87: Not an Accurate Representation of My Mousing Skills18 Oct 2014
Chairman Honeycrisp let Granny Smith spend a bit too much time with the Supreme Allied Commander of Super Secrecy.
- Apple's event: Yosemite, iPad Air 2, Retina iMac
- Unfunny funny skits
- Retconned Retina iPad Mini
- The A5 lives on for another year or two
- Apple's ASP strategy tax (John, previously)
- The new iPads
- John's iOS device plans
- Authy two-factor auth app
- iMac Retina 5K
- John's Review
- Buy the iBook!
- Buy the Kindle eBook
- Buy Ars Premier to get all the things
- About John's review
- Lattner's tweet
- Mike Ash's Friday Q&A
- Igloo: An intranet you'll actually like.
- Mandrill: Integrate, deliver, track and analyze — email infrastructure from Mandrill. Use promo code accidentaltech for 50,000 free email sends per month for your first 6 months.
- Squarespace: A better web starts with your website. Use coupon ATP for 10% off.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s how long it takes me to reboot.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yep. Although I think there might still be some spinners on some chrome tabs and some finder windows finder windows
⏹️ ▶️ John are usually the last things to get spinners off of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is are you talking are you referring to like those like wake from sleep spinners like what since Mavericks or since line
⏹️ ▶️ John the spinners that are in the upper right corner of a finder window when it’s trying to just display the contents not the
⏹️ ▶️ John I here is a fake screenshot of a window and I’m going to put a giant spinner or not those.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve never even seen the ones you’re talking about. I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ John I know because you have SSDs. I don’t don’t seem to work either. You get spinning disks and about four million
⏹️ ▶️ John files on them, literally, and you get to see all sorts of spinners. You get to see Chrome tabs die
⏹️ ▶️ John with the frowny face because they just assume the world is broken, they give up. You get to see dock icons
⏹️ ▶️ John stop bouncing in the dock. Have you seen that lately? No. So it’s something most people don’t even know about.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s so bogged down that they can’t bounce?
⏹️ ▶️ John No, so there’s a certain, I don’t know if it’s a number of bounces or a number of time, But at a certain point, the OS gives up animating
⏹️ ▶️ John the bounce. It’s just like, it doesn’t mean the app is hung. The app may eventually launch,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s just like, look, this is just taking too long. And it just gives up bouncing. There’s still no light under it. It’s still in the process
⏹️ ▶️ John of launching. Eventually, the little indicator light will appear under it. I see it all the time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s amazing. Part of the reason I haven’t upgraded my machine is because it’s so unusable because
⏹️ ▶️ John want to deal with it. I’ve almost bought an SSD so many times. So many.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, actually, if you want a good deal on a new Mac Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, save it for the show.
⏹️ ▶️ John I told you, $5. That’s a good deal.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Someday I will take that offer. No, I won’t want it then. If you’re willing to wait long enough. Right. On
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an infinite time scale.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, Jesus, here we go.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not how that works. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I
⏹️ ▶️ John X’d out all the items in follow up except for one, because we do have a lot of follow up, but I’m trying to trim it for
⏹️ ▶️ John today’s show. Good, good. The one thing I wanted to follow up on was on last week’s show,
⏹️ ▶️ John which was so long ago now because we delayed the show for the Apple event, I was excited about the fact
⏹️ ▶️ John that the GameCube controller adapter for the Wii U was going to let me use my GameCube controller for
⏹️ ▶️ John any game on the Wii U that also supported the Wii U Pro controller. And when I saw that on some random
⏹️ ▶️ John website, I didn’t believe it and I said, I need confirmation of this. And the website
⏹️ ▶️ John linked back to Nintendo’s official website that’s owned by the company And right
⏹️ ▶️ John there on plain text on Nintendo’s own website, it said that, yes, you can use your GameCube controller with this adapter
⏹️ ▶️ John for any Wii U game that supports the Wii U Pro controller. And I was very excited and we recorded last week’s podcast.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then right after the podcast was over, or maybe it was like the next day, but shortly thereafter,
⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo itself and all the articles that had cited Nintendo itself issued a correction that, oh, no, just kidding.
⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, you can only use it for Smash Bros. Sorry about that. So I was sad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, it makes me sad that you were sad.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, like, that’s just the worst ever. You know, it’s kind of like these rumors where you don’t trust it until you see it. It’s like seeing something
⏹️ ▶️ John on apple.com saying, you know, you know, you can use the the new iMac
⏹️ ▶️ John as a retina display for your Mac Pro. And you have like a day of that where you’re super excited. And then the next day, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John says, Oh, actually, no, you can’t. Sorry, that was a mistake on our website.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nice. All right. Do we want to talk about the event first? Or do we want to talk about your review
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Come on, you missed the chance to say so how’s the review?
⏹️ ▶️ John right. You guys can pick what we have enough time for both of them because we’ve only done that one item of follow up so
⏹️ ▶️ John you can pick which one you want to talk about first
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So we are recording this on Friday night, the 17th
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of October and yesterday there was another Apple event. This time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talking about a lot of stuff we already knew about and then some new iPads. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think the first thing I should note is that the streaming for me, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was streaming to my iPad mini that is now sort of but not really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco old. No, no it’s new. It’s now the iPad mini 2.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It got upgraded. Yeah, that’s true. It is new yet the same. Anyway, so it’s streaming
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to my iPad mini which is connected via the HDMI adapter to a TV in my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey office that worked pretty much flawlessly the entire time. And that was a welcome change
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the utter disaster. That was the iPhone keynote. And I wanted to ask you guys,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you think that’s because nobody cared about the iPad keynote and there were a lot fewer viewers?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or do you think that Apple actually got their stuff together or a little column a little column B?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I’d say it’s definitely a lot of column A and maybe a little bit of column B. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every year, the iPhone event is always by far the more important and the more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the more watched and listened to one. Like if you asked if you ask people who run the big sites who do live blogs,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ll tell you the same thing, where like the the iPhone event is by far the bigger event of the year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And and, you know, people do care about the iPad and stuff, but it’s it’s a lot fewer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco non nerds who will actually go to the trouble of watching the stream live.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, last time they had not just performance problems, but just even if there was only one person listening,
⏹️ ▶️ John they would have heard someone speaking in Chinese over half of the thing, right? So that’s not a performance problem. That’s a you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John have your wires crossed kind of problem. Yeah. Or do have your wires crossed. And so this was at
⏹️ ▶️ John the town hall. And you’ve got to think there’s a home field advantage there, where it’s their database, their network connection,
⏹️ ▶️ John their network people, all their own infrastructure, their video guys, where
⏹️ ▶️ John it seemed like there was a TV truck that perhaps was not affiliated with Apple that was involved
⏹️ ▶️ John in the iWatch event. I can still call it the iWatch event, because we called it that before
⏹️ ▶️ John we knew what the thing would be called. So it’s going to be forever be the I watch it. Anyway, I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know if that’s the case, but it just seemed like when they they’re in the Flint Center and this other big venue,
⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t have control over every part of the experience of broadcasting. And it just fell apart. Whereas when
⏹️ ▶️ John they do it in their little town hall thing or wherever they did the iPad event, they control everything. So,
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, no problems with streaming here. I had it running on two different streams. Then the game I played was
⏹️ ▶️ John try to get a stream that’s farther ahead, because one stream would be like, you know, seven seconds ahead of the other
⏹️ ▶️ John one and I’d reload it just for the hell of it to see if it would jump forward. But other than that, no drops.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, you know, this time, this event and the iPhone event I watched in the office.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this time what I did was I made sure that I had TweetBot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey always visible because I’m a really heavy user of, what is it, spaces? Where, you know, you have multiple virtual desktops.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I made sure that TweetBot was always visible and I engaged the pin the timeline
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the top thing, or I forget, I forget, there’s a better way of describing that, but anyways. So basically
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as all these tweets come in, the timeline is always automatically scrolling to the top.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that was both the best and worst way to watch this keynote,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I felt like I was thoroughly entertained by
⏹️ ▶️ Casey watching all these tweets go by with the exception of a thousand freaking dogs, which I was really bored of very quickly, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey then again, so were the dogs. And so it was almost more work watching the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Twitter stream and I was almost more interested watching the Twitter stream than I was the event, which probably
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaks to the quality of the event.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, when you saw them doing just like demo after demo of things we’ve seen before, let’s go over the
⏹️ ▶️ John adoption numbers, let’s show you what’s in these different OSs and like not just mentioning them or putting
⏹️ ▶️ John a bullet points on a slide, but like here, let’s show you iOS 8 again. It’s like, are you kidding me? You knew there was not gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John be a big, exciting one more thing at the end of this keynote. It was just going to be this
⏹️ ▶️ John little dog and pony show. And then all the stuff that we knew was coming, which is fine, but like, I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know why you need, I guess they feel like they have a captive audience, but why do you need to redemonstrate iOS 8
⏹️ ▶️ John and Yosemite that long for this type of thing? Just get in, get out, be done. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John it wasn’t that bad. I thought it was fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so they did all these demos. I do think that Federici, and I’ve said this several
⏹️ ▶️ Casey times in the past, my favorite presenter. He pulls off the really dorky
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of dad jokes, I think, better than anyone else. I think Q tries
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to, and it doesn’t always land well, which is probably how it would be if I was presenting these jokes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But nevertheless, I love Craig. I think he does a wonderful job presenting.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know I’ve said this a thousand times, but he’s so much better now than he ever used to be.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will never forget that first presentation. Gosh, he’s so much better now. It’s almost you could almost
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say that it’s that I appreciate him more having seen that first presentation in like 2011 2012
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I thought I thought it was all really good And I thought the call with Stephen Colbert as these silly ridiculous
⏹️ ▶️ Casey calls go was one of the better ones
⏹️ ▶️ John So who’s obsessed with the celebrities who’s who do we think it’s Tim Cook is obsessed with the celebrities?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. It’s weird
⏹️ ▶️ John so I mean someone is because Steve Jobs was not in general a Steve Jobs like to have a musical guest at the end and
⏹️ ▶️ John and he would schmooze with them and all that stuff. That was his thing, but really limited amount
⏹️ ▶️ John of stunt casting in the keynote because Steve Jobs was a star of those.
⏹️ ▶️ John He felt like he should be there. But now it’s like, you know, it’s just, you just come to expect it now.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I thought the Colbert thing was fine. Like the problem with having Colbert on is even
⏹️ ▶️ John over a phone, which I couldn’t believe they did it over a phone. He wasn’t over, it didn’t sound like he was over a voiceover IP because the quality
⏹️ ▶️ John was terrible. Like he was on a POTS line, it sounded like really bad, right? But even over that, you can
⏹️ ▶️ John see for the three or four little stilted lines he had to read, it was like, see guys, this
⏹️ ▶️ John is what an actual performer is like. I mean, don’t blame them. They’re executives at Apple. Like, they’re not actors,
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not comedians, which is probably why they shouldn’t do comedy skits in the middle of these things. Like, don’t plan it out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Be spontaneously funny or pretend to be spontaneously funny. Don’t go into a skit. But Colbert’s line
⏹️ ▶️ John delivery, even when reading this silly script, was so much better than the other side of the conversation. So
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t bring real comedians on. It just highlights how you are not a real comedian, but I thought it was fine all the people who
⏹️ ▶️ John were like Marco Just went I know a lot of people were cringing and couldn’t handle the embarrassment of it It’s like whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean even even the silly thing with Bono like that that was painful because both Tim and
⏹️ ▶️ John Bono are not natural in the environment of trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Whatever. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like exposition plus comedy plus drama plus whatever they’re trying to do. It is not their strengths Stephen
⏹️ ▶️ John Colbert was funny Craig was fine the little handshake thing. I thought was funny funny,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, Eddie Cue not being able to do it. The two guys who did do the handshake were funny.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I forgot about that. That was even worse.
⏹️ ▶️ John I thought that was cute. And like I said, like I tweeted when it was going on showing the rumor site with the, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John the spaceship campus taking off. That was dumb, but I got, I just was so excited to think about someone
⏹️ ▶️ John had to go to their graphics department and say we need a fake rumor, make up a fake rumor and then make an awesome graphic.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like the quality of that fake flying, uh, campus, uh, building rumor thing was
⏹️ ▶️ John so much higher than He’s like a lot of effort and talent going into a throwaway gag
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s that’s an area where they could help like Colbert in the daily show because those guys got to put together some motion Graphics
⏹️ ▶️ John or some little picture to be up to the right of the talking head in five minutes Whereas Apple some poor guy at Apple probably
⏹️ ▶️ John sweated over that flying Circular building but anyway, I whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t get too hung up on on that part of the thing. And we didn’t expect great
⏹️ ▶️ John things out of this presentation anyway, and so we got what we got, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would rather have a presentation that’s 10 minutes shorter than have one that includes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco awkward and really painfully unfunny skits, because they don’t need that.
⏹️ ▶️ John You aren’t amused a little bit by them? Like, if I was
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco going to cut
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, I would cut that intro video showing everybody happy to get iPhones. Never do that again, as someone tweeted,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I agree. Yeah, we’ve seen it too many times. I would cut all the demos of things we’ve already seen demoed, because this is
⏹️ ▶️ John a low, you know, not many people are watching this. The people who are watching it already know what iOS 8
⏹️ ▶️ John is about. Don’t re-demo that. Maybe do a little recap of Yosemite, fine. And then I would
⏹️ ▶️ John keep whatever the best segment was. So maybe keep the Colbert thing in and then drop the other one. But,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I just think someone has, someone likes celebrities.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t know if it’s all the way at the top Tim Cook likes them, or as individual VPs like them, or they just
⏹️ ▶️ John want to find excuses to talk to their favorite celebrities, which I wouldn’t blame them for. Hey, you know, what advantages
⏹️ ▶️ John are there of being a senior vice president or CEO of Apple? Well, I can meet
⏹️ ▶️ John all my favorite celebrities. All right, go. I’ll leave that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I figure it’s gotta be Tim Cook, because you can see, like, when Tim is involved, you can see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he’s, like, giddy about, like, how incredibly happy he is, and, like, no one else is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nearly as excited as he is about what’s happening, you know? Like, I think it’s definitely, like, could tell like you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cook is the one who’s really into celebrities and that’s why they keep happening. But man I wish they wouldn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it just doesn’t work. It’s boring, it’s not funny, it’s painful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it detracts from the presentation. Like it detracts from the whole reason we’re there. It is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco these are good presentations. They have good things to announce. There’s no reason to bring them down in this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird awkward way. Like it I don’t know. I just I don’t see why it’s worth it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, I disagree. I’m more with John in that, although they were kind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of silly and lame, at least it shows that Apple has a little bit of personality and it’s not just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a completely boring, stodgy, this is what we’ve come up with. This is the new
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPad. This is the new iMac. Hooray. Like, I don’t know. I felt like it at least
⏹️ ▶️ Casey added some color. Probably got beaten to death, but it at least adds some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey amount of entertainment. And Colbert’s line about, you know, what I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey see on my wrist, or what I look at my wrist, my wrist get to work, I thought that was hysterical.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was, but the problem, you know, like as John said, the problem is like the delivery overall of the whole thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is usually like too slow, too forced, too awkward. And you know, and whether that’s the side of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just the Apple people or both sides varies on the skit, but they don’t need it because it doesn’t, see, it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem to me like they’re commuting, they’re communicating personality or adding personality. To me, it seems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco forced to script it, because we know these things are very scripted. We know they’ve rehearsed, we know that almost every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco line is considered and written beforehand.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that wrist line, I assume, was an ad lib. Yeah. Because Stephen Colbert said, I
⏹️ ▶️ John have to read this. They give him a script, and he looks at it and goes, oh, this is crap, and then I’m assuming he made that line himself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe, or maybe they approved it. Whatever the case is, it’s very clear these things are,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at least on the Apple side, extremely scripted extremely rehearsed and they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco read at an extremely slow pace which is good when you’re presenting details of a product that the press has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to write down but when you’re doing some kind of like entertainment bit it just feels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really awkward and forced and it it doesn’t feel to me it doesn’t feel genuine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it feels like we thought this would get you excited and we’re kind of excited to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something with a celebrity so we’re doing it in this like planned artificial forced way,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it just does not feel genuine at all.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it breaks up the flow of the presentation, which is the biggest downside for it. But in the absence
⏹️ ▶️ John of genuine enthusiasm by the presenter about the tech details or the product features,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like this kind of was kind of filling the void. And I don’t think the filler is the problem. It’s the void that’s the problem.
⏹️ ▶️ John There was, I’ve said this many times, that whenever Steve Jobs showed something, there was some aspect
⏹️ ▶️ John of it that he was obviously super excited about. And sometimes that aspect was stupid, but his excitement
⏹️ ▶️ John was genuine. And he was, whatever it was, he’s excited about a volume button, he’s excited about, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John the edge of something, he’s excited about a particular software feature. He was super excited about it. And
⏹️ ▶️ John his enthusiasm, despite whether you yourself were excited about it, was infectious. You need something like that to drive
⏹️ ▶️ John the presentation. And sometimes I get the idea that like, at this point, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John Craig Federighi is no longer particularly excited about iOS 8 extensions. Cause he’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John he’s done with them. Like he was excited about doing them. He did them. He’s talked about them on stage 10 times.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now they’re going to ship. He’s probably worried about bugs and iOS 8.1 and iOS 9 and whatever he’s worried about.
⏹️ ▶️ John He can’t muster the enthusiasm to tell you how excited he is about iOS 8 extensions, what they mean for the iOS platform and
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff like that. So to fill in that void of enthusiasm,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s like, oh, now we’ll have a celebrity skip because they are excited about talking to Stephen Colbert.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that, I think, is the worst part of it. Not that this gets in themselves, but just that they seem to be
⏹️ ▶️ John filling in for something that’s missing. All
⏹️ ▶️ John Let’s talk about actual products. How about that?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We certainly can. So they retconned my beloved
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Retinapad Mini, and now it’s the iPad Mini 2.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, congratulations.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, so now it makes even, it will make Stephen Hackett even more upset when I call it the Retinapad Mini,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which that’s kind of enjoyable, I suppose. But yeah, so it’s now the iPad or the iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mini two. I got that right, I think. And what did they drop the price $100, is that correct?
⏹️ ▶️ John Not even, not even right. It’s 249, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, that’s the old one, which is still for sale, which is crazy that they are still for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco another year, or at least for now, they are still selling the A5 based
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad mini one, which is based on the iPad two, which came out in 2011.
⏹️ ▶️ John And the iPod Touch is the same as the Mini, isn’t it?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the A5, right? It’s still
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so, I mean, even though they didn’t announce a new one, they’re still selling the old one, I assume.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, yeah, so this, as a developer, that makes me nervous and a little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco frustrated because, you know, the A5 was a great chip when it came out in 2011, in early 2011 at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. But it is now no longer a great
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chip. It is, you know, if anybody who tries to run iOS 8 on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an original iPad mini, an iPad 3 which uses the same A5 CPU just with a bigger GPU.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So iPad mini, non-retina, iPad 3, any iPod touch,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the iPhone 4S. Those are all the A5 devices. If you’ve tried to run iOS 8
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on an A5 device, you know that that’s not a great experience. It works, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s pretty rough. And that’s because they’re now still selling devices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that use that. That means that chances are,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so iOS 8, obviously we’re stuck with this for the next year, but what’s going to happen next year when iOS 9 comes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out? Is iOS 9 going to still need to support this because they’re still going to be selling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it when it, they’re still going to be selling original iPad minis when it comes out? It’s constricting everybody.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s constricting, it’s especially bad for game developers or anybody who depends on a lot of GPU power.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The funny thing is like they showed in the presentation that that wonderful big hockey stick graph
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the GPU power increase over the iPads lifetime. And the hilarious thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that all these models that they’re still selling the second dot on that graph, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. That’s the iPad. That like they’re still selling that
⏹️ ▶️ John today. Is it the case that developers can’t do anything with their apps
⏹️ ▶️ John to basically not make it work on the A5 devices?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is correct. Developers cannot exclude A5 devices. There’s no mechanism to do it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Developers used to hack around this by, like, they’d figure out some hardware feature that was added. They’ll be like, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, this requires a gyroscope. That didn’t exist in the iPhone 3GS. They would figure out ways
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. But there are no more of those ways that would exclude only the A5 devices. And it’s also against
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rules to do that anyway. So if Apple caught you doing that, excluding based on a hardware thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you didn’t really needs to be excluding for they would ding you for that so there’s really no way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s it sucks for game developers who rely on this because not only do they have to either still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco support the a5 devices which is a huge burden on any kind of modern graphics and you know modern stuff like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that or they have to like say in their description which many of them do warning do not buy this if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have devices XY and Z and then
⏹️ ▶️ John deal with all the one-star reviews and the angry people that you can’t respond to is you don’t know who they are yeah
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right because nobody reads the descriptions so So you get every single person who buy and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it sucks if it’s paid up front, then you can’t refund it. And it’s just a bad situation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for so many reasons. This is why I think we know in the industry
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the idea of the strategy tax. And the strategy tax basically like some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of a big tech company, their strategic needs are holding back
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some other part of the company’s strategic needs. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we knew like in Microsoft, this was like Office and Windows fighting and having to preserve Windows everywhere,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco holding back their mobile strategy and stuff like that. I think with Apple, their profit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco margins on their hardware and someone deciding that they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to keep pushing devices lower and lower and keeping them around longer and longer, that is the Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco strategy tax that we’re seeing, besides their being massively overcommitted on software needs.
⏹️ ▶️ John It doesn’t have to be though, because like, I think it’s good for them to have a cheap
⏹️ ▶️ John product. They’re a big hang up and it’s not like, it doesn’t fall out of their strategy of we need to be
⏹️ ▶️ John at $249 for iPads. The problem is that with the exception, I guess, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John of the iPhone 5C, they just refuse to make a fresh low
⏹️ ▶️ John cost device. They always just go with last year’s. And it’s like, I’ve talked about this many times and when the 5C was
⏹️ ▶️ John coming out that that I thought they should do it and they kind of did with the 5C, but not quite. Like you can make a better product
⏹️ ▶️ John at that price point if you use modern technologies. Like I know that you already have the factories up and going I
⏹️ ▶️ John know you’ve been making this. I know there are economies of scale, blah, blah, blah. But, and I guess maybe there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John margins, like you said. Give up a little bit of margins, make a new $249 device that, you know, has
⏹️ ▶️ John an A6 or A7 in it. Figure out a way to do that. Like start from scratch
⏹️ ▶️ John and make a intentionally low cost device. So save money where you can, use a crappy camera, so
⏹️ ▶️ John on and so forth. But don’t just say, well, we have this device and now we can make it for cheaper. So done and done.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’ll just keep it around because things age out in that old hardware. And like the
⏹️ ▶️ John old USB 1, USB 2 example from the PC world from ages ago, eventually it becomes more expensive to put
⏹️ ▶️ John USB 1 in your PC because USB 2 is everywhere and you can’t even find USB 1 anymore. And there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John no real equivalent for that for iOS devices. But just if you take a clean sheet
⏹️ ▶️ John and say, with modern technology and modern prices on components, can I hit that price point,
⏹️ ▶️ John give up a little bit of margin, and just make a better product. A better product because it gives a better impression to your customers, maybe put
⏹️ ▶️ John a little more RAM in it. A better product because it makes your developers happy. This keeping around of the
⏹️ ▶️ John exact old product for years and years, iPod Touch, is just not a good look,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. Well, and it isn’t just keeping around the old. It’s even the choices you get with the new. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for instance, the 1664 128 split. Yeah, we already went through that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they did it again, but it’s like, what did we expect them to do? They’re not going to turn like that decision
⏹️ ▶️ John was made, you know, a year ago.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and the reason they made that decision was not so they could make an extra $3 on the 16 gig one by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not putting a 32 gig chip in it. It’s trying to push you up to the middle model, right? Exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, this is they did some they did an amazing trick with the new iPhone pricing. have managed to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco increase their likely average selling price by $200. So you figure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so many people would have been okay with 32. If 32 was the new baseline,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people would have bought just the baseline. That’s why.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if this plan is going to work, though. Do you think it’s going to work? Do you think it’s going to push people up? I know that seems like it’s the
⏹️ ▶️ John aim. It’s a typical anchoring thing where you try to push people up, but I just wonder if people are going to be like…
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how flexible people are to go up to them. Because people who buy the bottom model, do they even know,
⏹️ ▶️ John do they know how much storage they’re using? Do they know 16 of what? Do they know how many of whatever those 16 things are that
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re currently using?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I suspect most iPhone owners have run out of space before. So that’s, I think like people buying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco their very first iPhone might not be fooled or might be fooled into getting a 16.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I think people who are buying their second or third or fourth iPhone are gonna be way more likely to go for a bigger
⏹️ ▶️ Marco size than the base model because they’ve probably faced a storage issue before.
⏹️ ▶️ John if only upgrading to iOS 8, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. That’s yet another big, and so here’s the thing, by continuing to sell these small
⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices, oh, and the other half of that is, so they have this 1664 thing, so that, again, if 32
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the baseline, everybody would just buy 32. They
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have kind of pushed a lot of people to go upmarket and to raise their average selling price
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that way. Also, keep in mind, the iPhone 6 Plus is $100 more, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re selling a lot of those as well. So the entire pricing of the iPhone line is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think very carefully designed to push that average selling price upwards.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you look at the new iPad lineup, you can see that when the first mini came out,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that certainly pushed the average selling price down. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t think it has caught back up to where it used to be even now. But if you look at the new lineup, so you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the old crappy iPad mini at 250, fine. Wasn’t it was it 280 before
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was is that roughly the same price to 69 I remember something like that. A
⏹️ ▶️ Marco retina iPad is now 300 instead of 400. The iPad mini 3
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is just the retina mini but now also available in gold and with touch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ID. No other changes gold gold option and touch ID $100
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more and then you have the iPad Air, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco old one, which is still for sale at $400 also, and then the iPad Air 2, which is actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a substantial upgrade for $500, the original price of full-size iPads.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All of this, and of course the same 1664 on most of those models. So all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of this is clearly made to push people up the line.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is very carefully designed for upselling. It’s very obvious. whole product line,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you look at their pricing intervals, they’re very, very carefully spaced out so that there’s always something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco else that you or a salesperson can talk yourself into to go like, oh, just a little bit more, we’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get you this, until you hit the absolute most you can spend. And that is on one side of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple, the hardware profit margins side of it, where they need to maximize
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. Then you look at what it does to developers. Now developers,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all, have to write to all these old CPUs forever. Keep in mind, not only is that affecting all of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco us, who Apple could kind of not care less about, like, you know, if life is a little bit harder for third-party developers in some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way like this, Apple doesn’t care that much, but Apple itself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is one of the biggest iOS developers, if not the biggest iOS developer, and so Apple has to deal with this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too. When they’re making all of their built-in apps, when they’re doing all of their own, development,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the development of the OS itself, what the OS can even do. Apple is restricted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco by their own hardware margin needs on their development side.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that affects lots of things. It also affects the whole problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with iOS 8 upgrades and the very likely cause of it being a disk space issue.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That upgrading to iOS 8 requires almost 5 gigs of free space. and Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has been selling 8 and 16 gig devices in mass for a long time and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it’s like there’s the percentage of people who who can’t do it over and yes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know you can plug into iTunes but no one knows that no one does that the the amount of people who
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have an iOS 7 device and would upgrade except they don’t have 5 gigs of free space
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is substantial and so even that that’s the result of previous years,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple skimping on memory to boost their margins and drive people to hire models. Now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is affecting them this year. That’s affecting their development teams. And so this is all related. This is why it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a clear strategy tax. The hardware margins side of Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is restricting and causing problems for the software side of Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the developer side of Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I think for the most part, I agree with what you said. One thing I take a little bit of issue with though
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is your thought that a lot of regular people would get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not the baseline phone, not get the 16 gig phone. And I think in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the same way, like you just said, that not a lot of people realize, oh, you can plug into iTunes and fix all these problems to do the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS 8 upgrade. I don’t think a lot of people really get into the intricacies of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which iPhone to buy. And I haven’t like interrogated my coworkers,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but certainly I’ve looked around the office over the last year as the 5C became a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing, as the 5S was a thing, and now as the 6 and 6 Plus are a thing,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe one of my co-workers got the exact same phone I did, the 6 with 64 gigs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Another one just got a 6, and because she is still on a family plan with her family,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey apparently her parents just went and picked up a phone for her. She didn’t even know what capacity it was. Now, this is just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one example, but it’s an indicative example. Additionally, there have been a handful of people
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that have shown up with 5Cs. Now, I can’t think of any developers that have,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but- Manson has one. Oh, yeah, that’s true. I just met in my office. But yeah, but either way,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey these are typically like project managers or HR people, and a lot of them have ended up with 5Cs.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And these are people who work in a developing company. We do software
⏹️ ▶️ Casey consulting. And so, So if there was a quote unquote regular person that would understand why
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you would want a bigger phone, these are the people that that would do that, but they don’t get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey them. And I wonder, I haven’t again, I haven’t asked, but I wonder if maybe it’s because, you know, it’s hard to justify
⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting a hundred or 200 or 300 or shoot $700 iPhone over this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey equally pretty looking Android phone that’s like either free or a hundred bucks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever the case may be. And heck, now that I’m thinking of it, pretty much Aaron’s entire
⏹️ ▶️ Casey family is all on Android. Generally speaking, not exclusively, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey generally speaking, because those phones were considerably cheaper than iPhones. And I think that plays a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey much bigger role for your average consumer. That being said, I agree with you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that if somebody wanted to upgrade at all or was at all privy
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the fact that 16 gigs is not a lot, they are absolutely without a shadow of it outgoing to get a 64 gig
⏹️ ▶️ John But the 5C is pretty awesome though. Like in terms, like not in terms, we know what’s wrong with it, right? But
⏹️ ▶️ John it comes in colors, which is just huge. And it’s really comfortable. Like, is the reason Mandon got one, I assume,
⏹️ ▶️ John is because it’s just, it’s nicer to hold. Like it’s, if they had made, for example, a new low-end
⏹️ ▶️ John iPad mini, plastic color back, A6 or A7 instead of an
⏹️ ▶️ John A5, same price point, that would just be a better product all around, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John because you can’t underestimate the attractiveness if you don’t make it incredibly crippled,
⏹️ ▶️ John like give it eight gigabytes or something, the 5C. That
⏹️ ▶️ John plastic is durable, it’s attractive, it’s comfortable, it’s cheap. If you’re gonna give a little iPad to a kid,
⏹️ ▶️ John it comes in colors. These are all big selling points that are easy. They’re right in front of Apple for it
⏹️ ▶️ John to grab. And because the 5C didn’t do as well as they hoped, as far as we can tell,
⏹️ ▶️ John it was hobbled by other reasons, by the fact that it was alongside the much more desirable, what was it, the 5S that
⏹️ ▶️ John it came with. And so it was always the high-end model was going to win. And they kind of crippled
⏹️ ▶️ John it by giving it not so great specs and not really improving it. It was just like the 5 in a different
⏹️ ▶️ John case, maybe with a slightly bigger battery. I just wish they would make
⏹️ ▶️ John dedicated products for lower price points instead of just having this cascade. And the other thing
⏹️ ▶️ John with the storage, the RAM, like pick any spec you want that we complain about all the time.
⏹️ ▶️ John This has been true of Apple for so long for like, you know, since the 90s, since even before Steve Jobs
⏹️ ▶️ John came back, Apple as a company will get it into its head that like,
⏹️ ▶️ John some number is the correct number for some spec, where there’s gonna be like, every machine has four megabytes
⏹️ ▶️ John of RAM, like I’m going way back here, and it’ll have four megabytes of RAM, and it will be fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then the next year, the bottom line will have four megabytes of RAM, and you’ll be looking around go everyone else doesn’t have four megs at
⏹️ ▶️ John the bottom, and the next year will come in the bottom line will have four megabytes of You’re like, okay, is Apple not looking at the rest of the world?
⏹️ ▶️ John Nobody ships four megabytes of RAM anymore I’m like it goes through this and until it until it just seems insane you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John like surely this year They’ll bump it and then finally they bump it and it’s been that way, you know with Apple is actually in
⏹️ ▶️ John a good cycle The RAM now, they’re not really skimping their get they finally bumped every up to 16 But now it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a flash storage someone got into their head that you know, 16 gigs is perfectly good for
⏹️ ▶️ John the low-end model But just keep doing that year after year after year 16 16 16 the rest of the world is like
⏹️ ▶️ John are you kidding? Now first of all they all have sim slots and everything right now or not sim slots SD card slots
⏹️ ▶️ John and Stuff on the other side of the fence so at the very least those people buy something you just buy some cheap and probably Slow and
⏹️ ▶️ John probably crappy and whatever complain about your SD cards at least they have you know I could buy a faster SD card they want
⏹️ ▶️ John to spend the money They have the option to at least upgrade it apples things are completely sealed up And they just keep going with 16
⏹️ ▶️ John and so now we’re at like the tail end of the 16 cycle where it’s just it’s just crazy that they’re doing than this. It’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s hurting everybody. And if you want to pick out something to blame on the
⏹️ ▶️ John stereotypical Tim Cook character attributes, the fact that he’s an operations guy and wants
⏹️ ▶️ John to make all the numbers add up in the columns and
⏹️ ▶️ John make sure that he’s getting the best price for the best parts and the most efficiencies and everything,
⏹️ ▶️ John this would be something you could blame on that instinct. Whether it’s him or not, whether it’s other people, it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John Because again, this type of thing has been going on on Apple for a really long time. It happened under Steve Jobs. It happened before Steve Jobs came back.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it is exactly in line with his expertise
⏹️ ▶️ John at keeping costs down and profit margins high. But I
⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s over the line. And it’s really, like Marco said, it’s hurting Apple. It’s hurting customers.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not a good call.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and again, 16 is not the minimum. 16 is the lowest that they do on new devices. They still they will sell
⏹️ ▶️ Marco old devices with eight still yeah I
⏹️ ▶️ John know but like I’m talking about like the flagship product the fact you can get the flagship product with 16 And you get their flagship product
⏹️ ▶️ John with 16 last year And you get their flag
⏹️ ▶️ John what you know the world moves on prices go down like it’s just you’re just hurting yourself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and and it has to impact Tim’s customer sat You have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to imagine that you know the the experience of using a memory constrained
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac or a space constrained iOS device that it is a worse experience.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It has to be causing increased load at the genius bar. It is definitely causing worse experiences and people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have worse opinions of their Apple products when they run into like constant disk space issues and stuff like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is affecting them in other ways. That’s why I think this is long term. I think it’s a bad move.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they’ll learn from this if we didn’t talk. This was in the notes for a couple weeks now, but we didn’t talk about the iOS 8 adoption. And so they had to
⏹️ ▶️ John have speaking of this presentation that we’ve kind of wandered off from here. They had the slide up and said, oh, look
⏹️ ▶️ John at iOS 8 adoption. And to make the typical super impressive slide, they had to combine
⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 8 and iOS 7. You know what I mean? So they could show a big number,
⏹️ ▶️ John because iOS 8 adoption is slower. And granted, the decision to go with the 16s was probably made a year or two
⏹️ ▶️ John ago. It’s ancient history now. But the one ramification that I think Apple can clearly
⏹️ ▶️ John see is iOS 8 adoption is slower. Is it because of the bugs? Yeah, part of it’s because of
⏹️ ▶️ John the bugs. Is storage part of it? Like in their big meeting where they talk about why is iOS 8 adoption slow, one of
⏹️ ▶️ John the points that has to come up is the storage thing. And one solution is that, oh, we need a smarter install. It takes up less room. But the other solution
⏹️ ▶️ John is stop shipping 16 gigs as the low end storage size for years and years. So
⏹️ ▶️ John hopefully, Apple, being the learning machine that we think it is, will come out of this
⏹️ ▶️ John and say, we have made a misjudgment when we’re planning for the iPhone 8. We need to
⏹️ ▶️ John not be ridiculous with the flash sizes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we wandered off a bit, but let’s get a summary of the iPad minis,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and iPad’s mini, whatever, and then let’s talk iPad Airs. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it seems clear to me that unless you are in dire need of Touch ID on all your devices,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see no point in spending an extra $100 in getting
⏹️ ▶️ John I just agree with that. I know the pricing is ridiculous. I know that it is a ridiculous premium
⏹️ ▶️ John for if you want to look like, how much does it cost to put Touch ID sensor, whatever. But
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s no more ridiculous than paying an extra $100 for an extra 16 gigs of flash in terms of the physics
⏹️ ▶️ John and the cost of materials type thing. It’s exactly as ridiculous, right? But Touch ID
⏹️ ▶️ John is a tangible benefit. Once you have a device with Touch ID, you don’t want one without it. And
⏹️ ▶️ John having a mixed household with some Touch ID, or a mixed personal repertoire of devices that mostly
⏹️ ▶️ John have Touch ID, but then the iPad doesn’t, This is a case where I think much more so than
⏹️ ▶️ John the storage, they are charging $100 for a benefit that they think is worth $100 to some people.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I think they’re closer to being right that this benefit is worth $100 than an extra 16 gigs of flash or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and they also had to overcome the problem they introduced last year when the iPad Air and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Retina Mini came out, which was that the Retina Air and the Mini, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air is supposed to be the higher end device, but they were very, very similar because they both had the A7. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they both had the same system on a chip. The Air was something like 5% faster, but otherwise
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was minimal. And so the Mini became just as high end of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a device as the Air did. That was the fluke last year, where suddenly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mini became high end.
⏹️ ▶️ John That last year’s Mini was a good deal, relatively speaking.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly, and so this year, they basically upgraded the Air and not the Mini to create
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that gap again. Again, it’s all about ASP, it’s all about the average selling price. They want to push people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who want the best to not say, well, the iPad mini is just as good and it’s smaller,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I want that and it’s cheaper. No, if you want the best, Apple wants you to go all the way to the top of the line
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and spend that money with that profit margin. I can’t blame them, I mean, that’s business. I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying they’re evil for doing this.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, but what I’m saying, I think of the mini with Touch ID, whatever the hell number that is, three, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not a bad product. Relatively speaking, we’re like, oh, they just added this tiny thing and they
⏹️ ▶️ John M.A. it at the price. That’s true, but at least this one gives you like a real
⏹️ ▶️ John tangible benefit. Like that’s what they’re charged money for essentially. And it’s something you can,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s something that people appreciate more. It’s not worth $100, obviously. Like if,
⏹️ ▶️ John here’s the deal. If you were talking to somebody and they were trying to decide which iPad mini they should get, you basically just go right
⏹️ ▶️ John for their budget. Say, can you afford an extra 100 bucks to have this touch thing? And if you’re like, well, it looks neat, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. Then obviously you go for the cheaper model. it all comes. But if you happen if $100 here, there is not
⏹️ ▶️ John going to break the bank. And they’re willing to spend that amount of money. I’m not going to say even though you can
⏹️ ▶️ John afford it, even though you’ve got the money in your pocket right now and can buy that one, you shouldn’t because it’s not worth it because the touch
⏹️ ▶️ John ID sensor is not worth $100. Well, neither is 16 gigs of RAM, but you are flash, but you tell people do it anyways,
⏹️ ▶️ John like, it will just make your life easier. And if you can afford it, then then go for it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so I can get behind that assessment. The reason though, that I that I’m hemming and hawing about, or I guess
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even saying no, is for me, and I love my iPad Mini 2, I had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to think about that really hard, I love my iPad Mini 2, and it does not have Touch ID. And honestly,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the only time I really miss Touch ID isn’t when I’m unlocking the device, but is instead when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m using one password, because I have a reasonably long password, and typing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that constantly is a real pain in the butt. And so I agree with what you said that, hey, if you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can afford that $100, heck yes, absolutely go ahead and spend it. But to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey me, I don’t view it as a do or die feature, like say a retina
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it depends on how you use your mini. If you’re using it kind of like a phablet where you’re carrying it around with you, then
⏹️ ▶️ John like because you know, for the unlocking and unlocking, obviously, with a phone, you do it all the time, you want to have the passcode, you want to have the security.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if your iPad never leaves your house, maybe you don’t even need it locked. and then it comes down to like Touch ID,
⏹️ ▶️ John which I was gonna forget before, like yeah, iOS 8 suddenly makes Touch ID a much more useful thing than it was with iOS 7,
⏹️ ▶️ John because now, you know, one password and type, even if you never leave your house with it, that can be useful.
⏹️ ▶️ John Someone on Twitter has just mentioned that, and a lot of people have brought this up, I think I saw it on Daring Fireball as well, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John well, Apple is, you know, is using such a huge portion of the world’s, whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John it is, whether it’s the flash memory or RAM or whatever, and that’s why, you know, the iPhone 6 only has
⏹️ ▶️ John one gig of RAM, That’s why they only put 16 gigs of flash or whatever. And I think that’s mostly
⏹️ ▶️ John BS, because supply and demand are in a relationship with each other. Apple plans years and years
⏹️ ▶️ John ahead. They pay for the capacity they need. They pay for people to, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John build factories to add tooling. Like if you if you someone is there to buy
⏹️ ▶️ John it, some, you know, like it will work it out. It’s economic. It’s not like, well, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John only it’s not like, you know, someone’s picking coconuts. Like, well, we’re all out of coconuts and we can’t plant anymore. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John if there’s a demand, if there’s a demand, someone will someone will
⏹️ ▶️ John provide the supply. And Apple, in this case and in all cases, is so willing to sink huge
⏹️ ▶️ John amounts of capital up front to get the capacity to manufacture whatever it is they need at the volumes they
⏹️ ▶️ John need. So I don’t believe that supply is the problem, because as far as I know, there is no like natural resource
⏹️ ▶️ John or climate related issue or whatever that is like capping the amount of available,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, NAND capacity in the world, other than the thing that’s capping it is how,
⏹️ ▶️ John what the orders were put in, you know, two, three or four years ago, whenever the current capacity, you know what I mean? Like there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a lead time and everything, but there are inputs into the system and Apple is such a huge input that if it wanted
⏹️ ▶️ John to plan for, say, you know, three years from now, all of our devices are going to have
⏹️ ▶️ John double the flash RAM. They would start spending the money now, it would show up on their balance sheet and eventually
⏹️ ▶️ John the supply would be there for them. So I still feel like this is a decision Apple makes about what they want. It’s not like,
⏹️ ▶️ John well, we’d love to put more flash in there, but we just it’s just not available for us. That’s that’s a cop out.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. All right. But Marco, why don’t you tell us about something else? It’s really cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love to we got a new sponsor this week. All right. It is it’s from MailChimp. But the sponsorship
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is actually not for MailChimp. It’s for their email service called mandra. Well, it’s an email service
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too. But it’s called mandril. m a n d r i l l. mandril
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a scalable, reliable and secure email infrastructure service trusted by more than 300,000 customers.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s very easy to set up and integrate with existing apps. And it’s very, very fast. They have servers all over the world,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they can deliver your email in milliseconds. Plus, they give you all these reports, they have analytics,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have a very friendly interface to look at all the stats and everything. So your entire team from developers to marketers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can easily monitor and evaluate email performance. Now, they have you know, the MailChimp
⏹️ ▶️ Marco email service is for sending newsletters and stuff like that. Mandrill is for transactional
⏹️ ▶️ Marco email. So this is things like if your app is sending email from your app to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one person at a time. So it’s things like password resets, welcome messages.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you can do things like marketing emails and customized newsletters. But where Mandrill really specializes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in those things like password resets and those things where you have to get those to somebody, it’s very important that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they get through all the spam filters and everything, that they get there quickly, They don’t get great listed and all that stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s very, very, and you need great integrations with your software to do that. You know, because you need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your apps to be able to integrate with their API or their SDK, to be able to send these emails without a whole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of effort. So they have all this stuff set up for you. They’re very, very developer friendly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is made for developers. They have all these web hooks, they have analytics, all this crazy stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco On top of that, it comes with a beautiful interface for all the management stuff. So they have flexible template options
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for your messages themselves. They have custom tagging in the interface. They have all this advanced tracking,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco advanced reporting. Mandrill is the only email infrastructure service with a mobile app that lets you monitor delivery
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and troubleshoot from wherever you are. It’s also very powerful, scalable, and affordable.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But you don’t have to take our word for it or Mandrill’s word for it. They’re offering our listeners a special
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco He said 50,000 password resets per month. Hopefully your users aren’t that forgetful, but we all know they are. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway, thank you very much to mandrill. integrate, deliver, track and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco analyze. That’s their tagline for their email infrastructure service. Wonderful service at Mandrill. Thanks a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Mandrill for sponsoring.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we should probably talk about the iPad Air 2. And as someone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey who converted from a large iPad to a mini iPad, to be honest,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t find this that terribly exciting. However, the thing I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Casey most interesting or the two things I thought most interesting were the loss
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the rotation lock, or I guess it could also be a mute switch, and the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple SIM, which wasn’t even brought up during the keynote. And I actually think that’s the most intriguing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me. As it turns out, and I’ve talked about a lot in the past, you know, I have a T-Mobile SIM for my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPad mini 2, and it’s actually, it came with a Verizon SIM. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey flip SIMs back and forth on a surprising regular basis for a device that I very rarely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pay for cellular data on. And I really like being
⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to do that. Now unfortunately, in this case, Verizon isn’t part of this Apple-SIM agreement,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it is fairly US-centric. I think—what is it, EE? That has it in the UK, I believe? It’s pronounced
⏹️ ▶️ Casey EEE. So yeah, so EEE has it in—EE.co.uk.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But anyway, so— Hover. I think it’s a clever, clever, clever idea and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really like the idea of it just as much as I dislike the idea of losing the rotation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lock because I use that constantly on my iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, good talk. Glad everyone agrees.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I honestly I hardly ever use my iPad anymore so I have no opinion of this at all. Like I’m not going to get any of these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and yeah. I see why people like the iPad but I don’t. So
⏹️ ▶️ John I I like the big one. I’m due to replace my iPad 3 eventually. It’s not really I have
⏹️ ▶️ John so many other issues the hardware issues that I’m not like dying to get one but
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like it looks good. And you know, we talked in past shows that like about Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John being I’m more convinced than ever that Apple is tied to numbers
⏹️ ▶️ John for you things like battery life Like why do they make it a millimeter thinner and give me more battery life? That it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like they have a target battery life and they want it to be thinner And if they could reach the target battery life
⏹️ ▶️ John while also making it thinner And that’s what they do and that’s that is basically their very simple rule set So what’s the target battery
⏹️ ▶️ John life for an iPad 10 hours? Can you hit 10 hours and make it thinner? Yes, we can done
⏹️ ▶️ John like I don’t think there’s a lot of hemming and hawing Well, we can get 12 hours if we make it if we keep it the same thickness No,
⏹️ ▶️ John the rule is hit the target make it thinner. Can you do both? You can good good job bonuses
⏹️ ▶️ John all around So 10 hours, I guess it’s fine. I can’t even imagine how thin that thing
⏹️ ▶️ John is compared to my iPad 3 So they have to go to the store. I’m trying to touch them.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still kind of annoyed by the You know the iPad airs border being thinner
⏹️ ▶️ John because I always feel that’s one of the reasons I hate the mini Yeah, I hate the thumb rejection crap
⏹️ ▶️ John and I always feel like my finger I always feel like I can’t get a Secure grip on over that actually touching the screen
⏹️ ▶️ John and they made the borders thinner with the air and they’re still thinner and I just I think it will make the device a little bit less comfortable
⏹️ ▶️ John for me. But anyway, eventually I’ll get one. It’s going to be awesomely faster than my iPad 3. Screens
⏹️ ▶️ John better, lower glare, thumbs up. I’m totally going to get one unless they unless by the time I buy one, they make they introduce
⏹️ ▶️ John an iPad Pro or something.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So quick follow on question to that. Rick, do you know if you will get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey another LTE iPad? And does that relate to whether or not you’re going to be getting an iPhone?
⏹️ ▶️ John I will get another LTE one. All my iPads have been cellular and I use that capacity
⏹️ ▶️ John and I like it, so yes, I will pay whatever the insane, ridiculous prices that they charge for the super duper
⏹️ ▶️ John top of the line LTE. Like that’s the reason I keep these iPad 3. I paid, I can’t even remember how much I paid for it, but it
⏹️ ▶️ John was a lot. $900. Whatever it was, it was like a computer’s worth. And so I’m getting my money’s worth out of it,
⏹️ ▶️ John but yeah, I always buy it with cellular because I use it when I’m on vacation. Like I basically, I don’t bring computers on vacation.
⏹️ ▶️ John I bring a cellular iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, this is my first cellular iPad. my third iPad, but my first cellular one. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I always thought people were crazy when they said, oh, get the cellular one. But oh my goodness, I’m so glad I did. Now,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey part of that probably relates to me not being able to tether to my phone because I’m still grandfathered
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the AT&T Unlimited plan. But I still love having an LTE
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPad. And I suspect even if I could tether, I would still get one. All right, anything else
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the iPad hardware?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think, I mean, they did spend a lot of time the presentation kind of overdoing the thinness thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But again, I think that is kind of their big marketing point for the iPad Air 2
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because there aren’t that many more changes that would be very marketable to a mass audience.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t oppose that strategy. I did that post on Hypercritical a while back about the thinness thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a reasonable strategy, but it’s just so clear now. And I think it’s so much more reasonable with the iPad than
⏹️ ▶️ John the phone even because the iPad battery life, No one is like, oh, my iPad, my full-size
⏹️ ▶️ John iPad is constantly running out of battery. Like 10 hours is a reasonable target hit and it’s an honest 10 hours and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John fine. You know, whereas the iPhone, you’re like, well, you know, the iPhone battery
⏹️ ▶️ John life is so incredibly variable. Like if you’re an area with low signal and the thing is constantly searching and everything, it just kills
⏹️ ▶️ John your battery life. And then you do not want to be stranded without a phone. Whereas the iPad 10 hours has
⏹️ ▶️ John real solid 10 hours. You’re not using it as your lifeline to communicate with people and it’s probably
⏹️ ▶️ John fine. So I actually I approve of the strategy. It’s just that like every time they bring up that 10 hour, things keep
⏹️ ▶️ John reemphasizing it. It’s so clear that that’s what their requirements are.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. The other thing I wanted to briefly mention before we give Marco his two hours in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the sun to talk about his stupid new computer. Did you guys feel like Schiller
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was phoning it in or was it just me?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, other people said that. I rewatched it. I didn’t think it was anything wrong. I mean, Schiller’s always a little bit low key. Like I-
⏹️ ▶️ John what he’s like. That’s Schiller.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think that, I think he was the way he always is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. I mean, I felt like he was, he’s always reserved. You’re absolutely right about that. But I felt
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like he was a little kind of going through the motions.
⏹️ ▶️ John Sometimes he seems distracted, but it’s like, I don’t know what he’s distracted by. You used to think he’d
⏹️ ▶️ John be distracted by fear of Steve Jobs’ laser eyes offstage staring into the back of his head if he’s doing something
⏹️ ▶️ John wrong. But these days, Tim is off having a cup of coffee, probably, so.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right, let’s knock out one more sponsor. then let’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have Marco go on for two hours.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey great. I’m not sure it sounds great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I’m probably not going to go. I’m not going to talk that much about it. Anyway, I’m going to review to get to exactly. All right. So our
⏹️ ▶️ Marco last sponsor is igloo. Igloo is an internet you will actually like not internet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s hard to make an internet that anybody likes, but an intranet that you actually like also hard, but igloo
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco make parking lots. I haven’t checked. But it would not surprise me at all if they had a built-in parking lot feature.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe you could like pick different pavement colors. I don’t know. Anyway, it has responsive mobile design
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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, well not in person but it looks weird.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It looks interesting on the internet. So anyway, if you are one of the two people who bought the Square
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Blackberry, maybe you also use Opera. I don’t know, there’s these random people somewhere but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will actually work on your device as well. Igloo even works on your new plus-sized iPhone 6
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Plus right from the very start. You can review a document, you can post a project update,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can change admin settings, you can talk about how that U2 album snuck onto your iTunes library, all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from your phone, even if that phone is a Blackberry. Plus when you design your Igloo,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any change you make to the look and feel carries across all of these devices. It is very responsive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and has the mobile in mind right from the start. Igloo’s file preview engine is also fully HTML5
⏹️ ▶️ Marco file, you can preview in line, you can add comments, you can upload new versions, or assign action items
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right from your phone. It was also part of the Gartner magic quadrant, which is very important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for enterprise. So if you work in enterprise, and your bosses read the Gartner magic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quadrant report, you can tell them that Igloo is adequately enterprise because they’re in the magic quadrant
⏹️ ▶️ Marco report. They’ve been there for this. They’re now there for the sixth consecutive year, alongside tech giants
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Microsoft and IBM and stuff like that. In a report that values the size of the vendor, which in Gartner terms
⏹️ ▶️ Marco means viability, Igloo is praised for their responsiveness and customer experience.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really, and let me see they have a quote here from Gartner’s profile of Igloo. This is what it says.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Feedback from Igloo’s reference customers was consistently positive. They praise the product’s quick deployment, configuration
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and customization flexibility with self-service options for non-technical users, control over branding and information
⏹️ ▶️ Marco organization, and ease of use. They also praise the responsiveness of Igloo as an organization. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway, if your company has a legacy internet built on SharePoint or other old portal technology, and this is not the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fun kind of portal, but the game, this is like the old kind of portal like Yahoo, you should give Igloo a try.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Igloo is free to use for groups of up to 10 people. You can sign up at igloosoftware.com
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP. Once again, go to igloosoftware.com slash ATP.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So thanks a lot to Igloo for sponsoring our show. Once again, they’ve been a longtime friend and supporter of our show.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I completely forgot. I asked you, john, and then you effectively dodged. There
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was no iPod touch at this event. We have no indication that an iPod touch is coming.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah, the iPod exists. So yeah, the iPod still a thing. So what is your plan with regard
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to smaller than iPad mobile devices from here on out?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, probably gonna get an iPhone. I’ve had I’ve had a loaner iPhone for a little while Apple sent one
⏹️ ▶️ John because they took a lot of the functionality like the phone Integration with Yosemite they took
⏹️ ▶️ John that out of the iOS 8 builds that were out there. So if you want to test it with
⏹️ ▶️ John If you had iOS 8 GM and you couldn’t do it use a lot of these features you needed 8.1 so they sent me
⏹️ ▶️ John an iPhone 6 with 8.1 and I was using that and
⏹️ ▶️ John I as soon as I got it. I’ve been using it as my main actual phone So it’s giving me a feel for what it’s going to be like.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, like I said, I’ll probably eventually get one. There’s no iPod. What choice do I have? There’s nothing. There’s no other choice for
⏹️ ▶️ John me to get. I can’t use that iPod Touch anymore. I know you guys went through all this stuff with your iPhone 6
⏹️ ▶️ John a while ago. There’s one thing that I would add into the mix of all the things you talked about, about the screen size and all that stuff,
⏹️ ▶️ John is that the thing that surprised me most, even after hearing all your issues with the iPhone 6, was
⏹️ ▶️ John how much heavier it feels than my iPod Touch. I know it is heavier. I don’t know how much heavier
⏹️ ▶️ John it is. Can’t be that much heavier. I mean, they’re both really light devices, but, and I think my RSI is a factor here
⏹️ ▶️ John as well. So I’m super sensitive to changes in effort required from like, you know, fingers and tendons and stuff like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John But boy, it just feels like a brick. No case. I’ve been using it with no case since I’ve had it. It just
⏹️ ▶️ John feels so damn heavy. But yeah, that’s, I’m gonna have to get one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder if maybe, honestly, maybe you should get a 5S.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I hate that thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you feel like the iPhone has demonstrably changed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the way you go about your day? I’m not patronizing you, I’m honestly asking because when I got my 3GS,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which admittedly was a kind of different time, it dramatically changed everything. Because if I didn’t know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where something was, I could look at a map on my phone. If I didn’t know something’s phone number, I could look it up.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What did you keep calling it in the keynote lines? information phone or whatever it is. Uh, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so having an information phone just. Completely changed my world. Do you find that that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the case or do you find like it’s whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ John No. Well, you know, so I’ve had a surrogate information phone, like anytime
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I go anywhere with my
⏹️ ▶️ John wife, I have her look things up on her information phone. We use her phone for navigation in the car if we’re, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John like, so I’ve had that for a while. And if we’re, if we’re somewhere and we’re just waiting around and we’re bored,
⏹️ ▶️ John she’ll let me use her phone to read Twitter, like her, her Twitter and her thing I signed into my account because she doesn’t have a Twitter account
⏹️ ▶️ John so she just reads my Twitter so I read my Twitter on her phone and so having this I don’t know how long have
⏹️ ▶️ John I had this like a week or I don’t know but long enough I think it’s only been maybe three times
⏹️ ▶️ John when I’ve used it in that capacity once was when I was dropping my kids off one of their activities on the day
⏹️ ▶️ John the Yosemite review was published and I wanted to catch up it wanted to not fall farther behind on my Twitter so
⏹️ ▶️ John while I was like in the waiting area dropping them off and picking them up and stuff and then this
⏹️ ▶️ John place doesn’t have Wi-Fi. Some of their activities have Wi-Fi. In fact, a lot of their activities do have Wi-Fi. So I would use
⏹️ ▶️ John my iPod touch. But here I’m like, oh, I can, since I have my phone with me, because I use it
⏹️ ▶️ John in the car ride over to listen to podcasts, I can use it to read Twitter while I wait and wait for the kids to
⏹️ ▶️ John come. Right. And once at a dinner with some friends, I looked up something on it. But if I hadn’t, I couldn’t, my wife was
⏹️ ▶️ John there too. I could have had her look something up on it as well. That’s about it. I mean, like, it’s all stuff I’ve done before. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not, it’s not as mind blowing as your experience, you were like, I was never able to do this before. And now I’m able to, whereas
⏹️ ▶️ John now it’s like it’s slightly more convenient. I’m mostly, most of the experience to me is getting,
⏹️ ▶️ John coming to grips with this just gigantic device. I know it’s not even that big. But like this big, heavy
⏹️ ▶️ John device and the weirdness of how it feels. And the caselessness is a thing too. Because like I said, I’ve always
⏹️ ▶️ John had cases on my iOS, on my small iOS devices. I will have a case on one. But I’m using this one without a case just
⏹️ ▶️ John because what am I going to do, buy a case for a loaner? That would be silly. But I really love Touch ID. I’m such a total convert
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, it’s the best. I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John been using it on my wife’s phone. Obviously all my fingers are on her phone anyway. But having it
⏹️ ▶️ John on your own device, like I never had a lock on my iPod Touch. I put a lock on this as soon as I got it. I just use Touch
⏹️ ▶️ John ID and it’s just, it’s amazing. So yeah, I’ll probably get an iPhone 6.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why don’t you buy a case now, you can return it within 14 days if you’ve decided after
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that point that you will not own an iPhone 6.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m probably gonna get one. It’s just a matter of like, just getting everything out of the way and going through the whole thing
⏹️ ▶️ John and getting my number ported over from my old crappy phone and that’s gonna be a hassle because, you know, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t need to get, like I wanna see what the cases are like, I don’t even know which one I want yet, so I’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco get it sorted out. You want the Apple leather one? Yep. Have you used your information
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pod at all since you’ve had the review information phone?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh no, I’ve been intentionally avoiding it because I don’t wanna switch back and forth, I just wanna say, nope,
⏹️ ▶️ John you gotta use the big one. There’s only like, I think one or two times it once I needed to use
⏹️ ▶️ John the Google Authenticator app, which can only be on like one of your iOS devices or some crazy rule or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because I didn’t slow down.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re not using Authy.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I use the Google one should have using Authy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You should be using Authy. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John What’s better about it?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can have it on more than one device. It’s I think that it may optionally push some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the stuff server side, which you may take issue with. But but I really like it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s much prettier than the Google one was as of a year ago. I haven’t looked back since then.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I had to use it once for that, and then I had to pick it up once for something else related to, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John e-book testing, because when you load up iBooks on the iPhone 6, I have my
⏹️ ▶️ John media queries treated differently for sizing, so I needed an actual 5
⏹️ ▶️ John portrait style thing, so I needed to test that briefly. But for the most part, I’ve been trying not to touch it, because I want to be like,
⏹️ ▶️ John immerse myself in the 6 and then go back to my little thing and see how it feels.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right. So sorry for that quick aside. just wanted to find out. So… It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to be a short show. Yeah, it’s going to be a super short show. So before we get to the review, which is what everyone’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually waiting for, Marco, why don’t you tell me about your computer that you’re going to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get that I’m so enthusiastic about?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, desktop Retina have and then I’m getting it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, actually, that was pretty quick. That makes me more enthusiastic. Is there anything… All kidding aside, is there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything you have to add? Because you have been… And I’ve seen you. I’ve seen Sean Blanc. I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seen Jason Snell all hemming and hawing about, Oh, should I get the upgrade for this? Should I not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey get the upgrade for that? Is there anything you’d like to add about your strategy? Like, what did you and did you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey order yet? And if so, what did you end up ordering?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have I’ve mostly ordered through I’m ordering through the business rep for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the local Apple store because you get you end up getting a couple hundred bucks off. The big reason is that because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s being used for primarily software development in the state of New York, it is tax free.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that saves a few hundred more dollars so the total savings is something like 500 bucks doing it this way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or even more actually so anyway yeah I got it decked out top of the line everything because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it basically is as good as the Mac Pro or better for almost everything I do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the one exception of handbrake video encodes it is 15% slower however
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for everything else it’s 25% faster so it’s like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything single-threaded it’s actually substantially faster you know know I this is definitely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wasteful I’m going to lose probably as much as I’m saving on the sales tax on the new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one I’m gonna lose that in value when I resell my current Mac Pro but I said when I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I was buying this Mac Pro almost a year ago I said
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when desktop retina is possible I will do whatever it takes to get it and that’s how important it is to me a lot of people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t that important to them and that’s fine or a lot of people you know like they’ll They’ll like it, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re willing to wait until they buy the next computer two or three years from now, and that’s fine. A lot of people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are like Syracuse and won’t buy a generation one Apple product, and there are some benefits to that.
⏹️ ▶️ John What are you talking about? I bought the very first Power Mac G5, the highest
⏹️ ▶️ John this Mac Pro was, I guess it’s not the first generation, but it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the first generation
⏹️ ▶️ John this specific CPU in it. I mean, they didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco change the computer.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they’re all that. every
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco every Apple computer
⏹️ ▶️ John is the top I bought the top of the line blue and white g3 when it came out to I have no problem buying
⏹️ ▶️ John the first-generation top of the line thing I mean I’m wary about it like everybody else but it’s not like I have a religion against
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all right well anyway so I said I would do whatever it takes to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get retina on the desktop because it is that important to me I thought when I bought
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this Mac Pro that it would that it would be able to drive a retina monitor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it can drive 4k monitors and you can get the the Dell
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 24-inch 4k monitor and have it be roughly the right DPI to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco true 2x you can do all those things with it but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s it’s not great you have a desk covered in Dell monitors which themselves are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not amazing and also from what I hear very buggy and inconsistent in this usage
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can do it with the Mac Pro, but what I really wanted was a giant 27
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to 30 inch monitor like that that size class and 4k to do that is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco either everything is too big or you do software rendering and and you know and artificial
⏹️ ▶️ Marco scaling and that reduces quality and you might not notice it you know I don’t think you’d notice
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it on a 5k panel if you if you simulated a different mode on a 4k panel
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at 27 inches you might notice it we talked about this before so I’m not gonna I’m I’m not going to go further into it. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was assuming a 5K monitor was not going to exist for the next couple of years. That turned out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be wrong. I was also assuming that any desktop Retina monitor I would want
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be available in some kind of external form factor, and that would plug into my Mac Pro with no problems,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it would work just fine. That has been wrong so far. There’s the Dell 5K one coming
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out this winter. That might do it, but we don’t know yet. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Dell 4K ones had some issues for a while with running on certain
⏹️ ▶️ Marco computers, including the Mac Pro. Various things like enabling the MST thing. It’s complicated the way it works. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of a hack. 5K is even more of a hack because it needs even more bandwidth. It has to use two different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thunderbolt or DisplayPort cables. And the GPU has to be able to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco properly multiplex those together into one signal for one panel. and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s enough moving parts or things that are kind of on the edge of standards or not very well supported standards
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s enough moving parts here that I think the chances of the Dell 5k panel working without weird issues
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a Mac Pro are low so this this came this came out and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the combination of both 5k being available when I thought it wouldn’t be for years
⏹️ ▶️ Marco plus the much faster CPU speed that for single threaded
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use which is what I which what i’m usually limited by that pushed me over the edge where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco i really did not expect to buy a mac pro and then want to sell it 10 months later
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that’s what’s happening
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fun well that was actually a lot less painful than i thought
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah i mean honestly it’s what what’s most interesting about it is how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco relatively boring it is like they there’s no like weird tricks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to to how this exists.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s kind of weird. Two DisplayPort connections inside this thing. It’s weird enough
⏹️ ▶️ John that I’m glad that you’re going to take one for the team, and a bunch of other people are going to find out what are the weird issues.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m excited about the fact that they tout a power reduction, which means that it’s, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John so there’s other technologies involved with the screen. I don’t know what they’re doing to get the power reduction. I don’t know the details of it.
⏹️ ▶️ John But at least it means it’s not going to be like the water cooled, being the Power Mac G5. Like the water cooled,
⏹️ ▶️ John it can be just like at the hairy edge of what’s possible, but it is kind of at the hairy edge of what’s possible, just not in terms
⏹️ ▶️ John of power and heat. It seems like they’ve got that more or less under control, but I really just don’t know what
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s gonna be like for just day-to-day use, for gaming, for anything like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I really need, I would never buy one of these sight unseen. You’ll probably be okay
⏹️ ▶️ John considering the amount of time something spends in your house is low because something new and shiny comes along and you just need
⏹️ ▶️ John to make the new ones. But considering I’m sitting here next to a 2008 Mac Pro, I really want to know what
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m getting before I get it. And you know, my recent not so great experience with the Thunderbolt display, which
⏹️ ▶️ John is brought relatively early in the life of that product, although not sight unseen. I had seen them before. Like I just,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’d like other people to sort this out. So you’ll tell me all about it when you get one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, definitely. And you know, I see a lot of our friends on Twitter. Gruber said he ordered
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one and he buys a computer like every 10 years.
⏹️ ▶️ John and we were all waiting for desktop retina. I mean, what have we been talking about this whole life of the show? Marco and I were like, you know, we
⏹️ ▶️ John just need a machine that can run desktop retina. We hoped it would be the Mac Pro and it wasn’t, but Marco bought one anyway, because he’s Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ John all the nerds in our circle are like totally, I mean, Gruber is using, I think the 20
⏹️ ▶️ John inch version of the screen that I have in front of me, the aluminum display with white plastic things on the side.
⏹️ ▶️ John the 23 inch, he had the 20 inch one connected. Like he’s just, he’s been staring at ancient technology. So he’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna, you know, he’s gonna have the world’s biggest upgrade in terms of what he’s looking at all day. And those
⏹️ ▶️ John are the best kind of upgrades, It’s just like like the iPhone for you like wow. No, this is a whole other world. We’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and john you’re Definitely looking to upgrade your mac pro and this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey definitely at least in the running
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s in the running like I again i’ve talked about before we started Recording or before we went live
⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway that every time my poor mac pro is just super slow because of the spinning disks and
⏹️ ▶️ John everything I I almost buy an ssd so many times i’m on that amazon page and i’m like, oh i’m like pricing
⏹️ ▶️ John things out I’m getting you know looking at reports. I’m just almost buying because if I got an SSD it would
⏹️ ▶️ John Seriously extend the life of this machine because I have a very similar machine one year newer
⏹️ ▶️ John at work That’s all SSD and it’s fine like but my home one is so painful like once you just get an
⏹️ ▶️ John SSD They’re not that expensive and I said no no what I should do is take that money that I’m about to spend that SSD
⏹️ ▶️ John and Put it towards whatever my next computer is whether that’s a Mac Pro or an iMac or whatever so So,
⏹️ ▶️ John looking at the specs of that iMac, it is not ideal. I like something that’s good for gaming. I worry that even the high-end
⏹️ ▶️ John GPU with that kind of resolution is not going to be great for gaming. I already know, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’re looking at the specs, it looks like it’s maybe a little bit weaker than one of the good GPUs
⏹️ ▶️ John in the Mac Pro. And if you’re going to do the Mac Pro for gaming, you can, you know, use them in crossfire mode. So,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, at best, it’s half as fast as the Mac Pro for gaming and driving more pixels than the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro has to drive. Obviously you wouldn’t run games in that resolution anyway. But anyway, I want to see
⏹️ ▶️ John some benchmarks first because you can’t replace it. It’s all sealed into one big thing. There’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be any upgrading of it. Like I upgraded the GPU on my Mac Pro. It is now still
⏹️ ▶️ John a vaguely viable gaming machine only because I upgraded the GPU. I can’t upgrade the GPU in that
⏹️ ▶️ John iMac. So if I spend four grand on an iMac, the screen’s going to look awesome, but how long will it last as my gaming
⏹️ ▶️ John machine? So I’m still, you know, it’s like, well if I don’t buy this iMac,
⏹️ ▶️ John am I just gonna wait another year for the new Mac Pros that can drive the hopeful
⏹️ ▶️ John eventual external version of this display?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think it might be two years for that actually. If you look at the road map and, what we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco waiting for is DisplayPort 1.3 and Thunderbolt 3, which will most likely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco come together. And that’s not slated to go into Xeon chipsets for quite a while. It’s not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even slated to go into consumer chipsets until at least a year from now. possibly longer if Intel delays anything, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco happens a lot. So I think you might be waiting.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s why I said I said in my article about the iMac stuff, I said I would guess if I had to guess when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple would ship an external version of this monitor, I’d say
⏹️ ▶️ John 2016. Yeah, I know. I mean, if I have to wait that long, then I would just have to get an
⏹️ ▶️ John SSD and it’ll be like, Okay, well, this is an SSD. Like, I’m the thing that almost gets me to click the button. The SSD is like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not gonna throw it away. If I got a new computer, I would use the SSD as like a backup drive or something. You know, like
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like I wouldn’t like, oh, that was a waste of money. Cause I would use it, but I’m just
⏹️ ▶️ John trying to, you know, save cause I don’t know what I’m gonna do. But like the pricing is just so ridiculous. I’m like, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John similar pricing to the Mac Pro, but you get a free gigantic monitor with it. And basically it comes out there.
⏹️ ▶️ John And, and, and you know, the, the server, the server versus consumer gap is just
⏹️ ▶️ John embarrassing. But the other thing is that, especially with huge amounts of RAM, I really, this
⏹️ ▶️ John seems silly, but Marco said it as well in your thing, like we both have this feeling based on nothing,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is probably false, but it’s like that ECC RAM with huge amounts of RAM is a benefit.
⏹️ ▶️ John And Marco, you attribute it like, well, you know, sometimes I have these weird kernel, but who knows if that’s even what it’s attribute. I just feel better.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is what it comes down to. I feel better with server class components in ECC RAM. I just do.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t know if it’s completely in my head or it’s a placebo effect or I’m being a sucker, or if really that ECC
⏹️ ▶️ John is correcting one bit errors all day long and saving me from kernel panics. Because I cannot remember the last
⏹️ ▶️ John time I had a kernel panic on this Mac Pro. This thing is like a champion. It just, other than it’s stupid spinning disk,
⏹️ ▶️ John which I hate with a bloody passion, it’s not the Mac Pro’s fault. They spin, you know, it’s spinning rust, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John Everything else about this machine, 100% reliable. And I like that. And so
⏹️ ▶️ John I would have more faith in the reliability of a second or third generation BoomTube
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro. Whose calls is the boom tube? Is that wave saying that or was that you? Anyway, I would
⏹️ ▶️ John have more faith in that machine just because it’s all server class components and just the cooling system is so incredibly efficient and
⏹️ ▶️ John probably quieter and all these other things, but it’s ridiculously expensive and not that good at games, which is why I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John have the current one. So I don’t know, no decision on desktop yet for me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Man, but this might be the year of John Syracuse, as it turns out, because you’re gonna have a phone,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re gonna have a new iPad, you might have a new computer, you have a new car.
⏹️ ▶️ John The year of Casey, you’re going to be a dad. I don’t know if you ever said this on the show, but you talk about someone
⏹️ ▶️ John who is good at doing dad jokes. You are already such a dad. But
⏹️ ▶️ John you you were just like, all you’re missing is the kid. The terrible humor, the
⏹️ ▶️ John all this is you are already a dad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m glad you approve.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, what’s going to happen to your jokes after the kid’s born? They’ll actually be funny.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, he’s like he’s he’s been living the dad life for so long now. Just he just didn’t have the kid.
⏹️ ▶️ John All he needs to put it in, all he needs is a young person to be embarrassed by him and the system is complete.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my goodness. All right, so Marco, you are going to order a maxed out iMac,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey almost said iPad. Yes. OK, I think that that’s what Underscore did as well, if I understood
⏹️ ▶️ Casey developing perspective correctly. And that seems to be the trend these days. So enjoy your new computer.
⏹️ ▶️ John this is exactly what, speaking of, this is exactly what happened when you guys weren’t in the Mac community back
⏹️ ▶️ John then, I don’t think. But so there’s the Yosemite, speaking of Yosemite, G3. And there’s the G4s,
⏹️ ▶️ John and the wind tunnel, and the Quicksilvers, and the crazy liquid cooled thing, and all that stuff. And
⏹️ ▶️ John the front side bus on Max was just ridiculous compared to the CPU speed. And it
⏹️ ▶️ John was so sad. It was like, what’s going on here? I forget what it was, like 133 megahertz front side bus with a gigahertz and a half CPU.
⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever it was, it was obscene. It was just a completely unbalanced machine, and we all hated it.
⏹️ ▶️ John And everybody was just delaying their purchase, like there’s no way in hell I’m buying that piece of crap,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, whatever comes out. You could tell it was just not a good machine. And so as soon as the Power Mac G5
⏹️ ▶️ John came out, we all just bought the top end one. Everybody, like everybody I knew had the top of the line dual
⏹️ ▶️ John two gigahertz Power Mac G5 cheese grater. We just all bought them because it’s pent up demand
⏹️ ▶️ John amongst our little circle of nerds. So this is pent up demand for desktop retina. And so now I just see
⏹️ ▶️ John everybody I know obviously had been saving their pennies, waiting patiently. And as soon as this thing dropped, like boom,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s it, that’s what I want. You know, quad 27 inch displays. I don’t care about anything else.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t care if it’s an iMac, must have it now. So yeah, you guys are gonna all be great test drivers for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, and honestly, like looking at it, I looked over it, and I was reading the article about, like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does anybody still need to buy the Mac Pro, basically. And I was partly writing it, talking to myself
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about this problem. Looking at this, I was trying to think, like, all right, what’s the catch? I was trying to find the catch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I thought it might be heat and fan noise, and it turns out the total system power
⏹️ ▶️ Marco usage is almost exactly the same as the old one, whereas the CPU, if you get the big CPU, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I definitely recommend the i7 upgrade, if you get that, it’s like two more watts than the old one,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then it’s not that big of a difference. The GPU, from what I’ve been told, is slightly more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco power hungry, but because the display is 30% less power hungry, it bounces that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, and so the total system heat and power needs are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty similar to the old one and the the internal design looks exactly the same like it’s the same cooling
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same structure and that’s why it’s actually a pretty mature system like this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the same iMac they’ve been shipping for years just with a crazy display on the front
⏹️ ▶️ Marco instead of but like the rest of the internals like they’re not doing anything new and crazy with that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so i don’t actually foresee major problems except that you know if there’s a problem with the panels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you if there’s a problem with image retention or…
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s what it comes down to. This screen or the whole dealing
⏹️ ▶️ John with basically two DisplayPort things coming into one and integrating them all, if there’s any kind of weird lag. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John you wouldn’t care for game purposes, but is there any lag introduced with this synchronization?
⏹️ ▶️ John Think about the dual GPU MacBook Pros and stuff when that first came out with the GPU switching, how that was kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of wonky with software. Will there be a similar issue like this? You never know. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, but it isn’t do it see that the way they’ve done this panel with the single controller being treated as a single
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I understand like I’m not saying like it’s the exact same problem It’s just like when there is it when
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple does something for the first time Yeah, like they hadn’t done this before like they’d never they’d never driven a display this way
⏹️ ▶️ John before they’d never done GPUs or before There’s a lot of moving parts to it and even though they control the whole stack You never know
⏹️ ▶️ John if it’s gonna become one of those things It’s like wonky and it gets worked out in the next generation product But,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, no question next year, when they update these with with, you know, desktop Broadwell,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s good if that’s coming out next fall, whatever the case, like, desktop Broadwell will come out, it’ll get faster,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll it’ll run a little bit cooler, it’ll run a little bit faster. Broadwell on the desktop is looking like it’s going to be something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a 10 or 15% improvement. These are roughly a 10 or 15% speed improvement over the ones
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from last year. Like this, that’s just like, you know, that’s what you get with desktops. And so if you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really want this right now, I don’t think there’s a huge reason to wait for next year’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s no different than any other one year generational gap in desktops like every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco year it’s going to get a little bit better a little bit faster.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know but like this the second year they do this screen in this way you figure that more of the kinks worked out like if
⏹️ ▶️ John there are any kinks that there are no kinks then fine there are no kinks but the second year they do this screen they’ll you know like
⏹️ ▶️ John Even just like you said, the image retention on the MacBook Pro is like that. That was an issue. They
⏹️ ▶️ John think they got their suppliers sorting out. And now it’s not as bad as it was.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. And honestly, like the first generation, a retina MacBook Pro, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco image retention, which only affected some of the screens. And I happen to get one, which is annoying. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the image retention didn’t affect all of them. And that was the only problem, like the hardware
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the first generation right now, my pro was fine. Otherwise, everything else about it, I’ve had zero problems with.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, these could be fine. We’ll see. The other thing is that I feel like there’s, this is the
⏹️ ▶️ John wrong term, but there’s more margin of error in gigantic machines than there is in these little tiny precious
⏹️ ▶️ John devices. Like I’ve always been down on laptops because everything is just jammed in there and there’s no margin for error.
⏹️ ▶️ John Whereas in the iMac, even though it’s all stupidly thin on the edge and stuff, there’s room enough
⏹️ ▶️ John to breathe where you’re like, I don’t feel like they’re, like if they’re trying to wedge things and don’t have room, they’re just doing it
⏹️ ▶️ John to themselves. So I feel like they have a better, I mean, so far, like the Mac Pros,
⏹️ ▶️ John well, actually I have heard stuff with the Mac Pros. Here’s the things I’ve heard with the Mac Pros, like dropping network connections.
⏹️ ▶️ John What is the other one? That’s one other thing that I’ve heard for the Mac Pros, like wonkiness with the hardware with
⏹️ ▶️ John the first generation BoomTube Mac Pros.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, I totally forgot I’ve been using a first generation Mac Pro. It’s fine, I’ve had zero
⏹️ ▶️ John problems. Yeah, yours is fine, but I’ve heard other people have a couple weird things here and there, if they’re using
⏹️ ▶️ John more demanding Thunderbolt-type scenarios or whatever, yours has been fine too. Like I mean, I bought a first generation power,
⏹️ ▶️ John Mike G five, and that machine was fine too. Like it’s, it’s a crap shoot. I just, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s not like I’ve said, never buy one, just let everyone else buy one, see how it is for a month or two. And
⏹️ ▶️ John then, you know, patience is rewarded.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. Well, although I was, I was worried with this, that it might get into backorder, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I suspect it’s going to be amazing. And because it is the computer that all of us have been waiting for, or many of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco us have been waiting for, I suspect it’s gonna if there’s if there’s any supply constraints, we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna see that pretty soon.
⏹️ ▶️ John It was like the Mac Pro like that was so hard to get one of those and it’s not because they were selling a bazillion of it’s just because it’s so weird and
⏹️ ▶️ John exotic. It’s just not a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know exactly. So how’s the review?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I always forget every year like
⏹️ ▶️ John you think it’s gonna come and you’re gonna be so relieved that it’s done but then I forget it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not how it goes like you publish it and there’s no
⏹️ ▶️ John like a moment of triumph or relief because as soon as it’s published you just
⏹️ ▶️ John you know it’s I mean Marco must I was like releasing software then you’re just inundated with like
⏹️ ▶️ John the bug reports and worrying about you know how the launch is going and server capacity
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever and like and that just still kind of like fades away like eventually like is this
⏹️ ▶️ John big rush of crap that you have to deal with and it’s just a pain in the butt and you run around like a chicken with your head cut off and you’re worrying about this and you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John worrying about that and you’re fixing things and dealing with ebook stores and going back and forth and you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John responding to comments and Twitter and going through and just and that just that just slowly very gradually
⏹️ ▶️ John tapers and then eventually just Peters off and then you’re just left like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s not it’s not as exciting like I feel like it’d be more exciting if you’re like a movie director and you work
⏹️ ▶️ John really hard in this movie for a long time. And then you go to like the opening night and it’s like there’s nothing you can do about it then
⏹️ ▶️ John like you’re not even responsible for making sure the projector doesn’t break. It’s like, well, the movie’s done. People are going to see
⏹️ ▶️ John it. It’s completely out of my hands. Nothing I can do about it unless I decide to grow a really
⏹️ ▶️ John big neck beard and wait 16 years and ruin the movie. So it’s not like that
⏹️ ▶️ John for software. It’s certainly not like that for web services or anything having to do with public-facing
⏹️ ▶️ John websites and stuff like that. It’s not really like that for my review, either, because it’s not like I get it all,
⏹️ ▶️ John put to bed, publish it, and then just wash my hands of it. and run around like crazy fixing things. And
⏹️ ▶️ John that never is fun. It doesn’t feel good. But anyway, done.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So is this the last review?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, this is the worst possible time to ask you that question, though.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know. That’s why I’m not committing to it. People keep asking me. I’m not going to give you a firm commitment, but I’m going to tell you realistically
⏹️ ▶️ John that right now I’m thinking, yes, definitely. But I’m not going to make the decision until later, until
⏹️ ▶️ John I can make make the decision clear of this, you know, this haze and I, you know, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. Uh, what was different about this review in terms of the creation process?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s about the same as the past couple, like, uh, every year this,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I’m always worried about what things are going to get wrong. And what I’ve been trying to do is steer myself towards the places
⏹️ ▶️ John that I can add value in the review, because realistically speaking, like I have to have
⏹️ ▶️ John this thing done, edited, copy edited, e-books generated and sent to the e-book store,
⏹️ ▶️ John basically before the final version of the OS is done. So if, you know, one of the things
⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t, one of the, you know, one of the values that I cannot bring
⏹️ ▶️ John is I can tell you intimate details about how the final retail
⏹️ ▶️ John installer binary works. Because I don’t even have the final retail installer binary until you’re already reading the review,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Like my thing goes live the second Apple pushes the button to publish the thing and in fact my thing
⏹️ ▶️ John went live before people could actually get Yosemite. So I have no idea how the retail installer from the Mac App Store works. I have
⏹️ ▶️ John no idea what it’s good. I just have to go based on what the latest GM candidate I had at the
⏹️ ▶️ John time I made the things were. So there’s whole categories of things that have to do with specific details of
⏹️ ▶️ John the final bits that people are gonna get that I just simply can’t address. Unfortunately you have to kind of try to address some of them
⏹️ ▶️ John and hope you get it right and then that’s the frustrating part of like oh actually they did change
⏹️ ▶️ John this in the very latest GM that I didn’t have a chance to test with. Oh, this is actually different than the retail version,
⏹️ ▶️ John the version that I never actually saw until you already read my review. And so, you know, someone who reads
⏹️ ▶️ John my review six months from now is gonna be like, huh, that doesn’t happen to me when I do it. It’s like, yeah, you’re right, it doesn’t.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I had to go with the information I had at the time. And of course, by then, you know, 10.10.3
⏹️ ▶️ John will be out, which could behave differently anyway. So there’s whole categories of things that I just can’t,
⏹️ ▶️ John can’t address in a reasonable manner. And then even the things I can address, like tiny little details,
⏹️ ▶️ John those are the things that change at the last minute. So you can’t spend, you know, three pages and then have it
⏹️ ▶️ John edited and copyedited talking about some minute feature that changes three times in the last three developer builds.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, what, you just wasted all your time writing. And if you’re a full-time writer, maybe you can dedicate those last three or four
⏹️ ▶️ John days to just working like mad. But my per day time that I can allocate to this is fixed
⏹️ ▶️ John and very small because I have a full-time job. So yeah, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a frustrating part of doing this. So I try to basically steer the review towards the parts that I can address, like broad
⏹️ ▶️ John strokes, what does this OS mean for the platform, what are the important features, and how do they impact
⏹️ ▶️ John what the Mac is like to use, and how the Mac fits in with Apple’s other platforms, and blah blah blah. So that’s where I spent almost all
⏹️ ▶️ John my time, and the last few reviews have been moving towards that. But the process of writing it has just
⏹️ ▶️ John been the same as I think the past three or four reviews, Especially since the past three or four have also had ebooks.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve kind of been in this silly thing of writing and dealing with the production process and
⏹️ ▶️ John dealing with the ebook stores and dealing with ebook formatting and every year at some different thing and
⏹️ ▶️ John I Think I’m more or less have it down now It’s just disappointing like I have video and I entertain thoughts that perhaps I would have the video
⏹️ ▶️ John inside the ebooks This is the first year I was gonna have inline video while also doing an ebook But inline video and ebooks
⏹️ ▶️ John is so insane you can do it can be done in iBooks But if you look at what the requirements are for inline video,
⏹️ ▶️ John I stopped when they had requirement number one. Requirement number one dictated aspect ratio. I’m like, no, I have this
⏹️ ▶️ John cute little movie of this window. You’ve seen the little movie of the, the little, you know, showing the controls animated. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the aspect ratio. I made the window. I, oh, you know, one story about the production process is this
⏹️ ▶️ John book. I don’t want to go too far into it because it’s inside baseball and nobody cares, but this is the one that drove me nuts in this one. So this little movie,
⏹️ ▶️ John this little inline movie showing animated controls with this little silly mock-up. I made an interface builder, just,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, with a bunch of checkboxes so I can check them and stuff. And I wanted to make the movie a similar aspect ratio to
⏹️ ▶️ John this window. And so I can’t do it in iBooks right away. It wants an aspect ratio that’s like, I don’t remember if it was 16 by 9
⏹️ ▶️ John or 4 by 3 or whatever it was. It wasn’t my aspect ratio. I’m like, well, screw you. I’m not making a ridiculous video like that. My thing is skinny.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll just link it, which works fine. It just doesn’t, it’s just not in line. But to
⏹️ ▶️ John make that movie, it’s on a retina screen, right? And I need to record the movie.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I have so little knowledge about video production and so little software having
⏹️ ▶️ John anything to do with video production. Like I probably could have done this FFMPEG, which I haven’t installed, but I have no idea what I’m doing, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John So my only tool at my disposal is like, you know, rocks and sticks here, is
⏹️ ▶️ John to use QuickTime Screen Capture. And QuickTime Screen Capture lets you capture a portion of
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen by like dragging out a little rectangle. I have to drag out a rectangle that’s exactly 1280
⏹️ ▶️ John pixels wide, by whatever I did. Oh, God. On a retina
⏹️ ▶️ John screen. So it has to be 1280 or retina pixels, you know, whatever it is, 960 points, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Right, and when you drag it out like that in QuickTime Player with the exact pixel
⏹️ ▶️ John dimensions, you have to go through the motions of me, go through the motions of me, like, clicking the things and tabbing
⏹️ ▶️ John from fields to fields and unchecking the checkboxes. You have to do that first. Get like
⏹️ ▶️ John a nice sequence, save the movie, and then look at the movie you saved and see if you got the dimensions right.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know how many times I took that movie? You know how many times I’ve checked those check boxes? Oh, and by the way, Apple changed the look
⏹️ ▶️ John of the controls and the control animations like three times. I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey made that movie so
⏹️ ▶️ John many freaking times. The system I had for trying to get
⏹️ ▶️ John like an exact movie, some people think it’s Snaps Pro. I have Snaps Pro, but I don’t like to install
⏹️ ▶️ John third-party things, especially if they involve kex on Yosemite systems or on the system
⏹️ ▶️ John that I’m testing, because I don’t want to take third-party software, which may or may not be sort of validated for Yosemite, because then
⏹️ ▶️ John I can say, buggy and it’s kernel panicking, maybe it was snapshroad doing it. I just want to use Apple software. So my technique
⏹️ ▶️ John was to use Xscope, the Icon Factory’s great utility, that has a million tools for making like retina
⏹️ ▶️ John hairline guides and stuff like that, and I had like wires all over my screen exactly framing the part
⏹️ ▶️ John that I wanted to do it, and then I would use the accessibility zoom when making the rectangle. It’s just, it was
⏹️ ▶️ John insanity. Anyway, that was the most ridiculous crazy part of doing this. For a thing that nobody cares about,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not even an important part of the review, but I sunk a lot of time into it. So there, that But there’s something that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John different. I had to make an inline movie this time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco For whatever it’s worth, that was a great movie. It actually really helped a lot. I really enjoyed watching
⏹️ ▶️ John it. That was like the worst performance of like, because I had hooked up an external mouse because I’m so bad with a touch pad.
⏹️ ▶️ John The one that’s in the review is a touch pad and I hate how it looks like I’m like a handicapped person moving that mouse
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’m not. I didn’t get that impression.
⏹️ ▶️ John I have limited mobility and I feel like it was not an accurate representation of my mousing
⏹️ ▶️ John skills. At that point, I was so tired of like, I
⏹️ ▶️ John just have one mouse and I have to disconnect it from my own computer. I don’t have a spare mouse. And I was so tired of doing that. I just did the last 17
⏹️ ▶️ John runs to get that thing right with the touchpad. And I’m like, you know what? It’s the right dimensions. It came
⏹️ ▶️ John out OK. The background was correctly framed. I don’t care that the mouse looks a little stuttery.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry, I’m still stuck on not an accurate representation. I
⏹️ ▶️ John think I think everyone who uses the trackpad is I think the trackpad I think we’ve gone through this before, is
⏹️ ▶️ John an inferior input method in terms of speed and accuracy.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Maybe they’re comfortable. Oh, completely
⏹️ ▶️ John agree. Yeah, if you just look, if all you could see was a screen capture of cursor movement, I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ John I can tell if it’s someone using a touchpad versus a mouse.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree. The people who use the Magic Trackpad, I believe that’s what it’s called, they,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t understand how they do it.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re more interested in comfort, which is fine. It’s a reasonable trade-off. I don’t care about accuracy. It’s not a race.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m more interested in the comfort of my hands. And they’re more comfortable swiping their fingers across the surface. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m very interested in efficiency, and I grew up with the mouse, so mouse forever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I completely agree with you. All right. Do you want to go through? I do have some questions to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ask about bits and pieces of the review. Is there any general thought? Are there any general thoughts that you have before
⏹️ ▶️ John I have tons of general thoughts, but I wrote most of them down in a conveniently conceivable form. So
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, you can just, you know. I’m sure I’ll bring up some of your stuff later. And if we, I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure I will talk more about why I think this will be my last one in some future show. But one
⏹️ ▶️ John of the aspects of it is that, like, I just have so much pent up things to say about this, and
⏹️ ▶️ John it pains me so much in the world wherever this public beta is that everyone gets to talk about it. And like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, this thing is that review that I wrote, like a week after WWDC. And I just had
⏹️ ▶️ John to sit there with gritted teeth for three months while everyone else has the same discussions. And then, you know, hope
⏹️ ▶️ John that I don’t end up saying all exactly the same things. And I can’t be like, well, I totally wrote that a week after WWDC. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John I have had a lot of things to say about Yosemite. And a lot of them have already been said by other smart people,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is a shame. But what can you do?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. I’d like to start my dissection of your review by asking you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if the reference on page 15, the caption on page 15, which I believe is a movie
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reference, this is the picture of your family, is that a reference to the Godfather?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because if so, I would like to celebrate that victory quietly by
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re embarrassing yourself by asking that question, Casey. You shouldn’t have to ask.
⏹️ ▶️ John You should proudly say that, hey, did you know that I got the reference under this picture or whatever? And I would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey good, Casey. But the thing is, I’ve only seen like 10 minutes of that movie.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I’ve just heard the quote a thousand times.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Don’t tell me that. That’s not a lie.
⏹️ ▶️ John Watch Godfather 1 and 2. They’re great movies.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Actually, I was just listening to Snell and Mike talk about how Godfather 3 doesn’t exist.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re more or less right but I said you’ll be you’ll have plenty of time late at night as you pace back and forth In
⏹️ ▶️ John front of the television holding your child. You can watch the entire movie many times over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also Ph 15 included my favorite line of the review, which is in Yosemite as in life
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think carefully before starting a family
⏹️ ▶️ John Everybody love that is that is the most popular line of the review and I am I don’t like that line at all I almost didn’t put
⏹️ ▶️ John it in because I thought it was terrible.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, it’s so good I actually wrote that down and I almost skipped right over it. So I’m glad Marco that you remembered I give that line of thumbs
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Oh, double, double thumbs up for sure. You’re reviewing your own
⏹️ ▶️ John review. I think I deleted it like three times. I’m like, you know what, whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s not good. John, I love you.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And on page 19, you talked about SMS and messages.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I have a couple of thoughts on that. First of all, I think that’s huge
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I spend an inordinate amount of time in front of my computer, particularly during the workday.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And although I don’t exchange that many traditional SMSs with that many people,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being able to fire one off, well, receiving one and more importantly, being
⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to fire one off by using the keyboard on my Mac, that strikes me as awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But one of the things I wanted to ask you, which you may or may not know the answer is, does that piece
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of continuity, does that require BTLE as well? Or is that just
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know the answer to that, actually. I think it just requires
⏹️ ▶️ John plain old Bluetooth and might work over Wi-Fi. But no, I do not know the answer to that. With these things that require
⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone integration, a lot of these didn’t work in a reasonable way until very
⏹️ ▶️ John late, and then they stopped working entirely and then worked again with 8.1 beta. So I did not have a a lot of time to go into these. I just
⏹️ ▶️ John basically had enough time to do them, to see that they work, to see what it was like to do them, to try to use them with these
⏹️ ▶️ John little fake conversations with my wife in various places. And this, by the way, was an advantage
⏹️ ▶️ John of me having my non-smartphone. I could send SMSes. Not easily, because I got to type them in on a number
⏹️ ▶️ John pad. But I had a device ready at hand that could not use iMessage.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so I was sending myself SMSes and stuff like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. You could have just turned iMessage off on that phone, but
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, this is like I said in the review. This is kind of like a it should have always been this way like
⏹️ ▶️ John this should have always been this symmetry Between you know if the iPhone can do it why can’t the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John once you have messages on the Mac? It’s like well, but of course you can’t get SMS because it’s tied to blah blah blah like
⏹️ ▶️ John You just need we if you’ve got the phone and you’ve got the messages and the phone can be like
⏹️ ▶️ John these are all things This is a lot of the stuff in Yosemite It’s like it’s almost like the iPhone and the Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John were made by two different companies for the amount of the integration I said in the review in retrospect is shocking
⏹️ ▶️ John how little integration there was between these two platforms For no no good reason like the technologies
⏹️ ▶️ John were there It’s not like Apple suddenly invented Bluetooth and Wi-Fi like this these things could have been
⏹️ ▶️ John talking to each other could have been cooperating could have Been on the same page for so long. So now it’s almost like SMS I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know if it’s going away It’s hard, you know, if you’re in a circle, but everyone who uses iPhones and
⏹️ ▶️ John your whole family uses iPhone and you’re like, oh yeah, SMS is dead, but in reality it’s everywhere, right? But I see
⏹️ ▶️ John the rise of these messaging services like Line and whatever those other, you know, like
⏹️ ▶️ John non-SMS messaging services that are very popular throughout the world. And I just have to
⏹️ ▶️ John feel like, and I hate SMS with a passion. I have to feel like that technology, not the idea of sending people text messages,
⏹️ ▶️ John but that particular technology for doing so, I’ll be glad when that’s gone. But if it ends
⏹️ ▶️ John up hanging around for a much longer time, it’s good that it’s integrated and everything. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I still worry about reliability issues, not so much of the software,
⏹️ ▶️ John but of the server component of messages and SMS and the gateway
⏹️ ▶️ John and all that. So now it’s just, now you’ve got one more thing that can be out of sync or only in one place or
⏹️ ▶️ John inexplicably out of order or whatever. But better late than never.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think also, I really enjoyed what came, I think, right after this, which was the unification of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone calls thing. I thought you made some very good points there and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m looking forward to this world of like I can you know if somebody calls me and I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sitting on my computer with my headphones on I can just swing the mic over and pick it up and start talking to them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. I didn’t quite appreciate really until I read that part of your review I didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite appreciate like how that will change the world of being a human being in front of a computer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most day in this subtle and and quickly forgettable way but that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s substantial I think
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah I don’t know how much I time you’ll find out how much time you spend on the phone but I don’t spend a lot of time on the phone but
⏹️ ▶️ John I I totally expected that phone feature to be wonky or weird and there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John a potential just like a lot of the iCloud stuff for it to be wonky or weird because if it is wonky or weird you
⏹️ ▶️ John like it so many iCloud features you have no place to go to check for it right but it
⏹️ ▶️ John you know I didn’t put this in the review because I refuse, but it more or less just worked. And
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just worked for a long time, like the betas and everything. I never had a problem with it. It did what it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John supposed to do. You call, and the thing appears, and you can answer it there. And they had all
⏹️ ▶️ John sorts of little nice features, like your ringtones and everything are there. And I think someone said, I didn’t try this, but someone said if
⏹️ ▶️ John that UI is up and you do the numeric keypad on your keyboard, it makes a little beepy sound,
⏹️ ▶️ John like the tone sounds, if you’re using a touch tone menu system. I can imagine doing
⏹️ ▶️ John it, for example, like I’ve always, you know, you have to be like on hold with Amazon for a year and a day or some
⏹️ ▶️ John are more likely on home with like a cable company or something. And like to be able to do that while farting around on your
⏹️ ▶️ John computer without having to keep your phone on speakerphone on your desk with the sound bouncing off of your desk,
⏹️ ▶️ John like to just have it all integrated into the computer thing. Or even if you just want to record a call, like
⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes use Google, you know, Google Voice or Grand Central, wherever that is, you know, the company, you know, where you can
⏹️ ▶️ John do calling from your web browser. and it’s just nice to have everything integrated. And again, this technology was there,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not rocket science, it’s just audio. It’s a nice, the integration is nice.
⏹️ ▶️ John And as long as it doesn’t fall down, which I didn’t see it fall down, it’s just like, oh, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John we should always have done that. Why were we not doing that? It’s just, they could have done that with the iPad,
⏹️ ▶️ John with the iPhone 1 practically, like if they did it over wifi. Like it’s not, you know, telephone, voice, it’s nothing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think they’re doing it over Bluetooth 4. I assume because you know that the whole handoff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing it has the ability to create an ad hoc Wi-Fi connection for higher bandwidth stuff like file transfers,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is what airdrop does. But this could plausibly work entirely over Bluetooth
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah, certainly. I mean, you’re also will be shocked at how bad again how bad phone sound quality is.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, my wife calling the other parts of the house like it sounds terrible because
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey phones sounds terrible, like
⏹️ ▶️ John playing playing old regular phones not you know. Yeah, but it’s it’s cute.
⏹️ ▶️ John The interface is nice. Like, yeah, good job, Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it also, this will make phone calls less disruptive. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you’re at a computer and you get a phone call, like, you gotta get the phone out of your pocket, you gotta take your headphones off if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you were wearing headphones. See who it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, see if I can get it. See who it is, yeah, like this
⏹️ ▶️ John that so much less disruptive. It’d be easier to just bring your calls without having to dig stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, I have the same thing at work even with my non-smartphone. When I hear my non-smartphone ringing,
⏹️ ▶️ John I have to pull it out of whatever drawer or pocket or backpack it’s in to see, is it my wife calling? Or is
⏹️ ▶️ John it someone with the wrong number speaking to me in Spanish? And it’s like 50-50. And I would much rather just
⏹️ ▶️ John look at the upper right corner of my screen and tap a little button to ignore when I know it’s not.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, but this is evidence that Marco works out of the house. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I get a phone call, my first reaction is to grab my phone and run away from the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey team area that I’m sitting in so I can be prepared to answer the phone. And half the time when
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s the person who doesn’t know me speaking Spanish, I don’t realize that until I’m already like 10
⏹️ ▶️ Casey steps away from my desk area out of earshot of all of my coworkers.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, that’s like, you know, even if you’re going to answer it on your phone, merely just using it as a caller ID
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, yeah. Oh, I completely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco agree. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which is a feature I have the blue phone elite in 2005. Yeah. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco then as soon as the iPhone came out, that stopped working. But it was when I had it for that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one year on my dumb phone, it was amazing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like that, like I said, it’s almost like these platforms made by two different companies for the incredible lack of
⏹️ ▶️ John integration, which is supposedly supposed to be like Apple’s big advantage, like all one company makes everything and it can all
⏹️ ▶️ John work together. But there was this crazy separation between the Mac and the iPhone that now is finally
⏹️ ▶️ John finally coming down in a meaningful way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I think I think your your point was very apt that like, you know, until until
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, Apple’s internal like org chart division was showing up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too much in the products. And I think this is, as you said, this is like an important like tearing down of that
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and really, like, I pay this introduction inclusion, very similar as they always are. But
⏹️ ▶️ John I really felt this with with using this OS and writing this review, like it,
⏹️ ▶️ John it now feels like it can’t include the watchness because who knows what the hell’s going on But iOS and the Mac at least
⏹️ ▶️ John feel like one sort of unified platform being worked on by one team.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, and that every idea they come up with, it’ll be like, how does this idea apply
⏹️ ▶️ John to both platforms? Like extensions. They could have just done iOS 8 extensions and be like, well, iOS needs some way to
⏹️ ▶️ John extend it because it’s been this super locked down platform. We totally don’t need those on the Mac, right? Because the Mac, you can already do all sorts
⏹️ ▶️ John of crazy stuff. I said, no, we’re going to make an extension thing and we’re going to bring it to the Mac. It’s like, why would you want to bring extensions
⏹️ ▶️ John to the Mac? You can already do all sorts of crazy stuff with the Mac. The Mac doesn’t need it. iOS needs it. Don’t waste your time on that. It’s like, we
⏹️ ▶️ John are making this extension mechanism we think is the best extension mechanism we’ve ever made
⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of safety and an API that we can support and blah, blah, blah.
⏹️ ▶️ John And why wouldn’t we bring this to every one of our platforms? Why would we say, the Mac can continue just to have loadable
⏹️ ▶️ John bundles that will crash system UI server and make everybody sad? No, they bring it to both
⏹️ ▶️ John of them. And they bring it to both of them in a way that you can actually share code between them. And I know it’s not exactly the same. and no, you don’t have to make
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac use UI kit, but there’s enough sharing between them. Like it’s being addressed as a holistic
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. And I don’t know if I went into this too much in the conclusion, I would have liked to hammer on it more, but like
⏹️ ▶️ John the idea that Apple is viewing its customers as people who use multiple devices in their lives, rather than viewing their
⏹️ ▶️ John devices as targets for software that they make, right? Where it stopped thinking about
⏹️ ▶️ John the iPhone as a piece of hardware, and we want to write awesome software for it to make it a great product. And the iPad is a piece of hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ John we want to write awesome software for it to make a great product and the Mac blah, blah, blah. Like that is, you’re looking
⏹️ ▶️ John at hardware and then you’re writing software for it. And then you see this product and you’re like done. Whereas what they should be looking at is
⏹️ ▶️ John people who buy our stuff are individual people, one person. And that one person,
⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re a good Apple customer has an iPhone, has a Mac, maybe has an iPad. And that one person
⏹️ ▶️ John does not divide themselves up between those three devices. That it’s just one person. They have one set of stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John They have one set of people that they know. It’s all like the cloud stuff comes into and the Google stuff as well. but like
⏹️ ▶️ John we should be addressing that person’s need and that person’s needs have nothing to do with what
⏹️ ▶️ John we think in the abstract we should make. This is the best phone we can make and this is the best Mac we can make. And that person
⏹️ ▶️ John says, but I’m just one person. I don’t care that that phone is awesome over there and the Mac is awesome over there. How can you make them both awesome for
⏹️ ▶️ John me? So I really like the fact that it seems like Apple’s platforms are
⏹️ ▶️ John now being addressed as a sort of, you know, one thing,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, We want you as the customer to be able to use our stuff. And it’s all
⏹️ ▶️ John one big thing. And, you know, if we can blur distinctions between these, if you can move from one to the
⏹️ ▶️ John next and your stuff comes with you and we can, you know, make them not look the same, but like have a similar feel.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s another big thing I might not have gone into as much as I really wanted to. Like how Yosemite does
⏹️ ▶️ John not look like iOS seven, but you could. There’s a family resemblance. Like it’s not like we have to make it pixel per pixel exactly
⏹️ ▶️ John like iOS seven, but they look similar enough. And so you feel like you’re you feel like you’re going from room to room
⏹️ ▶️ John in a big house, but you own the whole house and all your stuff is everywhere. This is why I didn’t write that. That’s a bad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, goodness. The other thing I wanted to mention on page 19 was this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one line is a great example of what I love about reading your reviews because your
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reviews are very approachable, even for someone who doesn’t have the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey background that say all of us have. And the best part is they have this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tone and character to them that’s very serious. And then there’s these little drops like what Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey brought up a minute ago with the quote from the other page about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think carefully before starting a family. And here on page 19, also that dog totally looks
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like Harrison Ford. That’s so random and so delightful.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not random. Did I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco say that? No, that was a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco meme. I’ve seen that before.
⏹️ ▶️ John it was a meme. Like, I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that. I just want
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of references. You don’t get Casey. Just assume
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that I know.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I think I’ve said it before on the show. But I, you know, people always ask, like, are you going to make like a compendium
⏹️ ▶️ John of old ebooks or. And that’s to be like a huge amount of work. And I have no idea if I’m ever going to do that. But one thing I always fantasize
⏹️ ▶️ John about doing, which I probably also won’t do, is just going back through all my overviews and annotating all the references,
⏹️ ▶️ John which I don’t know who that would be for other than me. Maybe it has an audience of one. But I guarantee nobody
⏹️ ▶️ John who’s not me, no, got everything. because they’re super obscure. Like, they’re practically from my own
⏹️ ▶️ John private life. Like, oh, this is a reference to a friend I had in kindergarten. Like, you know, it’s from that all the way up
⏹️ ▶️ John to things that everybody should know, right? But they’re everywhere. Like, I put them, it’s how I entertain myself while
⏹️ ▶️ John I write stuff. So anyway, the Harrison Ford dog, that was a meme. And everyone sent it to me. And I thought it was awesome. And I thought I sent it
⏹️ ▶️ John to you. But apparently, I didn’t send it to Casey. But it’s super small in the review. So if you don’t know that meme,
⏹️ ▶️ John you might still squint at the dog and go, that tiny, squinty dog does kind of look like Harrison.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey But he’s super small. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John exactly what I did. super looks like Harry go Google for the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey name. All right, good to know. On the next page, you made an extremely bold claim,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or maybe I shouldn’t say claim statement that was just in the middle
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of or actually was the very end of the page. Apple’s cloud services may finally be on the right track.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m going to ask you the stupid leading question. Do you really mean that?
⏹️ ▶️ John I do. I didn’t remember when I came out of of the CloudKit WWDC session, I was like, I think everybody who
⏹️ ▶️ John came out of the session was like, oh geez, fine. Like, if you have any experience either implementing
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of web services yourself or being a customer of other people’s web services, you know what’s out there. Like if you’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John used like Azure or the Amazon things or you’ve written services yourself, you kind of know like what everybody’s
⏹️ ▶️ John doing in the web space. And then over here, it was like I Cloud Core Data, which is mutant alien. There was nothing like any of the
⏹️ ▶️ John other services. And CloudKit was like, oh yeah, yeah, that’s more or less what it worked. We’ve all been doing
⏹️ ▶️ John that. And now you’re doing that and you’re doing a good job at it. It looks at a totally plausible, like it’s the way
⏹️ ▶️ John someone implementing it, you know, the way someone like well-versed in the art who is not at Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John would implement something like that is kind of like that. And it’s the way people who write Mac apps have been writing
⏹️ ▶️ John their own little services to, you know, when they had to sort of roll their own, everyone was making stuff like that. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now Apple’s making one and it’s a really good one and it’s well thought out and it has all the advantages that Apple had. And it’s like, oh, geez,
⏹️ ▶️ John finally, like no more web objects, No more porting a local-only
⏹️ ▶️ John API to suddenly be cloud-based. It’s just no more weird impedance mismatches. No more
⏹️ ▶️ John doing things differently based on weird technologies that Apple really loves but no one else likes. It was just
⏹️ ▶️ John straightforward, simple, good, kind of like Scene Kit was, too, where it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like they’re bringing people from the outside world and don’t force them to do it like the quote, unquote,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple way, and just say, use current best practices to do a really good job and then leverage
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple’s expertise and infrastructure to do that. And that’s what cloud could look like. And like
⏹️ ▶️ John I said in the review, if it’s not, Apple is screwed too, because they’re building everything on it. There’s still the
⏹️ ▶️ John server back end to worry about. There’s still reliability concerns. There’s still plenty of ways they can screw this up.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it seems like it’s on the right track. Because if you’re trying to build something weird and it’s buggy,
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re like, look, first of all, you’re building some weird thing. No one else is doing it like that. Are you sure this is the right way? And second of all, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John full of bugs. If you’re building something more straightforward or more in line with best practices, and then it’s buggy, you’re like,
⏹️ ▶️ John well, you’re building the right thing. You just gotta get better at it. Like, I feel like you’re halfway there, you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. No, I mean, I’m not arguing. I’m just, it was a bold statement. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t think I said that when iCloud came around. I got MobileMe going, like that was a good move, like to can
⏹️ ▶️ John that and to, you know, to, it was a good idea to clean house and pick a new name, but that wasn’t a big
⏹️ ▶️ John turnaround. CloudKit, that WWC session really convinced me that
⏹️ ▶️ John there are at least some people there who know what the right thing to do is and are being allowed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey CWO Which is definitely an improvement. The next page is page 21
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’s the beginning of the Swift section. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I should point out to begin with that Chris Latner actually linked to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this review saying, hey, the Swift section was really good. And I thought that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was tremendous. So congratulations for that. Genuinely, I think that’s extremely
⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone should follow him because he is the ideal person to follow in that he is, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John interesting and famous and smart and does not tweet a lot. So you just follow him. You forget you
⏹️ ▶️ John even follow him. And then one day he’ll tweet something and you’ll be the first one to know because no one else follows him. So everyone follow Chris
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it was it was I’m trying to find it and I can’t so I’ll just move along.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it was a really short tweet, but a really nice tweet. And and that to me is a pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Casey big stamp of approval. So you should be proud of that. The Swift section was great. I also
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the end of the first page of the Swift section, which again is page 21. Wherein
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you said, print line, are you not entertained? That would be gladiator just FYI.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think that predates Gladiator. I know that’s where everyone knows it from. That’s basically where I know it from.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are you really taking my moment away from me
⏹️ ▶️ John right now? Don’t you think like… God, you are the worst. Yeah, but seriously though,
⏹️ ▶️ John when I found out you could do that, which was at WWDC, you know, because we didn’t know anything when Switch was announced,
⏹️ ▶️ John and like, you know, pound bang user, Bryn Swift, and just start typing. I’m like,
⏹️ ▶️ John what? And then you say, oh, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John entertained? Come on, I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey almost used an Enterobag.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey used an Enterobag. Oh my
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s impressive. Like that, you know, if you didn’t have a handle on what Swift was, like you come out
⏹️ ▶️ John of the keynote, you’re like, I don’t know what this crazy Swift thing is, but it’s like, it’s crazy. I don’t know what’s up here. And then you find out that it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like, it’s what I tried to lay out in the Swift thing. It’s so much of the Swift discussion on the web
⏹️ ▶️ John has been not ignorant enough because everybody because everybody knows this, but focusing
⏹️ ▶️ John on whatever they wanted to focus on and not focus on like Swift’s obviously,
⏹️ ▶️ John very publicly right in front of your face stated goal. And the goal sounds crazy and stupid. And maybe it
⏹️ ▶️ John is like I went into that maybe that’s the problem, like their goal is crazy and stupid. But their goal is to make this language that
⏹️ ▶️ John goes right from these little you just start typing, you put a little line at the top of your thing, you start typing the file, you just run it
⏹️ ▶️ John to go from that all the way up to Oh, you write in HoloLens in this, that sounds ridiculous. And maybe you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it is ridiculous. And maybe that is the root root problem with the language, but people will be like, I don’t understand why Swift is doing this
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. It’s like, it’s in the goal. Like if someone gave you this project and said, I want you to make a language that
⏹️ ▶️ John can go scale from scripts all the way up to writing an operating system. That would inform
⏹️ ▶️ John everything you did about language design. And when people complain about features, they’re like, Oh, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John like this. You could have done this. It’s like, yes, but then the language wouldn’t have been able to span this ridiculous range. And so I feel like what
⏹️ ▶️ John people should be disagreeing with is the mission of the language. That’s where people should be focusing the anger and say, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John stupid to make language that spans this range, what you should be doing is just making a really good objective C replacement. And,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, and, uh, you know, I’m, I’ve, I’ve liked the idea,
⏹️ ▶️ John the idea of the ambition of this is easy for me to say, because I’m not, you know, an iOS developer or a Mac developer who’s going to be forced to deal
⏹️ ▶️ John with this transition. We’re just going to be bumpy. Uh, but I, as, as an outside observer,
⏹️ ▶️ John I, I like the guts of someone trying to do that, saying that’s what they’re going to do, not keeping it a secret,
⏹️ ▶️ John but saying, this is what we want to make. And we think it’s possible, and this is how we think we can do it. And that
⏹️ ▶️ John just incredible clarifying lens for everything having to do with Swift. Things you like, the things you don’t like,
⏹️ ▶️ John the directions you might think it will go in the future, you have to look at that mission. And it could be they changed that mission.
⏹️ ▶️ John They said, that mission was dumb. It unnecessarily hamstrung us. We’re dropping one end to the other of it, and we’re changing
⏹️ ▶️ John language. But if you were to look back at what Objective-C looked like in 1989 or whenever, when it
⏹️ ▶️ John first came out, and compare it to Objective-C today, I’m going to say like it’s time to at least give Swift
⏹️ ▶️ John a chance. It is so incredibly new. It is going to look so amazingly different
⏹️ ▶️ John and hopefully much better if it’s given a couple of years to cook, especially at the rate
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has been improving its dev tools over the past, you know, say five, ten years. Objective C
⏹️ ▶️ John did not get that much better until Apple sort of took it and ran with it in the last decade or so.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, one of the things that was interesting to me about the review, specifically about Swift was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there was a lot of very subtle,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know, like get on board guys kind of tone to it. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey agree. I mean, I haven’t really played with Swift much because I’ve barely had time for anything lately, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything I’ve seen is really impressive. And your review just made it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even more impressive being able to see exactly how a lot of this stuff is held together.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I agree with you. I mean, for all the curmudgeons out there, I don’t think that’s really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey necessary. I really think this is going somewhere good.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I was most interested in. Like, I was coming at it from my perspective. I’m using high-level languages all day. I’m using
⏹️ ▶️ John with memory or so far from being efficient. Just so, basically I’m dealing with incredibly slow languages from the perspective of someone
⏹️ ▶️ John dealing with C, Objective-C, or C++, right? But it’s great because you don’t have to worry about all these
⏹️ ▶️ John concerns that people dealing with lower level language has to deal with. It’s just so much more efficient and productive.
⏹️ ▶️ John And Swift, the promise of Swift was like, we’re going to be,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a low level language with a high level syntax. We’re going to span this huge range. And when you use it, it’s going to feel like
⏹️ ▶️ John so nice. You don’t have to worry about all these little details. We’ll take care of it for you, whatever. When you run it, it’s going to be fast like those
⏹️ ▶️ John other languages that you had to spend all day writing type names a million times and using funny syntax and worrying
⏹️ ▶️ John about memory and pointers and all sorts of other stuff. Like that’s the promise of the language.
⏹️ ▶️ John And what I was interested in is, from the perspective as a high level language programmer, how can you possibly
⏹️ ▶️ John make that fast? Because all these other high level languages you’ve used, even when huge amounts
⏹️ ▶️ John is the best example that it has had just like millions and millions, probably billions of dollars and some of the
⏹️ ▶️ John smartest programmers in the entire world focusing on trying to make this terrible language that someone made a long
⏹️ ▶️ John time ago fast because everywhere because you have to it’s in the web browser right and then lesser languages like Perl
⏹️ ▶️ John or Ruby or Python have far fewer brains and far less money also trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John make them fast because they’re running on the servers you know and then you’ve got Java which is a whole other thing but like the nice
⏹️ ▶️ John high-level languages that people really love trying to trying to make that language fast
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s easy to make a low-level language fast it’s straightforward like see you can say like
⏹️ ▶️ John I can totally you know it I can see If you look at C, you can see the assembly. It’s like portable, sound like,
⏹️ ▶️ John I can see exactly what that goes into, like all the dots connected, whatever. But if you’re gonna have a high level language like Java,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s so much harder to be efficient because you have to like, to make things fast, you have to tie things
⏹️ ▶️ John down. But if you tie things down, it’s a pain in the butt to use. And so I wanted to know is, you know, in a language
⏹️ ▶️ John like Swift, where even what we think of as the basic types, like integers and strings are defined in a library,
⏹️ ▶️ John how can you possibly get that to be fast? How can you sort of bolt that infrastructure all
⏹️ ▶️ John the way down into the compiler. And it’s not easy. Like if Swift had been invented in a vacuum, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John So it just, this is the syntax. It looks like this, but all I’m doing is typing. And then you just handed that language spec off
⏹️ ▶️ John to somebody and said, now make this really fast. There are so many different approaches you can take.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you are not, you know, Chris Ladner and his team or someone who has written LLVM and Clang and everything,
⏹️ ▶️ John you could take the approach that for example, Perl or Python or Ruby have taken and they have changed their approaches over
⏹️ ▶️ John The way they made this engine for a high level language, you know, for example,
⏹️ ▶️ John a library whose source code you can see, like they’re part of the language. And even in C, like integer is part of the language
⏹️ ▶️ John or, you know, short or float, like that’s part of the language. That’s not a library that you can plug
⏹️ ▶️ John in. And in Swift, they made everything a library and then just found this clever way to bolt that
⏹️ ▶️ John library to what they knew would be the implementation of the language. So that I found fascinating.
⏹️ ▶️ John And what I tried to pick was the easiest possible example. And it still expanded into thousands of words
⏹️ ▶️ John of annotated source dumps or whatever. But that’s more or less as simple as I can get it. But I think
⏹️ ▶️ John the implementation is fascinating. I think the language, I’m a high-level language type
⏹️ ▶️ John of guy. And I hate all of the static typing stuff that everyone complains about about Swift. I hate that stuff too.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to deal with types at all. I want everything to be dynamic. I don’t want anything to be tied down.
⏹️ ▶️ John So in that respect, Swift is totally against my personal taste. I don’t think static typing is
⏹️ ▶️ John necessary to make good code. I link to a lot of things that people, you know, there’s a lot of things on the web, on both sides of this argument. I link
⏹️ ▶️ John to some of the better known pieces in the Swift section about how dealing with type systems is BS
⏹️ ▶️ John and it just gets in your way and I don’t want to deal with that crap at all. And the errors that you think it’s saving, it’s all just
⏹️ ▶️ John voodoo. And really, if you just had a dynamic language, everybody would be better and happier and more productive. And that’s what really matters. And blah,
⏹️ ▶️ John blah, blah. We can all have that debate, but bottom line is Swift is not that kind of language. Swift
⏹️ ▶️ John is trying to be the button-down, tied-down, static-everything language that I really hate, but trying
⏹️ ▶️ John to make it palatable. And it’s super interesting in that respect. So if you came away from that thinking,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think Swift is awesome, Swift is not the language that I would design. Like, it doesn’t look like, it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John match my tastes at all, but it does match its creator’s tastes. And it does match
⏹️ ▶️ John the, it is a good fit for the mission that the creator set out for the language.
⏹️ ▶️ John What it doesn’t match up with so much is, if you really, really like Objective-C and you love dynamic
⏹️ ▶️ John dispatching, you loved, you know, calling, you know, selectors, making selectors out of strings
⏹️ ▶️ John and then calling them and doing all that good stuff, which again, I’m with you. I’m using even higher level languages.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m totally with you, right? But that’s not the language Swift is. And that is a source of tension. And that’s, I don’t know how they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John going to deal that. And plus, Swift has to deal with all the Objective-C integration, which is such a pain in the butt that’s putting warts all over.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, why is this warting Swift? Why the hell is this here? Why does this work this way? What’s this special case rule? It’s all because it’s got to work with existing
⏹️ ▶️ John Objective-C libraries in a semi-idiomatic way. And it’s all, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not afraid to have warts. And it’s got plenty of them. But I just hope five years from now, this
⏹️ ▶️ John experiment goes well and that all the people who are cranky about it,
⏹️ ▶️ John I guess, will join the people who are cranky about.syntax. I guess it’s probably the same people. People are
⏹️ ▶️ John just like, time marches on, and some new kid coming up five years from now, hopefully, will start
⏹️ ▶️ John learning his iOS development in Swift and think it’s perfectly fine and natural. And if he ever sees Objective-C,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be like, oh, God, what were you guys doing? I hope it will be OK.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’ll be OK. smart people behind it. So I’m optimistic.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s funny how many people have talked to a developer friends of mine, usually in the Microsoft world, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey nevertheless developers have spoken to over the last few years who have said, Oh yeah, you know, I’d really like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to mess around with writing an iPhone app, but Oh God, that objective C syntax, I can’t even look
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at it. It’s so bad. Those
⏹️ ▶️ John people are never going to write an app anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Like that. Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John the square brackets is the least of the, but I’m just saying like if you come from another mobile platform and you’re like,
⏹️ ▶️ John what, I have to dereference pointers? Why are all these stars on your declarations? Have you seen C? It’s like, what
⏹️ ▶️ John are you guys doing? I don’t have to deal with any of that stuff. I don’t, you know. So in that respect,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I’ve gotten people complaining to me that Swift is not a higher level language than Objective-C, which I think is crazy. That’s why
⏹️ ▶️ John I put that whole section in there, which is a reference that Casey doesn’t get the title of, to show, look,
⏹️ ▶️ John this, if you just have a passing familiar, look, high level language, look, no pointers, ma,
⏹️ ▶️ John look, native, quote unquote, native strings. I can just do basic things. I have collection classes, it’s just
⏹️ ▶️ John there. It’s just all that stuff that we’ve been adding to Objective-C with literals and everyone’s happy. It’s like, no, regular
⏹️ ▶️ John language should just have that. It is a convincing high level language at a glance before
⏹️ ▶️ John you know what’s going on with it and everything. And yet some people are saying, Swift’s not really a high level language because it has static dispatch
⏹️ ▶️ John and I need to make my selector names out of strings call them. If I can’t do that, it sucks.
⏹️ ▶️ John Inherit from NSObject, use the Objective-C runtime. You can still kind of do it. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John that chasm will be solved by old people retiring. Oh
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my god. I love you, John. All right. So on page 22,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of quick notes. First, there is a link, the first of actually what ended up being
⏹️ ▶️ Casey many links to MSDN, which made my C-sharp developing heart smile.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And additionally, I wanted to ask you, was all of the work figuring
⏹️ ▶️ Casey out this glue between Swift and the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey x86 opcode? Was that all your work by yourself? Did you have help with that? How did that come to be?
⏹️ ▶️ John I have help with all these things. I lean on these smart people that I have contact with to ask questions
⏹️ ▶️ John and to help me run experiments or whatever. But I mean, the good thing is that like, you only need like a little
⏹️ ▶️ John shove in the right direction by smart people. Like they don’t need to hold your hand through
⏹️ ▶️ John Because I have all the tools at my disposal. Like all these, this is one good, you know, the developer tools, even though Swift has changed
⏹️ ▶️ John a million times. It’s, I mean, maybe it’s just because that’s an environment I feel natural in, like I’m programming all day.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s my job, right? All you got to do is point me in the right direction. I have the command I can write code,
⏹️ ▶️ John I can, you know, I can figure out flags to commands, I can, you know, write a little test programs,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I can figure it out. I just need to be like, you know, you should
⏹️ ▶️ John look over here and think about this, and that’s why I picked this super simple example, because I’m not particularly familiar with
⏹️ ▶️ John x86-64 assembly, so I can’t just look at this and know what it is. I had to look up all the stupid things,
⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s why it’s like, what’s the simplest thing? Adding two numbers together. I can handle that. Like, I don’t want to get fancy.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s going to be hard enough for me to figure out the adding two numbers together. But I just had questions. I just didn’t know how it worked. And
⏹️ ▶️ John I wanted to figure it out. And so, yeah, I had a lot of help with this, but mostly in terms
⏹️ ▶️ John of like, here’s what you want to look at. Here’s what you want to do.
⏹️ ▶️ John This example will be instructive for this thing, because I would have questions about, well, what about this and that or whatever?
⏹️ ▶️ John And it would be like, actually, if you’re interested in that concept, but this example is different. And so even some of my examples
⏹️ ▶️ John I was led to was like, the example you’re trying to do will never explain that concept
⏹️ ▶️ John to you. Use this example instead. So I mean, it’s true with all these things. So like ARC was the other
⏹️ ▶️ John one was in a similar vein of like, you know, ARC was explained fairly well, but there’s like a lot of questions
⏹️ ▶️ John about like, how exactly does it work inside and how does it relate to it? And like, and you know, even
⏹️ ▶️ John just like the why. It’s like getting to talk to people who are involved in the process and they’re like, why
⏹️ ▶️ John ARC not object, why ARC and not garbage collection? Like why specifically? Let’s get into the, like the Swift
⏹️ ▶️ John section was the most similar, I think, to the ARC section. It’s no coincidence that it’s, you know, both developer technologies,
⏹️ ▶️ John both, you know, in sort of the same vein and the same kind of team doing stuff. So.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I thought this, the section was extremely interesting and I haven’t worried
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about assembly in a long time and in getting pretty much all the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way down to that level was a fun adventure into things I’ve long forgotten. So I really
⏹️ ▶️ John And like, and people who like actually know this stuff, and use like, like Mike Ash or something like that,
⏹️ ▶️ John there’s nothing groundbreaking this and anyone who cared could have figured all this out and probably did, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, all the people are actually writing Swift, like if you go to what is Mike Ash’s thing, Friday q&a or
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever, like, there is some amazing, like, those guys actually know what they don’t need any help from Apple to figure out
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple should hire them if if they’re not like I was probably tried to hire them anytime like right you know what
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean like I that’s that’s a whole other category of thing I’m just like pecking on the outside
⏹️ ▶️ John here getting help from those type of people so it’s there is no groundbreaking stuff here it’s just you know
⏹️ ▶️ John this is what I is and which is why I think I tried to explain it to people even farther outside
⏹️ ▶️ John like if I can if I can have it explained to me and figure it out I feel like I might be able to explain
⏹️ ▶️ John it to someone else so that’s why like even though that section seems like it’s impenetrable, I feel like anybody,
⏹️ ▶️ John even if you know almost nothing about computers, can be led through it and you get the gist of it. You’re not going to know all the little details.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know all the little details. Like a lot of it is just output from the compiler
⏹️ ▶️ John that I can sort of figure out more or less what it’s doing, again, because the thing is so simple. And I can
⏹️ ▶️ John say, this is that inline. Why is this that inline? Because I can look. It’s the same stuff, but it’s put over there. And I can figure
⏹️ ▶️ John out the, I know enough about assembly. I can figure out, well, some things are different because the arguments are in different places. But
⏹️ ▶️ John if you know the concepts, it’s like, how do you return from a function? They’re basic concepts that everybody would learn
⏹️ ▶️ John in a CS class. Armed with even just that, you can more or less make heads or tails of this type of
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. So I’m sort of an ambassador to people who know slightly less than I do. And
⏹️ ▶️ John I know way less than the people who actually know what the heck they’re doing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. The next thing I wanted to comment on was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the what’s SIL stand for swift intermediate language. Is that right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Intermediate or intermediary? Yeah, one of those two words.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Well, either way, you’d made you had written at some point, and I believe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was on page 23, although I don’t know if that’s correct. It’s possible that the larger purpose
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of SIL has not yet been revealed. Do you have any particular thoughts about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what that might mean? Like, do you have any thoughts as to what SIL would be used for?
⏹️ ▶️ John No, if I had it, I would have put it in there. I just get it like… So in those diagrams, this is not a
⏹️ ▶️ John minor thing, right? Adding an entirely new intermediate representation
⏹️ ▶️ John and language that essentially, that no one writes things in, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John That is a significant step. And is that… It’s just like, well, we needed to do that because LLVM
⏹️ ▶️ John IR doesn’t have… doesn’t retain enough information about the source language for us to perform certain optimizations. Yes, that’s totally true. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like why it’s there, right? And it is interesting, but that’s a long way to go. So I have,
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe that’s all there is to it. Like, I don’t have any inside information. I’m not hinting at anything. If I had a theory, I’d be telling it to
⏹️ ▶️ John you now. All it is is like, it just seems like another big box in the diagram
⏹️ ▶️ John and another language to support for the people building these tools. They must have thought it was important enough
⏹️ ▶️ John to, you know, because they could have like left that phase out and just tried to bridge the gap between
⏹️ ▶️ John LLVM IR and the source code with
⏹️ ▶️ John a smarter compiler. I mean, it’s like what Clang does for C and C++. They didn’t make a new intermediary language for those things. We can
⏹️ ▶️ John more or less draw a line from those languages, even though they’re fairly complicated, especially C++. We don’t need
⏹️ ▶️ John a whole other third representation in the middle there. But for Swift, they did. And
⏹️ ▶️ John I assume they have reason. Again, it’s so young. This may
⏹️ ▶️ John be a future-proofing thing. So much of Swift, when I look at it, I say like, this has nothing to do with where Swift
⏹️ ▶️ John is today, but they’re like, three years from now, like there’s an end game in mind. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John this is the, these are the types of optimizations I would like to be able to do three years from now. They’re barely a glimmer in my eye
⏹️ ▶️ John now. There’s no way in hell we can do those optimizations now, but I’m going to do everything in my power not to preclude them
⏹️ ▶️ John later. So maybe Sill has something to do with like leaving those doors open
⏹️ ▶️ John and saying, if I’m going to do that optimization, what am I going to need is a thing like this. And so make a thing like this now for these
⏹️ ▶️ John reasons, and later on we hope it will be useful for these reasons. There’s a lot of, that’s kind of like a programming anti-pattern,
⏹️ ▶️ John like Yagni ain’t going to need it. They need it now. They need SIL now to do the optimizations
⏹️ ▶️ John that I talked about for the generics, and they don’t need. But it’s useful for that
⏹️ ▶️ John purpose. As I said in the review, the optimization I showed and similar ones, it would be
⏹️ ▶️ John awkward or impossible. Like, would it be impossible, impossible? No, you can always do it. I mean, you can always
⏹️ ▶️ John write whatever you want when you’re writing the compile for this thing, but it’s certainly a lot easier with SIL, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John much closer to the source than LLVM IR, which is much closer to assembly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. I’m a little disappointed, but I was hoping you were being coy, but that’s all right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so I only have two more quick points or questions, I guess more points that I wanted to make.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey On that same page, which is 23, Um, in the shape of the future
⏹️ ▶️ Casey section, you made passing reference to Pearl having too many funny characters, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey made me extremely happy because I forget that you actually do acknowledge that Pearl
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not the best thing that’s ever been conceived.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, well, it was acknowledging was that other people think it has too many.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, God, never mind. I think that’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculous thing to say, because funny. It’s like saying English has funny characters. What’s all this punctuation?
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s pointless and it’s noisy. It would be so much nicer if it was just all a series of lowercase letters, which is how a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ John people write online because it’s like this weird affectation. But no, punctuation and capital letters serve a purpose.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey What’s the point of all these types? They’re just noisy.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s bad Huffman coding because it is frequently typed and
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey really super long.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you’re going
⏹️ ▶️ John to distinguish between arrays, dictionaries, and scalars, having a single character
⏹️ ▶️ John to denote each of them is much better than doing some crazy Hungarian notation, which is also much better than having no distinction and just
⏹️ ▶️ John having to remember. So I do not agree that Perl has a bunch of line
⏹️ ▶️ John I think all the punctuation in Perl, with the exception of the global variables, which are just silly nonsense left over from shell-awk
⏹️ ▶️ John hangover from years ago. But dollar sign, at, percent sign, Swift should have them, and it
⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t. But I didn’t design Swift, so there you go.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. And then my final point, which I wanted to make, was from the very last page,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey page 25. And it might have even been the very last line. Let me see. No, it’s not.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you had said, and I’m quoting, Apple has shown that it wants to succeed more
⏹️ ▶️ Casey than it fears being seen as a follower. And I thought that was extraordinarily astute and a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really, really good summary of Apple today. And I just wanted to congratulate you on that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s like, you know, the other part that’s in a similar vein, I think on that same page was like
⏹️ ▶️ John the list of things Apple will never do is slowly turning into the list of things that Apple has done, right. All like
⏹️ ▶️ John with, with the absence of Steve Jobs and Tim Cook coming on like all, you know, and Scott Forrest all leaving
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, like the rule set has changed mostly for the better.
⏹️ ▶️ John And iCloud drive is what I was thinking of with it, you know, with the the
⏹️ ▶️ John what he called with the Apple being more afraid of of not having a good product than
⏹️ ▶️ John they were like, well, aren’t you just copying Dropbox? Like what’s worse? Someone say you’re copying Dropbox or not having a feature
⏹️ ▶️ John like Dropbox that people have proven that they love. So iCloud Drive is like, you know, is it an admission
⏹️ ▶️ John of defeat? Yeah, that’s that’s what stops him from doing it. Like we can’t do that.
⏹️ ▶️ John We’ve had all this time. We’ve saying we’re not going to show people the file system. It’s like, well, we can do folders, but we’ll do them like an iOS where you got to
⏹️ ▶️ John drag things on top of each other. You know, like it was in a mountain lion and stuff like just what are you?
⏹️ ▶️ John Are you afraid of people saying you’re copying Dropbox or you’re afraid of having a crappy product? Well, for the past couple of years, you’ve had a crappier
⏹️ ▶️ John product than you needed to because of this. You know, Dropbox is a feature, not a product. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John and I don’t even know if it was the right move. Like maybe the right move would be to stick to your guns and actually do come up with something better.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if you can’t do that, going with the thing that, you know, people like is better than
⏹️ ▶️ John sticking with something super crappy. So it’s a spectrum. I don’t think this is the biggest move, but it shows
⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple’s willing shows that Apple’s willing to do it. And, you know, again, I don’t even know if I’m going to use iCloud
⏹️ ▶️ John drive. I’ve been I like everybody else who’s a nerdy person probably listening to the show. We’ve all been using Dropbox,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? I have some complaints about Dropbox, but it still has some advantages over iCloud Drive. I’m wigged
⏹️ ▶️ John out by not knowing whether everything is all synced to iCloud Drive. I’m used to looking at my little menu bar icon and seeing a little green checkmark
⏹️ ▶️ John that knows that everything is synced, not just an individual file. So I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know. But yeah, I’m glad. This is the new Apple, doing
⏹️ ▶️ John things that they normally don’t do, talking to the press more,
⏹️ ▶️ John being more open with developers, having a Swift blog that actually has more than one post on it. You know,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a brave new world.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is indeed. Any closing thoughts?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. You just read the conclusion of our review out loud and then we’ll close the podcast.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I think we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey done. I think we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco done. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week. I forgot who they even were. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John been so long. I mesmerized you. do with that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mandrill, Squarespace and Igloo and I’ll see we and we’ll see
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin cuz
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental Accidental John didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do any research Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental It was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes at
⏹️ ▶️ John atp.fm And if you’re into Twitter,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M Oh, man, I’m tired.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know what, do you want to give any more references that you got in the review or is that it?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That in terms of movies, that was it.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s pretty bad. I just think I was a trap for you. I’m sorry, Casey, but I feel like.
⏹️ ▶️ John All right, that’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s fine. That’s cool. I know I’ll never be good enough for you, John. It’s cool. Like so I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey go to a lot of therapy for this.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, like how low do we have to make the bar? How? Oh, what is what is what is
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it? Is there is there
⏹️ ▶️ John any is there any pop culture reference that you would would feel like that
⏹️ ▶️ John If another person didn’t know it, you would be surprised. Another person who lives in the same country as you, and similar
⏹️ ▶️ John age, similar income, similar life experience, and you would just be shocked
⏹️ ▶️ John if they did not get this reference.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something from Super Troopers, Spaceballs.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m saying go deeper than that. Go to Mickey Mouse. How about that? Someone who’s never heard of Mickey Mouse, has no idea
⏹️ ▶️ John who Mickey Mouse is, what Mickey Mouse looks like. Is it a mouse that crawls around the ground? Is it a bird?
⏹️ ▶️ John Nothing. Would you be like, oh my god, how can you not Mickey Mouse, like, is that what we have to go to?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really want an answer to this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John question? Oh, you’re like super
⏹️ ▶️ John troopers like that is pretty. I’m saying like, you know, because for me, what in my generation, which granted
⏹️ ▶️ John you guys are maybe a little bit younger, Star Wars is the one like start like, have you heard of Star Wars? Maybe you haven’t
⏹️ ▶️ John seen it. I don’t care if you’ve seen it, but you know, Star Wars is a thing. Maybe you’ve heard of lightsabers. Maybe, you know, a Darth Vader looks like.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey That’s all I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John asking. Right. And so and then as you go close, like, that’s my sort of baseline. And you go up like if I’m going to make
⏹️ ▶️ John a Star Wars reference, It’s like a well-known, like if I say, may the force be with you, and you’re like, what the hell are you talking about? What
⏹️ ▶️ John do you mean by force? Then I’m gonna, you know, and if you’re the same age as me and have similar life experience to me, I’m gonna be
⏹️ ▶️ John surprised. And so you always shock me with the things that you don’t know. And in this review,
⏹️ ▶️ John I had references to things on the caliber of, and sometimes identical to, Star Wars that apparently you didn’t see.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Such as? I mean, I’ll tell you if I didn’t get it. No, you didn’t get it. Well, I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe I did, and I just didn’t think it was remarkable.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’re not remarkable. Like maybe, sometimes they’re just so obvious, like, yeah, yeah, whatever Star Wars force, whatever, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey right. But it’s not remarkable.
⏹️ ▶️ John It doesn’t it doesn’t show it doesn’t come off. It crosses clever. But. Anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey disappoint you, Daddy.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s all right. I just have to adjust my expectations. It doesn’t make you a bad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to adjust. I thought I firmly placed your expectations of me so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey far down the crapper that they can’t even be found anymore.
⏹️ ▶️ John But sometimes you surprise me and like and then I move you up a few notches and then you just don’t get an obvious Star Wars reference.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then it was like, well, I don’t know what I’m dealing with here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, how come I’m the one who’s getting dragged through the mud? You know, Marco’s still here. I don’t know. I
⏹️ ▶️ John has seen Star Wars.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have seen Star Wars. It’s been a little while. I have, too. But I’ve seen it a number of times, like most human beings.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I’ve seen all six of them several
⏹️ ▶️ John When Adam is old enough to start watching Star Wars, maybe Marco will see it a few more times.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I will say I’ve only seen the episodes two and three.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I’ve only seen those once each.
⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t worry about those. You’re not going to. You will not be quizzing that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I figured. Have you even seen them more than once?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, unfortunately.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m curious. You mentioned earlier that you refused to write the phrase
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just works in the review.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What is your full list of like banned phrases that you won’t use?
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. But like, you know what I mean? It’s like you just don’t want to write cliches. And if you’re writing about Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John and you’re going to make an it just works comment, whether snarkily or sincerely.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you can say it in some other way and try to do it, we’ve read that too many times.
⏹️ ▶️ John We write about the same, if you write about the same company’s products for a long enough time, you will find
⏹️ ▶️ John yourself inevitably saying exact same things that not only other people have said, but that you have said in the past. It is a constant
⏹️ ▶️ John struggle for me not to write the exact same sentence I wrote three years ago. And it happens all the time. I will write something,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I will go back, I’ll go back to the 10.6 review, and I’ll see the exact paragraph. Because I’m the
⏹️ ▶️ John same person, more or less. And if you give me the same inputs, I tend to produce the same outputs. And I will almost word for word
⏹️ ▶️ John write a sentence I wrote three years ago. And I was like, oh. And if it’s not me, then something someone else wrote. And so
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a constant struggle to try to say the same things in a fresh and interesting way that
⏹️ ▶️ John lends new insight and doesn’t just, you know, it’s your snap to grid with Marco type thing. It doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John just snap to grid and people mentally scan, it just works, and it snaps to a
⏹️ ▶️ John grid point. And they don’t even read the words. and it’s like they’re not paying attention anymore. So I’m always trying to find some
⏹️ ▶️ John better way to say things. Maybe failing, maybe it’s like, I’m not doing it. It’s not a stunt. It’s not like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like I have a silly list that it’s just like when I’m writing, I feel like, is that what you want to go with? Really? You want to go with it? It just works.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just, you know, after whatever, 15 years of doing this, I feel like I
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t, I don’t want to have that crutch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s fair. All right, I’ll give you that. Titles? I’m a big fan of
⏹️ ▶️ John as barely part of it. You
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I wrote it. Yeah, surrogate information phone is also very good that I also
⏹️ ▶️ John Those were also tangential. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, all the good titles are tangential, but that doesn’t mean they’re not good.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, sometimes they’re unlike whatever the spent a lot of time talking about the Apple event and Yosemite
⏹️ ▶️ John were the two big topics and those were about like neither. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if we if we add up all the variations, the masking skills one is a clear winner.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t like coconuts but I’m happy with the other two. Actually that’s true I really don’t like coconut.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Neither do I but I like the title.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like coconut?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Coconut’s terrible. Yep.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the worst is when you have unexpected coconut in things.
⏹️ ▶️ John Is it a texture thing? Like it tastes like paper do you? It just doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John You got a toasted coconut on the outside of a donut?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Eww. Coconut shrimp is
⏹️ ▶️ John good you know like mounds
⏹️ ▶️ John cheap yeah well it’s not a great candy but no I like coconut
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no unexpected coconut when you when you bite into a candy or when it’s on some kind of cake it’s that’s the worst or it’s if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s in cookies that’s the worst
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s a texture thing like do you like coconut drinks if the texture was removed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean the texture is terrible but so is the taste they’re both terrible
⏹️ ▶️ John yep the texture definitely takes some getting used to but most people again most people born here get the same way we get used
⏹️ ▶️ John to peanut butter which grosses out the rest of the world. If most people who are around here get used to coconut which
⏹️ ▶️ John has a weird texture I totally admit but I like the flavor.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Have it with your sprite.