Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

111: That Big Ring Underground Somewhere in Europe

Apple TV vs. Fire TV and Roku, ARM Mac rumors, and weighing Twitter’s usefulness against its abuse.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no idea what day it is anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s still Thursday. What week is it? The first week of April is that right? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even know is the watch out yet. I know it’s not soon, but not yet All right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey check your wrist. Yeah, just look at your wrist.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s hair o’clock. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hair o’clock. All right So do we have some follow-up starting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with cooking apparently seriously, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco awesome

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this was last week on the toaster episode I was making fun of the temperatures printed on the

⏹️ ▶️ John glass door of the toaster saying that 160 to 170 is not an appropriate temperature for pork despite the

⏹️ ▶️ John fact that it is printed on the door of the toaster that I tested last week.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I also blamed the government for these crazy temperature ratings because

⏹️ ▶️ John they tend to be super conservative to make sure you don’t get any foodborne illnesses. Well, I was told by several people

⏹️ ▶️ John that the government had in fact changed their recommended temperature to pork. They changed it in 2011.

⏹️ ▶️ John when people mentioned this to me, I then recalled reading the story back then. But anyway, the government now

⏹️ ▶️ John recommends 145 for pork, which is a perfectly sane temperature for pork, and it will make it not

⏹️ ▶️ John taste like cardboard. So everybody, you can say the government says, the US

⏹️ ▶️ John government, that is that you can safely cook your pork to 145 and eat it and not have it taste like cardboard.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, well, I feel better knowing that piece of information. I don’t know about you guys. All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So why don’t you tell us about the F 16. That

⏹️ ▶️ John was another thing last week. I don’t know how the hell that came by. I think it was forced touch trackpad You know the trackpad doesn’t move but it feels

⏹️ ▶️ John like it moves and it reminded me of the stick in the f-16 which doesn’t move

⏹️ ▶️ John a couple people knowledgeable about this stuff wrote and tell me that the f-16 the original

⏹️ ▶️ John f-16 stick didn’t move at all and The pilots found it disconcerting because there was no feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John and so it was modified so that it moves slightly Some people say fractions of an inch some people say it moves an inch total

⏹️ ▶️ John I saw a video of it at one point moving it doesn’t move much But it moves a little bit because there was no feedback It just felt kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of weird and I didn’t I wasn’t sure about the f-18 and people have earned to tell me that the f-18

⏹️ ▶️ John stick does move and It actually is a it has a mechanical

⏹️ ▶️ John connection to the flight controls as a backup I remember reading about that years ago fly-by-wire

⏹️ ▶️ John thing before drive-by-wire came to cars not that we want to turn this into neutral already But, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John Flybywire came to planes first, where the controls were not hooked up to the, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John things that you put your hands on were not hooked up to the, uh, control surfaces of the plane by a mechanical

⏹️ ▶️ John connection, but rather just by, like, you would move the stick, and it would figure out what you were trying to do, and then it would instruct electronics

⏹️ ▶️ John to move the control surfaces of the plane. And, predictably, that freaked out pilots, like, oh, I got, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I gotta have a direct connection, I don’t trust these computers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, they made it triply and quadruply redundant.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, in the f18 its fly-by-wire my understanding But there is a backup system where if

⏹️ ▶️ John the fly-by-wire system fails, you can still move the surfaces with a stick So, there you

⏹️ ▶️ John go the f16 and needed with its unmoving stick needed some haptic

⏹️ ▶️ John feedback as well I guess they did decide not to go with vibration and just go with tiny amounts of movement, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it still seems pretty weird

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s definitely wonky. But hey, whatever works Tell us about the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey current MacBook Pro and how many monitors you can connect to it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, last week talking about the confusion of what would happen if they had two

⏹️ ▶️ John USB-C ports on the new MacBook, but it only supported

⏹️ ▶️ John two monitors, so you could only have the internal monitor and one external monitor. Wouldn’t it be confusing that you had this other port that you thought you could

⏹️ ▶️ John hook something into it? I said it would not be confusing because you would know that you bought a machine that only supports dual displays.

⏹️ ▶️ John You would know. Yeah, and Frank and Frank wrote in to tell me well the current MacBook Pro only

⏹️ ▶️ John supports two external displays But it has three places you can plug in a monitor So those people must just be

⏹️ ▶️ John thoroughly confused when they plug in that third monitor and it doesn’t work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so there were two big Pieces of follow-up that we got or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two pieces of follow-up that we got often One of them was everyone getting angry at you for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey falling into the Steve Jobs said or Steve Jobs did trap Would you like to defend yourself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s not it’s one of those things where there’s sort of shared cultural knowledge of a meme or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever and it All nuance is wrung out of that meme and the meme is kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of when when Tim Cooks took over Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs died Among

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple nerd community there were there were a lot of there was a lot of pushback on the idea

⏹️ ▶️ John On the other stories that were coming and saying oh jobs is gone He was the only one who could have led Apple to victory

⏹️ ▶️ John now no matter what Tim Cook does, he’s doomed without jobs, Apple can’t innovate. And everything Tim Cook did

⏹️ ▶️ John it was well, Steve Jobs would have done it this way. Well, he’s no Steve Jobs. Well, Steve Jobs would have done that. And so the blowback

⏹️ ▶️ John meme in our little circle was always, I don’t want to see anyone comparing anything Tim does to Steve

⏹️ ▶️ John Jobs. I don’t want to see anyone ever saying Steve Jobs would have done this and would have done that. The spirit was

⏹️ ▶️ John that meme was developed in was worthwhile. And that when that transition did take place, there were

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of those hysterical stories about how Apple could never possibly succeed without Steve Jobs and so on.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it has morphed into, it is now impossible to ever compare and contrast Steve Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John and Tim Cook. And that premise I reject. I think it is perfectly valid to compare and contrast Steve Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John and Tim Cook, whether or not you think one is better than the other, and whether or not you want to make that particular case.

⏹️ ▶️ John In the last episode, I was comparing them directly on things that they had each done with the

⏹️ ▶️ John product line, not saying, well, like, what would Steve Jobs have done about the watch or some product that didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John that he didn’t even know about I don’t even know about the watch but anyway that type of thing I think is not

⏹️ ▶️ John as useful but still I think is a valid line of inquiry as long as you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John using it as a cudgel to say like Steve Jobs would never have done that therefore what Tim Cook is doing

⏹️ ▶️ John is wrong because Steve Jobs was infallible and so on and so forth so anyway I reject that criticism because I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it is useful to compare these things and as long long as you do it in a thoughtful way and not

⏹️ ▶️ John just you know elevate Steve Jobs to godhood and use him as a way to say whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John Tim Cook does is bad or to try to support your own opinion by saying I think the watch

⏹️ ▶️ John is a dumb idea and Steve Jobs would have agreed with me as he was here he’s always right therefore I’m right because

⏹️ ▶️ John I I’m telling you what Steve Jobs would have thought about the watcher you know I again I don’t know if he knew about the watch it would be better if we

⏹️ ▶️ John had an example of a product that we were sure the Steve Jobs never knew about. But a lot of these things have been in the works

⏹️ ▶️ John for a long time. But anyway, that’s that’s how I feel about the comparisons to Steve Jobs.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you stand by your comparison from last week?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, totally. Because I you know, it is not like completely speculative. I’m not using the ghost of Steve

⏹️ ▶️ John Jobs to try to support my opinion. I said I didn’t even know which strategy was better than Tim Cook, one of the Steve Jobs one and I could go

⏹️ ▶️ John either way on it and it’s not clear like it’s not it. It is completely valid. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. Let’s wake Marco up and have him tell us about something awesome and then he can go back to sleep for a few more minutes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Something going on? We doing a podcast? Something like that. Is this the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show? Is this what people tune in for? Do

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to explain why you’re all sleepy? Because no one’s going to know why you’re all sleepy when they like you. You think that everyone follows

⏹️ ▶️ John your life down to the tweet on Twitter, but people are going to listen to this who haven’t been following you on Twitter have no idea

⏹️ ▶️ John why you’re out of it. So why don’t you explain that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thank God. I’m so tired of Twitter. People are so nasty there. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly, I’m pulling away from Twitter. I think I, it’s just not worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. It is simply not worth it. You haven’t even been tweeting that much. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m pulling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco away from Twitter. All right,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, maybe we’ll save this for the after show and we’ll have a therapy session and see what’s going on on your Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. Well, it isn’t anything recent. It’s like I’m slowly realizing over the course

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of time that Twitter is a tricky balance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco between whether it makes your life better or worse overall. And I’ve been questioning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what the value of it is for me recently and whether it is a net gain or loss. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe it’s probably a net gain still, but the ratio there is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not as good as it should be. So I’m really not incredibly happy with it. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m exploring ways to try to fix it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Young man, when you are tired of Twitter, you are tired of life. Another reference you will

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco not get from a

⏹️ ▶️ John long time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ago. So the reason I sound like this, and the reason I’m out of it and probably not making any sense

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is because I have just returned from a trip across the Atlantic Ocean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Ireland for the wonderful OOLE conference and I would tell you how amazing it is in great detail,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco however Casey didn’t get to go this year and it would just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John be cruel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me to tell you how awesome it was, but suffice to say it was awesome and I’ve been awake for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco approximately 22 hours now. I forget what time my body thinks it is. It doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really matter, but I’m a zombie and I sound like this so I apologize.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So I had said earlier that there were two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey major pieces of follow-up that we had got a lot of complaining about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey via the feedback.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Just two?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, this week there were two. And the other one had to do with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some of the statements we made on fabbing RAM, which in turn were based on some follow-up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we had gotten two weeks ago. So John, do you want to set all this straight?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this was my memory. I would which I just asserted as fact the first time I talked about it that

⏹️ ▶️ John that when when using a when fabbing silicon chips that the first thing they do to work out the

⏹️ ▶️ John kinks in a new process size was fab ram because it’s simple and very regular And not as complicated as

⏹️ ▶️ John actual full-fledged CPU And then we got some feedback that said no no actually DRAM is really complicated

⏹️ ▶️ John because they have capacitors They’re like they’re not like two flat plates facing each other It’s like a tube within a tube and it’s really

⏹️ ▶️ John complicated to fab them and actually it’s much harder harder to fab those capacitors than just regular plain

⏹️ ▶️ John old logic transistors. So that’s definitely not the case. And I was like, all right, well, you know, maybe my data is old.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe I’m just remembering this from when I was a kid and I never revisited maybe when they pass through like 32

⏹️ ▶️ John nanometers, something changed because you know, things get weird when you start getting really small process sizes. Like who knows, maybe he’s

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna have x ray lithography. Maybe we already have x ray lithography. That’s how much I’ve been keeping up with it as in not much. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it just

⏹️ ▶️ John shrink, shrink, shrink, it’s going to shrink your whole life. We should have a whole episode about the end of Morris law, by the way, because

⏹️ ▶️ John Moore’s law has existed for most of our life where it’s like, oh, you know, they just keep shrinking the process, but like

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t take a genius to figure out you can’t keep shrinking forever. Eventually you get

⏹️ ▶️ John down to the things that they’re slamming together in that big ring underground somewhere in Europe. And

⏹️ ▶️ John and you run into some problems. But anyway, we’re not there yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so last week I said, what the heck was I remembering with this whole fabbing ram first? Am I just crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John or was it something they used to do but don’t do anymore and I got a lot of people Who would be in positions to know

⏹️ ▶️ John telling me that what I was it wasn’t that they don’t fab ram It’s that they found sram not dram

⏹️ ▶️ John sram is the stuff you used to make like the caches and stuff on CPUs It is not the same as dram

⏹️ ▶️ John It is much more expensive than dram and faster because you need to use way more transistors per bit of stored memory

⏹️ ▶️ John But unlike dram it doesn’t need to be refreshed every X number of milliseconds Anyway, we’ll link to the the

⏹️ ▶️ John the SRAM Wikipedia page. SRAM is not a new thing But the point is SRAM does not is not

⏹️ ▶️ John filled with capacitors It’s just a bunch of logic gates and it is very regular and that is what they use to test out the kinks

⏹️ ▶️ John in New processes. In fact, we have someone Andrew Yang from I Don’t know. He’s not the one from Intel. We

⏹️ ▶️ John had someone else from Intel But anyway He links to an an and tech story from a while back Specifically talking about

⏹️ ▶️ John SRAM the an and tech story says the good old SRAM test vehicle is a great way to iron out bugs in the manufacturing

⏹️ ▶️ John process. And he talks about how Intel was demoing in 2007 their 32 nanometer SRAM test chip.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Eric, who used to work at Intel until 2006, says that each new process

⏹️ ▶️ John node, an SD RAM module was fabbed prior to the main production of CPUs. I saw someone else,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have the notes here, was saying that that measurement of how small were you able to get

⏹️ ▶️ John SRAM is kind of like the yardstick for how you’re doing on your process size. Like, oh, we first got SRAM down to this size

⏹️ ▶️ John at this date or whatever. So there you go. one letter makes a difference. If you don’t know the difference between s RAM and D RAM,

⏹️ ▶️ John I encourage you to read the Wikipedia pages that we will put in the show notes because all RAM is crazy and examining

⏹️ ▶️ John the difference between s RAM and D RAM will make you appreciate the stuff inside your computer that you never need to think about.

⏹️ ▶️ John And finally, Gordon McGregor sent us a link to a chart that shows process size and

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t quite understand this chart and it seems to contradict some of the things I just said. But this chart shows that

⏹️ ▶️ John D RAM still leads process development versus logic, but the gap is closing over time. Did you guys look at this graph

⏹️ ▶️ John here? No. It is somewhat confusing. It shows logic and then DRAM and then NAND flash

⏹️ ▶️ John and uh, I don’t know what that other line is there. Anyway, I will leave the graph in the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes if anyone wants to parse that out and figure out what it is I’m looking at there. Uh, but I’m fairly convinced that what

⏹️ ▶️ John I was remembering was SRAM and not DRAM in that first little letter. Makes all the difference.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That took surprisingly little

⏹️ ▶️ John time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m very proud of you. I tried to trim it down. I didn’t want it. There was some more rehashing of the new MacBook, but I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ve covered

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Yeah, I think we can definitely never talk about the one port on the MacBook again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh no, not when Apple sends us all our free sample copies, then we’ll talk about it some more.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, that, yeah. Oh, I didn’t mention I got five of them in my mailbox today.

⏹️ ▶️ John I said, check your wrist, you’re wearing two Apple Watches right now!

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my god, you’re right! If it were only that easy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh damn, it’s the sport.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so it’s funny that this is the week that we run through follow-up so quickly because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we don’t really have any terribly pressing topics. That’s right.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now, where is your follow-up now? That’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you get. All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I don’t know which one of you guys put this in the show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey notes, but would you like to talk about Arm Max and roadmap rumors?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we all would. I think we should all bring up this page, which is from a long time ago, and it is a It’s a completely unsubstantiated

⏹️ ▶️ John rumor as far as I can tell.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we ran out of topics, so we’re moving from discussing new BS rumors to discussing ancient

⏹️ ▶️ Marco BS rumors.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, well, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John this BS rumor is a jumping off point. First of all, it’s in one of those sub communities

⏹️ ▶️ John that we don’t really travel in, like the whole semiconductor forums, where

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re debating, they’re really into who’s particular process size and what particular technology

⏹️ ▶️ John is getting what contract for what chip and you know all that stuff. So

⏹️ ▶️ John at the very least like anyway look at this story it talks about like the A9,

⏹️ ▶️ John the A10, the A9X, the A10X, the S1 and the S2 all names that you could very easily make up based

⏹️ ▶️ John on you know Apple’s current naming of their chips and who might get those contracts

⏹️ ▶️ John and what technology they’re using and the the date they’re supposed to start production and contracts that

⏹️ ▶️ John are split over different fabs like Samsung and TSMC and Global Foundry and whether Intel is fabbing

⏹️ ▶️ John anything. And there’s a big table showing all this information, most of which is not

⏹️ ▶️ John that big of a deal except from the perspective of Apple, you know, how is Apple managing

⏹️ ▶️ John its relationship with its fiercest competitor Samsung that it is still relying on to fab

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of its chips and that’s always an uncomfortable situation and we’ve talked in the past about perhaps getting Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John into the mix here because they are usually at the forefront of process technology,

⏹️ ▶️ John very often far ahead of the rest of the field but so far Apple hasn’t been using them for anything but it’s because of course Intel has their

⏹️ ▶️ John own chips they want you to use instead of ARM. Anyway inside this entire story

⏹️ ▶️ John is a one-line item showing on the A9X and A10X line it’s well

⏹️ ▶️ John on the A9, A10 it says those for the iPhone on the Apple Watch it says of course the S1 and the S2 and then it talks

⏹️ ▶️ John about the baseband chip on the iPhone and iPad and then the middle item it says A9X, A10X,

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad and Mac And that is not an exciting part of the story really to the people

⏹️ ▶️ John discussing this because all they care about is who’s fabbing and What technology it’s on but it’s like I’ll just throw that in there Yeah, of course the

⏹️ ▶️ John a9x and the a10x of course, they’ll be max based on those

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and this is the eternal

⏹️ ▶️ John Arm-based Mac remember that we’ve talked about at length in the past. I think it was worth revisiting

⏹️ ▶️ John Do we think anything has changed on on the feasibility and likability of? of ARM-based

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs in light of, let’s say, like the new MacBook with its 5-watt CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John and the very latest iPad Air 2 with its benchmarks versus the existing

⏹️ ▶️ John computers. Do we think now is the time? Do we believe this, you know, little table

⏹️ ▶️ John here any more than we did in the past? Or is it just still a wait-and-see attitude?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I actually had an interesting and related realization at work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other day. One of my co-workers, who is not a developer, She had just swapped

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a Dell MacBook Air knockoff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for an actual MacBook Air. And this MacBook Air happened to be a few years old. I don’t recall exactly when it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey built. But she didn’t have VMware

⏹️ ▶️ Casey installed. Now, typically, when we used to issue Macs to everyone, doesn’t matter if you’re a developer or not,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey our IT department of one would install VMware Fusion

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on every single Mac, because inevitably all of these people, be it business people, developers,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever, are going to need to do something in Windows that they can’t do in OSX.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so our IT guy would just get ahead of the curve and just put VMware Fusion on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there. And I went to do something in VMware Fusion on her machine. I can’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what it was, but it doesn’t really matter. And VMware Fusion wasn’t there. And that was a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little bit odd for me because I thought it was a given that say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Visio, if nothing else, that VMware would be on every, every Mac we hand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out in the company. And it isn’t. And that relates to this discussion

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I have to imagine that virtualizing a Windows installation,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unless it was whatever that weirdo version of Windows is that runs on the surface, the arm surfaces,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey virtualizing a a Windows installation on an ARM Mac would be unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slow. I mean, we’ve talked about this in the past, but my recollection of Macs before I ever touched a Mac was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they would have like separate daughter boards on some of these old Macs that would basically be a PC on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a daughter board that you would plug into your Mac in order to make emulation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of PCs way faster. Do you know what I’m talking about, John?

⏹️ ▶️ John They had those, but nobody owned them. Like you would never see one in the wild. They made a couple of machines that you could do that with, a

⏹️ ▶️ John couple of third parties, actual shoulder card, but it was not a thing like virtual PC was the thing and that was

⏹️ ▶️ John all emulated x86 PC on my power PC Mac and it was super

⏹️ ▶️ John slow.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly, exactly. And so that’s what that’s, that’s one of the things that I love

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about my max. And this is granted directly driven by the fact that I do all of my work on the Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stack. But nonetheless, I love being able to boot into when I don’t love being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey being able to boot into Windows, but I love being able to get my job done by booting into Windows. in using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Visual Studio and doing all that sort of thing. But it was very interesting to me that someone who isn’t a developer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently doesn’t need Windows anymore. And that’s a change from just a couple of years back, at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in my workplace. And that is kind of what you were talking about, John. Is this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more feasible now? Well, I don’t know, but certainly could be. John

⏹️ ▶️ John Svazic I think it’s not just Windows, because we always think, oh, x86, it’s great that we can run Windows software. And now

⏹️ ▶️ John finally, this divide that existed for so long. It was Mac versus PC and it was the

⏹️ ▶️ John software compatibility problem and when Apple went x86 it was you know cutting the Gordian knot and say

⏹️ ▶️ John game over it is not an issue anymore you can boot Windows on these things there is no excuse

⏹️ ▶️ John not to you not to get this Mac right you know I mean they can do it can do everything you can kind of look at it as a transitional

⏹️ ▶️ John thing like we need to we need to be able to do what the competition can do long

⏹️ ▶️ John enough to defeat the competition and then it doesn’t matter anymore. It’s not like the Mac is defeating Windows PCs,

⏹️ ▶️ John but what’s happening is that, you know, the PC is being defeated by every by mobile, right? And so

⏹️ ▶️ John it becomes less relevant. What goes on down here in the PC world and maybe Windows becomes

⏹️ ▶️ John less relevant. Even Microsoft is bringing all that stuff to be, you know, net net based services

⏹️ ▶️ John and cloud subscriptions and web based things. And, you know, it’s just the

⏹️ ▶️ John stakes are a lot lower. you know, the need for Windows is a lot lower.

⏹️ ▶️ John Within specific applications, like if you really need to use Windows stuff, x86 I think is still indispensable

⏹️ ▶️ John for those things. I don’t think it’s feasible for Apple to go all ARM for a variety of reasons.

⏹️ ▶️ John And for x86, so the reason I bring up Windows is from my perspective, in my particular

⏹️ ▶️ John job and everyone’s varies, Windows, yes, is important, but I feel like Linux is just as important.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you say, well, it doesn’t matter. Linux runs on everything. Linux doesn’t need x86. You’re right, Linux does run on everything. I had Linux on my PowerPC

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac. There was lots of different distributions. But practically speaking, it’s a lot easier to get

⏹️ ▶️ John binary packages and to work out compilation problems than to just sort out everything

⏹️ ▶️ John you need to sort out on x86-64 Linux, right? Because that is the sweet spot. That

⏹️ ▶️ John is what everyone’s using. That’s the common thing. And if you have some exotic CPU, like ARM or PowerPC

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, you are a little bit off the beaten path. Is that a big deal? No, but it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John a hassle. It’s an annoyance. It’s the kind of thing that Mac users used to have to deal with, because like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John I can do that, but I’m a little bit different. It’s like OS X in the beginning. You’d try to compile your Unix

⏹️ ▶️ John software, and it’d be like, you can build it on a Mac, but it’s kind of weird. You might have to tweak a make file. And it’s like, why doesn’t this just build

⏹️ ▶️ John out of the box? Luckily, all the people who maintain software packages for Unix

⏹️ ▶️ John seem to get Macs, because it only took a few years for all those packages to start building. And now you just expect, if I get

⏹️ ▶️ John something from the open source world, it will build on the Mac, If it doesn’t, you’re angry

⏹️ ▶️ John at somebody. So we’ve already become entitled. Like, how dare that thing not build on the Mac, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, I think x86 still serves a role as the sort of common base

⏹️ ▶️ John Windows, Mac, Linux, even though the Mac in the past has run on different platforms. And even though Linux

⏹️ ▶️ John in the present runs on a bazillion different platforms, and even Windows has at various times run on different platforms. There’s an ARM

⏹️ ▶️ John version of Windows now. There was a PowerPC version of Windows NT for people who are really old and remember that one.

⏹️ ▶️ John But x86 is still that commonality. So regardless of what goes on in the low end of ARM, I have

⏹️ ▶️ John to think that Apple would have to keep x86-64 at the very

⏹️ ▶️ John least on the high end for some period of time. And the thing that trips me up about the ARM-based Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John is like, so do you have two different CPUs in Macs for a

⏹️ ▶️ John long period, for multiple years, where you can get both ARM Macs and x86 Macs?

⏹️ ▶️ John That seems like more trouble than it’s worth

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me. Yeah, that seems weird. I mean, that’s what Microsoft is doing with the Surface, right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because they have the Surface, oh, what is it, RT, which is- Windows RT, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry, I’m conflating them. But yeah, there’s a Surface that runs ARM, which at least the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey early ones, I haven’t kept up with the later ones, but a few coworkers go to build every year, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of the Microsoft WWDC, if you will. It’s in Moscone, the whole rigmarole. And anyway, unlike

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple, Microsoft gives away all sorts of awesome goodies.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like I think they got Xbox ones last year, et cetera. Well, anyways, um, they got surface RTs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of years ago and they said that they were great for the three or four or 10 pieces

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of software that came with it. But. They were pieces of crap for anything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the chat room is telling me, well, that’s not really a thing anymore, but But it’s still an illustrative

⏹️ ▶️ Casey example of, well, it makes everything harder when you’re not running

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the platform that they’re not running on the CPU that most of the platform is running on. Now, granted,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just like you said, John, over time, that would change. But it’s it’s weird from a consumer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point of view, like we’ve been lamenting, maybe not the three of us as much, but we as a community have been lamenting all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the different skews that are that Apple is that has now between iPads and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey certainly the watch and iPhones and Macs. And this would just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey further complicate things. I don’t know. It’s I agree with you for sure, John, that it seems

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really aggressive to get rid of Intel, even on the

⏹️ ▶️ John low end, even on like the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even on the low end. It seems aggressive, but I would believe it because Apple is aggressive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hear they’re coming out with a computer that only is one port. These

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco very. Yeah, don’t know. Nope. Warning.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Just to

⏹️ ▶️ John acknowledge that the chat room is talking about that. The ARM-based version of Windows has gone around

⏹️ ▶️ John in circles a few times. Oh, it’s dead. It’s just going away. It’s just sleeping. You know, it is an

⏹️ ▶️ John X version of Windows. Anyway, that always struck me as a trial balloon. We can make, you know, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s when they were doing the original Surface, right? And they were going to have one that was Intel-powered. But the best chips Intel could give them still required

⏹️ ▶️ John vents to be on the side of their tablet. And that was kind of like, can we make one that’s iPad like

⏹️ ▶️ John but still using you know like can can we do it we want to make an iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John and Intel doesn’t have a chip for us can we still put Windows on it because their whole thing was like Windows 8 it’s the same everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John blah blah well we can make an arm version of Windows how about that and if it sold like gangbusters they would be

⏹️ ▶️ John like full steam ahead on it but Surface in general didn’t sell like gangbusters and the arm version even less so

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s just like Casey said people bought them and either I can imagine people buying one saying wow this

⏹️ ▶️ John runs Windows I’ll be able to run everything and be and being mistaken, despite the fact that I’m sure the nice Microsoft salespeople tried to

⏹️ ▶️ John emphasize to them that you will not be able to run x86 software on your ARM-based surface. And

⏹️ ▶️ John then it required Microsoft to do the thing that has not been really good at doing lately, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John make all the people who make its third-party applications also compile an ARM version, make sure your app works on ARM, like

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is the king of hurting its developer community through platform transitions,

⏹️ ▶️ John whether it be from one CPU to the next, from desktop to phone or from PowerPC to Intel.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has done that more times and more successfully than any other technology company. And Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John has not done a great job of hurting its developer community from one API set to the other,

⏹️ ▶️ John from one CPU architecture to the other. Hell, they had a really hard time getting them onto the Windows NT code base off

⏹️ ▶️ John of the Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows 98 DOS-based code base. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it could just be different strengths in the company. I totally leave Apple could pull off an arm Mac transition,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I’m always looking like aside from the obvious upside that we talk about all the time, Apple wants to own and control

⏹️ ▶️ John every important technology and its products like that is there. That’s the reason we’re talking about this at all. It totally fits with

⏹️ ▶️ John everything they want to do. But then you say, what are you going to do about the Mac Pro? What are you going to do about the MacBook Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you going to become a CPU design powerhouse? And you say, we already are a CPU design powerhouse. Look

⏹️ ▶️ John at the eight. We’re amazing. Yes. All right. it but

⏹️ ▶️ John do you do it all one big bang do you say and all the Macs are armed now we’ve got a 12 core

⏹️ ▶️ John arm for our Mac Pros all the way down to the tiniest little arm in our Apple watch and

⏹️ ▶️ John we designed them all because now we’re the new Intel and I guess we get Samsung and DSMC

⏹️ ▶️ John to fab them for us a process node that may be a little bit behind Intel I don’t know it worries

⏹️ ▶️ John me the whole thing worries me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well and also if we look at like did you see there was a there was a benchmark on Geekbench

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it has been since taken down but I saw a screenshot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it earlier this is a benchmark of the new MacBook the new slow MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it you know it’s roughly equivalent to the performance of like 2010

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Airs like it’s you know in that ballpark and I have reason to believe it from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from a few details about the screenshot it looks legitimate I think this is I think this is a real

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deal. So we now can see kind of what the CPU performance would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be like, you know, I mean what the CPU performance is as Intel tries to go all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way down to ARM level chips. And this is not an Atom chip, this is an actual, you know, Core

⏹️ ▶️ Marco series chip, but it’s pretty close. And if you think about like, you know, compare this to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the speed of the A8X chip in the iPad Air 2, which is currently the,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe, currently like the best, the best ARM chip that’s kind of in that ballpark

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like, you know, wattage and everything like that, right? It’s fairly close, you know, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the ballpark. It’s very similar to what we’re seeing in the ARM chips, you know, in the same power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco envelope roughly. So I think if you look at this, you can, you can kind of see, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an ARM version of this laptop really wouldn’t be that different performance or battery wise. Like I think it would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly in the same ballpark on both of those criteria. So then the question Why go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through the transition at all? Like if Intel can, with enough pressure and enough technology,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if Intel can kind of reach down to the power levels of ARM chips to make a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco low-level chip that still performs okay, even though it’s not great, and if ARM can reach

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up and try to make a chip that performs as well as Intel but still keeps that envelope and they’re both kind of reaching the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco same general range by doing that, then why should Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco transition a product line that is so well established on Intel chips and has all these massive transition costs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they were to choose to do it, why make the jump? It seems like there’s not enough game to be had there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Simon Witte tweeted at us earlier on April 1st, you may have been in the air, he says the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John Air 2, he just, there’s not enough room in the tweet to expand this out, but he says 27.3 watt hours.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that just the battery capacity? I don’t know. Anyway, 1800 4500 geekbench,

⏹️ ▶️ John those two numbers separated by a slash, and it’s at 20 nanometers and the new MacBook is 39.7 watt

⏹️ ▶️ John hours. Again, I assume that’s the battery 1900 4000 geekbench. So it’s comparable geekbench

⏹️ ▶️ John score and it’s 14 nanometers. So like you’re saying they’re like their ballpark,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, close to each other, the iPad air two and the new MacBook. But the bottom line of his tweet is core m is $200 more.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t you know, maybe that’s retail price or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John What can you do? What can Apple do if they fab their own chips, save money, sell

⏹️ ▶️ John their computers for less money, I guess. You know, I mean, I still think it’s about owning control and

⏹️ ▶️ John not about, you know, we don’t want to give a portion of our profits to Intel. But as

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve said on many past programs, I really wish Apple and Intel, those two crazy kids to just work this

⏹️ ▶️ John out. You know, I want, I want the best, I want my Macs and

⏹️ ▶️ John everything to be fab with the best process technology human beings can make and usually that’s Intel has

⏹️ ▶️ John that and the best CPU designs and like just I don’t understand why we have to fight. Why

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t I have both like anyway?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, right now we have competition. That’s great. I mean right now you have like you know, I’m sure we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all heard that Apple probably has had a an arm Mac like in the labs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for testing kind of as a contingency plan for years. I mean that’s not new right? So, you know, anyone would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco agree to that, who knows anything about this stuff. So, you know, Apple knows they can make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an ARM MacBook whenever they want to. Intel knows that Apple can make an ARM MacBook whenever they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to. And so I think that keeps, you know, that healthy competition there. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Intel has a bit of a fire lit under them in the last couple years to try to get these power needs down to compete with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ARM because they have no meaningful mobile presence. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really need a mobile presence if if they want to see any more growth ever again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they certainly can’t lose the business they already have in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco PCs and servers. So they are working really hard, and you’re right, they do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the best process manufacturing technology in the world most of the time. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that competition is great, and I think we will see better results from Intel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as long as they are separate, as this battle has not been settled yet. As long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as there’s a threat that Intel might lose their PC business

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or any part of it to ARM, Intel’s going to keep working really hard. And so is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ARM, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John great. The semiconductor community site that this rumor thing is on,

⏹️ ▶️ John part of what they talk about in this article is speculating about the idea that for future chips,

⏹️ ▶️ John assuming this little table is correct, for future chips, that Apple is spreading the manufacturing around,

⏹️ ▶️ John not for technical reasons, but just sort of the same reason that like the music Makers

⏹️ ▶️ John went to Amazon and tried to spread their business around from Apple just because they don’t want to give any one fab

⏹️ ▶️ John More more power than than the other so like the idea is that Apple Apple, you know makes

⏹️ ▶️ John their own chip designs They own the intellectual property for the chip designs and they want to farm out fabbing of those

⏹️ ▶️ John chips To the best company the same way they do like who wants to build who wants to assemble our computers

⏹️ ▶️ John Who wants to make our glass who wants to you know, like that’s the relationship Apple is comfortable with

⏹️ ▶️ John we own the intellectual property We have a competition amongst all these other lower margin businesses to

⏹️ ▶️ John kill each other for our business Who wants to manufacture the watch? Well, go ahead, you know fight fight with each

⏹️ ▶️ John other and we will pick the winner Like who wants to manufacture our car like you don’t mean who wants to fab our

⏹️ ▶️ John chips? and even if one company clearly has the best deal and the best technology for a particular generation

⏹️ ▶️ John the speculation in this semiconductor, semi website is that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is saying if we were you know if we wanted the best for the best price we would give all of our business to whoever

⏹️ ▶️ John Samsung TSMC or whatever but long term wise it’s better for us to kind of spread it around

⏹️ ▶️ John so maybe give 75% to Samsung and 25% to go global foundry just because we don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John to put all our eggs in one basket and Intel as much as

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel is in this fight or whatever like that’s the relationship I feel like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John wants is we just want Intel to be just another fab, just like all these other

⏹️ ▶️ John people are. And then we will have you all fight amongst yourselves. And they would love to have Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John like fabbing some of their chips, like we’ll give Intel 50% and TSMC 25% and like,

⏹️ ▶️ John but Intel’s just not in it at all, maybe because Intel wants all their business or none of their business or

⏹️ ▶️ John demands that Apple use x86 in its phones. I’m sure Intel is showing Apple roadmaps that

⏹️ ▶️ John show what amazing chips they’re going to have that could be in an iPhone and the iPhone seven or

⏹️ ▶️ John eight like that’s how Intel got Apple’s business to begin with. They showed them the core lineup and they said, I know we have stupid pending

⏹️ ▶️ John for now and they suck but like net burst is dead. Here’s what we’re going to make for you in the future and no one can compete with it. And

⏹️ ▶️ John until it was 100% right, they got Apple’s business and they did have by far the fastest, most power efficient

⏹️ ▶️ John ships during that first generation when they were, you know, coming out and Apple’s laptop. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure those meetings are still taking place. But in the meantime, Apple is shipping a hell of a lot of arm devices manufactured

⏹️ ▶️ John by nameless faceless, sometimes very big competitors that we don’t know or hear about. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s just the way Apple likes it.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, you made an interesting observation, or at least I think it was John, maybe it was Marco, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know. It’s probably John.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That maybe other people have also realized, but the first place I saw it was here in the show notes. And you had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pointed out that the Apple TV is actually cheaper than the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey VGA adapter for the MacBook that only has one port.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m not the first person to make that analogy. But when they, because in the same keynote,

⏹️ ▶️ John they announced the price drop of the Apple TV from $99 to $69. And they also announced

⏹️ ▶️ John the availability or they announced the product and did they announce the availability of the adapter? Maybe.

⏹️ ▶️ John Shortly after the the announcement, we all went to the website and looked at the adapters for the one port MacBook.

⏹️ ▶️ John And one of those adapters is $79.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, they should have called it the MacBook one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what a missed opportunity.

⏹️ ▶️ John There you go. It’s like the Xbox one, they’ll start over. Exactly. They should have named it like the one one. You know that

⏹️ ▶️ John one? What the car, the supercar, the hypercar? sorry, the one one. I’ve lost track of what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re saying. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John no words,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John they’re not making any sense anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John I believe is it is the chat room will tell me is it like Oh, any and then the number one or the

⏹️ ▶️ John reverse? You haven’t heard of this either. Casey? No, because it wasn’t on top gear and you got all your

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey car. Oh, don’t even bring it up. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can’t handle another week of feedback about

⏹️ ▶️ John that. Anyway, the one one is by the car manufacturer whose name I’m not going to attempt to

⏹️ ▶️ John pronounce, but you know it as the really long one on the top Top Gear board. What’s the name of that company with the K? Konigsegg.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, OK, there you go. That one. They’re making a car called the One One, spelled in

⏹️ ▶️ John some weird way. And I think it’s because it’s one horsepower per pound or something. Anyway, it’s insane.

⏹️ ▶️ John Go Google the One One and see what the crazy people are making for cars. You should.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apparently, it’s O-N-E colon numeral one. That’s not confusing at all. It is a great. You have

⏹️ ▶️ John to look at it. It’s just it’s crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John the Ferrari LaFerrari. It is way more crazy than that. will probably break after being driven 100

⏹️ ▶️ John miles but you know like anyway it’s yeah you just still get the LaFerrari but this this car is crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John one horsepower per kilogram sorry they’re in European it’s not one horsepower per pound all right

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway the fact that the new Apple TV is cheaper than the

⏹️ ▶️ John adapter I don’t know what it highlights does it highlight the fact that that adapter is too expensive

⏹️ ▶️ John does it highlight the fact that that adapter also contains silicon chips we know that you know like

⏹️ ▶️ John do are the silicon chips that are in that adapter actually more expensive than the ancient single core

⏹️ ▶️ John a5 that’s in the Apple TV I don’t know but

⏹️ ▶️ John what like the price drop itself like you know dropping the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV from $99 $69 all points towards and the fact that they announce the HBO deal we’ll talk to

⏹️ ▶️ John you we talk about in a second all points towards the idea that this current Apple TV is

⏹️ ▶️ John finally, blessedly going to not be the best Apple TV you can buy, whether it

⏹️ ▶️ John goes away or continues on in its $69 slot as many people think it will.

⏹️ ▶️ John Either way, a new Apple TV is coming. It is long overdue. And when the new Apple TV comes

⏹️ ▶️ John by dropping this one, it leaves room for the new Apple TV to come in at 99 to have an actual decent CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John and to not give me obscure errors when I try to watch television programs.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And if I’m really getting

⏹️ ▶️ John greedy here, and I know everyone who has a Roku or some other box that they love is going to tell me this is not a problem

⏹️ ▶️ John there, but all the TV connected thingies that I have, anything that streams

⏹️ ▶️ John video, whether it’s streaming from my Synology, streaming from my Mac, streaming onto my

⏹️ ▶️ John PlayStation 3, PlayStation 4, from my TiVo, from my Apple TV, what else do I have connected?

⏹️ ▶️ John All these different devices, from my TV itself, streaming from Netflix, all these things,

⏹️ ▶️ John This one elusive piece of technology seems not to exist, which is the ability

⏹️ ▶️ John to scrub around in a television program in anything resembling a reliable, meaningful

⏹️ ▶️ John way. It is just like fast forward, rewind to be out. Like it just

⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes fast forwarding a rewind scan totally screws the stream and you have to start from the beginning. Sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John it kind of moves a little bit and stutter. Sometimes a perfectly good stream will stop and just like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know what the problem is with this. Like I do it on web pages all the time. I move the little scrubber in YouTube and it actually works

⏹️ ▶️ John and yet for everything connected to my television if I ever want to Fast forward or rewind scan

⏹️ ▶️ John as in not jump to the beginning not jump to the end But move in either direction at a speed

⏹️ ▶️ John faster than 1x playback These applications these devices throw up their hands

⏹️ ▶️ John and say you’re crazy. That’s not gonna happen I don’t know why you’re even bothering now You’re up I will punish you

⏹️ ▶️ John with at least a three minute delay before any picture moves again And you won’t know where you are in the stream

⏹️ ▶️ John and you won’t be able to get back to where you are. And sometimes I’m you know, I’m starting over entirely. I’m going to lose your place

⏹️ ▶️ John and you have to start over from the beginning. And by the way, you can’t get back to where you left off. Because if you try to fast forward scan, that won’t work

⏹️ ▶️ John either stream error. It drives me nuts.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I wonder

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if if any part of it is related to the hardware decoding chips they use for the video codecs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know what it’s related to. I don’t know. I mean, it’s probably not the problem. It’s probably just because they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are sloppy and cheaply made and their software is sloppy and cheaply made. I mean, this is like I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really not that into the idea of a new Apple TV right now. Like, I mean, it’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope they make one and I hope it does well and everything, but like, I’m not really excited about the idea of a new Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco TV hardware device because the problems I have with the existing Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco TV don’t seem hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John related. Well, that’s the thing. That’s what people are saying in the chat room as well. It’s like when something like this happens, like the

⏹️ ▶️ John puck or anything you connect your TV, you’re like, what’s the problem? Is the problem that I’m not getting data from the streaming

⏹️ ▶️ John service? Is the problem that the software is crappy? Is the problem that the hardware is crappy? Is it some combination?

⏹️ ▶️ John Sometimes it’s one problem, sometimes it’s the other. Is the problem that my ISP is throttling connection to this thing and if I change

⏹️ ▶️ John my DNS, I’ll get a better stream? Is the problem that the authentication servers for iTunes aren’t working and really

⏹️ ▶️ John you would stream fine if only the authentication servers weren’t constantly installing when it’s trying to reauthenticate while I’m watching?

⏹️ ▶️ John There are so many moving parts And there is so little that you can debug with these closed systems that you’re just like, look,

⏹️ ▶️ John it either has to work all the time 100%, or I just

⏹️ ▶️ John throw up my hands and I say, I don’t know. You go into Merlin man mode, you’re like, well, I guess I’m rebooting everything I own. I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m unplugging my Apple TV from the power, because it’s the only way I can get the thing to reboot. Because even the secret command

⏹️ ▶️ John handshake that you hold down on the remote isn’t working, because the thing’s frozen hard. It is so frustrating

⏹️ ▶️ John not to know where the problem is. And Marco, your diagnosis is saying you think it’s not a hardware problem. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John there are problems at every level. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hardware,

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s old, and the software, because it’s so clearly in kind of like maintenance mode, I just hope

⏹️ ▶️ John that all the good people are working on the new version, and the new version won’t have these problems. But even if they

⏹️ ▶️ John come out with a new hardware, a new software that’s better, I also believe that my connection, my streaming connection is

⏹️ ▶️ John crappy, because I’ve heard that Apple uses a different connection for streaming its Netflix than the other Netflix clients. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is mostly borne out by experimentation. When I can’t get a stream on Apple TV Netflix client, I

⏹️ ▶️ John use my TiVo Netflix client and it can, or I go to Netflix in a web browser on one of my Macs

⏹️ ▶️ John and it works. It really, just the whole

⏹️ ▶️ John interconnected mess of things that have to work correctly and in harmony for

⏹️ ▶️ John me to watch a television program streaming over the internet, it seems like there’s always at least one out of the

⏹️ ▶️ John three layers that’s screwing up, and usually all three of them are screwing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco up in some way, and it’s very frustrating.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The biggest frustration for me with these things, So, I don’t know, maybe a month or two ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two months ago, whatever, I bought both a Roku TV, whatever the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco newest Roku is, and an Amazon Fire TV, like the big powerful one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because we have two TVs in the house, and they both have Apple TVs, and the Apple TVs are getting so flaky,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m like, let me just try something else to see what everyone’s talking about. And wanted to check

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out Amazon Video Service anyway. So, they’re both just really mediocre. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re fine. If I had to pick one that is less crappy, I guess

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’d pick the Amazon one. But what’s really frustrating is that the Apple TV is still the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best one. That

⏹️ ▶️ John depresses me.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I liked

⏹️ ▶️ John having the fantasy that the Roku that everyone loves would be better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s the problem! I had that fantasy too, and now that I’ve been using them, like, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple TV is still the best one. Which a few people on Twitter told me in advance, so I…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was afraid that they would be right, and unfortunately they are. I mean, just by general, like, just usability,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the basic interface. I mean, these other players have had years to rip off the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good stuff from Apple, and they just haven’t. And, like, I don’t know, I don’t know what it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe they just don’t have the kind of sensibilities to develop simple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interfaces. I don’t know. Maybe they think the way to compete with Apple is by throwing on a whole bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, but that is the road like the Roku’s like up is like it’s the most flexible it can run plex like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s gonna Let you do everything right? That’s that’s what it’s trying to do. But all of these boxes

⏹️ ▶️ John the problem is like for all the features and all the UI or whatever like

⏹️ ▶️ John If I could put some big giant sign like the I big old IBM think pads or the big

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco thing You know

⏹️ ▶️ John framed poster after that or whatever But I would put it all these people’s things as would be much longer and I’d have to come up with a snappy

⏹️ ▶️ John phrasing for it, but the bottom is When I want to watch a program, I want to press a series of buttons and have

⏹️ ▶️ John video play Pretty much immediately and that has to work and that has to work

⏹️ ▶️ John every time Maybe it’s because I’m old because I come from a place where a television if

⏹️ ▶️ John your television wasn’t broken Then you turned it on you could see moving pictures

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Every time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well the funny the funny thing is like what you want out of seeking VCRs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco offered that perfect

⏹️ ▶️ John right and then but you know exactly like it wasn’t great But you could do it on a VCR you can do it on

⏹️ ▶️ John DVDs It was like wow I can skip without scrubbing through you know

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there wasn’t a little static you lines on DVDs when you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John fast-forwarded

⏹️ ▶️ John pause you go like right We seem to have been making progress and now streaming when it works right. It’s like. This is what I want.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s magic I have access to a million shows anytime. I want them. I can go to any part of like it’s it’s amazing

⏹️ ▶️ John right They’re organized by season whole seasons They’re released at once like all the magic But all the magic crumbles into dust as soon

⏹️ ▶️ John as I sit down in front of television press a series of buttons on my remote And moving pictures do not start happening

⏹️ ▶️ John And I either get an error message or something else. And it’s like, and it doesn’t happen to happen like 90%

⏹️ ▶️ John of the time it works, right. But that 10% just destroys the illusion that that, you know, I’m living

⏹️ ▶️ John in a future where things work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So it’s funny that, um, that Marco had brought up the Roku and the fire TV,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and compare them to the Apple TV, because I maybe a month ago got a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fire TV stick, which is the less powerful version of what Marco got. Marco got

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is physically as far as I know is about the same size as an Apple TV. Is that fair

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like an Apple TV that’s been rolled over by by steamroller slightly. So it’s like just same volume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco roughly, but just flatter and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey wider.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the fire TV stick is more like a chrome cast in that it’s just a little HDMI dongle

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a little power brick to power it. And I got it on Dan Morin’s recommendation because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he had said he had had pretty good luck with Fire TV and I don’t believe he had said he had ever tried the stick but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey roughly equivalent unless you have a really, really nice home theater setup, which I do not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I got this Fire TV stick, I believe it’s $40 on Amazon and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love it. And the reason I love it mostly is because I can use Plex

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with it natively. I basically the only things I tend to do with my Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are airplane mirroring, typically video but not always,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or Netflix. The Fire TV stick doesn’t natively support

⏹️ ▶️ Casey airplane mirroring, of course. There are apps that you can download and pay for to get airplane mirroring.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have bought a couple and they’re not very good, which is not surprising, but they’re enough

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a pinch. But it has Netflix and it has Plex,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that is easily 90% of what I want out of a box

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or dongle connected to my TV. And again, what makes the fire TV stick so wonderful for me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that the Plex support is fantastic rather than airplane from my iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or my iPhone. Or yes, I’m aware of that. God, awful hack you can do with the trailers app on the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey TV. I’m not going to do that. So it’s, I love it because it works great with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Plex. You can seek usually with Plex. Um, it works pretty darn well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with, um, Netflix. So I really like it. Now, that being said, the user interface

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is crappy. I Marco is exactly right that the user interface it’s, it’s different, but.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And too much Android leaks out for my taste. Like, not that I have anything intrinsically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey against Android, but fiddly bits that I shouldn’t have to worry about. I, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess I don’t have to worry about them, but they’re still there. Like, do you want to allow side loading? Like that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why is that even an option? No, I don’t want that. And the way you go and get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like apps is a little weird. It’s just like a generic search, which maybe is better, but I, it’s weird

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me that when I search for Plex, I could be ending up in apps or I could be ending up on audio or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the case may be. So there are definitely odd bits to the user interface, but by in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey large, I like it. And the other thing I really like about it that just occurred to me is that the remote is either

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Bluetooth or RF or something so that you do not need to point the remote at the Apple TV, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really awesome because our Apple TV is kind of tucked away a little bit and not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey extraordinarily easy to point a remote at. So for all of those reasons, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really love my Fire TV stick and I definitely recommend it if you have similar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey needs from your device that I do. Now Marco, I think you have very different needs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from your device. And as far as I recall, you get a lot of your media through iTunes. Is that right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not as much anymore. The constant DRM errors on authentication

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trying to play my media that I’ve bought from iTunes is really convincing me to try to stop doing that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I actually, when I got these boxes, I did start using Plex. I installed myself Plex for the very first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time. Using Plex for me feels a lot like building a gaming PC in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense that I’m getting a lot of functionality, more than I actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really need, but also coming at a cost of maintenance and fiddliness

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I’m sure I just have settings wrong. But it’s just so freaking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fiddly. Plex?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. There’s nothing the only fiddly thing about Plex is that you have to use their naming convention,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is not my favorite, but not so egregious that I can’t bend

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to it. Other than that, everything just works magically. I can watch my media

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s stored on my Synology anywhere in the world, as long as I have an internet connection, it will automatically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey transcode on the fly to whatever my speed is as it sees fit. And it will grab

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all the metadata it needs as long as I name things appropriately. Like I, I could not disagree

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more. I’ve had nothing but wonderful experiences with Plex.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve tried to use Plex, but like my problem has always been I don’t have anything attached to my television that can run it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And once the PS4 version of Plex came out, I’m like now finally, well, now this is when my PS4 was still attached

⏹️ ▶️ John to my television. But anyway, you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know,

⏹️ ▶️ John I figured, well, the PS4 version of Plex came out, I should try it. And I did. And it’s very bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the setup process was super painful and there’s no way a human could have figured out the crap that I had to go through to try

⏹️ ▶️ John to get this thing to work in terms of opening ports on my modem and getting reverse lookups. It was just like insanity,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But what I’m what I’m looking for out of Yes, that’s just because of the PS4. I’ve used Plex on my Mac before

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s way nicer like the Mac version of Flex. If I could get the Mac version of Flex on my TV, say by having a Mac mini or something,

⏹️ ▶️ John it would make a big difference. Right. But anyway, what I’m looking for out of Plex and

⏹️ ▶️ John why probably no one will ever have it is I think what you’re talking about, Casey, the dream thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of the the software connected box equivalent of the omnivorous box that I was dreaming about way

⏹️ ▶️ John back when, like that someone will make a box that takes that takes video input from everywhere and unifies it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have to care where it comes from. And it would do everything like no one ever made that and no one ever probably will.

⏹️ ▶️ John The software equivalent of that is like Plex where it’s like give me your video.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you have random BitTorrent things that you illegally downloaded? Do you have videos that you ripped? Do you have videos of

⏹️ ▶️ John your kid? Do you have Blu-ray extractions that you made with MKV, make MKV

⏹️ ▶️ John from you know Blu-rays that you own? I don’t care where this video came from, you just

⏹️ ▶️ John throw it all into the pit and I don’t care what you name them, I don’t care what’s in them, I have this crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John you know crowd-sourced internet powered database, well, I will figure out what the heck

⏹️ ▶️ John these files are. I’ll look at the the, you know, the fingerprints of the data,

⏹️ ▶️ John organize it into seasons, give you cover up, give you descriptions of every episode, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John Plex does a hell of a lot of that Plex, you can more or less throw a bunch of stuff that like the

⏹️ ▶️ John metadata lookup, the cover art, the being able to play a million different crazy formats, transcoding

⏹️ ▶️ John on the fly, doing all that stuff, Plex and various other utilities and

⏹️ ▶️ John other sort of software apps do a lot of that but they’re a little bit flaky

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t really play every file that you download sometimes the device you’re running it on can’t transcode fast enough

⏹️ ▶️ John to handle this thing sometimes you lose the 5.1 track and it mixes it down to something else you

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t see the special features from your DVDs or your blu-rays like the limitation just starts stacking up and stacking

⏹️ ▶️ John up and because no one like none of the legit people are motivated to be able

⏹️ ▶️ John to take your illegal downloads or your rips of DVDs and figure out what they are and sort them into sessions.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple’s never going to do that. Like Roku is probably not even going to do that other than running the Plex app. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so this is definitely an in-betweeny stage where we are in the transition

⏹️ ▶️ John from broadcast television to streaming television, and there’s lots of sort of do it yourself or solutions that work

⏹️ ▶️ John to varying degrees, but I feel like to come over the hump, the

⏹️ ▶️ John non broadcast television, uh, experience needs to be like the old

⏹️ ▶️ John one in one specific way when you press play video has to play and I don’t care where the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco problem is in it as anyone else

⏹️ ▶️ John is it with the networks is it an ISP fighting with with you know the Netflix or something

⏹️ ▶️ John is it the hardware is it my my router is it jumbo packets like I don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want video to play and I have to say of all you know all this complaining about streaming devices

⏹️ ▶️ John the one television connected device and I have in my house that is closest to the ideal of press play

⏹️ ▶️ John and video plays is the TiVo. Why? Because it’s piggybacking on the old cruddy

⏹️ ▶️ John coaxial cable that comes into my house that delivers television, which has, you know, developed over the years

⏹️ ▶️ John to be different than what it was. But yeah, you know, I have a cable

⏹️ ▶️ John card, it goes into the cable, the coaxial cable goes into the back of my TV, I pay for all the pay channels,

⏹️ ▶️ John I pay for all the fancy stuff, right. And then And then there’s a hard drive and an incredibly weak CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John and a bunch of video decoding chips that record six of those channels at once onto a hard drive.

⏹️ ▶️ John And when I press play, it plays the video off that hard drive. And when I fast forward and rewind, it fast forwards and rewinds.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it works every time and it doesn’t crash and I don’t get authentication errors. And that’s, you know, it does have

⏹️ ▶️ John a Netflix client on it, which is flaky, and it does have all these other streaming clients on it, which are flaky. But for the core

⏹️ ▶️ John purpose of recording video that’s coming over my house through the coaxial cable that I pay for, it works.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so my vast preference is record Game of Thrones on my TiVo, watch

⏹️ ▶️ John it on my TiVo. Yes, I have HBO Go. Yes, I’ll have HBO Now I have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I know

⏹️ ▶️ John will work? Sit down in front of TiVo, turn it on, go down to Game of Thrones, hit play, the video will play every time it plays.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that like, that’s going to keep me loyal to TiVo. And it’s going to keep me paying my whatever the heck it is,

⏹️ ▶️ John huge bill for real live old fashioned cable service until the streaming people can get their acts

⏹️ ▶️ John together to the point where now I can start choosing things based on features or pricing or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But right now I’m choosing based on reliability.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I hear that. I mean, it sounds like we all sort of have our own unique needs. John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently boils down to just freaking work. But but yeah, I don’t know. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s sad that this hasn’t been solved, which I know. I think this is where you started, john.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it’s sad that this is still that that Marco and I both

⏹️ ▶️ Casey felt like we needed two different manufacturers boxes in order to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fix this problem. And neither of us feels completely satisfied with that

⏹️ ▶️ John fix. Yeah, all of us have multiple things. Like I have I watch things from Netflix and I choose

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple TV to be my Netflix client because it has no fan. I watch things from streaming video. I buy things from iTunes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I do all of it, right? But it’s like when I have a choice, sometimes you don’t have a choice. Like when I have a choice, Tivo

⏹️ ▶️ John is my go to but if I don’t I go down the cascade do I want to try to stream in with my Synology do I want to try

⏹️ ▶️ John to watch it on Apple TVs Netflix client do I want to try my TVs build in Netflix client sometimes I make the rounds until one of them works

⏹️ ▶️ John right sometimes my kid wants to watch a movie that I have I bought an iTunes I have an illegally

⏹️ ▶️ John downloaded file I have the blu-ray I have the DVD this is very common case there are movies where I have all

⏹️ ▶️ John those things right and it’s like how how should how should we watch that file

⏹️ ▶️ John is it important to make pictures moving on the television as fast as possible before the kid gets cranky? Or

⏹️ ▶️ John is it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco for me,

⏹️ ▶️ John is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it

⏹️ ▶️ John important because it’s a family viewing that I’m going to take out the actual Blu-ray disc and put it in because that has the highest fidelity video

⏹️ ▶️ John and sound and that’s very important to me. It’s why I own a big sack of Blu-rays, right? Because movies that I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John already owned and they’re already watched, I like to have on Blu-ray if I really care about the movie because it is the best quality.

⏹️ ▶️ John So having to be like a connoisseur of like how do I want to watch this today

⏹️ ▶️ John and having to pick based on quality and rely predicted reliability and speed and which

⏹️ ▶️ John one is just going to work, especially with illegal downloads, which thing will actually successfully play this?

⏹️ ▶️ John Let’s try it directly from the Synology MI TV. Let’s try it through the PlayStation Media Server. Let’s try it through Plex. Let’s

⏹️ ▶️ John try transcoding it manually. And it’s like, you know, sometimes you just want to watch a movie.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and the sad part is, like, I’ve hired almost nothing and it still sucks. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can do everything quote right. You can totally buy into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the ecosystems, you know, it’s the Apple ecosystem, the Amazon, whatever, you can totally buy into it, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do everything right the way most people do, and it still doesn’t work very well.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s worse because that’s a monoculture. You need biological diversity, right? That’s why,

⏹️ ▶️ John doing illegally has the advantage that there won’t be like unskippable FBI warnings at the

⏹️ ▶️ John front of it. You won’t have to fight through seven layers of menus and downloading new Java updates on

⏹️ ▶️ John your Blu-ray player just to get to the movie. Like pirating is almost always better, But then like yeah, okay. Well now I don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John the I don’t like the way This was trans coded or it was cropped wrong or I don’t like the the audio tracks that were

⏹️ ▶️ John included in this or they don’t Get the director’s commentary. There’s always trade-offs, but I would say overall

⏹️ ▶️ John Illegal gives you a better experience like again even for movies that I own the discs for sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John If I just want to watch the thing right now I will look at the either the ripped version of it or the illegally downloaded

⏹️ ▶️ John version of it Because I know I’ll get to the movie part faster

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s and that’s one of the reasons why I’ve been ripping on my blu-ray is using Don Milton scripts because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I bought this LG blu-ray ripper and I have this Mac Mini that’s doing this live stream now and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when it’s not doing live streaming tasks It’s doing Plex and blue ripping and I’m doing all that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I keep having these stupid errors with stuff I’ve actually bought on iTunes and like yeah Like when my kid wants

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to watch a Pixar movie and we try to play it and it doesn’t and I can’t get it playing after 10 minutes of fiddling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with stuff because of random Apple TV or CDN or service errors,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want to just have it locally on the LAN and have it play, which used to work great,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but now home sharing sucks. And like, it’s like everything sucks. You should

⏹️ ▶️ John never have turned off jumbo frames, Margo.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, I really, like, I don’t get, it is so frustrating. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the good thing is I think there is hope in sight. right now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there is kind of this this inconvenient hole or this inconvenient division in the market right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now because you can’t get like all the big stuff in one box basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the biggest offenders are that Apple the Apple TV is the problem basically that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that app the Apple TV is the only thing they can play iTunes stuff and the Apple TV can’t for the most part

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t duplex and it can’t play Amazon instant video. If there is a future Apple TV coming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out soon that offers an app platform, maybe that is how Apple will kind of finally,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quietly allow those things to happen on the Apple TV without having to like partner with Amazon, which they really probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn’t want to do, and without having to, you know, install Plex’s built-in app which might, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cause piracy concern pressure from their content partners or whatever. Like, if they,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, but if there’s just another Apple TV that has great hardware and an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app platform, and they permit Plex and Amazon TV to build apps for it, which they almost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly would, then that, I think, will be a really great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco box, potentially, if it actually works. And maybe by then, they will have fixed Discovery,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I assume is probably what’s causing all the home sharing issues.

⏹️ ▶️ John I still feel like the ISP issue is unresolved. battle between the content providers

⏹️ ▶️ John and the content owners, whether it be HBO or Netflix or some combination and the ISPs who just want to cut

⏹️ ▶️ John of everything and want, you know, like the whole strangling networks that they know that the Netflix content comes from and

⏹️ ▶️ John try and like the whole net neutrality thing like that need that needs to sort it out. You know, you need everything

⏹️ ▶️ John to work, even if all the hardware and software and business deals get worked out on the device

⏹️ ▶️ John connected to your TV. If the ISP is still in a spat with one or more of those people, your experience is going

⏹️ ▶️ John to suck and there’s like nothing you can do about it because you’ll do like a speed test and you’re like you’ve got 100 megabits down

⏹️ ▶️ John but you can’t watch a video at more than 480p and even then it stalls sometimes it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like why am I even paying for this service and you know that’s that I guess the the you know the

⏹️ ▶️ John HBO now deal that was part of the same keynote with the one port macbook right um it’s called

⏹️ ▶️ John the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco macbook one now john yes that’s what we’re calling it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey god all right but before we do the hbo one stuff let’s uh But let’s thank our last sponsor.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so back to the HBO deal that came up in the last Apple keynote.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this is framed as an Apple win, but really it

⏹️ ▶️ John is just the natural evolution of HBO. In the past, they were a thing you had to buy as a

⏹️ ▶️ John premium addition to your cable bill. Then they had the HBO Go application,

⏹️ ▶️ John which first you could only watch on iOS devices and then eventually they let you stream to your television. But the important point was

⏹️ ▶️ John you couldn’t do anything with that iOS app at all unless you You had a cable subscription that included

⏹️ ▶️ John HBO. And that frustrated people because they were like, Come on, HBO, this is the future.

⏹️ ▶️ John We the whole point of us watching your content on our streaming Apple, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV puck thing, or on our iPhone or on our iPad, is that we don’t want to pay for cable. In

⏹️ ▶️ John fact, we’re cable cutters, we don’t want to pay for cable at all, except for cross for internet access, which we’ll never get rid of that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, we don’t want to pay for cable television, we don’t watch ESPN, or you know, we watch

⏹️ ▶️ John it on their website or we watch things on YouTube or whatever, like divorce your service from the cable

⏹️ ▶️ John television industry. And now finally HBO is ready to do that. They’re not ready to do it themselves

⏹️ ▶️ John because apparently their technology act is not together on the whole HBO go front. So they’re outsourcing it, I believe to the

⏹️ ▶️ John MLB dot TV people, people who do a major league baseball television streaming, which by all accounts, despite

⏹️ ▶️ John the silly blackout nonsense, the actual streaming part of it works pretty well. So there are high hopes for

⏹️ ▶️ John this business. If you pay them $15 a month, you can watch HBO. You don’t need to have a cable subscription.

⏹️ ▶️ John All you need is some device that can do this. And it is exclusive to Apple for how long?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like six months or three months or?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought it was three. But I’ve also heard that it’s not really exclusive to Apple. I didn’t read up on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this because I don’t really watch HBO and I don’t have HBO. But I could swear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’d read somewhere recently that it may or may not actually be exclusive.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, but the deal is like, you know, so the new season of Game of Thrones is starting and Apple did just drop the

⏹️ ▶️ John price on its little silly puck thing. So for $69, cord cutters can buy a

⏹️ ▶️ John puck and $15 a month, they can watch Game of Thrones, they can watch it in theory,

⏹️ ▶️ John whenever they want without a cable subscription without borrowing some borrowing quote unquote, someone’s

⏹️ ▶️ John HBO go password who does subscribe to HBO, which was the past practice. And for a short period

⏹️ ▶️ John of time, which includes the time that the Game of Thrones season will be premiering. The only way to

⏹️ ▶️ John do this or according to Apple, the only way is on their particular thing, But that will expire and very soon, I’m sure HBO

⏹️ ▶️ John now will be available everywhere and it’s exactly what we all wanted out of HBO. And this is the slow crumbling

⏹️ ▶️ John of all the people who are holding out, holding the line on old media, going towards, like

⏹️ ▶️ John what Marco said, eventually a potential app platform, kind of like we have on iOS today, where there’s a series

⏹️ ▶️ John of applications that you can use to watch NBA or MLB or

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe, I don’t know if the NFL is out there, all these three letter acronyms for sport things that none of us watch. I do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do they have an NFL app? You can tell me, maybe. They do, but it only is useful if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you get NFL Sunday Ticket, which you can only get if you’re a DirecTV subscriber or live in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey UK or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. Yeah, so those deals, yeah, they’re still kind of entrenched. But trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John slowly divorce themselves, like that I shouldn’t have to pay for cable television or satellite television

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. I should just be able to a la carte buy the, it’s still, it’s not the shows

⏹️ ▶️ John you want, you’re still buying the channels you want, right? you’re buying HBO, you’re not buying Game of Thrones.

⏹️ ▶️ John People would rather just be able to get Game of Thrones without buying the season on iTunes after it’s already aired or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John or the day after it aired. Like we’re narrowing it, getting closer and closer. It used to be you couldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John get a digital version of a television show ever, and then you could get a digital version of the television show much later,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then you could get it the next day, and now you’re gonna be able to watch it at the same time as the people who subscribe to HBO. Again, in

⏹️ ▶️ John theory, because if their servers are crushed under the weight of all the people trying to do

⏹️ ▶️ John that, I know my Tivo will record it and I’ll be able to watch it in real time. That’s the great thing

⏹️ ▶️ John about HBO. No commercials. You don’t have to you can watch it in real time because you don’t have to wait for the commercials to queue up.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, I continue to watch those things on my nice, reliable TV, but they’re trying to get to the future. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like if people go out and get the sixty nine dollar puck so

⏹️ ▶️ John they can watch it and pay the subscription to HBO so they can watch Game of Thrones finally in, you know, without

⏹️ ▶️ John borrowing someone’s password and without having to subscribe to HBO and they plug in the puck and they turn it on, they’re all excited to watch

⏹️ ▶️ John it, and they got their popcorn and maybe there’s some friends over and they hit play and it doesn’t play, they’re not gonna be excited

⏹️ ▶️ John about the future of streaming TV. They’re gonna regret that $69 purchase. And when the new Apple TV comes out for $99, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna be enthused about buying that. It is so easy to sour a normal person, not a geek,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like a semi-normal person on the experience of TV connected pucks by just having it not work

⏹️ ▶️ John once and them going, you know what? I didn’t like paying for cable. I didn’t like paying extra on top of cable for HBO,

⏹️ ▶️ John But at least I can watch my show when I wanted to watch my show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have nothing to add here. I agree with you completely. I mean, I think you nailed it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Reuters TV, Squarespace, and Harry’s, and we will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over. They didn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean to begin. Because it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was accidental. John didn’t do any research, Margo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Casey wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco let him, Cause it was accidental, it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental. And you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at, And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them, It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Accidental, they didn’t mean to, Accidental, Tech

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Podcasts So Long.

⏹️ ▶️ John my stories, they call it. I want you to watch my stories. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Uh, Marco, we talked a little bit earlier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and we told you to save it for the after show about how you’re falling out of love with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Twitter, which is funny because I feel like you’re coming to a conclusion quicker than I am, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have been having. Similar feelings about is really,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is Twitter really doing anything positive for me or is it just making me angry all the time?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, like the thing that I quoted to you guys before I put it in the show notes, so maybe you looked it up by now, but did any of

⏹️ ▶️ John you recognize the quote I was referencing when Marco first talked about this? Nope. This is, this is an

⏹️ ▶️ John older quote is from 1777. I don’t know if you guys remember back that far. No, we’re not as old as you,

⏹️ ▶️ John John. Yeah. It’s from Samuel Johnson and the, the, uh, the well-known part of it is, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll read the whole thing. You find no man at all intellectual who is willing to leave London. No, sir.

⏹️ ▶️ John When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life, for there is in London all that life can afford.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that was my way of saying that it’s not specifically Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John that is a tiresome thing, and that I think at this point, Twitter offers all that life can afford,

⏹️ ▶️ John more or less. It is exposure to lots of

⏹️ ▶️ John people, which can happen anywhere on the internet, whether it be in a Usenet group, where the exact same toxic things that Marco was

⏹️ ▶️ John going to discuss, sure, uh, haven’t, you know, could happen and did happen

⏹️ ▶️ John or it could be IRC or it could be web forums or web bulletin boards or AOL

⏹️ ▶️ John chat room news group things. I don’t know if there’s ever an AOL, whatever those things are called. Like the problem

⏹️ ▶️ John is not the medium. The problem is, and in fact, twitter is probably better than most in the ways that it

⏹️ ▶️ John handles the social interactions and limiting people and having the asymmetrical follow and everything

⏹️ ▶️ John is, you know, being tired of life. And I’m not saying that that that means he’s wrong or anything. I’m saying like that we

⏹️ ▶️ John should put the blame where it lies, which is like, you know, other people suck, right? And or

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco whatever, like however

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to deal with, like how how are you current feeling like I’m going to put in video game turns like

⏹️ ▶️ John how how are your shields holding up against the current onslaught, right? Are you feeling weak?

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you feeling strong? Do you feel like it’s wearing you down and doing something negative and disengaging is the way you deal with that. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John if your shields are going down and you get bombarded from all sides, you you know, you go elsewhere. You

⏹️ ▶️ John pull your ship back, you hide behind a rock and let your ships regenerate. I don’t know, I’m mixing video game

⏹️ ▶️ John metaphors here, but like…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Will you treat it like the Halo thing, so that you can step back for a minute and you recharge your things?

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. And what I’m getting at is that it’s not so much Twitter specifically, it really could be anything.

⏹️ ▶️ John It could be blog comments, if you had comments on your blog, and one way to fix that might be to turn off comments. It could be people sending you hateful

⏹️ ▶️ John emails. Like there are many vectors through which people who have any amount of notoriety can be

⏹️ ▶️ John put upon by others and it can start to affect them for a variety of reasons. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think acknowledging that and dealing with it in a way that works best for you is healthy.

⏹️ ▶️ John My only point with the tired of life thing is that I don’t think it’s specific to

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter or any one thing and I don’t think shifting your use to like or usenet

⏹️ ▶️ John or going back to IRC or whatever like nothing is going to solve that problem. It is not a technology problem. is just

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing that you have to deal with that goes in cycles that you have to deal with no matter where it is, and you have to do whatever you

⏹️ ▶️ John need to do to make yourself be happier, essentially.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I actually agree with most of what you just said. It’s not,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the problem I have with Twitter, the problem I’m having is partly my fault.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is partly that it is, and I’ve talked about it before, like struggles

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with trying to keep my Twitter usage under control so it’s not just constantly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sucking away little bits of time throughout the day and just being this massive time suck and distraction suck,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which hurts my productivity. And when I see my report from Rescue Time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every week and it says I spent X hours in Twitter, I don’t feel good about that. So that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of the problem. And I’ve always had that problem. And I’ve tried different techniques over the years to try to minimize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, like only using it on my phone or only using it in Notification Center or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quitting it during the work day or whatever. They’ve all done

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slight help here and there, but they mostly just kind of move the problem around. They don’t really tend to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reduce the problem meaningfully. The problem there is just me, that I want to keep engaging and interacting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re not a Twitter completionist, right? I keep forgetting.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so you don’t have that problem. If you were, I would say that’s one thing you should definitely stop, because that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And another problem that I have is that I’m not keeping up because so much is going on on Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m missing what my friends are saying. And I recently, a couple of weeks ago, I unfollowed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about a third of the people I was following. Like I went through and tried to call as much as I could. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I started using Mutes here and there, but that’s a little too much work for me, so I’m not gonna do much of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the problem is that all of my friends,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the most part, are talking to each other on Twitter. And if I want to keep up with what my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco friends are doing or talking about or what’s going on in the world, I need to be reading

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. Right now, I’m already not reading most of it because I’m not a completionist. I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep up, so I’m already not reading it, but I’m missing all that. And at the same time, if I want to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talk to my friends in that context, if I want to be part of that conversation, we’re in public.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so what I need, what I’m looking for, is some separation to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In public, somebody, I forget who, somebody about a year ago I heard a talk where they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were comparing having a conversation briefly with your friends on Twitter, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like having a conversation on your front porch with somebody, and there’s tons of people walking by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the sidewalk and they yell at you, like responses, you weren’t part of this conversation, and they’re like yelling,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco butting in, like you’re a dick. What do you, get off

⏹️ ▶️ John my porch. But that’s one of the strengths of Twitter as well, because if it was only happening in private,

⏹️ ▶️ John fewer people would benefit. The reason it kind of works the way it does is that groups of people can sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John organically form who like discussing a particular topic. And like you’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ John it in public partially because you want some of the public to see it. What you don’t want is people going

⏹️ ▶️ John by your porch and yelling at you while you’re doing your thing. But you do want, hey, maybe this interested guy who you met once or twice

⏹️ ▶️ John will hear your conversation and join in kind of like at a party, right? Like, so the public nature of Twitter is both a strength

⏹️ ▶️ John and a weakness and how it plays out really depends on how many people are walking

⏹️ ▶️ John by your porch, so to speak.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and I agree that that is an important strength of Twitter. I like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that exists. I don’t like that that is the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco far and away dominant place that my friends interact with each other and that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to interact with my friends. We are always in public, and I think it should be the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco opposite. I think we should interact in public sometimes, and most of the time it would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be more pleasant if it was private. And so there’s different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways to do that. There’s chat rooms and stuff, and Slack, and stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. I think I’d rather spend more time looking into stuff like that these days, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is so exhausting. It is like… You know, like I was just at a conference and being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at a conference was great, but most groups of people on Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are not as nice as the attendees of OOL. And it’s a much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger crowd on Twitter. You know, imagine going to a conference where you have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, tens of thousands of people all around you and listening to everything you say and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being ready to butt in. And so you’re going to get a lot of good stuff out of that. You’re going to meet a lot of good people. You’re gonna get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of good ideas and good conversations out of that, but you’re also gonna get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of jerks, especially if it’s free to enter and nobody knows your name and you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to show your face. So it is exhausting after a while to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always partially or fully in public like that when you’re really just trying to have like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everyday interactions with mostly just your friends and you’re welcome, like it’s like always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being at a conference. So there is value in being at a conference sometimes, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there is also a certain threshold of sanity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you can’t be publicly performing all the time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and have that be mentally healthy. At least I can’t. And so what I’m saying is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Twitter is bad. And by the way, a lot of people rightly point out in the chat room,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much of the problem when people complain about quote Twitter is they’re complaining about the group they’re following, the group they’re paying attention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to. I’m aware that social networks are what you make of them with what you choose to follow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco However, in a network like Twitter, they are not what you make of them as in terms of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who talks to you and what you receive. That is mostly up to the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco public. I mean you can you can like you know try to avoid talking about certain topics which is stupid

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you You can do stuff like that to try to minimize what you get, but for the most part, once you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a non-trivially sized audience, you’re going to have random jerks talking to you all the time in a jerky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. And no matter how much good is interspersed throughout that, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just really exhausting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, the problem is that the cost of entry to affecting somebody

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else’s day is almost zero because you can fire off this 140 character

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or less message to darn near anyone you want.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s free and it takes almost no time. And just like you were

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying, John, that’s one of the strengths of Twitter is that it’s, you can, you can get messages across

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quickly and easily. Um, and you can have access to almost anyone on the planet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you so desire like celebrities. And I’m talking about like actual celebrities, not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us three idiots. But the problem with that is all of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey these people also have access to you. And the thing that I’ve been struggling with with regard to Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is I feel like maybe I’m just becoming more sensitive. I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’d be becoming less sensitive, but I feel like I’m seeing more and more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey negative or not constructive comments coming my way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that bother me. And granted, the easy answer is, well, don’t let it bother you,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you idiot. But it’s hard. I’m not good at just putting up that wall. So like, for example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had put up a post about Apple Pay and about how I thought it was crummy that when my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey card had expired, the card didn’t update, which I’ve since found out it is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey theoretically capable of doing if the bank handles it right. And it also didn’t tell me when I went

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to use it, to use the Apple Pay version of the credit card that it had expired. It just said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey denied. So I wrote a post about that. Well, somebody tweeted, Apple Pay messaging at Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Liss, you’re being ridiculous, keep track of your cards. Like, sorry

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I made an honest mistake.

⏹️ ▶️ John But did you also learn about the fact that your bank, if your bank had handled it correctly,

⏹️ ▶️ John that that wouldn’t have happened? Did you also learn about that on Twitter or from some stranger?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I learned about it from some friends, but I also eventually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey heard about it on Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the blessing and the curse. Like you will, I mean, it’s kind of like, you know, follow up. Anything we talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John here, we are wrong. Many people will tell us, which I like. I like the fact that, you know, that’s an advantage of having

⏹️ ▶️ John an audience. Some of the people who tell you will be mean about it. That’s the price you pay for having a bunch of people

⏹️ ▶️ John tell you, like, solve your problems for you. You know, a lot of people, like a lot of people who

⏹️ ▶️ John only see the upside would love to do that. like, yeah, you know, boy, it must be good to have a popular tech podcast because you can say,

⏹️ ▶️ John Hey, I’m having trouble getting my who’s it working with my whatever. And then a million people will

⏹️ ▶️ John tell you how to get them to work together. And like some percentage of those people will be right. And you will you will have your

⏹️ ▶️ John solve problem, right? But then some percentage of the people will be jerks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like when I had my jumbo frame issue, it would never I would never have found that problem. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I hadn’t asked on Twitter and gotten hundreds of responses of what it might be. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like two of them said jumbo frames, And that was the end of it being right. I am so lucky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have such a big audience on Twitter that I have access to that kind of information.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m so lucky that I have a big enough audience that I can launch products and write blog

⏹️ ▶️ Marco posts that get attention. Like the audience, I have built-in attention for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything I do now. That’s the problem. That’s why I would feel like a jerk just walking away from this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would feel ungrateful to all these people who have been following me. And also I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feel like I was throwing away a giant professional advantage. So I feel like I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco leave Twitter. Yeah. But that’s why I need to find a better balance.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, but that’s a skill like anything else is a skill you have to develop. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John none of us have experience with this, but can you imagine running a huge company being the CEO of a of a company with thousands of

⏹️ ▶️ John employees. Like, that is not usually a natural thing that most people are used to.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re used to just dealing with yourself when you’re a kid, and you learn to gain responsibility. But it

⏹️ ▶️ John is at these extremes of extreme ratios of you to other people. It’s a skill that

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to learn. There are things you can learn about being a manager and being a CEO or running a large

⏹️ ▶️ John company that you just have to figure out, right? And you have to research

⏹️ ▶️ John them and learn them. And some people are just not cut out for it. people will never be a good CEO or a good manager of a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of people because it’s just not how they work, right? So if suddenly you get an audience and you have to deal with notoriety

⏹️ ▶️ John and fame and a lot of input from other people, you have to either

⏹️ ▶️ John learn to deal with that or learn what your limits are. Learn that I don’t want to be the CEO of a big company because no matter

⏹️ ▶️ John how good I could possibly get at it, doing so doesn’t make me happy. How big are you comfortable? How big, you know, you see a lot with actual

⏹️ ▶️ John celebrities who get big because of some talent they have. They’re in it. They’re in a hit movie.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re great singer, they have hit song or something and very often

⏹️ ▶️ John the prerequisites to get that fame, being very talented, being a good actor, being in the right

⏹️ ▶️ John place at the right time, some combination of those things are totally unrelated to the ability to

⏹️ ▶️ John deal with the fame that is going to come with that. You know the ones that stick, the ones that stay are like yes

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re really talented and also they are able to figure out how to have a successful well-balanced

⏹️ ▶️ John life in the the face of what must be, you know, the insane onslaught of like

⏹️ ▶️ John real fame, right? Other people have the talent, get the notoriety and very clearly

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t deal with the onslaught of real fame and have tragic, terrible lives. We are lucky that in

⏹️ ▶️ John our tiny little dose of notoriety here, it’s unlikely that Marco is going to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John go on a bender and drive his Tesla off a cliff or something like, you know, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just but but I think that’s why I think our problem is more relatable because I think everybody has,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, even if it’s just like someone said something mean on your Facebook post, you know, who is like an acquaintance

⏹️ ▶️ John or someone you knew in high school, and that ruins your day. That’s pretty much the level we’re talking about here.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not like we’re getting bombarded with thousands of people hating us it but it doesn’t take much. It just takes one person

⏹️ ▶️ John making one mean comment to make to make you think like, and are you used to that? Are you used to

⏹️ ▶️ John acquaintances or even strangers perhaps telling you mean things about yourself? Maybe that’s not something that happens in your regular life, but

⏹️ ▶️ John suddenly it happens on the internet because they have access to you and everyone I think, like, this is the complaint we get when we talk about this,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, when you stop talking about your problems of like, oh, you have a lot of Twitter followers. I think everybody if you have one Twitter follow,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you have 10 people who read your face, everybody has this problem at pretty much exactly the same scale we do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because what we’re talking about here is handfuls

⏹️ ▶️ John of negative feedback from people because we’re not you know, it’s we’re not that big. And I think our handful

⏹️ ▶️ John is within an order of magnitude of your handful, and is really the same type of scope

⏹️ ▶️ John of problem. I think everybody who has any interaction in any social media or any sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John one-to-many communication medium that’s not just like face-to-face has to deal with this and

⏹️ ▶️ John has to figure out what are my limits? How do I feel about this? Am I gonna grow a thicker skin

⏹️ ▶️ John or am I going to pretend I’m growing a thicker skin when really I’m just internalizing it all and it’ll come to a breaking point and

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll like snap at my children I realize I’m snapping at them because someone said something mean to me on my

⏹️ ▶️ John Facebook post two days ago and I’m still thinking about it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That I couldn’t agree more. That’s exactly how I feel, that I’m trying to just fabricate a thicker skin,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t think I’ve actually built a thicker skin yet. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hard. It’s a hard thing to deal with. It’s weird. And I think an ecstasy said a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey couple of things in the chat that I thought were great. Some people are a pleasure to interact with, others just suck your energy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think that’s a really good way of putting it, that I see this comment like, oh, don’t be ridiculous, keep track of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your – or you’re being ridiculous, keep track of your cards. And that just kind of like sucks the air out of my day a little bit.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Should it? No. I should be big enough to realize this is some stranger that I’m never going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to interact with and that shouldn’t bother me. But it does. And the thing I’m struggling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with, again, coming back to an ecstasy is – in his or her case, I will also say the older

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I get, the less tolerant of energy-sucking people I become. a lot more crap at 18 than I do at 48.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I feel like even in the last couple of years as I’ve gained some fame, and I can’t say notoriety

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I was corrected once that it’s not notoriety, it’s fame for us because we didn’t do bad things. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, as I get more fame, I’m finding that I have less and less

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tolerance and time for that kind of energy suck. And I’ve noticed kind of building on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what Marco had said that I’m getting much more aggressive with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the block button and those sorts of things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than I ever have been in the past. And granted, I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey freshly 33, and so it’s not that I’m getting too old age, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even as I’m getting older at this age, I’m finding that I’m less and less tolerant

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of it. And where we started this conversation is where I’m coming back to now, which is,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is Is it really worth me getting upset over these random strangers on the internet? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel like I’m getting more and more upset over time. And in fact,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the end of last year in December, and this is a little bit of a corollary for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey half or so of December, I kept track every single day of what Twitter was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pissed off about because I felt like every day there was some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unbelievable travesty that Twitter was all fired up about every single

⏹️ ▶️ Casey day. Now that oftentimes that didn’t relate to me at all, but that much negativity, man, oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey goodness, eventually it just wears on you. And the reason I kept track of this because I intended

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to post a blog post about it, as it turns out, right around the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time that the right, I guess, was midway through the month, somebody, I want to say Maybe it was time,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but, um, somebody put up a post that had basically done that for an entire year.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so at that point I figured, well, my post wasn’t really worth it, but.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s just, it’s stunning to me how much negativity I’ve seen on Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And like Marco, I’m trying to evaluate where does that fit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in my life? Because I don’t want to eliminate it entirely, but I think I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey giving it much more time and too many thought cycles. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to back it off a bit, but I’m not sure the right way to do it. And like Marco, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a freaking addict, which is not, I don’t say that with pride. I wish I was less so,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it is, it is unbelievably thrilling to get responses from people that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey respect or even strangers that have good information. Like the, the big frames, fat frames,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever you call it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Um, That is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John the title, man. Eight

⏹️ ▶️ John frames, comma, fat frames.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fine. See, now I’m totally derailed myself. But one way or another,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s good things that come from Twitter, but there’s also so much bad, and I can’t figure out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the bad outweighing the good these days, for me

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway. What Marco is doing, he’s doing all the logical things that you would think to do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Trim your follow lists, mute people, try to cut down on when you do it, don’t be a completionist.

⏹️ ▶️ John going through he’s going down the punch list of things you can do to manage this on somewhere on the punch

⏹️ ▶️ John list for certain people maybe think your way out of it most people that doesn’t work like

⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit Casey sounds like you’re trying to think your way out of it like should I be upset intellectually can I

⏹️ ▶️ John can I rationally think about that I shouldn’t be bothered by what strangers that like I don’t know if

⏹️ ▶️ John you can have that conversation with yourself and have it have effect I my experience it is very rare that

⏹️ ▶️ John people can use reason to change their emotions. They

⏹️ ▶️ John feel from input from other people, but some people can, so it’s worth at least giving that a try.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you know, and curating the follow list, I think is probably the first thing you should do because you said like, you know, what

⏹️ ▶️ John is Twitter upset about today? As Marco pointed out, Twitter is who you follow. Like what is Twitter upset about?

⏹️ ▶️ John You have no idea what Twitter is upset about. Twitter as an aggregate is probably talking about Justin Bieber. That is not in your

⏹️ ▶️ John head, right? You know, I mean, your Twitter is upset about some Apple thing that nobody knows about except, You know, so

⏹️ ▶️ John changing your follow list and it can be painful because even for all the asymmetry in Twitter can be painful to

⏹️ ▶️ John unfollow people who you know, you may agree with them. You and you may be this part of the reason you would

⏹️ ▶️ John unfollow them like they’re outraged about issue X, you 100% agree with them about issue X and you are also

⏹️ ▶️ John outraged and that outrage is a negative feeling. So you’re unfollowing them not because they’re posting things you disagree

⏹️ ▶️ John with, but because they’re posting because you agree with and you’re like, now I too am outraged. You have transferred your outrage

⏹️ ▶️ John to me because we agree on everything. I’m going to unfollow you. You’re not unfollowing people because their

⏹️ ▶️ John opinions are the opposite of yours. You’re unfollowing people who you agree with, but who seem to be angry all the time and that’s rubbing

⏹️ ▶️ John off on you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco To me, I feel like there’s a big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco difference with Twitter and a lot of it comes from the blog world too,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is that with Twitter, it is who you follow. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what you see in your timeline, but there’s still the big problem with all of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco replies from jerks and everything. And a few weeks ago I mentioned how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I feel more comfortable saying things in podcasts that I do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my blog, things that might be controversial or that might get people to call me a jerk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whatever. And the reason why is because in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco blogs and on Twitter it’s really, really easy to get drive-by rash reactions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from people. And so when, and this is, you know, that anger that you see, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you see like bubbling up on Twitter, that’s directed at something, that’s a mood. It’s this drive-by mood where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco someone sees a few words or a headline that they disagree

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with and they fit it into their narrative with their confirmation bias of whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they think those people are like or whatever and and they just lash out and yell immediately.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They don’t look at context, they don’t know the people they’re talking to, it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this quick, you know, harsh reaction. With podcasts, you don’t really get a lot of that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because podcasts are so undiscoverable fundamentally by the format mostly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I know there’s ways we can improve it, but ultimately the format is just pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco undiscoverable compared to text, and I think it always will be that way, relatively speaking, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, with the exception of minor improvements here and there, but with podcasts,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people who are hearing what I’m saying right now are subscribed to this show,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who hear it on a regular basis, who hear the three of us talking for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a couple hours every week, and who have probably heard us for a couple hours every week for a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you listeners who are hearing me say this, you know us. The vast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco majority of you know us on some level. You know the context. You know the kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of people we are. You know roughly, you know, the context in which we are saying the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things we say, in which we think the things we think. You know, if we say something that’s a little bit off,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll probably give us the benefit of the doubt because you know who we actually are. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so, I think there are way fewer of those drive-by nasty interactions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for things you say on podcasts than there are for things you say on Twitter or on blog posts.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And for me, and the result is, podcast audiences tend

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be much smaller than popular blogs, popular, you know, tweets,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accounts, or whatever, YouTube channels that are a little more accessible to this kind of drive-by-ness. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast audiences are way smaller, but I get so much less

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nastiness per capita in podcasts than I do from any other audience by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a long shot. And I’ll say things on here that are potentially way riskier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say than I would ever say on my blog. And yet I get almost no crap for

⏹️ ▶️ John it. It’s just too much work to listen to a podcast. Anyone if someone starts retweeting your tweet around, you will

⏹️ ▶️ John get all the crazy drive by some people have no idea who you are and you’re angry, but it is just so much work. You’re like, I got to download

⏹️ ▶️ John a big audio file. And then you got to listen to audio and they don’t know overcast exists. So they don’t know they don’t know podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John clients exist. They don’t know they can listen faster. And it’s like, is the part where they talked about this, oh never mind. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John anyone can read a tweet in two seconds and get angry.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So it

⏹️ ▶️ John is not not, and even a blog post like when you know like when your blog post goes viral like

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re on CNBC or whatever like you’re just gonna drive by us for for half a year just because of that one

⏹️ ▶️ John thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right I mean here’s like I would love I would absolutely love if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter had a setting that would not show me mentions from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people who didn’t follow me for more than the past week. Think about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, there’s a lot Twitter can do for that, but that does actually get into the realm of features

⏹️ ▶️ John that would only benefit the people who have a larger than normal number of followers.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco But they already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have those features. Verified accounts have a setting where you can only see responses from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people you follow. And that’s too aggressive, yeah. Because then you can’t hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from strangers. So that’s too extreme. But if you look at the trash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you get, if you look at the nastiness, the nasty comments from people on Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the vast majority of them for me are from people who don’t follow me. Because they saw some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco retweet somewhere or something, then they’re like, ah, and they lash out and they yell at me.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they get nastier when they’re eggs. I mean, we can talk into the hole. Yeah. Like, you know, we don’t usually get the eggs, but we just

⏹️ ▶️ John get, we get the drive-bys of people who have established Twitter accounts. And they just talk in their circle. And we talk in our circle, and our circles

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t interact. But some little thing from our circle lands over in their circle and they will just come back and yell. But the good thing

⏹️ ▶️ John about them is for the most part, you’ll never see them again. Like they most of them won’t make it their mission in life to

⏹️ ▶️ John make your life miserable. Like my one was they had the video of like the woman being cat called on the street

⏹️ ▶️ John and I made one or two tweets about it and they somehow came leaked out of our circle because some right wing

⏹️ ▶️ John site put up the you know one of my tweets on their page and was just you know it was like

⏹️ ▶️ John months months of random fairly aggressive hate from from

⏹️ ▶️ John people who are totally outside circles who have no idea anything about who

⏹️ ▶️ John I am or that I have a podcast or like I’m just a person you know what I mean like and it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John that was miserable it was like I think I said I tweeted about it it was like you know five

⏹️ ▶️ John millisarkeesian’s worth of uh of of hate right but it just goes on but it just goes

⏹️ ▶️ John on forever like and eventually you know like I mean I I deal with things in a different way probably

⏹️ ▶️ John than than you to do. But like it was it was miserable and and it was like the

⏹️ ▶️ John rainstorm. It doesn’t end like, you know, I don’t know what your your CNBC

⏹️ ▶️ John story, you know, the Apple functional high ground stuff is going. I’m assuming you’re still getting those.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I’m hoping they’re not as hate filled as the things I was getting for this thing. And at the

⏹️ ▶️ John very least, anyone who’s going to be angry about functional high ground probably cares about Apple. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so at least they’re somewhere in your circle and that in respect you may not get rid of them But just get when I was getting the random

⏹️ ▶️ John hate from strangers. It helped that I knew these people Didn’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John anything about me. It helped that I knew That I was never gonna see these people on Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John again, right? It helped that it was so outside of the normal things I tweet about unlike your

⏹️ ▶️ John functional high ground things which is you’re just you are like cultivating the worst of your actual audience

⏹️ ▶️ John like people who care a lot about about Apple, and he really angry about you for saying stuff about Apple. Like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, if you say something, I was, what I’m saying is I was able to deal with it by saying, by thinking to myself,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m never going to see any of these people tweeting again. It’s probably not even worth my time to block them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because, like, if I just simply don’t engage with any of them, they’ll get it out of their system. They

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know who I am, you know, and it just it will blow over in two to three

⏹️ ▶️ John months. Right. And so and it did more or less, I haven’t got one of those in a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that was the way I dealt with that one. But you know, having to deal with that

⏹️ ▶️ John for two to three months, like going off Twitter would be another way to deal with that one. Like just say I’m going to come back from

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter in two to three months when this is blown over, right? And you just have to do whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John it takes for you to feel okay. And these unfortunate flare ups can happen to anybody like

⏹️ ▶️ John and again, I would say again, this is not a thing Oh, poor you, you got too many followers, anybody’s tweet. It’s not because I

⏹️ ▶️ John had a lot of followers, anybody’s tweet can be pulled out and put into the right place on

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, some website or forum or bulletin board that has an organized

⏹️ ▶️ John presence that disagrees with whatever it is that you are passionate about.

⏹️ ▶️ John That can happen to anybody because on the page I was on there was there was 50 other people, you know, some of those people had 10

⏹️ ▶️ John followers, right? They were going to get the same exact volume of hate mail that I was going to get because nobody who’s sending

⏹️ ▶️ John hate tweets of those people knows who they are, they just saw their tweets on a page, became

⏹️ ▶️ John enraged and funneled that rage into sending hate in their direction. It can happen to anybody. That’s the beauty of the

⏹️ ▶️ John internet. You know, if the Huffington Post grabs your tweet and puts

⏹️ ▶️ John it up and you could get angry hate filled email from people for months and you could have 10

⏹️ ▶️ John followers like this just that is the the beauty and curse of our age, I guess.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I really think that everyone has will eventually have to find

⏹️ ▶️ John their way of dealing with this situation and learning what their limits are. And I think what Casey

⏹️ ▶️ John was talking about before of like, not lying to yourself about what your limits are, not thinking because it shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John bother me, therefore, I will continue to do the thing that I know bothers me because I intellectually believe

⏹️ ▶️ John that it shouldn’t bother me. That’s probably not probably not a healthy coping mechanism.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s what I’ve been attempting and failing at. Just like Casey’s. I’ve been failing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco miserably at that for years now. And I think for me, the ultimate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solution is going to be reducing how much I use Twitter because Twitter is not going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to change. Twitter is, as a medium, like that setting I just said, no client is ever going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco able to add that really. They probably aren’t even allowed to anymore. With

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new Twitter rules of the road.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that would have to be a Twitter service thing. Because these are the type of features that Twitter as a service can

⏹️ ▶️ John do. And maybe they could think about that. But the fact that verified is still this rare

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that not everybody can get shows they really have no idea what the hell they’re doing in terms of making Twitter a more pleasant place.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly, yeah. And it just seems like the leadership of Twitter has no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interest from a product direction perspective in doing much about these kind of problems.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And some of them are not problems that Twitter really can solve, you know, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I recognize that. So for me, this is why I really like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco direction I’m going to really try to go now is just taking a lot of my usage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is currently on Twitter, and just taking it private. Because I being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in public for everything I do is just not working. It’s just not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it’s funny, because, as because I have the show on Relay because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have analog on Relay. I’ve been a part of the Relay FM Slack channel, and that has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a really awesome group of people in it. And I feel like that’s kind of filling.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, not filling a void necessarily, but it’s, I’m getting more positive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey experiences from that. In fact, they’re pretty much universally positive. And I’ve been a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little quips that I may throw into Twitter. Um, a lot of times I’ll just share with my,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my close friends on the Relay chat or slack because I know reliably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they will understand where I’m coming from, get my intention and get what I’m trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say. Even if or you know, maybe I’m just whining

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John about something.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ll only secretly hate you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. And I’m okay with that. I’m okay with them secretly hating me because this way I don’t have to know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they hate me. But all kidding aside, I wonder if if I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sway, let’s say the pendulum swings just all the way over to the relay FM slack. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I almost completely. Um, stop using Twitter. I think at that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point though, I’ll miss some of the random interactions. I’ll miss hearing about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fat frames and I’ll miss hearing about, uh, I’ll miss hearing about hearing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things from people that I don’t know, because genuinely, as much as we’re complaining and moaning or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sharing, if nothing else, our experiences with Twitter, I, both of you have said it and I can’t agree

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more that some unbelievably wonderful, wonderful things,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey um, happen on Twitter with random people. And some of, some people have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sent 140 character messages to me that are just heart crushingly awesome

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the best possible way. And so because of that, I don’t think I necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to give up on Twitter and I’m not saying either of you are saying that either, but I worry that if I get into this echo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chamber in the Slack chat, that maybe I’ll miss out on some of the contrarian opinions that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m honest, I’m probably not getting on Twitter anyway, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like to think I’m getting on Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s why it’s a balance, right? It’s a balance we all need to find. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think right now we’ve, in the last few years, with the rise of all this social stuff and mobile stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think we’ve gone a little too far in the everything is public on social network’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco direction. And now I think we’re going to start swinging back a little bit, hopefully on that pendulum, with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, okay, not everything needs to be public all the time. And we’re actually and then being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco private can actually be quite peaceful and a relief from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always being in public all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there’s a gap in the model lineup, so to speak, going back to the MacBook type analogy, where you ever we all have

⏹️ ▶️ John private messages, we all have I message text messages, instant message one on one or one on you know

⏹️ ▶️ John a small circle of people right there’s that then there’s the public thing over there on Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John right and then the in between thing is this and I think there’s a reason the in between thing is a big gap I think of things

⏹️ ▶️ John like slack or glass board or like a small group of people or even an IRC channel a small

⏹️ ▶️ John group of people who are who know each other that because you don’t want to talk one-on-one with all your individual friends you

⏹️ ▶️ John do want a place that’s in between because if you want to talk one-on-one you’ll just send people text messages or instant message

⏹️ ▶️ John like That’s fine. That’s a solved problem. But sometimes you want to talk to two or three or four or be in a room or even be someplace

⏹️ ▶️ John as big as Ool with like a whole bunch of people, right? But it’s still not public. There’s a difference, Gene. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if you were talking to everybody, WWDC, that’s only a few thousand people. It’s not the entire world of,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, whatever it is, 7 billion. So why is there that gap there? And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the reasons that gap is there is we used to have before we had the big public things. All we had were the little

⏹️ ▶️ John places we had private, which would be like one to one email or instant message and then we had self

⏹️ ▶️ John constructed small social groups isolated by obscurity like a bunch of people on you know the

⏹️ ▶️ John Galapagos Island where you have this little miniature ecosystem would be like one usenet group up in a corner that with

⏹️ ▶️ John like 200 regulars and that makes a little community there and technically it’s in public but it’s protected

⏹️ ▶️ John by the fact that Google doesn’t exist yet and there’s no way for people to find you and it’s you know it’s like you’re hiding on your little island until

⏹️ ▶️ John the boats show up right and even things like slack or whatever you end up with these little islands

⏹️ ▶️ John and I remember those days. And what happened in those days was, you ended up with too many islands. Here’s where

⏹️ ▶️ John I go to talk about people what Star Wars, here’s where I go to talk, talk to people about computer stuff. Here’s where

⏹️ ▶️ John I, you know, talk to my family. And it was like, they were these little private islands at the scale that Marco was looking

⏹️ ▶️ John for. But you ended up with 50 of them. You’re like, geez, I don’t like having to go to all these different protocols, all these different places.

⏹️ ▶️ John And sometimes I want to cross pollinate, and I got to check, you know, five different places for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But what happens is either those little places die out, or those little places sort of metastasize

⏹️ ▶️ John and become Twitter, essentially, like that is the lifecycle of those places. It’s things that that scale either

⏹️ ▶️ John just like fizzle and die out or become like, there’s too many of them that you can’t go to all the ones like the reason

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re going back to, even if there’s like seven people there, we know it’s just it doesn’t have critical mass, or

⏹️ ▶️ John they grow, but they start like, well, why doesn’t everybody on using it now? Why isn’t everybody on it, I will instant

⏹️ ▶️ John message and why, you know, like, why isn’t everybody in this slack room? There’s some people I wish were in the slack room who weren’t, but the people you

⏹️ ▶️ John wish were in the slack room are different than the set of people the other person thinks were in the wishes were in the slack room. And eventually everybody that you follow on Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John is in the slack room, you just recreate a Twitter inside your slack room, right? And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey so

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s true. It’s true. That uncomfortable middle part is like, it’s, I think it’s very difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John for things to live in that middle part, because they always move in one direction or another. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John very difficult to find stasis there unless you have a very narrow focus. I think people find that stasis with

⏹️ ▶️ John Facebook, even though Facebook is basically public, because they have the same protection of obscurity

⏹️ ▶️ John and because they have one axis. They just want to talk to their family and friends. Maybe that’s two axes, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like, it’s problem if you want to say, where are the people I want to talk about fixing up my car?

⏹️ ▶️ John Where are the people I want to talk about metalworking? Where are the people I want to talk about this sports team? Where are the people I want to talk about that sports team? And then you

⏹️ ▶️ John end up with these little islands again. If you try to do it all at once, then you just end up with Twitter. And it’s, it is a difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John balance. You’re talking to all these people who you don’t who you never see who

⏹️ ▶️ John live all over the world

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, it’s I couldn’t agree with you more And the funny thing is I have now dedicated one of the spaces on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my work machine to be my like communication pain And accepting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Twitter I have slack I have in like the upper left hand corner

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have IRC in the upper right hand corner I have I message and I am in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the in the lower right hand corner and I have hip chat for work in the lower left hand corner.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I have four panes on the screen at once that are the four different places that I that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have real time communication. And then on top of that is Twitter. And on top of that is email.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I already am feeling a bit of exhaustion, but I’d much rather have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tiredness than the sadness that I wonder if I’m getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more of than happiness from Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ John At least you don’t have web forums and use that, right? So you’re you’re trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey list a

⏹️ ▶️ John little bit. I remember I remember back in the days where most of my communities of this size were web bulletin

⏹️ ▶️ John boards like because use that had gone away and the big web hadn’t come and there were web bulletin boards that I would

⏹️ ▶️ John just you just cycle through and check all of them are little communities in each one. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think that was much better. In fact, like I find Twitter freeing because

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re in a web web, Bolton bark community, or even a slack channel and someone’s being a jerk, you can’t unfollow them or you couldn’t back in

⏹️ ▶️ John the day anyway, like there was no equivalent of like I don’t want to see what they have to say again, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, because other people would reply to them and then you see their replies like Twitter has helped in that regard both by keeping their volume

⏹️ ▶️ John down because they can only post too much and by sort of letting you try to trace

⏹️ ▶️ John the outlines of your own little island by curating your follow list to give yourself a fighting chance.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whereas the you know, if if for example, in your slack thing. A bunch of people were invited in who you didn’t like, who didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John like you. You can’t participate in that slack room in an enjoyable way. Anyway, the tools aren’t there for you to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John It becomes dead to you. You have to just leave. Whereas if a bunch of people come on Twitter and obnoxious to you,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can or start becoming obnoxious. You can either unfollow them or block them and still have the conversation with the people that you

⏹️ ▶️ John like. So, uh, you know, I think things are better

⏹️ ▶️ John now, uh, in, in the sense that the big public one is actually

⏹️ ▶️ John viable enough to fool us all into thinking like, oh, I don’t need that in between when anymore. The big public one is fine. And for a long time,

⏹️ ▶️ John that kind of worked out. That’s how good the big public one is now compared to what it was before. But

⏹️ ▶️ John we definitely do need those middle sized islands of connections. I just don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know the solution to getting a set of those that is stable and satisfactory that don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John either disappear or become big things.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Oh, we’ll see what happens. But it’s interesting. It’s an interesting conversation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I love when we get a little touchy-feely on this show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’re just stealing all your analog.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh iMike is gonna be so angry.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh I want to give you a couple more, I don’t know if they count as tips, but things that I’ve been doing to

⏹️ ▶️ John try to help manage Twitter negative, they may or may

⏹️ ▶️ John not work for you, but one of the things is like, you know you’re talking about people don’t give

⏹️ ▶️ John us the benefit of the doubt and assume the worst about us and everything, it goes both ways. We do the same thing about them like because because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like you know it’s why smileys were invented because text is not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the

⏹️ ▶️ John best medium and someone said type something like you know with the kids while you typed okay with a period that means you’re angry right

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s very difficult easy to misread what people are saying and in the

⏹️ ▶️ John same way they do so very often someone will come at me with something that I think that is aggressive

⏹️ ▶️ John and I will do something to try to determine whether they were intentionally aggressive or whether they were trying and failing

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a joke because that’s the whole thing like Marker was saying, these people listen to us and they know us and they feel like they’re familiar in the same way that we

⏹️ ▶️ John can say things to each other that, you know, we take for granted that the mean things we say to each other are jokes, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And so at the very least that gives us a leg up on thinking, does he really think that? You’re like, well, no, it’s obviously meant as a joke. But when strangers

⏹️ ▶️ John do it, they think they know us. We have no idea who they are. Totally reads as naked aggression to us.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I will reply to them in a way that will, that will give them an

⏹️ ▶️ John opportunity to basically say in whatever so many words

⏹️ ▶️ John like I didn’t mean it that way or like to reveal themselves

⏹️ ▶️ John as being it was an attempt at good natured joshing and they’re actually a fan and they were trying to be nice and they failed like

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to give them the benefit of the doubt especially if they follow me because I am unlike

⏹️ ▶️ John you know I’m more aggressive my blocking these days but unlike Marcos policy I have not come

⏹️ ▶️ John to the point where I will or flexibly block people and I feel really bad about blocking anybody who follows me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, this is just my how I’m dealing with things, but you would think like, okay, fine, do that thing where you try to see if the

⏹️ ▶️ John if the given the benefit of the doubt, all you’re going to do is just make them pissed off more and make yourself more miserable. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John have to admit that does happen sometimes. But what I have found is that the one or two times

⏹️ ▶️ John that I engage in someone in a way that lets them reveal the fact that that I should have given the

⏹️ ▶️ John benefit of the doubt that just like it was a joke that came off wrong, right? whatever, I feel better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like that is a that is a positive lift more than I think even if they had just come out in the beginning

⏹️ ▶️ John and said something nice. Like I feel that there’s a positive lift that like I was able to turn it around

⏹️ ▶️ John that what could have turned into a fight didn’t turn into one and we came to an understanding that someone was misunderstood

⏹️ ▶️ John and that we worked it out and that like that it gives me faith in humanity that they’re like that not everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John who I think is evil and mean is actually evil and mean sometimes I just make a mistake with what they type, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it happens every once in a it doesn’t happen a lot. I have to admit, like, it’s not gonna, you know, they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John all good, like, but the few times it does happen, I think, personally, it gives me a lift to counteract like

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, how like the one bad comment is disproportionately weighing on you. The one good thing that happens,

⏹️ ▶️ John I find disproportionately lifts me. And I also think like, you know, the person on the other

⏹️ ▶️ John end of that feels better out as well and maybe learn something about, you know, not being mean and

⏹️ ▶️ John the way I do this, someone says they just saw me do this on Twitter today. The way I do this is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t look very nice because very often I do this by coming back at them directly to essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John give them a reply that looks very aggressive, but it lets them know you said something that hurts my feeling and I don’t even know

⏹️ ▶️ John who you are. And maybe you didn’t mean to do that. And if they are actually mean, I’ve done a

⏹️ ▶️ John comeback. Like, you know, I’ve come back at them in the typical way that you argue with somebody, but

⏹️ ▶️ John if they didn’t mean to be mean, like I found that rather

⏹️ ▶️ John than trying to engage them and say, did you really mean that or blah blah blah, if I come back at them in a way that would make

⏹️ ▶️ John a good person feel shame, they will feel shame and come back with nice things. If I come back at them in a way that would make a good

⏹️ ▶️ John person feel shame and they did intend to hurt my feelings,

⏹️ ▶️ John then I still feel like I’ve made an aggressive counter move and then I just block them and move on, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if that’s going to help for you guys. I don’t know if it’s ever happened to you, like you’ve turned someone around or like you, I mean, we kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of had it with like, you know, someone in the chat room who was, uh, sent us an angry email and we talked about it and like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, kind of work things out and turn things around, right? That positive outcome

⏹️ ▶️ John lifts my estimation of humanity and can turn a bad day into a good one. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John if you guys want to take that chance. It’s certainly a lot of work, but I found that that does help me feel

⏹️ ▶️ John better about the whole thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. You know, I’ve, uh, that’s another thing I’m working on in that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sometimes I’ll try to reply with an equal amount. What I feel is an equal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey amount of snark for exactly the same reason, John. So for example, the person

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who had tweeted to me, you know, you’re being ridiculous, keep track of your cards. my reply

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to that person was, it was an honest mistake. You’re being ridiculous, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not saying I’m necessarily proud of that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my thought was I have replied in kind. And the thing that, that bums me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out about it though, is that looking back on it, I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel good about that reply. And it, and it’s tough because it bothered

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me enough that I felt like I wanted them to this person to know that I am bothered,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t know that I’ve gotten enough relief from replying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a snarky way either.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Does that

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think you let them know that you were upset, though. I think you just came back to them the regular just arguing like the one from today.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t remember what it was, but someone someone was, you know, complaining about my pronunciation

⏹️ ▶️ John of Mary, which happens all the time. It’s fine. Like that’s that’s fine. I have all the time, but you can do that in a funny

⏹️ ▶️ John way or you can do that in a mean way, And this person did it in

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of a mean condescending way, right? But as far as I knew, they could have been

⏹️ ▶️ John in their mind, it could have been exactly the same feeling as all the other people who like, you know, do it in this silly

⏹️ ▶️ John way, right? Like we do it to each other and so like it’s a running gag on the show, right? But if someone misfires in an attempt at

⏹️ ▶️ John humor, it can come off seeming really mean. Rather than thinking that person is really mean and getting down about it,

⏹️ ▶️ John what I came back with them was like, you know, know, using a similar like echo of their comments of

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, I told them basically like they, you know, being condescending, you know, there’s something

⏹️ ▶️ John like, how hard is it not to say the word Mario? Like, you know, like, it’s a subtle difference in phrasing of just,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you pronounce it a weird way, blah, blah, blah, or making a joke or just saying, I roll

⏹️ ▶️ John how hard is it to pronounce this word, right? And depending on your mood, and I was in a not a particularly

⏹️ ▶️ John good mood at that point. I’m like, really, you’re gonna come at me and say, how hard is it to print? Like, there are ways to phrase that that are

⏹️ ▶️ John not quite as mean. It wasn’t the mean is not that mean, but I would just it annoyed me. So I said, How hard is it not to be condescending

⏹️ ▶️ John to strangers on Twitter, which emphasized a couple of things, one that I don’t even know you that you are essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John like Marco said walking by my porch, seeing me have a conversation, not even because it’s like from a podcast from who knows when,

⏹️ ▶️ John and just yelling at me that you’re disappointed that like, how hard is it to do this thing? I find so easy. You’re a terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John person, right? And my thing comes back at them. It’s like, it is kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John a comeback, right? But it’s also emphasizes the fact that what were you just doing there? You

⏹️ ▶️ John were being condescending to someone you don’t even know on Twitter. We have no we have never met. I don’t know who you are. I don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John know what you’re referring to. And your opening salvo is to be condescending to me about how I pronounce something right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the person came back and I forget what their reply was. But it was like, it was acknowledgement

⏹️ ▶️ John that that’s really not how they meant to come across. And they’re just like, they just thought it was funny how it was pronounced or whatever. And then I explained

⏹️ ▶️ John to them that it was a regional accent and whatever, like, you know, it is has an effectively

⏹️ ▶️ John a positive result. But the important point was to like,

⏹️ ▶️ John communicate to that, like, make them realize how their actions look from my perspective. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know if you saying that, like, you know, that you said about the expiring credit cards,

⏹️ ▶️ John let them really let really communicate to them how you were feeling about it or what it looks like from

⏹️ ▶️ John your perspective. But like I said, sometimes, you know, I think the percentage of this work is really low.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, is and most of the time I don’t do anything and I just ignore it and move on. But every once in a while,

⏹️ ▶️ John I make a go at that. And I’m just so happy and pleasantly

⏹️ ▶️ John surprised that it makes me feel better when it actually does work and someone and what could have been a conflict turns into

⏹️ ▶️ John not a conflict.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. I just feel like in retrospect, that maybe the the right answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess the reason I tweeted in replied was because I wanted some amount of closure. And, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in retrospect, the closure I got was not the closure I wanted, because if I just ignored it, it would have eaten

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the back of my head, like all day long. Like, why was that person such a jerk? What did I ever do to bother

⏹️ ▶️ Casey them? It was an honest freaking mistake. Why are they so upset? And so that’s why I replied because it did get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it out of my head, but I am not getting the relief and satisfaction

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from, from my tweet that, that I wanted. And And that’s probably, it’s certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on me. I mean, I could have said something different, like you’re, like you’re saying, John, I could have handled it differently, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. It’s just, it’s stuff like that. Like this little one shot thing that really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the grand scheme of things is not a big deal, but you get it constantly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it weighs on you. I don’t know. I mean, I’m telling you things you already know. It’s just, it’s constant,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I feel, and a lot more constant than it ever used to be. And I think that’s in large part because I have more of an audience than I never

⏹️ ▶️ Casey used to have. But I don’t know. It’s just it’s tough. It’s been tough for me to deal with.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And we’re very lucky that we’re receiving any sort of feedback at all. And we’re not just shouting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into the abyss. But sometimes the echo you get back is not the echo you want.