Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

45: Give Up On The Retina Dream

Marco talks himself into a Mac Pro, John talks himself out of one, and Casey fumes quietly.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ John This show should not be that long. People keep asking us about the show,

⏹️ ▶️ John the artwork for the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I moved that down, but okay, we can talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John it. Let’s follow up, I think. So I want Marco to address that because it is a common, a frequently asked

⏹️ ▶️ John question.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. So right now the show has two pieces of artwork. It has the old Mac pro with the new badge on it as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the official one in the feed. Uh, ever since WBDC, I’ve been embedding in the embedded artwork

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in each file, the black Mac Pro with the new badge over it as kind of, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a joke from WBDC. Since roughly then we’ve been trying to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get better artwork made and the biggest problem, we’ve talked to a few designers over the last six months

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or so, the biggest problem is that we have had no ideas and so we asked a designer like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hey we’d love to have you do something for us and of course all good designers are always busy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so they asked us, okay well what do you want and we’re like, we have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no ideas except that it should contain the text Accidental Tech Podcast because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all other podcasts contain their name in their artwork and therefore many podcast clients

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are designed to not even show the title. This is, I believe, true in many sections of the iTunes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast store where you just see the square artwork and you don’t even see a title.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it makes it hard to find the show if the title’s not in the artwork. Besides that we have had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing else to work on however you guys all know us and you can probably take a guess that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though we have no ideas we are going to be critical of anything presented to us which therefore means that we are the worst possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clients to have for a designer so wait a second are

⏹️ ▶️ John you telling people that we need the full name inside the thing because i would be happy with the initials

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s what i

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all right well that’s we’re making progress here i you know i would I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think I would argue against that

⏹️ ▶️ John because if you just have the initials that’s enough for a fan of the show who has it in their

⏹️ ▶️ John feeds to be able to recognize rather than just a heart diagonal banner saying new well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the fan yes but I would say people who already subscribe to it and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already recognize us as a thing the artwork

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being recognizable is less of a problem for them and I would say ours now probably is very recognizable still if you’re browsing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a list. The bigger problem is attracting new people to the show, and most people browsing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iTunes store, if they see this square that says ATP, they’re gonna think this is like the most interesting adenosine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco triphosphate podcast in the world, and we’re not gonna attract new people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It could

⏹️ ▶️ John also be a tennis podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s true. I can’t believe you knew adenosine triphosphate. As the husband of a biology teacher, I am

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very impressed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not gonna pretend like I know whether it’s pronounce that way or not but I’m pretty sure those are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey the words. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re right. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ John right. All right. Anyway, the reason this question comes up is because since we recorded the last

⏹️ ▶️ John episode, the new Mac Pros have been released. I’m sure we’ll talk about that later in the show and people keep

⏹️ ▶️ John asking on Twitter, are you going to change the artwork for the podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John to be the new Mac Pro instead of the old one with a big new banner on it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, I mean, I made that artwork six months ago. I could change it. I might as well. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re trying to get new artwork made still so I thought it would be a little weird to change the artwork now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then change it again in like a month or something but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I agree

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you should keep the existing old-style cheese grater with the new thing on it until

⏹️ ▶️ John we get official new artwork and we’ll just all have to endure the constant questions about why we haven’t changed

⏹️ ▶️ John the artwork but the distinction you were just making there is important that the individual

⏹️ ▶️ John embedded artwork in each audio file is the new one

⏹️ ▶️ John but the artwork for the show is the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco old one right yeah right the the art node in the XML feed is the old Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro and that’s what most clients will display including Overcast

⏹️ ▶️ John but some clients will read from inside of the mp3 file and show that artwork in which case those people have been seeing the

⏹️ ▶️ John new one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah and we get a lot of feedback about oh well yeah is there a bug is something wrong here

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because sometimes I get the cheese graders sometimes I get the trash can and and yeah that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is because the XML feed the RSS feed has one icon or one one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit of artwork and the embedded what is it ID 3 tags have a different

⏹️ ▶️ Casey piece of artwork

⏹️ ▶️ John so bear with us we’ll make it through this together

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all right so with that said before we talk more about the Mac Pro and I go to bed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is there any follow-up that you might have John about other things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Last show we talked a lot about rating applications and the things we could do to add

⏹️ ▶️ John more valuable signal to the suitability of applications besides

⏹️ ▶️ John just easily gamed star ratings and reviews. And one of the social things

⏹️ ▶️ John that we talked about was like, what if you could know what applications that your friends are using or that they like or whatever, and

⏹️ ▶️ John the various levels of creepiness and privacy violations of that. someone whose name I’m going to take

⏹️ ▶️ John a run at tweeted this today. Uh, runak Jane maybe said that

⏹️ ▶️ John app star pages have Facebook like on them, which you know, that’s what more could you ask

⏹️ ▶️ John for in terms of, uh, knowing what your friends do because the Facebook like button is ubiquitous. If people

⏹️ ▶️ John use Facebook, then they already have their relationships with people and they can see which other friends like something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Um, I don’t really think that’s a solution for Apple though. And I don’t think Apple thinks it’s a solution either. it seems more like a stopgap

⏹️ ▶️ John because a it totally cuts out anybody who doesn’t use Facebook and be

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple tends despite their integration with Facebook and Twitter tends not to want to

⏹️ ▶️ John rely on third-party companies for things that are important and so

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to think that that is in there just because Apple doesn’t know what else to do

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not a viable long-term solution personally it doesn’t help me at all because I don’t use Facebook so that doesn’t help at all I do

⏹️ ▶️ John use the App Store and if the App Store itself had a system that was like this I would use it because I use the App Store

⏹️ ▶️ John but requiring me to sign up for and use some other third-party service to make this happen is

⏹️ ▶️ John not really the solution and I also think that okay what if they did it with Twitter use Twitter right well you just

⏹️ ▶️ John get it’s gonna end up like one of those bottom of the blogs from a couple years ago with 8,000 badges for

⏹️ ▶️ John to like it and to post it to Google Buzz and to give it a plus on Google Plus

⏹️ ▶️ John and to retweet it on Twitter and to like it on Facebook and it’s ridiculous Apple needs an actual solution to this,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it is worth pointing out that they’ve got that Facebook thing integrated there. And I didn’t recall that

⏹️ ▶️ John at all. Do you want to remember ever seeing let alone clicking on the little like button

⏹️ ▶️ John on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app store? Yeah, I mean, I have seen them. They added them, I think even an iOS six. Those have been there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while. However, maybe it’s just me and my circle of friends. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve never seen more than like one or two likes there and I’m not really like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m accustomed to ignoring Facebook embed things all over the web with everything I see anyway. So I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like noticed it once and then ignored it for the rest of time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s like ad banner blindness. I literally don’t see that thing unless until someone tells me to look for it. And even

⏹️ ▶️ John then has a hard time driving my eyes towards it because they just bounce off and go around. It becomes invisible.

⏹️ ▶️ John It becomes invisible. Ad banner blindness is a fascinating I mean, I’m sure there’s tons and tons

⏹️ ▶️ John of precedents for the same phenomenon, but to have to have a name for it and to have such frequent

⏹️ ▶️ John occasion to see things at Brown Linus is so insane that like I remember maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John five years ago. I was about to write like an angry maybe it was Twitter itself. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it was about to write an angry email to the people who were in Twitter back in like 2007 to say that it’s insane that they don’t have a

⏹️ ▶️ John huge honking button somewhere on their on one of their pages to do some common function. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John button was there, but I literally could not see it because it was surrounded by things that look like an ad like

⏹️ ▶️ John it it had enough addiness around it maybe was the wrong shape the wrong proportions or the wrong colors

⏹️ ▶️ John I had my eyes just couldn’t see it and I searched the page and I’m scanning out of the camp this should be totally prominent

⏹️ ▶️ John and eventually I saw it and it was just right in front of my face and I was like why did I not see that ad banner blindness

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a real thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh yeah I mean that when I was when I was designing insta paper back in the day like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the app didn’t really have a problem but the website I had I had like one main content column and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off to the right I had a little sidebar and the you know the content column would have the main list and then the sidebar would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have folders and then you know kind of other I kind of use it as a junk drawer you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s where like the export was that would be like different management functions you know bulk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco delete stuff like that I would constantly get get feature requests for features that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had already implemented that were in that sidebar because people just did not see them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they it’s because anything it’s a very hard problem in web design anything that you put

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a place that usually is an ad in most layouts like a sidebar or a big leaderboard on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco top or something like that people just will not see it you’re totally right that’s a real thing and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a big design challenge

⏹️ ▶️ John the military should use it for camouflage because if you make something look like if you make it with the same proportions

⏹️ ▶️ John as typical ad banner or with the same kind of colors or like it’s you know just sort of fuzzy in your peripheral

⏹️ ▶️ John vision out of the of your eye if it looks vaguely like an ad your brain will never look at it so they just they just need to make

⏹️ ▶️ John tanks look like giant punch the monkey ads

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco medium rectangle size that’s that’s not a soldier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a skyscraper

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a new kind of dazzle camouflage that’s very big here um all right so the

⏹️ ▶️ John next bit is a couple tweets about dual input displays last show we talked about that slide that apple had

⏹️ ▶️ John on the mac pro presentation that it supports single in dual input displays and we were wondering what the hell is a dual input

⏹️ ▶️ John display. A couple people have been have responded that there exists

⏹️ ▶️ John displays that it’s like, like we suspected, in

⏹️ ▶️ John the case for higher resolution, they’ll split the display into two parts. And they’ll have two connections and

⏹️ ▶️ John one connection drives one part of the display and the other connection drives the other part and there has to be sort of support on both ends of the connection

⏹️ ▶️ John to keep things in sync. And so you know each side is is showing the right image

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever And I assume this was done before the advent

⏹️ ▶️ John of Thunderbolt 2 because it was the only way then to drive a 4k display Because a single mini

⏹️ ▶️ John display port in the old standard or a Thunderbolt 1 connection or DVI or whatever Had a resolution

⏹️ ▶️ John limit that was insufficient to drive a 4k display so I said fine we’ll just hook up two of those cables

⏹️ ▶️ John and Then one gets one half of the display one the other half gets the other and the operating system is aware of what’s going on

⏹️ ▶️ John everything works what I still don’t know is would dual input

⏹️ ▶️ John displays give us the ability to have something that’s above 4k resolution

⏹️ ▶️ John in other words could you have two Thunderbolt 2 connections and would that allow the Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John with two Thunderbolt cables going to this monitor be able to drive a higher than 4k display

⏹️ ▶️ John seems like it should but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco knowing nothing else about it I don’t really see why not? I mean if you know like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these displays are, let’s see it says here, it’s yeah it’s it’s basically left and right halves so it’s 1920 by 2160

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for each half of a 4k display. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just make that a little bit bigger you can accommodate 51, 5120 was it? 5120 by 2880 which is you know like the 27 inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version of Retina from what we have today. You can accommodate that very easily and not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hit any bandwidth limits along the way if you’re if you’re doing doing like left and right halves like that. Right. So it would work presumably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the exact same way, just with a few more pixels.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t know if anything like that exists, but what they were putting up on that slide, the thing that we weren’t aware of,

⏹️ ▶️ John is that before the advent of Thunderbolt 2, this is how everybody supported 4K, and the Mac Pro supports this.

⏹️ ▶️ John So if you happen to have one of those monitors, you’re good to go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And interestingly, the new Retina MacBook Pro, I’m pretty sure does not support that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll have to verify that. Yeah. But I think there’s some support document somewhere It says the most it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will do is 4k

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John and I think actually over HDMI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John think I think actually 10 9 1 might be the first release of OS 10 that adds support for this feature

⏹️ ▶️ John as well So it’s a hardware and software combination to make sure That it supports you know dual input displays

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right because otherwise you’d have like you know The menu bar would take up the left half of the top of the screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and weird weird stuff like that as if it were Two different displays, so you wouldn’t want that Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and speaking of displays, and we’ll talk more about the Mac Pro, but I put this in the follow-up anyway I guess we talked about that sharp

⏹️ ▶️ John display that appeared briefly on the European website and it disappeared Not only is

⏹️ ▶️ John it back as something you could order on the Apple retail store Or

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple online store rather with your Mac Pro But if you were to go to the new version of the

⏹️ ▶️ John Final Cut Pro 10 web page at they show Screenshots

⏹️ ▶️ John of Final Cut and they actually show it running on these sharp monitors With the word sharp right in the

⏹️ ▶️ John front of them didn’t even black out the logo with the ugly little stand and It is really weird

⏹️ ▶️ John to see a big You know a prominent Display of non

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple hardware on a product page on a big product page. It’s not an obscure thing This is not a tiny image off to

⏹️ ▶️ John the corner. This is a full-width gigantic image of sharp displays

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t do they even show max. Yeah, they show a couple of Thunderbolt displays as well But since they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John really pushing 4k and all this other stuff I guess I mean what choice of that they have to show that because they’re if they’re pushing 4k

⏹️ ▶️ John support they have to show a 4k monitor and That’s the only one they’ve got so I

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t I don’t know a lot of people are saying that this just proves that you know They weren’t ready with their 4k

⏹️ ▶️ John solutions. I had to do something maybe but the tiny little scared voice says

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just never gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John make them out a 4k monitor Maybe they’re just getting out of the monitor business and you’re just gonna have to

⏹️ ▶️ John buy one of these ugly plastic things someday

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, or I mean it could go a couple other ways, too I mean it could it could be that the first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The first 51 20 by 28 80 panels that Apple ships might go in a retina iMac You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know like just similar to how when the when the when this iMac came out the one that we have now that the 27

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Inch screen when that first came out as I said a couple shows ago ago, you could not buy a 27-inch,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 2560x1440 panel for anybody else for at least a few months after that came out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And certainly the 30-inch displays that had that resolution

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were not as good, not as advanced. They had worse color, worse contrast, worse brightness, stuff like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they were more expensive. It’s possible, yeah, maybe they are just saving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these panels for the iMac first and saying, well the Mac Pro customers can go get their own monitors for now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s also possible, and these don’t have to be mutually exclusive, it’s also possible that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re simply not going to make a 4k monitor. That they’re gonna just jump right past

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that and just make a 5120 by 2880 monitor. They don’t need to make a 3840 by whatever. Like you know maybe they just skip that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because for the purpose of their computer monitors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know it’s it’s it’s an awkward resolution because of the size issues we discussed previously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where like if you’re gonna run that as a 2x Retina monitor it pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much can’t be larger than about 24 inches and if you’re gonna run it as a 1x monitor it has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be like 32 inches so it’s which is you know a lot larger than what they make now and a lot larger than what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people want on their desks so it’s it’s kind of a weird resolution to deal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with as general-purpose computer

⏹️ ▶️ John monitors and if If you look at the screenshots on the Final Cut Pro page, they’re not running those monitors in high

⏹️ ▶️ John DPI mode as far as I can tell. Look at the size of the menu bar on them. They’re running them in native res,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is pretty squinty. But it’s right after my own heart

⏹️ ▶️ John of like, yes, please, no non-native res on LCDs if you can help it.

⏹️ ▶️ John If they’re going to wait for it to go on the iMac first, though, that is depressing. Because can you think about how long it’s going to take

⏹️ ▶️ John for this to be an affordable display on an iMac? For a I think we had a need a better name for this thing. How

⏹️ ▶️ John about a quad 27 inch? This is basically take the existing 27 inch Thunderbolt display make four

⏹️ ▶️ John of them tack them together That’s what we’re talking about in terms of pixels. All right, so the for a quad 27

⏹️ ▶️ John inch display It it’s gonna be a long time before that is inexpensive

⏹️ ▶️ John enough to go in an iMac because this one this 4k display that isn’t Even that high resolution is four thousand

⏹️ ▶️ John dollars So maybe next year it have some price in its two thousand and one more year It’s down to 1000, but this isn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John as high as resolution is what we’re talking about so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco well It’ll be fair though

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pro like probe quote pro monitors are always a lot more expensive than similar quality desktop monitors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from from like You know for normal use pro monitors have different you know color and accuracy requirements and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff like that

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah But

⏹️ ▶️ John the 27 inch iMac when that monitor that has really good color quality to when that first came to the iMac

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it wasn’t super duper calibrated professional photographer, but it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really good quality sure yeah But I mean you look at the Dell the new Dell you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever the you 24 the the 24-inch Dell 4k display It’s 1,200 bucks or 13. I think it’s 1300 regular, but you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every time you look at a Dell thing that’s a different price, so it’s it’s about 1,200 bucks and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s 24 inch 4k, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s really cheap compared to everything else. We’ve seen so far I think they even said the 28 inch version.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re gonna be cheaper I think it’s gonna be like 800 But I think it might not be as good of a it’s good of a panel something like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that But the point is I think we’re I think the Dell 24-inch 4k

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shows that This might not be as far off as we think that it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like for this to be affordable for this to be available and affordable in our quad 27-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco theoretical resolution maybe this comes out in six months or a year and Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, maybe Apple charges 1500 or 2000 for it so I guess we should

⏹️ ▶️ John Transition right into Mac Pro discussion because we’re basically talking about it And I think Casey put this question at the bottom of the follow-up

⏹️ ▶️ John here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did

⏹️ ▶️ John Did

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco know crappy eyeglasses you get like off the stand at your eye doctor like these are like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people think these are trendy and cool and I can’t judge that because I’m terrible at that but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I can verify that other people who are good at this stuff are telling me that Warby Parker stuff is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool. Every pair is custom fit with an anti-reflective, anti-glare, polycarbonate prescription

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lens, and every pair comes with a hard case and cleaning cloth so you don’t need to buy any more accessories besides the glasses.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And you guys have the hard case, Tiff has a hard case for her pair, and everyone says this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a really good case. It’s, you know, it’s like strong, it’s fuzzy inside. It’s a great great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco case. Buying glasses online sounds like it would be risky. Like how would you know whether they will fit or how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ll look on you? But Warby actually has some pretty cool tools to cover these questions.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So first of all, their website has a helpful tool that uses your computer’s webcam to give you a preview of how the glasses

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will look on your face. It can even help you measure your eyes and face to get the fit exactly right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A little story here, when we first got Tiff’s pair, we couldn’t get her eye doctor to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco give us the prescription because they were weird. and so we’d we use the online tool to measure and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just estimate what the prescription or you know like what the distances whatever it is between the eyes what that was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then a few days later the eye doctor caving gave us that information and what we measured from ory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parker’s webcam tool was exactly the same they can work perfectly so that thing is really cool

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh… date best part of our reporters that they have this awesome home try on program you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco borrow up to five pairs of glasses risk-free that they will ship to you for free.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can try them on in the comfort of your own home for five days, then just send them back with a prepaid return label, and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no obligation to buy. They also offer prescription and non-prescription polarized sunglasses.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I love polarized sunglasses, personally. If you’ve only ever had non-polarized, you don’t know what you’re missing, really. Polarized

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sunglasses are awesome. And this is a great price, even for non-prescription polarized sunglasses.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What’s also great about Warby Parker is that they believe in giving back to the world. Almost a billion people lack

⏹️ ▶️ Marco access to glasses cannot effectively learn or work. For every pair of glasses they sell, Warby Parker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gives another pair to someone in need through non-profits such as VisionSpring. This is all fantastic.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to slash ATP. Check out their great selection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of premium quality affordable eyewear. Browse around. Get yourself the home try-on kit risk-free.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s awesome. So that’s very simple. Even this time we made it even easier for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You don’t have to worry about the coupon code, which was ATP if you still want to use it. But if you just go to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP, they’ll remember that you came from us and you’ll get the free shipping on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco final order and everything like that. It’ll be great. So go to slash ATP, get your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco home try-on kit. Thanks a lot to Warby Parker for sponsoring the show.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can you explain to me why polarized sunglasses are good since you wear them yourself?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because normally the reason you wear sunglasses, like I wear them almost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the time when I’m driving. The function of sunglasses is to reduce the amount of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco light that is making your eyes have to squint and say, ah, that hurts my eyes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you can do that in a couple of ways. You can do that by just cutting the light by a lot, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco putting a fogged black piece of glass in front of your face and just cutting down the amount of light a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Polarized glasses, and I’m a little unclear as to why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this has this effect, but the polarizing filter with the light going through in only one vibration

⏹️ ▶️ Marco direction or whatever, it makes it so that you don’t need to reduce the amount of light

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coming in as much to get the, for your eyes to be able to open

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fully and not be squinting all the time and not have that fatigue. I don’t know why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is the case, but it is. So the outcome here is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can, you don’t have to have everything be as dark, but it still feels good and your I get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco relieved.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t remember if the sunglasses I got are polarized or not.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, if you got them from Warby Parker, I think they all are, right? Yep. Yep.

⏹️ ▶️ John I got them after the end of sunglass season, so I’ll have to try them out this summer and see how that goes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what you need to do is, if Marco ever visits you and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if he brings his M5, or does Tiff’s car have a heads-up display?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, it does.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Damn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey On the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco minor

⏹️ ▶️ Casey life. I hate you so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco much. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the point is, is if you look at the heads up display, if you look at it at the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ Casey angle, it will disappear. And that’s how you know you have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John polarized in some places.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I just get out one of my old LCD calculators.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think any LCD this effect works on. I’m pretty sure. I don’t think they found a way to make this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not happen because LCDs have a polarizer as the front layer, at least they used to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As far as I know, this works on any, because basically the idea is if the LCD polarizer is at a 90 degree angle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the polarizer on your face, it blocks all light. So that LCD screen, if you turn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, if you rotate it around, at some point when you’re wearing polarized sunglasses, it should become black.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s true, but I’ve never noticed that in my car, which does not mean you are wrong. It doesn’t mean that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s not the case. I’ve just never noticed

⏹️ ▶️ John it. I think modern LCDs have like a diffuser on it that scrambles up all the light so it’s not all, it unpolarizes

⏹️ ▶️ John it after that point. I don’t know. Something will tell us. But anyway, yes, we have many ways to tell. And yes, that’s what I was saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John what you do with the old calculator way, if you had a polarized thing, you just twist it and it turns black.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. So thanks to Warby Parker for sponsoring and I’ve mentioned this several times

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the past because they’ve been kind enough to sponsor us several times. But one of the great things about home try on is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can grab several lenses or not lenses, excuse me, several frames,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you can try all of them. You can try up to five. And what I did when I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got my sunglasses is I put in like three or four that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought were my general style, my standard style. And they were, they were not hipster

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at all. And then I put in one or two that were kind of hipster. And as it ends up, I actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chose one of the hipster frames because I thought they looked the best. And so I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey am very glad that I was able to try them on at home because if I were not able

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to try on several, or if I were only able to try on one or two, I don’t think I would have chosen the lens,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the frames I got, and I really, really, really liked them and they’re really great. So definitely check them out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, Tiff’s were even better. She only, for her home try-on, she only picked three, but they give you five.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So they just picked two other ones that were similar to the ones she had picked, but like a little bit different.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then she ended up choosing one of the ones they picked for her. Nice. Anyway, thanks to Warby Parker. They’re awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you wear glasses or if you want to wear glasses, go to slash ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a free tip for them. What they should do is have a button that says, I can’t choose frames, here’s a picture

⏹️ ▶️ John of me, send me five that you think will look good on me. Just cut out because that’s the, you know, sometimes

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s the best part and it’s also like the most nerve-wracking part of like, oh, which ones do I want? And sometimes, especially if you

⏹️ ▶️ John are fashion disabled as I am, you just click a button and say, look, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is a picture of me, this is what I look like, just send me something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a serious affliction. We shouldn’t joke about that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So John, today Mac Pros were available for order. Did you order

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a new Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, and you knew I wasn’t because I said last show that I want to wait for gaming benchmarks and other things. I did click

⏹️ ▶️ John around on the store, but I did not order one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now Casey, why are we asking you if you want a new Mac Pro? Did you order a new Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Really? No, God, no, don’t be silly. Of course not. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there is no part of me that desires a non-mobile computer. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not saying I’m right. I’m not saying that this makes sense. But for me, I’ve ever since,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey geez, I don’t know, 2002, I’ve always had laptops

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’ve either exclusively had laptops or almost exclusively had laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I’ve always preferred that form factor because I guess by and large, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need a million gigabytes of storage space within my computer. I don’t need a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lot of the things that you guys need. I don’t mean that to patronize you. I mean that genuinely. And so I’ve always preferred

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have mobile computers. And because of that, I actually have two MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros. One is from work. One is one that I bought. And I’ve been considering

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buying a Retina MacBook Pro, but no, I did not buy a Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you have an external monitor hooked up to that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do. I do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t you feel kind of weird, though, like that you’re using this thing that itself has a screen and a keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John on it, but you’re not using that screen and you’re not using that keyboard. another keyboard and another input device,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’re looking at a different screen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whoa. Slow down, sir. So what I have at home

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is an external Apple Bluetooth keyboard, one of the ones that takes, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s four batteries. I have a Magic Mouse that I use both at work and at home.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then I have a Samsung display that’s something around 20 inches at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey home. And there’s a plethora of different displays that we use at work,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of which are around the same size. But I always, always, always use dual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey displays. So at work, I have two displays. At home, I have two displays. And I think it’s absolutely barbaric

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to not use two displays.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s still a mess. Like, one of your screens has this keyboard hanging off of it that you don’t use unless it’s on your lap.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s got a trackpad in front of that that you don’t use because you’re using your Magic Mouse. And that monitor is too low unless you

⏹️ ▶️ John prop it up on a stand. And then it has that big thing jutting out in front of you. If you want two screens, get

⏹️ ▶️ John two screens. Like, I think there’s room in everyone’s life for a desktop.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco In defense of the setup that you were just making fun of, John, I had that setup for the first few years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Tumblr, and it was great. I mean, when I did finally get a Mac Pro and dual monitors, that was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better. But the setup of having a laptop on a stand,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then having a full-size keyboard and mouse on the desktop, and then having a big monitor plugged into the laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the laptop, you’re right, it’s just sitting there floating, not being used, except it’s screen. So you have the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big display as your primary, you have the laptop display as your secondary, and then you have full-size keyboard and mouse on the desk,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop’s on a stand. That’s a great setup. Your desk is gonna be covered in wires, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is a great setup.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would like it better if you could fold the laptop back so that the part

⏹️ ▶️ John that you’re not using is back behind the display, you know what I mean? Like a slate tablet?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, I understand what you’re saying.

⏹️ ▶️ John But you’d still need a little stand, You just get rid of that part that that horizontal part that’s jutting

⏹️ ▶️ John out towards you just looking stupid with input devices that you’re not using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I Mean it does look stupid like any time if a normal person walks by your desk, and that’s your setup They will make fun of it, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then you see them hunched over their desk Hunched over a laptop that’s just flat on the desk all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco day long, and they complain why their neck and shoulders hurt

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no the laptops are gonna nightmares. Yeah All right, anyway, Casey did not

⏹️ ▶️ John get a Mac Pro. Marco, the only person left who could have conceivably bought one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I said previously that I was probably not going to get one until they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had retina displays. So I bought one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, technically, it had a retina display. You just never qualified that it had to be an Apple retina display. It was implied,

⏹️ ▶️ John but technically, if we go back and listen to the tape, you’ll hear that you just said, well, if they offer, they did offer

⏹️ ▶️ John retina displays. right there on the page when you scroll down you can click deep would you like to add a 4k display yes and

⏹️ ▶️ John if you if you don’t look really closely you might think wow Apple has a 4k display which I thought for a millisecond

⏹️ ▶️ John when I first saw that page doesn’t know it’s just a stupid sharp one this is a small icon

⏹️ ▶️ John but you put that Mavericks background on it’s an Apple this phone oh it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no and I and I didn’t buy that display the 4k that Apple’s offering now so I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ordered one I probably wouldn’t have ordered one today if they were

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna be just like in stock normally and I could just buy whenever I wanted but and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t want it so badly that I was gonna order it at 3 a.m. so I woke up this morning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco took care of my family did all the morning stuff and then checked and it said shipping in February

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay well I guess I should probably think about ordering if I want any time soon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I I had to or if I so there’s a thing in New York State where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco New York State computer hardware is sales tax exempt if it’s going to be used primarily

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for software development or making websites, which mine is. So, but to get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the sales tax exempt thing you have to either file for it later with the state after you have paid it and try to get reimbursed, which is a disaster

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of paperwork that I don’t even want to attempt, or buy it through an Apple business rep.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s what I did. I emailed the business rep at my store and said, hey I want one of these things, let’s let’s do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. And which is good because that also comes with a small discount. Mine was discounted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something like $400 by the business rep. It was a pretty good discount.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s not small.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I did that because I… and I even asked him, like, you know, is there…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you think I’m gonna get this before February, like the website? And he’s like, well, we can put it in the separate order system and there’s some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of priority, but probably not, basically, was the answer. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I got it and mainly because I think between now and February a lot of people are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna get these things and everyone else can figure out what is the best retina monitor situation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solution, if any, right now. Is it the Dell’s? Is it these other things? Who knows.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Everyone else will have time to figure that out, and then by the time I get mine I can decide then either to keep using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my display and hope that the cable doesn’t flake out, keep using my 30-inch that I have now until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple makes their own, you know, four times the 27-inch that we have today,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or I can go Dell. I mean, I’ve actually, as I said, like I’ve never even had an Apple display, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it wouldn’t be outrageous for for me to buy a non-Apple display again because I’ve never bought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an Apple display. So that’s what I’m going with.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Was there ever really any doubt in your mind that you would immediately insta-buy the new Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really thought that I would wait until like, you know, the spring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and see what people said about them, see how big of a performance gain there was from the old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one, stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what you said. You were like, oh, I’m gonna wait, I’m gonna wait until all the retina stuff’s ready. and

⏹️ ▶️ John you were totally gung-ho in the waiting, so much so that I was like, yeah, maybe I’ll wait like Marco, but I should have known,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never gonna wait. Well, the other thing is, you know, with almost all Apple hardware,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the price doesn’t ever go down during the life cycle of the product, especially, I mean, Macs especially, iOS, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco guess, has changed that a lot, but in the Mac area, it’s not like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Pro is gonna cost $1,000 less in six months. Like, the price does not change.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s gonna stay this exact same price from now through whenever the next one comes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. The Mac Pro has only had a price drop once and that was the quote update

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last year that they did that wasn’t really an update that caused our logo to exist. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides that, there’s never been a price drop on a current Mac Pro. Whether I buy it now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whether I buy it in six months, doesn’t make much of a difference really. It’s like you’re paying the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco price, might as well have it sooner and have all that extra performance sooner Because there’s a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of stuff I do today that will benefit from the extra speed. Quite a lot actually. Especially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the production of this show and a bunch of image editing tasks I often do and I’ll do big batch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco operations on big folders full of images and stuff like that where I parallelize everything. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot that I’m going to gain from it immediately. And it’s not going to be tremendous,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 10 times faster than what I have now, but it is going to be between 1.5 and 2 times faster than what I have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now and that will add up. So what did you get? 8-core, 32GB, Terabyte? Yep, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think, I would say that the best value configuration, if you want the best bang

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for your buck, it’s the 6-core, no question. The 8-core is probably not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth its price. It’s a lot more money for the 8-core. It’s probably not worth it for most people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, not only do, because Turbo Boost is basically the same between the two. 6-core is only 500 bucks more. 8-core

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is $1500 more than the 6-core. So that’s a big price difference.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The only thing is the 8-core does have double the cache. It’s even more actually. It’s 12 versus 25

⏹️ ▶️ Marco megabytes. So it has a lot more cache. That will affect performance.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not as much as like two more cores would, but that will have an effect on performance that’s noticeable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a lot of workloads. So the 8-core is, and what’s interesting, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a big reason. I blogged this whole Turbo Boost thing. link to it again today I’m not gonna go over it in the show because it’s too long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and boring and of course I would never do something like that in the show but basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 12 core is actually gonna be slower than the 8 core for a lot of things for almost anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s not using every core all the time the 8 core is gonna be the fastest chip in the lineup

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s one of the reasons why Apple has given all the reviewers the 8 core model and not the 12 core model.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So what GPU did you get? I was all set to get the D500 the middle one but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I ended up going with the D700. And the reason why is because once I price this whole thing out,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the price difference, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John price relativism.

⏹️ ▶️ John $600 extra dollars, and it’s a small percentage of the enormous cost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of this machine. Right. And with the discount, it was probably more like $525 or $550, something like that, whatever it was. It was less. So yeah, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that price relativism. If I thought of it separately, do I want to spend $600 on this extra GPU?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I might have said no. But it’s like, well, I already am spending all this stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the extra, you know, few percentage points on top of that. So I, and I did that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the GPUs probably can’t be reasonably upgraded.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, they’re on slots. Yes, technically they are replaceable, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can only replace them with other Apple supplied parts. Chances are they’re going to cost a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fortune to, to replace these. Like if you wanted to upgrade these things in two years, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to cost you 600 bucks. It’s probably going cost you like $1,500, $2,000. It’s going to cost you a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot. It would be like upgrading your motherboard on your Mac Pro. That’s not going to be a cheap

⏹️ ▶️ Marco operation, even if Apple will sell you the part. I’m guessing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OWC is not going to make their own replacement GPUs that will work with this. It was mainly that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the kind of thing that basically is not replaceable over the lifetime of the machine. So for a very small difference, I can get the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco best one. I did it mostly so that I don’t regret not getting the best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one in like two years and I’m still using this and then all of a sudden I’m hitting the barrier of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco D500 on something I’m doing. And that might never happen, that’s the risk I take I guess. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then when I eventually resell this it’ll be worth a little bit more.

⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s where I’m at with this Mac Pro thing. Way back in the day you were going to wait and I had to buy immediately because

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t stand this old Mac Pro anymore. But now that the thing is out and that I play with the price configurator and

⏹️ ▶️ John all that stuff, god these things are expensive. A lot of money. And

⏹️ ▶️ John like I’m in the configurator and like if you first first time you run through you just go pick everything you want and then you look at the price and you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, yeah, that’s not gonna happen. Right? So then I gotta go and say, what do I sacrifice? Well, so you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John six core, let’s go back down from eight core because it’s easy when all right, that that makes it cheaper.

⏹️ ▶️ John The GPU, I had picked the 700 in the first run through because like half the reason I’m buying the thing because I

⏹️ ▶️ John want a big GPU. I don’t need all that VRAM. But I do like the execution And again, without gaming benchmarks,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if it’s going to serve my needs, because this machine is not made for me.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m just trying to use it because it’s the only machine that comes with something more than a mobile GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John from Apple. And I don’t want a mobile GPU, I want a gaming GPU. Apple doesn’t offer gaming GPUs anymore,

⏹️ ▶️ John they offer professional GPUs, which are these monster things in here that are not what I want

⏹️ ▶️ John or need, and might not even run games that well, we’ll see, or I have a mobile GPU. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so I’m trying to make this machine into into something that it’s really not. And so I couldn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t bring the GPU down. And the other thing about this machine is that both of us were

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of, you are still caught up in this, but we were both caught up in the idea of like, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is when the desktop is gonna go retina. The laptops have gone, well not the Airs, but the regular MacBook Pros have gone retina.

⏹️ ▶️ John All the iOS devices are retina. Finally, with this crazy ass thing, black

⏹️ ▶️ John cylinder thing, we’re going to have the power to go retina on the desktop. It’s not gonna come to

⏹️ ▶️ John the iMac first, going to come to the Mac Pro first. The Mac Pro costs a bajillion dollars, and it can run a Retina display.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you’re still holding on to that dream, but at this point, I’m kind of like, I have to give up on the Retina

⏹️ ▶️ John dream, at least for 2014. Like, Retina is not a suicide pact. I’m not going to spend

⏹️ ▶️ John my entire life savings on this machine to try to get just a desktop display with something in Retina. I have to just

⏹️ ▶️ John let it go and say, it’s not going to happen next year. Because you know what I want. I want

⏹️ ▶️ John the big quad 27-inch display that doesn’t even exist, that might not even able to be driven by this thing

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway. Uh, and so if I look at this as a machine not driving her, and

⏹️ ▶️ John by the way, if I was going to buy a retina display, that’s adding another, you know, $1,500 to $4,000, just

⏹️ ▶️ John depending on what display I get to the cost of this already tremendously expensive thing. And if I don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John a retina display, then I have to ask, what is this machine getting me

⏹️ ▶️ John that upgrading my existing Mac pro wouldn’t, what have I just put in a fast SSD and a

⏹️ ▶️ John gaming card into my existing Mac Pro. Like would that would that run games better

⏹️ ▶️ John and CPU stuff acceptably? Would it? I know it would feel faster because I have a really big SSD and I’m at Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John at work and I know it feels way faster than the spinning disc here. So I know what that’s like. And game a gaming card

⏹️ ▶️ John upgrade. I know what that would be like to that would be way cheaper. And I wouldn’t like think about buying this

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro. I would also have to like I’d have all these discs and external enclosures that are like firewire enclosures.

⏹️ ▶️ John And yeah, I have the NASA and everything, but I don’t want to just get rid of those firewire discs. So what I have, would I have to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John a Thunderbolt enclosure to put that stuff in? Would I have to buy a Thunderbolt hub that I connected to like the just

⏹️ ▶️ John the money just keeps flowing out of me and into the hands of Apple and these other people.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m, I don’t know if I I don’t know if I should buy this machine. I don’t know if I should just

⏹️ ▶️ John wait until it is like you said, it’s not like I always six months and they’ll be cheaper. No, they won’t like that. They’re not gonna get cheaper

⏹️ ▶️ John until the new versions come out next year. Like maybe if I’m lucky at WWDC they’ll announce revised

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pros.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well it won’t be that soon because the next Xeon chips won’t even be out until I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Q4 next year.

⏹️ ▶️ John The CPUs won’t be the same but as I said the GPUs that are in these are already based on AMD’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John previous gen core like they have revised their their GPU core so it is conceivable

⏹️ ▶️ John that WWDC could roll around which is kind of the year anniversary of the machine but not really like the year anniversary of the announcement

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’ll they’ll say, oh, well, it’s got the same Xeons, because what else could they put in it, right? Maybe there would be a slight price

⏹️ ▶️ John drop on that. But mostly what I’m looking for is they would revise the GPUs to be the newer architecture.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe they would just hold the prices the same, and they’d be a little bit better. But maybe there’s something out there. If I just write off 2014

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, in 2015, that’s when I’ll get my Mac Pro. And maybe by then, in 2015, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a chance that I’ll have Retina displays, real Retina displays, quad 27-inch. I don’t know. I haven’t made a decision yet. I’m definitely

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking about, I’m definitely, while I’m pricing out the Mac Pros, I’m also pricing out an SSD

⏹️ ▶️ John and a new card for my existing Mac Pro. Or by the way, if you wanna sell your Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, Marco, you’ll give me a sweetheart deal, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t, I don’t. I actually was just thinking like, how the hell am I gonna sell this PCI Express SSD? Who’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy this?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t know how good it is. I’ll have to look at like, I don’t, it’s, I would never put that in my machine because

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like finicky and expensive I’d rather just have like a SATA one or whatever, but I don’t know like it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco finicky. It is expensive But I would I would sell this to you for a good price

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I don’t want to sell it like to in public I just don’t want to deal with it

⏹️ ▶️ John I also don’t want another cheese grater coming into my house because they’re This one’s gonna go up into the I

⏹️ ▶️ John just sell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you the card if you want.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah, I don’t know I think see at that point I would just buy myself an SSD that I could reuse

⏹️ ▶️ John someplace I’ll you know I buy an actual set enclosure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think he’ll mind me saying this I Bought this PCI Express

⏹️ ▶️ Marco card probably about eight months ago. It was before to be BDC by a good amount I think it was like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in February or something so I I DM Jim Dalrymple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before buying it because he and I are friendly so I DM him and I’m like hey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Just, you don’t need to answer this, but do you know whether the next Mac Pro will still have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco PCI Express slots? Because I really wanted to, like I was gonna buy this thing, I’m like I really wanna reuse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it if possible. And I thought back then, of course it would have PCI Express slots.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Why would they remove that from the Mac Pro? That’s why so many people buy the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro. It’s got PCI Express. Thanks, yeah. You were one word

⏹️ ▶️ John off. Yeah, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure enough, and he, Jim usually responds to, you know, casual

⏹️ ▶️ Marco messages, but you know, he doesn’t leak his secrets to even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to friends, so he just never responded. And I’m like, aww, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at first I thought, oh well, you know, he’s being coy, he doesn’t want to tell me anything about the new Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then it gets announced and there’s no slots, aww. I should have listened

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Jim’s non-message more closely.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, because that’s not reusable in anything except for another Mac Pro. So I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do have little enclosures, like basically Thunderbolt enclosures with the PCI Express slot that I could put this in.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I could do that. But as you said, that’s a lot of parts, though. That’s a lot of things that could flake out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m a little wary to do that. That’s probably like $300 for that box, too. It is. Yeah, it’s $300. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m probably just going to try to sell this card.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s like the rule of cables, or the rule of the Apple store is nothing less than $30, and the rule

⏹️ ▶️ John of lightning cables used to be. But now the rule of Thunderbolt is nothing involving Thunderbolt

⏹️ ▶️ John in any way is less than $200 or $300. Aren’t the cables still $50? Yeah, I’m talking about boxes. If

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an empty box, there’s a Thunderbolt on one end, and then on the other end it has a bunch of other ports.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, firewire, USB, all the other things. It’s magic that that works, and it’s awesome, but those boxes are always like $200 or $300.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like even an enclosure like if you want to get a drive enclosure like

⏹️ ▶️ John the drive is $80 worth of the price of this $280 thing I Also,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just hate enclosures I would much rather Have everything in the Synology NAS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my closet and have my desk have only the Mac Pro and nothing hanging off of it except a Monitor, you know like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just no No, like random enclosures on my desk all over the place.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I use them for the OS 10 reviews That’s what I’m thinking of like next year. What am I gonna do with those if I get that

⏹️ ▶️ John a new Mac Pro? I need some alternate boot disks to boot off of the new operating system, and you can’t really boot off

⏹️ ▶️ John of a NAS so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco 3 I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean the USB 3 is like this this awesome fast thing that that us Mac Pro owners have like never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco realized existed But I feel like that’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of I do have a bus powered USB 3 terabyte drive That’s black in fact, and I was like boy.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’ll look great attached to my Mac Pro, but it’s kind of not fair to boot

⏹️ ▶️ John the OS off a really slow like 5400 rpm

⏹️ ▶️ John 2.5 inch it’s not it doesn’t seem right to me I want I want to have a reasonable experience

⏹️ ▶️ John Testing a new OS and not like handicapping in that way, so I don’t know I’m conflicted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the best part of being cheap and not having the Ridiculous needs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and or lack of self-control that you to have is that I have none of this stress

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right now I’m I’m perfectly happy and that has nothing to do with anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve put in my body today I’m perfectly happy with my old Non

⏹️ ▶️ Casey retina MacBook Pros and I am content with that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you shouldn’t be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I am

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⏹️ ▶️ John Got a few more things to say about the Mac Pro value.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my god, are we not done yet?

⏹️ ▶️ John Keeping me up at night. No, we’re not done yet. Because I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey going to be

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking about this for the next year. So you’re just going to have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to deal with it. But I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to think about it. For whatever it’s worth. I actually just found and pulled up my original 2008

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Pro order receipt. Because it feels like the Mac Pro has gotten more and more expensive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in each generation. to get mid-range specs.

⏹️ ▶️ John There was a dip, I bet if you graphed it, because I remember when there was a one in front of the Mac Pro name for a little while there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The 2008 was the second generation one. The first generation one from 2006, that one,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could get a single CPU, I believe dual-core model. It was either two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or four cores. I think it was two cores on one chip. You can get a single CPU model of that for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe 16 or 1800, something like that. But so mine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I got mine, I remember being upset that the price had gone up. And I paid $3050. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco extra $50 was for WiFi, which was optional. So it was $3000 for the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dual 2.8GHz quad-core chips. So 8 cores

⏹️ ▶️ Marco total across 2 sockets. So you had all, you had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like all, I believe 8 RAM slots across them. them, they had all this RAM capacity,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dual core, you know, dual sockets, everything else. $3000 for that. At the time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was the second lowest CPU option.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There was the 3.0 and the 3.2 GHz, but it’s the same number of cores. So they were

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very close CPU options. Between the three, there was one that was only a single

⏹️ ▶️ Marco socket, that sucked. But there was like three up top that were pretty good. So that was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, that was 3000 bucks. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the computer I’m sitting in front of right now. Dual 2.8, 8 RAM slots, 2008 MacPro. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco At the time, that seemed like a lot of money. But you know, looking back on it, now that we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see like modern MacPro pricing, that was actually a pretty good deal. But most of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fault of this, I think, actually lies with Intel. Intel has been raising their their Xeon prices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like crazy. Like I remember, I believe it was the 2009 era Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the first Nehalem generation, however that’s pronounced, I know that’s wrong. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when like Intel jacked the prices way up and it became insane to get like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dual sockets.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well I have a single socket, one of those at work, and I think that one still was under $2,000 because like

⏹️ ▶️ John the cheap one has always been like the single socket or whatever. I’ve got the single socket stupid one with four RAM slots and

⏹️ ▶️ John triple channel memory, but it had a one in front of its price. I forget what it was, was $1,600 or $1,700. It was really cheap. I’m pretty sure

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco case. When we, I mean, I’ll have to double check. When we got our 2008s, the cheapest one, I believe,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was $2,700 or maybe $2,500. That was for the single socket one.

⏹️ ▶️ John What I’m thinking about for value for the new Mac Pros is value for me, not value as in

⏹️ ▶️ John like, is this a good product or whatever, because the people who need this know that they need it. For me, for the purposes

⏹️ ▶️ John that I’m going to use it, this machine is not made for me. I’m trying to find if it’s useful for me or more useful.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the tests that I want Macworld to run and everything are questions like, are there existing

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs that you can buy now that are faster at single CPU tasks? And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John from their measurements that the top end iMac is faster in single CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John than any Mac Pro you can buy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe that’s correct. I believe it’s something like 5% faster on the single CPU benchmark.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, like the tests, they give a number because they have to give a number. That’s not really representative of anything,

⏹️ ▶️ John because if you ran some tests that blew through the L3 cache

⏹️ ▶️ John on the iMac thing, then it would totally tank on the iMac,

⏹️ ▶️ John and the Mac Pro would destroy it. But it depends on what you’re doing. You can’t just pick some number. It’s not like the CPUs are represented

⏹️ ▶️ John by this thing. It depends on the very specific task. But it is possible that there are workloads

⏹️ ▶️ John for which the top end iMac is faster at single threaded tasks. The

⏹️ ▶️ John next question is, are there non-MacPro Macs

⏹️ ▶️ John that can run, pick a modern 3D game at higher frame rates at the same settings and resolutions

⏹️ ▶️ John as any of the Mac Pros? I don’t know if that’s the case yet, but I could imagine that,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, I don’t know. It seems like it should never be the case because the best GPU in the iMacs is like a

⏹️ ▶️ John 780M or something. It’s a mobile part, right? It’s not even a desktop part.

⏹️ ▶️ John And surely, even the crappiest GPU in the Mac Pro should be able to crush it. But I don’t know until we

⏹️ ▶️ John see results. But all these questions lead me to say, like, if you’re going to buy this machine to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a fast, quiet desktop machine, it’s not going to be Retina. So like, you can’t hold that over the

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac or anything. The iMac comes with the big monitor already built in, which you would like to buy to replace the

⏹️ ▶️ John small monitor here. What is it that you’re spending all this money for if you’re not going to get better

⏹️ ▶️ John performance? Like, should you just get an iMac with a 27 inch display? top of the end, top line.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because you’re not going to get like hard drive bays or anything that you used to get with the Mac Pro that probably appealed to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, exactly. And you know, and I mean, I’ve, in both cases, I’d be giving,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that, is there still a FireWire 800 on the iMac? I don’t remember anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, good question. I doubt

⏹️ ▶️ John it, but. Yeah, but anyway, like it’s, for value for me, I have to think about that because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s so much cheaper to get a top end iMac. Like it’s just incredibly cheaper

⏹️ ▶️ John to get a top end iMac. Or, like I said, what if I just get a new GPU and a new SSD

⏹️ ▶️ John for my existing Mac Pro and just wait? Not that I’m leaving the Mac Pro and I’m never going to get another one,

⏹️ ▶️ John I will buy one eventually I think, but it just has to be a clean win. Or it has to be Retina. And Retina,

⏹️ ▶️ John forget it, doesn’t seem like it’s happening, maybe next year. And it doesn’t seem like the Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John aside from being super sexy and awesome and quiet which all appeal to me, is a clean win in terms of value

⏹️ ▶️ John for what I want to do with the machine. that’s what’s killing me that like, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the you know, my case for a true Mac Pro successor, I think this is it, but aimed at a

⏹️ ▶️ John different realm than where I am like, it’s not it’s aimed at people who need all the power that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John in there. And I would be buying it and not using an entire one of these super expensive GPUs and not

⏹️ ▶️ John using most of the cores. So it’s like, trying to make the best fastest,

⏹️ ▶️ John most awesome computer, of which I’m using like a tiny, isolated corner.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not using the whole machine and so few people will be using the whole machine, so it’s kind of wasted on me That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of disappointing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean given your priorities especially in regards to gaming performance I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really do think that an iMac is probably an iMac and in particular I’m having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iMac and upgrading it more frequently You know like maybe maybe you have an iMac and you updated every two years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that would serve you better than trying to hold on to a Mac Pro for five years and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and trying to get modern gaming performance out of it.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the thing is, there’s no way that the GPU in iMac should, under like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware-wise, come anywhere close to the gaming performance of the Mac Pro. It’s all going to come down to drivers, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think. Because it’s just the number of execution units and parallel processors in that GPU,

⏹️ ▶️ John and any of the GPUs, even the low-end one, surely has to completely dwarf

⏹️ ▶️ John the amount of execution hardware that’s in the stupid mobile GPU that’s in the

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac. The question for the GPU performance, okay, well, so it should crush, by all accounts,

⏹️ ▶️ John based on the hardware, any iMac. But it will not crush, probably, a real gaming GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John card in my current Mac Pro, if such a thing even exists for me to buy, because there’s plenty of gaming GPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John that have more execution hardware than the low-end and maybe even than the medium-end

⏹️ ▶️ John GPUs in the Mac Pro. They don’t have as much VRAM, and they don’t have all those other fancy things

⏹️ ▶️ John for the drivers for Maya and stuff like that, but I don’t need those things. If I just want gaming performance, a gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John video card is a way better deal than those super expensive two GPUs of which I’m not going to use one

⏹️ ▶️ John at all. All

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right, serious question. Why don’t you just build a gaming PC for like 1200 bucks?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because PCs are disgusting. That’s all. How can I build a gaming PC? I don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want to build anything. I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John to have an ugly, ugly, noisy box in my house. I don’t want to have two computers. I don’t want to have a KVM

⏹️ ▶️ John switching. I just don’t. I do not want a gaming PC. The Mac Pro is,

⏹️ ▶️ John my current Mac Pro is the culmination of the dream. I’ve got a GUI, I’ve got Unix. I can run Windows,

⏹️ ▶️ John I can run Mac, both natively. It’s every computer I’ve ever wanted all in one. It’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, five years old or whatever now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It just seems like you’re jumping through a lot of hoops and in particular you’re taking on a lot of costs that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco otherwise probably wouldn’t need at all, simply to avoid having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a $1,200 gaming PC under your desk that you switch between.

⏹️ ▶️ John be more than $1,200 if I got a good gaming PC. But like, I don’t think you realize how cheap PC components

⏹️ ▶️ John are. No, if I’m going to build a game, we see I would get like the $800 video card. So like

⏹️ ▶️ John right there, you know, and those $800 video cards are noisy. And the power supplies, you need to run

⏹️ ▶️ John them have big noisy fans. And it would just be it would be a gigantic noisy hot vacuum cleaner.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or I’d have to like alienware, where they build it for you. And they just charged on top. And then you’re already up into three grand for one of those things. And they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John disgusting looking. no, I do not want to get NBC. Like what I what I want basically is exactly what

⏹️ ▶️ John that little Mac Pro is but attached to a quad retina screen and with even better GPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John that all of whose performance is leveled exactly at gaming like if the

⏹️ ▶️ John drivers are weak to make that happen. I have to wait for the benchmarks really because it could be that that hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John is totally squandered in games because of the drivers or it could be that that it is reasonable and

⏹️ ▶️ John it performs the way you think it should. But even then, I would pick the

⏹️ ▶️ John D700 video card because I know that the top-end gaming cards have that many execution units

⏹️ ▶️ John or more. So to just be in that realm, I have to pick that hardware. Even though no game is going to use

⏹️ ▶️ John 12GB VRAM, I just have to buy that because it comes with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How much internal flash storage would you go with?

⏹️ ▶️ John I would pick terabyte. I mean, I would have to because even if I was going to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John an SSD for this thing, I would pick something close to a terabyte just because that’s not that expensive that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not the big cost thing and I want to just be able to fit all my stuff and I want it to be on the super fast PCI

⏹️ ▶️ John Express SSD like it’s that’s part of the experience of having that machine that’s something that even the top and

⏹️ ▶️ John iMac has a PCI Express SSD probably not as fast as the ones that are in the Mac Pro but I would bet it’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John same part actually I don’t know about that but it will say they did test they did a brief

⏹️ ▶️ John testing a Mac world of the SSD and they came up with some number and they seem to be impressed by it so I’m assuming that number

⏹️ ▶️ John is Faster than what they got from the SSD built into the top end.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it was just under a gigabyte per second read and write Which is pretty awesome?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I just did some quick price outs here So for you to have a top-end iMac 16

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gigs of RAM. How’s that good for

⏹️ ▶️ John you 16 gigs of RAM? What is this 2007 all right all right? Let me bump

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up 32 32, okay? I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know this is the thing I would save money by I could save money by well No, I couldn’t save money because that

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t don’t they put the 16 filling all the slots I was gonna say yeah I could go from 16 to 32 by buying

⏹️ ▶️ John third-party RAM because you can actually replace that on those little pop-out things That’s not going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, but you’re gonna have to you’re gonna have to pop them all out and replace them all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So just getting everything from Apple free for an iMac configured the way you would want it You’re looking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at just under four grand 3949 and then a Mac Pro I put in the six core

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because friends don’t let friends by the four core, and it’s 5800 so you’re looking at about almost $2,000 difference to get the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Pro. Plus no monitor.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m having a hard time justifying the Mac Pro for you. And I would happily justify this for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody who wants me to, but for your expressed needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and priorities of wanting a really great gaming computer for home, but otherwise,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides gaming, what are you mainly doing on this computer that’s really stressing it? Like what are your highest needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tasks?

⏹️ ▶️ John The reason I said 32 gigs of RAM is because like if I was so I can go to activity monitor now I’m probably using

⏹️ ▶️ John all my RAM I’m always running out of RAM I have 16 on this and

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess the memory compression in Mavericks does help but let’s see what we’ve got on memory.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is Pearl that needy?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah well you know it’s it’s not it’s duct typing right all that all that RAM for duct typing?

⏹️ ▶️ John No no memory use 15.4 gigabytes out of 16 but I quit a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of apps before I do a a podcast just for safety’s sake. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey granted, Pearl is ancient and old and boring and silly. Good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing none of us are ancient. Or boring or

⏹️ ▶️ John old. No, the SSD is like having a Mac Pro at work with an SSD and one at home without.

⏹️ ▶️ John SSD is a big part of improving my computing experience. And the other part

⏹️ ▶️ John is whenever I fire up Steam to play a game or something, my GPU is just not cutting it. And people in the chat

⏹️ ▶️ John room are taunting me by saying their two and a half year old iMac beats my current Mac and the 8800 still holds its own

⏹️ ▶️ John still does things that a really crappy iMac

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU can’t but the top end iMac GPUs are getting better but like I’m not looking for oh just

⏹️ ▶️ John get something that can run modern games I’m looking for headroom if I’m gonna spend all this money I want something that has the power

⏹️ ▶️ John to last me as long as this 8800 has lasted me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you’d be better off you’d be better served either getting a reasonably specced Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and getting a gaming PC whenever the Mac Pro becomes too slow for gaming for you for $1,200

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or just getting a top of the line iMac every two years.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or getting an SSD and a new video card for this one. I have to leave that in the category of things or buying some

⏹️ ▶️ John parts of your old Mac Pro from you and basically doing the same thing. Or buying your entire Mac Pro from you if you want

⏹️ ▶️ John to get rid of the whole thing. Who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do, but I don’t know how much it would really help you. Well, it would be an upgrade.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, because it’s two years newer. The CPUs are better. I don’t know. But I have look at it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s that that like that’s filling me with a feeling of dread like having you examine my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac see if it’s good enough

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be better it’ll be in better condition than mine believe me like I try to take care of it but as the children become

⏹️ ▶️ John more mobile and more violent than things that are on the floor are

⏹️ ▶️ John in the path of you’ll see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I’m actually looking forward to getting it on my desk to try to like you know I’ll zip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tie all the cables to the desk leg so they can’t be pulled much and I try to like really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clean everything up off the floor It also really help with dust management in the room anyway

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you want to talk for another two hours about the Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my god. Can we please be done? Who are you? Oh? Seriously,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so bored right now. It defies description

⏹️ ▶️ John Did you watch the videos of them? Unboxing or the pictures of them unboxing and the videos I’m looking

⏹️ ▶️ John at the the Mac Pro and the Mac world site Oh, no, it’s pretty it’s it’s pretty sexy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every picture. I’ve seen so far. It’s been covered in fingerprints

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well, yeah, it definitely says

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something

⏹️ ▶️ John so the good thing about it is unlike an iOS device It’s not meant to be picked up when it’s used so you can put it in place

⏹️ ▶️ John on your desk get out your little Microfiber cloth polish it up and they just don’t touch it again because why do you need to

⏹️ ▶️ John touch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it? I bet the same people who touched monitors. I hate those people I bet those people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Will like walk up like hey, what kind of computer is that and put their finger all over? Oh, that’s why you need

⏹️ ▶️ John to electrify the case

⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh My god, you

⏹️ ▶️ John get some current running through that and maybe put some blades on the fan on the top so they stick what’s inside here

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, so I’m gonna be an idiot and ask one Mac pro related question so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey friend of the show Jason Snell dear friend of the show of the show Jason Snell has has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey taken a video and sent it to John of the fan in the Mac Pro. John, would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you like to expound at all upon what that video told you?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so he took the video with his phone or other portable thing. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you’ve got the background noise elimination that all these phones do. But the thing is, he put the phone like

⏹️ ▶️ John inside, inside the top of the Mac Pro, right? So at that

⏹️ ▶️ John range, it is not canceling out the noise of that fan because it is like millimeters

⏹️ ▶️ John from the noise of that fan. And he listened to the audio after recording it

⏹️ ▶️ John and said, yeah, that’s more or less what it sounds like when I’m putting my ear next to the thing. And it

⏹️ ▶️ John seems super quiet. You can’t tell how much you’re going to be able to hear it from far away because from far

⏹️ ▶️ John away, you know, again, the noise canceling comes in or whatever. But were you to stick your ear up to the thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s kind of like on my television set where the same guy the video was taking it from like back on his couch was like and you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John hear anything but of course you can’t cuz you’re back by the couch but when he took the phone all the way around to the back of the thing and shoved that up

⏹️ ▶️ John against the fans you could hear what those fans sound like and the quality of the sound of the

⏹️ ▶️ John fans is kind of what you’re coming with so like okay if I can hear it from the couch what I’m going to hear is a noise like

⏹️ ▶️ John this and it’s you know how high a pitch you know is it even is it uneven is it wishy is it one

⏹️ ▶️ John frequency or a big mess and this was very like whispery

⏹️ ▶️ John whisper quiet like kind of like the asymmetrical fans on the the retina MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John Pros when they you know when they zoom up they sound more kind of like white

⏹️ ▶️ John noise whooshing and less like droning or single frequency kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. So I am completely confident that this new Mac Pro will

⏹️ ▶️ John be way way quieter than even my existing Mac Pro and this Mac Pro is very quiet compared to my power Mac G5

⏹️ ▶️ John so things are going in the right direction definitely and at this point I totally believe the claim that the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is as quiet as a Mac Mini but if I had a Mac Mini or a new Mac Pro my desk I’ll be able to hear it

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s kind of like my TV is it gonna be less noisy than my current computer yes it definitely is and so

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an upgrade so thumbs up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah that’s a lot of people have said that the old Mac Pro was loud and I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never found them to be loud I I mean, maybe, like, you know, so I’ve had two. I’ve had the 2008 and the 2010, I guess,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though I bought it in 2012, but I had those two.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’ve never, like, one of the reasons why I love the Mac Pro so much is that every

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other Mac, if you put the CPUs under a full sustained load, like if you’re running a handbrake encoder

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something like that, the fan will spin up very audibly and it’s annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the Mac Pro, even at full CPU load, It’s either

⏹️ ▶️ Marco completely the same as, like the 2008 that you had and I used to have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that didn’t sound any different under full load to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John It sounds different when I’m gaming because of the stupid, the cooler on the video card has

⏹️ ▶️ John an unpleasant whine when I get going in games.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, as does the 2010 one, actually. But, oh God, GPU fans.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the best things about the new Mac Pro is that there is no GPU fan. There has never been a GPU fan

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is not a piece of crap. I’ve never, ever even heard of one that was not terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m just so excited that this 2008 fan has not died in all the years, because all my other ones went bad way before

⏹️ ▶️ John this. But that was one of the innovations that Apple talks about in designing this thing, is

⏹️ ▶️ John the realization that there’s almost no situation in which all of the hot parts

⏹️ ▶️ John are hot at the same time. So it’s wasteful to have separate coolers on each CPU and on each GPU,

⏹️ ▶️ John because you’ll never in a situation where all CPUs and all GPUs are flat out at the same time, or very

⏹️ ▶️ John rarely will be. And if, if you know, if just one GPU is hot and the other one isn’t, and all

⏹️ ▶️ John that noise and energy you’re spending trying to cool the parts that don’t need to be cool is just wasted and produces extra noise. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John the total sum total of your noise is never going to be low, be below a certain level. If you have three fans,

⏹️ ▶️ John one for each CPU or you know, or one for the GPU or whatever. So the innovation of the Mac pro is,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, let’s make them one entire cooling zone for all of them, one fan for all

⏹️ ▶️ John components, have them in the central chimney, and then I guess just make sure that that gigantic cooling fan has

⏹️ ▶️ John the capacity to cool all three if they’re cranked up, but when they’re not cranked up you don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John your ceiling for noise, or your floor for noise, is much much lower because you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have like this minimum amount of noise just to keep the fans spinning on, you know, I wonder if they

⏹️ ▶️ John would ever consider it as part of their thing to do kind of like a stop-start thing or the cylinder deactivation or all the

⏹️ ▶️ John other thing that car engines do. What if we just stop the fans on the other thing? We’ll have three fans,

⏹️ ▶️ John but we’ll just stop them when they don’t need to be cooled. But I imagine that was probably not a good idea. So they went with

⏹️ ▶️ John one gigantic fan on really expensive ball bearings. And I totally applaud that design as someone who’s obsessed

⏹️ ▶️ John with noise. If you’re going to make a pro computer and try to figure out how to make it quiet, I think this is a very clever

⏹️ ▶️ John and interesting design.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s one of the reasons why I switched to the Mac Pro is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was driving me crazy whenever I would try to record a podcast that the fan on my Mac Pro would spin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up and I would hear it. And I’m obsessed with the audio quality. I want our show to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sound really good. And the fact that that was spinning up drove me nuts. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac Pro has always, this is one of the things that makes it a pro computer, it has always handled

⏹️ ▶️ Marco heavy loads gracefully. You know, like the laptops, you can put them under a sustained load,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you’re definitely gonna hear it. They’re gonna be very, very hot, and you’re kinda worried, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco am I shortening the life of something by doing this very often?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s another reason laptops suck, and that’s why Casey needs to get it, because they sound awful. They sound like they’re in pain.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I know this because I have an older generation MacBook Air that my wife uses, and my son plays Minecraft

⏹️ ▶️ John on it all the time, and it’s not a powerful GPU, but Minecraft is not a complicated game, but he runs Minecraft full screen

⏹️ ▶️ John on a 27-inch display on an old MacBook Air, and that thing sounds like it’s dying for the entire time

⏹️ ▶️ John he’s using it. It sounds like, help me, save me, just that terrible, like

⏹️ ▶️ John really urgent whine of that tiny little fan and this tiny little case and the whole thing’s getting hot

⏹️ ▶️ John back there. And it’s like, you play that on my Mac Pro, it sounds no different than it does when it’s idling in the Finder,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? As it should, because it’s just playing Minecraft. But yeah, it’s torture to take anything

⏹️ ▶️ John powerful and try to shove it into this little tiny skinny sliver a case with a heat pump attached

⏹️ ▶️ John to it and some weird asymmetrical fans trying to suck air out sideways and blow through these tiny vents.

⏹️ ▶️ John Desktop, it’s the way to go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, it handles it so much more gracefully. And it also, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though it’s unlikely to happen at any given moment, the fact is, like laptops

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and other consumer-level stuff, I’ve had more kernel panics on laptops than I have on Mac Pros.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’ve used laptops and Mac Pros respectively full-time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably about the same amount in total. So I can safely say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve experienced way more kernel panics and instability with laptops than I have with Mac Pros. And there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lots of reason for that. Xeons and Xeon motherboards are all made to higher standard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tolerance. There’s also just ECC RAM, which yeah, the chances are that your RAM’s not going to have an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco error, or if it does have an error, it’s somewhere you won’t notice it. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you use a computer enough and that might happen a couple times a year. And you might notice that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, ECC RAM is… That’s another reason I would want to not get an iMac. I don’t think they have ECC

⏹️ ▶️ John yet. You know how paranoid I am about HFS+, ECC RAM is just one extra layer of protection because I know…

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, we hit a… Somebody just completed a bingo board. There is no safety net

⏹️ ▶️ John down at the bottom for the file system. So at least I can have a little bit of protection in RAM

⏹️ ▶️ John and hopefully correct some errors there Before it gets to my disc yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, okay, so get it so get a Mac Pro and and either either play games at low Frame rates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and grumble about it But you are very good at grumbling or just get a gaming PC and grumble about that either

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way you’re grumbling about something

⏹️ ▶️ John Hopefully it won’t be low frame rates I’m waiting I’m waiting the results of the tests And you know if anyone at Apple wants to send me a Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro as a reward for keeping the faith all those years and Posting a picture of a matte black sports

⏹️ ▶️ John car saying that I want the next Mac Pro to look like that Well, they got the color right, I guess.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not matte, though.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know. Well, you know, beggars can’t be choosers.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It

⏹️ ▶️ John also

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have any internal drives or PCI Express slots. So, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We made you exactly the car you wanted, but there’s no seats. It’s really quiet, though. So, Casey, do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want to talk about anything else?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would do anything in the world to talk about anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John Are you convinced to buy a desktop now?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, my god. I am more convinced than ever that I do not want a desktop because I don’t want to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have to worry about all this bullshit that you guys are worrying about. Ah, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey killing me. Killing me! Can we talk about something a little more entertaining?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Please.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What else is on the list?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, there’s a lot of things and most of them are boring.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ooh, button shapes. That sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey entertaining.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No. God no. Please no. Please. Please no. Can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we whine about some stuff that’s not Mac Pro related? So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would either like I will leave it to John. I would either like to whine about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Outlook 2011 or software development methodologies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and big business. So John, take your pick.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re not doing software development methodologies now. We’ve only got Yeah, we don’t have time for that. So I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will excuse me, Marco and I have time for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, no, because this show should not be that long. But yes, I have to go to 11. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so we don’t have time. But that’s gonna be like a whole show’s worth of stuff, even though I have, like I said, I’m not preparing at all for methodologies.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I feel confident that Casey and I alone can complain about that for a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey As much

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as I want to yell at you. It’s very true.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I put Outlook 2011 in there. But if you have some Outlook 2011 things that you’d like to share, feel free

⏹️ ▶️ John to take it away.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, my god. So I don’t have anything hyper specific

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to share. However, I will say that Outlook 2011, as with all of Office 2011,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is a steaming pile of horse manure. And I cannot fathom

⏹️ ▶️ Casey having to use Outlook or the rest of Office on a Mac full-time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do so as little as possible, and even that is too much because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Microsoft does not take Office for the Mac seriously. None of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it seems native, none of it makes sense, none of it really fits in with anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else on the platform. Software update happens constantly, it’s obnoxious,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it gets in the way, it makes you stop everything. Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ Casey software update makes you stop Safari, I don’t even understand why they’re related except maybe silverlight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is dead. I yeah, it’s okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John My favorite thing about office 2011 is the is the little Casey knows this whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John it is the little yellow thing that comes up in the corner to tell you like you know calendar notifications

⏹️ ▶️ John like oh you’ve got this meeting in 10 minutes you know you know the thing I’m talking about Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no because I probably turned it off because it’s terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John I like being reminded when I have a meeting like I’ll be there at work and the little yellow thing will pop up and say you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John got a meeting in 15 minutes and it’s got a little snooze button and a dismiss button and they stack up inside there. It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John that interface that I mind, it’s the thing that runs that little yellow window that pops up

⏹️ ▶️ John is this application that has an alarm clock icon. It’s like a blue old-fashioned alarm clock with bells on it and it’s actually

⏹️ ▶️ John a pretty nice icon. The thing that drives me nuts about that particular feature

⏹️ ▶️ John is that on my Mac at home that does not have an SSD, when I wake it from sleep,

⏹️ ▶️ John usually it’ll be like, oh while I was was sleeping, these events happen that it wants to like tell you about the events that you either missed or that

⏹️ ▶️ John are upcoming or whatever. And so the little alarm clock guy will appear in my dock

⏹️ ▶️ John and start bouncing. And at one time I tried counting the bounces, you may not know this, but

⏹️ ▶️ John OS 10 has for many years and continues to have it’s either OS 10 or the app, but I think it’s the OS has

⏹️ ▶️ John a limit on the number of times that will allow any icon to bounce in the dock. And after a certain point, it just stops bouncing, it gives

⏹️ ▶️ John up. And I’ve seen the I can’t give up bouncing because it will grind away

⏹️ ▶️ John at my crappy spinning disc and just bounce there forever just bounce bounce below I

⏹️ ▶️ John think I counted to 75 or a hundred or something at one point and then I just stopped counting eventually it will stop bouncing

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what it’s doing this during this time I think I’ve looked at FS usage a few times and seen some random like

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft database stuff that it’s doing in the background or something the result of it

⏹️ ▶️ John Bouncing there for like two minutes three minutes five minutes. God knows how long

⏹️ ▶️ John is to bring up a tiny yellow window that says, here are your two meetings that you missed or that are coming 15 minutes from now.

⏹️ ▶️ John That is an inappropriate amount of disk activity and waiting time

⏹️ ▶️ John to bring up a little window that tells me which meetings I missed. So God knows what it’s doing, but it’s doing something terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that’s not why I put this in the notes. That’s the thing that drives me nuts the most when I wake my Mac Pro at home

⏹️ ▶️ John and see it grind away. I mean, maybe it’s blocking on some network call. I don’t know what it’s doing, Grinds

⏹️ ▶️ John the grinds the hell out of my desk to bring and I’m surprised that people who don’t have SSDs have not noticed

⏹️ ▶️ John that And not file bugs against it But the reason I put this in here that my biggest

⏹️ ▶️ John peeve about outlook 2010, which I use for work because I have to

⏹️ ▶️ John Because there are things that Apple mail has not done successfully with my exchange server at work

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe the new version of Apple mail does but I’m always afraid to go back to it because talking about flaky mail programs in my experience Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John has been worse than that look better interface better potential features but worse reliability especially with Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff but the reason I put it in there is that Alex 2010 has since it’s the dawn of the software

⏹️ ▶️ John and it continues to this day after many many updates to have one of probably the most user

⏹️ ▶️ John hostile small feature like it’s something like oh that’s not a big deal that shouldn’t be bothering

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like deleting your data or whatever you say user hostiles like is it is it is it throwing ads in your face? Is

⏹️ ▶️ John it deleting stuff? Is it corrupting your data? Is it crashing? Those are all user hostile, yes, but

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re so over the top that everyone can agree on. This is the type of thing that when I describe it it’s not going to sound like a

⏹️ ▶️ John big deal until you’ve lived with it for I guess two years now or whenever Outlook 2011 came out. I don’t remember

⏹️ ▶️ John if it came out in 2011 or not. Selection and validation.

⏹️ ▶️ John What I do with my mailboxes a lot of the time is select groups of messages either by doing select

⏹️ ▶️ John all, by clicking one and holding on shift and clicking one lower down or by dragging them all the different ways you can select groups

⏹️ ▶️ John of messages I’m gonna do something with them I’m gonna mark them as read I’m gonna drag them all into another folder I’m gonna do something

⏹️ ▶️ John with them multiple selections right very often it’s select all and then mark as read

⏹️ ▶️ John because I get a lot of email at work for mailing lists and they go on to a folder and you know sometimes you just want to mark certain sections of them

⏹️ ▶️ John read or whatever selecting any message in the message list in Outlook 2011 is

⏹️ ▶️ John Just merely a suggestion to the program you can select them you can select them with your mouse

⏹️ ▶️ John Immediately your selection is removed You can hit command a to select all immediate your selection is entirely

⏹️ ▶️ John invalid and what I mean is when it’s removed is you you? Did command a they all highlighted a millisecond

⏹️ ▶️ John later. They all unhighlighted Why does it do that because it hates you with the fiery passion?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know why Sometimes it’s like a smart folder like I’ll click on my unread smart folder to show me all

⏹️ ▶️ John unread messages when you hit command A it will select all the ones that are currently there

⏹️ ▶️ John but then the smart folder will grind along a little bit and say oh I found two new messages that are also unread it will invalidate your entire

⏹️ ▶️ John selection and so you just have to wait there until the number stops going up have you found all the unread messages in that is

⏹️ ▶️ John it safe for me to hit command A and you never are you just you think it’s done the number goes up to like 27 you hit

⏹️ ▶️ John command A oh no actually 32 selection invalidated hit command A again you think you’re safe you go

⏹️ ▶️ John to hit command T to mark all the red up no sorry invalidated, we found one more message. Even in message

⏹️ ▶️ John lists that are not like that, that are not part of smart folders. The first time you select one

⏹️ ▶️ John message, two message, five messages, the first time, forget it. That’s just like a trial run. Your selection will immediately

⏹️ ▶️ John be gone. You will never be able to get to a command fast enough for the selection to be highlighted. And this is the type of bug

⏹️ ▶️ John when I first saw it like, Oh, look, silly, a 1.0 bug. Surely they’ll get rid of this. But years later,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is still how this program behaves. It does not care that you selected things. You want to select things you have

⏹️ ▶️ John to enter in determined to battle with the program to get your selection to stay. And again,

⏹️ ▶️ John it doesn’t sound like it’s a big deal, but I find it incredibly maddening. And I spend a

⏹️ ▶️ John lot of my day just going, select, unselected, select, unselected, select, unselected, perform operation, select,

⏹️ ▶️ John unselected, select, unselected, select, unselected, perform operation. I don’t understand how this program

⏹️ ▶️ John continues to ship in this form. Like, how can the people at Microsoft use it? How can anybody use it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can tell you right now. Why do you use it?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because we have to do for work. You think the people in Microsoft have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to for work? If you didn’t use it, what would you use instead?

⏹️ ▶️ John The Gmail web interface?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No mail. Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John No, but I

⏹️ ▶️ John use it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey what I use for my

⏹️ ▶️ John actual

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey mail.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, because if you had to connect to exchange, you would use

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I would forward all my mail to Gmail. Against the against corporate policy.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you can’t do I mean, I use it like and the thing is I don’t I liked entourage the purple

⏹️ ▶️ John one that came before this yellow pissy one I like the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey entourage mother of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God. You’re the only person I’ve ever met that actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John well

⏹️ ▶️ John I like Clarice emailer the Clarice emailer guys left

⏹️ ▶️ John The original classic Mac version of entourage was really awesome had a great icons from icon factory It was a great mail

⏹️ ▶️ John program the OS 10 version of entourage not so great But the thing I like about it is I like the integration of my mail

⏹️ ▶️ John application in my calendar into one thing some people Hate that and they want it to be separate I like them to be combined

⏹️ ▶️ John Outlook would not be so terrible if it just worked Like if it didn’t invalidate my selection if things work there

⏹️ ▶️ John is supposed to if the meetings that I accepted in Outlook 2011 Stayed accepted

⏹️ ▶️ John and didn’t make me reaccept them. That’s the other thing that does it makes me reaccept meetings hundreds of times There was gray out on my calendars

⏹️ ▶️ John if I’ve never accepted them accept them go to series accept the series next day they’re all unhighlighted again as if I didn’t accept

⏹️ ▶️ John them. Again, for years of this, it’s like, this is all Microsoft from the client

⏹️ ▶️ John to the server to everywhere, everything is like modern versions. It just doesn’t work correctly. And

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s still many things that I have to open my Windows VM and go into the quote-unquote real outlook

⏹️ ▶️ John and do things from there because the Mac version can’t do them or does them badly or wrong or in some strange way.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the selection and validation is, I’ll remember that to the day I die, that once there was this program

⏹️ ▶️ John that would not respect my ability to select things, and it stayed that way for years and nobody cared.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like, maybe it’s just me. Maybe it’s some crazy bug in my computer. That’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John a problem in the program. It’s some crazy extension that I don’t even know I’m running because I’m not running any extensions at work that I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John aware of. I do. I have some, you know, I can’t think of the cause that

⏹️ ▶️ John would cause me to be the only person who has selection and validation. And maybe people can write into the show and say, yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John it outlook 2011 has been invalidating my selection for three years as well. You’re not alone. If

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody writes in like that, then I’ll just have to think that there’s something crazy going on in my computer. But no,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s two computers, my home and work. So the same thing is on is infecting my home and work computer. It’s got

⏹️ ▶️ John to be the program. It’s got to be outlook 2011.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Thank you to our two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sponsors this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Please,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey please wait. After an hour and a half of you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two talking about the Mac pro, you’re not going to give me more than 15 minutes about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stupid Microsoft stuff. You can have the after show if you want. Oh my God.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hate you so much. However, I will say dear, dear friend of the show, Merlin man

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has added his commentary, which I just put into the chat and I’m very happy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that he did. I have no idea what it means, but candidly, I never know what Merlin’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talking about until 20 minutes after he’s finished because I’m not as smart as he is.

⏹️ ▶️ John Where did you put it? I don’t see this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to our two sponsors this week, Warby Parker and Hover, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we will see you next week. And

⏹️ ▶️ John now the snow is falling, their kids are building snowmen.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental, accidental, holiday fun time, holiday

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fun time. John’s gonna make snow angels, Marco and Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are gonna let him It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental, Syracuse

⏹️ ▶️ John Angels, holiday fun time And you can find the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show notes deep in Santa’s beard

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And

⏹️ ▶️ John follow them on Twitter for holiday fun time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cheer C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S K-C-L-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-G

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mongo, Armin, S-I-R-A-C

⏹️ ▶️ John USA Syrup Cucur It’s an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accidental, accidental snowball fight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s an accidental, accidental holiday tech

⏹️ ▶️ John podcast so long. Oh, see, he liked Entourage

⏹️ ▶️ John too. See, Claire’s emailer was great. The first version of Entourage was really great. The OS X version

⏹️ ▶️ John was less great. Outlook 2011 needs to die a terrible death. Or just work.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, pick one or the other. If it started working, suddenly I’d be like, wow, this program, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I might like it again or something. but it doesn’t take much to just make it into a

⏹️ ▶️ John device of torture.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But what reason does Microsoft have to improve it?

⏹️ ▶️ John None. I don’t, but here’s the thing. I don’t understand how, how does something like that, like, even though this

⏹️ ▶️ John is not a big problem, it’s something that every single person who uses this program has

⏹️ ▶️ John to be experiencing. Like, am I the only one this is happening to? Are my two computers that I ever use it on? And so

⏹️ ▶️ John if something like that happens, if you were a developer of this program and you’re forced to run it every day because you write the program,

⏹️ ▶️ John like you’d use it for your email because you work at Microsoft, you have a Mac, you work in the Mac business unit, you write,

⏹️ ▶️ John you are one of the primary authors of Outlook. How could you tolerate this bug? You know what it’s like when a program that you

⏹️ ▶️ John wrote that you use has a bug in it. You go fix it like that day, because there’s no way that you’re gonna let that stand. You wrote the damn

⏹️ ▶️ John program. You know exactly what’s going wrong, and you go fix it. But nope, years pass, not

⏹️ ▶️ John fixed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that presumes a culture of valuing quality over things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like ship dates, and Microsoft has not been known for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re rushing to meet ship dates. I’m saying like a day to day it’s it must be annoying these people like Casey you

⏹️ ▶️ John use it do you do is this selection and validation thing ever happened to you?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Am I allowed to answer truthfully?

⏹️ ▶️ John Go ahead. I’m I’m ready for the truth. Nope. Never happens to you, huh?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I freaking hate outlook. I really hate outlook. This selection invalid invalidation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing never happens to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John I should take some movies of it. And the most exciting thing about it is the first one, the first

⏹️ ▶️ John one never takes, right? So you’ll switch over to the program and you’ll go and you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John see a bunch of messages and you just know, like, I see three messages there and I want to mark all

⏹️ ▶️ John three as spam or something like that. And you just know that the first

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to click one of them, it’s going to highlight, you’re going to shift click down to the next one, it’s going to remove your entire selection.

⏹️ ▶️ John That all that action is going to be wasted, but you go through the motions anyway, And then you do

⏹️ ▶️ John it the second time and it takes and it just becomes this thing that you do first one It doesn’t count.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So hold on are we officially in the after show?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Why the fuck are you making me listen to an hour and a half of Mac Pro? Discussion

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I get 12 minutes of listening to John bitch about something that affects me and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you it doesn’t affect you It does well in principle it affects me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then Marco decides. Oh the king is bored So we’re gonna end the show that’s pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey much it. Yep I’m so angry

⏹️ ▶️ John the people in the chat room pretty much hit it on the head with Marco And I have been waiting for a Mac Pro for a

⏹️ ▶️ John long time It’s kind of the genesis of the show was around the time that we got the fake Mac Pro update It’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John reason we have the icon that we discussed at the top of the show Now the new Mac Pros are finally out and we can configure

⏹️ ▶️ John them and Marco bought one surely that’s deserving of an entire show’s worth of discussion. I think that’s reasonable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I even cut stuff. I could have gone more on the Mac Pro. I could have too.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so angry at you two right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco now. I could have gone into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Turbo Boost more. I could have gone into the workstation pricing from HP and Dell.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John There’s so much more I could have gone into. We’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John save that for a future show and let me know how much Casey likes it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No! No! Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John god. If anyone at Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John wants to send Casey a complimentary Mac Pro so he can stop…

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh god.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will use it as a trash can?

⏹️ ▶️ John I looked at the picture that you tweeted of your little of your little setup, Casey. You’ve got three glasses

⏹️ ▶️ John of liquid sitting right to the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey left of your

⏹️ ▶️ John laptop, which is open with a keyboard in front of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, it is directly to the right of my laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, whatever. Yeah. All right. So but the point is, if you were to knock those over, they would spill directly into the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John of your crappy laptop.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re right. But because I’m not an idiot, and I’m also a professional, I will not knock

⏹️ ▶️ Casey them

⏹️ ▶️ John over. Uh huh. Yeah, right. But that’s something a sober person would

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey say. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey son of a no just kidding

⏹️ ▶️ John It just seems like an ill-advised arrangement

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve got the dual monitor problem of like you are aligned with the space where there is no monitor So you’re constantly looking to you that you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You are so high maintenance I cannot believe that that any piece of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey electronics actually fits your ridiculous requirements

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it doesn’t. He just

⏹️ ▶️ John picks whatever’s closest. That I want to have the monitor in front of me? Yeah, I’m a crazy person. You’re right.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, God.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, that actually is one of the reasons why I prefer one giant monitor to two smaller ones is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you have two smaller ones, I would always just kind of sit in front of the left one, center myself to the left one, but then the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right one’s kind of out there like in New Jersey. I don’t know. It’s kind of hard to see.

⏹️ ▶️ John As someone who, as I pointed out before, was using two monitors when you guys were probably learning to walk,

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey always had the

⏹️ ▶️ John main monitor was in front of me and the auxiliary monitor was off to the side. And it was a clear arrangement

⏹️ ▶️ John because the auxiliary monitor was a black and white nine inch CRT. So clearly very auxiliary and

⏹️ ▶️ John the 24 bit color, huge 14 inch Trinitron display was in front of me. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John it was clear that’s the real monitor. And the other thing is place where I might put a pallet once in a while.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh God, I’m so angry at you two. Seriously, this is the most boring ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve ever been a part of. I think I said 12 words during that entire episode.

⏹️ ▶️ John You could have joined in about what your feelings were on the value proposition of a Mac Pro for someone

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey who wants to play games.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s no goddamn way I have any thoughts about the Mac Pro. Oh, God, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco so boring. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next week we’ll talk about software methodologies, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey then I will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco become you, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco take over the whole show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey For the love of Christ, I hope

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John so. Oh, Marco will have things

⏹️ ▶️ John to say about software.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know he will. I know. Oh, so angry right now. There are so many

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bees in my bonnet. What is the Merlin line? What is it something about my?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But something about my is all angry he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey listening right now and I feel like an idiot but that’s right So fired up right

⏹️ ▶️ John now I don’t even know which expression of his you’re thinking of and I know all of his expressions

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think you you may have be at your limit

⏹️ ▶️ John You may have been over served tonight sir. I still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hate all of you. How did we talk so long about the Mac Pro? It was so boring.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is supposed to be our Christmas special and it’s so boring.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do like You Might Need a Drink as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That is currently the top

⏹️ ▶️ John voted. I disapprove of alcohol related titles.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, fine. You might need a Sprite as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, because then, unless we’re being sponsored by Sprite, and you know, Lex should get on that, but yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You might need a lemon-lime flavored soft drink as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, because then you give me Sierra Mist, which is not the same.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my god,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I hate you. Have you gotten that

⏹️ ▶️ John one where it’s like, you know, I know the Coke-Pepsi people hate it, where you go into a restaurant and it says you can have a Coke and they say

⏹️ ▶️ John Pepsi okay, and then you have to kill them, right? At least

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Coke and

⏹️ ▶️ John Pepsi are trying to be like each other. They are direct competitors, Pepsi is trying to be like Coke, Coke’s trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John be like Coke, you know, they’re trying to make the same product. Sierra Mist is about as much the same product as

⏹️ ▶️ John Sprite as Root Beer is the same product as Sprite. Sierra Mist is better. Sierra Mist

⏹️ ▶️ John is vile donkey piss. It is not as bad as Mountain Dew, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s close.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sean, I love you. Just like that, you’ve redeemed all of

⏹️ ▶️ John this. No, I didn’t think anybody in the world actually liked Sierra Mist. I thought it was just something that they would make

⏹️ ▶️ John people take when you’re a restaurant who is like, you know, belongs to whatever brand. I think Sprite is Coke and Sierra Mist is

⏹️ ▶️ John Pepsi or whatever. I don’t remember what it is. But I was like, they would force you to take it because you would be like, okay, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John now a Pepsi restaurant and we force you to take Sierra Mist that no human would ever willingly order. And so when I say,

⏹️ ▶️ John can I have a Sprite? And they say Sierra Mist, okay, that’s worse than if you ask for a Coke and I say Pepsi, okay. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not okay. Wow. Seven up and Sprite, then okay. I feel like you

⏹️ ▶️ John have a reasonable substitution seven up versus sprite is like Pepsi versus coke like it’s a reasonable substitution

⏹️ ▶️ John CR missus is not a reasonable substitution for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no no no stop Okay, so here’s the thing Pepsi is better than coke,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but die Everybody

⏹️ ▶️ Casey relax Pepsi is better than coke however diet coke is light years

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ahead of diet Pepsi is

⏹️ ▶️ John not better than coke. You’re aren’t you from the south? What are you talking about?

⏹️ ▶️ John Even Pepsi drinkers don’t think that Pepsi is better than coke They just say they like it better, but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey no one seriously believes

⏹️ ▶️ John that Pepsi is better than coke I mean, come on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so angry so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hate most soda and yet I can tell you that Pepsi sucks compared to coke

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Seriously,

⏹️ ▶️ John is there anybody in the chat room who believes that Pepsi, not that you like Pepsi better than Coke, but who believes that

⏹️ ▶️ John Pepsi is actually better than Coke?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really curious. I bet no one. No one. I mean, I’ve never heard of anybody saying that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And diet, like why bother?

⏹️ ▶️ John And diet, yes, is like which carcinogen do you find the least distasteful? This is

⏹️ ▶️ John ridiculous. I mean, diet soda, seriously, no nutritional value,

⏹️ ▶️ John possible cancer causing, tastes terrible. Like it is the anti,

⏹️ ▶️ John it is like, what’s the worst thing I can put into my body and not die immediately?

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, diet soda, seriously, like at the very least, I feel like they should be putting, I mean, they take out the caffeine,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it has nothing then. It’s just completely devoid of any possible value. It is just giving you cancer.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s all it’s doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just like any like all the sugar substitutes they all like I can taste them all very clearly and they all taste

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like crap like it like it’s when you this is my little side rant we’re like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going shopping and trying to read food labels like you have to read any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco food label as if a lawyer is reading it like like you have to read it like a lawyer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like when they say like you know oh this is natural strawberry flavor if I wait a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco minute you know what what does natural actually mean in the context of food and and you know the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strawberry flavor may contain any strawberries probably not and like like there’s like you have to like you have to think like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what is the most sinister disgusting explanation that could fit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco within the phrasing they’ve chosen legally and that’s probably what it’s made from.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, it’s not good. It’s not good at all. And of course you know regular soda is terrible

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s just full of actual sugar or full of corn syrup. Have

⏹️ ▶️ John you guys ever done that blind taste of sugar versus corn syrup? Like, you know, Mexican Coke

⏹️ ▶️ John versus regular?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have.

⏹️ ▶️ John I cannot tell.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought I could tell until I did the blind test, and then I was like, nope, can’t tell.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the thing is, they don’t taste different, and I can’t tell which is which. It’s exactly the same.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. You know what I’ve learned this episode of ATP? I’ve learned that I’m so goddamn thankful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I’m not as picky as you two.

⏹️ ▶️ John We just said we couldn’t tell the difference. If we were would be like, oh, I can totally tell the Mexican is different and nope, can’t tell.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s why someday I should have Marco make me coffee so I can try it and spit it out in front of him.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, I’ve done that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey done that. It doesn’t end well for you. I promise.

⏹️ ▶️ John I always wanted to maybe, you know, maybe I’m just missing the problem. You know, I’m very sensitive to bitter

⏹️ ▶️ John taste being a super taster and also I would imagine I would hate his coffee as much as much as I hate

⏹️ ▶️ John all coffee, but it would be humble break. It’s the it’s the only thing

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m super at. So, you know, I have to got that going for me

⏹️ ▶️ John Or against me as the case, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All I know is diet coke is the best drink in the world

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You and your sprite

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t I don’t have that in the house. I don’t drink it. It’s terrible. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey sugar. Why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey die coke?

⏹️ ▶️ John No Sprite.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s just when I go out. I I very often their water tastes gross or is weird and

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want an alcoholic drink so I go with Sprite which is less,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, I like it better than Coke most of the time.