Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

35: Sea-Level Executives

Ebook-publishing woes, stealing Burberry’s CEO, ARM MacBooks, and speculation on next week’s announcement.

Episode Description:
  • Ebook-publishing woes and trying to coordinate a specific release date.
  • Apple hiring the CEO of Burberry to head their retail division, and the Louis Vuitton logo.
  • The challenges of retail leadership.
  • Touch ID impressions after a weekend of heavy use, and whether you should keep your phone secure for other people's benefit.
  • How Touch ID could be used in Macs, and whether ARM MacBooks would be worth the transition costs.
  • Speculation on next week's product announcements.
  • Where a potential 12" Retina MacBook Pro could fit in the lineup.

Sponsored by:

  • Transporter: Your own private cloud-storage drive. Get $50 off with discount code ATP50 through November 11.
  • Squarespace: Everything you need to create an exceptional website. Use promo code ATP10 for 10% off.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann You can use that Marco Arment plus 30 minutes skip button at this point if

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann you’re not interested at all. But, by the way, great idea, huh? Wouldn’t it be great to have a plus 30

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann minute skip button? You get to John Struacuse’s second bullet point.

⏹️ ▶️ John Singleton, Boston, that’s all I have to say.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, you are such a baby.

⏹️ ▶️ John The chances of me going to that one are much higher.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, they’re still mediocre at best, let’s be honest.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would say they’re over 50%. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If they did it like next door to your house, would it be like, you know, 60% chance of you going? I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess it really depends on the timing of OS X releases, because this year, even if it was in Boston,

⏹️ ▶️ John like I did, while you guys were there doing your thing in Singleton, I was doing review stuff. So

⏹️ ▶️ John that review stuff would not have gotten done if I was there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Since you brought it up, how’s it going?

⏹️ ▶️ John So they made the announcement of the October 22nd, whatever, iPad, whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple special event with no mention of a price or a date.

⏹️ ▶️ John At this point I am resigned to the fact that I’m not going to know a price or a date until the public

⏹️ ▶️ John knows, and when will the public know? Maybe they’ll know on the 22nd. Maybe they’ll release Mavericks on the 22nd.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I just have to plan for that. So the current plan is act as if Apple is going

⏹️ ▶️ John to announce on stage on the 22nd, oh by the way, Mavericks is available for download now at such

⏹️ ▶️ John and such a price, and that means I have to have, you know, an ebook ready to purchase

⏹️ ▶️ John on the 22nd. Which means I have to submit the ebook probably tomorrow,

⏹️ ▶️ John which means I had to get all the information finalized in the review, make sure it’s somewhat coherent

⏹️ ▶️ John even though it does not contain information about pricing, because it can’t, because I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so that’s what I did before the podcast was got that E-book ready. I haven’t actually submitted

⏹️ ▶️ John it yet because I’m waiting on One last pass of copy edit copy editing and then tomorrow I’m gonna submit

⏹️ ▶️ John it got it I don’t know if you guys have ever used iTunes producer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’s just just like Apple, too I mean, I haven’t used iTunes connect but there’s iTunes

⏹️ ▶️ John connect. Is that is that an app that you run on your Mac as well?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, thank God. Although it’s you know, actually, I don’t know if that would make it better or worse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I mean you could make a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty terrible native app, too

⏹️ ▶️ John I was going to say that this, like in any other system, for example, like Amazon or whatever, and their things have their own

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible problems, but you would expect this to be a web app. Hey, there’s a store somewhere on the internet where you can buy

⏹️ ▶️ John digital media. And if you’re a producer of digital media, you can upload things to that store and put them

⏹️ ▶️ John for sale. And you totally expect that to be a web application, but instead it’s this native Mac application,

⏹️ ▶️ John not a particularly nice native Mac application with tons and tons of fields with insufficient

⏹️ ▶️ John room to type in them and not very nicely laid out and you have to go be looking through the giant

⏹️ ▶️ John PDF documentation to figure out what all the fields mean and just you have

⏹️ ▶️ John to do all this stuff locally and save it into this big giant package file and hit this thing that uploads the whole package to Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John Versus being like a web application where you piecemeal add the metadata, add the data, and slowly

⏹️ ▶️ John get the book ready like online where you can see what it’s gonna look like before you finally submit it here. It’s just do everything at once and then press

⏹️ ▶️ John a button and then it just like shoves the whole thing up to Apple and then if you want to modify any information

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you have to modify locally again but only certain fields you can modify and then shove it back up I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John this experience is not confidence inspiring and it is definitely a

⏹️ ▶️ John little bit scary that you have to do all this stuff locally and then press one button and then like you know your

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing sails off into the sunset and then and then presumably gets rejected like I’m assuming that’s the next phase

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice well that isn’t actually that different from the way Xcode apps are uploaded now. Like back,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back, you know, three years ago or so, you, it was basically used a web form and, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there was, there was like a, a separate uploader app that you could use to upload for submissions,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you didn’t have to use it and you’d only ever use it, I think, if it was above a certain size where the web form would time out or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. Um, now though, I think you have to always use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Xcode’s built in native uploader and it’s actually kind of nice because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you still do all the metadata entry on the the web interface which is probably good because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though it’s a pretty terrible web interface I can’t imagine the native version would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantially better because the reason iTunes connects is a terrible web interface is not because web interfaces

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to be terrible it’s example doesn’t really care that much about it being good and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously they could have the same problem with with native app but it is nice to have like for an app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they run a whole bunch of validation steps locally and they run a whole bunch more on the server

⏹️ ▶️ Marco side as soon as you submit and so it can have a nice little feedback mechanism there. Also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it takes care of like some of the code signing stuff way better than it did before. So it is nice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having like that blend of native and web for this kind of thing. I think it’s more just a matter of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much Apple cares about getting it right and with iTunes Connect they’ve had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pretty bad record of that. It’s not that it’s always terrible but But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s never great.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, a lot of my trepidation about this is because this is my first one. So obviously after I do the first one, I’ll sort of know

⏹️ ▶️ John what to expect. Like I’m just pouring over the documentation to make sure, like for example,

⏹️ ▶️ John the on sale date of the book, I have to make sure that’s editable after I submit. And the documentation says it

⏹️ ▶️ John is, but like not, I would like to say it in bold with arrows pointing to the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John and saying, yes, totally, you can submit a book with a for sale date in the future. And then,

⏹️ ▶️ John if for example Mavericks is not released on the 22nd, I need to change the sale date because I can’t put the thing on

⏹️ ▶️ John sale until Mavericks comes out and so on and so forth. So that seems to be the case. I think everything

⏹️ ▶️ John is all in line for that. Although I may set the date to the 23rd just in case, because if the date

⏹️ ▶️ John really is editable, I can always set it back to the 22nd, right? But if the date isn’t editable, at least I have the

⏹️ ▶️ John 22nd to run around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to get Apple to make sure the book doesn’t go for sale on the 23rd.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, if it were anything like the App Store, the way people try to do controlled releases there,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can either do the hold for release and then you click a button and it starts going. But the other thing you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could do, which helps a little bit to avoid some of the cache delays, is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to release it with an availability date way in the future, and then when you’re ready to release,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco set the availability date way in the past. And then it updates and it gets submitted.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It becomes available faster than, I think, any other method. But I’m not entirely sure on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So what system do they have for setting the price? Do you have to set the price in all the various regions that the store

⏹️ ▶️ John is in?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No. You set the price tier, which basically is like the first digit of the price

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the US. And then they have this big chart to show what that is and all the different other currencies. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you pick tier one is 99 cents in the US, and so on to everyone else. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s why all the prices are pretty much locked into that and are all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the same.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s the same thing with the tiering and the iTunes producer. But it does it in a native Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John GUI with this sort of having all the fields. I think they’re all independently editable, but then you have to select them all

⏹️ ▶️ John and then do a mass edit to edit all of them. And for example, I picked the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John type for the book. The choices were new release, digital only, and other. And

⏹️ ▶️ John being the typical person that I am, instead of stopping and going to the documentation and seeing which one it was, I’m just like, well, I’ll just pick a new release

⏹️ ▶️ John for now. And then I looked up what it was later. I said, oh, actually, I should have picked the digital only. So I went to change

⏹️ ▶️ John it to digital only, and digital only was the only choice in the pop-up menu when I selected all of the items. So I had to select each

⏹️ ▶️ John individual territory and change that pop-up menu 200 and something times. So that was fun.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nice.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s not the experience I want. I feel better, in general, I feel

⏹️ ▶️ John better when I’m using a web form to edit information that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John on a server, kind of like, you know, the server is a source of truth and then I’m just editing it, versus

⏹️ ▶️ John having some local thing that I edit and then submit and then, like, I can edit the local thing again

⏹️ ▶️ John and resubmit and what happens is like the diffs get applied, you know, or maybe just totally replaces the content. It’s just,

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel more comfortable picking away at something, slowly making it better, when it’s all, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John uploaded a piece at a time into a web interface and then finally hitting a button, versus doing all of that locally,

⏹️ ▶️ John which of course I can only do on a single machine unless I put the thing in my Dropbox and I don’t know. We’ll see how

⏹️ ▶️ John it goes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So have you gotten to the point that you are writing four different versions of the pricing paragraph

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or paragraphs or section or whatever based on $10, $20, $30 and free? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I wish it was only that section because the other parts of the review make

⏹️ ▶️ John oblique reference to the price in various places. So yeah, I have a version of

⏹️ ▶️ John three different versions. And then plus all the other places in the

⏹️ ▶️ John review where I allude to those versions, and I tried to make the illusions vague enough that they could fit no matter what

⏹️ ▶️ John the price ends up being. But it’s all just very annoying. This is a new complication because in every past year,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ve always announced the date and the price well in advance. And this year, they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John for some reason.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it’s just to troll you, if I’m not mistaken.

⏹️ ▶️ John It is pretty annoying. If you say how could you annoy me the most this would not have occurred to me

⏹️ ▶️ John But it is pretty darn annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I you know, I have to imagine if somebody really tries to annoy you It can’t be that hard to come up with a way

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know last year was Amazon stuff and I’m sure I fully predict this year when we upload the book to Amazon It will

⏹️ ▶️ John also inexplicably not be downloadable onto the iPad because the odds of the odds of Amazon having fixed

⏹️ ▶️ John this problem Seems slim to me because last year when I went through it all I heard from lots of other people like

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah that totally happened to me it’s been happening for a long time like it’s not I wasn’t the first person this happened to

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m sure I won’t be the last in fact it may happen to me again why did it happen what makes it happen

⏹️ ▶️ John what fixes it who knows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah if if the if Amazon system for uploading ebooks is anything at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all like their system for Kindle publications and publishing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a magazine on the Kindle I feel very sorry for you because that was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a miserable

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the good thing about the Amazon system is you submit and then a reasonable amount of time later,

⏹️ ▶️ John like it, it appears, I don’t think a human ever looks at it. So it’s somewhat

⏹️ ▶️ John predictable in that respect, but because the human never looks at it, uh, you

⏹️ ▶️ John probably have difficult time getting a human to fix something about it, which was the problem last year. And the other thing is,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how long that delay is going to be. I think it’s like 24 hours or something like that, but you can’t pick

⏹️ ▶️ John a for sale date. So you submit and then wait, wait, wait, and then it’s for sale.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which really doesn’t go well with not knowing the release date because if someone gets on

⏹️ ▶️ John stage on the 22nd and says, Mavericks is out today, then I can submit to

⏹️ ▶️ John the Amazon store and then wait 24 hours for the Amazon version to be available, which is not ideal.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, this is kind of a world of hurt for you, isn’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know why it has to be so difficult, but really, nobody cares about the one guy writing the reviewer.

⏹️ ▶️ John If it’s good for customers and good for developers, you have the hierarchy of what’s good for

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, then what’s good for its users, and then maybe some other stuff, and then what’s good for developers,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then everything else in the universe, and then what’s good for the one guy writing a review about one of our products.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, let’s change gears for a second to a company that does care about its customers and John Syracuse.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is Transporter by Connected Data. So Transporter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here’s the thing about Transporter, it’s a little hard to describe for a second, so give me a second here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you like Dropbox, then you’ll love Transporter. So Transporter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is basically a hard drive enclosure with network connectivity and software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that goes on your Mac and your iOS and Android I think Android I should check on that at least your iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices. What do you guys check on that? software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that goes on your on your Mac and various mobile devices. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it behaves like Dropbox in it’s in the nice finder integration and being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco able to share a link with people and automatic syncing to other transporter devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But you own this enclosure, and you own the hard drive within it and all the data

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is stored on that hard drive. It’s not stored in their servers somewhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not, you know, stored somewhere the NSA can, you know, get a secret request and get it in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without you knowing. And all transportation of the data between transporters and over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Internet and everything is all encrypted. End-to-end encryption.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, and thanks Casey. Yes, apparently the apps are also available on Android. You can tell how many Android devices that we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use in this podcast. But so Transporter, they used to this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco major 2.0 software update about a month ago and they really made

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it much more nicely integrated with the Finder and you can share a folder with other Transporter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco users, you can share files with anybody, you can just get you know a link to share.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s really everything you can think of that’s cool about Dropbox. You know the public links,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the sharing, the collaboration you can do with Transporter but with so many better features

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can get way more space on the transporter for way less money.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Dropbox charges, let’s say you wanted like a terabyte of data, a 1TB transporter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco costs about 300 bucks. Dropbox charges about $500 per year for that, for,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh excuse me, Dropbox charges $500 a year for half as much storage. So if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to store, you know, more than a few gigs on Dropbox, you’re probably going to have a substantial savings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want to move that to transporter. So you can buy as many of these things as you want. You can buy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one for your home, you can buy one for your work and automatically sync, you can buy, you know, one for your work, one for your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parents house, have it sync there to have an offsite backup, multiple people on a team like you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our team, the three of us, we all live in different places, we can all collaborate by putting files on our transporters.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they will all you know, we can have a folder that’s like the ATP folder that syncs between all of our devices.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we have all these, you know, all these capabilities. Even if you just have one,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can still have, you know, your own computer accessing it, you accessing it from your mobile device,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from anywhere you are, as long as your home internet connection works, and being able to email the share links

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all these other features. So really, it is quite good. They even have a thing where they can,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, similar to the Dropbox app, where you can launch it on your iPhone, and there’s a feature where it can upload

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all your photos to to the Dropbox. Well, Transporter has a similar feature, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unlike the Dropbox one, they upload their photos in full resolution because they have a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more space to play around with because you have these, you know, these terabyte drives in there. So if you want to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get your own Transporter, which I highly suggest, they sell it. It’s an enclosure, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they sell it empty. You can and you can supply your own two and a half inch drive, capacity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can they sell empty for a special price right now because through November 11th they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco having a sale for us. If you use coupon code ATP 50

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco them do. They’ve been sponsoring great podcasts for a while. So that’s that’s saying a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, they sell empty you supply your own hard drive for just 149 with this

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, that sale is valid through November 11, 2013 using coupon code ATP 50

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at checkout from file slash ATP. So once again,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s transporter. It’s awesome. You want it, go get it. It is file

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP coupon code ATP 50 all uppercase. Thank you very much to transporter

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sponsoring the show.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m gonna ask the chat room why it’s a 2.5 inch drive instead of a 3.5 because you know, you can get more space

⏹️ ▶️ John for less money in a 3.5. I don’t think people realize how small these things are. It is

⏹️ ▶️ John it is not a big gigantic thing the size of a bowling pin. It was the kind of shape it is it is very

⏹️ ▶️ John small. And not only is it small, is silent, which I like.

⏹️ ▶️ John So unlike Apple’s, what do you call it, the wireless hub thing that’s like a

⏹️ ▶️ John giant shoebox turned on its end and has a fan in it, this does not. Or if it does have a fan,

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t hear it. We’re just saying something.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann And these things are

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco tiny.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s saying a lot. You could, I was talking about it on a past show, having a whole bunch of these things like all over your house and all over your office.

⏹️ ▶️ John You could do that because they connect to power and ethernet. And they are very small and they’re silent.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s why they’re 2.5.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They do glow, though. I will warn you, I wouldn’t recommend putting it like right next to your face in a bedroom.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s a pleasant glow. It’s not like one of those, like this, you know, this has a light that changes color around the circle,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not like one of those blue LEDs that like, you know what those are like on electronics that shine right in

⏹️ ▶️ John your eye.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m so glad that era of electronics design is over.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, it’s not, because I just got a new dishwasher

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ John it lights up the room in the dark with its blue LEDs in the front of it. Not that I care, because you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s running at night when nobody’s in there, but it is bright.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s a feature. So when you go downstairs, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John see I kind of have

⏹️ ▶️ John been using it as like a nightlight now

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey The

⏹️ ▶️ John dishwasher is running you can see but it’s it’s an eerie blue glow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, thanks for transporting for sponsoring the show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well done um, okay, what else we got to talk about so there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a new apple employee joining an executive who finally

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is a is a woman which is excellent,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco although still has an unpronounceable name.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep Yep, you’ll notice I didn’t try.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, no one looked that up? I figured at least one of you would have looked. I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco can

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann pronounce the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco first name. I figured

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann you would.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s Angela.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann Angela Arentz?

⏹️ ▶️ John That

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seems reasonable. Yeah, it sounds right to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s the interesting thing about her. They hired the CEO

⏹️ ▶️ John of another company to be the not CEO of their company.

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann I thought that

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which does not happen that often in the corporate world, where someone leaves a CEO position like a significant

⏹️ ▶️ John company, like your CEO of your five person company, right? A CEO of a big company

⏹️ ▶️ John basically is taking a step down. She used to be the one in charge, now she’s not. And

⏹️ ▶️ John granted, they seem to be throwing lots of money at her, but that’s a little bit of the magic

⏹️ ▶️ John of Apple or any high profile company where you can pull a CEO away from another company. That is very difficult

⏹️ ▶️ John to do. So it really must have been a heck of a pitch and they must have really wanted her

⏹️ ▶️ John and she She must have bought it. That yeah, she’s going to go there and stop selling sugar water and

⏹️ ▶️ John change the world, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Except in this case, it’s what, plaid scarves?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, I didn’t know what this store was. I had to Google Burberry because I had never heard

⏹️ ▶️ John of it before. Well, I’d heard the name, but if someone had told me that Burberry sold

⏹️ ▶️ John electronics or like housewares, I would have believed them because I had no idea what that store was about.

⏹️ ▶️ John Did either of you know what the store sold?

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John I

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann still don’t. I honestly did.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s closed, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s closed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I thought you said closed as in not open anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I was very confused. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s all closed. Yeah, CEO left or just shutting down. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey seriously. Sorry, giving up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes. No, it’s my understanding and I didn’t think to look this up or ask about it, so I’m sure I’ll get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a thousand emails. Email Marco. I thought it was, it’s a clothing store, sure, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of focused around a particular pattern and it’s like a plaid-ish pattern.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And yeah, and that’s kind of their thing. Just like their – what is the purse with the Louis Vuitton

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where you always see like the L and the Vs. Well, that’s like their only pattern or so it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey appears. Well this is – they have that one plaid that’s –

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Jonathan Mann We’re going to get in so much

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John trouble. I know.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Email markup.

⏹️ ▶️ John Unlike the L and the V, my understanding is that this pattern is actually – is an old thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John The L and the V I believe is new and I think they did that because you can’t copyright a

⏹️ ▶️ John like, you know, a fashion design, but you can copyright a logo. So that’s why everyone puts a logo all

⏹️ ▶️ John over their stuff, because that’s the one thing you have some legal recourse to protect from. By the way, the chat room is trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John correct our pronunciation of this song, saying it’s Burberry, not Burberry, or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann have us saying

⏹️ ▶️ John aluminium soon. So I don’t know if we can take any pronunciation advice from the people over there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, aluminium is patently wrong. But a friend of mine, Eric Wielander put

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the chat a picture to the plat I’m referring to. So if we remember, we’ll put that in the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can make it the episode artwork for this week. You should.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Actually,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m not even kidding. That would be really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey funny.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I might. I don’t know. I mean, what’s interesting is, you know, so she’s being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco brought into this job of retail chief, which is basically like the job of doom at Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like how many people have had this job in the last decade?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not like Ron Johnson was the guy, right? He’s the one who made that job an important job because

⏹️ ▶️ John previously Apple didn’t have a retail store. So he was the guy and then they brought in another guy from the UK, right? The

⏹️ ▶️ John guy who was the head of Dixon’s or something, or I don’t know if he’s the head of it or whatever, but I also

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t know what that store was, even if I’m remembering the name correctly. And they brought him in and that

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t work out and he went away. And so, and they were looking for somebody else for a long

⏹️ ▶️ John time and now they found someone else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that’s a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it’s not good, but when they brought that guy in, everyone said, oh boy, we predict doom for this guy. And they were like, oh

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, because the stores he ran were not Apple type stores, they were kind of like more, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John not as premium high end type of stuff. Like, well, who knows, he must be a great guy, Apple, you know, Apple must

⏹️ ▶️ John be good at hiring, they wouldn’t just hire some random guy. And he did the things, John Broward was his

⏹️ ▶️ John name, thanks chat room, and he did the things that people expected him to do, you know, regular, if you think of someone

⏹️ ▶️ John who runs a retail store, just the average person who runs a retail store chain

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, the they do are not Apple-like things. It’s just a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of workers. You try to pay the workers as little as possible. You try to sell

⏹️ ▶️ John the customers gold USB cables like Marco had to do. You try to do

⏹️ ▶️ John all these terrible things because that’s how you get ahead in retail.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco To be fair, I’m not sure I sold a single one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the ones you refuse to sell. That’s what we think of when we think of retail. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not what we think of when we think of Apple retail. It must be difficult for for them to find someone who does retail. Because if you

⏹️ ▶️ John bring in the best retail guy in the world, they’re going to come into Apple’s thing and say, oh, no, you’re doing it all wrong here, Apple. You’re paying your

⏹️ ▶️ John employees too much. You have too much staff in the store. You know, all sorts of things.

⏹️ ▶️ John I can show you how you can cut your costs in half, and it won’t hurt your business at all. You’ll see. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so he came in, did a bunch of stuff that made the retail store employees angry and

⏹️ ▶️ John made the experience of being in the Apple store worse, and then they canned him. So maybe this person has a better chance

⏹️ ▶️ John of not doing all of those things that regular retail stores do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You would think it’d be kind of like a dream job for somebody who is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well-minded in the sense that normally retail is just a terrible business

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because everything’s all about just these very, very, usually very thin profit margins, very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cutthroat business. You got to have as many people as possible not working full time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you don’t have to pay their benefits. to shave off hours so you have just enough people to run the store,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but no more than that, so that you aren’t wasting money on labor. And you have all these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco terrible high school and college kids running everything, and they have no training and no time for training,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everyone steals everything. It’s just a terrible business. Whereas in the Apple Store, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have some profit margin to play with, and because they value things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco customer experience, and service wait times, and quality of the stores and stuff like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then it feels like somebody who wanted to make a really good retail store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would see this as like a dream job because they have the resources to actually do things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well and to do good quality things and to do the regular things well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Whereas in most other companies, you don’t have that kind of power because they can’t afford it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, but wouldn’t you think that she would be handcuffed by what Ron Johnson

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did while he was at Apple? What I mean by that is the Apple store seemed to have a pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good thing going right now and a pretty good kind of feel to them. And of course there’s always room

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for improvement, but why mess with what is working? And so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if she’s brought in and has all these grand visions, which she very well may have, Is she going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be allowed to do them or is it wise to do them if Apple retail is doing pretty well?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, here’s the thing about Apple retail. The curse of success. This is true of – if anyone has ever been an employee

⏹️ ▶️ John of a company that finds itself being very successful, that is an extremely dangerous situation

⏹️ ▶️ John because as I believe – who was it? It was Ed Catmull

⏹️ ▶️ John said in his talk that I promoted heavily on Hypercritical but whose name I can’t remember right now. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think he was talking to some business people at Stanford or something, success hides problems. So

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple has been very successful in the past, you know, 7, 10 years, which means that more

⏹️ ▶️ John and more people are going into Apple retail stores and buying stuff. And you keep seeing the statistics about how the

⏹️ ▶️ John number, the amount of money made per square foot of store space is so high in Apple stores and Apple sells tons

⏹️ ▶️ John and tons of stuff. And you can do all sorts of terrible wrong things during

⏹️ ▶️ John that period. As long as your sales keep going up and up and up, everyone’s like, hey, thumbs up, boy, you are a great retail chief. Look

⏹️ ▶️ John at our sales numbers, they’re doing great. And how much is that because of you or in spite of you? Because when you’re on

⏹️ ▶️ John that rocket ship, it’s hard to tell, is this because of what I’m doing? Is it because these stores are so awesome?

⏹️ ▶️ John Or is it because Apple’s products are so awesome? Or is it just like the strange coincidence of events? And

⏹️ ▶️ John if you look at the trend in Apple stores, lots of things have gotten worse since the beginning. I mean, in the beginning, they were paying

⏹️ ▶️ John people obscene salaries to be geniuses. So you’d get like, you know, people who are real

⏹️ ▶️ John experts in the technology field, leaving their tech jobs for similar salaries

⏹️ ▶️ John to be a genius at the genius bar. You didn’t see employees who were like typical retail employees. Like Marco said, you know, the

⏹️ ▶️ John high school students or college students, not as anything wrong with those people, but you saw like real experienced people making

⏹️ ▶️ John good salaries doing this. And over time, the Apple store has become more like a regular retail

⏹️ ▶️ John store. Now that I’m saying they’re paying people like you get paid at Walmart or Target, But it is nothing compared to the original days

⏹️ ▶️ John of Apple retail where they were just paying tons of money to get really senior

⏹️ ▶️ John expert people in there And this transformation has happened little by

⏹️ ▶️ John little slowly, you know over many many years during that time Apple stores

⏹️ ▶️ John have been doing great right because they’ve been selling tons and tons of stuff So it’s like well have they been slowly

⏹️ ▶️ John kind to see how much of the rug can we pull out from under this retail thing? without breaking it? Is

⏹️ ▶️ John that the goal of the retail chief? Is it the goal to kind of sorta see how much cost

⏹️ ▶️ John you can pull out of the Apple retail stores without impacting the user experience and then the Broward guy just went too far?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what the mandate is for the new retail chief. It doesn’t seem

⏹️ ▶️ John like the mandate is, spare no expense, make our stores the best experience.

⏹️ ▶️ John We don’t care if all of our stores lose money because the whole point of our stores is to be ambassadors for our products and we’ll make

⏹️ ▶️ John up the money elsewhere. Like that doesn’t seem to be the mandate. I don’t think that was ever the mandate, even the good old days of Apple retail.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I wonder under Tim Cook, if the mandate isn’t, let’s see how much cost you can pull out of these stores

⏹️ ▶️ John without without breaking them. Don’t make the employees angry. Don’t make the experience worse. But see what you can do about pull,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, pull a little cost out. And I worry about that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, now, what do you make of the thought that she is well positioned to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey get Apple well positioned in China? So I asked because from what very little I’ve had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a chance to read about all this, apparently Burberry, Burberry,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever, I don’t care what it’s called, that thing, is doing fairly well in China and expanding pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Casey significantly. Do you think that this is yet another play on China, like everything Apple does is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the media these days?

⏹️ ▶️ John That can’t hurt, right? I mean, it’s probably, if you are in charge of any big retail, worldwide

⏹️ ▶️ John retail chain, chances are good that you have more locations in China than Apple does, simply because

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple doesn’t have that many stores when compared to, you know, Walmart or whatever, some other bigger McDonald’s,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know what I mean? Like how many locations does Apple have in China? Half a dozen or something? It’s not a lot for

⏹️ ▶️ John a country that big. So a lot of people put up the big map saying, here, look at Burberry has all these

⏹️ ▶️ John locations in China. It’s way more than Apple. That’s true. But a lot of places have way more locations

⏹️ ▶️ John in China. But you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco know,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, it doesn’t hurt. Anybody coming to work for Apple for anything

⏹️ ▶️ John probably has to, you know, dealing with China, the potentially

⏹️ ▶️ John largest market in the future for all of Apple’s stuff. Any triangle

⏹️ ▶️ John is good, but I don’t think that’s why they hired her. I think they’re trying to hire a person, and I guess they think this is the right

⏹️ ▶️ John person. I’m just, I’m a little gun-shy about Apple’s hiring

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s not been that great over the past several years, and not just Tim Cook, but

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s the guy at Paper Master, the guy that Steve Jobs wanted, right? That didn’t work out well either. So it’s kind of, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe that’s true of all hiring, like sometimes it just doesn’t work out, but when it’s a high profile position, we

⏹️ ▶️ John get to see all of the wreckage, whereas if it’s just some other person no one’s ever heard of, they come and go and

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody knows about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You got to figure this is also a tough job to sell to somebody. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco obviously, you know, with a handful of people having had it recently,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, if you’re like, if you’re some CEO of a big company or like some really high-ranking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco person at a different retailer, you’re very qualified, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re very expensive, you’re very, you can kind of pick what you do at that point and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe this just isn’t that appealing to like kind of be absorbed into Apple and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hope you do well, but if you don’t do well, you know, it will be very, very public and it will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably end your career. Like that’s not good.

⏹️ ▶️ John But these people never think they’re going to fail. From Paper Master to Broward,

⏹️ ▶️ John like if you’d ask them, they thought, I mean, it’s just one of those successful people never think they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to fail. And so they all don’t worry about that. It won’t be, I know the last guy, he kicked him out. boy, he

⏹️ ▶️ John wasn’t he a loser, but not me. It’s not going to happen to me. So no one thinks it’s going to happen to them. So I don’t think that

⏹️ ▶️ John examination is in there. And if you’re a fan of Apple, which I bet a lot of people are, just a fan

⏹️ ▶️ John of their products and admire the company, that goes a long way. That and a $56 million signing bonus

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever the heck she got, that goes a long way. But the money thing always

⏹️ ▶️ John confuses me in this sort of rarefied air of C-level executives,

⏹️ ▶️ John because I’m assuming she already doesn’t not to worry about money ever. She’s a multimillionaire,

⏹️ ▶️ John very rich, very powerful. Money is not a big thing. And yet, you still have to end up paying. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, that’s just what the market will bear. I mean, if you’re a business person, you just say, well, look, this is what I’m worth. So you need to pay me what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John worth. But something, I mean, I don’t know. Maybe we’ll have to try this experiment.

⏹️ ▶️ John Make me that rich and see if I demand that much money for the next job that I get. It

⏹️ ▶️ John seems like it would just be like, I guess you have to do it so it doesn’t seem like you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John getting what you’re worth because this is a supply and demand situation. But really, how much is that $56 million? It

⏹️ ▶️ John seems like so much does. It seems so obscene. But how much is going to change her lifestyle? Probably not at all, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would assume not. And I agree. I guess once you make some salary,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even if that salary is stupidly large, you’re not often going to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to go backwards. So I don’t know if she’s paid $11 gajillion now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey She’s probably going to want 12 gajillion next.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it’s also part of career branding where you don’t want—if there’s any chance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of anybody else learning your salary, which for a CEO, it’s usually public.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco For a high-ranking executive or director at Apple, that’s usually public too. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since your salary is either public or at least somewhat easy to find out,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t want it to look like you are on your way out career-wise. You don’t want it to look like you’re on your way down.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just looks bad on you. So you want to keep getting those upgrades.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and most of this, I’m assuming, is in stock. And that does make sense, where you give

⏹️ ▶️ John the compensation to top-level executives in stock, because that presumably motivates them to,

⏹️ ▶️ John at the very least, make the stock price go up, which hopefully is in some way related to their performance in their job.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so it’s not options. I think they’re giving RSUs, which have an immediate value, as opposed to a potential

⏹️ ▶️ John value in the future. But yeah, that’s usually the way that these people get

⏹️ ▶️ John compensated. Tons and tons of stock. And bringing in someone at this point, where Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like, it’s not at its stock peak, but it’s sort of on its way down from its

⏹️ ▶️ John peak. It’s not like it was five or ten years ago, where there was a huge potential upside, because Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John already, you know, the biggest company in the world, or close to it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey how

⏹️ ▶️ John much bigger could they possibly get? So yeah, you know, you get RSUs, and then those are worth money now, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John real money now. So, don’t have to worry about the stock price doubling. You already

⏹️ ▶️ John filthy rich just from what we’re giving you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t enjoy being in a position where my financial well-being depended on Apple stock

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going up dramatically. I have

⏹️ ▶️ John a real-time follow-up from my wife from a few minutes ago. She says that she used Googling to try

⏹️ ▶️ John to prove me wrong and she found that Louis Vuitton logo has been using that on their things since like the 1800s.

⏹️ ▶️ John So she thinks it’s not because you can copyright a logo, but not a pattern, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has to line up Right. Is that that one or the other one the C’s?

⏹️ ▶️ John Do not know the amount that all the our collective knowledge of fashion is close to zero

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love that but I love that we’re devoting like a half of the show to it

⏹️ ▶️ John Well Apple needs to start hiring people from things that we know about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they start hiring people like us to manage their fashion lines Yeah, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ John No. Oh, yeah. Well, that’s the other thing about this is like so they hired that the guy from the French company whose name we’re not going to

⏹️ ▶️ John pronounce a fashion type thing and the hiring this person from a clothing company is just the

⏹️ ▶️ John the smoke surrounding wearable items from Apple’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s it I think it’s just that Apple is trying to hire somebody to manage their very high-end retail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stores and it just so happens that most other very high-end retail stores are in the fashion business

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know I wear their smoke this fire Marco something that

⏹️ ▶️ John you can wear I mean they already

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can even pronounce the smoke

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah it doesn’t have to be pronounceable yeah something that you wear I mean they already do make things that you wear they make

⏹️ ▶️ John the iPods with little clips on them you wear them sort of it’s just it’s one short step

⏹️ ▶️ John from there to something that you slap around your wrist or like a slap bracelet

⏹️ ▶️ John put through your belly button piercing or whatever they’re going to do,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever the kids these days do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is going nowhere good quickly. All I have to say is I’m very much looking forward to WWDC shirts this year

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because they’re clearly going to be phenomenal given all these fashion people

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are being hired.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Thanks, guys. They will always have a special place in my heart for sponsoring neutral.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is sponsored all of neutral.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco They’re just awesome.

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey No way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco So they are that all they are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that cool. So thanks a lot of Squarespace now in the past and forever more. There’s something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco vaguely Catholic about that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So before we eliminate all of our listeners, what do you want to talk about touch ID for a minute?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I actually I finally used it a lot this weekend and I turned it off as soon as I got in the car to Go home.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Really? Man, I do not see why everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does not like it. I I really like it a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I liked it when I was using it, but if I don’t have to be using it, it’s not that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco transparent that I can just use it all the time. It’s very close, but it’s a little bit too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slow, and it misses a little bit too often. Mine would refuse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my finger about maybe one every 20 or 30 tries. So it happens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey like…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s enough to get you that grumpy?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it would happen, you know, maybe twice a day or something. And that’s like, that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough that it reminds me, oh, this kind of sometimes sucks, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it was just a little bit, I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s very close to being good enough for my ridiculously picky standards, but not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quite. It’s a little bit too slow and just slightly too unreliable.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Again, it’s close, but I would say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if my false positive rate stayed the same and it just got maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco half the time, if it got fast enough that it could do it in half the time, I would turn it back on all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So maybe the iPhone 6 or whatever will be faster at it, who knows? But for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, I think I’m just going to turn it on when I know I’m going to be out in public a lot like a conference. for my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco day-to-day use where I’m around nobody except my family and my dog.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I’ll leave it on.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the letter you should have read, that guy scolding you about keeping your phone unlocked because someone’s gonna steal it from you and

⏹️ ▶️ John get access to all your information.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did read that. First of all, he was under the impression that I live in New York City, which I don’t. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so, yeah, so basically, I don’t want to pull it up now, but the gist

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of his response, which was on point for the most part, I think, and most of it I agree

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with, the gist of it is that it’s kind of like your ethical duty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a responsible technology owner to lock your phone because not only do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have your own data to protect, but you also have everyone in your address book, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have their data to protect as well. And if somebody has possession of your phone, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do quite a lot. You know, if they can open up your email, if they can receive email, then they can do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like receive password resets for pretty much any service. And then, you know, log

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in as you and other services. They can take your whole address book, they can take everyone’s names and phone numbers, even like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, if you’re friends with like any celebrities or internet celebrities, then, you know, then their public

⏹️ ▶️ Marco information or their private information could be taken too, and that could be inconvenient, at least for them. So…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. Even MC Hammer. Exactly. Even MC Hammer. I don’t even know if he still uses that phone number. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway, so I agree with him that that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a risk. However, I think most people probably grossly overestimate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much I go in public and how many people are there when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I get there. Wow. Like, I really pretty much stay in my small town and the town next

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to us most of the time. And there’s rarely any people around. I rarely even have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my phone out of my pocket. And it’s not even a dense enough area that I’d be pickpocketed. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could happen. I’m not saying it can’t happen, but I think the chances of it happening are so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco astronomically low that it’s just not worth it for me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s always what I thought when I saw people use their iPhones with even just the four-digit

⏹️ ▶️ John code. Because you know how often people check their phones. People are just obsessive about it. They’re constantly looking at their phones,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’d see them doing it, and you’d also see them entering their little number over and over and over again,

⏹️ ▶️ John which just seems so annoying to me. And not only so annoying, but if you wanted to steal that person’s

⏹️ ▶️ John phone, spend five minutes next to them. Wait for them to check their phone 900 times. Watch them type

⏹️ ▶️ John in that same four-digit code over and over and over and over again and see where their fingers are. Like, this is not rocket science.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then take their phone. It’s like an extra five-minute investment. At least with Touch ID, you have

⏹️ ▶️ John to make more of an effort to fake it out. My wife got her

⏹️ ▶️ John phone, and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I played with the Touch ID.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think I would probably enable it, because I couldn’t bring myself to do the four-digit code thing, because

⏹️ ▶️ John that was just too much of a burden. Even when I’m out of the house, not that I have

⏹️ ▶️ John an iPhone, so it’s not an issue. But if I did have an iPhone, I don’t think I would enable the four-digit one,

⏹️ ▶️ John unless I was going into an area where suddenly my risk of losing my phone was getting much higher. But I think I would enable

⏹️ ▶️ John the fingerprint thing every time I went outside. Although, that’s not in Control Center, right? I’d have to

⏹️ ▶️ John actually go into Settings and turn on the fingerprint thing. So that might be a little bit of a hassle. But I think I would give it more

⏹️ ▶️ John of a go, just because it passes my threshold for like, I’m going to endure this

⏹️ ▶️ John annoyance for the slight added safety. Because for some reason, I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, once you accept that there is this step in the process of taking out your phone that is unlocking it,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you can make that step pretty easy, I’m willing to accept that as a step in the process. If you’re not willing to accept

⏹️ ▶️ John that as a step in the process, then it’s just like, It better be zero time or it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John constantly annoying me. I think I could get with the program with Touch ID. But I enabled it on my wife’s

⏹️ ▶️ John phone. I don’t know if she’s already enabled it, disabled it. We’ll see. We’ll see how long she lasts.

⏹️ ▶️ John She never used a lock on her previous phone. She always had it completely unlocked.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, to be clear, you have to use a passcode of some variety when Touch ID is on. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you reboot, for example, it won’t let you do Touch ID to unlock. You have to use the passcode. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there were some other circumstances I don’t recall. Well, if you can’t get in via Touch ID, you have to fall back on a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey passcode. I don’t think it has to be four digit. I think you can use a crazy alphanumeric one. Right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey it a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco password. You can either do the simple passcode, which is four digits, or you can just have it put up a text box,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enter whatever you want with the regular keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the regular keyboard is at least slightly more difficult to shoulder surf from somebody.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and actually, I should point out, I have not tried this. But earlier on, Double

⏹️ ▶️ Casey D in the chat said, hey, the way I fixed all the issues with not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey registering my finger is to have the same finger as two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey entries in the Touch ID registration. You know what I mean? So say take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your right thumb, you register your right thumb as two independent fingers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that makes it a lot better and a lot less likely to mess it up, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have not tried, but it sounds reasonable to me. That’s interesting. Yeah, I thought that was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m surprised it would even accept it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John It sure will accept it. It’s just a question of when they tell you to put your thumb on it in all sorts of different positions,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just do a different set of positions the second time and then you have just more data.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I mean my experience with it has been great. Certainly it fails sometimes, but I guess the difference

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is I look at it the same way John does, which is, you know what, there is another step in this process that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least 80% of the time for me, I don’t even notice it. I don’t even think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it. And then the other small portion of the time, the 20% of the time, I do notice it. Maybe I have

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to try again, but my data in principle is that much more secure, and that’s a price I’m willing to pay.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Much more so than the price of having even a four digit simple lock

⏹️ ▶️ Casey code, which I never liked. And it frustrated me every time I turned it on, which was basically only when I was at conferences.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I give two thumbs up, as terrible that pun ends up being. I give two thumbs up

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the Touch ID. I think it’s been really good. One thing I wanted to ask you guys about though is do you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think this is coming to both MacBook Pros and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the desktop Macs, I guess specifically perhaps the iMac, and I assume we all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey agree that it’s going to be on iPads as soon as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going to say no on the Max

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey because portables.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, because right now, I mean, first of all, you know, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sell so many fewer max, the motivation to bring cutting edge features to them as way lower. I mean, look, we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still don’t even have built in cellular modems on the max. And that’s like, even when they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launched one called the Mac book air and they didn’t build in an air card. I mean, that’s crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, they, so we like, Obviously, putting new hardware features on the Mac is obviously a lower

⏹️ ▶️ Marco priority. But also, I think it’s just because the design of it requires that secure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enclave thing. And if you look at what this is, if you look at the NN Tech article on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A7, you can kind of see what that means. And it’s this pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deeply integrated architecture as part of the new ARM

⏹️ ▶️ Marco architecture, whatever it is. And so I don’t think they would do it in a way that wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just as secure as the phone. And we know in regards to not not only just recognizing your fingerprint, but in regards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to not letting anything else access fingerprint data, like no other software on the computer, no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even not even the CPU, you know, stuff like that, doing the doing the hashing and then even locking the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hashes down super tightly in this secure area. So this is all enabled by like special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware features of the new arm architecture. And as far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as I know, I don’t think there’s anything like that on Intel, but who knows? Intel’s always worked in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little features like this, like in their specs, and then nobody ever uses them. So they might have them, but I don’t think they do right now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I don’t think it’s going to come to the portables anytime soon.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And even coming to the iPads, obviously, I think it’s only going to come to iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices that have the A7 or better. And right now, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad Mini is on the A5. So the question is, if they’re about to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a Retina iPad Mini, which I think is pretty likely, it’s certainly possible, but I’d say

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s even pretty likely at this point, if they’re about to release that, you have to ask, what’s the price

⏹️ ▶️ Marco point of that thing going to be and can that even support, the Mini’s already cheap,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so can that support an A7 and a Retina screen in one year? I’m guessing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably not. I’m guessing the retina iPad mini is probably going to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an a6x chip and not the a7x which doesn’t exist yet, but they’re probably going to call it that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then I’m guessing the full-size iPad will have a7x and touch ID because first of all also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple needs some segmentation here. Apple needs some reasons for people to buy the big one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and because the big one they make way more money on it and there’s a lot more room

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there for for upsells as well. So I think we’re going to see that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco come to the iPad this fall as big iPad only, and the mini won’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have it this year. That’s just my guess.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, yeah, I kind of agree that it’s not likely that we’re going to see this in Macs anytime soon.

⏹️ ▶️ John But for the secure enclave stuff, if Intel doesn’t already have something like that, they will soon,

⏹️ ▶️ John because Intel wants into all the businesses that ARM is into. And this is This is even ignoring the possibility

⏹️ ▶️ John of a Mac based on an ARM system on a chip. These type of

⏹️ ▶️ John features, not only can Apple get it if they want it a couple years down the

⏹️ ▶️ John line, but Intel is going to want to offer it because they’re going to want to offer their chips to people who do things like

⏹️ ▶️ John this. Because Apple has some fingerprint thing in their thing that seems to be reasonably successful, we haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ John heard all crazy backlash or no late night jokes about how fingerprints don’t work.

⏹️ ▶️ John had a launch the best that you could have hoped for. And again this is a forward-looking technology and blah blah blah

⏹️ ▶️ John like this is the cutting edge. But a couple years down the line when it’s less cutting edge if

⏹️ ▶️ John it turns out to be something that people like, laptops have the same exact problem in that you should

⏹️ ▶️ John use a screen lock whenever you’re you know away from your laptop and stuff like that. But a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t because it’s annoying to keep typing in your password over and over and over again even though you have a real keyboard in front of you. I do

⏹️ ▶️ John it at work my screen has a password lock on it and I’m sick of typing it all day every time I get up and leave

⏹️ ▶️ John my computer and come back down to it. If I could put my finger on some little spot, that’s faster than typing in front

⏹️ ▶️ John of my password and I would do it. So if this convenience becomes

⏹️ ▶️ John addictive to customers, it’s only a matter of time before it shows up everywhere because there are so many

⏹️ ▶️ John instances where you have to enter credentials on the Mac, you know, purchasing stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John authorizing, you know, event access if you’re a nerd user or whatever. Hell, I

⏹️ ▶️ John would use it for like my SSH, you know, key passcode stuff if I could.

⏹️ ▶️ John The opportunities for integration seem great. And now the point about the 3G is a good one, like that seems like a

⏹️ ▶️ John no-brainer and everyone has to come up with all sorts of crazy theories about why isn’t Apple putting 3G in

⏹️ ▶️ John any of its Mac products? Is it some sort of thing with the carriers or they don’t want like… I don’t understand

⏹️ ▶️ John why either, but the simplest explanation is the most compelling. Like like Marco said, it’s just, nah, they don’t care that

⏹️ ▶️ John much. Maybe they’ll do it someday, maybe they won’t. But that’s another feature that,

⏹️ ▶️ John can you think of anybody who buys the MacBook Air and travels a lot, who would not opt for

⏹️ ▶️ John the 3G option or 4G option if it was like it is on the iPad, where you pay per month

⏹️ ▶️ John and the extra hardware is 100 extra bucks or whatever? People buy that in a second.

⏹️ ▶️ John That would be an amazing sell. And it would make the machine more useful. So that argument

⏹️ ▶️ John is against Touch ID because it’s a feature, no matter how convenient it is and how much people want it, Apple can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John be bothered because the volumes are too low or it doesn’t seem that important, who knows. But if Touch

⏹️ ▶️ John ID continues to be, even like, you know, middle of the road successful,

⏹️ ▶️ John people don’t love it, but it’s still more convenient than typing in something, it’s got to spread because the technology

⏹️ ▶️ John required to do that will become cheaper, will spread to more different vendors, it

⏹️ ▶️ John will just be everywhere. So we’ll report back in five years and we’ll see if Touch ID has spread

⏹️ ▶️ John outside the iOS realm, but I would not be surprised.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say also the demand for, or rather the need for Touch ID

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on laptops is lower. In that, you know, they, and they discussed this in the keynote when they unveiled

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it for the iPhone, you know, that nobody locks their phone because it’s hard. You know, it adds

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inconvenience, frequent inconvenience. So nobody does it. So on the laptop,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco though, even though I’m all picky about making a convenient phone, on my laptop

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve always used full disk encryption, using FileVault, I use full disk encryption

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I have the passcode required on every wake up and a pretty aggressive sleep timeout. And the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco reason why is because I don’t sleep and wake my laptop that much. It’s not like a phone where you might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sleep and wake it 30 to 50 times in a day, at least. I don’t even, probably more than that.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s because you don’t work in a public office. time anyone walks away from their desk at work, you lock your screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not just because it’s work policy, but because if you don’t, your co-workers will send emails that say you forgot to lock your computer

⏹️ ▶️ John and do other terrible things

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to your computer. Right, they’ll go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to your wallpaper. But still, how often do you get up from your desk at work? How

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many times per day, compared to how often you unlock a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John phone?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking about all the other things, too. How many times do we go to a web forum and we want it to auto-fill? I guess they kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John auto-fill automatically, but the extra bit of security of having a fingerprint thing to autofill

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff versus like, Oh God, if someone gets to my unlock computer, they have access. They can log in as me at Gmail

⏹️ ▶️ John cause I don’t use two factor author or something. And because my browser will just auto fill it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, this is again, a case where you’re adding security where none existed before, because

⏹️ ▶️ John now if you get to someone’s unlock Mac and they save their passwords, uh, you can just go to the webpage.

⏹️ ▶️ John It will autofill and you will just log right in as them and have access to all stuff. So we all love keychain

⏹️ ▶️ John and we love the convenience of like one password ever remembering our passwords but having it be

⏹️ ▶️ John so easy for someone to get access to all your passwords just because they have access to your unlock Mac is

⏹️ ▶️ John not good for any kind of security sensitive situation. If it could be as simple as putting your fingers on something

⏹️ ▶️ John and hey when you’re using a Mac your fingers are already on the keyboard and there’s lots of keys there like it seems like a natural

⏹️ ▶️ John fit but eventually I mean it it’s like 3G. Like, it’s got to happen eventually. Eventually,

⏹️ ▶️ John some Mac laptop has to have cellular wireless in it, right? Maybe not this

⏹️ ▶️ John year, maybe not next year, but eventually it has to happen. Soon it becomes so cheap that

⏹️ ▶️ John kids’ toys have it in them. It just has to happen. So if this fingerprint stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John continues to be useful and nothing better replaces it, it’ll be in Macs eventually,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we’ll use it for all the things that we currently use passwords for. And we’ll like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Somebody actually pointed out to me on Twitter a while back that perhaps if there is a Touch ID in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the portables, perhaps it would be under the touchpad. So the whole

⏹️ ▶️ Casey touchpad would be one big sensor, which I thought was interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That sounds unrealistic, though, because the sensor in the phone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is super high resolution. And to make one that large at the size of these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco giant touch pads that are on the modern Mac laptops, that’s probably cost prohibitive.

⏹️ ▶️ John Putting it in a key cap is certainly the easier one with current tech, but it depends on how many years out in the future

⏹️ ▶️ John you go. Because things just get cheaper, cheaper, and cheaper. And eventually, maybe putting it in the Hall of Track pad isn’t as crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John as it is today. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, it occurred to me just a moment ago that this is our last show before the October 22

⏹️ ▶️ Casey event. So I feel like it would be remiss of me not to ask you to any other

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thoughts on what will be announced. I’ll start with myself. I didn’t think that there would be a Retina

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPad Mini until the last week or so. I’m starting to lean toward

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there being one. And so I’ll go on record and saying I think that there will be a Retina iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mini. And I also was just thinking to myself, if there isn’t a Retina iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mini, I kind of wonder if we’ll get iPad Mini in colors

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a la the iPhone 5C. So, hey, we didn’t give you the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Retina you always wanted, but we’ve got these sweet colors. And so that would be kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of your, the second, the next best thing. But in terms

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of everything else, I mean, I suspect and hope, I really hope we see updates to the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey laptops. What is it, Haswell that we’re waiting on? Is that right? Yep. I would hope that we’ll see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. I think we’ll get more information about the Mac Pro. Obviously we’ll get more information

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mavericks, but I’m going for yes on the Retina iPad Mini. Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how about you?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going to modify your prediction of the iPad mini slightly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, I think it’s pretty clear that we’ve seen parts leaks, not to the level

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we see before a phone launch, but I think we’ve seen enough parts leaks that it looks pretty clear

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they’re not doing plastic, that the case for the mini looks pretty much the same as the old one,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but a little bit thicker, which pretty much suggests retina. My guess is we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see a retina mini, but they keep the old one around at a cheaper price and the retina price goes up because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now you know they have the iPad mini at $329 and right that’s the current price?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right. So that is cheap enough that they sold a butt ton of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them this year but everyone’s still undercutting the crap out of them and Apple’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna try to like match the the Kindle Fire crap box price but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they can at least try to reduce the gap just like they did by releasing the mini in the first place. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m guessing the old mini sticks around for another year, the same way they used to do with phones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and still kind of do. So I’m guessing the old mini sticks around at a little bit less, maybe it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco becomes $300 instead of $330, you know? Or maybe even like $279, something like that. But not like a massive jump, not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not 200 bucks, but less. And then the Retina comes in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at a higher price. Basically, I’m agreeing with R. Jonesy in the chat room.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m saying non-Retina goes down to 300-ish, Retina goes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up to about 400-ish, because I think they’re going to need a little bit more margin to pull that off well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Obviously, you can look and you can see the newest big Kindle fires and and the newer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nexus 7 is it yet the Nexus 7 you can look at some of these other like cheap tablets that that have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very high res screen very high very high res screens rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can look at those and they’re able to cram in those high density screens into this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cheap price point so obviously it’s possible to do that but Apple tends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to build in you know better cases better screen types you know better angles and color and stuff like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then they usually have a more powerful GPU and so there’s all these things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I’m guessing Apple can’t comfortably do a good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Retina Mini at $329 this year so they’re instead going to split it and go

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lower for the non-retina and higher for the retina I’m guessing the retina will also have the a6X

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as I said a few minutes ago and not the a7 primarily for cost concerns and yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then the iPad 5 is going to be a little bit smaller and really fast and probably have the a7X

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but who cares because it’s too big.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right John.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah I’m kind of upset about the smaller frame around the iPad whatever number

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s up to now the big one because I like the big one I like the bigger screen I don’t like the mini and one of the things I don’t like about

⏹️ ▶️ John the mini is the the edges are so small like they want you to hold it not by the frame but rather

⏹️ ▶️ John like around the back of it and so they’re shrinking you know if If all the parts leaks are to be believed, and I do believe

⏹️ ▶️ John them, they’re shrinking the frame around the iPad 5. Which is kind of a shame. It’s still big.

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess I’ll have to try it out. But anyway, that’s that’s the iPad that I’ll want someday or something like that to replace

⏹️ ▶️ John my iPad 3. Although my iPad 3 does feel like it weighs a ton, but it’s it’s still pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John solid for me. It stutters a little on iOS 7. I finally did upgrade it. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m looking forward to the big iPad. The mini has to be retina this year. It just has to be

⏹️ ▶️ John and if it’s not they will get slammed in the press and they will deserve it Because like fine you’ve launched on retina.

⏹️ ▶️ John You got to do what you got to do. You got to protect your margins It wasn’t that big a deal now Everybody has a retina little

⏹️ ▶️ John tablet and like what Marco said is true Maybe they’re using cheaper displays or whatever, but they’re in some of them are not that

⏹️ ▶️ John bad I’ve seen a lot of these 7-inch tablets. They do not look like crap displays I like they’re shipping with those, you know, crazy pen

⏹️ ▶️ John tile things don’t even have real RGB pixels some of these

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann screens I think

⏹️ ▶️ John some of

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann them are

⏹️ ▶️ John Some of them are but now they’re wanting to you know, but the the name-brand good 7-inch Android

⏹️ ▶️ John or Kindle tablets Like they’re like 200 bucks and their retina and they’re not bad

⏹️ ▶️ John products Yes, they have went be a GPUs and maybe slower CPUs and they don’t use the the apples but

⏹️ ▶️ John absolutely positively Apple must ship a retina Mini whether they keep around the old one

⏹️ ▶️ John Like Apple is running this experiment with the iPad 2 where they wanted to figure out

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, do people keep buying the iPad 2 because it’s cheap or because it’s big? And so then they made a small one that

⏹️ ▶️ John was also cheap and so it’s like, okay, now you have the choice. You have the cheap big one and the cheap small one. Now,

⏹️ ▶️ John presumably, Apple has enough data to know whether or not they should include

⏹️ ▶️ John the, you know, keep around the non-retina mini. I just don’t know what the answer to that question is.

⏹️ ▶️ John They know because they can look at their sales figures because now they’ve run the experiments. They’re sort of controlling for the variables. They have

⏹️ ▶️ John you know two non retina devices one big one small both cheaper than everything else Which

⏹️ ▶️ John one is selling more what do people say about why they buy it or whatever so? I

⏹️ ▶️ John Would not be surprised if they didn’t keep around the old one because I think the result of the experiment My guess

⏹️ ▶️ John is that people wanted the cheaper price not so much the bigger size, but only Apple knows for sure So we’ll see

⏹️ ▶️ John for the for the MacBook Pros I’m I’m assuming they’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John be announced. I haven’t paid enough attention to Intel’s timelines again we talked about in previous shows, the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing I’m really looking for is, these are talking about the retina MacBook Pros, because you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously the other line has already been updated this year. Will it have a discrete

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU at all in any of the model choices? Or will it be, you know, the Irish Pro graphics

⏹️ ▶️ John up and down the line? Because as we said before, Apple could say no discrete GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John in any of the MacBook Pros and spin it with some marketing mumbo-jumbo and some graphs

⏹️ ▶️ John that show, see it’s not really that bad, it’s about the same as it was before and look at this extra battery life you get or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or will there be a last gasp of the discrete GPU and on either some or all the models it’ll still have discrete

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU but you’ll use it less and less except for maybe when you’re gaming because Iris Pro is just

⏹️ ▶️ John that good. So that’s what I’d be looking for there. The Mac Pro, I would like a price on

⏹️ ▶️ John that but I’m not holding my breath, I have no idea what the timeout looks like for the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t quite understand at this point why they wouldn’t announce pricing. I mean, they’ve pre-announced the product

⏹️ ▶️ John so far in advance anyway. Why not just tell us how much it’s going to cost? Surely you know by now. There’s no part

⏹️ ▶️ John of it that you’re waiting for pricing on. You have pricing for CPUs from Intel. You have all the other parts, all that

⏹️ ▶️ John good stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, wait a minute. Is Intel CPU pricing public?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I mean, the deals have to be signed by now, like barring any unforeseen fabbing difficulties. Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John has to know what their supply costs are for this machine and, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pick

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John a price.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, but maybe they aren’t allowed to reveal the pricing of a thing using this new still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of unreleased

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Intel chip yet. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John sure Intel doesn’t stop Apple from announcing prices of its products.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Apple does what

⏹️ ▶️ John it wants!

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We also haven’t seen, as far as I know, the CPUs used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the new Mac Pro, the Xeon E5 V2, I don’t think we’ve seen any of them in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wild anywhere else yet. No one else is selling those CPUs yet. So it’s possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s just waiting on Intel to deliver enough of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m not talking about shipping. I’m just saying, like, you know, to have a surprise and, you know, we’ll be on sale

⏹️ ▶️ John later this year or whatever. Retina’s displays are linked

⏹️ ▶️ John with the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Please, please, please.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we all want them, but I get a feeling that maybe not this year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’d give that maybe a 50% chance of being

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John this year.

⏹️ ▶️ John No matter how much we want, the watching them doesn’t make it so. So that’s a shame there. Mavericks, I have, I mean, we all

⏹️ ▶️ John know that Apple shipped out the GM. They

⏹️ ▶️ John like to give developers some time to get their applications ready for Mavericks and put them up into the store and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John How much time? Not, not that much. I mean, how long do they usually give developers like what, iOS 7

⏹️ ▶️ John when GM and like two weeks before?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Usually you have one week on iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. So it’s not outside the realm of possibility that Mavericks, uh, the price is

⏹️ ▶️ John announced and they say, hey, go to the store after we get off the stage and you can get it today.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I tend to think you’re right about that. You know, something that just occurred to me, I don’t think this is going to happen,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but do they are there is Apple currently selling any iPhone with the dock connector

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, the forest still for sale.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ah, bummer. All right. Well, what I was going to say is what if they said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what, the only iPads we’re selling are the current gen mini,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the next gen mini, the one that’s going to be new in a week or less than a week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The iPad 4 is now the cheap big iPad. The iPad 5,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey obviously, is the new big iPad. So if it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wasn’t for the 4S, which already ruins my argument, I was going to say, hey, look, we’re all off the dock connector. The dock

⏹️ ▶️ Casey connector’s gone. And then what if they did the same thing with, hey, we’re doing a new iMac with the either

⏹️ ▶️ Casey 4K or Retina display. Obviously, with that comes the Thunderbolt display upgrade, which is now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Retina. Oh, and by the way, there’s a Retina MacBook Air, and we’ve already got Retina MacBook Pro. So lookit, everything is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Retina, and everything is on the Lightning connector, and everyone is happy. I don’t think that’ll happen, but it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would be a neat storyline for the event.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s next year. By the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey end of next year is

⏹️ ▶️ John your only chance of getting it. Because getting a Retina into the air is difficult from a battery perspective.

⏹️ ▶️ John and the iMac is difficult from a cost perspective. Marco and I just want it for the Pro, I mean, cry not loud,

⏹️ ▶️ John for the bazillion dollar top end device. Can you get a Retina? Because it can drive them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple said it can drive the displays. And if Apple doesn’t offer displays, what are we gonna do?

⏹️ ▶️ John Buy a Retina display elsewhere?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What do you think of that rumor? Do you see that rumor about the potential 12 inch Retina MacBook Air?

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Marco You see that it

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Casey came

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John out? I

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Casey did

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John not see

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Casey that rumor. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did. I don’t understand why that would be useful.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think it’s interesting. So, John, basically, we’ll have to find a link to it. The rumor is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, it came out this week, and the rumor is that they’re working on a 12-inch Retina

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Air that would potentially replace the existing Air lineup with just the one model of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 12-inch. And it would be substantially smaller and thinner than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the current Retina lineup, which is pretty impressive. And apparently,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like even you know, like, redefining portability even further than the original Air did.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Something like that. So here, here’s the link in the chat. Thank you to DerJohneter.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it says mid 2014. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, I’m not saying right now, I was just talking in general that this rumor exists.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it, first of all, you know, this is just an analyst predicting this. Oh, did I tell you I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an analyst now? I changed myself on Twitter. So you know obviously this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is really more of speculation in all likelihood than an actual tip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but and certainly it’s pretty far from from credible or likely given the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sourcing but I think it’s an interesting thing to consider

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if they did it I think it would be really cool.

⏹️ ▶️ John It makes sense from a segmentation perspective and I see this at work as people are getting newer laptops when I see someone

⏹️ ▶️ John with like a 13 inch retina MacBook Pro that if you had showed me that before the Air

⏹️ ▶️ John existed I would be like oh that must be the new MacBook Air because like the pros now that the opticals are

⏹️ ▶️ John gone and the spinning discs are gone like they’re getting thinner and smaller so you need some way to

⏹️ ▶️ John further differentiate the Air because that the 13 inch Pro is like creeping up on Air territory

⏹️ ▶️ John like if you if you had an original MacBook Air and the current retina 13 inch Pro 13

⏹️ ▶️ John inch Pro is bigger it’s thicker but Not that much bigger and not that much thicker like yeah, it doesn’t taper

⏹️ ▶️ John or anything, but they’re both pretty darn portable So if you want the air to continue to have the reputation of the

⏹️ ▶️ John super light thing it makes perfect sense to say okay We’re seeding the 13-inch realm to the MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s you know It’s not as thin as a 13-inch air would be but it’s thin we really want

⏹️ ▶️ John to emphasize super-duper Portability 11 inches a little bit squinty so maybe 12.5 or something. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t give any credence these rumors either, but consolidating the airline

⏹️ ▶️ John Down range to further emphasize its super-duper portability is a good idea if you continue

⏹️ ▶️ John to have the 13-inch retina because the third new Tinch retina is getting thinner every year. It’s it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty nice machine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What and also, you know, so the this rumor if it’s if it’s completely true, which as I said is very unlikely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But if it’s completely true That they would actually replace both

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 11 and 13 with this one super slim 12 that could be interesting because right now you have the 11 and 13 are are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very different sizes like you wouldn’t think so if you just look at a picture like head-on but in practice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they are there’s a substantial gap between them and the 13

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is very thin but not that small and the 11 is really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco small but you can’t fit anything on that screen like it is impossible to fit or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see anything on that screen and so to have something that’s a little bit bigger than the 11

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but not as big as 13 I think really could be better than both of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you could, I mean, the other thing you can do is the traditional thing of reducing the spacing around the elements.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Jonathan Mann Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s a crash protection issue there as well, but that’s the easy way to shrink the 13 without actually shrinking

⏹️ ▶️ John the screen size. You know, so they have a lot of options with the Airs, but in terms of Retina, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John always been battery. I mean, look at the thicker case on the mini rumors, right? You know, the same thing happened

⏹️ ▶️ John with the iPad, the iPad 3, it got thicker too. You just need more battery for that Retina display.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s why they have to do this new design. You know the I think I think it says in here that it’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shaped more like the retinamethic probe where it’s where it’s not Wedge shape anymore. It’s it’s split

⏹️ ▶️ Marco square. It’s flat and I think you’d like the problem with the 11-inch air Until the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most recent ones with Haswell I think I think it’s improved substantially but the 11-inch air in addition to having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a really tiny screen also just has a Substantially smaller battery than the 13 just because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s no room to put one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, you just made a crappy battery life too.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly. And so if they made it Not tapered if they just made the whole thing a uniform

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thickness That would give tons more space up front under the under the wrist rest to put

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a nice big thick battery pack

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the taper taper is a conceit that you can you can afford maybe when you’re making a design

⏹️ ▶️ John statement But as the years pass it’s like remind me again Why it gets thinner on one end because it’s not actually

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not actually all that thick at the other end either and we’re sacrificing sacrificing a whole big wedge of lithium-ion

⏹️ ▶️ John battery space that we could have, like, especially when it’s sitting there on a desk in front of you, you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John really care that it’s thinner in the front than it is at the back. It looks cool when it’s closed, but when you’re carrying it, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, it’s a difficult trade-off, especially with the 11-inch, which just feels like you would think the 11-inch is gonna have, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is such amazing battery life because it’s so small and light, but no, it’s got, you know, same class of CPU as

⏹️ ▶️ John in the 13, and it eats up with just as much battery. I mean, smaller screen, but you know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, a layperson might think that the 11-inch would have better battery life than the 13, but it does not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just, and it can’t with the current technology they have in there. So need more battery. Send battery.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco While we’re on the subject, we never got a chance to talk about the rumors about the A7 potentially

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being brought to the Mac. That’s why it’s going 64-bit, and the potential for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ARM-based Mac laptops in the future. One of the reasons

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why I didn’t think that really held a lot of water is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the CPU design doesn’t actually have that massive of an impact on the overall

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life. You’re not going to go to an ARM CPU and have the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop last a month. You still have the screen, the RAM,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the disks, everything else that you have to power, and the screen being a pretty big one. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now that we see as Intel is upping their game, and with Haswell doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not only a big CPU power reduction, but also a lot of other components on the motherboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being more smart about their power usage, I don’t really think there’s that much of a need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make the CPU like dramatically lower powered in a laptop to the point where it be worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an architecture switch that would be disruptive and and by the way a switch to a slower architecture which should

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make emulation difficult to do well unlike every other architectures which they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done so I don’t I don’t really see it happening and I don’t really see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what it would gain that would be totally worth it I mean if you already have 8 or 12 hours of battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life on a laptop using a fast CPU,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how much demand really would there be for that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, we did talk about this before, right, Casey? I’m not crazy for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey misremembering this. I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we did as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John We did?

⏹️ ▶️ John I talked about Bay Trail and how Intel is getting in on arms area

⏹️ ▶️ John of super low power CPUs and how they’re kind of meeting in the middle. And it’s just a question of, as they meet in the middle,

⏹️ ▶️ John who ends up coming out the victor? But two things on that. First, the CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t always using the most power in the system, but it has the highest dynamic range of any component in the system. Because when

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re really burning, especially with big multi-core things, when you’re really burning up and using every ounce of the CPU,

⏹️ ▶️ John it uses a tremendous amount of power. Way more than the screen, way more than an SSD, way more than the RAM.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so that’s why it’s a problem. Not that it’s always going like that unless you’re playing a game or something, but when

⏹️ ▶️ John it does, it has the potential to really suck down your battery. I mean, what is it like the, I think the current Haswell

⏹️ ▶️ John and the Ares or whatever, it’s max power dissipation is like 25 watts. And

⏹️ ▶️ John like the battery is like 54 watt hours or something. So you are not getting 12

⏹️ ▶️ John hours of battery life out of your MacBook Air if you are running that CPU at max power all the time.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the second thing is that you’re not looking for an ARM CPU so much as you’re looking

⏹️ ▶️ John for an ARM system on a chip. And that’s why the Haswell, you know, MacBook Airs and everything have

⏹️ ▶️ John such great power is not just because they’re better power management in the CPU part But because they move more

⏹️ ▶️ John crap onto the onto the CPU die or package So the GPU goes onto that no more discrete GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John and the what is it the PCH thing? We’re like moving more components into the ship. That’s why you can have you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the a7 system on a chip It’s not just the CPU. It’s like the entire system on a little chip And yeah, there there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a big gap between where Haswell is and the a7 system on the chip but again and they’re meeting in the middle. So

⏹️ ▶️ John as the Macs try, as time goes on, more and more components are going to get shoved

⏹️ ▶️ John into whatever the chip is that is, we call the CPU in the Mac, but really will eventually become a system

⏹️ ▶️ John on a chip. And the same thing with the phones and everything. Chip consolidation will happen. It’s just a question

⏹️ ▶️ John of when it happens and where it happens first. So if you were to stick an A7 to

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac laptop, you’d get a big advantage because the max power dissipation of the A7 is way

⏹️ ▶️ John lower than the max power dissipation of a Haswell, and the chip is slower and everything too.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so you say, well, 12 hours seems like it’s plenty, right? Well, if it was 24 hours, does that

⏹️ ▶️ John change the equation? If it’s 48 hours, does that change the equation? At a certain point, it’s like a,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a discontinuity where it changes the nature of the way you work with things. We’re not even at that point with phones.

⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone plugs in their phone at night now because the odds of you going two days without charging your phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, you just feel like, well, just in case, I’d better plug it in every single night. even if you barely use it, it’s just a good idea. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ John not at the point where you just use your phone and charge it every week or whatever, or every two days or every three days.

⏹️ ▶️ John Laptops are the same way. If you use it all day on battery, you’re gonna have to plug it in

⏹️ ▶️ John at night. If they can cross that next hurdle, you know, as the phones get better and as computers

⏹️ ▶️ John get better, if they can cross that next hurdle, it’s worth it for them to do it. But like Marco said, you have to weigh that against

⏹️ ▶️ John the, you know, the architecture change and a lot of stuff, and Intel’s not standing still. So we should be watching

⏹️ ▶️ John both of these things, watching how much better phone battery life gets, you know, how much more they can ring out

⏹️ ▶️ John of those little system on a chip things. And then also watch Intel and how much better are they getting at making low

⏹️ ▶️ John power chips? Because by the time an arm powered system on the chip is powerful enough

⏹️ ▶️ John to not be embarrassing inside a Mac, I suspect Intel will also be at that same

⏹️ ▶️ John price in PowerPoint and it’ll, you know, be more of a fair fight between the two. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John not that fair because Intel will say, hey, everything you have is already compiled for us. And like I said in the show where we talked to a Bay

⏹️ ▶️ John Trail, Intel is going to be saying to Apple, don’t put ARM CPUs in your Macs, put Intel CPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John in your iOS devices. Then you’ll have one architecture across all your products and it will be great. It will make tons of money come with us.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s Intel’s end game plan. We’ll see how it works out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, also consider that of all the people that I know that use Macs, at almost every

⏹️ ▶️ Casey single one that isn’t an indie Mac developer that isn’t Marco or equivalent, every single

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of them runs either Parallels or VMware on a regular basis to do either their

⏹️ ▶️ Casey jobs or something they absolutely have to do in their personal lives. And that’s made

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot easier. And I think one of you alluded to this earlier. That job is made a lot easier because everything is Intel.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The chip is Intel, Windows is Intel, OS X is Intel, everything’s Intel. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if the chips suddenly became ARM, then you’d be going back to the god awful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey power PC days when wasn’t there a time where you would put like a full PC motherboard, not physically

⏹️ ▶️ Casey full, like all the bits of a PC motherboard, like an expansion slot in order to make virtualization possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t want to have anything to do with that. That

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann did

⏹️ ▶️ John exist. Right. I don’t think you have to worry about that in the days when even the Mac Pro has no internal slots anymore. So that’s not coming

⏹️ ▶️ John back.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You have a Thunderbolt PC.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. But you know what I mean. You know what I’m driving at. It’s just that if you change the processor architecture, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could make getting a Mac a lot harder an argument for a lot of people, myself included. I mean, I work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on Microsoft stuff all day. And I basically live in VMware Fusion most of my work day.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that would really shut the door on that. Or maybe not shut the door on it, but make it a lot uglier.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, both sides of that have big pluses and big minuses. And they’re on a collision

⏹️ ▶️ John course. We just sit back and watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, we good? Let’s wrap it up. Thanks a lot to our two sponsors this week, Squarespace and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Transporter. And we will see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And you can find the show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them at

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss,

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and T. Marco Harmon,

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann accidental, but you didn’t mean to. Accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Tech Podcasts so long.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, do you want to do titles?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really like Syracuse County Mall.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is pretty good

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey actually.

⏹️ ▶️ John No Syracuse County titles, come on. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will allow a veto, but I do also agree that that is really good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was my suggestion. You have to find a better one to override it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Irish pro graphics.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey When did you say that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Iris. It’s me mumbling the word iris like as in your eye, the colored part of your eye.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Accidental fashion podcast. I don’t think that should be the winner, but that is kind of funny.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ John No one has been trying to correct us on using false positive instead of false negative or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I almost corrected you and then I was like, I don’t know, I’m crazy and I’m missing something.

⏹️ ▶️ John I kind of like C-level executives with the C spelled wrong too. wrong too. What is it with you and

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann the stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John poems? I don’t know, I’m on a D. Shee-E. Brough- everyone I pick it’s been his suggestion. He’s on a roll today, what can I tell

⏹️ ▶️ John you? I like his suggestions this week. Sea level executives look good, it makes me think

⏹️ ▶️ John of like the the sea lion slide from WODC, it’s the big sea lion executive.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I might just do shoulder surfing or the pulling the rug out one.

⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann That’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or sea level executives.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not doing that

⏹️ ▶️ John one. What is wrong with you Because they’re like at sea level, you get it? They’re not up

⏹️ ▶️ John on a mountain, they’re not in Death Valley. level executives.