112: The Problem Is You

09 Apr 2015

Apple Watch reviews and picks, and get your modern web design off of our lawn.

Episode Description:

• Follow-up:
  • There are some nice people on Twitter
  • MacBook Pros and external displays
    • Specs page
    • Grandma's Boy's seat/display setup
  • Scrubbing streaming video
  • Koenigsegg "One to One"
  • PowerPC Macs with x86 hardware compatibility, PC users, and the power button
  • Meta-discussion about the show format
    • In-N-Out Secret Menu
    • Upgrade #30
• Scroll hijacking and modern web design
  • The Verge Apple Watch Review
  • iMac with Retina 5K display splash page
  • Myst
• Apple Watch reviews
  • Nilay Patel at The Verge
  • Joanna Stern at The Wall Street Journal
  • Joshua Topolsky at Bloomberg
  • John Gruber at Daring Fireball
  • Ben Bajarin at Techpinions
  • Other links
    • Display PostScript
    • Apple Watch Guided Tours
• Purchase intentions
  • Casey "definitely won't" be getting the 42mm Space Black Link Bracelet (Suuuure. —Ed.)
  • Marco is preordering the 42mm Stainless with Black Leather Loop
  • John won't be getting the 42mm Space Gray Sport, but everyone else in the geek world probably will

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What was the other one you liked about the watch, John? It can’t be the one. I like that because it sounds

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, you know, the one as in the person you’re going to marry. This watch can’t be the one. Not like the Matrix? No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not that one. That would work too. The way you get the watch to be the one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is by telling it that it’s not the one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I understood that reference. Boom. We have a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not a tremendous amount of follow up today. Everyone look at the time. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think we should I think we should start by Genuinely saying that we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey got a lot of really really lovely and wonderful feedback with regard to our Twitter conversation

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that happened in the after show in the last show and And I hope I don’t sound sarcastic because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I am really being genuine we got a ton of really great feedback and even even the feedback

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that I saw that was was constructively criticizing us,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was constructive, and I was appreciative of that. We had a lot of drive-by

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey tweet thanks and tweet love, and that was extremely refreshing,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey given that we spoke a lot about drive-by tweet hate. So I just wanted to thank everyone, that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you guys were really kind to us last week, and I’m pretty sure I speak for the other two to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey say, it’s very kind of you and we really appreciate it. Yep, cool. All right.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey We also got a lot of feedback about how many external displays

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey modern Macs can drive and I don’t we got this from several different

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey people, but I think just moments ago We got a pretty good summary John. Do you want to go over

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I think this was the most popular correction from last week Everybody just wanted to come in and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John say that they have a MacBook Pro and that they have more than two external displays on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it Some people were sending us pictures of their setup. Some people were confused

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about which MacBook Pro we were talking about in the last feedback, talking about the most recent models, but even

⏹️ ▶️ ^John among those people they sent here, I bought, I had the most recent model and here it is with, you know, more

⏹️ ▶️ ^John than two external displays. What’s up with that? And so of course, if you go to the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John MacBook Pro specs page at apple.com, for both the 13 inch and 15 inch, it says,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it talks about their external display capabilities says up to two external displays up to two external

⏹️ ▶️ ^John displays for both of them so what’s the deal here and Nathan Anderson

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is not the only person who sent in this information but it happened to come in late breaking and it was a reasonable summary

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the deal as far as I can tell based on all the people who sent in both their pictures and their information is that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you have a 13 inch MacBook Pro you can only do two external displays

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you have a 15 inch you can do more than two if you have the discrete graphics with a Nvidia chip

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and only two if you have the integrated graphics. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John some strangeness about past models, whether they could or couldn’t do integrated, so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it seems like the the Apple’s page is giving you a conservative answer. If you read that and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think you can only use two external displays and you happen to get one with discrete graphics and you can do more than two, you’ll be pleasantly surprised, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’ll never be disappointed because the up to two external displays is true for all the models and if you can do more,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I mean, maybe it’s not even officially supported according to Apple, but it does work. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there we go for all the people who wrote in you know, you’re not crazy, your particular model may be able

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to do more than two, but it is apparently a variation that Apple does not consider

⏹️ ▶️ ^John important enough to delineate on their customer facing spec page.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Also, let me just point out how amazing this is because it was only a few years ago when

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if you wanted to have more than one external display, so more than two displays total, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco had to have a Mac Pro. And usually with more than one video card.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So this is pretty amazing that ever since I believe the introduction of Thunderbolt, I don’t think the mini

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco display port line could daisy-chain them. I don’t know if that’s correct, but it’s only very, very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco recent since the era of Thunderbolt on all the MacBook and MacBook Pros that that you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have more than one external monitor hooked up. And that’s pretty amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, that is progress, man.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s good. They definitely have the external monitor high ground.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, god. We have some people at work who are trying to do, like, six

⏹️ ▶️ ^John external monitors. And they’re reaching, I’m not sure which limits they’re reaching, but basically, many

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the people who sit around me have reached the limit of what their machines can do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John output-wise, either physically speaking or GPU-wise. And it is comical to see where the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} limits are.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This is a little tiny machine with this huge array of displays on this crazy arm that puts them in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a big grid of five or six things. And what’s attached to that giant rat’s nest? A tiny little laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} Yeah, I mean, I think the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco actual limit of displays there is like sanity, desk space slash

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco arm capacity. You know, like, I mean, external monitors are kind of like cats.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like, you know, most people should have between zero and one And it’s really, really easy

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco once you have more than one to be like, well, what’s one more? I can have all this extra fur in my house.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Some people, no number of monitors is enough for them because they haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco adopted a system like yours, John, where they have some way to manage lots of windows on whatever space

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they’re given. No, they need more space, and they always need more space. And it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco oh, I have two, why not three? Oh, monitors are pretty cheap these days, why not add two more? and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco let’s get a double-decker arm. Now we can have eight, and it’s just never enough. Then all of a sudden you have 15 cats.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s like the physical incarnation of Spaces. They’re like, I’m gonna have one

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} monitor for iTunes, one monitor for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Safari, one monitor for my mail app, one monitor for a text editor that will be in portrait, but I’ll only ever have one document

⏹️ ▶️ ^John open at once because I use VI and relaunch it every time I want to edit a file, and one monitor open for my fun

⏹️ ▶️ ^John window. And they’ll pretend windows don’t exist, and if I need to have another window open, I need

⏹️ ▶️ ^John another monitor now because everything is full screen. These are probably ex-Windows users. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey God. All I know is I kind of, I want a rig, I would never do it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I want a rig that’s like six monitors, such a wall of monitors in front of me. I would get lost

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in it, but God, it sounds so awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You’ll never find your cursor, let me tell you. People have that at work. You can never find your cursor. You’d have to turn on the giant cursor mode

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that my mom uses.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey What was the setup that the really nerdy guy and grandma’s boy used? He had like a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey chair that was reclined and he had like two or three monitors pitched down

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at him or something like that. God, I’m gonna have to watch that movie again. You ever see that? That sounds like a back problem. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey trust me, it was like this whole pod thing that the dude had. Have you seen Grandma’s Boy, John? Do you know what I’m talking about?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I do not know what you’re talking about. Although I’ve seen people, I can picture the arrangement you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John describing because I’ve seen pictures on the internet of similar arrangements of people sort of reclining and having

⏹️ ▶️ ^John monitors suspended above them or the reverse where the monitors are below them they’re leaning face down. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John All not good. Ergonomically speaking, probably.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Does this count as a reference that I made that you didn’t get? I think so. Admittedly, it was a very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey shaky and poor reference,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but… Well, I mean, is it something that you had an expectation that I would get? Is this a staple of pop

⏹️ ▶️ ^John culture?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, yeah. Grandma’s Boy? Are you kidding? It’s a wonderful movie about computer geeks. All right, if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey say so. I’m going to count that as a win in the KC column. Anyway, we should probably move on.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And speaking of movies and video, John, why don’t you tell us about your whole scrubber conundrum?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I talked about that last week with the streaming television boxes and my big complaint,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John aside from the video not playing at all, is that any of these streaming television solutions, none of them

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do moving around in the content in a reliable manner.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I compared it to YouTube on a web browser, which sometimes is weird and flaky and the HTML5

⏹️ ▶️ ^John player may or may not be playing nicely with your browser. But there’s a little scrubber thing that you can, you know, the little circular handle

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the timeline and you can move to different positions. And the video moves around eventually.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And in these streaming television boxes, very frequently attempting to do anything with your position

⏹️ ▶️ ^John other than play at 1x speed, not only doesn’t work and results in a series of spinners

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or blank screens, but can very often lose your place. And then you check back to the beginning. This happens

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by the way, the worst case scenario is this is your children are on the couch watching a movie. 30 or 40 minutes in,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one of them accidentally sits on part of the remote

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} because you have too many Bluetooth remotes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or because they happened to get unlucky and it was still pointing at the TV. It starts to fast forward or rewind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or do something, do one of those actions and that throws the thing into a tizzy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and then you try to hit pause and hit play again but maybe it has gone too far forward or back or something and it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just loses its place. And now your kid is angry because they want the movie to resume playing where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it was but you’re back at the beginning of the movie and you can’t get to where they were even if you know the exact timestamp

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because hey how would you get there you would have to move the scrubber essentially to that position

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and you have no way of doing that because fast forward doesn’t work it just you know there’s no jump there’s no whatever so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this this little item in the follow-up was me just to emphasize that like I’m not asking for let me

⏹️ ▶️ ^John smoothly scan through while seeing the video go by really fast like the equivalent of video smart

⏹️ ▶️ ^John speed like I understand if there’s something transcoding down there It’s not like you can just magically

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slide forward and backward in time while seeing the video flash before your eyes at variable rates

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of speed when the video is actually being transcoded on the fly by some weak CPU and an ass in your basement

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or something, right? The minimum all I’m asking for is one, don’t lose

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my place no matter what I do. And to give me the ability to in sort of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John quick time player parlance or YouTube pounds, move the scrubber to an arbitrary position

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and start playing from there. I don’t have to see anything when that happens. Make the screen entirely black. In fact, I prefer that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I hate it when I can’t move the little scrubbery thing both on the desktop and on a streaming TV box

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where it says, No, no, no, no, you can’t. You can’t move that thing. You have to wait for me to to load some more thumbnails or stream

⏹️ ▶️ ^John some content or transcode things like just stop. Stop with the video entirely. I’m going to move

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the scrubber to a position. It’s going to change the timestamp in the corner. Change the timestamp by all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John means as I move the scrubber around, when I’m done I say now try to start playing from 30 minutes and 42

⏹️ ▶️ ^John seconds. Now you can resume whatever it is you were doing and people wrote in and tell me oh

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you don’t understand about B-frames and H.264 and blah blah blah like I understand that this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is also difficult but this I think is the minimum bar for any device that plays video.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Don’t lose my place and give me some way to start at an arbitrary location. Anything above and beyond that that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you want to do, fine. whatever it is you have to have to do to make that happen. Prescan

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all the movies to find offsets, find the closest offset to the thing that I picked and try to play from there and only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John show the picture once you get into it. Like whatever you got to do, do it. But I just want to emphasize that I’m not asking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the magic ability to see the video fly past my eyes at fast and slow speeds

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because I understand it’s very difficult. Of course, that would be nice and I’m hoping that will happen someday, but we’re very far from that now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Fair enough. All right. And how about the Koenigsegg and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the odd model name that none of us could figure out how you pronounce it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, apparently it’s like, we mentioned that it was like the ratio, one horsepower to one kilogram

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or whatever, but the name O-N-E colon enumeral one is pronounced one to one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not one one, although I like one one better. But anyway, for people who want to know, if you are considering buying,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what is it like, a 2.4 million, $3 million hypercar? It’s called the one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to one, not the one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey one. That just sounds like going to visit a psychiatrist’s office or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Let’s have a one-to-one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s your one-on-one. Do you have one-on-ones

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at work? I don’t think we call them that, but yes, I do have a meeting with- Check the parking lot.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh God, Marco. It’s so hard to be retired, isn’t it? But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey we have meetings with our immediate supervisors, which we call personal development

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey something, PDP, personal development planning, something like that. That’s worse. That sounds awful. Oh, it’s sufficiently

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey corporate-speaky, Which is funny because our company is all of 70 people or something like that, but yep,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that’s a thing

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} yikes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right power PC max and x86 hardware compatibility Yeah, one one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John person wrote with a story that I thought was funny we were talking about the rarity of these max that had x86 hardware

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in them and they were indeed rare and Martin wrote in to tell us about his experience

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with these things He had a set of the I forget which model it was But it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the power max 6100 case it was the first Mac to use this case you guys look at the picture that I linked There in the show

⏹️ ▶️ ^John notes. It was the pizza box Mac very wide very low

⏹️ ▶️ ^John optical drive in the middle floppy drive on the right and a hard drive on the left

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and They had a bunch of people who were PC users essentially using these because they sold

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a version of this with a different model number that had a go 486 inside

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it or maybe it was a Pentium or anyway some x86 chip inside it and they had a problem when these PC

⏹️ ▶️ ^John users would use these machines and I mean I don’t know if you if you read this feedback you probably did and spoiled

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the surprise but if you haven’t read the feedback Marco perhaps take a look at the picture and tell me

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well the show notes for it to a baby Marco has seen the show notes either looking at this picture

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what what problem might PC users have with this Mac

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey yeah as soon as I saw the picture I didn’t actually make it to the to the rest of the feedback to see

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey why the picture was being cited. And the moment I saw the picture, I knew exactly where this feedback was going.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, so I don’t know if people remember this, but it was just so long ago. The big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing about the Mac platform was that it had auto inject and auto eject

⏹️ ▶️ ^John floppy drives hardware wise. So auto inject meant that when you push the floppy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John disk in at a certain point, the mechanism would like suck it out of your hand and seed it. And auto eject

⏹️ ▶️ ^John means that the ejection was done by but initiated by

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the drive itself and in the operating system well

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and the ejection would be triggered by the wonderfully intuitive to PC users activity

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of dragging the disk that had all the important files on it to the trash that was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just a shortcut you can also select the disk and select eject from the file menu which was totally intuitive anyway yeah

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so you would initiate the the unmount essentially from the OS and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John unlike PCs where you could eject the disk at any time by pressing a button next to the thing and you know the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John OS might complain if you did that if you did it when the light was blinking then you may have hosed your data and all sorts of other things that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John relied on the user to sort of know when it’s safe to eject the disk. The Mac operating

⏹️ ▶️ ^John system always took control over mounted media and and you weren’t involved in the process of ejecting the disk

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from a hardware perspective. From a software perspective you unmounted the disk and the act of unmounting it also ejected it because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the mechanisms all had the ability to essentially spit the disk back out at you. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when PC users use this Mac they would see the floppy drive they would stick their disk in and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they did or didn’t notice the auto inject it might have been gone by then I don’t know anyway and they’d

⏹️ ▶️ ^John use their thing blah blah blah all right and when they were done with their disk they would do what all PC users do is I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John guess look at the look at the drive to see if there’s any blinking lights near it if there’s no blinking lights press the button to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John eject the disk. Unfortunately on this pizza box Mac the button that was in the lower

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right corner below the floppy drive was not a disk eject button there was no a disk eject button other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John than a little tiny hole that you can see there where you stick a paperclip to get it out when the thing freezes it was the power

⏹️ ▶️ ^John button to the entire machine so everybody when they were done and wanted to eject their floppy disk would press the power button the machine

⏹️ ▶️ ^John turned the entire machine off nice which which must have been

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hilarious but still in PC users at the time defense which I was one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if you look at this machine the CD ROM drive immediately adjacent to this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco has a physical eject button so it looks like two drives side-by-side

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with each with an eject button

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah if you’re coming from that other paradigm it does make sense although I mean there is a giant power symbol on the no

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} no

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco paradigm separate separately from the paradigm this is like a consistency design flaw which is that there

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is an eject button right next to it in in the spot you’d expect and so it looks like here

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know here’s the hole for discs here’s the hole for floppies here’s the eject button for discs here’s the eject button

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for floppies

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re very differently sized buttons and like I said one of them

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I believe you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John press if you press the optical drive button it wouldn’t actually eject because I believe the operating

⏹️ ▶️ ^John system had control over it there’s a hardware eject button on the optical drives on my Mac

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Pro to you just have to slide open the little guillotine doors and shove your little finger in there and you can find yeah

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and they also then they also don’t work on you know until the OS ejected but still. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re saying this is a problem with PC users. I’m saying this is a very confusing design for everybody.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, it wasn’t confusing for Mac users. It’s a paradigm thing. It’s like, do you think the operating system has control

⏹️ ▶️ ^John over floppy disks? Or do you think the user has control over it? And the right

⏹️ ▶️ ^John answer is to have the OS have control over it. But if you come from the other thing where you think the user has control over it, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John looking for a button and you’re going to hit whatever button you find. And that’s the only button that’s remotely near there so that’s the one you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gonna hit and then you’re gonna be sad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think the right answer is floppy disks were always awful and we’re so glad we’re past them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well anything with with uh even even thumb drives now I feel like we have the same exact problem

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we haven’t gotten rid of it people stick a thumb drive into a computer and like it mounts on a desktop and they drag files back and forth and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they just want to yank the thumb drive out and if you do that on a Mac it yells at you it says whoa whoa whoa whoa that was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not properly ejected blah blah blah lost data blah blah blah please plug back in blah blah blah but by then it’s too

⏹️ ▶️ ^John late. I do it with my cameras because some of my cameras can be unplugged at any time and other

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cameras have to be unmounted from iPhoto or whatever before they can be unplugged

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and I forget I forget which is which. And some importing programs will automatically eject the camera logically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco after it’s imported and some won’t. So that’s also another level of confusion

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} here. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there’s the power button on the camera. Even if you don’t unplug the USB cable, what if you just turn the power button on the camera that will also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John end effectively unmounted. Yep. Yep. Anyway, removable media is confusing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, and then the final piece of follow-up we have is a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Important service announcement for listeners of the show and I think John that you are

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey best equipped to handle this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I feel kind of bad talking about this. How many episodes are we in? We’re over a hundred right hundred and twelve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, so someone who entered attacks a TT ax in our feedback form as their name

⏹️ ▶️ ^John says that he’d been listening to the show and he’s using the iOS podcast app

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on an iPhone 6 and he says I have a feeling that listen to ATP and only ATP that the podcast app

⏹️ ▶️ ^John jumps around wildly within the episode first few times I thought it was because one edition had finished and it had

⏹️ ▶️ ^John jumped to the middle of the one before that I hadn’t finished but with the bombshell episode I’m certain that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I heard the outro and then again discussion about jobs versus cook and then about fabbing Ram

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and this leads me to suspect that there’s some evil commercial breaker chapter foo going on.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This person thought their podcast app was buggy. And this is a reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John conclusion, right? If you are new, especially if you’re new to the show, and I think we talked about this on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Twitter and a bunch of people replied. So I’ll spoil the secret

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s not really a secret. The format of the show is we talk about technology stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We have a bunch of sponsor breaks, then a song by Jonathan Mann plays where he reads

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out our Twitter handles and tells you where you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} and says

⏹️ ▶️ ^John now the show is over right he says now the show is over didn’t even mean to be in the whole the whole big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John deal and after that song is over the show continues often

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for a substantial period of time that’s what we call the after show uh

⏹️ ▶️ ^John i likened it in the show notes here to the secret menu at in and out knowing

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} that there’s an after show the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John secret menu in and out which by the way i’ve never been to i would like to try but have never been. Really? Yep, no, they’ve never

⏹️ ▶️ ^John been. I guess I’ve been in California, but I haven’t been to one of them when I was there. Anyway, it’s not really a secret menu.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Everybody knows about it. But if you really, really don’t know about it, it’s not going to occur

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to you that it exists. So if you really, really don’t know about the after show, when the song says now the show is over,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, you turn the thing off or go to the next podcast, right? You never know that there’s anything after it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think actually, that’s okay. If you want to stop listening to the show there, whether accidentally or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on purpose, I think that’s fine because the way we structure the show is we try to talk about all the things we’re going to talk about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Before the song and then after the song we feel like we are free to talk about whatever we want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whether that’s cars Something silly that we did but sometimes it’s also

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Reflecting on the show we just had and talking about the same talk. It’s from a different angle and maybe in a more casual

⏹️ ▶️ ^John way That’s the after show. I was just on upgrade with Jason Snell and we were talking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about the format of the show what distinguishes the after show from the rest of the show? Isn’t it just more of the same?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Sometimes it seems like that, but from our perspective, it’s like we feel like the show is over and now we are talking about,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t know, like even if we didn’t record it, we would probably have that same conversation after the show,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? But we do record it. And there’s also stuff that happens after the song that we don’t put in the show,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? So there is some distinction between the after show and then like the sort of stuff that’s just for the live

⏹️ ▶️ ^John listeners. But anyway, if you have been listening to the show or however many episodes and had no idea that after

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the song we kept talking, we do. And you can feel free to listen to it if you want

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} or not,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like whatever, right? You can listen however you want. But what I was surprised by on Twitter was many people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John said they had been listening to the show for like 20 episodes before they realized the show continued after the song. And that blows my

⏹️ ▶️ ^John mind, if only because like, the lazy thing to do is just like just let it keep playing, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John play your next podcast in your list rather than hit stop and manually delete the podcast or something like if you just let it play

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the song will end and we will continue talking so anyway we’re gonna do that again today we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} been doing this since the advent of the song

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think there’s the show there’s the song and there’s the after show and that is the podcast that you were

⏹️ ▶️ ^John listening to if you didn’t know that your mind is now opened

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco well and we also I mean we exacerbate this problem not only by never actually saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know oh we’ll see you in the after show like not by pre announcing it But also one common complaint

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that we get, especially from other listeners of the show who live in my house,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are that there’s no sound or anything

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to indicate when the actual after show ends, like when the actual episode file

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ends. There is no closing sound or goodbye. So it’s very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco easy to miss the end of one episode transitioning into the beginning of the next one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, yeah, that’s true. That is also true. I don’t particularly find that to be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a bad thing, but I can understand people not being confused by that. I guess what you can use

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is the visual marker of looking in your playback app when like the little playhead gets to the end and the new episode starts.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John There are audio markers for when we start talking about cars. And there’s an

⏹️ ▶️ ^John audio marker for when we mention HFS plus.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like the secret menu in In-N-Out, it is very similar. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you learn these things, and either by just listening to a lot of shows or being in the community of people listening to a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John shows, and it becomes just accepted as that’s the format of the show. But if you don’t know the things, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can still go there and order a burger and it tastes fine. Like, stop listening whenever you feel like you want to stop listening. But if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are unaware that we keep talking, we do, because we can’t shut up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know, there’s two interesting pieces here, to me anyway. The first is, for the three of you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that listen to the show that also look at the show notes, we clearly delineate

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that there is a post-show section that has usually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey links and bullet items that are in no way related to anything that we have said

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey thus far in the episode. And so maybe this is a lesson to everyone that you should consider

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey looking at the show notes that Marco and I work on every single week. Mostly you. Where can you Can you find the show notes,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Casey? You can find the show notes for your ATP program at ATP.fm

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey slash episode number, which in this case will be 112. So that’s ATP.fm

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey slash 112.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You’re supposed to sing the line from the song. It’s so informative.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, yeah, I can’t sing, but you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s right. That is really all you need to know. You literally can find them there. I believe in you. You can

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} even do this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John episode six months from now. I believe you can find them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That’s all that’s there like that is the only thing on the site

⏹️ ▶️ ^John exactly It’s a series of shows with numbers and show notes after them or if you’re in if you’re listening to this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an overcast you can Swipe up on the album art, but another thing that people don’t know apparently that’s not also my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco fault. Yeah, I Do blink the scroll indicator the way as system standard is like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco when the screen shows up But no one knows that and it’s really hard to it’s really easy to miss So yeah

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that that is a bad design on my part that I have yet to figure out how to resolve in a way that I don’t hate

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but once you know that it’s there like the after show if you’re using overcast and you’re looking at the now Playing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John screen the one that shows the big level meters and the big giant album art Just put your finger on that album art and slide

⏹️ ▶️ ^John upwards and you will see the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yep And then the other interesting thing to me that I find a little bit surprising this is kind of building on what you were saying John

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is we start the after show or the post show immediately

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey after the song ends this isn’t like a 1997 Secret Song at the end of the CD that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you have like a 30 minute track, 25 minutes of which is or 20 minutes of which is silence.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And then all of a sudden you have this new song 20 minutes after you thought the CD was over.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Like it’s immediate. So I agree with you that it’s a little kooky to me that people would

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey think, oh, the song’s over. Well, better go change my podcast and not just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey let it run its course. But you know, Or they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stop it because they don’t want to hear the song for the umpteenth time. They just, as soon as the song starts, they’re like, well, episode over. It is a reasonable

⏹️ ▶️ ^John assumption. So, uh, anyway, Attacks, uh, you’re a podcast player is almost certainly not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John broken. That is just the way we structure the show. Why we do it that way, I’m not entirely

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sure, but it is what we do and this is the show.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah. All right, let’s talk

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco about something that’s awesome. Our first sponsor this week is Igloo. Igloo is an intranet

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It basically revamped how you interact with documents, how you gather feedback and how you make changes. You

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can track changes, you can track who has read documents, you can require people to agree

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s like read receipts in email, but less annoying. This is very important for certain policies,

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. So we are recording this on Wednesday, April

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey 8th, and this morning at about eight o’clock in the One True Time zone,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the watch embargo was lifted. So we had a lot of reading to do, and I’m assuming,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Marco, that you read none of it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I actually read most of them. I read all the ones that I found so far. I really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco enjoyed the one at the Verge by Nilay Patel, even though he hates me, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco he really gave, his and Joanna Stern’s Wall Street Journal, those I think were my two favorites,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because they really gave a lot of the everyday usage, like what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco really are the pros and the cons to the everyday usage of these things. And there’s also,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco both of them had really good videos and really good pictures. So I was very impressed by these and I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco don’t know, what do you guys think of what you’ve seen so far? Like does this make you,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is it roughly what you expected? Does it make you more or less excited about the watch? Because one thing I noticed was that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco none of them really said, oh my god, this is amazing, it’s a blockbuster. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Almost all of them were like, yeah, it’s pretty good, it does certain things pretty well, certain things aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so great, it’s definitely a version one. What do you think?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know, I read a handful of them. I did not read Joanna Stern’s. I did read Neelay Patel’s, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I agree with you, Marco, that I thought that one was excellent. I liked the way that he

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey had phrased it, or kind of covered it from the perspective of here’s what I did throughout the day.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It also really made me feel gross that I kind of liked the scroll hijacking frames of video, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I know I should hate that, but I actually kind of liked it. Oh, I hated that so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco much. That’s the one thing, like, I was ranting about this to you privately earlier, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it, oh my god, modern web design drives me crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it used to be, back in the day of, I don’t know, five years ago, not that long ago,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it used to be that the most distracting things on a web page, it would make it difficult to read articles, were

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ads all over the sides and top. Now, the most distracting thing about web pages

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is the content, because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} jammed up with all this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco crazy design, scroll jacking, stuff animating in when you scroll and flying in and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s horrendous. Oh my god. It is so hard for me to read

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a modern… one of these over-designed webpages. It’s like these companies have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco way, way, way too much money and resources devoted to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco overproducing these articles when the reality is… If you would have put

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Nilay Patel’s article into John Gruber’s layout, it would have been just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as good. Like it gained nothing from having this giant

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like overwrought scroll jacking weirdly loading distracting animated

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco garbage all in and out and throughout it and and it wasn’t just him I saw the other one I saw one at Bloomberg

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that was pretty good by Josh Topolsky that one also had not as egregious but similar

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over designed issues. I don’t know why this is in style right now but… I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can tell you don’t you remember I was trying to remember the term for this but I think they were but they called splash things

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or entryways or gateways I’m I’ve mercifully forgotten this term when

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you made a site you had to have a screen that you had to go through to get to the site first the splash page

⏹️ ▶️ ^John designers wanted to show off and they wanted to they wanted to like establish their brand

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they were they were accustomed to the more linear kind of sort of linear storytelling thing where you have like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a title sequence in the front of your thing or you have a cover page for a for a magazine or a book or a title

⏹️ ▶️ ^John page for a magazine story. And they said, before anyone gets to my whatever, I want to show them

⏹️ ▶️ ^John our awesome logo and maybe it will be animated and maybe we sparkly stars around it. I have to click through the logo to get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John through it. Landing page, portal page, people are saying. Anyway, I almost don’t want to remember

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this because there was an epidemic and there was there was like a lot of people who are railing against this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Zeldin was one of them to say, this is not how you design the web. First of all, people can come to your content from anywhere. Second of all, just get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the content. Right. trend went away and people said you can’t do that because it makes no sense. People don’t go

⏹️ ▶️ ^John through there. If you try to redirect them to it, just get right to the content, right? And we had sort of a middle period

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where things calmed down and now, like Marco said, people are able to incorporate

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all those instincts to show off their brand, to make things that are visually stimulating,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to highlight their technical chops, to make a sort of a movie, to turn an article into sort

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of more of a movie or a slideshow where there’s transitions between paragraphs and screens and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one picture fades into the next and the background is slightly animated showing a clip from the, you know, that’s relevant

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the thing that Tex is talking about next to it. It’s the resurgence of those

⏹️ ▶️ ^John landing pages or splash pages only integrated into the article. I’m going to go one further and say

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I have a theory about why this bothers me specifically and it’s not just the stuff that’s in the Verge.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Boy, we’re going way off on the watch thing but I want to talk about this

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} for a while so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John much for the tangent. I’m even annoyed by web pages where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when I scroll the web page, you know, basically position fixed and CSS for anything on the page doesn’t move.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You know, like, what’s the big deal about that? What about just like a top menu bar, like a top navigation bar that stays there when you scroll,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? Or a footer that stays there when it scrolls. I’m even annoyed by that because it breaks

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my, it breaks the mental model, my mental model of the scroll bar because the scroll bar is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the entire web page content region and yet some things within that region don’t scroll. The scroll bar is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John embedded and embedded scroll bars are an evil on their own It doesn’t really make it better if you put like an iframe in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John middle of the page where your article content isn’t a scroll bar there I conceptualize a web page and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This is you know an old-fashioned notion or whatever but especially when it’s a whole bunch of text as A scrollable region

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and when I move the scroll bar the entire region moves as a piece as if it was yes a printed page

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I was like, well, it’s not a print page. The web is not print. You shouldn’t expect to be like that I don’t expect it to be like print in all the ways that you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that you know people mean when they say that like I want to be able to change the font size I want to be able to make the window bigger and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have the text change size I want to have you know responsive design for the images and so on and so forth but when I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John reading a long-form article however the thing is rendered doesn’t have to be rendered exactly like it would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be on paper once I start scrolling it the scrolling model is I move scroll bar content moves

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} and anything that doesn’t move

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is a violation of that model and it’s not so bad when you got a header or a footer but these models are like all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the scroll bar does like Dragon’s Lair the scroll bar just triggers the next animation sequence right you move the scroll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bar a certain amount and nothing happens like driving You know an underpowered car you push the gas pedal and nothing happens right

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and then all of a sudden the giant image that was Entirely in the background that wasn’t moving slides up and a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John new one comes in and maybe the text moves But then the background doesn’t but then a certain point the background does move and then a new background

⏹️ ▶️ ^John comes in it’s like What again the text fades out and moves up? It’s like the model there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is Paw at the screen until you can see more text and a bunch of crap’s gonna get on behind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there the scenes that you have No idea has any relation to how you’re doing. It’s just like just make more now I mean Apple does it itself on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John their web pages where you try to scroll and like these Mac Pro animations are going you just Want to get down to the tech spec sections?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You’re not sure if you have to click the dots or scroll more Nothing’s happening. Oh wait now. It’s transitioning this this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John breaks my model of the way pages looks maybe I’m an old fogey But I feel like I’ve seen enough people interact

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with those pages They’re not sure what to do either and it’s like oh well I guess I did something in new taxes here. Maybe I can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John read it. It looks cool. It’s interesting Apple does it in a tasteful manner, but I just want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to scroll and I just want to see the page move

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You know what even Apple’s product pages though Like like what like when the Mac Pro came out that was like one of the first ones that really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco irritated me because it had like those sections you have to scroll between and then wait for the scroll to logically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco catch up from the JavaScript and Everything is that scroll jacked everything and then loaded it and it’s like makes it impossible to like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like if you like hit command F to find something in the page you were actually looking for, then everything would break and then it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would have to reload. And it was just, ugh. I wish people would just keep their brands to themselves. I mean, if these companies

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that do this, I mean, you know, it’s one thing for a product company like Apple, that’s, you know, they have different motivations, I guess. It’s still not good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But for a content company like The Verge or Bloomberg or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco any of these big magazines, if they spent half

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of the money and resources they spent on those over designs on actually paying writers and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hiring more writers I think they would see a bigger return and the content will be better. It just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco seems like a tremendous waste of money to do things that ultimately

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco annoy your readers and I like I guess you can look at it and say well that kind of looks cool

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah but if If you actually try to read the articles, it’s miserable.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s full of problems. And what we had before worked great. There was no

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco reason to change it. You know, yeah, update it with the times, change the font, maybe, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, tweet the layout a little bit. That’s fine, you can keep it fresh and interesting without making

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it unreadable.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know, I agree with everything you guys said, but I gotta tell you, I actually did kinda like the way the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} merch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John looked. That’s why they do it, because it does look cool and it is interesting. think you can incorporate, I can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John imagine, you know, without breaking the scrolling paradigm, I can imagine a pretty darn flashy thing where there’s video

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going in and when, you know, I’ll even allow you to start playing video when I scroll to the region to have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it do something interesting, right? Like, I’m not even opposed to that entirely if it makes for a cool layout because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people do find it interesting, like it keeps your attention like, you know, like jingling keys in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John front of a toddler, like, ooh, you know, or just like sitting a kid in front of a TV, like, oh, things are moving, things are colorful,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are flashy, right? Do those people actually read the articles? I mean, that’s why the top of the article they have the video review,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John which is like, you know, most people just watch that and feel like they’re done. But I feel like it does a disservice

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the paradigm of the web when you break scrolling in that way, not because scrolling is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sacred or anything, but just simply because it’s you’re inducing a custom

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one off mismatch between the user’s mental model of how a scroll bar works and how your thing works. And your thing is going to be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John different than Bloomberg’s thing is going to be different than everybody else’s thing and it’s just it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s that’s not good ui design aside from all the other stuff of being is a good branding is it good for traffic

⏹️ ▶️ ^John dude you know do we a b test these things and see that more people click when we have this crazy scrolling

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing like i believe it is possible to do something that’s still a noise marco but that is still good ui that’s all my argument

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s like i don’t you’ll never not you know do something flashy that annoys Marco but do it in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a way that doesn’t break people’s knowledge

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about how like a scrolling region works in a page in a web page or anything like

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} that. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like breaking the back button. You know it’s like it breaks the way people interact with the web.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Or it’s like if you tried to move a window you grab the title bar of a window and tried to move it. I know people don’t do this anymore because they don’t understand

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that windows move but if you did actually try to move a window and instead of the window moving like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it didn’t move but then all of a sudden it did move when you got halfway across the screen and like, you know, like it did that, you know, the,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the, those things for the Mac to do it well, but the windows eight thing where it snaps to fill half the screen or whatever, like if it just didn’t move,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’d be like, wait, I clicked and I started dragging and wait, no, now it’s moving. Wait, no, that’s what it’s like scrolling these

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things. You’re like, wait, I thought scrolling would make the content move, but now wait, no, it is moving. No, it’s not. It’s fading out. No, the background

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is changing. It’s terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Don’t do it. So let me ask you guys, let me start with Marco. When the, when the 5k iMac came

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey out, I remember vividly, and I was just just looking for it and I can’t find it anymore. They had a picture of like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a guy in like a nature scene and it was hyper zoomed in on the guy and as you scrolled

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it zoomed out to kind of indicate how big a 5k image is. Do you know what I’m talking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey about?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, it was in the keynote and then I did they put it on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey web as well? There was I’m almost positive it was on the web.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I think I recall it being on the web as

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey well. Okay, so did so let me start with Marco and then John I’d like to hear your two cents. Did you like that as well

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or do you also find that to be distasteful?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So a certain point you’re not Marco. You’re not showing text, it’s not an article.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John At a certain point what you’re doing is you have an interactive ad, like a little interactive movie, right? And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you get a lot of leeway if it’s like a marketing site and you’re trying to demonstrate a feature. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if I find myself trying to read many, many paragraphs of text that are just a linear

⏹️ ▶️ ^John series of paragraphs of text from top to bottom, especially something the length of like that Verge Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Watch review, this is not a marketing site with two tiny paragraphs of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John marketing text with a bunch of you know because that’s fine like infographics little animations the machine spinning and exploding

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like i give a lot of leeway leeway for that type of thing but for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John specifically long form text articles you have to you have to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John serve that need first and you have a lot less leeway i think to people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are less comfortable with the idea that this doesn’t work like a web page anymore now it’s kind of like an interactive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John advertisement widgety flash whatever thing, like a brochure, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So, real-time follow-up, a few people in the chat, I think starting with Moyes, have found

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the page that I was talking about, and it is like a hiker explorer guy with his arms

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in the air, and as you scroll down, the image zooms way out, and you see

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey just how big the 5K display is. And I completely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey agree with what you guys are saying. Like, I understand what you’re saying. I think you’re right. But there are times,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and this is an example, and I don’t know, I really thought the frame by frame video on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the Verge article, I just think they’re really well done and interesting, and I enjoy it. And I know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like conceptually in my head that I probably shouldn’t like these things, but I don’t know, I kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it. No, you should. That’s why they put them there, because they’re visually attractive. But like, I like the iMac site, because the whole point

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of that site is you’re going to look at like beauty shots of this thing, and they’re emphasizing one particular part of it,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the zoom is cool, and it does emphasize the retina part, because I mean, it’s a great example of like, how do you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how do you show people the retina screen when they’re probably viewing it on a screen that’s not written? It’s like trying to show them

⏹️ ▶️ ^John someone 3d television, but they’re watching it on a 2d TV, like, and this is a clever solution, we’re going to show it to you zoomed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at like one x pixels on your screen, but then show you how much more there actually is in a dramatic way. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this page is mostly pictures and sort of infographics, right? It’s not text,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think there’s a little bit of a hitch in the middle when you get down to the Yosemite section, because the image stops scrolling, but the text keeps scrolling,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but then the image catches up again, and that’s a little bit janky, but overall, there’s like less than

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a thousand words of text on this, like it’s probably less than 500 words of text on this page. Fine.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John For the Verge thing, that’s thousands upon thousands of words of text, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it impairs the readability of that text and the comfort of reading that text, and I get in the situation where I’m afraid, did I miss

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a paragraph? Did one of the animations scroll something away, and I missed an entire section because I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John realize it? Because I have no connection between my action with either the page up or page down key or the scroll bar

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or the scroll wheel or my finger swiping or whatever and what’s happening on the screen it’s very easy to actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John miss stuff if they start disconnecting those two things so time and a place for everything and you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are not wrong to enjoy the cool animated effects you’re not wrong to enjoy the video I thought the video was pretty well done as well

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it does not serve the needs of the text very well

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} yeah

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I agree with that and I should point out this fight the 5k iMac site that you’re saying is fine the first time

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I loaded it, it didn’t load properly. It mostly loaded and I started scrolling and then it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco popped in and broke. And then the thing in the middle where it catches and then scrolls again, that broke.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And it’s like… These are assuming… This is like the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Facebook designer problem where like all these new Facebook apps are so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco often designed to assume that all your friends are like beautiful models with great photography

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that are always on vacation in California. And with so many of these web designs, it’s assuming

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that it’s all going to load immediately and the person navigating it is going

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to navigate it exactly the way you expect them to and exactly the way you want them to, to stop and see every section.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And it’s just… Reality doesn’t work that way. And the web to date, the standard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco web, is very adaptable to the way reality works. When properly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco designed, it falls back so that if things haven’t loaded fully,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it still for the most part if you do your job right. If you want to jump around, you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do that. If something weirdly breaks or is transformed, or if you’re using some kind of assistive

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco technology to actually transform the content or read it in different ways, nothing breaks for the most part.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like if you do your job right, the web falls back

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gracefully. Yeah, graceful degradation does not work very well in these things. Exactly,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it doesn’t work at all usually. Usually it breaks horribly and you’re lucky if you can even see any of the content,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco especially anything that’s off the first

⏹️ ▶️ ^John page. And these are more like ads because like they’re, they’re optimized for the first time experience. But if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John want to go back to that page, like this was the Mac Pro pages that you talked about before as the greatest example. Like we all went to it and saw

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it as like, you know, whatever, who and all. But then the next time you go, you’re like, I want to get to the GPU section

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as fast as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} And you can’t just,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can’t just take the scroll through them and yank it down to 75% down the bottom of the page. Cause that’s, you remember

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like the GPU section was near the end. You can’t just do that. Nothing happens. You’re like, oh, do I have to wait through these animations?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Do I have to click through them? What do I have to do? Now you’re playing a game. It’s like a puzzle game on iOS, where you’re like you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John playing Myst, where you have to figure out, what do I poke, which pixel do I hit? What do I have to do? Do I just have to wait here?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You just wanna learn about the GPU. It is not, as soon as you start using it as an informational thing, there is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, it falls down.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Exactly. We are sponsored this week by Audible. They are the leading provider of downloadable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco audio books with over 150,000 titles and virtually every genre. they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco always adding new titles. So, if you want to listen to something, Audible has

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it. Now, audiobooks are great. You can listen to them anytime, anywhere. Audible is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco offering our listeners a free audiobook along with a 30-day trial. Go to audiblepodcast.com

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to get your free audiobook. Once again, audiblepodcast.com. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco there’s a book that we are supposed to have been reading, but we haven’t yet. What is that book,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} John? Speak for yourself, I’ve been reading it. Yeah, same

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco here. Well, I read the first, you know, few percentage points of it, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco had I been listening to it in Audible, I probably would have gotten further. What book is this, John?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s, oh my God, is the title Becoming Steve Jobs? I don’t even know what the title is. That’s right. Yep.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It is the latest Steve Jobs biography that has been getting a lot of press. This

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is the biography that has gotten fairly unprecedented access

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to Apple executives and people who knew Steve. Obviously it doesn’t have access to Steve himself anymore, but it is written

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by someone who has had a many years relationship with Steve as a journalist.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And the Apple executives who did talk to this author, it’s a two author book actually, I forget who the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John other one is, who did talk to him have said, have been saying in the press that they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like this biography and that they don’t like the Walter Ison biography. Anyone who has listened to Hypercritical

⏹️ ▶️ ^John knows that I also don’t like the Walter Ison biography, but I’m also slightly uncomfortable with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John idea of Apple executives endorsing a biography as being better

⏹️ ▶️ ^John than some other one. I mean, I guess it makes perfect sense. Like if you knew Steve Jobs, like if you actually knew him

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and you know he’s being not well represented by another book and a new book comes out that does represent him well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s natural for you to say this is the better one because this is more like the Steve that I knew. But it’s very it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know the appearance of impropriety like it’s it’s a little bit weird to be endorsing a biography

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because then people might think uh this is just a rah rah apple is great kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of book. I’m only about 10% into this book. I talked about it on the episode of upgrade I was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John recently on with Jason Snell. I talked about the first 10% of the book he has read that Jason had read the whole book so he talked about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the entire thing and we went back and forth a bit. But I am reading it and regardless of whether

⏹️ ▶️ ^John these two guys read it, I’m going to talk about the book when I’m done reading it and I’m going to talk about it on ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So the reason you should get this book on Audible is so that you, unlike those other two guys…

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I am like 110 pages in, thank you very

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} much. All right, well…

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Because I actually bought it on Dead Trees.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, well, that was a mistake probably. But, uh… Look at all these iOS devices, all these different

⏹️ ▶️ ^John screen sizes to choose. Anyway, whatever it takes for you to get it. If you buy an audiobook, you can listen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to it while you walk the dog or jog or whatever, so that you, the listener, will have done

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your homework. And when the time comes, and I’m by the way a very slow reader, so you have plenty of time to do this, just go to Audible, get the free book.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John When we talk about it, you’ll be prepared.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Perfect. Go to audiblepodcast.com slash ATP to start this book

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or any other one. Thanks a lot to Audible for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, I really am like a hundred pages into that book So

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} don’t don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey don’t lump me in with that Marco character who refuses to do any homework

⏹️ ▶️ ^John He should get the audio book, you know, you never read books. Do you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know I read it on my giant iPhone on the plane on the way to Ireland

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And then promptly forgot to keep reading it at once I got there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think it gets better towards the end Jason was saying that the beginning part like the authors don’t have much first-hand experience They just rehash

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a lot of stuff but towards the end they get all the good interviews and new stuff comes out So you should read it or listen to it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I’ll get there

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I have to agree with you Marco that the beginning Up through around abouts

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the time when when Steve got fired. I Didn’t really care for it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But now I feel like it’s getting a little more opinionated which I like and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey It’s getting a little more interesting, but it was it was hard to get going for me So I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey blame you for kind of forgetting to pick it back up Okay, so now that we started to and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey aborted talking about the watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} We

⏹️ ▶️ ^John tried. It almost happened. We’re gonna do it again. It almost

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco worked. All right, well that’s the end of the show. We’ll see you guys next week. Darn it, Marco!

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I was just about to make that joke.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Oh, goodness. All right,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey so we should probably talk about the, talk about the, the lifted embargo in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey reviews we’ve read. So I think we’ve all read a smattering of them. I’ve read some of the ones that Marco has read. I’ve read,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’ve not read some of the ones that Marco has read. John, I assume you’ve read all the things because you do homework even when we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey want you to. So The interesting thing to me about this, and we were talking privately

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey about it, the three of us with a few other people, and Stephen Hackett said

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to us, it seems like a lot of the reviews are kind of disappointed a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey bit, especially about performance. And he had said, and I agree,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey we should have seen that coming, but it still feels a little bit surprising.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That’s to me the most worrisome but also unsurprising part because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m all excited as everyone else is, oh which one do I get? I guess we’ll talk about that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco But I want to get something that’s going to be really awesome. And if I’m going to get a nice steel one,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m not getting the edition, but if I’m going to get a nice steel one, maybe the Link Bracelet one, go nice

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and high end on that, I would really want it to be an amazing thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it sounds like from all the reviews, it’s a first generation device. And yeah, you’re right. We shouldn’t be surprised

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco by that, but it’s a first generation device. And especially, the things that caught out to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco me, or that I really noticed, not only does everybody say it’s a little bit slow sometimes, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is certainly disappointing, but you can see it in some of the videos. And one of the reviews,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I forget which one, it might have been Nilay, or maybe it was Tepulsky, one of the reviews said that you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can see the air gap between the screen and the cover glass, or the cover

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sapphire. And I saw it in one of the videos too, and it’s very clear, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you can see the rectangle outline of the actual screen inside that nice big flat

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco black top. And it does kind of ruin the illusion of this being one seamless thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so I look at things like that, like the screen air gap being visible and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the slowness people are talking about. And I know also for the slowness thing, you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, WatchKit apps, you know, you can see even in the simulator on WatchKit

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco apps, you can see that there’s like some inherent lag in this process of like kind of throwing the interface

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from the phone to the watch over Bluetooth, which is how WatchKit apps actually work. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco probably going to be sluggish too. And so it seems like there’s this kind of theme of,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this is a really cool device with some really cool features. However, it’s a little bit slow sometimes, watch apps are a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bit slow, and there’s a couple of like, you know, little niggling points like, you know, like that, like the visible

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco air gap on the display. So I see all these things and I think, obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, speed and display elimination, these are the kinds of things that Apple always improves

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over time. And so I know that version two is gonna come out and be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco significantly better in some of these areas, because that’s what always happens. Probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco only a year from now, like it’s probably not even gonna be that far from now. And I think too, like the hard way, so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we’ve all heard the same rumors, I think. The rumors that said that this was supposed to come out last fall.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So we’re kinda, we’re like six months later than, you know, if that’s accurate, we’re like six months late

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on original release. When it was shown to the public last fall, it sure looked like the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco was pretty much done. It seemed like the software was probably what was holding

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it up all this time. And that’s, as we know from engineering, that’s way more likely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to be the case than the other way around. It seems like this was definitely like, the hardware was fine, the software needed more time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Not a big surprise. So I kind of think that we might be seeing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like half generation old hardware. If they were gonna ship this hardware last fall,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco originally, then what’s the hardware going to be like next spring,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco presumably, when there’s Apple Watch 2 or whatever? I feel like we’re going to jump ahead even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco further than we usually do in the first to second generation migration

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because we’ve had that extra six months. So rather than jumping ahead a year, we might jump ahead 18 months.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Does that make sense?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, it does. And you very well could be right. And I’m going to give John a chance to talk

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey here in a second, but one of the things that I was really looking forward to once I realized today was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey embargo day was hoping that I could really solidify my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey plans for what to do because I’ve talked on this show and on and on analog about,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey well, maybe I’ll get one, but maybe I won’t, which, which typically in my history means

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m absolutely getting one, but I just haven’t convinced myself yet. And I gotta tell you,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey after reading these, I had been hemming and hawing between, you know, maybe I will get a spendy

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey one because, God, that $1,100 one looks so good. The black one? Yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey at least it does on screen. Who knows what it looks like in real life? But on screen it looks so good. And so I’d been

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey flip-flopping back and forth and back and forth. And the one thing that I think I’ve concluded based on all these reviews

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is, if I’m going to do it at all, which knowing me, I probably will, I should definitely get a sport

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey because it sounds like I’m going to want to replace this in a year, just like you were saying, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey John?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I think for both of you who are planning on buying one, I imagine a lot of these early reviews are pushing it, pushing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them to the sport of saying, I had all sorts of plans about which one I was going to get. I was picking and choosing,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I was matching things. But now I read these reviews, you know, for tech people who read five reviews about the watch, all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of them are thinking, yeah, maybe I’ll just go with sport. And, you know, hedge your bets, because you still want one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because it seems like it’s cool but it’s so clear that you’re only gonna want it for a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John while. A couple things on the watch reviews. First is that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John due to knowing a lot of people who have had interactions with the watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it was nice to see that there’s nothing nothing surprising in their reviews. If you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know people who have gone to the press events who have touched the watches who are, you know, have experience with them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Everything that was in the reviews, everything like sort of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John objective, not like how does this fit into my life, but like how does the device perform and what features does it have?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like we knew it all already. And I think part of that has to do with Apple’s big press push and this sort of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John long slow motion rollout where they just release information and you could go into the stores

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and mess with them and you can do all like it was different than boy, no one has ever touched one of these things before

⏹️ ▶️ ^John now I’m gonna read about it and learn about it all these stories were all kind of on the same page and are all things that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we kind of knew already so that’s good to see the one aspect that maybe people who are

⏹️ ▶️ ^John aren’t in as close touch with people who play with the watches might have been surprised about it was a marker just mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that they’re a little bit slower than people expected and you didn’t even see a lot of that even the press hands-on because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it wasn’t quite as hand-on as you would expect but the fact that it feels sluggish I think is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John catching people a little bit by surprise for a couple of reasons. First, that the first iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John despite, like if you go back and look at it now, actually being more sluggish than say an iPhone 6, it didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John feel sluggish because they had removed everything from the original iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John except for like the bare minimum, like the entire phone was concentrating as hard as it could on doing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whatever it is that you just tap with your finger, like hardcore. It was, you know, it was like the old Mac menu where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you hold down the button to pull down a menu from the menu bar, the entire machine stood still.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But you had really responsive animation when you were scrubbing through that menu and that was necessary on 128K Mac. It just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John carried over for way too long because Apple couldn’t get a software act together. But that whole idea of like version

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one of this product, interactivity above all, stop everything else that’s going on the machine and just do this one thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then with the watch, because the screen is so small and because it’s a version one, like there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John was an expectation, I think they would do the same thing. That because it’s pushing so few pixels and because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the watch does so little, Surely there won’t be anything that can happen on the watch that would be sluggish. I mean, why would it?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Uh, but kind of like the, you know, the iPhone sort of,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uh, pushed back the level of abstraction by having incredibly weak hardware, the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in the watch is pretty darn weak. I mean, people talk about what the S1 might be based on, which A series chip it might be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John based on, regardless of which one it’s based on. It’s surely underclocked, right? Compared to what it was in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whatever the top end iPad or phone that had the same CPU architecture did. It is a relatively weak

⏹️ ▶️ ^John CPU and GPU in there and Unlike the original iPhone the watch has to do all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sorts of stuff and that brings me to the second sort of realization after reading all these reviews

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is that I Don’t think things are gonna get all that much better for the worst

⏹️ ▶️ ^John case scenarios of performance when people talked about I launched a Watch kid app and I just saw a spinner

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for a long period of time or lots of waiting screens and a lot of the Video reviews you get to see the various waiting screens

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the various apps one shows an animation of different modes of transportation, one shows a little dot spinner, one shows

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just a black screen, sometimes the thing doesn’t launch at all. That’s an architectural thing where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John WatchKit apps are really iPhone apps that are sort of projecting their interface onto the phone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or interacting back and forth across a wireless connection. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John nothing you can really do with either the phone hardware or the watch hardware. Make them both infinitely

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fast, make them both have huge amounts of RAM, make them have incredibly powerful CPUs and GPUs.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you’re trying to do sort of this remote control interface, you know, you’re going to be constrained

⏹️ ▶️ ^John by opening and closing a connection communicating over Bluetooth, having interference problems because your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phone is in your pocket and your your pockets are lined with tinfoil, like whatever it is, you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that that’s like an architectural thing that version two of the phone is not going to fix that what’s going to fix that as native

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phone apps and what’s going to make native phone apps more feasible is going to be faster hardware, more RAM, so on and so forth. So the problem

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will fix itself. But this particular model of doing third-party applications

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but having them projected from the phone onto the watch not literally as in display postscript or anything but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like that whole model of two devices cooperating to to work on the UI together

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that puts kind of a ceiling on how nicely interactive this is and then that insult to injury even on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John native apps it seems like in the video sometimes it’s like a little stutter with an animation or with a swipe or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I don’t that could be solved by hardware and software that could help I could be resolved by a revision

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to iOS to make things smoother in the same way that they really hammered on smoothly scrolling

⏹️ ▶️ ^John table views on the original versions of what was then called iPhone OS for the iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So I think not only is the version one product definitely kind of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not not compromised, but like, well, yeah, I guess I would say compromise in more

⏹️ ▶️ ^John way in different ways than the iPhone was because the iPhone original iPhone was compromised by having no third party apps,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no multitasking, no nothing, right. And so that was their compromise. We’re going to make the things that we have really responsive and the compromise

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is you lose all this functionality, the compromise for the watch, necessarily because of the way it’s done. And because of the way it interacts

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with the iPhone is we can’t sacrifice features and interactivity. We have to have apps because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s just like we created the app store age and now we’re living in it and we’ve launched things without apps, it would be a big problem.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So you’ve got to have apps, we got to have them in some way. If we can’t do native apps right away do this weird watch get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John app type thing. We’ve got to have wireless communication and things going on in the background because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how do you know, you tap a thing on the watch and we have to tell a thing on the phone to launch maybe that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even launched in the app, we have to launch the thing and load that code have that code projectors display back here and while that’s going like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s the that is their baseline functionality and it involves a lot more things going on at the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John time than the original iPhone did. So it’s a different set of compromises. And I don’t think that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sluggishness is going to get better until they change and until native watch kid

⏹️ ▶️ ^John apps. And what are they going to call them? I’m not going to call native watch get apps that go native watch apps get here until those

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get here. And those aren’t going to really be great until the hardware and software is revised.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So I would say wait two or three versions, I expect the next version to be the same physical form factor,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just maybe with a better CPU and a couple other tweaks and some software tweaks. And then the third one,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s where you get into something that works like they thought the first one was going to

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} do. But that’s true all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John People say, we’re not slamming it. That’s the true of all of these products. I don’t think anyone is shocked by this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John When you say that, people think you’re telling them not to buy an Apple Watch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That was true of the first MacBook Air and or the first written MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Pro, first written iMac. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how things work in the tech world.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as a first-gen product, the things people are citing as issues or shortcomings

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco are not significantly worse than other first-gen shortcomings from other product lines. It doesn’t seem like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco there’s one fatal flaw here, or one really big problem. It just seems

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like, yeah, it’s kind of slow sometimes, certain things aren’t that smooth yet. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco some of it will be fixed in software as the software matures. Some of it will just be hardware limitations that you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have to buy a new watch for. And yeah, I guess we’ll see. And I agree that the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whole design of WatchKit being this Bluetooth projection with running on the phone back and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco forth, like, that is so fragile and complicated and there’s so much inherent

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco latency and weirdness there that we really do have to wait for native watch apps.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s worth asking, like, let’s suppose WatchKit apps really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco don’t work very well in reality because it seems from the reviews that that might be the case.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco That they might just, one of them, I think it was Neely, was really just saying just how slow,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like he’s saying you could take your phone out of your pocket and do it on there faster than you could do it on the watch. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco let’s assume the WatchKit apps in reality are a little bit iffy, or at least not quite worthwhile.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Do you think, people are gonna judge the Apple Watch based on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco WatchKit, and if any flaw or shortcoming that WatchKit apps have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco will reflect badly on the watch and on people’s perceptions of the watch as a whole.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Do you think releasing WatchKit the way they did now is better overall

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco than if they hadn’t released it at all and just said no third-party apps yet except notifications?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think it’s probably better to do what they did because I think there is a chance

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that people will get the watch, fiddle with the third party

⏹️ ▶️ ^John apps enough to let them know that they’re not as useful as they thought they were going to be,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but they may still end up with a product whose functionality

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re happy with. Like, I’m not entirely sure that the watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John loses any value by not being able to have a giant world of applications.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like, I think the core functionality of telling time doing the fitness tracking,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John providing a small window into notifications, tapping you, you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that core set of functionality may be enough to,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to make this product worth its value because it is, it’s a novelty. So there’ll be something into that and to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John let people know, do I want to wear a smartwatch? Is there a place for a smart smartwatch in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my life? I don’t think the answer to that question hinges on the performance

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of or even the existence of third party apps.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It will be nice if they worked and maybe there’ll be one or two third party apps that work. And I think it’s important for them to do it. Because for the one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or two things where like, I mostly don’t use third party apps, but I do use you know, overcast

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when I go running and I do this, you know, like one or two that work well enough that they’re willing to deal with the compromises.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Having them there adds value. The fact that a bunch of other apps are flaky, or it would be faster to do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on your phone, people will just be like, Oh, I’ll just do it on my phone. Right, and they’ll just move on. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think this product lives or dies by the functionality that Apple is providing in terms

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of is it a thing that people are going to want to do and it will be a pleasant surprise and it will open up new worlds

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of functionality and the watch when three years from now, third party apps are really a thing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and do interesting stuff and have access to like, you know, the speaker and the camera

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s on the third model and the third generation model and all this other stuff like this world will blossom but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right now out of the gate I think just the core functionality is enough to to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John set this watch on its way.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah I mean I think the the built-in functionality from day one and and this world of ass might even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco be like too much stuff it does seem and a number of the reviews mentioned this including

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Eli I keep talking about his review it does seem like there’s almost a lack of focus

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and maybe that’s a good thing you know maybe because it this is very much going to have the 80%

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco problem of 80% of the users are going to use 20% of the features, but it’s going to be a different 20% of the features for each user.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So I see why they gave us so many options of what this thing could do for us.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And that also does support the idea of it should support third party apps. Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what I’m going to do with it is probably going to use four of the built in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco functions plus one or two third party apps. It’s not going to be a very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco large number of things I’m doing with it, but it’s going to include at least one third party

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco app, at least my own. I’m going to use Overcast’s app. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe Clear when I’m shopping for groceries, if they have an app. I hope they do. But I suspect

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the number of apps on the average person’s watch is going to be pretty small. The number of apps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they actually use is going to be probably, certainly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco under 10 that they actually use on a regular basis. I would say it might even be under 5.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think it’s going to be a small number. To me, if you look at the watch,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the hierarchy, the navigational hierarchy, you go through, you can see a lot of these in their videos now,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and you can see if you play with WatchKit, you can see some of the glance stuff. You can see the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hierarchy here so that when you first unlock it you see the the watch face so that’s like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco environment one is the watch face and you can get notifications from there and then you can go to glances

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from there and the glances are just in this page interface you swipe through and you see your glance

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and then you can tap on it to open the app or whatever that’s all right there and then you hit the crown and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco then you go into the home screen then that whole environment zooms out and you get then you get the home screen the old,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, the home honeycomb thing. And then you can long caption there. What if the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco watch didn’t have the home screen part of it? What if it was only the watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco face with the notifications on top and the glances on the bottom, the way it is now, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whole interface the way it is now, but without a home screen? So that the glances were your launchers.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think that not only would that be an easier product to navigate, but I think that might even focus it a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bit help people prune the list of what they want to do to make it easier

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and lighter weight and take up less space, have fewer things that need to be updated and need to be running

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and everything. I think that might be a better product, but I don’t know. Time will tell once we actually have these things.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think the other aspect to reading, looking at all these reviews lined up here that we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have to keep in mind is when people are reviewing a technology product, it’s part of their job to take

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it through its paces. They’re going to dig into all the menus. They’re going to try all the advertised features

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re going to evaluate you know here’s the the umpteen things apple says this can do it’s good this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one it’s not so good that one it’s going to go through every single one that’s not how regular people use products as a product review is use products

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think people are going to buy this thing and you know maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fiddle around with it a little bit but mostly it’ll sort of be like ambient feature discovery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when a notification they’ll pair it with their phone like when a notification appears they they will discover the sort of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John contact sensitive replying things and how the wheel scrolls through things.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’ll when they hit that button on the side, it will bring up the little you know, contact thing and let’s say oh, I can I can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John text my contacts so I can call them from the watch to like, they will discover things as they do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them, but they’re not going to go into every single menu and find every single feature and try them all out extensively. Like people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who don’t have any interest in fitness tracking may not even know that it’s counting their steps because they don’t even care like it will be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, again, people smartwatch is not a thing that most people have any familiarity with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at all. They just regular watches just look at them for the time. This is like, all right, well, we’re starting from there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Regular watch, I look at it from the time and Gruber’s review had a lot of good content concentrating on how well does it fulfill

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that job? The answer is not really that well, because the screen can’t be on all the time, but I’m sure that will get better as time goes on anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But that’s where they’re starting from like, well, I can tell time on this watch too. And it looks kind of nice.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apparently, you know, the one I bought, I bought the one I thought it look nice. And also I can get notifications. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John apparently I can text people look I can scribble things to like, everything is a bonus above

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I can tell time on it right? I don’t think people are going to buy me but like, well, it wasn’t worth $350 because every single one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the apps that I tried, it didn’t work to didn’t meet my expectations. Like, they’re just gonna,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re going to use a small corner of the functionality slowly revealing itself over time. By the time people even make

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it at that home screen and get obsessed with like maybe they’ll try a few of the apps like oh, I didn’t work here. Let me just go back doing these things.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Whether they’ll regret purchasing it because they think there’s not enough functionality, I don’t know, but I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just I feel like people are not going to… they’re not gonna use it like a tech reviewer. They’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ ^John use it like a regular person. And if you see regular people use their phones even, if you give a person

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an iPhone and you don’t like say, oh you gotta have this Apple, you gotta have that Apple, yeah you don’t if you don’t have like a tech nerd setting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it up for them, you just give them an empty phone and let them use it, it may be a long time before they even tap one of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the icons that comes on the It could be months before that happens, right? That’s how regular people use products. And all that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is, you know, is in Apple’s favor here, because the longer people take to sort of take

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the watch through its paces, the more equipped Apple hopefully will be with its hardware and software stack and potentially

⏹️ ▶️ ^John its next model of watch to say, Oh, that’s actually much better now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I don’t know. I, I’m really curious what to make of all of this, because Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like I was saying earlier, I feel like my anticipation, which was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey tempered but enthusiastic nonetheless, I feel like there’s been some water

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey poured on that fire. And now I’m a lot less sure what I want to do. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey pretty darn sure, unless I have some sort of epiphany tomorrow, that come

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Friday morning, whenever it is I wake up, I’m not going to be waking up in the middle of the night. to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey schedule a try on and then see where to go from there because my livelihood doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey depend on it. Like Marcos sort of does. And I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey if this is, if it’s really worth jumping in on the first generation. And you could

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey consider all of that claim chatter to use against me in like three weeks, but for now,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m really not sure what to make of it. And one of the things I wanted to discuss was a few of the more interesting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey things I’ve noted, or that all of us have noted in these reviews. And one of the common themes I heard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was, well, you know, it’s being sold as a way to get back to real life. Oh, you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey just quickly glance at whatever it is that’s just come in. And then you can go back to the things

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that actually matter. And I was really looking forward to that because I don’t have a lot of self control

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey when it comes to looking at my phone and I thought, oh, well, maybe I’d be able to glance down at my watch and move on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and a lot of these reviews are saying, well, maybe not. In fact, to quote Neely,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey so far, I’ve mostly used the watch either alone or in an office environment, but it’s really different to have a smart watch in a bar.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Here, even small distractions make you seem like a jerk. Sony’s trying to describe the project

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to me and find ways to work together, but I keep glancing at my wrist to see extremely unimportant emails fly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey by. It turns out that checking your watch over and over again is a gesture that carries a lot of cultural weight.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Eventually, Sony asked me if I need to be somewhere else. We’re both embarrassed, And I’ve mostly just ignored everyone.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey This is a little too much future all at once. Now in a lot, in a large way, I think that’s kind of a self-created problem

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey because if you allow all the notifications to come through, then that’s, what’s going to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I think we’re going to have to be pretty good janitors and stewards of what, what notifications

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey come in. But it was kind of disappointing to me that, that it seems

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like the black hole that I’m so tempted to allow myself to get sucked into, it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey moved from my pocket to my wrist.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, you should never look for a product to to change your habits in that way. You know what I mean? Because like that,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like there there is a there is a kernel of truth. That aspect of it is the kernel of truth is what we talked about when we were first entertaining

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the idea of an Apple Watch. Like what what use could this thing possibly have? And the core

⏹️ ▶️ ^John kernel is that it really is much easier, better, lower friction, more convenience

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to just pick your wrist up to your face and look at something and deal with there than it is to fish your phone out of your pocket. But by now we are all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John experts at extracting our phone with whatever hand we prefer from whatever pocket we always put it in,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whether that’s our pants pocket or jacket pocket, depending on the weather, whatever. We’re all experts at doing that, right? But it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a pain, right? And there’s a potential that you could drop the thing when you’re trying to pull it out quickly that having a thing on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your wrist. This is this is the big key killer feature of the like it is more accessible. It is smaller,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s lighter weight, it’s there, you don’t have to do anything. It’s attached to you already. You’re not going to drop it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s the core. else is people projecting like now I’m going to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be better about you know not having notifications and paying more attention to people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I’m going to pay attention to my family because I have a phone like if if your idea is that you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will be able to surreptitiously steal glances at notifications in a way that doesn’t annoy people whereas previously

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you had to more obviously fish out your phone or do that thing where you put your phone in your thigh and you glance down on it through the edge of the like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s you doing that and you’re gonna do the same exact things with this thing and it’s just like wherever you go there you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are that is this this device is not going to help you change your life in that way but that all that story

⏹️ ▶️ ^John spins out from the kernel of truth about yes it really is way more convenient the same way that like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John small changes in screen size can be revelatory with the whole you know small iPhone to the big iPhone 6

⏹️ ▶️ ^John plus and all that like small changes in form factor and I would say or watch is a pretty darn big change in form

⏹️ ▶️ ^John factor in a very fundamental ways from a little rectangle glass thing you hold can make big differences

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but you You have a separate problem with how you balance people who are not there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and their electronic communication with you and people who are there. Like that is a separate issue.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No product is probably ever going to change that for you and you can solve that problem or not with any set of products. Whether

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you have a flip phone that you’re texting people on or a pager that you’re looking at or if you’re just daydreaming and you can’t pay attention

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to people because you’re thinking about a programming problem in your head while they’re trying to ask you what you want for dinner. Like these are all problems

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that are that happen to lunch. This is totally all hypothetical scenarios.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, you know, no resemblance to real person or events, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John those problems are going to be there no matter what. So you shouldn’t feel disappointed that this doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John solve that problem for you. And even I would even say the fitness tracking thing as well, like the Fitbit or whatever. Like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if I get if I get a fitness tracker, it’s going to help me exercise. They do like it can motivate you. It can gamify

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things, right. But if your problem is that I had a Fitbit, and I use it for a while, but then I got bored

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I stopped exercising. When I got the Apple Watch, then I’m really going to do fitness stuff because I’ll be so excited

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about it. It’s like, if you already traveled that route, like the problem is not the fitness tracker. The problem is you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, exactly. And I mean, we’re going to see this story unfolding over and over

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco again over the next year of somebody getting an Apple Watch, thinking it will solve their overly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco distracted by notifications problem. And it just makes it worse, or it doesn’t have any

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco meaningful improvement because this requires a level of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco presence and self-discipline that if you don’t already

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have it, this is not going to give it to you. Like if your phone… First

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of all, if you’re getting notifications constantly, notification should be meaningful. It should

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco be actions or events that you need to or really want

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to be notified of immediately. something you can check when you when you have a chance

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco something you actually need to be notified so like for example almost nobody needs to be notified about a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco twitter at reply because that’s something you can just check later when you have a chance

⏹️ ▶️ ^John i think framing it the way is like need to or want to like that that’s going to be so different for people that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John probably not a useful definition what it really comes down to is are you serving

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the device or is the device serving you because framing it that way lets people decide for themselves

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no the device is serving me because I really need to know every single out reply or whatever, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You have to be honest with yourself about that. You have to say, well, like, I guess what it comes down to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is if something happens on your electronic devices and you find yourself compelled to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John address that on those devices, no matter what that thing is, and you find yourself

⏹️ ▶️ ^John regretting while you’re doing it, like that you that you feel compelled that like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you are being torn away from from something else that you say in yourself, I would rather not be torn away

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right now, but I have to because of whatever. Now, sometimes it’s a real have to, like you have one of those jobs where your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John boss can call you at all hours, in which case you should get a different job. But for the Twitter at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John replies, people like turn that on because they rarely get at replies. But if an at reply comes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and they’re in the middle of like a meaningful conversation with their spouse and they feel like they have to go get that thing and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^John their spouse gets angry, you will regret having gone to look at that notification.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even though you set that up yourself. So at a certain point, you are serving the device. Like the device has

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a mastery over your life. You have given it more power than you really, really want to. And then you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to start to question like, when whatever that thing was happened, and I did it like sort of compulsively

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and instinctively and went to look at it, was I being thoughtful about that? Did I think about the fact

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that, did I weigh the potential importance of that Twitter at reply against what I was doing at this moment?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Because just having notifications, Twitter at replies, Yeah, we it’s not for most people, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but just having it in and of itself is a reasonable thing to do, especially if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t get a lot of them. But feeling compelled to look at it in a context where if removed from the situation,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you would say that was a bad call. Now is not a time to look at Twitter at mentions, but you just do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it compulsively. That’s when you know you have a problem. And the way to address that problem is probably to turn off that notification.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I think every individual person has decided for themselves at what point they feel like the device is now in control of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them rather as opposed to them being in control of the device.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, that’s a really good way of looking at it. And now I’m feeling terribly, terribly guilty. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey thanks for the shaming because hopefully this will cause me to reform my ways.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, it’s but I mean, like, that’s why I want everyone to, you know, judge for themselves. Like, do you feel that don’t let

⏹️ ▶️ ^John other people tell you like, you know, you know, he said, don’t let people tell you that you’re looking at your phone too much, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if someone tells you you’re looking at your phone too much, and you feel bad about that means you agree with them, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Because then, you know, even if it’s just like, is your phone making

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your life worse or better? And only you can decide that. But if enough people are annoyed at you,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them being annoyed at you is making your life worse. So it’s an indirect thing, you know what I mean? Like that’s how you have to balance this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I wanna get back to the kernel of truth about the phone, about the watch being, you know, having it closer to you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If you have a problem with notifications and sort of like electronic balance, balancing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with like life that’s happening in front of your eyes, the phone is probably the watch probably gonna make that worse

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because it gives you more vectors for the hardware to control you. If you don’t have a problem with that,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the watch is the potential to make it much, much better because you’re going to be doing the same things. You know, you’re managing your notifications.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You’re not dealing with electronic devices when you don’t want to. They’re not controlling you. You’re controlling them. It’s just that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one aspect of it now becomes more efficient. Now you don’t have to fish your phone out of the pockets. Like say you have 10 notifications

⏹️ ▶️ ^John during the day. If six of them, you don’t have to fish your phone out of the pocket that’s a big win and you think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well who cares is a big win it’s like who cares the phone screen on my phone is like a couple millimeters bigger is that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John really make a big deal small changes like that can make a big difference and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s the big win of the watch that like you know I think a panzerino had the article about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John giving you time back it will because it will if you take the same interactions you were going to have and make a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whole bunch of them way more efficient and faster and like less less unlocking your phone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and doing touch ID and or entering your code if you don’t have touch ID and then swiping the notification

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and blah blah if you just turn your wrist up that is a huge win. But if your problem is that your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hardware is controlling you now you just took another piece of hard you just didn’t do another eel and slapped it onto your wrist and run

⏹️ ▶️ ^John around the line parlance and that’s just gonna make your life worse not better. You

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. Any other interesting bits that came from

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the review? The only other one that I saw was on Gruber’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey review. He was extremely effusive about the sport band, and I’ll read a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey small segment here. “‘The sport band is a downright revelation. I’d go so far as to call it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the most comfortable watch band I’ve ever worn. I’ve rolled my eyes at Apple’s use of fluorelastomer in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey lieu of rubber to describe the material of these bands, but it truly does have a premium-rich supple feel to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it. The way the end of the band tucks under the other side of the strap — a design Mark Newsom first

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey used at Eichpod — is brilliant. Up until now, it struck me as odd that the $10,000 edition

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey models came with the same bands as the entry model 349-399 sport watches.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Having worn it, it now strikes me the other way around, that the 349-399 sport watches are equipped with straps that can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey genuinely be described as luxurious fluoroelastomer or not. That was pretty

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey surprising because I have tried to dig and figure out

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey from people who may have had one of these on at one point or another whether or not the sport band was any good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And that seems to be, nobody has said, oh my God, it’s the best. A lot

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of people have said no, and a lot of people have said, yeah, it’s pretty good. But this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was like really exciting. John was really excited about it. And that surprised me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t know if you guys had any interesting thoughts to add on that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, I’ve heard, I’ve also been poking around with anybody who I can find, and I’ve heard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all over the map responses. It really does seem very polarizing. Some people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just hate it, some people love it, some people think it feels good but looks bad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’ve heard the entire range. It just seems very polarizing. I think this is going to be the case with a lot of the bands,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and part of the reason why I’ve had such anxiety trying to figure out what the heck to pre-order at 3am if I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do that. Because you’ve got to basically pre-order something and then, before you can even try it, then go try it and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe cancel or modify your order if you change your mind. And then who knows

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if there’s going to be a 4-6 week delay on shipping, as some rumors say. I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to be without a watch for a while as people are getting my app and telling me all the ways it’s breaking.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So it is tempting to pre-order something at 3am and I don’t really know which one yet

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because again, the bands are going to be just all over the map with personal preference. Some

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people are going to think certain ones are ugly that other people think are beautiful. Some people are going

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to, you’re going to think something will be good until you actually try it and realize, oh, this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco either doesn’t look good on me or I don’t like the way it feels or I don’t like the way it works

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or whatever. And it’s going to be all over the map. I think we’re not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco going to get a major consensus on banned opinions because it is really so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco up to personal preference.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I tend to think you’re right. John, anything to add?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, just that people, you would think that wrists are generally the same shape,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? You would think, oh, well, all that matters is maybe amount of arm hair or something like that. someone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with very strangely shaped wrists variations just just variations in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like bone structure of the wrist can make one type of band so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John uncomfortable that it is not feasible or can make one type of band feel really good and so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think Parker’s right that like any watch the fact they have a million

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bands is good because some bands are going to look really good

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but be uncomfortable or the opposite and that’s why I think for people who are thinking of buying one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you should probably try them on just to make sure because not only are these bands

⏹️ ▶️ ^John differently designed than a lot of watch bands that I’ve seen but also especially for women

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who are used to wearing a woman’s watch which are very with a very thin band all these bands are pretty wide and the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John same type of strap that you liked on a when you had a very thin band

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you might not like that same material when it’s thicker it might sit differently on your wrist and of course The watch itself is much

⏹️ ▶️ ^John larger than some ladies watches are like that even the small one It’s a big rectangle of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John metal So by all means everybody please go to the store and try these on and spend some time with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them the best of course is to find a friend who’s an early adopter who bought their sight unseen and Try theirs on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because then maybe you can use it for like a day or a couple hours instead of just trying it on For a few minutes in a store

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah Any other thoughts on the watch reviews?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if I was gonna write a review of this the angle that I would take is relevant to this whole the idea of a Like a launch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and launch excitement. So the way Apple framed this and the group mentioned this as well as like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That slide they had about like well big revolutions in products we have like the original Mac

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the iPod and the iPhone and the iPad and the watch is the next one and you see that grouping

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and it seems like a reasonable grouping of things and they were talking specifically with the input methods

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of like the mouse and and the click wheel and the iPod and The touchscreen and now the digital crown or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Um, but I think the watch is more derivative than any

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of those. The reason the phone was so technology and input wise,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the reason the phone was so exciting was because it was the, you know, it was a confluence

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of several events that changed the form factor, made the phone all screen. What it put on that screen was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a touchscreen that wasn’t actually annoying to use, like it was, it was a, you know, a genre defining

⏹️ ▶️ ^John interface. And so people were just excited about it because it was like the future. It’s like, what is this crazy

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing? I’ve never seen anything like this. You know, the famous story about the other phone makers thinking all the demos

⏹️ ▶️ ^John were faked because there’s no way they can make a real thing like this. Like it was amazing. All right. And that’s why the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iPhone launch was big because people were just blown away by the tech and it was just something they had never seen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John before. Incredibly radical and new and even even, you know, it was ridiculously priced. It was singular

⏹️ ▶️ ^John only like it was a slow sales burn, but there was huge amounts of excitement that, you know, the whole snarky

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing of calling it the Jesus phone, right? With the watch. Touch screens

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are not that new. IOS, we’ve seen the app paradigm as you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we understand that in many respects, it looks like a differently sized iPhone that you can strap on your wish and more importantly,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John wrist. And more importantly, it looks like other smart watches. Yeah, it’s a screen thing with a band around. It looks like a watch. There have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John been a bunch of other ones of those. Um, there’s not as much excitement in terms

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of everyone’s got to be there, uh, you know, on day one to get this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing at launch. And I, what I’m saying is I don’t expect, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think this is going to be as big a bang PR wise launch wise as the phone was. I’m, it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John probably sell more than the phone just because Apple is so much bigger now or whatever it like, but I think this will be a slow burn

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is what I’m getting at. And it’s because it doesn’t have the, it’s not such

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a radical break as the other ones. The Mac was a big thing. It was like this crazy computer with a mouse and the graphical interface

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and bitmap displays and like just so much new all at once. I think the watch will be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John more like the iPod where it’s like, oh, it’s an MP3 player. I’ve seen those before. What’s the big deal about this MP3 player?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh no, this is an MP3 player you’re like. The wheel, yeah, it’s a wheel, I guess. How does that change

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things? What, you know, and it was like, well, you don’t understand. It changes things because we’ve got the hard drive and the FireWire loading,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the interface, the integration with iTunes, and eventually we’re gonna have the store, and like it’s a big store, and you don’t see the whole picture now,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but eventually the iPad’s gonna be a big deal. But the iPad was a slow, the iPad, the iPod was a slow burn,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John right? The watch is gonna be like that. Well, it looks like a smartwatch, kinda like the iPhone, I understand you got a little dial in there,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so what? I guess you’ll probably have apps, but what, you know, what’s the big deal? And if

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all goes to plan, this will be a, you know, I think the launch is going as well as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple could have hoped it was, and people are gonna try them on, sort of come in and there’ll be a big sales day or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and it’s just it’s gonna be have to gain momentum and build it’s not going to be as big of a PR

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bang as the Mac or the iPhone was and hopefully the press

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and the public will give the watch time to grow into what Apple thinks it can be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because if they like Margo said before if they sour on it because of a bad version one it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John much worse to have to dig yourself out of the hole the momentum of the the phone was such that even though

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the first one was kind of cruddy and retrospect the momentum was just so huge that it just carried us through the 3G 3GS

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and by the time people started really paying attention the phone was actually good right the watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John may not have that luxury because the scrutiny is higher but I fully expect the watch to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to reveal itself slowly to customers rather than to be a gigantic bang out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of the gate and these reviews these crop of reviews for the first version fit into that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John idea of the watch revealing itself slowly because I feel like it’s revealing itself to these reviewers

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slowly as well. And it will, you know, maybe this one, the version one won’t, you know, I think these reviews

⏹️ ▶️ ^John are all accurate. They’re an accurate reflection of the version one product, but I don’t think that that reflection

⏹️ ▶️ ^John says much about the future of this product line as a, as a thing inside

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. So before we go, um, I have already spilled the beans and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey told you that I’m intending as I sit here tonight to simply schedule

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a try-on appointment and then regret not having pre-ordered one as I fall in love with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey watch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco What you’ve told us so far is that is everything from you’re not getting the first

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco version to

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} you’re getting the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sport version to you’re getting the black link bracelet which is the highest end one that’s not ridiculously

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco gold.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Right and the one that I’m sticking by is I’m going to make a try-on appointment and see

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey how I feel. You’re getting the link bracelet. I hope not because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey God even though I am such a sucker for the look of it. I think first gen is that’s that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Aggressive you might be able to reuse the bracelet with the next gen

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Maybe yeah, and that’s that’s an interesting point like that, but the problem is that’s still just a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe That’s a pretty big

⏹️ ▶️ ^John problem. I’m just trying to bring Casey into his link bracelet destiny

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I know I mean the reality is Casey like Like, when there is one that you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco really, really want, I think you should get the Link Bracelet. The question is whether this is that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one. And I think that’s where we’re all hesitating.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s definitely not that one. It’s certainly, you know, everybody knows this is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that one. It can’t be. It can’t possibly. It’s the first version, like you absolutely positively know this is not going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to be like, you’re not going to get this and be super happy with it for five years. guaranteed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like you specifically Casey are not going

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} to be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John super happy with this for five years because in five years Can you imagine how much better this watch is it gonna be you’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know how much better it is and you’re gonna be Looking at your old cruddy thing going Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just yeah, that’s that’s not gonna happen so buy accordingly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but at the same time though it’s a balance you know, this is a fashion item and and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco many of us, myself included, Casey I think you too, John we’ll see,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but many of us, the fashionability to ourselves is important,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to me it’s, and I think Casey, please let me know, but I bet you’ll agree,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s less about how it looks to other people and more about how it looks to us, how it makes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco us feel, and so with a watch, with something like this, a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco lot of tech geeks like us are gonna just go with the Sport because it’s cheapest and it does the same things as the other

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ones and that’s fine. Or they wanna wait till version two and that’s fine too. I still might go with the Sport, we’ll get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to that in a minute, I’ll see what happens. But you can’t deny that a big part of the appeal of these

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco devices at all is the way they make you feel about seeing it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on your wrist. And so I think you have to balance that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with the realities of the technology and the realities of this being the version one. You shouldn’t get something

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that you’re gonna really not like wearing, you know. But at the same time, you should be cognizant of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the fact that you’re probably going to be replacing it in two years, say, or possibly less.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I completely agree. And I think you guys both hit the nail on the head that if I was convinced

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that I was going to just fall in love with this device, leaving aside the aesthetics of it, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I knew I’m just going to freaking love this thing, then I would probably get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the ridiculously expensive, what is it, Space Black something black…

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Space Black Link bracelet with $1,100 bucks.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Right. If I was convinced that I was going to love this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey device, I would have to think long and hard about whether or not I really want to spend

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey over $1,000 on this thing. But I would do it because I think it would make

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey me happy every time I look down at my wrist. Marco you hit the nail on the head. The problem I’m having though is I’m getting less and less

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey convinced that I’m going to really fall in love with this device. And if I’m not going to fall in love with the device, and if I were to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey get one at all, which I’m still telling myself is questionable even though it probably isn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey then why not get a sport and so I don’t regret it down the road. Now with that said,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Marco, what’s your plan?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco My plan changes like every day. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} take this from the crypto

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco salt. Oh, that sounds familiar. Because as the new information comes out or as I think about some other consideration,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Oh, wait a minute, what about… My worries

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco here as somebody who has not worn a watch for 20 years, primarily for comfort

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and convenience. And so comfort includes both the weight and the type of band, and then convenience

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco includes how easy is it to take on and off, and the sizing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that goes along with that. So like I said a number of times earlier, my ideal band would be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one that is fixed in size so that I set it however fits me best and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I can attach it and detach it without that size changing. So I don’t have to like find my size

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco every time I put it on and off. The only bands that do that are the modern buckle, which is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco too small for me, and the link bracelet. From that point of view, the link bracelet is tempting because I think it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco be really convenient because you’re going to be taking this thing off every night and possibly, you know, if

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re going to like, you know, submerge your hands for some reason, you know, you you could take it off then, like, you’re gonna be taking these things on and off

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a lot. Possibly more than other watches, depending on what your habits are with other watches. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco either way, it’s gonna be going on and off a lot. So you want it to be as unannoying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as possible during that process. So with that said, I think the link bracelet

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would be the ideal choice for that. However, I also am worried about comfort as a non-watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco wearer and weight. I’m worried, I kinda run hot compared to

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} other people, guess so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m worried about sweatiness and I’m worried about just feeling really heavy the link

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bracelet is the heaviest one that’s not an addition I worry about that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and I also again like you I don’t want to have spent $1,100 on this first

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco generation watch and then in a year or at most two

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco years a much better one comes out and then this thing is worthless and I look back and I’m like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I I was such a fool for spending that much money on version one. And also,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’ve got to figure out, from a non-watch wearer’s point of view, there are other considerations.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco For example, if you ever type on a laptop, metal watches click against the wrist rest.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s not a wrist rest. I know. The wrist area below your wrist that is made of metal that many people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco rest their wrists on, you can scratch the heck out of one of those things with a metal watch. It at least clicks

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and is very annoying. If you’re resting your arm on a hard surface, a desk or a table, it can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco click there with metal and you can get used to it over time, like a wedding ring, but it’s still like you will be clicking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a metal thing against a surface a lot. Every single band they offer has something

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on the bottom. Even the sport band has a metal pin on the bottom that will hit whatever surface you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco near except the leather loop. Every other one has something like that. So that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is a concern as well. concerns. That’s one of my worries with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco fluoridestimer band is sweatiness. Having that rubber there against my skin, I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that would be a problem. And for me, having all those considerations,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the three that I’m considering finally are the Milanese

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco loop, the leather loop, and the link bracelet. The link bracelet, I have basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ruled out for cost reasons. I also like… Other people love the way they look. To me,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t have any association with that except for older men. Like, older men always seem to have watches

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with link bracelets. I don’t care either way on them, so I look at link bracelets

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and they kind of look old-fashioned to me. And because of the weight and the price as well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m ruling that out. And Milanese versus Leather Loop, they’re very similar, just one’s made

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of metal and one’s leather, really. Like, they work the same way, basically. And I think between those two, I think I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Leather Loop because I believe it will be more comfortable on me, even though it might be slightly sweatier, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think it’ll be more comfortable. I think it will probably look better on me, because I really dress very casually,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and the Milanese is a little bit formal, so I dress very casually. I wear

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a black T-shirt and jeans most of the time. So I think black leather loop, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sorry for this massive discussion, but this is actually all the thought I put into this. So anyway, what I will be pre-ordering

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco will be the 42 black leather loop, and I’m going stainless steel. So one of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco options that I could do instead, get one of the sport watches and then add a leather

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco loop band separately for $150 more. You can do that with any of the bands except for the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco black link or the additions. That, and that would cost about $150 less if I did that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco The problem is I think of, like what I said earlier about balancing, like how much will

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I be happy looking at this thing on my wrist? How much am I gonna want to wear this thing as a fashion

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco item versus not wanting to spend too much on Generation 1,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think the sport, I’m just not going to feel good about. I don’t look at the sport

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and say, wow, I want that on my wrist. I just don’t. That applies to both the bands and the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco appearance of the watch body itself, even though it would be lighter. I think the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maximum comfort option for people who are very concerned about comfort, the maximum comfort

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco option, I believe, will be the sport. And even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if you don’t like the sport band, then get a sport watch and get the leather loop, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re still coming in cheaper than the steel with leather loop, and it’s going to be lighter. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for me, to strike that balance between what I actually want to see on my wrist,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what I actually think will look good on me, what I will be proud to wear, but not having spent too much

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco money on it. I like the 42 steel leather lute black.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That was meandering, but I hear you and it makes sense and I’m with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you. Now, John, as the hairiest of the three of us, who is probably most

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey concerned about the status of your arm hair, what is your intention?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, it would be nice if Apple would just send me one to review and I would talk about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it on the show because I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} not a watcher.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Why are you the only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one? I would like one too. You guys are gonna buy one anyway. They don’t need to send you one, but I’m not a… They have to woo

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you. Yeah, I’m not a watch wearer. I don’t wear watches. I’m really curious about this device.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You have to get it because you’re making an app for it. Like, you have to get it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But I’m curious about the device. I’m curious if this can make me wear a watch,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it’s very likely that if I were to get one, it would end up in a drawer, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like, I would, that it would not take. It would be like, I would try it out, I would understand the experience it’s providing,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I would say, you know what, I still don’t like ever wearing anything on my wrist. Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t generally like wearing things, this is why I don’t wear something on my wrist. But I’m willing to believe that this could

⏹️ ▶️ ^John change my mind about that. So if I did get one, I think I would just have to get the cheapest

⏹️ ▶️ ^John possible one because I have no faith in this thing being a longstanding thing. I know the next versions are gonna be better.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t want anything that’s sluggish. It’s actually worse. If I did end up really liking the watch, oh, this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is really now an integral part of my life for whatever reason, I would regret even more getting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the crappy model. Or the fact that the version one is crappy. I would be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like, man, if I knew that the watch was going to be such an important part of my life, I should wait till version two

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or version three. Hell, I waited for the iPhone six to get an iPhone, right? And

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} I probably would

⏹️ ▶️ ^John still be getting iPod touches. I just don’t entirely see the place this fits into

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my life. But because it’s an interesting gadget, I would like to play with it for a week. So it would be ideal

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if Apple would send me one and then I would play with it for a week and then guilt-free when that week is over, send it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John back to Apple and say, I’ve gotten the Apple Watch experience. At the end of that experience, I’ll either know that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I should go out and buy the sport model because I really like this watch and I’ll buy the cheapest one now

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I’ll get a version two or I would know that I should go out and buy the sport model

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because that model is actually gonna be sufficient for my needs and I could use it for a long period of time. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pretty much no world in which I pay a thousand bucks for one of these things without knowing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John first that it’s, there’s no way, because I know that it’s like sluggish and doesn’t quite,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, it’s a version one product. There’s no way I can justify spending $1,000 on it. Even though

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I really hate the look of the sport models. I don’t like the sort of non-shiny

⏹️ ▶️ ^John aluminum. I don’t like the fluorescent bands, the floresc, florescimer, whatever it is, fluorescent

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bands, I don’t like the colors. I don’t like the white. The black is the only one I could tolerate. I don’t really like the sport band.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I have wrist shape and hair concerns. Like, it just, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just, you know, I’m almost, it’s almost like I would buy the thing, take off the straps, and then like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John use it as a pocket watch, or as like the world’s tiniest iPod. You know, I guess you have to strap it yourself.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Isn’t that an iPhone?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t know, you know what I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} mean.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I like, I just, I’m just not a watch guy. I don’t know. So right now, I really, especially

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you two get them, I feel like we’ll have the show covered, you guys can talk about them, and I can, you know, I’ll go to the store

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I’ll play with them. Man, I really don’t see myself getting one of these, although I would definitely like to play with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one for a week. So that’s the situation I find myself in. If I do get one, it’s going to be the cheapest

⏹️ ▶️ ^John possible one. And then I look at the cheap ones, I don’t even know what the heck I would get. I guess the gray aluminum

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with black, which I don’t find attractive at all, but at least it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Dayglo green or white or, ugh, I don’t know. I really do like the stainless steel

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ones as a little piece of, as a little piece of sculpture. Still wouldn’t want it on my wrist, but I think those look the nicest.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, so in summary, I definitely won’t be getting the 42 millimeter black

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey link bracelet. Marco definitely will be getting the 42 millimeter stainless steel with the black leather

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} loop.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, hold on, I said I would be pre-ordering that one, but that’s gonna be before I have a chance to try any of them.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} Mm-hmm.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So I might change my mind, but I don’t think so. I bet this is gonna be the one I end up with.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And John definitely, and when I say definitely, I really mean it this time won’t be getting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the 42 millimeter space gray sport.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And I haven’t even seen these watches in person either, by the way, in any context. So I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} would,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John nor have I, I will look at them at the store in person. It could be that the, that maybe I’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John won over by something that I think is ugly in pictures or vice versa. Um, but either way,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no plans to buy one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. Now I think it would be silly of me not to ask our,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey our spouses looking into buying them. And I can tell you that Aaron is completely uninterested in every

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey plausible, impossible way. So, Marco, what does Tiff think?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco She is interested in general in the concept, but not that excited

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco about version 1. And she knows—see, she’s playing it smart. She said,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like, she knows version 2 is going to be way better. And so she is going to wait.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco She really actually doesn’t want version 1. And she also has a little bit of skepticism about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whether she wants to wear a watch at all because she also right now doesn’t. We are a watchless family right now.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So she’s going to at least sit out version one as far as she knows so far. And of course, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco look, all of our opinions could change, you know, maybe once we see them, things will be different. But right now

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco she is saying, wait for version two.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, version three, though, because like you imagine, do we agree that version two will have the same case as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this? No, you don’t think so?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco iPad 2 didn’t have the same case as the iPad 1 the iPhone 2 didn’t have the same case as the iPhone 1

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know But I think of the watch specifically I I mean with the exception of possible changes to the air gap

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I expect the second version especially if it comes like you said as early, you know If you consider this a six months delayed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John product, I think that the next version of this watch will Externally look more or less the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and just have an upgraded CPU and maybe a slightly better slash different screen and come out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Fairly shortly after this one. That’s that’s my prediction there So if that’s the case, version three of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the watch is the one you want, because you’re hoping at that point it Slims down or it has a different look. I guess it depends on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how much you like this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey look See, I think that the next one version two will retain the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey same connections for the for the bands But I think its physical

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey dimensions may change so it’ll be a little thinner But the but the bands will remain functional

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on the new one on the second gen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They could shave a few millimeters if they did the screen lamination, I suppose So in that case, it wouldn’t strictly be exactly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John identical, you know, like that It would actually be thinner but not but like the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John same little Airstream trailer same number of buttons same digital crown design Like the whole you know that it would be recognizably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the same watch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, maybe I Don’t I wouldn’t really bet confidently either way

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. And then John what is Tina planning?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I tried to picture on it like because it’s it’s better for me If I can convince someone else

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} that they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John really want that like if she was super excited about it by all means we would get whatever one she’s super excited about as long as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not gold obviously and then she would be the guinea pig and be like what do you think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how is this working you know blah blah and I wouldn’t have to have something on my wrist but she is not excited about it so she’s not getting one either.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So only two of the six of us are getting one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m not admitting it to myself and you’re probably right but sitting here now no it’s only you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You’re definitely getting one. I think the only question is which one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, we’ll see. Remind me of all of this in like two weeks.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Igloo, Audible, and Hover, and we will see you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco next week.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was accidental Oh, it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it was accidental. And you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at atp.fm, and if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you can follow them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s, I have no

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco doubt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that the best-selling one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco best-selling one among nerds, best-selling one among listeners

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of our show, among listeners of any tech podcast, possibly among listeners of any podcast,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and definitely among attendees of WBDC this year will be the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 42mm Space Grey Sport model with the black band. That is like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we’re going to see a million of those things among people we know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I think you’re probably right because of the sport, I think the Space Grey is far and away the best-looking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey one.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just sound like little inert ones kind of like the empty uh what were they the empty lifesavers iMac

⏹️ ▶️ ^John cases do you remember those like comp usa when the iMac came in a whole bunch of colors they gave retailers

⏹️ ▶️ ^John empty iMac cases with no guts inside them but just the case themselves to see what the different colors look like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John i would like a watch that is a strap the case the glass but nothing inside it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John no screen no internals right just so you could have it on your wrist occasionally like fiddle with the dial

⏹️ ▶️ ^John i guess they would It’s thought to have the dial connected to something or whatever, press the button. Maybe they leave a vibration

⏹️ ▶️ ^John engine in there too and it would also occasionally vibrate, but nothing, you know, it doesn’t actually function. Just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to get you used to the idea of like, do you want something on your wrist? Because that’s what I need. I need, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a training bra for watches. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} need something that’s just gonna

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get me used to the idea or whatever the equivalent is in like horse bridles or whatever, someone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John who plays polo can tell us all about it. Like, just something to put on and get me used to the idea of that something’s gonna be gripping

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my wrist. And if I get used to that, then maybe I’ll pay the extra money to get the fully functional version.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I find it a little weird that you’re so stressed out, both of you are so stressed out about having something on your wrist,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey because I was a watch person for forever. And I gave it up for years.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I couldn’t tell you how many, I’d say maybe four or five years I gave it up, probably more than that actually.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I didn’t wear a watch. And when I started wearing a watch again, which

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey was maybe a year or so ago, at first I was like, oh god, what is on my wrist and that lasted

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like two days and that was it and then suddenly I was Extremely happy about having a super

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey convenient timepiece right on my wrist. So I John your your hair

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey challenges aside. I think that you’re over blowing a bit you’re over blowing a bit how

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Difficult it is.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Keep in mind that I don’t even wear my wedding ring anymore I wore my wedding ring for

⏹️ ▶️ ^John years after getting married and you’re right you do basically get used to it But eventually I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John got unused to it again and even the wedding ring went off. So like this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John type of thing where you do kind of get used to it but it is still kind of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slightly inconvenient and occasionally snags on things and occasionally pulls an arm hair and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you got to, you know, remember it and deal with it. That’s the type of thing that I say that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I have antibodies against that. That I will eventually say, you know what, yes,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not a big deal that I have my wedding ring all the time. comfortable ring it’s fine but every once in a while it annoys me so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John why am I doing this and so no I don’t wear my wedding ring and I you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it this watch would have to earn its place to my wrist by doing something useful for me

⏹️ ▶️ ^John um I’m not even entirely sure that my phone has earned its place because if they honestly speaking if they continue

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to update the iPod touch I would probably still be buying them

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey now do you when you go out do you feel naked if you don’t have your phone on your person

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey because when I… Absolutely not. Okay now what about you Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Oh yeah I would… when I go walk the dog I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bring a wallet or usually any kind of keys or anything, no cash, no identification,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but I bring my phone. I like I feel okay leaving the house without a wallet, on foot at least,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but I would not leave without my phone.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah see and I think that, well John is John, but Marco, I think that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you will come to that point with the watch very quickly, much quicker than you

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} expect.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John If it does something useful for you. I mean, like think of all the times you saw me before I got my iPhone 6.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s not like I was carrying my other cell phone with me most of the time. It’s like I didn’t, a phone,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I didn’t care. I have to- Well, you were hiding it from us. Well, no, but like I was, you know, how many times did you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John see me take or make a call on that phone? Most of the time it wasn’t with me, and if it was with me, it wasn’t doing anything. It would only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be with me at like, Like that little thing you keep in the pocket by your door to break the glass in case

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your car goes off into the water. Like it’s only there for emergencies. It’s not there to actually be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John used or it doesn’t have a place in my life. I have to remember to bring my wallet with me so I don’t get pulled over and not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have my license, right? I travel light and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the watch, it has the advantage that I guess I would have to strap it to myself in the morning and it would just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John always be with me but I can imagine forgetting to do that and getting to work and going, oh, another morning I forgot to put on my watch. that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thing that I bought for 300 something dollars that I haven’t still haven’t found a use for.