113: Get Your Ears Ready to Hear Me Complain
16 Apr 2015Watch minutia, ATP Shirt, WWDC tickets, and John ends his series of OS X reviews.
Episode Description:
- Donate to the EFF as a thanks for invalidating key claims of the "podcasting patent"
- Follow-up:
- There is no air gap in at least "most models" of the Apple Watch (via Jeremy Heberlein)
- What watches did we order?
- ATP is selling T-shirts again!
- Be sure to order before Wednesday, 6 May!
- Visit voiceover artist and clothier Matt Alexander's awesome company, Need.
- WWDC
- AltConf
- New ticketing rules
- Chargeback (please don't do this)
- John ends his series of OS X reviews
- Post-show:
- Photos
- Casey tries to avoid doing HTTP Basic Auth on his site
- John has thoughts about Casey's header
- John tries to buy a lamp
Sponsored by:
- Automatic: Your smart driving assistant. Get $20 off with this link.
- Backblaze: Online backup for $5/month. Native. Unlimited. Unthrottled. Uncomplicated. (Drive-failure blog post)
- Squarespace: A better web starts with your website. Use promo code ATP for 10% off. Engineers: Apply today to experience NYC.
Transcript start
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, sorry, you can go back to listening to the Dave Matthews that you were listening to that was so amazing, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly. Okay, so before you and I start a fistfight verbally.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco About jam bands and non-jam bands.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No just jam bands.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Jonathan Mann Okay, so we should…
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I tried so hard not to let myself fall into that trap and I couldn’t help it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was great. Okay, so we should start the show by mentioning
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some legal news and this interesting thing is I’m not kidding. So, Marco, would you like to tell us
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about the Electronic Frontier Foundation?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Mignone There was this podcast patent that everyone was talking about in the last couple of years.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Adam Carolla raised a bunch of money and actually challenged it because he was hit by a patent troll.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, the patent in question was from a company called Personal Audio. They were patent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco trolling the podcast world for quite some time, going after mostly the really big guys. The EFF raised
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bunch of money and stepped in and filed an official challenge to it and cited real prior
⏹️ ▶️ Marco art and actually got the patent invalidated. So this decision came through
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about a week ago, a couple days, something like that, and the EFF has succeeded
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in invalidating this patent that was really threatening all podcasts and podcasters and podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps and everything that deals with podcasts. So I wanted to at least, and I think we
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a whole, I think it speaks for all of of us to just thank the EFF for doing this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I would highly suggest to our listeners, the EFF does a lot of great, this is the Electronic Frontier
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Foundation, the EFF, they do a lot of really great stuff for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco technology, they’re a non-profit, right? I believe that’s right. And they are really, they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really fight the good fight on so many issues for tech. So I fully support the EFF and I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco urge you to, by going there and making a donation right now. So pause us, go make a donation to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco EFF. We will put the link in the show notes right at the top so you can see it, and they’re really great.
⏹️ ▶️ John Can I be the downer and say that the idea that the entire patent has been invalidated is almost
⏹️ ▶️ John certainly not entirely true? Like it’s probably like, well, the major
⏹️ ▶️ John claims involved in the patent have been, but then they can appeal and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, legally,
⏹️ ▶️ John so on and so forth. So like the fight continues, and this is but one aspect
⏹️ ▶️ John of, you know, There are a million stupid patents. I believe the fund that the EFF uses to fight
⏹️ ▶️ John these is like Mark Cuban’s Battle Against Stupid Patents fund
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann or something. It actually has the word
⏹️ ▶️ John they are fighting the good fight. And this is not the end of the fight, not even the end of the fight related to dumb podcasting
⏹️ ▶️ John patents, because I’m sure there’s a treasure trove of equally stupid patents. Or even this one may come back to
⏹️ ▶️ John life like a zombie. So.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, but this was a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big one. And this was one that was being actively sued with. And so this is pretty big news. and they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did, they not only filed to get key claims invalidated, they succeeded in getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco key claims invalidated. So that is pretty big news.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, this is excellent. So thanks to the EFF and like Marco said, please donate.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now with that taken care of, let’s talk some follow-ups. So John, do you wanna tell us about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the gap that may or may not exist on the Apple Watch?
⏹️ ▶️ John This was a topic on last week’s show, talking about the watch and I think it was Marco
⏹️ ▶️ John heard from somebody that had seen a watch and you could see the gap and he saw it in some of the videos and we discussed it as like
⏹️ ▶️ John a possible thing that they could improve on the future watches to possibly make it thinner and make it look
⏹️ ▶️ John more like it does in the carefully controlled beauty shots on Apple’s websites where it just looks like a black
⏹️ ▶️ John smooth surface that has the lights on it and you don’t see where the actual panel is inside there.
⏹️ ▶️ John And a lot of people wrote in to tell us that there is no air gap in there because if you watch a Johnny
⏹️ ▶️ John I video he says that the screen is laminated to the crystal this was Jeremy Herberline
⏹️ ▶️ John who sent this to us via Twitter and a couple other people said that if you watch the video he
⏹️ ▶️ John says some models or something have the screen laminated and I think who is
⏹️ ▶️ John this Marco in the note saying that uh maybe the air gap is only visible on the sport and
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it’s laminated on the edition and on the the watch version of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah because the claim is that most watch models have have a display that is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laminated directly to the sapphire crystal so that leaves room for the sport not to have it and also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the sport doesn’t have sapphire right that I think that’s probably pretty clear and it could also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be that the sport is still laminated just not to sapphire but that’s an awful that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an awfully like twisted sentence for Johnny I have to have said unnecessarily
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know like I I’m guessing that there actually is some kind of small gap or some kind of different process
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for making the screen with the Ion-X glass for the sport versus making the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco laminated sapphire one. And I tried, I went to the Apple store a couple times since
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the watch became visible there, and I tried
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seeing any difference between the two. And I couldn’t get a long enough look at them to really say for sure,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you are able to see at certain angles the outline,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rectangle of what the screen is versus what the whole front face is and it does kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ruin the illusion because the the entire UI is designed for for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything to go edge to edge to not have any margin like if you look at the iPhone UI there’s always some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco margin around the edges inside the screen area the watch everything’s designed with a black background
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they even say like go edge to edge please go edge to edge with all your stuff because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not a big enough screen that you can afford margin and the bezel around it or the bezel around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is is wide enough that that is that is like a good aesthetic margin
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that illusion is a little bit weakened if you’re able to see in real life like where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the edges of the screen actually are inside that that bezel so it’s it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is ideal if you can’t see
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah there’s two issues here with the air gap is like maybe the image doesn’t look like it’s on the surface
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like it’s sunken down and then independent of the air gap, regardless of whether it’s laminated or not, you have
⏹️ ▶️ John can I see the panel edges? And the panel edges just I’m assuming have to do with differences in the reflectiveness
⏹️ ▶️ John of the material that the panel is made out of and the area that doesn’t have a panel underneath it. So
⏹️ ▶️ John those are both things they can improve independently. If every single screen is laminated maybe they could, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John depending on the thickness of the material, get more of getting the image to look like it’s on the surface of the glass rather
⏹️ ▶️ John than deep down into the glass. And then the outline, I’m not sure what they can do about that I guess
⏹️ ▶️ John get a panel that is darker when light shines on it or try to put some material behind
⏹️ ▶️ John all the glass so it looks the same so you can’t see the edges but yeah the aesthetics and you can
⏹️ ▶️ John look at all the pictures that Apple takes they’re going for the idea this is just a magical curve
⏹️ ▶️ John black top thing and parts of it light up and you don’t need to know where the edges are and you
⏹️ ▶️ John shouldn’t know that for example the you know the 8 in the time is actually jammed up against
⏹️ ▶️ John the left edge of the screen in the top edge of the screen because you would never know that because where’s the edge of the screen green, right? And so that’s,
⏹️ ▶️ John that is a clever and economical use of screen real estate, but you really don’t want to see the
⏹️ ▶️ John fact that there are no margins, because if you can see the lighter gray rectangle, it makes that eight shoved up into the corner and not look
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, speaking of the watch, we should cover what we did or did not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey preorder on Friday. So let’s start with you, Marco. Did you wake
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up at three o’clock in the morning? And if so, or I guess whether or you did, did you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey order one or more watches?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I woke up at 2.58 in the morning and I kept hitting refresh in the app,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which really just means force quitting the app and relaunching it. This is the Apple Store app on iOS, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is in the last few launches, it has really been like the way to do it because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever API the app is pulling for information seems to be much more reliable or at least much simpler
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the Apple Web Store. And so the app very rarely has any kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of reliability issues during these big floods of pre-orders while the website
⏹️ ▶️ Marco regularly does. So the app is really… And the app, you can use Touch ID to pay, which is awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you have Apple Pay set up, you can just pick what you want. And you can even mark it as a favorite
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ahead of time. You just open up the app, go to your favorites, hit the thing, hit Add to Cart, hit Checkout,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you just thumbprint and it’s done. And it’s the fastest pre-order process you you can possibly have.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I definitely recommend that approach for pre-ordering. So anyway, I did that and I immediately,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the store didn’t come up for me until about 3.02, a couple minutes after three,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and immediately, as soon as I looked, the one I had picked out, which was the Black Leather
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Loop 42 with the steel watch, was already four to six weeks late. I really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanted something to come immediately for development reasons, I kind of have to, So, rather than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get a second watch, which would be stupid, I elected to change my order to the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only one of the steel ones that was still showing delivers, you know, April 24th
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to May whatever, like that first, the first delivery slot. The only one that had the first delivery slot was the 42
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Milanese loop. So I went with that. After trying them on in store, later that day,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I changed my opinion slightly of some of these things. Glad I didn’t get the leather loop because I really don’t like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco leather loop. I wrote a blog post about all this stuff. In fact, both of us did, Casey, so I won’t go too far into it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Suffice to say, the Leather Loop is not as soft or as comfortable or as convenient to use as I wanted.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I then ordered separately for, quote, May
⏹️ ▶️ Marco delivery the two bands that I was most impressed by, which were
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Link Bracelet and the Classic Buckle. And then I will keep one or both
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those when they arrive, we’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you ordered a link bracelet separately to the tune of like 500 bucks or whatever it was?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did, yeah. What I loved about the link bracelet that none of the other ones had, except for the modern buckle, is remember
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was talking about like what I really wanted most was quick release and quick attachment
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the size being preset all the time. Because I don’t want to have to like mess with the link,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or mess with the band. And like, I found when I was trying on the Milanese loop in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the store. I was constantly fiddling, like I would put it on and oh this is a little bit too loose,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tighten a little bit too tight. I have to constantly be adjusting that band because I know myself,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know I’m like picky and a little bit obsessive about things like that and so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know that not having it be exactly my correct setting every single time would drive me crazy.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh on that topic we got some feedback about this I think it was email but all my first question about all this is
⏹️ ▶️ John like how often do you think you’re taking thing on and off. I mean, maybe I guess like, yeah, they’re gonna wash dishes, you
⏹️ ▶️ John gotta take it off, wash dishes, put it back on, take it like, is it like a speed contest? Is it like you have to get it on and off
⏹️ ▶️ John within three seconds or something bad happens? It’s like you put it on in the morning, you take it off at night, that’s two times a day.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Not that I’m, you
⏹️ ▶️ John can have whatever, you know, criteria you want for your purchase, but that seems weird to me. But the second thing is that
⏹️ ▶️ John a couple of listeners brought up is the exact sizing thing, your wrist changes
⏹️ ▶️ John size based on like like how hot you are, how much humidity there is, how long the day
⏹️ ▶️ John has gone on, right? And if you’re that sensitive to a particular fit, you may have to end up adjusting it anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s actually easier to readjust something like the Milanese loop as you bloat
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann during the day, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Or go out into the cold or whatever, than it would be to try to adjust the link bracelet, which is not like adjustable
⏹️ ▶️ John with bare hands. So it depends on how sensitive you are to the specific adjustments.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I always say like the plain old whatever it It’s the classic buckle that has like a bunch of holes. Yep.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re gonna pick one hole That’s gonna be the hole that you use and because there is no possibility of fine adjustments
⏹️ ▶️ John At least I think I would sort of mentally Accept the fact that I won’t be fine adjusting this I’m just gonna pick
⏹️ ▶️ John whichever hole works best and there’s probably gonna be one that I’m gonna have to deal with both when it’s cold and when it’s hot and when
⏹️ ▶️ John you know When my arms are puffy and when they’re not and it’s gonna be well That’s that’s the hole the thing goes in
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess you do the same thing with a link bracelet I’m just like well, this is the size I just a link bracelet too and I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not readjusting it because it’s a pain you need tiny screwdrivers or whatever the hell you need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, it’s buttons. But yeah, so so so to go back the person who challenged us
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was dr. Drang on Twitter our friend Dr. Drang and he said why am I taking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off a watch so much besides just once you know taking putting on the morning taking off at night The answer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to that is I don’t know how often I’m putting this thing on and off I am you know because I work at home
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I’m and I’m helping out with with our kid and everything I am very often like washing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hands, washing things, getting wet, you know, helping with the bath, all this stuff. Like I’m constantly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting my hands wet and washing things. And so I think there’s a very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good chance I’ll be taking it off more than once a day. But it’s more that I haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worn a watch since forever ago, for 20 years I haven’t worn a watch. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any annoyance of of wearing a watch is going to be amplified in my mind because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not used to it. So just the process of putting it on in the morning, taking it off at night
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and putting it in the charger, all of those things are going to slightly annoy me for a while. So my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco goal here was to maximize comfort and minimize annoyance. So that’s why my reservation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the Link Bracelet is that it is pretty heavy and at the very end
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of when I was trying it on I did get a pinched arm hair and everybody says that always happens to them. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my guess is the link bracelet’s probably going to be back ordered and arrive later. And my guess
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that the classic buckle will arrive first and I will like it so much that I will probably just cancel the order for the link bracelet.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean, I’ve worn a watch most of my life and we probably covered
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this last episode, but suffice it to say, I went a few years when I first got my iPhone where I stopped wearing it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then, I don’t know, not long ago, I started wearing a cheap watch again. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the only time I take my watch off during the day is if it’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bath time with Declan. If I’m washing dishes, it stays on. If I’m washing my hands,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it stays on. If I’m doing almost anything except bath
⏹️ ▶️ Casey time or, you know, if I happen to go swimming one day for some reason, uh, that watch stays on. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t want to speak for you. I mean, I don’t know if maybe you’re the kind of guy that like takes everything out
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of his pockets the moment he arrives anywhere. I don’t remember you being that way, but you could be, um, and maybe takes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey his watch off the minute you’re standing still for more than a second. But for me, I never take my watch off
⏹️ ▶️ Casey except when I go to bed. I don’t know. All right. So John, uh, what did you order
⏹️ ▶️ John Before we get to that, I have one more thing related to all the people telling stories about ordering at 3 a.m.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, which a lot of people that I know or follow on Twitter did having heard them on podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ John and read their tweets and seen their timelines. I’m very surprised by how many of them
⏹️ ▶️ John said, like Marco did, I set my alarm for 257 for 258
⏹️ ▶️ John and then woke up and ordered the watch. And I’m surprised by that because if I was gonna wake
⏹️ ▶️ John up in the middle of the night to order something I would not want to put such a small margin
⏹️ ▶️ John on like if anything goes wrong if you can’t get on the Wi-Fi for a second or if the app launches
⏹️ ▶️ John slow or if you’re groggy and you tap the wrong thing. Why in
⏹️ ▶️ John the world would you cut it so close? I mean, 255? Like, is it going
⏹️ ▶️ John to kill you? Wouldn’t you want… It just amazes me that I’m assuming people are reading the real time,
⏹️ ▶️ John they really set their alarm for 258 and then just kind of like rolled over and grabbed their iPod. I
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, maybe it’s a testament to how easy it is to order from the little app thing. But geez, I would never cut it that close.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like it’s not even worth because what would it be like if I woke up at that time and like
⏹️ ▶️ John because of some stupid tech thing, didn’t actually get to order until five minutes
⏹️ ▶️ John after. It’s crazy. And everybody, like I must be the weird one, because everybody I’ve heard set their alarm within like one,
⏹️ ▶️ John two or three minutes of 3 a.m. And I think you’re all crazy. I mean, what if your NTP server, you haven’t updated
⏹️ ▶️ John your time for a while and you’re offline a minute or two. By the time you get the iPod out, people could have already
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but what you’re forgetting though, is that California in general, and certainly Apple pre-orders,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey when have they ever been exactly on time?
⏹️ ▶️ John You never know, like why risk it? You’re making yourself miserable waking up in the middle of the night anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ John Why would you not give yourself a margin of error? These are the type, and especially Marco who now lives in New York, is not representing well
⏹️ ▶️ John for you in New York. These are the people who are not on time to things because they’re like, well, it only takes me five minutes to get
⏹️ ▶️ John from here to there. You know, yes, if conditions are perfect, you can’t leave yourself five minutes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, okay, in my defense, first of all, there’s usually not a lot of contention for the wifi
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my house at 3 a.m. You never
⏹️ ▶️ John know what’s gonna happen. What if you had to use cellular? What if there was a power outage in the middle of the night? What
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco don’t like this? That
⏹️ ▶️ Marco takes two seconds to switch. And so my rationale there is, because I’m actually waking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco myself up for this, I’m not just staying awake for it, I’m waking up from sleep for this, I want to be awake
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the shortest time possible because the longer I’m awake, the harder it will be to go back to sleep.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just like the watch taking off thing. I wanna be able to get the watch on and off really fast, and I wanna be awake for three
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was, no, I was seriously considering just not waking up for it and just waking up at like six or seven in the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco morning, right? For the day.
⏹️ ▶️ John That is also a valid choice. I’m just saying for the people who decided they were going to wake up in the middle of the night, why
⏹️ ▶️ John risk making that all for nothing?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, because the reality is usually with these things, like if you wake up in the middle of the night and order the new iPhone when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it comes out, you don’t really have to do that. Like you can probably wake up at seven or eight in the morning
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and order it then and you’ll probably still get day one stock. Like there’s so much stock of most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of these new products when they release that you don’t really have to worry about that too
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much. With this, the risk was a little bit higher because it’s like, well, they’re saying everything that they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to have limited stock. It is a brand new kind of thing, not just a brand new generation of something. So maybe they’ll have very few of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. And that proved to be true. But the risk of missing it by a minute
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is really not that high. And by the way, here it came up at like 302 or whatever. Some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people that I read, I’ve seeing responses on Twitter, like I’m switching back,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like once it didn’t go for a while, I was like switch back to Twitter, check it for like five seconds, and go back to the app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to try again. And people had already put in their orders when my app was still launching
⏹️ ▶️ Marco clean and then saying not available. So there’s actually these little delays with like various, I assume it’s like a CDN
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s why you gotta have redundancy. You should be checking on your computer and also on your iPod, and maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John through a VPN to something else so you get a decent CDN.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but see, for something like WDC tickets, back when that was the lottery, or that was the like just rush system,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which we’ll talk about, but back during that, it made more sense, because like the risk was higher. You
⏹️ ▶️ Marco knew that was gonna sell out in a very, very, very short time. Whereas with new product launches,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it usually is not that severe if you’re a minute after everybody else.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, I didn’t wake up in the middle of the night. I didn’t order a watch. I did think more about ordering watches. I did think about
⏹️ ▶️ John getting to the store to look at them, but I have done neither of those things.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, now you have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco until June to think about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, and from the sound of it, It’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, if you didn’t order immediately, then, you know, although I may have, yeah, I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t made any decision about the watch. Sometimes I think I should just definitely get like a
⏹️ ▶️ John really fancy one because who the hell cares? Sometimes I think, what are you doing? You shouldn’t buy any of these things. You’re never going to use it.
⏹️ ▶️ John has resulted in no action on my part. Casey?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I talked about this at length on analog, which won’t be out until this coming
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sunday. And by the time we get this episode out, it’ll probably be Friday, so there’ll be a little lag.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the short, short version is, I was in DC. I was going to give a talk, actually
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the opening keynote at CocoConf DC. And because of that, I knew I shouldn’t be waking up at three
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the morning. So I woke up at about seven, actually a couple minutes before my alarm, and thought, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey let me look at Twitter and see how it went and saw that there were like 350 missed tweets. And so I immediately scrolled
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the top and said, the hell with that. Then I opened the Apple Store app on my phone and saw, oh my God, they’re shipping
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in June. I must have one, I must order it now. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had tremendous fear of missing out, as Mike pointed out to me. I believe it’s pronounced FOMO.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think you’re thinking of FOMO, but I’m with you. So in any case, what I ended
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up doing was ordering a, I always get it wrong. Is it Space
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Gray Sport or Space Black Sport? Space Gray? The Geek Watch? Yeah, the Geek Watch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 42 Space Gray Sport with black sport band.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s exactly it. So that is what I ordered and it is not due in until June sometime.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I wrote, as Marco had alluded to, I wrote a blog post about this. I’m still
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not sure how I feel about all of it. Obviously, I ordered one, so I feel strongly enough that either
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m scared of missing out or that it might be good that I place the order.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know, I’m, I keep going back and forth. Kind of like what John had said that,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey eh, yeah, this, this should probably just get canceled. I probably shouldn’t even get this. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then five minutes later, Oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco actually, I, uh, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this might be fairly awesome and I start thinking about all the cool things I can do with it. But in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the end I figure I’ll just, I’ll just let it go and I’ll, and I’ll receive the watch
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in June, probably after WWDC. So I’ll look at all of you with your cool kid watches and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll be looking at my Timex Weekend are crying. But yeah, so I’ll get the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch and then I’ll use it for a week, week and a half and if I like it, sweet, then I’m glad I ordered.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if I don’t like it, no worries, I’ll return it and life goes on.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the way they did it, so before, did your opinion change after you did
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a try-on appointment? Because you went to see them later in person. Did your opinion of any of these choices change
⏹️ ▶️ Casey My opinion about watch bans changed dramatically and I no longer lost nearly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as much over what Stephen Hackett dubbed the Darth Vader watch, which is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Black Link. The Black Link. So I went to two different try-on appointments.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I crashed Joel Hausman and Steph Hausman’s try-on appointment. They’re friends of mine
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Marco’s as well that live up in D.C. And so I crashed their try-on appointment
⏹️ ▶️ Casey over lunch Friday, and I didn’t try on the watch, But I got to like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know feel the different bands just you know on the little mat and I got to play with the Demo unit that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey housed in acrylic and I left that Thinking my goodness. This is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really bad because the demo unit I used was really non-responsive really really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey laggy I Did not care for it at all fast forward a couple of days
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I went myself and did a try on on Sunday
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I decided in short that I really do like the black sport band. It feels a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey better than I expected Although I agree with you Marco. I’m a little scared about the sweatiness factor.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I Didn’t really care for the link bracelet as much as I thought I would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I think that’s in large part because the particular link bracelet that they had for try
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on was like three feet too big for my wrist
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And Ryan your people wouldn’t adjust it right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and well I kind of hinted Oh, these are really easy to change right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and hoping the gentleman would be like well Yes, let me show you but he wanted none of it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well officially their their training tells them they are not allowed to to take out links
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sizing many of the employees Are either not unaware of that or are ignoring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that and and doing it anyway, which I I don’t I don’t see why they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shouldn’t be allowed to do that like it makes such a big difference when you’re wearing it whether it’s fit to you or
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t you see why they’re not they don’t want them to do that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well cuz they don’t want people like stealing the links or something little pieces they’ll get lost yeah totally it’s under pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good security like there’s all the like they can only have two watches out at a time and there’s lots of people watching over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you no pun intended and and there’s guards
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey at the door and everything I mean like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco somebody who’s like really good at sleight of hand could probably get one But like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re not trying to steal them. That’s like they’ll just fall on the ground They’ll fall in someone’s sandal in
⏹️ ▶️ John California, and they’ll just walk out with it. It’ll be in someone’s pocket They’ll be scattered on the table, and they won’t get all the pieces
⏹️ ▶️ John up again like they’ll just constantly be losing pieces
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in practice The appointments I’ve seen I’ve only gone to one store, but because of various
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhone and laptop service appointments I had I’ve actually been there three times since the watch just started
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And it’s never been crowded. Now granted I go during non-peak times because going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco during peak times is stupid, but it is not like some mad rush
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the watch tables.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I will say that the two try-on appointments that I went to, one again that I was not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the star of the show if you will, and the other one I was, both times in two different Apple stores, a couple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hours apart in terms of driving distance, the people that were doing the try-on,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The employees were super nice, super patient, super helpful,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really wanted to impress upon us that these are really nice
⏹️ ▶️ Casey devices and they were willing to take as much time as we wanted in order to convince us that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we wanted to buy. Well, that sounds shady, but in other words, they just wanted us to be happy with our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey try on experience and it was really nice. So yeah, so trying them on, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey liked the black leather band a lot. I had heard rumblings that the other leather, I’m sorry, not leather,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sport. I’d heard rumblings that the other sport bands felt different and so I asked to feel the white one and it is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very different and I far preferred the black. I didn’t really care for the link bracelet because it was too
⏹️ ▶️ Casey big and too heavy, which was very surprising to me because I’ve had link bracelet watches in the past and I’ve liked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey them. And I actually really, really liked the Milanese Loop. However,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do understand where you’re coming from Marco because my inclination was to put it on and leave it a little bit loose,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey probably too loose for the heart rate sensor. And so I wonder
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if living with it would actually be more frustrating than I think it would be because I’d have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to tighten it often. So I can see where you’re coming from Marco on that one that it may, even though
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s my favorite sitting here now, living with it, I may change my tune. Although I have not ordered one,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sitting here now there’s no way I’m going to have a Milanese loop because I haven’t ordered it, don’t plan to, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’ll see what happens.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, our first sponsor this week is Automatic, your smart driving assistant on your smartphone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to automatic.com slash ATP. Automatic is this little dongle that plugs
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco the driver’s footwell area, and this is where like garages and stuff will plug in their computer things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see the error codes your car is reporting to them and figure out various parameters, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re running tests, you can figure out like gas efficiency stuff like that. Well, anyway, Automatic connects
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you are, what kind of routes you take. They can tell you where you parked your car
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even because they know that this is a combined in there and it gives you real-time feedback
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right as you’re driving that can really save you hundreds of dollars a year on gas if you wanted to you can
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco normally you don’t really have any insight into you can’t really access it of course it can do the basics like
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole API and they have integration with IFTTT so that you can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do things like for instance, you can say as you head home from work, automatically connect to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my Nest thermostat and turn the heat on or turn the air conditioning on so that by the time you get home it’s nice and cool and nice and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco warm in your house. There’s all sorts of stuff you can integrate through IFTTT
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or using their API directly. It’s really pretty great. You can download your driving data, you can download
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your history, your metrics, all these things that you’re, all this data you’re collecting through this port.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can, you can even subscribe to API events for things like when you start and stop the car,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the check engine light comes on for any reason. Um, it really, really great stuff. This is all available
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP. Thanks a lot to Automatic for sponsoring our show. Once again, these have been longtime sponsors of ours.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even, we even mentioned them back in the neutral days. They, we talked about them during one of the neutral episodes so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty cool. Thanks a lot to Automatic, Automatic.com slash ATP.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Excellent. So, we have to sort of kind of follow the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sponsor break with a sponsor break. And this sponsor break is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for us Because guess what time it is? It’s WWDC time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And guess what that means, kids? It means it’s t-shirt time.
⏹️ ▶️ John That means we have our act together early this year, relatively early. We are not scrambling at the
⏹️ ▶️ John last second. It’s a miracle.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ve actually prepared a short introduction with it to play for you right now.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann From the beginning, what has driven ATP clothing is a compulsion to take incredible
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann t-shirts and make them accessible, relevant, and ultimately personal.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann We’ve conceived, designed, and developed a range of t-shirts so personal
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann that you can actually wear them. ATP Shirt is a singular product
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann with a design that connects with the wearer at an intimate level to embrace individuality
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann whilst also referencing traditional shirt vocabulary. We’ve created
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann three distinct collections. For ATP Shirt, we start with a blend
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann of three fibers known for their softness and durability.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Cotton is both strong and beautiful and has long been used to make fine t-shirts.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann We combine it with polyester and rayon for increased resilience and innovative
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann draping to make the softest, most comfortable t-shirts in the world.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann ATP Shirt Sport is breathable, high-performance activewear And yet,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it’s incredibly light and durable for maximum performance.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann ATP Shirt Edition is uniquely luxurious, printed with exquisite
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann gold-coloured foil that textile specialists have developed to be much thinner and softer
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann than real 18-carat gold. We designed ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Shirt as a whole range of T-shirts, enabling uncompromising individuality
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and elegance. We’re now at a compelling beginning, actually designing
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann t-shirts to be worn and to be truly personal.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m trying so hard to compose myself. That is so magnificent.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, thank you, Johnny. Thank you, Matt Alexander, for stepping in and being the token Brit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for that because we couldn’t have had it any other way.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the only Brit you know, right? Well, one of two.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s Matt and Mike. It’s the M-named Brits.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Matt told me he didn’t want anything for this. However, I have to thank his wonderful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco business, Neededition.com. That’s Need, who has sponsored us before,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for giving up his time to let him do this for me, even though he’s the boss. But yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco guy. So for more information on our shirts, go to atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash shirt to see the full collection of ATP shirt.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have three sub collections, I don’t know, what are they called? You can’t say additions.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP shirt has three collections that we’ve curated. Exactly, exactly. Orders
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are now live. There’s no pre-order wait. You know, we won’t sell them to you in six months. They’re now live.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s only here for a brief time, because it’s the Teespring model, so you gotta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pre-order a bunch, and then they print them all at once, and then that’s it. So if you want one, you gotta hurry
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up. It’s, what, about 10 days or something like that?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, good, well, still hurry up, because podcast people are, you’re probably not listening to this immediately when we release
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, and if you are, thank you. But check it out, atp.fm slash shirt.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You don’t have to wake up at 3 a.m. to order it. You can order it right now. And yeah, so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey happened. I’m so happy this happened. And to be clear, in case you are in a position, maybe you’re driving
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you’re not able to look at the website, we really genuinely do have three different,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we have three collections. We have the ATP shirt sport, which is printed on kind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of sort of Under Armour. It’s a, what is this? High performance Hanes cool dry active wear. We
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have the ATP shirt, which is, what is it? and cotton.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then we have the ATP shirt edition. Marco, this is an especially wonderful touch. Would you like to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey explain to us the ATP shirt edition? The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco edition actually has gold colored foil as the ink.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know how this works. I don’t know anything about clothing, but apparently this is a thing that like is actually fairly common these days.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s actually like a gold colored foil as the print so that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have a gold edition of our shirt. This is It’s so amazing. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey so happy about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this. And it does not cost $10,000. No, it does not.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although, relatively speaking, it might as well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Don’t tell people. Just ATP shirt starts at $20. We’ll tell you in six months what the rest of the prices are.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God. See, I’m terrible at this. I’m not good at marketing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So yeah, the ATP shirt sport is $20. ATP shirt is $25 in four different colors.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco NATP shirt edition starts at $50 and also ends at $50.
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, we will tell you the product mix. You’ll be able to tell for yourself because there’s little bar charts on every single page.
⏹️ ▶️ John We have literally no idea which shirts these people are gonna buy. If everyone wants to buy a $20
⏹️ ▶️ John shirt, fine, go ahead. So we have no idea what the mix is gonna be, but you guys will tell us.
⏹️ ▶️ John Get out there and buy some shirts, and then you can look at the little comparison bar charts, and you’ll see, is everybody
⏹️ ▶️ John buying the sport, like the Apple Watch? You don’t have to, they all come at the same time roughly, so you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John have to buy one to get it sooner, but does everybody buy the shirt? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re kind of, the part of the joke is we’re using the same ridiculous product naming that Apple did, but now we’re suffering
⏹️ ▶️ John for it because we can’t even talk about
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey our own shirts because it’s impossible to say, are you
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco getting the ATP shirt shirt
⏹️ ▶️ John or the edition shirt edition? Anyway, go to the page, it has pictures, click
⏹️ ▶️ John on the one you want and buy it. There’s men’s and women’s style. Make sure you don’t accidentally buy
⏹️ ▶️ John a men’s shirt when you wanted a women’s or vice versa, because the previews kind of look the same, particularly
⏹️ ▶️ John the sport shirts, the men’s is in blue and the women’s is in white. And that’s it, there’s no men’s white, there’s no women’s blue.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they do look kind of similar. So, and the other shirts, you can get them in black and gray.
⏹️ ▶️ John Make sure you’re buying the one you wanna get.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is so magnificent. I’m genuinely so happy that this came together. We may sell five
⏹️ ▶️ Casey shirts and I’m still going to be thrilled this all happened
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah none of us have any idea as we’re saying this like how many editions we’re gonna sell we have no clue I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think we’re gonna sell a
⏹️ ▶️ John lot I’m trying not to buy one of each like I tend to buy my own shirts even though I don’t wear them to just have them
⏹️ ▶️ John which is why I’m the proud owner of every color of the hypercritical shirt those will be worth something someday in pristine
⏹️ ▶️ John condition that’s right but I can’t buy this many shirts I don’t know which one I’m gonna get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’ve sold a total of six editions already three of the black and three of the red how many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those are Marco though I know I have I haven’t ordered mine yet five no I’m gonna order one of each the edition I I have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get one for my wife, of course, and I’ll get the men’s for me. And of course, and we have to tell people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the tradition of some other product line we’ve heard about recently, the additions are really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the only difference really is the colors available and the gold foil print.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, they all have the same CPU.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yep, they all are. Same amount of RAM. They are just as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Jonathan Mann fast.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They all have the same Bluetooth connectivity, which is none. Same artwork. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco same amount of space, same artwork, different colors of the artwork, slightly different positions on some of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them because the different shaped shirts right
⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s no bands but you are the band
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco think of yourself as the band
⏹️ ▶️ John you are a leather loop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco winding your way through the shirt and you and you come in all different colors and styles and you are special
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is so amazing I can’t believe we actually
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Casey this
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’m just I’m just
⏹️ ▶️ John glad we did it first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I was afraid of that honestly because this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is now we’re in t-shirt season for for podcasters and geek things because it’s near WWDC
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time. And so this is when everyone’s making their shirts.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right. So we can segue right into WWDC where we hope to see these shirts because they are shipping what?
⏹️ ▶️ John May 6th or something? WWDC starts June 8th.
⏹️ ▶️ John So there should be plenty of time for you to get your shirts and wear them to WWDC where we
⏹️ ▶️ John hope to see you, right guys?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I’ll be there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. So let’s get this out of the way right up front. Whether or not you receive
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a ticket, Marco, you have just said you are going?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, I’ve already booked an unrefundable plane ticket and I booked a hotel, so I’m there regardless.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s so much good stuff. Like now there’s Alt Conf and I saw Jesse Char’s doing a design
⏹️ ▶️ Marco conference. So like there’s, and like there’s, everyone’s there and there’s all these like smaller gatherings and people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who get together and watch the live stream or and you know, watch the keynote and then watch the sessions and everything. So there’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bunch of good stuff going on. I don’t hope that I don’t get a ticket, but if I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get a ticket, I’m kind of looking forward to being forced to go explore
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more of these things, like all at Conf. Because it really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does seem like there’s a lot of good stuff going on out there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I completely agree. I am also going. I have booked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my return flight, although coincidentally I have not yet booked my outgoing flight, because I’m trying to work out with Erin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whether or not she and or, well, I guess not or she and Declan are going to come
⏹️ ▶️ John leave him home. He’s fine. He’s old enough now.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, he’s old enough. He’s five and a half months. He’ll be fine. We’ll see what happens, but I am going to be going
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the week. I’ll be flying back Friday afternoon, which we should also talk about in a moment.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, what is your agenda?
⏹️ ▶️ John I like both of you entered into the ticket lottery. If I do not get
⏹️ ▶️ John a ticket probably won’t be going. I have
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann hotel reservations,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re cancelable. I have not booked a plane flight yet. I’m just hoping
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean I’ll just have to wait and see and decide them. But right now I don’t know if you know like the whole reason I would be going
⏹️ ▶️ John is To go to wwc. I don’t have apps that i’m developing
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think I can justify going out there for a whole week for nothing, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I’ll decide when I find out what the result of the lottery is, but unlike the two of you I’m not committing
⏹️ ▶️ John to going at this point.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay now Would it affect your decision if we asked all of the internet to shame you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and tweet at you and say you should go
⏹️ ▶️ John The internet’s not gonna be there Anyway, all the internet could be home the same as me watching the live streams of the sessions
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, I mean some sessions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Would you if you don’t go would you actually watch the live streams? Or would you just treat it like a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco normal work week and just kind of ignore it and say I’ll watch them later and then never watch them. The
⏹️ ▶️ John fact that they’re live, it’s not the live, like last year wasn’t it like you they had the streams basically that night
⏹️ ▶️ John or the next day or like there was a one day like that’s fine like that’s what I would do is I would come home from work and you know put the
⏹️ ▶️ John kids to bed and then watch some WWDC sessions you know. Like I don’t care that I don’t have to see them live
⏹️ ▶️ John live except for maybe I would take a day off to see Keynote the State of the Union live but other than that you know.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep all right so let’s talk about the ticketing system and Marco you had said you want you had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some things to say so I’ll just kick it right over to you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I thought so. So last year was, that was the first year for the lottery, right, last year?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe you are correct. I believe it was last year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, so basically, you know, before the system was just you show up and buy a ticket, just like ordering
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a phone, and when they run out, they run out. And after a couple years of that happening
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like crazily quickly, they switched to a lottery system where you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a few days window to go and say, consider me for a ticket. and you throw
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your hat in the ring, and then what they did last year was they would email you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco after a few days, after submissions were cut off, and if you got in, they’d email you and say, hey, here’s a link, you can buy the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ticket within 24 hours or whatever. Overall, it was a very good system. The only real flaw in that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that it allowed people to duplicate sign up. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you had more than one developer account, which many people do, especially consultants, or people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who work full-time and then do their own side projects or whatever. Hi. Yeah, exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco A lot of people have multiple developer accounts. And so that allowed you to sign up. It was stupid
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not to. You should use multiple developer accounts to increase your chances last year. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so a lot of people did. Also, that allowed people to take up slots in the system who
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe weren’t that serious, maybe didn’t really want to go that badly, but like, well, I don’t really want to go
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that badly, but if I get a ticket, then I’ll go, right? This year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and last year, I forget, somewhere I mentioned that they should do it this way, and this year they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changed it so that this year, in order to be considered for a ticket,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you had to put in your credit card and basically place an order. And if they choose
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you, they’re just gonna charge your credit card and it’s non-refundable. So if you sign up with multiple developer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco accounts, there’s a chance that more than one of them will win the lottery, and you’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just be out $1,600. Like, you’ll be just out. And the tickets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are non-transferable and everything. And in the past, that’s been mixed as to whether you could actually transfer them or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not. But they’re pretty serious about it this time. So we don’t know if you can actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco easily transfer a duplicate ticket if you get one from different accounts. So really, it’s like this time,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s pretty much, there’s very little reason to sign up multiple accounts or to sign up if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re not really that serious about it. Because if you quote, win, lottery and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they and they pick you you literally just get charged and that’s it and there’s no more there’s no recourse I
⏹️ ▶️ John how many people were aware of that though because I certainly wasn’t I went through the whole process as always I did
⏹️ ▶️ John I did one entry I did one entry last year to one entry this year I don’t have multiple accounts that are even eligible to buy
⏹️ ▶️ John from I think so but I did not notice any like who reads the fine print like I’m sure that was in there
⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere but I’m just like click click click click click done same here I imagine a lot of people are going to be unpleasantly
⏹️ ▶️ John surprised when they get charge $1,600 three times instead of the one or when they go to cancel.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right, I won the lottery three times. I just got to cancel the other two. Nope. I mean, like you can
⏹️ ▶️ John always do a charge back on the credit card company. I’m sure there are ways out of this, but it’s I don’t think that was
⏹️ ▶️ John expressed in the UI in a way that made people aware of it. I think after the fact, now we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John all aware of it because we’re all reading each other’s blog posts from the people who did read the fine print.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. I am right there with you, John. I registered on my personal
⏹️ ▶️ Casey account, immediately went and registered on my work account. And then like three hours later, a friend
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the show, underscore David Smith said to me, yeah, man, that sucks about the Insta charging. And I was,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my words, not his. And I said, wait, what? He said, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re going to charge you instantly if you win. Oh.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I immediately backed off. I forget which one, but I backed off and I think withdraw or withdrew
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the term they used. One of the two hats I threw in the ring.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I think this makes sense. I think this makes perfect sense from Apple’s perspective
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in that they don’t want someone to put in two or five or 10 entries,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and if you could potentially. When every single one, you’re not likely to do that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you did last year. But what I wonder is to John’s point, it wasn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really obvious that that was the case, and even if you were like, ah, screw it, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no way I’ll win. And you put in two or three or four entries. And then what if all four of them, let’s say, win?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What are you going to do? I mean, if you can’t transfer them, or if you’re a solo person and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you have no one to transfer them to, even if you wanted to, what are you going to do? Are they really going to have four empty
⏹️ ▶️ Casey slots at WWDC? Like when push comes to shove, do you really think Apple’s going to be like, well, tough noogies?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, like we had an email question asking about this, but, and of course, past years
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have necessarily have any bearing on the current year. but the general process has been for the few years that I’ve gone is that you
⏹️ ▶️ John go and Pick up your badge and you have to show them ID or whatever prove that you are who you are
⏹️ ▶️ John in some way and that’s the only time they ever connect a
⏹️ ▶️ John Person to a badge So if you bought four of them on four personal accounts You could go and
⏹️ ▶️ John pick up one badge go out go and pick up your second badge go out go and pick up your third Badge go out
⏹️ ▶️ John go and pick up your fourth badge go out now you have four W3C badges that you could distribute to your four co-workers
⏹️ ▶️ John or friends and for the rest of the conference everyone is just looking to see that you have a badge.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re not going to say this badge says John Doe or you John Doe prove that you’re John Doe that never happens.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now that’s not to say that might not happen if you go thinking that you will never be checked and you are suddenly checked
⏹️ ▶️ John bummer for you right like security changes every year but in the past what I just described has
⏹️ ▶️ John been possible so if someone did actually win the lottery four times
⏹️ ▶️ John they could conceivably still get four passes and distribute them to other people. The other possibility is that you entered four times
⏹️ ▶️ John because you didn’t read the print that was there that said you were going to be charged immediately and
⏹️ ▶️ John you still only won one. You got that you lucked out you got the advantage of having four entries
⏹️ ▶️ John when other people only had one entry and it paid off for you because you lost three times but won once so now you
⏹️ ▶️ John got one ticket and you still kind of did the same thing that that Marco was complaining about from last year
⏹️ ▶️ John the people you know sort of have bought a whole bunch and used the shotgun approach and crossed their fingers.
⏹️ ▶️ John The system of charging immediately will probably work better next year when everyone knows that it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a thing, but this year it only worked as well as people’s attention during
⏹️ ▶️ John the purchase process to notice that text there. I do not doubt that the text was there,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t know, just like your condition to just go click click click click click, I didn’t read it, I didn’t notice
⏹️ ▶️ John it. I just assumed that it would, if I saw anything to that effect, I would have assumed like, oh, they’re just gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John do an off on a card, but they’re not gonna do a settle. And like, that’s just what everybody does on purchases to make sure it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a legitimate card and stuff like that, right? It never occurred to me that it would be like, non-refundable.
⏹️ ▶️ John And realistically speaking, like I said, I don’t think it is non-refundable. You can always probably dispute it with the credit card company
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever and get the charge reversed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like a chargeback is very possible to fix it, but that’s kind of a crappy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing to do. Like this is a pretty bad reason to invoke a charge back if you end up having to do
⏹️ ▶️ John And I think this is an improvement over last year’s system. I just think that the communication
⏹️ ▶️ John about this improvement should have been more in your face. And next year I think it will
⏹️ ▶️ John be more socialized amongst all the people who care enough to enter this lottery that it will be a better
⏹️ ▶️ John deterrent. But this year, seems like it’ll probably shake out similarly to last year in terms of like
⏹️ ▶️ John how many people put in multiple entries and stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, we’ll see. Anyone who really pays attention to this sort of thing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is likely to have only put in one entry. Like I said, I put in two, and just like you, John, I just clicked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey immediately through everything, I think in no small part because I’m so trained and conditioned from
⏹️ ▶️ Casey earlier years when it was a mad dash. And even though conceptually I understand it’s a lottery
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the time doesn’t matter, I’m still conditioned to, oh my God, got to get in, got to get in, got to get in. And because of that, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t really read anything. But anyone who is paying any attention at all, or is friends
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with people who pay attention like I am, is gonna have heard about this. So I don’t think there’ll be that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey many that double dip, but I am curious to see how it’s handled.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just love that for the first time ever, I paid attention to something and read something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you guys didn’t. Because I, during the process of reserving
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my first spot, I didn’t reserve a second one, the process of reserving my first spot,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I immediately got that impression and immediately noticed the change and I think they were very clear about it.
⏹️ ▶️ John we will see. If you don’t have an eye towards multiples, like I was never going to buy multiples, I have no way to buy multiples,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I’m just skimming the text, it’s not relevant to me, but if like you, you are planning
⏹️ ▶️ John to go through one window, click, click, click, and then go through a second window, click, click, click, I imagine what you were looking for is some kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John prohibition that says if the same person enters the lottery two times all their entries would be nullified or something
⏹️ ▶️ John like that. Like, that’s what you should basically be on the lookout for. Right. Which would motivate you to read all the text
⏹️ ▶️ John and then actually read
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the soul. And there is actually like a rule in there that says like one per person basically and you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who knows how they’re going to enforce it. Obviously this, you know, if you’re, if you’re playing like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nicely by the rules, you wouldn’t enter more than one time in a system like this. It doesn’t sound like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of thing where like, if you, if all your accounts have your name on them so you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco trying to pick up like two of the two badges with the same name on them you’re gonna as somebody pointed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out in the chat earlier when you go in and pick up your badge it’s sorted by last name so you probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see the exact same person giving you your badge and signing you in
⏹️ ▶️ John it is by Apple ID ultimately so like they may say be like oh there’s two people what if you have two people who
⏹️ ▶️ John actually have the same name but of course they have two different Apple IDs they would have two badges that both say John Doe on them right
⏹️ ▶️ John and they would say I’m John Doe which John Doe are you I’m John Doe with Apple ID whatever right and so you just have to keep
⏹️ ▶️ John going back and picking up more John Doe badges But you can also just have different names on your Apple IDs for your multiple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s true But either way it’s now in order to get Multiple tickets or in order
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have multiple chances of getting tickets you have to jump through a lot of hoops now and possibly Do do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some pretty crappy things and so it’s probably not worth it. I I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I hope this would probably probably deter most people from doing that, but we will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. Because it would be more fair of a system if people didn’t do that, but the way it was last
⏹️ ▶️ Marco year, you kind of can’t blame people for doing it because it’s so easy and there’s no downside. So I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is probably a move for the better. It is going to be interesting to see how it shakes out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as people who didn’t read the text get double charged. We’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’m very curious to see how this goes. I genuinely wish the two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of you guys the best of luck. I really hope that I hope that we all get in But I hope that you guys get in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But we’ll see what happens and and it sounds like no matter what Marco I’ll be seeing you out there and hopefully we’ll be able to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey guilt John into it between now and
⏹️ ▶️ John The two you don’t even want to go to the session. So I think you should just forego tickets entirely
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I didn’t say
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann that
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re just like I’m gonna go to alt comp. I’m gonna be hanging out at bars and expand my horizons
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, like the reason I’ve never gone to alt conf is because I keep getting tickets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so like I know that if I have a ticket to WBDC I’m going to every session
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I always do I might miss like one time slot somewhere Maybe for something else, but that’s very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rare like ditto. Usually I go to every time slot and even even though I always
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comically pick wrong like I Whatever there’s there’s always like, you know three or four different choices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like things that are going on during this time slot that I’m kind of interested in or that I might be interested in,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I always pick the wrong one. I’m always in the session that nobody else is in and it’s always like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not quite what I thought it would be and everyone who went to the other one said, oh it was awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m just terrible at choosing what to go to.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, totally. All right, before we go any further about this, let’s thank somebody else if we could please.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Moments before we started recording tonight, there was a bit of a bombshell that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John dropped. John, John, would you like to tell us about that?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not a bombshell. I’ve been talking about it on this podcast for like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey eight months. It’s a bombshell, John.
⏹️ ▶️ John Eight months we’ve been talking about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s the least surprising bombshell to the people who know you the best. I don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann exactly. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, as I’ve been discussing since I think I published my
⏹️ ▶️ John OSX Yosemite review last year, I’m like, I think this might be the last one. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m now making it official. Two things are official. I actually posted something to hypercritical.co,
⏹️ ▶️ John which hasn’t happened since I’ve put up the Yosemite review. And two, what I posted there was an explanation
⏹️ ▶️ John that I am not going to review whatever the next major version of OS X that Apple will presumably announce
⏹️ ▶️ John at WWDC turns out to be. And I’ve explained
⏹️ ▶️ John why I was thinking of stopping the reviews many, many times on the show. I kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of tried to distill that explanation into a short little post that I admittedly
⏹️ ▶️ John wrote in 10 minutes before
⏹️ ▶️ John recording the show. But you can go to hypercritical.co and read it
⏹️ ▶️ John and I don’t think there’s anything really new to say. I just feel like I’m done with that. I’ve done that
⏹️ ▶️ John and I did it the best that I could do it and at a certain
⏹️ ▶️ John point the dread of having to
⏹️ ▶️ John do it outweighs the joy of having done it and it kind of crossed over that threshold around 10.9 10.10 and
⏹️ ▶️ John like honestly 10.9 probably would have been the last one except they
⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t except it was like they didn’t change the UI and it was so clear they were going to change the UI and I
⏹️ ▶️ John really love round numbers and so I said I’m gonna hold out for 10.10 and I’m totally glad that I did I wrote 10.10 knowing
⏹️ ▶️ John that it would more or less be my last I tried to end it with some amount of finality obviously it’s you know
⏹️ ▶️ John nothing is ever over like it will continue on and so on and so forth but it’s the end of the road for me. I think 15
⏹️ ▶️ John years, uh, you know, 10.0 through 10.10, plus a bunch of the developer reviews, plus Tom, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John the things I think I’ve got it covered. I think I did it. Uh, and so now
⏹️ ▶️ John someone else can take over and like so much has changed since I started writing these reviews. When I
⏹️ ▶️ John started writing them, I was the only person writing anything about OS 10 before people even knew what it was
⏹️ ▶️ John like, either you were a Mac user and you didn’t hear about this at all, or you are
⏹️ ▶️ John not a Mac user and you didn’t care what the hell Apple did, aren’t they going out of business anyway? Who the hell cares, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John And so part of the reason I got any kind of notoriety was because I would write these articles about
⏹️ ▶️ John this thing that people didn’t even know it existed. They’re like OSX, what? I don’t know. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John you can see from like the first paragraph like my first five reviews were telling people that the X is a Roman numeral
⏹️ ▶️ John 10, which granted people still mispronounce, including I’ve heard by the way, the audio version of the new Steve Jobs
⏹️ ▶️ John book. The guy reads it as OS X. Anyway, no excuse for that. But back
⏹️ ▶️ John then people didn’t know what it was. They’re like Unix and it’s a Mac and it’s got a command line. Well, I’m sure it won’t ship with the command
⏹️ ▶️ John line because that wouldn’t be a Mac then. Like just it was such a different world. These
⏹️ ▶️ John days it’s covered. Like forget about iOS. Even OS X. There are tons of
⏹️ ▶️ John great reviews out there. The idea of a long form
⏹️ ▶️ John nerd review that goes into obsessive detail is now not a new idea. It’s all
⏹️ ▶️ John over the place. A lot of people are great at it. I feel like I’m not needed anymore. I feel like I’ve done what
⏹️ ▶️ John I had to do and people have got it covered and we moved on to scroll jacking animated
⏹️ ▶️ John video reviews anyway. So I am a dinosaur from an earlier era.
⏹️ ▶️ John The hardest thing about writing this this little summary of why I’m not doing any more OS 10 reviews
⏹️ ▶️ John was that I I would end up having to link to my early reviews and boy
⏹️ ▶️ John I cannot look at those like and I say that that’s the way it should be with everything that’s the way it is
⏹️ ▶️ John but I go back to those old ones like why why did you think this was ready to be published like we didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John we didn’t have copywriters back then we didn’t really have editors to speak of it was just
⏹️ ▶️ John we didn’t know what we were doing I didn’t know what I was doing boy definitely a different world
⏹️ ▶️ John so I put the bottom of the this explanation I put links to all of my old OS 10
⏹️ ▶️ John reviews also links to the pre-releases and links to a couple of retrospectives. I wrote a retrospective about my
⏹️ ▶️ John reviews when I had 10 years worth of OS X reviews. I did a retrospective. I also did one at five years,
⏹️ ▶️ John five years of the OS and ten years of my reviewing them and this ending one is around 15. So
⏹️ ▶️ John there were a lot of milestones in there but you want to check it out you can and this year I
⏹️ ▶️ John have no doubt that you will have no problem finding some really excellent reviews of OS X as you have
⏹️ ▶️ John been able to for the past several years and I’ll talk about it in ATP so if you want to hear what I have to say about
⏹️ ▶️ John OS 10 10.11 whatever the hell they’re gonna call it you know where to come I’ll have plenty
⏹️ ▶️ John to say about it I just won’t write it down this time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so let’s get ahead of at least one or two questions if somebody set up a Kickstarter
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to try to fund in by your time in order to get you to write another review you will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not accept that money you will not do another review
⏹️ ▶️ John is the Kickstarter for a machine that will actually pause time,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann allowing me to write the
⏹️ ▶️ John review in a month that goes by in an instant, then that might be possible. But otherwise
⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t, you know, time may be money, but money is not time. And like
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole idea, as I say at the end of this review, when I decided that I’m not doing this and when I told Ars Technica that I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to do the review for them or for anybody else for that matter, I was so relieved
⏹️ ▶️ John as I thought of the idea of a summer. I have a summer stretching out before me and that summer I
⏹️ ▶️ John won’t be just obsessing the entire summer over this one thing. How am I going to fit it in? How am I going to get it
⏹️ ▶️ John done? How am I going to work it through all like my vacations and kids’ vacations? Will I get it done? When is the OS going
⏹️ ▶️ John to ship? Like that’s what my summers have been like. And just the relief of being like, this summer,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not what it’s going to be like. And of course I just replaced that stress with a different stress by doing a bunch of home renovations.
⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, that’s the idea. There’s a spot free in my stress pyramid, right? And I can just take
⏹️ ▶️ John something else and put it in there and hopefully it will be less stressful. And the second thing is like
⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC, the prospect of going to WWDC and not having to write a review. Well, it
⏹️ ▶️ John means that I’m not going to get a press pass this year, right? So fine. So if I don’t get in the lottery, like last year, I got a press pass from Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ John If I don’t get the lottery this year, I’m just, you know, tough luck, right? But the idea of being
⏹️ ▶️ John able to go to WWDC and just go to whatever the hell sessions I want and just just enjoy them and not
⏹️ ▶️ John frantically take notes and not obsess about what what I’m going to write about, that is exciting and relaxing to me. Like, going
⏹️ ▶️ John there as like a civilian, that is very attractive to me. So that’s how I know
⏹️ ▶️ John it was time to stop, if I’m just like excited about all the things that are going to be different now that I’m not writing it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you plan on doing some sort of small blog post for your blog or some sort of quick impressions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or anything like that?
⏹️ ▶️ John History has shown that I’m terrible at writing anything on my blog, so I would, if you’re going to bet on that, I’m going
⏹️ ▶️ John to say bet against, because that’s the safe bet there. I will certainly will talk about
⏹️ ▶️ John it at length here, right? So that’s, you know, it’s not like I don’t have an outlet for my thoughts without
⏹️ ▶️ John without this long form writing thing that I do once a year, I will talk about it on the podcast. And I won’t.
⏹️ ▶️ John Another thing that I get to enjoy is like, in past years, I’ve intentionally held back my
⏹️ ▶️ John opinions about OS 10 on the podcast, because it’s like, well, I’m saving it for the review, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John why spoil the entire review by talking about it for months and months on the podcast, even though apparently it doesn’t count and
⏹️ ▶️ John in many people’s minds and only the review counts. But anyway, now we’ll just be able to talk about it as things occur
⏹️ ▶️ John to us and I won’t be like hoarding my insights for this, you know, 30,000 word thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that I’m going to dump out. And then after it dumps out trying to say, trying to like retroactively
⏹️ ▶️ John say, let me explain to you my thinking behind these things and when I thought them and it will be nice to just be able to say things
⏹️ ▶️ John as they come. And I assume most of that will be on the podcast if I write something on my side.
⏹️ ▶️ John I suppose it could happen, but it doesn’t seem likely.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have mixed emotions about this era ending because I really have always
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoyed, even before I knew you, I’ve always enjoyed your reviews. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now that I do know you and I’ve seen your stress build over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the last few years especially, I can see both sides of it. I can see both that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco man, I really wish you’d continue these, I love reading them, but also I see that it really does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem to be making you miserable more and more each time. And that every time, like for the last few years,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every time you’d say you would be writing one, I’d be surprised that you were still doing it because of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how miserable it had made you the year before.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, it’s always been, like, it’s not like it’s gotten more miserable, it’s always been kind of miserable,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s got to be balanced by like, well, do you feel like you have something to say? Do you feel like there’s something you need? And in
⏹️ ▶️ John the beginning it was totally balanced out, but like, of course I have something to say. This is a crazy new thing, like Unix and the Mac,
⏹️ ▶️ John and like, and then the operating system was this big hairy mess, and you’re like, boy, I’ve got things to say about this. If this is gonna replace the
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac, they got a lot of work to do, right? And they more or less straightened things out, and I have my
⏹️ ▶️ John things that I still complain about, like the file system and the finder, and you know, all the different UI things in the dock
⏹️ ▶️ John and the graphical stuff, but like, at a certain point you’re like, either this could go on forever,
⏹️ ▶️ John or I gotta feel like that I have said what I have to say, And like it’s time, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not going to top myself at this point. Maybe the writing will get better, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just such a different world. Like iOS is so dominant that it didn’t even exist when I started
⏹️ ▶️ John and everything about OS X has to be written in terms of iOS. So half of my recent reviews are kind of like half iOS
⏹️ ▶️ John reviews because OS X features and its state
⏹️ ▶️ John in the entire industry is a reflection of wherever iOS is. I don’t know, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John sure there will come a time when they release a new version of OSX that is such a radically
⏹️ ▶️ John different thing that I’ll be like, oh man, I could have written a review of that that would have returned
⏹️ ▶️ John to form or whatever. But I just feel like I need to expand my horizons. What kind of writer,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is something I put at the bottom, I just added it at the last minute at the bottom of this post, to remind people that my
⏹️ ▶️ John full-time job has never been as a technology writer. My full-time job has never been
⏹️ ▶️ John a podcaster. My full-time job is as a programmer. All this stuff I do in the quote-unquote free
⏹️ ▶️ John time that I can carve out of my life with my family and my real job. And there’s not a lot of that time
⏹️ ▶️ John as anyone who has children and a wife and a regular
⏹️ ▶️ John 9-to-5 job that they go to. See how much time you can carve out for
⏹️ ▶️ John anything really, any kind of hobby type thing. And if those hobby things end up either
⏹️ ▶️ John not being fun, it’s like, well, then when is your fun time? It’s like, well, after my regular job, I have my podcasting job, and
⏹️ ▶️ John after my podcasting job, I have my freelance writing job, and then I have my family responsibilities.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s like sometimes I just want to just relax and not have to do anything.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s a balance. I get paid for writing these things, so that’s good. And I enjoyed
⏹️ ▶️ John writing them, and I enjoyed having written them. And podcasting is what has
⏹️ ▶️ John come to replace a lot of my writing because it, honestly for me because I’m such a terribly slow writer, takes
⏹️ ▶️ John less time to talk on a podcast. And so the ratio of enjoyment to investment
⏹️ ▶️ John of time is much better for podcasting. So I’ve been, as I noted, the thing I’ve been podcasting, like I tried
⏹️ ▶️ John to do the math, but I didn’t have time to do all the Google searching of my calendar to see. I’m doing like what 1.5,
⏹️ ▶️ John two podcasts a week for the past four or five years or something.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m practically, I’m a fairly prolific podcaster at this point, and it takes way
⏹️ ▶️ John less time than doing a single OS X review, because just, you know, we’re just talking here, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John And you just show up and you talk, and the whole ATP thing of not doing research, like it makes it sustainable and
⏹️ ▶️ John puts the balance way on the side of enjoyment for a podcast.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s by design. I mean, that’s like exactly why we do it this way. And, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have a similar battle as you in my mind of like, when do I write a blog post versus
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when do I save it for the podcast? Like, well, the blog
⏹️ ▶️ John posts are a little bit easier, but it’s like, you know, the kind of blog posts is the worst is the one where you gotta look up stuff. You’re going
⏹️ ▶️ John to Intel site, you’re looking at spec pages, you’re looking at benchmarks, and like, and then what if you have to start testing things yourself?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s so much easier to bang out like a three paragraph, like this thing I just wrote here, it’s all opinion, a couple links to old
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, done and done. There’s no facts, there’s no like things that you need to verify, and then product reviews are the worst,
⏹️ ▶️ John because you gotta verify things about an unreleased product from a company that isn’t really particularly communicative
⏹️ ▶️ John to you. And there’s a deadline and it’s just, yeah. So there’s a range within writing,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I mean that I’m a slow writer no matter what I’m writing. Like I’m amazed that I even got this thing done in 10 minutes. I just sort of
⏹️ ▶️ John closed my eyes and typed and like I would never have published that if we didn’t have the podcast deadline coming
⏹️ ▶️ John up and the shirts that we had to get up and that actually motivated me to just hit the publish button. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I would have sat on that for four more days
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to try to get it right.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I think a big part of what makes podcasting so much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more attractive or more efficient of time is, you know, as we’ve talked about in a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco couple episodes ago, like, the expectations of this medium are that it’s a casual conversation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so, like, you know, I’ve spoken at a couple conferences recently, and I talked to a few people,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I mentioned to a few people how I’m always very, very nervous to give conference talks,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I don’t really like doing it that often. And if somebody has listened to this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco show, that surprises them. Because here, I don’t generally sound nervous. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my reason for the difference there is that even though a conference talk will be watched by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very small fraction of the number of people who hear the show every week,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the expectations are extremely different from each of those. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the expectations of a conference talk that it is this like totally pre-written,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rehearsed, polished, researched thing that is fully formed beforehand
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all the work is thought through and done and then it’s presented to you as a complete
⏹️ ▶️ Marco polished product. And a blog post has many of the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco expectations. That it’s something, this is like a more formal kind of communication, a more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco structured, researched, more finalized, polished kind of thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has higher standards applied to it if you have much of an audience at all or any audience
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there were kind of reviews that you did that seems like it would have an even higher,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an even higher expectation there inherently of like the things you say better be correct,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you better be seeing all sides of it, you better, this better be complete, correct, and polished, and well done,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I can totally understand and why that would not only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stress you out a lot, but why that is less and less appealing over time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you have these other outlets like podcasting, where the expectations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are so different and so much more kind of low key or casual so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it’s less of a time commitment, it’s less stress, there’s less pressure to have everything exactly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right that you ever say. I totally get that.
⏹️ ▶️ John And like the value, the value, like if you were to carve up an OS X review and to say what parts are valuable
⏹️ ▶️ John to people, it’s shifted such that I think the parts that are the hardest work have the least
⏹️ ▶️ John value. Like, especially in the type of reviews that I did because it was like, oh, your reviews are in-depth or technical.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I was never like a Tom’s Hardware or Anand Tech or whatever where it’s all about like benchmarks and specs
⏹️ ▶️ John and whatever. And we love those reviews. And I love that somebody does them. And I love that that someone isn’t me, right? Because that is incredibly
⏹️ ▶️ John hard work. And we crave that info, but we are few and nerdy, Right? And so like most
⏹️ ▶️ John people, the most, then that’s the hardest part of the reviews to do, like getting the particular details of
⏹️ ▶️ John tech or software or compatibility or other things that I’m honestly ill
⏹️ ▶️ John equipped to do because I don’t have a computer lab here. Like I only ever had to loaner hardware for one year’s
⏹️ ▶️ John review. Right? I just have the computers that I have and I do what I can. And that was fine in the early days
⏹️ ▶️ John of the web when no one knew what the heck they were doing. We’re all just like banging on keyboards like monkeys trying to, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John make something happen. Right? But these days, there are professional organizations that
⏹️ ▶️ John have people dedicated to lab testings and experience doing battery tests. When
⏹️ ▶️ John I had to do the battery testing for Mavericks, that was miserable. There’s no way in hell I did
⏹️ ▶️ John as good a job as an Anand Tech review. I couldn’t. I don’t have the experience. Those guys do it all the time.
⏹️ ▶️ John They have a system. They have their own custom applications. They can test 17 different computers against
⏹️ ▶️ John each other because they have all those computers. I couldn’t do that because I don’t have those computers. the hardest work
⏹️ ▶️ John and I think it has the least value for people who are reading my reviews because people who are reading my reviews it’s like they
⏹️ ▶️ John want me to get that right and it needs to be there but they’re reading it for like you know
⏹️ ▶️ John the the sort of like criticism or insight or historical context or
⏹️ ▶️ John uh also like uh technical background on things where it’s like you know if you read my reviews
⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re kind of an aspirational thing where you’re like I want to be the type of nerd who understands everything in this review
⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t yet and so I can follow these links to do it and there’ll be a section in you know five years ago about Unix
⏹️ ▶️ John permissions and I’m not that familiar with Unix but I’m an old-time Mac user and I would like someone to
⏹️ ▶️ John explain to you what the hell Unix permissions are nestled in the middle of a big giant OS 10 review
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a lot of the things that people say hey I remember reading your view and I remember the section on whatever was the first time
⏹️ ▶️ John I learned about whatever and it’s like I sneak those things into the review and those are the fun parts to write about just
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like things that I already know well that are just background information for the thing or or you
⏹️ ▶️ John know talking about the UI criticism and stuff like that those are easier to write
⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s where most of the value is but that other stuff is so much harder to write and people seem to
⏹️ ▶️ John care less and less about it so I was you know like I feel like the time of my style of review
⏹️ ▶️ John has come and gone and now it is swung in opposite directions where you have the super technical review
⏹️ ▶️ John which I never was and the super soft touchy-feely review which I could kind of do but it actually interests
⏹️ ▶️ John me a little bit less like I wanted to do the the the format of my review
⏹️ ▶️ John and the way it’s sort of structured and the parts that it makes it’s kind of like a motley type thing where it’s got
⏹️ ▶️ John all these parts you wouldn’t think mixed together but that’s the mix that I wanted and that’s what I did and I did it and refined
⏹️ ▶️ John that form and I feel like that’s it and I feel like that form has less value to the reader these days
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s less important to the reader and it’s less interesting to me because I feel I’ve done it, you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you know, you are more critical on your own work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than I would venture to say probably anybody else in the audience is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I can see where you’re coming from of like, you know, you’ve done this, it’s done,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, time for something else.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and plus like reviewing a single product for some, like even if you even if I was like, I’m a full time professional product reviewer, which I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not and have never been again. But even if I was, would you want to keep reviewing the same product like year after year
⏹️ ▶️ John you want to review different things you want to branch out you want to do different styles of reviews like if this was actually my full-time job i would
⏹️ ▶️ John have grown tired of this long ago because it was only like a once yearly thing i could tolerate it for longer
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s like you know i want some variety too right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey i’m sad john i’m sad it wasn’t that long ago that we were making videos about getting our fingers
⏹️ ▶️ Casey um I’m ready to read your review and now it’s a time long gone.
⏹️ ▶️ John Get your ears ready to hear me complain.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco My ears are always ready for that, John. Amen.
⏹️ ▶️ John just made an unintentional gaming reference. Congratulations, Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is the new twist on the John makes a reference that nobody gets. Now Marco is making a reference that nobody gets.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Including me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, he said his ears are ready.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Still nothing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I don’t get it, but you made it. Someone in the chat room will. Is this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like when Americans try to speak English to non-English speakers just by repeating themselves slowly and loudly?
⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’s just another reference.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, what else is awesome these days?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our final sponsor this week is Backblaze. Go to backblaze.com slash
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP. Backblaze is online backup. Now, I have been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using this forever. Long before they were a sponsor, I’ve been using Backblaze. I’ve tried
⏹️ ▶️ Marco other ones out there. Backblaze is by far my favorite. In so many ways, it is great. So first of all, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is unlimited and unthrottled. So for five bucks a month,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you get unlimited disk space. That’s it, five bucks a month, unlimited disk space. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t believe how they can do this. I don’t know how, because I’ve, between me and my wife, they get 10 bucks a month,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because we have one computer each, and we have something like four terabytes in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a lot. And they probably don’t make money on us, to be honest, but they still offer it. Five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bucks a month, unlimited space per computer. Really, really great. Now, if you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have online backup, I really, I have to urge you to do it. There are so many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems that this protects you from. If you just have like a local time machine thing or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a clone that you occasionally remember to update, first of all, online backup is continuous. When things are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changed, they can be uploaded immediately if you want to. They can really be quite significant
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gains there. And there’s a whole class of problems that online backup protects you from.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So anything that happens that would affect electronics in both your computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in the time machine drive plugged into it, say, or the clone plugged into it, you are protected from all those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco classes. So things like electric surges, if you have a lightning strike or whatever. Things
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like floods, if let’s say you’re in an apartment and the person above you floods their bathroom and it floods into your apartment
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and drips water all over your computer and everything breaks. that will probably kill your external hard drive too.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Protects you from that. Fires, theft, all sorts of possible problems that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco online backup protects you from. It’s a nice fail safe. You know, you don’t have to replace
⏹️ ▶️ Marco local backup with it. In fact, I recommend that you don’t. But it is really nice to have as an ultimate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fail safe. Of like, if everything, if all the equipment I have gets harmed or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stolen or somehow destroyed or hurt, I always have that online backup as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a fail safe. five bucks a month, you can’t go wrong. Now, as back
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Backblaze specifically, they have over 100 petabytes of data backed up in their data centers.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Restoring is easy, they have an online interface you can do on the web, or they also have a mobile
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app with iOS or Android, so you can actually go in and you can restore one file with the mobile app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just to get it on your phone. So if you’re on vacation somewhere, you’re away from your computer or whatever, you can get a file off your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer through Backblaze. You can also restore, of course, whole directories, drives, whatever you want.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Backblaze runs native on the Mac and on Yosemite, and of course, they always update.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They even, on launch day, they had a dark mode Yosemite icon. Like, if you run Yosemite
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in dark mode, you probably know, like, half your menu things didn’t have icons. Many of them probably still don’t. Backblaze
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is there on day one. They keep up to date. You’re never, like, upgrading to a new OS, and then, oh, Backblaze isn’t ready yet. It’s still gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco break or be weird. Nope, they’re always ready on day one. It doesn’t use, like, Java or anything else. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all native code. It runs natively at full speed. It’s not too hard on your CPU.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s smart about not being too hard on your bandwidth. Really a very, very, very good service. Very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good app. I can’t say enough good things about Backblaze. There’s no gimmicks. There’s no add-ons. Five bucks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a month, unlimited space. It is as simple as that. Get a risk-free,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no credit card required trial, which is a really nice thing. No credit required a real
⏹️ ▶️ Marco free trial at backblaze.com slash ATP backblaze.com
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP really go right now it is it is seriously very very easy to get set up and it is so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice to have the peace of mind for just five bucks a month that all your stuff is backed up and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really great so definitely check it out backblaze.com slash ATP thanks a
⏹️ ▶️ John lot one more thing on backblaze did you see the blog post they had this year on their on
⏹️ ▶️ John their always excellent backblaze blog where they talk about their hard drive failures and stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John I love those posts. So this one was about like a crop of Seagate three terabyte drives they
⏹️ ▶️ John bought sometime around the Thailand tsunami time.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s just the investigation of what went wrong is one thing, but just listen to this. And I would,
⏹️ ▶️ John they buy thousands of drives, first of all, right? And they say in their experience, 80% of the drives they buy are still
⏹️ ▶️ John working four years after they buy them. But with this particular crop of drives, just 10%
⏹️ ▶️ John of the drives were still working four years. Oh my God. So like they bought a bunch of these and was
⏹️ ▶️ John like, yeah, they’re like, okay. And then all of a sudden, like around year two, like just massive amounts of them failed at once. It’s like the nightmare scenario.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, if you buy a hard drive and it goes bad before you think it does, they bought thousands of hard drives. Like 90%
⏹️ ▶️ John of them were dead in four years. That is tough. Anyway, it’s a great blog post. We’ll put the link in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, what else do we want to talk about, about WWDC? I
⏹️ ▶️ John was gonna say like to get back to the OS 10 review, so how does this affect my decision? It does affect it because it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John if I don’t, uh, you know, win the lottery, I’m not going to get a press pass because last year I got the
⏹️ ▶️ John press pass through Ars Technica who I was writing a review for. I’m not doing that again this year. And last Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John wants to give me a press pass for ATP, which I’ll gladly accept. But anyway, um, I don’t have
⏹️ ▶️ John a reason to be there other than and recreation and seeing people, right? And so
⏹️ ▶️ John that changes my calculus of whether I would go or not because there’s no quote
⏹️ ▶️ John unquote work related reason for me to be there. It would be entirely social and vacation. Really, I want to go to
⏹️ ▶️ John the sessions. I want to get that experience of being able to go there and enjoy them
⏹️ ▶️ John without having homework, so to speak. So that does factor into my decision
⏹️ ▶️ John of whether I will go out there for a shorter period of time, for the whole time, or not at
⏹️ ▶️ John all, if I don’t happen to get a ticket.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s also, I think it will change everyone’s calculus also that hotel prices seem to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have gone up this year, noticeably.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like everything seems to be more expensive because, like the plane ticket I’m sure is gonna be terrible too, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t already buy my plane ticket because I’m waiting to see if I get the lottery, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, like usually for this thing, usually the hotel is the biggest cost. Often
⏹️ ▶️ Marco matching or surpassing the cost of the conference ticket itself. So you’re looking at like $2,000 for the hotel or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the week and it’s 1,600 for the ticket, you know, 3,600. Then you’re, you know, the plane ticket, you’re probably looking at another four to 800,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco depending on, maybe more if you’re coming from internationally. So you’re looking at like, you know, $4,500 worth of base
⏹️ ▶️ Marco expenses that you incur while you’re there, plus you gotta take vacation days. So I can totally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see why this would, like, as these costs
⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m not getting any of this money back. Like, ours would pay for my travel and my ticket. Or in the case of a
⏹️ ▶️ John press pass, you know, Apple would pay for the ticket. Like, there is no reimbursement. There
⏹️ ▶️ John you know what I mean? I’m willing to go out of pocket for it, like, despite the fact that it’s ridiculously expensive. Fine, but like, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I hope we can get you there, because I think it would be a shame if you were not there. Yep. However, for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people who choose not to go because it’s very expensive, I totally can understand
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, well, we’ll see. You know, something I’ve been thinking about is what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey happens if John, you don’t get a ticket, if Marco, you don’t get a ticket
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then I get a ticket because we’ve already established earlier in this show that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t do well with missing out on things, apparently this is like a new discovery for me, but, um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t, I almost wonder if that would be not worse, but bad. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would still absolutely go to the conference and I would still try to learn as much as I can because I enjoy it so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey much and I always get I always feel like so amped up on the way home about all the awesome new stuff I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey learned and about what’s coming from Apple but I would really to some degree I would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be a little bit bummed if if I was the only one that got a ticket because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then I’d be missing out on all the fun things that maybe you guys would be doing or just Marco or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John no I wouldn’t be doing any fun things so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco all the fun things
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco would be doing good call
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no I mean I I think what would happen is that if John doesn’t get a ticket, I bet he’s not going, right? I mean, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, I bet that’s what happens. If I don’t get a ticket, then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll go and I’ll see you at night. And then I will walk by you in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the keynote line at 9.30 a.m. Yes,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco When I have just woken up and I’ll have a fresh cup of coffee, which you don’t like anyway. Maybe I’ll walk by with like a fresh, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, vodka or whatever you drink at. 9.30? I don’t know, whatever. It’s something to make you feel jealous. How
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John orange juice?
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what the alt-conf people do. The
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco people who don’t go to the
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann conference,
⏹️ ▶️ John they just stay out until 5am, wake up drunk like, yep, WWDC.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, they can stream the keynote live at 10am when they have just woken up for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that purpose and not having woken up at like 5.30 to go get online. So that’s what will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happen. You will do the homework for the rest of us by going to the conference and going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the sessions. And that’s it. I mean, I would feel bad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I get a ticket and you don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steven Connelly Oh, and ditto. I’d like to, I would feel guilty if I got a ticket and you didn’t, because you could make a very reasonable
⏹️ ▶️ Casey argument that you deserve it more. And I’m giving air quotes here. But I mean, it very well,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you could make a very valid argument that you are actively developing iOS apps. So you should have the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ticket more than I should.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steven Boll Yeah, but like I was talking to our friend underscore David Smith about this, how much more value
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you get out of being there in person than if you just watch the sessions as they live stream
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and do that? And so the biggest value is, you know, there’s some socialization
⏹️ ▶️ Marco aspects of seeing people in the conference center and the various like spontaneous meetings you have there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Academically the biggest value is probably the labs. There are some sessions that are not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco live streamed or videoed, like the lunchtime sessions are usually not released on video and the videos
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also the videos edit out any periods of applause or laughter
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and usually in the videos usually you can’t see the presenter it only shows like it’s just video of the slides
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and any demos that take place so you do miss a lot of like the the nuance
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the presentation but for the most part you’re missing the socialization and the labs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I have had very good experiences in the lab so far however However, this year
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t really have any really big pressing questions I have for the lab right now.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you wanna know how to make overcast for the new Apple TV, right? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, we’ll see if that’s a thing. But yeah, in reality, if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I get a ticket, I’ll be very happy, I will use it as much as I possibly can use a ticket.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco If I don’t get a ticket, I will be bummed, but I will still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a really good week. You know?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. It does, it is kind of inconvenient, like if you go with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a group of friends or coworkers every year, it is really awkward that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever since demand started really outstripping supply a couple years ago, now you have these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco split crews where you have like, oh well, only one of us got in, or everyone got
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in except that one guy, or something like that. It certainly causes social pressures
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and weird things, I think.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is where it pays off to be anti-social, because us anti-social introverts are in
⏹️ ▶️ John our element when we are not in a group. Oh, I guess I have to splinter off on my own and go through a series
⏹️ ▶️ John of sessions all by myself and not talk to anybody. Aw. That’s paradise.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and you were great, because you would always go to the Mac-only sessions that nobody else went to. I know, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John nobody in those rooms anymore. It’s just me and a bunch of lonely Mac developers. Yeah, no, those
⏹️ ▶️ John are fun. And you’d be sitting, like the not-well-populated ones are great. You’d be sitting there
⏹️ ▶️ John and Craig Federico would come in and sit two seats over to you. You know, like, just, hey, it’s just five people
⏹️ ▶️ John here listening to this talk about some Mac framework that no one cares about because iOS is the new hotness, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I will. I think it’s important to point out, though, that for the last couple of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey years, I feel like the three of us have spent a fair bit of time critiquing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and really complaining about the WWDC ticket process. And granted,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’re not all bitter right now because we don’t know if we’re getting tickets or not, but I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think this is probably as good a process as they can really get for a situation where like Marco said,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey demand desperately out out outweighs the supply.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well there was the rumor about them using a bigger venue. Do you remember that? Like oh they’re going to use north and south and not west
⏹️ ▶️ John and and therefore the supply will be slightly increased and that turns out not to be the case
⏹️ ▶️ John as far as we know, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s correct. That would be good, but that would potentially change
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the feeling of the show. I feel like I’m coming across
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little snobby and get off my lawn and you know what, oh well. But part of the magic of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey WWDC is that it’s the right amount of people, I think,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so that when you have, like when we go, I personally know maybe 50
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people there, generally speaking. And it’s not unreasonable or rare
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for me to see most of those 50 people in and out of the sessions throughout the day. And if the conference
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was 10 times bigger just for argument’s sake, then I may not see those people. And just like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’ve been saying, Marco, part of the beauty of WWDC is those impromptu conversations that you have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with friends that you do and don’t know in the halls in between sessions. And so, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, I’m sure it would probably be for the greater good if it was bigger, but it would definitely feel different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, ultimately it’s what you make of it. And if you go,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s such a big community now that anything that any
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of us say about it is not representative of the whole. There’s so many people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are iOS developers. There are so many people there who we don’t know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who don’t know us, who aren’t… It isn’t just one big community. It’s a bunch of small
⏹️ ▶️ Marco communities. So if you go and seek out a certain group or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your friends or people you want to talk to or have business discussions with or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can find them. If you’re looking around randomly, like in front of Moscone looking for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco somebody in particular, you’re going to have a hard time with it. But that’s true whether you get in or not. That’s true whether
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know how many people are there or not. Really I think it’s just what you make of it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That made no sense. out to our three sponsors this week, Automatic, Squarespace, and Backblaze
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will see you next week.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann and T. Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-R
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Accidental, tech podcast so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So in the last week, Apple has done all this crazy stuff with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Watch and Tryons and we’re all talking about bands. Meanwhile, they also like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco solved photos. Did they? And that’s like the least paid attention to. They released
⏹️ ▶️ John photos, let’s just say that. Did they solve photos?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I haven’t used it that heavily yet. However, it did import my whole library and it seems
⏹️ ▶️ John We’re not supposed to be talking about it now. I’m gonna save it for next week.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, all right. I just think it’s funny. Photos, it’s like this massive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco challenge, this big problem of no one’s done this really right yet. And it looks like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple might have done exactly that and released it this week, and almost nobody noticed.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there was a lot of reviews about it. There were a lot of previews for it. I think Apple was good about, with the
⏹️ ▶️ John public beta of it and the beta of iCloud Photo Library, and then when it actually came
⏹️ ▶️ John out, like I felt like it was pretty well covered, but it is one of those topics that we’ll keep because this is like a
⏹️ ▶️ John long-term thing. And we’ve talked about photos forever and we’ve talked about photos and the features that it provides. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now it’s just down to like, okay, the thing came out, how does it work? And I think we’ll save that for next week because
⏹️ ▶️ John I will have many things to say about it. And I made these nice notes and we’ll just leave them in there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Fair enough. What is this thing, the draft generator thing?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, this may or may not make it into the final show Cause it’s kind of boring, but, um, I was curious
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your input from the two of you. So I wrote recently
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a draft generator for my site. So the idea is when I write for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my site on my primary computer, I’ll, I have an in an instance of node running
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it basically an instance of my entire site running on my local computer. So I’ll write a bit, I’ll go
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to Safari. I’ll refresh the page, see how it looks. But occasionally, not often, but occasionally I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will be writing a blog post on my iPad or on Aaron’s computer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something else that I can’t even think of. And I want to be able to preview
⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly how this markdown will look rendered on the site.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I wrote this draft generator, which all it is is a big, huge text area
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a button that says render draft. So you paste your markdown in the big text area, you hit the render
⏹️ ▶️ Casey draft button, and it will render the draft and it looks at a glance like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a real post. Now, because it looks like a real post,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t necessarily want to make this draft generator public
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in that I don’t want anyone to be able to just slam some mark down onto my site and make
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it look like I wrote something. Am I being paranoid? Absolutely. But just bear with me here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, what do I do to prevent malicious use for something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that really is fairly inane to begin with? What I’ve chosen to do is use
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a semi-peculiar URL that I know I’ll remember, but I don’t think people would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey necessarily stumble on, so it’s, you know, the textbook security by obscurity.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I was curious, I don’t want to do like a full-on auth system because it’s just a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey draft, who cares? You
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t need a full on, just do basic auth. It’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s what I do online.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s better than nothing, right? Well, but why bother? Because it’s- Because basic auth
⏹️ ▶️ John is better than security through obscurity. Slightly, but you know, he’s not even using
⏹️ ▶️ John HTTPS, so like whatever, but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you know, it’s still better than
⏹️ ▶️ John like, they won’t guess my URL.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s, and I was just curious if you guys had any more interesting and more clever and less
⏹️ ▶️ John You could do real auth. I mean, you wrote the code for the site. You could do real auth on it too. Like, that’s a fun
⏹️ ▶️ John little exercise if you wanna do that. But basic auth is like, you don’t have to write the code for it. Just let the lousy
⏹️ ▶️ John browser do the thing that it does.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, basic auth with HTTPS is like really no worse than a lot of systems
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, it’s fun to do it yourself. But I think the main thing I was thinking of, I know you’re saying it’s like different computers
⏹️ ▶️ John is the use case here, but this is the type of thing that I do offline. Like my hypercritical
⏹️ ▶️ John posting system is I write in BVedit and next to the BVedit window that I’m writing in, I have a real-time live
⏹️ ▶️ John preview with my site template showing it exactly how it will look in context on my site through the magic
⏹️ ▶️ John of BVedit’s preview filters and templates and all the other crazy-ass features that BVedit has.
⏹️ ▶️ John It lets me, I don’t have to click a button to render draft. As I’m typing, I see exactly what it’s going to look like
⏹️ ▶️ John right next to where I’m typing in real-time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, and that’s basically what I’m doing 99% of the time. It’s not real-time,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have to go and hit refresh, but that’s basically what it is. But what had happened
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was I’d written the Apple Watch post, I believe on my iPad, if memory serves,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I had done my best to guess at what it would look like by just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey looking at a generic markdown preview. But as it turns out, there were a couple of minor formatting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey issues here and there that I really wanted to tweak, including an image that went wrong. And so I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really wanna be able to see it on the site. And so again, what I, you know, I figure, well,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just eat the markdown, run it through the rendering pipeline and call it a day.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But even though I don’t think anyone would likely do anything nefarious with this, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey still, I feel a little exposed by having it out there. And I guess basic auth
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is really the right answer. And God knows there’s probably, if it’s not built into Node, there’s probably some 300,000
⏹️ ▶️ Casey line package I can get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco from MPM that’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Casey solve this problem for me. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. header and it’s like it’s pretty simple if you need to do it yourself it’s not that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey true I don’t know just I was curious if you guys any had any clever ideas or if you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought I was being insane for even trying to put this behind off
⏹️ ▶️ John my question is when the hell did the navigation item in your toolbar change to creep
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s always been there
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t like that also I keep crashing your site yeah don’t don’t type nothing in the
⏹️ ▶️ John field and it rendered raff you a JavaScript error. It’s the first thing I did.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can’t I can’t get anything to render.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but that’s part of the problem is that you probably are missing metadata. See, and this was designed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only for me. So you’re probably missing a bunch of metadata that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know to include, but nobody else would.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, let’s get back to creep. Why is that item called creep? You’re trying to say that by by anyone wanting
⏹️ ▶️ John to know about anything that you do that is creepy, therefore click the creep button to find out what podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve appeared and that’s not creepy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just I wanted something more interesting than Appearances, did you click the link? Did you see what the slug is?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t it’s not stalking You want people listen to you on podcast?
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s why you’re on podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and now for a regularly scheduled segment of making fun of cases website implementation details
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, seriously. This is not an implementation, this is copy editing. We need Faith on here to write some good
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann copy
⏹️ ▶️ John Faith would not put creep as one of the main nav items, guaranteed.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s probably true. See, I think it’s tongue-in-cheek and funny, but I can see what you’re saying, that maybe that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t come across exactly how
⏹️ ▶️ John to. You’re just undercutting yourself, Casey. We’re here to tell you that you should not
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey be. Have we met? Of course I am. This is what I do.
⏹️ ▶️ John Who’s going to be? Is it going to be you and Steve on the podcast to see who can undercut themselves
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, I think that’s the plan at some point.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think you haven’t beat well of course that will make you feel better and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Goodness well the chat room is Somewhat coming
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to my defense, but but your logic is is is sound for sure
⏹️ ▶️ John it is an expression of your personality I’ll give you that, but I feel like this like you don’t need to be you don’t need
⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t need to be sabotaging yourself or like You should be promoting yourself. This site is all
⏹️ ▶️ John about you. It’s caseylist.com for crying out loud. It should be all about the awesome things that
⏹️ ▶️ John Casey List does and how awesome they are.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What would you use if not appearances, which not only is a long word, but it’s what everyone uses.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I want it to be slightly original.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I mean, you have lots of options there. Like you just, I have my appearances off
⏹️ ▶️ John of my about page. I don’t have it as a top level item, but I don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say there’s nothing wrong with the word appearances because if that’s what I’m looking for,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would never think to click on a link that says creep.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s an interesting point.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I wouldn’t know what that was going to be, is like, am I going to see a creep? Is to say that I am a creep,
⏹️ ▶️ John I click on there, and yeah, it’s like hamburger navigation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is that a verb? It’s like, do I want to creep right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey now? It is, it is meant as a verb, actually, all kidding aside. You know, it’s like the kids these days say.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that’s like, it’s like creeping forward. It’s like, I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that I would necessarily.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, the kids will, I think the kids will get, the creep is I got what it was about too but maybe it’s only because I know Casey
⏹️ ▶️ John and I know what must be buried under that link but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh actually uh tte pass I probably butchered that said elsewhere
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s not bad I appearances I think is more direct but elsewhere isn’t a bad option
⏹️ ▶️ John appearances like you just did a conference talk like that’s an appearance
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey called appearances yeah
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah I don’t I just I don’t think it looks good if I think I did try that at some point I thought there was
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, you might have to look for a shorter word to go to thesaurus or something. You need to A-B-Tetsus
⏹️ ▶️ John obviously to see, you know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s probably a node package
⏹️ ▶️ John for that. We put a picture of the pictures of celebrities in unflattering poses. Do people click on that more or less
⏹️ ▶️ Casey page? Manifestation. I’m looking at thesaurus for appearance.
⏹️ ▶️ John Speaking of creep and manifestation.
⏹️ ▶️ John I have been shopping for home improvement things online I’ve been shopping for lamps outdoor
⏹️ ▶️ John lamps online not shopping but just like looking searching and everything and now
⏹️ ▶️ John every web page I go to is covered with the same 900 pictures of lamps that
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve looked at like I don’t understand like I never knew how pervasive whatever it is this ad network
⏹️ ▶️ John that has my number now it’s like on every site I’m like here too seriously the lamps they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John here again they’re everywhere it is unbelievable and it’s the same lamps I’m like I’ve already looked at them it’s just like
⏹️ ▶️ John you know I’m just gonna have to enable adblocker or something like now I understand the people who
⏹️ ▶️ John you know it’s like they’re ugly I liked it better when I was being randomly advertised to with whatever they were doing before
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess it still beats the terrible line drawings of one weird trick
⏹️ ▶️ John fat belly business things I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann really hate those
⏹️ ▶️ John but the lamps are our close second man the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco web sucks these days oh it’s so bad all this stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it It just seems like everyone’s in such desperation to try to increase their ad prices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and their returns. And webpages just look awful to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me now. So many pages I go to now, there’s very few holdouts that still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have tasteful, reasonable layouts and don’t have those awful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco clickbait ads on them and everything, it’s really sad.
⏹️ ▶️ John I just wanna see ads, show me ads for Asus laptops like SSDs, like
⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann I’m willing to say ads for like some, I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t click on them, but I look at them and sometimes they’re like, oh yeah, maybe our SSDs are getting cheaper. Like the ads
⏹️ ▶️ John work in that way, but I know that I’ve been searching for lamps, but that doesn’t mean that’s it, your whole world is lamps.
⏹️ ▶️ John How long is this gonna last? For the next three years of my life, eventually I’m gonna buy some lamps and then I will be done, but
⏹️ ▶️ John these ads will still be like lamp, lamp, everywhere I go. It is just unbelievably
⏹️ ▶️ John pervasive. I never would have called, like I don’t even know which sites I’m going to, but it’s like every site I go to,
⏹️ ▶️ John every link I tap in like Twitter or something, blamps.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of creep. I’ve never in the past been tempted to install an ad blocker.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Modern webpages are getting so bad and modern ads are getting even more and more intrusive.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like there’s so many more like hover over, pop over kind of things now that like, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco loads the page for two or three seconds, then it pops over a thing over the content and you have to dismiss it. Yeah, good
⏹️ ▶️ John the little X with your finger.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, right.
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that is not the X is I want to go to the ads website.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah exactly I mean it’s so it’s getting so bad now it’s even sites that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco used to be that used to have higher standards now for whatever reason whether
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s good reasons or not they they don’t or they can’t maintain those same standards and so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like otherwise good sites now have these even worse ads on them and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting so horrible like I I don’t I don’t like the idea
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of running an ad blocker but I’ve never been closer to doing it than I am now just because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is really getting difficult to read the web.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know it’s weird because I write software for the web for a living
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but when I search for lamps and find lamps all over every ad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey enabled website I ever visit it creeps me out. God does it creep me out. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s weird and now I’m thinking even more that I need to change the word creep on my header
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What about sightings
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sightings doesn’t really work for audio, but most of your appearances are oh
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re not Bigfoot Wow Sasquatch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what you want is a word that is descriptive But that is not like arrogant or pompous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sounding how about it works?
⏹️ ▶️ John That is arrogant and pompous sounding. That’s my best arrogant and pompous sounding.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I like Elsewhere because it is not arrogant and pompous sounding. Appearances is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit on the bad side of that.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not, it’s accurate. He just gave a conference talk. That is literally an appearance.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but sightings is more arrogant because sightings is like other people have done this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me. Other people have spotted me in these places. Whereas like appearance is like here’s where I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been and people have looked at me. And elsewhere is just here’s other things I have done.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, although as thinkdiff is pointing out in the chat, the title of the page is appearances coincidentally.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I wanted a different word in the header and I think elsewhere might be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the winner. Now the problem is if we leave this in the show, by the time everyone goes and looks at my website, they’re gonna be like, what are they talking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about? It already says elsewhere or whatever the case may be, but that’s all right.