Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

91: Press Agree to Drive

Twitter’s strategy, CarPlay development, and .NET open-sourcing.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ John Pfft. Denied. Reject this offer immediately. Furthermore, declare

⏹️ ▶️ John war against that podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think we have some exciting news.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do? I think it’s time that we reach the largest daily audience in the world by connecting everyone to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their world via our information sharing and distribution platform products and be one of the top revenue generating

⏹️ ▶️ Marco internet companies in the world.

⏹️ ▶️ John Who puts revenue generation in your statement?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That was in

⏹️ ▶️ John the mission statement? Isn’t that implied? Like, we also want to make a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of money. We want a lot of money to flow through our corporation. Hopefully

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually our costs will be below that amount and we’ll realize some profit. But really what we mostly want to concentrate

⏹️ ▶️ John on is just throughput, you know? Make it up in volume. Just lots of revenue. That’s in

⏹️ ▶️ John our mission statement. It’s just so… It aims so low.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and to be fair, they corrected us. This is not Twitter’s new mission

⏹️ ▶️ Marco statement. This is Twitter’s new strategy statement. I’m not entirely sure what the difference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is. Maybe this is just because I’m not from this planet and business people apparently are. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s the opposite. Okay, that’s because something is, something is wacky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in business. Like is there, whatever they put in most businesses, is there some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird chemical that off-gases from that, that might cause this kind of language to be understood

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and produced? So maybe it’s like the spider phones or like cubicle walls. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just meetings. It’s just, you know, you’ve seen a demotivational poster for meetings.

⏹️ ▶️ John None of us is as dumb as all of us.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, the thing of it is, I’ve talked about this in the past and I’m not being funny right now. I really believe that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most large businesses, and I have seen this firsthand in financial services

⏹️ ▶️ Casey firms, they’re entirely, not literally of course, but they’re entirely middle management

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the problem is that every one of these middle managers realizes deep down inside

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they’re redundant. And so they all decide to have meetings constantly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they have these meetings so that at these meetings, all of the middle managers can stick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up their peacock tails and say, ooh, look at me, I’m so smart, I’m not redundant. It’s all you idiots that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are the redundant ones. And that’s that. This is the same thing that happens with lawyers. They make

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up these ridiculous reasons to exist simply so that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they can continue to exist. It’s completely self-serving and ridiculous. I mean, look at reach the largest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey daily audience in the world by connecting everyone to their world via our information sharing and distribution

⏹️ ▶️ Casey platform products and be one of the top revenue generating internet companies in the world. I know you read that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey before. I’m reading it again and I am miserable.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why don’t you just tell us what it is because we’ve just been talking about this as if everyone knows and some poor person is going to be listening to this six months

⏹️ ▶️ John from now and have no idea what we’re talking about.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the recently unveiled Twitter strategy statement. At first everyone thought it was a mission statement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was later corrected to be a strategy statement. It was unveiled on some kind of investor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco presentation that they held today. Yeah, my favorite part is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco platform products.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s where you stop being able to parse the sentence and you’re like, is there missing punctuation

⏹️ ▶️ John or is this a typo?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean the whole thing is a tremendous run-on sentence that really could benefit from some commas. You can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tell they don’t even write, like they don’t write very well. They don’t, this doesn’t even fit in a tweet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as many people pointed out. As either a mission or a strategy statement, it is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say, weak at

⏹️ ▶️ John best. And it doesn’t finish strong. It gets worse, especially the bottom. So revenue I just made fun of, like, like

⏹️ ▶️ John putting that in there just seems crass and putting revenue instead of product just seems dumb. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the best part is it’s one of the top. Like they’re not even gonna say number one.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey They’re I’m not gonna say biggest.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re just gonna be like, we just wanna be a contender for money moving through our organization, really.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re not gonna say we’re gonna be number one. Like, you know, everyone makes fun of Google’s don’t be evil thing or whatever, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re, whatever, they’re, I don’t know if their mission statement or whatever, isn’t it like indexing all the world’s information

⏹️ ▶️ John or something like that? And Microsoft’s was the old, you know, a computer on every desk running Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John software. Like, those are simple, easy to understand goals

⏹️ ▶️ John that don’t say, we really want our share price to be high. Our goal is to make our CEO’s

⏹️ ▶️ John options worth so much that he can retire in five years and buy an island. Like, you might as well just put that in

⏹️ ▶️ John your mission statement. Jason Snell in the chat room said his company’s mission statement at one point included revenue

⏹️ ▶️ John per employee. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ John You just don’t, it’s just aiming low. It’s terrible. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s almost like, you could say, You can think that, but don’t write it down. But really, you shouldn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John be thinking that. When Microsoft and Google both have

⏹️ ▶️ John more noble, more

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco inspirational mission statements

⏹️ ▶️ John than you do,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re not doing well. Well, and what this shows, it’s obviously this is a sentence

⏹️ ▶️ Marco designed by so much committee. Yep. I don’t think it’s a sentence. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these clauses that are bolted on that don’t really need to be there. And they reflect like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every department had a bolt on. or the leadership couldn’t decide what to say until they said everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All of which is funny, because that all kind of seems to reflect Twitter’s kind of wacky, weak

⏹️ ▶️ Marco leadership. Twitter has always had leadership issues from the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco founders coming in and out, and different CEOs and business people coming in and out. They’ve always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had really seemingly unstable leadership. I mean, Dick Costolo, I think, has been there the longest out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of anybody who’s been near the top. But it’s always just kind of been all over the place.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And what they have with the sentences is a very clear indicator to the outside world

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they still have struggles up at the very top with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting what the direction of the company might even be or who gets to get recognized or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a little thing. This is not like a major disaster or anything, but it’s an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco indicator of the kind of sloppy, out of touch, possibly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, shot in the dark kind of leadership that they have. I mean look at like I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reach the largest daily audience in the world. You could end it right there and be done. It’s still a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little weird. Although

⏹️ ▶️ John that even that is like what do you mean reach when you’ve reached them what have you done like you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John you know I mean like the Google thing like they’re they’re whatever they’re doing indexing the world’s information like they’re they’re taking

⏹️ ▶️ John all the information in the world they want to bring it all in and organize it and make it accessible in a way like they’re doing useful They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John saying this information, it’s hard to do anything with it. We Google have this massive ambition that

⏹️ ▶️ John all information will take it in and we’ll make it so that you can do something useful with it. Right? That is a useful thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and even the next clause is also pretty good. Connect everyone to their world. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that alone doesn’t say a lot, but it’s better than it’s better than the whole, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know? And then, of course, the end be one of the top revenue generating Internet companies in the world. Okay, you know, if you if that’s what you want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be fine, but like this could if anybody with with editing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco permission got a hold of this it probably would have been better to just say connect everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to their world like that’s it that’s all you need to say out of this entire like 65 word

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sentence that’s awful but

⏹️ ▶️ John even that is just like really weak like it just it doesn’t seem like they know what

⏹️ ▶️ John if it would have been a more fun meeting take the same people who came up with this and say

⏹️ ▶️ John what do you think Twitter is doing now what do people use Twitter for like Twitter is a thing that exists

⏹️ ▶️ John right you guys run the company so can you describe like what it is that Twitter is right now

⏹️ ▶️ John like not what you want it to be not what you want the company to be not what your mission is but like right now there is something called Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John and people use it and try to describe that and I don’t think they could because I don’t think they’re Twitter users I don’t think they understand what

⏹️ ▶️ John value the Twitter has that would have been a more instructive exercise for them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I would be shocked if most of Twitter’s top leadership

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really used Twitter very heavily.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t get this. And I keep coming back to what you were saying earlier, Marco, that this is definitely designed by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey committee. This, this, what, what, not a mission statement, what do we call it? Strategy statement? A strategy statement.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thank you. The strategy statement seems like the text-based equivalent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of like a website’s carousel. Do you know what I’m talking about? Where, you know, there are 10 different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey groups that all are convinced that they should be the hero image on this website.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And what ends up happening is nobody wants to make a tough decision. And so they just say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ah, screw it. We’ll put it on a rotating carousel and that’ll be good enough. This is like the text version

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of that. Just like you were saying, everyone, you get three words a piece and we’ll just mash them together in some way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that vaguely resembles English. So bad. So bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. You want to do some followup?

⏹️ ▶️ John There was one other thing I was trying to think about with the Twitter thing and I totally lost my mind. Uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it’ll come back to me later.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe the strategy statement melted your brain.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Probably.

⏹️ ▶️ John It definitely did. Although I was proud of myself that I remembered the, uh, demotivational poster word for

⏹️ ▶️ John word without, without looking it up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So let’s talk about, um, app store, not allowing purchase of bundles.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I didn’t have an example of that last time. I still don’t have an example, but I think the same person, Colin Pickering,

⏹️ ▶️ John who sent in the, uh, original thing, sent us a screenshot and the weird thing about the screenshot, if you take a look

⏹️ ▶️ John at it is it just gets rid of the purchase button. I mean, it’s not a big screenshot.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s cropped, so I can’t see. But basically, there’s no purchase button. He’s got a big red arrow saying this is where the purchase button would

⏹️ ▶️ John be. And if he didn’t include another shot showing the purchase button like that it would be there, I wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John understand what the error is pointing to. So basically, if someone stumbles upon one of these bundles is good, I guess that the app store won’t let you buy it for

⏹️ ▶️ John more than it would cost you just to buy the one app you’re missing. But it’s kind of weird. Maybe somewhere

⏹️ ▶️ John else on the page, it tells you why there’s no purchase button.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is like bug fix by display none. Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, you know, maybe a button that says, here’s the problem. What would you put

⏹️ ▶️ John in the button? Uh, you can’t buy this because it would cost you more than buying the individual

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco app. It does

⏹️ ▶️ John not fit in a button and let’s try it in German. Right? So it’s not, it’s not going to work out. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Bundles are a mess anyway. Uh, but I throw that in there. I’ll put it in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m still honestly trying to figure out why Apple made bundles. You You know, obviously it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was not for upgrade price hacks. That’s obviously not the intent here, otherwise it would work better for that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really wonder, like, what, like, it seems to only benefit, obviously, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only benefits paid apps. I don’t think in-app purchases can contribute in any possible way to this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Apple usually doesn’t do anything to help paid apps because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the apps that actually get downloaded aren’t paid apps, and most of the money in the App Store does not come from paid

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps anymore. I think the number is something like 10% or something of the money comes from paid apps. It’s some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of very low number by most of the reports that try to measure it. So I wonder what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the goal here? Was it some kind of weird, like serve certain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game companies kind of thing? I honestly have no idea. It’s a sales

⏹️ ▶️ John tool. So it’s yet another thing that Apple can do to make software cheaper,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you think of it in that light, right? So there are some apps that are paid and it’s like, well, we can’t make those people

⏹️ ▶️ John make their apps free. But maybe we can make it so that the cost of those apps is less by letting people bundle them

⏹️ ▶️ John up so that if people were going to buy these three apps anyway, now you can buy those three apps for less money that you know, it’s basically just

⏹️ ▶️ John lowering the purchase price for all sorts of sale tactics. Obviously, free is magic. But people

⏹️ ▶️ John like lower prices as well. So the price of individual apps gets driven down.

⏹️ ▶️ John But this is a tool to say, if you make a suite of applications, and people aren’t going

⏹️ ▶️ John to buy them individually for, you know, 299 each, because that’s just too much money. So put them all

⏹️ ▶️ John into a bundle together for five bucks, you know, put four to 99 apps in the bundle for five bucks. And then

⏹️ ▶️ John you basically once again found a way to lower the price of software for customers. They get more software

⏹️ ▶️ John for less money. That’s, that’s my guess. I mean, because that’s the Apple’s big thing is like they want software

⏹️ ▶️ John to be cheap. And if if there are some applications that are not cheap,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like

⏹️ ▶️ John what if we get and it’s good, you know, it’s a it’s a win win for the developer to this, you have multiple apps that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John having trouble selling them individually. What if we gave you a way to sell them together for a lower price. That would save

⏹️ ▶️ John the consumer money. Anyone who was going to buy both of those apps anyway saves money. And you maybe make a sale

⏹️ ▶️ John where where you wouldn’t before, because before they you know, it’s perceived as a bargain. It’s the same reason, you know, everything

⏹️ ▶️ John is on sale all the time at the big department stores.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. But still, it just it seems it just seems like Apple is doing something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty redundant here. Like if they’re trying to reduce the price that paid software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sells for, they can just do that by inaction. Like because everything else

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the App Store encourages prices to go down to free.

⏹️ ▶️ John People love bundles though. Back when I was at the e-book store place, we had many

⏹️ ▶️ John different kinds of bundles and they were a popular thing to have. We like making

⏹️ ▶️ John them, people like buying them. I’m surprised more electronics

⏹️ ▶️ John stores, I mean, I guess they kind of do. Does the iTunes store do that when you complete this album? Is it always just

⏹️ ▶️ John straight math or do you get a bargain?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe it is straight math, but I’m not I’m not 100% sure on that. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, bundles is the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Free slogan. They can have that. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John How about I work as I work? I work speaking of of bundles and cheaper software. So John G,

⏹️ ▶️ John not John Gruber, wrote in to comment on what I said about I work

⏹️ ▶️ John about how having a mediocre to crappy office type program doesn’t make Apple’s hardware more

⏹️ ▶️ John valuable. It doesn’t help Apple sell hardware in the way that I used to back when I was really good,

⏹️ ▶️ John I work has never been really good and doesn’t really help sell Max if anything, maybe it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John neutral. And John G says that he thinks it’s they’re all defensive strategies to ensure the companies don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John get squeezed out. He says, what if the surface sixth generation is amazingly caught up to the iPad and comes with office

⏹️ ▶️ John free Apple might get squeezed out. So basically by having having its own office suite, they’re not beholden to Microsoft.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they won’t be afraid that that whatever their platform as iPad or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John will become less viable if Microsoft suddenly decides they don’t want to offer Office for iOS. Now, first of all,

⏹️ ▶️ John the odds at this point of Microsoft not offering Office for iOS seem very low since

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft seems very gung ho on cross platform these days. Second of all, Office wasn’t on iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John for a really long time, didn’t seem to hurt it. But the biggest counter argument to this idea

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple needs to make an Office suite so so they don’t get squeezed out by

⏹️ ▶️ John someday having Office taken away or something, is that Apple having a mediocre

⏹️ ▶️ John Office suite subsidized by hardware profits makes it way harder for third-party developers to make

⏹️ ▶️ John a living selling Office-type applications. I work as a free thing, and I think it’s free now, right, all the

⏹️ ▶️ John time. Comes with new devices anyway. You can just download the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey app

⏹️ ▶️ John automatically, right? Right. That makes it really hard for anybody else to try to make Office-style

⏹️ ▶️ John applications. Microsoft can because they’re subsidized by whatever is making them money. And I think they just made

⏹️ ▶️ John Office for iOS free or something like that. But mostly, sort of. Yeah, I know. It’s always

⏹️ ▶️ John confusing with the 365 thing and subscriptions

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s mostly free. Yeah, but so if Apple is really concerned about making

⏹️ ▶️ John its platform not too reliant on Office or any other particular type of thing, the best thing

⏹️ ▶️ John it could do is foster a thriving market for Office type applications.

⏹️ ▶️ John And by putting tons of money into iWork and then giving it away for free, or at the

⏹️ ▶️ John very least, as it was before, below cost, that makes it impossible for you to have a thriving ecosystem of Office

⏹️ ▶️ John applications. You’re basically guaranteeing it’s only just you versus Office. So I think rather than

⏹️ ▶️ John iWork being neutral, it’s actually, in terms of the fear of being squeezed

⏹️ ▶️ John out, it’s actually a negative. Because they’re making sure that no one else will ever try to make a suite of Office

⏹️ ▶️ John applications. Because, well, Microsoft plus Apple are both making sure that no one else is going

⏹️ ▶️ John to try to do that. So we’re at the mercy of Microsoft, which so far hasn’t been that great, and

⏹️ ▶️ John iWork, which also has not been that great.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How about the Rymak GPU being throttled? Is that a thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it is a thing, at least for people who are interested in playing games in Windows. A lot of people sent me this link to

⏹️ ▶️ John MacRumors forum thread about the iMac 5K GPU throttling.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it started where someone was doing some gaming benchmarks in Windows, a new

⏹️ ▶️ John boot camp on iMac 5K and saw that the GPU would

⏹️ ▶️ John start throttling way below the temperature it was supposed to. So

⏹️ ▶️ John according to this person, he thinks that the GPU is supposed to start throttling at 105 degrees Celsius.

⏹️ ▶️ John And instead, it started throttling like seconds after it started to be used in Windows. It would start throttling at like 70

⏹️ ▶️ John degrees Celsius. So that’s not good, but that could just be bad Windows drivers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And lots of people in the rest of this thread talk about, well, maybe better

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey boot

⏹️ ▶️ John camp drivers will come out and this will be a problem. But then other people later in the thread said, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not just Windows. I can run a game on my Mac and it’s really easy to get the GPO

⏹️ ▶️ John up to 105 degrees Celsius. And for people who don’t know what Celsius is,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s really hot. 100 degrees Celsius is the boiling point of water, right? Yes, yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, as the Americans confidently say, yes, yes, Celsius. Anyway, the point is that’s really

⏹️ ▶️ John hot. And a lot of people in the thread are concerned that this is near the thermal limits of the GPU.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s going to shorten the life of the GPU. And other people in the thread say, don’t you think Apple would have tested this with temperatures?

⏹️ ▶️ John And other people come back with, well, look at all these historic GPU failures in Apple portable machines.

⏹️ ▶️ John So at the very least, this is not encouraging if you’re planning on gaming on an iMac.

⏹️ ▶️ John Temperatures aside, if you’re not worried about the particular temperatures, or maybe it’s the way it’s measured because it’s peak temperature

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of at the edge or whatever, I think the

⏹️ ▶️ John more important point is, and it’s other than like the open the show, is the gaming benchmarks. So

⏹️ ▶️ John ignore temperatures, ignore temperatures entirely, ignore the longevity of your GPU,

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever that may or may not be. If you look at gaming benchmarks, like this barefeets thing did,

⏹️ ▶️ John of the new fanciest 5k iMac versus the lesser GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John in the 5k iMac versus the old non-retina iMac. The top

⏹️ ▶️ John of the line iMac you can buy is not even the fastest iMac ever made in, depending

⏹️ ▶️ John on your game. And when it does win, it doesn’t win by a large margin. So these benchmarks are

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of depressing from game. It’s not bad game performance, it’s fine. But you would expect, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John this to be a next generation iMac with an entirely different GPU. You’d expect it to do better

⏹️ ▶️ John than the previous generation GPU. And for the most part it does, but it’s not a really

⏹️ ▶️ John convincing win in a couple benchmarks that actually is a little bit slower. And so regardless of throttling, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not great either. So it’s kind of not,

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say a mixed bag with a lot of unknowns right now for the 5K iMac. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John much about the temperature stuff. I can’t really tell if this is crazy or not, although people running

⏹️ ▶️ John similar benchmarks against their old iMacs are getting way lower temperatures. You can’t tell,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, is that because the sensor is showing the temperature at a different location? What is the

⏹️ ▶️ John reasonable temperature for this GPU? Is it okay for it to be showing a

⏹️ ▶️ John measurement of 105 degrees Celsius all the time? The throttling in Windows seems like a driver issue,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it shouldn’t be throttling at 70 degrees Celsius, and so that’s really killing Windows gaming performance there.

⏹️ ▶️ John So, I don’t know. Anyway, depressing thread for anyone who is looking forward to gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John on their iMac 5K.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you’re right, John, that is disappointing. It doesn’t affect me or my priorities at all, but that is disappointing. For whatever it’s worth,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve been running the iStatMenu’s fan monitor just so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I could get an idea of when the fan spins up, under what temperatures, under what kind of load,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just so I can have some idea of how this computer behaves. Right now, it’s letting the CPUs idle at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about 130 Fahrenheit. I don’t have this in cell-safe mode, sorry. You’ll have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do your own translations. CPUs are idling at about 130, GPUs idle at about 100.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco When I’m just sitting here doing not much, I’ve noticed that the fan will only spin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up on the CPU. Well, it’s one fan in the whole system, but the fan will spin up when the CPU temperature

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reaches about 190 Fahrenheit. So it’s getting very close to that 100 Celsius number before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the fan even spins up. It doesn’t ever cross 200, so it’s keeping it right below

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever that is in Celsius, like 95 or whatever. keeping the CPUs right below that under full load,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s not it’s not spinning up at all until then. Whatever that’s worth. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but yeah I have found so far in my kind of use I’m actually extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happy. The more I use this machine the happier I am with it. It is really really nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean it’s like even like I mentioned last week the fan noise under full load.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did the one test with the full load fan noise then I didn’t load it up like that for a few days and And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the memory of it got louder in my mind over those few days. And then when I ran a handbrake

⏹️ ▶️ Marco conversion the other day for a totally legal movie file that a totally legal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast friend of mine got me for a totally legal BBC car show. When I ran

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a handbrake transcode of that file to make it on my totally legal Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was matching up the CPUs again, and the fan was way quieter than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I imagined it in my head. It is loud, it is like a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fan in that when it spins to full speed you will hear it. But it is, I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, I’d say a little quieter than a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro fan after all. It’s similar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of noise, a little quieter, still noticeable, still audible, still annoying if it’s always that loud.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But either way, I would say this is a computer that is really great if you’re not loading

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up to full blast every day constantly. If full blast on the CPUs or GPUs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is an occasional thing, then that’s great and it won’t be a problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s the concern about this for gaming is people who game spend just hours with

⏹️ ▶️ John everything going full

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco tilt.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, and that I would be concerned. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John doing a first person shooter, just hours and hours a day for months and months on end. And what people are saying about

⏹️ ▶️ John the old iMac problems and other things is that it doesn’t kill it right away, but by the time your AppleCare

⏹️ ▶️ John runs out, if you bought a couple extra years of AppleCare, just around that point, just from the constant, constantly running

⏹️ ▶️ John at a very high temperature. And what they’re saying is it shortens the life of the components. And if the gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John performance was like this, where it’s like, it’s mostly faster than the previous top end, but not really by much. And then

⏹️ ▶️ John a few benchmarks, it’s a little bit under, you’d be like, okay, if it was like also lower power and cooler

⏹️ ▶️ John and quieter, but it’s like, it seems almost like a downgrade. Whereas the previous one got similar benchmark

⏹️ ▶️ John numbers running it at a lower indicated temperature, according to whatever these sensors are and the thing. So it gives the feeling

⏹️ ▶️ John that what am I? What am I doing? All this stuff or more, more? What do you call it? More VRAM, I guess,

⏹️ ▶️ John because I don’t think I’ve ever had four gigs, but it’s not. This doesn’t look like a

⏹️ ▶️ John good GPU upgrade from the previous one. It’s more kind of like a lateral move at best.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And this is I mean, I continue to believe, you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re looking at the Mac lineup with the goal of playing games, like playing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-end games a lot, I think you’re gonna be sad. And there’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not a lot of greatness to that. The best case scenario is you buy a Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is spending a lot of money for a video card that actually isn’t very good at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gaming. Like, it can do it, but you’re not getting your money’s worth on the video card,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because that’s not really what you’re paying for. You’re not paying for gaming ability on the Mac Pro’s $5,000

⏹️ ▶️ Marco purchase price. So, really I continue

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say that your best choice if you want to play PC games is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to either settle for a game console or build a gaming PC, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s so. Game

⏹️ ▶️ John console is not an equivalent for PC games. People who want to play PC games need a keyboard and a mouse.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, so then build a gaming PC. It’s like, you can build a great gaming PC for like $1,200. I wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco call it great. Well, if you wanted to match the current Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro with its best video card option, I bet you could build a gaming PC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has roughly similar gaming performance as that for, totally off the top of my head, I would say 1500 or less.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, but we’re not talking about performance. Like when you say a great PC, like the reason people buy Macs is

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not just interested in what is the frame rate for amount of money. Like obviously, they would just get a gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John PC if you wanted to do that, but what you’re looking for from a Mac like the whole package you wanted.

⏹️ ▶️ John Nice and elegant and lots of extraneous stuff and you’re sure it’ll all work together and you don’t have to worry about driver

⏹️ ▶️ John issues and it looks nice and in the case of the Mac Pro it’s quiet and it’s cool and interesting and all that stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John you know. So the Mac Pro is still the best gaming Mac which is sad because it’s got like you said not

⏹️ ▶️ John not a great video card for gaming and you just pay a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco tremendous

⏹️ ▶️ John amount of money for it.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like what you see is what you get taken to the extreme. And then you can also do things like you can simulate

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s talk about Trim for a second. We brought this up last episode with regard to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John’s new purchase. And we got some feedback about that, John.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, this is from a former Apple engineer. This is something we didn’t mention in the past show,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s worth clarifying in case people were wondering. Why is it that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John initially only supported Trim on its own drives,

⏹️ ▶️ John and to this day still doesn’t support it on a lot of third party drives. Is it a punitive thing where Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John wants you to buy their drives and doesn’t want to support trim on third party drives? No, not really. Uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason they don’t support trim on third party drives, the same reason Apple doesn’t support a lot of third party stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, is, you know, they, they want to, they want to decrease their, their support burdens. They

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of qualify, they white list which devices they can send trim commands

⏹️ ▶️ John here. And this, this former Apple engineer says that in the first two years after trim showed up

⏹️ ▶️ John as a thing, a lot of the flash controllers out there had firmware that would trim the wrong range

⏹️ ▶️ John of blocks. So the OS would tell it to trim a certain set of blocks and it would do it like off by one

⏹️ ▶️ John or or even worse. There is taking logical block numbers and using them as physical block numbers with no mappings.

⏹️ ▶️ John And there was other bugs like not invalidating the trim in the queue if it later right was given for the block. So

⏹️ ▶️ John lots of basically bugs that if Apple Apple simply said, oh, we’ll support trim everywhere. And we’ll send

⏹️ ▶️ John the correct trim commands to any third party drive you plug in. That would be bad, because Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John knew for a fact that there were many buggy drives out there that would

⏹️ ▶️ John do bad things if you send the trim command, some of which could result in data loss. So what they did is the typical Apple thing of,

⏹️ ▶️ John they made sure that their own SSDs that they shipped worked with the trim command.

⏹️ ▶️ John Some of them, the internal flash shipped with firmware that Apple wrote or firmware that they could get in source

⏹️ ▶️ John code form and could modify. And later on, when some firmware

⏹️ ▶️ John came from vendors that was OK, Apple whitelisted it. And so basically, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you connect an SSD to OS X, if it’s not one of the ones that Apple is absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ John sure is going to behave correctly, either because they wrote the firmware or they qualified it as an internal drive, or they whitelisted

⏹️ ▶️ John it as the exact third-party make and model and drive that works correctly, they don’t do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that is the most conservative approach and the safest approach. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John could probably also guess that Apple does not spend a lot of its time buying every single third-party SSD,

⏹️ ▶️ John testing its trim support, and increasing the size of that whitelist.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which is why the third-party hack, the trim enabler thing, is out there. If you feel like you

⏹️ ▶️ John have a drive that you’re sure responds correctly to trim commands and would benefit from using them, you

⏹️ ▶️ John could use that enabler. Then in Yosemite, they have the kernel extension signing thing. Listen

⏹️ ▶️ John to the previous show for all the details on that. So if anyone thought that our description

⏹️ ▶️ John last week was implying that Apple was malicious in this case, at worst, you could say they’re lazy because they’re not,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, buying and qualifying every single drive so they can increase the sizes of

⏹️ ▶️ John their whitelist. But at best, they’re just being typical conservative Apple and trying to keep

⏹️ ▶️ John their driver burden low. And I think a couple of the people who send information about, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think we alluded to this last week, the utility of the trim command may or may not be lessened

⏹️ ▶️ John depending on the little storage computer that’s inside of each of your SSDs and how it manages

⏹️ ▶️ John storage. Again, the drive can’t know when blocks are freed up for use, but it can make

⏹️ ▶️ John more intelligent decisions about right leveling and stuff like that. So as I said last week,

⏹️ ▶️ John I am open to the idea that my Samsung 850 Pro that I have will eventually get super slow.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m also open to the idea that if that happens, it’s possible that enabling

⏹️ ▶️ John trim using this hack will solve the problem for me. But until the first problem happens,

⏹️ ▶️ John I am not interested in the experiment of discovering whether the second thing solves the problem or causes more.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. And then do we want to briefly talk about whether or not the 6

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Plus is selling well?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, what was that like last week? That 50-50 number came from the T-Mobile CEO

⏹️ ▶️ John or something. He was saying, yeah, the 6, 6 plus seemed to be in about even numbers. And who knows what that

⏹️ ▶️ John means from T-Mobile. Here’s another one from this Localytics company that is

⏹️ ▶️ John some kind of app analytics company. And they gave numbers that are closer to my original prediction from,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, right after the phones were announced that I expected the 6 to way outsell the 6 plus. And Localytics

⏹️ ▶️ John says that the 6 is outselling the 6 plus 6 to 1. And as usual, Apple says nothing. So we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know. But we’ll put the link in the show notes. Now we have two extremely widely varying guesses,

⏹️ ▶️ John both from unreliable sources. But I’m still very curious. I mean, what have you guys seen like out in the wild

⏹️ ▶️ John when you’ve seen people with iPhone 6s? What is your ratio of spotting 6 Pluses to 6s?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t go outside.

⏹️ ▶️ John When we get chicken salad, nobody in line at the deli has…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have not seen a single 6 Plus in the deli. Yeah, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seen a handful of 6 Pluses. Is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true? I think I’ve seen only one or two and I know a handful of people that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have them. And, uh, I remember when I was asking around around the time that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everyone was making purchases. So I was asking around amongst all of our friends, like Mike Hurley

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Ben Thompson and Ray Ritchie and all of them. Um, at that point, I would say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was like two thirds, sixes, one third, six pluses, although I,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do believe some of these people have relented and gone to. six from six plus.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, um, I I’d say it’s not six to one, but certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a, a, a few to not many, if that makes any sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John First time I saw a six plus in person was this weekend when I went into the Apple store to look at the five K I Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’ve seen lots of sixes in person from, you know, coworkers and people walking around,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, but I’d never seen a six plus before.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There you go. Science for accidental tech podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Anyway, we, so the bottom online, we still have no idea. And yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m still curious to know. Maybe Apple will tell us who knows someday.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Marco, you recently released an update to Overcast. And I’d like to hear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about that. But most specifically, I’d like to hear about this CarPlay thing that apparently you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey added. Yes, I added CarPlay. All right, moving on. So Microsoft…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no. So how did that come to be? Because my understanding of CarPlay

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that’s not the sort of thing that you can just decide you want to be a part of. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how did that happen? What are you willing to share?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I started asking people at Apple, how do I become a CarPlay app?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And over time, I eventually got to the right person and got through

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the process.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was a much less exciting story than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I owe. It was a pretty unexciting process, to be honest. I mean, I’m not sure if I can really reveal the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco details, but they’re not that exciting. I asked around for a long time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and eventually got in. That’s the story, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it. So how did you get, you posted a picture of the little like screen, car

⏹️ ▶️ John screen thingy that you have hooked up to a converter so you can feed a 12 volts DC.

⏹️ ▶️ John What is that? Why did you buy it? Was it a recommended thing? Did it come as part of the program?

⏹️ ▶️ John All that stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is exactly as boring as of a story as you would imagine. I wanted to test

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on real CarPlay hardware before I released it. So I went to Best Buy and bought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the cheapest car radio that supported CarPlay. And I bought a cheap 12-volt power supply on Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for 20 bucks. And I brought it home, plugged it in, and tested it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Does your car support CarPlay? Do any of your cars support it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, so you couldn’t actually use the car. It wasn’t just a matter of you didn’t wanna be sitting in a garage with your car or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John You wanted to have it on your desk, but you don’t even have anything we can use. So this is a feature you’re not even going to use yourself. The only

⏹️ ▶️ John place you’re ever gonna use it is on your desk in front of this little screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Correct. I did it because the effort to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reward ratio I thought was worth it. It was very low effort. You know, it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of asking, but that’s like, you know, you send an email every few months. I mean, it wasn’t that big of a problem. But then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the actual implementation of it is very, very simple because CarPlay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps are limited. The APIs that you use as a CarPlay app are public.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can go see them right now. It’s the MP playable content manager, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think. That’s the CarPlay API for third-party audio apps. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, and the Apple program simply gets you approved to use that and to be integrated properly with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the CarPlay receivers, like to appear on their home screen and everything. The interface that your app has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to CarPlay is very, very simple. If you look at the MP content or MP playable content manager thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s it. That is, you basically provide a hierarchical menu like the old iPods

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you have items and you click on the item and it says, alright, now you’re at this level of the tree and what are the items for this level

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the tree and is this one playable or not or does it pop under the menu? And that’s about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. It’s very, very simple. So because of that, it’s actually very easy to test. I don’t feel that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I need to be using this myself full time to really make sure it’s working properly. I think it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of thing I can test only occasionally and it works just fine. That’s about it. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many CarPlay compatible vehicles and head units are out there yet. I have no idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure it’s not a huge number, but it was relatively easy to do,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and for the people who do have it, it matters quite a bit. One of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reasons why I kept asking Apple about this is because I was interested

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from the beginning, but whenever the CarPlay stuff first started becoming available to customers, I think it was like two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco months ago or three months ago, it was fairly recent. But ever since that point,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve had people asking me on Twitter almost every day, hey, why don’t you support CarPlay?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The handful of people who have CarPlay radios, apparently a big portion of them used Overcast,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and were very upset that I wasn’t supported properly on there yet. So again, it matters

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot to a small number of people, and it was very easy to do. So that’s why I did it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I’ve forgotten so much about CarPlay. It require you to connect with a wire still, or can you do a wireless

⏹️ ▶️ John thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe it’s wired only. The radio I got,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is the Pioneer AppRadio 4, is called the AppRadio 4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in so many places except the box or any part of the Pioneer website, where it’s called the SPH-DA120.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is great consumer electronics stuff. People keep asking me if I recommend that one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The answer is I have no idea. I’ve literally only used it for this purpose.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I find most third party car radios to be pretty tacky and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of overly happy with things like blue LEDs and ugly menus. And this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no exception. So I’m just not a good person to ask about that. So I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no idea, I cannot, and because I’m not using it in a car, I can’t tell you about things like the utility

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the other functions. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John does it have a USB connector and you’re just connecting an Apple like USB lightning thing in it and that’s all there is to it?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s exactly it. All right, and for the CarPlay thing, could you have basically

⏹️ ▶️ John implemented all this functionality before getting approval from Apple? And is the thing you got from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John simply permission to upload an app to the App Store that they won’t reject because it uses the CarPlay APIs?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, and I did. In fact, I wrote this code months ago. When the CarPlay API, in fact,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this code was in Overcast 1.0. It just was inactive. Because at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the time, when the AMP Playable Content Manager API first came out,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CarPlay wasn’t, I don’t think it was officially announced, or like it was announced at the same event, but the documentation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that, where it now says this is for CarPlay, didn’t explain it. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just said this is for like certain types of AV components and receivers and everything. So I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thought, I wonder if there are like a special like made for iPod receiver, where like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if there’s like a home theater receiver that can display this hierarchical menu I’m creating.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there was going to be something else out there besides CarPlay that could show this maybe in homes or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I thought maybe I should get in I should get on that and make make sure that I work properly on those things. So I wrote all this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco code months ago and had no way to test it because I had no hardware that would actually interact with it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and nothing you know I couldn’t find any information on it so I guess I basically commented it out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I just didn’t instantiate the class that manages this in my code, in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco versions 1.0 through 1.04.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, okay. I really thought there was going to be a lot more drama there.

⏹️ ▶️ John You would think that if Apple was really interested in getting, like, why would it be this process that

⏹️ ▶️ John takes you months? Don’t you think it would be just as easy to

⏹️ ▶️ John join the CarPlay thing as it is to upload an app to the App Store? The App Store is successful because, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ John anybody with a couple bucks can sign up as a developer, write an app with our free tools and upload

⏹️ ▶️ John it and now you’re on the app store and there you go. Whereas CarPlay seems like a much harder

⏹️ ▶️ John system to get into and doesn’t make any sense if Apple’s interested in CarPlaying becoming a thing but maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe they’re not maybe this is like the version 1.0 and they’re not that interested in getting too many people to fiddle with it I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The problem with car stuff is there’s major concerns with safety and driver distraction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and secondarily there’s also a lot of laws laws and the laws vary in different countries and sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even different states. The laws vary on like, you know, what kind of interaction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is legal to provide to a driver while the car is in motion, whether like animations,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any kind of moving content is permitted or not permitted in certain contexts, in certain places.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All these, there’s so many regulations for and just simply just concerns for safety

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s, you know, this is pretty serious stuff. You don’t want to have somebody simulating

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Angry Birds in the dashboard display by changing the item artwork every half second or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s all these crazy ways that these kind of systems could be abused. Certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AppReview could probably catch a lot of that, but I don’t know how much AppReview is testing CarPlay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can understand if Apple wants to be cautious. I can understand why this might not be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco open to everybody. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know. Still seems kind of weird to me. Like you said, that’s the whole point of app review. And if they’re not,

⏹️ ▶️ John if app review is the bottleneck, what’s the point? If this is a thing that they want to happen,

⏹️ ▶️ John they should be paying more money for more people to review more carefully.

⏹️ ▶️ John There are medical applications in the App Store. Somehow that seems OK. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. It’s not a formula for success. If Apple really says, if CarPlay had

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a strategy statement. And it was like car play in every car in the world by 10 years from

⏹️ ▶️ John now or whatever. That’s obviously not what they’re going for. It just seems like they are.

⏹️ ▶️ John It seems like a hobby. Like Apple TV used to be like, we have a car solution. It’s a thing. It’s in Ferraris,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess, and also Hondas maybe. But we’re not that into it. Because there

⏹️ ▶️ John is that adversarial, sort of standoffish relationship with the

⏹️ ▶️ John carmakers themselves trying to sort out, how are we going to arrive at car interiors that aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible? And as we discussed at length on neutral.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, well, and also similar to all the concerns that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple or app makers should have about liability and safety problems, the car makers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have their own concerns too. Like, if you’re driving a BMW using Angry Birds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco simulated in CarPlay artwork, and you crash, so many people are upset about that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s so many people’s problem. you know, it’s obviously it’s your problem in a lot of ways.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Your family might have to deal with things, but it’s Apple’s problem. It’s the apps problem. It’s BMW’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem. Like the, the, the bad PR and lawsuits and everything can fly in all those different directions.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everyone has to, has to really cover their own butts here. And I really can’t blame anybody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this situation from, for being overly cautious because it is something that should be taken seriously.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So many of these things are covered over by the screens that come up when I start my car

⏹️ ▶️ John that are like, press OK to agree that you shouldn’t look at this screen when you’re driving.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you do, the screen goes away. It’s on, so you don’t actually have to press OK. But the little

⏹️ ▶️ John one screen EULA type thing, where it’s meaningless. Nobody

⏹️ ▶️ John reads it. It just becomes a constant annoyance. This is actually one of the many things that makes the electronics in cars

⏹️ ▶️ John annoying, the ass covering messages that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John just going to see for the entire life of the car. They will have no effect on how you use

⏹️ ▶️ John the car and will just and probably no effect legally speaking, because it’s not like it absolves anybody from,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, anyway, it’s stupid. I don’t like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, my car shows me a license agreement every time I start it. That’s so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John Press it. Press agree to drive.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Anyway, in better news, we are also sponsored this week, once

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t have the domain name bought like I can’t start working on it like it blocks me from working

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it. I know it sounds stupid, but the name of a project is very important to me, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I always think of that first, and I try to get that nailed down first. If you are like that, Hover is your friend. If you are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not like that, Hover will be your friend later. But regardless, Hover will be your friend at some point. Hover is designed

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s also very friendly for people who aren’t like us. They have this amazing support. They have telephone support,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even. You can call them up and talk to a real-life person immediately. There’s this awesome no hold, no wait, no transfer

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco next. They have great search. They have those word generation algorithms. So if what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you search for is not available anywhere, then they’ll suggest different rewordings of it or synonyms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or modifications that are available. It’s pretty good. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly, I’ve seen a lot of registrars attempt those kind of word tricks. Hover I think does it best. I’m honestly

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, today was somewhat unexpectedly, or at least for me, big day in my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey world because Microsoft has open sourced, or has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said they’re going to open source a considerable portion of .NET, and not only open source it, but bring it to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cross-platform. And this is, to me, a pretty darn big deal. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s probably not going to change my day-to-day life very much, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a very interesting statement from a company that very much didn’t believe that there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey were platforms other than Windows. And so what they did today is they said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re going to open source a few additional components of.NET. And the best write-up I found in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the few minutes I had to look at this, was by Miguel de Icaza. I hope I pronounced that right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He is the head and I believe founder of the Mono project, which is a project to take.NET

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and make it cross-platform. And what they were doing was, what’s the term for when you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey look at any sort of source and you don’t reverse compile or anything like that. You just clean room,

⏹️ ▶️ John reverse engineer, clean

⏹️ ▶️ Casey room, whatever. Thank you, sir. So they were doing a clean room version of.NET. And then over time, as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Microsoft is open source, little bits here and there, they would incorporate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey those as licensing would permit. Well, we’ll put a link to Miguel’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey post in the show notes, but basically, he breaks it down. And there are three

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that are being open source..NET Framework libraries,.NET Core framework libraries, and the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey RyuJIT, which sounds like Hadouken to me, but anyway, VM. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the framework class libraries is basically… So if you think of.NET as both

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a series of languages and then the class library that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey these languages sit on top of, or I guess maybe vice versa, for them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to release the.NET framework classes, that’s a really big damn deal.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so if you want to see how all this all all the foundational stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is implemented, you can go and check it out. And so that they’ve they’re open

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sourcing dotnet framework, class libraries dotnet core, which as Miguel says, the dotnet core is a redesigned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey version of dotnet that is based on the simplified version of the class libraries as well as a design that allows for dotnet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be incorporated into applications. And this should sound a lot like and I’m I’m going to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the, is a Clang or LLVM that’s, that’s leveraged within Xcode,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not just for compilation, but for just in time stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not quite, I think it’s just the underlying libraries that power both

⏹️ ▶️ John the Clang compiler and Xcode. I don’t know what you call those libraries. Someone probably knows.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s right. The point is you can build, you know, tools that leverage the compiler,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not on like in like an IDE, for example. So anyway, so all this stuff is going to show up on GitHub. I was poking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey around GitHub earlier tonight, and not all of it’s there yet, but it’s certainly going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to arrive there. And there’s also a good post, the official Microsoft blog post about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of this. And it talks about, or it’s kind of almost an FAQ. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey why do we open source.NET Core? Why are we doing it on GitHub?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And one of the things they said was, and this is from the blog post, as a principle,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we don’t want to ask the community to come to where we are. Instead, we want to go to where the community

⏹️ ▶️ Casey already is. And so they’re going to GitHub. All this stuff is going to show up. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s funny because on the one side, from my day to day, like I said earlier, I don’t think it’s really gonna change a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey darn thing, except maybe I could use.NET on OS X

⏹️ ▶️ Casey without using Mono, but I mean, whatever, I don’t really think know why I would wanna do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I think it indicates a pretty big shift in Microsoft away

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the Windows is everything and there’s nothing else in the world mentality. And that’s what I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think I’m most amped up about.

⏹️ ▶️ John So what does this make possible that wasn’t possible before? Because Mono was already cross-platform.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sure. So anything that you could say, well, now I can use

⏹️ ▶️ John C Sharp and.NET to write applications that run

⏹️ ▶️ John on platforms other than Windows. You already kind of could with Mono. What can I don’t quite understand? Other

⏹️ ▶️ John than, you know, other than for, all those things that Mono had to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John Xamarin had to clean room, reverse engineer and re-implement that now they don’t have to anymore. They can just take the actual source and incorporate

⏹️ ▶️ John it. But does this make anything new possible that wasn’t possible before, or feasible like

⏹️ ▶️ John it was possible before, but you’d be worried about how supported it was and now Microsoft said it’s gonna be officially

⏹️ ▶️ John supported.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That, I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s that it’s no longer third party, it’s now first party. And to go back

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to Miguel’s blog post, And I’m quoting now, we have a product underway

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, actually, let me back up, I’m sorry. Mono will be able to use as much as it wants from this project.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have a project underway that already does this. We are replacing chunks of Mono code that was either incomplete,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buggy, or not as fully featured as it should be with Microsoft’s code. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it certainly will improve Mono’s robustness, reliability, decrease in bugs, et

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cetera. But on the surface, I agree with you, John, that it doesn’t really necessarily enable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything that wasn’t there already. The only thing I can think of that might be a bit different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is I haven’t looked closely at Mono or Xamarin in a long time but if you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted to hypothetically run an ASP.NET website

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on something other than IIS, I would assume that as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of this open sourcing of among other things ASP.NET, you could do that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on top of like Apache or something like that without necessarily having to leverage Mono. I think Mono has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey done this at least in part in the past, but certainly it should be easier now, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that was my next question. But it’s like, not included in this, if I’m reading it correctly, is

⏹️ ▶️ John any of the sort of the GUI libraries that you use to make applications for Windows.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, Windows Forms I have not seen any mention of. And so I believe you are correct.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this is all kind of face-less server-side stuff. And then for the server-side stuff, it’s like, well, sorry. You know, ASP.NET

⏹️ ▶️ John is here. If I can build something, I don’t even know what you build for ASP.NET.

⏹️ ▶️ John But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John know what the API looks like, but I don’t understand the deployment outside of IIS. Do you just build a library

⏹️ ▶️ John that gets loaded? I have no idea. I’ve never done anything involving.NET inside Apache.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s the thing. And I’m not sure either. But the theory is that there’s nothing stopping you from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey writing some sort of glue between Apache and the ASP.NET DLLs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever output that comes from that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Horatio Boston in the chat room says that one new thing that’s possible is that you could use Visual Studio

⏹️ ▶️ John to build something that doesn’t run on a Windows. So you can build an executable that runs on OS 10.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the thing with this kind of like, if you want to use Xcode, you have to use a Mac. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you want to, I think this is still the case for all these open source components. Can

⏹️ ▶️ John you use anything other than Visual Studio or the Xamarin stuff to build this? Is there

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac command line thing where you could just run? There’s gotta be, I guess, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I don’t think there is, but they’re open sourcing. I believe they’re open sourcing Roslyn, which is their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey compiler

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John stack.

⏹️ ▶️ John They already did that, but I was wondering if, practically speaking, does that mean that you can get a command

⏹️ ▶️ John prompt and a bunch of files and start compiling source code on your Mac that runs on your Mac, or did you need,

⏹️ ▶️ John basically, do you need Windows? Do you need Visual Studio? Because Visual Studio is the IDE, and

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what you need to compile this stuff. I don’t know how far people have gone in taking the open source compiler and trying to make it

⏹️ ▶️ John so that you could actually do development of faceless non-GUI applications on the.NET stack using only

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac and not having a Windows machine anywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, I understand the question. And as far as I know, the only Mac-native compiler

⏹️ ▶️ Casey binary that exists is Mono’s compiler. But you’ve got the entire source of Roslyn.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So in principle, you could, although it is self-hosted, so I guess that is a little weird.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t know how that would work, but I’m sure someone is or has done it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. But this is interesting. It’s certainly an interesting move. It’s something that I didn’t expect from Microsoft, even though

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this has sort of been going on for a while now. It took me a little bit by surprise that this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much was going to get open source this quickly. And the only somewhat crummy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing about it, which I understand, but they said publicly in one of these posts, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this isn’t about for a lot of the projects that they’re open sourcing. This This isn’t about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey asking for poll requests and making a true community project. It was more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just saying, hey, if you want to fork it, here it is. But we’re going to continue forward in our own

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way. And that’s the that’s the way it’s going to be.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is heartening in the same way that Apple’s recent sort of opening up and doing things

⏹️ ▶️ John that previously they seem not interested in doing, even, you know, extensions or third party keyboards and

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. And I was this is another thing that people have always wanted Microsoft to do, like take the core part

⏹️ ▶️ John of your stack and make it open source for the same reasons that kind of the same reasons that Apple has

⏹️ ▶️ John open source the core part of its OS and everything, although hopefully with better results, and that like

⏹️ ▶️ John the lower level stuff, there’s not much competitive advantage to keeping that close

⏹️ ▶️ John source. And there’s a lot of advantage to people developing on your platform and to you as a platform maker to make it

⏹️ ▶️ John open source, even if you don’t get that much benefit of other people, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John every little bit helps. And it just makes it feel like it’s It’s a development environment

⏹️ ▶️ John where you can see what’s going on. The fewer black boxes, the better. If you’re debugging something, it would be

⏹️ ▶️ John nice to be able to have the source code to all the stuff you’re debugging. Now, obviously, that’s not the case on the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John It never has been. It’s not the case on iOS. There’s some parts of it that are open source, but then eventually you get into Cocoa and UIKit and

⏹️ ▶️ John AppKit and all that stuff. And that’s not open source, and I bet that would be great if that was open source too. So you have to

⏹️ ▶️ John balance, or these companies think they have to balance, what source do we keep closed and what source

⏹️ ▶️ John do we open up? there’s no advantage to just keeping it closed. And Microsoft, I’m not surprised

⏹️ ▶️ John to see this because it seems like Microsoft has long since realized that keeping this stuff, like

⏹️ ▶️ John as people stop paying attention to you, as you are no longer the big dog in the market and you’re not like,

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, Microsoft, they rule the entire PC industry. Like they don’t anymore. Like mobile is more important. Microsoft does not own

⏹️ ▶️ John mobile. If you continue to act like you are the most important

⏹️ ▶️ John company and you’re never going to show your crown jewels, it’s making you less and less relevant. If

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to bring people back to your camp, you have to be more open. It’s not a power play. It’s more of a

⏹️ ▶️ John realization of the new shape of the market. And I think it’s helpful. You’re saying, how will this affect your job?

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe you’ll come across something where you have some bug and you can’t figure out what’s going on. And it’ll be useful to be able to

⏹️ ▶️ John step through in the debugger a bunch of bottom level.NET code, stepping through

⏹️ ▶️ John the source. Maybe you could have already done that anyway, because the source was already available, but it wasn’t available

⏹️ ▶️ John in a way that was open source that could be integrated.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I mean Microsoft is just hoping that people will build on this and it will become a foundation

⏹️ ▶️ John for lots of other projects I mean the best thing that could happen to them is someone finally takes this core

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff and Build some great new thing on top of it because they can and they couldn’t before like they didn’t want to have

⏹️ ▶️ John to deal with That stuff that we need we need a language runtime and we need a good compiler

⏹️ ▶️ John And we want to be able to do our development a nice ID and we’re going to use that as a jumping-off point to build some bigger, better

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. But I don’t know what the odds of that happening are, but they’re non-zero now, I guess.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So just for grins and giggles, let’s say that Swift is not a thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not even in progress. Would Apple have used C sharp and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and or dot net to become what is now Swift? I think the answer is absolutely not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because they want total control. But but let’s assume that

⏹️ ▶️ John they could have total control with this. Couldn’t they? Isn’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think there’s going to be pieces that are missing in the same way that, um, shoot, what is it that that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a Darwin is the open source open source project, but there, but mock, or am I getting that backwards?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I’m thinking of where you could build most of OS 10,

⏹️ ▶️ John just like the closed source drivers and everything, like things for ATI that has proprietary codes, a bunch of like legal stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not like they’re hiding that stuff. It’s just that any code that involves anything that involves code that is owned by companies

⏹️ ▶️ John other than Apple, like, you know, video card makers or even like, there’s a bunch of drivers

⏹️ ▶️ John that aren’t open source. You can’t build a Yosemite kernel from the open source because it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff that’s not included in there. But for ownership, like, KHTML

⏹️ ▶️ John was not owned by Apple, but they took it, fork it and ran with it. WebKit is owned by Apple, you know what I mean? So they could,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I think that Apple would not adopt this open source or not just because knowing enough

⏹️ ▶️ John about the people involved in the process, this is not what they want. And so it’s not so much that, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John we would have taken.NET if only it was open source. Swift is a different direction.

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift is not common language runtime. It is not garbage collection. It is so

⏹️ ▶️ John many things that it’s not. So for that reason alone, they wouldn’t take it. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if the current set of people who make these decisions at Apple did not work at Apple, but a different set of people

⏹️ ▶️ John who did, this would have changed the math on can we adopt.NET. Suddenly it would become a lot more viable.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. And okay, so I agree with you completely there. Now, what is his name?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Andy Rubin is just creating Android today. Android does not exist yet. Does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he still use don’t call it Java Java?

⏹️ ▶️ John They picked they picked something that was not owned by them. You know, that was at that time, you know, sort of invented by

⏹️ ▶️ John sun. And like, they’re in a legal fight with Oracle over the copywriting API’s.

⏹️ ▶️ John And even though they’re using a different VM that they wrote themselves, like, they already

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing that they did end up picking Java. It’s not a clean. They didn’t make a clean getaway with that

⏹️ ▶️ John legally speaking. So I don’t see is any worse.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Their official strategy was just steal it. We’ll worry about it later.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, is it stealing like because it gets into the whole Can you cooperate an API because they did excuse me

⏹️ ▶️ John just rip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it off. We’ll worry about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not it’s kind of like a clean room re implementation. But like we know like there’s a spec is a public spec out there.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re gonna make our own VM. I’m I’m assuming they didn’t use any source code from any of the Java virtual

⏹️ ▶️ John machines It is their own thing that does things in a different way. It’s all just of like Oh, well, you implemented this all yourself and you

⏹️ ▶️ John wrote all your own source code But the API the functions the parameters the you know all that

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s copyrighted So they basically did a clean room re-implementation of Java I don’t know what the details

⏹️ ▶️ John are of like you can argue about what things got used where but I don’t I don’t like the idea of an API

⏹️ ▶️ John being cop a published API being being copyrighted. So I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John going to blame Google for doing this. But practically speaking, though, I don’t see how.NET,

⏹️ ▶️ John the current open source.NET, could possibly be any worse than the situation they’re currently in with Java. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it would be a better choice for them than Java. Because they would have to do less work. Like, they

⏹️ ▶️ John could take the virtual machine and everything free and clear. Like, it’s an open source license. It’s not like

⏹️ ▶️ John they have to reimplement it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Right, right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I also like C Sharp better than Java, so there’s that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. But that’s the thing is that C sharp. Yeah. I I’ve talked in the past

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to a handful of people about how C sharp really is good. And most,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most worldly developers in the Apple community, uh, at least appreciate it,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if not agree with me, but there’s, there’s certainly some that are like, Oh God, it’s Microsoft. I can’t stand it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now. And C sharp really is a really, really great, really robust language. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s. Even though it tries to be in many ways all things to all people, it actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does a pretty darn good job of it all in all. And it’s moving forward, but not at a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey breakneck pace. So it’s moving forward in a way that’s sustainable. There’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bugs everywhere, at least in any of the things that I touch in my day-to-day life. It’s a really robust

⏹️ ▶️ Casey language. And as much as I don’t have that much love for Microsoft, I really do love C Sharp. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I were to just flip a switch and become a full-time Objective-C or Swift developer tomorrow,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there are certainly things about C Sharp that I would miss. And there’s a lot that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really think they got right. And so I’m very curious to see, does this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey change how C Sharp is treated? Not from a like, oh, it’s good or oh, it’s bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But like you were saying earlier, John, is someone going to take C Sharp and really run with it in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey future? Or I mean, strictly speaking, I guess you could do that with VB as well. I mean,.NET is more than just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey C Sharp. But I don’t know. I’m curious to see what this brings.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s unlikely, because C Sharp is kind of… The reason C Sharp is,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, nicer than Java is because it got to learn the lessons of Java.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right? So someone went first, made a bunch of mistakes. C Sharp didn’t make those same mistakes.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think C Sharp has been developed steadily with a little bit more

⏹️ ▶️ John singular vision, let’s say instead of the sort of committee design of Java, it seems to be lurching forward and

⏹️ ▶️ John not quite as confident away. But at this point, both of those languages are of a vintage

⏹️ ▶️ John that people like. I’m not going to say people are more likely to build something on Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John if Swift was suddenly open source, but the kinds of projects that get built,

⏹️ ▶️ John like the kind of application that seems like the CLR is most appropriate for is

⏹️ ▶️ John I would guess server side stuff and like GUI client side stuff. But I can’t imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John the next WebKit killer being implemented in C Sharp on top of.NET,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just because

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like it’s still, there’s still this thing, and we can’t quite get away from it, of

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re either going to use C, C++, or one of these new breed of languages like Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John that aims to be as fast as them but gives you these high-level conveniences. Or as soon as you go up into

⏹️ ▶️ John something with garbage collection, server-side is totally OK okay with it, which is weird because server side is like the performance

⏹️ ▶️ John is so demanding there in terms of, you know, a specific, a specific performance

⏹️ ▶️ John profile is demanding there not quite the same thing as a GUI application. But for I’m thinking of Linux like

⏹️ ▶️ John the open source people, I don’t see them latching on to C sharp as their language. I mean, they’re the people who are going

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy with qt and everything. So they still seem to be stuck in sort of a lower level mindset. So I’m not sure maybe,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe one more generation of people to wake up and say, I’m going to write a new great thing. And I’m not going to do in c++ or

⏹️ ▶️ John C, why not just use C sharp? It’s like we need the infrastructure to be there for us. We need like every Linux distribution

⏹️ ▶️ John to come, not just with Mono, but with like a more officially

⏹️ ▶️ John supported like Microsoft blessed stack that’s in sync with Microsoft’s

⏹️ ▶️ John code releases to be able to use C sharp as your development language.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think a lot of the reason that the Linux community hasn’t embraced like Mono, for example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is because there’s such a bunch of neckbeards that love C and C++ so damn much. And granted,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I haven’t been a participant in the Linux community in seven, eight years, something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But at the time, it seemed like it was a,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was all about having a barrier of entry. And if you weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a god at C or C++, then then you know, you’re not good enough to be in our cool kid club.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And last I heard, that hasn’t really changed. But again, I haven’t paid attention in almost a decade.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know. Open source is difficult because whenever I think of open source stuff, I don’t think of the GUI stuff, even though

⏹️ ▶️ John there have been GUI things based on every language you could possibly imagine. All the way up to and including

⏹️ ▶️ John like Tickle or whatever, right? You know, it’s not it’s not as if people aren’t doing this. It’s just not one unified phase. Hell, there was a was

⏹️ ▶️ John the OpenStep port. What the hell was that called?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, someone someone ages ago, GNU step. There you go. Ported the OpenStep APIs.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s like, what if someone, what if AppKit was available for Linux? Boy, that would change things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, AppKit was practically available for Linux for a long time. But

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it wasn’t officially sanctioned. It was a small group of people making it. And it’s not like people are

⏹️ ▶️ John clamoring to make apps like that. So the most important things to come out of sort of the Linux open source

⏹️ ▶️ John community are things like KHTML and, you know, earlier Apache and stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ John that. like faceless applications written in low-level languages.

⏹️ ▶️ John Those are okay, but as soon as you get into anything GUI, it’s like, just don’t look to the Linux community for any, or file

⏹️ ▶️ John systems, another example, you know, coming from ZFS, coming from Sun, BTRFS, like

⏹️ ▶️ John those things tend to come out of the open source world. And so if.NET and C-sharp want to help in that regard,

⏹️ ▶️ John they can give some new tools to that crowd, but it’s not, you don’t see anything coming out

⏹️ ▶️ John of there that’s like anything higher level than that. Can you think of like an exciting

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that is not faceless that has come out of the open source slash Linux community in

⏹️ ▶️ John the last decade or so that has made an impact on the wider world of computing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wireshark, Audacity, both nerdy tools.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Atomium, also a nerdy tool. Someone said Git,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s faceless. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Git needs a million front ends on it to make it usable. And Git

⏹️ ▶️ John is not only a back-ended faceless, but it’s just gross.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like even the Git commands that you use in the command line are themselves front ends to like five other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco commands under the hood that are actually doing the thing you want to do.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John Git

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a great example of user interface, even in a faceless application.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Git is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly what you would expect from the creator of Linux making something complicated.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like version control and distributed version control are already very complicated problems.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Add to that the creator of Linux making the one that he wants to use, and Git is exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John what you’d expect that to be. Oh, here’s an example. Selenium, someone suggested Selenium. That’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of server-related. Do any one of you guys use Selenium? I guess there’s a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John tools that are either web-based or have to do with testing things that have to do with the web

⏹️ ▶️ John that probably count, maybe. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco PHP BB? No. Of course,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John of regular people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have have

⏹️ ▶️ John interacted with that. I mean, Xamarin has had more of an impact because they let you write iOS apps,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Like that whole that whole strategy of you can use this other stack to write

⏹️ ▶️ John things that’s cross platform, right? You can you sort of shared core of an application and you

⏹️ ▶️ John deploy on iOS and also on other platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s right. I looked at Xamarin back when it was mono one or mono touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one, excuse me. And at the time anyway, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was exactly what I would have done if I was trying to write a cross-platform

⏹️ ▶️ Casey setup for iOS, insofar as basically they just wrote

⏹️ ▶️ Casey glue classes where if you had, I don’t know, UI activity

⏹️ ▶️ Casey view controller, whatever it is, in Objective-C, you’re going to have the exact same thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in C Sharp with basically the same API, just, you know, things translated to be a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little more friendly to the C Sharp world. And the C Sharp classes were just really heavily annotated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with attributes and whatnot to describe what is supposed to happen. And so what that meant

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was, and this is true, I believe, of MonoDroid or whatever it’s called, Xamarin for Android now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so basically what that means is, if you’re going to write a cross platform app, you would presumably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have the same business logic across both iOS and Android, and those would be the exact same classes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey completely shared, etc. But you would be pretty much compelled to have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey user interface specific for each platform. This is in contrast to something like a PhoneGap, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is all JavaScript-based, and they try to make the user interface code

⏹️ ▶️ Casey generic amongst both platforms as well. And PhoneGap does a reasonably good job given what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is. So, for example, when you ask for, I think it’s, maybe I’m thinking of titanium, actually, it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey matter, one of the JavaScript ones. When you ask for tab bar, you’ll get a UI tab bar in iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’ll be at the bottom. And if you ask for tab bar in Android, you’ll get whatever the Android equivalent is, and it’ll be on the top.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it’s still trying to be all things to all people, whereas Xamarin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the time, anyway, was not that way. And you would have to definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey write separate user interfaces per platform.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you would share all your core logic and your sort of your business objects and everything like that. So I think that

⏹️ ▶️ John C sharp already probably has done more to bring or

⏹️ ▶️ John Xamarin and monotouch have done more to bring Microsoft’s tools to the wider GUI community than probably

⏹️ ▶️ John the accumulated mass of every GUI effort that has come out of the Linux world.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Anyway, it’s just interesting. I’m very curious to see where it goes. To be honest, like I said, I don’t know that it’ll affect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much unless somebody, like John had said, embraces this to make some wonderful new thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know, I was somewhat surprised to see it and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey excited to see what comes of it. Now, before we move on, out of curiosity,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what do you guys use at work or in retirement for you, Marco? What

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you use for version control, if not Git?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I use Git for the same reason that a lot of people use Git, which is that GitHub is really good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that if I want to use a lot of open source anything, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I want to open source a library, if I want to open source something, generally speaking, you need…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is wise if you want to have any contributions or any interaction with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other developers, it is wise to use GitHub. And therefore I use Git. I don’t know. There’s a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco areas in my life where I kind of pick like the alternative team and for whatever reason I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t do that this time because there’s a lot of downsides to that approach a lot of times. Like when I bought the DVD plus RW

⏹️ ▶️ Marco drive that was dumb. So many things that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I’ve done. As long

⏹️ ▶️ John as you didn’t have DVD RAM then you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine. I did not have DVD RAM. I don’t know why there’s a DVD RAM emoji. DVD RAM was never popular.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not like it was just outdated. Like it was never ever popular among anybody. But regardless,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did not buy almost I was tempted to buy DVD RAM because it’s so much better for data integrity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It actually is way better in so many ways for integrity, but I resisted and instead bought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco DVD plus RW back before they were combo drives, which was very stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But anyway, yeah, this time I didn’t go for the alternative team. I went for the big team and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just said, let’s root for the Yankees and it’ll be easier. And hey, Hey, I made a sports metaphor.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I was about to say.

⏹️ ▶️ John Git is not the Yankees, please.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is that up to date or is that outdated information?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, Git was never the Yankees. So what do you use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at work,

⏹️ ▶️ John John? Oh, you know, it’s not you have a choice at work. I use Perforce at work. And

⏹️ ▶️ John for the centralized version, non-distributed version control system, so not Material, not Git, not BitLocker,

⏹️ ▶️ John like the old school style, a sort of CVS subversion style, I like Perforce

⏹️ ▶️ John better than any of these other centralized ones I’ve used. Yep, completely agree. It has many

⏹️ ▶️ John things not to recommend it. And it’s so wants to like,

⏹️ ▶️ John so the decentralized ones come on the scene. And they all work according to a paradigm that is totally foreign

⏹️ ▶️ John to Perforce, right? And so it can’t change. It can’t change its stripes. It can’t be like, now I’m decentralized.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just not. It’s like everything about it, you know, it’s baked in to the design of Perforce. It’s never going

⏹️ ▶️ John to be like Git or Mercurial or something. But it feels the need to add weird

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of half-hearted marketing features, like the P4 Shell feature that showed up a few years ago.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s like, just don’t even try. That’s not, ugh, I don’t know. So Perforce does bother

⏹️ ▶️ John me every time I think about how much easier this would be on one of the more modern version control systems.

⏹️ ▶️ John But if I just go backwards into the old mindset,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s my favorite of an old, outdated lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I used Perforce at my very first job, and this was 2004. And at the time, I really liked

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, but obviously the world has moved on, like you said. So what, if you were to do a personal project right now,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or if work asked you, you know, hey John, what would you like to use? And the whole company will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use that. What would you, what would you recommend?

⏹️ ▶️ John I would use Git, but I would hold my nose the whole time. Like, one person in the chat room

⏹️ ▶️ John apparently has never heard people say that Git is gross. Git is totally gross, not in the functionality that

⏹️ ▶️ John it has, but in the user interface. And yes, command line programs have a user interface and Git’s user

⏹️ ▶️ John interface, When you design a program, the user interface is sort of, you have to build sort of the user model

⏹️ ▶️ John of how this program works, right? You’ve got the model of how the internal guts of the program work, and you have to provide a user

⏹️ ▶️ John model and a set of vocabulary and a series of nouns and verbs that expose

⏹️ ▶️ John the functionality that you’ve made possible with your application in a friendly way, and Git totally fails in that, just totally fails.

⏹️ ▶️ John The words they pick for everything, the options they use to represent those words, the whole big structure

⏹️ ▶️ John of the Git subcommands and the flags and how they go to it, and the different, oh, it’s just terrible. I mean, there’s a million web pages about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is a total user interface failure. But you know, the functionality is great

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s free and it’s open source and GitHub exists. So there are many other things to recommend and you know, it comes out ahead

⏹️ ▶️ John in net net, but that doesn’t mean it’s not gross. I mean, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, have you played with Mercurial, which I cannot pronounce apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because was it Daniel Jalkit that was on a tirade about that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Jalkit’s still rocking the Mercurial, I think. He made the more

⏹️ ▶️ John elegant choice, but it’s just like, you know, it’s it’s swimming against the tide, right? Because everything, like so

⏹️ ▶️ John much infrastructure and is built around Git and people just expect you to use it. And it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John if Mercurial had won, it’s like, you know, if Betamax had won instead of VHS,

⏹️ ▶️ John but bottom line is, you know, VHS won. And so here we are. That’s a better analogy than the

⏹️ ▶️ John Yankees, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Here it is, Marco. You tried that one time and this is this This is what you get for it. I’ll never

⏹️ ▶️ John try again. Yeah. In the chat room, someone whose name I’m not going to try to pronounce says,

⏹️ ▶️ John Mercurial is basically Git with fewer features, a better UI, and a slower implementation. Speed is actually

⏹️ ▶️ John a concern. Speaking of operations in Git, and someone from the chat room will correct me within 30 seconds as

⏹️ ▶️ John soon as they hear this if I’m wrong. Scale linearly with the number of files, which is fine if you have

⏹️ ▶️ John a small repository. At work, we have a ridiculous, gigantic repository

⏹️ ▶️ John that is way too big. And Perforce is actually faster than Git for doing common operations.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s not a slam against Git. That’s a slam against how we manage our code.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that is something to consider. And that’s another reason. Mercurial is not a clean win over Git.

⏹️ ▶️ John It may have a nicer interface and a more well-thought-out sort of way that it describes its

⏹️ ▶️ John functionality. But Git has a lot of developer time behind it. And Git has a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ John features. It can do a lot of amazing things. And the tools and the ecosystem built around Git make it more valuable than

⏹️ ▶️ John mercurial.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cool. On that bombshell, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Mandrill,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Squarespace, and Hover, and we will see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over. They didn’t even mean to begin. Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was accidental. And you can find the show notes at,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re into Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s, So that’s Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey list and a RCO a RM anti-marco

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Arman-si-r-ac Because

⏹️ ▶️ John of the agreement

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you have with Analog.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, how is your baby monitor doing?

⏹️ ▶️ John What is this agreement? I’m not caught up in Analog, even though I heard a recent one live.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mike had said, mostly jokingly, that he is going to… Actually, I don’t think we’ve released

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this one yet. This might be the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one… Well, he’s proposing some kind of agreement between the two shows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that most of the feelings will go on their show because most of the tech is going to go on our show.

⏹️ ▶️ John Denied. Yeah, I think I remember here. Now this is

⏹️ ▶️ John ringing a bell. That’s total bogus. Reject this offer immediately. immediately. Furthermore,

⏹️ ▶️ John declare war against that podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, that’s awesome. The baby monitor is good. We basically have the same baby monitor that you have.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But no, baby’s good. He’s every day is a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey different, but in ways I can’t describe, which is the oddest thing. He looks a little bit different,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of acts a little bit different. And again, I wish I could tell you a specific way in which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s the case. But it just Every day is just a little bit different. When you’re that young, I mean, he’s two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey weeks today, actually. It’s just everything is expected in some ways to be different. Like today we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey noticed, actually, here’s an empirical example, or a specific example. We noticed that I think he’s starting to be able to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cry as in generate tears. Obviously, he wails and moans on occasion, sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey often, but I don’t think he was able to generate tears until tonight. We saw,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, wait, wait, I think that’s a tear, you know? So that’s new. But I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean, all in all, everything’s fine. Still sleeping more than expected, less than desired,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but you know, it’s all good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, as some general advice, things change quickly. And like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in six months, he’s going to look completely different. Oh yeah. Six months

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after that, he’ll look completely different again. he’ll you know of course select different he’ll get more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco abilities what I would recommend is you probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do this but like don’t forget to take pictures and don’t forget to take video

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would suggest leaving your camera out like leave it like on the coffee table or somewhere like on a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kitchen counter leave it out so that taking a picture of him

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t be doesn’t require setup like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can always just grab the camera and take a picture you know make it make it very casual make it make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it like an everyday easy thing to do if you and again

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and don’t forget to take videos whether they’re just iPhone videos or fancy camera videos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is fine you know it doesn’t it matters less for video with like the technical quality of it but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco video it really captures time and captures a moment in a way that a lot of photos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know they can but video just captures a whole dimension of it and so like you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t like don’t go like six months without taking a video, you know? Because what you’re going to see is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re going to look back in a year and be like, oh my God, I can’t believe he used to look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. Or I don’t even remember that time when he was doing that. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does change so quickly, especially during those first two years.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it’s funny you bring that up because a friend of the show, underscore David Smith, actually came down this morning.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had the morning off from work. And so he came down to visit and meet Declan. I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had our fancy cameras basically sitting on our coffee table just about always, so either Aaron or I can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey grab it and take a picture. And at one point, he allowed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Aaron and I to hold Declan for a moment. And I mean that in a good way, not in a bad way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so all of a sudden, I heard the shutter going in the background because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dave’s a nice guy and he picked up the camera and started taking a few pictures

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the three of us, which I actually, that reminds me, I haven’t gone back to look, and I’m sure they’re gorgeous because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he’s a really good photographer, but it’s because it was just sitting there, and because he knows

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I wouldn’t mind him doing that, in fact, I appreciated it, you know, he was able to take a few shots

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us, and I got to assume that at least one, if not several of those, are gonna be really awesome, especially because it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey often that you have all of us, all three of us in one shot, because usually it’s either me or Aaron taking the picture,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I hear you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that was a good move by Underscore.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He’s the best.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you have a picture taking? First of all, are you going to have formal pictures taken on any sort of schedule?

⏹️ ▶️ John And if so, what is that schedule?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I need to know your schedule.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So it depends on how you define formal. We are taking pictures every week. I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, like you have a professional photographer take them of all of you, basically.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We haven’t really talked about it. We did have professional shots taken when we were at the hospital,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which if you’ll permit me to go on a rant, I can go on a rant about, but I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about other than that. I was thinking, and I haven’t talked to Aaron about this yet, maybe like every year we might do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, especially in the beginning when he’s still changing, you know, all the time. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey necessarily feel like we need to do that every year forever more, but I don’t know, remind me of that after I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey done this for 18 years straight. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should ask Aaron about it because you haven’t had this discussion before. She may have a different plan in mind.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, very much so. I mean, who knows, but we’ll see. I mean, I’m just happy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we have friends and family around that will take pictures of us with a decent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey camera and that we have a decent camera. But obviously, there’s something to be said for professional shots. And so when we were in the hospital,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and this isn’t going to make it in the release show because it’s stupid, but it pisses me off. When we were in the hospital,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the blessed hospital photographer company comes around and says, hey, would you like us to take pictures?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I knew this was coming because a co-worker of mine, wife does it, but for a different company. So I was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, yeah, sure, you know, take some pictures. And so they set up Declan in like, basically, she took the end

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Aaron’s hospital bed, which had all white sheets and like did some magic where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey she fluffed the sheets in such a way that it looked like a freaking like set, like a photography

⏹️ ▶️ Casey set. And you know, put Declan in it and, you know, took pictures with Declan on his

⏹️ ▶️ Casey side and on his back. And then we were holding him. And then there was one that’s really adorable where that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey his feet with our wedding rings on it. And so there were only about 10 or 20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shots that we got in the mail because of course we paid for them and blah, blah, blah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the thing that really bothered me was when the woman was in there, the photographer was in there,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey she was really, really nice and seemed to be very good at what she does. And she was using either a Canon

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or Nikon DSLR. I don’t recall exactly what. Well, I get these pictures in the mail

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and among other things I got a CD with the digital files on it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And these pictures that I got in the mail, the file

⏹️ ▶️ Casey size of each of these pictures that came off a DSLR that mustn’t have been more than a year or two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey old was one and a half megs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What? Yeah, you definitely got the resized JPEGs out of

⏹️ ▶️ John something. they’re selling you in the hospital is always, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John anything you get inside a theme park. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey exactly. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s so true. And the doubly annoying thing was just on principle, not because it mattered, but just on principle,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not only was the JPEG hyper compressed, I think it was like 2,500 pixels by 1,500

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pixels or thereabouts, but yeah. Right. I mean, you, especially Marco should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know how funny that is. But, um, but not only that, they deliberately stripped all the EXIF data.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do I need that EXIF data? No, of course not. But the fact that some way during their whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey workflow, they stripped out the EXIF

⏹️ ▶️ Casey data, that’s just insane to me. And so obviously it’s been post-processed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in some way. And so I wrote an extraordinarily angry yet mildly polite

⏹️ ▶️ Casey email to them saying, are you freaking kidding me? You should be giving me raw files for the $150 I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey paid you. But I would I would just be happy with the un-** version

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the J of the compressed, you know, the JPEGs off the camera. I would really like a copy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of those or my money back. And I got an extremely short email back from them saying…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Too bad. It’s no, no, it actually it said, basically, we’re shipping you something don’t throw

⏹️ ▶️ Casey away the or you you can feel free to throw away the thing you already have when the new thing arrives.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. I don’t know if that means that they’re sending me a new CD with different files, if they’re sending me a CD with the same

⏹️ ▶️ Casey files. I have no idea, but I’m hopeful that perhaps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will eventually be vindicated and they will send me files that are bigger than 1500 by 2500. Good luck

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with that. Oh, I know. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no chance.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you think $150 is expensive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John to

⏹️ ▶️ John get the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey digital

⏹️ ▶️ John versions of professional pictures you had taken, maybe you should

⏹️ ▶️ John factor that into your schedule you’re planning.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, we should have Tiff come in if she’s around because this is like a big part of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the photography business model and it’s very challenging if you are a customer looking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a photographer who will give you the digital files at a reasonable cost,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially like and just and give you the right to print them yourself if you want to and post them to Facebook and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything. That is not common among photographers. It’s slowly becoming more common,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s still very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John uncommon.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s common, but they’ll charge you a bazillion dollars. They’ll charge you so much money that you are deterred from ever

⏹️ ▶️ John doing that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, the interesting thing about this, though, was to their credit, they did on the CD that came

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with these shitty versions of the digital pictures, they actually had a PDF,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which was a copyright release for personal use. And that was extremely surprising to me, because I remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when we were interviewing photographers for a wedding, and this was in 2007,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the guy we ended up going for very clearly was extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey particular about how we were going to use the digital files he gave us. And he did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey give us unwatermarked, completely unmolested JPEGs of every

⏹️ ▶️ Casey picture he took. And in fact, when I asked him if he was going to strip the EXIF data, he looked at me funny and said, wow, I’ve never had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyone ask me that before. But that being said, he lectured

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us like 13 different times about how the only way you can use this is to print things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for yourself and your family, anything else, and he will basically take us to court. And again,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the hospital pictures, it was very nice of them to include a copyright release.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know why it would ever be an issue, but nevertheless, if it is an issue, it’s right there and I can print it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and say, no, no, no, look, I’m just printing it for myself. I’m not trying to sell it. Here’s the copyright release.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I remember talking to Tiff about this at one point a year or two ago, just out of curiosity, because it struck

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me weird that he was that into holding the copyright for these pictures. And my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey understanding is he wanted to be able to resell the pictures he took of us

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to wedding magazines and bridal magazines and wedding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dress magazines.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s not the real reason, because you can have co-copyright.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco photographer can retain the copyright of the pictures that he or she takes, but can also grant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you the rights to do whatever you want with them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think that’s what basically sort of kind of happened with these hospital pictures. It was not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly clear what happened with the wedding photographer pictures.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s well and you know, especially like the older photographers, like photographers who have been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco working like before digital even like, you know, old school photographers, They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make such a big percentage of their money from the prints and the books and all the crap that you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to buy after the wedding. They make so much money from that that if you ask them for the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco source, whether it’s negatives or digital files, to go do whatever you want with,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reason why they don’t want you doing that is because that’s gonna cut into a lot of their money. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a lot better, it’s a simpler business model if you just charge more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up front. just say all right well you know I if I need to make two thousand dollars from your shoot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather than charging a thousand dollars for the shoot and then six hundred dollars for each book that you want to order

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and of course you want to get one for your grandparents and one from your parents and one for yourself and one for this and like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know instead of doing all that just charge two thousand dollars up front and and then just you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco let them buy prints at cost and that’s what tiff does that’s that’s been tiffs I wish she come

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in here and tell you this. That’s Tiff’s entire business model for her photo business.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s how she does it. She just charges more upfront and gives people digital files.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because what most people want to do is like post them to Facebook and send them to their friends and stuff. No one gets prints anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey And she has integrated with a big professional

⏹️ ▶️ Marco printer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and she just offers those prints at some tiny margin above cost to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it worth her sending the files in her. She’s basically offering them at cost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so people can get professional prints made but most people don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s what most people want. Most people want that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of their photographer and the younger photographers are more likely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be willing to do that but it’s still a problem when you get like one of the old school ones who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still wants to do things the old fashion way where you spend hundreds of dollars for prints after the fact.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and it’s funny because just the other day, I don’t know why I did, but I went looking up to try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to find the photographer, or wedding photographer’s website to see kind of if he was, you know, still around or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever. Definitely not, he’s definitely not a wedding photographer anymore. So I’m pretty sure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m okay on the copyright stuff because apparently he’s not really making money from it anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, 75 years after he dies, you can do whatever you want with them. Hooray! Yay,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco US

⏹️ ▶️ Casey copyright law! Yeah. But yeah, so we’ll see what happens. I should be getting this new CD in a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week or two. But it also strikes me as extremely peculiar that it is the year 2014

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m still waiting on a CD to get digital copies of pictures that were taken

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two weeks ago. And you probably paid quite a premium for that CD.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, hell yeah. It was around $150 And we did get a few prints out of it, but to your point a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey minute ago, basically it was the CD is $130 and or something along those lines. And for $20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco could get like 13 prints.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Again, I’m making up the details, but something along those lines. And so at that point, it’s like, well, why not just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get the, you know, 10 prints or whatever and for the, for the $20. And so we got like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a humongous picture of Declan. That’s like 15 by 10 inches or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and see and why not just charge $120 for the shoot and have them email you the photos Exactly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly. That’s that’s like they’ll make more that way. It’s actually like they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wasting their money making this stupid printed crap And like and nobody wants it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah, I don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, don’t forget to actually make prints though because you want to have everything in digital you want the original files

⏹️ ▶️ John But if you want the aliens to dig up pictures of your child’s after or human civilization is wiped

⏹️ ▶️ John out, you’ve got to have paper ones so they’ll get compressed with all the rest of the stuff and maybe be preserved

⏹️ ▶️ John in some little bubble and they’ll be able to find those. Because they won’t be able to read your digital

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. Even for your things. Like if you have a catastrophic data loss or something, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John good to have prints of your family and relatives’ houses.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we’ll see. But I’m very anxious to see what happens.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I had somebody in the chat. I think it was Brian Ash. Somebody said something along the lines of, what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey happened with my email was a secretary read it, thought that the CD was damaged, and I am about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get another copy of the exact same CD that I already have.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Which is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John true. We just took formal pictures, we’re on a yearly schedule at this point, and we just took them, what,

⏹️ ▶️ John yesterday actually, and the CD they gave us for the first time was unreadable. So that was a shame.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can you get a replacement?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah, we

⏹️ ▶️ John got a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey replacement. It

⏹️ ▶️ John was it was unreadable in a way that revealed the first set of terrible Yosemite bugs

⏹️ ▶️ John that I’ve seen is if you stuck on a readable CD and finder freezes and eventually everything freezes and I

⏹️ ▶️ John had to hard power down on my Mac, which was sad. Oh, that’s cool. It doesn’t even say like this

⏹️ ▶️ John disc is unreadable or like, you know, it’s just it was totally useless. And does it

⏹️ ▶️ John while spinning the CD at high speed? Yeah, I tried it in both of my optical drives, the optical drive

⏹️ ▶️ John on the MacBook Pro and the optical drive my Mac Pro at work, which didn’t freeze. The

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac at work and the Mac here didn’t freeze, but my Mac Pro did. Anyway, it was sad. They

⏹️ ▶️ John put it on a thumb drive for us and gave us a new CD, so it was fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, Tiff actually started, usually for her bigger photo packages, she

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would always get these beautiful custom CDs printed by the photo printing company,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with custom booklets and everything. The problem is, who has a CD drive anymore? Those are on their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way out for most people’s computers. It is very possible if you make a CD for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a photo client this year, they might not own a computer that can read it. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so she finally started switching over to a thumb drives for the, for the big clients and for the small ones, she just sends them a Dropbox

⏹️ ▶️ Marco link. And that’s all most people need. Like all this physical media is so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quickly becoming outdated.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When we got the Synology, one of the first things I did was I took our two or three DVDs full

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of wedding pictures and immediately put them on the Synology, not only because I was scared

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that eventually we wouldn’t have a DVD drive in the house, but even more so, and I think, John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’ve talked about this a lot in the past, what if those DVDs eventually rot to the point that I can’t read them anymore?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, I have tons of optical discs that are probably bad. Actually, I pulled a bunch of old anime and stuff, I

⏹️ ▶️ John had all the optical discs, and I think most of them are good, but that’s the thing with no data integrity, I have no way of knowing.

⏹️ ▶️ John I put them all in the Synology, but until and unless I watch every single one of them through at 1x

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey speed. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know which one of those have gone corrupt. I’ll never know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So yeah, so that’s wedding, excuse me, not wedding photography, that’s baby photography

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the year 2014.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, we talked tech. Mike should be happy with that. Yeah, Actually, that did kind of work out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Captain. I didn’t think of it that way. That’s pretty funny.