19: Designed by App in Cal
27 Jun 2013The WWDC intro video, Apple’s California pride, whether developers should require iOS 7, the new Calendar UI, and cool vs. usable designs.
Episode Description:
- John's review progress and show-duration predictors.
- The WWDC 2013 intro video. (Siri's WWDC 2012 intro)
- Apple's "Making a Difference, One App at a Time" video.
- "Designed by Apple in California".
- "Jobs" (Ashton Kutcher) trailer.
- Why developers should (or shouldn't) require iOS 7 this fall.
- "The Transporter" series.
- iOS 7 Calendar app UI.
- Cool-looking vs. well-designed.
- Our iTunes reviews.
- "Better" and "worse" programming languages.
Sponsored by:
- Audible: Download a free audiobook and start your 30-day trial.
- Transporter: Private cloud storage. Use coupon code atp for 10% off.
Transcript start
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This episode is brought to you by audible the leading provider of downloadable audiobooks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go to audible podcast calm slash ATP to learn more
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you’re gonna have like 16 hours in your car,
⏹️ ▶️ John oh, yeah, you’re gonna be gonna burn out the butt massager
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Should we tell the public when we were actually recording this so that if anything big happens next week that they know
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we probably should. So today it is June 21, which is a Friday.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco longest day of the year. Is it really? By some times, yes. It is the solstice.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ah, right, right, right. So we are recording today because Jon is traveling next week, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we didn’t want to leave our beloved fans slash listeners without an episode next
⏹️ ▶️ Casey week, so we’re recording very early and will release a week from today.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco today. So when Apple buys Nintendo on Monday we won’t know about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well I thought the plan was you were going to buy Nintendo on Monday then sell it to Apple and then they would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just shut it down and eat it alive.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Is that not a plan?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not a bad idea I mean that would give us more to talk about at least but then John wouldn’t be able to talk about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would just call you and just talk alone without John.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my god that would make him so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess somebody bought Nintendo huh? Anything to say about that?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not Not really, okay. I guess we’ll move on. Let’s talk about the Mac Pro some
⏹️ ▶️ Casey more. John, what would you do? I mean, honestly. You’d be so upset.
⏹️ ▶️ John I would think I would actually write a blog post about that. That’s how momentous that would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be so angry it would drive you to write a blog post.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’d be so motivated. Yeah, there’s so many things I want to write about, but it’s like, no, I don’t have time. Gotta go
⏹️ ▶️ John back to fretting about my review.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s true. How’s that going?
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m fretting about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco least it’s not July.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, that’s why I noted I didn’t say I’m writing. I’m writing about it
⏹️ ▶️ John as a full-time activity. I’m still gathering resources and
⏹️ ▶️ John trying to come up with an outline and thinking about, oh god, look at all the stuff I have to write.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then also thinking maybe it’ll be really short this year. I don’t know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, you gotta figure, they’re changing less and less in each release as the release time has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco gotten shorter, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Yeah, more or less, but like, I don’t know. I’ll have to see. I think it will be shorter. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s been the trend because they have, like you said, they’ve been doing less, but you never know when I’m going to go off on some weird tangent.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, maybe knowing you, you’re probably not going to make the review shorter. It’ll just give you more space
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and time to expand on things that you would have otherwise not gotten, not a time to get to. Well, like the 10.6
⏹️ ▶️ John review, I thought that was going to be super short because like Apple’s coming out up front, zero new features, like, oh, this is going
⏹️ ▶️ John be a short review. And
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it was shorter,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it wasn’t as short as I thought it was going to
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco be. It wasn’t like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, a few thousand words less. It wasn’t like a whole lot shorter.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And this one I think will be shorter still, but we’ll see. I don’t know. It’s quantity is not the thing. I just, quality.
⏹️ ▶️ John I want it to be interesting and good. And so I’m going to concentrate on that, assuming I ever finish fretting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. So speaking of shorter things, this might be a short episode because we have a laundry list of miscellaneous
⏹️ ▶️ Casey topics, but I don’t know how much we’ll actually get to.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey now that I’ve stated it’s a shorter episode, we’re going to go for two hours. So everyone buckle up.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is anytime John and Dan would say, Oh, this is going to be a short one of hypercritical.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would always immediately take out my iPhone from, you know, walking the dog and just look at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the timestamp and just see how much and it’s always like, you know, 110 minutes remaining or something like that.
⏹️ ▶️ John went through this. So I my listeners did a good job and did like statistical regression analysis
⏹️ ▶️ John to see that me saying it was going to be a shorter show did not in fact make the show
⏹️ ▶️ John longer and actually made it slightly shorter. And I don’t know enough about statistics to know whether like
⏹️ ▶️ John the statisticians argued amongst themselves whether it was significant or not, but there was no clear trend
⏹️ ▶️ John of the opposite just seems that way. It’s like, you know, it seems like it because it’s the opposite of what
⏹️ ▶️ John you would expect and it stands out in your memory, but in reality, they were actually not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love that both your audience and you know that. That
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John somebody actually went, that’s awesome. Somebody went and figured that out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Several people, several people, yes. Someone put the link in the show notes about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s fantastic. All right, so one of the things I wanted to ask you guys what you thought about, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this may or may not take very long, but there’s been a couple, or there were a couple of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey new Apple videos that were shown on the keynote Monday, or I believe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they were both keynote Monday. And the first one was the one that was at the very beginning
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the keynote itself. And I don’t know if it has a title, it probably does, and I’m not aware
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of, but it was a fairly abstract, black and white
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of almost essay about what Apple does in order to design products.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And to my recollection, I don’t remember them ever having started with a video. And I think we
⏹️ ▶️ Casey talked about this briefly one or two episodes ago, but they actually started with with a video this year and I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was a very interesting video that basically said, hey listen, the way I interpreted it was, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, this is how we do our thing and if you don’t like it, tough nuts. And I was curious what you two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had to say about that.
⏹️ ▶️ John They used to start with, you know, the Mac PC ads. Remember when they started a couple
⏹️ ▶️ John keynotes with those?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Didn’t they start last year’s keynote with the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco band thing? No, no, no, the guy walking in the woods who was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John blind and using an iPhone. That wasn’t the start.
⏹️ ▶️ John Start means like lights dim everyone you know gets ready to hear something instead of a person walking
⏹️ ▶️ John out on stage They just play a video, and I think the only other times they’ve done that are when they were showing ads
⏹️ ▶️ John like you know the the all-back PC ads with Justin Long and Hodgman
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well even you can kind of argue that they’re all heads
⏹️ ▶️ John But but like you know television ads that we’re gonna run television They would play that or custom ones like where
⏹️ ▶️ John this was not gonna actually run in television But those characters come out, but the difference about this one is it wasn’t wasn’t,
⏹️ ▶️ John it wasn’t fun. It wasn’t supposed to be like funny. And it wasn’t an advertisement
⏹️ ▶️ John using known properties or showing a product or something. It was more like a
⏹️ ▶️ John mission statement, kind of a statement of philosophy or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I thought, as I said, I think on the first in the podcast, we did right after the keynote,
⏹️ ▶️ John that that was like, okay, this is gonna be something big. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John when a video begins with, in the course of human events, like, you know, like, they’re going to, oh my god,
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is opening an Apple store on the moon and they’re, you know, whatever. Like, it’s going to be
⏹️ ▶️ John something momentous or significant for the company or maybe they were buying Nintendo, like, you know what I mean? Like, something at
⏹️ ▶️ John that level. And what followed in the keynote did not live up to that lofty goal. And so then, in hindsight,
⏹️ ▶️ John the video, which is beautifully produced and very interesting and contains a lot of, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John accurate content about how Apple sees itself and how we see Apple comes off as pretentious because
⏹️ ▶️ John what they released was great and awesome, but
⏹️ ▶️ John that video should have been saved for when they do something more momentous.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you did or did not like it all
⏹️ ▶️ John the time? I love the video. I thought it was beautiful. It was nicely done. Like, you understand what it’s saying, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John feel like it was out of balance. It’s like you can’t start with that. And
⏹️ ▶️ John everyone’s like, oh my God, what is it gonna be? And what it is, is great, but not like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I don’t know, I mean, maybe, when could Apple have gotten away with that? They can get away with it at the original Mac intro
⏹️ ▶️ John and probably the iPhone intro. That’s about it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You really think it was overblown? I didn’t think it was overblown at
⏹️ ▶️ John Slightly, it was just slightly overblown. Not ridiculously overblown, but slightly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know, I wouldn’t say that either. And by the way, I should point out, The chat room is saying that last year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Siri kind of comedy stand-up video,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the intro last year,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it? Yeah, because they did like a little GarageBand bit, like, well, it was like a rim shot,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco drum roll. Yeah, it was like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri’s comedy act. 🎵
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I believe that was the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco intro, so I think they’re right. Anyway, I don’t think this year’s intro video was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco overblown or overstating the case at all. I think… I mean, looking at the keynote,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco As soon as, I mean, right afterwards we were all excited and, you know, as you said, we all thought it was pretty great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, you know, with some time for it to sink in and get a little bit less shiny looking back on it, I still think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was awesome. I still think it was a really, really great keynote. It was one of the best ones we’ve had for years. I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco agree. And there was a lot. Not only was the energy really great,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the showmanship was really great with the exception of that weird car demo, but besides that, everything was great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then what they showed us was also pretty great. You had this revolutionary
⏹️ ▶️ Marco change in iOS, a nice update to OS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco X with mediocre scale improvements, but a nice update.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the big thing was iOS, and then this surprise Mac Pro, which to most people doesn’t matter, but to a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco few people, including the three of us, it’s really interesting and extremely surprising.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Plus, you know, better MacBook Air. I think it was a really good keynote.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but if you’re going to explain your philosophy, the products
⏹️ ▶️ John they introduced were not out of character for the company or shocking or going to knock
⏹️ ▶️ John the industry on its ear or anything like that. And so that’s why it’s out of balance a little bit. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iOS 7 might.
⏹️ ▶️ John think it would be better if that video was just on their website, it would be fine. But
⏹️ ▶️ John using it as a lead in to introduce a bunch of products that more or less everybody expected and
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like that aren’t that aren’t like the original Mac or the iPhone, where it’s just like
⏹️ ▶️ John nobody saw that coming. And it was just out of left field and it far exceeds expectations. And I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s crazily out of balance. It’s just a little bit out of balance. And I do think the keynote was great. I think all the announcements
⏹️ ▶️ John was great. I think it was very impressive again, except for the car thing. But you know, it’s tough
⏹️ ▶️ John to pull that off. Because you want all those things they said you want to say those things and it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John difficult to say them without sounding a little bit full of yourself because you’re telling them why
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re great and You have to do it in a way that isn’t insulting and it’s very difficult to pull that off And I think
⏹️ ▶️ John the only way you can like think different is kind of similar where think different kind of pulled it off because there Was no attachment
⏹️ ▶️ John it wasn’t lead into any sort of products Just like pure like this is the philosophy of the company and that didn’t sound pretentious that
⏹️ ▶️ John sounded Foolhardy perhaps because like you almost went bankrupt. You’ve got nothing What the hell
⏹️ ▶️ John do you think you’re going to make? You know, a teal computer, so what, right? And in hindsight, it looks good, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John But here, I’m saying just in the context of using that as the lead in, they didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John put anything in there that they needed that video. You could have, you know, like the Johnny Ive videos
⏹️ ▶️ John where he tells you about their philosophy are more product focused and would match up better with
⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of product announcements, versus like the philosophical thing with something revolutionary
⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, if they’re going to enter some new business or something, maybe I can see that. But anyway, I like the video. I watch
⏹️ ▶️ John it again. Every time I watch it, I’m impressed by whoever made this video. It did an awesome job. It’s very clever, and nice, and
⏹️ ▶️ John tasteful. And I do like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Well, wouldn’t you also, I mean, the video also sets the stage for iOS 7,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco specifically. Like, it’s specifically about clearing away everything, starting over again, taking away
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s unnecessary.
⏹️ ▶️ John But they had their own iOS 7 intro video, which was also very good, but so much more product-focused. And it kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of hit some of the same points.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, I mean, I think that’s why it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was important. This was like laying the foundation for the iOS 7 video later on, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for us to accept that the iOS 7 design decisions were correct
⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s what I think that video was a lead in for. I think it was a lead in for the Tim Cook era, where this
⏹️ ▶️ John is the first big party for Tim Cook’s newly rearranged Apple and what they can do.
⏹️ ▶️ John It wasn’t stated as such, but in hindsight, it looks like if you had to say, what
⏹️ ▶️ John was that video about? Because it wasn’t about a new Mac Pro. And I think it was kind of about iOS 7,
⏹️ ▶️ John but the iOS 7 video was more about that. It was more about… It’s like Tim Cook’s
⏹️ ▶️ John thing different. Not really, but like he’s saying, here we are, this is the new Apple,
⏹️ ▶️ John the forestall-less Apple, I guess, the new Tim Cook Apple with something new showing
⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, we really can move on from all the things that Steve Jobs created just to do something great
⏹️ ▶️ John in his absence, something that he didn’t foresee and didn’t have a hand in. In hindsight, I think that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John what that video will match up best with.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, what I think, I think what the video did for me was, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, Apple hadn’t said anything since what October, November, something like that. What was it? The iPad mini release?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was the last Apple event.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, so this was, to me, it kind of set the stage for, here’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple, I know we haven’t said anything for almost a year now or eight months, whatever the number was, here’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s just remind everyone this is how we roll, and this is what we do, and we’re going
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to keep that mindset while we show you all this cool crap with the exception of the weird car demo.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think it was a really nice way to set the stage. Was it overblown? I mean, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think it was, but I can see your point, John. But I think it was all about setting the stage
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for, you know, this is Apple. This is, we are Apple. This is what we care about. And if you don’t like that,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey shove off. But this is how the next two hours are going to be. I don’t know. That’s what I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought. OK, so what about, did you guys watch the video that they did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not show during the keynote, which is called making it or I don’t know if it’s called making a difference one app
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at a time. But it was something like that. It was like an eight minute video or something along
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I haven’t even watched
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s interminable.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s long. It’s 10 minutes long, but it seems long.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it is, I watched the whole thing. It is beautifully produced, it is nice, it’s heartwarming,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it really depends on your goodwill towards Apple to accept the connection
⏹️ ▶️ John between Apple and all the good things that they’re showing happening in there. They are good things, but are they necessarily
⏹️ ▶️ John related to Apple? Technology helps people in all sorts of ways, and all sorts of companies are behind that technology,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s good that Apple’s technology helps people in that way, but I don’t think I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a distinguishing characteristic that makes Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John stand out. Unlike the design video, which shows, you know, what they put in that design
⏹️ ▶️ John video are the ways that Apple is different than most other companies. Whereas I think any
⏹️ ▶️ John company that makes a technology product that can be used to help people could have made a video like the one that Apple made there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Although at least it shows that Apple cares that this is how their products are. This is what they’re thinking of when
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re making their products. want to see this type of outcome. But it’s easy to be cynical about it. And you know, like Monsanto could
⏹️ ▶️ John have made the same ad. It would have been like, damn them. This is not really what Monsanto is like. And with Apple,
⏹️ ▶️ John like, that’s kind of what Apple’s like. But on the other hand, what technology company? Microsoft could have made the same video.
⏹️ ▶️ John Their products are helping people in similar ways, you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I really liked it. Part of the reason I liked it was because it featured Charlottesville, Virginia, which is just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an hour west of here, and I used to live there. But beyond that, I thought it was really touching and heartwarming.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the blind hiker guy from last year’s keynote. I just thought it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey well done. And you’re right that anyone could have made a video like this. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love that Apple cares enough to not only make a video that’s like one or two minutes, but they made like an
⏹️ ▶️ Casey eight or nine minute video all about why and how their devices
⏹️ ▶️ Casey literally improve people’s lives. And I just think it’s cool that they even pay lip service to that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being a priority, whether or not it is a priority, although I would argue it is given all their accessibility
⏹️ ▶️ Casey priority work and things of that nature. I don’t know, Marco, what did you think? Well, you didn’t see the video,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I don’t care.
⏹️ ▶️ John It would have been, I mean, like, the reason the Hiker thing worked for me, I think, is because Tim was there doing the intro
⏹️ ▶️ John and afterwards talking about it to say, to say, this is not just a heartwarming video. Let me tell you personally,
⏹️ ▶️ John from my heart, in a convincing way, that this is what makes me get out of bed in the morning.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is what I’m trying to do with the company, and he’s the CEO. That makes that one land more, whereas
⏹️ ▶️ John having this video out there as a corporate statement, it’s nice and all.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s fine, but especially at 10 minutes long, if you’re going to use it as
⏹️ ▶️ John something to represent your company, no one’s going to watch that 10 minute long video. Very few people are, I think.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Except you and me, apparently.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Certainly not Marko. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco haven’t even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have so many Apple videos that I want to watch. I still have like eight or nine sessions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I wanted to watch that I didn’t get a chance to see. Yeah, so
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s another thing I’m doing instead of writing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I felt the entire plane ride home I was watching sessions and even like the day
⏹️ ▶️ Marco after I got home watching sessions and see now remember we were talking before about how like you know once you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco once you leave that week like it’s no longer your job to be in those sessions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so you just never get around to doing it. Well I’m seeing that now like I have like these these eight more sessions that I really want to watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John what is your time to do
⏹️ ▶️ John it? I’m assigning It’s your job, since you don’t have any other job.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, you’re unemployed. What else do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you have to do?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey right, exactly. He’s supposed
⏹️ ▶️ John to be making an app or something. But I’m saying, no, that job starts in a few weeks. This week, your job is to watch WBC videos.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then give John the Cliff Notes for anything related to this
⏹️ ▶️ John No, I got to watch myself.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know you do. All right, there were a couple other videos I wanted to briefly touch on. The first was,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t remember if they showed this during the keynote. I believe they did at the very end, but the new commercial about design by Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in California. And this kind of ties in with the one we mentioned at the beginning, and that was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the beginning of the keynote, where they said at the end of the video, something along the lines of, it’s only then we sign
⏹️ ▶️ Casey our work and then they flash up Designed by Apple in California. In this other video, they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey show people just using their products in everyday things and everyday scenarios. And again, at the end, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Designed by Apple in California. So one of the things you can easily see between these two videos that literally bookended
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the keynote and then OS 10 Mavericks, which was in the middle, by the way, I still hate that name. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of this is go California, yay California, yay California. And why
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or when did they get so excited about California? Not to say that’s bad before we get a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey zillion angry Californians, but when did this become a thing?
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s been on the back of their products since Jobs came back, practically.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I mean, it seems like there’s a new emphasis behind it, and I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco know what brought that on. Well, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco less about California and more about made in the USA at this point, I think. I mean, you know, the California
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pride has always been there. And you’re right, that was a lot of jobs right there. But I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think at this point, this is them saying, kind of responding to all the Chinese worker
⏹️ ▶️ Marco controversy kind of things from the last year, saying, you know what? No, we can bring something to the US.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And now, this is something they can say, like, especially with the Mac Pro, now they can really say, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, look, this is like a whole US computer right here. As long as you don’t check where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John RAM was made. Yeah, I mean, because what else? Well, who
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, the A6 CPUs, I think, aren’t they manufactured in Texas?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They are, but what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John about all the RAM? The Flash and the DRAM?
⏹️ ▶️ John back to what Casey just said about, like, he liked the video because it showed a part where he lived. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John this, you know, this silly notion that we have of, like, attachment to place and sort
⏹️ ▶️ John of, you know, extension into, like, jingoism and nationalism of pride in countries,
⏹️ ▶️ John really pretty much nonsensical if you think about it for more than 10 minutes, but it is definitely a
⏹️ ▶️ John real thing, so I don’t blame them for playing into it. But yeah, like
⏹️ ▶️ John in the cynical view, is what Marcus said, you can view it as damage control for the Chinese factory things or whatever. Pride
⏹️ ▶️ John in California is no more or less ridiculous than pride in the United States is probably
⏹️ ▶️ John no more or less ridiculous than pride is made on earth. Like it doesn’t really matter where it’s made
⏹️ ▶️ John or where you’re from or anything like that. Is it a good product? Is it not a good product? as well, you’re not treating workers well,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, our country needs to have a good economy so keep the business in our company, not in someone else’s
⏹️ ▶️ John country because of imaginary lines or oceans or whatever. Like that,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I find that that’s why designing California bothers me a little bit because it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ John who cares? What is it about Cal? What is it about the borders of California that exists, you know, for historical
⏹️ ▶️ John reasons that have nothing to do with anything that makes you proud that the people who made it were in California
⏹️ ▶️ John when they made it and perhaps live somewhere else now and perhaps were born somewhere else.
⏹️ ▶️ John As dentist meat said in the chat room, I’m so ready to join Starfleet apparently. But yeah, no, it’s like the,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what they’re, I don’t think the, I think the by California takes away
⏹️ ▶️ John from their message because what they are is they’re proud that we made this thing. And this thing is good in these ways. And they show the people using
⏹️ ▶️ John the products and having fun with them. And, you know, it’s also beautifully shot and all the people are beautiful and, you you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John like that part of it is a legitimate message like, hey, we made something nice. And our products
⏹️ ▶️ John enhance people’s lives. So thumbs up, right, guys. That’s advertising. It’s fine. Like you
⏹️ ▶️ John can see it on Mad Men. But the geographic part of it, I find
⏹️ ▶️ John a little off putting, but probably other people don’t.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, California is itself also part of the advertising. And you know, it’s not like they chose
⏹️ ▶️ Marco California just for this. But I think they’re using it to their advantage now that they’re now that they’re there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco California has a really great reputation among, I think, most people, most Americans especially,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of being this really nice place and kind of this cool place and this kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of liberal hippie but cool great weather place. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that’s like where things happen. Except
⏹️ ▶️ John for LA, right? Are we leaving out LA?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John cares about LA?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, like, there aren’t that many states in the US with that great of a reputation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Where like you can say, oh yeah, we’re from Minnesota and you’re going to have like everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the whole country saying, wow, Minnesota? They made that in Minnesota? That’s so cool. This isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a major effect or a major part of their marketing or branding efforts, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is a small contributor. And especially in the wake of both the Chinese worker thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the wake of Samsung becoming this major competitor, this is them saying,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t support that Korean company.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John We’re an American company in California. Don’t you
⏹️ ▶️ John find that slightly off-putting? That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John it starts to get into, you know, anyway, I think it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, I find it off-putting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that all of our politicians have to end everything with, God bless America. Yeah, no, that’s older.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John But you can see
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Send email to Marco, please.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think, yeah, the California thing, to my memory, came in around the time Jobs
⏹️ ▶️ John came back again, and has stayed throughout. And it’s shorthand for, we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John proud that we did this. And they need some way to identify themselves. And they are a California
⏹️ ▶️ John company founded in California. And so that’s what they’ve chosen, because their employees come and go. Their executives
⏹️ ▶️ John come and go. A lot of the people who work there weren’t born in California. They don’t have much to hang their hat on. But
⏹️ ▶️ John insofar as a corporation can be seen as an entity with a place, Apple’s place
⏹️ ▶️ John is California. So that’s their shorthand for trying to refer back to themselves and their
⏹️ ▶️ John tribe as a collective entity.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and to that end, I mean, when you think of California and you think of business, other than Hollywood and perhaps
⏹️ ▶️ Casey music, what’s your first thought? I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple. Avocados? I don’t know. Fine. All right, never mind then. No, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, when I think of a big—well, maybe not a big business, but when I think of business in California, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think Hollywood, I think music, and I think Apple. And I would think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that most Americans would agree. I don’t know. All right. There’s one other video I wanted to ask you guys
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about and then perhaps Marco you can tell me about something That’s cool. But um, the other one I wanted to ask about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is today Which again is quite a long time before most of you will actually hear this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey episode The trailer for the Ashton Kutcher Steve Jobs movie came out. Did either of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you see this two-minute trailer,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John please? Marco time
⏹️ ▶️ John I did I did watch it didn’t I thought that maybe this is the that other Steve Jobs movie You know the
⏹️ ▶️ John good one because didn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John in a film festival and everyone panned it like a
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yes a year ago
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, like Panzerino, I think said mixed about it. He said it was in it if memory serves He said it was entertaining
⏹️ ▶️ John I never had high hopes for this movie and the trailer did not change my mind about that See, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John think I’ll even bother watching
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. So our friend Brad that well John you’ve never met him But Marco and I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and David Smith went and spent some time with Brad at the Sunday before WWDC he had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey commented on Twitter that the musical selections were just
⏹️ ▶️ Casey terrible. The musical editing was terrible, and I think he’s right. But I actually didn’t think the trailer was bad. I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is clearly taking a lot of creative license with the actual
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reality of what happened. But I don’t know, I thought it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John would be enjoyable.
⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s the question, Casey. If you were tasked with making a parody of this trailer, how would you do it?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would have made the same trailer.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I’m saying. It is not like, it is so overblown. And like, ignore the
⏹️ ▶️ John fact that it’s just like the people who made the movie just I mean clearly the people who made this movie do
⏹️ ▶️ John not and cannot understand what it was that was important about all these things that Apple did, which is
⏹️ ▶️ John fine I guess because if other people don’t care like just treat it as fiction, but even within the realm of fiction it’s so
⏹️ ▶️ John overblown where everyone is just screaming and so emotional and dramatic about things
⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re saying nonsense the whole time right because again people they don’t understand what was important about the Apple,
⏹️ ▶️ John what was important about the Mac, what was important about the iPhone, they They have no idea, like no earthly clue. It’s kind of like the
⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Jobs biography, but even more extreme, the Isaacson biography, where if you don’t understand
⏹️ ▶️ John what was important about the original Mac, there’s no way you can make a movie about it, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but that’s not their—their goal is not to be accurate. Their goal is to be, like, good to watch, to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John an interesting movie. Well, I mean, it’s like, based on a true story,
⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not like, you know, a retail—because I think it’s not so much—that’s not the case in a lot of other movies. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of political dramas or things about important parts in American history, Like the
⏹️ ▶️ John Lincoln movie, which I didn’t see. I’m assuming that that movie understood that what was important about the Civil War
⏹️ ▶️ John was like keeping the Union together and slavery. The major issues were there and understood.
⏹️ ▶️ John But because it’s about technology, and it’s not as important as those things that everyone
⏹️ ▶️ John can relate to, they don’t know what was important about the Apple II. They’re not quite sure.
⏹️ ▶️ John But they know it was important, and they know people got rich from it, and they know it has something to do with nerds and electricity, and
⏹️ ▶️ John so let’s just go, you know what I mean? Whereas no one’s like, something about slavery, but was slavery, I think slavery
⏹️ ▶️ John was bad. Like, I don’t remember. Something about that. But anyway, that’s not really important. We just want to show the dramatic scenes of
⏹️ ▶️ John Abraham Lincoln. No, you have to understand what’s behind it. Otherwise, you’re not, you know, you’re making a movie loosely based
⏹️ ▶️ John on the Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. Not really, you know, so whatever. Like, I don’t think this
⏹️ ▶️ John movie is going to make any waves. It will come and go. We will forget it, mercifully.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco How about just a blanket rule that I’m just going to not even watch any trailers for any of these Steve Jobs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco various things. Just if anybody makes a good one, just let me know.
⏹️ ▶️ John Afterwards. Well, there’s the Sorkin one. Isn’t he doing one? Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes, he is. And he did the… Oh, this isn’t that? He did
⏹️ ▶️ John the… No, this is not that. He
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey did the Facebook movie. How many of these things are there? No, this
⏹️ ▶️ John is the terrible one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Ashton Kutcher. Well, no, no, no, no. That’s not fair. There was one made by Funny or Die that I was dumb enough to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch in its entirety, and I want that hour back.
⏹️ ▶️ John Isn’t that supposed to be a joke?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it was so painfully bad. And the comedy of it is, Justin Long is Steve Jobs. Jobs. Justin
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Long, the I’m a Mac Justin Long, was Steve Jobs. And I should have known from the title,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I think was I, Jobs, that it was going to be friggin terrible. And friggin terrible
⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t begin to describe how bad that movie was.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like an SNL skip that goes on for an hour.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, but during that terrible time in SNL when it was not even in the realm of funny.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, I don’t even I feel like John Syracuse right now. I’m so fired up and angry about this.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, let’s take a break from talking about terrible entertainment. Let’s do that. good entertainment.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This episode is sponsored by Audible. They’re the leading provider of downloadable audiobooks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have over a hundred thousand titles in virtually every genre. So if you want to listen to something,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Audible has it. Listen to audiobooks anytime, anywhere. You can listen to them on iPhones,
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re offering ATP listeners a free audiobook along with a 30-day trial.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to audiblepodcast.com slash ATP to take advantage of the special
⏹️ ▶️ Marco offer. Get a free audiobook, free 30-day trial, audiblepodcast.com
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP. Now Audible likes if their hosts have something to recommend, a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain book. It helps, you know, to get started because then you know like, okay, what do you want your free audiobook to be? So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you guys have any great recommendations of great audiobooks you’ve heard recently?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have recommendations of books I’ve read. I’ve not heard them on audiobooks,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey confident that they are excellent. I have two. The first one, which everyone will judge me for,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the new Dan Brown book, which I believe is called Inferno.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know, I know. So I actually quite like that one, but I’m a sucker for Dan Brown
⏹️ ▶️ Casey books. They’re easy reads, they’re exciting, and so I like that. The other one is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a book that my wife recommended, which is called The Art of Racing in the Rain,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and It was a little bit on the emotional side and a little less on the racing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey side. But there was enough racing to keep me excited and entertained. And I actually really like that one as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey well. So I would recommend both of those.
⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s what Audible is good for. I would never recommend someone read
⏹️ ▶️ John this recommendation, I’m going to say. But on audio, this is the ideal place for it. So
⏹️ ▶️ John what I did when I was looking at this, I went to the Audible Icon website and I searched for Stephen King, who’s one of my favorite authors.
⏹️ ▶️ John Again, feel free to judge. And I got 145 results, which I guess doesn’t surprise
⏹️ ▶️ John me because he’s got a lot of books. But they have, I mean, I don’t know if they have all of them, but they have a lot,
⏹️ ▶️ John all right? And what I’m going to recommend is the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, which is like a gazillion
⏹️ ▶️ John pages. And if I line them up on the shelf in hardcover and I said, oh, you should really read this book series, you’d be like, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. There’s no way I am reading that. Because it’s just too much. can recommend one book
⏹️ ▶️ John and like oh maybe I’ll read it and see if I like it but recommending a seven book series that took place basically over the
⏹️ ▶️ John course of my entire life from you know from 1970s and it ended in the 2000s right but an
⏹️ ▶️ John audio they have every single one of these an audio and if you’re on a long car trip
⏹️ ▶️ John or you’re gonna be traveling or you’re just you know gonna listen to it over the summer at the beach or when you’re out mowing
⏹️ ▶️ John the lawn you just get every single one of the seven books and just plow through them and that is probably
⏹️ ▶️ John the only way most people are ever going to read a multi-thousand page epic like the Dark Tower.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it is, we haven’t done the incomparable podcast about this
⏹️ ▶️ John series yet. We will eventually. I think it’s great. Even when it goes off the rails a little
⏹️ ▶️ John bit, I think it all comes together in the end. So that’s my recommendation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this is also, I would like to say that one reason I do like audiobooks, especially, first of all, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco traveling in cars and everything, it’s awesome for all that. But one thing I like about them is I actually like when a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco books are abridged, because a lot of books need to be abridged. You
⏹️ ▶️ John know? No, I hate when they’re abridged. I was going to specifically mention these Dark Tower ones are unabridged,
⏹️ ▶️ John which I like. But I guess Audible has both. So if you’re the kind of person who doesn’t want to hear all the words in the book, then
⏹️ ▶️ John they have that for you. But I highly
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey recommend the unabridged.
⏹️ ▶️ John Judge, judge, judge. The unabridged. Show title, there you go.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thank you very much to Audible for sponsoring this episode of ATP. get a free audio book and 30-day
⏹️ ▶️ Marco trial, go to audiblepodcast.com. Thanks a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. What’s next?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So the other thing I wanted to ask you guys about, and perhaps more, Marco, than anyone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey else, since you haven’t done any of your other homework, is what do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you suspect people will do? And I think we’ve touched on this briefly, but what do you suspect
⏹️ ▶️ Casey app developers will do with regard to dropping support of old versions of iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey when iOS 7 out. I feel like we’ve glanced off the outer atmosphere of this topic, but I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s more to be said. So let’s suppose that you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey haven’t sold everything that you own, and let’s suppose you still had at least one popular
⏹️ ▶️ Casey app, be that Insta something else or Instapaper or whatever. What do you think you would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do? I mean, you’ve said in the 300 other podcasts you were on this week that you’re probably going to stick
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with iOS 7 for this new thing. But what do you think you would do if you had
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a successful existing iOS app?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a really good question. Because, yeah, obviously, I think if you’re making a new app and you have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no legacy to support, I would say no question, make a brand new one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and require iOS 7, period. No question?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, you can’t say no
⏹️ ▶️ John question. But say you’re EA and you’re going to release a game, you’ve got
⏹️ ▶️ John developer like a one or two person shop making an application Yeah, then they should
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco go right I was seven only
⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially I am also referring to Applications where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They aren’t custom making most of their entire interface like you know a game has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually an entirely custom interface That doesn’t use any standard widgets or anything At least
⏹️ ▶️ John but even not a game like if say you say Evernote didn’t exist but they formed a company six months ago,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re about to come out with their first product. It’s going to be called Evernote. It’s a note-taking type of thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I would still say don’t make it iOS 7 only. I think that is a luxury that you
⏹️ ▶️ John have if you know that, well, you’ll get into this, I’m sure,
⏹️ ▶️ John eventually. Because the other side of this coin is you can stand out from the pack
⏹️ ▶️ John by being iOS 7 only and being the only app that accurately links up with iOS. But I guess Microsoft
⏹️ ▶️ John Office would be another example of their even though their new iOS office is not all that impressive if Microsoft
⏹️ ▶️ John Office came out like the real Microsoft Office not just like a SkyDrive application lets you view and minimally edit apps
⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t that they have to support iOS 6 they can’t say oh no Microsoft Office own for iOS 7
⏹️ ▶️ John only because that that offers a no advantage and offers a mostly disadvantaged so it’s not quite as
⏹️ ▶️ John universal I think as you’re saying but for you it definitely is universal and for lots of other people
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a way to to stand out from the pack because if you were the first to-do app that is truly iOS 7 native and look, feel,
⏹️ ▶️ John and functionality, you stand out more than if you just make another to-do app that works on iOS 6 and 7.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, and part of it also is about why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your app exists, right? If you are somebody like Evernote or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Instagram or Twitter, you know, like a big web service where your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco primary business is not selling your app for a few bucks. Your primary business is this big web service,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially if it’s something social where you need to have as many people as possible, then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you should be compatible with as many versions as possible. Then you might still need to run on iOS 5, who knows?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Probably not 5, but you at least couldn’t go 7 only so soon, because that would
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really hurt your bottom line to lose all those free users. That would hurt the bigger
⏹️ ▶️ Marco product too much, probably, for a while. And similarly, if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re that kind of company, you should probably also have an Android app and a Windows Phone app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and even a Windows 8 app just to get, because you need to be everywhere, right? But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most people, most iOS developers are doing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are in one of two situations. Either they’re doing contract work for somebody else, which is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would assume, based on just anecdotal evidence and talking to people everywhere,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would assume that contractors are probably probably the bulk of the people programming for iOS.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would, if not the majority, I bet they’re a massive portion. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so if you’re contracting for somebody else, you might not be able to make this choice, or at least not yet, or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you might not be able to be that aggressive with it. So, you know, that will just depend on your client and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your business needs. But if you’re in the segment of developers, like what I usually do, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, you know, you sell an app for money, and, you know, in some form whether it’s whether it’s the magazine
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with an app purchase or something else with an app purchase or whether it’s a few bucks up front for the app
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Vesper, an Instapaper, you know that kind of stuff. If you’re in that business where you need to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco money from the app and you’re better off having a better app that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people will talk about and think is worth money and you’re better off targeting people who will spend money
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on an app, then not only does that weight you more towards newer devices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and people who upgrade quickly anyway, but then you really can stand out by, as you said,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you really can stand out by having a really, really nice iOS 7 app from early
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on in that OS’s release cycle. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re in that kind of situation, and obviously I think it’s very important to recognize whether you are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or not, but if you’re in that kind of situation where you can benefit from having a really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great app for the new OS and you’re targeting people with money, then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s very safe to require it within about a month of the launch.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think one thing everyone can agree on, assuming Apple’s numbers are accurate and I have no reason to doubt them, is that it’s probably
⏹️ ▶️ John safe for everyone if you’re making a new application to drop iOS 5.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah. Because 6, 93% like it doesn’t matter who you are, that’s safe,
⏹️ ▶️ John right, at this point.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Unless you’re targeting the iPad, then it’s a little bit less safe.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I guess if you have an app that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iPad only. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John And specifically targeted to people who are likely to have old iPads. But 90, it’s not going to get any safer than
⏹️ ▶️ John that. When are you going to have a higher number than that in adoption? As a lot of people were pointing out on Twitter today,
⏹️ ▶️ John or maybe it was just one person, I cannot keep track before I read these things. iOS 7 probably
⏹️ ▶️ John won’t be like that because iOS 6 stretched back pretty far, like a surprisingly far amount down to lower,
⏹️ ▶️ John crappier devices. is iOS 7 draws the line a little bit closer up. And so it will probably,
⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll have to wait for those old devices to age out and it will probably be a long, long time before
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iOS 7 or greater
⏹️ ▶️ John has. That’s not true. They, no,
⏹️ ▶️ John no, 6. You don’t think so?
⏹️ ▶️ John thinking specifically of my cruddy iPod Touch that runs iOS 6 and totally shouldn’t.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey well, iPod Touch. No, no, no, I’m saying, I’m at 3G. The iPod Touch is
⏹️ ▶️ John the, 3GS is the other example, like that it could run iOS 6, but you know.
⏹️ ▶️ John But what does 7 go down to though? it goes down to the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for it supports everything that six does except the three G s and that iPhone four
⏹️ ▶️ John any iPod touch except for the most recent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right yeah yeah the one that was based on the iPhone for internals it does not support that one but it supports
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the recent ones and all and which is everything has been for sale except for the cheapest one until two weeks ago
⏹️ ▶️ John well only the only iPod touch it supports is the absolute most recent one right it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco support yes but that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit distorted because they skipped a year of the iPod Touch, which,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John as you know. Maybe
⏹️ ▶️ John my view of things is also skewed because I’m an iPod Touch household. So it seems to me that it’s like if they came out
⏹️ ▶️ John with Mavericks and the only Macs it ran on are the absolute latest model that they’re still currently
⏹️ ▶️ John selling in each product line. And you feel that way. But we’ll see. But the proof is in the pudding.
⏹️ ▶️ John How well does it run is what really matters. Because I wish I had not upgraded my old Touch
⏹️ ▶️ John to iOS 6 because it chugs. And so, yeah, it can run it. And I was initially
⏹️ ▶️ John happy that it was supported. And I guess I probably still am, because there are probably a lot of apps that are iOS 6 only. At least I can run them.
⏹️ ▶️ John But it is not happy at all.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. So yeah, I think 7 cuts off about the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco number of people probably as 6 did. And I don’t- If you’re not an iPod Touch user.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but if you’re an iPad user, it cuts off nothing. So maybe that balances out. Anyway, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not that worried about cutting off new devices for 7. I don’t think it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantially different than every other OS release in that regard. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, I don’t know. I think we are going to see some people holding back just because they don’t like the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes. Just like some people held back because they heard about maps or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on 6, or their jailbreaks don’t work until a certain date afterwards or something like that. Those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are all going to be small slices, and they’re all going to add up to something significant, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re all going to deteriorate over time. Once there’s a jailbreak out for 7, if there isn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco already, there might already be one, but once there’s a jailbreak out, then one of those big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slices goes away. Once there’s, you know, to various degrees of tethering
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the jailbreak, then everything all changes. Once most people get a little more comfortable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the idea of how it looks, then another slice starts falling away. Once a new device
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comes out that replaces something that was old and unsupported, like maybe when the next generation of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPod touch comes out, possibly this fall, who knows, maybe then some of the old iPod touch users
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who can’t run the new one, maybe they upgrade. And so then that slice falls away. And that’s always what happens with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco every release. There’s always, you know, these segments of people who either can’t or won’t run the new OS for a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited amount of time until either they change devices, old device dies or some condition changes that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was holding it back.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the way you’re talking, it almost sounds like if you still had Instapaper, you would make it iOS 7.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well no, Instapaper still doesn’t require iOS 6. Instapaper
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was set on requiring 5 for a while. I forget when I started requiring 5,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it was before 6 was out, but not by that much. I think a few months before 6 came out.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco With the magazine I was able to require six because I just didn’t care and I wanted all the new stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I wanted to use Avenir next without having to pay for it for iOS 5.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But again, I think, I mean there’s a few different factors here, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Obviously, again, if you don’t need tons and tons of people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco necessarily, if you just need good app sales, that’s different. If Instapaper was a brand new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app being released today, I would probably require… Well, today I’d require 6,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but… I don’t know. I think if it already required 6, and therefore
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it had already cut off all the iPad 1 people, then I wouldn’t have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much of a problem requiring 7 within about 2 months of 7’s release.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you also have to consider that the fallback, or the,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t think of the word I’m looking for, but in order to support both iOS 7 and iOS 6,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it stands to reason it’s a lot more challenging than simultaneously supporting 6 and 5.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I mean? So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco in other words, to-
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, not necessarily. I mean, it really depends, right? The magazine supports 7 with a very,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very small code change. It’s literally just like, you know, it’s hidden under the status bar accidentally, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you gotta like change that. That’s it. small change. And you can conditionally do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. You know, if I’m running on 7, do this. Otherwise, do this. You know, if there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco few enough of those conditions, that’s manageable. I think the big problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with trying to support 7 and 6 at the same time isn’t necessarily the code
⏹️ ▶️ Marco complexity, because you can make that work. You know, for the most part, you can deal with that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The big problem is by not fully adopting 7’s new interface
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff, your app will look old and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey feel old. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the big problem is it’s not about code. Well it would be about code if you actually need to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rewrite, you know, if you write two separate interfaces then it is about code. Please don’t do that. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it’s, you know, if it’s just about, you know, we have to work on both then what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna have is an iOS 6 app that happens to be compatible with seven and it’s going to look and feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iOS six app for the most part you know you’ll get like the new bar styles once you compile it for seven and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it won’t you won’t have any of the new navigation stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’ll be it’ll be a lot harder for you to add that in to an existing code base that has to also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco run on six all the time
⏹️ ▶️ John but there’s a potential pitfall in this though and that you could also end up with to use an os 10
⏹️ ▶️ John an application full of drawers. Do you remember? Maybe that was before your time. Do you remember
⏹️ ▶️ John the drawers in OS X?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, like in, that was one of the- They’re very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco heavily used in like the 10.3
⏹️ ▶️ John It was like one of their flagpole UI elements. They said, here’s Mac OS X, and it’s got a thing called Sheets
⏹️ ▶️ John that come down from the window. That was a new element. It’s got this thing called the Dock. That’s new. It’s also got these thing called drawers.
⏹️ ▶️ John And the mail application, Apple’s mail application originally featured a drawer, and everybody said, oh, I’m gonna have these
⏹️ ▶️ John drawers in my application. So any kind of application that would today have a sidebar, ended up with a drawer.
⏹️ ▶️ John And drawers ended up being not such a great idea. And so all these people are like, I’m going to be a native application. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be a carbon application where I’m going to use it. It’s going to be Cocoa. And I’m going to get to use drawers and do all this stuff and look
⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m native. And then everyone’s like, yeah, no, not so much on that drawer thing. And then you’re stuck with an application with drawers.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you go, oh, I’ve got to change this to a sidebar. So we don’t know what is the equivalent of drawers, if anything. Maybe there’s no equivalent
⏹️ ▶️ John of drawer in iOS 7.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, I would say a dynamics. There might
⏹️ ▶️ John be. Yeah, there might be something in there that’s like that, that seems like a good idea, and everyone jumps in the bandwagon and
⏹️ ▶️ John says, oh, look at this, I’m native, I’m a real iOS 7 application. And then everyone goes, ooh, actually, not so
⏹️ ▶️ John great. And then you’re forced to rewrite parts of your UI because that entire interface element
⏹️ ▶️ John or some aspect of it falls out of favor or is determined to not be a good idea. Not that that argues
⏹️ ▶️ John against doing it. You really should go whole hog into iOS 7, because someone’s got to find out if there
⏹️ ▶️ John are any drawers, to continue to talk to this analogy, lurking. And the only way you’re going to find out people
⏹️ ▶️ John make real applications using the system that Apple has devised and we’ll find out what works and what doesn’t, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think if I were to wager a guess, I think what will happen is a lot of these big apps,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say like Evernote, maybe that’s a little too big, but take Instapaper for example, maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’ll try to dance the, you know, we’ll still look like iOS 6 for the most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey part, we’re not going to look like the fancy new iOS 7 thing, and I don’t think that’s going to to work for very long.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that even your average customer is going to say, why does this look so old? Why doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it look better? And I suspect that people will hedge in the direction of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not requiring iOS 7. And then, Marco, I think you’ll end up right, that people will quickly end
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up requiring it after just a couple months.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also, you know, it’s gonna take a little while for developers to realize what they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco should do under iOS 7. You know, this is why, like, I’ve said, like, as soon as we get beta 2, which actually might be before
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this this podcast is released. But as soon as we get Beta 2, I’m installing it on my main phone, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I need to start learning it. I have it on this 4S, but I hardly ever use the 4S for anything, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has no data plans. It’s basically an iPod Touch. But I have an iPhone, so it’s never in my pocket.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m never using it. I need to immerse myself in iOS 7 as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a user, so I can start to understand how my app should be. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s going to take developers a while to get into that, I think.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do the 4S and the 5 have the same size sim? I don’t remember. I’m not sure.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess I could pop it over if they do.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s what I was going to say. If it were me, I don’t have a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco 4S. But it’s so chunky and the screen is so short.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Oh, it’s so terrible. The short
⏹️ ▶️ John screen is the one that’s going to kill you. I still like the 4 design better
⏹️ ▶️ John than the 5 design in terms of an object. the short screen
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re like you can’t go back once you get the taller one. It’s gonna be the same way when the iPhone Plus comes out.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, the chat is correcting us that actually no, they’re not the same SIM size.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, then you won’t have to suffer through the small screen then. Damn. Anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mind that my carry phone is a 4s, you spoiled jerks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s alright. You’ll probably upgrade this fall, right? Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a 2D air cycle? Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be fine. Alright, we have a second sponsor this week. This is a new sponsor.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s It’s called transporter. You might have heard about this from other tech podcasts because they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sponsoring all of my favorite shows. You probably have heard of them already. But we’re going to tell you about them anyway. This is transporter.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here’s the idea. Sharing the occasional photo, movie, or document online is simple enough. But trying to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco share and protect entire collections of files is far from simple. There are solutions out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there to do this. But most of them are cloud solutions. They require either recurring fees or a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lack of privacy, or it’s a lot of complexity. Transporter is special.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s your own private shared drive that you own and control, but it’s available from all your devices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and can even share folders with other transporters you choose anywhere around the world. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s basically like a hard drive enclosure with special software on it and a network port.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so all your data is stored directly on the transporter’s hard drive. It’s only shared with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people you specify, and so it’s completely private, unlike most cloud services.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And best of all, it’s really, really easy to use. You can just send an invitation to somebody that you want to share
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a folder with or anything, and they accept it, and that’s it. So obviously,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s an obvious comparison here to Dropbox. And what I love about Transporter is that they are not afraid
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for us to talk about Dropbox. They aren’t afraid to themselves talk about Dropbox and how they compare,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because obviously one question is why not just use Dropbox? They attack this question head on because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they are confident in their product to say there actually are a lot of advantages here. So one of the biggest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco advantages is that you own and control the hardware. And that gives you a level of control and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco privacy that you really can’t get with most other services including Dropbox. And any
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time data is transmitted, you can have two transporters that share a folder. So then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the files will sync every time you modify something. Or you can have a transporter at home
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and be somewhere like on your iPad or your laptop and pull files off of it using one of their apps. What’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great about this is the file never passes through transporter servers and all data along the way
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is encrypted end-to-end and only you have the key and it’s only stored locally in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those app storage so it’s never transmitted over the Internet. Nobody at Transporter, nobody on their servers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has access to the data, nobody has the keys over there, their staff can’t read your data, you know, if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they get some kind of weird government request they can’t do anything because they can’t read the data. It’s really great
⏹️ ▶️ Marco end-to-end encryption so it’s a level of privacy and control that a lot of businesses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco need and a lot of people feel safe having. So Transporter is sold in three different configurations.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can get one empty for 200 bucks and well 199 so 200 bucks. It can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use any two and a half inch hard drive so you can supply your own drive and you can also upgrade these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco later or or you can get a 1TB model for $2.99 or a 2TB model for $3.99.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, to learn more, go to filetransporter.com slash ATP.
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco all lowercase, after you select the model that you want to buy, and you get 10% off.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this is pretty good. 10% off the 2 terabyte model is $40. So that’s a lot of money off. So go
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⏹️ ▶️ Marco one directly with our coupon code, go to filetransporterstore.com and use coupon code ATP.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot for the transporter.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I should say that they sent, apparently, I’m their favorite because they sent me a demo unit to play with. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have never really played with network attached storage before, and this thing was set
⏹️ ▶️ Casey up pretty much immediately, and it is basically private Dropbox, in the best possible
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way. It really is pretty nice. And aren’t they coming out with a new version of their software? Am I making
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up? Yes, there’s a 2.0 version. It might be out by the time this podcast airs. I spoke with them today, and they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it might be. They’re storage people, so they’re very conservative with what they release. They want to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure it’s stable and everything like that. So yeah, so there’s going to be this big 2.0
⏹️ ▶️ Marco version that makes the software even better and gives you a lot of the conveniences that the Dropbox integrated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco software does with things like Finder integration and things like that. Also worth pointing out is that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco these capacities, I mean, to get 2 terabytes on Dropbox, you’re going to end up paying quite a lot. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because this is all your local storage, they can give this to you. And there’s no recurring fee
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the service. You buy the enclosure, and then just the price of the enclosure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco covers lifetime service from their servers to do the relaying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and coordination of the handshaking and the DNS stuff for your app to be able
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to find your transporter and everything. So there’s no monthly fees. You could buy the enclosure
⏹️ ▶️ Marco up front and you’re set. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey anyway, really great
⏹️ ▶️ Casey product. It’s really nice.
⏹️ ▶️ John It really is. All right. Before we move on, I have one brief thing to say about the transporter. I know
⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of nerds who hear about this, and I think the first time I heard about it on a podcast ages ago thought like
⏹️ ▶️ John it sounds like a step backwards because like well a drop box so everything’s in the cloud I don’t have to worry about storage
⏹️ ▶️ John anymore and then these people want to sell me a hard drive in a box like didn’t we already do that like I’m we moved on from
⏹️ ▶️ John having hard drive in a plastic box or whatever but you know I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ John heard as I’ve you know learn more about the product and looked at it like I what I do is I fast
⏹️ ▶️ John forward in my mind like 10 20 years and what what are these like what got me is watching the video on their
⏹️ ▶️ John site where they show like, you know, always in these videos where they show a nice a nice house with transporters all over
⏹️ ▶️ John and everyone’s work desk has a transport on it or whatever. So if you think about these things are already pretty small, like if you look at them, you know, it’s a two and
⏹️ ▶️ John a half inch drive, they’re already pretty small, but shrink these things down in 1020 years to be like similar capacities.
⏹️ ▶️ John But now they’re the size of a thumb drive. And like, they barely need any energy, or maybe they like get all
⏹️ ▶️ John their energy wirelessly or something like that, and have way more of them. And that is actually like
⏹️ ▶️ John more of the future. Because instead of having a single central service using like Amazon S3 as its back end or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John you have a real truly completely distributed system where everyone’s house is just littered
⏹️ ▶️ John with these little things that deal with their storage and they’re all redundant and talking to each other and completely secure and there is no
⏹️ ▶️ John central point of failure and people aren’t control of their own data because they control, oh, I put these three at home,
⏹️ ▶️ John these four at work, these up in the vacation house or whatever, and your own data, you get all the benefits
⏹️ ▶️ John of a cloud where you can get at it anywhere and it’s redundant and you don’t I have to be like, oh, my
⏹️ ▶️ John power went out of my house, but I still have access to my work transporter, and it synced with my home one or whatever. And that actually
⏹️ ▶️ John sounds more like the sci-fi books, where it’s like a distributed network of completely independent little
⏹️ ▶️ John tiny storage pods, instead of relying on a single company to do your cloud
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah, and plus, you get one of these at home, one of these at work. That’s going to be way cheaper
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than having two terabytes of S3 storage that you have to pay for every month.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and it might actually be faster, too. Dropbox occasionally gives me data
⏹️ ▶️ John rates that I know are not anywhere close to maxing out my Fios connection. And I don’t know if they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John throttling it, or if S3 is cranky, or if I’m talking to a server in Seattle and it’s far away from me and it’s a lot of hops.
⏹️ ▶️ John But even just waiting for the audio files to upload to you, they’re not
⏹️ ▶️ John going at the speed of my upload connection. Whereas if we both had transporters, the only thing
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco would be stopping and just being our internet
⏹️ ▶️ Marco connection. That’s a great example, because that’s one of the problems I have with a lot of online backup services and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like that is that I have this awesome fat files connection and a lot of servers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or services can’t accept my files fast enough. That’s one of the reasons why previous sponsor,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Backblaze, why I like them so much because Backblaze can actually accept my uploads
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really quickly and usually as fast as I’m willing to send them, whereas a lot of other services
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t do that. But yeah, this is even better. This is just going direct from your pipe at home
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to wherever you’re requesting it from. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey thanks to the Transporter.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, thank you very much and thanks for sending at least one of us a demo unit. I really do like it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think pretty much anything called the Transporter is cool because you had the movies, right? I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John mean, that was… Oh, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey going to get so
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco much email. When
⏹️ ▶️ John you Google for it, the movie isn’t the number one hit, but they’re the number two, so they’re doing pretty well. That’s pretty good. SEO.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was a very, very popular movie series. It’s so bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was entertaining. It was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco bad. It was! It
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like the pinnacle of bad entertaining movies. And Jason Statham, is that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how you say his name? He is in so many bad entertaining movies. But I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Transporter, especially the first one, is just like the best example of this category.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But didn’t he use Audis the whole time? So we can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch this. Yeah, I believe it was a, I believe they were A8 with the W12.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kidding. Yeah, they were all the big Audis, if memory
⏹️ ▶️ Casey serves. I only saw the first one I think and it was an A8 if memory
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco serves. Yeah but it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco had the W12 engine I believe so it was like the souped up A8. Yeah whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway I have another couple things we can talk about but I’ve been Captain Dictator
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so do you guys have something you would like to share?
⏹️ ▶️ John Did I complain about the iOS 7 calendar already?
⏹️ ▶️ John Like I had this in my mind as soon as I saw the keynote and I was like oh it’s just a little thing not a big
⏹️ ▶️ John deal It’s a beta or whatever, but it’s just been annoying at me. And then I always thought, well, maybe I already complained about it. But
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, if this is a repeat, I apologize. I’m old. I’m senile. And blame the other two for not reminding me that I already talked about it.
⏹️ ▶️ John So in the Google Docs file that I know you all constantly have open, there’s a link to an Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John Insider article that has the picture I want that I’m pretty sure was shown publicly, so we’re not breaking
⏹️ ▶️ John any NDA. But anyway, you can just go to appleinsider.com, and the link will be in the show notes. And do you guys
⏹️ ▶️ John have this picture up now?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, I got it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John This article? Took me a while
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to figure out how I click a link from
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Google Docs or you just
⏹️ ▶️ John like you know Marco can just pull up his ios7 device and look at the calendar I but look at the middle picture of the counter showing the month
⏹️ ▶️ John view I Think I complained about it on Twitter. Maybe that’s what I remember. You see that you see that
⏹️ ▶️ John Like we were all in the sessions and heard about the philosophy of ios7 and even in the keynote
⏹️ ▶️ John They talked about it about you know clarity and deferring to the content not having a lot of chrome getting in
⏹️ ▶️ John the way What’s important about this? I just want to see this stuff. And so a good example of that is the red dot on the number 17 in the screenshot
⏹️ ▶️ John showing you today is the 17th. You look at the screen, you can immediately find what day today is. It’s not like a subtle
⏹️ ▶️ John gray highlight or a little tiny underline. It’s like, boom, red circle. Today is the 17th, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Not a lot of vertical lines separating anything. And it’s very clean. The numbers are
⏹️ ▶️ John laid out there. But to me, and this happens to me in lots of calendar apps, on the Mac, in
⏹️ ▶️ John menu bar icons, anywhere, the most important thing, especially stupid outlook for the Mac. The most
⏹️ ▶️ John important thing for me to know is what the hell month am I looking at? That’s really important to me.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, oh don’t you know what the current month is? If you see the current day don’t you always know what the current… No! I don’t always know what the current month is, especially
⏹️ ▶️ John when it’s on around month boundaries or have we crossed over and stuff. And if you’re paging through and you’re not on the page with today, what month
⏹️ ▶️ John am I what month am I looking at? That is super important. That is like the most important piece of content
⏹️ ▶️ John on this page with the possible exception of what today’s date is. But even today’s date is meaningless if you don’t know what month it is
⏹️ ▶️ John and look how they treat the month in the month view on the calendar you see
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco where it is in the screen shots
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m looking at the old calendar app on my phone next to this to see for comparison and yeah
⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know if it’s better worse the same but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I know the old one it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like there’s like a second title bar below the main bar then it just says in big bold letters June 2013
⏹️ ▶️ John this one says John it does not say June it has the three-letter abbreviation
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like of all the content on this page it should be just gigantic and bold
⏹️ ▶️ John and not abbreviated, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, also, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to change positions as you flip through the months.
⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s like I was asking people on Twitter, why in the world? Like, this is so in conflict with their
⏹️ ▶️ John stated philosophy. Like, I think they even brought this up when they’re talking about the philosophy, but like, defer to the content. The content
⏹️ ▶️ John is king. We really just want to see, people just want to see their content. And the photo is like, look, we want to see your photos. We’re here,
⏹️ ▶️ John I want to see what the frigging month is. Like, oh, well, that’s not so important. We’re going to abbreviate it because it’s us to
⏹️ ▶️ John attach it right above the number one in the month. And you’re right, not only is it small, not only is it
⏹️ ▶️ John not emphasized, like it’s even less distinct than the back button, for crying out loud, it’s going to move on every single page
⏹️ ▶️ John because if the first day is a Friday or Thursday or Wednesday, it’s going to move around and continue to be abbreviated.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that, I mean, it’s, so what? They made one choice that is counter to what they’re doing,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I thought it wouldn’t bother me. It’s like, yeah, they made a bad decision in one application, those guys will fix it. I mean, the Notes app could be argued
⏹️ ▶️ John as even worse, but the weird letterpress style and the inset shadows and stuff or whatever, but like, big deal. They
⏹️ ▶️ John made, nobody’s perfect. They have a philosophy. They’re saying, this is what our philosophy is. This is our ideal.
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. We failed to achieve it. Uh, but as time has passed, it continues to just stick in
⏹️ ▶️ John my craw that I’m just like having them up there showing this application
⏹️ ▶️ John and saying those words. Like you’d want to hide this one. You’d want to be like, Oh, don’t look at that one. But that one we
⏹️ ▶️ John know doesn’t conform to our philosophy. Don’t show it and say, isn’t this beautiful? Isn’t this nice? No, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John not. It says, John. It’s bothering me more and more.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so I know everyone is talking about the icons in the home screen and are they going to change those? Oh, don’t worry. It’s just a beta.
⏹️ ▶️ John They’ll have plenty of time to refine them. They won’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco though. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, anyway, this is what I’m looking at it as my bellwether because this doesn’t require you redrawing a whole
⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of icons. This just requires someone to go, you know what? The month is a pretty darn important thing in month
⏹️ ▶️ John view. It does not deserve to be abbreviated. It should be bigger. It should be bolder. And that’s the kind of—I mean,
⏹️ ▶️ John just center it, put it on the same line, center it, let them spell it out. Plenty of room for German month names, which I assume are much
⏹️ ▶️ John longer than ours. Whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But faster. Yeah. And they all move over to the right when you come up behind them.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. It bothers me. And I expected after the keynote to see a million people slamming this, because
⏹️ ▶️ John it is the most obvious example of, like, do what I say, not as I do. And yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, you know, people have been pointing this out a lot and not just… Well, this is actually the first time I’ve seen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the calendar complaint, but the people, you know, people, us included, have pointed out lots of,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, lots of just design flaws in iOS 7 so far.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think it’s important to consider that, you know, similar to how Apple the company,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they always look out for, you know, people think, oh, they do everything, whatever is best for users,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that’s not quite true. They do what’s best for Apple first and then secondarily what’s best
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for users and and if those priorities are ever challenged what’s best for Apple always wins.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Similar to that I think we all think of Apple as this company has this really great design
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense and they do mostly but there’s always been this kind of competing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco interest at Apple of what looks cool and what looks
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool I think is more important overall than what’s a great design
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to them in many instances and especially in software. Hardware they can often
⏹️ ▶️ Marco find the right balance. In software they often don’t. And I think this is one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those examples a lot about iOS 7. For example, I think using the super thin font everywhere.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I find the extremely thin font extremely hard to read. And the fact
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that there is that adjust legibility setting to just make the font a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thicker. That alone says like, you know, they know this too and somebody’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco fighting about it internally. You know, there’s always things like this with Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco software. Almost everything they’ve removed from like the, you know, quote skeuomorphic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff from like desktop calendar and stuff like that. Like almost all these things were things that were put in there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they look cool and high enough up people, oftentimes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steve in the past, high enough thought people thought they looked cool enough to push them through even though
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people knew that it wasn’t as good of a design or it wasn’t as functional or it wasn’t as usable or it wasn’t as legible.
⏹️ ▶️ John In the case of Jun,
⏹️ ▶️ John cool thing that they are preserving, which many people pointed out and which I think is totally not a justification for it but is
⏹️ ▶️ John possibly an explanation, is that when you go from the month to the year view, like they want to do the transition,
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like you’re just zooming out, and then in the year view, the months are abbreviated. And I think there
⏹️ ▶️ John it kind of makes sense because you can do the abbreviation in a much larger font You can put three big letters you see it to the left there, you know, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know It would be harder to read September spelled out on the year view But you can make SCP
⏹️ ▶️ John really big for September And so they want the dynamic transition that Jun to go right into the little
⏹️ ▶️ John Jun on the year view in a transition and it’s like oh see it’s like it’s perfect just like how the title
⏹️ ▶️ John slides over with the back button to become the title of the previous page and all that stuff like it’s just perfect right and And
⏹️ ▶️ John someone was so married to that perfect transition that they could not bear a crossfade into J-U-N-E, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John You know what I mean? Like a crossfade from year view into month view, where the three-letter abbreviation crossfades
⏹️ ▶️ John into the full month name, is not the end of the world. But someone was like, no, we’re
⏹️ ▶️ John this is the transition. No crossfades. It’s got to be, it’s got to feel like it’s a real thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s the wrong call, because it’s better to sacrifice the purity of that transition
⏹️ ▶️ John to conform to your other supposed purity, which clarity of and deferment to the content and what is important
⏹️ ▶️ John and just show what’s important to the user.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. But it’s Oh, but what if something is almost as usable and looks really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool, they will always opt for that every time.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s just a bad call. It’s just a bad call one app. It’s not a big deal. But like, that’s my that’s my canary
⏹️ ▶️ John in the coal mine. I’m gonna be watching to see when that abbreviation gets bigger.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll be watching to see when the default font is thicker.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree. But to go back to the calendar, I do You think it was very cool, and John, you touched on this briefly,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the way the transitions worked. And I don’t have an iOS 7 device here, but my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey memory tells me that when you went from the day view to the month view, you kind of zoomed out and back towards
⏹️ ▶️ Casey your face. That’s a terrible description, but you kept zooming outwards. And like you said, John,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you went from the month view and then you zoomed out to the year view. And then the way the transition for the home screen is, when you hit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the home button from the year view, you would kind of zoom out again into springboard. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey just thought that was really well done and really cool. But before you said crossfade, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was thinking to myself, you know, that’s weird. Why didn’t they do a crossfade from month to year?
⏹️ ▶️ John Because it’s not a real Zoom’s don’t crossfade, right? You know, it’s like it’s not real. But
⏹️ ▶️ John the thing about all those things is like, I think they are good and they are really neat to see. But all the
⏹️ ▶️ John previous versions of iOS have pretty much demonstrated that the conceptual model
⏹️ ▶️ John of home screen application, like that one level of like you’re either in an app, you’re in a home screen, people
⏹️ ▶️ John get that even with the transitions that are not as beautiful and perfect as they are on ios 7 because
⏹️ ▶️ John like you said if you tap on it and ios 7 the calendar in particular because it’s icon looks like you had
⏹️ ▶️ John simply zoomed in on you know the day view and in a month calendar and it’s just all like oh i’m
⏹️ ▶️ John just pushing back pushing back zooming in zooming in and just one smooth continuous experience that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John great and all but it’s like it’s fixing something that wasn’t really a problem because everybody
⏹️ ▶️ John very quickly grocs screen with a bunch of icons, you’re in an app, you hit that button, you go back to the screen with a bunch
⏹️ ▶️ John of icons. Like everybody gets that. That’s a simple, it’s not super duper, even ignoring folders, which I think people
⏹️ ▶️ John still also kind of get. But just that model of like you’re either on Springboard or you’re in an app, and if you’re in an
⏹️ ▶️ John app and you wanna get to Springboard, you hit the button. You don’t need the transition, like the genie
⏹️ ▶️ John effect to say where the hell did my window go? I think that is still necessary because people click a button on their window
⏹️ ▶️ John and the window just disappeared, they will not notice that a little square appeared in the lower right. But I think everybody, even if it
⏹️ ▶️ John was zero transition, grocks the model eventually, and certainly now, of just
⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, I get it now. I’m in an app. I hit that button. I’m back on the screen with the icons. I get how those two things
⏹️ ▶️ John are arranged. And so this marriage to this particular transition is like, it’s too much. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John killing an ant with a sledgehammer. Like, we get it. We understand how you get to and from the home screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so I don’t say you shouldn’t do it. It’s good. It’s nice and everything. But do not sacrifice aspects of the application
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think it’s going to be a lot like, you know, when I made the magazine 1.0 and my goal was to have no setting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen. And then that actually turned out to cause a few other bad design decisions
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I was trying to reach that one goal and reality interfered.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I had to compromise in other ways. And then that turned out to be the wrong decision.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think there’s a lot of cases like that in iOS 7 where they’re trying to preserve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something about the appearance or the structure or their principles and they’re trying to say, well we need to do,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we need to make this choice because of this principle that you know we, that this is one of our goals so therefore
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know because this animation is going to be this certain way then it’ll look best to have Jun there instead of June
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so this is what we’re stuck with and or this is the right thing to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and eventually they’re gonna start refining that and cutting back on some of these things I think or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or finding new ways to satisfy both.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah. They’ve got principles that they laid out. And some of the principles sometimes come in conflict. And it’s the question of which
⏹️ ▶️ John one wins. And picking the right winner is just as important as picking the correct principles. Because we all agree with
⏹️ ▶️ John the principles. All the transitions should be smooth and obvious. And also, we agree with, oh, the content should be emphasized and not the Chrome.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you’re on board with the iOS 7 idea, we’re on board with both of those. And it’s like, OK, when they come in conflict,
⏹️ ▶️ John we maybe don’t agree with picking the transition one over the content being king.
⏹️ ▶️ John or deciding that their entire treatment of text also clashes with
⏹️ ▶️ John someone being able to look at this thing at a glance and all they see is the content. Like what they want to know is there and they’re not distracted
⏹️ ▶️ John by the interface. And if people are having trouble reading these spindly little fonts, then some other aspect
⏹️ ▶️ John of the philosophy has stomped on the one we think should be more important. Right, exactly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we really that surprised either that Apple, when creating this new whiz-bang thing,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey has favored the new whiz-bang thing over what is arguably right. In other words, I don’t think it’s surprising
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they’re choosing John over doing something that doesn’t really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey fit the whiz bang as well, but is really the right answer. And that’s putting June in.
⏹️ ▶️ John make sense? But they picked these tenants. Like they really hammered on deferment, like
⏹️ ▶️ John deferring to the user in the content and emphasizing the content over the Chrome. Like that’s them. No one’s putting that on them. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not burdened with that. They’ve chosen that as a tentpole of iOS 7. And
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s up to them to figure out like, like, if they if they give us all these, these philosophies
⏹️ ▶️ John and tenants of iOS seven, they have to figure out how to reconcile these in a
⏹️ ▶️ John pleasing way. And if they it seems to me that they’re picking the wrong ones, like the one that most people can be on board
⏹️ ▶️ John with, I think the one that most people are on board with is, okay, good. No more weird leather and felt
⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that’s not important. It’s distracting. We just want to see the information. Show me my calendar,
⏹️ ▶️ John show me what the month is, show me what today’s data is, show me if I’ve got it in the car. Like I just want the information. Don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John distract me with fancy looking buttons and stuff. I think that’s the one that we all agree is a
⏹️ ▶️ John good idea in iOS seven. And the other ones that they latched onto about their particular treatment of typography
⏹️ ▶️ John and how things are transition were like, those are good and everything. But like, we really, we really liked the one where you,
⏹️ ▶️ John where you emphasize the content and not the Chrome. And you know, their prioritization
⏹️ ▶️ John of those, this tenants, tenants that they chose seem to be different than everyone else’s at this point.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and this is, I mean, all design for all apps, every design is a whole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bunch of series of choices. And most of them are not easy choices. And, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because with those principles they have, almost none of them are, you can just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, all right, well, you know, how should this thing behave? Well, we’re gonna satisfy all three of those things perfectly and make everything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco great by just doing this one option here. Like every time you’re designing something developing something, you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco always having to compromise on those things. Good design is about figuring out the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right compromises. There’s always going to be lots of conflicting rules and principles
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and factors and everything like that. What makes a good designer a good designer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is having great judgment there and then also being able to look back when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve been wrong and say, you know what, that was the wrong choice. overall better to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it this other way.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Alright, is that all we got?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think we’re good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright, well thanks a lot to our two show sponsors. Audible, go to audiblepodcast.com
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP and FileTransporter, or just simply Transporter,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go to filetransporter.com slash ATP and thanks a lot guys.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him,
⏹️ ▶️ John Cause it was accidental, oh
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. And you can find
⏹️ ▶️ John the show notes at ATP.FM And if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John into Twitter, you can follow them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to. Accidental,
⏹️ ▶️ John tech broadcasts so long.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have any objections to it. If we have the blessing of the person in the chat room, who will never get credit on
⏹️ ▶️ John the show, we’ll just have to tell his grandchildren, they used my title once. Didn’t hear that on the show,
⏹️ ▶️ John Grandpa. Oh, trust me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do kind of like I feel like John Syracuse and now but I don’t think that really makes sense in the grand scheme of things
⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t know how I feel you don’t know what it feels like to be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not even that late we’ve had some fun reviews lately
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really I don’t even read them but I always forget that that’s a thing that I can go check
⏹️ ▶️ John not that many reviews maybe we should have We have every three months begging for people
⏹️ ▶️ John to review us. I remember that they existed recently, too. I usually check them pretty
⏹️ ▶️ John obsessively, but I had a long spell where I didn’t. I mean, WNBC had an interruption. I went back and there weren’t that many new ones. So
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe we have to go back to that section of the show where we beg everybody to leave iTunes reviews.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the problem is that they’re not in the theme song. There’s no call out in the theme song.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John We’re getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tons of Twitter followers. Our site’s doing great.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know. You don’t need to call it the theme song. But every once in a while you mention the review and people go,
⏹️ ▶️ John we have a lot of reviews. All our reviews are good. And most of them, the good thing about having a show with
⏹️ ▶️ John three people on it is that in most reviews, your chances of them saying something nice about you are good.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like the reviews always say something good about two out of three people.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You know what I mean? And someone gets thrown under
⏹️ ▶️ John the bus. That is true actually.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah. That’s usually,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that’s mostly true.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s mostly true. However, I cannot remember seeing a bad comment about John ever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if there’s a bad comment, I’d say it’s two thirds about how much of a Marco is and one third
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about how well ignorant and stupid
⏹️ ▶️ John My bad comments are great. My great comments, at least severe, but usually what it is, it’s like the show isn’t as good as hypercritical.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like, that’s what it comes down to for
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco my which is, which is not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is actually a compliment to you.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know. But like, that’s the bad thing that they say is that that my performance in this show is lesser
⏹️ ▶️ John and it doesn’t satisfy their need for whatever it is they need from you know what I mean like and that’s so yeah I’m getting
⏹️ ▶️ John off with the least bad reviews but what I’m saying is like most of them
⏹️ ▶️ John two out of three people they say something nice about.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah but uh some of the god I’m trying to find one or two of them that were interesting oh here you go
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco is so full of himself but John makes up for them all seriously a good listen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I see I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s I mean that’s pretty that’s pretty standard I would I mean, I feel like nobody really insults you Casey.
⏹️ ▶️ John You want to read some bad Casey ones
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just thought the only bad Casey ones were like Who’s this guy?
⏹️ ▶️ John Now they know who he is. They don’t like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So in the middle of a very long review I think Armit and Syracuse have feel that they need a moderator of sorts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to keep the show moving I agree, but they picked the wrong guy They picked a friend rather than someone with the requisite skill
⏹️ ▶️ Casey set Casey’s in over his head I would have been too, but I would have declined the offer
⏹️ ▶️ John First of all, that’s what you’re wrong. We didn’t none of us like Casey first of all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco suppose Suppose his entire premise is true Do you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody could like rein us in when we’re? Taking when we’re when John and I are both talking forever
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about something like it’s an impossible job
⏹️ ▶️ Casey job. I don’t know how to approach this diplomatically and delicately. And so I’m just going to say you two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are f***ing impossible sometimes. Actually, this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was legitimately good feedback and actually, to be fair, made me try to work on something that I do think is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an issue. Casey is diplomatic to the point of blandness, always tempering his point of view as if to not upset anyone ever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which continues, I miss hypercritical, but having John Syracuse on any podcast is better than none. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually think he is that that was a reasonable point.
⏹️ ▶️ John I did like it’s like the Dark Crystal though. You guys that before you guys time, you know, Dark Crystal. No,
⏹️ ▶️ John come on guys. Not Marco nothing what chat room. This is what I have to work with here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John didn’t think that I
⏹️ ▶️ John thought for I questioned whether I should preface that with like, oh, have you guys heard of that because I would be like insulting. It’s like
⏹️ ▶️ John have you guys heard of Star Trek like you’d be like, oh, come on. Like, of course, you’re a starter. Don’t be stupid, but nothing. All right, never mind.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The chat room is catching up and they all hate us now. So, although I will say to go back
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a step, Ben Rice said, I still think Casey List is Marco’s imaginary friend.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, I’ll try my dark crystal thing anyway. So like, what we have here with
⏹️ ▶️ John the three of us together is all the ingredients that are needed, they’re just not evenly distributed. So it’s like some of
⏹️ ▶️ John Marco’s self confidence needs to go into Casey, and
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco some of Casey’s ability
⏹️ ▶️ John to shut up needs to go into me and Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco See what I’m saying? So we combine
⏹️ ▶️ John them, then we would have the ultimate podcast host who would then be very lonely.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, that’s so true. Oh, man. And Dented Meat is right. We all
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought he was the imaginary friend around here, and then we met him.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I met him for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 10 seconds, but we did meet him.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, by the way, Casey’s real and he’s spectacular. You get that reference!
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I do get that reference.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, you get that reference! Yes, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do get that reference. Oh my god, I’m losing my crap over here. Can that please be the show intro? Oh god, it’s awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have so many great show intros, I’m gonna have to save them up.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We might have to do an after the evening or whatever, or subsequent to the evening, or whatever we’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey calling it. Oh, this is good. Or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Before midnight, yeah, exactly. Oh goodness, I should find some of these bad reviews
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and pull up Gruber and read them all.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean like the people aren’t like really mean like you know what I mean like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no for the most part there were a couple That actually stung, but I mean genuinely there
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John were they only say the only
⏹️ ▶️ John thing if there’s a kernel of truth If they you know what I mean, but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey people aren’t being no, but people aren’t
⏹️ ▶️ John being like Go read go read some reviews to other podcasts. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s the problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like nobody hates us enough to read a really funny bad review
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey They only hate us enough
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to write like kind of mean reviews You know, I
⏹️ ▶️ John think because all listeners are all discerning and intelligent and attractive people Of course, even though even the ones who
⏹️ ▶️ John hate us are articulate enough to leave a reasonable review
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think the only one that stung Well, I shouldn’t say it stung the one that I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey read about me hedging too much. That was that was absolutely valid
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and It kind of stung but more was like dude. I really do need to work on that The one about me being
⏹️ ▶️ Casey over my head kind of hurt It’s okay though. I’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be all right. But the premise there is just not
⏹️ ▶️ John valid. It doesn’t make any sense. I don’t think people understand that you’re a programmer for a living. They think you’re just some guy off the street.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John don’t know. You’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a.NET programmer most of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John time, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Still, come on. I mean, you know what I mean.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey He writes Perl. How are you shitting on me? He writes
⏹️ ▶️ John Perl. Come on. But people think I’m like an iOS or OS X developer, and I’m not.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, actually, all kidding aside, forgive me for starting Mutual Admiration Society, But you know it about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey objective C and Cocoa and Cocoa Touch for someone who never does any of this.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s that’s the thing that’s also thing that non programmers don’t understand is that at a certain point? We have a certain level of
⏹️ ▶️ John experience in programming the mysticism of different APIs and languages falls
⏹️ ▶️ John away and you just kind of realize that it’s all more or less the same stuff and Like that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole thing of you know, employers are like this to like Once you’ve been a professional programmer for, I don’t know,
⏹️ ▶️ John five years, certainly for ten, you can,
⏹️ ▶️ John assuming you’ve been keeping your skills up or whatever, you can learn any language. Because it’s like, okay, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John what’s the equivalent of whatever in this language? Conceptually, you understand everything you need to know,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s just a matter of syntax. The same thing with APIs. Once you’ve used an API that has all these concepts in terms
⏹️ ▶️ John of callbacks callbacks and notifications and event loops
⏹️ ▶️ John and background processes, like all the conceptually, once you understand the concepts,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like, oh, but you’re an iOS programmer, you’ll never understand OS 10 or you’ll never understand.NET. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s all the same stuff. Like there’s very rarely some new revolutionary idea that you can’t even grok and it’s just a matter
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah. And going back to our design discussion, I think it’s a similar thing with like, you most programming
⏹️ ▶️ Marco languages don’t come out and do radically, totally unheard of ideas.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s just, they’re all trade-offs. And it’s like, all right, well, Wix had a trade-off, what are your priorities for what you’re doing? And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco therefore, Wix had a trade-off, it’s the best for you to use for this. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco why it’s so hard to say that one language is quote, better than another, because usually they just have made different trade-offs.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And I think there is a thing where if someone just uses one language forever, and that language doesn’t have
⏹️ ▶️ John anonymous functions or closures occurring or pick your whatever feature, then you won’t have seen that
⏹️ ▶️ John concept. And if some other language is heavily based on it, you will not grok it, and you will have to first grok
⏹️ ▶️ John that concept. But that’s why I’m saying if you’ve been in the industry for a long time and used lots of different languages, eventually
⏹️ ▶️ John you didn’t spend your entire time in C. Eventually you run across a language that has these features. Or even if you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John just in a language that never had lexical scope, and you don’t understand how that works or why it might be useful.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I feel like just especially in today’s development, like the web where you encounter like seven languages running one application,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get all the concepts or whatever. So then, but I think for non-programmers listening, they
⏹️ ▶️ John will assign you an expertise in a particular realm and decide that you can’t possibly have
⏹️ ▶️ John any intelligent comment on the other realm. So because Casey’s a.NET programmer, like what could he possibly have intelligent to say about
⏹️ ▶️ John OS X? Well, it’s like, you know, it’s not as if, oh, that’s totally
⏹️ ▶️ John foreign. I can’t possibly understand what’s going on there. It’s a GUI API is a GUI API, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, talking to a database from programming language is talking to a database. You know, have you used an ORM before? Well, we have ORMs
⏹️ ▶️ John here too. You know, it’s just all the same stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco As long as we can all agree that PHP does suck.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, well, we do. Everyone agrees. No one disagrees.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There is no better or worse language, except PHP, which is worse.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are you feeling okay?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, this is a- Look, I still use it, because again, it’s the trade-offs,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? There’s joke languages that are worse, right? There’s like brain
⏹️ ▶️ John damage. That’s worse. There is levels to go down farther, but yeah, at a certain
⏹️ ▶️ John point. Arguably, PHP is kind of a joke language.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually here’s an interesting question, which maybe we should save for a show. Which is a worse language, PHP or JavaScript?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, PHP. No contest.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Come on. Really? I think that might require some thought.
⏹️ ▶️ John JavaScript just has so much fewer moving parts. So even if you think all those parts in JavaScript are worse than the parts
⏹️ ▶️ John in PHP, PHP has so many freaking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco parts. Well JavaScript has browsers you know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t know I think the language
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re just talking about the language the language no no we’re talking about if you’re talking about moving parts we’re talking about in practice here
⏹️ ▶️ John no I mean like the language all the way like think of the size of the API you know this PHP
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco but think about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think about how much it how much in JavaScript is not accessible from the API you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John know I don’t know I think it’s a simple
⏹️ ▶️ John language that’s crappy but you know at least it’s small.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean PHP might be worse than JavaScript, but I would really have to like, you know, make like a pros and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cons list or something. Like really think about it and really weigh it because I really do think they’re not…
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think their badness is closer than you might assume.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, it’s the same thing with the PHP discussion we had way back when. It’s like I’m talking about just the language in the abstract,
⏹️ ▶️ John like in terms of here are the keywords, here’s the syntax, here’s the concepts it embodies, and not any of the practical concerns. Once you throw the
⏹️ ▶️ John practical concerns into it, other things come in. because like JavaScript as a language is better
⏹️ ▶️ John than PHP as a language, but you may say developing a real application in JavaScript is worse because of variances
⏹️ ▶️ John in browsers, whereas PHP is always the same or whatever. Then you can make different arguments. But when I’m talking about the language, I’m always talking about
⏹️ ▶️ John the language in the abstract. Like you’re a language designer, you want to make a thing that executes. There are no real
⏹️ ▶️ John world concerns at all. You’re just designing a language the same way you would design a written language. Here’s the syntax, here are the
⏹️ ▶️ John nouns and verbs, and here’s how it’s structured, and the whole nine yards.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to piddle with some of the server side.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John around with, screw
⏹️ ▶️ John with, whatever. Alright, you can paddle too if you want, whatever. You’re
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so hyper-critical.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole other show. It
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really is. You know what, we should just bank this for the next time one of us isn’t around. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to screw around with like Node.js or one of the new hotness web
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John frameworks. Node.js is
⏹️ ▶️ John so two years ago, come on.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whatever. I live in the dot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco net world. Isn’t the Windows
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Azure thing, isn’t that Node on the server? I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey think it is, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe that’s right. Yeah, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think so. It’s certainly interesting. Whatever I see about Node.js,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it looks like it’s probably really interesting right now, but when you’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco programming something and you don’t want to spend a ton of time on the nuts and bolts of it, you don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really want interesting. You want something that was interesting five years ago. So I think Node.js,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever project I start five years from now, I’ll probably use it then.
⏹️ ▶️ John ideal project with something like Node if you want to experiment. It would be something like like Manton Rees’s like tweet marker type
⏹️ ▶️ John service where conceptually again there’s not a lot of moving parts like you’re gonna be storing an offset or position
⏹️ ▶️ John for people in some sort of server back end and what what your server software has to do is like basically
⏹️ ▶️ John accept a request maybe with some minor authentication and then like get and store a number for somebody.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right, it’s not gonna hit a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem where like oh crap like the icons library sucks for
⏹️ ▶️ John Then you can write that in Node and be like my first node application, like it’s one step above writing an echo server, but you
⏹️ ▶️ John get all the advantages that are supposedly a node, you see, okay, does this scale really awesomely can is this super easy to deploy,
⏹️ ▶️ John and I can run it everywhere. And like and you can, you can really, you know, torture tested and say, like, Alright, I could have written
⏹️ ▶️ John this in anything, because the amount of code, it’s like three pages of code for for the server part of it, not the storage part,
⏹️ ▶️ John not the all the other stuff, you know, just for the web app part. And that’s a perfect opportunity to try out something new,
⏹️ ▶️ John because you’re like, if it doesn’t work, I’ll just rewrite it. And you know, pick your favorite language, and it won’t be a big deal. But
⏹️ ▶️ John if If it does work, maybe I’ll get all these advantages that everyone says about Node.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I think we should do is we should write websites in just straight
⏹️ ▶️ Casey C, because that sounds
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John bright. I did that. Been there, done that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know. I’m trying to troll
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s nothing better than string manipulation in C.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh yeah. Really
⏹️ ▶️ John secure too. No buffer overloads in my query parsing code, no sir.