Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

49: Roamio and Siracusiet

iOS storage management, dark times for TiVo and Nintendo, net neutrality, and “pro” iPads.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they introduced the iMac. It was on a pedestal. The G4 Cube came up from the floor.

⏹️ ▶️ John Phil

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Schiller had to

⏹️ ▶️ John jump onto an airbag. That’s real power.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we got some email from an Apple Store genius.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, last week we were talking about iCloud and who buys more storage for

⏹️ ▶️ John iCloud. And I think I said that I imagined that people would go in not knowing

⏹️ ▶️ John what this error message on their phone means, saying it says something and about iCloud, blah, blah, blah, fix

⏹️ ▶️ John it, Mr. Genius person at the bar. And what I assume they would do is say,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the genius would tell them, oh, it’s iCloud, we only give you a certain amount of storage for free, you’ve run out of that, if you want more, you have to pay, blah, blah, blah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and the customer would be pissed, and they would say, I don’t wanna pay more money for this stupid thing or whatever, but I figured they would eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John just pay because they just wanna keep using their phone the way they used to use it. And then at the end of that, I joke

⏹️ ▶️ John that, I said, oh, I guess they could just turn back off stuff entirely if they think nothing will ever happen to their phone. Well, according to this

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple Store genius who’s been there for two years, people do come in with the message that

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t understand what it means. It says not enough storage. And he says, the customer’s first reaction is not to pay for something

⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t understand. They just turn iCloud backup off and never think about it again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So there you go. Oh God, that’s so painful, but that’s extremely believable.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, the other thing is, or they don’t understand how to turn the prompt off and will just hit OK every morning when an iCloud backup

⏹️ ▶️ John was attempted. So like that’s their new way they use the phone. It’s like every morning there’s this dialogue box I’m going to

⏹️ ▶️ John hit OK and it goes away. It doesn’t bother me until the next few days. And he says, there are very few people who have actually paid for iCloud

⏹️ ▶️ John storage. In recent memory, the only people I can think of that bought it are people that assume iCloud storage

⏹️ ▶️ John will increase with the size of the phone’s storage capacity. And we talked about that before, like how

⏹️ ▶️ John ideally, you know, whatever they’re going to do with iCloud storage, it would match the size of

⏹️ ▶️ John the total sum size of the devices you have. So whether that’s free or whether it’s a fee or whatever, it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ John as you buy more devices, your storage should expand. should somehow build that into the price of the devices or build that into the

⏹️ ▶️ John price of iCloud, but they don’t. They give you… It’s freemium. They learned it from the App Store. They give you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco a

⏹️ ▶️ John little bit for free, and then you inevitably reach the limit, and you get it. But so I’m sad thinking of people going, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John I know how to fix this. I’ll just turn iCloud backups off. Done and done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If the problem is I get this box every morning that’s annoying, it does fix the problem, in quotes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know. I think the more we hear about these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stories of how regular people hit these walls on their iOS devices of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this photo storage wall and like what to do once you’ve hit that wall. It’s just so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sad and really it’s tragic how many people lose

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their photos that they’ve taken and you know keep in mind a lot of people their phone is their primary or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only camera and you know they could be taking like the only pictures they have of their kid

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know and look actually I know somebody who this happened to. So, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these problems really are affecting a lot of people in very big ways. And I have to imagine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, what we have now with iCloud photo backup, this can’t be like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, this can’t be the solution to this problem, period. Like, Apple really has to address this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a more serious way. And, you know, we’ve talked so much in the past, I don’t want to go over it too much.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ve talked so much in the past about the challenges of things like upstream bandwidth and uploading all your photos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and especially what the heck you do with videos that gain space on the device way faster

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than most people could upload them to a web service. But I think there’s such

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a huge gap between the ideal of backing up everything and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where we are now of backing up kind of partially some things. It’s very confusing. I think there’s a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of middle ground between those two that we can still achieve today, know that Apple could

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still achieve today if they wanted to and it just seems like either they can’t get their act together on that yet or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s not a priority enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah and I actually have some sort of related follow-up so last episode I lamented

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the fact that I had what I thought was multiple gigabytes of messages data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my iPhone and it was so much that it was preventing iCloud from backing up my iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I was running out of space and I hadn’t paid for any extra etc etc so I don’t remember if I had hard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey facts at the time we recorded, but I can tell you I’m looking at my iPhone right now and I have three and a half

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gigabytes of messages data as per the settings, then I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s general than usage, yeah, general than usage. And so I was, I concluded that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really need to get this off of my phone and as much as I love my animated GIFs, I can find

⏹️ ▶️ Casey them elsewhere. And so tonight I paid $35 for iExplorer,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which used to be known as iPhone Explorer, and I’m I’m sure someone will write and tell me, no, you idiot, you should have done it this way. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here’s the secret hack to get to these things. But nevertheless, I paid for this app and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it will let me extract SMSs from an unencrypted iTunes backup.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I had to do an unencrypted iTunes backup. Well, anyways, it will do many things. It will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey save PDFs of your messages. It’ll save CSVs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it’ll also save text files. And I exported

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just my conversations with Aaron, my wife, and as a PDF, which does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the little chat bubbles and everything, it was 217 megs. As a CSV file

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where it’s nothing but text, it was still two megs of messages. And that’s because I haven’t deleted any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to my recollection since I got my, uh, three GS in what either 2008 or 2010. I always get that wrong. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, so the point is there, I had a lot of messages on my phone and I don’t view this as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something abnormal. And, and this is something that I feel like a lot of regular people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do. And, and I’m really, I’m surprised that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hasn’t found a better way to handle this. And it makes sense because it, in Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey perspective, it stands to reason they wouldn’t have to handle this because maybe normal people do delete their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey messages, but I would assume that not all normal people do, and certainly I think of myself as slightly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey normal and I didn’t. So this is kind of a bummer and and hopefully after the show I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be able to go through and delete all of these text messages and all of the animated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gifs and emojis that are associated with them and Hopefully reclaim all that three and a half gigs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then be able to use iCloud for backups again

⏹️ ▶️ John So I guess you don’t need this new romantimatic application Do you know about

⏹️ ▶️ John this?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s all made an application. I think I think it was Greg Noss or somebody I know from the incomparable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, is this the thing that like pings you? Reminds

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you to

⏹️ ▶️ John send nice text messages to your significant other. It seems like you’re all set in that regard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, that could have been a fast text feature.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It could have been.

⏹️ ▶️ John He doesn’t need it, obviously.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Clearly not. Which by the way, I have a new icon for fast text. My, my internet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey friend, Jacob Swidek has been working with me, that poor guy. And I have a new icon.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I haven’t quite finished the update to fast text, but I don’t need to hear any more complaining from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John and Marco about the icon soon.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m going to complain if the new one doesn’t have feet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Doesn’t have feet. No! I’m sorry. I’m sorry. It’s terrible. But the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey icon is so much better. Oh my goodness, it’s so much better.

⏹️ ▶️ John No feet, no sale.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Going back to the photo thing, and the messages thing too,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s one of those problems where where iOS has this kind of idealized

⏹️ ▶️ Marco picture of conditions of usage. And this has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been a problem with a lot of Apple software, you know, the iPhoto storage and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco organization methods, iTunes, etc. There’s these idealized

⏹️ ▶️ Marco situations that I guess the designers at Apple figure this is how people use this thing. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they try to hide the complexity of dealing with computers and the reality of computers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And when you get to something like the photo storage and backup issues on iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and even things like messages taking up a ton of space, I think the big problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that you’re hitting these places where it’s, to use a Joel on software term, it’s a leaky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco abstraction. You can’t hide the realities of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computing devices having limited storage space. Photos and videos shot by good cameras

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are huge. Upstream bandwidth in most places is not great and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oftentimes not free for very long. There’s all these inconvenient

⏹️ ▶️ Marco truths in the reality of using these computing systems that iOS either

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ignores or buries so deeply that people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do have to deal with the problem of storage space. That’s a reasonable thing to expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco somebody using a computing device to do. You have this much space, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re trying to store more stuff than it holds, so you’ve got to make some decisions here. And iOS really makes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that hard. Merlin talked about this a lot too. Like it makes it very hard to know where the storage is being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used. It’s very hard to to control that to to delete things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco intelligently to make space intelligently to know what’s being backed up somewhere and what isn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, a lot of the blame for this lays on the design of iOS for for trying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to pretend like these realities don’t exist when in fact they’re extremely common.

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS loves to do the thing where like the usage screen where I spend a lot of my time because I always buy 32

⏹️ ▶️ John gig iOS devices and I can barely fit my stuff on them. So I’m always right up against the storage limit because of like

⏹️ ▶️ John movies for the kids and other random things that I put on there. You know, video always pushes me over the edge. So I spend a lot of time

⏹️ ▶️ John on the usage screen looking at that stupid scrolling list and expanding it and seeing it. And the solution to

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re out of room is look at that big list, find the application that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like that’s big that you don’t think that you need or whatever and delete the entire application because you’re like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John can I just delete a couple of the things in there? in that application. In some cases, you can’t like video, you can do the individual videos

⏹️ ▶️ John from the video application. But in other cases, applications are not designed to say, Hey, I’m application

⏹️ ▶️ John food, here’s all the list of the data that I’m storing. And you want I can purge my caches, I can delete these old

⏹️ ▶️ John things that you haven’t seen in a while, I can, you know, just some way to manage the data in the application,

⏹️ ▶️ John the only solution is, you know, hold down go into wiggle mode, hit the little x nuke the whole application.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I recently had to do that with Instapaper because I was up to like 1.2 gigs. Instapaper was 1.2

⏹️ ▶️ John gigs and it’s the paper doesn’t have any way like within it to like trim its data or whatever. I could have gone through the individual

⏹️ ▶️ John things and deleted them off or whatever. The easiest thing for me to do, because luckily Instapaper is, has a server side

⏹️ ▶️ John component was to delete the whole app and then reinstall it. And there was basically no loss in functionality,

⏹️ ▶️ John but whatever the hell Instapaper was keeping around was gone. And then it’s the paper shrunk back down to its normal size. And I’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s slowly growing back up as I go. I mean, that’s, that’s an extreme case or whatever, but you know, same thing with the SMS things.

⏹️ ▶️ John You could have gone through the SMS app and deleted individual messages if you wanted. But nobody, after a certain, once

⏹️ ▶️ John you hit that limit with SMS, I know so many people have hit this limit in iOS, no one’s gonna go back and

⏹️ ▶️ John delete individual messages. And there’s nothing in the messages application that says delete messages

⏹️ ▶️ John older than X, delete messages from, you know, do something complicated, do like a search

⏹️ ▶️ John query, find all those, delete. Like there’s not a lot of good solutions and you can’t delete the messages application as far as I know. So

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS tries to simplify things, but then it ends up chunking it into these big immutable blobs of data.

⏹️ ▶️ John And people are forced to make choices like, should I delete this entire application? I guess it’s my only

⏹️ ▶️ John choice. I mean, and some people, maybe they don’t even know that you can go into the video and delete individual videos, but

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, it’s a difficult situation. It will kind of be better if, when Apple does a storage

⏹️ ▶️ John shift, because I think most people can get away with like a 64 gig device and be

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty sloppy, but lots of people are buying 16s, and that’s just not enough for anybody to use for more than like

⏹️ ▶️ John a year and not run out of room.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, neither way, if you have the 16 gig device and if you have 16 gigs of legitimate data

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on it, that’s not gonna get backed up to iCloud unless you pony up some money. And this is where, like you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys had mentioned earlier in Bradley Chambers, I think was the first place I’ve seen this, said, well, the amount

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of iCloud backup you have should be the cumulative size of all of your devices associated

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with that account. So if you have a 32 gig phone and a 32 gig iPad, then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as far as we’re concerned, the size of your iCloud allotment should be 64 gigs,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is a lot more than five, obviously.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even then, though, I mean, obviously, we’re not talking about desktop size backup sets, but even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that might hit problems with upstream limits.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, very much so. But I mean, at least it’s a step. It’s an improvement. True.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, definitely. All right. We are sponsored this week. Our first sponsor is

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we talked a lot about Google last episode and buying Nest and so on and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so forth. And we’ve had at least a couple of people write in and actually have some really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey interesting feedback about that. But John, I believe it was you that added something in particular?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I just wanted to note this one thing, not to go into too much depth. So we were talking about why they buy

⏹️ ▶️ John Nest. Is it because they want to get into consumer products, because they want more information, blah, blah, blah. And Troy Diamond

⏹️ ▶️ John wrote in to mention one specific product that is actually directly connected to what Nest does,

⏹️ ▶️ John which doesn’t necessarily mean that it has anything to do with why they bought Nest, but it’s an interesting coincidence.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s this genie project that they were doing. It’s about creating a smart building for

⏹️ ▶️ John sustainable construction and environmentally friendly buildings and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John This was another one of their pie in the sky things that Google does, like self-driving cars or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apparently, they spun it off into another company, so I don’t know how much bearing this has on Nest, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it just goes to show that the type of things that Nest is doing, albeit on a very small scale, using technology

⏹️ ▶️ John to make things that we all have, that we’ve, you know, we don’t question, like our thermostats or our smoke

⏹️ ▶️ John detectors or whatever, more intelligent to try to make for more efficient building. Google’s already gone down that road

⏹️ ▶️ John partially with this project. I should put this link in the show notes if people want to know more. Again, I don’t think this has much to

⏹️ ▶️ John do with Nest at all, but it just goes to show that like the similarity of thinking like Nest is not too far from

⏹️ ▶️ John something that Google might have done, although the way Google does it is to do some crazy far-reaching

⏹️ ▶️ John sci-fi thing and then just lose interest and spin it off. But Nest actually focuses on a small area and

⏹️ ▶️ John ships a product that people might want to buy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I think this might turn into the John Syracuse Show, which will probably make a lot of people, including me, very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey happy. I hear that there’s some things going on with TiVo that happened

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right before we recorded and we’re recording on Wednesday night.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, this is late-breaking, so there’s not much info.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right before

⏹️ ▶️ John I was going in to set up my computer to record, someone tweeted some link to

⏹️ ▶️ John a Wired story that TiVo had laid off most of its hardware design team,

⏹️ ▶️ John supposedly, and that they’re getting out of the hardware business, which really annoys me,

⏹️ ▶️ John mostly because I don’t want to buy the new TiVo that came out. Like when it came out, people were like, oh, aren’t you going to get this

⏹️ ▶️ John new TiVo? It’s supposedly faster, so on and so forth. And I read all the reviews and I said, no, just wait for the next one, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, maybe there won’t be a next one. It’s a confusing article where it says they laid off five people and that

⏹️ ▶️ John was most of their hardware design team. I mean, I guess that would explain some things, but I don’t know. It’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John too early to know if this is like a rumor gone bad and they just did some sort of reshuffling or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it seems like TiVo wants to get into the business of supplying software to other people who make set-top

⏹️ ▶️ John boxes and doing server-side DVRs like the AT&T U-verse thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John rather than selling you a box with a hard drive a CPU that you put in your home. And I kind of like the box with the hard drive and

⏹️ ▶️ John the CPU that you put in your home. So as I tweeted, does

⏹️ ▶️ John this mean now I have to get one of these TiVos because like my television, it’s like, well, it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John last one they’re making and when it goes away, who knows what you’ll be able to buy? I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just priced one out and even with like a discount code that you get for doing, filling out their stupid monthly survey

⏹️ ▶️ John things, it’s still like, still like a 900 something dollars for me to get the

⏹️ ▶️ John big honkin’ TiVo that I want with lifetime service. Wait, what? Are you serious?

⏹️ ▶️ John Half of that is the service cost. So the box itself is, you know, $500 or less for the

⏹️ ▶️ John big one that holds like 450 hours of HD content with six tuners. Right? That’s what we’re talking about

⏹️ ▶️ John here. This is the big, the big guns. I don’t shop down at the low end of the range. And then double,

⏹️ ▶️ John double that price for the service contract. And the service contract is like basically

⏹️ ▶️ John paying for them to send you program information for the life of the device. You could pay like $12

⏹️ ▶️ John a month if you want to do it month by month or you can pay some big amount of money and get lifetime and I usually get lifetime

⏹️ ▶️ John because I keep my TiVo boxes for years like I you know I slowly rotate them and retire them out but most of the

⏹️ ▶️ John time the lifetime thing more than pays for itself because I retire the TiVo after three four or five years and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John you know at $12 a month doesn’t take too many years to equal like a hundred two hundred dollars or whatever it used

⏹️ ▶️ John to be for lifetime but They keep bringing the prices up and I don’t want to pay month to month so I always look at the lifetime

⏹️ ▶️ John thing But my current lifetime on my TiVo Premiere is not close to being paid for I forget what I paid

⏹️ ▶️ John for that lifetime thing, but that’s another reason I didn’t buy the new Romeo

⏹️ ▶️ John DVR when it came out even though it does look like it’s faster and nicer than mine Some of the menus still weren’t HD and I said I’ll just

⏹️ ▶️ John wait for the next one I’m still in the middle of my lifetime in this on I don’t need a new TiVo my current TiVo is

⏹️ ▶️ John fine Such as it is But now that they’re getting out of this business Now

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to play that stupid game where I wait and see if I can get one of these when they become cheap Or maybe they’ll never become cheap

⏹️ ▶️ John and let it disappear. I don’t know. I’m kind of sad about it, though

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So everything you like is disappearing from under you. I’m surprised. There’s a new Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John Well sort of yeah it’s not that like I don’t the TV thing is

⏹️ ▶️ John just like a Fluke kind of where because there will be better TVs eventually like OLEDs will eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John become cheaper and they’ll be way better than what I have now. But it’s just, you know, we’re in a

⏹️ ▶️ John lull period where the thing that I want is going away and something

⏹️ ▶️ John better will come and replace it, but I don’t know when that will be. But the television, I was,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it was a clear choice because my old TV, like you could buy almost any modern TV and it’d be better than

⏹️ ▶️ John my old one, just because technology moved on in four years for plasmas. But

⏹️ ▶️ John for TiVo, my current one is still pretty darn good. it’s very reliable. Four tuners, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t need six tuners, four tuners is enough. The only reason I would get the new one is because the UI is faster and that’s the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that drives me crazy about my current one. That and the stupid ads. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. I haven’t decided what I’m gonna do but I’m sad that they’re apparently getting out of the heart.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I still think there’s a market for this product. What it does is amazing. People who I still, people who I know who have

⏹️ ▶️ John never had TiVo and they happen to buy one, like Scott McElty from The Incomparable had never had a TiVo I think and he bought one recently.

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s just amazed by it. He’s like, wow, this is great. I’m like, yes, I could not, you know, I could not

⏹️ ▶️ John watch television without Tiva. I wouldn’t I never want to use a cable companies DVR, I would never want to not have a DVR.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is how I want to do it. It’s just that this hardware could be so much better. It just needs a little bit, a

⏹️ ▶️ John little bit of finesse and know how applied to it make the CPUs faster, make everything about it better,

⏹️ ▶️ John improve the software, like, it’s so close. And it’s so much better than everything else. But to see them sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John bail on the business and just decide they’re gonna get in bed with the cable companies and just supply software like

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t I don’t know where their expertise lies so there are they great at making hardware no not really

⏹️ ▶️ John they great at making software no not really the combination was something that didn’t exist before the box that you could have in your house it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like transport a box in your house with the hard drive with stuff on it no cloud stuff needed

⏹️ ▶️ John just program information that you can come down and it’s got a lot of features now like the iOS apps aren’t that bad you

⏹️ ▶️ John can control your Tevo from the other side of the country with your with your phone or your iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John You could stream to your iPad from your house and what there’s all sorts of things you can do with the hardware that they Have they finally started to

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of get some useful features under them It’s just that the hardware was not great and their their

⏹️ ▶️ John software was a little bit creaky. I don’t know. I’m sad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, if that makes you sad, what do you think of the Nintendo stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ John That actually makes me less say yes, that’s the next thing I think but before we leave this topic I want to ask you guys do you guys do either one of you guys have a

⏹️ ▶️ John Tevo?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I have Verizon’s DVR that comes, well, I shouldn’t say comes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with your cable service, but just a year ago, Aaron

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I finally decided that I think $10 or $15 a month was worth it for DVR. So everyone else

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the planet had had a DVR for easily five years and we just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got one, like I said, around a year ago. And I really like it, but I feel like I could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey live without it. I don’t find it to be, I find it to be sufficient

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I’ve never really used a TiVo. All I need it to do is record the shows I want and play the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show I want when I ask it to play it. I guess maybe I’m ignorant, but I don’t see why you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need anything more than that. In my menus, if memory serves, are in HD.

⏹️ ▶️ John How much programming can you fit on your?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I don’t have the faintest idea. We don’t watch enough TV to ever get that close.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco To me, I always avoided this stuff. I had a DVR box from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the cable company for a few years and then I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was one of those people who cut cable. That was a while ago. That was in 2007, 2008 maybe.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was a while ago. To me, one of the reasons I did that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is because as a nerd, looking at DVRs, it’s just such a terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hack. And it’s hacks on top of hacks on top of hacks. Mixing in TiVo is even more hacky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because then you have to deal with your cable company’s crap. It’s layers upon layers of fragile

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hacky things that can and often do fail or break. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would rather just put the same amount of money really or less, what ends up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being less most of the time, into Netflix and iTunes purchases.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it works for us because the shows we watch shows we watch are available that way and the money works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out where like you know we don’t watch so many shows where that would be prohibitively expensive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know it doesn’t work for everybody of course you know like if you like live sports and stuff like that it’s not going to work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but for us it works very well and so to me that’s a much more elegant solution if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can fit within it because then you don’t have to like fast-forward through commercials you don’t have to worry about what if you know what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the thing missed the start time by five minutes because something changed at the last second all that crazy stuff you have to deal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with with DVR storage space. I mean, all that crazy stuff, you know, it’s, I prefer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to just do the like 80% solution of I can get 80% of what we want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this far better way. That’s usually cheaper and has all these other advantages. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for example, no commercials ever, all these other advantages. It’s just to me, that’s a much more elegant future.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so the idea of buying a really decked out DVR for me seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like investing in the wrong future. But that’s again, it’s only because my consumption habits

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fit within the way I’ve chosen to do things.

⏹️ ▶️ John There are some advantages, even if you’re not a heavy TV watcher. If you’re a heavy TV watcher, like I am

⏹️ ▶️ John and my whole family is, then you can’t use a cable company to provide DVR because they don’t have enough storage space.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like we, my thing has, I think it has like a three terabyte drive in there and we fill it constantly. We’re deleting

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff to make room for things. So we fill the thing up because it’s just four people’s worth of programming on there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, we have another two terabytes upstairs and we, you know, use the super set of that storage.

⏹️ ▶️ John So, you know, and if you’re heavy TV viewer, that’s what you, you know, it’s obvious that you can’t get by with any other solution.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re a heavy TV viewer, that also means you’re not content to wait until they show up on iTunes. It’s not even

⏹️ ▶️ John the money thing. It’s just like, can I watch it right now? It’s on right now. Why can’t I watch it right now? Or how about you just torrented? Is it available?

⏹️ ▶️ John Although I had to get deal with the torrenting and stuff like that. It’s like Like this, this is the solution that gets you

⏹️ ▶️ John the programming you want when you want it more or less. And if you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John care about that, then yeah, the solution is better. But I would say even, even if you’re not a heavy TV watcher, and even if you don’t care about

⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit of delay, the main feature that I think of all these DVRs in the age of cable card is they make it so you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have to have a cable box. If you think you want to have cable for whatever reason, I can’t imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John having a cable box. I’ve never had a cable box. I’ve never had a cable box in any house that I,

⏹️ ▶️ John let me see, maybe in the apartment. I don’t think in any house that I’ve owned, I’ve had a cable box at all. When

⏹️ ▶️ John before, maybe before around the time my first child was born, we said, okay, we’re not gonna have time

⏹️ ▶️ John to watch our TV shows the way we normally have, because once you have a kid, you can’t be like, oh, it’s eight o’clock, let’s go sit down and watch the TV, because

⏹️ ▶️ John that doesn’t work anymore. And that’s when I sort of said my goodbyes to live TV. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like saying your goodbyes to the light when you become a vampire. When I got my first TiVo like nine, 10 years

⏹️ ▶️ John ago, That was it. I said goodbye to live television. I will never watch live television again. I will never see a commercial

⏹️ ▶️ John again that I don’t skip through with 30 seconds skip button. Live television is dead to me. Flipping through channels is

⏹️ ▶️ John dead to me. All of that, totally gone. From that point on, for like the past decade of my life, television

⏹️ ▶️ John is I go in front of my television, turn it on, go to some box that’s connected to it and select what I

⏹️ ▶️ John want to watch from it. And it just so happens that TiVo is filled with all the programming that I want to

⏹️ ▶️ John record, and you know, in sort of real time. And even when we watch quote unquote live television,

⏹️ ▶️ John we always wait for the commercials to queue up. Like we don’t start watching our eight o’clock programs until 8.30 because we know we’ll never

⏹️ ▶️ John have to see a commercial that way. You don’t have to do it with HBO shows, we can watch them in real time because they have no commercials.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I just think it’s a more civilized way to watch television because cable boxes, DVRs are no, cable

⏹️ ▶️ John boxes are disgusting. Just terrible black boxes with those big red LEDs on them and the horrible

⏹️ ▶️ John remotes they give you. I never want one of those things in my house at all. And this is like, you can buy your own box, get this little cable

⏹️ ▶️ John card, put it in there, and you know, get files or something in the basement, run the coax up there.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the same reason I don’t use the cable companies router. I don’t want their box. I don’t want their router. I don’t want anything in the house.

⏹️ ▶️ John So for that reason alone, I think if you subscribe to cable, it is better to have

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the smaller Tevo DVRs than to take their cable box. But if you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want cable, then you have the table is not doing anything for you. And if you can get by with the I think

⏹️ ▶️ John even Casey, depending on how much you use your your Verizon DVR thing, you would probably

⏹️ ▶️ John like a TiVo better, but probably not as to be worth the amount of money that it costs. Although, how much do you pay per month

⏹️ ▶️ John for that DVR thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s about $15. And I don’t debate that a TiVo is surely better in every measurable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way, and probably a bunch of immeasurable ones as well. But to me,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey having never had a DVR before, I’m just excited that I have a thing, a machine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you will, that will record the television shows that we do watch without me having to intervene.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And to your point a moment ago, I use the Verizon piece of crap action tech

⏹️ ▶️ Casey router that I was given when we moved into the house in 2008. And I have some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John intervention,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I probably but but it hasn’t caused me any issues. Now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Wi Fi, I use a slightly old Airport Extreme. So really the only thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this router is doing is getting internet to my set-top boxes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and getting internet to my Airport Extreme. And for that, it’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And again, I completely understand and agree that not having to use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Verizon router would probably be better and not having to use the Verizon DVR would probably be better. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it serves my needs just fine. And so I don’t have any compelling reason to upgrade that I’m aware

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of.

⏹️ ▶️ John $15 a month, though, that adds up. You should wait until they have a fire sale in the last Tivo Romeos and get one of the small ones and just try

⏹️ ▶️ John it. I think you will. I think cost wise, it may end up being cheaper and it will be a nicer experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Probably. And you know, the chat room is saying, oh, well, you’re renting that equipment. I’m absolutely renting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the DVR. I don’t recall if I’m renting the router. It stands to reason

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am. But again, for me, it’s sufficient. And I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey our Verizon bill is somewhere around $150, $160 for the baller but not obscene

⏹️ ▶️ Casey internet. So not quite Marco level, but really good internet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and reasonable cable. We have HD service, of course, but we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get any like Cinemax or HBO or anything like that. And we even have a home telephone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a reason I haven’t quite figured out yet. And for that, it’s about $150. And I actually, I love

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my Fios. I would be devastated if we ever moved to a place

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that didn’t have Verizon Fios. So I mean, I don’t think that that’s a terrible deal, but I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe I’m missing out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our second sponsor this week is our friends at Harvest. Harvest is a beautifully

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco how terrible most of them are, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, in fact when I was a C++ developer many years ago, I taught myself

⏹️ ▶️ Casey C Sharp by writing my own time tracking tool which was indeed terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nice. Well, Harvest fixes all that. Harvest is a great, beautifully

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco your timer app or you know, you just go to Harvest from any device, you can start a timer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You won’t have to play the memory game later with your time sheet. You can stay focused on the task at hand. Just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco start the timer anywhere and get to work. All your tracked hours appear in visual time reports

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we never actually got to Nintendo, right? Or am I crazy?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, we didn’t. I delayed it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Okay. Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are they dead yet? Oh, it’s going to be a while. Yeah, so

⏹️ ▶️ John they announced their financials, or their expected financials or projections, And they’re forecasting

⏹️ ▶️ John a $240 million annual loss because the Wii U is not selling. And they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John cutting their forecast on how many Wii U’s they think they’re going to sell. They previously had said they were going to sell 9

⏹️ ▶️ John million, and now they’re saying they’re going to sell 2.8 million. And even Wii U games, they

⏹️ ▶️ John cut that from saying they were going to sell 38 million Wii U games to saying they were going to sell 19 million.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you know, everyone knows the Wii U is not selling. was not done anything to

⏹️ ▶️ John make it sell any better. 3ds is doing okay. Not great, not terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was actually the best selling console fall of 2013, which is not that impressive because

⏹️ ▶️ John what did it compete with in 2013, a bunch of old consoles that were on the way out the door, but it was also the best selling console

⏹️ ▶️ John in December, which is kind of impressive because in December, the new consoles were just coming out and you think you know, they’re sold like

⏹️ ▶️ John a million dollars and a million units in the first day or whatever. So I mean, Compared to the DS

⏹️ ▶️ John numbers, 3DS isn’t big, but compared to how dedicated gaming devices are selling now, 3DS

⏹️ ▶️ John is doing pretty well for itself. Wow, someone, real time follow up in

⏹️ ▶️ John the chat room, someone, TiVo refutes the rumors and said hardware is a core component of its business. Okay, well I’ll read that link

⏹️ ▶️ John later to see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, I read that when somebody posted it earlier, and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual response from the TiVo person, it kind of… Double

⏹️ ▶️ Marco speak? It basically sounds like they’re trying not to scare people away from buying the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Romeos. So it’s basically saying like, we’re going to keep supporting the Romeo. But it doesn’t really,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a lot of doublespeak that basically sounds like, yeah, we’re gonna keep supporting that, but don’t expect much else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because we’re focusing on cloud.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s, that’s kind of like when when Panasonic was getting out of the, the plasma

⏹️ ▶️ John business for like a year leading up to that, there was like, there’d be a story say, Oh, Panasonic is getting out of plasma business, Panasonic

⏹️ ▶️ John would issue some statement that neither confirms nor denies but kind of tries to tell you no it’s okay

⏹️ ▶️ John you should buy our existing tvs because we have inventory to clear but never officially saying we’re getting out of the business

⏹️ ▶️ John until like the whole year is up and then Panasonic then finally officially says yes it’s true we’re getting out of you know so where there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John smoke there’s fire but we’ll continue with that i’ll look at that story after the show that’s why i prefaced

⏹️ ▶️ John it with saying i just saw this link just before we came in who knows how accurate it is it’s kind of fuzzy information but

⏹️ ▶️ John the signs don’t look good. But anyway, Nintendo, I don’t think there’s any news here.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like we all knew the Wii U wasn’t selling that well. I guess it could have sold gangbusters in December,

⏹️ ▶️ John but even if it did, I mean, the PS4 and Xbox One sold

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty well in December. Like they’re coming out of the gate strong and they got

⏹️ ▶️ John outsold by the 3DS. And what I’ve always said about Nintendo, and this is the time of

⏹️ ▶️ John year when people are going to keep posting more stories about what what Nintendo should or shouldn’t do or whatever, is that

⏹️ ▶️ John as long as there’s a market for dedicated gaming devices, Nintendo can, Nintendo

⏹️ ▶️ John has a way to thrive and to, you know, to be successful and to be the Nintendo we want to be. Just

⏹️ ▶️ John because there is a way for them to do that doesn’t mean they will do it. You know, that’s, that’s the distinction that,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, you know, subtleties that most people will probably forget about. There is a way for Nintendo

⏹️ ▶️ John to, to win as long as people are willing to buy hardware that mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John just plays games. If people stop being willing to buy hardware that just play games, Nintendo can’t play

⏹️ ▶️ John anymore because Nintendo can’t make a general purpose OS. I don’t think they don’t have the expertise. They can barely make

⏹️ ▶️ John a dedicated gaming console software stack. They can’t make something

⏹️ ▶️ John based on Android. They can’t make their own iOS. They can’t be a platform. They can’t. They just can’t do that. They don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John the people do that. It’s very difficult to do. So as long as people keep buying dedicated gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John devices, all Nintendo needs to do is make really good dedicated gaming devices with really good games

⏹️ ▶️ John that people want to buy. That’s it. It sounds easy, doesn’t it? Well, if they don’t make

⏹️ ▶️ John game hardware that people want to buy and games that people want to buy, they can still fail under that scenario. But at least

⏹️ ▶️ John it won’t be like, well, it’s out of the question. They can’t like, I think there’s nothing they can do to say

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re going to make our own operating system and our own app store and our own general purpose platform that does more than

⏹️ ▶️ John games. That’s that’s just out of the question for them. The only thing they can do and the only thing I think they should do

⏹️ ▶️ John is try to make game devices that people really want to buy with great games

⏹️ ▶️ John that people want to buy on them. And that’s it. And they’re not doing that now. They made the Wii U and no one seems to want

⏹️ ▶️ John it for, I think what should be fairly obvious reasons at this point. It’s, it’s weak. It has bad third party

⏹️ ▶️ John game support because it’s weak. It’s like a, it’s like a previous gen console that no one is really interested

⏹️ ▶️ John in and that the novelty this time of the second screen is not catching on with people and Nintendo hasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John demonstrated why it should catch on and it’s just a bad situation but they do have 14 billion dollars

⏹️ ▶️ John in the bank as I said I think a couple months ago when this came up in the first round of Nintendo whoa it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like they just need to like reset and think about what they’re gonna do for their next

⏹️ ▶️ John thing I don’t know they don’t need to give up on the Wii U they still think they still need to put out whatever games they have planned for the Wii U

⏹️ ▶️ John even if it doesn’t sell a lot of units and third-party support is just disappearing for the Wii U because who the hell is gonna make a game

⏹️ ▶️ John for a crappy console that can’t run modern games and has very few, uh, you know, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not selling a lot of units. No one’s going to sign up to make games for that. It’s just grim. But Nintendo will make games for it because

⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo will make money off its games for it. And you know, what choice do they have? So I think that we’ll just

⏹️ ▶️ John make games to the way you put them out. The thing will sort of fade away and intended just thinks it needs

⏹️ ▶️ John to think about what it’s going to do next. Spend that part of that $14 billion wisely and come out

⏹️ ▶️ John with a good idea with a good platform And hope that by the time they do that that the market

⏹️ ▶️ John for dedicated gaming hardware has not disappeared as I said many times I think there is room for one more generation

⏹️ ▶️ John of dedicated to gaming hardware And this is it ps4 and Xbox one after the ps4 Xbox

⏹️ ▶️ John one seven eight years from now I’ll have to revisit that question and say is there still a market for dedicated gaming hardware? Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John then the answer will be no and then Nintendo is screwed but for now Nintendo just did a big swing and I

⏹️ ▶️ John miss this generation with their consoles and and maybe got like a foul tip with their handhelds.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Which, do you think, are they in worse shape now as they were when they launched the GameCube? I know the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco GameCube was not a huge success, was it?

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re worse off now in terms of sales, but I’m assuming they have much more money in the bank now than they did

⏹️ ▶️ John back then.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Because

⏹️ ▶️ John the GameCube, if you look at the charts, the GameCube sold more than,

⏹️ ▶️ John easily more than the Wii U. Like, if there were all the problems that the GameCube had, Nintendo would kill to

⏹️ ▶️ John get GameCube-like numbers on the Wii U. They do not have that now. And the DS sold way

⏹️ ▶️ John better than the 3DS. But a lot of that is kind of like, look at the downward trend of dedicated gaming devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, overall, the market is slowly declining. And so everything’s like relative. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, the 3DS is doing well now, but nothing compared to the DS. And the GameCube was seen as a failure because it was

⏹️ ▶️ John a third place console then, but boy, what would Nintendo would give to sell GameCube-like numbers of Wii

⏹️ ▶️ John U at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So if you take off your Nintendo fanboy, and I mean that in a good way, hat it,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re the only one of us that has a Wii U. And when, when we visited, I played it for five minutes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it, it seemed nice, but whatever it taking off the hat,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the fanboy hat, is it a good system? I know what you just said about it being not very powerful, but just in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey general, is it good?

⏹️ ▶️ John The games that Nintendo will make for the Wii U. Uh, and that they already have made

⏹️ ▶️ John demonstrated as a thing, a platform that you can have fun games on. And I’ve said before, you can

⏹️ ▶️ John have kinds of fun and kinds of games on the Wii U that you can’t have in any other console because of that

⏹️ ▶️ John weird second screen thing. It doesn’t mean that they’re the most amazing games in the world, but there’s experiences you

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t have other places. And like the Nintendo Land, the thing that demonstrates,

⏹️ ▶️ John like here’s umpteen different ways you can use our combination of hardware. Some of them are fun, some of them aren’t, but out of

⏹️ ▶️ John that big collection of mini games, there’s three or four in there that are really interesting and novel that

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t be matched anywhere else. So if you’re into games and you want to say, show me a new way to be entertained

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of just another first-person shooter, Nintendo is showing you that. Kind of like on the Xbox

⏹️ ▶️ John One and the Xbox 360 with the Kinect, Microsoft said, you can stand up in front of

⏹️ ▶️ John the TV and wave your arms and legs around. That’s a new way to play games. Try that. Do you like it? Is it fun?

⏹️ ▶️ John Whether you like it or not, that’s something you can’t experience on the other consoles because they don’t have the Kinect. They may have the

⏹️ ▶️ John eye toy and the other things, the cameras or whatever, but Nintendo does have something novel with

⏹️ ▶️ John the Wii U. And so that’s one aspect of it. The second aspect is

⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo makes great games and their games are going to be on the Wii U, their games are not going to be on

⏹️ ▶️ John any of the other consoles. So if you’re interested in playing the next Zelda game, there’s only one place to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And maybe the next Zelda game won’t take advantage of any of the Wii U features, unique features at all, but it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John still be a great game. And it’s kind of the same reason I got a PlayStation 3 to play The Last Guardian, which has still not been

⏹️ ▶️ John released. But, you know, Journey is an example. Journey was is not available in any other platform.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would buy a ps3 just to play journey journey Could be on any platform doesn’t use any unique features. It’s like analog stick

⏹️ ▶️ John and buttons It’s not like you need the connect for it’s not like you need a second screen. It’s a very straightforward game It could

⏹️ ▶️ John be a PC game. Hell it could probably even exist on iOS. God forbid But it was

⏹️ ▶️ John only on the ps3. So that’s why I bought a ps3 And I continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to think that you know That’s the way forward for a Nintendo is Make awesome hardware that people want that third

⏹️ ▶️ John parties are willing to support that sells in big numbers and also make your very best games And put them only on your hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s it. Just simple as that Nintendo I don’t know see what the problem is You’re just gonna make awesome games and hardware that

⏹️ ▶️ John people love

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in order to win you have to do well geez

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean like this people keep talking about structural things like oh, they need a different strategy even Nintendo itself saying

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, we’ll have to look at smartphones and do this and do that It’s like I don’t think that’s a winning strategy

⏹️ ▶️ John for Nintendo because I don’t think Nintendo can Can do what it does

⏹️ ▶️ John it you know this people keep making this analogy and saying why it’s not apt or whatever But there’s enough aspects of it that I think

⏹️ ▶️ John our app that it’s worth revisiting and thinking about again It’s kind of like when Apple was in trouble and they were totally in

⏹️ ▶️ John trouble like in the 90s And people were saying Apple needs to get out of the hardware business and just put Mac OS on Windows

⏹️ ▶️ John PCs Right because what they’re doing now is not working They’re not making hardware that people want to

⏹️ ▶️ John buy people kind of like this software Why not just put that software on other people’s hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John and you could argue that had Steve Jobs not returned Apple would have gone down the tubes and gone bankrupt

⏹️ ▶️ John and people would have said See you should have just put Mac OS on PC hardware your stupid thing of

⏹️ ▶️ John selling you, you know Why are you why did you keep doing that? Why did you keep sticking keeping your software just to your hardware that

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody wanted? Why don’t you just put it on generic x86 hardware and now you’re out of business You should have listened

⏹️ ▶️ John to me. But instead, Steve Jobs came back and did the thing that I’m teasingly saying is so easy. How about you just make computers

⏹️ ▶️ John that people actually want to buy? And then you put your good software on it, you make that even better too.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then when you have hardware and software that people want to buy, you can become successful.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not as simple as that because Apple did other things as well. But there is a definite analogy in that

⏹️ ▶️ John what Nintendo makes is a combination of hardware and software that gives a unique experience that

⏹️ ▶️ John is potentially better than all of its competitors. and that’s why people buy it. People bought the Wii because

⏹️ ▶️ John it was crazy, waggly remote mixed with some software that made that crazy, waggly remote fun.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s it. All you gotta do is make something that people wanna buy. And if you said,

⏹️ ▶️ John okay, well, why don’t you just make software? All you gotta do is make software that people wanna buy. How many copies of

⏹️ ▶️ John software does Nintendo need to sell for iOS to make the kind of money they make even off of

⏹️ ▶️ John their crappy, failing Wii U and their so-so 3DS? 3DS games

⏹️ ▶️ John are like $30 a pop, Wii U games are like $60 a pop, and

⏹️ ▶️ John they gotta be making money on the Wii U consoles itself. Nintendo can’t come into iOS, put

⏹️ ▶️ John out $60 games, and expect- I mean, just do the revenue graphs, I’m like, well if I sell at $1,

⏹️ ▶️ John how many do I have to sell? If I sell at $60, we know how much I’ll sell compared to if I sell at $1. Does Nintendo have to start making

⏹️ ▶️ John freemium games? It’s a whole different market, you know? Never never mind what kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of games could you make on iOS and now you’re dependent on a different hardware vendor and you can’t innovate gameplay because

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re at the mercy of what kind of hardware Apple wants to put out and how well they’re gonna support your games and

⏹️ ▶️ John Whole category games can’t even exist without the physical controllers Oh, you just sell to people with physical controllers and if I

⏹️ ▶️ John could make a physical controller Now you’re selling to a fraction of a fraction of a market Anybody willing to buy a physical

⏹️ ▶️ John controller to play Nintendo games on their iOS device would also be willing to buy a 3ds

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know the television game consoles with a controller there they could just buy a Bluetooth controller and

⏹️ ▶️ John airplay their iOS device And you worry about the leg like there is no good way out for Nintendo in those areas

⏹️ ▶️ John I think Nintendo should pay no attention to the smartphone space because they can’t be a player

⏹️ ▶️ John there They’re never gonna have their own platform. They’re never gonna have their own OS if that becomes the price of doing business

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re doomed for now. It doesn’t it looks like they’re still a market for dedicated game consoles They should just make

⏹️ ▶️ John one that people want to buy Sounds easy. Yeah, I don’t know why they didn’t consult me before they made the Wii

⏹️ ▶️ John U. Wow. I would have told them. There’s a couple of articles, like, you know, the hindsight is 20-20 articles,

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like, I was at a game developer and they showed us the Wii U and I totally knew that they shouldn’t be making this because

⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware was too weak. You know, it’s easy to say that in retrospect, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they probably would have said the same thing about the Wii. Standard definition of game console, everyone else is going HD, you’re doomed. Well, they weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John so doomed there. But yeah, I think they could pull that off a second time and they didn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think part of the problem with that is that the Wii was really successful

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of this fad that it introduced.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it is totally not a fad. A fad is something that comes and goes quickly and has no lasting

⏹️ ▶️ John value. Motion control… I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would say that is… What you said, come and goes quickly and has no lasting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco value, I bet that is the pattern for the majority of Wii owners of how they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use their Wii.

⏹️ ▶️ John It lasted an entire generation. The Wii dominated the entire generation. And motion control is not going

⏹️ ▶️ John away. Every single modern console has motion control coming out the butt. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like saying, well, the Macintosh, because the Macintosh lost

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That sounds uncomfortable.

⏹️ ▶️ John The Macintosh lost to Windows because that GUI thing was just a fad. And yeah, now every modern computer has a GUI,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re not a Macintosh, so I guess that whole GUI thing was a fad. Motion control was not a fad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s not a fair assessment. I think because stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a GUI is, you use it and then you keep using it and it keeps being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco awesome. Whereas the Wii, almost everyone I’ve ever heard from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who has a Wii has said that they had the same problem where they got it, they played it, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco played the crap out of it for a couple of weeks or months and then they never turned it on again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then it eventually goes in the closet and then it eventually goes away.

⏹️ ▶️ John like a computer, it needs software. So if you got a Macintosh and then people just stopped making applications for it, and Doom wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John out for the Mac, and like all these other programs you wanted to play weren’t out for the Mac, you’re just like, well, I had a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John and I used it a lot, but then I’d played the few games that I had, and I’d used

⏹️ ▶️ John the software I had, but all the new applications were coming out for Windows. So I put the Mac in a closet, and I got a Windows machine, and I

⏹️ ▶️ John used their GUI apps. Like, it’s a platform. You do need software to be released for it. And making it standard

⏹️ ▶️ John definition didn’t help. And Nintendo’s relationship with third parties didn’t help. But eventually the only thing available on the

⏹️ ▶️ John Wii were terrible crappy shovelware ports of like ancient PC games or last gen

⏹️ ▶️ John console games. And all the new titles that people wanted to play weren’t available for the Wii at all. So what are you

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna do? Keep playing Wii Sports for eight years? Of course you’re not gonna. Of course it’s gonna go into the closet. It’s a platform, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But you can’t say that the motion control was a fad and it went away. And that’s why it’s because no one

⏹️ ▶️ John made new games for it. No one made new, exciting, popular games for it. Where were everyone else wanted to play? like

⏹️ ▶️ John Mass Effect and the new Halo games, and even if an exclusive, I was even multiplayer with Grand Theft Auto,

⏹️ ▶️ John Call of Duty, Modern Warfare, all these games came out, they’re available for PC, 360, and PS3. PC, 360, or

⏹️ ▶️ John PS3. Never the Wii, because the Wii can’t play because it was too weak.

⏹️ ▶️ John It just aged out. No one made new software for it. So what you’re saying is I was right.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’s not that the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco motion control was a fad. You’re saying like, oh, but- I didn’t say the motion control was a fad. I said the Wii was a fad. It’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John Wii is not a fad. The Wii was just a console that didn’t have good third-party support. The GameCube was similar.

⏹️ ▶️ John As the GameCube got older, third-party games came out for the other platforms and not for the GameCube.

⏹️ ▶️ John Nintendo was really bad about third-party support because it’s caught between, well, we can support our own platform

⏹️ ▶️ John with our first-party games, and, well, we kind of want third-party games to round out the platform, but we don’t really

⏹️ ▶️ John care if those guys make any money. And then people are like, well, screw you. We’re not going to make games for your platform anymore,

⏹️ ▶️ John unless you sell in huge numbers. And even when they sold in huge numbers, all they did was attract the vultures to say, I’ll make a stupid tying game

⏹️ ▶️ John for my movie and sell a Wii version just to get some free cash because there’s so many Wii’s out there in the world

⏹️ ▶️ John and then people would buy the crappy movie tying game for the Wii and the kids would play it and say this sucks and

⏹️ ▶️ John it was like it was like the 28 2600 the Atari where eventually everybody was making 2600 games

⏹️ ▶️ John and it just devalued the entire you know concept so the Wii as a

⏹️ ▶️ John product was a good idea and a good product the relationship with third parties was terrible and they didn’t support

⏹️ ▶️ John it and it just it fizzled out I mean any Any console can do that. If any of the other console makers

⏹️ ▶️ John had the same problem, if they put out hardware that was too weak to play modern games and didn’t have a good relationship with third parties, they

⏹️ ▶️ John would fizzle out and die too. If Nintendo had simply made a PlayStation 4 with a second screen

⏹️ ▶️ John on it and had Sony or Microsoft level of intelligence about third party support,

⏹️ ▶️ John the Wii U would be selling like hotcakes. Because who wouldn’t want a PS4 that can play the next Mario and Zelda game? Everybody would.

⏹️ ▶️ John You have your cake, you can eat it too. There’s no reason you have to choose between those two things, except for price.

⏹️ ▶️ John But Nintendo has always said, well, we want to keep it as cheap as possible, and we think that’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John work great, and it did with the Wii, kind of. But even that ran into their stupidity about third-party relationships.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the reason I brought up this thing inside of this big fire is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s always a strategic flaw in business if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t really recognize why you have been successful in the past or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the present because you know if you if you attribute present or past success

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the wrong factors then you’ll probably do the wrong things on your next project in your upcoming you know direction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so I think for Nintendo to say you know oh well the Wii sold really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really well and therefore we have to keep doing gimmicks like this. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a gimmick! Well hold on so this has kind of Nintendo’s MO

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the last few generations of consoles where you know it used to be in the olden days of like 8

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and 16-bit and even the N64 Nintendo was basically doing the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kinds of things as everyone else and in some ways they would do they would do things better and then they had these awesome

⏹️ ▶️ Marco games to carry them and and to really be the foundation of their business. The Wii

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was this new hardware gimmick that excuse me this new hardware method

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was very successful in the market briefly you know in that at least in that one generation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John for eight

⏹️ ▶️ John years yeah briefly for eight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John years well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay regardless it was very successful and I had this new hardware thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this new kind of thing the DS had these two screens that was very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco successful right but is the reason it was very successful because it had two screens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or because Nintendo made really good games and they happen to make the best portable game system and it happened to have two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco screens.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re right that they’re misattributing things, but it’s not that misattribution because the Wii sold

⏹️ ▶️ John in the amazing numbers it did because it had a novel input method, right? Their problem, here’s the Nintendo’s

⏹️ ▶️ John problem, is they competed with Sony and the original PlayStation 1 and Nintendo 64,

⏹️ ▶️ John that was kind of where the turning point was for them, and a little bit of the SNES as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they didn’t do as well as they thought they should. is if we have a great product, we have great games, why

⏹️ ▶️ John are we losing to Sony, this newcomer into the market? Why are we having trouble with Sega and their

⏹️ ▶️ John Genesis and stuff like that? We should be crushing them. We’re Nintendo. We should do great. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John GameCube really brought that to a head. Because the GameCube was just an amazing piece of hardware. It

⏹️ ▶️ John was the best console of that generation hardware-wise. And they’re like, we should really be killing

⏹️ ▶️ John these guys. We made this thing, and we came in last place. Why? Why don’t people

⏹️ ▶️ John want to buy our stuff? Aren’t our games good? And so when the Wii came around, they’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ John we keep failing. We need to do something different. And they look back at why they had failed and they said, I think we failed

⏹️ ▶️ John because we’re not giving people something different. We’re just trying to make the same thing as everyone else. And they said,

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s what we can do, but we’ll make something different. How about we use motion control? And they’re actually thinking about motion control for the GameCube

⏹️ ▶️ John as well. We’ll do motion control. And they couldn’t figure out why they kept losing. And they’re losing because they’re just obstinate

⏹️ ▶️ John about third party relationships with other Like, Sony won because it was nice to third parties,

⏹️ ▶️ John and Nintendo always wanted to screw them. Because Nintendo said, we sell our first party games, and you pay us through the nose

⏹️ ▶️ John for the privilege of being on our platform. And another company came in there and said, we won’t be such bastards to third

⏹️ ▶️ John parties. And Nintendo continues to refuse to believe that that’s why everyone is crushing you. It’s not because they make

⏹️ ▶️ John better hardware, it sure as hell not because they make better first party games, it’s because they’re not jerks to the third parties.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Nintendo doesn’t want to hear that. And unfortunately, the idea that…

⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s what the problem was. The problem was we didn’t make something that was interesting enough. We’re just doing the same thing as everyone else. Let’s do something

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting.” That worked for them. They said, Aha! See, that was it. It wasn’t all that stuff people were saying about us not having a

⏹️ ▶️ John good relationship with third parties. It was just because we wanted to give people something new. So when it came time to make the Wii U, they said, We gotta

⏹️ ▶️ John do that thing again where we make something new. And so they made something new, and it is new, and it is interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just not as interesting as motion control was coming from a previous world without motion control. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they kept having the weak hardware, and it fell on its face, because, you know, they

⏹️ ▶️ John continue not to realize that the reason they keep failing is because they don’t have good third-party resources. Again,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you could buy a Nintendo console and had all the modern games on it, all of the, you know, it had Grand Theft

⏹️ ▶️ John Auto, it had Call of Duty, it had everything, it looked great, it was competitive with everybody else. Any third-party game

⏹️ ▶️ John came out for the next eight years, you should be sure it will be on the new Nintendo console. It was just like the 360

⏹️ ▶️ John or the PS3. Sometimes on 360, sometimes on the PS3, it’s probably on the PC. Nintendo is not

⏹️ ▶️ John even in that conversation for multiple generations now. And if they can’t be in that conversation, the only people who are going

⏹️ ▶️ John to buy Nintendo console are people who just want it for the first party games. And it’s it’s they’re stupidly

⏹️ ▶️ John limiting themselves.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I almost wonder if there’s a parallel to Apple here in that Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting more and more anger directed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at them by third party developers. You know, we’ve we’ve gone through the ratings

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kerfuffle a thousand times and the review kerfuffle a thousand times.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I was fiddling with with certificates and provisioning profiles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey last night for fast text, and I wanted to throw myself off the roof of my house. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m definitely reaching here. But I can’t help but wonder

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if Nintendo and Apple both were or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are in a position where they had the ability to be smug and to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey act like the king of the world. And eventually what we’ve seen with Nintendo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that didn’t last. And the more friendly to third-party

⏹️ ▶️ Casey developers, upstarts, came around and ate their lunch. And I’m being overdramatic,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I can’t help but wonder if that’s the future for Apple. If if they don’t start improving

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things like iTunes, connect, improving things like developer relations and and they certainly have gotten a heck

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of a lot better. And Marco, you would know better than any of us how much better it’s gotten. But I don’t know. It just it strikes me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a vaguely parallel path.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. The difference with Nintendo is that their their heyday when they really were the king was back with the NES.

⏹️ ▶️ John That was so long ago. And maybe the SNES. And it’s just like it’s that carryover. It’s kind of more like Microsoft,

⏹️ ▶️ John where they weren’t as dominant as long as Microsoft was, but they were as dominant as Microsoft for a brief moment

⏹️ ▶️ John in time. And that’s their image of themselves. And even a change of CEOs,

⏹️ ▶️ John like the change of CEOs, the old guy Yamauchi got pulled back. And like, finally, now we’ll get someone who realizes they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John the king of the world anymore. And the new guy did the Wii, which looks like, hey, new guy comes in. It’s kind of like the return to

⏹️ ▶️ John see job. New guy comes in and suddenly Nintendo is back on top of the console heat. But again, they were on top

⏹️ ▶️ John like they didn’t recognize their previous problems, they just happened to find something else that would give them

⏹️ ▶️ John a turbo boost above everyone else. But they kept all the same old attitudes, like the expectation that you can make a new

⏹️ ▶️ John console and do it just like the Wii again, and think that everything will work out fine, because

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll just be that much more amazing than everyone else. Like, it’s, it’s like Microsoft thinking that

⏹️ ▶️ John for so long, but we’re Microsoft, when we make a tablet, people will buy it. And when we make a phone OS, people will buy it. And

⏹️ ▶️ John Windows Phone will soon be the dominant phone platform or will be in second strong second place or whatever. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John you just get that image in your head of like, we’re Microsoft, we’re the king of everything. Obviously, anything we do is going to be successful.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it takes repeated failures to get through your corporate head that actually no,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not, you’re not going to automatically win. You can’t, you can’t do that. You have to, you know, developer tools, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it is kind of like, uh, it’s more like Apple did it to, to the other developers

⏹️ ▶️ John with phone. It was like, if you look at Apple’s developer tools for writing apps for iOS. Yeah, we may complain

⏹️ ▶️ John about them and everything, but compare it to phone development before the iPhone. Like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John using Xcode to write applications for iOS is so far beyond using whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John SDK to write Nokia phones, Nokia apps or whatever. It’s like night and day. And so no

⏹️ ▶️ John wonder suddenly Apple has tons of third party support for applications and every other phone platform just goes

⏹️ ▶️ John away. At this point, Nintendo is not that bad compared to their competitors,

⏹️ ▶️ John but Nintendo’s strength is not making developer tools or middleware or other things. Not that

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s really Sony’s or Microsoft’s strength either, but Sony and Microsoft have gotten better at it faster than Nintendo.

⏹️ ▶️ John Same thing with online, Xbox Live and the PlayStation Network. Again, they’re not great at it, but Nintendo is terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so it’s kind of like Nintendo was the king a long time ago and it does everything worse than all of its competitors

⏹️ ▶️ John now except make fun games. And that stuff is coming home to roost.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think some part of it also is, you know, back in the 8 and 16 bit era, I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually even 32 slash 64 era, the first one, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back then the best games for a platform, the both the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco critically acclaimed ones and the ones that would sell the most were usually first party games by the platform

⏹️ ▶️ Marco vendor and that is no longer the case these days as far as I know. It seems like these days,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the big blockbuster games are made by third parties who have really no reason, unless they have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of big pricey business deal, they really have no reason to limit themselves to just one of the consoles.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it becomes, you know, like if you want to play the latest Call of Duty or the latest Madden Football, you can do it on anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s in their best interest to put out the games for all the consoles, and so it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot less of an advantage to have the strong first party library as it used to be, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most of the games people are buying and getting excited about are available on all the platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s so expensive now to make a AAA title that people can’t afford to have exclusives. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re going to be EA or something, and you’re going to make Madden, and someone wants you to make

⏹️ ▶️ John an exclusive to their platform, EA is going to be like, do you realize how much money you’d have to pay us to do that? Because

⏹️ ▶️ John in a sort of even horse race between one, you know, between two or three competitors, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, are you going to pay for all the copies that we could have sold on the Xbox? you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John if Sony wants it to be exclusive, or pick any game like that. Like, you can’t afford to pay them. Like, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why these people buy studios. Like, if Microsoft buys Bungie, well, now we don’t have to pay you to make Halo exclusive to the Xbox.

⏹️ ▶️ John We bought your whole company. Make it for the Xbox only, right? And even that Bungie found a way to wriggle its way

⏹️ ▶️ John out so its next game could be multi-platform. It’s just so expensive. It’s the only people who can afford

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a game exclusive to a platform are like, gaming studios that are going

⏹️ ▶️ John down the tubes and need tons of money, and they’ll take whatever cash payout they can to go exclusive. Or, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, first parties. I don’t know if there was ever a heyday where the first party games are always the best. I guess maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John in the NES days. I mean, Nintendo’s always, its first party games have always been, you know, among the best on any platform

⏹️ ▶️ John anywhere. So that’s an easy one. Sega, I guess they had Sonic in the Genesis days, but was that really

⏹️ ▶️ John the best games? Nintendo’s the only one who has been so dumb. Sega

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had a lot of, I was a Sega guy back then, they had a lot of really good games in the 8 and 16-bit era.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even I would even say for the Saturn you know which didn’t sell well Well, yeah, there’s the only they were the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only games for this right. Yes, true even for that generation You know I think Sega had the best Saturn games I think I think Nintendo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had by far the best at 64 games

⏹️ ▶️ John PlayStation changed that though like that was their deal like we think of the first party PlayStation games like crash bandicoot

⏹️ ▶️ John You know yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well the first the first the ps1 games really were not that great the ps1 one mainly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco succeeded because the Saturn was a bomb. I mean the Saturn kind of made space

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for it and the N64 wasn’t out yet. And it used to use cartridges when it came out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. Although I will stand by that being a good decision actually. Looking at like looking back at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the load times and everything like. Well it was really bad

⏹️ ▶️ John decision for Nintendo. It had advantages but like the reason Nintendo did it was because A

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re stubborn and B they people would pay Nintendo to make their cartridges. If you wanted

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a game for N64, like the other stuff, you’d have to pay Nintendo

⏹️ ▶️ John to make your cartridges for you. And Nintendo charged profit on that. It was like free money.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why would we let you make a 10-cent CD when we can charge you for these cartridges?

⏹️ ▶️ John Right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But my point is, in this new era of most of the big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco popular games are multi-platform, Nintendo will always lose that battle because they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the cutting-edge hardware and ecosystem game. Like they’re not in that game at all. And so they’re going to keep losing.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they could be though, like with the GameCube proves that they could be because the GameCube hardware wise was

⏹️ ▶️ John more than a match for its competitors. Like there’s no reason that they can’t be because they don’t make you know, they pay

⏹️ ▶️ John ATI and IBM or whoever makes you know, they like look at the PS4 or the Xbox One is an AM.

⏹️ ▶️ John They both have AMD CPUs with you know, like they could Nintendo can go to the same vendors just

⏹️ ▶️ John like they did with the GameCube. You know, the GameCube is even extreme because IBM and ATI

⏹️ ▶️ John were also in the Xbox 360 so it was like you know it was it was

⏹️ ▶️ John right there like they were all using the same vendors you don’t have to make this stuff yourself they just chose not

⏹️ ▶️ John to compete in that it’s not there’s not something structural about Nintendo that prevents them from making a console that can host all

⏹️ ▶️ John the modern games it’s a business choice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well I don’t know it’s because it isn’t just about the hardware anymore now it’s about these online services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco integration with cable boxes and stuff like that Like it’s all these things that Nintendo really has never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shown any interest in doing

⏹️ ▶️ John Sony is terrible at that too And they’re been slowly like Microsoft’s the only company that knew anything about online

⏹️ ▶️ John because like, you know, they’re a PC company They know about platforms. They know about networking stuff like that Sony didn’t know anything

⏹️ ▶️ John about that Sony stuff sucked and they slowly learned and Nintendo stuff Has always sucked continues to

⏹️ ▶️ John suck. It sucks slightly more than Sony but like it’s it’s a it’s not outside

⏹️ ▶️ John I think this is something that Nintendo can do Nintendo can make online games they have. Nintendo can make

⏹️ ▶️ John like social media lobby type things, they have done that. They just do it badly. Sony

⏹️ ▶️ John also does it badly, Microsoft does it less badly, but there’s nobody who’s like, I guess maybe Microsoft is

⏹️ ▶️ John out ahead of both of the other ones, but Sony’s pretty crappy at that too. So like, the bar is low, I feel like they

⏹️ ▶️ John could cross that hurdle, and again, you have, like now it may be a little bit too late, but they had so many years, like Xbox

⏹️ ▶️ John Live came out so many years ago, Nintendo, if they got their head out of their butt, would have said, alright, we suck

⏹️ ▶️ John at this now, let’s get good at it slowly over many years. This is what Sony did. Sony is still terrible at it. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they, you know, they lost all those passwords and their service is not as good as Xbox Live. And when the PS4 came

⏹️ ▶️ John out, you know, it has integration with streaming and the headset support and stuff like that. I think they learned

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s possible. And Nintendo is just much slower learner and or too stubborn

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. But I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, what else do we want to talk about? Should we should we breach the net neutrality topic because this could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey go for hours. Even I have a lot to say about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s a lot there. I think any any loss of net neutrality is really bad and really,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a likely disaster for our industry and many others. But I legally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know enough about what just happened. I don’t have a good legal understanding of it and I haven’t done all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reading on it. I still have to read Neil A. Patel’s article on it. So I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really have a lot to say on that right now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I just wanted to briefly add and then John, I’ll ask for your two cents. Somebody tweeted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’ll put a link in the show notes and in the chat and this may not be the original

⏹️ ▶️ Casey instance of it. Somebody tweeted a really interesting graphic that basically said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, if you want really fast Netflix, that’s an additional $10 a month. And if you want really fast,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey blah, blah, blah, that’s an additional $15 a month. And it was, it was extremely interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a really ominous sign of what net neutrality could mean, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the loss of net neutrality could mean for the future. And it was a really clever way to hammer at home

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that if not all traffic is created equal, that could lead to some very bad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things. And it’s very frightening. And just like you said, Marco, it’s very, very potentially dangerous for the industry.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, I thought the Fred Wilson post was really good too. Fred Wilson is, in case you don’t know him, he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big investor. I actually know him. He’s a really nice guy. And his blog is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because he is a VC. Anyway, he had this great post on it, basically just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like these scenarios of these theoretical future investor meetings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where he’s meeting some young startup founder who wants to get some funding. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re describing like, Oh, well, I had this great idea for this new music startup where this is like a new streaming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco service is going to have these differences from other streaming services. And he’s like, Sorry, we can’t take that because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple and RDO and Spotify and Beats have all paid all the telcos to get their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco transfer to not count towards your your data allotment and you won’t have that power or money, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no one’s going to buy your service because it’s going to count against their data. So we’re not going to fund you.” That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to happen. That kind of thing where it’s not going to affect everything. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re running text and transmitting text all around, it’s probably not going to be big enough to matter or get throttled like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. But you don’t know. It dramatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco affects any kind of large transfers. Definitely would affect podcasts, no question about it. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that hits home for me, certainly. And it should for you if you’re listening. And so there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that aspect. There’s also one thing I liked a lot was Matt Drance’s piece

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Apple Outsider, where he also not only does he link to all these other good ones, but he also says, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, there’s also a problem of privacy where now, like, yeah, right now your ISP can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco look at everything passing through and where it’s going, but there’s not really much of a reason for them to. There’s no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco business case for it. So they probably aren’t and generally they don’t really have motivation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do that. But with this, they would have to look at everything you’re doing, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they would have business reasons to do it. And so there’s massive privacy implications for it as well. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s all these problems with what a lack of net neutrality will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cause. And the arguments about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco free markets and everything else, and deregulations, benefits in some cases, don’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apply because there’s not a lot of competition in most broadband markets. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mobile, the rules are different. And again, I don’t know enough about this to really talk at length, but the rules are different for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mobile networks. And you could look at that and say, well, mobile is competition for the broadband, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is. But as long as mobile data caps can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be burned up with watching Netflix for an hour, I don’t think we’re in the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco league here. And so home broadband still has a big role for a lot of people. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as the cable companies and phone companies and these home broadband companies, as they add things like phone service

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to them and their own on-demand video, and as people start cutting cable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco service to say, oh, well, I don’t need to pay for your TV service because I just buy everything online,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco those ISPs are going to have more and more really big business reasons to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco evil crap like this, to do things like throttle Netflix, throttle Skype, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these, all these, you know, I mean, look at what happened with Vonage forever ago. That was one of these first cases.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re going to have reasons to do all this stuff, big business reasons, and so you know they’re going to do it. It’s not like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have morals and are sitting around saying, oh yeah, you know, oh yeah, we’re Verizon, we’re Comcast, we’re just going to be nice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to our customers. no, they’re gonna screw you at every chance you possibly get. I mean, come

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on, these companies, they have it in their DNA to be complete to everybody. That’s every company, that’s how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco companies work. That’s, you know, that’s if there’s a business case to do some big thing, they’re gonna do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it would be foolish to think that if these companies were permitted to do stuff like this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they wouldn’t do it. Of course, they’re gonna do it. And where are you you going to turn? There’s nowhere to go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Chances are, most people have at most two options

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for their broadband at home. Usually, you can choose between one cable company and one DSL company in the US.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think in the rest of the world, some places are better, some places are worse. I think overall, it’s not that much better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on average. It might even be worse. Yeah, generally speaking, you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco between one and two broadband companies to choose from in the US. And so, you know, if,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in most places, those one or two are like the same one or two, like, there’s not that many ISPs, there’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco five or six big ones in the whole country, maybe. And, you know, so it doesn’t take much, like if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Comcast or Verizon say, okay, we’re gonna, you know, we’re not doing this thing, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to affect like, you know, a quarter of the country or something. It’s a big number. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a big deal and we need regulation. The role of government regulation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is where the market can’t do the right thing for whatever reason, where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s dysfunctional or impossible or completely impractical for the market to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do the things that are best for the people, best for the overall industry. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when government regulation is most needed. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s definitely the case with broadband. There is no competition, and we need the government regulation,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s not happening, and that’s really scary.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the problem with net neutrality, and I’ve experienced this problem myself with trying to explain

⏹️ ▶️ John it to my mother, and for all the people who are going to complain that I always use my mother as an example, and that’s insulting

⏹️ ▶️ John because who’s to say that mothers don’t know stuff about technology? I’m using my mother as an example in this case and in many other cases because

⏹️ ▶️ John she’s the one of my parents who is most interested in and knowledgeable about technology. So she’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the one who’s actually willing to entertain the discussion with me about net neutrality. Not because she’s less competent.

⏹️ ▶️ John So let’s get the mother as a… it’s not a hypothetical, this is my actual mother and I actually explained it

⏹️ ▶️ John to her and that’s the reason I explained it to her and not my father because my father doesn’t care, doesn’t know about it, doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John give a crap about this. Anyway, I try to explain net neutrality to her and it’s difficult and that image that

⏹️ ▶️ John Casey was talking about, but it showed the big price sheet of like, so you want internet access, well

⏹️ ▶️ John for an extra five bucks you get Netflix, for an extra ten bucks and my impression was not that you get faster Netflix. It’s like, Oh, so you want

⏹️ ▶️ John Netflix with your internet? That’ll be five extra dollars. Oh, so you want to have, you know, HBO go with it? That’ll be 10 extra

⏹️ ▶️ John dollars. Oh, you want to go on Facebook, that’ll be 12 extra dollars. And it’s made to look just like it does when you buy cable.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now, you want cable TV, okay, well, here’s the base price. If you want ESPN, it’ll be this price. And if you want HBO, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John part of our premium package. That’s $12. It’s like buying a BMW, you know, you got to get the package. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the problem with that image as terrifying as it is to nerds, is it to a regular person, you’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, that’s already how I buy TV. And that’s not that bad. We’re like, No, it’s terrible when you buy TV, don’t you understand? And

⏹️ ▶️ John with the television, it’s terrible, in some ways, but on the other hand, it also subsidizes a lot of channels.

⏹️ ▶️ John So there are good things about bundling and bad things. But in general, if you go from a situation

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s different, because those are services that are being bundled together in a package

⏹️ ▶️ John of things that you have to pay for, and all those things you have to pay for, this is basically taking a wire and saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re only going to let certain, you know, it’s a negative instead of a positive, only let certain things through it. Oh, so you want to let Netflix trafficking,

⏹️ ▶️ John pay us this amount of money. And now we’ll let Netflix traffic go through your house. That’s not an internet service provider

⏹️ ▶️ John anymore. That’s I don’t know what that is. But that’s not, that’s not someone providing you access to the internet. That’s someone preventing

⏹️ ▶️ John you from having access to the internet, to varying degrees based on how much you’re going to pay them or how much they’re going to pay

⏹️ ▶️ John the companies or whatever. And the problem with that image, I think is it looks too familiar to people. And

⏹️ ▶️ John it won’t be terrifying to people because they don’t realize the implications. And this is the difficulty I have trying to explain

⏹️ ▶️ John net neutrality to my mother or to anyone else is that it’s very difficult to impart

⏹️ ▶️ John on them, like the thing that we all know in our gut, that like, this is the end of the internet as we know it, if you don’t have an internet

⏹️ ▶️ John interconnected network of computers that can all talk to each other, but instead have an interconnected

⏹️ ▶️ John series of toll booths that you have to pay money for, for information to get one person, the other that defeats the entire purpose

⏹️ ▶️ John of the internet. And, you know, ISPs don’t want to be dumb pipes and we all want them to be dumb pipes and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the constant tension that’s there between us and them and the role of government regulation

⏹️ ▶️ John like in any free market type system. It’s not like when companies

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t do the right thing. It’s the incentives are aligned for companies to make

⏹️ ▶️ John to maximize their profits. And if those are the only incentives in the system, then yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John the companies will go off and do those things that will cause incredible damage in the long run because that

⏹️ ▶️ John will make them the most profits. they’ll become a monopoly, so we have anti-monopoly laws. And

⏹️ ▶️ John if they will end net neutrality because it will make them more money, we need a counterbalance to that. And the counterbalance

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t be other private market companies. Like that’s something someone said to me on Twitter. Well, if ISPs do this,

⏹️ ▶️ John won’t other net neutral ISPs crop up to compete with them? That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John an interesting fantasy scenario. But unfortunately, with the exception of wireless, all of

⏹️ ▶️ John the wires and fiber optic cables going to people’s houses is the barrier to entry, to saying, OK, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John Comcast is terrible, and Verizon is terrible, and they’re all net neutral anymore, I’m going to start my

⏹️ ▶️ John own ISP. Great, well, let me know when you run wires to everybody’s house in the United States. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a significant barrier to entry. Or even for wireless, let me know when you paid for all the spectrum

⏹️ ▶️ John you plan to use. And again, the regulations are different about divvying up spectrum between people and common carrier

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. And the same thing with the wires. There’s some regulations in this area already. But you can’t rely on the private

⏹️ ▶️ John market not to totally get away, totally remove net neutrality,

⏹️ ▶️ John because it will make them more money. And if there are companies, they’re trying to make more money. They’re not trying to be magnanimous or

⏹️ ▶️ John advance civilization. They’re trying to make more profit. So there needs to be a counterbalance to that. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why all the nerds are hoping the government will fulfill its role as being a counterbalance to private industry, to prevent private

⏹️ ▶️ John industry from doing what it does. Those machines are aligned in a certain way to

⏹️ ▶️ John make money. And we should let them run off and do that right up to the point where they start causing damage. there needs to be a counterbalance.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s just, it’s too esoteric and weird and nerdy. And even

⏹️ ▶️ John if it slowly happens, like it would just happen in pieces one at a time. And everyone who was

⏹️ ▶️ John happening to it would just simply accept it as the way things are until two generations from now, the internet could be dead

⏹️ ▶️ John as we know it. And no one would care. And no one would ever put up a fuss. It’s one of those types of things, like a slow moving

⏹️ ▶️ John type of disaster where you have to kind of be a little bit chicken little and say the sky is falling to get people’s attention. And

⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise, this terrible thing will slowly happen to them, and they’ll accept it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like they won’t even wake up one day and be in a dystopia. They’ll just be like, well, it’s just the way things are. It’s just the way things have always

⏹️ ▶️ John been. Oh, well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I’m glad we don’t have much to say about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, we’ll have to talk about some other time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, we weren’t talking about the events. We’re just talking about net neutrality in general as a concept. And that’s, I think, that

⏹️ ▶️ John I think is enough, you know, instead of talking about what happened in this court case or what, how is the battle going for net

⏹️ ▶️ John neutrality, just the concept of net neutrality. except that one computer can talk to another computer and send

⏹️ ▶️ John data through it. And they all they all pay for Internet access to get access to the Internet.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s undifferentiated. And the ones and zeros flow through the tubes like that

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t sound like much. But if you take that away and turn it into some crazy tollbooth thing, it just destroys the whole endeavor.

⏹️ ▶️ John It destroys every part of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And even as someone who doesn’t directly make my living on the Internet in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey same that say Marco does. Obviously, I still indirectly make my living on the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey internet because the consulting that I do in my day job is all web-based. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even despite being slightly removed from all this, it absolutely scares me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It petrifies me, the thought of losing net neutrality. And net neutrality was the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great equalizer that, you know, there’s no reason that that Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Casey couldn’t make a read later service or that Marco and David couldn’t make a new blogging

⏹️ ▶️ Casey engine because they had the same right to the same pipes as everyone else did. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to take that away, that’s scary. We’re in such a wonderful time right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now where anyone in a – well, I guess you could argue anyone in a garage could always do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something incredible, but it’s so much easier now. I mean, hey, look at the three of us, three people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in three converted bedrooms and three houses across the eastern United States are able to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reach tens of thousands of people on a weekly basis, and that’s really powerful and really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey incredible, and we’re very lucky for that, the three of us most especially, but I like to thank all of our listeners

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as well. And just like Marco alluded to earlier, imagine if we had to subsidize,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the three of us had to subsidize getting our podcasts to our listeners. You think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ads are bad now, my goodness, the show would be 80% ads if that were the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco case.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well and the funny thing is like we already pay for that like the the cable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco companies and stuff wanting Wanting payments from like Verizon and goo or from like you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Google and Apple and Netflix stuff like that Google and Apple Netflix are already paying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to upload that data like they’re already paying for their data centers to have connectivity to all the big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco backbones and Like we already pay for the bandwidth for this show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and And thank God Libsyn is unlimited because if Libsyn wasn’t unlimited, this show would cost like a thousand dollars a month in bandwidth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco alone. And, you know, we already pay for that. Everyone already pays for their upstream bandwidth.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the cable companies don’t get that money directly. You know, they are offering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco access to these big backbones. And I don’t, unfortunately, know the details of how all of that works and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way peering agreements work and who pays who and all the cases and everything. But, you know, they didn’t build that infrastructure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have parts of it. They have their own infrastructure to their home. or to the home, but like, they’re offering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you this product that’s out there that everyone else is already paying to be into. And they want they want money to like they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want they want a cut to even though, you know, no one’s ever had to pay for that before,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get to that final that last mile.

⏹️ ▶️ John The thing is, like data is not water, like there’s not a volume of water going through pipes

⏹️ ▶️ John like well, a certain volume water goes through our pipes, and they wear down our pipes and we have maintenance for our valves in the

⏹️ ▶️ John pipes. And there is telecom equipment that you have to have. But at a certain point,

⏹️ ▶️ John once you have the equipment set up, the amount of data going through it, if it’s anything less than 100% or 90% of the capacity, or if you’re using 1%

⏹️ ▶️ John of the capacity of the hardware, that’s just wasted. It’s not as if, well, there’ll be less wear and tear on our routers now that there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John less traffic on them. I mean, I guess someone’s going to write in and say, well, the heat generated by a fully stressed router,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know what I mean? But it’s not the same as paying

⏹️ ▶️ John for cars going over roads. Cars destroy roads as they go over them, right? And it’s not water through

⏹️ ▶️ John a pipe. Like at a certain point, you would like it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John marginal cost of putting extra data, which is why they have these peering agreements. It’s like, well, otherwise

⏹️ ▶️ John this bandwidth would just be idle. So I’ll pay you and you’ll pay me and it’ll all work out. And there’s all this strange

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of make believe money changing hands or peering group. It’s just to make the entire internet work because

⏹️ ▶️ John the data has to change hands. It has to go from one place to the other. And everyone is always jockeying for position of who can make a little bit more money off

⏹️ ▶️ John of this. But in the end, what we just want it to be is the Internet, this conceptual

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, kind of like iCloud, that is just giant umbrella term for this huge networks of computers and hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John and wires and software that is run by a giant conglomeration of people all trying to make this one big

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of emergent living entity called the Internet work where any computer can talk to any other computer if it has his IP address.

⏹️ ▶️ John IPv6 will be a topic for another show and that’s the system

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re trying to preserve here and at every turn like companies are trying to say, yeah, but

⏹️ ▶️ John we can make more money if X, Y, and Z. And it’s terrible. And like the worst argument of hair band is, is like the free market thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like government regulation is bad. You’re stifling competition and blah, blah, blah. And Marco, uh,

⏹️ ▶️ John talked about it before. The, the, uh, the net neutral internet has been the largest driver

⏹️ ▶️ John of free market, like capitalism and economic growth that the world has ever seen. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, two guys start Tumblr and it makes how many, what is it? How many billion dollars did Yahoo

⏹️ ▶️ John pay for it or whatever? Like, if you don’t have a net neutral internet and can’t let two guys, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it is, if you take that away and say, well, now only the big guys can, like, you have destroyed

⏹️ ▶️ John so much more of the economy. Like, yes, you made the ISPs get richer. The price has been like

⏹️ ▶️ John a huge amount of innovation and market value that you’ve totally destroyed by not making

⏹️ ▶️ John it easy to enter this market. Like, it’s, it’s so incredibly short sighted to people, for people to say government

⏹️ ▶️ John regulation is always bad. free market is better because the internet is the free market. It is the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that has enabled more businesses to spring into existence, to add value to the economy,

⏹️ ▶️ John to employ people than any other invention in the entire world. And to destroy that just so ISPs can make more

⏹️ ▶️ John money, it’s so insane. And again, this entire concept and all this is so hard to explain to

⏹️ ▶️ John people who don’t know or care about it, which is why I fear every day that we will never have sane in laws in this area because

⏹️ ▶️ John no one understands the issues involved. No lawmakers do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you look at the history of actions taken by the FCC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the last 15, 20 years, there’s not a lot of things in there that give you a lot of confidence they’re going to do the right thing here. No.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s terrible. It’s too nuanced and esoteric. And

⏹️ ▶️ John even when I say like Lawrence Lessig up there and other people who are trying to explain it, do such a good job explaining them like

⏹️ ▶️ John surely now you must understand it he did such a good job of explaining that and like nope still don’t get it i need

⏹️ ▶️ John uh campaign donations from comcast i’m screwing everybody

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s miserable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well with that let’s wrap it up for the week thanks a lot to our three sponsors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco harvest and fracture and we will see you next week

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him,

⏹️ ▶️ John cause it was accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Cuz it was accidental It was accidental And you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at ATP FM

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter You can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at CAS EYL

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ISS so that’s Casey list and a ICO a RM

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Auntie Marco Harmon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco SIR Yeah, so I ended us on a

⏹️ ▶️ John sour note, sorry about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Any discussion of technology and politics is going to be sad. Yeah, that’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, it’s so painful. You want to talk about the iPad Pro at all? after

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John show. Save

⏹️ ▶️ John that for another show because I think it’s worth being an

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco actual

⏹️ ▶️ Marco topic. Well unfortunately the prompt kind of beat us to it and they did a better job of it. Did you hear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Federico Faticci’s discussion about this with I think it was just Mike that week

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the prompt I think last week or two weeks ago. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last

⏹️ ▶️ John week. I’m still in the middle of the giant iPhone keynote episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s good. I’m kind of mad that we didn’t think of doing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey you know. Oh I know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me too. It’s so good.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think I’d want to record that episode but I’ll listen to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly well that’s one of those things like when they record, when they put that out there I saw that and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was in my list and I was skeptical I was like man I gotta listen to a two-hour

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plus podcast come on I heard the iPhone keynote you know like I watched it like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t need to watch this or listen to this and I listened to it and it was so good and when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it ended I was like oh that’s it? Like that’s that’s when you know that you don’t need to worry about cutting your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco show any shorter. Like, if people are going to listen to it and say, wow, that’s—I’m kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of upset there’s not more of that, even after, you know, two hours and ten minutes or whatever it was. That’s really good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they hit it out of the park with that. That was so good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey MAX WELLS Yeah, the show was good in general—or really good in general, but god, that episode was so annoyingly good, and I’m really jealous,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m bitter it wasn’t us. STEPHEN

⏹️ ▶️ Marco WELLS Well, because what was good about it was that they didn’t just go through the Apple keynote and say, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here’s what happened, and then this happened. they gave really good context of what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the situation was at that time and right before that time, and why some of these things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were so groundbreaking. And a lot of that stuff I had forgotten about, you know, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why some of that stuff was so impressive, how, you know, how the room reacted to seeing, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco scrolling a table view for the first time by touch. Like, that was a big reaction. And And you think about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, why that was a big reaction? Because of what we had before the iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it was really good. It was, the context they provided was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, very good and made it extremely listenable and very interesting and very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco upsetting when it ended. Even if you’ve heard the iPhone keynote a million times before, it’s still worth it.

⏹️ ▶️ John They need more old people on the show though, because their history, a lot of them, their history of watching Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John had started around the time of the iPhone. That wasn’t Apple’s first keynote. They’d kind of been doing

⏹️ ▶️ John this whole keynote thing for a while since then. So as always, I wanted an old person like me on the show to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco say,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, you know, when they introduced the iMac, it was on a pedestal.

⏹️ ▶️ John G4 Cube came up from the floor. Phil Schiller had to jump onto an airbag.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s real power. What other reference did none of you will get?

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, it’s fine. I just started listening to Marco on Unprofessional realizing that

⏹️ ▶️ John realizing the the depths of his his his pop culture lack of knowledge.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sorry. It’s alright.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I think Casey

⏹️ ▶️ John would say that. I don’t know what Casey’s excuse is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, why does Marco have an excuse?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, he’s unique. Maybe you have proximity to Marco has prevented you from

⏹️ ▶️ John engaging in the culture of producing entertainment?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t know. I just, I don’t, I feel like I watch a crud-loaded TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and apparently I don’t watch any or I just watch the wrong TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you watching NCIS with the senior citizens?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, but I did watch CSI for a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, well, you’re getting close. I was close. Enhance.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’m zooming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. Rotate it around. Enhance again. Look, a license

⏹️ ▶️ John fleet if Casey was born 20 years early he’d be watching Matlock

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re such a jerk well you’re probably right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the reason I brought up the prompt and the iPad Pro they had a good discussion last week

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you know Federico Vatici brought up the really good point is he’s he’s like the iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like he is the iPad Pro user he might be the only one I don’t know maybe him and dr. Drang

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no he I don’t think he even used one. Anyway, the reason why, so the rumors are that Apple’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make a larger iPad, maybe 12.9 inches-ish,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and this will be a quote, iPad Pro of some sort. And the rumors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are all really confused and inconsistent as to whether this is going to also be a convertible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook Air with a keyboard, you know, an optional keyboard, one that would fold back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a convertible tablet or whether it would even run OS X or iOS, whether it will have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an Intel or an ARM processor, whether it has an ARM processor that runs OS X, who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so the problem with all these rumors is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, and maybe the iOS thing is more interesting, but the problem is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the size of the iPad is not really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s holding it back for most types of quote pro uses whatever that means with that’s a whole discussion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what that even might mean. The size is not holding it back. There are uses of the iPad where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people want a bigger size. I had asked on Twitter a couple of weeks ago when this rumor first came out like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know what what would a bigger iPad even solve? You know what who’s really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco asking for that? And the most common responses were either nobody I like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my mini or it was of course you know a bunch of geeks follow me so it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was that mostly but it was also a lot of people who do music production in particular said they would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love a lot more screen space and so there’s a there’s a few other you know verticals like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you know more screen space would be nice on the iPad and would be worth the extra

⏹️ ▶️ Marco size but for the most part I certainly don’t think it’s mass-market and the the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem is that the size of the screen is not holding back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pro usage what’s holding back for usage and this is what they were talking about on the prompt is iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the the structure and the restrictions of iOS and this is not an easy problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to solve this is like the multitasking system is really extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rudimentary in iOS and very limited document models and file storage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and sharing data between applications and and all that stuff is extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco primitive on iOS and it’s just so limited. That’s really most of the problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if you’re going to make a quote pro iOS device, iOS itself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needs major changes, and that’s not going to happen quickly or easily. And many of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco those changes would actually make iOS worse at its core functions. And so they probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco aren’t like, I’m guessing that this kind of pro iOS is probably not really happening. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think the iPad Pro, the Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco super compact Mac, is the MacBook Air. Or super compact Apple device. I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s the MacBook Air. I think, and we’ve ranted about this before, which I got some flack for, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually on the prompt, it’s funny, on the prompt Federico was arguing with a point

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I didn’t make, and he clarified that at the very beginning, but most listeners I think missed that. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so they were telling me, oh, he was ripping you apart on the prompt, he actually wasn’t. He actually agreed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with most of what I said, I think. But anyway, you know, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re hitting these massive barriers with the iPad and having to jump through all these different hoops of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bouncing between ten different apps and these weird URL schemes that are kind of hacked together and trying to share data

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in weird methods because you can’t share it directly, if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco jumping through all these hoops and doing all these weird hacks, maybe a Mac is really the better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solution for you. And for pro work, if what you want to do does not fit comfortably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in an iPad, an 11-inch MacBook Air is really not that much bigger. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not that much more money than a reasonably well-equipped iPad. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it will last longer, probably. I think the border

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is if you are needing to use a keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the iPad frequently, if you’re buying a hardware keyboard and using it frequently,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re probably going to be better served by a Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John See, I wanted to save this for a regular show, but no.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our topic list is so long. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John knew

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this would be quick. I figured I’d burn it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I actually have a quick thing to say about it, because I think I’ll Simpsons did it again and say that

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m pretty sure I’m the first person who I recall like I didn’t hear anyone else say

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad Pro when I talked about a hypercurve episode years ago. I don’t remember how it came

⏹️ ▶️ John up, but I mentioned that I’m very interested in a larger, more powerful iPad. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John remember if I said iPad Pro. I probably did because that’s the obvious name for it. Years and years ago, basically

⏹️ ▶️ John as soon as the first iPad came out, way well before there was a mini, I wanted a bigger, more powerful

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad, an iPad Pro. And I said, that’s not going to happen anytime soon. And

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco’s question on Twitter reminded me of this, because he was like, who the hell’s asking for a bigger iPad? Because

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco’s old now, and he had forgotten, or not listened to that episode of Hypercritical where I had asked for it. I’m asking for a bigger iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. And the reason I’m asking, and I’m also not a mini user, but anyway, the reason I keep thinking about an

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad Pro, and the reason I was thinking about an iPad Pro all those years ago and continue to, it’s very simple. And it has nothing to

⏹️ ▶️ John do with these rumors, which, as many people point out, could just be the new 12-inch MacBook Air form

⏹️ ▶️ John factor, whatever. You can’t, I love screen size rumors. Like Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John is ordering screens of X size, therefore, and then every product they could possibly fit that screen in it. You know, like it’s the new,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the new retina Mac Pro. They’re going to put seven of those screens together. Anyway, ignoring like

⏹️ ▶️ John that, why do we care about an iPad Pro? Why do I think this iPad Pro is the thing? And it’s very,

⏹️ ▶️ John very simple. iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is a better

⏹️ ▶️ John user experience than the Mac for most people. I think everyone would agree on that, which probably means that iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John or something like iOS is the future of computing. And if iOS is the future of computing or something like it,

⏹️ ▶️ John that means that anything we can do on our Mac today will want to do on something that’s more

⏹️ ▶️ John like iOS in the future. And that will mean that iOS devices need to get bigger and more powerful. Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware. Yes, also the software. It’s a simple logical progression. You’re going to want to do

⏹️ ▶️ John more stuff with iOS devices because iOS is the future. iOS devices are going to have to get both bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John and smaller, probably not much smaller than they are now. They’re going to have to get bigger and more powerful. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not all probably, but some of the things we do on our Mac that we can’t do on iPads today, we

⏹️ ▶️ John will have to be able to do on iPads, because they’re the future. So they’re gonna have to get bigger, they’re gonna have to get more powerful, and yes, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna have to get more capable. And that’s it. That’s- that’s the calculus. You don’t have to say they’re gonna come out now, or this year, or next year,

⏹️ ▶️ John or they can’t come out before- until software changes. Of course, all that is true, but like, that type- all the things that

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS gets rid of that we don’t like anymore, they’re not coming back. There’s not gonna be a new device that comes out that’s more complicated

⏹️ ▶️ John than the Mac. Like, it’s going- It’s the other direction right now the iOS is gonna have to get

⏹️ ▶️ John more capable and hopefully not get as Complicated as the Mac like it’s the whole continuum iOS and one

⏹️ ▶️ John end and Mac on the other Where do they meet in the middle what happens? But that form factor a tablet form factor

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to become more capable You’re gonna be able to do more stuff with it, so they have to have a bigger more powerful one someday

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know when that day is but I’ve continued to wait for it because as soon as you see iOS as soon as you See that a tablet OS you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like well. I can barely do anything on this thing now, but I I can imagine a future

⏹️ ▶️ John where I can do way more with this thing and that way more is going to require a bigger screen

⏹️ ▶️ John and more power. And so that’s my simple explanation for the iPad Pro because it has

⏹️ ▶️ John to assume some of the mantle of the Mac eventually. It will assume some of the mantle of the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually or it will just go away and be replaced by something different. But it has to, you know, tablet form factor

⏹️ ▶️ John has to do that and so it’s going to get bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but that doesn’t, nothing you just said implies a difference. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I hear iPad Pro, what that indicates to me is that there’s going to be a clear delineation between

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPad regular and iPad Pro. Be that a much larger screen size, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me is a weak line, a dashed line, if you will, or a much better processor,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much more RAM, or a much bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s gotta have a bigger screen size though.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But see, I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John why. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John one of the things that a Mac can do that iOS devices can’t do is a bunch of stuff at once.

⏹️ ▶️ John And a bunch of stuff at once means the thing you’re doing probably can’t take up the entire screen. And if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna divide the screen up in any possible way, you need more screen. That’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But iOS, some of the beauty of iOS is not being able to do more than one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing at once.

⏹️ ▶️ John True, all true. Like I’m not saying that’s gonna go away. I’m saying, well, you wouldn’t wanna divvy up.

⏹️ ▶️ John You would never, like imagine divvying up an iPhone screen. Now you can have two iPhone apps side by, no, it’s too

⏹️ ▶️ John small, right? And even a full-size current iPad screen, I don’t think you want to divvy that up.

⏹️ ▶️ John But if you’re going to be using a tablet device to do development, like the new version of Xcode in 2027

⏹️ ▶️ John only runs on iOS, you’re going to want to see more than one thing at once.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you need more screen space to do that. It’s the same reason we all have multiple windows on our Macs. Now, it’s not going to be a multi-window

⏹️ ▶️ John interface. That’s too complicated. But it’s a continuum. And if you want to do more stuff with iOS,

⏹️ ▶️ John you need to see more things at once. And it’s not a smart idea to take existing screen sizes and chop them

⏹️ ▶️ John up. So I think it’s inevitable that at a certain point, you need more screen space to do. Otherwise, it was saying

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac’s gonna be around forever. And there’s nothing you can do on a Mac today that you can’t do on iOS that’s ever going to

⏹️ ▶️ John jump ship to like, well, previously you couldn’t do that on iOS, but now you can. And previously you needed a Mac to do that,

⏹️ ▶️ John but now you can actually get away with it on iOS. We’ve already seen that happen in small degrees. Eventually we’re gonna reach a point

⏹️ ▶️ John where you say, well, the only way we could ever do that on iOS is we need to be able to see more than one thing at

⏹️ ▶️ John once. And we can’t do that on existing screen sizes, so we need a bigger screen. and a new OS and a new

⏹️ ▶️ John paradigm for how we’re doing that, whether it’s the Windows 8 way with divvying it in half. They’ve got to come up with some of

⏹️ ▶️ John that, because the need to do more than one thing at once and see more than one thing at once is not going away.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but we’ve had, throughout computing history, we’ve always had specialty devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that could do less, that still had a place in the market, but they never took over.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So things like game consoles are probably the best example of this, where you had, Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no one was ever saying eventually game consoles are gonna be so good. They’re gonna replace computers

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re forgetting the GUI again. It could do less than the command line, but it took over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the problem the problem I see With with trying to make tablets replace computers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the biggest problem by far is the same thing I was saying on my blog

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which was horrible in 2009 when I was when I was basically there were all these rumors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Apple was gonna make a tablet and I I wrote a few articles that were, the gist of it was,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s gonna have to solve the input problem because the biggest problem with tablets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the reason they’ve never taken off before is because of input. And because you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have this weird thing where like, you know, it’s trying to do computer tasks,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but keyboards for tablets have always sucked unless they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been full-on laptops so that do the convertible thing, In which case they’re big and kind of crappy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tablets. And so, what are they gonna do to solve this? Right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And in fact, they didn’t solve it. They just punted. They basically said, you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what? We’re just gonna keep the onscreen keyboard that we had on the iPhone and it’s gonna work okay. And they did,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it does. It works okay. You know, it doesn’t work amazingly. It’s very limited.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And there’s a lot of things that people are demanding real keyboards for for very good reason. because real keyboards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work way better. And so, they didn’t solve that problem with the iPad. That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t mean they ever will. It doesn’t mean that, like, I think multitasking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a full computer kind of requires good advanced fast input. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you not only have to solve the keyboard problem of-

⏹️ ▶️ John Who’s to say an iPad Pro wouldn’t have a keyboard?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so, okay, so maybe it will. So, the bigger problem is, what do you do with the mouse?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because iOS doesn’t, and there was a good discussion the talk show this week about this too. iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not built for a mouse cursor. A mouse cursor doesn’t really… I mean you could like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it work you can do it in the simulator but it kind of sucks and it’s very clearly not made for that. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco experience of using a hardware keyboard with an iPad and having to keep reaching up to the screen with your finger to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco touch things is really terrible and so like there’s there’s these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco major major problems with iOS that they would have to solve that. Well, I mean, it’s a problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only in the sense of trying to make it replace computers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they’re not trying to replace computers. They’re just trying to take some of the functionality that currently requires computer

⏹️ ▶️ John and allow it to be done on the iPad. That’s like, that’s the history of iOS and the iPad. Things that previously

⏹️ ▶️ John required a computer are now feasible on iOS devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah, but that’s always been the case with iOS. It’s always been expanding its

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reach a little bit, but there are these major barriers that it doesn’t really easily cross

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of things like input and multitasking.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s going to be difficult. Yeah, I mean, the multitasking problem is not technically difficult, but UI wise. But like, I think it has to happen

⏹️ ▶️ John because the alternative is relegating the human race to have to use windowed

⏹️ ▶️ John personal computers of the type that we know now forever. And they’re just too complicated for regular people to use. Like, they’re just

⏹️ ▶️ John the windowed interface with file system access and folders. Like, we all love it. We all think it’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ John It will always exist for expert users. but humanity has voted and they want things

⏹️ ▶️ John that they can touch that are not as complicated. And so we are tasked with, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John we have to find a way to make more things possible with these things that people actually want to use that are harder to screw

⏹️ ▶️ John up. Like that’s just progress. I can make it so it’s not so complicated. So there’s not so much to know. So it’s harder to break. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s more reliable. Like we’ve done that with iOS. We’ve done it by shedding almost everything that’s,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, that you can do with the personal computer, but we’ll say, how much of of that can we get back without compromising the complexity?

⏹️ ▶️ John If we screw it up and bring too much of the computer stuff over to iOS, then maybe we’ll need another reboot and

⏹️ ▶️ John let’s try this again and start over with a different paradigm sometime in the future. But I think this is

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s going to happen is this is our opportunity to make iOS more capable. Does

⏹️ ▶️ John it include putting a keyboard on it? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. What can you do without a keyboard?

⏹️ ▶️ John Do we need a mouse or do we not need a mouse? We don’t like to reach up for the thing, like do we want to have it on our lap? Do you want to have a better

⏹️ ▶️ John virtual keyboard. Like, I don’t know what the solutions are to these things, but like baby steps

⏹️ ▶️ John would just be, you know, Windows 8 is already doing it with like, if you’ve got a big enough screen, sometimes you want to see a Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John app on the side while you’re working in another app. Or sometimes you want to copy and paste from one app to the other without doing a switch type thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like the larger screen, being able to see more than thing at once is a small step in that direction.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if done well, can open up lots of functionality that I haven’t listened to this episode of the podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re talking about, but it can open up a lot of functionality. I assume they’re complaining about it. like, look, I just want to do a simple workflow

⏹️ ▶️ John where I’ve got like a graphic editor and some links in a web page and I’m writing text, like, you know, just blogging, how

⏹️ ▶️ John much easier it is blogging on a Mac, because you have all those things kind of in play at once versus trying to do

⏹️ ▶️ John an iOS and you feel like you’re constantly switching stuff. That is a surmountable barrier

⏹️ ▶️ John with some clever software and a larger screen, ignoring the keyboard input and just keep

⏹️ ▶️ John them with our fingers just being able to like, do a simple blog post synthesizing from some

⏹️ ▶️ John graphics and text and links and stuff. That’s the I think that’s our next step.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, I don’t think that’s the next step. I feel like the next step is just, and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know everyone’s been beating this to death, but just better interapp communication. Because if you look at what Vatici is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing with X callback URL and URL schemes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and chaining just ridiculous things together, I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if that was less user hostile, and it will probably always be a power user

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of thing to do, but just a less user hostile way of doing things. Like whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Android does or like Windows phones, contracts, whatever they’re called, that’s not the right word for it. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey forget what it is now, but.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, that was a, it’s intense on Android, I think, and contracts on Windows 8, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, it is it? Okay, I think you’re right now that you say that. It doesn’t matter, you get the idea. I would love that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS. Right, and it would be so much nicer, but it would enable us

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do a lot of things. Like if you’re doing a blog post, yes, it would be in a perfect world, nice to look at something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that your comment writing a post about on the left hand side of a landscape screen and your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your editor window on the right. But to be honest, you know, using your four fingers on an iPad to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shimmy back and forth between apps and do the fast app switching, that’s sufficient. And I’d almost

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rather have the hurdle of swapping between apps to see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a blog, to see something that I’m commenting on and then comment on it. And I’d rather do that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey than have some crazy scheme of having, I don’t know, two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPhone apps side by side or, or something or something where the screen is split in half.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It seems to me like that would be not not fun.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, we’re talking about the same thing, because that’s the plumbing that would have to underpin all this display issues are kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John neither here nor there. Because again, the same the same ability to do more than one thing, like

⏹️ ▶️ John to have more balls in the the air at once would still also probably exist on the full size iPad, even though they would probably never

⏹️ ▶️ John want to split that screen. Like it’s the plumbing that makes it work. It’s just that when you have more screen space,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, like think of, think of this way. Remember people first got like 24 inch monitors or 21

⏹️ ▶️ John inch monitors and monitors that were way bigger than they previously had. It was like, you know, you’d had a 14 inch and all of a sudden you got a 21 inch and you’d

⏹️ ▶️ John see the windows users with their new 21 inch monitor and be like, this is awesome. I have a gigantic monitor. And then they would take their notepad

⏹️ ▶️ John window and zoom it to full screen and it would fill their entire screen. would be like their text would be in a little

⏹️ ▶️ John column on the upper left and the whole best of it would be an expanse of white and it’s like I think you’re missing the

⏹️ ▶️ John advantage of having a larger monitor it’s not so you can take all your existing windows and make them huge because I mean people would

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually learn if it was wrapping wasn’t on that trying to read a line of text that’s two feet wide is

⏹️ ▶️ John not comfortable like there’s a comfortable width for a column of text so you can your eyes you know and then once you’ve made it narrow

⏹️ ▶️ John what are you gonna do with all you can put something else in that space like and that’s why I’m getting back to iPad Pro not

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s what everyone’s gonna use instead of a PC or not that everyone who has an iPad is going to get one, just that there will exist

⏹️ ▶️ John this it’s kind of like the Mac Pro of the iPad line, there will exist a tablet type device for

⏹️ ▶️ John artists for graphic designers, maybe even for coders. If like we put a keyboard in front of an X code with like,

⏹️ ▶️ John instead, imagine architects drafting table with a keyboard in front of it, where it’s all flat, and you’re not reaching up at a

⏹️ ▶️ John screen or whatever, like there are endeavors that you might be able to do where you’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is less complicated than a Mac, and I can get all the same things done. And once you get a larger screen like You’re gonna be like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, all the plumbing’s there. I could do this with a four finger swipe or whatever, but I’ve got this gigantic screen that’s like 19, 20 inches,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a beautiful touch screen. I can do these amazing things with it and everything, but sometimes I just want to see more than one thing on

⏹️ ▶️ John it. So they have to come up with some solution to that, and the solution can’t be a bunch of windows because that sucks, and we’re just making the same stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John come back that we had before. So I don’t know what the solution is, but I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John inevitable if we ever want to leave behind the crappy things

⏹️ ▶️ John that computers make us endure now, but still get some of those advantages in some realms. It will still

⏹️ ▶️ John be all the single screen phones, it will still be the regular sized iPads that normal people use. I’m just thinking of,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the reason the Pro is in the name. The iPad Pro used by 3D

⏹️ ▶️ John modelers, graphic designers, people doing page layout if pages still exist anywhere, maybe people doing

⏹️ ▶️ John web development, maybe even people working in Xcode doing iOS devices. Hell, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John you could have one of the other windows could be your simulator while you do real-time updates in Xcode

⏹️ ▶️ John and it recompiles your stuff in real-time and you watch the changes take effect in real-time on the other thing. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like you had a dynamic programming language, but not really.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that would be very cool. But doesn’t the move for OS X to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be more iOS-like, most specifically around full-screen windows and how

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that support has gotten a lot better in Mavericks and it’s actually kind of usable now,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that makes me feel like some sort of windowing system isn’t the right answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I know I’m harping on something that I really shouldn’t harp on, but I just don’t see how any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of windowing is really the right answer. I think it’s something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John else.

⏹️ ▶️ John It can’t be that kind of window system. And with OS X, again, OS X is trying to become more

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS-like, and iOS is trying to do more things that previously only OS X could do. I don’t know who

⏹️ ▶️ John will lurch more in which direction and how and how that will go. Well, one like it, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John my impression is that it’s harder to make Mac OS 10 simpler or OS 10 simpler than it is to make iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John more capable. So I would imagine that’s why I think the future is making iOS more capable and not we can simplify

⏹️ ▶️ John OS 10 until it’s just as simple as iOS. You’ll you’ll never do it, nor should you ever. It would just be a disaster.

⏹️ ▶️ John Better to start with what you they were so smart to start really simple on iOS and just don’t screw it up.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s probably not going to be Windows Like full screen mode on OS X is a great example because now we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John made it simpler. Now you’ve actually just made it more complicated because you left all the existing ones because you can’t get rid

⏹️ ▶️ John of the existing windowing system nor should you, but now you have another mode to go into. And

⏹️ ▶️ John on iOS, they have the opportunity to do something better. And I’m not sure what it is

⏹️ ▶️ John or how it will work, but it can’t be like OS X Windows.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it seems like the kind of Jobs for Stahl dynasty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was pushing for the Mac to become more iOS-like, for iOS to get better. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the most part, that era of Apple was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pulling the Mac towards iOS. And it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now in the Tim Cook era and the restructuring of the divisions,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like Apple has become more confident in keeping the Mac the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and not trying to make the Mac iOS. And you know, all this talk,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and John, you’ve kind of been on this too, like all this talk about these two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco merging eventually has this built-in assumption that that would be a good idea and that that’s inevitable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I would question both of those things. I would say that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we saw what happened when Apple tried to make the Mac more iOS-like. It kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sucked. And everything you’re talking about, about what iOS would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to become more pro, in a lot of ways that would make iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worse.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, it’s like I said in the Mavericks review, it’s picking the right things. What the Forrestall Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John thing was like, they were picking the wrong things to make the Mac iOS like. They picked some of the right things, but

⏹️ ▶️ John like, the right things they did pick, we like. For example, the App Store

⏹️ ▶️ John is a better way to deal with ignoring the policy stuff, just in terms of the mechanics of

⏹️ ▶️ John installing applications. It’s better the App Store way than it used to be, where you go to a web page, download a

⏹️ ▶️ John DMG amount, blah, blah, blah. That’s a simplification that came from iOS. It doesn’t necessarily have to look

⏹️ ▶️ John like iOS or work the same way. The finder doesn’t need to be replaced with Launchpad with little shaky icons. And

⏹️ ▶️ John Accessibility did that too. But the key feature is dealing with installing

⏹️ ▶️ John applications is a pain in the butt. It’s not a pain in the butt on iOS. Can we bring that simplicity to the

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac? And they did. And they brought a bunch of other crappy baggage with it, right? It’s just about picking the right thing. So if you’re going to

⏹️ ▶️ John do the other direction and say we want to make iOS more capable, don’t pick the crappy things that just make it as complicated

⏹️ ▶️ John and evil as the Mac, you got to find the right things like it’s not like you’re bringing a feature over you’re bringing a capability.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can I can I instruct someone over the phone on how to purchase and install an application on a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John previously you couldn’t now you can write good job uninstalled.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not great, right? You know, but like, it’s just a tiny little bit like it’s why I keep

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about filing off the rough edges of OS 10. All the parts of it that are like

⏹️ ▶️ John complicated in ways that normal people shouldn’t have to care about need to go away. And you got to

⏹️ ▶️ John just do that part and not try to be like, and we need to make this application look like an address book. Cause it

⏹️ ▶️ John looks like that in iOS. And it’s like, no, that’s not, that’s not the important part of, you know, the important part is like

⏹️ ▶️ John seamless data sinking through the cloud and blah, blah, blah. And they kind of screwed that up. Right. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s, it’s difficult. It’s not saying it’s an easy job, but that’s what they have to do. Pick the right things, the right capabilities

⏹️ ▶️ John to bring over. Some of them can’t be carried over, some of them shouldn’t be carried over, and some of them have to be done

⏹️ ▶️ John in a different way on the target platform.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, I would disagree that it’s even possible to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make a good combination. Like, the problems that these two very different platforms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solve, I think there’s insurmountable differences in attempting to merge them. I mean, look

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Windows 8.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco not going to get

⏹️ ▶️ John like one. Yeah. No one is, I don’t think anyone’s arguing you’re going to, both of these will go away and they’ll be replaced by one thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like that’s not going to happen. Because if you did it replace it by one thing, it would have to be one thing that has so many different modes that it

⏹️ ▶️ John access to different things. Like what’s the point of you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco having. You’d have

⏹️ ▶️ John Windows 8. Yeah, exactly. Like I could, you could just right now make up a new brand name and apply

⏹️ ▶️ John it to both OS X and iOS and say, hey, we’re unified. It’s one operating system just the way you install it on your Mac.

⏹️ ▶️ John It looks different and behaves totally different. You’re right. It’s exactly like Windows 8, where Desktop version and then

⏹️ ▶️ John this Metro thing over here, and that’s that’s not useful to anybody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really I think if if both platforms Maintain their confidence

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and they’re they’re both okay being themselves I think everyone’s better off the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco platforms Apple the customers regular people nerds power users I think everyone’s better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off because I don’t think Trying to merge these two platforms together is possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do well

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but I think it’s the thing that they’re doing now of making the Mac simpler and making

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS more capable is the right thing to do carefully, cautiously in the right ways.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ve already had false starts. Sometimes they tried to make the Mac simpler in ways that were not appropriate. I mean, and the jury’s still

⏹️ ▶️ John out on a lot of them, like autosave and stuff like kind of the right idea, kind of not the best implementation,

⏹️ ▶️ John but like in general, I, I agree with their that motivation and with iOS, you know, adding multitasking,

⏹️ ▶️ John like thumbs up, right? multitasking switcher was not great. It’s a little bit better on iOS seven, right? Like they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John doing it in little bits and with and with some dead ends and you know, like copy and paste was a good addition,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Let’s make iOS more capable, kind of, you know, you did that, right? But that was something you needed, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John baby steps, sometimes dead ends, retreat, figure out what you did wrong,

⏹️ ▶️ John try again. And you know, the big reset with iOS seven is another opportunity. And I fully expect if and when

⏹️ ▶️ John they come out with something like an iPad Pro and try to enhance iOS to make it a worthwhile product, they’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John screw up something about it, they’ll make it more complicated than it should be. They’ll have to, you know, I mean, like the multitasking switcher,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, that wasn’t a great multitasking switcher and it’s gone now. And I don’t think many people miss it, but the

⏹️ ▶️ John idea that you would want to switch applications and that some of them could be running like, or backer and

⏹️ ▶️ John apps, like that concept was good. They just had to figure out the right time to do it, the best way to do it. Maybe the current implementation

⏹️ ▶️ John is not great, but like, they’re going in the right direction in small pieces. And that’s, I

⏹️ ▶️ John look, I look down the line at that. And you’re right. But I never see one OS going on everything

⏹️ ▶️ John because it doesn’t make any sense. It would have to be such an incredibly capable OS to scale from a phone up to a PC. It doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John make any sense probably in our lifetime. But these two products should evolve

⏹️ ▶️ John to adopt each other’s benefits to the degree that’s possible and appropriate.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we actually done now?

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco wanted to put this topic in this show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s all Marco’s fault. God, he’s so mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John us. just wait until I talk about AV receivers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How about software methodologies? When are we doing that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s start now. Why

⏹️ ▶️ John not? Did you guys Google the fireworks factory? No, you probably didn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What the hell are you talking about? Oh, never mind. Are you making another Simpsons reference?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. Not all my pop culture references are from the Simpsons,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but 90% of them are. All

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John right, can we get titles?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m half tempted to start software methodologies, kind of to troll myself into staying up late.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do really like Romeo and Syracuse yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What the hell was that? Where was I when that happened?

⏹️ ▶️ John No one said that. That’s just someone making up a title.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a hell of a compliment, the Accidental Hypercritical Podcast. It’s a terrible title, but a great compliment.

⏹️ ▶️ John This was not an accidental hypercritical podcast. It was no accident.

⏹️ ▶️ John This was no boating accident. Do you get that one? Nope. Nope. Jesus. Chat room, do you

⏹️ ▶️ John see what I’m dealing with here? I need some something to commiserate.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey How

⏹️ ▶️ John many times

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have you said

⏹️ ▶️ John that? It just boggles my mind. It boggles my mind. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should this should totally be part of their drinking game. Like it’s like part it’s this should be on everyone’s bingo boards.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you see what I’m dealing with?

⏹️ ▶️ John When I when I get mad and become crazy because you guys don’t know like

⏹️ ▶️ John the most amazing I’m not that much older than you is you have no excuse. There’s no excuse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, John trolling you might be my favorite thing in the world. I mean, I love you

⏹️ ▶️ John If you start trolling me, it would work because like your your actual your actual lack of knowledge about

⏹️ ▶️ John pop culture It’s it’s like impossible to parody That time I had actually

⏹️ ▶️ John seen that movie but I lied just to annoy you It’s like well, it’s no worse than the ones you haven’t legitimately seen so

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not even it’s not even effective trolling

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, it’s so true.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like, is there a movie you can pretend to not have seen that is more that is more

⏹️ ▶️ John implausible than the movies you’ve actually not seen?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Forrest Gump?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not that impressive.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No one likes Forrest Gump.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, speaking of the professionals listening to Marco, he was saying that he had seen the Star Wars movies. Like Marco has seen Star

⏹️ ▶️ John Wars? I was so proud of you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, of course. Although I have not seen any Harry Potter’s, any Lord of the Rings.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re not missing anything on Lord of the Rings. I’ll tell you that right now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Star Trek’s I was never a Star Trek guy. So

⏹️ ▶️ John zero Star Trek’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’ve seen bits and pieces the TV show here and there but never never like sat down and really watched it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, I was a religious next generations fan the next generation. Excuse me. I’m already making myself sound

⏹️ ▶️ Casey terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Already trolling.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m trolling myself and John and then I watched all of the movies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Up through like the second or third next generation one I forget which one it was. That was the last one. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know enough to know that the evens are the goods and the odds are no good.

⏹️ ▶️ John Debatable. You should watch the JJ Abrams Star Trek movies. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I’m sorry. I have seen the new ones. Those are very good. I was talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the writer. It was Star Trek Generations, I think was the last one I saw. And then there were like four

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that were the next generation cast, staff, whatever you want to call them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I missed those last four or whatever it was.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re not missing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey too much. No, I didn’t think so.

⏹️ ▶️ John You watch the TV series next-gen so you can imagine that crew is not really Cut out for

⏹️ ▶️ John action movies.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I mean, I love the show. Don’t get me wrong, but you’re right They’re not cut out for action movies. We

⏹️ ▶️ John need some titles here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sorry. Yes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m going through the the podcast by Lex and Dan Morin called

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not playing where they go through they go through movies that like everyone has seen that Lex

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Dan Morin have not seen and they like watch them for the first time and record a commentary track

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they did mannequin. I don’t think that’s a movie. Everyone’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, I haven’t seen okay. I’m looking through here Alright, so Beverly Hills

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cop I’ve never seen that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco diehard one. I don’t think I’ve seen that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey so good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve seen some of the recent ones you HF. I did see UHF

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re gonna drink from the fire hose. All right. I hated it, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did see it Field of Dreams I’m pretty sure I have not seen I might have seen bits and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pieces on TV here and there but I haven’t seen the whole thing I don’t think I’ve never seen it Mannequin definitely not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think I saw that when I was a kid and had inappropriate feelings about it if memory serves

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so did Lex and lethal weapon definitely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not lethal weapon I’ve seen all I’ve seen all the lethal weapons all the Beverly Hills cops

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s see field dreams never seen UHF UHF I don’t think I’ve ever seen of course I’ve seen diehard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and come on I’m not an animal and that’s it I guess titles

⏹️ ▶️ Casey people God titles

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is how this is how John’s trolling you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John constantly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off the titles

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John try I

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t think you’re the one looking through not playing I haven’t listening to that I don’t listen to the capsule ones I don’t do

⏹️ ▶️ John the commentary ones

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t see any amazing titles so whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I’m a big fan of Romeo in Syracuse yet although I have to spell Romeo correctly which that’s not the way the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tivo’s people spelled

⏹️ ▶️ John it yeah I had to look it up when I tweeted about it cuz I had made a guessing I was wrong. It’s a stupid name.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not a word. And it has nothing to do with roaming. It says on your TV, you’re roaming.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can roam all over your house on the Internet. Yeah. Stupid.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, can we go off here for just a minute before I pass

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco out?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, we’ll keep not picking titles. All right, thanks. Thanks live listeners.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Bye, everybody. We’re so good at this. All right. We’re professionals.