Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

15: Cat, Modifier Cat

Why Marco sold The Magazine, teasing apps before launch, Tim Cook at AllThingsD, and WWDC predictions for OS X.

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⏹️ ▶️ John All your data is out there and you have no idea if any of its valid you’re just

⏹️ ▶️ John propagating single bit errors into all of your backups ad infinitum

⏹️ ▶️ John You don’t worry about that. You don’t think about that how

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Terrible it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I choose not to worry about that

⏹️ ▶️ John Wow Blame me when your wedding pictures are corrupted and there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a giant pink

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey pixel. Oh, please

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, firstly a pink pixel where my face should be would probably be an improvement But secondly, I have like 35 backups of that,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey including the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John original.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, they’re all corrupted because once they go bad in the original disc, you’re just corrupting your backups. You’re just propagating the corruption because you have no

⏹️ ▶️ John idea it’s there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have the original DVD. The original DVD.

⏹️ ▶️ John Those will keep you. Oh, gosh. Little little burnt spots on

⏹️ ▶️ John ink under plastic. That’ll last forever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s organic dye, so it decomposes. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hate you so much. So what are we talking about today? Well, this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is turning into the accidental Marco podcast because you’ve you’ve gone and sold

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stuff again I’m waiting to be told that I’ve been replaced or sold or I don’t know somebody

⏹️ ▶️ Casey else is my daddy now. So a big week

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah a little bit at least this is the last one like I’m out of stuff. Oh sure I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Saw so many jokes about how your next app has already been sold and nobody even knows what it is yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s that’s pretty good. I don’t know what it is. Yeah, that’s pretty good Actually, at this point I do know what it is, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ll see. If you just pay attention to what sessions I go to during WBDC, you’ll probably be able to guess it pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco easily, but it doesn’t really matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m really excited to finally have, like, basically, I mentioned at some point before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the magazine sale was public, and I should mention too, like, Glenn and I were arranging this almost a month

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ago, and it just so happened that, you know, we did arrange it after the Instapaper

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing but it was before the Tumblr thing and so as the Tumblr thing was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going on Glenn and I were emailing each other going man this is gonna be hilarious when we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey announce this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everyone’s gonna think I’m just selling everything I own but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but yeah I the main reasons I wanted to sell the magazine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were you know what I wrote in the blog post which is basically I had created a job for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco myself that was a lot less of what I wanted to do than I expected. It was a lot of just administrative

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff and process stuff and overhead and almost no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco development.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I kind of wish that I failed as spectacularly as you do in creating these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey lucrative-appearing businesses that you just have to be burdened with unloading. It’s a tough

⏹️ ▶️ Casey life you live, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sorry. I mean, no, it’s, uh, you know, it, the other main reason that I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to sell it is that because it was taking up my time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it was, and it’s, it’s a mental burden as well, having these things, you know, like everything that you do, um,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, occupies some kind of space in your mind and in your, you know, when you, like, in your present

⏹️ ▶️ Marco state of mind. I’m probably abusing these terms. I’m, I’m definitely not a Buddhist or anything that, that anyone who would be trained

⏹️ ▶️ Marco properly and being able to describe these things but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but uh i uh i don’t i don’t like having things on my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco plate uh that i’m not really into and obviously there’s some stuff that you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco got to do just you know you just got to do it like you know you got to do your taxes you got to you know clean your house

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and stuff you know like There’s stuff you gotta do. But something like making your own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco business, you know, that’s, you have control over that. So anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the reasons why I wanted to sell Instapaper was because it was like weighing on me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mentally that I didn’t want to put in the effort into it that it really deserved and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of it I couldn’t put in the effort that it really deserved. With the magazine, it was more like, I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep doing this indefinitely because it wasn’t taking up much of my time but why

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep a business around that I’m barely putting anything into? And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what I learned also like

⏹️ ▶️ John coding… You know the answer to that question though right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well because it makes money right? Is that the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John answer? That’s the usual answer. Why keep a

⏹️ ▶️ John business around that makes money that I barely put anything into? Yeah that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the reality is like you know you can ask ask like people who buy a restaurant you know thinking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh this will generate money forever. Like, you know, maybe, but you’re going to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco involved whether you like it or not. Like, it’s going to need you. You know, like, it’s the idea of a business

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that just generates passive money, you never have to touch it. Those do exist, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not really in the software world. They really don’t exist. You can neglect something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while, and it can work for a little while, but it doesn’t really exist in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense that you’re still going to have to maintain that. You’re still going to be responsible for that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can’t just let it sit there and stagnate forever. Eventually, things are going to dwindle down. People

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are going to see that you haven’t done much to it in a while, and they’re going to move on.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or something’s going to break. With the TextMate 1 problem, something might break at any point and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cause problems.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there’s no reason you couldn’t have done exactly what Glenn is doing, though. So he’s taking

⏹️ ▶️ John the reins now, and he’s not a developer. Well, not this kind of developer. So he is just bringing people

⏹️ ▶️ John on to take over development of the iOS app to do all sorts of ancillary things

⏹️ ▶️ John while he sort of wrangles them. So it seems to me that it’s like if your heart

⏹️ ▶️ John was in it, if this is what you really wanted to be, was like run a publication and grow a publication,

⏹️ ▶️ John you would be doing it. And it has less to do with

⏹️ ▶️ John whether the thing is making lots of money or a little bit of money or how long it’s going to make money, because you’re perfectly capable

⏹️ ▶️ John of doing the things that Glenn is doing with it, basically delegating to other people to do all the stuff, delegating the

⏹️ ▶️ John development and everything. It’s just that that seems like not something you want to do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s right. I could delegate the development to somebody else, but the development

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was the part I liked the most. But there just wasn’t that much that I wanted to do with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I loved building the app. I loved all the little design tricks and everything, and I loved doing all that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But then once the app is done, I’m like, well, it’s in maintenance mode basically and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you can there’s certainly features you can add there’s some like there’s some good stuff glam wants to do to it but it was all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff that I that I really didn’t care that much about I wasn’t that motivated to do and and you know ultimately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it wasn’t you’re right that if I wanted to keep doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this I could have there’s nothing you know of course I could have my theory

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that well well I know you know just the way I feel I know that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I’m not really I’m just not that into doing the management and the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco business stuff you know that’s I do that stuff because I have to not because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really love it and so the magazine had become my role in the magazine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had become pretty much all business stuff and overhead and none of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff I wanted to do very often and so what I also learned I was talking to our friend underscore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco David Smith recently, like, I don’t know, like a couple hours ago. And because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, David Smith has lots of apps. He has a portfolio of many apps. He does a lot of things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I can really do that. You know, when I started working on the magazine alongside Instapaper, I started

⏹️ ▶️ Marco learning some of these difficulties in my motivation or my personality or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever it is. I’m not very good at working on multiple apps at the same time of the same type.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know I can do a web app and a native app that you know that those are different enough. I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do an app, a podcast, and a blog because those are very different things and they you know they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco serve different different parts of my brain and my satisfaction and what I do and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what I make. But I really don’t think I’m very good at having multiple apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that all need attention.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Like when I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had the nursing clock app that was nothing. You know, I crapped it out in a couple of days and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it didn’t require any maintenance and it made something like 30 bucks over the course of its life. But, you know, it didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco require any maintenance. So, you know, that’s a whole other story. But to have like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two apps going at the same time that both need a good amount of attention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ongoing, I can’t do that. I really don’t work well that way. So I really,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wanted to, you know, I want to start this new thing I’m doing and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s an iOS app. So, you know, I wanted to start a new thing and I know I could have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kept doing the magazine, but I was so not that into it already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of what my job had become that I created for myself. I was so not that into it already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you know I I wanted a clean plate I wanted to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing else competing for my attention in the in the app space also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mentioned last episode or recently I don’t know when I don’t want to talk this whole episode by the way but I mentioned I mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last episode or something like that that that I work in bursts of productivity running

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a publication doesn’t really allow you to do that because there’s a there’s a publication schedule

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so every two weeks weeks, even though it wasn’t a lot of work for me, you know, Glenn was doing almost all of it already,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but every two weeks I had to do XYZ and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing a podcast and you know that’s a little bit different in that it’s easier and it’s more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of me being creative and having this creative output. Publishing an issue with a magazine does not involve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco creativity on my part by very much. You know, I picked a few photos and picked the cover image and that’s about it and then I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had to pay checks to everybody and do the server push and stuff like that and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know it just wasn’t it wasn’t that interesting so like having to do that every two weeks felt like a restriction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on me whereas oh and you can’t really take a week off like at least this show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know if we really want to we could take a week off not that any of us are likely to do that but if we really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wanted to we could take a week off with with a publication you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it was like it locked me into this fixed schedule but I don’t really work very well that way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that was another reason. But anyway, the main reason I wanted to sell it was because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wanted to clear my plate and be able to put myself into my next project fully.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that makes complete sense. And not to psychoanalyze you at all,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it seems to me that we’re seeing a trend, and certainly I’ve known you for a really darn long

⏹️ ▶️ Casey time, so I feel like I’m somewhat qualified to speak about this. It seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m seeing a trend that anything that’s compulsory, you tend to not like. And in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey case of the magazine, once

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco you don’t see it, yeah, it’s been a trend

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since like first grade.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, so

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you mean, and I’m, that’s exactly my point. I mean, you’ve talked a lot about how you don’t really like homework, you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey talked about how you don’t really love paying taxes, which granted, who does? You’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco talked about-

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love paying taxes, I don’t like dealing with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you know what I mean. So, and also, it seems like part of the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reason that you got turned off by the magazine to build on what you were saying before is because you had to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be productive at certain times. It’s not that you hated necessarily doing the work,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at least that’s what it sounds to me anyway, that it’s not necessarily that you hated doing the work as much as you had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do it at a certain time and that’s really tough. And the other thing I’ll say, and then you can refute everything I just told you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you want because I’m trying to put words in your mouth. The other thing I’ll say is it’s like the same reason you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have the 1M anymore. You’ve got your fancy nice car. don’t want to have to choose between two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey equally fancy nice cars.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey ridiculously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you’re going to get me started and we don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco want to do that because nobody listens to me. Go ahead, move on.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But you know what I mean? You don’t want to have to choose between two nice things any more than you want to have to choose

⏹️ ▶️ Casey between two crummy things or whatever the case may be. And whether or not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other people understand what the burden was, the fact of the matter is you felt it was a burden and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you felt that you had to work on it rather than desire to And so that’s the point at which, at least

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to me, it seems that’s the point at which you sold Instapaper when you felt like you had to work on it. It’s the point in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which you sold the magazines when you felt like you had to work on it and when you didn’t want to work on it anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, from an outsider’s point of view, that’s what I’m seeing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s pretty accurate. I mean, you know, I’m not a very complicated personality.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, there’s not a lot of layers here. It’s pretty much what you see is what you get. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I don’t make any effort to hide all that stuff and you nailed it. That’s me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, that’s pretty fair. John, any observations on that before we totally sidestep?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I don’t think so. I think Marco is doing what we would all do if we could. Not do the things you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t want to do, do the things you do want to do, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. All right. Do you want to share anything

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about this forthcoming app? And I did not figure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco out in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey advance whether or not I should ask that question. So…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, not yet. I will in time. You know, honestly, I’m kind of I’m still debating

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my head Because debating out loud is boring. I’m still debating in my head

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether whether to Pre announce anything about the app before it’s ready

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether to put up like a splash page and do all that bullshit oops, I gotta bleep that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or Or you know all the all the stuff people do and just hype up their app have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a cue I’m not going to do that, but put up a splash page and tease it, like, coming soon!

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if I want to do that or if I want to just say what the app will be and then collect feedback at the expense

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of having competitors then copy me and stuff. So I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going to decide all those things over the next few months. But what I have decided

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that I’m not going to make any major decisions about the app’s feature set

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or design or layout or navigational structure until after WWDC. Because I want to see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what iOS 7 introduces. I want to see what’s different and what’s coming up. And then I will decide

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fully, like here’s the kind of feature set this will have. Here’s the business model.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like if they introduce something like upgrade pricing or trials, that might influence my decision on the business model.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I don’t want to make any decisions yet on all those big things. And then I’ll see, maybe throughout

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the summer, maybe I’ll tease it. maybe I will just announce it outright and it won’t be available

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet or maybe I’ll just shut up about it until it’s ready. I don’t know yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well did you see what Justin Williams is doing with whatever he’s building?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have a chance to look at that yet. Yeah, the passbook thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I forget what he’s calling it. Man, this is an accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco podcast. PitPass. Any

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes. It’s a car reference, Casey. We should know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know. I’m disappointed myself. But the premise, in case you’re not familiar, is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you get this passbook item into passbook, and I guess what he’s doing is he’s going to update

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it with little bits and blurbs about the forthcoming app

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as he decides to release it. And whether or not you believe in pre-releasing things and pre-announcing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things, I think it’s a very clever and different take on something that we’ve seen ad nauseum

⏹️ ▶️ Casey our entire lives. So I didn’t know, Marco, if you had any thoughts on that. I guess if you haven’t really looked into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco it. I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had a chance to look at it, but it looks like, you know, the point of it is to do things, it looks like a combination of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being able to tease apps that are upcoming and also like the iOS version of a newsletter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like traditional software developers, especially indies who have sold on the Mac and stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have for a long time had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mailing lists they maintain and then, you know, like Roga Amoeba has talked about this before, our friends over there, where like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they hardly ever mail anything out to people, but when they make a brand new product or a major update, then they will.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s always like a significant source of upgrade revenue and of customers coming back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and buying new stuff. And people actually like that. And on iOS, there’s no good way to do it. You can kind of…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You aren’t allowed to do it with push notifications, although people do, but you aren’t allowed to technically. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t want to annoy people. And you also don’t usually have access to things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like their email address. So this is an interesting idea if it’s going to address some of that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco beyond just the promoting upcoming app thing. But I guess that’s all I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to say because I don’t know much about it yet.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. John, did you have any thoughts?

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco was saying he wasn’t sure whether he wanted to tease this thing ahead of time. It seems pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John clear to me that you don’t want to tease it ahead of time, but are only considering it because it may be a good way to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John build, you know, good buzz for your application,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, here’s the thing. I’ve always thought building buzz before you could actually get it is kind of a waste because I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know when, like, I forget where I was. I was talking to somebody about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sorry to whoever that was. Hopefully, it wasn’t you guys. That there’s this movie

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for, it’s a documentary about sign painters. People used to paint signs by hand before, like, vinyl

⏹️ ▶️ Marco signs and everything came out. And they keep promoting this thing everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I see it everywhere. And it’s a little documentary. It’s been at film festivals and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I can’t get it. I can’t buy it. I can’t rent it. I can’t view it online. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can’t, no matter what I do, I won’t be able to get it for months. And so they’re getting all this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco publicity out there and I’m interested. I’m responding. I’m saying,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want to see this movie. I will pay a few bucks right now to see this movie if you can get it to me. but it’s not out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and like that drives me crazy as a customer like because what’s probably going to happen is going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco come out in six months and I won’t care anymore and I will have forgotten by then so I hate pre

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hyping things because you get people interested in me this is one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the reasons why the Apple strategy works so well Apple says nothing until the things available

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s like all right here’s this awesome new thing you want this right you can buy it today or this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Friday, you know, that’s, you can respond immediately. The hype does something for you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco When this product’s not even available yet and not going to be available for months, what can you really do with that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What can you really do with all that hype? Like, to me, I think it’s kind of arrogant to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expect people to remember all that crap in two or three months.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you would, I mean, I assume you wouldn’t, like, there’s this, it’s a spectrum where you wouldn’t tease it way, way, way ahead of

⏹️ ▶️ John time, but perhaps, like, basically, first, You don’t put anything up until the thing is basically done. And all you’re doing is

⏹️ ▶️ John delaying it so you can build the site. So maybe if it’s only like one week or two weeks lead time, when you are actually

⏹️ ▶️ John finished, basically, and you’re just like, this is the ramp up to sale. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I wouldn’t say like, do like they do with the movies and tease it the summer before it comes out with some obscure

⏹️ ▶️ John image to get people excited about what the movie is. And then, you know. But

⏹️ ▶️ John what I was getting at before is that if marketing was not a factor at all,

⏹️ ▶️ John and human beings weren’t buying this application, you were just making it for your own edification,

⏹️ ▶️ John you would release it when it’s done and not say anything about it ahead of time. I mean, you won’t even say what it is at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it seems like your inclination is, why would I ever tell anyone anything until it’s done? And then I would give

⏹️ ▶️ John it to you, and here it is. But the only reason you’re considering it is because maybe that attitude is a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John too close to the best. Maybe there’s something that’s a happy medium, where three days before I have a countdown

⏹️ ▶️ John clock, or a week ahead of time I put an image, or something like that. You know what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean? you have to look at it as, you know, for me, like what’s in it for me really? Like why,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what is my benefit from pre-announcing and pre-teasing something? And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because, you know, and it’s hard. Honestly, I would love to share stuff with people. I would love to share information with people. I’ve been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco burned a lot in the past by being ripped off and I’m still very sensitive to that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, I’m trying to, I’m trying to reduce my sensitivity to that over time, but I still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco am very sensitive to it. And so the last thing I want to do is announce what going to do and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get ripped off before I even do it. Everything’s a remix, Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, the one thing I would say, and then maybe we can do a quick sponsor, the one thing I would say is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in my personal opinion, you’ve just pre-announced everything you should need to pre-announce, or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey need is probably a poor choice of words, but everything you might want to pre-announce. We know that you’re working on an iOS app.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We know that it’s going to be something different, and I don’t think we really need to know any more than that. And I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think I echo what you were saying earlier that it’s almost disrespectful to say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more than that. I mean, people know you’ve cleaned your plate of all your obligations. Presumably you found

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something that’s no longer compulsory, but actually interesting to work on. And so everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey knows that you’re not going to sit on your island with your yachts and helicopters and your M5 and drive in circles.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s all I think anyone wants to know is that we’re going to get something else in the world

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thanks to you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tell you that it will contain a UI web view and it is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey a watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco So who do we like?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This week we have two brand new sponsors. I’ll tell you about the first one right now. The first one is from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco RemObject Software. It’s called Oxygen for Coco. And it’s a new programming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco language. And it’s for Coco and the Objective-C runtime. So I want to explain this properly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So give me some leeway here. So they say, especially they even address this comment

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to John, it is not a bridge and it is not an abstraction layer. It is a true language

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the platform and it replaces objective C within the tool stack. So it gives you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco full and direct access to all the Cocoa classes and APIs. All the objects you interact

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with in the code are the real objective C objects. You’re calling methods on a real UI button, you’re implementing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a real UI table view controller subclass, et cetera. And it compiles down to regular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Objective C run time objects and native code. So the resulting executable is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all but indistinguishable from one created with Objective C and X code. And if you debug the app or run

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it in instruments, it looks like it’s written in Objective C, so all those things just work. So the language is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco based on Object Pascal. But there’s a good reason that their tagline is, it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your daddy’s Pascal. I don’t know, my daddy didn’t have Pascal. Maybe yours did. Because it goes well beyond

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what most people associate with Pascal, but it maintains all the readability and consistency that makes Pascal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a great language. So it has many advanced features that they say blows Objective-C

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of the water. Things like future types, class contracts, and many elements that make it just more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco convenient and straightforward to use in Objective-C. For instance, you can use plus to concatenate two NS strings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it will automatically box from an integer to an NS number if you call a method on it. You know, stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So and the other cool thing about this is that this oxygen language is also available for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco platform and for Java and Android. So if you are writing applications for multiple platforms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or say a server back end, you can do it all in the same language. Oxygen has been around

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for about eight years and it’s the most widely used non-Microsoft language on the platform.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you know, what they say is, you know, it’s not ‑‑ it isn’t to encourage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the right ones run everywhere, kind of crappy cross-platform apps, but it’s designed to let you create

⏹️ ▶️ Marco platforms, or create apps for each platform natively, but you can use the same language in all places, so you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco learn it once and you know it. Anyway, you can find out more at,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s, slash oxygen, but it’s oxygen spelled with an E on the end,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it looks like oxygeen, but it’s pronounced oxygen, so O-X-Y-G-E-N-E.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or you can go to, spelled the same way. of this show can get 20% off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco any of the product with coupon code ATP 13 once again it’s ram objects dot com slash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oxygen with an e on the end and use coupon code ATP 13 for 20% off thank you very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much to oxygen for oxygen for cocoa from ram objects software

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was pressing this oxygen in my head the entire time we were setting up the sponsorship until they gave me the text and they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yeah a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gave me the the pronunciation guide that it is pronounced oxygen

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah they’ve been people been sending me the links and I was going to the site and reading the site and also pronouncing it the wrong way into my

⏹️ ▶️ John head. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It’s pronounced oxygen,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but spelled oxygen.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right. Yeah. The top thing on their site should have been just a pronunciation guide.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is there anyone behind this that we would know? Because I always wonder where these companies come from. Because what they’re doing is not

⏹️ ▶️ John something you’re like, oh, I just think I’ll do this thing where you write in one language and deploy on all these different platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, it is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a small job.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. And yet, they seem like, where do these people come

⏹️ ▶️ John from? must have been toiling on this in obscurity for like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco years. Well they said they’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco been on Microsoft platforms for eight years. So I think that’s probably where they came from is they started out there and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John migrated to language. They were just

⏹️ ▶️ John off our radar I guess. Yeah. And now they’ve branched out to iOS. That makes some sense because I’m like how in the world do you ever,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, accomplish that in any reasonable time frame?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no idea. And more importantly, you look at this and you’re like why can’t Apple do stuff like this? But they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not.

⏹️ ▶️ John They can. They just aren’t.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well they don’t care about anyone but themselves. And they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco themselves are happy. Let’s have a whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast about paying taxes. That sounds like fun. That sounds super fun. Oh God.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And sort of kind of speaking of paying taxes, the other thing I wanted to at least briefly talk about is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tim Cook at All Things D, which was what, last night, I believe, at the time of recording, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Tuesday night. So there were a couple of interesting things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that came of this, and to be honest, this conversation may be fairly short, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of the things that I thought was really awesome was the way he talked about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how Apple views their job. Tim said, We

⏹️ ▶️ Casey think

⏹️ ▶️ John that the customer pays us to make certain choices on their behalf.

⏹️ ▶️ John Instead of going in and I’ve seen some settings on these phones

⏹️ ▶️ John where they said that you’re deep into the bowels of the thing, choosing this and that and the other and the other

⏹️ ▶️ John and the other. I don’t think that’s what most customers want. Do some want it? Yes,

⏹️ ▶️ John of course. But is that a mainstream customer

⏹️ ▶️ John want? I don’t think so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought that was about as good a way as any that I’ve ever heard somebody sum

⏹️ ▶️ Casey up the way Apple approaches products. And I know when I talk to a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my developer friends, particularly the local ones that work, say in.NET or other languages,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they all get very angry about the fact that they don’t have a lot of control over iOS devices, and that’s why a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of them use Android devices. And I keep coming back to, you know, five, 10 years

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ago, maybe 10 years ago, I would have much preferred an Android device because I could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey fiddle with it and tweak it and turn it into something honestly kind of awful.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But now I just want stuff to work, and I want Apple to make those choices for me.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And again, I thought this was just an unbelievably good and short way of summing it up. I don’t know what you guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thought about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I always get nervous when I hear Tim Cook saying product-related things. Not that I think he

⏹️ ▶️ John shouldn’t. I mean, he’s the CEO. He says he speaks for the company. That’s fine and

⏹️ ▶️ John everything. But I guess my picture of him in my head is not that.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not his strength. I would much rather see him, when he starts talking about a

⏹️ ▶️ John similar thing, like why they don’t have a large line of phones and all the different things about international

⏹️ ▶️ John business manufacturing. I’m confident that he’s an expert in those areas, but in these other areas I feel like he is

⏹️ ▶️ John doing what a lot of other normal CEOs do, which is relaying the result

⏹️ ▶️ John of discussions with the lower level experts in the company who are at a tier below

⏹️ ▶️ John him or a tier below them. I don’t know. It

⏹️ ▶️ John does sound right. It sounds like a summary to me of previous discussions.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you left it up to Tim Cook what things would be allowed to be in settings and what things wouldn’t be, I feel

⏹️ ▶️ John like he would make bad decisions in one direction or another. He would

⏹️ ▶️ John have very few settings, but they would be the wrong settings, or he would have no settings and that’s untenable, just ask Marco. Or he would

⏹️ ▶️ John have too many settings. The whole settings thing, this

⏹️ ▶️ John could be a whole separate topic. The reason we talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John it is because it’s not easy. You can’t just give a rule like, oh, you should have no settings, or you should have as few settings as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ John You have to have just the exact right settings. And you have to know, and it’s kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ John a gut feeling or whatever, what are the right settings to have? What is important? What isn’t? Because we all know that

⏹️ ▶️ John the settings in an application can make or break it, right? It doesn’t mean you have to have a lot of them. But if you don’t know what

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re doing, yeah, then you end up with a lot of them. And it’s like, well, at least everyone who needs to change something can change the thing they want to

⏹️ ▶️ John change. And that’s pretty terrible, right? But by the same token, if you put in the wrong settings, there’s only three settings and they’re the wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John ones. It’s like, man, this app would be perfect if I could only do X. And it doesn’t have to be

⏹️ ▶️ John a frivolous thing. It could be something, you know, important. Like it totally breaks the way I work with this application

⏹️ ▶️ John because it doesn’t, you know, I can’t change this particular behavior and it drives me insane.

⏹️ ▶️ John And then the application is no good for you. And everyone’s got one of those and you can’t include everybody. So like, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the art of it, figuring out for the most people, these are the top five most important things

⏹️ ▶️ John that should be settings because neither decision is clearly the right thing to do, and that’s what I’m going to go with. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that is sort of an art more than anything else. So when I hear like a manager-y type person giving a pat answer, like, oh, they

⏹️ ▶️ John pay us to make decisions for them. And I know some people want settings, but most people don’t. And people applaud

⏹️ ▶️ John that. I’m like, that’s like a platitude. It’s not, you know, if I know that’s backed

⏹️ ▶️ John by the good taste to know which ones to set, then that’s fine. But if I just hear it in isolation,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, well, you know, I’m not impressed by that statement.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m being mean to Tim Cook. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t know. Well, no, I don’t think you’re being mean to Tim Cook. But what I think is hard is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to realize, or at least hard for me anyway, is to realize that Tim may not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be the man that knows that, unlike Steve, but he’s smart enough to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey find the person, man or woman, that can make that call and empower them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do so. And I think giving Johnny, Ive, and Craig Federici

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a little bit more control is evidence of that. That I think Tim knows that he’s not that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guy, but he will empower the guy or girl that is that guy or girl.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did that make any sense at all?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, like he’s got it. It’s unfair to him because he, only one guy can be on that stage and it’s got to be him. So he has

⏹️ ▶️ John to speak for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey the whole

⏹️ ▶️ John company, right? I mean, like you said, we’re just kind of spoiled by Steve Jobs where he could speak about that particular

⏹️ ▶️ John topic. Like, it was the reverse with Steve Jobs. When Steve Jobs would talk about, like, supply chains and inventory

⏹️ ▶️ John and transactions, then you could tell he was not talking about something that he was deeply knowledgeable about, but he was merely

⏹️ ▶️ John channeling Tim Cook, and it’s weird to see that reversed now, you know, when Tim is talking about financial

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff and supply chains. That’s like him talking, and the other times it’s him representing the rest

⏹️ ▶️ John of the company.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think, first of all, I think it’s worth pointing out that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Steve did make tons of bad decisions. And he did often rely on the people below him

⏹️ ▶️ Marco arguing with him until he relented. And sometimes he didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco relent and shipped bad decisions to the public and then had to go back on those.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, you know, there’s that. Anyway, I think, Sean, I think you’re being a little bit mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to Tim Cook here. I think, you know, you look at this guy talk and I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know I’m about halfway through the video I read the live stream last night as it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happening but the last year really does not capture it very well first of all the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco live streams generally paraphrase they don’t they don’t usually say the exact words because they usually can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep up and and so you know you could it helps to watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the video to really get an idea of what he said exactly what he said and how he said it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you look at this guy speak and he is a rock I mean he he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is rock stable rock solid he was the same with Congress like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t make this guy flinch and I think if he was if he was mainly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just repeating things he was told or things he had been taught by the by the by the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lower-down people about the product philosophies and stuff I don’t think he would be quite as solid

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when talking about them And I think you’d see him doing a lot more misstatements

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or kind of awkward, clumsy handling of the statements. But he doesn’t do that. He’s rock solid. And so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think he really has internalized everything he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needs to internalize to be the CEO of a product-focused company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this. I really think that he knows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot more and that he has a lot more of these sensibilities than you give him credit for here.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, what I’m looking for is basically like, you know, I don’t think he doubts any that he’s shaking

⏹️ ▶️ John on any of the principles. But when it comes down to it, as I said, the tricky part about this is not this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Unlike a lot of the economic stuff is not a science. It’s more of an art. And he’s not the

⏹️ ▶️ John one with that gut feeling that is going to drive the company. As you said, you know, Steve Jobs has got

⏹️ ▶️ John was wrong plenty of times, too. But for the most part, in the big sweeping decisions like we should make a teal

⏹️ ▶️ John computer, we should make a music player, and it should be like this, and we should get into phones, and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not going to ship until it’s good enough for me. In the big things, his gut was what

⏹️ ▶️ John drove these things. So it’s one thing to say this abstract philosophy of,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ll make decisions for you and choose what needs to be in the application and what doesn’t. And it’s another thing to know

⏹️ ▶️ John that that is also the guy whose gut is going to guide big, sweeping things

⏹️ ▶️ John like, what is Mac OS X going to look like? the fact that it was all crazy and blue and shiny or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? Was that the right thing to do? The wrong thing to do? I mean, your gut can be wrong about these things,

⏹️ ▶️ John and he’s not the guy with that, right? That’s true. Even though he understands the

⏹️ ▶️ John principles. Like I said, I think it’s basically the reverse of Jobs, because whenever Jobs talked about the economic stuff, he was a smart guy,

⏹️ ▶️ John he knew all the principles, but when it came down to it, to decide which supplier should do what and how much of

⏹️ ▶️ John the flash memory should be pre-buy and is this a good deal, or are we going to be saddled with tons of LCDs that don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ John or should we wait for this? He wasn’t the guy to make that call, but he just understood all the underlying

⏹️ ▶️ John concepts. And it’s probably true that Tim Cook is much, like you said, much more solid

⏹️ ▶️ John when talking about topics that he’s not the super duper expert in than Jobs was, because when Jobs did talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John economics, he sounded more like he was somebody merely parroting things that he learned from other people, even though he also probably

⏹️ ▶️ John understood them. But I think the thing that is in Tim Cook’s favor during this entire

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, and especially I think back to last year’s WWE DC, which I probably came across in the keynote But

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean we were there we saw him as a spec on the stage or whatever But you can kind of feel it in the room that that Tim Cook

⏹️ ▶️ John is Has the same enthusiasm and passion and he’s not faking it that Steve Jobs had for these things I think about the time

⏹️ ▶️ John when he was on stage talking about like the the blind guy using the iPad to like walk around the woods And everything

⏹️ ▶️ John he’s unless he is an Academy Award-winning actor He was not faking like the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John that that made him feel like what he’s doing with his career and life is meaningful, right? More so than

⏹️ ▶️ John all the stuff they ask about market share and different models of phones or whatever, he is really, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John touched by the idea that the things he’s making are changing the world in a touchy-feely, Apple, you know, goofy kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John way. And that, I think, is his best asset as CEO.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, okay, second best. Second to his, you know, expertise in the job that he had

⏹️ ▶️ John before he was CEO is the fact that he really is enthusiastic about this stuff and he’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not he’s not a bean counter and he’s not just out there to sort of steer a ship

⏹️ ▶️ John and or like he’s not just a manager for a manager’s sake

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right

⏹️ ▶️ John why he left compact or wherever he was before you know why

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco why John

⏹️ ▶️ John Sculley left Pepsi you know you don’t sell sugar water you want to come with Steve and change the world

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well I’m with Tim too I think we’ve really seen over the last year especially we’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really seen him just develop this incredible image

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of just not only being an absolute rock about everything and you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is this is definitely a guy you’d want running your company but you can also tell that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a he’s not an idiot on any level like you know like to use a Steve Jobs where like he’s not a bozo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all like you can tell this guy is sharp and knows exactly what he’s doing but he’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco also and he has he’s very deliberate in what he does you know it doesn’t it doesn’t feel like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he’s like you know throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks it seems like he’s really being very deliberate about everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he does but also he projects a very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just a very nice personality when he speaks publicly he he seems he seems extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco polite well-spoken personable but still firm and strong

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so I think he has like the perfect image of what you’d want a CEO of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an important company to have.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey He’s extremely deliberate in the way he speaks as well. Something I wish I could be better about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is taking a moment to think about what you were going to say, especially in like a one-on-one conversation.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey This podcast is a little bit different, but if you’re in a serious conversation, say,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey remember that I do consulting for a living, so say I’m at a client and they ask me a question, My

⏹️ ▶️ Casey natural inclination is to fire off an answer immediately. And one thing that I respect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey deeply about Tim is that he will sit there and allow a silence so he can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey collect his thoughts and make sure that his answer is a great one, not just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a good one, not just an acceptable one, but a great

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John one.

⏹️ ▶️ John That was a big Steve Jobsism. Steve Jobs would just let that pause. And at a certain point when Steve Jobs did

⏹️ ▶️ John it, you wondered, is he pausing to gather his thoughts or is now is this is kind of a head game where

⏹️ ▶️ John he’s pausing. Like he already knows what he’s going to say, but he’s just like, a little longer. Like in

⏹️ ▶️ John that, what was that, WOC 1998 or whatever thing where he was doing Q&A and the guy asked him

⏹️ ▶️ John the obnoxious question about, I forget what the obnoxious question is, like, it was clear that you don’t know what you’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ John or, say he was angry about OpenDoc or something or whatever. And he just, the pause after that, I should time it in the video,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like so long where he’s waiting for the response there. If I could think

⏹️ ▶️ John of a couple more mean things to say about Tim Cook, it’s not mean, it’s just like we’re all comparing to Steve Jobs, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John With any kind of powerful person speaking publicly, you

⏹️ ▶️ John basically get two choices. You get the guy who really truly believes

⏹️ ▶️ John what he’s saying and is earnest about it, and the guy who says exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John the right thing but gives some kind of hint that he also knows that

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s BS. example is we didn’t get to talk about this the congressional thing where Tim Cook is up there explaining Apple’s business

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything and Tim Cook did nothing wrong like he did exactly what you’re supposed to do and

⏹️ ▶️ John I can’t decide I actually I can’t decide for me I think it’s worse to be the guy who really

⏹️ ▶️ John believes that everything you’re telling Congress is the 100% straight honest truth like

⏹️ ▶️ John you know the fact that he’d never mentioned why they have these things overseas and how it’s a tax avoidance scheme

⏹️ ▶️ John and stuff like that like everything he said was true it was just sort of of an error of omission.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I feel more comfortable, like if Steve Jobs was doing it, he would make it clear that

⏹️ ▶️ John everyone knows this is BS, because everyone watching knows it’s BS, Congress knows it’s BS, Tim Cook knows, we all know it’s like kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of a, it’s theater, right? But sometimes I think that Tim, for a second or

⏹️ ▶️ John two, I think that Tim Cook really believes what he’s saying. I’m like, wait a second, he knows what’s really, you know, he’s no dummy, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John all in on this or whatever. But he’s so earnest, and you’re like, oh my maybe he really believes that

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe you know I’m like no come on he doesn’t really and to me that’s worse I would rather have like

⏹️ ▶️ John the guy who’s in on the sort of shared uh delusion that we’re all you know

⏹️ ▶️ John the suspension of disbelief for this theater type thing than the true believer type thing because the second

⏹️ ▶️ John Tim Cook really believes that uh everything he omitted in discussing

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple’s various tax shelters doesn’t exist then we know you know we’re in

⏹️ ▶️ John trouble and maybe that’s Maybe that’s just testament to how incredibly earnest and honest, like for a second he can make me believe

⏹️ ▶️ John that he really believes it, but I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know. Before we exit the Tim Cook, all things D topic,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do want to point out also that a lot of people have said, oh, he hasn’t really said anything here, he didn’t say anything new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or he didn’t learn anything. And I think that’s all crap. I think he said quite a lot. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he said it in the Apple way and in the Tim Cook way, but I think he

⏹️ ▶️ Marco said quite a lot of interesting things.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s Kremlinology. I mean, we’re all like, if you go back, I would watch the Steve Jobs one, and you’re all just looking to see, like, he’s never

⏹️ ▶️ John going to say say it. So there’s reporters who have no idea about, you know, just generic reporters like,

⏹️ ▶️ John they go through it and go, oh, it doesn’t seem like he said anything. But for people who are following every single, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John every single fart that comes out of Apple, when you ask him, you know, what do you think about big screens?

⏹️ ▶️ John And I guess you guys are making one or whatever. And the first thing that out of his mouth is as well, we’re not making one yet. I mean, like, that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John answer. Like, that is the biggest answer

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re ever going to get out of anything. Like, even Steve Jobs was never that open, even on his wildest days. Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John And what he’s saying is perfectly clear. We’re not making one yet, we’re not ruling it out for the future, whatever. He doesn’t say that

⏹️ ▶️ John if they don’t have a larger screen phone, like, in the planning stages already. And

⏹️ ▶️ John little things like that were dropped everywhere about, you know, timelining the television, timelining

⏹️ ▶️ John anything that’s wearable. It reminds me of Steve Jobs way,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t remember when I was, way before the iPhone, like five years or something before that, when

⏹️ ▶️ John people were asking Apple about PDAs. That was the big thing to do. It’s like, is Apple going to make a PDA? They

⏹️ ▶️ John tried to buy Palm or Handspring or something and been rebuffed. I don’t know that they ever announced that. It was all secret

⏹️ ▶️ John rumors and stuff. People kept asking about PDAs. At a certain point,

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple would give answers and no comments or whatever. But at a certain point, Steve Jobs said to some reporter, we really believe that

⏹️ ▶️ John phones are where the future of this business is going to be. Boom, Apple’s making a phone. Like, that’s all you needed.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s why for years, my friends and I were like, you know, when is the iPhone coming? And we would just call it the

⏹️ ▶️ John iPhone, because it was the iMac and the iPad. When is the iPhone coming? And then we started to lose faith. We’re like, maybe they’re never going

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a phone. It’s been such a long time. But back then, when you make a

⏹️ ▶️ John statement like that to a reporter, you might as well just come out and say exactly what you’re doing. I guess reporters can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John report on it because it would be, you know, he didn’t really say that, but

⏹️ ▶️ John for people reading the tea leaves, it’s all out there in the open in his answers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say specifically, he seemed to confirm, in his Tim Cook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and in the Apple way, he seemed to confirm that they are working on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of watch-like device that includes multiple types of sensors and serves multiple functions.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Didn’t you get that impression

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John from what he said? Wearable oh

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah that wearable stuff. I think there might be something to that. It’s a really interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco area

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Can’t just do one thing and it has to have multiple sensors He’s he’s looking to replace

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Nike fuel band on his wrist.

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s like describing his product obliquely at that

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco point right I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that was a very a very clear not not even a hint that was like beating

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you over the head We are doing something like a watch. That’s gonna have multiple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John sensors That combined

⏹️ ▶️ John with the entering new product categories for the earning call. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco possibly as soon as this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fall, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John seems.

⏹️ ▶️ John The people freak out about it, like we did with the phone thing. The phone didn’t come out for five years or whatever it was. It was some insane

⏹️ ▶️ John amount. It seemed like forever. It doesn’t mean that the watch is coming out next week. That’s the problem with

⏹️ ▶️ John the echo chamber of the news, like, oh, a watch is coming. It’s going to come out any second.

⏹️ ▶️ John The timelines in these things are huge. You just read the tea leaves to see, all right, is this something that Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John even looking at? because if you had asked him if Apple was thinking of making a car, his answer would have not been, the car

⏹️ ▶️ John airspace is really interesting, I think a car made by Apple could be really interesting and it would have to use multiple sensors

⏹️ ▶️ John for… No! He would say, no we’re not interested, like, it’s a different answer, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John All it does is tell you that something that you wear, that you purchase from Apple that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not a clip-on iPod shuffle is potentially in the future of this company and tells you nothing about the timeline

⏹️ ▶️ John other than it’s probably not a decade from now.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But even on the timeline, I think he was pretty clear that we’re going to see a new category from Apple this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fall or early next year.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that could have been the TV had he not put the kibosh on that in his answers at the Deconference,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? You know, because like, the earnings call was like, new category, and everyone’s like, okay, is the new category TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John which has been rumored for a really long time, or is the new category something that you wear, which has also been rumored? And then

⏹️ ▶️ John fast forward to the conference, he gets asked both questions, gives very different answers, and you’re like, all right, I guess it’s the thing you

⏹️ ▶️ John wear.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, didn’t he, was it him that said that nobody wears watches anymore?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but what was interesting, he said, like the live streams kind of transcribed this quickly, but what he actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco said was like, For something

⏹️ ▶️ John to work here, you first have to convince people it’s so incredible

⏹️ ▶️ John that they want to wear it because we’re, you two guys are wearing watches.

⏹️ ▶️ John If we had a room full of 10 to 20 year

⏹️ ▶️ John olds and we said, everybody stand up that has

⏹️ ▶️ John a watch on, I’m not sure anybody would stand up. I don’t see it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 10 to 20 year olds. I mean, yeah, okay, so the guy deals with data. That sounded a lot like they did a survey.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It sounded like that was data that they had looked up already.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the kind of thing that Steve would just kind of wing from his you know from his

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John gut

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think Tim he was talking as though they were already looking into this and he like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the comments about multiple sensors and about glasses sucking I really think he was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty clearly telling us there’s gonna be something here

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Apple under Steve Jobs

⏹️ ▶️ John did do lots of market research Jobs liked the downplayed and he would say they didn’t do focus groups for the other design which is

⏹️ ▶️ John true but the best example I can think of that is speaking of nobody wears watches anymore is when people were asking

⏹️ ▶️ John about, is Apple going to do some pre-iPad? Is Apple going to do some sort of reading device or whatever?

⏹️ ▶️ John And he said, nobody reads anymore. And then he threw out a couple of statistics.

⏹️ ▶️ John The only way he would know those statistics off the top of his head is from Apple’s own market research that

⏹️ ▶️ John they had done in the planning stages for making the iPad, which was so clearly in development then. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John by quoting a statistic that is supposed to be shooting

⏹️ ▶️ John down the argument of the person who’s saying, oh, you should make this thing. Oh, nobody reads anymore. People say that, you know, surveys

⏹️ ▶️ John show that people from this age group, I forget what statistic you threw out, but like, you don’t know that statistic off the top

⏹️ ▶️ John of your head if you had not investigated it. So it’s the same type of thing, yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did do market research, they continue to do market research to see, you know, to decide what kind of product they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna make. I don’t know if Tim does more of it than Steve. I know Steve definitely wanted to downplay the idea

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s anything other than springing from their creativity.

⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, they’re a big company. Of course, they do market research. So I’m sure they know exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John how many people of what age wear watches or would be willing to wear something, and so on.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, right. And to that end, when he says, if you have a room full, was it 10 20-year-olds or 10 to 20-year-olds?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It doesn’t matter. I’ll have to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco rewind. I think it was 10 to 20-year-olds.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 10 to 20-year-olds.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But to be honest, it doesn’t matter. The point I’m driving at is, when he says, oh, nobody in the 10 to 20 year old range or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever the statistic was wears a watch, is that like a Barney Stinson challenge accepted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey moment or is that him saying, no, really, nobody wants a watch and there’s nothing we can do to stop it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco starting. What he was saying, the theme of what he was saying was basically that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re going to convince people to wear a watch, it has to be really, really good. that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what’s on the market now in the field of smart watches is not good enough to convince people to wear a watch who weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already and who weren’t nerds like you know people who are buying Google Glass and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so it sounded like it sounded like what he was saying was a combination of Google Glass

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a total flop and nobody will wear it and we think there’s something to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be had in the watch area but nothing else out there is good enough yet which is typical Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff just stuff to say before they enter a market.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right that’s exactly my point is they’re saying well right now it all sucks but you know the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey underlying you know under your breath comment is oh but we’ll show you exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like like men’s hats you know whatever the 40s were all you know you

⏹️ ▶️ John look at those old movies all the men on the street in New York City were all wearing hats right and then eventually that fell out

⏹️ ▶️ John of favor and then nobody wears a hat to work you know like it and in fact it would be rude to wear a hat to work if you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John like a baseball hat or something right so you know men’s dress hats and I guess women’s dress hats to some degree

⏹️ ▶️ John fell out of fashion so if you had asked you know 60 years ago how many men wore a

⏹️ ▶️ John hat today on their way to work all their hands ago well I think watches are like that in part because you know I think actually

⏹️ ▶️ John started with pagers remember when people just started looking at the pagers to see what time it was

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right

⏹️ ▶️ John once you had some other way to tell what time it was other than a watch watches

⏹️ ▶️ John changed from this practical thing that you had to wear so you got places on time into merely like

⏹️ ▶️ John jewelry, like a fashion accessory. And people still do wear watches, but even the people

⏹️ ▶️ John who do, I wonder if they still pick up their phone to tell what time it is, right? So like him saying, you know, oh people don’t wear watches

⏹️ ▶️ John is because like the function of a watch is a timekeeper that goes on your wrist. We don’t need

⏹️ ▶️ John that anymore because that functionality has been subsumed in these other smart devices. But

⏹️ ▶️ John if we can make something that you can put on your wrist that suddenly does have value to you beyond just telling you what time it was, then

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe that would be a good thing. So he’s saying there’s all those wrists out there that don’t have watches on because watches are

⏹️ ▶️ John not worth the time, not worth putting on your wrist. Those wrists are just waiting there

⏹️ ▶️ John for something, and it doesn’t have to be wrists, who knows where these things are going to be attached to your body, but something that you wear, probably

⏹️ ▶️ John yes, probably on your wrist. That’s what he’s saying with that answer is all those

⏹️ ▶️ John wrists out there are just crying out for something really cool from Apple to stick on them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do either one of you guys wear a watch?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John No.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I did until, I’d say, a couple of years ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’ve always enjoyed them, and I’ve always told myself that if I ever hit it big and sell

⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything that I own, ahem, that I would get myself a stupidly expensive watch,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and by that I mean like several hundred dollars as opposed to twenty. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I keep telling myself I want to buy myself a watch, and I haven’t worn one in a few years,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m too cheap to buy one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey this guy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the in the old tumblr office. I don’t want to say who he was in case it would cause any problems but there was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this guy who who shared the office and and he had a watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco dealer come in like twice a year to show him like these like new fancy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like really like $10,000 watches and it’s like you know this this like you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of short thick guy with like a nondescript briefcase would come in open up the briefcase and show off you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know 30 gram with the watches right there and it was like it’s like this whole cult of like watch people

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco oh it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like camera people but even more so because cameras have more of a function like yeah once they tell

⏹️ ▶️ John time beyond that everything else is basically just fashion yeah and although I was just

⏹️ ▶️ John on podcast with guy and Renee and I don’t remember if this part of it was

⏹️ ▶️ John after the recording had ended if they’ll stick it in so you can forgive me for repeating it but we were talking about the watch thing

⏹️ ▶️ John and what I said to them was that This is such a dangerous area

⏹️ ▶️ John for Apple or any other company because once you put something on your

⏹️ ▶️ John body in a way that counts as wearing, you enter this whole other realm

⏹️ ▶️ John of crazy, illogical, nonsensical, ego-entangled

⏹️ ▶️ John decision-making. Because, you know, the iPod Shuffle, you clip onto your clothes. And most people

⏹️ ▶️ John would say you are not wearing an iPod Shuffle. It’s like, oh, it’s just my iPod, but it attaches to my clothing

⏹️ ▶️ John for convenient carrying. But once you have something that, oh, I’m wearing this, then,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, forget it. It’s like, many people will take an electronic device, carry

⏹️ ▶️ John it in their pocket, or even clip it to their clothes. But the thing that people are willing to wear that is acknowledged

⏹️ ▶️ John as a wearing thing is Totally dictated by things that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John really doesn’t have any control over and I’m sure Apple’s up to the challenge But what a challenge that is

⏹️ ▶️ John Give me something that I will want to wear because if then it becomes a fashion statement

⏹️ ▶️ John an expression of self Much more so than even carrying a laptop or a phone even those

⏹️ ▶️ John those things do you know you carry a part of your image? With that thing I feel like wearing is like the next level

⏹️ ▶️ John and because basically if you make this thing ugly in the opinion of some buyer.

⏹️ ▶️ John They’re going to be like, this is the most awesome device ever. I think it’s awesome, but I’m not going to wear it. And that’s part of the Google

⏹️ ▶️ John Glass thing, because that’s wearing. Once you put that thing on your head, that counts as wearing something.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if it looks awkward or geeky and gives you a weird image, no matter how awesome it is, you’re just going to be like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, I mean, it’s hard for me to relate, because everything I own is unfashionable and ugly, and that makes me

⏹️ ▶️ John look stupid. But other people have lots of their self-image tied up into looking good.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you have to sort of, I guess, it’s like not step on those landmines

⏹️ ▶️ John to get a product into their hands that they’re willing to wear. Lots of nerds are willing. I mean, look at the people willing to wear glass.

⏹️ ▶️ John Some people just have no barrier. Like sure, I’ll put anything on if it has some practical value.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco You should get Google Glass, John.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or futuristic. Even I have my limits. But yeah, and

⏹️ ▶️ John that is such a dangerous part about wearable tech. And I don’t know how Apple in particular is going to navigate that, because

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re not going to make 700 models of this. Samsung is going to make 700 models of the ripoff product, right? And you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be able to find one that works for you. It’s the same thing with phone cases, right? Even though you don’t wear

⏹️ ▶️ John a phone, people buy the phone but then there’s a bazillion cases and some of the cases you find hideous but other people love.

⏹️ ▶️ John Rhinestone encrusted things or wooden cases or things that look like they’re made of Legos or brushed

⏹️ ▶️ John metal, like that’s how people are able to even come to terms with the things they carry a lot of the time. If you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do something similar to something that you wear, Apple’s gonna be in trouble because no matter how neutral and tasteful they

⏹️ ▶️ John make it, some person’s going to say, I wouldn’t wear that. I won’t wear that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, but you’re also not considering that I think Apple at the moment anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is more than not very trendy. And so it’s trendy and kind of cool now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have a silver laptop with a piece of fruit shining

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the lid. And I could swear that I had read stories years ago that people would connect

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPod earbuds or iPhone earbuds to non Non Apple devices

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just so they also had the white crap

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John dangling. Yeah No,

⏹️ ▶️ John they would do that. But like I that’s what I’m saying I think like there is a part of personal expression

⏹️ ▶️ John embodied in Fashionable electronic devices that you carry and this is like the next level

⏹️ ▶️ John because you’re not just carrying this you’re wearing it Like it’s so crazy. Like think about shoes, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know How crazy people are about the shoes they’re willing and not willing to wear how many times you see somebody else’s shoes and you think?

⏹️ ▶️ John like, man, I would never wear those shoes. But the person wearing those loves those shoes. They paid 300

⏹️ ▶️ John bucks for them, right? It’s such an incredible range, and people will reject products

⏹️ ▶️ John that are perfectly good in every possible way, because they’ll just say, I can’t wear that. I won’t wear that.

⏹️ ▶️ John And yeah, it’ll be really interesting to see how Apple navigates this, because these are extremely

⏹️ ▶️ John dangerous waters.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They are. But if you think about Apple’s normal devices, they’re extremely simple and tasteful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and generally speaking look good. Surely not to everyone, but generally speaking, there’s not a lot to them,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they’re not very flashy, and they just look good. And so, I actually, I do agree with you, and I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that this is a whole new territory they’re not used to, but I also think that they’ll probably navigate these waters pretty darn

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, if they do the naked robotic core thing again, I mean, like I said, it’s work for them with the phone. Because like you said, oh, they make something

⏹️ ▶️ John tasteful, very unadorned, very subdued or whatever, but some people want it to be pink and

⏹️ ▶️ John rhinestone encrusted. So there better be a way for me to take a pink rhinestone and shove them all over the Apple iWatch,

⏹️ ▶️ John otherwise I’m not wearing that thing, because it looks just so boring and ugly and looks like a techno-bobble and mine needs to have rhinestones

⏹️ ▶️ John because I’m fabulous, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, I cannot wait to see you with your pink rhinestone-encrusted watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am extremely excited for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it’ll go great with my Motorola clamshell phone. Now with color screen.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, God.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is what happens when you get three nerds talking about fashion.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, it never ends well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fantastic

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco goodness let’s we should do our next sponsor I was just about to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ask the good time all right our next sponsor it they need no introduction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and but the sad thing is that won’t apply to all of you because there are still people out there who have not bought this yet it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco silver I don’t know if it’s pronounced silver I say solver in my head but I saw says that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oxygen in my head so my head’s not always right I guess it’s silver so it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco s-o-u-l-v-e-r and what this is this This is an app for the Mac,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhone, and iPad. They told me to just wing it because they knew I’m a massive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fan of this, so they didn’t even give me a script. Solver is basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a hybrid between a calculator, a notepad, and a spreadsheet.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you can kind of think of that. If you just search my site for Solver, you’ll see I’ve posted about it like 10

⏹️ ▶️ Marco times over the years. Oh my god, you have to get…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if I’m working, I have this app open. I have it open now. Even for a pocket. I always

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have it open. What I suggest you do, download this app. I’m pretty sure there’s a trial.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They didn’t even tell me. I should probably go look that up. I’m pretty sure, yes, there is a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trial. Download the app. Give it a shot. What you want to do is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just, once you install this app, even just the trial, just hide calculator. If

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have it in your dock, take it out of your doc, never launch calculator again. And I suggest trying it on the Mac first, because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s really, in my opinion, that’s where I use it the most, that’s where it’s best. Try it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out instead of calculator. And any time you would try to figure out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some little computation, type it into a scratch silver document instead. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once you start using it for like a day, you will very, you will instantly realize, oh my God, why have I been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using stupid calculator apps besides this all these years? Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco why have I taken so long to find this app? It’s basically a scratch pad for numbers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I started using this, I don’t know, 2005 or something like that. They’ve been around forever. I started using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it forever ago. And ever since

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I started using it, I hardly ever use spreadsheets anymore. And I never use calculator anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is, and it’s for programmers, for people who are just doing simple calculations.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you’re the kind of person who has ever launched the calculator app on your computer, you can probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use this and you can probably benefit from it. So it’s called Solver, S-O-L-V-E-R.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s 20 bucks in the Mac App Store or directly from their site. They also have some volume license discounts.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can get, for instance, a four computer household pack for only 25 bucks. You

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can get volume licenses. This is the kind of thing, like, if I was running a business with employees, which I I guess I won’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do because I apparently hate doing that. But if I was running a business with employees, I would buy one of these for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every employee and just have it just hide calculator on the computers through some kind of like group IT policy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and put this on there instead. Really it’s that good. So they also have for iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now I use it for iOS, although I will say I use it for Mac more. But in iOS it’s really great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, on the iPad, there is no built-in calculator from Apple. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you need to install something if you ever need a calculator. will install this it’s awesome for lots of different things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s all and you know they it does formulas it does very you can use variables you can use simple logic you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use labels I mean it’s really an extremely high functioning application

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for for doing any kind of you know number scratchpad work it’s it’s just so good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything anything that you would otherwise use a simple spreadsheet for like oh let me figure out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know what my s3 costs are gonna be this month for my bandwidth like I just use solver it’s so it’s just so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco perfect for this so So anyway, it’s five bucks for iPad, it’s three bucks for iPhone. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even use it, I know this is going on long, but I even use it as a scoreboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I’m playing games in real life. Like if you’re playing 500 Rummy with people, playing any kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco table game, you need some way to keep score between rounds, I type things into Solver. Every person will have a line

⏹️ ▶️ Marco labeled with their initials or their name, and then I’ll just do score plus. And every single time there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a round, I’ll add another one to their name. You can always see, leave it out, you can always see what everyone’s total is and what each round was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco before that. There’s just so many uses for this app. I use it constantly. Go get silver,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco please. For the love of all that is good, go get silver. It is that good. You need you need this app.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s by Aqualia. And it’s I’m not even gonna try to spell it. I’ll put in the show notes. It’s Aqualia

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comm slash silver, so you lv er, or find it in the Mac App Store or the iOS App Store.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks to silver for sponsoring.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So not to pile on at all. But Solver, Solver, whatever it’s called, is one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the few apps that triple-dipped. In other words, I had to pay on all three platforms,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I didn’t feel bad about it, because it really is that good. And the other thing that I wanted to point out is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know how a lot of people, ourselves included, have complained and moaned about how when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re building a calculator app for a computer, you don’t really… And actually, Marko, you wrote wrote a post about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this, I think. You don’t want to be encumbered by what’s physical.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And Solver or Solver or whatever is a great midway between a spreadsheet and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a calculator. And they were able to do that because they chucked out all the cruft and old stuff from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the physical world and just made something that’s really great in the computing world. Now that I think of it, I just totally stole a blog post,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I? Yeah, that’s entirely my blog post. But yeah, I believe I called it overdoing the interface metaphor.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John idea,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this was like back before most skeuomorphism debates, but the idea was like, you know, if you make a computer calculator,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t want to bring over like a big grid of buttons that you have to click on and then one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a single line display. Like that’s stupid. You know, the computers can do so much more than that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you just let them, you know, and so Solver is it’s a calculator app that was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clearly designed for computers and not designed to try to mimic what old calculators

⏹️ ▶️ Marco used to be. It was designed for what computers can actually do and do well and and you know it’s also it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a and it’s a document based app on the Mac and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forget, I don’t know if the iOS versions are document based, I’m pretty sure they are, and because what that means

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is on the Mac you get all of the line and mountain line, you know, auto save and version support and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uses iCloud to sync everything and it actually works. I’ve tried it between my laptop and my computer, it’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really, it’s just a fantastic app. And the guys even told me, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you can probably sell it better than we can. and i think i i’ve basically devoted every chance i get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over the last few years to talk about is that i devoted to trying to convince the world please for the love of god just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use this app it trust me it is that good and i mean even like when when the mac app store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco came out i bought it even though i already owned it by part of the mac app store just to a give them more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco money and be have a quick way to install it but after any reinstall or any other computer that i have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh… it it really is that good

⏹️ ▶️ John i can’t believe that you guys that long for the skewered to come up I would have led with that. Basically,

⏹️ ▶️ John the calculator is to skeuomorphism, as this is to the opposite of that. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I’m also a big fan,

⏹️ ▶️ John although I pronounce it solver, because I like that better. The other thing I’ll add is

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason I use this app all the time, and I actually use the dashboard widget of another skeuomorphic

⏹️ ▶️ John calculator occasionally, but I also have solver open all the time, although I just quit it before launching Skype,

⏹️ ▶️ John because I wanted to free up some memory to make sure Skype feels good is that this thing also does

⏹️ ▶️ John the stuff that you might find yourself typing into Google for and I use it to do math in a lazy way

⏹️ ▶️ John like I write 27 is the percentage of 359 write that into

⏹️ ▶️ John solver and it gives you the answer you could do that math yourself we all know basic algebra you can do division multiplication

⏹️ ▶️ John and figure it out but you know did I do the division wrong or did I put the wrong thing in the right place or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John you can do 5300 bytes squared in kilobytes and it will do the

⏹️ ▶️ John conversions for you and give you it does

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh, yeah, there’s unit conversions. There’s stock price lookups. Unit conversions.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the feature I like about it the best is that thing where you can write in a single English sentence

⏹️ ▶️ John that expresses what you want to know, and it will just give you the answer of it. And I find it faster to go to Solver than to

⏹️ ▶️ John go to Google Search Box and type these things

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in. Right,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s a native app. It’s all right there. It’s all running already. And it’s just a text box. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John great.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think it is the one app where I find AutoSave the most satisfying. Because before AutoSave,

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t like the fact that it had the little modified dot, and I would quit. And they would ask me to save, and I was like, just save

⏹️ ▶️ John everything all the time, and now it does. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s fantastic, really. I mean, it’s hard to describe how good it is in just one ad spot, which is why this is taking us so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco long. But believe me, you’ve got to try this app. It’s so good. And the people who develop it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seem like really nice guys. I’ve talked to them a lot over email in the last five years or so. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you just want to support this. And they’re always putting out updates to fix any little problems that come up, although honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve rarely ever seen a problem. I mean, it’s just so good. It’s one of those apps that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, it’s like your text editor of choice. It’s like one of those apps that you can look at whatever you spend on this and say,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this has helped me make so much more money than whatever it costs. Like this is so worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the minimal price I paid for it once years ago, because it’s that important to what I do.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so lest us continue to talk about this fantastic app the rest of the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In terms of timely topics, The only one I’ve got left is WWDC, but I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had a proper think about what predictions I want to be wrong about. So is there anything that you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two wanted to bring up?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah, because that’s coming up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we’ve only got, next week should be our predictions show. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I didn’t want to do that today, but can if we have to. And I’ll be even more wrong if we do it today.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know if I’m right. It’s much better to do the prediction show right before WWDC, because then we have the highest

⏹️ ▶️ John chance of being right.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Right.

⏹️ ▶️ John You want to cheat and wait for all of the last bits

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and bursts. Well, honestly, do you think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything’s going to change between this week and next week with predictions? No, but

⏹️ ▶️ John our knowledge of it, yeah, but there’ll be something. All the obvious things that are in the invitation

⏹️ ▶️ John is like, oh, I bet they’ll show the new version of iOS in Mac OS X. That’s great. But

⏹️ ▶️ John we want to know what else. Is there anything else? Or what are the features? Do we get a leaked

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS 7 screenshot somewhere, some blurry image of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something else? Haswell notebooks?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Is that now, or is it going to be announced, or is it going to just have a little new badge after we walk out of the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing like the Mac

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Pros did

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s not important enough? But those details will be clearer

⏹️ ▶️ John by next week, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think. I bet Haswell MacBook Pro updates would at least warrant an eight-slide Phil Schiller mention.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. No.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they spent a lot of time on the new Retinas last year, and granted that was like, it’s the first bread and you know

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac but but certainly it’s worth something some slides showing how much faster

⏹️ ▶️ John and lower power there and all that

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here’s an update to our notebook line

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John and

⏹️ ▶️ John Lord knows they’re not gonna be showing us new Mac Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco so we want some

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware some hardware that can be in a clear acrylic tube outside

⏹️ ▶️ John you know they should just put an old Mac Pro in there and see how many people gather around it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know what they should do is they should take an old Mac Pro and slap a new sticker on the side I hear that works.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think what we’re gonna, I guess this is becoming predictions anyway, I think what we’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna see is mostly the focus is gonna be on iOS 7 but I’m actually really curious

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see what we learn about Mac OS 10.9. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John because if they keep with their pattern of cat modifier cat, then this comes up

⏹️ ▶️ John as cat again, right? Like that’s, four releases

⏹️ ▶️ John is a cycle. Cat, modifier, cat. And so either they’re done with cats,

⏹️ ▶️ John or we’ve got to have a new cat. I have been since like last year,

⏹️ ▶️ John or for a long time, like I have to give a name for the thing I put in my notes file.

⏹️ ▶️ John And mine is called links, L, Y, and X. Not that I think that’s what the cat name is going to

⏹️ ▶️ John be, but when I asked my brain, well brain, you have to type in something else to be your placeholder for 10.9, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to write 10.9. I wrote in links. Because I can’t, can you even think of another? It’s like ocelot

⏹️ ▶️ John and all sorts of BS things. Either cat names are done, which I’m perfectly fine with. Good, can the cat names. I’m all for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or my brain says Lynx. So, but I have no idea what they’re going to call it. I’ve heard nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, what’s the modifier going to be then?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. Mountain Lynx. Makeup. Graphical Lynx. Snow

⏹️ ▶️ John Lynx.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Graphical Lynx.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is, you know, another reason that Lynx won’t be the name, right? But I’m happy to

⏹️ ▶️ John be done with cats.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, do you think there’s going to be a 10.10? Because maybe there won’t be a modifier cat for this next one. Maybe they will change the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco naming convention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John to not have 10.10. No,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they’ll do. Well, I think it feels like, what are they going to… To

⏹️ ▶️ John go to something where you’re like, oh, this is not 10. It’s like, this one goes to 11. If you want to do some sort of thing

⏹️ ▶️ John like that, you can’t just do that as a marketing push. There has to be something to go along with that. And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John see any kind of change that’s that radical in the 10.10 time frame.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like 10.10 should be the modifier cat release of whatever the hell they have cooked up for this thing, but who knows

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean For releases is definitely a pattern, but they break the pattern where the hell they feel like it So

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, I mean obviously for obvious reasons I’m very interested in what’s going on there, and I’m less interested in what’s going on in iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m sure iOS will be by far the more dominant focus in the news And I’m not expecting anything

⏹️ ▶️ John or shattering out of 10.9, but the question is all right well Then what the hell is it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah? that’s like I’m really curious to just see like what you know besides the name of course which is very interesting but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but what do they like what will 10.9 be for the for for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the marketing first of all like what will they market about the features of it and then you know will there be anything interesting for developers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will there be substantial improvements to the core in any in any significant way like you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know what what is there to do and it’s only been a year since mountain lion so you know now that they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on their shorter cycle so it’s It’s not going to be a massive rewrite of anything.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco there’s

⏹️ ▶️ John plenty to do. But the most interesting question is, given how much attention

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple wants to focus on OS X, what, because they can’t do everything, what things do they

⏹️ ▶️ John prioritize? Because that will sort of give you an idea of what they feel is important. Do they just

⏹️ ▶️ John do things that they would have had to do anyway because they’re changes to the core OS to benefit most OSes?

⏹️ ▶️ John With Lion Mountain Lion, they almost entirely focused on things that

⏹️ ▶️ John bring together the mental space of the Mac and iOS in terms of making the application look

⏹️ ▶️ John a certain way, having them be able to have iCloud integration, like trying to make it so, hey, you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John used your iPhone or your iPad, this Mac is not all that different. Take a look, look at the Contacts

⏹️ ▶️ John app, see how it’s kind of the same, like stuff like that. And the autosave, hey, you don’t have to save things on iOS, you know, to

⏹️ ▶️ John varying degrees of success, but that was where they were putting their energy. And they weren’t, for example, putting it into a new file

⏹️ ▶️ John system, or making the OS faster, improving the

⏹️ ▶️ John virtual memory system, changing out the kernel to have better, like all sorts of nitty gritty things that would be totally interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John to someone like me. But Apple’s saying, well, we’re not getting any bang for the buck out of that. Don’t spend all your

⏹️ ▶️ John time working on that. Instead, spend your time in this other area. So they did that with

⏹️ ▶️ John Lion, and they sort of repented a little bit with Mountain Lion, to say where they had overreached and

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of shore things up and put a third panel into the stupid book metaphor app like, well a book can

⏹️ ▶️ John have three parts right? But then one of them has to be half of it and the other one has to be 25 and 25%?

⏹️ ▶️ John Ugh. Anyway. Do they keep doing that? Or

⏹️ ▶️ John do they concentrate in a new area this time? And like Fusion Drive would have been an obvious thing but they already released

⏹️ ▶️ John that. Fusion Drive missed Mountain Lion. I feel like they wanted to get it into that. But they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, alright, well fine, screw it. Fusion Drive. It’s not tied to another Release it just appears suddenly with some

⏹️ ▶️ John new iMacs and stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well And that was also a good way to sell hardware you know like like the way Syria was tied to the 4s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know that was a good way to say Even though you can create it now on the command line

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nobody really knows that there’s no interface and disk utility and no one’s doing it really except like super

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nerds like for the most part It’s like if you want the combination of a very high speed and very high

⏹️ ▶️ Marco capacity you must buy a new iMac or Mac mini

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t I don’t I give them a pass on that because unlike the the Siri thing

⏹️ ▶️ John anything having to do with with Lola, we’ll just drive crap is really sensitive to the

⏹️ ▶️ John specific mechanism and you know drivers and everything involved there to the point where I really

⏹️ ▶️ John Believe that basically it’s not that it won’t work It’s just that they they didn’t QA it in any configuration like

⏹️ ▶️ John they only had time and you know They only QA did in these specific configurations and it probably will

⏹️ ▶️ John work perfectly fine in tons of other configurations but like whatever your SSD either does or doesn’t support the trim command

⏹️ ▶️ John or has some other feature or Ends up running to some pathological case that they never tested for

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever So I don’t I don’t blame them for being super conservative with the supported hardware there But

⏹️ ▶️ John like they didn’t hold it for the next OS release because they have this hardware They wanted to ship they just it just didn’t make it didn’t make

⏹️ ▶️ John the OS that they wanted to make like in that WWDC session They hinted it There was this thing that they

⏹️ ▶️ John would like to talk about but can’t and that was the fusion drive, right? It just missed the release. It didn’t get on

⏹️ ▶️ John the boat for that one. So they put it out mid-release. But Fusion Drive would be an awesome 10.9 feature. If

⏹️ ▶️ John they had announced that to WVDC, we’d be like, wow, this is great. 10.9’s got some really cool features. You see that Fusion Drive?

⏹️ ▶️ John But now that’s kind of spoiled by it already being out there. I mean, I’m sure they’ll have sessions on it and

⏹️ ▶️ John the support for it will be expanded and blah, blah, blah. But that kind of takes some of the wind out of its sail.

⏹️ ▶️ John And my eternal new file system thing, probably not this year either. Who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and actually, that just got me thinking, there are still a fair amount of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Macs that have platter drives, right? Because we just mentioned the Fusion Drive, which is a half platter,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well, maybe more than half platter and also an SSD. But most of the lower end

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Macs, or MacBooks and MacBook Pros, the non-Retina ones anyway, they all still

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have platter drives by default, right? So the reason I bring this up is I wonder

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if, and I’m looking mostly to John for your two cents on this. I wonder if the Mac line

⏹️ ▶️ Casey switches, well if it can, let’s assume it can, and if it switches to all flash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hard drives, would that lead to easier choices in either creating

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or picking a new file system? Whereas right now they’ve kind of got a leg in two very different worlds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey where you have to support both the comparatively old and slow platters

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as well as this brand new, well, reasonably new, I should say, flash

⏹️ ▶️ Casey system. So if everything was flash and that’s all we needed to worry

⏹️ ▶️ Casey about, would that be easier? And the corollary to that would be, would

⏹️ ▶️ Casey iOS jump to a different file system before the OS X

⏹️ ▶️ Casey does because everything on iOS is flash?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not going to jump to all flash. So they’re stuck with spinning drives for the foreseeable future.

⏹️ ▶️ John I was saying in a past episode of some podcast about what the next… Assuming there

⏹️ ▶️ John are some Mac Pros or Mac Pro-like machines or something, whatever, you know what I’m talking about, I thought

⏹️ ▶️ John that those will be Fusion Drive and you won’t have a choice. Like, you won’t be able to get it not as Fusion Drive.

⏹️ ▶️ John You won’t be able to get it as pure SSD because that storage is too small, and you won’t be able to get it without an SSD. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re getting Fusion Drive, period. Because that is their medium-term solution for

⏹️ ▶️ John make it faster, but also let people store their gigantic libraries of stuff. And that’s why they made it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Having the flash versus spinning disk, what that

⏹️ ▶️ John split is going to force them to do if they ever get off their butts is use some form of native storage on the

⏹️ ▶️ John flash. Like there are lots of other systems out there that do this type of thing. File systems

⏹️ ▶️ John are designed for spinning things with particular behaviors of access time and sequential access

⏹️ ▶️ John is faster than random and seeks really kill you. And the whole file system is laid out in such a way way to minimize those things, or hopefully

⏹️ ▶️ John laid out in a way to minimize. And all those things are either the opposite or just completely

⏹️ ▶️ John moot on SSDs because their performance characteristics are so different. Like random access versus sequential access

⏹️ ▶️ John becomes less meaningful when you’ve just got a bunch of chips that you’re addressing, but they have their own particular quirks or whatever. So

⏹️ ▶️ John a file system layer on top of that is almost like… I mean, there are lots of file systems tailored

⏹️ ▶️ John to Flash or whatever, but Apple’s the kind of company who could use just, you know, raw access to the NAND.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, particularly on iOS devices, like, why not? Like, everything is already there. You still have to provide the same interface

⏹️ ▶️ John to the application, so maybe that’s a complication for them. But if they want to extract the maximum performance

⏹️ ▶️ John with the lowest overhead from Flash, you don’t need to go with the file system. Not only just the file system that was designed

⏹️ ▶️ John for spinning disks, but you don’t need what we think of as formally as a file system now. You just need to continue to provide the same

⏹️ ▶️ John interface, you know, the same driver interface to the higher levels of the OS. So it looks like HFS, because it

⏹️ ▶️ John always has to look like HFS plus, because all the APIs expect it to look like that. but under the covers it doesn’t have to be, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think that they probably won’t even do that, but

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the reasons I think they need a new file system have little to do with spinning disk versus flash, it just has to do with the fact that HFS

⏹️ ▶️ John is really old and crappy in all the ways that I’ve listed in my various articles complaining about this,

⏹️ ▶️ John and if they come up with a new one, I don’t think it will matter that it’s not 100% tailored

⏹️ ▶️ John to SSDs. It’ll be fine, like, And they’ll put it on the spinning disks, and they’ll probably also

⏹️ ▶️ John put it on the SSDs. And they’ll use core storage to make Fusion Drive out of them. And hopefully we’ll all be

⏹️ ▶️ John happy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. We’ll find that. We’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John find that, yeah. Now, the world you’re thinking of is like, oh, wouldn’t it be great? We don’t have to worry about spinning disks anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John We just use Flash. But it’s just not here. I mean, only Marco can get the big

⏹️ ▶️ John one. Even that one can’t hold his, well, it probably was your iPhoto library’s like 260 gigs or something. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it actually does hold almost everything I have.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, but that’s not an average person’s thing, where I easily

⏹️ ▶️ John have, I fill a terabyte drive easily. My next computer cannot have a terabyte drive as its main drive, because

⏹️ ▶️ John that won’t be big enough. I’m not using that much stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John People still can’t afford terabyte SSDs, and they won’t be able to next year either,

⏹️ ▶️ John or probably the next year after that either. So for a long time, we’re going to, And spinning drives keep getting bigger too.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Fusion Drive, by all accounts, is amazing in terms of how it makes it feel like it really

⏹️ ▶️ John is just an SSD, but you still get all that storage. Because people’s usage patterns really are, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John you do just hit a small set of files over and over again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well that’s why I wonder if, you know, like with Fusion Drive, I believe the ones that ship in the MX, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only 128 gigs, right? On the SSD portion?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like it’s not, it isn’t big.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the point is, it uses like a four gig write buffer, and then the rest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it is roughly 120 gigs worth of frequently accessed files or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frequently accessed block storage and you know if you think about it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s really not that much reason why they couldn’t also build that into a lot of laptops except cost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the problem is the retinas are already high-priced items and are already all flash

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John retinas, they won’t

⏹️ ▶️ John fit in. Spinning is not coming back to laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but they could get a little bit more life and a nice performance boost if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they would build in a little tiny 128 gig module into the non-Retina

⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptops that still exist. The Air wouldn’t need them. So actually, I guess I’m talking myself out of this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the Air’s already all flashed, the Retina’s already all flashed. Spinning is not coming back to laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the other ones are all too cheap. They can’t afford the margin. All right, nevermind.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, I mean, it’s just basically like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just the iMac, I mean, their whole desktop line is running like, You have the iMac that’s like, why would you even buy

⏹️ ▶️ John a big hunk of thing on a disk if it doesn’t come with like a terabyte of storage? Because like, what’s the point? Why not just get an

⏹️ ▶️ John Air and hook it up to a Thunderbolt display or whatever? And there’s the Mini, which still has spinning, but also has the

⏹️ ▶️ John option to SSD, and those spinnings will probably go away too. Like it’s really just the Mac Pro, because like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s got the big bays and you can put the big drives in there. And for people who have huge amounts of data,

⏹️ ▶️ John SSDs just are still way too expensive for that. spinning just keep getting

⏹️ ▶️ John bigger and cheaper and it’s like what you’re leaving money on the table if you don’t have a solution to let

⏹️ ▶️ John people take advantage of that cheap storage and they do apple has a solution it’s there waiting for them so they’re they’re going to use it’s medium

⏹️ ▶️ John term it’s not it’s not going to go away today it’s not going to go away tomorrow it will go away once

⏹️ ▶️ John you know once ssds get big enough and cheap enough to serve as

⏹️ ▶️ John the one and only complete main drive for a normal person as long as long

⏹️ ▶️ John as I guess the size of the pictures we’re taking where the cameras don’t scale with the same rate that SSD

⏹️ ▶️ John storage

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco scales.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, oops. All right with that let’s wrap it up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sounds good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right thanks a lot to our two sponsors. Solver by Aqualia Software. Go to Solver, go to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash Solver. We’ll link that in the show notes. And Oxygen for Co, Oxygen,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oxygen for Coco from Ram Object Software. It’s spelled Oxygen though with an E on the end. You’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Go to Ram object software doc or go to rim slash oxygen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with an E on the end and use coupon code ATP 13 for 20% off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thanks a lot guys

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was accidental, it was accidental And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can find the show

⏹️ ▶️ John notes at And if you’re into

⏹️ ▶️ John Twitter, you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M Anti

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey U-S-A Syracuse. It’s accidental, accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They did it in me in two.

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental, accidental. Tech podcasts, it’s so long.

⏹️ ▶️ John Set on the show, it’s a good title.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Cat,

⏹️ ▶️ John comma,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey modifier, cat.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I agree. And also I should add

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when you said graphical links, I was thinking to myself I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco would pass it on. I think you’re the only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco person who got that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my god.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Do you guys have links installed?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Does it come? Let me see.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it doesn’t because I always build it and install it. And I’m pissed when it doesn’t come.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I definitely do not.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like you build it yourself and it doesn’t come with SSL support and it annoys me. Oh, and what’s the other thing?

⏹️ ▶️ John Wget now is cranky about SSL certificates and you have to pass the like no certificate

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco check option. That doesn’t come built anymore either. I know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s one of the things. It’s like Solver.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like when you get a new Mac, I install Quicksilver, Solver, like all the apps that need BB edit. And I also go and install Wget and Lynx.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because I’m old.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, but seriously, who likes Curl? Like you have to pass the capital O option

⏹️ ▶️ John to do the one thing that’s the common case. Like what good, oh, the Curl’s defaults is just spewed into standard

⏹️ ▶️ John app? That’s talking about an app with terrible defaults. That’s why I installed Wget. just alias w at the curl

⏹️ ▶️ John minus capital o but yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah we have show but text editors were like everyone is like stuck with you know like Marco stuck with text mate because

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just what he got used to right and you can like never leave it so he’ll be like 70 years old still using text mate to

⏹️ ▶️ John and everyone else’s you know using

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco their it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John still be an alpha neural yeah the neural interfaces or whatever well it’s same thing with like Unix shells where like

⏹️ ▶️ John I know so many people myself included where whatever Unix shell they like learned when they first learned Unix, they’d

⏹️ ▶️ John never leave it and they’d just carry it around with them forever. I live in fear of the day of like, MicroSend’s not going to come with TCS-H,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is my login shell, because that’s what the login shell was at BU in 1993. It’s one

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco of those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things, like, once you learn one, there’s not really enough benefit to learn any other ones to make it worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the learning curve. Like, you just, you know, the one you use keeps working.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, you just

⏹️ ▶️ John carry your dot

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco files with you forever. They all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have very similar abilities, you know, so it’s not like there’s like a massive reason to switch.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, unless you use bash which sucks, but you know Yeah, I think of changing to like ZSH

⏹️ ▶️ John or one of the like the super fancy modern like the equivalent of hipster shells Not really because

⏹️ ▶️ John hipsters didn’t exist when you know But like they do have lots of really amazing features But then I just think

⏹️ ▶️ John about the amount of time I have to spend to recreate my preferred Key bindings and environment

⏹️ ▶️ John and all that stuff and I say, you know what just keep going with TCS age but like for the past but

⏹️ ▶️ John seven, eight years, maybe ten years at work, I’ve been, I’m always the only guy who doesn’t use Bash.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because like all the people who grew up in the Linux generation, like Bash was the default, and they all just use Bash.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so people don’t, they see my shell prompt and it’s not a Bash shell prompt, and you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John they just say, just type export whatever equals and I type something different, like that’s not going to work, what are you doing, what

⏹️ ▶️ John is this, what are you typing into? Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco there’s more to life than that. That

⏹️ ▶️ John must be hard for you. It is because my entire office, for test plans or for

⏹️ ▶️ John putting instructions up or whatever, I have to translate everything into Bash-ese because I can’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because for the people who don’t really know Unix, I can’t just tell them what to do. I have to type out the exact commands,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then I have to start a little Bash cell in one of my windows so I can just make sure I’m not making typos and stuff like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John So it’s like I’m speaking a foreign language in the midst of all these other people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, you could just convert to Bash. No.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why would I ever do that? It’s terrible. The only reason to use bash is if you were

⏹️ ▶️ John doing shell programming, because no one should ever do any shell programming in CSH or TCSH. But

⏹️ ▶️ John why would I ever do shell programming? We already went over that at the beginning of the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is it bad? I probably shouldn’t say this when we’re still live, but is it bad that I’m almost enjoying this part of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the show more than the actual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco show? Oh, this is all going in.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh my God, I hope so. Oh, this is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John fantastic. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think this would have been a good topic for an actual show, instead of just me yelling about things.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That is the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey things. That’s the best part.