Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

67: Tim Said, Man

WWDC predictions.

Episode Description:
  • We'll be guests on the WWDC live episode of The Talk Show: Tuesday, June 3, 6–9 PM. Get tickets here ASAP! John will be taking a plane... for you.
  • Follow-up:
  • If the "iPhone 6" comes in two sizes, which do you buy?
  • WWDC product-announcement predictions:
  • Drawing conclusions from the "To Be Announced" sessions in the WWDC schedule.
  • WWDC predictions for Mac OS X 10.10:
    • Just a visual refresh, or notable improvements to the core OS as well?
    • Apple shuffling engineers around to work on the new hotness while neglecting its established platforms and applications.
    • Modernization or replacement of AppKit, possibly by bringing the relevant parts of UIKit to Mac?
    • Is there any hope for a new filesystem, possibly by evolving Core Storage?
  • WWDC predictions for iOS 8:
    • Better inter-app communication:
    • Springboard enhancements?
    • Please kill Newsstand. Please. Just make them normal app icons.
    • Could Remote View Controllers and Background Refresh be used for widgets, live tiles, or dynamic icons?
    • Customizable default browser, mail app, etc.?
  • WWDC predictions for new or improved web services:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Marco global branding strategies.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did you just whip together a show bot in 20 minutes?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the only thing is I can’t get Ajax to work. Yeah, I

⏹️ ▶️ John saw that you used forms for the buttons.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, if I had like 10 more minutes I could get Ajax working, but I don’t, so here we are.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did you find IRC code somewhere? Or did you actually write that too?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, there’s no bot. There’s no bot. It’s literally just a form. I have no idea how to make an IRC bot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that was probably not going to fit in my 20 minute budget to build this thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was really starting to doubt my own self-worth when you said, oh my,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had to whip this together in 20 minutes. I’m thinking, how the hell did he get an IRC bot in 20 minutes? Node is like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the king of having, or queen or whatever, what have you, of having packages

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do everything under the sun. And I doubt I could whip together an IRC bot in Node in 20 minutes. You

⏹️ ▶️ John could. I could. You could just download the IRC bot library and you just instantiate

⏹️ ▶️ John it, give it a channel and a nickname and then tell it what to look for. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the library does everything for you, you know what I mean? It’s just a question of finding that library.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and try to find it for PHP.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, the ShowBot code is open-sourced, I think. You could have just… so why didn’t you use that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was racing people in the chat, seeing who could finish first. Me rewriting it, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them trying to get this installed because it’s a Ruby thing and it’s full of dependencies and all this other crap. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know how to host Ruby, so I figured I could rewrite it faster my hosted framework, then,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then the time it would take to figure out Ruby. I want

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make fun of you so badly, but I don’t know crap about Ruby.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. I mean, could you could you have set it up in 20 minutes on a server? Probably not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, goodness. All right. Well, apologies in advance if I’m cranky tonight.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m a little stressed out a lot a lot of things going on in the list household trying to keep it all under control, not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really succeeding. So to make me feel better, let’s start by making fun of PHP John

⏹️ ▶️ John what might you would know if you look at the notes I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was a little busy

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah and just a disclaimer up front this is not my normal voice this is my I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John sick voice I’ve done many podcasts with my I’m sick voice including I think like

⏹️ ▶️ John at least four of the six hours of Star Wars podcast and the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco incomparable

⏹️ ▶️ John I did for this voice but anyway we’ll get through this but just kind of a shame because next week we’re not recording

⏹️ ▶️ John an episode and presumably I’ll be better by then.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah. And speaking of, we’re recording on, what is today, Thursday the 22nd. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just like we talked about last episode, if we say something extraordinarily stupid, it’s because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of time shift issues, not because we’re actually unintelligent.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right. So quick follow up, a bunch of correction follow up. First one is that

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t notice this when we were recording the podcast, but when I listened back to it, I noticed that Marco made some

⏹️ ▶️ John bold claims about PHP being faster than JavaScript, that much people wrote in to tell us that this is not the case. If

⏹️ ▶️ John I had been paying better attention, I would have tried to call him on it. But apparently, I wasn’t. I was kind of surprised that

⏹️ ▶️ John you didn’t at the time. I didn’t even remember hearing it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As soon as I said it, I realized, yeah, this is probably wrong.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So Jinji sent us a bunch of links to benchmarks. We’ll put this one in the show notes, showing

⏹️ ▶️ John how incredibly slow PHP is compared to JavaScript. Then again, it has nothing to do specifically with the language.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just what we were talking about on that show. JavaScript has had so much engineering resources put towards making it fast.

⏹️ ▶️ John PHP less so.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the core PHP runtime seems like it’s been held together by sticks and duct tape for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco its entire lifetime.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s why Facebook was able to come in and make such a massive upgrade with HHVM performance.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My point was not that PHP is a fascist language. I didn’t mean to say that, that that was kind of me stumbling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco around my words, trying to say my actual point, my intended point, which was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that PHP, like, no one’s ever really complained that PHP is slow. It’s not like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the PHP being slow has never really been a problem for most people unless you’re operating at Facebook scale. It’s fast enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s not like performance has never really been PHP is problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the thing with all these language, quote, unquote, language performance benchmarks is they always end up doing stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John like they end up doing like integer and floating point math, Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And arrays of integers and floats and calculating fractals

⏹️ ▶️ John and playing the game of life and doing things that no one will ever ask one of these dynamic languages to do. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John if you try to do anything math related or anything with densely packed structures, of course

⏹️ ▶️ John the language that uses native ints and can use the add operation on your CPU is going to destroy

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing where every single variable is this crazy ass struct with a million different things in it. Best

⏹️ ▶️ John case scenario is a big struct. Worst case, it’s something even worse. Of course, you’re going to get slaughtered by

⏹️ ▶️ John someone doing, you know, native operations versus that. But these languages are used mostly to manipulate strings.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you do string manipulation stuff, like who can run regular expressions with

⏹️ ▶️ John Unicode handling against huge strings and intelligently replace things, then some

⏹️ ▶️ John of these dynamic languages, even the slow ones that don’t have a lot of attention paid to them, start

⏹️ ▶️ John looking a lot better. So I don’t pay too much attention to these benchmarks because every dynamic language gets 100 when

⏹️ ▶️ John you know calculating fractals and who cares because that’s not what they’re being asked to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right like what matters most in when you’re using one of these languages what matters most is like how much can it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco handle on servers in real life applications like how much how many concurrent connections

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many users you know how much can you fit you know per server per CPU unit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of performance or you know per dino if you’re on some virtualized thing you know how much can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much can it handle and that’s related to lots of things besides low level math performance.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s in those areas that almost all modern languages and frameworks do pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well at that. And you know, platforms and web servers and everything like their modern standards are pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high for that. And you know, you can go like Apache versus Nginx versus built

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in servers and stuff like that. And you can get into a lot of nitty gritty there. But the fact is, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all pretty fast these days, because they’re all pretty well designed. And, and all pretty much any language you use on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a reasonably hosted stack can handle a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s why node is such an interesting hack because it’s like, well, there’s this language that we’re all forced to use that tons

⏹️ ▶️ John of people have worked really hard to make fast. Why don’t we just use that on the server? Because then we can, you know, it’s the V8 JavaScript

⏹️ ▶️ John engine that Google wrote that’s super fast. We’ll just do that on the server. It sounds crazy, but it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, someone already did the work. So here’s a vaguely dynamic language that someone has already made fast

⏹️ ▶️ John for us. And then we can concentrate and do interesting things on top of that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let me interrupt you real quick. What you were saying about performance on dynos and whatnot reminds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me that I had somebody from Heroku reach out to me and say, hey,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we heard you talking about how I had thought that I’d hit some internal dashboard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because of the traffic I got via Marco about the post about Aaron being pregnant. Well, firstly,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I misread the URL and I do not think that that was an internal app and people from Heroku have since confirmed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that anyway. But secondly, somebody from Roku wrote me and I don’t have his name handy and I apologize,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but wrote me and said in so many words, your dino was well under control and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not really getting taxed that badly at all. And that was when Google Analytics was reporting roughly 500

⏹️ ▶️ Casey concurrent users in the real time tab and I think I got somewhere around 10

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or 15,000 hits over the course of that day that I posted that. So to your point,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the right situation, it’s really not that bad. is not that bad on the server side. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry, speaking of node.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we were talking about JavaScript modularization and the different systems

⏹️ ▶️ John for use. And I said that I thought Node.js used AMD. It doesn’t use CommonJS, which is another one

⏹️ ▶️ John of those standards. And there’s also someone pointed out to me the ECMAScript 6

⏹️ ▶️ John modules thing, the ECMA. ECMA is the, I don’t know what it stands for, but it’s the standard

⏹️ ▶️ John for JavaScript. And And they’ve been marching on making new standards for the language well ahead of

⏹️ ▶️ John what browsers are implementing. But if you look at the later ones, there’s a lot of interesting things in there, including a

⏹️ ▶️ John formal language-supported way to do modules. I

⏹️ ▶️ John have another link here in the notes to this ES6 module transpiler

⏹️ ▶️ John that lets you write your JavaScript using the ES6 module syntax

⏹️ ▶️ John and then compile it into either AMD or CommonJS modules. All of these things are trying to accomplish the same task,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, sort of provide, you know, keep things out of each other’s namespace and provide a formal

⏹️ ▶️ John interface for defining what a module is, what it’s named, what it exports and all that other stuff. So,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, it’s a great thing about standards. So many to choose from.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So additionally, you had mentioned, I don’t remember if it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the regular show or the quote unquote after show, but we had talked about iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey earbuds And you were devout in your, fairly devout in your belief that the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPhones do not come with earbuds. Marco and I explained that you were wrong. And then you had intended to go on a treasure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hunt for some of Tina’s earbuds. What was the result of that?

⏹️ ▶️ John I did find them. I asked her where the box was and she didn’t tell me. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John she didn’t want to tell me. On my own, I found the box

⏹️ ▶️ John and in the box, lo and behold, completely, you know, still in the little plastic shrink

⏹️ ▶️ John wrappy whatever stuff were the earphones with a clicker. I found the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John 5s box. I bet the ones in the 4s box are still there as well because again I have never seen one in this house so

⏹️ ▶️ John I think we’ve just never unpacked them. So I unpacked the 5s clicker and I was wearing it tonight

⏹️ ▶️ John when I was doing dishes and stuff. I don’t know if it’s going to solve my problem because it already has two

⏹️ ▶️ John issues I see with the little clicker thing. Well, that’s three. One issue which

⏹️ ▶️ John is not really the fault of the iPhones, I think, is the headphones, I think, is that

⏹️ ▶️ John I get a little bit of like static, like when I twist, if I just twist the little connector, I get a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit of crinkly static, and maybe I have some dirt or something inside my iPod Touch’s headphone connector that

⏹️ ▶️ John only shows up with like the, you know, that like the little plug has little extra segments for the clicker, the contacts.

⏹️ ▶️ John That contact might be a little bit screwed up, so that’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It shouldn’t be audible, because I believe it just uses the microphone contact for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know what it is about these, But if I put on my regular headphones, I don’t hear any clicking. And this

⏹️ ▶️ John is just in my pocket. I wasn’t intentionally doing it. I took it out and I said, what the hell is that? And if I just twist it, I can hear crinkle, crinkle.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So

⏹️ ▶️ John who knows? It’s probably just dirt or something inside my connector. What can you do?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Could also be that earbuds are pieces of crap.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, would you stop it with that? Earbuds are not bad,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John or not good, rather.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just listening to podcasts, who cares? The second thing is, and I understand why

⏹️ ▶️ John this did this because there’s a microphone in it, I really wish that the clicker was lower down on the thing. because I don’t want to reach up

⏹️ ▶️ John that high to click, I’d rather click lower down. But obviously, if they’re going to make it a mic, they have to make

⏹️ ▶️ John it up higher. So I kind of understand why they did that. And the third thing is also related to where it is. It means that one

⏹️ ▶️ John of the earphones has different weighting and different sort of, when I turn my head around and everything, one of

⏹️ ▶️ John the things is going to fly out and pull out more because it has an extra weight on it there. And it makes my right ear,

⏹️ ▶️ John the earbud in my right ear, start to work its way loose faster and more aggressively than the one

⏹️ ▶️ John in my left ear does. And I find that a little annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow. It is of no surprise to me that you have immediate complaints. Also, I should note that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I’m correct using your pods, is that right? Is that what they call the new earbuds?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah. The weird the weird ones that have that don’t have a rubber gasket around them and they kind of like go

⏹️ ▶️ John into your ear.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. Whereas the four s I believe came with the old earbuds, which didn’t have a formal name to my recollection.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I like the ear pods that they fit my ears reasonably well. And I like the idea

⏹️ ▶️ John that there’s not anything that’s going to wear off on them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s not true at all. It just might take a little bit longer.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, what’s going to come off though? There’s no, there’s no, like, it’s just a solid piece of plastic, well, two solid pieces of plastic. I suppose

⏹️ ▶️ John the two pieces of plastic could come apart, but that seems much less likely than that stupid rubber thing coming off.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I mean, the way, the way most headphones die is internal fraying of the cable where it meets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the headphone. Um, that’s, or occasionally where it meets the jack end, but usually it’s the headphone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end. Um, almost always because that’s just, you know, it’s one of those strain boot points and the train boots never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really do that much and that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve never had a pair of earpods and I didn’t have the original iPod. I believe

⏹️ ▶️ John the first one I got was the terrible one with the four touch buttons on it. I guess that was the third generation

⏹️ ▶️ John or something. Anyway, I’ve never had a pair of Apple earbuds go bad. They all still

⏹️ ▶️ John work. So I think I’m really gentle on them. And speaking of being gentle on them,

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the things people were suggesting to solve the problem of like, you know, when someone walks up to you got to fish the

⏹️ ▶️ John iPod out of your pocket and turn it off if you don’t have the clicker or whatever. So don’t just yank the headphone jack out because

⏹️ ▶️ John that’ll stop playback. Yeah, it will but you’ll destroy your headphones doing that. You probably destroy the jack too, but you’ll definitely

⏹️ ▶️ John destroy the headphones. They’re not designed to be yanked out repeatedly. So that is not a viable option for me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One thing I actually looked into as as a potential feature for overcast is to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco allow you to just tap the phone really hard with your fingers while it’s in your pocket and allow that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to mimic the clicker controls.

⏹️ ▶️ John I thought I thought of that and I was going to suggest that to you. But then I thought about it a little longer and I said, this is a terrible idea.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah, that’s pretty much what happened. I mean, I tried like reading some of the accelerometer data to see if I could reliably detect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that versus any other kind of motion. And it was just really hard. I don’t think it would ever be good enough

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to like reliable enough to detect that without having a bunch of false positives.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you don’t want to encourage people to be whacking their iOS devices, even if it’s just a fingertip,

⏹️ ▶️ John because once you open that door. You know how human nature you you’ll tap,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll tap harder and you’ll tap it again. It’s like, right? I’m going to make a Raymond Williams

⏹️ ▶️ John reference, but you’ve never heard of that movie.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope,

⏹️ ▶️ John nope. That’s all right. Finger right through the iPhone. Boom. What?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey OK,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll get a show notes link for it. Go ahead.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We were sponsored this week once again by our friends at Dash. Go to the dash dot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco com. T-H-E dash dot com. Not an actual dash. This is like that McSweeney’s hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to pronounce email addresses. T-H-E D-A-S-H dot com. So it’s not like a hyphen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or anything. Anyway, go to the dash dot com slash A-T-P

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this is really cool. It’s, they basically allow you to build your own custom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dashboard and it can be public or private and there’s also, you can fill it up with all sorts of widgets and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can customize it. you can make your own widgets, you can do you can do widgets for things like your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco site traffic or recent tweets or you know your recent github commits if you’re a developer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All sorts of things social activity you know traffic activity all sorts of things if you can if you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see if you can picture a graph or a status widget for it you can they probably have it or can or will add it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s really great so they have a bunch of pre-built widgets for you to use. They’re adding more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the time. Vanity searches all sorts of stuff you can put up there. You know a lot of it like we compared

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it last week to Panic’s excellent status board app for iPad. It’s kind of like that for the web and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my opinion pretty well expanded from that. They do a lot more, a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more comes with it. Really great dashboards from Dash look great on a TV

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want. You can connect it via Apple TV or via a Chromecast. The pricing model is really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite simple. It’s a lot like GitHub so you can always create unlimited public dashboards for free.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you sign up, you can create one private dashboard for free. And then if you want, you can just pay $10 a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco month to have unlimited private dashboards. So you can have internal stuff kept private for your company or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But if you want to go there, play with it, create a public dashboard, go right ahead. That’s free. You can even get one private dashboard for free.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really great thing. Go to the slash ATP run by great people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I met one of them last year and really nice guy and big fan of us. And so if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go to the dash dot com slash ATP, you can even see the dashboards that he made for me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco John and Casey. And they’re actually pretty funny. So definitely check that out. Really cool. Thanks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot to Dash. Once again, the dash dot com slash ATP for sponsoring our show.

⏹️ ▶️ John A couple of people are asking on Twitter about different widgets because you mentioned, you know, widgets to interface different services

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff. And if you go to support the dash dot com, you can vote on basically

⏹️ ▶️ John the next widgets that they’ll introduce. So this is ideas from the community for widgets they want and you can vote

⏹️ ▶️ John up the ones that you want to see. So it’s obviously an expandable platform and they’re adding widgets

⏹️ ▶️ John as they’re demanded.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So tell us about your Accord.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so last week I said that I couldn’t figure out how to get or I thought it didn’t see my

⏹️ ▶️ John iPod touch at all. But many people who have an Accord of the same vintage and iPod touches of the same vintage said no,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll find it. And so I took another run at it. And sure enough, it’s just because the interface is terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like it’s got this this thing says connect new device. And then it says search for devices. And it says searching. And then this

⏹️ ▶️ John voice comes over and tells you if your device is incompatible, go to blah, blah, blah. And it’s searching, searching, searching, searching. And then it says

⏹️ ▶️ John no device is found. And I thought that was it looking for devices. But apparently, there’s a whole other feature

⏹️ ▶️ John where you have to say, I don’t know the difference between searching for a device and adding a new device. But

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re different functions. And I don’t even remember how I found that. Eventually, I found my way to a different menu, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is not searching for a device, but adding a new device, which is somehow a different thing. find my iPod touch so

⏹️ ▶️ John the next time I commute to work I will do so in Bluetooth glory.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re gonna see you’re gonna become a convert it’s really really convenient like that this is what I was saying last episode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I think this was edited out but being able to get in the car and just have it start playing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is just so much better and more convenient than having to plug in for any reason like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s worth not having your phone charge during your car ride, just for that convenience. And,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, anything that cars do that requires me to plug in, I’m gonna have a really hard time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco convincing myself that’s worth doing now. Because it’s just so nice to just get in, it starts playing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you turn the car off, it pauses, done.

⏹️ ▶️ John I still gotta plug in my headphones for the walk from the parking garage to the office.

⏹️ ▶️ John So there’s still a little, I had to do that anyway with the iPod Shuffle, but yeah, now I’ve got the clicker for that too, so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that long enough to justify rocking headphones?

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, definitely. Down six flights of stairs, up three flights of stairs. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ John walk from the garage to the building. We don’t all live in rural Virginia, where your

⏹️ ▶️ John parking spot is right in front of your ground level office building.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m going to choose not to engage. So we should probably talk about WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ Casey predictions, because by the time this episode comes out, it will be mere days before

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the big event. And I wanted to start with hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this is a little bit of a tangent, but there’s been a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of talk about larger iPhones. And it certainly does not stand

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to history or recent history that we’ll see any new iPhones during WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But that being said, let’s suppose, even if it doesn’t happen during WWDC,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s suppose that there are, What are the two sizes, 4.7 and 5.5?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 5.5?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I wanted to ask Marco specifically, because you seemed most enthusiastic about these bigger sizes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s assume, just for the sake of conversation, that both 4.7 and 5.5 are real and they exist. So much anxiety.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, but let’s also assume that the effective

⏹️ ▶️ Casey resolution is no different. So I don’t recall exactly what resolution

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the iPhones are today, but whatever the size is that they blow it up to,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they just, they blow it up. There’s no more effective real estate.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Would you still want one? Or are you really excited for them strictly based on the thought that you could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shove more things onto the screen?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, you know, there was a rumor a couple of weeks back that iOS 8, I think this was on 9to5Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that iOS 8 was going to include some kind of new resolution scaling feature,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco possibly based on the way Mac OS X does it on the Retina MacBook Pros. If that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually happens, if there is some kind of feature where you can actually simulate higher resolutions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or somehow adjust the size of things on screen to make everything smaller, I mean there’s universal text sizing but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that isn’t that well supported yet. But if this feature exists and you can actually dynamically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco scale things, then I would probably be tempted to go with the big one. Or if the big one actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco does have a higher resolution, I’d be pretty tempted to go for it. I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure I would keep it. Like, the year after I might go back to the quote small 4.7 inch size.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I’m curious to try it. I’ve never had a large screen phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I know a lot of people say they’re too big but a lot of people love them and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know for how I use it especially since I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really use an iPad very often I use my phone for everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I’m not at my computer so I’d be really curious to try the big phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that being said if it’s only a pure scale up in the resolution

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there’s no there’s not more pixels and it doesn’t put in more capability to see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more on screen with the same resolution. I’d have a really hard time justifying the bigger one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s like, well, what am I really getting for that? I mean, and you are getting something like you could theoretically set the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco universal text size smaller and fit more on screen with text, but it wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite have the same effect.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey also never had a larger phone. I just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t see I don’t see myself carrying a larger phone in my pocket

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything over five inches for sure and I’m not overly enthusiastic about a 4.7 inch phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but as with all things that I claim I either don’t understand or don’t like like Macs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and iPhones and BMWs and many other things I’m not thinking of I’m sure I will probably come around

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on this, but I don’t know. I don’t have an overabundance of pocket space as it is. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t even fancy skinny jeans or anything like that. So I just, I can’t imagine having like a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey five inch plus phone sitting in my pocket all the time. That does not sound enjoyable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think a lot of people, a lot of, uh, you know, Apple enthusiasts would end up getting

⏹️ ▶️ John it just like Margo said, just to see what it’s like, because presumably these people have only ever ever had

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhones like they’re, you know, they’ve only been buying iPhones. Haven’t tried any other kind of phone. You’re going to try

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Just, I mean, I guess you won’t be able to tell from holding in the story, but like, well, I don’t know, like you’ll want to just buy

⏹️ ▶️ John it, own it, and you know, you’re going to get a new phone next year or the year after anyway, give it a try. And then you’ll find

⏹️ ▶️ John out probably within the first couple of weeks or a couple of months, if this is for you or not. But since it’s a novelty in the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, uh, you know, iOS device space, I think a lot of people are going to buy it just to see what

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like. So Apple kind of gets an out on that regard. regular people who aren’t listening to this podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John and aren’t Apple enthusiasts, they’re already buying big phones. So it’s not a big deal to them. It’s only a big deal to people like us.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, the screen might not be the only difference. Obviously, a larger phone can fit a larger battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and some of that battery power is going to be spent lighting that larger screen. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably not all of it. If you know if they assuming they have like the same, you know, logic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco board motherboard inside. And it’s just you know, that same board plus larger battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the bigger phone versus smaller battery in the smaller phone, you’d probably get better battery life in the bigger one. And it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might not be by a whole lot, but I bet it would be noticeable. Secondly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they do different thicknesses, and I talked about this on the talk show, which we’ll get back to in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a minute, I talked about this on the talk show a while back talking about a big phone, but if they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do different thicknesses, they might have different camera sensors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and camera sensors and phones, thickness tends to be the limiting factor in how good they can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be. And that’s why you see Android phones having these big blobby things where the camera is in the back so they can make that thicker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and put a nice sensor in there and nice optics. Because optics like you just get to physical limits

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where like you just need depth to make larger sensors, larger optics, things like that to make better image

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quality. So if and you know the rumors are that there’s going to be this iPhone Air

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has it’s like it’s the biggest one and it’s super thin. If the big one is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinner and has a worse camera as a result,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then that’s going to be a pretty big downside for me and I would almost certainly not get it. I would say if the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cameras are different at all between the two sizes and there’s obviously this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco assuming a lot, you know, it’s a disclaim up front, this is assuming that there even are two iPhones and by the way we probably won’t hear about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them next week, we’ll probably hear about them in the fall, but assuming that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there are two phones, if there’s any difference in the camera at all between them, I will almost certainly pick the one with a better camera

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no matter what size it is.

⏹️ ▶️ John You pre-derailed us, Casey. You put in stuff about a phone, which we all think is going to be released in September in the section

⏹️ ▶️ John about WWDC predictions.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, yes, I’m sorry. I really wanted to ask Marco about this because sitting here now, like I said, I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no enthusiasm about a bigger phone, although clearly the rest of the planet quite literally does. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just wanted to ask real fast.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Before we move on, and before we forget, speaking of the talk show,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Gruber announced on the talk show today that he’s doing a live show at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco WWDC on Tuesday, and we will be the guests on that live

⏹️ ▶️ Marco show. We decided not to do our own live show because it’s a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work, and he’s doing one, and we’ll just invade his. So if you want to hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us invade the talk show live at WWDC next week, tickets are not available right now as we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco record but by the time we post this they will be so we’ll put a link in the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so let me so keep you know look at the show notes basically and see tickets are probably gonna go pretty quickly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so go quickly if you want to come and hopefully we will see you there

⏹️ ▶️ John and where would people find those show notes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco listen to the song I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know the song has to fit every episode

⏹️ ▶️ John it says you can find the show No, no, it’s at, but in the back to work tradition, you have to give the full URL.

⏹️ ▶️ John And now that you’ve made the nice short URLs, you can do that, can’t you?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, they’re not that short. It’s slash episodes slash 67, right? Is this number 67?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Dan? Dan? Yes, it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And also, you are lying., the slash 67 should work. That

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does work. Oh my god. So yeah, so slash 67.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, WWDC Tuesday evening. I don’t know what time either six or seven,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey six to nine at mezzanine, which is a really nice venue. Yeah, it’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be a good show. So check it out.

⏹️ ▶️ John And yes, we will all be there. I will be there in person. I’m flying out to do a live podcast. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ John welcome. We actually convinced him to do this because I do not I do not want to do a live podcast. And

⏹️ ▶️ John yet I am. So if you wanted to see

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco me, he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t want to do a live podcast. He doesn’t want to fly.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to do this at all. But you know, I’ll survive. So anyway, All three of us will be there in the flesh.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, okay, WWDC stuff. Let’s start with the rest of the hardware, the stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they actually may announce at WWDC. Do we see a Retina MacBook Air happening?

⏹️ ▶️ John When they lowered the price on the current ones, you know, when they revised them and took off $100, at

⏹️ ▶️ John first I thought that was a clear sign that they were making room for the one and only 12-inch

⏹️ ▶️ John Retina Air model, but then I thought maybe it’s just their preemptive move because they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have that ready and they just want to make these more attractive until they do have it ready and now I can’t decide.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well I think you’re right because Intel’s having some issues getting the next CPU I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s Broadwell. Intel’s having some issues with that getting out on time and so there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s basically been pretty widely rumored speculated and maybe even said by Intel that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re basically not gonna have new CPU models out until like December at the earliest and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s different like two different times the different releases so the MacBook Air super low power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CPU might come out at a different time than the ones the iMac uses and stuff like that. But basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s looking unlikely that Apple is going to have a compelling reason to update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the current line of anything anytime soon. That doesn’t mean they can’t launch a new one. If they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanted to do a Retina MacBook Air or any new size of a laptop,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they could just ship it with the existing CPU family. It wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know about that, because I always assume that Retina would be rating for Broadwell, just for power concerns,

⏹️ ▶️ John because the extra power needed by the screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is Broadwell a die shrink or a process shrink? I think it is, but I’m not sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah, it is. It’s 14 nanometers, isn’t it? So that does matter. Yeah, but so I would

⏹️ ▶️ John imagine that Apple’s roadmap was based on the assumption that they would have Broadwell in time for a

⏹️ ▶️ John mid-year Retina MacBook Air. with the price drop and the revisions

⏹️ ▶️ John before WWDC, like I said, that could go both ways. It could be like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John you would wanna keep those in the lineup because they’re still good computers, but like they revised

⏹️ ▶️ John them. Did you see the Macworld speed tests on them? They’re actually slower than the models they replaced in a couple

⏹️ ▶️ John of measures.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that was just because of the SSD. There was a thing that came out that first said, oh my God, the SSDs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are actually slower. And then a couple of days later, it came out that, oh, well, actually there’s always been variance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in which SSD manufacturer you get when you buy your MacBook Air, there’s always been variances in them. And the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco current variances are nothing new.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that could be true. But you would think that Macworld would get the models with the fast ones. But I don’t know. But anyway, the

⏹️ ▶️ John point is, the revisions of the existing models are not like, oh, these are so much faster than last years.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just it’s a price drop. And performance is the same, maybe a little bit better, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit worse, depending on what your previous one and what your current one is. Screens, not a big

⏹️ ▶️ John change there or anything. So it’s like that they’re being pushed down market

⏹️ ▶️ John and kept on life support to make room for something. And I can’t decide whether

⏹️ ▶️ John doing that before WWDC means they’re making room for an announcement at WWDC or doing it before WWDC means

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not and we don’t have anything nice to say. So we won’t say anything at all WWDC and you’ll just all wait

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro style for us to come out with the real replacement machines.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m guessing it’s the latter. Just because we know that Intel is having issues with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new generation of CPUs. So we know that this current generation of MacBook Airs has to last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco longer than expected.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would still be excited for Apple to announce the machine, show it, and

⏹️ ▶️ John say it’s not shipping until like October and then in October have it slip to December. Like that

⏹️ ▶️ John would, I would basically I want to see what the new machine looks like even if I can’t have it until the end of the year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So basically exactly what they did with the Mac Pro last year. Yeah, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, not that people are dying for new Airs, but by pushing

⏹️ ▶️ John the existing ones down, it’s like now the Air feels like kind of a loser machine. It’s like we know there’s a replacement

⏹️ ▶️ John coming, and it’s not here yet. So they haven’t been waiting years like the Mac Pro people, but still.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, we’ll get to any other hardware we think might be announced. But

⏹️ ▶️ John we all agree probably no phones, because they’re in September these days. The iPads

⏹️ ▶️ John have just been updated. If they’re not going to show a red in the air, do they have any

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hardware to

⏹️ ▶️ John announce that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco WBC? Well, there’s always room for a new category.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was just thinking that and just put it in the show notes to talk about.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We may do the wearables thing. I want so badly to have a clever ideas to what that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would be, but I cannot come up with anything.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So what about Apple TV at WWDC, either software or hardware?

⏹️ ▶️ John The hardware is kind of like the iPod Touch hardware at this point. It’s like Apple doesn’t really,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple updates it, but is in no real hurry. Like what, they’re a single core A5 in the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV, the current Apple TV, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the shrunk version.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like at a certain point, it becomes like USB 1.0, where it’s more expensive to put on a computer than 2.0, because

⏹️ ▶️ John everybody’s making 2.0 chips. I mean, it’s different because only Apple’s making the A5, but still,

⏹️ ▶️ John at this point, you feel like Apple must have worked through their inventory of A5s with a bump core.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, these are now custom chips. Remember, and I think it was an Antec did the teardown where like as of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a year and a half ago, they’re actually making custom chips that right now are only in the Apple TV. They only have one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco core to begin with.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV, it’s not slow per se, but it’s certainly not a speed

⏹️ ▶️ John demon. And the interface is clunky and no one’s really talking about an Apple television

⏹️ ▶️ John set anymore. We’re just assuming they’re gonna update the puck, but we all think the puck

⏹️ ▶️ John software and experience needs to be updated. And I think part of that updated experience, if they ever bring it, It

⏹️ ▶️ John would have to be a faster CPU and maybe some more memory to support what we hope is a better UI than just a massive

⏹️ ▶️ John grid of rounded rectangles that you navigate between and that appear randomly on your thing. So

⏹️ ▶️ John there are an awful lot of sessions on the WWDC schedule that are to be announced.

⏹️ ▶️ John And those all can’t be like, oh, here’s the new Xcode. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John got to be something. I should have done the count. Did anyone do the count of how many are to be announced this

⏹️ ▶️ John year versus last year?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I remember last year, there were a lot that were to be announced that weren’t about any kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco special secret thing. Like basically what they what they tend to do is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything that that includes in its in its name or description, the name of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any unreleased thing, or unannounced thing does not get put in the app until keynote day,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco until after the keynote. And so it’s like, you know, it might even be like the title, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, the set a session might be one of those to be announced titles now. And it might just be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, what’s new in networking and iOS 8, you know, and that’s just because iOS 8 hasn’t been announced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. So they mark it as secret. So you can’t really tell by

⏹️ ▶️ John by that, I suppose. But like, I was trying to look at the categories because the secret ones do have

⏹️ ▶️ John categories applied to them. So you can see one’s dev tools like like you look at the day and the time and the fact that step

⏹️ ▶️ John tools like that’s the Xcode six, you know, session. And like, there’s There’s a couple ones like

⏹️ ▶️ John media, like in a prominent slot. What would they have to do about media? It’s like some new AV foundation

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m trying to figure out that if they did a big Apple TV revision, say allowing apps of some kind

⏹️ ▶️ John or making an SDK for it or something like that, are there enough slots in

⏹️ ▶️ John prominent positions to do that? I don’t know. I mean, the Apple TV, I didn’t put the iPod Touch down here too,

⏹️ ▶️ John because God knows when they’re going to update that. I would like to see a revision of the Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if they just do a hardware bump and like a reasonable software revision.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I say, we’ve given up for the Apple TV set, you’ve given up them fixing TV because you know, all the rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John are that any TV stuff they have is not this year probably. Um, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m again, I’m trying to think of like, so what hardware do we get? No hardware in the WODC announcement?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which which do you think will be updated first? The iPod Classic,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPod Touch, or the Mac Mini?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m gonna go with Mac Mini there, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’d be the iPod Touch.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a tough race, though. They’re both pretty in the glass. It’s not gonna be the iPod Classic, I’ll tell you that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think they’ll change that until they can’t get the parts anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Discontinuing it would count as an update.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, in that case, maybe.

⏹️ ▶️ John I really am having a hard time thinking of parts. Someone put a Retina MacBook Pros, and those are, they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John due for an update, that they could be. But then what would you do to them? Besides reducing the price and maybe offering

⏹️ ▶️ John more RAM or bigger, faster SSDs. Like if Broadwell’s not ready, you’re not gonna change the CPUs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly, that’s the problem. Like that’s why I don’t think we’re gonna see any new Macs unless they are a new form factor using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the old CPUs. Because there’s just, there’s nothing new to put in them. Apple does not do major

⏹️ ▶️ Marco updates to products without a new Intel chipset to put in them. They just don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’ll do minor stuff and that won’t even bother with an announcement. or they’ll do a whole new line

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that doesn’t need a new CPU because they can use something that was already available in a new way, but they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna release, because you’re right, yeah, what would they do? It’s like, I know they’re not gonna announce a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new Mac Pro already because there’s no new Xeon yet. And you can always tell when they’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco announce new Mac Pros, well, usually, you were able to always tell before they went three years without

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing anything to it, by just looking at the Xeon roadmap, say, all right, well, when are the new Xeons coming out that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are the series that the Mac Pro uses? And as soon as there is new Xeons, within a month or two, there’s new Mac Pros.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Same thing with the laptops. You can see Intel’s roadmap, and Intel releases new CPUs about every year,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this year’s are delayed. And so therefore, I suspect it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty safe bet that all new Mac launches are going to be delayed until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the winter or the spring.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this is the perfect time for them to rev the iPod Touch WWDC. Yeah. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s so far behind that it’s easy to, Like, you put an A6 in it, you know, I’m not even asking for

⏹️ ▶️ John an A- Pah, I’ll put an A7 in it, who cares? Like, this- Wait, it’s still A5? Yeah. Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco god.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it is. I can’t even keep track, it’s so old, I don’t even remember how old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is. No, it has the tall screen, right? Like the iPhone 5, so it probably has an A6

⏹️ ▶️ John in it. Oh, I don’t know. Someone look it up, it’s super slow compared to the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John 5S, I’ll tell you that. Yeah, the chatroom says A5 still. Oh, that’s terrible. And, not that I think

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re gonna do this, but like, it’s the one product that they have that they could easily provide an update to they cared but they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John so whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well and they hardly sell any of them

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah it’s my name is I’m saying it’s not gonna happen but you know if they were desperate for some hardware that would

⏹️ ▶️ John be a gimme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re the only you’re keeping the entire line afloat you’re the only one by

⏹️ ▶️ John no lots of children I just bought another one like I couldn’t believe I did this cuz like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s against my religion to buy an Apple device this old like I bought I bought one for my son

⏹️ ▶️ John cuz he wanted one for his birthday and so now he’s got one he’s like it’s the worst time to buy this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing but kids like them my daughter’s upset that she doesn’t have one so now she wants one so I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to resist buying a second one or a third one I don’t know how many we got a lot of iPod touches in this house

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just just get the new iPhone this fall and give her your current one done

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah we’ll see about that we’ll see what the new iPhone looks like it’s a big giant 5.5 inch thing I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s gonna look like an iPhone what do you mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John look like an iPad mini if the rumors are to be believed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah and Maybe the big one does. You know, maybe the quote, iPhone Air, the big 5.5 inch one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll see, I don’t know. All right, so hardware, it seems like we don’t know what the heck is going on here with hardware. We can’t, none of us can

⏹️ ▶️ John think of anything that we think is a slam dunk for hardware at WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If they’re gonna do another MacBook Air, I bet they will do it here. Like, if they’re gonna do a 12 inch something,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this would be a good time to do it because they have no other good existing product updates.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But really I think the most obvious answer is if they’re going to announce any hardware at all, which is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a given, but if they’re going to announce any hardware at all, it’s probably going to be some new category.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you know, not just Retina Mac, but you know, something like a watch sensor, earbud, pinky ring, whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, some kind of new thing. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a really good time to do that. If they’re announcing, and it could even just be Apple TV, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, 10.0 or whatever, where Apple TV is now a full-fledged platform that you can write apps for or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. You know, that could be the big thing this year. And some of those sessions that we don’t know anything about that have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do with media could be Apple TV development.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ John I haven’t been following the rumors that closely, but it isn’t. Isn’t hasn’t the consensus been that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple wearable,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, sensor support and stuff will come in Iowa six, but Apple supporting hardware would only come later in the

⏹️ ▶️ John year. I haven’t been keeping up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You mean eight. I mean, I think it’s tough. I mean, it wouldn’t be unprecedented

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for them to have WWDC not mention anything and then announce new hardware in the fall

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has some new feature and then like spring on developers with like a point one update or the very last beta SDK

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something like that. They have done that before. In fact, they did it with the M7,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M7 chip and the iPhone 5S. They did that whole thing. But something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s actually like a big deal, like a new sensor, a whole new sensor type, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would be tough. And if they’re going to show off Healthbook, you know, maybe they might pre-announce something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco involving that, because it’s kind of, you know, Healthbook as we know it right now with the sensors that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we know about now is pretty much just pedometer plus plus. But if you,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they’re gonna do new sensors then they become more valuable. So I don’t know. I’m guessing that we see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some new category be announced at WWDC. And I don’t know what that category will be, whether it’s Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Marco major update that’s now developable or whether it’s a wristband watch thing, who knows.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I bet it’s going to be something like that. There’s something that we have not been able to develop for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or use before that we can now develop for or use.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I suppose. Do you think it’s about time for the Apple TV to get a visual refresh, the software,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not the hardware?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s what I was talking about. That’s stop being a stupid grid of rounded rectangles and start having a

⏹️ ▶️ John richer interface.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m thinking it’s so dark now and iOS 7 is so bright. I almost wonder if just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey making it brighter and more iOS 7 like would be an improvement. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey additionally, isn’t it running not a fork, but kind of a fork of iOS, isn’t that right? So.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, it definitely does not, it looks dated. No question, it looks dated. I don’t think the interface is scaling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very well. Like as they keep adding more and more of these channels and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rounded oval keeps getting, you know, The list of those keeps getting longer and longer and longer. It definitely is not scaling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, if you just look at like, look at Roku and Amazon’s Fire TV thing, like

⏹️ ▶️ John for where Apple TV, like what its competition is currently doing, and Apple is still pretty far behind that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Although as a Plasma TV owner, I hope Apple does not go the iOS 7 route and make it

⏹️ ▶️ John all white, and anyone who owns a Plasma TV knows why.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fair enough. Wait, hold on, why? Because, is that because it makes it hotter or?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, white screens use more power, more power draw causes the transformer buzz to be

⏹️ ▶️ John louder. And yes, all the lovely sacrifices that I make, including having fans in my television

⏹️ ▶️ John to get superior picture quality. One of them is if you make the screen all white, you get

⏹️ ▶️ John a more audible transformer buzz. So having a black background is preferable to me.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, anything else on wearables?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I have. We’ve had in the show notes for a while. I mean, like to Craig Hockenberry’s thing about Apple wearables, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve been thinking about it as well. And my thinking on wearables has changed over

⏹️ ▶️ John time, over time of Apple doing nothing. And the more I think

⏹️ ▶️ John about wearables, I keep seeing,

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone keeps seeing in their head like something that goes around your wrist that has this amazing futuristic looking screen on it

⏹️ ▶️ John that does something or that you interact with by swiping or I don’t know, like it’s just like

⏹️ ▶️ John you see these mockups and they look really cool but it’s like well then how would you use it? And everything

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re seeing from actual rumors from Apple are like the health book stuff. And that’s all about

⏹️ ▶️ John having an application on your phone that integrates information from other sensors. So when

⏹️ ▶️ John I think of Apple wearables now, I keep thinking of things that either don’t have screens

⏹️ ▶️ John or have things that are like barely screens. I mean, like the Fitbits have their various little displays with the LEDs

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff. Because screens are a problem. Like you can’t have a screen on

⏹️ ▶️ John all that. reason all these Fitbit and things like that don’t have big LCD screens on them. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have a screen on all the time, the battery will run out. I mean you don’t have your phone screen on all the time, you

⏹️ ▶️ John just take it out, you look at the screen, you put it away, you turn the screen off. But if the screen’s not on all the time, it can’t really function as a watch

⏹️ ▶️ John because you got to do, you know, think of all the smart watches that make you do the little jiggle shake to turn on or tap it to turn on

⏹️ ▶️ John or you know. And I’m thinking like what does Apple want out of this? They want

⏹️ ▶️ John more sensors and more information integrated into your phone does that require a screen that’s always

⏹️ ▶️ John on or a screen at all? Not that I’m saying that Apple wearable won’t have a screen but I

⏹️ ▶️ John think there is a there’s a place in our current conception with with the

⏹️ ▶️ John known information of what Apple is trying to do with you know sensors and integration

⏹️ ▶️ John for a thing that you attach to your person or clothing somewhere that doesn’t need to have a screen

⏹️ ▶️ John and it could be that they also have a device that has a screen, but everything I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John seeing out of Apple makes me think some little turdy thing that will look nice

⏹️ ▶️ John but doesn’t need to have a screen. Does that mean it’s a ring like Hockenberry’s thing? No, I think that’s still a fantasy.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t imagine them pulling that off, although feel free to prove me wrong, Apple. Does it mean

⏹️ ▶️ John it couldn’t be around your wrist? Maybe it could. Maybe they’re going to use some breakthrough screen

⏹️ ▶️ John technology that can be on all the time, or maybe they’re going to use color e-ink, or there’s all sorts of crazy things you can come up

⏹️ ▶️ John with. And certainly a lot of the rumors from years ago were like, Apple’s investigating

⏹️ ▶️ John curved flexible screen technology for things that’ll go around your wrist and you can still touch them and stuff like that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I just wanted to throw that out there that what the vibe I’ve been getting from the information available is

⏹️ ▶️ John that there is a place in Apple’s grand conception of health

⏹️ ▶️ John monitoring and health book and stuff like that for something that doesn’t necessarily have to have something that we would

⏹️ ▶️ John recognize as a screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I completely agree. I think if Apple does do some sort of wearable thing, I am pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey convinced it will not have a screen. And additionally, I think it will have some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of sensor, almost certainly health related, that the iPhone either can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or doesn’t or perhaps won’t have. I don’t know what that would be. Pulse would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be a great example if you could do it comfortably, but I can’t imagine how that would work unless you could grab

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever latent electricity you have in your wrist or finger or whatever. But I see it, personally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I see whatever they’re wearable is as a mechanism to sell more phones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because, hey, look at all this wonderful health or perhaps other kind of data you can get into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the phone if you have the Apple iRing. And I’m not sure it’s going to be a ring, obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but just for the sake of conversation. So I agree with you, John. I’m pretty convinced it will not have a screen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and will be all about sensors.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and the sensor stuff, like, I don’t know a lot about medical sensors, but like talking about

⏹️ ▶️ John being able to track O2 levels, don’t those things use some kind of light, they shine through your fingertips and stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John and see how red things are? I have no idea how these things work. But like, when I think of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John like that, I think of like, well, the iPhone 6 could have, you know, the Touch ID sensor someplace that you put your hand, but you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna have something clipped to your fingertip when you go through the day. And you can’t clip something to your, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the end of your shirt or your bra or something and have that measuring your O2 level. So like I don’t I don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John understand which parts of the body you’d need to clip things to to get this information or if it’s going to be like

⏹️ ▶️ John a once or twice a day put your finger on the special spot on your iPhone 6 type of thing. So

⏹️ ▶️ John you know I mean Apple has been hiring these people for visualizations of medical information. Remember those hires back

⏹️ ▶️ John then of like like there’s there’s so much smoke there and I just don’t understand what what

⏹️ ▶️ John form the fire is going to take.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe you’re right maybe it is the home button because that’s something that you like. If you think about all the different places

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could have a wearable, you have like, you know, wristbands, but that could be on the outside of a shirt. Like if you have like a long-sleeved shirt, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wristband could be on the outside of it. And you know, maybe not always, but it might be. You can’t really count on that. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, rings, I think you’re right. I think we’re probably not there technically yet to be able to fit everything in something as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco small as a ring. And yeah, but the home button, you’re always pushing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with your finger throughout the day. And so that actually makes a lot of sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John The wrist thing for even stuff like pulse, you would never want a wrist thing that was tight enough on your wrist to measure your pulse.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like people don’t like things

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco gripping them that tightly, you know

⏹️ ▶️ John what I mean? It’s like it’s not like you’d be in a blood pressure cuff all day, but it’s like even

⏹️ ▶️ John just to pick up your pulse, I feel like you’d have to have something that is slightly uncomfortable. And there’s a reason that people

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t walk around with these sensors on them all day. Like we go into the doctor’s office and they hook these things up to you and

⏹️ ▶️ John you want to get them off, you know? So I mean, I don’t know. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing about wearables is we’re so much focused on health because that’s the little nugget of information that we have, from

⏹️ ▶️ John vague screenshot rumor site type things of health book. And it’s like, well, what good is health book?

⏹️ ▶️ John How is that any different than Panameter++? Unless you have some other information. And where is that information coming

⏹️ ▶️ John from? And that’s why we get into, well, that’s a third party opportunity. Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John will basically make these APIs. And Fitbit and whoever can make new devices that will feed into

⏹️ ▶️ John this API. And but then like the then where is Apple in this? Where is the Apple? Where is

⏹️ ▶️ John the new category? That’s the question we continue asking. And I guess we’ll keep

⏹️ ▶️ John asking if this year ends and there’s nothing that you can wear from Apple and they haven’t done anything with Apple TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, something is wrong because, you know, Tim said, man,

⏹️ ▶️ John new category

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you’re right also that, you know, going back a step, you know, with the whole screen, no screen thing, like whatever this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing is. I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it every episode, I would never bet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco against the smartphone, at least not for a long time. In the current era that we are in, the smartphone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is king. Smartphones are awesome and it is so unwise to bet against them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As a tangent to that, if you’re thinking about having something that you’re also going to be carrying around,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it makes so much more sense for it to be a smartphone accessory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than its own stand-alone thing of some sort. And the smartphone has all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the power, it has all the connectivity, it has way more battery power than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can fit in a quote wearable, unless the wearable is a backpack. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is unwise to try to cram a whole bunch of power-sucking stuff into a wearable, including

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a screen. And yeah, you could do like E-Ink, so it only takes power to change the contents of the screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But E-Ink looks like crap and I can’t see Apple doing that. You can’t touch that. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco touch this. Well, no, you could, but it just takes

⏹️ ▶️ John more power. It wouldn’t respond to your touch in real time. That’s the whole point of touch is that you feel like you’re directly manipulating

⏹️ ▶️ John something. And all the mock-ups are like some big curved glass screen that looks like you’re wearing like the

⏹️ ▶️ John bracelet equivalent of Cinderella’s glass slippers.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco If you were

⏹️ ▶️ John to have… Let me just make something that’s like solid glass, put it on my wrist so I can bang my wrist on the table and have shards of glass drive.

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that’s what the fan… and then, but what would you do with that? Can you imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to swipe a smooth glass? Like, half the time you’d end up rotating it around your wrist and

⏹️ ▶️ John where are you swiping anyway? Are you swiping longitudinally or like across it and like how could you use

⏹️ ▶️ John an interface? Like if you’ve tried to use any of the recent iPod Nanos where they have touchscreens

⏹️ ▶️ John in a tiny little space, there’s not much that you can do reasonably with a screen that size.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you look at smart watches that exist today from other people, in order to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any kind of interactivity on a smart watch, it has to be pretty big and bulky. And that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool. It’s not sexy. It is not appealing. It is a wearable, certainly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s a wearable that nobody wants to wear. And these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that are catching on big time, things like fuel bands and Fitbits, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco smaller, they’re subtle. You don’t have to take them out constantly. You can leave them tucked under your sleeve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or clipped to your bra or in your pants pocket or something. You can leave them hidden away because like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wearing electronics is just not cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John What they start looking like is I guess they start with Lance Armstrong maybe breast cancer like all those things that people

⏹️ ▶️ John would wear as showing their support for some cause or you know what like those

⏹️ ▶️ John little color like the fuel bands look so much like the whatever you know, Lance Armstrong

⏹️ ▶️ John bracelet things or the breast cancer awareness pink things like, and

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ve just sort of accepted that you’ll have a regular outfit and then there’ll be this other thing that you wear that doesn’t call attention

⏹️ ▶️ John to itself and that you don’t spend much time interacting with. And those were totally non-functional. They were just pieces of rubber

⏹️ ▶️ John that you had word stamped into them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They increased awareness, John.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, right. And now, now we have one that at least has stuff inside it that at the end of the day

⏹️ ▶️ John I get to count my steps or whatever. You know, I just again, we should get someone here with a medical

⏹️ ▶️ John sensing expert to say this. They could probably tell us exactly. Look, if you want, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John pulse, this is the only place you can get it. And this is how if you want, you know, blood oxygenation, this is the only

⏹️ ▶️ John places you can get it. And this is how because these answers are all out there. We just don’t happen to know them. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. So let’s talk about OS 10, 10.10. 10.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 10.

⏹️ ▶️ John La OSS, Ferrari La Ferrari.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I feel like Super Troopers with the meow game. Anyway, so I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we can round up our show with iOS 8, but let’s start with OS 10.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God, I’m already stumbling. OS 10, 10.10. What do we expect? To me, I expect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some sort of visual refresh. I don’t think it’ll be full bore iOS 7, but I think it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be somewhere in that direction.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I expect it’s going to have another name of a place I haven’t heard of that’s awkwardly pluralized.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t think it’ll be awkwardly pluralized, but I do think that it will have…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe it will end with like E-D or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I-N-G. I’m going to go on record and say it will be a place that we recognize even as… Wheeling! Even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as non-Californians, in a place where we aren’t on vacation all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ John As much as I was rooting for the cat names to end, now that they have, I realize that with their

⏹️ ▶️ John new theme, it’s basically impossible to try to guess. You know what I mean? of big cats and they

⏹️ ▶️ John started to work their way through them so it became a fun game to guess what the next one would be. But there’s a lot of cities in California.

⏹️ ▶️ John So forget about that. A lot of places in California. And yeah, there are the prominent ones we can all think of, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John Yosemite, San Francisco, whatever. But like, considering they started with Mavericks, it seems like they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going obscure.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree. The other thing, this is very minor, but I really, really want,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I believe this is a combination of iOS 8 and OS 10. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really want airdrop between my devices and my computer. Can we have that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey please?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. I’m still emailing pictures to myself because it’s faster than everything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. It’s so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so ridiculous. I still email so much crap to myself. It’s really embarrassing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I’d really like that. And I’d like a mail app that works properly. Although I like airmail quite a bit, but I’d

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like, I’d like the standard out of the box mail app to work again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Now thinking about 10.10, besides the visual refresh, which I think is enough to,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that will obviously be like the headliner feature of this release is like now we finally

⏹️ ▶️ John have time to revise how things look and we’ll all either love it or complain about it or depending what they do.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s not, I mean, that’s a big change and it could affect applications in profound ways.

⏹️ ▶️ John But in terms of like the underpinnings, that’s not a big, like I don’t think they’re doing anything to underpinnings to enable this

⏹️ ▶️ John new look or anything. So then like, what is this OS about? Is it just a visual refresh? What

⏹️ ▶️ John features, you know, what needs to be done to the core OS and what could be done? Will they continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to just, I mean, I’m sure they’ll make things better in little bits, but

⏹️ ▶️ John like last year, the big theme was power saving and they had lots of technology to support that. This year, the big theme will be

⏹️ ▶️ John visual refresh, but there’s no technology to support that really. I mean, obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ John new file system is evergreen and they can bring that out anytime they want, but I have no expectations.

⏹️ ▶️ John Everything else about the OS, you can point to individual parts of the OS that can be tightened up and made

⏹️ ▶️ John better. But Mavericks, with the exception of the applications, because if you use the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Mail, I feel sorry for you. But even before, I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ John been a fan of that app for a long time. But that makes you think Mavericks was a terrible release. But in terms of the

⏹️ ▶️ John core OS, very, very few problems. I upgraded Mavericks everywhere really early.

⏹️ ▶️ John and there just have not been a lot of weird things, not even like weird application compatibility things. And we’re only on point three. We

⏹️ ▶️ John went 10, one, two and three since last year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I would say overall, with the exception of my clock always being fast, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think 10, nine, three might have fixed. It’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solid. I mean, I’ve always wondered when I always I’ve wondered recently,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it will ever be worth it for them to modernize app kit, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe not replace it with UIKit but bring a lot of the UIKit lessons back into AppKit.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because right now if you want to write a GUI app for iOS and Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s very little GUI code you can share because AppKit just works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, very differently than UIKit. It has a lot of legacy baggage and I don’t know enough about it to really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco talk that much more about it besides this very high-level overview. But I’ve often wished like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I know how to develop for for for iOS pretty well. Now I know you I care really well. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything about app kit. I just know it’s very different. And there’s a lot of things that don’t work the same way and aren’t as nice or aren’t as simple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it would be I would love it if they would bring a lot of UI kit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the parts that make sense. Obviously, certain things aren’t going to make sense outside of like the full screen touch environment.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But bring over the parts that make sense with things like how views are dealt with, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the layer back stuff that you like, you can do all that in app kit, but it’s you know, oftentimes, it’s like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not the default, or it’s hard, or it’s different, or it’s somehow tricky. If they would bring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of that development framework, and when you’re doing a major visual refresh, that would be a pretty good time to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do it. I think that would go a long way. Unfortunately, I think that’s very unrealistic,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it just seems like they’re stretched so thin. And the Mac is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not that high of a priority that would justify all those development resources if they’re also having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to work on iOS 8, iPad version of it, which is still terrible, plus

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever else engineering resources are being devoted to for things like new categories,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether it’s Apple TV or something. We know from hints

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and bits and pieces here and there, we know that a lot of people at Apple are working on something secret that is relatively

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new or relatively recent, but We still don’t know what that is. So there’s something else draining engineering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco resources at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I hate that phenomenon, as far as we can tell from the outside that

⏹️ ▶️ John this happens inside Apple, that something big, new, and important comes, and that team

⏹️ ▶️ John harvests the best engineers from other teams, leaving them with, I guess, the

⏹️ ▶️ John lesser people or the people who didn’t want to move. And those people go off and disappear for a while and work on some new thing. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, that’s fun, and it makes for good articles after the fact, but it’s kind of like,

⏹️ ▶️ John what if I like the products that those guys used to be working on? Now they’re just gonna get fewer resources. But I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you’re right about like, the main thing preventing, like the reason we don’t have parity, like

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft’s been leaning on this recently. Like, hey, you can write a GUI app and you can write it in Windows 8 and you can run it on tablets and you can run it

⏹️ ▶️ John on phones and it’s like the same app with minor changes or whatever. And Apple doesn’t have that. And I think it’s mostly just because

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac’s not that big a platform compared to iOS. Like that’s always gonna be the thing when you’re trying to prioritize resources.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, how many iPhones did we sell last year and how many Macs? And they are modernizing AppKit.

⏹️ ▶️ John Didn’t they make a new table system that doesn’t use NSL a couple years back? I mean, whatever, it’s not the same as like,

⏹️ ▶️ John so here you go, here’s UIKit on the Mac, but the worst warts get covered over,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s just the people who are left there working on AppKit who are doing that and

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t have resources. The iOS 18 is obviously much bigger. I mean, you’re right. As part of the visual

⏹️ ▶️ John refresh, If the visual refresh includes like, especially if it looks a lot like iOS 7

⏹️ ▶️ John or the visual refresh relies more on layer back controls, maybe it’s a time to revise a few more

⏹️ ▶️ John APIs here and there. But I don’t know. I’m having trouble thinking of core

⏹️ ▶️ John OS features unless you’re thinking of something, I mean, not that I think it doesn’t need them. I’m trying to think of features

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple would put the resources towards. Like the kernel and the core OS, like they

⏹️ ▶️ John could do lots of interesting things there, but what’s their motivation for that, right? I guess their motivation would be, we want to do this

⏹️ ▶️ John because it will benefit, you know, the core OS stuff benefits iOS and OS 10. So if they change the

⏹️ ▶️ John kernel, you know, the Mac would just reap that benefit as you know, as a side effect of

⏹️ ▶️ John doing that, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kernel stuff and core OS and shared frameworks, you know, things like, you know, from from things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco core animation, all the way down to newer stuff, like, you know, Grand Central dispatch and auto layout, like all these,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like these major advances that come to both platforms, because they’re lower level, that you know, that will keep that will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco continue, you know, that’ll be fine. But it’s it’s the the high level

⏹️ ▶️ Marco UI stuff that is so radically different between the two platforms. And obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as I said, you know, to some degree it should be because they’re two different interaction paradigms. But there’s a lot of stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could be shared that isn’t only because of legacy concerns, it seems. But I think you’re right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the I think it will never be worth it to Apple to invest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their engineering resources which are very limited and strained, which I think is a big problem, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to invest their limited and strained engineering resources into this platform that is such a small

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of their business these days, which is, again, I think it’s a shame, and I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrong. I think that’s bad prioritization, but that’s probably what they’re going to do, because we see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that as much as we want Apple to have more resources, for whatever reason, they They just keep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not having them. And they just seem to have a very small pool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of engineering ability that they selectively choose. That’s why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of the applications, like people in the chat were talking about how long it’s been since Aperture has been updated.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Aperture has always been dysfunctional in this regard. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just seems like things that are not the new hotness at Apple just get ignored

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for years with nothing being done to them for years because there’s nobody working on them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or there’s one person responsible for maintaining it while the rest of the team was sent off to do something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco newer and more exciting that’s some new product or that’s going to get them in the news

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again. And it’s a shame because there’s a lot of Apple stuff that really could use some attention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and some love. Like what happened with iWork having gone so long with no update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then what feels like a pretty rushed update that happened kind of, you know, last fall that kind of messed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything up. This happens all over across Apple’s entire product line,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco both hardware and software, but especially in software. And you can just tell like there’s so much stuff in software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where it just seems like no one’s working on it. And that’s probably the case because Apple’s teams are kept pretty small.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, on the file system front, the only hope I have is the file systems that is the type of thing I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John they could have been working on it for years without me hearing about it, I suppose, but a file system is something

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think you can develop between two major releases. Like, it’s a multi-year project. You

⏹️ ▶️ John have to be super careful. You have to maintain all your semantics and presumably you’re adding value. So there’d be new features to deal

⏹️ ▶️ John with as well. And yes, Apple desperately needs a new file system, but they don’t seem to be working on one as far as I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John aware, but they do have core storage. And as I pointed out in my past, I was 10 reviews. A lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of the things that core storage already does on max today are very similar to the the things that

⏹️ ▶️ John a file system would need to do. And so it’s possible that what they’ve done for core storage can slowly

⏹️ ▶️ John continue to evolve its way towards a system whereby the disk appears to be HFS

⏹️ ▶️ John plus, but most of the actual management of blocks on disk and APIs and everything, it

⏹️ ▶️ John ends up being core storage with a thin veneer of HFS plus over it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which is kind of, I mean, if you use core storage now, that’s not, I don’t know. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John how they can manage the layering between those things because, like I said, Core

⏹️ ▶️ John Storage keeps track of where things are in disk and manages blocks and does all these interesting things and is actually

⏹️ ▶️ John the one of the more interesting modern file system type things that Apple has done in recent years to enable things like the new file

⏹️ ▶️ John vault, which is so much better than the old one. But, you know, this

⏹️ ▶️ John HFS plus is still sitting there, still having crappy features, still corrupting itself, still,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, still being its own, still being single-threaded,

⏹️ ▶️ John still being its own cranky self. And so, anyway, HFS Plus is on iOS devices

⏹️ ▶️ John too. I’m always talking about this in the context of the Mac, but all your iPhones are running HFS Plus as well. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco they actually- Just

⏹️ ▶️ John restore your phone and quit all your apps. Do they run the case-sensitive version of it? I forget if they still do that or if they ever did that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But anyway, a new file system or a lack of a file system or like native core storage against

⏹️ ▶️ John NAND or something, that would benefit iOS devices. And so, I think that’s gotta happen eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John because that’s Apple’s bread and butter, right? It’s not like, oh, this is just a Mac thing. It’s never gonna happen. No, it’s an entire

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple platform thing. Everything uses HFS plus. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s performance to be had. There are features to be added and there’s reliability to be improved. Every

⏹️ ▶️ John axis along, you know, Apple can improve in this regard. And none of them, I guess Apple doesn’t think any of

⏹️ ▶️ John them are critical. Well, it could be more reliable, but it’s reliable enough. Well, it could have better performance, but the performance is good enough.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, well, we could have more features, but the features we have are good enough. They can keep saying that, but eventually it’s going

⏹️ ▶️ John to not be true. And I hope they don’t, you know, this is not like a new language, an API

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, where they have to start 20 years ahead of time, but this is like a three-year project, easy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, we’ll see what happens. It’s, there’s going to have to be a time where the file system changes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I’m a little scared that if the file system does change, that you’ll just quit this podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because you’ll have no reason to complain about it anymore. That seems unlikely. Yeah, I know, I know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, anything else on the new Mavericks that won’t be called Mavericks?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really curious to just see what they do with it. I mean, like, you know, besides the visual refresh, OS 10

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, it’s, it’s pretty mature at this point, you know, that the releases add

⏹️ ▶️ Marco less and less generally over time, um, if only there was somebody we could ask to verify that. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it just see, it seems like obviously like it’s a mature product. The gains to be had are smaller and smaller,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, in each release, especially by speeding up to releases happening every year as opposed to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before where it was like every 18 to 24 months. Well, they still keep doing,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the thing though with the yearly releases. They still keep doing stuff to the internals that I think I would never want

⏹️ ▶️ John to risk in a yearly release. Like if you look at what, that’s why I’m so surprised the Mavericks

⏹️ ▶️ John has done so well. Like if you look at what they did with the power saving stuff and the new APIs, like they’re always monkeying with like,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if it’s just like screwing with launch D again or like, you know, they’re adding minor features and doing minor tweaks and

⏹️ ▶️ John minor improvements, But they’re two parts of the system that if you screw up in any way, nothing works.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so even though they’re not big changes, every year they do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did it in Snow Leopard too. Like, oh, no new features. But they screw with everything in there. I mean, it’s good. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the CoreOS team does a great job with it. They’re like, you know what? Bunchy’s there, and it works, but it could be better. And

⏹️ ▶️ John let’s add these features and tighten this up and make it use less memory and do this. And it’s like, those features,

⏹️ ▶️ John all the way down to the kernel, if you mess up even the littlest bit of that, It destroys the stability and reliability

⏹️ ▶️ John of the entire OS. And Mavericks, I think, did a good job. They didn’t do this. They screwed up the applications. And

⏹️ ▶️ John Gmail got all screwed up. But I think end users are more concerned about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re like, oh, Mavericks sucks because my mail broke. And I understand that perspective. But from my perspective, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John of the OS as the core OS. And they continue to bravely make changes

⏹️ ▶️ John to the core OS on a yearly schedule in areas that are super risky and manage

⏹️ ▶️ John to not screw it up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah, that’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I was actually surprised with all the Mavericks kernel changes. Changing kernel timings of things,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that sounds like a pretty risky thing to do, but they did it and it seemed like it was flawless.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It seemed like it caused no noticeable problems. It was really quite solid.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or even your bad clock, like they screwed with NTPD, like they screwed with how they do time or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the type of thing where, why did they change it? Was it broken before? Well, no, but someone said they could do it. I got a lot of it

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of energy saving. Let’s do it so we can, if we’re doing things repeatedly, they

⏹️ ▶️ John had all these new instrumentation to see who’s waking up the CPU and stuff. And like, oh, this stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John thing’s waking up the CPU. And so they change it. And that’s an example of where they screwed it up and had

⏹️ ▶️ John bugs in it or whatever. But everything’s up for grads. If you run PS and see all those bazillion processes,

⏹️ ▶️ John those are all things that they continue to improve. And one of the good ones is I haven’t seen the stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John blurry icon bug that has been haunting OS 10 for years and years. Did you guys get this one? Where

⏹️ ▶️ John all of a sudden your dock icons will look like they’re half res and be all pixelated and zoomed up? I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John never seen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would occasionally get that with just one app would be half res and the next time I’d launch it, it would update it and be correct.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but it would spread like a virus. Like you’d open a window and they’d all be, but some of them would be messed up and some

⏹️ ▶️ John of them would be good. That bug was in the OS for so long. And from people I talked

⏹️ ▶️ John to about it, they’re like, oh, Mavericks will actually fix that. And fingers crossed, since upgrading to Mavericks, I have not seen that

⏹️ ▶️ John bug yet. And so that makes me happy because someone, the icon services thing, or it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John when they update the font daemon or whatever, there’s tons of processes there and they keep improving them. I like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just get a little bit nervous about it on a yearly schedule.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey One thing that struck me as a little weird is we haven’t heard very much chatter about OS 10.10.10.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s been a lot of talk about Healthbook, about all the other things that may be coming in iOS. And I know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that iOS is the darling of everyone’s eye at the moment, but there’s been very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little talk that I’ve heard about 1010. And that’s a little scary

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if there’s not much happening, but kind of awesome if they really finally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did double down on secrecy. I don’t know. We’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, all the things we listed would be big. A visual refresh is going to be big. That’s what everyone’s going to write about, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John UI kit coming to the Mac would be big. That would be a headliner feature. Hey, all you iOS developers, now suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ John you have an easy way to make a Mac app. want to encourage you to do that because you know the halo effect to get the Mac more popular

⏹️ ▶️ John right. New file system core storage stuff would be big among nerds like there’s there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John plenty of areas that they could put on there that they could put those bullet points on the website and everybody like wow

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS X Sausalito was great. Is that a city in California? I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t even know. I believe it is. So to that end before we start the iOS 8 talk

⏹️ ▶️ Casey while you guys are going back and forth for a few minutes and John you were making a couple of really brilliant points before I had the chance

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make them and so I could have sounded brilliant, damn it. But I was looking at the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey schedule for WWDC and I was digging through it and looking at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the amount or the categories that each of these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sessions are a part of because if you look at the schedule, even the ones that are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey TBA to be announced, they still have the category listed. So, I looked

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and by quick count, as I’m still trying to pay attention to what you guys are saying, there are 35

⏹️ ▶️ Casey frameworks sessions, 17 media sessions, and 19 tools sessions.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Additionally, I thought, well, let me look at what’s in Presidio, which if you don’t know is the biggest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey room within Moscone, the way Apple sets it up. And so, really important things that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are going to be really, really popular for everyone to hear tend to be in Presidio, for example, the keynote.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I recounted and among the things that are not yet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey announced, so the things that are still to be announced, there are six framework

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sessions in Presidio and eight media sessions in Presidio.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I didn’t look at tools, crap, but I think there are eight tool

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sessions in Presidio. I did not look to see if any of them were to be announced. But that’s actually it looks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like at least half of them are to be announced, almost all of them, all the tools ones. That’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of tools, and a lot of media and a lot of framework stuff all to be announced in on Presidio.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it makes me wonder is something big going on that we just don’t realize more than just a visual refresh?

⏹️ ▶️ John What is the media category? Look at the announced ones in the media category. What what the hell is the media category?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Probably too long to do live. But we could we could like look at last year’s where we there’s nothing to be announced. know everything last year

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because a lot of the sessions get repeated or at least something similar will get repeated. You know, every year there’s going to be stuff about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco UI, networking, accessibility, working with media, working with Safari and web technologies.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like you know, there’s there’s certain sessions that just get repeated every year. And so we can kind of look at that to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe eliminate some stuff. But I it certainly does sound like media is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is being emphasized here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, hold on. Hold on. I got that backwards. I’m sorry. are unannounced in Presidio.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got my wires a little crossed. So there are definitely some media ones as well, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was tools that I should have said instead of media. I apologize. So there are six frameworks and six new framework sessions

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Presidio. And I believe there are eight new media sessions

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Presidio, something along those lines. So no matter how you, God darn it, I said media again, tools

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sessions. I’ll get this right one day. So it’s now that I’ve just completely confused everyone,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey including myself. Suffice to say, there’s a lot of tools and a lot of frameworks action going on. And to me, that’s indicative

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of something major and something big and something we’re not thinking of.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, then it also could be like Marco said that every one of those descriptions says find out how to use

⏹️ ▶️ John the new blah with iOS 8 and OS 10 Irvine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. I wouldn’t read too much into anything regarding the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sessions at the conference, because it is like it’s so arbitrary. The categories are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so large. Like it isn’t It isn’t like the category is like OpenGL. It isn’t that specific.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s media technologies or something. They’re so broad,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we’re not dealing with a massive data set here. We’re dealing with how many sessions are there? Like 60 or something? Like a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hundred? There aren’t that many. It isn’t that big of a set. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s not that much signal to the noise here.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the only thing I can think of is that when you do a visual refresh like you did with iOS 7, think of all the

⏹️ ▶️ John sessions that were about how to make your app not look like ass in iOS 7. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John it was, you know, how to get your views out from under the status bar, Casey. You can go to that session this year.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like, how to, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, how to use the tint color and all that. Like, there was tons of sessions, because it’s like, it’s a, from the

⏹️ ▶️ John outside, it’s, you know, it’s like, oh, everything looks different. But from a developer, it’s like, oh, how am I gonna, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John if I have custom controls, how am I gonna make them look nice? Is there a new way to do these controls? How do I deal with text size

⏹️ ▶️ John changing? Like any kind of visual refresh has tons of sessions for the nitty gritty

⏹️ ▶️ John of like developers to figure out how to make their apps look and work right. So if OS X is getting a big visual

⏹️ ▶️ John refresh, I would wager that, well, I don’t know these days actually, but I was gonna say that, does OS

⏹️ ▶️ John X have more custom controls than iOS? Maybe, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has a lot more controls total for the whole set, like built-in

⏹️ ▶️ John controls. Like people with the drawing their own things, where, you know, I don’t know. I mean, some people aren’t even using

⏹️ ▶️ John native controls at all, like they’re drawing their own UI entirely themselves. So that’s not a big deal. But like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I can imagine a lot of the bulk, it was, you know, we basically know that OS 10 visual refresh is

⏹️ ▶️ John coming. A lot of the sessions are about how to make your app look right in this new look.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And, you know, and Apple’s design principles in this new look, it isn’t just going to be,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, here’s a new skin. It’s, you know, like last year, it’s like, all right, well, here’s, here’s a new look. But we also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want you to think about this, this, and this, and you know, it’s actually like a rethinking and a redesign rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than just a reskin. Although

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s still that baffling session from last year. iOS 7 was introduced and there’s a whole session about how to make your icons

⏹️ ▶️ John and all the example icons were like super skeuomorphic, like things look like they were made out of yarn with grass growing

⏹️ ▶️ John on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Yeah, it was weird. They actually even said at the beginning like, keep making your icons the old way. Don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use the new style that we’re using. Which was really weird. I remember I was in there and I remember thinking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that That was a very strange thing to say.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s what I think of the icon factory. Craig was putting up samples of the X-Scope, like

⏹️ ▶️ John experimentations and speculative sort of experimentations of how might the X-Scope icon

⏹️ ▶️ John look like in a flatter OS X world. And they did two little samples, and they look really good. But

⏹️ ▶️ John what is the message going to be from Apple? Is it going to be, are all the OS X icons going to be redesigned to be

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 7 style or whatever the new look? But then they’re going to tell us to make our icons the same? I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, visual changes cause lots of churn and lots of things that developers have to deal

⏹️ ▶️ John with. So that covers at least a lot of the OS X side of things. We should get to iOS 8 though, because iOS 8

⏹️ ▶️ John will probably not be a visual overhaul, and yet I’m sure there will be lots of sessions about iOS 8. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, so what’s coming in iOS 8? So I really want, and I’m not gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get it, but I really want some sort of inter-app communication, because as I think John said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey last episode, if you fix inter-app communication, and you don’t need panes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of apps running simultaneously on the iPad. Like so much gets fixed with better inter-app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey communication, but I’m not hopeful that it’s going to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, aren’t they going to do the remote view controller stuff that’s private?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One would think. They have that. We don’t know if they’re going to do anything with it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, well, they make it public. That’s the usual MO. It’s like it’s private for a while, then they get the kinks worked out and they make it

⏹️ ▶️ John public. Or do you still think it’s going to stay private?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think it will stay an implementation detail of the system they actually make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco public if they do something like this. Because you can’t, like, what are you gonna do? You can’t launch your own process

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on iOS. Like, you can’t do that. So I would love to see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them fix, not necessarily what a lot of people would consider interapp communication. I mean, interapp communication

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is kind of a broad topic. There’s a lot involved there. They can address a nice chunk of it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by doing something like the Windows 8 contracts or the Android Intents whether I have that backwards I don’t know but no you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have that right okay something like that one of those systems where you know apps can register and say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can provide photos to anything that offers a photo picker or somebody else can say I can I’m a search provider

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can search for things or I accept photos or I accept URLs like and then be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco integrated into any kind of share sheet that that comes up in other apps like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s the kind of thing I want because that doesn’t require like there was some something I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I was on Gruber site, something in the last couple days where somebody was saying, you know, the problem is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you add something like the, um, like the side by side thing that was, that was rumored

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last week. Um, if you add something like that, you’re also adding complexity. And if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do something like the contracting intent systems, you’re adding a lot of power without adding a whole lot of,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of user complexity. Uh, and there are certainly challenges to those systems, things that you’ll have to control

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and, and possible problems that could come up. There’s a lot of weird things with fraud and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco confusion that Apple would have to look for at App Review, but they can do that. They have all the tools in place to do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already. Like, they’re set up for that. So I don’t think that’s necessarily gonna be a big problem. I would just love to see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them address that, even if all they do is rip off what Windows Phone or Android does,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or take bits and pieces from both. That would be amazing. That would be so much better than we have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, and that would enable so many third-party app capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that either weren’t possible before or were really clunky and rare before. Like, you know, like right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now in Overcast I have a thing where if you tap a URL, you know, what do you do with it? And I have an open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in Safari activity, I have an open in Chrome activity, only because I wrote an open in Chrome activity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Um, you know, what if, it would be better if Chrome could just say, I can accept URLs from anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that shares URLs. And then I bring up the sheet and I give it a URL and it shows me a Chrome button.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They already have most of the pieces in place to do that already. Like that’s all that’s been there since iOS 6

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the whole UI activity system like that’s that it’s almost all there already and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the impression I got when poking around back when iOS 6 was released two years ago

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the impression I got hint hint from people is that that kind of system

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was discussed or in progress and was cancelled or was delayed and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so obviously and you can look at the UI activity system you can see like okay this is obviously intended for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something like this. And the support for things like remote view controllers, like the pieces are all there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s just a matter of, you know, doing a little bit more to expose it as an API. And, and certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s challenges. There’s like, you know, there’s there’s a pretty big tools challenge

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and, and code design structure challenge with like, alright, well, if I offer a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco remote view controller, how do you present that to the user? Do you launch my entire app in the background

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then have me bring up a certain view controller? How does that work? You know, how does that work with memory and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco API level and backgrounding? There are certainly some things to consider, but it seems like they’ve already done most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the work for that. And that, you know, it is certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a limited form of inter-app communication, but it’s a massive step forward

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from what we have now, and it would really be very beneficial.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’ve seen iOS 8 as kind of the Mavericks of iOS in that

⏹️ ▶️ John from a user’s perspective, it’s going to seem like iOS 7.5. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to look all that different and a lot of the new features are going to be internal. So while Mavericks

⏹️ ▶️ John is vaguely visually distinguishable from Mountain Lion, from user’s

⏹️ ▶️ John perspective, it wasn’t that big a deal, but there were a lot of changes under the hood. And iOS 8, I would imagine,

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to be the same thing. of the look, features that probably aren’t in the user’s face,

⏹️ ▶️ John but that will slowly appear as applications become, you know, iOS 8 savvy to use the old term.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that what you’re talking about, having, you know, the activity viewer type thing

⏹️ ▶️ John and having it list URLs and having some sort of system for you to configure like, oh, I don’t want, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John probably one of the reasons that might’ve been canned is the whole idea of like on the Mac applications that would say that they

⏹️ ▶️ John can handle, you know, star, I handle any application. So the open with, you’d always see this application for every

⏹️ ▶️ John single file. Like sort of spamming the thing, like what can open a URL? And you see a list of 9,000 applications.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you need some way to manage that as well. And that’s another complication in the UI. And that’s the type of thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that could make you say, we’re not quite ready to do that. And the same thing with like sandboxing. Do we just load your,

⏹️ ▶️ John do we load like a loadable bundle or a framework, but run it in the sandbox of your application so that

⏹️ ▶️ John you have access to your document container and everything, but you’re on the screen at the same time as somebody else.

⏹️ ▶️ John And again, if they’re doing side-by-side apps on the iPad anyway, they’ve already got to do probably two

⏹️ ▶️ John sandbox applications that each have access to their own containers, both on screen at the same time,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is, you know, not a big deal. They’re called Windows back in the old world. So

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re doing that anyway, there’s place for that. But yeah, it seems like a Maverick-style

⏹️ ▶️ John release where there’s lots of new APIs for developers to adopt a couple of new things on the settings

⏹️ ▶️ John screen, some new applications, you know, like the health book stuff and everything like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But, you know, not, it’s not gonna be like iOS 7, that’s for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I don’t think it really needs to be. I mean, iOS 7, iOS 7 was really a remarkable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco release in that they crammed in not only a massive visual overhaul and lots of rewriting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the built-in apps to accommodate that, but a lot of cool frameworks, like major

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff, things like TextKit and all the background refresh stuff and the URL session stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco major, major changes to frameworks. And they fit all that into one release. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what I would like to see from it is, besides the interactive communication stuff, which is a big deal,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just take all those frameworks they added last year and just do some tweaks here and there. There’s certain limitations and URL

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sessions that I’d like to see lifted, but it’s mostly minor stuff. The frameworks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are getting really good. even simple things like I was complaining two episodes ago or last week, I was complaining how like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, the keychain API is ridiculous to use, because it’s it’s still one of the old C based API’s and they haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco made a nice object objective C wrapper around it. I think is did more of that, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just wrap a bunch of the of the stuff that’s hard to use like the contacts API and, and you know, the the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keychain stuff like that, like stuff that still uses old C API’s like just wrap some of that new classes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s easier for people to use. I would love just a release like that. Just doing a bunch of small

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tweaks and improvements to the existing frameworks and then having one or two major new features and capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the inter app sharing things.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then there’s like the idea of, you know, any new category or whatever is probably gonna have a bunch of new frameworks

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff that you’re not going to care about if you don’t have any interaction with whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John the hell is new. If you’re not writing Apple TV apps, then you don’t care about whatever new things they had it there. If you’re not going to integrate with

⏹️ ▶️ John some Apple wearable, then you don’t care about those frameworks. But those are always the extras that they add

⏹️ ▶️ John on top. Sort of like the hardware controller interface.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you’re not writing a game that has to have support for hardware control, you’re never going to look at that new API. But hey, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John new in iOS 7. So there’s always that bushel of things that can be new in iOS 8. And

⏹️ ▶️ John with health books supposedly in there that we all seem to believe is coming, there’s got to be a bunch of new APIs

⏹️ ▶️ John to do with that. But maybe you’re just not going to look at them because especially if an Apple wearable doesn’t come out, you’re like, well, fine,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is going to be so long before a third party wearable takes advantage of this anyway. And I’m not interested in it for my podcast app. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ll just ignore that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you think that there’ll be any sort of new springboard functionality? Like everyone keeps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey calling for widgets in either notification center or springboard. I’m extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unconvinced that would ever happen. But is there anything that you can think of that would make

⏹️ ▶️ Casey springboard better?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Have the little icons not slide. Someone tweeted that, and I thought it was a reasonably good idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John Have you be able to delete icons without all the other ones rearranging themselves? I mean, just trying to deal

⏹️ ▶️ John with trying to deal with rearranging icons on the device is just torture. Like it’s a terrible game that we

⏹️ ▶️ John all we do to our like people just don’t rearrange them because it’s so hard. There’s certain positions like the lower, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think, like the lower right corner is torture

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco or one of the really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hard to get there because it’s like scroll over to the next pane or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Or or like as you’re going through pages, especially on my super slow A5,

⏹️ ▶️ John as I’m going, like I’m holding it against the edge and the things are scrolling by, sometimes I guess the animation

⏹️ ▶️ John takes too long and it will end up shoving icons off. Like I’m not landing on this page, I’m saying

⏹️ ▶️ John go to the last page, I’m gonna take this icon from the first page into the last. And as part of that process, I will

⏹️ ▶️ John bump icons off all the intermediary pages. By the time I get to the last page, two new icons are there and I’ve shifted everything

⏹️ ▶️ John over. It’s just maddening. And like, if when I moved one, the other

⏹️ ▶️ John ones wouldn’t slide into its place. That would help me rearrange things with a slight

⏹️ ▶️ John extra little bit of sanity. They’re never gonna do that, but it drives me insane.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, there’s not really a lot of springboard changes that I would really care that much about with the exception of, for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco God’s sakes, fix Newsstand or give apps a way to get out of it or give users a way to take apps out of it because it is so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco annoying for everybody now, for publishers and for users. Like I read stuff that’s in Newsstand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s like on the iPad, I think it’s this way on the phone, I only do in the pad but you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have the app you exit the app and You have to separately then exit newsstand with another tap on the home

⏹️ ▶️ Marco button you have to wait for the animations to complete Staring at a folder right it’s so it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so bad, and it’s like just I Read these same apps like all like one of them’s a New York Times

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app. I read that every night What can I just move it out of there, please just let me put it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John on the home screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Please so I can get rid of the stupid newsstand crap like it’s so so bad

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, hell, let them all appear in newsstand, fine, but also let them be outside. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John no one will ever go into newsstand.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Or just let me drag them in and out. We

⏹️ ▶️ John need to group them all amongst… What Casey mentioned, though, about the widgets or like in Windows Porn’s

⏹️ ▶️ John live tiles or something like that, that is a complication that I see Apple not wanting to add, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it may be inevitable. I mean, like, you know the Today view that they have that shows you all the

⏹️ ▶️ John collection of information, which is kind of configurable, but not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco really?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not that good. And we just have a bunch of icons and there’s no real widgets. Like, opening the door to that complexity

⏹️ ▶️ John is something they definitely don’t want to do. But at a certain point, when everybody else’s phone has some

⏹️ ▶️ John way to sort of customize what you see on either your home screen

⏹️ ▶️ John or on your lock screen in ways that are beyond what Apple allows you to customize,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think Apple is wise to not do that stuff as much as everyone else

⏹️ ▶️ John is. But I think they’re far enough behind now that they could make another baby step in that

⏹️ ▶️ John direction with iOS 8 and no one would freak out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey If remote view controllers are a thing that are being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey used for inter-app communication, could that also be used for a widget,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like in the home screen or in Notification Center?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, in theory, yes. Like in theory, they could use the background refresh system and their remote

⏹️ ▶️ Marco view controller system together to just like, you know, have an app periodically update something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you’d be woken up every, it wouldn’t be frequent, you wouldn’t be able to run a news ticker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco constantly scrolling across, or constantly changing things maybe, but maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’d wake you up every 20 minutes or something to let you put an update there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can you even change your icon like the calendar app? Is that even public?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, that’s never been allowed.

⏹️ ▶️ John And same thing with your default, like whatever is the default ping, like the thing that comes up before your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app is launched? Yeah, you can’t change that either. Newsstand can change its icon, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other apps can’t do either.

⏹️ ▶️ John So like we’re talking about widgets and they haven’t even allowed you to change either your icon or your default launch image. And Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John allowed to change it because they’re allowed to have a functional calendar application,

⏹️ ▶️ John but no one else is. So forget about live tiles, you can’t even update your frigging icon. So

⏹️ ▶️ John like I said, they should make some more moves in that direction.

⏹️ ▶️ John They don’t have to go whole hog like, hey, you can have a view that you control that gets updated every N minutes that’s on the home

⏹️ ▶️ John screen that’s the size of five icons put together, like the live tile thing. Like that’s too far, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re way back in the prehistoric era with the limitations. And a lot of that stuff was like, oh, we don’t want people burning

⏹️ ▶️ John CPU and stuff like that. But that, they’ve come so far in terms of background refresh and everything. And with

⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware that we have now, the restrictions on, no, you can’t change your calendar icon to be today’s date. That would

⏹️ ▶️ John take too much battery. That’s ridiculous. That stuff should be opened up a little bit more.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco remember for a while their calendar icon didn’t update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it wasn’t until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like os three or four like it was it was just it would just always be shoving the wrong date

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well it would be showing the wrong date most days of the month yeah yeah i you know and one thing i wonder do you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think they would ever and i think my answer is no but do you think they would ever give the ability

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to set default apps to third-party apps for things like your default mail app your default web browser

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hmm,

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems highly unlikely, doesn’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, because I mean they have that on iOS 10, but you know that’s that’s different. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you think I mean because that would go a long way with with the URL or with the data

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sharing system like the Contracts Intense thing that would go a long way towards not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only enabling a bunch of third-party apps to be better, but enabling what a lot of users want anyway. Like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not just like oh Google wants to invade with Chrome and Maps. It’s like a whole bunch of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are choosing to use Chrome and Google Maps anyway. And it just sucks that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they don’t have full system integration. You know, if you tap a mail link and something, it doesn’t just open Chrome or

⏹️ ▶️ John the mail is the worst one though, because I can imagine that Apple be like, well, we have to keep you on Safari because the web is

⏹️ ▶️ John such an important thing. And only we get to use the good JavaScript engine and blah, blah, blah. We don’t want people changing this.

⏹️ ▶️ John But mail man, like there are so many good, interesting mail applications. And I bet mail is

⏹️ ▶️ John the application that most people are likely to use a third-party one because how many people use Chrome? Probably not a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John but I think the Gmail app is probably very popular.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah I bet you’re right. Well Chrome was very popular but I think it’s kind of fading now but your Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app is very very popular no question.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then you have to like I’m setting up these iOS devices for my kids you have to set up an email account in the mail app because

⏹️ ▶️ John every application that sends email is gonna throw you into that stupid mail app and if you don’t have an account configured you just can’t use that feature

⏹️ ▶️ John of those applications so you need some sort of little Sentinel mail

⏹️ ▶️ John application configured in Apple mail just to support emailing from all the other applications that you’re going to use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah what about services we can see any improvement there like web services

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well like iCloud for example oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lol no

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean there is they keep making things better with the you know iCloud

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey core

⏹️ ▶️ John storage and the key values are I’m sure there’ll be improvements there and blah, blah, blah. But I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John any new iCloud APIs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or even just it actually working.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, they’ve been making steady progress in that area, but it’s like fundamentally

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like an architecture type thing where you’re not expecting an API that you just want it to work

⏹️ ▶️ John within the bounds of its original design. But if the original design precludes

⏹️ ▶️ John it ever being having a certain level of performance or ever having a certain level of reliability. You’re just

⏹️ ▶️ John like, well, just do as well as you can within that. And that’s why I mentioned a new API, like a new API

⏹️ ▶️ John that does a new thing architected differently. Like as you talked about the push API thing, you can imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John that the backend for the, you know, the push notification system is substantially different

⏹️ ▶️ John than the backend for the iCloud core data. And

⏹️ ▶️ John those choices, those different choices they made, influence how the API is designed and how it

⏹️ ▶️ John performs and how well it does what it’s being asked to do. And so I think new iCloud

⏹️ ▶️ John APIs would be your opportunity to make something much, much better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whereas the alternative thing is just take the existing APIs with the existing design parameters

⏹️ ▶️ John and make them better, remove the bugs and add the features. And they did a lot of that with iCloud, with Core

⏹️ ▶️ John Data iCloud stuff in Mavericks, and I’m sure they’re continuing that, but

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not the type of thing that’s gonna wow someone in a session, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I feel like we’re being even more noncommittal and hand-wavy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than usual. Like last year, we knew that it was gonna be a visual refresh, and we were pretty confident

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about that, and that’s about all we knew, but it’s a lot more than I feel like we know now. We know about HealthBook.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What else do we really know with any sort of certainty? Anything?

⏹️ ▶️ John The scheduling is really throwing things off, because we have these tees from starting from late last

⏹️ ▶️ John year of new category, but it’s too vague, so we don’t know what it is. So we just have to pick from the vague

⏹️ ▶️ John wearable, vague TV, unknown, whatever. That tells us nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the gimme is to be like, oh, Mac hardware revision’s well. The CPUs are delayed. So it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John everything’s up in the air. If you had to predict what Apple was going to introduce this year, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think we would be more

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco confident.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, what will they have ready in time for June?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s a really tough call. You’re right. I mean, it’s there’s no guarantee that they’re going to have anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mind blowing ready for June. Like it could just be like, all right, here’s a visual refresh for Mac OS 10.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here’s, you know, a less significant improvement in iOS eight. And go for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Here you go. And here’s a microsection on how to use the new stuff in iOS 10 and Mac OS 10 point ten point or iOS eight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Mac OS ten point ten point ten point ten. There’s there’s nothing stopping them from that. just being it like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there might be no hardware announcements, no new category announcements, nothing exciting at all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco except the new software, which, you know, in a developer conference, that is that is, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, technically adequate. It also is is a not unprecedented. They’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done that before.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, then you’d be reading the tea leaves to say like, are they really they’re really emphasizing being able to draw your app at different

⏹️ ▶️ John sizes. And then you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like, is that

⏹️ ▶️ John for the bigger iPhone 6? Is that for side-by-side on the iPad Air? Like, you can read those tea leaves. And then there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the hidden stuff, like M7, which you don’t find out about until the September iPhone announcement.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, then here’s these new APIs. And they were kind of in iOS 7 all along. But

⏹️ ▶️ John they could do that. I think that would be sufficient for

⏹️ ▶️ John a conference. Say we’re revising all our OSes, and here’s a bunch of hints for new APIs. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it would be quite a letdown after the past couple fun years, even just stuff like the Mac Pro, or you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, I think that was an exciting announcement, even if it didn’t have much impact on people’s lives in general, it adds

⏹️ ▶️ John it definitely adds to the keynote experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, as a user of all this stuff, and as a developer using all this stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would actually be really happy with just software improvements, because Apple has a lot of potential software improvements,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially if you’re tackling a major refresh in Iowa in 10.10.10.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they there’s there’s room for this like they could do a lot here I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love if they weren’t distracted on all sorts of new projects and could focus their engineering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco resources on the things that that need it I just don’t believe that’s the case

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe they are working on big stuff it is pulling resources away from everything else and it is going to be new but it might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not be ready yet or maybe we’ll all be proven wrong I mean honestly it’s kind of fun not knowing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much ahead of time because when there’s a whole bunch of leaks, it kind of ruins the fun

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the anticipation of the keynote.

⏹️ ▶️ John This will sound great next week when all the leaks have come out. Listen to the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco show.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You’re recording this almost a week before we’re going to publish it. So yeah, you’re right. Because you’re right. Like there’s all the good leaks that come out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next week and we’ll find out.

⏹️ ▶️ John I put two questions that show notes here. One was what are you most looking forward to WWDC? And then the other one is just kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of the same question rephrase, but a little bit different angles. to choose one realistic

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that you want your wishlist thing that you want to see announced at WODC. Like you don’t have to

⏹️ ▶️ John be predicting that it’s going to happen, but it has to be, you know, within the realm of possibility. What would that be?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Definitely interapp communication. I think it’s possible. I don’t know how, but I think it could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be. I think it could be done.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s definitely realistic. And that you if they say something about that in the keynote, you’ll be the most excited about that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know if I’ll be Mike Hurley at Marco’s XOXO talk excited but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll be really excited. I don’t know. We’ll see. Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is so you’re asking what what I think is the most likely or what I would want the most? No,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is like your most wished for thing, but it has to be realistic. Okay, and it to be announced

⏹️ ▶️ John at the keynote. It doesn’t have to be like you’re predicting it. But like man, it’s possible for Apple to do this. And I would be really excited

⏹️ ▶️ John if they did.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think I’m gonna have to go with spheric in the chat room With a thunderbolt retina display,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but if they if that’s not realistic, which I think it is I think they could very much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do a 4k thunderbolt retina display. Yep, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s that is definitely realistic I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean otherwise I would say Casey’s thing of internet communication other and if I can’t do that because it’s already taken then I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say New UI kit like framework for OS 10

⏹️ ▶️ John Realistic is the wrong word. What we’re saying is like feasible. Because Apple would never announce a monitor. It

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t seem like the monitor would ever rate enough to get in a thing, but it’s a thing they could make. It didn’t seem like

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro would ever rate enough

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get in the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. Oh sure, well the Mac Pro is interesting and new, but anyway, like, Apple could make that

⏹️ ▶️ John right now if they wanted. Why are they not doing it? Because they hate us. But that’s, you know, that’s realistic. My thing, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think, it’s actually kind of surprised me is the reason I put this question in, is is Retina

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Air, a new form factor, a MacBook Air with a non-crappy

⏹️ ▶️ John screen that’s also better viewing angles, Retina, and more

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting, maybe it’s not tapered as much, maybe it’s just like a super thin 13 inch thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I said, I think they could show it. I think they probably have it all designed up and

⏹️ ▶️ John ready. They just can’t ship it because there’s no CPUs for it, but hey, I’ll wait six months

⏹️ ▶️ John for a computer not gonna buy anyway. I’ve done that before. Yeah, exactly. I like

⏹️ ▶️ John seeing new laptops introduced. I was excited when the Retina MacBook Pros were introduced

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’ll be excited again to see what the next evolution of the Air is. So I’m really hoping that

⏹️ ▶️ John they show that even though it’s not ready.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wonder, do you think the need for a Retina 12-inch MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air is that strong because the 13-inch Retina

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Pro is so good. It’s such a great all-arounder for so many people. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not that expensive, it has the nice Retina screen, it is very small, it is almost air-sized,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s big enough still to have a nice size battery and a nice CPU in there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think the 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro reduces a lot of the need for the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, because I think they’ll have to separate from each other a little bit but basically what I’m looking for

⏹️ ▶️ John is the air internals so forget about a discrete GPU ever. I don’t think that the 13 doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have a discrete anyway but it’s possible they could in that size form factor. And like I said maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John it won’t be tapered as much as the old ones because they gotta fit more battery for the retina display but it should still be,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you put one in one hand and one

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in the other it would be clear

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not a 13 inch pro, this is the 12 inch air.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And it

⏹️ ▶️ John may end up pushing the 13 inch up market. Maybe the 13 suddenly starts sprouting more powerful GPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John if not a discrete one. Whereas the Air is always going to have whatever the super ultra everything

⏹️ ▶️ John on one chip CPU that Intel offers and the 13 inch Pro is going to have

⏹️ ▶️ John the okay, well, this isn’t the super low power one. It’s a little bit more powerful than that. So I think there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John room in the lineup for it. And I’m excited to see I’m kind of bored of the form factor of the

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Pros now that they’ve sort of evolved to what we think is the final form here and they just keep getting thinner.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the Air is I still think there’s room for something that looks a little different than the current wedge type things.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m so sick of those screens on the current Airs. I really wanted to make a nicer screen on an

⏹️ ▶️ John Air-sized device. Someone in the chat reminds me about iPad Pro. The iPads were just revised.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I don’t even think that’s within the realm of feasibility. I don’t think they’re.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, not in June. Yeah, this fall, they’ll probably announce new iPads.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t think it’s the type of thing, because the MacBook Airs are coming. There’s going to be MacBook Airs

⏹️ ▶️ John based on Broadwell, and it could conceivably happen this calendar year. iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John I think is outside the realm of possibility just because iPad Air is not that old yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John But who knows with iOS 8 side by side, I guess they could throw it in there. But I would be more excited actually for

⏹️ ▶️ John to see what the new Red and Air looks like, hoping that it’s a different shape than just another

⏹️ ▶️ John increasingly thin slate type thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. I don’t know if it counts as realistic or not, but the thing I’m most looking forward to is is there going to be a new product

⏹️ ▶️ Casey category? And if so, what the crap is it? And I would love

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for it to be something that’s surprising. And we’ll see. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t even conjecture what it would be.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not my most look forward to thing, because I can’t pin it down. It’s just an amorphous cloud of whatever. And

⏹️ ▶️ John honestly, I’m not interested probably in anything wearable. And a TV

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, I have so little faith that anything they’ll do will be interesting to me. And a revised

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV, I’m not sure I would maybe I would get it, because it’s $99. Who cares? Whatever. like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s too, I don’t know what it is yet. I can’t say that I’m most looking forward to that because I don’t just want the novelty. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want Apple to do something different. No, I have to see what it is. If it’s something awesome, I’ll love it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But if it’s something I’m not interested in, yeah, it’s great they did a new thing, but I’m never gonna get it, so whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Random question, are they going to transition the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros to be black aluminum in the style of the Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I would love it because I’ll tell you what, like the Mac Pro is a nice looking machine. It’s, it is basically,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the color is basically a glossy version of the iPhone 5S slate color.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the iPhone 5S slate color is really nice too. And they could definitely use that, because glossy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would not work on a MacBook, obviously. It would look terrible, it would have, well they did it before,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but glossy metal I think would show a lot more fingerprints than the old plastic MacBooks did. So I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. I would love it if the, if a Retina Thunderbolt display

⏹️ ▶️ Marco matched the new Mac Pro in color and finish might be a little reflective, but if it’s just on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bezel and or the bezel, as John would say, then then

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ll offer it in black, but it’s $150 extra.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Remember

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when they did that? Yeah. Black books.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nice. Yeah, that was around the time I bought my first Mac. I don’t know. I just I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it could be a really neat differentiator to keep aluminum for the quote unquote consumer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey grade stuff and make everything black for the professional grade stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So a black Thunderbolt display, a black Mac Pro, black MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros, perhaps even a black, what do you call the magic mouse that isn’t a magic mouse,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the magic touch pad trackpad thing, which then begs the question, would you have a black magic mouse?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do they sunset the magic mouse brand and make me very sad?

⏹️ ▶️ John I would love for them to kill that stupid mouse and make a decent mouse. It seems unlikely, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it. I like it too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, I mean, a mouse is, you know, something like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John something that you hold is gonna have this broad spectrum of do you like a high mouse or a low mouse, a wide mouse or a skinny mouse,

⏹️ ▶️ John a mouse that’s contoured or a mouse that’s not, you know, and so it’s not gonna say this is a bad mouse, I’m just gonna say I don’t like a

⏹️ ▶️ John mouse that’s that low. I don’t like a mouse that’s that heavy, I don’t like a mouse that’s that low. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John if that’s the only mouse that Apple makes, Apple doesn’t make a mouse for me. And historically,

⏹️ ▶️ John not all of Apple’s mice have been that heavy and that low. is a new kind of design direction.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m ready to see what the next design direction is for mice, but I don’t think they care enough to change it. And so I’ll just continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to. I’ve been using a third-party mouse since the one that was semicircle

⏹️ ▶️ John on the bottom. They came with the Power Mac 6100. That’s the last Apple mouse that I used, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, I use the Magic Mouse because I am a really heavy user of, what is it, screens that they used to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey call it, the virtual desktops. And to use a third-party mouse that doesn’t have multi-touch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to swipe between my virtual desktops is terrible, or at least in any mouse I’ve ever tried.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have to bring the violin music back. Yeah, you do need to bring the violin music

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John back.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s true, though. Apple’s, the touch surface on the Magic Mouse is so much better than the touch surface on other touch

⏹️ ▶️ John surface type mice that I’ve used. I mean, it’s true of Apple’s trackpads compared to everyone else’s trackpads.

⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone else just uses whatever the cheapest sensor they can put in the device, and Apple doesn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and so I would love to see a more bulbous Magic Mouse. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think it’ll happen, but I can’t. I don’t care for the trackpad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very much. I can use it, but I don’t care for it. I grew up on the TrackPoint on IBM ThinkPad, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I still miss having one of those. And when I’m at my desk for more than a few minutes,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I tend to like to use a proper mouse. And because of my obsession with virtual desktops, it has to be a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Magic Mouse.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the Magic Mouse is a beautiful piece of sculpture. I love how it looks. I just don’t like holding it in my

⏹️ ▶️ John hand.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just love the inertial scrolling with it because I used to before this I used the Logitech MX revolution that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had had this awesome like heavy weighted flywheel scroll thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You if you flicked it hard enough and you had their software installed It would unlock and spin freely for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a while until you like slow it down or stopped with your finger Then it would lock and become notchy again It was a fantastic mouse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was plagued with terrible software and terrible support by like alternative mouse drivers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on OS 10 and then they stopped making it. And so it was like it was awesome when it worked

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it just it worked so rarely. Now you can’t buy a new one and so the Magic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mouse with its touch inertial scrolling kind of replaced that for me because like once you get used to the inertia scrolling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having the having an old like notchy type scroll wheel where you’re scrolling by like a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco non accelerating rate is barbaric like an animal.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And on that bombshell. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, uh,,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Dash, and NatureBox. And we will see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cuz

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research. Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. It was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O, A-R-M, E-N-T,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Armin,

⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R, A-C, USA Syracuse. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to. Accidental, tech

⏹️ ▶️ John podcasts so long.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was gonna say, we’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel. if we’re talking about mouse revisions

⏹️ ▶️ John the mouse yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco predictions no it’s just like

⏹️ ▶️ John what what possible hardware does Apple has that needs to be revised well the magic track bread is pretty old

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco now hasn’t been changed in

⏹️ ▶️ John a while Apple doesn’t seem to want to make monitors anymore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would like to see if they do end up doing some kind of cosmetic update with a lot of the stuff like the aluminum

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard and stuff like that like they’ve used that that bare brushed aluminum look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for so long that it might help to just do a little refresh on that. That’s what I’m saying. Like, you know, do something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the space gray color or the Mac Pros glossy space gray looking color.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just, you know, do like, just do like a cosmetic refresh with not that much different under the hood

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for all their little peripherals and stuff that all just have brushed aluminum now.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was saying like the MacBook Pros like in their final form because it’s like they, they went to

⏹️ ▶️ John aluminum and they slowly revised, revised, revised, removed doors, sealed everything in, soldered

⏹️ ▶️ John everything to the board, and now it’s like, okay, this is the this is the logical conclusion of

⏹️ ▶️ John making a MacBook Pro out of a solid brick of aluminum, hollowing it out and shoving the insides in.

⏹️ ▶️ John And now it’s like, all right, can you change the color? Can you change the texture? Can you change the shape? Because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not gonna go away from aluminum, that’s for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s why I think if they were to hypothetically make a black Pro line

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would be the perfect moment like Marco was saying to do this light visual refresh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so it’s more than just painting black on top of aluminum.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Come on, we’re in a thunderbolt, come on, you can do it. Yeah, we didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John even talk about Sapphire.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s all these rumors about where Sapphire is going to go. I think it’s pretty clear that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re going to keep using it for Touch ID of course and they need a lot of it to do that because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Touch ID is in every iPhone 5S and you would expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that this fall when there’s new iPhones and iPads, it’s now going to be in the new iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the last year’s model if they keep the 5S around. So there’s going to be even more for iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco demand. Hopefully they would add it to iPads because it’s really weird once you get used to it on the phone to not have it on your iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you’re looking at a lot of Sapphire demands right there versus some of the rumors that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say like if you’re gonna use it for the whole iPhone screen that’s a lot more like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that it’s such a massive quantity more I don’t think they could make enough of it even in their new plant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in Arizona or whatever like that’s that would require so much more sapphire than just what they have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now I just think the volume is is impractical I would like an iPhone 7 right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so maybe you know if they have if they are doing something that has like a watch face

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could see plausibly okay maybe you know maybe that’s where it would be going you know something where you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have some kind of wearable with, you know, a medium, smaller, medium sized screen, you need to be very, very resilient.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It could go there. But this could just be one of those things where, you know, there’s just not much of a story here. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for iPhone home buttons to just make more of them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. I’m I’m getting more and more excited. The more I realize that we don’t know crap about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what’s going on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it definitely is more exciting this way. Like when, you know, there’s been so many recent keynotes in the last few years where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost everything has been ruined ahead of time. And it just isn’t fun like you know we still go and we still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretend to be excited But it’s so much better when we’re actually genuinely surprised

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s always excited for me because I always have the terror of when they’re gonna announce the release date for us 10

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’ve won the lottery for the most part so far

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, they could say and it’s shipping in three weeks, and I’m screwed

⏹️ ▶️ John Do we want to do titles are there any let’s check this crazy show about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me my crazy hack together show bot from 20 minutes before the show started

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the way I apologize in advance for how crappy this is where are you saving the data in my SQL

⏹️ ▶️ John what do you mean a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco overkill what would you do if you had 20 minutes to rewrite this way and where would you store it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey memory

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know I guess if you got the database there already if you’re you’re supposed to be an iOS developer you should be storing

⏹️ ▶️ John this in a p-list now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is actually it was a fun exercise because I’ve I very rarely coded like mad under time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pressure. I certainly haven’t done it recently, so it was kind of fun. It was like a fun

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hackathon for 20 minutes with myself. Sounds terrible, but no it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was fun. It was and you know obviously there’s tons of stuff I could do to make it better.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It probably won’t be worth that, but now I have something where like if I end up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco open sourcing this framework that I’ve been wanted to open source forever. This could be like the test app that I open source

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with it. So here’s an example of how to use it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is this not sorted by vote? I have to click to sort by vote?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s also no AJAX voting, which is much worse than the sorting problems. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I ran out of time. Come on, give me a break.

⏹️ ▶️ John Form submissions. The old ways are best.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, John, only you can bitch and moan about something that was whipped together in 20 minutes out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the blue and not sound like a world class jerk doing it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it sounds like it should take less time and be less effort. Like form submission is the

⏹️ ▶️ John hard way to do it. You gotta make an entire form with a little field and a button and then

⏹️ ▶️ John like yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How hard do you think it is to make a form?

⏹️ ▶️ John It just seems more heavyweight and then the whole page has to reload and you lose your place. It’s like you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John sacrificing functionality for like yeah. I guess if you don’t know the APIs already

⏹️ ▶️ John but if you have jQuery loaded you just attach handlers and do the submission it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John super easy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the final form that’s interesting I like that oh I’ve now lost my place because I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco voted for it wearing electronics

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is just not cool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s true no it’s like these these modern smart watches they’re like they’re like calculator

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watches in the

⏹️ ▶️ John 80s they’re worse the calculator watches were sleek and elegant in comparison to like a pebble

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know I don’t think so I oh they were yes don’t you remember that they

⏹️ ▶️ John were

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco terrible. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John they were way thinner than a Pebble, way smaller than a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Pebble.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, Pebble’s way nicer.

⏹️ ▶️ John Pebble’s not nicer than a calculator

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch. It is. It’s not by a lot, but it is.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, the Pebble looks like you’re wearing like a lunchbox on your wrist. An

⏹️ ▶️ John ugly lunchbox. With like grommets and like, ugh, it’s terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I don’t think it’s that bad, but it’s not great, obviously. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just… My grandfather had a metal calculator watch like I was like a grown up,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it was a Casio, I think, but it was like the fancy, you know, gentleman’s one where instead of just being plastic

⏹️ ▶️ John with a bunch of little plastic nubs, it was all metal and smooth with flush keys. It was awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, what else going on?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I didn’t do my homework, but I did play flappy golf.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Does that count as a game?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, sure. I know I played flappy golf, too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It isn’t that good of a game. I mean, it’s literally just like Super Stickman Golf 2 with the Flappy Bird

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing as the mechanic instead of balls.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know, but that’s a clever remix slash commentary on Flappy

⏹️ ▶️ John Bird.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It is.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a good way to reuse resources they already had. And I think if you had never seen Super Stickman Golf,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a reason. It works in a world where Flappy Bird exists. I think it

⏹️ ▶️ John was clever. I just don’t enjoy playing it that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much. Yeah, I kind of wish they had made original courses for it, some of the some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the ones that come with it just don’t make sense and it’s kind of obvious but otherwise yeah it was it’s a fun diversion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a little too easy and and there’s you know zero replay value

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s it’s funny so anyway I did play that and I was greatly annoyed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the game center pop-ups in it you were totally right game center ruins everything and I eventually just law

⏹️ ▶️ Marco eventually logged into game center just because just to make it stop bothering me to log in the game center

⏹️ ▶️ John and the thing is like it used to be that a green felt thing would come down and spoil your application

⏹️ ▶️ John and now a bubblous white thing comes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down to spoil it. Like it’s- Well and you have to sit there watching it animate in. Like you have to sit there for like seven

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or eight seconds watching this thing show itself to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it will never match anything that it goes on top of because no one is ever going to make an app that looks like either

⏹️ ▶️ John the old game center or the new game center. So it’s like, worried all about this visual stuff. Let me take a

⏹️ ▶️ John window from another application that doesn’t match yours and shove it on top of your UI. Like it’s never going to work. Ever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love it do you think game center will get any updates I would say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m guessing zero I’m guessing like literally no changes at all to game center

⏹️ ▶️ John I would love to be in the meeting where they decided or we’re getting rid of the felt what says game to you and someone said oh I know

⏹️ ▶️ John puddles of colored goo puddles of color good I mean it’s not even

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe they were smoking something I don’t understand

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is why this is why I’m like I’m just so you know as I said last week with you know like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting some new blood in the executive team

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I mean, it’s I think it’s it’s design people don’t play games But I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know if it’s they could be young people too Like I think everyone who works on game center should be forced to get

⏹️ ▶️ John an Xbox live account To get you know a PlayStation account to get a steam and just like not that those are great

⏹️ ▶️ John examples of interface But just see what everyone else is doing in the realm of things to keep track of like your friends

⏹️ ▶️ John and what games that you Play and like this is not new territory tons of other companies do this

⏹️ ▶️ John and they all do it in a way that is more successful successful visually and technologically

⏹️ ▶️ John frankly than what Apple does so I get the feeling the people doing game center Either have never

⏹️ ▶️ John used those things or they’ve used them But their bosses say make it like this and they just do what their bosses say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, yeah I’m talking about the bosses being being you know the potential problem here like like you know the settings icon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In iOS 7 where it has all these you know these inner lined gears or these concentric gears

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like do you think this is like? How a bunch of 50 year old men view

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gears like oh well how about on a bike that’s where we’ve seen gears before that’s what setting should mean it just it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know it just seems so

⏹️ ▶️ John out of touch those aren’t bike gears they’re watch gears have to go even better old men with watches

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how about a high-end watch which like how many 25 year olds have ever even seen a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-end watch that has the exposed gears visible through the transparent glass like you know how many people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have ever seen that that are you know of this generation at all I mean and it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I’m kind of excited to see the, uh, the OS 10, like new look introduction video.

⏹️ ▶️ John Cause I think that was the best part of the Iowa seven announcement was that little video they put together. It’s like the first time we were

⏹️ ▶️ John seeing Iowa seven and it was crazy looking and the head, all those animation, you know, you know that video.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah. And that, and that was actually, that was a major moment in last year’s keynote because it was so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shocking. And you know, I was down on them before for leaning too much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on videos in the recent keynotes where like, you know, I don’t think it’s a very good keynote if we have to sit there and watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 20 minutes of canned video clips that were there basically commercials like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know the whole keynote is a commercial in a way but like at least you know give us the dignity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a human presentation as much as you can and just use videos sparingly and I thought last year they went over the line and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use too much video that being said that was a really good video and that was a good use of it

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah and the difference is that in the in the olden days back when jobs would do Macworld keynotes

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything. The first time you saw the UI was either on a slide, like

⏹️ ▶️ John they would show you elements of it on a slide or like some sort of theme image, and then they would go to a computer screen

⏹️ ▶️ John where he would be using it and you’d see the screen. Whereas this was a produced sort of like

⏹️ ▶️ John what you’re seeing is super high res images of their sort of design document animating together,

⏹️ ▶️ John showing, you know, and that’s, I think that is a much more interesting way to be introduced to a UI than seeing screenshots or

⏹️ ▶️ John seeing closeups of theme things. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ John hope OS 10 rates getting a similar video.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. When it’s when it’s that dramatic of a redesign, I agree with if it’s like, you know, here’s a new version of I work like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think that matters as much, but but yeah, I agree with with the major redesign.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s about a new new design language. Like, you know, what? Everything’s Helvetica.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whiter, really, really thin. No more overlapping windows.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, well, that’s that’s so last decade.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Exactly. Last

⏹️ ▶️ John four

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco decades.

⏹️ ▶️ John Johnny, I’ve go on screen. Explain why overlapping windows are so passe.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, they aren’t true to the object itself. You don’t really have overlapping monitors.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re not true to the materials that you’re using. They’re unapologetically tiled.

⏹️ ▶️ John If only they did that, and then Federighi would come in from the side and push Johnny off his stool

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, no, seriously, we didn’t do that. It’s still a functioning OS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey On a random note, about 5 or 10 minutes ago, I started looking into a Node IRC

⏹️ ▶️ Casey package. And I now have a show bot that’s at least listening for suggestions

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is doing zero with them, but it’s listening for them

⏹️ ▶️ John The bot’s the easy part once you have the library you can make it join the channel You make it watch everything when something matches

⏹️ ▶️ John exclamation point s and a bunch of stuff you you build the url and you hit it Yeah problem solved.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Maybe i’ll fiddle with this and see if I can get it up

⏹️ ▶️ John That was my that was my first cpan module was a bot a library for making bots

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You couldn’t just make the bot You had to make the bot factory factory.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the same thing. Well, it was it was for you guys. Remember, you don’t remember this is your into Max, but there was an application

⏹️ ▶️ John called Hotline. Do you remember that? Maybe?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, anyway, it was it’s just like IRC, but it’s like it was it was an application, a client server

⏹️ ▶️ John application written by like a 16 year old. So right away, you know, it’s going to be awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it was for the Mac only. And it was used basically to trade illegal software.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You know, like

⏹️ ▶️ John the people would set up servers in their house and you could join it as a user and you’d get an account and they had files.

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was basically like how to design your own local IRC thing. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John the protocol was all binary because all the person was doing, I think, was just shoving native C structures

⏹️ ▶️ John out onto the wire. I don’t even think he was doing like H10 or all

⏹️ ▶️ John things that change into network byte order and all that stuff. It was just like native spewing out C

⏹️ ▶️ John structs onto the wire. It was not documented, so I had to reverse engineer it by watching

⏹️ ▶️ John hex dumps of the network graphic and figuring out the packet formats. And once I had done that, then I

⏹️ ▶️ John could write a library that knew how to read and write those packets. And once I’d written the library, then you can write a bot.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I did. My bot was cool. Well, your bot factory was cool. Someone else made the cool bot.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I made the bot. I made the framework to make the bot. And then I made the bot with the framework. You had

⏹️ ▶️ John icons and stuff. The bot would change its icon based on what people said. And you could send and receive files to

⏹️ ▶️ John people. And you could have private conversations with the bot. And it would log things. It was all the things that IRC

⏹️ ▶️ John bots do, but not in IRC. And with a few extra capabilities, it don’t exist in IRC.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, Hotline was terrible. That code is terrible. The module is terrible, but very first CPAN module.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so Casey didn’t have to do that. He just downloaded a Node module. He was up and running.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, you two keep blabbing. I might actually have it posted in Marco’s thing here in a few minutes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why don’t we just have Casey rewrite the whole thing in Node? That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I should do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, if I could do this in 20 minutes in PHP, You can probably can’t you do it in like 30 seconds you just type in like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know it’s it’s one line and node plus 150,000 lines of dependencies pretty much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah just do that why why would I write this in PHP if you can do that because the one thing I really don’t want to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to try to figure out IRC stuff with PHP that that’s I know I’d have to use some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco third-party code and it would probably be awful and I’d rather not do that so yeah just figure it out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s your next project that’s your new homework rather than play a game this week, do this. You can probably write this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whole thing in less time than it takes to beat Monument Valley.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I already did my homework

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though. Yeah, I know. I’m giving you my homework to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, you can’t assign homework when you haven’t even done your own homework.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was busy playing Flappy Golf and could not play Monument Valley.

⏹️ ▶️ John Mm-hmm. Monument Valley is a better game than Flappy Golf.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope so.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Low bar,

⏹️ ▶️ John but just saying.