Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

50: Disk Light Observer Effect

Making iOS more powerful, ARM Macs, the Mac’s 30th anniversary, debating iStat Menus, and the Motorola debacle.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Want me to put more bad music on? I have lots to choose

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey from.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, actually, I have nothing to complain about anymore. That music was fantastic.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah? I have something to complain about. It was like turning on the radio, like top 40 radio in the 90s. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not an attractive thing. Ah!

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so how about that iPad Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I put that in there just to make a second run at this, because after the last show, we talked

⏹️ ▶️ John about this in the after show and hearing it back, I’m not sure I successfully communicate what

⏹️ ▶️ John I was trying to say. When I listen to myself, I don’t think if I didn’t already know what I was thinking, I would have understood

⏹️ ▶️ John myself. So I thought I’d start by asking you two to see if you can summarize what I was trying to say about

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPad Pro. And then when you fail to say what is in my head, I will try to clarify.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow, dude, that happened like a week ago. I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco what you said.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Come on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have some idea.

⏹️ ▶️ John Give it a shot. You were asking why does anyone ever want an iPad Pro, and I tried to give you the reason why I think a

⏹️ ▶️ John larger, more capable iPad is an inevitable thing that will happen someday. I

⏹️ ▶️ John tried to explain why.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think your reasoning for why it had to be larger was that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the OS gets more advanced and allows more advanced types of usage,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you will have to at some point have some kind of multiple window kind of arrangement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or the possibility for multiple windows whether it’s split or you know whether it’s like a fixed setup or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a flexible setup you know but it was something it was mainly about it has to get bigger because it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will get more advanced and more advanced needs more window space was that just

⏹️ ▶️ John that was like the secondary thing we ended up talking about but the the main thing i think i’ll take another shot

⏹️ ▶️ John in here the main thing i was trying to get at was what i have in the show notes here, but it’s the better for people metric.

⏹️ ▶️ John And we got back to it, we circled around back to it a little bit at the end, but I was thinking of it

⏹️ ▶️ John in terms of like, in the days, the DOS days, before the graphical user

⏹️ ▶️ John interface, when the graphical user interface came along, it was clear that GUIs are better for

⏹️ ▶️ John people. Meaning that, yeah, the command line with Unix and DOS and

⏹️ ▶️ John all the things that preceded it is good and powerful, and you can get stuff done, done and a lot of people can use it. But overall,

⏹️ ▶️ John you look at the GUI, you look at the command line, you say, the GUI is better for people to use. More people

⏹️ ▶️ John are going to be able to successfully use a computer with the GUI. It’s more pleasant to use. It’s easier.

⏹️ ▶️ John And maybe you guys didn’t live through this, because you don’t remember the debates. But there were real debates about whether this whole GUI

⏹️ ▶️ John thing is a useful idea at all, or whether it’s just some silly diversion.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What do you mean we didn’t live through this? I lived through this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you were very young. Or maybe you were still fighting, though. But you know, like we were

⏹️ ▶️ John alive. Yeah, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you were alive. But we were also in preschool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, no, that’s not true. I mean, well, 1984. Well, no, in 1984, we were

⏹️ ▶️ John barely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey human. But I mean, if you consider that both of us were PC guys,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we were around, or at least I was using computers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey before Windows had really become a thing. And I remember using Windows 3.1 and thinking it was a piece of crap

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because, well, it was a piece of crap. And I remember slinging autoexec.bat files

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like you couldn’t even imagine and config sys files to figure out for which game

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I needed a mouse and which didn’t and so on and so forth. We don’t need to turn this into another retro podcast. I’m just saying I was around

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for the transition in my own way, maybe not on a industry level, but on a personal level.

⏹️ ▶️ John When you were when you were that age, though, you probably weren’t thinking about what the GUI means for the future of the

⏹️ ▶️ John industry, you know, like that on that type of level, the people who were writing articles and magazines about whether this was a good

⏹️ ▶️ John idea or not. But in hindsight, it’s so clear. GUIs are better for people. And

⏹️ ▶️ John there was a big debate about it, and it took a long time. And eventually, all computers said, all computers are GUIs. No, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not. I’ve got a command line on my Mac. It’s like, no, the GUI took over because it’s better for people to

⏹️ ▶️ John use. iOS, I think of in relation to the regular

⏹️ ▶️ John Windows mouse pointer menus, WIMP type interface, I think of iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John as not as big a step from a command line to the GUI, certainly not, but as another sort of discontinuity in that type of

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. iOS and that type of touch interface is better for people than having a mouse and

⏹️ ▶️ John windows and menu bars and right clicking and docs and task bars and all

⏹️ ▶️ John the stuff that regular Windows type interfaces or Mac type interfaces use today.

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS is better for people. You see it yourself and how much more willing people

⏹️ ▶️ John are to use iPads and iPhones and all these technology devices

⏹️ ▶️ John that people use that same people would be much more intimidated by like a quote unquote real computer

⏹️ ▶️ John with the GUI. And again, doesn’t mean that the traditional windows menu pointer

⏹️ ▶️ John interface is going away or that, you know, like we still have the command line today. We’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John have GUIs, you know, for the similar period of time. But in general, the

⏹️ ▶️ John I. O. S. interface touch interfaces are better for people. All right. And when I see that that makes

⏹️ ▶️ John me think there’s no fighting against the interface. That’s better for people. Like it will eventually become the most

⏹️ ▶️ John common way that people use computers. If it isn’t already, if you can’t like smartphones as computers and everything. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And when I see that, I think, uh, it can’t be the thing that most

⏹️ ▶️ John people use for computing and remain as limited as it is now, because

⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise, you know, you don’t want any people today continue to have to use computers because they can’t get what they

⏹️ ▶️ John want to get done on this new thing. And so my logic is the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that’s better for people to use is here It’s not quite good enough or capable enough to

⏹️ ▶️ John subsume enough of the functionality of other things Just like when you know Windows 3.1 sucked you couldn’t do it, you know anything

⏹️ ▶️ John Things you can do on DOS or Unix command line. We’re not even close to being possible on a GUI

⏹️ ▶️ John but eventually the GUI became good enough and subsumed enough of the functionality of the command line that the command

⏹️ ▶️ John line was relegated to a very small window in the same operating system. You know, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John there, it’s here, we can use it when we want to. It’s important for developers and stuff like that, but a regular person who buys

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac does not use the command line and someday that’ll be true of iOS. A regular person who

⏹️ ▶️ John buys an iOS device doesn’t have to use a Windows mouse pointer GUI. So it’s just that simple logical

⏹️ ▶️ John progression. If that’s going to be the progression, it’s silly to think that this next thing that’s better for people

⏹️ ▶️ John won’t have to become more capable and take on the mantle of the thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s replacing in some respects. That’s what I was trying to get at. And you can disagree

⏹️ ▶️ John with it. You could say, well, I don’t think iOS is better enough, or I don’t think iOS is really better for

⏹️ ▶️ John people, or I think iOS will not have to take on any of the capabilities of the Mac, and the Mac will stay exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John the way it is, and iOS will just go off into the future, and it does enough for people as it is. But I see all the people

⏹️ ▶️ John who use a Mac every day, and Like that’s not you know the number of people use a command line every day is really

⏹️ ▶️ John small the number of people use a Mac Every day is humongous Those people will

⏹️ ▶️ John want to move to the thing that’s better for people to the iOS style touch interface eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John If that device becomes capable enough for them to do their work on it How many of those people can you bring along

⏹️ ▶️ John how many people have to be stuck using a Mac? Well, it’s probably similar to the proportion of people who are stuck using command line. I use a command

⏹️ ▶️ John line every day certain professions and and context will require

⏹️ ▶️ John the use of a plain old GUI the same way they require the use of a command line today. But there’s tons and tons

⏹️ ▶️ John more people who use a Mac who never use a command line and those people will be using something like a

⏹️ ▶️ John tablet type form factor that’s much bigger and more capable many years in the future when it becomes possible to

⏹️ ▶️ John do so.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So let me play devil’s advocate for a second. So everything you just said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which sounds reasonable, but everything you just said is based upon an implied

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or stated assumption that the way that we have touch interfaces and tablets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now is better for people than the then you know the desktop and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Windows and everything else what if that’s not the case so so here’s some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things to consider so first of all there’s a few things about it that are worse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think we can pretty much all look around regular people and us and we can see that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco text input is definitely worse on tablets than on laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t include that at all because there’s no reason that you wouldn’t have a hardware keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well okay

⏹️ ▶️ John so like what I’m what I’m talking about mainly is like a menu

⏹️ ▶️ John bar, windows with little window widgets on, sliding them around on the screen, you know clicking

⏹️ ▶️ John and right clicking, having a mouse instead of a finger, like that all of that is what I’m getting at it.

⏹️ ▶️ John The text input is a artifact of the form factor, you know what I mean? Like

⏹️ ▶️ John the small tablet that you expect to carry with you versus something that would sit at your desk. I’m not saying people are going to have tablets and

⏹️ ▶️ John be walking around with them. If you are in design or some field where you’re going to be using this future thing, I

⏹️ ▶️ John envision you having something as big as your monitor but laid down on an architect’s drafting table with

⏹️ ▶️ John a keyboard in front of it or something so that you can get your work done in that context.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, okay, so let’s say this comes true. Let’s say you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a keyboard, the text input is solved for you, you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco easy ways to reach the interface from the keyboard in some kind of relatively ergonomic way, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it wouldn’t be like a tablet on a stand and having to reach your hand up and touch the screen constantly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you have to address that somehow, some kind of precision pointing of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some sort, more precision than a finger. Whether that’s a pen, whether it’s a mouse, whether it’s a touchpad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of thing, whether it’s just a giant touch screen so the touch targets are small enough, relatively speaking, that they can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be precise, who knows.

⏹️ ▶️ John It would have to be a stylus, I would imagine, because I’m thinking in creative fields, there are people already using

⏹️ ▶️ John styluses, so that’s not even that big of a change.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I actually enjoy the experience of using a pen, although I don’t use one regularly because I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoy a mouse more. But I think a stylus is a perfectly fine solution to that out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of everything that we have. So let’s say you’ve added all this, you have advanced

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways for people to get more work done. What if the reason why, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this idea out there in people’s heads that the iPad and everything is easier for people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What if the reason why is because it can’t support all that stuff? It can’t do complicated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco workflows and much multitasking to speak of and all this other stuff. And then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what if the process of adding those things to enable people to, quote, get more work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done on iOS makes it more like traditional PCs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and therefore removes that whole advantage that it supposedly had by being so much easier? And is it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco possible to add all those things without having that side effect? And I’m not sure it is.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the closeness of, you know, I was saying the gap between the GUI and the Mac is huge. And the gap

⏹️ ▶️ John between the Mac and iOS is much smaller. But I still think it’s significant enough.

⏹️ ▶️ John And in the case of the command line to the GUI, it was almost

⏹️ ▶️ John not possible to bring over enough command line stuff to negate the advantage of the GUI.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, Windows tried by basing it on DOS, and by having you boot into DOS, and having so many things still

⏹️ ▶️ John involving DOS, and having DOS underpin the thing for so long, and having it in your face and exposed to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that wasn’t enough to kill the GUI. If you wanted to kill iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ John you could do that by bringing over all the bad things from the Mac. But I think that you don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ John to bring over too many complexities from the Mac to make iOS more capable.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t think anyone would make the crazy mistake of bringing over the worst things about the Mac. Like, I don’t think anyone

⏹️ ▶️ John would ever say, I’ve got an idea. Why don’t we have a bunch of windows on our iPad screen with tiny little widgets in the corner?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because if you’ve ever seen anyone deal with a bunch of overlapping windows, it’s just too much. Why don’t we bring over the file system? Because

⏹️ ▶️ John we know how well people deal with navigating through folders and files. Why don’t we just have a big file system that we expose on

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPad? Again, I don’t think that would ruin it. You’re right, but I don’t think anyone would do that, or at least I don’t think Apple would do

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Maybe Android would do it. Maybe they already have it. I don’t know about Android.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s, it is possible to ruin it because it is close enough. It’s a close enough neighbor. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John some like a big, you know, or for example, bring over a mouse pointer and make you use a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John pointer for everything. Like, and then all of a sudden, things aren’t responsive to touch controls. It’s like, oh, well, it’s hard to use this app because they expect you to

⏹️ ▶️ John have a mouse pointer to work with the little window widgets or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that Apple, at least, would be dumb enough to bring over this. And if anything, Apple has been very

⏹️ ▶️ John reticent to bring over any of the more powerful things. And they’re bringing over very, very slowly. And there’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John no way they would bring over those horrible things. And then most of the horrible things I’m thinking about are things people don’t want to deal with, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, stolen printer drivers is like a thing from the ancient world. But Apple kind of already addressed

⏹️ ▶️ John that with AirPrint, saying we’re not doing the printer driver thing anymore. It’s your problem. we’re going to tell you how we’re going to speak, you better deal

⏹️ ▶️ John with it, uh, which is one way to get rid of printer drivers and the file system. I don’t think Apple’s going to be bringing that

⏹️ ▶️ John back. Uh, you know, dealing with apps the old way. I don’t think that’s coming back. I think the new way is better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, deal dealing with windows. Apple has to come up with something, but I don’t think they would bring over plain old windows

⏹️ ▶️ John cause that would be pretty stupid. So, uh, it’s possible to ruin it. Uh, perhaps

⏹️ ▶️ John unlike it is in the GUIs case from the GUI to the command line, but I think it’s unlikely that they’ll run it. And, and

⏹️ ▶️ John as I said, last show, the other alternative is rather than making iOS more capable, why don’t you make the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac simpler? And I think it’s easier to make iOS more capable than it is to

⏹️ ▶️ John make the Mac simpler, especially since a lot of other complexities the Mac have to live on, because some people will always need

⏹️ ▶️ John them the same way some people will always need the command line.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, but they are making the Mac simpler. I mean, isn’t that what things like gatekeeper and launch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey center pad thing, whatever you call it, aren’t isn’t that what that’s all about?

⏹️ ▶️ John But you can’t get rid of the overlapping windows.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, You can run an app full screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but that just adds complexity, as we talked about last time. Now you have yet another mode that you have to worry about. If you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John seen people deal with Windows, adding full screen doesn’t help them because now they’re trapped in some mode they don’t understand.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s it’s very difficult to take away complexity from the Mac to even get

⏹️ ▶️ John it to the close to the level of friendliness that iOS has. Whereas if you add capabilities to iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ John it can remain friendly to the people who don’t want those advanced abilities in the same way that if you don’t want to enable the multitasking gestures,

⏹️ ▶️ John that doesn’t bother any people. If you don’t know how to get to the multitasking switcher, you can just hit the home

⏹️ ▶️ John button and go back to the home screen every time. It still works for you in that simple mode. They’ve added capability without adding complexity.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking long term, like this gets tied up, that’s the other thing I think people are, it gets tied up in like, will Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John announce an iPad with Pro at the end of its name this year and it’ll be bigger? Like, who knows, who cares? Like, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John what I’m talking about. It’s not, I’m not talking about an upcoming imminent product or Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John plans for the next year or two or what iOS 8 is gonna be. I’m thinking long-term, and you’re right, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ John The entire thing is based on the premise that iOS is better for people, and it’s inevitable that

⏹️ ▶️ John many, many more people who currently can’t use iOS or anything like iOS to do their job

⏹️ ▶️ John will have to be served by this better thing. That’s the tide that’s coming, because if there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a thing out there that’s better for people, and people use it all the time, and I think most people would agree that

⏹️ ▶️ John using their phone or their iPad is better, they’ll want to use that to do more stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ John if they can’t, they’ll want more capability out of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Another assumption that might be worth questioning is whether iOS’s simplicity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today is overall easier for people. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as we discussed last episode with the storage limits and when people hit their storage limits, and it’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of crappy to figure out where that’s going and how to recover from that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS’s simplicity a lot of times will create the question in people’s minds of,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how do I do this? Or how do I fix this limitation? And a lot of times the answer is you can’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or it’s so complicated that it’s not even worth doing. Like simple things that on a computer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might be accomplished by drag and drop, or by hitting the open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dialog button in an app to open a file from somewhere else, from some other app. Stuff like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco attaching files to emails. Stuff that people generally know how to do on computers after not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much usage. A lot of those kinds of things are still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even more complicated on iOS than they are on a computer, because of its design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and because of its limitations.

⏹️ ▶️ John You think more people would be more successful at attaching a file to an email using a Mac than they would doing that same

⏹️ ▶️ John thing in iOS? Definitely. No question. No, I don’t think that’s the case.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Because in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS, you can’t do it from the email.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but I don’t know if that’s the way people think about it. Like, just because that’s the way it works in desktop mail application

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re used to it. You know, I think people are just as likely to, you know, holding down your finger on a picture

⏹️ ▶️ John is not great, but I think they’re just as likely to figure out the holding down your finger on a picture or hitting the little share icon. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s still it’s not completely intuitive, but there I think the dress is likely to come to it from that direction. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the main problem with attaching an email on the Mac is drag and drop, forget it, people doesn’t even occur to people, you can drag

⏹️ ▶️ John a little picture onto the just, that’s, I think that’s outside the realm of most people’s experience. But you

⏹️ ▶️ John know how to click the little paperclip icon. And when they click the little paperclip icon and whatever their mail application

⏹️ ▶️ John is, they get an open save dialog box and then you’re just off in the weeds and it’s like 5050 whether anyone’s gonna know what

⏹️ ▶️ John the hell to do with that. And let us maybe hope that they know how to click on the thing that takes them to the desktop and they’ll find the file on the desktop,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is where all their files are, because it’s the one place in the file system they can use that

⏹️ ▶️ John the running out of space, I think is another thing where it’s like, there are limits there are hardware limits to any piece of hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ John And when you run into those limits, At that point,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s when the reality of the computer smacks the user in the face, and you can’t do anything to protect them from it. You don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John infinite space on your device. Maybe some super clever cloud thing in the future

⏹️ ▶️ John could make it appear as if you have infinite space, but you don’t have infinite. It’s kind of like how multitasking

⏹️ ▶️ John makes it seem like you have infinite memory. They’re never going to say, oh, you’re out of memory. Please quit some applications so you can

⏹️ ▶️ John launch some more. Well, the combination of virtual memory and the expunging stuff is an iOS simplification

⏹️ ▶️ John makes people not have to worry about whether an application is running or not, or at least try to worry less about it. Uh, when you run out

⏹️ ▶️ John of space, have you ever seen anyone run out of space in the Mac? First of all, the Mac OS 10 behaves very, very

⏹️ ▶️ John badly. When you’re out of disk space, extremely badly, freaky things happen. It’s very easy

⏹️ ▶️ John to get into a situation where the OS can’t create another swap file. And it seems like your entire OS is frozen.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you get those warning dialogue boxes before that the OS will warn you, Oh, running out of space. What do people do about

⏹️ ▶️ John that? Yeah. Like best case scenario, they randomly start trying to drag things to the trash. That’s best case.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like, if you’ve seen people, this library folder, I don’t need that, do I? Like, that’s the way they made it invisible. Like, God forbid

⏹️ ▶️ John they get into that library folder and start going to their preferences folder, or like, I don’t understand what this is, I’m throwing that out. Application

⏹️ ▶️ John support? My applications don’t need any support. That’s best case. At least iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John protects them from doing that, but you run into those hardware limits. That’s one of the hardest problems. What do I do

⏹️ ▶️ John when all of the space for stuff is filled with stuff, whether that be memory or flash space

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, to go back a step, I almost think that the attachment thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a example of the iPad, or I guess I should say iOS in general,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting a little more, strong is a poor choice of words, a little better for power users.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s because, you know, Marco had said, well, there’s no way to attach something from an email. And you actually can. If you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get the little context menu up, and there may be a different term for that on iOS, but the little black pop-up menu,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you go like 35 levels deep in that past bold italics underlined and all that, you can actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey insert picture or video, I believe is the terminology

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used. Wait, really? Yeah. I knew you could copy and paste, but there’s actually like a button there to proactively

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wow, I didn’t know that. Exactly, and that only came in the last one or two versions of iOS. I don’t recall

⏹️ ▶️ Casey exactly when it was.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t you think people who grew up on smartphones, though, it’s more natural for them to start from the picture

⏹️ ▶️ John that they want to send to somebody and then say, OK, send this picture to Sue instead of start from the email application,

⏹️ ▶️ John compose a message to Sue, and then insert the picture. That’s totally a desktop computer user’s mindset, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think. It absolutely is. And as someone who grew up on a desktop computer, that is what I, up until

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whenever it was in iOS that they added this feature, every time I wanted to send a picture to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey someone, I’m just hardwired to start an email, send it to Aaron, let’s say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then, ah, crap, I got to start from photos. And then I got to leave my email,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey start from photos, and then I’ve lost my email that I’ve written unless I copy and paste, et cetera, et cetera. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so once I discovered that you can actually kick off the picture chooser,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey picture and video chooser, from within an email, that actually helped me a lot because I’m so hardwired. That’s my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey internal mental workflow is to start the email and then go get the attachment.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the most likely scenario for what I just described about the iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John not coming to pass is that it turns out that for the people who

⏹️ ▶️ John are currently using Macs and Mac-like systems to get their work done,

⏹️ ▶️ John the advantages of iOS are not compelling enough to make them leave behind all the things that annoy them. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John that they would prefer to use iOS. They do prefer sitting on the couch with their iPad and browsing

⏹️ ▶️ John through the web in their off time or whatever. But all of the things that annoyed

⏹️ ▶️ John them about the Mac and multiple windows and dealing with multiple Applications and dealing with little fidgety things

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t deal with an iOS Don’t annoy them enough to be willing to put up with what

⏹️ ▶️ John is the inevitable transition period when it? iOS is not quite capable enough

⏹️ ▶️ John and like there’s gonna be that middle period where Like who’s gonna be the first person to try to get

⏹️ ▶️ John their work done in iOS and you kind of see it now with the people bravely trying to use an iPad when they should just be using

⏹️ ▶️ John a MacBook Air just for the novelty factor of it but that’s on a very small scale. On a larger scale

⏹️ ▶️ John you need to get the people who are using their computers like they did for the GUI. People using their computers for real

⏹️ ▶️ John work. There were some people who had to say I’m actually gonna try this Windows thing or this Mac thing even though

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not even sure how I’m gonna be able to get my job done because I do everything in you know VisiCalc

⏹️ ▶️ John and VisiCalc isn’t available and I’ll try this new Excel thing and maybe that’ll work out. I’m not sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that transition period could prevent iOS type

⏹️ ▶️ John interfaces from taking the mantle of the personal computer in our lifetime. That I think

⏹️ ▶️ John is the most likely scenario for not happening.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I can’t help but wonder if the three of us are participating in one long

⏹️ ▶️ Casey troll of the TG in this topic.

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s like an outlier, I would say. If you were like, make your living right about technology, Those are the people who

⏹️ ▶️ John keep trying to do it. I’ll see what it’s like to do my work. Do I need a laptop? I’m going to leave the house without

⏹️ ▶️ John a laptop and just take my iPad and see how it goes. We’re all trying to experiment to varying degrees. If you have a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John and an iPad, sometimes you might just take the iPad to see how that goes and you learn whether it works for you or not and why it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John or does. I’m thinking of all the people who just spend all day at work in front of a

⏹️ ▶️ John computer and that computer is not running iOS or Android. It’s running Windows or OS X.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, Marko, what’s cool these days?

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s Sulal, Sulalpene. I don’t know, whatever. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they said, Max will be armed within the next five years. It’s logically next. And as someone who

⏹️ ▶️ Casey relies on a Windows VM in order to get their job done on a Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I surely hope not. I hope that I switch my career into a different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into a different segment, because if unless I’m missing something, if Max go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey arm, that’s going to make virtualizing X86 really stinky, just like it used to be before

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Max were Intel.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I’m just came out with their their new server platform, and they’re sort of defining the platform for

⏹️ ▶️ John arm arm in the data center and trying to make a common platform for arm style, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John personal computers more or less. I don’t think that, you know, if you wait long

⏹️ ▶️ John enough, in theory, if the arm destroys everything comes to pass,

⏹️ ▶️ John then the Mac can be the last thing to switch to arm. And by that point, everything is running arm and the data says running arm and all your

⏹️ ▶️ John servers are running arm and personal computers running on the max running arm. So then you’d be virtualizing

⏹️ ▶️ John like Linux on arm and windows on arm inside your virtual machine on arm and everything would work out.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, you don’t want to be the first one to go there and have everybody else still on x86. And then you lose your ability

⏹️ ▶️ John to do that virtualization.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I think, well, what do I virtualize? Well, I virtualize Windows because I have to for stupid work things because they still use Windows.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that is actually a legitimate concern about the future of computing. Because Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t want that business, the business being selling your company their mail server and stuff. Google kind of wants

⏹️ ▶️ John it. They want them to use Google Apps. But it’s such a difference between having your own software

⏹️ ▶️ John and doing everything through the cloud, especially Google’s cloud, that I’m not even sure that’s a good

⏹️ ▶️ John fit. So if Google isn’t a good fit for that business, and Apple doesn’t want that business, who gets

⏹️ ▶️ John that business? And if the answer is Microsoft keeps it forever, then yeah, maybe we’ll forever be stuck

⏹️ ▶️ John running Windows in a VM so we can use our works mail thing because I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but but that would be so much slower. I got to imagine like I remember, even as a non

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac person, I remember many, many, many years ago, that you could get some sort of card

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was basically a PC on an expansion card and you could virtualize within

⏹️ ▶️ Casey OS 789, I don’t even know, by using this PC on an expansion card. You would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know more about this. Do you know what I’m thinking of?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, they have like a 486 on a card. They have them for the Mac LC even so you could run like Windows software

⏹️ ▶️ John on your education computers inside your school. I know the cards you’re talking about. The better analogy for

⏹️ ▶️ John you is like virtual PC, which was you would emulate x86 on the power PC and it would barely sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of run but it was super slow and that’s that’s why my lovely Mac Pro is a dream machine it runs

⏹️ ▶️ John everything natively

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John Unix Mac and Windows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the reasons why the Intel switch was so easy for Mac owners for the most part is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco switching to Intel came with a massive performance boost also and so and and so when when combined

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the awesome emulation by Rosetta, it was almost penalty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco free to emulate stuff on Intel that was made for PowerPC. If we went to ARM

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though, we wouldn’t have that kind of headroom in all likelihood. We would probably be taking a step

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down in CPU performance at that point. And so it would be really inconvenient to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have an architecture change that did not come with a giant performance boost also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you’d have to emulate this stuff to some degree if you wanted to run it and it would it would not be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well if you wanted the big boost like the reason Apple got the big boost for getting x86 is

⏹️ ▶️ John two things. One, their past CPU vendor stopped making them good CPUs so

⏹️ ▶️ John like they were stuck with the GeForce and the PowerBooks because IBM wouldn’t make anything better

⏹️ ▶️ John to go in there and even on the G5 IBM’s you know what well Steve said

⏹️ ▶️ John they were gonna give us three gigahertz in a year or whatever whether IBM said that or not they sure as hell didn’t and we were stuck

⏹️ ▶️ John with the G5 for way too long and it was an improvement. So you have to have the CPU you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John on stagnate and doesn’t seem like that’s gonna happen if we stay on x86. Will there be a period when

⏹️ ▶️ John x86 stagnates? It doesn’t seem like that’s anywhere in near future. And the second thing is that not only did the CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple was on stagnate, the CPU they moved to got out of a rut because the CPU they were gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John move to was like in the NetBurst architecture that was crap and Apple was sold on x86 by

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel showing them, look, here’s the core architecture, and trust us, it’s going to be awesome. And lo and behold, the core

⏹️ ▶️ John architecture was awesome. So that’s a combination of two factors that almost certainly is not going to exist again,

⏹️ ▶️ John where the CPU Apple is using stagnates and gets crappy, and the CPU they’re going to jump to makes a huge

⏹️ ▶️ John leap over where it was. Because it’s not like Apple switched from the awesome, newly introduced

⏹️ ▶️ John PowerPC G5 to the Pentium 4. Like, that would not have given them a giant

⏹️ ▶️ John boost in performance. The G5 was reasonably competitive with its contemporaries, but

⏹️ ▶️ John when they did make the switch, you’re right, they were able to hide the Rosetta thing underneath the carpet of

⏹️ ▶️ John this two-sided advantage to make it so that they could do PowerPC software emulated

⏹️ ▶️ John at a reasonable speed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So let me ask you both, and I have a feeling that this is a, you two are a poor audience for this question,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but would you trade a somewhat significant

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hit in performance, especially when virtualized. Let’s assume that non virtualized performance is roughly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on par, but virtualized performance is crummy. Would you trade that in favor

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of dramatically improved battery life? And I’m making this up, but you know, ARM tends

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be a little bit more power frugal. So let’s say that a Phantom

⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook Air that runs on ARM has twice the battery life of whatever the modern

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Intel MacBook Air’s battery life

⏹️ ▶️ John is. So 30 hours instead of 15? Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, seriously. I mean, let’s just suppose as a fun thought experiment, would you trade? Would you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey make that trade even if Windows virtualization or any and well anything, you know, x86 virtualization

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is crummy I mean, let’s start with you John.

⏹️ ▶️ John I Don’t think that That’s a that’s a hypothetical scenario that would never come to pass because I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t believe that Arm can equal the performance of Intel and offer double the power efficiency

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s fair

⏹️ ▶️ John and even even if arm was fabbed by Intel. I don’t think you’d do that It’s not as if Intel has a easy

⏹️ ▶️ John doubling of, you know, it’s like x86 is worth, it’s killing your performance. So

⏹️ ▶️ John you get twice the performance, the overhead of x86, as crummy as it is, is not, you know, a 50% reduction.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t think that would ever happen. And I also think that Intel is already good

⏹️ ▶️ John enough that like, once you get your battery life into the long enough to last for the entire waking

⏹️ ▶️ John time of a human 15 hour battery life on a MacBook Air, granted they’re not retina yet, and it’s going to take a hit when they

⏹️ ▶️ John grow right But I think Intel is already in the ballpark, so I don’t think they can that that

⏹️ ▶️ John will ever be offered And if they did offer it I personally wouldn’t take it because I would my calculus would be

⏹️ ▶️ John Battery life is already all day long enough, and it’s only gonna get better by small increments. I

⏹️ ▶️ John Give me the speed please you know what I’m like speed I want the fastest thing so I would not personally

⏹️ ▶️ John take that and I also don’t think they could ever offer that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that’s fair. What about you Marco?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well first I think it’s hilarious that you’re asking this to two people who not only want speed but hardly ever use laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s exactly why I knew this audience was not the right audience, but nevertheless, indulge me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. So, I mean, for me, I mostly agree with John. I think,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I wouldn’t be that excited about such a product because I’m not currently having battery life laptop issues.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The modern laptops, especially if I’m going to go buy a new one, the new ones have even better battery life than the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones I’ve had before. And so, you know, even the new Intel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ones are really just awesome and they’re just only going to get better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as we go through more process shrinks and more circuit shut off technology steps and stuff like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. It’s only going to get better. So it’s not really a problem that I have.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Already I have an awesome laptop that’s two years old or a year and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a half old that is awesome and has great battery life and it’s never a problem for me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I never have not enough battery life on my laptop for what I need when I am using it full time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s not really for me. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you can maybe judge the market for such a thing by how many people are walking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco around all day with dead MacBook Air batteries, basically. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook Air, especially the 11-inch, where there’s not nearly enough room in there for a big battery. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think if you’re walking around with an 11-inch MacBook Air and your battery is always at 5% and dying, and you’ve got to stop using your computer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to plug it in for a while, then you’re the market for this sort of thing, because you actually really need that. You’re pushing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the boundaries. But as the boundary keeps getting expanded to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have 6-hour battery life, 8-hour battery life, 12-hour battery life, we keep pushing this forward

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by pretty impressive margins over the last few years. So I think the need for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco making a dramatic battery life improvement a laptop is shrinking. Certainly you can imagine some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uses for it, but I don’t think it’s a mass market use anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, for the 11-inch Air, I think if you had Broadwell and a low temperature polysilicon

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever that is, the more energy efficient LCD, Broadwell plus a better LCD would give

⏹️ ▶️ John you acceptable battery life. You’d be up to the point where I don’t think many

⏹️ ▶️ John people will be walking around with a dead battery in their 11-inch Air anymore. And that’s like next generation

⏹️ ▶️ John a year or two from now. not like way over the horizon. So the window for when arm

⏹️ ▶️ John would make any sort of sense for battery purposes seems to be closing. But so we should ask you, Casey, you’re the laptop guy.

⏹️ ▶️ John What would you make the trade you just offered?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It depends on whether or not I’m still using windows almost exclusively for my job.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if not, I probably would, assuming that the performance penalty was not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey egregious, which is funny, because to be honest, I accepting going to and from work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I, for the most part, treat my laptops like desktops. Well, my personal MacBook Pro, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey unusable because it has a platter hard drive, is effectively a desktop. My work MacBook Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I said, other than moving it to and from home, I generally speaking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just treat it as a desktop. And so it’s kind of hypocritical of me to say that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yes, I’d love tremendously more battery life, but also consider that this is a a pre-Retina 2011 MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro. So I only get three, maybe four hours tops

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of battery life as it is. And it has dual GPUs. So anytime I have VMware Fusion running,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that absolutely toasts my battery. So I’m coming from a place of soreness, if that makes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sense. But I would make that trade if I didn’t need to worry about virtualization

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the performance penalty was not absolutely egregious. I would love to have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey laptop with wear and I didn’t need to worry about the battery ever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John And

⏹️ ▶️ John actually- You just need to buy a new laptop and you’ll have that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The current, especially like the Retinas have insane battery life.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know they do. And we’re issuing those at work now, but we’re on a three year cycle, I think. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on year one and a half,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so. Oh, who cares? You’re famous. You can get one faster than that. You are Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Liss. Uh-huh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve heard that our work is on an 18 month cycle and my Mac on my desk

⏹️ ▶️ John is like five years old.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Can you maybe trade that credit for Casey?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m saving that credit to trade up to a fancy iMac when the time comes,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I’m not ready to give it up yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but it’s funny because I upgraded my iPad situation from a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey third gen Retina full-size iPad to a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Retina iPad mini. And I don’t know if I, I wouldn’t say I have a lemon, but I don’t know if it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my particular iPad mini, but I feel like the battery life is not nearly as good as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Retina iPad, and certainly not as good as my original

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPad. And I find that to be really frustrating.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this is the world’s biggest first person problem, or first world problem, first person problem,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey first world problem. But I don’t know, I feel like I’m charging my iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot more these days. And it kind of puts this fear in me. It’s the same reason

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t put the battery percentage on my phone, because I know if I see it drop 2%, I’m going to start stressing about it. Come to think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of it, I should turn it off on my iPad. But nevertheless, I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m getting to the same point with my iPad as I do with my computer, where if I’m without an outlet for more than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple hours, I start freaking out. And I bring this up because even what is probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a very small difference in battery life in this new iPad has created an unreasonable amount of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stress in my world, which probably says a lot about me as a person, but having a lot more battery

⏹️ ▶️ Casey life in my laptop, it would be really tremendous. And I think you guys are completely right that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey perhaps just a brand new laptop today would be enough. But I don’t know, the thought of an ARM laptop that would run for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two days straight, that’s enticing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because also, the massive gain that we had with Haswell in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the last cycle, that was not part of a die shrink. So when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they do a process shrink with Broadwell this coming fall or whenever that’s supposed to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happen, it keeps getting delayed, but probably late this year, there’s going to be the Broadwell shrink. That’s going to be even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better. I mean, that might add another hour. If you have a 13, 14-hour

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery, do you think that would relieve your stress? And this isn’t like the BS battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specs that we used to hear back in the day. All the tests back this up and real-world usage back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us up, like, you know, if they say you’ll get 12 hours, you know, under regular usage,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you probably at least get 10. Yeah. Like, it’s pretty good. It’s pretty close to what they say, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, do you think, like, how far do you think it would need to go for you to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have that stress relieved? Or will you always have that stress because you grew up with very scarce battery,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a laptop battery depression?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, you’re absolutely right. And I think to some degree I will always have that stress. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, and this is going to take all the wind out of my own sails, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if I had complete confidence that under whatever you define

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as regular use, whatever I define as regular use, I could go an entire workday, like an eight to 10

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hour workday, without even thinking about whether or not I need to plug in, that would be enough

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to make me happy. And the way it is right now, I absolutely cannot do that. Even without

⏹️ ▶️ Casey VMware Fusion running and kicking on the discrete CPU, I would probably only be able to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get half a day-ish. And so to be able to go a whole entire workday

⏹️ ▶️ Casey without even blinking an eye, and if I leave my power adapter at home, oh well. That would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be very liberating.

⏹️ ▶️ John You should wait for Broadwell then, because even with the current crop, you could make it through most

⏹️ ▶️ John of a work day if you’re nice to VMware, but if you include 12 hours, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to make it working hard. It’ll come close and you’ll have much less stress than if you just plug

⏹️ ▶️ John it in when you’re back at your desk, but you’ll have to wait for Broadwell to get you into that type of thing where you can

⏹️ ▶️ John not have a charger at work, not bring your charger from home and still be comfortable that you can do your work without worrying about, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John am I hammering on VMware too much?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Have you considered solving this problem by spending 80 bucks on a second power adapter and just leaving it at work?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I do. I do. I absolutely do. I have one power adapter at my desk at home and one at work.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And the real cure to happiness, or the real secret to happiness is having an additional one in my laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bag, so I never have to move the one at work or the one at home. But I don’t transport the power

⏹️ ▶️ Casey adapter to and from work, but nevertheless, I don’t know, I wish

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t have to even think about it. And to go back just one quick second, a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of people in the chat are saying, Well, the reason your iPad rear retina iPads battery life sucks is because you’re using it more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that very well could be but I Feel like the battery drops the battery percentage drops

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quicker than I remember it having done in in other iPads

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John They

⏹️ ▶️ John should have made them retina mini thicker thicker

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey They did

⏹️ ▶️ John make it thicker by some tiny amount I forget how much but it’s like imperceptibly thicker But the iPad 3

⏹️ ▶️ John was perceptibly thicker than the iPad 2 and so when the mini went retina in order to get the similar

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, to keep to maintain battery life, they probably should have made the Mini larger

⏹️ ▶️ John than it currently is to fit more battery in. And then I think you would have been a little bit happier with it. I

⏹️ ▶️ John would also check, you also got it the same, around the same time as iOS 7 and background apps. So I would check if there’s some

⏹️ ▶️ John background app doing something stupid that you’re not aware of and also turn off Bluetooth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Bluetooth is off, I will say that. But you could be right about background apps. I don’t think off the top of my head, I don’t think there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are any that are on there that would be running other than, you know, iOS just kicking on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps in general. What I mean is it’s not like pod wranglers sitting there downloading podcasts constantly or anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like that. But nevertheless, you very well could be right. All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That went to a place I did not expect. But that’s okay. It was accidental.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So really quick, I have to confess that the first time I actually used Squarespace myself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey personally was a week or two ago when I was fiddling with a side project that may or may not ever come to be.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it really is that darn good. It really truly is. And we’ve been using it. And by we, I mean Marco has been using

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it since neutral. But it is so easy to do everything. And I won’t extend this ad read

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for another 20 minutes, even though I could, extolling all the great things about Squarespace. But even if you know what you’re If

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you don’t want to, Squarespace is the right answer. If you don’t know what you’re doing, Squarespace is the right answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, thanks to them. I was asking a minute ago, did you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get me anything gold today?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Alright. I ask because this is our 50th episode, is it not?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now wait, which anniversary gift calendar is gold on 50? Because aren’t there like three competing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gift calendars for that sort of thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, and I’m looking at hallmarks and it says gold is the 50th anniversary.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can get you some gold schlager.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would be happy with that actually.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you have a gold hypercritical t-shirt?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I do have a hypercritical t-shirt, but it is blue.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that was my gift for you. I

⏹️ ▶️ John put up for sale a gold t-shirt that you did not buy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ah, thanks, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Your gift was the opportunity to buy a special shirt.

⏹️ ▶️ John You would think it’s a gift for the number of people email me and say those shirts still available answer is no

⏹️ ▶️ John Missed out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking of hypercritical. You wrote a post about the 30th anniversary of the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’ve had I should have put that in my calendar I knew it was coming up like three or four days ahead time like oh I should write

⏹️ ▶️ John something about that and I tried to write something But when I when I started writing it it end up being exactly the same thing as what

⏹️ ▶️ John I wrote when Steve Jobs died because I I guess the two things are linked in my life, Steve

⏹️ ▶️ John Jobs and the Mac, much more so than I think most people who came to Apple stuff later.

⏹️ ▶️ John So yeah, we’ll put the link in the show notes, it’s not that exciting. But the reason I put it in there was because

⏹️ ▶️ John Macworld was doing a podcast where they were collecting short, like five minute remembrances

⏹️ ▶️ John from people who use the Mac. But it wasn’t like a live podcast with other people, they wanted us to pre-record

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, and I’m terrible at pre-recording things, And that’s all I had to bail on. I couldn’t do it. But I did think of something I

⏹️ ▶️ John wanted to say about the original Mac. And after hearing Marco profess his Mac newbiness on the

⏹️ ▶️ John talk show, I figured.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was the most epic troll to you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No one else will care.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, there’s lots of people. Lots of people will care.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Actually, a friend of the show, Guy English, was not happy.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and he’s like your age. I don’t know. Maybe he isn’t. No one knows how old he really is. It’s a very difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John tale to Canadians. It’s the beard. You just can’t see past it. What is

⏹️ ▶️ John he hiding? Anyway, so here’s my brief little remembrance thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John I was going to do for Macworld, but didn’t about the original Mac. And I think it will be good for young people and noobs as

⏹️ ▶️ John well. And the thing I was going to say that I remembered about the Mac, I had the original Mac in 1984, was

⏹️ ▶️ John what it was like to walk up to the computer and turn it on, which sounds weird, but

⏹️ ▶️ John hear me out. I think it has some foundation. Or not, we’ll find out. So the power button on

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac was on the back, and you used your left hand to reach the back of the computer and

⏹️ ▶️ John flick it and it was a rocker switch that tilted up and down and the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John itself was very upright I don’t know if people must know what the original Mac looked like it was kind of like a vertical rectangle in front of you

⏹️ ▶️ John with a little square screen near the top so you’d reach around the back left side and flick the

⏹️ ▶️ John switch and it was a big mechanical flicky switch like you would see on a

⏹️ ▶️ John 70’s mixing board or something this was not some tiny little button or a circle with a little power symbol

⏹️ ▶️ John on it symbol on it that depresses three millimeters in this was a big switch that made a noise you flick that switch

⏹️ ▶️ John the CRT came on and the thing made a beeping noise I have to start up beep pretty loud not like

⏹️ ▶️ John cool chord music but a beeping noise and the reason this motion of walking up to this vertical

⏹️ ▶️ John computer reaching around behind and flicking the switch and sitting down in the chair at the same time

⏹️ ▶️ John sticks in my mind is because you did it so often you didn’t put the computer to sleep there was no sleep

⏹️ ▶️ John for the computer you didn’t leave it on all the time because that would be crazy it would be like leaving your TV on all the time or a light

⏹️ ▶️ John on all the time. When you wanted to use the computer, you walked up to it, you turned it on, and you used

⏹️ ▶️ John it. And it would boot up, and it would take forever to boot up off the floppy disk. And you know, you do whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to do with the computer. And the second reason that power switch sticks in my mind was because

⏹️ ▶️ John when you’re done using the computer, you reach around the back of it, and you turn the power switch off.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right in the middle of what you, you know, there’s no, there was no shutdown command at the bottom of of what was then the special menu.

⏹️ ▶️ John No shutdown, no nothing. When you were done using the computer, you turned it off. And we like to think that

⏹️ ▶️ John the computers we’re using today are just like fancy versions of the Mac that was back then. Like, oh, they got a GUI, they got

⏹️ ▶️ John the menu bar. Some of the menus are even the same, you know, file, edit. You know, the special menu’s gone. But like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple menu is in the corner. They had windows with widgets in them and resizing and scrolls, like the same thing, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But the incredible distance between that and now is represented by like how we treated

⏹️ ▶️ John the computer. Retreated like you treat the television set when you want to use you turn on when you want to use it you turn it off

⏹️ ▶️ John There was no software interconnect Preventing you from or telling you when it was safe

⏹️ ▶️ John to turn it off preventing you from turning it off at any time now you can Turn it off Mac anytime you want now I got hold on the power button for 10

⏹️ ▶️ John seconds like if it gets hard frozen or whatever But clearly that power button is not a mechanical interconnect

⏹️ ▶️ John that you know The computer had no control like when you flick that switch electricity stopped flowing to the computer That was

⏹️ ▶️ John it and when you turn it on, you know electricity started flowing And so that is my one of my lasting

⏹️ ▶️ John memories of the computer that I think most people who are not around back then using computers Can’t relate to because maybe they’re like, oh I turned

⏹️ ▶️ John on my Commodore 64 that way. That’s how I use my Atari That’s how I use my NES and I think a lot of people like

⏹️ ▶️ John to think that’s how they’re using their current PlayStation stuff Not knowing those buttons are software buttons that just tell

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing to shut down because you can’t turn off You know a real game console like that without consequences

⏹️ ▶️ John most of the time But back then it was just it was a GUI computer that looks like what we have today

⏹️ ▶️ John day, but it behaved like a toaster. You’d flick the switch on, you flick the switch off.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That I did not know that. And that seems really wild to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, and also there were no lights, no indicator lights telling you the drive activity. You know, because PCs that used to

⏹️ ▶️ John for a long time, PCs were still like that. And you’re like, how do I know when I can push the eject button to get the discount? Oh, wait for the light to stop

⏹️ ▶️ John blinking. Is it done? Wait, no one more blink. Wait, no. Okay, now it’s been not one more blink. Like it was crazy making as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John No light on the front of the Mac. So how did you know? Like, what if you were what if it was in the middle of writing data

⏹️ ▶️ John to a floppy disk and you turn it off. Well, you probably just hosed yourself if that was the case. But like, there was no

⏹️ ▶️ John light, I guess, because they wouldn’t want to have some stupid blinking light. There was no eject button because they wanted the computer to control that. You still had

⏹️ ▶️ John to unmount a disk, you know, by dragging it to the trash or hitting eject or whatever. And it would safely eject and unmount the

⏹️ ▶️ John disk. But when you were done using the computer, presumably you would, you’re not in the middle of saving

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know, don’t have any outstanding stuff, you just reach behind and hit the switch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, that was the best thing about the original Mac is that that that wonderful unintuitive design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right from the start of, oh, to eject a disk, you do the same thing you do when you want to delete data.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, here’s the best thing about that. Well, so first of all, that was a shortcut. Like the way you were supposed to do it, the same

⏹️ ▶️ John way you would do anything, you select it and then select an item from the menu. It’s like you would select the noun

⏹️ ▶️ John and select the verb from the menu. So there was an eject thing, you could get a disk out. But the best was, since there

⏹️ ▶️ John was only one floppy drive, and you couldn’t get much done with 1400K floppy, you could eject the system

⏹️ ▶️ John disk that you booted from and it would remain on the desktop as a grayed out floppy disk icon

⏹️ ▶️ John and then you would put in say your Mac Paint disk, which application on a separate disk, put that in and then the Mac Paint

⏹️ ▶️ John floppy disk would appear on your desktop as a little floppy disk icon but not grayed out.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you could, you know, launch Mac Paint and sometimes it would ask you to swap this back and forth. Eventually you get to the point where the system

⏹️ ▶️ John disk is back in you’ve got a grayed out icon of the Mac paint floppy disk on there and the Mac paint floppy

⏹️ ▶️ John disk is in your hand right then you would drag the ghostly image of the Mac paint floppy disk to

⏹️ ▶️ John the trash and nothing would eject because you’ve already got the disk out the disk would just the ghost disk would just disappear

⏹️ ▶️ John it was a very strange metaphor for what am I throwing out here I’m not ejecting a disk it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John in my hand but I’m throwing out this little image and the image does disappear did I erase everything on the disk but how could I

⏹️ ▶️ John have erased everything I’m just gets in my hand but nothing ejected so I wasn’t injecting very very confusing

⏹️ ▶️ John of course it made totally intuitive sense to you know an eight-year-old nine-year-old me because like anything you learned

⏹️ ▶️ John of course that’s how the way it works you don’t you know how ghost images work for discus you know

⏹️ ▶️ John like things make sense to kids that you don’t question but it was very strange

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the end the terribleness of the the disk and virtual disk and ghost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco disk and disk image kind of metaphor continues to this day when you still have Mac software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being distributed in DMG’s

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah at least those don’t get grayed out but uh yeah you’re where is the disk? Is it what’s a disk image? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John what I’m saying is an image of a disk, not disk image, which is an entirely different thing. That’s what you’re talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about. But still, it’s like that whole thing with like, kind of complicating the disk metaphor. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s always one of the weirdest things about the Mac. And thank God they’ve mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dodged it now at the App Store, you know, by pushing people to do that as the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco installation method. But for decades, for years at least. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess OS X introduced disk images, right? So for a decade, the way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to install software on a Mac that you’d have to tell your parents was, all right, you download this disk image, it mounts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, it’s a virtual disk, it’s not a real disk, you have to look for where the disks are on your computer and find this fake disk that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just downloaded. Don’t run it from there, though. You gotta move it to your real disk, then eject the fake disk. Nothing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will actually eject from your computer. And then you gotta delete this file that represents that fake disk when it’s not mounted.

⏹️ ▶️ John Disk images existed before OS X, but before OS X, the way most software was distributed was in stuffit

⏹️ ▶️ John or stuffit.hqx, because stuffit files had resource forks for a short period of time, or

⏹️ ▶️ John any other compressed file format. And what you would get when you decompressed it is if you were lucky, you would get an application.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re unlucky, you would get an installer. And there was a series of bad installers doing their installer

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. But yeah, the root problem with disk images is not so

⏹️ ▶️ John much the concept of a virtual disk image, but the entire concept of mounting and unmounting disks, whether they’re virtual

⏹️ ▶️ John disks, real disks or not, mounting and unmounting is beyond the can of regular people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you say that, but it’s actually beyond a lot of people. So this past Friday,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was at a work meeting and it was all of the developers at my office, which is only 10 or 15

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of us, I’d say. And a developer that doesn’t typically use a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ended up using my boss’s Mac in order to do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a quick PowerPoint presentation. And that also involved using Safari or Chrome or whatever his browser of choice

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was in order to show a few things that he had worked on. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey firstly, he had a really hard time figuring out how to scroll because there was no scroll bar,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which in and of itself I thought was kind of funny, but made sense. I mean, I can’t fault him for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. Secondly, he fell under the same trap that Erin falls under anytime she tries to use my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac, which is for most power users, I have to assume that they have hot corners

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they have gestures set up. And if you’re not familiar and used to that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s very off-putting because you do you feel like you haven’t touched anything and then suddenly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey random crap happens that makes no sense. Well, anyways, the reason I bring this up is because he had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had his presentation on a USB key. And when he was all done, what did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he do? Do you want to take a guess, John?

⏹️ ▶️ John Is yanked out like the movies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just like they do with windows and just like they do in the movies and so he just yank that bad boy out of course instantly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my boss is mac goes wow. You didn’t you didn’t mount that bad boy i don’t even know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what’s going on with that thing and it was it was interesting to me because it all jokes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey aside here someone who writes code for a living. And he knows what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he’s doing, but because he’s not familiar with OS X, it didn’t even cross his mind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to unmount the USB key. Why would you? You just yank the thing out like you do on Windows,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? And so it was just interesting to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John But even on Windows, like, you have to do the blinking light dance, which is why so many USB keys have little lights on them, because

⏹️ ▶️ John you can yank it on a Windows, but if you yank it out in the middle, when the little light is blinking, your USB key

⏹️ ▶️ John now has garbage on it. So, congratulations.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which, by the way, when I first got my Mac, my first Mac in, I think it was 2010,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the things that I found extremely disconcerting was there were no hard drive lights

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or anything like that. And to this day, I still have iStat menus

⏹️ ▶️ Casey running constantly. And I don’t have it showing hard drive activity, but I do have it showing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey throughput through my network card and CPU load, because I just,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t, I don’t know why, but I feel…

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re one of those people who would have bought in the back of the day, there was a program for the Mac called disk light that would

⏹️ ▶️ John put a little blinking black and white thing in your little black and white menu bar to make people like you feel comfortable.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and again, it’s not actually about disk usage, but it bothers me if something is happening

⏹️ ▶️ Casey slowly, which to be fair on my work MacBook Pro with its SSD is not terribly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey often. But if something’s happening slowly, or if my jet plane, I mean, my fans are spinning,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to know why. And so I run iStat menus, which is absolutely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the best 30 or so dollars I’ve spent in a long time. I look at my little menu widget,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever that thing is called, and I see my CPU usage right there. And if I click on it, I can see the top five

⏹️ ▶️ Casey most expensive processes. And I don’t know, it just freaks me out not having that there. And I keep telling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey myself to get rid of it. And like, for example, I’ve gotten rid of- No, don’t. Well, and I’ve gotten rid of my memory meter,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I still have CPU and I still have internet through

⏹️ ▶️ John it. get rid of it because it’s kind of the quantum, whatever, uncertainty principle of

⏹️ ▶️ John computer performance, that by observing it, you are necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco altering the behavior. And I always

⏹️ ▶️ John wonder, how much am I altering it by observing it? I don’t leave Activity Monitor open. I don’t leave Top running in a terminal

⏹️ ▶️ John window. And I don’t run the iStat menu things, unless I’m curious. If I’m curious about something, it’s like turning on all the instruments

⏹️ ▶️ John or running instruments in Xcode. Sometimes you want to fire all that stuff up to C. But people who run it all day,

⏹️ ▶️ John every day, eh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not great. No, okay, well I’ll tell you what. Um, suppose you’re buying a new Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What CPU do you get?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, I mean, I’m talking about laptops. Who cares about desktops? You burn all the power you want. Fine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptops. Do you get a 13 inch with only a dual core, or do you go 15 inch with a quad core?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what I would get with a laptop. What are you getting at, that I would want a more powerful computer?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I’m saying, so I’ve been running iStat menus also forever. I ran,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there were some other thing did the same thing before that and it was worse. So I switched to iStat menus and probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know probably four or five years ago by now. And I’ve been running it for a while and just like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Casey I used to have the hard drive indicator on there. Once I switched to SSDs I removed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it because it was pointless at that point. But I still have the CPU and the network ones up. So the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco network ones first of all are very useful if you want to see like am I currently uploading tons of stuff while I’m podcasting that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad. Then you can go check. All right check Dropbox, check Backblaze, you know all this stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then the CPU meter is great because it gives you an idea

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of how much CPU power you’re actually using with the work you do and where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re hitting bottlenecks and what kind of bottlenecks you’re hitting so that you can make intelligent decisions about what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to upgrade and then what to buy for your next computer.

⏹️ ▶️ John I still think that’s an activity you can do when you’re curious about that. When your computer is feeling slow, take a look

⏹️ ▶️ John at why it’s slow. When you’re interested in whether this application takes advantage of how many cores, fire

⏹️ ▶️ John it up. I don’t think you need to run it all day because you’re not looking at it all day. It’s mostly just in the corner animating,

⏹️ ▶️ John distracting your eye, and you’re not looking at it to gain information from it during that time. I glance at it a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot. Yep. That’s another reason you should get rid of it. It’s like the thing you always have to keep looking at. It’s like looking at

⏹️ ▶️ John the time on the clock on a wall. Gotta keep looking up, gotta keep looking up. Just take the clock away, concentrate on what you’re doing, and you’ll spend less time

⏹️ ▶️ John looking at the clock.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I think basically whenever I’m being made to wait for something at all on my computer,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually I will glance at that to see, like am I maxing out a CPU? You know, before it would be like am I maxing out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a disk? And you know, like that, it helps a lot to know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what your performance needs are, generally speaking. So I know now how much of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my stuff is going to benefit from having more cores, and how much of it isn’t, and how much of it is gonna benefit from having like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one super fast core, rather than, you know, more cores that are slower. Like I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a good idea of what I need because I’ve been running this for years, And because it’s always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco running, and so I can always just kind of glance up there. So I know how my stuff behaves and what my needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually are. Whereas if you don’t do this kind of thing, you’re kind of buying blind or your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computer’s slow and you might think, okay, I guess I’ll add some RAM or something. But you don’t really know, like is it slow because of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco X, Y, or Z? And you’re just kind of guessing.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how many conclusions you can get from just looking at that. When my computer is slow, I dive in, I go right

⏹️ ▶️ John either, I mostly go to the command line because I’m gonna run scusage fsusage to see who’s hitting

⏹️ ▶️ John the file systems, because for me and my non-SSD systems, that’s usually the big one. But I don’t wanna just know, oh, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of IO going on. How many IOPS are there in Activity Monitor? What is the data throughput? I wanna know

⏹️ ▶️ John who is using the file system and what are they doing with it? What files are they modifying? So that’s why I want the

⏹️ ▶️ John FSC usage with the wide output for the file system type to get that information. You’re not gonna get that from

⏹️ ▶️ John iStatMenu. I think you do, actually. I think the main reason both of you are running iStatMenu is probably the only

⏹️ ▶️ John reason you should run iStatMenu is because you like blinking lights and pretty things. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a reasonably legitimate reason. A lot of people run, for example, transparent terminal windows,

⏹️ ▶️ John which make things in their terminal windows harder to read. But they like it because it looks cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, I disagree. I really do think that I, everything Marco said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was shaking my head yes. In that, if there’s any delay on my computer, particularly my SSD

⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook Pro, I’m looking at that CPU meter to see what’s going on. And if there’s a spike that I don’t expect,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey then darn it, I’m going to click on that CPU meter to see what the top processes are. And if airmail

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or if crash plan is going berserk, then I need to investigate why that is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And additionally, that’s why to go back in the episode, that’s why I said I would probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey trade a less powerful Mac for a MacBook for one that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has a much better battery.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John If you

⏹️ ▶️ John want to get better battery life, why not just turn that off?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Actually, when Mavericks came out, I did crank back the update frequency from like one second to like five

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something like that. But anyway, the reason I’m so willing to make that trade is because I know generally speaking, my CPU

⏹️ ▶️ Casey usage really isn’t that much. Now when I have VMware running, okay, then it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey too awesome in that I’m using probably a third of my CPU all the time. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey excepting when VMware is running, most of the crap I do on my computer, I really don’t need a very powerful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey CPU for. So that’s why I think I would be willing to make that trade. And that’s why I think Marco is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on to something with it gives you some kind of passive feedback on where your bottlenecks are.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you’re burning power unnecessarily, like if you have a four core machine, and you got some runaway

⏹️ ▶️ Marco process burning 100% all the time, because it’s stuck on something, you might not really you might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not notice that for days, because it’s not really affecting you at all. And all that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time, then your battery life is getting worse, your system is running a a little bit too warm or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the fans are running a little bit too fast. If it’s a process that’s running log files,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I have this weird problem a lot of times, I don’t know if it’s because of the hijacking setup with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this live stream. I had this problem recently where iTunes agent, some kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of iTunes airport agent crashes repeatedly in the background and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it burns up a CPU for a while and as it’s doing this, dumping tons

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of crap to the console log, like hundreds of megabytes of text to the console log. And the only way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can really tell is either by looking up there and seeing, oh, there’s that core that’s been running for a while. I wonder what it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing and clicking the icon and it shows me what it’s doing. Or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my terminal window start taking forever to reach the login prompt. And then you have to like go purge out the directory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and find the Mac hint that does that. Like if you don’t see,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you can’t see those kind of indicators, like if I didn’t launch terminal for a while, that would take days and I,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I wouldn’t notice it. And I’d be sitting here burning power and running too hot and filling up my disk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with all this crap and not even noticing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the difference between you, you and I, Marco and John, is that we are not one with our machine. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he can feel the menu meters. That’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco called.

⏹️ ▶️ John Menu meters. If you don’t notice that something is, is taking an entire core and you don’t notice that something is dumping

⏹️ ▶️ John a hundred megs to your thing, then it’s probably actually not a problem. I know it’s a problem and that you

⏹️ ▶️ John shouldn’t be doing that, but I’m mostly content to wait until my machine

⏹️ ▶️ John is not performing the way I think it is and investigate why that is. Versus if something like that happened

⏹️ ▶️ John and it cured itself or I just never noticed it, again, I’m not using a laptop. I’m plugged in. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John notice the fans going up. I don’t notice maybe I’m using slightly more power or whatever. But I think

⏹️ ▶️ John for me, if something was dumping 100 megs, I would notice that. And I would go and investigate it like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t have an SSD yet. No, that’s right. I would definitely notice it. I would hear the hard drive going

⏹️ ▶️ John tick, tick, tick. But there are many things that go off and you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t notice. And I’m perfectly content to let them be below my notice. If the only reason I would

⏹️ ▶️ John notice them is because of some kind of stat counter thing, then that’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John drawing my attention unnecessarily. Intellectually, yes, I would like to know that thing is crashing

⏹️ ▶️ John and see Investigated to do something about it, but practically speaking if I would not notice

⏹️ ▶️ John if it was if it was not for the stat stuff I just assume not notice it you know I mean

⏹️ ▶️ John because you don’t run a laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s very true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah began with a laptop I would say just at least at least just like Decrease the upgrade frequency

⏹️ ▶️ John like every one second is too much And I really hope that people who make I stat menus get religion about the the Mavericks

⏹️ ▶️ John Power saving stuff because if you’re gonna make an app that’s like that There are probably a lot of things you can do to your

⏹️ ▶️ John app itself to make it more power efficient Even if even with the same update frequency, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and usually is it Django? It’s BJ and geo I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m probably mispronouncing it I’m sorry, but they’re usually pretty pretty on the ball with with getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the latest I don’t want I don’t want to say trends that sounds dismissive but but getting those newest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey features supported

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, they’re pretty good citizens on the platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s that’s a much better way of phrasing it Hey, do we have any other new sponsors this week by chance?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have one more new sponsor this week. It is our friends at Cards Against Humanity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait, wait. What?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Cards Against Humanity. That awesome game that you and I have played, and it’s fantastic.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s sponsored by Cards Against Humanity, but they asked us not to read an ad and to just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoy the show. That was it?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s it. That’s the whole thing? Isn’t that great? surprised by this but that’s ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They, oh those guys are the best. Anyway, they didn’t ask us to tell you but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they’re just awesome. So thanks a lot to Cards Against Humanity.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That was our big moment. I’ve been so excited for them to maybe possibly one day sponsor our show and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what they decide to do. I’m both like a little sad and overwhelmed with happiness.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s pretty awesome. Well thanks guys. Yeah. We should play that. We We should

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do that on air sometime.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, well, we might lose our clean rating if we do. We just might.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I feel like we’re dishonoring the motive there, so we should just move on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, let’s get back to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Lenovo bought some things recently. Do we care about that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do we have time to care about that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know. Do we? Are we done?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Is that a hint?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Only our show could spend the first, you know, almost hour and a half

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today of all days with all this stuff in the news happened today and we haven’t talked about any of it. Not even a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit.

⏹️ ▶️ John But is it like, is it news? Is there anything that we really care about if you don’t care about like the game,

⏹️ ▶️ John the meta game of company versus company and who owns what and stuff like that? I don’t know if there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John much about the industry that any of these particular deals change other than continuing

⏹️ ▶️ John existing trends that everyone already is familiar with.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. It seems like Lenovo is basically just becoming IBM’s hardware. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know IBM still does big, big hardware, big server hardware. But, you know, they took the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey PC business and I don’t know, I’m very hipster about all this, but they killed the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ThinkPad and and now they’re taking the x86 server business and apparently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Motorola as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they’re in an economy that’s like up and coming in a way that the US economy is If not, like, they

⏹️ ▶️ John are us many, many years in the past. It kind of makes sense that businesses that are not interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John or profitable or profitable enough or have enough growth potential for us could have

⏹️ ▶️ John enough growth potential for them, be more profitable for them, more interesting for them. So they would like

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a phone, they would like to sell PCs, they’ll happily sell PC

⏹️ ▶️ John class server hardware. I mean, I don’t know how they, what is it, the low-end

⏹️ ▶️ John server hardware. just means x86 which is like basically like the server hardware that almost everybody buys.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not a bad business. I mean like I know you’re upset about them what they did to your beautiful ThinkPad but

⏹️ ▶️ John for the most part Lenovo took IBM’s PC business and didn’t screw

⏹️ ▶️ John it up. At the very least can you give them that they didn’t screw it up?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah they have a pretty good record of that of not screwing up the things they’ve bought too badly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean I think even most people who are ThinkPad fans

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would agree that the Lenovo transition really didn’t change much.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, compare it to Google buying Motorola. Well, they screwed up, but Motorola came pretty screwed up, so

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not fair. But a lot of times, you’ll acquire a company and you

⏹️ ▶️ John won’t be able to figure out how to make any money with it, and the products will be worse under you, and it will just fizzle.

⏹️ ▶️ John People might say that Lenovo’s products are worse in some ways than IBM or lost some of the specialness they had with IBM

⏹️ ▶️ John or aren’t as interesting as they were under IBM. But it’s still an ongoing business. And like

⏹️ ▶️ John that was my fear when they bought them because who had ever heard of Lenovo when they took you know, IBM’s

⏹️ ▶️ John PC business that like in two years, you won’t be able to buy a Lenovo PC because they’ll they’ll not

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to make a go of this, it’ll just be fizzle out and they just won’t be successful. But you can still buy Lenovo

⏹️ ▶️ John PCs and laptops and maybe they’re not as special as a ThinkPad with a butterfly keyboard, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re reasonable PCs. What would you rather have, a Lenovo laptop or a Dell? Lenovo or an

⏹️ ▶️ John HP laptop? Slim pickings there. Is none an option?

⏹️ ▶️ John Exactly. Right. Get a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Mac, please.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fun fact, my dad has worked for IBM for probably about 30-ish

⏹️ ▶️ Casey years, and I vividly, vividly remember seeing ThinkPads

⏹️ ▶️ Casey floating around the house when I was really little. Because the ThinkPad, in case you didn’t know, is named after

⏹️ ▶️ Casey these pads that they used to hand out to the employees that just said the word Think on the front and that was it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I vividly remember seeing those all over the place. I grew up on ThinkPads

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I grew up using a track point pointing device. If you’ve never seen the XKCD about this, go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Google it and check it out. I still miss that. I genuinely do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple trackpads are are as good as they get or touchpads, whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re called. Uh, they’re as good as they’re as those sorts of things get. But I still miss and prefer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the track point. I don’t know. Um, maybe I’m the only one, which actually I meant to ask you guys, do either of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you guys use the magic trackpad?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, no. What are you crazy?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. That’s what I thought too. But a lot of people I know are starting to starting to get really excited about the trackpad.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m always suspicious of somebody when they tell me they prefer a trackpad to a mouse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I tend

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John to agree.

⏹️ ▶️ John Any kind of trackpad. I know people who use that. I know people who use trackpads at their desk

⏹️ ▶️ John with their desktop computer, and I also know people who prefer the centered trackpad underneath their

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard on their laptop to using a mouse on their desktop, and those people should be eyed with great suspicion.

⏹️ ▶️ John All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. So we don’t really care about them buying Motorola and Google unloading Motorola?

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s like a terrible, failed, I don’t know what. I mean, they

⏹️ ▶️ John got the patents, they’re keeping the patents. When they bought Motorola, the only interesting thing

⏹️ ▶️ John about that acquisition, like the A-Store is, OK, they’re just going to they’re bought Motorola for the patents,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, no, but I think they might be buying them because they’re going to make their own phones and Motorola makes hard.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so that turned out not to be the case. They, you know, admitted as much in their thing. We originally bought

⏹️ ▶️ John them for the like, I guess there was a chance that if Motorola’s new phones took off, Google would say, hey, wait

⏹️ ▶️ John a second. We can sell the OS to other people but then compete with them by making our own hardware that sells in huge

⏹️ ▶️ John numbers instead of Denexus which sell in smaller numbers I would imagine but turns out no one wants a Motorola

⏹️ ▶️ John phone either so It’s not it’s a shame because the most recent Motorola phones

⏹️ ▶️ John are pretty decent like they’re they’re interesting They’re nice-looking. They work pretty well for Android phones

⏹️ ▶️ John like they’re not they’re not terrible phones I’m sir Lenovo will continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to make them make not terrible phones out of them And who knows, they’re well positioned

⏹️ ▶️ John to do well in China. So if that business starts picking up, they’re going to be right there,

⏹️ ▶️ John ready to sell cheap Android phones to all of China.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think it has anything to do with a possible Google-Samsung future partnership

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of some sort? Like getting Motorola out of the way? Like Google couldn’t buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Samsung, they’re too big, as far as I know. But do you think that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, the news came out today also that Google has apparently pressured

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Samsung to stop doing their incredibly different interface on their tablets that they were working

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on, and possibly on their phones as well. I don’t know all the details of it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, clearly Google is kind of, you know, pressuring Samsung

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to work more closely with them. What if getting Motorola out of the way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides being financially wise, because they kept losing even more money on it every year that they kept

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, what if that kind of helped that too? I mean, I don’t know. It sounds like a stretch, but you never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know. Honestly, all of this makes me think that the way they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bought Motorola kind of out of the blue and then spent way too much on it, even back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then, everyone said that was way too much. Supposedly, it was maybe for patents,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the patents turned out to not really be worth anything.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think that the patents are worth something, not the crazy billion dollar numbers they’re giving there, but they’re definitely

⏹️ ▶️ John worth something. They’re not worth it in that you’re going to be able to sue everybody else for violating your patents. But I think

⏹️ ▶️ John having that big staple, it’s like it sows enough uncertainty in your in the people who

⏹️ ▶️ John are going to come at you with their stupid patents. They’re like, well, we have a lot of stupid patents, too. And you’re not sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John And maybe the few they’ve used have lost in court. But it’s a hell of a lot of patents. And they’re really stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think it serves its purchase as the mutually assured destruction, sort of black

⏹️ ▶️ John bag of crap. You know, they’re massively overpaid for that,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s better than not having it at all. And

⏹️ ▶️ John as for the pressuring, like Samsung saying, all right, if you want us to do more stock Android appearance,

⏹️ ▶️ John you need to get rid of that Motorola. I don’t think Samsung was threatened by Motorola selling the piddling number of crappy phones

⏹️ ▶️ John that they were selling. I don’t think Samsung was in a position to bargain like that, or at least they shouldn’t have been. If Google,

⏹️ ▶️ John if they made that threat and Google believed it and acted based on that

⏹️ ▶️ John threat being an actual thing they should be scared of, that was stupid because that’s an insane threat. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John the threat would be basically, we’ll do your default Android appearance thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you have to do this thing for us. And Google will say, why do we have to do that thing for you? Well, if you don’t, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to make our phones use the stock Google appearance And we don’t need your stinking maps,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we don’t need your stinking Gmail. We’ll do everything ourselves.” And Google should have said, okay, good luck with that. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think Samsung is in a position, I mean, how Apple was barely in a position to not use Google

⏹️ ▶️ John Maps. I’m not sure Samsung is in a position to do away with all the things that Google gives

⏹️ ▶️ John them. They’re an Android vendor, for crying out loud. It’s hard. They could do like the Kindle route, where

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon’s like, we don’t really need anything from you, Google, except for your OS, thanks. I don’t think that’s a viable strategy

⏹️ ▶️ John for Samsung. It’s possible that Samsung is deluded enough that they think that’s a viable strategy

⏹️ ▶️ John for them that they don’t need. We don’t need you Google any second. We could go off on our own and we’ll be just as successful without you.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that strategy would work for like a year and then Samsung would realize they’re not Google. Uh, so

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure, but I hope Google didn’t give any credence to that. Uh, but I think getting rid of Motorola is the right

⏹️ ▶️ John move because if you’re not going to use Motorola as your hardware wing and become like an Apple style, like we make the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John and the software, if you’re not going to do that, what the hell point is there in having a phone maker? All it’s going to do is make your relationships with

⏹️ ▶️ John all the people you license your OS to more fraught with angst than it needs to be.

⏹️ ▶️ John And yeah, you paid $12.5 billion for it, but cut your losses.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So who has the real leverage between Samsung and Google? Do you still think it’s Google? And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ask because it seems to me like most of the phones that I see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are Android phones – and I won’t even wager guesses to the percentage – but it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seems like well over half are Samsung phones. So is Google getting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the point that they’re getting beholden to Samsung? I mean, what you just said made me think no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but do you think so?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, because like Samsung is making all the money in the Android market and Google hates that. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re not beholden to Google. They just want Samsung. They just want to, A, Google needs to figure out a way to make money

⏹️ ▶️ John from Android. And B, the power of Samsung is making that more difficult. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John making the money. And so that’s Google leaning on them to say say you have to have a more of a default Android experience is them

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to say, what we want is an undifferentiated sea of people shipping on our

⏹️ ▶️ John OS on commodity hardware. They want to go back in time and pretend like they’re Microsoft and selling Windows to every PC

⏹️ ▶️ John vendor. And Samsung doesn’t want to be every PC vendor. They want to differentiate. But it’s not as if

⏹️ ▶️ John Samsung, like if Google’s already not making most of the money in the Android ecosystem, what is Samsung

⏹️ ▶️ John taking away? Samsung’s already reaping all the profits from Android, right? They’ve already done that to Google.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t see how Samsung has any leverage over Google say well We’ll just change everything to Windows

⏹️ ▶️ John phone and stop using Android’s like fine We weren’t making any money off you using Android anyway, so it’s sure

⏹️ ▶️ John their their relationship is not they’re not two happy campers next to each other and

⏹️ ▶️ John I Don’t know what you know Google at least has a stopgap of like well this whole Android thing was silly We’re

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna switch to Chrome OS for everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think it’s even… you can look at the relationship between

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple and Samsung, not with the lawsuits and stuff, but just with the hardware manufacturing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deals that they have, where Apple still needs Samsung

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for so much of their component manufacturing, especially the more complicated processors and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It doesn’t look like they’re going to stop needing Samsung in the next few years. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ll slowly work towards that by bringing up different fabs and stuff, but they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to keep using Samsung as a manufacturing partner for a while, or a component partner

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while. So Samsung and Apple, you could tell they don’t really like each other,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but they keep working together because Samsung will take the money because it’s a lot of money,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Apple needs their capacity and their chip manufacturing. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think similarly, Google and Samsung kind of need each other too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco By having Android, Samsung is making a killing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Samsung, personality-wise, it’s pretty hard to get a read on them in much detail, but it does seem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like personality-wise, they’re not a stubborn, principled

⏹️ ▶️ Marco company. If there’s a way to make money doing something, they’re just going to do it. They don’t really care

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what it is. not going to hold a grudge against Google and say, oh well, you’re kicking us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco around so we’re going to stop using Android. No, they won’t. They might make their own additional line of phones with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something else on it, but they’re not going to stop selling Android phones. They don’t care. If they can make money selling Android phones, they’ll keep selling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Android phones and keep making a lot of money. And Google needs them because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you said, there’s not really a lot of other people making Android stuff that serves Google well. Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is selling a good amount of it, but that’s not really helping Google very much. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s other manufacturers, mostly regional ones, like in China and India, there’s manufacturers that also make a ton of Android

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff, but that doesn’t help Google very much because it doesn’t run a lot of their services or any of their services. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Samsung is probably the only company making a good amount of Google

⏹️ ▶️ Marco service connected Android things and actually selling them worldwide. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they kind of can’t afford to have animosity towards each other. I think you’re right. Google wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Android, I think they expected there to be all these manufacturers with a diverse ecosystem providing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco healthy competition. And in reality, everyone else has died because Samsung was really good at it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And everyone else was really bad at it. And so it totally is dysfunctional to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one giant manufacturer making the majority of your stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, and not just the number of manufacturers. They expected, well, we’re going to make the software part. And the margins

⏹️ ▶️ John on software are massive. So we’re going to make huge margins on the software we sell. And those poor suckers making

⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware are going to make tiny little hardware margins. Where, as it turns out, Samsung’s making the bulk

⏹️ ▶️ John of the profit in what you would define as the Android market, because they make way more profit on the phones they sell than

⏹️ ▶️ John Google makes on the licensing of the OS to Samsung. And so that’s the imbalance

⏹️ ▶️ John there. That all the money in the vast majority money in the Android ecosystem is being made by a hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John manufacturer. And Google’s got to be like, but doesn’t software have higher margins? How are we not making money? And, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John and so I think Google is trying to go back to his bread and butter and saying, it seems like no matter who’s out there,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if there were 15 hardware makers, the accumulated profit made by those 15 hardware makers that evenly divided the market

⏹️ ▶️ John would still dwarf the the the license fees that we get. It doesn’t seem like that we’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to make money, you know, because they get the magic of like subsidized phones in the US and getting

⏹️ ▶️ John all that money for giving you a subscriber for a long period of time. And the hardware itself has reasonable margins

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re not making enough money off the Android itself. So I think they want to go back to their old style,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is all right, we’re going to make money by people using Google services. And that’s why they switched to

⏹️ ▶️ John nevermind all the profit stuff. Let’s just make sure that the people who are selling Android phones continue to,

⏹️ ▶️ John they continue to be a gateway to get people into our Google services so we can show up the bar Google ads and get information about

⏹️ ▶️ John them in Google Plus and all the googly things we do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think we’re done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to our three sponsors this week, help spot square space and cards against humanity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we’ll see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over. They didn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean to begin because it was accidental. It was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, it was accidental. Accidental. John didn’t do

⏹️ ▶️ John any research. Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him. Cause it was accidental. Accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, it was accidental. Accidental. And you can find the show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. That’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A-R-M, Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A-C, USA

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse, it’s accidental, they

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t mean to, accidental, tech podcasts so long.

⏹️ ▶️ John I seem to recall maybe hearing about this somewhere on the internet. it might have been apocryphal, some people saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll get the email about it if you put it in the show, people who prefer to play first person shooters with a trackpad instead

⏹️ ▶️ John of a mouse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What? What? That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the same reaction I have to people who prefer to play first person shooters with a thumbstick instead of a mouse, but that’s a whole other thing. But I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty sure I’ve heard at least one person who preferred playing first person shooters with a trackpad. It’s just like people who grow up with trackpads,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t, there’s something wrong with them. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Kids these days with their input methods. Not

⏹️ ▶️ John like it would be fine if they if it was actually better like it was more if you could make if you make a like a challenge

⏹️ ▶️ John where there was like a series of dots on the screen and they would you know you ever see those challenges where a dot will appear in a random location

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to Click on it as soon as you click on another dot appears there are objective ways to measure how how

⏹️ ▶️ John efficient you are with your input device and Go ahead trackpad people bring them bring

⏹️ ▶️ John it on against a mouse person same thing with first-person shooters Auto aim has bred

⏹️ ▶️ John an entire generation of people who think that they’re better with a thumb stick than them with a mouse when in reality It’s the it’s the game

⏹️ ▶️ John drawing their fire to the enemy because they happen to be somewhere near there where they are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Parapsis swearing in the chat that he or she is much better with the trackpad which means he or she is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey crazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or using auto aiming not realizing it or not wanting to admit it

⏹️ ▶️ John But I was if you’re playing with it like a PC game. You know a Mac game It’s not it’s not all it doesn’t know you’re using a trackpad

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think it’s auto aiming because you’re using a trackpad and maybe just people don’t know how to use a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t know. Maybe it’s like great inflation, like you know you want to just like make everyone feel better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they did better even though they still suck and then like oh well don’t hey you you hit him we’ll call that a hit. Good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco job. Everyone’s a winner here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey One thing we should talk about at some point is what what will we reflect on in 20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or 30 years as being the clear sore spot in in computers

⏹️ ▶️ Casey today and in before spinning disks. I was going to say exactly that. So let’s let’s assume

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that we’ve already that spinning disks are already in the past and we can’t use that as an answer. What

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would it be? Because we are we all have, you know, gigs and gigs and gigs of RAM.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We generally speaking have big enough hard drives that you could make an argument that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the SSD is being considerably smaller because they’re they’re much too expensive. Otherwise, I would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey allow that as an answer. But if not those, then what? What’s the bottleneck?

⏹️ ▶️ John Non-retina screens? Are you going to also put that in the past?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I would allow that. I think that would be fair.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say having very short laptop battery lives. It depends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on what time we’re talking about. If we’re talking about this year, then maybe not. But even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just three years ago, in that era where almost everyone at that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point was buying laptops if they were a normal person, hardly anybody bought desktops even as of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco five years years ago. You know, so laptops really took over in the last decade so strongly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, but they weren’t very good. They were so I think having laptops being very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hot, and with short battery lives, and maybe big and heavy also, but that that fixed itself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco towards the end of the decade. I think that that might be it. Because remember,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like we’re talking about moving from desktops in the 90s to laptops in the 2000s.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re already fast forwarding us past SSDs and retina screens, which I think is kind of fair, because if you just start from the best

⏹️ ▶️ John of modern computers and say that’s the status quo going forward, like a baby is born and they never see a spinning disk or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not what they’re going to ding us for. So I think babies born today will probably ding us for phones

⏹️ ▶️ John that break when you drop them, if we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey lucky. Ooh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good call.

⏹️ ▶️ John Good call. Because that’s a tough call, because you’re not sure if there’s going to be material science breakthroughs that lead

⏹️ ▶️ John to that. But all of us now know that you drop your phone on cement, you’re like, maybe it’s going to

⏹️ ▶️ John break. Maybe it’ll just get dinged, but like, it’s weird.

⏹️ ▶️ John If there’s a material science breakthrough that allows that not to be something we have to worry about so much,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will look ridiculous that we had these things that were so fragile, that cost so much money that we carried around with us. And it’s like, oh, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you drop that on cement, it was over. And it’s like saying to someone today, if you drop your keys on cement when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John fumbling with them to get into your car, nevermind that it won’t need keys to get into cars in that way, because they’ll all be Marcos

⏹️ ▶️ John proximity key. But anyway, the idea that if you drop your keys on the ground,

⏹️ ▶️ John your keys are still fine, right? Well, our phones, if you drop them on the ground, they’re not fine anymore. And I feel like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John possible in our lifetime that it could be a material science breakthrough that makes that seem ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In the same way that there could be a battery breakthrough.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that also is worth pointing out, too, that in the same ways that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s kind of irrelevant to us what happens with mainframes these days, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our kids are not going to really care what computers were like in today’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco era. they’re going to be talking about what mobile phones were like in today’s era. And, and, uh, so from that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point of view, maybe battery life is the thing because battery life on, you know, battery life on laptops, as we said earlier, is, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting pretty, pretty solid to the point where most people don’t really run into issues,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, that often anymore with, with the newest models. And that’s probably going to keep going in that direction. Whereas with phones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like we’re kind of at this standstill where the industry is still so competitive with moving the hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forward, making everything more powerful, making the screens bigger and brighter and higher density and all the stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we’re kind of at battery stagnation where, and sometimes it even gets worse, where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know as everything gets more complicated and more advanced and more powerful and bigger,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re still getting like about a day of casual use and less than a day of heavy use.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And we’ve kind of been there for a while now. Hopefully by the time our kids, at least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my kid by the time he’s old enough to care, John your kids probably already care, but by the time my my kids old enough to care,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe having a multiple day battery life on a phone will be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the common case.

⏹️ ▶️ John Phone batteries are tough because you have to transmit. That’s the killer, I think,

⏹️ ▶️ John on phones. You can make the phone consume zero energy for its screen and CPU,

⏹️ ▶️ John but you have to transmit so that some tower… I guess if they come up with whatever successor

⏹️ ▶️ John to LTE is able to use even less power, but I worry that that’s the limiting factor.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like you are a physical distance, and you must send, unless we have quantum entanglement,

⏹️ ▶️ John where we can just convey information without transmitting radio waves.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but look at how cell phones have progressed over time. Over time, cell phone towers have gotten more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dense, so you have to transmit less distance. They have gotten more crowded and noisy as well. It’s a separate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco issue, but they’ve gotten closer to you most of the time. And we’ve switched to lower power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and faster protocols. Like the old analog phones had to use a ton of power to reach some tower that was 30

⏹️ ▶️ Marco miles away, because there weren’t a whole lot of them. These days, we have these nice, fast digital networks that are much, much lower power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the transmit side. And as the networks get faster, it’s like the race to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sleep thing on CPUs. You can keep the radio on for a shorter time, transmit more data, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be done and go back into sleep.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but what I’m thinking of it is that eventually it will become the limiting factor, because the

⏹️ ▶️ John other parts can progress at sort of the pace of technology, But the radio parts can only

⏹️ ▶️ John progress at the rate of infrastructure. Like how long does it take to build out new towers, to

⏹️ ▶️ John convert the networks, to do all that? That moves so much more slowly. And if current trends continue,

⏹️ ▶️ John that will become the dominant factor in power use. Whereas right now, it’s not the dominant factor. The dominant factor now is if you

⏹️ ▶️ John have some app that’s running in the background all the time, it will kill your phone before it gets a chance to waste all its energy on cell phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John talking to cell phone towers to get data. But I think by the time our kids grow up,

⏹️ ▶️ John that especially given the way infrastructure that’s the glacial pasted infrastructure

⏹️ ▶️ John changes over in the US that talking to the cell network will be the dominant

⏹️ ▶️ John power source if we’re lucky I guess I mean I guess I guess they could continue to do what you were just saying which is like well they

⏹️ ▶️ John never spend their energy on better battery life they always spend it on better features and cpu

⏹️ ▶️ John speed and stuff and just maintain parity in battery life and thinking about that that with my dumb phone

⏹️ ▶️ John I almost think that multi-day battery life is a little bit of a curse as well as a blessing

⏹️ ▶️ John because I forget to charge my phone because it lasts like six and a half days on a charge

⏹️ ▶️ John right yeah and if you have to charge your phone every day if you have 18 or 20 hour battery life you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John probably okay but once you get like 50 hour battery life now you forget to charge your phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah that’s true actually is it like that’s how I like how I was with Kindles when I used them more, E Ink Kindles,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like I would not charge my Kindle ever and most of the time it wasn’t a problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One day of every two months maybe I’d go to read and I couldn’t because it was dead so I’d plug it in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then I wouldn’t care for two more months.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah I mean that’s that’s the extreme case I think that is acceptable but with my phone my wife was always complaining because my

⏹️ ▶️ John phone’s not charging. Why is it not charged? Because there’s no I don’t need to charge it every day or every other day every three days

⏹️ ▶️ John like seriously like maybe once a week I need to charge it but I need to like, remember, you know, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John once a week, it’s like every five and a half days or something. So I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t know. It’s, it’s, it’s interesting to me trying to pick out what is the,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what is the obvious downfall of stuff today? And the other thing that we haven’t really mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I wonder is, will home broadband still be a thing? And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not sure because if you think about it, you know, as I’ve said numerous times on this show,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey LTE, even in reasonable speeds, is quicker than my broadband

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at home five years ago. Granted, five years is a long time, but LTE at burst

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ridiculously awesome speeds is almost as quick, if not in some rare cases,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as quick as my beloved Fios today. Granted, Marco, you have the super baller Fios,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but for us regular humans, it’s almost on par. If

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it wasn’t for bandwidth limits, then there’s an argument that maybe we wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need home internet. And I keep thinking back to AOL and back when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you would have a limited amount of minutes. Yeah, actually, you were talking about this on the talk show, when you had a limited amount of minutes and it was like $3,000 a minute

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be online. And then eventually everything became unlimited. Because even ISPs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had that, if memory serves. A lot of ISPs took that approach of it’s timed and you only get so much time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a month and so on. But eventually, it was a race to—I don’t know if the bottom is the right way of phrasing it, but it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was a race to unlimited. And I wonder if the cell phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey companies will eventually race to unlimited, kind of like what Sprint is supposedly doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I don’t know. I mean, there are places where that won’t work, of course, where you’re in the middle of nowhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But actually, I have some friends at work that do live in the middle of nowhere, and the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey quickest internet they can get is a Verizon MiFi, or perhaps just make their phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a hot hotspot because the only other option they have is DSL. So sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in some certain circumstances, being in the middle of nowhere, that makes broadband or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry, cellular internet, the best option.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that’s even in the even more distant future because anyone who writes a sci-fi book doesn’t involve

⏹️ ▶️ John like wires going to people’s houses. The sci-fi book like the super fast network that connects all the computers on the on

⏹️ ▶️ John the super advanced planet is always wireless, right? And I think the main thing that will

⏹️ ▶️ John make that happen for us is the inability of us to do infrastructure projects in this country in

⏹️ ▶️ John a reasonable amount of time. Because running wires to everybody’s house, it seems beyond the capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ John of any private company or government or the combination thereof, because it’s some big combination of eminent domain

⏹️ ▶️ John for the wires and the people owning the existing things and stuff like that. So given that incredible

⏹️ ▶️ John screwed-up-edness, it’s ripe for someone, for a wireless to get good enough and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John we don’t need to do that stuff. We don’t need to dig trenches and run wires and deal with the government and stuff. We just

⏹️ ▶️ John need to, I guess they still need to deal with the government for the spectrum, but assuming they can make use of the spectrum that’s already available, that they

⏹️ ▶️ John already have, that’s definitely ready for it to happen. And it seems more

⏹️ ▶️ John sci-fi like, but I think if it wasn’t for our complete inability to run wires to people’s houses

⏹️ ▶️ John in a reasonable fashion, that the wired would still maintain its hold

⏹️ ▶️ John because as fast as wireless is ever going to get, again, unless you go with some crazy quantum

⏹️ ▶️ John entanglement, you know, super advanced sci-fi thing. If you have the technology to do that,

⏹️ ▶️ John think of the technology you have for the wireless. And even though you can’t think of a use for a

⏹️ ▶️ John hundred times faster than LTE now or a thousand times faster, uh, if you had it, you,

⏹️ ▶️ John you would come up with the uses for it. Like it’s not going to be 8k television, but who knows? It’d be like holograms or

⏹️ ▶️ John neural imprint. You ever talk about far future or whatever. So, uh, you know, maybe I think it,

⏹️ ▶️ John Wireless is inevitable for us because of our inability to run wires But I think if

⏹️ ▶️ John if you know if everything was on an even keel And you could get the wires to people’s houses

⏹️ ▶️ John that would continue to be a thing just because it’s so much more capable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but wireless has has a pretty big problem where it has the ceiling at which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it it slams into limitations of spectrum and space and density

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where wires like wires can Run in a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very dense area in a very dense arrangement and doesn’t really affect them It doesn’t really matter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much You know they have some challenges at some of the big you know bottleneck piping points of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco backhaul But not you know not major problems and most of the time that can also be solved by just running more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wires whereas if you’re in like a dense city area and the radio spectrum is just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco jammed full and and it’s still not enough capacity and And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no more spectrum to be had that’s available in the area for for a while or or ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a problem like you hit this hard ceiling with wireless

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, but wireless is a wired system like in cities wireless is a wired system All you’re getting rid of

⏹️ ▶️ John is that Latin the last mile they call it but in an apartment building It’s that last 200 feet, you know, because you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re you’re a cell tower Could be connected by a fiber-optic cable to some backbone

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever It’s just that your house isn’t connected to the cell tower by any kind of cable you connect

⏹️ ▶️ John to the cell tower So, you know to me like especially in cities where your building would have some you know Some

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of cell tower in it, but your building would be wired to the backbone So it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just getting rid of the last mile But what it means is that you don’t have to have some wire to your house that you

⏹️ ▶️ John pay for that You’re paying for this amorphous service that exists everywhere in the air I think that’s what Casey’s getting at like when he says

⏹️ ▶️ John Broadband goes away. You mean right a thing I pay for that goes to my house Instead, you’re just

⏹️ ▶️ John going to pay for access to the air over the entire country and you’re not paying for that one wire

⏹️ ▶️ John dress, but the wires are all still going to be there. It’s just a question of how dense can you get the towers and stuff like that. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what Marco was saying about the limitations. Yeah, that’s why having a wire going to your house and not a wire, but like a fiber optic

⏹️ ▶️ John thing or whatever, it’s always going to win. Like it’s, you know, it’s better to not have to send signals through the air,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? You’ll have much more capacity there. Just the question is, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John is the difficulty of running those wires to people’s houses is going to make it so that wireless just comes

⏹️ ▶️ John in and disrupts them old-fashioned disruption. Like, while you guys are busy over there arguing about cable packages and fiber

⏹️ ▶️ John optic and last mile crap, we’re just going to offer this for everybody for free. They’re already paying for it. And we’re going to say, hey, it’s good enough

⏹️ ▶️ John to be your broadband, ditch everything, and we win.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I think it matters more in rural areas where you already have issues

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting high-speed cable and high-speed DSL, and certainly fiber is out of the question

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in rural areas where wireless covers them way more easily by area.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s gonna be, I think, a lot like having well water from the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco city pumped to you versus having to pump your own water or having natural gas pipelined to your house rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than having to use liquid propane. There’s gonna be like the city hookups,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the main infrastructure hookups are probably always going to be better if you can get them. But the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco advantage is that you don’t have to get them in a lot of places. And wireless has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco started covering rural areas much more slowly than cities, but it’s covering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them more slowly than you can get LTE in Manhattan, but a lot faster than you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get Fios in the rural areas. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although, I want to go back a step. John, you had made mention that there will be some new thing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like 4K TV or maybe even holograms that will necessitate a really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fat pipe coming into your house. But I don’t know. I mean I remember vividly trying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to download an MP3 from some weirdo FTP site that was surely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey installing a thousand viruses on my Windows PC. And I remember doing this over dial-up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and thinking to myself, I can tell, even as a teenager at the time, I can tell

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that this is not going to be as painful in the future. And then once it got to the point that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could download an MP3 with some modicum of a quickness, I would try to download

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a video and I could tell, you know what, this is going to get a lot better in the future.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think that, you know, maybe you’re right, that maybe there’ll be a hologram or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t. Well, no, I was saying that that’s silly. Like, we don’t, it’s not going to be like, you know, increasingly high

⏹️ ▶️ John resolution video. That’s a silly extrapolation of what we have now. But if you want to take something that we have

⏹️ ▶️ John now, that will get worse in the future, that will already needs more capacities. And we talk about at it all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s backups and not from a backup perspective, but just like we if you produce all this digital content

⏹️ ▶️ John in your life, those video you create the pictures you take, that’s only going to get bigger up to a point, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s the point where getting you’re taking 4k videos on your cell phone, it probably doesn’t need to be much better than that maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John twice as good or whatever. But over a lifetime, you will build up a lot of that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I still think it’s ridiculous to make people accept that that that stuff could go away at any time

⏹️ ▶️ John and you don’t really own it and it just disappears. So if there was some way to sort of like, again, I get back to the transporter

⏹️ ▶️ John ad, if, if there was sort of this series of little devices at home at work at all your friends

⏹️ ▶️ John house, and your data could be pushed among it so that when your house burned down, you know, you wouldn’t lose all your data, like

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the ultimate extension of the internet. But to do that, you need massive bandwidth between all these nodes.

⏹️ ▶️ John So like, how is it feasible to move a lifetime worth of information amongst these nodes in real time?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, can I move video as fast as I can grab it on my phone? Of Of course you can’t, but if you have these gigantic

⏹️ ▶️ John pipes going to and from your house, many interesting things are happening. That’s why I think like we don’t need 10,000 times

⏹️ ▶️ John the bandwidth we have, but if you go to someone, okay, picture that you have 10,000 times the bandwidth. Can you think

⏹️ ▶️ John of something you knew you can do with that? Those type of numbers like water magnitude increases,

⏹️ ▶️ John open up things to the realm of possibility that were not even a twinkle in anyone’s eye, but you’re like, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ John boom, you have it. Now what can you do? And like that’s, you know, downloading video over the internet

⏹️ ▶️ John to watch movies in high def. If you had proposed that to someone in 1962, they would have probably

⏹️ ▶️ John thought of that. They would have said, wow, if I have that kind of bandwidth, I can send moving pictures. And lo and behold, you can. And like,

⏹️ ▶️ John how did we get from point A to point B? It’s not like, well, you need to build this network because we can send movies. And it’s not like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John we need to send movies. You need to build this network. They kind of go hand in hand. But data backup and moving all your

⏹️ ▶️ John personal data amongst this big cloud, that would require massive bandwidth.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with. We’ll have to

⏹️ ▶️ John rethink cities.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That to me is the best

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John example.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and if we all had segues, that would be… Right? I got that, I got that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that makes the most sense. The backups makes the most sense because that’s something that you’re right. I can tell today

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that that’s too slow and it shouldn’t be that slow and it probably won’t be.

⏹️ ▶️ John But we wouldn’t call it backups like that. It would not be a backup. That would be the up. There would

⏹️ ▶️ John be the, it would be the up that we’re backing, you know, like there is no backup. Like, of course, of course,

⏹️ ▶️ John all our information is just there. And of course, it is redundant and separated and travels with us

⏹️ ▶️ John and synchronized between these things. And whether it’s because we buy these little thumb-sized

⏹️ ▶️ John transporter-type things and spread them around, or whether there’s some sort of cloud storage solution that somebody does,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, this wad of data that we already make, we already each make this wad of data. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John too big for us to do anything with. We can barely have one primary location and then one backup that

⏹️ ▶️ John we put it to, let alone having it instantly synchronized everywhere. There’s not enough bandwidth for that and we’ve talked about it many times before

⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s just with current generation video and current stuff And I you know algorithms will increase but then

⏹️ ▶️ John I think so resolution will crease a little bit more And think of people who have a lifetime this stuff versus people

⏹️ ▶️ John who started taking high def video in 2007 How about people who start taking video high def

⏹️ ▶️ John video in 2007 and they’re eight years old and they do it for their entire life How much data they’re gonna have by the end of it?

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe they don’t want to keep it all but it seems like you’re gonna want to keep some of it somehow

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that makes sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, and I want to, before we leave this topic, I want to get back to the easy one that none of us picked for Casey saying, what’s going to look weird

⏹️ ▶️ John to our kids? The easy one that I don’t know if it’s not worth even mentioning is that of course all our crap is going

⏹️ ▶️ John to look humongous and ridiculous. Like of course it is the same way when you look at like full height hard drives

⏹️ ▶️ John or your full height tower PC case or like even our Mac Pro cheese grater is eventually when we get used to these Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pros, everything’s going to look gigantic. It’s like you carry this around like I have a Newton on my desk now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Newton looks ridiculous next to my iPod touch right of course that’s gonna happen with everything laptops phones

⏹️ ▶️ John Well

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah? I’m not so sure laptops and phones have both reached the point and and not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even recently they’ve both reached the point where they’re pretty much like as as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Small as they can be and still have the screen Size that they have and in the case of laptops

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still have like the keyboard size that they have like they there’s not a whole lot of room to make them a lot smaller

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and still keep those keyboards.

⏹️ ▶️ John If your iPhone 5 looked exactly like it does but was the thickness and weight of a credit card, your current

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone 5 would look ridiculous compared to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s true, but we’re talking about such a small scale. The differences are so much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco smaller. And some parts of computing have gotten bigger. Look how small that original Mac looks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It turns out things that are good to get bigger, we’ve gotten bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s like screen size. Even if you just look at the thickness of my 23 inch Apple Cinema display in front of me now

⏹️ ▶️ John compared to the thickness of an iMac which has a whole computer behind it. That is thinner than my monitor.

⏹️ ▶️ John It doesn’t have to be that big of a deal. If I compare my current iPod Touch to my first generation

⏹️ ▶️ John iPod Touch, that looks ridiculous and the difference is like 2mm. But you put it in your hand and you’re like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John how did you ever use this iPod Touch? It’s like twice the thickness. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John that big of a difference, but that tends to be glaring to people in retrospect how big and thick and heavy things were.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I think that’s a good point, but I think that Marco’s also right. That in terms of width and height,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not sure that that most devices are going to get that much smaller. I think you’re absolutely right. Then in terms of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey depth, they will get smaller.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, look at the Newton message pad has a small, it’s similar, probably similar screen

⏹️ ▶️ John size to an iPad mini, but way thicker and heavier. And so that’s what stands out. It’s not so much that like the width

⏹️ ▶️ John and height it’s different proportions than an iPad mini, but the area is similar, but it’s because it’s because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like a brick, then you feel like, Oh, well, you know, this, it feels old.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, and it’s funny, this, this is a bit of a tangent, but from our tangent of a tangent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of a tangent of a tangent, but on this show, yeah, exactly. Um, I got for Christmas, the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple leather case, a black one for my iPhone five S and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn’t typically, I had a bumper on my four S for a long, long, long time. I probably at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey half the time I had the four S and I liked it, but I mean it wasn’t my favorite, but I didn’t trust myself not to have a case

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at all, which I don’t really argue is the better way to go. And I wanted to try the leather

⏹️ ▶️ Casey case for the 5S because I felt like it would be a really nice compromise.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It didn’t seem to add that much thickness and it seemed to be pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nice. And I’ve had it since Christmas, like I said, and I actually really, really like it a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot. And it’s the first real case I’ve ever had,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a bumper or anything like that. And I really, really, really like it. I got the black one, so as it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fades, if it’s faded, I can’t tell, but it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t add that much thickness, which is what made me think of it. Or I don’t feel like it adds that much thickness.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Having come from a 4S not that long ago, it doesn’t add enough thickness to make it feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s ruined the phone. And I really, really like mine. I’m not saying that a case is right for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you, Marco, but, and I know, John, you don’t believe in iPhones for yourself, but I do really like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I often wonder why it seems, I mean is it just me, and saying this as somebody who doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy a lot of cases, is it just me or is there basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no competition for Apple’s cases for the iPhone and iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in how small and thin and light

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they tend to be and also how high quality they tend to feel and look.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, it seems like every other case I’ve seen, the high, there are high quality ones, but they’re substantially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bulkier. And all the ones that are super small and thin are like, you know, silicone,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thick, crappy things that feels like crap and looks like crap.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, how quickly we forget the iPad 1 case.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, well that, yeah, that was a

⏹️ ▶️ John disaster. Or the current, the current, like, non-leather wraparound the back of the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John cases. Those are not good either.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have one, and actually, I don’t particularly care for the one on the iPad mini. In

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fact, I take it off quite often just while I’m using the iPad because the damn magnet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that holds it to the back of the iPad is nowhere near strong enough. I feel like, John, you’ve said

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this in the past. Somebody has said this in the past, but.

⏹️ ▶️ John Having the cases be minimal though, I’m not sure if there’s much competition, for example, for the leather

⏹️ ▶️ John one. And I think a lot of that is because I think people like big, they wanna feel like they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John spending money on something like a big case. Like it seems like if you’re gonna get a case, you want to feel a case. And if you buy something

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s barely there, then you don’t feel like you’re getting anything. So maybe that’s why in the third party is there more of a

⏹️ ▶️ John market that, but I mean, you’ve remember, you’ve seen my iPod touch case, right? And everyone who sees

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPod touch case takes a double take to think, does this have a case on it yet? Or is this what the back

⏹️ ▶️ John of the iPod touch is like, and it’s just a, you know, a run of the mill Belkin plastic case.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, but because the iPod touch is so incredibly thin with the case on, it feels like almost

⏹️ ▶️ John like there’s no case there. And it’s very tightly fitting and you know it’s not made of some loosey-goosey

⏹️ ▶️ John material and Stretchy around the edges and everything and the buttons you know line up with all the things and feel

⏹️ ▶️ John nice when you’re pressing them in That way like the leather case it made me think of it was my wife’s got the red leather case for her 5s

⏹️ ▶️ John In the same way where you’re like well, you’re pushing buttons through the case or whatever it can be done Well reasonably well

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think there are case makers who do sort of compete in their realm if only on the iPod touch in this

⏹️ ▶️ John case But I bet there’s something out there for the 5s as well But mostly when I see people with cases, they

⏹️ ▶️ John are comical and huge and people love them.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John love them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although I will say very quickly the Achilles heel of this case is absolutely the lock button

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The lock button feels considerably more mushy than it did when it was caseless

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean the silent the ring silent button.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, the one at the top

⏹️ ▶️ John the sleep wake

⏹️ ▶️ Casey button Whatever. Hey A lot it feels a lot mushier

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I was told and I think it’s true that it would get better over time And it has gotten somewhat better over

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the last month or so, but it’s still not as crisp as I would like

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, you mean you mean the power button the sleep wake button ever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the one on the top the one on the top

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking of the one on this because the one on the side they Have a cutout for you stick your fingernail in there

⏹️ ▶️ John and you switch it to ring That’s what I was talking about. That one is actually they don’t cover up because I guess they couldn’t do it making

⏹️ ▶️ John sense. But yeah, the squishiness of the button on top, you’re right. It doesn’t quite feel like in that case, I think my cheap Belkin

⏹️ ▶️ John case from iPod Touch feels better because it’s more of a positive kind of click because it’s a it’s a material

⏹️ ▶️ John with less squishiness than leather. Leather itself is going to give so it’s harder for them. That’s why I think they should have made a leather case with

⏹️ ▶️ John like metal through buttons that would have been really nice and high quality, right? I agree. And it would

⏹️ ▶️ John have cost $80. Probably. Or 90. I don’t know. I don’t even know how much it costs. I don’t want to know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The leather case, it was a gift. I want to say it It was $40 or $50, I think, something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t remember. It was expensive enough that I didn’t want to buy it for myself. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me, that’s the perfect gift. It’s where it’s something that you want, but you don’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think you want to spend your own money on it. And of course, you could take this as a terrible thing. Oh, well, why don’t you buy it for me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey instead? But that’s the perfect gift, because it’s something you know you want. But it’s not something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you necessarily want to buy for yourself. But man, if somebody else buys it for you, that’s awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the best thing would be if your wife buys it for you with your shared pool of money. Then what have you done? Nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Nothing. It’s just like this crazy mental game playing with yourself.