110: And on That Bombshell…
27 Mar 2015Nintendo and DeNA, laptop docks and wireless charging, Tim Cook’s model-lineup philosophy, and the abrupt end of Top Gear.
Episode Description:
- Follow-up:
- Pronunciation of Marques Brownlee
- Has Intel Skylake been delayed?
- Reasons for MacBook limitations
- 16 GB RAM
- 1 USB port
- RAM and silicon process sizes
- Apple apps updated to use Force Touch trackpad
- New MacBook missing 3-finger drag?
- Tim Cook's model-lineup philosophy
- Intel SkyLake and the wireless PC
- Nintendo and DeNA Partnership
- Post-show about the presumed demise of Top Gear:
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- Song by Jonathan Mann
Transcript start
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s a bad reason for a couple of reasons
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our first bit of follow-up John it’s about pronunciation. So you’re in charge of it
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t know why that’s the case, but I did put this in there Dan from Twitter
⏹️ ▶️ John Wrote us to tell us the correct pronunciation of MKBHD’s name. It is apparently Marquez
⏹️ ▶️ John Not Marcus or any other thing that we tried to mumble our way through in the last show
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see I’m annoyed by this because back when we first talked about his him in his video when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he got the The alleged iPhone 6 screen cover with the possible sapphire
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guessed that it would have been pronounced Marquez and so I said Marquez and I heard from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a few people saying that’s wrong so That’s why I didn’t try to pronounce it that way again
⏹️ ▶️ John We don’t know this is right either anyone could type anything into a box on the web,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey but I believe typing seemed authentic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Still would like to have a video of Marquez saying his own name just so I can you know hear it from him
⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, that would be good. There probably are a thousand hours of that video, but we don’t know because we don’t watch his channel. But he
⏹️ ▶️ Casey himself MKBHD. Wait, that’s what he calls himself like in his own videos?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he says, hey guys, this is MKBHD. And then he like, so really, yeah, that’s the first place I looked for pronunciation
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like Madonna, but way longer.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Real time follow up from underscore, who is my favorite person to have in the chat because he is like our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey entire research squad in one character, which is underscore. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey he has found a link to Marquez pronouncing his name and it’s a video so I haven’t listened to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it but he has confirmed that it is indeed Marquez.
⏹️ ▶️ John My name is Marquez Brownlee. Skylake, no sooner have we talked about Skylake
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe, you know, maybe Apple won’t even use Broadwell because Skylake is coming so soon. Broadwell was delayed
⏹️ ▶️ John because they had a lot of trouble with the 14 nanometer process. Skylake is a new architecture but on the same process.
⏹️ ▶️ John So maybe Apple just skipped right to that. And now, just before the show, I got a link to an article
⏹️ ▶️ John that posted rumors about Skylake possibly being delayed. Now, it’s from Digitimes,
⏹️ ▶️ John so take it with a grain of salt. But supposedly they’re delaying it until August.
⏹️ ▶️ John And the article we link to here from IT World, I think tries to say that
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re delaying it just to space out their products, not for any particular reason. Like, they would be ready, but
⏹️ ▶️ John they want to space it out to give room for Broadwell to sell. I don’t know what to think. Betting
⏹️ ▶️ John on Intel delaying something is always a safe bet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the law of Intel delays and release dates is that every Intel
⏹️ ▶️ Marco release will be late, except for the one that comes right after whatever you buy.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, as a question to mark on this bit of follow-up, this is not a definitive thing. It is just a link
⏹️ ▶️ John to a rumor from DigiTime, so we’ll see how it goes. But I’m thinking that Apple’s going to ship
⏹️ ▶️ John Broadbent machines no matter what. of Skylake was available for sale now. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s too late. Apple’s already got the Broadwell machines designed, ready, manufacturing. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they’re just going to, you know, know what, they’re going to ship no matter what.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think you’re right. Having Skylake come so soon after Broadwell was already pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco suspicious. And so now, if there’s any hint that it might actually be delayed,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s extremely plausible. I agree. I think we’re going to see Broadwell this summer on the 15th, and that’ll be that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we’ll see Skylake next year. And we also heard some interesting information that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possibly explains limitations of the new MacBook. So one thing I had complained
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about initially was that it only has eight gigs of RAM and that’s not configurable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to anything higher. We heard from a number of people, and these are publicly documented on Intel’s site and stuff,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the Broadwell Core M chipset that is used in the new MacBook to get that low
⏹️ ▶️ Marco power five watt fanless design, the max RAM it supports
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is 8 gigs. So that’s it. Like there’s just, there’s no more RAM that the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chipset can support. So that’s why 8 gigs is what it is.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I tried to look that up rather than just taking these people’s word for it. If you go to Intel site, it says the limit
⏹️ ▶️ John is 16 and you can see machines with 16 gigs with the same processor. What
⏹️ ▶️ John the person who wrote to us under the name K, period, says is that the limit, yeah, you can put 16
⏹️ ▶️ John on it, Intel site says 16, but if you want the RAM be soldered to the circuit board,
⏹️ ▶️ John not like a DIMM or anything like that, that the core RAM only has two channels and it’s four gigs per channel
⏹️ ▶️ John for RAM that’s soldered onto the board and thus the limit of eight. And on Intel’s site it did say, you know, maximum
⏹️ ▶️ John RAM and then it said in parentheses, depending on type, I could not dig my way to whatever document
⏹️ ▶️ John gives the more verbose explanation. Yeah, depending on type, what does that mean? Like that leaves you with, maybe yeah, if you have DIMMs, you can
⏹️ ▶️ John do 16, but if it’s half soldered to the board, you’re limited to eight. I’m inclined to believe these people, I just couldn’t find the documentation
⏹️ ▶️ John to back it up. But it makes sense. You know, like this is the smallest of the small, low powered,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, chipsets for laptops. And Apple definitely is soldering their RAM to a board. And we
⏹️ ▶️ John do see machines out there with 16 with the same chip, but maybe they’re not soldering it to the board. So
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s entirely plausible. Makes sense to me.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And, you know, looking at it from Intel’s point of view, this is a really low end chip. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s going to it’s going in some really like, you know, sexy laptops that we all want. but the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reality is these are low-end parts. These are slow, they’re very, very low power. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco why they’re slow. They have to be really low power. They’re going into these very physically small designs with very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco few chips. So, and this leads us very well into our next follow-up point on this, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, John, you’ve been begging for a long time, months,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years, on somebody to give you a good reason why there is only one USB
⏹️ ▶️ Marco port on this machine. Let me stop you there because
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco this is old follow up and I don’t consider,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can go continue to explain it, but I’ve seen this before and
⏹️ ▶️ John said, I gotta see the technical docs, I gotta see the sourcing. Otherwise it’s just, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so we got two possible explanations here. The first one, which I think is a little bit less
⏹️ ▶️ Marco solid, is from Chris Jones, who says that the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco PCH, which is what I think it used to be called the Southbridge, the platform controller hub or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s called, And that’s the chip on the motherboard, for those that don’t know, that controls most of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I.O. stuff, especially the slower I.O. stuff. So not like RAM and GPUs, which is all, I believe, now directly controlled
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the CPU and the entire lineup, but now it’s like, you know, USB stuff, basically.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so the PCH integrated into this chipset by Intel provides
⏹️ ▶️ Marco four USB 3 connections. A typical MacBook uses one USB connection internally
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Bluetooth, one for the keyboard trackpad and one for the FaceTime camera, leaving one connection left
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the USB Type-C port. For Apple to add more ports, if they wanted them to be USB 3,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would require them to add a separate USB controller, which would be another chip on the board.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That costs board space, that costs power, that costs money. All these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco costs that they probably chose not to do it. This might be a little bit unreliable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a reason because, and as Chris points out, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB 2.0 ports are counted separately. I checked on my MacBook Pro, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is granted three years old, but I checked on that and the keyboard and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Bluetooth controller are plugged into the USB 2.0 bus on mine. That’s what I was going to get
⏹️ ▶️ John at. I remember back in the day, I think some internal components on PowerBooks then
⏹️ ▶️ John were on ADB. Wow. they’re going to use the smallest, lowest cost
⏹️ ▶️ John connection possible for the internal component. So why does the track made need USB three versus
⏹️ ▶️ John USB two, you know, and same thing for a four ADP camera. So that’s why
⏹️ ▶️ John this is kind of like, you have to use connections for these things. You can’t like it just doesn’t make sense to me. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John why would you use USB three connection for the camera,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And the keyboard too. I mean, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Especially the keyboard like there’s not a high bandwidth the device. Yes, so I this is a good theory
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not sure that it applies here though, but the better reason
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I think this is worse,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay the better reason as pointed out by K period is That due
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to limitations of the integrated Intel GPU in this fanless low-power chipset
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is not possible to drive two external displays at very high resolutions along with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the internal panel so anything I believe past 1080p, it’s considered a high resolution,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it can’t drive two externals. It can only do one external at those resolutions, plus the built-in panel.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so if there are multiple USB-C ports, and assuming you could plug a display into
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a USB-C port, then only one of them could reasonably drive a display. And so there would be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this weird situation where you’d have these two identical ports, only one of which can drive a high resolution display,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but both of which possibly might be able to drive low resolution. It’d be weird. So that that I think is a pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s a bad reason for a couple of reasons. One, we already established when we were trying to figure out if it had mirroring
⏹️ ▶️ John member like, Oh, can I do mirroring or can do extended display? And I think you looked it up and said, Oh, it says right here on the specs page,
⏹️ ▶️ John it has mirroring and also dual display, dual meaning to this machine supports two
⏹️ ▶️ John displays. That’s what the Apple specs say. That’s what the machine does. If you have it with two identical ports, you plug a monitor into
⏹️ ▶️ John one, then you get a second monitor and you plug into the second one. You’re like, what the hell the second monitor isn’t working. It only supports two
⏹️ ▶️ John displays. It says it right there on the spec page. There’s no ambiguity. Would you be like Enraged or confused
⏹️ ▶️ John by the fact that you can’t support three displays the machine only supports two for years Laptops only supported two displays
⏹️ ▶️ John like you just keep plugging displays and willy-nilly The only supports do displays having another USB
⏹️ ▶️ John port put 17 USB ports and there people like now I can have 17 displays No, you gotta go to the tech specs page. Say how
⏹️ ▶️ John many displays can I drive from this thing? So that makes no sense to me like the people will somehow be confused
⏹️ ▶️ John or angry or disappointed disappointed that the machine that clearly says supports dual displays can only
⏹️ ▶️ John support dual displays.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, okay, I disagree that that’s a valid reason, but I at least, we will have to agree
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to disagree on this, which is a phrase
⏹️ ▶️ John So what do you think? Like, they would say, well, we could put two USB ports in this thing, but we can
⏹️ ▶️ John only support two displays, so we better get rid of that port. Like, that make sense to you? That’s the kind of reasoning you would support?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, what I see here are a bunch of smaller reasons That potentially
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you add all these reasons up might be enough justification And by the way, and we heard
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a theory from a few people that I want to address People saying that Apple is artificially
⏹️ ▶️ Marco only giving one port that way they can sell an upgraded model Next year or whenever with two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ports and people will buy the upgraded model What do you mean by upgraded like just
⏹️ ▶️ John the next revision of the machine? Yeah, exactly That doesn’t make any sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right exactly we hear this theory a lot whenever there’s any limitation And we usually hear from a handful of people like this,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or like, well, they’re just artificially keeping that down so they can release it next year and have everybody upgrade. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think, I mean, I don’t know how Apple works internally with regard to decisions like that,
⏹️ ▶️ John but. That’s not how any business works. So it’s like going to a sandwich shop, let’s give them a little bit crappier sandwich today so
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco we can sell them
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco one. They’re
⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna come back if you sell them a product that doesn’t satisfy them, they’re not gonna say, well, now I have to
⏹️ ▶️ John buy the new one next year. Like if you get a car and it’s not a great car, maybe you look for a different car maker next time,
⏹️ ▶️ John are going to say, damn it, they just did this, so I’ll buy the better Honda next year. No, you’re just not going to buy a Honda if you get
⏹️ ▶️ John a product that’s not satisfactory. They’re not intentionally handicapping their products
⏹️ ▶️ John with the goal of, oh, we’ll get them next time. That’ll make them buy a new computer sooner. It just doesn’t make sense
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly. I mean, there’s so many reasons why products have limitations in one generation. In
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the next generation, they’re lifted, or things are faster, or better, or whatever. And usually,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s regards to reasonable, justifiable reasons like availability or costs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or things like that, or just not being feasible yet, or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having major trade-offs, major downsides. So that’s, I don’t think any, and by the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way, most people don’t buy every generation of a product. And most people don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco follow things so closely that they would even know. Like most of Apple’s customers, if they buy this machine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and one comes out next year with two ports. They’re not shopping for a computer then, they don’t know. Right, like they won’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know until that computer dies or gets too slow to be usable or the battery starts wearing out really badly and they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go in two or three years or more and look at a new computer. Like that’s when they’re gonna see what’s available then,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which might be totally different. Usually
⏹️ ▶️ John much more. It’s not like, phones, if you’re lucky, they go every two years, but some people feel
⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, my contract’s over, now I have this freedom period, whatever, but Macs, people just use them,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what the upgrade cycle is on Macs, but I think it’s way longer than any other
⏹️ ▶️ John thing and certainly not one year. I mean, even Mark doesn’t buy new Macs every year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I just said I’m using a three-year-old MacBook Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iMac and the Mac Pro is. That’s true. I think that was a special case though. Before that, my things lasted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty long because I kept buying Mac Pros.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, is your Mac Pro hit a decade yet or no?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey years. It’s hanging in there. God, that’s a closer answer than I expected, if I’m honest.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The funny thing is, so I took a trip last week to England and I was using my laptop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very heavily and every time I use my laptop I realize, with the exception of the screen retention,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which I could get fixed for, I think like $400, somebody told me it would be about that, I don’t know. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably not gonna get it fixed, probably not worth it. But this machine I got was the base model,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 1999 model, the base model that came out three years ago, it was the first Retina 15 inch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I was looking, just out of curiosity, I was looking like, if I wanted to replace this today,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it broke or if I wanna replace it this summer with Broadwell, what would I replace it with? what configuration
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and looked at the configurations that are available today and I would get the base model again.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The specs are so good. Now it’s 16 gigs of RAM, mine is eight. It’s a faster CPU, it’s same disk
⏹️ ▶️ Marco space but I don’t need a lot of space because it’s not my primary computer. And so it’s no big deal. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I would, I think if BroadBot comes out this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco summer, like I said, I have a family member who I kind of need to hand this down to pretty soon. So if BroadBot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comes out this summer and it’s a reasonable update, to buy the base model again probably. If I didn’t have a good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reason to upgrade, I would keep using this one for another year or two at least.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I would guess the average duration of a Mac owner
⏹️ ▶️ Marco between upgrading the computers is probably three years or more.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I’ve had my work computer for three years. I’ve had my personal computer for three-ish
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I probably will be getting a new machine, a new machine for myself sometime
⏹️ ▶️ Casey soon. And I know work is on a three year cycle, so I might be rocking two different, two different new
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Macs this year. I don’t know. We’ll see if we’ll see what happens. But yeah, I mean, a three year cycle is not unreasonable.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think most people would actually go on an even longer cycle. And especially for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey those like myself who have machines that have spinning platters in them, know,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even just an SSD can make a tremendous difference.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our first sponsor is Cards Against Humanity. Now, once again, they have not given me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any script to read and instead, they have sent john another toaster to review. So john,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what toaster Do you have this week? And what are your thoughts on it?
⏹️ ▶️ John This week, I have the Hamilton Beach 31230. They have the the
⏹️ ▶️ John idea of taking letters out of their model number, which I don’t know if it makes it worse or better, I guess probably better. It can’t
⏹️ ▶️ John be that much worse than the other ones we’ve been seeing. Yeah, they’ll have they’ll have like a name like, you know, set it and forget it. Toaster
⏹️ ▶️ John oven, you know, like there’s some word that’s on the cover. That’s not the name of the product is the model number. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is a big one. This is a very big toaster. It’s the inside is about the same size as my
⏹️ ▶️ John Breville 650 XL, which is a pretty big toaster. You can usually fit four slices of bread in it. But the outside
⏹️ ▶️ John of this thing, like first of all, the left and right side and back have curves on them. So it’s wider than you think it
⏹️ ▶️ John is. Like you look at it from the front and you think just the brightly colored rectangles aside, but It has bulges, like big metal bulges.
⏹️ ▶️ John So that adds a couple inches on either side and in the back. And the thing to the right of the toaster where all the buttons are is pretty thick.
⏹️ ▶️ John So this is, I think this is probably as big as the Breville version of mine that has convection. And I think that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John probably what makes this thing larger is that this also has convection. So it’s just the price you pay for convection,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get a much bigger toaster.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it’s, it’s showed in the Amazon pictures as containing what appears to be either a very large chicken or a very small
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s like a smallish chicken. Like it’s same size inside as my Breville, the outside
⏹️ ▶️ John is bigger. So it the interesting feature this has and you can see it in the picture is this thing comes with a probe
⏹️ ▶️ John thermometer that’s attached to the toaster in a very very poorly designed little door that you kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of that you shove the the probe into it like a slot and then you wad up the the rubber coated
⏹️ ▶️ John wire for the probe and then you try to close this little door it’s terrible. Anyway it does have a probe attached to it for
⏹️ ▶️ John food temperature so you can put the probe into your food and close the door yes close it on your rubber
⏹️ ▶️ John surrounded thermometer wire thing like the door door will close all the way with the wire
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of shoved and pinched through there. Which is weird and it also means there has to be kind of a gap around the entire
⏹️ ▶️ John door to the toaster. Anyway, you stick the probe in and you can pick the desired temperature of the food
⏹️ ▶️ John and you just turn the thing on and it will turn itself off when your food hits the correct temperature. And it’s got the government food
⏹️ ▶️ John safety temperatures for different kinds of food printed on the door of the toaster in case you forget.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I just take this time to remind everybody that the government food safety temperatures for food are often crazy.
⏹️ ▶️ John They say you should cook pork to 160 to 170 degrees I invite everyone listening to this to
⏹️ ▶️ John cook a pork chop to 170 degrees and then tell me how it tastes to them It tastes like sawdust you cannot
⏹️ ▶️ John cook pork to 170 degrees They do that for like, you know prevention from trigonosis or anyway All
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m saying is the the government food safety temperatures for food are super conservative Yeah, you it will kill
⏹️ ▶️ John every German that food it will also kill the food and it’s to be tasteless and terrible So God, please email John about this. Not
⏹️ ▶️ John if you die of trigonosis, don’t blame me But I’m just you know feel free to cook your pork to 170, but that’s no way to
⏹️ ▶️ John live. Just don’t eat pork then oh
⏹️ ▶️ Marco My god, we’re gonna hear from everybody on both
⏹️ ▶️ John sides of this argument you realize no everyone who knows anything about cooking pork will say yes Of course you can’t do you have
⏹️ ▶️ John any you ever cooked pork to 170 I’ve never cooked pork. Oh you guys don’t cook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, the only time I ever cooked pork is bacon, and that’s a whole different ballgame
⏹️ ▶️ John both of you don’t cook No, I cook just not that Alright, just not that never
⏹️ ▶️ John in your whole life ever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean like Casey. I’ve cooked bacon bacon. But I don’t really like eating pork chops, so I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cook them. No pork roast? Nothing? No. Not even big hams. No, I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not really a huge pork fan.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right. Well, now you’ve got angry letters from the pork fans. Anyway, the
⏹️ ▶️ John toaster is a toaster. I tried to do my typical toast off versus mine, where you put a
⏹️ ▶️ John cold toaster, put a piece of bread in each one right in the middle, start toasting, see who wins. So, you know, I’ve been
⏹️ ▶️ John timing them all that the toast off was thwarted by the fact that this thing is humongous and
⏹️ ▶️ John my other toaster is not particularly small and I tripped the circuit breaker in
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco my kitchen halfway through the toasting
⏹️ ▶️ John process trying to toast bread and broasted. This is a 1400 watt toaster oven.
⏹️ ▶️ John I flipped the breaker and tried again when the toasters were cooled one at a time. This is a slow
⏹️ ▶️ John toaster for toasting bread. It is slower than my Breville. It’s the slowest one I’ve had. It’s large, it’s cavernous, and
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s got the, uh, I just think it’s like resistive heating elements that are not the quartz ones
⏹️ ▶️ John that are like shiny and thick and light up quickly. These are skinnier and dark and they slowly
⏹️ ▶️ John start to glow red. It is really slow to toast. I don’t know if I could tolerate trying to cook toast in this thing because
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just it’s just really slow.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, do you have like a minute’s measure? Like what what do you consider really slow?
⏹️ ▶️ John I had I did time in a stopwatch, but I just did the math for the subtracting from my toaster. It’s like 30 seconds slower.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s like over three maybe four minutes like and I don’t I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know if this one is smart like my toaster because my toaster as soon as you hit toast it will tell you how long
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s going to take and how long it will take depends on the ambient temperature inside the toaster so the second piece of toast is
⏹️ ▶️ John way faster than the first one right that’s what’s making a smart toaster anyway this one has no readout
⏹️ ▶️ John like that yeah so speaking of the readouts like there’s not great choices
⏹️ ▶️ John for all the stuff that you touch and you see on this toaster like the dials buttons and displays there are no dials It’s all
⏹️ ▶️ John buttons. The the display is like one of those multi segment displays. It’s not a seven segment because
⏹️ ▶️ John it can make letters as well. So it’s not just the the numbers and stuff. And, you know, because it does. I think it has like
⏹️ ▶️ John the diagonal line for like the letter N and stuff. I don’t know. Maybe that’s a seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 segment display.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it lights up and it tries to do this scrolling stuff. Like when you hit toast, it says CNTR
⏹️ ▶️ John blank. RACK blank CNTR blank is trying to tell you center rack.
⏹️ ▶️ John And this is something people our age or my age anyway might not realize that modern toasters
⏹️ ▶️ John Have a movable rack and they expect you to have the rack in the middle of the toaster like height wise now at the
⏹️ ▶️ John bottom Of the toaster not at the top of the toaster directly in the middle Which looks really weird for people like me who grew up with the black and
⏹️ ▶️ John deck toaster where the rack was always at the bottom But it makes sense from an even toasting perspective because you want to be
⏹️ ▶️ John equal distance from the heating elements If you’re right against the bottom heating elements, the bottom is gonna cook way faster than the top
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, that little display doesn’t tell you anything useful. It doesn’t tell you how long it’s gonna take, doesn’t give you a countdown time,
⏹️ ▶️ John or it just says it’s, you know, toasting. And the buttons in the thing are membrane
⏹️ ▶️ John buttons, like the, I think this was brought up on a podcast I listened to recently, maybe it was on Back to Work, the Atari 400
⏹️ ▶️ John membrane keyboard. You guys don’t remember that, but do you know what I’m talking about when I say a membrane keyboard? Yeah. It’s like the
⏹️ ▶️ John little, like it’s like bubbles, bubbles of plastic that are, that are just like held up over the surface. The entire
⏹️ ▶️ John set of buttons that control this entire toaster are all membrane buttons and every time you press one it’s not feels like you’re pressing the entire membrane
⏹️ ▶️ John down like it’s it is not an expensive feeling thing the the rack
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t pull out when the door opens the the rack is flimsy the tray it comes with are flimsy
⏹️ ▶️ John if you want to use it as like a this is more like a miniature oven less like it you know I know they’re all like that yo
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a miniature oven but this performs so poorly on like toaster related things where it’s a frequently used appliance and
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going back to it again and again to cook lots of toast in the morning and to do stuff like that this is more like like what they show in the
⏹️ ▶️ John If you want to cook a chicken and put a probe thermometer in it, and it’s like a smaller version of an oven, then you’re not bothered so much by
⏹️ ▶️ John the button business. The UI isn’t terrible. The buttons, you basically don’t need to read the manual, you can look at the buttons and
⏹️ ▶️ John figure it out, but there’s lots of waiting for everything. You press a button and it says center rack, and you’re like, are you waiting
⏹️ ▶️ John for me to move the rack? Are you going to start toasting? And there’s no countdown to tell you when it has started. Very
⏹️ ▶️ John often I’ve had to open it up and stick my hand inside to see if it’s starting to get hot, because there’s no visual indication that it is
⏹️ ▶️ John doing what I asked it to do, pushing the little membrane buttons. Yeah, not a fan.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, how do you really feel, John?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not terrible. It’s a good little oven. Like, for cooking small
⏹️ ▶️ John things in an oven, but I would not use this as a toaster, and it’s just humongous and weird.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, it looks like in their picture, so you said they’ve selected a misleadingly sized
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chicken for the Hot picture there with the probe and then I see their bread showing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it’s a six slice toaster that is the the a very strange proportion that those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bread slices have where They look really small and thickly cut it’s like Texas
⏹️ ▶️ Casey toast or something
⏹️ ▶️ John You could not fit six slices of regular sandwich bread I think it’s a four slice toaster first of all you do have to have some space
⏹️ ▶️ John around the toast Otherwise, it doesn’t you know? Chris up around the edges and second of all I don’t think I could wedge
⏹️ ▶️ John three pieces of bread in this thing side by side side just regular sandwich bread, you know, it’s not it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, well, thank you cards against humanity for giving us that toaster extravaganza
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one more time. Yeah, yeah. All
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco right. So back
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to back to the follow up. Do we want to talk about what it’s like to build RAM? Oh, actually,
⏹️ ▶️ John right before that, hopefully, hopefully the final thing on the MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John limitations, I think all a lot of our questions will be answered when the
⏹️ ▶️ John new MacBook Pros come out. You know, because we assume they’ll all have USB
⏹️ ▶️ John type C connectors on them. And we also assume they’re not going to have one port. Right. So all of these
⏹️ ▶️ John questions about what it takes to have more than one port and how Apple handles these,
⏹️ ▶️ John the possible confusion of like, oh, can you power it from both of them? Can I put four monitor in
⏹️ ▶️ John because there’s four USB type C ports? that you know, like all of those things will be answered, not
⏹️ ▶️ John by seeing whether Marquez is right about the next version of this, this new MacBook having
⏹️ ▶️ John two ports, but by seeing what they do to the MacBook Pro. I mean, if they put one part of the MacBook Pro, it is
⏹️ ▶️ John not illuminating, but I’m assuming they’re not going to have one part of the MacBook Pro. And then we’re going to see all,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, all these questions about possible confusion. How does Apple answer them with a product that they basically have to have more than one
⏹️ ▶️ John USB type C port on it?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a fair point. But I think a lot of these, a lot of these Reasons really only apply like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with this with the chip set and stuff like that So well, I’d say about about half of the reasons that we’ve that we’ve been
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I just mean like the confusion reasons like oh you can’t charge for more than one or it’s confusing I don’t know what I can plug in
⏹️ ▶️ John and you know and and if it has more ports than it supports monitors because maybe it Supports three monitors, but that’s four ports. You know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s fair all right
⏹️ ▶️ John Finally RAM. Yeah last show I made an offhand comment talking about we were talking about think sky
⏹️ ▶️ John like and the process sizes and everything and I said that they when they come when they do a new process
⏹️ ▶️ John size they fab ram first because it’s very regular and it’s easier to fab than the complicated logic and a CPU
⏹️ ▶️ John and Joel wrote in to say that Either that information was always wrong or at the very least it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John true anymore because apparently fabbing ram is actually harder than pure pure logic chips these days because
⏹️ ▶️ John the the ram has more capacitors in it and Yield and reliability problems in D ram
⏹️ ▶️ John are almost always due to the manufacturing problems with the capacitors Which are very tightly packed and have high aspect ratios,
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever that means He wrote in a very detailed explanation that I found very convincing that that is not the case
⏹️ ▶️ John anymore. They don’t, in fact, the RAM is often fabbed one to two generations behind what logic is fabbed
⏹️ ▶️ John out these days. I tried to do some googling to see where did I get this idea that they used to fab RAM first on a new process
⏹️ ▶️ John size to get the kinks worked out of it, and I just did not know what the hell to google for. I’m pretty sure it’s true, but it could be
⏹️ ▶️ John knowledge from like the 80s for all I know. So so much has changed in silicon chip making
⏹️ ▶️ John these days that it’s probably just outdated info. If anyone does know what the hell I’m remembering, if
⏹️ ▶️ John I am remembering something, please do send in the link so I can see if I’m crazy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, I don’t even have to say, like, please only one person send that to us, because I know that the number of people who are going to send that is going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco between zero and one.
⏹️ ▶️ John Anybody who read Byte Magazine in the 80s probably knows it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Goodness. Okay, so a little bit about the new trackpad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple apparently has updated some apps to use it, including iMovie.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know which one of you entered this in the document, but I know almost nothing about this.
⏹️ ▶️ John I entered in that you didn’t read these stories like they updated like a bunch of their apps to you know, to support
⏹️ ▶️ John the new force touch trackpad. But the most interesting one I thought was iMovie
⏹️ ▶️ John where they updated it. So like when you’re dragging along the clips, you can like feel when you hit the end of the clip, like
⏹️ ▶️ John dragging the little slider along the you know, and I’m moving the show.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’ve heard that phrase, but like how, what are you feeling?
⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s the thing about this using Force Touch for the UI. This is a very, it’s almost a one-dimensional
⏹️ ▶️ John output device. All it does is vibrate. Maybe you can vibrate different amounts or different, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John different amplitude and possibly different frequency, but this is not, you’re not actually feeling
⏹️ ▶️ John anything. It is very, very limited. It’s kind of like, you know, when they added the rumble pack in Star Trek 64 or
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, it’s like, well, all it does is rumble. Yeah, you can kind of make it rumble different amounts, rumble
⏹️ ▶️ John very, you know, in bursts or whatever, but it is a very limited feedback device. All of it has to kind of be
⏹️ ▶️ John in simulating some kind of bump, right? So if you want to feel when you’re scrubbing a little cursor along a
⏹️ ▶️ John clip when you hit the end, it goes and like and vibrates slightly. I’m assuming
⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t tried this person. I’ve just read the articles. But this is a new I don’t know what you’d call it, a new
⏹️ ▶️ John not dimension, a new vector for output from the device. You’ve got visually you’ve got sound
⏹️ ▶️ John and now you’ve got it can make you feel something under your finger. not very complicated things,
⏹️ ▶️ John basically just some kind of vibration of a different, uh, you know, strength
⏹️ ▶️ John and timing, but that’s not nothing. And it’s the type of thing where like, you know, we all just assume forced
⏹️ ▶️ John touch will come to all the iOS devices and everything. And forced touch, by the way, on the watch, it’s only one way, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John What do you mean? You press on the watch of varying amounts and it senses how much you’re pressing. It does not press
⏹️ ▶️ John back on your finger, right? Is that?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, no, but it, it, see, this is why the, the nomenclature is so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey peculiar because the Taptic Engine does, um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey God, I just had on the tip of my tongue and I lost it, but it’ll tap you like, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John it vibrates on your wrist, but not in response to you pressing it. Right. It’s not like you’re scrolling
⏹️ ▶️ John through with your finger on the phone, like swiping through screens and the screen and the phone vibrates
⏹️ ▶️ John to make you feel like you feel something under your finger.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that’s correct, but I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, whatever the case in on the Mac books, they are trying to make it as a way so that you can
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of feel stuff on the screen in a very limited way. But even just in a very limited way, it’s like, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re going to put a horse to trackpad and everything, and this is so easy to do and they have a
⏹️ ▶️ John very simple API for it and it adds just a little bit of, it’s the type of thing where if you have any
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of tactile feedback, it is another, what the hell’s the word I’m looking for? another
⏹️ ▶️ John input channel dimension no it’s not dimension another input channel for your experience that
⏹️ ▶️ John once you get used to it being there as long as it’s not annoying the lack of it will feel wrong to you in the same way that
⏹️ ▶️ John suddenly if you had to use a Mac with closing your eyes or closing your ears and the same way they did things with sound like user interface
⏹️ ▶️ John sound it has to be done in a limited way if every time you scroll to a scroll bar or a
⏹️ ▶️ John scrolling view it made some whistle noise you’d be like all right turn that off immediately and
⏹️ ▶️ John I I think most Mac users turn off the thing that makes a sound when you’re done. Most sort
⏹️ ▶️ John of like people listening to this podcast, I think, turn off the Finder sounds that like crumple up paper when you empty the trash or make a
⏹️ ▶️ John ding when you copy a file from one place to the other. I don’t know. Maybe I’m crazy. Nope. I don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Neither do I. You
⏹️ ▶️ John leave those on? Yes. Oh my God.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know what you guys are doing. How many files are
⏹️ ▶️ John you deleting? It’s such a big problem. It doesn’t matter. Just like that. I don’t want that to happen on my computer ever.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, just empty the trash. Don’t make a noise. Saucy the Grouch coming out and singing me a song I don’t want to see it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s useful for me because usually because I don’t know does it do it I know the trash does but does it do it when you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco moving files if it’s just like a really quick immediate thing because I know it does it after long operations
⏹️ ▶️ John if you just copy goes doesn’t go ping I don’t even know what the sounds are but I immediately turn them off,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well It’s useful feedback because when you have like first of all somebody like me I very rarely empty the trash
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just forget to do it so when I do them to the trash It’s a pretty big set of trash in there And you know if I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing a big file move it might take a while so that the sounds provide feedback to tell you When it’s done. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway I’m getting as it has to be done in a Subtle matter like there’s a right amount
⏹️ ▶️ John of sound feedback beeping for things or you know something like that makes sense But maybe not have a sound every time you
⏹️ ▶️ John move the cursor You know all that type of movie sounds It has to be and so the same thing
⏹️ ▶️ John with a taptic feedback if you just get it when you hit the bump stops in A clip and I movie that’s fine But if you got it every time you
⏹️ ▶️ John scrolled it like vibrated under your finger in any app that would be too much So people will have to find the right balance here But
⏹️ ▶️ John I think once they do find that balance and once it comes to every Apple device It’s just a gimme that it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like this this makes the experience richer Even if it’s so incredibly primitive at all This is like a
⏹️ ▶️ John vibrate a little bit just think of like if you if your phone didn’t have a vibration motor in it How much a
⏹️ ▶️ John worse a device would be just that one little? Wiggly piece of metal inside it and how much they can do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I’m a little worried about developers overusing this for a while, and Apple also overusing this for a while.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I did finally get a chance to try one of these in a store this week,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I was very happy about that. I also initially didn’t believe that it was that trackpad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought, oh, this must be the old model, because it clicked. It does feel different,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s like a softer click. And I know it’s a setting, and I tried all the different… I tried
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole range of settings they have there. it is still a softer click.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s less clicky, less feedback than you got from the old one. But it still feels like a click
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me, and so it’s great. My worry, and when you do the deeper
⏹️ ▶️ Marco forced click, or whatever they’re calling that one, that one is interesting. It feels fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco My worry with that is that now we have three different kinds of clicks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s kind of like Swift, where it looks simple and it seems simple but it’s actually just hiding complexity.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not hiding complexity.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll talk about Swift another time.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right yeah we will. So you know it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco appears by the trackpad it appears as though you have one button right like the main click
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we all know in reality you have a secondary click a right click a control click whatever you want
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to call it the right click menu is often a very often does important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things so you often need to know about it. So in reality, you pretty much need to know two different clicks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The fourth click is now a third one. It’s not just a right click. I think it would be better if it was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just a right click, but it’s not. It’s now this third thing that like sometimes it does a dictionary pop-up,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sometimes it does quick look, sometimes it does other things. And so now it’s this third level of stuff that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have to either accidentally trigger and be surprised by, which is annoying, or that we have to learn,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is, you know, possibly tricky because now it’s this third thing or and by the way it’s completely inconsistent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as to what it does on different things or we have to ignore it in which case it’s a waste so like I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wish they would have just kind of made it a right-click and and just kept it simpler
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to be right click just because I’m I’m concerned about how much force it’s going to take to do a force quickly I wouldn’t want to do
⏹️ ▶️ John it as a routine it’s not much you know and that’s the other concern if it’s not much I hope it’s adjustable somewhere
⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s not much then I don’t want people who are slow in doing a click who are very deliberate in doing a
⏹️ ▶️ John click to accidentally trigger a force click because then you have to end up turning it off for them because like I’m they’re just kind of they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John like I tried to click on something but a dictionary definition came up it’s like well you just held it a little bit too long right and
⏹️ ▶️ John so that then you just have to disable it for them I’m hoping it if you’re able to disable it it would be better if there was like a delay
⏹️ ▶️ John and you could just crank the delay up so that the one time a month I have to do a force click they’ll just sit there and hold their finger down
⏹️ ▶️ John pressing for like three seconds and then the dictionary definition come up maybe happy with that like I can see someone getting used to that and using
⏹️ ▶️ John that because if you try to teach them command option shift D Nobody remembers it, whatever the hell that thing is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What it reminded me a lot of was on automatic BMWs, and I think most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey German cars are like this, but certainly BMWs, you can floor it, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then the pedal stops. And then you can kind of push through what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey appears to be the floorboard. And then there’s a little bit more depth of the pedal, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is, I think they call it a kickdown mode or something like that, which is you telling the car, no
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really freaking go. And that’s a lot what this force click, whatever it’s called, felt
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, you know, you would click and then push a little bit harder and then you would get a second click out of it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because he was telling me, does it tell the car to just downshift? Is that what it’s trying to do? In
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an automatic? Yeah, it’ll tell it to downshift as much as possible. So what does it do in a manual? I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have one in my car. Nothing? Right. It’s just, it’s just a placebo. Yeah. What I brought,
⏹️ ▶️ John I still have not tried the force click trackpad and I really want to, to but what it brings to mind to me of course is the and
⏹️ ▶️ John if John Roderick ever listens to this podcast he can correct me but he doesn’t so he won’t haha the
⏹️ ▶️ John the flight stick in the F-16 doesn’t move I believe as in it’s like force touch
⏹️ ▶️ John type thing it does not move around you just apply forces to it and that may seem like
⏹️ ▶️ John how can you like how can you fly a plane with a with a stick that doesn’t move at all let’s see if this
⏹️ ▶️ John F-16 or the F-18 perhaps it’s both someone will send us the the correction but it’s I imagine it’s like the force
⏹️ ▶️ John touch trackpad where you just get used to the fact that the thing doesn’t move. I don’t even think it has any haptic
⏹️ ▶️ John feedback. It’s just like that’s the way you do this thing by applying force to different directions to a thing that doesn’t move. So sitting
⏹️ ▶️ John there applying varying amounts of force to a glass surface that never moves and probably doesn’t even flex that much.
⏹️ ▶️ John Seems weird, but as long as there’s some kind of visual or tactile feedback
⏹️ ▶️ John that you are accomplishing what you meant to do, people just get used to it.
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So speaking of the Force Touch trackpad,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently there may be or may not be a missing three-finger drag. And not that I was planning
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on buying a MacBook, but I am thinking, like I said, of buying one of the other machines that may have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this trackpad. And I rely on three-finger swipes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do spaces, which I love. And I’m assuming, John, you hate because you hate anything
⏹️ ▶️ Casey moving anywhere on your computer.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not why I hate spaces, but I do hate them.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why do you hate spaces? Because if I don’t ask, I’m going to wonder the rest of the episode.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the animation is an annoyance, but I also could never get a workflow
⏹️ ▶️ John set up where I didn’t wonder on which screen a window. Well, I could never figure out, like, this is going to
⏹️ ▶️ John be the screen for x, and this is going to be the screen for y. Or if I tried to make a decision like that through using the system,
⏹️ ▶️ John I would inadvertently violate that by like accidentally opening a web browser in the session
⏹️ ▶️ John in the space that is not for that web browser like it just never I just don’t have a system for it so it
⏹️ ▶️ John just ends up making it making me have to look for stuff in two places and maybe it’s just me maybe it’s the way spaces
⏹️ ▶️ John work of course spaces have changed how they work over the years but it’s a simplification I really just same reason I don’t have two
⏹️ ▶️ John monitors I just want one big monitor and that’s it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I must say though I am surprised you know because you are such a such a window person
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and you’re so into spatial organization of your windows. It does surprise me that both you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want a second monitor and that also you don’t want more space with spaces.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like it’s the idea is I want everything to be within reach. And if I have to like do a gesture,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s also I don’t use trackpad like what Casey was saying. Like I think having that be only just when I
⏹️ ▶️ John use a very small laptop, I’m more likely to both go full screen and apps and use spaces because
⏹️ ▶️ John if you have that sort of swipe over to find something that is more natural, but I don’t use a trackpad on my desktop
⏹️ ▶️ John and so then it’s like control left or right arrow or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a pretty easy shortcut. I know but like it just makes it feel like things are farther away from my
⏹️ ▶️ John reach. It’s like putting things in a folder in the iOS home screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John It makes things feel farther away from me, not closer. I’d rather have them all on the same screen in a big jumbo pile than
⏹️ ▶️ John spread out on two different monitors.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this is the same reason why I can never use any mouse but the Magic Mouse because on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the magic mouse, it’s a two finger swipe to do the same action. And, and so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from what I’m being told, and from what I’ve seen in the chat just a moment ago, apparently,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s still possible, but it’s moved into accessibility preferences, which is weird. You saw
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it in the chat, did you? As well as the notes? Yes, the notes. Didn’t I just say
⏹️ ▶️ John I know, but like you were like, it may or may not be I, the notes say unequivocally with a link to a screenshot
⏹️ ▶️ John showing you where this option is in the accessibility prefs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I’m sorry I didn’t do enough homework, John.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know. There’s no, you got to look for the question mark. Question mark was there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Breaking news, breaking news. This is absolutely factual that this is in the accessibility
⏹️ ▶️ Casey preference pane. My sources are telling me that that is absolutely true.
⏹️ ▶️ John Your sources, anonymous tips are telling you, look at the screenshot in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow. Oh goodness. All right. Last piece of follow-up, port motivation Sent in
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this is another philosophical thing and it ties into Skylake, which we kept pushing off and we talked about
⏹️ ▶️ John its delay, but we’ll talk about a little bit later. This is from
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple’s website, I believe. The most efficient way to charge a notebook is by connecting to a charge report. As long as we’re going
⏹️ ▶️ John to include a port for charging the new MacBook, we wanted to make sure it was the most advanced and versatile one available. This ties into
⏹️ ▶️ John also Schiller during the keynote saying, you know, when’s the most convenient time to plug into a
⏹️ ▶️ John cable. And this is a quote, he says, that’s when you want to charge quickly. What do you mean charge
⏹️ ▶️ John quickly? What do you mean? The most efficient way to charge a notebook? Isn’t it the only way to charge a
⏹️ ▶️ John notebook charge quickly versus what is there a slower way to charge a notebook like that’s it you plug it in,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? So so people are saying this is like an indication of possible future inductive charging.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let me offer an alternative interpretation of those lines. I think you know, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the most efficient way to charge a notebook is possibly related to power efficiency. They
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made a point. Phil said it’s the most energy efficient laptop, I think, in the world right now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco At least that’s what they said. So it could just be… Because induction charging, I believe, is…
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We know it’s slower. I believe it’s also less efficient energy waste-wise. Feel free to correct
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me if I’m wrong. So it could be related to that.
⏹️ ▶️ John So you think it’s the opposite, where they’re saying other people may have wireless charging, but the most efficient
⏹️ ▶️ John way to charge a notebook is by plugging it in. Is that what you’re saying?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s very possible that was what he meant. And also, when you want to plug it in and charge quickly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco might have just meant like, you know, it to kind of reinforce the idea that A, the battery life
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is so great that you’re not gonna need to spend a lot of time charging this. B, you’re gonna not be plugged in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the time so that you’re gonna be unplugged and wireless and free, like using iPads.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And C, when you do plug in, he didn’t want to make it sound like a burden.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think that’s where those quotes were coming from. I don’t think they were foreshadowing a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco future of wireless charging notebooks, which I still think for the most part are not a good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea. My electric toothbrush
⏹️ ▶️ Marco charges inductively, and it can do that because it is sitting on the charger the vast majority
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of its existence. The vast majority of every day it’s on the charger, and it’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really low-power device. A laptop does not fit that profile. So for a laptop to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be able to be inductively charged, you have to be able to get a ton of current
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in there, you know, relative to most inductive charging systems. You just have to get a ton of current
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in there from what, some giant pad you stick it on? I mean, then you have to carry around a giant pad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like there’s, it’s one of those things that sounds cool in theory, but in reality,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think it ever will hit that for laptops, at least not for a very long time.
⏹️ ▶️ John This wireless charging business is and wireless stuff in general is part of Intel Skylake initiative
⏹️ ▶️ John that you know They always have some technologies. They’re pushing along with their new chips or whatever that aren’t really related technically
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s sometimes there’s some support in the CPU for something or other or the chip set But anyway, because this is part
⏹️ ▶️ John of their push. It probably means that PC makers are going to
⏹️ ▶️ John roll this out to some degree and Maybe they’ll be the ones to figure out like is this
⏹️ ▶️ John this, are we at a point where this is something that people want to actually use? Yes or no? I don’t know what to make a read on
⏹️ ▶️ John apples. Uh, choice of words here. All of your interpretations that you said Marco could
⏹️ ▶️ John be true. I think the one that probably seems the truest is the
⏹️ ▶️ John idea that they are not planning on doing wireless charger and they are preemptively poopooing the idea by
⏹️ ▶️ John saying, you know, plugging in is way more efficient. You don’t want that crappy wireless stuff. We’re all about plugging in. You’re going
⏹️ ▶️ John to want to plug in. Uh, and That’s why it’s like when you want to charge quickly,
⏹️ ▶️ John like that’s when you want to plug in a cable. I don’t know that I that interpretation rings the most true to me that
⏹️ ▶️ John they are because they know they don’t have wireless charging available for sale now and PC makers will
⏹️ ▶️ John and they probably if they don’t, if Skylight comes out and every PC maker says, oh, and also charges wireless here,
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. And Apple doesn’t have it. Apple will want to emphasize the fact that they don’t have it because it sucks like
⏹️ ▶️ John we could have made it, but it was not good enough for us. That’s why we don’t have it. Plugging in is way better,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Nobody wants to watch a video on an iPod size screen. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And like, but
⏹️ ▶️ John if it is, if they can get it to work better. And these are the other things. This is what I have. We’re skipping out of the follow up and
⏹️ ▶️ John jumping right into the topics here. Skylake’s tech that they’re promoting is not just
⏹️ ▶️ John wireless charging, but also this Wi-Di, which is not new, wireless display,
⏹️ ▶️ John and WiGig for faster, shorter range display, and WiGig hubs
⏹️ ▶️ John for USB and ethernet. So like, the idea is that you would just put your computer down on your desk, and there’ll be a
⏹️ ▶️ John box on your desk with an ethernet cable connected to it and a bunch of USB things going into it. And you don’t have to plug anything in,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the ultimate docking station. You just put your laptop down next to it and your monitor lights up with a picture
⏹️ ▶️ John from your laptop and all your USB devices that are there mount on the thing and you switch from
⏹️ ▶️ John Wi-Fi to ethernet. That is something that Apple would love that I think everyone would love. And
⏹️ ▶️ John unlike wireless charging, I don’t see anything stopping these things from being any worse or any particularly
⏹️ ▶️ John worse than having to plug in a USB or a Thunderbolt cable. As long as the bandwidth is there
⏹️ ▶️ John and the technology works, you know, that is an experience that office workers, I think, would love
⏹️ ▶️ John and would not want to go back to clipping their stupid PC into a docking station or even plugging
⏹️ ▶️ John in a single USB cable. It’s a nicer experience just to sit down at your desk, put your thing down, as long as it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John within five feet of that little box, you’re good to go. Like that seems like the future to me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I agree. Every time I think about a Thunderbolt display, I get jealous because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I still have a regular old Samsung display at home. We
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have a litany of random displays at work. And it would be amazing to just have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one thing that I plug everything into. And then that plugs into my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey computer or like you’re saying, John, maybe no plugs at all. It would be phenomenal. And I got
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to got to be honest, every time I see somebody just slam their Dell into one of these docking stations, and suddenly they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have Ethernet and displays and power and everything else. I get a little jealous, I really do.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, I would say like the no wires thing is so much more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco difficult and has so many potential issues and shortcomings. I would say the ideal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco scenario here is the one wire method, which we are now getting with USB-C.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I mean, I think we’re pretty much, you know, we’re there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Why do you think the no wire solution has problems? It’s like super short range. It’s like even shorter range than Bluetooth.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, because then you have the issue of powering it. Like, so you can have everything else except power, so then how are you powering? Are you powering with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of induction? Oh, no,
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, not the power I’m talking about. I’m talking about everything but the power. I’m talking about just- But that’s a big thing. I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s that big a deal because I think the signals, sending wireless signals to these devices is
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be any, it’s gonna be less power than Wi-Fi because it’s shorter range, right? So the power is not a concern
⏹️ ▶️ John for the transmission and receiving end on the computer side. And if you’re just worried about the fact that, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John now when I’m sitting at my desk, I’m not charging my Mac, that is the whole idea of like all day battery
⏹️ ▶️ John power. you just charge it at the end of the day. And I think that will that will cure it. It already has cured itself for the bigger laptops
⏹️ ▶️ John that even just want to talk about the 13 inch MacBook Air that gets, you know, you can you
⏹️ ▶️ John can work on it for an entire day. You do not have to plug it in. And if if they can get the new MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John up to that level, which now it’s probably borderline, but it’s close, then that’s not an issue anymore. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John your entire working, the only time you would plug it in is when you leave for the night. You know what I mean?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Yeah, I get that. That’s the dream. I think reality is going to be different for
⏹️ ▶️ John I think the modern laptops can make it through a day. I see people going to meetings, bringing the laptop around. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of people I know don’t plug it in during the day. If you have it at your house and you’re not going anywhere, then why not just plug
⏹️ ▶️ John it in? So maybe this isn’t attractive. But for business, all I see all day are people with stupid docking stations who are constantly
⏹️ ▶️ John plugging in or unplugging their thing to the display, the big one. Because when they sit at their desk, they don’t want to use the little laptop display,
⏹️ ▶️ John they want to use the big one, right? Or the multiple displays. constant plug on plug to be able to just plop it down
⏹️ ▶️ John and use it. Their battery will last an eight hour workday easy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, unless they have to run Photoshop or Xcode or Flash, you know, and like there’s a list that keeps growing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like the apps that make your CPU suck.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Photoshop. I don’t know if people are running back and forth to meetings with Photoshop all the time, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m also just seeing people who are typing all day. So maybe it’s just the bias of being around a bunch of developers. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ John That they’re, you know, the web browsing and typing all day. And it’s you know, they’re not even compiling code because it’s like the code is on the server.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right. It’s just a bunch of SSH windows or whatever. Anyway, I think the wireless
⏹️ ▶️ John display and wireless hubs like that are very attractive to me,
⏹️ ▶️ John even for at-home use. Hell, I would use it with my gigantic 50-pound Mac Pro just
⏹️ ▶️ John so I wouldn’t have to have all these stupid wires going all over the place. Like, that is a luxury that I’d be willing to pay for. Just not to have
⏹️ ▶️ John to, for my USB hub, if that could be connected with Y-Gig and I don’t have to figure out how to fish all these wires all over
⏹️ ▶️ John the place, I would buy that for a computer that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco never moves. Yeah, but then you’d have to upgrade your Mac Pro, which would never happen, so.
⏹️ ▶️ John know, I just attached some crazy ass dot. Hey, I’ve got PCI slots for you, I can just put it in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure that this technology will come in PCI Express desktop slot format.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, there’s plenty of room in there. Who knows, I could have a whole daughter card hanging. I could put a Mac Mini inside my Mac Pro’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just use that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You could fit many Mac Minis inside your Mac Pro case. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just gotta get rid of these two optical drives. There’s plenty of room in there. Oh my God. Our final
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. Is there anything else on Skylake or do we want to jump backwards in the notes to
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s a quickie left over from last week. I think we can jump backwards to that briefly. I put that in there to remind
⏹️ ▶️ John me this is kind of like a. On the eve of the Apple Watch
⏹️ ▶️ John release to the general public, Tim Cook’s first big new product
⏹️ ▶️ John category that you know that everyone cares about is the first big test sort of getting out from under
⏹️ ▶️ John the shadow of Steve Giles. He’s no longer the steward of the company taking control over it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I started thinking back on like what What is Tim Cook’s Apple look like and how does
⏹️ ▶️ John it differ than Steve Jobs’s Apple? And one particular way that I’ve seen a lot of people bringing up lately and that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John been thinking about as well is what is Tim Cook’s philosophy about
⏹️ ▶️ John the model lineup versus Steve Jobs and a lot of people talked about all the model lineup is getting more complicated
⏹️ ▶️ John and Steve Jobs love to have a simplified product line and Tim Cook,
⏹️ ▶️ John even though he goes on shows and says all of Apple’s products can fit on this table. And people post
⏹️ ▶️ John pictures of the Apple website and say, just look at all these freaking options. It’s not like Dell.com yet, but there’s a lot more products and
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot more options. Granted, a lot of that has to do with the fashion and the watch bands and selling the laptops in different colors.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not really that big. But what made me think about it the most was
⏹️ ▶️ John when they introduced the new MacBook, they didn’t get rid of the errors. In fact, they revised
⏹️ ▶️ John them. And the history of Tim Cook’s Apple of introducing
⏹️ ▶️ John new models but keeping the old ones around, both as part of the overall iOS strategy, but also for
⏹️ ▶️ John the Macs and stuff, a Steve Jobs style move would be to introduce the new MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ John and get rid of the errors. And why would he do that? Because the errors are
⏹️ ▶️ John crap. Even if they were upgraded, they wouldn’t be as good. This new one is the future of laptops. This is what
⏹️ ▶️ John you should be using. This is the replacement for the errors. You know, we’ll sell the inventory we have, but this is the future.
⏹️ ▶️ John And people would complain, because they would say, but, but, but, it doesn’t do what the errors do here and that, and there’s no 11-inch model,
⏹️ ▶️ John this 11 inch model had Thunderbolt and all these things. And the Steve Jobs philosophy was always when
⏹️ ▶️ John they come out with a new thing, everyone get on board. The new thing is the new thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t even look at the old thing and I can’t even look at that old computer. It was so
⏹️ ▶️ John to me that we just need to get it out of the line. And Tim Cook’s philosophy is not like that. Tim’s Cook’s philosophy,
⏹️ ▶️ John as far as I can tell, is much more pragmatic to say, although we think this is the best one and people should
⏹️ ▶️ John buy this, there’s no harm in keeping the other ones around until we have replacements. In fact, we can
⏹️ ▶️ John revise them to make them a little bit better. And yeah, they’re probably gonna be phased out, but in the meantime, let’s just keep selling them. Basically,
⏹️ ▶️ John if people are buying them, keep selling them. Why are we taking away models that people wanna buy and trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John force them to buy the model that we think they should buy, right? And that I think, if I’m even close
⏹️ ▶️ John in this, and I don’t have like huge reams of supporting guys, and it’s just a general feeling from seeing the different
⏹️ ▶️ John model lines, is one of the first things I’ve seen that is a difference between Tim Cook’s
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple and Steve Jobs’ Apple, but besides things like obviously their demeanor and the
⏹️ ▶️ John charitable contributions and all that other stuff that’s kind of extracurricular, like talk about the products and the product lines themselves.
⏹️ ▶️ John Tim Cook’s Apple seems much more like a regular business in that they’re not
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna leave money on the table but pulling products that people still wanna buy, whereas Steve Jobs’ Apple would pull products that people still
⏹️ ▶️ John wanna buy, basically for philosophical reasons, because he can’t stand to look at the old ones because the new one is better
⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s just what he wants to do. And that is the strongest thing I felt about
⏹️ ▶️ John that Tim Cook’s Apple differs from Steve Jobs’s Apple, I think in the history of all the little things that
⏹️ ▶️ John we’ve ever talked about. And I want to know if you guys like, do you feel that as well? Or am I crazy and Steve Jobs
⏹️ ▶️ John did exactly the same thing as Tim Cook is doing, and I’m just misremembering?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I think this seems different during my tenure
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as an Apple fan. I wonder if this has to do with
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tim being a supply chain guy and not fearing that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not to say that that’s what motivated Steve, because I think you’re right. I think Steve was motivated, motivated by
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is the new hotness, you will like it or you will screw off. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think with Tim, it’s it’s a little like you had said, john, well, what’s it gonna hurt?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think it’s a lot of well, I know, it’s not gonna hurt anything, because I used to do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this. And and I know how the supply chain works. And I know that this we can handle this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, does that sound reasonable?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not like that’s applied. It was like bean counting, but that’s that’s a pejorative. Like it’s not,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you know, oh, we can make a few
⏹️ ▶️ John extra cents here because like Apple did keep old models around when they had to. People in the chat room point out like they would
⏹️ ▶️ John they would often say this model will still be available, but only for education purposes. Like Steve Jobs wasn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John totally out of touch with the needs of the customers. If there’s some big, important customer base, which used to be education
⏹️ ▶️ John back in the day, was saying like, well, education really needs this. So we’re going to keep selling it, but we’re only going to sell it to education
⏹️ ▶️ John rather than selling it to everybody. and that, you know, I’m sure there have been cases where Steve Jobs did
⏹️ ▶️ John not immediately wipe out the new model with the old models with the new, but when he could,
⏹️ ▶️ John you could tell that, I mean, just you felt from him that he wanted
⏹️ ▶️ John you to like this new one as much as he does, and part of helping you along that path would be to take away the old one, so
⏹️ ▶️ John your only choice is the new one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I think this is kind of a combination of factors, you know, part of it is probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Tim Cook method or Tim Cook’s principles coming up, where this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the way he chooses to run things. I think, though, this did start under Steve.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It might have just corresponded with the rise of Tim Cook’s authority and power in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the company, and as Steve started having more severe medical issues in his last few years,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as Tim ran more of the company. So it might have been that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco overlap. I think it’s also a sign of Apple just maturing as a company. They now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have way more customers than they did before. They have products that span much larger price ranges.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The old small product lines were all expensive. Now they have products
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that start at moderate prices and go into expensive. So they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have more product lines, and also a lot of the technology really has slowed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco down. I mean the phones keep advancing pretty aggressively, although even that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco starting to slow down a little bit. But if you look at the Mac books, or the Mac in general,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco advancement in PCs has been, and I’m including Macs in that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco advancement in PCs has been pretty slow in the last five or ten years. The
⏹️ ▶️ Marco SSD transition was the big thing that happened. And Retina’s happening, you know, mostly, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happening more slowly. Well, both of those are happening slowly. But like, once you go Retina and SSD,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those are two big jumps. And then like CPUs have kind of gone nowhere in the last few years. They’ve made very small
⏹️ ▶️ Marco improvements at best. You know, everything’s kind of like, not at a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco standstill, but certainly slowing down. And so, you know, hardware
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was perfectly fine a few years ago is still perfectly fine today. The difference
⏹️ ▶️ Marco between the performance of the MacBook Air versus the performance of the 15-inch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco matters a lot less today from what most people do. So there’s all these, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just seems that the hardware has gotten so good that you don’t need to be in as big of a rush to get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rid of the old stuff. And the new stuff isn’t so dramatically much better that everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is forced, or everyone is strongly encouraged to buy it instead. there’s still room in the lineup. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so by keeping old lines around or by keeping more lines around than the original
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steve Four Boxes thing, I think it allows them to serve way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more customers in a way that doesn’t necessarily hurt anybody. It’s not really that confusing for the most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco part. Occasionally there’s some weird overlap, but usually that’s resolved within a couple years.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just think for the most part, this is just a sign of both the PC industry and
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if it’s a maturing thing, but like the because I can’t decide which
⏹️ ▶️ John is which is particularly better, which which shows more maturity because this the type
⏹️ ▶️ John of thing of keeping products around is just like lots of business always does like it’s not it’s not a new phenomenon. It’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John a sign of a young or an old company. All companies do it because it’s basically smart from a business perspective. Like people want to give you money
⏹️ ▶️ John for a product, keep selling it to them until it doesn’t make sense for you to sell it to him for you. It’s not enough people buy it like the 17
⏹️ ▶️ John inch MacBook or whatever or whatever it was called when it went away, didn’t go away, I’m assuming
⏹️ ▶️ John for a philosophical reason, it went away because not enough people buy them, right? That’s why the Mac Pro didn’t get updated for a really long
⏹️ ▶️ John time. Volumes can make you discontinue a product line, but when you have something like this where the
⏹️ ▶️ John new MacBook comes out, and it basically
⏹️ ▶️ John obsoletes all the other, the air. It should have just been called, people expected it to be
⏹️ ▶️ John called an air and wipe out all the air, but it was like, this is a discontinuity in the same way that the first air was
⏹️ ▶️ John a discontinuity the first unibody was discontinued in their laptop design. It’s clearly, this is the spearhead
⏹️ ▶️ John of the new design philosophy for laptops. Like, there’s been generations where they just get revved, revved, revved,
⏹️ ▶️ John and then retina, and then, you know, then this is like, I would say it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, aluminum, aluminum unibody, first air, you know, aluminum, and
⏹️ ▶️ John then I guess the first air was the first unibody, so that’s two in one. And then, and then this, and this is like
⏹️ ▶️ John totally removing ports, slim at all costs, retina, like has
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen of the pros, but the power and size of the Airs.
⏹️ ▶️ John And like, it’s such an overlap. Like why keep, you understand keeping like maybe an old thing around or a cheaper
⏹️ ▶️ John thing around or the non-retina one around, cause it’s cheaper. But like the overlap with the Airs is insane with this
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. Like, it’s like, what do you, it doesn’t send a clear message. Are you saying this is the
⏹️ ▶️ John future of things, but you can still buy these other ones? Why would I buy these other ones? When you go into an Apple store, How will
⏹️ ▶️ John they explain to you to choose between the, I guess it’s like the crappy screen versus non crappy screen
⏹️ ▶️ John but why keep around the one with the crappy screen? Like I totally believe, and again, not this makes it good or bad,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I totally believe that Steve Jobs would have gotten rid of the errors. Like he would have sold out the inventory
⏹️ ▶️ John and the new MacBook would have come out and that would have taken the spot in the line. And for a while their line would not be correctly
⏹️ ▶️ John proportioned but eventually they would all convert and everything would be fine. Instead, the Tim Cook model line
⏹️ ▶️ John philosophy is, of course you keep selling the errors. Eventually we won’t, eventually they’ll go away. Obviously, we’re not going to keep
⏹️ ▶️ John revving that line, probably. Or if we do, they’re going to transform to be things that have one or zero USB-C ports
⏹️ ▶️ John on them, right? No one expects the next revision of the Ares to still have Thunderbolt ports
⏹️ ▶️ John on them, right? They’re going to all look like the new MacBook. And so will the Pros, eventually, in terms of the port
⏹️ ▶️ John layouts and everything like that. That is the new design philosophy. And it’s just weird to see them coexisting. I think the
⏹️ ▶️ John Jobs philosophy is bolder and sort of expresses the intent
⏹️ ▶️ John of Apple, like their vision of technology, out into the world in a way, in a stronger
⏹️ ▶️ John way, in the same way that it annoys people because you take away their products, it sends the message to everyone else that like,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is our vision of the future and we are leading, right? And then Tim Cook way is more sort of,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is our vision of the future, but we understand if you’re not ready for it yet, we also have another product that’s actually pretty darn good
⏹️ ▶️ John and you can still buy it. Eventually they’ll go away. It seems more
⏹️ ▶️ John chill and it’s less exciting to me as an observer, it’s probably better
⏹️ ▶️ John for the business. Business-wise, short-term, I don’t know if it’s better long-term, if taken to its logical conclusion,
⏹️ ▶️ John where you just sell models forever until people stop buying them. Because I think people will continue to buy models
⏹️ ▶️ John that they quote unquote shouldn’t for a really long time. And sometimes you have to sort of herd them along to the new model
⏹️ ▶️ John by taking away the old model at the same time you bring in the new ones.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, I think maybe a lot of it might have to do with how much of a compromise in certain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways the new one is versus the old one. The greatest example, I think, of Steve killing off an old product
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the new one came out was the iPad or the iPod Mini going to the iPod Nano.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was like the canonical example of like, and he even said on stage, he’s like, the iPod Mini was like our best
⏹️ ▶️ Marco selling iPod ever and we’re discontinuing it today.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco people would
⏹️ ▶️ John have kept buying the Mini if they kept selling it. It came in more colors, people loved it, the form factor and everything. Even though you’d
⏹️ ▶️ John look at it and be like, who the hell would buy this thing when the Nano is out, even though the Nano Scratch is like hell, right? But
⏹️ ▶️ John who the hell would buy this thing when the Nano is available? people would keep buying them because they came in, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John yellow and pink or whatever. They came in gold. It was the first gold thing, right? And like,
⏹️ ▶️ John by making that decision, it wasn’t just bold and showing their vision of the future. It was forcing
⏹️ ▶️ John the world to move on faster than they would have otherwise, which is upsetting to some people. But
⏹️ ▶️ John it has, you know, it’s the advantage that Apple has that they can sort of herd their customer
⏹️ ▶️ John base along at a faster clip than everybody else because they’re not afraid to take away products the customer still Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, but but in that example of the iPod mini to nano like the the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco waves the nano was worse than the mini Or more limiting were very small it had less capacity,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but not by a whole I think it was like six gigs versus four something like that So it like it was it was it was a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco relatively small drop in capacity. It was a first-gen product. I got
⏹️ ▶️ John scratches all over it That’s the whole thing if you’re saying this is the bold new vision And if your first gen
⏹️ ▶️ John project has some sort of problems like oh, well, I’ll just buy the old one Oh wait, I can’t, they took that one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco away. Well, but for the most part, you know, I don’t think people are doing that kind of calculus of like, oh, well let me just, you know, wait till
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the problem surface and buy the old one. Like, I don’t think anybody except you puts that much thought into that. But like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was an easy transition to force because the new one was a lot better
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in some really critical ways. And the old, and it wasn’t, and the ways in which it was worse than the old one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or more limiting were fairly minor. Whereas with, when you look at something like now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new MacBook versus the MacBook Air. The ways in which it is worse
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or more limiting than the old one are pretty big still. Like it’s pretty substantial.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like the port differences are massive. The keyboard might be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco significantly worse. We don’t know yet, we’ll see. And then in these new ways, it is way better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is thinner, lighter, somewhat longer battery life than the, at least
⏹️ ▶️ Marco compared to the 11 inch probably. It’s also, although unfortunately, It’s also probably a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slower CPU wise. So, you know, there’s this one, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s, you can look at the, you know, the easy transition
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the iPod mini to nano, that’s a no brainer. The MacBook Air
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to new MacBook, I think forcing that on people, not leaving that old option behind until some of the stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shakes out and matures, that would be, I think, a lot more damaging, especially because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook Air line, maybe not the 11, I don’t know, but probably the 13, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably their best-selling computer.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s the Tim Cook reason not to get rid of it, because people are still buying a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco ton of them.
⏹️ ▶️ John And like, Steve Jobs would be like, I don’t care. Again, the iPod Mini, people are buying a ton of them. I’m thinking
⏹️ ▶️ John of even a more boring one, like when the, I forget what you want to call it, but the iMac with the big metal
⏹️ ▶️ John arm, with the first flat panel iMac, remember that one? Yeah. Right. So the previous iMacs with the CRTs
⏹️ ▶️ John with all the pretty colors, people would have kept buying them too, especially if they were slightly cheaper or got slightly cheaper when
⏹️ ▶️ John the thing came out. Or apparently we’re not going to get to again this week. But the Apple TV is
⏹️ ▶️ John another example. Do you think they’ll keep selling the $69 one when the new one comes out?
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe. I think they’ve already told us they will. It’s a Tim Cook kind of thing to do, right? But a Steve Jobs thing is,
⏹️ ▶️ John this is the new Apple TV and the old one is gone. This is the new iMac and the old iMac is gone, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I believe the whole thing everyone’s jumping on about how they said the Apple TV’s starting at $69. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think that tells you right there.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think you need to see that to know that a new Apple TV is come look if they’re gonna do the Apple TV as a product they have to revise it sometime
⏹️ ▶️ John and when they drop that when they drop the price on the old one of course they’re gonna yeah
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no but I’m saying like that I think indicates that you know it’s not gonna this isn’t gonna this isn’t gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be for sale at this price and then for you know six months or whatever and then be discontinued I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re gonna it’s just gonna be the bottom of the line it’s gonna keep being sold forever we’re gonna have a five look they’re still selling the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco freaking iPod touch that less updated what 2012 I know I know yeah
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s this type of this type of philosophy that the Tim Cook’s Apple philosophy
⏹️ ▶️ John and maybe a tail end of Steve Jobs’s Apple philosophy was you keep selling
⏹️ ▶️ John products as long as people keep wanting to buy them within reason like you
⏹️ ▶️ John know eventually not enough people want to buy them or there’s no place in your product line for it but
⏹️ ▶️ John if there’s still a place in your product line we’ll just you know like the iPod touch why the the iPod touch still even exist? Well, I
⏹️ ▶️ John mean, they don’t sell a lot of them, we see their sales number, it’s not as if tons of people are selling them, but enough people are buying
⏹️ ▶️ John them, that it’s like, well, why not? Whereas, at this point, I think Steve Jobs would have
⏹️ ▶️ John lost faith in the iPod touch as a product. It just canned it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, they’re still selling the the non retina MacBook Pro with this with the DVD ROM drive.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know with the optical drive again, because like optical drives, we’re taking the optical drives away soon, they’ll be gone from all our products,
⏹️ ▶️ John except this one thing will linger on forever because we know that there’s somehow enough people who want to buy it with an optical drive.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not just education. Education is another thing, like corporate sales or education where it’s like we demand this and we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John a big customer. They’ve always been able to, as we said in the past shows, Apple used to make specific
⏹️ ▶️ John products just for education. That’s how important education was as a customer. Now they’ll just keep all the ones around.
⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re just having the one with the CD drive in it or having non-retina
⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook still for sale or having the air still for sale, it’s. It’s not so
⏹️ ▶️ John much that it confuses the line, but it is definitely not like Apple clearly speaking
⏹️ ▶️ John out and saying, this is the future. These are our products. And I think Tim Cook’s table where he keeps all the
⏹️ ▶️ John products is going to have to be a pretty darn big table pretty soon.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, that that that that big glass watch box takes up probably half the table now. You know, the watches you can put
⏹️ ▶️ John pile, but you got to have all All those different varieties of MacBooks and the big
⏹️ ▶️ John iMacs and I guess you can put the two Mac Pros.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Does each color of the iPads and everything, does each color count? Although if you line iPads
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up like a bookshelf on their ends and just stick them between.
⏹️ ▶️ John Exactly, you just stack them. Yeah, they’re stackable. But yeah, I guess you could stack the laptops too. I think that’s a strategy.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the 3D strategy. You start stacking. All of our products fold flat except for I guess the iMac and
⏹️ ▶️ John the tubes we can stack like cordwood. You can get them on the table someone should do that someone
⏹️ ▶️ John who had too much money Should say how big a table do you need to put all the products Apple sells in it? And I mean
⏹️ ▶️ John all of them I want all the colors all the bands for all the watches all the different models of iPads with different
⏹️ ▶️ John Wi-Fi And and you know the colors for the iPads too anyway. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John that was my thought on them on the model I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we good Let’s before we forget since it’s since it’s been an entire show plus
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an entire hour since the Nintendo thing was announced and we still haven’t talked about it. Let’s talk about the Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so John, who did Nintendo sell to?
⏹️ ▶️ John Nobody sold to anybody. They did a partnership deal with DNA which is spelled capital D lowercase
⏹️ ▶️ John e capital N capital A instead of DeNava which
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco would be better.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve been saying Dina in my head. I guess that your way makes a lot more sense.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s DNA and it’s a partnership with them. They’re a company that makes mobile games and this
⏹️ ▶️ John is basically Nintendo saying we don’t know how to to make mobile games. We
⏹️ ▶️ John need mobile games quickly. We don’t have time to learn how to make mobile games. Therefore,
⏹️ ▶️ John this company that we’re going to partner with will make mobile games for us using our intellectual
⏹️ ▶️ John property. I would imagine that Nintendo is still in a position strong enough to
⏹️ ▶️ John make this partnership the way they usually do, which is you will make a game for
⏹️ ▶️ John us, but we will tell you that your game is crappy and tell you how to change it. Sort of like when Retro Studios
⏹️ ▶️ John made Metroid Prime. Oh, studios to make a metro prime, right? Yeah, they’re making metro prime and then Miyamoto
⏹️ ▶️ John comes and tells them how their game sucks and how they have to change it. And they repeat that process over and over again
⏹️ ▶️ John until Miyamoto is satisfied. And then you get to release what you call Metro prime. And it’s like, we want you to do
⏹️ ▶️ John the part that you’re good at, which is we have no idea how to do this mobile development stuff. But I would imagine
⏹️ ▶️ John that Nintendo is still in the same kind of position apples in with its suppliers. We are
⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo will tell you when you’ve done a good enough job. This partnership deal heavily favors us. But it is
⏹️ ▶️ John a partnership deal. This is not a strength move. This is a weak, a sign of weakness, a sign
⏹️ ▶️ John that we, we, we need money. Our products aren’t selling because
⏹️ ▶️ John we made bad choices when we designed them. Um, we need games, we need revenue. We can’t ignore
⏹️ ▶️ John mobile. We also can’t make mobile games on our own. I think partnering is probably a good idea because
⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo has shown they’re fairly incompetent at all the parts of making games except for the part where you play the
⏹️ ▶️ John game. Oh, like networking, friend systems, the equivalent of Xbox Live type
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, app stores, trying to buy digitally by games from Nintendo is like pulling teeth. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John have they never, you know, the joke is always like that all Nintendo’s employees are never allowed to use
⏹️ ▶️ John any other game system, nor are they allowed to have smartphones. They’re probably not also allowed to use the Internet,
⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s why they have no idea how the rest of the
⏹️ ▶️ John works. So, you know, if you find yourself entering friend codes or trying to buy something from the E shop
⏹️ ▶️ John and going through 8000 steps or trying to transfer your stuff, from one of Nintendo’s platforms to another and taking
⏹️ ▶️ John a million steps for that involving swapping SD cards or Realizing that your games are tied to your hardware
⏹️ ▶️ John not to use your account Which is just mind-boggling and it’s wrongness and craziness and being out of step
⏹️ ▶️ John with the rest of the industry All that leads me to believe that they made the right move by partnering
⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s not a strength move. It’s kind of a sad situation and I don’t I’m not quite sure what’s going to come of it A partnership
⏹️ ▶️ John deal doesn’t mean anything. They haven’t announced any games all they said is all of Nintendo’s intellectual property is up for
⏹️ ▶️ John grabs and Hopefully some fruit will come from this in the future They’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John also said by the way, they’re not porting their games, which means this company is going to be making new games So don’t expect
⏹️ ▶️ John insert your favorite Nintendo game here is going to appear on your mobile phone because it’s not they are absolutely not porting
⏹️ ▶️ John Any of their games which means they have to make new games and those new games I think are not going to be what Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ John fans want. It’s not like oh, I would love it a 2d side-scrolling Metroid on my phone
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking that’s not what you’re going to get. I’m thinking you’re gonna get something more like the Pokemon shuffle game
⏹️ ▶️ John They made for the I think it was for the 3ds. That’s like it’s a simpler Mobile
⏹️ ▶️ John style focused game using Nintendo intellectual property, but it is not Let me just
⏹️ ▶️ John take what I think of as a typical Nintendo console or handheld game and shove it onto a mobile phone because a That wouldn’t work
⏹️ ▶️ John and be that’s just not what this partnership seems like it’s about to me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think I don’t think that’s a big of a problem as you as some people are going to say
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because Nintendo’s fans are already buying their stuff. This is not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to attract Nintendo’s fans to suddenly start playing Nintendo games on their smartphones because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re a Nintendo fan you already have one of their systems or at least one of their systems and you know you’re already buying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all their little plastic accessories and everything and you’re fine. This is trying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would assume this is trying to attract new customers who don’t who aren’t yet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nintendo fans and this I think is going to be a real uphill battle for them I I really don’t see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this succeeding I mean I could be wrong I’m wrong about a lot of things but I think this is going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be tough because you know the risk of the games being crappy or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at least nothing special is very high you know as you said the end it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sounds like Nintendo is basically you I mean they bought a chunk of DNA,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you know they’re serious about it, but I Think this these are basically gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be DNA games that happen to include Nintendo characters in them
⏹️ ▶️ John well That’s where I was getting into Miyamoto coming and scolding them because their games not good enough because I imagine
⏹️ ▶️ John like this partnership Whatever the deal is like they buy 10% of the company And it’s like the partnership Nintendo is
⏹️ ▶️ John the senior partner here by a lot and so they have a lot of control over how
⏹️ ▶️ John like because they’re saying you can use any of our IP I think Nintendo is still gonna be very protective of his IP
⏹️ ▶️ John and not inclined to release a game that’s terrible and I think you’re right about like this is aimed at
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s money that’s been left on the table saying look these people are never gonna buy a Nintendo console but they would totally willingly
⏹️ ▶️ John buy a $1 iOS game featuring Mario why are we not
⏹️ ▶️ John taking their money it’s not even like we expect them to go out and buy a 3ds or Wii U it’s just like they will
⏹️ ▶️ John buy this iOS game it won’t cost us that much to make it, why are we not making it for them? It’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John like we’re saying, Oh, we’re gonna make this game instead of instead of a new real Mario game, we’re gonna make this game instead of a new console
⏹️ ▶️ John metric. No, they’re gonna still make all those games. But why are we not taking these people’s money? Or
⏹️ ▶️ John looking at the nicer way? Why are we not giving them some cute little, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John mobile game featuring our characters to play? Why not? What what is you know, and the reason was because
⏹️ ▶️ John we have no idea how to do that. And we’re really bad at making that those parts of the games, but we don’t need
⏹️ ▶️ John to build of those expertise in-house, we don’t need to distract our engineers from their working on a
⏹️ ▶️ John next generation handheld slash console project. We can just partner with this.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then we can drive this partner, who is the junior partner, to make sure that they
⏹️ ▶️ John are respectable or intellectual property and release a game that is, at the very least, a good game
⏹️ ▶️ John and is competent. Is it going to set the world on fire? Is it going to be great? It maybe won’t even sell as much as Crossy Road, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John think they’ll be profitable, right? because DNA, like you said, already has the ability to make
⏹️ ▶️ John these games. The intellectual property is the real valuable thing, and that’s what’s gonna make someone buy this game versus
⏹️ ▶️ John any other random game with less recognizable characters. And the secondary effect is possibly it could have the effect
⏹️ ▶️ John of scrubbing at least the iOS store clean of the million games that have pictures of Mario and Zelda in them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so the idea that people will value these games higher because they have Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ Marco IP in them. I’m not sure that’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John given. Oh, it’s a given. They will buy them more. I don’t know if they’ll value them higher, but they will be more
⏹️ ▶️ John likely to buy them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, some people will be more likely to buy them, but I would bet the vast majority of people who buy games
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on iOS have never heard of Mario. They don’t, like, they don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ John Everybody’s heard of Mario. More people heard of him than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mickey Mouse. I would bet that the average age of iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco game buyers is low, first of all, lower than 35. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lower than us, basically, by a significant amount. And that if the people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re trying to attract are new fans who don’t already have Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ Marco allegiance, they’ve probably never owned a Nintendo system.
⏹️ ▶️ John not that they’re new fans, it’s that they are people who, it’s like the same way that you’re aware of Mickey Mouse, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John you never go to Disney World. It’s like, I’m never gonna buy a Nintendo console I’m an Xbox guy. But I
⏹️ ▶️ John heard all those Nintendo characters and if they’re and I will buy a one dollar game and I’m more likely to buy
⏹️ ▶️ John the one dollar game that has Mario in it. In fact, the Mario one dollar game is more likely to be advertised to be featured
⏹️ ▶️ John for my friends to have bought it. It’s just it’s it is the intellectual property drives this.
⏹️ ▶️ John And as you said before, it could drive it in a way that it makes people buy crappy games. I’m hoping the games at least be reasonable,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s it’s not like you’re trying to convert them. And it’s not like you’re going to find people who’ve never heard of Mario. You’re finding people
⏹️ ▶️ John who, yeah, I’ve heard of Mario, but I’m still never gonna buy a Nintendo console, but you will tap the button for 99 cents.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Also, you forget Marco that consoles, at least the way I define them,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey aren’t necessarily tied to a TV. I mean, there are gazillion handheld Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey devices out there. And as far as I knew, even reasonably
⏹️ ▶️ Casey little kids today are still using like 3ds and things like that. I don’t know, john, you could probably tell me better
⏹️ ▶️ John than 3ds has been more successful than than the Wii U, which is not saying much because the Wii U has been very honest. And the
⏹️ ▶️ John rumors of the next generation project there, these are old rumors, so who knows what the hell’s true now, is the idea
⏹️ ▶️ John that they would be unifying their platform so that they are not so different to develop for, whether that means they’re gonna release
⏹️ ▶️ John something that works as a handheld system but can also hook up to your TV, or whether it just means that they’re gonna use the same underlying
⏹️ ▶️ John technology so there’s not this gulf, so they have to develop a game twice. Because in the same
⏹️ ▶️ John way that desktop and laptop performance has been becoming closer, now handheld
⏹️ ▶️ John performance and at least in the Wii U’s case, you can imagine Nintendo making a single…
⏹️ ▶️ John writing a game that runs both on their TV-connected console and on their handheld one, whether those are two separate devices or
⏹️ ▶️ John not, basically because handheld consoles have good enough graphics now that you wouldn’t be embarrassed to see them
⏹️ ▶️ John on the TV and that was… that has, you know, many years ago that was not the case. They’ve been converging towards
⏹️ ▶️ John each other. So yeah, that has little to do with this. I think this has entirely to
⏹️ ▶️ John do with with what about the people who are never going to buy or play any of those type of games? They
⏹️ ▶️ John they only will they will only ever buy games on their phone. Why are we not selling them something?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right? No, I’m responding to Marco saying nobody knows who Mario is in so many words.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think that a lot more people know who Mario is even today, even young people than you would suspect.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Another thing that I don’t think we’re considering is I’ve got to imagine that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if Nintendo released an app a game in the App Store, that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple will fall all over them and they’ll be featured and there’ll be all sorts of App Store marketing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I suspect that you will definitely see that all over the App Store.
⏹️ ▶️ John I just saw a screenshot today on Twitter of a game called Apple watch it, which is a great name,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple space watch space it exclamation point. And the icon is link as in Nintendo’s
⏹️ ▶️ John intellectual property. That’s the icon for the app, by the way, shooting an arrow and the game I think is like you using
⏹️ ▶️ John using link in the game to shoot an arrow off the head of somebody. So it’s got the Apple Watch like, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, keyword trolling. And it’s got Nintendo Electro property in the freaking icon and in the game.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that is like on the app store right now.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah. Underscore tweeted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John earlier. Yeah. I was
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I know it’s not Apple’s responsibility to police these things, but. No, it is. You would think that Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ John would would wake up like Nintendo can hire one person all day just to go through the iOS store
⏹️ ▶️ John and just send cease and desist letters and like, you know, Apple will take them off the store in a second.
⏹️ ▶️ John they used to. They will. They will take them. All they need, it’s bureaucracy.
⏹️ ▶️ John All you need is your own bureaucrat to communicate with their bureaucrats and bureaucrat-ees and everything else.
⏹️ ▶️ John It would be great if Nintendo could get the sweet deal that music
⏹️ ▶️ John and video copyright owners have with YouTube, where YouTube does the policing for them and just takes down
⏹️ ▶️ John anything that looks like it might be copyrighted in any way. way it like preemptively takes it down
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well that’s partly because I mean YouTube was a platform that was created and thrived on completely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ripping off everything from everybody I mean I know it’s different now but that’s like that’s its origin
⏹️ ▶️ John but but the fact that they’ll do it preemptively and on behalf like Apple system is the one actually that
⏹️ ▶️ John makes sense it’s like look it’s not our job to police your intellectual property if you see someone violating your intellectual property tell us and even
⏹️ ▶️ John then Apple will favor will assume that you are right and take it down I think but like YouTube
⏹️ ▶️ John the big thing is like Who is it who does the every frame of painting channel on YouTube
⏹️ ▶️ John which is great by the way He puts up videos that you know that talk about scenes from films
⏹️ ▶️ John and of course You know all the videos have scenes from different movies, but it’s fair use because it’s like he’s using it to talk about film,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? He’s not putting the entire movie up, but there is a scene from the movie in the video and his videos always get taken down They just
⏹️ ▶️ John automatically get taken down for copyright violations And then he has to go through this bureaucratic process where
⏹️ ▶️ John they tell him he has to take it down and he has to fill out a form and say it’s fair use and then they deny him and you go back and forth and back and
⏹️ ▶️ John forth eventually they Go back up after like three days a week a month It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John terrible that like you are presumed guilty and have to prove your innocence and it’s not even proving because it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John just a big machine Sending out like we notice that you’re using copyrighted stuff. We take you down immediately
⏹️ ▶️ John If you think this is an error, please fill out these 18 forms and fight with this record company Mewtwo studio or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John until they give up like and the movies do we really cared they can just say We’re taking this all the way
⏹️ ▶️ John to court And then you then they win because you can’t afford to hire a lawyer But for the most part it’s just a matter of filling out forms repeatedly
⏹️ ▶️ John to get YouTube to bring it back up But anyway what I’m getting as the Nintendo should at least have somebody looking at the friggin
⏹️ ▶️ John star and filling out the forms, right? Instead of just letting them linger there because they you know this this shows
⏹️ ▶️ John this was a Nintendo’s blind spot Why are you pretending mobile games don’t exist on phones?
⏹️ ▶️ John Why can’t you put something there? Which is very different than the idea Nintendo you should stop making
⏹️ ▶️ John consoles, you should stop making handhelds, you should stop making games that work on consoles and handhelds and concentrate
⏹️ ▶️ John entirely on making games that work on mobile devices. Which is not what they’re doing but the fact
⏹️ ▶️ John that they have to go do this it’s basically for the survival of the company it’s to say there is money available
⏹️ ▶️ John out there that we’re not taking and we need to take it because we’re not doing that hot because nobody’s buying Wii
⏹️ ▶️ John U’s and not many people buying 3DS’s. That’s kind of sad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but I don’t, I mean, we’ll see. Again, I’m wrong a lot, but I don’t think this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is gonna solve that problem.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they still have, I mean, their root problem is still the same. You need to, you know, again, as I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John said many times in the past, if there exists a market for devices that mostly pay games, it is possible
⏹️ ▶️ John for Apple, or Apple, for Nintendo to do well in that market. It’s not guaranteed,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it is possible, because they have all the skills necessary to do well in that market, minus a few
⏹️ ▶️ John that they can kind of learn if they get their act together. But if we ever get to the point
⏹️ ▶️ John where there is no way to do that, where you cannot be a company that sells things
⏹️ ▶️ John that mostly play games, they’re screwed because they can’t feel the phone platform. Or they’d have to go Sega
⏹️ ▶️ John and say, all we do now is make software for other people’s platforms, iOS, Android, whatever else are
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And that worked out great for Sega. Exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so it’s, you know, but right now, There is definitely a market for home consoles. The Xbox one
⏹️ ▶️ John PlayStation four doing well. Nintendo is not doing well because they made a bad product that people don’t want. So,
⏹️ ▶️ John they have a second chance? Is there going to be a next generation of consoles? Will there be a PlayStation five and Xbox?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what the hell they’re going to name the next one. That’s their problem. Whatever. If there is a next generation of products,
⏹️ ▶️ John Xbox 10. Yeah. Why not? Why not just skip to 10 like Windows? Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ John may have a second shot at this. Right. And that’s the next thing. Are they going to make the same stupid mistakes with
⏹️ ▶️ John their with their next shot? Hopefully not. Hopefully they will learn from their past mistakes.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s that’s their root problem. It’s like this is kind of keeping the boat afloat and maybe getting some
⏹️ ▶️ John money and maybe, you know, try. I mean, you can imagine, like if they do this well, like there can be interactions
⏹️ ▶️ John where there’s an iOS game that interacts with the game that is available on the Wii U for like companion apps type of things. They do that for
⏹️ ▶️ John like Mac apps where there’s a companion iOS app or websites for this companion iOS app. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a potential market as well. But this is all just kind of like, let’s keep the lights on and fund
⏹️ ▶️ John our next thing. But the real, the real proof of whether Nintendo is going to go the route of Sega
⏹️ ▶️ John or be resurgent is, is there an X generation of consoles? And if there is,
⏹️ ▶️ John does Nintendo do a good job? And the rumors are that Nintendo is, is because the Wii U is doing
⏹️ ▶️ John so terribly is going to be like, uh, yeah, yeah, we, you will make the games. You said we were going to make for it, but we’re kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John in a hurry to sort of shuffle the Wii U off the stage and show you our next thing. like that, they will be the first ones out of the gate that the
⏹️ ▶️ John PS4 and Xbox one will go link go on many, many years after Nintendo has already revved
⏹️ ▶️ John to do the next generation console. But we’ll see if they still have to make a good console. They still have to make good games that people want to
⏹️ ▶️ John play. They have to make the right choices. That’s that’s what the future of the company is staked
⏹️ ▶️ John on. Not so much the steel.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So before we go, I have curiosity. If you had to pick
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one existing piece of IP to be made into an iOS game? What would that be? And I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the obvious answer is Zelda because I know you love it so much, but what I’m not sure if perhaps you think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something else would translate better.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think Zelda would translate particularly well either. The problem is all the intellectual property that I really care about
⏹️ ▶️ John from Nintendo. I like because of the games they were featured in and most of those games are console
⏹️ ▶️ John games and console games tend not to to translate well to a touchscreen or to like
⏹️ ▶️ John iOS type gaming. You know, there’s a reason that the genres that do
⏹️ ▶️ John well on iOS are what they are like, they’re not the same genres that do well on
⏹️ ▶️ John consoles or on PCs because it’s just a different play environment, like the infinite runners, tower
⏹️ ▶️ John defense, board games, all those genres work on a tiny little touchscreen.
⏹️ ▶️ John None of those genres of the genres that, you know, Metroid or Zelda or even Mario
⏹️ ▶️ John like platforming doesn’t work that well on on on Hall Hells either like it’s the the
⏹️ ▶️ John genres that become popular on each platform become popular for a reason so I think there’s no particular
⏹️ ▶️ John intellectual property that I think would translate really well maybe Star Fox
⏹️ ▶️ John because there are some sort of flying around games but honestly I think it’s it’s more like what Marco was
⏹️ ▶️ John saying only not quite the cynical version where it’s like they’re going to make a game I’m not going to say this is a silly example
⏹️ ▶️ John like make a match three game but put Nintendo characters in the little things right that’s that’s the silly cynical
⏹️ ▶️ John example like not that bad but similar some kind of infinite runner some kind of tower
⏹️ ▶️ John defense game some kind of board game with a bunch of Nintendo faces on things but actually done well because
⏹️ ▶️ John all those genres can be done when well look at Alto’s adventure it is kind of like an infinite runner but if
⏹️ ▶️ John you do a really really good job with it it can stand head and shoulder above the other games that do
⏹️ ▶️ John similar things right same thing with all the other genres that are popular on mobile.
⏹️ ▶️ John My ties to Nintendo Intellectual Property have almost nothing to do with the characters and everything to do with the games they appear
⏹️ ▶️ John in because those games have been exemplary. That is why Sonic is not valued anymore. No one cares
⏹️ ▶️ John about Sonic if he repeatedly appears in crap games. Then you’re like, you know what, Sonic sucks. Sonic doesn’t suck, the games
⏹️ ▶️ John featuring him suck. Why do people care about Mario? Who cares? He’s a friggin’ plumber, he’s not a, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John because they make awesome games. They respect that IP so much that they do not allow Mario to be,
⏹️ ▶️ John again, he’s in a real Mario platform game, they polish the hell out of that game. That’s why, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, Super Mario 3D World and Mario Galaxy and everything, that’s why people still love Mario because they know when I
⏹️ ▶️ John see him in a game and it’s a real Mario game and it’s a platformer, it is going to be an amazingly good
⏹️ ▶️ John game. Whereas when you see Sonic in a game, you’re like, why even bother? It’s going to be crap. And it is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worry for Nintendo is you know you keep saying which I think is a good argument that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know that they as long as they can do well they can still do they can still survive as long as there is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a market for dedicated console things basically my worry
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that the things that they are not good at what you were saying earlier you know like all the social
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and online and app store kind of thing if you look at what the people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who still buy consoles today what do they value, what’s important, what succeeds
⏹️ ▶️ Marco among the kind of consoles that sell well today, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that like Nintendo has really suffered in so many of those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco areas that matter a lot today and so much of what Nintendo
⏹️ ▶️ Marco used to have a total monopoly on which was like like kind of nerd high quality and casual
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gaming, so much of that has moved to mobile and so what you’re left with on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the console side is people who like first person shooters a lot and people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who really want online play and online app stores and stuff like that. So like the console market still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco exists, but it has taken itself in a direction where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nintendo really sucks at, and the parts of gaming that Nintendo’s always been very good at,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think a disproportionate amount of those have moved to mobile for casual gaming.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s part of the DNA deal actually, the part I highlighted in this final thing, like Nintendo has
⏹️ ▶️ John tried at various times to implement what I think is everyone like they should just ask their children. How
⏹️ ▶️ John do online accounts work? How does that work when you
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco buy things under
⏹️ ▶️ John an account? It’s like, listen, dad, you have an account where you buy things attached to the account. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John it. No matter what device you buy, you sign in with username. All the stuff you bought is there. That’s how it works everywhere
⏹️ ▶️ John else in the world, right? So having, you know, they got rid of this club Nintendo membership thing
⏹️ ▶️ John and this Nintendo network thing, and they’re replacing it with a sane online account system
⏹️ ▶️ John like iTunes, like everything else you can possibly name like Netflix, like whatever, like all your stuff is attached to your account.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s how it works. DNA is going to give that to them because of course DNA like every other company that’s on
⏹️ ▶️ John the internet has such a system and can make one for them probably to their specifications probably to the blah blah blah but
⏹️ ▶️ John they’ve proven that they can’t make that thing and part of this partnership deal is you know how to make one of those things right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Make one of those for us and you know okay they will do it so they’re they’re at least recognizing the parts
⏹️ ▶️ John where they’re weak and trying to dig themselves out of it. I think Nintendo can live
⏹️ ▶️ John on in the same way that sort of indie game studios live on. Like, you don’t have to make Call of Duty to be successful.
⏹️ ▶️ John There is a market for sort of, I call them artsy-fartsy games on the in-house world, but like
⏹️ ▶️ John games that connoisseurs appreciate. People who appreciate the fact that a
⏹️ ▶️ John really good Zelda game is not the same as just any random adventure game, or that a really good Mario game is not the same
⏹️ ▶️ John as just any random platformer that Nintendo is still the best in the world at these few things that it
⏹️ ▶️ John does. They’re just bad at the surrounding stuff. And when you’re playing games like even though
⏹️ ▶️ John you know Mario Kart, you’re driving the cart most of the time. Mario Kart 8 is an amazing game when you’re driving.
⏹️ ▶️ John Every time you’re not driving, it is not an amazing game because they even can’t even handle doing the menu systems
⏹️ ▶️ John that well. Same thing with Super Smash Brothers. Same thing with the new Mario games.
⏹️ ▶️ John They are amazing when you are playing them. Nintendo is still the best in the world at doing that type of game.
⏹️ ▶️ John Can they survive with just that skill? They need ancillary supporting skills, but I think
⏹️ ▶️ John they can survive, like, you know, people make fun of like a lifestyle business where like you’re just making enough money
⏹️ ▶️ John to support yourself and your whatever. I think Nintendo could be like a lifestyle console business. As long as anyone’s buying
⏹️ ▶️ John any kind of consoles, if the only game’s available on them, this is practically the case with the Wii U.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like first party Nintendo games and like five other games that you could possibly care about. That’s basically what it is in the
⏹️ ▶️ John Wii U and the Wii U was not successful, but it didn’t put the company out of business. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo could could live on past sort of the they could probably live on past the extension and dedicated consoles
⏹️ ▶️ John just just continuing to sell to the people who appreciate how much better the best in those games
⏹️ ▶️ John can be. And you’re right that there’s not as many of those because most people either want casual games or
⏹️ ▶️ John they want Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto. And you know, Nintendo is not going to make Grand Theft Auto and they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to make Call of Duty. And you know, for the iOS games, they’re going to take a little
⏹️ ▶️ John bit of the money, but their their expertise is in those type of things, you know, and I think
⏹️ ▶️ John we talked about this before I think to like Miyamoto is not going to live forever. What happens to the company
⏹️ ▶️ John and his the people he taught will not live forever, like when the generational turnover happens,
⏹️ ▶️ John do they have enough shared culture Nintendo to continue to do to continue
⏹️ ▶️ John to make games like the ones they have made in the past several decades at the same
⏹️ ▶️ John level they’ve been making them when all the people who originally sort of brought them to that high are gone.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Automatic, and Backblaze,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will see you next week.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. It was accidental. It was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you’re into
⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can follow them
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s. That’s Casey list
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a RCO a R M N T Marco Armin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey SIR AC USA Syracuse. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental. They didn’t mean to.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Accidental. Tech podcast.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So do we want to talk about this top gear? fracas kerfuffle
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sad guys I’m sad yeah I mourned the passing of Top
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Gear last night by simultaneously with underscore watching
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the race to Verbier I forget the episode number offhand I think it’s a series 5 at episode 8
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the race across Japan I totally forget the episode
⏹️ ▶️ Casey number there But we watched it simultaneously and we’re I messaging back and forth like a couple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of children watching I don’t know some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Stupid children show anyway, I can make a win Harry
⏹️ ▶️ John miss a reference, but I think Margo hasn’t seen that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey either. I haven’t either Hi But it’s sad and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know It’s frustrating because a lot of people like CMF in the chat or are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seem to think that any time you bring up up Top Gear,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey their purpose in life is to explain that Clarkson
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a jerk and he should rot in, you know, whatever the opposite of heaven is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in your particular belief system. So inclusive. Yeah. And so I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey understand that perspective in that I don’t understand why this is binary.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why can’t I think that Clarkson is a jerk and yet
⏹️ ▶️ Casey enjoy the TV show that he is a part of? Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey why does it have to be all or none? And regardless of the answer there, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fact of the matter is, I like Top Gear. You can think I’m a jerk
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’d like. You can think that I’m supporting things that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Clarkson stands for, which I’m not really sure how you make that leap, but fine, go ahead. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the end of the day, I loved the show. I still love the show. I’m sad that it’s ended.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Maybe something will come from the ashes and maybe there will be something even better, but I’m sad that it ended.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m pissed off that Clarkson decided that a lunch or dinner
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever it was, was enough to punch somebody over and ruined it for all of us, but it is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what it is. And I’m sad.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think I got to explain why people can’t square
⏹️ ▶️ John the idea of you liking the show, but agreeing that the guy’s a big jerk. Because like everyone
⏹️ ▶️ John has their limit of what you’re willing to support. Like Mel Gibson is another example, like, you know, anti-Semitic remarks,
⏹️ ▶️ John sexist remarks. Like, I think that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pretty different level, but yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John Right. But I’m just saying, like, what I’m trying to get at is that there’s a continuum. him, like at a certain point,
⏹️ ▶️ John the person you’re a fan of supports an idea or does something
⏹️ ▶️ John that puts them over the line. It’s like an actor is actually it’s a even bigger line because it’s like, well, I can
⏹️ ▶️ John still enjoy the movie they’re in because they’re not them. They’re being an actor, right? Whereas Clarkson is like essentially himself.
⏹️ ▶️ John He’s not playing a role in, you know, in a formal sense, right? So there’s more of a close connection.
⏹️ ▶️ John So like, just, just put it this way. What would Clarkson have to do for you
⏹️ ▶️ John to not be able to enjoy him on top gear anymore? obviously there’s a line that, you know, what is your
⏹️ ▶️ John personal line? And the reason why people can’t square it is that he crossed their personal line, possibly crossed it already with, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, racist remarks when they were in Thailand or whatever. Right. And this just confirms their
⏹️ ▶️ John previous beliefs. And I find that uncomfortable. We talked about this on an episode of The Incomparable
⏹️ ▶️ John with like or author authors like Orson Scott Card, who, you know, everyone loved Andrew’s games, but
⏹️ ▶️ John think his, you know, terrible bigotry about homosexuals is just you just can’t stand.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like can you like the book Ender’s Game while also hating the guy who wrote it and again I think authors it’s easier to do
⏹️ ▶️ John that too because they’ve made this work of fiction You love the work of fiction, but you hate the guy Clarkson is the guy
⏹️ ▶️ John on the show So it’s probably pretty the line for him to cross for people not to be able to enjoy the
⏹️ ▶️ John show anymore It’s just much closer for than it is for authors and actors and stuff And I just feel like he’s crossed the line for a lot
⏹️ ▶️ John of people and not even with this one event now They’re just you know gleefully saying he crossed the line and I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John like him already and he know he got what he deserves So that’s why I think and you know, he obviously hasn’t crossed your line
⏹️ ▶️ John and not saying that your line is wrong. Other people’s lines are right, but that’s why so many people are surprised
⏹️ ▶️ John by the fact that you can still separate the two because I think it is much harder for people to separate the two when
⏹️ ▶️ John the guy is the guy on the show, you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that that makes sense. I don’t know. It was just very frustrating because when when the BBC
⏹️ ▶️ Casey finally made their statement and they said, you know, we’re not going to renew Clarkson’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey contract and I had tweeted about, oh, you know, that sucks. I’m sad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t recall my initial tweet having been, you know, this is wrong. I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say that, that he didn’t deserve it. I just said this sucks. And this is sad. And oh, my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey God, I mean, welcome to the internet, Casey. But everyone came out of the woodwork was like, Oh, he’s a jerk. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey friggin deserves it. Oh, how could you support this dill hole and blah, blah, blah. It’s like, dude, can
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they say dill hole? No. But, you know, can I just be sad for like 30
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seconds that my favorite TV show is ending? Is that really that egregious to the entire internet?
⏹️ ▶️ John egregious is not that you’re sad that the show is ending, but that it was still your favorite show despite this guy being on. Like that’s because
⏹️ ▶️ John it was over the line for them. And they’re saying, how could you even still watch the show in good conscience? And so it’s not so much that
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re sad that the show is ending. It’s like the whole other rest of the time when you were enjoying the show. That’s the time they thought you were
⏹️ ▶️ John a bad person because you’re still enjoying and watching the show and still supporting the show because you know, like that’s that’s what it was.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then this is just making them come out and remind you that the whole time you were enjoying the show, they thought you were a bad person
⏹️ ▶️ John because they hate him so much.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you know what? Then I’m a bad person. I mean, whatever. I really don’t care if people want to judge me because I like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a television show about cars, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, and you know what? And I’ve also been tweeting about this because I feel similarly to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you, that I was always enjoying the show. I’m very sad the show is ending.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do recognize that Clarkson ended the show. Like, this was his fault. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not denying that at all. Like his actions here were way over any
⏹️ ▶️ John line. And like the last in a series of things. It’s not like this is a one-time incident, you know what I mean?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not that familiar with all the behind the scenes drama that has happened in the past at the show. I’m really not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve watched the show, but I have not followed the controversies. I wasn’t even aware there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco were so many controversies until this started coming up. But looking at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco his general attitude on this show, The style with which he says things, the style with which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he does things. He is like a lovable ass on the show. Like that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco his character on the show. I don’t know what he’s like in real life. Is his
⏹️ ▶️ John character also a conservative, racist bigot on the show, or is that just a side effect of the actual person?
⏹️ ▶️ John Like that’s where, you know, like it’s one thing to be a curmudgeon is the other to secretly think they harbor regressive
⏹️ ▶️ John notions that they know enough not to voice publicly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And so with that, again, I don’t know. I don’t know the guy personally. The way I interpreted it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco over time, as I was watching the show, and he would say off-color things,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I interpreted it as pushing the line or stepping over the line
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for comedy purposes. And so comedy’s a tough thing. Like when you see, when you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to define the appropriate relationship between comedy and sensitive topics
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or hurtful topics, it’s always a blurry line, and different cultures
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and different groups of people define that line differently and what is over the line
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and what is part of humor. Everyone defines that differently. And so I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by me and Casey being so surprised, I think, at how many people just really hate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Jeremy Clarkson, I was shocked by that. Yep. Because I’ve always interpreted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way he talks on the show to be for the sake of good humor and even when it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a little bit over the line, a little bit uncomfortable, I’ve always assumed that that the intention there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was to to provoke a laugh to be funny and not to be actually mean-spirited
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to intend harm.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think there’s a different political dynamic in the UK that we don’t understand like their their
⏹️ ▶️ John left and right range is unfamiliar to us mostly because all of them are way to the left of the crazy right-wing
⏹️ ▶️ John here in America but I think we’re not connected to that dynamic
⏹️ ▶️ John and therefore I think we don’t have a good read all we see is Jeremy Clarkson on the show,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? And we don’t have a read of like, because like, I don’t know about you, but the only time I ever saw
⏹️ ▶️ John him is on the show. Like, I didn’t see interviews with him off the show. I didn’t see him doing press. I didn’t see him
⏹️ ▶️ John like, whereas I get the impression that the people who watch the show in the UK
⏹️ ▶️ John know him from outside the show. They see him on other programs. They know about him as a person.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so the things he says in the show, rather than seeming like just being cheeky,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like that is the tip of an iceberg with which we are all too familiar. Right. And that he represents
⏹️ ▶️ John some continuum on the political spectrum that I know his support of candidate X shows me, you know, like.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t I don’t know his background like that either, but it’s so clear that when the people that don’t like him see
⏹️ ▶️ John him, they they they see the whole person and we just see the part that’s on the show and the part that’s on the show is necessarily,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, trimmed down and can be interpreted, especially by, I think, an American audience
⏹️ ▶️ John or nine. So it’s not familiar with the political climate there as just being witty and interesting. And as someone pointed out in the chat
⏹️ ▶️ John room, the terrible racist right wing bigots in the United States are usually not as charming as Jeremy Clarkson. You know
⏹️ ▶️ John what I mean? Like, I don’t know if that’s just a divide like, you know. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like I don’t know him either. And I think I was
⏹️ ▶️ John watching Top Gear for reasons that are different than both of you. I like the part where they talk about cars and review cars.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You must have hated the show. Yeah, I did not
⏹️ ▶️ John like almost any other part of it. But but I, you know, I enjoyed the show, but I knew I know
⏹️ ▶️ John absolutely nothing about any of those people outside of the words they said on that television program. And even just within that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, with the few incidents that Clarkson is not like I find myself
⏹️ ▶️ John not hating him, but it’s kind of like, you know, the Bill Cosby stuff like, You wish
⏹️ ▶️ John you didn’t know this because now your opinion must necessarily be drastically changed for somebody
⏹️ ▶️ John that you previously You know just liked as an entertainer and now like it starts to cross the line
⏹️ ▶️ John for me We’re like I can’t separate this person the entertainer from the things he does
⏹️ ▶️ John Elsewhere, you know I mean
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, yeah, and that’s that’s you know like the like the the big disappointment for Top Gear fans
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that He really did something really bad here, and and you know now like his
⏹️ ▶️ Marco his image is tarnished for everybody and He he killed the show
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like he ended the show by his action so like that sucks
⏹️ ▶️ John It seems like he’s a troubled person to it. Don’t you think like that’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean anybody who would who would assault someone over over a meal at the end of a shoot I don’t care. What kind of bad day.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’ve had that’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a problem, but that’s a deeper problem It’s not like he’s just has temper tantalizing. I don’t know what his deeper price the whole
⏹️ ▶️ John thing We don’t know what his deeper problem is. But what are you so upset about? You’re rich. You get to drive fancy cars all the time. Like, obviously, there is some
⏹️ ▶️ John deeper problem here with him personally or with the show dynamic or whatever it is.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not about the stupid, you know, food, right? That’s not what the fight is about. And so that makes
⏹️ ▶️ John me sad, too, because it shows that, you know, whatever it is that’s troubling him is deeply troubling him because
⏹️ ▶️ John the stakes were high here. He knew he was like on, you know, final notice from all the other stuff. That’s like he
⏹️ ▶️ John should have been on his best behavior. And yet whatever the hell is bothering him came up to the point
⏹️ ▶️ John where it caused that. And that’s just like. Yeah, I don’t admit, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, you expect like, oh, when I’m rich and famous, I will be happy. And then you see all the movies that say, well, actually,
⏹️ ▶️ John when you’re rich or famous, you’ll be sad because you’ll be lonely and isolated. It’s like, don’t you want to think that it works out for somebody?
⏹️ ▶️ John Can somebody have a dream job and be ridiculously wealthy and drive around in a Lamborghini or Ferrari and actually be happy?
⏹️ ▶️ John Apparently not. Jeremy Clarkson. Well, you still hear about those people.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I mean, I think Hammond seems like a reasonably happy guy. I think May.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know anything about them either. You’re right. They do. I just I don’t know. I don’t you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like I don’t need to know celebrities lives or whatever. You just want to you want to believe the fantasy that you want to believe that like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know anything about your life. I don’t want to know anything about your life. But I believe you are well adjusted and have a happy life because
⏹️ ▶️ John what you do for a living looks really fun. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And the thing is, I agree with you, John, that that maybe my line is just further away than other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey people’s. That doesn’t mean I’m right. It doesn’t mean I’m wrong. But my line hasn’t been crossed yet. But the thing is,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, if you watch the first time they go through America, where they went from Miami to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey New Orleans, they completely eviscerated all of America.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And they seem to go out of their way to find some of the worst portions of America.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And as an American, I found that really hard to watch really hard
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because they antagonized Americans for the purpose of getting them to show really disgusting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey behavior, but you know what that’s part of America and That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey unfortunate, but that is part of our country and there are people in our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey country are fellow citizens that act that way. And just because I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it doesn’t mean it’s not a representation of America,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it may not be the most fair representation of America. I think there are a lot of Americans that are a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot less stupid as they portrayed us all to be they obviously make fun
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us always for be for us being fat. And, you know, don’t forget
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cheese, we put cheese and everything and cheese. Yeah, we we put cheese on everything. And Gil, those,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey those jokes, they kind of sting, but good God, they’re jokes on a TV
⏹️ ▶️ Casey show about cars. Like maybe again, maybe my line is just further away than other people’s. And again,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you said, John, and like you said, Marco, I don’t get to see the other parts of Clarkson. The
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only parts I see are the parts on the show. And yes, he’s offensive. Yes, he’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an ass, but whatever. Like that’s, that’s the shtick. That’s the whole
⏹️ ▶️ Casey idea. That’s why he was
⏹️ ▶️ John there, but it’s not it’s not just being an ass like I think I’m not trying to push you closer To your
⏹️ ▶️ John line, but I think I think your line is probably the same as us. It’s just that you are not You are not forced to
⏹️ ▶️ John confront The realities of the things that this person really believes which I’m not saying you should be forced to confront
⏹️ ▶️ John and you should not seek this information out, but if you truly knew it was in the heart of hearts of many people that you admire you would
⏹️ ▶️ John admire them less and And things that come out that reveal like that, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever regressive notion that someone actually holds really dear about whatever people
⏹️ ▶️ John of a different race, about women, about anything, you do not want to be confronted with that. You, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John making jokes, being a jerk, being silly, being cheeky, doing that, you know, using stereotypes for humor,
⏹️ ▶️ John fine. But then saying, but really, I believe in my heart of hearts that women can never be president because they’re too emotional.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like if someone like, no, seriously, I really have to have a serious conversation about why women should never be president. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t have that conversation with someone you admire and not be like, just just crumble and just go, oh, God, I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know. And now it’s like, oh, no, can I? You know, that’s that’s not that I think he’s, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, I’m just making this up, like make up a bias that you would that if someone really, truly believed
⏹️ ▶️ John it and deep in their fiber, you’d be like, you just check out and you’d be like, man, just
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t. I can’t where you are going. I cannot follow. I now know too much about what is in your heart
⏹️ ▶️ John and it is terrible. And then you have to like, try to reconcile, like, if you wrote a really good
⏹️ ▶️ John book, can I still enjoy the book? If you were an actor in a movie, can I still enjoy the movie? But if you’re on a TV show
⏹️ ▶️ John as yourself playing yourself, boy, that’s tough.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, and somebody brought up in the chat, it’s like Adam Baldwin. I think that the actions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that he has taken are deplorable, disgusting and terrible. And him
⏹️ ▶️ Casey somehow energizing the whole gamergate movement and coining the term that is revolting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me. I find that absolutely disgusting, but you bet your butt I love Firefly and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s a tremendous television show and I love the serenity movie like I again maybe my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey line is different from others but
⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s different don’t you think it’s different with actors I feel the same way he’s terrible but I can still enjoy
⏹️ ▶️ John his role as an actor and like the only place it comes gross is like if he’s like an actual criminal or murder
⏹️ ▶️ John and you don’t want to do anything that could possibly give him money right but that’s not you know he’s just he
⏹️ ▶️ John holds terrible ideas right but can you can you still watch and enjoy Firefly
⏹️ ▶️ John I still can despite sharing your opinions about Adam Baldwin I can still enjoy the show because he’s an actor
⏹️ ▶️ John could I enjoy a talk show where he interviewed celebrities I could not that’s that’s the difference I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can’t even make that distinction like to me like if I find out that an actor is like really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pretty severe jerk I can’t even really enjoy their their stuff they’re acting in anymore
⏹️ ▶️ John it helps that he helps that he played a jerk in Firefly too I gotta admit it does help that if he was the hero
⏹️ ▶️ John of Firefly if he was Mal it would be a big problem but he’s not he’s Jane and Jane
⏹️ ▶️ John is pretty terrible on the show so it kind of like matches up you know what I mean like it wasn’t really acting he really is terrible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco goodness so anyway back to top gear you know I think you trying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to close it out here, anyone who’s watched the show on a regular basis
⏹️ ▶️ Marco knows that it was probably pretty close to the end anyway. Like every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new season that came out, or series in British parlance, every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco new series that came out I was always a little bit surprised like, oh they made another one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like every time that they announced there would be another one that was always like pleasantly good surprising news
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I was always just assuming that the current season was always going to be the last season. And a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it was getting worse over time. Like a lot of the bits were getting more and more contrived.
⏹️ ▶️ John More contrived? Is that possible? I have a… I know you don’t share my hatred of the bits, but God, I hate
⏹️ ▶️ John them so much. I understand that Casey enjoyed them. I don’t begrudge anyone their enjoyment. It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John not my… That’s not why I was watching the show.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s the thing right there, John, is that people begrudge Marco and I enjoying
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the show. And that’s what I find so bothersome.
⏹️ ▶️ John only because the they don’t like the person like I don’t think anyone cares that you like their
⏹️ ▶️ John stupid fake bits, right? It’s just whatever, whatever floats your boat. And you know, sometimes I get a
⏹️ ▶️ John chuckle out of them too. But like, you know, they’re the thing. The thing about Top Gear
⏹️ ▶️ John is, first of all, to talk about the show itself, the production quality was high. I think we can all agree on that. Oh, I don’t know how
⏹️ ▶️ John much the show cost to produce. Everything was shot. Well, it was, you know, there was not a lot
⏹️ ▶️ John of flab to it. The production quality was high. And they did car reviews. And they did
⏹️ ▶️ John car reviews, I think, in a very interesting way, I think even more interesting than a lot of the more YouTube things. So if you wanted to see
⏹️ ▶️ John car reviews with wit and humor and not taking yourself too seriously, they’re the best I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John ever seen. They were like three minutes long sometimes,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and they were not like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like reading an article in a car magazine about a car where you read the
⏹️ ▶️ John seven preview articles, the first drive article, the review, the comparison. Like, that is a different thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John They the forum they were working in, and I don’t know if they define this form or not, but they were
⏹️ ▶️ John excellent at that forum for doing what they did. And they also had this stuff where they did a bunch of fake stuff that made you think they were going on a big
⏹️ ▶️ John journey through some country or whatever. But they did what they did well. And so that’s what is the
⏹️ ▶️ John reason the show is insanely popular, right? In the face of things like all the people doing are using
⏹️ ▶️ John YouTube, in the face of Motor Week, Owings Mills, Maryland 21117, like there
⏹️ ▶️ John have been other car things on television, but Top Gear was head and shoulders Above them in the area
⏹️ ▶️ John that it decided to define.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I don’t know. I’m just sad I’m sad that it ended. I’m sad. It’s Clarkson’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fault I’m sad that I’m not allowed to be sad about it. Apparently according to half the Internet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hey, you know what screw those guys be sad about it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree and I am sad about it and I mean I wouldn’t have said I was sad if I was that worried about what they’re saying
⏹️ ▶️ John sad i’m sad that the show is for us all to say top gear putting emphasis
⏹️ ▶️ John instead of saying top gear top gear it’s the british way to say top gear we
⏹️ ▶️ John all just say top gear and it drives me insane and when people say series it also upsets me greatly
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah i agree with that so that is i think that is the sad legacy of top gear
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh goodness no but i don’t know we’ll see what I mean you never know what’ll happen they they may have
⏹️ ▶️ John so I assume the show will be back Do we all assume the show will be back because the name name is too bad yeah?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it will be I well. I’m sure it’ll be back with some people in it. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John continue I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John just saying there will be a show called top gear
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right yeah, but already There’s a couple shows called top gear most of them suck. I mean like they well
⏹️ ▶️ John American top gear I agree that that manages to like remove
⏹️ ▶️ John all the parts that I like from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco real that’s the thing like if you take it back to it just being a car show
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you don’t have these characters in it it’s a lot less interesting American
⏹️ ▶️ John Gear isn’t a car show they try to do all the same bits they just it just doesn’t doesn’t gel you
⏹️ ▶️ John know and I feel like the production college quality is way lower I don’t know I think it is
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s possible to have in the same way that the daily show I remember all Craig Kilbourn’s leaving the other show. Well, that show is over.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, not quite like it could be reborn. I’m fully willing to agree that another set of
⏹️ ▶️ John interesting charismatic people who really have passionate opinions about cars could make that show work again. And then so
⏹️ ▶️ John I assume none of these three guys are going to be back. Where do they go off and do something? I’m sure plenty
⏹️ ▶️ John of people are willing to hire them to do a car show for them, call it whatever the hell they want to call it. So I think you will still be able
⏹️ ▶️ John to see these people talking about cars and you’ll probably still be able to see a show whose name is Top Gear
⏹️ ▶️ John sometime in the future.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I think like the same things that were making it get worse over time and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and get kind of played out I think those same things apply to any people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you put in the show like it isn’t it isn’t these people Were necessarily played out. It’s that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I think the show did everything it could do it in the way We know it today
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s like the Daily Show with Greg Kilbourne like the format changed when John Stewart came to focus the format the way
⏹️ ▶️ John the show worked changed. It wasn’t like a show where we make funny jokes making fun of celebrities. It became basically
⏹️ ▶️ John like a news commentary show. And that was Jon Stewart’s doing because that came from him. A new set of people can take
⏹️ ▶️ John the show in a totally new direction. That’s what I’m talking about with new people. Like it’s not going to be just the same show with different hosts.
⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever is inside those people who take over the show, they can define the direction that the
⏹️ ▶️ John show goes. What is it going to be like? I don’t think it’s going to be like the top gear that we’re familiar
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with. Yeah, I don’t know. We’ll see what happens. And I suspect the three of them are going to stick stick around and do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something different. And you know, there’s been rumblings about them going to Netflix and we’ll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wouldn’t be surprised if they do the direct to video thing that Clarkson has done many times in the past.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But they’re also they’re also pretty old, right? I mean, yeah, what is Clarkson like early 50s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey may is early to mid 50s. And I think a certain point,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they’re more limited in the types of things they can do, even if they wanted to keep doing this kind of show for
⏹️ ▶️ John someone else. You know, you can’t have a 65 year old going through Bolivia in a 4x4.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also, the show they’ve been making so far had, as you said, a pretty sizable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco budget. Anywhere else they could go, they might be forced to dramatically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reduce the things they do and that might just not work for them or might not work for