Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

71: Security By Guilt

Let’s put Google I/O in the parking lot so we can talk about Million Dollar Homepage.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ John If you’d only put feet on the fast tech logo, that would have been your ticket to financial freedom. Oh God,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the worst. I hate you so much.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, it’s so obvious now that Casey’s error was making fast techs have too many features. If he’d have just simply

⏹️ ▶️ John sent the word yo to everybody, he’d be a millionaire now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Little did I know.

⏹️ ▶️ John You thought too big. You’re like, oh, I gotta have a way to configure different messages and send them all on buttons. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John just send the word yo. Push notification. Done and done.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Seriously, how can the Valley take themselves seriously? I mean, that was a product of the Valley, I assume, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I think Marco was the one who compared it to Million Dollar Homepage. Yep. Million Dollar Homepage still

⏹️ ▶️ John wins because that venture capital money, like he has to actually spend that to try to grow the business or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John The Million Dollar Homepage guy just got the money and it’s his free and clear. Like, he does not have to invest it into a

⏹️ ▶️ John business. He’s not expected to hire employees, to get office space. Like, the venture capital money this guy got

⏹️ ▶️ John comes with massive strings attached and he will never be able to fulfill what these people want

⏹️ ▶️ John because he’s stupid and his business is stupid. So the Million Dollar Homepage guy still wins

⏹️ ▶️ John for the best business plan of any business in the entire universe. I continue to try to think of

⏹️ ▶️ John some equivalent.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Many have

⏹️ ▶️ John tried. Yeah, God, that guy, he’s the smartest person in the world. Ha ha

⏹️ ▶️ John ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha In case he had to come up with the idea, he would have tried

⏹️ ▶️ John to do it with WebSockets and then it wouldn’t have worked. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha It’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John a web page. That’s it. Your financial investment in risk is, even when he did it, like in 1995,

⏹️ ▶️ John like his total financial investment in a static web page, like hosting it and paying for bandwidth,

⏹️ ▶️ John should must have been like, let’s say $100

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey against a million

⏹️ ▶️ John in income.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can we make this the intro?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I was already planning on doing that, yeah. That

⏹️ ▶️ John guy, man.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Even if the intro is like five minutes long before we actually get to the real show, that I’m okay with that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. No one knows what a million dollar homepage is though, do they, these days? Of course. They

⏹️ ▶️ John can look it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up for God’s sakes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is not hard to find. Is it still up? I hope it was guaranteed to be up for a certain amount of time, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, it’s still up. It’s still fast. And he’s selling posters of it. It’s a genius.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it didn’t, it probably doesn’t lose all of its data if the server crashed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You guys are so mean to me. My goodness.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to admit there’s one aspect of it that I guess he had to do something assuming he didn’t program this he would have to

⏹️ ▶️ John put in the pixels that they paid for in their places right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I’m pretty sure he did it manually because otherwise it’s kind of a layout issue the box packing problem

⏹️ ▶️ John right right so there is some small component of labor but I’m sure the

⏹️ ▶️ John the bed of money he was laying on made that labor more valuable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wow

⏹️ ▶️ John this is so and he had to make the image map and the links to it I guess so he had to

⏹️ ▶️ John he had to write HTML and click buttons in an image editor.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, because this was long before anything more useful than that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, he’s got a mouse over on it now too. This is advanced technology. He really put a lot of time and effort into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this. So I just expanded the, I did inspect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey element on Safari and I expanded the map element and I think I just crashed Safari.

⏹️ ▶️ John The best part is he’s got like fake tooltips for I guess the days before browsers didn’t do automatic tooltips and you see the fake

⏹️ ▶️ John one and the real one. Like the fake one follows the cursor But the real one lags behind it and it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many hits a day do you think this gets?

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean the only bad thing is that I guess he thought kind of small because a million dollars doesn’t really last that long I’m sure he’s already gone through

⏹️ ▶️ John this money or whatever But it’s a hell of a start for like starting your adult life at 20 whatever years old he was Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, and so like and unfortunately, he’s now in the same situation as the rest of the world is like I need another idea That’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John that if you had done ten million dollar home page, he would have been a lot more comfortable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, so you see this layout and you see how it’s like all loud because he you know didn’t control

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who bought bought. Yeah, so it’s like visually very loud, right? Yeah, looks like the web in the 90s. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey his new web, his new venture, calm calm, COM

⏹️ ▶️ John or CLM, C, CLM, he probably spent a million dollars in that domain.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Probably, as per his Twitter account, he is the founder and CEO of calm.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll bet he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not loading as quickly as the million dollar.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey No, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco isn’t. Maybe do we just like take it down with three simultaneous requests?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s got a little water background. And no I’m seeing a cloud background. I got water prepare

⏹️ ▶️ John for your two-minute session choose your preferred nature something with some BS relaxation thing

⏹️ ▶️ John Your other day idea was better both BS Yeah, but one makes

⏹️ ▶️ John people send him money the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco site was guaranteed to be online at least through August 26 2010 However,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the aim is to keep the site online forever or as long as humanly possible

⏹️ ▶️ John I love how he still got the sold-out banner. Yeah, right Just in case you want to still want to buy things

⏹️ ▶️ John sold out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the minimum purchase was 10 by 10 or $100. Yeah, it was $1 pixel. So he

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s that was his only thing is that he thought a little bit small because anyone who bought this like I guess he probably did get some

⏹️ ▶️ John private individuals but mostly it’s going to be businesses and businesses are willing to spend way more than $100 on BS

⏹️ ▶️ John boondoggles like this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but back then were

⏹️ ▶️ John they? Oh, yeah, definitely. Like, I mean, that’s I’m not saying you could have got thousands, but you could have got, you know, 300

⏹️ ▶️ John or 500 easy. Because 100 is under the petty cash threshold even of most businesses in the 90s, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ John Type of site, pixel advertising.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s on Wikipedia. Were there many others?

⏹️ ▶️ John As opposed to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey non-pixel advertising. Oh, so you click on pixel advertising, and you end up back

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the million dollar home page, redirected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John from pixel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey advertising. Ay yi yi. Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buy me an M3. All right, let me do some extraordinarily

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quick follow-up. The ShowBot is back, and if I was more prepared, which I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because the show is accidental, I’ve had some people contributing to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I know Jeremy Banks put a lot of work into it, Kyle Cronin did, and Brad Choate,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who runs the ShowBot that actually works, he has also contributed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I’m probably forgetting some people here and there, and for that I’m deeply sorry, And I really mean that because I didn’t pull up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey GitHub before we started. But yes, the show bot is back. We’ve, and by we I mean everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but me, has made some pretty good improvements to it. We’ll see how long

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it lasts. We are currently about two minutes into recording and it hasn’t quite died yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it’s been a really, all kidding aside, it’s been a really, really cool thing to see people issuing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pull requests. The only bad thing about putting something that’s semi-popular on the internet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and open sourcing it is that, unbeknownst to me, when people actually pay attention, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not used to, you actually have some sort of implied time commitment to look at poll requests

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and figure things out. So…

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a good topic for a show. Do you have an implied time commitment to do that? Obviously

⏹️ ▶️ John you think you do, but do you actually? That’s not for today’s topic, but save

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it. I was gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say we could use the standard consulting term and we could put that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the parking lot for now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What? Wait, hold on. That’s a real

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing? Oh, I spent all day in meetings and I’m about to cry. What is wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with you

⏹️ ▶️ John people? I regret to say that I do know about the parking lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Only Marco doesn’t know. Oh my God.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What? Oh, you’ve already broken my brain. We’re like three minutes into the show. That’s it. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done. I can’t say anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey else.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t do it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No that you just broke my brain more than Google I did that’s really saying something.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re welcome.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You know you

⏹️ ▶️ John should have been doing Casey all this time and you haven’t figured it out now I will give you the hint to help you along that

⏹️ ▶️ John path even though you’re being dragged down it by other people.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey As soon

⏹️ ▶️ John as you had the chat room filled with people who were attacking your bot and everything and how it’s gonna help improve

⏹️ ▶️ John it and help you improve your code and be educational and entertaining for everyone involved you should have immediately

⏹️ ▶️ John tried to enlist a faction of people who are on your side because it’s very

⏹️ ▶️ John easy to get programmers on your side when presented with a problem like hey a bunch of other people

⏹️ ▶️ John are attacking this program help me make it stronger at least half of the people who are attacking probably

⏹️ ▶️ John would have said oh I’d like to be on the defense side of this game you know what I mean in gaming parlance do you want to be attackers

⏹️ ▶️ John or defenders you haven’t done that it’s been happening to you people have been saying here let me help you out with your bot.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I think you would have been successful even on the very first show saying I know people are

⏹️ ▶️ John going to attack this and if you want to be on the defense side, join me and then you could get sort of a power

⏹️ ▶️ John dynamic going and I bet it would be a much more fair fight.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and that’s true. But we’ve had, like I said, some volunteers come out of the woodwork and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey make some really excellent changes. A couple of them have started working looking at putting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like memcached in front of it or some equivalent thereof. I haven’t had the time to look

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into the specifics of the more invasive, but I mean that in a good way,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey edits that have been made to the show bot. Oh, there are automated tests now, which I also haven’t looked into yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But one of my cronies, and again, I mean that in a good way, has added automated testing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And at some point I plan on turning that on so that as things get checked into master

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and pushed into master and so on automated tests will run. We did have somebody

⏹️ ▶️ Casey contribute some regex and specifically call you out and say in a happy way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying, oh I don’t know if this is up to John Quality but nevertheless I did something I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was around the suggest checking checking for this the exclamation point

⏹️ ▶️ Casey s. By the way do you guys say bang s or would you say exclamation point? Wait

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why does it have to be a regex? It’s just two characters that always are the same.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it could be it could be exclamation point s or it could be exclamation point suggest.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but they both begin with exclamation point s.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s the way I looked at it. But apparently, if you if you find yourself in the presence of anyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey who’s ever touched Pearl in their lives, then their hammer is made of regex and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything looks like a nail.

⏹️ ▶️ John You want to be permissive in what kind of input you take in because humans are writing it. So you have to allow for variable amounts of

⏹️ ▶️ John spacing. And inevitably, you have to extract the part that is not the command. And that is the title. And and you’re going to want

⏹️ ▶️ John to do things with the title, like normalize it for deduplication purposes and trim out multiple space runs for the official version

⏹️ ▶️ John that you display and all that good stuff. And that’s exactly what regular expressions are for. If you’re a C programmer and

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re stepping through the string of character at a time, I feel bad for you, son, as they say.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, I have two questions. With all these improvements to the ShowBot, question number

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one, is it rate limited?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes. Somebody added some modicum of rate limiting. I haven’t been paying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey super close attention, which comes back to what John said we should put in the parking lot, or what I said we should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey put in the parking lot. But anyways, there is a modicum of rate limiting, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s still no persistence. So when this inevitably goes down— That was question number two. When this inevitably goes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down, we’re going to lose all our titles. So I hope the actual show bot is still around,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Brad Schoetz show bot. But anyway, I’ve turned a new leaf. friend of the show,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Chris Harris, originally from the other media, now he’s with Glide Publishing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He wrote me a very nice email saying, in so many words, yes, it’s annoying, but it makes for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good programming. So, you know, deal with it. So I’m going to try to put

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my happy face. When the show about inevitably goes down in like 10 minutes, I’m going to probably end up really ticked off again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But standing here now, I’m going to put on my happy face.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John See,

⏹️ ▶️ John I bet the guy who wrote you in with like the, we were IMing about a particular known bug that could

⏹️ ▶️ John take out the show bot very quickly, the person who wrote in to you about that probably now feels bad about exploiting it and

⏹️ ▶️ John won’t. So you’ve sort of got that person on your side, because it’s no fun anymore,

⏹️ ▶️ John because if you know about the bug and he told you about the bug, and he knows it’s not fixed, it’s not as fun to exploit it

⏹️ ▶️ John to bring the thing down.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Security by guilt.

⏹️ ▶️ John Someone on the chat room said, well, attacking is always more fun than

⏹️ ▶️ John defending. That’s like level one. Level two is that defending is more fun than attacking because the attackers all

⏹️ ▶️ John think they’re hot, but really if you’re a defender that shows you’re better than all the attackers, you know, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the white hat, black hat thing. I feel like white hat

⏹️ ▶️ John is the next level up from black hat because everyone wants to be black hat, I’m going to crack into things. But to be a white hat, you are

⏹️ ▶️ John saying that you are better than any potential black hat, which is an even more boastful statement.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And we died. Gone. That was it. Let me see if

⏹️ ▶️ John I… also know that known bug and weren’t on your side.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s see where did I see a stack trace unspecified. Oh, apparently there was just some sort of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey error in the WebSocket. All right, you guys stall while I put up a gist so people who actually know what the crap

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re doing can can diagnosis.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our first sponsor this week is a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey new sponsor.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, right. I’m getting good at this sometimes maybe occasionally. Our new sponsor this week

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is Raise Labs. It’s R A I Z L A B S Raise Labs. They are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a full-service development firm with offices in Boston and San Francisco. They’ve been around for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about 10 years now, and they’ve been crafting great mobile products for a variety of companies big and small.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s up from well-known brands like Macy’s and Bloomingdale’s and B&H Photo Video, to local

⏹️ ▶️ Marco startups like SunSprite, the creator of the first solar-powered personal sun exposure tracker. The company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco got its start by shipping one of the very first several hundred apps in the App Store called RunKeeper. It’s actually been there since

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the beginning. It’s a Boston-based GPS fitness tracking app. Anyway, Ray’s Labs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wants to change the world with great software. They care about crafting quality products and they are looking for others

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that share this mentality. See, this sponsorship is actually a job listing. They are actively hiring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for experienced mobile developers, iOS and Android in both Boston and San Francisco

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to engineer beautiful apps and influence product direction for well-known Fortune 500 companies

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and exciting new startups. They’re also looking for talented designers to help craft a memorable experience

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for users as well as product managers. You’ll be working with enthusiastic and supportive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco peers in a trust-based work environment.” I wonder if they have a parking lot. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the place doesn’t have a parking lot, can they still use that phrase? MATT Sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco STEVEN Because they’re in major metro areas. They might not even have a parking lot because those are, you know, they’re in dense areas. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ll just assume they don’t use that phrase. They seem like good people. So, you’ll be working with enthusiastic and supportive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco peers in a trust-based work environment. They also have unique vacation and referral programs. Their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco vacation policy is unlimited, unmetered, it can be summed up in four words,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in team we trust. How much time you take off is up to you. They also have this referral program

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where anyone who refers a talented individual to Raise Labs will receive a four-day all expenses paid vacation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for two. And you can learn about that at They also have hack days every two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weeks. The only requirement is that you must demo or present whatever you’ve learned. And they’re involved

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the iOS community with sponsoring events such as Alt Conf and drinks on tap. So check out Raise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Labs. They’re looking for good people. If you want to work there, get in touch. Go to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once again, that’s raise with a Z, Thanks a lot to Raise Labs for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sponsoring the show and check them out if you want a good job.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so Jeremy Banks in the chat is one of the people who has dedicated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not insignificant amount of time to improving the show bot. And apparently one of the many

⏹️ ▶️ Casey branches and pull requests that is out there that I haven’t had a chance to look at fixes this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey problem, which is to say that I wasn’t catching or handling errors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in WebSockets. Now, of course, that error probably shouldn’t have happened in the first place, but eventually that exception just bubbled up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and brought everything to its knees. So that I believe is what happened.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it’s event driven. Right. And it’s scalable. This is how it scales.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, WebSockets are a little bit weird, but your point is not unreasonable. But anyway, we could, we don’t need to talk about the Chobot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore. It lasted, what, 10 minutes? That’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco bad. Not even. It’s an improvement.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s getting worse every week. It lasted 15 last week. Oh yeah, you’re right.

⏹️ ▶️ John I did my best trying to stall for time by guilting people into not bringing it down. But it only

⏹️ ▶️ John worked for so long.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do we have any actual other follow-up? I mean, we have like this, you know, four pages worth in the document, but are we actually going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco read this or what?

⏹️ ▶️ John I put one item at the very top. I mean, it could be a topic too. It’s just I figured we would talk about Google I.O.,

⏹️ ▶️ John but then Casey said he didn’t even watch it, so I’m not sure what we’ll talk about today. But I had one Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John WWDC sort of related topic, so it’s kind of follow up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, you know, follow up is the essence of experience design. The primary actions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are inflection points that transform the whole design. emphasis makes core functionality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco immediately apparent and provides waypoints for the user.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not the worst one though. The one that DHH tweeted was,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I think

⏹️ ▶️ John that was, because I read that like six times and I’m like, there’s not even,

⏹️ ▶️ John is there a verb in the sentence anywhere? It was just.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, for what it’s worth, I did at least look at a couple of recaps to see the general gist of what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was said. And I watched one of their like, what is this silly term they have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for design? material-based design or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A material metaphor is the unifying theory of a rationalized space and a system of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco motion. Our material is grounded in tactile reality, inspired by our study

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of paper and ink, yet open to imagination and magic.

⏹️ ▶️ John The thing that scared me when he tweeted that, because he said the tweet was something like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John has, you know, some high-minded knowledge or, you know, BS

⏹️ ▶️ John language essentially in their copy sometimes, but this really takes the cake. And I’m like, that’s from an Apple website?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because I thought he was saying that, yeah, Apple does, Apple says some crazy stuff sometimes. But look at this, this is the worst thing they’ve ever done.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I was looking at him like, what, what web page could that possibly be from that that

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t be from an Apple site. And I was relieved to learn that it was not from an Apple site, but it was from a Google site.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, not,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not great. No, but I will say the literally two or two and a half minute video that they have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on on their new design site, where they don’t really say much of anything, I don’t think,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but they show the kind of idea behind the look and feel

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of what is this, Android L. But anyway, so that actually looked good to me. And a lot of it looked a lot like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS, and some of it didn’t, but I thought it looked good.

⏹️ ▶️ John I thought the Apple video, their little intro video for iOS 7 looked better. But it’s not like,

⏹️ ▶️ John we could do the whole show talking about how Google is worse at giving keynotes than Apple. But really,

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t matter that much how good the keynote is or how good the copy

⏹️ ▶️ John and marketing on their site matters a little bit more because that’s persistent. But in terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of why do this thing, why do this material UI, Google

⏹️ ▶️ John has been trying for the past several years to address its perceived and I

⏹️ ▶️ John think actual shortcoming in user interface by saying it should look less like a bunch of programmers

⏹️ ▶️ John slapped something together and more like there were designers involved. And it’s been a slow, long process, and this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the next step in it, to try to unify Google’s user interface

⏹️ ▶️ John across all the things that have user interface to give a family resemblance or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t you think that’s a good idea? I mean, you can argue whether it should be unified across everything from watches to

⏹️ ▶️ John televisions, but Apple kind of has a common design language across

⏹️ ▶️ John everything that it does, even if they’re not as similar as this material UI

⏹️ ▶️ John is supposed to be.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it’s, they’re going in a good direction. They’re going in a direction they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to go in. A lot of the things they talked about while they were full of this, you know, blowhard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the clouds language, and who knows what they were sniffing over there when they came up with some of this, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the design, the actual design below all this BS looks pretty good to me. But it’s easy,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, it’s, we can’t really judge yet. it’s way too early to judge because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we don’t really know how this will be in practice and the three of us will probably never know because we’ll probably never use it regularly to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even see it but you know it’s easy to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco give a good demo.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well is it easy? Is it easy to give a good demo? Fair

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point. There’s gonna be some challenges with this like every design language like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every especially every like trendy looking design language. One of the things I noticed immediately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was it seems extremely reliant on fairly undiscoverable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gestures and you can say that about a lot of iOS stuff as well but it seems like this was especially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so in that direction. That’s a little bit scary to me from just from a usability perspective. Anything that revolves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco around like, oh well you can you can just pinch this out and drag here and move this thing around.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well it has to be pretty clear to people you know what can move, what can’t, what is draggable,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what can’t if there’s something like a pinch or a drag that can expose pretty good functionality how do you ever figure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that out? That’s always tricky with gesture based interfaces and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be a challenge here too. That being said, again I think it’s too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco early to tell because anybody can, well, almost anybody can make a good demo,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s even easier to make a good video, it’s much harder to actually predict

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how this will be once it’s integrated through the whole system and once app start integrating it and none

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the three of us know enough about Android to even know what the main problems these days are.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, not having used it is no reason for to not pick up things that you don’t like about it. So at least

⏹️ ▶️ John at least two things to complain about from the end. The first complaint is to actually complain about all recent

⏹️ ▶️ John visual redesign things is that iOS does it, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, Google’s doing with this, everybody who does some sort of UI refresh feels this need.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is it peer pressure or is it just like, you know, this is not new to computer interfaces. I guess this has always been there.

⏹️ ▶️ John They want some kind of theme or metaphor to anchor their design, which is a common thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John But in user interfaces on mobile devices and stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John like the metaphor that Google used was, don’t just think of it as a bunch of pixels.

⏹️ ▶️ John Think of the pixels not just having x and y coordinates but also z coordinates and down to the point where in the demo

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re like in your UI you’ll essentially give z layering to all of your things

⏹️ ▶️ John and then our user interface library will make them look like they have that z layering by applying

⏹️ ▶️ John shadows and rendering them real time and all this stuff or whatever but that metaphor like that you need this metaphor that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like pieces of paper and they’re stacked and they have a z index or like apple where it’s like translucent things

⏹️ ▶️ John sliding past each other and it’s a layered thing. Those metaphors are important in that they inform the user

⏹️ ▶️ John interface, but it seems like maybe, I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s worse about this, Apple or Google, like they take that design and they go beyond just having

⏹️ ▶️ John this be a way that humans who look at the screen can understand what’s supposed to happen. And they

⏹️ ▶️ John just get lost in it and think that everything in their user interface has to inform

⏹️ ▶️ John and reinforce that metaphor for the sake of the metaphor, not for, like it flips instead

⏹️ ▶️ John of the metaphor being this is how we’re going to get people to understand how to use our device it becomes the metaphor

⏹️ ▶️ John is the goal and every part of our user interface has to reinforce and build on that metaphor right down to

⏹️ ▶️ John being clever expansions of that metaphor and doing stuff like that it’s like they lose the forest for the trees so every time

⏹️ ▶️ John i see one of these videos that explains what the underlying thing is and then spends the rest of the video showing how everything

⏹️ ▶️ John folds into an underlying thing i’d rather have them show me how the metaphor makes

⏹️ ▶️ John the interface more understandable to people instead of showing me how every part of the user interface conforms to the metaphor.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s one thing. And again, you can’t tell until we use it, but I can tell from the presentations that

⏹️ ▶️ John this is how they’re presenting their UI. And the second thing, what is the second thing? I feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like, what’s his name? The guy who forgot the third thing, but I can’t remember the second thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nice.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’ll come to me in a second. Go on, I’ll get it in a second.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So they only spent about the first 45 minutes or so talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new stuff that was going into Android, right? Do I have that roughly right? And then like the rest of it was Some of these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new initiatives like the the Android wear Android TV Android and your vehicles whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their Android car and or drive What are they calling it?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh auto Android. Is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, android auto other way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, it seemed like you know So the first 45 minutes here’s what’s new in Android basically good, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s if you’re into Android that’s probably very relevant and I think what what got people to say it was so boring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because in the first part of it everybody was was quite interested in all that and you know I wasn’t watching it live but I was watching

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the the Twitter response and yeah the first part of it was seemed pretty strong and then they get into this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know hour and a half more or two hours more of talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about various new hardware integration initiatives

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s what’s bad about that is that none of these things are actual products yet or very few of them are and and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s all about the promise of what you can maybe do with this in the future. When Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unveiled the health book, health kit thing, home kit,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they didn’t even mention CarPlay, or if they did, it was very quick in this keynote,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I think it was… Didn’t it launch last year? Didn’t they initially announce

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CarPlay last year? Anyway… But they had a Ferrari. Right. But they didn’t give

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it a whole lot of time in the keynote because there’s not much really to say yet. It’s, hey, we have this new thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We hope people make devices for it, basically, and we hope you make apps for it once these devices exist.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Good luck with that and moving on. And that’s what they did this year with HealthKit and HomeKit because there really was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not much to say. Google devoted three quarters of their keynote to that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I think that’s why it was so boring because it’s a lot like a CES

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keynote at that point. You know, CES keynotes are like famously, you know, like when, especially like when Microsoft would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco give them our HP or whoever, they would always be famously full of vaporware. It would always be like this, this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crazy stuff that kind of maybe sounds interesting during the demo and kind of sounds possibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco impossible or stretching the limits of what consumer products can be or can do realistically. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then, you know, six months later, they get canceled and they were never released or they,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, they come out and they’re really disappointing and they flop badly in the market because they were nothing like what they were what they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were gonna be demoed like in the keynote and it’s hard to look at Google’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rest of their keynote and and not make a parallel there because it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost everything they announced after the first 45 minutes was like here’s a bunch of new stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the best-case scenario might come out fairly soon and might be kind of cool but we’re depending on a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of other people for that to happen and in the meantime time here’s some pretty terrible smart watches to tide

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you over.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s a little bit harsh because I mean a this is Google’s part of Google strategy is that they

⏹️ ▶️ John they make a platform that other hardware maker other people can build products on like that’s their thing I mean you can say you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John like that thing as

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey much

⏹️ ▶️ John as Apple’s thing but that is certainly their thing so to expect Google to come out and have

⏹️ ▶️ John products behind every single one of these things that their software platform provides is

⏹️ ▶️ John probably expect to be too much like Apple, but the things that they the things that they show, like the idea

⏹️ ▶️ John that we’ve got this platform, we platform works, obviously, in phones and tablets. Here’s

⏹️ ▶️ John how the platform works on television. Here’s how it work might work on a watch.

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t like the watches either, but it is showing that their platform works there. And the TV

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff look pretty good to me. Certainly they have shown an ability to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a single platform that split that spans all all those devices better than Apple has, because Apple has

⏹️ ▶️ John its platform. It’s got its desktop platform and its tablet and phone platform and its TV platform.

⏹️ ▶️ John And there’s no unified story that includes all of them. I mean, and you could you could

⏹️ ▶️ John say, well, we don’t want it to be unified across the Mac and iOS devices, which is fine. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the TV thing already runs iOS, but it doesn’t even run apps like they’re not extending that platform out there. So I think

⏹️ ▶️ John that Google is out ahead of Apple in terms of having a unified platform across all their products. It just so

⏹️ ▶️ John happens that they’re not responsible for making all their products because their whole deal is they let other people build on them and so on and so forth.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the TV stuff that they showed that looks a hell of a lot better than the Apple TV. You I don’t don’t you guys think?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I didn’t see very much of it. But the one or two images I saw looked very good. And the Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is starting to look a little dated. But to go back just a step, what’s so bad about these watches?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m I don’t I mean, I’ll tell you

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s bad about the watches.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So let me finish my thought. But I genuinely would love to hear what you have to say, because I’m looking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at these pictures that are on the verge of the which one is this moto 360 and I don’t see an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey issue with the circular display That’s the round one, right? Okay. Well hold it. Yes. It’s around one now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hold on now The one thing I was gonna say is I have the tiniest Wrists that any man has ever had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in in the history of mankind And so I think this thing would look ridiculous on me But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s assume for a moment that I didn’t have little teeny tiny wrists. I don’t see what’s so bad about this I think it looks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay. It looks a lot better than

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco why do smartwatches suck?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what smartwatches in general, but the ones they showed at this Google thing And I didn’t watch all the smartwatch

⏹️ ▶️ John demo, but I watched enough to see what they’re doing, essentially. And I had just talked about how it was a good idea that

⏹️ ▶️ John Google had a platform that spanned little screens to big screens and how that was a strength for

⏹️ ▶️ John them. But I remain unconvinced that the correct way to do a smartwatch

⏹️ ▶️ John is to take your user interface that you have on your phones and your tablets and your TVs and continue to shrink it until it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John on your wrist and then tap and swipe your way through a series of UIs that are custom made to fit on a very tiny screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because that just doesn’t look like a good time for me. That doesn’t look like something that’s useful. You have to compromise

⏹️ ▶️ John certain UI elements, and staples just don’t work on a small screen. Like, table views

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff start to become ridiculous when you can see two items at once. And, you know, it’s just, I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the right solution for a screen that small. In the same way that the right solution for a screen the size of a television

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t merely like a tablet UI made larger, right? It’s something entirely different,

⏹️ ▶️ John nevermind that you’re not even touching it. It just doesn’t seem like there’s enough room down there If you just say, I’ll just take my regular

⏹️ ▶️ John Android OS and just make it smaller. And I’ll keep the elements the same size so they’re still touchable, but I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want, you know, but if there’s not room for a particular element, I just won’t put that on there. And I’ll just have, you know, small things and you’ll swipe

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’re tap, swiping and tapping on something that small just looks like a non-starter to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I’ve had, you know, the small iPod Nanos with the little touchscreen and everything, and you know, it’s just not,

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t work for me. So I think there is another solution to things that big.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it doesn’t involve screens at all. it does maybe they behave in a different way maybe it’s just a matter of putting different

⏹️ ▶️ John ui elements on that screen that don’t exist in any form on any of the larger screens uh

⏹️ ▶️ John so that’s that’s why i think these watches are duds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to some extent i can see why google pushes this whole like one interface scalable to every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device size thing because they have to because that’s that’s the environment of android hardware like they they kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of have to do that in general um I do agree though. It’s it’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a pretty painful approach for developers to try to try to actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fulfill the promise of that and try to actually make like one interface that magically scales to all these different sizes and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t suck on Any of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s I think it’s custom UI for the phone I’m just saying like the elements that are involved buttons regions

⏹️ ▶️ John that you scroll Controls for doing things. I mean, I guess they don’t have text input because it’s mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John speech or whatever but just I’m assuming that you have to write a custom UI for this and that they have custom

⏹️ ▶️ John controls for it certainly for things like The circular screen and all that stuff But it’s just that the the elements

⏹️ ▶️ John that are involved in the user interface Things that you tap things that you slide things that you scroll

⏹️ ▶️ John through I don’t think there’s enough room for that type of interface and a thing that small and I’m I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John Spacing this mostly I say you by using the touchscreen iPods that have the very small touchscreens.

⏹️ ▶️ John It just doesn’t feel good at that size

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The big problem that we’ve seen with almost all of the smartwatches that have come out so far from the Pebble to these new ones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s all about the screen and the screen is never big enough to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco useful but never small enough to make for a good watch. And that’s why I think that really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the whole idea of a smartwatch might not be possible to make a good one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Certainly not with today’s technology but maybe even ever. There’s just fundamental

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limits of like, the ideal watch does not have a giant screen, but the ideal touchscreen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is big. And so, it’s very hard to rectify that conflict design-wise.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even if you could make it infinitely thin and light and give it infinite battery life, you still have the issue of,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we need to somehow maximize but also minimize the size of the screen. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t know if you’re right about that because – so I have a couple of friends that are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch collectors and I think I probably would be one of those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people if A, I wasn’t cheap and B, I didn’t have the tiny wrist that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we spoke about earlier. But like for example, a Rolex is a – the average stereotypical

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Rolex is fairly large and like my one friend really, really loved

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Panerai watches which I’d never heard of until I’d spoken to him about it, but they’re very pretty, I believe, Italian watches.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And they’re huge! They’re freaking enormous. And like Clarkson and Hammond on Top Gear,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if memory serves, are both big into watches and typically wear these physically very, very large

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watches. So— Right, because Top Gear presenters are the real fashion leaders of the world.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s the point, though, that they’re—all these people who are wearing these watches are wearing them for

⏹️ ▶️ John fashion reasons, not for utilitarian reasons, and they don’t—how long do they spend looking at

⏹️ ▶️ John the face of those watches? Let alone pawing at the face of those watches. Zero time pawing at

⏹️ ▶️ John the face of the watches. Very short amount of times looking at the face of the watches. They’re mostly wearing them

⏹️ ▶️ John as a piece of jewelry, as a fashion accessory, not as a utilitarian thing. So these, none

⏹️ ▶️ John of these things qualify as fashion accessories because they’re ugly, especially the square one looks terrible, the circle one looks humongous.

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess if you’re, if you are a giant person it is proportional to you and then, but then you’ll have equivalently giant

⏹️ ▶️ John sausage-like fingers I won’t be able to use it anyway. But the idea that anyone’s going to spend any amount of time turning their wrist towards

⏹️ ▶️ John themselves and staring at their wrist and pawing at it with their finger to get stuff done, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll just turn their wrist back down, take out their phone. A

⏹️ ▶️ John decade ago, people on the street weren’t holding a rectangle staring at it with their heads down all the time. Now you walk around a city

⏹️ ▶️ John street, everyone’s got little rectangles out and they’re staring at them. So that is a change in behavior. So it’s conceivable that a couple of years from now,

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of everyone holding little rectangles, everyone is staring at their wrist as if they’re trying to tell what time it is, but all can’t tell time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, boy, I can only tell time in a digital clock. And they’re just staring at it, and they’re studying it. But really what they’re doing is like reading Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John on their wrist. I guess that’s conceivable, but it still seems to me that that’s not the,

⏹️ ▶️ John smartwatch is not just a phone strapped to your wrist that’s smaller. I think that is the wrong solution for smartwatches. And

⏹️ ▶️ John no matter how good technology gets, what if we can make it as thin as a piece of paper? If it’s still watch-sized,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to be holding it up and looking at it or pulling at it with my finger. I think there is a role for something smart that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John on your wrist. I’m just I just don’t think the role is like a tiny little phone on your wrist.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. So maybe maybe the solution then, you know, because I think you’re right. I you know, so maybe the solution really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not to leave the interaction to the watch to to leave the watch really just be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a very, you know, as small as possible. A just a display.

⏹️ ▶️ John It could be an output device for for notifications. Oh, I’m late for my meeting or, you know, voice input quickly.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then it would start sounding off directions to your Bluetooth headset to tell you where to turn as you walk through. like there are uses

⏹️ ▶️ John that I can see for. I’m not saying a smart watch is dumb. A smart watch is a good idea. It’s just that what these guys keep making

⏹️ ▶️ John is tiny phone on my wrist.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. Whereas if you give up on the idea that you should be pawing at your watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the time, if the watch’s primary purpose is to give you information at a quick glance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then you leave the interaction up to taking the phone into your pocket, which is better suited for the job in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost every case anyway, then you can make the watch substantially simpler and you can make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the display much smaller and you can you can then I mean it doesn’t even need to be a touch screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not getting one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You don’t even have an iPhone yet. I don’t have a watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well that’s true of the three of us I’m the only one who actually wears a watch aren’t I? I wore a watch in middle school.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wore a watch up until around the time I got an iPhone and then I stopped wearing a watch and then I just recently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey started again. I remembered my

⏹️ ▶️ John second thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh good tell us about your second thing. We’re also a

⏹️ ▶️ John sponge. Just kidding. Too early. So we were talking about the material

⏹️ ▶️ John UI, and I was talking about the metaphor taking too much prominence, both in Google and Apple. The second thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is that’s unique to what Google showed for the material thing. They only showed a little bit of it, was

⏹️ ▶️ John that they’ve decided to do something that I thought more touch

⏹️ ▶️ John user interfaces would do. And the fact that no one has done it

⏹️ ▶️ John that much until Google demoed it is surprising to me but maybe everybody knows something that Google doesn’t and

⏹️ ▶️ John that thing is showing feedback for your touch as a matter

⏹️ ▶️ John of course as a matter of like with the expectation that when you touch or do anything in the interface the interface response

⏹️ ▶️ John lets you know you’ve done it now that type of feedback is really important in regular user interfaces

⏹️ ▶️ John with you know a mouse and everything because it’s indirect in a way so you put your cursor

⏹️ ▶️ John over a button you click the button you want the button to highlight and you want it to highlight on mouse down and you wanted to do something

⏹️ ▶️ John different on mouse up. Like you want to feel like you’re pressing it. So though you know they used to have 3d type interfaces where

⏹️ ▶️ John the buttons look puffy and early versions of Windows and Mac and even today to

⏹️ ▶️ John some degree as well. And it lets you know that you were successful that something was happening. If you just had

⏹️ ▶️ John a user interface where there were buttons and you click them and nothing happened and then eventually the dialogue went away you might not be sure which

⏹️ ▶️ John button you click. The same thing with the the menus that come down on the Mac. When you select a menu item on

⏹️ ▶️ John the original Mac, the menu item you selected would flash on and off a few times before the menu went away

⏹️ ▶️ John because they want you to know, yeah, you were trying to get that menu item, you did get that menu item, in fact it was adjustable on the original

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac to be like one flash, two flash, or three flashes or whatever. Visual feedback, what’s going on?

⏹️ ▶️ John Touch elements do the same thing, like on iOS when you touch a button it may invert or whatever like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the Material UI seems to go much farther in that it’s almost giving you the kind of thing you see on a screen

⏹️ ▶️ John in presentations where they want you to show where the person is touching, you can’t see their finger because they’re using a device, but the device’s screen is

⏹️ ▶️ John being projected. So they have like those little circles like that appear in the iOS simulator or whatever. But this is

⏹️ ▶️ John part of the OS, that you get a little circle with like little ripply lines coming out of it. And then when you select

⏹️ ▶️ John an element, a little ripple goes across the element to show that it’s selected. Very heavy handed feedback

⏹️ ▶️ John to let people know that, yes, I registered your touch. Yes, it touched this item and here

⏹️ ▶️ John it is. And not just on like individual items or buttons, but if they touch almost anywhere, like they were showing on the dial pad, you see

⏹️ ▶️ John little ripples appear where you hit the dial pad, not just like the one button ripples, but where your finger touched. If you touched

⏹️ ▶️ John on the upper left of the one, a little ripple appears there. And I can’t decide if this is brilliant

⏹️ ▶️ John or terrible. Part of me that makes me think it might be brilliant is I’ve seen a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ John use touch interfaces and not be sure whether their touches are doing anything. Now

⏹️ ▶️ John granted, most of the time that’s because either using a touch device that is not as responsive as a top end

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS device, like say some cruddy Android thing where the interface is slow, and they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John stab at it a few times, or hit the same button multiple times, or try it and then take their finger off and try

⏹️ ▶️ John it again because it didn’t register that time, that must be frustrating for them. So if Android

⏹️ ▶️ John is the OS of choice for underpowered devices with non-responsive UIs, having

⏹️ ▶️ John really heavy-handed visual feedback to let people know when their touch was registered and where

⏹️ ▶️ John the device thinks they touched and what thing they just selected might be an excellent idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John But on the other hand, I think it would drive me insane because the whole point of a great touch interface is that

⏹️ ▶️ John it should feel like manipulating like a physical thing. Scrolling should stick to my finger. Touching the button should immediately highlighting

⏹️ ▶️ John it like it should be direct manipulation. I don’t need this indirection. But if the indirection is there

⏹️ ▶️ John because everything is too slow, then maybe this kind of interface is a good idea. And what it makes me

⏹️ ▶️ John think is that if the world of Android users gets used to this eventually in four years when everybody’s using this interface,

⏹️ ▶️ John they will find a device that does not do this, even if the device is super responsive, to be inferior. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’d be like, oh, I like the one that shows me where I touched. Does that sound crazy that that would be something that eventually people

⏹️ ▶️ John could latch onto and think is great?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I mean, that’s, I think what we’re seeing this year, what we saw a lot from Apple, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think what Google has always been doing to some degree and is continuing to do like this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re seeing the platforms try to differentiate themselves further

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that they lock people in more effectively. Not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of people leave iOS for Android, but a lot of people have left Android for iOS. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certainly Google wants to stop that, and certainly Apple wants to make the reverse less likely to happen in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so we’re seeing things like Apple building up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole bunch of hype around things like CloudKit and the cloud services, the things that don’t appear on Android.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing similar things with, you know, the levels of integration, they can get the you know, what they can permit app developers to do. And now,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something like that, certainly it could be, it could be a strategic thing like that it probably probably wasn’t. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, it’s probably like, I’m sure somebody thought about that after they came up with it and said, Oh, this also has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a side benefit of being, you know, some potential lock in,

⏹️ ▶️ John I wouldn’t view it as lock in, it was just like, it’s if it’s, if it’s a feature that people like, and they come

⏹️ ▶️ John to associate it with, like that category of product, right? In the same way that essentially people

⏹️ ▶️ John came to associate a rectangle with a screen on it as what a smartphone looks like,

⏹️ ▶️ John and everyone else had to make rectangles with screens on them because that’s what people thought of. A smartphone is because iPhone defined the category.

⏹️ ▶️ John Giving people something that they react to strongly, that makes them feel comfortable with the device,

⏹️ ▶️ John makes them feel comfortable using the device, makes it feel familiar and friendly, it’s not lock-in like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John I wish I could leave, but I can’t because the other devices don’t have this feature. that they like it

⏹️ ▶️ John and that they try to go to something else and they say, I miss that thing. I miss the ripples. It makes me feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like they might not be able to articulate it. But it’s weird

⏹️ ▶️ John because, like I said, I think I would hate that feature. But I think a lot of people might like it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think Apple would never do anything like that, never that heavy handed. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John Google may have just done something brilliant. Or people will hate it, and then Google will turn it off. Or no apps will ever use

⏹️ ▶️ John this new UI except for the five things that Google makes and it will continue to be a crazy fragmented world over there, but we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see. I think you’re reading way too much into this. Erin had a touchscreen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone with a slide-out keyboard, which was not a smartphone. It wasn’t like a BlackBerry or anything like that. It was just a phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that had a touchscreen and a slide-out keyboard. This was right before she got her first iPhone. Around the same

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time, I was begging her to let me get her an iPhone, but she didn’t think it was worth it. That’s a different discussion for another time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, the point is that thing had tactic feedback insofar as – I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s the right word. But anyway, it would vibrate a little bit when you touched it. And I believe it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like had a little white spot on the screen where you touch the screen. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey she didn’t think anything of it as soon as she got her iPhone that that neither of those features

⏹️ ▶️ Casey air quotes were there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that was so long ago that that phone must have been so awful and so unresponsive. And the vibration

⏹️ ▶️ John is just pointless because it’s not telling you anything. Because it’s not telling you where you did it. But like, that’s that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a bigger leap from like, from pre iPhone, smartphone to iPhone yet, no matter what the old ones had, eventually, even the physical

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboards that people held on for the longest time, eventually, it’s like, all right, just give up. It’s no more physical

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboards. Everyone was one over that. But I think the gap between a modern Android device

⏹️ ▶️ John and a modern iPhone is small enough that this is like, especially with all the things they kept showing. I know they say this

⏹️ ▶️ John every year, but hey, look, we made our user interface more responsive. Eventually, it’s going to be true just because hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John gets better and better in these things. And everything they showed looked pretty darn smooth. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking that the gap is small enough that differentiators like this,

⏹️ ▶️ John if they prove popular, may be a problem for Apple in terms of getting people to

⏹️ ▶️ John come over, just like the big screens are, in the same way like the big gigantic screens that we thought, oh, I don’t want everyone to screen like

⏹️ ▶️ John it, but people love them. They love the big screens. And so Apple is essentially forced to field larger screen phones,

⏹️ ▶️ John we all assume this fall, because that’s what people love.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, you’re right. It’s gonna be just like the BlackBerry keyboard the millions upon millions of people that are clinging to that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Also a real-time follow-up. I don’t know. I think I might have said tactic. I meant haptic. So thanks to the chat room for correcting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me. And thank you for the 35 people that are listening to this after the fact and have already emailed me to correct me.

⏹️ ▶️ John I thought you meant tactile. But anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That too. I think I kind of combined those in my head. But anyways.

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⏹️ ▶️ John We need to get Apple to send WWDC videos to because I would love to be able to click on a spot in a transcript

⏹️ ▶️ John because Apple’s got the transcripts right and there’s that guy who took the transcripts and made that ASCII WWDC site but

⏹️ ▶️ John you can search them. We just need to put put it all together Linda style. I want the transcript on the left, the video on the right, and I want to be able to click

⏹️ ▶️ John on the transcript and have it jump to the spot of the video. That would make my life so much easier.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, or even like I was thinking, I’ve been like noodling in my head another idea I don’t have time to do, but I would love

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to just make an app, just make like probably a Mac app that it would be like you’re watching the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco videos and it would, you know, you could like, you know, star the ones you want to watch. It would keep track of the ones you did watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You could search, you know, search for topics, search for APIs.

⏹️ ▶️ John The WWDC app does that now, doesn’t it? Yeah. track of what you watch keep track of your playback position

⏹️ ▶️ John across

⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices oh really well I guess only if you watch in the app I don’t ever been tried

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crap

⏹️ ▶️ John all right well I didn’t make it but it doesn’t do the transcript thing that’s what I’m saying it’s the next step

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah like why can’t you just hit command F and and go right to something like you have to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like browse for the titles and figure out what do they call the you know the accessibility section this year like what do they call that you know

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s why note taking is still a big thing for me WWDC because the slides have like seven words on them and the person

⏹️ ▶️ John on stage speaks important information that’s not in the slides and it was particularly bad this year I

⏹️ ▶️ John thought where all the real information was spoken it wasn’t even like hinted at in the slides the slide would have

⏹️ ▶️ John like one word on it and then the guy would talk for 10 minutes like oh this is the stuff so I had to write that down because you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John when I can’t for research purposes I can’t go back to the video and watch it in real time because it takes forever

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to have the notes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well that’s the other thing too the one thing that’s extremely valuable with watching these videos is the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco variable speed playback in QuickTime Player 7 and I’m probably like VLC and everything else does too,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I think QuickTime X does not do it. So you can, you know, just like a podcast,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can play these videos at like 1.5x and it helps a lot because the WBDC sessions are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty slowly paced because they want everyone in a room full of people, many of whom English is not their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first language. They want everyone to understand it and to be able to keep up, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a giant room And that’s very different when you’re watching a video at home, and especially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re looking for something specific or waiting for something specific that you know they mentioned or that you think they might have mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you want to skip around a bit and play through sections fast. And it’s so nice to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco able to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I remember the earlier I said it wasn’t making fun of Google’s inability to do presentations

⏹️ ▶️ John is not a productive avenue. But since we’re talking about WWDC, the most obscure,

⏹️ ▶️ John out of the way, in the tiny little room in the corner of Moscone about some API and

⏹️ ▶️ John framework that nobody uses except 10 people. That person’s presentation and demos were better

⏹️ ▶️ John than everything at Google I-O. If they’re an engineer who is not a professional presenter

⏹️ ▶️ John at WWDC, at the very least, goes through some sort of regime where they make them make your slides comprehensible

⏹️ ▶️ John to the point where they work on everything they say, where they make sure the demos are tight, where they get them done.

⏹️ ▶️ John It just amazed me how the Google I O presenters for the most part did not even get the basics

⏹️ ▶️ John right They rambled their slides had too much stuff on them. They tried demos. It didn’t work. Well, even

⏹️ ▶️ John if the demos had worked well They wouldn’t be demonstrating anything worth demonstrating. It was not a good showing

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I don’t think that’s important except for in the sort of, you know Fun giggly Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John snark type nature of the thing, but it’s at a certain point Google should get better at that

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you think they really care? They do they’re trying you can tell the early parts of the presentation

⏹️ ▶️ John I thought we’re together like when what’s his name Sundar? I can’t remember his

⏹️ ▶️ John last name such as the P when he was up there talking about Android The slides had bullet points that were important. He would

⏹️ ▶️ John address each one of them. There wasn’t too much going on Like it was it was

⏹️ ▶️ John straightforward and to the point but it just started Meandering and things started going wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like I said, even if every demo that had gone wrong had gone perfectly I still don’t think those are the right demos to have

⏹️ ▶️ John especially not in the keynote.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hey real-time follow-up from Sam the geek in the chat room

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apparently quick time player X does have variable speed playback It’s in the extremely discoverable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if he extremely discoverable position of option clicking the fast forward button Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how does anybody even know that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have no idea? I saw underscore do it on the plane and I was like wait How did that just happen and then he had to show me because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you said I had no idea what it was

⏹️ ▶️ John QuickTime Player X doesn’t have the most important feature, which is get the freaking controller off of my video!

⏹️ ▶️ John The most important feature.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Still missing, which is why I still have

⏹️ ▶️ John QuickTime Player 7 installed, and that’s what I still use.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, is there anything else on Google I O? They say 60 frames per second this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They also say this year is the year of desktop Linux.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, and Duke Nukem Forever finally came out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, actually it did. It did.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then Android TV iteration 9 is here. And so that’s going to set the world aflame.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, eventually they’re going to have to get those in some TVs. I mean, man,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the previous Google TV and somebody in the chat, I’m sorry, I forget who and it’s too far up to scroll now. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco somebody in the chat pointed out like it’s kind of confusing, like the branding between like, OK, what’s Google, what’s Android, what’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Chrome? You know, they have and, you know, John, you mentioned earlier that that Google is better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at having this like cohesive cross device experience. And honestly, I don’t think that’s the case. I mean, if you look at things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, the Chromecast and Chromebooks and versus Android

⏹️ ▶️ Marco versus Google services, like it’s it’s pretty fragmented, actually.

⏹️ ▶️ John The naming of the things is bad. But first of all, if you’re just comparing is Apple, which is what I’m doing, they went on

⏹️ ▶️ John TV because Apple doesn’t have a way for third parties to do anything on TV. So Google wins by default, right? Even if

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re ignoring like that, I think also Google’s interfaces they showed on their television are better than Apple TV ones.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV is not a platform for anybody except for selected Apple partners. So they went there. And the second thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is, Apple, Google’s big thing is web apps and stuff. And so that’s their, you know, that’s their platform.

⏹️ ▶️ John You may not like it, you may think native apps are better, but they’re working hard to make you know, like this new UI,

⏹️ ▶️ John for example, is available to web apps at 60 frames per second in Chrome, and Chrome runs

⏹️ ▶️ John on all their devices from the Chromebooks to you can run it on your phone, you can run on your tablet, it runs on your television,

⏹️ ▶️ John like that’s their unifying force. And Android runs on on most of these things except for the Chromebooks. But

⏹️ ▶️ John their whole thing is web app, native app, doesn’t matter. It’s going to look the same if it comes from Google.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re telling you that we think it’s going to perform the same with 60 frames per second animation. That’s their strategy.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I give them the win over Apple because Apple has nothing on television except for this box

⏹️ ▶️ John that only does selected things. And they just don’t have that unification across platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I said, the iOS OS X split is going to get a lot better in Yosemite

⏹️ ▶️ John and iOS 8, but that’s not quite here yet. But even there, the split is much larger than the split between,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, the Chrome OS and Android, simply because Google is a web company. And their whole big thing is

⏹️ ▶️ John web apps. And they shouldn’t be second-class citizens to native apps. They continue to be, but Google

⏹️ ▶️ John is really hammering on making that not be the case. And if it’s going to not be the case somewhere, the first place it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ John to not be like that is on Google’s platforms, because Google is highly motivated to make web apps feel and look

⏹️ ▶️ John just as good as native apps.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Something we skipped before we leave Google I.O. is apparently Gmail has a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey RESTful API now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I put that in the notes because everyone’s freaking out about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, everyone’s freaking out saying that this is going to replace IMAP. And I’m the first person

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say that, yeah, I would not assume that Gmail IMAP support will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be there for very much longer. In fact, I made a prediction. I forget exactly what time interval I said. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco within two or five years, I was pretty sure that it that CalDAV and Gmail IMAP

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would both be discontinued or sunset or whatever whatever phrase they would use but but they say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know with this particular case of the Gmail API I know that Google has actually explicitly said this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not supposed to replace IMAP.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. Of course they can they can say whatever they want but I think in this case they’re probably telling the truth that they probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do not intend this thing to replace IMAP but what this probably will do though is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe hasten the ability for them to just you know iMap in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a marketable way because they hate iMap access they really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do they they I’m sure they can’t wait to get rid of it I mean there’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like if you think about every all the ways that that Google operates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes money innovates you know Gmail and iMap have never gotten along very well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco IMAP support in Gmail has always been pretty flaky and unreliable and slow and very limited

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because a lot of Gmail’s features just don’t fit in the model of what IMAP is and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how IMAP has to represent the mailboxes and everything. And there’s always like the hack of like the all messages mailbox

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all sorts of crazy stuff that just, it just causes problems. And so, uh.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You say all that and I know that there’s some amount of truth there, but I use Google

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps for my domain and I use IMAP and maybe I’m just not a Gmail power

⏹️ ▶️ Casey user, but I almost never have any problems. I really don’t. And I agree with you that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s contrary and counter to the way they make money, which is for me to be on the website

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looking at their ads, but I’m never on the website. I’m very rarely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the website, anyone on the Gmail website, because I have no particular need for it. I don’t particularly fancy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the web interface. I know I’ve ever last I heard John, I know you do, and that’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I am just fine with the iOS mail app. I’m just fine with mailbox on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac. And I use IMAP constantly for Google apps. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really don’t have any big problems.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, like Marco said, IMAP has never been a good fit for the way Google does email.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John certainly not. So like when I first saw this API, I was excited because of what I thought it meant was that Google

⏹️ ▶️ John was finally getting rid of IMAP. And I think the reason Google should get rid of IMAP, or slowly

⏹️ ▶️ John phase it out, is not to cut off third party clients or whatever. In fact, that’s the reason they’ll probably have to keep it

⏹️ ▶️ John around forever, just if they want to continue to support customers and clients that use IMAP. But

⏹️ ▶️ John just because it’s a poor fit for their mail service. Their mail

⏹️ ▶️ John acts in a different way than IMAP expects mail to act. And I like the way Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ John acts. I was like, all right, well, so fine. Keep IMAP around for the legacy clients. make a new fancier API

⏹️ ▶️ John that works the way Gmail works. And they make it faster, make it not just a better match semantically,

⏹️ ▶️ John but make it be able to do things with higher performance like search or bulk operations and

⏹️ ▶️ John all this good stuff. But then I looked at the documentation, and in the first couple paragraphs

⏹️ ▶️ John of documentation, it says, note, the Gmail API should not be used to replace IMAP for full-fledged email client

⏹️ ▶️ John access. So that’s straightforward right there in the very first thing in the Gmail API documentation.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you are writing what they consider what they call a full-fledged email client, don’t use this. Use IMAP.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s a shame. Then now, it’s just like, oh, this is just a way for applications that want to do something with mail

⏹️ ▶️ John to be able to send mail through your Gmail account. And it’s nice because you can only ask for permission to send,

⏹️ ▶️ John not to read. And then your app can send out through Gmail using this API instead of doing it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s a good idea to have this API, but it becomes much less interesting when they’re saying right out, it is not for making

⏹️ ▶️ John an email client. So that alone means that either iMap has to stay around for a much longer

⏹️ ▶️ John time, or eventually Google phases out iMap and says, no, you have to go through the web UI. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it would be difficult for Google to go back on iMap at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is kind of a left turn here. And I had a possibly different thought the other day.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You look at things like the proliferation of apps taking over from websites

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for where modern interaction computing is really happening these days combine that with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Android with its intense Windows 8 with its contract and now iOS 8 with its

⏹️ ▶️ Marco extension system our API is necessary anymore

⏹️ ▶️ John yes why because I mean for web services if you if

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to interact with something that’s not on the same device as you are like HTTP

⏹️ ▶️ John APIs for things like everything, reading Twitter, posting to Twitter, getting email,

⏹️ ▶️ John any of the existing native code systems for allowing

⏹️ ▶️ John one application on the same machine to communicate to another don’t apply to, I mean, like that’s the unifying

⏹️ ▶️ John principle of Google is that they would instead say the opposite and that like everything should be like a web

⏹️ ▶️ John app and everything should communicate through RESTful APIs even if it’s on the same machine and really it it shouldn’t matter where your thing is hosting

⏹️ ▶️ John it, everything should all be the web and blah blah blah. That’s obviously not the path that Apple’s going down or Google

⏹️ ▶️ John for Android. But APIs are definitely still a thing, both remote and local.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, think about how many of those instances you just mentioned. I mean, certainly, there’s always going to be some that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t be done this way. But think about how many of the things you just mentioned could be like, rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than call in the Gmail API, just, you know, the user will probably have the Gmail app on their phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they use Gmail. So just call it to the Gmail app and have it do something and then, you know, kick back to you or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What does the Gmail app do?

⏹️ ▶️ John It calls

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the Gmail API because the

⏹️ ▶️ John Gmail servers are on the other side of an HTTP connection.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, sure. Well, okay. I mean, public APIs, obviously. Like, public web service APIs,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, do those really need to be a major thing anymore? Like, you know, could you plausibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch a new web service today with, you know, that has some kind of social everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without an API? I mean, people do all the time. But like, how far could could you go without having an API?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And are we at a point now where having an API is the exception not the rule? Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know five or ten years ago everything had to have an API. That was what people did and you wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco become big if you didn’t have an API. I think that’s still true

⏹️ ▶️ John though. Twitter is a great example which got big based on its API and now wants to essentially cut everybody off from it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they wouldn’t have gotten big without the API. So I don’t know. I think that avenue to getting big,

⏹️ ▶️ John I I think it’s still required to get big. If you have some great thing, but you

⏹️ ▶️ John say, but there’s no API, but we’ve made selected private libraries that use an API that you’re not allowed to use.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you can put those libraries or apps on your devices and kind of like, I don’t think you would get big like that. It would

⏹️ ▶️ John be like not being free in the beginning and charging everybody tons of money. I think the track here to get big

⏹️ ▶️ John is to try to at least make a show of, look, we’re part of the community and you can interoperate with us. And we have this great API

⏹️ ▶️ John and really encouraging people to build on you. Yeah, sure. If you’ve got a service and we’ve got a service, our services

⏹️ ▶️ John should talk to each other, we should integrate, it’ll be great, we’ll have these great synergies. And then when you get big, then you can start turning the

⏹️ ▶️ John screws and cutting everybody off and charging money for API access and all those wonderful things that we love to hate.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So are you saying, Marco, that let’s take an example that you’re in a Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app and or let’s take Instagram, perhaps you’re in Instagram, and you want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to tag a photo with location and you want to do that using the Foursquare

⏹️ ▶️ Casey API, rather than have some sort of view within

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Instagram app, you could dump out to the Foursquare extension that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lets you search and then the Foursquare extension will take the location that you’ve selected and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey punt it back to Instagram. Is that sort of what you’re envisioning?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Basically, yeah. Like I’m looking at this from the perspective, not of, you know, what’s best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for everybody technically, but what’s most likely to be best for everyone business wise, and what are they most likely to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do? And, you know, you can look, you know, john, but you know, what you just said about how APIs are kind of the requirement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to, you know, for good growth. I’m not sure that’s true anymore. I mean, it look at look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at big services that have launched like in the last five years, many of them don’t have an API,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many of them launched without one and now have one that’s kind of half that half-assed or or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even like extremely restricted like even Google Plus Google’s own service I mean it’s not a good example

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it you know kind of failed but even Google Plus launched with a very limited

⏹️ ▶️ Marco read-only API and if it didn’t even did it even have that at first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway I know when they launched the API whether it was that launch not when they launched the API it was read-only and I think it might still be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Instagram perfect example got huge and they had a very limited API that I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was usually read-only for almost everybody at the beginning. And it’s easy, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco APIs have a big problem. This is the problem Twitter faced, which is it becomes very hard to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco monetize if you become a dumb pipe unless you do, you know, sometimes you can do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco creepy things, but for the most part like if you, if people, if your API is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mostly an accessory to your service and people still keep coming to you and using your apps and your website

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the primary interaction with your service, that’s fine. But if the API becomes your service,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and people are really only interacting with you through the API, it’s very challenging to run a business that way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for certain business models, and certainly anything free and ad based. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I think we can look back at the golden era of web API is in like the mid 2000s, when everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had an API, and everyone was talking about them as being like the big requirement. We can look back at that time, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can say, you know, actually, in retrospect, that was kind of a problem. A lot of those APIs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that used to be free and naive are now super locked down and limited.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s pretty easy to see that that was giving away too much of the farm. Whereas now, I’m sorry

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I’m mixing metaphors there, whereas now we have this other way where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you, the service provider, can have these apps on these different platforms. You don’t need to cover that many

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them. You can have these apps on these different platforms that all have these ways to offer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco API like services to other apps without actually giving up the farm without actually losing that much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco control and and you know while keeping everything locked down and private for the most part behind the scenes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there’s a line between not having an API and having and becoming an API

⏹️ ▶️ John only pipe like and we see that we see Twitter and that continuum and they’ve been the beginning was like yeah, sure, everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John build on Twitter, everyone make your own crazy clients. We want all sorts of different clients we want, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John any place you can talk to our you our API, it’ll do. And then they, you know, becoming the dumb pipe where most people’s

⏹️ ▶️ John interaction with Twitter was not through anything that Twitter controlled. That’s one extreme. But the other extreme is not having one at all. Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John still has an API, right? At the very least, they would have some kind of API for like,

⏹️ ▶️ John embedding tweets and putting little controls and buttons. I mean, you can say, Oh, that’s not an API, but it is it’s a public API, put this

⏹️ ▶️ John markdown on your page, post to this URL, make these buttons run this JavaScript, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John there has to be an API. It just doesn’t have to be like, you want to encourage people

⏹️ ▶️ John to integrate with your product. You don’t necessarily want to encourage people to become your product. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the API use people have learned, you know, like you said, don’t become a faceless

⏹️ ▶️ John API because then you become, right? Don’t let everyone else define the experience of using your

⏹️ ▶️ John product. It’s the same way as like Apple, you know, taking control of its dev tools. Don’t let

⏹️ ▶️ John Metroworks and Code Warrior and PowerPlant become the face of your platform because then you’ve lost control. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John think you have to have some kind of web-based API if you want to interoperate with the

⏹️ ▶️ John wider world, because you’re never going to hit every platform. And realistically speaking, the little libraries and apps

⏹️ ▶️ John that you make for all the different platforms are going to have to be hitting an API anyway. And if they can hit it, then other people are going to hit

⏹️ ▶️ John it. And do you really want to get into some kind of security war about having secret API endpoints

⏹️ ▶️ John that people have to figure out how to hack into? So they’re just going to use OAuth or something anyway. Anyone can do it. It’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John a matter of getting an API key, and then they extract it. It’s just, I think APIs

⏹️ ▶️ John will still be here, but I think you’re right that the lesson has been learned by several people in a painful way.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t make your API the only thing you offer because then other people will become your product for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But is that so bad? I mean, there’s sponsored posts in Instagram and Twitter and whatnot.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I haven’t seen them pushed on me in Tweetbot, for example, but there’s nothing stopping them from being pushed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on me, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we’re in the minority of people who are not using the official. as crazy as it is for us

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey to think about. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re right. That we don’t use the official Twitter app, but I bet, what would you say, what

⏹️ ▶️ John do you think, most people who use Twitter at all use the official Twitter app

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey on their old devices?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No

⏹️ ▶️ John question. And like, we are an oddity because we were there early, we don’t look at Twitter that

⏹️ ▶️ John way, and Twitter, thus far to Twitter’s credit, has been like, okay, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, they shut the door on us. We are in a little room together with our limited API tokens from the

⏹️ ▶️ John apps that were there in the beginning, And no one bothers us, and they just don’t have to worry about us.

⏹️ ▶️ John All our growth is with those other people. They could have said, you know what? Third party stuff is turned

⏹️ ▶️ John off. Now you have to use this official client. And I don’t think it actually would have hurt them that much, because all of us would have left and been

⏹️ ▶️ John pissed. Maybe the problem is all of us might have all gone to and actually made that a viable platform or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John But in the grand scheme of things, we don’t matter. And so I’m glad that Twitter is not shoving

⏹️ ▶️ John stupid crap down our throats. But I’m kind of sad that we’re never going to get multiple images or

⏹️ ▶️ John these other features they’re adding and now they got that already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s into that’s in tweet but now

⏹️ ▶️ John is it yep I thought that wasn’t even available to third-party clients

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well you can view multiple images I don’t know if you can post them

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah well anyway they’re adding features and they don’t care if third-party if it’s available for their legacy

⏹️ ▶️ John third-party ones and so I it doesn’t surprise me that they’re not making us choke down ads because who cares about

⏹️ ▶️ John us we’re off in the corner somewhere and it’s probably the best move for them not to anger us anymore and just allow

⏹️ ▶️ John us to stew in our and our little private third party Twitter clients.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, anything else we need to talk about? There’s a little bit of talk that we kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of skipped over about Swift and Apple. I think, John, this was mostly you. Do you want to touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, I want to talk about ART briefly first, before the Swift thing. ART was in the thing. ART

⏹️ ▶️ John is not a new thing. It’s something that they introduced in KitKat. But now it’s official for their new

⏹️ ▶️ John OS. This will be their new runtime that they’re using instead of the previous Dalvik virtual machine.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is them refining, I mean, not that I’m saying this is their answer to

⏹️ ▶️ John Swift and iOS and the A7 and all that stuff, but they’re feeling pressure

⏹️ ▶️ John to have a more performant, less battery sucking engine underneath their

⏹️ ▶️ John platform. So the language they use is Java for development. They had their own Java virtual machine that they wrote

⏹️ ▶️ John themselves, which is kind of novel, called Dalvik, that they’ve had for many, many years. This new

⏹️ ▶️ John one is a new virtual machine that is better about memory management and has

⏹️ ▶️ John fewer stalls for garbage collection, shorter stalls for garbage collection, produces better code that

⏹️ ▶️ John runs faster on all the CPUs they target. I think they listed ARM, x86, and MIPS.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they showed a bunch of performance figures showing how this is better. So I’m glad to see that

⏹️ ▶️ John Google is making progress on sort of the fundamental lowest level of that platform to make

⏹️ ▶️ John their applications faster. And it shows the advantages that they have of

⏹️ ▶️ John having a memory safe language in a virtual machine and that this change, this fairly radical change under the cover,

⏹️ ▶️ John does not require any changes in anyone who wrote their application using Java.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you use their API and wrote the thing, you don’t have to know or care about this. They just made your runtime faster. Whereas compare this to Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John which has made the Objective-C runtime faster many times over, but you’d always have to relink your app against

⏹️ ▶️ John it or use certain features like fast enumeration. You have to change your source code to use them. I

⏹️ ▶️ John guess when they improve Objective-C message send, Everyone gets the benefit when they recompile against new libraries, but then it was only

⏹️ ▶️ John available 64-bit and blah blah blah. Anyway, I’m glad to see Google making progress there,

⏹️ ▶️ John mostly because I like the idea of virtual machine-based languages. I guess I’ll probably have

⏹️ ▶️ John more to say about that when I do the Swift section of my iOS 10 review.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How’s that coming, by the way?

⏹️ ▶️ John Slowly as always. Slowly and painfully.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week. labs, Squarespace and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we will see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John and if you’re into twitter you can

⏹️ ▶️ John follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s that’s Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Liss m-a-r-c-o-a-r-m b-n-t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Armin s-i-r-a-c-u-s-a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Syracuse it’s accidental I could have put the Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing in before the song.

⏹️ ▶️ John You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, you can tell how unprofessional we are because here it is, I queue up John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to talk about A, he talks about B, and then before we get back to A, we end the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco show. Can it fit in the after show? It can be like, follow down?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I can throw it in.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just, it’s a reward for the people who keep listening. This is still on topic, but hey, you made it through the song

⏹️ ▶️ John and here we are on the other side. This is your reward. Yeah. It was something I’ve been thinking

⏹️ ▶️ John about since WWDC, about how Apple is being more open with things.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’ve seen things from Apple since WWDC that I had not seen from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John in years and years and years, maybe not ever in the second Steve job era, like after 97.

⏹️ ▶️ John That is the phenomenon of Apple employees saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John in a more or less official capacity, something that Apple is going to do

⏹️ ▶️ John in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we saw that today, which I think you’re about to bring up.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, and not just today. I’ve seen it many, many times since WWDC. The one, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I keep seeing it, which is blowing my mind. The one today was like Mike Ash did a blog post about Swift. Chris Latimer

⏹️ ▶️ John responded to the blog post and said, that thing you were complaining about, we’re going to change that,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is basically talking about an unannounced product. And I’ve seen that multiple times about

⏹️ ▶️ John nerdy technology. It’s not like, oh, we’re making a watch. Like, they’re not going to say that, right? But about nerdy

⏹️ ▶️ John technology, it’s the only developers care about. But developers are willing to say, like, oh, yeah, that API

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t exist for whatever, but we’re going to make it like we’re going to introduce it before GM. Or that feature you

⏹️ ▶️ John asked for, we’re doing that right now. Not sure when it’s going to be done. That’s, you know, Apple does not

⏹️ ▶️ John comment on future products. But apparently Apple now comments on future technologies. I mean, WFC being open, anyone

⏹️ ▶️ John being able to watch the videos and actual Apple engineers saying what is, you know, this is not

⏹️ ▶️ John exciting or surprising to anyone who deals with any company other than Apple. But historically,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple engineers would never say anything, even like the most obscure little thing like I think this this

⏹️ ▶️ John argument to this method should accept nil and it shouldn’t be an error. And you just have to sit there and wait until

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually like your bug was closed or just a release comes out and that’s in the release notes. Instead, today, an

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple engineer will say, yeah, we’re in the process of doing that. It’ll be in the next build.

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess that has happened to some degree like on the dev forums in past builds and stuff like that. But this is about something big. Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John is bigger than just one obscure API. Swift is a whole language. And on the dev forums,

⏹️ ▶️ John for example, people are complaining about missing features in the Swift language. And people who are writing Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John are coming on the dev forums and saying, you’re right, that feature is missing. We’re adding it now. It will be there soon. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about future products is just blowing my mind. This is happening in any second. I expect a black helicopter to come in

⏹️ ▶️ John and like close the thread and delete the post and everything. And, you know, so that’s a dev forum. So

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re technically under an NDA, which I wasn’t. So just why I wasn’t talking about details. This was on a public blog post. I

⏹️ ▶️ John forget what was the thing that he was talking about in there was, oh, a race semantics being crazy, which they are. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John it was vague. It was like, we know they’re crazy. We’re going to try to fix it. Yeah. Thumbs

⏹️ ▶️ John up. See, was that that hard apple to the world and, you know, and like if they don’t fix it is everyone going to go on there

⏹️ ▶️ John well I totally expected you to fix the crazy eraser magics because you saw that comment on that blog post but you didn’t fix

⏹️ ▶️ John it I hate you Apple like that’s the that’s the thing they’re protecting against and I suppose that could happen if

⏹️ ▶️ John Yosemite ships and iOS 8 ships and Swift’s eraser man is just still crazy pants then people are gonna like

⏹️ ▶️ John cite that blog post and say we can’t trust you Apple you say things but then don’t do them I don’t know I just assume they’re just gonna do

⏹️ ▶️ John it and everything will be fine but it is definitely weird to

⏹️ ▶️ John see that and definitely a change for Apple. So what’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey downside to it for them?

⏹️ ▶️ John I just said the downside. The downside is if they don’t do this thing, then crazy people will be all cranky,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but is that really why they didn’t do it for all this time? I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, because you can’t predict the future. You don’t do it for all this time because if they say something and then they’re not able to deliver it, it

⏹️ ▶️ John breaks trust. So they just say nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I guess. But to your point about like developer tools

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are coming, who cares? Like, I just I don’t, I don’t really see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the need for all the secrecy up until this point. I applaud the the opening

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up that they’ve been doing lately. But I don’t know, it just seems like a pretty weak reason to be so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unbelievably secretive. It seems to me like the reason they were secretive is because they felt like it was cool to be secretive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If you’re secretive about products, you can be secretive about everything.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s not just about a cool factor. But like, it’s, you know, like someone just put in the chat room

⏹️ ▶️ John under promise and over It’s the safe bet. You will

⏹️ ▶️ John not disappoint people, you will only surprise them. Because the only way you disappoint somebody is by saying

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to do something and then not doing it. If you never say anything and you don’t do it, you haven’t disappointed anyone because they should

⏹️ ▶️ John have had no reason to expect that you were going to do something. But if you say you’re going to do something and don’t do it, then people are disappointed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But is that really true? I mean, I know the market isn’t really the best judge of anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey However, you know, anytime Apple doesn’t release a TV or a watch, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey market has a fit about it. And they’ve never said anything about doing any of those things.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s I think that would be a counterexample, because Tim Cook kept saying, we’re going to enter new product categories. So yeah, as soon as he says that,

⏹️ ▶️ John like a year ago, every time Apple does anything and doesn’t enter a new product category, you know, people will say

⏹️ ▶️ John you said you’re gonna enter a new product category, and you did something, anything, and

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing involved in that did not enter a new product category, therefore I hate you now, Apple. Who cares?

⏹️ ▶️ John This is more of the larger the feature, the less you’d want to say stuff like this.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you’re talking about this API is available, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s iOS 7 only. And if someone from Apple were to say, actually, we’re going to

⏹️ ▶️ John backport that to iOS 6 too, people would be like, oh, yeah, that’s awesome. I can’t wait until that happens. My app will be able to

⏹️ ▶️ John run on iOS 6 and 7 and use this cool new API. And then the OS comes out, and they say, sorry, we didn’t get time to backport

⏹️ ▶️ John that to iOS 6, and now we’re never going to. People would hate Apple. They’d be like, oh, you said you were going to. I planned my

⏹️ ▶️ John business around it. You’ve destroyed my livelihood. Or so they just say nothing. And they say,

⏹️ ▶️ John file a bug if you’d like to see that on iOS 6 or whatever. They don’t make any promises. They just don’t say anything. They

⏹️ ▶️ John say, every time you ask them a question, they say this API is available for iOS 7. But is it going to be on iOS 6? This API

⏹️ ▶️ John is available for iOS 7. That’s the old Apple way, and there are serious upsides to that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John at a certain point, it becomes ridiculous. As you get tinier and tinier, like, are you going to fix this typo in the documentation?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s no skin off Apple’s back to say, yes, we’re going to fix that typo in the documentation. In fact, I’m fixing it right

⏹️ ▶️ John now. You should see it in the next build. That’s always been under the line, like no big deal. But once you move

⏹️ ▶️ John from typos up until API features, API availability, language

⏹️ ▶️ John features, that’s starting to get into some serious territory. And this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new Apple, I think. And I applaud it. And I think Marco had said, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of us had said right before WWDC, that we didn’t really know crap about what was coming.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We knew Health Kit, which we thought was Health Book, and there were like one or two other things,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but certainly nobody knew Swift was coming. And that made it so much more enjoyable. I’m not saying Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shouldn’t be secretive about like product launches. I’m talking like you are, John, about this,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m going to call it minutiae, but perhaps it isn’t, but stuff that for the most part really isn’t going to make

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or break anyone. And yes, you just had an example of where it could break someone, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. I’m surprised it took this long for them to open up.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now, as a continuum, the one I think of also is 64-bit carbon, which they said they were going to have

⏹️ ▶️ John and then changed their mind on. And that’s just a bummer. It wasn’t like they didn’t have it almost all done,

⏹️ ▶️ John is my understanding, and it wasn’t like they didn’t plan on doing it. They did plan on doing it. They did say they were going to do it,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they changed their mind the next year. And that did really seriously affect people. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John secrecy wouldn’t have saved them there, because that was sort of like they said at WWDC that they’re going to have

⏹️ ▶️ John OS 10.10.10 and iOS 8. Those are speaking about future products. But we assume

⏹️ ▶️ John that those will actually arrive, that they won’t say, you know what, never mind about iOS 8. It seems like

⏹️ ▶️ John a safe bet. But technically, it’s exactly the same thing. We do not have this for you now. It is not completed, but

⏹️ ▶️ John we will. and making a comment about a feature in Swift, like saying, we agree that

⏹️ ▶️ John the array semantics are stupid. We are working on them, and we plan to have the better

⏹️ ▶️ John version of them available before any of our whatever operating systems ship. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a pretty concrete statement about something that’s going to happen. It’s probably not much more concrete

⏹️ ▶️ John than saying, iOS 8 is coming, and we’re going to ship it, and here’s the rough time frame. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it is definitely a change. Like, normally, they would just let the blogs all complain about stuff and Swift

⏹️ ▶️ John and secretly be over there saying all these people are complaining about, you know, feature X. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John we know that feature X has been checked in two weeks ago and we’re just like testing it out now and it’ll ship in the next

⏹️ ▶️ John seat and won’t those people be pleasantly surprised. But now those people can actually go on to the internet and tweet at the people. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John I just totally did that. Don’t worry, it’s coming.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And what else is going on? I think there’s a, uh, M three at the local

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dealer. I haven’t actually gone by yet, but I, why not? Yeah, because my car is actually going in Monday

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway So I’ll see you then and then I’ll probably steal it and get arrested and that’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be the end of ATP We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you in jail. All I know is I want an m3 really bad

⏹️ ▶️ John Sorry Luigi follow only the Ferrari What I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do my pop culture reference to the show. I stuck it in at the end Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I’ve seen that movie a million

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John times

⏹️ ▶️ John Yay, Marco has children soon Casey will to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a million times I know every line of that movie because I’ve seen it a million

⏹️ ▶️ Marco times

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to scream it from the top someplace very high

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hear you now you see I was going to say that how could that movie possibly get old? But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know enough to know that any movie could probably get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well. It’s actually a pretty good movie I mean, that’s that’s the I think that’s one of the reasons why adults love Pixar movies so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much is because if your kids are gonna make you watch the same movie every single day for three months it might as well be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pretty decent one

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah you don’t know how bad it can get like I mean you’re probably protecting yourself from it I and that thing is like

⏹️ ▶️ John cars people say it’s not one of the better Pixar movies and maybe I kind of agree there

⏹️ ▶️ John but lots of people who don’t have kids dislike it much more than I do because now in retrospect the memory of cars

⏹️ ▶️ John is entirely tied up with the memory of my son when he was young and watching that movie a lot and I think the same thing will happen to Marco

⏹️ ▶️ John and that that gives the movie a fondness that it wouldn’t have had if you had just seen it on your own. Just wait until

⏹️ ▶️ John Adam gets older and you remember when he was a little peanut and he would watch the movie over and over again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God, I love

⏹️ ▶️ John Cars.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cars 2 was freaking terrible though. I haven’t seen Cars 2 because I heard it was terrible. So I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just like, I’m not even buying that on the Apple TV. I’m just leaving that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off. Don’t do it. And the worst part is Michael Caine is in it and I love Michael Caine,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but the movie was still terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John The movie’s not terrible. Like you don’t know terrible until you’ve seen like Door of the Explorer or something like that. I mean, terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John is a whole other thing. movie is just meh it’s just there it’s all right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah that’s right i’ll have to put that one in the parking lot for now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly you want to do titles on one of the functional showbots which means not mine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah how about put that in the parking lot for now

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you’re obsessed with

⏹️ ▶️ John business speak terminology

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh it’s just i can’t like what planet is everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Marco, to put things in perspective, I went to a client

⏹️ ▶️ Casey today at what time was it? About nine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a 10 o’clock demo. That demo lasted half an hour. I spent half an hour

⏹️ ▶️ Casey dealing with security related things because it’s a new client, so I had to get fingerprinted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had to go swear that I had antivirus on my computer. and I needed to prove that I had an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey antivirus on my computer. Then I spent from 11.30 till

⏹️ ▶️ Casey five in consecutive meetings talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the work that has been done and the work that needs to be done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My God.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was from 11.30 until five in the evening.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco When does the Scrummer Fall standoff happen?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Actually, the end of, so it was a retrospective, which is part of Agile, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was sprint planning, which is part of Agile. But the problem is this is for a large government

⏹️ ▶️ Casey entity and I don’t think most of the business people in the room,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey these are our own internal business people, had had a lot of experience with doing agile

⏹️ ▶️ Casey software projects. And so it’s really kind of scrummerful at best.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s just bad. But anyway, so back to titles. Did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they have a parking lot?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, not today actually. How about a basement? you like put things in the basement ever? Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just the parking lot. What about like you know back behind the dumpster like is there? Nope. The alley is there an alley

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even? Nope. You can’t like throw something off the fire escape? No Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve got the same metaphors in iOS development basement UI you know just speaking of basement

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco same stuff. The hamburger basement metaphor.

⏹️ ▶️ John Exactly it’s the same exact thing why is that terminology okay but this terminology is not? Because we are right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my god that the most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco statement I’ve ever heard. In my defense, I don’t like the hamburger basement metaphor.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you use it because it’s a way to communicate with other people a shorthand. That’s exactly what buzzwords and lingo

⏹️ ▶️ John are supposed to do. You can say this and then be assured that everyone who you’re talking to knows what you mean without you having to

⏹️ ▶️ John explain it the long way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There was there was some time where I mentioned the hamburger basement on Twitter a few months back, and I got the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best responses from people who didn’t know what that was. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re just like, well, and they’re and they’re they were fulfilling your role now. I was like, is there an alley?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Blah blah blah. Anyway. I actually like Breaking Bots. I think that’s I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think it should necessarily be the show title, but it is pretty funny.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m also a big fan of I’m not getting one. There’s actually two of them, one with a period, one without. If you combine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their ratings, it’s probably even better.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you could you could up the working showbots features by doing better normalization and getting rid of

⏹️ ▶️ John trailing periods.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. I’ll get to that as soon as I can keep the thing running for more than 10 fricking minutes.

⏹️ ▶️ John You got one more show, Casey. This is like that old website, give

⏹️ ▶️ John up and use tables, which is like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco start a

⏹️ ▶️ John timer for you to try to do things back in the bad old days of CSS when you couldn’t do lots of stuff with CSS.

⏹️ ▶️ John You get one more show, and then Marco and I are going to force you to stop using WebSockets. And then four

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shows after that, you got to use Perl.

⏹️ ▶️ John Realistically speaking, we should have stopped you from using WebSockets before you started using

⏹️ ▶️ John them for a show bot, Because there’s no reason to use them except for technical curiosity. So we’ll give you an hour. We’ll give you a couple of weeks. Say, OK,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just want to do this because you’re just playing with things. You want to use WebSockets because they’re neat and cool. Fine. Go ahead. But at a certain point,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re just say, look, just make it work. Stop using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey WebSockets. But if you think about it, it’s the right answer. Leave.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it is not a persistent connection to the clients of like, no, it is not the right answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it actually is useful because it gives you the immediate feedback when new stuff comes in.

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t need to meet people staring at the show. I need to see if someone has changed a vote right now. You

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t. The latency on people looking at show voting does not need to be real time.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is not like a game or a simulation where we need feedback constantly. It’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ John appropriate technology for this purpose. You could have a five minute refresh interval and it would

⏹️ ▶️ John be fine. It’s just a show bot. It’s not a real time 3D

⏹️ ▶️ Casey application. John, the last time I said it’s just a show bot, It was about hardening said show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bot and we all saw how that ended

⏹️ ▶️ John But the web sockets are fighting against you in that area. Like they’re making it worse It’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a technology that either is not mature enough or I mean It seems like the libraries for dealing with our mature

⏹️ ▶️ John enough because if they were you wouldn’t be having all these problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just can’t imagine what the heck is going on behind the scenes here That’s causing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even the the worst crappiest slowest VPS in the universe to overload

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and crash

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not overloading, it’s just throwing an exception that nobody catches and then it kills it. Well, so then WebSockets aren’t the problem

⏹️ ▶️ John then. Well, it is because the exceptions are coming from within WebSockets. Exactly. As a

⏹️ ▶️ John third-party library, it’s throwing an exception that I guess you didn’t expect. I forget what the specifics of the bug were, but wasn’t it a bug in

⏹️ ▶️ John the actual WebSockets library?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just repasted the gist and it’s very vague where the actual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey problem is, but that’s all right.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right. Does C-sharp have exceptions, Casey? You’re just not accustomed to having to catch exceptions and deal with them?

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, there’s no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to be cruel.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John just saying like, she’s a wrap the whole thing and try catching at least keep the thing from going down.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, generally, I would prefer for this situation to die violently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and tell me exactly what’s going on. And I think actually, we got in a pretty big fight with Marco about this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. Well, no, it’s like turning that into Yes, turning it into fatal

⏹️ ▶️ John errors. You’re not turning warnings into fatal errors, you’re not doing anything with fatal errors. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s fine, for example, if you have a multiprocess model, to let your Apache child die because it had a fatal error. Because the

⏹️ ▶️ John whole server doesn’t go away then. Right, you don’t lose all of your data. The parent will just spawn

⏹️ ▶️ John another child, and the day will go on. But when it’s single process, and you’re not catching exceptions,

⏹️ ▶️ John and one comes along, your single process goes away. And that’s-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, we agree. We agree. But my point is just that if the error was something more specific

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, oh, somebody tried to send a 10,000 byte thing over

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this web socket, then I could take action on that and thus harden the system a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey better. What I’m going to do, however, since I didn’t get useful feedback is I’m going to add

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a try catch, if you will, or at least handle this error message,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey error event, and then call it a day because clearly I’m not getting anything useful from it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s like when, I mean, in any web server, if the client sends invalid method type or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John like you could make an HTTP request that’s malformed and your server should handle. Yeah, garbage client connected to

⏹️ ▶️ John me. He sent me something that looked kind of like an HTTP request, but actually it was invalid because the method it used doesn’t actually

⏹️ ▶️ John exist. And this header or it sent this method, but it didn’t have the required headers, but it claimed

⏹️ ▶️ John it was HTTP 1.1. Like either your library or if you’re not your library,

⏹️ ▶️ John then at least your app has to be resilient to people sending you garbage and you would think that would be the job

⏹️ ▶️ John of library like if you’re writing something on you know Apache platform or using mod PHP or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re assuming the Apache is gonna handle like the crazy invalid request and it’s never even gonna get to the point where it executes

⏹️ ▶️ John your PHP because the Apache is gonna return to 500 error and trigger your error page handling or whatever you want to do before it

⏹️ ▶️ John even gets to your thing but the WebSockets library is not doing that for you and we don’t even know if it’s because people are sending

⏹️ ▶️ John malformed WebSocket requests it could just be a bug in the library and people are sending perfectly valid

⏹️ ▶️ John WebSocket requests, and this is choking on it. Either way, it’s not good for your server. And if you just did everything the

⏹️ ▶️ John old-fashioned way with HTTP and AJAX, you wouldn’t be having this problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s possibly true. And I’d like to address something from the chat. Somebody said, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t understand how Casey could be a professional programmer. And I think it’s important to realize

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, A, I’m working in technologies that I’m not typically used to working in, insofar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as Node and WebSockets. But B, and more importantly, this something I threw together for fun in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a lot of time. I’m not being paid to do this, and I’m not doing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this for my job. I’m doing this just for grins and giggles and just to learn.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A lot of the things that I’m fighting, like people deliberately being malicious, are things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I don’t often run into in my day-to-day work. I would have put in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a crap load more time being defensive in my programming instead

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of being being defensive right now, and making sure all of these things were considered and taken

⏹️ ▶️ Casey care of and things of that nature. But A, I didn’t spend the time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on it. B, I still don’t think I should, but the chat room is a bunch of pains in my butt. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey C, this is not like my normal job. My normal job, I’m paid to consider

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of these possibilities and to spend the time to get all this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. And this is something I threw together in a sum total of like three or four hours. So it’s very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey different.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say, let’s not pretend this is not the way that the person who said that comment strikes me as someone

⏹️ ▶️ John who is not a programmer, because let’s not pretend this isn’t the way that all programming happens. It just may not happen

⏹️ ▶️ John in public. But this is how you write a program, guys. You try it, you find out how it’s broken, you fix it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like this is the process of programming. It’s just that he’s doing it sort of in public, where normally all this would

⏹️ ▶️ John be happening on your local computer as you write it and try to use it and it crashes and you write something else and you try to use it

⏹️ ▶️ John and it screws up and like that’s called programming.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think it would work better if you were running antivirus software on your Mac?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that

⏹️ ▶️ John antivirus thing like I mean I understand why people do that but that’s so insane to me that

⏹️ ▶️ John like people would insist that you have antivirus software on your Mac. I wonder if they make this if the same requirement

⏹️ ▶️ John applies to iPhones. Do you have antivirus software on that iPhone? I’m sorry it’s not it’s not qualified. We can’t use that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah well I mean again this is a government entity and I don’t know if you well John you should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know better than me even that government entities are things that are associated with the government. They tend to have just piles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and piles and piles and piles and piles of red tape, much of which is not understood

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by the people that enforce it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but they do change. Like my wife works in a place that has crazy requirements and it used to be that you couldn’t bring any

⏹️ ▶️ John device that had a camera anywhere. You know, you couldn’t bring a camera or anything that had a camera on it. And then when phones started

⏹️ ▶️ John to have cameras, you couldn’t bring any of the cameras, any phones with cameras in because that’s a camera, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ John at a certain point, all phones have cameras. And then it’s untenable to tell people, I’m sorry, you can’t bring your phone

⏹️ ▶️ John to work. And so they had to change the rules and say, OK, well, it’s obvious that we can’t. And it was an in-between period.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’d be like, well, BlackBerry makes a special model that doesn’t have phones in them for enterprise. And that’s what we’re going to force everyone to use.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, whatever. But now it’s like even

⏹️ ▶️ John the government has to eventually recognize. And so they did. And they said, OK, well, there’s certain areas where you can’t bring your phone

⏹️ ▶️ John or any camera, because we assume your phone has a camera. you can bring your phone to work and send and receive phone calls

⏹️ ▶️ John with it. So eventually, they’ll catch up. I bet they don’t require you to have antivirus

⏹️ ▶️ John software on your iOS device. But I bet in 2007, they sure did and were sad when you told

⏹️ ▶️ John them that makes no sense.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A place that I worked that did a lot of government contracting, for a long time, the official stance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was you may not have a camera phone. And this is right when, just like you said, when phones with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cameras started becoming prevalent. I believe they changed the policy. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s a tough thing. It’s a lot of stuff that Marco doesn’t have to deal with and probably doesn’t have the patience for.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And sometimes I wonder if I do too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I don’t think I could do that. I’ve never been in a job that had that kind of – well, except for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like my internship at Nationwide in college. But otherwise, I’ve never been in a job

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that had – because it’s like I’ve always been at these small companies where I can pretty much have whatever I want on my computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s the thing is for my company, it was I found it extremely egregious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when they instituted a you have to change your password every 90 days policy. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not trying to get into a security discussion about why that’s important or good or bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m at 60 days, Casey, right now, and in 2014. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, yeah, so I was really upset when that happened. But I mean, my computer, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wide open. I can do whatever the crap I want with it. The problem is that because I do consulting when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we work for and with clients, we have to generally speaking, not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey always, but usually roll with their rules. And their rules, when you work with either large government

⏹️ ▶️ Casey entities or large financial services companies, as my company tends to do, have tremendously

⏹️ ▶️ Casey strict and difficult rules. So it’s not that all the real world is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad, Marco. It’s just some parts. Just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the parking lots.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Just the parking lots. Are we done here? Yeah. Yeah. So buy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me an M3. Let’s go back to the important stuff. Get right on that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I’ll suffer through black just for you.

⏹️ ▶️ John What other color would you pick? Why don’t you get mustard, mustard yellow. It’s the official. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey God.

⏹️ ▶️ John mustard the official German color of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I think that should that should be the deal is if I if I get to buy you in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hurry I get to pick the color and you and you have to drive

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it oh no that’s fine just give me the right transmission for Christ’s sakes

⏹️ ▶️ John did you see by the way in the and speaking of the most recent car and driver more stuff for you Casey was that they have the 30 cars

⏹️ ▶️ John under $30,000 section I don’t know if I’ve gotten this one yet it’s got the white white car snark 30

⏹️ ▶️ John cars under 30 uh what the hell’s in the cover it’s got hot hatchback story I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s on the cover nothing interesting But anyway, my car’s right in there and 30 cars under 30. Just read what they

⏹️ ▶️ John say about it. They love it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, they’re wrong. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not. I think they called it nearly perfect.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They’re definitely wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not even you agree with that. I thought they said nearly. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, I’ve built my M3, I think. Is it like 75 grand? 75 to 50, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ John There are too many options on these BMWs. How do you like zero choices for anything? So it’s like well

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess I’m getting this interior color and this is like now looking at these leather colors trim colors

⏹️ ▶️ John BMW individual leather and trims like I don’t know what combinations look good. This is the problem with supercars They let you pick everything

⏹️ ▶️ John because they’re gonna hand build it for you anyway, and you’re paying them You know half a million dollars, but I’d be like I don’t know what looks good together

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s your job to decide what colors and and trims look good together because then you end up with rich people just picking like

⏹️ ▶️ John random combinations and now you’ve got a half a million dollar car with nothing that matches in it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right now that I’m depressed because I don’t want to spend $73,825 or $968 a month on a M3 I’m gonna go to bed. Also you would never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually pay their listed lease price you can negotiate way lower than that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but still. Marco go ahead and buy one for me I’ll drive it in black

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t care. I might even accept it if it had the stupid DCT

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that sounds like you’re changing your mind a little bit on the DCT that see that sounds a lot like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no I’d be willing to suffer through is what I’m saying I would not choose it myself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no but I’m saying like that that sounds a lot like you know this fish isn’t really that bad I kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey this one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John song like it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sounds like you’re changing finally like I’m winning you over there

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m proud to tell you that I continue to not know and have never known the title

⏹️ ▶️ John of any fish song would not recognize any fish songs have I heard them and despite You two continuing to discuss

⏹️ ▶️ John fish songs by title now. I also do not remember any of the fish songs

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey What

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are you talking about? I

⏹️ ▶️ John know one by title. I I wouldn’t recognize fish if I heard them on the radio I do not

⏹️ ▶️ John know a single title of a single song Dave Matthews, unfortunately, I know they’re their top 40 hits

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you mispronounced fortunately

⏹️ ▶️ John is my curse What mispronouncing fortunately? No, and

⏹️ ▶️ John knowing that Dave Matthews exists and knowing some of their songs.