Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

114: So Far, So OK

NAS backups, battery life, WWDC ticketing, the new Photos app, and Casey’s terrible mistake.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey In the show notes someone has deleted a very important note that note read as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey follows But John this looks an awful lot like homework Because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m assuming it wasn’t Marco that put in all sorts of information about photos for OS 10. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not homework It’s like it looks an awful lot like homework the

⏹️ ▶️ John bare minimum of getting anything written down about a topic And it’s like oh my goodness if

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t write this down there would be nothing there would just be like a bullet point that said photos.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m just saying I don’t like the look of homework.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah no Casey this is not homework this is simply research that was done in John’s home that was in preparation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for some future work.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Big research

⏹️ ▶️ John I went to web pages and copy and pasted some stuff. It’s no more research than getting the feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John emails we get and copying and pasting information from them into here and then you complain like you didn’t give me a link to that tweet so

⏹️ ▶️ John apparently it’s okay for me to do homework then when you You can’t find a link to a tweet on your own, but now

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t. Anyway, it’ll be fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, goodness. All right. Well, now that I’ve publicly shamed you and then inevitably shamed myself,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we should probably do some follow-ups. So let’s start with Piti Pong. I hope I said that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right.

⏹️ ▶️ John I went back and forth like five emails trying to get this name right. Piti Pong.

⏹️ ▶️ John wrote us about the Thailand crisis that caused the the hard drive

⏹️ ▶️ John problems because of how many hard drives are manufactured there and in the past show I had attributed it to

⏹️ ▶️ John a tsunami with a bunch of waffle words around it like tsunami or something anyway it was

⏹️ ▶️ John not a tsunami it was a severe flood in 2011 that caused this problem with hard drives

⏹️ ▶️ John the tsunami was in 2004 in a different part of Thailand and apparently the Seagate

⏹️ ▶️ John hard drive factories were not in the flooding area. So why would their quality

⏹️ ▶️ John go down? This is in relation to the backblaze blog post we talked about last show

⏹️ ▶️ John about how they bought a bunch of Seagate hard drives around the time of the flood and like 90% of them were dead in four years.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe more pressure on the one remaining working factory. Maybe parts they got were bad,

⏹️ ▶️ John like all sorts of I can imagine. This email said that it’s you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John we can say that sea factories were almost, uh, almost were not affected by the severe flooding. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John not like directly as in they were had water in them, but clearly something related to the flood

⏹️ ▶️ John went wrong to cause their, that batch of drives to be terrible. Like they bought thousands of drives and 90% dead

⏹️ ▶️ John in four years is not a good deal. So anyway, we got the natural disaster wrong and apparently their factory

⏹️ ▶️ John wasn’t underwater, but they were clearly affected. They also might’ve just sucked.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John I suppose, but like you Solve those numbers like those are outside. Yeah, that’s pretty the margin of error that you

⏹️ ▶️ John know Especially for backblast for them to call it out like they they bought tons of different hard drives from different manufacturers And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s this and fluctuations, but you know, that was ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So on a related well quasi related note Do you guys have spare drives for your sinologies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just in case one dies?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t I Did that for a while, but now instead of doing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now I just converted it to one of the raid modes that keeps hot spares anyway. Like I used to have spares

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like sitting outside of it and I recognize now this is this is less good than that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s not gonna make that big of a difference.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you’re using the the Synology hybrid raid or whatever it’s called, the SHR I think it is?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have used that in the past it’s a little slow for me so now I have well now I have my whole crazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iSCSI setup which I never actually talked about fully on the show but now my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire Synology is one giant iSCSI volume with whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco variant of RAID 5 or 6 that has two disks that are able to fail. So I have that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plus one hot spare that’s ready to be swapped into that if needed. And then I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just all one giant iSCSI volume that’s accessed by network shares on this Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mini that I have that’s doing the live stream right now. And so that way the Mac Mini serves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the role of being my standalone live streaming box so I don’t have to worry about software updates breaking it, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is always a problem with audio stuff. Meanwhile it also runs Backblaze on it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to back up the entire contents of that iSCSI volume as a network share

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and also serve it over the network to other computers on my network.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Interesting. So it’s complicated.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah for my Synology I have two physical volumes that are my Time Machine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey backups in whatever RAID is completely not redundant because it’s just Time Machine and I don’t really care.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah I have that too. Sorry I forgot. Yeah I do have two disks in there that are in RAID 0 that are just for Time Machine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. And then I have the other six that are using Synology, whatever it is, RAID. I keep wanting to say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hybrid, but I feel like that’s wrong. That’s what it is. SHR. Oh, it is. Okay. And so I’ve been thinking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of these days when I have a little bit of extra money for Amazon, I should just get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey another like three terabyte drive and just have it sitting there waiting in case something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey goes wrong. But then the other side of me thinks, well, I could overnight myself one if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really got desperate one failed. So what’s the big deal? I don’t know. I was just curious if you guys had any spares. What’s your approach

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on this, John?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I use mine in a weird way. I do have a separate time machine volume like both of you because basically,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you can only have one time machine volume. I have it actually set up as raid one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because it’s the one part of the system that I wanted a little bit of redundancy on and didn’t really care too much about

⏹️ ▶️ John speed. So it’s not raid zero. So it’s a raid one, two disk raid one volume for time machine. I back up

⏹️ ▶️ John both of my computers over the network to that time machine thing. By the way, someone asked on Twitter, like they showed me

⏹️ ▶️ John their backup setup and they said is this, do you think this is sufficient? I gave him a thumbs up or something. One thing

⏹️ ▶️ John I realized now that they were missing is, I think when they added this, maybe mountain line or maybe it was even Yosemite,

⏹️ ▶️ John they added the ability to add multiple targets for time machine. So you could add a disc to your time machine thing

⏹️ ▶️ John and it will back up also to that disc. So it won’t like back up half to one and half

⏹️ ▶️ John to the other. do a full backup to one target and a full backup to the other target and basically alternate. And I do that one

⏹️ ▶️ John of my time machine backups is to a local disk that’s sitting on the desk with my with the two respective computers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And another time machine backup is over the network to the Synology on their raid one volume.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they both fit on there. And then the rest of the disks, I don’t do anything with a raid

⏹️ ▶️ John I had it range differently in the beginning, but now I don’t do anything with raid because basically, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, rate is not a backup strategy. A rate is mostly there to make sure your downtime is as small as possible, but I don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John if my downtime is a couple of days or even a week or whatever, there’s nothing essential on there. It’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, media and stuff like that mostly. So I have a bunch of different volumes

⏹️ ▶️ John that are complete copies of each other. Like I have my media volume, my media fits in under three terabytes.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think I have like three or four copies of my media. One

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of them is

⏹️ ▶️ John synced with like the built-in synology thing to the other one. of them I copy with carbon copy cloner

⏹️ ▶️ John on my Mac to the other volume at different intervals. And it’s it’s very strange. But basically,

⏹️ ▶️ John what I wanted to have is like, look, if one of these things goes bad, I can just yank it out,

⏹️ ▶️ John order a new hard drive from Amazon doesn’t really matter what size it is, because they weren’t in a raid set or anything. It’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John like a new hard drive, right. And while I do that, I still have two more copies of all my data. Like, basically, I’m taking

⏹️ ▶️ John advantage of the fact that the Synology holds tremendous amount of data, and I don’t have that much data. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m using it as a series of volumes. So far the drives have been

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. I’m not really worried about them failing. You do get you guys get that monthly disc health report.

⏹️ ▶️ John Xenology will email you and say here’s the health report for your discs. It will tell me tell you how

⏹️ ▶️ John many bad sectors and how many errors or whatever. All zeros every month on these things. So I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not particularly worried about them. Lots of redundant data on there. Like basically I have

⏹️ ▶️ John the same set of data copied multiple times on multiple plain old single disc volumes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s really not bad. It’s not the answer I expected, but I can get behind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I have spare empty disks still, like so if I need to put something else in. It seemed

⏹️ ▶️ John like a strange setup to me and I tried different arrangements, but in the end, it’s like, look, I don’t care about downtime, I just care

⏹️ ▶️ John about the data being safe. And I know now if I download something or rip something

⏹️ ▶️ John and put it in my media drive, it will slowly migrate to the other copies of the media

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco drive over time.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’ll have three copies of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And do neither of you guys have online backup for your Synology stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ John I do. I mount it on my wife’s computer and then I use CrashPlan which can backup network drives.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yep. Ditto. Yeah, that’s the one thing I wish Backblaze did. And they’ve said a number of times that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just kind of a cost issue because NAS drives can be huge.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I really hope, they’ve always said that they are thinking about it in the future. I really hope they do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco network drives because that’s the one downside of it. And I like it so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much without that, that I’d go with this crazy setup with mounting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iSCSI on a Mac Mini to have it be hosted on a Mac officially and have it be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco backed up that way. But I’ve tried CrashPlan running on the Synology because they have an actual client that runs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on there. I’ve tried CrashPlan running on a Mac that’s backing it up over the network.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And whatever the reason is, it doesn’t work for me. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s some kind of issue that the crash plan client is still written in Java

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there’s some kind of issue where you start hitting weird memory limits. If you have a large

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number of files, regardless of the file size, I think it’s just if you have a very large number of files,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the crash plan client can start crapping out doing weird things and erroring out or being just ridiculously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slow to upload them or to track them. And I hit those problems every time I’ve tried CrashPlan,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether it was on the Synology itself or on a Mac. And I’ve tried… There are so many alternative

⏹️ ▶️ Marco configuration files. I even blogged about one when I found one that I thought worked, and it worked for a week and then stopped working.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve had nothing but trouble trying to back up a very large number of files to CrashPlan.

⏹️ ▶️ John That was one of my strategies for the Synology, too, is big files. So it’s like movie

⏹️ ▶️ John rips and even the time machine thing, it’s disk images. It’s not all the little

⏹️ ▶️ John individual Time Machine files, because when you do Time Machine over a network, it makes huge disk images. It is just really big

⏹️ ▶️ John files. So it’s not a million files. It is a small number of multi-gigabyte files.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that’s why I’m able to get away with CrashPlan backing it up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I dig it. Moving on, we should talk about the new MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey battery, the life it has under load. I’m not sure if this was John or Marco that added this.

⏹️ ▶️ John We were wondering a couple shows back, this new MacBook, it’s really skinny, it’s got a very tiny little battery

⏹️ ▶️ John in there, it’s got a very low power CPU, and

⏹️ ▶️ John the battery life we weren’t sure about because it hadn’t shipped yet. And I’m like, well, maybe it gets the battery life they say if you use it

⏹️ ▶️ John lightly, but what is it like if you use it heavily? If you really stress this thing by, you know, just using

⏹️ ▶️ John Xcode constantly or using Photoshop or Final Cut or something like, if you really, really use this,

⏹️ ▶️ John does the battery life drop dramatically because like the CPU is like oh I’m gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John be very conservative and sip power but it like you know the ratings are like 1.1 gigahertz or 1.3

⏹️ ▶️ John but it turbos up to like 2.9 it’s like what if you leave it in turbo mode all the time is it just gonna destroy your battery

⏹️ ▶️ John and Marco was musing that rather than just seeing battery life tests of like maybe a heavy

⏹️ ▶️ John and light load he would like to see Delta’s like how much worse

⏹️ ▶️ John is the battery life on this laptop in heavy usage versus light usage and he was guessing

⏹️ ▶️ John that maybe the new MacBook would not be that great in that area because maybe gets all its power savings from being really

⏹️ ▶️ John careful but if you really stress it it just becomes more like a regular CPU so true to form and

⏹️ ▶️ John tech did that test with a bunch of laptops and as it turns out the new

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook one one port to 12 inch retina whatever you want to call it thing has the best

⏹️ ▶️ John performance of any of the Apple laptops they tested when comparing its high load versus its

⏹️ ▶️ John low load. It retains 62.2% of its battery life and the next best one is 59

⏹️ ▶️ John and it goes down with the 11-inch 2011 MacBook Air being the worst where

⏹️ ▶️ John it gets like 38% 38.3% of its low load battery

⏹️ ▶️ John life. So we’ll put a link to this in the show notes. It’s a pleasant surprise that the newest notebook not only

⏹️ ▶️ John has the lowest power CPU and the tiniest battery but also takes the smallest hit when you use it at load.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now Marco’s blog post I think was about how all these are not great that all

⏹️ ▶️ John of them have this great battery life if you just surf the web but if you use any of them hard forget about all

⏹️ ▶️ John day you’re down into the four or five hour

⏹️ ▶️ Marco range. Yeah that was the most depressing part for me because you know Apple Apple loves to use this phrase all day battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life now and of course what what is considered all day It varies

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by what device they’re talking about and also by how you’re using it. And so all-day battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life on the watch is, from all the reviews we’ve heard so far, sufficient to actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last through the day for most people, unless you’re really using it a lot and having the screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a lot. Then some of the reviews have said, oh, I had to charge it midway through the day or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it seemed like, for the most part, that’s fairly accurate if you use it lightly the way Apple has made

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it possible to use today. The iPhone and iPad are both similarly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco advertised. I don’t know if they’ve actually used the phrase all-day battery life on the iPhone yet, but I’m pretty sure they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used it on the iPad. And similarly advertised of all-day. And the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that actually seems pretty accurate. It seems like it gets about 8 to 10

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours of battery life, depending on what it’s doing most of the time. The iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is more varied. It seems to depend more on what you’re doing and things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco radio reception, how hard the cell radio is working, whether you’re using GPS or not,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like that. The laptops, Apple advertises them as having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco generally, I think the lowest claim they make now is like seven hours and that’s on the 15-inch, something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And their claims are pretty accurate if you compare them to other third-party

⏹️ ▶️ Marco light web browsing type tasks. And the NNTEC one here, they showed basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same thing. Their numbers line up pretty well with Apple’s for a light web browsing workload.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The problem though is… And so light web browsing workloads right now, you can get… If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you consider the old MacBook Air, the non-Retina MacBook Air, you can get 12 hours

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the 13-inch. But if you only want a Retina machine, which I was saying, at this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point, I think most buyers who were considering buying a new laptop today, the smart move, obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think is to go retina. I like I wouldn’t consider any other machine today besides a retina machine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you know so for that you’re you’re maxing out at eight hours

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of light usage and if you’re using it and and that’s only that’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not even the 15 inch if you get the 15 inch you’re maxing out more like six to seven of light usage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then the heavy usage which their heavy usage is not even that heavy it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like the it’s still web browsing, but I think it’s like loading pages more frequently and also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco downloading a large file and playing a movie in the background. I wouldn’t call that a very heavy workload.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re probably not maxing out any of the cores for, you know, for a sustained amount of time. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s like, this is a very generous definition of a heavy workload.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the movie playing in the background is substantial because it is just never giving the CPU a break. It’s always just

⏹️ ▶️ John decoding, decoding.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Maybe. Unless it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John using like hardware H264. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is, but but still I mean it that’s that’s not a very I mean that would have been a heavy test

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in 2006 that is not a very heavy test in 2015, but either way okay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s that’s fine under that allegedly heavy workload. None of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the retina machines get over five hours the the new MacBook one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gets five point oh three hours on an insects test every other one was below five

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and The 15s are four. Like, and this makes me sad as somebody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who usually wants the 15 inch laptop. So, this, like these numbers,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is not all day battery life. And this is my main disappointment here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the current lineup is that if you actually use it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in any way heavily, you’re not gonna make it on a cross country flight necessarily,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re probably not gonna make it all day at work if you forgot your adapter at home, stuff like that, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these scenarios that don’t necessarily happen every day, but it’s clear that Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pushing that direction. Like the MacBook One having no MagSafe, we talked about this a lot before, where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s pretty clear through the way they were things, and even just the way it’s designed, it’s pretty clear that they don’t intend for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this thing to be used plugged in all the time, they intend for it to be more like an iPad, where you plug it in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to charge it at night, basically, and you use it all day without being plugged in. and presumably you’re moving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about somewhat. But that’s, as we can see from this, under the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco heavy workload here, even the MacBook One only lasted five hours. So that’s a pretty short day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you don’t have your, if you’re not plugging it in. And all the other ones even fair, much worse. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my argument here is I wish there was, there were some models that that broke out of this pattern. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the heavy workload battery life is, these are such small numbers. There

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used to be different categories of laptops. There would be the desktop replacement,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the mid-range, and the thin and light ultra-portables. Right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, it seems like everything Apple makes is a thin and light ultra-portable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My argument is that I wish they would make not even many, but just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one or two models that traded thin in lightness a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little bit for a bigger battery and just offered really great battery life. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not asking for their entire line to do this. I know if fitness is sexy and it sells really well and that’s great and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love it and that’s fine. I get the appeal there, but I wish it wasn’t the only choice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the lineup like there all these things are, you know, moving some sliders and and making

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these trade-offs. There’s so many trade-offs to be made here with designing a physical thing like this, especially with battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco power versus weight. And fitness, I want to be clear, fitness is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually the main goal. I think the main goal is weight savings and fitness is something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can do afterwards as a result of having removed components from the inside that were big and heavy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I just I wish there were other options here. And a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have pointed to well, you can get an external battery pack for things like the iPhones and iPads and the MacBook One now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has USB-C that’s probably going to be compatible with with external battery packs as well though

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like there aren’t any that really have enough power yet but you know they that will happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’ll be able to get external battery packs and that that’s good but you can’t do it yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s problem number one and problem number two is as you see with the iPhone and battery solutions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there external battery packs have a huge cost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco associated with with using them rather than just having more battery life in the device to begin with.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s similar to how I was complaining a few weeks back about how USB hubs are all pretty terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that by removing USB ports and force people to use hubs you’re forcing people to trade a nice reliable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco internal integrated thing for an external thing made by random third parties that usually isn’t very good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Batteries have similar issues where if the device has good battery life up front built

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in then it’s it’s just nicer it’s better if you have to rely on external batteries. External batteries have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their own charging circuitry. They have their own cases. If you’re talking about an iPhone battery case, that means you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two different layers of plastic or metal around this battery that you have to then add

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the thickness of the phone, rather than just having it built in and skipping all those layers. You have ports to worry

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about. You have different cables. You have to keep it charged somehow, and it charges separately. And it might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not be a pass-through kind of charge, or you have a different cable. There’s so many little annoyances

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and costs and burdens, taxes really, associated with relying on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco external battery packs to supplement your devices. It’s so much nicer and more efficient to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have them built in. We

⏹️ ▶️ John were talking about this earlier in the week, I think I mentioned like a Mophie for your Apple Watch.

⏹️ ▶️ John Same deal with the Apple Watch, not a lot of battery life. Well, get a crazy G-Shock looking Mophie type

⏹️ ▶️ John case that clamps onto the thing somehow and provides extra battery power by making it bulkier.

⏹️ ▶️ John well with the MacBook one how about like a an iPhone Mophie style thing for the MacBook one that clamps

⏹️ ▶️ John onto the bottom and makes it thicker right or you know thinking of your the logical conclusion of your

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of battery outlier thing is bring back the 17-inch put the MacBook ones CPU inside

⏹️ ▶️ John it and just fill the rest with battery still still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one port of course that’s the thing too because because they offer machines that have giant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco batteries but they have hotter CPUs and GPUs. Exactly, like as you move up the battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco capacity amount, they also ramp up the component types so that you can’t get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a 15-inch MacBook Pro with a 15-watt TDP CPU in it, like the ones that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go in the MacBook Air. You can’t get that. They don’t offer that option. And I would do that if they offered… The MacBook 1

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CPU is pretty low to get that 4.5-watt TDP. I might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still take it, but it’s pretty low. But even if they just put the MacBook Air class CPU, the 15

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watt-ish TDP range. They take that and put it in the 15-inch rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the 35-40 watt TDPs they have in there for the quad cores. I would buy that because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then you’d have this computer that has way more battery life than the current 15s.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And yeah, it wouldn’t have as good a performance, but I don’t necessarily need quad cores on my laptop, and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bet I’m not the only one. I mean, you can look right now, you can see the sales of the MacBook One being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apparently pretty good considering you can’t get them like they’re there. It seems like they the sales

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are likely exceeding their projected demand for it. So obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there there is demand here for things that have other qualities besides top performance.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Man I would kill for it for why wouldn’t kill but I would love a 15-inch laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that had a really low power CPU in it and just gave me all that bonus battery life

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a trade-off to that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Did you see the link they put in chat room to this tough armor snap-on case for the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Watch. This does not add battery to it but just merely makes your Apple Watch bigger and uglier. It’s so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh my god that was not a joke? No look I put the link in, look at the links in the chat room. I saw a picture of this

⏹️ ▶️ John flyby on Twitter I thought it was a joke. Yeah I mean I guess it protects the nice shiny.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you get the sport one and don’t want people to know you can cover it up with this thing. Like oh yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the Apple Watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not the sport at all. Yeah I don’t I I don’t think you’re gaining anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by adding this to it though. Yeah, it’s too bad it doesn’t come with any battery.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So bad. It’s funny you were talking about thinness and battery life because although I don’t have a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say about the battery life, earlier today I was at work and the IT

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guy at work sent me an IM and was like, hey, I have a Mac question for you, would you mind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey coming over? And so I went over to his desk and long story short, our CEO had upgraded from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the very, very first Retina MacBook Pro to a brand new 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the IT guy wanted to get our CEO’s 160 or whatever it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gig VMware Fusion VM from one laptop to the other. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he had this like three terabyte external drive hanging off the old machine. And he said, well, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey won’t let me write to it. Why? Because it’s NTFS. And so initially,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my first thought was, well, duh. let’s just get a couple of ethernet cables and hook it up to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a switch and life will be good, except they’re too thin and they don’t have ethernet ports.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I said, okay, well, we’ll just get the stupid dongles that you have. Oh, we don’t have any dongles. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s like, I understand why we want them to be thin, just like you guys said. It’s sexy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It sells. It’s lighter in many cases, easier to carry. But God, what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wouldn’t have given for a couple of darn ethernet ports. Like, is that really too much to ask? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, it just seems crazy to me. Why don’t you just reboot into Windows? Well, and actually what he had said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was, you know what, I’ll dupe the VM and I’ll have one of the VMs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Windows copy onto the external drive, copy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the duplicate of the VM onto the external drive. So it’s Windows writing to an NTFS partition.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But that was really convoluted until, and we almost did it until we realized that, oh wait, we have other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey externals we can use and we can just format them to be HFS plus ding and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pray for the best. Now I did try airdrop, but that was so unbelievably slow for 160

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gig file that we didn’t even see the little circle progress meters start to fill in.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s probably not really made for that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey No.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you couldn’t do Thunderbolt. Both ways. They have that now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t know if that was a possibility. And I was confident we didn’t have the cables even if it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the other part. Yeah. The problem with Thunderbolt networking is that nobody has Thunderbolt cables just lying around.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly. I don’t know. It’s just, I agree with you guys. I wish just a shade more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thickness I really don’t think would be so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And again, it doesn’t have to be the whole product line. It doesn’t even have to be the main product. But like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 13-inch MacBook Pro, the 15-inch MacBook Pro, these are things that are already like not,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re a little bit past the mainstream. They’re a little bit above the mainstream. The 15-inch is significantly above the mainstream.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I even said in that article, I wish they’d bring back the 17. I get a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of people saying, oh my god, I’ll buy that in a second. People love the 17. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s okay to have something at the top of the lineup that is not thin and light. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even if you look even at the new Mac Pro design, right, like which we talked about I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the past, but even if you look at that, they’ve made trade-offs there that weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco necessarily, that nobody was really asking for, but they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco made them regardless and reducing the amount of slots and bays and ports and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Some of that is beneficial and some of it is just kind of, well, I didn’t really need that, but oh well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And again, I wish that for things like the pro customers, the pro products,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wish the thinness and lightness wasn’t as high of a priority as it is. I still want them to work on that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and bring that to the 15-inch line, but again, it doesn’t have to be the only option.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. All right. Why don’t you tell us about something that’s cool these days.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our first bunch of this week is cards against humanity.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse are talking about toasters more exciting than a roller coaster.

⏹️ ▶️ John Will it fit on his countertop. I hope the reviews never stop.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So John what is the toaster oven of the week. So

⏹️ ▶️ John this week we have the Proctor Silex durable toaster oven broiler model number

⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is a model number 31116R.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is a small one, very small, I think it’s the smallest toaster I’ve tried so far.

⏹️ ▶️ John Barely fits two slices of bread. Looks very tiny and cute.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, wait, wait, is this white? Yep. I ask not because of white, ha ha ha ha.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, because I’m looking up on Amazon as this as you’re talking to me about this and as you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying the words you can barely fit two slices in it, I see the title on Amazon, which reads,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m reading this directly, Proctor Silex four-slice toaster oven, comma, white.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John definitely not it. The knobs are not even

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey close.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, very small, two slices if you’re lucky. I think two

⏹️ ▶️ John big slices probably wouldn’t even fit. It’s got two, I think the quartz elements, the big larger ones that

⏹️ ▶️ John light up really quickly instead of the resistive ones that are that are thinner and take a long time to glow. Two big elements,

⏹️ ▶️ John one on top, one on bottom, with really big nice metal guards over them. It looks

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of cute, but part of that cuteness is the fact that it has a curved top, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is just a bad idea. Like, because everyone wants to put stuff on top of the toaster. At the very least, you put the little tray

⏹️ ▶️ John that it comes with on top of the toaster. Maybe you put potholders on top of it. I know you probably shouldn’t put a lot of stuff because it gets hot, but people

⏹️ ▶️ John do, and you don’t have a lot of counter space. You put stuff on top of the toaster. You make it curved, everything you put on top sort of wants to skitter off the

⏹️ ▶️ John side it’s ridiculous so bad idea there. The door feels pretty flimsy the handle attached

⏹️ ▶️ John to the door feels flimsy when you open the door it feels like it might come off in your hand it doesn’t pull the tray out

⏹️ ▶️ John when you open. The pan like the little pan that comes with

⏹️ ▶️ John has a thing where it slides underneath the wire rack so you can kind of put something on the wire rack then if it drips it won’t drip

⏹️ ▶️ John onto the heating elm it’ll drip into the pan but of course the pan will also block the heat I’m not entirely sure why that is in there

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s an interesting feature at least. That tray sturdiness is reasonable it doesn’t look like it was

⏹️ ▶️ John stamped out of a piece of aluminum foil but it’s not particularly sturdy. It’s got two knobs on front a refreshingly

⏹️ ▶️ John simple interface just two knobs no buttons no anything else. The top

⏹️ ▶️ John knob is for temperature so you go from like 0 to 450 and then if you go past 450 you’re into the toast zone

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s got a broil setting too that’s like right around 450 and the bottom knob is basically just a timer they put

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of markings on it but what it boils down down to is you turn it clockwise and it’s a timer. You turn it to the left and it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John forced on and it stays on. This toaster is a ticker. So-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, you must love that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the way you do anything with it is top knob, either set it to a temperature to bake, set it to broil or set

⏹️ ▶️ John it to toast. And then to make it do anything, you take the bottom knob and you crank it. Either you put it to the

⏹️ ▶️ John force on position, which I’m not sure why you would do that. Maybe because like the bottom timer only goes to 15 minutes. So

⏹️ ▶️ John if you want to go for longer than 15 and don’t want to have to recrank it, just put it in the forced on position. And then I guess don’t forget

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s on or you’ll burn your house down. But yeah, you turn it to whatever you want. And they have little marks

⏹️ ▶️ John that look like toast getting darker around the five minute mark, but bottom line, it’s just a timer. Tick, tick, tick, tick,

⏹️ ▶️ John tick, pretty darn loud, maybe two ticks a second. I really don’t like ticking

⏹️ ▶️ John toasters. I just, you know, you don’t want that in the morning. You wanna have this loud thing

⏹️ ▶️ John ticking in your kitchen in the morning? I definitely don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really? I mean, I would think it would be helpful to help indicate that it is on.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, like what I want from a toaster is again, like for informed by my childhood, is when we had a little knob,

⏹️ ▶️ John you push it down. And then when it’s done, it goes ding and the little thing comes up. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that lets you know that your toast is done. In between, I don’t need to know, right? Just ding when you’re done.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s all I want. So, but anyway, since it’s a small toaster and has the two big quartz elements,

⏹️ ▶️ John I had some high hopes that it would be a fast toaster, but it is way slow. It was like more

⏹️ ▶️ John than a minute slower than my other toaster to toast a single slice of bread. And the reason

⏹️ ▶️ John that does that is that the bottom element does not turn on when you’re in toast mode. The bottom

⏹️ ▶️ John element does not turn on when you’re in broil mode. The only time the bottom heating element turns on, I thought it was broken at first. The only time

⏹️ ▶️ John the bottom heating element turns on is when you’re in bake mode. And I don’t understand that at all. Like if I want to toast, I want both sides

⏹️ ▶️ John of the bread toasted. How are you gonna toast both sides of the bread if you just turn on the top element? So it makes it super slow and it’s stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you like it. This is my least favorite toaster because it’s really small, it’s really slow, it ticks

⏹️ ▶️ John and it does something dumb. I didn’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the chance to test this, but I’m thinking

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe if I put it on bake at 450, it would toast bread faster than if I put it on toast.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, and of course you have to turn it on to exactly the right spot, which is, you know, very fuzzy or whatever. So big thumbs down

⏹️ ▶️ John on this toaster. I had high hopes given just the specs and the size, but it just does too

⏹️ ▶️ John many things wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ♪ Syracuse on Toast ♪ ♪ Reviews all day, every single

⏹️ ▶️ Casey day ♪ ♪ Here we talk

⏹️ ▶️ John about toast ♪ And I’m whisked away Four slice capacity

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve got to be kidding me like you know that cinnamon raisin bread that pepper farm sells

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You

⏹️ ▶️ John know that comes in a little plastic bag and it’s pre-sliced. Yep You know how small those slices are

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think you could fit four of them in here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Could you fit four melba toasts in here for what?

⏹️ ▶️ John probably Uh, but no it is it is a ridiculous toaster

⏹️ ▶️ John for this price I would have to see the price of the two knob Black and Decker one because the two knob Black and Decker one

⏹️ ▶️ John was way Better and just a little bit bigger And it was similarly featured two knobs

⏹️ ▶️ John turned to the right thing or whatever, but it just did the job better It toasted actually toasted stuff like I would I could never wait for this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing to toast something and when it was done It would just have toasted at the top. So Do not buy this toaster.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, thanks a lot to cards against humanity for sponsoring this week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right That was exciting I love those.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Speaking of exciting, John, one of your favorite albums

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is available again. Well, it never really wasn’t available. But half

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the internet has written us to inform us that the Journey soundtrack is available on vinyl.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So are you picking a copy up?

⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone should have been writing to you, because you might be excited about it. Why

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey would I be excited about it?

⏹️ ▶️ John I have the Journey soundtrack in a digital form.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Actually, I do as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah and I would never want it on a record because A I don’t have anything to play it on and B why would I want that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Why?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You mean you don’t want things to be less convenient, scratchy, less reliable over time, bigger and also sound

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worse? No.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yes, yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe like the, their picture discs, they look kind of cool and the album cover

⏹️ ▶️ John is kind of cool art wise but I do also have the Journey Art books I feel like I have the Journey Artwork stuff covered.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s at best a poster and at worst a trinket.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep. I mean, it’s like maybe a kind of a neat collectible thing, but I would never play it or anything. But,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, Casey might like it. He would get them and bring them to your dad’s fancy turntable, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s the thing, is I was going to remind the internet, who seems to forget so often, that I actually do not own

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a turntable. And I think that people seem to forget that. Just because I fancy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey turntables, and just because I think that the tea ceremony is fun, and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey won’t say whether or not I think they sound better, but I actually do not own a turntable. And of course,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anytime anything happens, even vaguely related to vinyl, half the internet comes to remind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me either that vinyl is terrible or, oh, ha ha, look, people are actually buying vinyl. You’re all fricking crazy,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey et cetera, et cetera. Um, but no, I actually do not own a turntable and I’d like to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one at some point, but I don’t have one. So I’m not going to be buying this either. And if I did, just like you said, John, I’d be bringing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it to dads to listen to it there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Out of curiosity, what was the Journey soundtrack, uh, originally recorded onto an analog

⏹️ ▶️ Marco medium and then kept analog through its entire editing and mastering process? Oh surely not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. It is recordings of people playing instruments so it started off

⏹️ ▶️ John analog in that respect.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay so it isn’t purely you know an electronic music soundtrack okay but yeah see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t mind people who like vinyl I just mind when they start saying it sounds better Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it sounds different and by almost every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual like objective measure it sounds worse but it does sound different in some ways it can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be more pleasing to people or can it can bring back fond memories of the past

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s why it’s popular. None of those things are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our evidence to tell people that it just sounds better. Well

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s popular now because it’s retro like That’s why that’s why you know the quote-unquote hipsters like it because

⏹️ ▶️ John it is Because they’re they don’t have any nostalgic probably they were really want to live, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know The parents didn’t play record albums for them when they were young,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco but it is a

⏹️ ▶️ John retro thing. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, there is there is effectively no Technical merit for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There are lots of other reasons to enjoy it But you just any technical argument

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is is not founded in reality

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are you done? I think so for today. I so deeply regret bringing this up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we should probably bring up WWDC tickets and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how that turned out. We’ve been asked several times. I have not knowingly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey replied to anyone on Twitter. I didn’t know what the group of us wanted to do, if we wanted to make it a surprise

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or we wanted to share. We have concluded we would like to share. So John, are you going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to go to WWDC?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I entered the WWDC ticket lottery and I did not get a ticket in the lottery

⏹️ ▶️ John and I am not going without a ticket. So there you have it. If I don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John a ticket, I’m not going right now. I am not going. I still have my hotel booked because it’s easy to cancel up to 24

⏹️ ▶️ John hours before, but I do not have any flights booked and I’m not going without a ticket. So I’m kind of bummed

⏹️ ▶️ John by that. And I was especially bummed hearing all the other people who did get tickets in the lottery.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Those people may or may not include Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did in fact get a ticket in the lottery.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which is extremely exciting. And I actually did as well, which I’m very excited about. And I am

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very, very sad, John, that you did not get a ticket. I really wish that all three of us did.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And who knows, maybe the WWDC ferry will sprinkle a ticket on you some way, somehow.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But yeah, that is the situation. So for those of you who had asked, that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey deal. Any other thoughts on that from the two of you?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s pretty good. Like two out of three, two out of the three hosts got tickets in the lottery. That’s that seems pretty good

⏹️ ▶️ John in the grand scheme of things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it does seem like I mean, last year, there was as you mentioned last time, there was a system

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last year where you could enter from multiple developer accounts. And you could enter if you weren’t really that sure if you wanted to go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just wanted to see maybe Oh, maybe I’ll get it get the opportunity to buy a ticket. year you had to like commit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to buy one and they would charge you to give it to you. Oh, we should

⏹️ ▶️ John talk about that too because that is heartbreaking for the people who won the lottery

⏹️ ▶️ John and Apple tried to charge their card.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh yeah. And didn’t and got the

⏹️ ▶️ John charge. The charge didn’t work because their credit card company like flagged it as fraud or whatever. And in many cases

⏹️ ▶️ John immediately called the people and said, hey, some company just tried to charge your card $1600.

⏹️ ▶️ John We blocked it. Do you want to let the charge through? And they’d be like, yes, yes, let the charge through. But it was too late. Apple didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John moved on and gave their ticket to someone else. I’m pretty sure that didn’t happen to me, but that would have just broken

⏹️ ▶️ John my heart even more.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. To Marco’s point, I know that happened to Swilliams and he was, he handled it much better

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than I would have, but he was pretty upset about it. I would have been just fricking devastated. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey funny because I don’t remember if I told the story on the show, but suffice it to say during the registration process,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even though I didn’t read the part where it says, oh, you’ll, you’re going to be insta-charged. if you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey win, I did read something which I couldn’t find when I went back to look for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I feel like it was during the process of registering that I saw it. But anyway, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, you should probably warn your bank that this is going to happen because we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are reserving the right to just punt you if your card is declined. And so I saw

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that and I immediately called Bank of America. And yes, before you write me, I understand that you hate Bank

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of America and they screwed you. I get it. Bank of America sucks, vinyl sucks. I know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is not the year of Casey, apparently.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an all-out attack on Casey right now. It is. Wait till we talk about the white shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God. So anyway, so I called Bank of America, and this is actually the first

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not-awesome experience I’ve had with—second not-awesome experience I’ve had with Bank of America. And I called them and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, hey, you know, I’d like to pre-authorize this charge, so it goes through, blah, blah, blah. And they said, that’s lovely, but we don’t pre-authorize

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things. Okay. Now, it turned out that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did win the lottery. I did get Insta-charged and it did go through, which was slightly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey surprising because just a couple of years ago, I don’t remember which one it was, I did have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the WWDC ticket declined originally. I think this might have been the last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey year of the Mad Rush. No, I’m sorry, the next to last year of the Mad Rush. And they called

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me and said, do you want this? Yes, yes, for the love of God, let it go through. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I was scared this year, but apparently it all worked out. But for Williams, we had talked

⏹️ ▶️ Casey briefly, he and I, and I believe he said he had pretty much instantly, just like Marco was there, money, you said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had instantly said, yes, let the charge through. And Apple had already moved on. It was already too late. Tough nogies.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that, I understand that, but gosh, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John stinky, man. I don’t know. I don’t understand that. I say, you know, give it a window of

⏹️ ▶️ John time, maybe even 24 hours. It’s like it doesn’t need to all. It’s not as if there’s a race for

⏹️ ▶️ John this all to be settled. Like we need to have all the tickets given to someone. And it’s like if they won the lottery

⏹️ ▶️ John and they got picked, give it 24 hours for the charge to go through. I think that’s reasonable, something like that, because

⏹️ ▶️ John moving on immediately is just, you know, because I didn’t, you know, I didn’t call to preauthorize. I’m pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John sure that wasn’t the problem. Like I never saw any charges on the card and never get any calls about about any charges being

⏹️ ▶️ John read. I just didn’t win the lottery period, right? But if I did, I would be super upset. Like, that’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t feel like that’s a great way to do this, because again, it’s not like they were in a rush, like 24

⏹️ ▶️ John hours is fine. And for those people who won the lottery and then lost it, man, I mean, I guess it makes

⏹️ ▶️ John someone else happy because their ticket went to somebody else who previously wouldn’t have won the lottery, but it’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ John boy,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a bummer. It’s a pretty crappy way to lose. And yeah, you know, what Casey said, you know, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did warn you on the pigs during the buying process, They told you this is what would

⏹️ ▶️ John happen just because they say that doesn’t mean there’s anything you can do to stop the stupid credit Card company sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John you can call them and say please just please let this through and they’ll be like either We can’t do this or be like oh, yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John sure we’ll totally have it through and they’ll reject it anyway Like it’s not like there’s a human there approving this charge. It’s just a bunch of algorithms.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know like Maybe you’re picking the wrong card like I may change which card is attached to my

⏹️ ▶️ John like Apple ID to one that gets used more frequently so that this charge wouldn’t look so strange on

⏹️ ▶️ John it or whatever. Anyway, save that for next year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say that was the one aspect of this that didn’t feel fair. The rest of it felt very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fair, very nicely run, it was executed well. The whole rest of it I thought was great, but the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco credit card fraud thing, I think that was the one part that is just kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crappy for people. And it happened to a lot of people, it wasn’t just Williams. I heard from a lot of people who it happened to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s really unfortunate.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It really is. And you know, even though I said I understand it, as John was talking, I was thinking, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they told pretty much everyone, what was it, this past Friday, is that correct?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. You could have left a 24-hour grace period for them to register and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey still had time, if it didn’t work out, to give other people the ticket and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey still made it by the promised time of 5 in the evening on Monday Pacific

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time. So it is a major bummer and God do I feel terrible for Swilliams and the other people who had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this happen to them. But I agree with you Marco that all told and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like to think I would say this even if I didn’t get a ticket. This was probably about as fair

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as they could have made it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like I said for Swilliams and people who got like it just feels bad because you know that happened. But the bottom line is

⏹️ ▶️ John his ticket went to somebody else who otherwise wouldn’t have gotten one. So that person it’s in the end it is simply

⏹️ ▶️ John a random distribution of people. It’s just this little bit of non-randomness and like, oh, if you got rejected,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, it’s as if some participants never could have won, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also would say that it does seem just totally anecdotally,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does seem like a larger proportion of people who applied got them this year than last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year, indicating that the whole multiple submissions thing from last year versus this year’s commission

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or committing thing seems to have helped.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like, I would love to know what are the odds of two out of three of us getting it because I feel like they did not

⏹️ ▶️ John give tickets to two-thirds of the applicants.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s true. I don’t know. Also, a real-time follow-up from Deckert. He

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or she said, there’s no such thing as a pre-authorization, only an authorization. An authorization needs a payee.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then they continued, and this is interesting. Here’s how Apple could do it better. In the WWDC app, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey perhaps, you know, in the store app, let people do an Apple Pay to authorize the payment and then only

⏹️ ▶️ Casey commit the transaction if and only if they win the lottery.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s what I was saying last week was what we would do in running e-commerce. You do an auth for the amount

⏹️ ▶️ John at the time they do the thing, but you don’t do the settle part of it where you actually take the money from them. Like auth doesn’t do

⏹️ ▶️ John anything. It just says, yes, you’re authorized to pay this amount to this, but like do the testing at that point. You’d still be in the same

⏹️ ▶️ John situation of like when you’re clicking through the thing. If they tried to do the auth and they got rejected and then your credit card company called

⏹️ ▶️ John you, like what would have been happening then? Would you still be in the flow of clicking through? Would it send you back to the page or

⏹️ ▶️ John would it just be like, sorry, we tried to authorize it and we couldn’t. Now you can never go through this process again.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I mean, it’s you have to think about what their goals are, but this is they’re tweaking

⏹️ ▶️ John the system. Hopefully they’ll tweak it again next year. Maybe some people were saying in the chat room, the people

⏹️ ▶️ John whose card got charged and then got rejected and then didn’t get a ticket. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John they have some recourse to say, look, Apple, I won the lottery, but my card got denied and

⏹️ ▶️ John I approved it. Is there anything you can do? I don’t know. I haven’t heard about anybody successfully doing that who

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t get their or take it because their card was rejected. But anyway, we can’t all be winners.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s life.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow. That’s super chipper. And then a final bit of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey follow-up, just to remind everyone that ATP shirts are indeed available.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There have been a lot of people who have already bought them, which we are all extremely thankful for,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that is very kind of all of you. Marco or John, I’m not sure which one of you happens to have this up, But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you want to talk about, speaking of shaming Casey, do you want to talk about what the breakdown

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is of shirts thus far?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, sure. I mean, so you can go into campaigns, you can see this is not private information. If you just go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to each one of the campaigns, you can see how many we’ve sold. And so the regular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shirt, the middle one, we’ve sold about 600. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sport, we’ve sold 216. And the edition, we’ve sold 108.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What’s interesting, and the reason why I think Apple made the Apple Watch Edition, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that even though we have sold roughly a sixth as many editions as we’ve sold the regular ones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s making almost half the profit compared to the regular ones. So, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why the edition exists in the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Watch lineup, I’m pretty sure. Well, and the edition is much more than, like, our edition is twice the price

⏹️ ▶️ John of the shirt. The Apple Watch Edition is more than twice the price of the Apple Watch. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John by a lot. Yeah, it’s, yeah. So we don’t know what’s going to do their demand curve. Like at a certain point it starts that you

⏹️ ▶️ John get diminishing returns. But yeah, apparently a lot of people are willing to pay $50 for a t-shirt with gold colored

⏹️ ▶️ John foil on it. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we could have, the reason we didn’t charge more, I got a couple of people saying you should have charged more and we thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about it for the joke value. I think it would have been funnier if we charged more. But the reason we didn’t is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we knew some people would buy it. And I didn’t want to be responsible for somebody having spent like $100

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or $200 on a t-shirt. Yeah, like we would be doing it like,

⏹️ ▶️ John how high can we price it? Like, would it be funny to price it so high that we know nobody’s gonna buy it? Or like the

⏹️ ▶️ John three people would buy it? And bottom line, I’m gonna buy one

⏹️ ▶️ John of these edition things too. I’m gonna buy one for my wife. So I’m buying my own stupid $50 t-shirt myself.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I bought two, yep, one for me, one for Tiff, and one each of the regular, the shirt edition

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well. Or not the edition, the collection. God, these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John terms.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the loser shirt out of this, You gave the breakdowns for ATP shirt,

⏹️ ▶️ John ATP shirt sport, and ATP shirt edition. But remember that ATP shirt sport comes in two different

⏹️ ▶️ John styles that have two different ink colors on it. And that Teespring requires two separate campaigns if you have two

⏹️ ▶️ John different ink colors. So ATP shirt sport comes in blue for a men’s version and white for

⏹️ ▶️ John a women’s version. And the white women’s ATP shirt sport has sold a grand total of

⏹️ ▶️ John three. And for the first few days it sold zero. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it sold zero for a

⏹️ ▶️ John long time. Is it because it’s white and people don’t like white?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Is it because

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of women don’t want an ATP shirt or don’t listen to the show?

⏹️ ▶️ John We I don’t think we can get a breakdown. There’s women’s versions of all the other shirts as well. I don’t think we can get a breakdown

⏹️ ▶️ John of how many of those are sold. Maybe when it’s over we can find out but yeah, that white

⏹️ ▶️ John sport shirt is just not popular.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It has sold three which means

⏹️ ▶️ John that they’re going to print it because I think three is the minimum. So the people the three lonely people who ordered the white women’s shirt,

⏹️ ▶️ John you will get your shirts, but boy, not a good seller.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so here’s the thing, kids. If you want to continue to encourage Marco to think that he’s always right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about everything, don’t buy white shirts. But if you’d like Marco to be taken down a peg,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do me a favor. Do all of us a favor. Buy yourself a white shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s a white women’s shirt, by the way. So feel free to buy it. You don’t have to be a woman to buy it, but be aware of what you’re buying.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is great. Our site is hosted on Squarespace. Can’t say enough good things about Squarespace for both making

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco really should. Trust me, it is so much better than trying to set up a CMS yourself, or especially

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we put off for the last week or two, but the time has come,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we should probably talk about photos for OS 10.

⏹️ ▶️ John I realized listening to last week’s show that we keep talking about photos. And we mean the

⏹️ ▶️ John application whose name is photos, that also happens to deal with photos. And you know

⏹️ ▶️ John when I’m saying it sometimes I’m saying it with a capital P. Sometimes we’re saying it with a lowercase p. It’s another

⏹️ ▶️ John great name from the company that brought you the mail application that’s called mail.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the notes

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco application that’s called notes. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John calendar application that’s called calendar. And yes so on and so forth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’d be like naming a magazine the magazine.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah seriously.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Who among us has been using photos for anything other than launching the empty the application with nothing

⏹️ ▶️ John in it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have Casey. Nope. Really? You have you, have you, have you imported anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into it? No, nope, nope. And I have not touched it. Every time it comes up, when I put in like my SD card for my camera,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I immediately quit and walk away. Well, so you have launched it though. Then, well, it’s launched itself. I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey knowingly done it. Um, the reason I haven’t touched it is because I’ve heard just barely enough horror

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stories that I don’t want to go anywhere near it, and I suspect that the horror stories are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one in a million. I suspect that in some but not all cases it was user

⏹️ ▶️ Casey error. But actually just earlier today, Stephen Hackett was talking to all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us about how he was having some problems with it. And yes, I could back up everything 35

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more times, but it’s just, this is not a problem that I have in my life that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feel like photos should or could solve.

⏹️ ▶️ John So what are you using instead then?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I, in terms of backup, I have photos on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my personal machine. I have them duplicated to the Synology and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey also Time Machine and Crash Plan and PictureLife. And so between

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of those things, I have it, I hope, pretty well covered. And I freaking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey love PictureLife. It’s very much like EverPix was before it passed away. Let it rest in peace.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Picture life does everything I think I need so I’m going to be listening

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very intently no sarcasm intended Because I would be curious to hear what photos would do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that picture life wouldn’t do for me

⏹️ ▶️ John So you just have the pictures in folders and there’s no Mac Mac application.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s correct So how do you like look at your after you take your pictures on your camera you plug your camera into your computer? It

⏹️ ▶️ John slurps them all down into the whatever picture life, but like do you get to see them or do anything with them?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so the workflow is I put the SD card in the computer, I go through and I don’t, it’s extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rare that I do any sort of post-processing, but I’ll go through and I’ll delete the ones that I know are just crap.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll delete any raw files that I think I’ll never need again and will inevitably regret having deleted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then I will run them through a script that I tweaked that Dr. Drang wrote

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that will file them into folders by year, then month,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then rename the files so they’re named by entire date, including timestamp.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The only other thing I’ll do that’s even vaguely like post-processing is I have some scripts, which I believe I again

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stole from Dr. Drang, that will add geolocation information to them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But basically what I do is I go through them, delete the ones I don’t want, add geotags if I need

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to, and then have the script slurp them and file them away, and then Picture life automatically finds them and uploads

⏹️ ▶️ Casey them.

⏹️ ▶️ John So when do you look at them? Do you look at them after after picture life pulls them up? Do you open the picture life app

⏹️ ▶️ John on your phone or something or go to the website or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no? I mean I could but generally speaking I look at them as I’m going through all of them to see which ones I want which ones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t want.

⏹️ ▶️ John What do you mean as you’re going through it like in the finder? Yeah using quick quick look to look at them. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John right. I mean, geez.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I guess I guess it’ll work. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not saying this is the right way of doing things. And please, I don’t, I’m not looking for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any answers other than this app. So whatever you’re going to recommend, I appreciate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. But it’s okay. I’m okay the way it is. But I am curious to hear what photos

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would do for me. And I’m not saying you won’t. I’m not saying that sarcastically. I mean that genuinely. I’m curious to hear what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey photos would do for me to make this experience better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, it really depends a lot on like how you want to browse your photos. I mean for me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my big problem that I’ve always had with photo apps is that you had to choose

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like good performance, good editing controls,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and integration with iOS devices. And you had to choose between those things and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco couldn’t have all three of those. You could have at most two. You know, kind of like the project management triangle. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could have at most two. And photos actually hits all three and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is the first thing to have good iOS integration. iPhoto and Aperture never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did. PhotoStream was never good. PhotoStream was always like a half solution

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was almost dangerous in how much it didn’t cover and how it didn’t work.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco PhotoStream was just a nightmare of confusion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and misled expectations of how it worked and what it did and what it didn’t do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the solution, you know, both, but the photo app, we’ll talk about the app separately in a second, but just the whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco concept of like, the photos in the cloud thing, I think that, this is like the cloud photo service

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we have been begging Apple to make, because we knew that no one else could really have the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco integration into iOS devices the way Apple does. And we’ve been begging Apple to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make this for years, and we all thought they never would. And then they did. And it seems like the cloud

⏹️ ▶️ Marco component, actually works pretty well. I mean, you know, I too have heard a couple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of horror stories here and there, but it sounds like the problem is not in the cloud necessarily.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s either like, you know, Stephen’s story sounds like the app corrupted itself a little bit, its local database.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think so. I’ve heard a couple of people who said that the import didn’t import some large

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chunk of their files, and those are both serious problems for sure, but those are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very unlikely to be cloud-related. So, I think it’s safe to say so far with what we’ve seen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So far, it looks like the cloud part of this is quite good, actually.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It seems to be working. It’s all built on Azure and Amazon Web Services and stuff, as far as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we know, so it should scale properly. It should scale okay. I mean, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already tons of people importing massive back catalogs of photos into it, all within the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last couple of weeks, so within a short time. It seems to be doing pretty well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So overall it seems that the cloud part is fine. It seems like the cloud part works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s impressive That’s a that’s a very very impressive accomplishment right there. We’ll talk about the pricing in a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit, but it Functionally it seems like the cloud part works the app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is you know certainly up for debate? I would say this is definitely not a replacement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for aperture Though the way that Apple kind of wedged it wedges

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and say oh well we’re going to stop working on Aputure now even though we were kind of never really working on it that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much but we’re going to stop working on it for real this time and and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know that that’s less good for Aputure users. I’m coming from Lightroom and I used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use Aputure and then before that I used iPhoto and what I thought what I always wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in iPhoto is and is just like the nice simple management that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I photo I never I never wanted the really complicated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like filing system and management and keywording and everything. I never wanted that part of what Aputure offered

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or Lightroom. I really just wanted iPhoto with better editing controls

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s what this is. That’s what it feels like a total rewrite of iPhoto

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the new generation of everything. It’s like iPhoto X you know like or 10 or however

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you pronounce it for software like this that’s not the operating system. It does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feel like that it’s the modern version of iPhoto with really good editing controls

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it does things that I wouldn’t have guessed they would have done. Like for example it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is doing lossless editing on those adjustments and then it syncs the adjustment values to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your iOS devices so you can like adjust the brightness on one device and then you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like go to a different device and keep adjusting the brightness and it’s it’s based on the same base image. It isn’t like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco baking it into the image or making a copy and doing that. It’s doing it properly. It’s doing what you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would want it to do. So from all that perspective, this seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly what I wanted. I’ve used it very little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so far. I imported my whole library, but I’ve done very little editing in it. I browsed a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit. The browsing interface is nice. I have some wish list items here and there for different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco views or sorting options or whatever, but for the part it’s minor stuff. Overall, I’m pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco impressed with it. It seems like they took a very big problem that nobody has fully

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solved and solved it in exactly the way that is probably going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best for me at least and probably a lot of other people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So are you going to ever give it a shot you think or are you going to wait a long time if ever?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I’m going to wait between a medium and a long time. I did hear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I heard a couple of horror stories, which were like twelfth hand information about large deletions

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that happened. Again, when you have as many customers as Apple does, this is inevitably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to happen. No software is perfect, but especially since I’m a new dad,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and even though I have all my photos and what did I say, quadruplicate or whatever? I just, I really,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m scared to mess with, to mess with this stuff. And additionally,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the things that I’ve made a critical part of my workflow,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is what I described earlier by tagging, where geotagging all my pictures that are taken with my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Micro Four Thirds camera. Part of the reason I’ve done that is because Picture Life does a really good job

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of allowing you to search for photos by location. And I believe it was on Connected that they said that that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It isn’t possible to geotag pictures today with the Photos app, I don’t think. Obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve not used it, so this is me going out on a limb, but I believe that’s what they said.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s right, but I mean, again, this is a 1.0, really. It is officially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the next version of iPhoto and Averager, but really it’s a 1.0. It feels like a total ground-up rewrite.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it would not surprise me if things like that. And it will obey geotags that are already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco embedded in the files, but you modify them afterwards. And that’s the kind of thing I can see them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco changing later, adding a feature later. So that’s not a huge deal for me. And also,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the photos I shoot are with my iPhone anyway, so it’s already geotagged. So again, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco depends on how you use it. And one thing I like about it from a paranoia perspective

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is when we first heard about this app almost a year ago, I’d say we just see last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco year, when we first heard about it, we talked about on the show and and I had expressed a concern of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know I don’t want I don’t want the only copies the only master copies to be in the cloud

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want I want a local app that just has files sitting in the file system that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can then back up and I can restore if necessary or adjust and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what this offers it is very similar to iPhoto in that it has a package

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is just a directory. It has a package that in inside that package of its database

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is just all your files and and they’re not organized in any particular useful way, but they’re all there and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you ever had to reorganize them, you could you could organize them by by their exit dates and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’d be fine. So that is all there. I imported things into it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by dumping a bunch of files on it. There’s nothing saying I couldn’t do the same thing again. If I ever had to like start fresh, if there’s something ever got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco corrupted, I had to like delete all of photos from iCloud and start over again, it looks like I’d

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be able to do that just fine with my regular backup system that I have and I have this Mac sitting here with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the files on it. It also gives me, you know, the options it has for reducing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco local disk space usage. That is really interesting from a backup perspective because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could, for instance, have a Mac Mini in your house somewhere, in your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco closet, or somewhere at work that has enough disk space on it that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could have that be a second client and have that back up your entire library to itself and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe on your main computer if you get a new computer with an SSD in it that maybe you don’t maybe you don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco space for all your photos or you don’t want to buy the terabyte SSD for a thousand bucks or whatever then maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can have your main computer not have all the originals on it and you have some other some other Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is logged in and is backed up in its own way like with backblaze or whatever have that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco logged in and be backed up somewhere else that can have a big, slow disk in it and have that not be part of your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco main computer anymore. I can see that especially being helpful for laptop users. So the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco options this gives you for geeks like us who want control over the files are actually pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I am impressed by them. And one of the things that makes me want to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey try it as much as I am very reticent to do so is I’m probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to be upgrading my three or four-year-old um, personal machine, which is a 15

⏹️ ▶️ Casey inch retina Mac MacBook Pro or not right now, excuse me, 15 inch high-res MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, I’m looking at upgrading that to probably a new 15 inch machine. Sometime soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this thing has, I think, a 750 gig hard drive in it, and I don’t have an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey overabundance of free space on it. And that’s in part because I have all 118 gigs of photos and videos as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey per picture life on it. And it does sound

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really awesome to be able to buy a computer that maybe doesn’t have a tremendous

⏹️ ▶️ Casey SSD in it, yet still have access to all my photos as though they were there. And I would choose

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a strategy, much like what you’re saying, Marco, I’d probably leave the one I have today, downloading all of them and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey operating as a backup, and then have my main machine just grab whatever one’s photo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sees fit. So in terms of what they’re promising, it genuinely does sound really, really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good. and I am very impressed by it. I don’t know. Do we want to talk about pricing or John, you’ve been very quiet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you have thoughts about this?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I was just listening to what you guys were doing. I think I talked about this before,

⏹️ ▶️ John like that I was going to be cautious about this. I didn’t install any of the betas. I didn’t enable iCloud photo

⏹️ ▶️ John library when that was in beta in iOS or anything like that. I just stayed away from it. But

⏹️ ▶️ John when all the reviews came out for the photos app, I read all of them and talked to some of the people who wrote

⏹️ ▶️ John them and asked questions and investigated and the thing that made me decide

⏹️ ▶️ John to, when the official version was released, to dive in and do it and import my

⏹️ ▶️ John real library was the way that it does the imports. If you have an existing iPhoto library,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will, like I have an existing iPhoto library, it’s on an external 500 gig SSD.

⏹️ ▶️ John The library itself is around 260, 270 gigs.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t duplicate that library and still fit on the disk, but the way it does it if you have an existing libraries, it doesn’t duplicate the files,

⏹️ ▶️ John it just makes hard links to all the files, which does not increase the disk space for them,

⏹️ ▶️ John it just references them. And once you do that, once you do a full import, A, it should go faster

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s not actually copying 260 gigs of memory, it’s just making a bunch of hard links and writing a bunch of metadata or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. And B, after you do that, you’ve got your iPhoto library still completely unmodified.

⏹️ ▶️ John You could launch iPhoto and it would still just be right there. And you’ve got your photos library, which in the beginning is an

⏹️ ▶️ John exact copy your iPhoto library with some other caveats I’ll get to in a little bit.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then if you start using photos you will slowly diverge. The photos library will start

⏹️ ▶️ John changing, you’ll add new photos to it, you’ll make modifications. Those modifications won’t be reflected in the iPhoto library.

⏹️ ▶️ John If I was to go back in time and modify a picture from three years ago it would I would get a private

⏹️ ▶️ John copy. It’s copy on write. I would get a private copy in the photos library. So the way this is done, the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have to double my disk space, that I can start from where I left off in iPhotos and that I could

⏹️ ▶️ John essentially bail at any time just sort of I would like export the photos that I imported

⏹️ ▶️ John into the photos app after the transfer process and then throw away the photos library

⏹️ ▶️ John and then just re-import those into iPhoto if I wanted to go back but what Casey doesn’t have to deal

⏹️ ▶️ John with but what I have to deal with is the idea that you know iPhoto is gone, iPhoto is dead.

⏹️ ▶️ John I used iPhoto since its introduction as my way to to deal with photos with a couple of brief side trips into aperture when

⏹️ ▶️ John it could read dry photo library and stuff and I looked at Lightroom and stuff like that but

⏹️ ▶️ John I have an investment in this in this program and metadata and everything and if it’s dead I need to get

⏹️ ▶️ John on the thing that that is going to replace it and sooner is better than later and I have a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of problems with LivePhoto it’s just it it is really on its last legs so I was hoping that photos

⏹️ ▶️ John would solve these problems for me so I did the import it was a little bit weird because is what it initially does

⏹️ ▶️ John it wants to make a new photos library and it wants to make it on my main disk and that’s no good

⏹️ ▶️ John because this is on the MacBook Air and it’s got a tiny little SSD in it so I had to dissuade it

⏹️ ▶️ John from you know I had to make it open a new library delete the little library that it made and then I had

⏹️ ▶️ John to make the the second library like you launch with the option key down and pick a different library I had to make that the quote-unquote

⏹️ ▶️ John system library because if you don’t do that then all of your photo stream stuff will only go into the system library

⏹️ ▶️ John so for a little while I had like my external library on the external drive but the system library was that

⏹️ ▶️ John new little empty one that’s where all the streams are going so that was a little bit confusing I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not confusing like I could figure out what was going on but I figure if someone else was using this they would be confused about why they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not getting anyway maybe they wanted to have multiple drives but bottom line is I could get it to the point where I wanted it

⏹️ ▶️ John I imported my library which took a really really really long time way longer than I thought it should take if since

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not actually copying the data and during it it’s like while you wait Why not

⏹️ ▶️ John take a tour of the photos application? And there’s no way in hell I was clicking that thing to take a tour of the board. It’s like, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not touching this computer until

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s done importing. I didn’t want to do

⏹️ ▶️ John anything to perturb the program. I don’t know what kind of slideshow introduction thing it’s going to do.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that is the last thing I want is that to crash the app once in the middle of my import. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did you open any other windows?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No, I just

⏹️ ▶️ John like, just let it sit there. And it took just a tremendous amount of time. This is not uploading to iCloud. Forget about iCloud. This is just merely

⏹️ ▶️ John like importing my photos library. It was like 67,000 photos or something 260 270 gigs there are some videos

⏹️ ▶️ John mixed in there, but not too many

⏹️ ▶️ John So I let it do all that and Then the next thing was like if there’s settings that Marco was talking about you can say

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you want me to keep all the photos on your Mac? Yes, I definitely did because it’s the whole point like I want them to be there I want to get backed

⏹️ ▶️ John up and all that other stuff The interesting thing that was the time machine

⏹️ ▶️ John I think was smart enough enough. Not to like time machine knows that they’re hard links, it understands them or whatever. So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not as if time machines like, Oh, my goodness, I have 260 new gigs to backup. No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John it just you know, the, the use space on my external desk did not grow up, go up by that

⏹️ ▶️ John much. It just had like its little database and the metadata and stuff and then the photos as they were. So the time machine backup caught

⏹️ ▶️ John up pretty quickly. And turn on the iCloud

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. Of course, I had to buy more iCloud storage and we’ll talk about storage pricing a little bit. I did that I bought enough storage to fit

⏹️ ▶️ John all my stuff, which is I bought 500 gigs of storage. And I let it upload

⏹️ ▶️ John and the uploading is a weird like it shows a progress bar on the preferences window. But every time I

⏹️ ▶️ John launched a preferences window, the progress bar started from zero kind of and the other part of it that was that wasn’t in

⏹️ ▶️ John the preferences window said uploading, you know, x 1000 photos in the beginning, it said uploading 67,000

⏹️ ▶️ John photos, and the number would go down, and then it would say uploading 50,000 uploading 49,000. Like that’s a weird way to show

⏹️ ▶️ John progress. I understand what it’s getting at but what’s wrong with a progress bar guys? Like you know

⏹️ ▶️ John if you didn’t know that it started at 60,000 you wouldn’t know you were half dumb when it said uploading 30,000. Anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John took like two days to upload all my photos it was not using all of my connection and this has been a big

⏹️ ▶️ John complaint with people who have smaller upload pipes that the photos app will just use as

⏹️ ▶️ John much upload bandwidth as you have and like if you saturate your upload bandwidth it makes your experience doing anything

⏹️ ▶️ John else really miserable. There is an option in preferences to say stop uploading

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like pause for a day is the only button but like that’s not a great option if it’s noon and the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is destroying your upload pipe and you do pause for a day all you’ve done is scheduled for it to destroy upload pipe tomorrow

⏹️ ▶️ John at noon. Again I didn’t have that problem because it was not using my entire upload pipe not

⏹️ ▶️ John even close so they have like 35 megabits up and it was maybe using two three or four I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know I guess I could figure it out took about 48 hours to go. It was not even. Sometimes it went really fast, sometimes it went slow.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve heard from people who have looked at the traffic going over the wire that it was uploading directly to

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon S3. Like, not going to Apple servers, it was going to, you know, something S3 dot

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon dot com. Which is fine, I don’t care where the hell it is, like, as long as it’s uploaded somewhere, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t need to know the implementation details for people wondering. I have heard reports of that, but I didn’t check it myself.

⏹️ ▶️ John After it uploaded everything I had to look at like what has it done to my iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John library because I put a lot of time into my photo library I talked about my rating system and my key wording

⏹️ ▶️ John you know I keyword for people in my family I do ratings as a series of filtering

⏹️ ▶️ John three stars or higher or the good ones anything below that is bad one star is usually should be deleted

⏹️ ▶️ John very few four and five stars

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not surprised

⏹️ ▶️ John at all me neither it’s a it’s exactly the same thing I do for iTunes. It’s more of a thresholding

⏹️ ▶️ John system. Like, you know, I want to see like what are the good photos. If, for example, we’re making a calendar, which we do,

⏹️ ▶️ John like we use those websites let you make a calendar with pictures of your family on it, right? I immediately go to

⏹️ ▶️ John pictures from last year, three stars or more. Those are like the good ones. Like those are the ones even worth looking at.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then the one star is periodically when I get space tight I just go let me show, let me see all the one stars and I’ll delete them. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John Photos doesn’t do that. Photos has favorite or not favorite. A favorite uses is a star, not

⏹️ ▶️ John favorite has no star. So it is a very binary filtering system, which is kind of in keeping with how I was using

⏹️ ▶️ John it, like the three star was the threshold. So how the hell does it import my library where they’re all rated?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it still has keywords and it makes a one star keyword to one

⏹️ ▶️ John space star to space star, those are keywords. And it puts keywords on all my one,

⏹️ ▶️ John two and three star rated ones, which is fine, because then it still lets me sort by one, two and three star, but now I have to make

⏹️ ▶️ John a choice. I could continue rating them one, two and three star by using the one, two, three, four and five star keywords,

⏹️ ▶️ John or I could just abandon that and just go with the favoring system. I’ve decided that I’m just going to go forward and use

⏹️ ▶️ John it the favoring system. So what I basically did was took anything that is three, four or five stars and put a put

⏹️ ▶️ John a an official photos fave on it. And that’s what I’m going to do going forward. Now I’ll leave

⏹️ ▶️ John the the keyword ratings on all the other ones, but I’m not gonna try to maintain my

⏹️ ▶️ John one through five, which means I won’t really have a good way to, I guess I could still label the one star ones one star if I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ John but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you should just

⏹️ ▶️ John delete them yeah I mean that’s what basically I do like there aren’t really many one stars in there like one star means like it’s out

⏹️ ▶️ John of focus or something and they eventually get deleted so there’s not really many of them hanging around like when I go through I basically delete all

⏹️ ▶️ John the one star or I decide to upgrade one of the two I think well it’s not that bad or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John so the import went okay some of my smart albums didn’t quite work because some of the smart albums like

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t have you know to do like nested logic like where you can make a smart thing and then have another

⏹️ ▶️ John thing references another smart thing it It doesn’t have like nested boolean logic. It just has one level of logic. And some of my smart albums didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John work because the logic required a feature that only existed in iPhoto. So I lost a little bit, but

⏹️ ▶️ John my manual albums worked and my simple smart albums were ported over correctly. The faces were more or less ported over

⏹️ ▶️ John the keywords. So that went okay. The upload went okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John But here’s where the rubber really hits the road with this app. The problem I had

⏹️ ▶️ John with iPhoto was that, basically came down to at this point performance

⏹️ ▶️ John in all aspects of performance. The app took a year and a day to launch. You’d launch it. This

⏹️ ▶️ John is also not all SSD you keep in mind. This is a very fast external SSD connected with Firewire 800

⏹️ ▶️ John or an internal SSD. Didn’t matter. Took forever to launch. You’d sit there and see a spinner

⏹️ ▶️ John for a long time might as well just go away come back later. Once it launched pretty much everything you did in the

⏹️ ▶️ John app was slow. Scrolling was slow. The thing I most commonly do is basically So you plug in a

⏹️ ▶️ John camera, import photos. After I import photos, I want to go through them

⏹️ ▶️ John and rate them and keyword them or whatever, basically just to look at them. Go to full screen mode, because I figured that’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be easier on the application. Full screen, you don’t have to worry about anything else. Use the arrow key to advance from one photo to the next.

⏹️ ▶️ John Use keyboard shortcuts to rate them and stuff like that. That workflow,

⏹️ ▶️ John right arrow, command R to rotate, command two, command three, command four to rate,

⏹️ ▶️ John right arrow, was just so incredibly sluggish. Like super slow, going into full screen mode

⏹️ ▶️ John was slow. Hitting the right arrow to go to the next photo seemed like it took a seven second delay sometimes. It’s like, what

⏹️ ▶️ John are you even doing? Sometimes the photo would come in and it was still blurry and then it would put in the full res. Super slow, so I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John like, everyone says photos is great, it should be way faster. Keywording, like I do Command 1, Command 2, Command 3,

⏹️ ▶️ John or you can only keyword if you weren’t in full screen mode and you had the keyword palette available and then you do single keystrokes

⏹️ ▶️ John of like F for family and like you’d select a bunch of photos, you’d click one, Shift click on another,

⏹️ ▶️ John hit F for family and like three seconds later the UI would catch up with you like oh you shift click okay I’ll select

⏹️ ▶️ John this range oh I’ll make a little keyword thing flash on the screen it just felt like molasses so this is

⏹️ ▶️ John what I was hoping photos aside from all the cloud stuff I was hoping that it would help the workflow of like the

⏹️ ▶️ John things that I do import photos go through them rate them keyword them or just go through them and browse

⏹️ ▶️ John and I guess scrolling but I do a little bit less scrolling so I set everything

⏹️ ▶️ John up in photos and one One of the first things I did was grab the little scroll bar and scrolled up and down. That works alright.

⏹️ ▶️ John 67,000 photos, you don’t expect it to be that fast. Keep in mind this is a 2011 MacBook Air with 4 gigs of RAM so that

⏹️ ▶️ John probably doesn’t help much. Oh my gosh, yeah. But it did alright. Like, I’m willing

⏹️ ▶️ John to give it a pass for things that I think a lack of RAM explains.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I imported some photos into it and the importing was a little bit weird and confusing and the UI

⏹️ ▶️ John is not great of like, you know, I had to bring the sidebar back to see my camera but it mounted as a no name

⏹️ ▶️ John card thing and whatever like it was difficult for me to find some stuff. It’s a very sparse UI but it’s a 1.0

⏹️ ▶️ John imported all the photos go into full screen mode and then just start trying to do right arrow rate

⏹️ ▶️ John keyword right arrow keyword still slow and I don’t understand why it’s so slow. I’m just there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John one photo on the screen. I’m going to fit the hit the right arrow key I want you to show me the next photo. I don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ John you to keep every single one of my photos in memory. I don’t I don’t think the lack of RAM is making that slow, but something

⏹️ ▶️ John is, and I just want it to be snappy. And I assume that it is snappy if you have 10 photos or a thousand

⏹️ ▶️ John or even 10,000. I don’t know where the threshold is where this app just

⏹️ ▶️ John starts to fall down, but whatever it is, I’m past it. So is it worse than iPhoto? No, it’s not worse than iPhoto

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of performance. It’s probably a little bit better. Launching still takes a long time. Doing all those actions that I was

⏹️ ▶️ John describing still take a long time. Maybe, maybe keywording is actually slower in photos than it was.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, click one photo, shift click onto the next one, label for my kid’s name or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe that’s actually slower in photos, but it’s close-ish. So I did not get the big performance

⏹️ ▶️ John boost that I was hoping. Again, this is a 1.0. Maybe it’s a RAM limit. Maybe I should actually try it on my Mac that

⏹️ ▶️ John has 16 gigs of RAM and see if it does any better.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that aspect of it is kind of a wash. But I feel relatively okay with the safety of the things, again, because

⏹️ ▶️ John my entire iPhoto library’s still there, still being backed up. and my photos library slowly diverging from it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have for now not been deleting the camera, the pictures off my camera when I import them. So I have like yet another

⏹️ ▶️ John backup, like if I have a catastrophe, I still have my old iPhoto library and I can just re-import everything from my camera.

⏹️ ▶️ John At a certain point, my card on my camera will fill up, so I’ll have to revisit that. But you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’d say so far, so okay for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the experience of using

⏹️ ▶️ John it. And the cloud sync stuff, that’s the other part that people are complaining about. So this is my wife’s

⏹️ ▶️ John computer. versus the photo computer. That brings up the next big problem, which is like, they haven’t really solved the photo problem because

⏹️ ▶️ John the larger problem is, we have photos that belong to our family. Like the 67,000 photos,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not my photos, they’re not my wife’s photos, they’re not my children’s photos, they’re our photos, collectively. We

⏹️ ▶️ John have a family set up in, you know, the Apple iCloud family thing or whatever. But

⏹️ ▶️ John to do this photos thing, we have to pick an Apple ID. So it’s my wife’s Apple ID,

⏹️ ▶️ John she’s signed into her Apple ID on her phone, obviously, because it’s her phone, and this is her computer and she’s logged into her

⏹️ ▶️ John account. So when we imported this thing and turned on the iCloud photo library, the 500 gigs of iCloud storage, that’s her

⏹️ ▶️ John storage, right? Which means on her phone, she has access to all 67,000 photos, which is amazing, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Obviously they’re not all on the phone, it does all the storage stuff, yada, yada, but it’s pretty amazing that you can, you know, in theory,

⏹️ ▶️ John scroll back to, you know, the early 2000s or the 90s and just tap on a photo and eventually it will download and you can see

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Love it, great, right? I can’t see any of those photos in my phone, even though they’re just as much my photos

⏹️ ▶️ John as her photos, right? There’s no way to sort of share the entire

⏹️ ▶️ John photo library with the family. Now there is a family section where anything you put in that album is shared with anybody in your family

⏹️ ▶️ John group, but there’s no way to automatically share the entire library. You have to manually add things stuff to the

⏹️ ▶️ John family collection. Of course, you can make a shared photo stream and sign up individual people to it, but there’s no way to basically say

⏹️ ▶️ John this is the family’s photo library. I want everyone to see it. Apple has not solved that problem yet or tackled

⏹️ ▶️ John it. They’ve only made it so that you can share subsets of photos manually with different groups of people which is great it’s good that you can do

⏹️ ▶️ John that we use that all the time to share pictures with relatives but it’s not like I’m going to manually drag every

⏹️ ▶️ John every single photo in my library into the family thing and then manually drag every new thing into there because then I would

⏹️ ▶️ John have because I have my own iPhoto library on my Mac which has nothing in it and on my phone

⏹️ ▶️ John so when if I take a picture with my phone it shows up in my photo library not in the family one and it’s just not working the way

⏹️ ▶️ John we want it to work conceptually I want there to be one big pool of photos that belong to the family and maybe separate pools for individuals.

⏹️ ▶️ John Eventually, the kids will want their own separate pools and won’t want to mingle with ours. But for my wife and I,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we all our photos share one big pool. So it’s kind of a shame that I don’t have access

⏹️ ▶️ John to all of our family’s photos on my phone. And she does. But the flip side of that is she has access to all of

⏹️ ▶️ John our photos on her phone, which means when she brings up the photo picker in any iOS application, 10 to 15

⏹️ ▶️ John second wait before

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the photo

⏹️ ▶️ John picker comes up. So it’s not just you know, I tried it in Apple Mail, I tried it in Twitterific, it is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a per application thing. You bring up that photo picker, time it 10 to 15 seconds.

⏹️ ▶️ John Every time. Second time it takes just as long. Once it comes up it’s a little slow, but

⏹️ ▶️ John you know again it’s amazing you have access to 67,000 photos, but it’s you know

⏹️ ▶️ John we are at the limits of what this thing can handle. It’s kind of amazing that it does it and it doesn’t crash, but on the other hand it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re going to do this, I don’t know what you can do maybe just like Only let the

⏹️ ▶️ John photo picker see the last four or five years and then have it like I don’t know what you have to do To make that picker

⏹️ ▶️ John come up sooner. Like I understand the problems inherent in this but it is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a Great experience and the final thing I want to say about the cloud syncing here is that Marco was talking about? well, you know get another

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac have that do your cloud sync and have it keep all your photos within and your Your main smaller

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac have it just optimize storage and not keep all of them there are. Just as raid is not a backup.

⏹️ ▶️ John I cloud photosync is not a backup because if something if you do something bad, those changes

⏹️ ▶️ John will rapidly cascade to all your servers that are doing this cloud sync and it will dutifully delete every single photo

⏹️ ▶️ John you deleted from like so if you accidentally delete a huge amount of photos, it will delete them everywhere. It will delete them off your phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will delete them off your backup Mac Mini it will delete probably before you can race into the other room and yank the ethernet cable out of the back

⏹️ ▶️ John of that Mac Mini, it will have deleted a hell of a lot of those pictures. So iCloud photosync

⏹️ ▶️ John is not a backup. You need actual backups. And not only do you need actual backups, you need backups

⏹️ ▶️ John like time machine style backups that don’t just do disk clones. You need disk clones too, just to, you know, and

⏹️ ▶️ John cloud backups, but you need something that keeps older versions of things. Because it is very easy

⏹️ ▶️ John to have a catastrophic cloud thing that goes wrong that causes a runaway, you know, that’s the type of bug you can have, causes

⏹️ ▶️ John a runaway deletion of thousands of photos. And that deletion will sync if Apple, you know, if Apple does

⏹️ ▶️ John its job well, will sync all your devices everywhere before you can do anything about it. And if

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t notice and like 15 minutes later your backup systems run automatically backup everything

⏹️ ▶️ John and your backups aren’t like incremental date type backups like if you have a super duper clone

⏹️ ▶️ John the super duper clone will delete well it will clone your drive as it exists now with the deleted photos and those photos will

⏹️ ▶️ John be gone. So in this cloud connected world you have to be very aware of what kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John data loss changes will automatically be pushed out to all of my quote-unquote backups.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I’m very leery of that and I’m really trying to keep that

⏹️ ▶️ John in mind when I may have a backup strategy. And I have to admit part of my backup strategy

⏹️ ▶️ John is I’m never going to delete my iPhoto library. Like it will always be there. I’ll probably never modify those things. At the very

⏹️ ▶️ John least all those photos will be, you know, as safe as they could possibly be sitting on HFS Plus where we have

⏹️ ▶️ John no idea what the contents of the files actually are. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Um, and I try

⏹️ ▶️ John and speaking of the hard links, I try desperately not to think about the implementation of hard links, which

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I know they

⏹️ ▶️ John can go read my old, uh, OS 10 articles about it. Like hard links were

⏹️ ▶️ John grafted on day to rest plus. And the way it does it is it puts a special file in a special hidden

⏹️ ▶️ John directory and there’s only one of those directories. And if you know, you don’t, may not know much about file systems, but.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sort of kind of gut feeling. If you make a single directory and you just keep putting files in there at

⏹️ ▶️ John a a certain point, hundreds of files, thousands of files, how many files can you put in a single directory? Not nested

⏹️ ▶️ John in subfolders, but just flat in a single directory before the file system gets cranky. Yes, it uses B

⏹️ ▶️ John trees or B plus trees or whatever. Wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s doing? There’s a hidden directory, and in that hidden directory is a single file for every hard link on your disk.

⏹️ ▶️ John No wonder your photos app is so much slower than mine. I mean, just think about Time Machine. I mean, Time Machine is just

⏹️ ▶️ John full of hard links, but you know, photos,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think there’s your answer, because I have twenty seven. Let me see yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have twenty six thousand photos, so about about you know half to a third of what you have, but my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco performance is amazing. It flies. I didn’t do it on an iPhoto import at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all, because I was using Lightroom before, so I was I literally I copied

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know my directory is the file that the photos nice. I copied them over to the NAS to to to back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it up to kind of like save it, and then I just copied them all into into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new photos app and delete the originals. So it has it has things arranged the way it wants them arranged.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I mean, this hasn’t arranged. It’s not once you make the hard links, it’s fine. I’m just like, I’m leery of having

⏹️ ▶️ John that many files in a single directory. I don’t think the fact that I have a bunch of hard links is causing my performance problems. Because once you make

⏹️ ▶️ John them like reading one file is the same as reading any other for any other file. This is just the sort of linking

⏹️ ▶️ John one set of data to another it’s on a per file basis, especially since like, it’s not like it’s reading the files on

⏹️ ▶️ John disk when I’m like scrolling through them or whatever it’s you know, thumbnails or whatever crazy database it’s doing. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John once it’s up and running, I think the difference we’re experiencing has to do with two things. One, your computer is way faster than mine. And

⏹️ ▶️ John two, you have way fewer photos. So it would be kind of a fun experiment to

⏹️ ▶️ John triple triple the size of your library and see how that performs. You know, like I because I really think there is a threshold

⏹️ ▶️ John because it was I photo there definitely was I thought it was fine for many, many years. And once I started pushing up into

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it was around the mid 40s, maybe into the 50s, it started to be like, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John uncle, like, no, that’s it. You know, it still did the job, but every operation

⏹️ ▶️ John and like, I’m more picky about this than most people. Like, I don’t want to wait for the computer.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve told the story many times of like when I had my original Mac and the Mac plus the Mac, I

⏹️ ▶️ John see 30 and stuff that I would use the computer and you would do things like double click a folder in the finder and it would do this

⏹️ ▶️ John animation where it would show like the outline of the new window that’s going to open expanding into place, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Same thing with dialogue boxes and stuff like that. I would have the cursor waiting

⏹️ ▶️ John on the section of the screen where I knew the the close box or the OK button

⏹️ ▶️ John or the next folder I wanted was eventually going to appear when the thing finished redrawing it. And I’d know how much

⏹️ ▶️ John of it needed to be drawn before I could click and have the click register into the window that’s about to appear like

⏹️ ▶️ John it. You know, it just felt like I was just waiting forever for everything to happen. It’s like, yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John Draw your stuff. Okay, drawing, drawing, drawing. Just enough of it is drawn. Now I can click move the mouse to the next position. Okay,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco waiting for the

⏹️ ▶️ John dialogue. Like that’s my experience of using a computer and it hasn’t changed much as I’ve gotten older. If anything, I’ve gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John more cranky about it. And like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco with the iPhone, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like you’re showing a series of pictures. You have phenomenal computing power

⏹️ ▶️ John compared to the computers I used as a kid. I just want to hit the right arrow key and I want you to show me the next picture

⏹️ ▶️ John immediately at full res as soon as I hit the key. I don’t think I’m asking for a lot. It’s full

⏹️ ▶️ John screen mode. There’s only one picture on the screen at once. There is not a giant grid of 60,000 photos. It is full

⏹️ ▶️ John screen, one picture, hit the next arrow, show me the next picture. Can I add a rating?

⏹️ ▶️ John Can I add a keyword? Do that immediately. Give me some visual feedback that it has been done.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t, maybe write it to your metadata database in an async thread. Like I don’t, whatever it is

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s making it slow. It’s making me sad. I have some hope that, you know, computer

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware will get faster, faster than my photo library grows, and you know, as the kids

⏹️ ▶️ John get older you take fewer pictures of them and everything, but I’m never going to delete many more of these pictures,

⏹️ ▶️ John like most of the one stars are gone, so I’m thinking by the time these kids go to college I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ John to have a six digit number of photos and I really hope Apple software can keep up with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And by the way, this is a perfect example of a very, very common task

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that people do on their computers that will kill a laptop’s battery. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is using tons of resources. You’re reading tons of little files off the disk.

⏹️ ▶️ John The face recognition thing running in the background, that alone will destroy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Yeah, and not to mention all the resizing operations of thousands of photos. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a big computational job. And if you’re browsing through photos and applying some light adjustments

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here and there, even just, what you said, just browsing them at full size. Well, importing is a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I feel like there’s a lot of upfront work, especially with the import. Like that’s why I gave it a chance, like let it settle

⏹️ ▶️ John down. It did the import, let it do all the faces, let it make all its thumbnails. Like I feel like you should

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to get the library into a steady state where like, I’m not adding any photos. I have not added any photos to this library for a week.

⏹️ ▶️ John The app has been running, like it’s the only app running on the system. Is anything in it fast?

⏹️ ▶️ John And the answer is no, it’s not. It’s just not. Forget about adding new photos. Obviously every time you add new photos, it’s gotta parse them all, it’s gotta

⏹️ ▶️ John make the thumbnails, it’s gotta read the metadata, put it into its database, It’s got to do the face recognition. Like I

⏹️ ▶️ John understand that’s always going to be grinding away when it’s doing that. Things are going to be slow, but I feel like in a steady

⏹️ ▶️ John state, simple operations should be fast and they’re just not with a library my size on my particular

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware, which is a 2011 MacBook Air with four gigs of RAM.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, that that could be a big part of the problem. I mean, that’s not a great answer to that question, but that that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might be a big part of the problem. I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, I hope that the SSDs would be a thing like that’s why I bought an external SSD. It’s you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John these are fast SSDs. The internal one is not great, but like, you know, forget about on a spinning disc.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would just it’d be useless.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is a little bit of homework that one of us did. Mm-hmm. ♪ I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can do that too. ♪ But would you like to tell us, that person,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about pricing of photos as compared to Dropbox and whatever else

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we looked at?

⏹️ ▶️ John So this is another thing about Apple’s photo solution. They, you know, if you want to use their cloud backup,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you don’t have to, by the way, you can just have them on your local disk and it works like iPhoto. You can do that, you don’t have to pay any

⏹️ ▶️ John extra money for it or whatever, which is great. I’m glad they gave that option, But part of the reason I was doing it is I wanted to do the online

⏹️ ▶️ John sync option. And to do that, you have to buy storage. And so you get five gigs free with an iCloud with

⏹️ ▶️ John an Apple ID, right? You can get 20 gigs for a dollar a month, 200 gigs for $4 a month, 500 gigs for $10

⏹️ ▶️ John a month, and a terabyte for $20 a month. And those

⏹️ ▶️ John prices are vastly improved over what they used to be. But unfortunately, the rest of the competition is

⏹️ ▶️ John way better. So Dropbox is about half the price. It’ll give you a terabyte for 10 bucks

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of half a terabyte for 10 bucks like Apple will. Dropbox only gives you 2 gigs for free but you can refer people

⏹️ ▶️ John to get a little bit there or whatever. Amazon Cloud Drive gives you unlimited photos

⏹️ ▶️ John and 5 gigabytes of video for $12 a year. So forget about a month. Unlimited photos, $12 a year plus 5

⏹️ ▶️ John gigs of videos. You can have unlimited everything, unlimited photos

⏹️ ▶️ John and unlimited video for $60 a year. I guess it’s kind of good when S3 is your thing and you don’t have to pay Amazon for S3

⏹️ ▶️ John because you are Amazon.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, to be fair, they probably

⏹️ ▶️ John aren’t operating that in a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco massive profit margin.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s the Amazon way. But whatever, Amazon Cloud Drive, ridiculously less expensive. Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John OneDrive gives you 15 gigs for free, which is three times more than Apple gives you for free. 100 gigs for $2

⏹️ ▶️ John a month, 200 gigs for $4 a month, which exactly matches Apple, one terabyte

⏹️ ▶️ John for $7 a month. So $7 versus 20. So their pricing is roundabout,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, in the 200 gig range, it’s the same as Apple’s. But when you go to one terabyte, $7 a month versus $20

⏹️ ▶️ John a month, Microsoft is definitely winning there. In case you just put in information for picture life, which is 25 gigs for $5 a month, 100

⏹️ ▶️ John gigs for $10 a month and unlimited for 15. So again, another unlimited thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon gives you unlimited way cheaper than Apple picture life gives you unlimited also cheaper than Apple. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ John what are you getting with the Apple thing? Like Marco said, integration with all your iOS devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the only solution that I’m aware of that has complete integration with the actual

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple photo library lots of these things have their own iOS app or whatever and I guess with with you know Sharing

⏹️ ▶️ John extensions you can get to the stuff but so many iOS apps bring up a picture picker They let

⏹️ ▶️ John you pick from your photo library, which is the Apple photo library So you are paying for that integration,

⏹️ ▶️ John but Apple storage pricing is not not that great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but but I would say, you know based on like what it is where it is integrated how it’s integrated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how it’s even presented to you I I would say you’re not gonna be seeing a lot of people doing comparison shopping.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re not gonna be seeing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like-

⏹️ ▶️ John No, that’s true. I just like that. I think it’s the ones that really, I think, are hurt Apple’s competitiveness,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially after they just changed the prices. The ones that hurt are the unlimited ones because that’s like a different ball

⏹️ ▶️ John game. It’s like, we’re no longer haggling over the price. I know you’re not gonna compare, but knowing that there are unlimited

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff out there, that’s like, well, these are a bunch of pricing tiers, but I’ve heard

⏹️ ▶️ John one of them is unlimited unlimited for you know, $20 a month versus $12 a year.

⏹️ ▶️ John One is unlimited, one is not. And the unlimited one is the cheaper one. God, that’s got that’s really got

⏹️ ▶️ John to hurt. So I feel like Apple still needs to adjust its prices. You’re right, people aren’t going to comparison shop for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re going to be cranky when they realize, especially if they’re upgrading and they have like a 201 gig

⏹️ ▶️ John library, and they realize that they make $10 a month, like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s more than I pay for

⏹️ ▶️ John Netflix, wait a second, right? You get the integration, it’s nice. I think people should still definitely do it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it It is the best, easiest point and shoot solution for people with photos, especially if you don’t have a lot of them, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I really wish the performance was better and I hope that Apple keeps up the pricing and feels

⏹️ ▶️ John some pressure to be competitive because right now they’re not particularly competitive on storage pricing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but at the same time, it’s within the realm of reason and it depends. Again,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it depends a lot on how big your library is because of the tiered system. You’re right. one example,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, you’re going to pay for 500 if you need to a one I need I need like 280.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m paying for 500. And

⏹️ ▶️ John even like the nickel and diming like their tiers are spread like everyone else is just like small and then one terabyte

⏹️ ▶️ John or unlimited like you know, like picture life 25 100 unlimited Microsoft 1500 200 one terabyte like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that Apple Apple has a smoother gradation, but it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John one terabyte is basically any reasonable person type thing but paying $20 a month like $15

⏹️ ▶️ John months unlimited on picture life like I don’t think it makes that big of a difference. The bottom line is I would pay double these prices

⏹️ ▶️ John for storage if it had two things the ability to handle my library with much better performance

⏹️ ▶️ John and the ability to share photos in my family in the way that I want because it frustrates me that only my

⏹️ ▶️ John wife has access to all of our photos on her phone and I don’t have them on my phone and I will never have them on

⏹️ ▶️ John my phone because Apple has no solution for that, you know, unless we’re gonna make a giant share. We’re gonna drag

⏹️ ▶️ John every single photo into the family library and I imagine that would probably not perform particularly well

⏹️ ▶️ John so I’m not even gonna try that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well we’ll see. I mean it was only, wasn’t it only last year that they introduced family plans? Was that just last year?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah I mean that’s why the feature is there. Like it’s confusing. People I see like, I didn’t make an album called family, what the hell is this?

⏹️ ▶️ John Anything you put in that album is automatically appears in the photo libraries of people who are

⏹️ ▶️ John in your family like you know in the family that you set up and you you know in the assembly review you can

⏹️ ▶️ John read about the whole family thing like I love that you can set up a family and I like they’ve added features to have an awareness of it

⏹️ ▶️ John it just doesn’t quite work the way that I want it to work with my family I don’t think the way I want it should be the default or like

⏹️ ▶️ John the only way to work with it but this particular way I think is a common way where like the mom and

⏹️ ▶️ John the dad want to see all the photos and every photo they take they both want to go into this library

⏹️ ▶️ John like that’s I think that’s a reasonable way to handle photos Where as it stands now

⏹️ ▶️ John any photo my wife takes with our phone goes into our family photo library any photo that I take with My phone is stranded in this

⏹️ ▶️ John weird island over on a Mac Pro and then I have to somehow get it over there And I don’t have access to any of the photos that she takes

⏹️ ▶️ John or any of the photos in her library unless she manually drags Them into the shared thing that we the shared

⏹️ ▶️ John family library or a photo stream that we share

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is almost as though every I device is an island

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John God, no, I life is an island was the title, I believe that hypercritical

⏹️ ▶️ John episode, which Casey will put into the show notes once his computer dries out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So John is saying that and I apologize if you’ve heard some clanging and whatnot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the background,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco but I leave that in.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, you might as well. Real time follow up. I’ve just poured half a glass of water

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Aaron’s MacBook Air. Oh no, it’s hers. Yes, because it’s the one without the screaming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fans. So the good news is it wasn’t soda. So hopefully this will last

⏹️ ▶️ Casey long enough to finish the episode and then God knows what the hell I’ll do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple will know what it has been tampered with. The little watery things inside of it are right now or

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco changing color or whatever the hell they do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You were just talking about how you’re gonna replace yours like imminently. Oh man, that’s terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s about time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Not for that one though, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, but it’s about time that I’ve done this. Isn’t that one like only a year old? Yeah, pretty much. I bought this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly because she was using my ancient Polybook. Hi, Stephen Hackett.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sorry, I’m multitasking here and drying off my desk. I was using, or she was using my ancient Polybook, which wasn’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey working anymore, and so I got her this MacBook Air and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey started to commandeer it for the shows because it doesn’t have a screaming fan on like every other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computer I have. So, yes, and I accidentally just dumped, well, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a third of a, what is a normal beer glass, a pint? Is that right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it’s vague, yeah. It’s probably, you probably dumped about four to five ounces of water

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey on it, I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I immediately flipped it upside down, so hopefully that was some of the clattering you’ve heard.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But yeah, we’ll see what happens. Oh, Aaron’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kill you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh yeah, you have no idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’ll be deserved.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could spill water into, not your computer, her computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh yeah. Thankfully I am the Tina of this relationship, title, insofar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as I am the keeper of all of the data, but yeah, this is not, this is no bueno. Well, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have a backup solution,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I assume.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and this thing is also backed up to the Synology, I thought, last I looked. I’m afraid to touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything now. You might wanna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco verify that tonight.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because usually the way this works is it’ll work fine for a little while, and then it’ll start getting flaky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and weird, and then it’ll just stop. Like, that’ll usually happen over the span of days.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, this is no good. It’s no good, kids,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no good at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh man, that sucks. I feel bad laughing, it’s really uncomfortable and unfortunate.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, yep, yep, I’m just mopping up all the water from my desk. Luckily, it was with such force that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hopefully only but an ounce or so actually landed on the keyboard, but I should take a picture

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the pile of paper towels that I have now put on the floor.

⏹️ ▶️ John So where is your drink in relation to your computer that this was even possible. John, I refuse to answer

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that question.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was like, this is the key to, if you do not want to spill liquid on your computer, here’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the key to doing it. Do not have a glass of liquid anywhere that if it tips over, the water can get to

⏹️ ▶️ John your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computer. Oh, is that the idea, John? Where were you 20 minutes ago? I

⏹️ ▶️ John have a glass next to me right now. I reach out and take drinks from it all the time during the podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is on a lower level than my desk,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and if it spilled,

⏹️ ▶️ John there is no way that the water could get either to the top of my desk or way over to my Mac Pro, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John on the floor far away from it. Like, there’s not enough water for that to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco An alternate solution is to either use a desktop or when using a laptop, have it up on a stand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something. So that way, if water covers your whole desk, it doesn’t really, you know, it might kill a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a keyboard, maybe. You can still

⏹️ ▶️ John splash onto the keyboard. Like, if the height of your cup is higher than the thing on the stand, it’s close.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, if I had an extra hand, I would take a picture of myself talking into the microphone whilst holding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the laptop upside down, so hopefully any water.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And flipping us off?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, I’m flipping myself off if such a thing were possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If it was possible, you’d be the person to figure out how to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s true, God, this has not been my evening, kids. Oh, jeez. This is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco terrible. So what do you think about the iCloud photo pricing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t, what are we talking about?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Is this the show?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is this what people tuned in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco for? Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so sorry. Ah, it’s all right, did it to myself, kids. Did it to myself. Let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco wrap up. Yeah, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think we should fast forward to the after show as quickly as possible. So whenever we end, there’s a prayer that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can get my side of the recording.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my god. Well, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Squarespace,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Jackthreads, and we will see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cause it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ John at And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can follow them them at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S so that’s Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s accidental, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John mean to Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco God oh man no you’re probably okay for the next few minutes at least but yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I Would I would start making it start? Start convincing yourself that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna have to possibly be okay with replacing this computer in the next month or two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Possibly the next week, but most likely the next month or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much water

⏹️ ▶️ John are we talking about here?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. It was, again, it was a pint glass that I had. I think it was about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two-thirds empty or one-third. That’s a statement about my point of view, isn’t it? It was two-thirds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey empty. It was one-third full is what I meant to say.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I whacked it in so it kind of, the glass was immediately

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the right of the computer. I’m sorry, John. And the glass kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey flew on top of the computer which is good in this case and so I would guess between one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and two ounces probably spilled out. Directly onto the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John part?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well yeah, I’m with Marco on this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh I’m screwed. See the worst part about this is that you might be out some money

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the second worst part about this is that you’re gonna get email from everybody over the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next few days saying if only you would have done my trick here’s my trick that works every time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or that worked for me once or that I heard worked for somebody’s uncle once you’re gonna be getting everybody’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John weird

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tips and tricks of yeah well I just put the whole computer in rice oh you didn’t do that immediately well you’re screwed but if you would have done immediately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would have fixed it like oh you’re gonna hear everything from everybody

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yep I can hardly wait

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sorry you should I should ask Mike how to fix it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh that’s cold But actually he didn’t fix it, did he? Nope. Maybe you shouldn’t ask Mike.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ask somebody else how to fix it. Thank you, underscore Chris, for that extremely useful piece of information. Hey, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is all caps, mind you. Hey, Casey, here’s my tip. Don’t spill your effing drink on your computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh! I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John realize that was the idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, well thank you so very much. I will take that into consideration and under consideration

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the future. Oh, this week is gonna suck.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I mean, it shouldn’t be that hard to dry it out. I mean Virginia has a pretty dry climate right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh totally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a lot of humidity there. No not a bit So bad for you right now

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s an innovation they could bring to the MacBook one 1.5 or whatever like as the

⏹️ ▶️ John you know We see the way the inside is computers look like right mostly just battery and an ever-shrinking part. That is the computer

⏹️ ▶️ John Probably this will come to the watch first But that part that is the computer as it gets smaller and smaller smaller, it starts to become

⏹️ ▶️ John feasible to sort of, especially if they’re fanless, it starts to become feasible to encase that in something,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Yeah, you know, have the heat transferred out to the rest of the case and all this stuff you do, but

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you can imagine making the insides of a

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook One sized laptop pretty water resistant. Like, and the little S1 thing looks like it already

⏹️ ▶️ John might be, and maybe, like I said, that’s where it’ll come first, is they, but you know, as they get smaller and smaller and smaller,

⏹️ ▶️ John it starts to become feasible I think to weatherproof those guts just because there’s so few

⏹️ ▶️ John of them and they’re less sensitive like the you know especially in the fanless models that you if you just

⏹️ ▶️ John have metal kind of like a sealed metal thing where there’s contact good contact and thermal transfer

⏹️ ▶️ John why can’t it be a little bit more resilient to water than laptops currently are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean if you look at the iPhone line though like if any any amount of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good reason why you should to make something water resistant applies way more to an iPhone than to a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook for the most part.

⏹️ ▶️ John The way they do it with the phones, at least from the Samsung ones, is they don’t try to

⏹️ ▶️ John seal the insides so much as they try to seal the outside, like the case. Make

⏹️ ▶️ John the case waterproof and then don’t worry about it on the inside. But like the S1 approach, at least in these little diagrams

⏹️ ▶️ John that we’ve seen, is like the S1 is always shown as like this little module that itself is encased in something.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think in the laptops you have more options because in the phones, your only option, I think, really is to try to seal

⏹️ ▶️ John the outer case, and that’s tough because that takes abuse, rather than saying, yeah, water will get inside the case, but once it gets in there, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John nothing you can do damage-wise because the entire guts are sealed up and the only weak point is where

⏹️ ▶️ John the battery connects, and we’ll try to make that a waterproof connector, but that, I think, would add thickness to the phone, but in a laptop,

⏹️ ▶️ John you get a little bit of leeway. We’re not there yet. Maybe three or four more gens. The next time

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple puts up a slide that says, look at how dramatically smaller we’ve made the motherboard, that time, then it’s like, all right, Now

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re getting to the point where you could actually seal that sucker up inside there and Make a more.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is kind of a shame This is a really expensive thing you happen to spill a little bit of water on it And what you said Marco is totally

⏹️ ▶️ John true the people like oh, I did it in rice It seemed like it was fine, and it started to get flaky And it’s just like it’s the worst kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of slow-motion death you wish you almost wish it was just dead and wouldn’t turn on anymore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, yeah, cuz it’s it’s like when a hard drive has like one bad sector It’s like you you know it’s only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna go downhill from there, but it might be a slow awkward painful thing and yeah That’s how this is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe it’ll just start kernel panicking more frequently over the next month and you don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s no way to really know. And then now any weird thing that ever happens on this computer again,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna ask yourself, oh, is it because I spilled water on it once? You’re never gonna trust

⏹️ ▶️ John it. It will be slowly corrupting the data on your disk and you won’t know because HFS Plus has no checksums.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh my God. You’ll load a photo from five years ago and half of it will be

⏹️ ▶️ John missing and it will be blue and sparkly colored. And the OS and the file system think everything

⏹️ ▶️ John is fine. It just read the bytes right off disk. This is what was there. Isn’t this what you originally wrote? We have no way to know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh God. Oh my God. What happens if this WWDC, you can’t go, which I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do not want to happen. I really hope you can make it some way, somehow. But let’s suppose you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go and they release a new file system and let’s go out on a really big limb

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or maybe small limb actually, and say it’s a file system you approve of. I know you’ll have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey plenty of other things to complain about, but what else will you complain about? Like what’s the next lowest hanging

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fruit?

⏹️ ▶️ John Realistically speaking, when they replace HMS Plus and it will happen eventually, I have very dim

⏹️ ▶️ John hopes that they will replace it with something that has data integrity. I think they’re much more likely to go for the other features

⏹️ ▶️ John like performance and copy and write and constant time snapshots.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there are many modern features that have more selling points

⏹️ ▶️ John and fewer downsides than data integrity. Data integrity, I just think, is the most

⏹️ ▶️ John important one. So I think if and when they do come out with a new file system, I fully expect

⏹️ ▶️ John to be disappointed in the new file system, even though it has a whole bunch of the modern cool features that I like, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t have the one feature that I think is essential, which is let me know that the data I wrote is the same data that’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John there five years from now. Mostly because that one feature is the biggest performance hit.

⏹️ ▶️ John that is the one that costs the most in performance. And I really hope I’m wrong about this. But if I had to

⏹️ ▶️ John choose, which would you rather have? All the whizzy cool features and better performance and snapshots

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that, or data integrity? I would pick data

⏹️ ▶️ Marco integrity. If you look at the reality of the world we live in today, the devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we use, how things are stored, where things are stored, the cloud’s role in all of this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could almost see if some project manager at Apple is trying to weigh the pros and cons

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here, You could almost see the argument of data integrity isn’t worth the cost because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the vast majority of our customers are using things like iOS devices, where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re not going to have one instance of a file system. They’re not going to have one phone using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco its file system for five years. They’re going to have… These things are all shorter lifespans.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they’re going to be backed up to iCloud, which will be managing the truth.

⏹️ ▶️ John Does iCloud use a file system that uses… Has data integrity checksums? I doubt it. I don’t think we know.

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does. Do the Linux EXT whatever’s, do they have it?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think so. Maybe BTRFS has

⏹️ ▶️ John it as an option. Some of them have it as an option not turned on, but like for the same reason, like data centers

⏹️ ▶️ John won’t want to turn on for the same reason because it costs CPU time and they’re all about, you know, CPU time is heat is money is

⏹️ ▶️ John air conditioning is like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco power, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know what I mean? Like, I just think we haven’t hit that inflection point where

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, in my mind we have, that it’s stupid not to do it, at least in

⏹️ ▶️ John situations where you really care about the data, but there are still countervailing forces that say, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John we didn’t really need to do it, and really data, the error rates are low, and blah, blah, blah, but

⏹️ ▶️ John the volumes of data are just so massive. It’s like hard drive failure, where it’s like, it’s not a big deal in an individual’s

⏹️ ▶️ John life, but if you’re backblaze, 15 hard drives fail a day, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco 20 hard drives fail a

⏹️ ▶️ John day, right? And so terabytes upon terabytes of data, as the storage capacity goes up, chances

⏹️ ▶️ John are almost 100% that you have a bit that slipped somewhere. Is it an important bit? Does it matter? Will it ever cause a problem? Probably

⏹️ ▶️ John not. But like, especially with the cloud stuff, one bummed

⏹️ ▶️ John device, one phone that is a little bit flaky, that, you know, who knows what was wrong with it, hit

⏹️ ▶️ John by a cosmic ray, and then that couple bit error that causes the bottom half of your wedding photo

⏹️ ▶️ John to be unreadable, gets transferred all over the cloud and dutifully replicated all over the place and you don’t notice until

⏹️ ▶️ John you see it next year and the original one is gone. And so that’s why data integrity is important. Someone’s gotta do

⏹️ ▶️ John it somewhere. I don’t know if it’s time for it to be done on my watch, on my phone. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s time for it to be done on my Mac. I really think it’s time to be done in data centers even though it costs more money. But

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s, in our lifetime, I think that’s a thing that we will look back on it as being barbaric.

⏹️ ▶️ John Also ECC RAM, while I’m complaining about things. Throw that in there, Apple. Seriously. You mean the lack of

⏹️ ▶️ John that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is barbaric? Yes. Yeah. I mean, and that’s, I think that’s more on Intel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than Apple. Cause it’s like the chipset has to support it. And I think only the Xeon chipsets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Intel stuff ever do.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a little bit more circuitry. It’s a little bit more expensive, but not doing it. Like ECC RAM

⏹️ ▶️ John is made more important by HFS plus not care. You know, like if you have some sort of accent a little bit flipping

⏹️ ▶️ John in RAM, hopefully if you’re dealing with file system data, you will notice that by like, oh, now

⏹️ ▶️ John that now the file has changed on disc when it shouldn’t have, or the bytes I read into RAM and not the same as the bytes on disc that

⏹️ ▶️ John check some is different. Like you just you need to have that a way to check whether your answer

⏹️ ▶️ John is right somewhere.

⏹️ ▶️ John So much for my bike thing. We’ll save it for next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When that when that pause happened, I looked up with like a panic in my eyes because I was like, like, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey god, already?