Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

19: Designed by App in Cal

The WWDC intro video, Apple’s California pride, whether developers should require iOS 7, the new Calendar UI, and cool vs. usable designs.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco This episode is brought to you by audible the leading provider of downloadable audiobooks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go to audible podcast calm slash ATP to learn more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you’re gonna have like 16 hours in your car,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, yeah, you’re gonna be gonna burn out the butt massager

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Should we tell the public when we were actually recording this so that if anything big happens next week that they know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we probably should. So today it is June 21, which is a Friday.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco longest day of the year. Is it really? By some times, yes. It is the solstice.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Ah, right, right, right. So we are recording today because Jon is traveling next week, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we didn’t want to leave our beloved fans slash listeners without an episode next

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week, so we’re recording very early and will release a week from today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today. So when Apple buys Nintendo on Monday we won’t know about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well I thought the plan was you were going to buy Nintendo on Monday then sell it to Apple and then they would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just shut it down and eat it alive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Is that not a plan?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not a bad idea I mean that would give us more to talk about at least but then John wouldn’t be able to talk about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would just call you and just talk alone without John.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my god that would make him so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco angry. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey funny.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess somebody bought Nintendo huh? Anything to say about that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nope not really.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Not Not really, okay. I guess we’ll move on. Let’s talk about the Mac Pro some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more. John, what would you do? I mean, honestly. You’d be so upset.

⏹️ ▶️ John I would think I would actually write a blog post about that. That’s how momentous that would

⏹️ ▶️ John be.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You’d

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be so angry it would drive you to write a blog post.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’d be so motivated. Yeah, there’s so many things I want to write about, but it’s like, no, I don’t have time. Gotta go

⏹️ ▶️ John back to fretting about my review.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s true. How’s that going?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m fretting about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco least it’s not July.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, no, that’s why I noted I didn’t say I’m writing. I’m writing about it

⏹️ ▶️ John as a full-time activity. I’m still gathering resources and

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to come up with an outline and thinking about, oh god, look at all the stuff I have to write.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then also thinking maybe it’ll be really short this year. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, you gotta figure, they’re changing less and less in each release as the release time has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gotten shorter, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Yeah, more or less, but like, I don’t know. I’ll have to see. I think it will be shorter. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s been the trend because they have, like you said, they’ve been doing less, but you never know when I’m going to go off on some weird tangent.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, maybe knowing you, you’re probably not going to make the review shorter. It’ll just give you more space

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and time to expand on things that you would have otherwise not gotten, not a time to get to. Well, like the 10.6

⏹️ ▶️ John review, I thought that was going to be super short because like Apple’s coming out up front, zero new features, like, oh, this is going

⏹️ ▶️ John be a short review. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it was shorter,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it wasn’t as short as I thought it was going to

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco be. It wasn’t like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, a few thousand words less. It wasn’t like a whole lot shorter.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And this one I think will be shorter still, but we’ll see. I don’t know. It’s quantity is not the thing. I just, quality.

⏹️ ▶️ John I want it to be interesting and good. And so I’m going to concentrate on that, assuming I ever finish fretting

⏹️ ▶️ John and start writing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. So speaking of shorter things, this might be a short episode because we have a laundry list of miscellaneous

⏹️ ▶️ Casey topics, but I don’t know how much we’ll actually get to.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now that I’ve stated it’s a shorter episode, we’re going to go for two hours. So everyone buckle up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is anytime John and Dan would say, Oh, this is going to be a short one of hypercritical.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would always immediately take out my iPhone from, you know, walking the dog and just look at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the timestamp and just see how much and it’s always like, you know, 110 minutes remaining or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John We

⏹️ ▶️ John went through this. So I my listeners did a good job and did like statistical regression analysis

⏹️ ▶️ John to see that me saying it was going to be a shorter show did not in fact make the show

⏹️ ▶️ John longer and actually made it slightly shorter. And I don’t know enough about statistics to know whether like

⏹️ ▶️ John the statisticians argued amongst themselves whether it was significant or not, but there was no clear trend

⏹️ ▶️ John of the opposite just seems that way. It’s like, you know, it seems like it because it’s the opposite of what

⏹️ ▶️ John you would expect and it stands out in your memory, but in reality, they were actually not

⏹️ ▶️ John way longer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love that both your audience and you know that. That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John somebody actually went, that’s awesome. Somebody went and figured that out.

⏹️ ▶️ John Several people, several people, yes. Someone put the link in the show notes about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s fantastic. All right, so one of the things I wanted to ask you guys what you thought about, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this may or may not take very long, but there’s been a couple, or there were a couple of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey new Apple videos that were shown on the keynote Monday, or I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they were both keynote Monday. And the first one was the one that was at the very beginning

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the keynote itself. And I don’t know if it has a title, it probably does, and I’m not aware

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of, but it was a fairly abstract, black and white

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kind of almost essay about what Apple does in order to design products.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And to my recollection, I don’t remember them ever having started with a video. And I think we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talked about this briefly one or two episodes ago, but they actually started with with a video this year and I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was a very interesting video that basically said, hey listen, the way I interpreted it was, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, this is how we do our thing and if you don’t like it, tough nuts. And I was curious what you two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had to say about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John They used to start with, you know, the Mac PC ads. Remember when they started a couple

⏹️ ▶️ John keynotes with those?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Didn’t they start last year’s keynote with the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John garage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco band thing? No, no, no, the guy walking in the woods who was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John blind and using an iPhone. That wasn’t the start.

⏹️ ▶️ John Start means like lights dim everyone you know gets ready to hear something instead of a person walking

⏹️ ▶️ John out on stage They just play a video, and I think the only other times they’ve done that are when they were showing ads

⏹️ ▶️ John like you know the the all-back PC ads with Justin Long and Hodgman

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well even you can kind of argue that they’re all heads

⏹️ ▶️ John But but like you know television ads that we’re gonna run television They would play that or custom ones like where

⏹️ ▶️ John this was not gonna actually run in television But those characters come out, but the difference about this one is it wasn’t wasn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ John it wasn’t fun. It wasn’t supposed to be like funny. And it wasn’t an advertisement

⏹️ ▶️ John using known properties or showing a product or something. It was more like a

⏹️ ▶️ John mission statement, kind of a statement of philosophy or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I thought, as I said, I think on the first in the podcast, we did right after the keynote,

⏹️ ▶️ John that that was like, okay, this is gonna be something big. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John when a video begins with, in the course of human events, like, you know, like, they’re going to, oh my god,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is opening an Apple store on the moon and they’re, you know, whatever. Like, it’s going to be

⏹️ ▶️ John something momentous or significant for the company or maybe they were buying Nintendo, like, you know what I mean? Like, something at

⏹️ ▶️ John that level. And what followed in the keynote did not live up to that lofty goal. And so then, in hindsight,

⏹️ ▶️ John the video, which is beautifully produced and very interesting and contains a lot of, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John accurate content about how Apple sees itself and how we see Apple comes off as pretentious because

⏹️ ▶️ John what they released was great and awesome, but

⏹️ ▶️ John that video should have been saved for when they do something more momentous.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you did or did not like it all

⏹️ ▶️ John the time? I love the video. I thought it was beautiful. It was nicely done. Like, you understand what it’s saying, but I

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like it was out of balance. It’s like you can’t start with that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone’s like, oh my God, what is it gonna be? And what it is, is great, but not like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I don’t know, I mean, maybe, when could Apple have gotten away with that? They can get away with it at the original Mac intro

⏹️ ▶️ John and probably the iPhone intro. That’s about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You really think it was overblown? I didn’t think it was overblown at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John all.

⏹️ ▶️ John Slightly, it was just slightly overblown. Not ridiculously overblown, but slightly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know, I wouldn’t say that either. And by the way, I should point out, The chat room is saying that last year,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Siri kind of comedy stand-up video,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the intro last year,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it? Yeah, because they did like a little GarageBand bit, like, well, it was like a rim shot,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco drum roll. Yeah, it was like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Siri’s comedy act. 🎵

⏹️ ▶️ John Thanks for that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I believe that was the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco intro, so I think they’re right. Anyway, I don’t think this year’s intro video was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco overblown or overstating the case at all. I think… I mean, looking at the keynote,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As soon as, I mean, right afterwards we were all excited and, you know, as you said, we all thought it was pretty great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, you know, with some time for it to sink in and get a little bit less shiny looking back on it, I still think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was awesome. I still think it was a really, really great keynote. It was one of the best ones we’ve had for years. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco agree. And there was a lot. Not only was the energy really great,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the showmanship was really great with the exception of that weird car demo, but besides that, everything was great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then what they showed us was also pretty great. You had this revolutionary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco change in iOS, a nice update to OS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco X with mediocre scale improvements, but a nice update.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the big thing was iOS, and then this surprise Mac Pro, which to most people doesn’t matter, but to a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco few people, including the three of us, it’s really interesting and extremely surprising.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Plus, you know, better MacBook Air. I think it was a really good keynote.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but if you’re going to explain your philosophy, the products

⏹️ ▶️ John they introduced were not out of character for the company or shocking or going to knock

⏹️ ▶️ John the industry on its ear or anything like that. And so that’s why it’s out of balance a little bit. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iOS 7 might.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John think it would be better if that video was just on their website, it would be fine. But

⏹️ ▶️ John using it as a lead in to introduce a bunch of products that more or less everybody expected and

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like that aren’t that aren’t like the original Mac or the iPhone, where it’s just like

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody saw that coming. And it was just out of left field and it far exceeds expectations. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s crazily out of balance. It’s just a little bit out of balance. And I do think the keynote was great. I think all the announcements

⏹️ ▶️ John was great. I think it was very impressive again, except for the car thing. But you know, it’s tough

⏹️ ▶️ John to pull that off. Because you want all those things they said you want to say those things and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John difficult to say them without sounding a little bit full of yourself because you’re telling them why

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re great and You have to do it in a way that isn’t insulting and it’s very difficult to pull that off And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John the only way you can like think different is kind of similar where think different kind of pulled it off because there Was no attachment

⏹️ ▶️ John it wasn’t lead into any sort of products Just like pure like this is the philosophy of the company and that didn’t sound pretentious that

⏹️ ▶️ John sounded Foolhardy perhaps because like you almost went bankrupt. You’ve got nothing What the hell

⏹️ ▶️ John do you think you’re going to make? You know, a teal computer, so what, right? And in hindsight, it looks good, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But here, I’m saying just in the context of using that as the lead in, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John put anything in there that they needed that video. You could have, you know, like the Johnny Ive videos

⏹️ ▶️ John where he tells you about their philosophy are more product focused and would match up better with

⏹️ ▶️ John a bunch of product announcements, versus like the philosophical thing with something revolutionary

⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, if they’re going to enter some new business or something, maybe I can see that. But anyway, I like the video. I watch

⏹️ ▶️ John it again. Every time I watch it, I’m impressed by whoever made this video. It did an awesome job. It’s very clever, and nice, and

⏹️ ▶️ John tasteful. And I do like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Well, wouldn’t you also, I mean, the video also sets the stage for iOS 7,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specifically. Like, it’s specifically about clearing away everything, starting over again, taking away

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s unnecessary.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they had their own iOS 7 intro video, which was also very good, but so much more product-focused. And it kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of hit some of the same points.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, I mean, I think that’s why it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was important. This was like laying the foundation for the iOS 7 video later on, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for us to accept that the iOS 7 design decisions were correct

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and inevitable.

⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s what I think that video was a lead in for. I think it was a lead in for the Tim Cook era, where this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the first big party for Tim Cook’s newly rearranged Apple and what they can do.

⏹️ ▶️ John It wasn’t stated as such, but in hindsight, it looks like if you had to say, what

⏹️ ▶️ John was that video about? Because it wasn’t about a new Mac Pro. And I think it was kind of about iOS 7,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the iOS 7 video was more about that. It was more about… It’s like Tim Cook’s

⏹️ ▶️ John thing different. Not really, but like he’s saying, here we are, this is the new Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John the forestall-less Apple, I guess, the new Tim Cook Apple with something new showing

⏹️ ▶️ John that, you know, we really can move on from all the things that Steve Jobs created just to do something great

⏹️ ▶️ John in his absence, something that he didn’t foresee and didn’t have a hand in. In hindsight, I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what that video will match up best with.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey See, what I think, I think what the video did for me was, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, Apple hadn’t said anything since what October, November, something like that. What was it? The iPad mini release?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that was the last Apple event.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, so this was, to me, it kind of set the stage for, here’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple, I know we haven’t said anything for almost a year now or eight months, whatever the number was, here’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Let’s just remind everyone this is how we roll, and this is what we do, and we’re going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to keep that mindset while we show you all this cool crap with the exception of the weird car demo.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I think it was a really nice way to set the stage. Was it overblown? I mean, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think it was, but I can see your point, John. But I think it was all about setting the stage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for, you know, this is Apple. This is, we are Apple. This is what we care about. And if you don’t like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shove off. But this is how the next two hours are going to be. I don’t know. That’s what I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought. OK, so what about, did you guys watch the video that they did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not show during the keynote, which is called making it or I don’t know if it’s called making a difference one app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at a time. But it was something like that. It was like an eight minute video or something along

⏹️ ▶️ Casey those lines.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I haven’t even watched

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s interminable.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s long. It’s 10 minutes long, but it seems long.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey TLDW.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it is, I watched the whole thing. It is beautifully produced, it is nice, it’s heartwarming,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it really depends on your goodwill towards Apple to accept the connection

⏹️ ▶️ John between Apple and all the good things that they’re showing happening in there. They are good things, but are they necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ John related to Apple? Technology helps people in all sorts of ways, and all sorts of companies are behind that technology,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s good that Apple’s technology helps people in that way, but I don’t think I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a distinguishing characteristic that makes Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John stand out. Unlike the design video, which shows, you know, what they put in that design

⏹️ ▶️ John video are the ways that Apple is different than most other companies. Whereas I think any

⏹️ ▶️ John company that makes a technology product that can be used to help people could have made a video like the one that Apple made there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Although at least it shows that Apple cares that this is how their products are. This is what they’re thinking of when

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re making their products. want to see this type of outcome. But it’s easy to be cynical about it. And you know, like Monsanto could

⏹️ ▶️ John have made the same ad. It would have been like, damn them. This is not really what Monsanto is like. And with Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, that’s kind of what Apple’s like. But on the other hand, what technology company? Microsoft could have made the same video.

⏹️ ▶️ John Their products are helping people in similar ways, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I really liked it. Part of the reason I liked it was because it featured Charlottesville, Virginia, which is just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an hour west of here, and I used to live there. But beyond that, I thought it was really touching and heartwarming.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the blind hiker guy from last year’s keynote. I just thought it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well done. And you’re right that anyone could have made a video like this. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I love that Apple cares enough to not only make a video that’s like one or two minutes, but they made like an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey eight or nine minute video all about why and how their devices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey literally improve people’s lives. And I just think it’s cool that they even pay lip service to that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey being a priority, whether or not it is a priority, although I would argue it is given all their accessibility

⏹️ ▶️ Casey priority work and things of that nature. I don’t know, Marco, what did you think? Well, you didn’t see the video,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so never mind.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I don’t care.

⏹️ ▶️ John It would have been, I mean, like, the reason the Hiker thing worked for me, I think, is because Tim was there doing the intro

⏹️ ▶️ John and afterwards talking about it to say, to say, this is not just a heartwarming video. Let me tell you personally,

⏹️ ▶️ John from my heart, in a convincing way, that this is what makes me get out of bed in the morning.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is what I’m trying to do with the company, and he’s the CEO. That makes that one land more, whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John having this video out there as a corporate statement, it’s nice and all.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s fine, but especially at 10 minutes long, if you’re going to use it as

⏹️ ▶️ John something to represent your company, no one’s going to watch that 10 minute long video. Very few people are, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Except you and me, apparently.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Certainly not Marko. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco haven’t even

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John watched

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have so many Apple videos that I want to watch. I still have like eight or nine sessions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I wanted to watch that I didn’t get a chance to see. Yeah, so

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s another thing I’m doing instead of writing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I felt the entire plane ride home I was watching sessions and even like the day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after I got home watching sessions and see now remember we were talking before about how like you know once you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once you leave that week like it’s no longer your job to be in those sessions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so you just never get around to doing it. Well I’m seeing that now like I have like these these eight more sessions that I really want to watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John what is your time to do

⏹️ ▶️ John it? I’m assigning It’s your job, since you don’t have any other job.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, you’re unemployed. What else do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you have to do?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey right, exactly. He’s supposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to be making an app or something. But I’m saying, no, that job starts in a few weeks. This week, your job is to watch WBC videos.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then give John the Cliff Notes for anything related to this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John topic.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I got to watch myself.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know you do. All right, there were a couple other videos I wanted to briefly touch on. The first was,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t remember if they showed this during the keynote. I believe they did at the very end, but the new commercial about design by Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in California. And this kind of ties in with the one we mentioned at the beginning, and that was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the beginning of the keynote, where they said at the end of the video, something along the lines of, it’s only then we sign

⏹️ ▶️ Casey our work and then they flash up Designed by Apple in California. In this other video, they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show people just using their products in everyday things and everyday scenarios. And again, at the end, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Designed by Apple in California. So one of the things you can easily see between these two videos that literally bookended

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the keynote and then OS 10 Mavericks, which was in the middle, by the way, I still hate that name. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of this is go California, yay California, yay California. And why

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or when did they get so excited about California? Not to say that’s bad before we get a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey zillion angry Californians, but when did this become a thing?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s been on the back of their products since Jobs came back, practically.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I mean, it seems like there’s a new emphasis behind it, and I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco know what brought that on. Well, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco less about California and more about made in the USA at this point, I think. I mean, you know, the California

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pride has always been there. And you’re right, that was a lot of jobs right there. But I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think at this point, this is them saying, kind of responding to all the Chinese worker

⏹️ ▶️ Marco controversy kind of things from the last year, saying, you know what? No, we can bring something to the US.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And now, this is something they can say, like, especially with the Mac Pro, now they can really say, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, look, this is like a whole US computer right here. As long as you don’t check where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Flash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John RAM was made. Yeah, I mean, because what else? Well, who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco knows?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, the A6 CPUs, I think, aren’t they manufactured in Texas?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They are, but what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John about all the RAM? The Flash and the DRAM?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John gets

⏹️ ▶️ John back to what Casey just said about, like, he liked the video because it showed a part where he lived. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John this, you know, this silly notion that we have of, like, attachment to place and sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of, you know, extension into, like, jingoism and nationalism of pride in countries,

⏹️ ▶️ John really pretty much nonsensical if you think about it for more than 10 minutes, but it is definitely a

⏹️ ▶️ John real thing, so I don’t blame them for playing into it. But yeah, like

⏹️ ▶️ John in the cynical view, is what Marcus said, you can view it as damage control for the Chinese factory things or whatever. Pride

⏹️ ▶️ John in California is no more or less ridiculous than pride in the United States is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John no more or less ridiculous than pride is made on earth. Like it doesn’t really matter where it’s made

⏹️ ▶️ John or where you’re from or anything like that. Is it a good product? Is it not a good product? as well, you’re not treating workers well,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, our country needs to have a good economy so keep the business in our company, not in someone else’s

⏹️ ▶️ John country because of imaginary lines or oceans or whatever. Like that,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I find that that’s why designing California bothers me a little bit because it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John who cares? What is it about Cal? What is it about the borders of California that exists, you know, for historical

⏹️ ▶️ John reasons that have nothing to do with anything that makes you proud that the people who made it were in California

⏹️ ▶️ John when they made it and perhaps live somewhere else now and perhaps were born somewhere else.

⏹️ ▶️ John As dentist meat said in the chat room, I’m so ready to join Starfleet apparently. But yeah, no, it’s like the,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what they’re, I don’t think the, I think the by California takes away

⏹️ ▶️ John from their message because what they are is they’re proud that we made this thing. And this thing is good in these ways. And they show the people using

⏹️ ▶️ John the products and having fun with them. And, you know, it’s also beautifully shot and all the people are beautiful and, you you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John like that part of it is a legitimate message like, hey, we made something nice. And our products

⏹️ ▶️ John enhance people’s lives. So thumbs up, right, guys. That’s advertising. It’s fine. Like you

⏹️ ▶️ John can see it on Mad Men. But the geographic part of it, I find

⏹️ ▶️ John a little off putting, but probably other people don’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, California is itself also part of the advertising. And you know, it’s not like they chose

⏹️ ▶️ Marco California just for this. But I think they’re using it to their advantage now that they’re now that they’re there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco California has a really great reputation among, I think, most people, most Americans especially,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of being this really nice place and kind of this cool place and this kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of liberal hippie but cool great weather place. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that’s like where things happen. Except

⏹️ ▶️ John for LA, right? Are we leaving out LA?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John cares about LA?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, like, there aren’t that many states in the US with that great of a reputation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Where like you can say, oh yeah, we’re from Minnesota and you’re going to have like everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the whole country saying, wow, Minnesota? They made that in Minnesota? That’s so cool. This isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a major effect or a major part of their marketing or branding efforts, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is a small contributor. And especially in the wake of both the Chinese worker thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the wake of Samsung becoming this major competitor, this is them saying,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t support that Korean company.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John We’re an American company in California. Don’t you

⏹️ ▶️ John find that slightly off-putting? That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco where

⏹️ ▶️ John it starts to get into, you know, anyway, I think it’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, I find it off-putting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that all of our politicians have to end everything with, God bless America. Yeah, no, that’s older.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John But you can see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why they do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Send email to Marco, please.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, yeah, the California thing, to my memory, came in around the time Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John came back again, and has stayed throughout. And it’s shorthand for, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John proud that we did this. And they need some way to identify themselves. And they are a California

⏹️ ▶️ John company founded in California. And so that’s what they’ve chosen, because their employees come and go. Their executives

⏹️ ▶️ John come and go. A lot of the people who work there weren’t born in California. They don’t have much to hang their hat on. But

⏹️ ▶️ John insofar as a corporation can be seen as an entity with a place, Apple’s place

⏹️ ▶️ John is California. So that’s their shorthand for trying to refer back to themselves and their

⏹️ ▶️ John tribe as a collective entity.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and to that end, I mean, when you think of California and you think of business, other than Hollywood and perhaps

⏹️ ▶️ Casey music, what’s your first thought? I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple. Avocados? I don’t know. Fine. All right, never mind then. No, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, when I think of a big—well, maybe not a big business, but when I think of business in California, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think Hollywood, I think music, and I think Apple. And I would think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that most Americans would agree. I don’t know. All right. There’s one other video I wanted to ask you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about and then perhaps Marco you can tell me about something That’s cool. But um, the other one I wanted to ask about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is today Which again is quite a long time before most of you will actually hear this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey episode The trailer for the Ashton Kutcher Steve Jobs movie came out. Did either of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you see this two-minute trailer,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John please? Marco time

⏹️ ▶️ John I did I did watch it didn’t I thought that maybe this is the that other Steve Jobs movie You know the

⏹️ ▶️ John good one because didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey this show

⏹️ ▶️ John in a film festival and everyone panned it like a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey yes a year ago

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, like Panzerino, I think said mixed about it. He said it was in it if memory serves He said it was entertaining

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but not great

⏹️ ▶️ John I never had high hopes for this movie and the trailer did not change my mind about that See, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think I’ll even bother watching

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. So our friend Brad that well John you’ve never met him But Marco and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and David Smith went and spent some time with Brad at the Sunday before WWDC he had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey commented on Twitter that the musical selections were just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey terrible. The musical editing was terrible, and I think he’s right. But I actually didn’t think the trailer was bad. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is clearly taking a lot of creative license with the actual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reality of what happened. But I don’t know, I thought it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John would be enjoyable.

⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s the question, Casey. If you were tasked with making a parody of this trailer, how would you do it?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would have made the same trailer.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I’m saying. It is not like, it is so overblown. And like, ignore the

⏹️ ▶️ John fact that it’s just like the people who made the movie just I mean clearly the people who made this movie do

⏹️ ▶️ John not and cannot understand what it was that was important about all these things that Apple did, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John fine I guess because if other people don’t care like just treat it as fiction, but even within the realm of fiction it’s so

⏹️ ▶️ John overblown where everyone is just screaming and so emotional and dramatic about things

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re saying nonsense the whole time right because again people they don’t understand what was important about the Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John what was important about the Mac, what was important about the iPhone, they They have no idea, like no earthly clue. It’s kind of like the

⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Jobs biography, but even more extreme, the Isaacson biography, where if you don’t understand

⏹️ ▶️ John what was important about the original Mac, there’s no way you can make a movie about it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but that’s not their—their goal is not to be accurate. Their goal is to be, like, good to watch, to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John an interesting movie. Well, I mean, it’s like, based on a true story,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not like, you know, a retail—because I think it’s not so much—that’s not the case in a lot of other movies. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of political dramas or things about important parts in American history, Like the

⏹️ ▶️ John Lincoln movie, which I didn’t see. I’m assuming that that movie understood that what was important about the Civil War

⏹️ ▶️ John was like keeping the Union together and slavery. The major issues were there and understood.

⏹️ ▶️ John But because it’s about technology, and it’s not as important as those things that everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John can relate to, they don’t know what was important about the Apple II. They’re not quite sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they know it was important, and they know people got rich from it, and they know it has something to do with nerds and electricity, and

⏹️ ▶️ John so let’s just go, you know what I mean? Whereas no one’s like, something about slavery, but was slavery, I think slavery

⏹️ ▶️ John was bad. Like, I don’t remember. Something about that. But anyway, that’s not really important. We just want to show the dramatic scenes of

⏹️ ▶️ John Abraham Lincoln. No, you have to understand what’s behind it. Otherwise, you’re not, you know, you’re making a movie loosely based

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. Not really, you know, so whatever. Like, I don’t think this

⏹️ ▶️ John movie is going to make any waves. It will come and go. We will forget it, mercifully.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How about just a blanket rule that I’m just going to not even watch any trailers for any of these Steve Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco various things. Just if anybody makes a good one, just let me know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Afterwards. Well, there’s the Sorkin one. Isn’t he doing one? Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes, he is. And he did the… Oh, this isn’t that? He did

⏹️ ▶️ John the… No, this is not that. He

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey did the Facebook movie. How many of these things are there? No, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the terrible one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with Ashton Kutcher. Well, no, no, no, no. That’s not fair. There was one made by Funny or Die that I was dumb enough to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch in its entirety, and I want that hour back.

⏹️ ▶️ John Isn’t that supposed to be a joke?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it was so painfully bad. And the comedy of it is, Justin Long is Steve Jobs. Jobs. Justin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Long, the I’m a Mac Justin Long, was Steve Jobs. And I should have known from the title,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I think was I, Jobs, that it was going to be friggin terrible. And friggin terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doesn’t begin to describe how bad that movie was.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like an SNL skip that goes on for an hour.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, but during that terrible time in SNL when it was not even in the realm of funny.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, I don’t even I feel like John Syracuse right now. I’m so fired up and angry about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, let’s take a break from talking about terrible entertainment. Let’s do that. good entertainment.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This episode is sponsored by Audible. They’re the leading provider of downloadable audiobooks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have over a hundred thousand titles in virtually every genre. So if you want to listen to something,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Audible has it. Listen to audiobooks anytime, anywhere. You can listen to them on iPhones,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPads, computers, Kindles, lots of things. Even the old iPods, they even work on those.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re offering ATP listeners a free audiobook along with a 30-day trial.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to slash ATP to take advantage of the special

⏹️ ▶️ Marco offer. Get a free audiobook, free 30-day trial,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP. Now Audible likes if their hosts have something to recommend, a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain book. It helps, you know, to get started because then you know like, okay, what do you want your free audiobook to be? So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you guys have any great recommendations of great audiobooks you’ve heard recently?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have recommendations of books I’ve read. I’ve not heard them on audiobooks,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco but I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey confident that they are excellent. I have two. The first one, which everyone will judge me for,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the new Dan Brown book, which I believe is called Inferno.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Judge,

⏹️ ▶️ John judge, judge.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know, I know. So I actually quite like that one, but I’m a sucker for Dan Brown

⏹️ ▶️ Casey books. They’re easy reads, they’re exciting, and so I like that. The other one is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a book that my wife recommended, which is called The Art of Racing in the Rain,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and It was a little bit on the emotional side and a little less on the racing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey side. But there was enough racing to keep me excited and entertained. And I actually really like that one as

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well. So I would recommend both of those.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s so you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s what Audible is good for. I would never recommend someone read

⏹️ ▶️ John this recommendation, I’m going to say. But on audio, this is the ideal place for it. So

⏹️ ▶️ John what I did when I was looking at this, I went to the Audible Icon website and I searched for Stephen King, who’s one of my favorite authors.

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, feel free to judge. And I got 145 results, which I guess doesn’t surprise

⏹️ ▶️ John me because he’s got a lot of books. But they have, I mean, I don’t know if they have all of them, but they have a lot,

⏹️ ▶️ John all right? And what I’m going to recommend is the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, which is like a gazillion

⏹️ ▶️ John pages. And if I line them up on the shelf in hardcover and I said, oh, you should really read this book series, you’d be like, okay,

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. There’s no way I am reading that. Because it’s just too much. can recommend one book

⏹️ ▶️ John and like oh maybe I’ll read it and see if I like it but recommending a seven book series that took place basically over the

⏹️ ▶️ John course of my entire life from you know from 1970s and it ended in the 2000s right but an

⏹️ ▶️ John audio they have every single one of these an audio and if you’re on a long car trip

⏹️ ▶️ John or you’re gonna be traveling or you’re just you know gonna listen to it over the summer at the beach or when you’re out mowing

⏹️ ▶️ John the lawn you just get every single one of the seven books and just plow through them and that is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John the only way most people are ever going to read a multi-thousand page epic like the Dark Tower.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it is, we haven’t done the incomparable podcast about this

⏹️ ▶️ John series yet. We will eventually. I think it’s great. Even when it goes off the rails a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit, I think it all comes together in the end. So that’s my recommendation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this is also, I would like to say that one reason I do like audiobooks, especially, first of all, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco traveling in cars and everything, it’s awesome for all that. But one thing I like about them is I actually like when a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco books are abridged, because a lot of books need to be abridged. You

⏹️ ▶️ John know? No, I hate when they’re abridged. I was going to specifically mention these Dark Tower ones are unabridged,

⏹️ ▶️ John which I like. But I guess Audible has both. So if you’re the kind of person who doesn’t want to hear all the words in the book, then

⏹️ ▶️ John they have that for you. But I highly

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey recommend the unabridged.

⏹️ ▶️ John Judge, judge, judge. The unabridged. Show title, there you go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thank you very much to Audible for sponsoring this episode of ATP. get a free audio book and 30-day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trial, go to Thanks a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. What’s next?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So the other thing I wanted to ask you guys about, and perhaps more, Marco, than anyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else, since you haven’t done any of your other homework, is what do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you suspect people will do? And I think we’ve touched on this briefly, but what do you suspect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app developers will do with regard to dropping support of old versions of iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when iOS 7 out. I feel like we’ve glanced off the outer atmosphere of this topic, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s more to be said. So let’s suppose that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey haven’t sold everything that you own, and let’s suppose you still had at least one popular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app, be that Insta something else or Instapaper or whatever. What do you think you would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do? I mean, you’ve said in the 300 other podcasts you were on this week that you’re probably going to stick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with iOS 7 for this new thing. But what do you think you would do if you had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a successful existing iOS app?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a really good question. Because, yeah, obviously, I think if you’re making a new app and you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no legacy to support, I would say no question, make a brand new one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and require iOS 7, period. No question?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, you can’t say no

⏹️ ▶️ John question. But say you’re EA and you’re going to release a game, you’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John to support iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Independent

⏹️ ▶️ John developer like a one or two person shop making an application Yeah, then they should

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco go right I was seven only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially I am also referring to Applications where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They aren’t custom making most of their entire interface like you know a game has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually an entirely custom interface That doesn’t use any standard widgets or anything At least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in most cases,

⏹️ ▶️ John but even not a game like if say you say Evernote didn’t exist but they formed a company six months ago,

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re about to come out with their first product. It’s going to be called Evernote. It’s a note-taking type of thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I would still say don’t make it iOS 7 only. I think that is a luxury that you

⏹️ ▶️ John have if you know that, well, you’ll get into this, I’m sure,

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually. Because the other side of this coin is you can stand out from the pack

⏹️ ▶️ John by being iOS 7 only and being the only app that accurately links up with iOS. But I guess Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John Office would be another example of their even though their new iOS office is not all that impressive if Microsoft

⏹️ ▶️ John Office came out like the real Microsoft Office not just like a SkyDrive application lets you view and minimally edit apps

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t that they have to support iOS 6 they can’t say oh no Microsoft Office own for iOS 7

⏹️ ▶️ John only because that that offers a no advantage and offers a mostly disadvantaged so it’s not quite as

⏹️ ▶️ John universal I think as you’re saying but for you it definitely is universal and for lots of other people

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a way to to stand out from the pack because if you were the first to-do app that is truly iOS 7 native and look, feel,

⏹️ ▶️ John and functionality, you stand out more than if you just make another to-do app that works on iOS 6 and 7.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, and part of it also is about why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your app exists, right? If you are somebody like Evernote or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Instagram or Twitter, you know, like a big web service where your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco primary business is not selling your app for a few bucks. Your primary business is this big web service,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially if it’s something social where you need to have as many people as possible, then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you should be compatible with as many versions as possible. Then you might still need to run on iOS 5, who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Probably not 5, but you at least couldn’t go 7 only so soon, because that would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really hurt your bottom line to lose all those free users. That would hurt the bigger

⏹️ ▶️ Marco product too much, probably, for a while. And similarly, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re that kind of company, you should probably also have an Android app and a Windows Phone app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and even a Windows 8 app just to get, because you need to be everywhere, right? But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most people, most iOS developers are doing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are in one of two situations. Either they’re doing contract work for somebody else, which is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would assume, based on just anecdotal evidence and talking to people everywhere,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would assume that contractors are probably probably the bulk of the people programming for iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would, if not the majority, I bet they’re a massive portion. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so if you’re contracting for somebody else, you might not be able to make this choice, or at least not yet, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you might not be able to be that aggressive with it. So, you know, that will just depend on your client and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your business needs. But if you’re in the segment of developers, like what I usually do, which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, you know, you sell an app for money, and, you know, in some form whether it’s whether it’s the magazine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with an app purchase or something else with an app purchase or whether it’s a few bucks up front for the app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Vesper, an Instapaper, you know that kind of stuff. If you’re in that business where you need to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco money from the app and you’re better off having a better app that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people will talk about and think is worth money and you’re better off targeting people who will spend money

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on an app, then not only does that weight you more towards newer devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and people who upgrade quickly anyway, but then you really can stand out by, as you said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you really can stand out by having a really, really nice iOS 7 app from early

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on in that OS’s release cycle. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re in that kind of situation, and obviously I think it’s very important to recognize whether you are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or not, but if you’re in that kind of situation where you can benefit from having a really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great app for the new OS and you’re targeting people with money, then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s very safe to require it within about a month of the launch.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think one thing everyone can agree on, assuming Apple’s numbers are accurate and I have no reason to doubt them, is that it’s probably

⏹️ ▶️ John safe for everyone if you’re making a new application to drop iOS 5.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah. Because 6, 93% like it doesn’t matter who you are, that’s safe,

⏹️ ▶️ John right, at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Unless you’re targeting the iPad, then it’s a little bit less safe.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I guess if you have an app that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iPad only. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John And specifically targeted to people who are likely to have old iPads. But 90, it’s not going to get any safer than

⏹️ ▶️ John that. When are you going to have a higher number than that in adoption? As a lot of people were pointing out on Twitter today,

⏹️ ▶️ John or maybe it was just one person, I cannot keep track before I read these things. iOS 7 probably

⏹️ ▶️ John won’t be like that because iOS 6 stretched back pretty far, like a surprisingly far amount down to lower,

⏹️ ▶️ John crappier devices. is iOS 7 draws the line a little bit closer up. And so it will probably,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll have to wait for those old devices to age out and it will probably be a long, long time before

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iOS 7 or greater

⏹️ ▶️ John has. That’s not true. They, no,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco no,

⏹️ ▶️ John no, 6. You don’t think so?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking specifically of my cruddy iPod Touch that runs iOS 6 and totally shouldn’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The 3GS?

⏹️ ▶️ John No,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey well, iPod Touch. No, no, no, I’m saying, I’m at 3G. The iPod Touch is

⏹️ ▶️ John the, 3GS is the other example, like that it could run iOS 6, but you know.

⏹️ ▶️ John But what does 7 go down to though? it goes down to the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for it supports everything that six does except the three G s and that iPhone four

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cord touch

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like

⏹️ ▶️ John any iPod touch except for the most recent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right yeah yeah the one that was based on the iPhone for internals it does not support that one but it supports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the recent ones and all and which is everything has been for sale except for the cheapest one until two weeks ago

⏹️ ▶️ John well only the only iPod touch it supports is the absolute most recent one right it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco support yes but that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit distorted because they skipped a year of the iPod Touch, which,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John as you know. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John my view of things is also skewed because I’m an iPod Touch household. So it seems to me that it’s like if they came out

⏹️ ▶️ John with Mavericks and the only Macs it ran on are the absolute latest model that they’re still currently

⏹️ ▶️ John selling in each product line. And you feel that way. But we’ll see. But the proof is in the pudding.

⏹️ ▶️ John How well does it run is what really matters. Because I wish I had not upgraded my old Touch

⏹️ ▶️ John to iOS 6 because it chugs. And so, yeah, it can run it. And I was initially

⏹️ ▶️ John happy that it was supported. And I guess I probably still am, because there are probably a lot of apps that are iOS 6 only. At least I can run them.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it is not happy at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. So yeah, I think 7 cuts off about the same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number of people probably as 6 did. And I don’t- If you’re not an iPod Touch user.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but if you’re an iPad user, it cuts off nothing. So maybe that balances out. Anyway, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not that worried about cutting off new devices for 7. I don’t think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco substantially different than every other OS release in that regard. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, I don’t know. I think we are going to see some people holding back just because they don’t like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes. Just like some people held back because they heard about maps or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on 6, or their jailbreaks don’t work until a certain date afterwards or something like that. Those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are all going to be small slices, and they’re all going to add up to something significant, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re all going to deteriorate over time. Once there’s a jailbreak out for 7, if there isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already, there might already be one, but once there’s a jailbreak out, then one of those big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slices goes away. Once there’s, you know, to various degrees of tethering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the jailbreak, then everything all changes. Once most people get a little more comfortable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the idea of how it looks, then another slice starts falling away. Once a new device

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comes out that replaces something that was old and unsupported, like maybe when the next generation of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPod touch comes out, possibly this fall, who knows, maybe then some of the old iPod touch users

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who can’t run the new one, maybe they upgrade. And so then that slice falls away. And that’s always what happens with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every release. There’s always, you know, these segments of people who either can’t or won’t run the new OS for a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited amount of time until either they change devices, old device dies or some condition changes that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was holding it back.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the way you’re talking, it almost sounds like if you still had Instapaper, you would make it iOS 7.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well no, Instapaper still doesn’t require iOS 6. Instapaper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was set on requiring 5 for a while. I forget when I started requiring 5,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it was before 6 was out, but not by that much. I think a few months before 6 came out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco With the magazine I was able to require six because I just didn’t care and I wanted all the new stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I wanted to use Avenir next without having to pay for it for iOS 5.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But again, I think, I mean there’s a few different factors here, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Obviously, again, if you don’t need tons and tons of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco necessarily, if you just need good app sales, that’s different. If Instapaper was a brand new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app being released today, I would probably require… Well, today I’d require 6,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but… I don’t know. I think if it already required 6, and therefore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it had already cut off all the iPad 1 people, then I wouldn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much of a problem requiring 7 within about 2 months of 7’s release.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you also have to consider that the fallback, or the,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t think of the word I’m looking for, but in order to support both iOS 7 and iOS 6,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it stands to reason it’s a lot more challenging than simultaneously supporting 6 and 5.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I mean? So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco in other words, to-

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, not necessarily. I mean, it really depends, right? The magazine supports 7 with a very,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very small code change. It’s literally just like, you know, it’s hidden under the status bar accidentally, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you gotta like change that. That’s it. small change. And you can conditionally do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. You know, if I’m running on 7, do this. Otherwise, do this. You know, if there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco few enough of those conditions, that’s manageable. I think the big problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with trying to support 7 and 6 at the same time isn’t necessarily the code

⏹️ ▶️ Marco complexity, because you can make that work. You know, for the most part, you can deal with that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The big problem is by not fully adopting 7’s new interface

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff, your app will look old and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey feel old. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the big problem is it’s not about code. Well it would be about code if you actually need to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rewrite, you know, if you write two separate interfaces then it is about code. Please don’t do that. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it’s, you know, if it’s just about, you know, we have to work on both then what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna have is an iOS 6 app that happens to be compatible with seven and it’s going to look and feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iOS six app for the most part you know you’ll get like the new bar styles once you compile it for seven and stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it won’t you won’t have any of the new navigation stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’ll be it’ll be a lot harder for you to add that in to an existing code base that has to also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco run on six all the time

⏹️ ▶️ John but there’s a potential pitfall in this though and that you could also end up with to use an os 10

⏹️ ▶️ John an application full of drawers. Do you remember? Maybe that was before your time. Do you remember

⏹️ ▶️ John the drawers in OS X?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, like in, that was one of the- They’re very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco heavily used in like the 10.3

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John days.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was like one of their flagpole UI elements. They said, here’s Mac OS X, and it’s got a thing called Sheets

⏹️ ▶️ John that come down from the window. That was a new element. It’s got this thing called the Dock. That’s new. It’s also got these thing called drawers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the mail application, Apple’s mail application originally featured a drawer, and everybody said, oh, I’m gonna have these

⏹️ ▶️ John drawers in my application. So any kind of application that would today have a sidebar, ended up with a drawer.

⏹️ ▶️ John And drawers ended up being not such a great idea. And so all these people are like, I’m going to be a native application. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to be a carbon application where I’m going to use it. It’s going to be Cocoa. And I’m going to get to use drawers and do all this stuff and look

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m native. And then everyone’s like, yeah, no, not so much on that drawer thing. And then you’re stuck with an application with drawers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you go, oh, I’ve got to change this to a sidebar. So we don’t know what is the equivalent of drawers, if anything. Maybe there’s no equivalent

⏹️ ▶️ John of drawer in iOS 7.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, I would say a dynamics. There might

⏹️ ▶️ John be. Yeah, there might be something in there that’s like that, that seems like a good idea, and everyone jumps in the bandwagon and

⏹️ ▶️ John says, oh, look at this, I’m native, I’m a real iOS 7 application. And then everyone goes, ooh, actually, not so

⏹️ ▶️ John great. And then you’re forced to rewrite parts of your UI because that entire interface element

⏹️ ▶️ John or some aspect of it falls out of favor or is determined to not be a good idea. Not that that argues

⏹️ ▶️ John against doing it. You really should go whole hog into iOS 7, because someone’s got to find out if there

⏹️ ▶️ John are any drawers, to continue to talk to this analogy, lurking. And the only way you’re going to find out people

⏹️ ▶️ John make real applications using the system that Apple has devised and we’ll find out what works and what doesn’t, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think if I were to wager a guess, I think what will happen is a lot of these big apps,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say like Evernote, maybe that’s a little too big, but take Instapaper for example, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’ll try to dance the, you know, we’ll still look like iOS 6 for the most

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part, we’re not going to look like the fancy new iOS 7 thing, and I don’t think that’s going to to work for very long.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that even your average customer is going to say, why does this look so old? Why doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it look better? And I suspect that people will hedge in the direction of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not requiring iOS 7. And then, Marco, I think you’ll end up right, that people will quickly end

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up requiring it after just a couple months.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also, you know, it’s gonna take a little while for developers to realize what they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco should do under iOS 7. You know, this is why, like, I’ve said, like, as soon as we get beta 2, which actually might be before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this this podcast is released. But as soon as we get Beta 2, I’m installing it on my main phone, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I need to start learning it. I have it on this 4S, but I hardly ever use the 4S for anything, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has no data plans. It’s basically an iPod Touch. But I have an iPhone, so it’s never in my pocket.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m never using it. I need to immerse myself in iOS 7 as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a user, so I can start to understand how my app should be. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s going to take developers a while to get into that, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do the 4S and the 5 have the same size sim? I don’t remember. I’m not sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess I could pop it over if they do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s what I was going to say. If it were me, I don’t have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco 4S. But it’s so chunky and the screen is so short.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Oh, it’s so terrible. The short

⏹️ ▶️ John screen is the one that’s going to kill you. I still like the 4 design better

⏹️ ▶️ John than the 5 design in terms of an object. the short screen

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re like you can’t go back once you get the taller one. It’s gonna be the same way when the iPhone Plus comes out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, the chat is correcting us that actually no, they’re not the same SIM size.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, then you won’t have to suffer through the small screen then. Damn. Anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Keep in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mind that my carry phone is a 4s, you spoiled jerks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s alright. You’ll probably upgrade this fall, right? Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a 2D air cycle? Yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It’ll

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have never really played with network attached storage before, and this thing was set

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up pretty much immediately, and it is basically private Dropbox, in the best possible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way. It really is pretty nice. And aren’t they coming out with a new version of their software? Am I making

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up? Yes, there’s a 2.0 version. It might be out by the time this podcast airs. I spoke with them today, and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it might be. They’re storage people, so they’re very conservative with what they release. They want to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sure it’s stable and everything like that. So yeah, so there’s going to be this big 2.0

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version that makes the software even better and gives you a lot of the conveniences that the Dropbox integrated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco software does with things like Finder integration and things like that. Also worth pointing out is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these capacities, I mean, to get 2 terabytes on Dropbox, you’re going to end up paying quite a lot. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because this is all your local storage, they can give this to you. And there’s no recurring fee

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the service. You buy the enclosure, and then just the price of the enclosure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco covers lifetime service from their servers to do the relaying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and coordination of the handshaking and the DNS stuff for your app to be able

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to find your transporter and everything. So there’s no monthly fees. You could buy the enclosure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up front and you’re set. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey anyway, really great

⏹️ ▶️ Casey product. It’s really nice.

⏹️ ▶️ John It really is. All right. Before we move on, I have one brief thing to say about the transporter. I know

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of nerds who hear about this, and I think the first time I heard about it on a podcast ages ago thought like

⏹️ ▶️ John it sounds like a step backwards because like well a drop box so everything’s in the cloud I don’t have to worry about storage

⏹️ ▶️ John anymore and then these people want to sell me a hard drive in a box like didn’t we already do that like I’m we moved on from

⏹️ ▶️ John having hard drive in a plastic box or whatever but you know I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John heard as I’ve you know learn more about the product and looked at it like I what I do is I fast

⏹️ ▶️ John forward in my mind like 10 20 years and what what are these like what got me is watching the video on their

⏹️ ▶️ John site where they show like, you know, always in these videos where they show a nice a nice house with transporters all over

⏹️ ▶️ John and everyone’s work desk has a transport on it or whatever. So if you think about these things are already pretty small, like if you look at them, you know, it’s a two and

⏹️ ▶️ John a half inch drive, they’re already pretty small, but shrink these things down in 1020 years to be like similar capacities.

⏹️ ▶️ John But now they’re the size of a thumb drive. And like, they barely need any energy, or maybe they like get all

⏹️ ▶️ John their energy wirelessly or something like that, and have way more of them. And that is actually like

⏹️ ▶️ John more of the future. Because instead of having a single central service using like Amazon S3 as its back end or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John you have a real truly completely distributed system where everyone’s house is just littered

⏹️ ▶️ John with these little things that deal with their storage and they’re all redundant and talking to each other and completely secure and there is no

⏹️ ▶️ John central point of failure and people aren’t control of their own data because they control, oh, I put these three at home,

⏹️ ▶️ John these four at work, these up in the vacation house or whatever, and your own data, you get all the benefits

⏹️ ▶️ John of a cloud where you can get at it anywhere and it’s redundant and you don’t I have to be like, oh, my

⏹️ ▶️ John power went out of my house, but I still have access to my work transporter, and it synced with my home one or whatever. And that actually

⏹️ ▶️ John sounds more like the sci-fi books, where it’s like a distributed network of completely independent little

⏹️ ▶️ John tiny storage pods, instead of relying on a single company to do your cloud

⏹️ ▶️ John hosting stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah, and plus, you get one of these at home, one of these at work. That’s going to be way cheaper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than having two terabytes of S3 storage that you have to pay for every month.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and it might actually be faster, too. Dropbox occasionally gives me data

⏹️ ▶️ John rates that I know are not anywhere close to maxing out my Fios connection. And I don’t know if they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John throttling it, or if S3 is cranky, or if I’m talking to a server in Seattle and it’s far away from me and it’s a lot of hops.

⏹️ ▶️ John But even just waiting for the audio files to upload to you, they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John going at the speed of my upload connection. Whereas if we both had transporters, the only thing

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco would be stopping and just being our internet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco connection. That’s a great example, because that’s one of the problems I have with a lot of online backup services and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like that is that I have this awesome fat files connection and a lot of servers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or services can’t accept my files fast enough. That’s one of the reasons why previous sponsor,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Backblaze, why I like them so much because Backblaze can actually accept my uploads

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really quickly and usually as fast as I’m willing to send them, whereas a lot of other services

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t do that. But yeah, this is even better. This is just going direct from your pipe at home

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to wherever you’re requesting it from. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey thanks to the Transporter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, thank you very much and thanks for sending at least one of us a demo unit. I really do like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think pretty much anything called the Transporter is cool because you had the movies, right? I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John mean, that was… Oh, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey going to get so

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco much email. When

⏹️ ▶️ John you Google for it, the movie isn’t the number one hit, but they’re the number two, so they’re doing pretty well. That’s pretty good. SEO.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was a very, very popular movie series. It’s so bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was entertaining. It was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco bad. It was! It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is like the pinnacle of bad entertaining movies. And Jason Statham, is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how you say his name? He is in so many bad entertaining movies. But I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Transporter, especially the first one, is just like the best example of this category.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But didn’t he use Audis the whole time? So we can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco watch this. Yeah, I believe it was a, I believe they were A8 with the W12.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey kidding. Yeah, they were all the big Audis, if memory

⏹️ ▶️ Casey serves. I only saw the first one I think and it was an A8 if memory

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco serves. Yeah but it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had the W12 engine I believe so it was like the souped up A8. Yeah whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway I have another couple things we can talk about but I’ve been Captain Dictator

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so do you guys have something you would like to share?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco John?

⏹️ ▶️ John Did I complain about the iOS 7 calendar already?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No you did not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I had this in my mind as soon as I saw the keynote and I was like oh it’s just a little thing not a big

⏹️ ▶️ John deal It’s a beta or whatever, but it’s just been annoying at me. And then I always thought, well, maybe I already complained about it. But

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, if this is a repeat, I apologize. I’m old. I’m senile. And blame the other two for not reminding me that I already talked about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So in the Google Docs file that I know you all constantly have open, there’s a link to an Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Insider article that has the picture I want that I’m pretty sure was shown publicly, so we’re not breaking

⏹️ ▶️ John any NDA. But anyway, you can just go to, and the link will be in the show notes. And do you guys

⏹️ ▶️ John have this picture up now?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, I got it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John This article? Took me a while

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to figure out how I click a link from

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Google Docs or you just

⏹️ ▶️ John like you know Marco can just pull up his ios7 device and look at the calendar I but look at the middle picture of the counter showing the month

⏹️ ▶️ John view I Think I complained about it on Twitter. Maybe that’s what I remember. You see that you see that

⏹️ ▶️ John the month view

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mm-hmm

⏹️ ▶️ John Like we were all in the sessions and heard about the philosophy of ios7 and even in the keynote

⏹️ ▶️ John They talked about it about you know clarity and deferring to the content not having a lot of chrome getting in

⏹️ ▶️ John the way What’s important about this? I just want to see this stuff. And so a good example of that is the red dot on the number 17 in the screenshot

⏹️ ▶️ John showing you today is the 17th. You look at the screen, you can immediately find what day today is. It’s not like a subtle

⏹️ ▶️ John gray highlight or a little tiny underline. It’s like, boom, red circle. Today is the 17th, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Not a lot of vertical lines separating anything. And it’s very clean. The numbers are

⏹️ ▶️ John laid out there. But to me, and this happens to me in lots of calendar apps, on the Mac, in

⏹️ ▶️ John menu bar icons, anywhere, the most important thing, especially stupid outlook for the Mac. The most

⏹️ ▶️ John important thing for me to know is what the hell month am I looking at? That’s really important to me.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, oh don’t you know what the current month is? If you see the current day don’t you always know what the current… No! I don’t always know what the current month is, especially

⏹️ ▶️ John when it’s on around month boundaries or have we crossed over and stuff. And if you’re paging through and you’re not on the page with today, what month

⏹️ ▶️ John am I what month am I looking at? That is super important. That is like the most important piece of content

⏹️ ▶️ John on this page with the possible exception of what today’s date is. But even today’s date is meaningless if you don’t know what month it is

⏹️ ▶️ John and look how they treat the month in the month view on the calendar you see

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco where it is in the screen shots

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m looking at the old calendar app on my phone next to this to see for comparison and yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know if it’s better worse the same but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I know the old one it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like there’s like a second title bar below the main bar then it just says in big bold letters June 2013

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John and

⏹️ ▶️ John this one says John it does not say June it has the three-letter abbreviation

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like of all the content on this page it should be just gigantic and bold

⏹️ ▶️ John and not abbreviated, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, also, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to change positions as you flip through the months.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s like I was asking people on Twitter, why in the world? Like, this is so in conflict with their

⏹️ ▶️ John stated philosophy. Like, I think they even brought this up when they’re talking about the philosophy, but like, defer to the content. The content

⏹️ ▶️ John is king. We really just want to see, people just want to see their content. And the photo is like, look, we want to see your photos. We’re here,

⏹️ ▶️ John I want to see what the frigging month is. Like, oh, well, that’s not so important. We’re going to abbreviate it because it’s us to

⏹️ ▶️ John attach it right above the number one in the month. And you’re right, not only is it small, not only is it

⏹️ ▶️ John not emphasized, like it’s even less distinct than the back button, for crying out loud, it’s going to move on every single page

⏹️ ▶️ John because if the first day is a Friday or Thursday or Wednesday, it’s going to move around and continue to be abbreviated.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that, I mean, it’s, so what? They made one choice that is counter to what they’re doing,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I thought it wouldn’t bother me. It’s like, yeah, they made a bad decision in one application, those guys will fix it. I mean, the Notes app could be argued

⏹️ ▶️ John as even worse, but the weird letterpress style and the inset shadows and stuff or whatever, but like, big deal. They

⏹️ ▶️ John made, nobody’s perfect. They have a philosophy. They’re saying, this is what our philosophy is. This is our ideal.

⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. We failed to achieve it. Uh, but as time has passed, it continues to just stick in

⏹️ ▶️ John my craw that I’m just like having them up there showing this application

⏹️ ▶️ John and saying those words. Like you’d want to hide this one. You’d want to be like, Oh, don’t look at that one. But that one we

⏹️ ▶️ John know doesn’t conform to our philosophy. Don’t show it and say, isn’t this beautiful? Isn’t this nice? No, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not. It says, John. It’s bothering me more and more.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I know everyone is talking about the icons in the home screen and are they going to change those? Oh, don’t worry. It’s just a beta.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’ll have plenty of time to refine them. They won’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco though. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, anyway, this is what I’m looking at it as my bellwether because this doesn’t require you redrawing a whole

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of icons. This just requires someone to go, you know what? The month is a pretty darn important thing in month

⏹️ ▶️ John view. It does not deserve to be abbreviated. It should be bigger. It should be bolder. And that’s the kind of—I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John just center it, put it on the same line, center it, let them spell it out. Plenty of room for German month names, which I assume are much

⏹️ ▶️ John longer than ours. Whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But faster. Yeah. And they all move over to the right when you come up behind them.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. It bothers me. And I expected after the keynote to see a million people slamming this, because

⏹️ ▶️ John it is the most obvious example of, like, do what I say, not as I do. And yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, you know, people have been pointing this out a lot and not just… Well, this is actually the first time I’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the calendar complaint, but the people, you know, people, us included, have pointed out lots of,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, lots of just design flaws in iOS 7 so far.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think it’s important to consider that, you know, similar to how Apple the company,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they always look out for, you know, people think, oh, they do everything, whatever is best for users,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that’s not quite true. They do what’s best for Apple first and then secondarily what’s best

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for users and and if those priorities are ever challenged what’s best for Apple always wins.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Similar to that I think we all think of Apple as this company has this really great design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense and they do mostly but there’s always been this kind of competing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interest at Apple of what looks cool and what looks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool I think is more important overall than what’s a great design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to them in many instances and especially in software. Hardware they can often

⏹️ ▶️ Marco find the right balance. In software they often don’t. And I think this is one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those examples a lot about iOS 7. For example, I think using the super thin font everywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I find the extremely thin font extremely hard to read. And the fact

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that there is that adjust legibility setting to just make the font a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thicker. That alone says like, you know, they know this too and somebody’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fighting about it internally. You know, there’s always things like this with Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco software. Almost everything they’ve removed from like the, you know, quote skeuomorphic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff from like desktop calendar and stuff like that. Like almost all these things were things that were put in there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because they look cool and high enough up people, oftentimes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steve in the past, high enough thought people thought they looked cool enough to push them through even though

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people knew that it wasn’t as good of a design or it wasn’t as functional or it wasn’t as usable or it wasn’t as legible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John So…

⏹️ ▶️ John In the case of Jun,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the

⏹️ ▶️ John cool thing that they are preserving, which many people pointed out and which I think is totally not a justification for it but is

⏹️ ▶️ John possibly an explanation, is that when you go from the month to the year view, like they want to do the transition,

⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like you’re just zooming out, and then in the year view, the months are abbreviated. And I think there

⏹️ ▶️ John it kind of makes sense because you can do the abbreviation in a much larger font You can put three big letters you see it to the left there, you know, like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know It would be harder to read September spelled out on the year view But you can make SCP

⏹️ ▶️ John really big for September And so they want the dynamic transition that Jun to go right into the little

⏹️ ▶️ John Jun on the year view in a transition and it’s like oh see it’s like it’s perfect just like how the title

⏹️ ▶️ John slides over with the back button to become the title of the previous page and all that stuff like it’s just perfect right and And

⏹️ ▶️ John someone was so married to that perfect transition that they could not bear a crossfade into J-U-N-E, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John You know what I mean? Like a crossfade from year view into month view, where the three-letter abbreviation crossfades

⏹️ ▶️ John into the full month name, is not the end of the world. But someone was like, no, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco married to,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is the transition. No crossfades. It’s got to be, it’s got to feel like it’s a real thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s the wrong call, because it’s better to sacrifice the purity of that transition

⏹️ ▶️ John to conform to your other supposed purity, which clarity of and deferment to the content and what is important

⏹️ ▶️ John and just show what’s important to the user.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. But it’s Oh, but what if something is almost as usable and looks really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool, they will always opt for that every time.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’s just a bad call. It’s just a bad call one app. It’s not a big deal. But like, that’s my that’s my canary

⏹️ ▶️ John in the coal mine. I’m gonna be watching to see when that abbreviation gets bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll be watching to see when the default font is thicker.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree. But to go back to the calendar, I do You think it was very cool, and John, you touched on this briefly,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the way the transitions worked. And I don’t have an iOS 7 device here, but my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey memory tells me that when you went from the day view to the month view, you kind of zoomed out and back towards

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your face. That’s a terrible description, but you kept zooming outwards. And like you said, John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you went from the month view and then you zoomed out to the year view. And then the way the transition for the home screen is, when you hit

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the home button from the year view, you would kind of zoom out again into springboard. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just thought that was really well done and really cool. But before you said crossfade, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was thinking to myself, you know, that’s weird. Why didn’t they do a crossfade from month to year?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because it’s not a real Zoom’s don’t crossfade, right? You know, it’s like it’s not real. But

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing about all those things is like, I think they are good and they are really neat to see. But all the

⏹️ ▶️ John previous versions of iOS have pretty much demonstrated that the conceptual model

⏹️ ▶️ John of home screen application, like that one level of like you’re either in an app, you’re in a home screen, people

⏹️ ▶️ John get that even with the transitions that are not as beautiful and perfect as they are on ios 7 because

⏹️ ▶️ John like you said if you tap on it and ios 7 the calendar in particular because it’s icon looks like you had

⏹️ ▶️ John simply zoomed in on you know the day view and in a month calendar and it’s just all like oh i’m

⏹️ ▶️ John just pushing back pushing back zooming in zooming in and just one smooth continuous experience that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John great and all but it’s like it’s fixing something that wasn’t really a problem because everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John very quickly grocs screen with a bunch of icons, you’re in an app, you hit that button, you go back to the screen with a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of icons. Like everybody gets that. That’s a simple, it’s not super duper, even ignoring folders, which I think people

⏹️ ▶️ John still also kind of get. But just that model of like you’re either on Springboard or you’re in an app, and if you’re in an

⏹️ ▶️ John app and you wanna get to Springboard, you hit the button. You don’t need the transition, like the genie

⏹️ ▶️ John effect to say where the hell did my window go? I think that is still necessary because people click a button on their window

⏹️ ▶️ John and the window just disappeared, they will not notice that a little square appeared in the lower right. But I think everybody, even if it

⏹️ ▶️ John was zero transition, grocks the model eventually, and certainly now, of just

⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, I get it now. I’m in an app. I hit that button. I’m back on the screen with the icons. I get how those two things

⏹️ ▶️ John are arranged. And so this marriage to this particular transition is like, it’s too much. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John killing an ant with a sledgehammer. Like, we get it. We understand how you get to and from the home screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I don’t say you shouldn’t do it. It’s good. It’s nice and everything. But do not sacrifice aspects of the application

⏹️ ▶️ John for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think it’s going to be a lot like, you know, when I made the magazine 1.0 and my goal was to have no setting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco screen. And then that actually turned out to cause a few other bad design decisions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because I was trying to reach that one goal and reality interfered.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I had to compromise in other ways. And then that turned out to be the wrong decision.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think there’s a lot of cases like that in iOS 7 where they’re trying to preserve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something about the appearance or the structure or their principles and they’re trying to say, well we need to do,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we need to make this choice because of this principle that you know we, that this is one of our goals so therefore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know because this animation is going to be this certain way then it’ll look best to have Jun there instead of June

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so this is what we’re stuck with and or this is the right thing to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and eventually they’re gonna start refining that and cutting back on some of these things I think or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or finding new ways to satisfy both.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah. They’ve got principles that they laid out. And some of the principles sometimes come in conflict. And it’s the question of which

⏹️ ▶️ John one wins. And picking the right winner is just as important as picking the correct principles. Because we all agree with

⏹️ ▶️ John the principles. All the transitions should be smooth and obvious. And also, we agree with, oh, the content should be emphasized and not the Chrome.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you’re on board with the iOS 7 idea, we’re on board with both of those. And it’s like, OK, when they come in conflict,

⏹️ ▶️ John we maybe don’t agree with picking the transition one over the content being king.

⏹️ ▶️ John or deciding that their entire treatment of text also clashes with

⏹️ ▶️ John someone being able to look at this thing at a glance and all they see is the content. Like what they want to know is there and they’re not distracted

⏹️ ▶️ John by the interface. And if people are having trouble reading these spindly little fonts, then some other aspect

⏹️ ▶️ John of the philosophy has stomped on the one we think should be more important. Right, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we really that surprised either that Apple, when creating this new whiz-bang thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has favored the new whiz-bang thing over what is arguably right. In other words, I don’t think it’s surprising

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they’re choosing John over doing something that doesn’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fit the whiz bang as well, but is really the right answer. And that’s putting June in.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Does that

⏹️ ▶️ John make sense? But they picked these tenants. Like they really hammered on deferment, like

⏹️ ▶️ John deferring to the user in the content and emphasizing the content over the Chrome. Like that’s them. No one’s putting that on them. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not burdened with that. They’ve chosen that as a tentpole of iOS 7. And

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s up to them to figure out like, like, if they if they give us all these, these philosophies

⏹️ ▶️ John and tenants of iOS seven, they have to figure out how to reconcile these in a

⏹️ ▶️ John pleasing way. And if they it seems to me that they’re picking the wrong ones, like the one that most people can be on board

⏹️ ▶️ John with, I think the one that most people are on board with is, okay, good. No more weird leather and felt

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that’s not important. It’s distracting. We just want to see the information. Show me my calendar,

⏹️ ▶️ John show me what the month is, show me what today’s data is, show me if I’ve got it in the car. Like I just want the information. Don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John distract me with fancy looking buttons and stuff. I think that’s the one that we all agree is a

⏹️ ▶️ John good idea in iOS seven. And the other ones that they latched onto about their particular treatment of typography

⏹️ ▶️ John and how things are transition were like, those are good and everything. But like, we really, we really liked the one where you,

⏹️ ▶️ John where you emphasize the content and not the Chrome. And you know, their prioritization

⏹️ ▶️ John of those, this tenants, tenants that they chose seem to be different than everyone else’s at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and this is, I mean, all design for all apps, every design is a whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bunch of series of choices. And most of them are not easy choices. And, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because with those principles they have, almost none of them are, you can just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, all right, well, you know, how should this thing behave? Well, we’re gonna satisfy all three of those things perfectly and make everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great by just doing this one option here. Like every time you’re designing something developing something, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always having to compromise on those things. Good design is about figuring out the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right compromises. There’s always going to be lots of conflicting rules and principles

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and factors and everything like that. What makes a good designer a good designer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is having great judgment there and then also being able to look back when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ve been wrong and say, you know what, that was the wrong choice. overall better to do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it this other way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Alright, is that all we got?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess. We good?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think we’re good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright, well thanks a lot to our two show sponsors. Audible, go to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP and FileTransporter, or just simply Transporter,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco go to slash ATP and thanks a lot guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, oh it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him,

⏹️ ▶️ John Cause it was accidental, oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. And you can find

⏹️ ▶️ John the show notes at ATP.FM And if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John into Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey T. Marco Armin,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s accidental, they didn’t mean to. Accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ John tech broadcasts so long.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t have any objections to it. If we have the blessing of the person in the chat room, who will never get credit on

⏹️ ▶️ John the show, we’ll just have to tell his grandchildren, they used my title once. Didn’t hear that on the show,

⏹️ ▶️ John Grandpa. Oh, trust me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do kind of like I feel like John Syracuse and now but I don’t think that really makes sense in the grand scheme of things

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t know how I feel you don’t know what it feels like to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not even that late we’ve had some fun reviews lately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really I don’t even read them but I always forget that that’s a thing that I can go check

⏹️ ▶️ John not that many reviews maybe we should have We have every three months begging for people

⏹️ ▶️ John to review us. I remember that they existed recently, too. I usually check them pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John obsessively, but I had a long spell where I didn’t. I mean, WNBC had an interruption. I went back and there weren’t that many new ones. So

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe we have to go back to that section of the show where we beg everybody to leave iTunes reviews.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the problem is that they’re not in the theme song. There’s no call out in the theme song.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John We’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tons of Twitter followers. Our site’s doing great.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know. You don’t need to call it the theme song. But every once in a while you mention the review and people go,

⏹️ ▶️ John we have a lot of reviews. All our reviews are good. And most of them, the good thing about having a show with

⏹️ ▶️ John three people on it is that in most reviews, your chances of them saying something nice about you are good.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like the reviews always say something good about two out of three people.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You know what I mean? And someone gets thrown under

⏹️ ▶️ John the bus. That is true actually.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah. That’s usually,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco that’s mostly true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s mostly true. However, I cannot remember seeing a bad comment about John ever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if there’s a bad comment, I’d say it’s two thirds about how much of a Marco is and one third

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about how well ignorant and stupid

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I am.

⏹️ ▶️ John My bad comments are great. My great comments, at least severe, but usually what it is, it’s like the show isn’t as good as hypercritical.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, that’s what it comes down to for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco my which is, which is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is actually a compliment to you.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know. But like, that’s the bad thing that they say is that that my performance in this show is lesser

⏹️ ▶️ John and it doesn’t satisfy their need for whatever it is they need from you know what I mean like and that’s so yeah I’m getting

⏹️ ▶️ John off with the least bad reviews but what I’m saying is like most of them

⏹️ ▶️ John two out of three people they say something nice about.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah but uh some of the god I’m trying to find one or two of them that were interesting oh here you go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco is so full of himself but John makes up for them all seriously a good listen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I see I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s I mean that’s pretty that’s pretty standard I would I mean, I feel like nobody really insults you Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They just

⏹️ ▶️ John You want to read some bad Casey ones

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey go

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would love to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just thought the only bad Casey ones were like Who’s this guy?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No

⏹️ ▶️ John Now they know who he is. They don’t like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So in the middle of a very long review I think Armit and Syracuse have feel that they need a moderator of sorts

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to keep the show moving I agree, but they picked the wrong guy They picked a friend rather than someone with the requisite skill

⏹️ ▶️ Casey set Casey’s in over his head I would have been too, but I would have declined the offer

⏹️ ▶️ John First of all, that’s what you’re wrong. We didn’t none of us like Casey first of all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco suppose Suppose his entire premise is true Do you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anybody could like rein us in when we’re? Taking when we’re when John and I are both talking forever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about something like it’s an impossible job

⏹️ ▶️ Casey job. I don’t know how to approach this diplomatically and delicately. And so I’m just going to say you two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are f***ing impossible sometimes. Actually, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was legitimately good feedback and actually, to be fair, made me try to work on something that I do think is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an issue. Casey is diplomatic to the point of blandness, always tempering his point of view as if to not upset anyone ever.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Which continues, I miss hypercritical, but having John Syracuse on any podcast is better than none. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually think he is that that was a reasonable point.

⏹️ ▶️ John I did like it’s like the Dark Crystal though. You guys that before you guys time, you know, Dark Crystal. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John come on guys. Not Marco nothing what chat room. This is what I have to work with here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey God, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John didn’t think that I

⏹️ ▶️ John thought for I questioned whether I should preface that with like, oh, have you guys heard of that because I would be like insulting. It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John have you guys heard of Star Trek like you’d be like, oh, come on. Like, of course, you’re a starter. Don’t be stupid, but nothing. All right, never mind.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m not gonna.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The chat room is catching up and they all hate us now. So, although I will say to go back

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a step, Ben Rice said, I still think Casey List is Marco’s imaginary friend.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, I’ll try my dark crystal thing anyway. So like, what we have here with

⏹️ ▶️ John the three of us together is all the ingredients that are needed, they’re just not evenly distributed. So it’s like some of

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco’s self confidence needs to go into Casey, and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco some of Casey’s ability

⏹️ ▶️ John to shut up needs to go into me and Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco See what I’m saying? So we combine

⏹️ ▶️ John them, then we would have the ultimate podcast host who would then be very lonely.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, that’s so true. Oh, man. And Dented Meat is right. We all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought he was the imaginary friend around here, and then we met him.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I met him for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 10 seconds, but we did meet him.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, by the way, Casey’s real and he’s spectacular. You get that reference!

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I do get that reference.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, you get that reference! Yes, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do get that reference. Oh my god, I’m losing my crap over here. Can that please be the show intro? Oh god, it’s awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We have so many great show intros, I’m gonna have to save them up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We might have to do an after the evening or whatever, or subsequent to the evening, or whatever we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey calling it. Oh, this is good. Or

⏹️ ▶️ John before midnight.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Before midnight, yeah, exactly. Oh goodness, I should find some of these bad reviews

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and pull up Gruber and read them all.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean like the people aren’t like really mean like you know what I mean like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no for the most part there were a couple That actually stung, but I mean genuinely there

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John were they only say the only

⏹️ ▶️ John thing if there’s a kernel of truth If they you know what I mean, but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey people aren’t being no, but people aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John being like Go read go read some reviews to other podcasts. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’ll see

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s the problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like nobody hates us enough to read a really funny bad review

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey They only hate us enough

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to write like kind of mean reviews You know, I

⏹️ ▶️ John think because all listeners are all discerning and intelligent and attractive people Of course, even though even the ones who

⏹️ ▶️ John hate us are articulate enough to leave a reasonable review

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think the only one that stung Well, I shouldn’t say it stung the one that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey read about me hedging too much. That was that was absolutely valid

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and It kind of stung but more was like dude. I really do need to work on that The one about me being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over my head kind of hurt It’s okay though. I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be all right. But the premise there is just not

⏹️ ▶️ John valid. It doesn’t make any sense. I don’t think people understand that you’re a programmer for a living. They think you’re just some guy off the street.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John don’t know. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a.NET programmer most of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John time, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Still, come on. I mean, you know what I mean.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He writes Perl. How are you shitting on me? He writes

⏹️ ▶️ John Perl. Come on. But people think I’m like an iOS or OS X developer, and I’m not.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, actually, all kidding aside, forgive me for starting Mutual Admiration Society, But you know it about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey objective C and Cocoa and Cocoa Touch for someone who never does any of this.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know He says

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s that’s the thing that’s also thing that non programmers don’t understand is that at a certain point? We have a certain level of

⏹️ ▶️ John experience in programming the mysticism of different APIs and languages falls

⏹️ ▶️ John away and you just kind of realize that it’s all more or less the same stuff and Like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the whole thing of you know, employers are like this to like Once you’ve been a professional programmer for, I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ John five years, certainly for ten, you can,

⏹️ ▶️ John assuming you’ve been keeping your skills up or whatever, you can learn any language. Because it’s like, okay, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s the equivalent of whatever in this language? Conceptually, you understand everything you need to know,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s just a matter of syntax. The same thing with APIs. Once you’ve used an API that has all these concepts in terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of callbacks callbacks and notifications and event loops

⏹️ ▶️ John and background processes, like all the conceptually, once you understand the concepts,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like, oh, but you’re an iOS programmer, you’ll never understand OS 10 or you’ll never understand.NET. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s all the same stuff. Like there’s very rarely some new revolutionary idea that you can’t even grok and it’s just a matter

⏹️ ▶️ John of the details.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah. And going back to our design discussion, I think it’s a similar thing with like, you most programming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco languages don’t come out and do radically, totally unheard of ideas.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s just, they’re all trade-offs. And it’s like, all right, well, Wix had a trade-off, what are your priorities for what you’re doing? And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco therefore, Wix had a trade-off, it’s the best for you to use for this. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why it’s so hard to say that one language is quote, better than another, because usually they just have made different trade-offs.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And I think there is a thing where if someone just uses one language forever, and that language doesn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John anonymous functions or closures occurring or pick your whatever feature, then you won’t have seen that

⏹️ ▶️ John concept. And if some other language is heavily based on it, you will not grok it, and you will have to first grok

⏹️ ▶️ John that concept. But that’s why I’m saying if you’ve been in the industry for a long time and used lots of different languages, eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John you didn’t spend your entire time in C. Eventually you run across a language that has these features. Or even if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John just in a language that never had lexical scope, and you don’t understand how that works or why it might be useful.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I feel like just especially in today’s development, like the web where you encounter like seven languages running one application,

⏹️ ▶️ John you get all the concepts or whatever. So then, but I think for non-programmers listening, they

⏹️ ▶️ John will assign you an expertise in a particular realm and decide that you can’t possibly have

⏹️ ▶️ John any intelligent comment on the other realm. So because Casey’s a.NET programmer, like what could he possibly have intelligent to say about

⏹️ ▶️ John OS X? Well, it’s like, you know, it’s not as if, oh, that’s totally

⏹️ ▶️ John foreign. I can’t possibly understand what’s going on there. It’s a GUI API is a GUI API, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, talking to a database from programming language is talking to a database. You know, have you used an ORM before? Well, we have ORMs

⏹️ ▶️ John here too. You know, it’s just all the same stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As long as we can all agree that PHP does suck.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, well, we do. Everyone agrees. No one disagrees.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There is no better or worse language, except PHP, which is worse.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are you feeling okay?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, this is a- Look, I still use it, because again, it’s the trade-offs,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? There’s joke languages that are worse, right? There’s like brain

⏹️ ▶️ John damage. That’s worse. There is levels to go down farther, but yeah, at a certain

⏹️ ▶️ John point. Arguably, PHP is kind of a joke language.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually here’s an interesting question, which maybe we should save for a show. Which is a worse language, PHP or JavaScript?

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, PHP. No contest.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Come on. Really? I think that might require some thought.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, because

⏹️ ▶️ John JavaScript just has so much fewer moving parts. So even if you think all those parts in JavaScript are worse than the parts

⏹️ ▶️ John in PHP, PHP has so many freaking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parts. Well JavaScript has browsers you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I don’t know I think the language

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re just talking about the language the language no no we’re talking about if you’re talking about moving parts we’re talking about in practice here

⏹️ ▶️ John no I mean like the language all the way like think of the size of the API you know this PHP

⏹️ ▶️ John is yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco but think about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think about how much it how much in JavaScript is not accessible from the API you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John know I don’t know I think it’s a simple

⏹️ ▶️ John language that’s crappy but you know at least it’s small.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean PHP might be worse than JavaScript, but I would really have to like, you know, make like a pros and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cons list or something. Like really think about it and really weigh it because I really do think they’re not…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think their badness is closer than you might assume.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, it’s the same thing with the PHP discussion we had way back when. It’s like I’m talking about just the language in the abstract,

⏹️ ▶️ John like in terms of here are the keywords, here’s the syntax, here’s the concepts it embodies, and not any of the practical concerns. Once you throw the

⏹️ ▶️ John practical concerns into it, other things come in. because like JavaScript as a language is better

⏹️ ▶️ John than PHP as a language, but you may say developing a real application in JavaScript is worse because of variances

⏹️ ▶️ John in browsers, whereas PHP is always the same or whatever. Then you can make different arguments. But when I’m talking about the language, I’m always talking about

⏹️ ▶️ John the language in the abstract. Like you’re a language designer, you want to make a thing that executes. There are no real

⏹️ ▶️ John world concerns at all. You’re just designing a language the same way you would design a written language. Here’s the syntax, here are the

⏹️ ▶️ John nouns and verbs, and here’s how it’s structured, and the whole nine yards.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to piddle with some of the server side.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Piddle?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Like, screw

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John around with, screw

⏹️ ▶️ John with, whatever. Alright, you can paddle too if you want, whatever. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so hyper-critical.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco This is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole other show. It

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really is. You know what, we should just bank this for the next time one of us isn’t around. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I want to screw around with like Node.js or one of the new hotness web

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John frameworks. Node.js is

⏹️ ▶️ John so two years ago, come on.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Whatever. I live in the dot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco net world. Isn’t the Windows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Azure thing, isn’t that Node on the server? I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey think it is, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe that’s right. Yeah, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think so. It’s certainly interesting. Whatever I see about Node.js,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it looks like it’s probably really interesting right now, but when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco programming something and you don’t want to spend a ton of time on the nuts and bolts of it, you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really want interesting. You want something that was interesting five years ago. So I think Node.js,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever project I start five years from now, I’ll probably use it then.

⏹️ ▶️ John ideal project with something like Node if you want to experiment. It would be something like like Manton Rees’s like tweet marker type

⏹️ ▶️ John service where conceptually again there’s not a lot of moving parts like you’re gonna be storing an offset or position

⏹️ ▶️ John for people in some sort of server back end and what what your server software has to do is like basically

⏹️ ▶️ John accept a request maybe with some minor authentication and then like get and store a number for somebody.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right, it’s not gonna hit a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem where like oh crap like the icons library sucks for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Then you can write that in Node and be like my first node application, like it’s one step above writing an echo server, but you

⏹️ ▶️ John get all the advantages that are supposedly a node, you see, okay, does this scale really awesomely can is this super easy to deploy,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I can run it everywhere. And like and you can, you can really, you know, torture tested and say, like, Alright, I could have written

⏹️ ▶️ John this in anything, because the amount of code, it’s like three pages of code for for the server part of it, not the storage part,

⏹️ ▶️ John not the all the other stuff, you know, just for the web app part. And that’s a perfect opportunity to try out something new,

⏹️ ▶️ John because you’re like, if it doesn’t work, I’ll just rewrite it. And you know, pick your favorite language, and it won’t be a big deal. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if If it does work, maybe I’ll get all these advantages that everyone says about Node.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I think we should do is we should write websites in just straight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey C, because that sounds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John bright. I did that. Been there, done that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know. I’m trying to troll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s nothing better than string manipulation in C.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh yeah. Really

⏹️ ▶️ John secure too. No buffer overloads in my query parsing code, no sir.