83: Entering the iTouch Phase of My Life

18 Sep 2014

Marco explains photography to Casey, John explains watches to Marco, and Casey explains credit cards to Europeans.

Episode Description:

• Pre-Show: Inexpensive tablets
• Follow-up:
  • More on Retina displays for the Mac
    • Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3, and Skylake
  • iPhones 6 and 6 Plus
    • Optical image stabilization
    • Matt Panzarino's awesome iPhones review
    • Barefeats benchmark
    • Marco teaches Casey about photography
  • Android Wear versus Galaxy Gear
  • Apple's and Google's rates on payments
    • Quora article
    • Financial Times
  • Whether we're blind to Android doing things first
    • ATP #1
  • Apple Watch's potential pricing
    • Solid gold cases
    • Veblen goods
    • Gruber's analysis
    • Buying experience
      • Scott McNulty's tweet
      • Apple Store in Grand Central Terminal
    • Cases, fashion, and personalization
    • Closeup of Apple Watch Sport
    • Stickers commercial
    • Offline features
    • Send text messages in languages with pictographic/Logogram alphabets
      • Graffiti
    • Battery indicator
      • Charging Citizen Eco Drive watches
• Post-show:
  • The U2 thing
  • Apple Privacy Announcement
  • Charlie Rose Part 1 and Part 2
  • Marco accidentally releases an iPad app
    • Replacing launch images with storyboards

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco We apparently just missed an Amazon announcement. Let’s see. What? Amazon just released another tablet.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Thought it was another Kindle.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, I gotta look it up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, whatever. Do we actually give it a shot? It doesn’t, I mean, how, you know, if you look at the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco impact that the Kindle Fire, in general, the tablet line, I mean, not the stupid phone, if you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco look at the impact that the Kindle Fire tablets have had on the tablet market as a whole, I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco almost everybody would be able to look at it and say, that’s not nearly as big of a deal as we thought it it was when it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco was released. I think we all said, you know, oh, this is gonna, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this tablet’s so cheap, they’re gonna get a huge market share, it’s gonna be a big deal. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from what we can tell, it seems like it sells okay. But it’s not really setting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the world on fire or anything. Like, it isn’t the only cheap Android tablet anymore. And it was never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the best cheap Android tablets. And so it was, you know, it ended up not really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco mattering that much. Like there’s tons of cheap Android tablets out there, many of them cheaper than this. Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco software has always been mediocre at best. So yeah, it just it just never seems to matter

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as much as we think it will.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know, this these devices must be awesome, because the sub headline

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or whatever you call this is inexpensive may not have to be garbage,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey could be garbage, but may not. Like that’s not Oh, these are the best Amazon Kindle

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey fire fire tablets ever. It’s inexpensive, may not have to be garbage.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So let’s start with talking about quad 27 inch retina

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey displays. Again, this is awesome. I love this. I’m so excited.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John There should be a link there, I guess. Back to the same thing. But no, it’s because last week when Marco

⏹️ ▶️ ^John talked about it, he mentioned that the only Mac that’s for sale that this could conceivably work with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is the Mac Pro because it’s the only one with two Thunderbolt buses. And everybody

⏹️ ▶️ ^John heard two Thunderbolt buses as two Thunderbolt ports. And then we got all the email from everyone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John telling us all the other Macs that have two Thunderbolt ports on them. Ports are not the same thing as buses. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a limited amount of bandwidth per bus. And even though you may have two ports, if they all lead to the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bus, it’s not like you get twice the bandwidth. Two buses, like the Mac Pro has, it’s only

⏹️ ▶️ ^John two, is it? Three. Maybe it’s three. It

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} is three,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah. Anyway, the Mac Pro has a whole bunch of Thunderbolt buses and there’s a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John diagram showing you all of those like six ports on the back or something.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, and then and it also connects the HDMI port and it’s the reason why it can have three

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is not because like they spent an extra 30 bucks on the ports on the motherboard. It’s because of Thunderbolt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco basically connects directly to the CPU. And so the CPU has to support this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and it has to have a certain number of PCI Express lanes run into it, and all these like these bandwidth limited things that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco run to the CPUs. And the reason why the Mac Pro uses Xeon CPUs, well

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one of the many reasons it uses Xeons, is because the Xeon E5 series, which it uses,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco has tons more PCI Express lanes that run directly to the CPU. And so they can do things like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have two GPUs that can talk to each other at extremely high bandwidth and also have enough

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco PCI Express lanes so that they can run three individual Thunderbolt buses for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the most part purely to the CPU. There’s a little bit of a trick there with the switch but yeah look at it in a text review. Anyway

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Intel’s consumer CPU line which is what every other Mac uses never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco has enough ports for this. I mean maybe in the future they might add this but it’s very unlikely. Not ports, buses.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Right, right. So it so the like it isn’t it isn’t only that that the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Mac Pro is the only one that can do this but that like it’s not like next year there’s gonna be a MacBook Pro that can do this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Like it’s It’s probably gonna be not until Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 3

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is arriving with the sky lake something lake sky lake Yeah, the code name after

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco whatever comes after broad, but I believe it’s called sky lake or it’s s something like when that arrives Then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’ll then the consumer CPUs will be able to have enough bandwidth to run these kind of displays

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over one cable Into one bus, but that is still probably at least

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a year and a half off where that can even start to become a thing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So like I was saying we should put in the show notes the diagram on the back of a Mac Pro which tells you which

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Of those six ports is connected to bus number one which is connected to bus number two and so it’s not as straightforward as like The

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one that left or on one bus and the one on the right or another it’s this weird pattern But anyway, that’s that’s why the Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ ^John would be the only option for this now display port 1.3 was announced And I think you posted about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that as well Marco. How does that factor into this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Thunderbolt 3 has enough bandwidth to run one of these. So Thunderbolt 2, basically what you need

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is, depending on whether you can trick it into running at 24-bit or whether you keep sending

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 32-bit like most display interfaces do because it’s easier, you need either 21 gigabits per second

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or 28 gigabits per second. The current Thunderbolt 2 limit is 20, so neither

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of those will fit no matter how you do it. As long as it’s 60 Hertz, you still can’t do it. and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco anything lower than 60Hz sucks, so that’s no good. Thunderbolt 3, I think, raises

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it up to 30 or something. It raises it higher than the 28, so it can then handle this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco What I expect to happen here, I expect that we have a very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco good chance of seeing a Retina iMac this year, because an iMac, you know, when you have a built-in

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco display, whether it’s a laptop or an iMac-style computer, Those displays don’t connect

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over internal Thunderbolt cables. They connect over a different bus. I know it used to be like the LVDS

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco thing. Do you know, John? Is that kind of stuff still used?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I have no idea how the display in an iMac is connected, but other than the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fact that it’s not a Thunderbolt cable that’s connecting it from one place to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco another. So in a laptop or in an iMac, you can avoid these issues with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco way their displays are interfaced to their video cards. It’s more of like a direct connection. I guess, Casey,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you don’t know either. Do you?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey No, not off the top of my head.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Okay, so none of us know exactly how this works. But I know that it’s roughly that these things use their

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco own kind of like internal signaling mechanisms that don’t have the same limitations as these external

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cable standards. So I think, because like, so if Apple released

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this, you know, they’re calling it 5k, or Dell’s calling it this. If Apple released a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco 5k resolution, or quad 27, or quad right now, whatever you’re calling it, if Apple releases one of these

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco monitors only the Mac Pro could run it and that’s not a particularly graceful

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco product launch I don’t think they would do that I think they would probably wait until

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco every new Mac could do it and that’s probably gonna be two more years but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the Retina iMac could happen this year theoretically or you know late this year or early

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco next year I don’t know if it will but it could and and so I I suspect

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we’re going to see retina 5k panels in IMAX before we’re going to see

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco them from Apple as external monitors.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I mean, I think that sounds fair. All right, moving on for more follow up optical

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey image stabilization. Tell me about how you were wrong, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, sure. So I was under the impression from forever ago, I don’t know where I read this,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that the way optical image stabilized SLR lenses worked, was that there was actually a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco spinning glass element in them and that it spun quickly enough that it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would have its own kind of gyroscopic stabilization so that when you move the lens, the lens would, or the spinning

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco element would shift to kind of undo that. Turns out that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco completely wrong and the way SLR image stabilization works is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very similar or identical to the way that it works in the new iPhone 6,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco which is, or the 6 Plus, which is that an accelerometer detects motion and then

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco using electromagnets shifts around the, or actuators or something, electrically shifts around

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the lens, you know, X times per second to compensate for it. There is a floating element in that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s not tied down, but it does not spin. So yeah, I was totally wrong

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey about that. So if you’ll allow me to piggyback on that briefly, today was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the day, or last night, whenever, recently was the time that the 6 and 6

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Plus reviews all came out. of the embargo was lifted. And one thing that I saw fairly consistently

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey between all the six and six plus reviews was people saying that the six plus battery life

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey really is demonstrably better and longer than. Then previous phones and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey even the six itself, and I don’t know about you guys, but when they flashed the chart on the screen

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of, you know, standby time’s a little bit longer and this and that is a little bit longer, none of that looked that dramatic

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to me except like playing music, but nevertheless, a lot of people are saying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in Matt Panzerino, TechCrunch is a great example of this, are saying that the six plus actually has

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey somewhat considerably better battery life. And that actually surprised me quite a bit.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think it’s just perception versus seeing numbers on a table. You’re doing the math in your head, you’re subtracting 1411. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a difference of three, that’s three hours. And the experience of three extra hours of time

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is much greater than you seeing those two numbers up on the screen. So I think Apple’s numbers are probably in the ballpark, All this stuff

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is fuzzy anyway. I just, I just think the, any difference in battery life gets magnified

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when you’re, when it, you know, the plus is just consistently still alive while the iPhone six is dead. And if

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s still alive for like one hour, two hours, like that feels like forever. It feels like, Oh wow, this iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John six plus is amazing when it’s just, I think probably a reasonable reflection of the numbers that will put up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, from, from like a raw capacity perspective, I believe the parts leaks indicated that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the 6 Plus’s battery was something like 50% larger than the 6’s battery. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco there is a lot more capacity there. Of course the question is, you know, how much more does it use for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that big screen and everything and the display scaler. And the upclock CPU too. Yeah, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I posted a link earlier on Twitter to a Barefeet’s benchmark where I don’t think, has anyone else confirmed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this yet? It sure looks like from this Barefeet’s benchmark that the 6 Plus

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco does have a slightly higher clock speed, probably in the range of 5-10% on its CPU, so it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco does have 5-10% better CPU performance than the 6, which is similar to the Retina

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco iPad Mini and the iPad Air. Both have the A7 CPU

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and they’re both technically identical in most ways, except that on the iPad Air it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is clocked slightly higher, similar, like 5% or 10% higher. the iPad Air is slightly faster

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco than the Retina Mini with the quote same CPU. So it looks like we have basically that exact same

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco difference between the six and the six plus six pluses slightly faster. In reality,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, the six plus has all these like fairly minor improvements over the six

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco beyond the screen. So it has more battery life, you know, maybe maybe in practice,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe it’s 20, 20, 25% more, you know, like once you account for the screen and everything, it has

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a higher DPI screen, you know, so it’s It’s a sharper screen, even like according to John Gruber, even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco even with the with the scaling it’s doing, it still ends up being sharper looking than the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco other screens. It has a now we know it has a slightly faster CPU

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and then it has the optical image stabilization, which people are saying does make a small

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco difference, but it is a difference and it is better.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, speaking of I don’t have it handy, so I’m going to butcher the description. But in Pansorino’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey review, he was saying, I think that you get a couple of f-stops more with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the optical image stabilization. Is that right? I don’t know anything

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco about photography. Yeah, the way this works and this this is what actually impressed me way more so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco panserini and I saw this mostly in the ones he was tweeting last night when he was tweeting the stats and everything

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco um and like you know tweeting like you know what the iso was what the shutter speed was for these shots

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what’s interesting is so you know image image stabilization, keep in mind that it cannot stabilize your

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco subject. So if you are like moving, if you’re in a moving vehicle or

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if you’re otherwise moving like substantially or your subject is moving, if it’s a person

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for instance or a pet, you know, image stabilization does not help you there at

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all. You still need a fast shutter speed to freeze the motion. Where image stabilization

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco does help quite a lot is if you’re taking a picture like at night of a building or something or a landscape,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, like that it helps tremendously there. And so what it allows you to do basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is compensate for very for the very small hand movement. So if you try to take like a long exposure shot

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco without a tripod, just handheld, it’s pretty hard to get that to be remotely sharp just because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of tiny movements you make without even realizing it with your hands and your body while you’re holding the shutter

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco down. Image stabilization lets you generally like on an SLR a good stabilizer

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’ve been able to handhold a shot up to roughly a second exposure which is very very long for a camera

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to have a one second exposure. I can hand hold that with a good stabilizer and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the picture turns out sharp. It’s going to be a little bit different with one that’s this small for various reasons

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but the the result is that the shutter can stay open longer and it can still be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sharp compared to an unstabilized image. What this means is that the phone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is able to drop the sensitivity down so the sensitivity also it’s called ISO in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco EXIF data. You know, so the numbers are like 400, 800, 1600. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the higher sensitivity generally, and I’m sorry for anybody who knows this already, the higher sensitivity

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re basically amplifying the signal and so you get, you don’t need as much light to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco be captured but you’re also amplifying the noise that’s present at like the baseline and so that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what makes pictures grainy and noisy especially if you ever see like the color grain, that’s called chroma

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco noise, it’s one of the more obvious ones. And post-processing can attempt to remove some of this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and often times it does but then it looks kind of muddy or low contrast or like a watercolor painting. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco image stabilization lets the camera capture more light before your hand motion matters

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if the subject is being still. And therefore it can drop the sensitivity

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco down so that way you get less noise, better colors, better contrast. that helps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is in nighttime shots. So Panzerino was pushing these shots and like the one on the iPhone 6

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of this dark building at night, the one on the iPhone 6 without stabilization was like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ISO 1200 or something like that. And then the one on the iPad 6 plus the stabilization

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco was at ISO 400, way lower sensitivity, massive difference in noise basically.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so that’s where stabilization is going to seemingly help a lot in the iPhone is, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and generally, you know, it picks the ISO for you, but it looks like it’s making intelligent decisions

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on how what’s the minimum sensitivity we can use here to capture

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the image given the scene. And so the image stabilizer gives you a lot more headroom with avoiding noise

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in darkness.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So the f stop is telling me how long the shutter remained open. Is that correct?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco In this context, basically, yes. But it’s not that not a complete definition. But yeah, That’s basically

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco saying in this context, like you can get a lot more light in and therefore

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the sensitivity can be lower.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Cool. All right. Thank you. I was just curious because like I said, I know, I know almost nothing about photography. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I recognize those terms as photography related, but I wasn’t sure what specifically that was leading on

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to. Since we’ve opened this Pandora’s box, anything else about the hardware that we, none of us have any of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey hardware yet, but anything else from the reviews or anything?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well the chat room says that Jason Snell confirmed that the 6 plus is at 1.4 gigahertz versus 1.2

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for the 6, so there’s some exact numbers on the CPU speed. And by the way Gruber mentioned that the 6

⏹️ ▶️ ^John plus, it’s kind of an iPad 3 situation, where the 6 plus may be clocked higher, but it may actually need to be clocked higher,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not so much the CPU, but the GPU, because he was saying that he saw a couple of stutters on the 6 plus just because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s slinging so many pixels around, like a 3x image on this giant screen, that may be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John having a little bit extra clock speed, assuming this clock speed applies the GPU as well, that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if it’s higher than 6+, that maybe it needs it. And maybe it’s not, it’s maybe a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bit overdrawn on its CPU and GPU power bank account.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John This first generation, big, giant screen iPod, again, like the first Retina iPad was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a little bit too much.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. So speaking of people that were wrong, although I’m sure, John, you’re about to tell me that I’m wrong and saying you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey wrong. Let’s talk about Google Wallet.

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Okay, john, so tell us about Google Wallet.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That’s not the first Android thing that I got wrong. The first one was when we were discussing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John smartwatches and I was talking about the idea of taking a phone and shrinking it down and having like a little phone on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John your wrist. I used the wrong brand name for the Android wearables.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John There’s been so many of them that multiple names are floating around in my mind. I kept saying Android wear, that’s not what I was thinking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of. It’s actually Galaxy Gear, which was the one that predates Android wear. or is actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John much more like Apple’s interface? Maybe a little bit more limited because we don’t really know what kind of stuff can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John actually run on the watch. But the interfaces don’t look like. You’re not flicking through the equivalent of table

⏹️ ▶️ ^John views and looking for stuff like you were on the Galaxy Gear. So I was thinking Galaxy Gear, not Android Wear.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John My apologies for the mistake.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey OK. Now, Google Wallet?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, yeah. So last week, we were talking about the NFC thing with Apple Pay. and i

⏹️ ▶️ ^John noted that apple gets the card present rate even though a card is not actually present they get the card present rate

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because of the the inherent security in their nfc thing and i thought the touch id might have been

⏹️ ▶️ ^John part of that but uh dion garrett sent me a link to a quora article explaining the google wallet

⏹️ ▶️ ^John also gets the card present rate and of course that’s not reliant on touch id so apparently nfc

⏹️ ▶️ ^John alone is uh secure enough that uh people can get these deals where you get the card present

⏹️ ▶️ ^John rate. It’s not, it doesn’t have anything to do with Touch ID. Although there was one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John more article that unfortunately I didn’t get a chance to read, maybe we’ll throw it in the show so people can read as well, but Tim Bradshaw pointed out that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I linked to an article in the Financial Times trying to explain the how much money Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John getting for from each transaction and who is giving them that money and he made it seem like like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that Apple is actually skimming more off of each transaction than than previous

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people who attempted to insert themselves into the into the payment chain.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And that I assume most of this payment is coming from the credit card companies and the banks and not the consumers.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But again, I haven’t read that article, but we’ll put it in the show notes. And by the way, Tim Bradshaw got Tim on Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ ^John at Tim, which he must have been pretty early, huh?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I should note with regard to Apple pay that I got an email from Bank of America today

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey saying, oh, we’re going to support Apple Pay. Don’t worry. It’s coming. It’s coming. It’s coming. Which I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey remember bank of America being that forward thinking about just about anything. Now I’m one of the like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey six humans that doesn’t think bank of America is pure unadulterated evil. I’ve always had okay with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey luck with them, but I’m very surprised that they’re trying to be on the ball with this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Apple Pay thing. And I know that it was mentioned that they were one of the partners during the keynote, but actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey receiving an unsolicited communication from them saying Apple Pay is coming, Apple Pay is coming, that kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of took me back. Not a bad thing, just surprised. So let’s talk about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey some feedback from Pomo.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’ll see if I can summarize this. He basically says, I know you’re not into Android, but it always hurts

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to hear things like, how will the market react now that there is feature X for a feature that has existed before

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in the concept of NFC payments? Obviously, Apple will fare better at NFC payments than Google.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Companies seem protective when Google tries to enter market. Anyway, let me skip forward

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a little bit. As for how large iPhones will fare, you don’t have to guess these things. Large high-end phones have been around for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a while. There should be no shame in checking how they fare in the Android world. It’s fine that you’re not into Android,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but it’s sad and in such topics occasionally nerve-wracking, semicolon, two parentheses,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco when you don’t seem to know about what’s happening outside of the Apple bubble. So But basically,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, Pomo’s complaint is, it’s annoying when we talk about things Apple does

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as if they’re the first things of those type to exist, and that we don’t even look at the Android world to see, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hey, you know, not only is this not the first, but we can already see in the Android world how these things do

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in reality. So my response to him or her—isn’t—I don’t think we know.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t know off the top of my head. Anyway, my response to him or her—our pronouns are terrible in this language—is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco basically, you know, there’s two things. Number one, yeah, of course we don’t pay attention as much to Android as we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do with iOS because we don’t use Android. You know, none of us really use it on a regular basis. So there’s a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bit of that. But mainly, you know, his examples of like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco trying to predict how NFC will do, trying to predict how large screen phones will sell.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, Android has those things already. But the fact is, it’s different when Apple does things like that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It doesn’t like the market does not work the same way when Apple does something as an Android something because there’s so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco many other factors at play. So like, you know, the payment stuff, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco NFC payment stuff. Yeah, Android phones have had that for a while and no one in the US even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco knows about it. You know, and granted the rest of the world, NFC payments are

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco bigger in general and non-dumb old credit card payments are bigger in general.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco With the chip and pin stuff and everything that came before that, you know, it’s… But in the US, which is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco admittedly, not the whole world, but it’s also a pretty big market and pretty important to Apple and us.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Apple has a lot of clout. When Apple announces something like this, people pay attention. People hear it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And Apple is offering basically an integrated solution to people. Top

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to bottom, it’s branded, it will be used. It’s going to be in people’s faces.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s going to be… It’s going to have all this press and marketing behind it. It’s going to have all these deals deals made with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco retailers, no Google device manufacturer or Google itself could have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that kind of integration power. So when Apple is going to attempt NFC,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s way more likely to succeed, I think, than any of Google’s efforts. And not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco necessarily to the exclusion of Google’s efforts. Google’s efforts might also end up succeeding. But I think Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco effort will be exactly what Android fans hate the most. It will succeed

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as if it was the first one there. I’m sorry, but that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very likely to happen. And it’s not because no one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco gives Google credit, I guess. It’s because no one even knew about the Android ones in the US for the most part.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And it’s just different.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We don’t know if it will succeed or not. But the sections that I quoted from email says, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hurts to hear how the market will react for a feature as if it hasn’t existed before. And then the very

⏹️ ▶️ ^John next sentence is, obviously Apple will fare better. So I mean, obviously, this person’s been, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, if you think it’s going to fare better, then why? You’re just saying it’s the same. See,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the second part that you read is even more on the nose. As for how large iPhones

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will fare, you don’t have to guess these things. Now, first of all, I don’t think we were guessing, all right? We’ve been discussing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the market’s appetite for large phones since episode

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one, literally, of this podcast, right? And so we’re not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John guessing how large iPhones are fair, well, fair, you know, large phones have been around for a while.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s right there in the sentence, large iPhones. We know how large Android phones sell

⏹️ ▶️ ^John roughly. We don’t know how large iPhones will sell. There’s just so many, and that’s what we’re talking about. We’re not pretending,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John oh, who will buy these things? Because it’s different. It’s a large iPhone. It’s not a large Android phone. It’s a very different product

⏹️ ▶️ ^John selling into a very different market. And I don’t think we were ignorant at all that larger

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phones existed or whatever. is you can’t just extrapolate from past events and say, well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John these things have always been popular. Therefore, we know Apple. I mean, what is it that we should have done that we

⏹️ ▶️ ^John weren’t doing? Acknowledge the existence of Android phones? Check. Incorporating the appetite

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for large phones in general into the possibility of a large Apple phone existing and how it’s going to do? Check.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I feel like we checked up all the checkboxes on this. We were totally incorporating all the information at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John hand. But we then have to say, how is Apple different? And as this person’s feedback

⏹️ ▶️ ^John says, even he thinks, I think it’s he, that Apple will fare better. Why will they fare better? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s a different product with a different feature set and different deals behind it. And that’s what we discussed. So I know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s probably too long. But anyway, this feedback, I understand the frustration

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from hearing a podcast from people whose usage and knowledge centers on a different

⏹️ ▶️ ^John platform than you. But I do think we incorporated as much

⏹️ ▶️ ^John information about the precursors to these products as was relevant to predicting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John how we think they might do.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey On a somewhat related note, I think it was after the last episode that I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey saw a bunch of Europeans tweet at any one of us saying,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey wait, you guys don’t have chip and pin?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What? Yeah, they don’t know how bad it is over here.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it was hysterical. Tell them about the cable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey companies. Oh, it’s atrocious. But to extremely quickly give you an idea of how

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey bad it is here in America, we don’t have chip and pin, although now that everyone is getting all of our

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey credit card numbers, that’s supposedly coming. The other thing that Europeans could not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey understand is if you’re at a restaurant, the general way things work is you ask for a check,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they bring you the check, you give the server your credit card, they run away to some

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey terminal that could be in the back of the restaurant out of your line of sight, swipe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey your card, hopefully not skim your card, bring it back, and then you are to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey add the tip that you want to add, sign the paper, and leave it. And just hope that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey A, they didn’t skim your card, and B, they actually put the amount you want them to put

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey into the point of sale system in order to charge you. It is completely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey backwards here, and that’s one of the reasons why I think Apple Pay or or any

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey other equivalent credit card less, or well, any sort of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey NFC-based payment system might actually work because we are so backwards,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey anything will be an improvement. The only thing, and I think I might have asked, wondered this in either this show

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or the other one, I wonder if it’s going to be socially awkward at the beginning to be like, do you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey have Apple Pay? Can I do this thing with my phone? I’ve never really tried it, but I kind of want to try it. Is that okay? Do you mind?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Like, that’s going to be, I think, kind of socially weird, But I hope that we all get over that very quickly because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey we are so behind Europe when it comes to this credit card business. It’s just beyond description.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah. I was thinking like, you know, the restaurant thing is probably the biggest example. But there’s all sorts of things

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco in the US where you have to give your credit card to somebody, they swipe it, and they bring it back to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you. Oftentimes, like far away. In New Jersey, it’s all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco full-service gas stations. And so, you, as the person, you have to stay in your car

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and you sit there while somebody else pumps your gas for you and puts your credit card into the pump for you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There’s all sorts of things like that in America, with restaurants being the biggest, where

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they’re going to have to completely revamp the way they charge people, the physical process,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco how they charge people, and whether that’s going to be little wireless terminals or what they bring to you.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t know. There’s all sorts of options. there’s going to be a lot of like major,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco major disruption of minor things in the US to to make this happen.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We got feedback about that as well which I think directly echoing something Marco said in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the last show and the ideas that you know so chip and pin is coming to our country because the fraud rates have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have ticked up a little bit and now it is economically feasible for them to do that and so there’ll be new point-of-sale hardware

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and as Marco said in the last show new point-of-sale hardware is an opportunity to also have NFC in that new

⏹️ ▶️ ^John point of sale hardware. Like Apple is coming in at more or less just the right time when there’s going to be a lot of turnover

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in point of sale hardware and retail anyway. And adding NFC to the mix is, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a good thing to do is that retail stores are going to want to buy whatever the most forward looking point of sale hardware is so they

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t have to replace it again, you know, soon. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we expect the state of the art in payment processing in the US to slowly

⏹️ ▶️ ^John lurch forward towards the future. Will it be Apple Pay everywhere? Will it just be chip and pin everywhere? Will it be

⏹️ ▶️ ^John some mix? Uh, anything’s got to be better than where we are today. So I look forward to that over the next few years.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Although knowing how slowly these things go, it could be many years. So we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Do you guys like full service

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gas stations? No, nobody likes full service. I do. Nobody likes New Jersey and nobody likes full service gas. I do.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There’s someone here who does.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Why do you like full service gas? That just seems so weird. Like whenever I go, say, to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey your house, like, say I did, what was it, last weekend or the weekend before, we always, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey go up to Jersey Turnpike and go to the Token Sunoco’s, and we get our full

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey service gas. And it’s always so awkward to me. And then they like do your windshield, which is really nice. And then there’s that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey ambiguous moment where you’re like, should I tip this person? Do I need to tip this person?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They do your windshield and you think, both of you, I can’t believe both of you, like, first of all,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do you, what they’re doing your windshield with This is like a bucket full of disgusting, dirty water

⏹️ ▶️ ^John filled with sand that’s going to scratch your windshield. And then both of you, do you want someone else messing with your gas cap and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just shoving the thing in there and do it? It’s terrible. Why would you let someone touch your beautiful,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John precious, super expensive car? They don’t care about any of that stuff there. They’re just, oh, no,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not good.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Well, I don’t mind them doing the windshield, but I don’t like the idea of full service gas to begin with. I do like that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Jersey gas is considerably cheaper than any other of the surrounding states, But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I do not like full service gas. And I would even rather get out of my car in the winter when it’s freaking freezing and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey handle my own gas business than have someone come to me and ask,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey what do you want? And then you’ve got to tell them, oh, well, I want premium. And then you have to give them the eagle eye, side eye, making sure

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey they actually put in premium. I hate full service gas.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, the gas is cheaper in New Jersey because it just condenses out of the air over Newark. And then you can just put it right

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, you’re going to get so much email. Oh, that’s fantastic. Oh, that’s good times.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} Anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right. Let’s talk about something awesome. Can I tell

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey why I like full service? Oh, if you want to try to defend that ridiculous opinion, feel free.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m going to go. I’m going to go with these really lazy. What’s your guess? He’s too spoiled. The same thing. Kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} of. All right. Go

⏹️ ▶️ ^John ahead.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I like full service. First of all, there’s there’s two gas stations in my town. They’re both full service. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco they’re both like little independently owned things. And the reason I like it so much is because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I don’t have to get out of my car and get my hands covered in that gas hand smell.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Why don’t you just put like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hand sanitizer in your cars? I have. I have a like a little it’s the only time I use hand sanitizer ever

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is I have this little thing in my car.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Hand sanitizer spells worse than gas hands. Both of them are very

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} volatile, evaporate quickly,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and you don’t have to worry about it. It’s not like a lingering smell like that. You’re not going to be able to get off it. It will evaporate. It’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be fine. Trust me.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I actually think I would agree that gas hands smell better than antiseptic hands. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey whatever. It does not surprise me, Marco, that you do not want to get out of your M5 in order to pump your

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey own

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} fuel.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But you should not want those people touching your car at all. And Casey, you should not want whatever water

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’re washing your windshield with. Just go look, get out of your car and look where they’re dipping and rubbing on your windshield.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re making it dirtier. They’re not cleaning your windshield.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You say that, but especially in the summertime and especially late in the evening, my windshield is often

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey so disgusting from bugs that it’s actually almost to the point to being a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey safety hazard. And so I appreciate the fact that I can now see something, even if it’s a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey cloudier perhaps than it once was. At least it’s not completely opaque because of bugs.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Wow. Anyway, Igloo is an intranet you’ll actually like. Igloo is built with

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco easy to use apps like shared calendars, Twitter-like microblogs, file sharing, task management, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco more. You can have all of this in your intranet for your company. And most

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco intranets are terrible, as almost anybody who’s ever used one can attest.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Igloo is so good. It is everything you need to work better together in a very configurable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco cloud platform. You can learn more at igloosoftware.com slash ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco With Igloo’s responsive design, your internet already works like a champ on virtually any device,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco iOS, Android, even Blackberry. If you actually, I guess in the corporate world, it’s probably important to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco have Blackberry support, but even there, I mean, do people still use Blackberries? No. John, do you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John see any Blackberries at your job? I have. I still do see them. They still do exist.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You probably are the most normal job. You’re probably exposed to the most normal people in your job by the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco three of us. Would you say that? Or Casey, you think you are with clients and stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, see, it’s a tough call. My actual employer is relatively progressive and small. But a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey lot of the companies we work with are huge financial services companies. And they’re,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey let’s just go with different. Nice.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Anyway, if your company is still unfortunate enough to have Blackberry users, Igloo will even work

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on those. They are that good. It also even works on your new iPhone 6 Plus right from the very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco start. They’ve already tested it and it works. So you can review a document, you can post a project update, you can

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco change administrative settings or talk about how that U2 album snuck onto your iTunes library all from your phone,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco no matter who makes your phone or what size it is. Plus, when you design your Igloo intranet, any

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco change you make to the look and feel carries across all of these devices. The file preview

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco engine is also fully HTML5 compatible, so if one of your coworkers uploads a proposal or a JavaScript

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco file, you can preview inline, add comments, upload new versions, or assign action items

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from your phone. Just this week, Gartner, the big analyst firm,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco released their famed Magic Quadrant for social software in the workplace. That sounds awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Igloo appears in this Magic Quadrant report for the sixth consecutive year, alongside tech giants like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Microsoft, IBM, Google, VMware, Salesforce.com, and SAP. Is it SAP

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or SAP? SAP. I’m going to go with SAP. In a report that values the size of the vendor, in Gartner terms,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that means viability, Igloo is praised for their responsiveness and customer experience.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco This quadrant thing. Oh, man, I saw this once at a company. It was… Oh, there are so many… It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all full of business terms. To me, it might as well be be written in a different language. Like, if business people understand

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it, I don’t. But anyway, if you understand it, Igloo ranks very well in it. Here’s an excerpt

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco from Gartner’s profile of Igloo. Feedback from Igloo’s reference customers was consistently positive.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco They praised the product’s quick deployment, configuration, and customization flexibility with self-service options

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for non-technical users, control over branding, and information organization and ease of use. They also praised

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the responsiveness of Igloo as an organization. So if you understood that and your company has a legacy internet

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco built on SharePoint or old portal technology, you should definitely give Igloo a try. They’re way better than that. They’re cool

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people. They’re big fans of our work and all of our friends’ work. They’ve supported us for years.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And I can’t say enough. If you need an internet, start with them. And one of the cool things

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is you can get up to 10 people on Igloo for free. They have this free tier, zero to 10

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people. I guess zero isn’t really a usage, but one to 10 people on Igloo,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it’s free. that it’s very reasonably priced. So check it out. Go to igloosoftware.com

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco slash ATP. Once again igloosoftware.com slash ATP for an intranet you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco will actually like.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey You know just to build on that I am not a fan of the Gartner analyses

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but I am a fan of igloo. The quadrant report. Yeah oh it’s so bad. It’s so businessy. I need a shower.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey They’re magic

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco quadrants. Regular quadrants are boring and unmagical. Magic quadrants can revolutionize

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco your industry with reference customer relationships.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, it’s so bad. But igloo is very good. So if you’re turned off by hearing the word Gartner,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey don’t be turned off about igloo because they’re awesome. Anyway, we can talk about the Apple Watch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yes, that was right after we finished the last show where we were talking about, you know, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple Watch starts at 349. Where does it end? And we were all given our different numbers and stuff, right? Oh, we were way

⏹️ ▶️ ^John off. Right after it was over. I I saw a tweet that said, did you know the Apple Watch is solid

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gold? And no, I did not know that. I mean, I think we even said gold plated on the show. Apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the gold watch is not some other metal with gold plating on it, but is in fact solid gold alloy, some

⏹️ ▶️ ^John metal that is a very high proportion of gold. And so that takes all of our estimates and just based on the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John raw materials alone, just shoves them up thousands of dollars. So forget about what we said in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John last show. Solid gold totally changes the equation. Now, there’s still the question of, all right, so it’s solid gold.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John All of our estimates go up by a few thousand bucks, whatever the remaining question is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What we were getting at last show will Apple be willing to charge a price for its product that is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just massively out of whack With the cost of materials and labor and so on and so forth So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for example if they could get a you know, 50% product margin selling their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John high-end watch for $8,000 Would they say well, that’s a 50% margin.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Why don’t we sell it for? for 16,000, no additional cost of materials, but I was saying, but you know what?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John At this price range, what the hell? Who cares? Just crank that number up.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think so.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And that’s the question. Like, when you get to, like, do you craft, there’s a name for this.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Veblen goods, or,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} yeah. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like when, instead of the, when the demand, oh, I’m gonna get this wrong. Someone

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Google it so I don’t have to try and say it since I’m talking, but anyway, it’s once you reach the very high

⏹️ ▶️ ^John end, the rules of supply and demand go all wacky, and suddenly the price starts going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John up and up and up as the number of people who can afford it goes down and it just becomes like a status symbol

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or something that you want to buy because if it’s rarity, the kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of like, you know, there’s not gonna be many people with this watch or whatever, anyway, we don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what Apple’s gonna do in that area, which is why I still think it’s really interesting to see what the price is gonna be, but I think we already know just based

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the fact that it’s solid gold, that the price of this thing is gonna be huge, high that it will

⏹️ ▶️ ^John eliminate almost everybody from even looking at that watch except for the very wealthy.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And Gruber had his watch review up and he talked about this as well and we didn’t really talk about it too much. Now that we know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that these things are going to be comfortably into the super expensive jewelry category at the high end,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so many more questions open up. One of the ones that has been discussed is who’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going to buy something that expensive when it has built-in obsolescence in a way that like a Rolex

⏹️ ▶️ ^John does not?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, that’s a big one. I wonder, first of all, I definitely recommend

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco anybody interested in the watch and its pricing and the watch market read Gruber’s article about this, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco very, very good and very relevant to this. Because he knows, clearly he knows more about the watch market than

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco we do. And so I think, you know, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco looking very, very likely based on how much watches that are just made from these

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco metals usually sell for. Yeah, I think it’s safe to say the gold one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is probably going to be at least $5,000, probably at least $10,000, just because of the amount of gold in it. I mean, gold is very, very expensive,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and it’s solid gold. It’s just a lot of metal,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as we said. So the question, I think, is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, you can look at this and you can say, all right, well, Apple might be in this for just wanting

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the kind of margins that these kind of high-fashion things come in, especially something like this. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco priced as some multiple of a precious metals

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco value. So it’s a decent multiple of an already expensive source

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco material. So you can look at it and say, maybe Apple wants just the margins. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Apple wants that kind of product in their line to be fancy and profitable.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco The other possibility that I thought of is maybe, you know, maybe Apple’s goal here is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco necessarily to make a ton of money on watches, but to sell a lot of watches.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And that many people, because a watch is something you wear, it’s an accessory, it’s a fashion

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco item, it’s a, you know, all they kept saying, personal, intimate, all this stuff, but it really is, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a fashion item. Maybe they realize that there’s a whole lot of people who,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco any smartwatch out there today, all these all the Google Wear ones and the other ones, they’re so

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco ugly. And they’re so like, you know, kind of cheap relative to these fancy watches, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco maybe Apple has to offer watches in these high end metals that are at these high end prices,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just to get a certain group of people to even consider wearing and buying them. So like, if you know, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco their goal is, we want these people to be wearing an Apple Watch using it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with their Apple phone. And maybe the only way to get them to wear a watch is to offer

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a stainless steel one and to offer a gold one. And so there’s going to be certain people for whom that is the case where

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like they won’t consider a cheap you know plastic and aluminum electric electronic watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know that’ll be too geeky for them but if you make it out of this high-end stuff you know then you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco can reach a certain number of customers who otherwise would never consider wearing a computer watch on their wrist.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t know if that if it’s about reaching that audience because like I mean I I understand like wearing

⏹️ ▶️ ^John something is very very different than just holding it, but I don’t think That it looks

⏹️ ▶️ ^John less geeky enough But like when you dress it up when you doll it up and make the fancy wristbands and all that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stuff Which by the way those wrist things are probably gonna cost a bazillion dollars, too But if you dress it all up,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s still a watch. That’s basically a screen. It’s still a little computer on your wrist

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So I don’t know how much how much geekiness you are removing by

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like you know if there’s some audience out there that says I don’t want to wear anything I don’t want to wear something looks like I’m wearing a computer on my wrist it’s still

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gonna look like if you’re wearing a computer on your wrist no matter how nice the band it is no matter how you know what precious

⏹️ ▶️ ^John metals is made of and by the way I looked up on the Wikipedia page Veblen Good is a good whose demand

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is proportional to its price so it’s like as we raise the price suddenly the demand goes up because all

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s I’m not interested in an $8,000 watch because who cares but make that same watch $30,000 and suddenly I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John interested because you have a $30,000 Apple watch. So anyway I don’t know if Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going to be entering that realm and the obsolescence issue is definitely there. The angle that I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^John seen thrown around about that it’s like well that’s even more of a status symbol. It’s like I bought this $30,000 watch it’s gonna be a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John paperweight in two years because the new one’s gonna be out. Look how rich I am. It’s like the I am rich application.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah and I think I think the the obsolescence thing is is gonna prove to be a really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco big deal and a really big problem for Apple trying to sell these premium price watches because,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you know, even if you’re some really super rich guy in a place that really values

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco showing your wealth like that, of which there are many places, although I’m pretty sure that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the tech geek world in California is pretty much the opposite of that, which is interesting and worth talking about on its own. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco even if you’re in a place like that, like if you have a $30,000 watch, that’s a really cool thing. That’s you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know, that’s like wow, that’s that’s a nice watch. That’s like that’s gonna be a family heirloom. If

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you have a $10,000 gold iWatch that’s you know three years ago’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco model, that’s like carrying around an iPad 1.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} It’s not even gonna work anymore when

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that once the battery is dead you’ll have to replace the battery and I don’t know how long they’re gonna you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know how long you’re gonna be able to find the the exact correct weird little battery that fits inside there because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s gonna you know it’s not gonna be easily replaceable and you’re going to have to take the whole thing apart and find the weird bet. Like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s just not going to have longevity of the devices, which which may be fine. Like I talked about the Mac to effects last

⏹️ ▶️ ^John time. I think I tried to guess about the prices and someone either emails or tweeted today that actually I was low in my

⏹️ ▶️ ^John price. Like how much how much was the Mac to effects in today’s dollars? And some are going to say that it was like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John twenty two grand, not like sixteen grand. Right. And so that’s that’s the other thing where it’s like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple’s going to sell a watch for ten thousand dollars. outrageous like you can spec a $10,000 Mac Pro right now. It’s all about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what do you think is worth $10,000? Is the utility provided by the Mac Pro worth $10,000? Maybe if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John working if you work at Pixar, right, and that’s a tool that you need to make your movie that’s gonna make hundreds of millions of dollars,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can justify buying a $10,000 computer. It’s $10,000 close to the price of goods in the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think the margins are probably pretty good on that. But you know, Apple has to buy the GPUs from AMD and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s got to buy the CPUs from Intel and it’s manufactured nicely and they have to buy the RAM from somebody like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s in the ballpark. Maybe you know 100% margins or something. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not like, you know, well the Mac Pro goes $3,000 $5,000 and then goes $50,000 like there’s no 50 or $100,000 Mac Pro except for that like we was

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a million dollars We

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} had

⏹️ ▶️ ^John read one that Marco tried to bid on but thanks to collectors anywhere. So I got dramatically up

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, so I still think we have to watch to see to see what the what the top end price is going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to be. And this is one of those cases where I actually will be looking at sort of the I supply type of breakdown, not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so much from my supply, but from people who know things about jewelry and stuff to say what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s difficult because again, as we were putting it out as article, he was comparing it against Rolexes and stuff, but those aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John priced based on the goods and labor plus a percentage either. They’re priced based on how much they think market

⏹️ ▶️ ^John will bear which has almost no connection to the you know anything else in them it’s just like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the scale goes crazy where you just it’s the same exact watch with the same movement you do it in gold if you just take

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that other watch and its movement and then add in the price of the weight of the gold plus a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John little bit extra for like shaping it into that shape and then like triple it and that’s the price of the gold one for no

⏹️ ▶️ ^John reason just because well you know just because so I you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think this is mostly academic because as soon as you start entering into the realm of multi,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whether it’s multi-thousand dollar computers like the Mac Pro or multi-thousand dollar watches like the top end, I watch is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John so few people buy those like that’s not how Apple is going to make its money. It’s not like, oh, Apple’s getting greedy. Like they are not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John making their money by selling ten thousand dollar Mac Pros. They’re not going to make their money by sending selling ten thousand

⏹️ ▶️ ^John dollar I watches or God damn it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} Maybe I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John maybe this is it. Maybe like I’m entering the I touch phase of my life anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re they’re not going to make their money that way. when you see the big financials, they have to sell tons and tons of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the cheaper ones. But if Apple really wants to move into

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the realm of fashion, which I think is probably a good move at this point, as technology

⏹️ ▶️ ^John shrinks and as the price of compute drops to zero, that’s a better market

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to be in than trying to sell technology. It’s a typical Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John move to say, well, we should get the high end. Like, we want all the best customers in the market. And that includes

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the people who buy $10,000 Mac Pros. Like we want some of that market. We’re not just gonna say, oh, well, they’ll just have to buy a different

⏹️ ▶️ ^John computer. But you know, it’s like the PC. Do we want the people who buy $300 PCs? No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we want the whole top end of the market from like $900 up to 10,000. We want that whole market. And we know we’re not gonna sell a lot of $10,000 Macs, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John we’re gonna offer one. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think they know they’re not gonna sell a lot of $10,000 watches, but they’re gonna offer one. And I think that leads to the next

⏹️ ▶️ ^John question about these watches, these gold watches the bands and everything like that. How the hell do you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John buy one? We talked about this a little bit in the last show, but Scott McDulty had a good tweet today. He said, if I’m buying a $20,000

⏹️ ▶️ ^John watch, I don’t want to raise my hand. So some teenager with an iPad can check me out. He’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John referring to the experience of going to an Apple store and trying to. I wonder if you do self check out with $20,000 gold. Can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I just scan this, take a picture with my phone? I’m just walking out. Yeah. How are they going to sell this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, well, a couple of other people pointed out, like, are they even going to stock this in the store?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, like is it behind? Is it behind a big case with a key? No, I don’t think so. Like, is it under a jewelry counter or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John their separate section of the store where there’s like a jeweler and a velvet like the just the logistics

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of how do you let someone see this this watch with this band with this X? Is it all going to be through

⏹️ ▶️ ^John third party sellers? Like, I don’t understand how they’re going to sell this in the Apple store.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I mean, I’m guessing, first of all, I bet it’s I bet it’s going to be very rare to actually

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco find one of these in stock in an Apple store. Second of all, I would

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco go, also Gruber said this, I would say that there has to be some kind of store

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco redesign on the horizon. I’m guessing one of the reasons why Apple has hired

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people like Angela Arends, however you say her name, I’m sorry, one of the reasons why Apple has hired

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco people who are from luxury retail brands and luxury retail experience and fashion retail experience

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is because they’re most likely working on a major redesign to their stores to integrate

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco things like to integrate the watch first and then potentially future fashionable items

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or even just a redesign in general. I think their stores are.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco They’re OK, but they don’t really have like an upscale feeling anymore. They did when they first launched,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but now there’s just too many people. It’s kind of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John old. It’s plenty upscale is just yeah, it’s just too many damn people there like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and they’re not going to solve that problem. That’s that’s the issue is like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they could solve that problem by opening different kinds of stores like boutique stores or whatever but even even within their current

⏹️ ▶️ ^John product line like the beats headphones the iPhone 5c and Basically just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like the existence of all the cases for their existing phones There’s already that problem of when you go into a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John store you say Which phone do I want you can go from table to table and see all the different colors a lot of the time you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like Which case do I want and the Apple store people are really good about oh We’ll just take that case out of the box and put it on to see how

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you fit But like it’s a very informal process and once you get into and the beats headphones like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I know they come in all sorts Of colors and everything too It’s more like picking out clothes where you have to have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or I don’t know what the best equivalent is if you can mix and match Things and you want to see which combination you like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John do I like the the iPhone 5c in this color with this color case? Do I want this like if it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John more than just picking from one of five different colors that are available once you get into combinations

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bands, they have to come up with a way to make that an experience that people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that people want that even if they don’t buy it in the Apple Store, even if they buy it online from you know, the online store, they want to go to the store

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and see what does the you know, maybe they’ll have like dummy watches like what does this

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this band look like with this watch and the watch itself is not gold, but it’s just like maybe you just do it

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all with the aluminum one because they’re all compatible anyway, or maybe they have one that’s painted gold like it’s a fake one. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t know how they deal with that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m not sure that the bands are going to be sold separately. Do we know that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they have some separately because people are going to want multiple bands for the same watch?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m guessing one of like the cheap one, the sport one, which is probably what they mean when they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco say starts at 350. And it basically is like, you know, it’s aluminum. It doesn’t even have sapphire. It’s aluminum

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and glass is basically an iPhone construction. And it has these like, like neon rubber bands,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco basically. I’m guessing they’re going to use that as a differentiator so that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if you want the nice like one of the metal or leather bands, I bet you got to buy

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco up. I bet you I bet you got to get the thousand dollar stainless steel and and Sapphire model.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But but they can’t do that. They have to sell them separately as long as they’re physically compatible. And I think they are.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They have to sell them separately because the rich people are going to want to mix and match within their own watch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Right. So you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} to if you want true if you want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the fancy what they have to sell them like that. And but like but even regardless,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you there are many possible combinations. You have to provide a store environment

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where people can safely and without you getting robbed all the time, try

⏹️ ▶️ ^John out these combinations. And that’s like when someone, as Scott said, basically, you know, in a snarky way,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John when someone is going to drop twenty thousand dollars on a watch, they don’t want to wade through a sea of people

⏹️ ▶️ ^John angry about their, you know, their iCloud losing all their photos of their kids or whatever is

⏹️ ▶️ ^John going on. you know, in an Apple store to get someone to help them to see like they wanted

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to be a nice quiet environment and they want someone to to pay attention to them and serve their neighbors.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John They’re going to drop a huge amount of it. It’s just what they’re used to. So I don’t I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} don’t think you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John can sell a twenty thousand dollar watch in that kind of store unless especially if there are options

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because there’s no options like they decide before they go in. They they wade through the massive humanity to find someone to check

⏹️ ▶️ ^John them out. And maybe like Casey said, maybe they don’t even have them in the store. Maybe they mail them to you afterwards

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or whatever. That’s feasible. But as soon as that you have to choose and like try on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John different sizes and see what this watch looks like with this band or whatever, current Apple store is not equipped

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for that in any way.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Well, but is that entirely true? I think you’re, you’re mostly right. But what just occurred to me was

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the grand central store is suddenly looking like a much better layout than I initially

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey thought. And if you haven’t been to the grand central store, it’s like several different rooms that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey are connected, of course, but it’s not like they’re these big wide hallways, if

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you will, between the rooms. Like one of the rooms, I think it was where the beats were, was like upstairs.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Is that right, Marco? You’ve probably been

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} there.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You can have like, you can have like a departments you’re thinking

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} of, like, yeah, I want to go

⏹️ ▶️ ^John up to the jewelry department. That works in the Grand Central store, but we know what most Apple stores look like. It’s a big,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s a big rectangle

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in a mall. Sure. And that’s why I think you’re mostly right. But it just occurred to me that maybe the Grand Central store

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey almost becomes the flagship store rather than the Fifth Avenue one, because it’s got these like different sections and different rooms.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I think one of you said something about like personal shopping earlier. Maybe there’s you know, the velvet rope before

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the Apple Watch room in the Grand Central store. But I agree with you, john, I don’t know what we’re going to do about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey the regular Apple stores, which are easily as much about getting help as they are about buying

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a product.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That was speaking of redesign Apple stores. That was one of the theories behind what’s in that big giant white box other than a hands-on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John area, which guess what it turned out to be hands-on area. Although if we take that as a preview, I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John don’t think we can like it had all the why watches and those little sticks like rotating.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s the store environment. There just looks like a press hands-on area. But yeah, we’re all expecting some kind of redesign

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the Apple store is it’s do that. You know, everyone has copied their current design, which means it’s time for Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to change

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} the design

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of the stores. Well, they’ve had this design for like 10 years at least. Right? When are they when they

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco launch their first stores like 2003 2004 something like that?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And we’re talking about design like people might think we’re thinking like are they gonna do dark colored wood

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on the tables or a different floor? But no, we’re talking about is like, you know design is how it works Like what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where do you go in the store to to try out the the iPhones? They’re like now they just have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everything on tables because you can just walk up to it Try it out get a feel for it Maybe get a little bit of help But if it’s going to be I need to see

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this watch with this band with this set of beats headphones but this is whatever you need someone behind a counter to help

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you and Like it just it’s a totally different environment. It’s not like I don’t think you can do

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that freeform I don’t think you can have people sort of self Just wander around the store entertaining themselves

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And then if they need help they’ll come and get you or they’ll ask you if you’re finding everything or whatever You can’t have someone rummaging through

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like a bin of gold watches right and trying the different bands and everything like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I Just don’t know how it’s gonna work. I think And maybe the Apple edition watches won’t even be available

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in regular Apple stores. You have to go to the fancy Apple stores and no one will go to the fancy Apple stores except for rich people because they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John only sell, you know, I wish this is not actually happened, but it wouldn’t be great if they only sold like Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m sorry, the only Mac we have is the Mac Pro. I know nobody needs this and I know you wouldn’t even want

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this is this is the problem I see like with with getting into a luxury store and high end watches

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that cost $10,000 a gold one. Like this isn’t Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like this like this doesn’t fit the culture of the company, the people, the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco stores, the customers like it just doesn’t fit.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But it does though like it fits because like they’re going after the watch market from 300

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bucks and up and just like they went to the for the PC market from you know $900

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and up and it just so happens the end up in both cases ends in five figures.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco What I said earlier about like some people might only wear a solid gold or whatever. That’s one thing. I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that if we would have predicted how Apple would approach this, the most Apple-like way to approach this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would be to make one model that was so good on its merits that people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would forget about wearing solid gold watches and be willing to wear this one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because it’s so good, even though it’s not made of solid gold. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco not what Apple is doing here. And I think it’s It’s worth questioning why, and I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco seen a few people that seem a little bit alarmed, possibly why Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco going this way. And I think there is cause for concern, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what I said earlier, where if they think they can only get people to wear a watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco if it’s made of these premium materials and costs a lot of money, like certain people, if that’s the case, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and if that’s why they’re doing it, that’s interesting. But if people are doing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it, if Apple’s doing it because they just want to be in the business of selling $10,000 watches,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that’s kind of weird from Apple. Like if you think about, and granted I know the world is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco way bigger than us, I’m very much aware of this and I know that we do not represent the world

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at large, but can you imagine anybody we know, let’s say we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco go out, let’s say we’re at a conference or something, you know, a geek conference, or even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just at work, you’re at work somewhere, you know, programmers that work with other programmers and people in offices

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco like do you think when this comes out do you think if

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you’re at a bar at WWDC and if you look around will anybody

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who in the entire conference will any attendee of that conference be wearing a gold Apple watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yeah anybody who had a big exit from their startup will

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco will they I don’t think so I think the startup people are still wearing jeans and t-shirts I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco see that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John happening I I know, but they won’t have a gold one, because gold is tacky, but they’ll have the stainless one for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, maybe, but still, see this is the problem. In this business,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and in this culture, and in much of Apple’s culture, what is in fashion and what is socially acceptable

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is to be relatively understated for the most part, and to not be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco super ostentatious with big gold jewelry and stuff. That’s not cool.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I would feel like an a**hole wearing a gold Apple Watch. Oh, you’d get

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco over it. I just can’t imagine anybody we know, like any of our friends,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco being willing to wear a gold Apple Watch in public, because you’d be surrounded by a whole bunch of people

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who would all recognize it and know that you paid 10 grand for that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, well, hold on. I could not possibly disagree more with like every

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey freaking thing you just said. That’s fine. All right, so let’s start with, it would be remiss of me

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not to point out that you’re saying a gold watch is ridiculous and silly and a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey waste of money, yet your car was, to be frank, not cheap. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I would argue that if you really think about the purpose of your car, especially in America,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it makes no damn sense. You can’t go more than 70 anywhere. Sure, you can get to 70 very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey quickly, but there’s no purpose in it. And really, as much as I love your car,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s a silly waste of money for America.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} I completely agree.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey So let’s start there. The other thing is, I think you’re taking too myopic a view of what you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey expect of Apple and our friends, because our friends, I agree,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey none of us would wear solid gold watches. It would be silly, it would be ridiculous, and it would be very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey tasteless. But you were saying earlier that you thought that maybe the bands

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey would kind of be, you get a band with the watch and that’s that, especially with a cheap one. And I’m looking at

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a picture of the Apple Watch Sport on Apple’s website, and it’s very clear that the little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey disengage button, for lack of a better word, to switch out the bands is there. And there’s this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like peachy, pinky, salmon-y colored band on this particular picture, and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey zoomed way into the bottom of the watch, and those buttons are there so you can remove the bands. And all I keep thinking

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey about is, Apple seems to be going more and more towards

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey making everything a little more personal. You see evidence of this in the fact that there’s now

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not just one iPhone that is black and you will like it. There’s not only three colors,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey but there’s two sizes. And that’s eliminating the 5S and the 5C.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey There’s a commercial that came out not long ago where these beautiful Macs were

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey tainted or enhanced, depending on how you look at it, with all of these stickers. And I think when

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it comes to the watch, they would be out of their damn minds not to offer

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a hundred different bands because you can personalize it, make it match your

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey outfit if you’re into that, or you can make it the opposite of your outfit if you wanna call attention to it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in the same way that sometimes people might sport more than one case. I happen to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey use a case for my phone. On my 5S, I have the Apple leather case, but even I have an

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey additional case, which is a battery case, kind of like a Mophie, but an off-brand for when

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I’m out at like a conference or something like that. So I am like the least fashion conscious person in the entire world,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and yet I have more than one case for my iPhone. Although I guess to be fair, it’s more about utility than it is fashion.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey But I guess what I’m saying is, all of our views, and I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey including myself in this, are centered around, our friends would never be into

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a $30,000 solid gold watch. But celebrities could be, Wall Street could be,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey there’s so many people that could be reached by this. And just because we don’t think it makes

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey sense and it doesn’t really add up in our heads, doesn’t mean that it won’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey add up for anyone else in the world. And that’s also a good point, that we’re taking a very myopic American view

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of this, and from what I’ve gathered from like Ben Thompson and others, that Asia takes a very

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey different view of this. And a lot of Asia, or so it appears, is about expressing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey your wealth as extravagantly as you possibly can.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Oh yeah, and that’s what I’m saying. Like, I don’t mean to say that this is everybody, but that this is such

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a, it’s such a big part of Apple culture that this seems to be working

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco against and conflicting with.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But the Apple culture previously had been based on technology and they’re getting into fashion with this. And when you get into fashion,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everything that comes with it is, you know, like functionally all the watches,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like the more expensive ones, it’s not like they get like more better battery life or anything like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that. Like they’re functionally the same. And so in that respect, everyone, it’s like the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Ok, if you can afford the lowest price. The lowest price of Retina MacBook Pro, that is reasonable.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the company really does have the best experience with the new iMac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John So, if you can afford the cheapest watch, Apple Watch, you will have the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John experience as someone who bought the more expensive one. So, it’s not like they’re saying we are no longer

⏹️ ▶️ ^John egalitarian, we don’t believe that our technology should be accessible to everybody. It’s like I said before,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they want the watch market from a couple hundred bucks and up, and it just so happens the and up goes up really

⏹️ ▶️ ^John high. And the fashion market, the and up goes really high without an additional

⏹️ ▶️ ^John utility. At least in the Mac Pro, you can argue that there’s some utility that you’re not tapping into in the fashion market, there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is no extra utility for a Gucci bag or some expensive pair of shoes. Like they, in fact, there’s often less utility

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because that’s the way fashion works, right? If Apple wants to be in the fashion market,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and I think this again, I think this is a good plan because long term as you know, as the price of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John compute goes down and down, that’s what you’re selling is a fashion device. You

⏹️ ▶️ ^John know, you’re selling a yes, a solution to make your life better, but especially for things that you wear attached to your body, the fashion

⏹️ ▶️ ^John market is just different. Apple entering into that market, it’s not being on Apple-like if Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John thinks that they want to be also to sell fashion items. Because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John once Apple says we want to be in the fashion business, then them behaving as

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everyone else in the fashion industry does is still Apple-like because Apple is entering into that market. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think it’s out of character. I think it’s just it would be wrong for Apple to try to sell fashion devices

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like they are Macs or even iPhones, right? Because I mean, iPhones are kind of, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you wear an iPhone, no, but you do keep it in your pocket. It’s more personal than the Mac. It’s like a continuum. But once you’re strapping

⏹️ ▶️ ^John things onto you, it gets or even beats headphones. Once you’re putting them on your head, that becomes very,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John very different. And so I think they have to change their strategy of how they sell into that market. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^John again, I don’t think like we’re getting all upset about the high end watches and everything. They’re mostly going to sell the cheap ones like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s all Apple cares about for their bottom line. that’s you know, but if you’re going to be in that market

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and not sell the high end ones, maybe it like it makes you lesser like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the respected fashion brands are not always the ones that only sell super expensive stuff. I bet

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even Rolex has affordable models or reasonable models for watches. Watches are weird because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the utility of them is basically zero at this point. So it’s entirely about, you know, fashion and all that other stuff, except

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for maybe I guess like sport watches for running and being waterproof and stuff like that, but Apple’s not in that market

⏹️ ▶️ ^John either. I think if we see them enter another fashion category that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John has more of a utility value, I don’t know, Apple shoes. I can’t I don’t think Nike would like that very much.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We’ll see how they behave in that respect. I guess beats is another thing when we’ll see how do they deal with the beats

⏹️ ▶️ ^John headphones because the utility is, you know, it’s kind of there on

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} those things,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but but they’re They’re popular because they’re fashion accessories. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t think this is a sign of doom and gloom. In fact, I think Apple is out ahead of the other technology

⏹️ ▶️ ^John companies in realizing that long term. I mean, they’ve been ahead out for years.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Selling things based on the amount of RAM and the CPU speed was no good. So Apple stopped doing that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John way before everybody else. And now they’re, I think, ahead of the other people in saying we’re going to sell goods where

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the technology practically isn’t even a factor in the price. exact same CPU,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the exact same screen, the exact same storage and a price range from hundreds to tens of thousands.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John That and the other technology companies you’d be like, what the hell is Apple doing? But other fashion companies like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John oh, we do that. We sell leather shoes for a price range from a couple hundred bucks to a thousand bucks. And it’s all made of the same

⏹️ ▶️ ^John leather.

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⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey All right, so we’re not quite done with the Apple Watch. We’re never

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco going to be done with the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Apple Watch. No, we’re not. So we

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco got some… we’re probably not even gonna get to iOS 8 at all. No,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I don’t think we will. And I’m not kidding. This is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco still a

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey follow-up, just to be clear. Yes, we learned a little more about the offline

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey capacity, or not capacity, features of the Apple Watch. And

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey apparently an Apple rep said that the watch’s offline abilities include

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Apple Pay, music via Bluetooth, and via storage within the watch itself,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey activity tracking, and some apps, which makes it more useful than I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey most of us expected, actually.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The Apple Pay one is, I mentioned this in the last show, is mysterious because there’s no Touch ID on the thing. So you’re going to be able to Apple

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Pay with it, but you won’t have to use, Touch ID won’t be involved at all. Which gets back to the earlier point about

⏹️ ▶️ ^John getting the card present rate if you just use NFC. So yeah, Touch ID

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not being a factor there reinforces that. Music, Bluetooth, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fine. Some apps? That gets confusing to me, because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what wouldn’t, you know, I guess, this is about what we were discussing last time, like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is it a bunch of binaries that you ship over to the watch that you run on the watch using the watch’s CPU? Is it like CarPlay,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John where the phone is projecting a UI into someplace else? I seriously doubt that. But then why would it only be some apps? Why

⏹️ ▶️ ^John couldn’t you run all the apps? Or are there some applications that are going to communicate over ad hoc Wi-Fi to your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phone? I don’t know. I don’t even know if Apple knows the answers to all these questions

⏹️ ▶️ ^John yet. But yeah, the offline capabilities of the watch, I would imagine that anything you see

⏹️ ▶️ ^John people doing in an Apple ad, don’t assume they always have their phone in their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John pocket when they do that. Because they’re out for a run or whatever, doing like checking, I guess it can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John count your steps. Like it can’t do GPS, but it can do something offline. I don’t know. This is, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John limited by physics here, but I think their

⏹️ ▶️ ^John goal, you know, five, 10 years from now is to make the Apple Watch be able to do everything

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that an iPhone can do. Obviously, that’s a long ways off, but that’s where they’re headed. The fact that it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John companion device now just always reminds me of how iOS devices, before they were iOS devices,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John were companion devices to your Mac and now aren’t anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey A real-time follow-up from a friend of the show, Ben Thompson, he said, if the watch loses contact with your

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey skin, which you would know by way of the sensors on the bottom of the watch, you have to re-enter the PIN

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey code. I’m not sure what PIN code that is. I’m assuming there’s either the shared pin code with your phone or maybe a watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey specific pin code, but nevertheless, you have to identify yourself as yourself

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey if it loses contact with your skin.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco See, I kind of disagree with John, your assumption that like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the watch will become basically the new digital hub.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, no, I’m not saying the new digital hub, I’m saying like the fact that it’s tethered to the iPhone now is purely a limitation

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of technology and that eventually if it had the storage capacity, battery power

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and everything else like it could be you know if it could have its own GPS its own Wi-Fi its own cell radio

⏹️ ▶️ ^John everything if you could take all the technology and the iPhone and put it there they totally would they just can’t at this point

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m not you know so that I’m sure this is one of your like one an infinite timescale arguments

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} but infinite but like you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can imagine it like it’s that’s not outside the realm of possibility like if you look at you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John could do it with a big ugly watch right now right

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I see this I mean I’ve said so many times before like it is unwise to bet against

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or compete with the smartphone the smartphone almost always wins the smartphone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is amazing and awesome and Extremely powerful and disruptive to everything and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it is unwise to bet against the smartphone The watch as a smartphone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco accessory makes a lot of sense as its own device or as an

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco eventual replacement to the smartphone I I see that I have a hard time with that because

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it’s not gonna replace it I’m just saying it will be Independent of like you’ll be able to do more you won’t need to always carry your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John phone around when you want to use your watch To do something the watch can do obviously there’s only so many things you could do on a screen It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the size of a postage stamp right the screen is not going to be the new 5.5 inch iWatch, right? It’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John always going to be a small little thing But the thing is there are things you can’t do on the Apple watch now I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John think I said I watch like nine times sorry if there’s things you can’t do on the Apple watch now that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you can’t do not because it would be a bad idea to do them on a watch but simply because it needs to have the iPhone next to it for this thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh you don’t have any like connection to the internet for example. Well the iWatch doesn’t have one so you want to do anything

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that has anything to do with the internet like just receive a text message. If you’re out for a run look up at your watch text message

⏹️ ▶️ ^John says I’ll try to be home in five minutes because you have to pick up the kids or whatever you can’t see that unless you also have your

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iPhone with you. That’s a technical limitation that if Apple could get rid right now they would and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you’re maybe you know five eight years out from them being able to do that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco okay yeah that’s I’ll give you that that is fair and you know and you know I realized Casey I mean really

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the the Apple watch seems like it seems like fast text is the killer app for this thing like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I assume you’re not gonna wait as long as you have with your iOS 7 update to get your iWatch sorry

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco your Apple watch see I did it now you finally

⏹️ ▶️ ^John caught me he’ll have to because that we’re assuming that’s the only way you’re gonna be able to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John distribute Apple Watch apps is embedded inside.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} And I

⏹️ ▶️ ^John always have to update Fast Text merely as a Trojan horse. It’s a vehicle to distribute

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the WatchKids stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yes, yes, yes. It will happen eventually. Actually, I just told someone

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on Twitter, I don’t remember who it was, that at this point I’m thinking in my copious spare time as we’re planning for

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a child and then we’ll soon have said child, maybe I’ll just write the darn thing over in Swift.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, John} was thinking.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, jeez, no, Casey. we just want you to release it. You just set it back another year.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You just need to fix one auto layout bug.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I know. Actually, there’s also an animation bug, which I realized, but it’s minor.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Anyways, I will get to it one day, maybe as I’m up feeding Sprout at two in the morning

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey and then I’m unable to go back to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sleep. Yeah, you’ll be totally in the mood to do iOS development at that point.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You’ll have like, you know, no sleep for three days straight and like, you know what, I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what would be a good use my time right now is rewriting my app in a new language.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Screaming babies are really conducive to that kind of concentration and flow you need to get into to do good programming.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Well, look at it this way. The bar is so low that even if it’s rewritten kind of in a crummy way, it won’t look that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey different. Oh, well. So going back to the watch as I try to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey steer away from being embarrassed and miserable, one thing that was pointed out to us

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in we have in the show notes by Matias, but several people had said this,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that the Apple watch would actually be a really great way to send text

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey messages or really picture messages in languages like Chinese, where

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s single characters or images, forgive me, I don’t know the terminology

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey can represent kind of complex thoughts. And so this person said most simple messages can be transmitted

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in four or so characters. And depending on how this is all implemented,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that could be easier than getting a phone out, unlocking it, and either tapping away

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey or doing that crazy thing that I know you can do in Japanese where you draw simplified versions of the characters and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it figures out what you need. And that’s a really clever point that I certainly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey didn’t think about because I’m used to using a Germanic language or whatever where we need a whole bunch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of letters to make one word, let alone many words to make one thought.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, one of you last week brought up the whole idea of bringing back graffiti, which is the simplified writing technique to draw,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, regular English, you know, alphabet

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Roman.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yes, that’s the one I was looking for. Without typing all the strokes. So you know, an A is just an upside

⏹️ ▶️ ^John down V. You don’t have to draw the cross stroke. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco every letter is one

⏹️ ▶️ ^John stroke. Right. And that would obviously still be super painful for us to do. We did that already

⏹️ ▶️ ^John with the palm things. But with languages like Chinese, that have like pictogram type

⏹️ ▶️ ^John characters. They have to do that now a lot of the time because if you have like thousands and thousands of characters

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to choose from no keyboard can present them to you in a reasonable way anyways you have to go to like

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the root character then it breaks up sub menus and so on and so forth and it would actually be more efficient to be able to draw little scribbles

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to do the stuff like that. Now I’m not sure how fun it would be to draw those scribbles with your finger on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a watch size screen but someone will try it and if it works I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sure it will become very popular. I think Casey’s fast text idea or Apple’s own idea of like you receive

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a text message from somebody who has some sort of keyboard whether it’s an iPhone or a computer or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John and that the watch tries to interpret what was said to give you like three options to reply with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that type of I just want to push a button to confirm or cancel or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ ^John or even just recording an audio message almost any other option is preferable to scratching anything out on that screen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in that phone because you know the audio ones that you know even even

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a little animated emoji or something like a yes no answer I just I would not want to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John draw little pictures on this if you’re on the go like once you start drawing little pictures you’re gonna have to stop walking probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t think you can draw anything sensible while you’re walking or if you’re if you are doing you’re gonna walk into a lamppost or something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but while you’re walking you can hold the thing up to your mouth and send a little audio thing go yeah I’ll be there in a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John second, bloop, and then it goes out, that is much more feasible. So like I said last week,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Apple demonstrated what it thought were a whole bunch of different ways that you could communicate from

⏹️ ▶️ ^John this tiny little screen without having to type anything. And I think they’re just hoping that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John one or two of those stick or work out or end up not being terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Yeah, I hear you. I don’t know. I’m curious to see how it all works. And other things that people pointed out to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey us, and we saw this a lot, was there was no apparent

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey battery indicator ever shown on the watch at any point that I’m aware of.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And that could mean any number of things. What I wonder

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is, will it be that since the watch to some degree

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey is largely about surfacing notifications, would it perhaps be that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey you would just get a notification when your battery is low? not unlike the iPhone, but perhaps a little

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey less annoying. And it would just say, hey, I’m kind of running low on juice. You might want to plug me in soon.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Or alternatively, if you have a Bluetooth headset that will report battery status

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey over Bluetooth. Oh, no, that would be the worst. Well, I’m just saying that, you know, you could have the same kind

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of battery indicator for the Bluetooth headset on the status bar on the iPhone that. But instead of being for a Bluetooth

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey headset, of course, it’s for the watch.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, your watch will report to you that all five devices that are within its little Bluetooth cloud are all

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco low on battery power.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, it’s just like Marco with not putting the indicator badges on Instapaper and stuff like that. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco hey, did you see the Tichy’s review of the new Instapaper? Yeah, he mentioned he basically mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that about like that’s what brought him back to Instapaper after trying other ones was he liked.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco He overall liked it better. And one of the reasons he liked it was the lack of those badges.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, that is a that is a stress relief thing. Not having the badges, not even having the option

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to add them. I know a lot of people who obsessively look at the battery on their phone and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John in some ways like The phone is important enough that I think you have to show the battery so people can

⏹️ ▶️ ^John manage it But the watch is an ancillary device like what what are you gonna do about it a phone?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John It’s like you can plug it into a charger when you’re sitting at a desk or whatever the watch To charge it you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to take it off. There is no like you have to take it off So it’s like why bother even telling

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you there’s nothing you can do to manage the battery on this thing Don’t worry about it. Don’t look at it. Obviously when the battery gets low

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m sure something will appear on the screen to say hey, you’re almost out of juice It’s not like the thing’s just gonna turn off one, you know

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And you’re gonna turn up to look at it and it’ll be black and be like, oh I guess I ran out of battery like there will be something towards the end

⏹️ ▶️ ^John But the screen is super small like there’s no status bar Do they have to show like what on

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iOS devices on the status bar? We have a clock Well, I think the watch has that covered sort of like they’re not it’s not gonna be a status

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bar on these apps showing you battery power Wi-Fi signal strength, you know Bluetooth on or off

⏹️ ▶️ ^John off, rotation lock on or off, do not disturb on, like all that information, there’s just not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John enough room in that watch to show. They just want that out of your face, they don’t want you staring at it, they don’t want you obsessing over what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the watch is doing in any particular moment. So I think the combination of all those factors means don’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to see a bunch of status stuff having to do with how the watch is doing, because that’s not,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that’s not, you know, I don’t think even regular traditional watches have ever had battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gated, like you’re not supposed to monitor your watch to see how it’s doing and I I’m assuming they’re thinking

⏹️ ▶️ ^John since it’s so non-critical if the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco battery dies like well regular watches didn’t need battery indicators because they lasted months or years

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or forever and if the battery died it would be very obvious the watch would stop moving or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John working it’ll be obvious in this too the screen won’t turn on anymore that means that means

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the battery but like I’m sure there’ll be some kind of little buzz or notification or whatever thing when the battery is going down and we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have a little warning or something but you don’t need to be monitoring it all that you don’t need to be looking at and going, Oh, I’m not going to check the time

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that often for the next, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John what kind of control do you even have? It’s not like you’re choosing to. I mean, I guess maybe you will go into and not launch apps or something,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but it’s not like a phone where you can modify your behavior like, Oh, I’m not going to watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that YouTube video now because I’m running low on battery.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco No, I’m guessing it’s very simple. I’m guessing like it doesn’t even tell you anything until the battery is low

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and then it tells you that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I think you’re right. However, I take a little bit of issue with saying you don’t need to manage the watch’s status?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Because what if you really want to go for a run after work, but you’ve been using the watch

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey a lot, and now you’re nervous as to whether or not it will last the duration of your run? If you’re like

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey me, your runs last like 15 minutes, so it’s no big deal, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know what I’m driving at? But what do you, like, using your watch a lot? I always, I see the watch as something

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that, like, things will come in on the watch. Like, you’re not gonna, what are you doing on the watch? Unless it’s playing games, which I don’t know how that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is even gonna work out. Like, are you initiating activities from the watch that you’re choosing not to initiate them

⏹️ ▶️ ^John from that anymore? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey know. Absolutely. There were like 60 little bubbles on the watch home screen during the demo. There’s gotta be

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey that many bubbles for a reason. And also I should point out that my mechanical,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey traditional citizen watch actually does have a low battery indicator. And what

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it is is because it’s one of the eco drive watches, which I think Gruber might’ve mentioned in his

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey watch review. If, if you don’t get it within light in over the course

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey of like two or three months or something absurd like that, when you look at the watch, instead of ticking every single

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey second, it’ll tick in like two or three second increments, so it’ll go from 10 seconds to 12 seconds

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to 14, et cetera. And that’s the indicator to you that that thing’s running out of juice.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey And I don’t know what happens if it completely runs out of gas, so to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey speak. I, it may be that you have to take it in for service, or it may be as simple you just got to put some light

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on it. But even my traditional mechanical watch actually has a battery indicator to some degree.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Like that’s what we’re talking about. A thing that basically says low battery. It’s not like a little bar graph like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m at 73%. Oh, now I’m down to 62% like that type of micromanagement of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John battery. It’s just, yeah, we all hope that will go away eventually in

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know, phones as well. But you know, we’re not holding our breath for that. Like the watch, their goal, and we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ ^John see how well they achieve this is put it on the morning, take it off at night for a reasonable day worth of average

⏹️ ▶️ ^John usage you should be fine. If they don’t meet that goal the lack of anything except for a low battery

⏹️ ▶️ ^John indicator maybe it’ll put a damper on things like I’m sure there’ll be some screen that you can go to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as Casey pointed out and all those little bubbles on the screen one of them is gonna be settings and it’s gonna tell you about your battery usage and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John you know do all the which applications are usually a lot of battery and bubble like I’m sure they’ll bring over

⏹️ ▶️ ^John all that iOS 8 style stuff it buried in some screen somewhere but

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I think the idea of obsessively monitoring it, especially to the degree that you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^John an always visible user interface element like the status bar on such a tiny screen, it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John not going to be ported to the watch. And it kind of in the same way that a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^John complexities and traditions of desktop computers did not make it to iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John now going from iOS to the watch is yet another opportunity to shed some things that you know you’re always supposed

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to have. And a battery indicator is one of those things. Oh you always have access to the file system. Well on iOS you don’t. deal with it. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, you always see a battery indicator. Well, on the watch, you don’t deal with it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco All right. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week. Squarespace, Igloo

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and Linda dot com. And we will see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them at

⏹️ ▶️ ^John C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So that’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T Marco

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Syracuse, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey accidental, they didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John course, the other option is they just didn’t have time to mock up where the battery indicator is going to go in the release version. We’ll have one up in the corner.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Because as we know from the yet another developer release of Yosemite, sometimes Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^John just not entirely done with the graphics for stuff and they have to change it in every freaking place.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I took all my, did I tell you I did? I did all my screenshots. I thought it was done with screenshots except for if any few

⏹️ ▶️ ^John little things change and then they do no build and I’m like, oh, it looks the same. I should be fine and I start

⏹️ ▶️ ^John digging and it’s not. So how is the review? I’m starting

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to now read what I wrote. Oh, that’s good. Yes. It doesn’t mean I’m done. There are still things

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that I skipped over and things that I couldn’t get to work and things that they changed and, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John new builds. But I went back to the beginning and said, let me see if I what I wrote and I’m going back through it now. So

⏹️ ▶️ ^John still have still do not have anything publishable. And there are still things that I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John get to work, right?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Um, something that should be pointed out is if you want to support us

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey in ways that don’t involve our sponsors, which the number one best way to support us is to,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey to try out our sponsors, to check, check them out and see what they have to do. But if you want to support

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey us and by us, I mean, John, when the review comes out, it will presumably be available as an ebook,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Go ahead and buy that ebook.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco While you’re there, buy fast text.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Oh, God, don’t, because I’m going to just feel even more guilty about the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey it’s not updated.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I would love to see a fast text sales spike come out of nowhere.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey That would be kind of funny. But no,

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Casey, Marco} I’m on listeners.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You can

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} do it. Everybody

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} go out and buy fast text this week.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John We didn’t even speaking of things that might be on your iOS device that you never use and want to get rid of. We didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John even talk about the YouTube thing. Oh, thanks. Well, I say like you buy the ebook as a form of support. You don’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John have to ever read it. You can buy and just delete it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Anyway, we didn’t talk about the YouTube thing. I

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} know Mark didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^John post about that, and I just agree with everything he said, but it would have been worth talking about. Probably

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey what we just did. Done.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah. Oh, except for now, one thing you didn’t post about is you’re supposed to do. Oh, I tried

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to give it a fair shot, but I stopped after the first song and a half. That’s not a fair shot. You have to actually listen

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco album. I listened to the rest of it before the live stream tonight.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John All right. Well, that’s what I’m saying. Like you said, I think, did you say that you

⏹️ ▶️ ^John gave it a fair shot or you tried to give it a fair shot? I don’t remember your

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco action. I said something like I wanted to give it a fair shot and I stopped after one and a half songs. Oh, yeah. So you wanted to,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco but you did not. Well, hold on, though. I mean, you know, I listen to albums. If an album

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is like unbearably boring and doesn’t grab me. Like fish? After the first song and a half. So after 40

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco minutes of fish? Is it really going to get better? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, no, like I said, your favorite song in the entire world could have been the last song on that album. you would never know if you stopped. You got to listen to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it at least once. I mean, some people would say you had to listen to it more than once to give it a fair shot. But I’m just saying like limb

⏹️ ▶️ ^John bottom line, each song you must listen to one time to know that you hate all of them, which may be the case. Fine. But you can’t say,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John well, I hate it the first two. So I’m sure I hate the last six. I didn’t say that. I know, but you said you get you wanted to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John give it a fair shot, but I don’t think you did. I think you have to listen to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it. Well, and so I did before the show and the rest of the album sounds very similar to the first song

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and a half. And I still don’t like.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} Yeah, it’s usually

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the case, but like you just have to you have to listen to it because you never know. There are many

⏹️ ▶️ ^John albums that I’ve listened to that I dislike all the tracks, except for like one or one or

⏹️ ▶️ ^John two. And you’ll never know that if those one or two are like mixed in the middle of the thing, if you stop in the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco beginning. Well, and I would say also that, you know, to me, like again, I listen to full albums

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco only. I don’t listen to singles. I listen to full albums. I listen to them in order. So it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is important like the first song on an album matters and what most albums are made

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Not to put like the biggest hit first, but but some kind of song first to like open it up

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco You know get the rhythm going you know establish the tone for the rest of the album It’s that’s old world

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco thinking though.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well you too. How old is you too? I know what you’re talking about But like I think even you two has been gotten

⏹️ ▶️ ^John really bad at that for their last several albums of like building an album like the way the way everybody

⏹️ ▶️ ^John used to when they built an album now it’s like I don’t think people care anymore

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they don’t care about play order they don’t care about building anything they just want 10 tracks and every single one of them needs to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John be a top 10 hit like I don’t know you I don’t listen to enough music to know who I think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Radiohead is still building albums that way but I don’t listen to enough different bands to know if that is a thing that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that some bands still do like think of it as a whole and arrange it as a whole and compose it as a

⏹️ ▶️ ^John whole rather than just taking a collection of tracks and maybe like reordering them once you’ve got the track set together.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I think there is still some thought put into it. It’s questionable whether there’s enough people in the world

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco who listen the way I do to that it’s worth it but there is definitely

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco thought put in most of the time to that sort of thing.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Even in Phish albums? I don’t even know Phish. Does Phish have albums? They just start playing?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco They do but they’re pretty unimportant to actual fish fans, actual fish fans usually just listen to the live shows.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Did you like the U2 album, John? Not

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco really. Yeah, you actually like U2.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I do. But the last few albums, they’ve gone in a musical direction that is not

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as interesting to me. And I, since I’m a big U2 fan, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^John predisposed to like a lot of what they do. I’m giving this album a longer shot than Marco to

⏹️ ▶️ ^John see if it grows on me or not, because it’s not like it’s not like outside the realm of possibility

⏹️ ▶️ ^John that some of my, a lot of the, you know, for the past several albums, it’s been at least one or two songs that have grown

⏹️ ▶️ ^John on me, even though for the past several albums, my initial listen to most of them has been like, meh.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I mean, they’re just, they, they did a, they kind of like,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a band this old has like, Backlash and then Backlash Backlash and then Backlash Backlash, but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ ^John like nine levels deep in Backlash in terms of what fans think of them and what they think of their own sound.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John And like, they’ve circled back around so many times they’re just into this. They’ve spiraled back into what they think

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of as the U2 sound, but it’s not really the U2 sound anymore. And it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a little bit boring to me, musically speaking. So I’m not that into it, but we agree

⏹️ ▶️ ^John there are some glimmers of interest in in some of the production on the album,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John but there’s a lot of sameness.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I completely agree on the last part of that sentence.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, if you’re not a U2 fan, like maybe like it’s It’s kind of if you don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John if you’re not hearing glimpses of the old you too, if you don’t know the old you too, or didn’t like the old you too, having glimpses

⏹️ ▶️ ^John of them show through is meaningless. And so all you’re left with is like what you’ve got there. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ ^John someday Apple will be in decline and we’ll see some glimmer of the old Apple and you’ll understand what I mean. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all right. So you want to do titles? I think John won it already.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Entering the I touch phase of my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco life. Yeah, that’s that’s it. I mean, how can we how can we not pick that?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey I completely agree.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John You’re gonna hit all right. Let’s go through the capitalization now now go through the

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} capitalization in my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey defense I was the one who did who did that and as I was typing it I knew that what I typed was wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I don’t know I can’t leave it the chance anymore so Marco go ahead How are you going to capitalize this?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco capital entering phase and Hmm.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} I’m stuck. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco stuck

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey on the my the my gets a capital.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yes. It does yes I think so I mean we need to just have a standard and you can use title case that

⏹️ ▶️ ^John column if you want

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all right So the only lowercase words are the and of in this title besides the I touch which is camel case But you

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco know see this looks stupid. This is why I just I I capitalize everything because it’s just it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco just Consistent it like it never it never looks this weird.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John No, it totally like it totally looks weird when you capitalize. Oh, are you crazy?

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and we didn’t talk about anything that came out today.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Nope. Yeah, the Tim Cook privacy thing Which everyone was posting the chat room a million times.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Well, that just came out like during the show I haven’t had time to read it

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} yet

⏹️ ▶️ ^John slightly before but yeah I read it we didn’t talk about the Charlie Rose interview Which I made sure I watched all of before the show

⏹️ ▶️ ^John because I might talk about it, but we didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah I we’re gonna have months of stuff to talk about that happened this week

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh someone put the Charlie Rose thing in the notes So we don’t so we remember it Charlie Rose in the privacy thing just throw them in there

⏹️ ▶️ ^John for topics for next week

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, so I guess that’s it. I could talk about the iPad thing, but for almost two hours already. I’m exhausted Let’s let’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco go to bed.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John What I’ve had thing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I I accidentally released an iPad app today.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh, that iPad app thing, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There’s not much to say. I accidentally released an iPad app. It doesn’t look that bad, but it looks

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco pretty bad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John The storyboard thing, are you essentially like wiring up a UI with constraints

⏹️ ▶️ ^John as a storyboard so that the interface elements in the default, like what

⏹️ ▶️ ^John would be equivalent to the default ping, like is it all basically just a fake facade, but it’s a facade that’s resizable?

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Is that how the storyboards work?

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, so I don’t actually use storyboards anywhere else in the app. But what you can do is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you can set a storyboard or a ZIP file

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco instead of your launch image. You can set it as your launch image on iOS 8 and it’s fairly

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco undocumented and pretty poorly understood and pretty poorly supported. The simulator doesn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco support it yet. There’s this post by Ole Bergman.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I’m sorry I forgot exactly his name but but we’ll include in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco In theory, it’s great because so the way, when iOS, in case listeners don’t know, iOS

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco apps always had these files called default.png, they were called the launch images, and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco when you first launch the app, if it wasn’t running in the background, when you first launch the app, it shows

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco this image first, then it takes like a second or two for the app to actually load in the background,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco and then the app pops in in place of the image. And so the way that Apple’s old apps

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco used to do it, and the way that kind of became the standard, is that you would have the image

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco basically showing an empty version of your UI. So like an empty table with blank toolbars

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or something like that. And so then you would show it, it would show the empty table with blank toolbars, and then as soon as your app

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco was actually loaded, it would pop in right into those placeholders. So your table

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco would pop content in, your navigation bars would pop titles in and stuff. And the problem with this

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco is that because it was just a static image, you had to make one for every orientation, once the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco came out and once you could launch in non-portrait orientation. So you had to make one for every orientation, you had to make

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco one for every screen density, and you had to make one for every device. So like, you know, once new

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco screen sizes came out, you had to make a different one for that, you had to talk about, you know, 2X, 3X, 1X

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco versions of all of them. And it just became a big pain. And then like, you know, once the system

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or your app changes its style of navigation bars or whatever, you had to remake all the images to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco match the new style. So it’s an interesting system to make loads

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco look like they’re faster. And it’s important that you have a useful launch image. But

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the old system of making them was clunky. So anyway, I would say it has this thing where you can replace it with a storyboard

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco or a ZIP file so that it could basically you could replace it with a dummy UI

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco that has no code behind it, no logic behind it, but like a dummy UI file instead of a static image.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco And so I did that. I overcast 104, the iOS 8 update that was released today.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I replaced it with that and I deleted all my launch images, which is great because then I don’t have to worry about

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what size device you’re running it on at all or what orientation you’re launching

⏹️ ▶️ ^John it on. And it’s just one storyboard, right? One storyboard with a bunch of auto layout constraints and a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ ^John fake controls not wired to anything.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco In fact, mine is even easier. Mine is literally like just the navigation controller because

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco all I’m showing is a title bar, an empty table view in the middle, and a toolbar

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco at the bottom. That’s it. And so, and it’s like the simplest interface document ever.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Anyway, the problem is, there’s a bug, and I’ve had a couple other people confirm it that their apps did this too.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco There’s a bug that if you run this on an iPad for an app that is

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco otherwise marked iPhone only in the info.plist file, it

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco runs it at the iPad’s full size instead of running it in a little iPhone simulator on the iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So that even if your app is marked iPhone only, it basically makes you have

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco an iPad version of your app, unexpectedly, if you didn’t try to just drag over the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco IPA file onto an iPad during development, which I didn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, Casey} So that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco happened. And it turns out I’ve accidentally launched an iPad version because of this bug. The question, of

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco course, is like what to do about it. So it works. It actually like because of auto

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco layout, because I had adjusted some of the constraints and I made the interface work

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco for the iPhone 6 Plus. So I already made the interface big screen friendly,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco so it just doesn’t look broken. It’s not good, it isn’t optimized for it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco A lot of people said it’s like the way Android tablet apps were when Android tablets first came out where they were just blown up phone apps.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s basically just like that, where it is literally just a blown up version of the

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco phone UI. table views are like, you know, giant and cells are all wide and skinny and

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it looks ridiculous. So the question is what to do about it.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco It’s actually an interesting question. So I did plan to have an iPad version, but I also plan to do it, you know, right

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to actually like custom make an iPad interface. And there are people who have been

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco using it on the iPad before who just ran it in a little windowed iPhone mode and you know where he

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco blows it up to the iPad screen. And And that sucks and no question like if you’re on an iPad that sucks

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So I think overall having a blown-up iPhone interface actually sucks less

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Than running it in the iPhone windowed mode, so I think I’ve made an accidental improvement

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco with an accidental iPad app But I don’t intend to actually leave it that way so I

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco what I think I’m going to do instead is You know I’m not gonna like pull this version off

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco the store or anything I’m also not going to revert it back to iPhone only in the next update

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco because that will anger anybody who got used to it now. So I think what I’m going to do is,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco as soon as I reasonably can, which is probably the next update, actually try to make

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco a slightly better adaptation of the interface for the iPad. Probably, you know, a basic

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco split-view kind of layout. A very stock basic UI kit version

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco of what I have now. But just some kind of tweaks to do that. So that’s that’s what I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco to do. And I still need to support rotation. That’s a big one. I have to support landscape orientation

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco on the iPad. That’ll be easy on iPhones. It won’t be. And so I have to deal with that.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco So this is what I’m going to do, basically. But it’s it it’s unfortunate that

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco I accidentally launched an iPad version. On the other hand, it actually is kind of freeing like I retweeted somebody

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco saying this earlier. It’s kind of freeing because like the pressure, I don’t feel any pressure to like make

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco sure my iPad version is perfect.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Well, you should you should hurry up though

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Marco} because I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ ^John to fix that bug and then your iPad version is gonna go away and People are gonna complain

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you think there’s any chance you’re gonna fix that bug. I don’t I don’t think so

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Yeah, I mean it is it seems like a pretty clear bug Like it’s just it’s misreading the you know,

⏹️ ▶️ ^John is this is should we run this on an iPad? Well, I’ll just look at the default images

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} Oh, it’s got

⏹️ ▶️ ^John a scalable and that must mean it’s ready You know like that seems like a pretty easy bug to fix and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John they’ll probably get around to it in 601 I assume and then your app will go back to being scaled.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} You know one

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco you mean, but

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco it all right

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco yeah, I’m sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ ^{Marco, John} Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco Yeah, I talked it. Sorry. I You’re probably right so yeah, I mean I intend to

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco do this like within the next couple of weeks Like that’s what I’m now working on I’m not like once I finish editing

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco editing and publishing this episode of our show. I’m going to go back to working on Making my

⏹️ ▶️ ^Marco my accidental iPad interface a little bit more intentional

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I hope we don’t have to wait weeks for a you know one because it is not getting along with

⏹️ ▶️ ^John my iPod touch. Every once in a while Twitter just stops being able to launch and

⏹️ ▶️ ^John then I have to restart my phone.

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey Maybe you should get an

⏹️ ▶️ ^John iPhone. Maybe I will. Maybe I’ll go

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} to the store and check them out

⏹️ ▶️ ^John sometime see what

⏹️ ▶️ ^{John, Casey} it’s

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey like. I will absolutely crap my pants if you suddenly say on the show

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey one day not only did I buy an iPhone but I bought a 6 plus in gold. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ ^Casey not gonna buy a 6

⏹️ ▶️ ^John plus. I mean go look at the 6 you know exactly which one I’m to get if I get it. I mean, I assume

⏹️ ▶️ ^John I’m going to unless it’s like seeing it in person I’m just overwhelmed by something weird

⏹️ ▶️ ^John about it. But anyway, it’ll happen. Especially if they’re not going to make new iPod

⏹️ ▶️ ^John touches. So I’m probably going to wait until after whatever event in October they’re going to have.

⏹️ ▶️ ^John Oh man. Gotta have all the options on the table before I shoes. It’s not a race. I don’t want to get

⏹️ ▶️ ^John the first ones off the assembly line anyway.