Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

16: John, We Don't Play Games

Modernizing AppKit, wrapping old C APIs, type inference, Haswell and 15" Retina GPUs, Mac Pro speculation, WWDC predictions, and iOS 7 wishes.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Don’t let Marco say hi to you

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a good there’s a good guideline because like what do you do to stop it he’s coming towards me he might say I always

⏹️ ▶️ John have. I know. I got it. It was an accident.

⏹️ ▶️ John It was an accident. Accidentally podcasted. Accident.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was an accident. Accidentally podcasted. John Syracuse. Wise old soul. Since then he’s more of a smack bro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marker or mint. He’s a product man. A seller of love just who’s back to seek him. Casey. Who the hell is Casey? So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since then he’s

⏹️ ▶️ John more of a snack bro Margaritavine! He’s a product man

⏹️ ▶️ John Selling love just to backseek him Casey! Who the hell is Casey? Who

⏹️ ▶️ John the hell is Casey? Who the hell is Casey? It was an accident It was an accident

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidentally podcasted Accident! It was an accident

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidentally podcasted Accident!

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the big problems with Mac development is that even though you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all this hardware to burn these days, you know, all this memory, all these CPU cores, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have tons of resources to take advantage of on the desktop,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the APIs and the widgets and the UI stuff on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac is very, very old and compared to iOS programming,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac programming is in many ways harder. And I wonder if Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has any desire to really dramatically improve that and take advantage of all these people who are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS developers who are learning UIKit, which is way, way easier

⏹️ ▶️ Marco than AppKit and to do a lot of very common things, and to try to modernize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac OS X APIs and to try to bring over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more iOS developers and make life easier, more productive for existing Mac developers. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something they really haven’t done much in the last few Mac OS X releases.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’d really like to see that happen. As an iOS developer who’s kind of scared of Mac programming, I’d

⏹️ ▶️ Marco love to see that happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So are you thinking like a UI kit for OS X?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if they could… The UI kit is very specific for touch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think they could directly bring it over. I don’t think that would make sense. They could definitely modernize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of AppKit, maybe make a whole new API. They probably wouldn’t go that far, but at least modernize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it a lot and bring a lot of the conveniences and the modern choices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from UI kit into AppKit’s widgets and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bring over new widgets, better widgets, all the layer-backed stuff that iOS does that Mac OS still, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think, is like half done. All sorts of stuff like that, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people like Lauren Brichter are way more qualified to talk about, but I know it’s still a problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, didn’t Chalkenberry and IconFactor do Chameleon?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey They did,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then Lauren did Twi—I don’t know how to say that, the Twitter UI

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use up there. Right. And I think there’s even been one or two other ones similar to that. And so because these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frameworks exist, obviously there’s demand for this. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco until Apple does their own thing with the official APIs, it’s never going to take

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off in the same way.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, do either of you guys know how modern they’ve made AppKit recently?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I know you’ve just spent a few minutes saying how not modern it is, but what I mean by that is, do they have block support

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty prevalently throughout any of AppKit? John, do you happen to know this? Because I have not done

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it. I was going

⏹️ ▶️ John to say, the stuff they do to foundation, everybody gets, like fast enumeration, the block support

⏹️ ▶️ John for the low level stuff, where you can iterate over an NS array and execute some block on the contents.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whenever they do that stuff, it benefits both platforms. So there is some sharing amount, plus all the Objective-C,

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever version they’re up to with the properties and all that, that’s all shared. So that bottom layer of both

⏹️ ▶️ John OSes does get better over the years. existing sore

⏹️ ▶️ John points, like the whole NSL versus NSView for the stupid table views and stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like that. That was a big

⏹️ ▶️ John one. That’s just like legacy hanging around. When I see stuff like that, I think, well, it makes

⏹️ ▶️ John me think about the Mac as a platform overall.

⏹️ ▶️ John What’s their motivation to make it better? Is someone saying, I would develop for the Mac, except these

⏹️ ▶️ John APIs are slightly more crufty than they are on the phone, or they’re not close enough, or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that demotivating them? Or is what really demotivating them is that the market share is small compared

⏹️ ▶️ John to the phone, and they don’t feel like they have an

⏹️ ▶️ John idea for a great app, or is it the Mac apps are necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ John much more complicated, and most of your application is not in the UI framework part? Like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John think of something like Photoshop, which is ostensibly a Cocoa app now. They don’t care how old

⏹️ ▶️ John and creaky the Cocoa APIs are. Like, that app is custom from top to bottom,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then just this little thin layer to throw up some stuff on the screen. So I wonder, given

⏹️ ▶️ John its market share, its growth rate, and what the Blockbuster apps on the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John are actually like, what would be the return on Apple’s investment for modernizing

⏹️ ▶️ John the OS X API in ways that aren’t just like, oh, we did this modernization, and it helps

⏹️ ▶️ John both iOS and Mac OS X?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think part of it is if you make it easier, not only does it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco help developers, it also helps Apple. helps their developers and also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know it gives more chance of there being good apps for the platform.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know I mean you could use a lot of those same arguments against improving Xcode or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco improving LLVM or you know improving the the fundamentals of the language like all that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know the the convenient little short syntaxes we got last year for a lot of the the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the boxing classes and stuff like that. Like there’s there’s a lot of stuff like that that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple’s adding, not because they really have to, not because it’s going to help them competitively directly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but just because it’s nice to do for developers. And then they benefit, we benefit, and then maybe there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this trickle-down effect of nicer apps eventually come out for their platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there is competitive pressure from Google on the mobile platform, their dev tools,

⏹️ ▶️ John their ID, their language. And so Apple has to keep up with, at least have parity with

⏹️ ▶️ John that. And their language is memory management, and Apple’s isn’t. So they keenly feel that

⏹️ ▶️ John pressure, I feel like. And that is a much more competitive landscape versus the Mac, where it’s like, what are you gonna do? Write a Windows app?

⏹️ ▶️ John Figure out something for the umpteen crappy APIs available for Windows 8? Like, which

⏹️ ▶️ John one should you use? And how many people are you gonna sell to? And how are you gonna sell the app through the Windows store? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the desktop is yesterday’s news anyway, according to, you know, the

⏹️ ▶️ John prevailing wisdom of the time. And like, it’s not a growth market no matter where

⏹️ ▶️ John you are. And I just feel like Apple doesn’t feel the pressure on the desktop that they do

⏹️ ▶️ John on mobile. So they’re highly motivated to make their mobile experience better for developers to make sure they

⏹️ ▶️ John keep those developers. They’re somewhat motivated to make things better on the desktop.

⏹️ ▶️ John I almost feel like if they really were separate, like imagine they were separate IDEs, like completely separate.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there was no shared core foundation or plain old foundation

⏹️ ▶️ John code between them. And there was no, they used a different ID. So improvements to Xcode didn’t benefit. What

⏹️ ▶️ John would the Mac tool chain look like at this point if they didn’t also get the benefit of, oh, well, Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John doing all this stuff, and it benefits both of them? I don’t know. I mean, whenever I think

⏹️ ▶️ John about this, I think to applications like iPhoto on the Mac that just

⏹️ ▶️ John has not gotten the kind of attention that it would have gotten if iOS wasn’t around. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would say that’s true of almost every Apple Mac application.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Safari they seem to keep up with. And maybe that’s also because it’s benefiting iOS. It’s hard to tease

⏹️ ▶️ John them apart because so much of their work does benefit both. And that’s to their credit, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it

⏹️ ▶️ John was a good decision to use the same core OS on both of them. But it’s hard to figure out how much does Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John care about improving things for the Mac versus how much is the Mac just getting the spillover of their frenzied improvement

⏹️ ▶️ John to iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it also does feel like we’ve talked about before how, in many ways, Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still behaves like a much smaller company than it really is. And often, that’s to its detriment. And one of the examples

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that is that they do have this kind of tunnel vision where whatever is the cool thing that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re really focusing on, everything else just gets ignored and neglected for years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco until somebody comes around and gives it what’s often a half-assed update.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sorry, go ahead, John.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was going to

⏹️ ▶️ John say, if that has changed, if that tunnel vision has changed, we won’t see

⏹️ ▶️ John the results of it until… It’s not the type of thing, you know, when they did the big reorganization along different

⏹️ ▶️ John lines, I forget what they changed it to, they changed it to long functional lines or something instead of along product lines or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. When they did the big reorg and, you know, Forrestall out and Ivan, that could have been the

⏹️ ▶️ John beginning of a change to this tunnel vision, but we won’t know until, I mean, I guess until at least WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ John and possibly later, see the fruits of that reorganization because you can’t turn this thing on a dime, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it kind of gets back to what we talked about a couple shows about the bandwidth of the organization. Does

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple have the capacity to go full steam on multiple fronts?

⏹️ ▶️ John Do they have the capacity to like have a team every single year, making iPhoto better, have a team every single

⏹️ ▶️ John year, like making a movie better? The team that was doing IDVD fine, you can repurpose those people. But any

⏹️ ▶️ John existing active application, is there a dedicated team whose only job is to make his application better and better year after

⏹️ ▶️ John year until that application is irrelevant? And often from the outside, it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not the case. There’s kind of this swing group of people where

⏹️ ▶️ John once the finder is good enough, everybody except one guy and his apprentice gets

⏹️ ▶️ John pulled off of that. And they get put onto whatever old hands-on deck for working on the next version of iOS or

⏹️ ▶️ John something. That’s what it seems like from the outside, because if your application isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John Steve Jobs’ darling in the past, and I don’t know what the current criteria is, maybe like really important

⏹️ ▶️ John to the company. Like it’s very clear that iOS 7 is getting the attention, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, right now. And OS 10 maybe a little bit, but like as you

⏹️ ▶️ John go down the chain of applications that you may be using day after day, and you think, boy, this has not been,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, iWork, God, poor iWork. Like, yeah, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s so hard to tell from the outside what really goes on there, but it sure seems like it doesn’t. Whereas when you look at a company like Google,

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like every time they, you know, Google I oh it’s like Well first of late they dropped

⏹️ ▶️ John tons of their products. That’s one way to do it right Just just get rid of your products that you weren’t bringing forward You know everything is gone except

⏹️ ▶️ John for Google Plus and six other things when they say well all those things that we did keep Here’s awesome new versions of

⏹️ ▶️ John every single one of those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah Wait what’s is I work on the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco older than the Mac Pro? I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John trying I think so it’s isn’t it o9 is the newest

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah Wikipedia

⏹️ ▶️ Marco says iWork 09 came out January 6, 2009. So that’s like a year and a half older than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the current generation of the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and your fake new Mac Pro is a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco great one. That does not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco count at all. I was thinking also on the lines of, going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco back a second, on the lines of API updates and modernizations,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was listening earlier today. I made a little note. I was listening earlier today to another podcast named

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Springboard. we’ll put a link in the show notes at And in episode 10, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were talking about how the guest was Caleb Davenport, and they were talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how, you know, with Arc, we’re training people not to worry about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco memory management, but then like, we still have to like, call down into these Carbon APIs to do certain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things on iOS even, things like address book or key chain, things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that still have no Cocoa wrappers, that you still have to go down to the carbon level API,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or like the raw C API, and do core foundation memory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco management and stuff like that, and all these old style things. And it really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco messes with ARC, and it makes things very confusing. And if we’re teaching people, you don’t have to think about memory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco management anymore. But then they have to use one of these APIs, and they’re leaking strings all over the place, not realizing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that there’s all these exceptions. Like, you don’t have to worry about memory management, except in this case.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so one thing I would love to see is just some stupid wrappers around all those ancient

⏹️ ▶️ Marco C APIs that still don’t have nice Objective-C wrapper classes around

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them, even in iOS. And if iOS 7 brought that, that would, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, it’s not going to make any headlines. It’s not going to set the world on fire, but it’s going to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a minor convenience for so many developers so often.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I couldn’t agree more. I have a very, very, very simple and basic app in the App Store. And what it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey allows you to do is to send canned text messages quickly. And when I started

⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing the address book integration, it was a total pain in the butt for exactly that reason. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean, it’s nothing I can’t handle. I cut my teeth in C++, as I think you did, Marco, C and C++. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I don’t know, you’re so damn old that you probably cut it on, like, assembly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco But anyway, Fortran.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The point being, all kidding aside, that the address book API is terrible because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s all straight C. And it’s so frustrating. And this was pre-arc that I did all this. And it was so frustrating having to drop

⏹️ ▶️ Casey down into that, even with retain release, considerably more tedious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey framework in order to get what seems to be a very simple job done. So I hadn’t thought

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about that. That’s a very good point. And certainly it would make me happy to see some of that get improved. Although

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, like you said, Marco, you and I might be the only ones.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but we’re not, because it’s like, you know, it’s like the whole, the 80, the 80, 20 feature myth,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, yeah, only X percentage of the API’s don’t have nice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cocoa wrappers around them. But almost every developer eventually has to use one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of them, you know, like, at least and, and there’s, there’s just there’s so many APIs, it’s like, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stupid, it would take them not very long, not that much effort, not any kind of significant long

⏹️ ▶️ Marco term maintenance cost just to make really basic wrappers around these things, just so that we never have to think about that again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Did you just do the thing where you say that a feature that you want is really easy to program, and they should just do it? I did. Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John smop. Simple matter of programming.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Will Chipley,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco this is one of his hobby

⏹️ ▶️ John horses, because he

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco really

⏹️ ▶️ John likes Objective-C, and he hates these C APIs. And again, the impression I get from the outside is that the reason this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the way it is, is because there’s some team that’s responsible for the address book API, and the person in charge of that

⏹️ ▶️ John team thinks their C API is just fine. And they don’t have people on the team who are

⏹️ ▶️ John either skilled enough, experienced enough, or motivated enough to do Objective-C wrappers, because they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John cultivated a team of people who are expert C programmers. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the ultimate lateral move project. What do we get when we’re at the end of this? Well, we get no new

⏹️ ▶️ John functionality. We actually make it a little bit slower. Hey, but it’s easier to use, right? And they’re like, why? Why are we doing

⏹️ ▶️ John this? Why are you dedicating one person for the length of this release to make this wrapper? Because Bill Shipley wants it?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, just go do something else that’s new, or you’re needed on this project, or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s so much motion in the address book API.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t know. I mean, I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know. Don’t you get the impression that there’s teams who manage these APIs? Like, this is the team in charge of the whatever API,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s all filled with C, or C++, or whatever programmers. And they made it the way they made it, and I think it’s perfectly

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. And they fixed their bugs, and they can’t be convinced that what they need to do is

⏹️ ▶️ John make a wrapper, or reimplement their API in some different language. Or they have good reasons for

⏹️ ▶️ John it being only in C, Like, yeah, like, it’s, it’s a, I don’t even use these APIs,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s like, I can, I can understand it being a source of frustration, but it seems to me like an organizational

⏹️ ▶️ John failure, more than a technical failure or a failure of leadership or whatever. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just like something about the organization does not allow for this to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and I thought perhaps I made this up, but I thought a lot of these APIs, address book being a great example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what were, uh, very thin layers on top of SQLite or SQLite or whatever we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pronouncing it as, JIF, databases. And maybe I made that up. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought that, like, Address Book is the example that comes to mind. But I could swear I’ve seen a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco couple of those.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, now Address Book has all these permissions and sandboxing things around it to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey prevent

⏹️ ▶️ Marco path from uploading the entire Address Book to their servers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey without anybody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco knowing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But one way or another, the point I’m driving at is, some of these old and arcane APIs, I think, were just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very light wrappers around SQLite. And so nobody thought to bother with them. Or to your point,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, they just didn’t have the desire.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, core data is on top of SQLite if you choose the good back end or whatever. Like, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think it’s a technical thing. I think it comes down to is if you have a bunch of C

⏹️ ▶️ John programmers and you’re tasked with creating a new API, it’s going to be a C API, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not like they can’t learn Objective-C or whatever. But if you go to

⏹️ ▶️ John development with the programmers you have, I don’t know. But you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John just transform them into an experience. Like, you have the guys who made AppKit and the guys who made UIKit.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, you’re experience battle hardened. We can make a new API in Objective-C. We know how to do that

⏹️ ▶️ John the right way because we’ve made crappy APIs over and over again. So now we have experience. And

⏹️ ▶️ John we know, OK, if you’re making an Objective-C API, here’s what it should look like. Here’s the do’s and don’ts. Here’s

⏹️ ▶️ John how to avoid making an API that people can accidentally use badly.

⏹️ ▶️ John All the people who learned that NSL was a bad idea over years of experience, when they made UIKit, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John make the same mistakes a second time. Well, if you take the address book team, a team of people who maybe have never

⏹️ ▶️ John written an Objective-C API, and you tell them, make a wrapper,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe they’ll make one, but will it be a great Objective-C API? It’ll be like my first Objective-C

⏹️ ▶️ John wrapper API. And I think actually making a wrapper is probably harder than just writing a straight up,

⏹️ ▶️ John like if you had started from scratch, right? But they’ve got the C API that works, It’s called from everywhere that they have to maintain compatibility

⏹️ ▶️ John with it. And you’re asking them to add another abstraction on top of that while maintaining compatibility

⏹️ ▶️ John for the people who go to the low-level API. It’s actually kind of annoying. And I can imagine them

⏹️ ▶️ John not being motivated to do that unless there’s some compelling business reason. And they’ll always have some excuse of why there’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John a compelling business reason.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, there is. I mean, first of all, there is, as I said, for the same reason why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac development should be as easy as possible relatively within reason.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, iOS benefits from quality of apps being good. If there’s a whole bunch of people out there who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are mismanaging memory from these low-level APIs because they don’t know how to do it or they don’t know that they have to do it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then there’s a bunch of apps taking up more memory than they should, and that’s bad for the entire iOS running experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Things like keychain, the easy thing to do is just be insecure and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco write your credentials into a file somewhere. They want you to use keychain for security reasons, but using keychain

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is hard. So you know, by by not making the secure thing easy, after less secure,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so like there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of little reasons that all add up.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s like abstract reasoning, we try to take it to a manager, they want to see a business reason, I think what actually happens

⏹️ ▶️ John is the C API just sits there and gets older and older, and more and more disgusting over the years. And then

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually, it’s like, look, people can’t you can’t make people use this. It’s just like, it’s too old. You got to put

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what happened with QuickTime, right? So QuickTime was a C API, which was amazing at the time it was written. But it was

⏹️ ▶️ John like, I forget when the first version of Quicktime came out, like 1990? It’s pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco old. It was ancient.

⏹️ ▶️ John The movies were the size of one inch by one inch squares. And it was a Cinepak API, or

⏹️ ▶️ John Kodak. And it was just terrible. But there was a C API. And we carry that same

⏹️ ▶️ John C API forward and forward and tons of applications are built on it, and blah, blah. And eventually, it’s just untenable to make people

⏹️ ▶️ John write to that. So they do QtKit, which is an Objective-C wrapper around the gross C API.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s what motivated the wrapper. It’s like, no one wants to use the QuickTime API in

⏹️ ▶️ John C, unless you’ve been using it that way since 1990. No one wants to learn that as a new API. It’s just crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John pants. So they do the wrapper, and then they say what

⏹️ ▶️ John comes right after the wrapper? You know what? That old C API is deprecated. AV foundation for everything, please. Because we just can’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s too disgusting. And maybe AdWordsBook and Keychain aren’t quite at that point yet. But when they reach that point,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe that’s like the canary in the coal mine. First, they give you the Objective-C wrapper with massively more limited

⏹️ ▶️ John functionality that just lets you easily play a damn movie in your Cocoa application, right? I just want to put an NSMovieView,

⏹️ ▶️ John I just want to play a damn movie, I don’t want to see that crazy API, right? And everyone else is like, wait, what about all the umpteen

⏹️ ▶️ John functions that you can do with a straight, oh, that straight C API will still be there, you can use it, and then fast forward two years, it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, that C API is going away. Here’s the new thing, written from the ground up to be different. Although I think AV Foundation

⏹️ ▶️ John is still a C API for performance reasons, but maybe they can make a better wrapper on that. I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ John someone in the chat room can correct me. is it a foundation Objective-C API or a C API? You might

⏹️ ▶️ John know, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I actually don’t know. I’ve never used it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you will.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Either way, I mean, what needs to get worse about the Address Book API before

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we get to that point?

⏹️ ▶️ John It just needs to look dated. Like, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It does. It looks dated now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t know enough about the QuickThin API, but I can imagine it might have dealt with handles, which were a big thing back in the classic

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco back then. Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah. And I don’t know if that’s the case. Again, the chat room is failing me with these. Where is underscore?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Please correct me

⏹️ ▶️ John with the real-time feedback about whether the QuickTime API used handles.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey We’re lost without underscore.

⏹️ ▶️ John Stuff like that, that hypothetically speaking, it’s a concept that doesn’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John make sense anymore in a modern memory-protected, preemptive, multitasking,

⏹️ ▶️ John virtual memory world. And when people look at that, it just seems crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s the point where you’re like, all right, this isn’t just awkward to use and difficult because it doesn’t use nice

⏹️ ▶️ John Objective-C fake name parameters and stuff like that. This has got concepts that have no

⏹️ ▶️ John purpose in the modern world and it makes me jump through hoops for no reason. I’m like, and you’re getting all this stuff OS errors

⏹️ ▶️ John where you get your result back as. Yes. All right.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco To

⏹️ ▶️ John me, this entire world is like, even the nice Objective-C API seem gross to me because you’ve got to use pointers

⏹️ ▶️ John everywhere. And pretend they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pointers. And pretend they’re not pointers. Z Waldowski says,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s Objective-C and pasted the link to the documentation. And it reads as follows. The AV Foundation framework provides an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Objective-C interface for blah, blah, blah, blah,

⏹️ ▶️ John blah. Yeah, but anyway, the C API just got so old and so gross. Even

⏹️ ▶️ John though it was incredibly feature rich, and that’s why it stayed around for so long, because you could do such amazing things with it. But at a certain point, it was

⏹️ ▶️ John like, if you had a legacy application built around QuickTime, your app was amazing. You could do amazing things. But if you wanted to write

⏹️ ▶️ John a new one, no one wanted to dive in and make like a video editing application.

⏹️ ▶️ John Especially if you’re going to do like, not a not professional video, but something you’d imagine

⏹️ ▶️ John seeing on the Mac App Store, hey, easily edit your videos, right? You don’t want to have

⏹️ ▶️ John to throw someone in the deep end of the full fledged old school C API to QuickTime,

⏹️ ▶️ John it would be much easier if there was a more modern API that they could use to do most of that same stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John So they started over with Aby Foundation. And it’s taken them years to get to the point where I, they’re still not at the point.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think where Aby Foundation does anything close with the old QuickTime API did, but they’re clearly moving that direction.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And let’s take a break to thank our first sponsor. It is, can you guys guess?

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco How could they not? They are so awesome.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco Squarespace is everything you need to create an exceptional website. And thanks again to those guys. we host our site

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there and no complaints. They’ve been awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, thanks Squarespace. So before we get away from this kind of low-level murdery,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do we all agree, and I didn’t think about this when I wrote my blog post about what to expect at WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco You have a blog?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, once every two years I’ll write on it. I think I’m up to like a post a month for the last two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John or three. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ John what you get for not skipping anyone’s tweets, whenever Casey tweets about his blog post, I see it

⏹️ ▶️ John because I read them all.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, Marco commented on the last one. He’s just, he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just I did actually have it to catch that one.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, how about that? But anyway, one of the things I didn’t think about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I wanted to ask you guys, are we going to get the equivalent of the var keyword and C sharp

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I forget what the term is for that. But basically inferred type,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey right? Like a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco future declared something, something,

⏹️ ▶️ John C++ auto.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think that’s the same. I believe it is type inference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basic variant.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, type inference is what I was looking for. I believe you’re right. So in other words, you can say, I’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some variable here, and I don’t want to explicitly tell you what type it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Compiler, you’re smart. You figure it out. So I guess my question is actually twofold. Firstly, do we expect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey type inference in Objective-C come Monday? And secondly, what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the crazy awesomeness, and I don’t mean that sarcastically, with the static

⏹️ ▶️ Casey analyzer? I couldn’t think of the word I was looking for. The static analyzer and all that craziness, do we think that we’ll see any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey advancements, kind of maybe not as big, but kind of in the same way we saw ARC?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think there’s any pressing need for type inference. The reason I suggested it is because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John right there sitting in front of them, because they’ve already got a static analyzer. Type inference can be implemented in such a

⏹️ ▶️ John way that it doesn’t actually change anything about the language. It just basically saves you typing. Because if the

⏹️ ▶️ John static analyzer can figure out that that can only possibly be one type that could ever makes sense.

⏹️ ▶️ John It lets you not put the class name two times on the same line when you’re declaring the stupid pointer variable and then

⏹️ ▶️ John calling the class method to make the alloc in it and all that other stuff. Why does

⏹️ ▶️ John it have to be that twice? Can’t it just figure it out? So it’s kind of a nice to have, but

⏹️ ▶️ John the memory image of the program it creates isn’t different, unlike Arc, for example, which actually does create a different

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey actual

⏹️ ▶️ John running program than you would have written manually. So this is an even less invasive

⏹️ ▶️ John change than that. But it’s along the category of stuff like dot syntax, where it’s like, was it was dot

⏹️ ▶️ John syntax like where people saying, oh, I can’t type any more square brackets, I want to do a dot. I mean, maybe some people were like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing is like, if they had, if they sort of had the time to implement it and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John ready, it’ll be there. But if it wasn’t, it’s not like, oh my God, this year we got to have type inference because we’re really getting dinged

⏹️ ▶️ John on not having, they’re not getting dinged on not having type inference. They were getting dinged much more on memory management. So that was more of a pressing

⏹️ ▶️ John need. So I feel like it’s like 50-50 chance. If it’s not there, no one’s going to complain. And if it is there, people

⏹️ ▶️ John are like, oh, that’s nice. Saved me some typing. Pretty cool.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I’m really not trying to troll you. Does Perl have type inference? And if so,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you believe in it?

⏹️ ▶️ John Type inference? You really know nothing about Perl.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I haven’t used Perl in so long. Well, Perl doesn’t even believe in types, does it? It’s all like type unsafe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and crap.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey everything’s a duck. Yeah, that’s right.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Everything is a duck.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John It’s like a

⏹️ ▶️ John ruby. We’re going to get into trouble for speaking loosely about

⏹️ ▶️ John type safe and unsafe and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco statically typed

⏹️ ▶️ John and dynamically typed and strongly typed and weakly typed. And I do not have the definitions of all those terms

⏹️ ▶️ John in front of me, so it’s much easier to talk in more specific terms. But suffice it to say, the type inference

⏹️ ▶️ John is not, as we’re talking about in Objective-C, is basically an irrelevant concept

⏹️ ▶️ John in

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Perl, as

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s basically irrelevant in JavaScript or PHP, for that matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, right. Because everything is very loosely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John typed.

⏹️ ▶️ John A high-level language. You don’t have to worry

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about those little levels.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh, listen to this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco guy. Did you just indirectly compliment PHP?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m just saying, you’re not dealing with pointers in PHP. And you’re also not worried about it. It’s not even like Ruby

⏹️ ▶️ John 2S to get the string version of a thing. You don’t have to do that in PHP, do you? No. No, that’s what I’m saying.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like JavaScript. You just have a value and a variable,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey and you use

⏹️ ▶️ John it in a certain way. And it’s not as bad as JavaScript with the crazy coercions. And you have to use the triple

⏹️ ▶️ John equal to avoid them and all that. JavaScript is gross. But yeah, it’s not relevant.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So someone asked in the chat, it already flew by, why not use ID or ID or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever the crap it’s called everywhere? And that’s something different. When you use

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ID or ID or whatever in Objective-C, that’s saying, hey, I don’t really know what this is. Just figure it out

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at runtime. What type inference does is say, hey, I know that this can only be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one type, just like John was saying earlier. But I don’t want to spend the time typing NS string. I just want to type

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the letters V-A-R. And the compiler will figure out what is this type

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and fill it in for you, not literally speaking, but figuratively speaking. It won’t change your code or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anything. And so that gives you all the benefits of strong typing, of which John doesn’t believe in them because he writes Perl,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it saves you a little bit of time. And that’s very different than using ID. See,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you think it, I mean, is this something like, to me, I’m thinking if I have,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If I’m reading the code, writing it, okay, you can type in the same keyword for everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, that’s interesting. Reading it, though,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do you really want to see a bunch of code that just, you know, a bunch of VAR declarations? Is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey an improvement? Well, that’s exactly what I was… When I started to ask John about this, that’s where I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was going with it, is do you guys even believe in this in the first place?

⏹️ ▶️ John Wouldn’t it not let you do it in a case where there’s any ambiguity? Like, wouldn’t it… I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know how the C++ auto keyword works, or the var keyword in C sharp for that matter, but what I would imagine that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple would bring to Objective-C, assuming it doesn’t just bring the straight port of the auto keyword, because they do have really good C++

⏹️ ▶️ John support at this point, and they could just say, hey, write everything in Objective-C++ and use the auto keyword, done and done. Like, we didn’t have to

⏹️ ▶️ John invent the feature, it’s already there, right? But assuming they bring their own keyword for type inference,

⏹️ ▶️ John my guess would be that it would just not compile if there’s any possible ambiguity. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the place where you would not have any ambiguity is the typical thing where you’re declaring a variable

⏹️ ▶️ John of a particular type and making a new object of that type and sticking it into it right in the same

⏹️ ▶️ John line. And there you just do not need the class name twice. That’s the classic example of like, that’s annoying

⏹️ ▶️ John and stupid. And nobody looking at that is going to be confused by like var foo equals and then class name, a lock

⏹️ ▶️ John and it, but you know, they’re not gonna be confused by that. It’s right there. You know, what’s going into that thing. Right. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so that is the most obvious case. And then you scale down from there to the point where, at a certain point, the static analyzer

⏹️ ▶️ John says, well, I can’t assume what type you’re trying to say here because there’s multiple possible values

⏹️ ▶️ John that would be valid. And maybe you would just not compile that and say, no, you got to explicitly declare that type.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. That’s exactly how it is in C Sharp, where if you don’t say on that same line exactly what this is,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the compiler will puke it up and say, I need some more info, or you need to provide an actual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey type because I can’t just infer what this is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See, and so if you have to have a mix of declared types and automatic types,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t that kind of introduce a lot of bug potential and make code harder to read?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, what’s the bug potential?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess if you have a keyword, if you can declare them without keywords, like you can in most scripting languages,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then that’s rough because then you can like, and there’s rules like, okay, well, if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco misspell a variable name.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco JavaScript. Stuff like that. JavaScript

⏹️ ▶️ John where you could just start typing. Well, PHP

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Perl have this problem too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, but Perl had it first, and Perl had the solution first. And I’m assuming PHP has the same

⏹️ ▶️ John solution as Perl. Does it not? Or you have a mode where you’re not allowed to do that, and everybody uses that mode? Please tell me that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the case. Are you getting a head start?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it’ll throw a notice, which you can catch and treat as an error if you want to, and I do, where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you are using an undeclared variable, it can throw the error. But if you assign

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a variable, that implicitly declares it. But there still is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that risk of, oh, I’m assigning to a variable that I thought was the same one that I used ten lines ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I mistyped it.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t catch that? If you assign to it, no.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, well.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco If you’re testing it or calling

⏹️ ▶️ John something. PHP screwed something else up again. They should have just copied the Perl solution. But anyway, JavaScript hilariously

⏹️ ▶️ John copied the Perl solution. Didn’t we talk about this in a past episode? Hilariously copied the Perl solution. Probably. Like, the Perl solution is

⏹️ ▶️ John they added a pragma, or you type use strict, and then it turns it into the good mode where it’s like if you make

⏹️ ▶️ John any typo, it’s like I don’t know what variable you’re talking about. I will not, I would refuse to create a new variable that you have not declared.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like C or any other language in that mode, right? And in JavaScript,

⏹️ ▶️ John which works the other crazy way, they said we want that too, but we can’t change the language because it’s in a bazillion browsers.

⏹️ ▶️ John So in JavaScript, if you just make a string literal that you put double quote or single quote or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John use space strict and then close that string literal and put a semicolon, no assignment, no nothing, just like

⏹️ ▶️ John that string literal in your JavaScript code, most modern browsers

⏹️ ▶️ John will see that, interpret it as, oh, you want to go into that strict mode that’s kind of like Perl’s use strict. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John hilarious that it uses the exact same phrase, use space strict all lowercase, right? And then it will go into that mode.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sometimes it will, sometimes it won’t. And for browsers that don’t understand that, they just see a useless

⏹️ ▶️ John use of a string literal in void context to use Perl parlance, right? And so it’s valid

⏹️ ▶️ John code. It compiles. You’re not you don’t choke the other browsers, but if you’re using a modern browser that helps you out

⏹️ ▶️ John You get the benefits of you know of working in that environment. So Yeah I mean JavaScript

⏹️ ▶️ John has an excuse because it’s really old and again made by one guy under time pressure and didn’t think he was gonna Be creating the

⏹️ ▶️ John next language for the next millennium, right? But yeah, I would

⏹️ ▶️ John never imagine that a language with so much bondage and discipline is objective C

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever allow That type of thing where you just type a variable name and it springs into existence

⏹️ ▶️ John It would always need some sort of word whether that be var auto or whatever board Apple would make up

⏹️ ▶️ John for it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you want to talk about? Yeah, I was gonna say more

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey things talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Don’t let me steer this conversation. We’re going off into the weeds. It’s like we’re nerds or something

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not good

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco If you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really think about it, you know We as a group have kind of made a podcasting career out of going off topic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s very true. But in an attempt to stay on topic, John, what were you thinking was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey coming over the keynote in WWDC?

⏹️ ▶️ John So the blog post that I was too lazy to write this week that everyone’s

⏹️ ▶️ John podcast about, yes, this is the pattern. Sometimes the blog post comes first, I suppose. Is about

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware. Now we’ve had the extra week of time and it’s like the Haswell-based laptops,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? they assuming Apple decides to put them in the keynote, which I imagine they would because why

⏹️ ▶️ John not they did last year and the new ones are coming whether they talked about them the key in order or not.

⏹️ ▶️ John The thing that I hadn’t realized really hadn’t thought about actually was like, like, last year

⏹️ ▶️ John and for since last year, people have been asking me, should I get a redneck MacBook Pro and I

⏹️ ▶️ John or a MacBook Air and I’ve been telling people, if you can wait, wait, because the Ares

⏹️ ▶️ John have such a terrible screen, especially compared to the Retinas, but the Retinas,

⏹️ ▶️ John the integrated GPU, the one that’s on the CPU, the Intel graphics one,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just barely able to handle that screen. And I think it’s a shame, it’s like a first-generation thing, and that will be solved by

⏹️ ▶️ John Haswell, which is coming and will have much better integrated graphics, right? So that’s what I’ve been telling people, you can wait, wait, because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re gonna revise the Ares and presumably you’ll have a nicer screen and faster and all that stuff. And the Retinas,

⏹️ ▶️ John well there’s also the image retention issue, which I hope was being solved by them picking different screen supplier or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the next ones are gonna have you know faster CPUs, better battery life because of the Haswell power savings, but

⏹️ ▶️ John also a much better integrated GPU. Now what I hadn’t been thinking about when I’ve been telling people that

⏹️ ▶️ John is what if they ship them with just the integrated GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John and no external GPU anymore? Because I’ve been thinking okay so the integrated GPU is gonna be better and it’s gonna finally

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to comfortably handle a retina display but of course, when you load up a game or something,

⏹️ ▶️ John I assume, oh, they’ll just use the discrete GPU for the game, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco In theory. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John after reading the Anandtech review of this thing, you can see that the integrated GPU is still slightly

⏹️ ▶️ John slower than the current discrete GPU that they use in the Retina Pros, but that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John could probably get away with not having a discrete GPU in the 15-inch MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John would love that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Just using the integrated, because the power savings would be huge, right? And you know, just like

⏹️ ▶️ John it would be a cost saving, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Heat, noise.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, right. But battery, man.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Everything gets

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Cost. But on the other hand, wouldn’t you feel bad if you bought a

⏹️ ▶️ John Retina MacBook Pro this year and it didn’t play a game at as high a frame rate as the one you could have bought last

⏹️ ▶️ John year at the same time?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, we don’t play games.

⏹️ ▶️ John We have Macs. Some people do, like, you want to run Diablo III in that crazy

⏹️ ▶️ John Retina resolution, right? I mean, it’s not that it’s a gaming laptop or anything like that. It’s just it would be weird.

⏹️ ▶️ John Wouldn’t it be weird for a year later, the new top of the line Apple laptop would have a GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John that is ever so slightly slower than the previous one? And I’m sure that Apple, see, here’s the way you can go with this.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think Apple could whip up some benchmark BS that makes the integrated

⏹️ ▶️ John one look slightly faster than the discrete. Because there are tests, if you look at the Anandtech thing, there are tests

⏹️ ▶️ John where it gets like 10% or 7% faster. But overall, it’s mostly slightly

⏹️ ▶️ John slower. So Apple could do the selective thing where they just pick their benchmark and say, hey, look, and we ditched the

⏹️ ▶️ John discrete GPU. It’s just got an integrated one. And look, it’s actually faster than the previous discrete one. And they’ll show some

⏹️ ▶️ John single or small double-digit gain on the carefully chosen benchmarks.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, another thing they could do is what they did, I think, about three years ago. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco introduced a 15-inch model at like $1699, something like that. it was significantly below

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the previous 1999 minimum. It was a low-end 15-inch MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that didn’t have a discrete GPU. It only had the Intel one. And all the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 15-inches, the higher-priced ones, all had discrete GPUs. And everyone’s like, oh, they don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to have multiple SKUs or multiple different. Well, they’ve done it before. They do it for other things. If it makes sense

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they can do it, if they did this, maybe they would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep the discrete GPU in the most expensive configuration but then in the in a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cheapest one then you know leave it out and have and and you know if I was buying I’d actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy that one because it would be cooler running you know longer battery life

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything else and and like the the whole dual GPU thing has always been buggy in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco OS like it oh yeah if you if you use something like like I believe it’s Cody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Krieger’s graphics card status program. It’ll tell you like you know which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one’s in use and it’ll it has a mode where you can attempt to force it to use one or the other and it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always work because of weird OS things but it doesn’t just use the discrete GPU for games.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It has some kind of conditions where I think if something uses layer-backed views

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or core animation in a certain way then it automatically turns the GPU on if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that app is running at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that That includes things like iCal, I mean, really commonly used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John apps.

⏹️ ▶️ John They tweaked it to not go to the discrete GPU quite as easily.

⏹️ ▶️ John They made changes to the OS of, say, used to be, right? Like, if you did almost anything involving applications that were

⏹️ ▶️ John not impressive, it was like, oh, sorry, if you touch this framework at all, we’re going to the GPU. But then they

⏹️ ▶️ John kept moving it back. Say, well, the integrated GPU can handle that. OK, well, and what they’re trying to do is trade off

⏹️ ▶️ John of jerky scrolling and bad drawing performance. They know it could be

⏹️ ▶️ John better if it was on the discrete, trying to balance power. That’s what I was saying about that machine being comparable. Yeah, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John right. That dual GPU thing has never quite worked right, and it always leads to lots of weird drawing glitches.

⏹️ ▶️ John People have retinas, as we were talking about. I was scrolling through Safari. That could be retina bugs, and it also could be the GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John switching.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think about the customer experience. If you don’t know about this switching, and if you don’t know which apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are causing it, then you have a situation where your laptop will will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seemingly randomly get like 30% less battery life on just on some days or when you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing certain thing and it’s really hard to tell why that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John or if you

⏹️ ▶️ John background that never writes the discrete GPU be turned

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right like in my case like I was always I cal doing that you know and which is annoying or or Twitter or tweet bot like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they almost all almost so many apps do this now including so many Apple apps that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re multitasking at all you probably have something keeping that discrete GPU running. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’ll end up like having these these bursts of time where you’ll get dramatically less battery life

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there’s there’s no obvious answer to the most people as to why that is. And that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just that’s terrible. It makes Apple look bad. It makes the customers unhappy. You know, everything runs too hot. I mean, that’s why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think like the there would be a performance trade off for certain conditions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like games by going integrated only. But in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost every other way, that would actually be better.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. And to go back just a quick step, another great example is because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think that there’s some sort of multiplexer in between the graphics cards

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and the display port such that if you have an external display connected of any capacity,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re running on that discrete GPU. You’re sitting at your desk and you’ve been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using your computer for hours and nothing’s gone wrong and you have half your battery left and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you go to do a presentation and Suddenly you have an external monitor that being your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey projector hooked up to your computer and your battery power just disappears instantly right and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s because the of the multiplexer in front of the DisplayPort or something along those

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco lines and it doesn’t need to be that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way because The 13-inch and the airs don’t have discrete GPUs and output to external monitors just fine

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, see, with the Haswell chips, a lot of these problems will be lessened severely

⏹️ ▶️ John because they can do almost everything on the integrated now. They won’t have to go to the integrated just because they have an external

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU. They won’t have to go to the integrated when you do something fancy. So you can basically, or won’t have to go to the discrete,

⏹️ ▶️ John rather. They’ll be able to stick to the integrated GPU almost all the time, except for perhaps things

⏹️ ▶️ John like games. So that’s why I’m coming with the question. totally an Apple move

⏹️ ▶️ John to just say, sorry, no more discrete GPU. And that means that this machine,

⏹️ ▶️ John either Apple’s gonna say is only slightly faster in graphics performance in the previous one or is on par,

⏹️ ▶️ John but hey, and they’ll super duper tout like, oh, look at the power set, like all the other things we were talking about, right? Isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John it amazing, right? So that’s definitely one way they could go, I would be a little bit disappointed in that. But I can see

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple pitch, I can see the slides in my head of how they’re gonna sell that. And people will be like, oh, it’s not so bad, right? Because it

⏹️ ▶️ John would be I mean, For almost every person who’s not doing 3D graphics or games, it would be

⏹️ ▶️ John a clear win. I never cared about the frame rate of some game. All I know is my battery life

⏹️ ▶️ John is better. I don’t have to deal with GPU switching. Everything’s great. But the thing you said, Marco, about, all right, so maybe there’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John one top-end model where they put the discrete GPU in there for the gamers or whatever. And then the question

⏹️ ▶️ John is, what is that discrete GPU? The other one was a 650M or

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco something. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think the 750M is out or something like that. I could also see them going that route.

⏹️ ▶️ John better than us because they never give us the breakdowns. But say they produce a line like that. What is the breakdown

⏹️ ▶️ John between the ones with the discrete and the ones with it? Like, I start to think of the guys who opt for the discrete

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU being kind of like the people who would buy the Mac Pro. Like, we think we’re super important, and we think it’s awesome

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything. But if it’s like 0.05% of the customers, it’s really difficult for Apparel

⏹️ ▶️ John to keep doing that year after year. But the thing that makes me feel a little bit better is the, remember the super high res 15

⏹️ ▶️ John inch, where you get the 15 inch with the high res screen? Yep,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s what I’m looking

⏹️ ▶️ John at. They did that for a long time. And I have to think that almost nobody bought that stupid

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, like the matte screen and the high res. The only people who buy that are people like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco us.

⏹️ ▶️ John Casey

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and I both did. Right, and know what I mean? Exactly,

⏹️ ▶️ John people who like Mac Pros. But I’ve been in lots of Apple stores, and I have never

⏹️ ▶️ John known anyone who is not a super nerd who opted for that screen. Because you say, this one is more expensive. It’s matte,

⏹️ ▶️ John which doesn’t look as shiny as shiny, right? And everyone’s like, why would you get the one that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, uglier, quote unquote, uglier? and I have to squint to see it, and it’s more expensive, I’ll take that one, please.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, that’s gotta be what everybody picks, so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you’d be surprised. I mean, granted, I am talking about nerds, but everyone in my office that has a MacBook Pro has one of those.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m looking at two within arm’s reach right now, my personal one as well as my work one. I mean, they are unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great machines if you’re not gonna go Retina, and they were the best of the 15-inch MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pros up until the Retina MacBook Pros. So any of those who are, you know, checkbox

⏹️ ▶️ Casey nerds, you know, who said, ooh, I want the best, darn it, then they would get these. And they are unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey great machines, excepting the discrete GPU Agida.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so this is my fun litmus test for this

⏹️ ▶️ John keynote is when they, I’m assuming they’ll introduce this line of things, to look to see, will any of them have a discrete

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU? And if they don’t, what does that say about, I mean, it gets back to the whole Mac Pro thing. Like, what

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of signals is Apple sending about the kind of company it is? Is it the kind of company that has decided

⏹️ ▶️ John that it just doesn’t care about top end performance anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it considers battery life and suitability for like the 80%

⏹️ ▶️ John or 90% or 99.5% or whatever percent it is to just be

⏹️ ▶️ John so much more important than everything else. So I’ve got my fingers crossed for at least one model

⏹️ ▶️ John still with this screen GPU, but I think I’d be mostly okay for this to be a transition

⏹️ ▶️ John year where they go integrated only because the next round of chips, Like maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel will continue dedicating 65% or more of its CPU

⏹️ ▶️ John space to graphics. And at 14 nanometers, that gives you a pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John darn good GPU on the CPU. And so by that point, you’re like, all right, well, discrete

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU, how barbaric, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So now keeping with hardware, well, Marco, do you have anything to add on laptops?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I think that covers it. I mean, I’m looking forward to what they do. I don’t you know, I currently own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the cheapest model of the current which is the first 15 inch retina MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and I use it as a travel and and upstairs computer and so I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t use it a lot like I’m not using it constantly I’m not pushing its boundaries

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I don’t plan to upgrade at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right so with with that in mind gentlemen it is time will there be a Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something equivalent thereof?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Before we get into this, let me do our second sponsor because

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac Pro or equivalent? Yes, no, maybe.

⏹️ ▶️ John Announce the WNBC? I’d say no.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Are we gonna see it this year then?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes. We’ll see something this year. Tim Cook said

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it. Says

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no enthusiasm.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I’m reading all the stories. I read Marco’s thing. Like, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m prepared to be, like my judgment for the Mac Pro thing is no matter how well

⏹️ ▶️ John suited it is to my particular needs, which I know what my needs are, I don’t know whether I met them or not. But regardless of

⏹️ ▶️ John whether I am disappointed in it or not, what I want to see from the company, what I think I need to see from the company, is

⏹️ ▶️ John this thing better be faster than all the existing Macs. That sounds stupid. It’s like, why would they even make it if it’s not?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m serious. I want it to be not just like, oh, and it’s 5% faster than an iMac. No, I want it to

⏹️ ▶️ John crush the iMac. I want it to be ridiculous. In every way, disk I, memory,

⏹️ ▶️ John CPU speed, number of cores, everything. It should just crush all the other Macs. Because why

⏹️ ▶️ John even have this product if it’s not gonna do that? And if to make something that crushes all the other Macs, you have to make

⏹️ ▶️ John something with no internal drive bays that just uses like the equivalent of Marco’s crazy PCI

⏹️ ▶️ John Express SSD card, fine, whatever you gotta do to make this thing ridiculously faster. When Macworld puts up

⏹️ ▶️ John little graphs showing how this computer compares, I don’t want to see just a bunch of little lines that

⏹️ ▶️ John looks like your cell phone signal strength and the last one is a little bit longer. I want to see the last one be much

⏹️ ▶️ John longer, you know? In every possible way. the purpose of this machine. And I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John so picky to say like, Oh, you have to make it exactly to my needs. Because I like cheap internal drives, because I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John cheap. So you have to have room for five internal drives or whatever, like, if you have to make it with no internal drives, and it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John like a sealed box, but it’s insanely fast, fine, then do that. So that’s my wish for the Mac Pro at this

⏹️ ▶️ John point, I’m into the bargaining stage.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think there’s a few things to consider here. You know, one is that when people are thinking about what to do with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac Pro, and what the future might hold, people always throw out these weird ideas like, oh, they’re going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have, you’re going to be able to daisy chain multiple Mac minis with Thunderbolt and combine all the computing power,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like all this, people have these crazy ideas. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the fact is,

⏹️ ▶️ John like I said on the Ad Hoc

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Progress, you’re gonna have a cell

⏹️ ▶️ John processor inside your TV and make your games look better. Exactly. Get back

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco to me on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. And so, but you know, the reality is the Mac Pro is a Xeon workstation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco runs stock Intel CPUs on a almost stock Intel motherboard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, there’s not a lot of like custom Apple low-level engineering going into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this. It’s mostly assembling stock Intel parts with stock Intel chipsets with, you know, some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco modifications for Apple, but not a whole lot. And so I don’t think, you know, I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very easy to just look at what Intel has available and that will roughly tell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco us what the possibilities are here. Because that’s how the Mac Pro has always worked, and it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem like a massively growing industry for Apple to dump a whole bunch of custom engineering into.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, see, like, Intel has custom engineering resources, too. Remember back when Larrabee was still going on

⏹️ ▶️ John at Intel, right? And the rumors I heard was that Apple was totally into that. Like, oh, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel, you want to take on the GPU world by making tons of little cheap x86 cores and making a GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John out of that? We’re all over that, because we’ve got all this OpenCL stuff that we think would work great with that.

⏹️ ▶️ John and like, yeah, well, you know, I mean, that project came to nothing, but that’s an example of where Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John may have this notion of doing something weird and custom. And Apple would be like, yeah, we can do that because

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll build the machine around this crazy thing. So I don’t think it’s inconceivable that Apple could come up with a machine

⏹️ ▶️ John that uses some crazy thing that Intel made. And it’s like a collaboration where no one else was telling

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel, we want this crazy thing because the rest of the industry does want, just give us CPUs, give us chipsets, we’ll put them into

⏹️ ▶️ John our servers, we’ll sell them. Like they just want straight up stuff. But Apple has an appetite, or used to have an appetite

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, for weird stuff. Even like on the MacBook Air. Can you make us a weird shrunken version of whatever that

⏹️ ▶️ John Core 2 Duo was? Because without this weird shrunken version, we can’t make the original MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Air.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was just a custom package, though.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I know, but it’s a- It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John that much work. I mean, Larrabee was a project Intel was doing. It wasn’t like they were doing it because of Apple. They had their own

⏹️ ▶️ John reasons to do it. But Apple saw it and said, we can make a machine around that. And so apparently, the reward was that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John had them in the labs, and they were fiddling around with it. It was the time they were making OpenCL, I think, which is a great fit for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So they’d work on the drivers, see how it’s going to work out. Had that come to fruition, it would have produced a very

⏹️ ▶️ John interesting machine. And I think there’s still room for that kind of collaboration where I don’t think it’s out of the question

⏹️ ▶️ John that Intel could want to make something independently of Apple. And Intel bring

⏹️ ▶️ John it to Apple, and Apple be excited by it and say, we can make a machine around that. If we’re all looking for some crazy conspiracy

⏹️ ▶️ John theory of why has it been three years, like, oh, we’ve got this great thing, you really like it. Is it because they couldn’t decide for 2 and 1⁄2 years?

⏹️ ▶️ John and in the last six months they slapped something together, that’s a possibility. The other possibility is they’re working on something weird

⏹️ ▶️ John and crazy and it took this long for it to come out because Intel’s thing was late or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, we don’t know at this point, but I would be perfectly happy with Apple trying to do something

⏹️ ▶️ John daring in cooperation with Intel. And I don’t think it’s out of the question for us to see something that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John weird, but you’re right, it would much more likely, at this point, as I just said to Lex

⏹️ ▶️ John today, at this point, even the stupid boring thing of just taking Intel’s latency on and sticking it in a

⏹️ ▶️ John box and selling it to us, that would be fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all people wanted last year. When we were all upset, that’s all we wanted, just take the new CPUs and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco give an update like you always have.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like the super boring, obvious thing at this point would just be like, that’s great,

⏹️ ▶️ John yes, fine, go with that. But I still like to think if we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John in the absence of any actual product, this is our last chance to fantasize about something really weird and interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s worth considering, you know, they skipped a generation for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some reason. There was something that made it worth skipping a generation, and maybe it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was Intel’s weird stuff. Well, I mean, come on, probably not.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Maybe it was like Intel’s weird

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff with Thunderbolt and the Xeon chipsets, because they couldn’t, last year, there was some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good stuff on AnonTech about this, where basically last year, that server chipset,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there was no good way to put Thunderbolt on it, And there still kind of isn’t a good way to put Thunderbolt on a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Xeon board that has a PCI Express GPU on a card. Like there’s still no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way to route the video through it or something like that. There’s some relatively minor problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that prevents Thunderbolt from working the way it should on a board that has a slotted video card.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that also means they couldn’t convince Intel to like, can you just fix that for us? Like I know we’re the only customer

⏹️ ▶️ John who wants it, but could you just do that for us? And like the answer for the volumes of the Mac Pro from Intel is probably like, yeah, no.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, because they don’t sell enough of them. So this is what has me interested but concerned,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that it does seem like, from what we’re hearing, even from what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has said, it seems like this isn’t just, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we skipped one Xeon generation, and then the next generation, which is going to be this fall,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re just going to update the CPUs and call it a day. This sounds like they’re going to be doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a more significant change than that, but I’m kind of worried as to what that change might be. And,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I think, so, okay, so my thesis earlier on has always been like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I linked to this in the post, like, if you try to scale down the Mac Pro, if you try to remove any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any part of it that currently makes it big and beefy and expensive, say you switch to consumer CPUs,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s usually the one that geeks say you should do, oh, just switch to Ivy Bridge, Haswell, you know, switch to whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever desktop CPU family is current. And then that’ll make it way cheaper. And then you can make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it small and everything and all those things are true but then if you if you go away from Xeons and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you go to the desktop CPUs then you have way fewer RAM slots a lower RAM ceiling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no support for ECC so you know it’s you have slightly more chances of things going a little bit wacky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially later on in life and and so you know it’s like it wrecks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some things if you

⏹️ ▶️ John fewer cores and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John cash in the past too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right and and like video editors who are like people who are like scientific computing people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who actually buy today’s dual socket Mac pros for like five grand and up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you cut the socket count in half you cut the performance of parallelizable tasks in half

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to most of us like me and you it doesn’t really matter like I my current one is the single

⏹️ ▶️ Marco socket six core because that just made the most sense when I bought it but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a lot of people like they don’t want to give up a give up a socket, they would buy a four socket

⏹️ ▶️ Marco model if it was available. Because it actually matters a lot to them if something renders

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in half the time. And so that’s not to be taken lightly to just remove half the cores out of one of these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco computers and it affects the RAM limit and stuff like that. So there’s other problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with that. Then there’s people who say, oh, you should remove the card slots.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, that ruins a lot of different things in small ways. It ruins people who want to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more than one GPU to have a bunch of monitors. That’s surprisingly common, actually.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And yeah, you can say, oh, you can use Thunderbolt, Daisy Chain, but then you’re adding hacks and that’s more limited

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stuff like that, and you can’t use half your monitors that exist in the world and stuff like that. So there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these edge cases with the Mac Pro. You said this before. There are so many edge cases

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of every other Apple computer says no in some way. No, you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have this. No, you can’t expand this. this is limited to this the Mac Pro only says no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to affordability and size constraints and power usage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro basically covers all of the edge cases in in one computer and and if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you changed any of its fundamental attributes you would cut off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a large slice of those edge cases and so and and there’s certain things like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know you can’t make it cheaper without without not using Xeons anymore, but then that breaks through the things. You can’t really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it smaller without removing some card support or removing a bunch of base,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that’s the reason why people buy these things. And if you make it a lot smaller, then you’re still running hot chips, so you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need different fans, and they might be louder. There’s all these trade-offs that make you realize

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the Mac Pro today is the way it is for really good reasons, and that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you dramatically change something about it, you’re going to anger a lot of people,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or you’re going to make it suddenly not be possible for a lot of people to use it for what they need to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know why this bit of information has not seemed to penetrate the fanboy

⏹️ ▶️ John community, but I was surprised by the fact that you wrote this into your article again today and had people

⏹️ ▶️ John respond to it. The fact that you can’t have high-end GPUs hanging off of Thunderbolt. We’re

⏹️ ▶️ John going to go completely through the Thunderbolt 1 error with that never dying. And every single form, it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, don’t worry. It’ll just be a bunch of boxes connected by Thunderbolt. And someone will say, oh, you can’t have a high-end video

⏹️ ▶️ John card in there. So why? And it doesn’t, that’s, it seems like that piece of wisdom

⏹️ ▶️ John should have eventually penetrated the community. But that’s a non-starter, the daisy chain type

⏹️ ▶️ John box thing. Like, there are some things you can externalize in daisy chain. Like, the gimme one is optical,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Optical slow, that could have been outside the computer forever. Guaranteed, the next Mac Pro’s not going

⏹️ ▶️ John to have my optical inside it, Unless the case continues to be huge, in which case we’ll fine put them in there because

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, whatever. But like, you can externalize an optical and you have not lost anything. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John opticals are so cheap, and they’re so slow, there’s no problem with the buses or anything like that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John almost everything else you externalize, you lose something. Externalizing video cards? Well, you can’t do it with current

⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt. Even with the new Thunderbolt, I don’t think it’s fast as like whatever the 16x PCI Express lines.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it would be able to do that, I don’t know. But certainly not with the existing Thunderbolt, you just can’t, right? Externalizing

⏹️ ▶️ John drives, well, you can go to eSATA. Do they have 6-gigabit eSATA? They probably

⏹️ ▶️ John do. I think so. But that’s like, you need some sort of enclosure, and you have these things dangling

⏹️ ▶️ John around.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco And you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a desk covered in wires and enclosures and power bricks and all these. You have a million different things all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John your desk.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s more expensive if you, oh, well, I’m going to use Thunderbolt home external drives. That’s fast. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John good luck finding, you can buy a drive mechanism, or you could buy like 1 eighth

⏹️ ▶️ John of an external

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Thunderbolt. Right, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buy an empty Thunderbolt enclosure for like $200 or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Twice the price of the actual drive, right? And video cards, like I said, you can’t externalize those. And

⏹️ ▶️ John the CPU sockets, you’re not going to have one of those in another box. I think once they come out with the new interconnects, like

⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt, everything will be connected by Thunderbolt. The second CPU will be a Thunderbolt cable away. No, it’s not magic. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just a bus, and there’s only limited bandwidth, and you can’t, right? And so maybe someday we will get

⏹️ ▶️ John to that modular point, but we’re definitely not there yet. And even if we were,

⏹️ ▶️ John what would be the motivation for the modularization in that way? Because it would just create a big, hairy mess. And Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not the company that wants you to have 800 boxes, unless they could be connected wirelessly or something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We still have power adapters everywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ John Fast forward 25 years, and maybe we’ll have a bunch of Mac and Mini-like things that all talk to each other and

⏹️ ▶️ John provide a magical computing experience. But we’re not there yet. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know what this new Mac Pro is going to be. Well, the other thing, too, is if they’re going to make any of these dramatic changes to the Mac Pro?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What’s in it for them and what’s in it for us? Who’s demanding these changes?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac Pro owners, we already keep the computer on the floor next to our desk or under our desk.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We don’t really need it to be much smaller. I don’t really care what size it is because I don’t see it. It’s under my desk.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Size is not really that important. Power usage is not that important either. pulled into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the wall and electricity in most places where you could afford a Mac Pro is not that expensive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you know it’s it’s not and if any you know these are computers made for people who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are doing important things with them and doing demanding things like what you know is there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really that much demand to shrink it or to make it you know cooler running

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or anything like that I just don’t see it and and so so obviously you know if they’re gonna make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something dramatically different. That sounds for the most part, if it really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is going to be dramatically different, it sounds like for existing Mac Pro fans it’s going to be significantly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco worse in some way. So the question is, is there going to be something better to make up for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that? Because Apple, what they’re saying, Tim Cook said, oh you’ll be very pleased by it next year,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then that thing I linked to today, the guy said you’re going to be so happy you waited. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seems like Apple is really happy with this. Apple’s really saying this is awesome and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John have to wonder like…

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t you disbelieve them when they say that? Like, I’m not going to be happy with it. As soon as you say that, it makes me know that I’m not going to be happy with it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, I’m suspicious.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because I know that you… because like we now believe that the people behind… people in charge of deciding anything about

⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro do not have our interests at heart because they’ve left us out in the cold for three years, right? So now we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John already decided like if you cared about my needs, we would not be in this situation. So clearly you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John and this is just… this is kind of like about how the Final Cut Pro people felt of like, I think you’re going to love the new Final

⏹️ ▶️ John Cut Pro and they’re like, I can’t get my work done because you didn’t support X, Y, and Z. And even though you think we shouldn’t be using

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever that stupid file format was that Apple didn’t want to support, I actually needed to do my work.

⏹️ ▶️ John So screw you, Apple. You know, it did eventually have to go back and add support for that, whatever that thing was that I can’t remember the name

⏹️ ▶️ John of. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that was the type of

⏹️ ▶️ John thing where Apple was totally on board. And I was mostly on board with it as a non-video editor saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, someone’s got to drive this stuff forward. But if you just need to get your work done and Apple comes out with a new version of Final Cut Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like a non-starter for you. I that’s great Apple, but I can’t use that program you you have made something That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not good for me But Apple was telling those people we think you’re really gonna look like if they had told before Final Cut

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro 10 came out They were like you guys man. Just trust me the next version of Final Cut Pro. You’re just gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John love it It’s gonna be awesome and an Apple I think probably really believe that and it arrived and those

⏹️ ▶️ John people did not love it right right or wrong you said they were wrong To not love it or that you know

⏹️ ▶️ John Doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong that the fact is that Apple told those people people you are going to love this program and they

⏹️ ▶️ John and they didn’t love it and so I feel like we’re exactly in that situation where Apple’s telling us we’re gonna love it and we’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco we’re just not when I’m a little wrong we may

⏹️ ▶️ John be wrong and maybe that you know you should love it because that’s the future maybe it is the future but I don’t I just don’t feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like we’re gonna love it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah and I think you know Final Cut Pro 10 like you you think you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hope at least I hope at least I hope that Apple learned from that that you know they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their arrogance of saying, we’re going to take things away and you’re going to like the result better because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just because we think it’s better. That has worked a lot of the time. And a lot of times they’re right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But that only works to a point. And at some point, you cross the line and you just anger

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people. And or you make it so that you can’t do your work anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John That only

⏹️ ▶️ John works if you can do like, we don’t care about existing customers. This is going to be better for new customers.

⏹️ ▶️ John New customers are the future. There’s more of them. If that’s true, you’re fine. If it’s not true, all you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John left with is your old customers who are pissed at you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, exactly. And so I feel like the Mac Pro, it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco similar market. In many ways, it overlaps the market of people who use Final Cut. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I worry, I’m reassured that I hope Apple learn from Final Cut Pro X

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and from it being relatively a debacle and costing them a lot of customers,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think. But also, so the Mac Pro, it’s a lot of the same people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with a lot of the same problems, and it’s a very similar situation, where if Apple dramatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco changes this in some way they think is better, it better really be better in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the customer’s eyes, otherwise a lot of people are gonna be angry, and it’s gonna be,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, Apple can tolerate losing some small percentage of an audience, you’re right,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to gain a bigger one, but the Mac Pro, like the only people who buy this thing are people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are needy and picky like us, or like professionals who do video editing and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Those are the people who buy these things. This is not a mass market product. So I feel like you can, it’s a lot like the enterprise computing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco market. You can be that aggressive with removing features and changing things around in the consumer market.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But once you get into things that people need to do their jobs, our needs are a lot less flexible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so when you start messing with things, you run a much bigger risk. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope they learn from that, but I don’t know if they did.

⏹️ ▶️ John I want to reiterate, though, that I really do believe that Final Cut Pro X was the correct

⏹️ ▶️ John move, and it is better than the old one. It’s just the transition period that’s difficult. And that’s why I said before that

⏹️ ▶️ John I will actually be OK with them producing something new

⏹️ ▶️ John that does not satisfy the needs of existing customers, provided the reason they did it was because

⏹️ ▶️ John we decided that if we totally ignored the needs of existing customers and went off in this new direction,

⏹️ ▶️ John we can make a computer that is dramatically more powerful, dramatically faster. In the same way that Apple believed, and I

⏹️ ▶️ John think is actually the case, that Final Cut Pro, by leaving behind all that legacy cruft, lets

⏹️ ▶️ John them do things that they would not be able to do. Like the demo that they gave of Final Cut Pro X, as someone

⏹️ ▶️ John who is not a professional video editor, I watched that, and I’d used the old version of Final Cut. And I said, wow,

⏹️ ▶️ John this new version is much better for the reasons that they stated that it is. It’s just the people who needed to get their job done that were

⏹️ ▶️ John pissed off, right? So I’m willing to say, fine, you’re gonna make a machine that is unsuitable according to my current leads,

⏹️ ▶️ John that is unsuitable for a large number of current Mac Pro customers, but it’s like super

⏹️ ▶️ John awesomely fast and you can do amazing things that you could never do like if they traded it for something, right? And

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like in Final Cut Pro they did trade it for something. They traded a program that their existing customers would like

⏹️ ▶️ John for a better way to edit video. That may have been a dumb trade business-wise or whatever, but I think

⏹️ ▶️ John like time is on their side with that type of transition, assuming they continue to develop the product. And I’m okay with

⏹️ ▶️ John that with the Mac Pro. What I don’t want to see is them trade away all the stuff their existing customers want and

⏹️ ▶️ John just give me a monitorless iMac. And then I’d be like, screw you. Who cares? It’s like a faster

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Mac mini, or

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac mini with a good GPU in it. That is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco just helping

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody. So Final Cut Pro, even though I just

⏹️ ▶️ John slammed it, I think is an example of them doing the right thing and getting punished

⏹️ ▶️ John for it by their existing customers. But it’s much easier to fix software after

⏹️ ▶️ John you ship it. They went back to Final Cut Pro X, And they said, OK, so I think it was edit decision list. So you need support for that?

⏹️ ▶️ John OK, we’ll put it in. All right, so you need this? OK, we’ll put it in. Like, they did

⏹️ ▶️ John go back, right? But you cannot release a point release that includes more PCI slots, right? So

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what they’re going to do. It’s much harder when it comes to hardware.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, I’m a little worried.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What do you think about the retina possibility?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think you were right, that it sure looks like it’s borderline, right? Like maybe you could

⏹️ ▶️ John squeeze it in this year and maybe it would be like, just barely get it under

⏹️ ▶️ John the wire, but it would sure be better to wait till next year, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like I’m thinking, you know, from the panel point of view, Apple obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has really good connections to the panel manufacturers and can get things before everybody else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can look at the original 27 inch iMac, for an example of that. And when the 27 inch iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first came out and it had the same horizontal resolution as the 30 inch monitor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and cost a few hundred dollars less, I believe, right? Or like $200

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John more. Yeah, it was much

⏹️ ▶️ John cheaper, but it had lower res and 30 inch fans were pissed at that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it only cut off a little bit off the bottom. It went from 1610 to 1609. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it was this panel that-

⏹️ ▶️ John 30 inch was 2500 something. 2560 by 1600 versus 2560 by 1440.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, the current 27 inch is 1920 by 1200.

⏹️ ▶️ John No. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a size off. That’s the 21. Anyway, so when this thing came out, it had like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same resolution roughly, a very close resolution as the 30 inch monitor that actually cost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost the same amount as the entire iMac. It was like you were buying this awesome monitor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and getting a free computer to loop to the back of it. That was glossy too. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Never

⏹️ ▶️ John forget, Matt Displays forever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so, you know, the at the time it seemed impossible, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people like me who were geeks about this stuff like how can Apple afford to put this ridiculously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expensive panel in a computer that only costs that much and what it turned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out that they had a good deal with the manufacturers. They were like the first ones to get a panel of those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specs and in that size and and they got a really great price on it for a while

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s how they were able to do it. And so, you know, today it comes out, or the other day it came out that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who was it, Asus? Somebody had a… Asus, not Asus. Asus had a 31.5 inch 4K panel, which is 3840 by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something. And at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my sitting resolution, that is officially Retina by Steve Jobs’ old definition of it. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at my sitting distance, rather. And so, you know, a Retina 4K panel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now exists, and they say the price for Asus’ monitor is going to be like $4,000.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, what if Apple has some really good deal with somebody to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco similar panels, to make them 4K panels, and what if they can sell it for $3,000? Do

⏹️ ▶️ John you think it’s much harder to get that deal when you don’t put it in an iMac, though? Because if you just put it in the Mac Pro,

⏹️ ▶️ John not that I’m saying they wouldn’t do it because they can’t get a great deal on it or whatever, because they have no problem charging obscene amounts for

⏹️ ▶️ John a big monitor. Like, look at the original price for the 30-inch was

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco outrageous. Right, wasn’t it $3,500?

⏹️ ▶️ John It was outrageous. So I don’t think it’s a hardware limitation.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t even think it’s because, oh, because they can’t get a good deal on them. I worry about how balanced the machine

⏹️ ▶️ John would be with that high a resolution. I mean, I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John if you had, I mean, fine with the Mac Pros. You’re going to have a really big, hopefully, a really big powerful GPU in there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But if the Mac Pro is the only machine you can hook up that monitor to, then I I feel like people with laptops

⏹️ ▶️ John who are like, hey, can I buy that monitor? But like, no, you can’t drive it from your laptop. And it’s like you said in

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing, it would make more sense, economy of scale-wise, to just wait until

⏹️ ▶️ John all of Apple’s line of computers can drive this monitor. And then just

⏹️ ▶️ John by then, it would be cheaper anyway naturally, and then bring it out then. I mean, it comes down to

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason I’m doubting is because Apple’s just shown so little interest in the super high end,

⏹️ ▶️ John like, why would they even bother? to put out a monitor that only a Mac Pro can run.

⏹️ ▶️ John A

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco computer

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t, they’re not even updating the computer for three years, and suddenly they’re gonna give it it’s very own special monitor for an entire

⏹️ ▶️ John year that no one else can use in the entire product line. Even if they charge five grand for that monitor, like

⏹️ ▶️ John that just doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that Apple does these days. But then again, the Mac Pro doesn’t seem like the kind of thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple does these days. So we’re just in this, it’s hard to envision in this period of time here without an update for the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro and forever, that we’re going to get both a new Mac Pro and a fancy new awesome

⏹️ ▶️ John monitor that only the Mac Pro can then provide. Like that would be a hell of a turnaround, don’t you think?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it could, but also, you know, what if this is part of the new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple under Tim Cook where they start caring about the high end more? Because the high end is very profitable. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very low units, but it’s very profitable per unit.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Plus they just want to make you happy. I mean, really, that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it boils down to. They do not want it. They just

⏹️ ▶️ John want John to be happy. I point to the Finder and the file system as examples of how they do not want to make me

⏹️ ▶️ John happy.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco They don’t care. Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco God. if you if you look at you know assuming has well laptops come out next week I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think you’re right that it would be really a stretch for them to release

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a monitor that only worked with Mac pros that would that would definitely be a big stretch I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s two interesting possibilities here one is what if the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Haswell laptops can output 4k what if they actually can output these monitors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco either not talked about or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John no they can

⏹️ ▶️ John they even The integrated GPU can drive 4K, can’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, it’s basically an issue of the interconnect.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like, you can use DisplayPort 1.2, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John you can use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thunderbolt 2.0, which isn’t ready yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I worry, like, OK, can drive it versus can drive it and still scroll

⏹️ ▶️ John things at a reasonable, you know what I mean? It’s kind of like the current, because when they have to render the offscreen

⏹️ ▶️ John thing to be larger than the native res and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco scale and

⏹️ ▶️ John that stuff, that offscreen is really pushing the limit of the current integrated GPU. And is that like, I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John always felt like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco not, if I spend.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 15 inches biggest off screen is 4k

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you put it in the simulated 1920 mode that’s for it’s like it’s it’s almost exactly 4k or if not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if not exactly so it can already kind of do it

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah I’m thinking of like if you spent the amount of money you’re gonna spend on the high-end thing

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t want it to scroll jerkily because you feel like alright fine if I’m doing something taxing

⏹️ ▶️ John is okay to get a little stuttery but the whole reason I’m buying this expensive thing is everything else has to be like butter and any

⏹️ ▶️ John experience that isn’t you know so I guess you’re right if the F that off-screen I didn’t ever look at the

⏹️ ▶️ John actual resting if the current off-screen is similar to 4k then then maybe it can

⏹️ ▶️ John drive it and it’s just a question of the interconnect and they could do all sorts that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why everyone thinks it was a come to the back pro because with you know Thunderbolt 2 or the rebadged

⏹️ ▶️ John Thunderbolt 2 hadn’t been officially announced yet so I was like well how is Apple gonna to drive these external displays.

⏹️ ▶️ John And people would come up with scenarios of, well, Apple could do some crazy custom thing, because Apple is Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they only have to support what they have to support. And so what? You buy the Apple monitor, you hook it up to the Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro replacement, and it runs 4K. But with Thunderbolt 2, my understanding is all Thunderbolt 2

⏹️ ▶️ John is, my understanding from a single tweet from a cranky person, is that all they let you do is

⏹️ ▶️ John take the two 10 gigabit links and gang them together. So you have a single 20 gigabit

⏹️ ▶️ John link. Oh, that’s all it is? And that’s why it’s 2x as fast. Instead of having two bidirectional 10 gigabits,

⏹️ ▶️ John you have one bidirectional 20 gigabit thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, that’s not true.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, again, the sourcing for that is a single tweet. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s 140 characters

⏹️ ▶️ John of non-research. So feel free to email me and tell me that is not the case. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if it drives the display, it drives the display. What do you care?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so I think the other interesting possibility, though, is that what if this crazy, cool,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new thing Is a retina iMac that’s positioned at the very high

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end and maybe has you know more ram slots or two hard drive bays or something like that

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that was the other one that you don’t have to worry about driving it over Thunderbolt because it’ll be in the same case right thing But then what?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco The reason why you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get somebody one of these panels into the existing iMacs Presumably is mostly because of cost concerns

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that the iMac is not a very expensive computer even at the high end It’s still you know there’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a whole lot of not a whole lot of room there to charge like an extra grand for an iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the current lineup with the current specs and buyers but if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if the next Mac Pro solution for pro buyers is just an iMac

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that has some amped up specs and maybe a little maybe like you know one or two extra drive bays in it where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you take the whole butt of it off and somehow shove a drive in there God taking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part iMacs is awful, but if you, you know, if they somehow address it with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a modified iMac, like I’m picturing this being not just looking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly like 27 inch, but with a higher resolution screen, I’m picturing it being like, you know, larger, thicker,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, bigger and more substantially different from the current iMac,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but not as big and beefy as a Mac Pro. There probably wouldn’t be enough room in there with thermals and everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Xeons. You know, maybe it would just use the high-end desktop chips.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it would probably max out at 32 gigs of RAM. But maybe you’d have a nicer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco GPU and more bays and new Thunderbolt. And maybe that would be enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would probably buy that computer, because I want Retina that badly.

⏹️ ▶️ John That sounds like a really good high-end iMac. Does not sound like a Mac Pro. Someone just posted in the Anatech article and reminded

⏹️ ▶️ John me that, like, so yeah, what I said about Thunderbolt 2 is correct. Like, DisplayPort is alongside

⏹️ ▶️ John the 210 gigabit channels, I believe. So the Thunderbolt 2 will have DisplayPort 1.2 and will support

⏹️ ▶️ John 4K video. So it’s not like, the fact that Thunderbolt 2

⏹️ ▶️ John is just ganging together the 210 gigabit things is not actually relevant to the display

⏹️ ▶️ John part of it because I think the DisplayPort stuff runs alongside both of those channels. Someone’s saying nope.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. This is what happens when we don’t have any research beforehand. Margo and Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John let

⏹️ ▶️ Marco him. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know. But anyway, all these things lead to the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John it is plausible that we could have 4K-ish, Retina-ish

⏹️ ▶️ John displays being driven by all of Apple’s laptops and whatever the Mac Pro replacement is this year. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s also plausible that they just decide to wait it out until next year for the Retina

⏹️ ▶️ John desktop displays.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ John Geek says 20 gigabits per channel carries both video and data.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So now that we’re somewhere around an hour and a half in, do we want to talk about iOS 7?

⏹️ ▶️ John Boring.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Who uses iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway? Does anyone use that? Is that popular?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I mean, Casey,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like what do you want to see in it? You haven’t talked much recently.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I shouldn’t have brought up the Mac Pro. You had said a while back, a good way to see what what was coming in iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is to look at what the low-hanging fruit is, and Apple will fix it. So for example,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Notification Center’s a great example. Backgrounding, copy and paste, all very good, very classic examples

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of let’s get the low-hanging fruit. And I think you had said a few months ago, maybe even with us,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that there isn’t a lot of low-hanging fruit left. And I had echoed that in my blog post on the blog that doesn’t exist

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and no one reads. And Justin Williams actually commented to me on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that, you know, even though there’s not a lot that is, that is, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey annoys me about iOS is what I had said. And the things that do, I doubt

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John fix.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Justin had said, well, you know what, that could bite Apple in the butt in that they could get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little complacent and they could end up getting left behind. And I think that’s a very interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point. And so what do I want in iOS 7? I don’t, I don’t even really know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I expect to see some amount of UI change. I don’t think it’ll be the sweeping, oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey goodness, everything is flat, looks like Windows Phone 8, Series 7, 8, 9, whatever it’s called.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I do think there’ll be a difference. But other than that, I’m not really sure what to expect. I wish I had some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey grand epiphany that I could share with everyone, so I can cackle during the keynote and say, oh, look at me, I was so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bright. But I can’t come up with anything that I think is really, that we’re really in dire need

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But looking at the popularity of things like XCallback URL

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all these apps that just launch other apps or that do things with URL

⏹️ ▶️ Marco callbacks in creative ways, it’s very, very clear that we are just starving for better

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inter-app communication and that we keep doing all these hacks because it’s all we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have. Basically look what people are doing terrible hacks to accomplish

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and see if there’s a good way that the OS could just support that in some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John better way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So and I think the two big ones there are interapp communication and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco periodic updates of an app. Like periodic background updates because right now like you know you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that do geofence updates which is just a terrible hack. I mean I did it it’s it’s a terrible hack because it’s all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have. If they could if they could solve those two problems of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco apps updating in the background periodically and interapp communication, that would be two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco major changes to the OS that would please many, many users and developers.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so I’ll bite on interapp communication. I think you’re right about that. I think they’re going to have some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of improvement. I’m not convinced it’s going to be hyper robust. It’ll probably disappoint

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot of nerds, but I think it’ll be a lot better. But how do you suspect they’re going to manage

⏹️ ▶️ Casey backgrounding in such a way that it won’t be the Android, every app installs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a daemon just because they can situation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really don’t know. You know, I’ve had some ideas over the years on how they might be able to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s interesting if you look at one case where they do it, which is newsstand.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And newsstand apps are allowed to wake up in the background once a day by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting a special push push notification sent by their servers. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now Glenn, as a magazine publisher, can send a push notification to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the application wake up in the background and do stuff for up to 10 minutes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that system can be extended a little bit to non-newsstandard apps.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you tie it to a push notification, then it does restrict it on some level

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to just you know, apps and services that are big enough to have a push back end.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it adds an economic cost, I mean it’s a very small one, but it adds a cost to the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app creator that, you know, you can’t just have every app wake up constantly for everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, like there’s going to be some kind of weight and cost of sending all those push

⏹️ ▶️ Marco notifications. And that then gives Apple a way to throttle it at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the system level and at the policy level. You can say, right now, newsstand being once a day is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty infrequent and wouldn’t really solve the needs of most apps that do this. But what if it’s limited to…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once an hour would be plenty. You could even do it less than that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What if you’d have to have some kind of good justification for it that’s enforced at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app review level? Maybe you could apply it again to certain tiers of…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to justify being able to, you know, being hourly versus being daily or versus being twice a day.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, there’s, there are ways they can do this. And there’s precedents for all this. They’ve already done many of these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things. They’ve already introduced, like, certain, you know, half measures or limited measures.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And from what I gather in talking to various Apple people over the years

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on this exact topic and begging them to do something about it, it sounds like it was always a topic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of significant internal debate as to, you know, how to allow this kind of stuff, whether to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco allow, and you can do things like, you know, only when it’s on Wi-Fi or only when it’s plugged in,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, there’s all sorts of things you can do to mitigate some of the downsides of a bunch of apps waking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up here and there. You can do it like only apps that you’ve launched in the last week, you know, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so many things you can do to limit it so it’s not totally out of hand.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And maybe, you know, the internal debates about this, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is different now that iOS has different leadership. You know, we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know yet. And, you know, Tim made those comments at All Things D about, you know, how they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to open up some things in the APIs and they’re going to be doing that. You know, that’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he didn’t just, you know, throw that out there. That was, you know, as we discussed last episode, That was like a significant statement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I think we should pay attention to. And I think, I don’t think he meant that lightly.

⏹️ ▶️ John It could have been about default apps. It could have been about interapp communication. There are many things that fall under

⏹️ ▶️ John the category of that vague phrase about opening

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco up. But those are all big things. Those are all

⏹️ ▶️ John very big things. I know, but we just don’t know which one it is, though.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Sure, oh yeah. It could be all

⏹️ ▶️ John three, none, just one. And I was thinking for the background stuff, Apple’s MO so

⏹️ ▶️ John far, and it has served them well is anytime you have anything that wants to be done in the background, don’t let applications

⏹️ ▶️ John do it. Let a single system service do it and let the application register with that system service. So like

⏹️ ▶️ John the push notifications. You got one process that is responsible for doing all that. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John applications register their intent for that. I don’t actually, is that how all push notifications work?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Is there

⏹️ ▶️ John a single daemon process that handles it? And what you don’t want to have

⏹️ ▶️ John is like the, you don’t want to have N processes if you have an application that uses feature. You

⏹️ ▶️ John want to have one process that an application is registered with. So almost

⏹️ ▶️ John any, you know, if you want to go longest thing, if you just had, if you had like, you don’t want to, you don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ John to have that one application, like load bundles from other applications. So then the other applications are just going to

⏹️ ▶️ John crash the demon process and everyone’s going to be sad. So you need to have some scenario where a single demon process,

⏹️ ▶️ John like if you want to just do the arbitrary one, a single demon process loads arbitrary code supplied by other applications

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t crash when their code is crappy, but interleaves their code in an efficient manner. So when someone’s in I.O., wait, some

⏹️ ▶️ John other process could be running, and you only have one process, like, that’s the idealized version. Hey, everybody, anyone can

⏹️ ▶️ John do anything in the background they want, but all of your work will be put through this single funnel, and it will throttle you, and it

⏹️ ▶️ John will let your, it’ll like, you know, it’s like a little mini, a little mini scheduler for background-type tasks, and it

⏹️ ▶️ John could apply policies, like you said, once per day or whatever, but that’s the extreme, where we don’t care

⏹️ ▶️ John what kind of code you do, it doesn’t have to just be a specific set of APIs, set of APIs, you will just take your arbitrary tool and run it,

⏹️ ▶️ John and we’ll do it all within this one gatekeeper application that runs your stuff. But I think that

⏹️ ▶️ John is too extreme. I think you’re much more likely to have a

⏹️ ▶️ John more limited set of things you can do run by a single process. It’s just that the boundaries expand

⏹️ ▶️ John ever so slightly outward from what they are now. Right. Like, it’s a fence around what we can do now. The fence gets a little bit bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now there’s a little bit more stuff you can do. But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco still, it’s like… So much of that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff is already in newsstand. way they you know, you can, you have the push that wakes things up in the background.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then you have the asset download system, which is you basically register a URL handler.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, and then you know, it, you say, you know, crawl this URL with this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco request, and just let me know whenever you’re done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Or next time I wake up,

⏹️ ▶️ John does your code is your full fledged app get to run? Or does just like a loadable bundle inside your app get to run?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There is no such differentiation in iOS today. If your app runs at all, you can do whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want and so you get woken up for the 10 minutes when the push comes in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can do whatever you want including download stuff directly but then if you in queue the URL download

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the the NK asset URL download or whatever NK asset something download

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then that goes into a background queue that your application doesn’t own doesn’t manage you don’t see that again until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s done

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John so if you but your app does not get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco woken up when it’s done just but next time you launch you can then fetch the results of it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So if you’re, but if you’re woken up to do your thing and you start doing your thing and then you get killed because of

⏹️ ▶️ John memory pressure, right? You didn’t get a chance to do your thing, but you just got killed. The only thing that’s helping

⏹️ ▶️ John you is that if during that time you had registered something like that asset to go download or whatever, then you

⏹️ ▶️ John getting killed is not a big deal because you’ve already registered your intent. I have this task that I would like to perform.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not gonna do it. You do it. Oops, sorry, I got killed. And then when you come back later, you can say, hey, that thing I told you about last

⏹️ ▶️ John time, that you do that for me and get the result

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly. And one of the things, actually, one of the things that kept biting me whenever I would write things against

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this API is that the NK asset download

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seems to go into a single item at a time queue that seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be possibly the same queue as app updates and other system downloads.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so you might enqueue something, and it might not finish for hours, even if it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would take a minute to download because there’s a bunch of crap in front of it.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s what I was getting at with like a mini scheduler, because it has all the same problems as an OS scheduler, where

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t want to starve low priority processes, because that’s the pathological case where you’re like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John great schedule, high priority tests, always get service. And then you end up with some low priority test that would be accomplished in half a second, if

⏹️ ▶️ John only it would ever get up, but there’s always higher priority stuff. So you have to have some way to invert

⏹️ ▶️ John that priority and say, OK, well, we do need to give low priority ones a chance to go. Or maybe you should schedule them on how

⏹️ ▶️ John long you think they’re going to take. And again, when things are in IO wait, you want to do something else. You don’t want it to just be a dumb. Those are all exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John the same process that the entire OS has for scheduling processes. But

⏹️ ▶️ John instead of having the whole OS do it, like, oh, fine, let me just do the Android thing then. We’ll actually let the OS kernel

⏹️ ▶️ John schedule all this stuff for us. And then you just end up with everyone making a million processes, and you kill your battery. So

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the balance Apple is trying to strike here. And it sounds like the thing they have doing Newsden is a

⏹️ ▶️ John really terrible OS kernel in terms of, like, oh, you’re blocked because

⏹️ ▶️ John someone’s updating some game that’s like 1.3 gigabytes, and you just want a 4K URL. Well, sorry,

⏹️ ▶️ John you suck.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what else in iOS 7? Any quick guesses? Because we do have to wrap up soon. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey either of you guys? Silence? All right, good talk.

⏹️ ▶️ John Default apps wouldn’t be crazy. Like, I don’t know. I give that less than 50% chance, but that’s not totally

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy, right? I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco if they revamp

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Interapp Communication, that would also give them a good opportunity

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to rethink this whole URL scheme registration system and maybe tie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a sequel to that into the new system. And it would be a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco convenient time to let you change the defaults while you’re doing all this other stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with having some kind of Interapp registry and some kind of file

⏹️ ▶️ Marco association type thing. This would be the time to do it if they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to do it, is what I’m saying.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and plus, I know it sounds silly, but as you guys pointed out, what is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the big room Presidio in Moscone? It’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to be bigger this year, and it seems like every—I’m not being literal—but it appears

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that a lot of the to-be-announced sessions are going to be happening in Presidio,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Presidio is going to be bigger, which infers, as I think you said, Marco, or implies, excuse me, that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s going to be some really massive changes happening. Jared

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But one thing, I do want to temper excitement for the whole TBA thing a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit, that typically what they do is they will mark a session TBA, even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it’s not talking about, like, a whole new category of things, they’ll mark it as TBA

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if its description even contains, like one word of something that’s not public yet. They won’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just do like two descriptions, one for before and one for after the keynote. So if it mentions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like what’s new in iOS 7, well they haven’t actually said the name iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 7 anywhere yet. They told us you know they’re gonna be showing us the latest of iOS, but they haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco named it yet. And so the name iOS 7, if that’s what they’re calling it, is probably still you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know private under super Apple NDA.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Or Or Xcode 5.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, exactly. So it might not, it isn’t a great correlation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of amount of new stuff to number of TBA sessions.

⏹️ ▶️ John It just means the new stuff is going to be of general interest.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So Xcode,

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone there cares about Xcode 5. And sometimes they repeat sessions too. So it’s like, your introduction to

⏹️ ▶️ John Xcode 5, the amazing new ID. And then they repeat that session later in the week, both times in Presidio, because

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone at the conference can benefit from that session. And they want to make sure everyone can see it. So stuff like that is not

⏹️ ▶️ John earth shattering, but it does require a big room twice.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you want to give any WVDC tips? I see that on our document

⏹️ ▶️ Casey here. Ah, look at you looking.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My cursor is resting in the official

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John cursor resting area.

⏹️ ▶️ John On Monday morning, everyone just sleep in, because there’s really no point in lining up early.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey If you just stroll in at like 8 o’clock,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ll walk right into the keynote, no

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco problem. Front

⏹️ ▶️ John row.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, as far as tips go, if we had a little more time, I could rattle off a bunch. But you and I, both, Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have put up blog posts about this in the past, and if we remember, maybe we can put them in our show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco notes. I mean, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a lot of other people, too. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey there’s no shortage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of, you know, first-timers guides and tips for the conference and everything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, the one thing I think I’d like to say, though, is I believe I speak for the both of you guys in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying that if you are one of the people who is in San Francisco and you happen to run into one or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of us, definitely say hi. Not during a session, of course, but if it is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John socially. during a session too.

⏹️ ▶️ John Who cares? Well, not when they’re talking.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John talk during

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the session. Well, if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sitting next to us, you can say hello. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mean, that… Well, okay, that is allowed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Whisper.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly. Just don’t interrupt the speaker. But no, seriously, please say hi, because I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey been around Marco and John at WWDC for the last couple years, and they’re always

⏹️ ▶️ Casey extremely excited to meet people. I’m excited to meet

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John people. I’m excited to meet people? You sure you’re with me? I’m not excited. Oh, you say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you’re not. Casey’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the only one of us who could possibly be an extrovert. I like meeting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think you guys don’t give yourselves enough credit, but seriously, please say hi because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s always fun to meet people that enjoy your work, and I can actually

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of include myself in that this year, which is pretty exciting. So definitely say hi if possible. Any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey tips from you two?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, you know, like Casey, if you see anybody who you know from the internet or something, go up and say hi

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because because everyone you know from the internet is not a celebrity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And nobody ever in real life recognizes them and says, oh, hey, I love your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work. Because nobody ever knows what they do when they’re back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their regular places that they live.

⏹️ ▶️ John WNBC has always been like that, because even when Steve Jobs was there, if you just plunk Steve Jobs down

⏹️ ▶️ John into a random place in the United States and had him go into a store, do you think the guy behind the counter would recognize him? No.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe 50-50, if you’re lucky. And he was the most famous person ever to work for

⏹️ ▶️ John the new Apple. Tim Cook probably can go anywhere in America

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s outside the tech nerd world, not get recognized. Everyone else

⏹️ ▶️ John at WRC is way, way, way below all those guys. So this is the only,

⏹️ ▶️ John as I said in the podcast last year, this is the only place where any of us are

⏹️ ▶️ John many levels of, scare quotes, famous. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco this is

⏹️ ▶️ John the one place where we get to get recognized, unlike the Apple store for me when they won’t let me

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey pick

⏹️ ▶️ John my heart right, because they don’t know who I am. So yeah, so we all enjoy that

⏹️ ▶️ John and try not to let it go to our heads, because we know that this is literally the only place on the

⏹️ ▶️ John planet where people are likely to even know who we are and recognize us. So it’s nice.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if Marco can go up and introduce himself to Forrestal, then you can certainly introduce

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yourself to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco us. Oh, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was so nervous about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, well, and then they had to fire him later, so. Yeah. That was it.

⏹️ ▶️ John You talked to that Armin guy, didn’t you? You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. I doomed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that guy.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was it. That was the beginning of the end for Scott

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Forstall. Kiss

⏹️ ▶️ John of death. Don’t let Marco say hi to you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John maybe you shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say hi to Marco, but John and I say hi to us. And also, before we go, we should probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey explain the pre-roll song.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, definitely.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So, a very close friend of mine, Larry King, who is not the one from CNN,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey he decided to create not an alternative theme song, because let’s be honest,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we’ll never replace our existing theme song by Jonathan Mann, but he thought he’d write

⏹️ ▶️ Casey us a little tune, and even though it kind of makes fun of me, I got a good kick

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out of it, and so that was the pre-roll. So we appreciate and thank Larry King, who is at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey LA King, not at LA Kings, which is the soccer, excuse me, not soccer,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the hockey team, but we appreciate him doing that, and we’ll put a link to the song in the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well. allowed to make fun of you because he only knows you. Like, he’s friends

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey with you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, somebody who only knows me or John can’t make fun of you because that would just be mean. But this guy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually just knows you.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly. So he gets a bye.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to our two sponsors of this episode. Squarespace. Go to and you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make your own website really easily and really great. And then go to Tonks, T-O-N-X

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dot org slash A-T-P, to get really great coffee, fresh roasted and shipped

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to you on a regular basis. You really can’t do any better than that. Thanks a lot to Squarespace and Tonics

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sponsoring, and thank you guys, and we’ll see each other next week at the conference.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, accidental, Oh, it was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him. Because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it

⏹️ ▶️ John was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O, A-R-M, D-N-T,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Armin, S-I-R, A-C,

⏹️ ▶️ John USA Syracuse. It’s accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They didn’t mean to. Accidental. Tech

⏹️ ▶️ Casey podcasts so long.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, but now I’m getting my Skype call from my other podcast, so I have to run.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey All right, they’re early.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Well, you and I. Yes, they are, they’re very early. Jason

⏹️ ▶️ John Snell’s little face is insistent.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey You can get it. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco can hang on. All right, I’ll decide this without you. Later,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey See ya. Later.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now we can talk about him. Yeah, right, can we make the title Jason Snell’s Face is Insistent?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, if that would actually be in the show, that would be good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, God, well, you could put it in the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I could.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey How come you put all the crap about me in the show and none about him?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What are you kidding? every episode ends with him

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s true and well I am going to see you what Sunday

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah Sunday after

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we I’m very excited actually that should be really fun I’m really looking forward

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco to that I can’t wait we can’t force John

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have fun

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey but I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know no matter how another title no matter how hard we try we can’t force

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco John we and we do try

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and we do try I’m like I’m almost willing to say make that the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey title just to troll him.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the funny thing is he wouldn’t have fun and it wouldn’t help at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, it wouldn’t.