Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

134: Who Did It Firster?

Apple event analysis: iPad Pro, new Apple TV, and the iPhone 6S.

Episode Description:

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).


  1. Intro: Plex on Synology
  2. Follow-up miscellany
  3. Sponsor: Cards Against Humanity
  4. Apple event: No Macs?
  5. Apple Watch updates
  6. Sponsor: Casper
  7. iPad Pro
  8. Sponsor: Fracture
  9. New Apple TV
  10. St. Jude’s
  11. iPhones 6S
  12. Post-show: First!

Intro: Plex on Synology

⏹️ ▶️ Casey regard to my computer woes, and I’m putting woes and humongous

⏹️ ▶️ Casey air quotes there, why is it I’m so preoccupied with having

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a computer that will be good at running Plex

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I have a Synology, specifically a DS1813+, sitting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right next to me as we speak that can host Plex? Why am I complaining

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and moaning about having a computer to do that? Well, the reason is that at least as of six months

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or maybe a year ago now, when I was running Plex on my Synology,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what ended up happening was anytime I tried to do a live transcode of just about anything,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it just ground to a screeching halt and it couldn’t keep up with

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the transcode. Now, it could be that things have gotten better over time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It could be that I didn’t have my settings squared away because to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco’s point, generally speaking Plex is pretty maintenance free, but it can get a little fiddly on occasion.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So it very well could be user error. But one way or another, my experience with the 1813 Plus running Plex

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that it just cannot transcode quick enough. And thus I need a full bore computer to do it. Now there are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey other Synology models that absolutely can transcode really

⏹️ ▶️ Casey well on the fly. The one that I have in my experience anyway was not it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the other question is, okay, well, why do you have to transcode in the first place? Why don’t you just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have what MPEG-4 video or whatever it is all over the place? Well, let’s just say that not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of my media is consistent and I’ll leave it at that. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey could take Don Milton’s scripts and transcode everything, but that takes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a long time because I don’t have a trash can Mac Pro and I’m too darn lazy. So that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is why I’m not using Plex on my Synology.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have the same Synology and it’s not, I mean, it’s a fairly wimpy CPU in there. It’s not great at transcoding,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I haven’t really run Plex on it. I use Synology’s native video serving

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. Is that any good? It transcodes fine. Like, either it can’t transcode it at all, which

⏹️ ▶️ John very rarely happens, but does occasionally happen where it just can’t make heads or tails of it and it says like, you know, file

⏹️ ▶️ John unreadable or whatever. Some error message is basically like, I can’t make heads or tails of this. But most of the stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ John I find, some pretty weird stuff, you know, weird MKVs of unknown origins, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John It transcodes them. 1080p, you know, you can’t do anything fancy like scrub around

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in the video. Like don’t like,

⏹️ ▶️ John all you can do is play from the beginning essentially, but it can keep up. It doesn’t drop frames. So

⏹️ ▶️ John it could just be Plex is not taking advantage of the hardware in the same way that the thing that comes with Synology is. And in general,

⏹️ ▶️ John when I’ve looked at like Plex and all the other sorts of things, Synology is like, I think they call it DS

⏹️ ▶️ John video, they have an iOS app, they have a little server thing. My TV

⏹️ ▶️ John with no software installed, just the quote unquote, smart features of my TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John It sees it just as a DLNA server. It’s not fancy, it’s not pretty, it doesn’t show you

⏹️ ▶️ John the cover art for your things and have a bunch of metadata and do all the stuff that Plex does. But it

⏹️ ▶️ John has a fairly high rate of being able to play the video in a straight line from beginning to end

⏹️ ▶️ John as long as you don’t touch anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, well, maybe I’ll have to try that out. I mean, I freaking love Plex with all my being. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, I do like all the metadata it gives you. I do think despite what Marco’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey experience has been, that it’s very, very easy, 99% of the time. The only problem with Plex

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that you really have to name things the way they expect you to name things. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you do, and you’re okay with that, then you don’t ever have to look at the names of anything because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s all, you know, with the cover art and with the full metadata, just like you were saying, John, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really love it, but it may be worth giving this thing a try just to see. And I think it’s the Play

⏹️ ▶️ Casey series, the DS214 Play is the one I can think of off the top of my head that the Synology makes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I believe has some onboard hardware to do some of this transcoding, but our Synologies do

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not. So just something to consider.

⏹️ ▶️ John I have one of those play ones too and it does claim to have hardware stuff and you can turn it on but I think when you

⏹️ ▶️ John turn it on the hardware decoding like it reduces the amount of things that it’s able to transcode

⏹️ ▶️ John on the fly like it the hardware decoding is like you know understands some particular

⏹️ ▶️ John formats and some particular bit rates or whatever that’s I don’t know if that’s true but that’s been my impression because when I check

⏹️ ▶️ John that checkbox all of a sudden a bunch of other stuff doesn’t play and when I uncheck it

⏹️ ▶️ John everything still play is fine. And so I don’t see what the advantage is. It’s not as if checking it makes

⏹️ ▶️ John something that I couldn’t previously play play better. Everything plays fine in software mode. So I just leave the hardware thing

⏹️ ▶️ John unchecked.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If only the new Apple TV played MKV files natively.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I tell you what, though, if there is a if there’s a plex app for the Apple TV, which I got to assume there will be,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m gonna have to that’s that genuinely that will probably make me buy one. Although I will

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say that I do love my Fire TV stick. It does work really well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. Well, put that in the notes so you don’t forget to crush your Plex dreams for Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV later. All right. All right.

Follow-up miscellany

⏹️ ▶️ John a follow up since you went to the last follow up item first now out of order here. So we’ll go to the first, the first

⏹️ ▶️ John follow up item second from Michael Hammond. He was the first person to point out that last show when I was trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John talk about the things that Apple is not going to do when they do the s revision of their phones, like it’s not a total

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware redesign. It’s just like like the previous phone, but seer. The example

⏹️ ▶️ John I gave was they’re not gonna do something like touch ID. But of course, touch ID did debut on an S phone brain farts, sorry.

⏹️ ▶️ John So never mind that example. Neither one of you caught it either. Nope.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco we forget.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I just I wanted to see if you knew.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I mean, I knew as soon as it was pointed out to me like, yeah, that was a stupid example. And then I then I of course, I did that I actually

⏹️ ▶️ John say that and then you listen back and say, yeah, I did stupid. Anyway, Michael Hammond won the race.

⏹️ ▶️ John He was the first one. And then a million other people told me, which is fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, this next piece follow up is me. We’ve talked on and off about the crescent moon on the front

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the iPhone 6 and maybe even 6 Plus. I wanted to remind everyone, I tweeted about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this a little while ago, that your warranty if you did not buy AppleCare probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey runs out in the next 10 or so days if you got a launch day iPhone 6. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have scheduled a Genius Bar appointment for this coming Sunday, I believe about midday, and so I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to go into the Genius Bar to see about them replacing either the screen or the entire

⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone. I have heard from numerous people through the internet,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve heard that they will completely give you a new phone, which I think is actually refurbished, strictly speaking,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but they’ll give you a phone that’s new to you. I’ve heard that they’ll give you or repair the screen,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like give you a whole new screen assembly, and I’ve heard they’ll tell you, well, it doesn’t affect the pictures, so screw

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off. And I don’t know, I guess every person’s experience is a little bit different. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will report back on what my experience is, but I will find out Sunday. Additionally, I’m told

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as per LaneW that to get this fixed out of warranty is $109. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know if that is inclusive of AppleCare or not, but it’s something to think about.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So if you have one of these Crescent Moon iPhone issues, I would strongly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey suggest you go and get that checked out in the next week or so.

⏹️ ▶️ John uh… she’s gandhi uh… gave some clarification on the whole thing about uh…

⏹️ ▶️ John the sbg icon for the pin tab and safari nine uh… why

⏹️ ▶️ John were there two different uh… instructions i think we put them both in last week’s show notes uh… turns

⏹️ ▶️ John out that uh… there’s only one one of them is old one of them is new was difficult to tell which was which

⏹️ ▶️ John will put links in the show it’s the cleared up the real one apple once you use now is the one that says link rel

⏹️ ▶️ John equals mask hyphen icon that is the real one that is the good one that’s the one you have to put in. I have

⏹️ ▶️ John to go to my side and delete the other one now that I know which one is fake. And there’s also a link to a thread

⏹️ ▶️ John in Apple’s developer forums and mailing list archive on one of the what

⏹️ ▶️ John WG mailing lists from the W3 explaining the evolution of this thing. But anyway, it’s link rel

⏹️ ▶️ John equals mask-icon in case you were wondering.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity and rather than reading a normal sponsor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco read they asked John to review a toaster

⏹️ ▶️ Marco John what is this week’s toaster?

⏹️ ▶️ John I had a weird one this week Because I’ve never heard of this brand before and I think this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the first one we’ve ever had of this brand you guys can tell me this is Rosewill all one word

⏹️ ▶️ John no capital W this is the rht0 I know I guess it’s got to be an

⏹️ ▶️ John o rhto yes it is an o hyphen one three zero zero

⏹️ ▶️ John one another name with o’s and zeros in it but at least they’re separated by hyphen

⏹️ ▶️ John this is I think the biggest toaster I’ve ever tested it is really

⏹️ ▶️ John really really big it is bigger in all dimensions than what I thought was my pretty big

⏹️ ▶️ John Breville 650 XL toaster. They sell it on Newegg. I don’t know where it came from. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they just arrive at my house. And in particular, it is really, really tall.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t understand why it’s so tall. It is the tallest toaster I’ve ever seen in my life. It is taller

⏹️ ▶️ John than any toaster I’ve ever seen in a store. It’s taller than the really big Brevilles. Like, I don’t understand

⏹️ ▶️ John why it’s so tall. The manual that it comes with is very thin. It doesn’t give any

⏹️ ▶️ John reason for it to be so darn tall. And it, you would think like, oh, it’s you so you can fit an entire chicken in there

⏹️ ▶️ John like vertically maybe like why is it so tall like I think the proportions of all

⏹️ ▶️ John the other toasters like if you have a chicken that is too tall to fit in one of the other toasters I’ve tested

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not going to fit lengthwise you know like the proportions anyway it is inexplicably tall

⏹️ ▶️ John and it just dominates the counter that it’s on all right so that’s the first weird thing about it um some standard things

⏹️ ▶️ John about it it’s another three knob toaster three knobs that all have to be in the right position for anything to happen

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve got a got a temperature knob on top that goes from 0 to 450 although the manual says that has a max

⏹️ ▶️ John setting it doesn’t just stops at 450 anyway turn it all the way to the right then you’ve got a function knob with toast

⏹️ ▶️ John on one end and like a warming function the other and then you’ve got a timer knob that turned to the right for a little ticking timer

⏹️ ▶️ John and turn to the left for the stay on mode I don’t know who decided this three knob arrangement is a good idea

⏹️ ▶️ John but it appears to be the most common and it’s terrible because it’s like you know all three knobs have

⏹️ ▶️ John to be in the right position for you to do anything right and it will gladly, like you’ll turn the little toast knob

⏹️ ▶️ John to whatever to try and toast. If you don’t have the other knobs in the right position, it will gladly just sit

⏹️ ▶️ John there and take away the lights and all that, and nothing tells you that it’s not actually toasting your bread until you come back two minutes later and go, why

⏹️ ▶️ John isn’t this bread getting brown? Or actually in this case, four and a half minutes. It’s about four and a half

⏹️ ▶️ John minutes of toast, which is pretty good considering the cavern that you have to put the bread into.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like it’s so lonely there. This has three positions for the rack, and it has a U-shaped rack

⏹️ ▶️ John that you can flip over, but the U-shape is only like a centimeter difference between up and down,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe two centimeters. Anyway, again, what difference does two centimeters up or down make in this giant

⏹️ ▶️ John toaster that’s like a foot tall? I don’t understand. It’s got two unguarded elements on the bottom, two

⏹️ ▶️ John unguarded elements on the top. Crumb tray slides out reasonably

⏹️ ▶️ John well. The door, the massive, massive door has a weird curve to it. It opens all

⏹️ ▶️ John the way. It doesn’t feel like it’s bending or breaking. The whole thing, here’s the thing that

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still puzzling over about this toaster. The whole toaster feels like it’s not high

⏹️ ▶️ John end, so it’s not like trying to be shiny or glossy or like have the controls feel good,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not chintzy either, like nothing wiggles when it shouldn’t. You know, it’s like exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John middle of the road, very sort of straightforward Fisher Price competent. part of

⏹️ ▶️ John it is not loose, but like it just, it has an air

⏹️ ▶️ John of like competence to it. Then I don’t know I’m associating with this Rosewill brand that I’ve never heard of. By

⏹️ ▶️ John the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way, it’s apparently new age generic brand. Just please don’t email us.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that makes some sense like a new egg style thing where if you buy something from new egg is like

⏹️ ▶️ John an off brand or like mono price, you know, where it’s like, it’s not really name brand, but also not

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible. I don’t know. It’s very strange. So the knobs, they feel kind of gritty

⏹️ ▶️ John and a little bit stiff, but they don’t feel like they’re going to fall off in your hands. They do their knob job well. They have

⏹️ ▶️ John a little marking. They have little markings on them so you can see where they’re pointing. They’re just

⏹️ ▶️ John standard knobs. They don’t do any of the terrible mistakes the other ones try to do. The door feels a little bit too

⏹️ ▶️ John big and too loose, but it doesn’t wiggle. It doesn’t twist in its thing. It just opens and closes fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John I still think the toaster is just way too big and four and a half minutes is like the sort of the average a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John too slow toaster. I think that’s just too long to wait. But if you like to toast really

⏹️ ▶️ John big things, I guess really tall stuff, it does an okay job. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John for a giant toaster, it just feels like a waste of space to me. But I can’t find anything terribly

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong with it in terms of the big toasters to take a long time to toast bread. It seems

⏹️ ▶️ John okay. I didn’t look at the prices. I always forget to look at the price because they just arrive and I don’t know like it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hundred bucks

⏹️ ▶️ John Whoa, all right now I’ve changed my opinion on this thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco This is not a hundred

⏹️ ▶️ John dollar toaster Do not buy this toaster for $100. I’m gonna be like it was like 50 or 60 fine $100. Mmm. I would get the smaller

⏹️ ▶️ John Black and Decker three knob thing or something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well the hundred dollar price does match up with what you just said about how it’s kind of in the middle between low end and high

⏹️ ▶️ Marco end where you know the high-end toasters like your Breville are like 180 and then we’ve had a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of good ones that are like 40 or 50 yeah but I

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like the best $50 one we had is better than this because it’s just so big and so slow

⏹️ ▶️ John like I just felt like the quality of it was it was like it felt like using a monoprice toaster

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not it’s not name-brand it’s not quite right it’s a little bit off the plastic is a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit of the wrong material I’m like so the really long toast time if you’re gonna use it mostly for toasting things this is not the toaster for

⏹️ ▶️ John you it’s all black which I think is reasonably tasteful after some of the weirder toasters that we had.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe you see it on sale. See it at for 80 bucks. Pick it up. But but really

⏹️ ▶️ John take the measurements first. You know, go into your kitchen and measure it out and see if you can fit underneath

⏹️ ▶️ John your countertop underneath your cabinets, because it is huge.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Do you think maybe this is for somebody who wants to toast an entire dozen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of bagels at once vertically? Like just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John stacking like you know. That’s what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John saying, it has so much space but it doesn’t give you any like holders or anything to use that space.

⏹️ ▶️ John It also comes with a circular thing like for pizza or whatever which is weird because it doesn’t even have much of a bump

⏹️ ▶️ John on the back of it. And the trays that it comes with are also sort of similarly middle of the road. It comes with a lot of accessories. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John got the big tray, it’s got the thing that goes inside the tray, then it’s got the circle thing. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know, this is inscrutable. I think we’ll have to get more of these Roseville ones to see, to get

⏹️ ▶️ John the number of this manufacturer But $100 seems steep to me. And honestly, I don’t understand a person,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe a giant person, maybe like someone who is like an NBA player, or an NFL player

⏹️ ▶️ John who’s just much bigger than regular people that this is a proportional toaster for them. And they just buy very tall bread.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to cards against humanity for sponsoring our show

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this week. once again.

Apple event: No Macs?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay. So some things have happened today. We are out of August and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey news is happening once again. We have made it through the dark days and now we are back

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the light. So there was an Apple keynote today and it was a busy one. There was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a lot going on. How long was it all told? Like two and a half hours, something like that? I mean, it’s a long

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and busy keynote. And so I guess the understanding

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is that this is the last keynote we’re going to see from Apple this calendar year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think it’s interesting. I mean, you know, like John Gruber was predicting beforehand that, you know, this doesn’t make sense.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s too much stuff. They always have too, or they have for a long time, and that was correct.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think one thing that is very clear from this is that they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to relegate anything to a secondary keynote. And one thing that didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make any appearance at all is El Capitan and anything about the Mac. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think there was like some some like Easter egg somewhere where like on a screenshot on one of the demos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it said that it’s coming out on September 30th but that was it. Yeah that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was an email an email in Federici’s iPhone and he was doing the,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I already forgot the term, but he was doing like the quick look for the message and it said oh it’s coming

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out on the 30th PS top secret.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right exactly so like but other than that you know there was really no mention of the Mac in today’s keynote because honestly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there wasn’t room for it. And I think maybe, you know, we’ve, we keep waiting for Skylake,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? And we keep hearing Skylake is coming soon-ish, you know, anytime between

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now and six months from now, everyone keeps saying. I think this is kind of confirmation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that either we’re not going to see any Skylake stuff from Apple for the rest of the year, or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll be so minor that it’ll just be like a website update, you know? So I wouldn’t expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much on the Mac front for the rest of the year besides the release of El Capitan. Maybe this 4K iMac comes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out, but honestly, in this event, there was no room for that. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 4K iMac is not a big deal. It’s a mid-range product. It isn’t a high-end product. It’s not even really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a redesign as far as we know. The Mac is conspicuously missing here, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think Apple really wanted to give a boost to their other things that aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPhone. They talked a little bit about the watch, we’ll get to that. They wanted to launch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the new iPad Pro and the new Apple TV. These are major new product launches

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, as far as I know, I mean, I will have to ask people who have worked for big sites, as far as I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, the iPhone event every year is always the biggest event audience-wise. It seems like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way more people watch the iPhone event every year than the other Apple live streams. And so,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if Apple wants to give things the best chance, this is like going between friends in Seinfeld. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is the slot that like you know you can put anything in front of the iPhones at this event

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’ll get a lot of exposure. Even more so than Apple’s usual stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco which is already a lot of exposure. So you know they wanted to give the iPad Pro, the Apple TV and the watch the biggest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco boost they can leading into the holiday season. So it makes sense that they did it this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. However, I mean I don’t know about you guys. I am totally overwhelmed by this. I don’t even know, I mean I guess

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can just go chronologically but I don’t, we’re not gonna be able to cover all this even in one show. I mean, our podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is shorter than the keynote. Eh, occasionally.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John well, I think we’ll hit all the highlights. I think we’ll come revisit a lot of these things because, again,

⏹️ ▶️ John recording this the day the keynote happened, I don’t know about you guys, but I didn’t have much time to research all these things because the

⏹️ ▶️ John keynote ended and, you know, picking kids up and making dinner, like I did not, you know, so this is the same thing we do after WWDC.

⏹️ ▶️ John Get overwhelmed with a bunch of information, see a big thing, and then talk about it. So I’m sure, I think we, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why I put them all in the notes. I think we’ll be able to hit all of them and then towards the end once we’ve gone through all of them we

⏹️ ▶️ John can get bogged down details and follow up on that next week. As for the Mac stuff that you were mentioning,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s understandable because the only Mac thing that they could possibly have to announce was

⏹️ ▶️ John Lcap, which we’ve seen a million times before. I don’t think there are any surprises there. And even if they had

⏹️ ▶️ John any new hardware, it would be exactly the kind of thing to get cut for space. And they had tons of other stuff and they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John only doing one show and so that stuff gets cut. much of a slight because all they would have been doing

⏹️ ▶️ John is demoing things we’ve already seen and showing us hardware that does not surprise

⏹️ ▶️ John us in any way, which would be nice. You know, it’s a nice announcement. Oh, look, the new Macs are out and here are their features and I

⏹️ ▶️ John wonder which chips they put in them. I wonder what the prices are. But other than that, there’s nothing like, you know, one of the Macs

⏹️ ▶️ John comes with a pencil or something, you know, so that’s it. Just if you just rank things in priority order and cut off

⏹️ ▶️ John it to the two hour mark, all the Mac related stuff happens to fall off the bottom, which I think is fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, I think the Mac got a lot of screen time at WWDC,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, disproportionate to the amount of money that it makes Apple and the amount of Macs that they sell and, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John all out of proportion with everything else. This was not the show for the Macs as it shows for

⏹️ ▶️ John the other stuff. So I thought it was fine. I didn’t think the Mac got slided in any way.

Apple Watch updates

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so let’s start with the watch. New Apple Watch stuff. Yeah, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey some new colors for the Apple Watch. I was actually hugely disappointed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the pink one, that that wasn’t a thing when the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey watch came out because I think Aaron would have loved that. That being said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when I tried to quickly re-watch the keynote this afternoon, Aaron

⏹️ ▶️ Casey seemed very unimpressed by it, so I’m not sure if she really would have loved it, but typically she likes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that kind of pink, that very soft pink. She loved her pink razor, which I think we’ve talked about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in parts in the past. Not to say the pink is only for girls, but the girl

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I know best happens to really like pink, and so that’s why I bring it up. There’s the new band

⏹️ ▶️ Casey by Hermes, is that right? I believe it’s Hermes. Yeah, you’re right, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right. Sorry, I was trying really hard to remember, but that’s okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn’t know that before today. I would have said Hermes until today.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, so there’s new bands Clearly not targeted to me because I think the one that wraps a double around your wrist

⏹️ ▶️ Casey looks absolutely ridiculous And it seems like it’d be a pain in the butt to put on so obviously not for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pain in the butt to put on has no bearing on fashion.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey That’s true

⏹️ ▶️ Marco second of all yeah I’ve been told by my expert wife that that is very much in fashion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John well as it have you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see did you see the giant cuff for men you see that

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah? I don’t understand that it’s like you’re being shackled to your watch like this watch the strap is

⏹️ ▶️ John not enough to hold it to my Wrist I need something bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah, I mean Yeah, this is This is this is way beyond our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco understanding because this is high fashion and we are not high fashion. Maybe maybe it

⏹️ ▶️ John blocks bullets

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Is that a Wonder Woman reference

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John that is oh, look at me guys are

⏹️ ▶️ John too young for that show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Well, there’s that Okay, so new colors, new bands, brief mention of watchOS 2.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got to tell you as quick aside, I’m really freaking stoked for custom complications

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or third-party complications. I actually am intending to write a blog post about this if and when I ever have a chance to breathe, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can think of a handful of apps that I would love to have custom complications for. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what is the face that has no analog portion to it, the modular?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Yeah, I believe so.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So the modular face, I think it’s aesthetically hideous, but if the right set

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of complications came out, I would probably switch to that. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really stoked for watchOS 2. Have you done much with overcast for watchOS 2?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if I should say this or not. I literally haven’t started.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, you’re going to have a busy fall,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’d say. Yeah, I mean, because it’s mostly because the more I use the watch, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t want to go too far into this now because we have a lot of other stuff to talk about. But basically, the more I use the watch,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the less interested I am in running apps on it. And I really like the watch and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use it every day. I’m always wearing it. I love the activity tracking. I love notifications. I love

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much about the watch in reality, but I don’t love the apps on it. And I don’t think I’m alone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in that. I think this is a very common opinion of it where, you know, people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep going on and on about how the watch is going to replace… well, before the watch came out, people went on and on about how it’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco replace phones, and I was a little skeptical about that. And I think my skepticism has proven to be correct,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I don’t think watches can replace phones. I think anyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who has one of these smartwatches will probably agree with that. That it isn’t an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco issue of, like, oh, just wait a couple years and the hardware will be so much better. It’s literally just,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, the ergonomics and the physical sides of things just don’t work out that well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The watch is really cool for a lot of things, but being a general-purpose app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco platform isn’t one of those things as far as I’m concerned. Now there are a lot of things that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could be done better that would improve the situation. With watchOS 2 custom complications,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they’re they’re making a lot of headway into that. But I also think that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when Apple designed the watch, I think they made a bunch of mistakes with the UI and the software structure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and I would have made it a lot simpler honestly and we thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I don’t get too far in this we’ll talk about it on another show but I would have basically done only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the watch face complications and notifications and glances and not have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the home screen not have apps that are like these navigation hierarchy trees or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that are really meant to do anything beyond a few seconds long so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anyway I haven’t started work on Overcast for the watch in part because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t a high priority for me as a user of Overcast. The watch app I have now works

⏹️ ▶️ Marco okay. When I get a chance I’m gonna do the watchOS 2 app. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not gonna tackle trying to play things directly from the watch with no phone nearby

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anytime soon because I looked into it WBDC and it’s basically it’s extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco limited in what you can do extremely challenging and I think honestly it would kind of suck. The reality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of you know moving these files back and forth like you know how many people do you know now with the watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who sync music over to it and listen on Bluetooth headphones while they jog like I don’t know anybody I mean I know you can do that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I know people want that but I don’t know anybody who’s actually tried it and has wanted to do it more than

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once just because it’s so it’s so cumbersome to transfer data back and forth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I mean I barely even know enough people who have Bluetooth headphones who could even do it at all but anyway

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so I’ve been focused with Overcast on streaming streaming streaming and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting 2.0 out the door and so I’m working on that the reality is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost all of Overcast customers are using it on an iPhone very few of them even have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an Apple watch very few of them use it on the iPad and none of them have an Apple TV yet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that matters so that’s where I’m focusing my efforts on the iPhone app right now and then once I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco finished 2.0 which should be very soon, then I can branch out to these other platforms

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and start figuring out what might make sense there. But for now I haven’t even touched it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, well that’s surprising. But I am curious to see how that goes

⏹️ ▶️ Casey once you start really digging into the OS 2 version. And I’m gonna call it OS 2 forevermore

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco because I want to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean honestly, like I hardly ever launch the Overcast app on my watch. I almost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never use it. Like that’s that I think And I think that’s kind of a problem for, you know, me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a developer. But I hear from people,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I ask people who use the app, I hear from them similar things that it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just isn’t as useful as we thought it would be for that kind of role. Now for all the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things, like for the things I mentioned, notifications, time stuff, watch face complications, glances,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s very good at those things, except glances. It’s very good at the other parts of those things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If that’s all it ever does, that’s still a really nice device for a lot of people, myself included. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still very happy I bought it for all those reasons. If it never runs an app in the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco typical, go back to the honeycomb screen, find the icon, launch the icon, do some things in the app. If I never

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that again with the watch, I’ll be fine with this product.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s interesting. There’s not a lot of watch apps that I use, but the ones I use I do quite like. I really like Fantastical.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I really like this baby connect app that we’re probably not going to be using much longer because Declan’s getting quite a bit older now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dark sky is good. Yeah, that’s about it. When I’m traveling, there’s some others that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey use, but that doesn’t happen terribly often. John, what are you, are you using any third party apps

⏹️ ▶️ John for your watch really? I don’t use apps much either, but I find myself still forgetting and being frustrated

⏹️ ▶️ John by the fact that the watch is so much less useful without the phone. Like if I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have my phone in my pocket, I’m just wearing my watch. Oh, that’s right. I’m not going to get text messages. I’m not going

⏹️ ▶️ John to see when like, you know, uh, something, a new, uh, calendar, but I guess I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John see the calendar right. So they synced, but like the communication, like that, that it does all its communication

⏹️ ▶️ John through the phone. And that once you are, if you leave your phone at your desk and you go to a meeting, uh, I will

⏹️ ▶️ John not see if my wife texts me something. And, and I forget that that’s the case. I forget that the, because you start

⏹️ ▶️ John using it for those, for those roles where it’s like, you’re sort of on the wrist, tapping you, notice notifications

⏹️ ▶️ John of things going on, you start to believe that the watch is its own thing. You’re like, I just need my watch. I don’t need to take my

⏹️ ▶️ John phone out of my pocket. But then you’re like, I don’t even need my phone. And you do. So I am looking forward

⏹️ ▶️ John to seven years from now when it can do all those same things that Marco described, but

⏹️ ▶️ John not rely on the phone for all of them. And maybe it’ll be more than seven years. Because because for those functions

⏹️ ▶️ John that functionality, a lot of the times, that’s all I need out of it. I don’t need to be launching apps on

⏹️ ▶️ John my phone or surfing the web, I just need to make and receive phone calls and texts and have

⏹️ ▶️ John an up-to-date synchronized calendar and maybe, you know, do some basic

⏹️ ▶️ John lookups of contact information. That can all fit on the watch because

⏹️ ▶️ John then, you know, I’m not like I’m typing on the watch. I’m speaking into it. I’m either using the speech to text or

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sending audio things to people or I’m doing phone calls over the tinny little thing. Like it’s just for

⏹️ ▶️ John two-second little spurts of things. So that’s the place where I feel the watch has

⏹️ ▶️ John room to grow. That and also the thing that they’ve done here getting back to the announcement is I’m glad to see

⏹️ ▶️ John that they are branching out aesthetically like that they’re not going to you

⏹️ ▶️ John know here’s a bunch of watches you can get and then you know a year from now or

⏹️ ▶️ John two years from now when we make the next version the watch will be a different fashion like that they’re willing to play

⏹️ ▶️ John with it that they have you know more colors more styles more watch faces and I think they should be even more of

⏹️ ▶️ John that in particular the watch faces where they kind of like oh if you get this special band you’ll get get the special watch face.

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess they have to do that for branding purposes, but they probably own the designs of these, these, I don’t know. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, I think that’s the next area that needs to open up is watch face, third party watch

⏹️ ▶️ John faces, because all this type of customization makes people feel more of a connection

⏹️ ▶️ John with this thing. Like there are so many varieties you can get now and so many colors and so many bands. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they should let people have third party watch faces as well because that is an area like Marco’s, like he’s not really enthused

⏹️ ▶️ John about making a watchOS app because he doesn’t find himself using apps, but everybody uses the watch face.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you were a designer, I bet you’d be really jazzed about a chance to make your own watch face.

⏹️ ▶️ John So much so that even Marco might make one with watch hands that move out of the way so you can

⏹️ ▶️ John see the little date complication. Whatever. It just seems like a fun thing to do

⏹️ ▶️ John and play to the strengths of the watch. Right now, apps are not the strength of the watch, But who knows, with WatchOS 2,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe more people will find more apps. Like Casey’s found a few, I found basically

⏹️ ▶️ John zero, Marco’s found zero. If WatchOS 2, after

⏹️ ▶️ John six months of development, can get me and Marco to have one app that we use all the time, that will be a

⏹️ ▶️ John victory for the platform.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think that’s fair. All right, anything else about the watch?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, do you guys think, so obviously the big news with the watch today is that they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco added a ton of bands and new body colors. So they added,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you mentioned they added the rose gold sport. Also the gold sport, right? Or is there, there’s two?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, you’re right. I believe that’s right. I think, yeah, so there’s, they just doubled the number of colors in the sport line

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the watch body, plus they added the Hermes line, plus they have like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they have like 10 new sport band colors. It’s this massive number of new colors there. It’s like more than triple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like triple the number of sport band colors that we have. Plus, they totally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco remade the classic buckle. Now it looks like it’s a little bit thicker. It’s two-tone leather on the black,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they also added a brown version, which is very nice, at least in the picture so far.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They basically just added tons of new watch options only a few months

⏹️ ▶️ Marco after the watch was released, obviously leading to the holiday season. Do you guys think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a sign that they’re kind of a little bit desperate to boost the sales of the watch?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I think they’re just hitting their production ramp. It was supply constrained in the beginning,

⏹️ ▶️ John and now they have the capacity and have worked out the manufacturing, and they can just start branching out. And with any fashion

⏹️ ▶️ John accessory, you want to have more varieties. In the beginning for the launch, it’s just you have to necessarily

⏹️ ▶️ John keep things somewhat narrow, and now they can branch out and offer people more variety.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think it’s really just about people who are like, when the big rush to get the watch is, like, oh, I don’t know if that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John any good. I’m not going to buy that. I don’t want to fight the crowds now you’ll be able to get one in the holiday season is coming up

⏹️ ▶️ John if you are interested in a watch you know maybe you looked at the previous models, and you didn’t want to deal with

⏹️ ▶️ John the rush and None of them really appeal to you and now you’re casually wander

⏹️ ▶️ John into a store And you should be struck by the fact that oh I didn’t like any of those ones that I saw pictures of before But I would like

⏹️ ▶️ John this color with this thing like it’s it’s a good timing for them for the holidays to just have

⏹️ ▶️ John more variety I don’t think it’s a desperation thing because like the product hasn’t changed the same watch it always was all

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re doing is giving people more variety and a night and it coincides

⏹️ ▶️ John nicely with watchOS 2 which you know regular people don’t know the difference between watchOS 1 and 2

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever like this this watch for this holiday season in this variety as far as the casual

⏹️ ▶️ John public who has been who had been dismissing the Apple watch is concerned this is how the Apple watch

⏹️ ▶️ John always has been and they’ll take an interest in it and they’ll think this is how the watch was from day one but it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John so I think they’re They’re just getting a product line that’s more appropriate for the holidays.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think it could be indicative of trouble in paradise, but I do agree with John that I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just that they’re hitting their production ramp and just getting their feet under them, so to speak.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I’m not too worried yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. And also, like the watch is still a phone. You can’t get one of these unless you have an iPhone. Right. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so it’s never it’s not going to be like, oh, we got to worry about watch. It’s always going to be a subset of iPhone sales. And

⏹️ ▶️ John in the beginning, it’s going to be really small subset. So it’s not as if Apple was expecting the watch to be a breakout product. Like that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John why they said before they even released the watch we’re not gonna break out the numbers for you and everything because they know like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not gonna be big in the beginning. It’s always going to be until they break it free of the iPhone if they ever do.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I said, seven years now or something. But it’s something they wanna do.

⏹️ ▶️ John No one has really said this, but in the wake of the Apple TV thing, you could kind of consider Apple Watch their new hobby.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s interesting. We don’t know the numbers. you can’t say like number wise it is or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it looks a lot like a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco hobby

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t it’s like it’s a cool accessory that you can get for the phone, which is their meat and potatoes. And

⏹️ ▶️ John you do lots of fun, interesting stuff with it. And you don’t break out the numbers for people.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s not as if there’s any sort of platform that lives or dies based on the sales of the watch or anything

⏹️ ▶️ John like it seems hobbyish to me,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know, maybe I’m totally wrong. Like in some people who know the real numbers or who can like back solve for them, like

⏹️ ▶️ John or as they do, whatever, can tell me that they sold more watches than 24 hours than all Apple TVs ever sold, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John probably true. And the watch’s margins got to be much better than the Apple TV. So it could be, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, I could be way off on this, but it strikes me as because it is a subordinate product,

⏹️ ▶️ John because it is basically the world’s fanciest iPhone accessory. And it’s still in that infancy.

⏹️ ▶️ John Remember when only weird people had iPhones or had smartphones at all? That’s the stage Apple watches at now. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John when, when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPhone was never at that stage,

⏹️ ▶️ John it was when, when the first iPhone came out and it was like $600 or whatever like only

⏹️ ▶️ John weird people had iPhones. There was a lot like if you look at the the little ramp of like how many cumulative

⏹️ ▶️ John number of iPhones sold it started out pretty slow just like the people who really believed and people wanted it but it

⏹️ ▶️ John seemed expensive because there was no every other phone didn’t look like the iPhone at that point and smart

⏹️ ▶️ John watches I still think are in that early phase so I’m willing to give the watch a pretty long time

⏹️ ▶️ John to go through its 3G 3GS 4 phase before

⏹️ ▶️ John the rest of the world starts to wake up and look at it and maybe then it will get out of the realm

⏹️ ▶️ John of potentially a hobby product for Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah I don’t know I honestly I have a little bit of worry here for the Apple Watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only because it does seem like I can’t imagine they were planning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all along to launch all these things this fall for like all these all these new hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco varieties so soon after the launch of the first watch.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s just it’s just color changes like they made a bunch of plastic bands and now they can make the plastic in different colors and like the

⏹️ ▶️ John anodized stuff like they’re already doing it for the phone they already have the process that’s probably the same like it’s very straightforward

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff and it just it just seems to me that why would you not do this

⏹️ ▶️ John then you know there’s a reason not to do it on launch which is just you really have to concentrate on a few models

⏹️ ▶️ John and get the kinks worked out or whatever but once you’ve got all the kinks worked out you’re not designing a new watch it’s the same old watch

⏹️ ▶️ John just color stuff differently. And it’s so easy to do and make people happy. And if you have enough manufacturing

⏹️ ▶️ John inventory to make sure you always have one in the color and the size that people want,

⏹️ ▶️ John why would you not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do it? The most obvious answer to me is why not wait until version two to do some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of these things like you know, they don’t do this with the iPhone. The iPhone is sells in way bigger volume is very important to the company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes them way more money.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John as much of a fashion accessory. I think when the watch two comes out, it will be reconstrained to a smaller set

⏹️ ▶️ John of styles and colors again and then it’ll do the exact same thing where the watch to like

⏹️ ▶️ John assuming they don’t do like a 2s or whatever the next watch that is different a different shape and size

⏹️ ▶️ John right will have a limited set of colors similarly limited to the first one and

⏹️ ▶️ John then we’ll branch out again because I just don’t think you can launch a brand new product in this this in this variety

⏹️ ▶️ John of colors and sizes and shapes finishes and bands and all the other stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know I mean there there is the possibility. So when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tim Cook on the last earnings call said that the Apple Watch is selling well, and there was this report

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a couple days before that from some survey company that said there was a huge spike of pre-orders and then it dropped

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then it was not selling well anymore, what he said did not actually contradict that report,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because what he said was counting them when they ship to customers, not when they are ordered

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by customers. And so what he said could have been true

⏹️ ▶️ Marco while that report was also true. So this could all still be the case where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what he said back then, it was selling well. It was selling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by stock inventory standards of when it ships, that’s when it’s charged, that’s when it’s sold, that’s when we bought the revenue.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So now, leading into the holiday quarter, another quarter’s coming up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If it isn’t selling well, they’re going to have to explain why. Because people are going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to look at these numbers, they’re going to be able to figure out in this other category, oh crap, this is kind of bad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Hopefully the Apple TV isn’t there to help boost it up there. What if this—and again,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this might not be the case. This is the cynical take on this, or the skeptical take on this. What if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all these new bands and everything are not only an attempt to juice new watch sales earlier than they planned,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but also an attempt to get more money sooner out of existing watch owners who are buying additional bands,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just trying to juice the watch quarter numbers in the short term just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get them until a future point where they think that the sales will make up for it?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how many extra bands they’re going to sell to existing watch owners.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like it’s the same with the original iPhone. iPhone came out, everyone who wanted one got one, then a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of other people just stood back and watch for a while. And this has the advantage of the holidays where it’s like the watch came out, everyone

⏹️ ▶️ John who wanted to watch got one, everyone else just sat back and watch curiously at this whole watch thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the holidays come along, it’s like, well, I mean, that’s the you know, the type of thing was by somebody, something

⏹️ ▶️ John they wouldn’t buy for themselves. Someone might have been curious about the watch, but they’re not going to spend that money. They don’t know if it’s a big deal. They don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John even know if they’re going to like when someone will get it for him as a gift. That’s what the holidays do. by holidays, big

⏹️ ▶️ John shopping season. So and people who are considering watches or

⏹️ ▶️ John wanted to get for themselves or whatever, like, I think it will still be a small thing

⏹️ ▶️ John because I think of how many people how many people own in the entire world ever own the iPhone one super

⏹️ ▶️ John small number. This is the iPhone one. This is the first watch just with different bands and different colors.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I don’t expect there to be a huge number of people who have this watch if the product is going to be successful, we have to look forward

⏹️ ▶️ John to the fourth iteration of this, and then see, and again, it’s always going to be capped by the number

⏹️ ▶️ John of iPhones. So all you’re looking at is what is what makes a successful watch what percentage of iPhone owners

⏹️ ▶️ John have to buy an Apple Watch for it to be a successful product 1% 2% 10%. I think

⏹️ ▶️ John now it is much less than 1%. And I think that’s just to be expected. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not worried about the Apple Watch. I don’t think Tim Cook is worried about the Apple Watch, especially since tech wise

⏹️ ▶️ John and manufacturing wise, like their investment and what they’ve done so So far, they can cruise

⏹️ ▶️ John for a few years making progressively slightly better iterations of this watch without breaking the

⏹️ ▶️ John bank. I’m sure they’ve already made back their money that they invested in developing this product. I don’t think they’re worried

⏹️ ▶️ John about that. I think they’re willing to just continue to chase this category wherever it leads and it will be fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s fair. Also, one more thing, I think one of the reasons they might have been doing this also is that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, when compared to other smartwatch vendors out there, Apple already had,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, more options for bands, colors, sizes, and materials than anyone else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And now they’ve really taken a massive lead on that. Like, you know, they already had the lead, now it’s a way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wider lead where competitively, if you look at the Samsung Galaxy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco S whatever versus the LG whatever versus the Motorola 270 whatever, then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple, like anyone who’s actually comparing these side by side, which I don’t think honestly is a big number, but anyone actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comparing them side by side would be blown away by just how many choices they have from Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco side and it’s more likely that they can find something they like on Apple’s side.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and they’re staking out the high ground. Apple always wants the most profitable section of any business and so the way you do

⏹️ ▶️ John that in anything that’s remotely related to fashion is make sure you’re the one that’s seen as the like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John we are partnering with this fashion company whose name regular people can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John pronounce and have never heard. Samsung isn’t, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple is trying to make sure that when all the dust settles, when someone thinks of what is that fancy

⏹️ ▶️ John smartwatch that all the fashion people are into, that the answer to that is Apple. And so they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John like, that’s why they’re doing, you know, that’s why they have the really super expensive gold one. That’s why they’re doing these partnerships with these

⏹️ ▶️ John fashion companies. Regular people don’t care about that. No one’s going to buy those super expensive, like, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John all for positioning. So they end up with the most profitable customers. end

⏹️ ▶️ John up with the one with the most cachet with the one that is seen as a status symbol,

⏹️ ▶️ John even after everybody had like the iPhone, remember when the iPhone was a status symbol, like celebrities would have an iPhone. Now

⏹️ ▶️ John nobody cares. Everybody has an iPhone or a smartphone. It’s not a big deal. I think what they’re doing with this

⏹️ ▶️ John fashion partnerships and stuff is trying to make sure that even after everybody has a smartwatch five years from now, no one cares. It’s not a

⏹️ ▶️ John big deal. They come in cereal boxes that through these silly partnerships, where someone sells

⏹️ ▶️ John you a strap of leather for $1,000 because it’s got a particular name on it, that that is still seen

⏹️ ▶️ John in the same way that regular fashion is. Who cares about these shoes or this dress or whatever? Like fashion

⏹️ ▶️ John is always going to be a status symbol and it’s not tied to technology, it’s tied to, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, you know, exclusivity and who’s got buzz and what’s in style

⏹️ ▶️ John and Apple’s just trying to stay on top of that. They seem so much more dedicated to it than everyone else who’s making smart watches

⏹️ ▶️ John right now.

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iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Federico Vaticci’s time has come. The iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro. I believe I heard screaming from the mountaintops of Italy when this was finally announced.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am really intrigued by it. There is no damn way I’m going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to carry around a 13-inch iPad. As someone who actually prefers an iPad mini, I just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t see myself wanting a 13-inch iPad. It is intriguing if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for no other reason than it’s a remix of all the things that came before it It’s a remix of paper

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the paper app. It’s a remake of remix of the paper pencil and it’s a remix

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the surface, but We have in the show notes the a9x. So I assume

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John you’d like to start by talking about that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really That’s what we’re talking

⏹️ ▶️ John about first I just threw it in there like, you know It’s our way into talking about the A9 and it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple continues to rev its CPU lines in in ways that

⏹️ ▶️ John were only We were accustomed to on the desktop and laptop years ago And now

⏹️ ▶️ John these low-power tablet and phone chips are following the same trajectory And I think a lot of regular people

⏹️ ▶️ John are wondering like why is the iPhone and iPad CPU like getting twice

⏹️ ▶️ John as fast every year? But my MacBook CPU does not get twice as fast every year

⏹️ ▶️ John And the answer is that the iPhone and the iPad CPUs are playing catch up. They started out way,

⏹️ ▶️ John way, way slower than your MacBook, and they’re catching up to it. Once they do catch up with it, they will not be doubling anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like there’s no magic here. There’s a little, potentially a little bit of advantage of Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John controlling all this stuff and there’s something we’ll get to in another show related to that that we’ll talk about. But, but

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s why they’re doubling. But anyway, Apple continues to put out those graphs like look how much

⏹️ ▶️ John faster our CPUs and GPUs have gotten in our iPad, and it is impressive, like their

⏹️ ▶️ John GPUs are better, and you know, it was like 22X CPU increase and 360X

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU speed, they started out so darn slow. Like that’s the magic of that graph, like, because

⏹️ ▶️ John if you just look what the axes are labeled and look how slow it was, yeah. So anyway, they’re still getting faster. The interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that Apple didn’t compare the iPad Pro to and didn’t compare the A9X to at all

⏹️ ▶️ John was any of its own laptops, because at this point, I feel like this thing has to be faster than at least some laptops that

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple sells. Don’t you think? Like in both CPU and GPU or some kind of synthetic benchmark that you’d

⏹️ ▶️ John come up with that this thing is going to be faster than like an 11 inch Air or something?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and also, I mean, compare it to its most obvious alternative, the MacBook One. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, I would guess it has to be faster than the MacBook One at certain

⏹️ ▶️ John things. That might be a horse race, depending on what you’re testing. Maybe in

⏹️ ▶️ John GPU speed, I don’t know. But anyway, that aspect of it certainly fulfills the pro aspect.

⏹️ ▶️ John the A8 was pretty darn fast anyway and the A9X,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is a worthy processor I think for the iPad Pro. Is it the first one that would have been

⏹️ ▶️ John powerful enough? Because here’s the two things about this. They’re pushing so many more pixels. Remember what happened

⏹️ ▶️ John when we first went Retina on the iPad, it was a problem. On this thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s already Retina, it’s just a bigger screen. They’re pushing more pixels and they keep talking about oh we can have this many

⏹️ ▶️ John 4K video streams and stuff like that. You have to have a pretty beefy GPU in

⏹️ ▶️ John there just to do basic things with this many pixels look at what happened with the iPhone 6 plus where it seems like it was

⏹️ ▶️ John just a little bit underpowered and they had like the weird double size screen that they shrink down to fit in

⏹️ ▶️ John the number of pixels and stuff I’m hoping they avoided all those compromises with this thing just because they have so much

⏹️ ▶️ John more room to do everything in here so the CPU GPU part definitely seems pro to me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I mean there’s a lot about it this to me this is a very confusing product honestly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s probably just because it’s not for me I really don’t think this is for me and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t I honestly am not sure I know anybody who it is for but I’m sure I’m sure a lot of people will be very happy about it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just not you know not me and the people I know but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a really first of all it’s huge I mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess you know if you can permit me to talk about the physical parts for a minute it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco massive and it’s heavy it weighs more than the iPad one and it’s larger

⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook one you mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sorry no no no I mean the iPad one it weighs less than the MacBook one with the keyboard thing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh maybe I didn’t look at that so it was also it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit it’s a bigger screen than a MacBook one you know this is 12.9 a MacBook one I think is 12 oh yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what I’m getting at like this is this is not like this is a coming in to understand it is exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John what makes it an iPad Pro it’s It’s not like, well, I would bring a laptop, but I want something smaller, so I bought the iPad Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s like Tim said on the stage, I think this is someone tweeted, like he re-emphasized for the millionth time,

⏹️ ▶️ John as I’ve said on past shows as well, that the iPad is

⏹️ ▶️ John the future of computing as far as Apple’s concerned. They’re just frustrated by their inability to make

⏹️ ▶️ John it happen, but they really believe that this kind of platform is the future

⏹️ ▶️ John of computing, not a continuous, slow, steady evolution of plain old desktop computers.

⏹️ ▶️ John And they haven’t proved that in either the market or to the customers. But finally, they’re making forward progress again

⏹️ ▶️ John after many, many years of just making differently sized but equally boring, very large phones.

⏹️ ▶️ John So the keyboard, the stylus that we’ll get to, it’s not a stylus, it’s a pencil, and all the

⏹️ ▶️ John other things shows that they’re finally moving in that direction again. Are they right? I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know. But you have to see this thing through. Like, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you really believe that this is the way that most people will be doing most of the things to do with computers in the future,

⏹️ ▶️ John then you have to make products that prove it. And so this is the first attempt.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As we talked about a couple weeks ago, I think this is gonna face a lot of the same challenges that every iPad has faced.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And just from the physical side, it is gonna be tough because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where iPads have been strong before, things like casual reading in bed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or couch use and stuff like that, for a lot of those things, this is actually gonna be uncomfortably large

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and heavy now for a lot of people. It’s actually taking a step backwards in some of those areas

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in order to achieve the big screen and everything else. And I don’t think they could have done a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better with that. I think this is just the physical realities of a device that has a screen this large. So there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna be some challenges there. But also, ergonomically, obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is made to be used with the keyboard probably frequently, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would say.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know about that, because it has, didn’t they emphasize the full-size on-screen keyboard as well?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well, yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John they gave it a couple seconds, but. I know, well, so that’s a piece of follow-up that we skipped this week, but someone saying that, I think it was

⏹️ ▶️ John a teacher saying that the students prefer the on-screen keyboard, because physical keyboards don’t have the same

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of, I think he was saying they don’t have the same sort of autocomplete type stuff or whatever. I think a generation of people

⏹️ ▶️ John who grew up tapping on glass to type, it may not be that crazy that they would prefer the on-screen

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard. This, getting to all the physical things you’re talking about this, we’ll talk

⏹️ ▶️ John about this in the end, but like whether I’m going to buy one or whatever, even though I’ve been so gung ho for the iPad Pro, I think this is a great

⏹️ ▶️ John product. And that’s going to be, you know, artists and other people who really need a big screen and want the pencil and everything

⏹️ ▶️ John or an app, people who write applications for those people, it gives them their first real shot to sell pro

⏹️ ▶️ John apps to pro people using pro hardware. It’s still kind of two things in one here. The two things are

⏹️ ▶️ John first, make a bigger iPad so people don’t feel so constrained, give it you know, for the people who want a big screen

⏹️ ▶️ John to do things, you need more pixels, need more detail and with a precision pointing device and

⏹️ ▶️ John second let the iPad do more complicated things with the keyboard with a split screen

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever and in this product they are tied together it’s a gargantuan it’s way too big for most

⏹️ ▶️ John people it’s not gonna sell well because it’s just too darn big like Margo said but all the features that are in

⏹️ ▶️ John this if you put them on the iPad Air 2 size device equally valuable to people who like that size device

⏹️ ▶️ John and I think you can shrink even all of them down maybe to the mini if you make it a a little bit bigger except for maybe the keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I feel like everything that is staked out by this product, all the functionality, even the little side port

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, and all the OS features and all the software that’s gonna be written to it, that is all valuable at

⏹️ ▶️ John sizes less than gargantuan. Unfortunately, this first product, or fortunately for the people who are interested,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is gargantuan plus all the fancy features. And I think every single one of these fancy features can and should trickle

⏹️ ▶️ John down to the extent possible allowed by the sizes. And I think that will eventually solve most of the problems that

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re talking about, Marco, because I agree with you. This thing is really big. I want an iPad Pro. I want this product.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if it’s too big for me. I don’t know. I like, if I got this, I’d be like, then I need a smaller

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad for like my other, you know what I mean? I’ll have to, and the weight, I mean, I’m using an iPad 3 now, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is a massive anyway, but I’m gonna have to try it out. But you have, this is the right move, I think, because this is staking out the

⏹️ ▶️ John high end. It’s like, if anybody’s gonna want this Pro, it’s gotta go Pro, Pro, Pro, big, big, big, pencil thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John fine arts, keyboard, people on the go, doing typing, Go to the Microsoft service

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. This is huge. This is like, you know, it’s clearly pushing in the high

⏹️ ▶️ John end type of product, but I really, really hope they don’t year after year rev the iPad Pro and keep

⏹️ ▶️ John all these features to the big one because I want all these on all the iPads, you know, to the

⏹️ ▶️ John extent possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. You know, I was thinking that I would really kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like to have a keyboard cover for my iPad mini, which kind of disgusted me because… Trust me, you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t. kind of disgusted me because I realized that’s a terrible idea. But that was my gut reaction was, man,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would be kind of convenient for like when I’m traveling because occasionally I’ll travel and not want to bring a 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook Pro, but want something that I can type on to like write emails or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so occasionally when I travel, I’ll bring my mini and my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple wireless keyboard, which if I really think that through is kind of ridiculous,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but that’s occasionally what happens. And so I agree with you, John, that having something, having a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of these features for even the smaller devices, I think that’s fairly compelling.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or even like the split screen stuff, which they’re confining possibly for CPU reasons, possibly

⏹️ ▶️ John for RAM reasons, like just everything about this, you know, it’s still two gigs of RAM. I think,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I don’t know if that’s been determined. But anyway, the fact that it used to just be the air to that two gigs of RAM

⏹️ ▶️ John and that that that extra RAM really makes the existing boring pre iOS 9 iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John experience so much better just because your crap isn’t all gone when you switch applications like those type of

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware based compromises Are going to leave on the high end first Are they’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John you know this? CPU and GPU can be faster and hotter and bigger and they could put a huge battery in here and this

⏹️ ▶️ John can have a lot of the most pixels and it can handle the Whatever they’re doing for the the pencil stuff and all like

⏹️ ▶️ John all those things should trickle down as eventually the iPad Air 2

⏹️ ▶️ John class machine can also handle all of that. And eventually the mini class machine can handle it. And maybe the mini will get a little bit bigger and maybe the keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John will be bigger than the device because you can’t have a keyboard that small because it’s insane. And

⏹️ ▶️ John I think the most exciting thing about it is, well, I would have said the most exciting thing is the addition

⏹️ ▶️ John of a rotation lock button, but I don’t think that’s there. But anyway, the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco fact

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple actually went in the opposite direction for once. Instead of slowly removing every possible button from

⏹️ ▶️ John the device, they added a new thing. They added, it’s not really a port kind of, but they added three little buttons

⏹️ ▶️ John on the bottom. That’s a new connector. It’s like, that is a, you know, that’s a pro feature. You can connect

⏹️ ▶️ John other stuff to the thing with the thing. They’re, you know, baby steps here, right? They didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John add USB ports, right? There’s no SD card slot. But if this is the future of computing, they have to

⏹️ ▶️ John eventually figure out in what ways are we going to allow this to be expanded

⏹️ ▶️ John and hardware accessorized? If you let it be expanded every way that a PCB can be expanded, you’re just repeating

⏹️ ▶️ John the sins of the past and just recreating the PC in a different form. And I don’t think Apple wants to do that. So they’re being cautious,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I like seeing them move in that direction. I like this not just being a Bluetooth accessory, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Why is it not Bluetooth? Because the Bluetooth accessory is crappier. The Bluetooth thing has to have batteries and

⏹️ ▶️ John you got Bluetooth flakiness and it’s like this. We don’t have to worry about that. It’s powered by the thing. We have a giant battery

⏹️ ▶️ John in there. You know, we can make the cover itself thinner, although it still looks kind of like a hunchback

⏹️ ▶️ John when you close it, because it’s like thick on one end and kind of gross. But anyway, generation one product,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I am excited. That was the most exciting part of the reveal thing was when they showed three little dots on the side. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John like, that’s a new port. They didn’t show a rotational lock, which is disappointing. I guess there just wasn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John enough room along the edge of the device. They needed room for all those giant empty chambers around the four speakers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the big things about this, I think, besides the size, obviously, I’ll keep harping on forever,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the price is interesting. If you look at how this is positioned, how other iPads were

⏹️ ▶️ Marco positioned before, and now how this is positioned against their other laptops, this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really a laptop replacement. Some people, obviously, idiots

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like me, will buy them and use them as toys, then also have every other kind of device, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really think most people are not gonna be spending a thousand dollars on a tablet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that is not going to replace a laptop. that for it to be this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big and this expensive it has to replace laptops for most of its customers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say and maybe that proves to be wrong who knows but that’s probably how it’s gonna go I would also expect

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a much more laptop like replacement cycle although I think we’re seeing that in most iPads actually

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so the big thing to me is software wise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are there a lot of people I know I know this is not gonna be all but are there a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for whom this can replace a laptop better than any other iPad? You know, obviously some people can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get by with the other iPads just fine. The people who couldn’t, how many of them will this be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good enough for where the other iPads weren’t?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking of this replacing a desktop for the first customers. Because it’s gonna,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m thinking again of the pencil, which we haven’t really talked about that much, but like the type, what’s the first, it’s a chicken egg thing, so you

⏹️ ▶️ John need the hardware before you can make the software, but what is the easiest market for, if you’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John sell an expensive application that costs a lot of money to develop and you’re not going to sell a lot of copies but you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to sell them for a lot of money like, and these days, you know, $99. It’s an application, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a design or art application that lets somebody use this thing and the pencil, assuming

⏹️ ▶️ John it works as advertised and it’s all impressive and great and everything, to do their main function,

⏹️ ▶️ John like their actual work, not on the go, but at their desk at their job. Like this is a little

⏹️ ▶️ John miniature Cintiq. And I know most people would say, like, for example, someone who’s using the

⏹️ ▶️ John surface to do that today. That’s great and all. But if it doesn’t run Photoshop, it’s pointless to me because

⏹️ ▶️ John what am I going to use that stylus for? And it’s using my surface, I’m going to run Photoshop, and I’m going to get my work done because that’s what I need to get

⏹️ ▶️ John my work done. So Apple does have a huge software gap here. But the history of the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John leading up to this has been, if Apple doesn’t make pro hardware, no one’s going to make pro software and everyone’s waiting for someone

⏹️ ▶️ John to go over. So Apple went first. And I think Apple is desperately hoping that somebody probably not Adobe

⏹️ ▶️ John is going to try to be the Photoshop of the iPad Pro and

⏹️ ▶️ John get people to use this thing for the as their actual computer at their desk at their work as

⏹️ ▶️ John like a desktop replacement and you can also read your email and check Twitter and have a little YouTube video

⏹️ ▶️ John playing in the corner and listen to your music and also be scribbling away with your $100

⏹️ ▶️ John Johnny Ive blessed pure white Apple pencil. That I think is the vision for

⏹️ ▶️ John this product. It’s not a reality because if you buy this thing There’s no application you can buy to do that stuff

⏹️ ▶️ John But you know Apple wants there to be and they showed AutoCAD and all these other things so

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m I’m hopeful, but I and I see where this product can go

⏹️ ▶️ John But I expect like I expect a lot of people to buy this I expect people to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John it and be bewildered by it And I just hope that everything

⏹️ ▶️ John in this product embodies more power more RAM more ports slowly spreads

⏹️ ▶️ John to the rest of the iPad line because that will finally that will finally differentiate what is the difference between an iPad and

⏹️ ▶️ John an iPhone is an iPad just a big iPhone this is not a big iPhone this is like the farthest thing from a big iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John ever so kudos to Apple for doing this and I

⏹️ ▶️ John hope the next few years is as encouraging as as this announcement is to

⏹️ ▶️ John me and and Viteechi and maybe five other people.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh goodness. So what do we think about this pencil? I do feel bad for the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey folks at, what is it, 53? There’s been a lot of Sherlocking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going on in that direction.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well look, when you choose a really generic name for your product, you run the risks like this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh absolutely. But I was expecting to be

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very blasé about the pencil. And again, it doesn’t really speak to me because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t do the sorts of things that would require a stylus. I’m a terrible artist. I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey imagine what else I would need it for. However, I thought it was a very clever piece of hardware. I like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you can tilt it to get a kind of side of a pencil stroke,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I guess it just occurred to me that’s why they call it a pencil and not a pen or anything like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I like to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that too. Please don’t email us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Sort

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of but um, but I like you can do that. Obviously the pressure sensitivity. I think we all saw that coming It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a very clever piece of kit, but I don’t know. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I Wish there was something that spoke to me, but there’s nothing that speaks to me yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John I Think it’ll be fun for well Here’s the here’s where it helps if you’re not someone who is a designer

⏹️ ▶️ John or a fine artist or someone who just noodles around in Sketches and by the way you should just get one of these for Tiff because she’ll love it to do her

⏹️ ▶️ John little art snacks things with.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so far when Tiff before this event I was asking her

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know she was she was interested in a larger iPad for video and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco game use and once she saw the event which we watched the event together she now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco says she’s no longer interested if it’s too big.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah well that’s what I said. The stylus is a perfect example of something that could fit perfectly

⏹️ ▶️ John well on an iPad Air or a mini even like no problem on a mini because the thing doesn’t fit inside the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just an accessory it’s just that all those things don’t have the screen for it so give it a year or two that stuff should trickle

⏹️ ▶️ John down

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I mean it’s this is one of those things like I have no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco opinion on the stylus because I have never been a paper and pencil or paper and pen person for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco anything I’m not a graphic artist at all in any sense I’m not a note-taker

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John I was getting it for the old fogeys thing like a setting aside all the people this is actually aimed at, the other kind of person

⏹️ ▶️ John this can appeal to, and we all know people like this who are like, usually older people who are actually

⏹️ ▶️ John more comfortable taking notes in their own handwriting, which seems, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John totally ridiculous to those of us who grew up being excited by the fact that we can press a key on a keyboard and

⏹️ ▶️ John a perfect letter a appears and we don’t have to be subject to our own handwriting, right? I was like, that’s that is

⏹️ ▶️ John the dream of these people like, you know what, I would rather do my shopping list in my own little scroll. And they just

⏹️ ▶️ John want a notes application, lets them write things, and they want to do it with their little pen. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’ve all seen people using like the Galaxy Note and stuff like people using very large phones with a stylus. Some people just like

⏹️ ▶️ John my my own mother has used I’ve seen her do it and iPod Touch, the small one

⏹️ ▶️ John with a stylus.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah, I’ve seen some family members use styli with their phones because they

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just prefer it. I think it’s insane. But that’s what they prefer.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so they’re not going to buy $1,000 iPad or whatever. Again, it’s a trickle down thing years eventually

⏹️ ▶️ John when this stuff gets spreads down the product line you know will they ever sell an Apple pencil

⏹️ ▶️ John for the iPhone probably not but if they did my mother would use it today

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah I mean there no question I think there’s a lot of people who want to use this as I said I’m not one of them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco however you know I disagree John that that note-taking is mostly mostly or only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for old people I think there’s there’s a lot of kinds of note-taking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John for which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah well no I I think there’s a lot of kinds of note-taking for which I would prefer a pen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a keyboard and mouse. You know, if you’re trying to dictate what somebody is saying, then yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a keyboard is the way to go. But for so many other kinds of note-taking, brainstorming,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco design, like there’s so many things.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, like that’s like wireframing like UIs, obviously it’s better, right? But you would actually write down text with

⏹️ ▶️ John it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it depends. Like when I, in my limited time trying to take notes as the terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco student that I I was in college. I never even tried in high school. In college, the terrible time I tried,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like math, I would definitely take math notes using a pen, not a keyboard. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John because

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not typing you got to do. It’s like practically drawing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And there’s like even computer science, I think I would probably, like there’s so many, like note taking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me is different from just transcribing what somebody is saying. You know, that’s…

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John so you’re doing that. Note taking is not typing, but like you see people when they conference

⏹️ ▶️ John talks, they’ll try to like summarize the conference talk as it’s going on, I’ll draw little pictures and put words and you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, it’s a multimedia thing. Like, yeah, I see what you’re getting at, though. I think you probably have better handwriting

⏹️ ▶️ John than I do. Because I feel like when text is involved at all, like, I need the eat up Martha feature.

⏹️ ▶️ John I needed to turn my scroll into actual readable text. So I never have to see my handwriting again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And I don’t think we did they mention any handwriting, handwriting recognition

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all. I don’t think they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John did.

⏹️ ▶️ John They didn’t it’s in OS 10 right now. If you if you hook up a tablet, you can go use it. And

⏹️ ▶️ John and it is still basically eat up Martha Caliber. So, you know, baby steps like this

⏹️ ▶️ John is not what this is aimed at. It wasn’t even mentioned. I was probably not even in there. But many years from now, kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John like speech to text and text to speech. Eventually, it just gets good enough that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like, why not add it? Every handwriting recognition is not at that stage yet, but it will be eventually.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I think they showed it in the Microsoft thing, like people who are familiar with the Newton are like, oh, so I draw

⏹️ ▶️ John a rough shape and it makes a nice shape for me. Where have I seen that before? Like, that is, this is not

⏹️ ▶️ John new technology, but it still feels like magic to me. When he draws the little scrawl of an arrow

⏹️ ▶️ John in the Office application, it becomes the little thing. It draws the circles and they become circles. It’s kind of the bad kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of magic in that you can never tell really what it’s gonna do and half the time it doesn’t work. But that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like a, that’s a glimpse of the magic future, that someday if that worked as reliable as

⏹️ ▶️ John speech to text does now. I mean when I was a kid I could never imagine that speech text would be so boring

⏹️ ▶️ John that we just that like did anyone See we’ll get the Apple TV in a little bit But like the Apple TV Siri demo and like

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s no way it’s gonna understand my voice like that We’ve all used Siri

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not great But it is complete magic by the by the standards like you know a kid

⏹️ ▶️ John of the 80s like when we were like imagine if just like every device with any amount of computing

⏹️ ▶️ John power like You can talk to it your watch for crying out loud You can talk to it and it will

⏹️ ▶️ John do a passable job of figuring out what you said and putting it in text. That is amazing and that is the magic

⏹️ ▶️ John of like the cost of that feature going down to zero. Handwriting recognition should also

⏹️ ▶️ John get to that stage eventually. People who use the Microsoft products may say it’s already there because they have this thing where it will

⏹️ ▶️ John let you write in your own little chicken scratch handwriting but under the cover is translated into text but leave your chicken

⏹️ ▶️ John scratch there so that it knows what you wrote so you can full text search for it. Like Like it’s already happening on the Microsoft side.

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel like that is flakier than speech to text is on most platforms these

⏹️ ▶️ John days, but it’s close. I think we’re at the cusp. So again, maybe three revisions from now.

⏹️ ▶️ John The new version of the Notes application in, are they still gonna call it iOS? I gotta

⏹️ ▶️ John think of what the new name is gonna be. Yeah, I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco so.

⏹️ ▶️ John In iOS version 13 or 14, it’s like, and the new version of the Notes application

⏹️ ▶️ John lets you write with the Apple mini pencil and it will also do

⏹️ ▶️ John full text search and they’ll do a demo of it and it will be like Microsoft did that five years ago, what are you doing Apple? But everyone will love

⏹️ ▶️ John it because it will be all white.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s another thing to quickly point out here. Normally the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco people who are not Apple fans, people who are really fans of other platforms, whether it’s Windows or Android or both,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco let’s face it, nobody uses Linux anymore. Usually every Apple event, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a couple of things where those people get really mad about because Apple did something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you know they copied someone else or they did something that other people have done before. This maybe this is because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s so many things announced here but this event seems like there was a higher than normal percentage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of those of those things is that? But

⏹️ ▶️ John all of them the Newton did first. It’s like yeah oh sure Microsoft service did it first right but who

⏹️ ▶️ John did it firster? You know and even the Newton it’s like well then what about the the grid pad Like you just keep going

⏹️ ▶️ John back in time. Everyone’s done these things before we don’t care who did it We care who did it best or did it in a way

⏹️ ▶️ John that was convincing to people? We don’t know this is gonna be convincing like people who use a service as we’ve heard from them

⏹️ ▶️ John love their service But they’re not selling a lot of them I don’t think they’re gonna sell a lot of these pros either but

⏹️ ▶️ John I think because Apple does sell a ton of iOS devices and people do want to use a

⏹️ ▶️ John Pencil like thing with iOS devices that Apple has the potential to sell more of

⏹️ ▶️ John these silly hundred dollar Hopefully that price goes down. Pencil things in the next five years than

⏹️ ▶️ John Microsoft does.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I agree with you, Marco, that a lot of this felt like everything is a remix. And to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey build on what John just said, we should probably talk about pricing and then move on to some of the other stuff in the keynote.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Starting at $800 for 32 gigs, yay, 32 gigs. $950 for 128.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And interestingly, the only option for Wi-Fi plus

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cellular is the $1,080 128GB iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought that somewhat surprising because for all the other iPads, you can get cellular

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on any size you want. But for this, if you want cellular, you’re going whole hog and that’s the end of the meeting.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think my iPad 3 was close to $1,000, like all in. So like

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m looking at these prices, maybe I’m crazy, but I’m looking at these prices and thinking, you know what, for a 13 inch thing with

⏹️ ▶️ John four, 13 inch iOS device with four gigs of RAM, that’s not, that

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t seem crazy to me. Like, I feel like I’m getting my money’s worth. I’m getting a lot of pixels and getting a lot of power.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m getting new features that the other devices don’t have. And it’s quote unquote, only a thousand dollars that

⏹️ ▶️ John start. I would rather have this than an iPad, a MacBook Air 11

⏹️ ▶️ John inch. I don’t know about you guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. I mean, it depends. I mean, it’s, you know, like price wise, it It is expensive. I mean, you’re right,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you decked out an iPad before, if you got the max config before of the full-sized iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was always $929. But the fact is, over time, I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the average selling price of iPads, I think, has gone down. I think we even have numbers for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, they’ve been dropping the price. But I’m just saying, if people offered you,

⏹️ ▶️ John someone came to your house and said, I will either give you a new decked out 11-inch Air or a

⏹️ ▶️ John new decked out iPad Pro. I know you don’t want either one of these devices, but which one do you, you’re gonna get it for free,

⏹️ ▶️ John pick one of them. Wouldn’t you all pick the iPad Pro just because it’s more interesting?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Probably, but we’re not normal. I don’t know, I mean, it’s certainly cooler.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s certainly, and it’s certainly more specialized. And that’s the problem. Like I mentioned last episode of the one before

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how I was kind of disappointed that a lot of Apple’s products keep getting more specialized and that it used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to, the answer to the question of who is this for, for most of their products, like five years ago,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the answers to that were very broad. Whereas, almost everybody could use almost any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of their computers for almost any purpose, and it would work pretty well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The definitions were more broad. Whereas now, I think we’re seeing a lot more specialization from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco products, and by nature, that is exclusionary. It’s not like this

⏹️ ▶️ John is- It’s not exclusionary, though. It is making more different products for more different people. Instead of saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John we make three computers and the entire world is gonna pick one of our three computers, they’re like, some people don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ John want a computer, some people want a phone, some people want a small phone, some people want a big phone, some people want a tablet, some people want a small

⏹️ ▶️ John tablet, some people want a big tablet, some people want a tablet with a stylus. So each individual product is more narrowly focused,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re right, but I think they’re covering more of the spectrum. This is just, you know, it’s the whole, as

⏹️ ▶️ John the cost of compute drops to zero, like that becomes less of a factor, and it’s just like, what are the needs

⏹️ ▶️ John of the customers, and how can we meet them with lots of different products? Nobody needs all of these products.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s the same thing with the big phones. Some people just wanted a big phone. Some people have a big phone and they’re like, you know what, I don’t need a PC

⏹️ ▶️ John or a laptop. Everything I do is fine on my big phone. I do all my web browsing on it, I do all my buying, I do

⏹️ ▶️ John all my things, I watch my Netflix on it, I don’t need a computer anymore. Is that mean that, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John that phone is for fewer people than the laptop was? Yeah, kind of, because if you just sold everyone a PC

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was just a general purpose thing, you could do everything on a PC, that will, you know, suit everyone’s

⏹️ ▶️ John needs. But some people would rather just have a really big honking phone. And so I think this diversification

⏹️ ▶️ John is natural. Are you uncomfortable because you feel like any individual

⏹️ ▶️ John product now has a narrower range of people that it appeals to and you still would rather them make a smaller

⏹️ ▶️ John line of products that appeal to a wider range

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of people? Well, okay. So stepping back, I think I agree with you. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right. This is not exclusionary. So you’re right. Having more products that covers more of the market,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a good thing for inclusion. I have two worries here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Number one, I do worry that Apple is very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much a fan of pushing things forward and killing old things or ending support for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco old things. And so if I see them launching major products in a direction that is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really at odds with with my own needs, I get worried from that point of view that the things that serve my needs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are going to be ended at some point in the future. So anyway, besides that though,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do think there is a, I think they have a severe problem right now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that their product lines are just really big. There are so many different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco models of everything. There’s so many little and big variations that you can order with any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco product line. There are so many product lines now. So this has a number of challenges.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of them obviously is that they are stretching their resources really thin in a lot of areas, especially things like engineering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and quality. They stretch these things very, very thin. They don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as big of a staff as everyone would assume a company of that financial resource would have.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they really, I mean, it seems like they’re like waging a war

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on all fronts with relatively small resources. So I’m a little worried about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they’re being kind of smart with the sharing because it’s kind of like, you know, the restaurant

⏹️ ▶️ John where you realize everything they serve a combination of

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey five different ingredients, right? Even

⏹️ ▶️ John though they have 27 dishes, you’re like, wait a second, this is just ingredient a plus ingredient B plus

⏹️ ▶️ John ingredient C and different combinations. I think they’re doing a pretty good job of sharing because

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, for a long time, they did too much sharing where the iPad really was just iOS and it’s a device and it’s a bigger screen. But like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the core OS Darwin, the kernel being shared across all their stuff, and then up the stack,

⏹️ ▶️ John Objective C, Swift, the fact that they’re you know the Mac is a little bit of the odd man

⏹️ ▶️ John out at these times because everything else is kind of like an iOS variant and although they’re trying to put a brave

⏹️ ▶️ John face on like, you know TV OS watch OS and the inevitable lowercase Mac OS which will make me sad

⏹️ ▶️ John That they’re giving it different names but that’s that’s basically the same OS like it is it they have they’ve done

⏹️ ▶️ John a pretty good job Of having a core technology stack and a core manufacturing stack We make

⏹️ ▶️ John solid aluminum backed machined things with lithium ion batteries and screens on the front and camera

⏹️ ▶️ John like how many It’s like wait a second All these devices are just different combinations of the same

⏹️ ▶️ John things in different sizes and even the Macs are kind of you know the Macs were the first ones to be big CNC milled

⏹️ ▶️ John out blocks of aluminum with lithium ion batteries and the keyboards and the dome switches are in these like

⏹️ ▶️ John in the same keyboard covers and the same keyboard was on all the laptops and that same keyboard is on their desktop Macs and like

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I think they’re being like, I think it’s how they can get away with this a being the biggest company in the world and having a million

⏹️ ▶️ John bazillion dollars, right? And be being smart about, like sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of working on this, unlike all their services, where they don’t seem to work in infrastructure, they work

⏹️ ▶️ John on infrastructure of like, can we get really good at machining aluminum and polishing and finishing it? If we can do

⏹️ ▶️ John that everywhere, do it on the watch, do it on the desktops, do it on the tablets, do it on the phones, doing the big phone small,

⏹️ ▶️ John like just everywhere, right? And little cameras and LCD screen technology.

⏹️ ▶️ John Every time they try to get good at something like that, it pays dividends across the entire product line. So I

⏹️ ▶️ John think hardware wise, they’re doing well there. Software wise, you have a point with like the sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of rushing out to get to a platform, all the engineers run over here and concentrate on that and everything

⏹️ ▶️ John else languishes and gets a little fidgety or whatever. So I’m hoping El Cap is a return to form

⏹️ ▶️ John and I hope they learn their lesson to try to rein things back in. TV has had a long time to get super crappy

⏹️ ▶️ John without people paying attention to it. I’m hoping this is the time when it’s like the stored up,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, sort of potential energy from all those years when Apple TV got crappier and crappier now is going to come. But

⏹️ ▶️ John it could also be that you’re right, that they overextended themselves and the new Apple TV is super flaky and

⏹️ ▶️ John buggy. And it’s like, we waited all this time for this. So none of us

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey have

⏹️ ▶️ John the device yet and we can’t tell. But I think some of your fears are founded, But when I look at their hardware,

⏹️ ▶️ John at product design, I’m amazed at how much bang they get for their buck

⏹️ ▶️ John in figuring out these few core things and combining this small set of ingredients

⏹️ ▶️ John to make a fairly large variety of products that I think has the potential

⏹️ ▶️ John to appeal to more people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I guess you can look at it, you know, similarly to like, Google is so so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good at large engineering projects, especially things involving big data and artificial intelligence

⏹️ ▶️ Marco type things, that Google seems to have incredibly wide bandwidth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and throughput of engineering resources. So they can solve problems better than almost anybody else,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but that are solvable by tons of engineering work. Whereas Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like Apple’s core competency is in making the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hardware, all these aluminum and glass things. So Apple can solve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco challenges in the market and can be more competitive by throwing massive amounts of this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of hardware at it. So Apple actually

⏹️ ▶️ John can. And also the OS, don’t you think? Like the frameworks, they’re pretty good

⏹️ ▶️ John at that. Like making sure their software is responsive, making sure their frameworks are performant,

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to share frameworks across like AV Foundation, things across iOS and the Mac, those same things

⏹️ ▶️ John are on the phone or on the watch. Like that is also a good and clever use of resources.

⏹️ ▶️ John Once you get into the software, you could say, Oh, yeah, but their actual applications are crappy or yeah, but the people

⏹️ ▶️ John writing code against those frameworks are doing a bad job. But I think in general, like compared to Google,

⏹️ ▶️ John Google took a long time to get Android sort of up to snuff where Apple started out in terms of prioritizing

⏹️ ▶️ John responsiveness of the UI and making it look nice and and having

⏹️ ▶️ John consistent and understandable interface paradigm and all that

⏹️ ▶️ John other stuff. So Apple has strengths in that area too. It’s just sort of towards the edges when you get into,

⏹️ ▶️ John okay, you’ve got good hardware, you’ve got a pretty good platform, your language and IDE

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything seems pretty solid. Your frameworks look okay, except for the first year one of them comes out, then all the frameworks are crappy.

⏹️ ▶️ John But the second year, they’re all good. But then what are you writing with? What applications do you write on top of

⏹️ ▶️ John it? And then you’re like, well, Apple’s apps are kind of crappy and don’t get any better. third-party apps aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John allowed to do interesting things and you get into complaints in that realm but I think Apple’s strengths

⏹️ ▶️ John are pretty broad definitely in hardware I think definitely in OS

⏹️ ▶️ John and kind of in frameworks and in applications is like the edges where things are fraying at this point.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco sent one as a gift. They are so great. So basically what it is,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is it’s a really, really thin, lightweight piece of glass. on the back side of it shining through

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the front is printed your photo in vivid color right on the glass. So it looks like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your photo is printed on glass but it has the nice gloss from the front glass right in front of it. So it’s really, really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nice. And it’s thin and lightweight, bonded to a little bit of foam board so you can mount like a picture hanging nail

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in there. So you don’t have to worry, like I know Gruber was talking on his pocket this week, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have the same stresses of like, I don’t want, I don’t like hanging large, heavy framed pictures

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on my wall because I’m always afraid they’re gonna fall off and tear the wall out and shatter or make a big hole everywhere and make a big

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s nothing like that. You just get it. It’s a finished product, hangs on the wall, prints edge to edge directly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on glass and it looks fantastic. And John, you got some fractures, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, my wife had this idea and it was a good one. I don’t have any applications like Marco because Marco’s got his app icons

⏹️ ▶️ John on fractures up on his walls. But I’m on a bunch of podcasts and so she said, podcast

⏹️ ▶️ John artist square, why don’t you get little fractures of all the podcasts you’re on? And so I did

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re cute and I have them up on my wall and I have six of them, seven of them actually because one that

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco and Tiff sent me is a gift, it’s a picture of us live recording ATP. So this is,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I guess I’m just buying gifts myself and I’ve got pictures of my family on my desk and everything but

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing you don’t think to do is you know like Margo’s done if you’re if you have like a work room

⏹️ ▶️ John put pictures of your accomplishments up on the wall and it’s like I would never do it if I had to like make

⏹️ ▶️ John prints of all these then go to a store and buy frames and hang the frames the fact that I could just go to a web form upload a

⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of pictures click a click and know that something would come that I don’t need to frame that’s ready to hang on the wall

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what made me actually do this and it was super easy and it was great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, Fracture, it is so good. We always get compliments on the Fracture prints we have on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our wall. Anybody who comes into my office always says something, oh, are those the Fractures or what are those? They look great.

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New Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so the Apple TV is new and it’s called Apple TV.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s called the new Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey It’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an iPad 3 move. It’s it’s this is just the new one and then you know next year They will they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco will retcon this one the Apple TV 4 and they’ll make a new new Apple TV They were

⏹️ ▶️ John always just called Apple TV, right? Like there were the numbers

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John we knew we knew the numbers internally, but there was never in the branding I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well it never mattered before you know like, you know now that it’s an app platform It will start to matter you know like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think now the specs will matter more people will know the specs more They will advertise the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco specs more and when new generations come out They will push what is new about them, and they will give

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. I think you know numbered names of some kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’ll see So this thing has an a8 it has as far as we know two gigs of RAM 32

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or 64 gig storage And it has this new fancy remote that has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a little mini touchpad on it and is also a Wiimote all-in-one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can we just complain for a second about no gigabit Ethernet?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Seriously? Yeah, what year is this? Like, it’s so tall. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco so much room in there.

⏹️ ▶️ John 10, 100? Because then you’re like, oh, I’ve got to make sure I don’t hook it up to a hub or a

⏹️ ▶️ John switch that downgrades everything. I know video is never going to be 100 megabits anyway. It’s just the principle of things.

⏹️ ▶️ John They did the whole alphabet soup of Wi-Fi, and they gave it reasonable storage. There’s no 16-gig model.

⏹️ ▶️ John It starts at 32, unlike some other products we might mention later. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ John two gigs of RAM, A8, looks great. 10100, is there anything? Like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John hope people stop supporting 10100, so Apple will be forced. Anyway, fine, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s better, it’s taller, it’s good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, anyway, so yeah, the remote, I think we can talk a lot about this remote.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First of all, upsides. I am very happy to see both

⏹️ ▶️ Marco RF instead of IR, so you don’t need line of sight, you don’t need to keep the box out and make sure the IR

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gets there. Finally, as they say. Exactly. And I’m very glad to see some kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of universal remote capability. I’m not sure how, does that work through HDMI signaling or something? Or is there?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John The existing Apple TV has this. I’m assuming it’s just the same feature. Your existing Apple TV goes in the other direction,

⏹️ ▶️ John where you can use any remote you want with your Apple TV, like the previous

⏹️ ▶️ John generation.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh yeah, I do.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is, you can use this remote. It’s exactly the same functionality, but the reverse, where you can

⏹️ ▶️ John have this thing control your other devices by training it to say, basically

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s got an IR thing. It’s gotta have an IR thing. Is it basically like?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey No, no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, I think you guys are all wrong on this. So my understanding of the way this works is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s a Bluetooth remote, and then using some protocol, shoot, I took

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a note on this, let me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John stall for time. The CEC thing? Is that how it controls your volume?

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, please don’t let that be true.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yes, no, they mentioned it. No, no, no,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, no. Schiller said CDC to control.

⏹️ ▶️ John I know it has a CDC to control the other stuff, to turn, change your input or whatever and all that other stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John So.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tiffster says it has IR for the volume up down.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It’s gotta be for the volume, all right? So that’s just gotta be, but all right. So that’s a separate thing. Like you

⏹️ ▶️ John can, it’s a learning remote. You can teach it what does your TV expect you to spray at it in IR to make the volume

⏹️ ▶️ John go up and down. For everything else that they mentioned, like, oh, it can change your input on your thing to

⏹️ ▶️ John this, and it can control your other devices and make sure your TV’s turned on. It’s using CEC, which is some HDMI

⏹️ ▶️ John standard, which is a piece of crap. I don’t know if the standard is a piece of crap, or every single product in the entire

⏹️ ▶️ John universe that implements this

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco standard is a piece of crap. It doesn’t matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John said HDMI.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That implies all of that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco exactly,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? And so, oh, it is so bad, right? So this comes under a million different names. If you buy Panasonic stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s called like VeraCast. If you buy Samsung, it’s a different name. This is all the same standard.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t know, again, I don’t know who to blame for it, but I tweeted about it and a million

⏹️ ▶️ John people were like, I have this on my Sony television, hooked up on a Sony receiver with my

⏹️ ▶️ John Sony remote and it’s still nothing works. I’ve got a mixed stack here with Panasonic and

⏹️ ▶️ John I forgot my Yamaha receiver or whatever. Like, here’s the thing about CEC. It almost works.

⏹️ ▶️ John You hook it all up and you’re like, hey, this is great. All these different manufacturers who, they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John cooperating on this standard and I can hit this thing and it will do all this stuff or whatever, but then it stops working. And then you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know why. And then everything freezes. Like one person said, I had a brownout once and CEC has never worked again.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, it’s inexplicable. It’s like SCSI termination. For the really old people, terminating SCSI

⏹️ ▶️ John chains, that black magic, that’s what CEC is like, but worse, because it’s with your TV that you just expect to work.

⏹️ ▶️ John So, I played with this stuff extensively when I redid my television setup

⏹️ ▶️ John twice. I tried it, I tried it once and I said, Maybe it’s not ready, I tried it several years later. I got it

⏹️ ▶️ John all working, but there were just enough flakiness and just enough failure weight, the solution. If

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re dealing with anything with CEC, if you have a television, a receiver, anything, you will make your life better.

⏹️ ▶️ John Turn that off on every single one of your devices. Don’t leave a single one with CEC enabled because it will screw

⏹️ ▶️ John up everything. Just turn it off everywhere. Turn it off on your receiver, turn it off on your TV, turn it off on your remote, turn it off on your Blu-ray player,

⏹️ ▶️ John turn it off everywhere. Turn it off on your game console. Then you will have a slightly more annoying system

⏹️ ▶️ John because you got to turn different things on, but everything will actually work.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey So

⏹️ ▶️ John what does

⏹️ ▶️ Casey CDC stand for? CEC, it’s like. Oh, C-E-C. CEC,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John yeah. Oh, oh, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh. It never goes by that name, because every manufacturer has a different name for it. It’s supposed to let your other devices talk to each other. The

⏹️ ▶️ John one I had presses one button that it knows to turn the receiver on and change the input to, and turn the television on, and turn

⏹️ ▶️ John the volume to this, and do it like, it’s supposed to be so they can all communicate with each other. And it almost works,

⏹️ ▶️ John it almost does, but it is just so incredibly frustrating.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco That it just,

⏹️ ▶️ John seriously. So I guess it’s nice that Apple includes this. There’s a chance it could work fine for

⏹️ ▶️ John you. That chance seems slim. It seems really slim. Like I would encourage people who,

⏹️ ▶️ John I know I’m asking for feedback, if you have a television setup with a bunch of CEC enabled devices

⏹️ ▶️ John and it just works all the time and never any problems, I’ve heard from zero of those people. So I’m asking if

⏹️ ▶️ John that happened to you, send us an email or a tweet and say, I use CEC,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve been using it for years and I never have a problem with it. I don’t think we’ll get any emails, but who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t think there were any Tap-to-the-Wizards out there. All I know is when I mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ John it on Twitter, all I got were replies from people. I said, CEC is the devil, and everyone’s like, yes, it

⏹️ ▶️ John is the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco devil. And they

⏹️ ▶️ John just had horror stories about it. So that’s not to say that Apple shouldn’t have included it. It’s fine. Go ahead and include

⏹️ ▶️ John it. But if you have grand plans that you think this is gonna save you, this is not an Apple technology. This

⏹️ ▶️ John is a quote-unquote industry standard technology, and it’s a piece of crap.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Real-time follow-up, I apologize to the both of you, there is an IR transmitter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the remote as per the spec page on Apple’s website. I’m still not clear if it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey learning transmitter or not, but- The

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John volume will work. That

⏹️ ▶️ Casey part

⏹️ ▶️ John will totally work for you. If you’re buying this and you expect to use the volume

⏹️ ▶️ John control, that will work on your TV.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s honestly all I want, because that’s the only reason I had any of the remotes out, was, although turning the TV on and off

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be another thing, but is that what CEC is supposed to do?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and even for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that,

⏹️ ▶️ John just don’t use

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it. Okay, I won’t, don’t worry.

⏹️ ▶️ John Use a separate thing to turn it, it’s fine. You’ll survive. I guarantee you my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco TV is too old to support it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, probably. All right, so I’m done being angry about CEC and now I can be angry about this remote.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because the other thing about this is, like the thing I kept

⏹️ ▶️ John thinking of looking at this remote, which obviously this is better than the previous Apple TV remote, which everyone hates and gets lost in your silver

⏹️ ▶️ John cushions, right? Is it? Yeah. go

⏹️ ▶️ John ahead. Anyway, it’s better because it has more buttons, more actual buttons on it, and it’s got the little touchpad

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. It’s gotta be better. Anyway, the TiVo remote is the one I always think of. TiVo was

⏹️ ▶️ John the first sort of big mass market company, I think, because it’s, you know, television

⏹️ ▶️ John remotes, every year you buy, you know, the TVs come with a differently shaped remote and there are trends in remote shapes

⏹️ ▶️ John and trends in what the buttons look like and how they’re shaped and like, there’s no sort of one theme. But because

⏹️ ▶️ John TiVo was a singular thing and kept its remote design for a long time, people know what a TiVo remote looks like.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you say, what does a Sony remote look like? Well, what year, what decade did you buy your TV? So that’s why I’m singling out TiVo

⏹️ ▶️ John here. And I think TiVo is one of the first companies in this sort of singular, identifiable way that designed

⏹️ ▶️ John a remote around two things, around actual human hands that hold things,

⏹️ ▶️ John and also around like an interface design that recognized the most common things people

⏹️ ▶️ John want to do. Now TiVo remotes have a million buttons on them. I totally acknowledge that it’s not appropriate for Apple. I’m not saying

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple should have made a TiVo remote. But the things that the TiVo remote got right, like I said, they

⏹️ ▶️ John made a shape that is not shaped like a rectangular solid or like a piece of art or like

⏹️ ▶️ John something. It is shaped like something that is meant to be held in your hand. It’s meant to be easily scooped up off a

⏹️ ▶️ John hard surface or a couch and meant to be held comfortably in your hand. It’s shaped kind of like, if you don’t know what a

⏹️ ▶️ John TiVo remote looks like, it looks kind of like a bone. It’s like two bulbous ends with a thin thing in the middle

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s it feels good to hold in a way that a rounded rectangle or a sharp corner

⏹️ ▶️ John rectangle or any kind of rectangle or even like a Wii remote the TiVo remote is

⏹️ ▶️ John a much better fit for gripping human hands and the second thing if I pick up any TiVo remote dead center

⏹️ ▶️ John in the middle on the sort of neck of the thing is a gigantic big brightly colored largest button on the remote

⏹️ ▶️ John which is the pause button the play button because that’s the big feature of the TiVo it’s like oh you can pause live TV or whatever and

⏹️ ▶️ John just above it is the play button and again there are a million buttons around it I’m not saying that’s that’s what Apple should have done

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s a testament to the Tivo’s design that the million buttons on the Tivo remote are all shaped

⏹️ ▶️ John in distinct ways are put in clusters of related functionality that anyone’s had a Tivo

⏹️ ▶️ John for years you can grab that thing and find the buttons you want without looking at it in a sea of a

⏹️ ▶️ John huge number of buttons you can find the directional pads you can find like I don’t need to look at my Tivo remote I can hit

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of buttons all over the thing with hand shimmies and all those stuff without ever looking at it because every

⏹️ ▶️ John button is distinct. You can feel it. It’s not just a bunch of little tiny rectangles, not a bunch of uniform

⏹️ ▶️ John circles in a grid. And the buttons are different sizes and the larger ones are more common, the smaller ones

⏹️ ▶️ John are more obscure. And again, related functionality is localized. It is a brilliant

⏹️ ▶️ John remote design. They’ve tweaked it a little bit over the years. Again, not appropriate for Apple. What I wanna see is that philosophy,

⏹️ ▶️ John that philosophy of acknowledging those things, that human hands are gonna hold this. It’s not going to be placed as a piece of

⏹️ ▶️ John art in the Museum of Modern Art, and Johnny Ives is gonna look at it in scowl, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s gonna be held by human hands, it’s gonna be on couches, it’s gonna be on surfaces where people have to pick it up, and

⏹️ ▶️ John some functions are more common than others. So every single button shouldn’t be the same size, related functions

⏹️ ▶️ John should be grouped together, and it should basically

⏹️ ▶️ John work more like people expect it to and less like a designer wants it to look. This looks like

⏹️ ▶️ John still too much form over function, not enough function dictating form.

⏹️ ▶️ John Still better than the little tiny silver thing with the stupid little directional circle that you can never tell which direction you’re putting.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I like the touch thing, and voice is the ultimate thing. We don’t have to hit buttons at all, and I agree with all of that, but

⏹️ ▶️ John this is, in the grand scheme of remote design, this is not a great remote design.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I kinda like the old one, honestly. But, you know, this, I mean, this looks fine. I’m looking forward to trying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I kinda miss with the old one that there was like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big center button, Like you could you could just pick it up without looking at it and you could operate everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without ever looking. This I think is going to take some getting used to because like the play pauses like this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it shapes just like all the other buttons and I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John but I

⏹️ ▶️ John think you’ll use it. I think the idea is that you can get away with using the swipey stuff and by the way did you

⏹️ ▶️ John I put some of the notes in the thing but if you looked at the little guide of like the Apple television human interface guidelines

⏹️ ▶️ John they show an animation not with fingers but with dots showing the things you can do and they say

⏹️ ▶️ John swipe fine I know what a swipe is as you swipe across the little touchpad, right? Then they show both a click and

⏹️ ▶️ John a tap, which are supposedly distinct things. And how the hell are they distinct? How is a click different? There’s no

⏹️ ▶️ John button, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John understand this. Who knows? Like the click is more intentional. It’s like, do you press harder? Do you have

⏹️ ▶️ John to bend the remote in half? Is it the force you strike it with? Are there force sensors in it? I have no idea, but.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I mean, is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this not tap to click all over again? You know, there’s a click and then there’s a tap and they’re two different things. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t understand. I mean, we haven’t touched this device, so we can’t tell. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I can’t tell whether this is good

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco or bad. But

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, I like the idea that I can pretend that the buttons don’t exist. But even if you just pretend the buttons don’t exist, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John this thing is too low profile, too thin and too small to be comfortable to hold. That’s why

⏹️ ▶️ John like they sell those wooden holsters for the old Apple TV remote for people to turn it into something that’s large enough that

⏹️ ▶️ John A, doesn’t get lost and B, feels good in your hand.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t know, we’ll see. Now, I was just looking at the Apple website, the specs

⏹️ ▶️ Casey site, and it says in the box for the new Apple TV, Apple TV, Siri Remote, Power Cord,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Lightning to USB cable. Is that gonna be the same one we always have? And if so, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ever so slightly presumptuous because the only USB on this is USB-C. So is that a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Lightning to USB-C cable? Or is that just a regular Lightning to USB cable? Yeah, because presumably it’s to charge the battery,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? It’s to charge the remote, I would imagine. And so it seems a little weird to me that they would include

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a cable that you can’t plug into the device in order to charge the remote you need for the device.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s also, I think it’s kind of funny, honestly, that this is the second

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple device to have a USB-C port. That’s a good point, actually.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I didn’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey about

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that.

⏹️ ▶️ John It seems appropriate, because it’s kind of like the second, the first device to be totally redesigned

⏹️ ▶️ John in the USB-C era, discounting iOS devices, which I guess are sticking with Lightning.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess, but yeah, that’s a good point, Casey. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think the whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, you know, charging through Lightning, that should be fine. It does seem to have, you know, based on,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what did they say, like, oh yeah, said like providing months of battery life. Now the old Apple TV remote

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seemed to provide years of battery life to the point where I think I buy a new Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I think I’ve only had to replace the battery in an Apple TV remote I think twice and I’ve been using Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco TV since the first one.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve never had to replace mine because I don’t use it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There you go so you know this this is gonna have an interesting problem where it’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be hopefully it’ll warn you ahead of time when it’s running low it’s it’s just it’s a good battery life of of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco quote months that you will generally never have to charge it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco except one night when it dies. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John but

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s such

⏹️ ▶️ John a small battery it’ll charge so fast. It’s kind of like the pencil where they’re like, 15 seconds of charging gives 30 minutes

⏹️ ▶️ John of use. Like that’s the advantage of small batteries is. Yeah, and because it’s Bluetooth, it will be

⏹️ ▶️ John able to tell the thing, hey, your remote is low and you’ll plug it in and you’ll plug it in for a half an hour and you’ll be good to

⏹️ ▶️ John go for like another month or something so I think it’ll be

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And by that rationale, the new iPhones charge really fast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh goodness, we’re not getting there yet. Not getting there yet. All right, let’s talk about Siri

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the TV because apparently, John, you wanted to talk about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I like that. Everything like that demos well, especially when you don’t actually do a demo, but you just so can movies like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, show me all the James Bond movies, only the ones with Sean Connery, blah, blah, blah. Although if you say

⏹️ ▶️ John only, it might not work. You might have to say just and it becomes like a text adventure. And anyway, anything,

⏹️ ▶️ John anything is better than trying to enter text with a remote control. We all agree on that. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I think there’s a lot of leeway for people to struggle with Siri before it

⏹️ ▶️ John becomes as painful as

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco trying

⏹️ ▶️ John to type things into a search box. So this is what we all wanted. If it works as designed, like

⏹️ ▶️ John you’ve all tried the Amazon Fire, I think, well, Marco has one, and I don’t know if Casey’s tried it, but like put a microphone

⏹️ ▶️ John on the remote, let me speak some stuff. When it works, it’s useful. When it doesn’t, it’s kind of annoying.

⏹️ ▶️ John But again, there is a long gap before. It’s like, is this more annoying than trying to type things

⏹️ ▶️ John on a keyboard, especially if that keyboard is not QWERTY but is in alphabetical order on the screen or something crazy like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I hope, I really hope it works like they show it working. But someone

⏹️ ▶️ John tweeted a joke, which it was a joke, but it shows like the immediate limits you run into.

⏹️ ▶️ John Show me, but the shopping thing, show me all the headphones that Marco likes, but only the ones that are

⏹️ ▶️ John under $800. They don’t know who Marco is. They should. He’s in your contacts. Can you figure

⏹️ ▶️ John it? Like it’s a human would be able to do it, but Siri can’t and so you know that’s unfair

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously you know series not artificial intelligence but once you can talk to something and start being

⏹️ ▶️ John conversational with it as soon as you hit those limits and we all know the limits are there as soon as you hit them uh it breaks the

⏹️ ▶️ John illusion and it becomes a little bit frustrating but hopefully the the benefits

⏹️ ▶️ John of never having to use an on-screen keyboard to do stuff far outweigh you

⏹️ ▶️ John know the the downsides of bumping into the invisible walls that constitute the current limits

⏹️ ▶️ John of AI.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and what impressed me a lot about Siri was that, especially in the Apple TV demos

⏹️ ▶️ Casey they did, it seemed to do better with context than it’s ever done before. And I know one of the features of Siri

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pretty much since launch was, oh, we understand context and it’s conversational. But like you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey were saying, oh, show me an action movie. Oh, show me the James Bond movies. No, show me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the James Bond movies with Sean Connery. I’m actually misstating this. It’s not show me the James Bond movies

⏹️ ▶️ Casey each time. So, okay, show me James Bond movies. No, show me the ones with Sean Connery. And so that context

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is captain. And it looked impressive. Now, we’ll see how it actually works. But in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey principle, it certainly demoed really well. And I mean, I’m looking forward to trying it if I end up getting one of these, which knowing

⏹️ ▶️ Casey me, I probably will.

⏹️ ▶️ John I worry that it will work well for programmers who think procedurally, who think of it as like a series of filter

⏹️ ▶️ John operations. But if you give it to a regular person, like it’s you see little kids do it with Siri all the time, like on your

⏹️ ▶️ John phone. just start talking to it like a person. If you’re a programmer, and you’re thinking of it as

⏹️ ▶️ John like, I understand this, this is a series of filter steps. And there’s probably some leeway

⏹️ ▶️ John in the in the syntax. But there’s like, what you’re doing is you’re holding in your head as a programmer,

⏹️ ▶️ John what you know to be the context state, so that when you say just the ones with Sean Connery, you understand

⏹️ ▶️ John that there is a context of your previous search. And that is applied like that mental model does not exist as the

⏹️ ▶️ John user model in most people’s brains, they can be trained to figure it out to figure out how do I have to talk to my Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ John to get it to do stuff, which is fine, like again, better than an onscreen keyboard. But what

⏹️ ▶️ John happens initially is people are amazed by the first demo and they just start talking to it and it’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John no, like show me the James Bond movies. Actually, I want something with Julia Roberts and then it shows zero

⏹️ ▶️ John movies because there are no

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco James Bond movies with Julia

⏹️ ▶️ John Roberts because it didn’t understand that you said actually and you were just resetting the whole thing and you know what I mean? But a human

⏹️ ▶️ John like boy, it’s tough. It’s a tough I just want efficient speech to text

⏹️ ▶️ John without having to get up and a little microphone the remote does that so kudos

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right TV OS

⏹️ ▶️ John Actually before we get to that in the realm of remotes I don’t know if you guys saw this but in the same documentation that

⏹️ ▶️ John I pasted in the link to They have game controllers shown we talked about gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John or Apple talked about gaming a little bit and they tried to show games being used with the little accelerometers

⏹️ ▶️ John and your little tiny thing and trying to use like a d-pad on the touchscreen all this terrible stuff and so

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple does have support for game controllers. They have a picture of an actual game control in their documentation It has it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a steel series on the top of it. I don’t know if there’s an existing Game controller for like

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS devices or it’s just a prototype or it’s not coming up for Apple TV But Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John defines the buttons and controls that should be on a game control again This may not be

⏹️ ▶️ John new because I haven’t been kept up with like they might have already defined this for iOS But anyway, this is the definition for

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV, possibly also the old definition for iOS. But this is the first time I’ve seen the documentation.

⏹️ ▶️ John It defines two shoulder pads, two triggers, a D pad, two thumb sticks,

⏹️ ▶️ John a menu button, and four face buttons, A, B, and X, Y, which are in the mirror

⏹️ ▶️ John image arrangement of the SNES, which I think is weird. Why not just go with the exact arrangement

⏹️ ▶️ John of the SNES? Anyway, and then they give you the expected behaviors they want them

⏹️ ▶️ John to do, where they’re you know, B goes back in the menu system, A activates

⏹️ ▶️ John an item, the shoulder buttons, like if you’re using them in an app, like left shoulder navigates

⏹️ ▶️ John left, navigates right, and then expected behavior in a game varies for all these things. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John this shows a little bit of gaming ambitions. It’s like we’re going to define a controller interface and a set of buttons,

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s kind of up to the controller people how they want to arrange the buttons. They can put those fortman’s anywhere they wanted, they can put the

⏹️ ▶️ John thumbsticks anywhere where they want or whatever, but at least they’re in game console style saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John uh, trying to say, anyway, you should have four face buttons. They should be a, B and X and Y and here’s the expected behavior.

⏹️ ▶️ John So if someone gets one game and the, uh, you know, when they’re going through the menu system

⏹️ ▶️ John to go into the next menu in your game, they hit a and to go back, they hit B. But then if another game person does it reverse, it drives you

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy. So I’m happy to see them trying to pin down

⏹️ ▶️ John the user. Every console does this like on PlayStation or whatever x is the button to go in and like a Nintendo B

⏹️ ▶️ John is the button to go back in the menu set like every game console has to do this.

⏹️ ▶️ John Otherwise you will just get very frustrated trying to use a game because your muscle memory,

⏹️ ▶️ John even just navigating the menus or whatever, or finally what’s gonna what’s probably the jump button and what’s probably the fire

⏹️ ▶️ John button right for for genres of games or if I think of the menus because every game has menus

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s the most frustrating if some game reverses the this button goes deeper into the menus

⏹️ ▶️ John this button goes back in the menus so that doesn’t you know there was some rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John about like Apple TV taking on game consoles or whatever people got their

⏹️ ▶️ John fun we’re trying to write those stories beforehand that was not how Apple TV was presented that is not what Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV is never was going to be that that’s fine what it is going to be is

⏹️ ▶️ John a way to play iOS style games from your couch if the game developers can figure out

⏹️ ▶️ John some way to make the game work without touch controls. And that I think is the biggest challenge. And I get back to the remote and that gets

⏹️ ▶️ John back to the controllers and that gets back to universal applications. But you can write a single

⏹️ ▶️ John game and have it work on the iPhone, the iPad and on the Apple TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, if you can figure out some way to control the thing without letting people touch your screen, because on the

⏹️ ▶️ John television they can’t touch the screen or if they do, nothing will actually happen except I’ll get angry

⏹️ ▶️ John so I like I don’t want to delay the the TV OS discussion but like

⏹️ ▶️ John I think gaming is that the part of this and I’m more interested in what do you think about playing games

⏹️ ▶️ John on this they did the multiplayer cross your road demo and people seem excited about that but what do you think the prospects of this

⏹️ ▶️ John as a platform for buying and playing games

⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly I I’m disappointed that Apple doesn’t just have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a controller, like a game controller. You know, I mean, in reality, I’m not surprised

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by any of this, but I am disappointed that, you know, this is basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco relegating games that will actually use controllers to this obscure,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, side business. It was like, it’s like making, there were like 11 or something games

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that could take advantage of both a 32X and a Sega CD at the same time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because nobody had both a 32X and a Sega CD. I think this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is gonna be like that, where the number of people who buy the new Apple TV is gonna be low

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while, because it’s new and it’s more expensive, so it’s gonna be low for a while.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Combine that with the number of people who are gonna have the new Apple TV, who are also going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to buy a game controller for it that is not from Apple. Right now there’s the SteelSeries Nimbus

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, We’ll put the link in the show notes. This is a real controller So, you know there they have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this thing. There’s no price listed It’s you can like pre-order it or something or you know, let me know when it’s ready that kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing It’s probably gonna be like 30 or 40 bucks. I would assume Maybe more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who knows? How many people are actually gonna have these controllers to make it worth game

⏹️ ▶️ Marco developers putting any effort into actually taking advantage of them? And and if you if you’re a game developer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How can you justify writing a game for the Apple TV that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco requires one of these things? You know, like, if a game controller, or if a suitable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough game controller, came with every Apple TV, then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you could assume it’s there and you can write for it. Now as an optional hardware add-on,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s going to get very little support.

⏹️ ▶️ John Control is the biggest challenge with this thing. If you have an iOS game, tons of iOS games are out there, lots of

⏹️ ▶️ John fun that take advantage of touch controls, games that would be harder to play with a traditional controller or easier

⏹️ ▶️ John to play with touch, like Flight Control. Who would want to play Flight Control with a console controller?

⏹️ ▶️ John It would be extremely frustrating, it’s super natural and fun to use your finger. That is an ideal touch

⏹️ ▶️ John game. How do you bring Flight Control to the Apple TV? You absolutely don’t, you just can’t. Like, you could make people

⏹️ ▶️ John swipe around on a little tiny pad, it would be terrible, right? So there’s a different class of games

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to make for the Apple TV. Can you make a game that works

⏹️ ▶️ John on Apple TV and with touch devices? Maybe if it’s a type of game like Flappy Bird where you just have a single

⏹️ ▶️ John input, which is a big red shiny button that you press periodically, right? That probably works fine on all of them because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like tap anywhere on the screen, tap anywhere on the remote, everything’s fine. But once you start getting

⏹️ ▶️ John even a little bit complicated, like even like Alto, it has enough complicated stuff in it that

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know if you can play Alto with that, I suppose you can if you start using the accelerometers, but

⏹️ ▶️ John coming up with one good control stream is hard enough. Coming up with two good control schemes for

⏹️ ▶️ John a single game that someone buys once as a multiple platforms, seems like a tall order. So I have to think

⏹️ ▶️ John that either if you’re lucky enough to have a game that has a dead simple interface, like Crossy Road, it just makes the cut,

⏹️ ▶️ John where it’s like tap and a couple of swipes, fine, you’re good. Then you can get away with it.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you have a more complicated control stream, you can go Apple TV only, but then you have to make sure it’s playable

⏹️ ▶️ John with the remote, which is probably not a great experience. And like Marco said, is anyone gonna make a game that

⏹️ ▶️ John is just terrible to play with the remote, but it’s really meant to be played with a control that no one’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John own? Maybe if it’s shovelware, I guess, maybe it’s like a shovelware port. Like everyone’s like, you know, when

⏹️ ▶️ John is the inevitable port of Thomas was alone? But I think Thomas was alone would actually be kind of okay with

⏹️ ▶️ John a little controller, because it’s just kind of like four directions and a jump. Anyway, the remote, in addition to being what I think

⏹️ ▶️ John is a not very good remote, is a terrible video game controller. It’ll be fine for taps

⏹️ ▶️ John and swipes, but for everything else, I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, this is why, like, I, and, you know, again, none of this is really that big of a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco surprise, but I think going into this, a lot of people were saying,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh, yeah, well, Apple’s gonna make a big deal with games here, and this is gonna be a big game

⏹️ ▶️ Marco story, and, you know, again, unless it’s shipped with a decent gaming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco controller. That was never gonna be the case. And I think we all knew Apple was not gonna do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And ultimately then, I don’t see this being a major game story.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think most games are gonna be better on the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and iPad than they’re gonna be on this TV because there is no standard. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ John most iOS games will. Well, you’re thinking it was iOS games, right? Games that work well with touch interfaces. Obviously,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be better with touch interfaces.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, oh yeah, no, but I’m saying like most games that will actually be made for this, you know?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because I don’t see a lot of games being made for it that will actually, like you know, games that will do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well with a D-pad or with button, like I don’t see that being made for this.

⏹️ ▶️ John So who is going to do that? And I keep saying Shovelware, which is the, I guess the Wii

⏹️ ▶️ John era, popular is that word, of like, say you’re a game maker and you have a game,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’ve already got the game, and it’s available on like 17 different platforms, and it’s not too much effort to hire

⏹️ ▶️ John some contractor to point it to the Apple TV, nah, why not? Like, you have to just do the math. You’re like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the game already exists. It’s already done. It’s already QA’d. We just want you to do a port of it and then just retest

⏹️ ▶️ John it and then send it out. And it’s a popular game and it’s like a popular franchise

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s a well-known name or whatever. Can we make a Apple TV port of it? Even if it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not the best port in the world, you know, they do the math and they say, you know what? Yes, we can. That’s shovelware. There’s a slim

⏹️ ▶️ John chance of that. that doesn’t make anything into a great console. Is there a chance

⏹️ ▶️ John like iOS, that someone can make a game that plays to the unique strengths

⏹️ ▶️ John of the Apple TV? Like, because iOS is like, you know, who’s gonna write games for a phone that stupid, but you know, if they can flight control

⏹️ ▶️ John into those early breakout games, like, oh, you know what? There’s a whole class of games that people haven’t really investigated before that are great

⏹️ ▶️ John with touch controls. And those games would be terrible on a console and they’d be terrible on a PC, but they’re great on your phone

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re great on your iPad. And there’ve been a lot of big success stories related to that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is there an equivalent for the Apple TV? I don’t think so because anything that would be super great on the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV would also be super great on any game console and would probably also be super

⏹️ ▶️ John great on iOS. Like I don’t I don’t know if there’s a if there’s a place for games that

⏹️ ▶️ John are uniquely good on the Apple TV that in ways that there

⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t be good on either iOS devices or consoles or PCs. So I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s going to be a tough road for that type of game for Apple TV?

⏹️ ▶️ John The open question I think I have is, will iOS games, which

⏹️ ▶️ John you know are super popular, and iOS, the breakout iOS games make a lot of money, and one of the biggest

⏹️ ▶️ John selling categories of software for, in the App Store, are games.

⏹️ ▶️ John Will that translate to Apple TV? Will enough of those games be portable

⏹️ ▶️ John enough to the Apple TV and be ported to the Apple TV to make Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ John as successful a game platform as phones and iPads are. And I think there’s a chance

⏹️ ▶️ John of that, maybe not as successful, but like, you know, proportion wise, obviously they’ll sell far fewer Apple TVs

⏹️ ▶️ John than they’ll ever sell iPhones, right? But proportion wise, will most people

⏹️ ▶️ John who get an Apple TV buy and download a couple of one or $2 games? I kind of think

⏹️ ▶️ John they will. And like Crossy Road was the perfect game to demo because that’ll be fine on the TV

⏹️ ▶️ John and multiplayer player will be fun. I still think there’s a barrier of, based

⏹️ ▶️ John on my kids and other people I’ve seen, there’s a barrier to actually turning on the TV to do this. Like it seems like more of a ceremony

⏹️ ▶️ John than just taking out your iPad or your iPod Touch or your phone and tapping out a few games across the road

⏹️ ▶️ John to actually go to the room with the TV and turn it on and sit down and turn on the Apple TV and do a lot of the

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. Maybe too much of a barrier to make that a thing that happens, but

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess we’ll see. We haven’t had another game platform like this to be

⏹️ ▶️ John as successful as this is probably going to be, except for maybe the Amazon Fire TV. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know, are there games for the Fire TV? Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, I have them. They even sell a game controller for, I think, 30 bucks. That doesn’t come

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with it. One of the games is Crossy Road.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m assuming Apple’s gonna sell more of these than Fire TVs, but I don’t know. Do we not know how many Fire TVs sell because there’s another

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon thing where they don’t tell you?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all, what you just said, I think, is a very, very important factor of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is, I always say, don’t bet against the smartphone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is going against the smartphone in that most of the games that will be decent and compelling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the Apple TV will be iPhone and iPad games. And so you’re asking people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to play them on a TV instead of playing them on an iOS device, which they probably also have.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That I think is… I think it’s going to be very few games

⏹️ ▶️ Marco played on very few occasions where that’s going to really be worth doing for most people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Secondly, so you know, so the games, I mean, you know, usually I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s actually gonna be worse on the Apple TV because you don’t have the touch screen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and most people aren’t gonna have a game controller. So you have, it’s actually worse control

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a larger but crappier display that you can’t touch that is gonna, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s gonna be… It

⏹️ ▶️ John could be more communal, that’s why I think multiplayer Crossy Road, because Is doing multiplayer cross the road when people are gathering around

⏹️ ▶️ John a single iPad and both fingers are stabbing at the screen? And I even think that little,

⏹️ ▶️ John I

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ John any game that has a spectator aspect of it or a communal aspect of it, like maybe people who make game

⏹️ ▶️ John shows and party games for it, then I guess you get into the thing of like, can I buy more of these remotes or do

⏹️ ▶️ John I have to use my phone or my iPod touch and all those other factors? I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John There is a market for a couple of breakout hits for this, but I don’t think any of them are going to break out

⏹️ ▶️ John in the same way that iOS games did.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right, and so then to close this out for now I guess, do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you think this will sell well? So if you think about it, this is priced at $149 and $199

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for 32 and 64 gigs and it is, as Casey mentioned earlier,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty comical that this for $150 has more memory in it than the new iPhones for way more money.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But we’ll fight that fight another day, I think. And today also.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, you look at the Amazon Fire TV, that’s what, $100 for the good one? Do we even know?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it’s about $100, maybe $150 for the good Fire TV. Again, no game controller included. You gotta pay $30 more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whatever. I don’t think that the market for these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco set-top boxes is in an upwards price climb here. I think what we’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over the last couple of years is these little like cheap $40 stick versions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the boxes are selling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John very well. The size of the remote. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or smaller. Yeah, yeah. These things just plug into an HDMI port and then they never show you the little USB cable it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco needs for power. Those are selling very well, it seems. Whenever I talk

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to people who are buying TV boxes, they always talk about those things. It seems like people really love those things.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re very cheap, they’re basic, but they’re fine for stuff like Netflix. and because you know that the kind of stuff that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people are actually using these boxes for so far okay and Plex and yeah and Plex sure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You and your Plex. I love me some Plex. You’ll fight the Plex fight all right So so you have that whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of the market where I don’t see them wanting to suddenly spend $150 on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this on something to solve that kind of need so I think the low end is and and like the common

⏹️ ▶️ Marco case of Watching Netflix and stuff and Plex is gonna be solved perfectly well by everything else. That’s not this box

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think looking at Amazon is a worthy example here. Do you think Amazon actually sells

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a good number of the expensive Fire TV box? The good one that has a fast CPU and can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco run apps and games? The one that I bought, which is, you know, it’s fine. It’s not amazing, but it’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is very fast. It does have some games that I played once and never again because they’re terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this is gonna be a slow climb up the sales ranks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the Apple TV because it is coming into a very cheap market with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a relatively expensive offering compared to the other things. And again, they’ve done this before.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple has done this before. However, in this case, what makes it so much better,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think is gonna be this whole app story that they’re betting big on,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I’m not sure that’s gonna actually play out. It doesn’t seem like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I’m sure you know people like us You know most of us are probably gonna buy something like this. We’ll talk about on our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcasts and everything, but do you see like Regular people wanting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this you know not not just a TV connected smart box that can play Netflix But wanting this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one and being willing to spend this amount of money for it

⏹️ ▶️ John Tim said it on the thing the future of TV is apps like the other shoe hasn’t dropped for this yet And there’s lots of

⏹️ ▶️ John stories leading up to this announcement to talk about this like this is the box This is the hardware and they showed the software

⏹️ ▶️ John and the cross-service search and all sorts of things that other boxes have as well the other shoe is

⏹️ ▶️ John Hey Apple Is there something I can pay for a monthly subscription to get basically TV without going through a cable

⏹️ ▶️ John company and the answer right now? Is no, but the rumors have been for years and years That’s what Apple’s trying to provide

⏹️ ▶️ John to you They’re going to try to find a way where you can pay some monthly Amount of money that is less

⏹️ ▶️ John than your current cable bill and you can get quote-unquote TV In addition to Netflix and Hulu and whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John else you subscribe to and all the other services and Apple things and blah blah blah but also TV you’ll be able to watch your

⏹️ ▶️ John your baseball games on the MLB app and your NFL games the NFL app and you’ll be able to see local news

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’ll be able to see all the channels that you want to see and and HBO and Showtime and ESPN and

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple doesn’t have that yet. Like they we keep hearing that they’re trying to work work on it That is the other

⏹️ ▶️ John shoe for this. This is the hardware is ready for it That will make this a way more compelling thing because like Marco was saying, you know

⏹️ ▶️ John If you just want something to stream Netflix, every TV does that now. If you have an old TV, you can buy one of these boxes or one of these

⏹️ ▶️ John sticks, or you can search across Amazon. And how many people actually subscribe to Amazon, Hulu, and Netflix who can

⏹️ ▶️ John search across it? Most people don’t. They just subscribe to one of them. Hopefully this is

⏹️ ▶️ John a better box than those little sticks or whatever, but that just, you know, it’s just high-end customers. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, I just want something better. And they’re like, oh, well, the Chromecast is fine. It lets me watch my stuff. But this is not

⏹️ ▶️ John a fully fledged customer solution yet. So we’re still just waiting for Apple to get its deals worked

⏹️ ▶️ John out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. And a lot of the regular people that I know that have one of these sort of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple TV boxes or equivalent, a lot of them are swearing by Chromecast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That works for them. It’s all they need. To go back just very quickly, I think that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t really find anything that compelling about this other than that it’s a new Apple toy.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think for, for to really get popular, either it needs to replace

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cable, like you were just saying, John, or depending on maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one of a couple of different things, if, if say, for example, that MLB

⏹️ ▶️ Casey app existed, but for the NFL, that would be a big darn deal. So if,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if there was some sort of exclusive Sunday ticket style, which is exclusive to DirecTV,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if there was a way that I could buy an Apple TV and then pay a little extra to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey basically Sunday ticket in an app that didn’t stink, you know, in an app written by the MLB’s media arm

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or whatever it is, I would go berserk for that. I would love it. And if it’s not the NFL, if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rolling your eyes about another American talking about stupid American football, then fine, soccer or fine,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey F1. And there might be F1, some fancy F1 app on this thing. Who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey having something hugely popular, and I’m concentrating on sports, but isn’t exclusively sports, but having

⏹️ ▶️ Casey something like that, I think would really drive a lot of adoption. But without

⏹️ ▶️ Casey either the TV service being replaced by the Apple TV or something that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I care, or you care really, really strongly about being on the Apple TV and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a really, really great experience like that MLB app looked like, I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ Casey huge adoption, not yet anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, if you’re just augmenting your existing TV, or you’re like a weirdo cord cutter who thinks they can get along

⏹️ ▶️ John without quote unquote real TV,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey then

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey still in the small category.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re never going to get the mass market until you can fully replace TV for those people.

⏹️ ▶️ John And once you can get, like you said, people who are really into a particular sport, of course they want the thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they’re probably going to get that in addition to their other thing, right? And all the exclusive deals are a problem there. That is still kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of like an enthusiast market. to get to the mass market, you have to say, this can be how

⏹️ ▶️ John you watch TV. And you have to say, it covers your

⏹️ ▶️ John television watching needs like the old boring way, right? And then once you’ve got them on board,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can say, oh, and by the way, the future of TV is apps. And if you’re really interested in one particular thing, if you’re really interested in knitting,

⏹️ ▶️ John or you’re really interested in F1, or whatever the thing you’re really interested in, by the way, there’s an app for that kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of television or movies or videos or whatever. And the app does more than just let you hit play and watch

⏹️ ▶️ John a movie, which again, that’s the bar that current Apple TV is not crossing, right? But we’re imagining

⏹️ ▶️ John here that these apps are all great and this product is good. The apps can really add to areas of interest. And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John everybody who subscribes to television in some way has some area of interest that potentially someone could

⏹️ ▶️ John make an app for that would make them interested in that experience. It’s another chicken egg thing where

⏹️ ▶️ John no one’s going to make those apps. If no one buys the box, no one’s going to buy the box if it can’t replace their TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this can’t replace their TV because Apple hasn’t done the deals and blah blah blah so really it’s still just an augmenters box

⏹️ ▶️ John and what we’re all hoping is that this is a better augmenters box than the existing crappy Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John TV or any of the other things but for regular people like I said they’re just like well Chromecast can watch YouTube and it can

⏹️ ▶️ John watch Netflix and it’s fine and like I said every single modern TV can all do Netflix already and probably Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ John video like why do I need a box my television does that natively and it probably does it fine even though it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John really slow and hinky and takes a long time to launch you’re never going to convince them that this is

⏹️ ▶️ John better because it launches fast and smoothly. Really, for this to work, like Tim said, the future

⏹️ ▶️ John TV really needs to be apps. And you can start with the early adopters and the enthusiasts. You can start with the people

⏹️ ▶️ John who like I found this kind of hilarious, but also I totally understood it like the people who really

⏹️ ▶️ John do want to watch two baseball games at once. I understand those people. I know they’re out there. How can you watch

⏹️ ▶️ John two base? It’s a thing that happens. I’ve seen it happen. I mean, I got my kids.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think I got a picture this most recently my son was sitting on the couch

⏹️ ▶️ John watching air quotes television uh playing his nintendo ds

⏹️ ▶️ John with a youtube movie playing on his ipad with the headphone from his ipad going into his ear

⏹️ ▶️ John and i was like can i turn the tv off he’s like no i’m watching that i’m like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you’re watching

⏹️ ▶️ John it you’re playing pokemon on your ds and you’re also watching youtube video but you’re really just listening to it.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, no, it wasn’t even YouTube video. He was playing music and there was a video playing just

⏹️ ▶️ John I Don’t anyway, he would love to watch Two baseball games at once. That’s nothing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, hey Every every football every college football season at one point or another there’ll be enough games

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on simultaneously that I will typically have two televisions and one or two

⏹️ ▶️ Casey computers all in my family room so I can Bounce my eyes between all the different games all at once

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Also, I can hear Marco rolling his eyes

⏹️ ▶️ John Baseball nothing happens for such a long time That is really not you can just like I’ll pay attention to this

⏹️ ▶️ John game And I’ll pay attention to that game and you didn’t miss anything You just Mitch likes a couple of butt scratches over there So you

⏹️ ▶️ John have time to time slice it but in a fast pace like can you watch two basketball games at the same time?

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think you can

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I’m sure people I’m sure people can All right Let’s talk about TV OS because we still have some iPhone to talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the rate we’re going we’re gonna be longer than the damn Goodfellas podcast. There’s a TV JS framework.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have not looked into any of this. So seeing this in the show notes is the first news I had.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s a way for you to do if you don’t want to write like a full fledged app, like say you’re someone who’s got a bunch

⏹️ ▶️ John of video, like you are the knitting channel, right? And you I got a bunch of knitting videos, and I’ve got them organized

⏹️ ▶️ John into categories. And I’ve got like shows and I’ve, you know, got tutorials and stuff. And I want to I want

⏹️ ▶️ John to be on Apple TV, I want people to be able to launch it. But I don’t know how to write an app. And I don’t know how to run a higher iOS developers. And really, all

⏹️ ▶️ John it is, is just a a bunch of categorized bins of video that you can start playing, right? How can I get

⏹️ ▶️ John that up and running as fast as possible? I don’t know much about this because I’ve just looked at the pages briefly, but it seems like

⏹️ ▶️ John they have a way to do that with web technologies with HTML5 video and JavaScript to slap something

⏹️ ▶️ John together with web style technologies to give you an application that has a bunch of thumbnails of video

⏹️ ▶️ John with player controls. I mean, we’ve all seen this. We’ve all seen HTML5 video players. YouTube is HTML5

⏹️ ▶️ John video player at this point where you can have a kind of a customized UI and it plays video just fine you can

⏹️ ▶️ John sort through them and you just make essentially web pages and iframes and all sorts of other things you’re expected

⏹️ ▶️ John to do with a simple JavaScript API and I think it’s a good way to you know to make the

⏹️ ▶️ John barrier to entry for people who have a bunch of video and want to make it available in an app on the

⏹️ ▶️ John Apple TV quickly and easily seems like a reasonably good idea I hope it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible because we’ve all seen terrible HTML 5 video players and longed for like actual native

⏹️ ▶️ John controls for video. But I’m guessing that because the problem domain is

⏹️ ▶️ John small, bunch of thumbnails of videos that you play, I think it should

⏹️ ▶️ John probably be fine. But anyway, this is after reading like three sentences on the web pages. If I’m entirely

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong about what TVJS and TVML kit are, I’m sure we’ll find out in the follow

⏹️ ▶️ John up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, and tell us about local storage.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh yeah, there’s the other snippets. I just pulled out of that thing. There is no persistent local storage for apps on Apple TV.

⏹️ ▶️ John This means that every app developed for the new Apple TV must be able to store data in iCloud. That is a direct quote from Apple’s

⏹️ ▶️ John documentation. No persistent local storage. So it’s great that they have 32 and 64 gig models. If

⏹️ ▶️ John you write an app, you can’t use any of that. I mean, you can, incidentally, in the course of running, but

⏹️ ▶️ John there is no persistent local storage. Say you’ve got a bunch of files and you wanna download them and store them

⏹️ ▶️ John on the Apple TV. You can’t. You can put them in

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco iCloud. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no, no, no, wait. you can download them, but it’s all considered temporary purgeable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco files so that you can download them. Yeah, you can download them. But next time you launch, they might

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be gone.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right? It’s non persistent. It’s like, yeah, it’s like, you know, it’s going to download stuff, it’s going to put it

⏹️ ▶️ John on the storage. But that’s not you know, you can’t have any guarantee that it’s going to be there next time you run like you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John store stuff there. So it is just there temporarily. And presumably,

⏹️ ▶️ John if something more important having to do with actual video watching comes along it will wipe all your crap and it will be gone the next time you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John launched. So, like, you can’t save documents there, for example. So if you’re thinking of making an Apple TV app

⏹️ ▶️ John that, I don’t know, it’s like a drawing program that lets you draw with a magic wand with the remote, you can’t save

⏹️ ▶️ John the user’s drawings on the Apple TV because next time you launch they could all be gone. You must use iCloud.

⏹️ ▶️ John Which shows that I guess they need all, I mean I guess they need a lot of storage for those high definition screensavers, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Like they can put stuff on there permanently, but your apps can’t. And the second thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John speaking of storage constraints, the maximum size of an Apple TV app, as in the size of the app bundle itself, like that you’ve

⏹️ ▶️ John downloaded from the store, is 200 megabytes. Anything beyond this size needs to be packaged and loaded using on-demand

⏹️ ▶️ John resources. We talked about it at WWDC shows about app thinning, which will help make your app

⏹️ ▶️ John smaller, and on-demand resources, where you don’t ship the resources with the app, it downloads them on-demand.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not sure how the on-demand resources, I didn’t get any read into this, the on-demand resources in iOS, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John you get your app from the app store small and when it needs stuff it downloads it but then it keeps it right do you know

⏹️ ▶️ John if on-demand resources are purgeable Margo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I don’t know I haven’t looked I would guess they probably are but either way it sounds like they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably are for the Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to my recollection they were on any platform

⏹️ ▶️ John like yeah you download it on demand but again the same deal like maybe something will come through and clean them up so

⏹️ ▶️ John the next time you launch you’ll need to download them on demand again but anyway this is pretty constraining which means no

⏹️ ▶️ John one like you’re not gonna have the equivalent of single app remember the single app ebooks on the early days of iOS where it’s like a single

⏹️ ▶️ John book would be an app for 99 cents no one is going to be able to sell Apple TV

⏹️ ▶️ John apps that are like three hours of video you just download it and it’s like you know like no

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not gonna happen because it’s got to be 200 megs and they’ll probably reject you if you tried to do that anyway for other

⏹️ ▶️ John reasons yeah so and for games that basically means

⏹️ ▶️ John all that on-demand stuff that they showed you that’s like mandatory for games unless you have something like crossy

⏹️ ▶️ John road I I don’t even think Crossy Roads probably fixed under 200 megs. I don’t know, maybe it does. It’s no textures in it. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just flat shaded, I think. But yeah, if you’re thinking of making a game,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, if you had any illusions, like all those articles that are like, Apple TV is going up against PlayStation and Xbox, mm-hmm,

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, with no local storage and a 200 meg limit thing, and no, forget it. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John those are pretty tight. And it makes me wonder what they think they need all that storage

⏹️ ▶️ John for. I mean, the easy answer is to spool up HD video, I guess, but I’m not complaining.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I love the fact that the storage is generous, but to go from, what is the Apple TV 3? It’s like eight gigs or

⏹️ ▶️ John something crazy like that. And this is not 4K video. This is the same resolution. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John room for way more video to stay on the device, which I applaud, but if you’re an app developer, boy, this

⏹️ ▶️ John seems pretty harsh. They do not want you using any of that flash storage on this device permanently.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and I mean, and you know, even just as a customer trying to buy this device, they offer it in two capacities,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 32 for 150 and 64 for 200. And how do you, as a customer,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, I mean, obviously they’re gonna figure out some BS way for the employees to explain it in the stores and half

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the employees are gonna mess up the explanation and do it their other way. It’s, anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s like the way they try to explain RAM on the computers in the stores. Oh boy. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how as a customer are you supposed to know which one to buy because it’s, you know, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actual benefit is most likely to just be that, well, when you hit a purge request, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of sucks. It’s like when you’re in Safari and your page gets kicked out of memory on iOS and you gotta like reload

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the page the next time you go back, where if you have a whole bunch of really big apps and games on your new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple TV, and you go to one you haven’t used for a while, and its data has been purged

⏹️ ▶️ Marco since you last used it, then that’s gonna have to re-download stuff and you’re gonna have to wait a second while I redownload

⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff. So getting the bigger one would make that happen less often,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or possibly never for you, depending on how many things you have on there. So that is the reason to buy the bigger one. How

⏹️ ▶️ Marco many people are gonna know that though?

⏹️ ▶️ John They might also say, speaking of things that Apple Store employees would say, oh, you can download more apps, which is strictly

⏹️ ▶️ John true, but you know how many 200 meg apps

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you would

⏹️ ▶️ John have to download to make a dent in the extra 32 gigs of memory you get? Like do that math.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a lot.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So what they’re probably gonna say is, If you’re gonna be playing games on it, you should get the big one. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably how they’re gonna message

⏹️ ▶️ John you. Yeah, because you can download one gig levels, I guess, if you’re something with lots of textures.

⏹️ ▶️ John You could get a 200 meg game that slowly on-demand loads a huge number of levels, and if you play that game a lot,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’ll be nice that it doesn’t have to re-download it. But again, how many, well, I guess you could fill

⏹️ ▶️ John it with games, I guess, I’m trying to think, what is it? Is it video or on-demand resources?

⏹️ ▶️ John Again, they’re purgeable, blah, blah, blah, or whatever, but are there enough big games that you’re gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John be annoyed that like if I play this game and then I play that game and I go back to the previous

⏹️ ▶️ John game, one of the levels gets purged? Maybe, I don’t know. I think this

⏹️ ▶️ John thing, based on what we know now about what the storage is gonna be used for, I think the 32 is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John big enough for most people and it’s great that I can say that about the smallest capacity Apple device in any

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco product category.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. And it all depends really on how much games actually take off on this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing. And like that, because, you know, as we said earlier, like there’s so many hurdles for game developers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to jump through to get on here. Now one of the additional hurdles is you’re going to have to adopt this app thinning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco model and this download on demand resources stuff. So like, again, it’s adding more work to what this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is. I think it’s going to be a tough sell for a lot of game developers, especially when the install

⏹️ ▶️ Marco base is starting at zero. But if this all comes together, but that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a big if. But if this all comes together to the point where they sell enough of these things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that apps are compelling enough and good enough and useful enough on them that there can be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a vibrant app market. And that’s a huge if. But if that happens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and there is a vibrant app market that forms in those conditions then this will be really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool. Because I do like the idea of TV becoming appified.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the way Tim presented it on like, you know, this is why we are going this way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, you know, you can look at it partly and say, well, that’s BS because they couldn’t make content deals in time. But I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they honestly do believe that, you know, I think that really is where they think this should go,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where they think it is going.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s right. Well, the content deals would be the same thing, though, wouldn’t they? Like content deals would

⏹️ ▶️ John just be more apps, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Presumably, yeah. You know, because it seems like, I mean, who knows what they’re what they’re planning with some kind of TV plan or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether it’s just getting a bunch of apps on here. Regardless, they now have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the groundwork laid for it to go either way. So they have the most options open.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think if you look at how people watch TV on iPhones and iPads, it is the app model.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple does not sell a TV package for your iPad, even though lots of people watch TV shows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on iPads. Instead, if you want to watch TV shows on your iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you go download the apps for those shows or Yalo Netflix or whatever. So that’s going to be good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This also gives them, hopefully if Amazon makes an app for Amazon Video, then this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gives them a way to get Amazon Video on the Apple TV without whatever competitive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco sucking up of their pride they couldn’t do on the previous Apple TV, whatever that was. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this is a great model if it works. But there are these big challenges to getting it to work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I do have doubts. I think if it does work, it might be a very slow launch. Just because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, starting from zero customer base, and I think the story

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to customers of why they should spend $150 on this new box for their TV is…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s not terrible, but it’s not like this gotta-have thing that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to go buy this immediately. I don’t think a lot of people are going to feel that want,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that desire, that lust to go get this right now.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, don’t worry, because by next summer, Apple TV will be built into 50% of the television sold in the United States.

⏹️ ▶️ John Remember that one? Was it 50% or was it 100? I don’t remember.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John Eric Schmidt. Yeah. Speaking of apps, like television as apps, the current

⏹️ ▶️ John version of that actually has a lot of crappy sides to it, like the crappy side

⏹️ ▶️ John of apps. When I was on vacation, I watched Mr. Robot and Humans, and

⏹️ ▶️ John I think, what is it? Mr. Robot is on USA and Humans is on AMC. an AMC app for iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John and there’s a USA app. Right now of course there’s also the website so I think maybe that was the first thing I tried I went to the website

⏹️ ▶️ John on my iPad and it’s got HTML 5 video and it kind of plays but it was it

⏹️ ▶️ John would like start playing but then sometimes like it would go to the commercial break and not resume the show and like oh I should get

⏹️ ▶️ John the app that’ll be better and it wasn’t. The apps were look like they were

⏹️ ▶️ John kind of cruddy web views inside there and like when I was trying to watch humans very often first First of all,

⏹️ ▶️ John it was like all the things I’ve described before where you can’t scrub from one place to the other. So, I would start watching

⏹️ ▶️ John the show and if I closed the iPad or had to come back to it later, it wouldn’t pick up where I left

⏹️ ▶️ John off. In the app, it would not pick up where I left off. And it would start at the beginning again. And so I’d have to try to move

⏹️ ▶️ John the scrubber to the part where I went, but if I scrubbed past one of the little dots that indicated a mandatory commercial break,

⏹️ ▶️ John it would move the scrubber back and replay that same ad. And then sometimes when I got done with the ad, it would automatically

⏹️ ▶️ John jump back to the beginning. I believe I spent over the course of a day four hours

⏹️ ▶️ John on and off Trying to get back to the point where I was watching the program like I try every once in a while

⏹️ ▶️ John I would let it spin. I would let it go through a thing Sometimes I just let it play to try to get up to the point Four hours, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John I spent on and off trying to get to the scene where I left off in like a 45-minute television show

⏹️ ▶️ John So I think the app model like hey, we’ll make we’ll make the I forget this was the AMC or the USA

⏹️ ▶️ John app I’m sorry for whichever network I am him throwing under the bus that

⏹️ ▶️ John actually didn’t have a problem. They were both pretty crappy, honestly, but the one I spent a really long time with was like the mandatory commercials

⏹️ ▶️ John and not letting me pick up where I left off. That’s just unforgivable. And that was an app that was not a web

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. That was an app. So if the future TV is apps, God, I hope they’re better apps than these because these these

⏹️ ▶️ John wraps, these wraps made by big television networks with a lot of money with successful shows and the

⏹️ ▶️ John shows are good, but the apps were terrible and that that is not acceptable. No one is going to

⏹️ ▶️ John let you replace their TV with something like this, right? Like just no one, no one will accept that like TV has to be

⏹️ ▶️ John TV, I have to turn it on and has to play and has to be it. And then better TV is like TiVo. And that’s for like

⏹️ ▶️ John a you know, a small category of weirdos who want to spend a lot of money in this box. But But bottom line is it’s got to play.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you try to play and it doesn’t play, that’s not TV throw this thing away. So I really

⏹️ ▶️ John hope that whatever Apple’s eventual content is, that’s what we’re talking about, like, is the content deal just more apps? Or

⏹️ ▶️ John is it some different thing that Apple works on that? That’s Apple provide some kind of quality guarantee would they

⏹️ ▶️ John not let the AMC or USA apps ship as part of their Apple television

⏹️ ▶️ John subscription deal because they’re just not good enough quality they shouldn’t because they’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah my wait until next year to see if Eddie can sling those deals

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one more short button off he’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey pull it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey off please no please not see

⏹️ ▶️ John his belly buttons in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know you’re right like as we move towards this era of everything has its own app and every network has its own app. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, we see the same thing happening in podcasts, which kind of scares me, not only from the future of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my app perspective, but also as a listener. Because it does suck to have to go to different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco publishers’ apps to watch different shows, and then the apps are of very different quality.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So not only can you not use one good app to watch everything,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but you have to go to all these different crappy apps to watch everything. And that does suck in a lot of ways. However,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think looking at where we are, looking at how iOS has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco developed in this way with TV content and movie content, how iOS has developed in this way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the situation the Apple TV has been in, obviously Apple has tried very hard to get some kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of normalized deal thing going, and we don’t know if they’ve succeeded. So far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like they haven’t. But either way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think this is the best solution that we have given the modern reality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the content producers and the content landscape. Who knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple could prove this wrong in six months and release such a plan where everything’s standardized and you just pay them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it seems like this is probably the best they could do, given

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the reality of the market.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, all right, so we have iPhones to cover but this is a natural stopping

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point and

St. Jude’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We do not have a fourth sponsor in the strictest sense for this episode But I thought or

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we thought it would be a good idea to take a quick moment and just call attention to a friend of the show Stephen Hackett

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is trying to raise some money for st. Jude’s Children’s Hospital and he has a long

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Well fortunate but unfortunate history of st. Jude’s his eldest son Josiah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has been diagnosed with cancer And he has had a long

⏹️ ▶️ Casey struggle with it Steven and his family

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has probably received millions of dollars worth of medical care for free because of donations to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey St. Jude. Steven didn’t ask us to do this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We just thought it was the right thing to do. So if you’ve made it this far and have a couple of bucks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to spare, we’ll put a link in the show notes in the sponsor section for where you can go to donate a little

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bit of money. I think it would mean a lot to us and it would mean a lot to Steven and it would mean a lot to children really all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey over the world because St. Jude’s does accept patients from all over.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It would mean a lot to all of those people if you could, you know, scrape together a couple bucks and send it their way. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you’re feeling kind this September and have any money

⏹️ ▶️ Casey left over from any purchases you might be making these days, please think of throwing a few bucks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey their way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s really, it’s a fantastic organization. I mean, St. Jude, like what they do, I’m fortunate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that my family has not needed this, but I I’m so, so glad this exists in case we ever

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do, and for all the people who do. This is the kind of thing, like, you want a place like this to exist.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It really does help society in such a big way, and they just, you know, they just do such great work there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the fact that, you know, it’s hard enough if you need

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go to a child cancer hospital. That’s never a good thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the fact that, you know, imagine if people had to pay for this, And if they had to then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco deny care because somebody couldn’t afford it or whatever, I mean, that’s just horrifying. So the work they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do is amazing. Go support St. Jude. Donate to St. Jude. It’s fantastic.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s just like an example of the most important blanket rule. You think, well, they’re all kind of the same,

⏹️ ▶️ John different doctors, baby should go here. The most important thing is the blanket rule

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t matter if you have enough money. Just take that off the table. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John that is the ultimate. You just can’t think about it. or like that was the most, I think it’s the most important

⏹️ ▶️ John rule they defined this, does not matter how much money you have, period. Everything else, you’re gonna have plenty

⏹️ ▶️ John to worry about, that’s one of the things you don’t have to worry about. And that one rule I think defines this entire place

⏹️ ▶️ John as like a place of safety and a good place. And

⏹️ ▶️ John strangely enough, that type of thing makes me want to give money, right? Knowing that if

⏹️ ▶️ John I give money, it’s going to go to help pay for kids to get

⏹️ ▶️ John better, right? that kids are going to be accepted here, period. How can they do that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Because people give them money. So you have to give them money so they can do this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly, and September is National Childhood Cancer Awareness Month, which is why Stephen’s doing all this fundraising.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco He does it every September, and this is a really great cause. So check it out. We’ll put the link in the show notes,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or just go to, and you can find the link there.

iPhones 6S

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So iPhone 6S and if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re one of those crazy kids in the plus club, iPhone 6S Plus. A9,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Taptic Engine, 3D Touch, better camera, which for a fleeting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey moment I was very scared that the better camera had more megapixels than my fancy pants Micro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Four Thirds camera. It does not. I still have probably one more year before that’s the case.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s a lot more to a camera than just how many megapixels it is, but I did get very scared Just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a moment there. Anyway This looks pretty good to me. It looks more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey feature-packed than I think most S years have been

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It also has a new version of touch ID which supposedly is a lot faster

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m really interested to play with the 3d touch. I think that it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey interesting. I have mixed feelings about it I think I’m going to love it and it certainly is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very clever and different. But it also adds another

⏹️ ▶️ Casey layer to an operating system and a piece of hardware that I think

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has been getting considerably more complex over the years. If you think about, I joined

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the iPhone, or I got my first iPhone when it was a 3GS.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that by comparison was unbelievably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey simple. I think we were on like iOS 3 at that point, if memory serves. I’m probably wrong about that. But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was so simple by comparison to what we have today. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s interesting to me that we are getting closer and closer with all these

⏹️ ▶️ Casey options and gestures, gestures from the bottom, gestures from the left, gestures from the right, gestures from the top.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And now we have, well, did you touch or did you really touch or did you really touch and hold?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All of these different interaction mechanisms and paradigms, I’m not saying they’re a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey bad thing. I’m not saying that this isn’t the march of progress. I’m not saying this isn’t good in the grand scheme of things.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know, I’ve just had this weird feeling all day long after seeing the keynote that things are getting more and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey more complex. And this device that was kind of like this haven

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of cleanliness and simplicity just doesn’t seem so simple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey anymore. Do you guys feel the same way? Like Marco, do you feel like this is getting more and more complex

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or am I being crazy here?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I’ve actually felt that way for a while about many of Apple’s products. I mean, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just the other day, so I’ve had an Apple Watch since day one. I discovered about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco three days ago that you can swipe down to dismiss a notification

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John than just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco scrolling to the dismiss button and trying to tap it in a way that isn’t interpreted as a scroll. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the fact that I’ve had a watch all this time and I follow this stuff so closely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I didn’t know that until recently, like just shows you like just like there’s so much hidden stuff, hidden

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shortcuts, hidden features.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that shows they’re doing a good job, don’t you? Because the trick is to

⏹️ ▶️ John add the deep functionality without making it more complicated

⏹️ ▶️ John for people who don’t know or care about it. So the fact that you could have a watch for a real long time and not know that shows

⏹️ ▶️ John that A, you didn’t need to know that to dismiss notifications, and B,

⏹️ ▶️ John not knowing that it was there did not interfere with, like it didn’t weigh

⏹️ ▶️ John on your mind, you didn’t have a button that was in your face, you weren’t like, I mean maybe you accidentally triggered like

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the whole trick with all these things like am I accidentally triggering and I think some of the stuff on iOS lurches into

⏹️ ▶️ John that area like the notification center I’ve seen people accidentally bring that down go what the heck is

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that

⏹️ ▶️ John right or double tapping the home button they don’t know what that is because they’ve never seen it before and they just did it by accident. That’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John you don’t want to happen. But for the most part Apple has been pretty good job of

⏹️ ▶️ John having all that advanced stuff there. But if you don’t know about it and don’t want to deal with it, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not in your face. And I think a lot of the iOS seven simplification of getting controls out and trying to make things look

⏹️ ▶️ John simpler while at the same time hiding much more functionality than underneath the little buttons it’s walking kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of a fine line. And I’ll have to try this 3D touch thing to see what side of the line it goes on but

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems like the same type of thing. If you don’t know that it’s there maybe it won’t bother

⏹️ ▶️ John you but when they showed those demos I just had to think that like there’s at least two or

⏹️ ▶️ John three things that I think once people figure out that it’s there and it becomes part of their vocabulary and

⏹️ ▶️ John I I think it’s perfectly within the realm of everybody to have this become part of the vocabulary. Whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s called, long pressing, force touching, or whatever, on an icon on your home screen, and

⏹️ ▶️ John picking one of the three common things. Like, even just to take a selfie, which I showed like 17 times.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s a good feature that people will use. It’s better than launching the app. It

⏹️ ▶️ John is not so complicated that I think people can’t do it. And once somebody does it once, the phone’s gonna feel

⏹️ ▶️ John broken if you can’t do that on. They’re gonna, if you take someone, Take a teenager with a phone

⏹️ ▶️ John with iOS nine, who’s used to like two of those features on two apps, that’s it, just two apps in their home screen that they

⏹️ ▶️ John use that thing all the time and put them back to iOS nine, they’d be like, my phone is broken, throw this junk away.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right? And that alone, like the doomsday scenario that Margo’s always like, what, what about

⏹️ ▶️ John every app, you got a long press and hard press and a million things are sprouting out and you didn’t mean it like you don’t want that to

⏹️ ▶️ John happen. But I think the additional functionality provided by this, and I’m hoping it is better than

⏹️ ▶️ John long pressing would be because I hate long pressing. I think it’s worth it. I think we’re ready

⏹️ ▶️ John for the next step in the interface. And this functionality, I think you can

⏹️ ▶️ John put in applications in the right way to provide shortcuts and extra functionality for people

⏹️ ▶️ John who want them without getting in the way of people who don’t. A lot of the stuff they demoed is

⏹️ ▶️ John already kind of pushing against the line like the whole thing of pressing hard and the little Harry Potter photos where they start moving.

⏹️ ▶️ John Is that really a great use of force press or we’d rather just have a button for that. Hmm. I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Harry Potter should smile more.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco There was a Adobe

⏹️ ▶️ John demo, not Apple, but then again, Apple vets everything that’s in these things. So we’ll put them with the blame

⏹️ ▶️ John for it as well. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John the 3d touch thing, I’m mostly optimistic about

⏹️ ▶️ John it and I was, I found a lot of their demos very convincing and a lot of their demos very, very silly.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I guess we’ll just have to try it ourselves and see like here the test for it if you pretend that

⏹️ ▶️ John this feature doesn’t exist does it ever bother you and I’m hoping the answer is no like you know we could get

⏹️ ▶️ John all get these phones start using an iOS 9 I’m not getting this phone probably but anyway Marco will get it probably Casey

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco okay poor Casey

⏹️ ▶️ John in that yearly plan I felt for Casey when they put that thing out like no Aaron was like no

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway if you pretend 3d touch does not exist does Does

⏹️ ▶️ John it impact your life at all? And I’m hoping the answer is no. And the second thing is, now pretend it

⏹️ ▶️ John does exist, did you find anything useful for it? And I think the answer is definitely going to be yes, for like,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if it’s just for two or three things. And then the final answer is, is

⏹️ ▶️ John every single place that’s on Apple you could develop a buried 3D touch useful? And that’s definitely no. Like even Apple, even

⏹️ ▶️ John the stuff they demoed, I’m like, that’s a little bit too much pressing really hard into my phone screen, Apple. But,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, it’s like the, you know, 80-20 rule or whatever. People are all gonna use 20% of the functionality,

⏹️ ▶️ John but that’s not even the A20 rule. Anyway, everyone will use a different 20%. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I am optimistic about 3D Touch. I like the new little vibratey thing, the little Taptic Engine.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m a little bit scared at how much battery space that’s taking up, but I guess you get some space savings. Didn’t they say they did a shrink

⏹️ ▶️ John on the A9 in Apple parlance?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In not so many words, but yes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they shrunk the battery a little bit too. That’s what I’m saying, yeah, they shrunk, and they had to, like the Taptic Engine

⏹️ ▶️ John is gigantic. Yeah, and the screen is thicker. I’m excited by the Taptic engine.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m assuming the battery life will be similar because it’s an S generation, you get the benefits

⏹️ ▶️ John of everything else, using less power and having better parts and blah, blah, blah, so it’s probably break-even. We didn’t even mention that, by the way, the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, that they have this massive device with four speakers and they have all this room for battery,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they said, you know what, 10 hours, it’s the iPad rule of the law, the hard and fast iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John rule, but it’s gigantic, it’s 30, 10, I said 10 hours. What should we do with the rest of the space? I don’t know, add

⏹️ ▶️ John more speakers. Well, because, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, weight is the biggest problem there. You know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John like they…

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, is it a problem? Like, is it just make it as heavy as you want?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it’s already, yeah, it’s already heavier than the first iPad and it’s bigger. So, I mean, I already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think, yeah, I already think it’s gonna be, well, keep in mind, a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still want their iPad to be this thing they hold up in bed and hits them in the face when they fall

⏹️ ▶️ Marco asleep. Like it…

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, this is gonna do some damage. 13 inches coming down on you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. Like that’s why I really don’t think they could have added more weight. Believe me, I am all for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco adding battery life. But I also know that batteries are very heavy. And in the case of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPhone 6, I think it should have a bigger battery. In the case of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad Pro though, if it’s already that heavy with the battery it has, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think they can afford to put more in there.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can I hear 11 hours or 12? Anyway, I’m sure it’s fine. I don’t have problem with iPad battery life.

⏹️ ▶️ John 10 hours has always been an honest 10 hours. Not really when gaming, but it’s still like

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t ask it. I don’t ask my iPad to do the type of stuff I think I think you’re right about weight becoming

⏹️ ▶️ John a factor But like if anything is gonna be a gigantic thing you like this is it. This is the one This is the one that’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John be super heavy It already is super heavy make it super heavier the fact that they use that space for like baffles

⏹️ ▶️ John for the speakers to make them sound better I think it’s kind of a good Idea cuz that’s kind of a pro feature And if you are

⏹️ ▶️ John like I do all my television watching on my iPad And I do it all on my couch and on my bed

⏹️ ▶️ John But this is the one to get because the sound is going to be way better and the screen is going to be gorgeous. It has way too many pixels to show 1080

⏹️ ▶️ John video, but what do people care? Maybe you can do picture in picture and browse Twitter while you’re doing it, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Anyway, we got off on the iPhone 6 thing. I agree with you then on the 6, battery life.

⏹️ ▶️ John They didn’t say anything about it, did they? Don’t think so. They

⏹️ ▶️ John said it was the same. Yeah, I mean, like that’s what they’re going for. It will probably be same-ish. A

⏹️ ▶️ John lot of friends have been asking me, hey, is this iPhone 6 a good phone to get? And especially

⏹️ ▶️ John people upgrading from like fives and stuff. It’s like, yeah, like it’s you know, the S generation is usually great to get.

⏹️ ▶️ John If you haven’t had a phone with Touch ID, Touch ID is awesome. You should totally get it. The S generation

⏹️ ▶️ John is usually have fewer weirdnesses than the first one in terms of like they’ve made

⏹️ ▶️ John phones this size and shape before. But this one has more

⏹️ ▶️ John internal changes than usual. So I guess the battery is a question and maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John the Taptic engine is a question based on the wonkiness of the Taptic engine in the The initial

⏹️ ▶️ John watches sometimes now when I feel my taps on my wrist I’m like is that feeling lighter than it used to but I think I might just

⏹️ ▶️ John be imagining things.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Anyway, I

⏹️ ▶️ John have the same problem Yeah, we’re just getting tap numbness on our wrists

⏹️ ▶️ John The camera is a little bit better like it has the 3d touch. This seems like a really great phone to me

⏹️ ▶️ John the only reservations I have are I guess battery life

⏹️ ▶️ John and then I guess maybe 3D Touch could go horribly wrong and be accidentally activated all the time

⏹️ ▶️ John and make you hate the phone. But that’s about the only bad things I can even worry about in the slightest

⏹️ ▶️ John about this phone. Otherwise, it just seems like a really good phone to me. And actually, this is my first time, guys, my first time

⏹️ ▶️ John feeling bad that now I don’t have the good iPhone. And I felt it. I totally felt it. I’m like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is what everyone’s been talking about. This sucks. Because I want one. I want to do all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this stuff. Because they never updated the iPod Touch. You never had to worry about that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. When they did, I just bought it. I always just bought it, right? But I looked at this, and I’m like,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, I shouldn’t buy this. I’ll just wait for the 7.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But you can have one now for starting at $27 a month or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think that all that deal, they should, by the way, Casey, to talk you out of doing this deal, I’m pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John sure that deal is a worse deal than just buying yourself a new phone every year. I think it’s just like

⏹️ ▶️ John a sophisticated way to loan money and pay interest. I just looked at it for two seconds, but I think that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. I haven’t done the spreadsheets or anything. Um, I think that’s right. I think you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey stand to make a little bit of money, so to speak, if you were going to get Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey care and going to upgrade annually, then you may shave a few dollars, you know, a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little bit of money.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know about that. I think I saw it. I saw a bank’s name associated with it. So it makes me

⏹️ ▶️ John think that it’s a people for people who have cashflow problems. It’s a way to like, it’s just, it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ John alone. Like we will give you make these payments. There is some interest. It is more expensive in the long

⏹️ ▶️ John run than paying for it all up front. But if you don’t have the cash to pay for it all up front and break your contract or whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John do this. Someone seems like someone’s making money off it. It does not seem like something that would be done out of the goodness

⏹️ ▶️ John of anyone’s heart to let you get a new phone every year for less money. It’s got to be the same money or more money.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s a good idea. People have cash flow problems and they want to have a new phone every year or even

⏹️ ▶️ John just for convenience for people who have plenty of money, Like the groovers of the world who just are gonna get a phone

⏹️ ▶️ John every year and don’t want to have to think about it. But for me, what I thought about is, what if I really

⏹️ ▶️ John like the 7S and the 8 comes out and I don’t like it? Then like, you don’t have to get the 8, I can keep going through

⏹️ ▶️ John the thing, but I just feel like I’m on a program. I would stay away from it and just, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John reserve the right to keep a phone for like four years if I really hate a certain round of iPhones. But

⏹️ ▶️ John again, I say this just being someone who was sad that my phone now sucks because it’s not a success.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, isn’t that terrible? So you’re not going to get yourself a 6S?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, I’m not going to. My Mac is eight years old for crying out loud. I’m pretty good. Not fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John What I use is the promise of the as yet undefined, non-existent 7. I have

⏹️ ▶️ John no idea what the 7’s going to be like, but it could be amazing, and that will keep me. The fantasy of the 7. Yeah, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to want that next year. Well, I’m going to get the 7. My wife will get the 6S. I won’t

⏹️ ▶️ John get it, so it’ll be fine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m actually I’m as much as I as I’ve ragged on it. I actually am looking forward to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Sorry 3d touch. I was gonna say force touch did Apple just realize that’s a creepy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco name and just stop using it

⏹️ ▶️ John CFED said force touch in the the keynote So as I was probably been forced touch until like the marketing

⏹️ ▶️ John people decided three weeks ago that it was gonna be 3d touch And so Federighi and everyone else at Apple keeps calling it force

⏹️ ▶️ John touch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well for its force touch is always a terrible creepy name But anyway, so you know whatever we’re calling those shortcuts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 3d touch whatever there I’m looking forward to that as a user because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know a that cuts down on having to reach for edges and corners which makes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco larger phones more usable Including both the six and the six plus for people whose hands are normally sized

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m looking forward to that Just as a user just like you know let me try these things and of course as a developer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think you know usually every developer, myself

⏹️ ▶️ Marco included, rationalizes hardware purchases unnecessarily by saying, well I need this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for testing so I can make my app better. And you know, sometimes that’s true. A lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of times it’s not. I think in this case that actually might be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco more true than usual just because if this 3D Touch thing takes off, which it probably will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it’s a really convenient shortcut on the most frequently used computer most of us use, so if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it takes off and it doesn’t suck the way John you know you said it you know it could theoretically flake out and be unreliable but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it’s good and and if it works I think it’s gonna be a pretty big deal for app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco design and so I think developers should should be paying attention more than usual for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for an iPhone release to this but we’re probably all gonna buy it anyway.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh that’s one question I didn’t see maybe I didn’t pay enough attention. Does the iPad Pro

⏹️ ▶️ John have 3D touch and if not why not? I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John it does. They I didn’t mention that at all. I mean, it’s just like the stylus, the pressure sensitivity

⏹️ ▶️ John is in the stylus, right? It’s not in the screen. Yes. That’s my understanding. But on the phone, the pressure sensitivity

⏹️ ▶️ John seems to be in the screen. So maybe the iPad Pro just doesn’t have the hardware for it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it seems like it is not there at all. But anyway, doesn’t really matter.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, they can achieve it through the pen anyway. And you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John one thing- But

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t achieve it through your finger though, is what I’m getting at. If you buy an iPad Pro and you press really hard on an icon

⏹️ ▶️ John on your home screen on your iPad Pro, nothing happens, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, that’s a good question. Yeah, because if you get used to that, it’s like that one year where they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had Touch ID on the phone, but they didn’t have it on the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ John yet. Yeah, and you just kept resting your finger on these little concave home buttons and nothing would

⏹️ ▶️ John happen. You’re like, this thing is broken. Yeah, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once you get accustomed to that on one iOS device, yeah, if you can’t do it on the other one, that’s a problem.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, well, hey, next year, they gotta make all the people buy a new iPad Pro every year,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just the same way they buy a new MacBook every year for the same price? I don’t know, we’ll find out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so, I don’t know, it’ll be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I am a little disappointed also.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I tweeted about this earlier. I’m a little, we didn’t even get really a chance to talk about the keyboard case much,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I am disappointed that it seems like there’s nowhere to put

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Apple Pencil anywhere in the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John or in the case. I’ll show you

⏹️ ▶️ John where you can put it. Oh, wow. To quote that Steve Jobs thing that maybe I just imagined, I still

⏹️ ▶️ John always think about what should I do with this? I’ll show you what you can do with it. Oh Man,

⏹️ ▶️ John you just just plug it into the lighting board. It’s super convenient

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It’s out

⏹️ ▶️ John on this tiny little metal thing. It’s easy to break off and stabs you in the belly button. That’s gonna yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thank God it has allegedly very good battery life and charges very quickly because that is a recipe for just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco breaking those things off everywhere

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, or just it’s another recipe for people to make artisanal handcrafted wood carved

⏹️ ▶️ John to like from driftwood found on a beach holster is for your pen that it has a lightning connector built in

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’ll be kickstarter for it in 10 minutes don’t worry yeah they’re gonna sell a lot of those pens

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a pencil not a pen sorry pencil

⏹️ ▶️ Casey concentrate we’re on the phone now what are we talking about oh yeah good grief you too

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John it’s been a long shit

⏹️ ▶️ John they just added an s in a box

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey anyway it seems like something

⏹️ ▶️ John that you want to talk about about phone Casey?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey They are moving to 4k video and that’s kind of exciting and also

⏹️ ▶️ Casey scary since it’s still being sold in 16 gigs.

⏹️ ▶️ John If someone should do the math and say after you have the OS and all the standard apps installed how much

⏹️ ▶️ John 4k video can you record before the thing fills up?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It depends on the bitrate but I can tell you it’s probably on the order of about 10

⏹️ ▶️ Casey minutes. I thought somebody did the math and said 30 but that wasn’t inclusive of the OS. Also, since I’m talking real-time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey follow-up, it is a sapphire crystal lens cover, as per the specs page.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Nice.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco All

⏹️ ▶️ John right, so nevermind that person.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco There you go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, and yeah, 4K video is huge. I mean, the fact is, like, you can look at the entire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rest of their lineup, where, like, the iPhone, their flagship product that makes them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the most money, has the stingiest storage pricing, and not the lowest prices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to start, by the way. Like, you know, this is still like a $600 device. the stingiest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco storage out of the whole lineup. And there is no other explanation

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for this. I heard, I was talking to a friend of the show, Rene Ritchie, he just wrote an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco article about this. We’ll have to find it, link it in the show notes, of why are they still, or why might they still use 1664, 128?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And there’s some kind of a difference in RAM types, in the flash RAM type

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s available for one of them’s cheap, one of them’s expensive, and it’s not available in these capacities or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that that that could be a reason you know with the iPhone they have to do things in such large volume

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Compared to the other products.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh the easy the easy reason is because the six did that’s the answer Why does the success do it because six it and then the

⏹️ ▶️ John then you ask why did the six do it? And then you can get into the RAM types and the sizes and all other stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s a shame either way I could in the rancor thing like it’s not our problem It’s Apple’s job

⏹️ ▶️ John to figure out how the hell to make products that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco aren’t crappy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John right well And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they sell lots of 32 gig flash products that very cheap prices So it is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they can’t do it. And I think the real reason here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is just because they know that it drives up the average selling price of their most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco profitable, most successful product. That has to be the answer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John You know? Do

⏹️ ▶️ John they know that though? Because they never break that down for

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco us.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like we assume it does, like with the whole anchoring and it’s like, well, I don’t want the small one, I don’t want the big one, I want the middle one, but the

⏹️ ▶️ John middle one, you know? Like the whole anchoring thing is it’s surely a thing. Apple probably does know, but I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John we can know unless maybe again, Horace knows, because he does some crazy algebra to solve a simultaneous

⏹️ ▶️ John series of equations to figure out exactly how many 16s. But like, I don’t know what the mix is. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John the 16 just seems like I want an iPhone and I want to get out, I want the cheapest iPhone possible. It used

⏹️ ▶️ John to be, you guys are Mac users in the days when, or even iPhone users,

⏹️ ▶️ John the best selling product in any Apple product line used to be the most expensive one. It’s kind of like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John remember when like, the Phantom Menace trailer was downloaded, Apple was like. And most people downloaded the

⏹️ ▶️ John biggest version of the trailer. Like, well, no duh. Like, Star Wars fans, given

⏹️ ▶️ John a choice of what size would you like to see the trailer for this new Star Wars movie you’ve been waiting your whole life for,

⏹️ ▶️ John the biggest is the answer. And so it used to be, what’s the best selling Apple laptop? The most

⏹️ ▶️ John expensive model, not counting the 17. This was pre 17. But that changed many years ago when Apple became

⏹️ ▶️ John more of a mass market thing. And now I don’t know if that’s the case. Maybe it It still is, like remember it used to be like, well the

⏹️ ▶️ John 5S is obviously the best selling phone. But that doesn’t get into capacities. Is

⏹️ ▶️ John the 16, are people like, I really want an iPhone 6 and the cheapest way I can get it is a 16? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I worry that that size is sucking people in because they really want the

⏹️ ▶️ John new iPhone and that’s the cheapest way they can get it. And that’s just not a good product, I feel like. App thinning

⏹️ ▶️ John aside, on-demand resources aside, that product gives a persistently bad

⏹️ ▶️ John experience in ways that are super frustrating to regular people. 16 gigs is not appropriate.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I couldn’t agree more. And I feel, this is all anecdotal, but I feel like more and more

⏹️ ▶️ Casey regular people that I know have lamented to me just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in general, or because I’m that Apple guy they know, about how Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has written terrible software because they can’t upgrade their OS and their phone is always

⏹️ ▶️ Casey full and everything’s always broken and it’s all Apple’s fault. And explaining to them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that they bought a cheap phone doesn’t usually end well, so.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it is Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John here’s the thing. Like, every phone is going to run out of space eventually if you fill it with stuff. Like, but we know the failure

⏹️ ▶️ John mode is so bad and we know regular people have no idea what to do. Like, and the iCloud thing is another example of

⏹️ ▶️ John that. This is the dialogue box keeps coming up telling me I can’t back up. Because like, all those failure modes are really bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John You just got to try to find a sweet spot where most people fit within it. And 16 is not, 16 is just too low. I

⏹️ ▶️ John mean, they keep making these like the 4K video, the size of the pictures, and now your still pictures are also

⏹️ ▶️ John videos. Forget it, like 16 gigs, just, it’s terrible. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible. I understand why they were probably kind of stuck with it with the six. And I kind of understand

⏹️ ▶️ John that the RAM thing too, because if they’re making the battery smaller, that’s not the time to add more RAM.

⏹️ ▶️ John They really need to fix this in the seven. I really hope that I’m super excited about the iPad Pro having

⏹️ ▶️ John four gigs. Like that shows that maybe someone, No, because they didn’t have to. Like, I think you’d maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John get away with it with two gigs, you know, but like four gigs after the iPad Air 2 had two,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a positive trend. I really hope they sorted out with it. I know we’re mixing RAM and memory kind of like,

⏹️ ▶️ John who was it did that in the keynote, Phil Schiller or somebody? RAM and storage. But anyway, on both

⏹️ ▶️ John those fronts, they’ve both been problematic for different reasons. 16 gigs,

⏹️ ▶️ John friends don’t let friends buy the 16 gig iPhone 6s.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey They should have

⏹️ ▶️ John like a fund, just a giant pool or tech nerds who will lose sleep if people

⏹️ ▶️ John they know have 16 gig phones, just put money in a giant pot. And every time someone goes to an Apple store and buys a 16 gig

⏹️ ▶️ John Sys S, the Apple person will say, oh, and by the way, even though you’ve chosen the 16 gig model and we’re about to give

⏹️ ▶️ John me your credit card, I can pull money out of this giant jar and give you the 32 because no one should own the 16.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so the only other thing that I thought was, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I thought at this hour of the night was really interesting about the six S’s,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is this live, what do they call them, live photos? The

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Harry Potter photos.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, the Harry Potter photos. I can’t decide if this is freaking brilliant or the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cheesiest animated emoji thing that I’ve seen since

⏹️ ▶️ Casey animated emoji.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I think it’s nice.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, I found this too, I find myself, not regarding how many pictures I’ve taken of my

⏹️ ▶️ John kids, but wishing I had more video. Video just seems more onerous to me, And this is a nice sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John compromise that like I would use this feature if I had it because I like to have a little Bit of

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, I like to see them in motion and hear what their squeaky little voices sound like, you know I have video I

⏹️ ▶️ John have plenty of video, but I feel like I wish I had more video And I think I’ve got them photographically covered

⏹️ ▶️ John But I wish I had more video and if this is a way to get more people to take more video You just need a few seconds to like what

⏹️ ▶️ John was your kid like when he or she was five or two or seven?

⏹️ ▶️ John And this gives enough of a flavor of it. I feel like especially since there’s sound Involved in it. I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John you take every picture like this, especially if you have a 16 gig phone, but it’s cute I don’t I don’t like the fact that

⏹️ ▶️ John you have to like Press hard and it goes all blurry and comes back in. I don’t like that whole interaction

⏹️ ▶️ John for doing this Yes, I agree, but I like the idea that it you know takes video

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s one of the fun things you can do and you have a really fast processor in your phone, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they they said a couple of times I’m pretty sure this is the case that those are 12 megapixel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco videos which is higher resolution than 4k so they’re actually like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that little video clip you’re getting there is better than what you can get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John in

⏹️ ▶️ John 4k that’s a feature that they on actual expensive dedicated cameras for a long time it was

⏹️ ▶️ John you know a high-end feature to be like and while you’re shooting video you can shoot stills in the middle of the video

⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s not you know the phones have crappy processors or whatever but at a certain point even the crappy processors and dedicated

⏹️ ▶️ John phones were fast enough and surely the A9 is plenty fast enough to do this for limited amounts of time, blah,

⏹️ ▶️ John blah, blah. So it’s perfect for this feature. Like they’ve got the camera, they’ve got the capacity, they’re not,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not like it’s taking like, oh, then your photo is going to be like 720p or whatever, or even 4k,

⏹️ ▶️ John full res the whole time, but for a short period of time. I think it’s, I think it’s cute.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I honestly, before the event, based on just the rumors we had heard, I was not that excited about the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 6S and I was actually thinking about not getting one for the first time. It would be the first iPhone I’ve ever skipped.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It’s illusional.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John but.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I also am not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to buy a watch. Right, exactly. And you’re not gonna buy an Apple TV or an iPad Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey One of those I think will be true.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John not sure which

⏹️ ▶️ John one. I think Casey’s not gonna buy an iPad Pro. I’m not even sure if I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna buy one. You’re probably gonna buy a Mini 4. That is very, very likely. Isn’t it weird, by the way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that this is the first year where the 10-inch sized iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco did not get an update and also didn’t get a price drop. It did get a price drop, didn’t it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, the Air 2 is the same as last year. Is it? And it’s still the same price.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, maybe they already gave it. Anyway, the Air 2 was so over-specced when it was introduced that it has more headroom.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s interesting that we’re now back to the point where we were when the Retina

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mini was first launched, Casey’s beloved Retina Pad Mini. We’re back to the point now where the only difference between the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mini and the big one is size and $100.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s as it should be, I feel like, you know, and the same thing, like I think it’s appropriate for the 6S to have two gigs

⏹️ ▶️ John of RAM, and I think if that’s true, this is all, everything’s coming up millhouse. Even the color,

⏹️ ▶️ John we’re like, oh, you know, it was gonna be pink, and look at these pink screenshots, so it’s not gonna be pink. Well, we’re right

⏹️ ▶️ John and wrong. It’s not pink, it’s rose gold, but the rose gold looks pink.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, so what the

⏹️ ▶️ John hell to make

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that? But trying to wrap it up, based on what we’ve seen today, what are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you guys planning on buying out of these products? Casey?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am pretty sure that I’m going to be getting a new RetinaPad Mini.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I might try to hold on until I can play with an iPad Pro just so I know that I’m making

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the right decision, but I will be stunned if I decide, no, no, no, I want a 13-inch iPad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I absolutely will be getting, Aaron and I, both a 6S. We are

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not crazy people, so we are not part of the plus club. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m 50-50 on the Apple TV. Sitting here now, I’m going to say no, which means yes, I just haven’t realized it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m definitely getting the Apple TV, 100%. The iPad Pro, I can

⏹️ ▶️ John see myself getting it. I really have to try it and see. What I really,

⏹️ ▶️ John again, I’m totally going home for the iPad Pro. I want this product to exist. I’m just not sure I’m going to be the one to buy

⏹️ ▶️ John it. I would love every single feature on that iPad Pro in an iPad Air 2 size device with

⏹️ ▶️ John a thicker border around the screen for me to grab with my big fat thumbs.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey But that product doesn’t exist, so I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John have to evaluate the iPad Pro. I might get it, because my iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ John iPad 3, it’s getting a little long to do it these days. I do a lot more on my phone because it’s just so much

⏹️ ▶️ John faster. So I will definitely check it out. No new watches

⏹️ ▶️ John for me, no success for me. my wife will probably get a 6S.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I will be buying a new Apple TV. Tiff and I are both

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gonna get the 6S. And the iPad, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean, I think I’m gonna skip it. It looks really interesting for people who aren’t me.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it is a lot of money. I think if I’m going to have a small

⏹️ ▶️ Marco device with a medium amount of battery life that has a crappy keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s really portable, I think I’d get another MacBook One. I think that would fit me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better because I really am more of a Mac person than an iOS person for getting quote work done.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The kind of stuff I do really is better on a Mac. Even a small slow one with a bad keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’d rather have that I think than an iPad. So. Fair enough.

⏹️ ▶️ John I forgot to crush Casey’s Plex streams and I realized maybe I don’t need to crush them. But what I was gonna crush them was like, I

⏹️ ▶️ John was assuming that you would wanna store the video on there and apps can’t have local storage. But if you just use it as a client and all the video

⏹️ ▶️ John was on your Synology you just were transcoding on the Apple TV? Maybe it won’t crush

⏹️ ▶️ John your dreams.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we’ll see. I mean, my assumption is that the Plex stuff would work

⏹️ ▶️ Casey basically as it is now, which is I just stream from my Synology and that’s all I need. But we’ll see what

⏹️ ▶️ Casey happens.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Casper, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fracture. And don’t forget to check out the St. Jude donation that we talked about earlier for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco September being Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors and that and we will see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin, cuz

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental. It was accidental.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him, Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes

⏹️ ▶️ John at And if you’re into Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them At

⏹️ ▶️ Casey C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A-N-T Marco Armin

⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John accidental They didn’t mean to

⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental Tech Podcasts So long

Post-show: First!

⏹️ ▶️ John Who did I like who did it firster? Because I think that that covers a lot of the whole I mean I didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John hear a lot of this complaining maybe because i’m not traveling these circles, but like Like I saw someone post

⏹️ ▶️ John like an old comic when the surface came out of showing like yeah The new ipad with the keyboard cover like guys keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John covers existed for the ipad like, you know, it’s not Can you believe apple did a thing

⏹️ ▶️ John like this? Yep. I can totally believe it. Everybody can believe it. It is not a surprise And

⏹️ ▶️ John it is not and like if anyone is out there complaining like was Apple be like we are the first people to make

⏹️ ▶️ John it No, they didn’t they didn’t say that at all They didn’t even do their normal thing of like we think this is the best one ever and past ones

⏹️ ▶️ John and other ones people made It crappy. They didn’t even say that. They’re just like

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, they said that they did they did They did not say this is the first time you’ve seen it But they did say

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is the best one you’ve ever seen or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I promise I

⏹️ ▶️ John Best the best thing they’ve ever made anyway, whatever I just it seemed like that was not a big angle and I if people

⏹️ ▶️ John are angry about it I didn’t see them in my feet or people really getting angry like people have made pens before apples like making

⏹️ ▶️ John it like they invented The pen no they weren’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I think the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing is it was just so egregious and so obvious

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But it’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John egregious like this again like who did it first or the freaking Newton like for crying out loud Has

⏹️ ▶️ John another company it’s the same company. It was Apple Apple did that like Well, I guess,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s like take, take touch ID as a great counter example. Touch ID was taking the same

⏹️ ▶️ Casey idea and making it better or better. Or if you will,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not, might not even be better. It’s just the keyboard cover. A lot of decks have been making them for years. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey no, no, that’s my point. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re making my point, which is touch ID was like, remember the little swipey thing, like I had

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John on my keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it was like that, but they made it better. Whereas what they’ve done looks like a straight

⏹️ ▶️ Casey rip of the surface key,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it’s not a strip a rip. It’s like this is the time when they’re going to add these features to their product. It’s not as if they didn’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John these features were possible before. They weren’t not adding them because they weren’t possible. Apple’s had this stylus patents going. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John how many years ago have we seen stylus patents? Like it just it’s just like when is the right time to do

⏹️ ▶️ John this? It’s not like we can’t figure out how to do it or whatever. It’s them deciding what is the appropriate

⏹️ ▶️ John feature set for our products and doing it. So, you know, I didn’t see that complaining, but a little tiny bit

⏹️ ▶️ John bubbled up like, seriously, is this what people are on about? Because I didn’t get that vibe at all from the keynote. It was more it was more like iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John eight where like, some people couldn’t get over the fact that Android had these features, when everyone else is like, yeah, but now

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS has them and we like iOS. So we’re excited that we get them. And we’ve been saying for years, they should have them. And they should be like, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re copying Android. That I think is even more of a case of like Android, you know, or palm

⏹️ ▶️ John OS or web OS for crying out loud had a lot of these ideas with the card metaphor and the multi test. Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just ridiculous. The whole the whole idea of worrying about who did something first, in these

⏹️ ▶️ John basic functional like I can’t make a computer with a mouse someone already did that no just put a mouse on it’s fine