itch can turn into wanting to leave

⏹️ ▶️ John but it just seems like what I keep thinking of is if you are Johnny Ive and you’ve done all the things that he’s

⏹️ ▶️ John done what do you have left to prove in the making electronic devices space

⏹️ ▶️ John right maybe the car is like again if you’re thinking of what What would keep Johnny Ive around? What would keep him

⏹️ ▶️ John excited? Is he excited about laptops, desktops, airport

⏹️ ▶️ John things or whatever? Like maybe he still is excited, but I’m just going to say that he has nothing left to prove in those categories. Like if

⏹️ ▶️ John he never does designs another thing, he’s still going to be one of the most well-known designers

⏹️ ▶️ John of the century he lived in, right? And so if you don’t have anything left to prove, but you are an artistic

⏹️ ▶️ John person and you want new challenges, interesting things, that’s why I think the whole thing is like he’s going to participate in designing

⏹️ ▶️ John the stores. I bet I bet he really wants to do that because that’s slightly different than what he’s been doing before

⏹️ ▶️ John And if they’re doing a car I bet he’s super into that and I bet he was super into the watch because it’s a little bit different So

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think he’s like he was out the door and they had to do this to keep him around But I do see this as a move

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s he’s stepping towards the door slowly finding interesting things to pick up on his way to the door

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that’s fine and the other thing is talking about this position of like well

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re delegating to these people if if Alan Dye or whatever is doing the software and what’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John other guy’s name, Howarth or something? Richard Howarth? Yeah, and he’s gonna do the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s like, you’re just delegating everything and maybe you’re gonna be looking at the store. How can you be the design chief

⏹️ ▶️ John of anything if everyone else is doing the actual work?

⏹️ ▶️ John And almost all the discussions, except for good old Gruber who always, his article

⏹️ ▶️ John on this topic was one of those cases where he hit every single point. If I was writing a thing about

⏹️ ▶️ John this, I was reading his thing, I’m like, okay, yeah, but he’s gonna say this, yeah, okay, what about this point, yeah, okay, but he

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hit every single point

⏹️ ▶️ John I was gonna hit. It was like, just read that article, that is exactly my opinion. And the one point that I saw

⏹️ ▶️ John a few people hit, but he did was, CDO, who was the previous CDO?

⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Jobs, he didn’t do anything. All he did was oversee other people doing the things. How can you have

⏹️ ▶️ John any influence on design if you don’t design anything? That’s basically what Steve Jobs did. He didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John like run the company, his COO, Tim Cook did that, right? and the other people did all the actual work of

⏹️ ▶️ John making the hardware, making the software, doing different mockups. You know, he was the chief

⏹️ ▶️ John design officer. That was his main job. And everyone says, Oh, without Steve Jobs, I can’t. But then when Johnny

⏹️ ▶️ John Ive moves into essentially the exact same position that Steve Jobs had people like, Oh, God, he can’t have any influence. He’s out the door

⏹️ ▶️ John with Steve Jobs out the door because he didn’t do any of the work. Now granted, Johnny Ive has the ability to do

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of the work that Steve Jobs didn’t. But I think it is perfectly possible for Johnny Ive in his current position

⏹️ ▶️ John to exert the same amount, if not more control than he did before because he will have more

⏹️ ▶️ John authority and this is a higher level position even if it is a step towards the door. So

⏹️ ▶️ John and then like you guys said I don’t I don’t think it’s the end of the world if he leaves because I think at this point

⏹️ ▶️ John he should go do more interesting things and if he wants to design thermostats

⏹️ ▶️ John or airplanes more power to him. I think Apple is in good hands and it’s kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ John any car company that has a designer that sort of defines the signature look of the car company. Eventually, the car company

⏹️ ▶️ John wants a different look and just hope the next guy who comes in isn’t, you know, a Bangle or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I was gonna say Chris Bangle, though, everyone kind of wanted him out. And in this case, everyone wants

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Johnny to stay. So it’s it’s similar, but yet very different all at the same time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, like Bangle was a change from the old BMW look, which was very conservative. And so all the cars kind of look

⏹️ ▶️ John the same. And this was definitely you may not like the new look, but it was a change. The same thing with Mercedes, which are on the other

⏹️ ▶️ John direction, They used to look like kind of boring cars and then their new design direction was much more daring Seriously,

⏹️ ▶️ John you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think the new Mercedes is look daring?

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah much more dare Are you kidding go look at what they look like in the 80s and even in the early 90s and

⏹️ ▶️ John all of a sudden they got swoopy and Much more interesting looking designs. They don’t look the

⏹️ ▶️ John same And I like the new ones way better than the old ones. Yep But

⏹️ ▶️ John but anyway, like regardless of what your opinion any sort of brand identity or design has

⏹️ ▶️ John to go through some You can’t use the same design forever. We’ve talked about this in terms of

⏹️ ▶️ John material science, like aluminum and glass is probably going to last a really long time, but at a certain point,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe three design revisions from now, like three look revolutions, three decades,

⏹️ ▶️ John or three sets of 20 years, there’ll be a materials revolution. And actually now it’s not a

⏹️ ▶️ John question of how we shape aluminum and glass and whatever into different things, but it’s entirely different materials that have different properties.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Johnny Ive would be long gone by then. But anyway, I don’t see it as the end of the world if he leaves in a couple

⏹️ ▶️ John years.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Any other follow up?

⏹️ ▶️ John Jeff Williams is the Senior Vice President of Operations, not the COO, as previously stated on the program.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yep. My mistake.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Cool. What’s awesome these days, Marco?

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was started by two guys who wanted a better product without paying an arm and a leg. They make their own blades from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their own factory. This is actually an old blade factory that they bought in Germany. They liked it

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco crafted by shaving experts. The factory is like something like 90 years old. Harry’s is new, but the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco factory isn’t. They really know what they’re doing with these blades. This gives you a better shave that respects

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the price of what you’ll pay for a Gillette or something like that. They really are, if you compare,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re about half the price. I’ve used Harry’s blades a lot and I would say that they are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, very similar in shave quality to the Gillette Fusion, the 5-blade Gillette Fusion.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the Gillette Fusion costs about $4 each when you buy the razor packs in the store is about $4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco each. The Harry’s blades are about $2 each or less. If you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy a lot, they’re even less than $2 each. So they really are a fraction of the price. It’s really about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco half the price or less. An 8-pack is $15. A 16-pack is $25. Really, really good prices on these blades.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the experience of buying Harry’s is very different, too. When you buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the big brands in the drugstores, you’ve got to go to the anti-shoplifting case and call somebody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over to help you or take a card somewhere to go redeem it for your expensive razor blades and then you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end up paying, you know, your $35 and you get this little tiny box and it’s stupid. Harry’s is great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s modern. You order them online from a really nice website and they ship right to you. Shipping is free

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s fast. It’s great. I can’t say enough good things about the difference in experience

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco goes along with it to really soothe your skin, make it better, make it nicer for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They are for a starter set, $15, you get a razor, shave cream or gel, and three

⏹️ ▶️ Marco razor blades for just $15. That’s a really good deal. Even the packaging is really nice. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the designs of these handles and the blades and the packaging. It’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco modern, it’s tasteful. And we’ve heard—this came up in our discussion about appealing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more to women. And we talked about male-focused advertisers like Harry’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and whether that was a problem. And I actually had a call with Harry’s this week, and we talked about this. And they told me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some interesting things. First of all, that a pretty big portion of their customers are women.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we heard—when we talked about this on the show, we heard from lots of women in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our feedback saying that they use Harry’s too. So, while it is marketed to men

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So not to take a page out of Connected’s playbook, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey since we are also a photo management podcast, there’s been some news

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Google Photos is a thing. So Google had I-O, what was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, last week? Is that right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was the day after we recorded last week’s episode. Of course it was. That was well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey planned.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so they released Google photos, which from what I gather is what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone wanted from photo management, maybe. And so what it allows

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you to do is it allows you to upload all of your photos. You can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have an unlimited amount of storage, an unlimited amount of storage. If you allow Google to recompress

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your pictures, it’s very cheap. If you want to give them money to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey give, to store full res pictures. From everything I’ve heard I haven’t had a chance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to try this yet from everything I’ve heard It has unbelievable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey search capabilities so I think it might have been Russell Vanovich that had searched for sleeping

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that and there were a bunch of pictures of him and other people asleep

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Yeah, I’m sure it was him He searched for the Opera House in Sydney and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not only did it find pictures with the Opera House in Sydney in it it, but it found

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a picture of a picture of the Sydney Opera House,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I guess, I don’t know, in a lot of ways it makes sense, but it’s just that’s kind of crazy all at the same time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So it is supposed to be really, really good from everything I’ve gathered. Have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey either of you guys had a chance to try it? Marco, have you tried it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, the world of tech is a really big place, and there’s only so much you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can reasonably try and put real effort and spend real time with. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never have tried everything that comes out and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never will. I will never have time for that, nor is that really interesting to me. So I have not tried this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can comment on it as a person who uses Apple’s version of this, as a person who uses Apple’s version

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of most things, as a person who has a lot of photos. To me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all, I think it’s worth noting that this is basically the only thing anybody’s talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about from Google I.O. This was the big announcement, I think. I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth pointing out that Google is taking this year to mature things and do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some less interesting but necessary improvements everywhere, which is exactly what we’re hoping Apple will do,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Oh, absolutely. So that I think is interesting, and I hope

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple takes the same opportunity. But anyway, so Google Photos, I think it’s really interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the big things everyone seems to be talking about are what you said, are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the pricing, and the unlimited storage tier, with the asterisk of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recompressing and not supporting RAW, but the unlimited storage tier,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the really, really good intelligence of recognizing things and being able to search for things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Those are really nice, however, neither of those really appeal to me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve never done like keywording or much metadata entry for my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco photos. And that’s just, you know, some people do, some people don’t. I just don’t. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I browse things just by date and I find I find what I’m looking for that way very, very easily just by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco skimming the timeline view and everything in Apple stuff. So the thing about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being able to search for things like that’s it’s a very impressive technical achievement that solves a problem I don’t have.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then the unlimited storage thing with the asterisk is nice. A lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will use that. I don’t want that. I want, if I’m gonna invest time and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bandwidth and data and possibly money into a photo storage solution,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want it to store my originals. And that includes massive files and that includes raw files.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s only, like, you know, their limit right now is 16 megapixel, I I believe, and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using JPEG recompression to lower the rate even further. That to me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, I can see a lot of people will be just fine with that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my camera for the last, oh God, I don’t know, six, seven years has been a 5D Mark II,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s already, from six, seven years ago, granted it was a high-end camera back then, but that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already is 22 or 21 megapixels, that’s already past the limit.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Every camera on the market today that’s really good usually starts at 16

⏹️ ▶️ Marco megapixels. All the Micro Four Thirds cameras and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Fuji X system and the little Sonys that are not the Alpha 7

⏹️ ▶️ Marco full frame series, almost all of those are 16 megapixels starting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Many of them are now 24, some of them are even 36 now, and Canon just released

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a 50 megapixel camera. So if you’re buying nice cameras,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then you will be classified as a quote pro and all these consumer level solutions are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to either limit you or not appeal to you and they seem to not care. They seem to be okay to give

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you up. Unfortunately, I kind of fall on that side of that line just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by a little bit. So I fall on the pro line just enough to want fancy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco editing controls like what Lightroom gives me and just enough to have a nice enough camera where I want to shoot 24

⏹️ ▶️ Marco megapixel images, but not so far that I want to abandon these systems completely and give up all the cool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sync stuff that they offer.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have two minds on this sort of asterisk recompression thing. On the one side

⏹️ ▶️ John you say, boy, this is actually kind of dangerous because a lot of people ask when this came out, oh hey, can I use Google

⏹️ ▶️ John Photos to back up my photos? And the answer is if you’re using the free thing, no, because you’re not really

⏹️ ▶️ John getting a backup. What you’re getting is a place where you can see your pictures, but it is changing them, recompressing

⏹️ ▶️ John them so it’s not really a backup. But on the other hand by making it free and unlimited

⏹️ ▶️ John it is way more attractive to people who would otherwise do nothing to organize their photos

⏹️ ▶️ John and therefore it does serve as hey it’s a hell of a lot better than nothing kind of backup for the people

⏹️ ▶️ John who previously just left all their pictures on their phone for instance right like all just all their pictures are on their Android phone

⏹️ ▶️ John and then they drop their phone in a lake and they’re like oh yeah where are my pictures right this is a great solution

⏹️ ▶️ John for those people because even though it recompresses the fact that it’s free and unlimited, they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John care about the asterisk and it’s way better than what they were doing before, which is probably nothing. So I think this

⏹️ ▶️ John probably hits the sweet spot of Google’s target user, which is the mass market and not people

⏹️ ▶️ John who have fancy cameras, basically people who take pictures with their phones and phones aren’t yet 16 megapixels. They

⏹️ ▶️ John will be in a few years, but I think it is the right solution

⏹️ ▶️ John for their audience. And it also has the added benefit of making Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John pricing look terrible because even though it’s not apples to apples, nobody knows or cares about that. If you were to explain to somebody, no, you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t get it. Google recompresses their image. And you try to explain what that means. And they say, Okay, show me the pictures. They’re like, oh, they look the same

⏹️ ▶️ John to me. And realistically, they do like, we’re not going to be zooming way in on someone’s eyeball on a 16 megapixel image

⏹️ ▶️ John to show them see how Google recompresses it and it looks like a mess. They’re like, yeah, but I looked at them like this. And they look fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John They look the same. So I think this is the right compromise, even though it was disappointing

⏹️ ▶️ John when I learned free and unlimited that asterisk was there for me personally, But for everybody else,

⏹️ ▶️ John definitely a good deal.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Real quick, real time follow up. The Galaxy S6 is 16 megapixel.

⏹️ ▶️ John There you go, we’re already there. Oh, that’s right, the Nokia whatever had the super high megapixel

⏹️ ▶️ John camera a couple years ago. So we’re probably a couple years into that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s also, I think we might be about to have a big megapixel spike because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a couple of cameras in the market, and I think one or two phones that even do this, So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, we’ve seen over the last few years how many of cameras and many smaller

⏹️ ▶️ Marco phones, including the iPhone 6 Plus, has optical image stabilization. And they do this by sensor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shift. They basically have accelerometers and they shift the sensor around really, really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quickly and adjust for camera shake and motion. Well, somebody figured out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recently that you can use sensor shift to basically interpolate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a super high-resolution picture from multiple captures. So what they do is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in very quick succession, when you hit the shutter button in this special mode, some of these cameras can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basically use the image stabilizer system to shift the sensor very slightly in different directions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over the course of a few seconds to kind of interpolate a higher megapixel mode. That can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make a 16-megapixel sensor take a 50-megapixel image. could get,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially in the spec-obsessed, hyper-competitive, camera-obsessed smartphone market,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would not surprise me at all if this becomes a very, very common

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feature among smartphone cameras. And even though the optics will still be kind of crappy, and even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though the sensors will still be kind of crappy with really tiny pixels, this will be a way for many phones and many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cameras to claim ridiculous megapixel counts. And there is additional resolution to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had there. It isn’t as good as if you actually had a giant sensor that big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in most cases, but it’s better than not doing this at all. So. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think people will use that for digital zoom because I see people do that all the time. They don’t understand the quality

⏹️ ▶️ John loss inherent in digital zoom. But if you have 50 megapixel, because it’s not, you know, why do you need 50 megapixels? Unless you’re printing

⏹️ ▶️ John out something poster size or you’re going to print it super high dp. Like no one’s gonna do that. They just want

⏹️ ▶️ John pictures that are like human size that are on their mantle. you know, eight megapixels is fine for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John 16 megapixels is fine. So if you have 50, what does that buy you? That buys you the ability to pinch while you’re taking the picture,

⏹️ ▶️ John to zoom in and out instead of like walking closer or farther away, and still get a 10 megapixel image

⏹️ ▶️ John out of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Now I think the key piece to me is what you had said, Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little while ago, that I really, I personally love the idea of having this really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey robust search engine on my pictures. I’m not really interested in weighing the pros

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and cons of giving my pictures to Google, but the problem I have with it is if I’m gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get into this position where I have all of my pictures on Google Photos, I’m going to want that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to also serve as a backup in addition to being a really robust search engine. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know I’ve talked about PictureLife quite a lot on and off over the last few months, but I really love PictureLife for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a bunch of reasons, including them having a good search engine,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly around dates or locations, nothing as advanced as what Google Photos is doing, but also

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because they’ll take every file as it sits on the computer, including raw files.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And granted, you have to pay for it. And I think I pay 15 bucks a month for a limited storage.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, I might be quoting that wrong. But it serves not only

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a nice repository, it does the time hop style thing where it says, oh, this day,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one year ago, two years ago, three years ago, this is what you were doing. But it also allows me to search for pictures very easily.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It allows me access to all of my pictures while I’m on the go. Um, it does a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of the stuff that Google photos and actually, um, photos app and iCloud photos, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iCloud photo library, whatever it should and intends to do. But man,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would absolutely pay for and switch to Google photos. If,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if, if I was confident, if, if I felt like it got me things that picture life didn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and right now it’s, it’s getting me a search engine, but it’s not getting me, I don’t think, a lot of the other stuff that I really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey love, like the time hop. It’ll get you like

⏹️ ▶️ John better face recognition and it does some weird AI thing where it composes a nice picture for you and makes albums

⏹️ ▶️ John based on good stuff. But anyway, you can get this, you can pay. You can pay Google, you know, it just goes to your Google account

⏹️ ▶️ John storage. If you pay for a terabyte of storage, then it will back up whatever the hell you want. Like, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the other thing that’s a shame about the asterisk, is people might dismiss it then, the nerdy people listening say, oh, well I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want it to recompress my images. That’s just for the free one. If you pay Google money, you can store whatever the

⏹️ ▶️ John heck you want because they charge you for the amount of storage you use. And the rates for storage are not, they’re not cheap,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re cheaper than Apple still. Yeah, it’s about half the price. Yeah, and as many of the competitors

⏹️ ▶️ John are, as we went over last time. Apple is still a little bit out of whack in

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Same as Dropbox, right? 10 bucks a month for a terabyte?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s Dropbox, right? I don’t remember their pricing, but Dropbox is still below Apple for the big,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially for the big tier. Yeah. And I have to tell you, I’m tempted by this Google thing

⏹️ ▶️ John because the features it has and more importantly the performance characteristics that I assume it has based

⏹️ ▶️ John on all my experience with server side stuff that it’s like look it doesn’t matter how fast my computer is

⏹️ ▶️ John because most of the magic is happening on the server side it’s sort of like why I use Gmail. I have a ton of

⏹️ ▶️ John email ton of filters all I ever see on my screen is one set of email things

⏹️ ▶️ John so it doesn’t matter that this label or folder or whatever has 60,000 emails in it,

⏹️ ▶️ John I can switch to it and immediately see what’s there because it just shows one screenful. And I can, I don’t mind

⏹️ ▶️ John clicking next to go to the next screenful as opposed to clicking something in Outlook and watching it grind and beachball my thing

⏹️ ▶️ John so it can display a scrolling list view with 60,000 email messages, right? This is the advantage

⏹️ ▶️ John of server side versus client side. The disadvantage is you don’t get a nice scroll bar to do it, but the advantage is everything is always

⏹️ ▶️ John responsive. So I would imagine that Google Photos, like Google Search,

⏹️ ▶️ John would let me find all the pictures of a particular person with its face recognition, which I have to assume is superior

⏹️ ▶️ John to Apple’s, even if just in that it doesn’t grind my computer to death when it’s detecting faces, it

⏹️ ▶️ John grinds Google’s computers to death when it’s detecting faces. And same for all the other stuff where you can just type in receipt and it’ll find all

⏹️ ▶️ John your receipts. You can type in Sydney Opera House, you can type in statue, you can type in grass, like whatever, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, they have lots of smarts behind this that are not going to be duplicated in a local computer.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like Google’s giant computing cluster and the fact that they share all the information about image detection and that it makes the

⏹️ ▶️ John whole system smarter and all that. All of these are features I like and their rates are cheaper than Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John and they were saved the uncompressed stuff. But for photos, I’m going to give Apple’s photos

⏹️ ▶️ John app, despite it being super slow and everything, a little bit more time to mature because this is the one point. Oh, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John basically a complete rewrite. So far, it has been reliable, if

⏹️ ▶️ John only incredibly slow and maddening. And there’s one update

⏹️ ▶️ John on my Apple photos complaints. there’s one new behavior that’s really pissing me off. In addition

⏹️ ▶️ John to being super slow, when I’m going through pictures of like hit the right arrow, the left arrow, add a keyword,

⏹️ ▶️ John hit the period key to favorite, I’m trying to come up with like a nice keyboard only workflow for sort of going through my pictures.

⏹️ ▶️ John After I take them to organize them and tag them. Frequently, I’ll come upon one that I want to delete because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John crappy. And I’m not doing like the one star thing anymore. I just delete now because I have just have fav and non fav. So if I see something is one

⏹️ ▶️ John star, just delete immediately. Delete, of course takes forever. fine, take forever, sit there

⏹️ ▶️ John for sometimes I count 1234. Oh, there it went.

⏹️ ▶️ John I deleted right. And then the next picture comes up. And then I you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll hit the hit the arrow key or hit delete, I’ll hit the arrow key. And then I’ll see the next picture I want to delete. And I’ll hit

⏹️ ▶️ John delete. And I’ll look up at the screen. And I’ll see what has happened is after I

⏹️ ▶️ John went to the next picture, I deleted one and then I went to the next picture. Now like

⏹️ ▶️ John my delete, like iCloud has caught up with my delete and it has moved sort of my cursor from the picture

⏹️ ▶️ John I was looking at to the one that was before the one I deleted so then whatever key I hit like favoriting

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever applies to the picture before the one I just deleted instead of the next one like like it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John preserve my position my you know my selection state in the thing because the collection view like reshuffles

⏹️ ▶️ John behind the scenes and I will find myself looking at a picture I wasn’t looking at before maddening like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a potential for if if someone was not paying enough attention

⏹️ ▶️ John they might not realize what happened. They might not realize that you thought you were on the next picture but really after you hit

⏹️ ▶️ John next picture it said no no no no here you are on the picture before you were deleted and you might not realize that you tagged that

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong or deleted it or something else and if it happened to do that delete fast enough when you were looking down like

⏹️ ▶️ John I can imagine that being a data loss bug waiting to happen. It’s stuff like that in addition to being super slow it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John this is so slow and laggy that it is it is breaking the model of the UI UI like

⏹️ ▶️ John so it’s like outlook 2011 all over again where the selection state is changing underneath my

⏹️ ▶️ John my cursor so I’m really not liking the experience with photos other than the fact

⏹️ ▶️ John that it is accepting all of my uploads and presumably preserving them and they’re all

⏹️ ▶️ John in a cloud and blah blah blah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well and to me like that’s that I think is the most important part like if you have an Android phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you use Google stuff then by all means use Google’s photo thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes the most sense. My most frequently used camera is my iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the fact is that nothing integrates better with my most frequently used camera

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than Apple’s photo storage thing. And so I like Apple’s photo storage thing would have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be really bad for me to not use it and to instead go over to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something else because the convenience aspect is really incredibly powerful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of just having And having integration, having things like just instantly be over on my big computer or on different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, let’s not say instantly because one of the complaints, like performance eventually becomes a feature deficit. One of the

⏹️ ▶️ John complaints for people with large libraries is you take a photo with your iPhone and then you,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, maybe a couple seconds pass and then you want to see that photo in your photos collection

⏹️ ▶️ John and you go to photos and it’s not there yet. And why isn’t it there yet? You just took it. Why is it not there yet?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because you have a giant collection and it takes a while to, I don’t know what the hell it’s doing like you I don’t think it’s going anywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John you took it on the phone surely it should show up in your photos collection but there’s a lag if you have large photo

⏹️ ▶️ John collection and that’s a lag that wasn’t there before like this is one of my wife’s complaints you turned on this iPhoto library

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever thing because the photos are in her computer and because Apple doesn’t understand how families work the photos have to be in one computer

⏹️ ▶️ John and blah blah blah we’ve complained about this before so she gets to have them on her phone and all it has done

⏹️ ▶️ John is made her camera on her phone less pleasant and made her photo pickers in every single app way

⏹️ ▶️ John slower. And so again, 1.0, hopefully this will be addressed. This is a perfect thing for them to do an

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS nine, which we’ll talk about when we get to WWDC predictions. So I’m going to give the apple one a chance, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have many hangups about Google photos, especially the ones where I’m paying for the storage. Cause I

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like that is a, I understand the relationship there. I give you money, you store my photos, I store

⏹️ ▶️ John more photos, I give you more money. And I love all the features they have for all their searching

⏹️ ▶️ John and face detection and organization and all that good stuff. So. Apple better get its

⏹️ ▶️ John act together.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. In a lot of ways, I feel like this is Google at its best because it’s leveraging all of its machine learning, all of its

⏹️ ▶️ Casey humongous server farms and whatnot, in order to get something that’s really very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey impressive and really awesome to use as a consumer. So I’m curious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to see where this goes, but, um, I’ll probably be checking it out at some point or another. With that said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what else is awesome? Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So our second sponsor this week is our friends, the nicest people in the world really, our friends

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, they’re the best.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Aren’t they? They’re such nice guys, really. I mean, genuinely nice people, and they make really cool stuff. So

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the kind of stuff they make. They also have a new app, before I get into their stuff, they have a new app for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhone called Highball. It’s a free app and it’s really almost as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a companion to their cocktail products. When you download the app, you can tap the plus button on the home

⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen, then add from library, and then you can actually find special cocktail recipes inspired

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the three ATP hosts. So really cool guys. They listen to our shows, you know, cool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inside jokes. So check out their iPhone app, Highball. Now, their regular products, I love

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this stuff. I have a lot of their stuff. They have the Glyph, which is an iPhone tripod mount

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and kind of like a built-in mini tripod. Really great. Very, very handy. It came out a while ago. They’ve updated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it a couple times since then. And The new one is adjustable, so it can work with multiple phone generations,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most likely. They also have the Cosmonaut, which is an iPad stylus or iPhone stylus,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I’ve tried a bunch of the various styli that exist for the touchscreens. The Cosmonaut is by far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my favorite one. It is so, so good. Now their cocktail products are really interesting, too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have the Neat Ice Kit, and this is what we were talking about a lot last time I sponsored, I believe. The Neat

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ice Kit lets you create crystal clear ice at home. And this is another

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of those things, I’ve tried a couple of other things that attempt to make clear ice, various Kickstarter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco projects and stuff, and none of them have been as nicely working and as easy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use as the Neat Ice Kit, which I also have, and it’s so much better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s easy, it’s friendly, you know, the Neat Ice Kit is very, very simple. All you do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, they have this cylinder of water that you put in the freezer,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then it gives you this solid rectangle of ice. And one half of it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is cloudy, and one half of it is clear. And so you take the included chisel to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just cut it down the middle, basically, and then you have a perfectly clear ice cube that you can then cut

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and shape however you want, or just leave it as one giant cube. It is really, it is so easy to use.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They also have the Simple Syrup Kit. Now this is something, I make simple syrup all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the time. I make simple syrup in the summer mostly for my iced coffee recipe, which I’ll link to somewhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Simple syrup, you would think that making it without, you know, making it yourself without a custom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kit, it’s, you know, pretty straightforward. You combine water and sugar and mix it up and put it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a bottle somehow. So you would think your product like this wouldn’t be necessary. I cannot tell you how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good this is. I was smiling the whole time I was using it because it’s like, yeah, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make simple syrup without this, but there are parts of it that are annoying. There are parts of it that are kind of hard,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of tricky to get right. And once you make it, you still have to have some kind of container

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to put it in and pour it out of. And really, like, they nailed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Like, every part of the Simple Syrup Kit, they completely nailed it. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco process of making it is simple. They have this little jar that’s labeled perfectly for the ratios.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You really don’t have to measure anything. You just pour it in until it goes to the line. You can swish it around with no utensils

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needed. The pour spout that they have on this bottle is perfect. It doesn’t dribble,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t leak, you can shake it and nothing comes out. They thought of everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The bottle is exactly the right size to fit on any fridge shelf. They took

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every part of this process and they made it way better, so much so that I will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never make Simple Syrup again without using their product. It’s just so good. This also makes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a great gift. Holidays, wedding gifts, graduation, Father’s Day, whatever you want, this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great. So check out Studio Neat. These are such cool things. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just cool products made by cool people. I think I’ve tried most of their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco products now, or even all of their products now, and they’re all great. Like I can’t point

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to anything they’ve made that’s been a dud. Check it out, really. Great stuff, reasonably priced,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great gifts for Father’s Day, graduations, birthdays,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s studio slash ATP and use coupon code ATP for 10% off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything in their store. Thanks a lot once again to studio neat for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let me just pile on for two seconds. One, love the neat ice kit used all the time. Two,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you should check out the stop motion video they did for the simple syrup kit. It’s just very, very well done and very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey clever. And they had a blog post about it at some point or another about how they did it. And that’s also very interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you should check that out. In other news, so apparently we know what Thunderbolt 3

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is and it looks just like USB-C.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not just like USB-C. There’s an

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey important

⏹️ ▶️ John difference that we’ll get to in a bit, but yes, if you didn’t think it was confusing enough,

⏹️ ▶️ John now we have two different things that use the same connector. It’s kind of like we finally got rid of the USB

⏹️ ▶️ John Type A connector where it’s symmetrical on the outside but asymmetrical on the inside, so have to try three times to get it plugged

⏹️ ▶️ John in the right way. Finally, you know, we talked about the USB type-c connector. That’s gone! It goes in either way. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John perfect. No more cabling problems. We’ve now swapped that for plug in this adapter, plug

⏹️ ▶️ John it into the display. Does it not work? Oh, that must be the Thunderbolt one. It doesn’t work with MacBook one. Try the other one. Plug that

⏹️ ▶️ John one. You have to try two different things to plug in. Doesn’t matter which way you plug it in, but you have no idea if the

⏹️ ▶️ John one you’re using is the right one for your device. This will be a transitional period too, but it is a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John frustrating that Apple actually shipped machines with USB C connectors

⏹️ ▶️ John that are not Thunderbolt 3 and so they’ll forever be this weird not forever but until they till they go away

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll be this weird machine that has a connector that’s not a Thunderbolt connector but it looks like all the other machines

⏹️ ▶️ John that have a Thunderbolt connector

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah it is a little bit weird

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah it does seem like kind of a kind of weird timing to have released the MacBook one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because if you look here’s it’s a brand new computer this brand new line there was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there was not like massive pressure for them to release the MacBook one when they did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know and and it seems like six months away from when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Skylake will be out most likely from when Thunderbolt 3 which will come with Skylake

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in all likelihood

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that will be available so it seems like they released the MacBook one like six months too early.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah they should have just made a retina MacBook Air as we talked about that before and like oh I would have liked that machine better blah

⏹️ ▶️ John blah but now forget about who would like what machine Better just in terms of product line planning and succession and like transition

⏹️ ▶️ John between ports It would have been better overall for everybody now knowing what we now know about

⏹️ ▶️ John sky like availability and Thunderbolt 3 to have made Retina

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Airs like in the exact form there and now same connectors same everything same battery Just put a retina screen

⏹️ ▶️ John on it put the lower power chips, right? Cuz that would be it would be a bore more boring machine

⏹️ ▶️ John But then you’d have a clean transition from these were the old world laptops and then here are the new ones and they all

⏹️ ▶️ John have Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C connectors and it’s all uniform. This is this machine

⏹️ ▶️ John this MacBook one is looking more and more like this weird sort of transitional

⏹️ ▶️ John platypus thing that is you know and and like and

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t you can’t tell the future it’s like oh they should have known exactly what Intel’s availability be it’s like that the

⏹️ ▶️ John schedule has slipped when all these things were planned many months or years ago

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t exactly predict the future so it’s kind of a shame we’ll get over it but uh yeah that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what happens when when schedules slip you end up doing strange things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and apparently this supports um 4k displays two of them in fact is that right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah it’s it’s enough bandwidth to support two 4ks at 60 hertz which if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you do enough tricks that is also enough bandwidth to support a single 5k display over one cable.

⏹️ ▶️ John And but the weird thing is they keep saying it’s DisplayPort 1.2 not 1.3 and I don’t remember the

⏹️ ▶️ John limitations of the spec but I mean does that does that all fit together? A single 5k display

⏹️ ▶️ John over a display I guess it’s it’s ganging two DisplayPort 1.2 connections over the single cable

⏹️ ▶️ John right like technically speaking that’s what it’s doing you don’t have to have two wires connected anymore but under the covers

⏹️ ▶️ John do you imagine that it is basically two DisplayPort 1.2 channels?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s certainly how the little information we have about it, that’s how it reads to me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s what it’s doing, that it is doing dual DisplayPort 1.2s because it can do 4K at 60

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hertz using DisplayPort 1.2, it can do two of those. So that certainly does seem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that’s what it’s doing.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is essentially what everyone’s been talking about since the 80s or the 70s even, like

⏹️ ▶️ John someday there will be one interconnect to rule everything. I was some of the early hype about firewire if you

⏹️ ▶️ John can believe it Those of us who are around back before firewire was actually a thing It was like I know you got

⏹️ ▶️ John all these connections in the back of your Mac But this one bus is gonna do everything forget about USB.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just from icing keyboards this firewire thing because it’s like peer-to-peer and daisy chainable

⏹️ ▶️ John and doesn’t require the Then then much weaker CPUs to do

⏹️ ▶️ John work to get data along It’s the best of all possible worlds and it’s serial instead of parallel and the connectors are small and they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John easy to plug and unplug plug and you know it didn’t quite work out for firewire but the slow consolidation

⏹️ ▶️ John of all the differently shaped holes in the sides of our computers into a single kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John port there’s only one kind of hole and we could have multiple ones of them and it’s uniform and they can do everything

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what we’re finally finally getting to and I think it was an incredibly wise smart

⏹️ ▶️ John forward-looking perhaps necessary move for Thunderbolt to

⏹️ ▶️ John to do both of the things that it did the first thing it did was we’re not gonna make a new connector for Thunderbolt

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re gonna piggyback on many display port because by the way we support display so it was like you can connect your drives

⏹️ ▶️ John but also your display and also kind of your docking station or whatever it’s kind of like a parasite

⏹️ ▶️ John or one of those little not lamprey not eel but

⏹️ ▶️ John the actual word for the little sucker fishy thing that stick on the side of sharks we’re gonna we’re gonna hit you ride on us on an

⏹️ ▶️ John already existing successful port and so they hitched a ride a mini display port because in that time Thunderbolt

⏹️ ▶️ John was presenting itself as a cool bus to connect your high-speed stuff but also

⏹️ ▶️ John your display and in fact both at once and now it has found a much more attractive host. Forget about

⏹️ ▶️ John mini DisplayPort there’s USB-C it’s delicious it’s an awesome connector we love it we’re super jealous of

⏹️ ▶️ John that symmetrical connector it’s smaller it’s going to be everywhere we get on that train

⏹️ ▶️ John then finally we can legitimately have computers that just have one or more,

⏹️ ▶️ John hopefully more, on the Pro machines. USB-C type connector that literally does

⏹️ ▶️ John everything that the computer can do

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco with

⏹️ ▶️ John a series of adapters and all sorts of other stuff. So that’s still a little bit annoying but it

⏹️ ▶️ John is the the future that we expected. The only difference is it is not one magical bus. Instead

⏹️ ▶️ John it is one magical wire over which we shove all the existing old stuff. So DisplayPort is

⏹️ ▶️ John still going over there and you’ve got USB going over it and you’ve also got what you know the the PCI

⏹️ ▶️ John Express lanes for your graphics card or whatever other stuff you have externally so it’s it’s one cable

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s lots of different protocols and sort of channels and buses all going over that one cable which

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess is better than nothing it’s still not quite the uniform world where we imagine everything would be speaking one protocol

⏹️ ▶️ John and it all be jumping on this one big beautiful bus that just powers everything but maybe we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John get there someday

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there and it is definitely an improvement over what we have today, which is, you know, Thunderbolt, first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all, I think you agree, I’ve never liked the mini-display port as a port,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a physical port, as a cable end.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s better than SCSI.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that’s not a very high bar.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say it’s also better than USB Type-A, because it is smaller and externally asymmetrical.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, maybe, but it also doesn’t feel like it’s very securely inserted most of the time. It feels

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it can slide out partially very, very easily. Whereas USB has always gripped in there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I can’t tell if that’s like, because I have, you know, there are some USB type

⏹️ ▶️ John A things that feel very secure and some that feel loose or get looser over time. So it’s hard to tell if

⏹️ ▶️ John that is a construction thing or it’s the fault of the port itself. I believe it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John possible to have a secure feeling Thunderbolt port, just like I know that it’s possible to have a secure feeling USB

⏹️ ▶️ John type A port and also a really loose one that feels crappy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, maybe, but regardless, I’ve never felt a Thunderbolt port that felt really secure to me. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the kind of stuff you’re plugging in there, usually it’s stuff like advanced drive arrays

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or like a network adapter for the laptop or something. It’s things where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you really don’t want it to just randomly fall out as you’re using it. Like that would be inconvenient

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or cause problems. So it is, that is, that always kind of makes me feel a little weird about it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB-C really locks in place. USB-C is a very secure feeling connector.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It does not at all have that problem, as far as I could tell from my brief time with one. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, I think, is a massive improvement. You know, also now we have the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 5K issue fairly solved, it looks like. So that also helps.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Again, I think though you’re right that the problem is now the complexity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of, well, this thing can be plugged into this USB-C port, but not that USB-C

⏹️ ▶️ Marco port, and there’s no visual way to identify which is which, and you’re gonna have- Is it a

⏹️ ▶️ John USB-C port? What is the, how would you even call the port now? Because, is

⏹️ ▶️ John it the Thunderbolt 3 port? Do you call it by the name of the highest speed bus that can run over a wire that you connect into

⏹️ ▶️ John that port? It’s weird. Like, when the presumed Skylake

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Pros come out with ports whose connector is the shape of the USB

⏹️ ▶️ John type C connector? Will all those ports be called Thunderbolt ports? Will we call them all USB

⏹️ ▶️ John ports? Will we call them anything different when two

⏹️ ▶️ John DisplayPort 1.2 things change to two DisplayPort 1.3s and you can have four 4K displays

⏹️ ▶️ John and so on on some future machine? Is it still a Thunderbolt 3 port or is it a Thunderbolt 3.1 port? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John names become meaningless. It is just a wire over which we multiplex all sorts of signals.

⏹️ ▶️ John The standards and protocols of those signals advance over time and the maximum throughput

⏹️ ▶️ John of the wire itself advances over time, but we just keep calling them, maybe we’ll just call them ports.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe our grandkids will just be like, how many ports does your computer have and how fast do those

⏹️ ▶️ John ports go? And it becomes less important to have a name for it. I don’t even know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it’s going to make it very difficult for everybody, especially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco non-super-informed geeks like we hope we are. you know it’s gonna be a big problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for everybody where like okay I have a computer that has this port on it I want to buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this peripheral or I want to I want to you know I I’m out of ports I want to buy a hub to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco give me more ports and then half your devices stop working because it’s a USB C hub and half your devices are Thunderbolt like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you do and you have no way to know that really ahead of time like it things right now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can you can look at the ports that you have and you can look at devices and cables and peripherals and hubs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you And you just know, oh, this is this shape port. I have two of those on my computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can plug that into that and it will probably work.

⏹️ ▶️ John Use your skills learned on a shape sorter when you were a toddler.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, like in this new world where we have this, we have one port that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is most likely going to be very common. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already tons of cables and hubs and devices on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the market for USB-C now. There’s already tons of them. And all those hubs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that exist now, that everyone’s buying now with their MacBook Ones, they’re gonna, in two years, they’re still gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have that. They’re gonna have a different laptop maybe, and it’s not gonna work with half their stuff. Like, it’s gonna be a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird situation that I’m not sure is a good thing overall.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, as people in the chat room are pointing out, and as Intel has been pushing with the

⏹️ ▶️ John technologies that it’s trying to attach to Skylake or make part of the same sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of push for new products, we talked about in past shows, the whole idea of wireless connectivity, which,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, maybe isn’t here yet. Maybe isn’t up to snuff for Apple standards yet,

⏹️ ▶️ John but going to a uniform connector everywhere with different protocols,

⏹️ ▶️ John but over it as an improvement over the status quo. And eventually you would imagine that the things that can be wireless

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of high speed, high bandwidth, near field, low power wireless.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can we get that to the point where the ports just stop being used for

⏹️ ▶️ John anything except for maybe power? You know sort of the the zero port

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that we talked about with it with the MacBook one That’s not I don’t think that far

⏹️ ▶️ John in the future in the order of you know the good old five to ten years thing so

⏹️ ▶️ John I Think this is a step up from where we were we’ll just deal with the confusion and

⏹️ ▶️ John what comes out on the other side of it is not a final unification on a single protocol on a single wire but rather the

⏹️ ▶️ John slow deterioration of the wire as an important thing that you plug into your devices

⏹️ ▶️ John for anything other than charging. I mean we’re already there with iOS devices. We’ve just convinced the entire world you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t plug anything into this thing except for a cable to charge it. Everything else you do with

⏹️ ▶️ John it you do wirelessly. Even though that’s not technically true, you can plug all sorts of things into it. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John people like the idea of the wireless stuff, even as flaky and unreliable as it is now. New

⏹️ ▶️ John versions of Bluetooth, new, you know, near fields for the Apple pay stuff, uh, future

⏹️ ▶️ John protocols that do similar things for displaying, you know, doing, doing air,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, what is it? Air display? What the hell is that called? Airplay. Airplay. Doing airplay over different protocols.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ll keep calling it airplay, but whatever the weird, you know, wireless, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John high definition display standard that Intel comes up with several years from now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Building that in instead of doing it the way Apple does it now with h.264 compression over regular old Wi-Fi

⏹️ ▶️ John like That I think is the the long-term end state of this, but in the meantime

⏹️ ▶️ John I am very excited about a future line of computers period not just laptops, but I’m excited

⏹️ ▶️ John about a new Trashcan Mac Pro with a bunch of Thunderbolt 3

⏹️ ▶️ John ports on the back Whatever the hell you want to call it like just the back of this machine will just be bristling with little tiny USB 3

⏹️ ▶️ John shaped holes even more than there are Thunderbolt ports and it’ll have more capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ John and it will be less of a hassle to plug things into it. This is the final

⏹️ ▶️ John point on Thunderbolt 3. They’ve finally seen the light on another thing which

⏹️ ▶️ John is the stupid Thunderbolt cables that cost 50 bucks because they have chips in the connectors and it makes the connectors really long and like

⏹️ ▶️ John one inch one inch long stiff part that can’t bend because that’s where the chip is and they and actually get warm when you use them.

⏹️ ▶️ John They have a standard for passive wires. It only goes half the speed, 20 gigabits instead of 40,

⏹️ ▶️ John although that half speed, that’s the maximum speed of a current Thunderbolt 2, isn’t it? 20? I’ll take that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, so basically for the current speed that you have now, you can get cheap,

⏹️ ▶️ John flexible wires that don’t heat up when you use them with no chips in them, and you get 20

⏹️ ▶️ John gigabits. And so that’s great. This is the fastest turnaround time I’ve ever seen on

⏹️ ▶️ John a interconnect standard learning from all the mistakes the previous iteration of this interconnect standard made. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John first of all, Thunderbolt’s already up to version three and it’s like barely used and only used on Apple computers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it is already like correcting all of its past mistakes. Better connector, piggybacking on USB,

⏹️ ▶️ John a passive thing for people who don’t care, while still pushing the envelope of like, actually

⏹️ ▶️ John we have double that speed if you’re gonna use the chip connector things or whatever. So I’m really excited

⏹️ ▶️ John about next year’s crop of Macs, one of which I may actually buy if my 2008 Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John lasts that long.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, I wonder, because they’re attaching Thunderbolt to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB, and we know that Apple is very unlikely, extremely unlikely,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to ship a computer where, like, you know, these ports are USB 3, but these ports are USB 2.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, they’re just gonna go all out on one or the other. Thunderbolt requires direct PCI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lanes right from the chipset and it’s most likely, I would imagine, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know offhand, but I would imagine it’s much more expensive to have a Thunderbolt port on a motherboard, on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a computer than a USB port. It might not be possible to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more than two USB-C ports on anything but a Mac Pro, just because of the chipset limitations.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So like, you know, look at the iMacs today. iMacs have four USB ports in the back. Are they gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have four USB-C ports on the next version? I kind of doubt it because I kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would doubt that whatever chipsets Intel uses for the consumer level stuff, they might not support that many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lanes for Thunderbolt to use.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they listed the chipsets like they were going to make one super low power one. This is a lot of people writing in to explain the

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook one, although it doesn’t really make sense because the Mac one doesn’t use Thunderbolt three. But anyway, they’re going to have one low

⏹️ ▶️ John power chipset. They can only support one of these ports, right? That’s the whole idea is like we’re only going to support

⏹️ ▶️ John one, but it is a true Thunderbolt three port that does everything on, you know, it’s for the MacBook one class of machine

⏹️ ▶️ John And it really only does support one. So yeah, you could have a second one that like you said, is, well, this one isn’t Thunderbolt. I know it looks the

⏹️ ▶️ John same, but this one is actually just plain old USB. They didn’t have, with the current

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook one, they didn’t have that problem. You could have made them both identical, but with the new one with Thunderbolt 3, you can have one Thunderbolt 3

⏹️ ▶️ John port with this chipset, because that’s all we have the lanes for. And then you can have other like plain USB ports, which

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple may or may not do. But then the next step up, with the sort of better laptop things, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it was like, now you can have two Thunderbolt 3 ports.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you know if that will qualify for the MacBook Air the MacBook what?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like do we think that is machine is still gonna be a thing not without a retina screen I don’t see that living

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t see a 26 new iteration of the MacBook Air coming in 2016 unless they put a retina screen in it and I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Not

⏹️ ▶️ John entirely convinced they’re gonna do that yet But but yeah, and so they you’re right They will

⏹️ ▶️ John be faced with this problem, especially for the iMac because the iMac you don’t have the excuse of like well Because the iMac you could just basically

⏹️ ▶️ John put an internal hub inside there and have one of the Thunderbolt 3 things branching out

⏹️ ▶️ John into basically an internal USB hub and then you have one I mean They’re still faced with the same problem You’re gonna have a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of connectors that are all shaped the same one of which has a little different symbol painted on it and Tiny paint that no one can actually read because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John behind the computer and nobody could see back there because it’s dark Right, but if you swivel it towards you it’ll light up.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh god. Yeah, well not on the Mac Pro the iMac, right? They have plenty of room inside

⏹️ ▶️ John the iMac to have five ports on the back of it. One of them is going to be like the good port, like

⏹️ ▶️ John the Thunderbolt port, and all the rest of them are going to be, these are just plain old USB. And they can do that with a

⏹️ ▶️ John quote-unquote two-port chipset from Intel, right? Or just like I said, they could have

⏹️ ▶️ John two Thunderbolt 3 ports and then five USB ports, not that Apple would ever do this because they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John so stingy with ports, but then five USB ports just running off of like a plain old USB 3 control. Like, technologically this is

⏹️ ▶️ John all possible. all it comes down to is the confusion factor. And on the back of the iMac,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think if you separated them, even though they’re the same shape, if you separated them from each other, like if you had a bunch in a row

⏹️ ▶️ John and then a big space and the other ones, or even put them on separate sides of the machine, I don’t know. I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John if I had to make the choice, I would rather have more ports, even if some of them are only differentiated by a stenciled

⏹️ ▶️ John symbol, like laser etched onto the aluminum. That’s what I would want. But I’m not entirely

⏹️ ▶️ John sure that that’s what Apple’s going to do. I would imagine Apple is going to put a smaller number of ports on

⏹️ ▶️ John it and just, you know, deal with the short-term griping.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, I mean if you want a lot of ports of various mixing and matching of things you’re definitely looking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the wrong brand of computers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the Mac Pro, you know, they’ll do use whatever crazy chipset that has the most insane

⏹️ ▶️ John number of PCI Express lanes and they’ll put as many ports on the back of that thing as they can and

⏹️ ▶️ John that’ll just continue in its current form but the shape and size of the ports in the back will shrink who knows maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John they could even add ports to that thing on the Mac Pro that’s the only model I can actually imagine them saying these

⏹️ ▶️ John are all Thunderbolt 3 ports blank space these two are plain old USB-C connect your mouse and

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard here because why the hell not like they’re all so tiny there’s so much stuff inside

⏹️ ▶️ John that computer it wouldn’t be a big deal to do that and it would free up like the good ports

⏹️ ▶️ John for your crazy multi SSD disk arrays or whatever the hell you’re connecting to it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you still won’t buy one

⏹️ ▶️ John I might, you know, I’ve got to buy a new computer eventually in theory. On an infinite time scale.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh God. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John That one terabyte SSD really did give this Mac new life. I do not, when I sit down in front of this computer

⏹️ ▶️ John now, the only thing I notice is that, you know, my wife’s screen is better than mine. But other than that, it feels great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I suspect you’re going to keep using it until it drops OS support for the latest OS.

⏹️ ▶️ John That would probably do it. I’m kind of glad that I’m just in under the wire for the few updates

⏹️ ▶️ John and they haven’t been advancing that. The last few OSs have all not changed the hardware requirements.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They cut off Merlin’s old Mac Pro and then just stopped cutting off old Mac Pros. That’s right. That was the last

⏹️ ▶️ John one in the door and then it’s like, that’s it. Everything else is 64-bit Intel, you’re good to go.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Excellent. So, is anything going on next week?

⏹️ ▶️ John From the late breaking rumors, it seems like a lot less is going on than we thought.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You want to tell us what you’re talking about there, John?

⏹️ ▶️ John I have all this list of, this is the WOC prediction section, and I have this list of the hardware and software and things we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to talk about, and the late breaking story from the New York Times is what seems like the final

⏹️ ▶️ John in a series of stories about the ever rumored Apple TV replacement that was like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, it has a new remote. It’s coming. It’s going to have an SDK. Apple is working with companies

⏹️ ▶️ John to provide a way for you to watch first run shows by paying the money like the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV dream is going to come true for everyone except for Gene Munster, because it’s not an actual television set.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then the final one posted in The New York Times shortly before recording began was, oh, looks

⏹️ ▶️ John like Apple TV. The new Apple TV is not going to be a WDC after all. This follows on the previous story, which was like,

⏹️ ▶️ John hmm, looks like Apple having trouble setting up all those content deals that it wants to set up. And then we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, well, even without the content deals, they can release new hardware. It was still the new remote

⏹️ ▶️ John might be cool, and they can always release the hardware now. And then later on, when they finally get all these deals ironed

⏹️ ▶️ John out with all these content owners, then they would just your hardware that you have would get better. But if this

⏹️ ▶️ John rumor is to be believed, no new Apple TV hardware, no Apple TV SDK

⏹️ ▶️ John off the menu for WWDC again. And it seems like the past three years that the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV has been like, I don’t know, they could, the current one is really old. And well, like this one was like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John they did a price drop on the old one. That means a new one is coming and we were all ready for it and no. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John I obviously entirely pessimistically believe these rumors that there will be no Apple TV. I hope

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m wrong and I’m really excited and pleasantly surprised because my current Apple TV is flaking out big time. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve switched to using TiVo for Netflix. That’s how far it’s gone. So yeah, what do you guys

⏹️ ▶️ John think about that? Are you basically crossing off the Apple TV in your hearts?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I had already kind of done that because at the recommendation of Dan Morin,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I think we talked about this on the show, I got an Amazon Fire TV stick and I love it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is the first thing I turn to to do any sort of media consumption

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I’m trying to do that at home or when I’m traveling, if I choose to take it with me. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has been far more reliable than my Apple TV has been. It works

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really well. Netflix is great on it. Uh, Plex actually exists on it, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is wonderful. And that works really well. Um, so I rarely use my Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore, but the only thing I use it for is for airplay, um, like we were talking about earlier,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and even then in a pinch, I can do that using a really hacky

⏹️ ▶️ Casey third-party app on the fire TV stick. So. I would love to see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a new Apple TV and see what they’re going to do with it. But I don’t know, I went from loving

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my Apple TV to kind of not really caring about it in the span of about a year. Now maybe this is all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Discovery D issues masquerading, or you know, this is Discovery D issues causing me to hate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, and it’s really not the Apple TV at all. But one way or another, I just haven’t really cared

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about the Apple TV in a while. Now Marco, you had just posted something recently about yours not working for the eight millionth

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time. Is that right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, it’s hilarious that now we are all gene-munstering Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now everyone’s like, oh, when are you gonna do the Apple TV? Like, it’s a slight variation, but it’s pretty much the same thing. Second of all,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s hilarious that the A5 just won’t die. Like, it’s an, the A5, how,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this chip that was released in 2011 is now still in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the non-retina iPad mini, which is still for sale, the current generation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of iPod Touch, which is still for sale, The current generation of the Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is now also still for sale, the A5, and we don’t even know what the watch is, maybe the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch is using an A5, this chip will not die, and developers keep having to support

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it forever. But anyway, and I think that’s probably, honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why there’s no Apple TV. I think the A5 became sentient, and took

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over at Apple, and has some dirt on Tim or something, and is just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco holding the company hostages now. That’s why there’s no new Apple TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of all the things that are wrong with the current Apple TV puck, the

⏹️ ▶️ John incredibly weak CPU is actually, I think, not one of them, because it’s obviously strong enough to handle full

⏹️ ▶️ John resolution HD video, which is basically what’s expected of a puck-like device at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ John And everything we complain about is bugs. It’s not like, oh, everything is slow because

⏹️ ▶️ John the CPU is slow. The responsiveness is okay as far as set-top boxes go

⏹️ ▶️ John when things work. And so, you know, we desperately do need a new puck. And the reason,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like when you say, oh, we’re gene-monstering Tim Cook on this because he keeps saying, where is the Apple TV?

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s not us doing that. It’s Tim Cook and Apple speaking with the corporate voice saying, we still believe

⏹️ ▶️ John in TV, we’re interested in TV. Like, they’re not just like not saying anything and then it’s just left us to figure out

⏹️ ▶️ John that the iPod Touch isn’t coming back or whatever. Like, they keep talking about TV and like how they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John still pursuing that. and they think there’s a, it’s a venue for possible future

⏹️ ▶️ John disruption and advancement and whatever that like, they keep talking about it. So if you keep talking about it and you drop the price in your system,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, so what are you talking about? Are you talking about the stupid $79 puck that we all hate now because it’s buggy and old and

⏹️ ▶️ John slow and getting worse with time instead of better and messing up our networks because of discovery D or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John They have to do something. They’re sending mixed messages here. And one of the messages we really care about

⏹️ ▶️ John television and we’re interested in the future television And the other message is what they’re actually doing, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John just keeping the same product around way past its prime, and the only thing they’ve done is drop the price.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think it’s very clear that they are, there’s so much smoke around this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They are definitely working on some kind of major update to it, but it’s just not done yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s very clear. And whether this was like a last minute slip, or whether everyone was mispredicting the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch before, I mean. Or

⏹️ ▶️ John it could come out. Like, yeah, this is just a rumor, but it seems like we’re all writing it off. It seems like we’re saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John we believe the New York Times story, now we are completely prepared for there to be no Apple TV.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it has everything about a controlled leak written all over it. Like, this sure looks like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple PR, this is a controlled leak, no question. So, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe that it’s been kicked out of, you know, whether it was there or not in the first place. We don’t know whether this is setting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expectations based on new information or just tamping down, you know, rumors that have gotten

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of hand and would disappoint people, who knows, doesn’t matter. The fact is, I believe that, I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these things to say it’s not going to be there. Anyway, there’s nothing saying that they have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to release this at WWDC. Like the, the, everyone always assumes that Apple has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to release new platforms at WWDC that that will have SDKs so that developers can get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco started on them. And that’s simply not the case. Look at the watch. The watch was an entirely new platform that has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now many apps for it. The watch has not seen AWBDC yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s about to, but you know, the entire WatchKit SDK was launched last November

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with no event and, well, with the watch event, but like, you know, no developer event,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no developer gatherings of any sort, because the fact is AWBDC holds about 5,000

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people and there’s hundreds of thousands of Apple developers. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they can never satisfy everybody at these events. So they have to do things online, they have to have these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different systems and everything. So they can launch an Apple TV with an SDK whenever they want.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They don’t have to do it next week. So if something has slipped where it’s not quite ideal timing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for PR reasons, they’re gonna want to ship this device along with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really compelling customer story, a really compelling reason why people want to buy it besides,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hey, we made a different box, you know, it runs the same crappy software that you’re used to.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you always need that reason though? Because I, you know, they release new Mac hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John without a new OS or any new capabilities. Like this is what happens if you, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you neglect your products and just say, well, the Apple TV I have is fine. Like there’s something to be said for,

⏹️ ▶️ John yes, just coming out with the new box with a faster CPU and GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John with, you know, lower power, less heat, smaller size, like just basic

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware advancement. I’m not saying you got to do that every year for the Apple TV because it’s not maybe an every year kind of product, but

⏹️ ▶️ John every once in a while, that type of change, you can’t you can’t put that off forever. You can’t, I understand that like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, we want to have content deals, we want to have a new remote, we want to have an SDK, like there’s all these things that we see for

⏹️ ▶️ John the future of our little baby Apple TV. But if those things keep getting delayed for whatever reason,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s fine. But in the meantime, it’s okay just to do a hardware update. And they did when they bumped it to

⏹️ ▶️ John 1080p. But then they just said that’s it. We’re like, it’s like now they’re being stubborn. We’re not going to

⏹️ ▶️ John touch anything until we have everything to show you. Especially if this rumor is true that like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the content deals were falling through it. And I can imagine someone going, well, why Why would we bother releasing that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like our headline feature like the SDK fine whatever but our headline feature is hey now you can be

⏹️ ▶️ John a cord cutter and you can actually use this to watch like quote unquote real TV and it seems like they’re saving it a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot to say you know imagine if they did it with the watch imagine if they said you know what we are not launching this without pulse

⏹️ ▶️ John ox right and the FDA thing is holding it up fine we’re just not going to go we’ll delay it for another year

⏹️ ▶️ John they didn’t do that with the watch because it’s seen as a much more important product and there was no existing one and

⏹️ ▶️ John at this point the Apple TV is so long in the tooth that I just wish they would, you know, they don’t have to pull a MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John One and release something that might be weird and awkward and they really they replace it but like release the hardware that

⏹️ ▶️ John you know will work for your future software plans and at this point that hardware must exist

⏹️ ▶️ John and if the software is not ready for it like they should have if they had a contingency plan like let’s just let ship the

⏹️ ▶️ John new hardware with the old software and yeah now it’ll have a Showtime thing that you can pay $11 a month and get Showtime just like you

⏹️ ▶️ John can with HBO go HBO now or whatever That’s still an OK product. Keep

⏹️ ▶️ John selling the $79 one. Sell this one for sell. How sell this one for one forty nine or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe you don’t sell a lot of them, but eventually you’ll have a selling proposition where you can say, oh, if you have the new Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can get all these amazing features and these new content deals and whatever. I don’t know. I’m getting I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ John getting frustrated with the Apple TV, both my specific hardware product that I’m slowly using less and less.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the fact that Apple won’t put out a new one. And the reason for that, and this gets into a question I have for Casey, is

⏹️ ▶️ John I have a lot of stuff that I bought on iTunes. Why do I buy them on iTunes? I guess because it’s really easy. I just go

⏹️ ▶️ John and press the button and the kids are watching a movie. But now, you know, we all know this. The best

⏹️ ▶️ John of us know it, but we still do it anyway. Didn’t you know you were buying things you could only watch on Apple devices? Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John I knew, but I always assumed there would be some passable Apple device that I could use to watch it. So now, why do I go to

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple TV? Because the kids want to watch a movie that we have purchased from iTunes. So Casey, do you have a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of iTunes purchases? I guess not if you’re abandoning it entirely for the Amazon thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have a fair bit of iTunes music purchases, but those were already abandoned in favor of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Spotify. I know for some people that works, for some people that doesn’t, but that’s what I’ve done.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know that I’ve ever purchased a movie on iTunes. I do have a couple of ultraviolet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey movies, so I’ve gotten the Blu-ray, and that comes with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a digital copy, and you can typically redeemed that in one of several proprietary systems,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’ve redeemed that copy within iTunes. But generally speaking, if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m buying a movie or if I want a movie for my birthday or something,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey generally speaking, what I’ll do is I’ll ask for it on Blu-ray, and then I will rip it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and stick it on my NAS using Don Melton’s scripts in order to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it so that it’s accessible without the disk. So if I were to sit down and watch a movie,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just like Aaron and I, for example, I would put in the Blu-ray if I have it available, which I know makes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me weird in a lot of ways.

⏹️ ▶️ John As your bouncing baby boy gets bigger, I can imagine you will find yourself in a similar situation to most parents,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is kids want to watch a movie. You’re sure as hell not going to order a DVD, get it, rip it to plex and

⏹️ ▶️ John have them show it, watch it later. You’re going to, you’re going to pull up whatever you need to pull up to buy the movie now

⏹️ ▶️ John and start watching it. And maybe for you, that will be your Amazon, whatever, a fire TV stick. that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, you know, that that your impulse purchases of movies that you’re not interested enough in to watch

⏹️ ▶️ John on Blu-ray, but that you want your kid to see and want to be always available, you’ll buy them on the stick rather than buying

⏹️ ▶️ John them on the Apple TV. But for us, we’ve already bought a ton of them on Apple TV. And I imagine Marco

⏹️ ▶️ John has to like, you know, kids movies.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. The vast majority of movies that we own through iTunes are Pixar movies.

⏹️ ▶️ John Those are important enough to me that I get the fancy Blu-rays for. But I’m just talking about like other random stuff or even movies

⏹️ ▶️ John for myself. Like, I don’t know, like a Marvel movie that I’m not that into but I want to

⏹️ ▶️ John see it I’ll just go and buy it on iTunes and I’ve even done iTunes rentals which I thought I would never do because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re so expensive look if you think the movie is important enough to rent like and I have Netflix like why are you renting a movie from

⏹️ ▶️ John iTunes it’s just we’re so incredibly lazy that you don’t want to wait for a disc to

⏹️ ▶️ John arrive and if it’s not available on streaming you’re just gonna you know what let me just rent it on iTunes it’s $3.99

⏹️ ▶️ John for two people to watch a movie it’s way cheaper than going to the movies it’s fine and then at this point We’re never just buying

⏹️ ▶️ John them because if you rent it you rent it once and then the kids want to see it because it’s a family Movie then you rented twice you

⏹️ ▶️ John just bought it Anyway, so I don’t know Anyway, the point is all of my movies are trapped in the iTunes ecosystem So I

⏹️ ▶️ John desperately want Apple to at least maintain some sort of competence and update their hardware So I can continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to watch the movies that I paid for because unlike music they haven’t gone DRM free So I can’t sort of take

⏹️ ▶️ John them out of their cage and put them someplace else

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well to put in perspective Just a few days ago. I decided to buy the movie sneakers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the early 90s and It did not even cross my mind to look on iTunes I immediately went to Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey found a blu-ray and shipped it to myself. That was the first thing I did I didn’t even consider doing anything else.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you should get sneakers on blu-ray because that’s an important movie.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ John agree

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John wonderful movie that Margo hasn’t seen or probably ever heard of. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve heard of it I don’t know if I’ve seen her I might have seen it like back when it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Back when it was current I might have seen it It’s a great great movie.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Have you seen War Games, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. You’re not completely without hope then, says Potta Kettle.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, most of the movies I haven’t seen came out like after 2002. Well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this was 92 so you don’t really have any excuses. Right,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly. Yeah, 90s I have I have covered pretty well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, good deal. What else do we think is happening at WWDC? What are we getting on the watch?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we getting complicated third-party complications? I say no way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There have There have been a couple of rumors that said yes. I don’t know. I mean, right now, I made my big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco post last week about, I have so many questions about the Apple Watch Native SDK.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We know that we’re getting it. That’s been confirmed. So we know that we are getting the Native Watch SDK. We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know how limited it will be, what it will and won’t be able to do, what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will and won’t be allowed to do by policy. There are so many questions on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. All we can say is we’re getting a native SDK.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no idea, from my point of view, whether an overcast app will be possible, whether it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will not suck, whether it’s possible to make one that doesn’t suck. I have no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea. So I’m looking forward to it. It’s very impressive. To me, it sounds like very aggressive timing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have this already so soon after the launch of the watch. But hey, if they can do it, great.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is it kind of weird that they pre-announced the SDK? Like I mean, I’m trying to think of why bother

⏹️ ▶️ John pre-announcing it. Like we all kind of expected it was coming, but why not just save the surprise? Like is it so pressing that

⏹️ ▶️ John there was pressure on them to have to say no seriously it’s coming because they told us it was coming. They said like this

⏹️ ▶️ John is what you have now, you have watch, get native SDK in the future. They could have just said and that

⏹️ ▶️ John could have been the last you heard from it. And then we all would have assumed it’s at WWDC. It would have been at WWDC. Would it have

⏹️ ▶️ John been slightly more exciting for them not to have confirmed shortly before WTC Oh, by the

⏹️ ▶️ John way, remember when we said we’ll have the SDK in the future? Well, the future is WWDC. That’s exactly when you’re going to see it. Why bother spoiling

⏹️ ▶️ John that minor surprise?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It Yeah, sure. But you know, like maybe maybe when they decided to say that publicly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is what about a week ago, when they decided, maybe that’s also when they decided the Apple TV wasn’t going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make the cut, or maybe they I hope they knew by then whether the Apple TV wasn’t going to make the cut.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so maybe that was maybe this is kind of a two stage PR management move where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re trying to like give people good news first so then the bad news doesn’t sting as badly I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that’s just a guess

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it matters one way or the other it’s just it’s like a difference of you know it used to be that Apple would keep every possible

⏹️ ▶️ John secret could even when everybody knew like it’s so obvious they were gonna do something they wouldn’t say anything okay

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean and speaking of obvious iOS 9 and then a new version of OS 10 everyone I guess assumes

⏹️ ▶️ John that there are updates will exist. Apple is hasn’t announced how maybe they probably

⏹️ ▶️ John have like come see what’s new in the next version of iOS. And that’s probably in the WC later for summer. I didn’t even bother

⏹️ ▶️ John looking, but that’s kind of an assumption based on their yearly schedules. They won’t tell you what they’re going to be called

⏹️ ▶️ John their names. There’s still a little bit of surprise there. But I assume we all agree that those two things

⏹️ ▶️ John do we think either one of those things are going off a yearly schedule or do we just assume there will be new major versions of both of

⏹️ ▶️ John those.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They’ll be there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. All right. So now what’s in them? What let’s start with iOS nine. What is what is

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS? What characterizes iOS nine?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a tough thing. I don’t, I don’t know of any low hanging

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fruit that I really, really, really want to see changed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey For the life of me, I can’t think of anything that that irks me on a regular basis. And a lot of people have been calling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for, you know, taking watch style complications and putting them on the lock

⏹️ ▶️ Casey screen or or even potentially putting them in springboard and I don’t know, maybe that’s one of those things that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey once it arrives, I’ll be like, Oh yes, I can’t imagine not having this anymore, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t really feel like I want any of that stuff. And so to me,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just feel like I want everything to be a little less buggy and a little more reliable. And I don’t know if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean iOS specifically, I don’t know if I mean iCloud since I’ve been burned by that over the last few days,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I would just love to see a slowed down release. And I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what we’re going to get. I think we’re going to get less whiz-bang features than we do,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey generally speaking, but we’ll still get a handful. But I think that there will be a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey public, admission isn’t the word I’m looking for, but a public statement that this is about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tuning things up and cleaning things out. I don’t know. What do you think, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m mostly with you. I do think that there’s a lot of stuff they could do to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco improve things user-facing that wouldn’t be totally out of the blue.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Last year they introduced this amazing extension system. There are still a few places where extensions could be useful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and welcome. So possibly new extension points, possibly enhancement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to existing extension points, things that you can extend from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and you know some some small seeming but very helpful things such as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps being able to launch specific extensions from specific people that would be nice or one of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big ones mail app supporting extensions that would be nice because it’s kind of weird

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and really annoying that it doesn’t so if the Apple mail app could launch extensions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would be amazing so there’s stuff like that there’s a lot of enhancements of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things we already have generally, but they can make them better or they can expand them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Lots of that stuff is what I’m looking for, what I’m hoping for, in addition to the refinement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you just look at what we’re seeing over the last few days with the 10.10.4 beta replacing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco DiscoveryD with the old MDNS responder,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco based on what I’ve read and the research I’ve done what everyone else has been saying, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think that replacing DiscoveryD with the old, reliable MD&S Responder

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is going to solve more than half of the issues I face every day with Apple products.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. I never really got as bugged by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it as you and Chalkenberry did. I mean, I certainly had caseyless MacBook Pro 1, 2, 3, 4.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it seemed to me that a lot of the issues that you guys had, like you had said, Marco, about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your printer was constantly having issues. I don’t have a fancy printer, so I never ran into any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of that sort of thing, but just my gut, and maybe it’s because I’ve just listened to everyone talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it all the time, but my gut tells me that some of these things that I can’t really attribute what they’re for, like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV wonkiness, it’s very rare that I can get my Apple TV to kick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on when I try to airplay to it, I have to go over to it and turn it on and then half the time when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I turn it on the darn thing won’t won’t be visible in my AirPlay devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m starting to wonder if a lot of these little kooky weird things that are starting to drive me up a wall

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are DiscoveryD and MDNS responder issues.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know how widespread these problems are because from what I’ve seen from all the reports on them,

⏹️ ▶️ John the nature of the problems that makes them so incredibly maddening is that they’re sort of like a poisoning

⏹️ ▶️ John of your environment. Like a lot of the fixes are like, look, unplug your Apple TV, turn off your

⏹️ ▶️ John router, shut everything down and then turn, then like start them up in this order.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because if you don’t, a feature of the new discovery do you think or whatever our existing features of the various

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple devices, they will hang on to mappings between Mac addresses and names and other stuff. They will, they

⏹️ ▶️ John will keep that information even when the machines from which that information originated are turned

⏹️ ▶️ John off. So merely restarting your Mac doesn’t fix it because there’s your Apple TV off in the corner that you forgot about that’s holding

⏹️ ▶️ John on to those poisoned addresses and forcing your Mac to pick a different number or whatever. Like I don’t understand the

⏹️ ▶️ John details of it, but a lot of the analyses I’ve read have pointed to a sort of distributed

⏹️ ▶️ John problem where it’s not just a local problem on your machine where some software that’s behaving badly, it’s that bad information

⏹️ ▶️ John spreads across your network and if you don’t sort of flush it out in the most heinous way possible,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re screwed. And that even if you do flush it out, it could still come back or whatever. So those problems are incredibly frustrating,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it also means that I think there are a lot of people, myself included, who have never had any

⏹️ ▶️ John of these problems at all because the poison has not seeped into our network for whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John reason. I remember when I had the loaner MacBook at WWDC last

⏹️ ▶️ John year with Yosemite on it, I immediately saw the two, three, four numbers going

⏹️ ▶️ John up just from using that computer machine alone by itself at WWDC, seeing my number increase.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m like, oh, well, that’s a bug, right? But when I got everything home on my home network,

⏹️ ▶️ John everything just seemed to work. And with Yosemite, my entire usage of Yosemite, I

⏹️ ▶️ John haven’t had any wifi problems, I haven’t had any printing problems, I haven’t had any networking problems.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have seen the numbers every once in a while, but they’ve never gone over two or something. So I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, this is the nature of the problem. Like, this is definitely a problem and it’s the worst kind of problem because the people who

⏹️ ▶️ John have it, it’s like, I don’t know, like an infestation of insects or something. I just burn the house down and then

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and then rebuild a

⏹️ ▶️ John new house and even then they might come back. So Yeah, this this seems like a big misstep

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a shame because this type of move like why replace MDNS respond I would just go ready well

⏹️ ▶️ John anyone who has spent a long time with OS 10 remembers the complaints about MDNS responder

⏹️ ▶️ John being flaky and having to kill it and installing old versions of MDNS responder because the old version was better than the new version

⏹️ ▶️ John like that that was a thing in many years past that MDNS responder was a source of

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of bugs and stuff or whatever. And eventually it shakes out. But it’s like someone comes in and says, look,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, the reason MDNS responder was all buggy is because it’s actually kind of the wrong design and the features distributed in

⏹️ ▶️ John the wrong way. And we really need a clean sheet approach here. Uh, and then discovery

⏹️ ▶️ John D is their clean sheet approach. It gets a new name, it does different things, but it’s, but it’s bugging. It’s got some terrible bugs that manifest

⏹️ ▶️ John in terrible ways and everybody hates it. Right. And the wrong lesson to take from this is never try

⏹️ ▶️ John to radically change anything ever. I think you have to, and those are type of moves from

⏹️ ▶️ John core OS group that I want to see. That’s why I wrote an entire section about launch D, which is a replacement for the init

⏹️ ▶️ John program, which is like old school Unix. How can you replace init? That’s like, why would you get rid of that? It

⏹️ ▶️ John works perfectly fine. It’s been around for decades, part of freebsd and BSD and Unix and everything like you’re going to get rid

⏹️ ▶️ John of init and you’re going to replace it with what some weird thing that sort of also does the same thing as Chrome, but also

⏹️ ▶️ John watches for IO and triggers jobs based on device like, I don’t even even know what you’re doing here you’re biting off more

⏹️ ▶️ John than you can chew it’s second system syndrome launch day is a stupid idea but I totally applauded launch

⏹️ ▶️ John D that’s why I wrote about it and I think it’s great and I think the launch D you know it had a bumpy

⏹️ ▶️ John start but launch D is what’s running all your Macs now that is a success discovery D not

⏹️ ▶️ John so much a success so I hope Apple’s core OS

⏹️ ▶️ John group or whoever is responsible discovery D keeps doing things like discovery D because

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what that’s what they should be doing. They should not be resting on their laurels. They should not accept

⏹️ ▶️ John the Unix underpinnings as they exist. They should always be trying to make something better. Just, you know, work on the

⏹️ ▶️ John execution.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey All right.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was gonna say one more thing. I know it’s nine as in like the this is the release where we, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John focus on stability and make things nice and blah, blah, you know, and like Marco said, in addition

⏹️ ▶️ John to doing all the usual stuff like a million bug fixes and all the frameworks and small new features and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is kind of not that they did it on purpose this way, but it is it is a beautiful symmetrical

⏹️ ▶️ John PR win for Apple because last year we were all jazzed at WRC like look,

⏹️ ▶️ John whole new language, crazy new OS, all sorts of things that you couldn’t do before.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, last year was the keyboards like new keyboards and stuff, right? That was an extensions like wow,

⏹️ ▶️ John just stars in our eyes, we always wanted from Apple. This is great. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this year, you know, after the long year of bugs and weirdness and stuff like that, this year,

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone is kind of grumbly. Apple can get the same rounds of applause and good feelings

⏹️ ▶️ John from developers by saying the exact opposite. This year, we’re going to buckle down and make everything better. And everyone will applaud

⏹️ ▶️ John and applaud like that. They have that it’s two totally different messages. Both years, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to make developers happy. And it’s not like this evil plot to do it. But it’s like, Like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what you have to do. Like what do we have to do to make developers happy? Last year, what they had to do was

⏹️ ▶️ John give them all the things that they had been withholding for a long time. This year, all they have to do is say, we’ve heard

⏹️ ▶️ John your complaints and we’re going to really buckle down and we’re going to make this like a polishing year and make everything better.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they’ll get the exact same amount of applause as they got last year. So that’s totally what I expect to

⏹️ ▶️ John happen. I want them to emphasize that they’re working on stability and refinement.

⏹️ ▶️ John and I want those to be the big applause lines from the disgruntled developers, I can’t imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John this year that they would say, we’re going even faster into the future and iOS 9 is going to have more new features than

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 8 does and it’s going to be crazy because developers will be like, oh really? Can

⏹️ ▶️ John you just fix the bugs in the frameworks that you have? Like this is one of those years. And so I think the cycle is natural

⏹️ ▶️ John and it just may be exaggerated because of the huge bonanza last year and what I imagine to be the

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of doubling down on reliability and refinement and polish this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well and also that they have the watch SDK to take some of the PR burden to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a big part of like the wow factor this year so that iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Mac OS can can kind of rest for a second you know they’re not going to rest for long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but they can they can like you know take a brief nap while the watch does its thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and app nap.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Yeah. That’ll be nice. Like the watch. I’ll also be fun to see the

⏹️ ▶️ John the phone not be the hottest product at WWDC and how that how that affects the poor phone’s ego.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You know, the Mac had to endure it. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, this used to be my conference and I was I was this and I was that and there have more sessions than we do and everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John cares about the Mac. And now it’s going to be like, oh, the watch is I guess the phone still goes long because it’s like look watch you get nothing

⏹️ ▶️ John without me all your apps come from me So that’ll probably still work out but and

⏹️ ▶️ John as for OS 10 People come about they did 1010

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re gonna change the the X to an 11 or some bogus crap like that This would be the time to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I don’t I don’t I don’t think there’s any pressure to rename that thing I think it’ll just be 1011. It’ll be a different,

⏹️ ▶️ John California place name. What will be in it? I think they can get away with the same thing saying

⏹️ ▶️ John you know Discovery D alone is Enough reason that people in the room

⏹️ ▶️ John would applaud if they emphasize that the new version of OS 10 Refines the existing features of the voice

⏹️ ▶️ John I still feel like there’s more pressure on OS 10 to have something new like every year they have Something

⏹️ ▶️ John they want to show you If they’re like last year piggybacked on iOS 8

⏹️ ▶️ John so much It’s like Oh extensions and share things and whatever and you need share a lot of the same code like it was

⏹️ ▶️ John It was as I wrote in my review two OS’s moving together Forward like we all have the same

⏹️ ▶️ John features together handoff is a feature that we share Extensions is a feature that we share like even though they manifest

⏹️ ▶️ John in different ways The feature that the abilities are the same and they only make sense together

⏹️ ▶️ John if iOS 9 says this is this is like a rebuilding polishing year Does OS 10

⏹️ ▶️ John say the same thing? This is a rebuilding polishing year Can you give OS 10 features at this point without them having equivalents

⏹️ ▶️ John in OS 9? I don’t even know I can’t other than obviously a new file system whatever but you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know

⏹️ ▶️ John if that happens I’m gonna retire like I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco gonna ever go to WVC again cuz I

⏹️ ▶️ John got one year to make a new language to go another year to make a new file system I should just never bother going again because it’s all downhill

⏹️ ▶️ John from there or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you should go every year see what else they come up with yeah no I mean like I think with with Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OS you’re gonna have you know you have similar opportunities as you do with iOS for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like enhancements to the extension system. Extensions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in more places, different kinds of extensions, just stuff like that. There is lots of room for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little things like that. I mean a lot of times, as no one knows better than you John, a lot of times with the OS’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the big headlining features of Mac OS are just like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like enhancements to mail. Enhancements to some of the basic system apps that are built as OS features

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then there’s also a bunch of you know underlying changes to to nice stuff or new APIs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that’s the kind of thing I would expect for Mac OS this year like a couple of marketing features

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like in some of the built-in apps or in finder or something not you know not like a really heavy-duty kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of thing and then just a whole bunch of API enhancements under the hood

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and refinements to extensions and stuff like that you know like I’m not expecting big stuff if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do a new file system that would be amazing for you and for the show. I wouldn’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it honestly.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean I don’t expect it either. Some people were asking about the file systems lab. I didn’t check last year’s schedule but

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t that always a lab? Isn’t that always one of the labs about file system stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think so.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like it’s not, they’re just there to talk about like you know how to use KQ or whatever to watch for file changes or the

⏹️ ▶️ John you know all the different Coco APIs for monitoring file changes

⏹️ ▶️ John and dealing with extended attributes and how to copy file. Like, that’s just, I think that’s just a standard thing they have every year.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I read nothing into it. I don’t expect a new file system. I never expect a new file system.

⏹️ ▶️ John So whatever, whatever Apple, I’m not mad. Just disappointed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh God. Um, I have a question. So in years past, it wasn’t every

⏹️ ▶️ Casey year, but in many years past, we could kind to figure out what was coming with hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Casey based on what kind of got winks and nudges when they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey discussed new APIs. The classic example of this, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is auto layout and size classes. We’re clearly indicating that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you need to start as a developer thinking about sizes that aren’t the one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we have now or two, if you include non-retina. And then the next thing you know, within that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fall we got iPhone 6 and 6 Plus.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was thinking as I was driving around earlier today, you know, what is it that we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably going to see in new APIs that indicates what new

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hardware might bring? And the thing that jumped to my mind was Force Touch. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I was planning on asking you guys was how do they tell us to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey develop for the potential for force touch without tipping their hand that the next iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will have force touch? And then it occurred to me, well, to a degree, they already have that API

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in WatchKit. And so maybe what they’ll do is, there won’t be any mention of it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey during WWDC, but when the time comes for this to be spreading across

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS, it’ll be a very similar looking API. Hopefully that makes sense. So my question

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to you guys is, is there anything you can think of that would be like the canary in the coal mine for new hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Casey features?

⏹️ ▶️ John That is the split screen thing where you divide the screen up into pieces for the big

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad. Like that code was in there, what it was in there for iOS 8 and they just, you know, someone found it in there for iOS 8

⏹️ ▶️ John and you could actually execute it and watch it do its thing. Uh, I assume that code is still

⏹️ ▶️ John being worked on and there’s no, probably no reason for it to exist until a larger iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John appears or maybe it’s a maybe it’s a headlining feature of iOS nine, but that’s a feature that

⏹️ ▶️ John I you know, I think they could put that in iOS nine and I was like, Wait a second, I thought iOS nine was a rebuilding year. It’s like, yeah, but we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John basically had this feature is iOS eight, it just wasn’t ready, it didn’t make the cut, or didn’t make sense with that larger hardware. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I could see them releasing that without telling you that they’re also going to make a bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad air. And on from the force touch thing, I think you nailed it, I think that’ll be the force touch API’s for native watch

⏹️ ▶️ John things. We all know force touches coming to other devices. When it does come, they’ll be like, Hey, and it’s the same API that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John used to from watch get done and done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the only trick about that, though, is first of all, I mean, you know, on the watch, it’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be a really simple API. The big trick with that is that on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch, force touch is only the entire screen, you don’t force touch a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco location, you force touch the screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s not a limitation of the hardware. That’s how they’ve chosen to implement it right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as far as we know you’re correct on the Mac the force touch is a positional thing it’s basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an alternate click at wherever the mouse currently is on iOS presumably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know just because of the size of the devices I would expect force touch on iOS to also be positional

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way it is on the Mac so I I would actually guess it has very little to do with the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch implementation that being said it’s also such a you would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expect it’s not a very complicated API either. It’s probably just another gesture or another

⏹️ ▶️ Marco touch event you can respond to. So that’s the kind of thing that… In previous years, when Underscore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrote Pedometer++, he wrote that entire app in a week

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because Apple added the Motion API when they announced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new iPhones. Not at WWDC that year, but that September or whenever when the iPhones were announced that had the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new M7 chip in them. That’s when they added So they could do the same thing this year, where they could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco totally leave it out of WBDC and just, you know, in September, whenever they have the iPhone event,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco announce it then, release iOS 9.1 beta with that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or 9.1 GM even with that, and just have you submit apps within that week or two that you have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that would be it. Like, they don’t really need to do it at this event.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think though that the difference is, for the M7, it was, and maybe maybe you were kind of hinting at this,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it was a very, very simple API. Whereas like you had said, the force touch API,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey while it’s pretty simple on watch kit, that may be less simple for when it hits

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS. And so I think that they could hold on to some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things like the M7 until the 11th hour, something that’s a little bit bigger and more complex,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or in again, auto layout and size classes are a great example of this. They had to at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tip their hat a little bit about it. And I don’t know, I just thought it was an interesting thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exercise as to, you know, what what might we see in the what what smoke might we see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the API that indicates a fire coming this fall?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there’s two aspects of it. One is like the different callbacks and delegate methods and event types or whatever, and

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t have to really reveal those. But the other is you would imagine when force touch comes to iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John devices, what it will come with is at least a handful of

⏹️ ▶️ John places where the where UI gets native control set is responsive to force touch in some way.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like maybe is it a new controller or a new picker or some existing control that force touch has a function on

⏹️ ▶️ John because I also agree with Marco that I believe it will be positional. Although it would be fun to have the toddler fist gesture for your iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John where they just smack the whole hand the whole screen with their fist and it says you know what, I’m interpreting that like a watch force touch

⏹️ ▶️ John where I’m just saying whole screen like that should take you home or something you know back to them anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John type of thing where they’re trying to show you what the hell is, they’re not going to force touch on their iOS hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, we don’t use this feature at all. But you developers can figure it out for something like they’re going to ship if they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to ship force touch on iOS device, it’s going to have uses in iOS in

⏹️ ▶️ John native controls in the apps that Apple ships. And by doing that, they could be like, well, here’s the API

⏹️ ▶️ John for the event. And here are the callbacks methods that you can get for on the beginning end of these type of things

⏹️ ▶️ John and positions and, and do a lot of stuff. But by the way, these native controls, these particular things,

⏹️ ▶️ John or these OS features already use that. So if you want to make an app with this new control,

⏹️ ▶️ John this new control has the ability to do something special on Force Touch. You hook up your stuff to here to do that. And by

⏹️ ▶️ John the way, if they Force Touch here, it brings up the multitask switcher, and you may have to be ready that that could

⏹️ ▶️ John happen during this screen where previously it couldn’t, stuff like that. So I expect Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John to lead on the Force Touch on iOS devices, and I think it can do that leading

⏹️ ▶️ John without much pre announcement of an API because I really do think that the vast majority

⏹️ ▶️ John of the new surface area of the API is hooking into OS related things

⏹️ ▶️ John and Apple standard controls and everything else is like well in your own thing if you want to handle these events yourself it’s just a new kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John event and maybe some new callbacks and then do whatever the hell you want.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m also like just in general with force touch and you know I said this you know about the the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Max 2, I’m not that excited about force touch. I don’t really see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it changing things dramatically for the better for much. I see where it was necessary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the watch, and it isn’t great on the watch even, but I could see why it seems like it’s a compromise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you have a very, very small screen and not a lot of room for buttons or menus or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything. So this is like the compromise of, well, you don’t have room for buttons and menus in your app so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can do the special gesture in most places and you’ll get some additional options. On iOS devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though, I think there’s enough screen space and there’s enough established and UI paradigms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there that you really don’t need force touch. You really don’t need the secondary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gesture. There’s already so many weird hidden gestures and combos you can do on iOS devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do certain things that almost nobody knows about and just serve to confuse people. I fear this might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just be another one of those things. we really don’t need this ability to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like basically right-click everywhere on iOS and search for functionality that is undiscoverable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you know it it worries me a little bit it seems like kind of a thing that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something cool that they figure out how to do in the hardware but that has very limited usefulness

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it seems like it’s gonna be overused for a while in the short term and you know it but again I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also a skeptic about forced touch on the Mac I also think that it seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s this weird third click that is not a right click, that is about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as discoverable as right click, and is this additional thing that does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco different things depending on what you click and how you click. To me, Force

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Touch seems like this kind of, it seems like it’s Apple’s fad of the year,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I don’t like it as much as they seem to.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you’re thinking of it too much as a binary thing like it is on the watch because I don’t know I don’t know the limitations

⏹️ ▶️ John of the sensors But I can imagine on something the size of an iPad or even a phone

⏹️ ▶️ John that the sensors can be Better and more sophisticated and it stops being a binary thing where it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John either you’re tapping or you’re force touching and it starts being oh Can we approximate pressure sensitive

⏹️ ▶️ John tablets or pressure sensitive finger presses? To make a finger painting app or a little kid can smush with their finger

⏹️ ▶️ John around and make thicker and thinner lines with their finger Is it sensitive enough to do that? Because again, you have the position and you have the force.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just a question of whether the sensors have that kind of resolution no matter where you press on the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you stop thinking of it as a binary on off thing, it makes actually the most sense

⏹️ ▶️ John on iOS devices, because on the watch, it’s like, yeah, the whole surface is forced touch because it’s, you know, it’s too small for you to be precisely

⏹️ ▶️ John doing or whatever. It’s a decision they made there. Maybe limited by the size of the sensors they have to have

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Mac. Same deal like it’s you’re you’re not writing on the screen. You’re not touching the screen. it’s this

⏹️ ▶️ John other thing or whatever but on an iPad or phone if force touch

⏹️ ▶️ John can be think of it instead of instead of being forced touch think of it as the screen is now pressure sensitive

⏹️ ▶️ John that has lots of implications for any kind of interface where you want

⏹️ ▶️ John different degrees of pressure not just on or off but a whole gradation of

⏹️ ▶️ John you know I don’t know 256 a couple thousand levels pressure depending on how sensitive they

⏹️ ▶️ John are for drawing apps for games even for if they can come up with a control

⏹️ ▶️ John in the same way that the current standard controls for scrolling are sort of speed sensitive as in how

⏹️ ▶️ John fast you flick and how how long your path is a long slow swipe moves

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing differently than a short fast one and tapping it stops it like those are all gestures where velocity

⏹️ ▶️ John is used as an interface element and that velocity is not on or off fast or slow,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a gradation of speeds. So if they can use a gradation in pressure to provide interface

⏹️ ▶️ John elements that behave even more sort of in a way that is familiar to being

⏹️ ▶️ John under our fingers, like it feels giving a sort of weight to the controls or new gestures that involve

⏹️ ▶️ John pressing a little bit harder or a little bit lighter, influencing how how things move or maybe how much friction there

⏹️ ▶️ John is between your finger and the imaginary surface that’s being simulated by the lights under the screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m a little bit more optimistic about it but It really all depends on I don’t know the capabilities of

⏹️ ▶️ John what they consider their force touch hardware if it really is binary And I still think they could use it

⏹️ ▶️ John to do stuff like in the interface Especially the stupid home button which you can tap a million different ways I don’t know if

⏹️ ▶️ John force touch makes that worse or better, but it’s clear that they’re kind of overloading a lot of things with

⏹️ ▶️ John Multi tap multi finger gestures. I would probably trade a couple of those for

⏹️ ▶️ John the hard press versus soft press But maybe that just makes it worse. Maybe they’ll never give up things Maybe they’ll just keep adding

⏹️ ▶️ John more and more textures This is like a hard three-finger force touch in the upper left corner and that

⏹️ ▶️ John would be crazy But I’m really hoping that the capabilities and the sensors they can fit in a device

⏹️ ▶️ John that size have more capabilities and then it can finally be the sort of input device

⏹️ ▶️ John that Reads different degrees of pressure and does smart things with them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well and the the force touch trackpad on the max I think it does have like because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they talk about how you could like draw the signature with pressure sensitivity and stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John and the fast Fast forward on the video even, like you fast forward slowly and fast forward the harder you press. I just don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John how many levels there are. It’s a lot easier to do multi-levels on the trackpad

⏹️ ▶️ John than it is to do on a big iPad screen. If I’m pressing exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John dead center with a certain amount of force, does that register the same as pressing in the lower

⏹️ ▶️ John left corner with the exact same amount of force? Maybe you need more sensors at the corners, maybe you need sensors all

⏹️ ▶️ John around. I don’t know the tech behind it. You would hope that it’s gonna be like

⏹️ ▶️ John one of those Wacom tablets or whatever, they put the pressure sensitivity in the pen, which is a clever way around this entire problem,

⏹️ ▶️ John but we need this to work with fingers or hot dogs or whatever people are using, or Cosmos,

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever they’re using to poke at their capacitive touchscreen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, also, I have a concern also, I would not necessarily think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that forced touch in iOS devices is a sure thing yet, because if you look at the teardowns,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way it works, It basically puts strain gauges on the four corners of the of the glass

⏹️ ▶️ Marco surface that it’s being put on glass flexes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you push it and The on the watch you know the watches whether it’s glass or sapphire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s it’s a pretty small surface area, and it’s a pretty thick screen on top of there So I wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expect there to be any flex there that would be a noticeable problem on these on these strain gauges But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s also

⏹️ ▶️ John arced which helps the strength like the watch is like like a like a tent that helps it stiffen it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly on the Mac track pads You can see when you see them in the store if you have one you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see You can see the thickness of the glass like if you look on on the edge of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the trackpad you could you notice that? Oh, this is this is actually a visibly thick piece of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco glass that I’m pushing here and if you think about the sizing the the track pads

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these four such track pads are are I think they’re all smaller than the iPhone 6

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plus and they’re definitely smaller than iPad so if you think about force touch coming to phones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and iPads the the ratio of the thickness of the glass that covers phones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and iPads to the relatively large surface area is very different it’s much thinner

⏹️ ▶️ Marco glass then then the force extract pads or the Apple watch screen and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder then like can you just put strain gears on the corners of those things and have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the natural like if you if you force touch in the middle of the display and a string gears on all four corners

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we are pretty far from them will it be able to reliably like consider the the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco flexing of the glass or will that be a problem not only will of course might it be a problem for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco breaking the class but that’s another the problem so I wonder if they really can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do this for say an iPad Air or if they do make a 12

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inch iPad that’s the problem gets even worse.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah that’s what I was saying like rather than just the four corners maybe all around the edges and you sort of take the average

⏹️ ▶️ John of them all and account for the flex or maybe you have sensors underneath the screen because you do have way more room to work

⏹️ ▶️ John with than the watch so you’re off imagine you have more options especially on the iPad but I

⏹️ ▶️ John think also on the phone and on the phone since the screen is smaller would flex less than the

⏹️ ▶️ John glass on the phone is also a little bit curved or whatever so I I think this is technologically possible,

⏹️ ▶️ John but again, I don’t know. There there, the force touches is a marketing term,

⏹️ ▶️ John so it could be that they have several different approaches to achieving this feature on the different devices. And that’s, that’s what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John hoping for best case. And I, I really do think the next, uh, if not the

⏹️ ▶️ John six S or whatever the heck, the revision of the six that we all expect is going to be certainly on the seven or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, the one that way they really redesigned it. Of course, people said that about NFC for years and it took forever to come to, But

⏹️ ▶️ John I really do expect for us touch to come even if it is the stupid right click that nobody uses just because

⏹️ ▶️ John I think They have the room to use it and it’s on the watch and like you said, you know

⏹️ ▶️ John Like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco if

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a fad or why the hell not or whatever They seem pretty convinced that it is an important thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean the help they brought to the Mac for crying out loud So it’s gonna come to iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can’t innovate anymore my ass

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I have a random question. Are we seeing code samples in Swift, Objective-C, or both

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in regular sessions?

⏹️ ▶️ John Both. Always both.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would, yeah, I would say, knowing Apple, knowing how they work,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say it depends on the session. Yeah, you see them in C++. Yeah. I would say you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably see one language per session, but that it will vary depending on like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what framework the team is working on, like what department they’re in.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t you feel like I expect to see slides where they say, and the API looks like this. And again,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you have to do an objective, say it looks like this, which is a little uglier or the reverse, and the API looks like this. And in Swift,

⏹️ ▶️ John it can look a little bit nicer. Like for the people who are on one side or the other of like, they’re excited

⏹️ ▶️ John about how their API can be cleaner in Swift. They’ll be excited to show you the two to compare and contrast

⏹️ ▶️ John and which which one is the primary? Which one did they show you the examples of and say, Oh, by the way, this is how it looks in the other. I think that

⏹️ ▶️ John will vary from presentation to presentation. And in my experience, Apple does

⏹️ ▶️ John not speak with one voice at WWDC when it comes to when it comes to low level

⏹️ ▶️ John technical things that individual developers and teams have opinions about. Those opinions are expressed

⏹️ ▶️ John through, you know, subtle wording on slides or, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John asides or expressions or snark or or whatever. So I fully expect

⏹️ ▶️ John that each individual presentation and framework and team will take a slightly different

⏹️ ▶️ John approach to, uh, to how they mix their Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John and objective. See, I think some will be uniform, uh, some will be a mix and some of the mix will be like,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, we’ll have a slant to the mix. Like you’ll be able to tell is someone really excited about how this looks in

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift or they annoyed that, uh, that you can also do it in Swift and they have to show you that slide too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean like I think that Swift is only one year old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the public eye and a lot of Apple hadn’t seen it before we saw it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so like people were speculating like, oh well the watch native app SDK be Swift only.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And technically there’s no reason for that. They might do a policy things to do that. I doubt it, but they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might. But there’s technically no reason for that because the watch is older than Swift.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like they started development on the watch before Swift was a thing. And so, you know, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch’s code that runs on the watch that Apple wrote is almost certainly using very little or no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Swift. We also heard from a number of people that Apple’s internal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco build system didn’t even support Swift as of not that long ago. And maybe it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does now, but that’s a slow process to get that in there.

⏹️ ▶️ John And by the way, the watch isn’t technically older than Swift. It is older than Swift’s revelation

⏹️ ▶️ John to the wider apple. That’s what it’s all about.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s true. Yes. Fair enough. Okay. So, Swift is going to come on slowly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not going to be like, oh, flip a switch and everything’s now Swift. It’s going to keep happening slowly. I am, though,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very interested to see what Swift has become. What announcements

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do we see about Swift next week? How has it changed? They’ve done a number of revisions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over the last year. So I’m wondering, have we already seen most of the changes, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is it gonna be larger changes that happen that are announced next week?

⏹️ ▶️ John They teased it on Twitter, like the official Swift account was like, oh, exciting things in store. I expect to see bar graphs

⏹️ ▶️ John showing compilation times being better. I expect to see some silly performance bake-offs showing how much faster

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift has become and maybe how much faster it is than Objective-C. I mean, they had those last year, they’re gonna have them again.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if there are any cool new features, especially involving all of the

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy stuff they’ve added to Swift to bridge the Objective-C world to

⏹️ ▶️ John all the sort of attributes and stuff they’ve added to work nicely with Arc and the Objective-C APIs.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, here, you can annotate. We, Apple, will annotate all our Objective-C things and all our

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift bridges so they all do the right things so you don’t have to do all sorts of weird stuff with optionals.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ll probably talk about how to do that, how to make your Objective-C APIs

⏹️ ▶️ John so that they’re nicely callable and Swift and vice versa. So I imagine there’ll be a lot of sessions about that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John certainly, Swift has advanced so much in its one year of life. Certainly they’ve held back some cool

⏹️ ▶️ John new features to show off. So there’ll be a lot of that of like, look how much better

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift is now than it was before. Look how much cooler Playgrounds are. Here, look at this demo of this thing you couldn’t do in Playgrounds before.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even though we all think we’ve seen it all, like haven’t we seen all that stuff? They’ve been releasing new versions of Swift all year. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John what is there left to show us? I imagine there is enough left to show make for some fun demos.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And there’s also going to be enhancements to the tools. You know, you mentioned Playgrounds. There’s almost certainly going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be Xcode Wi-Fi debugging just for the watch so you can do native watch apps. Stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. Like there’s gonna be enhancements to that. It’s all gonna be exciting. Oftentimes what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you hear in the in the platform of State of the Union, which is the big session in the afternoon of the keynote day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s not live-streamed usually, oftentimes the things you hear there matter more to developers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than you hear in the keynote because that’s where they usually talk about things like major Xcode improvements

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stuff like that that just are really helpful in day-to-day work. So I’m just looking forward to all this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff. Even if there aren’t a lot of major headlining features

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are important to me, every year Apple does really useful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things in the tools and the APIs that I benefit from. So I’m just looking forward to that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So no, no new car? Is that an appropriate

⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC announcement? I guess if you can’t develop for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but you could drive it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m gonna say no car.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Worldwide Drivers Championship?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Hey, they had a Ferrari at WWDC last year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They did, yeah, it was on the third floor, somehow, for… I don’t know, how does it get

⏹️ ▶️ John there? I don’t know, how does it get there? I was so annoyed when that disappeared. I’m like, surely that will be here all week and I can go over

⏹️ ▶️ John and lovingly stroke it in between sessions. But it disappeared so quickly. I barely, I got like one picture of it on my iPod Touch

⏹️ ▶️ John and then it came out of a session, it was gone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, can you imagine like, you know, developers like reaching into that big bowl of Skittles in the afternoon and then going over to touch the Ferrari.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like that’s, yeah, they don’t want that, come on.

⏹️ ▶️ John They can wash the car, it’s worth it, come on. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Harry’s, Studio Neat, and Warby Parker. and we will see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can follow them At C-A-S-Y-M-I-S-S-K-C-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-I-N-T

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Paco, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John I forgot in the follow-up section, I forgot my other item of follow-up, which was that Velveeta shells and cheese taste like

⏹️ ▶️ John melted PVC plastic. Kraft mac and cheese forever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t even know what to say here because Kraft Mac and Cheese

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has no taste. It doesn’t taste like anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, in

⏹️ ▶️ John fairness, it tastes like salt. Keep in mind that I’m a super taster, Casey. So I don’t have that problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, well, it just must suck to be you. It actually must suck to be

⏹️ ▶️ John you. No, it’s great. Tastes like a thousand pears. Lex will tell you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, wait, pears in the fruit?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a reference. Don’t worry

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Oh, I should have known. What kind of pear? Because different pears taste different. It’s a reference.

⏹️ ▶️ John I hope it’s a reference. Now I’m going to Google it. I don’t know why you two have me doubting. I shouldn’t. You shouldn’t be able to make me doubt about

⏹️ ▶️ John my references. Bosch pears are the best pears.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just, I can’t, I don’t, I genuinely, like, obviously, taste is completely subjective.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not, as much as I joke, I’m not saying that you’re wrong, especially if you are a super taster.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I just really don’t understand, having had Kraft

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mac and cheese and Velveeta, Like I can understand if you said, well, maybe the consistency of Elvita is not my thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or perhaps, I don’t know, maybe you just don’t like the taste, but with craft,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s like, there’s nothing to taste. It’s just there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s the water of mac and cheese. It’s just there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Elvita, like I was not joking with the taste like melted plastic. It has a weird plastic-y aftertaste,

⏹️ ▶️ John which maybe you’re not picking up, but it is definitely there. Right. It looks like it smells like

⏹️ ▶️ John and to me it tastes like plastic right and that’s not a pleasant thing The Kraft Mac and Cheese is not high

⏹️ ▶️ John in art I’m just saying like if you’re gonna pick your junk food, I would not pick junk food that has a weird aftertaste It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John those olestra potato chips. Like just give me regular potato chips. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a regular the regular potato chips in This analogy is the Kraft one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I would agree with that. But I don’t just Kraft Mac and Cheese. It’s so bland

⏹️ ▶️ John You got all those recipes for putting chilies in it that our readers our listeners sent

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey us. Yeah Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m like it’s I can understand I’m less bothered by people not liking Velveeta

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than I am about people swearing the Mac that Kraft mac and cheese is so much tastier Cuz

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it just doesn’t taste like freaking anything.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not so much tastier. It’s the Velveeta is so vile. That’s what it is It’s like it’s not we’re not moving craft

⏹️ ▶️ John up the continuum to say this is like great food We’re just saying that we’re pushing Velveeta down the continuum. And by the way, I did a Google for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was close It’s a hundred pairs and a million pairs, not a thousand. So I was right in the middle there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have no idea what you’re talking about.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I still maintain that busk pairs are the best pairs. Also, I don’t understand hard pair people.

⏹️ ▶️ John Hard pair. Yeah, are there hard pair people?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll eat a hard pair, right? I’m not against it, but you’re saying people who don’t like soft

⏹️ ▶️ John pairs. Like it goes too soft and they’re like, oh, that’s it, I can’t handle it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, people who just basically treat pairs like apples and just bite them when they’re solid as a rock.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I can do that. I’m not I’m not against that, but I agree that they they get it’s like it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John banana ripeness. You’ve seen the variability in the the ripeness of bananas people are willing to eat.

⏹️ ▶️ John Some people eat them super green where you feel like they’re going to get a stomach ache. Some people wait them to go entirely brown on the

⏹️ ▶️ John outside and some people are in between. I think pears maybe the continuum is more abbreviated,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I will eat a pear when it’s way too hard because it’s better than not

⏹️ ▶️ John having a pear and I will reject the pear when It’s gone way too soft, but I’m probably more

⏹️ ▶️ John towards your opinion of what the sweet spot is But it’s definitely on the soft end.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will I would rather not have a pair than have a hard pair

⏹️ ▶️ John Well this hard and there’s like I am having trouble biting this you know like apples apples You can

⏹️ ▶️ John always bite apple hardness. I will eat the pair.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will wait for For a bosque pear I will wait until it is almost as soft

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a ripe avocado avocado before eating it and it is delicious that way.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s maybe a little too far for me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just don’t like pears. I have nothing to add to this conversation.

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t like pears? Nope. What kind of person doesn’t like pears? What is objectionable?

⏹️ ▶️ John But do you not like apples? No, I love apples. Like pears, what is objectionable about them?

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re sweet and like, they’re, I don’t understand that at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just, I don’t care. I don’t care for pears. I don’t know what you want me to say. I just don’t think they’re very tasty. don’t like plums.

⏹️ ▶️ John Plums are weird. Plums look like a gel fruit. I can understand you being turned off. Pears are just like an apple, but

⏹️ ▶️ John taste different. But taste better, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they’re bigger, and they last longer. Everything

⏹️ ▶️ John about pears is better. Some of them are fuzzy on the outside that can be turned off. What? I’ve never seen that kind.

⏹️ ▶️ John Pears, you know, they have a little furry texture on the outside.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I’ve ever seen a furry pear.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re out there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, Accidental Food Podcast, yay.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you started it. No, you did with your damn no, this was follow-up. That was follow

⏹️ ▶️ John from last week of your big conversation talking about mac and cheese and Fast food chains and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m following up that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing follow-up for the world.

⏹️ ▶️ John I saw I forgot I forgot it in the first part.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I Think I think Declan’s teething and so I slept for like three or four hours yesterday and I want to die

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s my sob story of the day. How’s potty training?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, we I guess we were supposed to start that

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Is this the royal we? Who

⏹️ ▶️ John is the we you’re talking about here? The world was supposed to start that. You’re expecting

⏹️ ▶️ John Adam to take some initiative in this area?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John or the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco government, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ll come in the night and potty train your child, if only that’s how it worked.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Potty training as a service? Is there like pee camp? Can you like send them to a camp to just learn?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Your house

⏹️ ▶️ John is pee camp, get ready. Our whole house is one giant toilet.