Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

76: Not Suitable for Any Purpose

Overcast post-launch, Pixar and wage-fixing, Yosemite beta, and a very special after-show.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ John Not the right environment. Other people talking,

⏹️ ▶️ John no.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What’s going on? How’s Overcast?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Going great. I talked for two hours about it on Debug last night. Go there to hear more because I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to flood our show too much with it. Too late. So I flooded their show instead.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Guy asked me to be on Debug a while ago and I kept delaying it. I kept saying, oh, I’ll just wait until I release Overcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That way we have something to talk about and I can promote it and whatever. And I’ve been putting it off because that was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably back in February that I said that and so I’m putting it off for quite a while. So finally I went

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I talked about it there for a while. Some of the more low-level tech stuff and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of app business and social stuff like how do you break into the social crowd, how do you break

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into the business, stuff like that. I’m pretty happy with how it turned out. So we’ll see. I don’t know when they’re going to post it, but we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t heard all of your Overcast tour. So maybe you talked about this, or maybe you don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John to talk about it, but in case no one has asked, what are your conversion numbers like if you want to share that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t even know off the top of my head, but they’re pretty good. I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, I don’t even know what a percentage would be because I just know like dollars and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco total, which I don’t really want to share.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I was going to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ask just to be a jerk,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you beat me to it. But anyway, you’re happy with it? It’s more or less what you expected? Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the thing is, it’s so early right now, that, you know, because it’s only been out now as we record

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this for eight days. And so, it’s still on its launch high.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, it’s still featured in the App Store. I think today was its last day. So it was featured in the App Store until probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco midday today. It might be featured somewhere else this week, but I probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not. I don’t know if they do two weeks in a row for anything. And it had all of its launch press.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I really have no clue what the resting point will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be. What’s going to be the common everyday income from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it? With Instapaper I knew that number. It wasn’t always the same, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would be the same for a month. It was always within the same ballpark. It would gradually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go down over time if I didn’t do much with the app, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was pretty predictable for the most part. And so I don’t know what that level will be for Overcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet and I won’t know until probably like a month or two from now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know what really what that is. I can tell you that I’ve had something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I don’t know the exact number something like a hundred thousand or a hundred and hundred and sixty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thousand downloads and of those a little more than half

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have actually made a user account. And that’s an interesting ratio. The problem is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again that will be more interesting later. Like it’ll be more interesting in a few weeks or months once

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all this stuff has settled down. I wasn’t sure like you know because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole thing about needing to create an account to use it that was a decision I made for various

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reasons. I don’t think I ruined them somewhere but they’re pretty boring reasons but that was a conscious

⏹️ ▶️ Marco decision. I know I could you know just generate a random ID and use that but there were lots of reasons I didn’t want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do that. Mostly involving sync to new devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and people forgetting that they have this account and then creating duplicate empty accounts and then it’s a support issue and they think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they lost all their data. It’s a bad scene. Anyway, so you know, roughly a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more than half right now have actually created a user account. But I don’t know, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not doing any analytics yet in the app to know like, how many of those people who didn’t make a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco user account have even launched the app yet. like it could just be people downloaded the app because it was featured,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they haven’t even launched it. It still has the blue dot next to it on springboard. You know, it could be many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those. It could be people launch the app, they see the login screen, they say, I don’t want to create an account, and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco close the app and never launch it again, or they delete it. I’m sure it’s probably a mix of both. I don’t know what the ratios are.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So anyway, that’s probably something I should put analytics in in the app so I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey know and maybe educate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that decision going forward. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. Now, Matthew Palmer asked an interesting question in the chat. Have you been paying close enough attention

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to server load to see roughly when the peak was?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The peak of just server activity in general was a few hours into launch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco day. As far as I can tell, being featured in the App Store does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not cause a big spike. It causes a general rise in the whole week because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people aren’t all checking the App Store at the same time. And so that, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has just like lifted the average for the whole week, and I expect next week’s average to be substantially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lower. But yeah, I don’t really, I’m not going to really know that again until,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, a couple weeks from now when I can look back and see the patterns, see the data.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As far as I can tell, I’m not going to need all eight of my web servers that I created. But I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco killed any of them yet, because I want to do some experiments and stuff, but it doesn’t matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. Anything else you’d like to share about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Overcast? I don’t know. I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t want to bore people with it because who already heard me talk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about it for about six hours now. But yeah, I guess if you have any specific questions, write it and we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see if we can answer them. But I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, any other questions regarding Overcast?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, nothing except for like tech support questions. I’ll just email Marco and add it to his email.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right, so we’ve had something that is possibly follow-up, possibly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not, depending on how you classify it. And it’s been in the show notes for weeks now, but we’ve had more important things to talk about.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s about the emails that Ed Catmull from Pixar had written

⏹️ ▶️ Casey long ago that were recently revealed. And John, I think you’re probably most qualified to talk about this. Do you want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to give us kind of the blow-by-blow?

⏹️ ▶️ John I was trying to remember. You can get a link for the show. a past show and we discussed the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Google sort of, not really direct wage fixing, but the little agreement

⏹️ ▶️ John they had to not poach each other’s employees.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was more than just them. It was a lot of big tech companies.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Apple and Google were the headliners because they’re, you know, and they had emails. It was part of a court case. That’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John we got to see emails from Steve Jobs. And we were, I was incredulous about the Google sending

⏹️ ▶️ John the emails, talking amongst themselves, say, we want to hire this guy, but Steve Jobs might not like it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John get his OK first. And then Steve Jobs says, no, I’d actually rather you not hire this guy. And then they don’t hire

⏹️ ▶️ John him. We complained about that. This story is about

⏹️ ▶️ John a, I think it’s the same thing, a courtroom case where that’s why we’re seeing

⏹️ ▶️ John these internal emails. And that’s why this information is public. This time involving digital special

⏹️ ▶️ John effects companies, or some of them anyway. One of them is Pixar. What was the other one? Sony was

⏹️ ▶️ John the one who was not playing by the rules and was poaching people from Pixar. and Pixar was all cranky about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Ed Catmull is heavily featured both on the witness stand and in these emails. And the last time

⏹️ ▶️ John we talked about Ed Catmull was about his book Creativity Inc, which I really liked, and talked about on the Incomparable,

⏹️ ▶️ John an episode we did just on that topic. And these emails show that he

⏹️ ▶️ John was involved in this wage fixing, you know, what I don’t understand. We don’t call it wage fixing. What’s the best way to

⏹️ ▶️ John describe this?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wage fixing? Yeah, wage fixing is the result. It wasn’t quite

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the action they took, but that was definitely the result of the actions they took.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and anyway, it’s the same exact thing that the other tech companies were involved in. All these companies

⏹️ ▶️ John are like, the heads of these companies are like, it’s best for all of us involved if we just promise not to poach

⏹️ ▶️ John each other’s employees. So don’t cold call our people at their desks if you get their number and say, hey, come work for our

⏹️ ▶️ John company. We do a similar thing, and we’ll pay you our money. Just don’t do that to each other because it’s just a hassle for all of us to

⏹️ ▶️ John have to worry about these people leaving and so on and so forth. The exact same situation was Apple and Steve Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John and Google and all these other tech companies, in that the

⏹️ ▶️ John result is that the marketplace for these people’s skills is not as competitive as it should be, because these guys are essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John agreeing not to pay the people what they’re worth just to make their lives easier as the heads of the companies.

⏹️ ▶️ John And as much as I admire Ed Catmull, he’s doing the exact same thing here. And seeing this, both in the case

⏹️ ▶️ John of Steve Jobs, who I also admire, and Ed Catmull and Pixar companies, you just have to think about

⏹️ ▶️ John what is it that makes these people think that this is an appropriate thing to do, especially Ed Campbell makes a point in his book

⏹️ ▶️ John of specifically highlighting instances where he did something for

⏹️ ▶️ John for moral reasons, even though, you know, like not taking advantage of employees, not working them to death,

⏹️ ▶️ John not doing all these strategies that other companies in a tech business do, not because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John bad for business, but because it’s immoral, because you’d be exploiting your workers. This is exactly as immoral. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking I’m thinking like, what happens to you that you get into a space

⏹️ ▶️ John where you believe you’re being, you’re doing your job well, and you’re also a good person, and yet these

⏹️ ▶️ John are the decisions you make?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you think it came down from Jobs that he maybe didn’t want to do it, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Steve Jobs said, you have to, this is the way it is?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it seems like, I mean, it’s kind of a masters of the universe thing, where at a certain

⏹️ ▶️ John point, and despite all the things I say in Creativity Inc., And one of the things that Campbell talks about is it’s very difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John to know when this is happening to you. So the relevant part for Creativity Inc. is when they’re having these meetings,

⏹️ ▶️ John and they wanted to have these meetings where everyone could have a voice. And they didn’t want there to be any sort of class structure.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they would invite everybody to these meetings. And we’d all talk together. And they were intentionally

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to make it, don’t feel like you can’t speak up because you just got hired a week ago. And I’m the president of the company.

⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone’s input is important. But I forget the details. But it was something like, that’s all well and good. But when

⏹️ ▶️ John you came in the room, they had arranged seating so that the important people got the good seats in a place where everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John could hear them. And other people had to be sitting on the radiator in the corner. And of course, they never felt like they could jump in. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they did this for a long time until the executives realized the reason other people aren’t jumping in is because we

⏹️ ▶️ John are the executives and we get the good seats. We’re marginalizing them unconsciously. And so they

⏹️ ▶️ John abolish the assigned seating, let people sit wherever they want. Executives don’t automatically get the good seats or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And again, creativity is all about you’re not going to see that that’s happening. You’re going to think you’re doing everything in an equitable

⏹️ ▶️ John manner, and you’re not. And this seems like an even worse case, where he’s on the witness stand. He doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John seem like he’s apologizing for this. He doesn’t even seem regretful or whatever. He’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just sort of stating the facts the way they are. When you’re running a company, you’re like, I’m doing a good job,

⏹️ ▶️ John aren’t I? Like, this kind of churn of employees going from place to place, that’s bad for everyone’s business. Like, we want to just,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I’m going to treat my employees well and do right by them. But it’s no good if these employees keep going

⏹️ ▶️ John to the better offer from one place to the other, if we would, you know, that’s just too much churn. And

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe it is inconvenient for the people who run these companies, but that’s not, if you’re the head of the company, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John your job to dictate the lives and job prospects of the people under you, right? It’s not indentured

⏹️ ▶️ John servitude. It’s an employment at will. You can fire them whenever you want. They should be able to leave whenever they want. And you, by

⏹️ ▶️ John illegally colluding with other people in the same industry, to say, don’t give that guy a better opportunity

⏹️ ▶️ John anyplace else. If you agree to that, I’ll agree to that for your people. We’ll just keep all our people and we don’t have to pay them what they

⏹️ ▶️ John would get paid otherwise. How do you square that circle? And I think it’s more like

⏹️ ▶️ John you just feel like you’re doing what’s best for the company. You’re doing your job well and you’re trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to make your people happy. And you’re like, oh, look, no one is hurt there. And you don’t see that you are essentially deciding.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re controlling people’s lives in an improper way. And I think as you move up in the executive

⏹️ ▶️ John ranks, and I’ve seen this in many places to varying degrees, you lose touch with the rest of the world.

⏹️ ▶️ John you start to think you are different than other people, even in a sort of egalitarian company where they don’t like having assigned seating and meetings. But

⏹️ ▶️ John most companies are not like that. Most companies are like, I’m big people, you’re little people. I make

⏹️ ▶️ John a salary that has more digits than your salary. I drive a nicer car. I have a personal assistant. I have a secretary.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t keep my own schedule. I get to come and go as I please. You know, like all these

⏹️ ▶️ John things just build up this sort of image of yourself that you are different than the other people. And even if you’re magnanimous

⏹️ ▶️ John and like, you know, you’re like, I’m the benevolent dictator. You’re still the king. But I love my subjects. I treat them well.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s really difficult to fight against that, even apparently, even if you’re Ed Catmull.

⏹️ ▶️ John No analytical engineering style brain is apparently enough to completely resist that. Although I’m sure there are exceptions.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can think probably that would never happen to John Carmack because he has too much nerdiness and not

⏹️ ▶️ John enough of the other things to ever get him into the headspace. And now someone should send me a story about John Carmack doing something similar, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll cry. But I’m sad to hear about my personal heroes making a mistake.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m sadder to see that as far as I can tell from witness stand testimony, which may not be representative because

⏹️ ▶️ John a lawyer probably advises them just to just stick to the facts, that

⏹️ ▶️ John your heroes have flaws too, and they make mistakes. And this was a bad move,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it makes me sad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It reminds me of the episode of Top Gear where James

⏹️ ▶️ Casey May drives the, you knew I had to go there, where James May

⏹️ ▶️ Marco drives a Kuntosh. Everything reminds you of an episode of Top Gear. It’s true. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of sad. But anyway, James drives a Countach, which was his favorite car when he was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey growing up or whatever. And he realized that this, his fantasy car, was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an utter piece of crap because you can’t get into it, can’t get out of it, can’t see out the back. It’s impossible to drive, impossible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to park, and it’s awful. And he said he kind of wished he had never driven it in the first place

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it ruined it for him. that this is a perfect analogy but it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reminds me of it nevertheless.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s how I felt when I finally played a Sega Saturn.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You and I are the king of terrible analogies. Kings of terrible analogies.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean like it’s not it’s not as if I thought anyone was perfect like Steve Jobs is the perfect example anyone who knows anything about Steve Jobs you

⏹️ ▶️ John can admire him all you want but there are so many terrible stories about him that no one is ever thinking that Steve Jobs is perfect and then how’s

⏹️ ▶️ John those dreams grow like it’s part and parcel of the reputation whereas Catmull’s reputation was just so much like,

⏹️ ▶️ John everything that’s bad about other high-powered executives is not bad about this guy. Because he’s the nerd’s

⏹️ ▶️ John nerd. He’s the engineer. He’s able to not fall victim to all those other things.

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s not a jerk in the way those guys are jerks. He’s soft-spoken and thoughtful. And look at this great book he wrote. And look at all these

⏹️ ▶️ John talks he gives. And this doesn’t take away from all of that. All of that is good, just as much as this thing is also bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it just goes to show that everyone makes mistakes. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the worst thing about it is, does he think it’s a mistake? Or does he think, well, if we didn’t do this,

⏹️ ▶️ John it would have been, there’s lots of rationalization. If we didn’t do this, it would have been worse for our employees because of reasons x, y, and z.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you can say, well, the laws against collusion, I don’t agree with them. I think those laws shouldn’t be

⏹️ ▶️ John there, and therefore I’m breaking an unjust law. It’s not a big deal. But I would hope that in any sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of extended conversation on that topic, he could be brought around to the notion that is so clear to all those of us who are

⏹️ ▶️ John the peon workers, that this is a terrible thing to do to anybody, to collude with other companies

⏹️ ▶️ John to limit the employment opportunities. Like, that’s not how you keep your employees, by just making sure that

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t have other job prospects. Even if you treat them super well, which by all accounts they do, or at least try to,

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t matter. You don’t get to do that. You don’t get to say, because I’m so important, not only will I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John keep you here not just by treating you well, but by sort of making sure that you don’t have any better prospects elsewhere. Despite the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John if we didn’t have this deal, you know, like Sony, who wasn’t following these rules, was like, we’ll offer you more money. We’ll put you in

⏹️ ▶️ John charge of an entire movie. Come over to our company. And employees would leave, and it’d be like, oh, we don’t want that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, if you don’t want that, pay those people more. Make them happier. That’s called a competitive marketplace.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s disappointing. It’s sad. It makes me angry that this happens to people because,

⏹️ ▶️ John not that I’m in the digital animation field, but if a similar thing was going

⏹️ ▶️ John on, and I was looking for a job, or not just looking for a job.

⏹️ ▶️ John If I had a job, and I knew that some other company wanted me to work for them, but they had an agreement with my company that they wouldn’t poach me,

⏹️ ▶️ John I would be pissed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would be too and Marco doesn’t know what that’s like. So tell me about something that’s awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This week we are sponsored by our friends once again at Hover. Hover is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my words a domain registrar that is actually good. There are many domain registrars that are not good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In fact, I would say pretty much every other one I’ve tried. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last time I was registering domains and looking to leave the the let’s say the elephant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the room. I got suggestions from all sorts of people about whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know whatever regular they use basically is what people always recommend like when you ask people for recommendations on anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they just tell you what they use and I tried a lot of them actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I really didn’t like any of them very much and hover was definitely my favorite

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was the one that that it was not only the only one I really liked but clearly the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the bunch and I don’t even use most of their features honestly because it so they have all sorts of cool stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So let me go through the basics. Hover of course lets you register domain names.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You guys know what that is. I’m not going to explain it. You can register domains. You can get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco host. I don’t think they offer full on web hosting, but they do offer email hosting and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the domain stuff you need. DNS. All the stuff that you think should come with it does come with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. You have privacy. Who is privacy built in for free for any TLD

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that supports it. Some of them have weird restrictions that don’t allow anyone to do that, but most of them support it. However,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I give that to you at no charge. They have amazing support and oh, and they have a beautiful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interface. You know, managing the stuff is all like this nice web interface. They have amazing support where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not only can you go online, of course, they have those options, but you can even call them on the phone and a human being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco picks up the phone. They have a no hold, no wait, no transfer phone policy. So you just call

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this number during business hours and you talk to a human immediately who can actually help you. really quite amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re running a sale right now, so we have all these new domain extensions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like you know dot plumbing and all this all these all these crazy domain extensions.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now they are running it until until September 1st. These are let me see I think it’s half

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off. I don’t know if it’s I don’t know what the sale is, but they are on sale. I believe there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe they’re pretty steeply discounted. So all these new domain extensions that have come out over the last few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco months that are mostly useless but there’s a couple of good ones. All of those are on sale now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at hover through September first or until September first. I believe this is the dot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dot greater than or dot dot less than operator and swift for this range here. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco until September first, these are on sale. See I’m learning swift. I told you I would learn it or something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I see it’s a new I’m learning a language guys. Give me some credit. I even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco paid attention to when they change the syntax like a week ago. See, I read the internet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So go to head over to, see the full list of all these crazy new domains, or you can buy one of the old ones. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fantastic. They have also this great value transfer service. One of our friend of the show, Joel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hausman, was telling me that he had a transfer and I don’t know if I don’t think I’m allowed to go into all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco details, but he had to do a pretty large transfer of many domains into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hover and he used the value transfer service for it, and it’s a number that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I would I would assume that if hover had some asterisk somewhere saying, we won’t do this for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more than x domains, I would have assumed this number was above that. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they they did it and it worked great. And they did this whole transfer of many domain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco names from the old registrar where if you choose to you can you basically just give them the login to your old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco registrar and they will move it all over for you. You don’t have to of course you can move it yourself but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco moving domain names sucks because you got to you You got to make sure you got the DNS settings correct and don’t drop anything on the floor, otherwise,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then your server goes down for eight hours while new things propagate. Anyway, go to It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just a regular store that’s good, basically, and that’s quite a feat in this industry.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I use it. Lots of people use it. Check it out. Use our promo code.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the hosts of this show might say that frequently. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey think ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could that be something like that so go to and use promo code I hate you so much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that will get you 10% off your first purchase and tell them that you came from us Which will make them keep sponsoring our show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which will make us keep making shows so everyone’s happy Thank you very much to hover for sponsoring our show once

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again

⏹️ ▶️ Casey excellent all right, so Today the day that we’re recording this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is probably roughly a week before we release it is is the first day of the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey public beta for Yosemite. And I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even registered for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should, it’s capped to a million people. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better hurry. I would have assumed they were all just taken as soon as they started. Me too.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, like, I don’t know if they announced anything about it. When I heard that it was capped

⏹️ ▶️ John at a million, I’m like, do a million people really wanna run a beta OS? A beta

⏹️ ▶️ John app, maybe, but a beta OS, like, that’s all, you know, you got to do the whole installation procedure and it’s all different

⏹️ ▶️ John and weird. And like, I don’t think a million people are probably equipped.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I guess maybe they are. Let’s say equipped in terms of having good, do you think a million Mac users have

⏹️ ▶️ John good enough backups that if they install the Yosemite beta and immediately erase their entire disc, they would be fine?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, definitely not, but they will.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe, well, how many, what’s the installed base of Mac users?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I would guess in the, maybe around a hundred million range, something like that, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s like 1% of, do you think 1% of people, I think 1% of Mac users might have good backups

⏹️ ▶️ John with Time Machine and everything. 80 million says the chat room, installed base of Mac users.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t, anyway, it seems, I mean, we know that most of the people who install this bid are not gonna have good backups and chances

⏹️ ▶️ John are they’ll be fine. But like, you know, people are, people are their own worst enemies and people just like to

⏹️ ▶️ John be daring and there’s just a bunch of kids. Like, I mean, I know if I was a kid, I would be like, yep, I’m installing this on the family computer right now.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would have no question. I mean, like I did with Windows 2000 when that beta came out. Yep. When

⏹️ ▶️ John I tweeted about this, I was like, look, I don’t generally, I’ve talked about this in the show, I don’t generally recommend people install betas.

⏹️ ▶️ John A beta means it’s not finished, means there’s going to be bugs. Have backups, blah,

⏹️ ▶️ John blah, blah, the whole nine yards. It’s best if you could do it on a spare machine, if not that, on a spare hard drive, all

⏹️ ▶️ John this stuff. And then people are like, oh, you’re being too conservative or whatever. I’m like, yeah, I mean, like I said, when I was a kid, I just

⏹️ ▶️ John would’ve done, but that’s why I kept screwing up our computers when I was a kid. It’s part of the learning process.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t tell people they can’t do it. But if someone installs this, and you know this is going to happen

⏹️ ▶️ John no matter how many disclaimers you give, and there’s some bug that causes data loss, they’re going to be super pissed. They’ll be like, how

⏹️ ▶️ John dare this Apple? But it’s like, it’s a beta. Like, you did it to yourself. You know? Even in the

⏹️ ▶️ John release version, like, there’s always going to be bugs. Like, every piece of software comes with that big giant all caps thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John says, this software is not useful for any purpose. Like, whatever the hell that text is, do you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that? It’s like a warrantability something, like disclaimer of warrantability, something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not suitable for any purpose.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah. Like no matter what you think

⏹️ ▶️ John the software is good for, we’re saying nope. We do not say that the software is good for anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even if even if it directly contradicts what was on the box.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. Like if if you’ve you know, if we put on the box, this software can add numbers together. Nope. We’re not promising anything.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s it might just erase your disc and that’s it. Anyway, so you know people

⏹️ ▶️ John just have to use their own conscience and and like kids and adults will make mistakes,

⏹️ ▶️ John people will lose data. That’s life. But just because Apple releases something

⏹️ ▶️ John publicly doesn’t mean it is of the same stability. Beta actually does have a meaning, and it means

⏹️ ▶️ John not done yet. So go for it. Use your conscience as your

⏹️ ▶️ John guide. So I mean, that’s why I thought a million is maybe not outside their realm of possibility, because a million people may want to do this.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s probably a million kids who want to install this on their parents’ computers and have an Apple ID.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s there’s your million right there. Um, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, the real question is not so much who’s gonna install it and how are they gonna go? How is it gonna go for them?

⏹️ ▶️ John But why is Apple doing this?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I don’t know. That’s a very good question. You know, I wonder if it has to do with the IBM thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder if this is about enterprise stuff, you know, how so like giving like giving enterprises,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, being able to go to enterprise customers and say, look, we’re becoming more open. we are now doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco public betas to make our stuff a little more palatable to your IT departments.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it’s aimed at IT departments. If you remember, they did public betas for

⏹️ ▶️ John 10.9.3 and 10.9.4. Do you remember that? Probably not because most

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco people

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t. But they actually did do public betas of OS X, the 10.9.3 release, and the 10.9.5. And who cares to

⏹️ ▶️ John have a public beta of a point release? Because like there’s nothing, you know, it doesn’t look any different really. They probably fixed some

⏹️ ▶️ John driver issues or whatever. I don’t even install the point releases, you know, even though I’m on the Mac dev program

⏹️ ▶️ John and I get all the emails about it, but this was a public beta of 10.9.3 and 10.9.4, and that was sort of the warmup round

⏹️ ▶️ John for the public beta of these things. And I think Apple got

⏹️ ▶️ John good results from the 10.9.3 and 10.9.4. Again, with the beta, it’s like, why bother going to the

⏹️ ▶️ John public, especially with 10.9? Do you really care if regular non-developers download 10.9.3?

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that getting you any information that you’re not already getting from developers? And the answer is yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John The answer is that a different class of person, uses downloads this type

⏹️ ▶️ John of thing, and they use it in a different way than developers use it. Developers are probably using it to test their apps

⏹️ ▶️ John or to test whether their pet bug is fixed. But regular people don’t have apps. And they don’t have,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe they have pet UI bugs, but they don’t have like pet API bugs, right? So they’re going to install

⏹️ ▶️ John it and use it like a regular computer and find things that developers wouldn’t find. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s, I think, why Apple is going with the larger beta. And people in chat were pointing out, yes, of course,

⏹️ ▶️ John 10 public beta, as in before 10.0, if anyone remembers way back when, that

⏹️ ▶️ John you got to pay for the privilege of installing. It was like 30 bucks or something. I think I still have the box sitting off to

⏹️ ▶️ John my right here somewhere. And that was a similar type of thing, in that they had had

⏹️ ▶️ John developer preview releases of OS X. But A, there was probably some schedule pressure to say, is this

⏹️ ▶️ John a real thing that people can buy? And B, having a wider test group is a good thing. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s gated by something then it was gated by 30 bucks and the and the knowledge of that it exists and now it’s gated

⏹️ ▶️ John by this million people or whatever The public beta has a public feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John application that you look it’s right in the dock I just installed the public beta right before the show. It’s a little purple

⏹️ ▶️ John icon right in the dock It’s a nice looking little app where you can send your feedback and I guarantee you they’re gonna get

⏹️ ▶️ John very very different feedback from people typing in that little application than they would get from developers

⏹️ ▶️ John and They’ve made it as easy as possible as soon as you launch the public beta it throws the feedback thing in your face explains What it is

⏹️ ▶️ John it stays in your dock? It says click me a big giant button click here and start typing stuff if you think you’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John a suggestion or a problem Or whatever so I don’t think there’s any particular Downsides

⏹️ ▶️ John this except for the poor suckers who can download it and encounter some bug and be sad But

⏹️ ▶️ John for Apple it seems like a little upside I don’t think there any reputation that

⏹️ ▶️ John they get from people who download a beta find a bug and get sad about it is is going to really hurt them, especially since they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John capping it, and especially since those people will probably get over it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder if one of the big driving factors for this might have been the 1090 Gmail issues.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because that was that was like this massive issue where you know, where Mavericks.o

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had and even I think that one and that to the first few Mavericks releases had many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco issues using Gmail and And that’s the kind of bug that you don’t tend to find

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in large numbers among developers, because they’re usually not making it their primary machine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and like moving into it and you know bringing their email over and everything. Developers who are testing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, just testing out their apps are probably just doing a clean install on some external drive or something or some different partition

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and testing their app and that’s it. And so and that was a pretty severe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and embarrassing bug for Apple that affected a lot of people, a lot of everyday users.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it definitely should have gotten caught in the betas, but for whatever reason, it didn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s a weird one because I did put my real Gmail account into Apple Mail and that

⏹️ ▶️ John thing as I do with all OS X things. And the reason I didn’t notice this thing is because

⏹️ ▶️ John Gmail never has worked right

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco for me in Apple Mail.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is never like every time I do it, I go to like, first, I just try it in the default config

⏹️ ▶️ John like you do. It’s Gmail, Apple Mail, you just do the right thing. And it doesn’t It doesn’t work right. I move

⏹️ ▶️ John things, they go back to where they were. Things appear in one place, not in the other. It’s not in sync with the web UI, all sorts of things. Then

⏹️ ▶️ John I go to Google’s website and say, Google, do you have any updated advice on how I’m supposed to configure Apple Mail to work with your thing? And

⏹️ ▶️ John inevitably, it’s different than the defaults. And I configure it the way Google says. And it still works in crazy ways. I

⏹️ ▶️ John just think that’s not a tenable configuration. I never would recommend anybody, if you have a Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ John account, do not use Apple Mail with it. The only thing that works if you have a Gmail account and you want to use Apple Mail is pop,

⏹️ ▶️ John which Gmail still supports, pop your mail to Apple Mail, which is terrible. Who wants to use pop, right? But at

⏹️ ▶️ John least that works in an understandable, consistent fashion. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel bad for the people who have this problem, but I feel worse for these people who have been using Gmail and Apple Mail for years.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe they sort of got to a steady state where they understood the foibles. And the simple, oh, just

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t hide all mail from the label from IMAP and do all the things you’re supposed to do. Whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John recommended guide that they read this year, last year, the year before, because there have been many, many guides of how to get

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Mail to work with Gmail. First of all, all those guys are different. Like go back through the years and find the different guides. All

⏹️ ▶️ John the guys are different. They can’t all be right. Apple Mail may have changed behavior. There may be updated advice. But anyway, they get something

⏹️ ▶️ John that they sort of understand that works the way they think it does. And then the behavior changes. And yeah, there were legitimate

⏹️ ▶️ John bugs in here that apparently were worse than they were before. But there still have to be crazy idiosyncratic behaviors.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, there was when I was testing it. I just I just can’t use it as a mail client. I can’t trust that it’s going to do what I

⏹️ ▶️ John want. And the web interface to Gmail, when I move something, mark something as read, archive something, label

⏹️ ▶️ John it or whatever, it works. It always does what it was supposed to do. It never undoes itself. There’s never any mysteries

⏹️ ▶️ John or anything like that. In Apple Mail, I never know if it is completely up to date, if my

⏹️ ▶️ John actions are going to take place, when it’s going to synchronize with the web UI and all that stuff. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that is kind of a lost But you’re right that if there are complaints about this,

⏹️ ▶️ John like if suddenly people’s existing Gmail, Apple Mail setups that they were used to, like the set of bugs that

⏹️ ▶️ John were used to shifts to a different set of bugs or adds a worse bug, people will tell them about it and they won’t miss

⏹️ ▶️ John it. So I think that, you know, if they had done this for Mavericks, they would have caught that bug as

⏹️ ▶️ John well. I’m just saying for the specific case of this bug, I don’t recommend anybody use Apple Mail with Gmail, not

⏹️ ▶️ John in this release, not in any future release until like, I think, I think basically

⏹️ ▶️ John ever, because as much as Gmail wants to support IMAP, IMAP has a different model than the Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ John model, and I don’t see how you can ever bridge those worlds without some compromises.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and also, from what I understand, IMAP is a pretty complicated standard, and also,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Mail apparently is not the best IMAP client. It takes some liberties.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was complaining about that problem earlier, and some guy on Twitter told me that he wrote an IMAP server once,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and dealing with Apple Mail was hard. I’ve heard that before throughout history from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of people. I suspect that the Google attitude, like if some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco behavior in mail that is not quite doing what the IMAP spec says is correct or ideal,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if something like that is causing issues with Gmail, Google is exactly the kind of company to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, well, we’re not going to fix that. That’s Apple’s problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, Google does seem like it wants to work with Apple Mail because they do publish these detailed

⏹️ ▶️ John guides with screenshots of how to configure Apple Mail to work with Gmail. I think there is an effort

⏹️ ▶️ John there on Google’s part to make their web service work with Apple’s mail client Mostly because

⏹️ ▶️ John I think a lot of people at Google use Macs and like to use Apple mail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You think they use Apple mail in like corporate and Google?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s Macs all over Google And I can’t imagine every single person is using the web UI bearing you’re not you’re like There’s a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of people who just don’t like to use the web UI for mail

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would love to hear from somebody who works at Google a confirm or deny this statement

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, either way, I think that Apple is actually more apt to be like, well, screw those Google guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Gmail doesn’t really treat IMAP the way it should, which is up for debate. But you know, they do that label

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing. They do all this weirdness and delete is actually archive and screw those Google

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys. We’re going to do it our way, which is the way the spec says we should maybe. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s actually Google’s problem. I think that’s much more likely than Google being bitter about Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not handling things right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I also imagine that Google does not care that much about getting all the details of IMAP

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly right. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if this is their problem, like, I mean, I said on Twitter a while ago that I suspect that Google Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco IMAP is not long for this world. I really don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google gives a crap about IMAP and that shows it throughout history with how bad it’s been.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It hasn’t just been like client-side bugs. It’s actually been like server failures frequently and stuff like that. Google

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iMap or Gmail iMap has always sucked and so I have to imagine it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just not a big priority for them because it just doesn’t serve any of their any of their interests and they probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just look down on it like some kind of crappy compatibility layer that they have to have for certain stubborn people who won’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use the web app that’s the that’s the attitude that I get from them they still support pop though well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the same way you know like they support pop and the way I support ie6

⏹️ ▶️ John but they support pop correctly like it’s the pop is not a complicated protocol. They support it. Why would they still have Popper?

⏹️ ▶️ John And who in the world is using Pop for their Gmail other than me? By the way, the reason I use Pop

⏹️ ▶️ John for Gmail and Outlook, and the reason I do that is that is my backup of all my Gmail email. I pop

⏹️ ▶️ John everything from Gmail down. And it just gets siphoned into a big bin. It doesn’t get filtered off to

⏹️ ▶️ John the, you know what I mean? But that is 100% reliable. And there’s no way I’m ever going to launch my app,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s going to synchronize with Gmail and delete all my mail. Whereas if I was using IMAP, and it gets confused about the world because

⏹️ ▶️ John it thinks the prefix is different, it’s going to be like, oh, I don’t think you have an email, but I’ve got all these local

⏹️ ▶️ John files. Let me just delete them all for you. It’s never going to do that with POP. POP is like, it comes in, it goes, and after

⏹️ ▶️ John you get it, I don’t care what the hell you do with it, I’m never going to touch it again. Unless you delete it locally, I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John going to, you know. So it’s just so much simpler. So I hope they never do get rid of POP, because that is essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John how I have my real time backup of my Gmail. But yeah, I don’t know how you,

⏹️ ▶️ John IMAP, I don’t even know if IMAP is one of those standards where there’s like 800 different nuances, and there’s no like official

⏹️ ▶️ John one. So you can argue about why I’m complying with the standard while I’m complying is an RFC. Is there an RFC and I’m apper

⏹️ ▶️ John is it just a million different weird implementations kind of like the web used to be in the bad old days.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know for sure. I do know it is a very large, complicated protocol that can do a lot of things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I’m out can do calendar syncing, note syncing, all this crazy stuff that almost no clients actually support.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple uses it for notes. Right, exactly. And so I would imagine it’s the kind of thing where like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every client that supports a different 80% of the spec. It’s probably that situation.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and then Apple Mail does all this weird stuff about like, where do you want me to put deleted messages? And

⏹️ ▶️ John then in IMAP you’re like, am I putting that in a place that also exists in the IMAP world, or am

⏹️ ▶️ John I putting it in a local one? And it’s like, I’m always fighting with Apple Mail to get each account to keep

⏹️ ▶️ John track of its own, where do I put my drafts, where do I put my deleted messages, where do I put my sent mail, in a

⏹️ ▶️ John sane way, because it’s just so, so confusing, which is why I recommend everybody who uses email,

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s not technically inclined, should just use the Gmail web interface and funnel all their email

⏹️ ▶️ John there, because the Gmail web interface will never be out of sync. You can send to and from any kind of account

⏹️ ▶️ John from there. It is like the Rosetta Stone of email. And I guess your punishment

⏹️ ▶️ John is that you, the Rosetta Stone is the exactly wrong analogy, don’t send me email. But your punishment

⏹️ ▶️ John is that you have to use a web UI, but it will always be in sync. And I can’t even get my own parents

⏹️ ▶️ John to do that. So I am unsuccessful in this campaign to try to get. My mother insists on using Apple Mail,

⏹️ ▶️ John and she insists on having multiple email accounts. One is for spam, she says. And

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco talk to me about it. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John it becomes more complicated. It’s much simpler if you do that. Someone put the RFC in the chat room for IMAP. They say it’s RFC 3501.

⏹️ ▶️ John So maybe there is a spec. But yeah, like Marco said, there is a long history of,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, well, this IMAP server is good. And this service doesn’t bend like in Gmail, you’re totally right. There is no IMAP server.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is Gmail and someone put some sort of IMAP like adapter on front of it and had to decide, okay, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John what is the closest analogy in the way the Gmail works to this operation in IMAP? And they just have to make choices

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey weird. So as riveting as all this email conversation is, can we go back to the Yosemite beta?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Because I have a couple questions.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So I have a couple of questions about this Yosemite beta.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If Apple really wanted to appeal to the enterprise, I don’t recall which one of the two of you said that, wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you think there are better levers to pull than just issuing a public beta? For example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wasn’t it you, John, that had complained and moaned unjustifiably about the Cisco VPN

⏹️ ▶️ Casey client or whatever VPN client it was that didn’t work with Mavericks for forever? Or am I making that up?

⏹️ ▶️ John Still doesn’t because I actually haven’t tried it in Yosemite. I have no idea if it does, but yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John the built-in, Apple built in a bunch of, you know, capability to work with a lot of common

⏹️ ▶️ John VPN clients using whatever the open protocols are for secure IP and so on and so forth. And for

⏹️ ▶️ John a little while, my company used a VPN that conformed to these standards. But it’s basically the fault

⏹️ ▶️ John of the VPN companies saying, well, we can’t have that. We can’t have just

⏹️ ▶️ John built-in OS support for our VPN. We need to innovate. And so we need to make a new protocol that this

⏹️ ▶️ John OS doesn’t support and then make everybody install the world’s worst software, which is VPN software

⏹️ ▶️ John from random VPN vendors. who don’t really know or care anything about the Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s gotten better over the years. I still feel a little wiggy using it to give an example of the type of

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that really makes no difference, but just makes me feel bad about VPN software. When I launch

⏹️ ▶️ John my VPN software, it has a little dialog box with a connect button on it.

⏹️ ▶️ John That little window, the first window that appears, appears in just some location that’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the top of it is jammed up against the menu bar, but the right side is like an inch away. Like, it’s an arbitrary position.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t understand how that position is picked. If I move that window, doesn’t matter. Next time I launch the app, it’s going to be right back to the other spot.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know where it stores that window location. Every time it launches, I feel like I have to move it. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John taunting me. Anyway. Yeah, if Apple wanted to appeal to the enterprise,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think this move is a way to do it, because it is so clearly focused

⏹️ ▶️ John on the public, as in people who might like that. If you, I encourage both of you to go through the process. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John sign up and go through the process. So consumer like aimed at a consumer, super friendly,

⏹️ ▶️ John big giant text screenshots. When you try to sign up for it’s like here’s what you should do. Back

⏹️ ▶️ John up your computer, you can do it this way, you can do it the other way, like it’s a step by step. And then when you download it, it makes you go through

⏹️ ▶️ John another big long list. It doesn’t even show you the download link. So you can’t rush through and click stuff, you have to read text and then eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John like, it is so consumer focused. And same thing with the installation, putting the feedback thing right in your face.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is for regular people. Now, I suppose IT people can do it as well. But IT people,

⏹️ ▶️ John they would just sign up for a Mac developer account and have access to all the dev seeds anyway. And they would probably

⏹️ ▶️ John be using it more like a developer. And they have specific apps or specific things that they’re testing compatibility

⏹️ ▶️ John with. But they’re not going to install it on their personal machine and use it every day for their work. They’re really just going to install it on

⏹️ ▶️ John a test machine and try out all their supported software and report bugs to whoever is appropriate for the stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, and that’s my point is that a public beta doesn’t really help with this moronic VPN

⏹️ ▶️ Casey company. What helps with with with enterprise adoption is getting these moronic VPN

⏹️ ▶️ Casey companies like Cisco that insists on having their own God awful clients to actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey support new operating systems. I just feel like if the if what they’re trying to accomplish is enterprise

⏹️ ▶️ Casey adoption, I don’t feel like a public beta is the right lever to pull to get there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it wasn’t there. Didn’t we go through the whole thing with the VPN is a Cisco VPN. I’m not going to call the moronic because again, their software

⏹️ ▶️ John works hasn’t crashed hasn’t caused kernel panics, unlike some other company’s Symantec antivirus.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, god, someone please kill me. It’s just UI-wise

⏹️ ▶️ John looks gross. But I think last time it was more or less that they had an update, but there’s sort of a release train.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they couldn’t get their update to support Mavericks onto the release train that would be out sooner. They had to get it out on

⏹️ ▶️ John the one later. Like, I think that software like that, that is essential,

⏹️ ▶️ John should, you know, you’ve got a long time to test with Yosemite, however long it’s been since June

⏹️ ▶️ John and into the fall. It should be available on day one unless there’s something about the OS, some bug in the OS that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple hasn’t fixed that you told them about. And they’re just like, well, we can’t go until they fix that bug.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have to wait a couple of weeks. Is that a big deal? Not really. It’s better than not being supported for years.

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, an example of that from my past is when Oracle didn’t have a 64-bit client

⏹️ ▶️ John library for OS X for literally years. And it was just, that’s just inexcusable

⏹️ ▶️ John neglect. Cisco was just behind by a week or two or whatever, and their Mac software is not great. But

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a range of stuff here. But a public beta is not

⏹️ ▶️ John even on the radar, I think, of these IT people, unless they’re worried about their individual employees knowing about the public beta

⏹️ ▶️ John and trying to install it or agitating that way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, and then that’s kind of my point, is that the public beta may do a lot of things for Apple, but I don’t think it helps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with enterprise adoption. The other question I had, which I don’t know what the answer to this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would be, Where do these what did you call the thing that was on the dock that lets you submit feedback?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whatever that feedback app is, what what is the output of that internal to Apple? Like are those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey radars? What is that?

⏹️ ▶️ John I bet it’s I mean, they probably use everything is probably all goes into radar eventually, but I’m sure they’re tagged

⏹️ ▶️ John as coming from public beta in some way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it’s just I know that Marco and a couple other people, a friend of the show,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Daniel Jowkett and a few other people right around WWDC time, we’re kind of going back and forth about well, Is there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey any real utility in filing a radar blah blah blah and this is not exactly a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey forgive me apples to apples comparison, but nevertheless, I just kind of wonder

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just kind of wonder if this is going to radar that sounds just freaking terrible because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got to imagine they’re overwhelmed with radars as it is I hope.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you’d be able to feel like if it is going to radar it would only be because that’s the only bucket they have available

⏹️ ▶️ John for this but it’s not as if it would be suddenly cluttering out people’s inboxes because there’s got to be a process whereby someone,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, there’s a first level triage of sorting through the giant avalanche of crap that’s coming through the feedback agent

⏹️ ▶️ John to find anything actionable and then throw it off into an engineering bucket. Like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t think suddenly after this launches, people who would normally troll through radars for bugs

⏹️ ▶️ John have a big flood of stuff. There’s got to be layers of, there’s going to be processes before, because so much of

⏹️ ▶️ John it is going to be like, you know, as someone just put in the chat room, I think the new finder icon is ugly. Well, maybe that

⏹️ ▶️ John one’s not, you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not really actionable in the Yosemite 10 10 0 timeframe.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. And I mean, I think you’re right that the smart money says that it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it is radar, it’s just radar with some sort of tag or whatever, indication that it comes from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the public. But golly, I mean, if we thought that, that radars were black

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hole before all of this, Oh, I got to imagine they’re going to become an even bigger black hole after.

⏹️ ▶️ John But like I said, they’re not doing this just for their health. They really believe that they’re going to get, I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, they have in 10, 9, 3, and 4, found things that they wouldn’t have found otherwise

⏹️ ▶️ John with the developer stuff. With developers using it, they really believe that this is the only

⏹️ ▶️ John way and the best way to get to find the bugs that they’re just not finding when just developers are using it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not going to let it just all sit in a bucket. The whole point of this is that they’re, I mean, it’s a little bit like sifting for

⏹️ ▶️ John gold, but they’re going to sift. Like, they’re not just going to let it all sit there. They’re going to sift for that gold and hope to find

⏹️ ▶️ John the one or two weird things of someone with an unexpected configuration, and they’re going to look for the big ones. Crashers, data

⏹️ ▶️ John loss, kernel panics, all that good stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, right. And then my final question, not because I would actually advocate you giving advice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of this capacity, but I know we’re going to get a million emails. I’ve already seen quite a few tweets.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you were to recommend a backup strategy that is the minimum viable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey backup strategy in order to safely install a Yosemite beta. What do you think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would be in broad strokes?

⏹️ ▶️ John A SuperDuper or a Time Machine backup to a different drive, I think, is what you have to

⏹️ ▶️ John protect yourself from is some catastrophic stuff. Say there’s a problem in the install

⏹️ ▶️ John process. Like it doesn’t even install successfully, now your disk is unbootable. You shouldn’t be sad because you just clone

⏹️ ▶️ John that entire disk to SuperDuper, and you just take out the bad disk, boot off the SuperDuper disk, immediately cloned

⏹️ ▶️ John from the super duper just back on top of the bad disk and you’re okay but here’s the other thing that I could not fit in a tweet

⏹️ ▶️ John that people should understand there is still a risk even if you install beta

⏹️ ▶️ John and it seems to work fine for a while and you use if you use it as your main machine that if there’s some sort of problem like

⏹️ ▶️ John oh I used it for like a week and everything was fine but then there was some kind of bug and the thing became unbootable and I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know what to do even if you have a super duper backup from a week ago there’s a week’s worth of

⏹️ ▶️ John work and maybe it’s just a day’s worth of work or an hour’s worth There’s always a chance of data loss if you did something

⏹️ ▶️ John somewhere and that stuff is not backed up. And people can be just as pissed. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, but I wrote 2,000 words of an article yesterday. You tell me those 2,000 words are gone?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, oh, well, you just did a backup yesterday. You should be fine. No, that was a whole day’s worth of work. People are pissed

⏹️ ▶️ John not in proportion to the amount of data they lose. It’s just an emotional thing, like, oh, that was super important.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or they’ll restore from backup and go, oh, I didn’t realize that I was actually writing that draft locally in my email

⏹️ ▶️ John client, and that draft is gone. Or you can lose data

⏹️ ▶️ John even when you have a backup, because if you keep using the computer, you’re producing new data. And if you’re not backing up everything,

⏹️ ▶️ John you produce every second, and nobody could possibly be backing up stuff every second. I mean, this is a learning lesson.

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess maybe we should just let people go ahead, learn what backups are about. If there is no such thing as,

⏹️ ▶️ John I am instantly backed up all the time, and I never lose any data, not yet, anyway. I mean, maybe with some

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy redundant real-time synchronous RAID system or something, you could have

⏹️ ▶️ John some chance of zero data loss. Even that, you

⏹️ ▶️ John still could end up in a situation where it’s consistent on disk, but it’s still meaningless because something was in

⏹️ ▶️ John the middle of doing something when the kernel panicked. Anyway, yeah, so super-duper

⏹️ ▶️ John time machine, and you’re still not entirely protected. You’re never entirely protected. even if you’re using a non beta

⏹️ ▶️ John OS, when you’re working, if something bad happens and the whole disc goes corrupt or you have a hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John failure, you’re gonna lose everything that happened between your last backup and now, and nobody

⏹️ ▶️ John backs up every three seconds, so that’s life.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. What else is good these days, Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Better than not backing up, it is Igloo. Man, I wish Backlit was sponsoring this week. This would be perfect.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But instead, it’s Igloo, and they’re pretty cool too. So Igloo is the intranet you will actually like.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I mean, so first of all, they have something important here, but let me just tell you quickly because they didn’t include this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Intranets are terrible usually, theirs is good. They have all these great features. It’s built by people who care,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s saying a lot for an intranet company. That’s unusual in that market.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Igloo’s fantastic and it’s free for up to 10 people, so you should check it out. Now, they have a super exciting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco release coming this summer called unicorn. We’ve talked about unicorn on the show before,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has a ton of new features. But the best is integrated task management that will change how you stand track

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with your work. A loo task can be assigned in different ways depending on the work you’re doing. So one of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coolest ways to use tasks is you can create them directly on your content. So why do you need this?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let’s say when requesting updates on a graphic or a text correction on a Word document, you can create

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these tasks right on your content. So you and your team stay up to date on what has to be done next. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all right there in one place. When you’re viewing content, even if it’s a blog, event or forum topic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inside your igloo, because it supports all those cool things. These tasks are right there informing everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if all tasks have been completed, or something needs additional work. You can assign these tasks to yourself or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a teammate, you can comment on these tasks, you can keep all your changes all in one place. And when you’re the one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who’s been assigned a task, first of all, I’m sorry, but all your tasks show up in a unified dashboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco within your igloo. As far as I know, they don’t have to stay out in parking lot outside. They are all in a unified

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dashboard with due dates clearly marked, making it super simple to manage your day to day work and clarify

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your priorities. Unicorn is a free update for all igloo customers coming this summer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once again, igloo is awesome. They’re an intranet it’s free for up to 10 people check it out. Learn more at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco igloo slash ATP. Thank you very much to igloo software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once again for sponsoring our show. They’re really good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Anything else on the Yosemite beta? John, you said you installed it, so… Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John has to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco install it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, I don’t have to because I’m on the dev builds. That’s one of the first tidbits. Like, we discussed this way back

⏹️ ▶️ John when we were first discussing the beta. I think it was after W3C, and I said, well, they’re going to do betas, but I’m sure that the developer

⏹️ ▶️ John releases are, you know, there’s going to be a couple of betas, like, milestone-wise, but

⏹️ ▶️ John in between there, there’s going to be dev releases. And that is the case. Dev seeds will, if you are in the Mac developer program,

⏹️ ▶️ John they will continue to release seeds of Yosemite every two weeks or so. They’re going to have bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John gaps for the beta, mostly because you don’t expect regular users to be subject to that kind of churn. Regular

⏹️ ▶️ John users don’t want to, even just doing through software update, don’t want to update their OS with that frequency. So

⏹️ ▶️ John the public betas are going to be sort of milestone releases. And in between there, there’s going to be smaller releases of developer previews,

⏹️ ▶️ John which means, essentially, the public betas may not necessarily correspond to any particular dev release. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John believe that is actually the case with the public beta. We’re on developer preview release 4. I can tell you that

⏹️ ▶️ John developer preview release 4 is different than the public beta, and developer preview release 3 I think was

⏹️ ▶️ John also a different build. So anyway, those are two different trains all pulling from the same

⏹️ ▶️ John source repository, but that is a difference in the program. So developers, you’re not really

⏹️ ▶️ John missing anything by not being in the public beta other than seeing that experience. The reason I’m doing it is not for

⏹️ ▶️ John development reasons, I’m not a developer, but for journalistic purposes just to see like what is this experience like and what is

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple doing there. They have a big FAQ on the thing and interestingly in the FAQ I always

⏹️ ▶️ John wondered how they were going to handle this like how do you like come on and do a beta thing and if you

⏹️ ▶️ John want you know if you decide you don’t want it what are they going to tell them like oh I tried this beta I don’t like it I

⏹️ ▶️ John want to go back to my old thing that’s in the FAQ it says if you need help returning your Mac to a shipping version of OS 10

⏹️ ▶️ John and restoring from your time machine backup which they told you to do earlier, you can call Apple care to speak to a support

⏹️ ▶️ John specialist or reference online documentation. So they’re basically saying, look, if you join this program,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you decide you want to go back and you can’t figure out how call Apple care. And I suppose that’s subject to the same Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John care rules as everything else, like you get whatever 90 days free and after that they charge you but I suppose

⏹️ ▶️ John you could also show up at an Apple store and say, Hey, I joined this Yosemite beta, and I don’t want any more.

⏹️ ▶️ John Put me back to Mavericks. And then a lot of people are going to have that conversation. and the person on the phone

⏹️ ▶️ John or at the Genius Bar is gonna say, okay, so where’s your backup? And you’re gonna go, my what? And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s gonna be an awkward conversation. I guess that’s what these guys get paid for. But it’s interesting that Apple is essentially saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John yep, we’re here for you. If you wanna do

⏹️ ▶️ John this really complicated thing and you wanna bail out of it, they also go on to say, but really,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you just wanna wait a little bit longer, eventually Yosemite will be a shipping version of OS X and you’ll be fine. And that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John final interesting point I wanted to make is that Apple is explicitly promising that if you get this beta,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you just continue to run software update, you will update right through to the retail version, which

⏹️ ▶️ John I tweeted about that. And people are like, oh, you’ve always been able to do that. More or less, most of

⏹️ ▶️ John the time, you’ve been able to, if not software update to the release version, certainly install on top to get the release

⏹️ ▶️ John version. But this is the first time that I can recall that Apple is explicitly

⏹️ ▶️ John saying, This train of pre-release software

⏹️ ▶️ John will lead right into the release software. It’s completely officially supported. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not like you can get away with it and it will probably work, but you might have some weird PLIST files left

⏹️ ▶️ John over. This is a configuration that Apple is supporting and that they’re going to presumably test and make sure it really works so

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no weird leftover turds from the pre-release builds that screw with the release one.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that is. Is that a technical term? That’s what people are afraid of, Some prefs file

⏹️ ▶️ John will have changed format, but it won’t rewrite itself when you install like the retail version of the OS So you’ll be left

⏹️ ▶️ John with the pref file from the last build last dev build and every time that launches it’ll crash because you know

⏹️ ▶️ John Some crappy thing like that that is eminently solvable But just never came up in Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John testing because they never they didn’t really support you taking The last dev build and then trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to install the retail on top of it without like first erasing it or whatever But here they’re there. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John giving it their blessing and saying you’ll be fine which I mean they have to do obviously you’re not going to tell these people okay now erase

⏹️ ▶️ John your disc and you know or restore from your backup and install the retail they just want people to

⏹️ ▶️ John get the beta and just keep doing software update and that will carry them right through to the release builds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s convenient I still don’t really get the motivation for installing a beta os like on on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my like on my phone when I was a developer for that and that made sense like I still now I am a developer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the phone again and I still haven’t installed the ios 8 beta I keep planning on installing the 8 Beta 4,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I keep having other more important things to do. But on the Mac, I would never install a Beta

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OS on my Mac. That’s where I get my work done.

⏹️ ▶️ John You would if you were trying to add handoff to Overcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I wouldn’t even install it on my main Mac. I would install it on a laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, I know. Developers have lots of spare Macs or whatever. Most

⏹️ ▶️ John people only have one Mac that is their main Mac. That’s the whole thing. That’s why I don’t think most people are going to have backups.

⏹️ ▶️ John Installing you’re supporting me my spare Mac how many

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Macs you think I have in this house? They’re like trees

⏹️ ▶️ John right of course developers developers have a million of them and hoarders like me have a million You

⏹️ ▶️ John just never throw them out or sell them, but regular people don’t act that way So I mean I don’t think this is

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna be lots and lots of spare Macs or if you know if they did have spare Macs the spare ones are gonna be old They’d be like I’m not gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John install on the old one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right or the spare Macs exist for some purpose

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the kids computer or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or it’s you know It’s the it’s the Mac mini on the TV or something like that or that’s a there’s a server in the house So it’s something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually there’s some kind of purpose for people to have multiple computers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So fun fact when I was a kid I don’t remember how old I was but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like 12 or something like that Dad brought brought home a box full

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of three and a half inch diskettes from work I want to say it was like 30 of them or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and sure enough That was the OS to warp beta which I installed from three and a half inch disks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which took like a day and a half and that crap was awesome. Oh man,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Warp was great. I miss those days. Me and Guy English, I think we’re the only ones that miss it, but I miss it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re the only ones who ever used it. Also true. That and a bunch of ATMs. That was it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, is that it? We good?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think so. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Hover,,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Igloo. And we will see you all next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental. John didn’t do any research,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accidental, it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was accidental. And you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ John at And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anti-Marco-Armen-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Syracuse,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s accidental, they didn’t mean

⏹️ ▶️ John to Did you guys install the new iTunes yet?

⏹️ ▶️ John Nope. No.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why would I do that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, seriously.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s got a nice icon. It’s nice and red.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have been beta testing some new headphones. Of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey course you have.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re the rich person headphone rental service. I wouldn’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John they would have a thing like that, but the whole thing about being a rich person is you don’t rent the headphones you just buy them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well these headphones require a special amp and to buy them both I’m sure they do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no but like they like they like regular amps don’t even like these headphones are so ridiculous that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a regular amp doesn’t have enough power to power them unless you connect to the speaker terminals of a speaker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amp my

⏹️ ▶️ John goodness is that the one I read your big headphone post and you said you mentioned one of the headphones that you didn’t that didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have the power is this a new different pair of crazy Headphones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this isn’t this is not mentioned in that pose. This is the pair I mentioned the footer saying I would love to try these sometime

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I don’t know I don’t know where I could try them without just buying them

⏹️ ▶️ John and then email people emailed you and say this Service rents them

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly And and so I and but you know to buy the headphones and the amp would be like three thousand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dollars And so that’s not and you pretty much can’t try them in person anywhere this you know You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco walk into a Best Buy. They don’t they don’t have things that are this specialized You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John know do

⏹️ ▶️ John they come with these single directional oxygen free? crystal enhanced cables or no?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No that’s most of that crap is what the aftermarket people and the hobbyists do. The ones that come

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stock even on the fanciest cables or even the fanciest headphones the stock cables are like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty low on the BS meter. Like you know they they’re balanced cables which means they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco four pins instead of three and they use giant XLR plugs and that that’s that’s to provide some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco benefit. I’m not quite sure on the on the rationale there but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so these headphones any good I mean come on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re amazing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s yeah they’re they’re shockingly good yeah that’s that’s that’s the gist of it but I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t I’m not crazy about the amp it’s giant and the volume knob

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s it’s one of these things this is really ridiculous I feel bad for even talking about this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather than a typical pot on a volume knob because just like they I believe they’re usually just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a variable resistor right is that Potentiometer,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what pot is short for,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Yeah. Well, headphone nerds don’t like regular volume knob

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pots because apparently they’re imprecise, and they maybe affect the sound

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quality somehow. And in some other ways, there’s issues with channel imbalance,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where the left channel might get slightly lower than the right at certain positions on the knob, just because of, I guess, the way they’re made, or their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quality levels, whatever. And so the volume knob on this fancy amp is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like a notched selector. it turns this giant rod that goes through the entire length

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the amp and it goes to this tremendous drum in the back where each notch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has a pair of resistors like regular resistors and it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like turning it’s like a giant like knife switch almost that turns between these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pairs of resistors to just alternate so like there is there is no setting like between notch one and two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s just this giant drum of all these different resistors for all the different volume settings

⏹️ ▶️ John that is crazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah it’s pretty funny I mean it’s like it’s funny how how crazy this is if anybody want in the chat wants to look up what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m talking about I’m talking about the hi-fi man ef6 amp and the he6

⏹️ ▶️ Marco orthodynamic headphones

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s a question for your crazy audiophile people which is just Marco here but he can relay

⏹️ ▶️ John it if you just know the answer what is the general accepted wisdom about

⏹️ ▶️ John headphones versus speakers like if you want like the best possible whatever the hell

⏹️ ▶️ John they their definition of best is I can assume they’re gonna say most accurate or whatever listening experience is it better to have

⏹️ ▶️ John if you have unlimited funds to build like the building you’re gonna have this listening experience in right just unlimited

⏹️ ▶️ John funds it’s headphones the way to go or speakers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I’m not familiar enough with the speaker world to say I can at least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say that in the headphone world I mean one of the big differences is like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really, really nice headphones. Like the most of what people would consider the best headphones in the world

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cost about 1500 bucks or less. I’m pretty sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nobody in the speaker world would say that any of the best speakers in the world are below like 10 grand.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean it’s a pretty… it’s a giant price difference and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that’s one of the big reasons why people like high-end headphones so much because they’re so much more accessible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know high-end speakers are basically as expensive as cars. Like, they’re insane. Or more,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or more, yeah. I’m just asking because there was like some, you know. Because there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John arguments two ways. As people are pointing out in the chat room, the speaker argument is that no headphone is ever going to give you

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of that whole body bass feeling that you get sitting in front of a speaker that has, you know, a powerful

⏹️ ▶️ John speaker that has bass, right? Like, it’s not going to be a full body experience. It’s just happening on your ears. But on the other hand,

⏹️ ▶️ John you would think all the things they can screw up the sound in a speaker as it moves around the room and again I’m saying you can

⏹️ ▶️ John build the room you want like you have unlimited funds right build it However, you want but all all the things that could go

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong there it’s like we can cut out all the middlemen and just get like I can put a Thing right

⏹️ ▶️ John next to your ear and I don’t have to drive it with a lot of power It’s right next to your ear so I can get you know super accurate or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John So you that that’s the argument for headphones is like we cut out all that crap that all the things all

⏹️ ▶️ John the potential Problems of a sound and in a non ideal situation like you’re not gonna build a building for your

⏹️ ▶️ John speakers You have to put them in the room that you have. And in that case, maybe you’re better off with headphones because we don’t have to worry about all this

⏹️ ▶️ John these the sound bouncing around all over the place.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. And my dad is a pretty big stereo nut, and he has a really nice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey setup, which is not limited to vinyl. Before I get a million emails, he has a fancy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey CD player as well. But anyway, he has a really nice setup with really nice speakers. And I don’t even want to think about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how much it all cost. But he swears. And as I’ve sworn to Marco many times,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the best speakers he’s ever heard are some custom molded

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in-ear monitors that he got from ultimate ears that are literally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he had had the molded for the shape of his ear canal. And I know Marco that you swear that you can’t use them and they’re uncomfortable and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey blah, blah, blah. But I would imagine based on the not custom molded ultimate ears

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I have, which are far and away, those best speakers I’ve ever heard, I can only,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can only imagine how amazing these things are. So to me I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guess that an in-ear monitor or something like it would probably be the best that you can get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Most people who have who are experts in the field and have tried in-ear monitors and really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fancy headphones Do not share that opinion that your monitors are very well respected. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they People love them. No question. However

⏹️ ▶️ Marco People love full-size headphones better and like the experts who review like all at the top everything like when this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a pretty small field really, but in your monitor, I mean, and so I can’t say, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I, as Casey said, I can’t really wear them. They hurt my ears too much. Even the ones that everyone says are more comfortable and I’ve never tried

⏹️ ▶️ Marco custom. Yes, please don’t email me, but I’m very happy with full-size headphones instead.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think, you know, it’s, it probably has just a lot to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do, you know, John, I think you’re right. Like headphones can do a lot that that speakers can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do easily. It’s it is all about the room. for me to build an audio listening

⏹️ ▶️ Marco room with speakers that would be the same quality I’m getting from from my headphones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that cost a thousand bucks or less often and I granted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know that sounds ridiculous to pay even that much for headphones I’m very aware of that and I don’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody to do that but if you’re really into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high quality music it’s really a pretty amazing value compared to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco speakers. And it’s just in practice. Like I’m usually listening while I’m at my computer working.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s harder to do that with speakers. It’s harder to arrange the room. You need much larger things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then the rest of the house hears whatever you’re listening to, and you hear the rest of the house. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just so much more practical, and it seals

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you in. And so you’re able to concentrate on things, whether that’s the music or something else

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or both.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting that full body bass. You’re not. Well, but it’s yeah it depends what you like. Like I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need full body bass. I think the other people like my neighbors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the rest of my family and my dog probably wouldn’t appreciate the full body bass either.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Headphones are a really fantastic way to immerse yourself in extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high quality music for not that much money and you know you can go pretty high but even like what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people consider the best headphones in the world are about $5,000 and even those almost no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco headphone nerds even go to that level that’s extremely

⏹️ ▶️ John rare the in-ear ones like that’s even more cutting out the middle man

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like let’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just get right down in there

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right

⏹️ ▶️ John next to the eardrum it’s like you know the next step is cut out the eardrum will go right to the nerves

⏹️ ▶️ John you know but like the limitation there I bet is when you get that close now you’re limited by

⏹️ ▶️ John what kind of machinery to move air can you fit in someone’s ear.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes, that’s absolutely true.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so that’s why I would imagine that the like the sweet spot for accuracy

⏹️ ▶️ John versus cutting out the middleman is probably not shoved into your ear. But you know, who knows? I don’t know. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have fancy headphones.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so let’s talk about something a little more accessible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco M3s. Yeah, let’s get I wish

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just put a link in the chat and we’ll have it in the show notes. John, do you remember this tweet that you tweeted at me?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t a couple of days ago.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, I do. Did you get a PlayStation three or four?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I borrowed a PlayStation three. Oh, exciting. And I borrowed a PlayStation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey three specifically to play Journey. Whoo. And I have played Journey.

⏹️ ▶️ John What? And were you were you spoiled before you played? Did you know anything about it besides that it’s called Journey?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Not really. I knew it had something to do with a scarf, and that was about the extent of it.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right. That’s that’s a reasonable at this point, that’s a reasonable spoiler for it. now. Was your

⏹️ ▶️ John PlayStation connected online when you played it? Yes. And did you know that

⏹️ ▶️ John it should be, or was that just an accident of…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so I guess I fibbed. I did know that there was potential that I would run into other people in that I may

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or may not be able to interact with them. Or if I could, I couldn’t use text

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or anything in order to do so. Because I think I may have listened to the Hypercritical, or I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey assuming it was a Hypercritical, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John my memory’s so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re spoiled, you’re spoiled, but you didn’t. But you’re you’re a spoiler. Freeness is powered by apathy.

⏹️ ▶️ John You have heard spoilers, but you didn’t care at the time.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So you’ve since forgotten them. Yes, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey both absolutely correct. So let me start by saying that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting Journey onto this PlayStation was so annoying that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is a testament to how much I love you, that I even played the game.

⏹️ ▶️ John See, if you had told me you were doing this, I would have told you what I told Marco to do, which is to buy a code

⏹️ ▶️ John on Amazon for PlayStation points, so you don’t have to give Sony your credit card. Presumably

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon already has your credit card and you’re comfortable with that. And then you get a digital code and then enter that

⏹️ ▶️ John code. Annoyingly, yes, but if that’s the, you know, the hang-up that you don’t want to do that. And it’s super annoying to even enter your credit

⏹️ ▶️ John card in the PlayStation thing anyway, so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, it’s funny you bring that up, John, because here’s my experience plugging in this PlayStation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and trying to use it. Again, it’s a PlayStation 3. It’s actually one I borrowed from my parents because my parents got it way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey back when, when they wanted a Blu-ray player and at the time it was basically the cheapest Blu-ray player you could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve been keeping this for me all this time that your parents have this PlayStation just sitting there. Yep, that’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it was a first-gen one? That’s usually even worse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, it was very early on. I don’t know anything about PlayStation 3s or really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey video games at all, but I know for fact that this was bought pretty darn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John early. You

⏹️ ▶️ John might have one with hardware PlayStation 2 support. That is actually a rare and wonderful

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that you probably don’t care about but is significant.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t care. I understand the words you’re saying but I have no idea why that’s awesome. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the point is I plug it in. Well, the first problem I had was when I borrowed it from mom and dad, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey give me controllers and I kind of forgot to ask for them. So I had to

⏹️ ▶️ John wait a few days. It’s going to make it hard to do anything. You play with a Bluetooth remote.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had to wait a few days until I actually had the DVD remote comically, which is how I was playing the Blu-ray

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I made that tweet about how loud it was. But anyways…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Please tell me you didn’t play Journey with the DVD remote. No, no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, no, no, no. So anyways, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eventually got a couple of controllers from them and I knew enough to know that I needed to plug them in via USB

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I was pretty sure that I could use them even though they were dead while the USB cord was plugged in, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was fine. Okay, whatever. So the first thing I do when I turn on the PlayStation, once I had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bothered to connect it to the internet. Of course, I need to do a system update.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That took, I don’t remember, something like half an hour, an hour. Fine. So then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I need to go to the PlayStation store, I assume, so I can buy Journey. Fine. Go to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey PlayStation store. Well, you need to do another update. Are you freaking kidding me? I just did a system. No, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to do a store update. Okay. Well, now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have to download this 65 meg update and install it. That took easily an hour and a half to two hours.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No idea why it was connected via Ethernet, via Mocha Bridge and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then all the way up to the router. I have 7535 Internet. I have no idea what the the bad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey piece in this chain was.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like you’re reliving 2006 all over again. Yep. You can go back in time and look at all the

⏹️ ▶️ John the web comics that were playing about this exact thing. Yeah. PlayStation three is an update machine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. So so like two or three hours after I connect the PlayStation to the internet,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I should say before I connected it to the internet, it did a lot more stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and was a lot more fiddly than I wanted, but it worked. I plugged it, I put a Blu-ray in the drive,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it played it and I was happy, but then I connected it to the internet and all hell broke

⏹️ ▶️ Casey loose. So anyway, so I do the system update that takes like an half an hour, an hour. I do the store update that takes an hour

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or two. Then I go to purchase journey. I’m all excited with myself and,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m going to purchase it. And it says, OK, you are going to pay with such and such credit card,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which was my parents credit card. Well, I don’t want to do that. No, I don’t want to do that. So it says, OK,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well, you can’t buy the game.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, see again, if you had talked to me first and told me you’re doing it, I would have told you you can buy Journey on an optical

⏹️ ▶️ John disc and then you would have stuck it into the drive and started playing it. Well, I probably would have done update first, but still, it would

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey have been a disc.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That would have ruined the surprise, though. So here I am, Ignoramus extraordinaire, at least in this capacity.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get it to allow me to put in my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey own Freaking credit card number so eventually I give up and ask Aaron who is sitting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey behind me to go ahead and just Google How the F do you change your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey credit card number in the PlayStation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John store?

⏹️ ▶️ John Why is that the the fallback frustration? Why don’t you just buy it and give your parents 15 bucks? You’re

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see them. Well in that well, okay. That was the other thing. I didn’t mention that that I agree But whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the credit card number was, which I called my dad and confirmed was the correct number, he indicated,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or the PlayStation would not accept, which might have been an expiration date issue. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I couldn’t even change that. So I didn’t know what to do. Eventually I try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get into, or I find that I need to go into like my account or dad’s account, I guess I should say, go into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey his like account settings and billing settings. Well, even though I’m already logged in as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my dad and it’s happy with that, when I go to go to the billing settings, it says, what’s your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey password? So I enter the password that my dad has given to me. Doesn’t accept it. He goes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the website. This is from his house. I’m at my house. He goes to the website and enters the exact same

⏹️ ▶️ Casey password. Oh, everything works magically. So we do that whole dance for like half an hour, trying to figure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out how the crap to get me in to the point that I can just update my payment.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All I want to do is give somebody $15 and I am going through

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least half an hour to an hour of pain to do that So eventually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we figure it out Eventually I can buy journey Eventually it downloads and I think did so quicker

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than the damn store update even though journey was like half a gig in the store Update was 50 or 60 megs.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is by the way as of why I recommend for everyone I tell to play journey Dedicated day to installing it

⏹️ ▶️ John do not play it on the same day that you download just take a day Like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and again, this was all happened. So this was all happening last night. I didn’t know if I would have time to do all this tonight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have a serious urgency because I really wanted to talk about it today because I figured it would be a little bit of a Shorter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show I am freaking out Also because I’m high-strung and ridiculous. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway eventually, I finally get to the point that I can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey start journey and And I played it and I liked it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s it. No, I do have other thoughts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Thanks everyone, we’ll see you next

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week. No, I do have other thoughts.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I totally recommend spending a day. And the reason I recommend people take a day is not so much because

⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, the PlayStation always takes a day to install anything. It’s because the people who I’m telling to play Journey, if they

⏹️ ▶️ John haven’t already played it, they’re probably either not gamers or don’t have a PlayStation 3, which means they’re which means they’re gonna have

⏹️ ▶️ John to either borrow one, which is worse when it’s like someone else’s account, and as you’ve encountered, it’s your dad’s account. Imagine it was

⏹️ ▶️ John someone’s account who you weren’t related to, you had to deal with all those issues. If you have a PlayStation and

⏹️ ▶️ John use it all the time, yeah, it still does annoying updates, and still frequently when you turn it on, it wants to do an update, but you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have like 17 of them queued up. Like my PlayStation 3 right now is completely up to date with everything. If I wanted to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John a game on the PlayStation Store, I go right into the store, I buy it, everything’s all set up, I have money in my PlayStation account,

⏹️ ▶️ John boom, boom, boom, wait for the download, which usually doesn’t take that long and play. So the experience

⏹️ ▶️ John for people who have and use a PlayStation 3 all the time, still not ideal, but it’s much

⏹️ ▶️ John better than it used to be. To give an example, way back in the early days, the PlayStation 3 couldn’t even do background downloads.

⏹️ ▶️ John So your thing would be paralyzed by downloading something. Oh, just like the store was

⏹️ ▶️ John yesterday? Well, that’s like more of an update, but I’m saying like you just buy a game. It’s like, while it’s downloading the game,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to play something else. It’d be like, nope, you’re going to sit here and look at a progress bar. So things have gotten better,

⏹️ ▶️ John and PlayStation 4 is even better in that you can start playing the game before it even downloads, which is one of the big features they tout.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because they have learned their lesson, essentially. All the things you complained about on the PlayStation 3, every one of those has something

⏹️ ▶️ John addressing it in the PlayStation 4 to make it not be that terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Does it still have a giant, loud fan all the time?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, the fan is so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah. Oh, it’s so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John The

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey fans,

⏹️ ▶️ John even on the slim one,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey they’re bad. And I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ John tried the current model, which is the one even smaller than the slim. But people say on that one, the fan is better,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you can hear the optical drive more, which is not a problem with downloaded games, but they made it so

⏹️ ▶️ John thin, like the sound of the little mechanism is loud. Yeah, all these things are not great noise-wise.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I mean, at least the update issues are still a problem in that there are frequent

⏹️ ▶️ John updates. And no matter how smooth you make the update process, no matter how quickly it downloads, if you’re doing an OS-level update,

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to reboot the thing. And it’s frustrating if those come out more frequently than you play.

⏹️ ▶️ John Essentially, every time you turn on your PlayStation 3, there will be an update. Yep,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sure is for me. And that’s what happened with this one is my, uh, my parents definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use the PlayStation as a Blu-ray player. And to my knowledge, when it’s in their own house,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s connected either via ethernet or their, or their wifi, but they never do things like go to the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey store, for example, to buy anything, the PlayStation store. So you’re exactly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. That in my case, I was set up for complete and utter pain and suffering

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because they don’t do the sorts of things that I was trying to do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even early on there was updates just to the blu-ray player functionality, right? I mean that sort of settled down and

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you didn’t keep adding updates that but like in general I like I would rather have more frequent small updates

⏹️ ▶️ John than have to wait for like a two-hour thing every once in a while Because I don’t play the games on it that often

⏹️ ▶️ John And these days I don’t even use it for it’s like Media streaming capabilities because I have all sorts of other solutions mostly involving

⏹️ ▶️ John the Synology to do my media streaming I don’t mind when I turn it on if there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John an update I factor it into the time I’m gonna play I don’t say okay I’m gonna dedicate a half an hour for playing

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know I assume there’s gonna be an update because the last time I turn The thing on was like you know three weeks ago I would

⏹️ ▶️ John I’d rather have them update the software than just leave me but for example my Tevo I know there’s a new version of the Tevo software

⏹️ ▶️ John out, but the update I keep going You know check for updates like they roll it out slowly. I want the update now, so

⏹️ ▶️ John I like software updates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is one of those things that like I think contributes substantially to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game consoles now being so unappealing to the mass market. Like, so, cause it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, in order to really enjoy a game console, you have to be extremely dedicated to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is one of the reasons they’ve lost casual gaming as like a main market. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, if you’re a casual gamer, the experience of using a modern game console sucks way worse than if you use it all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I know, but like, it’s still way better than a PC, which is like, you know, it’s all a spectrum.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, sure, but you know, compare it to like, In the olden days, if you had an NES or a Genesis, you just turn it on and you start playing the game.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you haven’t turned it on in four months, it doesn’t matter. It just starts up. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing is, like, there’s benefits to offset that. And the benefits are that if you bought an original PlayStation 3,

⏹️ ▶️ John when you first got it, it was crappy and it got better over time through software updates. It could do more things,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And it was, you know, like that, that is a phenomenon. When you got your NES, it didn’t get any new capabilities two years down the line.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whereas you got your PlayStation, it did get better over time. So that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true. What I got, I got the memory pack thing for the N64. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not an NES. N64 and that’s a hardware upgrade not a software upgrade, but yeah, like I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco mean

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just being silly and the n64 had no fans and And the controllers didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dig into your hands oddly.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s debatable All right, so let’s hear your

⏹️ ▶️ John your thoughts on the game Do not listen to this section

⏹️ ▶️ John of the after dark if you have not played journey Because we will spoil the spoil the entire game for you all journey spoiler

⏹️ ▶️ John conditions apply Marco is allowed to listen because A, he doesn’t care, and B, he’s seen his wife play it a thousand times by now.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Casey and I have both played it. But if you have not played Journey, do not listen to this part of the After Dark.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so the first impression I had, well, let me back up just a smidge. I thought it was like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some sort of side-scroller, which I’m sure is absolutely…

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m glad you thought that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know that’s extremely ignorant of me, but I just really don’t care about these sorts of things.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would rather have you be ignorant. I wish you knew nothing about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. So the first couple of impressions I had, well, the first thing I wrote

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down was that the soundtrack was good. And then by the end of the game,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I upgraded it to incredible because I thought the soundtrack was unbelievable.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is. You can buy it on iTunes. It is one of the best video game soundtracks ever made. Austin Wintory is

⏹️ ▶️ John amazing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was it was really incredibly, incredibly good. The second thing I had written down and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was basically my second impression was that it was visually very big, especially when you thought it was going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a side-scroller. The world in which you play is quite

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a bit larger than I had expected it to be.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really was impressed by that. The other thing was,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey within about five or ten minutes, I started seeing other people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wasn’t, I wasn’t a hundred percent sure if those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey were, what is it? What is the term NPCs or, um, or actual humans.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I thought they were humans, but the way the one or two people I’d seen, I,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they behaved in such a way that I, I couldn’t really tell. And so most

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the game, I was having this debate with myself, whether or not they were actual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people on the other end of those characters.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this is despite the fact that you knew that there was a possibility you could see other people in the game.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes. And so I thought like the background

⏹️ ▶️ Casey knowledge I had made me think these were actually people. But I tried to look at it objectively.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And there was at first there was nothing that I saw that convinced me that this was a human being.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think people who don’t play games a lot have much more faith in computer controlled players than

⏹️ ▶️ John I do. I think that anyone who plays video games all the time can immediately distinguish a human from

⏹️ ▶️ John an AI because AIs are so terrible in games.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s been a long time since I’ve played these sorts of games, but in any case, so I went

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through, I don’t know, the first, I’ll call it level, which I don’t mean that dismissively,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I went through the first level or two and eventually I got, well, firstly, I realized

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that this was a puzzle game. And to me, having played Monument Valley before this, it felt

⏹️ ▶️ Casey vaguely similar to Monument Valley, although clearly a very, very, very different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey animal. And again, I don’t mean that to be offensive. I apologize to you, John, if that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is, and to anyone else that really likes Journey. But that’s what I thought. I was like, oh, this is kind of like Monument Valley. There’s puzzles.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They’re kind of self-explanatory. I did, by the way, really like that the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey only sort of tutorial or help was occasionally a little outline or kind of overlay the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey controller came up and told you to either push or hold something. Um, but anyway, after

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of stages, levels, what have you, I ended up kind of going through

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a level with somebody and I didn’t pay close enough attention

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to see that when they spoke, if you will, if that symbol

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was the same symbol I saw two or three levels later when I was still kind of playing with somebody.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And what I did find, however, was that I really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wanted to see where this was going and be cooperative. And the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey indication I got from kind of body language, for lack of a better description, was that this other person

⏹️ ▶️ Casey also wanted to play cooperatively. And so there were a couple of levels, like one where you kind of, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God, I don’t even know how to describe it, but there was like a center column and you had to go around different pedestals

⏹️ ▶️ Casey around the outside and you had to climb. I know, I know the level. Okay. And so at one point,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know, look, go ahead, move on. At one point, uh, we kind of got separated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I, and I, I was sad about that. And I, and then it occurred to me,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey why am I sad about this? Like, I have no idea who this person is. I’m not even a hundred percent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey convinced it is a person. I think it’s a person. Your emotion chip was activated. My emotion chip

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had indeed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco activated. It’s because you’re it’s you know what? It’s because your PlayStation has the emotion engine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was the PlayStation 2 exactly he has the ps2 hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Finally I made a reference that you bombed on

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I didn’t bomb on it. It was not the right generation of console.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You were just wrong No, I was saying it was because

⏹️ ▶️ John his we know didn’t establish whether his head harvest that it might have hardware support We never he didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You just can’t be wrong. Exactly. I finally got you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wrong on something. Anyway, let’s concentrate on the facts here, but you’re right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So anyway, so I realized I was kind of sad about it. And then eventually, like a level

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or two later, I wound up being next to another person. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it very well could have been a totally different person. But again, because I wasn’t paying close enough attention to the little symbol that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey came up when they spoke, I had told myself, this is the same person. Oh, my buddy’s back.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I was like all excited about it. I was really happy again. And it just,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey after the game was over, it occurred to me that that is a really peculiar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reaction and emotional investment I got from something that I wasn’t even unequivocally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey convinced was indeed a human being.

⏹️ ▶️ John Matt Stauffer Well, now you can read my Articon journey if you haven’t already.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Jerry Holkins I don’t remember if I have. I want to say I have not, But either way,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was really taken aback by how emotional I got about trying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get through this with my buddy.

⏹️ ▶️ John So when you got to the underground level, were you with somebody or no?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, I believe so, but we got separated for a long time and I don’t know if we finished together or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because as you go on, the levels become sort of more fraught with danger and companionship

⏹️ ▶️ John becomes more important, especially towards the end of the game. It’s like, if you were with someone in the early kind of playing around levels,

⏹️ ▶️ John then, you know, that’s, that’s one thing. But like later on, I feel like it’s more important

⏹️ ▶️ John to be with somebody.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And I got to tell you when those like creepy shooter, kill you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey creature guy things came that scared the piss out of me. And I wasn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m still not sure. Can you like, can, can you get actually killed by these things or does it just take away

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like your ability to fly or whatever?

⏹️ ▶️ John And now you should also listen to the after dark with Tiffany and the

⏹️ ▶️ John the what do you call it? The incomparable episode where we talked about journey because we addressed these very issues. That’s the whole thing about the game

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t know there’s no life meter. There’s no heart. There’s no like well, but your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scarf got smaller,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? But there is no there is no established gameplay mechanic where you are where

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re sure. Can I die? Can I not die? Do I take damage? Does one hit

⏹️ ▶️ John kill me if I, you know, the only thing you have going for you is like if I fall from a height, will I get hurt? And they sort of train you

⏹️ ▶️ John on that early on that you sort of float and you have the ability to fly. So pretty much you’re not going to die from a fall, but

⏹️ ▶️ John everything else is up for grabs and nothing threatens you. And when something does threaten you, the game has not

⏹️ ▶️ John established up front rules that make you confident that you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John how much life do I have or, you know, can can I get hurt or can I die or can I lose

⏹️ ▶️ John my abilities?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And it was it was weird. And I should also go back, I forgot to mention, I was looking at my notes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that developing some sort of language between you and your buddy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is an odd, odd, odd experience. And I’m not sure if we really succeeded in developing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a, you know, mega air quotes language, but it was weird. Like does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just hitting, what is it, circle, to like do a momentary ping, if you will, is that a happy thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that a sad thing? I mash on the circle repeatedly and so I’m like blabbering, is that happy?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that sad? If I do the hold the circle thing and do the like really loud shouty thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that happy

⏹️ ▶️ John or did you figure out how to sit down? You probably saw your companion sit down perhaps at once. Did you figure

⏹️ ▶️ John out how you yourself could sit down

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at like the end of a level?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, anytime.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh no, no, I didn’t know that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So like at this point, if you see someone in the game, chances are good that it’s someone who’s played the game multiple times before and they’re playing it

⏹️ ▶️ John again and they would know how to do that. Uh, that’s something you can do. One of the, one of the, you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have a lot of choices for actions in the game that you can move, you can press your little circle button, you can, you know, you can sing,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can fly. You can also sit, uh, and just, you know, sit next to somebody and hang out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I didn’t know that. So anyway, so I get to the snow area and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey again, the way they, anytime I play a game, which is rare to begin with, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey discovery is how they teach you to play the game, and I feel like Monument Valley is a great example of this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m just, I really, I really enjoy that. And so like with the wind and you have to stand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey behind the little pedestal things, that was really neat because it was hard enough that it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey took me a second to think about what am I going to do here? But it was easy enough that it was pretty quickly obvious,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, duh, you idiot, you have to stand behind these like stone things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Journey is not a puzzle game where you’re going to get stuck. And if you do, like, that’s why I feel bad. Like, if you get stuck and you get

⏹️ ▶️ John frustrated, like, then you’re not, you’re not like the game has to meet you at your level

⏹️ ▶️ John and journey is at a low enough level where there’s not this big expectation of gaming knowledge to get through it because you don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John to interrupt sort of the flow of the game the point of the game is not like a text adventure like you know where you’re going to be stuck

⏹️ ▶️ John on a super hard puzzle and figure out something really obscure to you know like the hitchhiker’s guide text adventure like the whole point

⏹️ ▶️ John of that game this game is supposed to you’re supposed to be able to flow through it and if you get hung up

⏹️ ▶️ John on things that have to do with the game even if it’s the puzzles in the games that’s sort of interrupting the flight. It’s not that

⏹️ ▶️ John type of game. So I’m glad like that’s you’re looking for a little bit of challenge, but I think more of the challenge

⏹️ ▶️ John should be, you know, emotional investment in your relationship with this other thing in the computer and

⏹️ ▶️ John your journey, essentially, like they put it up right in front of you at the beginning of the game. They show you a big freaking mountain with a light coming

⏹️ ▶️ John out of it, and they put a title. It’s pretty clear what you’re doing in the game. Like, that’s the thing I forgot to ask you. When the game started, was it

⏹️ ▶️ John clear to you what you were supposed to be doing in this game?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, with an asterisk at the end. It was clear to me that I wanted to step into the light, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey made me wonder, is this like a post-death journey? Pardon the pun, but…

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, but I remember like, you know, in the beginning of the game, you just start the game up, like it does the title sequence, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess the game is called Journey, so you’re obviously probably going to be going on a journey, right? But other than that, did you know where you were going?

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe not why, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where? I figured I was going towards that light, yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will say, though, is at the various like checkpoints within a level where

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you look at a mural and the like cut scenes where they exposed more of that tapestry looking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing, I totally missed the point of all of that and was not paying close

⏹️ ▶️ Casey attention to either of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Matt Stauffer Well, that’s a shame because they are trying to tell a story. I mean, that’s the other thing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey about- Jaren Holconn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and that’s what I realized late when I’d already missed like two thirds, if not three quarters of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Matt Stauffer Well, I mean, not just the tapestries that you find, but like the cut cutscenes between levels where they show more in tapestry

⏹️ ▶️ John style like that’s that you mentioned earlier that there’s you know they just show you at the very beginning like the control on the screen or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John to tell you how to play there’s no text in this game you don’t notice unless until it’s pointed out to you after that but there

⏹️ ▶️ John is no text which is great for localization but I’m not gonna say that’s the reason they did it but it’s an awesome like extra

⏹️ ▶️ John bonus booyah right nothing to localize but there’s no text in the game everything is explained

⏹️ ▶️ John through I mean there’s no tech you can’t type to people you can only do a little sing with your little symbols that’s not text the cutscenes

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have subtitles, there’s no, no one speaks at any point. The murals tell the stories through pictures, so do

⏹️ ▶️ John the cutscenes, so does everything in the entire game until the very end and the credit sequence.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. And so the one question, well, the other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than can you die or not, um, the quest, the biggest question I had was, does everybody die?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. Why? Just like life, just like life. It’s because everybody dies, Casey. All

⏹️ ▶️ John men are mortal. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s, that’s fair. What a great game.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I mean that’s part of that’s part of that’s part of your journey, right? That’s kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I mean like did did you feel like you had failed at that point? Because I think yes I think that

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that is an intentional and natural feeling because if you are not spoiled and don’t know that this Happens you feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like boy. I’ve been going on this journey. I’ve gone through by the way Did you get through the underground part with your scarf intact or did you get

⏹️ ▶️ John you know bitten?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I definitely got bitten once or twice, but I believe it just took a section of the scarf

⏹️ ▶️ John Were you trying to hide? Was your friend with you? And were you both trying to hide together?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We were trying to hide together for a while. And I think we both made it through. Although

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I definitely had more scarf than he did at the end of it. But it wasn’t very clear to me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the correct mechanism to hide. I just kind of ran away from the little spotlighty thing and hoped

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I was far enough away.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, like, what they try to do with the jump scare in the underground level, like when the thing first comes

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. They want to establish that, you know, I mean, it’s like a little kid, like, why should I be scared of these things? Well, because they

⏹️ ▶️ John jump, they startled you. That’s why you’re supposed to be scared of them. They seem menacing. It’s dark. It’s scary music or whatever. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the evasion mechanism is basically run away from the scary thing. Don’t look at the scary thing. And there is a system, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you go back through it and play it, you can see that they have, they’re activated and become aggressive under certain,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like whatever. But like the whole thing is the jump scare is supposed to be like, we don’t have to explain how this game works to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John Scary things are scary. scary thing. And the two things you have in your head is I’m on a

⏹️ ▶️ John journey. I have to get to this place. Therefore, I know which direction I’m traveling in, but the levels kind of guide you like, look,

⏹️ ▶️ John I came from here. I’m going to their big scary thing is between me and there. I have to get there

⏹️ ▶️ John without big scary thing seeing me. So it’s sort of a hide and seek type game. Right. It is not rocket science. And they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John just trying to sort of at a base level let you let you know what you have to do and let you

⏹️ ▶️ John understand that you want to do that in a way that does not bring you in contact with the thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John just scared you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. So eventually I died and then I followed the light and then I made it through the game.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then the big reveal happens, or what I consider to be the big reveal, which was, and I don’t recall

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the words that they used, you probably do, but these are the people that you encountered while you were playing the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey game. And there were like five or six of them. And that was an aha moment

⏹️ ▶️ Casey insofar as I realized, okay, that was definitely a real person that I had some modicum

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of a emotional bond with or but it was also an aha moment insofar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as, oh, that might not have been my one buddy that I thought I was playing with for most of the game.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That might have been three or four or five or six different people that I was interacting with for most of the game.

⏹️ ▶️ John Its companions met along the way, by the way. And when you see a large number

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco those

⏹️ ▶️ John frequently, frequently, it’s like when they first

⏹️ ▶️ John before you sort of team up with somebody, chances are good that you caught glimpses of other people who you

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t team up with. And a lot of the time when you see a long list of things, it’s not that it was a different

⏹️ ▶️ John person in every single thing, it’s that you encountered many people before you decided to team up

⏹️ ▶️ John or

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco decided

⏹️ ▶️ John that was a thing. Only way to know for sure is to get a look at their little symbols, which do vary from game to

⏹️ ▶️ John game and person to person.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which, yeah, which I realized once I saw that screen. And I started to wonder,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have I seen that same symbol or not? But my memory is so crappy that I couldn’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with certainty whether or not that was the same symbol I’d seen on and off for most of the game.

⏹️ ▶️ John After you died and the screen went white or whatever, did you think the game was over at that point? Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John And after it was clear that the game was not over, what did you think was going on there? I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wasn’t really clear. So here’s the thing. I never had done well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in English class or with movies at looking at deep symbolism. I’m a very surface-level

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of interpreter. And I knew that it was like the big white guys, right? And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean that as a racial statement. I mean, the white, the people dressed in white clothing, didn’t they like kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of save me and shoot me through the tube to like the happy place?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is the worst description

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John ever. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not there’s not deep symbolism here and it’s not complicated. And I don’t think they’re like you can understand

⏹️ ▶️ John this, I think, entirely on a surface emotional level or whatever. Like, I mean, it’s open to interpretation

⏹️ ▶️ John of what’s going on there. Like, I know what I took from it, but like, how did you put it this way? Ignore

⏹️ ▶️ John who cares? Like what you think happened? How did you feel after the game continued

⏹️ ▶️ John after you died?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m happy for the most part that I didn’t actually fail because I knew for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey several reasons, one, I didn’t want to admit to you that I didn’t make it to the end too. I didn’t, I knew I wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have the time to like play it over and try to do better. Um, but also I felt a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gypped because I was like, man, what the hell? I thought that I was actually dead. And now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s like I’m not, which is by and large, a good thing. What the hell? That’s a bit of a bait and switch.

⏹️ ▶️ John Were you with a companion in the snow?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, not at that. In the beginning, yes, but they eventually collapsed before I did.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you were with them going up the big hill. It’s just that they collapsed before you did. Correct. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so when you got into the after part, were they still with you or no? No. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right. So, so you go on. That’s why did you feel and how did you feel as you went through that last part and came to

⏹️ ▶️ John the end of the game? You’re by yourself at that point, I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey guess.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. And I mean, at that point, if memory serves, it’s basically just mashing forward on the analog stick until

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you get to the end. And I, I felt like I was probably supposed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be more into what was actually happening at that point. But it was at this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point that I was starting to reflect on what had just happened in the game. The other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing I will note is, I don’t remember if it was before or after death. I want to say it was after death.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But there’s some point where the screen eventually goes white and you have to keep walking forward for like a freaking hour.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I was really confused whether or not the game had hung,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I was doing the right thing, if I’m just an impatient jerk, or what the crap

⏹️ ▶️ John was

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey going on.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re overthinking it, Casey. You’re overthinking this whole game. I encourage you to play it again in

⏹️ ▶️ John a more mellow environment. It’s not a long play. Well the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pressure, so much pressure. I know how much you think highly of it. I wanted to make sure I got every nuance.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I know that’s the problem with things being hyped up like this or whatever. I mean Tiff had issues

⏹️ ▶️ John on her first playthrough as well anyway. Like there’s, it’s never gonna be

⏹️ ▶️ John for you like it was for me and for a lot of other people. Just because like, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John if you see a movie you never heard anything about and you love it and then everyone hypes it up for like six weeks and then you go see it. Like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna be the same because you’ve heard all these people talking about and everyone hypes it up and your expectations change. And like

⏹️ ▶️ John versus just being like, this is a new game. It just came out today. Let me give it a try and having your socks

⏹️ ▶️ John knocked off. And even if you had played this on day one, like as I said to many people who play it, you

⏹️ ▶️ John only get one chance for a first playthrough of this game. And if you have a first playthrough where you either don’t meet

⏹️ ▶️ John anybody or meet people who come and go, like that’s a big risk now because

⏹️ ▶️ John by now the game has been out for years. And like, you know, there’s chances are good that people are going to be sort of coming and going

⏹️ ▶️ John versus trying to play through it as someone go. Who’s going to stay with

⏹️ ▶️ John you, how well they’re going to do, how much you’re going to bond with them over the gaming experience, and

⏹️ ▶️ John in general, how you’re going to take the whole thing. I can’t expect this

⏹️ ▶️ John game to hit people the same way it hit me because the way I played it and the environment I played it in and my mindset

⏹️ ▶️ John and just the way I take in games, like this is very different than people who don’t play games a lot. You were

⏹️ ▶️ John more cerebral, definitely playing through this game than I was. And I think then

⏹️ ▶️ John if you can get yourself to be less cerebral, you can have a different experience of the game, but you’re never going to have another

⏹️ ▶️ John first experience of the game. So this was your first experience and it was yours.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but I will say I very much like the game. And certainly I was struck by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how emotional I got about being friends with my buddy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that may sound dismissive or condescending. I don’t mean it that way at all. Like I was really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into hanging out with my buddy and I really wanted the two of us as a unit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to get through the game together. And when he or she eventually collapsed in the snow, I was pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sad about it. And I was really happy when I saw that. What did you say?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Companions that you met along the way or something like that. When I saw that new for fact that that was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a person that made me really happy. I definitely really liked the game. I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the best analogy I can make is that I feel the same way about this in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I did about the movie Inception. And if you’ll give me a second to explain, I saw,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John no, hold on. I don’t like that movie. I know. I know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But no, hold on before you jump all over

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco me. This

⏹️ ▶️ Casey coffee reminds me of Starbucks. What I mean by that is I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really like Inception a lot and we can argue another day as to whether or not I should and that’s fine. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey take it as fact that I really like Inception. The The problem I had with Inception was I didn’t see it until

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a year or so, maybe even two years after it came out. And everyone I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey knew was like, Oh my God, Inception is the best movie ever. Well, except you. The Inception is the best

⏹️ ▶️ Casey movie ever. You’ve got to see it. It’s so good. And I was kind of like, Oh, whatever guys, I don’t, I don’t care.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so I actually went into Inception kind of wanting to dislike it, which I did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not do with Journey. Well, despite the fact that I wanted to throw the PlayStation out the window, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I went into journey just kind of wondering what the hype was about. And with both of them, I knew that they were kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey overhyped. But with both of them at the end, I actually really ended up enjoying them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I enjoy journey enough that if I happen to come across a couple hours of spare time, I’d probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey play it again just to see, see it all over and pay a little closer attention to like the murals or tapestries or what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John have you. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say if you do it again, go into it in a less cerebral mindset, go into it more as the sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John emotional sensory experience and worry less about deciphering the plot or worrying about anything like that. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John really, I mean, you got the whole companionship thing, like, that is definitely a big part of this game. You got at least 50%

⏹️ ▶️ John of what the people who make this game are trying to let you experience. The other part is sort of the journey

⏹️ ▶️ John aspect of it, like, that you could get just playing by yourself, even if there was no other players. This is other

⏹️ ▶️ John part of the experience that they’re hoping to bring you through. Um, with the companion

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, speaking of other mechanics you might not have cared about or picked up like the sitting

⏹️ ▶️ John when you were in the snowy bits, uh, and your kind of scarf was freezing and stuff. Did you

⏹️ ▶️ John realize that when you touch each other, you sort of glow and light up and that fights off the cold and it sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of encourages you to huddle together? Or was that mechanic not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey clear? No, no. Well, I knew that you glowed when you were near each other, but I didn’t put two and two together

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the snow section

⏹️ ▶️ John because that, that becomes significant later when you’re going up the hill in that you’re like, uh, if you have

⏹️ ▶️ John established the habit with your buddy of now of essentially physical closeness of like being away to ward

⏹️ ▶️ John off the frost which robs your your scarf is it eventually like it eats away at your scarf and

⏹️ ▶️ John can you know i mean the scarves go away entirely in the final snowy part right uh but just you know the whole freezing

⏹️ ▶️ John texture is encroaching on your outfit if you stay close to each other you can warm each other up and so

⏹️ ▶️ John when you’re going up that final hill with that established pattern you will be huddled up close to each

⏹️ ▶️ John other because that’s what you’ve been been doing for the whole snow levels like, oh, guys, really cold, we need to huddle together, huddle together

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually stops working on that hill. It’s, you know, you eventually just freeze to death and die.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that is more heartbreaking when you have this established sort of physical closeness type of

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that has been, we’ve been saving each other thus far. And now saving each

⏹️ ▶️ John other isn’t working. And you had you had the same thing was you were separate when you saw him go down. It’s like you felt bad about that. But like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it you missed out on that slight small part of the thing. But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John like. Yeah, I would say you would think this is a game that does not reward

⏹️ ▶️ John repeated playthroughs, because what little surprise it has to give you, like solutions to puzzles

⏹️ ▶️ John or just the game itself or the plot, it’s all ruined now, right? You know, everything is going to happen. And yet, as

⏹️ ▶️ John I think Tiff will attest, it does have a playthrough value. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I would I would give it a try. Maybe not immediately. Maybe let it stew for a while. I would definitely buy the soundtrack because

⏹️ ▶️ John if I like video game music, I like video game soundtracks. Even if you don’t, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John throw, pick one or two tracks from the soundtrack, throw them into your random iTunes mix. Uh, see if you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t mind when they come on and hear finally my final question about the game, uh, and faithfully proud of me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, did you watch the credits?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, yes. Ish. I mean, they were on, but I was talking to, um, Aaron and my sister-in-law

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who happened to be over at the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not the right environment. Other people talking. No.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I, I sort of kind of paid attention, but I, I would not say I read them, read them. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John I do not do what faith does. I don’t watch the credits in theater mostly because I want to get out of the theater. Uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s not like these days you have to, because the stupid scene that’s the end of the credits, which drives me nuts and credit ending

⏹️ ▶️ John credits usually aren’t that interesting. But for video games, I always watch the ending credits because video game credits,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, unless it’s just a bunch of words going over black, but even then I’ll see if there’s any video game credits in general

⏹️ ▶️ John are not interactive but an extension of the game experience so

⏹️ ▶️ John next time you finish journey I I encourage you to watch through the entire I mean you

⏹️ ▶️ John must have because you saw the companions met along the way but if you watch the whole I mean it’s it’s usually just like

⏹️ ▶️ John the traditional thing is to show you all the places that you’ve been to make you feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve accomplished something Ocarina of Time is amazingly good at that to show you all the people you’ve met all the places

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve been, the effect you’ve had on the world journey. It shows you all the places you’ve been in reverse order,

⏹️ ▶️ John all of them in different environments with other people in the environment reminding you of the things that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John doing. It’s got great music during the credits. It’s nicely composed with the text. You get to see the names of the

⏹️ ▶️ John handful of people who made this amazing game. And then at the end, you get the campaigns made along the way and a nice transition into

⏹️ ▶️ John the menu again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah, start a new journey or whatever. The one thing that I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to say that I’d forgotten, which occurred to me when you mentioned the credits is that I noticed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in what I had been programmed by the late 90s to think of as a cut

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scene, like a lot of times when bridges were forming out of the like big scars for lack of a better

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way of describing them, I realized I could still jump and move and see my character jumping

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and moving. Like you know, the Nintendo 64 era, that would have been a cut scene which was non-interactive, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by the magic of technology, now you can like still move around while that’s going on which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was pretty impressed by that. I’m sure for you that was like completely unremarkable, but I was like,

⏹️ ▶️ John Whoa, I like how you were impressed by the large world and journey. I mean, it’s the same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that’s happened to me when I tried the N64 because I had not played a console since like the Nintendo

⏹️ ▶️ John Super Nintendo. Things had come a long way. If you’re impressed by the large open world and journey, rest

⏹️ ▶️ John assured that actual open world games are just way bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So anyway, so yeah, I really did like the game. I would play it again if I could find a couple hours

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do so. And I am glad I played it. Sorry, Marco, for boring you to death.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And now the only problem I have is that I need to read basically everything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’ve ever written on the internet and listen to basically every podcast you’ve ever been a part of in order to catch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up. One short

⏹️ ▶️ John article is like two pages long. It appeared in the magazine. It’s on my site. You can just read it right there. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a podcast, which is shorter than the one we’re doing right now.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Like all of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco them.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that’s about it. And and then the the after dark thing with tiff which

⏹️ ▶️ John is even shorter, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah, which I’ll need to go back to as well

⏹️ ▶️ John Cue him up. It’s not that long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In this time I have run an altar table fixed three bugs Answered about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ten support emails and paid my electric bill

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re welcome This is your punishment for not playing journey when you you you were able you were all set

⏹️ ▶️ John to play journey for so long and Just wouldn’t do it So now you have to listen to it. You have to listen to conversations

⏹️ ▶️ John about it Not once but twice actually you didn’t did you even listen when it was on? I guess you couldn’t because she had the headphones

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and see now and Casey see your reward for doing your homework is John’s telling you You have to do it again

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I mean, I

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t tell Tiff to play again, but she did and she enjoyed it. So there you go I’m making people

⏹️ ▶️ John happy Marco. What are you doing?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’ll pay my

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey leftover tables.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s fantastic. I think the top rated title, Not Suitable for Any Purpose is pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey darn good. I do like that one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco, you’re the one, Jesus, Marco, we need to give you a remedial course on title casing. I was just about

⏹️ ▶️ John to make fun of this person who put one is for spam about their inability to do title case. I looked to the right, author

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco. Do you know what title case is? I can give you a command line script that will turn things into title case. You can go to

⏹️ ▶️ John and type the words in and it will give you, you don’t just capital Every word I know they’re confusing

⏹️ ▶️ John rules, but like if you don’t know them just run it through a machine I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco am aware of that however I’m Following precedent that we have always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco capitalized every word for all of our titles

⏹️ ▶️ John only because you don’t know title case And you’re the one who types in the titles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lately not lately usually it’s me lately

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not it’s not a precedent as those people establish our style guide should be established on our early mistakes

⏹️ ▶️ John No, just just do it the right way There’s no time like the present to be correct. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Might also just you know, just keep doing like this that way I can just subtly drive you crazy over time

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re punishing yourself. It’s gonna be When you go back and look at the instant paper 1.0 screenshots, you’re like, oh god How did

⏹️ ▶️ John I even ship that these titles would be like this later in your life?

⏹️ ▶️ John Notice who Joe underscore underscore underscore underscore who suggested not suitable for any purpose

⏹️ ▶️ John He didn’t capitalize the word for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he knows what’s up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let’s see that looks weird to me. Like why isn’t any then lowercase

⏹️ ▶️ John English doesn’t make sense. Don’t argue just follow the rules.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, there are certainly like the rules about like, you know, you’re supposed to put the period inside the quotes at the

⏹️ ▶️ John end

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of a sense

⏹️ ▶️ John UK versus us that I don’t think the title casing rules change for you. Anyway, doesn’t matter. We know which country we’re in

⏹️ ▶️ John follow our rules. Don’t be like Gruber and follow the UK rules because he likes them

⏹️ ▶️ John better.